From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 00:25:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA23920 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 00:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA23915 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 00:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Sun, 7 Apr 96 04:25:26 -0400 Received: from compound ([206.10.99.151]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Sun, 7 Apr 96 04:25:23 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound (8.6.12/8.6.112) id DAA25912; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 03:25:42 -0500 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 03:25:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199604070825.DAA25912@compound> From: Tony Kimball To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <8503.828836587@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: pgcc and kernels.. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 16:23:07 -0800 From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" You must have done more than that, since our stock libgcc doesn't support some of the inlines that pgcc generates. Ah, to mention it, I also added sys/libkern/muldi3.c to the sources. Thereafter, ; make kern_clock.o clock.o CC=kcc # use 2.6.3 ; make CC=gcc COPTFLAGS=-O2 # use pgcc and voila. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 01:35:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA00806 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from blah.a.isar.de (root@blah.a.isar.de [194.45.233.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA00784 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roell@localhost) by blah.a.isar.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA00219; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:18:32 +0200 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:18:32 +0200 From: Thomas Roell Message-Id: <199604070918.LAA00219@blah.a.isar.de> To: Terry Lambert Cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de (Thomas Roell), hackers@FreeBSD.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604070021.RAA28693@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199604060911.LAA00234@blah.a.isar.de> <199604070021.RAA28693@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In your message of 6 April 1996 you write: > > Ok, then I had 2 or 3 maybe very stupid sounding questions (and believe me, > > I tried to work around them for quite a while now): > > > > 1) How do I get my process to be the controlling pgrp of this tty ? I > > tried all things that worked under SVR4, but I'm lost on this one. > > Just a couple of sample code lines would help me here incredible. > > The question is wrong. > > The correct question is "how do I make this tty the controlling > tty for my process?". > > You are attempting to map in the wrong direction. I would say the basic question still is, how do I get a signal if there is new data on my serial port ? > The *ONLY* reliable way to get SIGHUP delivery on two or more ttys > is to use another process for each additional tty to act as the > controlling process and then use an IPC mechanism to send the signals > to the "master" process. This is what I kind of avoid. The whole idea with the SIGIO was process io asynchronously. If I have to spawn another process to handle this and use signals/ipc to deliver data to my real process the I have increased the responsiveness at the cost of another process hogging the scheduler. And since this sub-process would use select() to controll many tty lines it would not be as direct as with a signal. > Really, the entire idea of controlling ttys and signal delivery and > session and process and credential association is rather broken. > Unfortunately POSIX has cast it in stone and now we are all screwed > if we want to be standards compliant. 8-(. *sigh* SYSV (aehm really working since SVR4) allows my at least a ioctl(fd, I_SETSIG, S_INPUT) to register a SIGPOLL for each STREAMS device I want. This seems to be the solution that works best, and that does what I really want to have. - Thomas -- Denver Office THOMAS ROELL /\ Das Reh springt hoch, +1(303)298-7478 X INSIDE INC / \/\ das Reh springt weit, 1801 Broadway, Suite 1710 / \ \/\ was soll es tun, Denver, CO 80202 roell@xinside.com / Oelch! \ \ es hat ja Zeit. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 05:21:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA09342 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA09337 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA06437; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:17:19 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604071247.WAA06437@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:17:19 +0930 (CST) Cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604070021.RAA28693@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 6, 96 05:21:08 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > Ok, then I had 2 or 3 maybe very stupid sounding questions (and believe me, > > I tried to work around them for quite a while now): > > > > 1) How do I get my process to be the controlling pgrp of this tty ? I > > tried all things that worked under SVR4, but I'm lost on this one. > > Just a couple of sample code lines would help me here incredible. > > The question is wrong. > > The correct question is "how do I make this tty the controlling > tty for my process?". No, this is _not_ the correct question. The question is "how can I arrange to receive a signal (eg. SIGIO) when there is data to be read on a descriptor, without making it the controlling TTY." The answer is "you can't, without using a coprocess." This is a shame, however bde has provided some reasons as to why this currently isn't possible. Think about the problem at hand. > I assume you want this for SIGHUP processing? I used to work (for > more than 5 years) as THE software engineer (not including the > company president) for the #1 UNIX communications software (TERM). Er, almost certainly not. Try "low-cost asynchronous input". Remember what TR does? Think about how handy it would be to do your mouse data handling inside a signal handler; your main loop would be presented with events out of a FIFO as faits accompli, you could probably even stuff the location registers in the signal handler. >From my (naive) viewpoint, it would sure beat the hell out of using select(), which has alreaby been stated is the _current_ way of doing it. > Really, the entire idea of controlling ttys and signal delivery and > session and process and credential association is rather broken. Rant... 8) > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 05:56:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA10582 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blah.a.isar.de (root@blah.a.isar.de [194.45.233.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA10563 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roell@localhost) by blah.a.isar.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA00414; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:45:57 +0200 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:45:57 +0200 From: Thomas Roell Message-Id: <199604071245.OAA00414@blah.a.isar.de> To: Michael Smith Cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604071247.WAA06437@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199604070021.RAA28693@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199604071247.WAA06437@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In your message of 7 April 1996 you write: > > I assume you want this for SIGHUP processing? I used to work (for > > more than 5 years) as THE software engineer (not including the > > company president) for the #1 UNIX communications software (TERM). > > Er, almost certainly not. Try "low-cost asynchronous input". Remember > what TR does? Think about how handy it would be to do your mouse data > handling inside a signal handler; your main loop would be presented > with events out of a FIFO as faits accompli, you could probably even > stuff the location registers in the signal handler. Was it that obvious ;-) Actually two reasons why I need it. One is obviously that the mouse responds more rapidly to movements. And this gets critical if the machine is under heavly load (both from the number of processes and from the number of X-Requests hogging the X-Server). Of course you can move the mouse pointer directly in the signal handler (although this is EXTREMELY tricky). The other reasons is more tricky. We do have reports from people that under heavy load they loose sync of the PS/2 mouse. The PS/2 mouse is different from all other mice, as there is now way to figure out from the byte-stream when a 3 byte packet starts. There is supposed to be a sync-bit, but half of the PS/2 mice do not set it. The PS/2 kernel driver in FreeBSD (and much worse in Interactive UNIX) has only a limited buffer. Assume you have 1024 bytes, then you can buffer only 341 packets (and one additional byte). If the mouse reports 50 times per second the position, then after roughly 7 seconds you loose sync if you are unable to read the input (3 seconds with ISC). If you run now X-clients which are hogging the X-server with requests that are longrunning (like mpeg_play) and you move the mouse for a while you might want to restart the X-server to get the mouse into sync again. >From the discussion here (and the fact that only LINUX and SVR4 seem to be able to do SIGIO/SIGPOLL correctly) such an io-daemon seems to be a reasonable, but less desirable solution. Or, of course a seperate pthread. - Thomas -- Denver Office THOMAS ROELL /\ Das Reh springt hoch, +1(303)298-7478 X INSIDE INC / \/\ das Reh springt weit, 1801 Broadway, Suite 1710 / \ \/\ was soll es tun, Denver, CO 80202 roell@xinside.com / Oelch! \ \ es hat ja Zeit. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 06:27:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA12049 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 06:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA12044 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 06:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA06599; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:23:08 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604071353.XAA06599@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: roell@blah.a.isar.de (Thomas Roell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:23:08 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604071245.OAA00414@blah.a.isar.de> from "Thomas Roell" at Apr 7, 96 02:45:57 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thomas Roell stands accused of saying: > > Er, almost certainly not. Try "low-cost asynchronous input". Remember > > what TR does? Think about how handy it would be to do your mouse data > > handling inside a signal handler; your main loop would be presented > > with events out of a FIFO as faits accompli, you could probably even > > stuff the location registers in the signal handler. > > Was it that obvious ;-) Actually two reasons why I need it. One is In context, there really weren't too many other things you could want it for, unless perhaps you wanted to put dongle support in AccelX 8) > X-Server). Of course you can move the mouse pointer directly in the > signal handler (although this is EXTREMELY tricky). I can imagine 8) > The other reasons is more tricky. We do have reports from people that > under heavy load they loose sync of the PS/2 mouse. The PS/2 mouse is I must say I'm not entirely sure that signal delivery will help lots here; certainly it would get your reads happening as soon as the server ran again. > different from all other mice, as there is now way to figure out from > the byte-stream when a 3 byte packet starts. There is supposed to be a > sync-bit, but half of the PS/2 mice do not set it. The PS/2 kernel Ah, I've been here before 8) If you can at all, use an idle timeout. If you have no mouse traffic for a second (or two or three), reset your state machine. I'm aware that this won't help the heavy traffic sync loss that you'll get if the buffer's overrun, but it will get you back in sync if you leave the mouse alone. (apologies if I'm trying to teach you to suck eggs 8) > - Thomas -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 06:54:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA12806 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 06:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA12801 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 06:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01058; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604071353.JAA01058@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whizzo.transsys.com: Host localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jim Fleming cc: "'Jordan K. Hubbard'" , hackers@freebsd.org From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: Check IP Version In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 00:28:56 CST." <01BB2419.36344C40@webster.unety.net> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 09:53:49 -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Jordan, > > I am starting to develop a substantialliy modified version of the IP protocol. > As specified in the IP protocol the ip_v (IP Version) field of the IP header > should be set to 4. (see /usr/src/sys/netinet/ip.h) IPv6 work, perhaps? > It is not desirable for new versions of IP to "break" existing code. I have not > provide this but in studying the SLIP code I see that there is never really > a check done to see of the IP header is of version 4. Just as a point of reference, the IPv6 implementation approach is to use a different link-level discriminator to distinguish between existing IPv4 traffic and IPv6 traffic. It was thought that this would allow existing protocol stacks to be more easily upgraded to accomodate IPv6, even though it may not be strictly necessary. That aside, you should realize that SLIP is not really suited as a multi-protocol encapsulation, and you'll not completely solve the problem with the fix below: > The TCP header is checked as follows... > > Line 557 of /usr/src/sys/net/if_sl.c > > if ((ip = mtod(m, struct ip *))->ip_p == IPPROTO_TCP) { > > I suggest that you might want to change this to... > > if ((ip = mtod(m, struct ip *))->ip_v == IPVERSION) && (ip->ip_p == IPPROTO_TCP)) { > Consider that many folks will run CSLIP, which has very intimate knowledge of the IP header, etc. If you're in that boat, you've lost whatever hope of a version number or other identifing marks. louie From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 07:00:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA13033 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA13028 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01073; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604071359.JAA01073@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whizzo.transsys.com: Host localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de (Thomas Roell), terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 23:23:08 +0930." <199604071353.XAA06599@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 09:59:54 -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Thomas Roell stands accused of saying: > > > Er, almost certainly not. Try "low-cost asynchronous input". Remember > > > what TR does? Think about how handy it would be to do your mouse data > > > handling inside a signal handler; your main loop would be presented > > > with events out of a FIFO as faits accompli, you could probably even > > > stuff the location registers in the signal handler. > > > > Was it that obvious ;-) Actually two reasons why I need it. One is > > In context, there really weren't too many other things you could want > it for, unless perhaps you wanted to put dongle support in AccelX 8) While not an X server application, you'll note that xntpd uses SIGIO so that it might read and, most importanty, timestamp traffic arriving on the network. This is critical to making NTP accurately synchronize the clock. By using SIGIO, you can not have to worry nearly so much about long-running sections of code and not being able to check for pending input for a "long" time. The model of signal as 'interrupt' works extremely well for this sort of appliation. Of course, this all works Just Fine with sockets.. What has this to do with ttys? It's conceivable that you might have an external reference clock (GPS, WWVB, etc) which is sending you timestamps periodically. It would be nice to be able to handle these in the same sort of way. louie From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 07:52:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA15200 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA15194 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id AAA05233 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:51:20 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199604071451.AAA05233@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: xntpd .. which addresses to listen on To: louie@TransSys.COM (Louis A. Mamakos) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:51:19 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604071359.JAA01073@whizzo.transsys.com> from "Louis A. Mamakos" at Apr 7, 96 09:59:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Louis A. Mamakos writes: > What has this to do with ttys? It's conceivable that you might have an > external reference clock (GPS, WWVB, etc) which is sending you timestamps > periodically. It would be nice to be able to handle these in the same > sort of way. Speaking of xntpd, it would be nice if this adopted a similar mechanism as named to determine the addresses of all the interfaces in a machine. Specifically, to include alias addresses. At the moment, you may have an alias IP number under the same domain name but in another subnet from the primary. ntp clients will fail (approx) half the time depending entirely on how quickly the DNS rotates between 'A' records. This is not useful for an intended accurate time reference, michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 08:35:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA16563 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 08:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA16557 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 08:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA18884; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 01:26:43 +1000 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 01:26:43 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199604071526.BAA18884@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: louie@TransSys.COM, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@blah.a.isar.de, roell@xinside.com, terry@lambert.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >While not an X server application, you'll note that xntpd uses SIGIO >so that it might read and, most importanty, timestamp traffic arriving >on the network. This is critical to making NTP accurately synchronize >the clock. ... >What has this to do with ttys? It's conceivable that you might have >an external reference clock (GPS, WWVB, etc) which is sending you >timestamps periodically. It would be nice to be able to handle these >in the same sort of way. xntpd is the only other case where the FSETOWN behaviour has been reported to cause problems under FreeBSD. xntpd seems to be still broken - I can't see any TIOCSCTTY ioctls or login_tty() calls in it. Buffering in some (low level) tty device drivers also gets in the way of periodic timestamps. There's an average delay of 10ms. The TIOCTIMESTAMP ioctl can be used (for some tty device drivers) to get an accurate timestamp for the last character that arrived. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 09:23:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA18566 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibp.ibp.fr (ibp.ibp.fr [132.227.60.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA18561 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blaise.ibp.fr (blaise.ibp.fr [132.227.60.1]) by ibp.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with ESMTP id SAA07684 ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:23:26 +0200 Received: from (uucp@localhost) by blaise.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with UUCP id SAA21813 ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:23:42 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.7.5/keltia-uucp-2.7) id OAA04995; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:16:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199604071216.OAA04995@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: Netscape install of FreeBSD To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:16:30 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Hackers' list) In-Reply-To: <199604070154.SAA26621@rover.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Apr 6, 96 06:54:42 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#1839 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Warner Losh said: > P.S. I notice that the Caldera stuff I got recently had two boot > disks that seemed to be needed to boot linux. I was very happy to see > we just need one now. :-) And you have to choose the boot floppies out from a poll of *80* floppies depending on your actual devices (IDE+3C509+Buslogic SCSI or ...). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #9: Mon Apr 1 03:18:13 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 09:51:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA19430 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19424 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.etinc.com ([204.141.95.148]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA01695; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:53:30 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:53:30 -0400 Message-Id: <199604071653.MAA01695@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: BROKEN_KBD still doesnt work Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >As dennis wrote: >> >> Running 2.1R, I have a MB that give me a "keyboard reset fails" message >> when I attempt to reboot. Configuring BROKEN_KEYBOARD_RESET >> gets rid of the message, but the machine still doesn't reboot. >> >> What else can I try? > >Get another mainboard? I've seen some mainboards that need Plague& >Pray disabled in order to reboot. > I booted DOS and tried the old out(0x64,0xFE) and poof, reboot. I then built another kernel and now the reboot works. Something's amiss...... Is there any way to control (or find out) what address a PCI shared mem board is mapped to? dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 11:20:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA24080 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zot.io.org (root@zot.io.org [198.133.36.82]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24072 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by zot.io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA24611 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:19:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: zot.io.org: taob owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:19:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: 'ps' or procfs stuck in disk wait??? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I came across a weird one today. I noticed the load on one of our shell servers was consistently above 1.0 (rare for this machine with only 50 users on it). I tried 'ps aux | head' to get a quick listing of the process chewing up the CPU. No response, can't ^C or ^Z, can't kill -9 it from another tty. 'ps x' and 'ps u' worked fine for listing my own processes, but I couldn't get a full list with 'ps a'. I resorted to "top -nu 9999" to see what was going on. There was a runaway vi which I killed, but the problem persisted. I noticed about three dozen instances of cron, sh, ps and egrep, all paged out. They were spawned from a cron job I have running every five minutes to check on zombie and detached processes. I was able to kill off everything except the ps's. Doing a "ps auxp" on one of the pid's revealed it was sittin in disk wait. I then called "ps auxp" on each of the pid's from the output of 'top'. It hung on a pwd_mkdb process (password files here are regenerated from a master copy every 30 minutes on the shell servers). According to 'top', the process wasn't using any CPU and it was sleeping. 'ps would hang whenever I pointed it at that pid. I looked inside /proc/1522 (the procfs directory associated with the pwd_mkdb process) and I was able to cat the status file. Unfortunately, I didn't save it before it was wiped off my xterm by a screen clear. :( The curious thing is that any read operation on the "mem" file would hang. I think this is why 'ps' hangs when trying to retrieve process information. Any ideas why this would happen? A bug in procfs or the VM system? I've never seen anything like this before. The system will be rebooting itself in about ten minutes, and I doubt I will be able to recreate this problem. Stock 2.1.0R, 128MB physical, 384MB swap, about 8% allocated when I discovered this condition... I'm stumped on this one. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) System and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 11:51:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA25478 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blah.a.isar.de (root@blah.a.isar.de [194.45.233.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25471 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roell@localhost) by blah.a.isar.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA00701; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:39:34 +0200 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:39:34 +0200 From: Thomas Roell Message-Id: <199604071839.UAA00701@blah.a.isar.de> To: Michael Smith Cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de (Thomas Roell), terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604071353.XAA06599@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199604071245.OAA00414@blah.a.isar.de> <199604071353.XAA06599@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In your message of 7 April 1996 you write: > > Was it that obvious ;-) Actually two reasons why I need it. One is > > In context, there really weren't too many other things you could want > it for, unless perhaps you wanted to put dongle support in AccelX 8) Dongle ... good idea. I have to ask our marketing about that ! > > The other reasons is more tricky. We do have reports from people that > > under heavy load they loose sync of the PS/2 mouse. The PS/2 mouse is > > I must say I'm not entirely sure that signal delivery will help lots > here; certainly it would get your reads happening as soon as the > server ran again. Well I guess there is a long explanation necessary. First off it should be obvious why SIGIO solves any possible problem, since the signal-handler can process the input directly, and even if it just means to buffer it in a larger buffer. Now a X-Server does some really tricky things to lower the cost of a dispatch cycle. Basically input-devices are ONLY polled after a select() system call. However one gets only back to the select system call if there is no more data left from the previous select() call, which means a client that overruns the X-Server with data can basically lock out any io. And if this happens long enough, the kernel-device buffer will overflow. > > different from all other mice, as there is now way to figure out from > > the byte-stream when a 3 byte packet starts. There is supposed to be a > > sync-bit, but half of the PS/2 mice do not set it. The PS/2 kernel > > Ah, I've been here before 8) If you can at all, use an idle timeout. > If you have no mouse traffic for a second (or two or three), reset > your state machine. I'm aware that this won't help the heavy traffic > sync loss that you'll get if the buffer's overrun, but it will get > you back in sync if you leave the mouse alone. > (apologies if I'm trying to teach you to suck eggs 8) We are doing exactly this already. But still the effect is quite noticable for certain applications. The customer really didn't like my comment about his broken hardware ;-) - Thomas -- Denver Office THOMAS ROELL /\ Das Reh springt hoch, +1(303)298-7478 X INSIDE INC / \/\ das Reh springt weit, 1801 Broadway, Suite 1710 / \ \/\ was soll es tun, Denver, CO 80202 roell@xinside.com / Oelch! \ \ es hat ja Zeit. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 11:56:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA25687 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw2.att.com (gw2.att.com [192.20.239.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25682 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:56:45 -0700 (PDT) From: dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com Received: from nasvr1.cb.att.com (naserver1.cb.att.com) by ig1.att.att.com id AA17664; Sun, 7 Apr 96 14:54:10 EDT Received: by nasvr1.cb.att.com (5.x/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA29112; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:57:08 -0400 Received: from cbsky.cb.att.com by nasvr1.cb.att.com (5.x/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA29108; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:57:05 -0400 Received: by cbsky.cb.att.com (5.x/EMS-1.1 client.cf 1/8/94 (SMI-4.1/SVR4)) id AA11581; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:56:36 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:56:36 -0400 Message-Id: <9604071856.AA11581@cbsky.cb.att.com> To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: pgcc and kernels.. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: Tony Kimball > Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 03:25:42 -0500 > Subject: Re: pgcc and kernels.. > > Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 16:23:07 -0800 > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > > You must have done more than that, since our stock libgcc doesn't > support some of the inlines that pgcc generates. > > Ah, to mention it, I also added sys/libkern/muldi3.c to the sources. Thereafter, Didn't readily find the source for muldi3.c so I just grabbed a copy of the _muldi3.o file from the pgcc libgcc library, stuffed it into the kernel compile directory, and hacked the Makefile to link in _muldi3.o > ; make kern_clock.o clock.o CC=kcc # use 2.6.3 This didn't work for me. Couldn't find kcc, so I just gave it CC=cc. > ; make CC=gcc COPTFLAGS=-O2 # use pgcc pgcc was installed from ports as /usr/local/bin/gcc, so I used CC=/usr/local/bin/gcc, instead. Kernel compiles and links ok but the resulting kernel panics out of _scsi_attach during probe phase. What other voodoo do I need to chant? Or was my variation of this voodoo chanted incorrectly? Thanks, Dan O'Brien Lucent Technologies (Bell Labs) Columbus, Ohio, USA From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 12:43:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA27270 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27263 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA00369; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:35:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604071935.MAA00369@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:35:25 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604071247.WAA06437@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 7, 96 10:17:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > No, this is _not_ the correct question. The question is "how can I arrange > to receive a signal (eg. SIGIO) when there is data to be read on a > descriptor, without making it the controlling TTY." > > The answer is "you can't, without using a coprocess." This is a shame, > however bde has provided some reasons as to why this currently isn't > possible. Actually, this is quite possible; the process which does the open in this case is the sole openenr and never changes. There really no reason that the PID shouldn't be pulled from the tty struct for the gsignal. Of course, since signals are persistent conditions, not events, it is pretty useless to try to use signals for anything, and it is only tolerated for SIGCLD because you can poll for child exit status with a rich enough wait*() abstraction. > Er, almost certainly not. Try "low-cost asynchronous input". Remember > what TR does? Think about how handy it would be to do your mouse data > handling inside a signal handler; your main loop would be presented > with events out of a FIFO as faits accompli, you could probably even > stuff the location registers in the signal handler. > > From my (naive) viewpoint, it would sure beat the hell out of using select(), > which has alreaby been stated is the _current_ way of doing it. I give up. Why is this the case? What is wrong with select()? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 12:47:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA27466 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27461 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA00383; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:39:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604071939.MAA00383@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: louie@TransSys.COM (Louis A. Mamakos) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:39:52 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, roell@blah.a.isar.de, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604071359.JAA01073@whizzo.transsys.com> from "Louis A. Mamakos" at Apr 7, 96 09:59:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > While not an X server application, you'll note that xntpd uses SIGIO > so that it might read and, most importanty, timestamp traffic arriving > on the network. This is critical to making NTP accurately synchronize > the clock. By using SIGIO, you can not have to worry nearly so much > about long-running sections of code and not being able to check for > pending input for a "long" time. The model of signal as 'interrupt' > works extremely well for this sort of appliation. Of course, this all > works Just Fine with sockets.. Signals are not events. What is wrong with select() that makes it unsuitable for your use? It's not like when the vent occurs you will interrupt or setal process quantum if you are not the running process. You will only set the flag saying you are ready to run as a result of a wakeup on the process sleep address, and *still* wait for then quantum on the currently running process to expire. Then you have to compete with all other processes on the system which *also* has their resources come free. So it's not like you get increased response time or anything. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 13:08:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA28327 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA28322 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA00425; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:00:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604072000.NAA00425@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: roell@blah.a.isar.de (Thomas Roell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:00:57 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, roell@blah.a.isar.de, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604071839.UAA00701@blah.a.isar.de> from "Thomas Roell" at Apr 7, 96 08:39:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Dongle ... good idea. I have to ask our marketing about that ! Oh yes, the only thing preventing me from buying it now is an attractive dongle (note: if you are marketing geek, you may not have recognized this as sarcasm. It is sarcasm.). > > > The other reasons is more tricky. We do have reports from people that > > > under heavy load they loose sync of the PS/2 mouse. The PS/2 mouse is > > > > I must say I'm not entirely sure that signal delivery will help lots > > here; certainly it would get your reads happening as soon as the > > server ran again. > > Well I guess there is a long explanation necessary. First off it > should be obvious why SIGIO solves any possible problem, since the > signal-handler can process the input directly, and even if it just > means to buffer it in a larger buffer. Now a X-Server does some really > tricky things to lower the cost of a dispatch cycle. Basically > input-devices are ONLY polled after a select() system call. However > one gets only back to the select system call if there is no more data > left from the previous select() call, which means a client that > overruns the X-Server with data can basically lock out any io. And if > this happens long enough, the kernel-device buffer will overflow. Ah. It seems you are doing your I/O processing by doing a read for some huge amount with the possibility of returning less than the requested amount. Then processing multiple runs of data in a loop instead of going back up to the top of the loop. Programatically, this is bad... it's like expecting XNextEvent() to not buffer multiple inputs for a single select true, and using a select in the main loop instead of checking XPending(). The fix for this is to virtualize the "data available" state bits for each fd, and for buffered data, not set the bit on the select if there is more data pending. Then when the select comes true, you OR in the select return bits to the current virtual bits to get the new virtual bits. That way, you still go through the motions of going to the select each time through the loop in your finite state automaton, and you can put examination of the mouse fd virtual bit at the front of the loop. The remaining problem is to set a null-valued timeval struct if any virtual bits are set at the time of entry so the select will not block if no data is available on the virtualized fd's that are currently not set (ie: virtual data available is true but real data avilable is false). I could understand wanting to use a signal handler if your problem was it taking long enough to overflow the buffer to complete a single state transition in the automaton; after all, signals get processed on any system call exit from the kernel, not just select(). But your problem is that the automaton is not running at sufficient granularity to generate a real-time response (which is why using the pipe() call and selecting on the slave end and writing messages to yourself that way won't cut it as a fix). Is there some reason you can't just increase the buffer in the kernel to prevent an overflow, if you insist on long delay state processing of many events without going back out to the top level of the I/O automaton? > > > different from all other mice, as there is now way to figure out from > > > the byte-stream when a 3 byte packet starts. There is supposed to be a > > > sync-bit, but half of the PS/2 mice do not set it. The PS/2 kernel > > > > Ah, I've been here before 8) If you can at all, use an idle timeout. > > If you have no mouse traffic for a second (or two or three), reset > > your state machine. I'm aware that this won't help the heavy traffic > > sync loss that you'll get if the buffer's overrun, but it will get > > you back in sync if you leave the mouse alone. > > (apologies if I'm trying to teach you to suck eggs 8) > > We are doing exactly this already. But still the effect is quite > noticable for certain applications. The customer really didn't like my > comment about his broken hardware ;-) The fix here is to virtualize all mouse I/O in the kernel instead of presenting seperate abstractions that the X server has to deal with. That way, even if you are dumping data on an overflow, you can do so only on boundries (or you can dynamically start suckung up buffer space to not lose data at all). One problem (from a casual glance at the driver) seems to be that you would want to prioritize button events ahead of motion events -- use a split LRU queue and throw away old consecutive motion events without an intervening button event to favor button events. Really, a buffer overflow is telling you one of two things: a) Your event buffer is too small b) You are taking too long in your atomaton before getting back to the state where the buffered events can be processed, and you need to fix the automaton. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 13:13:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA28655 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA28649 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA00439; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:04:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604072004.NAA00439@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: terry@safetynet.net (Terry Lambert) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:04:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: louie@TransSys.COM, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, roell@blah.a.isar.de, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604071939.MAA00383@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 7, 96 12:39:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am Dyslexia Man this weekend (able to stop a speeding bullet before it leaves the criminals nug. 8-)). > Signals are not events. What is wrong with select() that makes it > unsuitable for your use? > > It's not like when the vent occurs you will interrupt or setal process event steal > quantum if you are not the running process. You will only set the > flag saying you are ready to run as a result of a wakeup on the > process sleep address, and *still* wait for then quantum on the > currently running process to expire. Then you have to compete with > all other processes on the system which *also* has their resources come d > free. > > So it's not like you get increased response time or anything. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 13:20:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA28927 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA28918 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA00478; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:14:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604072014.NAA00478@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Netscape install of FreeBSD To: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org (Jeffrey Hsu) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:14:15 -0700 (MST) Cc: gpalmer@freefall.freebsd.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604070158.RAA01135@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jeffrey Hsu" at Apr 6, 96 05:58:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > specifically, Jordan and I talked a bit about using a WWW browser and > > CGI scripts to create the configuration manager for post-install stuff > > like adding/deleting users, changing /etc/sysconfig, etc. > > I meant the install install, that is, click a button from Netscape > running in Windows or Linux and it goes off and partitions your drive, > downloads FreeBSD, installs it, sets up the boot manager, asks you some > questions and writes the appropriate files onto the newly created BSD ufs, > then reboots. > > This is an example of network software distribution which everyone seems > to want to do with the web. This is hard. It's hard because thee is no standard extension for UNIX executables, like there is for DOS, and it's hard because the default "mailcap" or other mapping for running executables from a download is only there for the Microsoft Internet Explorer browser, from what I can tell. On the whole, if you had a netboot.exe that could work with all the cards, and the ability to boot as an anonymous client of a boothost that is well known and well connected, across a router, then it's barely possible to do with Microsoft's browser. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 13:47:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA00631 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blah.a.isar.de (root@blah.a.isar.de [194.45.233.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA00599 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roell@localhost) by blah.a.isar.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA00909; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:36:03 +0200 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:36:03 +0200 From: Thomas Roell Message-Id: <199604072036.WAA00909@blah.a.isar.de> To: Terry Lambert Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604072000.NAA00425@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199604071839.UAA00701@blah.a.isar.de> <199604072000.NAA00425@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In your message of 7 April 1996 you write: > > Dongle ... good idea. I have to ask our marketing about that ! > > Oh yes, the only thing preventing me from buying it now is an attractive > dongle (note: if you are marketing geek, you may not have recognized > this as sarcasm. It is sarcasm.). Hmmm, although being German I must admit I have a sence of humor, which is more sarcastic than usual. But your notion of an 'attractive Dongle' is really neat. A Dongle as a collectors item. Different colors. Different Designs. Just like the Swatch whatches. Kind of neat idea. Better than the extra vocal track on our next SW-CD, where you'll hear a couple of developers trying to sing ;-) (I shall forgive you this assult of taking me as a market droid) [arguments why select() is still the better way deleted] Just a simple counter example. You have OpenGL, build a cute display list, and kick off rendering with a single X-protocol request. This display list may no take 1 hour to render. Because in that scenario it is not going throu this automata at all you still have the problem with the lost sync of the PS/2 mouse. Granted, that this does make to much sence (who is moving the mosue at all or doing such huge display lists), but we do actually occasionally run into this class of problems. > But your problem is that the automaton is not running at sufficient > granularity to generate a real-time response (which is why using > the pipe() call and selecting on the slave end and writing messages > to yourself that way won't cut it as a fix). I was more thinking about a deamon that had a shared memory segment with the X-Server. This deamon would do the select() on all input devices and actually read data into a buffer. When there is new data read in after the select(), this deamon sends a signal to the X-Server so this buffer can be processed asyncrously. > Is there some reason you can't just increase the buffer in the kernel > to prevent an overflow, if you insist on long delay state processing > of many events without going back out to the top level of the I/O > automaton? Because by default, endusers are not capable of doing that by themselfs. And partly because on some OSes I cannot. The less painful for the end-user I can solve this problem the better it is. > The fix here is to virtualize all mouse I/O in the kernel instead of > presenting seperate abstractions that the X server has to deal with. > > That way, even if you are dumping data on an overflow, you can do so only > on boundries (or you can dynamically start suckung up buffer space to > not lose data at all). Right. This is what SVR4 (except Solaris), SCO and AIX are doing. > One problem (from a casual glance at the driver) seems to be that you > would want to prioritize button events ahead of motion events -- use > a split LRU queue and throw away old consecutive motion events without > an intervening button event to favor button events. This does really not matter. You just package them into neat packets, like SVR4: xq_time timestamp. xq_type XQ_BUTTON, XQ_MOTION, XQ_KEY xq_code button state or scancode xq_x, xq_y mouse position The disadvantage is that if you want to connect also a tablet to the system, you have the keyboard/pointer and the table using two different schemes. One is completely asynchron via a signal, while the other one is using select(). Then you had to resort the time-stamps (which might be invalid for the tablet, since you went throu the whole automata). Very tricky. > Really, a buffer overflow is telling you one of two things: > > a) Your event buffer is too small The problem is not that a couple of events are dropped. The problem really is that part of an event gets dropped, and you cannot resync to get any valid event after that. > b) You are taking too long in your atomaton before getting back > to the state where the buffered events can be processed, and > you need to fix the automaton. Not an option in the general case. There is no way of even predicting how long a single X-Request takes. - Thomas -- Denver Office THOMAS ROELL /\ Das Reh springt hoch, +1(303)298-7478 X INSIDE INC / \/\ das Reh springt weit, 1801 Broadway, Suite 1710 / \ \/\ was soll es tun, Denver, CO 80202 roell@xinside.com / Oelch! \ \ es hat ja Zeit. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 14:31:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA03376 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03368 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA05048; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:31:10 -0700 (PDT) To: dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: pgcc and kernels.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 14:56:36 EDT." <9604071856.AA11581@cbsky.cb.att.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 14:31:10 -0700 Message-ID: <5046.828912670@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Didn't readily find the source for muldi3.c so I just grabbed a copy of the It's in libkern - just add two lines to your /sys/compile/FOO/Makefile referencing the muldi3.c and muldi3.o files (it's trivial - look at some of the other libkern entries and clone appropriately). > > ; make kern_clock.o clock.o CC=kcc # use 2.6.3 > > This didn't work for me. Couldn't find kcc, so I just gave it CC=cc. Well, he's clearly got kcc aliased or set to cc. > > ; make CC=gcc COPTFLAGS=-O2 # use pgcc > > pgcc was installed from ports as /usr/local/bin/gcc, > so I used CC=/usr/local/bin/gcc, instead. Same here. I think he should have just called them "foocc" and "barcc" to more properly denote the fact that the names were arbitrary. :-) > Kernel compiles and links ok but the resulting kernel panics out of > _scsi_attach during probe phase. Strange. Works just fine for me (I have an AHC2940). The only side-effects I've noticed is messages on the console to the effect of: Apr 7 14:13:07 time /kernel: Connection attempt to TCP 127.0.0.1:113 from 127.0.0.1:1364 Apr 7 14:13:14 time /kernel: Connection attempt to TCP 204.216.27.226:113 from 204.216.27.226:2867 Which I've never seen before. Strange, but seemingly benign. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 14:40:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA04322 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04310 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA00676; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:32:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604072132.OAA00676@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: roell@blah.a.isar.de (Thomas Roell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:32:42 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604072036.WAA00909@blah.a.isar.de> from "Thomas Roell" at Apr 7, 96 10:36:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In your message of 7 April 1996 you write: > > > > Dongle ... good idea. I have to ask our marketing about that ! > > > > Oh yes, the only thing preventing me from buying it now is an > > attractive dongle (note: if you are marketing geek, you may not > > have recognized this as sarcasm. It is sarcasm.). > > Hmmm, although being German I must admit I have a sence of humor, > which is more sarcastic than usual. > > But your notion of an 'attractive Dongle' is really neat. A Dongle as > a collectors item. Different colors. Different Designs. Just like the > Swatch whatches. Kind of neat idea. Better than the extra vocal track > on our next SW-CD, where you'll hear a couple of developers trying to > sing ;-) I want royalties if you go all the way with this -- like Japanese collector "phone cards" with favorite Anime for the Otaku (fans) to buy. I'd probably buy a "Uresai Yatsura" (Those Obnoxious Aliens) dongle just to have one. 8-). > [arguments why select() is still the better way deleted] > > Just a simple counter example. You have OpenGL, build a cute display > list, and kick off rendering with a single X-protocol request. This > display list may no take 1 hour to render. Because in that scenario it > is not going throu this automata at all you still have the problem > with the lost sync of the PS/2 mouse. Granted, that this does make to > much sence (who is moving the mosue at all or doing such huge display > lists), but we do actually occasionally run into this class of problems. I'd probably argue that if it isn't going through the automata at all, then the implementation is probably broken in terms of allowable concurrency. Nevertheless, see my other resonse where I suggested pthreads. The problem is, of course, that you can't process things in zero time, and the question is whether to eat the meta-overhead of increasing the automaton's complexity. You'll do this with the suggestion I made previously about unwinding the main loop through the I/O processor, and you'll do the same thing with a threading environment. Which is better (if either is better) is a matter for you to decide based on relative amount of events in both device and client subautomatons. > > But your problem is that the automaton is not running at sufficient > > granularity to generate a real-time response (which is why using > > the pipe() call and selecting on the slave end and writing messages > > to yourself that way won't cut it as a fix). > > I was more thinking about a deamon that had a shared memory segment > with the X-Server. This deamon would do the select() on all input > devices and actually read data into a buffer. When there is new data > read in after the select(), this deamon sends a signal to the X-Server > so this buffer can be processed asyncrously. You can do the same thing without needing another process if you popen a fipe and write events to yourself that can then be selected upon. THis might very well fix your buffering id 1K vs. 6k (5k pipe + 1k kernel) is enough to fix the problem for you. > > Is there some reason you can't just increase the buffer in the kernel > > to prevent an overflow, if you insist on long delay state processing > > of many events without going back out to the top level of the I/O > > automaton? > > Because by default, endusers are not capable of doing that by > themselfs. And partly because on some OSes I cannot. The less painful > for the end-user I can solve this problem the better it is. > > > The fix here is to virtualize all mouse I/O in the kernel instead of > > presenting seperate abstractions that the X server has to deal with. > > > > That way, even if you are dumping data on an overflow, you can do so only > > on boundries (or you can dynamically start suckung up buffer space to > > not lose data at all). > > Right. This is what SVR4 (except Solaris), SCO and AIX are doing. Well. It seems that you really want a fix in another area of BSD, and that this fix is just a software fix to the fact that the other area is broken. 8-). > > One problem (from a casual glance at the driver) seems to be that you > > would want to prioritize button events ahead of motion events -- use > > a split LRU queue and throw away old consecutive motion events without > > an intervening button event to favor button events. > > This does really not matter. You just package them into neat packets, > like SVR4: > > xq_time timestamp. > xq_type XQ_BUTTON, XQ_MOTION, XQ_KEY > xq_code button state or scancode > xq_x, xq_y mouse position > > The disadvantage is that if you want to connect also a tablet to the > system, you have the keyboard/pointer and the table using two > different schemes. One is completely asynchron via a signal, while the > other one is using select(). Then you had to resort the time-stamps > (which might be invalid for the tablet, since you went throu the whole > automata). Very tricky. Not a problem, if you virtualize all pointing devices the same way, at the kernel->useer interface level. It should be done that way to avoid user-space polling for some hardware (busmouse) anyway. Again, a BSD fix is needed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 14:41:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA04413 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04400 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA00753; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604072140.RAA00753@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whizzo.transsys.com: Host localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 12:39:52 PDT." <199604071939.MAA00383@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 17:40:49 -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > While not an X server application, you'll note that xntpd uses SIGIO > > so that it might read and, most importanty, timestamp traffic arriving > > on the network. This is critical to making NTP accurately synchronize > > the clock. By using SIGIO, you can not have to worry nearly so much > > about long-running sections of code and not being able to check for > > pending input for a "long" time. The model of signal as 'interrupt' > > works extremely well for this sort of appliation. Of course, this all > > works Just Fine with sockets.. > > Signals are not events. What is wrong with select() that makes it > unsuitable for your use? Right, Berkeley/POSIX signals are more interrupts than actual events. It's an indication that "something" interesting has just happened, which fits some applications rather nicely. I'll describe the way that SIGIO is used inside the xntpd daemon process. If you're not familiar with the way that the protocol machinary in NTP works, it relies on periodically exchanging packets with peers on the network. The peers poll each other starting at every 64 seconds, which ramps up to as much as every 512 (or more) seconds if the path has a low dispersion. These packets contain, among other things, a set of 64 bit timestamps which are used in a computation to derive the relative clock offset and round-trip delay time to a peer. There is also quite a suite of sophisticated filtering and clock selection algorithms which are used to select or discard individual clock offset/delay samples. A critical part of all this which directly affects the overall precision and accuracy to which you can synchronize the frequency and phase of your clock is the ability to promptly timestamp the arrival time of an NTP packet as it arrives from a peer. This timestamp is used as part of the computation to determine an offset and delay sample. Packets being transmitted are rarely an issue, as they are timestamped and then pretty much synchronously sent on the wire as a result of the send() system call. Now, the xntpd daemon might be in the midst of performing some computationally expensive process, and may not be 'idle' for hunderds of microseconds or even a few milliseconds. It may be, for example, in the middle of performing a cryptographic algorithm to authenticate the source of the frame, which in NTP is either a DES based crypto digest or more recently, an MD5 based digest which I contributed some years ago. Or if you have a large number of peers, it may still be running the peer selection algorithm. Or a median filter algorithm to accept or ignore a received offset/delay sample. Or something so mundane as printf. What a SIGIO based scheme does is interrupt whatever computation is going on, read the packet from the socket, timestamp it, and put it into a queue to be processed at some later time. Once you've noted the arrive time, the time criticality is gone, and you can process it at your leisure. >From what I can see, there are four alternatives to the SIGIO scheme: - multiple priority threads within the process, with the network I/O thread having higher priority. We don't typically have real threads available on most BSD systems. It would be interesting to see how well this might work on more recent Sun operating systems. - OS support for timestamps. I prototyped this in the original ntp3.4 code that Mike Petry and myself worked on, with a modification to the socket code in a 4.3BSD-tahoe (I think?) kernel. This involved a socket option and using recvmsg() to read the data and associated 'control' information which included a timestamp. This worked pretty well. - A whole seperate process doing this synchronously, talking to a master xntpd process using pipes or some other horror. Ick. - Dropping a whole bunch of subroutine calls throughout the code to poll for input via a non-blocking select. Ick, again. Logically, an external, serially attached reference clock (like a Rhubidium clock, GPS-synced clock, WWVB-synced clock, or LORAN-synced clock) can be modeled pretty much exactly like a stratum-1 NTP peer in the code and are handled in much the same way. This is why you see mondo-bizzaro line disclipline code to support timestamping the arrival of characters or preferably, RS232 control signal state changes which are connected to a 1 pulse-per-second signal from the clock. > So it's not like you get increased response time or anything. Response time isn't really the problem so much as precision in marking an event, such as packet arrival. If you pay reasonable care to all this, you can get the phase (that is, offset) of the local clock to within single digits of milliseconds over a somewhat reasonable quality network path, like an local ethernet. Heck, you can even tell the temperature of the room your computer is in by calibrating the frequency offset of the computer's clock based on the effect the temperature has on the crystal oscillator. Of course, some of us are really weird this way. That how we end up with PLL models of the computer's clock in the kernel. louie From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 14:42:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA04485 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04473 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA05088; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:41:38 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org (Jeffrey Hsu), gpalmer@freefall.freebsd.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netscape install of FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 13:14:15 PDT." <199604072014.NAA00478@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 14:41:38 -0700 Message-ID: <5086.828913298@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > specifically, Jordan and I talked a bit about using a WWW browser and > > > CGI scripts to create the configuration manager for post-install stuff > > > like adding/deleting users, changing /etc/sysconfig, etc. > > > > I meant the install install, that is, click a button from Netscape > > running in Windows or Linux and it goes off and partitions your drive, > > downloads FreeBSD, installs it, sets up the boot manager, asks you some > > questions and writes the appropriate files onto the newly created BSD ufs, > > then reboots. > > > > This is an example of network software distribution which everyone seems > > to want to do with the web. > > This is hard. > > It's hard because thee is no standard extension for UNIX executables, I don't think this is so much an issue. You'll recall awhile back that I was calling for a general-purpose library that would provide an "embedable HTTP server" for an application, allowing you to specify your "HTML" in some higher-level syntax that provided for genuine callbacks and such without having to deal with any of the thoroughly disgusting form and entry field hacks. You'd just say which entities you wanted in each document or interaction screen and the library would interact with the HTTP port like any other server, processing incoming requests and turning them into standardised callbacks. The reason I stopped dreaming about this and decided to punt the whole idea was that I disliked the idea of using only the standard HTML objects (text, entry fields, buttons, and so on) for doing my interfaces. How would I display the current disk layout, for example? As rows of "X"'s or something? Bleah! ASCII art is your department, not mine.. :-) I would far prefer to generate gifs on the fly that represented pie charts, colored bar graphs (representing the sizes of your various partitions and free space) and such, but the idea of adding a generalized rendering API to this whole thing finally brought me up short with the realization that it was a whole 'nother engineering project unto itself and I should probably just make the existing tools work a little nicer before even contemplating such a massive project. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 14:46:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA05148 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05138 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.ki.net (root@freebsd.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by ki.net (8.7.4/8.7.4) with ESMTP id RAA10143; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by freebsd.ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id RAA12623; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:46:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:46:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-Reply-To: <5046.828912670@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Strange. Works just fine for me (I have an AHC2940). The only > side-effects I've noticed is messages on the console to the effect of: > > Apr 7 14:13:07 time /kernel: Connection attempt to TCP 127.0.0.1:113 from 127.0.0.1:1364 > Apr 7 14:13:14 time /kernel: Connection attempt to TCP 204.216.27.226:113 from 204.216.27.226:2867 > > Which I've never seen before. Strange, but seemingly benign. > Actually, I've just starting seeing these in the newest -current kernel, and can't track it down. 113 is auth (identd), but my identd seems to be running properly. Benign or not...my screen is full of them. Does anyone know what is causing them? And is it restricted to the -current kernel, or is this happening in -stable as well? Marc G. Fournier | POP Mail Telnet Acct DNS Hosting System | WWW Services Database Services | Knowledge, Administrator | | Information and scrappy@ki.net | WWW: http://www.ki.net | Communications, Inc From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 15:03:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA06967 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06953 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA01169; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604072203.PAA01169@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 17:46:42 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 15:03:03 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Strange. Works just fine for me (I have an AHC2940). The only >> side-effects I've noticed is messages on the console to the effect of: >> >> Apr 7 14:13:07 time /kernel: Connection attempt to TCP 127.0.0.1:113 from 127.0.0.1:1364 >> Apr 7 14:13:14 time /kernel: Connection attempt to TCP 204.216.27.226:113 from 204.216.27.226:2867 >> >> Which I've never seen before. Strange, but seemingly benign. >> > > Actually, I've just starting seeing these in the newest -current >kernel, and can't track it down. 113 is auth (identd), but my identd >seems to be running properly. > > Benign or not...my screen is full of them. Does anyone know what >is causing them? And is it restricted to the -current kernel, or is this >happening in -stable as well? The option to do non-existent port logging was recently added and defaults to on. I think it should default to off. In any case, it is controlled with a sysctl variable (I forget which one - do a sysctl -a). -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 15:15:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA07925 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr (root@athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.91.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07920 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Apr 96 00:16 EET DST From: nlan@athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr (Nikos Landrou) To: hackers@freebsd.org, info@freebsd.org Subject: Please help me with my problem.. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi.. before a few days, i finally got Freebsd 2.1 on cd from Walnut Creek. I have a problem with the S3 x-windows server... i have the Diamond Stealth S3 Trio64V+ DRAM Video 2001. Every time i start the S3 server the screen goes blank and my computer hangs.. i have run the xf86config utility and i'm sure there is nothing wrong with it... The VGA 16 Server runs properly, but i need greater resolutions and more colors.. Please try to answer my mail as soon as possible... Thanks.. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 15:39:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA09341 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sierra.zyzzyva.com (root@ppp0.zyzzyva.com [198.183.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09323 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zyzzyva.com (randy@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sierra.zyzzyva.com (8.7.4/8.6.11) with ESMTP id RAA22291; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:39:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604072239.RAA22291@sierra.zyzzyva.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Updating /stand X-uri: http://www.zyzzyva.com/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 17:39:02 -0500 From: Randy Terbush Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Can someone tell me how it is possible to update a 2.1-R /stand to -stable? I see in the archives that many have asked the same question, but have not seen the answer. Thanks From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 15:39:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA09368 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zot.io.org (root@zot.io.org [198.133.36.82]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09363 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by zot.io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01859 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:37:47 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: zot.io.org: taob owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:37:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Re: 'ps' or procfs stuck in disk wait??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Brian Tao wrote: > > The system will be rebooting itself in about ten minutes, and I doubt > I will be able to recreate this problem. As it turns out, the server did not reboot itself... after it tried to kill all running processes, it must have run into a problem with the pwd_mkdb and ps processes. When I arrived, it was sitting in single-user mode with init's "some processes would not die; ps axl advised" message. Is this error really necessary? The machine is about to be shutdown or rebooted anyway. It's a good thing I live fairly close to work so I can come in and hit the reset key without going too much out of my way. It could be disastrous if the machine was the only shell server at a remote POP... -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) System and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 15:44:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA09762 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09754 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0u63CI-0003vyC; Sun, 7 Apr 96 15:44 PDT Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA06552; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:44:49 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: davidg@Root.COM cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 15:03:03 MST." <199604072203.PAA01169@Root.COM> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 22:44:48 +0000 Message-ID: <6550.828917088@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > >> Strange. Works just fine for me (I have an AHC2940). The only > >> side-effects I've noticed is messages on the console to the effect of: > >> > >> Apr 7 14:13:07 time /kernel: Connection attempt to TCP 127.0.0.1:113 from 127.0.0.1:1364 > >> Apr 7 14:13:14 time /kernel: Connection attempt to TCP 204.216.27.226:113 from 204.216.27.226:2867 > >> > >> Which I've never seen before. Strange, but seemingly benign. 100%, merely information to you. > > Actually, I've just starting seeing these in the newest -current > >kernel, and can't track it down. 113 is auth (identd), but my identd > >seems to be running properly. > > > > Benign or not...my screen is full of them. Does anyone know what > >is causing them? And is it restricted to the -current kernel, or is this > >happening in -stable as well? > > The option to do non-existent port logging was recently added and defaults > to on. I think it should default to off. In any case, it is controlled with a > sysctl variable (I forget which one - do a sysctl -a). I'm open to input on this, I just left it on as default to make sure there would be a discussion :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 15:52:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA10127 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA10107 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0u63Jn-0003vyC; Sun, 7 Apr 96 15:52 PDT Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA06619; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:52:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: Randy Terbush cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Updating /stand In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 17:39:02 EST." <199604072239.RAA22291@sierra.zyzzyva.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 22:52:32 +0000 Message-ID: <6617.828917552@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Can someone tell me how it is possible to update a 2.1-R /stand > to -stable? I see in the archives that many have asked the same > question, but have not seen the answer. At this time /stand is a relic from the installation of marginal, but in some cases significant, usability as a recovery tool. There doesn't exist a way to make /stand at this time, short of installing. Maybe there will one day, it depends on may variables. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 17:17:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA13535 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA13530 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA01007; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:10:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604080010.RAA01007@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Netscape install of FreeBSD To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:10:18 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hsu@freefall.freebsd.org, gpalmer@freefall.freebsd.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <5086.828913298@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 7, 96 02:41:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I meant the install install, that is, click a button from Netscape > > > running in Windows or Linux and it goes off and partitions your drive, > > > downloads FreeBSD, installs it, sets up the boot manager, asks you some > > > questions and writes the appropriate files onto the newly created BSD ufs, > > > then reboots. > > > > > > This is an example of network software distribution which everyone seems > > > to want to do with the web. > > > > This is hard. > > > > It's hard because thee is no standard extension for UNIX executables, > > I don't think this is so much an issue. > > You'll recall awhile back that I was calling for a general-purpose > library that would provide an "embedable HTTP server" for an > application, allowing you to specify your "HTML" in some higher-level > syntax that provided for genuine callbacks and such without having to > deal with any of the thoroughly disgusting form and entry field hacks. > You'd just say which entities you wanted in each document or > interaction screen and the library would interact with the HTTP port > like any other server, processing incoming requests and turning them > into standardised callbacks. Uh... correct me if I'm wrong, but an install will have to use someone else's browser code because our isn't installed yet. 8-) 8-). > The reason I stopped dreaming about this and decided to punt the whole > idea was that I disliked the idea of using only the standard HTML > objects (text, entry fields, buttons, and so on) for doing my > interfaces. How would I display the current disk layout, for example? > As rows of "X"'s or something? Bleah! ASCII art is your department, > not mine.. :-) > > I would far prefer to generate gifs on the fly that represented pie > charts, colored bar graphs (representing the sizes of your various > partitions and free space) and such, but the idea of adding a > generalized rendering API to this whole thing finally brought me up > short with the realization that it was a whole 'nother engineering > project unto itself and I should probably just make the existing tools > work a little nicer before even contemplating such a massive project. CGI would let you do this to a locally connect "install server", but you'd still have to boot the local disk. It's all very annyoing. The Microsoft stuff has "click here to upgrade your browser" type capabilities, which is what you want. The problem is that for OS installs, it's not quire there enough to be able to use, and it's certianly not "cross-browser" enough to deal with it. Imagine Mr. Mac weenie trying to click the FreBSD "install now" button. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 17:20:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA13741 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13727 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA02363; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:17:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604080017.UAA02363@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whizzo.transsys.com: Host localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: davidg@Root.COM, "Marc G. Fournier" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 22:44:48 -0000." <6550.828917088@critter.tfs.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 20:17:59 -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'm open to input on this, I just left it on as default to make sure there > would be a discussion :-) I think it should be defaulted to 'off' in the kernel, and then optionally enabled AT THE END of /etc/rc* once all of the daemons have been started up. As it is now, much of the kernel message buffers are filled up with these messages before syslogd gets a chance to start up, and you loose a bunch of the autoconfig messages at boot time. It might also be interesting to have a few tunable options to enable the messages based on these other sysctl variable defined port ranges: net.inet.ip.portrange.first: 1024 net.inet.ip.portrange.last: 5000 net.inet.ip.portrange.hifirst: 40000 net.inet.ip.portrange.hilast: 44999 That is, only for ports below net.inet.ip.portrange.first for "well known" services. Or a bit mask.. Or maybe something like the routing protocol socket that gets sent messages, and an intelligent daemon which implements logging policy.. Just some other ideas. louie From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 17:41:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA14543 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA14538 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Sun, 7 Apr 96 20:40:56 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.158]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Sun, 7 Apr 96 20:40:52 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id TAA10220; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:41:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:41:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604080041.TAA10220@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: pgcc and kernels Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Didn't readily find the source for muldi3.c ... Kernel compiles and links ok but the resulting kernel panics out of _scsi_attach during probe phase. In your sys directory, unless I'm not uttering a tautology, there is a libkern/muldi3.c. I haven't checked for differences from the pgcc supplied run-time, so I suggest checking for differences. If it panics anywhere in vfs_bio.c, vfs_cluster.c, subr_prof.c, or kern_resource.c, I'd say it is dollars to donuts that your _muldi3.c from the pgcc distribution is NOT acceptable -- use the libkern one instead, for it works for me. This didn't work for me. Couldn't find kcc, so I just gave it CC=cc. Right, whatever, mutatis mutandis, check, okay, cool: Me, I replaced cc/gcc with pgcc, leaving only kcc as a fall-back. //alk From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 18:15:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA16061 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw3.att.com ([204.179.186.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA16055 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:15:07 -0700 (PDT) From: dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com Received: from nasvr1.cb.att.com (naserver1.cb.att.com) by ig4.att.att.com id AA15800; Sun, 7 Apr 96 21:07:02 EDT Received: by nasvr1.cb.att.com (5.x/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA08960; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:15:17 -0400 Received: from cbsky.cb.att.com by nasvr1.cb.att.com (5.x/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA08951; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:15:14 -0400 Received: by cbsky.cb.att.com (5.x/EMS-1.1 client.cf 1/8/94 (SMI-4.1/SVR4)) id AA12449; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:14:46 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:14:46 -0400 Message-Id: <9604080114.AA12449@cbsky.cb.att.com> To: alk@Think.COM Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: pgcc and kernels Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From Think.COM!alk@ig4.att.att.com Sun Apr 7 20:41 EDT 1996 > From: Tony Kimball > > Didn't readily find the source for muldi3.c > ... > Kernel compiles and links ok but the resulting kernel panics out of > _scsi_attach during probe phase. > > In your sys directory, unless I'm not uttering a tautology, there is a libkern/muldi3.c. > I haven't checked for differences from the pgcc supplied run-time, so > I suggest checking for differences. If it panics anywhere in > vfs_bio.c, vfs_cluster.c, subr_prof.c, or kern_resource.c, I'd say it > is dollars to donuts that your _muldi3.c from the pgcc distribution is > NOT acceptable -- use the libkern one instead, for it works for me. Thanks. Found it. Made it (per Jordan's suggestion ala Makefile). Didn't work. Panic'ed like before (trace): _scsi_attachdevs + x20 _ncr_attach + x199 _pci_bus_config + x4e8 _pci_configure + x4f _configure + x21 _main + xx87 begin + x59 Something else is non-copastetic. > This didn't work for me. Couldn't find kcc, so I just gave it CC=cc. > > Right, whatever, mutatis mutandis, check, okay, cool: > Me, I replaced cc/gcc with pgcc, leaving only kcc as a fall-back. Huh, I get it now... Pardon my naivete' :-) Peace, Dan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 18:28:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA17117 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17093 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id DAA12584; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:28:33 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id DAA10012; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:28:33 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA01620; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 02:48:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604080048.CAA01620@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Please help me with my problem.. To: nlan@athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr (Nikos Landrou) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 02:48:07 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, info@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Nikos Landrou" at Apr 8, 96 00:16:00 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Nikos Landrou wrote: > i have the Diamond Stealth S3 Trio64V+ DRAM Video 2001. > Every time i start the S3 server the screen goes blank and my > computer hangs.. > Please try to answer my mail as soon as possible... Lack of response is not ignorance, but often lack of sufficient knowledge. I'm afraid that nobody is able to reproduce your problem, and nobody knows offhand what it might be. :-( -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 18:30:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA17359 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17342 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id DAA12597; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:28:42 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id DAA10015; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:28:37 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA01911; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:23:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604080123.DAA01911@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 'ps' or procfs stuck in disk wait??? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:23:35 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: taob@io.org (Brian Tao) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Brian Tao" at Apr 7, 96 06:37:47 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Brian Tao wrote: > with the pwd_mkdb and ps processes. When I arrived, it was sitting in > single-user mode with init's "some processes would not die; ps axl > advised" message. > > Is this error really necessary? It normally goes back to single-user, or reboots cleanly, even despite of this message. Your hang must have been somewhere deeper. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 18:49:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA18194 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA18188 for freebsd-hackers; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:49:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Pritchard Message-Id: <199604080149.SAA18188@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: diskless(8) To: freebsd-hackers Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Can someone who does diskless booting under FreeBSD please review this diskless(8) man page obtained from NetBSD and see if it reflects reality, and possibly even add some FreeBSD specific info to the man page where appropriate? Thanks. -Mike .\" $NetBSD: diskless.8,v 1.7 1996/02/18 01:10:55 hpeyerl Exp $ .\" .\" .\" Copyright (c) 1994 Gordon W. Ross, Theo de Raadt .\" All rights reserved. .\" .\" Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without .\" modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions .\" are met: .\" 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright .\" notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. .\" 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright .\" notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the .\" documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. .\" 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote products .\" derived from this software without specific prior written permission. .\" .\" THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR .\" IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES .\" OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. .\" IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, .\" INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT .\" NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, .\" DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY .\" THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT .\" (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF .\" THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. .\" .Dd October 2, 1994 .Dt DISKLESS 8 .Os NetBSD .Sh NAME .Nm diskless .Nd booting a system over the network .Sh DESCRIPTION The ability to boot a machine over the network is useful for .Xr diskless or .Xr dataless machines, or as a temporary measure while repairing or re-installing filesystems on a local disk. This file provides a general description of the interactions between a client and its server when a client is booting over the network. The general description is followed by specific instructions for configuring a server for diskless Sun clients. .Pp .Sh OPERATION When booting a system over the network, there are three phases of interaction between client and server: .Pp .Bl -tag -width 1.2 -compact .It 1. The PROM (or stage-1 bootstrap) loads a boot program. .It 2. The boot program loads a kernel. .It 3. The kernel does NFS mounts for root and swap. .El .Pp Each of these phases are described in further detail below. .Pp In phase 1, the PROM loads a boot program. PROM designs vary widely, so this phase is inherently machine-specific. Sun machines use .Tn RARP to determine the client's .Tn IP address and then use .Tn TFTP to download a boot program from whoever sent the .Tn RARP reply. HP 300-series machines use the .Tn HP Remote Maintainance Protocol to download a boot program. Typical personal computers may load a network boot program either from diskette or using a special PROM on the network card. .Pp In phase 2, the boot program loads a kernel. Operation in this phase depends on the design of the boot program. (The design described here is the one used by Sun and NetBSD/hp300.) The boot program: .Pp .Bl -tag -width 2.2 -compact .It 2.1 gets the client IP address using .Tn RARP . .It 2.2 gets the client name and server .Tn IP address by broadcasting an .Tn RPC / BOOTPARAMS / WHOAMI request with the client IP address. .It 2.3 gets the server path for this client's root using an .Tn RPC / BOOTPARAMS / GETFILE request with the client name. .It 2.4 gets the root file handle by calling .Xr mountd 8 with the server path for the client root. .It 2.5 gets the kernel file handle by calling .Tn NFS lookup on the root file handle. .It 2.6 loads the kernel using .Tn NFS read calls on the kernel file handle. .It 2.7 transfers control to the kernel entry point. .El .Pp In phase 3, the kernel does NFS mounts for root and swap. The kernel repeats much of the work done by the boot program because there is no standard way for the boot program to pass the information it gathered on to the kernel. The procedure used by the kernel is as follows: .Pp .Bl -tag -width 2.2 -compact .It 3.1 The kernel finds a boot server using the same procedure as described in steps 2.1 and 2.2 above. .It 3.2 The kernel gets the .Tn NFS file handle for root using the same procedure as described in steps 2.3 through 2.5 above. .It 3.3 The kernel calls the .Tn NFS getattr function to get the last-modified time of the root directory, and uses it to check the system clock. .It 3.4 If the kernel is configured for swap on .Tn NFS , it uses the same mechanism as for root, but uses the .Tn NFS getattr funciton to determine the size of the swap area. .El .Sh CONFIGURATION Before a client can boot over the network, its server must be configured correctly. This example will demonstrate how a Sun client might be configured -- other clients should be similar. .Pp Assuming the client's hostname is to be "myclient", .Pp .Bl -tag -width 2.1 -compact .It 1. Add an entry to .Pa /etc/ethers corresponding to the client's ethernet address: .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact 8:0:20:7:c5:c7 myclient .Ed This will be used by .Xr rarpd 8 . .Pp .It 2. Assign an IP address for myclient in your .Pa /etc/hosts or DNS database: .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact 192.197.96.12 myclient .Ed .Pp .It 3. If booting a Sun machine, ensure that .Pa /etc/inetd.conf is configured to run .Xr tftpd 8 in the directory .Pa /tftpboot . .Pp If booting an HP 300-sseries machine, ensure that .Pa /etc/rbootd.conf is configured properly to transfer the boot program to the client. An entry might look like this: .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact 08:00:09:01:23:E6 SYS_NBOOT # myclient .Ed .Pp See the .Xr rbootd 8 manual page for more information. .Pp .It 4. If booting a Sun machine, install a copy of the appropriate diskless boot loader (such as .Pa boot.sun4.sunos.4.1.1 from the SunOS media) in the .Pa /tftpboot directory. Make a link such that the boot program is accessible by a file name composed of the client's IP adddress in HEX, a dot, and the architecture name (all upper case). For example: .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact # cd /tftpboot # ln -s boot.sun4.sunos.4.1.1 C0C5600C.SUN4 .Ed .Pp For a Sun3 machine, the name would be just C0C5600C (the sun3 PROM does not append the architecture name). The name used is architecture dependent, it simply has to match what the booting client's PROM wishes to it to be. If the client's PROM fails to fetch the expected file, .Xr tcpdump 8 can be used to discover which filename the client is trying to read. .Pp If booting an HP 300-series machine, ensure that the network boot program .Pa SYS_NBOOT (which may be called .Pa netboot.lif before installation) is installed in the directory .Pa /usr/mdec/rbootd . .It 5. Add myclient to the bootparams database .Pa /etc/bootparams : .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact myclient root=server:/export/myclient/root \\ swap=server:/export/myclient/swap .Ed .Pp .It 6. Build the swap file for myclient: .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact # mkdir /export/myclient # cd /export/myclient # dd if=/dev/zero of=swap bs=16k count=1024 .Ed This creates a 16 Megabyte swap file. .Pp .It 7. Populate myclient's .Pa / filesystem on the server. How this is done depends on the client architecture and the version of the NetBSD distribution. It can be as simple as copying and modifying the server's root filesystem, or perhaps you need to get those files out of the standard binary distribution. .Pp .It 8. Export the required filesystems in .Pa /etc/exports : .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact /usr -ro myclient # for SunOS: # /export/myclient -rw=myclient,root=myclient # for NetBSD: /export/myclient -maproot=root -alldirs myclient .Ed .Pp If the server and client are of the same architecture, then the client can share the server's .Pa /usr filesystem (as is done above). If not, you must build a properly fleshed out .Pa /usr partition for the client in some other place. .Pp If your server was a sparc, and your client a sun3, you might create and fill .Pa /export/usr.sun3 and then use the following .Pa /etc/exports lines: .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact /export/usr.sun3 -ro myclient /export/myclient -rw=myclient,root=myclient .Ed .Pp .It 9. Copy and customize at least the following files in .Pa /export/myclient/root : .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact # cd /export/myclient/root/etc # cp fstab.nfs fstab # cp /etc/hosts hosts # echo myclient > myname # echo 192.197.96.12 > hostname.le0 .Ed .Pp Note that "le0" above should be replaced with the name of the network interface that the client will use for booting. .Pp .It 10. Correct the critical mountpoints in the client's .Pa /etc/fstab (which will be .Pa /export/myclient/root/etc/fstab ) ie. .Bd -literal -offset indent -compact myserver:/export/myclient/root / nfs rw 0 0 myserver:/usr /usr nfs rw 0 0 .Ed .El .Sh FILES .Bl -tag -width /usr/mdec/rbootd -compact .It Pa /etc/ethers Ethernet addresses of known clients .It Pa /etc/bootparams client root and swap pathnames .It Pa /etc/exports exported NFS mount points .It Pa /etc/rbootd.conf configuration file for HP Remote Boot Daemon .It Pa /tftpboot location of boot programs loaded by the Sun PROM .It Pa /usr/mdec/rbootd location of boot programs loaded by the HP Boot ROM .El .Sh "SEE ALSO" .Xr rarpd 8 , .Xr ethers 5 , .Xr tftpd 8 , .Xr rpc.bootparamd 8 , .Xr bootparams 5 , .Xr mountd 8 , .Xr exports 5 , .Xr nfsd 8 , .Xr rbootd 8 , .Xr reboot 8 -- Mike Pritchard mpp@freebsd.org "Go that way. Really fast. If something gets in your way, turn" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 18:50:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA18268 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18263 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with SMTP id BAA06347 ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 01:55:03 +0100 (BST) To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 22:44:48 -0000." <6550.828917088@critter.tfs.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 01:55:02 +0100 Message-ID: <6345.828924902@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp wrote in message ID <6550.828917088@critter.tfs.com>: > I'm open to input on this, I just left it on as default to make sure there > would be a discussion :-) It's a nice security feature to have, but it'll cause too many questions if you leave it on. Document it somewhere prominent and leave it off. Gary From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 18:58:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA18604 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18599 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA08178; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:53:08 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604080223.LAA08178@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:53:07 +0930 (CST) Cc: louie@TransSys.COM, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, roell@blah.a.isar.de, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604071939.MAA00383@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 7, 96 12:39:52 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > While not an X server application, you'll note that xntpd uses SIGIO > > so that it might read and, most importanty, timestamp traffic arriving > > on the network. This is critical to making NTP accurately synchronize > > the clock. By using SIGIO, you can not have to worry nearly so much > > about long-running sections of code and not being able to check for > > pending input for a "long" time. The model of signal as 'interrupt' > > works extremely well for this sort of appliation. Of course, this all > > works Just Fine with sockets.. > > Signals are not events. What is wrong with select() that makes it > unsuitable for your use? The point is that as soon as the process involved runs again, its signal handler runs, effectively overriding any internal scheduling it is performing using select(). Imagine that you are using select() to watch several stream connections, and a large body of data appears on one. You bounce off and digest as much of it as possible, in the name of efficiency. This may take some time, and while you are doing it, you _won't_ be selecting on the other streams. So if one of these other streams wants attention, you lose. However, if you can get a signal when it wants attention, you can spend as long as you like being efficient with your bulk data, and still respond in a timely fashion to events that require it. select() is good for multiplexing, and efficient processing of bulk data. select() is _bad_ for rapid response to data. SIGIO is a convenient (but not necessarily appropriate) alternative that would be _bad_ for bulk data, but good for handling asynchronous arrival of exceptional data. > So it's not like you get increased response time or anything. Ah, but you do. It's just that you're thinking of the wrong scheduler. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 19:03:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA19069 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA19063 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA08202; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:59:38 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604080229.LAA08202@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:59:37 +0930 (CST) Cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604072000.NAA00425@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 7, 96 01:00:57 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > Is there some reason you can't just increase the buffer in the kernel > to prevent an overflow, if you insist on long delay state processing > of many events without going back out to the top level of the I/O > automaton? Because many commercial eunuchs don't provide this as an option. TR is looking for a portable solution. > The fix here is to virtualize all mouse I/O in the kernel instead of > presenting seperate abstractions that the X server has to deal with. This would be a wonderful idea. Except that convincing a vendor like SunSoft or SCO that your new spiffo mouse protocol was Just The Thing might not be so easy. 8( > Really, a buffer overflow is telling you one of two things: > > a) Your event buffer is too small This is obvious. However, the buffer size is effectively fixed. > b) You are taking too long in your atomaton before getting back > to the state where the buffered events can be processed, and > you need to fix the automaton. Not being anything of an Xpert, I can only suggest that the automaton is as it is for the sake of efficiency. Breaking it down and persistently selecting may well significantly degrade its performance. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 19:05:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA19175 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (root@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA19168 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by zap.io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA17868; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:04:47 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: zap.io.org: taob owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:04:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Joerg Wunsch cc: FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: 'ps' or procfs stuck in disk wait??? In-Reply-To: <199604080123.DAA01911@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > > It normally goes back to single-user, or reboots cleanly, even despite > of this message. Your hang must have been somewhere deeper. Even dropping into single-user would not be acceptable in the case of an unmanned POP. When I type "reboot" from a remote session, I expect the machine to bring itself back up again within a couple of minutes, barring hardware failure (which wasn't the case here). -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) System and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 19:19:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA20144 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20139 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA05931; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:19:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org, gpalmer@freefall.freebsd.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netscape install of FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 17:10:18 PDT." <199604080010.RAA01007@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 19:19:04 -0700 Message-ID: <5929.828929944@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Uh... correct me if I'm wrong, but an install will have to use > someone else's browser code because our isn't installed yet. Yes, of course. The basic idea would be that you install the machine using this basic sequence: 1. Boot 2. Select local or remote install. 2a. Remote install: Specify machine's IP configuration and bring up on the net. 2b. Local install: Ask for second disk containing lynx. 3. "server" is now spawned and running. 4. Using whichever browser you've selected, go through the menus and install the system. > certianly not "cross-browser" enough to deal with it. Imagine Mr. > Mac weenie trying to click the FreBSD "install now" button. 8-(. Please, I have enough nightmares! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 19:57:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA23184 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23179 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.ki.net (root@freebsd.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by ki.net (8.7.4/8.7.4) with ESMTP id WAA16914; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by freebsd.ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id WAA15838; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:57:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:57:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: davidg@Root.COM, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-Reply-To: <6550.828917088@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > The option to do non-existent port logging was recently added and defaults > > to on. I think it should default to off. In any case, it is controlled with a > > sysctl variable (I forget which one - do a sysctl -a). > > I'm open to input on this, I just left it on as default to make sure there > would be a discussion :-) > What is meant by "non-existent port" logging? What is a "non-existent port"? Marc G. Fournier | POP Mail Telnet Acct DNS Hosting System | WWW Services Database Services | Knowledge, Administrator | | Information and scrappy@ki.net | WWW: http://www.ki.net | Communications, Inc From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 20:00:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA23476 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23471 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA01778; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 19:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604080259.TAA01778@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 22:57:36 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 19:59:39 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> > The option to do non-existent port logging was recently added and defaults >> > to on. I think it should default to off. In any case, it is controlled with a >> > sysctl variable (I forget which one - do a sysctl -a). >> >> I'm open to input on this, I just left it on as default to make sure there >> would be a discussion :-) >> > > What is meant by "non-existent port" logging? What is a "non-existent >port"? Ahem. In this case it means "a port for which there is no listener/socket". -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 20:10:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA24109 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA24098 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.ki.net (root@freebsd.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by ki.net (8.7.4/8.7.4) with ESMTP id XAA17164; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by freebsd.ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id XAA16993; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:10:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:10:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: David Greenman cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-Reply-To: <199604080259.TAA01778@Root.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, David Greenman wrote: > >On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > >> > The option to do non-existent port logging was recently added and defaults > >> > to on. I think it should default to off. In any case, it is controlled with a > >> > sysctl variable (I forget which one - do a sysctl -a). > >> > >> I'm open to input on this, I just left it on as default to make sure there > >> would be a discussion :-) > >> > > > > What is meant by "non-existent port" logging? What is a "non-existent > >port"? > > Ahem. In this case it means "a port for which there is no listener/socket". > So something like ftpd/identd that has to be started up by inetd each time? is it possible to at least change the log level for the messages, so that you can redirect it to a file to its own? Marc G. Fournier | POP Mail Telnet Acct DNS Hosting System | WWW Services Database Services | Knowledge, Administrator | | Information and scrappy@ki.net | WWW: http://www.ki.net | Communications, Inc From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 20:17:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA24591 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA24585 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA01852; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604080316.UAA01852@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 23:10:55 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 20:16:53 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > What is meant by "non-existent port" logging? What is a "non-existent >> >port"? >> >> Ahem. In this case it means "a port for which there is no listener/socket". >> > So something like ftpd/identd that has to be started up by inetd each >time? No, not if inetd is listening on the port. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 21:18:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA28739 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA28711 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA08561; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:14:20 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604080444.OAA08561@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Please help me with my problem.. To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:14:20 +0930 (CST) Cc: nlan@athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr, hackers@FreeBSD.org, info@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604080048.CAA01620@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Apr 8, 96 02:48:07 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > > > i have the Diamond Stealth S3 Trio64V+ DRAM Video 2001. > > Every time i start the S3 server the screen goes blank and my > > computer hangs.. > > Lack of response is not ignorance, but often lack of sufficient > knowledge. I'm afraid that nobody is able to reproduce your problem, > and nobody knows offhand what it might be. :-( The problem is that the 64V+ is not (properly) supported by the X server distributed with 2.1R. He'll have to upgrade to the 3.1.2D beta in order to have a hope of making it work. > cheers, J"org -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 21:54:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA01109 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.aros.net (shell.aros.net [205.164.111.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA01103 Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from angio@localhost) by shell.aros.net (8.7.5/Unknown) id WAA10421; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:56:33 -0600 (MDT) From: Dave Andersen Message-Id: <199604080456.WAA10421@shell.aros.net> Subject: Re: Please help me with my problem.. To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:56:33 -0600 (MDT) Cc: nlan@athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr, hackers@FreeBSD.org, info@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604080048.CAA01620@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 8, 96 02:48:07 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Lo and behold, J Wunsch once said: > As Nikos Landrou wrote: > > > i have the Diamond Stealth S3 Trio64V+ DRAM Video 2001. > > Every time i start the S3 server the screen goes blank and my > > computer hangs.. > > > Please try to answer my mail as soon as possible... > > Lack of response is not ignorance, but often lack of sufficient > knowledge. I'm afraid that nobody is able to reproduce your problem, > and nobody knows offhand what it might be. :-( I don't have personal knowledge of the Tri64V+, and, as J'org mentioned, I can't reproduce the problem, but here's a bit of a suggestion. (If not, back to the drawing board, 'eh? Or to comp.windows.x.i386unix -- they're a better repository for X problems, because I'd wager your problem isn't FreeBSD specific). It sounds vaguely like a problem I was having with a later-version ATI Mach64 card. (No, not the com4 problem.. that appears to have been fixed in the version I'm using). However, I didn't experience the system hang -- I could still abort X using ctrl-alt-escape, some of the time. Sometimes I had to reboot. The solution in my case was to get the latest beta of the X312 server. From the RELNOTES from the 312D beta, "Fixed detection of Trio64V+ cards." My guess is that this should help with your problem. ftp://ftp.xfree86.org/3.1.2D/FreeBSD-3.0.5/X312DS3.tgz -Dave Andersen -- angio@aros.net Complete virtual hosting and business-oriented system administration Internet services. (WWW, FTP, email) http://www.aros.net/ http://www.aros.net/about/virtual "There are only two industries that refer to thier customers as 'users'." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 7 22:18:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA02621 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA02612 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA01392; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:17:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199604080517.WAA01392@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Dave Andersen cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Please help me with my problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 22:56:33 MDT." <199604080456.WAA10421@shell.aros.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 22:17:58 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yeap, X related questions should go to the xfree86 mailing list or to comp.windows.x.i386unix I suggest just trying XFree86-3.1.2D with the S3 Trio64V+ and please do read whatever documentation is available. Usually, is something like REAMDE.S3 Cheers, Amancio >>> Dave Andersen said: > Lo and behold, J Wunsch once said: > > As Nikos Landrou wrote: > > > > > i have the Diamond Stealth S3 Trio64V+ DRAM Video 2001. > > > Every time i start the S3 server the screen goes blank and my > > > computer hangs.. > > > > > Please try to answer my mail as soon as possible... > > > > Lack of response is not ignorance, but often lack of sufficient > > knowledge. I'm afraid that nobody is able to reproduce your problem, > > and nobody knows offhand what it might be. :-( > > I don't have personal knowledge of the Tri64V+, and, as J'org > mentioned, I can't reproduce the problem, but here's a bit of a > suggestion. (If not, back to the drawing board, 'eh? Or to > comp.windows.x.i386unix -- they're a better repository for X problems, > because I'd wager your problem isn't FreeBSD specific). > > It sounds vaguely like a problem I was having with a later-version ATI > Mach64 card. (No, not the com4 problem.. that appears to have been fixed > in the version I'm using). However, I didn't experience the system hang > -- I could still abort X using ctrl-alt-escape, some of the time. > Sometimes I had to reboot. The solution in my case was to get the latest > beta of the X312 server. > > From the RELNOTES from the 312D beta, > > "Fixed detection of Trio64V+ cards." > > My guess is that this should help with your problem. > > ftp://ftp.xfree86.org/3.1.2D/FreeBSD-3.0.5/X312DS3.tgz > > -Dave Andersen > > -- > angio@aros.net Complete virtual hosting and business-oriented > system administration Internet services. (WWW, FTP, email) > http://www.aros.net/ http://www.aros.net/about/virtual > "There are only two industries that refer to thier customers as 'users'." > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 00:23:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA08164 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA08159 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0u6BIF-0003wBC; Mon, 8 Apr 96 00:23 PDT Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA07224; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 07:23:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: davidg@Root.COM, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 22:57:36 -0400." Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 07:23:36 +0000 Message-ID: <7222.828948216@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > > The option to do non-existent port logging was recently added and defa ults > > > to on. I think it should default to off. In any case, it is controlled wi th a > > > sysctl variable (I forget which one - do a sysctl -a). > > > > I'm open to input on this, I just left it on as default to make sure there > > would be a discussion :-) > > > > What is meant by "non-existent port" logging? What is a "non-existent > port"? A TCP or UDP port that nobody listens to. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 00:48:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA09205 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perki.connect.com.au (perki.connect.com.au [192.189.54.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09193 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from Unemeton@localhost) by perki.connect.com.au id RAA15583 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6); Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:48:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: perki.connect.com.au: Unemeton set sender to giles@nemeton.com.au using -f >Received: from localhost (giles@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nemeton.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA11528; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:45:11 +1000 Message-Id: <199604080745.RAA11528@nemeton.com.au> To: Mike Pritchard cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless(8) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 17:45:10 +1000 From: Giles Lean Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Apr 1996 18:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Mike Pritchard wrote: > Can someone who does diskless booting under FreeBSD please > review this diskless(8) man page obtained from NetBSD and > see if it reflects reality, and possibly even add some FreeBSD > specific info to the man page where appropriate? Thanks. This is one of the divergent areas in the two systems, unfortunately, but since I've been playing with NFS diskless on both *BSD systems I'll write it up. There are minor differences in the names of files etc that tftp looks for, and some more major differences in the interaction between the boot code and the kernel. If any kernel hacker cares to update the diskless boot code we could use the documentation as is, of course! Regards, Giles From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 03:08:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA17075 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA17069 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA25433; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:04:40 +1000 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:04:40 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199604081004.UAA25433@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: louie@TransSys.COM, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, roell@blah.a.isar.de, roell@xinside.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >... >What a SIGIO based scheme does is interrupt whatever computation is >going on, read the packet from the socket, timestamp it, and put it >into a queue to be processed at some later time. Once you've noted >the arrive time, the time criticality is gone, and you can process it >at your leisure. This doesn't help much if there are `M' higher priority hoggish interrupt handlers that run before the packet's interrupt handler, and `N' other hog processes in the kernel or in user code that run before the SIGIO is delivered. >From what I can see, there are four alternatives to the SIGIO scheme: >... >- OS support for timestamps. I prototyped this in the original ntp3.4 I think this is essential, not an alternative. You still have to worry about higher priority hoggish interrupt handlers. >... >Response time isn't really the problem so much as precision in marking >an event, such as packet arrival. If you pay reasonable care to all >this, you can get the phase (that is, offset) of the local clock to >within single digits of milliseconds over a somewhat reasonable >quality network path, like an local ethernet. Heck, you can even tell >the temperature of the room your computer is in by calibrating the >frequency offset of the computer's clock based on the effect the >temperature has on the crystal oscillator. >Of course, some of us are really weird this way. That how we end up >with PLL models of the computer's clock in the kernel. Some of us wouldn't settle for an offset of 7 digits of nanoseconds :-). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 03:11:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA17185 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gerard (groudier@athena.iplus.fr [194.51.186.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA17179 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from groudier@localhost) by gerard (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA00154; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:11:26 GMT Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:11:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Gerard Roudier X-Sender: groudier@gerard To: Nikos Landrou cc: hackers@freebsd.org, info@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please help me with my problem.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Nikos Landrou wrote: > Hi.. > before a few days, i finally got Freebsd 2.1 on cd from Walnut Creek. > I have a problem with the S3 x-windows server... > i have the Diamond Stealth S3 Trio64V+ DRAM Video 2001. > Every time i start the S3 server the screen goes blank and my > computer hangs.. > i have run the xf86config utility and i'm sure there is nothing wrong > with it... > The VGA 16 Server runs properly, but i need greater resolutions and > more colors.. > Please try to answer my mail as soon as possible... > Have you tried XFree86-3.1.2 current and beta S3 Server ? You can find the last S3 X Server at ftp.xfree86.org, /pub/XFree86/3.1.2D/FreeBSD-2.0.5/X312DS3.tgz. Regards, Gerard. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 03:14:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA17372 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blah.a.isar.de (root@blah.a.isar.de [194.45.233.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA17365 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roell@localhost) by blah.a.isar.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA00330; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:03:13 +0200 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:03:13 +0200 From: Thomas Roell Message-Id: <199604081003.MAA00330@blah.a.isar.de> To: Terry Lambert Cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de (Thomas Roell), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604072132.OAA00676@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199604072036.WAA00909@blah.a.isar.de> <199604072132.OAA00676@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In your message of 7 April 1996 you write: > You can do the same thing without needing another process if you popen > a fipe and write events to yourself that can then be selected upon. > > THis might very well fix your buffering id 1K vs. 6k (5k pipe + 1k kernel) > is enough to fix the problem for you. I think you don't get it. The problem is no matter what I do, select() will be only called rarely, which means that a pipe would not help at all. Increasing the buffer size by any means just moves the problem to a different threshold, rather than solving it. Just another example. We are (aehm from the sales prespective will be) supporting HW-MPEG playback. The MPEG chip is fed with data asynchronously via periodical SIGALARM calls. It is easily possible that depending upon your bitstream, that for a while the X-Server will not get back to the select() at all. > > Right. This is what SVR4 (except Solaris), SCO and AIX are doing. > > Well. It seems that you really want a fix in another area of BSD, > and that this fix is just a software fix to the fact that the other > area is broken. 8-). What I want is being able to open multple /dev/ttyd* devices and get a SIGIO if there is new input available. - Thomas -- Denver Office THOMAS ROELL /\ Das Reh springt hoch, +1(303)298-7478 X INSIDE INC / \/\ das Reh springt weit, 1801 Broadway, Suite 1710 / \ \/\ was soll es tun, Denver, CO 80202 roell@xinside.com / Oelch! \ \ es hat ja Zeit. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 03:15:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA17428 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blah.a.isar.de (root@blah.a.isar.de [194.45.233.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA17416 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roell@localhost) by blah.a.isar.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA00308; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:47:34 +0200 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:47:34 +0200 From: Thomas Roell Message-Id: <199604080947.LAA00308@blah.a.isar.de> To: Michael Smith Cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604080229.LAA08202@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199604072000.NAA00425@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199604080229.LAA08202@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In your message of 8 April 1996 you write: > > The fix here is to virtualize all mouse I/O in the kernel instead of > > presenting seperate abstractions that the X server has to deal with. > > This would be a wonderful idea. Except that convincing a vendor like > SunSoft or SCO that your new spiffo mouse protocol was Just The Thing > might not be so easy. 8( It's even worse. What if you want to add support for a new graphics tablet ? Relink the kernel, and add a kernel driver ? This is kind of too much for the avare end user. I could do this with SVR4, which allows to push STREAMS modules ontop of let's say a serial device. But still it's to complex to be used realitically. > > b) You are taking too long in your atomaton before getting back > > to the state where the buffered events can be processed, and > > you need to fix the automaton. > > Not being anything of an Xpert, I can only suggest that the automaton is > as it is for the sake of efficiency. Breaking it down and persistently > selecting may well significantly degrade its performance. Right. You have two ways with the current scheduling. Either increase temporal performance by decreasing interactivty, or increasing interactivity by decreasin overally performance. The only way to get out of this deadlock is either to seperate the device-io from the client-io, or use a dynamic schedluing, which then again solves only part of the problem. - Thomas -- Denver Office THOMAS ROELL /\ Das Reh springt hoch, +1(303)298-7478 X INSIDE INC / \/\ das Reh springt weit, 1801 Broadway, Suite 1710 / \ \/\ was soll es tun, Denver, CO 80202 roell@xinside.com / Oelch! \ \ es hat ja Zeit. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 03:22:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA17764 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blah.a.isar.de (root@blah.a.isar.de [194.45.233.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA17757 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roell@localhost) by blah.a.isar.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA00311; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:49:33 +0200 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:49:33 +0200 From: Thomas Roell Message-Id: <199604080949.LAA00311@blah.a.isar.de> To: Michael Smith Cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), louie@TransSys.COM, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604080223.LAA08178@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199604071939.MAA00383@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199604080223.LAA08178@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In your message of 8 April 1996 you write: > select() is good for multiplexing, and efficient processing of bulk data. > select() is _bad_ for rapid response to data. > > SIGIO is a convenient (but not necessarily appropriate) alternative that > would be _bad_ for bulk data, but good for handling asynchronous arrival > of exceptional data. Right. But if you look at it, then the amount of exceptional data is extremely small to the amount of normal bulk data. - Thomas -- Denver Office THOMAS ROELL /\ Das Reh springt hoch, +1(303)298-7478 X INSIDE INC / \/\ das Reh springt weit, 1801 Broadway, Suite 1710 / \ \/\ was soll es tun, Denver, CO 80202 roell@xinside.com / Oelch! \ \ es hat ja Zeit. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 05:50:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA24330 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 05:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spooky.rwwa.com (rwwa.com [198.115.177.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA24298 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 05:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.rwwa.com (localhost.rwwa.com [127.0.0.1]) by spooky.rwwa.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA03912 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:49:35 -0400 Message-Id: <199604081249.IAA03912@spooky.rwwa.com> X-Authentication-Warning: spooky.rwwa.com: Host localhost.rwwa.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU binutils port In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Apr 1996 16:29:05 MST." <199604062329.QAA26137@rover.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 08:49:34 -0400 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > : Out of curiosity, why is that (both of thats that is... ;-) > > Because binutils doesn't support FreeBSD's shared libraries. Also, > gcc is bundled with FreeBSD, so there is no need to have it as a port. As you noticed, cross building is a legitimate reason for wanting both gcc and binutils to compile on FreeBSD. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 592 8935, Net: witr@rwwa.COM From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 06:43:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA26740 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA26731 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA07711; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:41:27 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199604081341.IAA07711@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: roell@blah.a.isar.de (Thomas Roell) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:41:27 -0500 (CDT) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604071245.OAA00414@blah.a.isar.de> from "Thomas Roell" at Apr 7, 96 02:45:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, > The other reasons is more tricky. We do have reports from people that > under heavy load they loose sync of the PS/2 mouse. The PS/2 mouse is > different from all other mice, as there is now way to figure out from > the byte-stream when a 3 byte packet starts. There is supposed to be a > sync-bit, but half of the PS/2 mice do not set it. The PS/2 kernel > driver in FreeBSD (and much worse in Interactive UNIX) has only a > limited buffer. Assume you have 1024 bytes, then you can buffer only > 341 packets (and one additional byte). If the mouse reports 50 times > per second the position, then after roughly 7 seconds you loose sync > if you are unable to read the input (3 seconds with ISC). If you run > now X-clients which are hogging the X-server with requests that are > longrunning (like mpeg_play) and you move the mouse for a while you > might want to restart the X-server to get the mouse into sync again. The other "solution" (the only solution, IMHO) to this "problem" is to sit back and consider why "restarting" the X-server gets the mouse into sync again. It doesn't. You're gambling that at some point, the user stopped moving the &*$&*^@#^$ mouse in order to go restart the Xserver, which implicitly resyncs you. Now you have to go build your mouse driver to be time-aware in addition to bytestream-aware. And you can find an arbitrary rule that works, maybe something like "if the mouse hasn't given me input in 10 seconds, set input automaton to state 0". You can even publicize it to your users. That is, perhaps, not the prettiest solution, but sometimes you take what you can get with cheap hardware. I've been there, done that, even with some fairly pricey hardware. I know it sucks to have to write a "clever" driver :-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 07:21:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA28284 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 07:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (root@usi-00-10.Naperville.unety.net [204.70.107.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA28277 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 07:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webster.unety.net (webster.unety.net [206.31.202.8]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA02479; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:16:18 -0500 Received: by webster.unety.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BB252C.664669E0@webster.unety.net>; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:18:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01BB252C.664669E0@webster.unety.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Jordan K. Hubbard'" , Terry Lambert Cc: "gpalmer@freefall.freebsd.org" , "hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" , Jeffrey Hsu Subject: RE: Netscape install of FreeBSD Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:18:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sunday, April 07, 1996 4:41 PM, Jordan K. Hubbard[SMTP:jkh@time.cdrom.com] wrote: @ @I would far prefer to generate gifs on the fly that represented pie @charts, colored bar graphs (representing the sizes of your various @partitions and free space) and such, but the idea of adding a @generalized rendering API to this whole thing finally brought me up @short with the realization that it was a whole 'nother engineering @project unto itself and I should probably just make the existing tools @work a little nicer before even contemplating such a massive project. @ @ Jordan @ ANSI X3.110 handles this sort of thing... see my four part series in BYTE magazine...:-) a group in the Soviet Union has developed a Netscape Plug-In...which they claim will be available in April...that's right this is April...:-) -- Jim Fleming UNETY Systems, Inc. Naperville, IL 60563 e-mail: JimFleming@unety.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 08:05:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA02420 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA02408 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA07859; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:04:42 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199604081504.KAA07859@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: interrupts and such To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:04:42 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604062135.HAA11034@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Apr 7, 96 07:35:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Noticed today on news.sol.net: > > >hummin# vmstat -i > >interrupt total rate > >clk0 irq0 16981562 261 > >rtc0 irq8 8308881 128 > >fdc0 irq6 1 0 > >sc0 irq1 1831 0 > >ed0 irq10 9768007 150 > >Total 35060282 540 > > >What the heck, with clk0? > > The counter for clk0 interrupts is used to count all clock and pci Ahhhhhhhhhhh, damn, nevermind, I remember someone mentioning that once, and I filed it away in my bin of curiousities that promptly got forgotten.. :-( > interrupts in non-current versions of FreeBSD. You should upgrade > that crufty ethernet card :-). That's an SMC8013, that's not a "crufty ethernet card". But if you're volunteering, I will remind you that Solaria is a free public access UNIX system and I encourage donations, so feel free to send me a nice PCI card. :-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 08:22:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA03237 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03231 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) id RAA08698; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:21:56 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nietzsche.bowtie.nl (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA10398; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:07:43 +0200 Message-Id: <199604081307.PAA10398@nietzsche.bowtie.nl> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.1 5/23/95 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , hsu@freefall.freebsd.org (Jeffrey Hsu), gpalmer@freefall.freebsd.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netscape install of FreeBSD In-reply-to: jkh's message of Sun, 07 Apr 1996 14:41:38 -0700. <5086.828913298@time.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 15:07:41 +0200 From: Marc van Kempen Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > specifically, Jordan and I talked a bit about using a WWW browser and > > > > CGI scripts to create the configuration manager for post-install stuff > > > > like adding/deleting users, changing /etc/sysconfig, etc. > > > > > > I meant the install install, that is, click a button from Netscape > > > running in Windows or Linux and it goes off and partitions your drive, > > > downloads FreeBSD, installs it, sets up the boot manager, asks you some > > > questions and writes the appropriate files onto the newly created BSD ufs, > > > then reboots. > > > > > > This is an example of network software distribution which everyone seems > > > to want to do with the web. > > > > This is hard. > > > > It's hard because thee is no standard extension for UNIX executables, > > I don't think this is so much an issue. > > You'll recall awhile back that I was calling for a general-purpose > library that would provide an "embedable HTTP server" for an > application, allowing you to specify your "HTML" in some higher-level > syntax that provided for genuine callbacks and such without having to > deal with any of the thoroughly disgusting form and entry field hacks. > You'd just say which entities you wanted in each document or > interaction screen and the library would interact with the HTTP port > like any other server, processing incoming requests and turning them > into standardised callbacks. > I spotted a small library that will do this (embed an HTTP server in your application), and the copyright is BSD-ish. paws http://www.inria.fr/koala/phk.html > The reason I stopped dreaming about this and decided to punt the whole > idea was that I disliked the idea of using only the standard HTML > objects (text, entry fields, buttons, and so on) for doing my > interfaces. How would I display the current disk layout, for example? > As rows of "X"'s or something? Bleah! ASCII art is your department, > not mine.. :-) > > I would far prefer to generate gifs on the fly that represented pie > charts, colored bar graphs (representing the sizes of your various > partitions and free space) and such, but the idea of adding a > generalized rendering API to this whole thing finally brought me up > short with the realization that it was a whole 'nother engineering > project unto itself and I should probably just make the existing tools > work a little nicer before even contemplating such a massive project. > There is another library that will allow you to draw into a giffile. You can produce an executable that will produce an image of a disklayout given the proper parameters and then show it on your page. It also has a reasonable copyright. gd http://siva.cshl.org/gd/gd.html Regards, Marc. ---------------------------------------------------- Marc van Kempen BowTie Technology Email: marc@bowtie.nl WWW & Databases tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65 fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86 http://www.bowtie.nl ---------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 08:34:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA03963 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.com (ip54-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03945 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA29919 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:16:14 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199604081516.LAA29919@hda.com> Subject: POSIX O_SYNC versus our O_FSYNC To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We're porting a commercial package that uses the POSIX O_SYNC flag in open. We don't have that - we have the undocumented O_FSYNC. Can someone in the know comment on the O_?SYNC flags? POSIX defines the flags O_DSYNC, O_RSYNC and O_SYNC: O_DSYNC is data integrity, that is, a transfer is complete when the data and anything you need to consider it finished is safely transferred. This excludes items like file access times but includes items like file sizes. O_RSYNC is read sync, and seems to only imply that you'll read whatever another process last wrote (assuming they wrote it using either O_DSYNC or O_SYNC). O_SYNC is file system integrity, and is DSYNC plus file access times etc. Does our O_FSYNC correspond to either O_SYNC or O_DSYNC? Is O_RSYNC a NOP for UFS? -- Temporarily via "hdalog@zipnet.net"... Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 08:37:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA04116 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04095 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Mon, 8 Apr 96 11:36:50 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.151]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Mon, 8 Apr 96 11:36:47 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id KAA10442; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:36:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:36:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604081536.KAA10442@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9604080114.AA12449@cbsky.cb.att.com> (dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com) Subject: Re: pgcc and kernels Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:14:46 -0400 From: dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com Thanks. Found it. Made it (per Jordan's suggestion ala Makefile). Didn't work. Panic'ed like before (trace): _scsi_attachdevs + x20 _ncr_attach + x199 Okay, so this is either a bug in the compiler (most likely) or in the kernel. Especially in the latter case it would be nice to identify it. If you are willing to isolate the problem, I'd suggest starting with a bisection on the kernel files dragged in by the ncr scsi device. Compile half of them with 2.6.3, boot, etc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 08:47:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA04777 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA04765 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id QAA19534; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604072305.QAA19534@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:05:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de, terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604072132.OAA00676@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 7, 96 02:32:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [lots deleted] sounds like what is needed is a differnt protocol to be made available from the various mouses.. Under MACH all mice (serial etc al) come in through the same device and they are translated to a common protocol.. if we were to do that (in conjunction with the two console authors maybe) then we could add the following info to each mouse 'packet' number of following mouse events..(not yet read) microsecond timestamp.. moment when the packet was complete. it would require puting a tty protocol into the approriate tty line for serial mice, and possibly a differnt interface for such things as ps2 mice, but it might be useful. julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 09:04:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA05886 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibp.ibp.fr (ibp.ibp.fr [132.227.60.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA05876 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blaise.ibp.fr (blaise.ibp.fr [132.227.60.1]) by ibp.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with ESMTP id SAA15759 ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:04:29 +0200 Received: from (uucp@localhost) by blaise.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with UUCP id SAA25481 ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:04:46 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.7.5/keltia-uucp-2.7) id MAA02968; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:07:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199604081007.MAA02968@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: -current & "Connection attempt to..." console messages? To: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:07:39 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, dob@nasvr1.cb.att.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at "Apr 7, 96 05:46:42 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#1864 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Marc G. Fournier said: > Benign or not...my screen is full of them. Does anyone know what > is causing them? And is it restricted to the -current kernel, or is this > happening in -stable as well? I have a very recent kernel (see my signature) and have yet to see the messages. I don't have a ident running though. If you have so many of these messages turn them off with sysctl -w net.inet.tcp.log_in_vain=0 sysctl -w net.inet.udp.log_in_vain=0 -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #10: Sun Apr 7 18:52:11 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 09:52:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA09178 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09170 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14902(14)>; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:51:37 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177476>; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:51:28 -0700 To: Jim Fleming cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Check IP Version In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Apr 96 22:28:56 PST." <01BB2419.36344C40@webster.unety.net> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:51:22 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Apr8.095128pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <01BB2419.36344C40@webster.unety.net> you write: >It is not desirable for new versions of IP to "break" existing code. I have not >provide this but in studying the SLIP code I see that there is never really >a check done to see of the IP header is of version 4. If you are running SLIP, then it is carrying IPv4. Run PPP if you want to do different protocols on one link. Note that the IPv6 people decided that there were too many broken implementations that don't check the IP version number, so they decided to get a new ethertype to carry IPv6 frames. Bill From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 09:53:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA09259 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca [198.161.206.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09223 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28833; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:52:44 -0600 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:52:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Ronald Grootkarzyn To: fbsd-ports , fbsd-bugs , fbsd-hackers Subject: Invalid Type '->' wrt GCC/ctype.h (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I re-installed bin distribution from cd-rom with the "install.sh" command. GCC now works fine. I only had to make changes to the master password file and sysconfig. Thank-you for your time. Ronald Grootkarzyn email: ron@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca 4013 - 114 Avenue phone: (403) 479-2672 Edmonton, AB, T5W 0S9 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:13:20 -0700 (MST) From: Ronald Grootkarzyn To: fbsd-ports , fbsd-hackers , fbsd-bugs Subject: Invalid Type '->' wrt GCC/ctype.h To those that may know; Please consider and reply, if possible, with RFI's or solutions to the following complation merror message; I run a custom FBSD 2.10 kernel (sound for sbpro & SYS V support) on a 486 pc compatible. When compiling the following programs; xlockmore 3.7 and mSQL 1.0.6+, I receive the following error message from ctype.h .../ctype.h:147: invalid type arguement of '->' in the following functions; __istype, __tolower, __toupper. I have successfully compiled xlockmore from FBSD 2.0 forward and have compiled mSQL on FBSD 2.0. Thank-you in advance for considering these questions, which are beyond my very limited C programming experience. Respectfully ron Ronald Grootkarzyn email: ron@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca 4013 - 114 Avenue phone: (403) 479-2672 Edmonton, AB, T5W 0S9 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 10:14:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA10687 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA10679 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA23215; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604081714.KAA23215@austin.polstra.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: witr@rwwa.com, imp@village.org, chuckr@Glue.umd.edu Subject: Re: GNU binutils port Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 10:14:11 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Replying to several postings in this thread ... Robert Withrow wrote: > I don't see a port for GCC or the binutils in the 2.1 release, and > binutils don't seem to build out of the box on 2.1 (at least a > plain old ./configure fails). > > Out of curiosity, why is that (both of thats that is... ;-) I've made a couple of fairly serious attempts to get binutils-2.6 working for FreeBSD. I hate to sound discouraging, but it's a pretty huge task. First of all, there's little hope of bringing any of our current ld code forward into binutils-2.6. Too much has changed in binutils. Also, I don't think this would be the right approach, as it would simply bring forward the same problems that we already have in our linker. E.g.: undefined symbols referenced from shared libraries are not diagnosed; symbols from static libs are preferred over those from shared libs, regardless of command line order; and others. In my first attempt to update binutils-2.6, I tried just massaging the existing "i386-unknown-freebsd" target into working order. I actually got that limping along, in the sense that it could link object files and libraries together into programs that would execute under FreeBSD. But there were still some small things wrong with the executables produced by the linker. Worse, there was _no_ shared library support. Worthless. My next try was to take the existing SunOS/a.out target, and try to adapt it to FreeBSD. This is a much more promising approach, because the shared library support for SunOS is already present in binutils, and our shared libraries are very similar to SunOS's. But of course, there are some significant differences. The worst problem seems to be that our dynamic symbols are a different shape than Sun's -- i.e., we've added a "size" field. The existing binutils code assumes that dynamic symbols look just like static symbols. And there doesn't seem to be a way to modify just the dynamic symbol handling, short of copying the entire SunOS support code (huge) and then changing a few details. I don't like the idea of duplicating that much code (for maintenance reasons), so again, I put it down and did something more fun. I still think this is a viable approach, but I can only work on this stuff for maybe a week at a time before it drives me temporarily insane. Anybody who's ever worked on binutils can tell you that it's a mind- boggling web of indirections. Nothing is what it appears to be. Things that look like function calls turn out to be macros that have been defined, undefined, and redefined, only to expand to indirect function calls through a table that's also been defined, undefined, and redefined. There is practically no documentation, and almost all of it is out of date and wrong. What I'm saying is: It's a _very_ frustrating and unrewarding thing to work on. That's the real reason there's no FreeBSD port of binutils-2.6. Warner Losh wrote: > There is some noise about ELF fixing all of this, but I'm not sure > how much of that is GEE WIZZ stuff, and how much is production > quality hardened code. Right, that's my elfkit. It's not being "marketed" to non-ELF-developers, that's true, but it seems to be quite solid. Here's one data point. Recently, on a lark, I got into the XFree86 source directory, and typed "elf-make World". (The kit includes a script "elf-make" that invokes "make" in such a way as to use the ELF tools instead of the standard a.out tools.) To my surprise, it succeeded at building all of the X libraries and many of the programs. The only programs that wouldn't build were those that needed libraries which I haven't ported to ELF. (Mostly, the math library.) One program that did build OK was xclock. On my -current system, I typed "./xclock" and it worked just fine. This is with shared libraries, late binding, the whole nine yards. (Note: Don't try this at home, yet. I was using newer stuff than the currently-released version of elfkit. I'll release it soon. I've been waiting on a couple of things from other people.) The ELF compiler, assembler, and linker are much more solid than one might think. The reason is that the Linux people have been testing them and debugging them and _using_ them for a very long time now. Chuck Robey wrote: > Actually, that was John Polstra, and he did it for 2.1. According > to the last I read, he was bringing it forward to -current ... Right, Peter Wemm is working on getting the library changes integrated into -current. I'll probably make one more 2.1-based release, just to bring in many bug fixes that our friends over in the Linux camp have come up with. > but the Elfkit he made is in wcarchive's incoming. I don't see it there, and in any case, I certainly didn't put it there. The master site is: ftp://ftp.polstra.com/pub/FreeBSD/elfkit/ Please read and understand the README.FIRST file before bothering to fetch the kit. It's not for weenies (yet). > It REQUIRES gcc and binutils. Just to clear up any possible misunderstanding, it requires the standard gcc-2.7.2 and binutils-2.6 sources from any GNU site. It includes patches to those, to make them work properly for FreeBSD/ELF. You don't have to do any porting yourself. Back to Robert ... > As you noticed, cross building is a legitimate reason for wanting > both gcc and binutils to compile on FreeBSD. As cross-development tools, they _will_ compile and work, out of the box, on FreeBSD. They just don't work as native tools. -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 10:21:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA11243 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA11234 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA26093; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:19:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199604081719.LAA26093@rover.village.org> To: Robert Withrow Subject: Re: GNU binutils port Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 08 Apr 1996 08:49:34 EDT Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 11:19:47 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : As you noticed, cross building is a legitimate reason for wanting : both gcc and binutils to compile on FreeBSD. gcc builds out of the box for cross compiling on FreeSBD. Since the ports are designed to have just a make done and it works, there is no need to have gcc as a port. The reason being that you must do some manual configuration before the cross compilation will work. I thought thte whole point of doing a "port" was to eliminate that. Also, building a cross compiler can still be a bit of a black art. It is best done by hand because there are a number of niggling little logistical issues that trip up people in the process. I think that I must be missing something here... Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 11:47:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA15907 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA15901 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA02521; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:46:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199604081846.LAA02521@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "JULIAN Elischer" cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Apr 1996 16:05:20 PDT." <199604072305.QAA19534@ref.tfs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 11:46:08 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wow protocol independent mouse event handling and a more efficient mouse event handling not too say that is a lot easier to maintain the different mouse protocols in the kernel rather than in the X server. Cheers, Amancio >>> "JULIAN Elischer" said: > [lots deleted] > > sounds like what is needed is a differnt protocol to be made available > from the various mouses.. > Under MACH all mice (serial etc al) come in through the same > device and they are translated to a common protocol.. > > if we were to do that (in conjunction with the two console authors maybe) > then we could add the following info to each mouse 'packet' > > number of following mouse events..(not yet read) > microsecond timestamp.. moment when the packet was complete. > > it would require puting a tty protocol into the approriate > tty line for serial mice, and possibly a differnt interface for > such things as ps2 mice, but it might be useful. > > julian > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 11:50:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA16154 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA16147 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA02562; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:48:28 -0700 Message-Id: <199604081848.LAA02562@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Thomas Roell cc: Terry Lambert , msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 12:03:13 +0200." <199604081003.MAA00330@blah.a.isar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 11:48:27 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If you have a good idea and you encounter a lot of resistance from this group it means that the group wants you to implement it 8) Cheers, Amancio >>> Thomas Roell said: > In your message of 7 April 1996 you write: > > > You can do the same thing without needing another process if you popen > > a fipe and write events to yourself that can then be selected upon. > > > > THis might very well fix your buffering id 1K vs. 6k (5k pipe + 1k kernel) > > is enough to fix the problem for you. > > I think you don't get it. The problem is no matter what I do, select() > will be only called rarely, which means that a pipe would not help at > all. Increasing the buffer size by any means just moves the problem to > a different threshold, rather than solving it. > > Just another example. We are (aehm from the sales prespective will be) > supporting HW-MPEG playback. The MPEG chip is fed with data > asynchronously via periodical SIGALARM calls. It is easily possible > that depending upon your bitstream, that for a while the X-Server will > not get back to the select() at all. > > > > Right. This is what SVR4 (except Solaris), SCO and AIX are doing. > > > > Well. It seems that you really want a fix in another area of BSD, > > and that this fix is just a software fix to the fact that the other > > area is broken. 8-). > > What I want is being able to open multple /dev/ttyd* devices and get a > SIGIO if there is new input available. > > - Thomas > -- > Denver Office THOMAS ROELL /\ Das Reh springt hoc h, > +1(303)298-7478 X INSIDE INC / \/\ das Reh springt wei t, > 1801 Broadway, Suite 1710 / \ \/\ was soll es tu n, > Denver, CO 80202 roell@xinside.com / Oelch! \ \ es hat ja Zei t. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 11:54:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA16516 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA16499 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA02584; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:53:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199604081853.LAA02584@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Thomas Roell cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 11:47:34 +0200." <199604080947.LAA00308@blah.a.isar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 11:53:43 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Now if we had a mechanism like ast delivery in VMS you wouldn't be having all this problems. 8) I often wonder why the kludgy asynch signal notification was not taken a step further to implement full asynchronous i/o . Aside from that tty drivers would have to be split into two parts: one to do the i/o at a high priority and the other half to process the tty events. Amancio >>> Thomas Roell said: > In your message of 8 April 1996 you write: > > > > The fix here is to virtualize all mouse I/O in the kernel instead of > > > presenting seperate abstractions that the X server has to deal with. > > > > This would be a wonderful idea. Except that convincing a vendor like > > SunSoft or SCO that your new spiffo mouse protocol was Just The Thing > > might not be so easy. 8( > > It's even worse. What if you want to add support for a new graphics > tablet ? Relink the kernel, and add a kernel driver ? This is kind of > too much for the avare end user. I could do this with SVR4, which > allows to push STREAMS modules ontop of let's say a serial device. But > still it's to complex to be used realitically. > > > > b) You are taking too long in your atomaton before getting back > > > to the state where the buffered events can be processed, and > > > you need to fix the automaton. > > > > Not being anything of an Xpert, I can only suggest that the automaton is > > as it is for the sake of efficiency. Breaking it down and persistently > > selecting may well significantly degrade its performance. > > Right. You have two ways with the current scheduling. Either increase > temporal performance by decreasing interactivty, or increasing > interactivity by decreasin overally performance. The only way to get > out of this deadlock is either to seperate the device-io from the > client-io, or use a dynamic schedluing, which then again solves only > part of the problem. > > - Thomas > -- > Denver Office THOMAS ROELL /\ Das Reh springt hoc h, > +1(303)298-7478 X INSIDE INC / \/\ das Reh springt wei t, > 1801 Broadway, Suite 1710 / \ \/\ was soll es tu n, > Denver, CO 80202 roell@xinside.com / Oelch! \ \ es hat ja Zei t. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 12:15:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA19364 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FNAL.FNAL.Gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.110.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA19350 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:15:00 -0700 (PDT) From: DHIMAN@d0sb15.FNAL.Gov Received: from DECNET-MAIL (DHIMAN@D0SB15) by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.0-5 #3998) id <01I3AVG1AQA800009I@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Apr 1996 14:14:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 14:14:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: problem in loading kernel To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-id: <01I3AVG1AV0200009I@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory X-VMS-To: FNAL::SMTP%"hackers@freebsd.org" X-VMS-Cc: DHIMAN MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I am experienceing a problem rebuilding the kernel. Here's the story: I installed FreeBSD 2.1 on my Dell P133c. I couldn't get X running because the default kernel doesn't support the PS/2 mouse that I have. So, I attempted to re-build the kernel (I would try this anyway, to get a streamlined kernel). I went to /usr/src/sys/i386/conf, copied GENERIC to MYKERNEL and modified the latter following the instructions in the handbook. The first three of the next steps finished successfully: # /usr/sbin/config MYKERNEL # cd ../../compile/MYKERNEL # make depend but then, # make failed. After what looked like a lot of compilation, there was a message that read "loading kernel" followed by the error message: =========================================================================== kern_sysctl.o: undefined symbol '_hw_float' referenced from text segment *** Error code 1 Stop =========================================================================== Peeking at the source code using Warren Toomey's search program, I found two occurences of the symbol "hw_float": in sysctl.h and in npx.c where it is declared as "extern int" and "int" respectively. Unfortunatley, I don't know what to do about it. Any advice towards a solution will be deeply appreciated. Thanks. Dhiman. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 12:30:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA20581 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA20576 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA12147; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:30:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Marc van Kempen cc: Terry Lambert , hsu@freefall.freebsd.org (Jeffrey Hsu), gpalmer@freefall.freebsd.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netscape install of FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 15:07:41 +0200." <199604081307.PAA10398@nietzsche.bowtie.nl> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 12:30:02 -0700 Message-ID: <12145.828991802@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for the pointers - I'll check 'em out! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 13:15:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA23852 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bubba.tribe.com ([205.184.207.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA23847 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.tribe.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA06876; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:15:36 -0700 From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199604082015.NAA06876@bubba.tribe.com> Subject: Routing questions To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello hackers... This discussion about how to handle routing entries when interfaces go up and down is central to some stuff I'm working on, so naturally it interests me greatly... we're considering FreeBSD for use in a commercial product. I've been working with 2.1-R so far and I suppose some of this has been fixed, but anyway... By the way, I know how to get around the problems stated below... I'm more trying to ask some higher level questions regarding the overall "policy" of how to manage the routing table, etc, when interfaces go up and down and/or change numbers. * * * Example one... suppose you do this: $ ifconfig ed0 192.0.0.2 $ route add default 192.0.0.1 $ ifconfig ed1 193.0.0.2 $ ping -c 1 193.0.0.5 So far, so good.. at this point an ARP route to 193.0.0.5 has appeared in the routing table. $ ifconfig ed1 down delete $ ping -c 1 193.0.0.5 ping: sendto: Network is down This can't be right, because I happen to know that it's also possible to get to 193.0.0.5 via the default route. But the ARP entry for 193.0.0.5 via interface ed1 was not removed from the routing table when the interface went down... This looks like a pretty clear cut case to me... at the least, any such *automatically* generated routes should be *automatically* removed when the interface goes down. Static routes, I believe, should never be automatically removed. Now on to the next issue... * * * Suppose I want to have a dial-on-demand PPP connection. OK so I setup the routes, run PPP, and PPP opens the interface and waits for a packet to be sent. The interface is initially numbered 10.1.1.1 -> 11.1.1.1. Result: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire default 10.1.1.1 USc 0 0 tun0 10.1.1.1 127.0.0.1 UH 0 0 lo0 11.1.1.1 10.1.1.1 UH 1 0 tun0 Then a packet gets sent, so PPP opens dials the peer and negotiates the IP addresses. Oops, the server at the remote end wants us to use 12.1.1.1 -> 13.1.1.1 instead of what I had before. I have no choice. So I take my interface down ("ifconfig tun0 down delete"), and then bring it back up again, this time with the new IP addresses assigned by the server: 12.1.1.1 -> 13.1.1.1. Now a look at the routing table shows: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire default 10.1.1.1 USc 0 0 tun0 10.1.1.1 127.0.0.1 UH 0 0 lo0 13.1.1.1 12.1.1.1 UH 0 0 tun0 First point: this looks like it shouldn't work, since now nowhere in the system is there an interface with the number 10.1.1.1. But sending a packet to an anonymous IP address does cause it to get sent through the tun0 interface. Moreover, it is assigned the source address 10.1.1.1 instead of 12.1.1.1 like it should. Oops. Next point: since the route to 10.1.1.1 via 127.0.0.1 was automatically generated by the first ifconfig, shouldn't it too be automatically removed when the interface is taken down? It is no longer the number of any local interface, up or down. And hey! what happened to the analogous local route for 12.1.1.1? * * * So anyway, my *real* question is: is there a document that states precisely what the policy is on the interaction between interface numbering, routing, ARP'ing, etc? Because if there were it seems the above problems wouldn't have happened... If not, does anyone else feel like there ought to be one? I'd offer to maintain the latest version if people are interested. On the other hand, if this is overkill.. could someone explain it to me? Thanks, -Archie ________________________________________________________________________ Archie L. Cobbs, archie@tribe.com * Tribe Computer Works, Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 13:48:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA27041 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA27032 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.ki.net (root@freebsd.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by ki.net (8.7.4/8.7.4) with ESMTP id QAA20089; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by freebsd.ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA00220; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:49:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:49:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: DHIMAN@d0sb15.FNAL.Gov cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: problem in loading kernel In-Reply-To: <01I3AVG1AV0200009I@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Apr 1996 DHIMAN@d0sb15.FNAL.Gov wrote: > =========================================================================== > kern_sysctl.o: undefined symbol '_hw_float' referenced from text segment > > *** Error code 1 > > Stop > =========================================================================== > Check your MYKERNEL file and make sure you didn't remove: ----[ if so, insert this back in ]---- # # This device is mandatory. # # The Numeric Processing eXtension is used to either enable the # coprocessor or enable math emulation. If your machine doesn't contain # a math co-processor, you must *also* add the option "MATH_EMULATE". # THIS IS NOT AN OPTIONAL ENTRY, DO NOT REMOVE IT # device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" irq 13 vector npxintr ----[ CUT HERE ]---- Marc G. Fournier | POP Mail Telnet Acct DNS Hosting System | WWW Services Database Services | Knowledge, Administrator | | Information and scrappy@ki.net | WWW: http://www.ki.net | Communications, Inc From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 14:32:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA00462 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA00446 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA27236 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:32:00 -0600 Message-Id: <199604082132.PAA27236@rover.village.org> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Odd IDE problem???? Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 15:31:59 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a friend who has a Packard Bell machine. This has a IDE controller built into the motherboard. When I try to boot FreeBSD 2.1R GENERIC on this, I get the following error messages: wd0: interrupt timeout: wd0: status 58 error 0 wd0: interrupt timeout: wd0: status 50 error 1 Sometimes after the fsck, sometimes during, sometimes before. these were the same errors that happened about once a fortnight under 1.1.5.1R. He's upgrading in the hopes that the situation will get better, but it hasn't. We were able to load a 2.1R image onto the disk that is telling us this on a 386 box. So we tried to slow down the kernel by putting delays in after each out. This didn't help much. We tried running bad144 on the drive, only to get an error at different points each time (sometimes at 1000ish, others at 3000ish, 6000ish, 4000ish, etc). We tried a different disk drive, same problem. We tried disabling the built in IDE controller, same problem (both disks, that work fine with a 386DX40). We swapped out the CPU and the problem still persisted, either with the builtin IDE controller, or with the one on a multi-function card that we tried earlier. Oh, and the system was billed as green, but it isn't a laptop. The drives in question are a Conner CFS420A (master) and a Conner CP30204 (Slave). All combinations of master/slave result in the same behavior. Both these disks were able to survive an install on the above 386 (with a builtin IDE controller, so we can't move it to the 486). Smells like a hardware failure to me. I thought I'd double check here to make sure before I suggested new hardware. Has anybody seen this before? Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 15:00:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA02946 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA02868 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA03046; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:50:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604082150.OAA03046@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:50:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, louie@TransSys.COM, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604080223.LAA08178@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 8, 96 11:53:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > While not an X server application, you'll note that xntpd uses SIGIO > > > so that it might read and, most importanty, timestamp traffic arriving > > > on the network. This is critical to making NTP accurately synchronize > > > the clock. By using SIGIO, you can not have to worry nearly so much > > > about long-running sections of code and not being able to check for > > > pending input for a "long" time. The model of signal as 'interrupt' > > > works extremely well for this sort of appliation. Of course, this all > > > works Just Fine with sockets.. > > > > Signals are not events. What is wrong with select() that makes it > > unsuitable for your use? > > The point is that as soon as the process involved runs again, its signal > handler runs, effectively overriding any internal scheduling it is performing > using select(). > > Imagine that you are using select() to watch several stream connections, > and a large body of data appears on one. You bounce off and digest as > much of it as possible, in the name of efficiency. This may take some time, > and while you are doing it, you _won't_ be selecting on the other > streams. So if one of these other streams wants attention, you lose. We have already decided that the mouse is highest priority. If you attempt to invoke muliple Real Time requirements, I'm going to say you might as well stop thee, since you are already screwed. The difference between doing a select() and always processing mouse events first vs. processing mouse events as data becomes available (which it won't, on polled devices -- you have to poll them, by definition, obviously) is that to reasonably process the events using select(), the time interval between select() loop calls has to be small enough. Thomas' problem is that he selects true, then processes a whole bunch of client events, to the exclusion of mouse events. To "fix" this, he wants to (potentially) process the mouse events on every return from a system call to user space -- ie: in a signal handler as a result of the trampoline code invocation. He says in other correspondance that he can't use pthreads because it uses SIGALARM and he needs to run an alarm timer on top of all the other tasks he's performing. Now I do know that going to a full state automaton with event virtualization will add *some* overhead, at the same time solving the problem. The question is the ratio of processing overhead required to keep up with the mouse events, which Thomas sees as having a realtime requirement. One potential fix is virtualizing the mouse device instead of the events in the server. This reduces the polling overhead in the "no mouse event" case, and you can fix Thomas' mouse synchronization problem by flushing buffers on correct (full data packet) boundries. > However, if you can get a signal when it wants attention, you can spend > as long as you like being efficient with your bulk data, and still respond > in a timely fashion to events that require it. Signals, once again, are not events. You will only respond efficiently to the first event in any sequence of events, then you will be screwed, since the signal won't be immediately reasserted (signals delivery is blocked one deep for active handler code, which means that if you get two events while processing a first event, you have just desynchronized the command stream. You can't say "read only 3 characters at a time, but read as many 3 character sequences as you can manage" to the tty driver running the mouse. This goes back to my suggestion of two years ago for a mouse line discipline (originally suggested to defeat FIFO's on mouse devices). > select() is good for multiplexing, and efficient processing of bulk data. > select() is _bad_ for rapid response to data. This is only true if the action you take as a result of the select() coming true are long duration relative to the desired response loop time. This has more to do with you not setting a state and returning to recall select(), falling back into the state processing for an active client than it does with any real inability to process the data in the require time frame. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 15:01:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA03331 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA03318 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA12840; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Prev-Resent: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 15:00:41 -0700 Prev-Resent: "hackers@freebsd.org jhay@mikom.csir.co.za" Replied: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 14:13:26 -0700 Replied: "Howard Johnson " Received: from gw.tacsys.com (tacgate.iquest.com [199.170.120.140]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA11720 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hjohnson (hjohnson [199.172.88.10]) by gw.tacsys.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA20370 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:22:29 -0500 Received: by hjohnson with Microsoft Mail id <01BB253E.26EA25E0@hjohnson>; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:25:55 -0500 Message-ID: <01BB253E.26EA25E0@hjohnson> From: Howard Johnson To: "'jkh@time.cdrom.com'" Subject: BSD and IPX Support Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:25:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-To: hackers@freebsd.org Resent-cc: jhay@mikom.csir.co.za Resent-Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 15:00:41 -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <12838.829000841@time.cdrom.com> Resent-From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I noticed from the newsgroup that you are working on a version of = FreeBSD with IPX routing support. I am the senior engineer for software development and we are a Novell = Developer. If I could be of some assistance to the developers of the = IPX support please let me know. I am not sure how much time I would = have to devote to your efforts, but will be more than happy to try to = donate as much time as possible. Howard Johnson Director Development/Engineering TAC Systems From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 15:11:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA05390 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05346 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA03075; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:01:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604082201.PAA03075@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: roell@blah.a.isar.de (Thomas Roell) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:01:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, roell@blah.a.isar.de, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604081003.MAA00330@blah.a.isar.de> from "Thomas Roell" at Apr 8, 96 12:03:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think you don't get it. The problem is no matter what I do, select() > will be only called rarely, which means that a pipe would not help at > all. Increasing the buffer size by any means just moves the problem to > a different threshold, rather than solving it. It seems you have five options: 1) Use pthreads (SIGALARM problem, from private email) 2) Use another process 3) Change your code to use subautomatons and call select() less rarely. 4) Assume SIGIO works like an event instead of a signal (it doesn't). 5) Pray for a miracle. > Just another example. We are (aehm from the sales prespective will be) > supporting HW-MPEG playback. The MPEG chip is fed with data > asynchronously via periodical SIGALARM calls. It is easily possible > that depending upon your bitstream, that for a while the X-Server will > not get back to the select() at all. It should get back up anway by setting a state variable an intentionally dropping out to allow select() to be hit, if you are using select() as your primary event source. If not, refer to #4 above. > > Well. It seems that you really want a fix in another area of BSD, > > and that this fix is just a software fix to the fact that the other > > area is broken. 8-). > > What I want is being able to open multple /dev/ttyd* devices and get a > SIGIO if there is new input available. Say you can do this. How do you know which device generated the SIGIO -- or do you care? You can't assume you can reliably do many types of processing in a signal handler, other than to set a volatile flag that you later examine (like at the top of your select() loop). Signals are bogus. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 15:12:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA05656 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05650 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA03097; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:05:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604082205.PAA03097@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:05:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: louie@TransSys.COM, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, roell@blah.a.isar.de, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604081004.UAA25433@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Apr 8, 96 08:04:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >What a SIGIO based scheme does is interrupt whatever computation is > >going on, read the packet from the socket, timestamp it, and put it > >into a queue to be processed at some later time. Once you've noted > >the arrive time, the time criticality is gone, and you can process it > >at your leisure. > > This doesn't help much if there are `M' higher priority hoggish > interrupt handlers that run before the packet's interrupt handler, > and `N' other hog processes in the kernel or in user code that run > before the SIGIO is delivered. Exactly. You can not make Realtime guarantess on a non-Realtime system, and you can't fudge it to pretend you are doing this, and have it work reliably. It's entirely possible that your client command list is going to take a lot of crunching without kernel space calls, and since signals are only handled on call return, you're going to be screwed even with SIGIO. [ ... ] > >Of course, some of us are really weird this way. That how we end up > >with PLL models of the computer's clock in the kernel. > > Some of us wouldn't settle for an offset of 7 digits of nanoseconds :-). 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 15:17:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA06109 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA06096 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA03116; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:10:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604082210.PAA03116@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:10:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604081853.LAA02584@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Apr 8, 96 11:53:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Now if we had a mechanism like ast delivery in VMS you wouldn't be having > all this problems. 8) > > I often wonder why the kludgy asynch signal notification was not taken > a step further to implement full asynchronous i/o . > > Aside from that tty drivers would have to be split into two parts: > one to do the i/o at a high priority and the other half to process > the tty events. To avoid context switching as a result of anything other than involuntary timer-based preemption or vlountary call-based preemption, of course. Anything else results in you switching address spaces much to frequently, with the resulting high system overhead. Hence the joke: "An elephant is a mouse running VMS". If the events still queued to process quantum, that would be a different matter, but then what about user space reentry, specifically AST stacks when multiple AST's fire before a single AST can finish processing? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 15:23:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA06643 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA06606 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA03135; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:14:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604082214.PAA03135@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Check IP Version To: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:14:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: JimFleming@unety.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <96Apr8.095128pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> from "Bill Fenner" at Apr 8, 96 09:51:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Note that the IPv6 people decided that there were too many broken > implementations that don't check the IP version number, so they decided > to get a new ethertype to carry IPv6 frames. Political pansies. Better that broken implementations simply cease functioning and end up on the support doorsteps of their original parents. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 15:25:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA06899 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA06894 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <15548(5)>; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:24:34 PDT Received: by crevenia.parc.xerox.com id <177476>; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:24:23 -0700 From: Bill Fenner To: fenner@parc.xerox.com, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Check IP Version Cc: JimFleming@unety.net, hackers@freebsd.org Message-Id: <96Apr8.152423pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:24:10 PDT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Political pansies. Realists. "This IPv6 shit breaks my toaster, I will continue to use IPv4 since it works just fine" It'd be nice to say "Sorry, your IPv4 stack is broken", but it's always the newcomer that gets blamed for the troubles. "But it works without the new thing, so the new thing must be broken." Bill From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 15:34:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA07904 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wdl1.wdl.loral.com (wdl1.wdl.loral.com [137.249.32.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07899 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.sso.loral.com (miles.wdl.loral.com) by wdl1.wdl.loral.com (5.x/WDL-2.4-1.0) id AA09827; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:34:00 -0700 Received: from dragon.sso.loral.com by miles.sso.loral.com (4.1/SSO-SUN-2.04) id AA07698; Mon, 8 Apr 96 18:32:42 EDT Message-Id: <31699446.41C67EA6@miles.sso.loral.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 18:33:42 -0400 From: Rip Toren Rpt Organization: sso.loral.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: popd.1.gz == csh.1.gz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gents; I was looking for documentation on the pop mail daemon. The man page on the 2.1 installed system cd is really the csh shell man page. FYI if you want to get that corrected. Rip Toren rpt.miles.sso.loral.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 16:08:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA10570 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (root@usi-00-10.Naperville.unety.net [204.70.107.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA10565 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webster.unety.net (webster.unety.net [206.31.202.8]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA03070; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:02:53 -0500 Received: by webster.unety.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BB2575.F67FE9C0@webster.unety.net>; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:05:25 -0500 Message-ID: <01BB2575.F67FE9C0@webster.unety.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Bill Fenner'" , "terry@lambert.org" Cc: "hackers@freebsd.org" , "JimFleming@unety.net" Subject: RE: Check IP Version Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:05:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Monday, April 08, 1996 5:24 PM, Bill Fenner[SMTP:fenner@parc.xerox.com] wrote: @>Political pansies. @ @Realists. "This IPv6 shit breaks my toaster, I will continue to use IPv4 @since it works just fine" @ @It'd be nice to say "Sorry, your IPv4 stack is broken", but it's always @the newcomer that gets blamed for the troubles. "But it works without @the new thing, so the new thing must be broken." @ If people designed processors the way some people implement protocols we would have a situation where everything works until you try to add two numbers greater than some arbitrary limit. I am not sure that the solution in that case would be to switch to floating point because large integers are broken. Especially, when it is not that hard to have an implementation match the specification. Of course in C+@nIP (or IPv8 as some call it)...we only use the single high bit of the IP version field as a flag. The other three bits of the version field are borrowed for other purposes along with the Header Length and Checksum fields. This does not exactly follow the "spec" but it provides us with the flags we need to grow our way out of the suppsed IP address shortage. -- Jim Fleming UNETY Systems, Inc. Naperville, IL 60563 e-mail: JimFleming@unety.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 16:24:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA11691 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1.world.net (pdx1.world.net [192.243.32.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11674 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from merix.merix.com (merix.com [198.145.172.40]) by pdx1.world.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA24336 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:24:30 -0700 Received: from sandy.merix.com by merix.merix.com (4.1/1.1) id AA00139; Mon, 8 Apr 96 16:24:52 PDT Received: by sandy.merix.com (4.1/8.0) id AA21480; Mon, 8 Apr 96 16:22:21 PDT Date: Mon, 8 Apr 96 16:22:21 PDT Subject: AMD PCnet SCSI driver info needed To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Troy Curtiss Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A couple of weeks back, I heard somebody had a SCSI driver for the AMD combo ethernet/scsi controller. Searching through the archives revealed nothing, and I am quite badly in need of said driver. Anybody got any ideas of where I might find this thing? Thanks, -Troy -- /-----------------------------------------------------------\ | Troy Curtiss, HW/SW Engineer | Email: troyc@merix.com | | Merix Corporation, F8-208 | Phone: (503) 359-9300 x54500 | | Forest Grove, OR 97116 | Fax : (503) 359-1624 | \-----------------------------------------------------------/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 18:07:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA17604 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA17582 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with SMTP id CAA01312 ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:06:51 +0100 (BST) To: Rip Toren Rpt cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: popd.1.gz == csh.1.gz In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 18:33:42 EDT." <31699446.41C67EA6@miles.sso.loral.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 02:06:50 +0100 Message-ID: <1310.829012010@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Rip Toren Rpt wrote in message ID <31699446.41C67EA6@miles.sso.loral.com>: > I was looking for documentation on the pop mail daemon. The man > page on the 2.1 installed system cd is really the csh shell man > page. FYI if you want to get that corrected. Err. `pop' is a valid CSH command, and hence the page coming up when you did ``man pop''... You need to install additional s/w to get pop services, as FreeBSD doesn't come with a popd pre-installed. Try something like popper from ports. Gary From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 18:20:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA18553 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wdl1.wdl.loral.com (wdl1.wdl.loral.com [137.249.32.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA18512 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.sso.loral.com (miles.wdl.loral.com) by wdl1.wdl.loral.com (5.x/WDL-2.4-1.0) id AA15476; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:19:31 -0700 Received: by miles.sso.loral.com (4.1/SSO-SUN-2.04) id AA08274; Mon, 8 Apr 96 21:18:15 EDT Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:18:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Toren X-Sender: rpt@miles To: Gary Palmer Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: popd.1.gz == csh.1.gz In-Reply-To: <1310.829012010@palmer.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary, I realize pop (and popd) are csh commands. But going beyond just doing a man, the two files in /cdrom/usr/share/man/man1 are the exact same size, and 'cmp csh.1.gz popd.1.gz' is completly silent. in my book that probably means their contents are the same ??? ==================================================== Rip Toren | The bad news is that C++ is not an object-oriented | rpt@miles.sso.loral.com | programming language. .... The good news is that | | C++ supports object-oriented programming. | | C++ Programming & Fundamental Concepts | | by Anderson & Heinze | ==================================================== On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > Rip Toren Rpt wrote in message ID > <31699446.41C67EA6@miles.sso.loral.com>: > > > I was looking for documentation on the pop mail daemon. The man > > page on the 2.1 installed system cd is really the csh shell man > > page. FYI if you want to get that corrected. > > Err. `pop' is a valid CSH command, and hence the page coming up when > you did ``man pop''... You need to install additional s/w to get pop > services, as FreeBSD doesn't come with a popd pre-installed. Try > something like popper from ports. > > Gary > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 18:21:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA18687 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mpp.minn.net (root@p100.isc.net [206.144.132.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18682 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by mpp.minn.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA22207; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:20:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604090120.UAA22207@mpp.minn.net> Subject: Re: popd.1.gz == csh.1.gz To: rpt@miles.sso.loral.com (Rip Toren Rpt) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:20:42 -0500 (CDT) From: "Mike Pritchard" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: mpp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <31699446.41C67EA6@miles.sso.loral.com> from "Rip Toren Rpt" at Apr 8, 96 06:33:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Rip Toren Rpt wrote: > Gents; > I was looking for documentation on the pop mail daemon. The man page on the 2.1 installed system cd > is really the csh shell man page. FYI if you want to get that corrected. It is supposed to be that way. Popd is csh's command to pop a directory off its directory stack. You will need to install /usr/ports/mail/popper to get a pop daemon on your system and then look at its man page. -- Mike Pritchard mpp@freebsd.org "Go that way. Really fast. If something gets in your way, turn" From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 18:32:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA19353 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA19324 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with SMTP id CAA01498 ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:30:27 +0100 (BST) To: Richard Toren cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: popd.1.gz == csh.1.gz In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 21:18:14 EDT." Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 02:30:27 +0100 Message-ID: <1496.829013427@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard Toren wrote in message ID : > Gary, > I realize pop (and popd) are csh commands. But going beyond just doing > a man, the two files in /cdrom/usr/share/man/man1 are the exact same > size, and 'cmp csh.1.gz popd.1.gz' is completly silent. in my book that > probably means their contents are the same ??? Probably because they are linked together, so that they share the same diskspace for multiple directory entries? gary@palmer:/usr/share/man/man1> ls -ailgo csh.1.gz popd.1.gz popd.1.gz 57954 -r--r--r-- 16 bin bin - 23265 Mar 28 01:18 csh.1.gz 57954 -r--r--r-- 16 bin bin - 23265 Mar 28 01:18 popd.1.gz 57954 -r--r--r-- 16 bin bin - 23265 Mar 28 01:18 popd.1.gz ^^^^^ That first field is the i-node number. It's a bit difficult to explain if you don't understand the FFS layout. Basically, the directory entry just points to a data structure stored on the disk called an `inode', and it references it via a number (as the inode structures are stored in tables). The inode structure actually contains all the file meta-data, like size, ownership, etc, and also where on the disk to find the actual file contents. So multiple directory entries can reference the same inode, and hence the same file can appear multiple times on the disk whilst only occupying one set of disk space. (the `16' in the 3rd field in the abouve ls is actually the reference count, which is how many times that the same inode is pointed to by directory entries.) So having the same man page in multiple different files doesn't mean taking up an un-necessary ammount of disk space. Gary P.S. Sorry if the above is not clear. The actual technicalities of the FFS filesystem are a lot more difficult... From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 18:32:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA19507 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA19499 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA12317; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:26:14 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604090156.LAA12317@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: GNU binutils port To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:26:13 +0930 (CST) Cc: witr@rwwa.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604081719.LAA26093@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Apr 8, 96 11:19:47 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > > gcc builds out of the box for cross compiling on FreeSBD. Since the > ports are designed to have just a make done and it works, there is no > need to have gcc as a port. The reason being that you must do some > manual configuration before the cross compilation will work. I > thought thte whole point of doing a "port" was to eliminate that. Yup. Crossing with GCC is relatively easy, but it _does_ require some manual intervention. > Also, building a cross compiler can still be a bit of a black art. It > is best done by hand because there are a number of niggling little > logistical issues that trip up people in the process. > > I think that I must be missing something here... Hmm. Dunno 8) The masters of GCC crossing can be found at http://www.cygnus.com/; they have a nice reentrant C library (newlib) that's portable to a pile of architectures as well. > Warner -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 19:50:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA28765 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA28712 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA06191; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604090248.WAA06191@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whizzo.transsys.com: Host localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jim Fleming cc: "'Bill Fenner'" , "terry@lambert.org" , "hackers@freebsd.org" From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: Check IP Version In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 18:05:24 CDT." <01BB2575.F67FE9C0@webster.unety.net> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 22:48:06 -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Of course in C+@nIP (or IPv8 as some call it)...we only use the single high bit > of the IP version field as a flag. The other three bits of the version field are > borrowed for other purposes along with the Header Length and Checksum fields. > This does not exactly follow the "spec" but it provides us with the flags we > need to grow our way out of the suppsed IP address shortage. So I guess there can't be an IPv9..? Of course the real problem is not a shortage of addresses, it's a surplus of globally visible routes and their associated dyanmic behavior which default-less routers on the Internet have to deal with. There's oodles of space in the class-A space available. What IPv6 does is promote easy renumbering to allow for much higher degrees of route aggregation. louie From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 19:56:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA29262 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (root@usi-00-10.Naperville.unety.net [204.70.107.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA29257 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webster.unety.net (webster.unety.net [206.31.202.8]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA03344; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:51:12 -0500 Received: by webster.unety.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BB2595.DC1C0800@webster.unety.net>; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:53:45 -0500 Message-ID: <01BB2595.DC1C0800@webster.unety.net> From: Jim Fleming To: Jim Fleming , "'Louis A. Mamakos'" Cc: "'Bill Fenner'" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "terry@lambert.org" Subject: RE: Check IP Version Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:53:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Monday, April 08, 1996 9:48 PM, Louis A. Mamakos[SMTP:louie@TransSys.COM] wrote: @ @> Of course in C+@nIP (or IPv8 as some call it)...we only use the single high bit @> of the IP version field as a flag. The other three bits of the version field are @> borrowed for other purposes along with the Header Length and Checksum fields. @> This does not exactly follow the "spec" but it provides us with the flags we @> need to grow our way out of the suppsed IP address shortage. @ @So I guess there can't be an IPv9..? @ That is technically correct...see... http://comm.unety.net/US/IL/Naperville/Unir Of course...It depends on which Internet you are on...:-) @Of course the real problem is not a shortage of addresses, it's a @surplus of globally visible routes and their associated dyanmic @behavior which default-less routers on the Internet have to deal with. @There's oodles of space in the class-A space available. @ This is true...if people really beleived that IPv6 was going to happen then the current IP allocation policies would reflect the fact that a fix is just around the corner... @What IPv6 does is promote easy renumbering to allow for much higher @degrees of route aggregation. @ At some expense...there are always time, space and deployment trade-offs... -- Jim Fleming UNETY Systems, Inc. Naperville, IL 60563 e-mail: JimFleming@unety.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 20:16:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA00464 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (root@usi-00-10.Naperville.unety.net [204.70.107.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA00452 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webster.unety.net (webster.unety.net [206.31.202.8]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA03390; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:10:51 -0500 Received: by webster.unety.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BB2598.9ACCF280@webster.unety.net>; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:13:24 -0500 Message-ID: <01BB2598.9ACCF280@webster.unety.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Bill Fenner'" , "terry@lambert.org" Cc: "hackers@freebsd.org" , "JimFleming@unety.net" Subject: RE: Check IP Version Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:13:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Monday, April 08, 1996 5:24 PM, Bill Fenner[SMTP:fenner@parc.xerox.com] wrote: @>Political pansies. @ @Realists. "This IPv6 shit breaks my toaster, I will continue to use IPv4 @since it works just fine" @ I agree with this approach. The majority of people can live with the current "limitations" of a 32 bit address space especially if multiple address spaces are created and a migration path is created to utilize those spaces without impacting your "toaster"... Creating more addresses is much easier than charting a smooth transition to the usage of those spaces. @It'd be nice to say "Sorry, your IPv4 stack is broken", but it's always @the newcomer that gets blamed for the troubles. "But it works without @the new thing, so the new thing must be broken." @ @ Bill @ ...see http://comm.unety.net/US/IL/Naperville/Unir -- Jim Fleming UNETY Systems, Inc. Naperville, IL 60563 e-mail: JimFleming@unety.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 20:16:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA00541 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA00513 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA12518; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:16:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:33:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hard reading error Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:16:15 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: Richard Chang ReSent-To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG ReSent-Message-ID: Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings everyone, I am experiencing a problem with my FreeBSD partition with a hard reading error on my hard drive since someone accidentally kicked the machine while it was running. I had fixed the problem in DOS by repairing it with Norton Disk Doctor, is there a way to do it under FreeBSD? Thanks! Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 20:32:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA01146 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA01138 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.6.12/1.2) id UAA27041; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:32:01 -0700 From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199604090332.UAA27041@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: Re: popd.1.gz == csh.1.gz To: rpt@miles.sso.loral.com (Richard Toren) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:32:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) In-Reply-To: from "Richard Toren" at Apr 8, 96 09:18:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I realize pop (and popd) are csh commands. But going beyond just doing > a man, the two files in /cdrom/usr/share/man/man1 are the exact same > size, and 'cmp csh.1.gz popd.1.gz' is completly silent. in my book that > probably means their contents are the same ??? The POP daemon's man page will be /usr/local/man/man8/popper.8 -- note it's in a different part of the file hierarchy. (though you might also end up with /usr/local/man/man8/ipopd.8c if you go the pine route). The popd page you refer to is linked to various other csh related pages (i.e. csh.1). Hence the reason they are the same size -- they're the same *file*! From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 21:28:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA04944 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from melb.werple.net.au (melb.werple.net.au [203.9.190.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04938 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by melb.werple.net.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06617 for mira!freebsd.org!hackers; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:26:42 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199604090426.OAA06617@melb.werple.net.au> >Received: by cimaxp1.cimlogic.com.au; (5.65/1.1.8.2/10Sep95-0953AM) id AA09748; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:26:34 +1000 From: John Birrell Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: lambert.org!terry@melb.werple.net.au (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:26:32 +1000 (EST) Cc: blah.a.isar.de!roell@melb.werple.net.au, lambert.org!terry@melb.werple.net.au, blah.a.isar.de!roell@melb.werple.net.au, atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@melb.werple.net.au, freebsd.org!hackers@melb.werple.net.au, time.cdrom.com!jkh@melb.werple.net.au, xinside.com!roell@melb.werple.net.au In-Reply-To: <199604082201.PAA03075@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 8, 96 03:01:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I think you don't get it. The problem is no matter what I do, select() > > will be only called rarely, which means that a pipe would not help at > > all. Increasing the buffer size by any means just moves the problem to > > a different threshold, rather than solving it. > > It seems you have five options: > > 1) Use pthreads (SIGALARM problem, from private email) If you use threads, you should be able to solve the "SIGALARM problem" in a threaded manner, avoiding alarm(3) altogether. > Signals are bogus. And so is alarm. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > -- John Birrell CIMlogic Pty Ltd jb@cimlogic.com.au 119 Cecil Street Ph +61 3 9690 6900 South Melbourne Vic 3205 Fax +61 3 9690 6650 Australia Mob +61 18 353 137 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 22:26:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA08391 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA08383 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id WAA03084 ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:26:06 -0700 Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA13764; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:05:57 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604090535.PAA13764@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: popd.1.gz == csh.1.gz To: rpt@miles.sso.loral.com (Richard Toren) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:05:56 +0930 (CST) Cc: gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Richard Toren" at Apr 8, 96 09:18:14 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard Toren stands accused of saying: > > Gary, > I realize pop (and popd) are csh commands. But going beyond just doing > a man, the two files in /cdrom/usr/share/man/man1 are the exact same > size, and 'cmp csh.1.gz popd.1.gz' is completly silent. in my book that > probably means their contents are the same ??? That's because popd.1.gz is a link to csh.1.gz. Not only are their contents the same, they _are_the_same_file_. The FreeBSD POP server daemon is called "popper". It is _not_ part of the base system, it's in /usr/ports/mail/popper. The FreeBSD POP client is called "popclient". It is also not part of the base system, it's in /usr/ports/mail/popclient. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 22:30:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA09131 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA09124 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA05609; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:27:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199604090527.WAA05609@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 15:10:32 PDT." <199604082210.PAA03116@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 22:27:52 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert said: > If the events still queued to process quantum, that would be a > different matter, but then what about user space reentry, specifically > AST stacks when multiple AST's fire before a single AST can finish > processing? > > Yeah, what about it ?? Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 8 23:36:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA14558 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.net.hk (john@gateway.hk.linkage.net [202.76.7.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA14553 Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from john@localhost) by gateway.net.hk (8.7.4/8.6.12) id OAA14486; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:27:46 +0800 (HKT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:27:45 +0800 (HKT) From: John Beukema To: Joerg Wunsch cc: Nikos Landrou , hackers@FreeBSD.org, info@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Please help me with my problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604080048.CAA01620@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You can have this behavior if the mouse is not configured properly. Run startx > filename and examine filename to see what went wrong. jbeukema On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Nikos Landrou wrote: > > > i have the Diamond Stealth S3 Trio64V+ DRAM Video 2001. > > Every time i start the S3 server the screen goes blank and my > > computer hangs.. > > > Please try to answer my mail as soon as possible... > > Lack of response is not ignorance, but often lack of sufficient > knowledge. I'm afraid that nobody is able to reproduce your problem, > and nobody knows offhand what it might be. :-( > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 00:49:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA18652 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wulan.binus.ac.id ([202.46.248.99]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA18603 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl007 ([192.6.1.96]) by wulan.binus.ac.id (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA24822 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:50:38 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:50:38 GMT Message-Id: <199604091450.OAA24822@wulan.binus.ac.id> X-Sender: bncard@binus.ac.id (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: Citra Hanilia Subject: subscribe hackers Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi ! I want more information About Develop FreeBSD Thanks. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 02:22:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA26124 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA26112 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA15599; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:21:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Citra Hanilia cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: subscribe hackers In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Apr 1996 14:50:38 GMT." <199604091450.OAA24822@wulan.binus.ac.id> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 02:21:14 -0700 Message-ID: <15597.829041674@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Please see http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/submitters.html Thanks! Jordan > > Hi ! > I want more information > About Develop FreeBSD > > Thanks. > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 04:54:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA06252 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntserv.webleicester.co.uk ([206.249.75.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA06244 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.249.75.17] by ntserv.webleicester.co.uk (NTMail 3.01.00) id fa002059; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:53:59 +0000 Received: from LANSYS/SpoolDir by lansys.webleicester.co.uk (Mercury 1.21); 9 Apr 96 11:54:35 +0000 Received: from SpoolDir by LANSYS (Mercury 1.21); 9 Apr 96 11:54:21 +0000 From: "Phil Taylor" Organization: Lan Systems To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:54:19 GMT Subject: Lan Research Lightning PCI Ethernet Reply-to: phil@lansys.webleicester.co.uk Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <145B5934721@lansys.webleicester.co.uk> X-Info: The Web Factory (Leicester) Elecctronic Mail System Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any info on this card as it is not detected under FBSD running in it's native mode, it will run in Ne2000/3Com/WD emulation mode but I wondered if I could get it going in 'REAL' mode It contains what they call a Lan Soft ASIC which seems to be of their own manufacture (No label to peel off !!!) Any info much appreciated. Cheers Phil. /* Phil Taylor phil@webleicester.co.uk LAN Systems - LAN/WAN Specialists */ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 04:54:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA06265 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from edna.bus.net (edna.bus.net [207.41.24.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA06251 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by edna.bus.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA00283; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:53:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:53:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chuck O'Donnell" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: jove port Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone used the jove 4.16 editor available in the ports collection? I use it but I think there is a problem in the FreeBSD port. When running an interactive shell in a buffer (ESC-x, shell), pressing the return key repeats the command on the prompt line anywhere from 50 to 500 times. This is a sample of an i-shell session with one command entered: shell session: ----------------------------------- edna$ echo one line one line edna$ one line edna$ one line edna$ one line . . /* 60 +/- lines deleted */ . . edna$ one line edna$ one line edna$ one line edna$ exit exit [Process i-shell: Done] ----------------------------------- I tried recompiling from the sources but there was no improvement, so I have been working with a fellow from the jove development group (jovehacks@cs.toronto.edu). ktrace shows jove write the command, but it returns to jove that 0 bytes were written, so jove tries to write it again and again. I can send a kdump to anyone who would like to look at it. Below is info about version/machine/compile options. Any thoughts? Regards, Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------------ OS: FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE Computer: Intel pentium jove version: 4.16 Compiler: GNU gcc v2.6.3 Options: OPTFLAGS = -O DEPENDFLAG = -M LIBS = -ltermcap LDFLAGS = SYSDEFS=-DBSDPOSIX CFLAGS = $(OPTFLAGS) $(SYSDEFS) LDCC = $(CC) LOCALCC = $(CC) LOCALCFLAGS = $(CFLAGS) LOCALLDFLAGS = $(LDFLAGS) related jove vars: set shell /bin/bash set shell-flags -c Compilation: make test jjove (didn't notice problem at that point), make install I've tried setting `shell' to /bin/csh and /bin/sh also, but had the same problem. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 05:52:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA09556 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 05:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ter2.fl.net.au (root@ter2.fl.net.au [203.63.198.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA09515 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 05:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cafu.fl.net.au (adf@cafu.fl.net.au [203.63.198.10]) by ter2.fl.net.au (2.0/adf) with SMTP id WAA14564 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:55:33 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:52:41 +0000 () From: Andrew Foster To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: DVORAK keyboard drivers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Probably the wrong list, but it might bring up some interesting discussion ;-) Is there a FreeBSD DVORAK keyboard driver to make your QWERTY keyboard work as a standard DVORAK one ? Thanks, Andrew ---------- Andrew Foster adf@fl.net.au From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 06:28:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA11051 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA11046 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA04635; Tue, 9 Apr 96 09:27:47 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id JAA28815; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:27:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199604111327.JAA28815@exalt.x.org> To: adf@fl.net.au Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Apr 1996 22:52:41 EST. Organization: X Consortium Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:27:41 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Is there a FreeBSD DVORAK keyboard driver to make your QWERTY keyboard work > as a standard DVORAK one ? > Who really uses the console any more? :-) There's at least three ways to get Dvorak layout using X. 1) xmodmap. I bet there's a FAQ somewhere with a Dvorak .modmap 2) Toolkit translations. I've appended an xterm sample to the end. Use F9 and F10 to toggle between Dvorak and normal. 3) Use xkb. Get X11R6.1 (which is XFree86 3.1.2C) or XFree86 3.1.2D beta. Get the whole thing! Make sure you use the new XF86Config file and in the keyboard section change the line: XkbSymbols "symbols/us(pc101)" to XkbSymbols "symbols/us(pc101)+dvorak" -- Kaleb KEITHLEY =========== xterm Dvorak translations, add to your .Xdefaults ============ XTerm*VT100.Translations: #override F9: keymap(Dvorak) \n\ F10: keymap(None) XTerm*DvorakKeymap.translations: #override \ :Ctrla: string(0x01) \n\ :Ctrlb: string(0x02) \n\ :Ctrlc: string(0x03) \n\ :Ctrld: string(0x04) \n\ :Ctrle: string(0x05) \n\ :Ctrlf: string(0x06) \n\ :Ctrlg: string(0x07) \n\ :Ctrlh: string(0x08) \n\ :Ctrli: string(0x09) \n\ :Ctrlj: string(0x0a) \n\ :Ctrlk: string(0x0b) \n\ :Ctrll: string(0x0c) \n\ :Ctrlm: string(0x0d) \n\ :Ctrln: string(0x0e) \n\ :Ctrlo: string(0x0f) \n\ :Ctrlp: string(0x10) \n\ :Ctrlq: string(0x11) \n\ :Ctrlr: string(0x12) \n\ :Ctrls: string(0x13) \n\ :Ctrlt: string(0x14) \n\ :Ctrlu: string(0x15) \n\ :Ctrlv: string(0x16) \n\ :Ctrlw: string(0x17) \n\ :Ctrlx: string(0x18) \n\ :Ctrly: string(0x19) \n\ :Ctrlz: string(0x1a) \n\ :a: string(a) \n\ :b: string(x) \n\ :c: string(j) \n\ :d: string(e) \n\ :e: string(".") \n\ :f: string(u) \n\ :g: string(i) \n\ :h: string(d) \n\ :i: string(c) \n\ :j: string(h) \n\ :k: string(t) \n\ :l: string(n) \n\ :m: string(m) \n\ :n: string(b) \n\ :o: string(r) \n\ :p: string(l) \n\ :q: string("'") \n\ :r: string(p) \n\ :s: string(o) \n\ :t: string(y) \n\ :u: string(g) \n\ :v: string(k) \n\ :w: string(",") \n\ :x: string(q) \n\ :y: string(f) \n\ :z: string(";") \n\ :minus: string("\\\\") \n\ :semicolon: string(s) \n\ :apostrophe: string("-") \n\ :comma: string(w) \n\ :period: string(v) \n\ :slash: string(z) \n\ :quotedbl: string("_") \n\ :underscore: string("|") \n\ :bracketleft: string("/") \n\ :braceleft: string("?") \n\ :backslash: string("[") \n\ :bar: string("{") \n\ :A: string(A) \n\ :B: string(X) \n\ :C: string(J) \n\ :D: string(E) \n\ :E: string(">") \n\ :F: string(U) \n\ :G: string(I) \n\ :H: string(D) \n\ :I: string(C) \n\ :J: string(H) \n\ :K: string(T) \n\ :L: string(N) \n\ :M: string(M) \n\ :N: string(B) \n\ :O: string(R) \n\ :P: string(L) \n\ :Q: string(0x22) \n\ :R: string(P) \n\ :S: string(O) \n\ :T: string(Y) \n\ :U: string(G) \n\ :V: string(K) \n\ :W: string("<") \n\ :X: string(Q) \n\ :Y: string(F) \n\ :Z: string(":") \n\ :less: string(W) \n\ :greater: string(V) \n\ :question: string(Z) \n\ :colon: string(S) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 06:42:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA11651 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nevis.oss.uswest.net (nevis.oss.uswest.net [204.147.85.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA11646 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from greg@localhost) by nevis.oss.uswest.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA19727 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:41:59 -0500 From: "Greg Rowe" Message-Id: <9604090841.ZM19725@nevis.oss.uswest.net> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:41:58 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: EISA 2740 & SNAP Release Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just recieved my SNAP CD from WC and was trying to upgrade an older 486 with an EISA Adaptec 2740. The boot floppy recognizes the controller and the drives, but when it tries to access the drives near the end of the boot process, it dies with a looping error: panic: ahc0: brkadrint, Illegal Host Access at seqaddr = 0x0 I managed to actually get a SNAP install done using a 2.1 boot floppy to determine if it's a problem with the SNAP floppy, but I get the same errors. (The machine was running both 2.05 & 2.1 with no problems) Has there been any changes in the code that probes this controller ? Thanks, Greg -- Greg Rowe | U S West - Interact Services | INTERNET greg@uswest.net 111 Washington Ave. South | Fax: (612) 672-8537 Minneapolis, MN USA 55401 | Voice: (612) 672-8535 Never trust an operating system you don't have source for.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 06:47:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA11781 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA11774 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA02475; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:43:25 +0200 Message-Id: <199604091343.PAA02475@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: adf@cafu.fl.net.au (Andrew Foster) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:43:25 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Foster" at Apr 9, 96 10:52:41 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Andrew Foster who wrote: > > Hi, > > Probably the wrong list, but it might bring up some interesting discussion > ;-) > > Is there a FreeBSD DVORAK keyboard driver to make your QWERTY keyboard work > as a standard DVORAK one ? You don't need another driver, just load a new keyboard mapping (if you are using the default consoledriver syscons) like this: kbdcontrol -l us.dvorak Its as easy as that... X should inherit this from the console driver too... I think the dvorak map was added after 2.1, so you need either to run -current or get the us.dvorak file from a current system. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 07:05:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA12723 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA12710 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I3CD4ZH4WG000KMP@mail.rwth-aachen.de> for freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org; Tue, 09 Apr 1996 15:49:36 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA06514 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Tue, 09 Apr 1996 15:55:57 +0200 Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 15:55:57 +0200 From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: yp/nis Q: To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Message-id: <199604091355.PAA06514@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm trying to get NIS/YP working under -current. What am I missing?: (server) toots# cd /var/yp toots# make NIS Map update started on Tue Apr 9 15:51:52 MET DST 1996 for domain iphy Updating master.passwd.byname... Updating master.passwd.byuid... Creating new /var/yp/passwd file from /var/yp/master.passwd... Updating passwd.byname... Updating passwd.byuid... Updating netid.byname... Updating group.byname... Updating group.bygid... make: don't know how to make /var/yp/ypservers. Stop *** Error code 2 Stop. --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 07:42:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA15660 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (maccs.dcss.McMaster.CA [130.113.68.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA15648 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from church.dcss.mcmaster.ca by maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #5) id m0u6ecW-0005wOC; Tue, 9 Apr 96 10:42 EDT Received: by church.dcss.mcmaster.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA03295; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:42:10 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:42:10 -0400 From: dsantry@maccs.dcss.McMaster.CA (Douglas Santry) Message-Id: <199604091442.KAA03295@church.dcss.mcmaster.ca> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: freebsd threads Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't know who to send this to so I thought the general hackers address would be a start. I am currently implementing user threads that are managed by the kernel so multithreading is possible. I am *not* multithreading the kernel. It will still only allow one active task in the kernel at a time. I am using syscalls 172-175 and 177-180. If this is a problem please let me know. I am checking with you folks cuz I thought you may be interested in including this code in your general distribution one day. Are these syscalls ok or should I move them? PS I can't seem to find the code for libc. I can only find man pages for libc under /usr/src/lib/libc/sys which I find kinda strange. Where should I be looking? If anybody is interested in what I'm doing send me a note and I'll give more details. Doug Santry dsantry@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca Does anybody know a person who know the virtual memory layout really well? I could use some info. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 07:54:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA16496 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA16482 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA06502; Tue, 9 Apr 96 10:54:11 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id KAA29763; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:54:10 -0400 Message-Id: <199604111454.KAA29763@exalt.x.org> To: sos@FreeBSD.org Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Apr 1996 15:43:25 EST. <199604091343.PAA02475@ra.dkuug.dk> Organization: X Consortium Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:54:10 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > kbdcontrol -l us.dvorak > > Its as easy as that... > X should inherit this from the console driver too... > If kbdcontrol gave us an easy way to tell what the keymap actually is, as opposed to a bunch of raw data. I don't want to have to try to parse a keymap to tell what it is. And, as I said previously, nobody really uses the console, right? :-) X has it's own way to load specific keymaps. I'm not opposed to having the X server DTRT based on what the console driver has loaded, e.g. see the X server sources for the Xdec and Xsun servers in R6.1, but we need better support from the OS to do it. (BTW, in 2.1.0R: %kbdcontrol -d > /tmp/keymap getting keymap: Inappropriate ioctl for device Any thoughts?) -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 08:02:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA16812 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA16800 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA02804; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:01:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:01:35 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu To: Andrew Foster cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Andrew Foster wrote: > Is there a FreeBSD DVORAK keyboard driver to make your QWERTY keyboard work > as a standard DVORAK one ? Yes, if you use the syscons console (default). It isn't in 2.1, but you should be able to grab it from current and stick it in. You can find it at: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD//FreeBSD-current/src/share/syscons/keymaps Just put them in /usr/share/syscons/keymaps and invoke the appropriate command (kbdcontrol). If you use X, there is also xdvorak. (of course, using dvorak for the system console enhances security :) -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 09:21:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA22590 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22584 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA21926; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:20:24 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:20 EDT Received: from lakes (lakes [192.96.3.39]) by ponds.UUCP (8.6.12/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA23812; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:39:42 -0400 Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes (8.6.12/8.6.9) id HAA04680; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:37:45 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:37:45 -0400 From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199604091137.HAA04680@lakes> To: umiacs.umd.edu!smpatel@dg-rtp.dg.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: pnpinfo (was Re: sound question) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sujal - > > > So, to get my sound card working; I have a little DOS floppy I > > boot from, that runs the sound card's setup program. Then, I do > > a warm boot (CNTL-ALT-DEL) to boot up FreeBSD. At that point, > > FreeBSD recognizes the sound card as a "normal" sound-blaster Pro, and > > everything works fine. > > > > I think some people are working on getting Plug-and-Play into > > FreeBSD... is that true? > > Yes... There is work being done, but I'm holding out until I can get > everything working the way Plug-and-Play was intended (i.e. fully > automatic). > > In the meantime, some VERY preliminary (working) support can be found on > ftp://xi.dorm.umd.edu/pub/pnp/* These patches are for -current, though > they should be easily adaptable to 2.1R. > > > Sujal > I grabbed your patches, read the README (by the way, you may want to put your e-mail address at the bottom of that README), and jumped up-and-down with joy to see that this was coming together. So, I untarr'd pnpinfo.tar.gz and ran pnpinfo. Here's what I got: lakes# ./pnpinfo Checking for Plug-n-Play devices... No Plug-n-Play devices were found lakes# although, I have a MediaVision Plug-N-Play sound card in the machine. (it's a non-PnP bios, 486-66 VLB machine, FreeBSD 2.1-R) Where should I start looking to see why this isn't recognized? The documentation that comes with the card is quite miserable (although, it does use an OPTi chip set - I did wrangle some documentation from them, but it's not exactly readable...) - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 09:23:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA22701 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DeepCore.dk (aalb12.pip.dknet.dk [194.192.0.172]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22694 Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by DeepCore.dk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA01271; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:33:27 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199604091533.RAA01271@DeepCore.dk> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:33:27 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604111454.KAA29763@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Apr 11, 96 10:54:10 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Kaleb S. KEITHLEY who wrote: > > > kbdcontrol -l us.dvorak > > > > Its as easy as that... > > X should inherit this from the console driver too... > > > > If kbdcontrol gave us an easy way to tell what the keymap actually is, > as opposed to a bunch of raw data. I don't want to have to try to parse > a keymap to tell what it is. I don't get the question here... You load a keyboard map, so you should know what it is :) If you see it from X and want to know the current map, just look into the XFree sources, it does get it (I wrote the code years ago, so I should know :) ) > And, as I said previously, nobody really uses the console, right? :-) HA, I'll bet ALOT that there is a significant number of our users that uses the console only ! > X has it's own way to load specific keymaps. I'm not opposed to having > the X server DTRT based on what the console driver has loaded, e.g. see > the X server sources for the Xdec and Xsun servers in R6.1, but we need > better support from the OS to do it. It's allready there, see above.... > (BTW, in 2.1.0R: > > %kbdcontrol -d > /tmp/keymap > getting keymap: Inappropriate ioctl for device > > Any thoughts?) Yeah, you didn't do this from a vty.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 09:28:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA23067 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xi.dorm.umd.edu (root@xi.dorm.umd.edu [129.2.152.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23062 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (smpatel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xi.dorm.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA00676; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:28:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Sujal Patel X-Sender: smpatel@xi.dorm.umd.edu Reply-To: Sujal Patel To: Thomas David Rivers cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: pnpinfo (was Re: sound question) In-Reply-To: <199604091137.HAA04680@lakes> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Thomas David Rivers wrote: > you may want to put your e-mail address at the bottom of that README), Thanks.. I just added it.. I cut pasted that README out of a piece of E-mail and kinda forgot about that :-) > although, I have a MediaVision Plug-N-Play sound card in the machine. > (it's a non-PnP bios, 486-66 VLB machine, FreeBSD 2.1-R) Ok... Well the detection code has been pretty solid so far (with all of the cards I've tested). Verify these things first: 1: You are running 'pnpinfo' as root. 2: Your MediaVision card has it's PnP "Logic" enabled. Maybe there is a configuration option in the software setup (or a jumper?) 3: Your computer really doesn't have a PnP Bios (This may not matter). If all of this stuff is good, recompile 'pnpinfo' with -DDEBUG and mail me the output privately and we'll figure this out. Sujal From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 10:24:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA26724 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26715 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA05209; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:15:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604091715.KAA05209@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:15:33 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604090527.WAA05609@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Apr 8, 96 10:27:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If the events still queued to process quantum, that would be a > > different matter, but then what about user space reentry, specifically > > AST stacks when multiple AST's fire before a single AST can finish > > processing? > > Yeah, what about it ?? You will need a sperate stack space for each firing AST. Just like you need a seperate signal stack. But since AST's *are* events, they do not have to fire in order; they may interrupt each other. Unlike signals. Adding AST's would not be as easy as, for instance, replacing the environment space with logical name support. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 11:38:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA01869 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01862 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA05576; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:30:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604091830.LAA05576@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Check IP Version To: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:30:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: fenner@parc.xerox.com, terry@lambert.org, JimFleming@unety.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <96Apr8.152423pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> from "Bill Fenner" at Apr 8, 96 03:24:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Political pansies. > > Realists. "This IPv6 shit breaks my toaster, I will continue to use IPv4 > since it works just fine" > > It'd be nice to say "Sorry, your IPv4 stack is broken", but it's always > the newcomer that gets blamed for the troubles. "But it works without > the new thing, so the new thing must be broken." This is exactly opposite of the rationale that has FreeBSD enabling RFC 1323 and RFC 1644 by default instead of leaving them disabled by default. You are suggesting we should join Microsoft and Intel to put the "backwards" in "backwards compatability". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 11:45:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA02539 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sisyphos (Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.212.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA02533 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by Sisyphos id AA05369 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:44:20 +0200 Message-Id: <199604091844.AA05369@Sisyphos> From: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:44:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: Kees Jan Koster "HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI)." (Apr 1, 11:03) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(2) 7/9/95) To: Kees Jan Koster Subject: Re: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI). Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers Mailing list) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 1, 11:03, Kees Jan Koster wrote: } Subject: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI). } Hoi Hackers, } } I was told that cpu usage of SCSI disks was lower than that of IDE disks. Yes, in most situations it definitely is, especially given the lack of EIDE DMA support in FreeBSD (not that I'd need it :) } However: [ indentation and unimportant lines removed ... ] LikeEver (amd486DX4-100, ncr pci scsi controller) -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Directory MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU Seagate 20 1299 81.1 1263 15.5 653 18.2 1778 94.9 1982 41.8 47.7 5.7 Maxtor 20 750 41.9 740 8.5 405 9.7 764 34.7 770 8.8 32.0 3.9 phobos (pentium 90, on-board IDE controller) Directory MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU Quantum 40 1215 41.7 1818 18.8 811 11.5 1376 41.0 1990 16.0 39.9 3.9 } How come the seagate uses twice as much cpu as the quantum? How comes the 486 needs twice as much time as a P90 to complete just about any task ? ;-) Honestly: I'm not sure what you are doing in these tests, since the numbers are low for the NCR SCSI as well as the IDE case. I'd guess that both the Seagate and the Maxtor are old drives (or they'd read more than 2MB/s in the "Block Input" test). How about a different test: # time dd if=/dev/rsd0c of=/dev/null bs=64k count=1000 1000+0 records in 1000+0 records out 65536000 bytes transferred in 9 secs (7281777 bytes/sec) 9.32 real 0.02 user 0.24 sys (ASUS SP3G with NCR and Quantum Atlas 2GB.) What are your numbers for both the NCR and the EIDE system ? These numbers indicate less than 3% CPU is required to read 7MB/s (though there are cycles that aren't accounted to the "dd" process and which aren't easily measured). I'd guess that less than 1% CPU is spent on doing the actual transfer on you amd486 system. The remaining CPU time is consumed by file system overhead. Regards, STefan -- Stefan Esser, Zentrum fuer Paralleles Rechnen Tel: +49 221 4706021 Universitaet zu Koeln, Weyertal 80, 50931 Koeln FAX: +49 221 4705160 ============================================================================== http://www.zpr.uni-koeln.de/~se From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 11:50:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA02954 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA02947 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA05594; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:38:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604091838.LAA05594@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: freebsd threads To: dsantry@maccs.dcss.McMaster.CA (Douglas Santry) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:38:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604091442.KAA03295@church.dcss.mcmaster.ca> from "Douglas Santry" at Apr 9, 96 10:42:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't know who to send this to so I thought the general hackers address > would be a start. I am currently implementing user threads that are managed > by the kernel so multithreading is possible. I am *not* multithreading the > kernel. It will still only allow one active task in the kernel at a time. I > am using syscalls 172-175 and 177-180. If this is a problem please let > me know. I am checking with you folks cuz I thought you may be interested > in including this code in your general distribution one day. Are these > syscalls ok or should I move them? > > PS I can't seem to find the code for libc. I can only find man pages for > libc under /usr/src/lib/libc/sys which I find kinda strange. Where should > I be looking? > > If anybody is interested in what I'm doing send me a note and I'll give more > details. How does this compare to the existing pthreads implementation? If you are trying to turn "blocking system call" into "async system call plus context switch" (what Sun did with LWP in SunOS), may I suggest an alternate approach? Add a field to the sysent structure for each system call to allow you to set a flag for "asyncable", "already async", and "non-asyncable". Then use a different call gate but the same system call code and handle the change in the call gate and sleep/tsleep code. This approach will take a hell of alot less work on your part (you will still need to handle event context and you will probably still need a single multiplex entry call for aiowait/aiocancel, though). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 12:01:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA03945 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sisyphos (Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.212.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03919 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by Sisyphos id AA05584 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org); Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:00:11 +0200 Message-Id: <199604091900.AA05584@Sisyphos> From: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:00:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: Bruce Evans "Re: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI)." (Apr 2, 21:47) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(2) 7/9/95) To: Bruce Evans Subject: Re: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI). Cc: dutchman@spase.nl, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 2, 21:47, Bruce Evans wrote: } I would prefer lower latency to lower overhead in most cases. IDE disks } have natural advantages in this area (no complicated SCSI protocol to } interpreted by the slow i/o processor on the controller). Well, wasn't there some discussion about this in the mail lists some time ago ? Let's see, what I find in my mail archive ... % On Oct 8, 7:15, Bruce Evans wrote: % } That's not saying much. An IDE controller has a much lower command % } overhead than the buslogic: % } Cheap IDE on 486DX/33 ISA SAMSUNG SHD-3212A (slow disk): % } output for disklatency /dev/rwd0: % } Command overhead is 573 usec (time_4096 = 2830, time_8192 = 5087) % } transfer speed is 1.81489e+06 bytes/sec % } % } A high command overhead causes slow file system operations for % } everything except large i/o's. % } % } What are the command overheads of other popular controllers? % % NCR 53c810 (driven by a 486DX2/66): % % Command overhead is 751 usec (time_4096 = 1216, time_8192 = 1682) % transfer speed is 8.79954e+06 bytes/sec % IDE: 512/1815890 s + 573 us = 855 us % NCR: 512/8799540 s + 751 us = 809 us I've got to admit, that this only proves that a (cheap) IDE drive is slower than a reasonable SCSI drive. What I'd really like to see is "disklatency" output obtained on a fast EIDE system. Perhaps it is time to repost the sources ? Regards, STefan -- Stefan Esser, Zentrum fuer Paralleles Rechnen Tel: +49 221 4706021 Universitaet zu Koeln, Weyertal 80, 50931 Koeln FAX: +49 221 4705160 ============================================================================== http://www.zpr.uni-koeln.de/~se From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 12:04:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA04254 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04104 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA25752; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:02:18 +0200 From: John Hay Message-Id: <199604091902.VAA25752@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: IPX routing? To: mmead@Glock.COM (matthew c. mead) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:02:17 +0200 (SAT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604050403.XAA03532@neon.Glock.COM> from "matthew c. mead" at Apr 4, 96 11:03:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Has anyone done any IPX routing on FreeBSD? > We are using it here at the company I work for. It is mostly the stuff in FreeBSD-current. The main problem with it at the moment is the handling of type 20 (Netbios) packets. I am currently testing it here and will commit it when I am happy with that. John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@csir.co.za From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 12:55:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA07762 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07733 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA02328; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:53:01 -0700 Message-Id: <199604092053.NAA02328@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Apr 1996 10:15:33 PDT." <199604091715.KAA05209@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 13:53:01 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I guess is easier to fire off a process to handle each separate asynch io stream 8) Cheers, Amancio >>> Terry Lambert said: > > > If the events still queued to process quantum, that would be a > > > different matter, but then what about user space reentry, specifically > > > AST stacks when multiple AST's fire before a single AST can finish > > > processing? > > > > Yeah, what about it ?? > > You will need a sperate stack space for each firing AST. Just like > you need a seperate signal stack. > > But since AST's *are* events, they do not have to fire in order; they > may interrupt each other. Unlike signals. > > Adding AST's would not be as easy as, for instance, replacing the > environment space with logical name support. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 13:27:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA10177 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntserv.webleicester.co.uk ([206.249.75.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10165 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.249.75.17] by ntserv.webleicester.co.uk (NTMail 3.01.00) id ya002104; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:27:07 +0000 Received: from LANSYS/SpoolDir by lansys.webleicester.co.uk (Mercury 1.21); 9 Apr 96 21:27:38 +0000 Received: from SpoolDir by LANSYS (Mercury 1.21); 9 Apr 96 21:27:25 +0000 From: "Phil Taylor" Organization: Lan Systems To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:27:23 GMT Subject: 0323SNAP Broken support for ATI 1500 cards in lnc ? Reply-to: phil@lansys.webleicester.co.uk Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <14E4350390B@lansys.webleicester.co.uk> X-Info: The Web Factory (Leicester) Elecctronic Mail System Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am trying to install the 960323 SNAP onto a machine with an Allied Telesyn AT1500 card which worked perfectly with the lnc driver under 2.1 release but although it is detected in the snap I can't talk it. In sysinstall I get lnc0: initialisation failed. I know that this config worked fine under 2.1R and yes I have set it up with -c so what gives ? Has there been much work on the lnc driver post 2.1R ????? I can't install the latest and greatest until I get it working and I can't even boot 2.1R and ftp it to my local machine as I decided to take this opportunity to add another disk (a lot easier at sysinstall time) and re-arrange my filesystems, so I newfs'd everything :-( never mind..... Any ideas ???? Cheers Phil. /* Phil Taylor phil@webleicester.co.uk LAN Systems - LAN/WAN Specialists */ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 13:32:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA10835 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crdems.ge.com (root@crdems.GE.COM [192.35.44.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10830 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crissy.gemis.ge.com by crdems.ge.com (5.65/GE 1.77) id AA19595; Tue, 9 Apr 96 15:47:40 -0400 Received: from salem.ge.com (carsdb.salem.ge.com [3.29.7.15]) by crissy.gemis.ge.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA25845 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:47:26 -0400 Received: from combs.salem.ge.com by salem.ge.com (4.1/SMI-4.1)id AA11372; Tue, 9 Apr 96 15:47:25 EDT Received: from localhost (steve@localhost) by combs.salem.ge.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA03276 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:47:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen F. Combs" Reply-To: CombsSF@salem.ge.com To: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: ifconfig link1 problems Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been trying to use the 'ifconfig inet
link[0-2] up' syntax with 3Com cards ('509 and '589) on FreeBSD 2.0.5-Release, 2.1.0-Release, and on 2.1.0-Release with the 'pccard-test-960328' patches with no luck at all. On the 205 and the 210 systems it has no effect at all. On the 210-pccard system 'link2' (the UTP choice) does nothing, the 'link0' or 'link1' causes a hard system lock [ can't even get into the kernel debugger!] With any of these systems, the only way I've been able to switch xceiver types is with the 3Com config disk! If I've configured the -pccard system to use the BNC connector, it works just fine over BNC until I try to switch to UTP at which point it just quits sending packets. If I try to switch back to the BNC with a link1 option to ifconfig then the system dies! Unfortunately, my 3Com Tech Ref is just a LIIITLE out of date [the 505 is the "high performance" card]. I bought it in '85?:-)? I'm willing to do the grunt work myself, but I need a little guidance. ---- Stephen F. Combs Internet: CombsSF@Salem.GE.COM GE DS&TC Voice: 540.387.8828 Network Services Home: CombsSF-Home@Salem.GE.COM 1501 Roanoke Blvd FAX: 540.387.7106 Salem, VA 24153 LapTop: CombsSF-Mobile@Salem.GE.COM From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 13:49:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA12526 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [144.206.136.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA12513 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA17381 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:44:59 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Tue, 9 Apr 96 23:44:58 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by astral.msk.su (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA00959; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:14:59 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199604092014.AAA00959@astral.msk.su> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:14:59 +0400 (MSD) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604111454.KAA29763@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at "Apr 11, 96 10:54:10 am" From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (aka Andrey A. Chernov, Black Mage) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (BTW, in 2.1.0R: > > %kbdcontrol -d > /tmp/keymap > getting keymap: Inappropriate ioctl for device > > Any thoughts?) %kbdcontrol -d > /tmp/keymap < /dev/ttyv0 -- Andrey A. Chernov : And I rest so composedly, /Now, in my bed, ache@astral.msk.su : That any beholder /Might fancy me dead - http://dt.demos.su/~ache : Might start at beholding me, /Thinking me dead. RELCOM Team,FreeBSD Team : E.A.Poe From "For Annie" 1849 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 14:02:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA13665 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13657 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA05915; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:52:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604092052.NAA05915@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:52:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604092053.NAA02328@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Apr 9, 96 01:53:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I guess is easier to fire off a process to handle each separate > asynch io stream 8) I would suggest "stack regions" with mapped guard pages for automatic growth. This would require segmenting the kernel address space, since the stacks would really belong to the AST subsystem and be "borrowed" by the process. I believe this is what VMS does. The problem is the amount of work requires to implement the segmentation. VMS has 3 levels of hardware protection, which it uses to implement this. I would prefer to not have to rely on such a limited set of hardware for FreeBSD ports. This means breaking up the mappable data address space into ranges to allow stacks to be page mapped and guarded. Alternately, the compiler could be made to use relative rather than abosolute addressing for stack variables, which would let the stacks be relocated as necessary. This kind of assumes that the default usage would be one page, and that any more would start putting on overhead for page relocation. If stacks were relative, all that I would care about when accessing a stack variable would be the stack base and the relative address from the stack base, instead of the absolute address of where that area of stack is mapped in the dataspace. It's the fixed mapping that screws the ability to run around with multiple stacks (without carving up the data space into "potential stacks with guard pages", I mean). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 14:31:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA16099 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16084 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA29260; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:31:11 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:31:11 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199604092131.PAA29260@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: CombsSF@salem.ge.com Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Re: ifconfig link1 problems In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've been trying to use the 'ifconfig inet
> link[0-2] up' syntax with 3Com cards ('509 and '589) > on FreeBSD 2.0.5-Release, 2.1.0-Release, and on 2.1.0-Release with the > 'pccard-test-960328' patches with no luck at all. On the 205 and the 210 > systems it has no effect at all. On the 210-pccard system 'link2' (the > UTP choice) does nothing, the 'link0' or 'link1' causes a hard system lock > [ can't even get into the kernel debugger!] With any of these systems, > the only way I've been able to switch xceiver types is with the 3Com > config disk! Umm, on my system, it defaults to use the UTP device (whatever that is), which happens to be the RJ45 connector. To use the BNC connector, I must specify -link0 on the line. However, I'm not sure you can switch between the two connectors 'on the fly'. If the PC-CARD stuff works fine, you should be able to edit /etc/pccard.conf and add/remove -link0 and then do a hot swap of the card to make it work. As far as the link1 and link2 devices go, I'm not aware that they are even supported. The switch between the two different types occurs on the absence or prescense of link0. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 15:18:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA21414 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lightning.Stanford.EDU (tip-mp18-ncs-16.Stanford.EDU [36.173.1.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA21374 Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (bora@localhost) by lightning.Stanford.EDU (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA01115; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:18:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: lightning.Stanford.EDU: bora owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:18:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Bora Akyol X-Sender: bora@lightning.Stanford.EDU To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: doc@freebsd.org Subject: Problem during freebsd install process Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi I am trying to install freebsd on a box that had linux (red hat variety) on it. This is a GA-586ATE/p motherboard with the triton chipset. The hard drive is an ATA-2 Seagate 32140A (medalist). Before the install lilo would boot the LINUX partition fine. Before I installed freebsd, I performed fdisk /mbr under M$-DOZE and verified that the system boots MSDOS fine. Then I deleted the LINUX partitions and verified that they were deleted. After all this preliminaries. I proceeded to install FreeBSD from the WALNUT CREEK cdrom. I chose to install booteasy on the MBR and used FREEBSD fdisk. Now the problem is after the install booteasy will not boot the freebsd partition. I am stumped. Never had any problem with booteasy before. What did I do wrong, any suggestions? While I am at it, does anybody know if someone is working on a MV-Jazz 16 sound card driver for FreeBSD? Thanks Bora Akyol Department of Electrical Engineering Stanford University akyol@leland.stanford.edu http://wireless.stanford.edu/~akyol From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 15:26:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA23037 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from davinci.isds.duke.edu (davinci.isds.duke.edu [152.3.22.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA23025 Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diego.isds.duke.edu (diego.isds.duke.edu [152.3.22.47]) by davinci.isds.duke.edu (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA19032; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:26:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Gallatin Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by diego.isds.duke.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) id SAA28953; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604092226.SAA28953@diego.isds.duke.edu> To: Chuck Robey Cc: rich@rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help! Mathematica for Linux in standalone mode In-Reply-To: References: <199604032315.SAA28789@cole.isds.duke.edu> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey writes: > I have the student (Linux) version working fine under FreeBSD-current, > but I have never run 2.1.0, so I don't know what limitations it has. > I've never seen the error (General::codespace: Code space corrupted) that > you did. I think I've solved my own problem (which was of my own making), and I now have the full version of Mathematica 2.2.4 for Linux working under 2.1R with a few minor hacks to the linux emulator. My problem was that I'd attempted to emulate the linux SIOCGIFHWADDR & done a very poor job of it. This was apparently corrupting Mathematica. Basically, the ioctl is supposed to return a pointer to a Linux ifreq struct & I was passing it a pointer to an array of chars. Once I cleaned this up, my problems went away. I'll be happy to pass my solution on to anybody who wants/needs it, but if you're just trying to get the standalone version of Mathematica going, you can safely ignore the missing ioctl & all should be fine. I also want to thank Chuck Robley & Rich Murphey for the help they sent me. It was much appreciated. Drew From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 17:17:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA02253 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bubba.tribe.com ([205.184.207.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA02246 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.tribe.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA15187; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:17:10 -0700 From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199604100017.RAA15187@bubba.tribe.com> Subject: Re: Routing questions To: archie@tribe.com (Archie Cobbs) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604082015.NAA06876@bubba.tribe.com> from "Archie Cobbs" at Apr 8, 96 01:15:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wrote: > Suppose I want to have a dial-on-demand PPP connection. > OK so I setup the routes, run PPP, and PPP opens the interface > and waits for a packet to be sent. The interface is initially > numbered 10.1.1.1 -> 11.1.1.1. Result: > > Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire > default 10.1.1.1 USc 0 0 tun0 > 10.1.1.1 127.0.0.1 UH 0 0 lo0 > 11.1.1.1 10.1.1.1 UH 1 0 tun0 > > Then a packet gets sent, so PPP opens dials the peer and negotiates > the IP addresses. Oops, the server at the remote end wants us > to use 12.1.1.1 -> 13.1.1.1 instead of what I had before. I have > no choice. So I take my interface down ("ifconfig tun0 down delete"), > and then bring it back up again, this time with the new IP addresses > assigned by the server: 12.1.1.1 -> 13.1.1.1. > > Now a look at the routing table shows: > > Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire > default 10.1.1.1 USc 0 0 tun0 > 10.1.1.1 127.0.0.1 UH 0 0 lo0 > 13.1.1.1 12.1.1.1 UH 0 0 tun0 > > First point: this looks like it shouldn't work, since now nowhere in the > system is there an interface with the number 10.1.1.1. But sending a > packet to an anonymous IP address does cause it to get sent through > the tun0 interface. Moreover, it is assigned the source address 10.1.1.1 > instead of 12.1.1.1 like it should. Oops. > > Next point: since the route to 10.1.1.1 via 127.0.0.1 was automatically > generated by the first ifconfig, shouldn't it too be automatically > removed when the interface is taken down? It is no longer the number > of any local interface, up or down. And hey! what happened to the > analogous local route for 12.1.1.1? I think there's a critical missing component here... the default original route was added with the command: route add default -interface 10.1.1.1 This seemed the correct thing to do after reading the route(8) man page... but it seems to be a partial cause of the above weirdness. I second the idea of having a user level "route manager" do *all* of this stuff having to do with routing changes when interfaces go up and down... This would simplify the kernel and get some of the logic of it all out into the light where people can see what really is going on... You would just set whatever policy you wanted via some config file and let it go. -Archie __________________________________________________________________________ Archie L. Cobbs, archie@tribe.com * Whistle Communications Corporation From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 17:22:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA02760 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA02753 Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA17920; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:19:37 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604100049.KAA17920@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:19:37 +0930 (CST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604111454.KAA29763@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Apr 11, 96 10:54:10 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kaleb S. KEITHLEY stands accused of saying: > (BTW, in 2.1.0R: > > %kbdcontrol -d > /tmp/keymap > getting keymap: Inappropriate ioctl for device > > Any thoughts?) Try pointing it at the console, you're in an xterm : % kbdcontrol -d /tmp/keymap > Kaleb KEITHLEY -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 17:30:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA03389 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xi.dorm.umd.edu (root@xi.dorm.umd.edu [129.2.152.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA03384 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (smpatel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xi.dorm.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA04094; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:30:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Sujal Patel X-Sender: smpatel@xi.dorm.umd.edu To: Phil Taylor cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 0323SNAP Broken support for ATI 1500 cards in lnc ? In-Reply-To: <14E4350390B@lansys.webleicester.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Phil Taylor wrote: > I am trying to install the 960323 SNAP onto a machine with an Allied > Telesyn AT1500 card which worked perfectly with the lnc driver under > 2.1 release but although it is detected in the snap I can't talk it. I too had problems with this exact card... I think it broke around (at?) version 1.18 of if_lnc.c In my case the card slowed to a crawl (5-20k/s). Any idea what's wrong, I don't have the card in my computer anymore- so I can't verify the bug even exists anymore for me. Sujal From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 17:44:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA04318 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04309 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA11395 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:44:20 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: DOS Emulator now available for porting to FreeBSD. Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 17:44:19 -0700 Message-ID: <11392.829097059@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Some of you may recall some coy comments on my part a few weeks back about something being on the way vis-a-vis DOS emulation for FreeBSD and that we shouldn't be too quick to jump on the Linux dosemu bandwagon. My reasons for refusing to elaborate with more details on this until now were simply that I did not want to jeopardize my negotiations with BSDI through Keith Bostic, whom I approached at USENIX '96 about a possible "partnership" arrangement whereby we would get their DOS emulator, something FreeBSD has needed for quite awhile, and BSDI would get a bunch of extra people hacking on it, improving it in various ways and, of course, feeding those changes back to BSDI as part of the bargain. Well, I'm very pleased indeed to announce that after some months of negotiations, Keith has managed to convince the powers-that-be within BSDI to do the deal, allowing me to now speak more freely about it! Since this emulator was originally written for BSD/OS, I don't expect its integration into FreeBSD to be entirely painless, and it will take some dedicated work to merge it in while ensuring that we don't break anything in the BSDI support (which would not be part of the deal!). I would therefore like to call for all the people who've expressed an interest in working on this (or would like to express an interest now) to "step forward" as it were and declare their participation to the hackers@freebsd.org mailing list so that we may coordinate our efforts. I have also made the following resources available to those doing the development: 1. The original sources to the BSD/OS DOS emulator, as well as the first BSDI supplied patch to it, are available from: ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/incoming/rundos.tar.gz ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/incoming/rundos.tar.gz.PATCH-1 2. In order to ensure that we don't break BSDI compatibility along the way, I've also installed BSD/OS 2.01 on one of my machines and will give accounts on the box to anyone working on the project. Just send me a passwd line or point to an existing one on freefall if you already have an account there and I'll send you the login information. I'm really enthusiastic about this project, not just for what it represents in finally getting ourselves a working DOS emulator but also for the chance to finally do something in cooperation with BSDI. One of us may be commercial and the other not, but we're both solidly in the BSD camp and I think we have a lot more in common than many other parts of the operating systems community - I'm very happy at the precedent we have a chance to set here. Paul Borman is our contact at BSDI on this project, though I would really rather prefer that our dealings with him go primarily through one or two people at most. The last thing we want to do is swamp the poor guy with email and make him regret that this ever happened! That said, if you do find something in the code that you feel would be of direct interest to him, then certainly by all means contact him personally, but let's just try and keep it from becoming a stampede! :-) Finally, if you've ever had any interest at all in seeing DOS emulation come to FreeBSD then please do consider volunteering some time to this effort - your contributions will be crucial - and certainly don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 17:46:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA04410 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04389 Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA11422; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:45:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Bora Akyol cc: hackers@freebsd.org, doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem during freebsd install process In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Apr 1996 15:18:09 PDT." Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 17:45:29 -0700 Message-ID: <11420.829097129@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > After all this preliminaries. I proceeded to install FreeBSD from the > WALNUT CREEK cdrom. I chose to install booteasy on the MBR and used > FREEBSD fdisk. Now the problem is after the install booteasy will not boot > the freebsd partition. I am stumped. Never had any problem with booteasy > before. What did I do wrong, any suggestions? Are you absolutely positive you had the disk geometry correct? See the notes in INSTALL.TXT and HARDWARE.TXT. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 17:47:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA04497 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.local (slip139-92-42-161.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.161]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04474 Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jhs@localhost) by vector.jhs.local (8.7.3/8.6.9) id CAA10222; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:28:59 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:28:59 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199604100028.CAA10222@vector.jhs.local> To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Adaptec 1542A Users From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (pending modem change) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH [version 1.6.5 95 12 11], PGP available Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If both of these are true for you: - Don't have login access on a system with an Adaptec 1542A SCSI Controller. - Aren't interested in scsi or kernel. Save Time & SKIP THIS MAIL ! If only one line is true, or neither is true ... read on please :-) (1542B-only-owners should ignore this, I too have a B, & it shows no problems) This is an Appeal For Email Addresses of the few remaining programmers who have user access (root access un-necessary) to systems with Adaptec 1542 A SCSI controllers, with at least 2 scsi disc drives, on FreeBSD-2.1 (ie CD release), stable, or current, (2.0.5 & earlier probably also relevant) I have found a bug, involving sd1 & sd2 & sd3 (but not sd0), asserting 8 * 0xFF at the beginning of random blocks aligned at 0x1000 intervals. I want to clarify if it's a generic FreeBSD bug or unique to my card. I have written a smallish testblock.c & .man I would like to send you, that runs in user mode (no root access or S bits or access to devices required), it's well behaved & writes a test pattern to a normal file, I would like you to mail me resulting error messages if any. Volunteers can be assured it's only 5 minutes work to run the test prog, it won't zap your disk, & it may catch a nasty bug you didn't even know you had :-) Please email me your names privately, without bothering to CC lists. Thanks ! (PS apologies for having dual posted current & hackers, but I need the non overlapping subsets). Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ (PGP available) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 18:01:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA06213 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rogerswave.ca (mail.rogerswave.ca [198.231.117.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA06199 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (wong.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by rogerswave.ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA23702; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:45:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Wong To: Terry Lambert cc: "Amancio Hasty Jr." , terry@lambert.org, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604091715.KAA05209@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Adding AST's would not be as easy as, for instance, replacing the > environment space with logical name support. > yeah, you need kernel support for this. each AST is like a letter to the process. kernel has to allocate/de-allocate such a "letter" dynamically. If we can implement that, we are not far from real time unix. Ken From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 18:37:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA09444 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA09438 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA06479; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:26:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604100126.SAA06479@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: wong@rogerswave.ca (Wong) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:26:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: from "Wong" at Apr 9, 96 08:45:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Adding AST's would not be as easy as, for instance, replacing the > > environment space with logical name support. > > > > yeah, you need kernel support for this. each AST is like a letter > to the process. kernel has to allocate/de-allocate such a "letter" > dynamically. > > If we can implement that, we are not far from real time unix. AST's are easy. It's the stacks they need to run while your program is already using your only stack that are annoying. Queued event delivery shouldn't have any impact on how RT the system is or isn't (maybe I just can't see what you mean...). Message passing does not a R.T. system make, in my book... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 19:01:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA10906 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spooky.rwwa.com (rwwa.com [198.115.177.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA10900 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.rwwa.com (localhost.rwwa.com [127.0.0.1]) by spooky.rwwa.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA08148 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:01:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199604100201.WAA08148@spooky.rwwa.com> X-Authentication-Warning: spooky.rwwa.com: Host localhost.rwwa.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GNU binutils port In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 11:19:47 MDT." <199604081719.LAA26093@rover.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 22:01:28 -0400 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think that I must be missing something here... Well, it might be my complaint that binutils *doesn't* build out of the box... ;-) Any help there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 592 8935, Net: witr@rwwa.COM From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 20:17:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA16819 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.34.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA16811 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA11354; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:15:30 -0700 From: Josh MacDonald Message-Id: <199604100315.UAA11354@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: Warner Losh cc: Robert Withrow , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GNU binutils port In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Apr 1996 16:29:05 MST." <199604062329.QAA26137@rover.village.org> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 20:15:29 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > : Out of curiosity, why is that (both of thats that is... ;-) > > Because binutils doesn't support FreeBSD's shared libraries. Also, > gcc is bundled with FreeBSD, so there is no need to have it as a port. > This, and the claim that gcc 'compiles out of the box' is just not true! It frustrates me a lot that eveyone seems to think so, but if you'll actually try pushing the compiler or using the c++ front end, you will discover lots of ways in which it does not configure itself properly. The latest round of g++ bug reports I have sent in have come back with the message that "this bug will be fixed in version 2.8.0, the next major release". FreeBSD is still running 2.6.3! The further FreeBSD gets away from the head of the gcc branch, the less willing people are going to be to use it. I personally don't have enough knowledge of FreeBSD to make the binutils upgrade, but you can avoid the current assembler `problems by undeffing ASM_WEAKEN_LABEL in the config file. The GNU binutils 1.x ld works well enough to upgrade compilers as well. The last time this came up the core team was saying "We don't want to change compilers right before the 2.1 release and break everything." How about now, its really time. Otherwise, people will come up to me and say, "You still run FreeBSD, Josh?" and I'll answer yes, and they'll laugh, "Ha, you guys are still using gcc-2.6!" Its getting ridiculous, considering how easy it is to import the tree. NetBSD has it running, why, may I ask, is the 2.2 tree not tracking gcc-2.7? -josh > Actually, binutils compiles great on FreeBSD if you are using it as a > cross compiler to another, supported platform. :-(. > > All of this stems from the fact that ld in FreeBSD is a binutils 1.x > era ld and the needed functionality would be, ahhh, non-trivial to > bring forward into the 2.x line. > > There is some noise about ELF fixing all of this, but I'm not sure how > much of that is GEE WIZZ stuff, and how much is production quality > hardened code. With ELF, it would be very easy to use the latest > binutils 2.1. In fact, there is a ELF link kit for people that are > running -current that want to play around with this stuff, but memory > escapes me at the moment... > > Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 21:11:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA20435 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20422 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id WAA18693; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:09:26 -0600 Message-Id: <199604100409.WAA18693@rover.village.org> To: Josh MacDonald Subject: Re: GNU binutils port Cc: Robert Withrow , hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 09 Apr 1996 20:15:29 PDT Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 22:09:25 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : This, and the claim that gcc 'compiles out of the box' is just not true! For the domain that I was talking about, Cross Coompilation, gcc compiles out of the box w/o a hassle. At least for the half dozen cross compilers that I've built. Haven't built a C++ one, however. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 21:49:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA23183 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (root@usi-00-10.Naperville.unety.net [204.70.107.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA23178 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webster.unety.net (webster.unety.net [206.31.202.8]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA06576; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:43:46 -0500 Received: by webster.unety.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BB266E.C18382A0@webster.unety.net>; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:46:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01BB266E.C18382A0@webster.unety.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "CombsSF@salem.ge.com" , "'Nate Williams'" Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: RE: ifconfig link1 problems Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:46:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, April 09, 1996 4:31 PM, Nate Williams[SMTP:nate@sri.MT.net] wrote: @> I've been trying to use the 'ifconfig inet
@> link[0-2] up' syntax with 3Com cards ('509 and '589) @> on FreeBSD 2.0.5-Release, 2.1.0-Release, and on 2.1.0-Release with the @> 'pccard-test-960328' patches with no luck at all. On the 205 and the 210 @> systems it has no effect at all. On the 210-pccard system 'link2' (the @> UTP choice) does nothing, the 'link0' or 'link1' causes a hard system lock @> [ can't even get into the kernel debugger!] With any of these systems, @> the only way I've been able to switch xceiver types is with the 3Com @> config disk! @ @ @However, I'm not sure you can switch between the two connectors 'on the @fly'. @ The 3C509B is the standard card in our ISA-based systems. It has many interesting traits which appear to be a result of its ability to coexist with several such cards and to be autoconfigured via Port 100. Evidently, multiple cards listen on the Port and respond at various times. This makes for some potentially unpredictable results but this appears to only be when the system is first powered up. Also, the three interface options (TP, BNC, and AUI) make it a more complex card. The AUI interface is rarely used and in early drivers seemed to be the default interface. As you point out, the 3Com configure disk can be used to force the right settings into the non-volatile memory. (The old days of jumpers on cards seem easier at times) Even with pre-set values, I have found the cards "move around". They seem to have a life of their own. One thing to note is that the system has to have power removed after changing the Plug & Play setting. Just for good measure, we remove power when all changes are made via the 3Com utility. When we are really paranoid, we take the card out of the system and reseat it, although I do not believe this does anything. Also, these cards used to work in our systems only when Plug & Play was disabled. Now we have found that they only work with Plug and Play enabled. We have never been able to figure out why. We have been able to change the interface from Twisted Pair (10 Base T) to Thin Net (BNC and coax) on the fly. Old versions of the drivers did not do this because the logic did not allow the combination of Link0 and Link1 bits to select the right interface. It is my understanding that this was fixed. By on the fly, I mean once when the system boots or during reconfiguration not on a per packet basis. The newer cards and the movement to 100 Mbps interfaces has prompted a rethinking of the Link0 and Link1 settings. There is a table somewhere that describes how the new and old settings interwork. In general, these are great cards. They exhibit more mysterious behavior than any interface card we have used. Despite this, we continue to use only these cards because they work once they find the right groove. -- Jim Fleming UNETY Systems, Inc. Naperville, IL 60563 e-mail: JimFleming@unety.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 22:50:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA28939 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA28902 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA02746; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:48:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199604100548.WAA02746@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: wong@rogerswave.ca (Wong), roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@freebsd.org, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Apr 1996 18:26:11 PDT." <199604100126.SAA06479@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 22:48:19 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert said: > > > Adding AST's would not be as easy as, for instance, replacing the > > > environment space with logical name support. > > > > > > > yeah, you need kernel support for this. each AST is like a letter > > to the process. kernel has to allocate/de-allocate such a "letter" > > dynamically. > > > > If we can implement that, we are not far from real time unix. > > AST's are easy. It's the stacks they need to run while your program > is already using your only stack that are annoying. > > Queued event delivery shouldn't have any impact on how RT the system > is or isn't (maybe I just can't see what you mean...). Message > passing does not a R.T. system make, in my book... However, we at least will need a mechanism to deliver asynchronous events;thus, one step closer to R.T. system 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 9 23:41:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA03378 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA03363 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA22095; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:36:00 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604100706.QAA22095@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: GNU binutils port To: jmacd@CS.Berkeley.EDU (Josh MacDonald) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:36:00 +0930 (CST) Cc: imp@village.org, witr@rwwa.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604100315.UAA11354@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> from "Josh MacDonald" at Apr 9, 96 08:15:29 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Josh MacDonald stands accused of saying: > > Its getting ridiculous, considering how easy it is to import > the tree. NetBSD has it running, why, may I ask, is the 2.2 > tree not tracking gcc-2.7? Because last time people tried (2.7.2 IIRC), it failed to correctly compile the kernel, the X servers, and a few other things people threw at it. 2.6.3 may be "old hat", but it works. I remember being laughed at for sticking with 1.39 while the world was wailing and gnashing it's teeth over 2.2 and the grief there. If it's 2.8 before the major problems are fixed, I can't see us losing too much sleep 8) > -josh -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 00:16:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA05836 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05830 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with SMTP id IAA10785 ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:10:41 +0100 (BST) To: Michael Smith cc: jmacd@CS.Berkeley.EDU (Josh MacDonald), imp@village.org, witr@rwwa.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: GNU binutils port In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:36:00 +0930." <199604100706.QAA22095@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:10:41 +0100 Message-ID: <10783.829120241@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote in message ID <199604100706.QAA22095@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>: > Josh MacDonald stands accused of saying: > > Its getting ridiculous, considering how easy it is to import > > the tree. NetBSD has it running, why, may I ask, is the 2.2 > > tree not tracking gcc-2.7? > Because last time people tried (2.7.2 IIRC), it failed to correctly compile > the kernel, the X servers, and a few other things people threw at it. I seem to remember this is because of small changes in the way GCC specific stuff is handled, and there is TONS of that scattered throughout our tree, and no-one who has the knowledge of how to fix this has the time. I also think the general opinion was ``wait until they bring out a release which has fewer problems than most of the 2.7.x series (to date) had, or we'll just be causing problems for ourselves''. Gary From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 01:36:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA11516 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from love.MCCP.com (love.mccp.com [206.86.92.190]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA11465 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root@localhost by love.MCCP.com id BAA01538; (8.6.12/RDY) Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:36:07 -0700 From: gena@love.MCCP.com (Gena Gulchin) Message-Id: <199604100836.BAA01538@love.MCCP.com> Subject: HELP To: hackers@Freebsd.org Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:36:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL14 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@Freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm having problems with Imake ;-( When I try to make something under X11, it does not translate "XCOMM" into "#" for Makefile.... Any halp is appreciated TIA --Gena From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 03:12:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA19654 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 03:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.NL.net (ns.NL.net [193.78.240.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA19638 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 03:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spase by ns.NL.net via EUnet id AA08118 (5.65b/CWI-3.3); Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:24:05 +0200 Received: from phobos.spase.nl (phobos [192.9.200.238]) by mercurius.spase.nl (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA00431 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:21:27 +0200 From: Kees Jan Koster Received: (dutchman@localhost) by phobos.spase.nl (8.6.12/8.6.11) id NAA03299 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:27:19 +0200 Message-Id: <199604101127.NAA03299@phobos.spase.nl> Subject: dd result. To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD hackers Mailing list) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:27:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How comes the 486 needs twice as much time > as a P90 to complete just about any task ? ;-) > > Honestly: I'm not sure what you are doing > in these tests, since the numbers are low > for the NCR SCSI as well as the IDE case. > > I'd guess that both the Seagate and the > Maxtor are old drives (or they'd read more > than 2MB/s in the "Block Input" test). > > > How about a different test: > > # time dd if=/dev/rsd0c of=/dev/null bs=64k count=1000 > 1000+0 records in > 1000+0 records out > 65536000 bytes transferred in 9 secs (7281777 bytes/sec) > 9.32 real 0.02 user 0.24 sys > > (ASUS SP3G with NCR and Quantum Atlas 2GB.) > > What are your numbers for both the NCR and > the EIDE system ? > # time dd if=/dev/rwd0s1 of=/dev/null bs=64k count=1000 1000+0 records in 1000+0 records out 65536000 bytes transferred in 26 secs (2520615 bytes/sec) 26.20 real 0.04 user 0.29 sys Seems to me there's something left to be configured. the system is (the IDE controller is on-board): CPU: 90-MHz Pentium 735\\90 (Pentium-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 Features=0x1bf wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 on isa wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): wd0: 810MB (1660176 sectors), 1647 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 05:21:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA29875 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 05:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA29856 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 05:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id OAA17589 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:20:44 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id OAA04548 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:20:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA13190 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:36:53 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604101136.NAA13190@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:36:53 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199604111454.KAA29763@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Apr 11, 96 10:54:10 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > > X should inherit this from the console driver too... > > > > If kbdcontrol gave us an easy way to tell what the keymap actually is, > as opposed to a bunch of raw data. I don't want to have to try to parse > a keymap to tell what it is. This used to work before the xkb code went in. (I admit that the *way* how it worked was quite painful, but the initial mapping was there in place.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 05:50:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA01713 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 05:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA01703 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 05:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA21676; Wed, 10 Apr 96 08:49:55 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id IAA01879; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:49:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199604101249.IAA01879@exalt.x.org> To: J Wunsch Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:36:53 EST. <199604101136.NAA13190@uriah.heep.sax.de> Organization: X Consortium Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:49:45 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > > > > X should inherit this from the console driver too... > > > > > > > If kbdcontrol gave us an easy way to tell what the keymap actually is, > > as opposed to a bunch of raw data. I don't want to have to try to parse > > a keymap to tell what it is. > > This used to work before the xkb code went in. The point being? > (I admit that the > *way* how it worked was quite painful, but the initial mapping was > there in place.) If you don't want the features of XKB, run the server with -xkb or add XkbDisable to your XF86Config. Really, how tough is it to edit your XF86Config file? Yeah, it'd be nice if you didn't have to do it two places, but it doesn't take a PhD to do it either, so kwicherbitchen and edit your XF86Config file to make XKB load the keymap you want. If you want XKB in XFree86 to automatically work better on FreeBSD then I need some better support at the OS level. -- Kaleb "Grumpy" KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 06:11:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA03325 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA03318 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA00947; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:08:53 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199604101308.IAA00947@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI). To: se@ZPR.Uni-Koeln.DE (Stefan Esser) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:08:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, dutchman@spase.nl, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604091900.AA05584@Sisyphos> from "Stefan Esser" at Apr 9, 96 09:00:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > What I'd really like to see is "disklatency" > output obtained on a fast EIDE system. > Here are some latency results from my machine (2 runs): P5-166, 40MBytes of memory. I would not judge the performance of SCSI in general too harshly, the Hawk is not an extremely high performance drive. I'll follow up with some results from other systems that I can test on later today. NCR-SCSI driver ASUS SC200 W/ST12400 2.1GB Hawk Command overhead is 1370 usec (time_4096 = 2093, time_8192 = 2815) transfer speed is 5.6707e+06 bytes/sec Command overhead is 839 usec (time_4096 = 2093, time_8192 = 3347) transfer speed is 3.26577e+06 bytes/sec Standard IDE W/WDC540H Command overhead is 436 usec (time_4096 = 2001, time_8192 = 3565) transfer speed is 2.61859e+06 bytes/sec Command overhead is 436 usec (time_4096 = 2002, time_8192 = 3568) transfer speed is 2.61586e+06 bytes/sec EIDE W/WDC540H Command overhead is 375 usec (time_4096 = 814, time_8192 = 1254) transfer speed is 9.31994e+06 bytes/sec Command overhead is 368 usec (time_4096 = 800, time_8192 = 1231) transfer speed is 9.49095e+06 bytes/sec EIDE W/WDC 1.6GB Command overhead is 217 usec (time_4096 = 513, time_8192 = 809) transfer speed is 1.38444e+07 bytes/sec Command overhead is 196 usec (time_4096 = 502, time_8192 = 808) transfer speed is 1.33987e+07 bytes/sec SCSI 2.2X CDROM Command overhead is 5655 usec (time_4096 = 9033, time_8192 = 12410) transfer speed is 1.21281e+06 bytes/sec Command overhead is 5670 usec (time_4096 = 9046, time_8192 = 12422) transfer speed is 1.21324e+06 bytes/sec John From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 06:16:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA03823 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntserv.webleicester.co.uk ([206.249.75.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA03813 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.249.75.17] by ntserv.webleicester.co.uk (NTMail 3.01.00) id ta002151; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:16:34 +0000 Received: from LANSYS/SpoolDir by lansys.webleicester.co.uk (Mercury 1.21); 10 Apr 96 14:17:04 +0000 Received: from SpoolDir by LANSYS (Mercury 1.21); 10 Apr 96 14:16:57 +0000 From: "Phil Taylor" Organization: Lan Systems To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:16:53 GMT Subject: Chase Research Serial Cards Reply-to: phil@lansys.webleicester.co.uk Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <15F17172DCE@lansys.webleicester.co.uk> X-Info: The Web Factory (Leicester) Elecctronic Mail System Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Subject: Failed mail Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:15:47 +0000 From: NTMail --------------------------------------------------------------------- Could not resolve the address "freebsd.org" Please check you have entered the email address correctly. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Your message follows: >Received: from [206.249.75.17] by ntserv.webleicester.co.uk (NTMail 3.01.00) id pa002147; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:12:58 +0000 >Received: from LANSYS/SpoolDir by lansys.webleicester.co.uk (Mercury 1.21); Has anyone got any info on the Chase Research AT series Multi-Serial Cards ? I have an AT-4 (4-Port) Card and if I can find info on it wouldn't mind trying to write a driver for FBSD !!! There are 'currently' SCO DOS and OS/2 drivers on thier ftp site (ftp.chaser.com) but no *bsd based ones. I have emailed them for data but thought I would see if any of you hackers know anything about this card. Cheers Phil. /* Phil Taylor phil@webleicester.co.uk LAN Systems - LAN/WAN Specialists */ . /* Phil Taylor phil@webleicester.co.uk LAN Systems - LAN/WAN Specialists */ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 06:18:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA03933 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neon.Glock.COM (neon.glock.com [198.82.228.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA03922 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mmead@localhost) by neon.Glock.COM (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00810; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:15:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "matthew c. mead" Message-Id: <199604101315.JAA00810@neon.Glock.COM> Subject: Re: IPX routing? To: jhay@mikom.csir.co.za (John Hay) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604091902.VAA25752@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> from "John Hay" at Apr 9, 96 09:02:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Hay writes: > > Has anyone done any IPX routing on FreeBSD? > We are using it here at the company I work for. It is mostly the stuff in > FreeBSD-current. The main problem with it at the moment is the handling > of type 20 (Netbios) packets. I am currently testing it here and will > commit it when I am happy with that. Hmm. How feasible would it be to get that code running under 2.1.0R? If it's not very feasible I may update my proxyarp gateway box to -current since it's been pretty stable lately. The reason I want to be able to route IPX packets between interfaces is because I have two machines hanging off one 10baseT port in my apartment and want to do IPX network stuff (mainly games) with other people on the subnet in my apartment complex. -matt -- Matthew C. Mead mmead@Glock.COM http://www.Glock.COM/~mmead/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 06:23:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA04396 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lenzi (ra11.dial.ufsc.br [150.162.246.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA04374 Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lenzi@localhost) by lenzi (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01527; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:24:58 -0300 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:24:55 -0300 (EST) From: "Lenzi, Sergio" X-Sender: lenzi@lenzi To: ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello all. I have uploaded (in pub/FreeBSD/incoming) a package (lesstif.tgz) that is a motif compatible window manager (with includes and libXm.a/libXm.so.0.36) I am using mwm program compiled within and seems to work OK. Waiting for any comments, Sergio Lenzi. Unix consult. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 06:31:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA04977 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA04970 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14632; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:28:41 +0200 Message-Id: <199604101328.PAA14632@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:28:40 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: j@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604101249.IAA01879@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Apr 10, 96 08:49:45 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Kaleb S. KEITHLEY who wrote: > > > This used to work before the xkb code went in. > > The point being? > > > (I admit that the > > *way* how it worked was quite painful, but the initial mapping was > > there in place.) > > If you don't want the features of XKB, run the server with -xkb or add > XkbDisable to your XF86Config. Really, how tough is it to edit your XF86Config > file? Yeah, it'd be nice if you didn't have to do it two places, but it doesn't > take a PhD to do it either, so kwicherbitchen and edit your XF86Config file > to make XKB load the keymap you want. You should add a nice little util to do this (thats one of the things I like about Xinsides server :) ) > > If you want XKB in XFree86 to automatically work better on FreeBSD then I > need some better support at the OS level. Sigh, the support is (was) there look in the old sources, it worked just fine, I think you guys screwed up if you broke that support ! Besides FreeBSD is not the only one using this interface, SCO & SVR4 does it like this too... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 06:33:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA05216 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.id.net (root@server.id.net [199.125.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA05209 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rls@localhost) by server.id.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA01340 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:33:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Shady Message-Id: <199604101333.JAA01340@server.id.net> Subject: Help!? Coding SDL RiscCom/N2 driver To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:33:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been working on this driver now for a little while, it works, but after a few minutes of high-throughput (40+ K per second) it runs out of buffers! And it also should probably be converted to use the internal synchronous PPP stuff. Can ANYBODY help? I need to get this done today, I might even be willing to drop a couple bucks in your direction... Please let me know.. It's relatively straight forward, the driver is based on the hitachi 64570 chipset... -- Rob === _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ Innovative Data Services Serving South-Eastern Michigan Internet Service Provider / Hardware Sales / Consulting Services Voice: (810)855-0404 / Fax: (810)855-3268 / Web: http://www.id.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 07:02:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA08323 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA08314 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA22629; Wed, 10 Apr 96 10:01:48 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id KAA02041; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:01:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199604101401.KAA02041@exalt.x.org> To: sos@FreeBSD.org Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:28:40 EST. <199604101328.PAA14632@ra.dkuug.dk> Organization: X Consortium Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:01:46 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If you don't want the features of XKB, run the server with -xkb or add > > XkbDisable to your XF86Config. Really, how tough is it to edit your XF86Config > > file? Yeah, it'd be nice if you didn't have to do it two places, but it doesn't > > take a PhD to do it either, so kwicherbitchen and edit your XF86Config file > > to make XKB load the keymap you want. > > You should add a nice little util to do this (thats one of the things > I like about Xinsides server :) ) A nice little util to do what? Edit the XF86Config file? Got one, it's called vi, or emacs. To load a keymap? XKB already has a nice little util to load a keymap. RTFM xkbcomp. > > > > If you want XKB in XFree86 to automatically work better on FreeBSD then I > > need some better support at the OS level. > > Sigh, the support is (was) there look in the old sources, it worked just > fine, You just don't get it. The "support that is (was) there" consisted of dumping a raw keymap into the server overwriting the one that's compiled in. That "support" is still there and you'll get it if you use -xkb or XkbDisable. But XKB doesn't work take raw keymaps. If you had read any of the other stuff I've posted on this topic then you would have understood this. XKB takes names. Sun and Digital boxes return country codes that can easily be translated to names. FreeBSD needs an interface that returns names, not keymaps. >I think you guys screwed up if you broke that support ! Excuse me? I think you guys screwed up by not having a better interface. If you had a better interface then the switch from non-XKB to XKB would have been seamless. In the mean time, editing your XF86Config file is the solution. Is that such a difficult concept? Why is there so much resistance to this? > Besides FreeBSD is not the only one using this interface, SCO & SVR4 > does it like this too... Does this represent a fundamental design shift for FreeBSD? I've made suggestions before, and used the rationale that SVR4 does it "this way." The answer was always, "we don't care what SVR4 does." I don't use SVR4 or SCO on my personal machine and I don't care what they do. If SVR4/SCO want better integration with XKB enabled servers they'll have to provide a better interface too. -- Kaleb "getting grumpier" KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 07:18:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA09410 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09400 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA26334; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:16:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199604101416.IAA26334@rover.village.org> To: gena@love.MCCP.com (Gena Gulchin) Subject: Re: HELP Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:36:05 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:16:44 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : When I try to make something under X11, it does not translate "XCOMM" into : "#" for Makefile.... You need to use the R6 Imake with R6 config files. Maybe you have one installed, but not the other. Check your paths to make sure that you are running an R6 one... This was one of the more obnoxious changes (but very needed) between R5 and R6. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 08:52:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA15751 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA15742 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA05003; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:48:23 +0200 From: John Hay Message-Id: <199604101548.RAA05003@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: Help!? Coding SDL RiscCom/N2 driver To: rls@server.id.net (Robert Shady) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:48:23 +0200 (SAT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604101333.JAA01340@server.id.net> from "Robert Shady" at Apr 10, 96 09:33:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I've been working on this driver now for a little while, it works, but after > a few minutes of high-throughput (40+ K per second) it runs out of buffers! > > And it also should probably be converted to use the internal synchronous PPP > stuff. Can ANYBODY help? I need to get this done today, I might even be > willing to drop a couple bucks in your direction... Please let me know.. > > It's relatively straight forward, the driver is based on the hitachi 64570 > chipset... > > -- Rob The Arnet/Digi SYNC570i device driver is also based on the 64570 chip. It is in -current sys/i386/isa/if_ar.c. You can have a look at it. There are some problems with the handling of receive errors that I have fixed but not commited yet. (I am waiting for feedback from one of the testers.) The driver is able to transfer 200+ Kbyte/s with a single channel on a 486DX50. If you are interrested I can send you the patch. John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@csir.co.za From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 08:57:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA16124 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA16119 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.20]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14498(10)>; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:57:06 PDT Received: by gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01663; Wed, 10 Apr 96 11:57:31 EDT Message-Id: <9604101557.AA01663@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DOS Emulator now available for porting to FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 09 Apr 1996 17:44:19 PDT." <11392.829097059@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:57:30 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Now since you have a different dos emulator, what would be involved to port it to linux? Does it support DPMI? Its always a better idea for programs to work the same way on multiple platforms. marty From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 08:58:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA16174 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA16160 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA05040; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:56:01 +0200 From: John Hay Message-Id: <199604101556.RAA05040@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: IPX routing? To: mmead@Glock.COM (matthew c. mead) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:56:00 +0200 (SAT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604101315.JAA00810@neon.Glock.COM> from "matthew c. mead" at Apr 10, 96 09:15:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > John Hay writes: > > > > Has anyone done any IPX routing on FreeBSD? > > > We are using it here at the company I work for. It is mostly the stuff in > > FreeBSD-current. The main problem with it at the moment is the handling > > of type 20 (Netbios) packets. I am currently testing it here and will > > commit it when I am happy with that. > > Hmm. How feasible would it be to get that code running > under 2.1.0R? If it's not very feasible I may update my proxyarp > gateway box to -current since it's been pretty stable lately. > The reason I want to be able to route IPX packets between > interfaces is because I have two machines hanging off one 10baseT > port in my apartment and want to do IPX network stuff (mainly > games) with other people on the subnet in my apartment complex. > > -matt > I think it will be a lot easier to use -current, if you can live with the idea of possibly getting an unstable snapshot. John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@csir.co.za From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 09:00:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16381 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA16375 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA24172 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:58:52 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604101628.BAA24172@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: DOS emulator; seek linker guru 8) To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:58:51 +0930 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hot on the heels of Jordan's little announcement, I'm looking for a linker guru (John P?) to resolve the "put the pieces together" part for the user code. The scenario is this : most of the emulator code goes into a module called "doscmd.kernel". This has a private crt0.o module, and its own main() function. It's linked as : doscmd.kernel: crt0.o ${OBJS} ld -N -T 110000 -o doscmd.kernel ${LDFLAGS} crt0.o ${OBJS} ${LDADD} This is then loaded by a bootstrapper, "doscmd", that reads the OMAGIC format kernel in at its load address, and jumps to said start address. Its built as : doscmd: doscmd.kernel doscmd_loader.o ld -N -o doscmd ${LDFLAGS} /usr/lib/crt0.o doscmd_loader.o ${LDADD} In both cases: LDFLAGS+=-L/usr/X11R6/lib LDADD+= -lX11 -lc The former builds (after some work 8) but linking dies thus: ld -N -T 110000 -o doscmd.kernel -L/usr/X11R6/lib crt0.o AsyncIO.o ParseBuffer.o bios.o cmos.o config.o cwd.o device.o disktab.o doscmd.o exe.o i386-pinsn.o inout.o int10.o int11.o int12.o int13.o int14.o int15.o int16.o int17.o int1a.o int20.o int21.o int2f.o int33.o intff.o mem.o port.o setver.o signal.o trace.o trap.o tty.o -lX11 -lc ld: No reference to __DYNAMIC The second fails with : cc -O -I/sys -I/usr/X11R6/include -I. -DDISASSEMBLER -c doscmd_loader.c ld -N -o doscmd -L/usr/X11R6/lib /usr/lib/crt0.o doscmd_loader.o -lX11 -lc doscmd_loader.o: Undefined symbol `___main' referenced from text segment I'm aware I probably haven't covered enough here for a full answer, but if anyone can offer any suggestions, I'm keen. Alternatively, I'll put what diffs I have somewhere that said enthusiast can get at to alleviate the tedium of getting the rest to compile. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 09:25:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA17874 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engenho.cefetsc.rct-sc.br ([200.19.221.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA17788 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lenzi@localhost) by engenho.cefetsc.rct-sc.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA01307; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:18:07 GMT Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:18:07 +0000 () From: Sergio de Almeida lenzi X-Sender: lenzi@engenho.cefetsc.rct-sc.br To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Willows Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello all, Can someone tell me please what is the status of the twin API for FreeBSD? Thanks, Sergio Lenzi. Unix consult. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 09:45:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA19395 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19389 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01580; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:44:05 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:44:05 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199604101644.KAA01580@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Marty Leisner" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DOS Emulator now available for porting to FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: <9604101557.AA01663@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> References: <11392.829097059@time.cdrom.com> <9604101557.AA01663@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Now since you have a different dos emulator, what would be involved > to port it to linux? Hold on now. Linux already has a DOS emulator, so why would they want another one. Also, why are you asking the FreeBSD mailing list what would be involved in porting a BSD emulator to Linux? We've got to figure out how much work it would be to port to FreeBSD first. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 09:46:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA19429 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19422 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01583; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:45:50 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:45:50 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199604101645.KAA01583@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Michael Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DOS emulator; seek linker guru 8) In-Reply-To: <199604101628.BAA24172@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199604101628.BAA24172@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The scenario is this : most of the emulator code goes into a module > called "doscmd.kernel". This has a private crt0.o module, and its > own main() function. It's linked as : > > doscmd.kernel: crt0.o ${OBJS} > ld -N -T 110000 -o doscmd.kernel ${LDFLAGS} crt0.o ${OBJS} ${LDADD} Try adding -Bstatic to the link line and see if that helps. Since none of the dynamic link code is used (it's normally in the system crt0.o file), static linking should work. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 10:38:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA24730 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA24725 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01658; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:38:28 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:38:28 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199604101738.LAA01658@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Job openings at SRI Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I know this isn't quite up to snuff, but given the high-quality of the folks here I thought I'd give it a shot, especially considering that this has been done in the past. Before any of you *hightly* qualified folks get any wrong ideas, these jobs are for new/recent grads (BS/MS/PhD), although we are also looking for a Windows guru since our previous attempt to hire one didn't work out (Hi Justin!). ---------------- SRI International, one the world's largest Research and Development consulting firms, is interested in individuals to join their software development staff in Helena, MT or Menlo Park, CA. As part of our team you will be involved in distributed database management, communications, signal processing, imagery analysis, and system engineering. These positions involve C/C++ programming under Unix and Windows(Win95, WNT) operating systems. Knowledge of communication protocols, SQL, and cross-platform development kits would be a plus. All information should be directed to: Nate Williams The Power Block, #4N Helena, MT 59601 voice: (406) 449 7662 fax: (406) 443 5692 email: nate@sneezy.sri.com ---------------- OBHumor: Montana - "Naturally Indicting" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 11:00:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA26056 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26048 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01479; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:59:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199604101759.KAA01479@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DOS Emulator now available for porting to FreeBSD. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:44:05 MDT." <199604101644.KAA01580@rocky.sri.MT.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:59:23 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Also how well does the BSDI's DOS emulator work ? Cheers, Amancio >>> Nate Williams said: > > Now since you have a different dos emulator, what would be involved > > to port it to linux? > > Hold on now. Linux already has a DOS emulator, so why would they want > another one. > > Also, why are you asking the FreeBSD mailing list what would be involved > in porting a BSD emulator to Linux? We've got to figure out how much > work it would be to port to FreeBSD first. > > > > Nate > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 11:01:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA26105 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26100 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA01728; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:01:13 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:01:13 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199604101801.MAA01728@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DOS Emulator now available for porting to FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: <199604101759.KAA01479@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199604101644.KAA01580@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199604101759.KAA01479@rah.star-gate.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Also how well does the BSDI's DOS emulator work ? Don't know, I've never run it. A BSDi person would be better qualifed to answer that question. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 11:08:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA26653 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.dsu.edu (ghelmer@alpha.dsu.edu [138.247.32.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26646 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ghelmer@localhost) by alpha.dsu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA12533 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:08:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:08:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Guy Helmer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Gravis Ultrasound PnP Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I ordered a Gravis Ultrasound MAX recently and received a Gravis Ultrasound Plug-n-Play instead. Does anyone have any suggestions for getting this device working with the FreeBSD sound drivers? I tried initializing it under DOS, rebooting via Ctrl-Alt-Del, and then booting FreeBSD, but it didn't recognize the card (neither gus0 nor sb0 probed successfully). Not having kept up with the FreeBSD Plug-n-Play discussions, is there any hope for using this card? Guy Helmer, Dakota State University Computing Services - ghelmer@alpha.dsu.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 12:51:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA03089 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perki.connect.com.au (perki.connect.com.au [192.189.54.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03075 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by perki.connect.com.au id FAA16730 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6); Thu, 11 Apr 1996 05:51:24 +1000 (EST) >Received: from localhost (giles@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nemeton.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA19230; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:32:20 +1000 Message-Id: <199604101132.VAA19230@nemeton.com.au> To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/jdk - Imported sources Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:32:19 +1000 From: Giles Lean Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Satoshi Asami wrote: > Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/jdk - Imported sources > > * Java Developers Kit. All ports that need the JDK's class libraries should > * rely on this port. > * > * Suggested by: asami > > Cool cool. Can someone convert kaffe and javac_netscape to depend on > this port? Careful; if you have CLASSPATH set in your environment for kaffe-0.3 netscape3 (Atlas) will coredump when trying to run Java applets. On the other hand, kaffe will run against the moz3_0.zip file distributed with netscape3. Giles From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 13:19:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA04970 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA04919 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA09274; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:18:17 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA04662; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:18:17 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA01273; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:10:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604102010.WAA01273@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: HELP To: gena@love.MCCP.com (Gena Gulchin) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:10:36 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199604100836.BAA01538@love.MCCP.com> from "Gena Gulchin" at Apr 10, 96 01:36:05 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Gena Gulchin wrote: > I'm having problems with Imake ;-( > > When I try to make something under X11, it does not translate "XCOMM" into > "#" for Makefile.... Are you using the wrong imake templates? The best way to invoke imake is ``xmkmf''. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 13:28:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06227 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seabass.progroup.com (seabass.progroup.com [206.24.122.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06218 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from craig@localhost) by seabass.progroup.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA15310 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:29:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199604102029.NAA15310@seabass.progroup.com> Subject: Re: GNU binutils port To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Craig Shaver" In-Reply-To: <199604100706.QAA22095@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 10, 96 04:36:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Josh MacDonald stands accused of saying: > > > > Its getting ridiculous, considering how easy it is to import > > the tree. NetBSD has it running, why, may I ask, is the 2.2 > > tree not tracking gcc-2.7? > > Because last time people tried (2.7.2 IIRC), it failed to correctly compile > the kernel, the X servers, and a few other things people threw at it. Is it the compiler or the code? I tried to compile the 2.1-R with 2.7.2 and it did not fail the compile, but the kernel was buggy. A saved make log showed a substantial number of warnings. A make log using the 2.6.3 compiler did not have any of those warnings. I have used the 2.7.2 compiler on Solaris 2.4 since it was available, and I have not had any problems I could attribute to the compiler. All of the ports I have compiled on 2.1-R have worked flawlessly (so far :*)! > > 2.6.3 may be "old hat", but it works. I remember being laughed at for > sticking with 1.39 while the world was wailing and gnashing it's teeth > over 2.2 and the grief there. If it's 2.8 before the major problems are > fixed, I can't see us losing too much sleep 8) I moved to 2.7.2 on solarais because people said 2.6.3 was buggy! What's up! btw, I have not tried c++ (g++) on freebsd, does it work? Are there any problems with linking? Dynamic libraries? Compiling STL? Should I consider FreeBSD a viable platform for applications development using c++? Motif? Would I be better off concentrating on Linux, and waiting for FreeBSD to catch up? Thanks, -- Craig Shaver (craig@progroup.com) (415)390-0654 Productivity Group POB 60458 Sunnyvale, CA 94088 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 13:47:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA07606 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA07595 Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA02340; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:44:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604102044.NAA02340@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br (Lenzi, Sergio) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:44:27 -0700 (MST) Cc: ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Lenzi, Sergio" at Apr 10, 96 10:24:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I have uploaded (in pub/FreeBSD/incoming) a package (lesstif.tgz) that is > a motif compatible window manager (with includes and libXm.a/libXm.so.0.36) > > I am using mwm program compiled within and seems to work OK. > > Waiting for any comments, You asked for comments; here are mine, for what they are worth: Lesstif is a clone Motif library, not a window manager. It is incomplete at this time (ie: not ready for prime time). It also has a number of outstanding non-technical problems (described in detail below). I believe Lesstif to be legally "at risk". It implements undocumented Motif interfaces that would require looking at a real Motif distribution's header files and namelisting a real Motif library (both of which have been discussed on the Lesstif list). Further, it is a Motif 1.x library implementation; many of those undocumented interfaces have been converted to documented interfaces in Motif 2.x. From the 2.x documentation, it is clear that only some of the _Xmt routines have been exported as Xmt_ routines, and even then, there have been interface changes -- meaning there is no legally usable public documentation of some of the interfaces that Lesstif implements. Further, Lesstif implements macros and manifest constant values that could only be implemented with knowledge of the OSF header files. Better, in my opinion, to not implement them and require code that is out of spec to be corrected (from my personal experience with a stub library and real header files built entirely from published documentation, the MOXftp code and the font handling in the "Motif toolkit" library from the book is the only publically available source code that uses promiscuous knowledge of Motif internals to subclass widgets). Admittedly, header files have been judged to be published documentation of interfaces in past court cases, despite Copyright and Non-publication notices in the header file body. One might successfully argue that library namelists and the structural information a library namelist presents in terms of module organization and call graph, and the functional call graph output from a trace of a program bot fall into the "published" category as well. But to do so will probably require a legal fund sufficient to fight a harrassment suit designed to put a potential competitor out of business. Better to adopt "clean room" techniques and document every source used to implement every interface that is implemented, and to make sure that those sources are in the form of published materials, preferrably textbooks and sample programs from publically distributed archives with at least one commercial distributor. Basically, I believe OSF is in a position to be able to shut Lesstif down if it becomes a threat to their sales. Remember that PARCPlace reimplemented a Motif library which OSF refused to allow them to certify. I would also note that the Lesstif list traffic indicates that the code is far from functional except in a small set of cases. There is no UIL support (like anyone cares about that, though), and much of the resource conversion and other code is lacking. Thats why the 0.36 version number. Finally, the LPGL relink restriction is not resolved in BSD by shared libraries because of non-interface changes to the libraries not being specifically excepted by the LGPL (which gives no regocnition to any type of shared library technology). It is possible to overcome these restrictions using an adaptation of ELF technology, but even Linux does not yet have the necessary code to avoid linking shared library data segments statically into a binary. In closing, let me state that I believe a public Motif implementation is a necessity because of standards compliance issues and that fact that all ratified standards should, in my opinion, be required to have publically available implementations to avoid the need to license code. Standards should *not* be ratified if they include proprietary technology (like Motif in specific, and CDE in general). A standard is a public trust. So I definitely agree with the Lesstif project's goals, even if I can't condone their methodology because of the corner-cutting taking them into areas which I believe to be legally risky. I certainly can't offer an alternative (at least not at this point), but I would advise caution when using Lesstif: the relink clause of the LGPL is more inmical to commercial distribution than the static linking distribution terms of OSF, without further technological enhancement to shared library implementations, and assuming no interface promiscuity (a libc or libcurses LGPL library, in fact, can not meet these requirements on a permannent basis -- and Motif is much more complicated). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 14:07:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA09288 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09279 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.ki.net (root@freebsd.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by ki.net (8.7.4/8.7.4) with ESMTP id RAA22888 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by freebsd.ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id RAA01788 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:07:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:07:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: PPP routing problem Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... I'm not sure if this is something that I've missed, or a problem in -current, or something else altogether. I'm have a modem connected to my -stable box that is used for PPP dial-up by staff. When they connect, the -stable boxes routing tables get updated properly: ki> netstat -nr Routing tables Internet: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire default 205.150.102.254 UGSc 51 2621 ed0 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 UH 1 1433 lo0 142.77.249.8 127.0.0.1 UGHS 0 0 lo0 205.150.102 link#1 UC 1 0 205.150.102.1 0:0:c0:86:44:79 UHLW 6 38310 lo0 205.150.102.200 205.150.102.1 UH 0 514 tun0 205.150.102.255 link#1 UHLW 1 423 The IP being 205.150.102.200 Unfortunately, on the -current machine, its routing table is looking like: freebsd# !net netstat -nr Routing tables Internet: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire default 205.150.102.254 UGSc 12 18 ed0 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 UH 0 0 lo0 205.150.102 link#1 UC 0 0 205.150.102.1 0:0:c0:86:44:79 UHLW 14 148758 ed0 1027 205.150.102.51 0:0:c0:b7:91:71 UHLW 1 49 lo0 205.150.102.56/32 link#1 UC 0 0 205.150.102.254 0:c0:7b:5c:91:4b UHLW 13 143 ed0 871 205.150.102.255 link#1 UHLW 1 342 freebsd# traceroute stoned.ki.net traceroute to stoned.ki.net (205.150.102.200), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets ^C freebsd# !net netstat -nr Routing tables Internet: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire default 205.150.102.254 UGSc 12 18 ed0 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 UH 0 0 lo0 205.150.102 link#1 UC 0 0 205.150.102.1 0:0:c0:86:44:79 UHLW 14 149296 ed0 943 205.150.102.51 0:0:c0:b7:91:71 UHLW 1 49 lo0 205.150.102.56/32 link#1 UC 0 0 205.150.102.200 link#1 UHLW 0 1 205.150.102.254 0:c0:7b:5c:91:4b UHLW 13 143 ed0 1189 205.150.102.255 link#1 UHLW 1 343 Now, if I delete the route and add in one that points at 205.150.102.1, traceroute works fine. I have routed -s enabled on 205.150.102.1, and routed -q on .51 and .1 has GATEWAY enabled in sysconfig. the only other thing I can think of is that my problem is with my config for PPP. I'm using 'ppp -direct ' when a user connects, with an entry that looks like: default: set device /dev/cuaa0 set speed 57600 disable lqr deny lqr disable pred1 deny pred1 adrenlin: set ifaddr 205.150.102.1 205.150.102.200/24 set timeout 600 add 0 0 HISADDR So, I figure that I'm either missing something in my ppp.conf file, or there is a problem with routed... Anyone have any ideas on this one? Thanks... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 15:20:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA14856 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14850 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA03610; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:18:54 -0700 (PDT) To: "Marty Leisner" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DOS Emulator now available for porting to FreeBSD. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:57:30 PDT." <9604101557.AA01663@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:18:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3607.829174734@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Now since you have a different dos emulator, what would be involved > to port it to linux? How should I know? :-) > Does it support DPMI? I don't believe so, no. Probably a project in there for somebody. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 15:29:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA15459 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA15451 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.mcs.com (root@Venus.mcs.com [192.160.127.92]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA19411 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:28:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: by venus.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Wed, 10 Apr 96 17:28 CDT Message-Id: Subject: -STABLE bits problem To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:28:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks, Sometime in the last two weeks, select() got broken in the kernel. I have done a "make world" on this machine, so the shared libs are up to date. Here's the consequence of running "nntplink" on this machine: Apr 10 17:27:07 Cthulu nntplink[19971]: news.xxx.com: Apr 10 17:27:07 Cthulu nntplink[19971]: news.xxx.com: select() failed (try undefining HAVE_WORKING_SELECT): Invalid argument This does *not* happen on kernels from mid-March and earlier. Any ideas? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1] | 21 Chicagoland POPs, ISDN, 28.8, much more Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ ISDN - Get it here TODAY! | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 15:56:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA17204 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from edna.bus.net (edna.bus.net [207.41.24.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17199 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by edna.bus.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA03808; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:55:34 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:55:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chuck O'Donnell" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Need help with possible fbsd bug Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Possible Bug Report: Submitted by: Chuck O'Donnell (chuck@bus.net), a FreeBSD user Hugh Redelmeier (hugh@mimosa.com), a JOVE author Symptom: In jove, when running an interactive shell in a buffer, pressing the return key repeats the command on the prompt line anywhere from 50 to 500 times. 1) run jove: $ jove 2) start up an interactive shell window within jove: ESC x shell RETURN [note: don't type the spaces] 3) issue a simple echo command in the window $ echo hi 4) observe the multiple outputs. Hypotheses: The pseudo tty driver is confused about the length of buffer contents. In particular, a write call on the pty returns 0, indicating a successful write of no characters; subsequent reads from the pty yield more characters than were written. Environment: OS: FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE Computer: Intel pentium jove version: 4.16 (4.16beta is shipped with system and fails too) shell: bash (but fails with sh and csh too) Investigation and Analysis: We used ktrace to see what was going on. Here is how we did it, using two virtual terminals: on first terminal: start jove on second terminal: find out process id of jove process (ps & grep) ktrace -i -p -t cis [my *guess* at best flags to use] on first terminal: issue jove "shell" command in shell window, issue minor command like "echo hi" on second terminal, turn off tracing: ktrace -C The result was a large ktrace.out. Here is a chunk from the middle, with commentary: The first run of lines seems to be a character-at-a-time loop, reading from the keyboard (standard in: 0) and echoing the characters to the screen (standard out: 1). The select is just to determine that the next interesting event is a keystroke, or that the screen is ready. Here is the trace of a single cycle of this loop. 212 jove CALL select(0x4,0xefbfdcec,0,0,0) 212 jove RET select 1 212 jove CALL read(0,0x38a48,0x14) 212 jove GIO fd 0 read 1 bytes "h" 212 jove RET read 1 212 jove CALL select(0x1,0xefbfdcd0,0,0,0xefbfdcc8) 212 jove RET select 0 212 jove CALL write(0x1,0x3e800,0x1) 212 jove GIO fd 1 wrote 1 bytes "h" 212 jove RET write 1 When the \r is read, the fun begins: 212 jove CALL select(0x4,0xefbfdcec,0,0,0) 212 jove RET select 1 212 jove CALL read(0,0x38a48,0x14) 212 jove GIO fd 0 read 1 bytes "\r" 212 jove RET read 1 Here JOVE writes 8 bytes to the file descriptor 3, presumably the pty feeding bash. But wait: the result is very peculiar. (It is important to note that this is the first write to the pty; it must be empty before this.) 212 jove CALL write(0x3,0x3b316,0x8) 212 jove GIO fd 3 wrote 0 bytes "" Why does it appear as if 0 bytes were written, even though jove tried to write 8??? I look forward from here for the next line describing process 212 jove. It is very far forward, past all the I/O corresponding to the multiple echo commands that bash sees. It reads [later] 212 jove RET write 0 so jove is being told that the write was successful, but 0 bytes were written! Jove only checks whether the write was successful, and doesn't pay attention to the length reported by write. Jove will not retry this write, although that would be reasonable. 257 bash GIO fd 0 read 128 bytes "echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi echo hi " 257 bash RET read 128/0x80 This is quite odd. Bash is getting 128 characters, containing multiple copies of what jove was unable to write!!! This read was issued by bash much earlier: [earlier] 257 bash CALL read(0,0x52058,0x8) << 0x80, 128 bytes Notice that the amount returned by the read was the length requested by bash. I think that a pty should return at most a line at a time, even if the read requested more. At this point, things are so very wrong we need not look farther in the trace. Is jove using the pty incorrectly? In particular, does the pty somehow need to be set up in a way different from what jove has done. Do streams modules need to be pushed? We think jove works fine on other BSD systems. It sure looks like there is a FreeBSD bug, but it might only be in ktrace/kdump. In particular, the pty write says that 0 bytes were written, but at least 128 bytes, some perhaps fictitious, are read. It is pretty clear that the 0 return is wrong, but depending on whether jove actually tried to repeat the write, the 128 bytes might be partially bogus too. Another interesting but unanalyzed observation: I tried running two kdump processes instead of one: one for bash and one for jove. The machine has crashed a twice while running i-shells, leading me to believe that maybe something is overloaded. A simple "echo something" command will complete (albeit multiple times), but a "ls" will sometimes lockup or reboot the machine. Can anyone offer any guidance here? We would appreciate some help. Thanks. Regards, Chuck O'Donnell, Hugh Redelmeier From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 15:58:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA17260 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA17254 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA01768; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:57:52 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199604102257.RAA01768@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: GNU binutils port To: craig@seabass.progroup.com (Craig Shaver) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:57:51 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199604102029.NAA15310@seabass.progroup.com> from "Craig Shaver" at Apr 10, 96 01:29:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > 2.6.3 may be "old hat", but it works. I remember being laughed at for > > sticking with 1.39 while the world was wailing and gnashing it's teeth > > over 2.2 and the grief there. If it's 2.8 before the major problems are > > fixed, I can't see us losing too much sleep 8) > > > I moved to 2.7.2 on solarais because people said 2.6.3 was buggy! What's up! > With software in general, just because a version is more recent doesn't make it less buggy. Are you talking about X86 Solaris or Sparc? It depends on the platform which version is more or less buggy. It must be a nightmare for the NetBSD team!!! > > btw, I have not tried c++ (g++) on freebsd, does it work? Are there any > problems with linking? Dynamic libraries? Compiling STL? Should I consider > FreeBSD a viable platform for applications development using c++? Motif? > c++ works, dynamic libraries (libg++) work, Motif works. Don't listen to the political trolling that has happened on Usenet. STL is still problematical, (I think) and given that you use 2.7.2 gcc/g++, you'll be trading one set of bugs for another -- guaranteed!!! Maybe we are being too conservative, maybe not??? > > Would I be better off concentrating on Linux, and waiting for FreeBSD to > catch up? > Hmmm... Only you can decide that. John dyson@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 17:26:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA21206 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21189 Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0u7ACW-0004J3C; Wed, 10 Apr 96 17:25 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:25:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: Terry Lambert cc: lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: <199604102044.NAA02340@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I haven't attached your comments on Lesstif, due to space constraints, but let me say that you made some excellent points and I agree with you completely on this topic. Motif is the closest thing we have to a standard in the wacky world of X-Windows, and it offers several compelling features: It is reasonably fast, looks professional, has a consistent style guide that follows IBM's CUA guidelines (i.e. it is similar to Windows and OS/2), and interoperates well with other Motif programs (e.g. Drag and Drop). Also, there are some excellent GUI builder tools that allow a complete user interface to be generated in literally a matter of hours (instant UI, just add callbacks!). In particular, I have been doing some significant work with a GUI builder called X-Designer (it costs $3500 so it is definitely not for personal use), which, like many of its competitors, generates standard Motif code (no proprietary libraries) that can be transferred to ANY computer with Motif, including FreeBSD, and compiled with no trouble whatsoever, whether or not X-Designer itself has been ported to that machine. At any rate, Motif is important, and I am willing to pay for it for my own projects, because of the above reasons. I feel that every X program should be using Motif, if licensing wasn't an issue, in order to assure a consistent user interface (a la CDE) with good interoperability. With shared libraries, the size of Motif isn't a big issue, because there is only one copy in RAM. However, Motif is difficult to integrate as a component of an OS like FreeBSD, because of its commercial status, so it would only be justified in, perhaps a special CD-ROM edition, never in the main source tree (which, esp. for installation purposes, it is perhaps most needed!). So, for commercial use, I would stick with Motif, for free OS's, I would LOVE to see something like Lesstif, but not if it succumbs to the very legal entanglements (that Terry mentioned) that it was trying to avoid! As an aside, a company called ARDI has made a Macintosh emulator (it has been mentioned once or twice on this list in the past) called Executor, written *entirely* with clean room techniques, which requires neither ROMs nor MacOS, and supports nearly all of System 6 and much of System 7. This is a commercial effort (as is the Windows API emulator TWIN), but I would argue that either one of these projects (especially Executor) is at least as difficult as writing a Motif clone (especially when the "meat" of Motif, the Xt Intrinsics, is free!). So, I wish the Lesstif people the best of luck, but if, as Terry mentions, there are legal entanglements, I would not recommend it be placed as a port or package any time soon. ---Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 18:09:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA23539 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rogerswave.ca (mail.rogerswave.ca [198.231.117.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA23533 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (wong.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by rogerswave.ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA05432; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:55:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Wong To: Terry Lambert cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604100126.SAA06479@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > AST's are easy. It's the stacks they need to run while your program > is already using your only stack that are annoying. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ why? you can allocate space for each and every process ( thread ) that want to handle AST. in fact it can be on another CPU. > > Queued event delivery shouldn't have any impact on how RT the system AST are delived to those process that registered to handle a given interrept. in a user space. > is or isn't (maybe I just can't see what you mean...). Message > passing does not a R.T. system make, in my book... > well, I was just a bite vague on this, I meant besides the regular textbook schedule on R.T. pre-emptive,fixed priority etc..., this even I can do even when I am awake. but for for applications, you want to have a process run on a specific CPU alone wait for A/D conversion complate, so that the process can strobe the data in in a _determinestic_ manner. I am not good in drawing, otherwise, I can show you the exact timing in this. anyway, in my book, exact timing is R.T. Ken From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 18:27:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA24401 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maui.com (langfod@waena.mrtc.maui.com [199.4.33.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA24395 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from langfod@localhost) by maui.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id PAA14087 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:27:08 -1000 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by maui.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id PAA13775 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:17:31 -1000 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay7.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQakxh17779; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id DAA25776 for firewalls-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 03:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpgate.saa-cons.co.uk (haddock.demon.co.uk [158.152.16.191]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id DAA25742 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 03:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haddock.saa-cons.co.uk by smtpgate.saa-cons.co.uk with SMTP (5.65/1.3-eef) id AA03210; Wed, 10 Apr 96 11:58:53 +0100 Received: by haddock.saa-cons.co.uk (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/5.00) id AA21759; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:58:53 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:58:52 +0100 (BST) From: Dave Roberts To: Firewalls Mailing List Subject: Solaris2.5 and BSD* - Facts Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk /* * This is actually a resend, but I never saw the original on the list, * and it was a day when our ISP appeared to have trans-atlantic problems. * Sorry to anyone who's seen it already. */ The last thing I want to do is start an O/S flame war, I think we've had far too many of those already. What I am looking for are bare honest facts. I need to put in a bastion host to handle the proxying, DNS stuff, etc. I would like to put this onto a pee-cee running BSD (either FreeBSD or BSDOS2.0). However, someone above me in the chain of things wants me to use a SparcServer running Solaris 2.5. I claimed that BSD was better suited for the purpose, and he said prove it. AFAIK, the facts stand as follows (please corrent me if I am wrong). BSD offers the immutable flag - Solaris does not. BSD gives me source code - Solaris does not. BSD allows me to compile stuff (ls etc) with static libs - Solaris does not (if I remember a thread a while ago). That's all I can think of. Please don't mail back with arguments about having source code or not, or static libraries vs dynamic, think those have been beaten to death :) What I would like are facts from people that have experience with both systems, or something that people with one of those systems feel is a big bonus, or a big headache. I'm assuming all the tools I want compile equally well on both systems (whatever kind of libs are used). ObOffTopic: anyone know a tool to to base64 decoding? Some of my users get their mail sent to ccMail, and their gateway doesn't understand MIME. A DOS util to do with would be great (I can't convert *everyone* to Unix and Pine! ;) Thanks in advance, Dave. -- Dave Roberts, Unix Systems Administrator, SAA Consultants Ltd, Plymouth, UK. "smap has the advantage [over bare sendmail] that it was written by somone who is almost certifiably paranoid" - Brent Chapman, London, 19 Oct 95. -=[ For PGP 2.6.3i public key, send mail with subject of "get pgp" ]=- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 18:41:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA25494 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25486 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA06208; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:36:24 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199604110636.BAA06208@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI). To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:36:24 -0500 (EST) Cc: se@ZPR.Uni-Koeln.DE, bde@zeta.org.au, dutchman@spase.nl, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604101308.IAA00947@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Apr 10, 96 08:08:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk More disk/SCSI latency figures: ASUS P5-133 w/64MB (Triton) AHA3940 Quantum Atlas 2GB Command overhead is 428 usec (time_4096 = 825, time_8192 = 1223) transfer speed is 1.03074e+07 bytes/sec Quantum Atlas 4GB Command overhead is 461 usec (time_4096 = 884, time_8192 = 1308) transfer speed is 9.66943e+06 bytes/sec From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 18:52:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA26226 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA26207 Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA01402; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:51:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:51:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: Jake Hamby cc: Terry Lambert , lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Speaking about motif, is there anyway to have the same X environment as in what is used on SUNOS 5.3 (Solaris) on SUN Sparc5's and what is used on HP Apollo Workstations with the same desktop under FreeBSD? Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 19:53:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA00402 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.via.net (ns.via.net [140.174.204.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00240 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from joe@localhost) by ns.via.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA00583 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:51:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:51:29 -0700 From: Joe McGuckin Message-Id: <199604110251.TAA00583@ns.via.net> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: TCP idle timeout Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Someone suggested to me that lowering the TCP idle timeout value might help my overloaded web server. I notice that most of the connections to the httpd processes are waiting or dying. Does this make sense? How would I do this? Thanks, Joe From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 22:16:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA07264 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from metronet.com (root@mail.metronet.com [192.245.137.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07258 Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.metronet.com (dal59.metronet.com) by metronet.com with SMTP id AA13559 (5.67a/IDA1.5hp); Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:15:49 -0500 Received: (from rick@localhost) by localhost.metronet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA00878; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:12:16 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:12:08 -0500 (CDT) From: rbarton X-Sender: rick@localhost To: Jake Hamby Cc: Terry Lambert , lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Since we're on the subject of GUIs... any word on Fresco? Is there anybody working or considering this? rick | o________________________|________________________o \/ o \/ any landing you can walk \___/ away from is a good one / | \ rbarton@metronet.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 22:55:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA09430 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [198.81.209.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA09424 Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00320; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:52:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: rbarton cc: Terry Lambert , lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, rbarton wrote: > > Since we're on the subject of GUIs... any word on Fresco? Is there > anybody working or considering this? > > rick I'm perfectly happy with Motif, using the Doug Young method of wrapping an entire widget tree into a C++ class, rather than the thin-wrapper approach of encapsulating every widget. I think that objects should correspond to real-world components of the program, rather than abstracting every single widget to be a separate class. This is one of the primary objections people have to Microsoft's MFC toolkit for Windows, although it does encapsulate some useful high-level services as well. As for Fresco, I was under the impression that it was an experimental component of X11R6, similar to LBX (the low-bandwidth X extension I found practically unusable). I'm not objecting to the idea of writing a new widget toolkit based on C++, but Motif seems to have the momentum and support to make it the best choice, and although it is C-based, complaining about this is like complaining about why the kernel or the entire libc isn't rewritten in C++! C is efficient, and it is better to concentrate on making your own programs object-oriented, rather than worrying about whether or not every single library you call is. Personally, if I wanted to move away from Motif, but still use X and Unix, I would choose Java (which, in the Unix implementation, is itself based on Motif). Java is OOP, and cross-platform too, and in theory, could be easily integrated with C++ programs in the manner of TCL/Tk (although it isn't common practice, but it is how Java's standard classes are bound to Motif and other standard libraries). ---Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 23:04:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA10092 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [198.81.209.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA10078 Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA00323; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:01:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:01:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Richard Chang cc: Terry Lambert , lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Richard Chang wrote: > Speaking about motif, is there anyway to have the same X > environment as in what is used on SUNOS 5.3 (Solaris) on SUN Sparc5's and > what is used on HP Apollo Workstations with the same desktop under FreeBSD? > > Richard Before Solaris 2.4, the Openwindows environment supplied with Solaris (and SunOS) was completely OPEN LOOK oriented, with that widget set. Personally, I find OPEN LOOK ugly and non-intuitive, but I like a few of the OPEN LOOK "Deskset" tools, such as Perfmeter, and the public domain program Workman. Starting with Solaris 2.4, Sun included the Motif libraries and header files, but it took until Solaris 2.5 to receive the Motif window manager, some useful Motif tools, and the Motif man pages, as part of the Common Desktop Environment (which is on a separate CD-ROM). I believe HP workstations use Motif (and have long before Sun adopted it), so I suspect this is what you're referring to. Under FreeBSD, you can get the OPEN LOOK Xview toolkit for free (it is in the ports collection), and it comes with Clock, the Open look window manager, command tool, and you can compile Workman (another port) with it. You don't get any of the other Deskset tools you might be used to from SunOS/Solaris however (mailtool, perfmeter, etc.). You'll have to buy Solaris/X86 if you want that. As for Motif (which I think you were referring to), a binary distribution costs about $150, and FreeBSD versions are available from several sources, such as SWiM. Sorry, I don't have any contact information for them.. Anyway, it looks like Common Desktop Environment (extended Motif 1.2 plus some goodies in a more integrated desktop environment) will be available soon for FreeBSD too. Oh, and don't forget, if you actually have a Sun or HP workstation available, you can log in to it from your FreeBSD box, setenv DISPLAY back to your computer, and run any program available for those machines on your X server. Have fun! ---Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 10 23:17:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA12786 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA12769 Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA25599; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:17:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:16:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: Jake Hamby cc: Terry Lambert , lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Richard Chang wrote: > > > Speaking about motif, is there anyway to have the same X > > environment as in what is used on SUNOS 5.3 (Solaris) on SUN Sparc5's and > > what is used on HP Apollo Workstations with the same desktop under FreeBSD? > > Before Solaris 2.4, the Openwindows environment supplied with Solaris (and > SunOS) was completely OPEN LOOK oriented, with that widget set. > Personally, I find OPEN LOOK ugly and non-intuitive, but I like a few of > the OPEN LOOK "Deskset" tools, such as Perfmeter, and the public domain > program Workman. > > Starting with Solaris 2.4, Sun included the Motif libraries and header > files, but it took until Solaris 2.5 to receive the Motif window > manager, some useful Motif tools, and the Motif man pages, as part of the > Common Desktop Environment (which is on a separate CD-ROM). I believe HP > workstations use Motif (and have long before Sun adopted it), so I suspect > this is what you're referring to. I think it might be the motif one since it has that box on the bottom of the screen. > Under FreeBSD, you can get the OPEN LOOK Xview toolkit for free (it is in > the ports collection), and it comes with Clock, the Open look window > manager, command tool, and you can compile Workman (another port) with it. > You don't get any of the other Deskset tools you might be used to from > SunOS/Solaris however (mailtool, perfmeter, etc.). You'll have to buy > Solaris/X86 if you want that. Will the OPEN LOOK Xview toolkit need a certain windows manager or will fvwm be the closest to motif? > As for Motif (which I think you were referring to), a binary > distribution costs about $150, and FreeBSD versions are available from > several sources, such as SWiM. Sorry, I don't have any contact > information for them.. Anyway, it looks like Common Desktop Environment > (extended Motif 1.2 plus some goodies in a more integrated desktop > environment) will be available soon for FreeBSD too. Sounds good. > Oh, and don't forget, if you actually have a Sun or HP workstation > available, you can log in to it from your FreeBSD box, setenv DISPLAY > back to your computer, and run any program available for those > machines on your X server. Have fun! I know but it's slow since it constantly has to redraw the entire screen. Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 00:46:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA19639 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA19633 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA05203; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:44:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199604110744.AAA05203@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Richard Chang cc: ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:16:59 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:44:39 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Richard Chang said: > Will the OPEN LOOK Xview toolkit need a certain windows manager or > will fvwm be the closest to motif? olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 01:17:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA22648 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA22642 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id SAA04364 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:16:53 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199604110816.SAA04364@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br (Lenzi Sergio) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:16:52 +1000 (EST) Cc: ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Lenzi, Sergio" at Apr 10, 96 10:24:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Lenzi, Sergio writes: > I have uploaded (in pub/FreeBSD/incoming) a package (lesstif.tgz) that is > a motif compatible window manager (with includes and libXm.a/libXm.so.0.36) Which you should have mentioned is a binary-only package compiled for -current and will not work with -stable because of the dependency on libc.so.3.0 Full sources are available from .. http://www.hungry.com:8000/products/lesstif/lesstif.html > I am using mwm program compiled within and seems to work OK. It does indeed (:-)) with some caveats as mentioned in the READMEs along with the source. It's not quite yet up to full M*tif-compatible development, however, which is what I was looking for :-( michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 01:21:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA23074 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA23057 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA27295 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:20:52 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA12114 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:20:51 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA04287 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:11:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604110811.KAA04287@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:11:51 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199604101401.KAA02041@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Apr 10, 96 10:01:46 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > You just don't get it. The "support that is (was) there" consisted > of dumping a raw keymap into the server overwriting the one that's > compiled in. That "support" is still there and you'll get it if you > use -xkb or XkbDisable. But XKB doesn't work take raw keymaps. If > you had read any of the other stuff I've posted on this topic then > you would have understood this. XKB takes names. Sun So at least the original keymaps (instead of the binary crap that could be sucked via the SysV ioctl) should be enough to create a modified Xkb map, are they? For syscons, they seem to always contain a full keymap description like: 000 nop nop nop nop nop nop nop nop O 001 esc esc esc esc esc esc esc esc O 002 '1' '!' nop nop '1' '!' nop nop O 003 '2' '"' nop nop 253 253 nop nop O 004 '3' 245 nop nop 252 252 nop nop O ... For pcvt, they just ``declare the exceptions'' over the standard (US-ASCII) map, for example my own German entry: de-prog|germany-prog|programmer's mapping for german keyboard:\ :K27=]:S27=}:A27=\374:C27=\334:\ :K40=\\:S40=|:A40=\366:C40=\326:\ :K41=[:S41={:A41=\344:C41=\304:\ :K126=\032:C126=\003:\ :tc=de: ... > and Digital boxes return country codes that can easily be translated > to names. FreeBSD needs an interface that returns names, not > keymaps. Complain to the fathers of SysV, that's where we have stolen the interface for what is currently in syscons and pcvt. pcvt only did this to avoid bloating the Xserver by yet another incompatible way of retrieving the keyboard mapping. (For pcvt, this even means the ISO-8859-1 mapping has to be converted back to IBM437 crap, before it is being passed up to the Xserver, which will in turn convert it into ISO-8859-1. Ick.) > In the mean time, editing your XF86Config file is the solution. > Is that such a difficult concept? Yes. It's unacceptable. The IMHO only practical way is to provide an upgrade tool that can create Xkb maps from whatever input data we already have. (This is in no way to blame you for this, but that doesn't make your attitude ``Use vi to edit your XF86Config'' more acceptable for our users.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 01:50:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA25820 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA25798 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA06413; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:50:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:50:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: <199604110744.AAA05203@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > >>> Richard Chang said: > > Will the OPEN LOOK Xview toolkit need a certain windows manager or > > will fvwm be the closest to motif? > olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. > > Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. I ran FreeBSD since 1.0GAMMA but does olvwm look like motif/fvwm in any way since both of these allow hitting alt-F7/F8(fvwm) and alt-tab(motif) to go to the next window.... What window manager does XFree86 come with? Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 02:16:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA27983 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU [138.237.128.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA27978 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from riogrande.cs.tcu.edu (TCUCS6.CS.TCU.EDU) by ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #15868) id <01I3EHI84SZ40008FK@ALPHA.IS.TCU.EDU>; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:16:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sabine.cs.tcu.edu by riogrande.cs.tcu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27907; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:16:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: by sabine.cs.tcu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26592; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:16:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:16:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Tam Weng Seng Subject: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... In-reply-to: <199604101628.BAA24172@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> To: Michael Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: tam@riogrande.cs.tcu.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I am really new at this and would like to ask 2 questions. 1. What does the from BSDI translate into for FreeBSD ??? Is is ???? Or is that something added in current ???? 2. Has anybody gotten it to compile and work ??? Finally, I realize that it would probably be better if I run current ... but as the semester draws to an end here at school, crunch period is getting worse and worse ... so I will probably not be able to get a copy of current until the summer ... Till summer :) thanks, tam. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 02:27:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA28425 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA28420 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA29454; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:25:39 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604110955.TAA29454@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: tam@riogrande.cs.tcu.edu Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:25:39 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tam Weng Seng" at Apr 11, 96 04:16:29 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tam Weng Seng stands accused of saying: > > 1. What does the from BSDI translate into for > FreeBSD ??? Is is ???? Or is that something > added in current ???? It appears to be a historic wart. See my patches as previously referred. > 2. Has anybody gotten it to compile and work ??? Yes and no, in that order. There are some kernel interaction problems that aren't yet resolved, and until we've got this sorted out, the remainder is effectively impossible to test. In the first instance, -current will probably be required to use it, with perhaps some patches available to update -stable, but I can't see -stable adding this sort of (dangerous) support for some time. > tam. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 03:02:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA29995 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA29990 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA23193; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:59:41 +0200 Message-Id: <199604110959.LAA23193@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:59:41 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: tam@riogrande.cs.tcu.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199604110955.TAA29454@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 11, 96 07:25:39 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael Smith who wrote: > > Tam Weng Seng stands accused of saying: > It appears to be a historic wart. See my patches as previously referred. > > > 2. Has anybody gotten it to compile and work ??? > > Yes and no, in that order. There are some kernel interaction problems > that aren't yet resolved, and until we've got this sorted out, the > remainder is effectively impossible to test. Ahem, it shouldn't be much trouble in getting these userlevel things going, the main difficulty is to get VM86 support into the kernel, which is a totally different matter (which has been looked at by various people, me including). It is also imperative that the VM86 support be done in a way so it can be used for other things,, or this will just be another bloat to the system... > In the first instance, -current will probably be required to use it, with > perhaps some patches available to update -stable, but I can't see -stable > adding this sort of (dangerous) support for some time. This has no chance of getting into -stable as I see it... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 03:18:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA01063 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.64.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA01033 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA03208; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604111017.DAA03208@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU CC: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Richard Chang on Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:50:00 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * > olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. * > * > Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. * * I ran FreeBSD since 1.0GAMMA but does olvwm look like motif/fvwm * in any way since both of these allow hitting alt-F7/F8(fvwm) and * alt-tab(motif) to go to the next window.... What window manager does * XFree86 come with? Guys, please look at the ports collection. Xview toolkit and olvwm are both in there and have been working fine for quite some time. By the way, if you want a mwm lookalike, go for fvwm, and for an (HP) vuewm lookalike, ctwm. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 03:45:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA02702 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (root@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us [198.82.200.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA02685 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kmitch@localhost) by phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA22807; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:45:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Keith Mitchell Message-Id: <199604111045.GAA22807@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Subject: Intermittant DAT Drive Error To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Cc: scsi@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Every once in a while (about once a week usually), my nightly backup fails in the middle with the following errors: st0(ahc0:6:0): Target Busy st0(ahc0:6:0): Target Busy st0(ahc0:6:0): Target Busy st0(ahc0:6:0): Target Busy st0(ahc0:6:0): Target Busy st0(ahc0:6:0): Target Busy In the dmesg output (I noticed this this time, but I don't know if this happened in the past as well) are a bunch of: file: table is full right before the Target Busy errors. This is a Conner CTD8000 (OEM name) or CP4326NP (retail name). It is a DDS-2 capable drive, and identifies itself as: "ARCHIVE Python 28388-XXX 5.28" I can't link this to any particular time frame or a particular set of tapes. I am running Current from March 30, and am using amanda to perform the backups. Any Ideas? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 03:59:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA03501 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA03496 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA07640; Thu, 11 Apr 96 06:58:35 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id GAA04390; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:58:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199604111058.GAA04390@exalt.x.org> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:11:51 EST. <199604110811.KAA04287@uriah.heep.sax.de> Organization: X Consortium Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:58:33 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > In the mean time, editing your XF86Config file is the solution. > > Is that such a difficult concept? > > Yes. It's unacceptable. Humbug. You're just being stubborn. If you're going to assert that trivial config file edits are unacceptable then you're opening the door for a whole new class of complaints. For example, the ldconfig in /etc/rc is wrong for me, and I had to edit it -- unacceptable. The gateway config in /etc/sysconfig is wrong for me and I had to edit it -- unacceptable. The system didn't have me in /etc/passwd when I loaded it, and I had to edit it -- unacceptable. Is that what you want? No, I didn't think so. >The IMHO only practical way is to provide an > upgrade tool that can create Xkb maps from whatever input data we > already have. XKB has a tool that creates keymaps from input data. The tool is portable across all platforms that X runs on, and the input data is extensible. I think you should learn how to use the tools that exist before telling me that more tools need to be written. But if you want to stick to that line, feel free to write a new tool. > (This is in no way to blame you for this, but that > doesn't make your attitude ``Use vi to edit your XF86Config'' more > acceptable for our users.) I'm one of your users, I don't find it unacceptable. I think you need to find a different crusade. I don't buy this crap about editing your XF86Config being too hard. Most people have to edit it anyway after they get their modelines figured out anyway. One more edit for the keyboard isn't going to hurt them. XKB is now part of the X Consortium implementation. If you want to stick your head in the sand, use -xkb or XkbDisable. I suppose you're going to tell me that the edits to do this are unacceptable too, eh? If you don't want to do even that then stick with R6. -- Kaleb "getting grumpier" KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 04:09:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA04736 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA04731 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA07690; Thu, 11 Apr 96 07:09:18 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id HAA04410; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:09:18 -0400 Message-Id: <199604111109.HAA04410@exalt.x.org> To: Jake Hamby Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: FUD fighters, was Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:52:23 EST. Organization: X Consortium Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:09:17 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As for Fresco, I was under the impression that it was an experimental > component of X11R6, similar to LBX (the low-bandwidth X extension I found > practically unusable). Let's not go spreading disinformation. Both Fresco and LBX in R6 were "work-in-progress", not "experimental." At no time were either advertised as being usable for anything other than for further development. Fresco and LBX are still under development, and LBX is now at a state where it's usable. In fact I use it all the time, including right now as I compose this reply. Someday Fresco may be back in an X Consortium release, but in the mean time it's being developed as a separate release. LBX will be in the next X Consortium release under a different name. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY X Consortium From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 04:36:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA05688 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA05633 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id VAA11589 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:35:20 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199604111135.VAA11589@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: -STABLE bits problem To: karl@mcs.com (Karl Denninger MCSNet) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:35:18 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, stable@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" at Apr 10, 96 05:28:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Karl Denninger, MCSNet writes: > Sometime in the last two weeks, select() got broken in the kernel. I see a similar, possibly related problem here .. it breaks nnrpd with shared-active and harvest's cached does this when asked to ftp something larger than the configured 4 meg cached-file maximum .. load averages: 1.64, 1.28, 0.84 21:32:49 75 processes: 2 running, 73 sleeping Cpu states: 5.0% user, 37.3% nice, 56.2% system, 1.5% interrupt, 0.0% idle Mem: 49M Active, 8996K Wired, 2876K Cache, 6751K Buf, 1456K Free Swap: 143M Total, 25M Used, 118M Free, 17% Inuse PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 229 www 105 4 16M 11M RUN 20:42 76.60% 76.60% cached This is hurting :-( michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 04:47:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA06094 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA06088 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA24011; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:39:18 +0200 Message-Id: <199604111139.NAA24011@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:39:18 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604111058.GAA04390@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Apr 11, 96 06:58:33 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Kaleb S. KEITHLEY who wrote: > > > > In the mean time, editing your XF86Config file is the solution. > > > Is that such a difficult concept? > > > > Yes. It's unacceptable. > > Humbug. You're just being stubborn. If you're going to assert that > trivial config file edits are unacceptable then you're opening the > door for a whole new class of complaints. For example, the ldconfig > in /etc/rc is wrong for me, and I had to edit it -- unacceptable. > The gateway config in /etc/sysconfig is wrong for me and I had to > edit it -- unacceptable. The system didn't have me in /etc/passwd > when I loaded it, and I had to edit it -- unacceptable. Is that what > you want? No, I didn't think so. This is getting rediculous, what we are trying to communicate is that the user shouldn't know about different cryptic options modelines and whatnot in order to run X. Xinside has done a little menubased tool for this, that is intuitive and easy to use, THAT is what you are up against not our stubbornness. I see absolutely NO reason why the user should be bothered with whats in Xconfig, its hackers meat not user stuff, period. AS for the keyboard layout, that is ONE line in the tool whith a picklist of the available languages, thats it, and it'll work on ALL systems, and its damn easy to explain to the end user. > XKB is now part of the X Consortium implementation. If you want to > stick your head in the sand, use -xkb or XkbDisable. I suppose you're > going to tell me that the edits to do this are unacceptable too, eh? > If you don't want to do even that then stick with R6. I think I'll stick with my Xinside server, thankyou.. > Kaleb "getting grumpier" KEITHLEY Thats not even remotely what I feel.... Could we get back to work now, please... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 04:54:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA06510 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA06505 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA29940; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:52:53 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604111222.VAA29940@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: sos@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:52:53 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, tam@riogrande.cs.tcu.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199604110959.LAA23193@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.ORG" at Apr 11, 96 11:59:41 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.ORG stands accused of saying: > > > > Yes and no, in that order. There are some kernel interaction problems > > that aren't yet resolved, and until we've got this sorted out, the > > remainder is effectively impossible to test. > > Ahem, it shouldn't be much trouble in getting these userlevel things > going, the main difficulty is to get VM86 support into the kernel, > which is a totally different matter (which has been looked at by > various people, me including). It is also imperative that the VM86 > support be done in a way so it can be used for other things,, or > this will just be another bloat to the system... Well, if you're in a position to see what CMH did to the NetBSD vm86() code to shim it to doscmd and then bring their vm86 code over, please do. Meanwhile it's worth noting that BSDI appear to have bent over backwards to avoid using vm86() to implement this, for reasons not yet clear. > This has no chance of getting into -stable as I see it... Hmm, meant to imply 2.2-stable, certainly not 2.1! > Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 05:00:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA06772 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 05:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.pu.ru (gw.pu.ru [193.124.85.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA06735 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (root@localhost) by gw.pu.ru (8.6.10/8.6.6) with UUCP id PAA14861 for freebsd.org!hackers; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:51:25 +0400 Organization: SPb State University Received: (from root@localhost) by localhost (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA01496; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:26:25 +0400 From: Alexey Pialkin Message-Id: <199604111126.PAA01496@localhost> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: riogrande.cs.tcu.edu!tam@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:26:25 +0000 (WET DST) Cc: atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, FreeBSD.ORG!hackers@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru In-Reply-To: from "Tam Weng Seng" at Apr 11, 96 04:16:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1. What does the from BSDI translate into for > FreeBSD ??? Is is ???? Or is that something > added in current ???? It's nothing :) get patches from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au/pub/doscmd/ > 2. Has anybody gotten it to compile and work ??? I'v compiled it. But can't run in full size because of missing some needable VM86 kernel support.. -- /====================================U _a' /( / Alexey Pialkin N ~~ _}\ \( - / Internet: root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru I \(,_(,\\ / FidoNet: 2:5030/247 X ._>, _>,``==> From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 05:03:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA07070 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 05:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.pu.ru (gw.pu.ru [193.124.85.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA07044 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 05:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (root@localhost) by gw.pu.ru (8.6.10/8.6.6) with UUCP id PAA14858 for freebsd.org!hackers; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:51:23 +0400 Organization: SPb State University Received: (from root@localhost) by localhost (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA01473; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:20:21 +0400 From: Alexey Pialkin Message-Id: <199604111120.PAA01473@localhost> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: FreeBSD.ORG!sos@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:20:20 +0000 (WET DST) Cc: atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, riogrande.cs.tcu.edu!tam@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, FreeBSD.ORG!hackers@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru In-Reply-To: <199604110959.LAA23193@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.ORG" at Apr 11, 96 11:59:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Tam Weng Seng stands accused of saying: > > It appears to be a historic wart. See my patches as previously referred. > > > > > 2. Has anybody gotten it to compile and work ??? > > > > Yes and no, in that order. There are some kernel interaction problems > > that aren't yet resolved, and until we've got this sorted out, the > > remainder is effectively impossible to test. > > Ahem, it shouldn't be much trouble in getting these userlevel things > going, the main difficulty is to get VM86 support into the kernel, > which is a totally different matter (which has been looked at by > various people, me including). It is also imperative that the VM86 > support be done in a way so it can be used for other things,, or > this will just be another bloat to the system... For what else you are going to use VM86 ? The main & sole purpose of it is 8086 emulation => DOS emulation. P.S. win95 is a worse example of VM86 using ........ -- /====================================U _a' /( / Alexey Pialkin N ~~ _}\ \( - / Internet: root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru I \(,_(,\\ / FidoNet: 2:5030/247 X ._>, _>,``==> From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 05:11:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA07415 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 05:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA07409 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 05:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA08030; Thu, 11 Apr 96 08:11:03 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id IAA04447; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:10:59 -0400 Message-Id: <199604111210.IAA04447@exalt.x.org> To: sos@FreeBSD.org Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:39:18 EST. <199604111139.NAA24011@ra.dkuug.dk> Organization: X Consortium Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:10:59 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In reply to Kaleb S. KEITHLEY who wrote: > > > > > > In the mean time, editing your XF86Config file is the solution. > > > > Is that such a difficult concept? > > > > > > Yes. It's unacceptable. > > > > Humbug. You're just being stubborn. If you're going to assert that > > trivial config file edits are unacceptable then you're opening the > > door for a whole new class of complaints. For example, the ldconfig > > in /etc/rc is wrong for me, and I had to edit it -- unacceptable. > > The gateway config in /etc/sysconfig is wrong for me and I had to > > edit it -- unacceptable. The system didn't have me in /etc/passwd > > when I loaded it, and I had to edit it -- unacceptable. Is that what > > you want? No, I didn't think so. > > > This is getting rediculous, what we are trying to communicate is > that the user shouldn't know about different cryptic options modelines > and whatnot in order to run X. As opposed to knowing cryptic options, commands, and whatnot in /etc/* in order to run UNIX? > Xinside has done a little menubased > tool for this, that is intuitive and easy to use, THAT is what you > are up against not our stubbornness. Get off your high horse. xf86config that does exactly that. > I see absolutely NO reason why > the user should be bothered with whats in Xconfig, its hackers meat > not user stuff, period. I see absolutely NO reason why the user should be bothered with what's in /etc/*, it's hacker's meat, not user stuff, period. > AS for the keyboard layout, that is ONE > line in the tool whith a picklist of the available languages, thats > it, and it'll work on ALL systems, and its damn easy to explain > to the end user. Yeah, it's all in xf86config. > > XKB is now part of the X Consortium implementation. If you want to > > stick your head in the sand, use -xkb or XkbDisable. I suppose you're > > going to tell me that the edits to do this are unacceptable too, eh? > > If you don't want to do even that then stick with R6. > > I think I'll stick with my Xinside server, thankyou.. Good for you. > > > Kaleb "getting grumpier" KEITHLEY > > Thats not even remotely what I feel.... I sense you're holding something back. C'mon, tell us how you really feel. > Could we get back to work now, please... As you like. -- Kaleb "Yes, I am a supreme asshole, deal with it!" KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 06:21:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA11440 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA11431 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id PAA13337; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:21:07 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA14965; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:21:06 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA05057; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:17:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604111317.PAA05057@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Solaris2.5 and BSD* - Facts To: djr@saa-cons.co.uk (Dave Roberts) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:17:21 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: Firewalls@GreatCircle.COM, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) In-Reply-To: from "Dave Roberts" at Apr 10, 96 11:58:52 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Dave Roberts wrote: > AFAIK, the facts stand as follows (please corrent me if I am wrong). > BSD offers the immutable flag - Solaris does not. > BSD gives me source code - Solaris does not. > BSD allows me to compile stuff (ls etc) with static libs - Solaris does > not (if I remember a thread a while ago). > > That's all I can think of. Please don't mail back with arguments about > having source code or not, or static libraries vs dynamic, think those > have been beaten to death :) Sorry for bothering you again with the ``there's source code'' argument. After listening to a talk about firewalls at the last GUUG (German Unix Users Group) Sprint Meeting, i realized that kernel source is also interesting to have. You can remove all the security related ``extras'' in the kernel (IP forwarding, IP source routing, log connection attempts, ...) if you've got the source. And yes, _remove_, with vi in the source. This cannot be enabled again via an MIB variable. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 06:25:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA11719 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haywire.DIALix.COM (root@haywire.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA11683 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news@localhost) by haywire.DIALix.COM (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA20260 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:24:34 +0800 (WST) X-Authentication-Warning: haywire.DIALix.COM: news set sender to usenet-request@haywire.dialix.com using -f Received: from GATEWAY by haywire.DIALix.COM with netnews for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (problems to: usenet@haywire.dialix.com) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:18:12 GMT From: mark@seeware.DIALix.oz.au (Mark Hannon) Message-ID: Organization: Private FreeBSD site References: <199604082132.PAA27236@rover.village.org> Subject: Re: Odd IDE problem???? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199604082132.PAA27236@rover.village.org>, imp@village.org (Warner Losh) writes: >I have a friend who has a Packard Bell machine. This has a IDE >controller built into the motherboard. When I try to boot FreeBSD >2.1R GENERIC on this, I get the following error messages: > >wd0: interrupt timeout: >wd0: status 58 error 0 >wd0: interrupt timeout: >wd0: status 50 error 1 > > >Smells like a hardware failure to me. I thought I'd double check here >to make sure before I suggested new hardware. > >Has anybody seen this before? > I had a lot of hard-disk problems recently when upgrading to a new motherboard. There seemed to be two different problems, a faulty harddisk (which I replaced) and then trying to run the onboard IDE too fast - by this I mean I was running the PCI bus at 40Mhz and getting similar types of errors, by turning it back down to 20Mhz the problems went away. /mark -- +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ | Mark Hannon,| FreeBSD - Free Unix for your PC| mark@seeware.DIALix.oz.au| | Melbourne, | PGP key available by fingering | epamha@epa.ericsson.se | | Australia | seeware@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au | | +-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 06:27:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA11791 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA11786 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id GAA07644 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:26:55 -0700 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id PAA13325; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:20:56 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA14963; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:20:55 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA05026; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:11:13 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604111311.PAA05026@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: PPP routing problem To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:11:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at Apr 10, 96 05:07:50 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > freebsd# traceroute stoned.ki.net > traceroute to stoned.ki.net (205.150.102.200), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets > ^C > freebsd# !net > netstat -nr > Routing tables ... > 205.150.102.200 link#1 UHLW 0 1 That's a stale ARP entry. (Tried to use ARP for resolving the address, but didn't succeed.) IMHO, the ARP attempts should be aborted if an interface is being established on this address later. Don't use proxyarp. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 06:55:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA12876 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA12870 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:55:56 -0700 (PDT) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA09318; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:45:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA16309; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:45:26 +0200 Message-Id: <9604111345.AA16309@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: Sergio de Almeida lenzi Cc: hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com In-Reply-To: Message from Sergio de Almeida lenzi of Wed, 10 Apr 96 13:18:07 -0000. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: Willows Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 15:45:26 +0200 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk lenzi@bsi.com.br writes: > Hello all, > > Can someone tell me please what is the status of the twin API for FreeBSD? > > the interpreted version works (slow), the native version (should be faster) is still under construction. No idea when it'll be finished. --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 07:13:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA13664 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA13659 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA00958; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:12:00 -0600 Message-Id: <199604111412.IAA00958@rover.village.org> To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. Cc: lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br (Lenzi, Sergio), ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:44:27 PDT Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:12:00 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : Remember that PARCPlace reimplemented a Motif library which OSF refused : to allow them to certify. The OI group at Solbourne did this work, they were bought by ParcPlace and later sold to Openware. OSF didn't have a procedure to certify only the look and feel of a toolkit. All of their certification process was geared at the API level and they told us they had no plans to change that policy. I'm convinced that the only way to get certified is to use their toolkit and have your port certified. OI, as you'll recall, was a C++ library that didn't use Xt at all, nor the horrible, icky, aweful Motif API. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 07:14:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA13747 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA13738 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.ki.net (root@freebsd.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by ki.net (8.7.4/8.7.4) with ESMTP id KAA01571; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by freebsd.ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id KAA03527; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:15:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:15:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: J Wunsch cc: FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: PPP routing problem In-Reply-To: <199604111311.PAA05026@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > freebsd# traceroute stoned.ki.net > > traceroute to stoned.ki.net (205.150.102.200), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets > > ^C > > freebsd# !net > > netstat -nr > > Routing tables > ... > > 205.150.102.200 link#1 UHLW 0 1 > > That's a stale ARP entry. (Tried to use ARP for resolving the address, > but didn't succeed.) IMHO, the ARP attempts should be aborted if an > interface is being established on this address later. > > Don't use proxyarp. :) > I'm not, or at least not to the best of my knowledge. OKay, now I feel stupid...how do I disable proxyarp? How do I know if I'm using it? I just looked for a man page on proxyarp, and, of course, there isn't one. There is the arp utility, but I'm not running that anywhere either. Is this a problem with my -current machine though, which I suspect, or my -stable machine (where the PPP connection is initially made) Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 07:27:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA14698 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA14685 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Thu, 11 Apr 96 10:27:17 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.158]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Thu, 11 Apr 96 10:27:12 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id JAA24489; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:28:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:28:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604111428.JAA24489@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Jake Hamby Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:25:26 -0700 (PDT) I haven't attached your comments on Lesstif, due to space constraints, but let me say that you made some excellent points and I agree with you completely on this topic. Motif is the closest thing we have to a standard in the wacky world of X-Windows, I disagree profoundly. Tk is the closest thing to a standard. Moreover, Tk is portable to the major non-unix platforms, while Motif is not. It is reasonably fast, I win. looks professional, We draw. has a consistent style guide that follows IBM's CUA guidelines Largely unused and hence of questionable relevance. interoperates well with other Motif programs (e.g. Drag and Drop) We draw. Also, there are some excellent GUI builder tools that allow a complete user interface to be generated in literally a matter of hours I think dev time is my trump card on this one. I would not dream of developing a general-purpose commercial application using Motif, because it would lock me into a small fraction of the Unix market, and cut off the vast majority of potential customers. And of course it is completely impractical to write freeware using Motif. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 07:43:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA15730 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA15712 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.mcs.com (root@Venus.mcs.com [192.160.127.92]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA02041; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:42:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: by venus.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Thu, 11 Apr 96 09:42 CDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: -STABLE bits problem To: imb@scgt.oz.au (michael butler) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:42:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, stable@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604111135.VAA11589@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> from "michael butler" at Apr 11, 96 09:35:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Karl Denninger, MCSNet writes: > > Sometime in the last two weeks, select() got broken in the kernel. > > I see a similar, possibly related problem here .. it breaks nnrpd with > shared-active and harvest's cached does this when asked to ftp something > larger than the configured 4 meg cached-file maximum .. > > load averages: 1.64, 1.28, 0.84 21:32:49 > 75 processes: 2 running, 73 sleeping > Cpu states: 5.0% user, 37.3% nice, 56.2% system, 1.5% interrupt, 0.0% idle > Mem: 49M Active, 8996K Wired, 2876K Cache, 6751K Buf, 1456K Free > Swap: 143M Total, 25M Used, 118M Free, 17% Inuse > > PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND > 229 www 105 4 16M 11M RUN 20:42 76.60% 76.60% cached > > This is hurting :-( > > michael > I'm running nnrpd with shared-active on this machine and am NOT seeing a problem with that. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1] | 21 Chicagoland POPs, ISDN, 28.8, much more Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ ISDN - Get it here TODAY! | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 08:05:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA17324 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA17319 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA04157; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:05:32 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:05:32 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199604111505.JAA04157@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: tam@riogrande.cs.tcu.edu Cc: Michael Smith , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... In-Reply-To: References: <199604101628.BAA24172@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1. What does the from BSDI translate into for > FreeBSD ??? Is is ???? Or is that something > added in current ???? Simply remove it, it's not necessary. > 2. Has anybody gotten it to compile and work ??? Apparently a couple people have. I did a quick one-through on it, but didn't pursue the 'PCCONS' stuff. I suspect we'll see some more noise on the lists when it gets more stable. > Finally, I realize that it would probably be better if I > run current ... but as the semester draws to an end here at school, > crunch period is getting worse and worse ... so I will probably not > be able to get a copy of current until the summer ... Till summer :) Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 08:08:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA17505 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA17412 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA17355; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604111503.IAA17355@austin.polstra.com> To: djr@saa-cons.co.uk Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Base-64 decoder (was: Solaris2.5 and BSD* - Facts) In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:03:23 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dave Roberts asked: > ObOffTopic: anyone know a tool to to base64 decoding? Some of my > users get their mail sent to ccMail, and their gateway doesn't > understand MIME. A DOS util to do with would be great (I can't > convert *everyone* to Unix and Pine! ;) You might try the "mpack" package. In includes a program named "munpack", which will decode base-64 as well as uuencoded stuff. It is available for lots of platforms, including Unix, DOS, OS/2, Mac, and Amiga. Take a look in: ftp://ftp.andrew.cmu.edu/pub/mpack/ -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 08:36:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA19529 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA19521 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Thu, 11 Apr 96 11:36:09 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.158]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Thu, 11 Apr 96 11:36:06 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id KAA25026; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:37:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:37:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604111537.KAA25026@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: netboot roms Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone sell netboot roms? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 09:21:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA22524 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22516 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id SAA19207 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:21:07 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id SAA16060 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:21:06 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA05773 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:15:21 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604111615.SAA05773@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:15:21 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199604111058.GAA04390@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Apr 11, 96 06:58:33 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > > > In the mean time, editing your XF86Config file is the solution. > > > Is that such a difficult concept? > > > > Yes. It's unacceptable. > > Humbug. You're just being stubborn. Thank you for your very enlightening comment. You're close to falling off the quality level for postings where i even considering an answer. I don't wanna miss Xkb. Otherwise i would have run my Xserver with -xkb. However, as you probably miss, i have a great deal in Usenet support, so i can already predict the upcoming questions. The current situation for the average user is very simple: the system worked as exepected before, the key mapping between the base system and the Xserver were roughly similar (though not identical due to the design flaws of the underlying interface of the console drivers). Now, with the technically better solution, this has been broken. It's *our* responsibility (as the developers of these systems -- o/s, and X11), to give the users at least a migration tool. They might want to pick the Xkb tools to go further, but they should to the very least be able to start with the same feature level as before. I'm living in a country where 98 % of all users need a different keyboard mapping, perhaps this is what makes me more sensible to this kind of breakage. (Yes. Breakage.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 09:37:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA23639 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23634 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA07384; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:37:04 -0700 (PDT) To: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:10:59 EST." <199604111210.IAA04447@exalt.x.org> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:37:04 -0700 Message-ID: <7382.829240624@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As opposed to knowing cryptic options, commands, and whatnot in /etc/* > in order to run UNIX? Well, two wrongs don't make a right. There are many who say that the stuff in /etc should have a nice front-end tool to encapsulate edits, and as much as many people hate AIX I've heard many good things about SMIT. Hackers hate it, of course, but Joe User seems to like it quite a bit. > Get off your high horse. xf86config that does exactly that. Sorry Kaleb, but xf86config is a creeping undead abortion from the foulest pit of Hell. I would hardly want to hold it up as a shining paragon of anything, except perhaps how to construct utterly unusable interfaces using shell programming. You really should give a better example to support your argument! All in all, this argument strikes me as: Person A: "Your Pinto shouldn't explode when struck from behind." Person B: "Oh yeah? Well your LADA shouldn't fall to pieces when driven over 40 miles an hour!" Person A: "Yo momma! At least *our* cars don't have sticky accellerators!" Person B: "Oh right, and who's car was voted `most likely to maim' by Ralph Nader last year?!" Drivers: "Aiiiiieeeeeeee! *crash*! *KABOOM*! [crackle crackle crackle]." You're both right. So what's your point? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 11:07:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA28151 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28143 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA04310; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:04:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604111804.LAA04310@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: wong@rogerswave.ca (Wong) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:04:06 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: from "Wong" at Apr 10, 96 08:55:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > AST's are easy. It's the stacks they need to run while your program > > is already using your only stack that are annoying. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > why? you can allocate space for each and every process ( thread ) that > want to handle AST. in fact it can be on another CPU. Because AST's are "Asynchronous System Traps", not "Thread Starting Events". You *could* handle events by starting seperate kernel threads (the classical non-segment method of getting multiple real instead of pseudo-stacks), but it would be terrifically inefficient to do it. Further, in VMS (let's be open, if we are talking about AST's), it isn't required, and having to make the code thread-safe is not a requirement. Finally, I think you are confusing AST's and CV's (Condition Variables), which are also settable as a result of the scheduled event completing. The difference is that ina threaded process, I would need an ITC mechanism, like a CV. With a classical AST, all I need is a volatile variable. > > Queued event delivery shouldn't have any impact on how RT > the system AST are delived to those process that registered to handle a > given interrept. in a user space. > > > is or isn't (maybe I just can't see what you mean...). Message > > passing does not a R.T. system make, in my book... > > well, I was just a bite vague on this, I meant besides the regular > textbook schedule on R.T. pre-emptive,fixed priority etc..., this even I > can do even when I am awake. > > but for for applications, you want to have a process run on a specific > CPU alone wait for A/D conversion complate, so that the process can > strobe the data in in a _determinestic_ manner. I am not good in > drawing, otherwise, I can show you the exact timing in this. > anyway, in my book, exact timing is R.T. Sounds like what you want is TQE's with AST's to implement primitive deadlining (as opposed to implementing real deadlining). All of the AST mechanisms discussed so far really don't have the idea of implementing TQE's anywhere in them... even my calls for kernel one-shots wouldn't make the thread schedulable if there were other ready-to-run threads (processes) ahead of it in line that had not consumed their system quantum. For what you want, in terms of being able to respond deterministically, kernel preemption is required. Which means kernel reentrancy is required. Which means kernel multithreading is required. These are all on my list, but they ar a long way off at present, and much of the required changes are going to have to go in when the interrupt virtualization goes in for SMP. It's a requirement of that model that the interrupt service routines be split, and the absolute minimum amount of work be done at interrupt level, queueing the actual work for later. This will have the side effect of decreasing interrupt latency, even in the UP case, since after the queue but before processing, the system would be reay for another interrupt (NT does this; so does SVR4 ES/MP and Sequent's OS, as well as Solaris). I certainly haven't been working on the interrupt code; I've only been working on the system call entry into the kernel, one of the three ways in (the third being via exceptions, like page faults or stack growth). I think I've found someone with greater amibitions with shorter time frames than myself. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 11:25:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA29158 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29153 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA04358; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:19:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604111819.LAA04358@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Chang) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:19:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, terry@lambert.org, lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Richard Chang" at Apr 10, 96 06:51:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Speaking about motif, is there anyway to have the same X > environment as in what is used on SUNOS 5.3 (Solaris) on SUN Sparc5's and > what is used on HP Apollo Workstations with the same desktop under FreeBSD? You mean 5.4 (Solaris 2.4)? That's the first one that shipped with Motif instead of OpenLook (OpenWindows). The HP environment is called "VUE". It's Motif plus some tools, like the little control/button box at the bottom of the screen, some drag targets (for printing, etc.), a clock, and a file manager. HP VUE is a component of CDE (the Common Desktop Environment), which is available as a seperate disk for Solaris (2.x SunOS -- SVR4) systems. There are companies selling CDE; generally the licensing of CDE is only slightly more expensive than Motif (unless you are Novell or some other comany and can "trade" technology so you don't have to pay any of the OSF or HP royalties). My problem with CDE (and Motif as a component of CDE) as a standard is that you must pay to license the technology. It is effectively a standards-granted monopoly on UNIX user interfaces. The intent, obviously, is to require a "buy-in" to be allowed to compete in the UNIX market. Without the "buy-in" or the type of trades Novell (now SCO, I guess) and the other big vendors have engaged in using imaginary money to drop the royalty costs, this means that the cost to the free systems for the same technology is more than the cost of a commercial system. That's why I approve of a project *like* Lesstif, even if I don't approve of the implementation practices or licensing of Lesstif itself (I'd *really* like to see a "FreeCDE" project). So there is a way: license CDE seperately from a third party that doesn't have a royalty buy-off, and pay through the nose for it. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 11:45:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA00726 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00703 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id UAA15330; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:34:19 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199604111834.UAA15330@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI). To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:34:18 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de, bde@zeta.org.au, dutchman@spase.nl, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604101308.IAA00947@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Apr 10, 96 08:08:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry for not trimming the message too much but the numbers sound strange. > NCR-SCSI driver ASUS SC200 W/ST12400 2.1GB Hawk > Command overhead is 1370 usec (time_4096 = 2093, time_8192 = 2815) > transfer speed is 5.6707e+06 bytes/sec > Command overhead is 839 usec (time_4096 = 2093, time_8192 = 3347) > transfer speed is 3.26577e+06 bytes/sec First I assume you measure the overhead as t4K - (t8K - t4K) but the numbers for the NCR probably suggest that data ought to be averaged over a larger number of experiments. Second, I guess you are measuring the SCSI/IDE/EIDE bus transfer speed, rather than the disk transfer speed, isn't it ? Also, how comes that a 2X CDROM has such a low speed ? > SCSI 2.2X CDROM > Command overhead is 5655 usec (time_4096 = 9033, time_8192 = 12410) > transfer speed is 1.21281e+06 bytes/sec > Command overhead is 5670 usec (time_4096 = 9046, time_8192 = 12422) > transfer speed is 1.21324e+06 bytes/sec Third, what do you mean by "Standard IDE" vs EIDE ? Isn't it rather an ISA vs. VLB/PCI comparison ? I have tried both a WDC540 and a WDC1.6GB, and the 540 gets a maximum speed (with iozone or bonnie) of some 2.2MB/s at most, no matter how fast is the interface or the system. Instead, the WDC 1.6GB (as you also experienced) is rated at 5.5MB/s on the same system). > Standard IDE W/WDC540H > Command overhead is 436 usec (time_4096 = 2001, time_8192 = 3565) > transfer speed is 2.61859e+06 bytes/sec > Command overhead is 436 usec (time_4096 = 2002, time_8192 = 3568) > transfer speed is 2.61586e+06 bytes/sec > > EIDE W/WDC540H > Command overhead is 375 usec (time_4096 = 814, time_8192 = 1254) > transfer speed is 9.31994e+06 bytes/sec > Command overhead is 368 usec (time_4096 = 800, time_8192 = 1231) > transfer speed is 9.49095e+06 bytes/sec > > EIDE W/WDC 1.6GB > Command overhead is 217 usec (time_4096 = 513, time_8192 = 809) > transfer speed is 1.38444e+07 bytes/sec > Command overhead is 196 usec (time_4096 = 502, time_8192 = 808) > transfer speed is 1.33987e+07 bytes/sec Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 11:48:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA01032 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01017 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Thu, 11 Apr 96 14:48:08 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.158]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Thu, 11 Apr 96 14:48:05 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id NAA00908; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:47:59 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:47:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604111847.NAA00908@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: pgcc kernel compiles automated Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To eliminate those annoying manual interventions in making kernels using pgcc, here is a trivial script. I just say 'make CC=ccc' It assumes that the distribution cc is renamed to kcc, pgcc is installed as gcc # #!/bin/sh # # /usr/local/bin/ccc # # script to permit optimal compilation of the kernel using pgcc # with work-arounds for bugs and other inconveniences # for i in $* do case $i in ../../kern/kern_xxx.c) # pgcc bug -- use this as an # opportunity to hook in the # missing run-time without # touching the makefile if gcc $* ../../libkern/muldi3.c ; then echo gcc -O compile done ld -r -o kern_xxx2.o kern_xxx.o muldi3.o || exit 1 mv -f kern_xxx2.o kern_xxx.o exit 0; else echo kern_xxx gcc -O failed exit 1 fi ;; *) ;; esac done if ! gcc -O6 -fomit-frame-pointer $* ; then # pgcc bug rm -f cc1.core if ! gcc -O3 -fomit-frame-pointer$* ; then # assembly syntax problem rm -f cc1.core if ! kcc -O $* ; then # *your* problem echo All compilers failed. exit 1 else echo kcc -O compile done. fi else echo gcc -O3 compile done. fi else echo gcc -O6 compile done. fi exit 0 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 11:51:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA01268 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01221 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA18756; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:51:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: schizo.cdsnet.net: mrcpu owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:51:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" cc: michael butler , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -STABLE bits problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmmm, I see problems with select and nntplink on both -current and -stable. Oodles of errors from nntplink about broken select problems (I've tried both ifdef's), and other stuff. Works just fine on BSD/OS. On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Karl Denninger, MCSNet wrote: > > > > Karl Denninger, MCSNet writes: > > > Sometime in the last two weeks, select() got broken in the kernel. > > > > I see a similar, possibly related problem here .. it breaks nnrpd with > > shared-active and harvest's cached does this when asked to ftp something > > larger than the configured 4 meg cached-file maximum .. > > > > load averages: 1.64, 1.28, 0.84 21:32:49 > > 75 processes: 2 running, 73 sleeping > > Cpu states: 5.0% user, 37.3% nice, 56.2% system, 1.5% interrupt, 0.0% idle > > Mem: 49M Active, 8996K Wired, 2876K Cache, 6751K Buf, 1456K Free > > Swap: 143M Total, 25M Used, 118M Free, 17% Inuse > > > > PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND > > 229 www 105 4 16M 11M RUN 20:42 76.60% 76.60% cached > > > > This is hurting :-( > > > > michael > > > > I'm running nnrpd with shared-active on this machine and am NOT seeing a > problem with that. > > -- > -- > Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity > Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available > Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1] | 21 Chicagoland POPs, ISDN, 28.8, much more > Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ > ISDN - Get it here TODAY! | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 11:54:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA01525 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01517 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA02529; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:51:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199604111851.LAA02529@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: John Polstra cc: djr@saa-cons.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Base-64 decoder (was: Solaris2.5 and BSD* - Facts) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:03:23 PDT." <199604111503.IAA17355@austin.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:51:47 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk metamail which is available in the ports directory provides a base64 encoder/decoder. exmh a tcl/tk has a cool interface for mh/metamail/pgp/glimpse. Cheers, Amancio >>> John Polstra said: > Dave Roberts asked: > > > ObOffTopic: anyone know a tool to to base64 decoding? Some of my > > users get their mail sent to ccMail, and their gateway doesn't > > understand MIME. A DOS util to do with would be great (I can't > > convert *everyone* to Unix and Pine! ;) > > You might try the "mpack" package. In includes a program named > "munpack", which will decode base-64 as well as uuencoded stuff. It is > available for lots of platforms, including Unix, DOS, OS/2, Mac, and > Amiga. Take a look in: > > ftp://ftp.andrew.cmu.edu/pub/mpack/ > > -- > John Polstra jdp@polstra.com > John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA > "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 11:59:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA01902 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01895 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA02569; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:57:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199604111857.LAA02569@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: wong@rogerswave.ca (Wong), roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:04:06 PDT." <199604111804.LAA04310@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:57:03 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert said: > > > AST's are easy. It's the stacks they need to run while your program > > > is already using your only stack that are annoying. Is this a problem? Lets look it at it from a different angle what happens when the user's process stack space is exhausted-- the process dies. So what is wrong with allocating a fix sized stack for handling ast events? Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:00:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA02092 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02042 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA02601 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:59:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199604111859.LAA02601@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: vm86 patches? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:59:03 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, Does anyone have the old vm86 patches for NetBSD better yet v86 patches for FreeBSD ? 8) Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:15:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA03088 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03071 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA06219; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:15:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:15:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: Satoshi Asami cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: <199604111017.DAA03208@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Satoshi Asami wrote: > * > olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. > * > > * > Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. > * > * I ran FreeBSD since 1.0GAMMA but does olvwm look like motif/fvwm > * in any way since both of these allow hitting alt-F7/F8(fvwm) and > * alt-tab(motif) to go to the next window.... What window manager does > * XFree86 come with? > > Guys, please look at the ports collection. Xview toolkit and olvwm > are both in there and have been working fine for quite some time. > > By the way, if you want a mwm lookalike, go for fvwm, and for an (HP) > vuewm lookalike, ctwm. Do all of these windows managers have a way on the keyboard to switch between windows? Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:16:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA03235 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03227 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA04522; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:14:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604111914.MAA04522@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Chang) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:14:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Richard Chang" at Apr 11, 96 01:50:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >>> Richard Chang said: > > > Will the OPEN LOOK Xview toolkit need a certain windows manager or > > > will fvwm be the closest to motif? > > olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. > > > > Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. > > I ran FreeBSD since 1.0GAMMA but does olvwm look like motif/fvwm > in any way since both of these allow hitting alt-F7/F8(fvwm) and > alt-tab(motif) to go to the next window.... What window manager does > XFree86 come with? It doesn't. I believe our package of it comes wit twm and a bunch of standard X apps, though. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:24:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA03736 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03731 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA04557; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:22:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604111922.MAA04557@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:22:23 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604111428.JAA24489@compound.think.com> from "Tony Kimball" at Apr 11, 96 09:28:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I disagree profoundly. Tk is the closest thing to a standard. > Moreover, Tk is portable to the major non-unix platforms, > while Motif is not. Tk is interpreted. This is a *HUGE* drawback if what you are selling is a commercial product. > has a consistent > style guide that follows IBM's CUA guidelines > Largely unused and hence of questionable relevance. It is "unused" in this regard for the same reason that people "extend" the control sets in Windows95 using OCX's: as a form of copy protection, since it means a user can't just learn the API relative to the style guidelines and apply that knowledge directly to your application, since your application doesn't follow the guidelines. Like "PCWrite" and "PCTalk", these people are selling manuals. The death of algorithmic copy protection has been the biggest boon for the documentation writing and custom controls industry since the invention of custom controls in the first place. > interoperates well with other Motif programs (e.g. > Drag and Drop) > We draw. Tk has Motif drag-and-drop interoperability? This I have got to see... > I would not dream of developing a general-purpose commercial > application using Motif, because it would lock me into a small > fraction of the Unix market, and cut off the vast majority of > potential customers. The small fraction running commercial UNIX and certified to comply with IBCS2 and the SVR4 EABI, so that you as a vendor nedd support only one binary distribution? > And of course it is completely impractical to write freeware using Motif. Only because Motif is *currently* a proprietary standard. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:28:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA03988 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03971 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA07296; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:27:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:27:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: Terry Lambert cc: jehamby@lightside.com, terry@lambert.org, lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: <199604111819.LAA04358@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Speaking about motif, is there anyway to have the same X > > environment as in what is used on SUNOS 5.3 (Solaris) on SUN Sparc5's and > > what is used on HP Apollo Workstations with the same desktop under FreeBSD? > > You mean 5.4 (Solaris 2.4)? That's the first one that shipped with > Motif instead of OpenLook (OpenWindows). It should be 5.4 since one looks closer to motif... > The HP environment is called "VUE". It's Motif plus some tools, like > the little control/button box at the bottom of the screen, some drag > targets (for printing, etc.), a clock, and a file manager. > > HP VUE is a component of CDE (the Common Desktop Environment), which > is available as a seperate disk for Solaris (2.x SunOS -- SVR4) systems. Okay... > There are companies selling CDE; generally the licensing of CDE is > only slightly more expensive than Motif (unless you are Novell or > some other comany and can "trade" technology so you don't have to > pay any of the OSF or HP royalties). > > > My problem with CDE (and Motif as a component of CDE) as a standard > is that you must pay to license the technology. It is effectively a > standards-granted monopoly on UNIX user interfaces. > > The intent, obviously, is to require a "buy-in" to be allowed to > compete in the UNIX market. > > > Without the "buy-in" or the type of trades Novell (now SCO, I guess) > and the other big vendors have engaged in using imaginary money to > drop the royalty costs, this means that the cost to the free systems > for the same technology is more than the cost of a commercial system. > > That's why I approve of a project *like* Lesstif, even if I don't > approve of the implementation practices or licensing of Lesstif > itself (I'd *really* like to see a "FreeCDE" project). > > > So there is a way: license CDE seperately from a third party that > doesn't have a royalty buy-off, and pay through the nose for it. > > 8-(. Hmmm, is there anything even close to CDE for fwvm? or has the same functions? Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:29:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA04085 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04066 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA07375; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:28:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:28:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: Terry Lambert cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: <199604111914.MAA04522@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > >>> Richard Chang said: > > > > Will the OPEN LOOK Xview toolkit need a certain windows manager or > > > > will fvwm be the closest to motif? > > > olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. > > > > > > Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. > > > > I ran FreeBSD since 1.0GAMMA but does olvwm look like motif/fvwm > > in any way since both of these allow hitting alt-F7/F8(fvwm) and > > alt-tab(motif) to go to the next window.... What window manager does > > XFree86 come with? > > It doesn't. I believe our package of it comes wit twm and a bunch of > standard X apps, though. It works pretty well but how do you find out what X apps are on the machine? Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:36:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA04648 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04547 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA16682; Thu, 11 Apr 96 15:34:51 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id PAA10893; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:34:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199604111934.PAA10893@exalt.x.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:37:04 EST. <7382.829240624@time.cdrom.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:34:49 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As opposed to knowing cryptic options, commands, and whatnot in /etc/* > > in order to run UNIX? > > Well, two wrongs don't make a right. This kind of rhetoric just pegs my bullshit meter. > There are many who say that the > stuff in /etc should have a nice front-end tool to encapsulate edits, > and as much as many people hate AIX I've heard many good things about > SMIT. Hackers hate it, of course, but Joe User seems to like it quite > a bit. You're right. So what's your point? > > > Get off your high horse. xf86config that does exactly that. > > Sorry Kaleb, but xf86config is a creeping undead abortion from the > foulest pit of Hell. I guess XFree86 has the same sort of problem that FreeBSD does in getting people interested in writing essential utilities that don't have the glamor of hacking the kernel or the X server. > I would hardly want to hold it up as a shining > paragon of anything, except perhaps how to construct utterly unusable > interfaces using shell programming. You really should give a better > example to support your argument! I don't think the quality of implementation of xf86config is really relevant to this topic. The fact is that it's there. If you don't like it then I guess the burden is on you to write a better one and give it back to XFree86. > You're both right. So what's your point? The point is that some people seem to be ignorant about the features in the XFree86 server. Rather than allow disinformation to be spread I feel that it is incumbent upon me to correct factual errors when I see them and to try to educate people when they seem to be in need of additional information. Some have asserted that it's too much to ask people to change a line in their XF86Config file from "XkbSymbols us(pc101)" to "XkbSymbols us(pc101)+de" because that's "hacker meat." Frankly this rates as one of the more specious arguments I've ever heard. This isn't Micro$oft Windoze after all. In this particular case arguments like "it used to work" don't hold much water for me because a) 99% of the people who use X never see the console, b) 90% of the platforms I support don't have the feature at all, so from where I stand they haven't lost anything at all, and c) XKB is otherwise a big win because now all platforms, whether its a 16Mhz 386/SX running FreeBSD, a 300Mhz Digital AXP, or anything between and beyond, they all have the same basic mechanism for dealing with the keymaps. XKB is big move forward in a vendor neutral solution to this problem -- keep up or get left behind. All of that not withstanding, there are relatively simple answers to the questions that were asked, but that wasn't good enough for Soren and Joerg, who seem to want to hold XFree86 to a higher standard than they do even for their own endeavor. And so the flaming goes. They were even polite answers for the most part; but that wasn't good enough. If I can't be allowed to educate your core team, then perhaps I should let you flounder and figure it out on your own? The fact is that editing the XF86Config file is the way it's going to be until there's something better in the OS for the server to work with. I must say that it seems you have your work cut out for you. It must be very hard to develop good will when your core team flame people who are trying to be helpful. Before Soren and Joerg's barrage I had it in mind that I would do something about it, but my good will is rapidly evaporating. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:37:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA04710 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04702 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA05654; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:35:25 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199604120035.TAA05654@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI). To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:35:25 -0500 (EST) Cc: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de, bde@zeta.org.au, dutchman@spase.nl, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604111834.UAA15330@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Apr 11, 96 08:34:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Sorry for not trimming the message too much but the numbers sound > strange. > Yep... If you assume that the purpose of the benchmark is to measure total drive perf. Actually, it is meant to measure the interface overhead. > > but the numbers for the NCR probably suggest that data ought to be > averaged over a larger number of experiments. > True, but it still appears that the NCR/HAWK overhead is high. I would tend to suspect the HAWK more than the NCR -- but I simply do not know. > > Second, I guess you are measuring the SCSI/IDE/EIDE bus transfer speed, > rather than the disk transfer speed, isn't it ? > Yes. The purpose of the benchmark appears to be to measure the interface performance -- not necessarily the drive itself. > > Also, how comes that a 2X CDROM has such a low speed ? > Apparently the SCSI overhead of the TOSIBA XM-3401TA is very very high. > > Third, what do you mean by "Standard IDE" vs EIDE ? Isn't it rather an > ISA vs. VLB/PCI comparison ? I have tried both a WDC540 and a WDC1.6GB, > and the 540 gets a maximum speed (with iozone or bonnie) of some > 2.2MB/s at most, no matter how fast is the interface or the system. > It is standard IDE timing vs. MODE 3/4 timing. PCI interface isn't important here -- IDE is kind-of an ISA bus with perhaps modified timing. Below is the performance on my WDC540H (the good one with the big cache), using bonnie and MODE3 +- timing. -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 100 1663 35.2 2797 11.9 1017 5.2 2074 33.3 2868 7.5 62.5 2.7 > Instead, the WDC 1.6GB (as you also experienced) is rated at 5.5MB/s on > the same system). > > > Standard IDE W/WDC540H > > Command overhead is 436 usec (time_4096 = 2001, time_8192 = 3565) > > transfer speed is 2.61859e+06 bytes/sec > > Command overhead is 436 usec (time_4096 = 2002, time_8192 = 3568) > > transfer speed is 2.61586e+06 bytes/sec > > This says NO MATTER what the drive can do, the max xfer rate is 2.6MBytes per second using regular IDE timing. At that rate, it is likely that there will be 100% CPU utlization just for the I/O xfer :-(. > > EIDE W/WDC540H > > Command overhead is 375 usec (time_4096 = 814, time_8192 = 1254) > > transfer speed is 9.31994e+06 bytes/sec > > Command overhead is 368 usec (time_4096 = 800, time_8192 = 1231) > > transfer speed is 9.49095e+06 bytes/sec > > This says that the WDC540H is capable of much better than IDE timing. Note that it is likely that the CPU overhead is much much less using enhanced timing, even though the drive is not capable of much better than 2.7-2.8MBytes/sec. There are lots more CPU wait states when transferring in standard IDE mode than in MODE3. > > EIDE W/WDC 1.6GB > > Command overhead is 217 usec (time_4096 = 513, time_8192 = 809) > > transfer speed is 1.38444e+07 bytes/sec > > Command overhead is 196 usec (time_4096 = 502, time_8192 = 808) > > transfer speed is 1.33987e+07 bytes/sec > This says that the EIDE 1.6Gbyte drive has very quick command overhead, and can transfer between the drives buffer and CPU at 13MBytes/sec (perhaps more, but that is what my machine does with it.) The actual platter transfer rate through FFS is shown below: -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 100 1816 39.5 5442 25.8 1881 9.2 2271 37.6 5628 13.4 89.6 3.6 BTW, next time I want to driver-hack, I plan to work on Garrett's submission of the DMA code for Triton EIDE. It would be interesting to see (on an experimental basis) if the CPU loading is significantly decreased further. John dyson@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:38:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA04759 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04753 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Thu, 11 Apr 96 15:36:21 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.158]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Thu, 11 Apr 96 15:36:16 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id OAA01259; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:36:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:36:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604111936.OAA01259@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: terry@lambert.org Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604111922.MAA04557@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:22:23 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:22:23 -0700 (MST) > I disagree profoundly. Tk is the closest thing to a standard. > Moreover, Tk is portable to the major non-unix platforms, > while Motif is not. Tk is interpreted. This is a *HUGE* drawback if what you are selling is a commercial product. No, Tk is not interpreted. Tcl is interpreted. And that not for long. You need not use Tcl in your Tk app. But when the next major tcl rev comes along you can ship compiled tcl objects, according to the announced development plan. Tk has Motif drag-and-drop interoperability? This I have got to see... Tk has Tk d-n-d interop. Not Motif interop. Nor does Motif have Tk interop. Mutatis mutandis. The small fraction running commercial UNIX and certified to comply with IBCS2 and the SVR4 EABI, so that you as a vendor nedd support only one binary distribution? The small fraction running Motif. It's too big to ship static executables. > And of course it is completely impractical to write freeware using Motif. Only because Motif is *currently* a proprietary standard. I'd like to see that fixed as well, but I'm less motivated because I think cross-platform is the summum bonum of GUI, and Motif is therefore not of interest. And as far as HI standards go, FVWM95 has already done more to standardize HI than CDE will ever do. I prefer CDE's content, but there you go. Motif:Tk::terminfo:termcap :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:43:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA05104 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05097 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA03043; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:42:30 -0700 Message-Id: <199604111942.MAA03043@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Tony Kimball cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pgcc kernel compiles automated In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:47:59 CDT." <199604111847.NAA00908@compound.think.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:42:30 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does the new kernel run any faster ? Tnks, Amancio >>> Tony Kimball said: > > To eliminate those annoying manual interventions in making kernels > using pgcc, here is a trivial script. I just say 'make CC=ccc' > It assumes that the distribution cc is renamed to kcc, pgcc is > installed as gcc > > # > #!/bin/sh > # > # /usr/local/bin/ccc > # > # script to permit optimal compilation of the kernel using pgcc > # with work-arounds for bugs and other inconveniences > # > > > for i in $* > do > case $i in > ../../kern/kern_xxx.c) # pgcc bug -- use this as an > # opportunity to hook in the > # missing run-time without > # touching the makefile > if gcc $* ../../libkern/muldi3.c ; then > echo gcc -O compile done > ld -r -o kern_xxx2.o kern_xxx.o muldi3.o || exit 1 > mv -f kern_xxx2.o kern_xxx.o > exit 0; > else > echo kern_xxx gcc -O failed > exit 1 > fi > ;; > *) > ;; > esac > done > > if ! gcc -O6 -fomit-frame-pointer $* ; then # pgcc bug > rm -f cc1.core > if ! gcc -O3 -fomit-frame-pointer$* ; then # assembly syntax problem > rm -f cc1.core > if ! kcc -O $* ; then # *your* problem > echo All compilers failed. > exit 1 > else > echo kcc -O compile done. > fi > else > echo gcc -O3 compile done. > fi > else > echo gcc -O6 compile done. > fi > exit 0 > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 12:56:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA05897 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05891 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Thu, 11 Apr 96 15:53:33 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.158]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Thu, 11 Apr 96 15:53:27 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id OAA01369; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:53:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:53:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604111953.OAA01369@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604111942.MAA03043@rah.star-gate.com> (hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Subject: Re: pgcc kernel compiles automated Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:42:30 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Does the new kernel run any faster ? I have not benchmarked. This is a personal machine, so reality means nothing to me, merely perception. That having been said, I will repeat my earlier comment: It's a more noticable difference (and the more so since a make world and rebuilding emacs) than was changing from a 5x86-120GP/UMC MoBo to a P-100/Triton. The pgcc home page claims 5-30% typical speedup depending on switches, and some code size reduction. My experience is consistent with this claim, although unquantified. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 13:00:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06364 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06359 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id FAA04906; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:57:47 +1000 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:57:47 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199604111957.FAA04906@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, toor@dyson.iquest.net Subject: Re: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI). Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, dutchman@spase.nl, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, se@zpr.uni-koeln.de Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> NCR-SCSI driver ASUS SC200 W/ST12400 2.1GB Hawk >> Command overhead is 1370 usec (time_4096 = 2093, time_8192 = 2815) >> transfer speed is 5.6707e+06 bytes/sec >> Command overhead is 839 usec (time_4096 = 2093, time_8192 = 3347) >> transfer speed is 3.26577e+06 bytes/sec >First I assume you measure the overhead as > t4K - (t8K - t4K) >but the numbers for the NCR probably suggest that data ought to be >averaged over a larger number of experiments. Ignore experiments where the transfer speed isn't within a few percent of the maximum possible transfer speed. The transfer speed is only printed so that you can do this non-automatically. For SCSI controllers it is usually 10MB/sec (is that 10*100*100 or 10*1024*1024?). For IDE/ EIDE controllers it is unknown in general. >Second, I guess you are measuring the SCSI/IDE/EIDE bus transfer speed, >rather than the disk transfer speed, isn't it ? No, we are attempting to measure command overhead. >Also, how comes that a 2X CDROM has such a low speed ? Perhaps the drive doesn't buffer it. >> SCSI 2.2X CDROM >> Command overhead is 5655 usec (time_4096 = 9033, time_8192 = 12410) >> transfer speed is 1.21281e+06 bytes/sec >> Command overhead is 5670 usec (time_4096 = 9046, time_8192 = 12422) >> transfer speed is 1.21324e+06 bytes/sec It's 14 times faster than mine :-]: MATSHITA CR-533 Command overhead is 131637 usec (time_4096 = 130286, time_8192 = 128936) transfer speed is -3.03353e+06 bytes/sec ^^ garbage and 2 times faster than my Zip drive: IOMEGA ZIP 100 Command overhead is 20410 usec (time_4096 = 20410, time_8192 = 20410) transfer speed is 3.9767e+10 bytes/sec ^^^^ garbage These tests took so long that the command overhead estimates are probably accurate despite the garbage transfer speed estimates. They show that it takes little or negative extra time to read more data. The speeds for dd'ing the Zip drive for 40 seconds are consistent with the estimated command overhead: block size speed 1000000.0/command_overhead*block_size ----- ------ ------- 512 24800 25085 <- small frags 1024 49000 50171 <- default frags 2048 97000 100342 4096 185000 200645 8192 313000 401371 <- default single blocks 16384 492000 802743 32768 708000 1605487 <- cmd overhead stops dominating 65536 858000 3210975 <- clustered blocks >Third, what do you mean by "Standard IDE" vs EIDE ? Isn't it rather an >ISA vs. VLB/PCI comparison ? I have tried both a WDC540 and a WDC1.6GB, >and the 540 gets a maximum speed (with iozone or bonnie) of some >2.2MB/s at most, no matter how fast is the interface or the system. >Instead, the WDC 1.6GB (as you also experienced) is rated at 5.5MB/s on >the same system). >> ... >> EIDE W/WDC 1.6GB >> Command overhead is 217 usec (time_4096 = 513, time_8192 = 809) >> transfer speed is 1.38444e+07 bytes/sec >> Command overhead is 196 usec (time_4096 = 502, time_8192 = 808) >> transfer speed is 1.33987e+07 bytes/sec The transfer speed reported by the disk should depeend mainly on the PIO mode. Fast PIO modes are more common on PCI buses. It looks like the above is for a PIO speed of 15 or 16MB/sec. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 13:00:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06396 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06379 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA17108; Thu, 11 Apr 96 16:00:12 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id QAA10915; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:00:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199604112000.QAA10915@exalt.x.org> To: J Wunsch Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:15:21 EST. <199604111615.SAA05773@uriah.heep.sax.de> Organization: X Consortium Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:00:10 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > > > > > In the mean time, editing your XF86Config file is the solution. > > > > Is that such a difficult concept? > > > > > > Yes. It's unacceptable. > > > > Humbug. You're just being stubborn. > > Thank you for your very enlightening comment. You're close to falling > off the quality level for postings where i even considering an answer. Win some, lose some. > I don't wanna miss Xkb. Otherwise i would have run my Xserver with > -xkb. However, as you probably miss, i have a great deal in Usenet > support, so i can already predict the upcoming questions. > > The current situation for the average user is very simple: the system > worked as exepected before, the key mapping between the base system > and the Xserver were roughly similar (though not identical due to the > design flaws of the underlying interface of the console drivers). It's an education problem and I am sensitive to the difficulties. But no one should expect to upgrade to a new version of anything and not expect to have to understand the implications of doing that. The lack of backwards compatibility in this area is a problem, but to paraphrase Terry Lambert, we can't afford, in this case, to keep the "backwards" in backwards compatibility. On the other hand, if you have a parser that can interpret a keymap to find out what language it's for, then speak up and I'll try to get it into XFree86. (I'm not an XFree86 core team member, so I can't promise anything.) For those who are forced to upgrade XFree86 to get support for their VGA card, if they do things right, they'll run xf86config, and they'll be prompted for the keymap to use. Doesn't seem like a problem to me. > Now, with the technically better solution, this has been broken. It's > *our* responsibility (as the developers of these systems -- o/s, and > X11), to give the users at least a migration tool. They might want to > pick the Xkb tools to go further, but they should to the very least be > able to start with the same feature level as before. I'm living in a > country where 98 % of all users need a different keyboard mapping, > perhaps this is what makes me more sensible to this kind of breakage. > (Yes. Breakage.) Well, if you're going to insist on calling it breakage, then I'll be forced to resort to a little rhetoric of my own: You have to break a few eggs to make a cake. The X Consortium members have voted to move forward. I have no better advice at this time except to be prepared to educate people about how to fix their XF86Config file or how to use xkbcomp to load a keymap in their .xinitrc or .xsession. Otherwise what you're asking for would require a tighter integration between FreeBSD and XFree86 releases, and frankly, I don't see that happening. So, if we can dispense with the rhetoric I'm willing to try to recondense some of my evaporated good will and take a stab at augmenting the console driver (and keycommand) to provide a better interface that the X server can use to automatically load the right keymap based on what's loaded in the console. It's not going to be a 100% solution because even if it gets into 2.2 and the next XFree86 beta there will always be someone who isn't running the right combination of things. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 13:11:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA07127 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA07120 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id WAA15511; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:02:12 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199604112002.WAA15511@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: HDD cpu usage (IDE vs. SCSI). To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:02:11 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, bde@zeta.org.au, dutchman@spase.nl, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, se@zpr.uni-koeln.de In-Reply-To: <199604111957.FAA04906@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Apr 12, 96 05:57:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Also, how comes that a 2X CDROM has such a low speed ? > > Perhaps the drive doesn't buffer it. > > >> SCSI 2.2X CDROM > >> Command overhead is 5655 usec (time_4096 = 9033, time_8192 = 12410) > >> transfer speed is 1.21281e+06 bytes/sec > >> Command overhead is 5670 usec (time_4096 = 9046, time_8192 = 12422) > >> transfer speed is 1.21324e+06 bytes/sec > > It's 14 times faster than mine :-]: WHoops... I read that as 121KB/s instead of 1.2MB/s ... sorry for the confusion! Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 13:21:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA08298 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08290 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA04668; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:18:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112018.NAA04668@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:18:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.ORG, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, tam@riogrande.cs.tcu.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199604111222.VAA29940@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 11, 96 09:52:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, if you're in a position to see what CMH did to the NetBSD vm86() > code to shim it to doscmd and then bring their vm86 code over, please > do. Meanwhile it's worth noting that BSDI appear to have bent over > backwards to avoid using vm86() to implement this, for reasons not yet clear. Pretty obvious to me: non-Intel architectures can't ever support vm86(). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 13:30:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA09012 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09005 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA04699; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:28:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112028.NAA04699@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:28:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604111936.OAA01259@compound.think.com> from "Tony Kimball" at Apr 11, 96 02:36:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I disagree profoundly. Tk is the closest thing to a standard. > > Moreover, Tk is portable to the major non-unix platforms, > > while Motif is not. > > Tk is interpreted. This is a *HUGE* drawback if what you are > selling is a commercial product. > > No, Tk is not interpreted. Tcl is interpreted. And that not for > long. You need not use Tcl in your Tk app. But when the next > major tcl rev comes along you can ship compiled tcl objects, > according to the announced development plan. So will X-builder turn out Tk code? It turns out Motif code... > Tk has Motif drag-and-drop interoperability? This I have got to see... > > Tk has Tk d-n-d interop. Not Motif interop. Nor does Motif have Tk > interop. Mutatis mutandis. Except that Motif drag-and-drop interoperability is part of the X/Open Common UNIX Standard compliance requirements. > The small fraction running commercial UNIX and certified to comply > with IBCS2 and the SVR4 EABI, so that you as a vendor nedd support > only one binary distribution? > > The small fraction running Motif. It's too big to ship static > executables. Require shared libraries. This is obvious a problem with implementation and licensing instances more than it is a truly technical problem... you can't build a technical argument on politics. > > And of course it is completely impractical to write freeware using Motif. > > Only because Motif is *currently* a proprietary standard. > > I'd like to see that fixed as well, but I'm less motivated because > I think cross-platform is the summum bonum of GUI, and Motif is > therefore not of interest. Win32 isn't of interest as long as there is a requirement to go to thunk code to actually get things done that should be covered by the API. So I guess nothing is of interest? > And as far as HI standards go, FVWM95 has already done more to > standardize HI than CDE will ever do. I prefer CDE's content, but > there you go. The reason FVWM is popular is because of the Motif connection. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 13:40:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA09786 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09766 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA04732; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:36:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112036.NAA04732@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:36:19 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, wong@rogerswave.ca, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, roell@xinside.com In-Reply-To: <199604111857.LAA02569@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Apr 11, 96 11:57:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>> Terry Lambert said: > > > > AST's are easy. It's the stacks they need to run while your program > > > > is already using your only stack that are annoying. > > Is this a problem? Lets look it at it from a different angle what happens > when the user's process stack space is exhausted-- the process dies. > > So what is wrong with allocating a fix sized stack for handling ast events? It is common to put a huge amount of code in an AST, including potentially blocking system calls and calls to start other activity that could, itself, result in an AST. Which is to say that a small fixed size stack is unacceptable. In many cases, the entire program operates in nothing but AST's -- if you have the VMS source code, look at the PHONE utility. It's common to do this in signal handlers as well, even though it's bad practice. Hell, since BSD does not virtualize interrupt handling, it's common to do with code that runs at interrupt time as well. The problem with allocating a fixed stack in these circumstances is that it's too small. AST's need to fire in a shared heap, seperate stack environment. As I said before, VMS's additional split in protection domains allows this to happen. An AST needs to be able to fire when another AST is being handled and has made a blocking call, otherwise you lock yourself out of the most useful aspects of AST's compared to signals. Since it's a DEC internal product, I don't expect you to be familiar with DEC's MTS (MultiThreading Services), but they are on the order of changing a blocking call to a call with AST plus a context switch. Like pthreads, except signals don't get screwed as a result. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 13:46:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA10514 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10509 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA04781; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:43:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112043.NAA04781@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Chang) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:43:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Richard Chang" at Apr 11, 96 12:28:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > Will the OPEN LOOK Xview toolkit need a certain windows manager or > > > > > will fvwm be the closest to motif? > > > > olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. > > > > > > > > Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. > > > > > > I ran FreeBSD since 1.0GAMMA but does olvwm look like motif/fvwm > > > in any way since both of these allow hitting alt-F7/F8(fvwm) and > > > alt-tab(motif) to go to the next window.... What window manager does > > > XFree86 come with? > > > > It doesn't. I believe our package of it comes wit twm and a bunch of > > standard X apps, though. > > It works pretty well but how do you find out what X apps are on > the machine? ls -l /usr/bin/X11 (of course, my /usr/bin/X11 is a symlink to /usr/X11R6/bin...) Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 13:47:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA10628 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10618 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA04798; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:44:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112044.NAA04798@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Chang) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:44:26 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jehamby@lightside.com, lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Richard Chang" at Apr 11, 96 12:27:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmmm, is there anything even close to CDE for fwvm? or has the > same functions? No. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 14:00:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA12064 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12058 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA19505 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:01:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: schizo.cdsnet.net: mrcpu owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:01:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: BSD/OS binaries redux... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Do BSD/OS 2.x apps run under latest -stable? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 14:09:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA12638 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DeepCore.dk (dial232.cybercity.dk [194.16.56.232]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12631 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by DeepCore.dk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA00312; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:08:37 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199604112108.XAA00312@DeepCore.dk> Subject: Re: vm86 patches? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:08:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Søren Schmidt" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604111859.LAA02601@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Apr 11, 96 11:59:03 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Amancio Hasty Jr. who wrote: > > > > Howdy, > > Does anyone have the old vm86 patches for NetBSD better yet v86 patches > for FreeBSD ? 8) 1. check 2. almost -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 14:16:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA13110 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13056 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAB17592; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:15:09 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:15:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: Terry Lambert cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: <199604112043.NAA04781@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > Will the OPEN LOOK Xview toolkit need a certain windows manager or > > > > > > will fvwm be the closest to motif? > > > > > olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. > > > > > > > > > > Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. > > > > > > > > I ran FreeBSD since 1.0GAMMA but does olvwm look like motif/fvwm > > > > in any way since both of these allow hitting alt-F7/F8(fvwm) and > > > > alt-tab(motif) to go to the next window.... What window manager does > > > > XFree86 come with? > > > > > > It doesn't. I believe our package of it comes wit twm and a bunch of > > > standard X apps, though. > > > > It works pretty well but how do you find out what X apps are on > > the machine? > > ls -l /usr/bin/X11 > > (of course, my /usr/bin/X11 is a symlink to /usr/X11R6/bin...) I know but some of those programs don't have manpages so I can never figure out what it's purpose is... Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 14:26:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA13922 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13917 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA04989; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:24:13 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112124.OAA04989@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Chang) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:24:13 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Richard Chang" at Apr 11, 96 02:15:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > ls -l /usr/bin/X11 > > > > (of course, my /usr/bin/X11 is a symlink to /usr/X11R6/bin...) > > I know but some of those programs don't have manpages so I can > never figure out what it's purpose is... Source code (which may be the only documentation) and all other materials associated with the programs there are available from ftp.x.org. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 14:28:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA14141 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14136 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA05016; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:26:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112126.OAA05016@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: vm86 patches? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:26:15 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604111859.LAA02601@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Apr 11, 96 11:59:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Does anyone have the old vm86 patches for NetBSD better yet v86 patches > for FreeBSD ? 8) In order: 1) ftp.netbsd.org 2) No Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 14:30:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA14253 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14246 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA05031; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:28:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112128.OAA05031@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Chang) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:28:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Richard Chang" at Apr 11, 96 12:15:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > By the way, if you want a mwm lookalike, go for fvwm, and for an (HP) > > vuewm lookalike, ctwm. > > Do all of these windows managers have a way on the keyboard to > switch between windows? The ones mentioned have the ability to have accelerators bound, though I know that at least one of them does not have them bound by default. Ie: not in the default configuration as distributed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 14:31:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA14322 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13992 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Thu, 11 Apr 96 17:26:36 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.158]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Thu, 11 Apr 96 17:26:32 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id QAA01909; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:26:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:26:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604112126.QAA01909@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: terry@lambert.org Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604112028.NAA04699@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:28:32 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:28:32 -0700 (MST) > No, Tk is not interpreted. Tcl is interpreted. And that not for > long. You need not use Tcl in your Tk app. But when the next > major tcl rev comes along you can ship compiled tcl objects, > according to the announced development plan. So will X-builder turn out Tk code? It turns out Motif code... xf turned out tcl7.3/tk3.6 code. I understand there are patches to support a more modern incarnation as well, but my sense is that people doing tcl/tk find gui-builders largely superfluous, mostly because the geometry managers handle the layout issues that people use gui builders to take care of. xf would need substantial enhancement in order to parallel any of the commerical resource editors. I know you are quite fond of GUI builders. My experience is perhaps less glowing than your own. (Mine is based on about a year spent inside Visual C++, and a few months inside AppBuilder and TCL on the Mac, doing all GUI-oriented code.) In my mind, any one specific commercial GUI builder does not suffice to make an argument in favor of technical accomplishment, because it is ghetto technology. X-builder can be used by perhaps 5% of all X developers. X developers are perhaps 5% of all GUI developers. That's pretty irrelevant to the bigger picture. Likewise xf is irrelevant, but at least it could potentially be made relevant because it is portable to non-X environments and because it is free, whereas X-builder could not. Besides which, these fancy resource-editors just don't account for much, over the life-cycle of any real application. (They're great for little one-offs, though.) Except that Motif drag-and-drop interoperability is part of the X/Open Common UNIX Standard compliance requirements. A de jure standard which is closed in practice is just a marketing tool, not a standard. Microsoft has played that game for years. OSF is doing it too. A de facto standard which is open in practice is to be preferred, on technical, moral, economic, and aesthetic grounds alike. > The small fraction running Motif. It's too big to ship static > executables. Require shared libraries. Precisely my point. Teeny weeny tiny market slice. Not realistic for commerical products, except in niches. Admittedly, those niches can be quite lucrative, but they are still little niches. This is obvious a problem with implementation and licensing instances more than it is a truly technical problem... you can't build a technical argument on politics. Hey, I'd never cripple myself with a straightjacket like that. I'm making a real-world argument from personal goals and values. That being the case, this is no longer appropriate to "hackers". Thus I shall refrain from further follow-ups on this subject. Still, it's not just politics to say that Motif is horribly fat and a bitch to code. Tk is neither. Well, it's no Twiggy... > I'd like to see that fixed as well, but I'm less motivated because > I think cross-platform is the summum bonum of GUI, and Motif is > therefore not of interest. Win32 isn't of interest as long as there is a requirement to go to thunk code to actually get things done that should be covered by the API. So I guess nothing is of interest? Tk is the best thing going for cross-platform deliverability. Tk is of interest, by my criteria of interest. I yearn for promised features of the future, yes, but even half a cake is better than a rubber biscuit. The reason FVWM is popular is because of the Motif connection. FVWM95 is a new thing, eh. Who knows, people see Excel running with Twin, and FVWM95 wrapping it all up -- then you tell them that it's all free except for Excel, and they might just start to wake up. You can have the last word. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 14:43:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA15310 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14893 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Thu, 11 Apr 96 17:35:49 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.158]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Thu, 11 Apr 96 17:35:46 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id QAA01990; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:35:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:35:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604112135.QAA01990@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: async mounts (appropos 'make world') Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk /work is mounted async, /usr is mounted sync: ; time cp -r rts10 ~alk time cp -r rts10 ~alk 24r 0.0u 1.3s cp -r rts10 /usr/home/alk ; time cp -r ~alk/rts10 /work/tmp time cp -r ~alk/rts10 /work/tmp 10r 0.0u 1.2s cp -r /usr/home/alk/rts10 /work/tmp ; time rm -rf ~alk/rts10 time rm -rf ~alk/rts10 11r 0.0u 0.3s rm -rf /usr/home/alk/rts10 ; time rm -rf /work/tmp/rts10 time rm -rf /work/tmp/rts10 0r 0.0u 0.0s rm -rf /work/tmp/rts10 I suggest that those timing 'make world' might find it interesting to compare times doing the build on an async mount. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 14:54:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA16175 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16166 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA05099; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:52:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112152.OAA05099@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:52:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604112126.QAA01909@compound.think.com> from "Tony Kimball" at Apr 11, 96 04:26:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So will X-builder turn out Tk code? It turns out Motif code... > > xf turned out tcl7.3/tk3.6 code. I understand there are patches to > support a more modern incarnation as well, but my sense is that people > doing tcl/tk find gui-builders largely superfluous, mostly because the > geometry managers handle the layout issues that people use gui > builders to take care of. xf would need substantial enhancement in > order to parallel any of the commerical resource editors. This was my point. The level of quality is just not there for the non-commercial products (if it were there, their authors would be sill to have expended such an outrageuos amount of effort such as these things require, without taking them commercial -- that's where new commercial products come from). > I know you are quite fond of GUI builders. My experience is perhaps > less glowing than your own. (Mine is based on about a year spent > inside Visual C++, and a few months inside AppBuilder and TCL on the > Mac, doing all GUI-oriented code.) In my mind, any one specific > commercial GUI builder does not suffice to make an argument in favor > of technical accomplishment, because it is ghetto technology. GUI builders allow incompetent people to build user interfaces, and can, to some small extent, enable competent people to be more productive. In this respect, they are much like prototypes and other ANSI C features that would have been better placed in the linkers on the theory that since compiler users outnumber compiler writers 100:1, anything that saves the average compiler user 1 hour is worth 100 hours of compiler writers time to make work. I disagree with the current cognitive models in use in most recent GUI-builder products because of the resulting code not being well abstractedat the right layers for code portability in favor of making it easier for the GUI-builder-writer. One could easily make the case that a GUI-builder decription (GUI schema) should be portable across environments with no changes. Use of Microsoft foundation classes in the resulting code, and the programmer being encouraged to throw the code all in one directory and one file, and the internationalization techniques commonly use by graphics programmers all conspire against code portability. Visual BASIC is the absolute worst offender. OCX's encourage minor variations in the style from one application to another which makes user training unportable. All this said, that doesn't mean that GUI builders are not a good idea, even if the examples I can show you are all either implemented by morons with no concept of cognitive psychology and other human machine interface issues (proprioception in the mouse/pointer linkage, etc.), or priced beyond the level of general access. > X-builder can be used by perhaps 5% of all X developers. X developers > are perhaps 5% of all GUI developers. That's pretty irrelevant > to the bigger picture. Likewise xf is irrelevant, but at least it > could potentially be made relevant because it is portable to non-X > environments and because it is free, whereas X-builder could not. > Besides which, these fancy resource-editors just don't account for > much, over the life-cycle of any real application. (They're great > for little one-offs, though.) Yes. This is really the problem with the architectural model they imply must be used in applications, which is a problem with the builder implementation, not with the idea of builders. > Except that Motif drag-and-drop interoperability is part of the X/Open > Common UNIX Standard compliance requirements. > > A de jure standard which is closed in practice is just a > marketing tool, not a standard. Microsoft has played that game > for years. OSF is doing it too. Yes. This is my problem with Spec 1170. This is my problem with ABI and POSIX compliance certification being so expensive. It is a club membership buyin. I would argue, though, that Motif is more de facto than de jure; it's popularity is one of user demand (evidence: Sun's switch to Motif from OpenWindows). You could make the same argument for Microsoft's Win32 being a standard by conspiratorial fiat -- but it is no less a standard for it. > A de facto standard which is open in practice is to be preferred, > on technical, moral, economic, and aesthetic grounds alike. Agreed. This is why it is painfaul to see the Lesstif people cutting corners that put them in legal jeapordy, and using an unmodified LGPL, putting their users in legal jeapordy (unless we all go to ELF and modify further the Linux ELF shared library implementation, etc.). All a lot of pain to resolve a problem that shouldn't have come into existance in the first place. > > The small fraction running Motif. It's too big to ship static > > executables. > > Require shared libraries. > > Precisely my point. Teeny weeny tiny market slice. Not realistic for > commerical products, except in niches. Admittedly, those niches can > be quite lucrative, but they are still little niches. You don't argue that X is teeny (relative to the UNIX market -- the mismanagement of the UNIX market by the big 3 is another discussion entirely). A common GUI is only possible if everyone adopts the same standard, and the big 3 aren't about to dump Motif and adopt Tk. > Hey, I'd never cripple myself with a straightjacket like that. I'm > making a real-world argument from personal goals and values. > That being the case, this is no longer appropriate to > "hackers". Thus I shall refrain from further follow-ups on this > subject. 8-). > You can have the last word. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 15:11:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA17079 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17069 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA05133; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:09:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112209.PAA05133@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:09:24 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604111934.PAA10893@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Apr 11, 96 03:34:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Well, two wrongs don't make a right. > > This kind of rhetoric just pegs my bullshit meter. Pegs my pun meter: But two Wrights make an airplane". > > Sorry Kaleb, but xf86config is a creeping undead abortion from the > > foulest pit of Hell. > > I guess XFree86 has the same sort of problem that FreeBSD does in getting > people interested in writing essential utilities that don't have the glamor > of hacking the kernel or the X server. Yes, exactly the #1 problem in both camps. Everyone builds foundations, but no one build walls. The only thing you can do is correct crooked places in your foundations to make it trivial for others to build straight walls. If I have a good foundation, the walls don't matter: I can put my roof on posts that go to the foundation, and if someone wants walls, they can haul in bales of straw, cover them in chicken wire, and stucco the chicken wire to get walls. If the foundation (the exposed interface) for the config file weren't pretty much "read only", there's be a config writing tool for XFree86 already. If there was a common device configuration API in FreeBSD, there would be an "add_disk" utility. > Some have asserted that it's too much to ask people to change a line > in their XF86Config file from "XkbSymbols us(pc101)" to "XkbSymbols > us(pc101)+de" because that's "hacker meat." Frankly this rates as one > of the more specious arguments I've ever heard. This isn't Micro$oft > Windoze after all. Frankly, it is "hacker meat". Like adding a disk in FreeBSD. "Micro$oft Windoze" is successful because it "fixes" these "problems". Note the quote marks -- they denote target market issues which you are both ignoring. If the "Micro$oft Windoze" market is the one you want to take over, well then the "hacker meat" has to go -- or be hidden by uniformity. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 15:22:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA17801 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17795 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA28327; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:21:56 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA20819; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:21:55 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA06483; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:01:21 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604112201.AAA06483@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Need help with possible fbsd bug To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:01:19 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chuck@bus.net (Chuck O'Donnell) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Chuck O'Donnell" at Apr 10, 96 06:55:34 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Chuck O'Donnell wrote: While there's admittedly some bogosity with the pty handling (simple evidence: run ``cat < /dev/ttypf'' in one window, and say ``echo hello > /dev/ptypf'' in another one -- nothing will show up in the first window), a couple of nits: > so jove is being told that the write was successful, but 0 > bytes were written! Jove only checks whether the write was > successful, and doesn't pay attention to the length reported by > write. Jove will not retry this write, although that would be > reasonable. I would consider this an error: NAME write, writev - write output ... When using non-blocking I/O on objects such as sockets that are subject to flow control, write() and writev() may write fewer bytes than request- ed; the return value must be noted, and the remainder of the operation should be retried when possible. Now it's arguable whether a pty counts as ``subject to flow control'', but a short write is IMHO not an exception. > Notice that the amount returned by the read was the length > requested by bash. I think that a pty should return at most a > line at a time, even if the read requested more. What does make you think this? Tty's are not inherently line-bound, so if there were more than a line available (regardles of your actual problem with the multiple copies here), why should a read() only return one line? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 15:23:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA17867 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17853 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA28331; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:21:59 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA20820; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:21:59 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA06535; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:09:03 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604112209.AAA06535@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: PPP routing problem To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:09:02 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at Apr 11, 96 10:15:51 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Don't use proxyarp. :) > > > I'm not, or at least not to the best of my knowledge. OKay, now > I feel stupid...how do I disable proxyarp? How do I know if I'm using it? Well, of course, you don't need to have proxyarp. It's quite possible that your PPP client was invisible from the outside world. Proxyarp is just `arp -s', e.g. from within the ip-up script. It's used to ``wire'' a PPP (or SLIP) external host into your local ethernet, so the PPP gateway will act as a proxy, using its own ethernet address on behalf of the remote PPP end. Nevertheless, you've assigned your remote PPP machine an address out of the range of your local ethernet. Everything works fine as long as this machine is connected. Now, the machine disconnects, the interface route out to it disappears, but as soon as the next packet for this IP address arrives, a regular ARP resolve is attempted. It never succeeds, but the half-baked entry to link#1 remains in the routing table. The only workaround i've found for it by now (short of understanding the routing code in the kernel) was to run ``arp -d'' for this IP address in the ip-up script, and retrying the ifconfig. This still leaves a minor window where a new incoming packet for this IP address could trigger another ARP attempt. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 15:58:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA20611 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (root@digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20606 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (bogawa@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA09613; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:57:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:57:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Bryan Ogawa at Work To: Richard Chang cc: Satoshi Asami , hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Richard Chang wrote: > On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Satoshi Asami wrote: > > > * > olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. > > * > > > * > Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. > > * > > * I ran FreeBSD since 1.0GAMMA but does olvwm look like motif/fvwm > > * in any way since both of these allow hitting alt-F7/F8(fvwm) and > > * alt-tab(motif) to go to the next window.... What window manager does > > * XFree86 come with? > > > > Guys, please look at the ports collection. Xview toolkit and olvwm > > are both in there and have been working fine for quite some time. > > > > By the way, if you want a mwm lookalike, go for fvwm, and for an (HP) > > vuewm lookalike, ctwm. > > Do all of these windows managers have a way on the keyboard to > switch between windows? I can't talk about others, but fvwm 1 does. It can be more erratic than the one in MS Windows (which works according to a pretty good system, actually), but it's bound by default to Alt-F7 and Alt-F8... I also wish Circulate-Up and Circulate-Down were inverses of each other. That would make me happy. bryan > > Richard > > Bryan K. Ogawa Questions or Problems with NetVoyage? help@netvoyage.net Check out the NetVoyage HelpWeb at.. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 15:58:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA20677 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA20670 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA20214 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:59:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: schizo.cdsnet.net: mrcpu owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:59:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: warning: maxusers > 64 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Why does it care? (2.1-stable, supped yesterday. (4/10)) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 16:07:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA21941 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com ([204.160.242.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA21934 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.2]) by horst.bfd.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19188; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:08:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: Richard Chang cc: ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Richard Chang wrote: > On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Satoshi Asami wrote: > > > Guys, please look at the ports collection. Xview toolkit and olvwm > > are both in there and have been working fine for quite some time. > > > > By the way, if you want a mwm lookalike, go for fvwm, and for an (HP) > > vuewm lookalike, ctwm. > > Do all of these windows managers have a way on the keyboard to > switch between windows? You can certainly configure fvwm do do this, usually on Alt-Tab. fvwm also allows for modules, which is nice. One of the modules available (currently only for fvwm95) gives me the *ONE* feature I like from Win95, which is a bar with a button on it for each window, so I can click on a button and go to that window (uniconifying as necessary). Now if only the bugger would go on the right of the screen instead of the top or the bottom. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 16:17:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA22592 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA22572 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA20327 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:18:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: schizo.cdsnet.net: mrcpu owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:18:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: SMC Etherpower 10/100? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is it supported in the latest -stable? I see other SMC cards, but not the etherpower, although I thought that was what WC was using. I only need it in 10MBit mode for now, anything special need to be done? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 16:29:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA23358 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maui.com (root@waena.mrtc.maui.com [199.4.33.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA23353 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caliban.dihelix.com (caliban.dihelix.com [199.4.33.251]) by maui.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA22042; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:29:27 -1000 Received: (from langfod@localhost) by caliban.dihelix.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id NAA19322; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:29:13 -1000 (HST) Message-Id: <199604112329.NAA19322@caliban.dihelix.com> Subject: Re: pgcc kernel compiles automated To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:29:13 -1000 (HST) From: "David Langford" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199604111847.NAA00908@compound.think.com> from "Tony Kimball" at Apr 11, 96 01:47:59 pm From: "David Langford" X-blank-line: This space intentionaly left blank. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are you actually using "-mpentium"? IF not I am not sure that using pgcc actually has an advantage :) >To eliminate those annoying manual interventions in making kernels >using pgcc, here is a trivial script. I just say 'make CC=ccc' >It assumes that the distribution cc is renamed to kcc, pgcc is >installed as gcc > ># >#!/bin/sh ># ># /usr/local/bin/ccc ># ># script to permit optimal compilation of the kernel using pgcc ># with work-arounds for bugs and other inconveniences ># > > >for i in $* >do > case $i in > ../../kern/kern_xxx.c) # pgcc bug -- use this as an > # opportunity to hook in the > # missing run-time without > # touching the makefile > if gcc $* ../../libkern/muldi3.c ; then > echo gcc -O compile done > ld -r -o kern_xxx2.o kern_xxx.o muldi3.o || exit 1 > mv -f kern_xxx2.o kern_xxx.o > exit 0; > else > echo kern_xxx gcc -O failed > exit 1 > fi > ;; > *) > ;; > esac >done > >if ! gcc -O6 -fomit-frame-pointer $* ; then # pgcc bug > rm -f cc1.core > if ! gcc -O3 -fomit-frame-pointer$* ; then # assembly syntax problem > rm -f cc1.core > if ! kcc -O $* ; then # *your* problem > echo All compilers failed. > exit 1 > else > echo kcc -O compile done. > fi > else > echo gcc -O3 compile done. > fi >else > echo gcc -O6 compile done. >fi >exit 0 > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 17:09:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA25889 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA25884 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Thu, 11 Apr 96 20:08:52 -0400 Received: from compound.think.com ([206.10.99.158]) by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Thu, 11 Apr 96 20:08:49 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.think.com (8.7.5/8.6.112) id TAA03198; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:08:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:08:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604120008.TAA03198@compound.think.com> From: Tony Kimball To: langfod@dihelix.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604112329.NAA19322@caliban.dihelix.com> (langfod@dihelix.com) Subject: Re: pgcc kernel compiles automated Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:29:13 -1000 (HST) From: "David Langford" Are you actually using "-mpentium"? IF not I am not sure that using pgcc actually has an advantage :) ; gcc -mpentium -O6 -fomit-frame-pointer t.c -o pentium -lm ; gcc -O6 -fomit-frame-pointer t.c -o generic -lm ; kcc -O6 -fomit-frame-pointer t.c -o shipped -lm ; pentium 10000 1.655895 user ; generic 10000 1.648273 user ; shipped 10000 2.133230 user As far as I can tell, -mpentium doesn't do anything statistically significant, in pgcc 2.7.2.p9 anyhow. I haven't controlled for the gcc version, though, so for all the evidence to date it could just as well be attributable to the antiquity of the shipped compiler. (t.c is a mix of floating point and pointer-chasing.) //alk From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 17:23:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA26725 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA26720 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA12735; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604120022.RAA12735@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jaye Mathisen cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SMC Etherpower 10/100? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:18:22 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:22:45 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Is it supported in the latest -stable? I see other SMC cards, but not the >etherpower, although I thought that was what WC was using. > >I only need it in 10MBit mode for now, anything special need to be done? Yes, the SMC card uses a DEC 21140 chip and is supported in 2.1R, -stable, and -current. ...and yes, that's what I'm using in wcarchive. You can use the link2 ifconfig option to switch between 100Mbit and 10Mbit. It is supposed to auto-sense, but a couple of people have reported that this is broken - I recall seeing a NetBSD commit that apparantly fixes this, but haven't had a chance to investigate. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 17:23:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA26769 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from geneva.visi.net (root@geneva.visi.net [204.71.248.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA26752 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb1.nhr.com (ppp-nhr-1-1.nhr.com [206.151.14.129]) by geneva.visi.net (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA16535 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604120020.UAA16535@geneva.visi.net> X-Sender: surfmwb@mail.nhr.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@Freebsd.org From: Mark Bernard Subject: unable to mount / Sender: owner-hackers@Freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I currently have release 2.0 loaded on a system I use for an internet email server. All of a sudden today while a remote session was logged in trying to telnet out to another it reported no available network sessions available..while being the only one logged in... Then I went to the console to log in and no matter which of my logins including root would allow access. All reported invalid username. Unfortunately, I had no other option that I know of so I powered down the system thinking I could then fsck the system and go about my business..instead the kernel runs properly until it reaches mounting the /. It reports the / was unmounted improperly and locks up. What can be done without a reload, if anything? An what can I do to make the reload easier of Release 2.1? I've never done a complete load before. Thanks for your help. Mark From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 17:25:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA27036 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA27018 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA12750; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604120024.RAA12750@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jaye Mathisen cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: warning: maxusers > 64 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:59:49 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:24:24 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Why does it care? (2.1-stable, supped yesterday. (4/10)) It doesn't care. It is only warning you that you might be doing something stupid. maxusers is used to size many kernel data structures and too large a value might cause you problems depending on how much memory you have and how large the number is. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 17:29:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA27460 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA27455 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA08947; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:27:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball), hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:22:23 PDT." <199604111922.MAA04557@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:27:53 -0700 Message-ID: <8945.829268873@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I disagree profoundly. Tk is the closest thing to a standard. > > Moreover, Tk is portable to the major non-unix platforms, > > while Motif is not. > > Tk is interpreted. This is a *HUGE* drawback if what you are > selling is a commercial product. That's not actually a drawback if you're just trying to use it as a Motif replacement. Look at the TCL/Tk book, Terry, and you'll see that there's a C API for all the Tk functions as well. I can construct user interfaces with Tk without writing a single line of TCL code. Naturally, I'll totally throw away my rapid prototyping abilities as a result, but if this were really important for some reason then that'd be an option. There are also Tcl/Tk compilers on this horizon that promise to give one the best of both worlds and, finally, if commercial protection is all you want then you can also compile the Tcl or Tk code into your final production binary as an encrypted string and have a little bootstrap decrypt it before passing it to Tcl_Eval(). > Tk has Motif drag-and-drop interoperability? This I have got to see... I think you may be misinterpreting him. Tk has a powerful D&D mechanism, yes, though I doubt that it's Motif compatible. This is probably a feature. :-) One thing people also frequently neglect is that Tk is a *much nicer* environment than Motif! I can't count the number of times that I've had my interface 98% complete and then run smack into the boundry cases where I've got something I want to represent graphically but none of the available objects are going to do it for me. I either end up writing my own Motif widget, which is a real pain in the butt and can easily take twice the time it takes me to write the code that USES the damn thing, or I construct an inferior interface that makes a best effort attempt with the existing stuff. Tk gives me a very nice "canvas" widget which allows me to create very arbitrarily rendered interface objects and bind actions to them just like the higher level objects. Don't knock this one until you've tried it, seriously! I know, you're now going to come back with the argument that one can trivially write a blah blah blah widget in Motif (probably using the word "virtualize" at least once :-) but that's not the point - I don't WANT to have to write custom frobs for Motif each time I want to display a triangular button or a flipping-page widget or whatever, nor do I want to have to reinvent the generalized canvas widget there. I also know about the "gadget" mechanism in Xt, but that presents a much much lower level interface than Tk's canvas gives me. I know that I could also encapsulate the Tk canvas object into a Motif application fairly easily, but if I'm going to drag libTk into my application as it is then I might as well just throw out Motif and use Tk for everything - such a huge application just to get the dubious benefits of Motif I don't want or need. Jordan P.S. And yes, I *have* used Motif in commercial software. I know very well what it can and cannot do. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 17:38:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA28210 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA28204 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA08966; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:38:04 -0700 (PDT) To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: Tony Kimball , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pgcc kernel compiles automated In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:42:30 PDT." <199604111942.MAA03043@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:38:04 -0700 Message-ID: <8964.829269484@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Does the new kernel run any faster ? How would you know? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 17:52:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA29690 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29678 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA09011; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:52:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Tony Kimball cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:26:31 CDT." <199604112126.QAA01909@compound.think.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:52:10 -0700 Message-ID: <9009.829270330@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > xf turned out tcl7.3/tk3.6 code. I understand there are patches to > support a more modern incarnation as well, but my sense is that people > doing tcl/tk find gui-builders largely superfluous, mostly because the > geometry managers handle the layout issues that people use gui > builders to take care of. xf would need substantial enhancement in > order to parallel any of the commerical resource editors. Speak for yourself! :-) I find the lack of a truly decent GUI builder to be an impediment to writing complex Tk apps. A good builder, of which OI's ObjectBuilder was one of the finest examples I've seen, lets you do far more than simply assign the positions of things. It lets you specify the callbacks for various objects without having to know the specific callback behavior of the object in question, it lets you play with attributes such as font, color, geometry and so on very trivially, often with various very nice to use pallete editors which really cut down on the amount of manual lookup you'd need to do if you were banging the Tk code out by hand. I'm still waiting for a good one. Xf was gross, and obviously written by someone unclear on the concept of how he was supposed to be making the programmer's job easier, not harder. I've heard that SpecTCL is nicer, but I haven't gotten around to building a version of wish4.1 with the blt_table compiled in yet, so I haven't tested it. > I know you are quite fond of GUI builders. My experience is perhaps > less glowing than your own. (Mine is based on about a year spent > inside Visual C++, and a few months inside AppBuilder and TCL on the You picked some dogs - there are much better examples of what you can do with a good GUI builder than these.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 17:55:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA29837 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29831 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA09028; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:54:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Tony Kimball cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pgcc kernel compiles automated In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:53:25 CDT." <199604111953.OAA01369@compound.think.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:54:25 -0700 Message-ID: <9025.829270465@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I have not benchmarked. This is a personal machine, so reality means > nothing to me, merely perception. That having been said, I will > repeat my earlier comment: It's a more noticable difference (and the > more so since a make world and rebuilding emacs) than was changing > from a 5x86-120GP/UMC MoBo to a P-100/Triton. I really do wish that you could run some benchmarks to test this out. The human brain is notorious for altering incoming data to fit preconceptions, and I hardly think that I need to tell you that your perceived "noticable difference" is about as credible as Uri Geller bending spoons in a bench press. We need some hard numbers here. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 18:05:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA01161 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA01131 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12166; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:04:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:04:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: Terry Lambert cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: <199604112128.OAA05031@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > By the way, if you want a mwm lookalike, go for fvwm, and for an (HP) > > > vuewm lookalike, ctwm. > > > > Do all of these windows managers have a way on the keyboard to > > switch between windows? > > The ones mentioned have the ability to have accelerators bound, though > I know that at least one of them does not have them bound by default. > > Ie: not in the default configuration as distributed. Hmmm, how do you have them bound since it's not in the manpages... Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 18:07:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA01620 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA01582 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12451; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:07:25 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:07:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: Bryan Ogawa at Work cc: Satoshi Asami , hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Bryan Ogawa at Work wrote: > On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Richard Chang wrote: > > > On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Satoshi Asami wrote: > > > > > * > olvwm or something like it should be part of the OPEN Look toolkit. > > > * > > > > * > Long long time we had all this stuff running on FreeBSD. > > > * > > > * I ran FreeBSD since 1.0GAMMA but does olvwm look like motif/fvwm > > > * in any way since both of these allow hitting alt-F7/F8(fvwm) and > > > * alt-tab(motif) to go to the next window.... What window manager does > > > * XFree86 come with? > > > > > > Guys, please look at the ports collection. Xview toolkit and olvwm > > > are both in there and have been working fine for quite some time. > > > > > > By the way, if you want a mwm lookalike, go for fvwm, and for an (HP) > > > vuewm lookalike, ctwm. > > > > Do all of these windows managers have a way on the keyboard to > > switch between windows? > > I can't talk about others, but fvwm 1 does. It can be more erratic than > the one in MS Windows (which works according to a pretty good system, > actually), but it's bound by default to Alt-F7 and Alt-F8... I also wish > Circulate-Up and Circulate-Down were inverses of each other. That would > make me happy. I know fvwm does but somehow like is there a way to make it so it will do the up and down in a certain order? Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 18:10:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA02225 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA02194 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12661; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:09:57 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:09:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" cc: ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Eric J. Schwertfeger wrote: > On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Richard Chang wrote: > > > On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Satoshi Asami wrote: > > > > > Guys, please look at the ports collection. Xview toolkit and olvwm > > > are both in there and have been working fine for quite some time. > > > > > > By the way, if you want a mwm lookalike, go for fvwm, and for an (HP) > > > vuewm lookalike, ctwm. > > > > Do all of these windows managers have a way on the keyboard to > > switch between windows? > > You can certainly configure fvwm do do this, usually on Alt-Tab. fvwm > also allows for modules, which is nice. One of the modules available > (currently only for fvwm95) gives me the *ONE* feature I like from Win95, > which is a bar with a button on it for each window, so I can click on a > button and go to that window (uniconifying as necessary). Now if only > the bugger would go on the right of the screen instead of the top or the > bottom. :-) Hmmm, I am using fvwm and it only does it with Alt-F7/F8 and not Alt-Tab, how did you get it to work with alt-TAB? Also, is the bar with a button actually a feature that comes out of the package or do you need to configure fvwm to do it? Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 18:13:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA02839 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (root@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us [198.82.200.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA02826 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kmitch@localhost) by phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA17026 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:12:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Keith Mitchell Message-Id: <199604120112.VAA17026@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Subject: unknown error message To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:12:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Today, one of the machines I admin spontaneously rebooted, and left the folloing message in syslog: /kernel: ger input (probably hardware) error, PID 1 What does this mean?? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 18:19:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA04018 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (root@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us [198.82.200.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04001 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kmitch@localhost) by phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA17068 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:19:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Keith Mitchell Message-Id: <199604120119.VAA17068@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Subject: Dump and 2.1R problem?? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:19:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are there any known problems with dump and 2.1R. Recently, I performed a level 0 dump on a 2.1R system (ALL UFS) and got input/output (possibly hardware) errors. There were also some errors about the controller card being dead (NCR53C810). The only thing that actually made it in syslog were the following: vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 0 failure swap_pager: I/O error - pagein failed; blkno 456, size 4096, error 5 etc. The interesting thing was that everything would work fine in single user mode, but not in multi-user (even though no one else was online). Sorry I can't be more specific here, but the errors scrolled two quickly and once the error occured I could not do anything with the system. Every command I tried resulted in an input/ouput error. Any Ideas? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 18:26:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA04837 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from edna.bus.net (edna.bus.net [207.41.24.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA04829 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by edna.bus.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA06549; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:25:26 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:25:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chuck O'Donnell" To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fbsd pty bug In-Reply-To: <199604112201.AAA06483@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joerg, I have forwarded your message to D. Hugh Redelmeier , who is one of the authors of jove. The comments you referred to are his and I am not qualified to answer. As a side note, if jove were to have retried the write with the fbsd pty bug, this would have made for some real trouble! But I believe that they will make the proper changes to jove now that it has been brought to their attention. Thanks for your interest. Regards, Chuck On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Chuck O'Donnell wrote: > > While there's admittedly some bogosity with the pty handling (simple > evidence: run ``cat < /dev/ttypf'' in one window, and say ``echo hello > > /dev/ptypf'' in another one -- nothing will show up in the first > window), a couple of nits: > > > so jove is being told that the write was successful, but 0 > > bytes were written! Jove only checks whether the write was > > successful, and doesn't pay attention to the length reported by > > write. Jove will not retry this write, although that would be > > reasonable. > > I would consider this an error: > > NAME > write, writev - write output > ... > When using non-blocking I/O on objects such as sockets that are subject > to flow control, write() and writev() may write fewer bytes than request- > ed; the return value must be noted, and the remainder of the operation > should be retried when possible. > > Now it's arguable whether a pty counts as ``subject to flow control'', > but a short write is IMHO not an exception. > > > Notice that the amount returned by the read was the length > > requested by bash. I think that a pty should return at most a > > line at a time, even if the read requested more. > > What does make you think this? Tty's are not inherently line-bound, > so if there were more than a line available (regardles of your actual > problem with the multiple copies here), why should a read() only > return one line? > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 18:42:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA05835 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA05830 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA21239 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: schizo.cdsnet.net: mrcpu owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:43:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Hmmm, OK, SMC driver is the de driver. Is it broke? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 1 box has been running fine for a couple months as a news server, with a 3com 3c509 (2.1-stable from about Feb). Swapped the 509 for the SMC etherpower, and updated the src to 4/10/96 -stable, and the box locks up after a few seconds of use. Seems to be related to the ethernet card, as it works fine if I put the 3com back. It also works fine if I boot the old 2.1-RELEASE generic kernel. It doesn't work with a current -stable generic or custom kernel. Symptoms are always the same. It boots fine, runs a few minutes, and after just a bit of network I/O, it fails. Tried a different etherpower 10/100 card, and same thing. Box is a P5-120, award BIOS, PNP on, a 946C, crappy VGA, and the SMC card are all that's in it. Any tips appreciated. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 19:24:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA09239 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA09234 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA00504; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:22:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604120222.TAA00504@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:22:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <8945.829268873@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 11, 96 05:27:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > One thing people also frequently neglect is that Tk is a *much nicer* > environment than Motif! I can't count the number of times that I've > had my interface 98% complete and then run smack into the boundry > cases where I've got something I want to represent graphically but > none of the available objects are going to do it for me. I either end > up writing my own Motif widget, which is a real pain in the butt and > can easily take twice the time it takes me to write the code that USES > the damn thing, or I construct an inferior interface that makes a best > effort attempt with the existing stuff. Tk gives me a very nice > "canvas" widget which allows me to create very arbitrarily rendered > interface objects and bind actions to them just like the higher level > objects. Don't knock this one until you've tried it, seriously! I have tried it. The problem is that new widgets are a bad idea, in general. "Compatible with extensions" is a bad thing, and all you really succeed in doing is violating style guidelines. In theory, your users are trained to use programs that conform to the style guidelines, not particular programs by name. Yes, I know that apps developers want to make their applications "value added" so they stand out and aren't just commodity items. For a word processor (for instance), IMO, you do this by making the spell chack run faster, not by adding "cool colored shadows" or "page flipping frobs" different from the ones supported by Motif 2.x already. > I know, you're now going to come back with the argument that one can > trivially write a blah blah blah widget in Motif (probably using the > word "virtualize" at least once :-) but that's not the point - I don't > WANT to have to write custom frobs for Motif each time I want to > display a triangular button or a flipping-page widget or whatever, nor > do I want to have to reinvent the generalized canvas widget there. Wrongo. I'm going to say that using custom frobs is bad, and that if you need a triangular button, your user interface design is bad. If you succeed in creating your little triangle, where in the users previous training does the information on how to use it come from? The name of the game for a software buyer is making users productive, not getting "hackerware" with "neat frobs". A user is most productive if they do not need additional training. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 19:25:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA09339 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA09331 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA00517; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:23:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604120223.TAA00517@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Chang) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:23:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Richard Chang" at Apr 11, 96 06:04:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > By the way, if you want a mwm lookalike, go for fvwm, and for an (HP) > > > > vuewm lookalike, ctwm. > > > > > > Do all of these windows managers have a way on the keyboard to > > > switch between windows? > > > > The ones mentioned have the ability to have accelerators bound, though > > I know that at least one of them does not have them bound by default. > > > > Ie: not in the default configuration as distributed. > > Hmmm, how do you have them bound since it's not in the manpages... You read the source code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 19:35:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA10086 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA10076 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id MAA20656 Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:34:27 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199604120234.MAA20656@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: PPP routing problem To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:34:25 +1000 (EST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199604112209.AAA06535@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Apr 12, 96 00:09:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > The only workaround i've found for it by now (short of understanding > the routing code in the kernel) was to run ``arp -d'' for this IP > address in the ip-up script, and retrying the ifconfig. This still > leaves a minor window where a new incoming packet for this IP address > could trigger another ARP attempt. You could run gated, which seems to keep track of the links that are up (or down) correctly and tells the kernel, michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 20:35:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA14109 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA14104 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA05440; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:32:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199604120332.UAA05440@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: wong@rogerswave.ca, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:36:19 PDT." <199604112036.NAA04732@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:32:57 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert said: > > >>> Terry Lambert said: > > > > > AST's are easy. It's the stacks they need to run while your progra m > > > > > is already using your only stack that are annoying. > > > > Is this a problem? Lets look it at it from a different angle what happens > > when the user's process stack space is exhausted-- the process dies. > > > > So what is wrong with allocating a fix sized stack for handling ast events ? > > It is common to put a huge amount of code in an AST, including > potentially blocking system calls and calls to start other > activity that could, itself, result in an AST. Which is to say > that a small fixed size stack is unacceptable. > > In many cases, the entire program operates in nothing but AST's -- > if you have the VMS source code, look at the PHONE utility. BTW: I have implemented file servers based on ASTs -- old hat stuff. I still think that a small stack size for handling AST's will suffice. Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 22:04:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA20567 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.pu.ru (gw.pu.ru [193.124.85.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA20561 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (root@localhost) by gw.pu.ru (8.6.10/8.6.6) with UUCP id JAA03212 for freebsd.org!hackers; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:02:23 +0400 Received: from lambert.org (uucp@localhost) by localhost (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id IAA06540; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:58:34 +0400 Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by gw.pu.ru (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id AAA25258; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:30:27 +0400 Organization: SPb State University Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA04681; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:22:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604112022.NAA04681@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (Alexey Pialkin) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:22:53 -0700 (MST) Cc: FreeBSD.ORG!sos@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, riogrande.cs.tcu.edu!tam@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, FreeBSD.ORG!hackers@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru In-Reply-To: <199604111120.PAA01473@localhost> from "Alexey Pialkin" at Apr 11, 96 03:20:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > For what else you are going to use VM86 ? The main & sole purpose of it is > 8086 emulation => DOS emulation. The main purpose of VM86() in my book is BIOS driver support and fallback support for otherwise unsupportable hardware. DOS emulation is just an undesirable side-effect, since I believe that emulation environments should be implemented in such a way as to require particular processor architectures to function. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 22:06:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA20756 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA20723 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA04218; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:03:22 -0600 Message-Id: <199604120503.XAA04218@rover.village.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. Cc: Tony Kimball , terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:52:10 PDT Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:03:22 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : A good builder, of which OI's ObjectBuilder : was one of the finest examples I've seen, lets you do far more than : simply assign the positions of things. thank you. : I'm still waiting for a good one. Xf was gross, and obviously written : by someone unclear on the concept of how he was supposed to be making : the programmer's job easier, not harder. I've heard that SpecTCL is : nicer, but I haven't gotten around to building a version of wish4.1 : with the blt_table compiled in yet, so I haven't tested it. XF totally sucked. I can say that because I've written a good builder. SpecTCL is the closest thing I've seen to something for free that has almost as good an interface as OB. It still gets menus wrong by making them a special case. They should be just drag cells, or representations of cells onto the menu to grow it. Pull rights should be had by dropping a menu on a cell. Popup dialog boxes likewise. Everyone else seems to make these things hard because the silly toolkit they are using makes them hard :-(. OI made a lot of things easy, and a few hard. Even the hard ones needed to be papered over to make OB usable. Ok, enough soap boxing.... Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 22:07:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA20814 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA20801 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA04235; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:04:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199604120504.XAA04235@rover.village.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. Cc: Terry Lambert , alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball), hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:27:53 PDT Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:04:46 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : I know, you're now going to come back with the argument that one can : trivially write a blah blah blah widget in Motif (probably using the : word "virtualize" at least once :-) but that's not the point - I don't : WANT to have to write custom frobs for Motif each time I want to : display a triangular button or a flipping-page widget or whatever, nor : do I want to have to reinvent the generalized canvas widget there. Trivial and custom widgets and Motif cannot be used in the same breath. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 22:13:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA21553 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA21531 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA04252; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:10:26 -0600 Message-Id: <199604120510.XAA04252@rover.village.org> To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:22:47 PDT Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:10:26 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : Wrongo. I'm going to say that using custom frobs is bad, and that : if you need a triangular button, your user interface design is bad. : If you succeed in creating your little triangle, where in the users : previous training does the information on how to use it come from? Hmmm. We found in OI that when you customized the toolkit (as a user) then you would be able to 1) reuse code all over the place, and 2) enforce more easily style guides built on top of OSF/Motif. Many companies have additional rules based on their business practices that work well in code. If you have 50 screens for doing, say, stock market things, then having one entry field that knows how to deal with the various conventions of price in all of them is a good thing, rather than 50 slightly different ones.... The "I gotta subclass everything, because I have to show how big an OO (or C++) dick I have" is clearly wrong, but used wisely customized widgets can be a big win. I know that I eliminated about 1000 lines of code from a 5k line resource editor in the builder by making subclasses that groked the basic concept of setting attributes to values, then deriving subclasses from them that groked other things, displayed things differently, etc. This was a big win and let some fairly powerful extensions be written that I hadn't originally envisioned but turned out to be easy in the framework provided. I really can't see how you'd think that training would be higher when you wisely subclass. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 22:36:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA24293 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from metronet.com (root@mail.metronet.com [192.245.137.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA24288 Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.metronet.com (dal92.metronet.com) by metronet.com with SMTP id AA05794 (5.67a/IDA1.5hp); Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:35:07 -0500 Received: (from rick@localhost) by localhost.metronet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA00600; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:31:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:31:16 -0500 (CDT) From: rbarton X-Sender: rick@localhost To: Jake Hamby Cc: Terry Lambert , lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, rbarton wrote: > > > Since we're on the subject of GUIs... any word on Fresco? Is there > > anybody working or considering this? > > I'm perfectly happy with Motif, using the Doug Young method of wrapping an > entire widget tree into a C++ class, rather than the thin-wrapper approach > of encapsulating every widget. I think that objects should correspond to My concern isn't on the language as much as it is the look-n-feel, and that it's free. :-) > As for Fresco, I was under the impression that it was an experimental > component of X11R6, similar to LBX (the low-bandwidth X extension I found I didn't know it was just experimental. I just thought it was going to lean toward a good interface, not a total redo of all the widgets. > Personally, if I wanted to move away from Motif, but still use X and Unix, > I would choose Java (which, in the Unix implementation, is itself based on > Motif). Java is OOP, and cross-platform too, and in theory, could be > easily integrated with C++ programs in the manner of TCL/Tk (although it > isn't common practice, but it is how Java's standard classes are bound to > Motif and other standard libraries). I like Motif too. I haven't tried integrating TCL/TK into any C/C++ apps though. I suppose I'll break down and purchase Motif some time. rick | o________________________|________________________o \/ o \/ any landing you can walk \___/ away from is a good one / | \ rbarton@metronet.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 22:37:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA24451 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA24440 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rmallory@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA15436; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:41:40 -0700 From: Rob Mallory Message-Id: <199604120541.WAA15436@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: pgcc kernel compiles automated To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: langfod@dihelix.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604120008.TAA03198@compound.think.com> from "Tony Kimball" at Apr 11, 96 07:08:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:29:13 -1000 (HST) > From: "David Langford" > > Are you actually using "-mpentium"? IF not I am not sure that using pgcc > actually has an advantage :) > in the Makefile after running ./configure pentium-unknown-freebsd2.2 you should notice "TARGET_CPU_DEFAULT=4" at the top. in other words, -mpentium is always on. you should notice a difference if you compile pgcc with TARGET_CPU_DEFAULT=2 (486) or ~=0, like freebsd does, you might notice a difference with the math flags;) ...I'm still unhappy that pgcc made it into "ports/lang"... On my system, it has been, and (looks for some time) will remain in my /ports/devel subdir. try the binaries on ftp://tns.csusb.edu/pub/unix/pentium/xv and mpeg_play. they might be a little old, but do some "benchmarks" on them against the latest pgcc compiled mpeg_play and xv. :) In my opinion, (John,David,and Bruce will most likely agree) pgcc compiled kernels are very dangerous to say the least. <> -Rob Mallory [rmallory@csusb.edu] From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 22:56:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA26145 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boner.mrami.com (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA26129 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by boner.mrami.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA08469; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:56:03 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:56:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Tony Kimball , terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: <9009.829270330@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > xf turned out tcl7.3/tk3.6 code. I understand there are patches to > > support a more modern incarnation as well, but my sense is that people > > doing tcl/tk find gui-builders largely superfluous, mostly because the > > geometry managers handle the layout issues that people use gui > > builders to take care of. xf would need substantial enhancement in > > order to parallel any of the commerical resource editors. > > Speak for yourself! :-) > > I find the lack of a truly decent GUI builder to be an impediment to > writing complex Tk apps. Hear, hear! I wrote a little sysconfig/netstart munger for work. Even as bad as xf is comared to real GUI builders, it made a noticable dent in my development time. (Of course, I was learning Tcl and Tk as I went, so I may have a worse impression of xf than is reasonable... but I doubt it :). I also have had the benefit of working with real GUI builders, and they are nice. This opinion stems from the fact that for most of the applications we do, the code behind the interface is trivial (take the data, format it, shove it into the database), so the interface gets lots of development. Using a GUI builder drastically reduces the number of severe (and subtle) bugs in the design. GUI builders help interface design the same way WYSIWYG word processors help document design: you can see mistakes as soon as you make them. Don't knock this asset. Marc. -- A tautology is a thing which is tautological. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 23:17:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA27690 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA27685 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA31744; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:12:24 +1000 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:12:24 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199604120612.QAA31744@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: chuck@bus.net, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: fbsd pty bug Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > bytes were written! Jove only checks whether the write was >> > successful, and doesn't pay attention to the length reported by >> > write. Jove will not retry this write, although that would be >> > reasonable. >> >> I would consider this an error: >> >> NAME >> write, writev - write output >> ... >> When using non-blocking I/O on objects such as sockets that are subject ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> to flow control, write() and writev() may write fewer bytes than request- >> ed; the return value must be noted, and the remainder of the operation >> should be retried when possible. >> >> Now it's arguable whether a pty counts as ``subject to flow control'', >> but a short write is IMHO not an exception. A short write shouldn't happen for blocking I/O (O_NONBLOCK clear). >> >> > Notice that the amount returned by the read was the length >> > requested by bash. I think that a pty should return at most a >> > line at a time, even if the read requested more. >> >> What does make you think this? Tty's are not inherently line-bound, >> so if there were more than a line available (regardles of your actual >> problem with the multiple copies here), why should a read() only >> return one line? Because ICANON is set. In that case, exactly one line is returned (unless the read() buffer is too small to hold the line, when as much as fits is returned). Also, if the braindamaged limit MAX_INPUT is defined in then it is guaranteed that the maximum line length is <= MAX_INPUT, so readers should be able to guarantee reading exactly one line by using a buffer size of MAX_INPUT. FreeBSD defines MAX_INPUT as 255, although the limit is currently 1024 and may change. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 23:55:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA01424 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibp.ibp.fr (ibp.ibp.fr [132.227.60.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA01412 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blaise.ibp.fr (blaise.ibp.fr [132.227.60.1]) by ibp.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with ESMTP id IAA06096 ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:54:39 +0200 Received: from (uucp@localhost) by blaise.ibp.fr (8.6.12/jtpda-5.0) with UUCP id IAA14171 ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:54:59 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.7.5/keltia-uucp-2.7) id IAA09955; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:39:13 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199604120639.IAA09955@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: async mounts (appropos 'make world') To: alk@Think.COM (Tony Kimball) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:39:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604112135.QAA01990@compound.think.com> from Tony Kimball at "Apr 11, 96 04:35:46 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#1872 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Tony Kimball said: > > I suggest that those timing 'make world' might find it > interesting to compare times doing the build on an async mount. My 4h50 time for "make world" (DX4/100, 32 MB all SCSI) is with async mounts for /usr/src and /usr/obj. It makes a big difference, especially with the "clean" stage. Yes I like to live dangerously :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #11: Tue Apr 9 20:14:48 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 11 23:57:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA01700 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01677 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA00548; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:52:14 +1000 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:52:14 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199604120652.QAA00548@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: craig@seabass.progroup.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GNU binutils port Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > Its getting ridiculous, considering how easy it is to import >> > the tree. NetBSD has it running, why, may I ask, is the 2.2 >> > tree not tracking gcc-2.7? >> >> Because last time people tried (2.7.2 IIRC), it failed to correctly compile >> the kernel, the X servers, and a few other things people threw at it. >Is it the compiler or the code? Probably the configuration (of gcc). The default configuration is for FreeBSD-1.1. To bring it up to date you have to extract diffs from the FreeBSD-current tree. This isn't easy because the source organization is different and the cvs history is a mess. >I tried to compile the 2.1-R with 2.7.2 and it >did not fail the compile, but the kernel was buggy. A saved make log showed >a substantial number of warnings. A make log using the 2.6.3 compiler did not >have any of those warnings. I have used the 2.7.2 compiler on Solaris 2.4 since They are only warnings and many would go away if less warnings were enabled. There would be many more if more were enabled. For the LINT kernel built on Apr 6, the warning counts were: compiler warnings (lines) -------- -------- cc 74 cc -Wall 2394 gcc-2.7.2 4694 >it was available, and I have not had any problems I could attribute to the compiler. >All of the ports I have compiled on 2.1-R have worked flawlessly (so far :*)! >Would I be better off concentrating on Linux, and waiting for FreeBSD to >catch up? Many Linux installations use gcc-2.5.8 (because it was around when the last official release of the Linux kernel (1.2.x) came out, and later versions of gcc have problems with 1.2.x (gcc-2.7.2 can't compile linux- 1.2.x because of some asm differences...). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 00:45:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA06866 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06782 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01965; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:49:16 +0300 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:49:16 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: Terry Lambert cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , terry@lambert.org, alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: <199604120222.TAA00504@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > One thing people also frequently neglect is that Tk is a *much nicer* > > environment than Motif! I can't count the number of times that I've > > had my interface 98% complete and then run smack into the boundry > > cases where I've got something I want to represent graphically but > > none of the available objects are going to do it for me. I either end > > up writing my own Motif widget, which is a real pain in the butt and > > can easily take twice the time it takes me to write the code that USES > > the damn thing, or I construct an inferior interface that makes a best > > effort attempt with the existing stuff. Tk gives me a very nice > > "canvas" widget which allows me to create very arbitrarily rendered > > interface objects and bind actions to them just like the higher level > > objects. Don't knock this one until you've tried it, seriously! > > I have tried it. > > The problem is that new widgets are a bad idea, in general. "Compatible > with extensions" is a bad thing, and all you really succeed in doing > is violating style guidelines. > > In theory, your users are trained to use programs that conform to > the style guidelines, not particular programs by name. > > Yes, I know that apps developers want to make their applications > "value added" so they stand out and aren't just commodity items. > > For a word processor (for instance), IMO, you do this by making > the spell chack run faster, not by adding "cool colored shadows" > or "page flipping frobs" different from the ones supported by > Motif 2.x already. > > > > I know, you're now going to come back with the argument that one can > > trivially write a blah blah blah widget in Motif (probably using the > > word "virtualize" at least once :-) but that's not the point - I don't > > WANT to have to write custom frobs for Motif each time I want to > > display a triangular button or a flipping-page widget or whatever, nor > > do I want to have to reinvent the generalized canvas widget there. > > Wrongo. I'm going to say that using custom frobs is bad, and that > if you need a triangular button, your user interface design is bad. > If you succeed in creating your little triangle, where in the users > previous training does the information on how to use it come from? > No. Triangular (and round and square) buttons are all the same. In some places the triangular ones should be used (in an application which presents the user with a real world like remote control thingy?). What do you think the scrollbar buttons have arrows on them? I don't think a triangular button makes the usage any harder if it used it in a place which wins from it. > The name of the game for a software buyer is making users productive, > not getting "hackerware" with "neat frobs". A user is most productive > if they do not need additional training. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > Sander Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 00:50:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA07450 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07440 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA10549 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:50:52 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA27272 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:50:51 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA09355 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:44:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604120744.JAA09355@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: PPP routing problem To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:44:04 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199604120234.MAA20656@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> from "michael butler" at Apr 12, 96 12:34:25 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As michael butler wrote: > You could run gated, which seems to keep track of the links that are up (or > down) correctly and tells the kernel, Doesn't help much either. If the link is down, it will be removed from the kernel routing table. However, since the address is out of the range of the local ethernet, resolving it will fall back to ARP then again. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 00:51:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA07492 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07483 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA10559; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:50:59 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA27274; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:50:58 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA09372; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:45:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604120745.JAA09372@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: fbsd pty bug To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:45:55 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chuck@bus.net (Chuck O'Donnell) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Chuck O'Donnell" at Apr 11, 96 09:25:26 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Chuck O'Donnell wrote: > I have forwarded your message to D. Hugh Redelmeier , > who is one of the authors of jove. The comments you referred to are his > and I am not qualified to answer. > > As a side note, if jove were to have retried the write with the fbsd pty > bug, this would have made for some real trouble! But I believe that they > will make the proper changes to jove now that it has been brought to their > attention. As another side note, i wrote a commit by Bruce Evans last night who apparently found & fixed at least one of the underlying bugs. Can you try it out? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 00:52:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA07651 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07617 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA10555; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:50:57 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA27273; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:50:57 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA09390; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:47:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604120747.JAA09390@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: unknown error message To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:47:35 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kmitch@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Keith Mitchell) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199604120112.VAA17026@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> from "Keith Mitchell" at Apr 11, 96 09:12:53 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Keith Mitchell wrote: > Today, one of the machines I admin spontaneously rebooted, and left the > folloing message in syslog: > > /kernel: ger input (probably hardware) error, PID 1 > > What does this mean?? As you wrote in your other mail: ``vnode pager input ...'' Something could not be swapped in again due to a hardware problem. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 00:52:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA07868 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07824 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA10589; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:51:40 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA27277; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:51:40 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA09481; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:51:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604120751.JAA09481@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: unable to mount / To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:51:16 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: surfmwb@nhr.com (Mark Bernard) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199604120020.UAA16535@geneva.visi.net> from "Mark Bernard" at Apr 11, 96 08:20:52 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Mark Bernard wrote: > business..instead the kernel runs properly until it reaches mounting the /. > It reports the / was unmounted improperly and locks up. > > What can be done without a reload, if anything? An what can I do to make > the reload easier of Release 2.1? I've never done a complete load before. Your root file system seems to be hosed. Get the a copy of the fixit floppy (floppies/fixit.flp from the CDROM, use rawrite.exe as usual), boot the installation floppy, select F)ixit, and enter the fixit floppy. Try to fsck your /dev/rsd0a, or /dev/rwd0a (whatever holds your root f/s). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 01:12:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA09826 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yonge.cs.toronto.edu (root@yonge.cs.toronto.edu [128.100.2.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA09820 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from redvax by yonge.cs.toronto.edu with UUCP id <86550>; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:10:02 -0400 Received: by mimosa.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA02022; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:09:40 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:09:40 -0400 From: hugh@mimosa.com ("D. Hugh Redelmeier") Message-Id: <199604120809.EAA02022@mimosa.com> To: j@uriah.heep.sax.de Cc: chuck@bus.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jovehacks@cs.toronto.edu Subject: short writes to pty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Note: I'm not on freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org. Please send any replies to me, not just the list.] [Note to jovehackers: this is an outgrowth of a discussion about a pty bug in FreeBSD that JOVE exercises.] | From: J Wunsch | To: FreeBSD hackers | Cc: Chuck O'Donnell | Subject: Re: fbsd pty bug | | As Chuck O'Donnell wrote: [talking about JOVE's write to the master-side of a pty, in the implementation of i-shell] | > so jove is being told that the write was successful, but 0 | > bytes were written! Jove only checks whether the write was | > successful, and doesn't pay attention to the length reported by | > write. Jove will not retry this write, although that would be | > reasonable. | | I would consider this an error: | | NAME | write, writev - write output | ... | When using non-blocking I/O on objects such as sockets that are subject | to flow control, write() and writev() may write fewer bytes than request- | ed; the return value must be noted, and the remainder of the operation | should be retried when possible. | | Now it's arguable whether a pty counts as ``subject to flow control'', | but a short write is IMHO not an exception. pty facilities haven't been standardized in UNIX -- POSIX doesn't cover them (at least last time I checked). They were not part of 6th or 7th edition UNIX, so the System V release 4 and BSD flavours are different (not to mention the other variants). JOVE tries to be unadventurous to increase the chance it will work with all systems. It is a UNIX convention for cooked ttys to return no more than one line per read (at least as far back as I can remember, which is to the 5th Edition). If an eof (^D) is typed, even less will be returned. At least in some pty systems, the record structure of writes to the master side comes through on the slave side. In other words, the maximum that a slave can gulp in a single read is up to the end of the chunk that was written by the master. This even applies for writes of length 0, allowing the master to simulate typing ^D on an empty line without closing the pty. I have no idea if FreeBSD preserves the record structure in this way. Can you tell me? JOVE's pty usage is line oriented (hint: don't run vi in a JOVE i-shell window!), so it is natural for it to simulate cooked mode. Since JOVE does the line editing (erase and kill processing, generating tty signals like INTR and QUIT, etc.), it is reasonable for it to impose the line structure on its writes to the master-side of the pty. I don't think that a partial write would have the right semantics in this case. Much of this reasoning has been based on experimental results: these corners are poorly documented in most UNIX systems. If you know better, please tell me. | > Notice that the amount returned by the read was the length | > requested by bash. I think that a pty should return at most a | > line at a time, even if the read requested more. | | What does make you think this? Tty's are not inherently line-bound, | so if there were more than a line available (regardles of your actual | problem with the multiple copies here), why should a read() only | return one line? This is a property of cooked mode tty input (aka canonical mode) under UNIX. I have no idea if bash is using cooked mode. I don't even know what 4.4BSD's non-canonical-mode facilities are. System V uses VMIN and VTIME to affect how many chars can be read at a time in non-canonical mode. 7th Edition only yielded one character per read in raw mode. Here is an extract from termio(7) of Solaris 2.3 (System V release 4 variant). It is describing canonical mode: This means that a program attempting to read will be suspended until an entire line has been typed. Also, no matter how many characters are requested in the read call, at most one line will be returned. It is not necessary, however, to read a whole line at once; any number of charac- ters may be requested in a read, even one, without losing information. Here is an extract from tty(4) of SunOS 3.5 (4.[123]BSD variant): In cooked mode, terminal input is processed in units of lines. A program attempting to read will normally be suspended until an entire line has been received (but see the description of SIGTTIN in Job access control and of FIONREAD in Summary, both below.) No matter how many charac- ters are requested in the read call, at most one line will be returned. It is not, however, necessary to read a whole line at once; any number of characters may be requested in a read, even one, without losing information. Hugh Redelmeier hugh@mimosa.com voice: +1 416 482-8253 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 01:16:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA10111 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10083 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA15732; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:15:21 +1000 From: David Dawes Message-Id: <199604120815.SAA15732@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:15:20 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <7382.829240624@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 11, 96 09:37:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> As opposed to knowing cryptic options, commands, and whatnot in /etc/* >> in order to run UNIX? > >Well, two wrongs don't make a right. There are many who say that the >stuff in /etc should have a nice front-end tool to encapsulate edits, >and as much as many people hate AIX I've heard many good things about >SMIT. Hackers hate it, of course, but Joe User seems to like it quite >a bit. > >> Get off your high horse. xf86config that does exactly that. > >Sorry Kaleb, but xf86config is a creeping undead abortion from the >foulest pit of Hell. I would hardly want to hold it up as a shining >paragon of anything, except perhaps how to construct utterly unusable >interfaces using shell programming. You really should give a better >example to support your argument! xf86config is all we have right now, and it is *not* a shell script (you must be thinking of the aborted (in more ways than one) ConfigXF86, which was a shell script). We need something better, but I'm happy to have xf86config rather than nothing. As to the keymap inheritance, the pre-XKB XFree86 system attempted to do the inheritance on a key-by-key basis. The XKB version is geared towards doing the inheritance on a full keymap basis -- ie, what it wants is the name of the keymap + any variations. I don't know if the old key-by-key method will fit in very well with the philosophy of XKB. As far as I know (and I could be wrong here), the two main commercial X servers in this market (the X Inside and Metro Link products), have the keymamp specified by name in some sort of config file, and don't do inhertance from the underlying keymap. This is exactly what XFree86 + XKB requires. The only difference that has really been pointed out so far is in the configuration utilities for creating and changing this config file (something we are working on right now). This is a completely separate issue from the argument between key-by-key inheritance vs the specification of a keymap by name. If the console drivers had some concept of various standard keyboard maps, and could return the name of the keyboard type/map to the application, XKB could make use of this to set a default keymap based on what the user has configured for the console. The argument about ease of configuration is an argument for not using XFree86, not an argument for not using XKB (which I wouldn't be surprised to see X Inside provide at some stage, if they don't already). Please don't confuse the two. David From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 01:21:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA10600 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10593 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA11781; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:20:57 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA27503; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:20:56 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA09743; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:07:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604120807.KAA09743@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: DVORAK keyboard drivers To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:07:55 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199604111934.PAA10893@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Apr 11, 96 03:34:49 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > Some have asserted that it's too much to ask people to change a line > in their XF86Config file from "XkbSymbols us(pc101)" to "XkbSymbols > us(pc101)+de" because that's "hacker meat." That's not the point. The point is that i would need something like XkbSymbols us(pc101)+de+hacks_by_joerg_wunsch there, where the file hacks-by-joerg-wunsch needs to be created somehow from the keyboard description files i've already got for the console driver. Likewise for all other people who are using non-standard layouts, and who do already have description files for their console drivers. Sorry, my direct mail to you bounced twice since the Xconsortium mailer still cannot handle i18n'ed mails. That's a pity. How many of the mailing list stuff do you miss since your mailer is unwilling to finally deliver it to you??? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 01:33:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA12010 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paloalto.access.hp.com (daemon@paloalto.access.hp.com [15.254.56.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA11995 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fakir.india.hp.com by paloalto.access.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA086987981; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:33:06 -0700 Received: from localhost by fakir.india.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA276558230; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:07:11 +0530 Message-Id: <199604120837.AA276558230@fakir.india.hp.com> To: Nate Williams Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Critical stdio bug? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:30:23 CST." <199604120530.XAA06324@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:07:10 +0530 From: A JOSEPH KOSHY Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "nw" == "Nate Williams" >>>>> nw> OS's, but I had them available). However, on FreeBSD the EOF doesn't nw> get flushed out when it's read. The program works correctly on some HPUX machine I could lay my hands on too. The behaviour seems to be coming from: "lib/libc/stdio/refill.c";__srefill(fp) /* SysV does not make this test; take it out for compatibility */ if (fp->_flags & __SEOF) return (EOF); The problem seems to be here (further down in the function) : fp->_r = (*fp->_read)(fp->_cookie, (char *)fp->_p, fp->_bf._size); fp->_flags &= ~__SMOD; /* buffer contents are again pristine */ if (fp->_r <= 0) { if (fp->_r == 0) fp->_flags |= __SEOF; else { fp->_r = 0; fp->_flags |= __SERR; } return (EOF); } The manual page says: The system guarantees to read the number of bytes requested if the descriptor references a normal file that has that many bytes left before the end-of-file, but in no other case. [...] If successful, the number of bytes actually read is returned. Upon read- ing end-of-file, zero is returned. Otherwise, a -1 is returned and the Thus getting a return count of 0, does not always imply end-of-file forever on the file descriptor. So isn't the check at the beginning of the function incorrect? Koshy From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 02:10:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA16530 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA16501 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA10627; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:10:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:22:47 PDT." <199604120222.TAA00504@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:10:05 -0700 Message-ID: <10625.829300205@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The problem is that new widgets are a bad idea, in general. "Compatible > with extensions" is a bad thing, and all you really succeed in doing > is violating style guidelines. Unfortunately, that simply doesn't always apply - especially to the Motif widget set which has large holes missing. It's not a matter of adding value, it's a matter of trying not to outright cripple your UI! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 02:33:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA19086 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (X14.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.217.204]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA18704 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from se@localhost) by x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA24408; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:27:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199604120927.LAA24408@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> From: se@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:27:27 +0000 In-Reply-To: Keith Mitchell "Dump and 2.1R problem??" (Apr 11, 21:19) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(2) 7/9/95) To: Keith Mitchell Subject: Re: Dump and 2.1R problem?? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 11, 21:19, Keith Mitchell wrote: } Subject: Dump and 2.1R problem?? } Are there any known problems with dump and 2.1R. } } Recently, I performed a level 0 dump on a 2.1R system (ALL UFS) and } got input/output (possibly hardware) errors. There were also some errors } about the controller card being dead (NCR53C810). This is most likely a hardware problem. What kind of disk drive is that ? Can you try upgrading to /sys/pci/ncr.c from the -stable sources ? (The error handling and recovery code is improved in that version.) } The only thing that actually made it in syslog were the following: } } vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 0 failure } swap_pager: I/O error - pagein failed; blkno 456, size 4096, error 5 } } etc. } } The interesting thing was that everything would work fine in single user } mode, but not in multi-user (even though no one else was online). That's surprising, since there are no driver visible differences between single and multi-user mode ... } Sorry I can't be more specific here, but the errors scrolled two quickly } and once the error occured I could not do anything with the system. } Every command I tried resulted in an input/ouput error. Please try to stop the output using the SCROLL LOCK key on your keyboard (as early as possible) and report the first error message (use the PAGE UP key to scroll back). Regards, STefan -- Stefan Esser, Zentrum fuer Paralleles Rechnen Tel: +49 221 4706021 Universitaet zu Koeln, Weyertal 80, 50931 Koeln FAX: +49 221 4705160 ============================================================================== http://www.zpr.uni-koeln.de/~se From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 04:01:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA24051 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (pp@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA24042 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au id <14929-0@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:00:30 +1000 Received: from netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id UAA24535 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 20:54:23 +1000 Received: from localhost by netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.8.1/DEVETIR-0.1) id LAA11085 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:00:19 GMT Message-Id: <199604121100.LAA11085@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. X-Face: 3}heU+2?b->-GSF-G4T4>jEB9~FR(V9lo&o>kAy=Pj&;oVOc<|pr%I/VSG"ZD32J>5gGC0N 7gj]^GI@M:LlqNd]|(2OxOxy@$6@/!,";-!OlucF^=jq8s57$%qXd/ieC8DhWmIy@J1AcnvSGV\|*! >Bvu7+0h4zCY^]{AxXKsDTlgA2m]fX$W@'8ev-Qi+-;%L'CcZ'NBL!@n?}q!M&Em3*eW7,093nOeV8 M)(u+6D;%B7j\XA/9j4!Gj~&jYzflG[#)E9sI&Xe9~y~Gn%fA7>F:YKr"Wx4cZU*6{^2ocZ!YyR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:00:18 +1000 From: Stephen Hocking Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Discussion of various UI builders elided] Warner Losh writes.... >XF totally sucked. I can say that because I've written a good >builder. SpecTCL is the closest thing I've seen to something for free >that has almost as good an interface as OB. .... So where does one get hold of SpecTCL? Stephen -- The views expressed above are not those of the Worker's Compensation Board of Queensland, Australia. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 04:40:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA27164 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from edna.bus.net (edna.bus.net [207.41.24.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA27159 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by edna.bus.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA00710; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:37:12 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:37:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chuck O'Donnell" To: Joerg Wunsch cc: FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: fbsd pty bug In-Reply-To: <199604120745.JAA09372@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As another side note, i wrote a commit by Bruce Evans last night who > apparently found & fixed at least one of the underlying bugs. Can you > try it out? I applied a patch from the diff sent by Bruce. This fixed everything. I had incorrectly assumed there were two bugs: one causing incorrect returns of the number of bytes written, and one doing multiples of the write. As you probably know, the jove editor ignored the return of `0 bytes written', while the shell did not, explaining the multiples. I will need to upgrade to current. Thank you for the time you spent on this. Regards, Chuck From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 04:54:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA27853 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rogerswave.ca (mail.rogerswave.ca [198.231.117.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA27848 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (wong.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by rogerswave.ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA02235; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:41:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Wong To: Terry Lambert cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, roell@blah.a.isar.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, roell@xinside.com Subject: Re: The F_SETOWN problem.. In-Reply-To: <199604111804.LAA04310@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > Sounds like what you want is TQE's with AST's to implement primitive > deadlining (as opposed to implementing real deadlining). That is one way of using AST by some unix box(not just VMS). > > All of the AST mechanisms discussed so far really don't have the > idea of implementing TQE's anywhere in them... even my calls for > kernel one-shots wouldn't make the thread schedulable if there > were other ready-to-run threads (processes) ahead of it in line > that had not consumed their system quantum. > suppose if you have another CPU just wait for that thread and nothing else. i.e. CPU have priority and the kernel is n-queue scheduling and pre-emptive fix priority for process. we don't even need re-entrant kernel. however,thread (OS/2 style) is definitely helping out here. > For what you want, in terms of being able to respond deterministically, > kernel preemption is required. > > Which means kernel reentrancy is required. > > Which means kernel multithreading is required. > > These are all on my list, but they ar a long way off at present, and > much of the required changes are going to have to go in when the > interrupt virtualization goes in for SMP. It's a requirement of > that model that the interrupt service routines be split, and the > absolute minimum amount of work be done at interrupt level, queueing > the actual work for later. This will have the side effect of decreasing > interrupt latency, even in the UP case, since after the queue but > before processing, the system would be reay for another interrupt > (NT does this; so does SVR4 ES/MP and Sequent's OS, as well as Solaris). > I certainly haven't been working on the interrupt code; I've only > been working on the system call entry into the kernel, one of the > three ways in (the third being via exceptions, like page faults or > stack growth). > > I think I've found someone with greater amibitions with shorter time > frames than myself. 8-). actually, if you can recommend me a cheap and good 2-CPU motherboard I might be able to work on it. Ken From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 05:20:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA28853 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA28848 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA18840; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:14:33 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199604121214.IAA18840@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Xinside's Motif To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD-hackers) In-Reply-To: <199604120755.JAA09588@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Apr 12, 96 09:55:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I guess I'm gonna have to send my money to > > Lazermoon. They have a native FreeBSD port of Motif for $100.00. > > Don't do it. It's not really worth the money. In short: it sucks. > Is that the SWIM or the Moo-Tiff rom that sucks... if so -- what problems have you seen. I just purchased it here... Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive, Tinton Falls, NJ 07724, 908-389-3592 | pechter@shell.monmouth.com I'll run Win96 on my box when you pry the keyboard from my cold, dead hands. FreeBSD, OS/2, CP/M, RT11, spoken here. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 05:23:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA28983 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.pu.ru (gw.pu.ru [193.124.85.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA28978 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (root@localhost) by gw.pu.ru (8.6.10/8.6.6) with UUCP id QAA12074 for freebsd.org!hackers; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:20:59 +0400 Organization: SPb State University Received: (from root@localhost) by localhost (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00362; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:08:40 +0400 From: Alexey Pialkin Message-Id: <199604121208.QAA00362@localhost> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: sri.MT.net!nate@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:08:39 +0000 (WET DST) Cc: riogrande.cs.tcu.edu!tam@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, FreeBSD.org!hackers@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru In-Reply-To: <199604111505.JAA04157@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 11, 96 09:05:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 2. Has anybody gotten it to compile and work ??? > > Apparently a couple people have. I did a quick one-through on it, but > didn't pursue the 'PCCONS' stuff. I suspect we'll see some more noise > on the lists when it gets more stable. The main problem with doscmd is a different way of signals support in FreeBSD & BSDI. BSDI uses syscall sigreturn and as i undestand it's parametrs & some internal realization much differ from FreeBSD realization. But a signals is very important part of VM86 emulation in doscmd. Yestaday i patch my kernel & make sigreturn to be able to setup VM86 but some time after i got Trap in kernel..:( Will try to fix it today.... -- /====================================U _a' /( / Alexey Pialkin N ~~ _}\ \( - / Internet: root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru I \(,_(,\\ / FidoNet: 2:5030/247 X ._>, _>,``==> From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 05:25:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA29129 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.pu.ru (gw.pu.ru [193.124.85.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA28891 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (root@localhost) by gw.pu.ru (8.6.10/8.6.6) with UUCP id QAA12069 for freebsd.org!hackers; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:20:55 +0400 Organization: SPb State University Received: (from root@localhost) by localhost (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00331; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:58:24 +0400 From: Alexey Pialkin Message-Id: <199604121158.PAA00331@localhost> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: lambert.org!terry@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:58:23 +0000 (WET DST) Cc: root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, FreeBSD.ORG!sos@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, riogrande.cs.tcu.edu!tam@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, FreeBSD.ORG!hackers@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru In-Reply-To: <199604112022.NAA04681@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 11, 96 01:22:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > For what else you are going to use VM86 ? The main & sole purpose of it is > > 8086 emulation => DOS emulation. > > The main purpose of VM86() in my book is BIOS driver support and > fallback support for otherwise unsupportable hardware. Do you whant something like WIN95 ? :( On my mind it's not a very nice idea to use BIOS in all cases - much better to write normal driver.... -- /====================================U _a' /( / Alexey Pialkin N ~~ _}\ \( - / Internet: root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru I \(,_(,\\ / FidoNet: 2:5030/247 X ._>, _>,``==> From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 05:58:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA00664 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA00659 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA06528; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:55:07 +0200 Message-Id: <199604121255.OAA06528@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (Alexey Pialkin) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:55:07 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) In-Reply-To: <199604121208.QAA00362@localhost> from "Alexey Pialkin" at Apr 12, 96 04:08:39 pm From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Alexey Pialkin who wrote: > > > > 2. Has anybody gotten it to compile and work ??? > > > > Apparently a couple people have. I did a quick one-through on it, but > > didn't pursue the 'PCCONS' stuff. I suspect we'll see some more noise > > on the lists when it gets more stable. > > The main problem with doscmd is a different way of signals support in > FreeBSD & BSDI. BSDI uses syscall sigreturn and as i undestand it's parametrs > & some internal realization much differ from FreeBSD realization. But a signals > is very important part of VM86 emulation in doscmd. They are not that different in this respect (yet), but you need to change both the signal sending and the sigreturn functions to get this to work Allso you'll need a couple of little asm helpfunctions to fiddle with stack layout depending on what frame you want the system to belive you are giving it. > Yestaday i patch my kernel & make sigreturn to be able to setup VM86 but some > time after i got Trap in kernel..:( Will try to fix it today.... This isn't real VM86 its an emulation of that... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 06:09:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA01320 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 06:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA01315 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 06:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DATAPLEX.NET (SHARK.DATAPLEX.NET [199.183.109.241]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id GAA29566 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 06:08:51 -0700 Received: from 199.183.109.242 by DATAPLEX.NET with SMTP (MailShare 1.0fc5); Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:04:20 -0600 Message-ID: Date: 12 Apr 1996 08:04:00 -0500 From: "Richard Wackerbarth" Subject: Re(2): Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: "hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" , "Terry Lambert" X-Mailer: Mail*Link PT/Internet 1.6.0 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > The problem is that new widgets are a bad idea, in general. "Compatible with extensions" is a bad thing, and all you really succeed in doing is violating style guidelines. > Wrongo. I'm going to say that using custom frobs is bad, and that if you need a triangular button, your user interface design is bad. This assumes that the original "style guidelines" were perfect and that additional design innovation is bad. I guess we should all go back to driving Model "T"'s and program in assembly language. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 06:29:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA02430 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 06:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA02425 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 06:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA17320; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:28:36 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199604121328.IAA17320@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: warning: maxusers > 64 To: mrcpu@cdsnet.net (Jaye Mathisen) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:28:35 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Jaye Mathisen" at Apr 11, 96 03:59:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Why does it care? (2.1-stable, supped yesterday. (4/10)) As far as I can tell - it doesn't, it's just trying to warn you about a potentially silly setting. Last I checked, MAXUSERS drives several key kernel data structure sizes, among other things. Setting MAXUSERS to 256 might be disastrous on a box with 4MB RAM. I routinely run news servers with MAXUSERS==128 (64/128MB RAM). When we recently tried to upgrade Daily-Planet to what I'm told is a "Triton-clone" board that was able to handle 256MB RAM, I upped it to MAXUSERS=256, but the box was very unstable. Turned out to be the motherboard, not the setting. :-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 07:15:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA06343 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA06335 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I3GJXOMP40000Y4Q@mail.rwth-aachen.de> for freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:47:43 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA18634 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:53:35 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:53:35 +0200 From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: world build figures To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Message-id: <199604121353.PAA18634@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mounting the obj tree async brought down my world build time from around 14.000 s real to some 12.000 s real. That was with -pipe already. Any other suggestions what could be mounted async? /tmp, /var/tmp? --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 07:37:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA08168 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA08162 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.mcs.com (root@Venus.mcs.com [192.160.127.92]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA22143; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:37:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: by venus.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Fri, 12 Apr 96 09:37 CDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Hmmm, OK, SMC driver is the de driver. Is it broke? To: mrcpu@cdsnet.net (Jaye Mathisen) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:37:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Jaye Mathisen" at Apr 11, 96 06:43:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1 box has been running fine for a couple months as a news server, with a > 3com 3c509 (2.1-stable from about Feb). > > Swapped the 509 for the SMC etherpower, and updated the src to 4/10/96 > -stable, and the box locks up after a few seconds of use. > > Seems to be related to the ethernet card, as it works fine if I put the > 3com back. It also works fine if I boot the old 2.1-RELEASE generic > kernel. > > It doesn't work with a current -stable generic or custom kernel. > > Symptoms are always the same. It boots fine, runs a few minutes, and > after just a bit of network I/O, it fails. > > Tried a different etherpower 10/100 card, and same thing. > > > Box is a P5-120, award BIOS, PNP on, a 946C, crappy VGA, and the SMC card > are all that's in it. > > Any tips appreciated. I have over a half-dozen boxes with Etherpower 10/100 cards (all running 10MB mode right now) and have seen *zero* trouble. The "de" driver appears to work just fine for us here. We're running Pentia-166 CPUs with Adaptec PCI disk adapters in these. I believe the boards are Tyans. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1] | 21 Chicagoland POPs, ISDN, 28.8, much more Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ ISDN - Get it here TODAY! | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 07:56:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA09191 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from geneva.visi.net (root@geneva.visi.net [204.71.248.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA09182 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:56:53 -0700 (PDT) From: surfmwb@nhr.com Received: from PCMB.CHARTWAY.COM (pcmb.chartway.com [199.3.227.4]) by geneva.visi.net (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA05330; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604121453.KAA05330@geneva.visi.net> To: alex@fa.tdktca.com Subject: Re: RE: unable to mount / Cc: hackers@Freebsd.org X-Mailer: ProntoIP [version 1.05 release 1.02] Sender: owner-hackers@Freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Mark> I currently have release 2.0 loaded on a system I use for an > Mark> internet email server. All of a sudden today while a remote > Mark> session was logged in trying to telnet out to another it > Mark> reported no available network sessions available..while > Mark> being the only one logged in... > > Mark> Then I went to the console to log in and no matter which of > Mark> my logins including root would allow access. All reported > Mark> invalid username. > > Mark> Unfortunately, I had no other option that I know of so I > Mark> powered down the system thinking I could then fsck the > Mark> system and go about my business..instead the kernel runs > Mark> properly until it reaches mounting the /. It reports the / > Mark> was unmounted improperly and locks up. > > As Joerg pointed out, you can try the fixit floppy. > > Mark> What can be done without a reload, if anything? An what can > Mark> I do to make the reload easier of Release 2.1? I've never > Mark> done a complete load before. > > If you look on the bright side, upgrading from 2.0 to 2.1 is a very > wise move. I've heard some very bad things about 2.0. As for making > the reload easy -- you needn't do anything, it's very easy. I would > recommend that you create separate paritions for different mount > points. For example, I have: > > /dev/sd0a on / (local) > /dev/sd1s1e on /tmp (local) > /dev/sd0s1d on /u1 (local) > /dev/sd1s1f on /u2 (local) > /dev/sd0s1e on /usr (local) > /dev/sd0s1f on /var (local) > /dev/sd0s1g on /var/mail (local) > /dev/sd0s1h on /var/spool (local) > > The benefits are: > > - Spool areas are separated. If I get mail bombed, I can still > print. If /tmp fills up, I can still get mail, etc. > > - Areas such as the root file system rarely get touched, so > if the system goes down, there's less chance of corruption. > > - If a file system does get corrupted, the damage is contained > within a smaller area (for example, I had /u2 go bad last > week, but /u1 survived intact). > > - You can run a filesystem you don't care about (such as /tmp) > in async mode for better performance. (UFS defaults to sync > metadata for safety purposes.) > > Alex > I'm in the process of trying to use the fixit floppy. It boots to the Boot: then it can't find the kernel. What am I doing wrong or what can I do at this point? The kernel is found if I'm trying to boot the system normally but it freezes when mounting the root. Thanks From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 08:18:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA10351 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com ([204.160.242.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA10346 Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.2]) by horst.bfd.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA21678; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:20:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: Richard Chang cc: ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Richard Chang wrote: > > You can certainly configure fvwm do do this, usually on Alt-Tab. fvwm > > also allows for modules, which is nice. One of the modules available > > (currently only for fvwm95) gives me the *ONE* feature I like from Win95, > > which is a bar with a button on it for each window, so I can click on a > > button and go to that window (uniconifying as necessary). Now if only > > the bugger would go on the right of the screen instead of the top or the > > bottom. :-) > > Hmmm, I am using fvwm and it only does it with Alt-F7/F8 and not > Alt-Tab, how did you get it to work with alt-TAB? Also, is the bar with > a button actually a feature that comes out of the package or do you need > to configure fvwm to do it? A long time ago, I edited my .fvwmrc to do this. It's really not hard to do, once you understand the layout of the .fvwmrc. In fact, there's an amazing list of things that you can do once you learn to modify the .fvwmrc. From a routine in the .fvwm2rc, I believe that you can now set up an action (menu, button, hotkey, etc) that will bring your mail program to the front, uniconify it if necessary, or *RUN* it if it's not already running. Haven't been able to get it to work yet, as the sample is for xmh, and I'm using pine. Here's the key bindings you are talking about Key F7 A M Next [*] focus Key F8 A M Prev [*] focus I *BELIEVE* (haven't tried it in 2.0) that the line Key Tab A M Next [*] focus should do the trick. (Suddenly, he realizes that he's running Fvwm95 *NOW*, so modifies his .fvwm2rc95, restarts Fvwm95, and comfirms that it works) As for the task bar, it is included in the sample fvwm95rc file that comes with the Fvwm95 distribution. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 08:39:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA11636 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gvr.win.tue.nl (root@gvr.win.tue.nl [131.155.210.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA11628 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gvr.win.tue.nl (8.6.12/1.53) id RAA01004; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:38:55 +0200 From: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) Message-Id: <199604121538.RAA01004@gvr.win.tue.nl> Subject: SKIP implementation To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:38:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know of a SKIP implementation on FreeBSD? -Guido From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 08:46:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA12218 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA12198 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA07272; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:42:08 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:42:08 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199604121542.JAA07272@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: A JOSEPH KOSHY Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Critical stdio bug? In-Reply-To: <199604120837.AA276558230@fakir.india.hp.com> References: <199604120530.XAA06324@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199604120837.AA276558230@fakir.india.hp.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > nw> OS's, but I had them available). However, on FreeBSD the EOF doesn't > nw> get flushed out when it's read. > > The program works correctly on some HPUX machine I could lay my hands on > too. > > The behaviour seems to be coming from: "lib/libc/stdio/refill.c";__srefill(fp) > > /* SysV does not make this test; take it out for compatibility */ > if (fp->_flags & __SEOF) > return (EOF); > > The problem seems to be here (further down in the function) : > > fp->_r = (*fp->_read)(fp->_cookie, (char *)fp->_p, fp->_bf._size); > fp->_flags &= ~__SMOD; /* buffer contents are again pristine */ > if (fp->_r <= 0) { > if (fp->_r == 0) > fp->_flags |= __SEOF; > else { > fp->_r = 0; > fp->_flags |= __SERR; > } > return (EOF); > } > > > The manual page says: > > The system guarantees to read the number of bytes requested if > the descriptor references a normal file that has that many bytes > left before the end-of-file, but in no other case. > [...] > If successful, the number of bytes actually read is returned. Upon read- > ing end-of-file, zero is returned. Otherwise, a -1 is returned and the > > Thus getting a return count of 0, does not always imply end-of-file forever > on the file descriptor. > > So isn't the check at the beginning of the function incorrect? I'm not confident to answer thjis, but I suspect the author (Chris Torek) would know. :) I'll forward him all of the relevant material in a separate email. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 08:58:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA14288 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14278 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA07307; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:58:50 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:58:50 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199604121558.JAA07307@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: torek@bsdi.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org CC: koshy@india.hp.com Subject: STDIO bug and/or misfeature? Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Chris, I'm experiencing what I consider to be a bug in FreeBSD's stdio library. I sent the following post to a mailing list describing the bug, and one of the responses is appended below. If you have any comments on the behavior and the response I'd love to hear them. I diffed our code against the 4.4Lite-2 stdio code, and other than quite a few changes to vfprintf we've made and a fix you posted to fseek.c, our code is pretty much the same as in Lite2. ------------------------------------------------------------ From: Nate Williams Subject: Critical stdio bug? Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:30:23 -0600 Status: OR OK, this is a *really* simply example, and it works as expected under OSF1, SCO, SunOS, and Solaris. (Not necessary the greatest list of OS's, but I had them available). However, on FreeBSD the EOF doesn't get flushed out when it's read. #include int main() { char string_space[20]; do { printf("Enter a string. (EOF to exit): "); } while (scanf("%s", string_space) != EOF); printf("\n"); do { printf("Search string? (EOF to exit): "); } while (scanf("%s", string_space) != EOF); printf("\n"); return 1; } What I think should happen (and what happens on the other OS's) is that you input strings until the first EOF marker is input, and then you can input some more. The program is a silly example I'm doing to shove some data into a database and then search it later, but it doesn't work due to what I think are bugs in FreeBSD's stdio library. In FreeBSD, the EOF marker is read and appears to be left in the buffer which causes the second scanf function to read an immediate EOF and bail out of the 2nd loop. Is there something I'm missing here, or some non-obvious syscall() I need to do first? I'm running various incarnations of 2.1R and -stable here which all exhibit this behavior. Nate ------------------------------------------------------------ From: A JOSEPH KOSHY Subject: Re: Critical stdio bug? Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:07:10 +0530 Status: OR >>>>> "nw" == "Nate Williams" >>>>> nw> OS's, but I had them available). However, on FreeBSD the EOF doesn't nw> get flushed out when it's read. The program works correctly on some HPUX machine I could lay my hands on too. The behaviour seems to be coming from: "lib/libc/stdio/refill.c";__srefill(fp) /* SysV does not make this test; take it out for compatibility */ if (fp->_flags & __SEOF) return (EOF); The problem seems to be here (further down in the function) : fp->_r = (*fp->_read)(fp->_cookie, (char *)fp->_p, fp->_bf._size); fp->_flags &= ~__SMOD; /* buffer contents are again pristine */ if (fp->_r <= 0) { if (fp->_r == 0) fp->_flags |= __SEOF; else { fp->_r = 0; fp->_flags |= __SERR; } return (EOF); } The manual page says: The system guarantees to read the number of bytes requested if the descriptor references a normal file that has that many bytes left before the end-of-file, but in no other case. [...] If successful, the number of bytes actually read is returned. Upon read- ing end-of-file, zero is returned. Otherwise, a -1 is returned and the Thus getting a return count of 0, does not always imply end-of-file forever on the file descriptor. So isn't the check at the beginning of the function incorrect? Koshy From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 09:34:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16345 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16338 Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0u7lnt-0003vlC; Fri, 12 Apr 96 09:34 PDT Received: from localhost.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA14822; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:04:58 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: critter.tfs.com: Host localhost.tfs.com didn't use HELO protocol To: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" cc: Richard Chang , ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. (PLEASE STOP!!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:20:17 MST." Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:03:43 +0000 Message-ID: <14820.829325023@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I guess this little war has raged sufficiently now. Please move this discussion elsewhere now. THANKYOU! Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 09:37:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16617 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (root@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us [198.82.200.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA16612 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kmitch@localhost) by phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27208 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:37:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Keith Mitchell Message-Id: <199604121637.MAA27208@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Subject: Class field in master.passwd To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:37:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has any work been done/in progress on the user "class" stuff?? If not/so, I would be interested in HELPING out on this. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 10:03:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA18251 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18246 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <16398(2)>; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:03:04 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177475>; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:02:27 -0700 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Subject: Re: PPP routing problem In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 96 15:09:02 PDT." <199604112209.AAA06535@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:02:22 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Apr12.100227pdt.177475@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199604112209.AAA06535@uriah.heep.sax.de> you write: >The only workaround i've found for it by now (short of understanding >the routing code in the kernel) was to run ``arp -d'' for this IP >address in the ip-up script, and retrying the ifconfig. This still >leaves a minor window where a new incoming packet for this IP address >could trigger another ARP attempt. As of rev1.23 / rev1.13.4.2 of in_rmx.c, interface routes will remove unfinished ARP entries as they are installed, leaving no such window. Bill From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 10:07:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA18441 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA18435 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with SMTP id IAA03698 ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:50:37 +0100 (BST) To: Keith Mitchell cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: unknown error message In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:12:53 EDT." <199604120112.VAA17026@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:50:36 +0100 Message-ID: <3696.829295436@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Keith Mitchell wrote in message ID <199604120112.VAA17026@phantasma.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>: > Today, one of the machines I admin spontaneously rebooted, and left the > folloing message in syslog: > /kernel: ger input (probably hardware) error, PID 1 > What does this mean?? This should have gone to questions@freebsd.org, but never mind. It's probably really: /kernel: vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID x failure My guess for this would be disk failure. If it's a SCSI, then the drive or the controller possibly wedged. For other drives I'd guess it would be a bad block somewhere in the swap space. There was probably a more detailed error before that saying what exactly the problem was, but you must have over-run your kernel message buffer with boot messages or something. Gary From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 11:06:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA22559 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA22541 Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA07618; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:05:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:05:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Chang To: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" cc: ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Eric J. Schwertfeger wrote: > On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Richard Chang wrote: > > > > You can certainly configure fvwm do do this, usually on Alt-Tab. fvwm > > > also allows for modules, which is nice. One of the modules available > > > (currently only for fvwm95) gives me the *ONE* feature I like from Win95, > > > which is a bar with a button on it for each window, so I can click on a > > > button and go to that window (uniconifying as necessary). Now if only > > > the bugger would go on the right of the screen instead of the top or the > > > bottom. :-) > > > > Hmmm, I am using fvwm and it only does it with Alt-F7/F8 and not > > Alt-Tab, how did you get it to work with alt-TAB? Also, is the bar with > > a button actually a feature that comes out of the package or do you need > > to configure fvwm to do it? > > A long time ago, I edited my .fvwmrc to do this. It's really not hard to > do, once you understand the layout of the .fvwmrc. In fact, there's an > amazing list of things that you can do once you learn to modify the > .fvwmrc. From a routine in the .fvwm2rc, I believe that you can now set > up an action (menu, button, hotkey, etc) that will bring your mail > program to the front, uniconify it if necessary, or *RUN* it if it's not > already running. Haven't been able to get it to work yet, as the sample > is for xmh, and I'm using pine. > > Here's the key bindings you are talking about > > Key F7 A M Next [*] focus > Key F8 A M Prev [*] focus > > I *BELIEVE* (haven't tried it in 2.0) that the line > > Key Tab A M Next [*] focus > > should do the trick. (Suddenly, he realizes that he's running Fvwm95 > *NOW*, so modifies his .fvwm2rc95, restarts Fvwm95, and comfirms that it > works) > > As for the task bar, it is included in the sample fvwm95rc file that > comes with the Fvwm95 distribution. Hmmm, does fvwm95 still use .fvwmrc? Richard From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 11:16:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA23628 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from magnet.geophysik.tu-freiberg.de (magnet.geophysik.tu-freiberg.de [139.20.128.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA23449 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magnet.geophysik.tu-freiberg.de (8.7.4/8.7.3) with UUCP id UAA28922; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 20:15:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from holm@localhost) by unicorn.pppnet.tu-freiberg.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA07113; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 20:06:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Holm Tiffe Message-Id: <199604121806.UAA07113@unicorn.pppnet.tu-freiberg.de> Subject: adjkerntz To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 20:06:31 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: ache@astral.msk.su Reply-To: holm@geophysik.tu-freiberg.de X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk AHi all, I have tryed to compile -current today and the following appered: cc -O -Wall -c /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c: In function `main': /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c:321: `CPU_WALLCLOCK' undeclared (first use t his function) /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c:321: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c:321: for each function it appears in.) *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 -current is broken again :-( -- ******************************************************************************* * Holm Tiffe holm@geophysik.tu-freiberg.de * * Strasse der Einheit 26 * * 09599 Freiberg Germany Microsoft is not the Answer - * * Tel.: 49 3731 74233 Microsoft is the Question, * * UUCP: 49 3731 73719 unicorn!holm and the Answer is no ! * ******************************************************************************* From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 11:44:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA25378 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25355 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA04672; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:46:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:46:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199604121846.OAA04672@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: Hmmm, OK, SMC driver is the de driver. Is it broke? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> 1 box has been running fine for a couple months as a news server, with a >> 3com 3c509 (2.1-stable from about Feb). >> >> Swapped the 509 for the SMC etherpower, and updated the src to 4/10/96 >> -stable, and the box locks up after a few seconds of use. >> >> Seems to be related to the ethernet card, as it works fine if I put the >> 3com back. It also works fine if I boot the old 2.1-RELEASE generic >> kernel. >> >> It doesn't work with a current -stable generic or custom kernel. >> >> Symptoms are always the same. It boots fine, runs a few minutes, and >> after just a bit of network I/O, it fails. >> >> Tried a different etherpower 10/100 card, and same thing. >> >> >> Box is a P5-120, award BIOS, PNP on, a 946C, crappy VGA, and the SMC card >> are all that's in it. >> >> Any tips appreciated. > >I have over a half-dozen boxes with Etherpower 10/100 cards (all running >10MB mode right now) and have seen *zero* trouble. The "de" driver appears >to work just fine for us here. > >We're running Pentia-166 CPUs with Adaptec PCI disk adapters in these. I >believe the boards are Tyans. We've found a couple of motherboards that dont like the SMC card..dont know why they just hang. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 12:05:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA26641 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntserv.webleicester.co.uk ([206.249.75.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA26633 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.249.75.17] by ntserv.webleicester.co.uk (NTMail 3.01.00) id qa002278; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:05:05 +0000 Received: from LANSYS/SpoolDir by lansys.webleicester.co.uk (Mercury 1.21); 12 Apr 96 20:05:35 +0000 Received: from SpoolDir by LANSYS (Mercury 1.21); 12 Apr 96 20:05:28 +0000 From: "Phil Taylor" Organization: Lan Systems To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 20:05:25 GMT Subject: Chase research AT series cards. Reply-to: phil@lansys.webleicester.co.uk X-Confirm-Reading-To: phil@lansys.webleicester.co.uk X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Message-ID: <194E7A10268@lansys.webleicester.co.uk> X-Info: The Web Factory (Leicester) Elecctronic Mail System Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk With regard to my previous message on this list I am now in possession of a Chase NDA which will give me all of the Firmware/Hardware specs of the card including the SCO driver source. They are quite happy about source or binary level re-distribution of any driver that I may create as long as I don't release any specific data that I built it from. I will soon be looking at starting the driver so i will need LOADS of help from EVERYONE !!!!!! If anyone has any comments / help (like : why bother with a card whose technology is 7 years old, which is what Chase said) then please let me know. Cheers Phil /* Phil Taylor phil@webleicester.co.uk LAN Systems - LAN/WAN Specialists */ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 12:21:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA28952 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com (root@uuneo.neosoft.com [206.109.1.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28857 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nmti.com (ficc@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with UUCP id NAA20916 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:16:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sonic.nmti.com (peter@sonic.nmti.com [198.178.0.2]) by web.nmti.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA13305 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:09:50 -0500 Received: by sonic.nmti.com; id AA32755; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:09:49 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:09:49 -0500 From: peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <9604121809.AA32755@sonic.nmti.com.nmti.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 2.1 release, lpt.c, BPF Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wanted to run TCPdump on a 2.1 system. Turned on BPF and the kernel wouldn't build. Looks like the 2.1 bpf code in lpt.c was broken. Known problem? I commented out "#include "bpfilter.h"" and it built. We'll see if it works when I get a chance to reboot this box this evening... From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 13:25:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA13489 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sisyphos (Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.212.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13465 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by Sisyphos id AA05582 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:25:18 +0200 Message-Id: <199604122025.AA05582@Sisyphos> From: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:25:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Phil Taylor" "Chase research AT series cards." (Apr 12, 20:05) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(2) 7/9/95) To: phil@lansys.webleicester.co.uk Subject: Re: Chase research AT series cards. Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 12, 20:05, "Phil Taylor" wrote: } Subject: Chase research AT series cards. } With regard to my previous message on this list I am now in } possession of a Chase NDA which will give me all of the } Firmware/Hardware specs of the card including the SCO driver source. } } They are quite happy about source or binary level re-distribution of } any driver that I may create as long as I don't release any specific } data that I built it from. } } I will soon be looking at starting the driver so i will need LOADS of } help from EVERYONE !!!!!! } } If anyone has any comments / help (like : why bother with a card } whose technology is 7 years old, which is what Chase said) then } please let me know. Hi Phil! Some 7 or eight years ago I got a Chase Research AT16 card (name from memory) for some companies 386/ix based server. It is an intelligent card (does unix line mode) with 16 I/Os up to 38400Baud, if I remember right. The card had the bad habit of ports locking up under 386/ix one each day, and the system had to be rebooted to clear the lock. (But since there were a few spare ports, the terminals were just moved to the next free port, until too many were inoperational ;-) Since this system has been out of service for some time, I might be able to get hold of that card. I have no real use for it, but if you are going to write a driver, I could do some compatibility tests, at least. In fact, I could go into the ISP business with that card and a FreeBSD driver for it :) Let me know if you are interested in me performing some tests with that card and a driver of yours. Regards, STefan -- Stefan Esser, Zentrum fuer Paralleles Rechnen Tel: +49 221 4706021 Universitaet zu Koeln, Weyertal 80, 50931 Koeln FAX: +49 221 4705160 ============================================================================== http://www.zpr.uni-koeln.de/~se From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 13:47:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA17906 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA17875 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA28430; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:45:58 +0200 From: John Hay Message-Id: <199604122045.WAA28430@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: adjkerntz To: holm@geophysik.tu-freiberg.de Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:45:57 +0200 (SAT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, ache@astral.msk.su In-Reply-To: <199604121806.UAA07113@unicorn.pppnet.tu-freiberg.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Apr 12, 96 08:06:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > AHi all, > I have tryed to compile -current today and the following appered: > cc -O -Wall -c /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c > /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c: In function `main': > /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c:321: `CPU_WALLCLOCK' undeclared (first use t > his function) > /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c:321: (Each undeclared identifier is reported > only once > /usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c:321: for each function it appears in.) > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > *** Error code 1 > > > -current is broken again :-( > Are you sure you have the latest include files installed? # grep CPU_WALLCLOCK /usr/include/*/*.h /usr/include/machine/cpu.h:#define CPU_WALLCLOCK 5 /* int:indicates wall CMOS clock */ John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@csir.co.za From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 13:49:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA18402 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA18379 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA02387; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:44:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604122044.NAA02387@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:44:33 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Apr 12, 96 10:49:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I know, you're now going to come back with the argument that one can > > > trivially write a blah blah blah widget in Motif (probably using the > > > word "virtualize" at least once :-) but that's not the point - I don't > > > WANT to have to write custom frobs for Motif each time I want to > > > display a triangular button or a flipping-page widget or whatever, nor > > > do I want to have to reinvent the generalized canvas widget there. > > > > Wrongo. I'm going to say that using custom frobs is bad, and that > > if you need a triangular button, your user interface design is bad. > > If you succeed in creating your little triangle, where in the users > > previous training does the information on how to use it come from? > > No. Triangular (and round and square) buttons are all the same. In some > places the triangular ones should be used (in an application which > presents the user with a real world like remote control thingy?). What do > you think the scrollbar buttons have arrows on them? > > I don't think a triangular button makes the usage any harder if it used > it in a place which wins from it. Those places are where they are analogs to existung real-word controls, and there aren't that many places where an aleegorical interface is useful. This goes back to my other question -- what does a physical instead of a software word processor look like, such that you could design the software version s an analog? Most of the problems solved in software are *only* solved in software, and have *no* real world analogs. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 13:51:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA18870 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA18850 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com (root@uuneo.neosoft.com [206.109.1.3]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA07562 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:51:10 -0700 Received: from nmti.com (ficc@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with UUCP id IAA20360; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:46:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sonic.nmti.com (peter@sonic.nmti.com [198.178.0.2]) by web.nmti.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA02911; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:32:26 -0500 Received: by sonic.nmti.com; id AA11459; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:32:24 -0500 From: peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <9604121332.AA11459@sonic.nmti.com.nmti.com> Subject: Re: Solaris2.5 and BSD* - Facts To: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:32:24 -0500 (CDT) Cc: djr@saa-cons.co.uk, Firewalls@GreatCircle.COM, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199604111317.PAA05057@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Apr 11, 96 03:17:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > source is also interesting to have. You can remove all the security > related ``extras'' in the kernel (IP forwarding, IP source routing, > log connection attempts, ...) if you've got the source. Starting with sys/netinet/ip_input.c:866 if (forward) { ip_forward(m, 1); return (1); } We've got a BSDI box here as well, and the same code uses a different approach to turn off these options. It took me a while to assure myself that the code was really doing the same thing in both cases. In the course of which I found myself sitting up in bed with my 10 year old son going over the code explaining IP option handling. Nothing like a code review to help you clarify your understanding of a program, and he seemed to be following the code better than some professional programmers I've worked with. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 13:51:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA18975 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA18953 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA02412; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:50:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604122050.NAA02412@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:50:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, alk@Think.COM, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <10625.829300205@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 12, 96 02:10:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The problem is that new widgets are a bad idea, in general. "Compatible > > with extensions" is a bad thing, and all you really succeed in doing > > is violating style guidelines. > > Unfortunately, that simply doesn't always apply - especially to the > Motif widget set which has large holes missing. It's not a matter > of adding value, it's a matter of trying not to outright cripple > your UI! For instance, what do you need to do that isn't in the 2.x widget set? For something like the "cell phone" UI for the internet phone program, or the "Sony stereo" UI for a CD player program, there are real world analogues, and I'd argue that you don't need a GUI toolkit at all -- you need a graphic artist, and then it's your job as a programmer to "just make it work". The problem with real world analogues is that the intersection between the sets of problems to solve in the real world and in software is generally quite small. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 13:57:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA19947 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from burka.carrier.kiev.ua (root@burka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA19854 Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (root@sivka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.130]) by burka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with ESMTP id XAA00652; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:55:54 +0300 Received: from elvisti.kiev.ua (uucp@localhost) by sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with UUCP id XAA01266; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:40:45 +0300 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.33]) by acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA21511; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:34:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id XAA03437; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:34:08 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199604122034.XAA03437@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: [?] EQUINOX PCI 8-port serial board -- any opinions? To: hackers@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:34:08 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I got a chance to put hands on a 8port PCI serial board, made by: EQUINOX One Equinox Way Sunrise, Florida 33351-6709 (954) 746-9000 (954) 746-9101 fax The device name is SST-8P (UNIX version), part No. 990302. Floppies with some drivers for SCO and other SysV are present. As I recall, the device isn't in the "supported" list. But probably someone already has opinion -- is it worth the time and effort to try? -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 14:21:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA28528 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28489 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA09320; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:20:46 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA05347; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:20:45 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA11560; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:12:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604122112.XAA11560@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Xinside's Motif To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:12:45 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199604121214.IAA18840@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Apr 12, 96 08:14:33 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > I guess I'm gonna have to send my money to > > > Lazermoon. They have a native FreeBSD port of Motif for $100.00. > > > > Don't do it. It's not really worth the money. In short: it sucks. > > > > Is that the SWIM or the Moo-Tiff rom that sucks... if so -- what problems > have you seen. I just purchased it here... SWiM. It's been a bit ago that i've installed it, so this is from mind: . The installation script has been smashed together lovelessly. It didn't allow for an installation anywhere outside /usr/X386, but in insisted on it. (For good reason: people who've been installing it there reported that their imake templates have been trashed.) There are numerous subtleties that are wrong in the installation, like not checking for the existance of certain directories (or even automagically creating them) before installing the stuff. Our solution? -- Your problem! . The entire package made the assumption that it would be installed under /usr/X386, and failing that, that /usr/X11R6 must be quite the same, and the only solution could be to symlink both. . Nevertheless, their shared mwm hard-referenced something like /usr/X11R6/lib/libXm.so.2.0.1 (the actual number might differ, but it was three-digits, the path was hard-coded, and it didn't point into /usr/X386 like the rest of SWiM). I think there were more subtleties that totally upset me by that time, but i forgot them. I've quickly put the floppies aside, and i'm damned sure that i'll never touch'em again. Their promised CD-ROM never arrived. Since i've also heared the horror stories from other people, i gave up in my original intention to even ask or mail them. I figured it being waste of time. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 14:21:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA28798 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28746 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA09311; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:20:43 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA05345; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:20:42 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA11283; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:40:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604122040.WAA11283@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: short writes to pty To: hugh@mimosa.com (D. Hugh Redelmeier) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:39:59 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chuck@bus.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jovehacks@cs.toronto.edu Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199604120809.EAA02022@mimosa.com> from "D. Hugh Redelmeier" at Apr 12, 96 04:09:40 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: The bug has been fixed by Bruce Evans, and Bruce has also pointed out that my opinions were wrong. (Writes on a tty should block and not result in a short write, and reads on a tty in cooked mode should actually return at most one line per read() call.) > JOVE's pty usage is line oriented (hint: don't run vi in a JOVE > i-shell window!), so it is natural for it to simulate cooked mode. > Since JOVE does the line editing (erase and kill processing, > generating tty signals like INTR and QUIT, etc.), it is reasonable for > it to impose the line structure on its writes to the master-side of > the pty. > > I don't think that a partial write would have the right semantics in > this case. > > Much of this reasoning has been based on experimental results: these > corners are poorly documented in most UNIX systems. If you know > better, please tell me. > > | > Notice that the amount returned by the read was the length > | > requested by bash. I think that a pty should return at most a > | > line at a time, even if the read requested more. > | > | What does make you think this? Tty's are not inherently line-bound, > | so if there were more than a line available (regardles of your actual > | problem with the multiple copies here), why should a read() only > | return one line? > > This is a property of cooked mode tty input (aka canonical mode) under > UNIX. I have no idea if bash is using cooked mode. Well, i'm not sure, but don't forget that bash comes with a line- editor of its own. In order to work correctly, it will have to operate in raw mode while the line editor is enabled. It depends on the shell whether or not it detects that it is not running on a ``real tty''. (...) I've just tested it in emacs, and bash does detect there that it should not use its builtin line editor. It might also be interesting to know that emacs purposely tweaks the environment of the spawned shell: bash$ env EMACS=t TERMCAP=emacs:co#80:tc=unknown TERM=emacs ... So if you try to start a vi in this mode, it will refuse to run on the terminal type ``emacs''. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 14:31:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA01362 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bubba.tribe.com ([205.184.207.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA01316 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.tribe.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA17290; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:30:49 -0700 From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199604122130.OAA17290@bubba.tribe.com> Subject: split dns with named To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:30:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is anybody else interested in adding a flag to named which would allow specifying a list of IP addresses for it to bind to, rather than INADDR_ANY? This would enable using named for split DNS in a firewall machine. I'd like to contact the current maintainer of that code -- does anybody know who that is? Thanks, -Archie __________________________________________________________________________ Archie L. Cobbs, archie@tribe.com * Whistle Communications Corporation From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 14:49:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA08454 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maui.com (root@waena.mrtc.maui.com [199.4.33.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08415 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caliban.dihelix.com (caliban.dihelix.com [199.4.33.251]) by maui.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA07436 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:49:52 -1000 Received: (from root@localhost) by caliban.dihelix.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA24980 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:49:38 -1000 (HST) Message-Id: <199604122149.LAA24980@caliban.dihelix.com> Subject: Interesting pgcc results To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:49:38 -1000 (HST) From: "David Langford" From: "David Langford" X-blank-line: This space intentionaly left blank. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have been trying to do some benchmarking with my new computer (PC Importers Deep Green PCI 486 motherboard adn AMD 5x86 160Mhz CPU) Here are three BYTEbench reports all compiled with pgcc. 1) first one is with my normal stock cc -m486 kernel 2) second is with a pgcc -mpentium -O3 kernel 3) third is with a pgcc -mpentium -O3 kernel and entire system (world) built with pgcc -mpentium -O2 - I will send more info on this compile later. #3 is the most confusing- the two benchmarks I have run seem to indicate that the system is a little slower this way :-/ Also if you notice the dates there have been some changes in the current kernel over this time. - BYTE UNIX Benchmarks (Version 3.11) - System -- caliban - Start Benchmark Run: Sun Apr 7 09:31:27 HST 1996 - 3 interactive users. - Arithmetic Test (type = double) 2541.7 13924.6 5.5 - Dhrystone 2 without register variables 22366.3 164463.7 7.4 - Execl Throughput Test 16.5 319.0 19.3 - File Copy (30 seconds) 179.0 2107.0 11.8 - Pipe-based Context Switching Test 1318.5 12342.8 9.4 - Shell scripts (8 concurrent) 4.0 36.7 9.2 - ========= - SUM of 6 items 62.5 - AVERAGE 10.4 Kernel built with pgcc: - BYTE UNIX Benchmarks (Version 3.11) - System -- caliban - Start Benchmark Run: Thu Apr 11 18:31:10 HST 1996 - 2 interactive users. - Arithmetic Test (type = double) 2541.7 13922.4 5.5 - Dhrystone 2 without register variables 22366.3 164075.4 7.3 - Execl Throughput Test 16.5 379.7 23.0 - File Copy (30 seconds) 179.0 2370.0 13.2 - Pipe-based Context Switching Test 1318.5 15169.2 11.5 - Shell scripts (8 concurrent) 4.0 39.7 9.9 - ========= - SUM of 6 items 70.5 - AVERAGE 11.7 Kernel AND everything else in the system built with pgcc: - BYTE UNIX Benchmarks (Version 3.11) - System -- caliban - Start Benchmark Run: Fri Apr 12 09:57:01 HST 1996 - 3 interactive users. - Arithmetic Test (type = double) 2541.7 13979.3 5.5 - Dhrystone 2 without register variables 22366.3 164505.3 7.4 - Execl Throughput Test 16.5 364.4 22.1 - File Copy (30 seconds) 179.0 2194.0 12.3 - Pipe-based Context Switching Test 1318.5 12293.0 9.3 - Shell scripts (8 concurrent) 4.0 40.0 10.0 - ========= - SUM of 6 items 66.5 - AVERAGE 11.1 -- David Langford langfod@dihelix.com FreeBSD caliban 2.2-CURRENT FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Fri Apr 12 08:12:34 HST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 14:51:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA09060 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08743 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA10134; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:50:23 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA05626; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:50:22 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA12178; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:47:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604122147.XAA12178@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: RE: unable to mount / To: surfmwb@nhr.com Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:47:22 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: alex@fa.tdktca.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199604121453.KAA05330@geneva.visi.net> from "surfmwb@nhr.com" at Apr 12, 96 10:53:47 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As surfmwb@nhr.com wrote: > I'm in the process of trying to use the fixit floppy. It boots to the > Boot: then it can't find the kernel. What am I doing wrong or what can I > do at this point? Read my mail again. :-) Don't boot the fixit floppy, it didn't have space for a kernel. Boot the installation floppy, select F)ixit from the menu, *then* enter the fixit floppy. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 14:57:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA11429 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11385 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA10272 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:57:11 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA05707 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:57:11 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA12302 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:56:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199604122156.XAA12302@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: PPP routing problem To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:56:33 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <96Apr12.100227pdt.177475@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> from "Bill Fenner" at Apr 12, 96 10:02:22 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bill Fenner wrote: > As of rev1.23 / rev1.13.4.2 of in_rmx.c, interface routes will remove > unfinished ARP entries as they are installed, leaving no such window. That's great news! (I must have missed this in the commit messages.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 15:03:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA13281 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sisyphos (Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.212.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13155 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by Sisyphos id AA06235 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:02:04 +0200 Message-Id: <199604122202.AA06235@Sisyphos> From: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:02:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: Kees Jan Koster "HDD cpu usage (NOT: IDE vs. SCSI)." (Apr 3, 12:15) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(2) 7/9/95) To: Kees Jan Koster Subject: Re: HDD cpu usage (NOT: IDE vs. SCSI). Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 3, 12:15, Kees Jan Koster wrote: } Subject: HDD cpu usage (NOT: IDE vs. SCSI). } Hoi Hackers, } } When I originally posted my question it was not to (re-)ignite the old } religious war on what system to use. All I want to know is if the CPU usage } by my NCR 53C810 controller is excessive or not. } } Well, I guess the NCR does use a lot of CPU, and this is normal. No, the NCR doesn't use much CPU at all ... Since I seem to have missed your original mail, I don't know why you come to that conclusion. The NCR driver does use some 3% of a i486 CPU for a 5MB/s continuous transfer rate. Most CPU time reading or writing a file is spent in the file system code or the appliocation that has to look at each single byte ... Regards, STefan -- Stefan Esser, Zentrum fuer Paralleles Rechnen Tel: +49 221 4706021 Universitaet zu Koeln, Weyertal 80, 50931 Koeln FAX: +49 221 4705160 ============================================================================== http://www.zpr.uni-koeln.de/~se From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 15:06:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA14468 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.pu.ru (gw.pu.ru [193.124.85.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14422 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (root@localhost) by gw.pu.ru (8.6.10/8.6.6) with UUCP id CAA27782 for freebsd.org!hackers; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 02:09:50 +0400 Organization: SPb State University Received: (from root@localhost) by localhost (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA00175 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:53:25 +0400 From: Alexey Pialkin Message-Id: <199604122153.BAA00175@localhost> Subject: DOSCMD To: freebsd.org!hackers@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:53:24 +0000 (WET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am very glad - i almost run DOSCMD on FreeBSD 2.1 after some deep hacking. It's now work in VM86(i'v patched some kernel files for 2.1 - release), all traps,interrupts ans so on are working fine. Now there is only one problem - some console & 0x10 interrupt problems but i hope i will solve it tomorrow(it's now 01:50 o'clock in St.Petersburg .. |( . BTW,we need to decide what we are going to do - create some VM86 interface (linux like) or extend signals interface(BSDI like). -- /====================================U _a' /( / Alexey Pialkin N ~~ _}\ \( - / Internet: root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru I \(,_(,\\ / FidoNet: 2:5030/247 X ._>, _>,``==> From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 15:28:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA19020 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [206.224.65.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA19002 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA06168 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:28:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob Willcox Message-Id: <199604122228.RAA06168@luke.pmr.com> Subject: Triton-II chipset support? To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (freebsd-hackers) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:28:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does FreeBSD -current and/or -stable support the Triton-II chipset? I have a fileserver that I would truly like to upgrade to a motherboard with the Triton-II chipset so that I can use parity/ECC memory in it. I plan to give this a try sometime this weekend (on a test system :-)) but was wondering what experiences others may have had. Thanks, -- Bob Willcox bob@luke.pmr.com Austin, TX From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 15:35:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA20567 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20532 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA08405; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:35:38 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:35:38 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199604122235.QAA08405@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: A JOSEPH KOSHY , Gary Kline Subject: STDIO resoltion (was Re: Critical stdio bug?) In-Reply-To: <199604120837.AA276558230@fakir.india.hp.com> References: <199604120530.XAA06324@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199604120837.AA276558230@fakir.india.hp.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Basically, the answer to the problem came from Sean Fagan. "<4BSD stdio> has historically had a sticky EOF bit." Chris Torek writes: > More accurately, 4BSD has had this, while System V has not. Someone > (I forget who) once claimed that this solved some kind of otherwise > unsolveable problem, but could not tell me what that was. I *do* > remember that the old vax PCC required two ^Ds to make it quit, > because it did not use stdio, or something like that; and that was > kind of annoying. > > When I wrote my new stdio, I set things up so that one source line > controls whether EOF is `sticky' (in refill.c, I think). To clear the EOF, you must use the function clearerr(), which exists on all of the OS's I have acess to. It also appears that one could change the default behavior as described by "A. JOSEPH KOSHY" in a previous article. Thanks to everyone who explained this to me, especially SEF and Chris! Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 15:51:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA24773 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA24768 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA02723; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:48:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604122248.PAA02723@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Re(2): Lesstif (motif compatible) package. To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:48:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org In-Reply-To: from "Richard Wackerbarth" at Apr 12, 96 08:04:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The problem is that new widgets are a bad idea, in general. "Compatible > > with extensions" is a bad thing, and all you really succeed in doing is > > violating style guidelines. > > > Wrongo. I'm going to say that using custom frobs is bad, and that if you > need a triangular button, your user interface design is bad. > > This assumes that the original "style guidelines" were perfect and that > additional design innovation is bad. Innovation isn't bad. Most of the stuff the programmers who are doing think of as "innovation" isn't. Consider that these people are software engineers, not ergonomics engineers. Just because you are a better programmer than most technical writers doesn't make you a better technical writer than most technical writers. It's the same thing with interface design. In theory, the "style guidelines" are as near perfect as people who are supposed to know about human machine interfaces can make them. It's not totally impossible for Joe programmer to come up with a new widget that solves an unsolved problem that is a real problem that was overlooked by people who spend their professional careers not overlooking such things. And its further possible that the programmer will implement his new widget in accordance with the underlying principles that resulted in the style guide. But it's not very likely. > I guess we should all go back to driving Model "T"'s and program in assembly > language. Yeah, that was the point I was trying to drive home. That's the ticket. Yeah. Yeah. That's the ticket. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 15:55:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA26028 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA26009 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA03590; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 08:50:47 +1000 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 08:50:47 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199604122250.IAA03590@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: koshy@india.hp.com, nate@sri.MT.net Subject: Re: Critical stdio bug? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >nw> OS's, but I had them available). However, on FreeBSD the EOF doesn't >nw> get flushed out when it's read. This is normal (wrong) BSD behaviour. EOF is sticky, even on a terminal. You have to clear the EOF using clearerr(). See the getc man page. >The manual page says: ^ for read() > The system guarantees to read the number of bytes requested if > the descriptor references a normal file that has that many bytes > left before the end-of-file, but in no other case. > [...] > If successful, the number of bytes actually read is returned. Upon read- > ing end-of-file, zero is returned. Otherwise, a -1 is returned and the Input using stdio is quite different from input using read(), unfortunately. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 16:25:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA00143 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA00113 Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA02870; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604122325.QAA02870@austin.polstra.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-announce@freebsd.org Subject: Elfkit-1.2 is now available Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:25:16 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Elfkit version 1.2 is now available. WHAT IS ELFKIT? Elfkit is a collection of tools for compiling and executing ELF programs under FreeBSD-2.1.0-RELEASE and later. It consists of: * Patches for gcc-2.7.2, to make it support ELF under FreeBSD. * Patches for binutils-2.6.0.12, to make it support ELF under FreeBSD. * Patches for libc from FreeBSD-2.1.0-RELEASE, to support building it as an ELF shared library. * An ELF dynamic linker. * A user-level test program that can invoke the dynamic linker to load and execute ELF programs under FreeBSD. The user-level test program is superfluous, if you are running FreeBSD-current. That version of FreeBSD can directly execute ELF programs. WHAT CAN I DO WITH IT? You can compile, link, and execute C and C++ programs. This depends to some extent on what libraries they require. We include patches for an ELF libc. Most other libraries (including all of the X11 libraries) can be built simply by typing "elf-make" in the appropriate source directory. The exceptions are those libraries that include some assembly language code. The math library "libm" is one such library. Unfortunately, "libm" hasn't been converted yet. The output of the linker is a standard, dynamically-linked ELF executable or shared library. WHAT HAS CHANGED SINCE THE LAST RELEASE? We are now using binutils-2.6.0.12 from the Linux project. This release has many ELF-related bug fixes. Also, we now hardly have to patch the binutils release at all, because H.J. Lu was kind enough to merge our FreeBSD/ELF changes into his release. Thanks and a tip of the hat to H.J. Lu, Eric Youngdale, David Engel, Ian Lance Taylor, and the Linux user community, for their hard work in finding and fixing bugs in the binutils ELF support. Note: There have been only very minor changes to gcc. If you already have installed the version from elfkit-1.1, you don't need to bother rebuilding gcc. Major renovation of the "crt*.o" files. They should be functionally complete now. The use of "gcc -shared" for building shared libraries is now supported. In fact, that's the recommended method, because it arranges to link in the proper "crt*.o" files in the right places. C++ support! Static constructors and destructors work properly, even in shared libraries. Added instructions for building libg++-2.7.1. It's a little bit tricky. No longer use GNU malloc, as it's going away in FreeBSD. (It's being replaced by PHK malloc.) Eliminated the "libc/elf" subdirectory. Its contents are no longer necessary, and they interfered with the ELF merge into FreeBSD-current. Fixed a couple of bugs in "libc". Most notable are the fixes to "setjmp" and "sigsetjmp" for PIC code. These functions now work properly, instead of dumping core. Added support for dlopen() and friends. It has not been tested very thoroughly yet. Beefed up some dynamic linker error messages. This is probably the last release based on FreeBSD-2.1.0. (I know, you've heard that before.) We plan to track FreeBSD-current in the future. WHO SHOULD USE ELFKIT? The current release of elfkit is intended for people who want to help develop ELF support under FreeBSD. If you simply want to run ELF programs, and don't want to learn anything else about it, come back in a few months. Elfkit is a work-in-progress, not a finished product. If you use it, you should be prepared to deal with some disruption when new releases come out. For example, the installation procedure and the directory structure could change in future releases. You should also expect that some features won't work right. (Please report such problems to "elfkit-bugs@polstra.com"!) HOW WELL DOES IT WORK? It works surprisingly well! For example, I recently tried "elf-make World" from the top of the XFree86 source tree. It succeeded at building all of the libraries and programs, failing only on the programs that required missing libraries (mostly, "libm"). The programs that built successfully, such as "xclock", seemed to function perfectly. WHERE CAN I GET IT? ftp://ftp.polstra.com/pub/FreeBSD/elfkit/elfkit-1.2.tar.gz WHAT ELSE WILL I NEED? * gcc-2.7.2.tar.gz, from any GNU site. * binutils-2.6.0.12.tar.gz, available from ftp://tsx-11.mit.edu/pub/linux/packages/GCC/binutils-2.6.0.12.tar.gz and other Linux mirror sites. * The sources for libc, from FreeBSD-2.1.0-RELEASE. * The /usr/include tree from FreeBSD-2.1.0-RELEASE. If you want to use C++, you will also need: * libg++-2.7.1, from ftp://prep.ai.mit.edu/pub/gnu/libg++-2.7.1.tar.gz Also available from GNU mirror sites. * GNU make (any reasonably recent version). Available from the FreeBSD ports and packages collections, and of course from any GNU mirror site. If at all possible, you should get your "libc" and "include" sources from one of the FreeBSD mirror sites, or from the FreeBSD-2.1.0 CD-ROM. If that's absolutely impossible for you, you can get them from: ftp://ftp.polstra.com/pub/FreeBSD/elfkit/libc-2.1.0.tar.gz ftp://ftp.polstra.com/pub/FreeBSD/elfkit/include-2.1.0.tar.gz Please try to avoid getting the "libc" and "include" sources from ftp.polstra.com. Its network connection is only a 56K frame relay link. Write to me, if you'd like to make a donation to the "T1 for Polstra" fund. WHERE DO I SEND BUG REPORTS AND COMMENTS? elfkit-bugs@polstra.com WHAT??? You want to ... HELP?! Send mail to "elfkit-bugs@polstra.com" if you'd like to help. -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 16:46:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA01574 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01561 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA05739; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:44:53 +1000 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:44:53 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199604122344.JAA05739@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, holm@unicorn.pppnet.tu-freiberg.de Subject: Re: adjkerntz Cc: ache@astral.msk.su Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >/usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c: In function `main': >/usr/src/sbin/adjkerntz/adjkerntz.c:321: `CPU_WALLCLOCK' undeclared (first use t CPU_WALLCLOCK is declared in . >-current is broken again :-( Nope. Your apparently isn't current. This problem is usually caused by /usr/include/machine/*.h being different from /usr/src/sys/i386/include/*.h. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 17:00:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA02552 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA02547 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.internet.com (yipee-p.internet.com [198.183.190.115]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id RAA10700 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:00:09 -0700 Received: from oneida.internet.com (oneida.internet.com [198.183.190.138]) by mail.internet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA06123 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from reichert@localhost) by oneida.internet.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA19446 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:58:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Reichert Message-Id: <199604122358.TAA19446@oneida.internet.com> Subject: missing structures? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: reichert@internet.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk While trying to get some obscure code compiled under 2.1R, I ran across these macro definitions in sys/sockio.h : #define SIOCSETRTINFO _IOWR('r', 12, struct fullrtentry) /* change aux info */ #define SIOCGETRTINFO _IOWR('r', 13, struct fullrtentry) /* read aux info */ #define SIOCGETVIFINF _IOWR('r', 14, struct vif_conf) /* read m/c vifs */ For the life of me, I could not find out where these structures themselves are defined. Any ideas, or did I do a stupid? From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 12 21:35:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA17733 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.pu.ru (gw.pu.ru [193.124.85.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA17728 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (root@localhost) by gw.pu.ru (8.6.10/8.6.6) with UUCP id IAA03931 for freebsd.org!hackers; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 08:39:30 +0400 Received: from lambert.org (uucp@localhost) by localhost (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id IAA02397; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 08:32:51 +0400 Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by gw.pu.ru (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id DAA29618; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:11:40 +0400 Organization: SPb State University Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA02748; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:03:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604122303.QAA02748@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: DOS emulator; Silly questions ... To: root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru (Alexey Pialkin) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:03:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: lambert.org!terry@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, root@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, FreeBSD.ORG!sos@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, riogrande.cs.tcu.edu!tam@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru, FreeBSD.ORG!hackers@VexedVox.stud.pu.ru In-Reply-To: <199604121158.PAA00331@localhost> from "Alexey Pialkin" at Apr 12, 96 03:58:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > For what else you are going to use VM86 ? The main & sole purpose > > > of it is 8086 emulation => DOS emulation. > > > > The main purpose of VM86() in my book is BIOS driver support and > > fallback support for otherwise unsupportable hardware. > > Do you whant something like WIN95 ? :( On my mind it's not a very nice idea > to use BIOS in all cases - much better to write normal driver.... No. I just want FreeBSD to be able to run, period, on all hardware on which DOS is capable of running. I would call the drivers used to do this "fallback drivers", and they would be my *last* choice for running the system after the load process is complete. If a protected mode driver for a card exists, the kernel (by virtue of fallback drivers being in their own ELF segments) would unload the default fallback driver, as it is no longer needed, and recover the space it uses in the statically linked kernel. The result is the FreeBSD would work with all disk controllers with BIOS on board, with or without someone having written a protected mode driver for it. It would support all console video modes for CGA/EGA/VGA/PGA/XGA or SuperVGA cards via INT 10 BIOS calls. It would support interoperability with DOS partitioning because it wold be able to determine the BIOS geometry for partitioning from protected mode. It would support MCA. With a little work on support for protected mode calls to the "DOS not busy" interrupt, it could support any CDROM for which an ASPI driver was provided by the manufacturer. Yes, it's much better to have a native protected mode driver. But anything that works is better than anything that doesn't. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 08:35:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA28756 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 08:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA28747 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 08:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA18595; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 10:34:37 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199604131534.KAA18595@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: split dns with named To: archie@tribe.com (Archie Cobbs) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 10:34:37 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604122130.OAA17290@bubba.tribe.com> from "Archie Cobbs" at Apr 12, 96 02:30:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes, I would like to see this. > Is anybody else interested in adding a flag to named which would > allow specifying a list of IP addresses for it to bind to, rather > than INADDR_ANY? This would enable using named for split DNS in a > firewall machine. > > I'd like to contact the current maintainer of that code -- does anybody > know who that is? Check with Paul Vixie, at the Internet Software Consortium, IIRC. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 12:28:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA21074 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bubba.tribe.com ([205.184.207.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA21067 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.tribe.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA23373; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:27:21 -0700 From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199604131927.MAA23373@bubba.tribe.com> Subject: Re: split dns with named To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Cc: archie@tribe.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199604131534.KAA18595@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Apr 13, 96 10:34:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Is anybody else interested in adding a flag to named which would > > allow specifying a list of IP addresses for it to bind to, rather > > than INADDR_ANY? This would enable using named for split DNS in a > > firewall machine. > > > > I'd like to contact the current maintainer of that code -- does anybody > > know who that is? > > Check with Paul Vixie, at the Internet Software Consortium, > IIRC. I asked Paul and his response was simply, "4.9.4-T1A will do this". However, I don't know when this version will be available... I didn't see it anywhere on ftp.vix.com yet. -Archie __________________________________________________________________________ Archie L. Cobbs, archie@tribe.com * Whistle Communications Corporation From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 12:47:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA23165 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23158 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.ki.net (root@freebsd.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by ki.net (8.7.4/8.7.4) with ESMTP id PAA01019; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by freebsd.ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA04933; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:48:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:48:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Archie Cobbs cc: Joe Greco , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: split dns with named In-Reply-To: <199604131927.MAA23373@bubba.tribe.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Archie Cobbs wrote: > I asked Paul and his response was simply, "4.9.4-T1A will do this". > However, I don't know when this version will be available... I didn't > see it anywhere on ftp.vix.com yet. > Considering that 4.9.3 *just* came out in release...and they are still working on patches to that, 6mos to a year Marc G. Fournier | POP Mail Telnet Acct DNS Hosting System | WWW Services Database Services | Knowledge, Administrator | | Information and scrappy@ki.net | WWW: http://www.ki.net | Communications, Inc From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 13:17:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA24775 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bacall.lodgenet.com (bacall.lodgenet.com [205.138.147.242]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA24750 Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by bacall.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA21207; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:17:11 -0500 Received: from tserv.lodgenet.com(204.124.120.10) by bacall via smap (V1.3) id sma021205; Sat Apr 13 15:16:42 1996 Received: from jake.lodgenet.com (jake.lodgenet.com [204.124.120.30]) by tserv.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA15332; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:37:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jake.lodgenet.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA06451; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:39:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604131939.OAA06451@jake.lodgenet.com> X-Authentication-Warning: jake.lodgenet.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Andrew V. Stesin" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [?] EQUINOX PCI 8-port serial board -- any opinions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:34:08 +0300." <199604122034.XAA03437@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:39:20 -0500 From: "Eric L. Hernes" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We had one or two of them a while back, you're right they won't work with FreeBSD right now. I saw it work with SCO, whatever that's worth. If you're really sold on a PCI serial card, check out Stallion's, their card works with FreeBSD. It also supports up to 32 (maybe 64) ports off *one* pci slot. If the driver isn't in -current, it's available from ftp.stallion.com. You can probably get more info from Greg Ungerer . eric. "Andrew V. Stesin" writes: >Hello, > >I got a chance to put hands on a 8port PCI serial board, >made by: > EQUINOX > One Equinox Way > Sunrise, Florida 33351-6709 > (954) 746-9000 > (954) 746-9101 fax > >The device name is SST-8P (UNIX version), part No. 990302. >Floppies with some drivers for SCO and other SysV are present. > >As I recall, the device isn't in the "supported" list. But probably >someone already has opinion -- is it worth the time and effort >to try? > >-- > > With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. > > +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 > > "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." > Frank's Management Rule #1. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 13:45:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA26947 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gerard (groudier@uranus.iplus.fr [194.51.186.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA26909 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from groudier@localhost) by gerard (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA00155; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:44:25 GMT Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:44:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Gerard Roudier X-Sender: groudier@gerard To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: Unices are created equal, but ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I was implementing some performances enhancement for "Unix A" kernel. Seems to work fine. I had a look for another Unix in order to compare performances. I had luck, since "Unix B" is installed on my machine on the same hard disk. Unix B is installed at the beginning of the disk media and Unix A at the end. Unix B should have better IO throughput (see below if that's ok or not ok). Then I run the first benchmark I found to prepare the tests. I get the following results: P90/Plato/24MB/NCR53C810/IBMS12. BYTE UNIX Benchmarks (Version 3.11) System -- Unix A gerard 1.3.87 #31 Sat Apr 13 18:34:46 GMT 1996 i586 Start Benchmark Run: Sat Apr 13 21:25:08 GMT 1996 1 interactive users. Dhrystone 2 without register variables 121950.7 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Dhrystone 2 using register variables 121973.7 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = arithoh) 415167.1 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = register) 12996.9 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = short) 12121.0 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = int) 12998.6 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = long) 12993.7 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = float) 15954.7 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = double) 15946.0 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) System Call Overhead Test 65139.8 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Pipe Throughput Test 68105.2 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Pipe-based Context Switching Test 22788.7 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Process Creation Test 774.4 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Execl Throughput Test 267.6 lps (9 secs, 1 samples) File Read (10 seconds) 209771.0 KBps (10 secs, 1 samples) File Write (10 seconds) 18000.0 KBps (10 secs, 1 samples) File Copy (10 seconds) 4116.0 KBps (10 secs, 1 samples) File Read (30 seconds) 212303.0 KBps (30 secs, 1 samples) File Write (30 seconds) 18400.0 KBps (30 secs, 1 samples) File Copy (30 seconds) 3441.0 KBps (30 secs, 1 samples) C Compiler Test 120.4 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Shell scripts (1 concurrent) 265.0 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Shell scripts (2 concurrent) 139.0 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Shell scripts (4 concurrent) 71.0 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Shell scripts (8 concurrent) 36.0 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Dc: sqrt(2) to 99 decimal places 9098.9 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Recursion Test--Tower of Hanoi 2140.5 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) INDEX VALUES TEST BASELINE RESULT INDEX Arithmetic Test (type = double) 2541.7 15946.0 6.3 Dhrystone 2 without register variables 22366.3 121950.7 5.5 Execl Throughput Test 16.5 267.6 16.2 File Copy (30 seconds) 179.0 3441.0 19.2 Pipe-based Context Switching Test 1318.5 22788.7 17.3 Shell scripts (8 concurrent) 4.0 36.0 9.0 ========= SUM of 6 items 73.5 AVERAGE 12.2 BYTE UNIX Benchmarks (Version 3.11) System -- Unix B gerard 2.0.5-RELEASE XXXXXXXXXXXX: Fri Oct 20 00:30:52 1995 gerard:/usr/src/sys/compile/GERARD i386 Start Benchmark Run: Sat Apr 13 21:48:12 1996 1 interactive users. Dhrystone 2 without register variables 130585.3 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Dhrystone 2 using register variables 130526.3 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = arithoh) 413311.1 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = register) 12753.0 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = short) 12066.6 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = int) 12950.6 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = long) 12956.4 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = float) 17777.0 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Arithmetic Test (type = double) 17775.0 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) System Call Overhead Test 45727.8 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Pipe Throughput Test 22094.0 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Pipe-based Context Switching Test 6304.2 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Process Creation Test 240.3 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) Execl Throughput Test 68.1 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) File Read (10 seconds) 115117.0 KBps (10 secs, 1 samples) File Write (10 seconds) 3600.0 KBps (10 secs, 1 samples) File Copy (10 seconds) 3457.0 KBps (10 secs, 1 samples) File Read (30 seconds) 115920.0 KBps (30 secs, 1 samples) File Write (30 seconds) 3533.0 KBps (30 secs, 1 samples) File Copy (30 seconds) 3431.0 KBps (30 secs, 1 samples) C Compiler Test 81.8 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Shell scripts (1 concurrent) 118.0 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Shell scripts (2 concurrent) 60.0 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Shell scripts (4 concurrent) 30.0 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Shell scripts (8 concurrent) 15.0 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Dc: sqrt(2) to 99 decimal places 2518.2 lpm (60 secs, 1 samples) Recursion Test--Tower of Hanoi 2147.1 lps (10 secs, 1 samples) INDEX VALUES TEST BASELINE RESULT INDEX Arithmetic Test (type = double) 2541.7 17775.0 7.0 Dhrystone 2 without register variables 22366.3 130585.3 5.8 Execl Throughput Test 16.5 68.1 4.1 File Copy (30 seconds) 179.0 3431.0 19.2 Pipe-based Context Switching Test 1318.5 6304.2 4.8 Shell scripts (8 concurrent) 4.0 15.0 3.8 ========= SUM of 6 items 44.7 AVERAGE 7.4 Even if this benchmark is a little questionnable, I invite people who say or write that Unix B is FASTER than Unix A to stop, or to say or write the OPPOSITE. Regards, Gerard. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 14:15:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA28558 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28553 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA08117 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:18:59 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:18:59 -0400 Message-Id: <199604132118.RAA08117@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: route with interface names Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk How painful would it be to make the changes to do the following: route add a.b.c.d -interface sl0 the goal is being able to use an interface name rather than an address. (You can do this in Linux). Aside from being easier to use and easier on the eyes, particularly with large static configs, there are situations where interfaces may not have unique addresses (as in an unnumbered serial line scenario). I'm also encountering some cases with virtual interfaces where assigning them addresses is just plain stupid.... except there currently is no choice. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 16:12:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA06811 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06806 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA05779; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:11:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Gerard Roudier cc: hackers@freebsd.org, linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Unices are created equal, but ... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:44:24 -0000." Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:11:42 -0700 Message-ID: <5777.829437102@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Considering that you did not even pick the latest release versions of either OS (2.0.5 is close to a year old and 2.1.0-RELEASE has been out for 4 months), these results are not even germain and you have no excuse, except perhaps laziness, for not running these benchmarks on more recent releases. I could run benchmarks all day on aged Linux kernels, but what would that prove? My stupidity, perhaps, but nothing more. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 16:52:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA08075 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08070 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA04861; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:51:23 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199604132351.SAA04861@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Unices are created equal, but ... To: groudier@iplus.fr (Gerard Roudier) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:51:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu In-Reply-To: from "Gerard Roudier" at Apr 13, 96 10:44:24 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Even if this benchmark is a little questionnable, I invite people who say or > write that Unix B is FASTER than Unix A to stop, or to say or write > the OPPOSITE. > I suggest that you benchmark recent versions of both (say FreeBSD-current vs. Linux-current). FreeBSD fork/exec perf has gone up significantly, among other things. Please compare equivalent vintages. Note also that the Byte/Lmbench benchmarks DO NOT measure systems under significant VM load. Remember, simple algorithms work quickly until you actually use them. John dyson@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 16:54:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA08189 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA08181 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA05968; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:52:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199604132352.QAA05968@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Unices are created equal, but ... To: groudier@iplus.fr (Gerard Roudier) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:52:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu In-Reply-To: from "Gerard Roudier" at Apr 13, 96 10:44:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I was implementing some performances enhancement for "Unix A" kernel. > Seems to work fine. > I had a look for another Unix in order to compare performances. > I had luck, since "Unix B" is installed on my machine on the same > hard disk. > Unix B is installed at the beginning of the disk media and Unix A at the end. > Unix B should have better IO throughput (see below if that's ok or not ok). > > Then I run the first benchmark I found to prepare the tests. > > I get the following results: Amusing. You didn't anonymize the OS version numbers; even so, I could tell the old version of FreeBSD being used because of: Unix A: > Pipe-based Context Switching Test 1318.5 22788.7 17.3 Unix B: > Pipe-based Context Switching Test 1318.5 6304.2 4.8 It is obvious that you are running very old pipe code. Because pipes are use for IPC in the tests, this pretty much invalidates your results. Running a single sample for all cases is also statistically invalid... what happen, cache effeects make "Unix A" look bad? 8-). The integer artimatic is also a dead-giveaway for the old code. The exec and process creation tests are seriously impacted by other factors which are, in my opinion, inapropriately weighted in the benchmark and thus inherently favor "Unix A". Even so, the numbers indicate old code; even though what is being tested is not in fact a "figure of merit", "Unix B" should be able to easily beat "Unix A" on both using current releases of both OS's. The File "I/O" numbers are obviously wieghted on the basis of metadata -- as the "File Copy", which involves simultaneous read and write, clearly shows. This must have been a large number of small files so as to favor playing "fast and loose" with metadata (a well known attribute of "Unix A", and a well known implementation issue in "Unix B", if you use the default FS type in both systems and do not configure their FS mount settings comparably). You should reconfigure one or the other systems away from their default settings: increase the FS robustness defaults for "Unix A" or decrease the FS robustness defaults for "Unix B". The compiler test is similarly affected by pipe overhead (if -pipe is use) or FS settings (if /tmp files are used). In either case, the comparison is invalid, since the compiler code is otherwise identical. Did you use the same shell (ash vs. bash), linked the same way (shared libs vs. static) for the shell tests? This is a case of increasing benchmark performance at the cost of standards compliance. What are the compiler versions and compilation defaults for inlining trancendental functions for the sqrt() test? The recusrion test ws probably unfair to "Unix A", assuming all other comparisons were fair (which they weren't). > Even if this benchmark is a little questionnable, I invite people who say or > write that Unix B is FASTER than Unix A to stop, or to say or write > the OPPOSITE. Or the third option: declaring your procedures scientifically suspect and therefore the results lacking in information content? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 17:13:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA09298 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr (root@athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.91.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA09226 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 02:15 EET DST From: nlan@athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr (Nikos Landrou) To: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Subject: Problem with Xfree86 S3 server Hi I have recently installed FreeBSD 2.1.0 on my computer and i have a big prob trying to run Xfree86... I own a Diamond stealth 64 dram from the 2001 series.. After i configure my video card and monitor with xf86config i type "startx"... The strange thing is, every time i ran Xfree86, my screen became blank, and my computer hanged... (i can't do nothing, not even CTRL-ALT-DEL or CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE) I sent mail at hackers@freebsd.org to ask for help, and they told me to upgrade to 3.1.2D which would support my chipset.. (S3_Trio64V+).. So i did.. i re-runned xf86config to reconfigure my computer.. Now most of the times i run Xfree86, my computer does the same.. It's strange, because even though i don't change nothing, my computer can't always run them... Also, i can't get more than 256 colors.. Just for information, here are my Computer characteristics..: Am5x86-133 with Award PlugnPlay bios. Diamond Stealth 64 DRAM 2001 PCI (S3_Trio64V+) ADAPTEC 2940 PCI scsi controller SEAGATE ST-5660N SCSI Sound Blaster SCSI -------------------------- Here is my XF86Config file: # File generated by xf86config. # # Copyright (c) 1995 by The XFree86 Project, Inc. # # Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a # copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), # to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation # the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, # and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the # Software is furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions: # # The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in # all copies or substantial portions of the Software. # # THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR # IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, # FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL # THE XFREE86 PROJECT BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, # WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF # OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE # SOFTWARE. # # Except as contained in this notice, the name of the XFree86 Project shall # not be used in advertising or otherwise to promote the sale, use or other # dealings in this Software without prior written authorization from the # XFree86 Project. # # ********************************************************************** # Refer to the XF86Config(4/5) man page for details about the format of # this file. # ********************************************************************** # ********************************************************************** # Files section. This allows default font and rgb paths to be set # ********************************************************************** Section "Files" # The location of the RGB database. Note, this is the name of the # file minus the extension (like ".txt" or ".db"). There is normally # no need to change the default. RgbPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb" # Multiple FontPath entries are allowed (which are concatenated together), # as well as specifying multiple comma-separated entries in one FontPath # command (or a combination of both methods) # # If you don't have a floating point coprocessor and emacs, Mosaic or other # programs take long to start up, try moving the Type1 and Speedo directory # to the end of this list (or comment them out). # FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/:unscaled" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/:unscaled" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Speedo/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/" FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/" EndSection # ********************************************************************** # Server flags section. # ********************************************************************** Section "ServerFlags" # Uncomment this to cause a core dump at the spot where a signal is # received. This may leave the console in an unusable state, but may # provide a better stack trace in the core dump to aid in debugging # NoTrapSignals # Uncomment this to disable the server abort sequence # This allows clients to receive this key event. # DontZap # Uncomment this to disable the / mode switching # sequences. This allows clients to receive these key events. # DontZoom # Uncomment this to disable tuning with the xvidtune client. With # it the client can still run and fetch card and monitor attributes, # but it will not be allowed to change them. If it tries it will # receive a protocol error. # DisableVidModeExtension # Uncomment this to enable the use of a non-local xvidtune client. # AllowNonLocalXvidtune # Uncomment this to disable dynamically modifying the input device # (mouse and keyboard) settings. # DisableModInDev # Uncomment this to enable the use of a non-local client to # change the keyboard or mouse settings (currently only xset). # AllowNonLocalModInDev EndSection # ********************************************************************** # Input devices # ********************************************************************** # ********************************************************************** # Keyboard section # ********************************************************************** Section "Keyboard" Protocol "Standard" # when using XQUEUE, comment out the above line, and uncomment the # following line # Protocol "Xqueue" AutoRepeat 500 5 # Let the server do the NumLock processing. This should only be required # when using pre-R6 clients # ServerNumLock # Specify which keyboard LEDs can be user-controlled (eg, with xset(1)) # Xleds 1 2 3 # To set the LeftAlt to Meta, RightAlt key to ModeShift, # RightCtl key to Compose, and ScrollLock key to ModeLock: # LeftAlt Meta # RightAlt ModeShift # RightCtl Compose # ScrollLock ModeLock # To disable the XKEYBOARD extension, uncomment XkbDisable. # XkbDisable # To customise the XKB settings to suit your keyboard, modify the # lines below (which are the defaults). For example, one way to get # a german layout on a 101 key keyboard is to modify the XkbSymbols # line: # XkbSymbols "symbols/us(pc101)+de" # If you have a US Microsoft Natural keyboard, you can use: # XkbSymbols "symbols/us(microsoft)" # XkbGeometry "geometry/microsoft" # These are the default XKB settings for XFree86 # Xkbkeycodes "keycodes/xfree86" # XkbTypes "types/default" # XkbCompat "compat/default" # XkbSymbols "symbols/us(pc101)" # XkbGeometry "geometry/pc" # To specify a keymap file entry to use, use XkbKeymap. This will # override the other Xkb parameters described above. # An example is: # XkbKeymap "xfree86(us_microsoft)" XkbKeymap "xfree86(us)" EndSection # ********************************************************************** # Pointer section # ********************************************************************** Section "Pointer" Protocol "Microsoft" Device "/dev/mouse" # When using XQUEUE, comment out the above two lines, and uncomment # the following line. # Protocol "Xqueue" # Baudrate and SampleRate are only for some Logitech mice # BaudRate 9600 # SampleRate 150 # Emulate3Buttons is an option for 2-button Microsoft mice # Emulate3Timeout is the timeout in milliseconds (default is 50ms) Emulate3Buttons Emulate3Timeout 50 # ChordMiddle is an option for some 3-button Logitech mice # ChordMiddle EndSection # ********************************************************************** # Monitor section # ********************************************************************** # Any number of monitor sections may be present Section "Monitor" Identifier "ctx" VendorName "ctx" ModelName "ctxc" # HorizSync is in kHz unless units are specified. # HorizSync may be a comma separated list of discrete values, or a # comma separated list of ranges of values. # NOTE: THE VALUES HERE ARE EXAMPLES ONLY. REFER TO YOUR MONITOR'S # USER MANUAL FOR THE CORRECT NUMBERS. HorizSync 31.5 - 37.9 # HorizSync 30-64 # multisync # HorizSync 31.5, 35.2 # multiple fixed sync frequencies # HorizSync 15-25, 30-50 # multiple ranges of sync frequencies # VertRefresh is in Hz unless units are specified. # VertRefresh may be a comma separated list of discrete values, or a # comma separated list of ranges of values. # NOTE: THE VALUES HERE ARE EXAMPLES ONLY. REFER TO YOUR MONITOR'S # USER MANUAL FOR THE CORRECT NUMBERS. VertRefresh 50-70 # Modes can be specified in two formats. A compact one-line format, or # a multi-line format. # These two are equivalent # ModeLine "1024x768i" 45 1024 1048 1208 1264 768 776 784 817 Interlace # Mode "1024x768i" # DotClock 45 # HTimings 1024 1048 1208 1264 # VTimings 768 776 784 817 # Flags "Interlace" # EndMode # This is a set of standard mode timings. Modes that are out of monitor spec # are automatically deleted by the server (provided the HorizSync and # VertRefresh lines are correct), so there's no immediate need to # delete mode timings (unless particular mode timings don't work on your # monitor). With these modes, the best standard mode that your monitor # and video card can support for a given resolution is automatically # used. # 640x400 @ 70 Hz, 31.5 kHz hsync Modeline "640x400" 25.175 640 664 760 800 400 409 411 450 # 640x480 @ 60 Hz, 31.5 kHz hsync Modeline "640x480" 25.175 640 664 760 800 480 491 493 525 # 800x600 @ 56 Hz, 35.15 kHz hsync ModeLine "800x600" 36 800 824 896 1024 600 601 603 625 # 1024x768 @ 87 Hz interlaced, 35.5 kHz hsync Modeline "1024x768" 44.9 1024 1048 1208 1264 768 776 784 817 Interlace # 640x480 @ 72 Hz, 36.5 kHz hsync Modeline "640x480" 31.5 640 680 720 864 480 488 491 521 # 800x600 @ 60 Hz, 37.8 kHz hsync Modeline "800x600" 40 800 852 980 1056 600 601 605 628 +hsync +vsync # 800x600 @ 72 Hz, 48.0 kHz hsync Modeline "800x600" 50 800 856 976 1040 600 637 643 666 +hsync +vsync # 1024x768 @ 60 Hz, 48.4 kHz hsync Modeline "1024x768" 65 1024 1032 1176 1344 768 771 777 806 -hsync -vsync # 1024x768 @ 70 Hz, 56.5 kHz hsync Modeline "1024x768" 75 1024 1048 1184 1328 768 771 777 806 -hsync -vsync # 1280x1024 @ 87 Hz interlaced, 51 kHz hsync Modeline "1280x1024" 80 1280 1296 1512 1568 1024 1025 1037 1165 Interlace # 1024x768 @ 76 Hz, 62.5 kHz hsync Modeline "1024x768" 85 1024 1032 1152 1360 768 784 787 823 # 1280x1024 @ 61 Hz, 64.2 kHz hsync Modeline "1280x1024" 110 1280 1328 1512 1712 1024 1025 1028 1054 # 1280x1024 @ 74 Hz, 78.85 kHz hsync Modeline "1280x1024" 135 1280 1312 1456 1712 1024 1027 1030 1064 # 1280x1024 @ 76 Hz, 81.13 kHz hsync Modeline "1280x1024" 135 1280 1312 1416 1664 1024 1027 1030 1064 # Low-res Doublescan modes # If your chipset does not support doublescan, you get a 'squashed' # resolution like 320x400. # 320x200 @ 70 Hz, 31.5 kHz hsync, 8:5 aspect ratio Modeline "320x200" 12.588 320 336 384 400 200 204 205 225 Doublescan # 320x240 @ 60 Hz, 31.5 kHz hsync, 4:3 aspect ratio Modeline "320x240" 12.588 320 336 384 400 240 245 246 262 Doublescan # 320x240 @ 72 Hz, 36.5 kHz hsync Modeline "320x240" 15.750 320 336 384 400 240 244 246 262 Doublescan # 400x300 @ 56 Hz, 35.2 kHz hsync, 4:3 aspect ratio ModeLine "400x300" 18 400 416 448 512 300 301 602 312 Doublescan # 400x300 @ 60 Hz, 37.8 kHz hsync Modeline "400x300" 20 400 416 480 528 300 301 303 314 Doublescan # 400x300 @ 72 Hz, 48.0 kHz hsync Modeline "400x300" 25 400 424 488 520 300 319 322 333 Doublescan # 480x300 @ 56 Hz, 35.2 kHz hsync, 8:5 aspect ratio ModeLine "480x300" 21.656 480 496 536 616 300 301 302 312 Doublescan # 480x300 @ 60 Hz, 37.8 kHz hsync Modeline "480x300" 23.890 480 496 576 632 300 301 303 314 Doublescan # 480x300 @ 63 Hz, 39.6 kHz hsync Modeline "480x300" 25 480 496 576 632 300 301 303 314 Doublescan # 480x300 @ 72 Hz, 48.0 kHz hsync Modeline "480x300" 29.952 480 504 584 624 300 319 322 333 Doublescan EndSection # ********************************************************************** # Graphics device section # ********************************************************************** # Any number of graphics device sections may be present # Standard VGA Device: Section "Device" Identifier "Generic VGA" VendorName "Unknown" BoardName "Unknown" Chipset "generic" # VideoRam 256 # Clocks 25.2 28.3 EndSection # Sample Device for accelerated server: # Section "Device" # Identifier "Actix GE32+ 2MB" # VendorName "Actix" # BoardName "GE32+" # Ramdac "ATT20C490" # Dacspeed 110 # Option "dac_8_bit" # Clocks 25.0 28.0 40.0 0.0 50.0 77.0 36.0 45.0 # Clocks 130.0 120.0 80.0 31.0 110.0 65.0 75.0 94.0 # EndSection # Sample Device for Hercules mono card: # Section "Device" # Identifier "Hercules mono" # EndSection # Device configured by xf86config: Section "Device" Identifier "diamond" VendorName "diamond" BoardName "diaond" #VideoRam 1024 # Use Option "nolinear" if the server doesn't start up correctly # (this avoids the linear framebuffer probe). If that fails try # option "nomemaccess". # # Refer to /usr/X11R6/lib/doc/README.S3, and the XF86_S3 man page. # Insert Clocks lines here if appropriate EndSection # ********************************************************************** # Screen sections # ********************************************************************** # The Colour SVGA server Section "Screen" Driver "svga" Device "Generic VGA" #Device "diamond" Monitor "ctx" Subsection "Display" Depth 8 #Modes ViewPort 0 0 Virtual 320 200 #Virtual 1024 768 EndSubsection EndSection # The 16-color VGA server Section "Screen" Driver "vga16" Device "Generic VGA" Monitor "ctx" Subsection "Display" Modes "640x480" "800x600" ViewPort 0 0 Virtual 800 600 EndSubsection EndSection # The Mono server Section "Screen" Driver "vga2" Device "Generic VGA" Monitor "ctx" Subsection "Display" Modes "640x480" "800x600" ViewPort 0 0 Virtual 800 600 EndSubsection EndSection # The accelerated servers (S3, Mach32, Mach8, 8514, P9000, AGX, W32, Mach64) Section "Screen" Driver "accel" Device "diamond" Monitor "ctx" Subsection "Display" Depth 8 Modes "800x600" ViewPort 0 0 Virtual 800 600 EndSubsection Subsection "Display" Depth 16 Modes "640x480" "800x600" ViewPort 0 0 Virtual 800 600 EndSubsection Subsection "Display" Depth 32 Modes "640x400" ViewPort 0 0 Virtual 640 400 EndSubsection EndSection --------------------------------- Here is the dmesg (system startup messages): FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #0: Sun Apr 7 17:50:38 EET DST 1996 root@myname.my.domain:/usr/src/sys/compile/NIK CPU: i486DX (486-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x4f4 real memory = 20971520 (20480K bytes) avail memory = 18333696 (17904K bytes) Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0: disabled, not probed. lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface lpt1: disabled, not probed. sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A sio2: disabled, not probed. sio3: disabled, not probed. pca0 on motherboard pca0: PC speaker audio driver ahc0 not found aic0 at 0x140-0x15f irq 12 on isa wdc0 not found at 0x1f0 wdc1: disabled, not probed. fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 765 fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in matcdc0: disabled, not probed. wt0: disabled, not probed. npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface sb0 at 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 on isa sb0: sbxvi0 at 0x0 drq 5 on isa sbxvo0: sbmidi0 at 0x330 on isa opl0 at 0x388 on isa opl0: joy0 at 0x201 on isa joy0: joystick Probing for devices on the PCI bus: chip0 rev 49 on pci0:5 ahc0 rev 3 int a irq 9 on pci0:11 ahc0: 2940 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, aic7870, 255 SCBs (ahc0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST5660N 0592" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 520MB (1065664 512 byte sectors) sd0(ahc0:0:0): with 3002 cyls, 4 heads, and an average 88 sectors/track vga0 rev 83 int a irq 10 on pci0:13 sctarg0(noadapter::): Processor Target changing root device to sd0a WARNING: / was not properly dismounted. Note: the same goes with the GENERIC kernel as well.. ----------------------------------- I don't know if you need any other configuration files.. if you do need please tell me.. E-Mail: nlan@athena.aegean.ariadne-t.gr I'm looking forward for your reply. Nikos Landrou From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 17:29:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA10077 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA10069 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14878(6)>; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:28:51 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177475>; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:28:00 -0700 To: reichert@internet.com cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: missing structures? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Apr 96 16:58:44 PDT." <199604122358.TAA19446@oneida.internet.com> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:27:59 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Apr13.172800pdt.177475@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199604122358.TAA19446@oneida.internet.com> you write: >While trying to get some obscure code compiled under 2.1R, I ran across >these macro definitions in sys/sockio.h : These are left over from the 3.3 multicast kernel integration; the first two are an accidental inclusino from a DARTNet research kernel and the third was a piece of RSVP support that was changed to use user-level IPC instead of a kernel call. You can safely remove all three defines, if they are causing you trouble. Bill From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 18:08:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA11581 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA11576 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA19542 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:07:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: pmap_zero_page and kmem_malloc panics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For some reason, our Web/FTP server has been crashing/hanging a lot lately. I was able to take down the reason for two recent ones: panic: kmem_malloc: kmem_map too small panic: pmap_zero_page: CMAP busy The mysterious process deadlock hang also hit a couple of times (can switch virtual consoles, can ping, but nothing else), with no helpful errors logged. I'm going to upgrade to the latest snapshot too see if this problem goes away. The kernel has maxusers=128, SysV IPC options turned on, NMBCLUSTERS=8192, OPEN_MAX=1024, CHILD_MAX=512 and MAXMEM=131072. It isn't running out of mbufs (although it did hit 7202 out of 8192 once) and I doubt it is getting anywhere close to hitting swap. 'top' usually shows about 50MB free when there isn't a mirror process running. The de0 interface sees between 100K to 200K per second both ways on a 10Mbps link to our etherswitch, according to "netstat -b 1". The Web server gets between 3.5 to 4 million hits per week, including those to the 50 IP aliases on de0 (could this a problem?). The FTP server isn't as busy, about 1200 files per day. We've had two crashes already today. The second is the "CMAP busy" one shown above, and it happened less than three hours after a previous crash and reboot. FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #0: Fri Apr 5 13:37:27 EST 1996 taob@cabal.io.org:/usr/local/src/sys/compile/WWW CPU: 133-MHz Pentium 735\\90 or 815\\100 (Pentium-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52b Stepping=11 Features=0x1bf real memory = 134217728 (131072K bytes) avail memory = 130084864 (127036K bytes) Probing for devices on the ISA bus: vt0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard vt0: unknown trident, 80 col, color, 8 scr, mf2-kbd, [R3.20-b24] sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface Probing for devices on the PCI bus: chip0 rev 2 on pci0:0 chip1 rev 2 on pci0:7 de0 rev 18 int a irq 12 on pci0:9 de0: DC21140 [10-100Mb/s] pass 1.2 Ethernet address 00:00:c0:39:41:c8 de0: enabling 10baseT UTP port ncr0 rev 2 int a irq 10 on pci0:11 ncr0 waiting for scsi devices to settle (ncr0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST51080N 0913" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ncr0:0:0): Direct-Access sd0(ncr0:0:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 1030MB (2109840 512 byte sectors) sd0(ncr0:0:0): with 4826 cyls, 4 heads, and an average 109 sectors/track (ncr0:1:0): "QUANTUM XP34301 1051" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1(ncr0:1:0): Direct-Access sd1(ncr0:1:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 4106MB (8410200 512 byte sectors) sd1(ncr0:1:0): with 4076 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 103 sectors/track (ncr0:2:0): "QUANTUM XP34301 1051" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd2(ncr0:2:0): Direct-Access sd2(ncr0:2:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 4106MB (8410200 512 byte sectors) sd2(ncr0:2:0): with 4076 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 103 sectors/track (ncr0:4:0): "QUANTUM XP34301 1071" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd3(ncr0:4:0): Direct-Access sd3(ncr0:4:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 4106MB (8410200 512 byte sectors) sd3(ncr0:4:0): with 4076 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 103 sectors/track vga0 rev 227 int a irq 11 on pci0:12 -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 18:18:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA11877 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA11872 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA19557; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:17:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Gerard Roudier cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Unices are created equal, but ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Gerard Roudier wrote: > > BYTE UNIX Benchmarks (Version 3.11) > System -- Unix A gerard 1.3.87 #31 Sat Apr 13 18:34:46 GMT 1996 i586 [...] > BYTE UNIX Benchmarks (Version 3.11) > System -- Unix B gerard 2.0.5-RELEASE XXXXXXXXXXXX: Fri Oct 20 00:30:52 1995 gerard:/usr/src/sys/compile/GERARD i386 Why are you trying to make an anonymous comparison? It is obvious you are running Linux 1.3.87 as "Unix A" and FreeBSD 2.0.5 as "Unix B". > Even if this benchmark is a little questionnable, I invite people who > say or write that Unix B is FASTER than Unix A to stop, or to say or > write the OPPOSITE. A *little* questionable? I'd say the benchmark is completely useless. Comparing code that was released today with code that was released a year ago proves nothing. Try running at least a stable snapshot of FreeBSD, or better yet a -current release. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 19:00:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA13606 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA13599 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA08586 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:04:14 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:04:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199604140204.WAA08586@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: Unices are created equal, but ... Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >> >> Even if this benchmark is a little questionnable, I invite people who say or >> write that Unix B is FASTER than Unix A to stop, or to say or write >> the OPPOSITE. >> >I suggest that you benchmark recent versions of both (say FreeBSD-current >vs. Linux-current). FreeBSD fork/exec perf has gone up significantly, >among other things. Please compare equivalent vintages. > Nay, compare 1.2.13 with 2.1R. -current and 1.3.x are not products by any stretch....as they're not usable by anyone but hackers. What would you have said if Gates compared his beta kernels to anything? Its meaningless. dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 19:25:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA14682 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com (root@uuneo.neosoft.com [206.109.1.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14673 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nmti.com (ficc@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with UUCP id VAA10779 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:01:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sonic.nmti.com (peter@sonic.nmti.com [198.178.0.2]) by web.nmti.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA06537 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:52:52 -0500 Received: by sonic.nmti.com; id AA14757; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:52:50 -0500 From: peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <9604140152.AA14757@sonic.nmti.com.nmti.com> Subject: Pentium fast copy? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:52:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The following quote from a paper (sorry, I don't know what the paper is offhand) appeared on the Firewalls mailing list. What's FreeBSD like on this front? Our results show that none of the systems adequately delivers the Pentium's memory write performance. For example, the Pentium can copy data at over 160 megabytes/second using a prefetching copy routine, yet none of the systems we tested have implemented such a routine. As described below, the prefetching routines address the fact that the Pentium does not have a write-allocate cache. Without this optimization, the same routines copy data at about 40 megabytes/second. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 20:08:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA16826 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA16798 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id UAA25634 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:07:58 -0700 Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA02547 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:04:37 -0400 From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199604140304.XAA02547@crh.cl.msu.edu> Subject: XImage to PPM routine? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:04:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone out there have a generic XImage to PPM (or to anything) routine available that works for both 8 and 16 bits resolution? -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 20:10:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA17015 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17010 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scooter.quickweb.com (scooter.quickweb.com [199.212.134.8]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id UAA25641 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:10:21 -0700 Received: (from mark@localhost) by scooter.quickweb.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA15447; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:06:33 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:06:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Mayo To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: my hard disk is about to die.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was wondering if anyone would care to make a suggestion on what's the best way to replace a hard disk that is about to go belly up.. I don't know how it happened, but since Christmas my BSD box has become more and more important... it routes several Class C's, does DNS, Gated, and a whole bunch of WWW related crap. Bottom line, I need to MINIMIZE down time. It's an IDE, and I thought about replacing it with a SCSII, but then I thought maybe I could throw mount a second hard disk to the system (IDE) and recreated the entire file structure of the first disk on the new one, then just swap out the disks and turn the machine back on.. but then I thought maybe just a tar file would do. ANyone have any ideas? (I wouldn't mind using a SCSII replacement, but I'm thinking just throwing in another IDE will save time.) Thanks, -Mark :%t$sig -- Oops, thought I was in vi.. ------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | C-Soft www.quickweb.com | ------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 20:46:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA18749 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA18730 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA11976; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:46:21 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199604140416.NAA11976@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Pentium fast copy? To: peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:46:21 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9604140152.AA14757@sonic.nmti.com.nmti.com> from "Peter da Silva" at Apr 13, 96 08:52:50 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter da Silva stands accused of saying: > > The following quote from a paper (sorry, I don't know what the paper is > offhand) appeared on the Firewalls mailing list. What's FreeBSD like on > this front? > > Our results show that none of the systems adequately delivers the > Pentium's memory write performance. For example, the Pentium can > copy data at over 160 megabytes/second using a prefetching copy > routine, yet none of the systems we tested have implemented such a > routine. As described below, the prefetching routines address the > fact that the Pentium does not have a write-allocate cache. > Without this optimization, the same routines copy data at about 40 > megabytes/second. Most of the implementations that have been thrown around here tend to average at about 40M/sec. There have been some significantly faster under certain specialised circumstances, but they tend to perform poorly on older processors, or they fall foul of some of the caching policies imposed by some motherboards, or they impose extra overhead elsewhere in the system (the most common complaint is that context-switches have to become more complex to handle the technique). I'd be really interested to see what sort of hardware they're using that has 160M/sec of memory bandwidth. Unless they're running 100% static RAM, I suspect they've never actually implemented their code on a practical scale 8( -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 20:52:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA19413 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA19406 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA02955; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604140351.UAA02955@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pentium fast copy? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:52:50 CDT." <9604140152.AA14757@sonic.nmti.com.nmti.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:51:30 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >The following quote from a paper (sorry, I don't know what the paper is >offhand) appeared on the Firewalls mailing list. What's FreeBSD like on >this front? > > Our results show that none of the systems adequately delivers the > Pentium's memory write performance. For example, the Pentium can > copy data at over 160 megabytes/second using a prefetching copy > routine, yet none of the systems we tested have implemented such a > routine. As described below, the prefetching routines address the > fact that the Pentium does not have a write-allocate cache. > Without this optimization, the same routines copy data at about 40 > megabytes/second. This is a quote from the Usenix '95 paper comparing several PC operating systems, FreeBSD 2.0.5R being one of them. The bottom line is that we are working on improving this, but some of the "improvements" were recently found to be pessimizations in real-world situations. Not much more to say at this point. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 20:58:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA20046 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20041 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA02986; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604140358.UAA02986@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Re: pmap_zero_page and kmem_malloc panics In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:07:34 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:58:35 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > For some reason, our Web/FTP server has been crashing/hanging a >lot lately. I was able to take down the reason for two recent ones: > >panic: kmem_malloc: kmem_map too small >panic: pmap_zero_page: CMAP busy > > The mysterious process deadlock hang also hit a couple of times >(can switch virtual consoles, can ping, but nothing else), with no >helpful errors logged. > > I'm going to upgrade to the latest snapshot too see if this >problem goes away. The kernel has maxusers=128, SysV IPC options >turned on, NMBCLUSTERS=8192, OPEN_MAX=1024, CHILD_MAX=512 and >MAXMEM=131072. It isn't running out of mbufs (although it did hit >7202 out of 8192 once) and I doubt it is getting anywhere close to >hitting swap. 'top' usually shows about 50MB free when there isn't a >mirror process running. Hi, Brian. The problem here appears to be that your machine is running out of kernel VM for its malloc area. There was a bug in 2.1R and previous releases that caused the space for the malloc VM to be incorrectly sized. The bug was fixed in these commits to kern_malloc.c and related files: ---------------------------- revision 1.19 date: 1996/01/29 11:12:37; author: davidg; state: Exp; lines: +7 -3 Implement what I mentioned in rev 1.18: limit per-bucket allocations to 60% of physical memory or 60% of malloc area size, whichever is smaller. ---------------------------- revision 1.18 date: 1996/01/29 09:58:34; author: davidg; state: Exp; lines: +9 -7 Fixed two bugs in the calculation of the malloc area (kmem_map) size: 1) The calculation didn't account for NMBCLUSTERS, so if a large number of clusters was specified, it would leave little or no space for kernel malloc. 2) It was bogusly restricted to v_page_count. This doesn't take into account the sparseness of the malloc area and would have caused problems on machines with small amounts of memory. It should probably instead be changed to set the malloc limit to be constrained by the amount of memory, but I didn't do this. ---------------------------- ... ---------------------------- revision 1.12.4.1 date: 1996/01/29 11:20:25; author: davidg; state: Exp; lines: +13 -7 Retrofitted changes from revs 1.18 and 1.19: fix bugs with malloc area size calculations. ---------------------------- I strongly encourage you to upgrade the affected machines to -stable. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 21:03:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA20251 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20243 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA08761; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:06:27 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:06:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199604140406.AAA08761@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Gerard Roudier From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: Unices are created equal, but ... Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gerard Roudier says after comparing current linux to Freebsd 2.0.5..... >Even if this benchmark is a little questionnable, I invite people who say or >write that Unix B is FASTER than Unix A to stop, or to say or write >the OPPOSITE I think the NEW thing to say is that Linux is now only 1 year behind FreeBSD. That sounds about accurate. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 13 22:37:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA27127 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA27121 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA20202; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 01:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 01:35:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: David Greenman cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Re: pmap_zero_page and kmem_malloc panics In-Reply-To: <199604140358.UAA02986@Root.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, David Greenman wrote: > > 1) The calculation didn't account for NMBCLUSTERS, so if a large number of > clusters was specified, it would leave little or no space for kernel > malloc. Yep, this definitely would be the case... as I mentioned, I've got NMBCLUSTERS jacked up to 8192 on the Web/FTP machine since I've seen it spike over 5000 several times. BTW, does NMBCLUSTERS have to be a power-2 number, or is that just "convention"? > I strongly encourage you to upgrade the affected machines to -stable. Thanks, David. I will do so immediately. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems and Network Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"