From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 01:05:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA01269 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA01257 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA22774; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:05:15 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA20973; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:05:14 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA10023; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:32:12 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603170832.JAA10023@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: core dump in tr To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:32:11 +0100 (MET) Cc: serg@bcs1.bcs.zaporizhzhe.ua (Sergey Shkonda) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603162027.AA01477@bcs1.bcs.zaporizhzhe.ua> from "Sergey Shkonda" at Mar 16, 96 10:27:44 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Sergey Shkonda wrote: > > Try tr "A-B" "C-D" > > ( A, B, C, D > 127 ) > ! u_char *str; /* user's string */ Thanks for pointing this out. It didn't dump core for me, but nevertheless, it didn't do what it was supposed to either. I've modified your suggested fix. The data type of any `char' that holds a real string (as opposed to random byte-sized binary garbage) should really be `char' (neither explicitly signed nor unsigned), but before assigning it to an int or compare it with sign extension, it should be casted to `u_char' first. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 01:50:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA03209 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA03202 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA23364; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:50:28 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA21147; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:50:27 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id KAA10625; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:36:20 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603170936.KAA10625@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Booting problems To: adf@fl.net.au (Andrew Foster) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:36:19 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960318023546.00a647d0@mail.fl.net.au> from "Andrew Foster" at Mar 17, 96 04:35:46 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Andrew Foster wrote: > Hi, > > I've just put an Adaptec 2940 in my system, and I've got this problem : > > Normally boot from sd0. > However, when I do this with this controller I just get cycled between the > > F1 BSD > Default: F? > > prompt. Hitting F1 takes me back to this Default: prompt. Geometry hassles. Make your BIOS and FreeBSD installation geometry for the drive consistent. (In particular, don't use any geometry figures from your drive reference manual.) If this is a FreeBSD-only system, consider leaving out the boot manager, and using the ``dangerously dedicated'' mode. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 01:50:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA03242 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA03235 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA23360; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:50:25 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA21146; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:50:24 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id KAA10600; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:31:27 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603170931.KAA10600@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Linux PPP upgrade causes problems To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:31:27 +0100 (MET) Cc: frankd@yoda.fdt.net, Kai.Vorma@hut.fi Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603170709.JAA19448@lesti.hut.fi> from "Kai Vorma" at Mar 17, 96 09:09:07 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kai Vorma wrote: > > > My Linux using ISP just upgraded his PPP version to 2.2.0e and I can no > longer access the net from his system. I am using user level PPP from > -stable of about a month and a half ago (early Feb) and have had no problems > > Sounds familiar. Try adding to /etc/ppp/ppp.conf > > disable pred1 > deny pred1 IIJPPP's CCP handling is horribly broken. It continues to use pred1 compression even after the CCP negotiation yielded with no commonly agreed compression protocol. *However*, if your Linux side is using pppd, they should consider also applying the patch that i've recently introduced in FreeBSD-current. There's no use in keeping the CCP layer up after no common compression protocol could be found, so closing this layer down is the best that can be done. This way, IIJPPP does also stop using pred1 compression. It simply makes your ISP being better safe than sorry. The patch is very small, so i'm posting it here again (rcsid diff omitted): Index: /usr/src/usr.sbin/pppd/ccp.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/cvs/src/usr.sbin/pppd/ccp.c,v retrieving revision 1.3 retrieving revision 1.4 diff -u -u -r1.3 -r1.4 --- ccp.c 1995/10/31 21:29:19 1.3 +++ ccp.c 1996/03/08 01:21:53 1.4 @@ -497,6 +497,10 @@ syslog(LOG_NOTICE, "%s enabled", go->bsd_compress? ho->bsd_compress? "Compression": "Receive compression": "Transmit compression"); + if (!ANY_COMPRESS(ccp_gotoptions[f->unit])) { + syslog(LOG_NOTICE, "No matching compression scheme, CCP disabled"); + ccp_close(f->unit); + } } /* -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 02:00:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA03922 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA03910 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA19240; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:42:39 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603171012.UAA19240@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Aust. ISDN, was Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:42:39 +1030 (CST) Cc: peter@jhome.DIALix.COM, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603170224.TAA18373@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 16, 96 07:24:20 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > Mind you, you're in a great position over there compared to *.au.. Here, > > the phone company owns the NT1, so everything you connect to the S0 bus has > > to be "approved", including the software. ie: developing the software > > yourself is completely out of the question here. > > So change your government -- Aussie's have sufferage! 8-) 8-). We just did 8( And all i can say is that they got the *astards they voted for 8(. Chances are good some Baby Bell will have a major slice in the carrier here come the new year 8( > > you and the other users down with it. Result: they dont *dare* let users > > beat them up via custom software. > > So buy hardware from the US. It's not like we can install it in > our service areas for our own use. 8-). Connecting such a unit makes you liable for a $12000 fine. Not my visualisation of a Good Idea 8) > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 02:02:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA04096 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA04083 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA09703; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:01:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199603171001.CAA09703@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: "Mike Pritchard" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Can't reach freefall In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:07:14 CST." <199603170107.TAA01078@mpp.minn.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:01:12 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I haven't been able to connect to freefall since the T1 switch. ... >And here is a traceroute from freefall.freebsd.org to mpp.minn.net: > >Script started on Sat Mar 16 16:52:20 1996 >1% traceroute mpp.minn.net >traceroute to mpp.minn.net (204.157.201.242), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets > 1 gatekeeper.cdrom.com (204.216.27.1) 2.173 ms 2.058 ms 2.036 ms > 2 T1-CRL-SFO-01-EX.US.CRL.NET (165.113.118.1) 14.504 ms 5.492 ms 5.060 ms > 3 F0-CRL-SFO-01-F0/0.US.CRL.NET (165.113.55.1) 8.577 ms 7.921 ms 12.479 ms > 4 165.113.55.20 (165.113.55.20) 7.520 ms 6.405 ms 18.721 ms > 5 smds.west.cix.net (149.20.64.1) 130.033 ms 210.164 ms 199.302 ms > 6 agis.west.cix.net (149.20.64.8) 22.561 ms * 34.507 ms > 7 * * * > 8 * * * > 9 * * * >10 * * * >11 * * * >^C >2% exit > >Script done on Sat Mar 16 16:53:58 1996 > >It looks like the agis sites are screwed up. Can someone on that >end poke them and see what is up? If I asked my ISP to do it, I would >be lucky if they even thought about looking into it sometime in the >next 3 months. I also heard a number of complains on the #freebsd >channel on irc today about being able to reach freefall, so it >sounds like I'm not alone. It's not just freefall, or even CRL. The are currently some serious routing problems/outages in the Bay Area that are affecting just about everything on the west coast - especially those nets that are reached via the CIX. ...but I've nonetheless forwarded your complaint. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 02:03:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA04154 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA04148 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA19252; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:45:34 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603171015.UAA19252@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: GAS question To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:45:34 +1030 (CST) Cc: jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603170352.UAA18530@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 16, 96 08:52:49 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > Oh god, this sucks. ... > Variable references are plain old variable references. Why is GCC so > complicated? Optimisation without requiring intimate knowledge of every possible target platform in the compiler. VC++ is targeted to _one_ processor. GCC supports several dozen. Suck on _that_ one, Microsoft. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 03:09:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA06487 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 03:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA06481 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 03:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I2G0U2BMHS0017YF@mail.rwth-aachen.de>; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:11:51 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA09356; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:15:00 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:14:59 +0100 (MET) From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: Re: GAS question In-reply-to: <199603171015.UAA19252@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: Christoph Kukulies Message-id: <199603171115.MAA09356@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > Oh god, this sucks. > ... > > Variable references are plain old variable references. Why is GCC so > > complicated? > > Optimisation without requiring intimate knowledge of every possible > target platform in the compiler. > > VC++ is targeted to _one_ processor. GCC supports several dozen. This ain't quite true. VC++ is also targeted to Alpha axp and - I don't have my VC++ 4.0 CD handy right now - I believe to other platforms as well. > > Suck on _that_ one, Microsoft. > > > Terry Lambert > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ > ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 03:34:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA07842 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 03:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA07830 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 03:34:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tyGgt-000I8qC; Sun, 17 Mar 96 12:32 MET Received: by ernie.altona.hamburg.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0tyFzI-00000iC; Sun, 17 Mar 96 11:47 MET Message-Id: From: hm@altona.hamburg.com (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: peter@jhome.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:47:00 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Peter Wemm" at Mar 16, 96 10:47:38 pm Reply-To: hm@altona.hamburg.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From the keyboard of Peter Wemm: > Mind you, you're in a great position over there compared to *.au.. Here, > the phone company owns the NT1, so everything you connect to the S0 bus has > to be "approved", including the software. ie: developing the software > yourself is completely out of the question here. The same is true in Germany. The Telekom owns the NT (which is IMHO a big plus for various reasons), and it seems to be true that software driving ISDN cards has to be approved - but not much people care. Besides, i don't think it can be done at all: imagine that for every little bugfix you do you have to re-approve the software ... impossible! > This is partly the case here because ISDN is implemented as an "overlay" > network, where the local exchanges do not speak ISDN at all. This is different here, most of the exchanges are digital, so it is just a flag in some exchange software to have a line speak ISDN or "analog" phone. The Telekom promised to upgrade all exchnages to digital by the end of 1998. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@altona.hamburg.com Hamburg, Europe (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 03:34:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA07876 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 03:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA07865 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 03:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA19417; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:17:06 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603171147.WAA19417@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: GAS question To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:17:06 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603171115.MAA09356@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from "Christoph P. Kukulies" at Mar 17, 96 12:14:59 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christoph P. Kukulies stands accused of saying: > > > > VC++ is targeted to _one_ processor. GCC supports several dozen. > > This ain't quite true. VC++ is also targeted to Alpha axp and - I don't > have my VC++ 4.0 CD handy right now - I believe to other platforms as > well. OK, I'll rephrase it then; VC++'s code generator was designed with a single target in mind, GCC was designed from the ground up to be target independant. As Bruce has observed, the GCC 'constraint' mechanism lets you tell the compiler in explicit terms what effect your code, or a call to an external routine, has on the state of the processor, in a general and portable fashion. In, say, an embedded environment, this saves you from having to wrap all your firmware calls in register save/restores. I'm sure it wins big elsewhere, that's just my personal experience with it 8) > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de Speaking of personal experience, there's been a lot of bitching about Unix development tools going on. It's been my experience that many Unix-environment programmers are basically Luddites. There _are_ tools that fit at _least_ half of the wishlist items I've seen bandied about here, it's just that _nobody_uses_them_! For crying out loud, wasn't it you, Terry, that was complaining about not having an environment where you could click on a compiler error and jump to the offending line of source? Emacs has been doing that for as long as it's known what a mouse _is_. You want a debugger that will show you the source as you trace, will let you recompile, reload, breakpoint from where you were and start again? GDB swallowed in an emacs will do that too. ddd and ups are both wonderful tools. gdb-remote is so f*cking fantastic that Cisco appear to use it; cygnus certainly aren't going broke just yet, and gcc & co. are basically their bread and butter AFAIK. For all the spewage about Motif, the X4u stuff, particularly their DTP package, looks _gorgeous_. WordPerfect works, and doesn't suck too badly either. Excess use of 'application frameworks' leads to 'framework applications'. Yetch. Who needs 'case statements'? That's what event bindings under any decent X-using toolkit are for. Kuku can complain that Tk may not ring his bell - if all he's talking about is its visuals, then I suggest that looking uder the hood at the work it takes off your program would be a good start. No, the tools aren't perfect. Yes, 'good enough' tools _do_ exist. I don't swallow the inverse-NIH, sorry. (Rant off. I just saw "Judge Dredd", and I didn't like it either. 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 04:06:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA10831 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA10824 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:06:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603171206.EAA10824@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA005154482; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:08:02 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: Aust. ISDN, was Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:08:02 +1100 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603171012.UAA19240@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Mar 17, 96 08:42:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In some mail from Michael Smith, sie said: > > Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > > > Mind you, you're in a great position over there compared to *.au.. Here, > > > the phone company owns the NT1, so everything you connect to the S0 bus has > > > to be "approved", including the software. ie: developing the software > > > yourself is completely out of the question here. > > > > So change your government -- Aussie's have sufferage! 8-) 8-). > > We just did 8( And all i can say is that they got the *astards they > voted for 8(. Chances are good some Baby Bell will have a major slice > in the carrier here come the new year 8( Well, after talking to a friend of mine who has crashed _exchanges_ both here in Australia and in the USA with ISDN software he was developing, such restrictions are understandable. Lets just hope the same bastards nobody voted for manage to get ISDN to us at a rate around what they were promising. I can't say that things were looking any brighter on this front with the folks who got voted out either, but lets not discuss that here. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 04:29:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA11648 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA11642 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 04:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA04880; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:31:47 +0200 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:31:45 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Christoph P. Kukulies" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GAS question In-Reply-To: <199603171115.MAA09356@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Christoph P. Kukulies wrote: > > > > Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > Oh god, this sucks. > > ... > > > Variable references are plain old variable references. Why is GCC so > > > complicated? > > > > Optimisation without requiring intimate knowledge of every possible > > target platform in the compiler. > > > > VC++ is targeted to _one_ processor. GCC supports several dozen. > > This ain't quite true. VC++ is also targeted to Alpha axp and - I don't > have my VC++ 4.0 CD handy right now - I believe to other platforms as > well. What will alpha axp think of the reference to the eax register? :) > > > > Suck on _that_ one, Microsoft. > > > > > Terry Lambert > > > > -- > > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ > > ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ > > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > > ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ > > ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > > > > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de > Sander Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 05:49:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA14887 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 05:49:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from yoda.fdt.net (root@yoda.fdt.net [205.229.48.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA14882 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 05:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kryten.nina.com (dyn018-gnv.51.fdt.net [205.229.51.19]) by yoda.fdt.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA29557; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:49:45 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 08:48:46 -0500 (EST) From: Frank Seltzer X-Sender: frankd@Kryten.nina.com To: Kai.Vorma@hut.fi cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux PPP upgrade causes problems In-Reply-To: <199603170709.JAA19448@lesti.hut.fi> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sounds familiar. Try adding to /etc/ppp/ppp.conf > > disable pred1 > deny pred1 Thank you, thank you, thank you! That fixed it. After 21 hours without my net connection and my FreeBSD box I was a little stir crazy :-) Frank From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 06:46:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA17955 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 06:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA17950 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 06:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA09395; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:44:35 +1100 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:44:35 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603171444.BAA09395@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: core dump in tr Cc: serg@bcs1.bcs.zaporizhzhe.ua Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >As Sergey Shkonda wrote: >> >> Try tr "A-B" "C-D" >> >> ( A, B, C, D > 127 ) >> ! u_char *str; /* user's string */ >Thanks for pointing this out. It didn't dump core for me, but >nevertheless, it didn't do what it was supposed to either. I think ordinary A-D and other characters in the C locale are required to be positive as chars. If not, then the suggested patch introduces new bugs in code like int ch; ... switch (ch = *s->str) { ... case '\\': ... } if '\\' < 0, then case '\\' isn't reachable. >I've modified your suggested fix. The data type of any `char' that >holds a real string (as opposed to random byte-sized binary garbage) >should really be `char' (neither explicitly signed nor unsigned), but >before assigning it to an int or compare it with sign extension, it >should be casted to `u_char' first. And before calling isdigit()... The ctype functions currently handle negative characters by converting them to unsigned chars, but are slower for negative chars. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 07:31:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA19920 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 07:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from haywire.DIALix.COM (root@haywire.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA19909 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 07:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from news@localhost) by haywire.DIALix.COM (8.7.4/8.6.12) id XAA23911 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:31:53 +0800 (WST) X-Authentication-Warning: haywire.DIALix.COM: news set sender to usenet-request@haywire.dialix.com using -f Received: from GATEWAY by haywire.DIALix.COM with netnews for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (problems to: usenet@haywire.dialix.com) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: 17 Mar 96 15:29:05 GMT From: peter@jhome.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Message-ID: Organization: DIALix Services, Perth, Australia. References: <199603170709.JAA19448@lesti.hut.fi>, Subject: Re: Linux PPP upgrade causes problems Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk frankd@yoda.fdt.net (Frank Seltzer) writes: >> Sounds familiar. Try adding to /etc/ppp/ppp.conf >> >> disable pred1 >> deny pred1 >Thank you, thank you, thank you! That fixed it. After 21 hours without my >net connection and my FreeBSD box I was a little stir crazy :-) >Frank We really need to find and fix this bug in iijppp.. It's causing problems on several fronts, and even has difficulty talking to freebsd-current's pppd. I think Joerg committed a hack to -current so that it would no longer trip up iijppp, but I dont recall for sure. iijppp is going to have trouble talking to terminal servers, etc that have hardware stac compression. -Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 09:16:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA24435 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24430 Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:16:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603171716.JAA24430@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: Host localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GAS question In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:45:34 +1030." <199603171015.UAA19252@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:16:53 -0800 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >VC++ is targeted to _one_ processor. GCC supports several dozen. Actually, VC++ supports all the platforms that NT runs on as well as the m68k. I'm not sure that all of the backends have been publicly released (the mac one has), but they do exist. >-- >]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ >]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ >]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 09:18:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA24486 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA24481 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id MAA10415; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:16:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:16:33 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-Reply-To: <199603161612.LAA03414@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, dennis wrote: > > I still find it terribly interesting that people will spend a fortune > on horsepower of questionable necessity (like P6s and 166Mhz cpus to > run a terminal server) but want to use $30. async cards for the most > important bottleneck in their network. People will always be doing this because the level of knowledge required to make intelligent hardware purchases is beyond the average consumer. I agree with you, an ISP who sticks a bunch of high-speed serial ports connected to a bunch of Bitsurfrs to provide ISDN access is just asking for trouble. However, for a workstation or PC at home, a serially-connected ISDN TA will work just fine. Heck, I can even connect a 28.8k modem to the POTS jack on my Bitsurfr as a dialin port and keep my analog voice line free. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 10:02:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA26147 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca (cicerone.uunet.ca [142.77.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26142 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from why ([205.150.249.1]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <177429-2>; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:02:34 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:02:19 -0500 From: Andrew Herdman X-Sender: andrew@why To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: pkmalloc Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been reading about people using pkmalloc in 2.1-release's libc to reduce memory consumption. The problem is, is I cannot find pkmalloc anywhere? Anyone know where I can get it? I'd like to give it a try. Thanks Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 10:06:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA26365 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:06:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26360 Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA19594; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:02:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603171802.LAA19594@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:02:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603171716.JAA24430@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Mar 17, 96 09:16:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >VC++ is targeted to _one_ processor. GCC supports several dozen. > > Actually, VC++ supports all the platforms that NT runs on as well > as the m68k. I'm not sure that all of the backends have been > publicly released (the mac one has), but they do exist. I have seen the Mips and the Alpha. I haven't seen the PPC yet, but I expect to soon. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 10:28:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA27053 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27047 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr14.etinc.com (dialup-usr14.etinc.com [204.141.95.130]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA05601; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:31:16 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:31:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199603171831.NAA05601@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Brian Tao From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, dennis wrote: >> >> I still find it terribly interesting that people will spend a fortune >> on horsepower of questionable necessity (like P6s and 166Mhz cpus to >> run a terminal server) but want to use $30. async cards for the most >> important bottleneck in their network. > > People will always be doing this because the level of knowledge >required to make intelligent hardware purchases is beyond the average >consumer. I agree with you, an ISP who sticks a bunch of high-speed >serial ports connected to a bunch of Bitsurfrs to provide ISDN access >is just asking for trouble. However, for a workstation or PC at home, >a serially-connected ISDN TA will work just fine. Heck, I can even >connect a 28.8k modem to the POTS jack on my Bitsurfr as a dialin port >and keep my analog voice line free. Its more the misallocation of funds and focus than it is a "problem"...P133s with work fine but if you've only got a 56kbs line its overkill...spend a couple extra bucks and bandwidth management and tuning features and less on raw horsepower. Although it is very true that Intel and Motorola have saved the butts of many products on the market by making processors so fast that they mask the inefficiencies of the subsystems (ie LINUX). You can make a slow driver faster by upgrading your CPU. Couldn't do that in the old days, tho.... :-) Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous PC Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 10:40:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA27807 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27802 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0tyNNC-0003wZC; Sun, 17 Mar 96 10:40 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA06086; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:40:26 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: Andrew Herdman cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pkmalloc In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:02:19 EST." Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:40:24 +0000 Message-ID: <6084.827088024@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've been reading about people using pkmalloc in 2.1-release's libc to > reduce memory consumption. The problem is, is I cannot find pkmalloc > anywhere? Anyone know where I can get it? I'd like to give it a try. phkmalloc is the standard malloc in -current, conseqently you can find it in any copy of the -current source in src/lib/libc/stdlib/malloc.c While I'm on this subject: I'm preparing a paper on phkmalloc, has anybody out there used it on other platforms yet ? Any experiences or numbers for me ? Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 11:11:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA29748 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29736 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA19746; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:05:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603171905.MAA19746@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: imb@scgt.oz.au (michael butler) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:05:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603170511.QAA11569@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> from "michael butler" at Mar 17, 96 04:11:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Actually, Intel wrote a long letter, and it's a pretty good one, for > > low cost flat rate ISDN tariff (the US West Tariff in Arizona is > > $187/month for flat rate, as opposed to $29/month from PacBell for > > you weenies in California). > > To echo Peter Wemm's comments .. for _one_ 64k channel in Oz .. > > Once only installation ........ 2 x $396 ......... $ 792 (one each end) > Annual Rental ................. 2 x $960 ......... $ 1920 > Semi-Permanent Connection .... (for < 8km) ....... $ 2172 > > .. or an up-front charge of $A4884 (~$3663). That's a recurring > $A341/~$US256 per month _before_ you get it connected to the 'net. The above > just gets two connected U-reference tails one at each chosen location. > > Oh, you want to connect it to the 'net ? .. add $A8600/~$US6450 (once off) > for the router plus $A2000/~$US1500 each month if you use less than 25% of > the 64k (more for more, up to $A9k/~$US6.75k a month at 100%). Since we > /have/ changed governments, you wanna buy shares in Telstra, Terry ? :-) No, but I will invest in any startup competitor, since I *know* it doesn't cost that much to provide the services. At 1/10th the charge, we'd still make a huge profit. > If you time your installation properly, Telstra will "generously" waive the > $792 ISDN installation fee but the remainder is "undiscountable" :-( Note > that I didn't include the cost of the Telstra-supplied NT1 so's you can > connect S-bus gear (e.g. sun, cisco, etc). I forget how much the rent is on > that .. A net connection will not be a commodity item in the US until it costs around the same as a cable TV connection. Generally, that's ~$29/month. There are a number of TCI (the largest US cable company) zones that are currently offering full 10Mb/S, bidirectional, to the net (that's full ethernet speed, folks). They are charging $28.95/month. So far it has been deployed to 30,000 homes in Southern California (Sunnyvale?) >From http://www.home.net/home2/speed.html: Cable modems are almost 700 times faster than 14.4 modems and nearly 80 times faster than ISDN connections. Cable modems do not require an extra phone line, and they eliminate the time and potential trouble involved in dialing a service. Cable-based Internet services offer an even richer multimedia experience than CD-ROM technology, including real-time delivery and updating of content. And cable offers a direct connection to the online world--when you turn on the computer, you are on the network. [ ... ] Deployment of the @Home service will begin in 1996 in select national markets, starting with Sunnyvale, Calif. The monthly charge for @Home is expected to be $30-$50 for unlimited use of basic services. [ ... ] The software required to use the service would be provided to the subscriber by @Home and will include a TCP/IP stack and Internet browser software with built-in e-mail and multimedia capabilities. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 11:17:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA00275 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00268 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA19774; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:12:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603171912.MAA19774@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Aust. ISDN, was Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:12:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, peter@jhome.DIALix.COM, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603171012.UAA19240@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Mar 17, 96 08:42:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > to be "approved", including the software. ie: developing the software > > > yourself is completely out of the question here. [ ... ] > > > you and the other users down with it. Result: they dont *dare* let users > > > beat them up via custom software. > > > > So buy hardware from the US. It's not like we can install it in > > our service areas for our own use. 8-). > > Connecting such a unit makes you liable for a $12000 fine. Not my > visualisation of a Good Idea 8) I find it hard to believe that you could casually connect a US manufactured 5ESS Electronic Switching System unless you were the phone company... or run the AT&T ISDN software on it unless you owned it. Or substitute the 6Mb/S out, 4Mb/s in cards that AT&T has that "just plug in" as replacements for the ISDN cards in a 5ESS. If you are talking cards, well, they can be shoved through the approval process by an enterprising importer who wants to make his money on the margins on imported hardware. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 11:25:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA00519 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00514 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA19795; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:20:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603171920.MAA19795@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:20:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: jdp@polstra.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, nate@sneezy.sri.com In-Reply-To: <199603170723.SAA27501@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Mar 17, 96 06:23:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Oh god, this sucks. > > Does not. [ ... ] > This is very primitive. Instead of letting the compiler decide which > registers to use, you have to do all the register loading yourself. > This wastes your time, and wastes the cpu's time doing unnecessary > moves if the registers are already in suitable places (delta in eax > and locklist in ebx in the above). Excuse me. If I wanted the compiler to decide this, I would have written it in C. I wrote it in assembly because there exists an API of which the compiler is ignorant that depends on particular registes being used. It's not my fault that the assembler is too stupid to reorder instructions, and that optimization in GCC takes place using quad tree operations and during code generation, instead of where it should. > >And Assembly for a C callable function (Win95 blue screen from a VXD, > >actually): > > > >IFSMgr_SYSMODAL_Message PROC C PUBLIC USES EBX EDI ESI \ > > pszMessage:DWORD, \ > > pszCaption:DWORD, \ > > dwFlags:DWORD > > > > VxDCall Get_Sys_VM_Handle ; handle in ebx > > mov eax, dwFlags > > mov ecx, pszMessage > > mov edi, pszCaption > > VxDCall SHELL_SYSMODAL_Message ; bluescreen with message > > ret > >IFSMgr_SYSMODAL_Message ENDP > > Assembly for a C callable function in gas: > > foo: > ret > > :-) I don't see you handling C parameters or obeying register saves for calling conventions or dealing automatically with "callee pop" or any of a large number of other issues that using a real optimizing macroassembler would handle for you. > >A C function without any preamble/postamble, and block inline assembly: > > >__declspec(naked) void > >_peneter(save_edx) > >{ > > _asm { > > mov eax, esp > > pushfd > > cli > > push eax > > mov edx, save_edx > > ... > > popfd > > ret > > } > >} > > The preamble/postamble can't be avoided for extern functions in gcc asm > (it's always needed for pic and profiling code anyway). The above > should be written as an inline functions if the `...' part is short. This code gets the profiling calls, if profililing options are specified on the compilation line. There *is* an assumption about ESP. The "naked" "declspec" (sucky syntax, I know) avoids the "normal" "C-ification" of the code. > >Variable references are plain old variable references. Why is GCC so > >complicated? > > It's more powerful. Plain old variable references are used, just not > in the part that looks like it will be processed by the assembler. I'm missing something. Why does complexity == power? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 11:30:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA00713 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00708 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA19811; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:24:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603171924.MAA19811@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:24:27 -0700 (MST) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Mar 17, 96 02:31:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This ain't quite true. VC++ is also targeted to Alpha axp and - I don't > > have my VC++ 4.0 CD handy right now - I believe to other platforms as > > well. > > What will alpha axp think of the reference to the eax register? :) It will think the code isn't portable and choke on it. Presumably, I'd code a C version and then I'd code a processor dependent assembly/inline version for each processor architecture (this is one area where much of the FreeBSD assembly code sucks out: no up-to-date C versions). If I were a weenie, I'd put them all in the same file and #ifdef them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 11:33:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA00853 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00848 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA01395; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:32:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199603171932.LAA01395@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: imb@scgt.oz.au (michael butler), hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:05:56 MST." <199603171905.MAA19746@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:32:29 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert said: > Deployment of the @Home service will begin in 1996 in select This is all fine and great however must cable companies are not up to to do job of @home . For instance, San Francisco it will be a year or later. Besides, I am not so sure that I trust the cable companies to deliver such high bandwith bi-directional traffic to the home. Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 11:51:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA01485 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from jhome.DIALix.COM (root@jhome.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.69]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01478 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:51:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.DIALix.oz.au (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by jhome.DIALix.COM (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA18743; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 03:51:29 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199603171951.DAA18743@jhome.DIALix.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: jhome.DIALix.COM: Host peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Aust. ISDN, was Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:12:03 MST." <199603171912.MAA19774@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 03:51:28 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > > to be "approved", including the software. ie: developing the software >> > > yourself is completely out of the question here. > >[ ... ] > >> > > you and the other users down with it. Result: they dont *dare* let user >s >> > > beat them up via custom software. >> > >> > So buy hardware from the US. It's not like we can install it in >> > our service areas for our own use. 8-). >> >> Connecting such a unit makes you liable for a $12000 fine. Not my >> visualisation of a Good Idea 8) > >I find it hard to believe that you could casually connect a US >manufactured 5ESS Electronic Switching System unless you were the >phone company... or run the AT&T ISDN software on it unless you >owned it. Or substitute the 6Mb/S out, 4Mb/s in cards that AT&T >has that "just plug in" as replacements for the ISDN cards in a >5ESS. Who's talking about switches? The US stuff is incompatable (protocol wise) with ours anyway.. (Our ISDN flavour is closer to the European one, and will be identical soon, once the exchange upgrades are finished). We've been talking about $12,000+ fines for plugging in an ISDN card into a PC and using your own drivers.. >If you are talking cards, well, they can be shoved through the >approval process by an enterprising importer who wants to make >his money on the margins on imported hardware. Not without spending $$$$$$ to redo the firmware on the cards/ta's/etc to do the sufficiently different protocols. You've got to sell a lot of boxes to cover that kind of cost for such a small market. My experiences so far with the imported "multi-market" hardware so far has been terrible. Trying to get it to support some of the.. "unique" requirements to activate semi-permanent flat rate billing has been rather depressing. I hope the Cisco stuff does a better job. > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. Cheers, -Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 12:29:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA03258 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:29:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03253 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0tyP52-0003w7C; Sun, 17 Mar 96 12:29 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA06300; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:29:43 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert cc: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans), jdp@polstra.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, nate@sneezy.sri.com Subject: Re: GAS question In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:20:28 MST." <199603171920.MAA19795@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:29:42 +0000 Message-ID: <6298.827094582@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Assembly for a C callable function in gas: > > > > foo: > > ret > > > > :-) > > I don't see you handling C parameters or obeying register saves for > calling conventions or dealing automatically with "callee pop" or > any of a large number of other issues that using a real optimizing > macroassembler would handle for you. I sit here with the documentation of the calling convention, and as far as I can tell all rules are obeyed to the letter. :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 12:37:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA03881 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:37:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from fw.ast.com (fw.ast.com [165.164.6.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03864 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nemesis by fw.ast.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tyPCq-00084cC; Sun, 17 Mar 96 14:37 CST Received: by nemesis.lonestar.org (Smail3.1.27.1 #20) id m0tyP7q-000CSRC; Sun, 17 Mar 96 14:32 WET Message-Id: Date: Sun, 17 Mar 96 14:32 WET To: hackers@freebsd.org From: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV) Sent: Sun Mar 17 1996, 14:32:26 CST Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [3]From: Terry Lambert [3]It would cost me in excess of $3000 to write an ISDN driver because of [3]the need to have two cards and two lines (since there is no one else to [3]talk ISDN to in this very expensive area except very expensive ISPs), [3]not to mention programming documentation. Many people in the US are [3]in the same boat (or worse). TelTone, the company that sells POTS telephone simulators now has a I.S.D.N. simulator. Just the thing for development and early test. Maybe we can work a deal with these guys... 90-day eval? Frank Durda IV |"The Knights who say "LETNi" or uhclem%nemesis@rwsystr.nkn.net | demand... A SEGMENT REGISTER!!!" |"A what?" or ...letni!rwsys!nemesis!uhclem |"LETNi! LETNi! LETNi!" - 1983 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 14:17:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA09996 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:17:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09981 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id AAA05185; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:18:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:18:23 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: Darryl Okahata , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-Reply-To: <199603150307.TAA02767@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > I paid $750 or so for my Ascend Pipeline 50. Geez... our price is around $1500, I think. Bitsurfrs retail for about $450, street price of under $400, but Bell Canada's special for $299 is pretty much at cost. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 14:17:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA10002 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09987 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id QAA04742; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:57:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:57:19 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Darryl Okahata cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-Reply-To: <199603141815.AA106347302@hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Darryl Okahata wrote: > > Somehow, I just can't see *ANY* serial-line-based ISDN modem > handling this kind of speed. Perhaps not, but one P50 costs 6 to 7 times that of a Bitsurfr. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 14:31:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA10674 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:31:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10669 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA06137 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:31:11 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA27513 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:31:11 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id XAA22370 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:20:08 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603172220.XAA22370@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Linux PPP upgrade causes problems To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:20:08 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Peter Wemm" at Mar 17, 96 03:29:05 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Peter Wemm wrote: > We really need to find and fix this bug in iijppp.. It's causing problems on > several fronts, and even has difficulty talking to freebsd-current's pppd. > I think Joerg committed a hack to -current so that it would no longer trip > up iijppp, but I dont recall for sure. Yup, i have. > iijppp is going to have trouble talking to terminal servers, etc that have > hardware stac compression. Quite understandable. The scenario is certainly identical: both ends negotiate CCP, but cannot agree on a common compression protocol. However, IIJPPP gratuitously starts to use pred1 compression, simply since it knows that _CCP_ is still up, although pred1 has been denied. Wasn't the author of iijppp around on the lists, too? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 14:44:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA11393 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dorothy.columbiasc.attgis.com ([153.78.113.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11360 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from haug@localhost) by dorothy.columbiasc.attgis.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA03032; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:38:00 -0500 From: "Brian R. Haug" Message-Id: <199603171738.MAA03032@dorothy.columbiasc.attgis.com> Subject: changes to cpio To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:38:00 -0500 (EST) Cc: brian.haug@columbiasc.ncr.com Reply-To: haug@conterra.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The cpio utility gets into an infinite loop with the following input and command line: cpio -i a ln a b ln b c ls | cpio -oc >cpio.out2 begin 644 cpio.out2 M,#> 8) & 0x00ff)) *************** *** 484,489 **** --- 485,493 ---- if (fnmatch (save_patterns[i], file_hdr.c_name, 0) == 0) skip_file = !copy_matching_files; } + if (skip_file) { + skip_file = check_for_deferments(&file_hdr); + } } if (skip_file) *************** *** 1269,1272 **** --- 1273,1300 ---- error (0, errno, "%s", d->header.c_name); } } + } + + int + check_for_deferments(struct new_cpio_header *file_hdr) + { + struct deferment *d; + struct deferment *prev = NULL; + + for (d = deferments; d != NULL; d = d->next) { + if (file_hdr->c_ino == d->header.c_ino && + file_hdr->c_dev_maj == d->header.c_dev_maj && + file_hdr->c_dev_min == d->header.c_dev_min) { + free(file_hdr->c_name); + if (prev != NULL) + prev->next = d->next; + else + deferments = d->next; + file_hdr->c_name = strdup(d->header.c_name); + free_deferment(d); + return FALSE; + } + prev = d; + } + return TRUE; } Share and Enjoy! Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 14:49:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA11689 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11681 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA20086; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:44:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603172244.PAA20086@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #986 To: louie@TransSys.COM (Louis A. Mamakos) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:44:42 -0700 (MST) Cc: alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603170625.BAA11556@wa3ymh.transsys.com> from "Louis A. Mamakos" at Mar 17, 96 01:25:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The larger Internet Backbone Operators (like UUNET, who I work for) > are looking really, really hard at technologies to aggregate and > multiplex customer connections. We call this technology a Frame Relay cloud. You have *one* connection into the central offices at T1 or T3 speed, and your customers endpoint on your cloud. You pay for *one* line and amortize the cost over all your customers, your customers pay for *one* line. You need *one* interface for all of them. > The stuff we're looking for tomorrow has DS3 bearers, each carrying a > bundle of 28 T1 circuits. That is, a pair of coax right into the > termination equipment, and the T1 circuits never see twisted pair > cable; they're demuxed in the hardware.. The challange is to figure > how how to terminate hundreds of customer T1 circuits per site, and > this stuff just has to be compact (or even better, not even there in > the first place). How about one DS3 into a cloud... The T1 circuits never see your building. If your NSP goes into the same cloud, your building necer sees wires unless you want your own connection. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 14:52:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA11958 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11951 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA20100; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:45:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603172245.PAA20100@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:45:52 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, imb@scgt.oz.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603171932.LAA01395@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Mar 17, 96 11:32:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Deployment of the @Home service will begin in 1996 in select > > This is all fine and great however must cable companies are not up to > to do job of @home . For instance, San Francisco it will be a year > or later. Besides, I am not so sure that I trust the cable companies > to deliver such high bandwith bi-directional traffic to the home. Of course you are free to stay with your current 10Mb/S provider... what, you don't have one? ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 15:00:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA12430 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12425 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA20122; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:53:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603172253.PAA20122@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:53:44 -0700 (MST) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603171147.WAA19417@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Mar 17, 96 10:17:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > For crying out loud, wasn't it you, Terry, that was complaining about > not having an environment where you could click on a compiler error > and jump to the offending line of source? Emacs has been doing that > for as long as it's known what a mouse _is_. Now I need to complain that it's emacs... > No, the tools aren't perfect. Yes, 'good enough' tools _do_ exist. > > I don't swallow the inverse-NIH, sorry. I personally *really* like "BattleMap", an IDE (Interactive Developement Environment). It doesn't run on FreeBSD, unfortunately. > (Rant off. I just saw "Judge Dredd", and I didn't like it either. 8) Wish he'd taken the role seriously, like in "Demolition Man"... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 15:05:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA12698 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from burka.carrier.kiev.ua (root@burka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12682 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (root@sivka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.130]) by burka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with ESMTP id BAA24043 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:05:59 +0200 Received: from elvisti.kiev.ua (uucp@localhost) by sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with UUCP id AAA17561 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:57:40 +0200 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.33]) by spider2.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) with ESMTP id AAA11803 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:15:47 +0200 Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id AAA08726 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:15:45 +0200 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199603172215.AAA08726@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:15:44 +0200 (EET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello people, this topic raises again and again, I personally asked (twice?) to do so, but my gentle request was bounced by -stable maintainers. PLEASE, everyone who thinks that having phk_malloc in -stable is A Good Thing (tm), second me; let's ask -stable maintainers to drop it in! Thanks! -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 15:54:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA15551 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from wa3ymh.transsys.com (#6@wa3ymh.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.42]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA15524 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from wa3ymh.transsys.com (#6@localhost.TransSys.COM [127.0.0.1]) by wa3ymh.transsys.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA12163; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:53:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603172353.SAA12163@wa3ymh.transsys.com> To: Terry Lambert cc: alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #986 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:44:42 MST." <199603172244.PAA20086@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:53:57 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The larger Internet Backbone Operators (like UUNET, who I work for) > > are looking really, really hard at technologies to aggregate and > > multiplex customer connections. > > We call this technology a Frame Relay cloud. Yup, I know all about Frame Relay. UUNET owns and operates on the order of 40 Cascade 9000 frame relay switchs, trunked together with long-haul DS3 circuits. > > You have *one* connection into the central offices at T1 or T3 > speed, and your customers endpoint on your cloud. Yup, and we've got dozens of T1 LEC frame relay ports for doing just this. This addresses, nicely, the problem of aggregating 56/64K up to about 256K customer ports. The only problem with LEC T3 ports is that you can't get them: there is no tariffed service offered. We've been doing some early field tests with T3 NNI connections to address this particular problem with an unnamed LEC. Of course, this is orthoginal to terminating T1 leased lines from customer locations; some of them want their very own port from their premise to "mine", which isn't "shared". You can fix part of the problem space, but not all with one solution. Thus, the extreme interest in directly terminating M13 framed DS3 circuits carrying 28 T1 circuits. Now, if the LEC's would sell connections to their frame relay network using ADSL/HDSL local loops, this is an interesting proposition. Right now, at least Bell Atlantic is trying to figure out what they can do with all this stuff they bought for Phone-Company Video on Demand. The real interesting case is the 4-10 Mb/s customer access speed, and how you aggregate/terminate those connections. Multi-T1 IMUXed? SMDS? ATM? Who knows? The economics of these various solutions are very interesting to ponder, analyze and/or take/make bets on. > You pay for *one* line and amortize the cost over all your customers, > your customers pay for *one* line. > > You need *one* interface for all of them. Well, one for some number N.. > > The stuff we're looking for tomorrow has DS3 bearers, each carrying a > > bundle of 28 T1 circuits. That is, a pair of coax right into the > > termination equipment, and the T1 circuits never see twisted pair > > cable; they're demuxed in the hardware.. The challange is to figure > > how how to terminate hundreds of customer T1 circuits per site, and > > this stuff just has to be compact (or even better, not even there in > > the first place). > > How about one DS3 into a cloud... The T1 circuits never see your building. Yup, this is sort of what we do for customer termination on *our* network. Customer leased lines terminate in *our* frame relay switch which has these nifty 10 port boards with built-in CSU/DSUs. There's a single PVC built from that T1 port to the HSSI port on the same switch that connects to the backbone router. All this to get the port density way up, and the operations costs down significantly. > If your NSP goes into the same cloud, your building necer sees wires > unless you want your own connection. 8-). Wires are evil. The more wires there are, the more opportunities for things to be broken. I'm trying to design pops that have just coax cable (for DS3, channelized and clear) and fiber. The problem, you see, is trying to drastically scale up in effectively constant volume.. Sorry for the diversion; this is pretty far afield from FreeBSD, 'cept that I run it on my machine and it works pretty good. Louis Mamakos From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 16:20:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA17282 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:20:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA17260 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA21469; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:02:38 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603180032.LAA21469@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: GAS question To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:02:38 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, terry@lambert.org, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603172253.PAA20122@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 17, 96 03:53:44 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > For crying out loud, wasn't it you, Terry, that was complaining about > > not having an environment where you could click on a compiler error > > and jump to the offending line of source? Emacs has been doing that > > for as long as it's known what a mouse _is_. > > Now I need to complain that it's emacs... This legitimises me complaining that VC is a Windows tool, that it's a Microsoft product, and that your socks are mismatched. It's a tool. It works. It does what is required. What more can you ask? Political correctness? Sound samples on every keystroke? Sheesh. 8) > I personally *really* like "BattleMap", an IDE (Interactive Developement > Environment). It doesn't run on FreeBSD, unfortunately. Why not? What can we do to rectify this horrific situation? 8) > > (Rant off. I just saw "Judge Dredd", and I didn't like it either. 8) > > Wish he'd taken the role seriously, like in "Demolition Man"... 8-). Hmm. They killed McGruder (bad), and made Hershey a sop (very bad), they gave him a comic sidekick (argh!), trivialised Hammerstein (no lines!) and there WAS NO ANSERSON! ARGH! ARGH! > Terry Lambert (Oops, I'm at work; better stop frothing at the mouth 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 16:20:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA17305 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from DATAPLEX.NET (SHARK.DATAPLEX.NET [199.183.109.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA17292 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 199.183.109.242 by DATAPLEX.NET with SMTP (MailShare 1.0fc5); Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:20:18 -0600 Message-ID: Date: 17 Mar 1996 18:19:56 -0600 From: "Richard Wackerbarth" Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: "Andrew V. Stesin" , "hackers@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: Mail*Link PT/Internet 1.6.0 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > this topic raises again and again, I personally asked (twice?) > to do so, but my gentle request was bounced by -stable maintainers. > > PLEASE, everyone who thinks that having phk_malloc in -stable is > A Good Thing (tm), second me; let's ask -stable maintainers > to drop it in! Until you can demonstrate that NOTHING is (more) broken by doing so, I VOTE NO! Stable is supposed to be just that -- stable. You cannot go breaking things that work, even if they work only because of "two wrongs" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 17:17:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA20168 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA20162 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA21999; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:59:48 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603180129.LAA21999@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua (Andrew V. Stesin) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:59:48 +1030 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603172215.AAA08726@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> from "Andrew V. Stesin" at Mar 18, 96 00:15:44 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew V. Stesin stands accused of saying: > > this topic raises again and again, I personally asked (twice?) > to do so, but my gentle request was bounced by -stable maintainers. > > PLEASE, everyone who thinks that having phk_malloc in -stable is > A Good Thing (tm), second me; let's ask -stable maintainers > to drop it in! NO IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA! This has been discussed to death. I love phkmalloc, and I use it all the time, but making it a standard part of -stable would be BAD. > With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 17:33:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA20857 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20852 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:33:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA02804; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:32:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199603180132.RAA02804@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: imb@scgt.oz.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:45:52 MST." <199603172245.PAA20100@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:32:33 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert said: > > > Deployment of the @Home service will begin in 1996 in select > > > > This is all fine and great however must cable companies are not up to > > to do job of @home . For instance, San Francisco it will be a year > > or later. Besides, I am not so sure that I trust the cable companies > > to deliver such high bandwith bi-directional traffic to the home. > > Of course you are free to stay with your current 10Mb/S provider... > what, you don't have one? ;-). Well, for that matter no one really does at least not in large scale deployment . I vote to keep US West intact 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 19:50:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA26233 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu (root@burdell.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA26205 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from oscar.cc.gatech.edu (cau@oscar.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.107.12]) by burdell.cc.gatech.edu (8.7.1/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA22971; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from cau@localhost) by oscar.cc.gatech.edu (8.7.1/8.6.9) id WAA17753; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:49:56 -0500 (EST) From: cau@cc.gatech.edu (Carlos Ugarte) Message-Id: <199603180349.WAA17753@oscar.cc.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: Tips on developing a new SCSI driver? To: julian@ref.tfs.com (JULIAN Elischer) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:49:55 -0500 (EST) Cc: cau@cc.gatech.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603152146.NAA23403@ref.tfs.com> from "JULIAN Elischer" at Mar 15, 96 01:46:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ok well I can send you a partly done 1680 driver. > this driver was for a much earlier version of the scsi system but it might give > you some hints.. > (this was before the 'scsi_link' structure existed so it doesn't > fit into any current SCSI system. but it shoud be a starting point) Got it, thanks. I know that Linux also has a driver for the FD16xx series, so I'll probably be taking a look at that too. I'm not too keen on paying a company for tech specs on their equipment, and I assume there would be an NDA involved anyways... Thanks for the tips. If I get anything that works, I'll keep you all posted. Carlos -- Carlos A. Ugarte cau@cc.gatech.edu Author of PageMage, a virtual desktop util for OS/2 http://www.cc.gatech.edu/people/home/cau/ Computer Science Senior at Georgia Tech From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 20:41:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA28124 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA28119 Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:41:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id NAA05905; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:41:08 +0900 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:41:08 +0900 Message-Id: <199603180441.NAA05905@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: hackers@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org Reply-To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: [PCMCIA] pccard-test-960318 is now available (bug-fix) From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We release pccard-test-960318 package for FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE and 2.2-960303-SNAP. You can find it at, Anonymous FTP: "ftp://bash.cc.keio.ac.jp/pub/os/FreeBSD/alpha-test/pccard/pccard-test-960318.tar.gz" or WWW page: "http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa/freebsd-pcmcia/" pccard-test-960314 has some minor problems with installation documents and /etc stuffs, and it also has some careless bugs because it's the first release based on FreeBSD 2.2-SNAP. pccard-test-960318 is bug-fix release of pccard-test-960314. The diffs relative to 960314 are in the subdirectory upgrade-from-960314. But I've not made upgrade-patches of /etc stuffs. Please install them in ordinary way. -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 20:49:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA28346 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA28336 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.aros.net (mailhub.aros.net [205.164.111.17]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id UAA02498 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:48:21 -0800 Received: from terra.aros.net (terra.aros.net [205.164.111.10]) by mailhub.aros.net (8.7.5/Unknown) with ESMTP id VAA27538; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:58:07 -0700 (MST) Received: (from angio@localhost) by terra.aros.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA02036; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:46:57 -0700 From: Dave Andersen Message-Id: <199603180446.VAA02036@terra.aros.net> Subject: Re: Can't reach freefall To: mpp@mpp.minn.net (Mike Pritchard) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:46:57 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603170107.TAA01078@mpp.minn.net> from "Mike Pritchard" at Mar 16, 96 07:07:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry I didn't get this email earlier, I took the day off to go throw myself suicidally down a snow-covered hillside. The problem lies in AGIS's routing tables, which they recently changed because of Saturday's garbled router upgrade attempt in Santa Clara. I've contacted them about it, they acknowledge the problem, and they're sending it to "the router people" for fixing. Best guess is sometime tomorrow (monday) for resolution of this. Lo and behold, Mike Pritchard once said: > It looks like the agis sites are screwed up. Can someone on that > end poke them and see what is up? If I asked my ISP to do it, I would Poked. > be lucky if they even thought about looking into it sometime in the > next 3 months. I also heard a number of complains on the #freebsd > channel on irc today about being able to reach freefall, so it > sounds like I'm not alone. Not at all. All AGIS/Net99 sites are off. > "Go that way. Really fast. If something gets in your way, turn" Hey, sounds like my day on the mountain. :) -Dave Andersen -- angio@aros.net Complete virtual hosting and business-oriented system administration Internet services. (WWW, FTP, email) http://www.aros.net/ http://www.aros.net/about/virtual/ "There are only two industries that refer to thier customers as 'users'." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 20:53:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA28505 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from rogerswave.ca (mail.rogerswave.ca [198.231.117.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA28500 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 20:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (wong.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by rogerswave.ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id XAA18130; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:53:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:45:08 -0500 (EST) From: Wong To: Terry Lambert cc: michael butler , terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-Reply-To: <199603171905.MAA19746@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Cable modems are almost 700 times faster than 14.4 modems and > nearly 80 times faster than ISDN connections. Cable modems do Only problem is you are sharing this with thousand other ppl. > not require an extra phone line, and they eliminate the time and > potential trouble involved in dialing a service. Cable-based > Internet services offer an even richer multimedia experience than > CD-ROM technology, including real-time delivery and updating > of content. And cable offers a direct connection to the online > world--when you turn on the computer, you are on the network. > > [ ... ] > > > Deployment of the @Home service will begin in 1996 in select I am using it right now. it is $39 Cdn/month. got alot of problem but this could be the ISP is too green > national markets, starting with Sunnyvale, Calif. The monthly > charge for @Home is expected to be $30-$50 for unlimited use of > basic services. > Ken From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 21:15:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA29364 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ter2.fl.net.au (root@ter2.fl.net.au [203.63.198.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29326 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from tiger.fl.net.au (adf@tiger.fl.net.au [203.63.198.11]) by ter2.fl.net.au (2.0/adf) with SMTP id QAA05234 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:12:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960319020932.009c8a2c@mail.fl.net.au> X-Sender: adf@mail.fl.net.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:09:32 -1000 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: Andrew Foster Subject: Rebooting. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I've just replaced the SCSI controller in my 'dud' machine and it still reboots. This is my dmesg as of a few hours after the reboot occurred : FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #0: Sat Mar 16 18:24:20 1996 adf@cafu.fl.net.au:/usr/src/stable/sys/compile/IMP CPU: 90-MHz Pentium 735\\90 (Pentium-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x524 Stepping=4 Features=0x1bf real memory = 33554432 (32768K bytes) avail memory = 30699520 (29980K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0 rev 2 on pci0:0 chip1 rev 2 on pci0:7 ahc0 rev 0 int a irq 10 on pci0:11 ahc0: aic7880 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc0 waiting for scsi devices to settle (ahc0:0:0): "QUANTUM FIREBALL1080S 1Q08" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 1042MB (2134305 512 byte sectors) (ahc0:1:0): "SEAGATE ST15230N 0298" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 4095MB (8386733 512 byte sectors) (ahc0:2:0): "IBM DPES-31080 S31Q" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd2(ahc0:2:0): Direct-Access 1034MB (2118144 512 byte sectors) (ahc0:4:0): "WANGTEK 6130-HS 4W17" type 1 removable SCSI 2 st0(ahc0:4:0): Sequential-Access density code 0x13, drive empty Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 not found at 0x280 ed1 at 0x300-0x31f irq 5 on isa ed1: address 00:00:01:06:49:18, type NE2000 (16 bit) sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A sio2 not found at 0x3e8 sio3 not found at 0x2e8 lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface lpt1 not found at 0xffffffff lpt2 not found at 0xffffffff fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 on isa wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): wd0: 1204MB (2467584 sectors), 2448 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S aha0 not found at 0x330 aic0 not found at 0x340 scd0 not found at 0x230 npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface changing root device to sd0a WARNING: / was not properly dismounted. pid 182 (innd), uid 8: exited on signal 11 in_rtqtimo: adjusted rtq_reallyold to 2400 in_rtqtimo: adjusted rtq_reallyold to 1600 in_rtqtimo: adjusted rtq_reallyold to 1066 in_rtqtimo: adjusted rtq_reallyold to 710 I've gone from an NCR to the 2940 controller with no real improvement. Someone said it could be something to do with the VM system? swapinfo -k shows : Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/wd0s2c 507024 39180 467780 8% Interleaved Thanks, Andrew Foster ----------- Andrew Foster Sydney, Australia From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 23:12:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA04075 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from paloalto.access.hp.com (daemon@paloalto.access.hp.com [15.254.56.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04067 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from fakir.india.hp.com by paloalto.access.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA122883107; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:11:54 -0800 Received: from localhost by fakir.india.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA073173379; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:46:19 +0530 Message-Id: <199603180716.AA073173379@fakir.india.hp.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NFS problems w/ HPUX 9.0.5 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:41:35 MST." <199603161841.LAA17568@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:46:18 +0530 From: A JOSEPH KOSHY Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199603161841.LAA17568@phaeton.artisoft.com> Terry Lambert writes tl> rewrite them. I don't see that this is a problem... if the data is tl> to be overwritten anyway, then its value is irrelevant. No, the problem is that read()s of (unrelated) files from the NFS mounted file system return bad data IF a write to the same file system is in progress. This isn't the case of multiple writers writing to the same file. tl> This seems to be a client-cache/server cache interaction. If it causes Well I initially suspected the FreeBSD NFS client side code as probably returning the wrong buffer to the reader. However, FreeBSD<->FreeBSD NFS mounts work fine so I ruled that out. But since HPUX<->HPUX mounts work fine too I'm puzzled. If we don't write() to the remote mounted disk, read()s work fine and return uncorrupted data. jk> I'm running FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE on a P5/16MB/500MB-IDE HP Vectra. tl> Can you toggle whether or not you do client caching on the client, or tl> server caching on the server? tl> What version of the NFS protocol are you using? The FreeBSD boxes are stock 2.1.0-R; the HPUX machine doesn't seem to be running NFS v3 (atleast nothing was mentioned in the documentation). How can I turn off client side caching on FreeBSD? I tried mounting the NFS disk synchronous but it didn't help. Koshy From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 23:21:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA04444 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.interserv.com (uhura.interserv.net [165.121.1.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04439 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from Sarala (Psarala.acay.com.au) by relay.interserv.com with SMTP id AA03266 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@freebsd.org); Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:20:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199603180720.AA03266@relay.interserv.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Pratyush" To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:51:12 +0000 Subject: How to get FreeBSD Reply-To: sarala@chris.acay.com.au X-Confirm-Reading-To: sarala@acay.com.au X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I recently found the files for FreeBSD in the FreeBSD directory in the ftp server ftp.tas.gov.au. I'm not sure what to do now. Can you help me with what i should download from here and how i can install it on my machine after i have downloaded it. Thanks for your help. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 17 23:38:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA05075 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA05070 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA12549; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:42:04 -0800 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:42:04 -0800 (PST) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Panic: unwire Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm getting a "panic: unwire: page not in pmap", when compiling ssh-1.2.13 on a box that has been running fine for ages. It's reproducible at will. It's at the step where the gen_minfd program is run. It starts up and Wham! All she wrote. This is on a -current box supped as of 3/17/96, although the problem has been there for a few days. A kernel from first part of march, and a 3/3/SNAP don't have the problem. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 00:05:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA06330 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA06324 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA05324; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:04:26 -0800 (PST) To: sarala@chris.acay.com.au Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to get FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:51:12 GMT." <199603180720.AA03266@relay.interserv.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:04:26 -0800 Message-ID: <5322.827136266@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You should first read the files that are there - they will tell you more about installing and using FreeBSD. In other words, please read the docs we provide before asking such basic questions! The people here are very busy. Thanks. Jordan > I recently found the files for FreeBSD in the FreeBSD directory in the ftp se rver ftp.tas.gov.au. > I'm not sure what to do now. > Can you help me with what i should download from here and how i can install i t on my machine after i have downloaded it. > Thanks for your help. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 00:44:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA09615 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA09609 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA15110; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:36:42 +1100 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:36:42 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603180836.TAA15110@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: GAS question Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> This is very primitive. Instead of letting the compiler decide which >> registers to use, you have to do all the register loading yourself. >> This wastes your time, and wastes the cpu's time doing unnecessary >> moves if the registers are already in suitable places (delta in eax >> and locklist in ebx in the above). >Excuse me. If I wanted the compiler to decide this, I would have >written it in C. It can't be written in C. >I wrote it in assembly because there exists an API of which the >compiler is ignorant that depends on particular registes being >used. That's why it can't be written in C. apm_int() is not a good way to glue to an external API. Inline C functions, like all C functions, can only return one value so they can't directly deal with several values returned in registers except possibly by returning a struct that the compiler optimizes away. DOS interfaces such as int86() have the same problems. It's very easy to write everything inline using gcc asm: u_long eax, ebx, ecx, esi, edi, cf; ... __asm __volatile(" pushl %ebp /* preserved from original (PFO) */ lcall _apm_addr /* or whatever the API wants */ popl %ebp /* PFO */ jnc 1f /* PFO */ incl %3 /* PFO */ " : "=a" (eax), "=b" (ebx), "=c" (ecx), "=D" (cf)/* PFO */ : "0" (eax), "1" (ebx), "2" (ecx), "3" (0)/* PFO */, "S" (0) : "dx"/* PFO */, "si/* PFO */ ); The PFO code can probably be done better (register-based API's probably guarantee not to touch the registers that they don't return a value in, so you don't need to preserve them; %edi can be initialized later unless it is also a 0-valued arg to the API and gcc should be allowed to pich the register that the result is returned in...). Since this is called from several places, it should be turned into a macro. It really is simple - you load a bunch of registers, call the API, and the results come back in a bunch of registers. Simple API calls are even simpler to call. E.g., the BIOS call to read a byte from the BIOS, which takes 30 lines of assembler in /sys/i386/boot/biosboot/bios.S (cheating by counting the comments that document the interface in the wrong place and the mode switch calls :-), can be written in 1 line of inline asm char c; __asm __volatile("int $0x16" : "=a" (c) : "0" (0)); >> >And Assembly for a C callable function (Win95 blue screen from a VXD, >> >actually): >> Assembly for a C callable function in gas: >> >> foo: >> ret >> >> :-) >I don't see you handling C parameters or obeying register saves for >calling conventions or dealing automatically with "callee pop" or >any of a large number of other issues that using a real optimizing >macroassembler would handle for you. See the smiley. Using gcc inline assembler avoids all these problems. >> >Variable references are plain old variable references. Why is GCC so >> >complicated? >> >> It's more powerful. Plain old variable references are used, just not >> in the part that looks like it will be processed by the assembler. >I'm missing something. Why does complexity == power? Some complexity is required for multiple return values and avoiding fixed register allocations. The fairly ugly syntax for gcc asms is partly because it has to be acceptable to cpp (it must consist of cpp tokens). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 00:53:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA09992 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pain.csrv.uidaho.edu (root@pain.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.114.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09986 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pain.csrv.uidaho.edu (fn@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pain.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA13491 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:53:37 -0800 (PST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Panic: unwire In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:42:04 PST." Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:53:35 -0800 Message-ID: <13487.827139215@pain.csrv.uidaho.edu> From: Faried Nawaz Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jaye Mathisen wrote... I'm getting a "panic: unwire: page not in pmap", when compiling ssh-1.2.13 on a box that has been running fine for ages. It's reproducible at will. It's at the step where the gen_minfd program is run. It starts up and Wham! All she wrote. i'm running a march 13 kernel, and ssh 1.2.13 compiled with no problems on march 14. faried. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 00:53:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA10022 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA10017 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA00440; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:52:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199603180852.AAA00440@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Wong cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:45:08 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 00:52:55 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Wong said: > On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Only problem is you are sharing this with thousand other ppl. > > > not require an extra phone line, and they eliminate the time and > > potential trouble involved in dialing a service. Cable-based > > Internet services offer an even richer multimedia experience than > > CD-ROM technology, including real-time delivery and updating > > of content. And cable offers a direct connection to the online > > world--when you turn on the computer, you are on the network. Gosh, Terry tell me where do I sign up 8) BTW: T1 speeds would achieve the same thing so at least ADSL or HDSL would suffice and at least you will be connected to a traditional ISP. [snip] > I am using it right now. it is $39 Cdn/month. got alot of problem > but this could be the ISP is too green Hi Ken, curious what sort of thruput are you seeing... Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 01:02:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA10535 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pancake.remcomp.fr (root@pancake.remcomp.fr [194.51.30.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10523 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from didier@localhost) by zapata.omnix.fr.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA00265; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:56:03 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:56:02 +0100 (MET) From: didier@omnix.fr.org To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: UPS (powerchute) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've tried to run interactive Unix version of the powerchute program from APC but it fails on what seems to be a "getlogin" system call. Is there any similar program for FreeBSD. do you have any information to write one ? thanks for you help -- Didier Derny | My computer is Microsoft Free and Bug Free didier@aida.org | I'm running FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 01:33:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA12008 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA11985 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id KAA00195; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:30:04 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199603180930.KAA00195@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:30:04 +0100 (MET) Cc: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Richard Wackerbarth" at Mar 17, 96 06:19:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Until you can demonstrate that NOTHING is (more) broken by doing so, > > I VOTE NO! Following this reasoning, you will not allow any extension whatsoever to the kernel or system libs or other critical parts of the system, because you often cannot demonstrate what you ask. > Stable is supposed to be just that -- stable. You cannot go breaking things > that work, even if they work only because of "two wrongs" \begin{humor} Very well, this way you don't even allow bug fixes! So let's call it -immutable (unless something depends on the version being called -stable!) and let's concentrate on something else! \end{humor} A more sensible position would be to ask those who use phkmalloc to report any brokennes evidenced by the new routine. Personally, I have been using it for some time (mostly x applications, mail readers, gcc, ghostscript, nfs server etc.) with no single application going wrong (at least to my knowledge). Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 01:35:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA12153 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:35:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA12131 Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id SAA09335; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:35:32 +0900 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:35:32 +0900 Message-Id: <199603180935.SAA09335@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [PCMCIA] pccard-test-960318 is now available (bug-fix) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:41:08 +0900. <199603180441.NAA05905@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199603180441.NAA05905@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp writes: I found some bugs were still remained in README's, so I fixed it now. The package of bash.cc.keio.ac.jp are replaced with the newer one, and If you have already got this package, new README's can be read at WWW page of this package. The URL is, >> "http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa/freebsd-pcmcia/" I'll put the package at freefall later. -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 01:55:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA13057 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:55:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA13049 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0tybcr-0003viC; Mon, 18 Mar 96 01:53 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA07647; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:52:59 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: Luigi Rizzo cc: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth), stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:30:04 +0100." <199603180930.KAA00195@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:52:56 +0000 Message-ID: <7645.827142776@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Until you can demonstrate that NOTHING is (more) broken by doing so, > > > > I VOTE NO! > > Following this reasoning, you will not allow any extension whatsoever > to the kernel or system libs or other critical parts of the system, > because you often cannot demonstrate what you ask. > > > Stable is supposed to be just that -- stable. You cannot go breaking things > > that work, even if they work only because of "two wrongs" I think Richard is getting too defensive here, though his position is understandable. I belive that all the code that has been report as broken has been fixed in both -current and -stable, with the possible exception of the NIS/YP stuff. The issue is still up in the air, and for it to be decided we need some, actually: a lot, of reports saying: I'm running phkmalloc in -stable and it works fine. So here is again the recipe: 1. get src/lib/libc/stdlib/malloc.[3c] from -current and stick it into your -stable source tree. 2. make world. 3. beat on it A LOT 4. report result. In particular I'd like reports from people running NIS/YP. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 02:27:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA14425 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA14419 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA14108; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:30:56 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:30:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Anybody running -current with NNTPLINK? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Seems to fail miserably in select() calls, with a variety of invalid argument errors. I'm thinking it's something pretty trivial, since select obviously can't be completely broken, or half the damn tree wouldn't work. It may have something to do with the number of open files, I'm not sure yet. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 03:28:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA16744 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 03:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.vil.ditec.de (gw.vil.ditec.de [192.109.176.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA16657 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 03:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tartufo.muc.ditec.de (tartufo.muc.ditec.de [134.98.18.2]) by gw.vil.ditec.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA06183 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:06:57 +0100 Received: by tartufo.muc.ditec.de (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.39) id ; Mon, 18 Mar 96 12:28 MET Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 12:28 MET From: me@tartufo.muc.ditec.de (Michael Elbel) To: peter@taronga.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An ISP's Wishlist... Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hackers References: <199602192116.WAA20624@keltia.freenix.fr> <199603140812.CAA03540@bonkers.taronga.com> Reply-To: me@muc.DITEC.de X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.hackers you write: >Michael Elbel wrote: >>The bastion is special in that it needs to know about *both* the inside [...] >>as well as the rest of the world, [...] You cannot use the external >>server or you wouldn't know about the internal part [...]. Nor >>can you use the internal server, because it knows zilch about the rest >>of the world [...]. >I have no problem with this. >I have the inside namesrver with all of named.ca/named.root commented out. >I have the outside name server. >I have resolv.conf on the firewall look at the inside nameserver then the >outside nameserver. >Is this not supposed to work? >Because it does. Of course it does work, the extra NS query probably doesn't cost much. It only has one drawback - I can't put my beloved wildcard MX-records, pointing to the mail gateway, on the internal server. I'd again have to reconfigure every single inside mail installation to forward mail not inside our internal domain to the mail gateway (how do you do this under UCX anyways?), spending even more time on the phone answering people's questions who have newly set up their machine than I now :( Michael -- Michael Elbel, DITEC, Muenchen, Germany - me@muc.ditec.de Fermentation fault (coors dumped) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 04:15:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA18977 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from burka.carrier.kiev.ua (burka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA18885 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:11:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (root@sivka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.130]) by burka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with ESMTP id OAA06946 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:11:29 +0200 Received: from elvisti.kiev.ua (uucp@localhost) by sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with UUCP id NAA01015 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:06:04 +0200 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.33]) by spider2.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) with ESMTP id NAA10176 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:04:20 +0200 Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id NAA06165; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:04:19 +0200 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199603181104.NAA06165@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:04:18 +0200 (EET) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603180930.KAA00195@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Mar 18, 96 10:30:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk # A more sensible position would be to ask those who use phkmalloc to # report any brokennes evidenced by the new routine. I'm using it in recompiled 2.1-RELEASE with zero problems. Hope I'll be able to go to -stable as soon as our Internet connection will arrive and try that, too. But I don't have resources to hold the whole CVS tree and keep a custom -stable branch in it because of a single malloc(3) routine. :( # Personally, I have been using it for some time (mostly x applications, # mail readers, gcc, ghostscript, nfs server etc.) with no single # application going wrong (at least to my knowledge). Seconded. # Luigi # ==================================================================== # Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione # email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa # tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) # fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ # ==================================================================== # -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 04:29:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA19436 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.com (hda.com [199.232.40.182]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA19431 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:29:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id HAA04379 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:28:36 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199603181228.HAA04379@hda.com> Subject: Cable modems To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:28:35 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Wong" at Mar 17, 96 11:45:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > Cable modems are almost 700 times faster than 14.4 modems and > > nearly 80 times faster than ISDN connections. Cable modems do > > Only problem is you are sharing this with thousand other ppl. Which can be partially addressed by subnetting the subscribers. It is hard for me to figure out where all these approaches wind up - as you identify bottlenecks you can also identify work arounds. I saw that Motorola and Sun announced an initiative in this. I think the plan is centralized big Sun servers, essentially giving you web terminals at the other end of the cable modem. This will work pretty well even with unbalanced (high speed out low speed in) lines. Is any one working on cable modem systems that they can discuss? -- *** March 13, 1996: Our ISP may be GONE. You may never read this. *** *** "hda.com" connectivity is now intermittent to nonexistent *** Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 06:07:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA23565 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 06:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw3.att.com ([204.179.186.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA23545 Mon, 18 Mar 1996 06:07:51 -0800 (PST) From: ejc@nasvr1.cb.att.com Received: from nasvr1.cb.att.com (naserver1.cb.att.com) by ig4.att.att.com id AA17006; Mon, 18 Mar 96 08:59:59 EST Received: by nasvr1.cb.att.com (5.x/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA26557; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:05:02 -0500 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com Received: from ginger.cb.att.com by nasvr1.cb.att.com (5.x/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA26548; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:04:55 -0500 Received: by ginger.cb.att.com (5.x/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA19081; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:08:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:08:23 -0500 Message-Id: <9603181408.AA19081@ginger.cb.att.com> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: ibcs2 panicing under -current Original-Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, dob@nasvr1 X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello I have been trying to install the Word Perfect demo for the last two weeks. At this point I figured it's time to call in the big guns. The installation starts without any problems or error messages. Five or six xwindows come up asking questions about the type of installation I want to do, The last window is the install window I click install, the progress window comes up and the system hard panics. I have done a clean install of -current as of 3-17-96 making sure there were no old libraries, and making sure /etc up to date. The system panic I receive in DDB is: ------------------------------------- fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode fault virtual address : 0x0 fault code = supervisor write, protection violation instruction pointer = 0x8 : 0x1 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = dpl 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, iopl = 0 current process = 717 (xwpinstall) interrupt mask = kernel: type 12 trap, code = 0 stopped at 0x1: addl %eax,0(%eax, %eax,1) The strange thing is in the shell where I was doing the install from, there were a few error messages before the system locked up. cat: dir.list: No such file or directory grep: perms.list: No such file or directory installloop: not found in perms.list These files all exist in the install directory. We did a identical install on another FreeBSD machine and it worked fine. The only difference was it failed on a 486 but worked on a pentium machine, I know it's grabbing at straws at this point but we are tapped out of ideas. It failed on a AMD/133 and a Intel DX2/66. If anybody has any ideas, I would love to hear them. Peace, thanks, Eric dmesg ----- FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 17 16:37:31 1996 ejc@gargoyle.bazzle.net:/var/usr/src/sys/compile/gargoyle CPU: i486DX (486-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x4e4 real memory = 33554432 (32768K bytes) avail memory = 30543872 (29828K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0 rev 4 on pci0:0 chip1 rev 3 on pci0:2 ncr0 rev 2 int a irq 11 on pci0:5 ncr0 waiting for scsi devices to settle (ncr0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST15150W 0020" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ncr0:0:0): Direct-Access sd0(ncr0:0:0): WIDE SCSI (16 bit) enabled. sd0(ncr0:0:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 4095MB (8388315 512 byte sectors) (ncr0:1:0): "QUANTUM LP240S GM240S01X 6.4" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1(ncr0:1:0): Direct-Access sd1(ncr0:1:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 234MB (479350 512 byte sectors) (ncr0:2:0): "PLEXTOR CD-ROM DM-XX28 3.08" type 5 removable SCSI 2 cd0(ncr0:2:0): CD-ROM cd0(ncr0:2:0): asynchronous. cd present [325252 x 2048 byte records] vga0 rev 1 on pci0:6 Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface new masks: bio c0000840, tty c003009a, net c003009a From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 06:51:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA25248 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 06:51:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun4nl.NL.net (sun4nl.NL.net [193.78.240.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA25241 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 06:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from spase by sun4nl.NL.net via EUnet id AB24636 (5.65b/CWI-3.3); Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:49:23 +0100 Received: from deimos.spase.nl (deimos [192.9.200.239]) by mercurius.spase.nl (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id PAA25430 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:49:09 +0100 From: Kees Jan Koster Received: (dutchman@localhost) by deimos.spase.nl (8.6.11/8.6.11) id PAA04521 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:43:58 +0100 Message-Id: <199603181443.PAA04521@deimos.spase.nl> Subject: TELES S0 16.3 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD hackers Mailing list) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:43:58 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hoi Hackers, I didn't quite follow the discussion on ISDN lately, but now I do have a question: does FreeBSD (or Linux) support the TELES S0 16.3 ISDN card? Groetjes, Kees Jan ======================================================================v== Kees Jan Koster e-mail: dutchman@spase.nl Van Somerenstraat 50 tel: NL-24-3234708 6521 BS Nijmegen the Netherlands ========================================================================= Who is this general Failure and why is he reading my disk? (anonymous) ========================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 07:03:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA25756 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (maccs.dcss.McMaster.CA [130.113.68.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA25751 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from church.dcss.mcmaster.ca by maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #5) id m0tygRU-0005w4C; Mon, 18 Mar 96 10:01 EST Received: by church.dcss.mcmaster.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA15948; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:01:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:01:49 -0500 From: dsantry@maccs.dcss.McMaster.CA (Douglas Santry) Message-Id: <199603181501.KAA15948@church.dcss.mcmaster.ca> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: building the 2.1 kernel Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Help! I can't find any documentation on how to build the kernel in FreeBSD 2.1 which I bought on cdrom from Walnut Creek. I installed the kernel sources but the Makefile only builds the libkern stuff. How do I build the kernel? Or where can I get the docs on how to build the kernel? thank you. This isn't not a complaining letter! 2.1 is a great system! I installed it over Solaris 2.4 x86 cuz I like having the source for everything. Keep up the great work! DJS dsantry@church.dcss.mcmaster.ca From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 08:01:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA01881 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01872 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA04404; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:02:37 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:02:37 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603181602.JAA04404@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable In-Reply-To: <199603180930.KAA00195@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> References: <199603180930.KAA00195@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Luigi Rizzo writes: > > Until you can demonstrate that NOTHING is (more) broken by doing so, > > > > I VOTE NO! > > Following this reasoning, you will not allow any extension whatsoever > to the kernel or system libs or other critical parts of the system, > because you often cannot demonstrate what you ask. Actually, we aren't supposed to to be adding extensions to the system or kernel in -stable. However, some things slip through because they are required for critical bug fixes and/or necessary to make life easier and don't affect stability (such as libdisk recently). > A more sensible position would be to ask those who use phkmalloc to > report any brokennes evidenced by the new routine. Broken-ness aside, there is also the appearance of brokeness. Some of the strengths of phkmalloc for a developer are weaknesses to a user. There are still bugs fixed in -current which haven't been brought back into -stable that are revealed by phkmalloc. I've found at least one new one, but I haven't been able to track it down (yet). The appearance of bugs makes people think something is wrong when in fact it might not be. Some of the recent kernel messages are a good example of 'un-necessary' information. Whenever someone sees this message, the user immediately assumes something is wrong when in fact it's an information only message. In the same manner, the messages phkmalloc spits out would only confuse normal users. Finally, it's easy enough for those folks who *know* how to bring it into -stable to bring it in. We're not penalizing folks who have knowledge, simply not enabling it for everyone. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 08:02:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA02001 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01988 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id KAA03293 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:02:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:02:20 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199603181602.KAA03293@plains.nodak.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert says: > Actually, Intel wrote a long letter, and it's a pretty good one, for > low cost flat rate ISDN tariff (the US West Tariff in Arizona is > $187/month for flat rate, as opposed to $29/month from PacBell for > you weenies in California). Intel sent the letter to the AZ an UT > PCC/PUC's; among other things, it suggests people attend the rate > hearings, and that all US West states get together for one big > consensus. Intel wants to sell their ProShare everywhere and ProShare needs ISDN. I think US West figures cable modems will displace ISDN in a couple years, so why bother especially in the "sticks" which is where their customers live. US West has merged/bought a cable company recently and if they don't offer phone/video/data services in their region someone else will and take their whole market. --mark. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 08:13:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA02926 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA02912 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:12:52 -0800 (PST) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA05357; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:06:51 -0800 Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA23895; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:06:45 +0100 Message-Id: <9603181606.AA23895@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com In-Reply-To: Message from Kees Jan Koster of Mon, 18 Mar 96 15:43:58 +0100. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: TELES S0 16.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 17:06:44 +0100 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dutchman@spase.nl writes: > Hoi Hackers, > > I didn't quite follow the discussion on ISDN lately, but now I do have > a question: does FreeBSD (or Linux) support the TELES S0 16.3 ISDN card? > > Groetjes, > Kees Jan > Arne Helme has added or is currently working on adding support for that card. His changes are not in the -current tree. Don't know about Linux. --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 08:21:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA03439 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03434 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA25833; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:19:28 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603181619.KAA25833@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? To: taob@io.org (Brian Tao) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:19:27 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Brian Tao" at Mar 17, 96 12:16:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, dennis wrote: > > > > I still find it terribly interesting that people will spend a fortune > > on horsepower of questionable necessity (like P6s and 166Mhz cpus to > > run a terminal server) but want to use $30. async cards for the most > > important bottleneck in their network. > > People will always be doing this because the level of knowledge > required to make intelligent hardware purchases is beyond the average > consumer. I agree with you, an ISP who sticks a bunch of high-speed > serial ports connected to a bunch of Bitsurfrs to provide ISDN access > is just asking for trouble. Why is that? People keep telling me how the Portmasters can handle 115200 on all ports simultaneously... what's the difference between this and hooking up a bunch of 28.8's? You're just doing the same thing, a little faster.... get some decent serial hardware on a PC (one of the nifty coprocessed intelligent cards) and it even becomes quite feasible under FreeBSD. > However, for a workstation or PC at home, > a serially-connected ISDN TA will work just fine. Heck, I can even > connect a 28.8k modem to the POTS jack on my Bitsurfr as a dialin port > and keep my analog voice line free. Yes, that is quite attractive :-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 08:32:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA04207 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:32:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from chrome.jdl.com (chrome.onramp.net [199.1.166.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04202 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:32:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chrome.jdl.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA04906; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:31:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199603181631.KAA04906@chrome.jdl.com> X-Authentication-Warning: chrome.jdl.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Brian Tao cc: "Amancio Hasty Jr." , Darryl Okahata , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:18:23 EST." Clarity-Index: null Threat-Level: none Software-Engineering-Dead-Seriousness: There's no excuse for unreadable code. Net-thought: If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your Kill file. Compiler-Motto: Wintermute is dead. Long live Wintermute. Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:31:02 -0600 From: Jon Loeliger Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So, like Brian Tao was saying to me just the other day: > On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > > > I paid $750 or so for my Ascend Pipeline 50. > > Geez... our price is around $1500, I think. Bitsurfrs retail for > about $450, street price of under $400, but Bell Canada's special for > $299 is pretty much at cost. Remember also that there are about 4 variants of the P50. {with,without} the routing SW, {with,without} a builtin NT-1. Needless to say, it's the routing SW that was running in the $300-$400 range. So are we doing apples to apples here? jdl From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 08:40:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA04786 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04781 Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id BAA11624; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 01:40:14 +0900 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 01:40:14 +0900 Message-Id: <199603181640.BAA11624@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [PCMCIA] pccard-test-960318 is now available (bug-fix) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:35:32 +0900. <199603180935.SAA09335@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I'll put the package at freefall later. Done. ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/incoming/pccard-test-960318.tar.gz -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:00:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA06059 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA06053 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id LAA01427; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:58:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:58:21 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Joe Greco cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-Reply-To: <199603181619.KAA25833@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > consumer. I agree with you, an ISP who sticks a bunch of high-speed > > serial ports connected to a bunch of Bitsurfrs to provide ISDN access > > is just asking for trouble. > > Why is that? People keep telling me how the Portmasters can handle 115200 > on all ports simultaneously... what's the difference between this and > hooking up a bunch of 28.8's? Actually, I was referring specifically to the situation with ISDN. Instead of having a pile of serial controllers, a pile of Bitsurfrs, a pile of power bars, a pile of serial cables and a pile of phone cables, get yourself a Portmaster with BRI cards or if you're a larger operation, something like an Ascend MAX series and run BRI's and PRI's right into the box. Looking at our machine room, the most problematic area is the nest of cabling and wires between the modems, the Portmasters and the bix blocks. I'd love to be able to plug a single cable into a PRI port and be able to run 23 B channels from there. No fuss no muss. > > However, for a workstation or PC at home, > > a serially-connected ISDN TA will work just fine. Heck, I can even > > connect a 28.8k modem to the POTS jack on my Bitsurfr as a dialin port > > and keep my analog voice line free. > > Yes, that is quite attractive :-) I forgot... I also have a regular analog phone connected to the modem, which serves as a second voice line. :) For the price, a Bitsurfr is flexible and ideal for casual home use. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:03:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA06151 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from hauki.clinet.fi (root@hauki.clinet.fi [194.100.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA06144 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:03:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from cantina.clinet.fi (root@cantina.clinet.fi [194.100.0.15]) by hauki.clinet.fi (8.7.3/8.6.4) with ESMTP id TAA18336; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:02:34 +0200 (EET) Received: (hsu@localhost) by cantina.clinet.fi (8.7.3/8.6.4) id TAA03186; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:02:33 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:02:33 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <199603181702.TAA03186@cantina.clinet.fi> From: Heikki Suonsivu To: Faried Nawaz Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Faried Nawaz's message of 18 Mar 1996 11:16:18 +0200 Subject: Re: Panic: unwire Organization: Clinet Ltd, Espoo, Finland References: <13487.827139215@pain.csrv.uidaho.edu> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <13487.827139215@pain.csrv.uidaho.edu> Faried Nawaz writes: Jaye Mathisen wrote... I'm getting a "panic: unwire: page not in pmap", when compiling ssh-1.2.13 on a box that has been running fine for ages. It's reproducible at will. i'm running a march 13 kernel, and ssh 1.2.13 compiled with no problems on march 14. I started getting this from mid-february, and it has not gone away since. I think I PR'd this one already. It does not seem to hit everyone, but it is repeatable in all my systems. -- Heikki Suonsivu, T{ysikuu 10 C 83/02210 Espoo/FINLAND, hsu@clinet.fi mobile +358-40-5519679 work +358-0-4375360 fax -4555276 home -8031121 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:09:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA06536 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:09:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA06531 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id MAA01445; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:07:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:07:33 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Jon Loeliger cc: "Amancio Hasty Jr." , Darryl Okahata , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-Reply-To: <199603181631.KAA04906@chrome.jdl.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Jon Loeliger wrote: > > Needless to say, it's the routing SW that was running in > the $300-$400 range. So are we doing apples to apples here? Probably not... I'm referring to the full P50 ISDN router with compression, IP/IPX routing, SNMP, etc. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:32:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA08055 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07986 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA25980; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:30:40 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603181730.LAA25980@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? To: taob@io.org (Brian Tao) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:30:40 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Brian Tao" at Mar 18, 96 11:58:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > > > consumer. I agree with you, an ISP who sticks a bunch of high-speed > > > serial ports connected to a bunch of Bitsurfrs to provide ISDN access > > > is just asking for trouble. > > > > Why is that? People keep telling me how the Portmasters can handle 115200 > > on all ports simultaneously... what's the difference between this and > > hooking up a bunch of 28.8's? > > Actually, I was referring specifically to the situation with ISDN. > Instead of having a pile of serial controllers, a pile of Bitsurfrs, a > pile of power bars, a pile of serial cables and a pile of phone > cables, get yourself a Portmaster with BRI cards or if you're a larger > operation, something like an Ascend MAX series and run BRI's and PRI's > right into the box. Looking at our machine room, the most problematic > area is the nest of cabling and wires between the modems, the > Portmasters and the bix blocks. I'd love to be able to plug a single > cable into a PRI port and be able to run 23 B channels from there. No > fuss no muss. Okay, I'll agree that a stupid ISP could make a stupid mess... however I think I'd shoot for the rack mount version of the UTA-220's. That's just a matter of choosing wisely.... obviously it's always in your best interests to come up with as clean a solution as possible. The RM versions of the UTA-220 are cheaper too. Basically I will probably never get past my distaste of any sort of equipment where I have to take down multiple circuits to get my hands on a single device. That's one of the reasons I don't like in{t,f}ernal modems and ISDN PRI gizmos, etc. > > > However, for a workstation or PC at home, > > > a serially-connected ISDN TA will work just fine. Heck, I can even > > > connect a 28.8k modem to the POTS jack on my Bitsurfr as a dialin port > > > and keep my analog voice line free. > > > > Yes, that is quite attractive :-) > > I forgot... I also have a regular analog phone connected to the > modem, which serves as a second voice line. :) For the price, a > Bitsurfr is flexible and ideal for casual home use. Yes, that is quite attractive :-) Been thinking about dumping my POTS service at home (yes, yes, I know the dangers of being without power and only having an ISDN circuit..).. :-) First I actually have to get something beyond an XT laptop though. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:33:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA08103 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA08098 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA18325; Mon, 18 Mar 96 17:31:31 GMT Message-Id: <9603181731.AA18325@fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA010790311; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:31:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:31:51 -0700 From: Sean Kelly To: jdl@jdl.com Cc: taob@io.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, darrylo@hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603181631.KAA04906@chrome.jdl.com> (message from Jon Loeliger on Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:31:02 -0600) Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Jon" == Jon Loeliger writes: Jon> Remember also that there are about 4 variants of the P50. Jon> {with,without} the routing SW, {with,without} a builtin NT-1. Jon> Needless to say, it's the routing SW that was running in the Jon> $300-$400 range. So are we doing apples to apples here? Probably not. I need without the routing SW (I need a bridge, to start) but with the NT-1. And where can you get these things anyway besides direct from Ascend? -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:41:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA08587 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA08580 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id SAA00856; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:39:19 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199603181739.SAA00856@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:39:18 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603181602.JAA04404@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Mar 18, 96 09:02:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Luigi Rizzo writes: > > > Until you can demonstrate that NOTHING is (more) broken by doing so, > > > > > > I VOTE NO! > > > > Following this reasoning, you will not allow any extension whatsoever > > to the kernel or system libs or other critical parts of the system, > > because you often cannot demonstrate what you ask. > > Actually, we aren't supposed to to be adding extensions to the system or > kernel in -stable. However, some things slip through because they are I would just like to remember that the introduction of slices left a bunch of disk-related stuff broken for a long time (I'd say between 2.0.5 and 2.1), and gave the final shot to msdosfs, which in turn caused some coexistence problems with msdos systems. > required for critical bug fixes and/or necessary to make life easier and > don't affect stability (such as libdisk recently). I talked about extensions, I should have probably said enhancements. In any case, I believe libdisk does not fall into the "kernel or system libs or other critical parts of the system". I agree that -stable must be stable, I am only criticizing the fact that the above requirement for making changes to -stable are too strict and impossible to fulfill (and I hope the maintainers of -stable use weaker requirements). > Broken-ness aside, there is also the appearance of brokeness. Some of > the strengths of phkmalloc for a developer are weaknesses to a user. > There are still bugs fixed in -current which haven't been brought back > into -stable that are revealed by phkmalloc. I've found at least one > new one, but I haven't been able to track it down (yet). Can you please mention where this one occurs ? > The appearance of bugs makes people think something is wrong when in > fact it might not be. Some of the recent kernel messages are a good > example of 'un-necessary' information. Whenever someone sees this > message, the user immediately assumes something is wrong when in fact > it's an information only message. In the same manner, the messages > phkmalloc spits out would only confuse normal users. This happens all the time with all parts of the system. fdisk had similar problems (or still has, I don't know) about an unnecessary ioctl for wd disks. If the problem with phkmalloc is in some verbose behaviour, then just rephrase the messages or make a less verbose mode the default before inserting it into -stable. > Finally, it's easy enough for those folks who *know* how to bring it > into -stable to bring it in. We're not penalizing folks who have > knowledge, simply not enabling it for everyone. I am not speaking for myself. But in this case, I believe there are significant memory savings and performance improvements on small memory systems by using phkmalloc. Unfortunately the owners of such systems are often the same people who don't have the knowledge to make this kind of changes themselves. Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:49:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA09030 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from chrome.jdl.com (chrome.onramp.net [199.1.166.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09022 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chrome.jdl.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA05332; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:47:10 -0600 Message-Id: <199603181747.LAA05332@chrome.jdl.com> X-Authentication-Warning: chrome.jdl.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Sean Kelly cc: taob@io.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, darrylo@hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:31:51 MST." <9603181731.AA18325@fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov> Clarity-Index: null Threat-Level: none Software-Engineering-Dead-Seriousness: There's no excuse for unreadable code. Net-thought: If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your Kill file. Compiler-Motto: Wintermute is dead. Long live Wintermute. Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:47:09 -0600 From: Jon Loeliger Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So, like Sean Kelly was saying to me just the other day: > I need without the routing SW (I need a bridge, to start) but with the > NT-1. Right. A year ago, I got the full router SW, no NT-1. About $1300, IIRC. > And where can you get these things anyway besides direct from > Ascend? I started with Ascend directly. Called their 800 number and tried to order one directly from them. They in turn supplied me the name of the local distributor, which happened to be, for me in Dallas: Anixter Ascend Distributor 214-446-7337 Matt Youngblood x247 Talk to anyone other than Matt unless he's learned something this past year... I don't know if there is a nearer one to you, but Ascend should know. The first P50 I had was DOA. I called Ascend, got an RMA, and a day later had a working one in hand after Fed Ex stopped by on Saturday. It was a pleasure doing business with them. jdl From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:50:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA09119 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09112 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA00617; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:52:11 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:52:11 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603181752.KAA00617@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable In-Reply-To: <199603181739.SAA00856@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> References: <199603181602.JAA04404@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199603181739.SAA00856@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Actually, we aren't supposed to to be adding extensions to the system or > > kernel in -stable. However, some things slip through because they are > > I would just like to remember that the introduction of slices left > a bunch of disk-related stuff broken for a long time (I'd say > between 2.0.5 and 2.1), and gave the final shot to msdosfs, which > in turn caused some coexistence problems with msdos systems. And the slice support was only brought into -stable after much gnashing of teeth and incredible PR by the release engineer. After all, he's the guy who is responsible for making the release. > I agree that -stable must be stable, I am only criticizing the fact > that the above requirement for making changes to -stable are too > strict and impossible to fulfill (and I hope the maintainers of > -stable use weaker requirements). Nope. There are *lots* of fixes and such made to stable that follow all the rules set out. I bring in almost *all* of my changes into -stable since they are completely disabled extensions (PC-CARD) and/or bug-fixes for the current code (man page changes, simple bug-fixes, etc..) > > Broken-ness aside, there is also the appearance of brokeness. Some of > > the strengths of phkmalloc for a developer are weaknesses to a user. > > There are still bugs fixed in -current which haven't been brought back > > into -stable that are revealed by phkmalloc. I've found at least one > > new one, but I haven't been able to track it down (yet). > > Can you please mention where this one occurs ? I can't repeat it now, but it happened when I had a shell script with a non-existant shell earlier yesterday. I'm not sure how to repeat it, but in any case it *was* repeatable then, and it wasn't obvious which program was generating the error. (I suspect /bin/sh). > > The appearance of bugs makes people think something is wrong when in > > fact it might not be. Some of the recent kernel messages are a good > > example of 'un-necessary' information. Whenever someone sees this > > message, the user immediately assumes something is wrong when in fact > > it's an information only message. In the same manner, the messages > > phkmalloc spits out would only confuse normal users. > > This happens all the time with all parts of the system. fdisk had > similar problems (or still has, I don't know) about an unnecessary > ioctl for wd disks. And this 'bug' should be fixed. Just because it isn't in other parts of the system doesn't make it 'OK' to do with phkmalloc. > If the problem with phkmalloc is in some verbose behaviour, then > just rephrase the messages or make a less verbose mode the default > before inserting it into -stable. The issue is that it's obvious that all of the possibilities have not been found out with phkmalloc since there are still bugs popping up. Just recently Poul fixed a fence-post error in the allocator, so I'm still not convinced it's stable material. *However*, I *am* running it on one of my -stable systems so that I can find possible bugs, but I'm willing to take chances (and have good backups). When in doubt, I try to err on the conservative side which *may* penalize some users, but it may also make the system more usable (and secure, and robust, and consistant, etc...) by more users. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:53:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA09430 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09415 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA21733; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:46:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603181746.KAA21733@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #986 To: louie@TransSys.COM (Louis A. Mamakos) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:46:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603172353.SAA12163@wa3ymh.transsys.com> from "Louis A. Mamakos" at Mar 17, 96 06:53:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Of course, this is orthoginal to terminating T1 leased lines from > customer locations; some of them want their very own port from their > premise to "mine", which isn't "shared". You can fix part of the > problem space, but not all with one solution. Thus, the extreme > interest in directly terminating M13 framed DS3 circuits carrying 28 > T1 circuits. You have to have two clouds. You sell overcommit in the first, and you don't overcommit the second. At a 50% load, it costs on the order of twice as much for the committed rate. This assumes all common costs (hardware, installation, lines, etc.) have been subtracted out. For a 50% load on an overcommit, the cost is on the order of $60/month or less if you T1 from, say, Alternet or some other T1 provider into a local cloud and then charge customers a monthly flat rate to end-point; US West is on the order of $260/month for a T1 cloud connection. The customers pay the $80/month for the 56k cloud connections at their sites, making it $5/month for your T1 cloud connection for an overcommited cloud or $10/month if you don't overcommit. Leaves $1300/month for your feed, with 0 wire costs. A bit lower than the $220/month that Internet Direct is charging for 56k endpointing in their cloud, or the $300/month US West's partner charges. > The real interesting case is the 4-10 Mb/s customer access speed, and > how you aggregate/terminate those connections. Multi-T1 IMUXed? > SMDS? ATM? Who knows? The economics of these various solutions are > very interesting to ponder, analyze and/or take/make bets on. 8-). I bet *against* ATM. Leaky-bucket is OK for voice, and can be OK for video, assuming Cell animation with scene refresh. But it rots out for data, which *must* get there *eventually*. I have yet to see a working "source quench" without specialized hardware... besides, with the number of audit records that would have be generated, they'd be in the same boat as FR: no way to bill connect time. Not that that is a bad thing. 8-). > Sorry for the diversion; this is pretty far afield from FreeBSD, 'cept > that I run it on my machine and it works pretty good. No it isn't; it bears on what is a profitable use of time for drivers, protocol stacks, and the ability to use FreeBSD for ISP services based on communications throughput. Is UUNET still using those Sequent MP boxes? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 09:55:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA09539 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09524 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA21750; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:48:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603181748.KAA21750@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:48:33 -0700 (MST) Cc: wong@rogerswave.ca, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603180852.AAA00440@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Mar 18, 96 00:52:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I am using it right now. it is $39 Cdn/month. got alot of problem > > but this could be the ISP is too green > > Hi Ken, > curious what sort of thruput are you seeing... Ask him your real questions Amancio... Is Netrek playable, and do you get mbone. 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 10:05:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA10195 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA10190 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Mon, 18 Mar 96 13:05:21 -0500 Received: from compound (fergus-29.dialup.cfa.org) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Mon, 18 Mar 96 13:05:18 EST Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound (8.6.12/8.6.112) id MAA01533; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:05:17 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:05:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199603181805.MAA01533@compound> From: Tony Kimball To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603180449.UAA28357@freefall.freebsd.org> (owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org) Subject: IDE Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk All VC++ really buys you is compile/debug integration (done in emacs as noted) and visual resource editing. The template code generation is impressive at first, but amortized over the lifecycle of the code, it is almost a nil benefit. Xf users: How does xf compare, as a resource editor? //alk From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 10:17:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA10971 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA10819 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA06127; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:15:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:15:45 -0500 From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199603181815.NAA06127@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hackers References: <4ijdlv$qg1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.hackers you write: >> > Until you can demonstrate that NOTHING is (more) broken by doing so, >> > >> > I VOTE NO! >> >> Following this reasoning, you will not allow any extension whatsoever >> to the kernel or system libs or other critical parts of the system, >> because you often cannot demonstrate what you ask. >> >> > Stable is supposed to be just that -- stable. You cannot go breaking things >> > that work, even if they work only because of "two wrongs" >I think Richard is getting too defensive here, though his position is >understandable. >I belive that all the code that has been report as broken has been fixed in >both -current and -stable, with the possible exception of the NIS/YP stuff. >The issue is still up in the air, and for it to be decided we need some, >actually: a lot, of reports saying: I'm running phkmalloc in -stable and >it works fine. >So here is again the recipe: > 1. get src/lib/libc/stdlib/malloc.[3c] from -current and stick it > into your -stable source tree. > 2. make world. > 3. beat on it A LOT > 4. report result. >In particular I'd like reports from people running NIS/YP. If Im running 2.1-R, is there any easy way to get your malloc without having to rebuild the OS from source? Drop in a prebuilt libc.a maybe? If someone could give me a tar file with the necessary files I would be more than happy to use it. -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 10:17:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA10984 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA10959 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by mail11.digital.com (5.65v3.2/1.0/WV) id AA03513; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:01:26 -0500 Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA25887; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:01:24 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA04132; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:06:23 GMT Message-Id: <199603181806.SAA04132@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Joe Greco Cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 100BaseT multi-channel network cards In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:58:34 CST." <199603081558.JAA15260@brasil.moneng.mei.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5omega 10/6/94 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:06:11 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > (I don't want to span, but I haven't gotten any replies yet.) > > > > What fast twin-channel network cards are supported? I tried to look > > it up in the FAQ and handbook but the handbook's section is empty and > > the FAQ just tells me the chip's model number, not the cards' > > names.... > > > > Thanks > > Satoshi > > I don't know if they're supported, but Zynx and Cogent both have PCI quad > ethernet 100bT cards (based on 21140). I know it's not exactly what you > asked for, but maybe it's a useful lead. ;-) I have patches (which I have not yet integrated) for the Znyx 4 port DC21140 card. Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 10:32:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA11743 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from central.cis.upenn.edu (CENTRAL.CIS.UPENN.EDU [158.130.12.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA11710 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from gradine.cis.upenn.edu (GRADINE.CIS.UPENN.EDU [158.130.4.3]) by central.cis.upenn.edu (8.6.12/UPenn 1.4) with ESMTP id NAA10057 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:31:43 -0500 Received: by gradine.cis.upenn.edu id NAA03117; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:31:42 -0500 From: dherbst@gradient.cis.upenn.edu (Darrel Herbst) Posted-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:31:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199603181831.NAA03117@gradine.cis.upenn.edu> Subject: 3c509 mcast: host is down To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:31:42 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm having trouble with the ep driver for the 3c509. I'm opening up a socket as AF_INET and SOCK_DGRAM and then sending out packets on a multicast address... after about 100 packets or so, I start getting sendto errors on my socket that the "host is down". At first, I thought that by putting in the ether_addmulti calls that are in the if_ed.c driver would solve my problem, but it hasn't. I think what's happening is that when I add myself to the mcast group, the driver should put an entry for the mcast ip in the arp table. However, when this arp entry times out, it's not getting re-added to the table, but the system is complaining that the host is down. Is this a correct assessment of what's happening? Am I mistaken in thinking that the ether_addmulti call should add the mcast ip to the arp table as a mcast ip -- one that shouldn't time-out really? Has anyone encountered this problem? --dherbst@gradient.cis.upenn.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 10:32:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA11922 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA11908 Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:32:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:32:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199603181832.KAA11908@freefall.freebsd.org> To: jdl@jdl.com Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? Cc: hackers Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Remember also that there are about 4 variants of the P50. > {with,without} the routing SW, > {with,without} a builtin NT-1. > Needless to say, it's the routing SW that was running in > the $300-$400 range. But I need the routing SW and the builtin NT1, don't I? (I've been looking into buying an Ascend 75, due out in April.) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 10:34:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA12171 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:34:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12152 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:34:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id NAA01534; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:33:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:33:15 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Our Web/FTP server had to be rebooted again today after another instance of the "silent hang" problem (pingable, can switch virtual consoles, but no other activity possible). fsck ran and recovered the following files: twirl:/usr/httpd/lost+found# ls -l total 7 br-s--x-w- 17133 2505213093 3885937568 10, 1256784081 Sep 14 1946 #061456 -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 6049 Mar 16 14:09 #061466 -rw-rw-r-- 1 root wheel 802 Mar 15 19:33 #061467 brws-ws--- 32141 3468532397 3483065215 88, 2133786667 Apr 11 03:13 #061471 -rw-rw-r-- 1 root wheel 0 Mar 18 00:01 #061476 The filesystem holds our entire Apache document tree. The first two regular files are log files for one of our virtual domains, and I don't know what the third is. But what could have created the two block special files? A pipe? -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 11:16:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA21832 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mongoose.bostic.com (root@mongoose.BSDI.COM [205.230.230.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21803 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bostic@localhost) by mongoose.bostic.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id MAA21465; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:52:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:52:38 -0500 (EST) From: Keith Bostic Message-Id: <199603181752.MAA21465@mongoose.bostic.com> To: bostic@bostic.com Subject: Nvi alpha version 1.57 now available. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alpha version 1.57 of nex/nvi is now available for anonymous ftp from ftp.cs.berkeley.edu:ucb/4bsd/nvi.ALPHA.1.57.tar.gz, or alternatively, from bostic.com:pub/nvi.ALPHA.1.57.tar.gz. There are a few substantial/interesting changes in version 1.57: + A Perl5 interpreter has been added to nvi, courtesy of Sven Verdoolaege (skimo@dns.ufsia.ac.be). See the nvi/perl_api directory for more information. There is a (small) amount of information on both the Tcl and Perl5 scripting languages in the Vi Reference document as well. + You can now edit your colon command-line history. If you enter as the first character in the vi colon command-line, the screen will split and you will be editing a screen of your previous colon commands. Normal editing works, including colon commands in that screen. Entering a on any of the lines will cause the line to be executed in the context of the window in which you originally were entering a colon command. + The nvi distribution has been reworked to use the Free Software Foundation's autoconf software for automatic configuration and installation. This should make it a lot easier to configure and build nvi for various architectures. (I've removed the nvi/PORT directories, as well, making the distribution 200K smaller!) To build version 1.57, change directory into nvi/build, and enter: ./configure && make There are a few options that you can specify to the ./configure script to build nvi in different modes. For example, to build the Perl5 interpreter, enter: ./configure --enable-perlinterp See build/README for more information. + The vi screen refresh code has been reworked to match the historic vi practice. This is a long-standing bug where nvi's refresh algorithms didn't quite match what the historic vi did. You probably won't notice this, other than your screen will be less jerky in text input mode. + The file/path name completion character is now settable. Not only are and in common usage, apparently ^A is as well. So, the filec edit option is now a string option, which you should set to be the character string that you want to use for completion. A change log (in docs/changelog) is included in the distribution if you'd like to review other changes which have been made. As always, thank you for running nvi, and please let me know if you have any problems! Keith Bostic bostic@bostic.com uunet!bostic From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 11:27:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA23336 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23322 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA01635; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:24:55 -0800 Message-Id: <199603181924.LAA01635@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Jon Loeliger cc: Brian Tao , Darryl Okahata , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:31:02 CST." <199603181631.KAA04906@chrome.jdl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:24:55 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Jon Loeliger said: > So, like Brian Tao was saying to me just the other day: > > On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > > > > > I paid $750 or so for my Ascend Pipeline 50. > > > > Geez... our price is around $1500, I think. Bitsurfrs retail for > > about $450, street price of under $400, but Bell Canada's special for > > $299 is pretty much at cost. > > Remember also that there are about 4 variants of the P50. > {with,without} the routing SW, > {with,without} a builtin NT-1. > > Needless to say, it's the routing SW that was running in > the $300-$400 range. So are we doing apples to apples here? > > jdl I am running the P50 with builting NT-1 , snmp software and no router sw. Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 12:08:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA02346 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02334 Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA00304; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:07:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199603182007.MAA00304@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Jeffrey Hsu cc: jdl@jdl.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:32:45 PST." <199603181832.KAA11908@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:07:55 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Jeffrey Hsu said: > > Remember also that there are about 4 variants of the P50. > > {with,without} the routing SW, > > {with,without} a builtin NT-1. > > > Needless to say, it's the routing SW that was running in > > the $300-$400 range. > > But I need the routing SW and the builtin NT1, don't I? (I've been > looking into buying an Ascend 75, due out in April.) > For a single station you don't need the routing software. I have a P50 without routing software and most of the times when Bettina had her SGI Indy here she just telnet to my box to get out . She didn't like but she did 8) Enjoy, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 12:14:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA04507 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04487 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA00350; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:12:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199603182012.MAA00350@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: wong@rogerswave.ca, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:48:33 MST." <199603181748.KAA21750@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:12:51 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert said: > > > I am using it right now. it is $39 Cdn/month. got alot of problem > > > but this could be the ISP is too green > > > > Hi Ken, > > curious what sort of thruput are you seeing... > > Ask him your real questions Amancio... > > Is Netrek playable, and do you get mbone. 8-) 8-). > Yeap and how good is the quality of vic on a 10MBit net connection 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 12:20:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA06294 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06288 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:20:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA09894; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:20:43 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA16604; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:20:40 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id VAA26796; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:13:51 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603182013.VAA26796@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: building the 2.1 kernel To: dsantry@maccs.dcss.McMaster.CA (Douglas Santry) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:13:51 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603181501.KAA15948@church.dcss.mcmaster.ca> from "Douglas Santry" at Mar 18, 96 10:01:49 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Douglas Santry wrote: > Help! I can't find any documentation on how to build the kernel in > FreeBSD 2.1 which I bought on cdrom from Walnut Creek. It's in section 8 of the FAQ. The FAQ is in /usr/share/doc/FAQ/freebsd-faq.html, best viewed with a Web browser like lynx, or a graphical one. (There's also an ASCII version around.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 12:21:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA06361 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06336 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA09898; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:20:46 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA16606; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:20:44 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id VAA26817; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:14:45 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603182014.VAA26817@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Rebooting. To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:14:45 +0100 (MET) Cc: adf@fl.net.au (Andrew Foster) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960319020932.009c8a2c@mail.fl.net.au> from "Andrew Foster" at Mar 18, 96 04:09:32 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Andrew Foster wrote: > Hi, > > I've just replaced the SCSI controller in my 'dud' machine and it still > reboots. This is my dmesg as of a few hours after the reboot occurred : When does it reboot, or how do you trigger it? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 12:23:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA06848 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06816 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA09977; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:22:16 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA16689; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:22:16 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id VAA26881; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:20:16 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603182020.VAA26881@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: UPS (powerchute) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:20:15 +0100 (MET) Cc: didier@omnix.fr.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "didier@omnix.fr.org" at Mar 18, 96 09:56:02 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As didier@omnix.fr.org wrote: > > I've tried to run interactive Unix version of the powerchute program > from APC but it fails on what seems to be a "getlogin" system call. > > Is there any similar program for FreeBSD. There's an UPS daemon around, made by Alexis Yushin. The mailing list is upsd-list@ww.net, ask majordomo@ww.net for help. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 12:25:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA07344 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07306 Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA01382; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:25:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:25:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199603182025.PAA01382@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Joe Greco From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, dennis wrote: >> > >> > I still find it terribly interesting that people will spend a fortune >> > on horsepower of questionable necessity (like P6s and 166Mhz cpus to >> > run a terminal server) but want to use $30. async cards for the most >> > important bottleneck in their network. >> >> People will always be doing this because the level of knowledge >> required to make intelligent hardware purchases is beyond the average >> consumer. I agree with you, an ISP who sticks a bunch of high-speed >> serial ports connected to a bunch of Bitsurfrs to provide ISDN access >> is just asking for trouble. > There's nothing wrong with using bitsurfer....the issue that we were talking about was whether you run the data piece of the puzzle at 115,200 (minus the overhead) async or 128kbs sync. Same physical issues...just a different scenario. If I thought that people would use them I think a $195. sync solution (paired with a $265. bitsurfer would be a very efficient full 128kbs solution). But I don't think enough people would use it. Noone understands sync....and most isps wouldnt know how to sell it. Its amazing how many people pay lots extra for 28.8 modems but you cant convince them to pay (anything hardly) to get 30% more throughput. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 12:32:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA08535 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08523 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:32:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA22102; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:23:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603182023.NAA22102@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:23:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603180032.LAA21469@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Mar 18, 96 11:02:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > For crying out loud, wasn't it you, Terry, that was complaining about > > > not having an environment where you could click on a compiler error > > > and jump to the offending line of source? Emacs has been doing that > > > for as long as it's known what a mouse _is_. > > > > Now I need to complain that it's emacs... > > This legitimises me complaining that VC is a Windows tool, that it's a > Microsoft product, and that your socks are mismatched. The only valid corrolary in that list is "is a Windows tool". I didn't complain that it was GPL'ed ("an FSF product") and I didn't complain about an unrelated issue ("mismatched socks"). Bitching about the user interface is a legitimate gripe, considering *ALL* UNIX boxes come with vi and *NOT* all UNIX boxes come with Emacs. Complaining about "coulda shoulda mighta" re: Emacs coming with UNIX is moot: it doesn't. > It's a tool. It works. It does what is required. What more can you ask? > Political correctness? Sound samples on every keystroke? Sheesh. 8) How about "not having to learn a user interface"? Windows and Motif applications which are written in accordance with the style guides have the common attribute that once you learn one, you've learned them all (unless someone does something *stupid* and "enhances" the interface away from the style guide to make the product "better"). > > I personally *really* like "BattleMap", an IDE (Interactive Developement > > Environment). It doesn't run on FreeBSD, unfortunately. > > Why not? What can we do to rectify this horrific situation? 8) Port FreeBSD to SPARC, and make it run SunOS/Solaris binaries. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 12:34:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA09206 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA09174 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA00391; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:33:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199603182033.MAA00391@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:33:15 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:33:32 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, The only time that I have seen this is went my old scsi disk was trashing about. Cheers, Amancio >>> Brian Tao said: > Our Web/FTP server had to be rebooted again today after another > instance of the "silent hang" problem (pingable, can switch virtual > consoles, but no other activity possible). fsck ran and recovered the > following files: > > twirl:/usr/httpd/lost+found# ls -l > total 7 > br-s--x-w- 17133 2505213093 3885937568 10, 1256784081 Sep 14 1946 #0614 56 > -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 6049 Mar 16 14:09 #061466 > -rw-rw-r-- 1 root wheel 802 Mar 15 19:33 #061467 > brws-ws--- 32141 3468532397 3483065215 88, 2133786667 Apr 11 03:13 #0614 71 > -rw-rw-r-- 1 root wheel 0 Mar 18 00:01 #061476 > > The filesystem holds our entire Apache document tree. The first > two regular files are log files for one of our virtual domains, and I > don't know what the third is. But what could have created the two > block special files? A pipe? > -- > Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) > Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 12:43:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA11305 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebsd.netcom.com (freebsd.netcom.com [198.211.79.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11292 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by freebsd.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id OAA13297; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:47:11 -0600 From: bugs@freebsd.netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) Message-Id: <199603182047.OAA13297@freebsd.netcom.com> Subject: re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after BOOM! To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:47:10 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) > Our Web/FTP server had to be rebooted again today after another > instance of the "silent hang" problem (pingable, can switch virtual > consoles, but no other activity possible). fsck ran and recovered the > following files: > twirl:/usr/httpd/lost+found# ls -l > total 7 > br-s--x-w- 17133 2505213093 3885937568 10, 1256784081 Sep 14 1946 #061456 > -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 6049 Mar 16 14:09 #061466 > -rw-rw-r-- 1 root wheel 802 Mar 15 19:33 #061467 > brws-ws--- 32141 3468532397 3483065215 88, 2133786667 Apr 11 03:13 #061471 > -rw-rw-r-- 1 root wheel 0 Mar 18 00:01 #061476 Mugly ugly bit spray your file system I have not seen file system corruption after my silent reboots/hangs at all! Lucky me! And there hasn't been a shortage of them either ! :-) *** I would worry that this is another problem creeping up on you. *** I don't think this is the silent-reboot or swapper-deadlock problem. I have seen this awhile back in the pre 2.0.5R days. The files had also gotten the special chflags so you can't delete them. The modes, flags, lengths, etc are just garbage. Regards, Mark Hittinger Netcom/Dallas bugs@freebsd.netcom.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 13:06:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA15077 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA15042 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA26291; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:04:13 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603182104.PAA26291@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:04:13 -0600 (CST) Cc: taob@io.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603181619.KAA25833@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Mar 18, 96 10:19:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > However, for a workstation or PC at home, > > a serially-connected ISDN TA will work just fine. Heck, I can even > > connect a 28.8k modem to the POTS jack on my Bitsurfr as a dialin port > > and keep my analog voice line free. > > Yes, that is quite attractive :-) Additional "faaaascinating" info at http://www.mot.com/MIMS/ISG/Products/bitbrick/ which relates to our previous "safety" discussion... ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 13:40:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA22539 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:40:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.gbdata.com (tty24.com3.houston.net [198.65.148.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA22479 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gclarkii@localhost) by main.gbdata.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA06880; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:35:34 -0600 From: Gary Clark II Message-Id: <199603182135.PAA06880@main.gbdata.com> Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:35:34 -0600 (CST) Cc: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, rkw@dataplex.net, stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7645.827142776@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Mar 18, 96 09:52:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > The issue is still up in the air, and for it to be decided we need some, > actually: a lot, of reports saying: I'm running phkmalloc in -stable and > it works fine. > > So here is again the recipe: > 1. get src/lib/libc/stdlib/malloc.[3c] from -current and stick it > into your -stable source tree. > 2. make world. > 3. beat on it A LOT > 4. report result. > I've got stable on at least 4 customer machines with the phk-malloc. They all run fine and fast. As for beating on, my home machine only has 8 megs, runs X 24 hours a day (Due to the sparc monitor on it) and has been running stable for at least a month. My poor machine thrashs at the drop of a hat or even a glance:) > In particular I'd like reports from people running NIS/YP. Not here.. sorry > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. Gary -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) gclarkii@FreeBSD.ORG gclarkii@GBData.COM From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 13:47:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA24025 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:47:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA24001 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA05644; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:48:01 +0200 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:48:01 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable In-Reply-To: <199603181752.KAA00617@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > Actually, we aren't supposed to to be adding extensions to the system or > > > kernel in -stable. However, some things slip through because they are > > > > I would just like to remember that the introduction of slices left > > a bunch of disk-related stuff broken for a long time (I'd say > > between 2.0.5 and 2.1), and gave the final shot to msdosfs, which > > in turn caused some coexistence problems with msdos systems. > > And the slice support was only brought into -stable after much gnashing > of teeth and incredible PR by the release engineer. After all, he's the > guy who is responsible for making the release. > > > I agree that -stable must be stable, I am only criticizing the fact > > that the above requirement for making changes to -stable are too > > strict and impossible to fulfill (and I hope the maintainers of > > -stable use weaker requirements). > > Nope. There are *lots* of fixes and such made to stable that follow all > the rules set out. I bring in almost *all* of my changes into -stable > since they are completely disabled extensions (PC-CARD) and/or bug-fixes > for the current code (man page changes, simple bug-fixes, etc..) > > > > Broken-ness aside, there is also the appearance of brokeness. Some of > > > the strengths of phkmalloc for a developer are weaknesses to a user. > > > There are still bugs fixed in -current which haven't been brought back > > > into -stable that are revealed by phkmalloc. I've found at least one > > > new one, but I haven't been able to track it down (yet). > > > > Can you please mention where this one occurs ? > > I can't repeat it now, but it happened when I had a shell script with a > non-existant shell earlier yesterday. I'm not sure how to repeat it, > but in any case it *was* repeatable then, and it wasn't obvious which > program was generating the error. (I suspect /bin/sh). > > > > The appearance of bugs makes people think something is wrong when in > > > fact it might not be. Some of the recent kernel messages are a good > > > example of 'un-necessary' information. Whenever someone sees this > > > message, the user immediately assumes something is wrong when in fact > > > it's an information only message. In the same manner, the messages > > > phkmalloc spits out would only confuse normal users. > > > > This happens all the time with all parts of the system. fdisk had > > similar problems (or still has, I don't know) about an unnecessary > > ioctl for wd disks. > > And this 'bug' should be fixed. Just because it isn't in other parts of > the system doesn't make it 'OK' to do with phkmalloc. > > > If the problem with phkmalloc is in some verbose behaviour, then > > just rephrase the messages or make a less verbose mode the default > > before inserting it into -stable. > > The issue is that it's obvious that all of the possibilities have not > been found out with phkmalloc since there are still bugs popping up. > Just recently Poul fixed a fence-post error in the allocator, so I'm > still not convinced it's stable material. *However*, I *am* running it > on one of my -stable systems so that I can find possible bugs, but I'm > willing to take chances (and have good backups). > > When in doubt, I try to err on the conservative side which *may* > penalize some users, but it may also make the system more usable (and > secure, and robust, and consistant, etc...) by more users. OK. For some the phkmalloc is stable enough, the others think it should certainly not be as standard in stable while both sides (at least seem to) agree that people would benefit from it. So why not put there a separate brach, which would contain everything else standard but just the malloc replaced together with a warning sign? Or just put it among the other files and make it a command line switch for the Makefile? That everybody could get what they want - either real stability with bad memory allocation or stability with "not so stable malloc" + good memory allocation. (What happens if I allocate 1,000,000 structs containing a long and a pointer?) And the mailboxes would be saved of several and sevaral mails discussing this all. > > > Nate > Sander Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 14:17:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA01167 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA00619 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA22312; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:07:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603182207.PAA22312@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:07:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: rkw@dataplex.net, stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603180930.KAA00195@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Mar 18, 96 10:30:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A more sensible position would be to ask those who use phkmalloc to > report any brokennes evidenced by the new routine. People with existing systems that may be broken by it have no incentive to update unles they are already having problems. ,----. | | X `----+-------. | | X | | | | `-------' Testing simply will not be done for the areas marked 'X'. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 14:18:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA01201 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from polaris.canweb.ca (polaris.canweb.ca [204.225.44.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA01180 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:17:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from david@localhost) by polaris.canweb.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA02869; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:17:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:17:47 -0500 (EST) From: David Grant To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Max User Proc killing httpd? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm getting the dreaded: Error: HTTPd/CGI: could not fork new process, errno is 35 from my web server (NCSA, on FreeBSD-current from about a month ago). I've increased the maxusers and rebuilt the kernal, but am still getting this. Is this a maximum _per_User_ process limit I'm hitting? I think I remeber a thread about this somewhere in the past but I can't find anything about it in the current docs. Anyone know how to up this limit? Dave --------- David Grant CanWeb Internet Services Ltd. 519 332 6900 http://www.canweb.ca FAX 519 332 6464 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 15:09:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA10798 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (root@SLIP-BI-3.sarenet.es [193.148.39.82]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA10792 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from arnor.sarenet.es (borjam@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA00248 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:08:28 +0100 Message-ID: <314DECE9.41C67EA6@we.lc.ehu.es> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:08:25 +0100 From: Borja Marcos X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GAS question References: <199603180032.LAA21469@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > > Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > > > For crying out loud, wasn't it you, Terry, that was complaining about > > > not having an environment where you could click on a compiler error > > > and jump to the offending line of source? Emacs has been doing that > > > for as long as it's known what a mouse _is_. > > > > Now I need to complain that it's emacs... > > This legitimises me complaining that VC is a Windows tool, that it's a > Microsoft product, and that your socks are mismatched. > > It's a tool. It works. It does what is required. What more can you ask? > Political correctness? Sound samples on every keystroke? Sheesh. 8) Ahhhh, the GUI fever!!!!! You can write two identical programs, one in text mode and the other in a GUI with 3D look, etc. Both programs can be identical, and even the GUI version can be more cumbersome to use than the text-only version. (Something I see frequently, especially if you don't have a really excellent mouse and want to work fast). Most people will choose the graphical program. I have been helping a friend who is designing WWW pages and needed to change the decoration of 251 pages (TWO HUNDRED AND ONE). Do you know which Windows or Mac tool I used? NONE!!! I used sed and the shell. Try to do that with a GUI tool. I think there is simply a fashion towards GUIs. Surely my sed/shell scripts aren't terribly pretty, don't have a tridimensional look, but they change 250 pages in about 1 minute in a 386, and I relax while the machine works. As far as I can see... Unix commands have proven to be between the most useful programs written... I still find many uses for them for which no other program suits. Take the example I have mentioned. Borja. borjam@we.lc.ehu.es From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 15:12:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA11314 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA11306 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA01753 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:09:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:09:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199603182309.SAA01753@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > However, for a workstation or PC at home, >> > a serially-connected ISDN TA will work just fine. Heck, I can even >> > connect a 28.8k modem to the POTS jack on my Bitsurfr as a dialin port >> > and keep my analog voice line free. >> >> Yes, that is quite attractive :-) It ain't analog anymore. db ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 15:12:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA11346 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA11334 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA14102; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:11:29 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA18256; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:11:12 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA29026; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:05:16 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603182305.AAA29026@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: changes to cpio To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:05:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: haug@conterra.com, brian.haug@columbiasc.ncr.com Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603171738.MAA03032@dorothy.columbiasc.attgis.com> from "Brian R. Haug" at Mar 17, 96 12:38:00 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Brian R. Haug wrote: > The cpio utility gets into an infinite loop with the following input and > command line: > cpio -i > The cpio.out2 was constructed on a System V.4 system with the following > command sequence: > echo foo >a > ln a b > ln b c > ls | cpio -oc >cpio.out2 Thanks. Modulo some cosmetics (e.g. the function should be declared `static'), your fix seems to be the right thing. However :), it ain't really the fix for the infinite loop, it's only that you (correctly!) don't get to the spot where it loops infinitely. The fix for the looping (which should only have been reached if there were empty files in the archive) is: @@ -1226,7 +1234,6 @@ for (d = deferments; d != NULL; d = d->next) { - d = deferments; link_res = link_to_maj_min_ino (d->header.c_name, d->header.c_dev_maj, d->header.c_dev_maj, d->header.c_ino); It's very obvious, ain't it? :) I also had to introduce another variable that keeps track of the files those creation has been deferred. Their names should not be printed again in the `verbose' case. Btw., SysV doesn't grok its own archives. :-P Its cpio cannot handle all of the possible combinations on how to extract your given cpio archive: j@smiley 150% cpio -iv b c < cpio.out2 b UX:cpio: WARNING: Cannot link "a" and "c": No such file or directory 8 blocks Sounds confusing, eh! :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 15:51:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA14166 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14160 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA14695 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:51:02 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA18469 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:51:01 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA29294 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:20:09 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603182320.AAA29294@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:20:08 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Brian Tao" at Mar 18, 96 01:33:15 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Brian Tao wrote: > The filesystem holds our entire Apache document tree. The first > two regular files are log files for one of our virtual domains, and I > don't know what the third is. But what could have created the two > block special files? A pipe? Trash written all over an i-node block. Is this with an `ahc' driver (it's the only one where i've ever seen this, too)? If so, is this plain 2.1R, or a newer one? Justin was sure that he's been fixing these kind of problems meanwhile. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 16:18:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA15508 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15501 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA22538; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:12:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603190012.RAA22538@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: tinguely@plains.nodak.edu (Mark Tinguely) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:12:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603181602.KAA03293@plains.nodak.edu> from "Mark Tinguely" at Mar 18, 96 10:02:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think US West figures cable modems will displace ISDN in a couple years, > so why bother especially in the "sticks" which is where their customers live. > US West has merged/bought a cable company recently and if they don't > offer phone/video/data services in their region someone else will and take > their whole market. TCI is prepared to do exactly that. They have been selling dark fibers for at least two year -- one from Provo to SLC that I know about. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 16:19:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA15602 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (root@digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15595 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bogawa@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) id QAA01594; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:19:45 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:19:43 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Ogawa at Work To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? In-Reply-To: <199603182033.MAA00391@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > Hi, > > The only time that I have seen this is went my old scsi disk was trashing > about. > Cheers, > Amancio > > >>> Brian Tao said: > > Our Web/FTP server had to be rebooted again today after another > > instance of the "silent hang" problem (pingable, can switch virtual > > consoles, but no other activity possible). fsck ran and recovered the > > following files: [...] On the silent hang problem, two things: 1. Anecdote: Our system hung, and when it came back, we had a full /usr . Culprit: httpd being unable to create a socket (and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying). The log file ended up being over 2Gig in size. We were running NCSA httpd 1.5a -- we've been having trouble with it, so I'm not sure if it was NCSA, or the hang, or both together, or NCSA+lots of open files, or... I'm not sure if this happened before the system hung, or after, though, so this could be coincidental. 2. Speculation: Someone had mentioned that a certain thing looked like the system had stopped switching between different processes. I think that this system hang looks like that, too (has everyone else made this connection/dismissed this connection and it just took me this long?) Aren't the keyboard switch and ping responses interrupt driven instead of being based on the kernel preempting? If one process were to run constantly (without anything else to run), it wouldn't be able to create network sockets, since the tcp code would never run. I didn't trace through the code that generates the error carefully, but it might keep trying over and over, and be unable to do anything (on the other hand, it did seem to be able to write to the filesystem). Bryan K. Ogawa Questions or Problems with NetVoyage? help@netvoyage.net Check out the NetVoyage HelpWeb at.. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 17:06:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA18244 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA18239 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA22702; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:58:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603190058.RAA22702@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: NFS problems w/ HPUX 9.0.5 To: koshy@india.hp.com (A JOSEPH KOSHY) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:58:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603180716.AA073173379@fakir.india.hp.com> from "A JOSEPH KOSHY" at Mar 18, 96 12:46:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > tl> Can you toggle whether or not you do client caching on the client, or > tl> server caching on the server? > tl> What version of the NFS protocol are you using? > > The FreeBSD boxes are stock 2.1.0-R; the HPUX machine doesn't seem to be > running NFS v3 (atleast nothing was mentioned in the documentation). > How can I turn off client side caching on FreeBSD? I tried mounting the > NFS disk synchronous but it didn't help. There is a compile-time variable; you will need to hack a source file in /sys/nfs... it's a one-line change to toggle caching. I think that recent kernels let you poke it with sysctl as a debug variable, if you have those enabled. You may want to turn *on* leases on your next build as well, since it reflects on cache coherency. Unfortunately, I can't rebuild your testbed easily... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 17:53:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA21204 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from irbs.irbs.com (irbs.com [199.182.75.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21195 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jc@localhost) by irbs.irbs.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) id UAA14423; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:53:04 -0500 From: John Capo Message-Id: <199603190153.UAA14423@irbs.irbs.com> Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:53:03 -0500 (EST) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com In-Reply-To: <199603182135.PAA06880@main.gbdata.com> from Gary Clark II at "Mar 18, 96 03:35:34 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In particular I'd like reports from people running NIS/YP. I am running stable/YP/phk-malloc on my 3 machine net and on a client's 4 machine ISP net. I have not seen any problems. John Capo jc@irbs.com IRBS Engineering High performance FreeBSD systems (305) 792-9551 Unix/Internet Consulting - ISP Solutions From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 17:57:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA21408 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from MediaCity.com (root@easy1.mediacity.com [205.216.172.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21390 Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brian@localhost) by MediaCity.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA20972; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:01:50 -0800 From: Brian Litzinger Message-Id: <199603190201.SAA20972@MediaCity.com> Subject: Re: sync To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:01:49 -0800 (PST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603182025.PAA01382@etinc.com> from dennis at "Mar 18, 96 03:25:38 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dennis wrote: > >> > I still find it terribly interesting that people will spend a fortune > >> > on horsepower of questionable necessity (like P6s and 166Mhz cpus to > >> > run a terminal server) but want to use $30. async cards for the most > >> > important bottleneck in their network. > > If I thought that people would use them I think a $195. sync solution > (paired with a > $265. bitsurfer would be a very efficient full 128kbs solution). But I don't > think enough > Dennis I do. Used to program Z8530's in my sleep for DUAL DMA operation to run video teleconferencing at 3MBits/sec via satelite. was real cool. I was thinking of the doing a driver for the Z8530, there is support for it in Linux. On the other hand, how much trouble would it be to hook a BSPro to one of your cards? I was going to try, but now I can just ask you. -- Brian Litzinger Powered by FreeBSD http[s]://www.mpress.com Unlike Hitler, who brought the Jews to the furnace, Clinton brought the furnace to the Branch Davidians. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 17:57:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA21428 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wa3ymh.transsys.com (#6@wa3ymh.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.42]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA21407 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wa3ymh.transsys.com (#6@localhost.TransSys.COM [127.0.0.1]) by wa3ymh.transsys.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA13663; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:56:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603190156.UAA13663@wa3ymh.transsys.com> To: Terry Lambert cc: alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #986 In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:46:09 MST." <199603181746.KAA21733@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:56:53 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Of course, this is orthoginal to terminating T1 leased lines from > > customer locations; some of them want their very own port from their > > premise to "mine", which isn't "shared". You can fix part of the > > problem space, but not all with one solution. Thus, the extreme > > interest in directly terminating M13 framed DS3 circuits carrying 28 > > T1 circuits. > > You have to have two clouds. You sell overcommit in the first, and > you don't overcommit the second. At a 50% load, it costs on the order > of twice as much for the committed rate. This assumes all common > costs (hardware, installation, lines, etc.) have been subtracted > out. The problem isn't a technical one; it's a marketing and product packaging one. It's like trying to argue over what color it should be :-) > 8-). I bet *against* ATM. Leaky-bucket is OK for voice, and can be > OK for video, assuming Cell animation with scene refresh. But it rots > out for data, which *must* get there *eventually*. I have yet to see > a working "source quench" without specialized hardware... besides, > with the number of audit records that would have be generated, they'd > be in the same boat as FR: no way to bill connect time. Not that that > is a bad thing. 8-). ATM may be OK in the local loop as a fine-grain muxing scheme, so long as you don't over commit the facilities. Of course, the problem is to have the LEC's actually offer ATM as a service... On the other hand, DS3 Frame Relay seems to work Just Fine.. > > Sorry for the diversion; this is pretty far afield from FreeBSD, 'cept > > that I run it on my machine and it works pretty good. > > No it isn't; it bears on what is a profitable use of time for drivers, > protocol stacks, and the ability to use FreeBSD for ISP services based > on communications throughput. Is UUNET still using those Sequent MP > boxes? Not for years; certainly not since I've been working there (about 2.5 years now). It's been a combination of Sparc and Pentium/BSDI platforms. There's a bunch of 'em these days. I think we've got on the order of 20 or 25 machines doing NNTP feeds at the moment. The Pentium machines are mostly CDDI attached, and we *sustain* about 30 Mb/s of just NNTP news feeds. High pressure USENET sewage pumping station.. louie From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 17:57:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA21502 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21497 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA25896; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:51:46 +1100 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:51:46 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603190151.MAA25896@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, nate@sri.MT.net Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I would just like to remember that the introduction of slices left >> a bunch of disk-related stuff broken for a long time (I'd say >> between 2.0.5 and 2.1), and gave the final shot to msdosfs, which >> in turn caused some coexistence problems with msdos systems. Wrong. Slices were introduced into -current shortly after 2.0R, before 2.0.5 or -stable existed. Slices fixed coexistence problems with msdos systems. See the cvs history. >And the slice support was only brought into -stable after much gnashing >of teeth ... Wrong. See above. >... and incredible PR by the release engineer. After all, he's the >guy who is responsible for making the release. Right :-). He had to write a lot of code to fully exploit the features of the slice interface. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 19:13:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA26471 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from wa3ymh.transsys.com (#6@wa3ymh.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.42]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA26465 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from wa3ymh.transsys.com (#6@localhost.TransSys.COM [127.0.0.1]) by wa3ymh.transsys.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA13747; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:11:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603190311.WAA13747@wa3ymh.transsys.com> To: Joe Greco cc: taob@io.org (Brian Tao), hackers@freebsd.org From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: Microsoft "Get ISDN"? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:30:40 CST." <199603181730.LAA25980@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:11:09 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On the other hand, you can get pro-active maintenance stats on the PRI that you'll never get on POTS lines. You'll be able to tell if you line is clean or not by looking at line coding errors, as well as the ESF performance data stats, which are also protected by a CRC-6. Plus, when you call in a broken T1 or PRI, the phone company tends to react more seriously to it.. And best of all, you have a bunch fewer wires to break, both on the POTS side and if you do it right, no RS232 wires. louie > Basically I will probably never get past my distaste of any sort of > equipment where I have to take down multiple circuits to get my hands on a > single device. That's one of the reasons I don't like in{t,f}ernal modems > and ISDN PRI gizmos, etc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 19:27:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA27693 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA27684 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:27:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA27505; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:32:33 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603190202.MAA27505@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: IDE To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:32:32 +1030 (CST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603181805.MAA01533@compound> from "Tony Kimball" at Mar 18, 96 12:05:17 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tony Kimball stands accused of saying: > > Xf users: How does xf compare, as a resource editor? Xf is wonderful, but tied to outdated versions of Tcl/Tk. If someone were to bring it up to date, the Tk community would be extatic. Unfortunately, Sven appears to have better things to do with his time 8( > //alk -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 19:44:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA29719 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA29433 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA27673; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:56:34 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603190226.MAA27673@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: GAS question To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:56:33 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603182023.NAA22102@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 18, 96 01:23:54 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > > Now I need to complain that it's emacs... > > > > This legitimises me complaining that VC is a Windows tool, that it's a > > Microsoft product, and that your socks are mismatched. > > The only valid corrolary in that list is "is a Windows tool". I didn't > complain that it was GPL'ed ("an FSF product") and I didn't complain > about an unrelated issue ("mismatched socks"). Actually, the complaints are all irrelevant, yours and mine both. The objects are _tools_. Personal bias aside, both work reasonably well. > Bitching about the user interface is a legitimate gripe, considering > *ALL* UNIX boxes come with vi and *NOT* all UNIX boxes come with Emacs. Not all Windows boxes come with VC either. (Fortunately 8) > How about "not having to learn a user interface"? Windows and Motif > applications which are written in accordance with the style guides > have the common attribute that once you learn one, you've learned > them all (unless someone does something *stupid* and "enhances" the > interface away from the style guide to make the product "better"). This is pedantry. You can use the same argument to insist that all APIs should be the same. Or that hammers should have the same 'user interface' that screwdrivers do. You've just chosen somewhere else to draw your version of the grey line. It's a popular position for it; Apple made millions out of it, but then twenty billion flies can't be wrong either. > > > I personally *really* like "BattleMap", an IDE (Interactive Developement > > > Environment). It doesn't run on FreeBSD, unfortunately. > > > > Why not? What can we do to rectify this horrific situation? 8) > > Port FreeBSD to SPARC, and make it run SunOS/Solaris binaries. An answer to the first would have been enough; "proprietary software". Yuck. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 22:40:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA10369 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA10364 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0tyv5O-0003wVC; Mon, 18 Mar 96 22:40 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA01697; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:39:59 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: Narvi cc: Nate Williams , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:48:01 +0200." Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:39:57 +0000 Message-ID: <1695.827217597@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So why not put there a separate brach, which would contain everything > else standard but just the malloc replaced together with a warning sign? > Or just put it among the other files and make it a command line switch > for the Makefile? That everybody could get what they want - either real > stability with bad memory allocation or stability with "not so stable > malloc" + good memory allocation. (What happens if I allocate 1,000,000 > structs containing a long and a pointer?) Hrm, Hrm, I'd like to point out that phkmalloc is perfectly fine, and that no problems have been filed against it for the last N months. The problem is that >other programs< foul up their nest when using malloc. phkmalloc detects this and complains... Yes, we >may< indeed consider shipping an replacement libc. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 23:20:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA11666 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:20:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (omega.physik.fu-berlin.de [130.133.3.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11661 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mordillo (lislip.physik.fu-berlin.de [130.133.3.126]) by omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA20182 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:20:37 +0100 (MET) Received: (from news@localhost) by mordillo (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA03247; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:11:07 +0100 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Path: graichen From: graichen@omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (Thomas Graichen) Newsgroups: local.freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: NFS problems w/ HPUX 9.0.5 Date: 18 Mar 1996 21:11:06 GMT Organization: his FreeBSD box :-) Lines: 31 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4ikjha$33t@mordillo.physik.fu-berlin.de> References: <199603180716.AA073173379@fakir.india.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.physik.fu-berlin.de X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A JOSEPH KOSHY (koshy@india.hp.com) wrote: : Well I initially suspected the FreeBSD NFS client side code as probably : returning the wrong buffer to the reader. However, FreeBSD<->FreeBSD : NFS mounts work fine so I ruled that out. But since HPUX<->HPUX mounts work : fine too I'm puzzled. ... : The FreeBSD boxes are stock 2.1.0-R; the HPUX machine doesn't seem to be : running NFS v3 (atleast nothing was mentioned in the documentation). : How can I turn off client side caching on FreeBSD? I tried mounting the : NFS disk synchronous but it didn't help. maybe it's an HPUX problem - a friend of mine (f.weich@physik.tu-chemnitz.de) had the same problem with DEC OSF/1 (Digital UNIX now :-) - server and HPUX - cleint i think - he asked in both camps and the technicians of both camps - he did'nt get an answer until today and both camps gave up on the problem - you may ask him to find out if it is the same problem as you have (he had a reproducable test for it) i also read about it again in comp.unix.osf.osf1 - don't remember exactly if it also was HPUX - but i'm close to shure t -- thomas graichen graichen@mail.physik.fu-berlin.de graichen@FreeBSD.org perfection is reached, not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away antoine de saint-exupery From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 18 23:42:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA12238 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA12233 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:42:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.atk.hpy.fi (mail.atk.hpy.fi [192.163.115.3]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id XAA23435 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:42:47 -0800 Received: from arthur.atk.hpy.fi by marvin.atk.hpy.fi (JAA06916); Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:31:29 +0200 Received: (from peter@localhost) by arthur.atk.hpy.fi (8.6.9/8.6.6) id JAA00751; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:35:20 +0200 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:35:19 +0200 (EET) From: Peter Kangas To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk unsubscribe From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 00:34:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA14292 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu (root@RICH.ISDN.BCM.TMC.EDU [128.249.250.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA14274 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rich@localhost) by rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA03359; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:34:11 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:34:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199603190834.CAA03359@rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu> From: Rich Murphey To: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199603172003.VAA03617@mordillo> (message from Thomas Graichen on Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:03:46 +0100 (MET)) Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD Reply-to: rich@lamprey.utmb.edu Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I heard from Thomas Graichen that the mathematica floating licence manager does not work correctly with FreeBSD. I just thought I'd mention that my success with Mathematica was with a machine-specific licences. I don't run a separate license server but rather installed a 'mathpass' file on a single machine. You run 'mathinfo' on that machine, give the output of 'mathinfo' to the Wolfram sales department and they gave you a valid 'mathpass' entry which you install on the machine which you intend to run mathematica. That doesn't solve the prolbem if you really do want a floating 'network' license, but I can tell you that this works just fine. Rich From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 00:39:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA14449 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA14442 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:38:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id JAA02235; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:28:32 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199603190828.JAA02235@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: CFV: adding phk_malloc to -stable To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:28:31 +0100 (MET) Cc: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1695.827217597@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Mar 19, 96 06:39:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hrm, Hrm, I'd like to point out that phkmalloc is perfectly fine, and that > no problems have been filed against it for the last N months. > > The problem is that >other programs< foul up their nest when using malloc. > phkmalloc detects this and complains... > > Yes, we >may< indeed consider shipping an replacement libc. Note that this will not interfere with statically linked binaries such as /bin/sh (Nate was suspecting a bug in /bin/sh). Is this good news (no risk of breaking things in /bin and /sbin) or bad news (no chance to test widely the above programs) ? Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 01:45:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA17618 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 01:45:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA17607 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 01:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA25090 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:44:23 +0100 Message-Id: <199603190944.KAA25090@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: Aust. ISDN, was Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 10:41:44 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (Hackers; FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <199603171912.MAA19774@phaeton.artisoft.com>; from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 17, 96 12:12 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert claims: > If you are talking cards, well, they can be shoved through the > approval process by an enterprising importer who wants to make > his money on the margins on imported hardware. You obviously haven't seen the international telco's ideas of approval. They differ completely from one country to another - for example, in England they destroy the equipment to see how much it takes to destroy it (overvoltage and such). In general, the cost of approval only makes it interesting for large markets, such as Germany. How many international comms products are available in Portugal or France, for example? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 01:48:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA17810 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 01:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA17797 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 01:48:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA25206 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:46:59 +0100 Message-Id: <199603190946.KAA25206@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: Aust. ISDN, was Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: peter@jhome.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 10:43:55 MET From: Greg Lehey In-Reply-To: <199603171951.DAA18743@jhome.DIALix.COM>; from "Peter Wemm" at Mar 18, 96 3:51 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Who's talking about switches? The US stuff is incompatable (protocol > wise) with ours anyway.. (Our ISDN flavour is closer to the European one, and > will be identical soon, once the exchange upgrades are finished). Which US stuff are you talking about? My understanding is that DSS1 (Q.931) is an international standard, except that it's not installed everywhere yet. How many other standards exist in the US? > We've been talking about $12,000+ fines for plugging in an ISDN card into a PC > and using your own drivers.. Interesting. In Germany, the Telco supplies the NT1 as well, but they allow you to connect anything to it (as far as I can tell; other German subscribers please correct me). Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 02:06:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA18626 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA18614 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:05:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jtonsing@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA02594 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:05:10 +0200 From: Johann Tonsing Message-Id: <199603191005.MAA02594@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Apology for "message added to archive" messages To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:05:09 +0200 (SAT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Please accept my apology for the recent spate of "Your message was added to the archive" messages. These mail messages were automatically generated by a mailing list archiver. I was not aware that this was happening. Thanks to Poul-Henning Kamp for pointing out the problem. (To be fair to myself, I must mention that the default configuration file enables this behaviour - and who has the time to read manuals in their entirety anyway. I'm taking full responsibility and blame - all the "debit" - however.) Everybody over here had a good laugh at my expense. I've collected as many dunce-type trophies as I could find and am "proudly" displaying them on top of my monitor. My kind colleagues suggested that I get a 10.x.x.x IP address. Perhaps plugging out the Ethernet card would be safer. Or is a brain transplant the answer? Here's some more background to the "incident". I have been evaluating mailing list archiving software, specifically software to convert mailing list archives to HTML format. Due to the high traffic on the FreeBSD mailing lists, the Hypermail package, which generates a threaded index, was using too much CPU time. An alternative package is MHOnArc, which takes more CPU time per message added for small archives, but for which the time taken per message increases more slowly as the archive size increases. I've been testing the packages using more than 1000 messages of the FreeBSD Hackers archive. Since the programs generate seperate files for each message, running the programs and using ls -lT | cut -c48-55 | sort | awk -F: '{x=($1*60+$2)*60+$3; if(NR>1) {print x-y;} y=x;}' | sort and gnuplot results in a graph of time taken per message vs number of messages in archive. The problem is that the time taken per message increases exponentially with archive size for the packages that do threading. As the MailArchive software does not generate a threaded index, this package seems quite attractive - except for the occurrence of some "interesting" effects unless one comments out the MailCommand: /usr/bin/mail -s \"MailArchive Reply\" $Sender < $MailMessage line in the config file. Apologies yet again. Regards Johann -- jtonsing@mikom.csir.co.za, Fax: Int+27 12 841-4570, S-mail: 173 Duxbury Rd, Hillcrest, 0083 Pretoria, South Africa. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 02:13:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA18949 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from dde.dde.dk (dde.dde.dk [152.95.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA18935 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by dde.dde.dk (5.61/9.3) id AA12470; Tue, 19 Mar 96 11:14:17 +0100 Received: from nessie.dde.dk by dde.dde.dk (5.61/9.3) with SMTP id AA06178; Tue, 19 Mar 96 11:14:16 +0100 Received: by nessie.dde.dk (5.61/9.3) id AA18550; Tue, 19 Mar 96 11:13:31 GMT From: kim@dde.dk (Kim Andersen) Message-Id: <9603191113.AA18550@nessie.dde.dk> Subject: Re: IDE To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 11:13:30 DNT Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603190202.MAA27505@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from "Michael Smith" at Mar 19, 96 12:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Tony Kimball stands accused of saying: > > > > Xf users: How does xf compare, as a resource editor? > > Xf is wonderful, but tied to outdated versions of Tcl/Tk. If someone were > to bring it up to date, the Tk community would be extatic. Unfortunately, > Sven appears to have better things to do with his time 8( > > > //alk > Sven Delmas recently announced a patch made by Timberwolf, to bring XF upto Tcl7.4/Tk4.0, (might work with Tcl7.5/Tk4.1). The patch can be found at: http://www.cimetrix.com/sven regards kim From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 02:22:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA19372 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dima@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA19365 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:22:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603191022.CAA19365@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: new sup server To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:22:40 -0800 (PST) Cc: current@freebsd.org From: dima@freebsd.org (Dima Ruban) X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi there! New sup server for current/stable/cvs is operational and ready. Please use it. (This server is on T3, so it should work pretty fast). Questions and/or comments to dima@best.net. Oops, almost forgot. This is sup5.freebsd.org Enjoy. -- dima From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 02:29:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA19679 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ford.apnpc.com.au (ford.apnpc.com.au [203.12.233.198]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA19600 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from zaphod (zaphod.apnpc.com.au [203.12.233.194]) by ford.apnpc.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA20223; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:27:15 +1000 Message-Id: <199603191027.UAA20223@ford.apnpc.com.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Mark Cheeseman" Organization: Why is there a Z where the S should be? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:27:15 +1100 Subject: Re: Comparing FreeBSD and other OSs (fwd) Reply-to: cheese@asstdc.com.au CC: michael butler Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Folks, 'scuze me jumping in here. This message was forwarded to me, and I thought I might add something to the discussion. I don't actually subscribe to the list, but I do run FreeBSD and have some experience with magazine reviews and comparisons > > > We contact a number of manufacturers and computer magazines, > > > world-wide, and set up a benchmark web server machine. Every day, > > > we change the operating system, but we don't tell anybody what the > > > OS de jour is. We invite everybody on the web to try to access it, > > > and to tell us what they think of the perceived response time. At > > > the same time, we monitor the performance (and, of course, down time > > > if the be any). > > > > > > This would have the advantage of being a benchmark in the public eye, > > > and one in which the BSD OSs would have a clear lead. Any thoughts? The first problem I see is that the Net is too unpredictable (wrt transit times and loading) to be usable as a test-bed. Even if you could factor in the variance of packet loss and transit times (which obviously impact perceived performance), there's still the issue of server load. You can't expect everybody to check a URL every day, at the same time every day, and do the same things on the site every day. People are unpredictable, and therefore so would the results be. So you'd need a well traffic'ed site on a fast link in order to really show up the differences. I don't think yahoo or playboy.com would want to risk losing traffic on such an experiment :-) Plus, you're relying on the subjective assessment of unknown people, who will probably themselves face differing levels of congestion on their local links. In order to collate the results you have to quantify these results in some say, and you'll never be able to satisfy your audience that the results are meaningful. That said, I'd love to see a test of this sort done, and If I ever get the time I'll probably do it myself. But it needs to be done in a controlled environment, on an isolated LAN with something like WebStone. That way, you have quantifiable results, independent of any outside influence such as Net traffic and the mood that somebody happens to be in on that particular day. > > I think this would be far more valuable if somebody else "thought of it", > > a magazine for instance, since they are far less likely to be accused > > of rigging the demo. There's a few commercial reailties that make it unlikely that a magazine would conduct such a comparison, but I won't go into them here. -- Mark Cheeseman, Technical Manager, APN Computing Group Pty Ltd PO Box 1287, North Sydney 2059, AU. http://www.apnpc.com.au/ cheese@asstdc.com.au Tel +61 2 9936 8689 Fax +61 2 9955 8871 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 02:49:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA20780 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:49:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20775 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00671 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:49:02 +0100 Message-Id: <199603191049.LAA00671@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: How to develop software and track current? To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 11:46:24 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: current@freebsd.org (Users of FreeBSD -current) X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm currently about to start some active work on the ISDN software, and I face a problem: I'm also tracking -current. How to I ensure that I get my updates to -current and also maintain the modifications I make to the ISDN software? The problem is compounded by the fact that I don't get on very well with cvs, so if the following text contains nonsense, please be nice :-) I can see a number of possibilities: 1. Create a new cvs tag, say "2.2-CURRENT-grog", and put all my changes there. The problem I anticipate here are that I won't be able to automatically track the ctm updates. 2. Check my changes in to 2.2-CURRENT every evening. This seems to have a number of potential problems: first, if I forget to check in, I lose my updates, and secondly, somebody else might check in files which I have changed. Presumably the latter action would cause the cvs update to blow up. 3. Create a new directory outside the control of cvs. This sounds like a real kludge. This is obviously a problem that a lot of people have already solved, at least to their own satisfaction. If we can come up with a clean, consistent way of doing it, I'll gladly contribute some documentation on the subject. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 03:30:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA22292 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 03:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA22285 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 03:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA03482 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:30:09 +0100 Message-Id: <199603191130.MAA03482@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #986 To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 12:27:29 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) In-Reply-To: <199603170510.XAA16862@compound>; from "Tony Kimball" at Mar 16, 96 11:10 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tony Kimball writes: > From: > > BTW: I am looking around for ADSL modems anyone knows where I can > get two cheap ones! > > PairGain claims their 2d generation models will be out in June/July > "between $600 and $1000". This is the "Etherphone" model. With two > of these and a dry pair, I should get 4Mb/s downloads and 640Kb/s > uploads through my ISP. What is ADSL? This is the first time I've heard of it. Are the speeds you mention without compression? > ISDN is obsolete. Is ADSL available everywhere? Does every ISP who supports ISDN also support ADSL? Can you use it for telephones and faxes? If not, you can't make that claim. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 04:01:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA23855 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from rogerswave.ca (mail.rogerswave.ca [198.231.117.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA23850 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (wong.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by rogerswave.ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA22106; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:01:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:51:55 -0500 (EST) From: Wong To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-Reply-To: <199603180852.AAA00440@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > Hi Ken, > curious what sort of thruput are you seeing... Script started on Tue Mar 19 06:43:30 1996 bash# tcpblast news 20 .................... 20 KB in 499 msec = 328336.7 kbit/s = 41042.1 kByte/s = 0.0 MByte/s bash# tcpblast news 10 .......... 10 KB in 22 msec = 3723636.4 kbit/s = 465454.5 kByte/s = 0.5 MByte/s bash# tcpblast freefall.freebsd.org 10 .......... 10 KB in 22 msec = 3723636.4 kbit/s = 465454.5 kByte/s = 0.5 MByte/s bash# tcpblast freefall.freebsd.org 20 .................... 20 KB in 1172 msec = 139795.2 kbit/s = 17474.4 kByte/s = 0.0 MByte/s bash# exit exit Script done on Tue Mar 19 06:44:48 1996 their upstream ( from my machine to other ) is around 50kBytes/s and downstream is about 500kBytes/s all cases assume nobody is on the network. i.e. I got all the bandwidth. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "we come with nothing, and we leave with nothing" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 04:07:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA24279 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rogerswave.ca (mail.rogerswave.ca [198.231.117.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA24274 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (wong.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by rogerswave.ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA22551; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:08:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:58:37 -0500 (EST) From: Wong To: Terry Lambert cc: "Amancio Hasty Jr." , terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-Reply-To: <199603181748.KAA21750@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I am using it right now. it is $39 Cdn/month. got alot of problem > > > but this could be the ISP is too green > > > > Hi Ken, > > curious what sort of thruput are you seeing... > > Ask him your real questions Amancio... > > Is Netrek playable, and do you get mbone. 8-) 8-). Haven't try it yet. busy fighting them to remove the firewall. those idiots trying to control everything with the firewall. but think we have a legal ground to have them removed. anyway, when I do I will post the benchmark. BTW, where do I get Netrek. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "we come with nothing, and we leave with nothing" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 04:20:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA25144 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [198.81.209.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA25139 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA00271; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:22:31 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1.lightside.net To: Douglas Santry cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: building the 2.1 kernel In-Reply-To: <199603181501.KAA15948@church.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Douglas Santry wrote: > > Help! I can't find any documentation on how to build the kernel in FreeBSD 2.1 > which I bought on cdrom from Walnut Creek. I installed the kernel sources > but the Makefile only builds the libkern stuff. How do I build the kernel? > Or where can I get the docs on how to build the kernel? See Chapter 5 of the FreeBSD handbook. It covers the topic pretty thoroughly. Basically you need to make a custom kernel configuration file, then use the "config" program to set up the files, then type make in the new directory that config creates. The FreeBSD handbook is in HTML format in /usr/share/doc/handbook, and the latest version is at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jake Hamby | E-Mail: jehamby@lightside.com Student, Cal Poly University, Pomona | System Administrator, JPL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 04:20:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA25167 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from rogerswave.ca (mail.rogerswave.ca [198.231.117.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA25159 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (wong.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by rogerswave.ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA23394; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:20:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:11:19 -0500 (EST) From: Wong To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-Reply-To: <199603182012.MAA00350@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > Yeap and how good is the quality of vic on a 10MBit net connection 8) I wish I have all the toys like you guys. In a couple of months, maybe I will get some multimedia stuff to try. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "we come with nothing, and we leave with nothing" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 04:25:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA25456 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [198.81.209.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA25447 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA00291; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:26:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1.lightside.net To: Joerg Wunsch cc: Douglas Santry , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: building the 2.1 kernel In-Reply-To: <199603182013.VAA26796@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Douglas Santry wrote: > > > Help! I can't find any documentation on how to build the kernel in > > FreeBSD 2.1 which I bought on cdrom from Walnut Creek. > > It's in section 8 of the FAQ. > > The FAQ is in /usr/share/doc/FAQ/freebsd-faq.html, best viewed with a > Web browser like lynx, or a graphical one. (There's also an ASCII > version around.) > > -- > cheers, J"org Don't forget Chapter 5 of the FreeBSD Handbook, which is IMHO much more useful since it covers building the kernel from start to finish with a description of all the important keywords. It's in /usr/share/doc/handbook/handbook.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jake Hamby | E-Mail: jehamby@lightside.com Student, Cal Poly University, Pomona | System Administrator, JPL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 04:31:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA25575 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from rogerswave.ca (mail.rogerswave.ca [198.231.117.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA25567 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (wong.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by rogerswave.ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA26890; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:31:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:22:12 -0500 (EST) From: Wong To: Peter Dufault cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cable modems In-Reply-To: <199603181228.HAA04379@hda.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Peter Dufault wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > > > Cable modems are almost 700 times faster than 14.4 modems and > > > nearly 80 times faster than ISDN connections. Cable modems do > > > > Only problem is you are sharing this with thousand other ppl. > > Which can be partially addressed by subnetting the subscribers. I don't know if you can do that. the network is a bus topology. so what ever subnet you are seeing the same traffic. > > It is hard for me to figure out where all these approaches wind up - > as you identify bottlenecks you can also identify work arounds. This is an Engineering problem. If anybody can solve it there are lot of company will pay you tons of money for it :) > > I saw that Motorola and Sun announced an initiative in this. I think > the plan is centralized big Sun servers, essentially giving you web > terminals at the other end of the cable modem. This will work pretty > well even with unbalanced (high speed out low speed in) lines. Techincal, it is a very good idea. mine is made by Zenith but more or less the same for what you describe. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "we come with nothing, and we leave with nothing" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 04:56:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA26452 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA26446 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA08040 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:55:33 +0100 Message-Id: <199603191255.NAA08040@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 13:52:53 MET From: Greg Lehey X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I've been away from the list for a few days, and so much has come in that I don't think it would make sense to respond to each message individually, so here's a summary: 1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B channel, so you can use async instead". Well, yes, assuming your machine isn't doing anything else. To run 2 B channels flat out, you need a 230 kb/s line, which with standard el cheapo 16550As will give you 23000 interrupts per second. This is enough to max out a slow 386. In my experience, it's also enough to cause overruns even on fast machines. By contrast, I run my current ISDN card on an 8 MHz 286, and if it drops anything, it doesn't notice :-) In any case, I get full B channel throughput. 2. Setup time. Could be that I've bitten off more than I can chew here. Of course, the setup time is dependent on the switch you connect to, but it also depends on the way you talk to it. On an ISDN board, the software talks directly to the D channel. On an ISDN "modem", you need first to establish (serial) connection with the "modem", it then needs to interpret your commands and talk to the D channel. This is bound to take longer, but the question remains whether the difference is noticable. If it is, then I consider it also objectionable: I think the 2 second setup time I have to be too long. 3. Somebody said that it's nice to be able to leverage off existing technology. That's a nice way of saying nothing: after all, the ISDN boards are existing technology too (ISA bus interface--not fast, but a whole lot faster than a serial interface). Conceptually, think of them as slow Ethernet boards. 4. Price. I think some people have not read the messages carefully. I just ordered another batch of boards for DM 133 each, about $90. What combination of ISDN "modem" and serial board can you get for that? Other points: Darryl says that an Ascend P50 can peak 42 kB/s. That seems reasonable with builtin compression. How many B channels? Is this rate sustainable? Hellmuth mentions a number of points: - you can do other things than IP over a board. - 99% of ISDN IP traffic over here is raw IP over HDLC. I disagree. I know a number of ISPs who use PPP, probably because they don't know any better. The difference is important, because currently the FreeBSD implementation can't handle PPP (probably a bug somewhere). - He mentions CAPI. For those of you who didn't want to ask, CAPI is a German API for ISDN boards. To the best of my knowledge, the only implementations run on DOS. Since the CAPI is supplied with the board, this is a serious limitation. dennis says "the \"future\" is in high-speed async". It's difficult to form an opinion about that from my perspective here. Certainly there's not much activity in high-speed async over here. But I suppose it's a case of absolute crud driving out the crud. I think that's covered most of the topics. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 04:58:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA26477 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA26472 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:57:59 -0800 (PST) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA30199; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:52:11 -0800 Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA27766; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:51:57 +0100 Message-Id: <9603191251.AA27766@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com In-Reply-To: Message from Greg Lehey of Tue, 19 Mar 96 12:27:29 +0700. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #986 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 13:51:56 +0100 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk lehey.pad@sni.de writes: > What is ADSL? This is the first time I've heard of it. Are the > speeds you mention without compression? > there's a pointer to ADSL on Dan Kegel's excellent ISDN page: http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~dank/isdn/adsl.html --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 05:36:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA28054 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 05:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA27915 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 05:35:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from neon.Glock.COM (root@neon.glock.com [198.82.228.159]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id FAA26774 ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 05:35:47 -0800 Received: (from mmead@localhost) by neon.Glock.COM (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA04177; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:34:18 -0500 (EST) From: "matthew c. mead" Message-Id: <199603191334.IAA04177@neon.Glock.COM> Subject: Re: new sup server To: dima@freebsd.org (Dima Ruban) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:34:18 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603191022.CAA19365@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Dima Ruban" at Mar 19, 96 02:22:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dima Ruban writes: > Hi there! > > New sup server for current/stable/cvs is operational and ready. > Please use it. (This server is on T3, so it should work > pretty fast). Questions and/or comments to dima@best.net. > Oops, almost forgot. This is sup5.freebsd.org > > Enjoy. How much lag behind freefall is it? -matt -- Matthew C. Mead mmead@Glock.COM http://www.Glock.COM/~mmead/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:01:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA01348 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA01338 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id HAA27150; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:58:50 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603191358.HAA27150@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Max User Proc killing httpd? To: david@polaris.canweb.ca (David Grant) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:58:49 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "David Grant" at Mar 18, 96 05:17:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm getting the dreaded: > Error: HTTPd/CGI: could not fork new process, errno is 35 > > from my web server (NCSA, on FreeBSD-current from about a month ago). > I've increased the maxusers and rebuilt the kernal, but am still > getting this. Is this a maximum _per_User_ process limit I'm > hitting? I think I remeber a thread about this somewhere in the > past but I can't find anything about it in the current docs. > > Anyone know how to up this limit? use "limit" or "unlimit" from the shell? :-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:09:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA02178 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02173 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:09:28 -0800 (PST) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA13982; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 05:55:48 -0800 Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA26852; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:55:30 +0100 Message-Id: <9603191355.AA26852@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com Cc: isdn%muc.ditec.de@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com In-Reply-To: Message from Greg Lehey of Tue, 19 Mar 96 13:52:53 +0700. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 14:55:30 +0100 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk lehey.pad@sni.de writes: [stuff deleted] > Hellmuth mentions a number of points: > [more stuff deleted] > - 99% of ISDN IP traffic over here is raw IP over HDLC. I disagree. > I know a number of ISPs who use PPP, probably because they don't > know any better. The difference is important, because currently the > FreeBSD implementation can't handle PPP (probably a bug somewhere). > [yet more stuff deleted] my ISP only offers ISDN over PPP. He says, if you use HDLC, then we have to assign you a permanent IP address. We can't do that. That's one reason why I still only have an analog connection to him. I want to use HDLC. The second reason is that I didn't think it would work. In regards to PPP with the current FBSD stuff: did you try this using pppd ? What were the symptoms of the failure ? I've never tried using PPP since I don't have a partner who speaks PPP. Hellmuth Michaelis tells me that the latest isdn4linux supports PPP with channel bundling. I'm planning to take a look at it and maybe use it as a basis for (at least) implementing channel bundling. I still have the problem of no partner :( --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:13:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA02390 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:13:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA02381 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA01436; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:10:18 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:52:53 +0700." <199603191255.NAA08040@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:10:18 -0800 Message-ID: <1434.827244618@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B > channel, so you can use async instead". Well, yes, assuming your > machine isn't doing anything else. To run 2 B channels flat out, > you need a 230 kb/s line, which with standard el cheapo 16550As You, uh, would? 64+64 = 128Kb/s using my own calculator! :-) > ISDN board, the software talks directly to the D channel. On an > ISDN "modem", you need first to establish (serial) connection with > the "modem", it then needs to interpret your commands and talk to > the D channel. This is bound to take longer, but the question The difference is not noticable at all with my own pair of TAs - from connection to the serial port to a login prompt on freefall takes all of 1-2 seconds. The lengthy bit is the chat script login and SLIP negotiation phase - something I couldn't avoid with a card, I think. > 4. Price. I think some people have not read the messages carefully. > I just ordered another batch of boards for DM 133 each, about $90. Lucky you - you can even get them! :-( I've had mine on order from Teles for 5 months now. Still no availability in the U.S. I looked around avidly for a pair of boards when I first got my ISDN line and finally punted in favor of the two $349 ADTRAN TAs that were available Right Now. The ADTRAN TAs are also nice in that they do channel bonding transparently. You just configure the modem for bonding mode 1 and it automagically makes two outgoing calls and bonds the B channels together for a single "fat pipe". I've talked with Helmuth a little about this and it doesn't look like it's anywhere near as easy to do with the TELES cards, though I may have misunderstood him. > - He mentions CAPI. For those of you who didn't want to ask, CAPI is > a German API for ISDN boards. To the best of my knowledge, the only Oh yeah, the TAs also support standard Hayes dialing. I'm not looking forward to figuring out how to use the dialer interface for the boards. Don't get me wrong - I STILL want a pair of boards because I want to have a full 128K/sync connection and get that last 25% of performance out of the line, but I think that for some people a pair of TAs is the most no-brainer, plug-it-in-and-go-today solution you can buy. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:18:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA02554 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from border.com (janus.border.com [199.71.190.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA02549 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by janus.border.com id <18434-2>; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:18:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:18:01 -0500 From: Jerry Kendall To: Wong Cc: Terry Lambert , "Amancio Hasty Jr." , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <96Mar19.091825est.18434-2@janus.border.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Wong wrote: > > > > I am using it right now. it is $39 Cdn/month. got alot of problem > > > > but this could be the ISP is too green I am sorry, but, I was not following this until now, where is this ISP ??? Web info, name etc.... would be good... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any comments or opinions in this message are my own and may or may not reflect the comments or opinions of my present or previous employers. Jerry Kendall Border Network Technologies Inc. System Software Engineer Tel +1-416-368-7157 ext 303 jerry@border.com Fax +1-416-368-7178 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:19:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA02578 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02542 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from border.com (janus.border.com [199.71.190.98]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id GAA27389 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:18:03 -0800 Received: by janus.border.com id <18435-1>; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:16:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:16:18 -0500 From: Jerry Kendall To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD hackers , isdn@muc.ditec.de Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-Reply-To: <199603191255.NAA08040@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-Id: <96Mar19.091650est.18435-1@janus.border.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > 4. Price. I think some people have not read the messages carefully. > I just ordered another batch of boards for DM 133 each, about $90. > What combination of ISDN "modem" and serial board can you get for > that? What brand, and where did you get it from ??? What features does it have ?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any comments or opinions in this message are my own and may or may not reflect the comments or opinions of my present or previous employers. Jerry Kendall Border Network Technologies Inc. System Software Engineer Tel +1-416-368-7157 ext 303 jerry@border.com Fax +1-416-368-7178 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:22:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA02828 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02822 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cwbone.bsi.com.br ([200.250.250.14]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id GAA27485 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:22:23 -0800 Received: from lenzi (ra12.dial.ufsc.br [150.162.246.12]) by cwbone.bsi.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10358 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:21:16 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:26:51 -0300 (EST) From: "Lenzi, Sergio" X-Sender: lenzi@lenzi To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Quality of BSD software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello all. In an answer from a request for information about Win/U here is what they sad: > > Thank you for your interest in Wind/U, which enables you to take > your Windows applications to multiple Unix and VMS platforms > with only a single source required. > > We do not support Linux or FreeBSD, primarily due to the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > quality of the compilers that work with these operating systems. I am very satisfyed with the quality of the BSD compilers and operating system. In fact I think it is better than SCO or UNIXWARE compilers that has bugs in the libc. Can someone please evaluate this and perhaps convince the Win/U that BSD has "quality" compilers??? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:23:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA02863 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA02849 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14455 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:22:28 +0100 Message-Id: <199603191422.PAA14455@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 15:19:49 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) In-Reply-To: <1434.827244618@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 19, 96 6:10 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> 1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B >> channel, so you can use async instead". Well, yes, assuming your >> machine isn't doing anything else. To run 2 B channels flat out, >> you need a 230 kb/s line, which with standard el cheapo 16550As > > You, uh, would? 64+64 = 128Kb/s using my own calculator! :-) No, that's abusing your calculator. Async bytes are 10 bits (8 bits, start and stop), whereas sync bytes are 8 bits. So you'd need at least 160 kb/s async. But where can you get that speed? >> ISDN board, the software talks directly to the D channel. On an >> ISDN "modem", you need first to establish (serial) connection with >> the "modem", it then needs to interpret your commands and talk to >> the D channel. This is bound to take longer, but the question > > The difference is not noticable at all with my own pair of TAs - from > connection to the serial port to a login prompt on freefall takes all > of 1-2 seconds. The lengthy bit is the chat script login and SLIP > negotiation phase - something I couldn't avoid with a card, I think. Aha. Yes, you can. With a card, there is no chat script or login, no more than there is if you connect to a different system via Ethernet. >> 4. Price. I think some people have not read the messages carefully. >> I just ordered another batch of boards for DM 133 each, about $90. > > Lucky you - you can even get them! :-( > > I've had mine on order from Teles for 5 months now. Still no > availability in the U.S. I looked around avidly for a pair of boards > when I first got my ISDN line and finally punted in favor of the two > $349 ADTRAN TAs that were available Right Now. > > The ADTRAN TAs are also nice in that they do channel bonding > transparently. Yes, this is something we still need to investigate. ISPA, the DOS program I'm using on my 286 at the moment, also does this (with configurable thresholds per address). > You just configure the modem for bonding mode 1 and it > automagically makes two outgoing calls and bonds the B channels > together for a single "fat pipe". If it does it automatically, you end up paying twice as much for your connection, even if you don't need the bandwidth. You need some form of load detection to make it economically viable. > I've talked with Helmuth a little > about this and it doesn't look like it's anywhere near as easy to do > with the TELES cards, though I may have misunderstood him. You could be right. I don't think anybody over here has really investigated the requirements. Maybe Dietmar knows. > Oh yeah, the TAs also support standard Hayes dialing. I'm not looking > forward to figuring out how to use the dialer interface for the boards. It's much simpler than standard Hayes. With ISPA, you just have a list of IP addresses and phone numbers. I know how to set up SLIP and PPP on analogue modems--that's one of the reasons I prefer ISDN boards. I still haven't investigated the exact formats for the FreeBSD solution--I suppose I should spend some time getting the doc up to scratch. > Don't get me wrong - I STILL want a pair of boards because I want to > have a full 128K/sync connection and get that last 25% of performance > out of the line, but I think that for some people a pair of TAs is the > most no-brainer, plug-it-in-and-go-today solution you can buy. You want me to order a couple for you? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:26:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA03062 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA03048 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14518 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:25:07 +0100 Message-Id: <199603191425.PAA14518@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: jerry@border.com (Jerry Kendall) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 15:22:27 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) In-Reply-To: <96Mar19.091650est.18435-1@janus.border.com>; from "Jerry Kendall" at Mar 19, 96 9:16 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> 4. Price. I think some people have not read the messages carefully. >> I just ordered another batch of boards for DM 133 each, about $90. >> What combination of ISDN "modem" and serial board can you get for >> that? > > > What brand, and where did you get it from ??? Creatix or Teles. They're available just about anywhere here. > What features does it have ?? It's a BRI ISDN board with an ISA bus interface and no local CPU. Think of it as a slow Ethernet board and you'll understand it better--the term "features" doesn't really apply. The software supplies the features. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:33:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA03690 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil (root@ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil [134.207.10.161]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA03685 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmsun.cmf.nrl.navy.mil (kenh@cmsun.cmf.nrl.navy.mil [134.207.10.4]) by ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id JAA03482; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:32:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199603191432.JAA03482@ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil> To: Michael Smith cc: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball), hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: IDE In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:32:32 +1030." <199603190202.MAA27505@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Face: "Evs"_GpJ]],xS)b$T2#V&{KfP_i2`TlPrY$Iv9+TQ!6+`~+l)#7I)0xr1>4hfd{#0B4 WIn3jU;bql;{2Uq%zw5bF4?%F&&j8@KaT?#vBGk}u07<+6/`.F-3_GA@6Bq5gN9\+s;_d gD\SW #]iN_U0 KUmOR.P<|um5yPkEpSD@*e` Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:32:58 -0500 From: Ken Hornstein Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Xf users: How does xf compare, as a resource editor? > >Xf is wonderful, but tied to outdated versions of Tcl/Tk. If someone were >to bring it up to date, the Tk community would be extatic. Unfortunately, >Sven appears to have better things to do with his time 8( Actually, I disagree. I think xf is kinda yukky. The big problem with xf is that it's kinda a pain to use. And if you don't know Tcl/Tk, it's impossible to use (try figuring out the difference between fill and expand by just using xf. Blah!). I tried it at first before I knew Tcl/Tk, and I just gave up and learned Tcl/Tk. Once I learned Tcl/Tk, I discovered that it was just easier to write my programs in Tcl/Tk directly than to use Xf. There was an interesting discussion about Xf on comp.lang.tcl a while ago. When I posted my experiences with Xf, about 10 people followed up my article and said, "Hey, I had the exact same thing happen to me!". Go figure :-) --Ken From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 06:51:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA05206 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:51:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from bacall.lodgenet.com ([205.138.147.242]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA05193 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by bacall.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA22620 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:46:17 -0600 Received: from tserv.lodgenet.com(204.124.120.10) by bacall via smap (V1.3) id sma022618; Tue Mar 19 08:46:03 1996 Received: from jake.lodgenet.com (jake.lodgenet.com [204.124.120.30]) by tserv.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA04782; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:13:04 -0600 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jake.lodgenet.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA06639; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:25:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603191425.IAA06639@jake.lodgenet.com> X-Authentication-Warning: jake.lodgenet.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:20:08 +0100." <199603182320.AAA29294@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:25:20 -0600 From: "Eric L. Hernes" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > >Trash written all over an i-node block. > >Is this with an `ahc' driver (it's the only one where i've ever seen >this, too)? If so, is this plain 2.1R, or a newer one? Justin was >sure that he's been fixing these kind of problems meanwhile. > I've seen 'em with a bt946 running -current since I don't know when. They show up periodically, sometimes I rm them, sometimes I leave them for a while. Now that I'm thinking about it, I remember they showed up after a fairly serious disk crash a while back. I think that the first *two* super block backups were toasted, yikes. I recovered without newfs'ing, but then those mystery files showed up. I had to go through some contortions with `ls -o', chflags, and rm before they were gone completely. >-- >cheers, J"org > >joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE >Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > eric. -- erich@lodgenet.com erich@rrnet.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 07:00:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA05992 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA05953 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 06:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Tue, 19 Mar 96 09:58:44 -0500 Received: from compound (fergus-29.dialup.cfa.org) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Tue, 19 Mar 96 09:58:41 EST Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound (8.6.12/8.6.112) id IAA10104; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:58:51 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:58:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199603191458.IAA10104@compound> From: Tony Kimball To: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603190344.TAA29734@freefall.freebsd.org> (owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org) Subject: GUI fever Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As far as I can see... Unix commands have proven to be between the most useful programs written... I still find many uses for them for which no other program suits. Take the example I have mentioned. Borja. borjam@we.lc.ehu.es I bet you did it in an xterm. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 07:03:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA06402 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:03:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA06368 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tz2vC-000I8qC; Tue, 19 Mar 96 16:02 MET Received: by ernie.altona.hamburg.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0tz2Nh-00001hC; Tue, 19 Mar 96 15:27 MET Message-Id: From: hm@altona.hamburg.com (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: Aust. ISDN, was Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: lehey.pad@sni.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:27:25 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603190946.KAA25206@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 19, 96 10:43:55 am Reply-To: hm@altona.hamburg.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From the keyboard of Greg Lehey: > Interesting. In Germany, the Telco supplies the NT1 as well, but they > allow you to connect anything to it (as far as I can tell; other > German subscribers please correct me). AFAIK the soft/hardware combination you plug into the S0 must be certified. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@altona.hamburg.com Hamburg, Europe (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 07:10:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA06966 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA06952 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA01647; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:09:20 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:19:49 +0700." <199603191422.PAA14451@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:09:20 -0800 Message-ID: <1645.827248160@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > You, uh, would? 64+64 = 128Kb/s using my own calculator! :-) > > No, that's abusing your calculator. Async bytes are 10 bits (8 bits, > start and stop), whereas sync bytes are 8 bits. So you'd need at I know, and with async I get 115.2Kbps not 128K. I believe that that B channels do 64Kbps assuming 8 bits per byte, not 10, so my calculator remains unabused. > Aha. Yes, you can. With a card, there is no chat script or login, no > more than there is if you connect to a different system via Ethernet. Well, I still need to dial but I guess I can see where I would not have to stick a getty on the board. > If it does it automatically, you end up paying twice as much for your > connection, even if you don't need the bandwidth. You need some form Not at all. Centrex ISDN is what folks like Amancio and I use. > You want me to order a couple for you? I'm not sure it would work here - that's what Teles in the US told me when I suggested buying a couple of the German ones, anyway. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 07:13:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA07315 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sol.we.lc.ehu.es (sol.we.lc.ehu.es [158.227.6.42]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA07309 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sirius.we.lc.ehu.es by sol.we.lc.ehu.es (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA09890; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:10:42 +0100 From: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es (Borja Marcos) Message-Id: <9603191510.AA09890@sol.we.lc.ehu.es> Subject: Re: GUI fever To: alk@think.com, hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:24:44 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <199603191458.IAA10104@compound> from "Tony Kimball" at Mar 19, 96 08:58:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > As far as I can see... Unix commands have proven to be between the > most useful programs written... I still find many uses for them for which no > other program suits. Take the example I have mentioned. > > Borja. > borjam@we.lc.ehu.es > > I bet you did it in an xterm. Not this time :-) In a MDA card (no graphics) with a green phosphor monitor. I'm not against window systems (I use X at home, of course) but only use it for xterm's and the only graphic application I use is Netscape. For me, the window system is a good mechanism to have more than one xterm in the screen, but some graphical applications (I mean those applications that force you to move the mouse and don't allow you to automate a task or use some applications cooperating together) really make me work slower. You can use ImageMagick to process some images while you go for a walk, or you can be a whole afternoon moving and clicking. the mouse :-) Borja. > -- ******************************************************************* Borja Marcos | Preferred: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es Alangoeta, 11, 1. izq. | Others: borjamar@mx.sarenet.es 48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya) | 100015.3502@compuserve.com SPAIN | CIS: 100015,3502 ****************************************************************** (c)1995 by the author. This message cannot be transferred to the Microsoft(tm) Network. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 07:19:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA07783 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA07775 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA01721; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:18:35 -0800 (PST) To: "Lenzi, Sergio" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Quality of BSD software In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:26:51 -0300." Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:18:35 -0800 Message-ID: <1719.827248715@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've talked with them quite a few times (about twice a year) since I have friends who do or used to work for them. It's more a question of market share for them, and I think the compiler quality issue is just a red herring. The last discussion I had with them indicated that they thought it a nice idea but not really compatible with their markets. Jordan > Hello all. > > In an answer from a request for information about Win/U here is what > they sad: > > > > > Thank you for your interest in Wind/U, which enables you to take > > your Windows applications to multiple Unix and VMS platforms > > with only a single source required. > > > > We do not support Linux or FreeBSD, primarily due to the > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > quality of the compilers that work with these operating systems. > > I am very satisfyed with the quality of the BSD compilers and operating > system. In fact I think it is better than SCO or UNIXWARE compilers that > has bugs in the libc. > > Can someone please evaluate this and perhaps convince the Win/U that > BSD has "quality" compilers??? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 07:26:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA08309 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA08287 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA18365 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:24:53 +0100 Message-Id: <199603191524.QAA18365@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 16:22:14 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) In-Reply-To: <1645.827248160@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 19, 96 7:09 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > You, uh, would? 64+64 = 128Kb/s using my own calculator! :-) >> >> No, that's abusing your calculator. Async bytes are 10 bits (8 bits, >> start and stop), whereas sync bytes are 8 bits. So you'd need at > > I know, and with async I get 115.2Kbps not 128K. I believe that that > B channels do 64Kbps assuming 8 bits per byte, not 10, so my > calculator remains unabused. Watch my lips. A B channel gives you 64,000 bits per second. When you add one start bit and one stop bit for every 8 bits, you end up with 80,000 bits. Bind two such channels together and you have 160,000 bits every second. Stuff them down a hose which can only take 115,200, and you have 44,800 bits that get lost. Of course, if you have a 115,200 connection at the other end, too, you can run it, but you lose 28% of the bandwidth. >> Aha. Yes, you can. With a card, there is no chat script or login, no >> more than there is if you connect to a different system via Ethernet. > > Well, I still need to dial but I guess I can see where I would not have > to stick a getty on the board. Sure. All you need is the correct entries in inetd.conf. >> If it does it automatically, you end up paying twice as much for your >> connection, even if you don't need the bandwidth. You need some form > > Not at all. Centrex ISDN is what folks like Amancio and I use. Then it's a question of tarifs. You mean that you can call from Milpitas or wherever you are to Concord, and you don't pay any more for two B channels than for one? >> You want me to order a couple for you? > > I'm not sure it would work here - that's what Teles in the US told > me when I suggested buying a couple of the German ones, anyway. They could well be right. That's one of the reasons why we're waiting for you to install the stuff :-) I don't think it would be the boards, though: they're so primitive that I don't think there would be anything to change. My bet is that the CAPI would be different. That could pose severe problems for the FreeBSD implementation, at least until we find out what the differences are. OBTW, the Teles CAPI is user-friendly: it installs under Windoze, whatever that might be. It doesn't use Windoze, it just needs it to install. When I told the support line that I thought it an imposition to have to buy Windoze to install the CAPI, they didn't understand my problem. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 07:42:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA09594 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09572 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA03223; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:43:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:43:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199603191543.KAA03223@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Brian Litzinger From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: sync Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >dennis wrote: >> >> > I still find it terribly interesting that people will spend a fortune >> >> > on horsepower of questionable necessity (like P6s and 166Mhz cpus to >> >> > run a terminal server) but want to use $30. async cards for the most >> >> > important bottleneck in their network. >> >> If I thought that people would use them I think a $195. sync solution >> (paired with a >> $265. bitsurfer would be a very efficient full 128kbs solution). But I don't >> think enough >> Dennis > >I do. Used to program Z8530's in my sleep for DUAL DMA operation to run >video teleconferencing at 3MBits/sec via satelite. was real cool. > >I was thinking of the doing a driver for the Z8530, there is support >for it in Linux. On the other hand, how much trouble would it be >to hook a BSPro to one of your cards? I was going to try, but now >I can just ask you. How hard is it to plug a cable into a socket? V.25 dialing would be nice, as well as PAP or something. But neither is very difficult. dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 07:45:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA09925 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09916 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Tue, 19 Mar 96 10:45:19 -0500 Received: from compound (fergus-29.dialup.cfa.org) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Tue, 19 Mar 96 10:45:13 EST Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound (8.6.12/8.6.112) id JAA10395; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:42:32 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:42:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199603191542.JAA10395@compound> From: Tony Kimball To: lehey.pad@sni.de Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603191130.MAA03478@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> (message from Greg Lehey on Tue, 19 Mar 96 12:27:29 MET) Subject: ADSL Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 12:27:29 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) What is ADSL? This is the first time I've heard of it. Are the speeds you mention without compression? Asymmetric Digital Subscriber Line. See Dan Kegel's page at http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~dank/isdn/adsl.html > ISDN is obsolete. Is ADSL available everywhere? Does every ISP who supports ISDN also support ADSL? Can you use it for telephones and faxes? If not, you can't make that claim. ADSL is available everywhere, because all it takes is a pair of wires. If your ISP won't support ADSL, you will be needing a new ISP. Yes, you can use the same line for POTS and Fax. There is not a great deal of correlation between technical obsolescence and market share, and I can say what I like because words mean what I tell them to mean:) ISDN was obsolete before it ever got started. How long will people be willing to pay for a 115kb link once commodity 2nd-gen ADSL modems give them a link at 1-8Mb for the same price? No, a factor of 10-80 in performance, the opportunity for real videoconferencing and VOD is just too much weight for ISDN to bear. PairGain modems come out in June, and the Willtel CAP offering comes out in October. You may argue about the relative obsolescence of ISDN today, but come Christmas time, any further arguments will be silly. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 07:54:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA10554 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA10437 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA19984 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:52:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199603191552.QAA19984@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 16:49:25 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > lehey.pad@sni.de writes: > [stuff deleted] >> Hellmuth mentions a number of points: >> > [more stuff deleted] >> - 99% of ISDN IP traffic over here is raw IP over HDLC. I disagree. >> I know a number of ISPs who use PPP, probably because they don't >> know any better. The difference is important, because currently the >> FreeBSD implementation can't handle PPP (probably a bug somewhere). >> > [yet more stuff deleted] > > my ISP only offers ISDN over PPP. He says, if you use HDLC, then we have > to assign you a permanent IP address. We can't do that. That's one > reason why I still only have an analog connection to him. I want to use > HDLC. The second reason is that I didn't think it would work. Yes, this is pretty much the same picture that Juergen gives me. He finally gave in and is currently connecting to the net using the same non-FreeBSD setup that I have (PC-ROUTE and ISPA). > In regards to PPP with the current FBSD stuff: did you try this using > pppd ? What were the symptoms of the failure ? I've never tried using > PPP since I don't have a partner who speaks PPP. Juergen did the test. He tells me that he had some kind of panic, and that he hadn't followed up. It was a while ago, and things might have changed since. I don't think you should pay more attention to the report than to know that it might not all be smooth sailing. > Hellmuth Michaelis tells me that the latest isdn4linux supports PPP > with channel bundling. I'm planning to take a look at it and maybe > use it as a basis for (at least) implementing channel bundling. Good news. I have a feeling it's not too difficult. > I still have the problem of no partner :( I can do PPP (over ISPA :-(). If I hadn't turned off my router this morning, you could try straight away. Now you'll have to wait until I get home on Friday. I'll send you separate mail. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 08:12:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA11741 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA11733 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:12:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603191612.IAA11733@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: Host localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:33:15 EST." Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:12:46 -0800 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The filesystem holds our entire Apache document tree. The first >two regular files are log files for one of our virtual domains, and I >don't know what the third is. But what could have created the two >block special files? A pipe? Fsck will occasionally do this just for kicks when it incounters corrupt inode information. What disk controller are you using? >-- >Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) >Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" > -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 08:12:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA11758 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA11565 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA20723 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:09:59 +0100 Message-Id: <199603191609.RAA20723@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ADSL To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 17:07:17 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) In-Reply-To: <199603191542.JAA10395@compound>; from "Tony Kimball" at Mar 19, 96 9:42 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Humpty Dumpty writes: > > From: Greg Lehey > > What is ADSL? This is the first time I've heard of it. Are the > speeds you mention without compression? > > Asymmetric Digital Subscriber Line. See Dan Kegel's page at > http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~dank/isdn/adsl.html Thanks. Interesting stuff. I had heard of this, but I didn't know the name. >> ISDN is obsolete. > > Is ADSL available everywhere? Does every ISP who supports ISDN also > support ADSL? Can you use it for telephones and faxes? If not, you > can't make that claim. > > ADSL is available everywhere, because all it takes is a pair of wires. > If your ISP won't support ADSL, you will be needing a new ISP. > Yes, you can use the same line for POTS and Fax. This is a rather naive approach. Your pair of wires need to be connected to something. Over here, the only copper wire pair you're likely to see coming in to your house belongs to the phone company. What you connect to it depends on what they have connected at the other end. Over here, it's ISDN (128 kb/s or 2.048 MB/s). Are you saying you can use the same line at the same time for POTS and Fax? How does that work? > There is not a great deal of correlation between technical obsolescence > and market share, and I can say what I like because words mean what > I tell them to mean:) Agreed on both points (see above). DOS is an excellent proof of the first claim. > ISDN was obsolete before it ever got started. How long will people be > willing to pay for a 115kb link once commodity 2nd-gen ADSL modems > give them a link at 1-8Mb for the same price? First, ISDN BRI is 128 kb/s, not 115. Second, it's obvious that, under those circumstances, the prices will change. > No, a factor of 10-80 in performance, the opportunity for real > videoconferencing and VOD is just too much weight for ISDN to bear. I don't see that factor out there. The Web page you point me to talks about downlink speeds between 384 kb/s and 4 Mb/s, and uplink speeds between 64 kb/s and "10 times that much". That's hardly any faster than regular ISDN. On top of that, there are a lot of disadvantages that I can see: from the Web page, it would seem as if every "modem" manufacturer is doing his own thing. This means that I might be able to set up a point to point link with one ISP, but doesn's seem to be a way to connect to multiple, unrelated sites. ISDN *does* give you that advantage, even today. > PairGain modems come out in June, and the Willtel CAP offering comes > out in October. You may argue about the relative obsolescence of > ISDN today, but come Christmas time, any further arguments will be > silly. OK, let's have a bet about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a rabid ISDN fanatic, even if you might get that impression from my postings. Show me something viable, and I'll go for it. But from what I've seen so far, I don't think that ADSL will go very far. I don't really see a big technical difference from ISDN PRI: I'd guess that this is a marketing ploy designed to fit specific data transmission needs only, while making it unsuitable for phone calls (which require symmetric data rates). It's more likely to lead to something else, maybe ATM. I consider it extremely unlikely that it will find much following in mainland Europe. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 08:31:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA12999 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA12991 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:31:32 -0800 (PST) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA15153; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:15:30 -0800 Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA19570; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:15:17 +0100 Message-Id: <9603191615.AA19570@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com Cc: isdn%muc.ditec.de@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com In-Reply-To: Message from Greg Lehey of Tue, 19 Mar 96 16:22:14 +0700. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 17:15:17 +0100 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk lehey.pad@sni.de writes: > They could well be right. That's one of the reasons why we're waiting > for you to install the stuff :-) I don't think it would be the > boards, though: they're so primitive that I don't think there would be > anything to change. this is probably correct, since we don't use the Teles board in auto mode and do all the LAPD in software. The question is, do the TelCos use Q.931 ? That's what our lap driver uses. Or is it Q.921 ? > My bet is that the CAPI would be different. That > could pose severe problems for the FreeBSD implementation, at least > until we find out what the differences are. > CAPI ? FBSD don't use no steenkin' CAPI ! (the bandits in "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" never said "steenkin'", BTW) :-) We program the boards ourselves and provide a simple tty interface for AT type commands. --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 08:34:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA13409 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA13380 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id LAA03805; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:32:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:32:57 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? In-Reply-To: <199603191612.IAA11733@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > > Fsck will occasionally do this just for kicks when it incounters > corrupt inode information. What disk controller are you using? NCR53c810. fsck was spewing something nasty about bad/duplicate inodes when it was churning through one that disk. It would be nice if the fsck output was logged somewhere for later perusal. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) System and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 08:35:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA13629 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA13485 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03328; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:37:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:37:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199603191637.LAA03328@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) Cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Well, I've been away from the list for a few days, and so much has >come in that I don't think it would make sense to respond to each >message individually, so here's a summary: > >1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B > channel, so you can use async instead". This is the funniest thing I've ever heard......LOL dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 08:42:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA14121 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA14114 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from maryann.eng.umd.edu (maryann.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.209]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25102; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by maryann.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA32609; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:41:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:41:58 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@maryann.eng.umd.edu To: Tony Kimball cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: IDE In-Reply-To: <199603181805.MAA01533@compound> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Tony Kimball wrote: > > All VC++ really buys you is compile/debug integration (done in emacs > as noted) and visual resource editing. The template code generation > is impressive at first, but amortized over the lifecycle of the code, > it is almost a nil benefit. > > Xf users: How does xf compare, as a resource editor? Did you guys notice that XF was just rereleased by Sven, (I think Delmas, but my memory for names is poor) for tk4.1? I haven't tried it yet, but the original was fairly easy to use. > > //alk > > > ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 08:44:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA14287 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14272 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:44:50 -0800 (PST) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA19180; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:54:07 -0800 Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA07759; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:53:52 +0100 Message-Id: <9603191553.AA07759@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com Cc: isdn%muc.ditec.de@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com In-Reply-To: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of Tue, 19 Mar 96 06:10:18 PST. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 16:53:52 +0100 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk jkh@time.cdrom.com writes: [stuff deleted] > > I've had mine on order from Teles for 5 months now. Still no > availability in the U.S. > boy, this is screwed up. Have you considered getting a pair of Lion DataPumps ? See Julian Stacey's home page on freefall. These look just like internal modems, support PPP on-board and channel bonding too. AFAIK, Barry has an office in the US now. Of course, it would be really nice if you waited Teles out so you could test the ISDN stuff in the US :) > The ADTRAN TAs are also nice in that they do channel bonding > transparently. You just configure the modem for bonding mode 1 and it > automagically makes two outgoing calls and bonds the B channels > together for a single "fat pipe". I've talked with Helmuth a little > about this and it doesn't look like it's anywhere near as easy to do > with the TELES cards, though I may have misunderstood him. > It's not a matter of the Teles cards not supporting it. They can handle 2 B-channels simultaneously w/o any problem. It's hacking it into the kernel. What do we use as the protocol ? MPP ? BACP (unbelievably ugly !) ? Home-made ? > Oh yeah, the TAs also support standard Hayes dialing. I'm not looking > forward to figuring out how to use the dialer interface for the boards. > nothing easier ! Just enter the incoming/outgoing phone numbers into /etc/isdn and say "telnet the-other-guy" and, hey presto !, the connection gets made for you. Well, you need a route and have to configure the ii? interfaces, but it's no more difficult than setting up SL/IP or PPP. This is IP on top of HDLC, totally transparent. Most of the dirty work gets done in /etc/rc.isdn. --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 08:52:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA14651 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14646 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Tue, 19 Mar 96 11:51:49 -0500 Received: from compound (fergus-29.dialup.cfa.org) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Tue, 19 Mar 96 11:51:45 EST Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound (8.6.12/8.6.112) id KAA10764; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:52:02 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:52:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199603191652.KAA10764@compound> From: Tony Kimball To: lehey.pad@sni.de Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603191609.RAA20719@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> (message from Greg Lehey on Tue, 19 Mar 96 17:07:17 MET) Subject: Re: ADSL Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I consider it extremely unlikely that it will find much following in mainland Europe. I'll emit an evil laugh as I watch Europe sink into the stone age:) > No, a factor of 10-80 in performance, the opportunity for real > videoconferencing and VOD is just too much weight for ISDN to bear. I don't see that factor out there. The Web page you point me to talks about downlink speeds between 384 kb/s and 4 Mb/s, and uplink speeds between 64 kb/s and "10 times that much". That's hardly any faster than regular ISDN. Downlink speeds dominate. If you want symmetric, go HDSL not ASDL. That's not mass-market technology, though, so while complimentary development of ADSL components will reduce the cost of HDSL equipment, it will never get to the raw commodity prices that the 100M unit volumes of ADSL modems will achieve. (Alternatively, use an MPPP bridge/router with reverse-oriented ADSL modem pairs.) Therefore, I only care about downlink speeds, in arguing obsolescence. (Although for passable videoconferencing I would require at least 384k uplink -- still, I don't expect much of that until a future generation of products. No, VOD is the killer app here.) 384k downlink speeds are in the far end of the service range. Typical application speeds will vary from 1.5 to 6. In short-haul loops, VDSL will peak out at ~50Mbps, but will be too pricey, again. In those short-haul loops, ADSL can run to 8, using proprietary vendor encodings. It is from the latter (best-case) figure that I derive the upper end of my multiplier. To be fair I should have said "3-80" times instead of "10-80". 90% of the sample will fit in the "10-40" range. It's still far too big a factor. The infrastructure costs are *the*same*as*ISDN*. And *it*runs*faster*. And *it*supports* TV*. Computers are nothing. TVs are everything. On top of that, there are a lot of disadvantages that I can see: from the Web page, it would seem as if every "modem" manufacturer is doing his own thing. There are basically three encodings in production, and each interoperates with other vendor equipment in the same class, in theory. Practice in general is too early to close on, but certainly that CAP modems (Willtel and AT&T) do interoperate is abundantly well demonstrated. As an end-user, I don't really care, though, because all I want is to interoperate with my Central Information Service Provider. This means that I might be able to set up a point to point link with one ISP, but doesn's seem to be a way to connect to multiple, unrelated sites. ISDN *does* give you that advantage, even today. Your ISP will provide the link between ISDN/POTS and the ADSL line. Think like an end-user: You do not care about switching and routing and uch. All you want is a fat pipe. Let the pros take care of switching. ISP==Telco==VideoLibrary==Cable==DSS. One bill to pay each month. > PairGain modems come out in June, and the Willtel CAP offering comes > out in October. You may argue about the relative obsolescence of > ISDN today, but come Christmas time, any further arguments will be > silly. OK, let's have a bet about it. I don't bet. I invest. We'll see who pays the most capital gains tax:) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 09:09:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA15926 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA15917 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:09:54 -0800 (PST) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA24073; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:02:01 -0800 Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA11509; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:01:48 +0100 Message-Id: <9603191701.AA11509@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com Cc: isdn%muc.ditec.de@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com In-Reply-To: Message from Greg Lehey of Tue, 19 Mar 96 17:07:17 +0700. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: ADSL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 18:01:48 +0100 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk lehey.pad@sni.de writes: > > ISDN was obsolete before it ever got started. How long will people be > > willing to pay for a 115kb link once commodity 2nd-gen ADSL modems > > give them a link at 1-8Mb for the same price? > > First, ISDN BRI is 128 kb/s, not 115. Second, it's obvious that, > under those circumstances, the prices will change. > the ADSL modems also seem to be amazingly expensive ! $ 2500 ! Gimme a break. > > PairGain modems come out in June, and the Willtel CAP offering comes > > out in October. You may argue about the relative obsolescence of > > ISDN today, but come Christmas time, any further arguments will be > > silly. > > OK, let's have a bet about it. [deletia] > I consider it extremely unlikely that it will find much following in > mainland Europe. > there was a short blurb in one of the European rags recently (c't, Spiegel ?) regarding cable modems. The Telekom (in Germany) claimed that they could see no market for such a thing and had no plans to introduce it. You have to know that the Telekom owns just about 100 % of the cable TV connections in Germany. This "it's available everywhere" and "ISDN is obsolete" and "by Christmas ADSL will have won the battle" (to paraphrase a little) stuff is very US centric. Wake up ! America is not and never was and never will be the world. For most of the rest of us ISDN is the only viable alternative to POTS. --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 09:34:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA17280 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA17261 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:34:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603191734.JAA17261@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: Host localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: questions, hackers Subject: I'm off these lists Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:34:54 -0800 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've decided to leave these two lists in the hope of cutting down my email to some reasonable size and redirecting the saved time into coding for the project. If you have any problems with the aic7xxx driver, please direct them to freebsd-scsi. If you have some other issue that I should now about, cc: me directly at gibbs@FreeBSD.org Thanks, -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 10:02:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA19062 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA19055 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:02:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tz5jP-000I8lC; Tue, 19 Mar 96 19:02 MET Received: by ernie.altona.hamburg.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0tz5Qo-00000iC; Tue, 19 Mar 96 18:42 MET Message-Id: From: hm@altona.hamburg.com (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: lehey.pad@sni.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:42:50 +0100 (MET) Cc: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com, hackers@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de In-Reply-To: <199603191552.QAA19988@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 19, 96 04:49:25 pm Reply-To: hm@altona.hamburg.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From the keyboard of Greg Lehey: > > my ISP only offers ISDN over PPP. He says, if you use HDLC, then we have > > to assign you a permanent IP address. I wanted a class-C network and my ISP is happy that i use HDLC because it is the fastest way and is setup and operated without _any_ problems (in contrast to the Windows weenies using the most hip PPP implementation of the day). Anyway - PPP seems to become the standard in this field, and it would be nice to have a stable and fast implementation. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@altona.hamburg.com Hamburg, Europe (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 10:35:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA21184 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21177 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:35:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA03512 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:37:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:37:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199603191837.NAA03512@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> 4. Price. I think some people have not read the messages carefully. >> I just ordered another batch of boards for DM 133 each, about $90. >> What combination of ISDN "modem" and serial board can you get for >> that? You can get an old Pinto for $100., but I ain't buyin' one. db From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 10:47:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA21692 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from elmo.uu.net (elmo.UU.NET [153.39.245.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21675 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mo@localhost) by elmo.uu.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA00208 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:46:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:46:04 -0500 From: "Mike O'Dell" Message-Id: <199603191846.NAA00208@elmo.uu.net> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: install to sd1 from CDROM???? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk i see no obvious way to do an install to a second scsi disk from the CDROM install thing..... what am I missing??? -mo mo@uu.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 10:53:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA21979 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21972 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA08413; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:54:50 +0200 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:54:49 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: System probing? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It doesn't most probably belong here, but that's what I found out looking at the output of last: ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:21 - 16:21 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:21 - 16:21 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:21 - 16:21 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:21 - 16:21 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:20 - 16:20 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:20 - 16:20 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:20 - 16:20 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:20 - 16:20 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:19 - 16:19 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:19 - 16:19 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:19 - 16:19 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:19 - 16:19 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:19 - 16:19 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:19 - 16:19 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:19 - 16:19 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:19 - 16:19 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:18 - 16:18 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:18 - 16:18 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:18 - 16:18 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:18 - 16:18 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:18 - 16:18 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:18 - 16:18 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:17 - 16:17 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:17 - 16:17 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:16 - 16:16 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:15 - 16:15 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:15 - 16:15 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:15 - 16:15 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:14 - 16:14 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:14 - 16:14 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:14 - 16:14 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:13 - 16:13 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:13 - 16:13 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:13 - 16:13 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Mon Mar 18 16:13 - 16:13 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Tue Mar 5 17:49 - 17:49 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Tue Mar 5 17:48 - 17:48 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Tue Mar 5 17:48 - 17:48 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Tue Mar 5 17:47 - 17:47 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Tue Mar 5 17:47 - 17:47 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Tue Mar 5 17:47 - 17:47 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Tue Mar 5 17:47 - 17:47 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Tue Mar 5 17:47 - 17:47 (00:00) ftp ftp jupiter.zzz.ee Tue Mar 5 17:46 - 17:47 (00:00) It looks damn much as if somebody tryed to break into my system. At the the same time the machine jupiter.zzz.ee is not at all mentioned in the messages* files (in /var/log), that is, no ftp login failures reported (it was running with the -l switch, so the failures should have been reported). As for why this mail? I wanted to ask before starting to complain at them... Sander Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 11:11:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA22952 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from paloalto.access.hp.com (paloalto.access.hp.com [15.254.56.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22923 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from srmail.sr.hp.com by paloalto.access.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA162492666; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:11:06 -0800 Received: from hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com by srmail.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA150362665; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:11:05 -0800 Received: from mina.sr.hp.com by hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA224602664; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:11:04 -0800 Message-Id: <199603191911.AA224602664@hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com> To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:52:53 +0700." Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:11:03 -0800 From: Darryl Okahata Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > Darryl says that an Ascend P50 can peak 42 kB/s. That seems > reasonable with builtin compression. How many B channels? Please take what I said with a small grain of salt, as this is only one data point. I mumbled, "... an Ascend P50 can transfer a 518694-byte /etc/hosts file in 12 seconds, for around 42Kbytes/sec ...". This is with two B channels (the second B channel was already connected when the transfer occurred, and was not established during the transfer). The transfer was also done using ftp, and the reported time was the (elapsed stopwatch) time reported by ftp. If someone wants to point me to some suitably large files, I'd be willing to do a few more transfer tests. > Is this > rate sustainable? Given similar data, I'd say that this rate is sustainable (this was done over a 12-second period), but you've got to remember that we're doing compression here; the compressibility of the data directly affects the "sustained" transfer rate. I used a very compressible ~8000-line /etc/hosts files with lines like: ######################################################################## # 15.14.138.0 Do Not Use 15.14.138.1 asc0062 asc0062.sr.hp.com # Ascend box [no mx] 15.14.138.2 hostigos hostigos.sr.hp.com # Pentium, Darryl Okahata [no mx] 15.14.138.3 rylla rylla.sr.hp.com # Pentium, Darryl Okahata [no mx] 15.14.138.4 kalvan kalvan.sr.hp.com # Pentium, Darryl Okahata [no mx] # 15.14.138.7 Do Not Use ######################################################################## The "#" comments occur frequently, as do the phrases "Do Not Use" and ".sr.hp.com" (aliases like "kalvan.sr.hp.com" are useful for brain-dead Windows-based PCs). -- Darryl Okahata Internet: darrylo@sr.hp.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Hewlett-Packard, or of the little green men that have been following him all day. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 11:41:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA24827 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24818 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA24490; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:35:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603191935.MAA24490@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD To: rich@lamprey.utmb.edu Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:35:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603190834.CAA03359@rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu> from "Rich Murphey" at Mar 19, 96 02:34:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I heard from Thomas Graichen that the mathematica > floating licence manager does not work correctly with > FreeBSD. This is (was?) the problem with the IBCS2 WordPerfect. I thought that it was fixed (wasn't it a NULL valued timeval struct or something?). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 11:43:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA24908 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:43:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.Chemie.FU-Berlin.DE [160.45.24.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24884 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Tue, 19 Mar 96 20:41 MET Received: from wavehh.UUCP by mail.hanse.de with UUCP for lenzi@cwbone.bsi.COM.BR id ; Tue, 19 Mar 96 20:41 MET Received: by wavehh.hanse.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13950; Tue, 19 Mar 96 20:33:42 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 20:33:42 +0100 From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Message-Id: <9603191933.AA13950@wavehh.hanse.de> To: lenzi@cwbone.bsi.COM.BR Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quality of BSD software Newsgroups: hanse-ml.freebsd.hackers References: Reply-To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk lenzi@cwbone.bsi.COM.BR (Lenzi, Sergio) wrote: >In an answer from a request for information about Win/U here is what >they sad: >> >> Thank you for your interest in Wind/U, which enables you to take >> your Windows applications to multiple Unix and VMS platforms >> with only a single source required. >> >> We do not support Linux or FreeBSD, primarily due to the > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> quality of the compilers that work with these operating systems. >I am very satisfyed with the quality of the BSD compilers and operating >system. In fact I think it is better than SCO or UNIXWARE compilers that >has bugs in the libc. >Can someone please evaluate this and perhaps convince the Win/U that >BSD has "quality" compilers??? Is this C++ toolkit? In that case, I wouldn't say that gcc is one of the better compilers and I think this should not be pretended. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer - Fax +49 40 522 85 36 BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:00:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA26039 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA26032 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA24558; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:54:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603191954.MAA24558@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Aust. ISDN, was Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: lehey.pad@sni.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:54:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603190944.KAA25090@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 19, 96 10:41:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If you are talking cards, well, they can be shoved through the > > approval process by an enterprising importer who wants to make > > his money on the margins on imported hardware. > > You obviously haven't seen the international telco's ideas of > approval. They differ completely from one country to another - for > example, in England they destroy the equipment to see how much it > takes to destroy it (overvoltage and such). In general, the cost of > approval only makes it interesting for large markets, such as > Germany. How many international comms products are available in > Portugal or France, for example? Then I guess they don't get comms products. And in 10 years, the rest of the countries will own their asses, at least as far as their ability to compete in the international marketplace is concerned. I predict the situation will continue as long as the intentionally work to make their markets "uninteresting". Oh well, I can't personally do anything about that... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:06:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA26325 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA26304 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA24594; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:00:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603192000.NAA24594@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: How to develop software and track current? To: lehey.pad@sni.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:00:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603191049.LAA00671@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 19, 96 11:46:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm currently about to start some active work on the ISDN software, > and I face a problem: I'm also tracking -current. How to I ensure > that I get my updates to -current and also maintain the modifications > I make to the ISDN software? The problem is compounded by the fact > that I don't get on very well with cvs, so if the following text > contains nonsense, please be nice :-) I can see a number of > possibilities: > > 1. Create a new cvs tag, say "2.2-CURRENT-grog", and put all my > changes there. The problem I anticipate here are that I won't be > able to automatically track the ctm updates. > > 2. Check my changes in to 2.2-CURRENT every evening. This seems to > have a number of potential problems: first, if I forget to check > in, I lose my updates, and secondly, somebody else might check in > files which I have changed. Presumably the latter action would > cause the cvs update to blow up. > > 3. Create a new directory outside the control of cvs. This sounds > like a real kludge. > > This is obviously a problem that a lot of people have already solved, > at least to their own satisfaction. If we can come up with a clean, > consistent way of doing it, I'll gladly contribute some documentation > on the subject. Soloutions 1 & 2 are only available if you have commit priviledges. Soloution 3 is silly. The typical way you do this without committing is to sup the CVS tree on a nightly basis. You checkout a local copy of the tree, and build there. You make your mods in the checked out tree. You use "cvs update" and "cvs diff". You submit patch sets vs. a merged tree as you see opportunities to have them reviewed by people who do have commit privs. When they are committed. the local diffs involved go away after the update following the commit. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:06:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA26371 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dima@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA26365 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:06:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603192006.MAA26365@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: new sup server To: mmead@Glock.COM (matthew c. mead) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:06:33 -0800 (PST) Cc: dima@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603191334.IAA04177@neon.Glock.COM> from "matthew c. mead" at Mar 19, 96 08:34:18 am From: dima@freebsd.org (Dima Ruban) X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk matthew c. mead writes: > > Dima Ruban writes: > > > Hi there! > > > > New sup server for current/stable/cvs is operational and ready. > > Please use it. (This server is on T3, so it should work > > pretty fast). Questions and/or comments to dima@best.net. > > Oops, almost forgot. This is sup5.freebsd.org > > > > Enjoy. > > How much lag behind freefall is it? I'm running SUP 2 times a day, 12pm and 12am > > > -matt > > -- > Matthew C. Mead > > mmead@Glock.COM > http://www.Glock.COM/~mmead/ > -- dima From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:07:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA26467 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA26439 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA24541; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:50:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603191950.MAA24541@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:50:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603190226.MAA27673@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Mar 19, 96 12:56:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > This legitimises me complaining that VC is a Windows tool, that it's a > > > Microsoft product, and that your socks are mismatched. > > > > The only valid corrolary in that list is "is a Windows tool". I didn't > > complain that it was GPL'ed ("an FSF product") and I didn't complain > > about an unrelated issue ("mismatched socks"). > > Actually, the complaints are all irrelevant, yours and mine both. The > objects are _tools_. Personal bias aside, both work reasonably well. My personal bias comes from disliking the need to add memory to run applications (as opposed to something useful, like a kernel). It's not so much the Emacs command set, per se, as the fact that it's a huge memory pig. I guess I could live with unguessable command syntax (how do you exit microEmacs, anyway?) if I had printed documentation. Which I have for VC++. Hell, I'd even be willing to pay the same several hundred dollars I paid for VC++ just to get a comparable environment with printed documentation. > > Bitching about the user interface is a legitimate gripe, considering > > *ALL* UNIX boxes come with vi and *NOT* all UNIX boxes come with Emacs. > > Not all Windows boxes come with VC either. (Fortunately 8) You're right; they don't come with a developement environment. I don't know why this is fortunate, though: I see precious little difference between writing 0's vs. 1's and 0's to a > 600M CDROM, if they are masked instead of individually burned one-offs. There is no difference in cost to Microsoft. > > How about "not having to learn a user interface"? Windows and Motif > > applications which are written in accordance with the style guides > > have the common attribute that once you learn one, you've learned > > them all (unless someone does something *stupid* and "enhances" the > > interface away from the style guide to make the product "better"). > > This is pedantry. You can use the same argument to insist that all APIs > should be the same. You're right. And I often do. And I will continue to do so. And I will continue to point to crappy design instances as to why WIN32 should not be "the one true API". > Or that hammers should have the same 'user interface' that screwdrivers do. Now *that's* pedantry... Reductio Ad Absurdum. > You've just chosen somewhere else to draw your version of the grey line. > It's a popular position for it; Apple made millions out of it, but then > twenty billion flies can't be wrong either. The implication here being that it's only worth a 8% market, ignoring the fact that Apple *chose* to have 100% of a 8% market instead of 30% of a 100% market. This was a business decision (a bad one, IMO, and in J.L. Gassee's and in Guy Kawasaki's, if their writing is to be believed), and had dick-all to do with whether their user interface was command line or clickable. If you want a majority market, you have to learn the lesson taught by the VCR clock/timer user interface. > > > > I personally *really* like "BattleMap", an IDE (Interactive Developement > > > > Environment). It doesn't run on FreeBSD, unfortunately. > > > > > > Why not? What can we do to rectify this horrific situation? 8) [ ... ] > An answer to the first would have been enough; "proprietary software". Yuck. So write a free alternative, and give it an easy to use interface like the commercial product has (and their interface *isn't* Emacs, in case you didn't guess that). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:15:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA27247 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27206 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA24618; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:05:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603192005.NAA24618@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:05:51 -0700 (MST) Cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, isdn@muc.ditec.de In-Reply-To: <1434.827244618@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 19, 96 06:10:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B > > channel, so you can use async instead". Well, yes, assuming your > > machine isn't doing anything else. To run 2 B channels flat out, > > you need a 230 kb/s line, which with standard el cheapo 16550As > > You, uh, would? 64+64 = 128Kb/s using my own calculator! :-) Hee hee. Think "allowable baud rates for serial ports". 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:19:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA27554 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27546 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:19:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA04845; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:21:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:21:49 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603192021.NAA04845@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GAS question In-Reply-To: <199603191950.MAA24541@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199603190226.MAA27673@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <199603191950.MAA24541@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Since I've been Cc'd in this message for a week now, I guess I can jump in here. ] [ VC++ vs. Emacs IDE ] > My personal bias comes from disliking the need to add memory to run > applications (as opposed to something useful, like a kernel). It's > not so much the Emacs command set, per se, as the fact that it's a > huge memory pig. And VC++ isn't? I can run Emacs IDE in a smaller memory footprint than VC++ if I leave out X. > I guess I could live with unguessable command syntax (how do you > exit microEmacs, anyway?) if I had printed documentation. Which > I have for VC++. For $150 + shipping, I could print out all of the XEmacs docs for you. :) > Hell, I'd even be willing to pay the same several hundred dollars > I paid for VC++ just to get a comparable environment with printed > documentation. $VC++ 4.0 is $495 w/out documentation. Docs are another $150 + shipping, and are now superceded by the pending VC++ 4.1 release. > > > Bitching about the user interface is a legitimate gripe, considering > > > *ALL* UNIX boxes come with vi and *NOT* all UNIX boxes come with Emacs. > > > > Not all Windows boxes come with VC either. (Fortunately 8) > > You're right; they don't come with a developement environment. I > don't know why this is fortunate, though: I see precious little > difference between writing 0's vs. 1's and 0's to a > 600M CDROM, > if they are masked instead of individually burned one-offs. There > is no difference in cost to Microsoft. Because the development team and OS team are completely separate, and have completely different release schedules. It makes no sense to have force the OS development group to rush/delay their release to sync up with the compiler group. You're arguements against using Emacs apply as well to VC++, so are moot. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:45:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA29701 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA29693 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA24685; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:30:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603192030.NAA24685@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:30:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603192021.NAA04845@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Mar 19, 96 01:21:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > not so much the Emacs command set, per se, as the fact that it's a > > huge memory pig. > > And VC++ isn't? I can run Emacs IDE in a smaller memory footprint than > VC++ if I leave out X. VC++ has a 2-4M footprint... or, actually, "Microsoft Developer Studio" has that footprint. My machine that it's installed on has 16M, but 12 of that is for Windows 95 and the broken VCACHE code for cache utilization backoff (that isn't fixed, even in their most recent update, publically available soon). If I run an FFS FS under Win95 (which I do) and crank the VCACHE parameters down, I can run in 8M. But like GCC, 8M slows the compiles down compared with 16M. > > I guess I could live with unguessable command syntax (how do you > > exit microEmacs, anyway?) if I had printed documentation. Which > > I have for VC++. > > For $150 + shipping, I could print out all of the XEmacs docs for > you. :) No thanks; i'm only interested in the IDE part. I'd like to substitute the editor for "vi" (like I do using the Microsoft tools). Of course, since my FFS on Win95 has my change in it, I get IFSFN_FCNNEXT and IFSFN_FCNCLOSE notifications on my directories, so the IDE knows that I modified the files, and reloads them automatically. 8-). > > Hell, I'd even be willing to pay the same several hundred dollars > > I paid for VC++ just to get a comparable environment with printed > > documentation. > > $VC++ 4.0 is $495 w/out documentation. Docs are another $150 + > shipping, and are now superceded by the pending VC++ 4.1 release. This is retail price. This is not what you pay for an MSDN Level 2 SDK/DDK/VC++ subscription. > Because the development team and OS team are completely separate, and > have completely different release schedules. It makes no sense to have > force the OS development group to rush/delay their release to sync up > with the compiler group. No, but vive-versa makes sense: after all, I really want the compiler that compiled the OS, not some bastard version that might in fact be unable to compile the OS properly (not like anyone tests these things anyway, if the process is decoupled). I've had the "examples" fail to build too many times to thing that decoupling the OS and compiler releases is a good idea from anything but a "marketing to fools" standpoint. > You're arguements against using Emacs apply as well to VC++, so are > moot. Not so. I can click Icon's and menus without having to remember it. Sure, I'll be less productive than someone who knows the command sets inside and out, but I'll be a hell of a lot more productive from the time they drop me in front of the machine until the time I reach parity by learning all the secrets than someone dropped naked in front of Emacs (or vi, or into writing a makefile, for that matter). And the learning curve is the name of the game. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:48:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA00138 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00131 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA04951; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:51:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:51:09 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603192051.NAA04951@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GAS question In-Reply-To: <199603192030.NAA24685@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199603192021.NAA04845@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199603192030.NAA24685@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > not so much the Emacs command set, per se, as the fact that it's a > > > huge memory pig. > > > > And VC++ isn't? I can run Emacs IDE in a smaller memory footprint than > > VC++ if I leave out X. > > VC++ has a 2-4M footprint... or, actually, "Microsoft Developer Studio" > has that footprint. My machine that it's installed on has 16M, but 12 > of that is for Windows 95 and the broken VCACHE code for cache utilization > backoff (that isn't fixed, even in their most recent update, publically > available soon). Fair enough. XEmacs has a 2-4MB footprint. But, X has an 8MB footprint, and FreeBSD a 4MB footprint, so we have about the same memory footprint. > If I run an FFS FS under Win95 (which I do) and crank the VCACHE > parameters down, I can run in 8M. But like GCC, 8M slows the > compiles down compared with 16M. I can run XEmacs in 8MB too, but it *really* slows the compiles down due to thrashing. :) > > > I guess I could live with unguessable command syntax (how do you > > > exit microEmacs, anyway?) if I had printed documentation. Which > > > I have for VC++. > > > > For $150 + shipping, I could print out all of the XEmacs docs for > > you. :) > > No thanks; i'm only interested in the IDE part. I'd like to substitute > the editor for "vi" (like I do using the Microsoft tools). 'vi' is incapable of doing all of the necessary work. Can you replace the editor in VC++ with vi? Can you replace it with *any* editor? (My biggest beef with most PC tools is that you can't replace the editor with your editor of choice.) > > > Hell, I'd even be willing to pay the same several hundred dollars > > > I paid for VC++ just to get a comparable environment with printed > > > documentation. > > > > $VC++ 4.0 is $495 w/out documentation. Docs are another $150 + > > shipping, and are now superceded by the pending VC++ 4.1 release. > > This is retail price. This is not what you pay for an MSDN Level 2 > SDK/DDK/VC++ subscription. I think I paid $695/yr for my L2 kit, plus another $495/yr for the subscription. > > Because the development team and OS team are completely separate, and > > have completely different release schedules. It makes no sense to have > > force the OS development group to rush/delay their release to sync up > > with the compiler group. > > No, but vive-versa makes sense: after all, I really want the compiler > that compiled the OS, not some bastard version that might in fact be > unable to compile the OS properly (not like anyone tests these things > anyway, if the process is decoupled). VC++ isn't the compiler the OS team uses. They use a command line compiler that is distributed with the L2 kit, not VC. (This according to someone who works at M$ in their OS group.) > > You're arguements against using Emacs apply as well to VC++, so are > > moot. > > Not so. I can click Icon's and menus without having to remember it. You can do that in XEmacs too. Don't confuse the old Emacs with the newer XEmacs release. It's the reason I switched from vi. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:53:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA00445 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00440 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA07179 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:53:16 -0800 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA18108; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:50:52 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA02647; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:50:52 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id VAA03815; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:44:24 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603192044.VAA03815@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Max User Proc killing httpd? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:44:24 +0100 (MET) Cc: david@polaris.canweb.ca Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603191358.HAA27150@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Mar 19, 96 07:58:49 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joe Greco wrote: > > Anyone know how to up this limit? > > use "limit" or "unlimit" from the shell? :-) or "ulimit" for Bourne-type shells (including FreeBSD's /bin/sh later than 2.1R). Btw., what's the opinion about pulling the "ulimit" implementation for /bin/sh into -stable? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 12:54:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA00511 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00506 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA18112; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:50:54 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA02648; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:50:54 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id VAA03844; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:45:56 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603192045.VAA03844@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:45:56 +0100 (MET) Cc: erich@lodgenet.com (Eric L. Hernes) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603191425.IAA06639@jake.lodgenet.com> from "Eric L. Hernes" at Mar 19, 96 08:25:20 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Eric L. Hernes wrote: > I had to go through some > contortions with `ls -o', chflags, and rm before they were gone completely. Remember clri(8), and fsdb(8) for recent systems. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 13:21:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA02076 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02057 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:20:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA18691 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:20:21 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA02908 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:20:21 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id WAA04195 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:02:08 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603192102.WAA04195@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:02:07 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Brian Tao" at Mar 19, 96 11:32:57 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Brian Tao wrote: > NCR53c810. fsck was spewing something nasty about bad/duplicate > inodes when it was churning through one that disk. It would be nice > if the fsck output was logged somewhere for later perusal. I've also thought about it, but it's really hard to accomplish. Your only chance is to store all the messages somewhere in Real Memory (and how it will fit), until the file systems have been checked successfully, and the data could be dumped to a disk file. Storing the messages in Virtual Memory might trash an existing core dump in the swap partititon. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 13:21:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA02088 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02059 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA18687; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:20:20 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA02907; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:20:18 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id VAA04155; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:59:33 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603192059.VAA04155@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Quality of BSD software To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:59:33 +0100 (MET) Cc: lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br (Lenzi Sergio) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Lenzi, Sergio" at Mar 19, 96 11:26:51 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Lenzi, Sergio wrote: (You forgot to mention their mail address.) > > We do not support Linux or FreeBSD, primarily due to the > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > quality of the compilers that work with these operating systems. > Can someone please evaluate this and perhaps convince the Win/U that > BSD has "quality" compilers??? Impossible. They don't *want* to be convinced. gcc does have its odds and ends, but i don't think it's an overstatemant to call it ``leading technology'' for C compilers (together with only a few commercial ones, and they are surprisingly close to gcc by design). So if the Wind/U people think that it's a low quality compiler, they clearly state that they simply don't have the least interest in your request, despite of the introductionary flowers. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 14:16:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA05357 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05351 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Tue, 19 Mar 96 17:14:38 -0500 Received: from compound (fergus-29.dialup.cfa.org) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Tue, 19 Mar 96 17:14:37 EST Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound (8.6.12/8.6.112) id QAA13071; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:14:50 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:14:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199603192214.QAA13071@compound> From: Tony Kimball To: garyj@frt.dec.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ADSL Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: garyj@frt.dec.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 18:01:48 +0100 Subject: Re: ADSL the ADSL modems also seem to be amazingly expensive ! $ 2500 ! Gimme a break. Prototypes. The first production models come off in June < $1k. What would you have paid for a codex modem in 1990, $2k? What would you pay today for the equivalent, $150? How many modems are there? How many TVs are there? We're talking about 100 million plants over the next 3 years. What kind of economies of scale apply? I'll give you a hint: Eniac cost more than a hundred million to build in constant dollars. I can get dozens of them in a birthday card for $1.50. Even if every telco in the US were to devote all of its upgrade capacity to ISDN, it would be 20 years or more before ISDN was everywhere. ADSL is everywhere *now*. there was a short blurb in one of the European rags recently (c't, Spiegel ?) regarding cable modems. The Telekom (in Germany) claimed that they could see no market for such a thing and had no plans to introduce it. You have to know that the Telekom owns just about 100 % of the cable TV connections in Germany. Cable modems are a joke. Cable companies can't plant enough fiber, they don't go out of the urban areas, and they run in a bus, so you share one ethernet with 1k other customers. This "it's available everywhere" and "ISDN is obsolete" and "by Christmas ADSL will have won the battle" (to paraphrase a little) stuff is very US centric. Worse than that, I only care about Fergus Falls, Minnesota! It's still true, whether you are in Europe or Podunk, that if you can buy a dry pair to your ISP, you can run ADSL as soon as the price curve hits your payback level. It hits mine in June. SDSL might hit before year's end. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 14:27:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA05920 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05915 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA05271; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:29:35 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:29:35 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603192229.PAA05271@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GAS question In-Reply-To: <199603192216.PAA24885@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199603192051.NAA04951@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199603192216.PAA24885@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > Fair enough. XEmacs has a 2-4MB footprint. But, X has an 8MB > > footprint, and FreeBSD a 4MB footprint, so we have about the same memory > > footprint. > > Windows95 does not have an 8M footprint. VCACHE.VXD does. And you > can "fix" it. There are undocumented settings that allow you to > manipulate its behaviour. > > Windows95 runs in 4M. That's 8M smaller than your "FreeBSD+X" > footprint (which I don't believe anyway: I ran a lab full of 386's > with 4M of memory running FreeBSD as X terminals). > > > I can run XEmacs in 8MB too, but it *really* slows the compiles down due > > to thrashing. :) > > I can run VC++ in 8M without thrashing if I set the right configuration > options. You're arguing for me. So, 4MB for FreeBSD&X + 4MB for XEmacs = 8MB. Fow Win95, we have 4MB for Win95 + 4MB for VC++ = 8MB. The same. > > > No thanks; i'm only interested in the IDE part. I'd like to substitute > > > the editor for "vi" (like I do using the Microsoft tools). > > > > 'vi' is incapable of doing all of the necessary work. Can you replace > > the editor in VC++ with vi? Can you replace it with *any* editor? (My > > biggest beef with most PC tools is that you can't replace the editor > > with your editor of choice.) > > You can edit it in a window, and the tools "know" the file has changed > and reload it. I'm sure this could be done in XEmacs as well. Still, you can't use the functions of the IDE w/out knowing the editor. > The editor is configurable, and can in fact be made to look like vi > with a lot of work (it some with default settings and a "Brief" > template). Yeah right. It's never the same, and it doesn't work as well as the editor I'm used to doing because my fingers are trained to use that mode. > > > This is retail price. This is not what you pay for an MSDN Level 2 > > > SDK/DDK/VC++ subscription. > > > > I think I paid $695/yr for my L2 kit, plus another $495/yr for the > > subscription. > > Now try to recover that in market for BSD programs. Irrelevant. You are arguing that FreeBSD has no decent IDE, and the arguement is that we do have a decent one. And it's free. > > VC++ isn't the compiler the OS team uses. They use a command line > > compiler that is distributed with the L2 kit, not VC. (This according > > to someone who works at M$ in their OS group.) > > You are confusing the replacement LINK386.EXE that shipped on the > DDK CDROM. VC++ is now at 4.0, which includes the VXD-capable linker. No, the *compiler* is separate from VC++. Seriously. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 14:31:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA06264 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:31:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA06257 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA09259 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:31:33 -0800 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA24885; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:16:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603192216.PAA24885@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:16:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603192051.NAA04951@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Mar 19, 96 01:51:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Fair enough. XEmacs has a 2-4MB footprint. But, X has an 8MB > footprint, and FreeBSD a 4MB footprint, so we have about the same memory > footprint. Windows95 does not have an 8M footprint. VCACHE.VXD does. And you can "fix" it. There are undocumented settings that allow you to manipulate its behaviour. Windows95 runs in 4M. That's 8M smaller than your "FreeBSD+X" footprint (which I don't believe anyway: I ran a lab full of 386's with 4M of memory running FreeBSD as X terminals). > I can run XEmacs in 8MB too, but it *really* slows the compiles down due > to thrashing. :) I can run VC++ in 8M without thrashing if I set the right configuration options. > > No thanks; i'm only interested in the IDE part. I'd like to substitute > > the editor for "vi" (like I do using the Microsoft tools). > > 'vi' is incapable of doing all of the necessary work. Can you replace > the editor in VC++ with vi? Can you replace it with *any* editor? (My > biggest beef with most PC tools is that you can't replace the editor > with your editor of choice.) You can edit it in a window, and the tools "know" the file has changed and reload it. The editor is configurable, and can in fact be made to look like vi with a lot of work (it some with default settings and a "Brief" template). > > This is retail price. This is not what you pay for an MSDN Level 2 > > SDK/DDK/VC++ subscription. > > I think I paid $695/yr for my L2 kit, plus another $495/yr for the > subscription. Now try to recover that in market for BSD programs. > VC++ isn't the compiler the OS team uses. They use a command line > compiler that is distributed with the L2 kit, not VC. (This according > to someone who works at M$ in their OS group.) You are confusing the replacement LINK386.EXE that shipped on the DDK CDROM. VC++ is now at 4.0, which includes the VXD-capable linker. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 14:49:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA07658 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA07617 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA02582; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:33:11 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603192303.JAA02582@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: How to develop software and track current? To: lehey.pad@sni.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:33:10 +1030 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603191049.LAA00671@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 19, 96 11:46:24 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey stands accused of saying: > > 3. Create a new directory outside the control of cvs. This sounds > like a real kludge. This is how I do it. I take a snapshot of the kernel as it stands at a given point, park it somewhere, then symlink out of it into a seperate directory that holds the files I'm actually working on. > Greg -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 14:56:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA08169 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08136 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA24984; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:50:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603192250.PAA24984@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:50:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603192229.PAA05271@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Mar 19, 96 03:29:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Irrelevant. You are arguing that FreeBSD has no decent IDE, and the > arguement is that we do have a decent one. And it's free. XEmacs itself is simply insufficient. How do I redock button-bars? Where is the button for "books online"? Where are the buttons for "New Menu", "New Dialog", "New Cursor", "New Icon", "New Bitmap", "New Toolbar", "New Accelerator", "New String Table", "New Version", or "Component Gallery"? Where is the "App Wizard" (context sensitive help) class I can "attach" to my application? Clipboards? Dialog bars? Document Registration? (let alone a desktop manager to register *with*...) Idle time processing handler hook? MAPI (or I guess, for UNIX, MIME/SMTP) library? OLE (I guess REXX?)? Custom combo-box controls? Color Pallette? Secure password dialogs? Popup menu control classes? Progress dialogs, property sheets (and, again, a desktop manager to register *with*...) "Splash Screen" for putting up copyright and version information? Split Bars? Status Bars? System information API for inclusion in "about" dialogs? "Tip of the day" provider interface for each time the application is run? "Tooltip" support? (where if you leave your cursor on a component for a second with no action, it decribes the component) Multimedia APIs? Sockets class interface? I haven't even mentioned OLE-specific control classes... Being able to compile and trace errors is a *tiny* part of an IDE... > > You are confusing the replacement LINK386.EXE that shipped on the > > DDK CDROM. VC++ is now at 4.0, which includes the VXD-capable linker. > > No, the *compiler* is separate from VC++. Seriously. No, the assembler and linker were seperate until MASM 6.1 and VC++ 4.0, seriously. I just went and looked at my SDK and DDK CDROMs... and there is no compiler on the things. Just the MASM (assembler itself, only) and LINK386.EXE and LINK386.ERR files needed because of the COFF/ELF changeover (I've been doing Win95 developement for more than a year now, including working on code for FSD's, TSD's, miniport drivers, and network redirectors). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 14:59:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA08390 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08379 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA05472; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:02:13 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:02:13 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603192302.QAA05472@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GAS question In-Reply-To: <199603192250.PAA24984@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199603192229.PAA05271@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199603192250.PAA24984@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > Irrelevant. You are arguing that FreeBSD has no decent IDE, and the > > arguement is that we do have a decent one. And it's free. > > XEmacs itself is simply insufficient. > > How do I redock button-bars? > > Where is the button for "books online"? Tools. > Where are the buttons for "New Menu", "New Dialog", "New Cursor", > "New Icon", "New Bitmap", "New Toolbar", "New Accelerator", "New > String Table", "New Version", or "Component Gallery"? Those *aren't* part of the IDE. They are part of a graphical application development tool, but not an IDE. Turbo Pascal was the original IDE on the PC, and it had none of the things you mentioned. > Being able to compile and trace errors is a *tiny* part of an IDE... Being able to grab stuff off the button-bar is *NOT* part of an IDE. Arguing with you is useless because when people refute the points you make, you change the topic or the rules. If I continue, somehow this will all boil down to an arguement for VM86() mode, and I don't want to even hear that again. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 15:03:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA08850 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA08845 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-082.etinc.com (ppp-082.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA04017; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:05:46 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:05:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199603192305.SAA04017@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hm@altona.hamburg.com From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>From the keyboard of Greg Lehey: > >> > my ISP only offers ISDN over PPP. He says, if you use HDLC, then we have >> > to assign you a permanent IP address. > >I wanted a class-C network and my ISP is happy that i use HDLC because it >is the fastest way and is setup and operated without _any_ problems (in >contrast to the Windows weenies using the most hip PPP implementation of >the day). Lets be careful with our terminology.....Sync PPP is run over HDLC. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 15:10:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA09231 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09226 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA02678; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:52:21 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603192322.JAA02678@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: GAS question To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:52:20 +1030 (CST) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603192030.NAA24685@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 19, 96 01:30:48 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > You're arguements against using Emacs apply as well to VC++, so are > > moot. > > Not so. I can click Icon's and menus without having to remember it. Ah. So you haven't actually _compared_ the two then. Or hadn't you realised that Xemacs' IDE has clickable (and programmable) icons, menus, language-sensitive syntax colourisation, paren-checking, automatic language-sensitive indentation (programmable to cover almost any indentation style) etc. ad nauseam. It's obviously been a while 8) > parity by learning all the secrets than someone dropped naked in > front of Emacs (or vi, or into writing a makefile, for that matter). Don't buy it. If the victim is a halfway competent programmer, then they'll have the nousse to work themselves out quickly enough. If they're a trained monkey, you don't want them in the first place. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 15:27:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA10266 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA10257 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA25193; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:21:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603192321.QAA25193@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:21:16 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603192302.QAA05472@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Mar 19, 96 04:02:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Where are the buttons for "New Menu", "New Dialog", "New Cursor", > > "New Icon", "New Bitmap", "New Toolbar", "New Accelerator", "New > > String Table", "New Version", or "Component Gallery"? > > Those *aren't* part of the IDE. They are part of a graphical > application development tool, but not an IDE. Turbo Pascal was the > original IDE on the PC, and it had none of the things you mentioned. The IDE *IS* the graphical application developement tool. You can argue "Turbo Pascal" until you are blue in the face, but the fact is that we are competing with VC++ and Borland Professional C++ for the hearts and minds of developers. If we compete at the "Turbo Pascal" level, then we've already lost, since it makes us horribly and irrevocably antiquated. > > Being able to compile and trace errors is a *tiny* part of an IDE... > > Being able to grab stuff off the button-bar is *NOT* part of an IDE. This is silly. I can do it in my "Microsoft Developer's Studio", I *should* be able to do it in my "FreeBSD DEveloper's Studio". If you want to call this something other than an IDE, that's your perogative (won't make you right, though). > Arguing with you is useless because when people refute the points you > make, you change the topic or the rules. If I continue, somehow this > will all boil down to an arguement for VM86() mode, and I don't want to > even hear that again. :) You could argue that running VC++ with a working WILLOWS or WIND/U would be sufficient... but neither of those require a VM86() mode. I think that the fact that the environment isn't protected mode and so developement is fundamentally more difficult is what has driven the DOS tools. The point is, that for the specific case of the IDE, the tools are simply unavailable under UNIX, or at least 10 times as costly (if we get off the Emacs-based "IDE" as unqualified to lick Microsoft's IDE's feet). I've *given* UNIX examples: IDEA, BattelMap, etc.. That should be next target for GNU. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 15:33:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA10816 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA10807 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA25206; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:23:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603192323.QAA25206@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:23:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603192322.JAA02678@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Mar 20, 96 09:52:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > You're arguements against using Emacs apply as well to VC++, so are > > > moot. > > > > Not so. I can click Icon's and menus without having to remember it. > > Ah. So you haven't actually _compared_ the two then. Or hadn't you > realised that Xemacs' IDE has clickable (and programmable) icons, > menus, language-sensitive syntax colourisation, paren-checking, automatic > language-sensitive indentation (programmable to cover almost any > indentation style) etc. ad nauseam. > > It's obviously been a while 8) It has buttons; I'll give you that. They don't do the same (or as many) "IDE things" as Microsoft's ompeting buttons. [ ... ] > Don't buy it. If the victim is a halfway competent programmer, then they'll > have the nousse to work themselves out quickly enough. > If they're a trained monkey, you don't want them in the first place. Trained monkeys write most of todays applications. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 16:09:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA13053 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13043 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA04161; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:11:49 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:11:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199603200011.TAA04161@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Tony Kimball From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: ADSL Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 12:27:29 MET > From: Greg Lehey > Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) > X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) > > What is ADSL? This is the first time I've heard of it. Are the > speeds you mention without compression? > >Asymmetric Digital Subscriber Line. See Dan Kegel's page at >http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~dank/isdn/adsl.html > > > ISDN is obsolete. > > Is ADSL available everywhere? Does every ISP who supports ISDN also > support ADSL? Can you use it for telephones and faxes? If not, you > can't make that claim. > >ADSL is available everywhere, because all it takes is a pair of wires. >If your ISP won't support ADSL, you will be needing a new ISP. >Yes, you can use the same line for POTS and Fax. > >There is not a great deal of correlation between technical obsolescence >and market share, and I can say what I like because words mean what >I tell them to mean:) > >ISDN was obsolete before it ever got started. How long will people be >willing to pay for a 115kb link once commodity 2nd-gen ADSL modems >give them a link at 1-8Mb for the same price? No, a factor of 10-80 >in performance, the opportunity for real videoconferencing and VOD >is just too much weight for ISDN to bear. PairGain modems come out >in June, and the Willtel CAP offering comes out in October. You may >argue about the relative obsolescence of ISDN today, but come >Christmas time, any further arguments will be silly. And how many "dial-up" users will be willing to pay for 1-8Mbs of backbone bandwidth? It seems unlikly that many ISPs will have the backbone bandwidth to allow all of their customers to enjoy these speeds at ISDN like prices. ISPs will need a roomful of Cisco 7000s, which should make the price just about unreachable for almost anyone. You've been reading Network World again, haven't you? Dennis BTW: ADSL is largely monodirectional (like 240kbs in one direction and 1.?? meg downstream). In any event, you'd better crank up the crystals on those 16550's boys.....~~~~~.whoooosh...... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 16:13:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA13414 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from multivac.orthanc.com (root@multivac.orthanc.com [206.12.238.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13409 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lyndon@localhost) by multivac.orthanc.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA24546 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:13:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603200013.QAA24546@multivac.orthanc.com> From: Lyndon Nerenberg VE7TCP To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: APOP support in MH? X-Attribution: VE7TCP Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:13:04 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone patched MH such that the APOP support compiles? Right now it uses the ancient dbm*() routines, and that eeevil page locking macro. --lyndon From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 16:18:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA13820 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13815 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Tue, 19 Mar 96 19:18:07 -0500 Received: from compound (fergus-29.dialup.cfa.org) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Tue, 19 Mar 96 19:18:05 EST Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound (8.6.12/8.6.112) id SAA11217; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:18:30 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:18:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199603200018.SAA11217@compound> From: Tony Kimball To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GAS question Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Nate Williams Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:21:49 -0700 Subject: Re: GAS question > not so much the Emacs command set, per se, as the fact that it's a > huge memory pig. And VC++ isn't? I can run Emacs IDE in a smaller memory footprint than VC++ if I leave out X. 5MB for emacs w/X. I'm guessing 4MB for vc++. Emacs tends to keep a lot resident on my machine, but then I rarely swap so I don't complain. > I guess I could live with unguessable command syntax (how do you > exit microEmacs, anyway?) if I had printed documentation. Which > I have for VC++. So buy the doc from FSF. That's not hard. You get a half-decent Lisp environment too. Actually, it seems a worthwhile effort to provide a stone-dumb interface package for X Emacs, and a VC++-mode, just to lure in the suckers. Once they write an elisp rmail sorter, they're hooked for life. What would need to be added to Emacs? 1) Alt-C Alt-V Alt-X Alt-Z F-keys, in compile-mode bindings 2) More menu items 3) Improvements to tags 4) dissassembler From: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:30:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: GAS question VC++ has a 2-4M footprint... or, actually, "Microsoft Developer Studio" has that footprint. My machine that it's installed on has 16M, but 12 of that is for Windows 95 and the broken VCACHE code for cache utilization backoff (that isn't fixed, even in their most recent update, publically available soon). The speed difference between a VC++ build-all w/16MB and one with 32MB is almost a factor of two for me. For gmake on a similarly sized project it is less than 10%. This is WinNT vs FBSD. > $VC++ 4.0 is $495 w/out documentation. Docs are another $150 + > shipping, and are now superceded by the pending VC++ 4.1 release. This is retail price. This is not what you pay for an MSDN Level 2 SDK/DDK/VC++ subscription. You don't get VC++ w/ the level 2 subscription (which was $495/an last I bought in). You get it w/ the level 3 subscription (which I *think* is $995/an). > You're arguements against using Emacs apply as well to VC++, so are > moot. Not so. I can click Icon's and menus without having to remember it. That is true enough. But then I don't remember the Emacs key commands myself. My fingers do. Emacs is my login shell on some machines, so I suppose I'm biased. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 16:26:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA14405 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA14400 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Tue, 19 Mar 96 19:26:02 -0500 Received: from compound (fergus-29.dialup.cfa.org) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Tue, 19 Mar 96 19:25:59 EST Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound (8.6.12/8.6.112) id SAA11274; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:26:23 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:26:23 -0600 Message-Id: <199603200026.SAA11274@compound> From: Tony Kimball To: dennis@etinc.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603200011.TAA04161@etinc.com> (dennis@etinc.com) Subject: Re: ADSL Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk And how many "dial-up" users will be willing to pay for 1-8Mbs of backbone bandwidth? It seems unlikly that many ISPs will have the backbone bandwidth to allow all of their customers to enjoy these speeds at ISDN like prices. ISPs will need a roomful of Cisco 7000s, which should make the price just about unreachable for almost anyone. 99.9% of that bandwidth is going to go to VOD. Me, I just want to push the bottleneck out of my house into the ISP premises, then I'm happy. If the ISP is inadequate to my needs, I'll shop for another ISP. You've been reading Network World again, haven't you? Never touch the stuff. Allergic to paper. BTW: ADSL is largely monodirectional (like 240kbs in one direction and 1.?? meg downstream). In any event, you'd better crank up the crystals on those 16550's boys.....~~~~~.whoooosh...... SDSL is symmetric. If you feel the need for 4Mb uploads you can either wait for SDSL to be competetive or run dual ADSL. In most of USWest country, it's still cheaper than ISDN, although doubling the hardware and lease costs does push the payback out from a few months to a couple of years. And yes, it would be rather silly to run ADSL on a serial port. It's already silly to run ISDN on a serial port, at least if you want to run anything else at the same time. For a NetStation, it might make sense. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 16:28:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA14614 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14597 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:28:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA08031; Tue, 19 Mar 96 19:27:31 -0500 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id AAA02973; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:27:26 GMT Message-Id: <199603200027.AAA02973@exalt.x.org> To: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GAS question In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:50:08 EDT. <199603192250.PAA24984@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:27:26 EDT From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What does this pissing contest have to do with -hackers or FreeBSD??? > > > > You are confusing the replacement LINK386.EXE that shipped on the > > > DDK CDROM. VC++ is now at 4.0, which includes the VXD-capable linker. > > > > No, the *compiler* is separate from VC++. Seriously. > > No, the assembler and linker were seperate until MASM 6.1 and VC++ 4.0, > seriously. > > I just went and looked at my SDK and DDK CDROMs... and there is no > compiler on the things. Just the MASM (assembler itself, only) and > LINK386.EXE and LINK386.ERR files needed because of the COFF/ELF > changeover (I've been doing Win95 developement for more than a > year now, including working on code for FSD's, TSD's, miniport > drivers, and network redirectors). > Which SDK? I know for a fact that the (now two and a half year old) Windows NT 3.1 Win32 SDK had the C compiler on it. Over six years ago when I bought the Windows 3.0 SDK the compiler (MSC 5.0/5.1) was a separate item, but now you can't go into Egghead and buy an SDK -- you have to buy a subscription to the M'soft Developers Network to get it. I haven't looked at the latest CD we got from the MDN but I was under the impression that the subscription included the latest compilers. Are you sure the compiler isn't on your SDK CD? The command line compiler driver since MSC 4.0 days was and still is `CL.EXE` and the code generator and optimizer are `C1.EXE` and `C2.EXE` repectively. They were in the copy of VC++ 2.0 we bought last year; I have a tough time believing it's not in the SDK or VC++ 4.0. As for the linker, in its various incarnations, M'soft has been giving it away with the OS since at least DOS 2.0, and with every release of MASM, Pascal, C, and COBOL compilers for as long as I can remember. I haven't seen a copy of MASM for sale in a long time; but no unbundled M'soft compiler product has ever included a copy of it (to my knowledge.) -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 17:05:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA17070 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA17065 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:05:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA11204; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:08:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:08:53 -0800 (PST) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Silly question I'm sure... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FreeBSD 2.2-current. 2 3com cards in it. Why does the first card broadcast show up on link#1, while the second shows up as ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff? Why doesnt' it show up on link#2? 204.118.244.255 link#1 UHLW 1 26 206.107.17 link#2 UC 0 0 206.107.17.255 ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff UHLW 0 1 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 17:07:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA17145 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA17137 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA16306 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:07:20 -0800 Message-Id: <199603200107.RAA16306@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:07:19 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (I'm really pissed, so I probably shouldn't be sending this. I'll try not to flame, no promises though.) *Why* the hell is adding a 2nd disk to a currently running OS Guru level lore? It should be a turnkey operation like it is on other UNIX. Searching the archives and the docs produces *no* useful information, other than the fact that this is a FAQ and no one seems to answer it. Yet the sysinstall program knows how to do it. Is that magic code repackagable somewhere as "installdisk" or something? Oh, and using the current sysinstall program only succeeded in removing all the device nodes on my current partition. So to summarize: WHY ISN'T THIS EASIER and WHAT CAN SOMEONE DO TO MAKE IT EASIER. Feh. ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< What seems to be absurdity and is not, is better than the ignorance of the man who thinks it is absurd. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 17:16:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA17809 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17634 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA03507; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:59:20 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603200129.LAA03507@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: IDE To: kim@dde.dk (Kim Andersen) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:59:19 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9603191113.AA18550@nessie.dde.dk> from "Kim Andersen" at Mar 19, 96 11:13:30 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kim Andersen stands accused of saying: > > > > Xf is wonderful, but tied to outdated versions of Tcl/Tk. If someone were > > to bring it up to date, the Tk community would be extatic. Unfortunately, > > Sven appears to have better things to do with his time 8( > > > Sven Delmas recently announced a patch made by Timberwolf, to bring XF upto > Tcl7.4/Tk4.0, (might work with Tcl7.5/Tk4.1). > The patch can be found at: > http://www.cimetrix.com/sven Doesn't work too well 8( I'll stick to using it for visual design 8( > kim -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 17:24:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA18481 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA18457 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id JAA02581; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:58:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603191758.JAA02581@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: new sup server To: mmead@Glock.COM (matthew c. mead) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:58:57 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: dima@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603191334.IAA04177@neon.Glock.COM> from "matthew c. mead" at Mar 19, 96 08:34:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In fact what is the lag behing all the servers.. can we find out the update schedules for them? it helps US shedule OUR updates.. julian > > Dima Ruban writes: > > > Hi there! > > > > New sup server for current/stable/cvs is operational and ready. > > Please use it. (This server is on T3, so it should work > > pretty fast). Questions and/or comments to dima@best.net. > > Oops, almost forgot. This is sup5.freebsd.org > > > > Enjoy. > > How much lag behind freefall is it? > > > -matt > > -- > Matthew C. Mead > > mmead@Glock.COM > http://www.Glock.COM/~mmead/ > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 17:48:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA20051 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20045 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:48:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA11527; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:52:12 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:52:12 -0800 (PST) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Connection reset by peer between 2 FBSD machines. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 2 of my FreeBSD boxes (running various late versions of -current), are kicking these messages out during a variety of networking operations between the two. It is inconsistent, ie, it will work 10 times in a row, then fail the 11th, then work 1 more, then fail, then work a bunch more, then fail, then fail 10 times in a row, then work again. The easiest way to reproduce it has been with using popclient talking to the qualcomm pop server. Just keep hitting !!, and it will fail with that errno on the server side regularly. Any ideas where to start? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 17:50:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA20260 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from rogerswave.ca (mail.rogerswave.ca [198.231.117.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA20229 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:50:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (wong.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by rogerswave.ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA26447; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:49:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:39:35 -0500 (EST) From: Wong To: Jerry Kendall cc: Terry Lambert , "Amancio Hasty Jr." , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) In-Reply-To: <96Mar19.091825est.18434-2@janus.border.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Jerry Kendall wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Wong wrote: > > > > > > I am using it right now. it is $39 Cdn/month. got alot of problem > > > > > but this could be the ISP is too green > > I am sorry, but, I was not following this until now, where is this ISP ??? > Web info, name etc.... would be good... The domain is rogerswave.ca. they had a firewall preventing all external access. we are fighting to have the firewall removed at the moment. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 18:19:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA21471 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:19:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from schwing.ginsu.com (schwing.ginsu.com [205.210.24.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA21464 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from geoff@localhost) by schwing.ginsu.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA15634; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:16:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:16:10 -0500 (EST) From: Geoff Wells To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: WANs and FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I've just been given the task of putting together a WAN involving ISDN, Frame and Leased Lines to a number of our clients. As always, this must be a cost effective solution involving firewalls at each end point. I'd love to be able to recommend FreeBSD for the job but I'm not sure about implementations for each of the delivery systems (ISDN, Frame & dedicated). Has anyone done this? Are there success stories out there for this type of implementation? The clients don't want routers at every site so we have to go with an architecture that will handle all of the above situations. Any help would be welcome as I've just been handed this and the deadline was yesterday. Thanks, Geoff. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 18:23:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA21738 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:23:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA21705 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA25663; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:16:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603200216.TAA25663@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: new sup server To: julian@ref.tfs.com (JULIAN Elischer) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:16:05 -0700 (MST) Cc: mmead@Glock.COM, dima@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603191758.JAA02581@ref.tfs.com> from "JULIAN Elischer" at Mar 19, 96 09:58:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In fact what is the lag behing all the servers.. > can we find out the update schedules for them? > it helps US shedule OUR updates.. If they updated 3 times a day, you wouldn't care which server you got if all you updated was once a day. Lag time is only required for 2 or less updates a day by the secondary. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 18:24:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA21849 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from date.sci.csupomona.edu (date.sci.csupomona.edu [134.71.25.82]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA21844 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:24:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (jehamby@localhost) by date.sci.csupomona.edu (8.6.8/8.6.8) id SAA03297; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:24:05 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:24:05 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Can we run Solaris binaries? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I know this has been covered before, but what is the status (as of -current) for running SVR4 ELF binaries under FreeBSD? The reason I ask is that I just ordered a copy of Solaris 2.5 for x86 (at the low low academic discount price of $119), basically for the goodies (Motif, CDE, Deskset tools, WABI, Display Postscript, XGL/XIL, etc..), which ultimately I would like to run under FreeBSD. If I copy all the shared libraries and the applications to my FreeBSD partition, what are the chances that I can run them in ELF emulation mode? If this doesn't work, that is one area I would like to try to hack on, especially since we can already run Linux AND FreeBSD ELF binaries, and, for my purposes, I won't need to emulate the shared libraries. Comments? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jake Hamby | E-Mail: jehamby@cs.sci.csupomona.edu Student, Cal Poly University, Pomona | System Administrator, JPL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 18:26:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA21962 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21957 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA04116; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:08:50 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603200238.NAA04116@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ADSL To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:08:49 +1030 (CST) Cc: garyj@frt.dec.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603192214.QAA13071@compound> from "Tony Kimball" at Mar 19, 96 04:14:50 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tony Kimball stands accused of saying: > > Worse than that, I only care about Fergus Falls, Minnesota! > It's still true, whether you are in Europe or Podunk, that if > you can buy a dry pair to your ISP, you can run ADSL as soon as > the price curve hits your payback level. It hits mine in June. > SDSL might hit before year's end. ...while telco's the world around are cancelling all their 'dry-pair' lines as fast as they can. They stop being available in any practical sense here about June, if the grapevine can be trusted. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 18:56:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA23478 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from RWSystems.net (root@rwsystr.nkn.net [204.251.23.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23347 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from madsoft by RWSystems.net with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tzDz2-0001bvC; Tue, 19 Mar 96 20:50 CST Received: by madsoft.lonestar.org (Smail3.1.27.1 #20) id m0tzDpX-000CRNC; Tue, 19 Mar 96 20:40 WET Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 20:40 CST To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: mike@madsoft.lonestar.org (Mike) Sent: Tue Mar 19 1996, 20:40:55 CST Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #986 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg writes: [1]Is ADSL available everywhere? Sure! Everywhere in certain TELCO equipment mfgrs labs and a few TINY test markets. ADSL service is not even up to "limited" areas yet. Contact your PUC and see if there are any tariffs on how to charge for ADSL service. If there aren't any on file, then the service doesn't exist in your area. Why offer it if they haven't figured out how to charge for it? [1]Does every ISP who supports ISDN also support ADSL? Hardly. Many TELCOs still don't support ISDN even though it has been around for nearly 20 years. ISDN in SouthWestern Bell service areas is priced so that no consumers will buy it and keep it ($500 setup+$60/month+ metering in some areas @.02/min), which is good since they use their backup 5ESS switches to handle the ISDN service (the one in the corner on the cart) in many exchanges, including downtown Dallas. If the primary switch goes down, they unplug all the ISDN lines, roll over the backup and use it as the emergency backup switch. ISDN customers are out of service until things return to normal. Bet that level of service quality is not covered by the SWB $25 reliability/satisfaction guarantee! This dual-switch scheme also limits how well ISDN will ever work in these areas. The reason they do this is that they don't want to upgrade the primary switch to support ISDN. As to the ISPs supporting ISDN, it depends on the marketing, the area, sometimes it also depends on where you live vs where they live. Some TELCOs really screw you on using ISDN specifically to access an ISP. Example, if you habitually call the same exchange using ISDN (like you would to call your ISP) and the call is routed via three exchanges, you may find a penalty charge of 3x your normal monthly charge for those other ISDN circuits you "tied-up" to get from your local exchange to the ISP. Again, this is SWB I'm using as an example, not a TELCO that is serious about offering ISDN to non-business users who get alarmed by $240+ monthly ISDN bills for local calls to a ISP eight miles away. [1]Can you use it for telephones and faxes? Nope, not in the analog sense. Certainly not in the "dry-wire" leased line example provided, but ADSL is really meant to be data service. Also, I understood the return channel to only be 500Kbit/sec, not 640. Someone is claiming forward channel of 16Mbit on ADSL which I also think is wrong. I think they are getting token-ring speeds mixed-up. :-) Of course, getting the ISP to let you bring dry wire and your modems into their facility is another matter. You probably will have as much luck getting them to let you use one of those 20mile/10Mbit spread spectrum transmitters that make the connections over the air. Mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 19:30:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA25773 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25767 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA03351; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:29:43 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:22:14 +0700." <199603191524.QAA18356@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:29:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3349.827292583@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Watch my lips. A B channel gives you 64,000 bits per second. When you > add one start bit and one stop bit for every 8 bits, you end up with > 80,000 bits. Bind two such channels together and you have 160,000 Your lips don't make any sense.. :-) You SUBTRACT the start bit and stop bit, you don't ADD it dude! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 19:37:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA26245 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:37:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA26227 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA25880; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:31:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603200331.UAA25880@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GAS question To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:31:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603200027.AAA02973@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Mar 19, 96 07:27:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What does this pissing contest have to do with -hackers or FreeBSD??? Viability as a commercial OS to tempt weenies who need IDE's to be able to program at all. > > I just went and looked at my SDK and DDK CDROMs... and there is no > > compiler on the things. > > Which SDK? I know for a fact that the (now two and a half year old) > Windows NT 3.1 Win32 SDK had the C compiler on it. There is the problem. I am talking Windows95 (which is, itself, more of a commercial succes than NT as well). > They were in the copy of VC++ 2.0 we bought last year; I have a tough > time believing it's not in the SDK or VC++ 4.0. It's in VC++ 4.0, of course. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 20:01:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA28080 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA28075 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA03497; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:01:08 -0800 (PST) To: Tony Kimball cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ADSL In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:52:02 CST." <199603191652.KAA10764@compound> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:01:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3495.827294468@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'll emit an evil laugh as I watch Europe sink into the stone age:) Haha! Too late, they're already IN the stone age! Bronze weapons would be a step up, I think.. :-) [Now all my European friends will hurl fruit, I'm sure, though I might suggest that their anger would be better directed at the obese monopolies which are KEEPING them there :-)] Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 20:53:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA02021 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA01987 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA23122; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:49:27 +1100 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:49:27 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603200449.PAA23122@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de, lehey.pad@sni.de Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B > channel, so you can use async instead". Well, yes, assuming your > machine isn't doing anything else. To run 2 B channels flat out, > you need a 230 kb/s line, which with standard el cheapo 16550As > will give you 23000 interrupts per second. This is enough to > max out a slow 386. In my experience, it's also enough to cause 16550's have a fifo that reduces the number of interrupts/second by a factor of about 16. The maximum number of interrupts/sec at 230400 bps should be approx. 23040 / N input interrupts and 23040 / 16 output interrupts, where N is the fifo trigger level. N is 14 in FreeBSD. This is probably too large for a slow 386 at 230400 bps, so conservatively assume N = 8 for a total number of interrupts/sec of 4320. This isn't many, since even a slow 386 can handle about 20000 interrupts/sec. I often stress-test a 486/33 with 50000 interrupts/sec. 8250's are a convenient source for the interrupts. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 21:49:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA05231 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA05219 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA10713; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:47:39 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199603200547.HAA10713@grumble.grondar.za> To: Lyndon Nerenberg VE7TCP cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: APOP support in MH? Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:47:38 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Lyndon Nerenberg VE7TCP wrote: > Has anyone patched MH such that the APOP support compiles? Right now > it uses the ancient dbm*() routines, and that eeevil page locking macro. There are some pre-release patches of MH 6.8.4 out that have done a lot of work in this direction. Watch for when the update comes out. It is being a bit slow. M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 22:33:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA07010 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07005 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA05914; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:11:18 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603200641.RAA05914@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:11:18 +1030 (CST) Cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de In-Reply-To: <3349.827292583@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 19, 96 07:29:43 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > Watch my lips. A B channel gives you 64,000 bits per second. When you > > add one start bit and one stop bit for every 8 bits, you end up with > > 80,000 bits. Bind two such channels together and you have 160,000 > > Your lips don't make any sense.. :-) You SUBTRACT the start bit and > stop bit, you don't ADD it dude! Ah, sorry Jordan. He's quite correct. 64kb/sec of _data_ requires 80kb/sec on an async line, because you have to _add_ start and stop bits to _make_ it async. We've had this discussion before 8) > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 23:22:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA09752 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA09747 Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:22:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603200722.XAA09747@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: Host localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: Odd-looking files in lost+found after fsck? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:20:08 +0100." <199603182320.AAA29294@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:22:20 -0800 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >As Brian Tao wrote: > >> The filesystem holds our entire Apache document tree. The first >> two regular files are log files for one of our virtual domains, and I >> don't know what the third is. But what could have created the two >> block special files? A pipe? > >Trash written all over an i-node block. > >Is this with an `ahc' driver (it's the only one where i've ever seen >this, too)? If so, is this plain 2.1R, or a newer one? Justin was >sure that he's been fixing these kind of problems meanwhile. Its not really a driver specific problem. It all depends on what you were doing when the bus stuffed up. The real problem IMHO is that fsck is pathological in cases where it probably doesn't have to be. Of course I'm also working on making the SCSI drivers more robust to these types of errors too, but someone should go look at fsck. >-- >cheers, J"org > >joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE >Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 23:50:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA11891 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11867 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA04245; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:48:29 -0800 (PST) To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com cc: hackers@freebsd.org, isdn%muc.ditec.de@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:53:52 +0100." <9603191553.AA07759@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:48:29 -0800 Message-ID: <4243.827308109@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > boy, this is screwed up. Have you considered getting a pair of > Lion DataPumps ? See Julian Stacey's home page on freefall. These > look just like internal modems, support PPP on-board and channel > bonding too. AFAIK, Barry has an office in the US now. I might just do this.. It's getting a little stupid at this point. > Of course, it would be really nice if you waited Teles out so you > could test the ISDN stuff in the US :) :-) I'm willing if they are! > It's not a matter of the Teles cards not supporting it. They can handle > 2 B-channels simultaneously w/o any problem. It's hacking it into > the kernel. What do we use as the protocol ? MPP ? BACP (unbelievably > ugly !) ? Home-made ? Everyone from Motorola to ADTRAN seems to go the "home made" route, so.. > nothing easier ! Just enter the incoming/outgoing phone numbers into > /etc/isdn and say "telnet the-other-guy" and, hey presto !, the Ah. Well then. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 23:53:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA12115 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12082 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA04715 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:53:19 +0100 Message-Id: <199603200753.IAA04715@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 8:50:36 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) In-Reply-To: <199603191637.LAA03328@etinc.com>; from "dennis" at Mar 19, 96 11:37 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dennis says: >> Well, I've been away from the list for a few days, and so much has >> come in that I don't think it would make sense to respond to each >> message individually, so here's a summary: >> >> 1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B >> channel, so you can use async instead". > > This is the funniest thing I've ever heard......LOL Hmm. From that comment, I don't know if you're agreeing with me or not. Certainly the part you quote didn't come across well: what I was trying to say was Some people say "the bottleneck is the B channel, so using async as well doesn't add any further load". I'll stick to that. Using async to connect to an ISDN B channel is a dinosaur. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 19 23:59:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA12343 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12337 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA04306; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:59:31 -0800 (PST) To: "Mike O'Dell" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: install to sd1 from CDROM???? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:46:04 EST." <199603191846.NAA00208@elmo.uu.net> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:59:31 -0800 Message-ID: <4304.827308771@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > i see no obvious way to do an install to a second scsi disk > from the CDROM install thing..... what am I missing??? Uh.. The obvious? :-) Just select both disks in the fdisk editor, don't touch the first one except to install a boot manager (as is necessary due to PC BIOS limitations) and install your FreeBSD partition on the second. Label and install normally. This is also covered in the install docs.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 00:02:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA12546 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12536 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA05305 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:02:08 +0100 Message-Id: <199603200802.JAA05305@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 8:59:27 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN), hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) In-Reply-To: <9603191615.AA19570@cssmuc.frt.dec.com>; from "garyj@frt.dec.com" at Mar 19, 96 5:15 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Jennejohn writes: > > lehey.pad@sni.de writes: >> They could well be right. That's one of the reasons why we're waiting >> for you to install the stuff :-) I don't think it would be the >> boards, though: they're so primitive that I don't think there would be >> anything to change. > > this is probably correct, since we don't use the Teles board in > auto mode and do all the LAPD in software. The question is, do the > TelCos use Q.931 ? That's what our lap driver uses. Or is it Q.921 ? My understanding is that Q.921 is layer 2, and Q.931 is layer 3 of DSS1. I suspect that Q.921 is common to other signalling implementations as well--can anybody shed light on this? >> My bet is that the CAPI would be different. That >> could pose severe problems for the FreeBSD implementation, at least >> until we find out what the differences are. > > CAPI ? FBSD don't use no steenkin' CAPI ! (the bandits in "The > Treasure of the Sierra Madre" never said "steenkin'", BTW) :-) > We program the boards ourselves and provide a simple tty interface > for AT type commands. Of course it doesn't. But Teles does. My claim was that, when Teles told Jordan that the boards were different in the US, they were really referring to a modified CAPI which could handle, for example, the 56 kb/s castrated ISDN used in some areas. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 00:06:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA12812 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12772 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA06060 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:05:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199603200805.JAA06060@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 9:00:35 MET From: Greg Lehey In-Reply-To: <199603192305.SAA04017@etinc.com>; from "dennis" at Mar 19, 96 6:05 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>> From the keyboard of Greg Lehey: >> >>>> my ISP only offers ISDN over PPP. He says, if you use HDLC, then we have >>>> to assign you a permanent IP address. >> >> I wanted a class-C network and my ISP is happy that i use HDLC because it >> is the fastest way and is setup and operated without _any_ problems (in >> contrast to the Windows weenies using the most hip PPP implementation of >> the day). > > Lets be careful with our terminology.....Sync PPP is run over HDLC. OK, very careful: "can be run". And usually is, I agree. But PPP adds an extra layer of protocol which is just overhead. Transparent IP over HDLC uses HDLC as the link layer. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 00:07:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA12867 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:07:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12860 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA04385; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:06:54 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, isdn@muc.ditec.de Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:05:51 MST." <199603192005.NAA24618@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:06:54 -0800 Message-ID: <4383.827309214@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > 1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B > > > channel, so you can use async instead". Well, yes, assuming your > > > machine isn't doing anything else. To run 2 B channels flat out, > > > you need a 230 kb/s line, which with standard el cheapo 16550As > > > > You, uh, would? 64+64 = 128Kb/s using my own calculator! :-) > > Hee hee. Think "allowable baud rates for serial ports". 8-). Oh, I know the limitations of that, I was just trying to figure out how Greg was managing to take 64+64 and get "230K" from it. I'm well aware that the next step from a 115.2K UART is 230.4Kbaud since they generally just double the previous value, but Greg's comments seemed to indicate that he was also ADDING the overhead rather than subtracting it and coming up with a wholly new bandwidth category for ISDN, which would be a neat trick and worth some money were it that easy.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 00:09:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA13048 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA13042 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0tzIxc-0003vvC; Wed, 20 Mar 96 00:09 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA11364; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:55:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Greg Lehey , hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:29:43 PST." <3349.827292583@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:55:30 +0000 Message-ID: <11362.827304930@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Watch my lips. A B channel gives you 64,000 bits per second. When you > > add one start bit and one stop bit for every 8 bits, you end up with > > 80,000 bits. Bind two such channels together and you have 160,000 > > Your lips don't make any sense.. :-) You SUBTRACT the start bit and > stop bit, you don't ADD it dude! Actually, you can subtract them in some cases. My Zyxel 2864I ISDN-gadgets can speak async HDLC on the serial port and sync hdlc on the ISDN. I've tried it out and can confirm that "64000 < one B-chan < 80000". My figures indicated 75000 bits/sec for FTP. The principle is not entirely unlike the various UUCP/XMODEM/KERMIT spoofing done by other brands of modems. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 00:52:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA14764 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA14722 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA02068; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:50:51 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA07961; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:50:51 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA07178; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:38:06 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603200838.JAA07178@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:38:05 +0100 (MET) Cc: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603200107.RAA16306@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 19, 96 05:07:19 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Dave Hayes wrote: > > (I'm really pissed, so I probably shouldn't be sending this. I'll > try not to flame, no promises though.) Well, and i hope i won't become too sarcastic about this. :) > *Why* the hell is adding a 2nd disk to a currently running OS Guru > level lore? Since some not so far distant day in the past, almost everything here required an OS Guru. If things became easier in many fields by now, this is the result of the hard work of many people, who do this (mostly) in their spare-time, and without receiving money for it. They usually do what they'd like to see done there (and hey!, what do you in your spare-time?), so this has the effect that some things are being done almost instantly, while there are other things about nobody of the hackers seems to be interested in. msdosfs and installdisk seem to belong to the latter, to name just two. > It should be a turnkey operation like it is on other UNIX. Yes. It should. > Searching the archives and the docs produces *no* useful information, > other than the fact that this is a FAQ and no one seems to answer it. Then you've got a damn bad Usenet archive to search. j@uriah 1009% fgrep -l disklabel /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/* /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14369 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14372 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14403 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14463 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14535 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14642 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14683 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14715 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14734 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14754 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14900 /var/spool/news/comp/unix/bsd/freebsd/misc/14959 This makes 12 articles mentioning the word "disklabel" (just picked this one), for a repository with 10 days expiration time. This is more than one article per day on average. > Yet the sysinstall program knows how to do it. Is that magic code > repackagable somewhere as "installdisk" or something? Not really. The code of sysinstall is rather tightly hacked together, and even the authors don't seem to be very proud about the internals (though the outfit is *excellent*, and everybody appreciates the big effort sysinstall has been compared to its predecessor). > So to summarize: WHY ISN'T THIS EASIER and WHAT CAN SOMEONE DO > TO MAKE IT EASIER. Since you haven't written the "installdisk" utility. Neither do i, but at least, i've already started writing one. The actual result is not very visible by now, except that there's a man page for libdisk(3) now. My day does only have 36 hours like that of anybody else here. Many of them have to be spent in paywork. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 01:05:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA15365 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA15360 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA11447 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:04:48 +0100 Message-Id: <199603200904.KAA11447@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: Aust. ISDN, was Re: Win32 (was:Re: Go SCSI! Big improvement...) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 10:02:09 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) In-Reply-To: <199603191954.MAA24558@phaeton.artisoft.com>; from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 19, 96 12:54 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> > If you are talking cards, well, they can be shoved through the >> > approval process by an enterprising importer who wants to make >> > his money on the margins on imported hardware. >> >> You obviously haven't seen the international telco's ideas of >> approval. They differ completely from one country to another - for >> example, in England they destroy the equipment to see how much it >> takes to destroy it (overvoltage and such). In general, the cost of >> approval only makes it interesting for large markets, such as >> Germany. How many international comms products are available in >> Portugal or France, for example? > > Then I guess they don't get comms products. It's not quite that bad. First, they have their own, protected manufacturers. Secondly, the big manufacturers do go to the trouble. But it's certainly not the kind of pain that an "enterprising importer" would inflict upon himself. > And in 10 years, the rest of the countries will own their asses, at > least as far as their ability to compete in the international > marketplace is concerned. I would be inclined to predict that things will change in the next 3 or 4 years, in order to prevent exactly your prediction from coming true. > I predict the situation will continue as long as the intentionally > work to make their markets "uninteresting". > > Oh well, I can't personally do anything about that... True, true. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's an unfortunate fact of life. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 01:22:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA16301 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dima@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA16293 Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:22:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603200922.BAA16293@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: new sup server To: julian@ref.tfs.com (JULIAN Elischer) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:22:04 -0800 (PST) Cc: mmead@Glock.COM, dima@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603191758.JAA02581@ref.tfs.com> from "JULIAN Elischer" at Mar 19, 96 09:58:57 am From: dima@freebsd.org (Dima Ruban) X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk JULIAN Elischer writes: > > In fact what is the lag behing all the servers.. > can we find out the update schedules for them? > it helps US shedule OUR updates.. As I've said, sup5.freebsd.org (burka.rdy.com) updates 2 time a day. 12pm and 12am. Usually it takes around 40 minutes to update everything. > julian > > > > Dima Ruban writes: > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > New sup server for current/stable/cvs is operational and ready. > > > Please use it. (This server is on T3, so it should work > > > pretty fast). Questions and/or comments to dima@best.net. > > > Oops, almost forgot. This is sup5.freebsd.org > > > > > > Enjoy. > > > > How much lag behind freefall is it? > > > > > > -matt > > > > -- > > Matthew C. Mead > > > > mmead@Glock.COM > > http://www.Glock.COM/~mmead/ > > > > -- dima From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 01:28:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA17012 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16999 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA12877 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:27:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199603200927.KAA12877@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 10:25:13 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) In-Reply-To: <4243.827308109@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 19, 96 11:48 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Of course, it would be really nice if you waited Teles out so you >> could test the ISDN stuff in the US :) > >: -) I'm willing if they are! Why don't you just contact them and ask them what the difference is. If, as I suspect, it's just the CAPI, you can use the German versions just as easily, since, as Gary says, we don't use any steenkin' CAPI. Does your Telco supply DSS1? >> It's not a matter of the Teles cards not supporting it. They can handle >> 2 B-channels simultaneously w/o any problem. It's hacking it into >> the kernel. What do we use as the protocol ? MPP ? BACP (unbelievably >> ugly !) ? Home-made ? > > Everyone from Motorola to ADTRAN seems to go the "home made" route, so.. How come they can work together? Or is this an incorrect assumption on my part? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 01:42:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA17948 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA17940 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA05004; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:40:34 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GAS question In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:16:08 MST." <199603192216.PAA24885@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:40:33 -0800 Message-ID: <5002.827314833@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Uh, not to pick on Terry (specifically) or anything but I kind of hit the limit at this point in my inbox. Will you guys PLEASE, FOR GOD'S SAKE, SHUT UP ABOUT VC++ ALREADY! This is not a FreeBSD topic and if you insist on debating the merits of Windows development tools then I suggest that you do so privately or in -chat. I was not happy to see Justin unsubscribe to -hackers today but I cannot blame him in the least. The last few months have seen wholly irrelevant threads of insane length and the mail load represented by -hackers has grown beyond ALL reasonable bounds. I think more self control by all parties, and I include myself, is now called for. No more endless discussions about VC++ or ISDN or whether or not sync serial cards are works of the devil (they are, but then *every* PC peripheral fits that description so what?). I also think that Terry's self-control (should he decide to exercise it) would serve as a fitting example for the rest of us, given his special proclivity for following up to each and every post regardless of the topic. I'm sure that if we discussed animal husbandry or the appropriate brand of olive oil for wild sex parties, Terry could somehow manage to fan it into a 30 post thread, but that wouldn't further the cause of this list in any way! Enough, finito, time-out! I'd like to call for a moment of collective self-control in this mailing list before everyone in core jumps ship. And no, there's no need to follow-up to this message unless you're trying to qualify for the Olympic bozo team or something. If you agree with me, make the "amen!" a silent one in support of these sentiments. If you don't agree with me, send me private email! Thanks! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 01:56:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA19591 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from easy.stallion.com (easy.stallion.com [204.31.184.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19581 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from cluster.stallion.oz.au by easy.stallion.com id aa08928; 20 Mar 96 1:57 PST Subject: new drivers for Stallion multiport serial boards To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:56:16 +1000 (est) From: Greg Ungerer Cc: Greg Ungerer X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9603201956.aa26789@cluster.stallion.oz.au> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hiya FreeBSD'ers, I have just made available a new driver for FreeBSD that supports most of Stallion Technologies range of intelligent multiport serial boards. The new driver specifically supports EasyConnection 8/64, ONboard, Brumby and the original Stallion boards. The package also contains the driver for the EasyIO and EasyConnection 8/32 boards that I released a few months ago. If interrested you can pick it up from Stallions ftp site, at ftp.stallion.com:/unsupported/freebsd/stalbsd-0.0.5.tar.gz Also new in this release is a simple serial stats display program (it only works with these drivers). It should come in very handy for diagnosing serial port problems... Seeya Gerg --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Ungerer EMAIL: gerg@stallion.com Stallion Technologies Pty Ltd PHONE: +61 7 3270 4271 33 Woodstock Rd, Toowong, QLD 4066, Australia FAX: +61 7 3270 4245 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 02:01:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA20135 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20102 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA14668 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:00:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199603201000.LAA14668@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 10:58:10 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) In-Reply-To: <11362.827304930@critter.tfs.com>; from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Mar 20, 96 6:55 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Watch my lips. A B channel gives you 64,000 bits per second. When you >>> add one start bit and one stop bit for every 8 bits, you end up with >>> 80,000 bits. Bind two such channels together and you have 160,000 >> >> Your lips don't make any sense.. :-) You SUBTRACT the start bit and >> stop bit, you don't ADD it dude! > > Actually, you can subtract them in some cases. I don't understand why people have so much difficulty understanding this point. Let's try a picture: DTE "modem" "modem" DTE ------ ------ ----- ------ | | async | | ISDN | | async | | | |--------->| |--------->| |--------->| | | | 10 bits | | 8 bits | | 10 bits | | ------ 80 kb/s ------ 64 kb/s ----- 80 kb/s ------ The B channels run at a speed of 64000 bits/second. Nothing changes that. The 2 bits overhead on the async line are purely timing information generated and swallowed by the UART. From left to right, units of 10 bits are processed by the UART in the first "modem", producing 8 bits of output. These are transmitted with no further encoding (except the TDM implicit in ISDN BRI) to the other "modem", which puts them into a UART, which then surrounds them with a start and a stop bit and puts them out on the async line. Admittedly, this view is simplistic to a degree: without some kind of protocol around the data, you can't tell what's data and what's empty noise. Obviously, though, the lower the overhead, the better. Typically, HDLC is used. > My Zyxel 2864I ISDN-gadgets can speak async HDLC on the serial port and > sync hdlc on the ISDN. > > I've tried it out and can confirm that "64000 < one B-chan < 80000". > My figures indicated 75000 bits/sec for FTP. I assume your 75 kb/s are on the async lines. > The principle is not entirely unlike the various UUCP/XMODEM/KERMIT spoofing > done by other brands of modems. I don't understand this statement. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 02:03:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA20373 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20359 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA05282; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:03:27 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Hayes cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:07:19 PST." <199603200107.RAA16306@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:03:27 -0800 Message-ID: <5280.827316207@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (I'm really pissed, so I probably shouldn't be sending this. I'll > try not to flame, no promises though.) > > *Why* the hell is adding a 2nd disk to a currently running OS Guru > level lore? Because few people work with us to make it turnkey. > It should be a turnkey operation like it is on other UNIX. I await your code. > Searching the archives and the docs produces *no* useful information, > other than the fact that this is a FAQ and no one seems to answer it. I await your text. > So to summarize: WHY ISN'T THIS EASIER and WHAT CAN SOMEONE DO > TO MAKE IT EASIER. You can help me to rewrite sysinstall (look at the sources first though, I don't want to have to walk you through it step by step) so that it's more usable as a stand-alone tool. You can help to rewrite the documentation so that it presents this information in a clearer fashion. In other words, things get better around here because PEOPLE MAKE THEM BETTER. That's what a volunteer group like this is all about, and if you think that there's some magic wellspring of effort that can be tapped every time someone sends us a flame like this then you're very much mistaken. Most of our most useful features came out of someone like yourself being frustrated by something AND DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. We know things are broken, and the lack of good disk-frobbing tools has been a topic of discussion for only, oh, about 2 years now. Unfortunately, most people feel that complaining about it is enough, not actually doing anything substantive to improve it for the end-user. I can only hope that there's a special help desk in hell for such people where they're forced to answer Win95 questions from sewing machine operators for all eternity. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 02:11:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA21235 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:11:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from isbalham (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA21225 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id KAA08004; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:07:43 GMT Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:06:54 GMT X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:10:02 +0000 To: "Lenzi, Sergio" From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop) Subject: Re: Quality of BSD software Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:26 am 19/3/96, Lenzi, Sergio wrote: >Hello all. > >In an answer from a request for information about Win/U here is what >they sad: > >> >> Thank you for your interest in Wind/U, which enables you to take >> your Windows applications to multiple Unix and VMS platforms >> with only a single source required. >> >> We do not support Linux or FreeBSD, primarily due to the > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> quality of the compilers that work with these operating systems. >[...] Probably their code is a mess and when they try to build it under gcc they get heaps of errors/warnings which they can't be bothered to fix. Sad is about right. -- Bob Bishop (01734) 774017 international code +44 1734 rb@gid.co.uk fax (01734) 894254 between 0800 and 1800 UK From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 02:38:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA23023 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA23013 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id CAA25463; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:38:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199603201038.CAA25463@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:38:18 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> (I'm really pissed, so I probably shouldn't be sending this. I'll >> try not to flame, no promises though.) >> *Why* the hell is adding a 2nd disk to a currently running OS Guru >> level lore? >Because few people work with us to make it turnkey. Why is that? >> It should be a turnkey operation like it is on other UNIX. >I await your code. >> Searching the archives and the docs produces *no* useful information, >> other than the fact that this is a FAQ and no one seems to answer it. >I await your text. I await it too. Gee, if I understood it well enough to automate it, I'd have done so, my server would be in it's previous state, and there would have been no flame. But the tools don't work. Fdisk doesn't work reliably. Without fdisk, disklabel seems worthless. Unfortunately, there's a LOT to learn about this particular invocation of BSD and why it does what it does. I'd much rather spend the time seeing what it can do, and getting other companies interested in using it. If, however, they see experienced administrators struggle with adding a 2nd disk (something that DOS can do in seconds, we all *like* UNIX on this list right?), it doesn't look so good does it? I guess I'm questioning priorities in an absence of any knowledge about why. Losing an entire server because of a bug in sysinstall tends to get some people to flame first, and ask questions later. >In other words, things get better around here because PEOPLE MAKE THEM >BETTER. That's what a volunteer group like this is all about, and if >you think that there's some magic wellspring of effort that can be >tapped every time someone sends us a flame like this then you're very >much mistaken. Actually, I had no such delusions. I just sort of think adding a 2nd disk should be commonsensically easy. >Most of our most useful features came out of someone >like yourself being frustrated by something AND DOING SOMETHING ABOUT >IT. I did. I just rebuilt my server, and acquired more experience with sysinstall. That's something, isn't it? >end-user. I can only hope that there's a special help desk in hell >for such people where they're forced to answer Win95 questions from >sewing machine operators for all eternity. There's going to be a special desk on this planet where we'll -all- have to be using someone else's idea of good interfaces if these kinds of things keep cropping up. ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< Nasrudin was asked "What effect did the banana diet have on your wife?" "Well," came the reply, "she isn't any thinner, but you should see her climb trees!" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 02:43:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA23487 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:43:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA23482 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:43:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA05692; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:43:15 -0800 (PST) To: Jaye Mathisen cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: latest -SNAP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:51:30 PST." Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:43:15 -0800 Message-ID: <5690.827318595@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Neither 2.2 snaps will let me install a Pacific TimeZone. The screen > flashes very quickly, and it no workee. I'll see if tzsetup is broken.. > The vx0 device could probably be added to the generic kernel. Done. > Running /stand/sysinstall to install packages fails, it says it can't > find the "INDEX" file, using ftp.freebsd.org I'll check into this as soon as I get my test box put back together! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 02:43:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA23521 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA23514 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA05703; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:43:30 -0800 (PST) To: Jaye Mathisen cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More sysinstall troubles from 3/3 snap In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Mar 1996 07:03:00 PST." Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:43:30 -0800 Message-ID: <5701.827318610@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > /stand/sysinstall, work your way down to selecting XFree86, cancel your > way out, it fails for some reason that goes faster than I can read on the > screen, then I get a kazillion "Malloc warning: free(): already free > {chunk,page}", then finally a listAbort trap... Bleah. I'll try this, thanks. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 03:45:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA26084 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA26078 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA28094; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:26:30 +0100 Message-Id: <199603201126.MAA28094@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: new drivers for Stallion multiport serial boards To: gerg@stallion.oz.au (Greg Ungerer) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:26:29 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, gerg@stallion.oz.au In-Reply-To: <9603201956.aa26789@cluster.stallion.oz.au> from "Greg Ungerer" at Mar 20, 96 07:56:16 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Greg Ungerer who wrote: > > > Hiya FreeBSD'ers, > > I have just made available a new driver for FreeBSD that supports most of > Stallion Technologies range of intelligent multiport serial boards. The > new driver specifically supports EasyConnection 8/64, ONboard, Brumby and > the original Stallion boards. The package also contains the driver for the > EasyIO and EasyConnection 8/32 boards that I released a few months ago. > > If interrested you can pick it up from Stallions ftp site, at GREAT !! now I can dust off my two old lovely ONboard 8/16 ports cards.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 04:01:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA27265 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 04:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from kavemachine.magna.com.au (kavemachine.magna.com.au [203.4.215.219]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA27254 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 04:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kaveman@localhost) by kavemachine.magna.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA01224; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:58:31 +1000 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:58:30 +1000 (EST) From: Julian Jenkins To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , lehey.pad@sni.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-Reply-To: <4383.827309214@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > 1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B > > > > channel, so you can use async instead". Well, yes, assuming your > > > > machine isn't doing anything else. To run 2 B channels flat out, > > > > you need a 230 kb/s line, which with standard el cheapo 16550As > > > > > > You, uh, would? 64+64 = 128Kb/s using my own calculator! :-) > > > > Hee hee. Think "allowable baud rates for serial ports". 8-). > > Oh, I know the limitations of that, I was just trying to figure out > how Greg was managing to take 64+64 and get "230K" from it. I'm well > aware that the next step from a 115.2K UART is 230.4Kbaud since they > generally just double the previous value, but Greg's comments seemed > to indicate that he was also ADDING the overhead rather than > subtracting it and coming up with a wholly new bandwidth category for > ISDN, which would be a neat trick and worth some money were it that > easy.. :-) The key point is that the ISDN line is syncronous, so a 64kb/s line can carry 64kb/s of data, while the async line from a 16550 or whatever need extra start/stop bits. Assuming we can get full capacity from the serial line and we hav only one of each start and stop bits, this means that each byte transmitted along the async line consists of 10 bits (8 bits data, 1 start, 1 stop) so the capacity of the async line that can carry the same amount of data as a 64kb/s ISDN line is 64/8*10 = 80kb/s. Kaveman kaveman@magna.com.au From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 04:46:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA00420 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 04:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA00413 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 04:46:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA14081; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 04:45:37 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Smith cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:11:18 +1030." <199603200641.RAA05914@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 04:45:37 -0800 Message-ID: <14079.827325937@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ah, sorry Jordan. He's quite correct. > > 64kb/sec of _data_ requires 80kb/sec on an async line, because you have > to _add_ start and stop bits to _make_ it async. Sigh. Maybe I'm just dense, but I never saw the part of this conversation where we were talking about CONVERTING from sync to async, I assumed that you'd either be talking sync-sync on both sides or doing async-async and skipping the overhead because you'd never _get_ 64Kbps of syncronous data from the other end to pad out with start and stop bits. Yes, you and Greg are perfectly correct then and I'm arguing a totally different and erroneous argument. I'll shut up now and spare -hackers any more input on ISDN from this end.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 05:07:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA01563 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA01553 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA14177; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:03:36 -0800 (PST) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:38:05 +0100." <199603200838.JAA07178@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:03:36 -0800 Message-ID: <14175.827327016@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Not really. The code of sysinstall is rather tightly hacked together, > and even the authors don't seem to be very proud about the internals That's NOT TRUE, Joerg! The authors are completely disgusted with the internals.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 05:10:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA01714 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA01709 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA14219; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:09:30 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:25:13 +0700." <199603200927.KAA12870@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:09:30 -0800 Message-ID: <14217.827327370@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Of course, it would be really nice if you waited Teles out so you > >> could test the ISDN stuff in the US :) > > > >: -) I'm willing if they are! > > Why don't you just contact them and ask them what the difference is. > If, as I suspect, it's just the CAPI, you can use the German versions > just as easily, since, as Gary says, we don't use any steenkin' CAPI. I did, and they said it was an electrical incompatibility with the NT1. Whatever that means! > Does your Telco supply DSS1? Erm.. I'm afraid I don't know what that means. I only know that I have a Northern Telcom DMS series switch and the TA appears to "log in" with it successfully. I didn't set up anything specifically. > > Everyone from Motorola to ADTRAN seems to go the "home made" route, so.. > > How come they can work together? Or is this an incorrect assumption > on my part? I've always been told that Motorola and ADTRAN TAs will talk to one another but will _not_ bond the channels, at least according to my friend at Cisco. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 05:17:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA02016 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA02008 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA28458 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:16:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199603201316.OAA28458@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 14:14:03 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), isdn@muc.ditec.de (Distribution List; FreeBSD ISDN) In-Reply-To: <14217.827327370@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 20, 96 5:09 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>> Of course, it would be really nice if you waited Teles out so you >>>> could test the ISDN stuff in the US :) >>> >>>: -) I'm willing if they are! >> >> Why don't you just contact them and ask them what the difference is. >> If, as I suspect, it's just the CAPI, you can use the German versions >> just as easily, since, as Gary says, we don't use any steenkin' CAPI. > > I did, and they said it was an electrical incompatibility with the > NT1. Whatever that means! Could be as simple as different impedances. And yes, that could be a show-stopper. Or it could be connections. Do you have a separate NT1? What connectors does it have? What voltage comes out of it? Over here, they have RJ45 connectors, and I'd have to measure the voltage. >> Does your Telco supply DSS1? > > Erm.. I'm afraid I don't know what that means. I only know that I > have a Northern Telcom DMS series switch and the TA appears to "log > in" with it successfully. I didn't set up anything specifically. DSS1 is the ITU-T Digital Switching Standard for ISDN. As I mentioned in another message, but I'm still not confident enough to claim categorically, this corresponds to Q.921/Q.931. It definitely includes clear 64 kb/s B channels. >>> Everyone from Motorola to ADTRAN seems to go the "home made" route, so.. >> >> How come they can work together? Or is this an incorrect assumption >> on my part? > > I've always been told that Motorola and ADTRAN TAs will talk to one > another but will _not_ bond the channels, at least according to my > friend at Cisco. Well, that's news. I think from the point of the FreeBSD project we should at least aim to be compatible with German CAPI channel bonding (if that in itself is standardized). If anybody either side of the pond can give any input on channel bonding, I'd be grateful, and I'm sure Gary will be too. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 05:29:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA02289 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:29:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from spooky.rwwa.com (rwwa.com [198.115.177.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA02284 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.rwwa.com (localhost.rwwa.com [127.0.0.1]) by spooky.rwwa.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA13281 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:29:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199603201329.IAA13281@spooky.rwwa.com> X-Authentication-Warning: spooky.rwwa.com: Host localhost.rwwa.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #986 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:40:00 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:29:25 -0500 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Of course, getting the ISP to let you bring dry wire and your modems > into their facility is another matter. You probably will have as much > luck getting them to let you use one of those 20mile/10Mbit spread spectrum > transmitters that make the connections over the air. That is the real problem. Their bread and butter is 9600 baud internal fax-modem Pee Cee users, and they seem to have very little interest in affordable bandwidth of the kind I want to have. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 592 8935, Net: witr@rwwa.COM From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 05:38:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA02587 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA02582 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA14330; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:38:14 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Hayes cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:38:18 PST." <199603201038.CAA25463@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 05:38:14 -0800 Message-ID: <14328.827329094@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Because few people work with us to make it turnkey. > > Why is that? No idea. It's a boring and thankless task, perhaps? Like Joerg said, volunteers have this nasty habit of doing things because they WANT to and you can't force them to do differently unless you have some $$$ to throw their way. If you're keen to throw $$$ my way so that I can actually afford to do this someday, the full details on donations are given in http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/submitters.html > I await it too. Gee, if I understood it well enough to automate it, > I'd have done so, my server would be in it's previous state, and there > would have been no flame. But the tools don't work. Fdisk doesn't > work reliably. Without fdisk, disklabel seems worthless. I sincerely suggest commercial software in your case then. Clearly, you just don't "get it" about this free stuff and I can only point you at an organization like BSDI who is at least paid to try and fix your complaints in a timely fashion. Again, as I said quite directly in my first reply to you - the problems with fdisk and disklabel's interfaces are KNOWN. What is not known is who will fix them. You? Clearly not. Someone else? This increasingly ficticious someone else shows every sign of not coming forward, and no real surprise there since "someone else" gets assigned a lot of the shitty work around here! :-) > Unfortunately, there's a LOT to learn about this particular invocation > of BSD and why it does what it does. I'd much rather spend the time > seeing what it can do, and getting other companies interested in using > it. And I'd be more than happy to see you engage in such promotion. I'm well aware of the concept of "each to his or her own particular area of strength." However, you will have to learn to be a lot more patient with the areas of weakness if you want to hang out here and use this product without bringing angry denounciations down upon your head. More importantly, there is a style and a technique for coaxing volunteers into doing things which you clearly have to learn if you want to even raise certain topics with any hope of a positive result. Venting your spleen about some bug which mangled your system, killed your dog and drove your wife into the arms of the cable repairman may make you feel better for a time, but NO positive result will ensue and you will have done *nothing* to encourage a resolution of the problem - quite the opposite, most likely. It's a far more positive approach to ask instead how you might help to fix the problem, even if it's only to act as a focal point for ideas, or presenting your own ideas as to how you would like such a utility to look. This is not to say that certain people here don't occasionally fulminate at some problem and that people don't also sometimes jump sheepishly to fix it, but the equation there is slightly more complex. It's like money in the bank, you see. If you do something good for the project over a period of time, this is like making deposits towards the good will of its members. People who have moved mountains in the service of it can get away with quite a bit of fulmination because they've earned the respect of their peers and those peers want to fix whatever problem is aggrevating the other contributor so that they in turn can benefit from further contributions from him or her. You have no "money" in the bank yet and hence have no credit for such attacks of angst. This doesn't mean that you can't state your case, you most certainly can, simply that you have no right to state it forcefully since that will simply get you ignored as a flaming expletive who does not appreciate all the good work that the project HAS done. > If, however, they see experienced administrators struggle with adding > a 2nd disk (something that DOS can do in seconds, we all *like* UNIX > on this list right?), it doesn't look so good does it? No, naturally not. I'd love to see this fixed. I'd love to see someone with more time than me fix it. Since such people are in short supply, I *am* working towards a solution but it's going to take some time to get it right. > I guess I'm questioning priorities in an absence of any knowledge > about why. Losing an entire server because of a bug in sysinstall > tends to get some people to flame first, and ask questions later. If those people have little self-control, yes. Fortunately, most of our users are actually fairly intelligent about the "lack of warranty" implied by running free software and they're also more in control of their emotions. > I did. I just rebuilt my server, and acquired more experience with > sysinstall. That's something, isn't it? For you, yes. For those who follow in your footsteps, no. In point of fact, that's just about what everyone else who's encountered this bug has done, which shows reasonable attention to self-interest but very little to the community interest. The fallacy of this approach should be fairly obvious to you, considering that you just tripped over the same rock that none of the other sufferers ever bothered to move out of the way. > There's going to be a special desk on this planet where we'll -all- have > to be using someone else's idea of good interfaces if these kinds of For the last time, this is NOT our idea of a good interface! This is our idea of the interface we're stuck with until somebody has the time to re-write it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 06:24:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA04698 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA04693 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:24:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from section05 (morse.sarnoff.com [130.33.10.158]) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16912 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:23:50 -0500 Received: by section05 (5.x/SECTION05-Client) id AA18897; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:21:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:21:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: new software available: vx, vector execute program for many machines Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk VX. VX stands for Vector eXecute. VX can start processes up on lots of remote machines very quickly. We have measured times on a cluster of 48 machines of 320 milliseconds to run /bin/date (wall-clock); in a 100+ machine environment we could run /bin/date in 10 seconds, wall-clock time. In the 100+ machine environment the dominant overhead was YP lookup; using the built-in name to address mapping the time would be shorter. This code includes a library to quickly manage hosts lists, but so far (sadly) I only have the man page for VX. History: original program (mrex, for Multi REX) based on Vector Kernel RPC and slightly more secure rexd built in late 1992; mrex was changed and renamed hrex by Gene Kim in may 1993. VX is a TCP-based version which communicates to standard exec daemons. You have to supply a user name and password when you run programs, e.g.: time vx p0,p1,p5 /bin/date Name (rminnich): Password (rminnich): Wed Mar 20 09:13:22 EST 1996 Wed Mar 20 09:19:00 EST 1996 Wed Mar 20 09:17:51 EST 1996 0.019u 0.029s 0:02.35 1.2% 104+345k 0+0io 0pf+0w Note that most of the runtime was to let me type my password ... You can use regular expressions to specify machines. The command below says to use the r.e. 'any host with p as the first letter': tres 27% time vx -lH \^p /bin/date Name (rminnich): Password (rminnich): p0 : Wed Mar 20 09:15:43 EST 1996 p1 : Wed Mar 20 09:21:21 EST 1996 p9 : Wed Mar 20 14:19:43 EST 1996 p5 : Wed Mar 20 09:20:12 EST 1996 p13: Wed Mar 20 14:24:31 EST 1996 p11: Wed Mar 20 14:16:17 EST 1996 p6 : Wed Mar 20 09:20:57 EST 1996 p8 : Wed Mar 20 14:12:12 EST 1996 p10: Wed Mar 20 14:16:31 EST 1996 p14: Wed Mar 20 14:15:56 EST 1996 p2 : Wed Mar 20 09:16:48 EST 1996 p15: Wed Mar 20 14:18:14 EST 1996 p4 : Wed Mar 20 09:20:24 EST 1996 p12: Wed Mar 20 14:16:17 EST 1996 p7 : Wed Mar 20 09:23:54 EST 1996 p3 : Wed Mar 20 09:15:50 EST 1996 0.033u 0.033s 0:02.94 2.0% 55+210k 0+0io 0pf+0w note some things: 1) i used the -l switch so the machine names would be printed. 2) you can use lists of re's as well as a list of hosts and a list of re's. 3) the time for 16 machines was almost the same as the time for 3. In fact, this is pretty much the time we've seen for 48 machines. It's also much faster than anything else we've tried for large numbers of machines. For 16 machines or fewer you can put together files full of rsh commands such as: rsh -n p0 /bin/date & and it is not much slower, but it's slower. It's also much less flexible. Anyway, source, man page for vx, and source to the hostlists library is included. Bugs to me, of course. I've been using this stuff in one form or another to support cluster computing for a few years. In fact, the hostslists stuff was used in a compiler runtime. I am pretty sure it is pretty solid. You'll find it at the URL below. Note it is an FTP, NOT HTTP, URL. ron Ron Minnich |" Microsoft Word: It does so little and it does rminnich@sarnoff.com | it so slowly" -- Maya Gokhale (609)-734-3120 | ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 06:45:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA05906 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from border.com (janus.border.com [199.71.190.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA05901 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by janus.border.com id <18436-1>; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:45:40 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:45:20 -0500 From: Jerry Kendall To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk In-Reply-To: <199603200107.RAA16306@kachina.jetcafe.org> Message-Id: <96Mar20.094540est.18436-1@janus.border.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A few weeks ago, actually, a few months ago, I started to create a utility that I named 'diskmaint' that currently will 'fdisk' a hard disk. I am about 50% done the part that will 'disklabel'. what remains is the ability to 'newfs' the partitions. I have been doing it undex 'X' using the xforms library. A lot of people bitched about the 'xforms' aspect so I slowed down on the rush. This has the added affect of pissing some people off. BUT, as a few others have said in reply to this message, it IS a 'develop the toys as needed' environment. I will finish it. Perhaps I MAY be inclined to create a 'text' mode version for those snotty peoply that sent me 'flames'. But for now I will finish the xforms version. In the mean time I am willing to chat directly with you to help you get past this problem... Is this satisfactory ??? On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Dave Hayes wrote: > > (I'm really pissed, so I probably shouldn't be sending this. I'll > try not to flame, no promises though.) > > *Why* the hell is adding a 2nd disk to a currently running OS Guru > level lore? > > It should be a turnkey operation like it is on other UNIX. > > Searching the archives and the docs produces *no* useful information, > other than the fact that this is a FAQ and no one seems to answer it. > > Yet the sysinstall program knows how to do it. Is that magic code > repackagable somewhere as "installdisk" or something? > > Oh, and using the current sysinstall program only succeeded in > removing all the device nodes on my current partition. > > So to summarize: WHY ISN'T THIS EASIER and WHAT CAN SOMEONE DO > TO MAKE IT EASIER. > > Feh. > ------ > >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< > > What seems to be absurdity and is not, > is better than the ignorance of the man who thinks it is absurd. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any comments or opinions in this message are my own and may or may not reflect the comments or opinions of my present or previous employers. Jerry Kendall Border Network Technologies Inc. System Software Engineer Tel +1-416-368-7157 ext 303 jerry@border.com Fax +1-416-368-7178 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 07:02:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA06934 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dw3f.ess.harris.com (dw3f.ess.harris.com [130.41.9.242]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA06925 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:02:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from suw2k.hisd.harris.com (borg [158.147.23.50]) by dw3f.ess.harris.com (8.6.9/mdb(941103)) with SMTP id KAA06903 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:00:14 -0500 Received: by suw2k.hisd.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10531; Wed, 20 Mar 96 09:58:45 EST Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 09:58:45 EST From: jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com (James Leppek) Message-Id: <9603201458.AA10531@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: mailling list content Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmmmm, this may not go over well with some but as a long time lurker and user it seems that freebsd-hackers has turned into ,dare I say it, a newsgroup :-( There seems to be more and more general topic chit chats and technology (not freebsd) discussions. Is it only my perception???? Is this inevitable with an increase in popularity of freebsd ( the internet was so nice and quite in the early 80's :-) ) I am concerned that we may begin to lose freebsd contributors on the list. Its just an observation..... Jim (struggling into asbestos underwear) Leppek From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 07:28:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA08721 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA08714 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.6.12/BSD4.4) id CAA29139; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:27:46 +1100 From: michael butler Message-Id: <199603201527.CAA29139@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: PPP bonding .. To: lehey.pad@sni.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:27:45 +1100 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603201316.OAA28458@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 20, 96 02:14:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > If anybody either side of the pond can give any input on channel bonding, > I'd be grateful, and I'm sure Gary will be too. Speaking of bonding .. what's needed to allow two modem-based PPP interfaces link to the same destination ? As far as I can tell .. i) you need one "virtual interface" at the route socket level with path splitting underneath it. ii) the "splitter" needs to have an intimate knowledge of the transmit queue lengths of each of the paths in order to choose the one with the least latency. iii) Possibly, with assymetric or paths of different speed, some weighting needs to be applied in addition to simple length assessment. What else needs to be addressed ? Can this be (realistically) done by hacking on ijppp or is it a kernel-only job ? Linux seems to have this capability .. do we want (need ?) to be compatible with them ? michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 07:34:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA09066 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSL.ORST.EDU (root@FSL.ORST.EDU [128.193.112.105]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09046 Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from picea.FSL.ORST.EDU (hernanw@picea.FSL.ORST.EDU [128.193.112.3]) by FSL.ORST.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA01211; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:34:27 -0800 Received: (from hernanw@localhost) by picea.FSL.ORST.EDU (8.7/8.6.9) id HAA01787; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:34:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:34:25 -0800 (PST) From: Wayne Hernandez To: JULIAN Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new sup server In-Reply-To: <199603191758.JAA02581@ref.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, JULIAN Elischer wrote: > In fact what is the lag behing all the servers.. > can we find out the update schedules for them? > it helps US shedule OUR updates.. > > julian For sup3.freebsd.org, I'm updating at 2 a.m. and 2 p.m. pst/pdt. Wayne From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 08:38:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA13600 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA13571 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA29512; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:35:13 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603201635.KAA29512@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) To: kaveman@magna.com.au (Julian Jenkins) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:35:13 -0600 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, lehey.pad@sni.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de In-Reply-To: from "Julian Jenkins" at Mar 20, 96 09:58:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Oh, I know the limitations of that, I was just trying to figure out > > how Greg was managing to take 64+64 and get "230K" from it. I'm well > > aware that the next step from a 115.2K UART is 230.4Kbaud since they > > generally just double the previous value, but Greg's comments seemed > > to indicate that he was also ADDING the overhead rather than > > subtracting it and coming up with a wholly new bandwidth category for > > ISDN, which would be a neat trick and worth some money were it that > > easy.. :-) > > The key point is that the ISDN line is syncronous, so a 64kb/s line can > carry 64kb/s of data, while the async line from a 16550 or whatever need > extra start/stop bits. Assuming we can get full capacity from the serial > line and we hav only one of each start and stop bits, this means that > each byte transmitted along the async line consists of 10 bits (8 bits > data, 1 start, 1 stop) so the capacity of the async line that can carry > the same amount of data as a 64kb/s ISDN line is 64/8*10 = 80kb/s. Something I haven't-tried-but-would-be-interesting: Running a single B channel at 115200 and seeing what V.120's throughput is (i.e. whether or not it is passing the data efficiently or inefficiently). If it is running just the data bits across the link, one would expect to see 64000 / 8 = 8000cps. If it isn't, then one would expect 6400cps. If the former is true, then it's just a matter of convincing ISDN TA mfrs that there is a market for terminal adapters running at 230.4Kbps with "bonded" B channels, for 16000cps. :-) Of course, I still think TA's should do compression too... I can just see the need for 921.6Kbps serial ports... ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 08:51:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA14625 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14618 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA05552; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:53:41 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:53:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199603201653.LAA05552@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Tony Kimball From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: ADSL Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > And how many "dial-up" users will be willing to pay for 1-8Mbs of backbone > bandwidth? It seems unlikly that many ISPs will have the backbone > bandwidth to allow all of their customers to enjoy these speeds at ISDN > like prices. ISPs will need a roomful of Cisco 7000s, which should make > the price just about unreachable for almost anyone. > >99.9% of that bandwidth is going to go to VOD. Me, I just want to >push the bottleneck out of my house into the ISP premises, then I'm happy. >If the ISP is inadequate to my needs, I'll shop for another ISP. Shop til you drop! we just added features that let an ISP FILTER OUT video traffic, because you can't let a someone paying $22. a month run CUSEEME on a 28.8 line for 6 hours. > > You've been reading Network World again, haven't you? > >Never touch the stuff. Allergic to paper. > > BTW: ADSL is largely monodirectional (like 240kbs in one direction and 1.?? > meg downstream). In any event, you'd better crank up the crystals on those > 16550's boys.....~~~~~.whoooosh...... > >SDSL is symmetric. If you feel the need for 4Mb uploads you can >either wait for SDSL to be competetive or run dual ADSL. >In most of USWest country, it's still cheaper than ISDN, although >doubling the hardware and lease costs does push the payback out >from a few months to a couple of years. Of course, thats not what you said, but thats another story. The issue is not the cost of the wire, but the cost of the service. With T1 service priced at $1000. a month, I don't think that the average Joe is going to dump his dial-up connection for it even if the modem and the line are free. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 08:54:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA14835 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:54:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA14813 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id SAA15364; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:04:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603200204.SAA15364@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:04:22 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603200107.RAA16306@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 19, 96 05:07:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk the best way that I saw was: cd /stand ./sysinstall [C]ustom [P]artition [A]ll [Q]uit (answer yes to other bits) [L]abel disk [A]ll [edit to suit] [Q]uit [E]xit [E]xit (or something extremely similar(follow your nose)) julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 08:55:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA15005 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:55:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pancake.remcomp.fr (root@pancake.remcomp.fr [194.51.30.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14998 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from didier@localhost) by zapata.omnix.fr.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA00680; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:23:48 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:23:47 +0100 (MET) From: didier@omnix.fr.org To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: is there any known problem between samba and WFW ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk on some WFW machines the FreeBSD box seems to disappear. do you have any hint to resolve this problem. -- Didier Derny didier@omnix.fr.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 08:58:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA15222 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA15217 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jfieber@localhost) by fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04781; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:57:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:57:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu To: Terry Lambert cc: rich@lamprey.utmb.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199603191935.MAA24490@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I heard from Thomas Graichen that the mathematica > > floating licence manager does not work correctly with > > FreeBSD. > > This is (was?) the problem with the IBCS2 WordPerfect. I thought > that it was fixed (wasn't it a NULL valued timeval struct or something?). How recently? I have not tried running WP (the licence manager actually) in quite a while... -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 09:16:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16496 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16491 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Wed, 20 Mar 96 12:16:13 -0500 Received: from compound (fergus-29.dialup.cfa.org) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Wed, 20 Mar 96 12:16:09 EST Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound (8.6.12/8.6.112) id LAA20371; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:16:44 -0600 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:16:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199603201716.LAA20371@compound> From: Tony Kimball To: dennis@etinc.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603201653.LAA05552@etinc.com> (dennis@etinc.com) Subject: Re: ADSL Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I promise not to respond any more in this thread, but I can't resist clarifying my previous statements which were not clear enough to communicate effectively. From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:53:41 -0500 >99.9% of that bandwidth is going to go to VOD. Me, I just want to >push the bottleneck out of my house into the ISP premises, then I'm happy. >If the ISP is inadequate to my needs, I'll shop for another ISP. Shop til you drop! we just added features that let an ISP FILTER OUT video traffic, because you can't let a someone paying $22. a month run CUSEEME on a 28.8 line for 6 hours. VOD should never touch the net any more than POTS or Fax traffic. I'm talking about CATV replacement. Cable is also technically obsolete, although I expect it to take many more years to die (say 2008 maybe) than ISDN will take because there is much more pre-existing plant and the mean customer base is more conservative. In the future net services will be managed by the same people who do the phone and the tv. One bill each month. With T1 service priced at $1000. a month, I don't think that the average Joe is going to dump his dial-up connection for it even if the modem and the line are free. T1 doesn't cost 1k/mo where I live, it costs $300. Nor can an ISP expect to charge T1 rates for a pipe that shares a T1 link with 1000 other users. At that rate, you should ideally charge $0.30/mo, but of course there are other cost factors which dominate. That is why you pay $20/mo for 7x24 dialup. An ISP who fails to accomodate the changing technical and economic realities of the situtation will not compete effectively any more than a 2400baud ISP could compete today. (But Tymenet still lives!) I know full well that even the most rabid bleeders will not buy ADSL today. I'm one of them. But this June they will. And by June next, the overwhelming technical superiority of ADSL and the economies of scale will be pushing into the mainstream user base. And no matter *what* I *promise* not to respond to any more replies. Really, I do. Follow-up to private mail or comp.dcom.isdn or somesuch. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 09:21:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16969 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16938 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA05607; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:22:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:22:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199603201722.MAA05607@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Greg Lehey From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >dennis says: >>> Well, I've been away from the list for a few days, and so much has >>> come in that I don't think it would make sense to respond to each >>> message individually, so here's a summary: >>> >>> 1. Speed of a connection. Some people say "the bottleneck is the B >>> channel, so you can use async instead". >> >> This is the funniest thing I've ever heard......LOL > >Hmm. From that comment, I don't know if you're agreeing with me or >not. I'm not. >Certainly the part you quote didn't come across well: what I was >trying to say was > > Some people say "the bottleneck is the B channel, so using async as > well doesn't add any further load". > This is just as funny..... >I'll stick to that. Using async to connect to an ISDN B channel is a >dinosaur. 64kbs is 64kbs. OF COURSE its the bottlenect, but saying it doesnt matter what you run over it is nonsense. dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 09:34:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA19342 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA19331 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA29744; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:32:16 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603201732.LAA29744@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #986 To: witr@rwwa.com (Robert Withrow) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:32:16 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603201329.IAA13281@spooky.rwwa.com> from "Robert Withrow" at Mar 20, 96 08:29:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Of course, getting the ISP to let you bring dry wire and your modems > > into their facility is another matter. You probably will have as much > > luck getting them to let you use one of those 20mile/10Mbit spread spectrum > > transmitters that make the connections over the air. > > That is the real problem. Their bread and butter is 9600 baud > internal fax-modem Pee Cee users, and they seem to have very > little interest in affordable bandwidth of the kind I want to > have. Probably has something to do with the fact that that same bandwidth that you want to be "affordable" costs THEM an arm and a leg :-) Your typical small ISP works on the basis of bringing an expensive T1 into their office (long distance), probably for around $4000/month, and breaking it up into dozens of circuits (let's say 40 $100/month dedicated 28.8K connections). That's an overcommit situation, but it works as long as not all of the connections are yabbering away at full speed simultaneously. It even works in the case where a percentage of them ARE yabbering away at full speed 24/7, but not all of them, because you would be swamping your network connection. Your typical big ISP does the same thing by bringing in a T3 and splitting it up into fifty T1's. Now how do you price a connection with the potential ability to singlehandedly swamp your own network link? You could put instantaneous bandwidth limits on it... say, 'well you can't go faster than 128kb/s' - but people won't like that because they WANT the speed. You could put average bandwidth limits on it... say 'well, you can't exceed 100MB of traffic per hour', but people won't really like that either. You could bill them $2000/month. There goes "low cost". It's not a matter of bread and butter. It's a matter of "bandwidth is expensive". An ISP will happily sell you any circuit you can imagine, as long as the price allows the ISP to buy the resources to continue providing a reasonable level of service to all their customers. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 09:35:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA19395 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19370 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA27315; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:27:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603201727.KAA27315@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:27:23 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, rich@lamprey.utmb.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Mar 20, 96 11:57:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I heard from Thomas Graichen that the mathematica > > > floating licence manager does not work correctly with > > > FreeBSD. > > > > This is (was?) the problem with the IBCS2 WordPerfect. I thought > > that it was fixed (wasn't it a NULL valued timeval struct or something?). > > How recently? I have not tried running WP (the licence manager actually) > in quite a while... Within the last two weeks. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 09:40:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA19897 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19745 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA05647; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:42:17 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:42:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199603201742.MAA05647@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Ah, sorry Jordan. He's quite correct. >> >> 64kb/sec of _data_ requires 80kb/sec on an async line, because you have >> to _add_ start and stop bits to _make_ it async. > >Sigh. Maybe I'm just dense, but I never saw the part of this >conversation where we were talking about CONVERTING from sync to >async, I assumed that you'd either be talking sync-sync on both sides >or doing async-async and skipping the overhead because you'd never >_get_ 64Kbps of syncronous data from the other end to pad out with >start and stop bits. > >Yes, you and Greg are perfectly correct then and I'm arguing a totally >different and erroneous argument. I'll shut up now and spare -hackers >any more input on ISDN from this end.. :-) I think that its important to note that the original premise was wrong.... the 80k that you receive only yields 64k of actual data bits because the start and stop bits are not data. A 64kbs physical medium can only send or receive 64kbs (its not a difficult concept), The fact that it adds start-stop bits at a higher rate when txing to the PC does not accelerate the data, which cannot come in at more than 64kbs. So the original claim that Mr. Kamp was getting 75000bps throughput on a 64kbs line can only be true if he counts the start-stop bits as data, which they are not. His claim is not possible without compression. Also of note is that sync HDLC has 4 bytes of overhead per frame (8 if you're using PPP), plus IP and TCP overhead if you're relying on FTP statistics, so even a full 64kbs is not possilbe. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 10:00:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA21159 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21154 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA08010; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:03:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:03:00 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603201803.LAA08010@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Cc: Tony Kimball , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ADSL In-Reply-To: <199603201653.LAA05552@etinc.com> References: <199603201653.LAA05552@etinc.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Shop til you drop! we just added features that let an ISP FILTER OUT video > traffic, because you can't let a someone paying $22. a month run CUSEEME > on a 28.8 line for 6 hours. How do you determine it's video traffic? If it's on a per-port basis, how is this any different from the current IPFW ability? Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 10:33:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA23204 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:33:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwinver.invermexico.com.mx (gfi.invermexico.com.mx [148.248.47.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA23196 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from netra.invermexico.com.mx by fwinver.invermexico.com.mx with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA01717; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:33:47 -0600 Received: from dessis.invermexico.com.mx (desagfi.dessis.invermexico.com.mx) by netra.invermexico.com.mx (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA12674; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:33:27 -0600 Received: from luisc.lan.sis.gfi by dessis.invermexico.com.mx (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA20421; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:29:33 -0600 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:29:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199603201829.MAA20421@dessis.invermexico.com.mx> X-Sender: luiscarb@desagfi.dessis.invermexico.com.mx X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@FreeBSD.org From: Luis Carballo Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anybody know how to configure the SoundBlaster 16 Plug and Play card?, my system doesn't recognize it. Are there new drivers for it? Thanks luiscarb@gfi.invermexico.com.mx Atte Luis Carballo From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 10:37:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA23573 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA23566 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA29940; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:35:15 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603201835.MAA29940@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: ADSL To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:35:15 -0600 (CST) Cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603191542.JAA10395@compound> from "Tony Kimball" at Mar 19, 96 09:42:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ADSL is available everywhere, because all it takes is a pair of wires. > If your ISP won't support ADSL, you will be needing a new ISP. > Yes, you can use the same line for POTS and Fax. What do I ask my phone company to provision my line for? ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 10:47:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA24075 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24070 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA29964; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:45:04 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603201845.MAA29964@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: ADSL To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:45:04 -0600 (CST) Cc: garyj@frt.dec.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603192214.QAA13071@compound> from "Tony Kimball" at Mar 19, 96 04:14:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Worse than that, I only care about Fergus Falls, Minnesota! > It's still true, whether you are in Europe or Podunk, that if > you can buy a dry pair to your ISP, you can run ADSL as soon as > the price curve hits your payback level. It hits mine in June. > SDSL might hit before year's end. Interesting. What about when your ISP wants to charge you $500-$1000 a month for the bandwidth? When does THAT become affordable? ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 10:47:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA24121 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24115 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id TAA20119; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:30:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from knobel.gun.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knobel.gun.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA07371; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:25:37 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:25:37 +0100 (MET) From: Andreas Klemm To: Dave Hayes cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk In-Reply-To: <199603200107.RAA16306@kachina.jetcafe.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Dave Hayes wrote: > [...] > *Why* the hell is adding a 2nd disk to a currently running OS Guru > level lore? > [...] Yesterday evening I started to add my 2nd SCSI Harddisk to my home System. Looks like I have 5 GB now ;-) Well, although I knew directly, that I have to fiddle around with disklabel, I'd suggest to people like you, to first do the most obviuos thing ... check the manpages. The command 'apropos disk' gives you lot's of ideas, where to search for pieces of information. The most important here: ... disklabel(5) - disk pack label disklabel(8) - read and write disk pack label disktab(5) - disk description file ... One look in /etc/disktab shows you what to do next, or not :-> What I did ... RTFM and write an disktab entry for my 1.05 GB Fujitsu Harddisk. The data for that I got by looking at the boot messages. With the command 'dmesg' you can watch the last boot messages to get the data of your harddisk (sectors, heads,...) (ahc0:0:0): "QUANTUM XP34301 1051" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 4106MB (8410200 512 byte sectors) sd0(ahc0:0:0): with 4076 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 103 sectors/track (ahc0:1:0): "FUJITSU M2694ES-512 8139" type 0 fixed SCSI 1 sd1(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 1033MB (2117025 512 byte sectors) sd1(ahc0:1:0): with 1819 cyls, 15 heads, and an average 77 sectors/track (ahc0:6:0): "TOSHIBA CD-ROM XM-3601TA 0725" type 5 removable SCSI 2 If you don't get the geometry of your SCSI disk, then please compile your kernel with the option 'SCSI_REPORT_GEOMETRY' (Always report disk geometry at boot up instead of only when booting verbosely) or boot with the option -v after halting the system. Now you know your disk geometry, to make a nice disktab entry for your harddisk. Here is mine as an example: # c == d == whole disk # (ahc0:1:0): "FUJITSU M2694ES-512 8139" type 0 fixed SCSI 1 # sd1(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 1033MB (2117025 512 byte sectors) # sd1(ahc0:1:0): with 1819 cyls, 15 heads, and an average 77 sectors/track # 1819cyls * 15heads * 77sectors/track = 2100945 sectors fujitsu|F2694ES|Fujitsu M2694ES-512 1.05GB:\ :dt=SCSI:\ :ty=winchester:\ :se#512:nt#15:ns#77:nc#1819:rm#5400:\ :pa#1893045:oa#207900:ba#8192:fa#1024:ta=4.2BSD:\ :pb#207900:ob#0:tb=swap: \ :pc#2100945:oc#0: After that do the magic command disklabel -r -w /dev/rsd1c fujitsu Or something else suitable for you... Assuming your new disk is /dev/sd1... too. After that you have the possibility to make filesystems # newfs /dev/rsd1a And then you can mount them and put them into /etc/fstab to mount the filesystems automatically (and to get them checked of yourse ;-) here is mine /etc/fstab: /dev/sd1b none swap sw 0 0 /dev/sd1a /rel ufs rw 1 1 Note, that I now have to swap areas for delayed paging, it's nice to distribute the swap load to two disks: # pstat -s Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/sd0s3b 98304 13124 85116 13% Interleaved /dev/sd1b 103950 13072 90814 13% Interleaved Total 202126 26196 175930 13% Hope that helps a bit... If you are a kind person, you bring my tips into a nice form, best would be sgml based, and then it can move to the FreeBSD handbook. Now it's your turn :-)) Andreas /// -- andreas@knobel.gun.de /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ $$ Support Unix - aklemm@wup.de $$ pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< "Ich bleibe bei der Aussage und trotze den Flames. :-)" Ulli Horlacher 02/96 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 10:52:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA24602 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA24596 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id TAA22775; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:50:46 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA13857; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:50:46 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id TAA08854; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:06:49 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603201806.TAA08854@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:06:49 +0100 (MET) Cc: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) In-Reply-To: <199603201038.CAA25463@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 20, 96 02:38:18 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Dave Hayes wrote: > >Because few people work with us to make it turnkey. > > Why is that? Since once you know how to setup a disk, you will suddenly feel that there might be more urgent things to hack upon. > would have been no flame. But the tools don't work. Fdisk doesn't > work reliably. Without fdisk, disklabel seems worthless. fdisk is far from being optimal -- but what exactly ``doesn't work reliably''? > If, however, they see experienced administrators struggle with adding > a 2nd disk (something that DOS can do in seconds, we all *like* UNIX > on this list right?), it doesn't look so good does it? I can also do it within a few seconds. The worst that it might need me (for a sliced disk) is to hack an /etc/fstab entry. Given the templates there, and the total number of sectors as printed in the boot messages, this doesn't take more than a minute. Nevertheless, i'm thinking of a redesigned fdisk (that will most likely include the functionality of disklabel(8)). You are free to overhaul me in time with your version, of course. :-) (And no, i won't be angry about the wasted time. I'm intending to write it for only one reason: i'm sick of the too many complaints about the lack of such a tool, and i'm sick of answering this question in Usenet more than two dozens times by now.) See also my other reply from this morning (European time). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 11:04:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA25169 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25160 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-082.etinc.com (ppp-082.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA05740; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:03:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:03:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199603201903.OAA05740@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Tony Kimball From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: ADSL Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I promise not to respond any more in this thread, but I can't >resist clarifying my previous statements which were not clear enough >to communicate effectively. > > From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:53:41 -0500 > > >99.9% of that bandwidth is going to go to VOD. Me, I just want to > >push the bottleneck out of my house into the ISP premises, then I'm happy. > >If the ISP is inadequate to my needs, I'll shop for another ISP. > > Shop til you drop! we just added features that let an ISP FILTER OUT video > traffic, because you can't let a someone paying $22. a month run CUSEEME > on a 28.8 line for 6 hours. > >VOD should never touch the net any more than POTS or Fax traffic. I'm >talking about CATV replacement. Cable is also technically obsolete, >although I expect it to take many more years to die (say 2008 maybe) >than ISDN will take because there is much more pre-existing plant and >the mean customer base is more conservative. In the future net >services will be managed by the same people who do the phone and the >tv. One bill each month. Something is wrong here. Are you saying that ISPs are going to be providing you with VOD from your cable company? If it "never touches the net', then how do you justify your "80X the performance of ISDN" claim". I pay $19 a month for cable and frankly don't care if I can hook my PC to cable or use my phone line, particularly if 99.9% of the bandwidth is only available to VOD. > > With T1 service > priced at $1000. a month, I don't think that the average Joe is going to > dump his dial-up connection for it even if the modem and the line are free. > >T1 doesn't cost 1k/mo where I live, it costs $300. Nor can an ISP >expect to charge T1 rates for a pipe that shares a T1 link with 1000 >other users. If thats the case then you're not getting T1, are you? Again, your performance numbers dry up. >At that rate, you should ideally charge $0.30/mo, but >of course there are other cost factors which dominate. That is why >you pay $20/mo for 7x24 dialup. An ISP who fails to accomodate the >changing technical and economic realities of the situtation will not >compete effectively any more than a 2400baud ISP could compete today. >(But Tymenet still lives!) Lets have a show of hands of ISPs that charge $20. for 24X 7 unmetered dial-up........ > >I know full well that even the most rabid bleeders will not buy ADSL >today. I'm one of them. But this June they will. And by June next, >the overwhelming technical superiority of ADSL and the economies of >scale will be pushing into the mainstream user base. > Oh...people will buy it...but your numbers are WAY off. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 11:21:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA25822 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:21:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25696 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-082.etinc.com (ppp-082.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA05774; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:21:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:21:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199603201921.OAA05774@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Nate Williams From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: ADSL Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Shop til you drop! we just added features that let an ISP FILTER OUT video >> traffic, because you can't let a someone paying $22. a month run CUSEEME >> on a 28.8 line for 6 hours. > >How do you determine it's video traffic? If it's on a per-port basis, >how is this any different from the current IPFW ability? Actually I was somewhat inaccurate here as our filters only work on sync connections, but the concept is applicable. its not much different, except it can be done on a per line or DLCI basis, which means that the overhead is restricted to incoming or outgoing traffic on a particular connection. You can also set specific data types to "low priority", which can be made to be discarded first when the system hits a backup threshold or to be transmitted with the DE bit enabled on a frame relay link. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 11:25:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA26090 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26085 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA25448 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:25:32 -0800 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA27506; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:13:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603201913.MAA27506@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: mailling list content To: jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com (James Leppek) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:13:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9603201458.AA10531@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> from "James Leppek" at Mar 20, 96 09:58:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmmmm, this may not go over well with some but as a long > time lurker and user it seems that freebsd-hackers has turned into > ,dare I say it, a newsgroup :-( > There seems to be more and more general topic chit chats and technology > (not freebsd) discussions. Is it only my perception???? > Is this inevitable with an increase in popularity of > freebsd ( the internet was so nice and quite in the early 80's :-) ) > I am concerned that we may begin to lose freebsd contributors on > the list. Jordan recent "flamed" me for this one, giving me a nice Sword of Damocles to deal with should I repond publically. My private response was that the hacker he was concerned about didn't have to unsubscribe to get rid of the noise. He could have installed the "elm" "filter" program (no, you don't have use elm, then) and simply "killed" the offensive-to-him threads by subject. He could also lump the lists into seperate mailboxes by origin, an quickly scan the low signal lists when he felt he had the time instead of having it part of one big lumpy thing (and he could again kill threads by subject, etc., on a per list basis). Personally, I lump by origin, and haven't needed to kill anything by subject yet. If I ever do, I'll setup shell scripts and cron-based aging of subjects so they come back after a week or two (in case they get reused). So I think your fears are largely unfounded. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 11:25:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA26147 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26136 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0tzTVE-0003xOC; Wed, 20 Mar 96 11:25 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA13154; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:24:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) cc: Greg Lehey , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:22:33 EST." <199603201722.MAA05607@etinc.com> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:24:49 +0000 Message-ID: <13152.827349889@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Can we STOP THIS THREAD NOW ????? It has NOTHING to do with FreeBSD, whatsoever!! Thankyou! -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 11:38:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA26701 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26696 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:38:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA23422 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:38:13 -0800 (PST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Apologies to Terry.. Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:38:13 -0800 Message-ID: <23420.827350693@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My last message to -hackers concerning the traffic overload we're experiencing contained a somewhat ad-hominum attack on Terry, leaving him also no chance to defend himself or be deemed guilty of the very offense I was accusing him of. While my fundamental point about reducing traffic was sound, my shot at Terry was below the belt and deserves an apology. Terry, my apologies! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 11:46:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA27227 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA27207 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:46:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA00538; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:41:45 -0800 Message-Id: <199603201941.LAA00538@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Joe Greco cc: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball), lehey.pad@sni.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ADSL In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:35:15 CST." <199603201835.MAA29940@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:41:44 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Joe Greco said: > > ADSL is available everywhere, because all it takes is a pair of wires. > > If your ISP won't support ADSL, you will be needing a new ISP. > > Yes, you can use the same line for POTS and Fax. > > What do I ask my phone company to provision my line for? > A PBX extension? 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 12:21:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA01138 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01133 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:21:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id OAA00398; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:19:02 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603202019.OAA00398@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: PPP bonding .. To: imb@scgt.oz.au (michael butler) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:19:01 -0600 (CST) Cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603201527.CAA29139@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> from "michael butler" at Mar 21, 96 02:27:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Greg Lehey writes: > > > If anybody either side of the pond can give any input on channel bonding, > > I'd be grateful, and I'm sure Gary will be too. > > Speaking of bonding .. what's needed to allow two modem-based PPP interfaces > link to the same destination ? As far as I can tell .. > > i) you need one "virtual interface" at the route socket level with path > splitting underneath it. I would think that the "tun" device is a good approximation :-) > ii) the "splitter" needs to have an intimate knowledge of the transmit queue > lengths of each of the paths in order to choose the one with the least > latency. I think iijppp can find this out. > iii) Possibly, with assymetric or paths of different speed, some weighting > needs to be applied in addition to simple length assessment. > > What else needs to be addressed ? Can this be (realistically) done by > hacking on ijppp or is it a kernel-only job ? Without having looked at iijppp itself, I would say that it's the perfect paradigm. You have a single kernel interface, "tun0", etc. "iijppp" opens modem(s), connects them, and shuffles packets out whichever serial interface it needs to, based on load or fancy algorithms. You take the kernel and associated muckiness out of the loop, making it easier to test and develop. > Linux seems to have this capability .. do we want (need ?) to be compatible > with them ? ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 12:30:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA01587 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01552 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA27703; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:22:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603202022.NAA27703@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: andreas@knobel.gun.de (Andreas Klemm) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:22:29 -0700 (MST) Cc: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Andreas Klemm" at Mar 20, 96 07:25:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > [...] > > *Why* the hell is adding a 2nd disk to a currently running OS Guru > > level lore? > > [...] > > Yesterday evening I started to add my 2nd SCSI Harddisk to my > home System. Looks like I have 5 GB now ;-) > > Well, although I knew directly, that I have to fiddle around with > disklabel, I'd suggest to people like you, to first do the most > obviuos thing ... check the manpages. > > The command 'apropos disk' gives you lot's of ideas, where > to search for pieces of information. The most important here: > > ... > disklabel(5) - disk pack label > disklabel(8) - read and write disk pack label > disktab(5) - disk description file > ... Stop right there. the concept of "disktab" is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that it is not possible to determine the disk size from the controller, and it assumes uniform boundry recording for seek optimization. The seek optimization is, in reality, useless because ZBR media makes it very difficult (without SCSI II extended queries) to determine the real cylinder boundries to do the optimization. It is no longer a simple mathematical relationship... and if that were not enough, geometry translation pounds an oak stake into its heart. Finally, seek optimization is predicated on the idea that is no longer true: that seek times are many more times more expensive than rotations. This has changed by about a factor of 100 since the optimization first went in, but the code hasn't changed at all. This baically leaves default sector sparing settings, sector counts designed to be on (no longer applicable) cylinder boundries, and slice geometries that should be interactively determined instead of frozen in an obsolete data file. The disktab should go. I don't know if I speak for anyone else, but the two things that have kept me from jumping in, muzzles of my C compiler flashing, are: 1) Devfs is a necessary framework to really fix most of these problems in the most general and broadly applicable way possible. 2) Representational geometry (ie: a good user interface is a real bitch to design -- I want something that a GUI tool could open, but which is command line based, that won't be too hard to use in either mode). Help lobby to get rid of mknod, MAKEDEV, and specfs, and put in devfs by default, and you will be 90% of the way to "disk heaven". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 12:31:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA01609 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:31:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01604 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id VAA25536; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:00:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from knobel.gun.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knobel.gun.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA25672; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:36:28 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:36:27 +0100 (MET) From: Andreas Klemm To: Jerry Kendall cc: Dave Hayes , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk In-Reply-To: <96Mar20.094540est.18436-1@janus.border.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Jerry Kendall wrote: > A few weeks ago, actually, a few months ago, I started to create a utility > that I named 'diskmaint' that currently will 'fdisk' a hard disk. I am > about 50% done the part that will 'disklabel'. That sounds great. Does your utility also create missing /dev/entries for harddisks ? Just a question ... > what remains is the ability > to 'newfs' the partitions. I have been doing it undex 'X' using the > xforms library. A lot of people bitched about the 'xforms' aspect so > I slowed down on the rush. This has the added affect of pissing some > people off. people ... ;-) > BUT, as a few others have said in reply to this message, > it IS a 'develop the toys as needed' environment. I will finish it. That's very fine, thanks ! > Perhaps I MAY be inclined to create a 'text' mode version for those > snotty peoply that sent me 'flames'. Well, I can understand, that many people don't use X and would have liked to see a text only version for obvious reason. But it's not a reason to write a flame ... > But for now I will finish the xforms version. Thanks, that you still work on this... I had made similar experiences with apsfilter. It finished, that I throw him out of my mailfoder by "written (dark, cloudy) voice" ;-) > In the mean time I am willing to chat directly with you to help you > get past this problem... Is this satisfactory ??? Well, see my mail, maybe it helped him... -- andreas@knobel.gun.de /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ $$ Support Unix - aklemm@wup.de $$ pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< "Ich bleibe bei der Aussage und trotze den Flames. :-)" Ulli Horlacher 02/96 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 12:33:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA01817 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01810 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id VAA25630; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:00:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from knobel.gun.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knobel.gun.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA27779; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:39:23 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:39:23 +0100 (MET) From: Andreas Klemm To: michael butler cc: Greg Lehey , jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PPP bonding .. In-Reply-To: <199603201527.CAA29139@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, michael butler wrote: > Speaking of bonding .. what's needed to allow two modem-based PPP interfaces > link to the same destination ? As far as I can tell .. > [...] > Linux seems to have this capability .. do we want (need ?) to be compatible > with them ? Would be fine to be compatible with many other systems. -- andreas@knobel.gun.de /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ $$ Support Unix - aklemm@wup.de $$ pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< "Ich bleibe bei der Aussage und trotze den Flames. :-)" Ulli Horlacher 02/96 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 12:34:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA01924 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01914 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-082.etinc.com (ppp-082.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA05896; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:35:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:35:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199603202035.PAA05896@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: michael butler From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: PPP bonding .. Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Greg Lehey writes: > >> If anybody either side of the pond can give any input on channel bonding, >> I'd be grateful, and I'm sure Gary will be too. > >Speaking of bonding .. what's needed to allow two modem-based PPP interfaces >link to the same destination ? As far as I can tell .. > >i) you need one "virtual interface" at the route socket level with path >splitting underneath it. > >ii) the "splitter" needs to have an intimate knowledge of the transmit queue >lengths of each of the paths in order to choose the one with the least >latency. > >iii) Possibly, with assymetric or paths of different speed, some weighting >needs to be applied in addition to simple length assessment. > >What else needs to be addressed ? Can this be (realistically) done by >hacking on ijppp or is it a kernel-only job ? > >Linux seems to have this capability .. do we want (need ?) to be compatible >with them ? Nay...not really. BONDING is the wrong term here. MP (Multilink-PPP) is the standard, RFC 1717. We're doing it for sync...its not very difficult to do with a truly layered implementation. MP uses sequencing so that packets which arrive out of order are reassembled correctly..although you certainly don't want that to happen very often. Its not very good, but it IS the standard and if you're going to do something it ought to be MP. dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 12:38:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA02189 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:38:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix.stylo.it (ppp.stylo.it [194.21.207.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02175 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from servernt.stylo.it (servernt.stylo.it [194.21.207.13]) by unix.stylo.it (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA29193 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:32:26 +0100 Received: by servernt.stylo.it with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.1.611) id <01BB16A5.30375C50@servernt.stylo.it>; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:35:41 +0100 Message-ID: From: Angelo Turetta To: freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: GAS question Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:35:39 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.1.611 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB16A5.3038E2F0" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB16A5.3038E2F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Which SDK? I know for a fact that the (now two and a half year old) > Windows NT 3.1 Win32 SDK had the C compiler on it. That is not exact. Only the BETA Win32 SDK CDs used to include the C = compiler. (they were forced to do so, otherwise I can't imagine how = developers could have tested the SDK ? :-) >From the moment NT was released, the compiler was stripped from the SDK = and became a stand-alone product. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Turetta mailto:aturetta@stylo.it Stylo Multimedia - Bologna - Italy http://www.stylo.it/ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB16A5.3038E2F0-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 12:40:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA02420 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02415 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA05598; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:36:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199603202036.MAA05598@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: J Wunsch cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:36:29 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: >As Dave Hayes wrote: >> >Because few people work with us to make it turnkey. >> Why is that? >Since once you know how to setup a disk, you will suddenly feel that >there might be more urgent things to hack upon. Exactly. >> would have been no flame. But the tools don't work. Fdisk doesn't >> work reliably. Without fdisk, disklabel seems worthless. >fdisk is far from being optimal -- but what exactly ``doesn't work >reliably''? I have found that I can Fdisk a disk, but subsequent disklabel will refuse to write a label that the OS can read. ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< Nasrudin arrived at an all-comers horse race mounted on the slowest of oxen. Everyone laughed, an ox cannot run. "But I have seen it, when it was only a calf, running faster than a horse.", said Nasrudin. "So why should it not run faster, now that it is larger?" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 12:44:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA02627 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02621 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA05712; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:44:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199603202044.MAA05712@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: Andreas Klemm cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:44:16 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andreas Klemm writes: >Well, although I knew directly, that I have to fiddle around with >disklabel, I'd suggest to people like you, to first do the most >obviuos thing ... check the manpages. I *did*. >One look in /etc/disktab shows you what to do next, or not :-> But sysinstall doesn't *use* disktab...at least from what I could figure out. Even if it does (hidden in there somewhere), it sure doesn't leave an entry in the table after it is done. >If you don't get the geometry of your SCSI disk, then please >compile your kernel with the option 'SCSI_REPORT_GEOMETRY' Hmm. Why isn't the default kernel configured to do this? I knew not about this option, which makes sense. But the problem is, fdisk doesn't seem to enable disklabel to do it's job. >Note, that I now have to swap areas for delayed paging, it's >nice to distribute the swap load to two disks: Do you have metrics for this that I can duplicate? >Hope that helps a bit... If you are a kind person, you >bring my tips into a nice form, best would be sgml based, >and then it can move to the FreeBSD handbook. Only if you can tell me why fdisk would NOT work in a given situation. That's where I stumble. Do that, and I'll write this up for the handbook. ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< What bread looks like depends upon whether you are hungry or not. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 12:48:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA02924 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02915 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA05777; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:48:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199603202048.MAA05777@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: Jerry Kendall cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:48:11 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jerry Kendall writes: >Perhaps I MAY be inclined to create a 'text' mode version for those >snotty peoply that sent me 'flames'. But for now I will finish the >xforms version. Hey, I was pissed. It's a new day now. >In the mean time I am willing to chat directly with you to help you >get past this problem... Is this satisfactory ??? I've already regenerated the system from scratch, but I'd be happy to use my home testbed and a new SCSI disk to test your utility here. The real problem is "fdisk" (I think). ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< One only fights what one thinks is real. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 13:06:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA03825 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03818 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA05989; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:06:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199603202106.NAA05989@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:06:12 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> >Because few people work with us to make it turnkey. >> Why is that? >No idea. It's a boring and thankless task, perhaps? Could be. >If you're keen to throw $$$ my way so that I can >actually afford to do this someday, the full details on donations are >given in http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/submitters.html >> I await it too. Gee, if I understood it well enough to automate it, >> I'd have done so, my server would be in it's previous state, and there >> would have been no flame. But the tools don't work. Fdisk doesn't >> work reliably. Without fdisk, disklabel seems worthless. >I sincerely suggest commercial software in your case then. Clearly, >you just don't "get it" about this free stuff and I can only point >you at an organization like BSDI who is at least paid to try and fix >your complaints in a timely fashion. I do "get it" about this free stuff. The free stuff is guaranteed not to be affected by marketing hype, the frail whims of a tyrant overlord CEO, or a big mass communications company's desire for profit. Many companies have been forced to go down a certain technical path because of the previous bullshit. With "free UNIX", it's now possible to chart your own destiny. Naturally, I think in the long term that the $$$ you seem to want (implied by your previous comments) would come as a welcome donation from some of the cooler companies out there...assuming someone can get them to see the wisdom of this way. Commercial software is a panacea of great price and little worth to those who are sick of upgrading to long term dead end OSs like NT. >Again, as I said quite directly in my first reply to you - the >problems with fdisk and disklabel's interfaces are KNOWN. Not by me. If someone will point me to the problems, as I told Andres, I will write them up in HTML and send them to you folks...section 10.4 I believe? >> Unfortunately, there's a LOT to learn about this particular invocation >> of BSD and why it does what it does. I'd much rather spend the time >> seeing what it can do, and getting other companies interested in using >> it. >And I'd be more than happy to see you engage in such promotion. I'm >well aware of the concept of "each to his or her own particular area >of strength." However, you will have to learn to be a lot more >patient with the areas of weakness if you want to hang out here and >use this product without bringing angry denounciations down upon your >head. Look, I'm sorry I got pissed. Can I be human and get pissed off at losing a man month of work because sysinstall doesn't know the difference between its disks? >Venting your spleen about some bug which mangled your system, killed >your dog and drove your wife into the arms of the cable repairman may >make you feel better for a time, but NO positive result will ensue and >you will have done *nothing* to encourage a resolution of the problem - >quite the opposite, most likely. It's a far more positive approach to >ask instead how you might help to fix the problem, even if it's only to >act as a focal point for ideas, or presenting your own ideas as to how >you would like such a utility to look. When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's quite difficult to remember that your initial intention was to drain the swamp. >You have no "money" in the bank yet and hence have no credit for such >attacks of angst. This doesn't mean that you can't state your case, >you most certainly can, simply that you have no right to state it >forcefully since that will simply get you ignored as a flaming >expletive who does not appreciate all the good work that the project >HAS done. Then people who feel this way can consider me whatever they want. The people I generally work with are those who don't see the fulmination you refer to as anything serious, and are willing to help in spite of this. If you are truly passing yourself off as altruistic, you shouldn't demonstrate a need for validation for such altruism. If you demand validation, then that is the currency by which you are paid for your deeds. Don't get me wrong, I see what you are saying. I just don't agree. For one thing, you have no idea what I've been doing for FreeBSD because you haven't seen it. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't been done, and if you claim to want to see it before I can complain...you are demanding that I get validation from you for what I've done. -I- don't want any validation, I just want to do the work and see the thing succeed. Dig? >> I guess I'm questioning priorities in an absence of any knowledge >> about why. Losing an entire server because of a bug in sysinstall >> tends to get some people to flame first, and ask questions later. >If those people have little self-control, yes. Fortunately, most of >our users are actually fairly intelligent about the "lack of warranty" >implied by running free software and they're also more in control of >their emotions. Fine, I suck. Now can you point me in the direction of why fdisk fails? >> I did. I just rebuilt my server, and acquired more experience with >> sysinstall. That's something, isn't it? >For you, yes. For those who follow in your footsteps, no. In point >of fact, that's just about what everyone else who's encountered this >bug has done, which shows reasonable attention to self-interest but >very little to the community interest. The fallacy of this approach >should be fairly obvious to you, considering that you just tripped >over the same rock that none of the other sufferers ever bothered to >move out of the way. The fallacy of contributing to a community in a vacuum of quality information about the community's standards should be quite obvious as well. I don't know what your standards are, nor am I privvy to them. I'm just pointing out flaws. If you don't want that, I'll go away. ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< The king arrived at the resturant where Nasrudin had been left in charge. The king ordered an omelette. After his meal, when he saw the check he raised his eyebrows. "Eggs must be very costly here. Are they as scarce as that?" "It is not the eggs, your majesty...it is the visits of kings." From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 13:11:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA04112 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from prv-gw-mail.usg.provo.novell.com (prv-gw-mail.USG.Provo.Novell.COM [137.65.72.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA04091 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ddavis.NPD.Provo.Novell.COM by prv-gw-mail.usg.provo.novell.com ; 20 MAR 96 14:16:33 MDT Message-ID: <3150744E.41C67EA6@novell.com> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:10:38 -0700 From: "Darren R. Davis" Organization: Novell,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: User level threads. X-URL: http://nafs.NPD.Provo.Novell.COM/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk No, I haven't read the FAQ or researched this out. I guess I am looking for the quick answer. I have need of a user-level threads library. Is there a defacto standard in the BSD community? What's the current solution to this problem? -- Darren R. Davis Senior Software Engineer Novell, Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 13:22:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA04881 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA04871 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA00535; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:19:40 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199603202119.PAA00535@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: ADSL To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:19:40 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603201653.LAA05552@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Mar 20, 96 11:53:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Shop til you drop! we just added features that let an ISP FILTER OUT video > traffic, because you can't let a someone paying $22. a month run CUSEEME > on a 28.8 line for 6 hours. Actually you can, as long as it's only a small percentage doing it... > > BTW: ADSL is largely monodirectional (like 240kbs in one direction and 1.?? > > meg downstream). In any event, you'd better crank up the crystals on those > > 16550's boys.....~~~~~.whoooosh...... > > > >SDSL is symmetric. If you feel the need for 4Mb uploads you can > >either wait for SDSL to be competetive or run dual ADSL. > >In most of USWest country, it's still cheaper than ISDN, although > >doubling the hardware and lease costs does push the payback out > >from a few months to a couple of years. > > Of course, thats not what you said, but thats another story. The issue > is not the cost of the wire, but the cost of the service. With T1 service > priced at $1000. a month, I don't think that the average Joe is going to > dump his dial-up connection for it even if the modem and the line are free. Actually, you _can_ probably place ADSL in a somewhat less expensive (read: ~~~$500-$750/month) category, I just ran the figures for a sideline discussion with both conservative and liberal overcommit numbers... but by the time the tarriffs for ADSL come around, it'll still be big bucks paid to Ma Bell on top of the ISP bandwidth charge. On the other hand, the five year trend is that it's cheaper than ever to move data, and getting cheaper yet. It may be that by the year 2000, ADSL would be affordable for (some) home use. I like to be optimistic! ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 14:06:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA08397 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08390 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-082.etinc.com (ppp-082.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA06056; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:07:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:07:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199603202207.RAA06056@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: didier@omnix.fr.org From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: is there any known problem between samba and WFW ? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >on some WFW machines the FreeBSD box seems to disappear. >do you have any hint to resolve this problem. Check to make sure that nmbd is running. We couldn't get it to work reliably when spawning from inetd...we run it stand-alone and it seems to be fine. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 14:30:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA10289 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10253 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA27927; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:24:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603202224.PAA27927@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Apologies to Terry.. To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:24:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <23420.827350693@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 20, 96 11:38:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My last message to -hackers concerning the traffic overload we're > experiencing contained a somewhat ad-hominum attack on Terry, leaving > him also no chance to defend himself or be deemed guilty of the very > offense I was accusing him of. > > While my fundamental point about reducing traffic was sound, my shot > at Terry was below the belt and deserves an apology. Terry, my > apologies! Thanks, Jordan... I know I was definitely responsible for the GAS thread, and it had drifted into the FreeBSD-advocacy/PR range, making it off-topic for -hackers. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 14:45:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA11522 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11510 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:45:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id WAA00354 ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:44:49 GMT To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:22:29 MST." <199603202022.NAA27703@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:44:49 +0000 Message-ID: <352.827361889@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote in message ID <199603202022.NAA27703@phaeton.artisoft.com>: > This baically leaves default sector sparing settings, sector counts > designed to be on (no longer applicable) cylinder boundries, and > slice geometries that should be interactively determined instead > of frozen in an obsolete data file. > The disktab should go. So how do you want to deal with the automatic generation of floppies during ``make release''? It sure as **** shouldn't be ``interactively determined''. Sure, kill disktab for hard drive use, but I say keep it (perhaps in a ``cut down'' format) for floppies. Gary From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 15:46:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA14598 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14586 Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA28107; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:40:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603202340.QAA28107@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG (Gary Palmer) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:40:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <352.827361889@palmer.demon.co.uk> from "Gary Palmer" at Mar 20, 96 10:44:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This baically leaves default sector sparing settings, sector counts > > designed to be on (no longer applicable) cylinder boundries, and > > slice geometries that should be interactively determined instead > > of frozen in an obsolete data file. > > > The disktab should go. > > So how do you want to deal with the automatic generation of floppies > during ``make release''? It sure as **** shouldn't be ``interactively > determined''. Sure, kill disktab for hard drive use, but I say keep it > (perhaps in a ``cut down'' format) for floppies. The disklabel program (which should go, too, in favor of a more generic mechanism not dependent on the BSD partitioning scheme) ought to issue an ioctl to the open disk device to query it for default paramters. For non-default parameters, they should be in the makefile as arguments. The eventual replacement should be a more generic tool. It would operate by: 1) Open /dev/dsk on the devfs. 2) Issue ioctl's to determine allowable logical-to-phyisical mapping schemas. 3) Present a menu of available schemas to apply at the device level. For instance, the menu for /dev/dsk/c0d0t0 (controller zero, disk zero, lun zero) would include: a) Leave device unpartitioned for use as a file system b) Add DOS partitioning to device c) Add BSD (Disklabel I) partitioning to device d) Add Solaris (Disklabel II) partitioning to device 4) If the user selected "b", then an ioctl would be made to cause a DOS partition table to be written to the raw device, and the user would be called upon to arrange space into DOS partitions. 5) For each DOS partition the logical device driver for DOS partitions saw as a result of a callback from the ioctl to write the partition information, a /dev/dsk/c0d0t0/p<#> is attached in the devfs framework. 6) Again, you can present a menu, this time for DOS partition 1 (/dev/dsk/c0d0t0/p0): a) Leave device unpartitioned for use as a file system b) Add DOS extended partitioning to device c) Add BSD (Disklabel I) partitioning to device d) Add Solaris (Disklabel II) partitioning to device (Note: Item 'b' has been changed). 7) And so on... Such a tool would have no partitioning-scheme-specific knowledge: that is, it would have no idea of what a disklabel was, other than the text string (or string identifier, if we allow language localization) that a logical device driver to present at the user interface. The tool would operate in three modes: 1) As a command line tool: [...] After each invocation, the tool would return its results and exit. This is suitable for use in shell scripts, etc. 2) As an interactive tool: If invoked with no arguments, it would present the prompt "toolname> " and take the exact same commands. The command "exit" and would have the effect of causing the tool to exit (in the command line mode, " exit" would return causing no modifications). 3) As a command channel. In this mode, a pipe will be established to stdin and stdout, and the tool may be programatically interrogated. The main difference is that there is no prompt if the tool stats it's stdin and finds it to be a pipe (which it will only do if it has no arguments). Structural hierarchy commands must be issuable to list the available options. Basically, a tool which runs this way can be used in a shell script during interactive installation, or can be opened by a "tool shell" GUI interface... that is, a GUI program that knows how to talk to this class of tools, and presents a user interface that is data driven off a standard set of queries which can be made to this class of tools. You write one GUI program and several tools programs and you have full GUI-based system administration -- for nearly free. Obviously, mode #3 requires some substantial work on command status API definition. It also requires the ability to have command sets as transactions. For instance, I could have an interarctive session: phaeton# toolname toolname> partition /dev/c0d0t0 DOS toolname: success toolname> add /dev/c0d0t0 0 400M toolname: success toolname> begin toolname: logging mode; use "commit" or "cancel" to stop logging toolname> partition /dev/c0d0t0/p0 BSD toolname> add /dev/c0d0t0/p0 0 100M toolname> add /dev/c0d0t0/p0 1 32M toolname> add /dev/c0d0t0/p0 2 268M toolname> commit toolname: commit: partition /dev/c0d0t0/p0 BSD toolname: commit: add /dev/c0d0t0/p0 0 100M toolname: commit: add /dev/c0d0t0/p0 1 32M toolname: commit: add /dev/c0d0t0/p0 2 268M toolname: success toolname> exit phaeton# newfs /dev/c0d0t0/p0/s0 [ ... ] phaeton# newfs /dev/c0d0t0/p0/s2 [ ... ] Clearly, "commit" and "cancel" refer to the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons in the dialog for "create a BSD partition" (with an input field set to 400M) that lets you carve up a BSD installation into a standard DOS partition. Unfortunately, without devfs, I haven't really spent the necessary time to figure out the GUI-related syntax for a nice, usable presentation (slider bars for partition sizing, etc.) that the tool would have to be able to present, or the query syntax to get it to present it based on the kernel logical device drivers present. Getting back to floppies: phaeton# toolname toolname> partition /dev/dsk/fd0 BSD toolname: success toolname> add /dev/dsk/fd0 3 ALL toolname: success toolname> exit Or, in shell script form: toolname partition /dev/dsk/fd0 BSD toolname add /dev/dsk/fd0 3 ALL newfs /dev/dsk/fd0/3 Obviously, there would be difference for bootable floppies; specifically, there would be a boot space reservation argument to the "partition" command... basically, something like "+8192" to the disk name to give a raw offset (worst case: just as in -current, a dummy DOS partition table would be written in the second stage boot as a "partitioning" method, and DOS partitions would be used to achieve the offset). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 16:19:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA16457 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16452 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA05249; Wed, 20 Mar 96 19:18:25 -0500 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id AAA04369; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:18:24 GMT Message-Id: <199603210018.AAA04369@exalt.x.org> To: Angelo Turetta Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GAS question In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:35:39 EDT. Organization: X Consortium Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:18:23 EDT From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Which SDK? I know for a fact that the (now two and a half year old) > > Windows NT 3.1 Win32 SDK had the C compiler on it. > > That is not exact. Only the BETA Win32 SDK CDs used to include the C = > compiler. (they were forced to do so, otherwise I can't imagine how = > developers could have tested the SDK ? :-) > From the moment NT was released, the compiler was stripped from the SDK = > and became a stand-alone product. At the risk of beating a dead horse, it is "exact." The Windows NT 3.1 Win32 SDK I have does have the C compiler on it and it is *not* a beta. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 17:06:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA20885 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [204.214.4.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20878 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from max7-147.HiWAAY.net by fly.HiWAAY.net; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id AA31641; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:06:11 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:06:15 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Subject: Re: mailling list content Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 1:13 PM 3/20/96, Terry Lambert wrote: >Personally, I lump by origin, and haven't needed to kill anything >by subject yet. If I ever do, I'll setup shell scripts and cron-based >aging of subjects so they come back after a week or two (in case they >get reused). Personally *I* sort by origin into "mailboxes" (Mac Eudora Pro, shame on me) then by time and subject within the mailbox. Flash thru the subjects. Read a few, then sort by author. Almost always read your postings as your signal-to-noise ratio is greater than most. Sometimes wonder how you have enough hours in the day to compose all the postings I see from you on the FreeBSD lists. Keep it up, its appreciated. -- David Kelly N4HHE, n4hhe@amsat.org, dkelly@hiwaay.net ============================================================= To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. - Thomas Edison From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 17:28:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA22902 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA22883 Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:28:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:28:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603210128.RAA22883@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers From: Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Welcome to freebsd-hackers Reply-To: Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -- Welcome to the freebsd-hackers mailing list! If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can send mail to "Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG" with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe freebsd-hackers freebsd-hackers Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in case you don't already have it: FREEBSD-HACKERS Technical discussions This is a forum for technical discussions related to FreeBSD. This is the primary technical mailing list. It is for individuals actively working on FreeBSD, to bring up problems or discuss alternative solutions. Individuals interested in following the technical discussion are also welcome. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 17:34:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA23482 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA23477 Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA12027; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:32:05 +1100 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:32:05 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603210132.MAA12027@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: gpalmer@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> The disktab should go. >So how do you want to deal with the automatic generation of floppies >during ``make release''? It sure as **** shouldn't be ``interactively >determined''. Sure, kill disktab for hard drive use, but I say keep it >(perhaps in a ``cut down'' format) for floppies. $generate_disklabel | sed 's/defaults/preferences/' | disklabel -R /dev/rfd0 /dev/stdin where $generate_disklabel is either `cat <; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:00:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.rwwa.com (localhost.rwwa.com [127.0.0.1]) by spooky.rwwa.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA14657 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:00:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199603210200.VAA14657@spooky.rwwa.com> X-Authentication-Warning: spooky.rwwa.com: Host localhost.rwwa.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: 3com PCI drivers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:00:20 -0500 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is anyone hacking on a 3c595 driver (since 2.1)? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 592 8935, Net: witr@rwwa.COM From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 18:30:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA28080 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28073 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA28579; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:23:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603210223.TAA28579@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: mailling list content To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:23:41 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "David Kelly" at Mar 20, 96 07:06:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Read a few, then sort by author. Almost always read your postings as your > signal-to-noise ratio is greater than most. Sometimes wonder how you have > enough hours in the day to compose all the postings I see from you on the > FreeBSD lists. I type on the order of 130 WPM when I get going on something. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 19:03:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA00349 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00343 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA15921; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:58:23 +1100 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:58:23 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603210258.NAA15921@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: andreas@knobel.gun.de, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Cc: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> The command 'apropos disk' gives you lot's of ideas, where >> to search for pieces of information. The most important here: >> >> ... >> disklabel(5) - disk pack label >> disklabel(8) - read and write disk pack label >> disktab(5) - disk description file >> ... >Stop right there. >the concept of "disktab" is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that >it is not possible to determine the disk size from the controller, >and it assumes uniform boundry recording for seek optimization. Well, it isn't always possible. It fails for old MFM drives and for floppies (floppies may be unformatted, or formatted with a nonstandard number of sectors/track ...). /etc/disktab is still useful for holding the defaults for such mouldy drives. >The seek optimization is, in reality, useless because ZBR media >makes it very difficult (without SCSI II extended queries) to >determine the real cylinder boundries to do the optimization. The old drives don't use ZBR. The optimization is broken in another way for floppies - since the number of sectors/cylinder is only one or wwo times larger than the smallest possible (ufs) block size and not a multiple of the block size, many blocks span cylinder boundaries. >This baically leaves default sector sparing settings, sector counts >designed to be on (no longer applicable) cylinder boundries, and >slice geometries that should be interactively determined instead >of frozen in an obsolete data file. >The disktab should go. I see that you have sold your stock of ESDI drives :-). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 19:12:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA00787 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA00732 for hackers; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:12:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199603210312.TAA00732@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: subscription error [again] grrr.... To: hackers Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:11:59 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk after tonight's subscription of freebsd-hackers to itself. i have added code to majordomo to prevent this from happening again. please disregard the subscription announcement, it has been removed already. -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 19:30:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA01867 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA01860 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA12579 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:30:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603210330.TAA12579@precipice.shockwave.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: real time interrupts in FreeBSD? Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:30:14 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've got a need for a kernel driver to go to sleep for a number of MS and then be awoken by an interrupt. Timing is critical, so I can't just tsleep and get rescheduled later, and I don't have hardware of my own to generate the interrupt. Therfore, I need to get a free CTC register, program it up, and have it generate an interrupt that I can service in the device driver. Does anyone have any suggestions/ideas/help/pointers on how to do this. I've never done this kind of stuff with PC hardware before, so I don't even know where to start looking. Thanks, Paul From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 19:38:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA02421 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA02409 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.6.12/1.2) id UAA19734 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:38:14 -0700 From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199603210338.UAA19734@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: Welcome to freebsd-hackers (fwd) To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:38:13 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmmmm... is this the beginning of another round of list trouble? It seems that Majordomo@FreeBSD.org said: > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Wed Mar 20 20:33:54 1996 > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:28:41 -0800 (PST) > Message-Id: <199603210128.RAA22883@freefall.freebsd.org> > To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org > From: Majordomo@FreeBSD.org > Subject: Welcome to freebsd-hackers > Reply-To: Majordomo@FreeBSD.org > Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org > X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Precedence: bulk > > -- > > Welcome to the freebsd-hackers mailing list! > > If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, > you can send mail to "Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG" with the following command > in the body of your email message: > > unsubscribe freebsd-hackers freebsd-hackers From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 21:15:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA20869 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20847 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA22241; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:13:18 +1100 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:13:18 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603210513.QAA22241@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, pst@shockwave.com Subject: Re: real time interrupts in FreeBSD? Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I've got a need for a kernel driver to go to sleep for a number of MS >and then be awoken by an interrupt. Timing is critical, so I can't just >tsleep and get rescheduled later, and I don't have hardware of my own to >generate the interrupt. >Therfore, I need to get a free CTC register, program it up, and have it >generate an interrupt that I can service in the device driver. It isn't easy (on i386/isa..pci systems): - there is no free CTC register. You would have to multiplex an existing one. This isn't easy because people would be annoyed if you messed up the accuracy of the existing counter by more than a few usec, and it takes a few usec just to program the counter. - only one CTC generates interrupts. I lied in the previous gotcha. The speaker CTC is often free, but it isn't very useful because it doesn't generate interrupts. One good use for it might be to keep track of jitter introduced by reprogramming the main CTC. - FreeBSD isn't a real time system. You have to be prepared to deal with a worst-case interrupt latency of 20 msec even on a P133 or do more work to minimise the latency. (I'm still trying to track down what causes a 5 (?) msec clock interrupt latency. I found what caused 20+ msec clock interrupt latency. It was a local experiment that that sometimes increased clock interrupt latency to softclock interrupt latency.) If you only need 1 msec resolution, then speeding up the standard clock interrupt frequency to 1000 Hz should work OK except for the interrupt latency problem. This is already supported for one driver at a time. The pcaudio driver uses it to speed up the clock to 16000 Hz. This is too fast to run for long, but 1000 Hz is slow enough to work reasonably even on slow 386's. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 21:38:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA22325 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:38:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA22306 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id VAA06127 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:38:27 -0800 Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA11050; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:14:55 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603210544.QAA11050@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: User level threads. To: darrend@novell.com (Darren R. Davis) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:14:55 +1030 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3150744E.41C67EA6@novell.com> from "Darren R. Davis" at Mar 20, 96 02:10:38 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Darren R. Davis stands accused of saying: > > No, I haven't read the FAQ or researched this out. I guess I am looking > for the quick answer. I have need of a user-level threads library. Is > there a defacto standard in the BSD community? What's the current > solution to this problem? FreeBSD-current has pthreads and a thread-safe libc. > Darren R. Davis -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 21:44:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA23735 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA23720 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA03312; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:43:47 -0800 Message-Id: <199603210543.VAA03312@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:24:49 GMT." <13152.827349889@critter.tfs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:43:47 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Poul-Henning Kamp said: > > Can we STOP THIS THREAD NOW ????? > > It has NOTHING to do with FreeBSD, whatsoever!! > > Thankyou! Nope , the topic also belongs on this list . I do admit that we have been talking a lot about ISDN yet there is no real FreeBSD ISDN support in the US. As part of this discussion an alternative solution for high speed networking to the home ADSL or HDSL solutions surface . Perhaps what we shall start doing is posting on the freebsd newsgroup in order to alleviate the bandwith on this mailing list. At any rate, I don't mind at all posting on the net and yes I realiaze to others hate usenet;however, we should have a vehicle to communicate about key peripheral issues concerning FreeBSD so far the best I can think of is the freebsd newsgroup. How are you connected to the net via a 14.4kbaud modem? Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 22:14:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA26240 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from neon.Glock.COM (root@neon.glock.com [198.82.228.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA26235 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mmead@localhost) by neon.Glock.COM (8.7.4/8.7.3) id BAA01153; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:09:32 -0500 (EST) From: "matthew c. mead" Message-Id: <199603210609.BAA01153@neon.Glock.COM> Subject: Re: User level threads. To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:09:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: darrend@novell.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603210544.QAA11050@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Mar 21, 96 04:14:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > Darren R. Davis stands accused of saying: > > No, I haven't read the FAQ or researched this out. I guess I am looking > > for the quick answer. I have need of a user-level threads library. Is > > there a defacto standard in the BSD community? What's the current > > solution to this problem? > FreeBSD-current has pthreads and a thread-safe libc. Where can pthreads be found? -matt -- Matthew C. Mead mmead@Glock.COM http://www.Glock.COM/~mmead/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 22:24:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA26971 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (omega.physik.fu-berlin.de [130.133.3.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA26966 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mordillo (graichen.dialup.fu-berlin.de [160.45.217.183]) by omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id HAA14061 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:24:35 +0100 (MET) Received: (from news@localhost) by mordillo (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA04177; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:12:26 +0100 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Path: graichen From: graichen@omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (Thomas Graichen) Newsgroups: local.freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD Date: 20 Mar 1996 19:12:25 GMT Organization: his FreeBSD box :-) Lines: 18 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4iplap$41i@mordillo.physik.fu-berlin.de> References: <199603191935.MAA24490@phaeton.artisoft.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.physik.fu-berlin.de X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert (terry@lambert.org) wrote: : > I heard from Thomas Graichen that the mathematica : > floating licence manager does not work correctly with : > FreeBSD. : This is (was?) the problem with the IBCS2 WordPerfect. I thought : that it was fixed (wasn't it a NULL valued timeval struct or something?). terry you are confusing the right scrollbar of netscape with the licencemanager of word perfect ... :-) t -- thomas graichen graichen@mail.physik.fu-berlin.de graichen@FreeBSD.org perfection is reached, not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away antoine de saint-exupery From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 22:24:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA27011 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (omega.physik.fu-berlin.de [130.133.3.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA26994 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mordillo (graichen.dialup.fu-berlin.de [160.45.217.183]) by omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id HAA14148 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:24:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from news@localhost) by mordillo (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA04187; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:15:55 +0100 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Path: graichen From: graichen@omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (Thomas Graichen) Newsgroups: local.freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: Can we run Solaris binaries? Date: 20 Mar 1996 19:15:54 GMT Organization: his FreeBSD box :-) Lines: 25 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4iplha$41i@mordillo.physik.fu-berlin.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.physik.fu-berlin.de X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jake Hamby (jehamby@date.sci.csupomona.edu) wrote: : I know this has been covered before, but what is the status (as of : -current) for running SVR4 ELF binaries under FreeBSD? The reason I ask : is that I just ordered a copy of Solaris 2.5 for x86 (at the low low : academic discount price of $119), basically for the goodies (Motif, CDE, : Deskset tools, WABI, Display Postscript, XGL/XIL, etc..), which : ultimately I would like to run under FreeBSD. If I copy all the shared : libraries and the applications to my FreeBSD partition, what are the : chances that I can run them in ELF emulation mode? : If this doesn't work, that is one area I would like to try to hack on, : especially since we can already run Linux AND FreeBSD ELF binaries, and, : for my purposes, I won't need to emulate the shared libraries. Comments? would be worth to look at NetBSD - i think they are getting forward step by step in running solaris/x86 binaries - maybe you may get some of their ideas to FreeBSD :-) t -- thomas graichen graichen@mail.physik.fu-berlin.de graichen@FreeBSD.org perfection is reached, not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away antoine de saint-exupery From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 22:37:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA28206 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA28187 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA11488; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:21:48 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603210651.RAA11488@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: User level threads. To: mmead@Glock.COM (matthew c. mead) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:21:47 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, darrend@novell.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603210609.BAA01153@neon.Glock.COM> from "matthew c. mead" at Mar 21, 96 01:09:31 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk matthew c. mead stands accused of saying: > > > FreeBSD-current has pthreads and a thread-safe libc. > > Where can pthreads be found? Hmm, immediate inspection only finds /usr/include/pthread.h and the libc_r (reentrant aka. thread-safe) libc. John Birrel (one l? two?) should be responding to this soon 8) IIRC, it's his work. > Matthew C. Mead -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 22:40:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA28392 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA28382 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA13682; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:36:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603210636.WAA13682@precipice.shockwave.com> To: Bruce Evans cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: real time interrupts in FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:13:18 +1100." <199603210513.QAA22241@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:36:45 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thanks much, your and Julian's message have got me going. I'm going to try to live with 1ms clocks and see how that works (maybe I can raise it once I get good statistics). I need this magic delay anywhere from 4 to 80 times a second (depending upon the size of the frame I'm downloading from the camera). Do you feel it's better to acquire timer 0 once, set my 1ms interrupt rate, and leave the ms timer running until the camera device is no longer open, or do you think that when I need to download a frame, I should switch the clock rate, do my wait, restore the clock rate, and go on? One would have me changing the timer rate up to 80 times a second, which will make keeping accurate time on the box particulary nasty, the other will put the box into 1ms timer resolution mode, potentially for LONG periods of time, and therfore waste a fair bit of CPU in interrupt processing. Both are bad situations. Oh for the want of another CTC hooked up to an interrupt line. :-( From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 23:05:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA29355 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:05:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from unicorn.ww.net (root@WildWind-TS-28k.Simferopol.ww.net [193.124.73.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA29341 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:05:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alexis@localhost) by unicorn.ww.net (8.6.12/alexis 2.5) id KAA02487 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:04:00 +0300 Message-Id: <199603210704.KAA02487@unicorn.ww.net> Subject: cvs tree again To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:04:00 +0300 (MSK) From: "Alexis Yushin" Reply-To: alexis@ww.net (Alexis Yushin) X-Office-Phone: +380 65 2 26.1410 X-Home-Phone: +380 65 2 27.0747 X-NIC-Handle: AY23 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, What I'd like to do is to have current or stable or a mix of them with my modifications. Jordan said once that this is possible with the whole cvs tree supped, I have it now and would like to listen to your comments once again, because I cannot find that letter. alexis -- Is everybody in? Is everybody in? The ceremony is about to begin... From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 23:35:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA02935 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA02925 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id IAA06680; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:15:23 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by gun.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA25859; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:07:04 +0100 (MET) From: Andreas Klemm Message-Id: <199603210707.IAA25859@gun.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:07:04 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603202044.MAA05712@kachina.jetcafe.org> from Dave Hayes at "Mar 20, 96 12:44:16 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Andreas Klemm writes: > >Well, although I knew directly, that I have to fiddle around with > >disklabel, I'd suggest to people like you, to first do the most > >obviuos thing ... check the manpages. > > I *did*. Ok ;-) I only wanted to say, that it's possible to add a 2nd hd ;-) Even if this method via disktab is a bit outdated. But it works. > But sysinstall doesn't *use* disktab...at least from what I > could figure out. Even if it does (hidden in there somewhere), > it sure doesn't leave an entry in the table after it is done. You seem to be right here. I didn't know better, sorry. [ concerning verbose boot messages ] boot -v does report SCSI geometry, too. New kernel isn't necessary. > >Note, that I now have to swap areas for delayed paging, it's > >nice to distribute the swap load to two disks: > > Do you have metrics for this that I can duplicate? I did already ... But here the whole cake: /dev/sd0s3b none swap sw 0 0 /dev/sd1b none swap sw 0 0 /dev/sd0a / ufs rw 1 1 /dev/sd0s3d /local ufs rw 1 1 /dev/sd0s3e /www ufs rw 1 1 /dev/sd0s3f /news ufs rw 1 1 /dev/sd0s3g /var ufs rw 1 1 /dev/sd0s3h /usr ufs rw 1 1 /dev/sd1a /rel ufs rw 1 1 proc /proc procfs rw 0 0 /dev/sd0s3b /tmp mfs rw 0 0 /dev/sd0s1 /dos msdos rw,noauto 0 0 /dev/cd0a /cdrom cd9660 ro,noauto 0 0 /dev/fd0a /disk/a msdos rw,noauto 0 0 /dev/fd0a /disk/b ufs rw,noauto 0 0 You can add as many swap spaces as you like and they will be used. > Only if you can tell me why fdisk would NOT work in a given > situation. That's where I stumble. Do that, and I'll write > this up for the handbook. Best would be to wait for the real solution after reading Terry's comments... Andreas /// -- andreas@knobel.gun.de /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ $$ Support Unix - aklemm@wup.de $$ pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< "Ich bleibe bei der Aussage und trotze den Flames. :-)" Ulli Horlacher 02/96 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 20 23:35:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA02992 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA02981 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id IAA06655; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:15:17 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by gun.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA25788; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:53:08 +0100 (MET) From: Andreas Klemm Message-Id: <199603210653.HAA25788@gun.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:53:08 +0100 (MET) Cc: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603202022.NAA27703@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 20, 96 01:22:29 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > ... > > disklabel(5) - disk pack label > > disklabel(8) - read and write disk pack label > > disktab(5) - disk description file > > ... > > Stop right there. > > the concept of "disktab" is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that > it is not possible to determine the disk size from the controller, > and it assumes uniform boundry recording for seek optimization. [...] But then I really have no idea, too, how to add a 2nd drive. Ok, you are right with your statements. But is there currently another way, to add a 2nd disk ? > The disktab should go. Ok, would be fine, but what other way works *now* ? Regards Andreas /// -- andreas@knobel.gun.de /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ $$ Support Unix - aklemm@wup.de $$ pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< "Ich bleibe bei der Aussage und trotze den Flames. :-)" Ulli Horlacher 02/96 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 00:18:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA06874 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA06868 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA23719; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:17:59 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Hayes cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:06:12 PST." <199603202106.NAA05989@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:17:59 -0800 Message-ID: <23717.827396279@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The free stuff is guaranteed not to be affected by marketing hype, > the frail whims of a tyrant overlord CEO, or a big mass communications > company's desire for profit. Well, at least you're sympathetic to the basic ideals. I suppose there's still hope for you after all.. :-) > Look, I'm sorry I got pissed. Can I be human and get pissed off at > losing a man month of work because sysinstall doesn't know the > difference between its disks? You're allowed to be human, that goes without saying. You're also allowed to be pissed. But please also realize that we're *very* overworked here and we're not exactly always inclined to be generous when we feel that someone is abusing us - the paid abuse is bad enough! This is not about needing "validation of our altruism" as you say, this is simply an admonition to "be nice!" if you want our help. Everything else I said could easily be boiled down to that one simple guideline. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 00:38:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA07915 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA07888 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA00354; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:37:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603210837.AAA00354@precipice.shockwave.com> To: bde@freebsd.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org, jmz@freebsd.org Subject: modloaded block/char device drivers Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:37:51 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I've succesfully gotten the qcam driver to work as a modloaded device. Some notes from the experience: (a) calling dev_attach() from a modloaded device panics the system. I have not even attempted to mess with this yet, but it can be trivially reproduced by removing the #ifndef ACTUALL_LKM_NOT_KERNEL wrappers around the call in qcam.c. It panics with a kernel page fault, but the current calling chain did /not/ include any of the qcam routines in the stack frame. I just found this by scratching my head and looking to see what I did that the joystick routine didn't do. (b) I was forced to manually call qcam_registerdev() which is the code that attaches the driver's cdevsw structure to the rest of the kernel. Without this, of course, devices are not reachable via their inodes. I feel that it's not proper for the LKM _load function to be doing this. This really should be done as part of the LKM load process since you already have the major number and the pointer to the structure passed in. (c) LKMs for device drivers with hardware that is not at a fixed address (e.g. the joystick) or completely auto-scanable are really kludgy right now. There's no easy way, other than editing the driver source, to say: "Hey, I want the xxx driver, and I want it to look for the device over here." I was thinking of kludging something together to make auto-scanning work for the qcam driver, but that would remove the pressure to deal with this properly. :-) The joys of early adoption. In any case, a lot of this is judgement call stuff, so please tell me which you'd like me to file PR's on and which you think I'm wrong in understanding. Paul From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 00:55:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA08621 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA08614 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0tzftN-0003xDC; Thu, 21 Mar 96 00:38 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA14169; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:00:22 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISDN: "modem" or board? (Was: Microsoft "Get ISDN"?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:43:47 PST." <199603210543.VAA03312@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:00:21 +0000 Message-ID: <14167.827391621@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>> Poul-Henning Kamp said: > > > > Can we STOP THIS THREAD NOW ????? > > > > It has NOTHING to do with FreeBSD, whatsoever!! > > > > Thankyou! > > Nope, [...] Can you at least move it to isp@freebsd.org then ??? > How are you connected to the net via a 14.4kbaud modem? > As it happens to be: Via ISDN! -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 01:15:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA09986 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA09974 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA16332; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:14:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199603210914.BAA16332@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: "JULIAN Elischer" cc: andreas@knobel.gun.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:14:44 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "JULIAN Elischer" writes: >> But the problem is, fdisk doesn't seem to enable disklabel to >> do it's job. >can you say more? did you try rebooting between the two? Whoa. No. Is -that- it? The magic bullet I have been looking for? >> >Note, that I now have to swap areas for delayed paging, it's >> >nice to distribute the swap load to two disks: >I hope neither swap is at the front of a disk Why? ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 01:59:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA13690 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA13684 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id CAA29411; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:52:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603210952.CAA29411@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: andreas@gun.de (Andreas Klemm) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:52:33 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603210653.HAA25788@gun.de> from "Andreas Klemm" at Mar 21, 96 07:53:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > But then I really have no idea, too, how to add a 2nd drive. > Ok, you are right with your statements. But is there currently > another way, to add a 2nd disk ? > > > The disktab should go. > > Ok, would be fine, but what other way works *now* ? Uh, the one in the post I replied to, and the one in the handbook, of course. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 02:00:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA13980 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA13974 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id CAA29420; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:54:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603210954.CAA29420@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD To: graichen@omega.physik.fu-berlin.de (Thomas Graichen) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:54:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <4iplap$41i@mordillo.physik.fu-berlin.de> from "Thomas Graichen" at Mar 20, 96 07:12:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Terry Lambert (terry@lambert.org) wrote: > : > I heard from Thomas Graichen that the mathematica > : > floating licence manager does not work correctly with > : > FreeBSD. > > : This is (was?) the problem with the IBCS2 WordPerfect. I thought > : that it was fixed (wasn't it a NULL valued timeval struct or something?). > > terry you are confusing the right scrollbar of netscape with the > licencemanager of word perfect ... :-) You're right. The Netscape problem was the ull time parameter. I remember a commit for the WP license manager, though.... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 02:01:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA14122 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA14110 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id CAA29401; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:51:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603210951.CAA29401@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:51:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: andreas@knobel.gun.de, terry@lambert.org, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603210258.NAA15921@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Mar 21, 96 01:58:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Stop right there. > > >the concept of "disktab" is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that > >it is not possible to determine the disk size from the controller, > >and it assumes uniform boundry recording for seek optimization. > > Well, it isn't always possible. It fails for old MFM drives and for > floppies (floppies may be unformatted, or formatted with a nonstandard > number of sectors/track ...). /etc/disktab is still useful for holding > the defaults for such mouldy drives. Yick. Formatting should take care of this... the floppy driver should auto-detect format. The format has to be specified and done seperately anyway. The driver for old MFM drives should read the CMOS drive table. > >The seek optimization is, in reality, useless because ZBR media > >makes it very difficult (without SCSI II extended queries) to > >determine the real cylinder boundries to do the optimization. > > The old drives don't use ZBR. The optimization is broken in another way > for floppies - since the number of sectors/cylinder is only one or wwo > times larger than the smallest possible (ufs) block size and not a > multiple of the block size, many blocks span cylinder boundaries. > > >This baically leaves default sector sparing settings, sector counts > >designed to be on (no longer applicable) cylinder boundries, and > >slice geometries that should be interactively determined instead > >of frozen in an obsolete data file. > > >The disktab should go. > > I see that you have sold your stock of ESDI drives :-). No, but I see that the slice code forces a translated world view (fake cylinder boundries) on me pretty much anyway, unless I go to an extrordinary amount of effort. Now that you mention it, I would like to see code written for ZBR drives, at least the ones that could be queried with SCSI II. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 02:02:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA14275 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA14266 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id CAA29454; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:56:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603210956.CAA29454@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: real time interrupts in FreeBSD? To: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:56:36 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603210330.TAA12579@precipice.shockwave.com> from "Paul Traina" at Mar 20, 96 07:30:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've got a need for a kernel driver to go to sleep for a number of MS > and then be awoken by an interrupt. Timing is critical, so I can't just > tsleep and get rescheduled later, and I don't have hardware of my own to > generate the interrupt. > > Therfore, I need to get a free CTC register, program it up, and have it > generate an interrupt that I can service in the device driver. > > Does anyone have any suggestions/ideas/help/pointers on how to do this. > I've never done this kind of stuff with PC hardware before, so I don't > even know where to start looking. Rewrite the timer code to provide reschedulable one-shots. This means moving the TOD clock (lbolt/HZ) to 64 or 128 and taking over the RT clock for use in the one-shot. The fix was first described in 1994 (by me) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 02:21:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA16413 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA16386 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA15353; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:20:49 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA20948; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:20:48 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id KAA12350; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:51:44 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603210951.KAA12350@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:51:43 +0100 (MET) Cc: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) In-Reply-To: <199603202036.MAA05598@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 20, 96 12:36:29 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Dave Hayes wrote: > >fdisk is far from being optimal -- but what exactly ``doesn't work > >reliably''? > > I have found that I can Fdisk a disk, but subsequent disklabel will > refuse to write a label that the OS can read. How did you write it? disklabel -B -r -w sd1s1 foobar should work. For first-time initialization, the ``-r'' is mandatory. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 02:22:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA16631 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:22:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA16623 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:22:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA15359; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:20:50 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA20949; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:20:50 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id KAA12368; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:56:09 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603210956.KAA12368@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:56:08 +0100 (MET) Cc: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) In-Reply-To: <199603202044.MAA05712@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 20, 96 12:44:16 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Dave Hayes wrote: > >One look in /etc/disktab shows you what to do next, or not :-> > > But sysinstall doesn't *use* disktab... Right. It doesn't. > >If you don't get the geometry of your SCSI disk, then please > >compile your kernel with the option 'SCSI_REPORT_GEOMETRY' > > Hmm. Why isn't the default kernel configured to do this? > I knew not about this option, which makes sense. Andreas was wrong here. Fdisk needs the geometry the BIOS is using -- not the geometry the disk claims to be. (The latter is largely irrelevant, that's why it's hidden by default. Anyways, it cannot be expressed in plain C/H/S for any modern disk.) Disklabel does almost ignore any geometry value at all. Newfs uses a faked geometry of 4096 blocks per cylinder by default, since that proved to be more effective for modern disks. (``Real'' disks like Syquest etc. are the exception these days.) All you really ought to know is the overall number of sectors. It is reported for ESDI, IDE, and SCSI disks at boot time. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 02:44:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA18004 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.com (hda.com [199.232.40.182]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA17936 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id FAA13688; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 05:43:28 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199603211043.FAA13688@hda.com> Subject: Re: real time interrupts in FreeBSD? To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 05:43:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, pst@shockwave.com Reply-To: hdalog@zipnet.net In-Reply-To: <199603210513.QAA22241@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Mar 21, 96 04:13:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > - FreeBSD isn't a real time system. You have to be prepared to deal with > a worst-case interrupt latency of 20 msec even on a P133 or do more > work to minimise the latency. (I'm still trying to track down what > causes a 5 (?) msec clock interrupt latency. I found what caused 20+ > msec clock interrupt latency. It was a local experiment that that > sometimes increased clock interrupt latency to softclock interrupt > latency.) To address this make sure you have a way to measure your latency. When I last played with this I used a conversion overrun on a clocked A-D board as a "missed deadline" flag, restarting the conversion in the real time tick. This was real easy - I'm sure you can also do this using clock with more work. Hopefully latency hasn't gotten much worse in the last few years - I guess I'll find out soon. BTW: With 20 msec latency how can we can keep up with 115200 input data? We're receiving about 240 characters in 20 msec at that rate. -- *** March 13, 1996: Our ISP may be GONE. You may never read this. *** *** "hda.com" connectivity is now intermittent to nonexistent *** Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 05:22:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA25562 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 05:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA25545 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 05:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id OAA22747 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:20:48 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id OAA22717 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:20:46 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id NAA13049 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:51:33 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603211251.NAA13049@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs tree again To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:51:32 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <199603210704.KAA02487@unicorn.ww.net> from "Alexis Yushin" at Mar 21, 96 10:04:00 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Alexis Yushin wrote: > What I'd like to do is to have current or stable or a mix of them > with my modifications. Jordan said once that this is possible with the > whole cvs tree supped, I have it now and would like to listen to your > comments once again, because I cannot find that letter. cvs checkout -rRELENG_2_1_0 yields you the -stable branch tree. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 05:44:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA26866 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 05:44:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA26860 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 05:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id WAA08147; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 22:44:16 +0900 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 22:44:16 +0900 Message-Id: <199603211344.WAA08147@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: pst@shockwave.com Cc: bde@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org, jmz@freebsd.org, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: dev_attach after boot (Re: modloaded block/char device drivers) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:37:51 -0800. <199603210837.AAA00354@precipice.shockwave.com> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. I'm working on PC-card driver package of FreeBSD. In article <199603210837.AAA00354@precipice.shockwave.com> pst@shockwave.com writes: >> (a) calling dev_attach() from a modloaded device panics the system. >> I have not even attempted to mess with this yet, but it can be >> trivially reproduced by removing the #ifndef ACTUALL_LKM_NOT_KERNEL >> wrappers around the call in qcam.c. It panics with a kernel page >> fault, but the current calling chain did /not/ include any of the >> qcam routines in the stack frame. I just found this by scratching >> my head and looking to see what I did that the joystick routine >> didn't do. I'm facing the same problem with pccard drivers on 2.2. When I try to enable (hotplug) Flash ATA (wdc and wd) driver or SCSI devices (cd, sd, etc.), the kernel panic()'s by kernel page fault. I found it never panics when I commented out the calls of dev_attach() in those drivers. I think that dev_attach() of 2.2 has serious bug in dynamic reconfiguration of devices (dev_attach() of 2.1 has no problem in these operations). -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 06:10:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA28124 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from dw3f.ess.harris.com (dw3f.ess.harris.com [130.41.9.242]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA28105 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from suw2k.hisd.harris.com (borg [158.147.23.50]) by dw3f.ess.harris.com (8.6.9/mdb(941103)) with SMTP id JAA27757 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:08:06 -0500 Received: by suw2k.hisd.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17547; Thu, 21 Mar 96 09:06:43 EST Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 09:06:43 EST From: jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com (James Leppek) Message-Id: <9603211406.AA17547@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: User level threads. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We have been using the mit pthreads stuff with a fair amount of success. There have been some problems: - signal handling within threads that call sleep(we had to ignore sigalrm in the sleeping thread, I think this issue may be which draft of the standard you are looking at for signal clarification) - a problem of pthreads malloc locks getting messed up and bailing when multiple threads are active and one is exiting while others are starting. Other than that it has worked fairly well right from MIT. We are using the MIT version so we can use the same code on fbsd and sunos 4.1.3 Jim Leppek > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Thu Mar 21 02:33:18 1996 > From: "matthew c. mead" > Subject: Re: User level threads. > To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) > Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:09:31 -0500 (EST) > Cc: darrend@novell.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org > X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Michael Smith writes: > > > Darren R. Davis stands accused of saying: > > > > No, I haven't read the FAQ or researched this out. I guess I am looking > > > for the quick answer. I have need of a user-level threads library. Is > > > there a defacto standard in the BSD community? What's the current > > > solution to this problem? > > > FreeBSD-current has pthreads and a thread-safe libc. > > Where can pthreads be found? > > > > -matt > > -- > Matthew C. Mead > > mmead@Glock.COM > http://www.Glock.COM/~mmead/ > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 06:43:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA29757 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:43:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA29743 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id XAA08476; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 23:43:22 +0900 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 23:43:22 +0900 Message-Id: <199603211443.XAA08476@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: pst@shockwave.com, bde@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org, jmz@freebsd.org Cc: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: dev_attach after boot (Re: modloaded block/char device drivers) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Mar 1996 22:44:16 +0900. <199603211344.WAA08147@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry! I forgot to write about important experiences. In article <199603211344.WAA08147@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp writes: >> When I try to enable (hotplug) Flash ATA (wdc and wd) driver or SCSI >> devices (cd, sd, etc.), the kernel panic()'s by kernel page fault. >> >> I found it never panics when I commented out the calls of dev_attach() >> in those drivers. Not all dynamic dev_attach() causes panic(). For example, if_ed NE2000 compatible PCMCIA Ethernet OK if_nep 3C589x PCMCIA Ethernet OK if_fe Fujitsu PCMCIA Ethernet OK wdc/wd Flash ATA / Type 3 ATA disk NG sio PCMCIA Modem OK aic/cd SCSI CDROM w/ SlimSCSI PCMCIA NG aic/sd SCSI HDD w/ SlimSCSI PCMCIA NG So, I think adding the controllers dynamically causes this panic(), but I was confused by reading that qcam has the same problem. Apparently, qcam is not controller/disk type device. Of course I read dev_attach() in kern_devconf.c and it seems to have no problem which causes such panic()'s. Currently, I'm planning to write a quick hack patch that PCMCIA dynamic device enabler never calls dev_attach() if this problem can't solved for long. Does any can guess the reason of this fatal problem? Thanks. -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 06:53:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA00371 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:53:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from novell.com (sjf-ums.sjf.novell.com [130.57.10.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA00366 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from INET-SJF-Message_Server by fromGW with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:50:19 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:58:25 -0800 From: DARREND@novell.com (Darren Davis) To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mailling list content - Reply Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert 3/20 7:23pm >>> I type on the order of 130 WPM when I get going on something. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. The trick is to not get Terry going on something. ;-) Darren R. Davis Senior Software Engineer Novell, Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 07:33:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA04259 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from clk01051.dorm.tcu.edu (CLK01051.DORM.TCU.EDU [138.237.144.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA04230 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tam@localhost) by clk01051.dorm.tcu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA00623; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:34:16 GMT Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:34:15 +0000 () From: Tam Weng Seng To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: DOSEMU Project Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To whom it may concern, My name is Tam Weng Seng, and I am a senior, Computer Science major, here at Texas Christian University, Fort Worth, Texas. I would like to know how I can become involved with the DOS emulation project. Yours Sincerely, Tam Weng Seng. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 08:13:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA15211 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from tombstone.sunrem.com (tombstone.sunrem.com [199.104.90.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA15183 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brandon@localhost) by tombstone.sunrem.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA02250; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:13:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:13:28 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: majordomo fixes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Its rather easy to hack on majordomo so that it is a little more sensitive to usernames. The easiest fix is to have it require usenames to have an '@' character. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 08:46:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA23204 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:46:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23188 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA00474; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:46:00 -0800 (PST) To: "Garrett A. Wollman" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bin/1094: tzsetup is broken In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:12:05 EST." <9603211612.AA17380@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:46:00 -0800 Message-ID: <472.827426760@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > < said: > > > Looking into it, but if Garrett would care to jump in I won't argue > > at all. > > Well, I wrote it, but I really am not in a position to maintain the > program. I do the timezones because I'm on the timezone > mailing-list... I was afraid you'd say that. Foo. I don't speak perl, and it's clear that menus.c is being created incorrectly now or at least the code that interprets the structures it spits out is going into space. I guess if we can't find someone else to adopt it then I'll nuke it and start over - this is one case where it'd be easier for me to simply re-write the code than try and figure yours out. I've cc'd this to -hackers to see if anyone wants to adopt tzsetup - I'm going to ship it as broken (with a note to that effect) on the SNAP CDROM since I've already pushed that back a couple of weeks now and I'd like to get it off my plate. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:02:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA27223 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:02:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA27200 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA13547; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:04:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:04:31 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603211704.KAA13547@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Brandon Gillespie Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: majordomo fixes In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Its rather easy to hack on majordomo so that it is a little more > sensitive to usernames. The easiest fix is to have it require usenames > to have an '@' character. Except that many of the committers are subscribed as 'local' users. This makes it easy to have all FreeBSD email come from one account, so if you happen to change locations you can easily point the .forward file to somewhere else w/out having to go through the hassle of unsubscribing and re-subscribing. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:07:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA29033 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA29019 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA10278; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:07:45 -0800 (PST) To: Nate Williams cc: ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ssh-1.2.10; ok to run? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:49:30 MST." <199603211549.IAA13334@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:07:44 -0800 Message-ID: <10263.827428064@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmm, so does that mean the next 'official' CD out of Walnut creek will > contain the old 2.1 packages and none of the new packages? I ask that > because finding out which work and which don't under 2.1.1 is going to > be a *LOT* of work (more work than you want?), so it'll be easier to > ship the old and crufty ports than to fix all the new ones. Well, not quite. I'm working right now (in case anyone had any doubts after seeing the sysinstall commits :-) on the 2.2-960321-SNAP CDROM, and my first test installations have been fairly promising, modulo the already-reported problems with tzsetup. I also grabbed the packages-current directory off of ftp.cdrom.com yesterday and burned it onto a CD so that I have it handy - I'm basically going to put everything you saw on the last CD snapshot (the one I had on freefall for awhile) on there plus the packages plus perhaps a few other last minute goodies. Then we're going to do a run of about 900 of them and make them available to developers in the next 2 weeks or so (assuming that we can get a fast turn from the production plant). Oh yeah, as usual the core team and major contributors will get freebies, though I have to say that I can't be quite so generous with this batch due to the very small run and lower profit margin, so please (not you Nate, but -hackers and -ports in general) don't deluge me with requests if all you have is a port or 10 line bug fix in there. I can afford to be generous with major releases because they're produced in about 10 times the quantity and have a much longer shelf-life. Hope everyone understands. These will be going for $24.95 for one-time purchase and $19.95 for subscription (plus the usual $5 S&H). This now ends my commercial announcement.. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:18:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA02061 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01641 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id SAA07192; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:14:20 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199603211714.SAA07192@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: New PCBRIDGE version To: hackers@freebsd.org, robertini@sns.it Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:14:19 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I believe this can be of interest to some of you, and I need some help as well. I have developed a ROMable bridge largely based on the FreeBSD's "netboot" code. It compiles under FreeBSD (i use to have the sources in /sys/i386/boot/bdg300) much like netboot, supports "ed"-type cards, and can make a bridge with up to 5 ports on a single PC. The code can be accessed from my home page, http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi Take it as an alpha version, much like -current! It works (I am connected through it at the moment), although might not be the most stable thing in the world (it has been running for a couple of hours now...). I am still doing a lot of changes to it, mostly adding features, remote control etc. The reason I am posting is that it would be extremely interesting if the bridge could support 100Mb boards. I believe it shouldn't be hard to adapt some of the if_XXX drivers of FreeBSD, but I don't have such boards available. Also, any adaptation could be used by "netboot" as well. So, is anyone interested in the project, and can help on it ? And, in any case, I'd appreciate feedback and suggestions. Luigi Some historical notes: The program is called PCBRIDGE 3.XX because it is a followup of a previous work that I did back in 1993, which was based on Vance Morrison's PCBRIDGE. The previous code was working very well (I have tens of bridges installed in my Faculty, running flawlessly since 1993) but was totally unreadable and only compiled with selected version of MASM an on selected configurations of MSDOS. Also, it only supported the SMC-Elite boards, now discontinued, so I have become unable to build new bridges and did not want to mess up with MASM and my unreadable code again:) This motivated the complete rewrite in C. ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:19:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA02532 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tombstone.sunrem.com (tombstone.sunrem.com [199.104.90.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02519 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brandon@localhost) by tombstone.sunrem.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA02429; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:19:28 -0700 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:19:27 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: majordomo fixes In-Reply-To: <199603211704.KAA13547@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > Its rather easy to hack on majordomo so that it is a little more > > sensitive to usernames. The easiest fix is to have it require usenames > > to have an '@' character. > > Except that many of the committers are subscribed as 'local' users. > This makes it easy to have all FreeBSD email come from one account, so > if you happen to change locations you can easily point the .forward file > to somewhere else w/out having to go through the hassle of unsubscribing > and re-subscribing. Then they are already in the mail file, and majordomo doesn't care, or they can be added/removed by hand, as the need arises. I have a majordomo server which serves 3600 addresses which does this, and has local addresses. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:24:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA04104 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA04091 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id QAA17817; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:04:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603210004.QAA17817@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: User level threads. To: darrend@novell.com (Darren R. Davis) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:04:49 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3150744E.41C67EA6@novell.com> from "Darren R. Davis" at Mar 20, 96 02:10:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk in -current there is a pthreads "based" threads package.. cd /usr/src/lib/libc_r make make install then link with -lc_r to get access to 1/ a thread safe libc 2/ things such as: pthread_fork() etc... as I said.. this is in -current (2.2 series) not -stable (2.1 series) > > No, I haven't read the FAQ or researched this out. I guess I am looking > for the quick answer. I have need of a user-level threads library. Is > there a defacto standard in the BSD community? What's the current > solution to this problem? > > -- > Darren R. Davis > Senior Software Engineer > Novell, Inc. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:25:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA04162 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA04121 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id OAA17542; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:27:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603202227.OAA17542@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:27:00 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: andreas@knobel.gun.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603202044.MAA05712@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 20, 96 12:44:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Andreas Klemm writes: > >Well, although I knew directly, that I have to fiddle around with > >disklabel, I'd suggest to people like you, to first do the most > >obviuos thing ... check the manpages. > > I *did*. > > >One look in /etc/disktab shows you what to do next, or not :-> > > But sysinstall doesn't *use* disktab...at least from what I > could figure out. Even if it does (hidden in there somewhere), > it sure doesn't leave an entry in the table after it is done. > > >If you don't get the geometry of your SCSI disk, then please > >compile your kernel with the option 'SCSI_REPORT_GEOMETRY' In fact this is WRONG WRONG WRONG you should use the BIOS trnaslated geometry if you want to ever boot of this drive.... (real geometry is only good if the BIOS will never look at the drive) > > Hmm. Why isn't the default kernel configured to do this? > I knew not about this option, which makes sense. It's not useful info.. ignore it.. use the -v boot option to see the BIOS geometries but remember that freeBSD has no way of knowing which geometry coresponds to which disk, which is why it can't use that info easily.. > > But the problem is, fdisk doesn't seem to enable disklabel to > do it's job. can you say more? did you try rebooting between the two? > > >Note, that I now have to swap areas for delayed paging, it's > >nice to distribute the swap load to two disks: I hope neither swap is at the front of a disk From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:25:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA04196 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA04157 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id OAA17486; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:13:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603202213.OAA17486@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:13:57 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603202106.NAA05989@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 20, 96 01:06:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok timew to end the name-calling... let's get down to teh technical quesions.. > > > Fine, I suck. Now can you point me in the direction of why fdisk > fails? > fdisk is a very simple program.. it opens a file that happens to be a disk raw device, and does an ioctl to get some starting info on that disk. It then reads the first 512 bytes of the file and interprets it as a structure... it goes through an edit phase, that allows you to change values in that structure, and then writes it back to the disk.. The only thing that needs any special knowledge is the ioctl to try read the disklabel for the drive. As far as the structure is concerned: it's an array of 4 structs, one per slice each struct has a start and size field, as well as sec/cyl/head versions of the start and end, calculated out using the BIOS idea of the geometry.. As FreeBSD can't easily tell what the BIOS geometry is, it will hope that the disklabel has the same geo, but will ask you to confirm or correct it.. it really IS a very simple program... if it went wrong, it suggests that maybe the wrong device was pointed to? it will happily put a partition table on any device, even the wrong one.... As you haven't told us what goes wrong, I can't begin to guess what the probelm was... julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:25:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA04383 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA04193 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id MAA17267; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:30:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603202030.MAA17267@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: PPP bonding .. To: imb@scgt.oz.au (michael butler) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:30:46 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: lehey.pad@sni.de, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603201527.CAA29139@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> from "michael butler" at Mar 21, 96 02:27:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've seen sources to do bonded ppp. I'm going to try get the author to contribute it back.. > > > Speaking of bonding .. what's needed to allow two modem-based PPP interfaces > link to the same destination ? As far as I can tell .. > [...] > > Linux seems to have this capability .. do we want (need ?) to be compatible > with them ? > > michael > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:52:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA11361 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA11355 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA00339; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:43:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603211743.KAA00339@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:43:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: julian@ref.tfs.com, andreas@knobel.gun.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603210914.BAA16332@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 21, 96 01:14:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I hope neither swap is at the front of a disk > > Why? There are known problems with crashdumping, if enabled, with partitions that start at offset 0 in a labelled section (and the first slice on the disk is at offset 0). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 09:54:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA11705 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA11697 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA00360; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:49:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603211749.KAA00360@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: mailling list content - Reply To: DARREND@novell.com (Darren Davis) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:49:05 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Darren Davis" at Mar 21, 96 06:58:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>> Terry Lambert 3/20 7:23pm >>> > I type on the order of 130 WPM when I get going on something. 8-). > > The trick is to not get Terry going on something. ;-) > > Darren R. Davis > Senior Software Engineer > Novell, Inc. I see you have been promoted -- spying out technology for UnixWare are we? ...It'll never work; they won't let you make changes to the source base. You'll just have to watch us add in features and drool over them to Ted, like I did. 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 10:10:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA14128 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA14095 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA02061; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:09:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603211809.KAA02061@precipice.shockwave.com> To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) cc: bde@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org, jmz@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dev_attach after boot (Re: modloaded block/char device drivers) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 23:43:22 +0900." <199603211443.XAA08476@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:09:35 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Not all dynamic dev_attach() causes panic(). For example, if_ed NE2000 compatible PCMCIA Ethernet OK if_nep 3C589x PCMCIA Ethernet OK if_fe Fujitsu PCMCIA Ethernet OK wdc/wd Flash ATA / Type 3 ATA disk NG sio PCMCIA Modem OK aic/cd SCSI CDROM w/ SlimSCSI PCMCIA NG aic/sd SCSI HDD w/ SlimSCSI PCMCIA NG So, I think adding the controllers dynamically causes this panic(), but I was confused by reading that qcam has the same problem. Apparently, qcam is not controller/disk type device. Of course I read dev_attach() in kern_devconf.c and it seems to have no problem which causes such panic()'s. No, but the one common thread is that all of the ones that are OK register no character/block devices. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 10:59:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA18877 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18871 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA16365 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:59:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199603211859.KAA16365@austin.polstra.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: "nm -og": binutils vs. FreeBSD vs. SunOS vs. Posix Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:59:02 -0800 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I need some advice about whether something in GNU binutils-2.6 is a bug or not. It has to do with the output of "nm -og *.o". The "nm" from binutils-2.6 offers three different output formats, "bsd", "sysv", and "posix". Both the "bsd" and "posix" formats produce output like this: bar.o:00000004 T _barproc bar.o: U _printf foo.o:00000004 T _fooproc foo.o: U _printf But FreeBSD's "nm" produces output like this: bar.o: bar.o:00000004 T _barproc bar.o: U _printf foo.o: foo.o:00000004 T _fooproc foo.o: U _printf The blank lines don't matter, but the "bar.o:" lines are crucial -- our "lorder" relies on them. I checked the bsd4.4-lite2 sources, and their "lorder" is identical to ours, so I assume that their "nm" has the same behavior as ours. So, I would say that GNU's "nm" is not giving correct "bsd" output. Except ... I also tried it on a SunOS-4.1 system, and their "nm" agrees with GNU's. So I don't know whether to report a bug to GNU or not. Two questions: What do other BSD-derived systems do? And, what does Posix say about it, if anything? If SunOS is the odd man out, then I could create a fourth format "sunos", fix the "bsd" behavior, and probably get GNU to accept the changes. Opinions, please. -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 11:42:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA20291 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:42:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sxt2.space.lockheed.com (sxt2.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20283 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:42:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by sxt2.space.lockheed.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA01090; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:36:27 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:36:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh-1.2.10; ok to run? In-Reply-To: <10263.827428064@time.cdrom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan said... > I'm working right now (in case anyone had any doubts after seeing the > sysinstall commits :-) on the 2.2-960321-SNAP CDROM, and my first test > installations have been fairly promising, modulo the already-reported > problems with tzsetup. [...] Whoa. There's a new SNAP about to go online??? Is this truth you speak? The timing couldn't be better, I just CLOBBERed my hard drive... :-) Can I also safely assume this will be up for ftp shortly? I'd make a trip home and start up a new install if that was the case. If so, thanks, and I owe somebody a beer. Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 11:49:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA20591 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA20582 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03897; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:49:03 -0800 (PST) To: "Brian N. Handy" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh-1.2.10; ok to run? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:36:26 PST." Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:49:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3895.827437743@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Can I also safely assume this will be up for ftp shortly? I'd make a > trip home and start up a new install if that was the case. Should be up on ftp.freebsd.org in less than 24 hours. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 11:54:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA20902 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA20885 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA02727; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:54:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603211954.LAA02727@precipice.shockwave.com> To: freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new sup server In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:34:25 PST." Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:54:05 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If you run a mirror and are NOT on freebsd-hubs, get your butt on there please. Freefall updates its trees at 1:00, 7:00, 13:00, and 19:00 pacific time. It makes sense for other mirrors to attempt to start SUP operations at least an HOUR after Freefall /starts/ its update, to insure it has completed. sup2's schedule is currently 2:10, 8:10, 14:10, and 20:10, 4 times a day. I would suggest that we coordinate as follows, to avoid overloading the T1 to freefall: Here's my proposal, it's just a proposal, feel free to improve upon it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUP windows start 1 hour + ((your mirror number - 1) * 10 minutes). e.g. [ALL TIMES PACIFIC TIME] sup2 2:10 8;10 13:10 20:10 sup3 2:20 8:20 13:20 20:20 sup4 2:30 8:30 13:30 20:30 sup5 2:40 8:40 13:40 20:40 sup6 2:50 8:50 13:50 20:50 4 times a day may be excessive, in which case, pick 1 two or 3 times. /Preferably/ we should work with our adjacent neighbors to do the right thing. If you want to sup outside the 100 minute window (assuming 10 mirrors) then do it whenever you want. This is just to avoid contention for that precious time right after freefall does its updates. Here's an example of neighbor coordination, in the following example, sup3 and sup4 choose sup windows that would cause them to never overlap. sup2 2:10 8;10 13:10 20:10 4x sup3 2:20 13:20 2x sup4 8:30 13:30 2x sup5 2:40 8:40 20:40 3x sup6 13:50 1x ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would /strongly/ reccomend people in general avoid the "on the hour" timeslot (except for sup7). I suspect that Jordan will be trimming off sup's from non-official-mirror sites real soon now to reduce the load on freefall and the T1. Ministry of Information From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 12:03:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA21276 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA21269 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.6.12/1.2) id NAA18341 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:03:31 -0700 From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199603212003.NAA18341@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: pkg_manage buglet To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:03:31 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings! pkg_manage/pkg_ui.c(314) references $TMPDIR -- but $TMP_DIR is used on line 315! I suspect TMPDIR was desired... This was in 2.1R and appears to still be in -stable (haven't looked at -current :<) apologies for not sending a real diff but it wouldn't hurt for someone else to make sure this is the right choice... thx, --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 12:13:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA21935 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [142.77.249.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA21929 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.4/8.7.4) id PAA01411; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:13:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:13:41 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: JULIAN Elischer cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DEVFS vs "regular /dev" In-Reply-To: <199603211957.LAA19698@ref.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, JULIAN Elischer wrote: > well, not quite.. > because init tries to open some devices before the fstab is used to mount the > disks and devfs.. > > you could always alter init to directly mount /dev.... Okay, added to my list of "things to do" Marc G. Fournier | POP Mail Telnet Acct DNS Hosting System | WWW Services Database Services | Knowledge, Administrator | | Information and scrappy@ki.net | WWW: http://www.ki.net | Communications, Inc From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 12:14:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA21990 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from novell.com ([147.2.128.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA21985 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from INET-NJ-Message_Server by fromGW with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:12:02 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:20:03 -0500 From: DARREND@novell.com (Darren Davis) To: terry@lambert.org, DARREND@novell.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: mailling list content - Reply - Reply Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert 3/21 10:49am >>> I see you have been promoted -- spying out technology for UnixWare are we? ...It'll never work; they won't let you make changes to the source base. You'll just have to watch us add in features and drool over them to Ted, like I did. 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. Well actually I was not promoted, that was my position all along. Second, UnixWare is now a SCO product hence my sudden interest in FreeBSD. I have a firm belief that SCO will totally screw up everything good we achieved in UnixWare 2 (Note for the legally impaired: this is my opinion and does not reflect those of any company I happen to be working for). I am now working in the Novell Advanced File Services group, and FreeBSD makes a wonderful research system for new ideas. Darren R. Davis Senior Software Engineer Novell, Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 12:16:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA22248 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:16:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA22240 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.6.12/1.2) id NAA18982 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:16:14 -0700 From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199603212016.NAA18982@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: pkg_manage followup To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:16:13 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk While whoever :> is poking around pkg_manage/pkg_ui.c, you might want to also change the error message emitted on line 322 to indicate $tmp_dir instead of "/usr/tmp" --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 12:23:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA22685 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from melb.werple.net.au (melb.werple.net.au [203.9.190.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22680 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:23:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by melb.werple.net.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA02509 for mira!FreeBSD.org!freebsd-hackers; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 07:23:25 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199603212023.HAA02509@melb.werple.net.au> >Received: by cimaxp1.cimlogic.com.au; (5.65/1.1.8.2/10Sep95-0953AM) id AA28623; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 07:14:57 +1100 From: John Birrell Subject: Re: User level threads. To: atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@melb.werple.net.au (Michael Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 07:14:57 +1100 (EST) Cc: Glock.COM!mmead@melb.werple.net.au, atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@melb.werple.net.au, novell.com!darrend@melb.werple.net.au, FreeBSD.org!freebsd-hackers@melb.werple.net.au In-Reply-To: <199603210651.RAA11488@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Mar 21, 96 05:21:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > matthew c. mead stands accused of saying: > > > > > FreeBSD-current has pthreads and a thread-safe libc. > > > > Where can pthreads be found? > > Hmm, immediate inspection only finds /usr/include/pthread.h and the > libc_r (reentrant aka. thread-safe) libc. There is still a *lot* of work required to make all libc functions reentrant. This is because of all the static variables used. 8-(. The /usr/src/lib/lib_r directory builds libc_r from libc source, adding POSIX thread functions. pthread.h is the only header file required. Compile with -D_THREAD_SAFE and link with -nostdlib -lc_r. > > John Birrel (one l? two?) should be responding to this soon 8) IIRC, it's Two. 8-) > his work. > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ -- John Birrell CIMlogic Pty Ltd jb@cimlogic.com.au 119 Cecil Street Ph +61 3 9690 6900 South Melbourne Vic 3205 Fax +61 3 9690 6650 Australia Mob +61 18 353 137 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 12:45:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA24220 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:45:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA24215 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA19076; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:44:31 -0800 (PST) To: Don Yuniskis cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: pkg_manage buglet In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:03:31 MST." <199603212003.NAA18341@seagull.rtd.com> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:44:31 -0800 Message-ID: <19073.827441071@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk pkg_manage has been removed from -current. It's dead. Jordan > Greetings! > pkg_manage/pkg_ui.c(314) references $TMPDIR -- but $TMP_DIR is > used on line 315! I suspect TMPDIR was desired... This was in 2.1R and > appears to still be in -stable (haven't looked at -current :<) > apologies for not sending a real diff but it wouldn't hurt > for someone else to make sure this is the right choice... > thx, > --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 13:07:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA26050 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from shl.com (houws001.shl.com [159.249.47.60]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA26044 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:07:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from tbu.shl.com (gpw.tbu.shl.com) by shl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25185; Thu, 21 Mar 96 15:14:40 CST Received: from msmailgate (msmailgate.tbu.shl.com) by tbu.shl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-tbu-1) id AA02792; Thu, 21 Mar 96 16:08:55 EST Received: by msmailgate with Microsoft Mail id <3151C661@msmailgate>; Thu, 21 Mar 96 16:13:05 EST From: BUCHANAN Gardner To: "hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: I have a new driver. Want it? Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 16:13:00 EST Message-Id: <3151C661@msmailgate> Encoding: 51 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Following up to a recent exchange between Michael Smith and me which went... >> >> I have built a driver for an SMC91C92 Ethernet controller. >> It's not perfect, but it seems to work and may be of >> use to someone else. Do you want me to send it to you? >> Where do I send it? > > If you haven't received a reply yet, send a message to 'hackers@freebsd.org' > about this. It would help to know what cards (if any) the 91C92 is used > on so that this information could be propagated to the handbook. > > Also, what sort of copyright were you planning on applying to the driver? > I know this sounds stupid, but it's a very important issue 8( If you're > happy with the BSD copyright, make sure you snarf a copy of one of the > other drivers (say the 'ed' driver) and stick it at the top of all your > files... So, to help answer Mikes questions, This is a driver for SMC's 9000 series of Ethernet adapters. I have it working with my SMC91C92 equipped Ampro LittleBoard embedded PC. It is partly adapted from Erik Stahlman's Linux driver which worked with his "EFA Info*Express SVC" VLB adaptor. According to SMC's databook, it will work for the entire SMC 9xxx series which includes the 91C90, 91C92 which are ISA type deals, 91C94 which is PCMCIA and the 91C100 fast Ethernet AFA "FEAST" chips. (Ha Ha) The 91C90, 91C92 at least are single chip controllers used in things like the Ampro single board system. I talked to someone or other who said that it was used in some sort of laptop docking station (Dell maybe?) that he was using. I have no idea what, if any, other mainstream cards use these chips. This FreeBSD driver partly based on a smc9194 Linux driver by Erik Stahlman which is Copyright (C) 1996 by Erik Stahlman. Erik GPL'd his code, however there is virtually nothing left of his original work in my driver except the ideas. Unless Erik has a strong objection, my BSD driver would just carry the same copyright as the 'ed' driver as Michael suggested. So, if anyone wants a copy of the code in question I would be happy to send it along. -- Gardner Buchanan SHL Systemhouse Inc. Ottawa Branch (613) 236-6604 x5375 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 13:17:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA26962 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from tombstone.sunrem.com (tombstone.sunrem.com [199.104.90.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA26934 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brandon@localhost) by tombstone.sunrem.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02971; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:16:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:16:33 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: pkg_manage buglet In-Reply-To: <19073.827441071@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > pkg_manage has been removed from -current. It's dead. anything replace it? In general its not too useful, except for listing all existing packages, and removing them. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 13:21:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA00161 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from distortion.eng.umd.edu (distortion.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA00123 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.208]) by distortion.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA26909; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16442; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:21:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:21:03 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: hackers distribution Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There was a lot of hooraw a little while back about what should and should not be on the extra distribution you were going to bring out, but then it just disappeared from the horizon. Is it still live? Are you going to bring out an announcement about it? ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 14:07:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA18178 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:07:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sumter.awod.com (awod.com [198.81.225.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18166 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ken (tsunami.awod.com [198.81.225.31]) by sumter.awod.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA23585 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:07:38 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4b12.32.19960321220751.00664e1c@awod.com> X-Sender: klam@awod.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4b12 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:07:51 -0500 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org From: Ken Lam Subject: CDROM Recorders Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am about to order a CDROM recorder, I wanted to find which are supported under FreeBSD. I checked in the LINT, FAQ, HB, but no joys there. TIA -k From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 14:33:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA20518 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from hemi.com (hemi.com [204.132.158.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA20512 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mbarkah@localhost) by hemi.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA12557; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:32:32 -0700 From: Ade Barkah Message-Id: <199603212232.PAA12557@hemi.com> Subject: Re: ADSL To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:32:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603201903.OAA05740@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Mar 20, 96 02:03:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Lets have a show of hands of ISPs that charge $20. for 24X 7 unmetered > dial-up........ As a sample point, our rates will be $18 flat-rate for unlimited time dial-up (it is currently $15.) There are no other fees (not even sales tax.) The catch is it's dynamic ppp, so you can't run your business on it. Hundreds of other ISPs are charging similar rates. AT&T recently announced their unlimited dialup service at $19.95. We can afford this pricing the same way phone companies can afford flat rate phone service in many areas... the percentage of customers who use our service more than a couple of hours a day is relatively small. Occasionally I see someone connected for more than 24 hours (probably trying to download the entire FreeBSD or Linux distribution via a 28.8 link), but it's a miracle someone can stay up that long without U.S. West disconnecting them with their great phone lines. -Ade Barkah -------------------------------------------------------------------- Inet: mbarkah@hemi.com - HEMISPHERE ONLINE - www: -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 14:48:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA21732 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21726 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jfieber@localhost) by fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA00430; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:48:25 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:48:25 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu To: Terry Lambert cc: terry@lambert.org, rich@lamprey.utmb.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199603201727.KAA27315@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > I heard from Thomas Graichen that the mathematica > > > > floating licence manager does not work correctly with > > > > FreeBSD. > > > > > > This is (was?) the problem with the IBCS2 WordPerfect. I thought > > > that it was fixed (wasn't it a NULL valued timeval struct or something?). > > > > How recently? I have not tried running WP (the licence manager actually) > > in quite a while... > > Within the last two weeks. Now running the license manager causes a reboot with no handy diagnostic messages. :( -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 14:53:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA22084 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dima@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA22066 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:53:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603212253.OAA22066@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: new sup server To: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:53:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.org, jkh@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603211954.LAA02727@precipice.shockwave.com> from "Paul Traina" at Mar 21, 96 11:54:05 am From: dima@FreeBSD.org (Dima Ruban) X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Traina writes: > > If you run a mirror and are NOT on freebsd-hubs, get your butt on there > please. > > Freefall updates its trees at 1:00, 7:00, 13:00, and 19:00 pacific time. > It makes sense for other mirrors to attempt to start SUP operations It does make sence. I have only one question. How long does it usualy take to upgrade freefall? one hour, two, three? > at least an HOUR after Freefall /starts/ its update, to insure it has > completed. Do you think, one hour would be enough? > sup2's schedule is currently 2:10, 8:10, 14:10, and 20:10, 4 times a day. > > I would suggest that we coordinate as follows, to avoid overloading the T1 > to freefall: > > Here's my proposal, it's just a proposal, feel free to improve upon it. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > SUP windows start 1 hour + ((your mirror number - 1) * 10 minutes). > > e.g. [ALL TIMES PACIFIC TIME] > > sup2 2:10 8;10 13:10 20:10 > sup3 2:20 8:20 13:20 20:20 > sup4 2:30 8:30 13:30 20:30 > sup5 2:40 8:40 13:40 20:40 I'll set up my server to update information at 2:40 and 13:40. > sup6 2:50 8:50 13:50 20:50 > > 4 times a day may be excessive, in which case, pick 1 two or 3 times. > /Preferably/ we should work with our adjacent neighbors to do the right > thing. If you want to sup outside the 100 minute window (assuming 10 > mirrors) then do it whenever you want. This is just to avoid contention > for that precious time right after freefall does its updates. > > Here's an example of neighbor coordination, in the following example, > sup3 and sup4 choose sup windows that would cause them to never overlap. > > sup2 2:10 8;10 13:10 20:10 4x > sup3 2:20 13:20 2x > sup4 8:30 13:30 2x > sup5 2:40 8:40 20:40 3x deal. I've increased 2x -> 3x. Now I have 40 2,8,20 * * * > sup6 13:50 1x > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would /strongly/ reccomend people in general avoid the "on the hour" > timeslot (except for sup7). > > I suspect that Jordan will be trimming off sup's from non-official-mirror > sites real soon now to reduce the load on freefall and the T1. Absolutely agreed. > > Ministry of Information > -- dima From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 15:11:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA23218 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:11:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA23212 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:11:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA01013; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:01:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603212301.QAA01013@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:01:25 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, rich@lamprey.utmb.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Mar 21, 96 05:48:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > How recently? I have not tried running WP (the licence manager actually) > > > in quite a while... > > > > Within the last two weeks. > > Now running the license manager causes a reboot with no handy diagnostic > messages. :( No messages? It must be getting past the bad point to a worse point. A silent reboot happens from a triple-fault, usually. Can you buzz-loop faults in assembly to blow it out? This may not be possible if the culprit is stack corruption. I would put in: { int i; printf( "here 1\n"); for( i=0; i < 0x7fffffff; i++) /* adjust down for time*/ continue; } for a bunch of different "here" locations and see where it fails. There are probably better people to ask about debugging; I usually use printf. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 15:51:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA26545 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:51:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA26528 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA12363 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:50:47 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA28383 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:50:47 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA14666 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:47:40 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603212347.AAA14666@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:47:40 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603210951.CAA29401@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 21, 96 02:51:32 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Terry Lambert wrote: > The driver for old MFM drives should read the CMOS drive table. No such thing like a CMOS drive table. CMOS holds the drive type, but the BIOS holds the drive table. Each BIOS has got a very own idea of what a particular CMOS drive type might mean. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 16:04:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA27413 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA27395 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01346; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:04:26 -0800 (PST) To: Paul Traina cc: freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new sup server In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:54:05 PST." <199603211954.LAA02727@precipice.shockwave.com> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:04:26 -0800 Message-ID: <1344.827453066@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I suspect that Jordan will be trimming off sup's from non-official-mirror > sites real soon now to reduce the load on freefall and the T1. You suspect correctly. This is a fine proposal and I urge everyone here to heed the Call of Paul. > Ministry of Information If you really want to adopt that title, it's all yours. Just don't forget that you get to take poison with the rest of us, come the bitter end. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 16:06:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA27539 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA27532 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01465; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:06:19 -0800 (PST) To: Chuck Robey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: hackers distribution In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:21:03 EST." Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:06:19 -0800 Message-ID: <1463.827453179@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > There was a lot of hooraw a little while back about what should and > should not be on the extra distribution you were going to bring out, but > then it just disappeared from the horizon. Is it still live? Are you > going to bring out an announcement about it? Uh "extra distribution?" Refresh my memory please. I don't remember any recent hooraws. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 16:14:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA28055 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca [198.161.206.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA28035 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44167; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:13:21 -0700 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:13:20 -0700 (MST) From: Ronald Grootkarzyn To: fbsd-ports , fbsd-hackers , fbsd-bugs Subject: Invalid Type '->' wrt GCC/ctype.h Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To those that may know; Please consider and reply, if possible, with RFI's or solutions to the following complation merror message; I run a custom FBSD 2.10 kernel (sound for sbpro & SYS V support) on a 486 pc compatible. When compiling the following programs; xlockmore 3.7 and mSQL 1.0.6+, I receive the following error message from ctype.h .../ctype.h:147: invalid type arguement of '->' in the following functions; __istype, __tolower, __toupper. I have successfully compiled xlockmore from FBSD 2.0 forward and have compiled mSQL on FBSD 2.0. Thank-you in advance for considering these questions, which are beyond my very limited C programming experience. Respectfully ron Ronald Grootkarzyn email: ron@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca 4013 - 114 Avenue phone: (403) 479-2672 Edmonton, AB, T5W 0S9 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 16:15:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA28161 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA28142 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01613; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:14:06 -0800 (PST) To: DARREND@novell.com (Darren Davis) cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: mailling list content - Reply - Reply In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:20:03 EST." Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:14:06 -0800 Message-ID: <1611.827453646@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > UnixWare is now a SCO product hence my sudden interest in FreeBSD. I have > a firm belief that SCO will totally screw up everything good we achieved > in UnixWare 2 (Note for the legally impaired: this is my opinion and does > not reflect those of any company I happen to be working for). I am now My, that's awfully cynical of you! I dunno, but before I'd allow myself to get worried about something like this I'd have to first feel that the company in question (SCO) had something of a track record for screwing up previous releases of UNIX. I mean, SCO has long been a leader in the UNIX market, bringing us ground-breaking products like ODT 2.0 and 3.0, then there were their efforts to bring POSIX and X/Open compliance to the header files, and on top of that you've got their long-standing, stalwart support of SVR3 even after many said that it was a dead code base. They even had the courage to unbundle their compilers long before anyone else did. Gee, what ever are you worried about? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 16:15:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA28167 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA28145 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01631; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:15:34 -0800 (PST) To: Brandon Gillespie cc: FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: pkg_manage buglet In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:16:33 MST." Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:15:34 -0800 Message-ID: <1629.827453734@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Not yet, though I'm waiting for some further improvements to the package installer in sysinstall before breaking it out into a stand-alone utility, or at the least giving sysinstall the ability to take command-line args for invoking various internal operations directly. Jordan > On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > pkg_manage has been removed from -current. It's dead. > > anything replace it? In general its not too useful, except for listing > all existing packages, and removing them. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 16:36:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA29823 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29818 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.208]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA18527; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:36:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA16864; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:36:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:35:58 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: hackers distribution In-Reply-To: <1463.827453179@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > There was a lot of hooraw a little while back about what should and > > should not be on the extra distribution you were going to bring out, but > > then it just disappeared from the horizon. Is it still live? Are you > > going to bring out an announcement about it? > > Uh "extra distribution?" Refresh my memory please. I don't remember > any recent hooraws. I don't know what you call it, but it's that distribution that was supposed to have the full current CVS tree in it. I never heard any announcement that it was available, or any timing. I don't even know what to call it, when I call WC and order the sub. It was supposed to be the limited distribution, and then everyone started asking for their favorite goodies, that was the hooraw I was referring to. What does WC call it? Is it available? ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 16:37:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA29878 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from melb.werple.net.au (melb.werple.net.au [203.9.190.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29868 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by melb.werple.net.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09310; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:36:59 +1100 (EST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id QAA20290; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:35:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603220035.QAA20290@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: User level threads. To: cimaxp1!jb@melb.werple.net.au (John Birrell) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:35:42 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@melb.werple.net.au, Glock.COM!mmead@melb.werple.net.au, novell.com!darrend@melb.werple.net.au, FreeBSD.org!freebsd-hackers@melb.werple.net.au In-Reply-To: <199603212023.HAA02509@melb.werple.net.au> from "John Birrell" at Mar 22, 96 07:14:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > > matthew c. mead stands accused of saying: > > > > > > > FreeBSD-current has pthreads and a thread-safe libc. > > > > > > Where can pthreads be found? > > > > Hmm, immediate inspection only finds /usr/include/pthread.h and the > > libc_r (reentrant aka. thread-safe) libc. > > There is still a *lot* of work required to make all libc functions > reentrant. This is because of all the static variables used. 8-(. > > The /usr/src/lib/lib_r directory builds libc_r from libc source, adding > POSIX thread functions. pthread.h is the only header file required. > Compile with -D_THREAD_SAFE and link with -nostdlib -lc_r. > > > > > John Birrel (one l? two?) should be responding to this soon 8) IIRC, it's > > Two. 8-) > > > his work. > > -- > > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ The reason it is nopt made by default is several-fold.. 1/ it's not complete 2/ The Documantation is not ready (so you can't see what IS complete) *hint hint hint* :) 3/ connection between this package (a pthreads VARIANT) and the original pthreads is not final. > > -- > John Birrell CIMlogic Pty Ltd > jb@cimlogic.com.au 119 Cecil Street > Ph +61 3 9690 6900 South Melbourne Vic 3205 > Fax +61 3 9690 6650 Australia > Mob +61 18 353 137 > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 16:39:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA29957 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:39:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA29951 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA06885; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:38:06 -0800 Message-Id: <199603220038.QAA06885@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: JULIAN Elischer , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DEVFS vs "regular /dev" In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:13:41 EST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:38:05 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, JULIAN Elischer wrote: > >> well, not quite.. >> because init tries to open some devices before the fstab is used to mount the >> disks and devfs.. >> >> you could always alter init to directly mount /dev.... > > Okay, added to my list of "things to do" Or you could alter the kernel to directly mount /dev. Another reason I'm pushing for this model is that I don't like the idea that the "init" program, which may not be /sbin/init, has to know about this - we'd also have to modify sysinstall, for example. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 16:55:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA00932 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA00927 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA01342; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:49:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603220049.RAA01342@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:49:06 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603212347.AAA14666@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Mar 22, 96 00:47:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The driver for old MFM drives should read the CMOS drive table. > > No such thing like a CMOS drive table. CMOS holds the drive type, but > the BIOS holds the drive table. Each BIOS has got a very own idea of > what a particular CMOS drive type might mean. CMOS drive table index, then. I remember that some BIOS' reserved CMOS space for two slots (44? 45?) to let you specify the information. AMI was one of them... In any case, a linear congruential search for the boundry conditions followed by a binary search could easily find the last sector on any device for you. This is what is done in a partition recognition TSD under Win95. In any case, it's possible to put the data there so that when the tool program issues the ioctl, the data is returned. Worst case, you use the BIOS table (or CMOS entries for the last two BIOS drive types), and you let the user override it in their config file (or better yet, via booting -v). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 17:02:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA01416 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA01409 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA07841; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:02:07 -0800 (PST) To: Chuck Robey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: hackers distribution In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:35:58 EST." Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:02:06 -0800 Message-ID: <7837.827456526@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't know what you call it, but it's that distribution that was > supposed to have the full current CVS tree in it. I never heard any Right, the SNAP CD. It's coming out shortly, as I said. > announcement that it was available, or any timing. I don't even know > what to call it, when I call WC and order the sub. Ask for the FreeBSD SNAPSHOT CDROM. They'll have to back-order it for you since they haven't even got a tracking number fo it yet. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 17:48:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA04103 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA04079 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id RAA21435 ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:45:44 -0800 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA01606; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:35:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603220135.SAA01606@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: new sup server To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:35:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: pst@shockwave.com, freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.org, jkh@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <1344.827453066@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 21, 96 04:04:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If you really want to adopt that title, it's all yours. Just don't > forget that you get to take poison with the rest of us, come the > bitter end. :-) Boo. Hiss. Bad self-referential sentence there, Jordan... stick to the puns. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 17:56:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA04729 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA04724 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA01623; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:41:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603220141.SAA01623@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD To: julian@ref.tfs.com (JULIAN Elischer) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:41:27 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jfieber@indiana.edu, rich@lamprey.utmb.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199603220126.RAA20452@ref.tfs.com> from "JULIAN Elischer" at Mar 21, 96 05:26:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I would put in: > > > > { > > int i; > > printf( "here 1\n"); > > for( i=0; i < 0x7fffffff; i++) /* adjust down for time*/ > > continue; > > } > > > that's silly, he doesn't have the source to that (I believe) Now *that's* silly. I was talking about the kernel, not the program. The bug is in the kernel if the program runs on Linux but not FreeBSD. He needs to find out which Linux system call is blowing chunks, then he needs to find which line in that call is blowing chunks, then he needs to breakpoint there with the kernel debugger and find out how many repetitions are necessary before it blows chunks, then he needs to set the breakpoint again and step through that many times minus one, and then he needs to watch it so he can see what's actually blowing chunks. And if you think that was a run-on sentence, it's because tracking a kernel bug without a dump is a run-on procedure. Further, since most of us don't have Mathematica to test with, it's probably him or no one. And running kdb is a question that's better answered by Bruce or someone else who uses the thing on a regular basis. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 18:47:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA06753 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA06748 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jfieber@localhost) by fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA01511; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 21:47:23 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 21:47:22 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu To: Terry Lambert cc: JULIAN Elischer , rich@lamprey.utmb.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199603220141.SAA01623@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I would put in: > > > > > > { > > > int i; > > > printf( "here 1\n"); > > > for( i=0; i < 0x7fffffff; i++) /* adjust down for time*/ > > > continue; > > > } > > > > > that's silly, he doesn't have the source to that (I believe) > > Now *that's* silly. I was talking about the kernel, not the program. > > The bug is in the kernel if the program runs on Linux but not FreeBSD. > > He needs to find out which Linux system call is blowing chunks, then Actually, it is license manager that comes with the SCO WordPerfect which, incidentally, works on linux but I don't think that is too relevant here. Unfortunately I don't really have the time to dive into kernel debugging at the moment. Also aside from a -current kernel I can boot, my system is -stable and it is pretty important that it stay that way at the moment. Its sort of a hassle working when basic things like ps don't work. Maybe once summer rolls around... However, if anyone has particular ideas of what may be going on and can provide a relatively simple experiment for me to try, I'm game. As a note, there is a good 5 or 10 seconds between freezing and when the screen goes blank which would be enough time to read console messages. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 19:32:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA09336 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fw.ast.com (fw.ast.com [165.164.6.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA09329 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nemesis by fw.ast.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tzxYn-00084cC; Thu, 21 Mar 96 21:30 CST Received: by nemesis.lonestar.org (Smail3.1.27.1 #20) id m0tzxTA-000CqnC; Thu, 21 Mar 96 21:24 WET Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 21:24 WET To: hackers@freebsd.org.current@freebsd.org From: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV) Sent: Thu Mar 21 1996, 21:24:51 CST Subject: Crash advice needed (long) Cc: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, I have run out of ideas. I welcome suggestions by private EMAIL (no need to clog the mailing list) on how to proceed next. I have a 486DX-33 system running FreeBSD 2.1.0. It crashes, usually about five times a week. Some weeks more frequently, some less. Max and min crashes for a week are around 20 and 3. The crashes occur at random, although around 7AM, 1PM and 1AM seem to have more crashes near those times. (It isn't a power problem, see below.) I had crashes when the system ran 1.1.5.1, but they were more like four a month. There was a definite increase when 2.1.0 came on the scene, and there were no changes in the hardware at that time. Anyway, I was postive that 2.1 was interacting with flaky hardware and that was the true cause, rather than an actual problem in 2.1.0. Now I am not so sure. Read on. Here is the precise hardware configuration: 1. System DEC 1027 486-33DX with 128K 485-Turbocache module EISA card cage, but no EISA cards present. (It will run with DX2/DX4, but I have removed these to simplify the test.) 2. Memory card with 12 Meg Parity RAM (Parity required on system). 3. Primary hard disk Western Digital 2540 540Meg IDE small DOS partition, rest of drive used for / /usr /usr/src swap. System is old and only has IDE, not EIDE. BIOS doesn't understand "big drives", so DOS partition is first, followed by root, swap, usr /usr/src. 4. Adaptec 1540B, latest BIOS/MCODE (upgraded yesterday to BD00 BIOS, 3054 MCODE) adapter is not terminated. (Was running MCODE F3F7 and BIOS BC00.) SCSI Controller #0 is Seagate 2GB Baracuda (terminated) SCSI Controller #2 is external Archive 2150eS tape drive (also terminated). 5. Sio 0 16550A (StarTech 16550[A]) IRQ4. Sio 1 16550A (StarTech 16550[A]) IRQ3. Sio 2 16550A (NS16552) IRQ 11. Sio 3 16550A (NS16552) IRQ 10. Sio0/Sio1 are on a STB dual-serial adapter with socketed UARTS. Sio2/Sio3 are the MLB ports. 6. One parallel port but no printer attached. 7. NEC N82077A Floppy Disk controller (mis-identified by probe as a NEC 72065) One 2.8Meg floppy (BIOS set to 1.44 Meg because 2.8 setting (type 6) confuses FreeBSD install floppy. Second 1.44 Meg floppy also set to 1.44Meg in BIOS. 8. Video is a WC90C31-based video card (copy of WD reference design) 9. A WD8013E netword card was removed during the tests. 10. System and peripherals powered via APC 1400 SmartUPS. 11. Two Telebit WorldBlazers and a Cardinal V.34 external modem, all connected to SmartUPS. 12. We are in a drought here so there have been no electrical storms of any kind and all telephone lines are underground all the way to the CO. The system activities consist of news (Cnews), UUCP (2.1.0 release), and mail forwarding/delivery (SMAIL). X is not run on this system and I am the only login user, apart from uucico. There are no CD-ROM drives present. The crashes manifest themselves in three ways: 1. System just reboots - screen clears, BIOS messages seen, system restarts. No panic or other messages. If you are in the room and the monitor is on, you hear the relays in the monitor go click-click and you look up and see the BIOS messages. Has happened while using the console - was typing a letter and the screen simply cleared and the system rebooted. 2. System hangs. Does not respond to keystrokes or network activity (when network card is present). IDE activity light is almost always (but not 100% of the time) on SOLID when lock-up is discovered. DTR is left high on the modems. 3. System panics. Almost always a Page Not Present error. The addresses vary, but a frequently occurring location is in and around 0xf0195d3c. According to nm /kernel, that is: f0195c90 T _Xintr14 f0195cd8 t Xresume14 f0195d30 T _Xintr15 somewhere in here... f0195d78 t Xresume15 f0195dd0 t _doreti f0195dd4 t doreti_next On this system, IRQ 15 is used by the SCSI adapter. IRQ 14 is used by the IDE: (taken from the most recent reboot) Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #0: Sun Nov 26 22:35:06 CST 1995 Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: root@nemesis.lonestar.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/NEMESIS Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: CPU: i486DX (486-class CPU) Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: real memory = 12910592 (12608K bytes) Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: avail memory = 11132928 (10872K bytes) Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: Probing for devices on the ISA bus: Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: ed0 not found at 0x280 Mar 21 20:03:19 nemesis /kernel: sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: sio0: type 16550A Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: sio1: type 16550A Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: sio2 at 0x3e8-0x3ef irq 10 on isa Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: sio2: type 16550A Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: sio3 at 0x2e8-0x2ef irq 11 on isa Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: sio3: type 16550A Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: lpt0 at 0x3bc-0x3c3 irq 7 on isa Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: lpt0: Interrupt-driven port Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: lp0: TCP/IP capable interface Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: lpt1 not found at 0xffffffff Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: psm0 not found at 0x60 Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: fdc0: NEC 72065B Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: fd1: 1.44MB 3.5in Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 on isa Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: wd0: 515MB (1056384 sectors), 1048 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: aha0 at 0x330-0x333 irq 15 drq 5 on isa Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: aha0 waiting for scsi devices to settle Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: (aha0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST12550N 0013" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: sd0(aha0:0:0): Direct-Access 2040MB (4178874 512 byte sectors) Mar 21 20:03:20 nemesis /kernel: (aha0:2:0): "ARCHIVE VIPER 150 21247 -005" type 1 removable SCSI 1 Mar 21 20:03:21 nemesis /kernel: st0(aha0:2:0): Sequential-Access st0: Archive Viper 150 is a known rogue Mar 21 20:03:21 nemesis /kernel: density code 0x0, drive empty Mar 21 20:03:21 nemesis /kernel: matcdc0 not found at 0x230 Mar 21 20:03:21 nemesis /kernel: scd0 not found at 0x230 Mar 21 20:03:21 nemesis /kernel: npx0 on motherboard Mar 21 20:03:21 nemesis /kernel: npx0: INT 16 interface Mar 21 20:03:21 nemesis /kernel: WARNING: / was not properly dismounted. When the system panics, it usually displays the panic, then it may hang and not reboot by itself. Todays panic was TRAP 12, virtual addr 0xff1c IP 8:0xf0195d2c Idle <----That state is very common in the crashes I see Page Fault and it hung for ten hours. Sometimes after the panic it will say it is syncing disks, and start displaying a long string of number (a full line of numbers on the screen of them, sometimes multiple lines) and then hang. Sometimes I will find it in this state and the SCSI drive will be seeking back and forth endlessly. If you unplug the SCSI cable from the drive, the seeking will stop, so it isn't the drive doing it on its own. The crashes where the system does not restart itself are the real killers, such as today when the system was down for ten hours before I could get to it to press RESET. Also note that the kernel is essentially a stock 2.1.0 kernel (built in November) that has had unneeded drivers removed. No other code changes/fixes have been added. (If someone thinks the stock driver should be used as something to try, I'll try it.) What I have tried: About two weeks ago, each time I discovered the system had crashed, I replaced a piece of hardware on the system, hoping to discover the hardware flaw. I have three identical computer systems (except peripherals) so I was able to do this. When each substitution was made, all previous substitutions were left in place. Here are the substitutions that were done: 1. Remove network card. No improvement. 2. Replace Chassis, backplane & power supply (this also replaces floppy, IDE, two of the four serial ports and IDE cable). (CPU/Cache/Memory is not on the backplane in this computer and were not changed.) No improvement. 3. Replace CPU card with cache module and processor chip. No improvement. 4. Replace memory card and switch to different card with completely different 12Meg of RAM SIMMs. No improvement. 5. Replace video card. No improvement. 6. Replace 1540B SCSI adapter. No improvement. 7. Upgrade BIOS/MCODE on 1540B SCSI adapter. No improvement. 8. Replace internal SCSI cable. No improvement. 9. Lower room temperature 5F to 64F. No improvement and I am getting cold. Now I have a pile of cards, a gutted chassis and the system is crashing about as often as I was before I started exchanging parts. At this point, only the hard drives, tape drive, floppy drives and modems in this system have not been changed and the crashes persist. Arggh! I know that because I have an IDE drive in the system some will immediately blame it as the cause, and that doesn't surprise me, particularly with the IDE activity light being left on, but it doesn't explain the panic in the IRQ 15 code, or the SCSI drive doing the waltz after a panic, etc. Do we have some bugs in the IDE hard disk driver that are new to 2.1.0? So, if you can think of anything else to disconnect, change or do without, let me know. But I have just about eliminated hardware as a cause. Thanks for the review. Frank Durda IV |"The Knights who say "LETNi" or uhclem%nemesis@rwsystr.nkn.net | demand... A SEGMENT REGISTER!!!" |"A what?" or ...letni!rwsys!nemesis!uhclem |"LETNi! LETNi! LETNi!" - 1983 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 20:18:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA12538 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sierra.zyzzyva.com (ppp0.zyzzyva.com [198.183.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12532 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from zyzzyva.com (randy@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sierra.zyzzyva.com (8.7.4/8.6.11) with ESMTP id WAA27950; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 22:17:17 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603220417.WAA27950@sierra.zyzzyva.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: IDE install In-reply-to: jkh's message of Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:02:52 -0800. <22658.827391772@time.cdrom.com> Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-uri: http://www.zyzzyva.com/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 22:17:14 -0600 From: Randy Terbush Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Next problem, 3c509 does not seem to get probed, even after disabling > > *all* other 0x300 probes. Seems to be a known problem from looking > > at the mail archive. Do you know of a solution? I'm not yet in a > > position to build a kernel.... > > Actually, the 3C509 has been getting pretty good reports lately. Are you > sure that the ep0 device is configured to match the card exactly? > > Also, using the 3c509's DOS setup disks please make sure that the card > is not in "test mode" - the stupid things are actually shipped that > way and won't work until you turn it off. > > Jordan > Thanks for your help Jordan. The problem ended up being a conflict with some gooey BIOS feature tromping on the config port for the 3c509. (something around 0x110) My hat off to you and the effort that the FreeBSD team has obviously put into polish on this OS. While I generally find a graphic interface to install more of a hinderance than a help, there was good thought put into making sysinstall very useful. I can't imagine what some of these people are complaining about. After being on NetBSD for the past ~3 years, I am looking forward to seeing what all the fuss is about with FreeBSD. :) I had two nits, (barely worth mentioning). 1. It would be nice to have 'ping' on the boot.flp. 2. Could not seem to mount the fixit.flp. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 20:58:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA14280 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA14265 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id NAA14052; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:57:55 +0900 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:57:55 +0900 Message-Id: <199603220457.NAA14052@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: gbuchanan@shl.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: I have a new driver. Want it? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Mar 96 16:13:00 EST. <3151C661@msmailgate> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wow! Good news. In article <3151C661@msmailgate> gbuchanan@shl.com writes: >> This is a driver for SMC's 9000 series of Ethernet adapters. >> I have it working with my SMC91C92 equipped Ampro LittleBoard embedded >> PC. It is partly adapted from Erik Stahlman's Linux driver which worked >> with his "EFA Info*Express SVC" VLB adaptor. According to SMC's databook, >> it will work for the entire SMC 9xxx series which includes the >> 91C90, 91C92 which are ISA type deals, 91C94 which is PCMCIA and >> the 91C100 fast Ethernet AFA "FEAST" chips. (Ha Ha) The 91C90, 91C92 >> at least are single chip controllers used in things like the Ampro >> single board system. I talked to someone or other who said that it >> was used in some sort of laptop docking station (Dell maybe?) that >> he was using. I have no idea what, if any, other mainstream cards >> use these chips. Of course, I want it. SMC91C92 is controller chip of Megaheltz PCMCIA X-Jack Ethernet card. I want to incorporate it into our pccard package. I (or our team) write pccard enabler routine for this card. Thanks! -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 21:05:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA14674 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 21:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from fw.ast.com (fw.ast.com [165.164.6.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA14668 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 21:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from nemesis by fw.ast.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tzyN2-0007zaC; Thu, 21 Mar 96 22:22 CST Received: by nemesis.lonestar.org (Smail3.1.27.1 #20) id m0tzyJE-000D1jC; Thu, 21 Mar 96 22:18 WET Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 22:18 WET To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org From: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV) Sent: Thu Mar 21 1996, 22:18:39 CST Subject: Crash advice needed (long) APPENDIX A Cc: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A few minutes after my first long-winded explanation of the crashes I have been having, another crash occurred. I was typing away on screen 4 when the console went dead (no response in vi) and the disks quit chattering. I switched over to screen 1 and found a panic display. I began to copy it down, but the message quickly scrolled off the screen due to repeated messages from the SCSI driver. (Gripe! there needs to be a way to prevent this.) Here are the highlights I was able to record: Fatal tray 12 page fault while in kernel mode Virtual address 0x10 IP at 0xf0195d3c (exact address as the crash earlier today, somewhere in Xintr15 and IRQ 15 is used by SCSI on this system) syncing disks sd0(aha0:0:0:) timed out: adapter not taking commands.. frozen?! Debugger("aha1542") called (this system has a 1540B) AGAIN aha0: MBO 02 and not 00 (free) These last few lines repeat every ten seconds or so until I got tired of looking at them and pressed RESET. (I have seen this MBO 02 and not 00 (free) message on a 1542C controller at work when it is talking to a WangDat tape drive. Sometimes this system also gets a "NO SENSE" message and will claim the tape drive is not ready (it is ready) or busy (it isn't). Solution on that system: turn everything off and back on and everyone is happy. Unfortunately, cycling power does not improve things here.) I hope this helps provide a clue. Note also on this system that the bulk of disk I/O occurs on the SCSI drive since news, uucp and mail all have their spools there and it was quite busy when this crash occurred. The IDE was hardly ticking over. Frank Durda IV |Chief Dalek: "The supreme council or uhclem%nemesis@rwsystr.nkn.net | has ordered that London | destroyed with fire bombs." or ...letni!rwsys!nemesis!uhclem |Peon Dalek: "I obey. Do you want fries with that?" From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 21 22:28:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA18508 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 22:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from VX23.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU (vx23.cc.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.23]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA18471 Thu, 21 Mar 1996 22:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from moa.cc.monash.edu.au (george@moa.cc.monash.edu.au) by vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.0-6 #16291) id <01I2NBBLYBLO9I5GGI@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:27:52 +1100 Received: (george@localhost) by moa.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.10/8.6.4) id QAA17304; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:27:50 +1000 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:27:50 +1000 From: George Scott Subject: Re: Crash advice needed (long) APPENDIX A To: current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Cc: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org Message-id: <199603220627.QAA17304@moa.cc.monash.edu.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > sd0(aha0:0:0:) timed out: > adapter not taking commands.. frozen?! > Debugger("aha1542") called (this system has a 1540B) > AGAIN > aha0: MBO 02 and not 00 (free) > These last few lines repeat every ten seconds or so until I got > tired of looking at them and pressed RESET. > > (I have seen this MBO 02 and not 00 (free) message on a 1542C > controller at work when it is talking to a WangDat tape drive. > Sometimes this system also gets a "NO SENSE" message and > will claim the tape drive is not ready (it is ready) or busy (it isn't). > Solution on that system: turn everything off and back on and everyone > is happy. Unfortunately, cycling power does not improve things here.) I had this frequently under 2.1.0-RELEASE on a '486 with an AHA-1542CP (with the P stuff disabled). I had 5 drives on the external connector and 2 on the internal and noticed that the time outs stopped happening when I disconnected either the external or internal drives, so I figured bus length as the cause. It was over 20' so I shortened it as much as I could (to 16' if I remember) but the problems still occured. I ended up putting the internal drives on a spare AVA-1515 I had waiting for another project and haven't had one problem since. George. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 00:16:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA22885 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA22869 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:15:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA25003; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:14:38 -0800 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199603220814.AAA25003@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Crash advice needed (long) APPENDIX A To: George.Scott@cc.monash.edu.au (George Scott) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:14:38 -0800 (PST) Cc: current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org In-Reply-To: <199603220627.QAA17304@moa.cc.monash.edu.au> from "George Scott" at Mar 22, 96 04:27:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > sd0(aha0:0:0:) timed out: > > adapter not taking commands.. frozen?! > > Debugger("aha1542") called (this system has a 1540B) > > AGAIN > > aha0: MBO 02 and not 00 (free) > > These last few lines repeat every ten seconds or so until I got > > tired of looking at them and pressed RESET. > > > > (I have seen this MBO 02 and not 00 (free) message on a 1542C > > controller at work when it is talking to a WangDat tape drive. > > Sometimes this system also gets a "NO SENSE" message and > > will claim the tape drive is not ready (it is ready) or busy (it isn't). > > Solution on that system: turn everything off and back on and everyone > > is happy. Unfortunately, cycling power does not improve things here.) > > I had this frequently under 2.1.0-RELEASE on a '486 with an AHA-1542CP (with > the P stuff disabled). > > I had 5 drives on the external connector and 2 on the internal and noticed > that the time outs stopped happening when I disconnected either the external > or internal drives, so I figured bus length as the cause. It was over 20' > so I shortened it as much as I could (to 16' if I remember) but the problems > still occured. > > I ended up putting the internal drives on a spare AVA-1515 I had waiting for > another project and haven't had one problem since. Thought the first person here is running a 1540B which is not a fast scsi-ii controller, I can fully see why George was having a problem, and why it went away. The 1542CP _is_ a fast scsi-ii device and I suspect you had some fast devices (>5MHz) on there. When running fast scsi-ii it is very hard to get away with a cable chain longer than 3 meters (~10 feet) and you had better be using active termination and _high_ quality cables. I can just see the problems comming when Ultra SCSI 20Mhz starts becoming popular as that will often require a total cable length on the order of 1.5 meter tops unless you pay extra special attention to the fact that this becomes a high frequency transmission line and must be treated us such. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 00:51:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA24026 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:51:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA24019 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA04136 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:50:54 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA03147 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:50:53 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id IAA17322 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:48:07 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603220748.IAA17322@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:48:07 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603220049.RAA01342@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 21, 96 05:49:06 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Terry Lambert wrote: > In any case, a linear congruential search for the boundry conditions > followed by a binary search could easily find the last sector on > any device for you. This is what is done in a partition recognition > TSD under Win95. How big is the chance that this will jam an good ol' ``dumb'' drive? (Seeking beyond the last cylinder, that it is.) I remember well the times where people gave the advice in Usenet to ``put a business card into the floppy drive'' to stop it from jamming. This was due to a too aggressive floppy tape driver. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 00:52:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA24157 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA24149 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA04184; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:51:19 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA03155; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:51:19 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA17517; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:11:55 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603220811.JAA17517@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: CDROM Recorders To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:11:54 +0100 (MET) Cc: klam@awod.com (Ken Lam) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4b12.32.19960321220751.00664e1c@awod.com> from "Ken Lam" at Mar 21, 96 05:07:51 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Ken Lam wrote: > I am about to order a CDROM recorder, I wanted to find > which are supported under FreeBSD. I checked in the > LINT, FAQ, HB, but no joys there. Support is still rather green, and only available in -current (nor will it creep into the 2.1 branch at all). By now, the Plasmon and HP recorders are known to work. Adding other devices is intended to be possible, but you need the SCSI reference from the vendor. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 01:29:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA25707 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA25697 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA19439 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:29:01 -0800 (PST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: The SNAP CD.. Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:29:01 -0800 Message-ID: <19437.827486941@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Many people have asked me how to sign up for it, also wondering if existing subscribers will get it automatically. Sorry about the absence of such facts in my earlier posting! Here's the deal: Existing subscribers will *not* get these SNAP CDs by default - we felt that most had subscribed with the intention of getting major releases, not just any FreeBSD related CD we decided to make, so it's a separate subscription. Second, you can subscribe or order the single CD by sending mail to orders@cdrom.com or calling: +1 800 786-9907 (toll-free in the US & Canada) +1 510 674-0783 (international) +1 510 674-0821 (FAX orders) You can also order on-line using http://www.cdrom.com HOWEVER, please bear in mind that we don't even have an ad code for this yet and the salesperson you get may respond with blank incomprehension when you first mention that you want the FreeBSD SNAP CDROM (and not the regular one, which they may try to sell you - make this clear!). If everyone could wait about a week before ordering, this would be even better and I probably let the cat out of the bag just a _bit_ too soon, but the truly impatient among you can almost certainly get a back-order for it in now if you're simply careful to make it plain to the sales person what it is you want. I'll also send a message to sales to try and make it clear just what's going on here. Finally, the 2.2-960321-SNAP will be officially released on ftp.cdrom.com in about 3 hours (March 22nd, 0400 PST). When you see the DONT_GRAB_THIS_YET file go away, it's ready. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 01:38:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA26208 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA26197 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA19503; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:37:27 -0800 (PST) To: Randy Terbush cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IDE install In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 22:17:14 CST." <199603220417.WAA27950@sierra.zyzzyva.com> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:37:27 -0800 Message-ID: <19501.827487447@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I had two nits, (barely worth mentioning). > 1. It would be nice to have 'ping' on the boot.flp. Yeah, I do intend to either put it there or build it into sysinstall somehow. > 2. Could not seem to mount the fixit.flp. Hmmm. Symptoms? I've managed to use it myself, though no one would say that it's not somewhat unwieldy.. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 03:03:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA29826 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 03:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from blue.marlin.com.br ([200.255.107.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA29796 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 03:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from blue.marlin.com.br by blue.marlin.com.br (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id IAA01135; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:04:15 -0300 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:04:15 -0300 (EST) From: Flavio Imbert Domingos To: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org cc: Suporte Marlin Subject: I am having problems with quota on 2.1 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! When I am using quota (quotaon) in my system, the system crash slowly and I can't log into the system anymore. I am using FreeBSD 2.1 and I have a Pentium 100 + 32MB + SCSI HD, TAPE, etc.. Could anyone please tell me if there is a bug in FreeBSD 2.1 on quota or if I am making anything wrong? I am sending my kernel configuration too. Thanks in advance, Flavio Imbert. ------------------------- My Kernel Configuration ---------------------- # # GENERIC -- Generic machine with WD/AHx/NCR/BTx family disks # # $Id: GENERIC,v 1.46.2.6 1995/10/25 17:29:51 jkh Exp $ # machine "i386" #cpu "I386_CPU" #cpu "I486_CPU" cpu "I586_CPU" ident Kernel maxusers 10 #options MATH_EMULATE #Support for x87 emulation options INET #InterNETworking options FFS #Berkeley Fast Filesystem options NFS #Network Filesystem #options MSDOSFS #MSDOS Filesystem options "CD9660" #ISO 9660 Filesystem options PROCFS #Process filesystem options "COMPAT_43" #Compatible with BSD 4.3 options "SCSI_DELAY=10" #Be pessimistic about Joe SCSI device options BOUNCE_BUFFERS #include support for DMA bounce buffers options UCONSOLE #Allow users to grab the console options SYSVSHM options SYSVSEM options SYSVMSG options QUOTA config kernel root on wd0 controller isa0 controller pci0 controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 #disk fd1 at fdc0 drive 1 #tape ft0 at fdc0 drive 2 #controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 vector wdintr #disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0 #disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1 #controller wdc1 at isa? port "IO_WD2" bio irq 15 vector wdintr #disk wd2 at wdc1 drive 0 #disk wd3 at wdc1 drive 1 #options ATAPI #Enable ATAPI support for IDE bus #device wcd0 #IDE CD-ROM controller ncr0 controller ahc0 #controller bt0 at isa? port "IO_BT0" bio irq ? vector btintr #controller uha0 at isa? port "IO_UHA0" bio irq ? drq 5 vector uhaintr #controller ahc1 at isa? bio irq ? vector ahcintr #controller ahb0 at isa? bio irq ? vector ahbintr #controller aha0 at isa? port "IO_AHA0" bio irq ? drq 5 vector ahaintr #controller aic0 at isa? port 0x340 bio irq 11 vector aicintr #controller nca0 at isa? port 0x1f88 bio irq 10 vector ncaintr #controller nca1 at isa? port 0x350 bio irq 5 vector ncaintr #controller sea0 at isa? bio irq 5 iomem 0xc8000 iosiz 0x2000 vector seaintr controller scbus0 device sd0 device st0 device cd0 #Only need one of these, the code dynamically grows #device wt0 at isa? port 0x300 bio irq 5 drq 1 vector wtintr #device mcd0 at isa? port 0x300 bio irq 10 vector mcdintr #device mcd1 at isa? port 0x340 bio irq 11 vector mcdintr #controller matcd0 at isa? port 0x230 bio #device scd0 at isa? port 0x230 bio # syscons is the default console driver, resembling an SCO console device sc0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector scintr # Enable this and PCVT_FREEBSD for pcvt vt220 compatible console driver #device vt0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector pcrint options "PCVT_FREEBSD=210" # pcvt running on FreeBSD 2.1 options XSERVER # include code for XFree86 device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" irq 13 vector npxintr device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" tty irq 4 vector siointr device sio1 at isa? port "IO_COM2" tty irq 3 vector siointr device sio2 at isa? port "IO_COM3" tty irq 5 vector siointr device sio3 at isa? port "IO_COM4" tty irq 9 vector siointr device lpt0 at isa? port? tty irq 7 vector lptintr #device lpt1 at isa? port? tty #device lpt2 at isa? port? tty #device mse0 at isa? port 0x23c tty irq 5 vector mseintr # Order is important here due to intrusive probes, do *not* alphabetize # this list of network interfaces until the probes have been fixed. # Right now it appears that the ie0 must be probed before ep0. See # revision 1.20 of this file. #device de0 #device ed0 at isa? port 0x280 net irq 5 iomem 0xd8000 vector edintr device ed1 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 5 iomem 0xd8000 vector edintr #device ie0 at isa? port 0x360 net irq 7 iomem 0xd0000 vector ieintr #device ep0 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 10 vector epintr #device ix0 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 10 iomem 0xd0000 iosiz 32768 vector ixintr #device le0 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 5 iomem 0xd0000 vector le_intr #device lnc0 at isa? port 0x280 net irq 10 drq 0 vector lncintr #device lnc1 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 10 drq 0 vector lncintr #device ze0 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 5 iomem 0xd8000 vector zeintr #device zp0 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 10 iomem 0xd8000 vector zpintr pseudo-device loop pseudo-device ether pseudo-device log #pseudo-device sl 1 # ijppp uses tun instead of ppp device #pseudo-device ppp 1 pseudo-device tun 1 pseudo-device pty 16 pseudo-device gzip # Exec gzipped a.out's From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 03:25:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA01036 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 03:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA01031 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 03:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA20367 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 03:24:55 -0800 (PST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Whoops! Price correction on the 2.2-960321-SNAP CD! Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 03:24:55 -0800 Message-ID: <20365.827493895@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I had the prices a little low and a little high, it seems: The prices are: 29.95 single 14.95 sub. NOT $24.95 single and $19.95 sub, as I originally stated. Sorry about that! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 05:00:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA04596 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 05:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA04591 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 05:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA05969; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:58:50 +1100 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:58:50 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603221258.XAA05969@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@freebsd.org, pst@shockwave.com Subject: Re: modloaded block/char device drivers Cc: bugs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, jmz@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >(a) calling dev_attach() from a modloaded device panics the system. > I have not even attempted to mess with this yet, but it can be There isn't much to go wrong. There must be a bad pointer. > trivially reproduced by removing the #ifndef ACTUALL_LKM_NOT_KERNEL > wrappers around the call in qcam.c. It panics with a kernel page > fault, but the current calling chain did /not/ include any of the > qcam routines in the stack frame. I just found this by scratching Perhaps ebp got trashed (the stack trace stops when it hits ebp == 0). Then the problem might not be in dev_attach. >(b) I was forced to manually call qcam_registerdev() which is the code > that attaches the driver's cdevsw structure to the rest of the kernel. > Without this, of course, devices are not reachable via their inodes. > I feel that it's not proper for the LKM _load function to be > doing this. This really should be done as part of the LKM load process > since you already have the major number and the pointer to the structure > passed in. I think it's proper (except qcam_sysinit() doesn't handle failures and isn't designed to be reused) and the SYSINITs for installing the device switches are improper. The only reason for the SYSINITs is that they saved Julian from having to find the correct places to call [bc]devsw_add() in dozens of driver attach functions. It's simpler for statically configured drivers to call [bc]devsw_add() directly if you're writing a new driver (see sio, syscons and pcvt - the SYSINITs didn't even work for syscons and pcvt because the major number is shared). I think the SYSINITs get in the way even more for dynamically configured drivers. >(c) LKMs for device drivers with hardware that is not at a fixed address > (e.g. the joystick) or completely auto-scanable are really kludgy > right now. There's no easy way, other than editing the driver source, qcam should also worry about conflicts with lpt* :-). Someone might even want to use the same lpt port at different times for printing, parallel port TCP/IP, and qcam. The lpt driver and the plip driver are in the same file so that they can be selected between using an ioctl. There's gotta be a better way to do this. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 05:20:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA05307 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 05:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA05302 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 05:20:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA06941; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:17:50 +1100 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:17:50 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603221317.AAA06941@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, pst@shockwave.com Subject: Re: real time interrupts in FreeBSD? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Do you feel it's better to acquire timer 0 once, set my 1ms interrupt rate, >and leave the ms timer running until the camera device is no longer open, >or do you think that when I need to download a frame, I should switch the >clock rate, do my wait, restore the clock rate, and go on? I would try letting it run. This will probably work OK, and it saves you from having to worry about other drivers stealing the timer. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 05:33:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA05780 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 05:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ai.kaist.ac.kr ([143.248.173.42]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA05775 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 05:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ymkim@localhost) by ai.kaist.ac.kr (8.6.9H1/8.6.9) id WAA20086 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:31:26 +0900 From: Kim Young Min Message-Id: <199603221331.WAA20086@ai.kaist.ac.kr> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:31:21 +0900 (gmt) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21-h4] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk subscribe ymkim@aim.kaist.ac.kr From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 05:56:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA06815 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 05:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA06809 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 05:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA07423; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:29:52 +1100 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:29:52 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603221329.AAA07423@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, julian@ref.tfs.com Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Cc: andreas@knobel.gun.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> But the problem is, fdisk doesn't seem to enable disklabel to >>> do it's job. >>can you say more? did you try rebooting between the two? >Whoa. No. Is -that- it? The magic bullet I have been looking for? Perhaps. fdisk writes tables to the disk and doesn't use the ioctl to tell the system that the disk has changed. However, the system reads the tables of the disk on the next open of a device on the disk provided no other device on the disk is already open. Thus there is usually no need to reboot if you're setting up a new disk. The tricky case is adding or changing the partition table for the root disk - then you can't even unmount all file systems and avoid swapping on the disk so that no other device on the disk is open. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 06:11:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA07528 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 06:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA07522 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 06:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA08451; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:56:57 +1100 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:56:57 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603221356.AAA08451@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, hdalog@zipnet.net Subject: Re: real time interrupts in FreeBSD? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, pst@shockwave.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> work to minimise the latency. (I'm still trying to track down what >> causes a 5 (?) msec clock interrupt latency. I found what caused 20+ >> msec clock interrupt latency. It was a local experiment that that >> sometimes increased clock interrupt latency to softclock interrupt >> latency.) >To address this make sure you have a way to measure your latency. The i586 cycle counter can probably be used reliably (only on 586's of course). I'm currently using the i8254 counter to adjust the (value read from the) i586 counter because I trust the i8254 counter more. The maximum adjustment over the last hour was 0x7ec9 ticks = 246 usec (for latency from the clock interrupt to cpu_thisticklen()). >When I last played with this I used a conversion overrun on a >clocked A-D board as a "missed deadline" flag, restarting the >conversion in the real time tick. This was real easy - I'm sure >you can also do this using clock with more work. It's not easy if the latency is > 10 msec. Then clock interrupts are lost. The best approaches that I can think of are: - reserve the speaker timer for improving the main timer. Set it to a maximum count of 65536. Then 55 msec worth of lost clock interrupts can be noticed. - recalibrate against the rtc every second. You could tell if you lost clock interrupts, but not exactly when. >BTW: With 20 msec latency how can we can keep up with 115200 input data? >We're receiving about 240 characters in 20 msec at that rate. Serial interrupts have higher priority. With a latency of 20 msec you can only handle the following speeds: 8250: 50 cps (300 bps works, 600 bps fails) 16550: 16 * 50 = 8000 cps (4800 bps works, 9600 bps fails) Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 06:31:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA08643 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 06:31:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA08637 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 06:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA09417; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 01:26:16 +1100 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 01:26:16 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603221426.BAA09417@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Cc: andreas@knobel.gun.de, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >The driver for old MFM drives should read the CMOS drive table. This fails for - old BIOSes (e.g. 1987 Award) that don't have a CMOS drive table - old BIOSes (e.g. 1987 Award) that don't have a suitable CMOS drive index (I used the index for a 979(?)-cylinder disk for my 988- and 1314- cylinder disks and had no problems using the cylinders beyond the end under systems that didn't believe the BIOS). - more than the number of old MFM drives supported by the BIOS. Anyway, the driver for old MFM drives should use the geometry reported by the BIOS, and FreeBSD's wd driver does so, modulo bugs. >> >The disktab should go. >> >> I see that you have sold your stock of ESDI drives :-). >No, but I see that the slice code forces a translated world view >(fake cylinder boundries) on me pretty much anyway, unless I go >to an extrordinary amount of effort. You shouldn't have sold your stock of optical attachments 8-). The slice only advises about the geometry. The translated world view is encouraged by sysinstall's default partitioning scheme and the requirement to boot using the BIOS. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 07:27:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA10935 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 07:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgate.flevel.co.uk (fgate.flevel.co.uk [194.6.101.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA10925 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 07:26:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from graham@localhost) by fgate.flevel.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA28084 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:26:22 GMT Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:26:22 GMT From: Graham Breach Message-Id: <199603221526.PAA28084@fgate.flevel.co.uk> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Wireless LAN connections Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any experience of wireless LAN connections, over 180m distance or greater? Any tips about methods and equipment would be greatly appreciated. Replies please to david@flevel.co.uk. Thanks, Graham Breach From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 08:44:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA14418 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gvr.win.tue.nl (root@gvr.win.tue.nl [131.155.210.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14413 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by gvr.win.tue.nl (8.6.12/1.53) id RAA00506; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:43:15 +0100 From: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) Message-Id: <199603221643.RAA00506@gvr.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: I am having problems with quota on 2.1 To: imbert@marlin.com.br (Flavio Imbert Domingos) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:43:15 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, suporte@marlin.com.br In-Reply-To: from "Flavio Imbert Domingos" at Mar 22, 96 08:04:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Flavio Imbert Domingos wrote: > > > Hi! > > When I am using quota (quotaon) in my system, the system crash slowly and I > can't log into the system anymore. I am using FreeBSD 2.1 and I have a Pentium > 100 + 32MB + SCSI HD, TAPE, etc.. Could anyone please tell me if there > is a bug in FreeBSD 2.1 on quota or if I am making anything wrong? I am > sending my kernel configuration too. > Where do you have the quota files? What happens if you only enable quota on one of the disks? -Guido From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 08:51:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA14729 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:51:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14669 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:50:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from linda.teleport.com (mrl@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA01674; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:49:48 -0800 From: Mostyn/Annabella Received: (mrl@localhost) by linda.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA02052; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:49:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199603221649.IAA02052@linda.teleport.com> Subject: Re: I have a new driver. Want it? To: gbuchanan@shl.com (BUCHANAN Gardner) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:49:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3151C661@msmailgate> from "BUCHANAN Gardner" at Mar 21, 96 04:13:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is a driver for SMC's 9000 series of Ethernet adapters. > I have it working with my SMC91C92 equipped Ampro LittleBoard embedded > PC. It is partly adapted from Erik Stahlman's Linux driver which worked > with his "EFA Info*Express SVC" VLB adaptor. According to SMC's databook, > it will work for the entire SMC 9xxx series which includes the > 91C90, 91C92 which are ISA type deals, 91C94 which is PCMCIA and > the 91C100 fast Ethernet AFA "FEAST" chips. (Ha Ha) The 91C90, 91C92 > at least are single chip controllers used in things like the Ampro > single board system. I talked to someone or other who said that it > was used in some sort of laptop docking station (Dell maybe?) .... ^^^^^^^^^^ Dell latitude docking stations use it :-) Mostyn Lewis From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 09:24:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16511 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA16487 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA06071; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603221724.JAA06071@precipice.shockwave.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new sup server In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:04:26 PST." <1344.827453066@time.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:03 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: new sup server > I suspect that Jordan will be trimming off sup's from non-official-mirror > sites real soon now to reduce the load on freefall and the T1. You suspect correctly. This is a fine proposal and I urge everyone here to heed the Call of Paul. > Ministry of Information If you really want to adopt that title, it's all yours. Just don't forget that you get to take poison with the rest of us, come the bitter end. :-) I was thinking I could escape across the border to someplace running VMS... :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 09:24:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16553 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA16547 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id XAA20902 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 23:02:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603220702.XAA20902@ref.tfs.com> Subject: 2.1R and COMPAT_LINUX To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 23:02:48 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I didn't pay attention at teh time, but.. does 2.1R have linux capabilities? I can't remember when it started working? there is an FAQ soemwhere.. any idea where? julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 09:24:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16571 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA16549 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id RAA20452; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:26:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603220126.RAA20452@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Mathematica under FreeBSD To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:26:10 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, terry@lambert.org, rich@lamprey.utmb.edu, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603212301.QAA01013@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Mar 21, 96 04:01:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I would put in: > > { > int i; > printf( "here 1\n"); > for( i=0; i < 0x7fffffff; i++) /* adjust down for time*/ > continue; > } > that's silly, he doesn't have the source to that (I believe) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 09:25:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16608 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA16589 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id MAA19850; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:32:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603212032.MAA19850@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: User level threads. To: mmead@Glock.COM (matthew c. mead) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:32:47 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, darrend@novell.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603210609.BAA01153@neon.Glock.COM> from "matthew c. mead" at Mar 21, 96 01:09:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Michael Smith writes: > > > Darren R. Davis stands accused of saying: > > > > No, I haven't read the FAQ or researched this out. I guess I am looking > > > for the quick answer. I have need of a user-level threads library. Is > > > there a defacto standard in the BSD community? What's the current > > > solution to this problem? > > > FreeBSD-current has pthreads and a thread-safe libc. > if you go to /usr/src/lib/lib_r and type 'make' and make install it will install libc_r which contains in addition to the thread-safe libc, all the normal pthreads- functions.. they are however not completely pthreads complient yet.. > Where can pthreads be found? > > > > -matt > > -- > Matthew C. Mead > > mmead@Glock.COM > http://www.Glock.COM/~mmead/ > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 09:25:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16617 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA16595 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id LAA19698; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:57:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603211957.LAA19698@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: DEVFS vs "regular /dev" To: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:57:18 -0800 (PST) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at Mar 21, 96 02:12:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > These problems may have been corrected. I do know for certain that certain > > /dev/ entries missing causes the system to hang very early in init, and you > > can not even get up single user to fix it. This _needs_ fixed badly, you > > should be able to > > rm -r /dev > > reboot > > and get the system up single user, if not you have a chicken and egg > > problem as to how to repair a damaged or loss /dev tree. > > > That's what got me started playing with the DEVFS code. I figured > I'd try to boot the system using devfs instead of the "normal /dev", and > found that /dev/ttyv* wasn't being created, so I couldn't login. I've got > my system now to the point that I could do 'rm -r /dev' and be able to boot > without any problems. well, not quite.. because init tries to open some devices before the fstab is used to mount the disks and devfs.. you could always alter init to directly mount /dev.... > > Marc G. Fournier | POP Mail Telnet Acct DNS Hosting > System | WWW Services Database Services | Knowledge, > Administrator | | Information and > scrappy@ki.net | WWW: http://www.ki.net | Communications, Inc > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 09:34:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA17355 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA17350 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA06312; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:34:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603221734.JAA06312@precipice.shockwave.com> To: Bruce Evans cc: bde@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, jmz@freebsd.org Subject: Re: modloaded block/char device drivers In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:58:50 +1100." <199603221258.XAA05969@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:34:36 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Bruce Evans Subject: Re: modloaded block/char device drivers qcam should also worry about conflicts with lpt* :-). Someone might even want to use the same lpt port at different times for printing, parallel port TCP/IP, and qcam. The lpt driver and the plip driver are in the same file so that they can be selected between using an ioctl. There's gotta be a better way to do this. Yep. Right now, they actually /do/ stay out of each others way, as long as you don't try to open both devices at the same time. It seems to me, we need something like a top half and a bottom half of the kdc, the top half stays with the driver (i.e. belongs to qcam or lpt) and the bottom half stays with the hardware. Then opening either device would lock out the other device. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 10:15:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA18920 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18915 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA02908; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:00:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603221800.LAA02908@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:00:18 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603220748.IAA17322@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Mar 22, 96 08:48:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > In any case, a linear congruential search for the boundry conditions > > followed by a binary search could easily find the last sector on > > any device for you. This is what is done in a partition recognition > > TSD under Win95. > > How big is the chance that this will jam an good ol' ``dumb'' drive? > (Seeking beyond the last cylinder, that it is.) I remember well the > times where people gave the advice in Usenet to ``put a business card > into the floppy drive'' to stop it from jamming. This was due to a > too aggressive floppy tape driver. A plain binary search will fail at twice address wrap boundry; that's why you can't start at 32 bit and work down with a vanilla binary search. There is a possibility for failure on MFM drive in excess of 8G... seen one of those, ever? If you disallow the possibility, the problem goes away (and IDE controllers respond to geometry requests, so they aren't a problem). You can make the assumption, based on drive type, and you can make the drive type assumption in the controller driver (since a controller can only push drives of a specific type). So you linear search the boundry ranges where errors are possible, and only include those areas which respond positively immediately below the boundry. This will *always* give you the drive size, in sectors. I haven't seen a "jam" for an illegal address. I'd find it hard to believe one could occur if you never went too far past the addressable range (to the point where it's ignoring address bits). As far as I've been able to determine, the only potential problem is a false positive on address bits -- ie: the address range wraps and a simple binary search fails to note the gaps in the address space (which is why you must do the other search first). If you can show me a drive with exactly N cylinders, where log2(N) is 12 or 16, and the controller is also flawed such that the 13th or 17th bit is treated as 0 in all cases, then I can show you a drive that will fail. Of course, the BIOS drive table and the CMOS drive type can be used to handle these cases as well (the largest MFM drives typically have 9 heads, which isn't an even power of 2), since only the number of cylinders will be increased... the heads and sectors must remain invariant. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 10:17:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA19098 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:17:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA19083 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:16:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA02936; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:06:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603221806.LAA02936@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:06:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, terry@lambert.org, andreas@knobel.gun.de, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603221426.BAA09417@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Mar 23, 96 01:26:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >The driver for old MFM drives should read the CMOS drive table. > > This fails for > - old BIOSes (e.g. 1987 Award) that don't have a CMOS drive table > - old BIOSes (e.g. 1987 Award) that don't have a suitable CMOS drive index > (I used the index for a 979(?)-cylinder disk for my 988- and 1314- > cylinder disks and had no problems using the cylinders beyond the > end under systems that didn't believe the BIOS). > - more than the number of old MFM drives supported by the BIOS. > > Anyway, the driver for old MFM drives should use the geometry reported > by the BIOS, and FreeBSD's wd driver does so, modulo bugs. I think the complaint on that was that there are "wasted cylinders". I know this is true for ESDI drives, which are WD interfaced the same as MFM or RLL. That's why I suggested the cylinder range search in those cases. > >> >The disktab should go. > >> > >> I see that you have sold your stock of ESDI drives :-). > > >No, but I see that the slice code forces a translated world view > >(fake cylinder boundries) on me pretty much anyway, unless I go > >to an extrordinary amount of effort. > > You shouldn't have sold your stock of optical attachments 8-). > The slice only advises about the geometry. The translated world > view is encouraged by sysinstall's default partitioning scheme > and the requirement to boot using the BIOS. I still can't install on a WD1007 with sector sparing enabled, and it's because of the translation assumptions. 8-(. I would prefer that, at the very least, the "preferred geometry" comes back on a per controller basis because of this. At the most, the geometry information should be completely abstracted (like I've been suggesting). I'm going to take a shot at a non-functional "tool" prototype some time in the next week or two to see if I can resolve the GUI/tool communication issues. If I can, expect me to lobby harder for the abstration and the death of the disktab. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 10:54:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA21149 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSL.ORST.EDU (FSL.ORST.EDU [128.193.112.105]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21128 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from picea.FSL.ORST.EDU (hernanw@picea.FSL.ORST.EDU [128.193.112.3]) by FSL.ORST.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA12972; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:52:40 -0800 Received: (from hernanw@localhost) by picea.FSL.ORST.EDU (8.7/8.6.9) id KAA26143; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:52:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:52:36 -0800 (PST) From: Wayne Hernandez To: Paul Traina cc: freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new sup server In-Reply-To: <199603211954.LAA02727@precipice.shockwave.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Paul Traina wrote: > Here's an example of neighbor coordination, in the following example, > sup3 and sup4 choose sup windows that would cause them to never overlap. > > sup2 2:10 8;10 13:10 20:10 4x > sup3 2:20 13:20 2x > sup4 8:30 13:30 2x > sup5 2:40 8:40 20:40 3x > sup6 13:50 1x > I'm reset to 2:20 and 13:20. I'm seeing a "invalid release" in my logs, that I'm trying to track down to which one of my releases have something wrong. While I am at it, I have most of /.016/FreeBSD mirrored, but the links don't seem to work within netscape. If you need another mirror site to cut down on the snapshot grabbers. I will have to do some house cleaning to make room for todays snapshot though, before I have it available. I'm going to attempt to burn a cd which my current machine. My sup server is running 2.1.0 at the moment. Wayne From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 12:10:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA26277 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA26271 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I2NJ7BB3R4001YLN@mail.rwth-aachen.de> for freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:13:28 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA00359 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:05:01 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:05:01 +0100 From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: last, who To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Message-id: <199603222005.VAA00359@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Under which circumstances can it happen that the 'last' command shows "still logged in" while 'who' doesn't show that person as logged in ? (2.2-current). --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 12:20:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA27223 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27199 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA02047; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:20:18 +0100 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA07781 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:19:49 +0100 Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA30903 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:00:52 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.6.12/8.6.6) id TAA00680; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:42:35 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199603221842.TAA00680@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands Subject: Re: Crash advice needed (long) APPENDIX A To: George.Scott@cc.monash.edu.au (George Scott) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:42:35 +0100 (MET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org In-Reply-To: <199603220627.QAA17304@moa.cc.monash.edu.au> from "George Scott" at Mar 22, 96 04:27:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Debugger("aha1542") called (this system has a 1540B) > > AGAIN > > aha0: MBO 02 and not 00 (free) > > These last few lines repeat every ten seconds or so until I got > > tired of looking at them and pressed RESET. > > > > (I have seen this MBO 02 and not 00 (free) message on a 1542C > > controller at work when it is talking to a WangDat tape drive. > > Sometimes this system also gets a "NO SENSE" message and > > will claim the tape drive is not ready (it is ready) or busy (it isn't). > > Solution on that system: turn everything off and back on and everyone > > is happy. Unfortunately, cycling power does not improve things here.) > > I had this frequently under 2.1.0-RELEASE on a '486 with an AHA-1542CP (with > the P stuff disabled). > > I had 5 drives on the external connector and 2 on the internal and noticed > that the time outs stopped happening when I disconnected either the external > or internal drives, so I figured bus length as the cause. It was over 20' > so I shortened it as much as I could (to 16' if I remember) but the problems > still occured. Apart from the fact that 20' is too long (3m max for fast-SCSI, 1542C is a Fast capable controller that will try to use 10Mbytes/sec with a Fast device) Adaptecs tend to work better if the controller is at the end of the SCSI bus. So, either use the internal or external connector but not both at the same time _ __________________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 13:10:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA29605 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA29594 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA03306; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:04:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603222104.OAA03306@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Crash advice needed (long) APPENDIX A To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:04:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: George.Scott@cc.monash.edu.au, current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org In-Reply-To: <199603221842.TAA00680@yedi.iaf.nl> from "Wilko Bulte" at Mar 22, 96 07:42:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Apart from the fact that 20' is too long (3m max for fast-SCSI, 1542C is > a Fast capable controller that will try to use 10Mbytes/sec with a Fast > device) Adaptecs tend to work better if the controller is at the end of > the SCSI bus. So, either use the internal or external connector but not > both at the same time Using both busses is not a problem for the CF; the C and prior can only successfully use the internal or the external unless there is a modification (invloving a capacitor and a resistor soldered on near the external connector). At one time, Rod Grimes posted the ECN (Engineering Change Notice) number for this mod to the older Adaptec controllers. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 13:37:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA01455 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01413 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA26670; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:37:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199603222137.NAA26670@austin.polstra.com> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.org, jkh@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: new sup server In-reply-to: <1344.827453066@time.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:37:17 -0800 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan wrote: > > I suspect that Jordan will be trimming off sup's from non-official-mirror > > sites real soon now to reduce the load on freefall and the T1. > > You suspect correctly. PLEASE don't do that yet! I am telling you again: the sup mirrors still do NOT work right. In several attempts spread over the past few months, I have never yet succeeded in getting any of the sup mirrors to give me an intact cvs tree. Invariably, they delete some of my perfectly good files, without replacing them later on. As an example, sup5 is currently (and repeatably) doing this to me: SUP 9.26 (4.3 BSD) for file supfile.sup5 at Mar 20 04:15:01 SUP Upgrade of src-base-cvs at Wed Mar 20 04:15:01 1996 SUP Fileserver 9.13 (4.3 BSD) 21149 on burka.rdy.com at 04:15:01 SUP Fileserver supports compression. SUP Requesting changes since Mar 16 17:06:47 1996 SUP: Unable to delete directory src/usr.sbin SUP: Unable to delete directory src/usr.bin SUP Deleted directory src/tools SUP: Unable to delete directory src/sys SUP: Unable to delete directory src/share SUP: Unable to delete directory src/secure SUP: Unable to delete directory src/sbin SUP: Unable to delete directory src/release SUP: Unable to delete directory src/lkm SUP: Unable to delete directory src/libexec SUP: Unable to delete directory src/lib SUP Deleted directory src/kerberosIV SUP: Unable to delete directory src/include SUP: Unable to delete directory src/gnu SUP: Unable to delete directory src/games SUP: Unable to delete directory src/etc SUP: Unable to delete directory src/eBones SUP: Unable to delete directory src/bin SUP Deleted directory src/TODO-2.1 SUP Deleted file src/Makefile,v SUP Deleted file src/COPYRIGHT,v SUP Deleted directory src/Attic It can't be blamed on an out-of-date sup client, either. I'm using the client from -stable, which is identical to the one in -current. I'm currently working with Dima to try and figure out what is going on. I've instrumented my sup client with a bunch of printfs, and I'm trying to analyze the copious output they've given me. (Help from somebody who already knows the sup internals would be most welcome!) Until this is finally fixed, I'm in trouble if you cut me off from sup.freebsd.org. -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 13:51:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA02502 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02491 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA20160; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:51:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:51:02 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603222151.OAA20160@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Crash advice needed (long) APPENDIX A In-Reply-To: <199603222104.OAA03306@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199603221842.TAA00680@yedi.iaf.nl> <199603222104.OAA03306@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Apart from the fact that 20' is too long (3m max for fast-SCSI, 1542C is > > a Fast capable controller that will try to use 10Mbytes/sec with a Fast > > device) Adaptecs tend to work better if the controller is at the end of > > the SCSI bus. So, either use the internal or external connector but not > > both at the same time > > Using both busses is not a problem for the CF; the C and prior can > only successfully use the internal or the external unless there is > a modification (invloving a capacitor and a resistor soldered on near > the external connector). Bzzt. Thanks for playing, but no dice. I've run my 1542B (which was *very* much prior to the C model) with internal/external devices since a month after I got it. I updated to the most recent BIOS revsion before I did that, but I've had no problems that have been due to my board. It's worked flawlessly running SCSI-I and SCSI-II disks, tapes, and CD's externally. (Though I haven't yet stuck a scanner on it. That'll be the next project. :) Termination seems to be less critical on older SCSI devices, as I ran with the adapter terminated, external devices, and with both my internal drives terminated until I got my new disk a year and a half ago. Now I have to run everything properly terminated, and have added an external 4MM DAT w/out problems. I'm running a mixture of SCSI-I and SCSI-II peripherals if that makes any difference. Termination <-> External S2-DAT <-> 1542B <-> Quantum 1.8G S2 \ <-> Quantum 40MB S1 <-> Tanberg 150 S1/S2(?) <-> NEC 3X CD <-> Termination My Tandberg claims to be a SCSI-II device, but I don't think it is. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 14:58:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA08646 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.ge.com (ns.ge.com [192.35.39.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08638 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from crissy.gemis.ge.com ([3.29.7.57]) by ns.ge.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21732; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:58:12 -0500 Received: from salem.ge.com (carsdb.salem.ge.com [3.29.7.15]) by crissy.gemis.ge.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA19182; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:58:08 -0500 Received: from combs.salem.ge.com by salem.ge.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05330; Fri, 22 Mar 96 17:58:08 EST Received: from localhost (steve@localhost) by combs.salem.ge.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA07563; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:58:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:58:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Stephen F. Combs" Reply-To: CombsSF@salem.ge.com To: Nate Williams Cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Crash advice needed (long) APPENDIX A In-Reply-To: <199603222151.OAA20160@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry Guys, I started with a 1542A (circa 1989) with internal AND external devices. I'm useing a CF now, but I've used 1542A's, 1542B's, AND 1542CF's. ---- Stephen F. Combs Internet: CombsSF@Salem.GE.COM GE DS&TC Voice: 540.387.8828 Network Services Home: CombsSF-Home@Salem.GE.COM 1501 Roanoke Blvd FAX: 540.387.7106 Salem, VA 24153 On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:51:02 -0700 > From: Nate Williams > To: Terry Lambert > Cc: hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Crash advice needed (long) APPENDIX A > > > > Apart from the fact that 20' is too long (3m max for fast-SCSI, 1542C is > > > a Fast capable controller that will try to use 10Mbytes/sec with a Fast > > > device) Adaptecs tend to work better if the controller is at the end of > > > the SCSI bus. So, either use the internal or external connector but not > > > both at the same time > > > > Using both busses is not a problem for the CF; the C and prior can > > only successfully use the internal or the external unless there is > > a modification (invloving a capacitor and a resistor soldered on near > > the external connector). > > Bzzt. Thanks for playing, but no dice. I've run my 1542B (which was > *very* much prior to the C model) with internal/external devices since a > month after I got it. I updated to the most recent BIOS revsion before > I did that, but I've had no problems that have been due to my board. > It's worked flawlessly running SCSI-I and SCSI-II disks, tapes, and CD's > externally. (Though I haven't yet stuck a scanner on it. That'll be > the next project. :) > > Termination seems to be less critical on older SCSI devices, as I ran > with the adapter terminated, external devices, and with both my internal > drives terminated until I got my new disk a year and a half ago. Now I > have to run everything properly terminated, and have added an external > 4MM DAT w/out problems. > > I'm running a mixture of SCSI-I and SCSI-II peripherals if that makes > any difference. > > Termination <-> External S2-DAT <-> 1542B <-> Quantum 1.8G S2 \ > <-> Quantum 40MB S1 <-> Tanberg 150 S1/S2(?) <-> NEC 3X CD <-> > Termination > > My Tandberg claims to be a SCSI-II device, but I don't think it is. > > > > Nate > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 15:45:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA12737 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from jhome.DIALix.COM (root@jhome.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.69]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12698 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.DIALix.oz.au (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by jhome.DIALix.COM (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA07395; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 07:43:56 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199603222343.HAA07395@jhome.DIALix.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: jhome.DIALix.COM: Host peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: John Polstra cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new sup server In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:37:17 PST." <199603222137.NAA26670@austin.polstra.com> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 07:43:55 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Jordan wrote: > >> > I suspect that Jordan will be trimming off sup's from non-official-mirror >> > sites real soon now to reduce the load on freefall and the T1. >> >> You suspect correctly. > >PLEASE don't do that yet! I am telling you again: the sup mirrors still >do NOT work right. Am I the only one that thinks that using sup to feed the sup mirrors is *extemely* prone to error? The script that is run on freefall takes anywhere between 1.5 and 3 hours to run (depending on what other cron jobs are running in parallel). That's only a 5 hour window of relative safety for the sup mirrors to try and get a clean copy. And, if something goes wrong and a file is damaged on the mirror but the timestamp is not touched, then it stays damaged. And if something happens like the supscan being run from a different directory, it's a disaster. (eg: freefall's sup having src/ prefixes and a mirror doing the supscan inside the src directory with no prefix.) CTM would be *far* better to feed the mirrors with, if only it preserved the timestamps of the files. (phk: hint hint! :-) (note: I'm only suggesting the possibility of geting the data to the mirrors via ctm, not suggesting that the mirrors stop providing sup access once they've got the data.. big difference..) I initially got my source via sup, but after several sup botches (way back at about the 2.0.5 era), I tried CTM. and have *never* had the slightest hiccup in about a thousand deltas. CTM can be a bit of a pain if you're using it on a live source tree, but for mirrors, having the md5 checksums and the sanity checks that go along with it is essential for mirroring. Unfortunately, the lack of timestamp preservation pretty much rules out ctm if it's for a mirrored sup-server which depends on the timestamps. Cheers, -Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 16:26:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA15161 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15155 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:26:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA03625; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:18:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603230018.RAA03625@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Crash advice needed (long) APPENDIX A To: CombsSF@salem.ge.com Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:18:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Stephen F. Combs" at Mar 22, 96 05:58:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sorry Guys, I started with a 1542A (circa 1989) with internal AND external > devices. I'm useing a CF now, but I've used 1542A's, 1542B's, AND > 1542CF's. [ ... ] > > > Using both busses is not a problem for the CF; the C and prior can > > > only successfully use the internal or the external unless there is > > > a modification (invloving a capacitor and a resistor soldered on near > > > the external connector). > > > > Bzzt. Thanks for playing, but no dice. I've run my 1542B (which was > > *very* much prior to the C model) with internal/external devices since a > > month after I got it. I updated to the most recent BIOS revsion before > > I did that, but I've had no problems that have been due to my board. > > It's worked flawlessly running SCSI-I and SCSI-II disks, tapes, and CD's > > externally. (Though I haven't yet stuck a scanner on it. That'll be > > the next project. :) Maybe it was just the C, then? Help! Rod! 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 16:55:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA16881 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA16873 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA32215; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:53:26 +1100 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:53:26 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603230053.LAA32215@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, pst@shockwave.com Subject: Re: modloaded block/char device drivers Cc: bde@FreeBSD.ORG, bugs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jmz@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >It seems to me, we need something like a top half and a bottom half of >the kdc, the top half stays with the driver (i.e. belongs to qcam or lpt) >and the bottom half stays with the hardware. Then opening either device >would lock out the other device. Using open to lock the device doesn't work so well for network devices. We already have many warty examples: slip, ppp and plip. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 16:57:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA17052 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nikhefh.nikhef.nl (nikhefh.nikhef.nl [192.16.199.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA17046 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl [192.16.185.38] by nikhefh.nikhef.nl with SMTP id BA23488; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 01:56:58 +0100 Received: by paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 01:56:58 +0100 Message-Id: <9603230056.BA08477@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 01:56:58 +0100 From: bouvere@nikhefk.nikhef.nl (Ferdinand de Bouvere) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: kernel printf() Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kernel routines that call printf(), seem not to use the dedicated kernel routine printf(), as the %r and %b options are not recognized. This printf(), that actually calls kprintf(), is defined in kern/subr_prf.c Any comment ? Ferdi, From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 16:59:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA17174 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from edna.bus.net (edna.bus.net [207.41.24.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA17169 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by edna.bus.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA11175; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:58:18 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:58:18 -0500 (EST) From: "Chuck O'Donnell" To: "Christoph P. Kukulies" cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: last, who In-Reply-To: <199603222005.VAA00359@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Christoph P. Kukulies wrote: > Under which circumstances can it happen that the 'last' command > shows "still logged in" while 'who' doesn't show that person as > logged in ? > (2.2-current). > > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de > Usually ftpd will do this if you don't set your timeout in inetd (-t600 or something). I think most other services time out automatically? Regards, Chuck From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 17:02:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA17443 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17438 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:02:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA21156; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:48:30 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199603230118.LAA21156@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: 2.1R and COMPAT_LINUX To: julian@ref.tfs.com (JULIAN Elischer) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:48:29 +1030 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603220702.XAA20902@ref.tfs.com> from "JULIAN Elischer" at Mar 21, 96 11:02:48 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk JULIAN Elischer stands accused of saying: > > I didn't pay attention at teh time, but.. > does 2.1R have linux capabilities? > I can't remember when it started working? > there is an FAQ soemwhere.. > any idea where? 2.1R will run Linux-doom, and some other Linux commercial applications. It's just not very good at it; -stable is a bit better, and -current _lots_ better 8) > julian -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 17:37:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA19195 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA19175 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA22625; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:35:27 -0800 (PST) To: John Polstra cc: freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.org, jkh@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: new sup server In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:37:17 PST." <199603222137.NAA26670@austin.polstra.com> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:35:27 -0800 Message-ID: <22623.827544927@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > PLEASE don't do that yet! I am telling you again: the sup mirrors still > do NOT work right. Don't worry, I'm in no hurry to do this and, as I told Garrett, will not be cutting off key contributors, simply redundant mirrors when the time comes. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 18:12:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA20771 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA20766 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA02403; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:00:30 +1100 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:00:30 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603230200.NAA02403@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > In any case, a linear congruential search for the boundry conditions >> > followed by a binary search could easily find the last sector on >> > any device for you. ... >> >> How big is the chance that this will jam an good ol' ``dumb'' drive? >A plain binary search will fail at twice address wrap boundry; that's >why you can't start at 32 bit and work down with a vanilla binary >search. I think it won't quite work on many ESDI drives. IIRC _part_ of the cylinder beyond the last cylinder was readable but not writable on my drives, and the last readable and writable cylinder was one more than the number reported by the BIOS. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 18:14:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA20893 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:14:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA20888 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA02853; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:09:24 +1100 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:09:24 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603230209.NAA02853@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Cc: andreas@knobel.gun.de, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Anyway, the driver for old MFM drives should use the geometry reported >> by the BIOS, and FreeBSD's wd driver does so, modulo bugs. >I think the complaint on that was that there are "wasted cylinders". I More than that. >> >No, but I see that the slice code forces a translated world view >> >... >> The slice only advises about the geometry. The translated world >> ... ^code >I still can't install on a WD1007 with sector sparing enabled, and >it's because of the translation assumptions. 8-(. I would prefer Yes, it's because the wd driver trusts the geometry reported by the drive, and telling the drive to use the geometry that it reported doesn't work right at least if the WD1007 is jumpered to use a fixed geometry (I think setting the geometry doesn't work, but no error is reported). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 18:55:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA23082 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ponder (ponder.csci.unt.edu [129.120.3.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23077 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from poseidon.csci.unt.edu by ponder (5.61/1.36) id AA13686; Fri, 22 Mar 96 20:55:44 -0600 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 20:53:41 +0000 () From: Don Shin To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-help@FreeBSD.org Subject: Driver for Cabletron E2100 ethernet card? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We have about 20 80486 machines equipped with Cabletron E2100 cards. Is there anyone who have tried to port or develop a driver for this card on FreeBSD? Linux does support this card, but we'd like to use FreeBSD (we have 2 Pentium machines running FreeBSD 2.1 with 3c509). If none tried, how can I port a Linux driver to FreeBSD? Is it hard or does it require some kind of technical data books? Any suggestions or helps are welcome. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ BOX 13886 (Dongil Shin) INTERNET: dshin@cs.unt.edu Dept. of Comp. Sci. UUCP : ...uunet!ponder.csci.unt.edu!dshin Univ. of North Texas VOICE : 817-565-2088 (Office) 817-591-1129 (Home) Denton, TX 76203-3886 OFFICE : GAB 542 A From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 19:44:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA25823 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:44:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dw3f.ess.harris.com (dw3f.ess.harris.com [130.41.9.242]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA25774 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:43:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from suw2k.hisd.harris.com (borg [158.147.23.50]) by dw3f.ess.harris.com (8.6.9/mdb(941103)) with SMTP id WAA19190 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:41:54 -0500 Received: by suw2k.hisd.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19356; Fri, 22 Mar 96 22:40:35 EST Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 22:40:35 EST From: jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com (James Leppek) Message-Id: <9603230340.AA19356@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: pccard stuff Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk the following is NOT a flame, criticism, or anything remotely resembling a complaint, ok, its alpha and I know what that means. (its been a long week, mountain dew levels dropping....) We now return to our story :-) Well I still had my notebook at 2.1 Release so I thought I would give the pcmcia stuff a try. got it, read it, untarred it, built it. "good so far" says I ..... Soooo I reboot and my pcmcia 3c589 which always worked using zp0 is not recognized as a nep0. Hmmmmmm an lsdev shows it as unconfigured I pop in a megahertz xj2288 card, machine beeps, message says "card inserted" looks good, start seyon, strange sounds of angels singing in the background and the room is bathed in a glow, IT IS ALIVE, IT WORKS. nice job guys, I like it :-) now the pcmcia 3c589B is no joy, what are the important relationships between nep0 kernel device, zp0 (which I now commented out), and the pccard.conf file. the kernel spits out the following: Card inserted, slot 1 Card inserted, slot 0 Map I/O 0x2e8 (size 0x8) on Window 0 Map I/O 0x300 (size 0x10) on Window 0 0x300 is the address of the 3com anyone else playing with this, I will have my hands on an adaptec slimscsi monday and at the least wanted to have a little practice. thanks, Jim Leppek From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 20:09:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA27009 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 20:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from DATAPLEX.NET (SHARK.DATAPLEX.NET [199.183.109.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA27002 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 20:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 199.183.109.242 by DATAPLEX.NET with SMTP (MailShare 1.0fc5); Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:27:36 -0600 Message-ID: Date: 22 Mar 1996 21:20:12 -0600 From: "Richard Wackerbarth" Subject: Re(2): new sup server To: "freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG" , "hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Peter Wemm" X-Mailer: Mail*Link PT/Internet 1.6.0 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Wemm wrote: > Am I the only one that thinks that using sup to feed the sup mirrors is > *extemely* prone to error? [snip] > CTM would be *far* better to feed the mirrors with, if only it preserved the > timestamps of the files. (phk: hint hint! :-) > > (note: I'm only suggesting the possibility of geting the data to the mirrors > via ctm, not suggesting that the mirrors stop providing sup access once > they've got the data.. big difference..) >Unfortunately, the lack of timestamp preservation pretty much rules out ctm if it's for a mirrored sup-server which depends on the timestamps. Well, I totally agree. And I have a suggestion that would be very easy to implement. All we need to do is add a directive to ctm to set the timestamps to a FIXED time for that update. That way ALL the sup mirrors, and anyone else who gets the ctm update, would have the same time for each file, namely the timestamp associated with the last ctm update of that file. This method of update would also eliminate the problem of staggering access. All mirrors would get updated about the same time, whether it was ten minutes or ten hours after the run started on the master host. It would also have the additional advantage that I could use sup to bring my personal tree up-to-date and immediately switch to ctm to continue future updates. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 21:54:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA01701 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fw.ast.com (fw.ast.com [165.164.6.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA01693 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nemesis by fw.ast.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0u0Lpt-0007zaC; Fri, 22 Mar 96 23:25 CST Received: by nemesis.lonestar.org (Smail3.1.27.1 #20) id m0u0LlJ-000DYmC; Fri, 22 Mar 96 23:21 WET Message-Id: Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 23:21 WET To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org From: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV) Sent: Fri Mar 22 1996, 23:21:13 CST Subject: Crash advice needed APPENDIX B Cc: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for all the responses to my query. However, it seems that some other peoples ancedotal experiences got merged with my symptoms and now people think I have hardware I don't have. I'll try to clarify the config and respond to as many of the questions as I can. 1. The system has a 1540B as stated in the original posting, not a 1542C or CF. It is a 1540B. (No floppy controller on board.) I have been using Rev H boards until tonight when I switched to a Rev J to see if that makes any difference. 2. I was using MCODE F3F7 BIOS BC00 throughout most of the tests since changing the SCSI card was one of the last things I tried. I then switched to a 1540B rev H with MCODE 3054 BIOS BD00. Based on 30 hours, this change increased the failure rate dramatically, and ALL of the failures with this second board were panics IDENTICAL to this one: Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode fault virtual address = 0x10 fault code = supervisor read, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf01953dc (_Xintr15+some) code segment: base=0x0, limit 0xfffff, type=0x1b DPL=0, pres 1, def32 1 gran 1 processor eflags = resume IOPL=0 current process = Idle Interrupt mask = (nothing) panic: page fault syncing disks... (which fails to occur) While this microcode was in place, uptime fell to about three hours per crash and there have been four crashes. (I am not here constantly, so the system just sat at one panic for several hours.) This sharp increase in panics may indicate some sort of incompatibility with FreeBSD and this particular revision of Adaptec Microcode. According to Adaptec it is the latest firmware, although it is dated two or three years ago. This SCSI issue may need serious investigation. 3. This evening, I switched to a 1540B Rev J card with a MCODE 3054 BIOS BD00 to see if the failure rate goes down at least to previous levels. This is the third SCSI card tried. This config has only been up three hours (it has seven hours of catch-up so it is busy) but this isn't long enough for any conclusions. 4. The SCSI cabling consists of an internal ribbon-style cable (which has now been replaced three times) no longer than 18". The sole internal device is connected to the last connector. There are only three connectors TOTAL on the cable. The external cable is a round shielded cable with molded CHAMP 50 connectors on each end which came with the Archive 2150eS. This cable is approx 6' long. I do not have another cable to try in this position, but as a next step, I will completely remove the tape drive from the system and terminate the 1540B. The 2150eS uses a CHAMP-50 plug terminator, which is installed on the back of the drive cabinet and clamped in position. So total SCSI length is under 8 Feet. 5. Termination resistors are NOT installed on the 1540B. For those curious about 1540B settings: J5 1 8 9 11 J6 1 J7 2 J9 2 6 14 which translates into: J5 1 Synchronous Transfer 8 DMA 1 (factory setting) 9 IRQ select 0 11 IRQ select 2 (9+11 and 14 in J9 == IRQ15) (DMA transfer speed is set to 5.0MB/s since no jumpers are in place) J6 1 BIOS Enable J7 2 I/O port 0x330 J9 2 DRQ 5 6 DACK 5 14 IRQ 15 6. Someone asked about the settings on the Barracuda, which is a ST12550N (not a NW or ND). The jumpers are: J4-9-10 Delay motor start (10 sec * ID) J01- 2-4 Terminator power from pin 26 on the SCSI bus. The resistor packs are installed (never removed). The drive selected as controller 0. If someone thinks drive power for termination would be better, I'll try it. In answer to another question, the above settings prevent the Barracuda from supplying terminating power to the bus. Oh, and the drive has no fear of overheating. It is mounted in a 5.25" bay with 1/2" slot free below and a full slot free above. Brackets and chassis were drilled to increase air flow. The system cover has been off since this exercise began. 7. It has been suggested that I remove the cache. I'll just mention that the cache and the board it is plugged-into were both replaced earlier and there was no change in failure rate. Further, this board/cache has no trouble with SCO UNIX, Windows '95 and Windows NT which have all run on it previously (for weeks at a time under heavy stress-loads using a program called "evildisk" which is used to qualify hard disk drives). The CPU also ran 1.1.5.1 and 2.0.5 which some crashes, but not nearly the volume. Why would the cache "detect" 2.1.0 and fail on cue? Granted, FreeBSD 2.0.5 did not like the cache when booting a compressed kernel. It would always fail during uncompression. This was fixed in 2.1.0 and I have seen no other solid errors of that type. However, if other substitutions and removals do not correct the problem, I will pull the cache module for a period of time. Note that I also have three types of cache module I can try: Intel 64K and 128K parts, and IDTs pin-compatible 128K version. The IDT version happens to be the kind I have been using to date, not the Intel one. (Yes, I do have lots of parts around.) 8. Yes, the 486DX CPU has been replaced. It was exchanged when the cache was exchanged. The problem remained. 9. Someone suggested the EISA config might be strange. Just a reminder that the motherboard was replaced and with it the non-volatile EISA/CMOS settings. Also, there are no timing adjustments available via System Configuration/CMOS tools on this system. The ISA bus runs at 8.33MHz. 10. Someone suggested reseating all socketed parts. In effect, all boards with parts in them have been replaced, so ALL parts have been replaced, except peripherals. 11. Someone suggested building a new kernel with "options DIAGNOSTIC", but didn't mention what this will do to/for me. I will go ahead and do this and switch to it on the next crash, which should be about 1AM or 5AM if we stick to our time table. So there we are, perhaps this will eliminate some of the stranger stuff people were thinking and help focus things down to a short list of things to try. Near term, the list appears to be: 1. Switch to DIAGNOSTIC kernel. Won't fix anything, but will hopefully scream louder. 2. Switch to old BIOS/MCODE on 1540B SCSI adapter. 3. Switch SCSI adapter to a different IRQ as this might be a problem with spurious interrupt on the master controller and the SCSI driver not dealing with it well. (Two people suggested getting it off IRQ 15.) IRQ 12 is used by the PS/2 mouse, but IRQ 9 is free since the network card was removed. No other IRQs are available on the master interrupt controller. 4. Abandon Synchronous transfer capability on SCSI adapter. 5. Remove cache. About a 30% system performance hit, but I will try it. 6. Disconnect floppies. Might have to leave one to keep BIOS from freaking, and this seems like a long shot since the floppy drives aren't being used. 7. Switch to ALL SCSI. Expensive at this point in the game, and nobody should have to abandon IDE since it works fine on many other operating systems. 8. By Pentium-class system from Rod. Ah, yes. Well that might happen once the Triton IIs are stable, but it can't happen today. Again, thanks to all who offered suggestions, even the insane ones! :-) No, I can't afford a dual-processor Alpha. Besides, it doesn't run FreeBSD today! Frank Durda IV |"Microsoft Support, can I help or uhclem%nemesis@rwsystr.nkn.net | you?" "Yeah, yuck, yuck, I'd | like to talk to Bill." "Just or ...letni!rwsys!nemesis!uhclem | a minute..." From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 22:17:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA02418 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA02411 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA20963; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:17:27 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:17:27 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603230617.XAA20963@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com (James Leppek) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: pccard stuff In-Reply-To: <9603230340.AA19356@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> References: <9603230340.AA19356@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well I still had my notebook at 2.1 Release so I thought I > would give the pcmcia stuff a try. got it, read it, untarred it, built it. > "good so far" says I ..... > > Soooo I reboot and my pcmcia 3c589 which always worked using zp0 > is not recognized as a nep0. Hmmmmmm > an lsdev shows it as unconfigured Hmm, the pccard boot floppy from a couple weeks back correctly found my card, though it didn't find my modem card since it's not one of the 'known' ones. :( > I pop in a megahertz xj2288 card, machine beeps, message says > "card inserted" looks good, > start seyon, strange sounds of angels singing in > the background and the room is bathed in a glow, IT IS ALIVE, IT WORKS. > nice job guys, I like it :-) We have the opposite experience. > now the pcmcia 3c589B is no joy, what are the important > relationships between nep0 kernel device, zp0 (which I now commented out), > and the pccard.conf file. Which version of the Nomad release are you using? Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 22:21:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA02592 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA02581 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:21:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603230621.WAA02581@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: Host localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV) cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Crash advice needed APPENDIX B In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:21:00 +0700." Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:21:52 -0800 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In answer to another question, the above settings prevent the > Barracuda from supplying terminating power to the bus. > > Oh, and the drive has no fear of overheating. It is mounted > in a 5.25" bay with 1/2" slot free below and a full slot free > above. Brackets and chassis were drilled to increase air flow. > The system cover has been off since this exercise began. Having the cover off usually decreases the air flow around your drives since there is no negative pressure created by the fans in your case to pull air in through the face plate and over the drive. I don't think this is your problem though, but you may want to keep this in mind in the future. > 1. Switch to DIAGNOSTIC kernel. Won't fix anything, but > will hopefully scream louder. This won't help you track down the problem. I would suggest modifying the driver so that it reuses the mailboxes in FIFO order off the free list (use a TAILQ). This supposedly fixed a problem on some bt cards that had similar symptoms. >Frank Durda IV |"Microsoft Support, can I help >or uhclem%nemesis@rwsystr.nkn.net | you?" "Yeah, yuck, yuck, I'd > | like to talk to Bill." "Just >or ...letni!rwsys!nemesis!uhclem | a minute..." > > -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 22:27:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA02858 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA02837 Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA26014; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:23:23 -0800 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199603230623.WAA26014@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Crash advice needed APPENDIX B To: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:23:23 -0800 (PST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org In-Reply-To: from "Frank Durda IV" at Mar 22, 96 11:21:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ... > 6. Someone asked about the settings on the Barracuda, which is a > ST12550N (not a NW or ND). The jumpers are: > J4-9-10 Delay motor start (10 sec * ID) > J01- 2-4 Terminator power from pin 26 on the SCSI bus. > The resistor packs are installed (never removed). > The drive selected as controller 0. > > If someone thinks drive power for termination would be better, > I'll try it. Termination power from the drive is far far far far better... > In answer to another question, the above settings prevent the > Barracuda from supplying terminating power to the bus. That is fine and also desireable, it also happens to keep scsi bus induced noise from getting into the termination on the drive. ... > > 7. It has been suggested that I remove the cache. I'll just > mention that the cache and the board it is plugged-into were > both replaced earlier and there was no change in failure rate. > Further, this board/cache has no trouble with SCO UNIX, > Windows '95 and Windows NT which have all run on it previously > (for weeks at a time under heavy stress-loads using a program > called "evildisk" which is used to qualify hard disk drives). > The CPU also ran 1.1.5.1 and 2.0.5 which some crashes, but not > nearly the volume. Why would the cache "detect" 2.1.0 and fail > on cue? Because SCO Unix, Windows 95 and Windows NT are all gross in the way they handled bus master DMA disk controllers, they use a dedicated buffer area that is marked uncacheable just so they can run on the broken cache coherency motherboards. Can you say totally defeat the purpose of bus master DMA buy having the processor bcopy data around... > Granted, FreeBSD 2.0.5 did not like the cache when booting > a compressed kernel. It would always fail during uncompression. > This was fixed in 2.1.0 and I have seen no other solid > errors of that type. Big indication your board does infact have a cache coherency problem. > 8. By Pentium-class system from Rod. Ah, yes. Well that > might happen once the Triton IIs are stable, but it can't > happen today. I like this option for some strange reason :-) :-) :-) I tried again today to get PCI/I-P55T2P4 status from ASUS, but they had no new news for me :-(. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 22:52:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA04153 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA04144 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id PAA23456; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:52:06 +0900 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:52:06 +0900 Message-Id: <199603230652.PAA23456@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: pccard stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 22 Mar 96 22:40:35 EST. <9603230340.AA19356@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <9603230340.AA19356@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com writes: >> Soooo I reboot and my pcmcia 3c589 which always worked using zp0 >> is not recognized as a nep0. Hmmmmmm >> an lsdev shows it as unconfigured I'm writing this mail via 3c589b on my Digital Hinote Ultra CS433 :-). What's the machine are you using? Is the PCIC of your machine PD-6710? I remember that Some PD-6710 machines fails to probe 3c589 until pccard-test-9602xx. This problem was fixed at 960308. What version are you using? The latest one is 960318 (and we will release new one based on 2.2-960321-SNAP). >> anyone else playing with this, I will have my hands on an adaptec slimscsi >> monday and at the least wanted to have a little practice. SlimSCSI now works fine with my Digital Hinote Ultra CS433 w/ 2.2-960303-SNAP + pcccard-test-960318 + a minor bug-fix patch. But the numberring of /dev/cd? is not correct (if you disconnect and reconnect the card) and it needs the modifications of /sys/scsi stuffs to fix this problem. -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 22 23:33:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA07678 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:33:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA07668 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA15479 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:33:05 -0800 (PST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Don't grab the 2.2-960321-SNAP! Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 23:33:05 -0800 Message-ID: <15476.827566385@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Last minute testing of the CD version revealed a few truly annoying bugs, which I've now fixed. There was also the problem with tzsetup (as documented in KNOWN_BUGS) which Joerg has now fixed, so all these factors together have compelled me to blow away the early release on ftp.cdrom.com and start re-rolling it. I don't like doing this, and I hardly like re-rolling everything when I was 99% finished, but these are extenuating circumstances. Sorry about all this, but at least take some comfort in the fact that the snapshot I'm rolling now (2.2-960322-SNAP) will be that much better, and without any known bugs like the broken tzsetup. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 02:20:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA13642 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 02:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA13637 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 02:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0u0QQx-0003wNC; Sat, 23 Mar 96 02:20 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA07430; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 08:00:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: Peter Wemm cc: John Polstra , jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new sup server In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Mar 1996 07:43:55 +0800." <199603222343.HAA07395@jhome.DIALix.COM> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 08:00:37 +0000 Message-ID: <7428.827568037@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Am I the only one that thinks that using sup to feed the sup mirrors is > *extemely* prone to error? no. > CTM would be *far* better to feed the mirrors with, if only it preserved the > timestamps of the files. (phk: hint hint! :-) Well, >anybody< could implement that, hint hint! :-) > I initially got my source via sup, but after several sup botches (way back at > about the 2.0.5 era), I tried CTM. and have *never* had the slightest hiccup > in about a thousand deltas. :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 02:21:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA13720 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 02:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA13701 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 02:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0u0QQT-0003wAC; Sat, 23 Mar 96 02:20 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA07571; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 08:20:07 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: "Richard Wackerbarth" cc: "freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG" , "hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Peter Wemm" Subject: Re: Re(2): new sup server In-reply-to: Your message of "22 Mar 1996 21:20:12 CST." Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 08:20:06 +0000 Message-ID: <7569.827569206@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > [peter] > > CTM would be *far* better to feed the mirrors with, if only it preserved the > > timestamps of the files. (phk: hint hint! :-) > > [rkw] > Well, I totally agree. And I have a suggestion that would be very easy to > implement. > > All we need to do is add a directive to ctm to set the timestamps to a FIXED > time for that update. That way ALL the sup mirrors, and anyone else who gets > the ctm update, would have the same time for each file, namely the timestamp > associated with the last ctm update of that file. Hmm, nice idea... There already is a nice timestamp in the top of an CTM delta, perfectly suitable for that. Good thinking! Send me a patch asap! :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 03:04:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA15318 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 03:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA15313 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 03:04:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0u0QQf-0003wLC; Sat, 23 Mar 96 02:20 PST Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA07474; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 08:02:36 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: bouvere@nikhefk.nikhef.nl (Ferdinand de Bouvere) cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf() In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Mar 1996 01:56:58 +0100." <9603230056.BA08477@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 08:02:35 +0000 Message-ID: <7472.827568155@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Kernel routines that call printf(), seem not to use the > dedicated kernel routine printf(), as the %r and %b options > are not recognized. %r has been removed. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 03:13:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA15681 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 03:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from zit1.zit.th-darmstadt.de (zit1.zit.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.63.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA15659 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 03:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.83.63.13] (apfel.zit.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.63.13]) by zit1.zit.th-darmstadt.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA04112; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:13:23 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: petzi@zit1.zit.th-darmstadt.de Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:13:29 +0100 To: John Polstra From: petzi@zit.th-darmstadt.de (Michael Beckmann) Subject: Re: new sup server Cc: freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I am telling you again: the sup mirrors still >do NOT work right. I must agree with that. I tried to run a sup mirror in Germany, but have never been able to make world or build a kernel with the sources from that mirror. There has always been corruption of the source tree. Due to the highly loaded intercontinental lines, the sup updates from Freefall can take several hours, and in rare cases, (in particular if freefall doesn't let me in due to its ten user limit) they aren't finished until next night. It appears that the situation has improved somewhat with the new Internet connection of Freefall, though, which doesn't route through MCI/BBNPlanet any more. I would really like to provide some service for up-to-date FreeBSD sources in Europe, but sup simply doesn't work right under these conditions. I wouldn't mind the updates taking several hours, but I do mind getting garbled sources. They cost me a lot of time already. Michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 09:43:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA29966 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sierra.zyzzyva.com (root@ppp0.zyzzyva.com [198.183.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA29943 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:43:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from zyzzyva.com (randy@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sierra.zyzzyva.com (8.7.4/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA12548; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:42:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603231742.LAA12548@sierra.zyzzyva.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: IDE install In-reply-to: jkh's message of Fri, 22 Mar 1996 01:37:27 -0800. <19501.827487447@time.cdrom.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-install@freebsd.org X-uri: http://www.zyzzyva.com/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:42:50 -0600 From: Randy Terbush Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 2. Could not seem to mount the fixit.flp. > > Hmmm. Symptoms? I've managed to use it myself, though no one would > say that it's not somewhat unwieldy.. > > Jordan More on this and another couple of strange issues that would be nice to solve.... As Jordan probably remembers, I originally contacted him with an oddball problem when trying to boot from the install floppy. I got the following error. > Error: C:6292878 > 1023 (BIOS Limit) After much hair tearing I figured out that I needed to have the 1.2MB floppy drive configured into the BIOS in order to successfully boot from the install floppy. Even when there is not a 1.2MB floppy available as I discovered later due to problem mentioned below. BIOS is an Award rev4.51PG Onboard Floppy Onboard PCI IDE controllers for primary and secondary. Secondary controller is disabled. Regarding mounting of the fixit.flp image: Selecting the options to mount this disk from sysinstall failed. It appears that it never makes a request of the 1.44MB drive that I booted from. This is the only floppy device on the system, however as noted above, the BIOS thinks that fd1 is a 1.2MB. Leading me to my last question: I attempted to install a new set of boot blocks to FORCE_COMCONSOLE with 'disklabel -B wd0' after recompiling the boot code from FreeBSD-stable. The result nuked my partition table and MBR on the drive forcing me to reinstall. When I installed the first time, I chose the option to use "ALL" and to not be compatible with future OS installs. The net effect seemed to be that the FreeBSD partition begins with the first cylinder instead of an offset of 1 cyl. What did I do wrong here? Guidance appreciated. I'm CCing this to hackers and install. Since I am new to these lists, please go easy if this is inappropriate. Feel free to forward to other lists that should be seeing this. -Randy From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 11:26:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA05337 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:26:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA05316 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:26:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA12385; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:26:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199603231926.LAA12385@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: Bruce Evans cc: andreas@knobel.gun.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, julian@ref.tfs.com Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:26:12 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans writes: >>>> But the problem is, fdisk doesn't seem to enable disklabel to >>>> do it's job. >>>can you say more? did you try rebooting between the two? >>Whoa. No. Is -that- it? The magic bullet I have been looking for? >Perhaps. fdisk writes tables to the disk and doesn't use the ioctl to >tell the system that the disk has changed. Great. >However, the system reads >the tables of the disk on the next open of a device on the disk provided >no other device on the disk is already open. The raw device? So all I have to do is fdisk this again? ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< "If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius, 121-180 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 11:42:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA06345 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:42:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA06340 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA12618; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:42:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199603231942.LAA12618@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: J Wunsch cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:42:08 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: >As Dave Hayes wrote: >> >fdisk is far from being optimal -- but what exactly ``doesn't work >> >reliably''? >> I have found that I can Fdisk a disk, but subsequent disklabel will >> refuse to write a label that the OS can read. >How did you write it? > disklabel -B -r -w sd1s1 foobar >should work. For first-time initialization, the ``-r'' is mandatory. The "-r" fails due to an "invalid device" error. NOT using "-r" seems to work for the program's sake, but does nothing for the disk. ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< People who think they know all are often insufferable. Rather like those who imagine that they know nothing. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 11:46:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA06633 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:46:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA06628 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:46:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA12669; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:44:44 -0800 Message-Id: <199603231944.LAA12669@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: J Wunsch cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:44:39 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: >Andreas was wrong here. Fdisk needs the geometry the BIOS is using -- >not the geometry the disk claims to be. (The latter is largely >irrelevant, that's why it's hidden by default. Anyways, it cannot be >expressed in plain C/H/S for any modern disk.) Given the nature of the dissention about what this geometry really means, isn't there a sufficiently powerful abstraction one can use to represent the information that fdisk and disklabel need...one that covers all drives? If you have that, writing any user inferface is MUCH easier. ------ >>> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org <<< If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them. -Henry David Thoreau From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 11:59:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA07197 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA07192 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA14092; Sat, 23 Mar 96 14:58:36 -0500 From: Kaleb KEITHLEY Received: by exalt.x.org id TAA10274; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:58:31 GMT Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:58:31 GMT Message-Id: <199603231958.TAA10274@exalt.x.org> To: kevin@x.org Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: [Q]C++ IDE for X86Free. Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.x References: <4itag9$1erf@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #5 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Seen in comp.os.linux.x: >>Is there a C++/G++ IDE available for the XWindows environment? Any >>information will be appreciated... >> >try xWPE (windows programming environment. It is already installed on >RedHat...and has wpe, we xwpe, and xwe, with x, and with or without the >programming features (highlighting, etc.) I think it's great! -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 12:55:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA10070 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA10062 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rmallory@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA04580; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:59:35 -0800 From: Rob Mallory Message-Id: <199603232059.MAA04580@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: CDROM Recorders To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:59:35 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, klam@awod.com In-Reply-To: <199603220811.JAA17517@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Mar 22, 96 09:11:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As Ken Lam wrote: > > > I am about to order a CDROM recorder, I wanted to find > > which are supported under FreeBSD. I checked in the > > LINT, FAQ, HB, but no joys there. > > Support is still rather green, and only available in -current (nor > will it creep into the 2.1 branch at all). > > By now, the Plasmon and HP recorders are known to work. Adding other > devices is intended to be possible, but you need the SCSI reference > from the vendor. > Don't get a pinnacle-micro. I've seen 3/3 unhappy pinacle customers who sent theirs back. If you know someone with resale license, get a yammaha-cde100 4x recorder for around $1300. It's got one of the most stable (not changing) bios's around. Someone will eventualy will write a driver for freebsd. burning the freebsd cdrom takes 18 mins on this puppy;) rmallory From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 13:59:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA14701 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14691 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA00249; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:59:10 -0500 From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199603232159.QAA00249@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Interesting IDE perf results To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:59:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: davidg@root.com Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I agree that SCSI is generally better for high-end solutions, but I was somewhat pleasantly suprised to see these results with a 1.6GB WD Caviar IDE drive... File './Bonnie.200', size: 20971520 Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 20 3721 70.0 5394 22.4 5964 32.4 6625 99.4 33438 99.9 972.1 26.0 File './Bonnie.206', size: 41943040 Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 40 3858 72.3 5586 23.4 2224 11.6 4901 71.9 5725 17.3 259.6 10.0 File './Bonnie.212', size: 104857600 Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 100 3837 70.6 5260 24.7 1782 9.6 4600 68.1 5482 17.4 92.7 3.8 John dyson@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 14:27:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA16076 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ter2.fl.net.au (root@ter2.fl.net.au [203.63.198.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16070 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from tiger.fl.net.au (tiger.fl.net.au [203.63.198.11]) by ter2.fl.net.au (2.0/adf) with SMTP id JAA07746 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 09:28:05 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960324192601.00ba0b9c@mail.fl.net.au> X-Sender: adf@mail.fl.net.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 09:26:01 -1000 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: Andrew Foster Subject: Unstable machine ... Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just got this off the console of a machine that crashes quite a bit. Fatal trap 12 : page fault while in kernel mode. fault virtual addr = 0x13 fault code = supervisor read, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf014a152 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x16 = DPCO, pres 1, def 32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enables, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 29434 (cp) interrupt mask = panic: page fault. Anyone know what causes this ? Thanks, Andrew Foster First Link Internet Services ----------- Andrew Foster Sydney, Australia From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 14:46:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA16962 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:46:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16950 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA01288; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:45:44 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA20142; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:45:44 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id XAA25384; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:17:26 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232217.XAA25384@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: IDE install To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:17:25 +0100 (MET) Cc: randy@zyzzyva.com Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19501.827487447@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 22, 96 01:37:27 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > 2. Could not seem to mount the fixit.flp. > > Hmmm. Symptoms? I've managed to use it myself, though no one would > say that it's not somewhat unwieldy.. I cannot be mounted once you've crashed a fixit session. (``Make sure your fixit floppy isn't write-protected.'') sysinstall should try to fsck it if mounting r/w failed. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 14:46:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA17023 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16982 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:46:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA01292; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:45:46 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA20143; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:45:45 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id XAA25412; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:20:33 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232220.XAA25412@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: kernel printf() To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:20:33 +0100 (MET) Cc: bouvere@nikhefk.nikhef.nl Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <7472.827568155@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Mar 23, 96 08:02:35 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Kernel routines that call printf(), seem not to use the > > dedicated kernel routine printf(), as the %r and %b options > > are not recognized. > > %r has been removed. %b is functional: fd0c: hard error reading fsbn 120 of 108-125 \ (ST0 40 ST1 20 ST2 20 cyl 3 hd 0 sec 13) ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ is printed by: if (fdc->flags & FDC_STAT_VALID) { printf( " (ST0 %b ST1 %b ST2 %b cyl %ld hd %ld sec %ld)\n", fdc->status[0], NE7_ST0BITS, fdc->status[1], NE7_ST1BITS, fdc->status[2], NE7_ST2BITS, fdc->status[3], fdc->status[4], fdc->status[5]); } -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 14:46:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA17040 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16993 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA01318; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:46:06 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA20154; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:46:05 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id XAA25302; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:08:36 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232208.XAA25302@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Driver for Cabletron E2100 ethernet card? To: dshin@csci.unt.edu (Don Shin) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:08:36 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-help@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Don Shin" at Mar 22, 96 08:53:41 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Don Shin wrote: > We have about 20 80486 machines equipped with Cabletron E2100 cards. > Is there anyone who have tried to port or develop a driver for this card > on FreeBSD? What exactly is it? The number suggests it might be compatible with the NE2100 card, which is actually supported by the `lnc' driver. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 14:47:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA17118 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA17112 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA01376; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:46:50 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA20175; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:46:48 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id XAA25758; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:44:05 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232244.XAA25758@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: DOSEMU Project To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:44:04 +0100 (MET) Cc: tam@clk01051.dorm.tcu.edu (Tam Weng Seng) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Tam Weng Seng" at Mar 21, 96 09:34:15 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Tam Weng Seng wrote: > My name is Tam Weng Seng, and I am a senior, Computer Science > major, here at Texas Christian University, Fort Worth, Texas. I would > like to know how I can become involved with the DOS emulation project. Funny. No response. Well, unless you've got some private replies, it seems that nobody is actually dealing with this project. So you've got to do everything yourself... Development itself takes place at the various mailing lists. Send a message with just `help' in the body to majordomo@freebsd.org. This will explain you the procedure to subscribe to the various lists. In order to become successful, you will also want to stay (more or less) -current with FreeBSD. There's a section in the handbook that describes how you can do this. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 15:20:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA18562 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:20:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18556 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA08450; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:12:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199603232312.QAA08450@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:12:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: j@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199603231944.LAA12669@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 23, 96 11:44:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Andreas was wrong here. Fdisk needs the geometry the BIOS is using -- > >not the geometry the disk claims to be. (The latter is largely > >irrelevant, that's why it's hidden by default. Anyways, it cannot be > >expressed in plain C/H/S for any modern disk.) > > Given the nature of the dissention about what this geometry really > means, isn't there a sufficiently powerful abstraction one can use > to represent the information that fdisk and disklabel need...one > that covers all drives? > > If you have that, writing any user inferface is MUCH easier. Windows 95 converts from BIOS to protected mode drivers during the boot process (to the point of causing conversion of open file handles for TSR's loaded in real mode to carry over). Conceptually, it requires alot of BIOS information to be accumulated by the boot code for use in identifying the protected mode devices BIOS equivalent drive assignments (which are not documented or stored anywhere -- they are an artifact of PSOT). You have the choice of implementing a real mode boot (/boot has been proposed) and moving the change to protected mode out of the second stage boot and into the boot program as the last thing before it starts executing kernel code... or implementing a virtual machine. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 15:21:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA18662 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18651 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA02137; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:46 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA20388; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:46 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA26125; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:08:01 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232308.AAA26125@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:08:01 +0100 (MET) Cc: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603231942.LAA12618@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 23, 96 11:42:08 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Dave Hayes wrote: > >How did you write it? > > disklabel -B -r -w sd1s1 foobar > >should work. For first-time initialization, the ``-r'' is mandatory. > > The "-r" fails due to an "invalid device" error. Perhaps your device nodes for /dev/rsd1s1* weren't in place? You should run /dev/MAKEDEV to create them. (Don't ask me for the arguments to MAKEDEV, i don't know offhand.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 15:21:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA18626 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18609 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA02141; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:48 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA20389; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:47 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA26178; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:14:41 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232314.AAA26178@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: CDROM Recorders To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:14:41 +0100 (MET) Cc: klam@awod.com Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603232059.MAA04580@wiley.csusb.edu> from "Rob Mallory" at Mar 23, 96 12:59:35 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Rob Mallory wrote: > get a yammaha-cde100 4x recorder for around $1300. > It's got one of the most stable (not changing) bios's around. > Someone will eventualy will write a driver for freebsd. burning the > freebsd cdrom takes 18 mins on this puppy;) Well, but except for mass-production, who does really care for the burning time? My Plasmon burner gets around 300 KB/s onto the CD-R (plus the fixation time), but since it doesn't restrict my usage of the machine except that i should not reboot while it is burning :), what gives? Btw., Yamaha seems to have a terrible idea of how much secret their SCSI documentation must be, and AFAIK, their burners do only have 512 KB cache. This might come pretty tight when running multi-user. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 15:21:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA18619 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18608 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA02133; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:45 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA20385; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:44 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA26090; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:05:37 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232305.AAA26090@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: IDE install To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:05:37 +0100 (MET) Cc: randy@zyzzyva.com (Randy Terbush) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603231742.LAA12548@sierra.zyzzyva.com> from "Randy Terbush" at Mar 23, 96 11:42:50 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Randy Terbush wrote: > I attempted to install a new set of boot blocks to FORCE_COMCONSOLE > with 'disklabel -B wd0' after recompiling the boot code from > FreeBSD-stable. The result nuked my partition table and MBR on > the drive forcing me to reinstall. Well, instead of reinstalling, you could have asked. :) Yes, the old disklabel(8) nuked the fdisk table when installing a new bootstrap. (I have fixed this since.) However, you don't actually need the fdisk table at all, and you might probably have noticed that your system was still able to boot into single-user. Anyway, sysinstall has been creating an /etc/fstab file with the `sliced' notion of all non-root partitions, e.g. /dev/sd0a / ufs ... ^^^^___________________________ non-sliced root f/s /dev/sd0s1b swap swawp ... /dev/sd0s1e /usr ufs ... ^^__________________________ sliced naming convention *This* was what caused it to stumple across the invalid fdisk table. (Slices [aka. ``fdisk partitions''] are only available with a valid fdisk table.) Removing the `s1' substrings from within single-user mode would have saved you. Note that ed(1) is available on the root file system. Btw., the non-sliced naming is called ``compatibility slice'', and it always refers to the first fdisk slice with an 0xa5 signature, or to the entire disk for a non-sliced disk. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 15:21:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA18640 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18635 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA02145; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:49 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA20390; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:20:49 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA26138; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:09:09 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603232309.AAA26138@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:09:09 +0100 (MET) Cc: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603231944.LAA12669@kachina.jetcafe.org> from "Dave Hayes" at Mar 23, 96 11:44:39 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Dave Hayes wrote: > Given the nature of the dissention about what this geometry really > means, isn't there a sufficiently powerful abstraction one can use > to represent the information that fdisk and disklabel need...one > that covers all drives? No, it depends on the type and brand of your SCSI adapter, IDE BIOS, etc. Sometimes even on the revision level. It is entirely a BIOS thing, FreeBSD doesn't really care for it. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 15:54:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA20242 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from cps.fvl.k12.mi.us (root@[204.38.65.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20237 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from guardian (root@cps-dialip241.fvl.k12.mi.us [204.38.65.241]) by cps.fvl.k12.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA00781 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 18:53:05 -0500 Message-ID: <31548FA1.4F2BE443@fvl.k12.mi.us> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 18:56:17 -0500 From: "Jason D. York" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 1.3.15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Kernel and PPP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am having problems. The first problem is that I cannot get the if_mod_ppp.o module to load. I cannot find out anywhere what to feed modload for the entry point of the module. The second problem may be related to the first. somehow on my installation I did not get the kernel source. I figured that if I could get ppp running I could just use /stand/sysinstall and get the kernel, but I need ppp. Anyway I would be overjoyed if you could tell me how to get that ppp module loaded so I could use pppd. I am running FreeBSD v 2.1.0. When I originally installed it, I took my harddrive over to a friend's house who has a CD-ROM drive that is supported by FreeBSD (Mine is not yet) and I installed it onto the disk. So now you see why I can't just install the stuff off the CD-ROM, Well I could but I really don't want to take the harddrive out again for something that is probably very simple. Thank you for your time, Jason D. York (york@scnc.fvl.k12.mi.us) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 18:20:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA15869 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 18:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sierra.zyzzyva.com (root@ppp0.zyzzyva.com [198.183.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15852 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 18:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from zyzzyva.com (randy@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sierra.zyzzyva.com (8.7.4/8.6.11) with ESMTP id UAA02814; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:20:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603240220.UAA02814@sierra.zyzzyva.com> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Subject: Re: IDE install In-reply-to: j's message of Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:05:37 +0100. <199603232305.AAA26090@uriah.heep.sax.de> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-uri: http://www.zyzzyva.com/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:20:02 -0600 From: Randy Terbush Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Randy Terbush wrote: > > > I attempted to install a new set of boot blocks to FORCE_COMCONSOLE > > with 'disklabel -B wd0' after recompiling the boot code from > > FreeBSD-stable. The result nuked my partition table and MBR on > > the drive forcing me to reinstall. > > Well, instead of reinstalling, you could have asked. :) Quicker to reinstall... :-) > Yes, the old disklabel(8) nuked the fdisk table when installing a new > bootstrap. (I have fixed this since.) However, you don't actually > need the fdisk table at all, and you might probably have noticed that > your system was still able to boot into single-user. Anyway, > sysinstall has been creating an /etc/fstab file with the `sliced' > notion of all non-root partitions, e.g. > > /dev/sd0a / ufs ... > ^^^^___________________________ non-sliced root f/s > /dev/sd0s1b swap swawp ... > /dev/sd0s1e /usr ufs ... > ^^__________________________ sliced naming convention > > *This* was what caused it to stumple across the invalid fdisk table. > (Slices [aka. ``fdisk partitions''] are only available with a valid > fdisk table.) Removing the `s1' substrings from within single-user > mode would have saved you. Note that ed(1) is available on the root > file system. This is not true in my case. The new boot blocks were installed with the 'disklabel' from -stable, and it would not boot single user, (except from floppy). My next question is "how do I get these new boot blocks on without doing this again?". From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 19:08:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA20823 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:08:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA20818 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:08:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA24632; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:08:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199603240308.TAA24632@austin.polstra.com> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, dima@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new sup server In-reply-to: <199603222137.NAA26670@austin.polstra.com> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:08:42 -0800 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wrote: > In several attempts spread over the past few months, I have never > yet succeeded in getting any of the sup mirrors to give me an intact > cvs tree. Invariably, they delete some of my perfectly good files, > without replacing them later on. As an example, sup5 is currently > (and repeatably) doing this to me: > > [bad stuff elided] I'm following up my own posting to report that, thanks to a lot of help from Nate and Dima, the problems I reported about sup5 are now completely solved. It works perfectly now, and I encourage people to use it. Let's hear it for the good guys! -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 19:29:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA22321 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22307 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id WAA12295; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:27:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:27:38 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Changing Ethernet frame size to 576 bytes? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone know what this guy is saying? I figured fragmentation and reassembly would happen between the FTP server's Ethernet interface and that of the router to the Internet. Is there any validity to this guy's suggestion? -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) System and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:41:22 -0800 From: Stuart Cheshire To: support@io.org Subject: Suggestion about ftp.io.org I was just trying to ftp VRMLEquinox.sea.hqx from /pub/users/ipsys/nps on your ftp site, and it is very slow. Partly this is due to overloaded links, but I also notice that your ftp server at ftp.io.org seems to be configured to send Ethernet sized (ie 1536 byte) packets, instead of the normal Internet 576 byte packets. This means that every IP packet you send has to be fragmented into three IP fragments as it travels over the Internet, and if any single one of those fragments is lost, then the other two are useless, even if they do arrive. In other words, if your link is congested and is losing 20% of the packets, then those losses make the other two fragments useless too, giving you an 'effective' loss rate of 60%. Of course, I may be wrong. It's just a guess, based on what I noticed from this end, that the ftp data seemed to be arriving in 1536 byte chunks. Stuart Cheshire * World Wide Web Page * Stanford Operating Systems and Networking Group Research Assistant * Stanford Residential Computing Associate * Macintosh Programmer From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 19:46:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA23687 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA23677 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA26704; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:42:14 +1100 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:42:14 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603240342.OAA26704@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hackers@freebsd.org, toor@dyson.iquest.net Subject: Re: Interesting IDE perf results Cc: davidg@root.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I agree that SCSI is generally better for high-end solutions, but I >was somewhat pleasantly suprised to see these results with a 1.6GB WD Caviar >IDE drive... IDE should be slightly faster provided the (total) PIO transfer speed is at least as fast as the (total) SCSI transfer speed and the drives are the same speed. The transfer speeds usually favor IDE for _one_ modern IDE controller/bus (15MB/sec) and _one_ not so modern SCSI controller (10MB/ sec). >... >File './Bonnie.212', size: 104857600 >Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... > -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- > -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- >Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU > 100 3837 70.6 5260 24.7 1782 9.6 4600 68.1 5482 17.4 92.7 3.8 Bonnie makes IDE look much better than it is by not counting interrupt overhead in %CPU. It only makes busmastering SCSI look better than it is by not counting bus overhead in %CPU :-). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 19:47:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA23753 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [204.214.4.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA23745 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from max2-172.HiWAAY.net by fly.HiWAAY.net; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id AA29099; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:47:06 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:47:12 -0600 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been following this thread for a while and with April Ist rapidly approaching I think there is something we can do about everybody typing the wrong commands or not knowing the right commands or sequences to get something done. In all likelyhood somebody else has already written the utilities I'm proposing. We need 2 new utilities, "dwim" and "dwit", Do What I Meant and Do What I'm Thinking. Dwim will be a great tool for those using classical shells and dwit will become the prefered standard shell for most users. Until somebody writes the /dev/mindreader device dwim and dwit will have to simply reply, "/dev/mindreader is nonexistant or not configured". For those of two minds /dev/mindreader needs access to both minds along similar techniques used elsewhere to differentiate between hard disk slices. /dev/mindreader will be a link to your prefered mind. I predict dwim and dwit will usher in a new era in user interfaces. And FreeBSD will be leading this era. Anyone care to write /dev/mindreader and solve (or cause) all the world's ills? Would you guess from the above my 2nd favorite web site is www.improb.com? -- David Kelly N4HHE, n4hhe@amsat.org, dkelly@hiwaay.net ============================================================= To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. - Thomas Edison From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 19:49:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA23948 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:49:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sierra.zyzzyva.com (root@ppp0.zyzzyva.com [198.183.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23925 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from zyzzyva.com (randy@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sierra.zyzzyva.com (8.7.4/8.6.11) with ESMTP id VAA03210; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:49:17 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603240349.VAA03210@sierra.zyzzyva.com> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: problem with NFS mounts Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-uri: http://www.zyzzyva.com/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:49:17 -0600 From: Randy Terbush Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a fresh install of -stable on a machine that is mounting a couple of directories on a NetBSD-current machine. Mounts are as follows. netbsd:/disks/sd2/src /usr/src netbsd:/disks/sd2/obj /usr/obj With one mount, there is no problem. With both mounts, I cannot do a listing of /usr. Listing any other partition is not a problem. Only the partition where the mounts are. 'cd' into the mounted resource hangs. 'ls' of /usr hangs. Ideas? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 20:06:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA25424 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from fw.ast.com (fw.ast.com [165.164.6.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA25417 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nemesis by fw.ast.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0u0h5F-00084cC; Sat, 23 Mar 96 22:07 CST Received: by nemesis.lonestar.org (Smail3.1.27.1 #20) id m0u0gtH-000CPpC; Sat, 23 Mar 96 21:54 WET Message-Id: Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 21:54 WET To: hackers@freebsd.org From: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV) Sent: Sat Mar 23 1996, 21:54:51 CST Subject: Re: Crash advice needed APPENDIX B Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [0]Granted, FreeBSD 2.0.5 did not like the cache when booting [0]a compressed kernel. It would always fail during uncompression. [0]This was fixed in 2.1.0 and I have seen no other solid [0]errors of that type. [1]"Rodney W. Grimes" writes: [1]Big indication your board does infact have a cache coherency problem. Not exactly, since once the system was installed on the hard disk, everything works, and serious loads (make worlds plus other stuff) all run without incident. All I would do was pull the cache during the floppy boot, install the system then stick the cache back in once the system was on the hard disk. (Didn't have to do that in 1.1.5.1 either.) Note also that three versions of the cache module from two completely different vendors exhibited this same problem on 2.0.5, and I had all the Intel erratas on the earlier parts (which I did not use), so I don't know precisely what the problem was. I do know that the cache module could be fooled by changing the state of the A20 line, or any external remapping or banking of RAM (obviously), but I assume we would turn on A20 and leave it on forever. I believe Bruce identified some flaw in the way the uncompress was being done that affected some systems with particular cache systems and a change was made on purpose for 2.1.0 that made things happy. Perhaps he will expound on what the change was. Frank Durda IV |"Now with brighter colors! or uhclem%nemesis@rwsystr.nkn.net | Whiter whites! Internet support | in all applets! Coming soon or ...letni!rwsys!nemesis!uhclem | to the commodity computer!" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 20:30:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA26662 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:30:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26623 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA28510; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:27:39 +1100 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:27:39 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603240427.PAA28510@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com, randy@zyzzyva.com Subject: Re: IDE install Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-install@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Error: C:6292878 > 1023 (BIOS Limit) >After much hair tearing I figured out that I needed to have the 1.2MB >floppy drive configured into the BIOS in order to successfully boot >from the install floppy. Even when there is not a 1.2MB floppy available >as I discovered later due to problem mentioned below. >BIOS is an Award rev4.51PG >Onboard Floppy >Onboard PCI IDE controllers for primary and secondary. >Secondary controller is disabled. Perhaps you are using the Award BIOS option to swap A: and B:. >I attempted to install a new set of boot blocks to FORCE_COMCONSOLE >with 'disklabel -B wd0' after recompiling the boot code from >FreeBSD-stable. The result nuked my partition table and MBR on >the drive forcing me to reinstall. When I installed the first time, >I chose the option to use "ALL" and to not be compatible with >future OS installs. The net effect seemed to be that the FreeBSD >partition begins with the first cylinder instead of an offset of >1 cyl. What did I do wrong here? Guidance appreciated. You used the "all" option, so you didn't "remain cooperative with any future possible operating systems on the drive(s)", including FreeBSD :-). FreeBSD-current has more details about the dangers of using "all": "This precludes the existance [sic] of any boot manager or other stuff in sector 0, since the BSD boot strap will live there". "other stuff" included the partition table in FreeBSD-2.1. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 20:35:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA27039 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from fw.ast.com (fw.ast.com [165.164.6.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA27025 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nemesis by fw.ast.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0u0hSs-00084cC; Sat, 23 Mar 96 22:31 CST Received: by nemesis.lonestar.org (Smail3.1.27.1 #20) id m0u0hRL-000CPxC; Sat, 23 Mar 96 22:30 WET Message-Id: Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 22:30 WET To: hackers@freebsd.org From: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV) Sent: Sat Mar 23 1996, 22:30:02 CST Subject: FreeBSD and MMX Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is anybody looking ahead six to nine months when the Pentium and Pentium-Pro chips with the MMX extensions start arriving in machines? For those of you who haven't hward anything about MMX, here is a real quickie summary: MMX (not an acronym) is a set of additional opcodes Intel is adding to new Pentium and Pentium Pro chips later this year. In effect, there will be Pentiums that are smarter than other Pentiums, and the same will be true in the Pentium Pro line. This already has computer-maker marketing people worrying about the possibility of ending up with the "dumber" Pentium systems left in stores when on the shelf next to them are systems with the new "smarter" Pentiums. Intel will apparently try to prevent some of this apples-to-apples comparison by bringing out the MMX chips at higher speeds than plain Pentiums (initially), and offering lower speed versions of the MMX chips later on. The MMX processor adds several new 64-bit registers to the system that are off in a corner, similar to the way the floating point registers and opcodes are handled. There are new opcodes for gettings things in and out of the new registers, plus new opcodes that perform operations on the new registers. (Again, this is real similar to how the floating point subsystem works.) According to Intels WWW FAQ, they didn't have mess with the integer microcode much, thus lowering the risk of a compatibility flaw of some sort. The new operations are all geared to things found in graphics, compression, and other repetitive algorithms. For example, it is possible to load eight 8-bit values into one of these new registers and perform eight adds simultaneously, without having the Carry bits roll over from one eight-bit value to the next. There are also some codes to do max/min type functions to avoid signed rollover. There is a flag in the chip that lets software identify the presence of the MMX subsystem, and (according to the WWW FAQ), if MMX isn't there and an application uses those opcodes, "an Intel-provided .DLL will emulate those opcodes". Yeah, if you are running Windows. - - - - - -End of summary No doubt, eventually someone will want to use these opcodes for something under FreeBSD, and the assember/compiler will get updated to support them. However, it appears that the MMX subsystem interfaces very similarly to the way the floating point operations are performed, including using the same exception mechaniams. Since it seems that FreeBSD has always kept floating point support on the back of the back burner with regard to error handling, GDB support, big fixes, etc, these weak areas may bite us when it comes to trying to handle MMX. I am no expert on the floating point situation (and really don't want to be), and things may not be as bad as people on the mailing lists have portrayed, but if things are broken or not completely implemented, we need to find some people willing to dig into floating point support and get its house in order so that when MMX becomes available, we will have most of the pieces already working. We might even have to think about doing MMX emulation, much like we do floating point emulation now. Ugh. Comments? If you are interested in MMX, the MMX Programmers Manual is available electronically at www.intel.com (under a non-obvious button on the right side of the home screen - sorry I am at a place where I can't look right now). It's in Acrobat PDF format, five or six chapters plus four appendixes, but there is a Windows viewer available you can use to print it out, or you can wait until Intel has the exact same material in available printed form. FTC, All information in this posting came from material Intel disclosed in the www.intel.com site or from the Programmers Manual. Frank Durda IV |"I can't tell the difference or uhclem%nemesis@rwsystr.nkn.net | between Whizzo butter (pointing) | this dead crab (pointing)." or ...letni!rwsys!nemesis!uhclem | - Monty Pythons' Flying Circus From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 20:45:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA27963 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA27957 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:45:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA29189; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:43:51 +1100 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:43:51 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199603240443.PAA29189@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org Subject: Re: Adding a damn 2nd disk Cc: andreas@knobel.gun.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, julian@ref.tfs.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>However, the system reads >>the tables of the disk on the next open of a device on the disk provided >>no other device on the disk is already open. >The raw device? So all I have to do is fdisk this again? Any device on the disk. It depends on whether any other device on the disk is already open. Getting the complete list of open disks seems to require looking at the output of `mount', `pstat -s' and `fstat'. An easier way to see if the tables are being refreshed is to set the kernel's `bootverbose' flag by booting with -v or using a debugger (e.g., echo 'set bootverbose=1' | gdb -k -w /kernel /dev/mem). Then the driver will print annoying messages about the tables when it refreshes them. More annoying messages can be printed by setting the kernel's `dsi_debug' flag using a debugger. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 21:03:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA28836 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:03:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from DATAPLEX.NET (SHARK.DATAPLEX.NET [199.183.109.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA28828 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from 199.183.109.242 by DATAPLEX.NET with SMTP (MailShare 1.0fc5); Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:03:44 -0600 Message-ID: Date: 23 Mar 1996 23:03:34 -0600 From: "Richard Wackerbarth" Subject: Re: Changing Ethernet frame size to 576 bytes? To: "Brian Tao" , "FREEBSD-HACKERS-L" X-Mailer: Mail*Link PT/Internet 1.6.0 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Anyone know what this guy is saying? I figured fragmentation and > reassembly would happen between the FTP server's Ethernet interface > and that of the router to the Internet. Is there any validity to this > guy's suggestion? His suggestion is valid. If the MTU is larger than the minimum MTU along the path, each packet that you send out will be broken into sub-packets and reassembled on the far end. If any subpacket gets lost, the whole packet is lost and must be retransmitted. Since tcp knows how to recover lost packets, the file eventually gets through. However, it is more efficient if your packets are not fragmented in transit. > -- > Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) > System and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. > "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:41:22 -0800 > From: Stuart Cheshire > To: support@io.org > Subject: Suggestion about ftp.io.org > > I was just trying to ftp VRMLEquinox.sea.hqx from /pub/users/ipsys/nps > on your ftp site, and it is very slow. > > Partly this is due to overloaded links, but I also notice that your > ftp server at ftp.io.org seems to be configured to send Ethernet sized > (ie 1536 byte) packets, instead of the normal Internet 576 byte packets. > This means that every IP packet you send has to be fragmented into three > IP fragments as it travels over the Internet, and if any single one of > those fragments is lost, then the other two are useless, even if they do > arrive. In other words, if your link is congested and is losing 20% of > the packets, then those losses make the other two fragments useless too, > giving you an 'effective' loss rate of 60%. > > Of course, I may be wrong. It's just a guess, based on what I noticed from > this end, that the ftp data seemed to be arriving in 1536 byte chunks. > > Stuart Cheshire > * World Wide Web Page > * Stanford Operating Systems and Networking Group Research Assistant > * Stanford Residential Computing Associate > * Macintosh Programmer > > > ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ > Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (204.216.27.4) by DATAPLEX.NET > with SMTP (MailShare 1.0fc5); Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:47:23 -0600 > Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA22923 > Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:35:25 -0800 (PST) > Received: (from root@localhost) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA22321 > for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:29:35 -0800 (PST) > Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22307 > for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:29:16 -0800 (PST) > Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id WAA12295; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:27:38 -0500 (EST) > Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:27:38 -0500 (EST) > From: Brian Tao > To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L > Subject: Changing Ethernet frame size to 576 bytes? > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org > X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Precedence: bulk > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 21:12:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA29442 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from wa3ymh.transsys.com (#6@wa3ymh.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.42]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29437 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from wa3ymh.transsys.com (#6@localhost.TransSys.COM [127.0.0.1]) by wa3ymh.transsys.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA20790; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:11:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603240511.AAA20790@wa3ymh.transsys.com> To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: Changing Ethernet frame size to 576 bytes? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:27:38 EST." Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:11:46 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There is much confusion evident in the email message. First, the 576 byte packet size mentioned is the *minimum* MTU which is "required" to be supported. Or something like that. In practice, most every link level encapsulation in use supports a 1500 byte MTU. The big exception to this these days is SLIP/PPP where a much smaller MTU is used to prevent interactive traffic from being "stuck" behind really large packets and screwing the echo response. Second, any fragmentation which would occur would happen in a IP router, which has an IP datagram it needs to transmit. If the interface which the packet needs to be forwarded over has an MTU smaller than the packet, then the fragmentation function occurs at that point. That is, unless the "don't fragment" bit is set. It's somewhat likely that it may be set, as the TCP in FreeBSD does MTU path discovery to "feel" the MTU along the path from the sender to the recpient's TCP. This is done by setting "Don't Fragment", and looking for ICMP messages coming back. When the path's MTU is discovered, the TCP can arrange to not send TCP segments larger than the MTU. Third, most long-haul links on the Internet today likely have 4K MTUs, which is usually used on FDDI and HSSI (to connect to DS3 links) interfaces. So, it's pretty unlikely that ethernet MTU sizes packets would be a problem. Fourth, you can verify that there's actually dropped fragments happening by looking on the receiving machine and doing a 'netstat -s' to look for the number of fragments received, as well as the number dropped due to reassembly timeouts. I suspect that the number will be 0. I don't think that you actually have a problem, or anything that you need to change.. louie > Anyone know what this guy is saying? I figured fragmentation and > reassembly would happen between the FTP server's Ethernet interface > and that of the router to the Internet. Is there any validity to this > guy's suggestion? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 21:50:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA02977 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02898 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id AAA12423; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:45:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:45:48 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Richard Wackerbarth cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Re: Changing Ethernet frame size to 576 bytes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 23 Mar 1996, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: > > His suggestion is valid. If the MTU is larger than the minimum MTU > along the path, each packet that you send out will be broken into > sub-packets and reassembled on the far end. If any subpacket gets > lost, the whole packet is lost and must be retransmitted. Then why doesn't everyone on the Internet use 576-byte packets? I assume on a fast link, the larger the packet size, the less overhead there is in sending each one? I've never heard of an FTP server (or Web server or news server, since they could all apparently benefit from this) use anything other than the default 1500 MTU. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) System and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 22:15:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA04266 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA04261 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA02784; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:14:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199603240614.WAA02784@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Brian Tao cc: Richard Wackerbarth , FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Re: Changing Ethernet frame size to 576 bytes? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:45:48 EST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:14:43 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On 23 Mar 1996, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: >> >> His suggestion is valid. If the MTU is larger than the minimum MTU >> along the path, each packet that you send out will be broken into >> sub-packets and reassembled on the far end. If any subpacket gets >> lost, the whole packet is lost and must be retransmitted. > > Then why doesn't everyone on the Internet use 576-byte packets? I >assume on a fast link, the larger the packet size, the less overhead >there is in sending each one? I've never heard of an FTP server (or >Web server or news server, since they could all apparently benefit >from this) use anything other than the default 1500 MTU. Just because the ethernet interface has an MTU of 1500 doesn't mean that's what the size the packets are going to be. Traditionally, the MSS (maximum segment size) is 512 for all non-local connections (those hosts which are not directly connected to the ethernet). This was changed recently in FreeBSD when Path MTU Discovery was implemented. We now use a mechanism to "discover" what the largest MSS is without fragmenting the packet. This will be whatever the smallest MTU is of all of the interfaces throughout the route minus the TCP/IP header. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 22:40:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA05958 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA05951 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.6.12/BSD4.4) id RAA18197; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:39:36 +1100 From: michael butler Message-Id: <199603240639.RAA18197@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: Changing Ethernet frame size to 576 bytes? To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:39:36 +1100 (EST) Cc: taob@io.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Richard Wackerbarth" at Mar 23, 96 11:03:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard Wackerbarth writes: > His suggestion is valid. If the MTU is larger than the minimum MTU along > the path, each packet that you send out will be broken into sub-packets > and reassembled on the far end. AFAIK this can happen two ways .. MTU discovery or at some (arbitrary) router in the transit path. > If any subpacket gets lost, the whole packet is lost and must be > retransmitted. Yup .. similar to the NFS 8k datagram disease suffered by hosts with slow ethernet interfaces :-( > Since tcp knows how to recover lost packets, the file eventually gets > through. However, it is more efficient if your packets are not fragmented > in transit. Around here, anyone who has a BRI or better connection to the 'net runs with an MTU of 1500. There's no point in crippling every site on the net because some, hopefully few, transit paths can't cope, michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 23:23:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA08357 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA08346 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:22:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pst@localhost) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id XAA05734; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:22:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:22:55 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Traina Message-Id: <199603240722.XAA05734@precipice.shockwave.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org, bde@freebsd.org Subject: kgdb / remote gdb of the kernel? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce, What's the state of remote debugging of the kernel? Is this code so old and crufty that it's bitrotted beyond hope, or is anyone actually doing this today? Paul From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 23 23:33:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA08947 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:33:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA08923 Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA07511; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:33:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603240733.XAA07511@precipice.shockwave.com> To: petzi@zit.th-darmstadt.de (Michael Beckmann) cc: John Polstra , freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new sup server In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:13:29 +0100." Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:33:09 -0800 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: petzi@zit.th-darmstadt.de (Michael Beckmann) Subject: Re: new sup server I must agree with that. I tried to run a sup mirror in Germany, but have never been able to make world or build a kernel with the sources from that mirror. There has always been corruption of the source tree. I'm surprised. Are you talking -current, -stable, or -cvs? I build -current trees by suping off of sup2 (i.e. I'm my own customer) every few days and have never had a sup-related corruption. Due to the highly loaded intercontinental lines, the sup updates from Freefall can take several hours, and in rare cases, (in particular if freefall doesn't let me in due to its ten user limit) they aren't finished until next night. It appears that the situation has improved somewhat with the new Internet connection of Freefall, though, which doesn't route through MCI/BBNPlanet any more. I would really like to provide some service for up-to-date FreeBSD sources in Europe, but sup simply doesn't work right under these conditions. I wouldn't mind the updates taking several hours, but I do mind getting garbled sources. They cost me a lot of time already. Sounds like a big call to fix CTM.