From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Jul 25 04:02:23 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id EAA21299 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 04:02:23 -0700 Received: from prinny.pavilion.co.uk (prinny.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.34]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id EAA21289 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 04:02:20 -0700 Received: from line0c.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk (line0c.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.109]) by prinny.pavilion.co.uk (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA00968 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:07:43 +0100 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:07:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199507251107.MAA00968@prinny.pavilion.co.uk> X-Sender: aledm@mailhost.pavilion.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org From: aledm@pavilion.co.uk (Aled Morris) Subject: What Platform? X-Mailer: Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk I've just subscribed to this list (plaforms) but there doesn't seem to be much traffic, so I thought I'd generate some. What is the perceived wisdom on PowerPC vs. Alpha (in terms of FreeBSD porting, obviously). Which is most likely to be easiest? Most useful? In progress? DEC are almost giving away Alpha systems, and they do have a mean CPU. Will they survive? On the other hand, the Motorola PowerPC platform (PCI bus etc.) isn't expensive, and would make a fine BSD based server platform. Is the Motorola system "standard", or will future PowerPC systems follow some Apple or IBM design, rendering a Motorola style system obsolete? My interest is from the point of view of an Internet Service Provider looking for scalable, manageable platforms for Internet services (WWW, mail processing, etc.) Getting a 10% CPU performance boost from Intel every six months isn't enough. My biggest worry is that by choosing FreeBSD over Sun (say) I'm losing out on that scalability (want to support more users on your SS20? Easy, add more CPUs. Full? Go to a 1000). Comments? Aled -- telephone +44 973 207987 From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Jul 25 05:19:53 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id FAA23352 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:19:53 -0700 Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id FAA23346 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:19:51 -0700 Received: from corbin.Root.COM (corbin [198.145.90.18]) by Root.COM (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id FAA05456; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:19:15 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by corbin.Root.COM (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id FAA00662; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:20:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199507251220.FAA00662@corbin.Root.COM> To: aledm@pavilion.co.uk (Aled Morris) cc: freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What Platform? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 95 12:07:43 BST." <199507251107.MAA00968@prinny.pavilion.co.uk> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:20:23 -0700 Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >What is the perceived wisdom on PowerPC vs. Alpha (in terms of >FreeBSD porting, obviously). > >Which is most likely to be easiest? Most useful? In progress? Since noone has yet done a BSD port for the PowerPC, it would be difficult to say which is easier. There is a port to the Alpha-PC in its infancy, but don't expect to see anything about this until the end of the year at the earliest. >DEC are almost giving away Alpha systems, and they do have a mean >CPU. Will they survive? DEC is doing quite well with the Alpha and I expect it will continue to gain momentum. >On the other hand, the Motorola PowerPC platform (PCI bus etc.) isn't >expensive, and would make a fine BSD based server platform. Is the >Motorola system "standard", or will future PowerPC systems follow some >Apple or IBM design, rendering a Motorola style system obsolete? You can get Apple PowerPC's, but I've not heard of any IBM-style available yet...and I haven't heard of the "Motorola" design. I admit to not knowing a whole lot about the PowerPC in general. I honestly think that the Alpha has more potential than the PowerPC given the general market response to both. >My interest is from the point of view of an Internet Service Provider >looking for scalable, manageable platforms for Internet services (WWW, >mail processing, etc.) Getting a 10% CPU performance boost from Intel >every six months isn't enough. Actually it's a lot more than that. The speed of Intel CPUs is supposedly doubling every 18 months. ...but I agree that Intel is consistently behind the performance curve compared to the Alpha or PowerPC. > My biggest worry is that by choosing >FreeBSD over Sun (say) I'm losing out on that scalability (want to >support more users on your SS20? Easy, add more CPUs. Full? Go to >a 1000). We're working on SMP and have a primitive SMP kernel already working. This work will continue - with the primary goal being the support of 4 processor P6 machines. The problem with the Sun stuff is that it is so expensive. I think you'll find that the PC stuff, which is perhaps not as nice in many ways, is still much cheaper in terms of dollars/MIP than Sun. I expect this to continue well into the future. -DG From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Jul 25 05:32:05 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id FAA23566 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:32:05 -0700 Received: from server.netcraft.co.uk (server.netcraft.co.uk [194.72.238.2]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id FAA23560 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:32:04 -0700 Received: (from paul@localhost) by server.netcraft.co.uk (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA09948; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:30:41 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199507251230.NAA09948@server.netcraft.co.uk> Subject: Re: What Platform? To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:30:40 +0100 (BST) Cc: aledm@pavilion.co.uk, freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199507251220.FAA00662@corbin.Root.COM> from "David Greenman" at Jul 25, 95 05:20:23 am Reply-to: paul@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 497 Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to David Greenman who said > > Since noone has yet done a BSD port for the PowerPC, it would be difficult > to say which is easier. There is a port to the Alpha-PC in its infancy, but > don't expect to see anything about this until the end of the year at the > earliest. Who's working on this? -- Paul Richards, Bluebird Computer Systems. FreeBSD core team member. Internet: paul@FreeBSD.org, http://www.freebsd.org/~paul Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 1222 457651 (home) From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Jul 25 05:45:55 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id FAA23743 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:45:55 -0700 Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id FAA23737 ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:45:53 -0700 Received: from corbin.Root.COM (corbin [198.145.90.18]) by Root.COM (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id FAA05502; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:45:21 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by corbin.Root.COM (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id FAA01008; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:46:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199507251246.FAA01008@corbin.Root.COM> To: paul@freebsd.org cc: aledm@pavilion.co.uk, freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What Platform? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 95 13:30:40 BST." <199507251230.NAA09948@server.netcraft.co.uk> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 05:46:29 -0700 Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >In reply to David Greenman who said >> >> Since noone has yet done a BSD port for the PowerPC, it would be difficult >> to say which is easier. There is a port to the Alpha-PC in its infancy, but >> don't expect to see anything about this until the end of the year at the >> earliest. > >Who's working on this? Jeff Hsu. -DG From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Jul 25 09:16:16 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id JAA01276 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:16:16 -0700 Received: from prinny.pavilion.co.uk (prinny.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.34]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA01259 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:16:10 -0700 Received: from line0c.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk (line08.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.105]) by prinny.pavilion.co.uk (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA16714 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 17:21:30 +0100 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 17:21:30 +0100 Message-Id: <199507251621.RAA16714@prinny.pavilion.co.uk> X-Sender: aledm@mailhost.pavilion.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org From: aledm@pavilion.co.uk (Aled Morris) Subject: Re: What Platform? X-Mailer: Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk At 11:38 AM 25/7/95, Chuck Robey wrote: >> DEC are almost giving away Alpha systems, and they do have a mean >> CPU. Will they survive? > >That they are. Academic prices are (I understand) about 3500 for a >system with monitor, drive and network. That's actually within shooting >range for a single individual, albeit a somewhat warped one. Much less than that for a Multia. I asked this question before, but was told there is a MMU problem with the Multia that prevents it from working with Unix's virtual memory system. I was told at the time that DEC offers development systems (motherboards) for < US$1000(?) which you could swap into a PC chassis and use standard PCI peripherals, SCSI disks etc. Anyone with exact details? Aled -- telephone +44 973 207987 From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Jul 25 09:49:06 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id JAA02005 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:49:06 -0700 Received: from inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com [16.1.0.22]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA01998 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:49:02 -0700 Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/24Feb95) id AA17301; Tue, 25 Jul 95 09:42:11 -0700 Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA12136; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:42:08 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA25676; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:49:42 GMT Message-Id: <199507251249.MAA25676@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: aledm@pavilion.co.uk (Aled Morris) Cc: freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What Platform? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 1995 17:21:30 +0100." <199507251621.RAA16714@prinny.pavilion.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5omega 10/6/94 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:49:40 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > At 11:38 AM 25/7/95, Chuck Robey wrote: > >> DEC are almost giving away Alpha systems, and they do have a mean > >> CPU. Will they survive? > > > >That they are. Academic prices are (I understand) about 3500 for a > >system with monitor, drive and network. That's actually within shooting > >range for a single individual, albeit a somewhat warped one. > > Much less than that for a Multia. > > I asked this question before, but was told there is a MMU problem with > the Multia that prevents it from working with Unix's virtual memory > system. Nope. The problem with the multia is that only ships with the Windows NT PALcode. There is no OpenVMS or OSF/1 PALcode support. That means you need to map the UNIX MMU semantics onto the NT PALcode. It could be done but the OSF/1 PALcode is a much better match. > I was told at the time that DEC offers development systems (motherboards) > for < US$1000(?) which you could swap into a PC chassis and use standard PCI > peripherals, SCSI disks etc. > > Anyone with exact details? There are various AT sized motherboards which one can buy with Alpha and a PCI/ISA bus. Check out http://www.digital.com/info/pr-news/94111402PR.txt.html http://www.digital.com/info/pr-news/94051701PN.txt.html http://www.digital.com/info/pr-news/94060401PN.txt.html One DEC part number to check out is the EBP20-BA ($1170) which uses a lowend Alpha. Check out the http://www.digital.com and http://www.services.digital.com sites for more information. From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Jul 25 15:39:19 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id PAA15923 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:39:19 -0700 Received: from hutcs.cs.hut.fi (hutcs.cs.hut.fi [130.233.192.2]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA15917 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:39:17 -0700 Received: from shadows.cs.hut.fi by hutcs.cs.hut.fi with SMTP id AA11728 (5.65c8/HUTCS-S 1.4 for ); Wed, 26 Jul 1995 01:39:13 +0300 Received: (hsu@localhost) by shadows.cs.hut.fi (8.6.10/8.6.10) id BAA10064; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 01:39:17 +0300 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 01:39:17 +0300 Message-Id: <199507252239.BAA10064@shadows.cs.hut.fi> From: Heikki Suonsivu To: davidg@root.com Cc: freebsd-platforms@freefall.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: David Greenman's message of 25 Jul 1995 15:27:54 +0300 Subject: Re: What Platform? Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Otaniemi, Finland Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Since noone has yet done a BSD port for the PowerPC, it would be difficult to say which is easier. There is a port to the Alpha-PC in its infancy, but PReP looks like a standard random PCI PC motherboard. They just switched the CPU. That is, at least by a quick glance over the PReP manual. -- Heikki Suonsivu, T{ysikuu 10 C 83/02210 Espoo/FINLAND, hsu@cs.hut.fi home +358-0-8031121 work -4513377 fax -4555276 riippu SN From owner-freebsd-platforms Wed Jul 26 02:07:21 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id CAA11847 for platforms-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 02:07:21 -0700 Received: from prinny.pavilion.co.uk (prinny.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.34]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id CAA11840 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 02:07:15 -0700 Received: from line06.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk (line07.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.104]) by prinny.pavilion.co.uk (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA19701; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:12:36 +0100 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:12:36 +0100 Message-Id: <199507260912.KAA19701@prinny.pavilion.co.uk> X-Sender: aledm@mailhost.pavilion.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Heikki Suonsivu From: aledm@pavilion.co.uk (Aled Morris) Subject: Re: What Platform? Cc: freebsd-platforms@freefall.cdrom.com X-Mailer: Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 01:39 AM 26/7/95 +0300, Heikki Suonsivu wrote: >PReP looks like a standard random PCI PC motherboard. They just switched >the CPU. That is, at least by a quick glance over the PReP manual. Is that (PReP) a Motorola or IBM part? Aled -- telephone +44 973 207987 From owner-freebsd-platforms Wed Jul 26 02:08:26 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id CAA11904 for platforms-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 02:08:26 -0700 Received: from prinny.pavilion.co.uk (prinny.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.34]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id CAA11898 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 02:08:22 -0700 Received: from line06.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk (line07.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.104]) by prinny.pavilion.co.uk (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA19687; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:12:24 +0100 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:12:24 +0100 Message-Id: <199507260912.KAA19687@prinny.pavilion.co.uk> X-Sender: aledm@mailhost.pavilion.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Matt Thomas From: aledm@pavilion.co.uk (Aled Morris) Subject: Re: What Platform? Cc: freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk At 12:49 PM 25/7/95 +0000, Matt Thomas wrote: >> I asked this question before, but was told there is a MMU problem with >> the Multia that prevents it from working with Unix's virtual memory >> system. > >Nope. The problem with the multia is that only ships with the Windows >NT PALcode. There is no OpenVMS or OSF/1 PALcode support. That means >you need to map the UNIX MMU semantics onto the NT PALcode. It could >be done but the OSF/1 PALcode is a much better match. OK, sorry, I overstated the problem. I didn't really understand all this PALcode stuff :-( >There are various AT sized motherboards which one can buy with Alpha and >a PCI/ISA bus. Check out I will - thanks for the info. Bet you can't buy them (easily, cheaply) in the UK!!! :-( Aled -- telephone +44 973 207987 From owner-freebsd-platforms Thu Jul 27 07:55:39 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id HAA23659 for platforms-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 07:55:39 -0700 Received: from prinny.pavilion.co.uk (prinny.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.34]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id HAA23652 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 07:55:32 -0700 Received: from line03.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk (line15.gunn-du.pavilion.co.uk [193.131.160.118]) by prinny.pavilion.co.uk (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA26115; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:59:31 +0100 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:59:31 +0100 Message-Id: <199507271459.PAA26115@prinny.pavilion.co.uk> X-Sender: aledm@mailhost.pavilion.co.uk (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Matt Thomas From: aledm@pavilion.co.uk (Aled Morris) Subject: Re: What Platform? Cc: freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk At 12:49 PM 25/7/95 +0000, Matt Thomas wrote: >One DEC part number to check out is the EBP20-BA ($1170) which uses a >lowend Alpha. Well, just so you get a feel for what it's like out here in the sticks, I've been trying for two days now to get anyone to commit to being able to supply this product. Digital sell "exclusively" (i.e. except when they don't) through distributors in the UK, and giving these people the slightest hint that the product isn't an Intel PC is enough to make them hang up the phone :-( Only one distributor admitted that the part code existed ("but we can't supply it") and gave me a price - GBP780. Other reactions ranged from "we only do PCs" to "it doesn't exist - we called Digital and they told us you must have got the part code wrong". Eventually I have tapped into Digital's support centre, who concede it does exist but are reticent to supply it. They are going to give me a call back with ordering details. This board does have Unix PALcode, right? I have a terrible feeling that going this route is a mistake, I mean, if I can't even buy the product, what hope is there of getting any technical support for porting a Unix kernel to it will I get? Come back DEC Direct, all is forgiven! Now, what was the PowerPC motherboard part code... Aled -- telephone +44 973 207987