From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 11:15:02 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id LAA29756 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 11:15:02 -0800 Received: (from jkh@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id LAA29658; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 11:13:06 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 11:13:06 -0800 From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Message-Id: <199502261913.LAA29658@freefall.cdrom.com> To: hackers Subject: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? Cc: security Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You know the problem. You're sitting down at USENIX or your friend Bob's in Minnesota or some other gawdforsaken place and you have no way of knowing whether or not that password you just typed to log in to freefall was just sniffed by the entire undergraduate class of the local university (or their bored ISP). You can't set up a kerberos realm with everyone, so what you'd really just like to do is ensure that the endpoints are reasonably secure and encrypt everything going in between. A friend recerntly suggested a method for which my knowledge of the spelling may be incomplete, but I'll try: "Diffie-Hellman key exchange." Apparently you start out with a key pair on each end and then each raise eacy to the power of the other's public half and used the information derived to secure the link. Do any of you security weenies out there know what I'm talking about? Am I making any sense? Should I be locked up by the NSA for even suggesting this? Jordan From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 11:29:33 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id LAA00329 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 11:29:33 -0800 Received: from dns.netvision.net.il (root@dns.NetVision.net.il [194.90.1.5]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA00317; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 11:29:28 -0800 Received: from ugen.NetManage.co.il (ugen.netmanage.co.il [192.114.78.165]) by dns.netvision.net.il (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA04351; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:28:12 +0200 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 21:12:24 IST From: "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" Subject: RE: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: security@freefall.cdrom.com X-Mailer: Chameleon 4.00-Arm-25, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Do any of you security weenies out there know what I'm talking about? >Am I making any sense? Should I be locked up by the NSA for even suggesting >this? Good idea..i have done some experiments with public/private key encryption protocols on which knowing public key you can encode but can't decode back..very good solution to get rid of sniffing problemm... -- -=Ugen J.S.Antsilevich=- NetVision - Israeli Commercial Internet | Learning E-mail: ugen@NetVision.net.il | To Fly. [c] Phone : +972-4-550330 | From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 12:15:24 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id MAA02016 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 12:15:24 -0800 Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.20.4]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA02010; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 12:15:22 -0800 Received: by brasil.moneng.mei.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06755; Sun, 26 Feb 95 14:14:08 CST From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <9502262014.AA06755@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 14:14:07 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199502261913.LAA29658@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 26, 95 11:13:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4beta PL9] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1571 Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You know the problem. You're sitting down at USENIX or your friend Bob's > in Minnesota or some other gawdforsaken place and you have no way of knowing > whether or not that password you just typed to log in to freefall was just > sniffed by the entire undergraduate class of the local university (or their > bored ISP). You can't set up a kerberos realm with everyone, so what you'd > really just like to do is ensure that the endpoints are reasonably secure > and encrypt everything going in between. A friend recerntly suggested a > method for which my knowledge of the spelling may be incomplete, but > I'll try: "Diffie-Hellman key exchange." Apparently you start out with > a key pair on each end and then each raise eacy to the power of the other's > public half and used the information derived to secure the link. > > Do any of you security weenies out there know what I'm talking about? > Am I making any sense? Should I be locked up by the NSA for even suggesting > this? > > Jordan This could be worthwhile, if possible... I'm using Kerberos for this purpose now, and it's a tad exasperating because the primary reason I installed it was so I could get encrypted telnet (yes, it was a lotta hacking, rip the DES code out of Kerberos, toss it in eBones, build, hack on the usr/src/secure programs for the better part of a day, etc). ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 15:32:12 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id PAA11419 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 15:32:12 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA11319; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 15:28:48 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA16736 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:07:56 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA11989; 26 Feb 95 16:34:34 CST (Sun) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA11986; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 16:34:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199502262234.QAA11986@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Authentication-Warning: bonkers.taronga.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 95 11:13:06 PST." <199502261913.LAA29658@freefall.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.4.1 7/21/94 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 16:34:31 -0600 From: Peter da Silva Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk One half-baked answer. First, get SecureKey. The version I use, Hobbit's, is sitting on NMTI's anonymous FTP server smokey.neosoft.com in source, Alpha/OSF executable, and DOS executable. I'll ftp it over to freefall Mondey. It uses a challenge string/encrypted challenge response method to keep from passing passwords out to everyone. You don't get an encrypted session, but you don't need any special software or arrangements at the other end. A more complex answer is swIPe, which lets you run a complete encrypted IP session on top of an IP channel. This requires you have at least a secure site in the badguy's camp. From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 16:28:50 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id QAA13388 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 16:28:50 -0800 Received: from moondance.np.ac.sg (moondance.np.ac.sg [153.20.24.69]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA13376 for ; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 16:28:45 -0800 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by moondance.np.ac.sg (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA24870 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 08:18:38 +0800 Message-Id: <199502270018.IAA24870@moondance.np.ac.sg> Received: from titan.np.ac.sg(153.20.24.72) by moondance.np.ac.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma024867; Mon Feb 27 08:18:20 1995 Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 07:57:55 +0800 (SST) From: SysAdmin - Ng Pheng Siong Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, security@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199502261913.LAA29658@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 26, 95 11:13:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 1480 Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You know the problem. You're sitting down at USENIX or your friend Bob's > in Minnesota or some other gawdforsaken place and you have no way of knowing > whether or not that password you just typed to log in to freefall was just > sniffed by the entire undergraduate class of the local university (or their > bored ISP). You can't set up a kerberos realm with everyone, so what you'd > really just like to do is ensure that the endpoints are reasonably secure > and encrypt everything going in between. A friend recerntly suggested a > method for which my knowledge of the spelling may be incomplete, but > I'll try: "Diffie-Hellman key exchange." Apparently you start out with > a key pair on each end and then each raise eacy to the power of the other's > public half and used the information derived to secure the link. Correct spelling. ;) Check out David Safford's SRA (Secure RPC Authentication) telnet/ftp, which use D-H to exchange a key to encrypt your password with. There is a paper in one of the Usenix security symposiums. URL: ftp://net.tamu.edu/pub/security/TAMU Note that D-H key exchange is patented in the US (till 97?). Note 2: the telnet/ftp do not encrypt the entire session, just the password exchange. For that, you may want to check out swIPe. (I think swIPe may be in NetBSD, or has an implementation on it, or something like that.) - PS -- Ng Pheng Siong * lsys@np.ac.sg * ngps@np.ac.sg Computer Centre, Ngee Ann Polytechnic, Singapore From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 17:55:12 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id RAA16948 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:55:12 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA16926; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:54:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.cdrom.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Peter da Silva cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 95 16:34:31 CST." <199502262234.QAA11986@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:54:58 -0800 Message-ID: <16925.793850098@freefall.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > One half-baked answer. First, get SecureKey. The version I use, Hobbit's, is > sitting on NMTI's anonymous FTP server smokey.neosoft.com in source, Alpha/OS Sorry, but this still just doesn't do it for me. I will be doing other logins within that session, or often need to `su' to do system repair work. I need the session entirely encrypted from the first couple of handshakes. From all indications, this diffie-hellman thing is the way to go! Jordan From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 19:10:03 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id TAA21260 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 19:10:03 -0800 Received: from snarf.dorm.umd.edu (snarf.dorm.umd.edu [129.2.140.2]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id TAA21193; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 19:08:26 -0800 Received: by snarf.dorm.umd.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id WAA23644; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 22:07:30 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 22:07:29 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Grupenhoff X-Sender: kashmir@snarf.dorm.umd.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Peter da Silva , hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-Reply-To: <16925.793850098@freefall.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 26 Feb 1995, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Sorry, but this still just doesn't do it for me. I will be doing > other logins within that session, or often need to `su' to do system > repair work. I need the session entirely encrypted from the first > couple of handshakes. From all indications, this diffie-hellman thing > is the way to go! It still sounds like you only need your passwords protected. Wouldn't s/key be enough for this? The s/key hooks in 2.0 work very well for me. mike From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 19:37:20 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id TAA22621 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 19:37:20 -0800 Received: from xi.dorm.umd.edu (xi.dorm.umd.edu [129.2.140.12]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id TAA22556; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 19:35:07 -0800 Received: (from smpatel@localhost) by xi.dorm.umd.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) id WAA00264; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 22:34:22 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 22:34:22 -0500 (EST) From: Sujal Patel X-Sender: smpatel@xi.dorm.umd.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-Reply-To: <16925.793850098@freefall.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 26 Feb 1995, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Sorry, but this still just doesn't do it for me. I will be doing > other logins within that session, or often need to `su' to do system > repair work. I need the session entirely encrypted from the first > couple of handshakes. From all indications, this diffie-hellman thing > is the way to go! Well if you want a completely encrypted session-- It's not as easy as just diffie-hellman. Here is a short example of how Diffie-Hellman works (without any gory details): Site 1/2 have a COMMON 512 bit prime number Site 1 transmits a 512 bit number (derived from the prime) to Site 2 Site 2 transmits a 512 bit number (derived from the prime) to Site 1 Site 1/2 now generate a 512 bit "random string" which was derived from the prime, and the other sites information The string that Site 1 and 2 generate in the final step is the same for each site. Also, if you have seen the transmissions between the sites (and even if you know their original prime number), you cannot generate the "random string" that they are using. This is all fine but unfortuantly, this sample Diffie-Hellman exchanges takes a 486 five seconds, so it can't be used to encrypt the entire session. What you need to do now is to take that "random string" and use it as a DES key to encrypt the entire session. This would work very well, would be very secure, and could be implemented by hacking up telnet to support a new type of encryption. I implemented a variation of this a while ago, and I could dig it up if there is interest-- The only problem with this system is that both Diffie-Hellman and DES are export restricted by the government, and also the RSA library which most implementations of Diffie-Hellman use is under a really anal licence agreement. Sujal From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 20:48:10 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id UAA26229 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 20:48:10 -0800 Received: from po7.andrew.cmu.edu (PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.107]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id UAA26223; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 20:48:08 -0800 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA14562; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:47:19 -0500 Received: via switchmail; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:47:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcs12.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:46:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcs12.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mms.4.60.Jan.26.1995.18.43.47.sun4c.411.EzMail.Phred.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs12.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4c.411 via MS.5.6.pcs12.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4c_411; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:46:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:46:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Alex R.N. Wetmore" To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <16925.793850098@freefall.cdrom.com> References: <16925.793850098@freefall.cdrom.com> Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Excerpts from internet.computing.freebsd-hackers: 26-Feb-95 Re: key exchange for rlogin.. by "Jordan K. Hubbard"@free > Sorry, but this still just doesn't do it for me. I will be doing > other logins within that session, or often need to `su' to do system > repair work. I need the session entirely encrypted from the first > couple of handshakes. From all indications, this diffie-hellman thing > is the way to go! If skey is setup properly it will require that you use it for all authentication within the machine (su, ftpd, etc). The main problem with it is that you need to have a machine to run the challenge program on or you need to carry around precomputed challenges. alex From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 21:22:11 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id VAA28379 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:22:11 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA28196; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:20:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.cdrom.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Mike Grupenhoff cc: Peter da Silva , hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 95 22:07:29 EST." Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:20:34 -0800 Message-ID: <28195.793862434@freefall.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It still sounds like you only need your passwords protected. Wouldn't > s/key be enough for this? The s/key hooks in 2.0 work very well for me. I won't have control over all the sites I want to use. Encrypting my entire session gives me much more flexibility over what I can do during that session, and it means I only have to really have it set up on two reasonably secure hosts to buy a large measure of security for that "first hop" I've so little control over. I have considered S/key and the other currently available options. They're truly insufficient. Jordan From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 21:48:40 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id VAA29902 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:48:40 -0800 Received: from precipice.Shockwave.COM (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA29895; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:48:37 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.Shockwave.COM (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA02143; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:47:20 -0800 Message-Id: <199502270547.VAA02143@precipice.Shockwave.COM> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 1995 11:13:06 PST." <199502261913.LAA29658@freefall.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:47:20 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes, it's well known, (take this with 3 grains of salt, I am not an expert in D-H) but the base technology requires use of RSA which is patented and said patents are enforced stringently. That's why we use S/Key. From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? You know the problem. You're sitting down at USENIX or your friend Bob's in Minnesota or some other gawdforsaken place and you have no way of knowing whether or not that password you just typed to log in to freefall was just sniffed by the entire undergraduate class of the local university (or their bored ISP). You can't set up a kerberos realm with everyone, so what you'd really just like to do is ensure that the endpoints are reasonably secure and encrypt everything going in between. A friend recerntly suggested a method for which my knowledge of the spelling may be incomplete, but I'll try: "Diffie-Hellman key exchange." Apparently you start out with a key pair on each end and then each raise eacy to the power of the other's public half and used the information derived to secure the link. Do any of you security weenies out there know what I'm talking about? Am I making any sense? Should I be locked up by the NSA for even suggesting this? Jordan From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 21:56:42 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id VAA00415 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:56:42 -0800 Received: from precipice.Shockwave.COM (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA00402; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:56:36 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.Shockwave.COM (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA02364; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:55:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199502270555.VAA02364@precipice.Shockwave.COM> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: security@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/libexec/tftpd tftpd.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 1995 15:28:02 PST." <199502262328.PAA02820@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:55:17 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan, this is a dangerous change. Please back it out until you also fix the "../" test so that it checks for ".." anywhere in the path. Paul From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: cvs commit: src/libexec/tftpd tftpd.c jkh 95/02/26 15:28:01 Modified: libexec/tftpd tftpd.c Log: I think the security check to invalidate ALL write requests was just a litt >>le excessive, and violates the specification defined in the manpage to boot. From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 21:58:29 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id VAA00753 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:58:29 -0800 Received: from precipice.Shockwave.COM (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA00746; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:58:26 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.Shockwave.COM (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA02393; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:57:01 -0800 Message-Id: <199502270557.VAA02393@precipice.Shockwave.COM> To: Peter da Silva cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 1995 16:34:31 CST." <199502262234.QAA11986@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:57:01 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FreeBSD already has full support for S/Key. What's the difference between this and Hobbit's SecureKey? From: Peter da Silva Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? One half-baked answer. First, get SecureKey. The version I use, Hobbit's, is sitting on NMTI's anonymous FTP server smokey.neosoft.com in source, Alpha/OS >>F executable, and DOS executable. I'll ftp it over to freefall Mondey. It uses a challenge string/encrypted challenge response method to keep from passing passwords out to everyone. You don't get an encrypted session, but you don't need any special software or arrangements at the other end. A more complex answer is swIPe, which lets you run a complete encrypted IP session on top of an IP channel. This requires you have at least a secure site in the badguy's camp. From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 23:28:22 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id XAA05426 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:28:22 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA05385; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:27:59 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA20803 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:11:50 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA21580; 27 Feb 95 01:11:12 CST (Mon) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA21577; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:11:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199502270711.BAA21577@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Authentication-Warning: bonkers.taronga.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 95 17:54:58 PST." <16925.793850098@freefall.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.4.1 7/21/94 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:11:09 -0600 From: Peter da Silva Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sorry, but this still just doesn't do it for me. I will be doing > other logins within that session, or often need to `su' to do system > repair work. There's an skeylogin and an skeysu in there, so you can use skey for all your authentication needs. From owner-freebsd-security Sun Feb 26 23:37:54 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id XAA06456 for security-outgoing; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:37:54 -0800 Received: (from dima@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id XAA06375; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:37:28 -0800 Message-Id: <199502270737.XAA06375@freefall.cdrom.com> Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? To: peter@bonkers.taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:37:27 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199502270711.BAA21577@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Peter da Silva" at Feb 27, 95 01:11:09 am From: dima@FreeBSD.org (Dima Ruban) X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 465 Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter da Silva writes: > > > Sorry, but this still just doesn't do it for me. I will be doing > > other logins within that session, or often need to `su' to do system > > repair work. > > There's an skeylogin and an skeysu in there, so you can use skey for all > your authentication needs. No, because, for example, I want to use PGP via network. Or you suggesting to hack PGP to add skey support? Wrong. That's why we need to encrypt all session. > -- dima From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 02:02:37 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id CAA14115 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 02:02:37 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id CAA13956; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 02:00:35 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA21732 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Mon, 27 Feb 1995 03:49:14 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA22075; 27 Feb 95 01:34:05 CST (Mon) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA22066; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:34:03 -0600 Message-Id: <199502270734.BAA22066@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Authentication-Warning: bonkers.taronga.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Paul Traina Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 95 21:57:01 PST." <199502270557.VAA02393@precipice.Shockwave.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.4.1 7/21/94 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:34:00 -0600 From: Peter da Silva Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Also, Hobbit's skey uses MD5 or MD4. From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 02:02:54 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id CAA14154 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 02:02:54 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id CAA13991; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 02:01:10 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA21727 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Mon, 27 Feb 1995 03:49:07 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA21964; 27 Feb 95 01:31:45 CST (Mon) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA21961; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:31:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199502270731.BAA21961@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Authentication-Warning: bonkers.taronga.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Paul Traina Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 95 21:57:01 PST." <199502270557.VAA02393@precipice.Shockwave.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.4.1 7/21/94 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:31:36 -0600 From: Peter da Silva Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > FreeBSD already has full support for S/Key. What's the difference between > this and Hobbit's SecureKey? Dunno. I haven't looked at FreeBSD's because I had to set this up on OSF/1 and SunOS and Xenix and System V and stuff, and Hobbit's was already more or less productised to drop into a working UNIX box pretty easily. I have sucked other FreeBSD stuff into OSF/1 to replace stuff DEC broke (the FreeBSD CDROM makes a great fixit CDROM) but this seemed a bit distributed... From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 02:03:10 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id CAA14177 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 02:03:10 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id CAA14040; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 02:01:31 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA21725 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Mon, 27 Feb 1995 03:48:59 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA21807; 27 Feb 95 01:24:13 CST (Mon) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA21804; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:24:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199502270724.BAA21804@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Authentication-Warning: bonkers.taronga.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Mike Grupenhoff , hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Feb 95 21:20:34 PST." <28195.793862434@freefall.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.4.1 7/21/94 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:24:08 -0600 From: Peter da Silva Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I won't have control over all the sites I want to use. Encrypting my > entire session gives me much more flexibility over what I can do > during that session, and it means I only have to really have it set up > on two reasonably secure hosts to buy a large measure of security for > that "first hop" I've so little control over. I have considered S/key > and the other currently available options. They're truly > insufficient. How about my second suggestion then... swIPe? It'll even generate fake traffic to keep people from doing traffic analysis on you. From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 03:00:10 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id DAA17634 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 03:00:10 -0800 Received: from duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu (!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu [18.43.0.236]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id CAA17504; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 02:58:07 -0800 Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id FAA07849; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 05:57:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 05:57:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199502271057.FAA07849@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Charles M. Hannum" To: pst@Shockwave.COM Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (take this with 3 grains of salt, I am not an expert in D-H) but the base technology requires use of RSA [...] Diffie-Hellman key exchange has no relation to RSA public key encryption. It's very irresponsible to comment on security and/or legal matters without knowing what you're talking about. From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 05:30:01 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id FAA23239 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 05:30:01 -0800 Received: from kryten.atinc.com (kryten.atinc.com [198.138.38.7]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id FAA23210; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 05:27:47 -0800 Received: (jmb@localhost) by kryten.atinc.com (8.6.9/8.3) id IAA08020; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 08:23:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 08:23:13 -0500 (EST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? To: Peter da Silva cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199502262234.QAA11986@bonkers.taronga.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 26 Feb 1995, Peter da Silva wrote: > A more complex answer is swIPe, which lets you run a complete encrypted IP > session on top of an IP channel. This requires you have at least a secure > site in the badguy's camp. like your laptop FreeBSD box. Jonathan M. Bresler jmb@kryten.atinc.com | Analysis & Technology, Inc. | 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy play go. | Arlington, VA 22202 ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life | 703-418-2800 x346 From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 09:26:42 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id JAA29656 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:26:42 -0800 Received: from precipice.Shockwave.COM (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA29650; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:26:40 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.Shockwave.COM (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA03685; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:25:00 -0800 Message-Id: <199502271725.JAA03685@precipice.Shockwave.COM> To: Peter da Silva cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 Feb 1995 01:34:00 CST." <199502270734.BAA22066@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:25:00 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So does ours... From: Peter da Silva Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? Also, Hobbit's skey uses MD5 or MD4. From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 09:30:20 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id JAA29716 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:30:20 -0800 Received: from precipice.Shockwave.COM (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA29710; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:30:19 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.Shockwave.COM (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA03786; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:28:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199502271728.JAA03786@precipice.Shockwave.COM> To: "Charles M. Hannum" cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 Feb 1995 05:57:15 EST." <199502271057.FAA07849@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:28:51 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hence the disclaimer in front... can you go any further than "take this with 3 grains of salt?" I'll go dig out my copy of applied crypto and see where I went wrong, but I was almost positive you needed to use RSA to bootstrap the initial secret exchange. Thanks for the correction, no thanks for the verbage attached. From: "Charles M. Hannum" Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? (take this with 3 grains of salt, I am not an expert in D-H) but the base technology requires use of RSA [...] Diffie-Hellman key exchange has no relation to RSA public key encryption. It's very irresponsible to comment on security and/or legal matters without knowing what you're talking about. From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 10:01:16 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id KAA00385 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:01:16 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA00311; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:59:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.cdrom.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: "Charles M. Hannum" cc: pst@Shockwave.COM, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 Feb 95 05:57:15 EST." <199502271057.FAA07849@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:59:49 -0800 Message-ID: <310.793907989@freefall.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's very irresponsible to comment on security and/or legal matters > without knowing what you're talking about. Hey, great to see you haven't lost that degree of diplomatic finesse' you're famous for. Next time the Serbian cease fire talks to come up, you're my choice for chief negotiator! I can just picture it now - Ambassador Hannum at the peace talks: "OK, you baby killers sit over there and you rag-heads sit over there, no, you're not sitting next to me, Mustapha, you smell like a goat! (under breath: to say nothing of your entirely wretched family!) OK! Listen up! You're all a bunch of pathetic homicidal jerks and it's time to stop fighting! I'd personally be a lot happier if you all just killed eachother off, but my boss insisted I give it one shot. Either way, I'm outta here.. Your country sucks! I wouldn't even waste a nuke on it!" Who knows. It Just Might Work! :-) Jordan P.S. Since you so clearly know more on this topic than Mr. Traina, perhaps you could contribute more positively by saying just WHAT restrictions D-H falls under? I presume "just" general copyright as opposed to an aggressive RSA license? From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 10:05:00 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id KAA00518 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:05:00 -0800 Received: from cs.weber.edu (cs.weber.edu [137.190.16.16]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA00512; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:04:57 -0800 Received: by cs.weber.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1.1) id AA02322; Mon, 27 Feb 95 10:57:33 MST From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) Message-Id: <9502271757.AA02322@cs.weber.edu> Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? To: pst@Shockwave.COM (Paul Traina) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 10:57:33 MST Cc: mycroft@ai.mit.edu, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199502271728.JAA03786@precipice.Shockwave.COM> from "Paul Traina" at Feb 27, 95 09:28:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL52] Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hence the disclaimer in front... can you go any further than "take this with > 3 grains of salt?" > > I'll go dig out my copy of applied crypto and see where I went wrong, but > I was almost positive you needed to use RSA to bootstrap the initial > secret exchange. [ ... ] > Diffie-Hellman key exchange has no relation to RSA public key > encryption. I thought (well, RSA thinks) that the RSA patents cover *all* known public key encryption techniques? Diffie-Hellman requires public key for the initial exchange, and is in fact a technique for secure exchange of keys. I thought it was also patented by PKP/RSA? Terry Lambert terry@cs.weber.edu --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 11:39:17 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id LAA03512 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 11:39:17 -0800 Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA03487; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 11:39:04 -0800 Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; id AA15897; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:38:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:38:08 -0500 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9502271938.AA15897@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-Reply-To: <199502261913.LAA29658@freefall.cdrom.com> References: <199502261913.LAA29658@freefall.cdrom.com> Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > I'll try: "Diffie-Hellman key exchange." Apparently you start out with > a key pair on each end and then each raise eacy to the power of the other's > public half and used the information derived to secure the link. > Do any of you security weenies out there know what I'm talking about? > Am I making any sense? Should I be locked up by the NSA for even suggesting > this? Well, you wouldn't get locked up by NSA, but you might get your @$$ sued off by Public Key Partners. I'm not sure who owns the Diffie-Hellman patent (which expires in a few years), but the rights are controlled by PKP, which jealously guards its patent portfolio. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 14:47:32 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id OAA10926 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:47:32 -0800 Received: from ibp.ibp.fr (ibp.ibp.fr [132.227.60.30]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA10872; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:45:25 -0800 Received: from blaise.ibp.fr (blaise.ibp.fr [132.227.60.1]) by ibp.ibp.fr (8.6.10/jtpda-5.0) with SMTP id XAA19594 ; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 23:43:26 +0100 Received: by blaise.ibp.fr (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16712; Mon, 27 Feb 95 23:44:28 +0100 From: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier Robert) Message-Id: <9502272244.AA16712@blaise.ibp.fr> Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 23:44:28 +0100 (MET) Cc: pst@Shockwave.COM, mycroft@ai.mit.edu, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <9502271757.AA02322@cs.weber.edu> from "Terry Lambert" at Feb 27, 95 10:57:33 am X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development ctm#375 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23beta2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 435 Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Diffie-Hellman requires public key for the initial exchange, and is > in fact a technique for secure exchange of keys. > > I thought it was also patented by PKP/RSA? It is indeed till '97. Many people believe the patents to be invalid but noone has ever went to court and prove it ... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD keltia 2.1.0-Development #9: Sat Feb 18 19:21:00 MET 1995 From owner-freebsd-security Mon Feb 27 22:43:55 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id WAA07993 for security-outgoing; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 22:43:55 -0800 Received: from Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Xenon.Stanford.EDU [36.28.0.25]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id WAA07933; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 22:42:07 -0800 Received: by Xenon.Stanford.EDU (5.61+IDA/25-Xenon-eef) id AA18202; Mon, 27 Feb 95 22:41:16 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 22:41:14 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Lee To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Charles M. Hannum" , pst@Shockwave.COM, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? In-Reply-To: <310.793907989@freefall.cdrom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It's very irresponsible to comment on security and/or legal matters > > without knowing what you're talking about. > > Hey, great to see you haven't lost that degree of diplomatic finesse' > you're famous for. Next time the Serbian cease fire talks to come up, > you're my choice for chief negotiator! I can just picture it now - > Ambassador Hannum at the peace talks: "OK, you baby killers sit over > there and you rag-heads sit over there, no, you're not sitting next to > me, Mustapha, you smell like a goat! (under breath: to say nothing of > your entirely wretched family!) OK! Listen up! You're all a bunch > of pathetic homicidal jerks and it's time to stop fighting! I'd > personally be a lot happier if you all just killed eachother off, but > my boss insisted I give it one shot. Either way, I'm outta here.. > Your country sucks! I wouldn't even waste a nuke on it!" > > Who knows. It Just Might Work! :-) Ahhh. So now I see why there is yet no unified BSD effort. 8^) *politely chuckle* Terry _____________________ I n D i G o Terry Lee _____________________ Technical Director i n t e r n e t 745 Stanford Avenue _____________________ Palo Alto, California 94306 d e s i g n 415 424 0747 _____________________ terryl@cs.stanford.edu g r o u p http://www.mall.net/terry _____________________ http://www.mall.net Professional World Wide Web Consultants From owner-freebsd-security Tue Feb 28 11:58:33 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id LAA01014 for security-outgoing; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:58:33 -0800 Received: from sgiblab.sgi.com (sgiblab.SGI.COM [192.82.208.3]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA00962; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:58:08 -0800 Received: from idiom.com by sgiblab.sgi.com via SMTP (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) id AA19907; Tue, 28 Feb 95 02:24:38 -0800 Received: (from muir@localhost) by idiom.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) id CAA11885; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 02:19:35 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 02:19:35 -0800 From: David Muir Sharnoff Message-Id: <199502281019.CAA11885@idiom.com> To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk S/Key works fairly well for the time being. It's not great, but the better D-H solution can't be used yet in the United States... So, how about we get some of our foriegn friends to make the D-H changes to rlogin/telnet (add a -s flag or something) and then set up defaults so that the D-H stuff is only used if: you're outside the US --- Jordan we'll need a config file or something it's after the expire data on the patent (sometime in 1997) I think it would be really cool if the day the patent ran out all the software automagically started doing the right thing. -Dave From owner-freebsd-security Tue Feb 28 12:13:53 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id MAA01576 for security-outgoing; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:13:53 -0800 Received: from reinfra.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (root@reinfra.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de [129.187.230.226]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA01219; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:04:39 -0800 Received: from vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de ([129.187.142.36]) by reinfra.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de with SMTP id <367>; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:56:06 +0100 Received: (from jhs@localhost) by vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA05626; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 22:00:31 +0100 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 22:00:31 +0100 From: Julian Howard Stacey Message-Id: <199502272100.WAA05626@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? Cc: security@freefall.cdrom.com Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan wrote: > you have no way of knowing > whether or not that password you just typed to log in to freefall was just > sniffed by the entire ..... .... > Should I be locked up by the NSA for even suggesting this? Nope, Welcome to the select group of the terminally paranoid :-) I've been paranoid long before I arrived on the Internet:- (yes, I know, long after you arrived :-) I've Always used one password for my `home' trusted boxes, and one or more other passwords for all the other hosts. I never (well, nearly never ;-) type my real home password through any telnet or shell or rlogin or even microprocessor coms box (inc. PC running kermit as a vt100 emulator) toward my `home' boxes, Instead I always ftp out from my home boxes toward the less secure boxes. Of course this strategy doesn't help your problem, except to know there are others out here equally paranoid (but you knew that anyway ;-) Back in '78 we were joking just how how easy it would be to grab root access, 2 M6800 assembler coding hours later ... we had. Back in '95 (yeah now ;-) Newsweek edition of Feb 27th, Page 37 tells how Tsutomu Shimomura `led the Feds to' [cracker Kevin] Mitnick's door. (In fact much of the Newsweek issue is taken up with Internet this week). Welcome to paranoid reality :-) PS Here's an interesting security doc to browse: ftp.informatik.tu-muenchen.de:/pub/comp/networking/security-doc " This is the complete text for SRI Information and Telecommunications Sciences and Technology Division Technical Report ITSTD-721-FR-90-21. " I view it with groff & ghostview, I've hacked up a much enhanced Makefile (PD) to make viewing easier. --- Julian Stacey From owner-freebsd-security Wed Mar 1 02:15:00 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id CAA20447 for security-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 02:15:00 -0800 Received: from duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu (!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu [18.43.0.236]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id CAA20419; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 02:13:32 -0800 Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id FAA05750; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 05:13:27 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 05:13:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199503011013.FAA05750@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Charles M. Hannum" To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com Cc: pst@Shockwave.COM, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to someone Very Well Versed (tm) in this issue: D-H falls under the broad "Hellman-Diffie-Merkle" patent, which (according to PKP) claims all of public-key cryptography. That patent expires in 1997. The RSA patent expires in 2000. Both patents are controlled by PKP (Public Key Partners, a/k/a Jim Bidzos). The RSA "FAQ About Today's Cryptography", available off of http://www.rsa.com/, has a little more info about the various patents. I'm sure the various cypherpunk pages on the Web have pointers, too. P.S. Your message was extremely rude. From owner-freebsd-security Wed Mar 1 06:01:46 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id GAA28922 for security-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 06:01:46 -0800 Received: from devious.nacm.com (devious.nacm.com [199.170.56.35]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id GAA28915; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 06:01:43 -0800 Received: (from barry@localhost) by devious.nacm.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA01653; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:01:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199503011401.JAA01653@devious.nacm.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Barry Lustig Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:01:01 -0500 To: "Charles M. Hannum" Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, pst@Shockwave.COM, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com References: <199503011013.FAA05750@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As I write this, I am looking at a paper written by Nick Christenson that describes an encrypted telnet that uses Diffie-Hellman key exchange to negotiate DES session keys. Why doesn't someone ask him for a copy of his paper. barry From owner-freebsd-security Wed Mar 1 06:44:45 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id GAA00491 for security-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 06:44:45 -0800 Received: from grunt.grondar.za (grunt.grondar.za [196.7.18.129]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id GAA00471; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 06:44:31 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grunt.grondar.za (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA12358; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:43:54 +0200 Message-Id: <199503011443.QAA12358@grunt.grondar.za> X-Authentication-Warning: grunt.grondar.za: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Barry Lustig cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 16:43:54 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As I write this, I am looking at a paper written by Nick Christenson > that describes an encrypted telnet that uses > Diffie-Hellman key exchange to negotiate DES session keys. Why doesn't > someone ask him for a copy of his paper. FWIW, there is a telnet client in src/secure/usr.bin that is not part of the build. This seems to be 'work in progress' that stopped a while ago. What about using that? M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 From owner-freebsd-security Wed Mar 1 07:09:21 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id HAA02005 for security-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 07:09:21 -0800 Received: from ibp.ibp.fr (ibp.ibp.fr [132.227.60.30]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id HAA01854; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 07:07:38 -0800 Received: from blaise.ibp.fr (blaise.ibp.fr [132.227.60.1]) by ibp.ibp.fr (8.6.10/jtpda-5.0) with SMTP id QAA12775 ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:06:25 +0100 Received: by blaise.ibp.fr (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23828; Wed, 1 Mar 95 16:07:21 +0100 From: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier Robert) Message-Id: <9503011507.AA23828@blaise.ibp.fr> Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:07:20 +0100 (MET) Cc: barry@nacm.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199503011443.QAA12358@grunt.grondar.za> from "Mark Murray" at Mar 1, 95 04:43:54 pm X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development ctm#407 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23beta2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 403 Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > FWIW, there is a telnet client in src/secure/usr.bin that is not part of the > build. This seems to be 'work in progress' that stopped a while ago. For non-US readers, there are sources of encrypting telnet on ftp.funet.fi in /pub/unix/security/telnet/ -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD keltia 2.1.0-Development #14: Sun Feb 26 16:31:40 MET 1995 From owner-freebsd-security Wed Mar 1 07:36:45 1995 Return-Path: security-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id HAA04040 for security-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 07:36:45 -0800 Received: from grunt.grondar.za (grunt.grondar.za [196.7.18.129]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id HAA04008; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 07:36:29 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grunt.grondar.za (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA12611; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:35:20 +0200 Message-Id: <199503011535.RAA12611@grunt.grondar.za> X-Authentication-Warning: grunt.grondar.za: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier Robert) cc: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray), barry@nacm.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, security@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: key exchange for rlogin/telnet services? Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 17:35:19 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: security-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > For non-US readers, there are sources of encrypting telnet on ftp.funet.fi > in /pub/unix/security/telnet/ It is in the non-US secure dist available in ftp://skeleton.mikom.csir.co.za/pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/ -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200