From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 01:34:06 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 10:46:15 +0100 (MET)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199612010946.KAA13506@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: cvsup can't find host - sometimes
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I'm running cvsup of ports by cron a couple of times daily - on weekends
moreoften. Some cvsups run fine, but now and then I have one looking
like that:
Subject: ports CVSsup on blues Sun Dec 1 09:55:40 MET 1996 finished
Parsing supfile "/home/kuku/ports-supfile"
Looking up address of freefall.cdrom.com
Unknown host "freefall.cdrom.com"
(this is from a cvsup -L 2 cvsupfile | mail I send to myself when cvsup
is finished)
Pinging freefall works fine. I'm just wondering whether this is a
network problem (load, nameservers unreachable or some such) or
if it might be a cvsup problem since the lookup is done by the
program and the name search might be not 'hard enough'.
--Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 04:45:11 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612011245.XAA29703@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 23:15:01 +1030 (CST)
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Argh! Aren't there _any_ decent, simple, text windowing libraries out
there?
I've looked at :
- libdialog (of sysinstall fame)
- 'SAA' (from an obscure german FTP site)
- D-Flat
Each of these falls short of expectations in one or more important
fashions. libdialog is zorklike, and Jordan gives off bad emanations
about it. 'SAA' has a hideously unfriendly interface metaphor, and
D-Flat is a DOS monster written with no regard for structure,
documentation or portability.
Has anyone written or used a CUA-style package that offers the basic
stuff; a menubar, popup dialogs, form entry etc.?
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 05:19:07 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
Message-Id: <199612011318.AAA01694@suburbia.net>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-Reply-To: <199612011245.XAA29703@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Dec 1, 96 11:15:01 pm"
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 00:18:08 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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>
> Argh! Aren't there _any_ decent, simple, text windowing libraries out
> there?
>
> I've looked at :
> - libdialog (of sysinstall fame)
> - 'SAA' (from an obscure german FTP site)
> - D-Flat
libslang. in ports.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 05:20:24 1996
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 05:20:20 PST
Message-ID: <11648.849446420@waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu>
From: faried nawaz <nawaz921@cs.uidaho.edu>
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btw:
-- snip snip --
Message-Id: <199611301637.QAA06496@interstice.com>
From: philw@plan9.bell-labs.com
To: inferno@interstice.com
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:32:34 -0500
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I just put the Linux binaries
up on the website.
phil
-- snip snip --
i tried it on my machine (3.0-current) but didn't get very far --
Linux-emul(2746): clone() not supported
can the linux clone syscall be emulated with rfork?
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 05:56:07 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 14:08:06 +0100
From: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de>
Message-Id: <199612011308.OAA03585@campa.panke.de>
To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19961130105432.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961129181531.4983C-100000@modem.eng.umd.edu>
<329F9E2B.1E49@mail.idt.net>
<Mutt.19961130105432.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
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Ollivier Robert writes:
>No, your MTA doesn't add ">" in from of the "From " line in Chuck's message
>and when Net$crap read it, it assumed it was another message. I received it
>fine.
Why we use a ">" and not a space or tab? A ">" may destroy
latex documents (see UNIX-HATERS handbook page 79-81).
Wolfram
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 06:00:43 1996
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Dec 1996 23:15:01 +1030."
<199612011245.XAA29703@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 06:00:32 -0800
Message-ID: <15861.849448832@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Argh! Aren't there _any_ decent, simple, text windowing libraries out
> there?
It sure wouldn't seem like it, no... :-(
> I've looked at :
> - libdialog (of sysinstall fame)
Bleah.
> - 'SAA' (from an obscure german FTP site)
Bleah.
> - D-Flat
Bleah.
> Each of these falls short of expectations in one or more important
> fashions. libdialog is zorklike, and Jordan gives off bad emanations
> about it. 'SAA' has a hideously unfriendly interface metaphor, and
> D-Flat is a DOS monster written with no regard for structure,
> documentation or portability.
Right. And pretty much every other one you'll find, like cdk or the
stuff in ncurses, is either the wrong approach entirely or extremely
difficult to bring into another encapsulation paradigm like TCL. Most
C library designers think that it's OK to have 14 different structure
types being passed around, which makes it a real nightmare for the
encapsulator.
> Has anyone written or used a CUA-style package that offers the basic
> stuff; a menubar, popup dialogs, form entry etc.?
If so, I sure haven't found it yet, and I've looked.
Ultimately, I think what we're going to have to do is design it from
scratch. It might even be kind of fun, but I'm still wrestling with
some of the design concepts and have come up with multiple approaches
to the problem, all of which have various pros and cons going for
them.
One approach would be to take a very high level slice at the problem
and write a series of very generic "presentation objects" (or
"interactors" or whatever the hell you want to call them). They would
basically provide the API for creating, passing data to and asking for
the status of various objects like "list", "dialog" and "form". You'd
see each object in a very high level way, with callback lists and
set/get functions handling all interaction between your frontend and
backend code. If you also add a naming scheme so that an object can
be identified in the hierarchy and queried generically for status or
asked to select itself, you can probably even decouple of concept of
"forms" or "lists" from most of the code - all you really care about
is that you've got some data to display and that the front end is
doing an adequate job, after all, and whether it's a popup menu or a
list becomes fairly arbitrary and should be changable without having
to change anything but the GUI layout description file.
If you then make the method for rendering an object or getting data
from the user a function pointer, you can even back-fill these
functions right before you're set to do final instantiation of the
objects and go into your "event loop", thus decoupling it from curses
or X. E.g.:
DObject *top, *button;
DClass *disp_class;
DInitialize();
top = addDObjects("top_layout.frm");
if (XOpenDisplay(NULL) == NULL)
disp_class = DOpenClass("X11");
else
disp_class = DOpenClass("ncurses");
bindDclass(top, disp_class); /* Traverse object tree and each object
at its display method by looking
the association in disp_class by
object type */
/* Do object specific bindings */
button = DFind(top, "outerpane.buttonpanel.fred");
DBindAction(button, jump_and_puke);
DRealizeAllObjects(top);
while (1) {
if (DProcessNextEvent(top) == DEXIT)
break;
}
Or something like that. :-)
All that really buys you, however, is the ability to shuffle off all
your icky curses or X specific code into a "display class" object, and
you still need to extend every one of your object classes for each new
object you add (unless that object has no meaning for that display
class, in which case I guess its presence would just be a no-op) which
is kind of a downside.
An alternative, of course, would be to go to a different level of
abstraction and have each object make more elementary "drawing
requests" of a generic drawing method class, so a button for example
could say "draw a box around me with these dimensions and then paint
this text string in the middle for my label." The drawing class
would, again, be bound into the object hierarchy in some way right
before initial rendering time, but the objects themselves would be
more generic in that you'd only have to have one essential set of
rendering instructions for each, those instructions would just be
interpreted differently based one whichever global renderer you had
selected. You could add new objects at will, and in only one place,
until/unless you started running into a necessity for wholly new set
of drawing primitives.
Needless to say, I rejected the latter alternative on the grounds that
the problem was becoming over-engineered and it's probably bogus to
think that you can invent a mini graphics library that's going to make
reasonable looking objects for any conceivable environment. :-)
The final alternative I contemplated was to make the generic object
hierarchy but simply have different versions of the library for curses
and X. E.g. you'd write the entire library as a single hierarchy of
objects, complete with their rendering methods, and stick to a common
naming convention. Then you make your main() selectively load a
different shared library based on whether it's running under X or not
and your "button" suddenly becomes a X or curses button by virtue of
the way the shared library binding works. This would be the simplest
of the 3 scenarios but still require that you extend each version of
the library in the same ways (e.g. if I add a machine gun object for
closing windows then I've got to do it in all versions of the
library).
Doing all of this in X is simple and has lots of alternatives, up to
and including lots of nice toolkits like "Qt" or XForms. The problem
is that making stuff look nice in ncurses is a pain in the ass, and
effective use of color and the line-drawing character set on syscons
displays even more so. I was kind of hoping that an ncurses expert
would show himself by now, but evidently not. :-( I could do the X
side of this with my eyes closed, but not the curses stuff. Every
time I think I have its simple-*sounding* model all figured out,
refresh() does things to the screen which leave me mystified.
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 06:16:34 1996
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cc: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Dec 1996 06:00:32 PST."
<15861.849448832@time.cdrom.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 06:16:25 -0800
Message-ID: <18528.849449785@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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Whoops, one embarassing typo which makes this harder to understand
than it needs to be:
> All that really buys you, however, is the ability to shuffle off all
> your icky curses or X specific code into a "display class" object, and
> you still need to extend every one of your object classes for each new
^^^^^^ display :-)
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 06:39:50 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 14:55:19 +0100
From: se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser)
To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers list)
Subject: Re: Racal Interlan ethernet card: any good?
References: <199611302336.AAA25716@yedi.iaf.nl>
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In-Reply-To: <199611302336.AAA25716@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Dec 1, 1996 00:36:54 +2500
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On Dec 1, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) wrote:
> Hi
>
> I just picked up a AM79C970-based Racal Interlan PCI ethernet card.
> It's probably called 'Interlan PCI T2' from the looks of a little sticker
> on the board.
>
> Any chance that the lnc driver will work with this puppy? Any experiences
> with this particular card?
No experience, but it should be supported by the lnc driver.
I added the Lance PCI probe code to -current half a year ago,
and got no complaints (which means it works or isn't used :)
You need a config line for "lnc0 at isa?", and the PCI card
will then be "lnc1" (the later ISA probe could still find an
ISA card at the port address specified).
Please do NOT configure the lnc0 to probe the port address
assigned by the PCI BIOS. It will then be found twice (as PCI
and later as ISA card). There still is no conflicts check
between PCI and ISA. (On my ToDo list for a long time now ...)
Let me know whether it works for you!
> It's second hand, so I'm gonna try it in a experimental system first before
> putting it into my main machine.
I've seen them offered for less than $50 (by mail order).
They should be much better than the NE2000 PCI clones, which
require port I/O accesses to the on-board SRAM (and cost less
than $30).
Regards, STefan
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
From: Eka Kelana <eka@werty.wasantara.net.id>
Subject: xview error ?!?!
Cc: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
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Hi...
I got several error messages like this when compiling my xview program:
... undefined symbol '_cfree' referenced from text segment ...
Well, I believe it happened because the FreeBSD standard library doesn't
provide any cfree() function. In my program, I could change cfree() function
with another similar function, free(), which releases the memory allocated
by calloc() function. But the last thing left is, the same error happened
because the cfree() funtion is referenced from xview library
(libXview.so.3.2). I couldn't work it off because the lack of the source code.
Is there anybody here who can help me?
-Eka K.-
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 07:36:47 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 10:35:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, jehamby@lightside.com,
hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
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On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > Oh? Something you heard at Comdex? Now that's interesting!
>
> Yes, keep your eyes on the ALPHA/PC market. I just picked up a 500MHz
> ALPHA Durango system with 128MB of memory and all the trimmings for
> just over $5K. If I'd wanted a slightly smaller drive or less memory,
> I could have come in well under this. That's quite a lot of machine
> for not a lot of money.
Just as a side note, check out NekoTek as well (www.alphapower.com). They
tend to be very cheap - a year ago they were even less expensive than
Aspen and Micro Way. I'm not sure if that's the case anymore...
And keep your eyes no Digital's "Personal Workstation" line - they all
ship with the CPU/chipset on a daughter card, so you can swap out your
PPro and boot with an Alpha :-) I have a development model right now, and
it's damn fast even with a PPro plugged in..
>
> > > 1) Dead architecture. :-)
> >
> > That sounds a _little_ harsh.
>
> I only believe what I read in PowerPC News - You know, that
> publication that closed its doors with a dirge in the last issue for
> the PowerPC architecture, citing insufficient interest even among its
> most principle sponsors (IBM / Motorola) and a failure to live up to
> all the promised increases in performance these last 3 years.
>
I'm curious, has the "PowerPC Platform" spec been released now?? I know it
has been long awaited since it's suppose to finally open up the PowerPC
clone market, and provide a standard for multiple OS machines... And can
you buy one of these machines yet?
Also, has anyone heard anything from Exponential Technology lately? Are
they actually going to pull it off?? The last I heard they were
predicting the first chip to appear in 2nd quarter 97 running at 300-400
MHz, promising a 500MHz by late 97 / early 98. Are they on track? When I
checked 2 months ago, they still hadn't put any of the design to silicon
(or galium arsenide I suppose forthe bi-polar logic). Also, did anyone
ever figure out what they were doing with that patent that let them share
instructions sets in registers? The press seemed to think they were
working on hardware emulation for the x86 (making it a PPC 615 decendant I
guess) or the 680x0 . They seem to be the only company offering anything
interesting in the PowerPC line these days... I'm just not confident that
it will happen.
If the breakthroughs happen with the PowerPC (Exponential, 500 MHz,
PowerPC Platform, BeBox) it could be a worthwhile chip to support. Until
then, however, I think I'd like an Alpha port of FreeBSD! The Alpha is the
fastest chip, and don't think they're about to stand aside and let some
upstart PowerPC manufacturer to shoot past them ;-) Also, considering
DEC's recent attempts to get into bed with Microsoft, and the pressure now
being placed upon NT for "only being 32-bit", I think the Alpha may
be well on it's way to becoming a competitor in the 'PC' world =)
Of course, if I could boot between MacOS, BeOS, AIX, NT, Linux,
(?FreeBSD?) on a PowerPC Platform machine, I'd definately own one of
those!
One more thing: wasn't Terry doing something with FreeBSD and PowerPC's ?
cya,
-Mark
---------------------------------------------------
| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com |
| RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark |
---------------------------------------------------
"To iterate is human, to recurse divine."
- L. Peter Deutsch
> The BeBOX is quite interesting, but not because of its dual-PowerPCs;
> it's interesting because of the other hardware within it and its
> operating system.
>
> Jordan
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 08:23:04 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612011613.RAA14412@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: Racal Interlan ethernet card: any good?
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:13:32 +0100 (MET)
Cc: se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19961201145519.se@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> from Stefan Esser at "Dec 1, 96 02:55:19 pm"
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As Stefan Esser wrote:
> No experience, but it should be supported by the lnc driver.
> I added the Lance PCI probe code to -current half a year ago,
> and got no complaints (which means it works or isn't used :)
>
> You need a config line for "lnc0 at isa?", and the PCI card
> will then be "lnc1" (the later ISA probe could still find an
> ISA card at the port address specified).
Does the line
device lnc0 at isa? port 0x280 net irq 10 drq 0 vector lncintr
in GENERIC count for this? If so, i'll leave for a business trip
tomorrow, and i know that this customer is also using HP Vectras which
come with a builtin Lance-derived PCI ethernet adaptor. While i know
that an older version of FreeBSD runs on them fine using the PCI
addresses in the ISA driver (you certainly remember, Stefan), i can
also stick a plain installation floppy there and see whether it will
detect the card.
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 09:33:32 1996
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From: StevenR362@aol.com
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To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: cvsup can't find host - sometimes
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In a message dated 96-12-01 04:44:13 EST, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de
(Christoph Kukulies) writes:
> Parsing supfile "/home/kuku/ports-supfile"
> Looking up address of freefall.cdrom.com
> Unknown host "freefall.cdrom.com"
>
> (this is from a cvsup -L 2 cvsupfile | mail I send to myself when cvsup
> is finished)
>
> Pinging freefall works fine. I'm just wondering whether this is a
> network problem (load, nameservers unreachable or some such) or
> if it might be a cvsup problem since the lookup is done by the
> program and the name search might be not 'hard enough'.
>
I get this also on a 14.4 dialup connection while doing a couple of
simultaneous ftp's. It seems to be the result of a slow/overloaded link
and a timeout.
Steve
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 10:51:15 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
Message-Id: <199612011851.FAA04685@suburbia.net>
Subject: cyclades PCI driver doesn't detect carrier drop
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 05:51:04 +1100 (EST)
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Whois the best person to conectact about this? -
Very trying to say the least ;)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 11:22:46 1996
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To: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: cyclades PCI driver doesn't detect carrier drop
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 05:51:04 +1100."
<199612011851.FAA04685@suburbia.net>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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>Whois the best person to conectact about this? -
>Very trying to say the least ;)
Are you sure that this isn't operator error? You do have hupcl & -clocal
for your ports, right? Note that the device names changed and thus your
/etc/rc.serial may be out of date...or perhaps you don't even have entries
in there to set the initial state?
-DG
David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 11:26:05 1996
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Message-Id: <199612011925.LAA18010@covina.lightside.com>
To: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, jehamby@lightside.com,
hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 11:24:05
From: "Jake Hamby" <jehamby@lightside.com>
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Mark Mayo wrote:
>On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> I only believe what I read in PowerPC News - You know, that
>> publication that closed its doors with a dirge in the last issue for
>> the PowerPC architecture, citing insufficient interest even among its
>> most principle sponsors (IBM / Motorola) and a failure to live up to
>> all the promised increases in performance these last 3 years.
>>
>
>I'm curious, has the "PowerPC Platform" spec been released now?? I know it
>has been long awaited since it's suppose to finally open up the PowerPC
>clone market, and provide a standard for multiple OS machines... And can
>you buy one of these machines yet?
Yes, and soon. IBM has their "Long Trail" motherboard, and Motorola has their
Yellowknife. Both are available as reference implementations to clone makers,
so PPCP systems will be in full swing next year. As for PowerPC News, I'm
inclined to agree that the PowerPC architecture was dismal as recently as
last year (when it topped out at 100MHz). However, the 620 is back on track,
clock speeds are up (up to 225MHz), and IBM and Motorola have realistic plans
to keep the architecture competitive with Intel on performance (and with better
price/performance) in the coming years. Unlike Intel, new CPU's from IBM and
Motorola will be available immediately on consumer machines (at lower clock speeds),
instead of coming out first for servers (i.e. Pentium Pro) and then trickling down
to consumers. In other words, I'm more excited about PowerPC then I've ever been.
>Also, has anyone heard anything from Exponential Technology lately? Are
>they actually going to pull it off?? The last I heard they were
>predicting the first chip to appear in 2nd quarter 97 running at 300-400
>MHz, promising a 500MHz by late 97 / early 98. Are they on track? When I
>checked 2 months ago, they still hadn't put any of the design to silicon
>(or galium arsenide I suppose forthe bi-polar logic). Also, did anyone
>ever figure out what they were doing with that patent that let them share
>instructions sets in registers? The press seemed to think they were
>working on hardware emulation for the x86 (making it a PPC 615 decendant I
>guess) or the 680x0 . They seem to be the only company offering anything
>interesting in the PowerPC line these days... I'm just not confident that
>it will happen.
Yes, they are on track! The chip is the X704, it's available in samples, and
will be available in volume at several clock speeds, including 533MHz, next year.
The price is high ($1000/CPU) but no more than a high-end Alpha. It is
pin-compatible with the 604, has a built-in L2 cache, and the technology
(bi-polar logic) is scalable well into the gigahertz range. Of course it dissipates
75-85 watts of heat (!), but nothing a heat sink can't take care of, and the
PowerMac 9500 power supply is beefy enough to handle it without trouble.
The good thing about the Exponential is that it provides a high-end for the
PowerMac users in the DTP market, and pushes the price of the 604 down for
the rest of us. And I still believe dual or quad CPU's are a more realistic
means for the highest price/performance than a single expensive CPU. If only
more OS's recognized this and had robust SMP support...
>If the breakthroughs happen with the PowerPC (Exponential, 500 MHz,
>PowerPC Platform, BeBox) it could be a worthwhile chip to support. Until
>then, however, I think I'd like an Alpha port of FreeBSD! The Alpha is the
>fastest chip, and don't think they're about to stand aside and let some
>upstart PowerPC manufacturer to shoot past them ;-) Also, considering
>DEC's recent attempts to get into bed with Microsoft, and the pressure now
>being placed upon NT for "only being 32-bit", I think the Alpha may
>be well on it's way to becoming a competitor in the 'PC' world =)
Well, that's assuming FreeBSD/Alpha is 64-bit (reasonable, considering the Linux
port is). As I said, the Exponential CPU looks impressive, but we'll have to wait
and see what its real-world performance is. In the meantime, either platform is
a good choice for a FreeBSD port, but it appears the mindshare has moved
towards Alpha. Since FreeBSD is being used more on servers, Alpha is a logical
choice when the PPro isn't enough. Since UNIX has "lost the desktop", I guess
BeOS, MacOS, and NT Workstation, will become the big choices for PowerPC, not
AIX or Linux (or FreeBSD).
>Of course, if I could boot between MacOS, BeOS, AIX, NT, Linux,
>(?FreeBSD?) on a PowerPC Platform machine, I'd definately own one of
>those!
That's the appeal of PPCP. In reality, most people will stick with one or two
OS's, but I'm a weirdo, and the idea of running ALL of them does appeal to me
(just as I've booted FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, Win95, and NT from a single PC :-).
The advantage of a "universal" system lies in lower hardware prices, as the
computer becomes a commodity, much as the PC/AT standard is now.
>One more thing: wasn't Terry doing something with FreeBSD and PowerPC's ?
I think so, but I don't know if it's still on track.
>> The BeBOX is quite interesting, but not because of its dual-PowerPCs;
>> it's interesting because of the other hardware within it and its
>> operating system.
>>
>> Jordan
I am 100% convinced that Be chose the right CPU with the PowerPC. The name
of the game is not performance, but price/performance, when four commodity
CPU's can be used to outperform a single high-end Alpha, at a lower total price.
Be could have chosen Alpha, but I still believe the lack of a second-source is
going to keep volume low, and price high. Finally, Intel is not even in the picture,
not because of the CPU, but because then people would want BeOS/x86, and the
huge difficulty of supporting all the bizarre motherboard and device driver
combinations would surely gain tiny Be a reputation worse than OS/2 as they
struggle (and fail) to support them.
-- Jake
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 11:40:55 1996
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Subject: Re: cvsup can't find host - sometimes
In-Reply-To: <961201123255_1751372447@emout01.mail.aol.com> from "StevenR362@aol.com" at "Dec 1, 96 12:32:56 pm"
To: StevenR362@aol.com
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 22:26:07 +0300 (MSK)
Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (Andrey A. Chernov) <ache@nagual.ru>
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> In a message dated 96-12-01 04:44:13 EST, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de
> (Christoph Kukulies) writes:
>
> > Parsing supfile "/home/kuku/ports-supfile"
> > Looking up address of freefall.cdrom.com
> > Unknown host "freefall.cdrom.com"
> >
> > (this is from a cvsup -L 2 cvsupfile | mail I send to myself when cvsup
> > is finished)
> >
> > Pinging freefall works fine. I'm just wondering whether this is a
> > network problem (load, nameservers unreachable or some such) or
> > if it might be a cvsup problem since the lookup is done by the
> > program and the name search might be not 'hard enough'.
> >
> I get this also on a 14.4 dialup connection while doing a couple of
> simultaneous ftp's. It seems to be the result of a slow/overloaded link
> and a timeout.
I saw it too without any overload on my 28.8K dialup connection.
It not only freefall.cdrom.com but cvsup.nl.freebsd.org too.
--
Andrey A. Chernov
<ache@nagual.ru>
http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 12:05:07 1996
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To: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, jehamby@lightside.com,
hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
References: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961201101157.23827A-100000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
From: Paul Richards <p.richards@elsevier.co.uk>
Date: 01 Dec 1996 20:02:56 +0000
In-Reply-To: Mark Mayo's message of Sun, 1 Dec 1996 10:35:32 -0500 (EST)
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Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com> writes:
> Just as a side note, check out NekoTek as well (www.alphapower.com). They
> tend to be very cheap - a year ago they were even less expensive than
> Aspen and Micro Way. I'm not sure if that's the case anymore...
That's who I got one of my Multia's from. After importing it to the UK
it cost my around 750 quid which seemed pretty cheap to me, even for a
discontinued line, certainly cheap enough to buy a couple just to play
with a new architecture.
> I'm curious, has the "PowerPC Platform" spec been released now?? I know it
> has been long awaited since it's suppose to finally open up the PowerPC
> clone market, and provide a standard for multiple OS machines... And can
> you buy one of these machines yet?
>
Which to me is the biggest reason I bought some Alphas, Dec are making
a lot of their documentation available as pdf on their web
site. There's enough info out there to do a port. I even found a book
that explained the PAL implementations for OSF, NT and OpenVMS (forget
what it's called though).
When do we start? I've got a week of free evenings next week
(girlfriend's on holiday :-)).
--
Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor)
Elsevier Science TIS online journal project.
Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk
Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 12:08:09 1996
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To: se@FreeBSD.org (Stefan Esser)
Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte),
FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers list)
Subject: Re: Racal Interlan ethernet card: any good?
References: <199611302336.AAA25716@yedi.iaf.nl> <Mutt.19961201145519.se@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de>
From: Paul Richards <p.richards@elsevier.co.uk>
Date: 01 Dec 1996 20:06:01 +0000
In-Reply-To: se@FreeBSD.org's message of Sun, 1 Dec 1996 14:55:19 +0100
Message-ID: <57bucec9na.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk>
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se@FreeBSD.org (Stefan Esser) writes:
> I've seen them offered for less than $50 (by mail order).
> They should be much better than the NE2000 PCI clones, which
> require port I/O accesses to the on-board SRAM (and cost less
> than $30).
Where from? I've searched high and low for PCI cards and
can't find them anywhere in the UK mags. ALl ads are for the Dec chips
or NE2000 clones. If I could find one of these cards I'd do some more
work on the driver, like implementing a 32 bit version for a start.
--
Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor)
Elsevier Science TIS online journal project.
Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk
Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 12:27:07 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 12:24:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Julian Elischer <julian@current1.whistle.com>
To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Internet world
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On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, dennis wrote:
Whistle will be there (but not me)
>
> Anyone going?
>
> Dennis
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 12:35:24 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 96 18:10:07 +0100
From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer)
Message-Id: <9612011710.AA00991@wavehh.hanse.de>
To: nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
References: <11648.849446420@waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu>
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nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU (faried nawaz) wrote;
>>I just put the Linux binaries
>>up on the website.
>i tried it on my machine (3.0-current) but didn't get very far --
>Linux-emul(2746): clone() not supported
>can the linux clone syscall be emulated with rfork?
The Linux clone() syscall will also support options to share the PID
and the signal mask.
The additonal options are needed to produce a Posix-compatible thread
interface that has no userlevel threads anymore. Linus claims Linux
syscalls are fast enough to be acceptable even in applications with
heavy use of locking (and therefore resheduling by the kernel).
These options don't work for now, so it's a good bet that inferno uses
only shared memory options. They probably don't need Posix
compatiblity for their Threads.
The existing Posix library above the clone() syscall looks pretty nice
and could be ported to FreeBSD quite easily (mostly sheduler
interfacing), but to make rfork() the base for a Posix-kompatible
Interface, it will have to get the PID and mask options, too.
As a side note: while Sun's JDK doesn't support any kernel-shedulable
thread interface on Unix (the Solaris port uses green threads), the
Inferno folks not only offer a Linux port, but it obviously has a
thread interface that supports multiple processors. I bet they didn't
even cared about existing libraries and just did their own on top of
clone(). The Java folks at Sun still tangle with their own threads
(http://java.sun.com/people/pavani/techconf.html). Could make me
think...
Regarding Inferno on FreeBSD, why not just take the constants for
Linux' clone() and add a function to Linux compatiblity that calls
rfork()? I'm busy with other ports for 2.2, sorry.
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin_Cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de http://cracauer.cons.org Fax.: +4940 5228536
"As far as I'm concerned, if something is so complicated that you can't ex-
plain it in 10 seconds, then it's probably not worth knowing anyway"- Calvin
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 12:38:12 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 15:33:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Kjell E Grotland <kegrotla@korrnet.org>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC
In-Reply-To: <199611261820.LAA25347@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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Thanks to all, Terry, Michael, Warner and all others who replied to my
inquiry concerning running FreeBSD on my IBM 57SLC and also concerning
running FreeBSD on a MAC PowerPC. Unfortunatly i am not as technically
literate as i would like to be but i have digested the gist of the
information (which i really appreciated receiving) and will continue
reading more to try to catch up with all the technical stuff. Where can
one get ahold of NetBSD? Again i really appreciate all of your input into
these questions of mine. Its been a while since ive been in the computer
business, almost a year now, so i am slowly loosing my knowledge base
through loss of use :-)). So please keep the information coming and ill
try assimilate it as best i can.
Thank you,
Kjell
Kjell E. Grotland
kegrotla@korrnet.org
Where do you seek the Beloved?
On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > Oh by the way i have heard a rumour that MAC PowerPCs will support
> > FreeBSD. Any truth to this. That would be just totally awsome. Running
> > FreeBSD on a RISC chip machine.
>
> Depends.
>
> Will they ever be as documented as the Motorolla Ultra 603/604
> motherboards Soled by FirePower systems, Arrow Electronics, and
> used in Motorolla PowerStack systems?
>
> I have been unable to get my hands on the touted-for-Linux OSF/Mach
> hardware interface so far, which is supposedly the only publically
> available "documentation".
>
> Even so, the hardware it applies to is the new Mac's, *NOT* the 6100,
> 7100, 8100 NuBus systems. So if you can buy it used for a resonable
> price, it won't run (ever) unless Apple documents it.
>
> There is some indication from the NetBSD camp that the Mach code is
> (like the Tennon Systems MACH-10) running through the ROM's.
>
> This means that the drivers are single threaded, non-reentrant, and
> a huge bottleneck to multiprocessing (hey! Just like running MacOS
> on top of those same ROM's!).
>
> I know I've been arguing for BIOS-based fallback drivers for PC's
> for forever, but they are not something on which one could safely
> base an entire port (yes, I know the 1.1.5 PS/2 port which was never
> released used ABIOS calls; ABIOS is not BIOS is not Mac ROM's).
>
> Most likely I will be hacking on a BeBox after the SMP stuff is
> committed and the Intel MP spec is abstracted under a HAL used by
> the kernel (surprisingly, PPC based machines don't follow the Intel
> MP spec... go figure 8-)).
>
>
> Regards,
> Terry Lambert
> terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 13:37:58 1996
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To: Kjell E Grotland <kegrotla@korrnet.org>
Cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@netbsd.org>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@netbsd.org>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 13:26:45 -0800
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On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 15:33:15 -0500 (EST)
Kjell E Grotland <kegrotla@korrnet.org> wrote:
> reading more to try to catch up with all the technical stuff. Where can
> one get ahold of NetBSD? Again i really appreciate all of your input into
...might start with www.netbsd.org and ftp.netbsd.org.
Also, there's a mailing list, port-powerpc@netbsd.org, dedicated
to NetBSD/powerpc.
(Same goes for NetBSD/alpha, BTW :-)
Jason R. Thorpe
<thorpej@NetBSD.ORG>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 14:32:23 1996
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Message-ID: <Mutt.19961201225723.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 22:57:23 +0100
From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961129181531.4983C-100000@modem.eng.umd.edu> <329F9E2B.1E49@mail.idt.net> <Mutt.19961130105432.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr> <199612011308.OAA03585@campa.panke.de>
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In-Reply-To: <199612011308.OAA03585@campa.panke.de>; from Wolfram Schneider on Dec 1, 1996 14:08:06 +0100
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According to Wolfram Schneider:
> Why we use a ">" and not a space or tab? A ">" may destroy
> latex documents (see UNIX-HATERS handbook page 79-81).
Don't ask me :-)
There are several ways to handle it:
1. use "quoted-printable" as C-T-E: and =46 in place of "F",
2. use >From (the Standard Way(TM)),
3. use Content-Length (only SVR4's mail generates it).
It depends on both your MTA and MUA...
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 14:32:25 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 23:16:34 +0100
From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: xview error ?!?!
References: <199612011453.VAA01074@werty.wasantara.net.id>
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In-Reply-To: <199612011453.VAA01074@werty.wasantara.net.id>; from Eka Kelana on Dec 1, 1996 21:53:35 +0700
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According to Eka Kelana:
> I got several error messages like this when compiling my xview program:
>
> ... undefined symbol '_cfree' referenced from text segment ...
Link with -lcompat.
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 14:56:36 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 23:18:53 +0100
From: freebsd@xaa.stack.nl ("FreeBSD matters of Mark Huizer (xaa)")
To: ache@nagual.ru (?????????????)
Cc: StevenR362@aol.com, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de,
freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: cvsup can't find host - sometimes
References: <961201123255_1751372447@emout01.mail.aol.com> <199612011926.WAA00759@nagual.ru>
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> > > (this is from a cvsup -L 2 cvsupfile | mail I send to myself when cvsup
> > > is finished)
> > >
> > > Pinging freefall works fine. I'm just wondering whether this is a
> > > network problem (load, nameservers unreachable or some such) or
> > > if it might be a cvsup problem since the lookup is done by the
> > > program and the name search might be not 'hard enough'.
> > >
> > I get this also on a 14.4 dialup connection while doing a couple of
> > simultaneous ftp's. It seems to be the result of a slow/overloaded link
> > and a timeout.
>
> I saw it too without any overload on my 28.8K dialup connection.
> It not only freefall.cdrom.com but cvsup.nl.freebsd.org too.
>
Perhaps we could check that out from both sides :-)
Perhaps if I put the logfile of cvsup.nl.freebsd.org next to your dialin
behaviour, I can check if I can come up with something.
Does this also happen (something worth testing) with the 'real' hostname
alterego.stack.nl? Perhaps some nameserver is taking a little time or
something (perhaps even the machine was just down :-)
Mark Huizer
(xaa@stack.nl)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 15:07:17 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612012248.PAA08406@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Lex/Yacc question
To: stesin@gu.net (Andrew Stesin)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 15:48:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.961130132144.26636A-100000@creator.gu.kiev.ua> from "Andrew Stesin" at Nov 30, 96 01:22:43 pm
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> On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Terry Lambert wrote:
> >
> > Because of RFC1341/RFC1342 syntax extensions.
> >
> Do you mean RFC#1521/RFC#1522 ? (The ones you noticed are obsolete,
> AFAIK).
Yes.
But, of course, I want to be able to use a switch to set compliance
level, actually, so 1341/1342 are included.
Didn't 1341 describe the EHLO mechanism, still in use? Was that part
superceded as well?
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 15:09:08 1996
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To: mrcpu@cdsnet.net
Subject: Re: Is there a CVSUP mirror kit?
Newsgroups: polstra.freebsd.hackers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.95.961126112453.8402B-100000@mail.cdsnet.net>
References: <Pine.NEB.3.95.961126112453.8402B-100000@mail.cdsnet.net>
Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 15:08:27 -0800
From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
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> I would like to use my own facilities to keep my trees sync'd up with a
> master server at my facility, rather than bogging down the net with 3
> parallel updates.
>
> Does somebody have something like this packaged up already?
Not yet, but I have been working on it. I'm putting together a "FreeBSD
mirror kit" in the form of a standard port/package. It's coming along
nicely, though progress has been slowed recently by job demands, other
FreeBSD commitments, Thanksgiving, and out-of-town guests.
But rest assured, it's coming Real Soon Now.
One other thing: Please don't do parallel updates. Schedule them for
different times so that they don't overlap. Thanks.
John
--
John Polstra jdp@polstra.com
John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA
"Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 15:12:57 1996
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To: jehamby@lightside.com
cc: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>, Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>,
hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Dec 1996 11:24:05."
<199612011925.LAA18010@covina.lightside.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 15:12:45 -0800
Message-ID: <19551.849481965@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> to consumers. In other words, I'm more excited about PowerPC then
> I've ever been.
Well, all I can say is that I hope your confidence is rewarded! :-) If
I'm annoyed with the PowerPC folks, it's mostly because I also had
high hopes for this challenge to Intel's hegimony and was disappointed
when that camp failed to live up to even 50% of its own sales hype.
Let's see if they can turn it around. If they do, I'll be more than
happy to change my pessimistic tune.
> I am 100% convinced that Be chose the right CPU with the PowerPC.
> The name of the game is not performance, but price/performance, when
> four commodity CPU's can be used to outperform a single high-end
> Alpha, at a lower total pri ce. Be could have chosen Alpha, but I
> still believe the lack of a second-source i s going to keep volume
> low, and price high.
I'm not sure that this will remain true either, however, and it may be
the ultimate test of the BeOS concept to see if it scales to other
platforms. Most of the ALPHA based machines I've seen show great
promise as a technology which can pick from the best of both worlds -
they can leverage off of cheap and readily available PCI components
while still taking the "high road" in their choices of which of those
components to use, thus avoiding much of the "PC nightmare" of aging
legacy machines which are a bitch to support. As soon as DEC's price
drops on MBs and CPUs hit the street, it's all down to commodity
pricing for the rest, and that's a very interesting thought.
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 15:15:05 1996
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To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de
Subject: Re: cvsup can't find host - sometimes
Newsgroups: polstra.freebsd.hackers
In-Reply-To: <199612010946.KAA13506@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
References: <199612010946.KAA13506@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 15:14:23 -0800
From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
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> I'm running cvsup of ports by cron a couple of times daily - on weekends
> moreoften. Some cvsups run fine, but now and then I have one looking
> like that:
>
> Subject: ports CVSsup on blues Sun Dec 1 09:55:40 MET 1996 finished
>
> Parsing supfile "/home/kuku/ports-supfile"
> Looking up address of freefall.cdrom.com
> Unknown host "freefall.cdrom.com"
>
> (this is from a cvsup -L 2 cvsupfile | mail I send to myself when cvsup
> is finished)
>
> Pinging freefall works fine. I'm just wondering whether this is a
> network problem (load, nameservers unreachable or some such) or
> if it might be a cvsup problem since the lookup is done by the
> program and the name search might be not 'hard enough'.
I wasn't aware of this problem. CVSup just calls gethostbyname() to do
lookup, so it's no different from other applications in this regard.
But I've seen these kinds of bogus "unknown host" errors on quite a few
applications, even on a 56 K link. It may be gethostbyname() that's not
trying hard enough.
Anyway, I will try to fix it in CVSup, by making it retry a few times
before giving up.
Thanks for reporting this.
--
John Polstra jdp@polstra.com
John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA
"Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 15:22:07 1996
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Message-Id: <199612012322.PAA23803@austin.polstra.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Please report CVSup problems!
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 15:22:03 -0800
From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
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Hi People,
Lately it seems I only find out about problems people are having with
CVSup by reading the mailing lists. This is really unreliable for me,
because I often get days behind on reading the lists.
Please, if you have any problems with CVSup, report them to
<cvsup-bugs@polstra.com>. If I don't find out about problems, I can't
help you solve them. Even if you suspect it's just some local problem
with your setup, I'd be happy to at least try to help.
It doesn't bother me in the least if you also want to post such things
to the mailing lists. Just try to remember to send a copy to
<cvsup-bugs@polstra.com> too.
Thanks!
--
John Polstra jdp@polstra.com
John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA
"Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 15:28:16 1996
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Message-Id: <199612012328.PAA23841@austin.polstra.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: CVSup vs. sup's "keep" keyword
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 15:28:12 -0800
From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
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Recently somebody asked in -hackers how to make CVSup do something
similar to sup's "keep" keyword or "-k" option. I'm so behind on that
list that it expired out of my news spool before I had a chance to
reply. I hope whoever asked is listening ...
CVSup does not support sup's "keep" keyword. However, if you have a few
files that you don't want CVSup to touch, there's an easy way to get
what you want. The answer is in the "refuse" files, which are described
near the end of cvsup(1). These allow you to make CVSup completely
ignore certain files. The specified files will not be updated by CVSUp,
nor will they be removed. They're simply ignored.
John
--
John Polstra jdp@polstra.com
John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA
"Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 16:08:09 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612012347.QAA09401@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 16:47:52 -0700 (MST)
Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <897.849411388@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 30, 96 07:36:28 pm
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> > Alpha pros:
>
> I think you've missed one or two, or at least gotten the emphasis in
> slightly the wrong places:
>
> 2) Already supported by Linux and, to a lesser extent, NetBSD (when
> discussing the newer ALPHA/PCI systems) thus making it *easier to
> bootstrap from an existing port*.
>
> 3) Represents the next logical step upwards when you've hit the wall
> with your PP/266 system and you're looking for a beefier server
> that can be built out of widely available parts and accomodate
> more of that most precious of network server resources: Memory.
>
> 4) Their price/performance ratio will be improving significantly within
> the next 30 days. :)
>
> > PowerPC cons:
> >
> 1) Dead architecture. :-)
For PPC, you forgot:
2) Already supported by Linux and, to a lesser extent, NetBSD (when
discussing the newer ALPHA/PCI systems) thus making it *easier to
bootstrap from an existing port*.
3) Supported by a large group of vendors, second only to Intel
processors. Alpha is supported by... well... DEC.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 16:08:38 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 16:08:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
To: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19961201225723.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
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On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, Ollivier Robert wrote:
> According to Wolfram Schneider:
> > Why we use a ">" and not a space or tab? A ">" may destroy
> > latex documents (see UNIX-HATERS handbook page 79-81).
>
> Don't ask me :-)
>
> There are several ways to handle it:
>
> 1. use "quoted-printable" as C-T-E: and =46 in place of "F",
>
> 2. use >From (the Standard Way(TM)),
>
> 3. use Content-Length (only SVR4's mail generates it).
>
> It depends on both your MTA and MUA...
Or use Cyrus for local delivery and IMAP-aware MUA.
Tom
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 16:19:37 1996
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Message-Id: <Mutt.19961202011859.se@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 01:18:59 +0100
From: se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser)
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers),
se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser)
Subject: Re: Racal Interlan ethernet card: any good?
References: <Mutt.19961201145519.se@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> <199612011613.RAA14412@uriah.heep.sax.de>
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.52
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In-Reply-To: <199612011613.RAA14412@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Dec 1, 1996 17:13:32 +0100
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On Dec 1, j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) wrote:
> As Stefan Esser wrote:
> > You need a config line for "lnc0 at isa?", and the PCI card
> > will then be "lnc1" (the later ISA probe could still find an
> > ISA card at the port address specified).
>
> Does the line
>
> device lnc0 at isa? port 0x280 net irq 10 drq 0 vector lncintr
>
> in GENERIC count for this? If so, i'll leave for a business trip
> tomorrow, and i know that this customer is also using HP Vectras which
> come with a builtin Lance-derived PCI ethernet adaptor. While i know
> that an older version of FreeBSD runs on them fine using the PCI
> addresses in the ISA driver (you certainly remember, Stefan), i can
> also stick a plain installation floppy there and see whether it will
> detect the card.
It will work under -current and all 2.2 SNAPs (I added the
code in May), but you have to specify the attach address to
the ISA probe under -stable (and all 2.1 releases including
2.1.6.1).
There was an interface change, that never made it into 2.1,
and I did not bother to work around the old code not dealing
with non-(E)ISA devices. (There is a unit number used as a
parameter, and PCI devices don't have one assigned as far as
the driver is concerned. There is no limiting array of units
under PCI, but if I had introduced one for the ED and LNC
drivers, I could have made the PCI code detect them ...)
Regards, STefan devices. (There is a unit number used as a
parameter, and PCI devices don't have one assigned as far as
the driver is concerned. There is no limiting array of units
under PCI, but if I had introduced one for the ED and LNC
drivers, I could have made the PCI code detect them ...)
Regards, STefan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 16:23:45 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612020003.RAA09460@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
To: jehamby@lightside.com
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:03:21 -0700 (MST)
Cc: mark@quickweb.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chuckr@Glue.umd.edu,
hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199612011925.LAA18010@covina.lightside.com> from "Jake Hamby" at Dec 1, 96 11:24:05 am
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FYI:
Motorolla demonstrated a 1GHz PPC machine running in a lab more than
a year ago to a number of visiting university professors who were in
town for a conference and took a tour of their facility.
1GHz.
This was Motorolla's own stuff. The "Expotential" stuff is running PPC
architecture chips at .5GHz in the lab, right now (as noted).
> >One more thing: wasn't Terry doing something with FreeBSD and PowerPC's ?
>
> I think so, but I don't know if it's still on track.
It's on track. I've been off track from my injury. I have to get
orthopedic furniture to let me sit hunched over for hours over a
PC any more. My chair at home is a government surplus offic chair
and just doesn't cut it for my back any more. 8-(.
I had a number of problems getting doc for the PPCBug ROM stuff for
the boot loader. I still don't have a happy console. I have a very
old VM and a signle user shell (I can't fork yet). I have spent over
$500 on doc which has never arrived. 8-(.
I have to admit that I have not done much on it since my accident...
about the same time, I was switched to an application level project
at work, and haven't been able to combine work with BSD kernel
hacking since then. 8-(.
There is work on the PPC in the NetBSD and OpenBSD camps... and I'm not
talking about the PowerMac hosted stuff that NetBSD recently checked
into their tree, I'm talking real stuff (a Motorolla employee has been
doing the work -- it's not checked in at all as far as I know).
So I would say the PPC is far from dead.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 16:25:31 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612020006.RAA09473@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfram Schneider)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:06:29 -0700 (MST)
Cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612011308.OAA03585@campa.panke.de> from "Wolfram Schneider" at Dec 1, 96 02:08:06 pm
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> Ollivier Robert writes:
> >No, your MTA doesn't add ">" in from of the "From " line in Chuck's message
> >and when Net$crap read it, it assumed it was another message. I received it
> >fine.
>
> Why we use a ">" and not a space or tab? A ">" may destroy
> latex documents (see UNIX-HATERS handbook page 79-81).
It won't if they are in the message body (See RFC822 line folding and
header identification).
The first unfolded line not containing a non-white-space containing
token followed immediately by a colon (':') demarks the line between
text body and text header in an RFC822 message object.
If you aren't seeing this, then your mail reader is bogus.
If you are running into unencapsulated bod that looks like data...
well, your mailbox format is bogus.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 16:28:13 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612020010.RAA09496@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:10:28 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19961201225723.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Dec 1, 96 10:57:23 pm
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> 3. use Content-Length (only SVR4's mail generates it).
This is not supported, because it is not clear if the byte count is
before or after '.' stuffing or before or after headers (ie: to what
data does the count apply).
THere has been some recent discuttion om comp.mail.headers about
killing it altogether...
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 16:29:18 1996
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: jehamby@lightside.com, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Dec 1996 16:47:52 MST."
<199612012347.QAA09401@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 16:28:23 -0800
Message-ID: <5015.849486503@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> For PPC, you forgot:
>
> 2) Already supported by Linux and, to a lesser extent, NetBSD (when
> discussing the newer ALPHA/PCI systems) thus making it *easier to
> bootstrap from an existing port*.
OK, I wasn't aware of this. That's actually good news, since I'm not
as hostile towards PPC as I sound, simply disappointed in its progress
so far. Should that change, it's good to know that the software will
be there.
> 3) Supported by a large group of vendors, second only to Intel
> processors. Alpha is supported by... well... DEC.
True enough, though I'm slightly surprised that they've no second
sources lined up by now. Don't most govn't contracts outright
*require* the presence of a second source before they'll sign a check?
You'd think that DEC would have at least played enough of the
game to get someone like Fujitsu lined up as a second source.
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 16:38:12 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612020019.RAA09537@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:19:25 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, jehamby@lightside.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <5015.849486503@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Dec 1, 96 04:28:23 pm
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> True enough, though I'm slightly surprised that they've no second
> sources lined up by now. Don't most govn't contracts outright
> *require* the presence of a second source before they'll sign a check?
> You'd think that DEC would have at least played enough of the
> game to get someone like Fujitsu lined up as a second source.
You *can* get "sole source" justification for purchasing something
that can only be acquired from a single vendor; it's just a pain.
DEC gets around it by having other people sell Alpha-based machines,
so the machines are not sole-sourced. The governement doesn't
care where the components come from (or Intel would be having the
same problem with any bid which includes their new processors
before they are coned by IBM or whoever).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 16:56:19 1996
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, mark@quickweb.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
chuckr@glue.umd.edu, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 16:47:37 -0800
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On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:03:21 -0700 (MST)
Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org> wrote:
> There is work on the PPC in the NetBSD and OpenBSD camps... and I'm not
> talking about the PowerMac hosted stuff that NetBSD recently checked
> into their tree, I'm talking real stuff (a Motorolla employee has been
> doing the work -- it's not checked in at all as far as I know).
We checked in PowerMac hosted stuff? Err, no... NetBSD/powerpc runs
on any 603 or 604 with OpenFirmware (and ELF boot code; simple matter
of frobbing the boot image for machines that use a different format
for the boot code).
Wolfgang Solfrank did the NetBSD/powerpc port, on a Firepower.
Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 17:50:59 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 20:45:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Tao <taob@io.org>
To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Wiring down disks in 2.2-ALPHA
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[I hope -hackers is the appropriate forum for this, rather than -current}
I'm trying to wire down drives on a news server with 14 disks and
two controllers. I follow the LINT example, but I get a series of
warnings on config:
# config NEWS
Removing old directory ../../compile/NEWS: Done.
config: line 44: ahc connected to non-controller
config: line 45: ahc connected to non-controller
Warning: sd0 is configured at scbus0 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd1 is configured at scbus0 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd2 is configured at scbus0 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd3 is configured at scbus0 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd4 is configured at scbus0 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd5 is configured at scbus0 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd6 is configured at scbus0 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd10 is configured at scbus1 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd11 is configured at scbus1 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd12 is configured at scbus1 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd13 is configured at scbus1 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd14 is configured at scbus1 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd15 is configured at scbus1 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Warning: sd16 is configured at scbus1 which is not fixed at a single adapter.
Kernel build directory is ../../compile/NEWS
The relevant lines in the config file:
38> controller pci0
39> device ahc0
40> device ahc1
41> device de0
42> options PROBE_VERBOSE
43>
44> controller scbus0 at ahc0
45> controller scbus1 at ahc1
46> disk sd0 at scbus0 target 0
47> disk sd1 at scbus0 target 1
48> disk sd2 at scbus0 target 2
49> disk sd3 at scbus0 target 3
50> disk sd4 at scbus0 target 4
51> disk sd5 at scbus0 target 5
52> disk sd6 at scbus0 target 6
53> disk sd10 at scbus1 target 0
54> disk sd11 at scbus1 target 1
55> disk sd12 at scbus1 target 2
56> disk sd13 at scbus1 target 3
57> disk sd14 at scbus1 target 4
58> disk sd15 at scbus1 target 5
59> disk sd16 at scbus1 target 6
However, if I change "device" in lines 39 and 40 to "controller",
config runs without any warnings. This is contrary to the example in
the LINT file. Omitting the device lines or specifying buses and
LUN's just product other combinations of errors. Which is correct?
--
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net)
Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp.
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 18:01:27 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 20:56:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Tao <taob@io.org>
To: Robert Nordier <rnordier@iafrica.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system.
In-Reply-To: <199611261019.MAA02096@eac.iafrica.com>
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On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Robert Nordier wrote:
>
> I have a five-week break coming up in mid-December. The code is
> pretty much all done now, anyway, so I'll aim to surpise you. :-)
That would be most welcome! I'm not sure how much longer I can
stand Linux folk saying things like "Gee, how can you trust FreeBSD's
filesystem if the developers can't even get an MS-DOS filesystem to
work properly?", as they go load up their VFAT/NTFS/HPFS filesystems.
*sigh*
--
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net)
Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp.
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 18:07:27 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 21:02:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Tao <taob@io.org>
To: Robert Nordier <rnordier@iafrica.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system.
In-Reply-To: <199611261049.MAA02308@eac.iafrica.com>
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On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Robert Nordier wrote:
>
> *All* problems occurred with the DOS FS on a 64/63 IDE drive. FIPS
> was not necessarily used. In one case, the corrupted UFS fs was
> actually on another drive.
Twice I've had ufs corruption with 2.2-ALPHA:
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on
/dev/sd0a 98479 15436 75165 17% /
/dev/sd0s2e 73855 56996 10951 84% /usr
/dev/sd0s2f 19487 5549 12380 31% /var
/dev/sd0s2g 297423 226040 47590 83% /usr/local
/dev/sd0s2h 285087 67507 194774 26% /usr/X11R6
/dev/sd0s1 102166 17800 84366 17% /c:
/dev/sd1s1 1052064 604832 447232 57% /d:
Both times I was copying files to /d:, which you will note is a
DOS filesystem over 1G, on a separate drive. I think that's about the
only piece of hard evidence we have in common. My /usr filesystem
(and probably others) was hosed. I've had problems before (prior to
2.2-ALPHA) writing to smaller DOS filesystems on the same drive as UFS
filesystems, but I can't remember the details of those incidents.
On another occasion, ld.so complained it couldn't find needed
libraries, and an 'ls -l' in /usr/lib showed corrupted directory
entries (strange filenames, huge file sizes, etc.) I immediately
rebooted and after the fsck, nothing appeared to be lost.
--
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net)
Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp.
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 18:16:29 1996
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 21:11:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Tao <taob@io.org>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 1600x1200 Modelines
In-Reply-To: <199611182032.NAA25998@rocky.mt.sri.com>
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On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Nate Williams wrote:
>
> Anyone have one? I just got a new Nanao F2-21, and I'd like to try out
> 1600x120 on it, but I don't even have an example one to try out?
Damn, I need to read -hackers more often. ;-) This is what I'm
using with XFree86 3.2, with an ATI Mach64 Graphics Pro Turbo 1600:
Modeline "1600x1200" 180.00 1600 1724 1788 2196 1200 1202 1205 1236
Modeline "1280x1024" 135.00 1280 1312 1456 1712 1024 1027 1030 1064
Modeline "1152x864" 135.00 1152 1156 1284 1728 864 864 876 932
This gives you 1600x1200 @ 66Hz (limited by my Princeton Ultra
17+'s horizontal bandwidth), 1280x1024 @ 74Hz and 1152x864 @ 83Hz.
--
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net)
Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp.
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 18:30:47 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:35:01 +1100 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: ipfilter vs ipfw
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Remember the ipfw vs ipfilter discussion of a couple of months ago?
That was when Jordan suggested that ipfilter should be the default
filtering package. Well I just noticed that at
http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~avalon/ OpenBSD has adopted ipfilter as an
integral part of the OS release.
Just food for thought.
Danny
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 18:41:30 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612020240.NAA02592@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-Reply-To: <199612011318.AAA01694@suburbia.net> from Julian Assange at "Dec 2, 96 00:18:08 am"
To: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:10:20 +1030 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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Julian Assange stands accused of saying:
> >
> > Argh! Aren't there _any_ decent, simple, text windowing libraries out
> > there?
> >
> > I've looked at :
> > - libdialog (of sysinstall fame)
> > - 'SAA' (from an obscure german FTP site)
> > - D-Flat
>
> libslang. in ports.
Uhh, it does? I've just looked at it, and nowhere is there anything
that looks even remotely like a windowing library.
(And the port is out-of-date, btw. 8)
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 18:44:08 1996
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To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: ipfilter vs ipfw
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 18:36:48 -0800
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:35:01 +1100 (EST)
"Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au> wrote:
> Remember the ipfw vs ipfilter discussion of a couple of months ago?
> That was when Jordan suggested that ipfilter should be the default
> filtering package. Well I just noticed that at
> http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~avalon/ OpenBSD has adopted ipfilter as an
> integral part of the OS release.
NetBSD is about to fully integrate ipfilter, as well, now that
we have a sufficiently generic mechanism for hooking in packet
filters. Contact Matthew Green <mrg@netbsd.org> for details.
Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 18:55:37 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612020255.NAA02673@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-Reply-To: <15861.849448832@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 1, 96 06:00:32 am"
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:25:05 +1030 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying:
>
> Right. And pretty much every other one you'll find, like cdk or the
> stuff in ncurses, is either the wrong approach entirely or extremely
> difficult to bring into another encapsulation paradigm like TCL. Most
ctk would be OK except for the fact that it appears to be an orphan, and
the user is likely to try to program it like it was Tk. By virtue of
being designed for Tcl, it integrates well.
> C library designers think that it's OK to have 14 different structure
> types being passed around, which makes it a real nightmare for the
> encapsulator.
Even that's not so bad; it's as much just that the usual model is
"don't call us, we'll call you", and usually without the internal
structure necessary to handle timed callbacks.
> Ultimately, I think what we're going to have to do is design it from
> scratch. It might even be kind of fun, but I'm still wrestling with
> some of the design concepts and have come up with multiple approaches
> to the problem, all of which have various pros and cons going for
> them.
Then please start talking at me about it 8) I have the "wrap system
libraries for Tcl" stuff prettyuch solved with SWIG, and I want to
prototype that modular monster we were talking about before with a
small module to frontend for libdisk.
A Tk interface would be a trivial exercise, but I want to have a
character-only interface as well.
> One approach would be to take a very high level slice at the problem
> and write a series of very generic "presentation objects" (or
> "interactors" or whatever the hell you want to call them). They would
This sniffs a lot like a widget heirachy to me 8) You're just saying
that the widget types are a little less concrete than the current
norm "list of things to select from" rather than "listbox with scrollbar
and returning item clicked on". The decoupling is a nice idea, but
short of lots of smart code to perform layout work, you end up with
a result that looks a lot like most automatically-created UI's - junk.
> All that really buys you, however, is the ability to shuffle off all
> your icky curses or X specific code into a "display class" object, and
> you still need to extend every one of your object classes for each new
> object you add (unless that object has no meaning for that display
> class, in which case I guess its presence would just be a no-op) which
> is kind of a downside.
Having looked fairly carefully at the whole thing, I am personally of
the opinion that trying to structure a frontend such that the same
code works with both an 80x25 and a GUI interface is a mistake.
I would love to be wrong on this, and you can make it work by
crippling the GUI interface (or at least limiting its scope), but
I strongly feel that we should not do this.
Naturally, this means that we end up with duplicated functionality
and all the attendant headaches, but I think that these are the
lesser evil by far.
> side of this with my eyes closed, but not the curses stuff. Every
> time I think I have its simple-*sounding* model all figured out,
> refresh() does things to the screen which leave me mystified.
Great. Just what I want to hear 8(
> Jordan
(sorry if this is digressing a bit much for people)
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 19:00:05 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:59:56 +0900 (JST)
From: Naoki Hamada <nao@sbl.cl.nec.co.jp>
Message-Id: <199612020259.LAA19525@sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: boot from ATAPI CDROM
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
X-Loop: FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk
Though booting from ATAPI CDROM is possible, it is not listed in the
table in sys/i386/i386/autoconf.c. With the following patch, my
FreeBSD box does boot from wcd0. This change is desired to be in
2.2-RELEASE, isn't it?
-nao
--- autoconf.c- Wed Jul 31 05:30:49 1996
+++ autoconf.c Mon Dec 2 11:11:05 1996
@@ -121,6 +121,7 @@
{ "mcd", 7 },
{ "scd", 16 },
{ "matcd", 17 },
+ { "wcd", 19 },
{ 0, 0}
};
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 20:58:21 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:31:28 +0900 (JST)
From: Naoki Hamada <nao@sbl.cl.nec.co.jp>
Message-Id: <199612020431.NAA20284@sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Etherlink 16 and Etherlink III ISA
Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
X-Loop: FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk
Probing Etherlink 16 (3C507, if_ie) and Etherlink III ISA (3C509,
if_ep) failes when there is some device at the I/O port 0x100. This is
because the drivers can detect the board only through the port 0x100,
though all the port 0x1x0 (0 =< x =< 0xf) can be an 'ID port'.
So here is a patch, which actually solved the problem.
-nao
diff -ur sys-2.2-ALPHA/i386/isa/elink.c sys/i386/isa/elink.c
--- sys-2.2-ALPHA/i386/isa/elink.c Tue May 30 17:01:36 1995
+++ sys/i386/isa/elink.c Mon Dec 2 13:05:26 1996
@@ -40,6 +40,30 @@
#include <i386/isa/elink.h>
+static u_int elink_id_port;
+
+/*
+ * Set a valid id port address to 'elink_id_port' and return it.
+ * If none, return 0.
+ */
+u_int
+elink_init()
+{
+ u_int i;
+ for (i = 0x100; i < 0x200; i += 0x10) {
+ outb(0, i);
+ outb(0xff, i);
+ if (inb(i) == 0xff) {
+ break; /* no device present */
+ }
+ }
+ if (i == 0x200) {
+ return (0);
+ }
+ elink_id_port = i;
+ return (i);
+}
+
/*
* Issue a `global reset' to all cards. We have to be careful to do this only
* once during autoconfig, to prevent resetting boards that have already been
@@ -52,7 +76,7 @@
if (x == 0) {
x = 1;
- outb(ELINK_ID_PORT, ELINK_RESET);
+ outb(elink_id_port, ELINK_RESET);
}
}
@@ -69,7 +93,7 @@
c = 0xff;
for (i = 255; i; i--) {
- outb(ELINK_ID_PORT, c);
+ outb(elink_id_port, c);
if (c & 0x80) {
c <<= 1;
c ^= p;
diff -ur sys-2.2-ALPHA/i386/isa/elink.h sys/i386/isa/elink.h
--- sys-2.2-ALPHA/i386/isa/elink.h Thu Aug 25 07:32:42 1994
+++ sys/i386/isa/elink.h Mon Dec 2 13:02:24 1996
@@ -29,11 +29,11 @@
* $Id: elink.h,v 1.1 1994/08/24 22:32:42 ats Exp $
*/
-#define ELINK_ID_PORT 0x100
#define ELINK_RESET 0xc0
#define ELINK_507_POLY 0xe7
#define ELINK_509_POLY 0xcf
+u_int elink_init __P((void));
void elink_reset __P((void));
void elink_idseq __P((u_char p));
diff -ur sys-2.2-ALPHA/i386/isa/if_ep.c sys/i386/isa/if_ep.c
--- sys-2.2-ALPHA/i386/isa/if_ep.c Sat Sep 7 08:07:33 1996
+++ sys/i386/isa/if_ep.c Mon Dec 2 13:03:40 1996
@@ -332,13 +332,20 @@
ep_look_for_board_at(is)
struct isa_device *is;
{
- int data, i, j, id_port = ELINK_ID_PORT;
+ int data, i, j, io_base;
+ u_int id_port;
int count = 0;
if (ep_current_tag == (EP_LAST_TAG + 1)) {
/* Come here just one time */
ep_current_tag--;
+
+ id_port = elink_init();
+ if (id_port == 0) {
+ printf("warning: no id port available for ep!\n");
+ return (0);
+ }
/* Look for the ISA boards. Init and leave them actived */
outb(id_port, 0);
diff -ur sys-2.2-ALPHA/i386/isa/if_ie.c sys/i386/isa/if_ie.c
--- sys-2.2-ALPHA/i386/isa/if_ie.c Sat Sep 7 08:07:36 1996
+++ sys/i386/isa/if_ie.c Mon Dec 2 13:02:25 1996
@@ -397,6 +397,7 @@
struct ie_softc *sc = &ie_softc[dvp->id_unit];
u_char c;
int i;
+ u_int id_port;
u_char signature[] = "*3COM*";
int unit = dvp->id_unit;
@@ -409,11 +410,16 @@
sc->ie_chan_attn = el_chan_attn;
/* Reset and put card in CONFIG state without changing address. */
+ id_port = elink_init();
+ if (id_port == 0) {
+ printf("ie%d: no id port available!\n", unit);
+ return 0;
+ }
elink_reset();
- outb(ELINK_ID_PORT, 0x00);
+ outb(id_port, 0x00);
elink_idseq(ELINK_507_POLY);
elink_idseq(ELINK_507_POLY);
- outb(ELINK_ID_PORT, 0xff);
+ outb(id_port, 0xff);
c = inb(PORT + IE507_MADDR);
if(c & 0x20) {
@@ -424,9 +430,9 @@
}
/* go to RUN state */
- outb(ELINK_ID_PORT, 0x00);
+ outb(id_port, 0x00);
elink_idseq(ELINK_507_POLY);
- outb(ELINK_ID_PORT, 0x00);
+ outb(id_port, 0x00);
outb(PORT + IE507_CTRL, EL_CTRL_NRST);
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 20:58:36 1996
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Message-ID: <Mutt.19961202150224.davidn@sdev>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:02:24 +1100
From: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Logging ttys off
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I'm looking for a "foolproof" way of logging out lines that
are in use. The only real information available at the time I
need to do this is the user's utmp entry.
The problems I'm having are:
- I don't have the process id of the process group leader
(unlike SYSV, unforuntately BSD's utmp doesn't provide this)
- the serial port may not be accessible, even by root, if
the port is in ppp/slip mode.
- even if the serial port can be opened, setting the input/
output speeds to B0 does not reliably kill the line
(is this an error? should it?). It seems to work on
serial lines without clocal set, but not otherwise - I
would have expected a hangup on the port regardless (seems
to work reliably in other UNIXes I've worked with in the
past).
So, I'm back to looking for the pid of the process group
leader so I can kill it with SIGTERM/SIGKILL.
One option that occurs to me is to look at /proc (is the proc
filesystem more or less mandatory now?), and attempting to
find processes owned by the user, and building a tree of
processes to find out which ones were initiated from a
particular login (with the advantage of being able to
optionally sweep out background processes that would not
otherwise die with the process leader). Since I haven't yet
looked at this in depth, I'm not even sure if this is a viable
solution. I haven't even considered digging this info out of
/dev/kmem yet, and since that style of solution seems to be
depreciated in any case, that's one path I'd definitely prefer
to avoid, especially if this is likely to lead to kernel
version dependancies (like ps).
Since I'm sure to be reinventing the wheel in doing this, has
anyone else ever needed to do something similar? And *please*
don't suggest spawning ps and examining its output. :-) Any
other suggestions welcome. I did look at source for a couple
of idle logout daemons, but both of them used the "set port
speed to 0" method, but as I said, this doesn't work reliably
enough, nor can I restrict what I'm working on to use with
dialup lines only.
Regards,
David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia
Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet
davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 20:59:50 1996
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X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
X-Face: 3}heU+2?b->-GSF-G4T4>jEB9~FR(V9lo&o>kAy=Pj&;oVOc<|pr%I/VSG"ZD32J>5gGC0N
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:15:57 +1000
From: Stephen Hocking <sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au>
Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
X-Loop: FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk
A Linux zealot has the following in his sig - what's our current ability?
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
Stephen
--
The views expressed above are not those of the Worker's Compensation Board of
Queensland, Australia.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 21:00:44 1996
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange), hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:10:20 +1030."
<199612020240.NAA02592@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 19:56:40 -0800
Message-ID: <24610.849499000@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
X-Loop: FreeBSD.org
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> > libslang. in ports.
>
> Uhh, it does? I've just looked at it, and nowhere is there anything
> that looks even remotely like a windowing library.
Yeah, I was going to comment on this too. I think Julian is sorely
confused - slang is an extention language like TCL, not a gui
builder's aid like Tk. :-)
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 21:14:20 1996
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To: Stephen Hocking <sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 21:06:51 -0800
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On Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:15:57 +1000
Stephen Hocking <sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au> wrote:
> A Linux zealot has the following in his sig - what's our current ability?
You should read the flame war that ensued on the freebsd and netbsd
USENET groups...
(Erm, note that there's no mention about how many connections were open,
or how active the machine was :-)
> ---------------------------------------------////
> Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
> 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
> ethernet. Beat that! ////
> -----------------------------------------////__________ o
> David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 21:19:25 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:24:06 +1100 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Naoki Hamada <nao@sbl.cl.nec.co.jp>
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: boot from ATAPI CDROM
In-Reply-To: <199612020259.LAA19525@sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Naoki Hamada wrote:
> Though booting from ATAPI CDROM is possible, it is not listed in the
> table in sys/i386/i386/autoconf.c. With the following patch, my
> FreeBSD box does boot from wcd0. This change is desired to be in
> 2.2-RELEASE, isn't it?
Looks good. Now, what is the process for contructing a customised boot CD?
Danny
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 21:32:20 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 00:32:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
Message-Id: <199612020532.AAA02413@crh.cl.msu.edu>
To: taob@io.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 1600x1200 Modelines
Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hackers
References: <57tf2m$gkn@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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In lists.freebsd.hackers you write:
>On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Nate Williams wrote:
>>
>> Anyone have one? I just got a new Nanao F2-21, and I'd like to try out
>> 1600x120 on it, but I don't even have an example one to try out?
> Damn, I need to read -hackers more often. ;-) This is what I'm
>using with XFree86 3.2, with an ATI Mach64 Graphics Pro Turbo 1600:
>Modeline "1600x1200" 180.00 1600 1724 1788 2196 1200 1202 1205 1236
>Modeline "1280x1024" 135.00 1280 1312 1456 1712 1024 1027 1030 1064
>Modeline "1152x864" 135.00 1152 1156 1284 1728 864 864 876 932
> This gives you 1600x1200 @ 66Hz (limited by my Princeton Ultra
>17+'s horizontal bandwidth), 1280x1024 @ 74Hz and 1152x864 @ 83Hz.
I use
ModeLine "1600x1200" 188 1600 1696 1984 2152 1200 1200 1204 1256
for 1600x1200@70hz for a NEC XP21
--
Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu
http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich
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From: Karl Denninger <karl@Mcs.Net>
Message-Id: <199612020532.XAA16345@Mercury.mcs.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au (Stephen Hocking)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 23:32:08 -0600 (CST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199612020315.DAA13781@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> from "Stephen Hocking" at Dec 2, 96 01:15:57 pm
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>
> A Linux zealot has the following in his sig - what's our current ability?
>
> ---------------------------------------------////
> Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
> 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
> ethernet. Beat that! ////
> -----------------------------------------////__________ o
> David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
>
>
>
> Stephen
My Pentium Pro systems will do in excess of 160Mbps (that's about 15MB/sec)
through the loopback interface.
I'll have to whale on a few real connected machines and let you know. I
*AM* able to run at at native DLT media speeds during backups to those
drives (!), which is hellishly fast.
--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity
http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
| 33 Analog Prefixes, 13 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo
Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/
Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 21:44:05 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:43:55 +0900 (JST)
From: Naoki Hamada <nao@sbl.cl.nec.co.jp>
Message-Id: <199612020543.OAA21084@sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.91.961202162303.1605i-100000@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: danny@panda.hilink.com.au
CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-reply-to: "Daniel O'Callaghan"'s message of "Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:24:06 +1100 (EST)"
<Pine.BSF.3.91.961202162303.1605i-100000@panda.hilink.com.au>
Subject: Re: boot from ATAPI CDROM
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Danny wrote:
>Looks good. Now, what is the process for contructing a customised boot CD?
See the second CD, which is labelled "live filesystem", from Walnut Creek.
-nao
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 21:46:38 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
Message-Id: <199612020545.QAA15515@suburbia.net>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-Reply-To: <24610.849499000@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 1, 96 07:56:40 pm"
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:45:40 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> > > libslang. in ports.
> >
> > Uhh, it does? I've just looked at it, and nowhere is there anything
> > that looks even remotely like a windowing library.
>
> Yeah, I was going to comment on this too. I think Julian is sorely
> confused - slang is an extention language like TCL, not a gui
> builder's aid like Tk. :-)
S-Lang is a C programmer's library that includes routines for the rapid
development of sophisticated, user friendly, multi-platform applications.
The S-Lang library includes the following:
Low level tty input routines for reading single characters at a time.
Keymap routines for defining keys and manipulating multiple keymaps.
High level screen management routines for manipulating both
monochrome and color terminals. These routines are very
efficient.
Low level terminal-independent routines for manipulating the display
of a terminal.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Routines for reading single line input with line editing and recall
capabilities.
Searching functions: both ordinary searches and regular expression
searches.
An embedded stack-based language interpreter with a C-like syntax.
A malloc debugging package
Agree it isn't exactly tcl/tk but it is the closest I've seen for
character based displays. This is the right answer, but now you
have me confused as to whether I have the right question ;)
-Julian A.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:08:02 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:01:29 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199612020601.RAA13338@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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> - even if the serial port can be opened, setting the input/
> output speeds to B0 does not reliably kill the line
> (is this an error? should it?). It seems to work on
> serial lines without clocal set, but not otherwise - I
> would have expected a hangup on the port regardless (seems
> to work reliably in other UNIXes I've worked with in the
> past).
POSIX says that setting the speed to B0 causes the modem control
lines to be no longer asserted. "Normally, this will disconnect
the line". However, if CLOCAL is set, then "a connection does
not depend on the state of the modem control lines". Setting the
speed to B0 has no effect on the connect in this abnornal case.
FreeBSD lets you prevent CLOCAL from being set. If this is acceptable,
then you don't have to worry about hangups being ignored.
Bruce
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:12:27 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612020612.BAA04128@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system.
To: taob@io.org (Brian Tao)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 01:11:47 -0500 (EST)
Cc: rnordier@iafrica.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961201205627.4096C-100000@nap.io.org> from "Brian Tao" at Dec 1, 96 09:02:04 pm
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> On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Robert Nordier wrote:
> >
> > *All* problems occurred with the DOS FS on a 64/63 IDE drive. FIPS
> > was not necessarily used. In one case, the corrupted UFS fs was
> > actually on another drive.
>
> Twice I've had ufs corruption with 2.2-ALPHA:
>
We have had at least one major bug in the vfs_bio code, that
we weren't checking for the size of the block allocated by
the filesystem. I had mistakenly assumed that MSDOSFS
was mistakenly allocating 512 byte block buffers. MSDOSFS
was doing the "right" thing all along allocating up to
32K or 64K buffers -- and that was breaking vfs_bio. Buffers
were overrunning their allocated kva space of 16K.
Bruce and/or Robert found this problem and brought it to
my attention. The obvious solution of increasing the kva
space in the buffer cache (per buffer) to 64K was not
workable, but I rewrote part of the buffer allocation
code to allow for more dynamic sizing of the buffer kva
space (of course, managing the fragmentation issues, etc.)
So, at least on MSDOSFS problem has been fixed, and this
could explain at least one of the reasons for the
filesystem corruptions associated with the usage of
MSDOSFS. The corruptions would have happened whether
or not one would write to the MSDOS filesystem.
There are likely more bugs to be fixed, but at least
this one should be gone now (in -current.)
John
dyson@freebsd.org
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:13:27 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
Message-Id: <199612020613.RAA16253@suburbia.net>
Subject: multiple swap paritions
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:13:00 +1100 (EST)
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root@evil:~# swapinfo
Device 512-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type
/dev/wd0s1b 124800 22496 102176 18% Interleaved
/dev/wd2s1b 65536 22280 43128 34% Interleaved
/dev/wd3s1b 65536 22304 43104 34% Interleaved
/dev/sd0s1b 65536 21952 43456 34% Interleaved
Total 320896 89032 231864 28%
Notice that capacity is spread equally over all swap-paritions
despite differences in raw speed and drive-load (which you can't
see, but trust me, there is). Can the swap-block locater be made
adaptive, or does it rely on a uniform (and static) m/n distribution?
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:20:07 1996
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To: Stephen Hocking <sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:15:57 +1000."
<199612020315.DAA13781@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 22:19:37 -0800
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>A Linux zealot has the following in his sig - what's our current ability?
>
>---------------------------------------------////
>Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
>199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
>ethernet. Beat that! ////
Tests over fast ethernet are subjective without knowing which ethernet
cards were involved, whether they are connected to a switch and have
negotiated a full duplex connection, and whether the ethernet is completely
idle. Of course, it's also very necessary to know the speed and type of
the machines involved.
However, to the loopback interface (both the client and server running
on the same machine), I get:
[corbin:bsd] lat_tcp localhost
$Id: lat_tcp.c,v 1.1 1994/11/18 08:49:48 lm Exp $
TCP latency using localhost: 85 microseconds
[corbin:bsd] bw_tcp localhost
$Id: bw_tcp.c,v 1.1 1994/11/18 08:49:48 lm Exp $
Socket bandwidth using localhost: 54.46 MB/sec
...on a 240MHz Pentium Pro. In my current arrangement here I'm only able to
do half duplex on my 100Mbps network and the collisions that are caused by
the TCP acks can have a significant effect on the numbers. However, if I
do a unidirectional test using UDP I get:
[corbin:dg] ttcp -p9 -n8192 -u -t core
...
ttcp-t: 67108864 bytes in 5.61 real seconds = 11682.55 KB/sec +++
I'd say "beat that", except that I know that you can't since that is the
theoretical maximum for fast ethernet. The ethernet card in this case is a
Intel Pro/100B. For TCP on this net, the numbers are less interesting:
[corbin:dg] ttcp -p9 -n8192 -t implode
ttcp-t: buflen=8192, nbuf=8192, align=16384/+0, port=9 tcp -> implode
ttcp-t: socket
ttcp-t: nopush
ttcp-t: connect
ttcp-t: 67108864 bytes in 6.40 real seconds = 10239.26 KB/sec +++
ttcp-t: 8192 I/O calls, msec/call = 0.80, calls/sec = 1279.91
ttcp-t: 0.0user 1.3sys 0:06real 20% 133i+282d 86maxrss 0+2pf 7570+9csw
The result is highly dependant on when the receiving machine acks. I
actually get _lower_ numbers when talking to a much faster machine (same
type of ethernet card in all cases: Pro/100B):
[corbin:dg] ttcp -p9 -n8192 -t core
ttcp-t: buflen=8192, nbuf=8192, align=16384/+0, port=9 tcp -> core
ttcp-t: socket
ttcp-t: nopush
ttcp-t: connect
ttcp-t: 67108864 bytes in 7.27 real seconds = 9008.72 KB/sec +++
ttcp-t: 8192 I/O calls, msec/call = 0.91, calls/sec = 1126.09
ttcp-t: 0.0user 1.4sys 0:07real 20% 136i+289d 268maxrss 0+2pf 7671+10csw
"implode" is a 90MHz Pentium; "core" is a 133MHz Pentium; "corbin" is a
240MHz PPro.
The lower numbers can be understood when looking at the number of
collisions - they are much higher when talking to "core" compared to
"implode". This wouldn't be an issue and we'd be seeing about 1130MB/s
numbers if this was full duplex. The "11.26 MB/s" number quoted above
can't be exceeded (by much) since that is about the theoretical maximum
for full duplex ethernet (assuming 1460 byte data packets). Unfortunately,
FreeBSD doesn't current have any drivers that work in full duplex mode.
I hope to change this at some point. :-)
-DG
David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:21:18 1996
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 01:21:04 -0500
To: Stephen Hocking <sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au>
From: "Kevin P. Neal" <kpneal@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 01:15 PM 12/2/96 +1000, Stephen Hocking wrote:
>A Linux zealot has the following in his sig - what's our current ability?
>
>---------------------------------------------////
>Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
>199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
>ethernet. Beat that! ////
>-----------------------------------------////__________ o
>David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
*sigh*.
Hope this doesn't get out onto the net again.
--
XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore, Comp. Sci. - kpneal@pobox.com
XCOMM http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ - kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu
XCOMM "Comments in code are kinda useless, anyway."
XCOMM -- Brian Rumple, TA for my OS class, NCSU. November 6,1996
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:23:32 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612020604.HAA21020@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: Logging ttys off
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 07:04:38 +0100 (MET)
Cc: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19961202150224.davidn@sdev> from David Nugent at "Dec 2, 96 03:02:24 pm"
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As David Nugent wrote:
> I'm looking for a "foolproof" way of logging out lines that
> are in use. The only real information available at the time I
> need to do this is the user's utmp entry.
While not being a `nice' way wrt. to signalling user processes,
revoke(2) is perhaps the _safest_ way. So you should perhaps fall
back to this if you fail to SIGHUP the processes.
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:24:42 1996
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To: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: multiple swap paritions
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:13:00 +1100."
<199612020613.RAA16253@suburbia.net>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 22:24:00 -0800
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>root@evil:~# swapinfo
>Device 512-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type
>/dev/wd0s1b 124800 22496 102176 18% Interleaved
>/dev/wd2s1b 65536 22280 43128 34% Interleaved
>/dev/wd3s1b 65536 22304 43104 34% Interleaved
>/dev/sd0s1b 65536 21952 43456 34% Interleaved
>Total 320896 89032 231864 28%
>
>Notice that capacity is spread equally over all swap-paritions
>despite differences in raw speed and drive-load (which you can't
>see, but trust me, there is). Can the swap-block locater be made
>adaptive, or does it rely on a uniform (and static) m/n distribution?
It's a function of the way that the interleaved allocation works. So the
answer is no, it does not change as a function of the drive-load.
-DG
David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:25:34 1996
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From: Robert Nordier <rnordier@iafrica.com>
Message-Id: <199612020622.IAA02020@eac.iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961201205627.4096C-100000@nap.io.org> from Brian Tao at "Dec 1, 96 09:02:04 pm"
To: taob@io.org (Brian Tao)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:22:16 +0200 (SAT)
Cc: rnordier@iafrica.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
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Brian Tao wrote:
> Twice I've had ufs corruption with 2.2-ALPHA:
>
> Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on
> /dev/sd0a 98479 15436 75165 17% /
> /dev/sd0s2e 73855 56996 10951 84% /usr
> /dev/sd0s2f 19487 5549 12380 31% /var
> /dev/sd0s2g 297423 226040 47590 83% /usr/local
> /dev/sd0s2h 285087 67507 194774 26% /usr/X11R6
> /dev/sd0s1 102166 17800 84366 17% /c:
> /dev/sd1s1 1052064 604832 447232 57% /d:
>
> Both times I was copying files to /d:, which you will note is a
> DOS filesystem over 1G, on a separate drive. I think that's about the
> only piece of hard evidence we have in common. My /usr filesystem
> (and probably others) was hosed. I've had problems before (prior to
> 2.2-ALPHA) writing to smaller DOS filesystems on the same drive as UFS
> filesystems, but I can't remember the details of those incidents.
>
> On another occasion, ld.so complained it couldn't find needed
> libraries, and an 'ls -l' in /usr/lib showed corrupted directory
> entries (strange filenames, huge file sizes, etc.) I immediately
> rebooted and after the fsck, nothing appeared to be lost.
Thanks for the info.
I believe that John Dyson's vfs changes over this past weekend
should put an end to the ufs corruption problem. I'm not sure
if or when they, or some other fix, are going into 2.2, though.
--
Robert Nordier
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:29:50 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
Message-Id: <199612020628.RAA16489@suburbia.net>
Subject: Re: Logging ttys off
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19961202165401.davidn@sdev> from David Nugent at "Dec 2, 96 04:54:01 pm"
To: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:28:34 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> Julian Assange writes:
> > > I'm looking for a "foolproof" way of logging out lines that
> > > are in use. The only real information available at the time I
> > > need to do this is the user's utmp entry.
> >
> > What is your objective? there may be another solution.
>
> Time accounting. If session limits run out, or the user runs out
> of time, or the session runs into a time period in which logins
> on specific ttys are not allowed, then I need to log the user
> off and cleanup any background processes they may have started
> during the session.
You could look at a program I wrote a while called "hidleho" that
does just this (among other things), although it is a little dated
now. (ftp://ftp.suburbia.net/pub/proff/original/chalace+hidleho).
Also Dial-Up_Utils on sunsite in /pub/linux somewhere, similar and
actively maintained.
#/etc/hidleho.cnf is the configuration file for hildeho.
#
# the uid variable defines what user hidleho should run as for its
# maintenance functions. you must ensure that all of
# hidleho's config files and directories are owned by uid
Uid hidleho
#
# TtyUid varible defines what user owns the vacant ttys.
TtyUid root
#
# UserBase variable defines the directory to hold the per-user config
# directories and sub-files.
UserBase /usr/hidleho
#
# GroupBase variable defines the directory to hold the group-wide config
# directories and sub-files.
GroupBase /usr/hidleho
# DeniedMsg File printed to tty when a user is denied access ('-' flag)
DeniedMsg /etc/hidleho.denied
# BorrowGrace Grace for logoff when lines are full.
BorrowGrace 2
#
# the def_term variable defines what the enviromental variable TERM should
# be set to if hildeho is unable to obtain the terminal type
# from the remote connection, /etc/gettydefs or ~/.termtype.
Term vt100
#
#the ttys variable defines the ttys to monitor if the users "B" flag
# is set. Also effects the "C" flag.
ttys ttyS0 ttyS1 ttyS2 ttyS3 ttyS4
#
#the weights variable defines the multiplicative weight applied to
# the effective calculated call time for the ttys specified
# by ttys:
weights 1 1 1 1 1
#the warn_t variable defines the t- times at which the user will be warned
# of approching total timeout (up to 10 parameters)
warn_t 10 3 2 1
#the warn_i variable defines the t- times at which the user will be warned
# of approching idle timeout (up to 10 parameters)
warn_i 3 2 1
#
# Description of general parameters:
#
# Name = user name, or the pseudo-name "default:", or a
# /etc/group name terminated with a trailing "+".
# Total = total number of minutes the user is allowed on-line.
# InIdle = how long for idle timeout, if no user input
# OutIdle = how long for idle timeout, if no system output
# TimeLim = the amount of time granted per time segmant
# TimePer = the size (in time) of a time period/segmant
# Exclude = minutes to exclude the user for on logout (B & C)
# Flags = lower case alphabetical = FALSE, upper case = TRUE
# I = send user Information at login time
# i = do not "
# W = send disconnection warnings to terminal
# w = do not "
# K = kill all users tasks system wide
# k = kill all users tasks tty wide
# A = ask user for terminal type
# a = do not "
# B = allow user to exist on borrowed time
# b = do not "
# C = total timeout only on a Configured ttys:
# c = total timeout on all ttys
# E = exclusive idle on. if (idle_in || idle_out) idle()
# e = " off. if (idle_in && idle_out) idle()
# T = timer on.
# t = timer off, just exec shell after auth/term/info.
# N = permit negative time left
# n = do not permit negative time left (timeleft = 0 if negative)
# U = unlimited negative time
# u = negative time limited to -TimeLim
# - = prevent user/group from loging in.
# + = allow user/group to login.
#
# Shell = filename to execute
# n.b an "*" specified in any but the Name parameter field acts as a place
# holder.
#Name Total InIdle OutIdle TimeLim TimePer Exclude Flags Shell
#
default: 30 10 10 2h 1d 0 uNeTIWKABC+ /bin/tcsh
unpaid+ 30 10 10 4h 28d 10 KEc /usr/local/bin/mshell
donate+ 45 15 15 2h 1d 5 * /bin/tcsh
sponsor+ 45 20 15 3h 1d 4 * /bin/tcsh
oldsponsor+ 90 20 15 3h 1d 4 * /bin/tcsh
staff+ 52w 2h 2h 0 0 0 eTiWkaBC+ /bin/tcsh
proff * * * * * * AI /bin/tcsh
register 55 8 8 0 0 0 EkabcA /usr/local/lbin/guest_login
guest 55 8 8 0 0 0 EkabcA /usr/local/lbin/guest_login
chaltest 4 * * 0 0 0 EkabcAi /home/chaltest/login
xfer 2h * * 0 0 0 eIkAbc /usr/local/lbin/wares
motronic 130 * * 5h 1d * * *
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:54:59 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612020629.HAA21666@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: Wiring down disks in 2.2-ALPHA
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 07:29:31 +0100 (MET)
Cc: taob@io.org (Brian Tao)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961201204105.4096A-100000@nap.io.org> from Brian Tao at "Dec 1, 96 08:45:40 pm"
X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669
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As Brian Tao wrote:
> Removing old directory ../../compile/NEWS: Done.
> config: line 44: ahc connected to non-controller
> config: line 45: ahc connected to non-controller
> 38> controller pci0
> 39> device ahc0
> 40> device ahc1
ahc is a controller, so declare it as being one.
> However, if I change "device" in lines 39 and 40 to "controller",
> config runs without any warnings. This is contrary to the example in
> the LINT file.
My LINT file also has them as `controller'.
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 22:57:19 1996
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Message-ID: <32A27CB2.59E2B600@whistle.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 22:52:34 -0800
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
Organization: Whistle Communications
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To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de
CC: nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
References: <11648.849446420@waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu> <9612011710.AA00991@wavehh.hanse.de>
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Martin Cracauer wrote:
>
>
> >can the linux clone syscall be emulated with rfork?
MOSTLY
> The Linux clone() syscall will also support options to share the PID
> and the signal mask.
yes.. this requires some work that was done by another developer
(I have it here somewhere) who implimented threads using fork
but with special process linkages to allow thread processes
to be grouped together.
>
> The additonal options are needed to produce a Posix-compatible thread
> interface that has no userlevel threads anymore. Linus claims Linux
> syscalls are fast enough to be acceptable even in applications with
> heavy use of locking (and therefore resheduling by the kernel).
He might be correct.
sharing memory spaces makes for a much smaller contect switch.
>
> These options don't work for now, so it's a good bet that inferno uses
> only shared memory options. They probably don't need Posix
> compatiblity for their Threads.
In that regard, our rfork is not quite finished either
It requires a different memory sharing method to be grafted
into it..
namely use of the vm-space reference counts instead of
actually duplicating the vm space with shared objects..
Once teh kernel stacks are not in the user space
(they might already be gone by now I haven't looked.. SMP needs it too
I think) then the way is clear for this...
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 23:05:17 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:46:17 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199612020646.RAA14473@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: dg@Root.COM, proff@suburbia.net
Subject: Re: cyclades PCI driver doesn't detect carrier drop
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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> Are you sure that this isn't operator error? You do have hupcl & -clocal
>for your ports, right? Note that the device names changed and thus your
>/etc/rc.serial may be out of date...or perhaps you don't even have entries
>in there to set the initial state?
It seems to be a hardware problem.
Bruce
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 23:13:35 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
Message-Id: <199612020712.SAA17067@suburbia.net>
Subject: Re: cyclades PCI driver doesn't detect carrier drop
In-Reply-To: <199612020646.RAA14473@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Dec 2, 96 05:46:17 pm"
To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:12:41 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> > Are you sure that this isn't operator error? You do have hupcl & -clocal
> >for your ports, right? Note that the device names changed and thus your
> >/etc/rc.serial may be out of date...or perhaps you don't even have entries
> >in there to set the initial state?
>
> It seems to be a hardware problem.
>
> Bruce
Hardware problem as in the driver not understand the hardware, or
hardware as in fried chips hardware?
The cyclades is brand-new out of the box and works in every other way..
Board rev is 16Ye 1.02a/PCI. does anyone else have one of these working with
mgetty?
Julian A.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 23:16:53 1996
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Message-ID: <32A28196.31DFF4F5@whistle.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 23:13:26 -0800
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
Organization: Whistle Communications
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: check out this purify-like thing
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It has a Linux version, but the main page mentions BSD-86
as well.. maybe they are planning one..
I can guarantee that we'll buy one if they do..
you might qant to look to and let them know that they should
see about FreeBSD....
http://www.parasoft.com/
julian
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Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 23:28:00 -0800 (PST)
From: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Chairs! Was: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
In-Reply-To: <199612020003.RAA09460@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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Guys and gals;
On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, Terry Lambert wrote:
> It's on track. I've been off track from my injury. I have to get
> orthopedic furniture to let me sit hunched over for hours over a
> PC any more. My chair at home is a government surplus offic chair
> and just doesn't cut it for my back any more. 8-(.
Office Depot has the OfficeStar ergonomic chair in maroon or blue
for us$179.00. I strongly reccommended it. We bought them at work, and
they are so damn good i got one for home. I had a 13 hour CMOS marathon
( peed twice ) and i never even got stiff.
All of u under 30's...if u like this line of work, get the ergo
chair and the keyboard now! and stack that monitor on top of 5 intel data
books! It is well worth the 225 bucks or so, believe me! Bad backs suck!
no, i have no financial interest in ofiice depot, just a profound interest
in all of you people staying productive.....
*******************************************************************************
John Utz spaz@u.washington.edu
idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 1 23:57:38 1996
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From: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
Message-Id: <199612020756.AAA17064@hemi.com>
Subject: Re: Lex/Yacc question
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 00:56:12 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199611292054.NAA03886@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Nov 29, 96 01:54:57 pm
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> <ST_HELO>[\r\n] {
> BEGIN INITIAL;
> return HELO_END;
> }
>
> The use of a "HELO_END" token lets us recognize the end of the statement
> for a partial statement (HELO STR_DOMAIN HELO_END is otherwise ambiguous).
You can also avoid states if you want to... for example, in your rfc821.l:
| %{
| #include "y.tab.h"
| %}
|
| %%
|
| helo { return HELO; }
|
| \n { return CR; }
|
| . { return CHAR; }
Then in rfc821.y you can do:
| %token HELO CR CHAR
|
| %start command
|
| %%
|
| command: /* nothing*/
| | command incomplete_helo
| | command helo_command
| { yyerrok; }
| ;
|
| incomplete_helo : HELO CR
| { printf ("Helo requires DOMAIN.\n"); }
|
| helo_command : HELO string CR
| { printf ("Got HELO\n"); /* Do something */ }
|
| string : CHAR
| | string CHAR
(Yea, that CR should probably a CR LF.) I have a hand-crafted rfc821
daemon I use for a custom email-to-paging gateway which I'll probably
rewrite using the above approach. The above code is from a quicky
version I wrote which understands MAIL, RCPT, RSET, QUIT, and DATA.
(Trivial to add.)
Regards,
-Ade Barkah
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Inet: mbarkah@hemi.com - HEMISPHERE ONLINE - <http://www.hemi.com/>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 00:26:02 1996
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To: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 16:45:40 +1100."
<199612020545.QAA15515@suburbia.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 00:25:37 -0800
Message-ID: <26492.849515137@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Low level terminal-independent routines for manipulating the display
> of a terminal.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And about as useful as libtermlib. Sorry, this is not what we were
talking about at all. By this metric, the printf() family of routines
provide a character display construction toolkit. :-)
We're talking about something which actually provides you with
scrolling list boxes, forms, "buttons", menus, the whole whack.
> Agree it isn't exactly tcl/tk but it is the closest I've seen for
> character based displays. This is the right answer, but now you
> have me confused as to whether I have the right question ;)
I think you've got entirely the wrong question, sorry. This not only
isn't in the same ballpark as what we're discussing, it's not even the
same sport! :-)
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 00:29:00 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
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>From smtpd Mon Dec 2 19:15:03 1996
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From: "Tom Spindler" <dogcow@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: why mycroft loves openbsd, as explained by umich wankers
To: meditation@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 03:06:57 -0500 (EST)
Cc: friedman@gnu.ai.mit.edu
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Forwarded message:
>From unix.admins-errors@umich.edu Fri Nov 29 23:06:14 1996
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 23:05:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Douglas Song <dugsong@umich.edu>
X-Sender: dugsong@lukyduk.ifs.umich.edu
To: Tom Spindler <dogcow@us.itd.umich.edu>
cc: unix.admins@umich.edu
Subject: Re: OpenBSD being ported to NeXT hardware
In-Reply-To: <199611300330.WAA11544@us.itd.umich.edu>
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On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Tom Spindler wrote:
> Unless mycroft has moved to california and his writing style has gone way
> downhill, I'd be surprised if this port was being undertaken by the "real"
> mycroft. (especially with mycroft being a netbsd core member, and theo's
> weenieism causing the net/openbsd split.)
without getting into the politics of the bsd pissing match, openbsd is
just simply more complete code. it is netbsd, plus the best of freebsd
(except their VM system! politics.), and many additional fixes (mostly
obscure security patches). it has a more liberal development policy, which
people both like and dislike, but was apparently the reason for CITI's
move to it from netbsd. having tried and looked at the source for all
three, i have to concur with the CITI guys - openbsd has a real advantage
because of their open CVS tree, regardless of what kind of person theo is.
fixes get into openbsd months before net or freebsd, and hackers looking
for bsd holes regularly scour the log of recent openbsd commits for
net/freebsd vulnerabilities. openbsd is for hackers - net and freebsd are
for people who want their code committed based on their reputation
(oversimplified, but true nonetheless)...
so i wouldn't put it totally past mycroft (if it really is him) to defect
to openbsd, all things considered (especially his interest in security).
---
dugsong@{UMICH.EDU,monkey.org}
programmer, sysadmin, resident advisor, dork.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~dugsong/
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 00:42:37 1996
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To: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Chairs! Was: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Dec 1996 23:28:00 PST."
<Pine.OSF.3.95.961201231804.23813A-100000@becker2.u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 00:41:44 -0800
Message-ID: <26556.849516104@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Office Depot has the OfficeStar ergonomic chair in maroon or blue
> for us$179.00. I strongly reccommended it. We bought them at work, and
> they are so damn good i got one for home. I had a 13 hour CMOS marathon
> ( peed twice ) and i never even got stiff.
So, this is the one which comes with a catheter? How often do you
need to change the bag?
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 01:07:29 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 01:07:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Snob Art Genre <ben@narcissus.ml.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>, Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Chairs! Was: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > Office Depot has the OfficeStar ergonomic chair in maroon or blue
> > for us$179.00. I strongly reccommended it. We bought them at work, and
> > they are so damn good i got one for home. I had a 13 hour CMOS marathon
> > ( peed twice ) and i never even got stiff.
>
> So, this is the one which comes with a catheter? How often do you
> need to change the bag?
>
This is an MTU setting isn't it? Try "ifconfig ur0".
> Jordan
>
Ben
The views expressed above are not those of the Worker's Compensation
Board of Queensland, Australia.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 02:58:05 1996
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Subject: Re: cvsup can't find host - sometimes
In-Reply-To: <199612012314.PAA23749@austin.polstra.com> from John Polstra at "Dec 1, 96 03:14:23 pm"
To: jdp@polstra.com (John Polstra)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:27:07 +0300 (MSK)
Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org
From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (Andrey A. Chernov) <ache@nagual.ru>
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> I wasn't aware of this problem. CVSup just calls gethostbyname() to do
> lookup, so it's no different from other applications in this regard.
> But I've seen these kinds of bogus "unknown host" errors on quite a few
> applications, even on a 56 K link. It may be gethostbyname() that's not
> trying hard enough.
>
> Anyway, I will try to fix it in CVSup, by making it retry a few times
> before giving up.
I don't think it is gethostbyname() fail, because everything else
find it immediately because whole *.freebsd.org cached by my named
as secondary. Maybe modula soemhow resets intial network search
sleep (cause it immediately expired?)
--
Andrey A. Chernov
<ache@nagual.ru>
http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 02:58:35 1996
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Subject: Re: cvsup can't find host - sometimes
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19961201231853.freebsd@xaa.stack.nl> from "FreeBSD matters of Mark Huizer (xaa)" at "Dec 1, 96 11:18:53 pm"
To: freebsd@xaa.stack.nl (FreeBSD matters of Mark Huizer (xaa))
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:28:26 +0300 (MSK)
Cc: StevenR362@aol.com, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de,
freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (Andrey A. Chernov) <ache@nagual.ru>
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> Perhaps we could check that out from both sides :-)
> Perhaps if I put the logfile of cvsup.nl.freebsd.org next to your dialin
> behaviour, I can check if I can come up with something.
>
> Does this also happen (something worth testing) with the 'real' hostname
> alterego.stack.nl? Perhaps some nameserver is taking a little time or
> something (perhaps even the machine was just down :-)
Even don't bother to check, everything else find cvsup.nl.freebsd.org
immediately.
--
Andrey A. Chernov
<ache@nagual.ru>
http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 04:05:17 1996
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:25:05 +1030."
<199612020255.NAA02673@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 04:05:06 -0800
Message-ID: <27053.849528306@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> ctk would be OK except for the fact that it appears to be an orphan, and
> the user is likely to try to program it like it was Tk. By virtue of
> being designed for Tcl, it integrates well.
Yeah, though Ctk is also a good example of what happens if you try and
take the Tk paradigm and extend it in a direction it was never meant
to go. "Klunky" doesn't even come close to programming in Ctk.
> Then please start talking at me about it 8) I have the "wrap system
> libraries for Tcl" stuff prettyuch solved with SWIG, and I want to
> prototype that modular monster we were talking about before with a
> small module to frontend for libdisk.
Well, I'm talking to you. ;-) Wrapping system libraries is
comparatively easy, though SWIG appears to make it even easier and is
a good thing. That still doesn't help you when you've no reasonable
library for providing CUI interfaces to wrap. ;-)
> This sniffs a lot like a widget heirachy to me 8) You're just saying
> that the widget types are a little less concrete than the current
> norm "list of things to select from" rather than "listbox with scrollbar
> and returning item clicked on". The decoupling is a nice idea, but
> short of lots of smart code to perform layout work, you end up with
> a result that looks a lot like most automatically-created UI's - junk.
Well, I have played with Galaxy, C++/Views and zApp and have to say
that "junk" is probably too strong a word. You won't get an
award-winning interface out of every single one of their supported
platforms, but "looks good enough" also works for me. :-)
I also failed to make one thing clear in my first suggested interface
technique, which was that if you come up with a generic Widget
mechanism that *ignores* layout considerations and only really tries
to handle the tie-up between front-end and back-end code as well as
identifying and maniplating individual "Widgets" by name, you can take
all the liberties you want in making a given layout look as nice as
you want.
Let's say that my chosen development environment for the moment is
Motif (stop gagging, everyone, this is a hypothetical example). I can
write my Motif front end code to directly take every liberty in the
book with Motif to get a really snazzy (for Motif) interface with
every feature used to the hilt. Then I write some glue to interface
those Motif objects which the back end wants to know about into my
abstract Widget layer - the abstract Widget type just encapsulates the
Motif object (whatever it might be) and provides a way for the back
end to say "Hey, whatever the hell you are, can I have the text you've
got currently selected?"
However, I think all of this misses a something important fact here
(and we get to this stage *every time* the subject comes up :-) which
is that the Universal GUI Paradigm already sort of exists, and it's
called HTML. Dave, fetch a bucket please, they're gagging again and
it's breaking my concentration.
Don't you think, really, that ultimately a HTML-driven interface is
the only one which is going to give you the best of all possible
worlds? With some care taken in the composition, even lynx can
display a fairly decent rendition of a complex form, like the one at
http://www.freebsd.org/send-pr.html, and under an X based browser they
look very nice indeed. You can embed your fancy graphics and
backgrounds and lynx will ignore it all while letting your Netscape/IE
version jump up and do cartwheels if that's what floats your boat.
I suppose that if you were *really* heavily into abstraction, you
could do both and the encapsulation of an HTML generator/driver would
just become another interface type. :-)
I dunno, what do you think of all this?
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 04:30:14 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:06:13 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199612021206.XAA20862@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: bde@zeta.org.au, proff@suburbia.net
Subject: Re: cyclades PCI driver doesn't detect carrier drop
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
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>> It seems to be a hardware problem.
>>
>> Bruce
Oops, that wasn't ready to be mailed.
I finally found the problem. In CLOCAL mode, modem status interrupts were
completely disabled in CLOCAL mode, so modem status changes were never
noticed. This doesn't matter for normal operations, but mgetty and ppp
poll the modem status. Polling doesn't fix the problem because it returns
a cached status. Polling uses essentially the same code as in sio, and in
sio it is important not to read the modem status outside of the interrupt
handler because reading it would clear any pending interrupt.
This fix leaves polling for changes in CTS, DSR and RI still broken. This
will be fixed by enabling interrupts for all the transitions or by reading
the hardware when polling. If interrupts for CTS changes are enabled then
the driver may as well do all CTS handling itself. Code already exists for
this (SOFT_CTS_OFLOW option).
---
diff -c2 cy.c~ cy.c
*** cy.c~ Thu Nov 14 17:07:44 1996
--- cy.c Mon Dec 2 20:37:02 1996
***************
*** 1914,1927 ****
/*
- * XXX we probably alway want to track carrier changes, so that
- * TS_CARR_ON gives the true carrier. If we don't track them,
- * then we should set TS_CARR_ON when CLOCAL drops.
- */
- /*
* set modem change option register 1
* generate modem interrupts on which 1 -> 0 input transitions
* also controls auto-DTR output flow-control, which we don't use
*/
! opt = cflag & CLOCAL ? 0 : CD1400_MCOR1_CDzd;
#ifdef SOFT_CTS_OFLOW
if (cflag & CCTS_OFLOW)
--- 1970,1978 ----
/*
* set modem change option register 1
* generate modem interrupts on which 1 -> 0 input transitions
* also controls auto-DTR output flow-control, which we don't use
*/
! opt = CD1400_MCOR1_CDzd;
#ifdef SOFT_CTS_OFLOW
if (cflag & CCTS_OFLOW)
***************
*** 1934,1938 ****
* generate modem interrupts on specific 0 -> 1 input transitions
*/
! opt = cflag & CLOCAL ? 0 : CD1400_MCOR2_CDod;
#ifdef SOFT_CTS_OFLOW
if (cflag & CCTS_OFLOW)
--- 1985,1989 ----
* generate modem interrupts on specific 0 -> 1 input transitions
*/
! opt = CD1400_MCOR2_CDod;
#ifdef SOFT_CTS_OFLOW
if (cflag & CCTS_OFLOW)
---
>Hardware problem as in the driver not understand the hardware, or
>hardware as in fried chips hardware?
Fried. The failures seemed to be random.
Bruce
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 04:39:55 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:41:19 +0100
From: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de>
Message-Id: <199612021141.MAA00264@campa.panke.de>
To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19961201225723.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961129181531.4983C-100000@modem.eng.umd.edu>
<329F9E2B.1E49@mail.idt.net>
<Mutt.19961130105432.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
<199612011308.OAA03585@campa.panke.de>
<Mutt.19961201225723.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
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Ollivier Robert writes:
>According to Wolfram Schneider:
>> Why we use a ">" and not a space or tab? A ">" may destroy
>> latex documents (see UNIX-HATERS handbook page 79-81).
>There are several ways to handle it:
>1. use "quoted-printable" as C-T-E: and =46 in place of "F",
I vote for 1. It works for all mail clients and does not
destroy the mail body.
>2. use >From (the Standard Way(TM)),
>3. use Content-Length (only SVR4's mail generates it).
>It depends on both your MTA and MUA...
Wolfram
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 04:52:27 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:41:15 GMT
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop)
Subject: Anyone running sendmail 8.8.3 successfully?
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Hi,
I've been trying out sendmail 8.8.3 on 2.1R, I'm seeing a number of:
sendmail[19693]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): SMTP-MAIL: died on signal 11
Doesn't happen to all incoming SMTP messages. I'm not sure whether the
message gets delivered OK (had to back out sharpish just in case :-()
I note that people running on SysV-ish platforms have had trouble with
mishandled SIGCHLD in the same spot. Any ideas?
--
Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118
rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 05:03:08 1996
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
References: <15861.849448832@time.cdrom.com>
From: Paul Richards <p.richards@elsevier.co.uk>
Date: 02 Dec 1996 13:00:21 +0000
In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Sun, 01 Dec 1996 06:00:32 -0800
Message-ID: <57ybfht82i.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk>
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"Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com> writes:
> > Argh! Aren't there _any_ decent, simple, text windowing libraries out
> > there?
>
> It sure wouldn't seem like it, no... :-(
Hmm, I think we've been here before :-)
> Needless to say, I rejected the latter alternative on the grounds that
> the problem was becoming over-engineered and it's probably bogus to
> think that you can invent a mini graphics library that's going to make
> reasonable looking objects for any conceivable environment. :-)
libforms had this working. Objects inherited properties of the parent so
you could create a box object that encapsulated a border drawing widget
and a label widget etc.
My opinion on the widgets was that if you wanted a truly portable
interface then you had to restrict yourself to those that worked in
all environments, if you were developing just an X interface then you
could get more creative (it would still run on a character display but
it probably wouldn't be very useable). This is similar in concept to
using the lcd version of html to make it more browser portable as
opposed to using netscape enhancements.
On the html front, html is not a good way to go about this. You could
not do what you did with libdialog using html. Don't fall into the
trap of believing html is a display language, at heart it's SGML but
with bells and whistles thrown in by some browser developers. It's a
really naff way to spec a user interface.
> Doing all of this in X is simple and has lots of alternatives, up to
> and including lots of nice toolkits like "Qt" or XForms. The problem
> is that making stuff look nice in ncurses is a pain in the ass, and
> effective use of color and the line-drawing character set on syscons
> displays even more so. I was kind of hoping that an ncurses expert
> would show himself by now, but evidently not. :-( I could do the X
> side of this with my eyes closed, but not the curses stuff. Every
> time I think I have its simple-*sounding* model all figured out,
> refresh() does things to the screen which leave me mystified.
Hmm, if you still want something like this I'd be interested in
digging it up again. It already had all the infrastructure, the things
it was lacking were widgets for different display classes. It's been
on my list of future projects anyway to dig it up and finish it off as
libpui (portable user interface).
The problems that really stalled me on that project were actually in
handling colours in ncurses so that it could be used in a similar
manner to libdialog (i.e. it looked the same since Jordan was using it
for sysinstall). ncurses has a very restrictive way of dealing with
colours in that you have to declare colour pairs so you can't do
things like say, select a red background, arbitrarily.
--
Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor)
Elsevier Science TIS online journal project.
Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk
Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 05:05:59 1996
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 05:05:53 -0800
Message-ID: <336.849531953@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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I kept hoping that this was just me somehow, but after looking and
looking for some sort of misconfiguration and still banging into this
one, I thought I'd finally ask.
I have a gateway machine with an SMC8216 ethernet card in it and an
ISDN TA hanging off a standard 16550 serial port. It works just
peachy, 99.9% of the time, except after I've really exercised it in
some way (seems to happen most frequently after a make world though
this could just be the sheerest coincidence). The symptom is that
it's suddenly unable to talk to its SLIP interface directly, e.g.:
root@whisker-> ifconfig -a
..
sl0: flags=9011<UP,POINTOPOINT,LINK0,MULTICAST> mtu 552
inet 204.216.27.194 --> 204.216.27.193 netmask 0xfffffff0
root@whisker-> ping 204.216.27.193
PING 204.216.27.193 (204.216.27.193): 56 data bytes
<zilch, nada, zip>
The weirder thing is that it still functions just great as a gateway.
On another machine, which it talks to (just fine) through its ethernet
interface, I can say:
jkh@time-> ping 204.216.27.193
PING 204.216.27.193 (204.216.27.193): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 204.216.27.193: icmp_seq=0 ttl=254 time=113.731 ms
No problem. This is going, after one hop, out the very same SLIP
interface that whisker refused to talk to in the previous example.
Needless to say, I'm somewhat mystified. A reboot fixes it just fine
and things work great for awhile until the next "hang."
Any clues?
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 06:13:31 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:11:27 -0600
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Message-Id: <199612021411.IAA18461@bonkers.taronga.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
Newsgroups: taronga.freebsd.hackers
In-Reply-To: <199612020545.QAA15515@suburbia.net>
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In article <199612020545.QAA15515@suburbia.net>,
Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net> wrote:
>Agree it isn't exactly tcl/tk but it is the closest I've seen for
>character based displays.
There's a curses version of tk out there, called "ctk". Now general wish/wishx
programs don't generaly work under cwish, but you can write programs for cwish
that work fine under wish.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 06:22:39 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:20:34 -0600
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Message-Id: <199612021420.IAA18698@bonkers.taronga.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
Newsgroups: taronga.freebsd.hackers
In-Reply-To: <27053.849528306@time.cdrom.com>
References: <199612020255.NAA02673@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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In article <27053.849528306@time.cdrom.com>,
Jordan K. Hubbard <jkh@time.cdrom.com> wrote:
>However, I think all of this misses a something important fact here
>(and we get to this stage *every time* the subject comes up :-) which
>is that the Universal GUI Paradigm already sort of exists, and it's
>called HTML. Dave, fetch a bucket please, they're gagging again and
>it's breaking my concentration.
I'm not gagging. I like this idea... except for one thing...
Every time someone does an HTML interface, they then go and look at "now how
do we do authentication over HTTP so I can use this for system administration
without giving crackers a user-friendly doorkey?". Remember the hole in
SATAN/SANTA 1.0?
Now I don't have the dox handy, but when I set up lynx for our BBS at work
I recall that it had hooks for you to run commands locally... sort of less
than plugins, more than CGI, and done in the browser. If you restrict it to
use file: URLs only you can avoid the authentication question completely and
still have a decent character-based UI.
The only question comes... is there an X-based browser that's sufficiently
good, easily enough expanded to grok the lynx tags, and the source is
available without Motif? Well... there's Arena...
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 06:36:42 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:36:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Green <green@fang.cs.sunyit.edu>
Message-Id: <199612021436.JAA23817@fang.cs.sunyit.edu>
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Qcam utils
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Anyone out there port qcamlib or any of the other qcam utilities
available out there?
--
Charles Green, PRC Inc.
Rome Laboratory, NY
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 07:00:49 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:02:41 +0100 (MET)
From: "didier@omnix.fr.org" <didier@omnix.fr.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Seagate ST34371W drives
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961202160224.363B-100000@zapata.omnix.fr.org>
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do you have any experience with these drives ?
do you know if they are ok with FreeBSD 2.1.5R
thanks for your help
--
Didier Derny
didier@omnix.fr.org
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 07:02:49 1996
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 10:02:36 -0500
To: "Kevin P. Neal" <kpneal@pobox.com>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, davem@caip.rutgers.edu
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At 01:21 AM 12/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:15 PM 12/2/96 +1000, Stephen Hocking wrote:
>>A Linux zealot has the following in his sig - what's our current ability?
>>
>>---------------------------------------------////
>>Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
>>199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
>>ethernet. Beat that! ////
>>-----------------------------------------////__________ o
>>David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
>
>*sigh*.
>
>Hope this doesn't get out onto the net again.
Yeah, like those FTP reported statistics are really accurate. I've seen
physically impossible numbers.......
db
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 07:09:20 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:08:22 +0100 (MET)
From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@korin.warman.org.pl>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: de0 not restoring routing
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.961202155429.7734A-100000@korin.warman.org.pl>
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Hi!
I installed 2.2-ALPHA today, and I noticed some strange behaviour of the
de0 driver. I use SMC EtherPower PCI adapter, with 10baseT.
Here is my config:
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: FreeBSD 2.2-ALPHA #0: Mon Dec 2 13:23:30 MET 1996
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: root@smurf2.warman.org.pl:/usr/src/sys/compile/TUNE
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: Calibrating clock(s) relative to mc146818A clock ... i586 clock: 132634412 Hz, i8254 clock: 1193211 Hz
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: CPU: Pentium (132.63-MHz 586-class CPU)
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: Features=0x1bf<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8>
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: real memory = 67108864 (65536K bytes)
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: avail memory = 63164416 (61684K bytes)
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: Probing for devices on PCI bus 0:
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: chip0 <Intel 82439> rev 1 on pci0:0
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: chip1 <Intel 82371SB PCI-ISA bridge> rev 1 on pci0:7:0
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: chip2 <Intel 82371SB IDE interface> rev 0 on pci0:7:1
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: ahc0 <Adaptec 2940 Ultra SCSI host adapter> rev 0 int a irq 11 on pci0:15
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: ahc0: aic7880 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs
Dec 2 13:25:09 smurf2 /kernel: ahc0 waiting for scsi devices to settle
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: (ahc0:0:0): "FUJITSU M2952S-512 0124" type 0 fixed SCSI 2
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 2291MB (4693462 512 byte sectors)
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: vga0 <VGA-compatible display device> rev 0 int a irq 10 on pci0:16
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: de0 <Digital DC21041 Ethernet> rev 17 int a irq 9 on pci0:17
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: de0: DC21041 [10Mb/s] pass 1.1
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: de0: address 00:00:c0:32:6f:e9
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: Probing for devices on the ISA bus:
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0>
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: sio0: type 16550A
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: sio1: type 16550A
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: lpt0: Interrupt-driven port
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: lp0: TCP/IP capable interface
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: fdc0: NEC 72065B
Dec 2 13:25:10 smurf2 /kernel: fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in
Dec 2 13:25:11 smurf2 /kernel: npx0 on motherboard
Dec 2 13:25:11 smurf2 /kernel: npx0: INT 16 interface
Dec 2 13:25:11 smurf2 /kernel: changing root device to sd0a
Dec 2 13:25:11 smurf2 /kernel: de0: enabling 10baseT port
When there is a link failure (e.g. I pull out the cable), it prints:
Dec 2 15:02:37 smurf2 /kernel: de0: autosense failed: cable problem?
Dec 2 15:02:38 smurf2 routed[57]: sendto(de0, 224.0.0.2): No route to host
Dec 2 15:02:41 smurf2 routed[57]: sendto(de0, 224.0.0.2): No route to host
And then, when I plug in the cable:
Dec 2 15:03:06 smurf2 routed[57]: interface de0 to 148.81.160.200 turned off
Dec 2 15:03:09 smurf2 routed[57]: interface de0 to 148.81.160.200 restored
So, everything seems ok, EXCEPT it doesn't restore routing! netstat -r
hangs forever...
So, finally I have to make ifconfig de0 down, the up, and then it works
again...
Dec 2 15:17:27 smurf2 /kernel: de0: autosense failed: cable problem?
Dec 2 15:58:30 smurf2 routed[57]: interface de0 to 148.81.160.200 turned off
Dec 2 15:58:33 smurf2 routed[57]: interface de0 to 148.81.160.200 restored
But probably this isn't the way the things should work, is it?
I'd appreciate any insights/help/other... ;-)
Andy
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Andrzej Bialecki <abial@warman.org.pl> _) _) _)_) _)_)_) _) _)
--------------------------------------- _)_) _) _) _) _)_) _)_)
Research and Academic Network in Poland _) _)_) _)_)_)_) _) _) _)
Bartycka 18, 00-716 Warsaw, Poland _) _) _) _) _)_)_) _) _)
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 07:39:42 1996
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From: mark@plato.salford.ac.uk (Mark Powell)
Subject: Problems building 2.2-current
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: 2 Dec 1996 15:37:49 -0000
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Hi,
Been running 2.2-960801-SNAP since it came out. Wanted to get up to date
so I updated all sources on Friday. Tried to to 'make world', but it keeps
falling over at different places with programs such as: ld, cc1 & as failing
due to signals. I thought it some incompatiblity with compiling the new
system on the old so I tried 'make -k' to compile as much as I could.
i.e. here's my /var/log/console from today:
Dec 2 12:36:45 plato /kernel: pid 12318 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 4 (core dumped)
Dec 2 12:45:06 plato /kernel: pid 15996 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 12:46:41 plato /kernel: pid 16464 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 12:48:54 plato /kernel: pid 16770 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 12:50:23 plato /kernel: pid 16920 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 12:56:34 plato /kernel: pid 19320 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 13:32:19 plato /kernel: pid 1583 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped)
Dec 2 13:36:37 plato /kernel: pid 3412 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 13:38:57 plato /kernel: pid 4503 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 13:47:39 plato /kernel: pid 7945 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 13:48:18 plato /kernel: pid 8140 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:05:04 plato /kernel: pid 28732 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:08:44 plato /kernel: pid 218 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:08:49 plato /kernel: pid 222 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:09:30 plato /kernel: pid 320 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:10:15 plato /kernel: pid 428 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:13:13 plato /kernel: pid 772 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:13:14 plato /kernel: pid 777 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:14:42 plato /kernel: pid 2477 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:19:04 plato /kernel: pid 4652 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:19:08 plato /kernel: pid 4712 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:19:23 plato /kernel: pid 4956 (cc1), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:19:33 plato /kernel: pid 5118 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Dec 2 14:19:33 plato /kernel: pid 5123 (as), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped)
Any ideas what causes this?
I made as much of it as i could and also rebuilt the kernel. Now when I'm trying to
rebuild I'm getting similar behaviour as before (as, ld or cc1 fail with differnet
signals at different places). However, I'm also getting the kernel hanging solid
during the compiles. Similar to earlier this year when problems with the AHA7880
code caused the same hangs during lots of disk activity. I'm now rebuilding with
the 2.2-960801 kernel, but I still get the former problems. Any ideas? TIA
--
Mark Powell - Unix Information Officer - Clifford Whitworth Building
A.I.S., University of Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK.
Tel: +44 161 745 5936 Fax: +44 161 736 3596
Email: mark@salford.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key)
<A HREF="http://www.ucsalf.ac.uk/~mark/">Home Page</A>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 08:17:26 1996
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 10:17:21 -0600
From: Hal Snyder <hal@vailsys.com>
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Organization: Vail Systems, Inc.
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To: Bob Bishop <rb@gid.co.uk>
CC: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Anyone running sendmail 8.8.3 successfully?
References: <v01540b03aec87c45a160@[194.32.164.2]>
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Bob Bishop wrote:
> I've been trying out sendmail 8.8.3 on 2.1R, I'm seeing a number of:
>
> sendmail[19693]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): SMTP-MAIL: died on signal 11
We're running 8.8.3 here on a couple FreeBSD servers, hundreds of
messages per day. None of the above messages appear in any of the logs
for the last week.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 08:19:58 1996
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Subject: Re: Qcam utils
To: green@fang.cs.sunyit.edu (Charles Green)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:22:11 +0100 (MET)
From: "Soren Schmidt" <sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612021436.JAA23817@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> from "Charles Green" at Dec 2, 96 09:36:05 am
From: sos@FreeBSD.org
Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org
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In reply to Charles Green who wrote:
>
> Anyone out there port qcamlib or any of the other qcam utilities
> available out there?
Not really, I have only used the xqcam util, and played a little
with xfqcam. But I'd like to hear more, anybody ??
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team
Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 08:30:38 1996
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From: John Dyson <dyson@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612021630.LAA09409@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:30:13 -0500 (EST)
Cc: kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org, davem@caip.rutgers.edu
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961202100230.00b7b890@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Dec 2, 96 10:02:36 am
Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org
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> At 01:21 AM 12/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >At 01:15 PM 12/2/96 +1000, Stephen Hocking wrote:
> >>A Linux zealot has the following in his sig - what's our current ability?
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------////
> >>Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
> >>199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
> >>ethernet. Beat that! ////
> >>-----------------------------------------////__________ o
> >>David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
> >
> >*sigh*.
> >
> >Hope this doesn't get out onto the net again.
>
>
> Yeah, like those FTP reported statistics are really accurate. I've seen
> physically impossible numbers.......
>
I have been holding quiet until now, esp since I was one of the culprits
in the above mentioned flame-war. My take on the whole thing is that
there is always an attempt to show parity or superiority of one party
over another (ego or money thing or whatever.) However, when comparisons
are made, the context or situation associated with the comparisons should
be as fully disclosed as possible (especially when the situation might
not be "real world" for many of the users who are attempting to compare.)
Micro-level benchmarks are not the applications that end-users
normally run and should be interpreted very carefully. Frankly, many end-users
can be fooled by looking at the micro-benchmark results. Application
benchmarks are more accurate, especially when run in the same kind of
environment that the user will encounter. Even then, you should not
blindly trust those.
One thing that is missing in many micro-level benchmarks is the testing
of scalability. Running one tcp connection between machines is very
different than running 2000. Running one process on a machine is very
different than running 2000 processes (even if the system is not paging.)
In fact, the impact of micro-benchmark perf is different depending on a machines
application. For example, fork/exec time on a single user workstation with
a forking www server that is servicing 100 hits per day isn't very important.
Even if the fork/exec time is 10msecs, it isn't going to impact the performance
of the system very much. (Note that FreeBSD fork/exec time is 650usecs
on my machine, but in my application -- writing/compiling software, it
wouldn't appear to be measurably faster than a machine that fork/exec's in
10msecs.) Other factors will be more important on a system like that.
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 08:34:06 1996
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To: cvsup-bugs@polstra.com
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: cvsup vs. FreeBSD-2.1.6.1: can't find libc.so.3.0
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 11:33:12 -0500
From: Chris Shenton <cshenton@it.hq.nasa.gov>
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I downloaded the package and added it, it wanted a couple libraries I
didn't have so I added them: libz I think. Now it's still unhappy
about not finding libc.so.3.0, so I lose.
I've just supped and built FreeBSD-2.1.6.1-RELEASE; do I need to be
running -CURRENT or some other version to get the facilities cvsup
requires?
Thanks.
root@angst# /usr/local/sbin/cvsup
ld.so: warning: /usr/X11R6/lib/libXaw.so.6.0: minor version 0 older than expected 1, using it anyway
ld.so: warning: /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6.0: minor version 0 older than expected 1, using it anyway
ld.so: warning: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.0: minor version 0 older than expected 1, using it anyway
ld.so failed: Can't find shared library "libc.so.3.0"
root@angst# cat /etc/motd
FreeBSD 2.1.6.1-RELEASE (Angst) #0: Wed Nov 27 11:03:35 EST 1996
root@angst# pkg_info -Ia
xpm-3.4f xpm-3.4f - version 3.4f of the X Pixmap library
fvwm95-2.0.41f Win95 lookalike version of the fvwm2 window manager.
perl-5.002 PERL (Pattern Extraction and Recognition Language)
emacs-19.31 GNU Emacs text editor
fvwm-2.0.43 beta of the fvwm window manager - requires XPM
ssh-1.2.14 ssh - secure shell client (remote login program)
fwtk-1.3 A toolkit used for building firewalls based on proxy service
apache-1.1.1 The extremely popular Apache http server. Very fast, very c
gated-3.5b3 GateD routing protocol daemon (version 3.5 Alpha 11)
isc-dhcp-b0 ISC Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol client and server co
wide-dhcp-1.3b Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol, WIDE-Implimentation.
modula-3-lib-3.6 The shared libraries needed for executing Modula-3 programs.
modula-3-3.6 Modula-3 compiler and libraries from DEC Systems Research Ce
cvsup-13.5 A network file distribution and update system for CVS reposi
ssh-1.2.16 Secure shell client and server (remote login program).
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 08:42:26 1996
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Subject: Manual for 386/486 board anyone ??
To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:44:51 +0100 (MET)
From: "Soren Schmidt" <sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk>
From: sos@freebsd.org
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I got my hands on an oldish 386/486 combo board.
I'm looking for a manual or just the jumper settings for this
board. It bears the marking:
OPTI 495SLC - 3406 Rev 1.1
Its fitted with an amd 40Mhz 386DX, and have a socket in which
to fit either a 387DX or a 486DX cpu. It has 2 VESA slots to the
far left and 8 30pin sims. It looks an awfull lot like an
MST (Micro Star) board I had some of loooong ago.
Anybody able to help out ??
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team
Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 08:45:56 1996
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Routing questions
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Background:
I've got a block of 32 IP addresses assigned to me (a chunk out of a
class C), and everything has been working wonderfully thanks to advice
from folks on hackers when I set this up.
Howevever, my boss now wants his own little dedicated network at home.
Currently, he's got a single line he dials into on demand and using PPP
and arp he can have one of the home computers dial-in and be 'on the
net' which works well. Each of his machines has it's own dedicated IP
addresses, and we've setup MX records so that email and such go to the
correct places when they are down.
But, now he wants to buy a simply little gateway box that has a
dedicated link and then have 3 machines sit behind it on the ethernet at
home and I have *no* idea how to setup the routing for it. We've got
the IP addresses to spare, but we can't afford to break out current
office network into two chunks (we can have more than 15 hosts in the
office active at any one time), and I'd also like to set something up
like this at home as well.
I've thought of two solutions, and the first is so ugly I'm not even
sure it's doable. Basically, I would create host routes to all of his
machines on my 'gateway' box that point to his home-router box.
However, how does his home router box know how to route packets from his
internal ethernet vs. over the PPP line to our office ethernet? There
is also the problem of the portable boxes needing two separate ethernet
addresses (or a scrip that deletes the host routes), one for home and
one for the office.
The other solution is to do some sort of address munging on my gateway
box. Basically, I'd assign him one of the RFC 1918 networks, and then
have a mapping of 'fake' IP to 'real' IP address on my gateway box.
This would seem to be a fairly common 'firewall' type of job, but I'm
not familiar if such code exists for FreeBSD, or if someone has a better
solution.
If anyone has any good advice that is fairly simple to implement I'm all
ears!
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 09:16:48 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:11:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Tao <taob@io.org>
To: Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de>
cc: FreeBSD hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Wiring down disks in 2.2-ALPHA
In-Reply-To: <199612020629.HAA21666@uriah.heep.sax.de>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, J Wunsch wrote:
>
> ahc is a controller, so declare it as being one.
My goof. :( Some of my config files started using "device"
instead of "controller" somewhere along the way (I keep skeleton
config files from release to release). However, config doesn't print
a warning when I use "device" instead of "controller" for the ncr and
ahc drivers, and the kernels generated work fine.
--
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net)
Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp.
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 09:32:28 1996
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From: John Hay <jhay@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za>
Message-Id: <199612021732.TAA09403@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za>
Subject: Re: Anyone running sendmail 8.8.3 successfully?
In-Reply-To: <v01540b03aec87c45a160@[194.32.164.2]> from Bob Bishop at "Dec 2, 96 12:41:15 pm"
To: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:32:06 +0200 (SAT)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
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>
> I've been trying out sendmail 8.8.3 on 2.1R, I'm seeing a number of:
>
> sendmail[19693]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): SMTP-MAIL: died on signal 11
>
> Doesn't happen to all incoming SMTP messages. I'm not sure whether the
> message gets delivered OK (had to back out sharpish just in case :-()
>
The machine that is doing the remailing of the FreeBSD mailing-lists
in South Africa is running it and it seems fine.
John
--
John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 09:36:37 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:48:06 +0100 (MET)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199612021748.SAA02955@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff in netstat -r
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netstat -r gives among other (quite normal looking things)
the following line:
137.226.31.255 ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff UHLWb 2 21082 ed1
This is obviously the broadcast address. What makes me think is that
I see this only on that one machine (running samba/WINS, BTW).
ed1: flags=8a43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,ALLMULTI,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
inet 137.226.31.18 netmask 0xfffffe00 broadcast 137.226.31.255
ether 00:00:c0:b2:90:2b
--Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 09:40:12 1996
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Reply-To: <SimsS@IBM.Net>
From: "Steve Sims" <SimsS@IBM.Net>
To: <hackers@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system.
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:44:32 -0500
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Brian Tao <taob@io.org> pens:
[File Corruption vis-a-vis UFS & MSDOSFS ]
> On another occasion, ld.so complained it couldn't find needed
> libraries, and an 'ls -l' in /usr/lib showed corrupted directory
> entries (strange filenames, huge file sizes, etc.) I immediately
> rebooted and after the fsck, nothing appeared to be lost.
====
I had a similar experience with UFS corruption (ld.so complaints) but without
the happy ending you cite: An fsck *didn't* fix it - the entire lib tree was
hosed -- to the point of a system rebuild to sort things out.
Since that, I've religiously avoided MSDOS file systems. That's why FTP was
invented, I guess ;-).
While I endorse the movement to disable (or make it harder to mount) DOS file
systems as a *real*-short-term fix, the real goal _is_ to fix MSDOSFS. How
can I help in testing same?
...sjs...
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 10:18:18 1996
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: CTM, -current and patches
From: Peter Mutsaers <plm@xs4all.nl>
Date: 02 Dec 1996 07:55:21 +0100
Message-ID: <87u3q5fnae.fsf@plm.xs4all.nl>
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Hi,
I run -current (sometimes) via CTM. Now I need some special patches
(for ISDN on one system and PCMCIA on another) but then the checksums
for CTM will fail and thus CTM updates will fail.
How do others stay current and use patches to the standard source
code? Is using CVS (and using cvs-current instead of src-current, or
CVsup) the only way?
--
Peter Mutsaers | Abcoude (Utrecht), | Trust is a good quality
plm@xs4all.nl | the Netherlands | for other people to have
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 10:25:26 1996
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From: John Dyson <dyson@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612021825.NAA00322@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system.
To: SimsS@IBM.Net
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:25:15 -0500 (EST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612021740.RAA21851@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net> from "Steve Sims" at Dec 2, 96 09:44:32 am
Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org
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>
> While I endorse the movement to disable (or make it harder to mount) DOS file
> systems as a *real*-short-term fix, the real goal _is_ to fix MSDOSFS. How
> can I help in testing same?
>
Check out the fix in FreeBSD-current. The likely candidate for the bug
that hosed your system was fixed by the vfs_bio.c et.al. fixes committed
this weekend. When BDE and Robert Nordier pointed out a certain behavior
of MSDOSFS (that I didn't know), I put together a fix so that vfs_bio
can accomodate it.
John
dyson@freebsd.org
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 10:31:56 1996
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Reply-To: <SimsS@IBM.Net>
From: "Steve Sims" <SimsS@IBM.Net>
To: <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Image Maps under Apache
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:30:39 -0500
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Anybody got the source for a working Image Map under the Apache HTTP server
that they'd like to share?
I'm trying (in vain) to show some snazzy drill-down pictures but the server
doesn't seem to grok this.
Thanks!
...sjs...
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 10:55:53 1996
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <199612021854.MAA24842@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone running sendmail 8.8.3 successfully?
To: jhay@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (John Hay)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:54:32 -0600 (CST)
Cc: rb@gid.co.uk, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612021732.TAA09403@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> from "John Hay" at Dec 2, 96 07:32:06 pm
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> > I've been trying out sendmail 8.8.3 on 2.1R, I'm seeing a number of:
> >
> > sendmail[19693]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): SMTP-MAIL: died on signal 11
> >
> > Doesn't happen to all incoming SMTP messages. I'm not sure whether the
> > message gets delivered OK (had to back out sharpish just in case :-()
> >
>
> The machine that is doing the remailing of the FreeBSD mailing-lists
> in South Africa is running it and it seems fine.
Ditto smyrno.sol.net, one of the USA list exploders.
Drop and go, wish more stuff worked that well.
... JG
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 10:59:07 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:58:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeremy Sigmon <jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu>
To: Steve Sims <SimsS@ibm.net>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Image Maps under Apache
In-Reply-To: <199612021831.SAA156447@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.961202135556.27129C-200000@www.hsc.wvu.edu>
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This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.
--0-319822374-849553085=:27129
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Anybody got the source for a working Image Map under the Apache HTTP server
> that they'd like to share?
>
> I'm trying (in vain) to show some snazzy drill-down pictures but the server
> doesn't seem to grok this.
>
Look at http://www.hsc.wvu.edu/toolkit/
the buttons are image maps.
a sample source is attached.
--0-319822374-849553085=:27129
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name="admin.map"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Content-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.961202135805.27129D@www.hsc.wvu.edu>
Content-Description:
ZGVmYXVsdCAvdG9vbGtpdC8NCmNpcmNsZSAvICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg
ICAgICAgICAzNCwzMyA2NiwzMw0KY2lyY2xlIC90b29sa2l0LyAgICAgICAg
ICAgICAgICAgIDEwMSwzMyAxMzMsMzMNCmNpcmNsZSAvdG9vbGtpdC9tYXAu
aHRtbCAgICAgICAgICAxNjYsMzMgMTk5LDMzICANCmNpcmNsZSAvdG9vbGtp
dC9zZWFyY2guaHRtbCAgICAgICAyMzMsMzMgMjY2LDMzICANCmNpcmNsZSAv
dG9vbGtpdC8gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAyOTksMzMgMzMzLDMzICANCg==
--0-319822374-849553085=:27129--
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:00:49 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612021835.LAA10927@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Lex/Yacc question
To: mbarkah@hemi.com (Ade Barkah)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:35:37 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612020756.AAA17064@hemi.com> from "Ade Barkah" at Dec 2, 96 00:56:12 am
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> Terry Lambert wrote:
>
> > <ST_HELO>[\r\n] {
> > BEGIN INITIAL;
> > return HELO_END;
> > }
> >
> > The use of a "HELO_END" token lets us recognize the end of the statement
> > for a partial statement (HELO STR_DOMAIN HELO_END is otherwise ambiguous).
>
> You can also avoid states if you want to... for example, in your rfc821.l:
[ ... ]
> | command: /* nothing*/
> | | command incomplete_helo
> | | command helo_command
> | { yyerrok; }
> | ;
[ ... ]
I found in implementation for an interactive parser, this tends to fail.
Specifically, using the "-i" option to get a case insensitive parser
(instead of specifying [Hh][Ee][Ll][Oo]) results in your string that
you assemble from '.' returns coming back case converted.
I actually though this was bad from several perspectives, not only
for the adulteration of the "name@domain.com (Long Name)" and the
"Long Name <name@domain.com>" "Long Name" strings (which is bad enough
by itself), but that state can not be avoided entirely.
Specifically, there is an 821->822 provision for "X-authentication-warning:"
and for "Apparently-To:" based on the HELO state and the "RCPT TO:",
respectively.
There is also an exclusive state requirement for mail content processing
(un-byte-stuffing leading '.' characters, etc.).
I found that in practice, the state machine would hang until the next
command (shift/reduce conflict) when using a command that was a prefix
of another command.
One caveat: I am using the 'lex' compatability mode (except for the "-i",
which is flex specific), so your mileage may vary...
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:02:41 1996
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Reply-To: <SimsS@IBM.Net>
From: "Steve Sims" <SimsS@IBM.Net>
To: "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@sarnoff.com>
Cc: <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system.
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:46:07 -0500
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I've never FIPS'ed the drive in question, although I freely admit that I was
begging for abuse.
The drive in question is a Seagate Barracuda 12550 (2 Gig) with 1.2 Gig DOS
and 800 Meg FreeBSD.
(Yeah, yeah, I know better, but I swear, Officer, I was *only* reading the
DOS side.)
...sjs...
----------
From: Ron G. Minnich <rminnich@sarnoff.com>
To: Steve Sims <SimsS@IBM.Net>
Cc: taob@io.org
Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system.
Date: Monday, December 02, 1996 1:14 PM
sorry, i have not followed this thread. Had either of you ever
used FIPS to partition your disks?
ron
Ron Minnich |"Failure is not an option" -- Gene Kranz
rminnich@sarnoff.com | -- except, of course, on Microsoft products
(609)-734-3120 |
ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:06:32 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612021841.LAA10946@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfram Schneider)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:41:51 -0700 (MST)
Cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612021141.MAA00264@campa.panke.de> from "Wolfram Schneider" at Dec 2, 96 12:41:19 pm
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> >According to Wolfram Schneider:
> >> Why we use a ">" and not a space or tab? A ">" may destroy
> >> latex documents (see UNIX-HATERS handbook page 79-81).
> >There are several ways to handle it:
> >1. use "quoted-printable" as C-T-E: and =46 in place of "F",
>
> I vote for 1. It works for all mail clients and does not
> destroy the mail body.
It is not the MTA that screws this up.
The problem is purely in the mailbox storage interface.
The "From:" -> ">From:" conversion is a convenience for bad mailbox
storage formats for evil MUA's which expect to access the mail through
direct access to the mailbox, and then bogusly use the "From:" to demark
message boundries.
This is a nasty thing for them to do, since there is no exterior
encapsulation of the messages as independent objects onces they
are in the mailbox.
If the MUA *must* do this, then an MTA that delivers everything
into one huge file should change C-T-E:, as described above. (Bleah!).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:13:49 1996
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <199612021912.NAA24856@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: cyclades PCI driver doesn't detect carrier drop
To: dg@root.com
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:12:20 -0600 (CST)
Cc: proff@suburbia.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612011922.LAA03767@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Dec 1, 96 11:22:29 am
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> >Whois the best person to conectact about this? -
> >Very trying to say the least ;)
>
> Are you sure that this isn't operator error? You do have hupcl & -clocal
> for your ports, right? Note that the device names changed and thus your
> /etc/rc.serial may be out of date...or perhaps you don't even have entries
> in there to set the initial state?
Are you still supposed to have to do this?
I don't see references to it in /etc/rc.serial.
... JG
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:15:31 1996
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Message-ID: <Mutt.19961202192506.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:25:06 +0100
From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
References: <199612020255.NAA02673@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <199612021420.IAA18698@bonkers.taronga.com>
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In-Reply-To: <199612021420.IAA18698@bonkers.taronga.com>; from Peter da Silva on Dec 2, 1996 08:20:34 -0600
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According to Peter da Silva:
> Every time someone does an HTML interface, they then go and look at "now how
> do we do authentication over HTTP so I can use this for system administration
> without giving crackers a user-friendly doorkey?". Remember the hole in
> SATAN/SANTA 1.0?
HTTP 1.1 does support authentication although the available methods are
pretty basic. Net$crap is 1.1-compliant in this respect and I think it is
the only browser that support it.
> The only question comes... is there an X-based browser that's sufficiently
> good, easily enough expanded to grok the lynx tags, and the source is
> available without Motif? Well... there's Arena...
Arena has been superceded by another browser (I can't remember the name).
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:16:08 1996
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To: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
cc: proff@suburbia.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: cyclades PCI driver doesn't detect carrier drop
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:12:20 CST."
<199612021912.NAA24856@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
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>> >Whois the best person to conectact about this? -
>> >Very trying to say the least ;)
>>
>> Are you sure that this isn't operator error? You do have hupcl & -clocal
>> for your ports, right? Note that the device names changed and thus your
>> /etc/rc.serial may be out of date...or perhaps you don't even have entries
>> in there to set the initial state?
>
>Are you still supposed to have to do this?
>
>I don't see references to it in /etc/rc.serial.
Only if you want to change the settings from the defaults.
-DG
David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:25:29 1996
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To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards), hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Alpha Based Machines (Was: Re: IBM 57SLC)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 28 Nov 1996 07:57:02 CST."
<199611281357.HAA21153@bonkers.taronga.com>
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 15:14:41 +0000
From: Matt Thomas <thomas@whydos.lkg.dec.com>
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In <199611281357.HAA21153@bonkers.taronga.com> , you wrote:
> > How many of us now have Alphas? I bought 2 multia's last month one of
> > which has NT on it and one has Linux. A FreeBSD Alpha port might now
> > have enough bodies around to make a good go of it.
>
> I think that if you want to work on BSD on the Alpha you'd probably be better
> off working with the NetBSD or OpenBSD folks, who already have ports...
>
> I think that FreeBSD is clearly the easiest and most accessible BSD port out
> there, and keeping all the FreeBSD effort behind the one arrow is reasonable,
> isn't it? After all, we already have two teams working on the "support all
> platforms" front.
> Those Multias are damn cute, but I'm afraid that they're a one-shot thing. I
> can't seem to convince any of the DEC people I talk to that a REAL PC-priced
> Alpha box is an economic necessity if they're going to survive long-term.
The following vendors showed Alpha based systems at Comdex:
Aspen Systems Dual 21164 500MHz "Twin Peaks"
Carrera Computers Cobra 21164 366-500MHz
Deskstation Technology Raptor ReFlex 500MHz
Enorex Microsystems, Inc. Alpha 21164 366-500MHz at $2,999 -$5,999
Industrial Computer PCIMG Alpha SBC 21064
Microway Screamer 21164 Motherboard
The Panda Project Archistrat 4S Alpha Workstation
Polywell Computers Webserver 500C
Vivid Image Co. VI 100 + VI 225 Controllers
Note that Enorex systems (and others) are based on the PC164 motherboard
which can support the SMT console and thus NetBSD/alpha. Note that the
default configurations are for EIDE which is not supported by NetBSD.
Basically, if you can get a configuration that is usable for Digital UNIX
or OpenVMS, it'll probably work with NetBSD/alpha.
--
Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com
3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html
Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:25:46 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612021903.MAA10974@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:03:45 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, jehamby@lightside.com, mark@quickweb.com,
jkh@time.cdrom.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612020047.QAA06327@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Dec 1, 96 04:47:37 pm
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>
> On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:03:21 -0700 (MST)
> Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org> wrote:
>
> > There is work on the PPC in the NetBSD and OpenBSD camps... and I'm not
> > talking about the PowerMac hosted stuff that NetBSD recently checked
> > into their tree, I'm talking real stuff (a Motorolla employee has been
> > doing the work -- it's not checked in at all as far as I know).
>
> We checked in PowerMac hosted stuff? Err, no... NetBSD/powerpc runs
> on any 603 or 604 with OpenFirmware (and ELF boot code; simple matter
> of frobbing the boot image for machines that use a different format
> for the boot code).
>
> Wolfgang Solfrank did the NetBSD/powerpc port, on a Firepower.
According to Carl S Shapiro <cshapiro@ic.sunysb.edu>, who, with
Thor Lancelot Simon, tried to obtain the JCC 4.4BSD-Lite port
CDROM [talking about Wolfgang's PPC code that was checked in]:
| It does not seem to have any native drivers, and relies on the
| OpenFirmware to communciate with all of the machines devices. It is not
| much of a port if you ask me, but it is a start. I emailed Wolfgang
| Solfrank a while ago with repects to taking all of the work he has done
| and applying it to a BeBox port. He though it would take quite a bit of
| effort since there are no native drivers, and second, the BeBox can only
| boot OS's other than BeOS off of it's floppy (don't bounce buffer related
| issues come into play here?).
So you're right and I'm right:
o You're right: it is not the PowerMac stuff
o I'm right: it makes ROM calls instead of using native code
I have been in communication with a Motorolla engineer who has been
working on a native port. Unfortunately, it is by download to a
hosted card, so it does not have boot code. On the other hand, it
has native drivers.
I have not pursued it vigorously because I don't have OpenFirmware
based hardware. My loaner equipment is PPCBug based.
I have ordered the PPCBug docs *twice* from Arrow Electronics:
o The first time, they billed me for FedEx (which I requested),
but sent via UPS. UPS had this habit of delivering to the
closest company location to the UPS office instead of where it
was addressed, so we ended up with pallates of manuals at
the engineering location. This was bogus, and UPS was told
that all deliveries go to the warehouse location or my
company would no longer do business with UPS.
Because Arrow used the wrong shipper, even though I paid extra
for FedEx, the materials were lost on our end when they closed
the warehouse. I blame Arrow for renigging on our agreement
about which shipper to use, but since Arrow had a signature
(not mine) they refused to replace the materials they caused to
be lost.
o The second time, they claimed to have shipped FedEx; however,
FedEx denied knowledge of the package, and Arrow was unable to
provide me with a tracking number to verify that FedEx even
had the package.
I will buy more hardware from Arrow, as necessary; however, I will not
buy special order documentation from them ever again.
Unfortunately, they seem to be the only people who sell the documentation,
and Motorola will not sell to me directly (they refer me to their
nearest dealer: Arrow).
Currently, I'm at an impasse with the boot/console interface.
Not to be daunted, I used the AIX code to boot my code. Other than
some recent VM changes (John's right: dangerous territory), I was
booting to a shell (unable to fork) prior to my accident. I haven't
done much since, unfortunately. Clearly, a release could not use
AIX code to boot... it belongs to IBM.
Well... more status than I started to write when I started to compose
this message. 8-(.
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:27:51 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612021907.MAA10992@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system.
To: taob@io.org (Brian Tao)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:07:36 -0700 (MST)
Cc: rnordier@iafrica.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961201205415.4096B-100000@nap.io.org> from "Brian Tao" at Dec 1, 96 08:56:21 pm
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> > I have a five-week break coming up in mid-December. The code is
> > pretty much all done now, anyway, so I'll aim to surpise you. :-)
>
> That would be most welcome! I'm not sure how much longer I can
> stand Linux folk saying things like "Gee, how can you trust FreeBSD's
> filesystem if the developers can't even get an MS-DOS filesystem to
> work properly?", as they go load up their VFAT/NTFS/HPFS filesystems.
> *sigh*
We *can* make it work properly.
There are a small number of *trivial* VFS changes that would help
immensely. I'm not going to code around bogosities that should
not be there in the first place; If I wanted such bogosities, I'd
work on Linux, where the prevalidation of memory access makes it
a bit faster on combined copyin/out operations, but opens a nice
race window each time you invoke kernel preemption (can you say
"clone()"? I knew you could...).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:33:04 1996
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 96 05:05:53 PST."
<336.849531953@time.cdrom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:32:02 PST
From: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
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What's your routing table look like when this happens?
Bill
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:34:33 1996
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To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Routing questions
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 96 08:45:44 PST."
<199612021645.JAA28732@rocky.mt.sri.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:33:31 PST
From: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
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In message <199612021645.JAA28732@rocky.mt.sri.com> you write:
>However, how does his home router box know how to route packets from his
>internal ethernet vs. over the PPP line to our office ethernet?
ARP_PROXYALL?
Bill
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:37:46 1996
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To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff in netstat -r
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 96 09:48:06 PST."
<199612021748.SAA02955@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:35:51 PST
From: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
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In message <199612021748.SAA02955@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> you write:
>This is obviously the broadcast address. What makes me think is that
>I see this only on that one machine (running samba/WINS, BTW).
Is that the only machine that has sent a broadcast recently?
Is that the only machine with an if_ether.c newer than rev 1.27
(Feb. 5, 1996)?
I think this is probably to be expected.
Bill
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:39:16 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:39:02 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199612021939.MAA29525@rocky.mt.sri.com>
From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Routing questions
In-Reply-To: <96Dec2.113339pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com>
References: <199612021645.JAA28732@rocky.mt.sri.com>
<96Dec2.113339pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com>
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> In message <199612021645.JAA28732@rocky.mt.sri.com> you write:
> >However, how does his home router box know how to route packets from his
> >internal ethernet vs. over the PPP line to our office ethernet?
>
> ARP_PROXYALL?
How does that work for machines that are 'behind' another gateway?
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:42:11 1996
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Message-Id: <199612021942.MAA29564@rocky.mt.sri.com>
From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Solved! (Was Re: Routing questions)
In-Reply-To: <199612021645.JAA28732@rocky.mt.sri.com>
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Nate Williams writes:
> Background:
> I've got a block of 32 IP addresses assigned to me (a chunk out of a
> class C), and everything has been working wonderfully thanks to advice
> from folks on hackers when I set this up.
>
> Howevever, my boss now wants his own little dedicated network at home.
...
Based on feedback from Joe Greco and such, he suggested contacting my
ISP and having them assign us another block of addresses for out home
networks. I didn't think it was a 'kosher' thing to ask for, but based
on his prodding I did and I'm now the proud owner of another 32 IP
addresses, which I'll break into 4 chunks and assign to each of the
employees for their home.
It's by *far* the easiest solution, and given that we're not using
anymore bandwidth than we were paying for already the ISP was more than
willing to give us more addresses. It'll work out really well for us,
and saves on the nightmare of trying to hack around routes and such (and
I still don't have to learn about NAT).
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 11:51:40 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612021933.MAA11060@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:33:01 -0700 (MST)
Cc: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de, nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU,
freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <32A27CB2.59E2B600@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Dec 1, 96 10:52:34 pm
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> > The additonal options are needed to produce a Posix-compatible thread
> > interface that has no userlevel threads anymore. Linus claims Linux
> > syscalls are fast enough to be acceptable even in applications with
> > heavy use of locking (and therefore resheduling by the kernel).
>
> He might be correct.
> sharing memory spaces makes for a much smaller contect switch.
Assuming you switch from one context in a thread group to another.
In which case, it is possible for a threaded process to starve all
other processes, depending on if its resource requests are satisfied
before all the remaining threads in the thread group have also made
blocking requests (otherwise, you are not prioritizing by being in
the thread group, and there are virtually no contex switch overhead
wins from doing the threading -- only the win that a single process
can compete for N quantums instead of 1 quantum when there are N
kernel threads in the thread group).
A good thread scheduler requires async system calls (not just I/O)
and conversion of blocking calls to non-blocking calls plus a context
switch in user space (quasi-cooperative scheduling, like SunOS 4.1.3
liblwp). This would result in a kernel thread consuming its full
quantum, potentially on several threads, before going on. One of
the consequences of this is that sleep intervals below the quantum
interval, which will work now, without a high degree of reliability,
will now be guaranteed to *not* work at all. Timing on most X games
using a select() with a timeout to run background processing, for
instance, will fail on systems that use this, unless a kernel preempt
(a "real time" interrupt) is generated as a result of time expiration,
causing the select()-held process to run at the time the event occurs,
instead of simply scheduling the process to run. This leads to buzz
loop starvation unless you limit the number of times in an interval
that you allow a process to preeempt (ie: drop virtual priority on
a process each time it preempts this way, and rest on quantum interval).
>From my reading of the Linux scheduler code, they are about the crudity
stage of the SVR4 processes -- ie: no real advantage in context switching
unless the threaded process is run on an otherwise quiescent machine.
> Once teh kernel stacks are not in the user space
> (they might already be gone by now I haven't looked.. SMP needs it too
> I think) then the way is clear for this...
Topologically, kernel preemption and SMP are quite similar. The only
real difference is that SMP requires mutex'es to cross memory synchronization
domains, whereas kernel preemption (for RT scheduling and/or RT timer
events) only requires semaphores (on a UP system).
It's all a matter of scheduling granularity, and deciding what context
can and can't be lazy-bound.
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 12:14:59 1996
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To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Routing questions
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 96 11:39:02 PST."
<199612021939.MAA29525@rocky.mt.sri.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:13:57 PST
From: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
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Router A has ed0, on the office net, and ppp0, to router B.
Router B has ed0, on the home net, and ppp0, to router A.
Router A has proxy-arp entries for all hosts on the home net, and a
route for all those pointing to its ppp0. Router B has routes for
all hosts that aren't on the home net pointing to its ppp0, and
ARP_PROXYALL.
(This is just a guess =)
If some of the hosts on the home net are mobile, then router A has
to be able to dynamically delete its proxy entry. (Although due to
a subtle bug, I think that the proxy entry will be modified to have
the machine's real address when you turn it on on the office net,
so the real requirement is for A to dynamically re-establish the
right proxy entry when the host leaves the office net).
Bill
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 12:34:13 1996
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <199612022032.OAA25017@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: Solved! (Was Re: Routing questions)
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:32:44 -0600 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612021942.MAA29564@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Dec 2, 96 12:42:03 pm
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> Nate Williams writes:
> > Background:
> > I've got a block of 32 IP addresses assigned to me (a chunk out of a
> > class C), and everything has been working wonderfully thanks to advice
> > from folks on hackers when I set this up.
> >
> > Howevever, my boss now wants his own little dedicated network at home.
> ...
>
> Based on feedback from Joe Greco and such, he suggested contacting my
> ISP and having them assign us another block of addresses for out home
> networks. I didn't think it was a 'kosher' thing to ask for, but based
> on his prodding I did and I'm now the proud owner of another 32 IP
> addresses, which I'll break into 4 chunks and assign to each of the
> employees for their home.
>
> It's by *far* the easiest solution, and given that we're not using
> anymore bandwidth than we were paying for already the ISP was more than
> willing to give us more addresses. It'll work out really well for us,
> and saves on the nightmare of trying to hack around routes and such (and
> I still don't have to learn about NAT).
Oh, hooray :-) You will be delighted at how it tends to simplify things.
A Novell guy I work with sometimes keeps asking me why I am so hot on
giving people real address space. I admit that there are a lot of
products (and ways) out there to do NAT-like or single-IP Internet
access solutions, but when it comes down to it, nothing is quite as
flexible as real IP.
And when you have to go to a customer's site to fix a problem, nothing
is as irritating as finding some hokey mucked up solution for doing
NAT type things.
In the long run, with IPv6, I hope that address space is not a problem.
... JG
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 12:41:32 1996
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <199612022040.OAA25048@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: cyclades PCI driver doesn't detect carrier drop
To: dg@root.com
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:40:36 -0600 (CST)
Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, proff@suburbia.net,
freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612021914.LAA06655@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Dec 2, 96 11:14:11 am
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> >> >Whois the best person to conectact about this? -
> >> >Very trying to say the least ;)
> >>
> >> Are you sure that this isn't operator error? You do have hupcl & -clocal
> >> for your ports, right? Note that the device names changed and thus your
> >> /etc/rc.serial may be out of date...or perhaps you don't even have entries
> >> in there to set the initial state?
> >
> >Are you still supposed to have to do this?
> >
> >I don't see references to it in /etc/rc.serial.
>
> Only if you want to change the settings from the defaults.
I would expect hupcl and -clocal to be defaults for modem lines. :-)
... JG
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 12:42:39 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:42:24 -0800
From: "Jin Guojun[ITG]" <jin@george.lbl.gov>
Message-Id: <199612022042.MAA28760@george.lbl.gov>
To: bugs@freebsd.org
Subject: LKM issues
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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I remember that someone said that the LKM does not work for character device,
but the message seems not saying why.
I traced the code and found one problem:
(1) _lkm_dev(lkmtp, cmd) did not do any thing for LM_DT_CHAR,
switch(cmd) {
case LKM_E_LOAD:
/* don't load twice! */
if (lkmexists(lkmtp))
return(EEXIST);
switch(args->lkm_devtype) {
...
case LM_DT_CHAR:
break;
...
so that unload a loaded character device driver will crash at (!!!):
case LKM_E_UNLOAD:
/* current slot... */
i = args->lkm_offset;
switch(args->lkm_devtype) {
...
case LM_DT_CHAR:
/* replace current slot contents with old contents */
!!! cdevsw_add(&descrip, args->lkm_olddev.cdev,NULL);
break;
... }
-----------------------------------------------
A separated question:
Should a loadable network driver use MOD_MISC(name)?
It seems there is a LM_STRMOD slot, but no MOD_STR(...) exists.
Should the MOD_STR() be used for network driver ? or will it be used for
something else?
Thanks,
-Jin
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 12:51:55 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612022030.NAA11212@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:30:59 -0700 (MST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <57ybfht82i.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> from "Paul Richards" at Dec 2, 96 01:00:21 pm
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> > > Argh! Aren't there _any_ decent, simple, text windowing libraries out
> > > there?
> >
> > It sure wouldn't seem like it, no... :-(
>
> Hmm, I think we've been here before :-)
wksh. Someone needs to implement it; it's needed for UNIX cerification
anyway.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 13:02:31 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:02:34 -0700 (MST)
From: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@glacier.cold.org>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Turning off DTR?
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.961202135913.13954A-100000@glacier.cold.org>
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I'm working on writing up a software package for a VISA POS port server in
unix--I have a question, is it possible to turn off DTR capability on the
serial device? The VISA POS port doesn't want it--and using a standard
serial cable causes problems. Using a custom serial cable that drops the
DTR pin works fine--but is not the greatest solution..
Anybody?
-Brandon Gillespie
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 13:03:28 1996
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From: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
Message-Id: <199612022102.OAA07802@hemi.com>
Subject: Re: Lex/Yacc question
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:02:07 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612021835.LAA10927@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Dec 2, 96 11:35:37 am
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> > You can also avoid states if you want to... for example, in your rfc821.l:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > | command: /* nothing*/
> > | | command incomplete_helo
> > | | command helo_command
> > | { yyerrok; }
> > | ;
>
> [ ... ]
>
> I found in implementation for an interactive parser, this tends to fail.
>
> Specifically, using the "-i" option to get a case insensitive parser
> (instead of specifying [Hh][Ee][Ll][Oo]) results in your string that
> you assemble from '.' returns coming back case converted.
>
> I actually though this was bad from several perspectives, [...]
=-) Probably getting far off topic from -hackers now. In any case,
I tested my quicky implementation and it does *not* convert the
input case, regardless of using the '-l' "lex compatibility flag".
(And I do use -i, otherwise those regexes look very ugly very fast!)
I do have some additional rules to handle things like empty lines,
syntax errors, etc.
| mail FROM : <Ade.BARKAH@Barkah.ORG>
| 250 <Ade.BARKAH@Barkah.ORG>... Sender ok
Converting the case would violate even rfc821, since many mail
systems are case sensitive. If I'm not too busy with real work
I'll finish up a minimal rfc821 implementation later today.
Regards,
-Ade
[ps: We're probably going to sell a standalone email-to-paging
gateway with FreeBSD as its host OS. If we actually sell them,
I plan that a portion of the each sale would be donated back to
FreeBSD.]
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199612022036.VAA00342@yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: Racal Interlan ethernet card: any good?
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:36:08 +0100 (MET)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, se@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199612011613.RAA14412@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Dec 1, 96 05:13:32 pm
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As J Wunsch wrote...
> As Stefan Esser wrote:
>
> > No experience, but it should be supported by the lnc driver.
> > I added the Lance PCI probe code to -current half a year ago,
> > and got no complaints (which means it works or isn't used :)
> >
> > You need a config line for "lnc0 at isa?", and the PCI card
> > will then be "lnc1" (the later ISA probe could still find an
> > ISA card at the port address specified).
>
> Does the line
>
> device lnc0 at isa? port 0x280 net irq 10 drq 0 vector lncintr
>
> in GENERIC count for this? If so, i'll leave for a business trip
> tomorrow, and i know that this customer is also using HP Vectras which
> come with a builtin Lance-derived PCI ethernet adaptor. While i know
> that an older version of FreeBSD runs on them fine using the PCI
> addresses in the ISA driver (you certainly remember, Stefan), i can
> also stick a plain installation floppy there and see whether it will
> detect the card.
The Racal did not smoke-test the test box so I decided to give it a try
in my 215R home machine. Data from a boot -v (see >> for some remarks):
Dec 2 21:15:24 yedi /kernel: pcibus_setup(1): mode1res=0x80000000
(0x80000000), mode2res=0xff (0x0e)
Dec 2 21:15:24 yedi /kernel: pcibus_setup(2): mode1res=0x80000000
(0x80000000)
Dec 2 21:15:24 yedi /kernel: pcibus_check: device 0 is there
(id=122d8086)
Dec 2 21:15:24 yedi /kernel: Probing for devices on PCI bus 0:
Dec 2 21:15:24 yedi /kernel: configuration mode 1 allows 32 devices.
Dec 2 21:15:24 yedi /kernel: chip0 <Intel 82437 PCI cache memory
controller> rev 2 on pci0:0
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: CPU Inactivity timer: clocks
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Peer Concurrency: enabled
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: CPU-to-PCI Write Bursting: enabled
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: PCI Streaming: enabled
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Bus Concurrency: enabled
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Cache: 256K pipelined-burst secondary; L1
enabled
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: DRAM: no memory hole, 66 MHz refresh
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Read burst timing: x-2-2-2/x-3-3-3
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Write burst timing: x-3-3-3
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: RAS-CAS delay: 3 clocks
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: chip1 <Intel 82371 PCI-ISA bridge> rev 2 on
pci0:7:0
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: I/O Recovery Timing: 8-bit 1 clocks, 16-bit
1 clocks
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Extended BIOS: disabled
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Lower BIOS: enabled
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Coprocessor IRQ13: enabled
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Mouse IRQ12: disabled
Dec 2 21:15:25 yedi /kernel: Interrupt Routing: A: disabled, B: IRQ11, C:
IRQ12, D: IRQ9
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: MB0: disabled, MB1: disabled
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: chip2 <Intel 82371 Bus-master IDE controller>
rev 2 on pci0:7:1
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: mapreg[20] type=1 addr=0000e800 size=0010.
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: I/O Base Address: %#lx
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: Primary IDE: disabled
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: Secondary IDE: disabled
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: pci0:9: AMD, device=0x2000, class=network
(ethernet) int a irq 9 [no driver assigned]
>> Yep, it did see the card. But it sez: no driver assigned
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: map(10): io(e400)
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: ncr0 <ncr 53c810 scsi> rev 2 int a irq 12 on
pci0:10
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: mapreg[10] type=1 addr=0000e000 size=0100.
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: mapreg[14] type=0 addr=fbfe0000 size=0100.
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: reg20: virtual=0xf4950000
physical=0xfbfe0000 size=0x100
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: ncr0: restart (scsi reset).
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: ncr0 scanning for targets 0..6 (V2 pl23
95/09/07)
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: Choosing drivers for scbus configured at 0
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: (ncr0:0:0): "DEC RZ28 (C) DEC 442C" type 0
fixed SCSI 2
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: sd is configured at 0
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: sd0(ncr0:0:0): Direct-Access
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: sd0(ncr0:0:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec)
offset 8.
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: 2007MB (4110480 512 byte sectors)
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: sd0(ncr0:0:0): with 3045 cyls, 16 heads, and
an average 84 sectors/track
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: (ncr0:3:0): "TANDBERG TDC 4200 00A1" type 1
removable SCSI 2
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: st is configured at 0
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: st0(ncr0:3:0): Sequential-Access
Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: st0(ncr0:3:0): asynchronous.
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel:
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: st0(ncr0:3:0): asynchronous.
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: density code 0x0, drive empty
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: (ncr0:4:0): "TOSHIBA CD-ROM XM-5301TA 0925"
type 5 removable SCSI 2
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: cd is configured at 0
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: cd0(ncr0:4:0): CD-ROM
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: cd0(ncr0:4:0): 250ns (4 Mb/sec) offset 8.
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel:
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: cd0(ncr0:4:0): NOT READY asc:4,1
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: cd0(ncr0:4:0): Logical unit is in process of
becoming ready
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: can't get the size
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel:
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: ncr1 <ncr 53c810 scsi> rev 2 int a irq 11 on
pci0:11
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: mapreg[10] type=1 addr=0000d800 size=0100.
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: mapreg[14] type=0 addr=fbfd0000 size=0100.
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: reg20: virtual=0xf4953000
physical=0xfbfd0000 size=0x100
Dec 2 21:15:27 yedi /kernel: ncr1: restart (scsi reset).
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: ncr1 scanning for targets 0..6 (V2 pl23
95/09/07)
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: Choosing drivers for scbus configured at 1
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: vga0 <VGA-compatible display device> rev 1 on
pci0:12
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: mapreg[10] type=0 addr=fb000000 size=800000.
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: pci0: uses 8389120 bytes of memory from
fb000000 upto fbfe00ff.
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: pci0: uses 528 bytes of I/O space from d800
upto e80f.
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: Probing for devices on the ISA bus:
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles,
flags=0x0>
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: ed0 at 0x300-0x31f irq 10 on isa
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: ed0: address 00:00:24:06:32:56, type NE2000
(16 bit)
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: bpf: ed0 attached
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio0: probe test 3 failed
>> The sio's are no longer probed correctly (there's 2 of the onboard
(Asus), and 4 on a AST/4 card). This only happens when the Racal is in
the machine, rest unchanged.
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio0 not found at 0x3f8
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio1 not found at 0x2f8
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio2 not found at 0x1a0
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio3 not found at 0x1a8
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio4 not found at 0x1b0
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio5 not found at 0x1b8
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: si0 not found
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: lpt0: Interrupt-driven port
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: lp0: TCP/IP capable interface
Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: bpf: lp0 attached
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: fdc0: NEC 72065B
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: fd1: 1.2MB 5.25in
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: npx0 on motherboard
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: npx0: INT 16 interface
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: lnc0 not found
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: Device configuration finished.
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: Considering FFS root f/s.
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: changing root device to sd0a
Dec 2 21:15:29 yedi /kernel: Configuring root and swap devs.
I now have another PCI ethernet card in the box. Before someone asks:
going to -current on this machine is not an option (it's my 'production'
machine and my test box != PCI). And I also don't want to mess around
with the hardware too much.
Stefan: if you want to borrow the Racal I can mail 'm to you. If you
want me to do so email me a shipping address.
Wilko
_ ____________________________________________________________________
| / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands
|/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 13:06:36 1996
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Organization: Privat Site running FreeBSD
References: <199612011453.VAA01074@werty.wasantara.net.id>
From: shanee@rabbit.augusta.de (Andreas Kohout)
Subject: Re: xview error ?!?!
X-Original-Newsgroups: muc.lists.freebsd.hackers
In-Reply-To: <199612011453.VAA01074@werty.wasantara.net.id>
To: hackers@freebsd.org, eka@werty.wasantara.net.id
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In article <199612011453.VAA01074@werty.wasantara.net.id>,
eka@werty.wasantara.net.id (Eka Kelana) writes:
> I got several error messages like this when compiling my xview program:
>
> ... undefined symbol '_cfree' referenced from text segment ...
man cfree :-)
add -lcompat (and install libcompat from cdrom, for example)
--
Greeting, Andy
running FreeBSD-current
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 13:26:36 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:25:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Green <green@fang.cs.sunyit.edu>
Message-Id: <199612022125.QAA28117@fang.cs.sunyit.edu>
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: moused and cut & paste
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OK, I've spent half the day playing with this. How do I get the
console mouse/cut & paste to work on FreeBSD 2.2-961014? I've ran moused in
debug mode and it is corectly tracking all the mouse movements. What do I need
to do?
--
Charles Green, PRC Inc.
Rome Laboratory, NY
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 13:44:36 1996
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Subject: Re: moused and cut & paste
To: green@fang.cs.sunyit.edu (Charles Green)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:46:36 +0100 (MET)
From: "Soren Schmidt" <sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612022125.QAA28117@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> from "Charles Green" at Dec 2, 96 04:25:58 pm
From: sos@FreeBSD.org
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In reply to Charles Green who wrote:
>
>
> OK, I've spent half the day playing with this. How do I get the
> console mouse/cut & paste to work on FreeBSD 2.2-961014? I've ran moused in
> debug mode and it is corectly tracking all the mouse movements. What do I need
> to do?
Enable moused (you already seem to have that part), and then use
vidcontrol -m on to turn on the mousepointer.
Remember this only works on VGA's...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team
Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 13:47:09 1996
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, jehamby@lightside.com,
hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 01 Dec 1996 16:28:23 PST."
<5015.849486503@time.cdrom.com>
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:35:31 +0000
From: Matt Thomas <matt@lkg.dec.com>
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> > 3) Supported by a large group of vendors, second only to Intel
> > processors. Alpha is supported by... well... DEC.
>
> True enough, though I'm slightly surprised that they've no second
> sources lined up by now. Don't most govn't contracts outright
> *require* the presence of a second source before they'll sign a check?
> You'd think that DEC would have at least played enough of the
> game to get someone like Fujitsu lined up as a second source.
Mitsubishi and Samsung are second sources of the Alpha chip.
http://www.samsung.co.kr/news/mpus.html
--
Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com
3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html
Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 14:19:15 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:19:24 +1100 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-Reply-To: <336.849531953@time.cdrom.com>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> I kept hoping that this was just me somehow, but after looking and
> looking for some sort of misconfiguration and still banging into this
> one, I thought I'd finally ask.
>
> I have a gateway machine with an SMC8216 ethernet card in it and an
> ISDN TA hanging off a standard 16550 serial port. It works just
> peachy, 99.9% of the time, except after I've really exercised it in
> some way (seems to happen most frequently after a make world though
> this could just be the sheerest coincidence). The symptom is that
> it's suddenly unable to talk to its SLIP interface directly, e.g.:
>
> root@whisker-> ifconfig -a
> ..
> sl0: flags=9011<UP,POINTOPOINT,LINK0,MULTICAST> mtu 552
> inet 204.216.27.194 --> 204.216.27.193 netmask 0xfffffff0
>
> root@whisker-> ping 204.216.27.193
> PING 204.216.27.193 (204.216.27.193): 56 data bytes
> <zilch, nada, zip>
This has happened to me. You may remember I posted a month ago about
"arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo for ..." errs. Do you get these
errors in your log file? It occurs for me only on CSLIP interfaces which
are gateways to other networks or subnets - never on a host-only cslip
link, and never on a ppp link. Are you running gated?
Danny
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 14:22:55 1996
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: "Kevin P. Neal" <kpneal@pobox.com>, hackers@freebsd.org,
davem@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 10:02:36 EST."
<3.0.32.19961202100230.00b7b890@etinc.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 14:22:32 -0800
Message-ID: <1508.849565352@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Yeah, like those FTP reported statistics are really accurate. I've seen
> physically impossible numbers.......
Uh.. Which FTP reported statistics are you referring to?
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 14:29:28 1996
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From: Archie Cobbs <archie@whistle.com>
Message-Id: <199612022228.OAA19080@bubba.whistle.com>
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-Reply-To: <336.849531953@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 2, 96 05:05:53 am"
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:28:28 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
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> I have a gateway machine with an SMC8216 ethernet card in it and an
> ISDN TA hanging off a standard 16550 serial port. It works just
> peachy, 99.9% of the time, except after I've really exercised it in
> some way (seems to happen most frequently after a make world though
> this could just be the sheerest coincidence). The symptom is that
> it's suddenly unable to talk to its SLIP interface directly, e.g.:
>
> root@whisker-> ifconfig -a
> ..
> sl0: flags=9011<UP,POINTOPOINT,LINK0,MULTICAST> mtu 552
> inet 204.216.27.194 --> 204.216.27.193 netmask 0xfffffff0
>
> root@whisker-> ping 204.216.27.193
> PING 204.216.27.193 (204.216.27.193): 56 data bytes
> <zilch, nada, zip>
>
> The weirder thing is that it still functions just great as a gateway.
> On another machine, which it talks to (just fine) through its ethernet
> interface, I can say:
>
> jkh@time-> ping 204.216.27.193
> PING 204.216.27.193 (204.216.27.193): 56 data bytes
> 64 bytes from 204.216.27.193: icmp_seq=0 ttl=254 time=113.731 ms
>
> No problem. This is going, after one hop, out the very same SLIP
> interface that whisker refused to talk to in the previous example.
I'd guess it's an ARP problem, possibly on the remote end of the
link (since you're using proxy arp there .. correct?).
More generally, one or the other side has lost a route I bet.
-Archie
___________________________________________________________________________
Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 14:35:39 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:35:40 +1100 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Routing questions
In-Reply-To: <199612021645.JAA28732@rocky.mt.sri.com>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Nate Williams wrote:
> Background:
> I've got a block of 32 IP addresses assigned to me (a chunk out of a
> class C), and everything has been working wonderfully thanks to advice
> from folks on hackers when I set this up.
>
> I've thought of two solutions, and the first is so ugly I'm not even
> sure it's doable. Basically, I would create host routes to all of his
> machines on my 'gateway' box that point to his home-router box.
> However, how does his home router box know how to route packets from his
> internal ethernet vs. over the PPP line to our office ethernet? There
> is also the problem of the portable boxes needing two separate ethernet
> addresses (or a scrip that deletes the host routes), one for home and
> one for the office.
Allocate a block of 8 IP addresses to your boss. On the office gw, arp
-s the IPs onto the ethernet interface so the office machines know where
your boss is. The office machines continue to use netmask 0xfffffe00. The
boss's machines use 0xfffffff8, so they know where the rest of the office is.
> The other solution is to do some sort of address munging on my gateway
> box. Basically, I'd assign him one of the RFC 1918 networks, and then
> have a mapping of 'fake' IP to 'real' IP address on my gateway box.
> This would seem to be a fairly common 'firewall' type of job, but I'm
> not familiar if such code exists for FreeBSD, or if someone has a better
> solution.
Darren Reed's ipfilter has NAT code. <http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~avalon/>.
I've found the NAT code leaks in kmem under 2.1.0 and 2.1.5. I made an
ugly home-brew fix for it, and I've told Darren. I have had no word from
Darren as to what he has done about it, or if he can reproduce it.
Danny
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 15:10:20 1996
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Message-Id: <199612022310.PAA00647@austin.polstra.com>
To: Chris Shenton <cshenton@it.hq.nasa.gov>
cc: cvsup-bugs@polstra.com, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: cvsup vs. FreeBSD-2.1.6.1: can't find libc.so.3.0
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 11:33:12 EST."
<199612021633.QAA05345@wirehead.it.hq.nasa.gov>
References: <199612021633.QAA05345@wirehead.it.hq.nasa.gov>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 15:10:09 -0800
From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
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> I downloaded the package and added it, it wanted a couple libraries I
> didn't have so I added them: libz I think. Now it's still unhappy
> about not finding libc.so.3.0, so I lose.
>
> I've just supped and built FreeBSD-2.1.6.1-RELEASE; do I need to be
> running -CURRENT or some other version to get the facilities cvsup
> requires?
All packages are built to run under -current, which means they need
libc.so.3.0. So yes, technically, you need -current. But not really.
There are a couple of things you could do.
The best solution, since you have already installed the Modula-3
compiler, is to get the cvsup _port_ and build it from the sources.
Then it will depend on the version of libc that actually exists on your
system (libc.so.2.2). This solution will also get rid of the warnings
about your X11R6 libraries.
As another option, it should also work to add a symbolic link:
/usr/local/lib/m3/FreeBSD2/libc.so.3.0 -> /usr/lib/libc.so.2.2
and then do "ldconfig -m /usr/local/lib/m3/FreeBSD2". This is cheating
a little bit, but it should work fine.
Finally, you could fetch the static binary release from
freefall.freebsd.org in "/pub/CVSup/cvsup-bin-13.5.tar.gz". It doesn't
use any shared libraries at all.
BTW, libz is included in FreeBSD-2.1.6.1-RELEASE; it shouldn't have been
missing after you installed that version.
John
--
John Polstra jdp@polstra.com
John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA
"Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 15:37:03 1996
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Message-Id: <199612022336.PAA00788@austin.polstra.com>
To: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (Andrey A.
Chernov) <ache@nagual.ru>
cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: cvsup can't find host - sometimes
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:27:07 +0300."
<199612021027.NAA00901@nagual.ru>
References: <199612021027.NAA00901@nagual.ru>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 15:36:04 -0800
From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
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> I don't think it is gethostbyname() fail, because everything else
> find it immediately because whole *.freebsd.org cached by my named
> as secondary. Maybe modula soemhow resets intial network search
> sleep (cause it immediately expired?)
It could possibly be something like that. I am thinking it might be
connected with the multithreading support. The code disables thread
switching before it enters gethostbyname, so it's definitely not that
gethostbyname is being re-entered. (Only one of the threads calls it,
anyway.)
But, the threads library uses SIGVTALRM to do preemption of
compute-bound threads. Perhaps that signal is being delivered within
the resolver code, and causing a problem. Again, I don't _think_ it
should cause a problem, but it's the only idea I have. The handler for
the signal will simply return without doing anything (because thread
switching is disabled). If the signal comes in during a system call,
the system call should resume. Even if the system call doesn't resume,
the resolver code handles EINTR alright, as far as I can tell.
If it starts failing again, could you try to capture a ktrace of it?
Thanks,
John
--
John Polstra jdp@polstra.com
John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA
"Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 15:49:12 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:19:31 +0100
From: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de>
Message-Id: <199612022319.AAA00812@campa.panke.de>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
In-Reply-To: <199612021841.LAA10946@phaeton.artisoft.com>
References: <199612021141.MAA00264@campa.panke.de>
<199612021841.LAA10946@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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Terry Lambert writes:
>The problem is purely in the mailbox storage interface.
Yes, and the question is which hack for badly written mail
clients has fewer side effects?
1) ">From " destroy LaTeX documents
2) " From " is harmless, because most parser ignore spaces
3) quoted-printable does not hurt the mail body
>The "From:" -> ">From:" conversion is a convenience for bad mailbox
>storage formats for evil MUA's which expect to access the mail through
>direct access to the mailbox, and then bogusly use the "From:" to demark
>message boundries.
No, the conversion is from "\nFrom " to "\n>From ", whithout colon.
Simple test:
# conversion
$ echo From fusel | mail terry@lambert.org
# no conversion
$ (echo alohol;echo From fusel) | mail terry@lambert.org
$ echo From: fusel | mail terry@lambert.org
Wolfram
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 16:14:44 1996
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From: Tony Sterrett <tony@nlanr.net>
Message-Id: <199612030014.QAA15245@nlanr.net>
Subject: Driver help
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:14:35 -0800 (PST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*]
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How does one address the u for a driver. I have the code
which copies into the u area but how do I declare it.
Tony
{
dev_t base;
struct cdevsw *cdev;
while (u.u_count)
{
if (copyout (&testmsg[u.u_offset % sizeof (testmsg)],
u.u_base,1) == -1)
{
u.u_error = EFAULT;
return;
}
u.u_base++;
u.u_count++;
u.u_offset++;
}
}
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 16:26:29 1996
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
Message-Id: <199612030026.QAA23882@freefall.freebsd.org>
Subject: EurOpen.SE: FreeBSD Presentation, trip report
To: freebsd-hackers, freebsd-chat
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:26:27 -0800 (PST)
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This is a (belated) trip report of my FreeBSD presentation at
EurOpen.SE. There are several sections. The first does the
"reporter's questions": who?, where?, when?, and what?. The
second are some observations on making presentations. And the
final section approximates some of my spoken remarks.
The slides from the presentation are available on freefall.
ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/pub/incoming/sweden.slides.ps
=================================================================
On October 24th and 25th, EurOpen.SE (the Swedish
National Unix Users' Group) held its annual conference. The
topic for discussion was "Free Unix as your Internet Server --
the best alternative?". The conference was held at the Grand
Hotel Saltsjobaden, located approximately 15 miles east of
Stockholm, Sweden. Fifty-three people attended the conference,
mainly from commercial companies rather than universities or
not-for-profit organizations. Attendees included two people from
The United States Information Service based at the US embassy in
Stockholm and two from the Swedish Department of Defense. Bjorn
Olofsson of the Lulea Universitet, site of the FreeBSD mirror in
Sweden, also attended.
The program included speakers representing FreeBSD,
NetBSD, BSDI, Linux (two presentations, one on Debian and the
other on RedHat/Slackware/Yggdrsil), SCO, Sun, Microsoft, and
Tele2/Swipnet (the largest network access provider in Sweden).
Each speaker had a 90 minute time slot. The Microsoft
representative was ill and was not able to participate. His time
was divided among myself speaking about the Hint benchmark
(http://www.scl.ameslab.gov/scl/HINT/HINT.html), the Debian Linux
speaker, Lars Wirzenius speaking about the Linux release
mechanism and Magnus Redin of Signum Support AB speaking in
Swedish.
The first speaker was Olle Wallner of Tele2/Swipnet.
Fortunately, I was the second speaker, so the audience was still
fresh and mine was the first Unix talk. This is a tremendous
advantage, all the other Unix speakers were forced to distinguish
their product from FreeBSD. Hence, we received a lot of
unexpected publicity as each speaker in turn mentioned their
differences relative to FreeBSD.
I stressed three characteristics of FreeBSD above all
else: Networking Performance, Stability, and Support for the user
community. The presentation addressed a range of issues. Due to
the 90 minute time limit, several issues were not addressed as
throughly as they deserved but rather mentioned as asides.
First, a (partial) list of issues that I did not address in
detail: laptop support, internationalization, and loadable kernel
modules.
To support our claim to networking performance, I
described the workload and hardware configuration of
wcarchive.cdrom.com. The last section contains this
information. Those of you familiar with wcarchive may wish to
skip that paragraph.
I described the attention to detail and concern for
quality that the core team and the developers of FreeBSD have
demonstrated over the last three years. Our dedication to
producing a "truly great operating system" and unwillingness to
ship code that is anything less than the best we can make, it
convinced the audience that FreeBSD is a system to be considered
for any task that may arise. After all, many of us are
professional software developers. We don't write FreeBSD to
prove anything or to feed ourselves and our families, but rather
to satisfy a desire to excel, to work in an environment
without managers that speak of profits and deadlines.
I avoided controversy and direct comparisons with other
operating systems. When directly asked about "FreeBSD vs Product
X", I replied that I had come to talk about FreeBSD and would be
glad to discuss comparisons after the talk, but not as part of
the presentation. Nonetheless, I maintained that the hardware
available to the FreeBSD user community is remarkably fast and
inexpensive, even though quality does vary greatly. One should
choose carefully and not be reluctant to spend more for better
equipment. After all, equipment from a hardware manufacturer
that ships Unix would cost far more than the hardware required by
FreeBSD. In response to a question from the audience regarding
the perceived slowness of PC clones, I allowed myself one
denigrated remark about Microsoft: "The hardware is fast and
capable, its just the popular software that......."
Now comes the hard part, talking about what I did well
without being too modest or swinging too much the other
direction. I displayed an level of enthusiasm, sincerity and
confidence regarding FreeBSD that was compelling. A number of
people came up to me after the presentation and characterized the
my work as "excellent." Indeed, one of the other speakers said
he was jealous of what I had accomplished. A number of
commericial software developers may be switching to FreeBSD.
One example is the compary that displays messages on illuminated
signs in the subway and train stations. The messages are
customized for each train when necessary. This system may be
converted to FreeBSD in all new installations.
The next paragraphs are my notes on the other operating
systems presentations.
NetBSD, Charles M. Hannum:
NetBSD has been ported to 16 platforms, some of which I have
never heard of before. The project goals are to field a complete,
stable, portable, standards based system. But there is no ports tree
or ports/packages mechanism. The only sections of source code that
contain machine dependencies are limited portions of libc and the
kernel. NetBSD sees itself a the follow-on the the Computer Science
Research Group (CSRG) of the University of California at Berkeley. As
such, they intend to provide improvements in the quality of the code,
and the level of abstraction in the code, as well as create THE
reference BSD implementation. Charles provided a list of NetBSD
firsts, such as the first BSD Unix on to support shared libraries.
NetBSD provides binary compatibility for BSDI, FreeBSD, HP-UX,
Interactive, Linux, SCO and others. Their plan it make one release a
year; the release engineering so too complex given their number of
platforms to prepare releases more frequently. NetBSD is made up of a
core team and portmasters. The core team has the same functions as
ours and the portmasters are responisble for applications (which does
not jive well with the statement that there is not ports/packages
mechanism, but such are my notes)
The next big step for NetBSD is to move the kernel to a
synchronous thread model. Each interrupt will have its own thread.
The goal is to make the kernel much more like programming any
multi-threaded program rather than the upper/lower model that we have
now. Additional goals are: SMP, journaling on file systems (not the
same as logfs), ELF, and kernel support of user threads.
Debian Linux, Lars Wirzenius:
Linux is one kernel, but many distributions and a least a
couple C libraries. The kernel is controlled by Linus Torvalds but
the distributions are independent efforts, each is structured as the
distributor sees fit. Linux now has a unified buffer cache and
virtual memory system. Linux is available for x86, dec alpha, sparc
and mc68k, but only the x86 version is stable. Linux has replaced
fork(2) with the system call clone(2), the Linux version of fork(2) is
actually a wrapper around clone(2). clone(2) allows selective sharing
of resources between the parent and child processes.
Linux has one release a year, but allows complete access to
the development code. The majority of people run the development
code rather than any official release. Debian is very proud of its
package system, which is quite powerful. It recognized a number of
dependency levels, from "must-have" to "suggested" additions to the
package that is being installed.
BSDI, Peter Hakansson of Volvo, Data Department:
Peter spoke in Swedish and so I understood very little of his
presentation. The presentation was low key, so low key that at times
I could not hear him. I sat at the back of the room.
SCO, David Gurr of SCO Great Britain:
SCO is moving to a 64-bit architecture, the Gemini chip, also
known as the P7. This chip is a joint development effort of Intel
and Hewlett-Packard. SCO supports clustering of workstations as a
method of providing reliability. SCO feels that it owns the
point-of-sale market and plans to expand its presence in this area.
SCO wishes to push of a unified Unix, now that SCO is receiving
royalties from all SVR4 and SVR3 versions of Unix, except Sun, they
feel that they are in a position to "strongly encourage" others to move
with them "as to what is and what is not" Unix.
The presentation was done in PowerPoint and presented using a
laptop computer and a projector gizmo that plugged into the external
video DB-15 connector of the laptop. The result was aesthetically
unappealing--just too dark to read easily.
RedHat/Slackware/Yggdrsil, Magnus Redin of Signum Support AB:
Spoke in Swedish. Slides handwritten on location. I have no
idea what he said ;(
Sun Microsystems:
Also in Swedish, again I did not understand enough to comment.
Microsoft:
The Microsoft representative fell ill and was not able to
come to the conference to make his presentation. This opened up
a 90 minute hole in the schedule for the afternoon of the second
day, October 25th. The hole had to be filled. The summary panel
discussion was scheduled for 4:00pm and the representative of
Tele2/Swipnet would not return until then.
General comments on Swedes, the hotel and other things:
The accommodations were excellent. Those of you who have not
stayed in a first-rate European hotel should find the opportunity to
do so. No hotel that I know of in the United States compares. One
example, the bathroom towel racks have an internal heating
element--before stepping into the shower, turn on the heater and the
thick, plush towels are wonderfully warm by the time that you finish
showering. The Swedes are a tall people, average of six foot, 180 cm,
and so all the furniture and fixtures are sized accordingly. My feet
did not hang off the end of the bed ;).
The Grand Hotel at Saltzjobaden is a large stately
structure, situated on the water with a comfortable marina and
beautiful island just offshore. There is a small bridge to the
island. Access to Stockholm from the Baltic Sea is impeded by
the largest archipelago in Europe. A wonderful place to sail and
gunk-hole. (gunk-hole: to sail from one anchorage to another
each day doing a little fishing, touring and bird watching along
the way....sorta ;)
Swedes study English, both written and spoken, in school from
the third grade till 12th. The audience was very comfortable speaking
in and listening to English (Thank goodness given my facility in
Swedish. Vowels are different from English. An umlaut-o is not the
same as a plain `o'. This is important when looking for a hotel
located on the square called H<umlaut-o>rtoget in Stockholm.
Substituting a regular `o' is a very different word ;) Needless to
say, I spoke in English.
=================================================================
Some general notes on making presentations: practice, out
loud, in front of people, repeatedly. Know your material cold.
Have a set of anecdotes that you can use to enliven the
presentation and bring them out as needed. Don't try to cover
everything, the presentation becomes either a laundry list or
confusing swirl of items. Pick a theme and stick with it; return
to the theme several times. Get the first presentation slot or at
least the first slot of the second day. The first slot after
lunch is tough; the second slot is a disaster. People that are
digesting are prone to fall asleep in the middle of your talk.
Eat lightly before speaking, but only lightly, not foods that are
high in refined sugar content. Take a glass of water up to the
podium. Speaking for 90 minutes without water will reduce your
voice to a hoarse croak. (I did remember to take a glass of
water with me.)
Print out the notes along with the slides using the
article format of the LaTeX seminar package. That way the notes
are easier to use (both the slide and my notes are visible at the
same time.) Highlight (either in color marker or some other
highly visible manner) those items that are most important to
discuss for each slide. Before beginning the seque into the next
slide, take several seconds to review those points and make sure
that each one has been addressed.
=================================================================
The following paragraphs are an approximation of what i actually
said to the audience on several issues: network performance,
stability, and user support. These paragraphs are not
exhaustive, rather indicative.
This ftp/http server provides 70GB of data to the
Internet, day in and day out. Its record day was 115GB. That
averages 2.5 Megabytes/second during the day and 1.3
Megabytes/second all night long. During that 24 hour period, the
run queue never exceeded 3.00 and interactive response on the
console was snappy. The machine's output is limited by the
ability of the Internet to accept data.
US West, one of the baby bells, has chosen FreeBSD as the
operating system to use in their Internet Service Provider
business segment called !nterprise. US West, a $10 Billion
dollar company with more than $1.2 Billion in profit, chose
FreeBSD because of its stability. Due to the regulations that
govern telephone companies, US West is forced to create a
significant number of server sites. There are three sites in
Minnesota alone. Each site has two machines, one provides news,
the other does everything else. Many sites are "dark sites." No
one is there to attend to reboot a crashed computer. The
machines *must* stay up, otherwise someone will have to travel to
the site to reboot the box. Flying into Fargo, North Dakota in
February is not fun.
FreeBSD maintains the principle of "least surprise" for
our users. For example, shared libraries are phased out slowly,
rather than disappearing suddenly with the next release. TCP/IP
extensions can be enabled or disable easily by editing
/etc/sysconfig. Using CVS, we can retrieve from the source code
repository the code same code that any FreeBSD is using. Users
often receive answers to their questions within 30 minutes from
the time that they send mail to the FreeBSD mailing lists. No
trouble tickets. No 800 numbers. Just answers.
Should you ever find a problem with FreeBSD, please use
send-pr(1) to send a problem report to us. These problem reports
are logged in a database and retained until resolved. Problems
that are mentioned informally in the mailing lists may be lost or
remain unresolved. The mailing lists are not a substitute for
the send-pr(1) command and the GNATS problem reporting and
tracking system.
=================================================================
jmb
--
Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG
FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/
PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 16:29:52 1996
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To: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 11:32:02 PST."
<96Dec2.113208pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 16:29:46 -0800
Message-ID: <1887.849572986@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> What's your routing table look like when this happens?
>
> Bill
Pretty much normal - my default route is there along with the usual
host routes for the machines on my physical ethernet. When I
completely flush the table and add back the default route, there is
also no change in behavior. One thing I found last night which worked
was to kill slattach and restart the link - then my sl0 behaved
normally again. I don't need to completely reboot, simply reset the
connection.
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 16:37:38 1996
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:30:59 MST."
<199612022030.NAA11212@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 16:35:42 -0800
Message-ID: <1944.849573342@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> wksh. Someone needs to implement it; it's needed for UNIX cerification
> anyway.
Yeah, like this will ever happen. :-)
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 16:46:01 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612030025.RAA12504@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:25:00 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <1944.849573342@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Dec 2, 96 04:35:42 pm
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> > wksh. Someone needs to implement it; it's needed for UNIX cerification
> > anyway.
>
> Yeah, like this will ever happen. :-)
Well, it certainly won't if people keep implementing "user interface library
of the day". 8-(.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 16:56:43 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612030037.RAA12565@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD.
To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfram Schneider)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:37:46 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612022319.AAA00812@campa.panke.de> from "Wolfram Schneider" at Dec 3, 96 00:19:31 am
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> >storage formats for evil MUA's which expect to access the mail through
> >direct access to the mailbox, and then bogusly use the "From:" to demark
> >message boundries.
>
> No, the conversion is from "\nFrom " to "\n>From ", whithout colon.
> Simple test:
>
> # conversion
> $ echo From fusel | mail terry@lambert.org
>
> # no conversion
> $ (echo alohol;echo From fusel) | mail terry@lambert.org
> $ echo From: fusel | mail terry@lambert.org
Hmmm... doesn't do a thing for me.
But then each mail message goes into it's own file, here.... 8-).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 16:57:19 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612030057.LAA06521@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Driver help
In-Reply-To: <199612030014.QAA15245@nlanr.net> from Tony Sterrett at "Dec 2, 96 04:14:35 pm"
To: tony@nlanr.net (Tony Sterrett)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:27:06 +1030 (CST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
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Tony Sterrett stands accused of saying:
>
> How does one address the u for a driver. I have the code
> which copies into the u area but how do I declare it.
Um, that depends on what you're trying to achieve; if you're writing the
back half of a read() routine, use uiomove(). Here's a pared version
from a driver using a ringbuffer for input.
Some notes:
- The handling for the rinbuffer split case makes this a little
harder to read.
- I've left the sleep code in on the off chance it's useful.
- It's probably not actually necessary to disable tty interrupts
while doing any of the read in this particular driver, but for
many the possibility of conflict is real.
- The comments got pruned to make this readable as a mail message
(the original is formatted for 120 columns).
- You should use uiomove because it's wise to the type of the
destination; for destinations in kernel space it will use bcopy()
rather than copyout(), and it understands fragmented destinations
(ie. readv()/writev()).
IMHO, using copyin/out in drivers is bogus in most cases.
int
mdsioread(dev_t dev, struct uio *uio, int flag)
{
MDIF *md;
int unit;
int s;
int rv = 0;
u_int hmuch;
int frag;
unit = minor(dev);
if (unit > NMDSIO) /* not configured */
return(ENXIO);
md = mdsio_unit(unit);
s = spltty();
if (rxbuflen(md) == 0) { /* no data ready, must sleep */
if (flag & IO_NDELAY) { /* can't sleep, return to caller */
splx(s);
return(EAGAIN);
}
md->state |= MD_READSLEEP; /* make it so */
rv = tsleep((caddr_t)md, PRIBIO | PCATCH, "mdsioread", 0);
md->state &= ~MD_READSLEEP; /* yawn */
}
splx(s);
if (rv) /* nonzero means interrupted? */
return(EINTR);
s = spltty(); /* lock out interference from interrupt handler */
hmuch = rxbuflen(md); /* this much is available */
if (uio->uio_resid < hmuch) /* compare with requested read size */
hmuch = uio->uio_resid; /* only want this much */
if ((md->rxtail + hmuch) > MDSIO_RXBUF) { /* buffer wrap */
frag = (md->rxtail + hmuch) - MDSIO_RXBUF; /* size of fragment */
rv = uiomove((caddr_t)(md->rxbuf + md->rxtail),/* move first frag */
frag, uio);
if (!rv) /* OK so far? */
rv = uiomove((caddr_t)md->rxbuf, /* move second frag */
(hmuch - frag), uio);
} else {
rv = uiomove((caddr_t)(md->rxbuf + md->rxtail),/* move all together */
hmuch, uio);
}
if (rv) {
debug("uiomove returned %d",rv);
} else { /* read OK, move the tail */
md->rxtail = (md->rxtail + hmuch) % MDSIO_RXBUF;
debug("OK");
}
splx(s); /* interrupts safe now */
return(rv);
}
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:00:21 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612030058.LAA06531@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-Reply-To: <199612030025.RAA12504@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Dec 2, 96 05:25:00 pm"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:28:25 +1030 (CST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk,
msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org
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Terry Lambert stands accused of saying:
> > > wksh. Someone needs to implement it; it's needed for UNIX cerification
> > > anyway.
> >
> > Yeah, like this will ever happen. :-)
>
> Well, it certainly won't if people keep implementing "user interface library
> of the day". 8-(.
This is the new name for dtksh, or just something that dtksh obsoleted?
> Terry Lambert
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:00:58 1996
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To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@freefall.freebsd.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: EurOpen.SE: FreeBSD Presentation, trip report
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 16:53:49 -0800
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:26:27 -0800 (PST)
"Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@freefall.freebsd.org> wrote:
> core team and portmasters. The core team has the same functions as
> ours and the portmasters are responisble for applications (which does
> not jive well with the statement that there is not ports/packages
> mechanism, but such are my notes)
That's almost completely wrong... The portmasters are responsible
for the individual ports of NetBSD ... NetBSD/i386, NetBSD/hp300,
NetBSD/powerpc, NetBSD/alpha, NetBSD/amiga, etc. In the NetBSD world,
`ports' has an entirely different meaning than in the FreeBSD world.
Having read Charles' slides before he presented them, I know he didn't
say that the portmasters were responsible for `applications'. There
are, however, other key developers that are responsible for various
application programs that are shipped with NetBSD (i.e. BIND, Sendmail,
dhcpd, vi, etc.)
Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:07:46 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:07:54 +1100 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-Reply-To: <1887.849572986@time.cdrom.com>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > What's your routing table look like when this happens?
> >
> > Bill
>
> Pretty much normal - my default route is there along with the usual
> host routes for the machines on my physical ethernet. When I
> completely flush the table and add back the default route, there is
> also no change in behavior. One thing I found last night which worked
> was to kill slattach and restart the link - then my sl0 behaved
> normally again. I don't need to completely reboot, simply reset the
> connection.
What is at the other end of the link? Is it also a FreeBSD box?
Danny
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:15:47 1996
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To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 09:19:24 +1100."
<Pine.BSF.3.91.961203091602.1605k-100000@panda.hilink.com.au>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:15:12 -0800
Message-ID: <6818.849575712@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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>
> This has happened to me. You may remember I posted a month ago about
> "arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo for ..." errs. Do you get these
> errors in your log file? It occurs for me only on CSLIP interfaces which
No, I don't I'm afraid.
> are gateways to other networks or subnets - never on a host-only cslip
> link, and never on a ppp link. Are you running gated?
I'm running routed -s.
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:17:44 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612030056.RAA12643@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:56:41 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk,
msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030058.LAA06531@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Dec 3, 96 11:28:25 am
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> > > > wksh. Someone needs to implement it; it's needed for UNIX cerification
> > > > anyway.
> > >
> > > Yeah, like this will ever happen. :-)
> >
> > Well, it certainly won't if people keep implementing "user interface library
> > of the day". 8-(.
>
> This is the new name for dtksh, or just something that dtksh obsoleted?
It's the same thing. "wksh" or "windowing Korn shell" is what AT&T
(the inventors) and most of the books (there is a ned one from
Prentice-Hall) call it.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:19:24 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:19:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: 2 port SMC card? Funky probe.
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I have one of those new SMC 2 port 10/100 cards, and the probe in de0
shows that it's enable the AUI/BNC ports. Since the card only has TP
ports, and no AUI/BNC ports, that's kind of a cute trick.
In any case, it doesn't seem to work. Anybody messed with it?
SNAP-961024.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:33:22 1996
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From: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
To: fenner@parc.xerox.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Message-Id: <96Dec2.173236pst.2310@tibia-235.parc.xerox.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:32:26 PST
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Does "ifconfig sl0 down; ifconfig sl0 up" help, or do you have to kill
and restart slattach?
Does "ifconfig sl0 delete; ifconfig sl0 address rmtaddr" help?
When you're experiencing the problem, what do packets going out the
line sourced from your machine look like? (e.g. tcpdump -n -i sl0 icmp;
ping somehost).
Bill
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:34:38 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:33:44 -0500
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: dyson@freebsd.org
CC: dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: <199612021630.LAA09409@dyson.iquest.net> (message from John Dyson
on Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:30:13 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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From: John Dyson <dyson@dyson.iquest.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:30:13 -0500 (EST)
I have been holding quiet until now, esp since I was one of the
culprits in the above mentioned flame-war. My take on the whole
thing is that there is always an attempt to show parity or
superiority of one party over another (ego or money thing or
whatever.) However, when comparisons are made, the context or
situation associated with the comparisons should be as fully
disclosed as possible (especially when the situation might not be
"real world" for many of the users who are attempting to compare.)
Micro-level benchmarks are not the applications that end-users
normally run and should be interpreted very carefully. Frankly,
many end-users can be fooled by looking at the micro-benchmark
results. Application benchmarks are more accurate, especially when
run in the same kind of environment that the user will encounter.
Even then, you should not blindly trust those.
You can say whatever you want. And whats more, I am told often by
disgruntled Solaris performance engineers that lmbench is "bush
league", that is perfectly fine with me. My response is, if it is so
bush leage, why is it so difficult for these systems to get better
numbers than Linux? Stay down.
And watch out, I have gigabit ethernet and FDDI coming very soon as
well. SGI cannot even touch my bandwidth and latencies over 100baseT.
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:38:20 1996
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To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
cc: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 12:07:54 +1100."
<Pine.BSF.3.91.961203120713.1605p-100000@panda.hilink.com.au>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:37:50 -0800
Message-ID: <7059.849577070@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> What is at the other end of the link? Is it also a FreeBSD box?
Yep. In fact, it's freefall. :-)
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:39:12 1996
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:25:00 MST."
<199612030025.RAA12504@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:37:06 -0800
Message-ID: <7043.849577026@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> > Yeah, like this will ever happen. :-)
>
> Well, it certainly won't if people keep implementing "user interface library
> of the day". 8-(.
Yeah, but who in their right mind is going to reverse-engineer all of
wksh, either? I don't see any source code, and that's a much tougher
row to hoe than simply writing a simple "GUI toolkit."
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:43:10 1996
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To: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:32:26 PST."
<96Dec2.173236pst.2310@tibia-235.parc.xerox.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:42:56 -0800
Message-ID: <7122.849577376@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Does "ifconfig sl0 down; ifconfig sl0 up" help, or do you have to kill
> and restart slattach?
I have to kill and restart slattach. I tried the down/up trick too. :-(
> Does "ifconfig sl0 delete; ifconfig sl0 address rmtaddr" help?
I haven't tried that. I will give it a shot next time it goes
tango-uniform on me.
> When you're experiencing the problem, what do packets going out the
> line sourced from your machine look like? (e.g. tcpdump -n -i sl0 icmp;
> ping somehost).
They apparently don't even *try* to go out the interface! :( It's
apparently something farther up the line saying "no, it's dead, let it
rest in peace."
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:49:14 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612030148.MAA07524@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-Reply-To: <27053.849528306@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 2, 96 04:05:06 am"
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:18:52 +1030 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying:
>
> Yeah, though Ctk is also a good example of what happens if you try and
> take the Tk paradigm and extend it in a direction it was never meant
> to go. "Klunky" doesn't even come close to programming in Ctk.
Yup. You want something "like" Tk, not a port of Tk to curses.
> I suppose that if you were *really* heavily into abstraction, you
> could do both and the encapsulation of an HTML generator/driver would
> just become another interface type. :-)
>
> I dunno, what do you think of all this?
HTML is too weak. We had this shot down last time 8( How do you plan
do do, say, a progress indicator? (redirects? server push?)
Or how do I do an interactive setup page; eg. here's something like what
I was tinkering with for the parition editor screen for the tool I'm
currently working on :
Current slice : 1:2
Partitions : Mount :
a: [<<] ###...................................... [>>] 25MB /
b: [<<] #########................................ [>>] 64MB swap
e: [<<] ######################................... [>>] 150MB /usr
f: [<<] ......................................... [>>] 0MB
g: [<<] ......................................... [>>] 0MB
h: [<<] ......................................... [>>] 0MB
Free: #####.................................... 15MB
[Accept] [Revert] [Cancel]
Pretty obvious; hit the buttons to size your partitions, the hashmarks
move to give you feedback, etc. This is actually fairly easy to
implement with little more than "put the cursor here" and perhaps inverse
video to show the highlight.
But you _can't_ do this sort of interactive feedback without client-side
scripting.
Which loses you Lynx. Which is the only real plus for HTML in the first
place.
> Jordan
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 17:56:09 1996
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To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 20:33:44 EST."
<199612030133.UAA18131@jenolan.caipgeneral>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:56:00 -0800
Message-ID: <7184.849578160@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> league", that is perfectly fine with me. My response is, if it is so
> bush leage, why is it so difficult for these systems to get better
> numbers than Linux? Stay down.
Which is a rather porous argument, to say the least.
Morons: "We've proven that our car goes much faster than the
competition's does when we have all 4 doors open, due to the
superior wind-resistance characteristics of our door design."
Competition: "Why in god's name would you want to optimize for that?
Who in their right mind would drive with all the doors open?"
Morons: "You're just jealous. Beat our open-door numbers or shut up."
Likewise, testing things like loopback vs actual transmission
performance or no-load machine response is just as silly as optimizing
for the corner case of driving with your doors open. Who bloody
*cares* what the results of a meaningless benchmark are, and why would
you ever want to get "better numbers" in an area of trivial
measurement where the only real result is to look better on some
marketdroid's tally sheet, no doubt obfuscating the code in question
and perhaps even degrading performance for the cases your users
actually *do* care about.
Those tactics might sound good to Microsoft or (though I hope not)
Linux, but the fact that many people use FreeBSD in *real world*
situations where performance under extreme load (>1000 users) is
paramount means that optimizing for these scenarios counts for far
more than chasing some micro-benchmark, and this is what has led John
to focus on specific types of performance over others. We wouldn't
have it any other way, and you tell me - which is better for us,
making thousands of simultaneous TCP/IP connections work properly or
shaving another microsecond off a meaningless latency benchmark?
I'll give you an hour to answer that question, and you may use a
calculator.
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:01:01 1996
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com
CC: dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
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Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:10:15 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612030209.VAA01252@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:09:42 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030133.UAA18131@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Dec 2, 96 08:33:44 pm
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>
> You can say whatever you want. And whats more, I am told often by
> disgruntled Solaris performance engineers that lmbench is "bush
> league", that is perfectly fine with me. My response is, if it is so
> bush leage, why is it so difficult for these systems to get better
> numbers than Linux? Stay down.
>
lmbench measures a specific data point. "Bush league" is not descriptive
and just as silly as incompletely specified performance numbers. I don't
agree with namecalling as a valid criticism of a benchmark. Note that
my criticism is not condemning.
>
> And watch out, I have gigabit ethernet and FDDI coming very soon as
> well. SGI cannot even touch my bandwidth and latencies over 100baseT.
>
I really don't care how fast SGI, Linux, etc are. FreeBSD generally maxes
out hardware also. I do care about integrity. I really have few complaints
about your bragging -- I do reserve the right (and anyone intellectually
honest would agree) to ask for the benchmark and interpret what it really
measures. The lmbench TCP/UDP benchmarks are pretty much single connection
(or perhaps two) single threaded benchmarks... So what?
Lmbench is NOT bush league, the results just need to be interpreted.
BTW, FreeBSD (x86) bw_pipe measures approx 200-230MBytes per second on my
machine, beat that!!! In fact bw_mem_rd measures 600+ MBytes/sec on my
machine -- beat that!!! I know what the benchmark measures, and it really
doesn't mean that much (IMO), but my statement is meant to illustrate
the fact that the benchmark results need to be interpreted. I know what
bw_tcp/lat_tcp/lat_udp, etc... measure also. I also claim that they do
not mean enough by themselves to judge the suitability of an OS (or a
(TCP|UDP)/IP) stack to a task.
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:12:54 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:13:00 +1100 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-Reply-To: <7059.849577070@time.cdrom.com>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > What is at the other end of the link? Is it also a FreeBSD box?
>
> Yep. In fact, it's freefall. :-)
Look at freefall's routing tables and messages files, not just your own.
I experience exactly the same symptoms as you, and it is at the remote
end that I see the errors in the log file. Look for arpresolve errors.
Danny
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:16:26 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:16:32 +1100 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
cc: fenner@parc.xerox.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-Reply-To: <96Dec2.173236pst.2310@tibia-235.parc.xerox.com>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Bill Fenner wrote:
> Does "ifconfig sl0 down; ifconfig sl0 up" help, or do you have to kill
> and restart slattach?
>
> Does "ifconfig sl0 delete; ifconfig sl0 address rmtaddr" help?
I tried these sorts of things and got nowhere, but I did not have control
of the remote end at the time (for obvious reasons).
> When you're experiencing the problem, what do packets going out the
> line sourced from your machine look like? (e.g. tcpdump -n -i sl0 icmp;
> ping somehost).
I'll try it next time.
Danny
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:17:19 1996
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To: dg@root.com
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
From: dkelly@hiwaay.net
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-reply-to: Message from David Greenman <dg@root.com>
of "Sun, 01 Dec 1996 22:19:37 PST." <199612020619.WAA05208@root.com>
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David Greenman <dg@root.com> wrote:
>
> [corbin:bsd] lat_tcp localhost
> $Id: lat_tcp.c,v 1.1 1994/11/18 08:49:48 lm Exp $
Oh boy! I want to try this too! Where do I find lat_tcp and similar goodies?
While I can't compete for the fastest, I'll try for the slowest. I have a
386SX16 with 4.5M (don't know where the half is, but FreeBSD says its
there) and a 3-com 8 bit Etherlink II. That machine takes 4 days to do
"catman -f". So beat that if you dare!
Actually that machine is quite useful as its a fold up AC-powered luggable.
Briefcase size, not suitcase. Complete with boot floppies, spare 8-bit
3-Com board, cables, and connectors, 850M HD, and some handwritten
instructions, its a good machine to loan to friends to intall FreeBSD from.
Always invokes the comment, "you mean FreeBSD will run on *that*?"
--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net
=====================================================================
The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its
capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:18:47 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:17:34 -0500
Message-Id: <199612030217.VAA18178@jenolan.caipgeneral>
From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com
CC: dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-reply-to: <7184.849578160@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com)
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:56:00 -0800
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Which is a rather porous argument, to say the least.
Morons: "We've proven that our car goes much faster than the
competition's does when we have all 4 doors open, due to the
superior wind-resistance characteristics of our door design."
Competition: "Why in god's name would you want to optimize for that?
Who in their right mind would drive with all the doors open?"
Morons: "You're just jealous. Beat our open-door numbers or shut up."
The situation is not the same.
Likewise, testing things like loopback vs actual transmission
performance or no-load machine response is just as silly as optimizing
for the corner case of driving with your doors open. Who bloody
*cares* what the results of a meaningless benchmark are, and why would
you ever want to get "better numbers" in an area of trivial
measurement where the only real result is to look better on some
marketdroid's tally sheet, no doubt obfuscating the code in question
and perhaps even degrading performance for the cases your users
actually *do* care about.
You assertion poorly assumes that all of us agree that the benchmarks
in question are in fact meaningless. Many people (people in the "real
world") will disagree with you.
And as for the marketdroid's tally sheet, that sells machines
pinhead. If you think it does not, why does the government spec
lmbench numbers for all purchases these days? What concrete numbers
are you able to put on that tally sheet? None, because whatever
benchmarks the freebsd people are using to perform their improvements
are under lock and key, most likely because once the Linux crowd had
these at their disposal, we'd fix the problems they show because
they'd be trivial. I'm not concerned.
I think it is funny how the Linux crowd brags about numbers that
anyone can grab the sources for and run for themselves. Whereas the
freebsd people brag about performance characteristics that they claim
_they_ can test and get numbers for, but the rest of the world has to
wonder whether such benchmarks even exist.
Those tactics might sound good to Microsoft or (though I hope not)
Linux, but the fact that many people use FreeBSD in *real world*
situations where performance under extreme load (>1000 users) is
paramount means that optimizing for these scenarios counts for far
more than chasing some micro-benchmark, and this is what has led John
to focus on specific types of performance over others. We wouldn't
have it any other way, and you tell me - which is better for us,
making thousands of simultaneous TCP/IP connections work properly or
shaving another microsecond off a meaningless latency benchmark?
I'll give you an hour to answer that question, and you may use a
calculator.
I prefer the abacus, but thanks.
As for scalability. I have numbers (available upon request) where I
ran 100 streaming tcp connections between two (very low end) machines
in parallel, and the bandwidth and latency numbers scaled very nicely
with a variance that was all lost in the noise. Perhaps I should post
those results to usenet as well.
Also, SparcLinux pushes ~17MB/s over _software_ RAID, thats close to
the theoretical maximum for 16-bit synchronous WIDE scsi.
I'll be running numbers with 50 or so workstations pummeling a web
server over 3 or 4 100baseT lines and 4 10baseT lines, we'll see if
your arguments hold. And if they do, I have to thank you, because you
have shown me a way in which my system can be improved.
And my systems are used in real world high stress situations as well
mind you. High load news servers run SparcLinux with zero problems,
and performance that blows SunOS/Solaris out of the arena (I can put
people in touch with the people who are running these systems if they
want verification).
So my performance translates into real world, so I don't want to hear
your whining over this matter any more.
Oh yes, and our main Linux mail server btw runs SparcLinux, over a 100
lists, the most active ones (say 10 or so) have many thousands of
subscribers. It is multiuser, holds all my CVS sources, has a full
FTP archive, and runs an actively used web server. Oh and btw, this
is a dinky 40MHz SparcClassic (4k I and D caches, thats it) with 40MB
of ram and two SCSI disks. The load never goes over 4.
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:29:11 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612030228.VAA01336@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:28:42 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@FreeBSD.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com,
iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-Reply-To: <199612030217.VAA18178@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Dec 2, 96 09:17:34 pm
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>
> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 17:56:00 -0800
> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
>
> Which is a rather porous argument, to say the least.
>
> Morons: "We've proven that our car goes much faster than the
> competition's does when we have all 4 doors open, due to the
> superior wind-resistance characteristics of our door design."
>
> Competition: "Why in god's name would you want to optimize for that?
> Who in their right mind would drive with all the doors open?"
>
> Morons: "You're just jealous. Beat our open-door numbers or shut up."
>
> The situation is not the same.
>
> Likewise, testing things like loopback vs actual transmission
> performance or no-load machine response is just as silly as optimizing
> for the corner case of driving with your doors open. Who bloody
> *cares* what the results of a meaningless benchmark are, and why would
> you ever want to get "better numbers" in an area of trivial
> measurement where the only real result is to look better on some
> marketdroid's tally sheet, no doubt obfuscating the code in question
> and perhaps even degrading performance for the cases your users
> actually *do* care about.
>
> You assertion poorly assumes that all of us agree that the benchmarks
> in question are in fact meaningless. Many people (people in the "real
> world") will disagree with you.
>
> And as for the marketdroid's tally sheet, that sells machines
> pinhead. If you think it does not, why does the government spec
> lmbench numbers for all purchases these days? What concrete numbers
> are you able to put on that tally sheet? None, because whatever
> benchmarks the freebsd people are using to perform their improvements
> are under lock and key, most likely because once the Linux crowd had
> these at their disposal, we'd fix the problems they show because
> they'd be trivial. I'm not concerned.
>
> I think it is funny how the Linux crowd brags about numbers that
> anyone can grab the sources for and run for themselves. Whereas the
> freebsd people brag about performance characteristics that they claim
> _they_ can test and get numbers for, but the rest of the world has to
> wonder whether such benchmarks even exist.
>
> Those tactics might sound good to Microsoft or (though I hope not)
> Linux, but the fact that many people use FreeBSD in *real world*
> situations where performance under extreme load (>1000 users) is
> paramount means that optimizing for these scenarios counts for far
> more than chasing some micro-benchmark, and this is what has led John
> to focus on specific types of performance over others. We wouldn't
> have it any other way, and you tell me - which is better for us,
> making thousands of simultaneous TCP/IP connections work properly or
> shaving another microsecond off a meaningless latency benchmark?
>
> I'll give you an hour to answer that question, and you may use a
> calculator.
>
> I prefer the abacus, but thanks.
>
> As for scalability. I have numbers (available upon request) where I
> ran 100 streaming tcp connections between two (very low end) machines
> in parallel, and the bandwidth and latency numbers scaled very nicely
> with a variance that was all lost in the noise. Perhaps I should post
> those results to usenet as well.
>
> Also, SparcLinux pushes ~17MB/s over _software_ RAID, thats close to
> the theoretical maximum for 16-bit synchronous WIDE scsi.
>
> I'll be running numbers with 50 or so workstations pummeling a web
> server over 3 or 4 100baseT lines and 4 10baseT lines, we'll see if
> your arguments hold. And if they do, I have to thank you, because you
> have shown me a way in which my system can be improved.
>
> And my systems are used in real world high stress situations as well
> mind you. High load news servers run SparcLinux with zero problems,
> and performance that blows SunOS/Solaris out of the arena (I can put
> people in touch with the people who are running these systems if they
> want verification).
>
> So my performance translates into real world, so I don't want to hear
> your whining over this matter any more.
>
> Oh yes, and our main Linux mail server btw runs SparcLinux, over a 100
> lists, the most active ones (say 10 or so) have many thousands of
> subscribers. It is multiuser, holds all my CVS sources, has a full
> FTP archive, and runs an actively used web server. Oh and btw, this
> is a dinky 40MHz SparcClassic (4k I and D caches, thats it) with 40MB
> of ram and two SCSI disks. The load never goes over 4.
>
> ---------------------------------------------////
> Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
> 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
> ethernet. Beat that! ////
> -----------------------------------------////__________ o
> David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
>
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:30:49 1996
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199612030230.TAA05867@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:30:15 -0700 (MST)
Cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com,
kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <7184.849578160@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Dec 2, 96 05:56:00 pm
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It seems that Jordan K. Hubbard said:
>
> > league", that is perfectly fine with me. My response is, if it is so
> > bush leage, why is it so difficult for these systems to get better
> > numbers than Linux? Stay down.
>
> Which is a rather porous argument, to say the least.
>
> Morons: "We've proven that our car goes much faster than the
> competition's does when we have all 4 doors open, due to the
> superior wind-resistance characteristics of our door design."
>
> Competition: "Why in god's name would you want to optimize for that?
> Who in their right mind would drive with all the doors open?"
>
> Morons: "You're just jealous. Beat our open-door numbers or shut up."
>
>
> Likewise, testing things like loopback vs actual transmission
> performance or no-load machine response is just as silly as optimizing
> for the corner case of driving with your doors open. Who bloody
> *cares* what the results of a meaningless benchmark are, and why would
> you ever want to get "better numbers" in an area of trivial
> measurement where the only real result is to look better on some
> marketdroid's tally sheet, no doubt obfuscating the code in question
> and perhaps even degrading performance for the cases your users
> actually *do* care about.
>
> Those tactics might sound good to Microsoft or (though I hope not)
> Linux, but the fact that many people use FreeBSD in *real world*
> situations where performance under extreme load (>1000 users) is
> paramount means that optimizing for these scenarios counts for far
> more than chasing some micro-benchmark, and this is what has led John
> to focus on specific types of performance over others. We wouldn't
> have it any other way, and you tell me - which is better for us,
> making thousands of simultaneous TCP/IP connections work properly or
> shaving another microsecond off a meaningless latency benchmark?
(sigh) It's *really* unfortunate that it would be a *monumentous*
task, but it would be amusing/entertaining/educational/informative
to switch ftp.cdrom.com over to a Linux (etc.) box for a day and
watch what happens! :> (Admittedly not a true apples<->apples
comparison...)
Just my $0.02
--don
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:35:04 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:18:09 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199612030218.NAA11739@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, tony@nlanr.net
Subject: Re: Driver help
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> - It's probably not actually necessary to disable tty interrupts
> while doing any of the read in this particular driver, but for
> many the possibility of conflict is real.
Interrupts should not be disabled while doing the uiomove() for
several reasons:
- it's antisocial to disable interrupts for a long time.
- uiomove() is certain to take a long time if it blocks because it
gets a pagefault and has to read the page from a disk.
- disabling interrupts doesn't actually disable them if uiomove()
blocks. Then the process doing the reading will usually sleep
and another process may run. You have to assume that uiomove()
blocked and another process ran inside the driver and clobbered all
the clobberable variables. You have to do this even if the driver
doesn't use interrupts so that disabling interrupts is unnecessary.
There is no such thing as exclusive access, since dup() or fork()
may have duplicated an open file descriptor for the device.
Bruce
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:38:17 1996
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To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
cc: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 13:13:00 +1100."
<Pine.BSF.3.91.961203130617.1605r-100000@panda.hilink.com.au>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 18:37:36 -0800
Message-ID: <14016.849580656@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Look at freefall's routing tables and messages files, not just your own.
> I experience exactly the same symptoms as you, and it is at the remote
> end that I see the errors in the log file. Look for arpresolve errors.
Not a peep in freefall's message log. Ah well, good theory, anyway. :)
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:39:27 1996
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 96 17:42:56 PST."
<7122.849577376@time.cdrom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:38:42 PST
From: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
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In message <7122.849577376@time.cdrom.com> you write:
>They apparently don't even *try* to go out the interface!
Did you use "tcpdump -n"? If you didn't use the -n flag, then tcpdump
was probably hanging trying to do name resolution.
Bill
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:46:33 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:46:48 +1100 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-Reply-To: <14016.849580656@time.cdrom.com>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > Look at freefall's routing tables and messages files, not just your own.
> > I experience exactly the same symptoms as you, and it is at the remote
> > end that I see the errors in the log file. Look for arpresolve errors.
>
> Not a peep in freefall's message log. Ah well, good theory, anyway. :)
*sigh* Rats. I want this solved, too, but evidence of what is going on
is really hard to come by.. My arpresovle errors could be caused *by* the
problem, rather than at the heart of it.
Danny
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:47:22 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 02:11:34 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Sparrevohn <staff@kyklopen.ping.dk>
To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
Cc: "Sexton, Robert" <sextonr.crestvie@squared.com>,
Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Alpha Based Machines (Was: Re: IBM 57SLC)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961127152700.2595C-100000@maryann.eng.umd.edu>
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On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Chuck Robey wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Sexton, Robert wrote:
>
> > On a subject change....
> > Are there any _affordable_ alpha motherboards out there yet?
> > I see microway is selling $5000 dollar, 32MB systems. <Ouch!>
> > Economies of scale look a long way off.
>
> There's supposed to be a big educational discount available, if you're at
> a university.
They do? To departments or to individuals?
Regards Thomas
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:50:48 1996
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From: tom@tomqnx.com (Tom Torrance at home)
Subject: Re: Routing questions
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 21:53:11 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612021645.JAA28732@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Dec 2, 96 09:45:44 am"
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You and those advising you to date are making something simple
quite complex.
Set up a private network for your boss. Pick up Charles Mott's
IP-aliasing version of IJPPP from:
http://www.srv.net/~cmott/alias.html
Compile it and set it up and you are in business.
This is a drop-in capability to do what you want.
Regards,
Tom
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 18:51:42 1996
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <199612030250.UAA25677@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: dkelly@hiwaay.net
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:50:12 -0600 (CST)
Cc: dg@root.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030217.UAA05296@nexgen.HiWAAY.net> from "dkelly@hiwaay.net" at Dec 2, 96 08:17:04 pm
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> David Greenman <dg@root.com> wrote:
> >
> > [corbin:bsd] lat_tcp localhost
> > $Id: lat_tcp.c,v 1.1 1994/11/18 08:49:48 lm Exp $
>
> Oh boy! I want to try this too! Where do I find lat_tcp and similar goodies?
>
> While I can't compete for the fastest, I'll try for the slowest. I have a
> 386SX16 with 4.5M (don't know where the half is, but FreeBSD says its
> there) and a 3-com 8 bit Etherlink II. That machine takes 4 days to do
> "catman -f". So beat that if you dare!
What are you bellyaching about!! I have.. a..
386SX/16 with 3MB RAM (2 1x9's plus 4 256kX4's)
WD 40MB hard disk (one of the earliest IDE drives)
It has a blazing fast SMC 8003E...
AND it doesn't work if in turbo mode. (So figure it's a 386SX/8)
Any takers? I can (barely) think of worse configurations. Surely
somebody has one!
:-) :-) Followups to -chat.
... JG
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:00:43 1996
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
Message-Id: <199612030300.TAA02612@freefall.freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: EurOpen.SE: FreeBSD Presentation, trip report
To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:00:39 -0800 (PST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030053.QAA03012@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Dec 2, 96 04:53:49 pm
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Jason Thorpe wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:26:27 -0800 (PST)
> "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@freefall.freebsd.org> wrote:
>
> > core team and portmasters. The core team has the same functions as
> > ours and the portmasters are responisble for applications (which does
> > not jive well with the statement that there is not ports/packages
> > mechanism, but such are my notes)
>
> That's almost completely wrong... The portmasters are responsible
> for the individual ports of NetBSD ... NetBSD/i386, NetBSD/hp300,
> NetBSD/powerpc, NetBSD/alpha, NetBSD/amiga, etc. In the NetBSD world,
> `ports' has an entirely different meaning than in the FreeBSD world.
>
> Having read Charles' slides before he presented them, I know he didn't
> say that the portmasters were responsible for `applications'. There
> are, however, other key developers that are responsible for various
> application programs that are shipped with NetBSD (i.e. BIND, Sendmail,
> dhcpd, vi, etc.)
ah....thank you. my notes were a little blurred in that section.
jmb
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:02:13 1996
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To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 21:17:34 EST."
<199612030217.VAA18178@jenolan.caipgeneral>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 19:02:00 -0800
Message-ID: <14423.849582120@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> You assertion poorly assumes that all of us agree that the benchmarks
> in question are in fact meaningless. Many people (people in the "real
> world") will disagree with you.
Fine.
> And as for the marketdroid's tally sheet, that sells machines
> pinhead. If you think it does not, why does the government spec
How nice that you are able to present your arguments without resorting
to name-calling - the mark of someone who's genuinely secure in his
technical abilities. And how did Linus get dragged into this, anyway?
Is this the modern equivalent of calling for Daddy, or what? I'd
think he had better things to do, as do I, so this will be the last
round. If I felt it was worth my while to get into a debate with you,
I'd make the time, but the tone your arguments are taking don't
indicate this as a strong possibility.
> lmbench numbers for all purchases these days? What concrete numbers
> are you able to put on that tally sheet? None, because whatever
> benchmarks the freebsd people are using to perform their improvements
> are under lock and key, most likely because once the Linux crowd had
> these at their disposal, we'd fix the problems they show because
You're gravely misinformed. First off, you assume that we play the
numbers game in the same way that you do when we manifestly don't. We
don't brag out about our lmbench numbers just as we don't walk around
with our pants off carrying rulers and comparing penis lengths, and I
think this whole silly thread all started off in reaction to your
.signature. If public a display of your bulging manhood is what it
takes to floats your boat then have at it, but don't expect us to play
the same game and certainly don't castigate us for refusing to play.
Second, we don't have a "tally sheet" because we know that a tally
sheet *for the numbers we find meaningful* would be essentially
useless for anyone else's comparison purposes. Short of building an
ftp.cdrom.com of your own, or lining up someone like Yahoo to build a
dozen Linux servers which get beat to heck with millions of web hits a
day, there's simply *no way* for you to compare numbers with us, as
good as they might be (and I'm not saying they wouldn't be, simply
that there's no way to know without a nearly identical playing field).
Given the wide disparity between what we feel to be important and what
you feel to be important, how is any meaningful comparison even
possible? Take the hint - it's not, at least not until/unless you
build some truly beefy servers we can see numbers for.
> I think it is funny how the Linux crowd brags about numbers that
> anyone can grab the sources for and run for themselves. Whereas the
I find that funny too. Good thing we agree on something.
> I'll be running numbers with 50 or so workstations pummeling a web
> server over 3 or 4 100baseT lines and 4 10baseT lines, we'll see if
> your arguments hold. And if they do, I have to thank you, because you
> have shown me a way in which my system can be improved.
I hope for the sake of your tests that you increase this well beyond
50 work stations. Get someone to put the server at a NAP and (I'm
perfectly serious) find some free porn or popular shareware to stick
on it for a week. That will attract more than enough web users, far
more than 50, and you can see how the machine truly performs under the
onslaught. I'm sure there's got to be a Linux fan somewhere with a T3
or better connection who'd be willing to make this a meaningful test.
I'd be interested in the results. Until then, I think it's in everyone's
best interest that this thread end. We all have better things we should
be doing.
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:03:07 1996
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To: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 18:38:42 PST."
<96Dec2.183846pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 19:02:53 -0800
Message-ID: <15159.849582173@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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I don't recall now - I'll do this again next time it croaks. :) Thanks
for all the feedback - I really appreciate it, and you've given me
more useful things to try.
> In message <7122.849577376@time.cdrom.com> you write:
> >They apparently don't even *try* to go out the interface!
>
> Did you use "tcpdump -n"? If you didn't use the -n flag, then tcpdump
> was probably hanging trying to do name resolution.
>
> Bill
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:10:44 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612030310.WAA01452@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: dgy@rtd.com (Don Yuniskis)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:10:21 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, dyson@freebsd.org,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030230.TAA05867@seagull.rtd.com> from "Don Yuniskis" at Dec 2, 96 07:30:15 pm
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>
> (sigh) It's *really* unfortunate that it would be a *monumentous*
> task, but it would be amusing/entertaining/educational/informative
> to switch ftp.cdrom.com over to a Linux (etc.) box for a day and
> watch what happens! :> (Admittedly not a true apples<->apples
> comparison...)
>
Probably like apples to apple-juice :-).
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:22:30 1996
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <199612030319.VAA25727@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:19:50 -0600 (CST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@FreeBSD.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com,
iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-Reply-To: <199612030217.VAA18178@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Dec 2, 96 09:17:34 pm
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We clearly have two irreconciliable viewpoints here.
Let the jerk win, because clearly Linux is superior.
We all run FreeBSD because it sucks rocks and because
we like running something that is inferior.
Benchmarks are always meaningful. Real world heavy
duty applications mean nothing.
Clearly I am not someone in the "real world" as my
clients only invest six digit figures to implement
my FreeBSD-based recommendations.
Marketing tally sheets are authoritative. So is the
MIPS rating, a venerable benchmark. Let's all start
using that!
The abacus is clearly superior to both a scientific
calculator AND the UNIX "bc/dc/expr" programs.
Buying SPARC equipment is fiscally responsible.
These and all sorts of other fallacies are all free
for the taking. Obviously David Miller believes a
lot of them!
But that's okay, because it's a free country. And he
is free to believe whatever he wants, whether it is
bullshit or fact.
The real shame is that this rivalry is antagonistic.
I would gladly recommend Linux any day over Windows,
95, NT, OS/2, SCO, etc. Having experience with a
multitude of operating systems, including (but by no
means limited to) Linux, 386BSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD,
Solaris x86, SCO, DOS, Windows, 95, NT, and OS/2, I
have concluded that I believe the best general
purpose OS to be FreeBSD. I would recommend it over
Linux any day. But we need to keep sight of the fact
that FreeBSD and Linux are free software cousins -
and I would rather see someone run _some_ free OS
rather than a Gates Borg-osity.
Look, folks, benchmarks are benchmarks. They are not
real world performance indicators. They are simply
relative artificial performance evaluators, and as
such can be influenced by a wide variety of factors,
including OS tweaks. I never make the mistake of
taking a benchmark's results as an absolute comparison
of apples and oranges.
Hey, Linux may have some great benchmarks. I promise
you that I can skew them in favor of FreeBSD. Hey,
FreeBSD may have some great benchmarks. I promise you
that I can skew them in favor of Linux. Hey, I can
skew benchmarks to favor _SOLARIS_. Now there's a real
performance lion!
My recommendation: drop this silly thread in the bit
bucket. Concentrate on writing more free software.
That's what the world really needs. Nobody will give
a shit about any of this in a few years when we are
looking at ten gigabit networking technologies. Every-
body will win if people do something constructive and
write new cool code to take advantage of it.
"Sheesh."
... JG
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:24:19 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612030323.NAA08269@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <199612030133.UAA18131@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at "Dec 2, 96 08:33:44 pm"
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:53:37 +1030 (CST)
Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org
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David S. Miller stands accused of saying:
>
> You can say whatever you want. And whats more, I am told often by
> disgruntled Solaris performance engineers that lmbench is "bush
> league", that is perfectly fine with me. My response is, if it is so
> bush leage, why is it so difficult for these systems to get better
> numbers than Linux? Stay down.
Well, where to start. Look at the author of "lmbench", and consider
the politics of his particular disease.
Then consider the SPECmark fiasco. If you can't see the picture
clearly then, I'm happy to supply two-by-four correction.
> And watch out, I have gigabit ethernet and FDDI coming very soon as
> well. SGI cannot even touch my bandwidth and latencies over 100baseT.
Who said anything about SGI? If I sit down with an embedded processor
system and any sort of network-alive RTOS, I can make your numbers
look sick. How'd you like a negative TCP latency? It's not hard to
do; nor is 100% medium occupancy.
But that system's not going to run applications much better than Linux
does, and this brings us back to John's point; micro-level benchmarks
are for weiner-waving losers who fail to comprehend that computers are
for _doing_ things with.
> David S. Miller
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:29:58 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:30:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank Seltzer <frankd@yoda.fdt.net>
X-Sender: frankd@Kryten.nina.org
To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <199612030217.VAA18178@jenolan.caipgeneral>
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It seems to me that every time that a Linux fanatic stumbles into one of
FreeBSD's mailing lists they start a 'My OS can beat up your OS' argument,
though the name calling usually doesn't come so quickly.
Linux, as well as FreeBSD, has its strengths and weaknesses, as does any
other OS.
Were the Linux advocate an intelligent and reasonable person, an
informative discussion could be had discussing these points.
In noting the .edu domain of your address, I originally thought that
you might be a college student. I now believe that I am addressing the
janitor in the Computer Science Department.
Frank
--
Only in America can a homeless veteran sleep in a cardboard box while a
draft dodger sleeps in the White House - anonymous
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:35:06 1996
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From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Message-Id: <199612030332.VAA02781@bonkers.taronga.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
Newsgroups: taronga.freebsd.hackers
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>Yeah, but who in their right mind is going to reverse-engineer all of
>wksh, either? I don't see any source code, and that's a much tougher
>row to hoe than simply writing a simple "GUI toolkit."
If you were going to emulate something, SCO's text-mode widget library
for tcl might not be a bad idea.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:40:56 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:40:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu
To: Thomas Sparrevohn <staff@kyklopen.ping.dk>
cc: "Sexton, Robert" <sextonr.crestvie@squared.com>,
Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Alpha Based Machines (Was: Re: IBM 57SLC)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.961203021104.566D-100000@kyklopen>
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On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Thomas Sparrevohn wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Chuck Robey wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Sexton, Robert wrote:
> >
> > > On a subject change....
> > > Are there any _affordable_ alpha motherboards out there yet?
> > > I see microway is selling $5000 dollar, 32MB systems. <Ouch!>
> > > Economies of scale look a long way off.
> >
> > There's supposed to be a big educational discount available, if you're at
> > a university.
>
> They do? To departments or to individuals?
I can't answer that, and seeing as I've already blown this year's (and
next year's) computer budget on x86 stuff, I guess I don't think I'll be
investigating that soon.
>
> Regards Thomas
>
>
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data
chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302 |
Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 19:46:31 1996
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:46:56 +1100 (EDT)
Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030133.UAA18131@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Dec 2, 96 08:33:44 pm
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In some mail from David S. Miller, sie said:
[...]
> You can say whatever you want. And whats more, I am told often by
> disgruntled Solaris performance engineers that lmbench is "bush
> league", that is perfectly fine with me. My response is, if it is so
> bush leage, why is it so difficult for these systems to get better
> numbers than Linux? Stay down.
>
> And watch out, I have gigabit ethernet and FDDI coming very soon as
> well. SGI cannot even touch my bandwidth and latencies over 100baseT.
>
> ---------------------------------------------////
> Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
> 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
> ethernet. Beat that! ////
> -----------------------------------------////__________ o
> David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
Why is it that whenever you pop your head up onto NetBSD or FreeBSD you
look like a jerk waving the Linux flag and trying to cause trouble ?
Tell me, does Linux implement STREAMS in the kernel with a properly stacked
network implementation, using DLPI and TLPI with fine grain mutexes and
locks ?
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 20:11:27 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:10:51 -0500
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au
CC: dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-reply-to: <199612030346.WAA13314@caipfs.rutgers.edu> (message from Darren
Reed on Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:46:56 +1100 (EDT))
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:46:56 +1100 (EDT)
Why is it that whenever you pop your head up onto NetBSD or FreeBSD
you look like a jerk waving the Linux flag and trying to cause
trouble ?
I was CC:'d and critisized for benchmark numbers I claim in my
signature, and I am defending my accomplishments.
Tell me, does Linux implement STREAMS in the kernel with a properly
stacked network implementation, using DLPI and TLPI with fine grain
mutexes and locks ?
Oh yes, then we'll have real performance. Take a look at how many
fastpaths and shortcuts the Solaris folks have to do to overcome the
performance problems assosciated with streams. The Solaris
performance people are constantly breaking their necks to find new
ways to overcome these issues. If Ritchie couldn't get it right,
perhaps this is good enough cause that it isn't such a hot idea, and
that the implementation needs to be done differently (see below) or
the entire idea trashed.
Streams can be done at the user level with minimal kernel support.
The only reason it is completely in the kernel in most commercial
systems is that someone let it in there in the first place. It is
very hard to "take out" something like that once it is in, especially
in a commercial source tree.
Fine grained mutexes and locks, yes that will indeed get you scaling
better than a master lock implementation (which is what Linux has at
the moment). But it is not a reasonable way to implement scalable SMP
systems.
For how I think it should be done, investigate the numerous papers
available on non-blocking synchronization and (harder to find) self
locking data structures.
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 20:20:08 1996
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com
CC: dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-reply-to: <14423.849582120@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com)
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 19:02:00 -0800
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
And how did Linus get dragged into this, anyway?
He got added for the same reasons the key FreeBSD developers are on
this CC: list. Because I felt that linus could provide more
comprehensive technical arguments for some of the issues I have
brought up.
Is this the modern equivalent of calling for Daddy, or what?
If I recall correctly, the BSD camps originated the proliferation of
entities such as "trolls" whose sole purpose is to just go "yeah,
yeah, what so and so said".
I'm not calling for Daddy, if you think this is so then you are
gravely informed. Stop bringing up a straw man and shooting him down.
With that logic I could say that having Dyson on this CC: list is for
the same reason. No one has commented to such and end.
> lmbench numbers for all purchases these days? What concrete
> numbers are you able to put on that tally sheet? None, because
> whatever benchmarks the freebsd people are using to perform their
> improvements are under lock and key, most likely because once the
> Linux crowd had these at their disposal, we'd fix the problems
> they show because
You're gravely misinformed.
I don't feel that I am. Please show me that it is untrue that raw
lmbench numbers do not translate into sales for anyone, and I'd be
equally interested in seeing claims to the contrary that the governemt
specifically specs lmbench numbers. I would not make such a claim if
I were not certain of it.
First off, you assume that we play the numbers game in the same way
that you do when we manifestly don't. We don't brag out about our
lmbench numbers just as we don't walk around with our pants off
carrying rulers and comparing penis lengths, and I think this whole
silly thread all started off in reaction to your .signature. If
public a display of your bulging manhood is what it takes to floats
your boat then have at it, but don't expect us to play the same
game and certainly don't castigate us for refusing to play.
Someone made the choice to comment loudly about my .sig, they could
have just as well ignored it and not CC:'d their comments to me on top
of it.
Second, we don't have a "tally sheet" because we know that a tally
sheet *for the numbers we find meaningful* would be essentially
useless for anyone else's comparison purposes.
Are you saying it wouldn't have the effect of selling systems just
like I am claiming lmbench numbers do?
Given the wide disparity between what we feel to be important and
what you feel to be important, how is any meaningful comparison
even possible? Take the hint - it's not, at least not until/unless
you build some truly beefy servers we can see numbers for.
I've stated beefy servers that run day and night and perform very
well. Perhaps it is easy for you to drop those things which I have
said.
I hope for the sake of your tests that you increase this well
beyond 50 work stations. Get someone to put the server at a NAP
and (I'm perfectly serious) find some free porn or popular
shareware to stick on it for a week. That will attract more than
enough web users, far more than 50, and you can see how the machine
truly performs under the onslaught. I'm sure there's got to be a
Linux fan somewhere with a T3 or better connection who'd be willing
to make this a meaningful test.
I'd be interested in the results. Until then, I think it's in
everyone's best interest that this thread end. We all have better
things we should be doing.
I'd be interested as well.
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 20:21:56 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
Message-Id: <199612030420.PAA15467@suburbia.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <199612030319.VAA25727@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Dec 2, 96 09:19:50 pm"
To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:20:06 +1100 (EST)
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> Look, folks, benchmarks are benchmarks. They are not
> real world performance indicators. They are simply
> relative artificial performance evaluators, and as
> such can be influenced by a wide variety of factors,
> including OS tweaks. I never make the mistake of
> taking a benchmark's results as an absolute comparison
> of apples and oranges.
>
Bench marks are not totally useless. Quite often it is hard to find
bottle necks without them. "The system feels slower" isn't going
to do you much good as a diagnostic tool with a monolithic kernel.
This does not imply that they find all bottle-necks.
Julian A.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 20:34:58 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:34:17 -0500
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com
CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@FreeBSD.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com,
iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-reply-to: <199612030319.VAA25727@brasil.moneng.mei.com> (message from Joe
Greco on Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:19:50 -0600 (CST))
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:19:50 -0600 (CST)
Now here is an intelligent posting.
Let the jerk win, because clearly Linux is superior.
We all run FreeBSD because it sucks rocks and because
we like running something that is inferior.
Benchmarks are always meaningful. Real world heavy
duty applications mean nothing.
I've said nothing that asserts the statements you are making. I've
said nothing to the effect that "Using FreeBSD is not a good idea." or
that doing so would get you less performance than Linux or any other
system for that matter.
As for real world heavy duty applications, I did give examples of
where those are in use, but you can certainly feel free to ignore
those statements as others have as well.
Clearly I am not someone in the "real world" as my
clients only invest six digit figures to implement
my FreeBSD-based recommendations.
You're one person, if you want to start talking market share then I'm
game. But that is not much of a constructive thing to discuss.
Marketing tally sheets are authoritative. So is the
MIPS rating, a venerable benchmark. Let's all start
using that!
Regardless of whether they are authoritative or not, they do sell one
machine over another, and often do translate into market share and
installed base.
Buying SPARC equipment is fiscally responsible.
Yes I know, it drives me nuts how every major installation is composed
of numerous Intel's running FreeBSD, very few Sparc's are to be found
at all.
But that's okay, because it's a free country. And he
is free to believe whatever he wants, whether it is
bullshit or fact.
I have stated many facts, you have not refuted nor disproved any of
them.
The real shame is that this rivalry is antagonistic.
As I have stated above I am not being very antagonistic. I have not
denounced FreeBSD once as anything which is inferior, or that Linux is
superior. At least not directly, and if people want to read between
the lines and state that I meant for such things to come through in my
arguments then that is fine, we can read into peoples wording all day.
But we need to keep sight of the fact
that FreeBSD and Linux are free software cousins -
and I would rather see someone run _some_ free OS
rather than a Gates Borg-osity.
I do agree here, the Redmond crap is the real enemy indeed.
Look, folks, benchmarks are benchmarks. They are not
real world performance indicators. They are simply
relative artificial performance evaluators, and as
such can be influenced by a wide variety of factors,
including OS tweaks.
I agree one must be careful when analyzing the results of benchmarks,
but I would not go so far as to call them completely artificial at
all. That is a mistake and Mr. Dyson has made similar comments.
I never make the mistake of taking a benchmark's results as an
absolute comparison of apples and oranges.
I have not stated that people _should_ do as such, but some people
(and many of which decide what systems are to be run on what hardware
platform) actually do.
Hey, Linux may have some great benchmarks. I promise
you that I can skew them in favor of FreeBSD. Hey,
FreeBSD may have some great benchmarks. I promise you
that I can skew them in favor of Linux. Hey, I can
skew benchmarks to favor _SOLARIS_. Now there's a real
performance lion!
I've never skewed benchmarks, if you think I have then please support
such claims. I'd be more than happy to be corrected. I run all of my
benchmarks with both systems running on top of the same exact hardware
configurations, sometimes the same exact machine using the same exact
disk installed from scratch for both sides. How am I being impartial?
Nobody will give a shit about any of this in a few years when we
are looking at ten gigabit networking technologies.
They will if people buy those pieces of hardware and nobody can fill
the pipe.
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 20:36:01 1996
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <199612030435.WAA25907@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:35:00 -0600 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030420.PAA15467@suburbia.net> from "Julian Assange" at Dec 3, 96 03:20:06 pm
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> > Look, folks, benchmarks are benchmarks. They are not
> > real world performance indicators. They are simply
> > relative artificial performance evaluators, and as
> > such can be influenced by a wide variety of factors,
> > including OS tweaks. I never make the mistake of
> > taking a benchmark's results as an absolute comparison
> > of apples and oranges.
>
> Bench marks are not totally useless. Quite often it is hard to find
> bottle necks without them. "The system feels slower" isn't going
> to do you much good as a diagnostic tool with a monolithic kernel.
> This does not imply that they find all bottle-necks.
Hi Julian,
Well, of course! That goes without saying. Benchmarks exist because
they are useful in many cases.
In fact, benchmarks are particularly significant when used on the same
OS and hardware platform. Benchmarks are less significant when
comparing different OS's on the same platform, or the same OS on
different platforms, without some careful analysis and interpretation
of the results. (I think John Dyson has repeatedly talked about this).
I do not think benchmarks are useless. They certainly do an excellent
job of testing performance under artificial circumstances, and for many
purposes, this is useful information. However, when comparing across
operating systems, I would tend to agree that John Dyson is correct when
stating that a direct comparison may not be particularly meaningful.
I will confess that I typically use a very unscientific set of
"benchmarks" to evaluate a new platform and to give me a rough idea
how it measures up to what I already know. This is sufficient for
me because often I am only interested in order-of-magnitude comparisons.
I am aware of this, and I interpret the results accordingly.
... JG
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 20:37:48 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:37:09 -0500
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au
CC: dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: <199612030323.NAA08269@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message
from Michael Smith on Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:53:37 +1030 (CST))
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:53:37 +1030 (CST)
Well, where to start. Look at the author of "lmbench", and
consider the politics of his particular disease.
Personal attacks are not necessary, please stick to logical
arguments.
Then consider the SPECmark fiasco. If you can't see the picture
clearly then, I'm happy to supply two-by-four correction.
I am not familiar with all of issues here, so I cannot comment. But I
do agree that benchmarks are laundered in inconspicuous and
questionable ways, certainly.
Who said anything about SGI? If I sit down with an embedded
processor system and any sort of network-alive RTOS, I can make
your numbers look sick. How'd you like a negative TCP latency?
It's not hard to do; nor is 100% medium occupancy.
Are you offering full Unix (or POSIX, or some othe full featured
system) semantics on that system? One of the things I am proud of is
that I can pretty much fill a nice pipe, and retain all of the
semantics of a full system.
But that system's not going to run applications much better than
Linux does, and this brings us back to John's point; micro-level
benchmarks are for weiner-waving losers who fail to comprehend that
computers are for _doing_ things with.
If you read John's other posting, he did not express his opinions on
this matter in this way at all.
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 20:39:27 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:38:40 -0500
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: frankd@yoda.fdt.net
CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961202220957.535A-100000@Kryten.nina.org> (message
from Frank Seltzer on Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:30:11 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:30:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank Seltzer <frankd@yoda.fdt.net>
It seems to me that every time that a Linux fanatic stumbles into one of
FreeBSD's mailing lists they start a 'My OS can beat up your OS' argument,
though the name calling usually doesn't come so quickly.
I've never stated anything like this, I wish these claims would subside.
Linux, as well as FreeBSD, has its strengths and weaknesses, as does any
other OS.
I totally agree, and have never stated anything to the contrary, even
though people wish that I have in some way.
Were the Linux advocate an intelligent and reasonable person, an
informative discussion could be had discussing these points.
Ok, a plea for intelligence...
In noting the .edu domain of your address, I originally thought that
you might be a college student. I now believe that I am addressing the
janitor in the Computer Science Department.
...and then an immature remark
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 20:44:17 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612030443.PAA08648@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-Reply-To: <199612030332.VAA02781@bonkers.taronga.com> from Peter da Silva at "Dec 2, 96 09:32:37 pm"
To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:13:50 +1030 (CST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
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Peter da Silva stands accused of saying:
>
> If you were going to emulate something, SCO's text-mode widget library
> for tcl might not be a bad idea.
Have you actually used this library? (I haven't, but I'm all ears. I
have SCO on a box at home; I guess I should look at it sometime 8)
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 21:01:28 1996
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <199612030500.XAA25945@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:00:16 -0600 (CST)
Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Reply-To: nobody@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030434.XAA18481@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Dec 2, 96 11:34:17 pm
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> Now here is an intelligent posting.
Now here is someone who couldn't recognize bleeding sarcasm if it
came up and bit him on the butt (which it clearly did, judging
from the reaction).
For future reference: that was "sarcasm".
Since it is a little difficult to hold a rational discussion with
someone who appears to be trying very hard to be an irritant, and
has already made his "opinions" known, I doubt that there is any
value in continuing this thread.
... JG
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 21:03:28 1996
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Cc: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 1996 19:02:00 PST."
<14423.849582120@time.cdrom.com>
References: <14423.849582120@time.cdrom.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 22:03:09 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <14423.849582120@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:
: We
: don't brag out about our lmbench numbers just as we don't walk around
: with our pants off carrying rulers and comparing penis lengths,
And even if we did, we wouldn't care how long or how wide they were,
so long as our current lover(s) were genuinely satisfied :-)
Warner
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 21:27:56 1996
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From: "Jeffery T. White" <zellion@cyberwind.com>
To: "Joe Greco" <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>,
"Julian Assange" <proff@suburbia.net>
Cc: <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:22:25 -0800
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There was an FAQ that dealt with this sort of [Linux Vs FreeBSD] question,
the final answer looked something like this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Is SO!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Is NOT!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Is SO!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Is NOT!
>>>>>>>>>>>>Is SO!
>>>>>>>>>>>Is NOT!
>>>>>>>>>>Is SO!
>>>>>>>>>Is NOT!
>>>>>>>>Is SO!
>>>>>>>Is NOT!
>>>>>>Is SO!
>>>>>Is NOT!
>>>>Is SO!
>>>Is NOT!
>>Is SO!
>Is NOT!
So the only two questions remain:
1. Who is the "Is SO" who is the "Is NOT"?
2. Did the "Is SO" or "Is NOT" folks win?
:-)
| Jeffery T. White
| email: zellion@cyberwind.com
|
| Cyberwind, The wind knows...
| http://www.cyberwind.com
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 21:31:36 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:28:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@freebsd.org,
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sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <199612030434.XAA18481@jenolan.caipgeneral>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, David S. Miller wrote:
> From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:19:50 -0600 (CST)
>
> Now here is an intelligent posting.
>
> Let the jerk win, because clearly Linux is superior.
>
> Benchmarks are always meaningful. Real world heavy
> duty applications mean nothing.
blah, blah, blah... blah, blah, blah blah...
>
> I've never skewed benchmarks, if you think I have then please support
> such claims. I'd be more than happy to be corrected. I run all of my
> benchmarks with both systems running on top of the same exact hardware
> configurations, sometimes the same exact machine using the same exact
> disk installed from scratch for both sides. How am I being impartial?
>
Just curious, what was the benchmark you ran? I can't remember it being
referenced in the thread..
I'd like to run it on a few machines (ranging from DEC Unix, to Ultrix..)
and see how my machines are performing. lmbench seems to be the implied
benchmark, but I'd like to know for sure =)
I'll give it a run on the 100MB/s net here, and the FDDI. Of course, the
PC's won't have the bus bandwidth to sustain transfer across the ATM
switch - but I'd like to make my own comparisons, whether the benchmark
represents the _real world_ of not is of no concern to me really. I know
how the machines perform during normal operation, I'm just curious about
how the benchmark will vary form OS to OS and from hardware to hardware!
Thanks,
-mark
---------------------------------------------------
| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com |
| RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark |
---------------------------------------------------
"To iterate is human, to recurse divine."
- L. Peter Deutsch
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 21:34:29 1996
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Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <199612030437.XAA18483@jenolan.caipgeneral>
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> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:17:34 -0500
> Message-Id: <199612030217.VAA18178@jenolan.caipgeneral>
> From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com
> CC: dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
> hackers@FreeBSD.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com,
> iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
> In-reply-to: <7184.849578160@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com)
> Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
[snip]
> And as for the marketdroid's tally sheet, that sells machines
> pinhead.
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, David S. Miller wrote:
> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:37:09 -0500
> From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au
> Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
> hackers@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
[snip]
> Personal attacks are not necessary, please stick to logical
> arguments.
Did he read chapter one of his logic 101 course in the past two hours, or
is this a group effort?
Either way,
% vi .procmailrc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or
jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html
#include <std_disclaimers.h> for my PGP key.
PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 21:41:48 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:41:39 -0700 (MST)
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <199612030437.XAA18483@jenolan.caipgeneral>
References: <199612030323.NAA08269@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
<199612030437.XAA18483@jenolan.caipgeneral>
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[
Removed the obnoxious Cc:, since everyone removed is already on
-hackers anyway. BTW David, the reason they're names are on the Cc list
is because they have followed up to the original posting to our mailing
list, and since group replies are the 'normal' way of doing email lists
they are included in followups. It's not a way of 'ganging' up on you,
just the way mailing lists work around here.
]
> If I sit down with an embedded
> processor system and any sort of network-alive RTOS, I can make
> your numbers look sick. How'd you like a negative TCP latency?
> It's not hard to do; nor is 100% medium occupancy.
>
> Are you offering full Unix (or POSIX, or some othe full featured
> system) semantics on that system? One of the things I am proud of is
> that I can pretty much fill a nice pipe, and retain all of the
> semantics of a full system.
Take a peek at QNX. You want a full system, or simply a sub-set of it?
You want real-time control *AND* the ability to run user-land
applications? How about DOS/Windows applications? You want to run the
hardware as fast as it will go? It can do it, so yes I can give you at
least one 'embedded' system that has most of what Linux has in terms of
user-land support (and tons more for kernel support) and still blows the
doors of *all* general-purpose x86 boxes.
However, it doesn't have 'swapping/paging', which makes it kind of
obnoxious for things such as WWW servers and the like. But, when you're
trying to guarantee response times and such, paging in from disk is
something you generally don't like to do. :(
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 21:47:05 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:45:12 -0500
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: mark@quickweb.com
CC: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@freebsd.org,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com, iain@sbs.de,
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In-reply-to: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961203001921.29153A-100000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
(message from Mark Mayo on Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:28:17 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:28:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
Just curious, what was the benchmark you ran? I can't remember it being
referenced in the thread..
I'd like to run it on a few machines (ranging from DEC Unix, to Ultrix..)
and see how my machines are performing. lmbench seems to be the implied
benchmark, but I'd like to know for sure =)
Yes, it is lmbench that I have been running most of the time. I use
"ttcp" once in a while as well, that can be obtained from:
ftp.sgi.com:/sgi/src/ttcp (I think thats it, you'll have to rummage around)
I'll give it a run on the 100MB/s net here, and the FDDI. Of course, the
PC's won't have the bus bandwidth to sustain transfer across the ATM
switch - but I'd like to make my own comparisons, whether the benchmark
represents the _real world_ of not is of no concern to me really. I know
how the machines perform during normal operation, I'm just curious about
how the benchmark will vary form OS to OS and from hardware to hardware!
Note that with PCI bus theoretically it can be made to keep with an
ATM interface with lots of operating system tricks such as page
flipping.
For FDDI, the latency numbers might not be so hot, depending upon how
low you have the "Token Hold Time" configured on all the cards on your
ring. And not that although a low token hold-time improves latencies
(many small quick transfers) it will hurt bandwidth and thus a high
token hold-time is recommended for high bandwidth usage.
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 21:50:44 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:46:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Snob Art Genre <ben@narcissus.ml.org>
To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@FreeBSD.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com,
iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <199612030217.VAA18178@jenolan.caipgeneral>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, David S. Miller wrote:
> And as for the marketdroid's tally sheet, that sells machines
> pinhead. If you think it does not, why does the government spec
Why do you come to our list and call a respected member of our community
a pinhead? You've been treated civilly; return the favor, please.
> lmbench numbers for all purchases these days? What concrete numbers
> are you able to put on that tally sheet? None, because whatever
> benchmarks the freebsd people are using to perform their improvements
> are under lock and key, most likely because once the Linux crowd had
> these at their disposal, we'd fix the problems they show because
> they'd be trivial. I'm not concerned.
>
> I think it is funny how the Linux crowd brags about numbers that
> anyone can grab the sources for and run for themselves. Whereas the
> freebsd people brag about performance characteristics that they claim
> _they_ can test and get numbers for, but the rest of the world has to
> wonder whether such benchmarks even exist.
Whatever. What evidence can you produce for this? It sounds to me like
you made it up. I haven't seen a whole lot of benchmark bragging from
FreeBSDers, nor from anyone else, really.
> So my performance translates into real world, so I don't want to hear
> your whining over this matter any more.
Where do you think you are? You are acting like the children one might
find on PC BBSs eight years ago.
> Oh yes, and our main Linux mail server btw runs SparcLinux, over a 100
> lists, the most active ones (say 10 or so) have many thousands of
> subscribers. It is multiuser, holds all my CVS sources, has a full
> FTP archive, and runs an actively used web server. Oh and btw, this
> is a dinky 40MHz SparcClassic (4k I and D caches, thats it) with 40MB
> of ram and two SCSI disks. The load never goes over 4.
This proves to me once again what I've believed for years: free unixes
are excellent.
> ---------------------------------------------////
> Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
> 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
> ethernet. Beat that! ////
> -----------------------------------------////__________ o
> David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
>
Ben
The views expressed above are not those of the Worker's Compensation
Board of Queensland, Australia.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 21:51:25 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:51:11 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199612030551.WAA02750@rocky.mt.sri.com>
From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <199612030434.XAA18481@jenolan.caipgeneral>
References: <199612030319.VAA25727@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
<199612030434.XAA18481@jenolan.caipgeneral>
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[ Wow, *that* was an obnoxious Cc: list ]
> Benchmarks are always meaningful. Real world heavy
> duty applications mean nothing.
>
> I've said nothing that asserts the statements you are making. I've
> said nothing to the effect that "Using FreeBSD is not a good idea." or
> that doing so would get you less performance than Linux or any other
> system for that matter.
>
> As for real world heavy duty applications, I did give examples of
> where those are in use, but you can certainly feel free to ignore
> those statements as others have as well.
You made statements of the like:
"I've run tests that did such and such"
OR
"I'll be running tests that emulate real-world loads"
OR
"I've got a SPARC box that can do 17MB through software RAID"
OR
"My SparcLinux boxes run News w/out problems"
But you haven't show an *real world* example of a known, heavily-loaded
system that is beat to death that you can point at and say "Look Ma, I
installed FooNix and it blew the doors off the same box that was running
BarNix".
I can claim all sorts of #'s as well, and even *prove* them under ideal
conditions, but when you can show me a box 'On the Net' that gets the
crap kicked out of it that isn't inside someone's testing network, then
I'll start to sit up and take notice.
Like Jordan said, put up an ftp server with some really cool software,
or setup a WWW site with nudie pictures and leave it up for a month or
so. Get back to us with the numbers and the hardware configuration.
Your 'tests' internally are obviously a good 'start' for tuning things,
but as with all things theoretical experiments are only as good as the
environment they are run in. In the 'real world' things happen that you
never expect that don't factor into 'in the lab' experiments.
Nate
> The real shame is that this rivalry is antagonistic.
>
> As I have stated above I am not being very antagonistic. I have not
> denounced FreeBSD once as anything which is inferior, or that Linux is
> superior.
And yet in your .sig
> ---------------------------------------------////
> Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
> 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
> ethernet. Beat that! ////
> -----------------------------------------////__________ o
Beat that! I don't see how *anyone* could read you as an antagonistic
person. Heck, and you're not even saying that Linux is superior
either. Give me a BREAK!
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 22:04:50 1996
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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:02:25 -0800 (PST)
From: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
To: Tom Torrance at home <tom@tomqnx.com>
cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Routing questions
In-Reply-To: <m0um9QN-0008NiC@TomQNX.tomqnx.com>
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Hi gang;
On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Tom Torrance at home wrote:
> You and those advising you to date are making something simple
> quite complex.
he is not kidding, who hid this searchlight under the bushelbasket!
> Set up a private network for your boss. Pick up Charles Mott's
> IP-aliasing version of IJPPP from:
>
> http://www.srv.net/~cmott/alias.html
>
> Compile it and set it up and you are in business.
>
> This is a drop-in capability to do what you want.
ok, the only thing i can't do with it yet that i really need to is
toss up xapps from the school computers onto my display on the fake
network seats. ping works, telnet works, but i cant get it to put up a
window:
becker1~>xload
Error: Can't open display: upstairs.home.here:0.0
becker1 is a dec alpha on the u.washington.edu domain, and
upstairs.home.here (10.0.0.2 on my network ) with my modem ( and
dynamically allocated ip address ) on mira.home.here (10.0.0.1 on my
network, ??? on the .u.washington.edu domain )
can this be done Tom?
> Regards,
>
> Tom
tnx again for pointing this out, i hope this enhancement can get
into 2.2....
*******************************************************************************
John Utz spaz@u.washington.edu
idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 22:05:58 1996
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 12:18:52 +1030."
<199612030148.MAA07524@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 22:05:47 -0800
Message-ID: <3105.849593147@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> HTML is too weak. We had this shot down last time 8( How do you plan
> do do, say, a progress indicator? (redirects? server push?)
I could say "we could use java" but then you'd just say "You said you
wanted to use lynx, you hypocrite", to which I could respond "damn,
why don't we just blow off the CUI users?" And then you'd say "Yeah,
right. Maybe in another year, after you've got X launching from
sysinstall and the screams from various old-timers has died down.
Besides, if we're willing to do that then we can just use Tk or XForms
or something." and I'd say "Grrrr, OK, you party-pooper!"
So I guess we're back to the pre-HTML arguments. :-)
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 22:06:59 1996
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
Cc: Tom Torrance at home <tom@tomqnx.com>, Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>,
hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Routing questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961202215051.14267A-100000@becker2.u.washington.edu>
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<Pine.OSF.3.95.961202215051.14267A-100000@becker2.u.washington.edu>
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> > You and those advising you to date are making something simple
> > quite complex.
>
> he is not kidding, who hid this searchlight under the bushelbasket!
I don't remember people telling me to date. Besides, I'm already
happily married so dating is out of the question. :) :) :)
> > Set up a private network for your boss. Pick up Charles Mott's
> > IP-aliasing version of IJPPP from:
> >
> > http://www.srv.net/~cmott/alias.html
> >
> > Compile it and set it up and you are in business.
> >
> > This is a drop-in capability to do what you want.
>
> ok, the only thing i can't do with it yet that i really need to is
> toss up xapps from the school computers onto my display on the fake
> network seats.
Am I the *only* stupid one around who has *no* idea on how to setup
Charles user-PPP. How do I setup the fake addresses and have them
correspond to real addresses? How do I setup the DNS and such? Where
did you folks find documentation on how the 'NAT' stuff works?
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 22:16:30 1996
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: How to unexport something
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 23:16:24 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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Is there an easy way to unexport something? I'd like to unmount my
JAZ drive, but it is exported...
Warner
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 22:26:01 1996
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To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@freebsd.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com,
iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 22:18:47 -0800
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:17:34 -0500
"David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> pinhead. If you think it does not, why does the government spec
> lmbench numbers for all purchases these days? What concrete numbers
We spec NASPAR benchmarks (home-grown, specifically to measure
performance of a system under our typical workload). I sort of
hold the opinion that "general purpose" benchmarks like lmbench
are fun to play with, but I certainly wouldn't claim one OS is
better than another based on "general purpose" benchmark numbers.
> is a dinky 40MHz SparcClassic (4k I and D caches, thats it) with 40MB
> of ram and two SCSI disks. The load never goes over 4.
Load average measures the average number of runnable processes. If
everyone's waiting for I/O to complete, well, they're not runnable...
Actually, specifically, load average is:
load avg = nrunnable + number of processes sleeping in \
uninterruptable sleeps for < 1 second.
So, your load average of 4 could be "lots of processes not runnable because
they're blocking on I/O" plus "a few process in uninterruptable disk wait" :-)
So, maybe you load average is yet another example of a meaningless Linux
number :-) My point is that claiming a load average number doesn't
really tell us anything. Why don't you tell us exactly what's going
on in the system. Then we might be impressed (depending on what
you tell us :-). As it stands, your bragging and number flashing
is, well, just annoying.
IMO, for the kind of work I do (kernel development), a much better
`benchmark' is to run a profiling kernel and then do a "make build"
(which is what NetBSD uses to build releases). With the profile
data, you can find places where you actually spend a significant
amount of time, and improve them. Sometimes the profiling results
are surprising.
I see Larry's on the Cc: now (amazing how these explode so we can
all prove our manlyness to an audience :-)... I saw him at SC'96,
and tried to bump into him a couple of times... never got a chance
to hook up with him... I was rather looking forward to arguing
about benchmarks :-)
Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 23:31:26 1996
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To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy)
cc: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
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Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 23:30:56 -0800
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David, please don't bait the FreeBSD folks. They don't seem to want
your help and aren't interested in a friendly competition. And while
you don't seem to see it, you are being pretty antagonistic. You have
the same problem I do - you assume that people know you are a good guy
with good intentions. Not the case, most people assume people they
haven't worked with are buttheads. Oh, and "all government contracts"
do not spec lmbench, only a few important ones like Diamond & ASCI.
FreeBSD folks, please don't beat up David for optimizing for the I/O
paths tested by lmbench. While I agree with the load vs no load points
raised, you are missing another one: smallness is goodness, and David
is almost always optimizing by making things smaller. There are plenty
of people shoveling stuff into the kernel making it slower - David is
making it smaller & faster, let him be, it's useful.
I'll try and get the focus on stuff that is closer to the FreeBSD ideal
of under load metrics in lmbench 2.0. (real soon now). You can help,
send in those specifications for what you want measured.
Oh, and one other thing, when David says "pinhead" it's a compliment.
It's what he calls Linus (and me when I don something useful). I dunno
why, but there you have it. David, this is a good example of how you
are perceived - people assumed you were insulting them and you weren't.
But reading "pinhead" at face value, it is sort of hard to take it as
a compliment. I certanly wouldn't unless I knew you.
--lm
Just say: not wanting to have any more flame wars in my mailbox...
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 23:37:27 1996
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199612030737.AAA29651@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: Ancient history...
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:37:23 -0700 (MST)
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Greetings!
I realize 12 months is a long time :> but does
anyone recall if there were any significant pty or
pipe implementation problems in the 2.1R code?
I've tried digging through the CVS record in 2.1.5R
but, alas, it doesn't exist :-(
Obviously, I'm having a problem with 2.1R and
it appears to be in one of these areas.
Thanx!
--don
From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 2 23:57:59 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:54:49 +0200 (EET)
From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@cs.Helsinki.FI>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>, dyson@FreeBSD.org,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org,
lm@engr.sgi.com, iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <14423.849582120@time.cdrom.com>
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Can we kill this before it really escalates? We had the same d*mn
discussion just a few months ago if I recall correctly? Nobody offered a
better benchmark then, nobody got any constructive done then, let's just
drop it.
I don't see why people get so hung up about a small bit of bragging in
somebodys signature. It's not as if the signature said
"FreeBSD is shit, look at our studly network numbers"
Instead, the dang thing is just a challenge to any other operating system.
In fact, as the numbers were gotten on Sparc hardware, I'd say they are
much more of a challenge to the SunOS/Solaris "performance group" people
(hah!) than FreeBSD.
I've seen lots of people say "competition is good" - in fact it seemed to
be one of the slogans for BSD people when people asked about the split of
Free/Open/NetBSD.
Was that just lip service? Get over it - either you ignore the benchmark
(in which case I don't see the point of flaming David over using it:
you'd be much better off doing your own benchmark), or you take it as a
challenge. Whining over it is just silly.
Now, if you were Solaris engineers, I could understand some bad feelings,
as David certainly hasn't been exactly polite about the fact that Sun has
performance problems. But as it is it all looks like flaming over nothing.
I'll try to ignore this thread as I'm still supposed to write my thesis.
(Too bad that writing a thesis is so boring that I have problems in _not_
responding to the silliest postings ;)
Linus
PS. Larry is hopefully making a new version of lmbench sometime in the
future. And guess what? I actually _hope_ that it shows that Linux has
some problems. I'm not in this game to bash on others, I'm in it to make
the best damn system there is.
So I really hope that the people who flame David could fine _another_
benchmark, and do a signature that says "FreeBSD does 102 million
FluxMarks(tm) per second - beat that!". I'd _like_ to have a new benchmark
we can put our teeth in. I never flamed anybody when lmbench used to show
that Linux sucked raw eggs in some areas (and yes, people rubbed my nose
in it, and not as politely or neutrally as Davids signature does). I took
it as a challenge.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 00:12:14 1996
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From: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
Message-Id: <199612030812.NAA00839@hq.icb.chel.su>
Subject: Does anybody need it ?
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:12:12 +0500 (ESK)
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Hi!
In order to use a FreeBSD box in our working environment I
did implemented an additional security feature in it. The question
is: would it be possible to commit these changes ?
The idea is to limit certain logins to be accessible from
certain hosts only. So I added a database that describes allowed
hosts, say /etc/userhost.conf, in format like:
*:host1,host2,host3
user1:host1,host4
user2:*
where * means `any user' or `any host'. Then added a function
userhostok(user,host)
char *user;
char *host;
that returns 0 if access is permitted or -1 if not, just like ruserok().
Then I added this call to /usr/sbin/login. Perhaps there are other
login-like programs that need this call to be added.
-SB
P.S. By the way, the limit of at most 200 users in one group and
the maximal length of record in /etc/group of 1024 characters are
TOO small. Perhaps they need to be multiplied by at least 10 to
be shure that they wouldn't make a problem.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 00:18:04 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:17:24 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Larry McVoy <lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com>
cc: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>,
FreeBSD Hackers <hackers@FreeBSD.org>, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi,
lm@relay.engr.SGI.COM, iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-Reply-To: <199612030730.XAA12001@neteng.engr.sgi.com>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Larry McVoy wrote:
> paths tested by lmbench. While I agree with the load vs no load points
> raised, you are missing another one: smallness is goodness, and David
> is almost always optimizing by making things smaller. There are plenty
> of people shoveling stuff into the kernel making it slower - David is
> making it smaller & faster, let him be, it's useful.
Many of us agree that small is good.
> I'll try and get the focus on stuff that is closer to the FreeBSD ideal
> of under load metrics in lmbench 2.0. (real soon now). You can help,
> send in those specifications for what you want measured.
Umm. How do you plan to similate 1200 simultaneous connections
downloading 100GB of Linux and FreeBSD per day in a micro benchmark?
Regards,
Mike Hancock
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 00:29:56 1996
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From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199612030841.JAA06919@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Subject: Re: ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff in netstat -r
In-Reply-To: <96Dec2.113555pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> from Bill Fenner at "Dec 2, 96 11:35:51 am"
To: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:41:07 +0100 (MET)
Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
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> In message <199612021748.SAA02955@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> you write:
> >This is obviously the broadcast address. What makes me think is that
> >I see this only on that one machine (running samba/WINS, BTW).
>
> Is that the only machine that has sent a broadcast recently?
No. A 3.0 machine (running as a router and WINS (samba) server)
should have sent them out too but doesn show this in the routes.
>
> Is that the only machine with an if_ether.c newer than rev 1.27
> (Feb. 5, 1996)?
No. The machine it was happening on has:
* @(#)if_ether.c 8.1 (Berkeley) 6/10/93
* $Id: if_ether.c,v 1.35 1996/11/15 18:50:31 fenner Exp $
*/
There are a lot of other machine built with that version of if_ether.c
in the net. Possibly only the one mentioned (router/samba WINS)
might have sent broadcasts recently as well.
>
> I think this is probably to be expected.
>
> Bill
--Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 00:47:19 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612030842.TAA09723@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
In-Reply-To: <199612030812.NAA00839@hq.icb.chel.su> from "Serge A. Babkin" at "Dec 3, 96 01:12:12 pm"
To: babkin@hq.icb.chel.su (Serge A. Babkin)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:12:09 +1030 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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Serge A. Babkin stands accused of saying:
>
> The idea is to limit certain logins to be accessible from
> certain hosts only. So I added a database that describes allowed
> hosts, say /etc/userhost.conf, in format like:
... you mean a bit like /etc/login.access? 8)
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 00:47:31 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:41:14 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199612030841.TAA24214@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: dgy@rtd.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Ancient history...
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> I realize 12 months is a long time :> but does
>anyone recall if there were any significant pty or
>pipe implementation problems in the 2.1R code?
Yes, there was one in tty_pty.c.
>I've tried digging through the CVS record in 2.1.5R
>but, alas, it doesn't exist :-(
Dig through the cvs record in -current. It goes back
to before 2.0. `cvs diff -r RELENG_2_1_0_RELEASE -r
RELENG_2_1_0 tty_pty.c' gives the fixes that you
probably need.
Bruce
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 01:13:05 1996
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From: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
Message-Id: <199612030911.OAA07969@hq.icb.chel.su>
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:11:07 +0500 (ESK)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030842.TAA09723@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Dec 3, 96 07:12:09 pm
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>
> Serge A. Babkin stands accused of saying:
> >
> > The idea is to limit certain logins to be accessible from
> > certain hosts only. So I added a database that describes allowed
> > hosts, say /etc/userhost.conf, in format like:
>
> ... you mean a bit like /etc/login.access? 8)
Yes! :-) Thanks, I did not known it. By some reason this feature is
not mentioned in login(1) manual page.
-SB
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 01:24:25 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:17:07 +0200 (EET)
From: Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net>
X-Sender: stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua
To: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
In-Reply-To: <199612030812.NAA00839@hq.icb.chel.su>
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Hello Serge,
> The idea is to limit certain logins to be accessible from
> certain hosts only. So I added a database that describes allowed
> hosts, say /etc/userhost.conf, in format like:
Sorry for straightforward question, but isn't a /etc/login.access
file (as like as login.access(5) manpage) already there?
They are on a 2.2-960612-SNAP; and this feature worked for me
last time I checked this in summer, even without using SKey (though
I recall that there was some minor problem in the rule parser).
> P.S. By the way, the limit of at most 200 users in one group and
> the maximal length of record in /etc/group of 1024 characters are
> TOO small. Perhaps they need to be multiplied by at least 10 to
> be shure that they wouldn't make a problem.
I agree wholeheartly with you here; probably default of up to 2048
users/group and 16k bytes would be Ok? (Hope it won't be too big
a waste of resources).
And another question: what about having /etc/group also
indexed in [s]pwd.db? having more than some 3-4k accounts on a system,
with (supposedly) a separate login group for each, + some people belonging
to several groups -- might cause a considerable slowdown at getgrent(3)
call.
--
Best,
Andrew Stesin
nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 01:53:14 1996
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From: Alan Cox <alan@cymru.net>
Message-Id: <199612030938.JAA20579@snowcrash.cymru.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:38:03 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, hackers@freebsd.org, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-Reply-To: <199612030551.WAA02750@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Dec 2, 96 10:51:11 pm
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> But you haven't show an *real world* example of a known, heavily-loaded
> system that is beat to death that you can point at and say "Look Ma, I
> installed FooNix and it blew the doors off the same box that was running
> BarNix".
Dave tell the man how many people are on the vger driven majordodo lists.
> Like Jordan said, put up an ftp server with some really cool software,
> or setup a WWW site with nudie pictures and leave it up for a month or
> so. Get back to us with the numbers and the hardware configuration.
Hehe.. Tempting but in the UK I'd have someone running off with the hardware
and a nice little man in a police outfit around in no time.
> > ethernet. Beat that! ////
> > -----------------------------------------////__________ o
> Beat that! I don't see how *anyone* could read you as an antagonistic
> person. Heck, and you're not even saying that Linux is superior
> either. Give me a BREAK!
It says "Beat that" why is that antagonistic - its only antagonistic if you
can't and it upsets you. I've certainly got no problem if you manage to beat
that or if you post
"2000 parallel ftp connections on one P6"
or whatever.
Alan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 02:13:46 1996
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199612031008.DAA07689@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: Re: Ancient history...
To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 03:08:03 -0700 (MST)
Cc: dgy@rtd.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030841.TAA24214@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Dec 3, 96 07:41:14 pm
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> > I realize 12 months is a long time :> but does
> >anyone recall if there were any significant pty or
> >pipe implementation problems in the 2.1R code?
>
> Yes, there was one in tty_pty.c.
Ah ha!
> >I've tried digging through the CVS record in 2.1.5R
> >but, alas, it doesn't exist :-(
>
> Dig through the cvs record in -current. It goes back
> to before 2.0. `cvs diff -r RELENG_2_1_0_RELEASE -r
Ah, I had assumed there was a break in the history
file introduced coincident with 2.1.5R ...
> RELENG_2_1_0 tty_pty.c' gives the fixes that you
> probably need.
Thanx alot!
--don
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 02:21:21 1996
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From: garyj@frt.dec.com
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To: Peter Mutsaers <plm@xs4all.nl>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: Message from Peter Mutsaers <plm@xs4all.nl> of 02 Dec 96
07:55:21 +0100.
Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com
Subject: Re: CTM, -current and patches
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plm@xs4all.nl writes:
> Hi,
>
> I run -current (sometimes) via CTM. Now I need some special patches
> (for ISDN on one system and PCMCIA on another) but then the checksums
> for CTM will fail and thus CTM updates will fail.
>
> How do others stay current and use patches to the standard source
> code? Is using CVS (and using cvs-current instead of src-current, or
> CVsup) the only way?
>
just copy the original file to <file-name>.ctm. ctm will then use
this when it has to apply patches. This works quite well, I have a
number of files which I've modified. The only problem is noticing
when the original file was changed and then looking at the mods for
applicability to your version (a good example is /sys/conf/files for me).
---
Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com
(home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de
(play) gj@freebsd.org
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 02:36:03 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612031035.VAA09981@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-Reply-To: <3105.849593147@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 2, 96 10:05:47 pm"
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 21:05:47 +1030 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying:
>
> So I guess we're back to the pre-HTML arguments. :-)
Tell me again why SCO wouldn't let us have Vtcl? Peter DaS
> Jordan
>
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 02:36:56 1996
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To: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 13:12:12 +0500."
<199612030812.NAA00839@hq.icb.chel.su>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 02:35:47 -0800
Message-ID: <5202.849609347@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> The idea is to limit certain logins to be accessible from
> certain hosts only. So I added a database that describes allowed
> hosts, say /etc/userhost.conf, in format like:
This sounds a lot like the functionality already provided by
tcpwrappers, though these admittedly are not a default part of the
system. Have you looked into this?
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 02:48:38 1996
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From: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
Message-Id: <199612031045.PAA20184@hq.icb.chel.su>
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:45:34 +0500 (ESK)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <5202.849609347@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Dec 3, 96 02:35:47 am
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>
> > The idea is to limit certain logins to be accessible from
> > certain hosts only. So I added a database that describes allowed
> > hosts, say /etc/userhost.conf, in format like:
>
> This sounds a lot like the functionality already provided by
> tcpwrappers, though these admittedly are not a default part of the
> system. Have you looked into this?
Really a wrapper can't do this: it knows only the port, not login
name. But it was already pointed to me that login.access already
does this. I was not the first one who needed it :-)
-SB
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 03:12:08 1996
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To: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 15:45:34 +0500."
<199612031045.PAA20184@hq.icb.chel.su>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 03:11:12 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Really a wrapper can't do this: it knows only the port, not login
> name. But it was already pointed to me that login.access already
Duh, sorry, I'm not thinking here..
Jordan
P.S. Login.access came as a surprise to me, too, though I wish that
Guido had actually included some examples in the man page. :-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 03:33:53 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 05:31:47 -0600
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Message-Id: <199612031131.FAA10606@bonkers.taronga.com>
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu
Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@engr.sgi.com, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Newsgroups: taronga.freebsd.hackers
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Dave: you're a fine one to complain about trolling. It's your sig file that
started the whole thing.
Everyone: This is an ex-horse. Look, it's nailed to its perch. You can
stop beating it now.
Self: I knew there was a reason for directing this list to a newsgroup. Kill
files are your friend.
--
</peter>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 03:55:27 1996
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From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net>
cc: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.961203105924.19203C-100000@creator.gu.kiev.ua>
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On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Andrew Stesin wrote:
>
> Hello Serge,
>
[snip]
>
> I agree wholeheartly with you here; probably default of up to 2048
> users/group and 16k bytes would be Ok? (Hope it won't be too big
> a waste of resources).
>
Hmm... I thought you could have several lines with one group?
Like in:
users:*:30000:user1,user2,user3,user4,user5,user6,....,user20
users:*:30000:user21,user22,user23,user24,...user40
etc.
Atleast for me it does work.
Sander
> And another question: what about having /etc/group also
> indexed in [s]pwd.db? having more than some 3-4k accounts on a system,
> with (supposedly) a separate login group for each, + some people belonging
> to several groups -- might cause a considerable slowdown at getgrent(3)
> call.
>
> --
> Best,
> Andrew Stesin
>
> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 04:12:37 1996
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From: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
Message-Id: <199612031207.RAA01265@hq.icb.chel.su>
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:07:42 +0500 (ESK)
Cc: stesin@gu.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961203132037.7732A-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> from "Narvi" at Dec 3, 96 01:24:27 pm
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> > I agree wholeheartly with you here; probably default of up to 2048
> > users/group and 16k bytes would be Ok? (Hope it won't be too big
> > a waste of resources).
> >
>
> Hmm... I thought you could have several lines with one group?
>
> Like in:
>
> users:*:30000:user1,user2,user3,user4,user5,user6,....,user20
> users:*:30000:user21,user22,user23,user24,...user40
>
> etc.
>
At least the getgr...() manpage says that its behavior is undefined
if there are several lines for the same group.
And would it work together with NIS ?
-SB
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 04:25:49 1996
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 23:26:23 +1100 (EDT)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com,
kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-Reply-To: <199612030410.XAA18471@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Dec 2, 96 11:10:51 pm
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In some mail from David S. Miller, sie said:
>
> Tell me, does Linux implement STREAMS in the kernel with a properly
> stacked network implementation, using DLPI and TLPI with fine grain
> mutexes and locks ?
>
> Oh yes, then we'll have real performance. Take a look at how many
> fastpaths and shortcuts the Solaris folks have to do to overcome the
> performance problems assosciated with streams. The Solaris
> performance people are constantly breaking their necks to find new
> ways to overcome these issues. If Ritchie couldn't get it right,
> perhaps this is good enough cause that it isn't such a hot idea, and
> that the implementation needs to be done differently (see below) or
> the entire idea trashed.
>
> Streams can be done at the user level with minimal kernel support.
>
> The only reason it is completely in the kernel in most commercial
> systems is that someone let it in there in the first place. It is
> very hard to "take out" something like that once it is in, especially
> in a commercial source tree.
>
> Fine grained mutexes and locks, yes that will indeed get you scaling
> better than a master lock implementation (which is what Linux has at
> the moment). But it is not a reasonable way to implement scalable SMP
> systems.
>
> For how I think it should be done, investigate the numerous papers
> available on non-blocking synchronization and (harder to find) self
> locking data structures.
Right. So comparing Linux performance to Solaris is like comparing apples
and oranges.
Comparing NetBSD/OpenBSD/FreeBSD performance would be more meaningful than
comparing Linux vs any of those three.
Darren
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 04:44:30 1996
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: How to unexport something
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 23:45:07 +1100 (EDT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030616.XAA25038@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Dec 2, 96 11:16:24 pm
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In some mail from Warner Losh, sie said:
>
>
> Is there an easy way to unexport something? I'd like to unmount my
> JAZ drive, but it is exported...
Hmmm, looks like you'd need to edit the exportfs file and restart mountd.
An "exportfs" interface similar to Sun's would be nice...
/usr/etc/exportfs [ -aiuv ] [ -o options ] [ pathname ]
OPTIONS
-a All. Export all pathnames listed in /etc/exports, or
if -u is specified, unexport all of the currently
exported pathnames.
-i Ignore the options in /etc/exports. Normally, exportfs
will consult /etc/exports for the options associated
with the exported pathname.
-u Unexport the indicated pathnames.
-v Verbose. Print each directory or filename as it is
exported or unexported.
-o options
Specify a comma-separated list of optional characteris-
tics for the pathname being exported. options can be
selected from among:
...
NetBSD could do with one of these too, if it is missing...
Usually, when something is added to /etc/exports, you just run
"exportfs -va" or if you wanted to export /usr/spool/mail you
could do "exportfs /var/spool/mail", etc.
Darren
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 05:04:01 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
Message-Id: <199612031302.AAA07300@suburbia.net>
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
In-Reply-To: <199612030812.NAA00839@hq.icb.chel.su> from "Serge A. Babkin" at "Dec 3, 96 01:12:12 pm"
To: babkin@hq.icb.chel.su (Serge A. Babkin)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 00:02:25 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> Hi!
>
> In order to use a FreeBSD box in our working environment I
> did implemented an additional security feature in it. The question
> is: would it be possible to commit these changes ?
>
> The idea is to limit certain logins to be accessible from
> certain hosts only. So I added a database that describes allowed
> hosts, say /etc/userhost.conf, in format like:
>
> *:host1,host2,host3
> user1:host1,host4
> user2:*
>
> where * means `any user' or `any host'. Then added a function
I don't like these solutions, though I'd be reluctant to say no
to anything that is functioning code even if it isn't optimal.
Ideally we should have a general authentication library that
performs matching of credentials and credential types seeking services.
Credentials are items such as tty, password authentication, various crypto-
graphic authenticators and groups of equivalient credentials.
Services are items such as finger, ftpd, shell, mail and grouping of services.
This is about as good a generic authentication scheme as you can achive without
resorting to mac esotrics.
Julian A.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 05:14:53 1996
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From: "Jukka A. Ukkonen" <jau@jau.tmt.tele.fi>
Message-Id: <199612031321.PAA24818@jau.tmt.tele.fi>
Subject: POSIX.4 style extended memory locking???
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:21:43 +0200 (EET)
Latin-Date: Marti III Decembrie a.d. MCMXCVI
Organization: Telemedia / Telecom Finland
Phone: +358-2040-4025 (office) / +358-400-606671 (mobile)
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Hi everybody!
Has anyone implemented POSIX.4 style mlockall() and munlockall()
for FreeBSD already?
Cheers,
// jau
------
/ Jukka A. Ukkonen, Telemedia / Telecom Finland
/__ M.Sc. (cs & sw-eng) Tel: (Work) +358-2040-4025
/ Internet: Jukka.Ukkonen@tele.fi (Mobile) +358-400-606671
/ Internet: jau@iki.fi (FAX) +358-2040-2712
v Internet: jau@nic.funet.fi (Home&Fax) +358-9-6215280
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 05:19:54 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:27:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Jamie Bowden <jamie@inna.net>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Routing questions
In-Reply-To: <199612030606.XAA02842@rocky.mt.sri.com>
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Nate Williams wrote:
> Am I the *only* stupid one around who has *no* idea on how to setup
> Charles user-PPP. How do I setup the fake addresses and have them
> correspond to real addresses? How do I setup the DNS and such? Where
> did you folks find documentation on how the 'NAT' stuff works?
No, you're not. I have never even considered userland ppp. I have always
used the kernel ppp. NAT is some else that I have never had to deal with.
I guess having enough IP's around makes one's life much easier.
Jamie Bowden
Network Administrator, TBI Ltd.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 05:30:08 1996
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Message-Id: <199612031332.IAA02939@phoenix.aristar.com>
Subject: installing booteasy AFTER???
To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:32:15 -0500 (EST)
From: mgessner@aristar.com
Organization: Aristar Software Development, Inc.
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Hi, all,
I've installed FreeBSD 2.1.5 on a customer's machine. It was REALLY
difficult since I could NOT get the FTP working to save my life!
So could someone answer some questions:
a) I know my ethernet card works OK, but when I go to set up FTP
as my medium, I have no end of problems. Mostly, after I type
in the network parameters (hostname, IP addresses, etc), it tells
me it can't get bin, docs, manpages, (and something else).
FWIW, here's what I told it:
Hostname: wang.aristar.com
Domain: aristar.com
Gateway: 10.0.0.1
Nameserver: 10.0.0.1
IP address: 10.0.0.64 (I have other machines on this network)
Network mask: 255.255.255.0 (auto generated)
On my FTP host, I had tried two things:
1) On my source machine, I mounted /dev/cd0a as
/usr/ftp/FreeBSD/2.1.5-RELEASE, and when
I was prompted to tell it where to login via ftp I told it
a) ftp://10.0.0.1/FreeBSD -- which didn't work
b) ftp://10.0.0.1/FreeBSD/2.1.5-RELEASE -- also didn't work
Anonymous FTP *IS* working, since I used it before to install
to another machine, using a) above, I think.
2) I'd also followed the instructions in Lehey's book
_The_Complete_FreeBSD_ regarding copying the distributions
to a location in /usr/ftp and those didn't work EITHER.
Also, the instructions in sysinstall look very much like Lehey's
(although I didn't try them verbatim).
What am I doing wrong here?
I'm the first to admit I know enough to be dangerous with some parts
of this, but I've been doing Unix work for several years now, and only
recently started to do all this sysadmin work. I just don't know a
lot about the inner workings of routers and gateways at this point, and
work keeps me too busy to read up on all of it.
b) I installed the kernel on wd1a, as wd0 has DOS on it and I don't
have permission yet to kill it (when I do, I'll just make it a
/home partition probably). How can I install booteasy on to the
boot sector of the first drive (now C:)? i.e. what is the command
line that sysinstall uses to do that -or- how can I cause it to
happen from inside sysinstall. The sysinstall help file (the one
that gives all the commands that you can issue from the command
line like: sysinstall var=... command...) doesn't seem to me to
indicate how to do this. I don't have a terrible amount of time
invested in this, so if I *had* to do this all over again, I could.
(Although, at this moment, the thought doesn't get me all warm and
fuzzy!)
Thanks for reading this. I'll be looking forward to replies.
Bye!
Matt Gessner, <mgessner@aristar.com>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 05:34:20 1996
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Posted-Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:33:54 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:33:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Branson Matheson <branson@ferginc.com>
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To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: How to unexport something
In-Reply-To: <199612031244.EAA09594@freefall.freebsd.org>
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On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Darren Reed wrote:
> In some mail from Warner Losh, sie said:
> >
> >
> > Is there an easy way to unexport something? I'd like to unmount my
> > JAZ drive, but it is exported...
>
> Hmmm, looks like you'd need to edit the exportfs file and restart mountd.
>
> An "exportfs" interface similar to Sun's would be nice...
Actually ... all you need to do is edit the /etc/exports file and
then "Kick" mountd ( kill -HUP {mountd-pid} ). You can use the
showmount -e localhost to verify what is exported and what is not.
Killing the daemon off is not necessary.
-branson
=============================================================================
Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If you're falling off a
System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | mountian, you might as well
Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@ferginc.com | attempt to fly. -Delenn
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 05:34:26 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612031333.IAA01138@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: torvalds@cs.Helsinki.FI (Linus Torvalds)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:33:48 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, dyson@FreeBSD.org,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org,
lm@engr.sgi.com, iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.961203093548.16867D-100000@linux.cs.Helsinki.FI> from "Linus Torvalds" at Dec 3, 96 09:54:49 am
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>
> PS. Larry is hopefully making a new version of lmbench sometime in the
> future. And guess what? I actually _hope_ that it shows that Linux has
> some problems. I'm not in this game to bash on others, I'm in it to make
> the best damn system there is.
>
I use LMBENCH for the same reason on FreeBSD, and it is useful, but I don't
think that it is valuable to use in marketing hype. Frankly, the discussions
that I had with you caused me to waste time working on low level
perf -- and in reality gained nothing but improved lmbench results. The
system is not significantly faster in the real world for the reason of that
specific work. Yet with a different view of things, I have done more for real
world performance in a few days what two months of low level optimizations
did.
I believe that it is best to let the users who care about perf and
stability to test/use FreeBSD and Linux side by side. We win
alot of those comparisons hands-down. If people don't care about
performance, then they can choose NT or Linux or whatever their
evangelist coworkers use (to keep peer pressure under control.)
We have some OS/2 people at work, and they are irritating, not because
their OS isn't good, but because they are just irritating trying to
say how good their OS is.
FreeBSD has vulnerabilities also, but citing lmbench results tells such
a small part of the story that it almost misinforms. Many times a
low level benchmark that shows a 10% difference actually means a .1%
difference in the real world, and other factors overshadow that easily.
I know how to interpret lmbench, but many people out there might think
that it is the be-all end-all of benchmarks. Horsepower in a car isn't
either. It is how the car works (at least for me.)
I have heard claims that low level performance measures some kind of
"quality.", so be it, I measure quality by things (programs, not
necessarily benchmarks) working and working quickly.
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 05:35:08 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:30:04 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mark Powell <M.S.Powell@ais.salford.ac.uk>
To: Hans Zuidam <hans@brandinnovators.com>
cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Problems building 2.2-current
In-Reply-To: <199612030940.KAA27169@truk.brandinnovators.com>
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On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Hans Zuidam wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Most likely your suffering from the dreaded ``signal 11'' bad memory
> problem. I'm having these too with more or less intermittent
> occurences. The problem seems to be a bad memory chip somewhere.
> Another cause could be overheating. None of the memory test programs
> I used seemed to be able to find anything bad. They never do unless
> the chip is a smelly brown blob ;-) Also look at:
> <http://www.bitwizard.nl/sig11/>. When things got really bad I
That URL doesn't seem to work.
> reseated all simms and that made the sig11s go away... only to
> reappear after a while.
Hhhhm. I've had such a memory problem before. Then it was bad cache RAM
which caused intermittent signal 11. However, that's been fixed and these
problems only occur during a compile. The system "seems" to work perfectly
otherwise. Also some of the signals the compile were failing on were: 6, 4
etc. Does this still sound like RAM?
Mark Powell - Unix Information Officer - Clifford Whitworth Building
A.I.S., University of Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK.
Tel: +44 161 745 5936 Fax: +44 161 736 3596
Email: mark@salford.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key)
<A HREF="http://www.ucsalf.ac.uk/~mark/">Home Page</A>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 05:40:09 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612031336.IAA01158@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:36:28 -0500 (EST)
Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
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In-Reply-To: <199612030730.XAA12001@neteng.engr.sgi.com> from "Larry McVoy" at Dec 2, 96 11:30:56 pm
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> FreeBSD folks, please don't beat up David for optimizing for the I/O
> paths tested by lmbench. While I agree with the load vs no load points
> raised, you are missing another one: smallness is goodness, and David
> is almost always optimizing by making things smaller. There are plenty
> of people shoveling stuff into the kernel making it slower - David is
> making it smaller & faster, let him be, it's useful.
>
BTW, that is our emphasis also (in the VM code), and we are really
fast. We are interested in friendly competition, but not interested
in bragging. Some people take offense to bragging.
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 06:38:49 1996
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From: Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Message-Id: <199612031436.JAA19505@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
To: babkin@hq.icb.chel.su (Serge A. Babkin)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:36:28 -0500 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, stesin@gu.net, narvi@haldjas.folklore.se
In-Reply-To: <199612031207.RAA01265@hq.icb.chel.su> from "Serge A. Babkin" at Dec 3, 96 05:07:42 pm
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Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Serge A. Babkin
had to walk into mine and say:
> > > I agree wholeheartly with you here; probably default of up to 2048
> > > users/group and 16k bytes would be Ok? (Hope it won't be too big
> > > a waste of resources).
> > >
> >
> > Hmm... I thought you could have several lines with one group?
> >
> > Like in:
> >
> > users:*:30000:user1,user2,user3,user4,user5,user6,....,user20
> > users:*:30000:user21,user22,user23,user24,...user40
> >
> > etc.
> >
>
> At least the getgr...() manpage says that its behavior is undefined
> if there are several lines for the same group.
This might work only halfway. When trying to lookup a group in order
to learn all its members, it will fail: only the first line will match,
and the second one will be ignored. When looking to see if a particular
user is a member of a group, it might work since the search is for a
particular username rather than a group name.
Netgroups may be cascaded in order to overcome the 1024 line size limit.
Normal groups may not. Netgroups are also useful for limiting login access
to machines.
> And would it work together with NIS ?
No. The backend of ypserv is a hash database, and unlike /etc/pwd.db
and /etc/spwd.db, it doesn't have the original data encoded three times
(i.e. for getpwnam(), getpwuid() and getpwent()). It has each entry
encoded just once; having two entries in a hash database with the same
key doesn't work, so having two groups with the same name is impossible.
The yp_mkdb command watches for entries with duplicate keys and discards
the dupe when it catches it (generating a warning message in the process).
And before someone asks, no you can's change NIS to allow longer records.
There's a 1024 byte limit on keys and data inherent in the RPC protocol
definition for NIS v2 (which I think stems from the ndbm library only
allowing 1024 bytes for keys and data): if you change this and rebuild
the system, you will break compatibility with all other NIS
implementations on the planet.
Now, libnisdb, the backend of rpc.nisd for NIS+, allows duplicate
database entries and doesn't have a 1024 byte limit on record sizes.
(The libnisdb I wrote as part of the FreeBSD NIS+ project also allows
duplicates.) However I'm not sure that rpc.nisd itself allows duplicate
records; it may enforce a restriction independent of what the library
permits.
-Bill
--
=============================================================================
-Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu
Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research
Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City
=============================================================================
"It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness"
=============================================================================
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 06:42:49 1996
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From: "Thomas D.G. Sandford" <tdgsandf@prds-grn.demon.co.uk>
Message-Id: <199612031312.NAA09566@prds-grn>
Subject: FreeBSD / Wine / MSOffice
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, t.d.g.sandford@prds-grn.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:12:54 +0000 (GMT)
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During a discussion on comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine about running MS Office
applications under FreeBSD/Wine, Linus Torvalds sent me the following email.
I am posting it here (with his permission) in the hopes that someone may be
able to do something about it (if it is not already in 2.2 / -current - I
am still using 2.1.5-R).
Please note - I don't subscribe to -hackers, so if you want me to see a
reply, please cc it to me.
----- Forwarded message from Linus Torvalds -----
From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux.cs.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:51:01 +0200
Message-Id: <199611291051.MAA03824@linux.cs.Helsinki.FI>
To: t.d.g.sandford@prds-grn.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: FreeBSD - MS Office
Newsgroups: comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine
In-Reply-To: <57il2h$in@prds-grn.demon.co.uk>
References: <3298ED79.41C67EA6@nz.eds.com> <57diu3$8t@prds-grn.demon.co.uk> <329B9FEB.41C67EA6@nz.eds.com>
In article <57il2h$in@prds-grn.demon.co.uk> you write:
>
>FreeBSD only makes a limited number of user LDT's available. You get this
>message when they run out (as well as if you have failed to build an
>appropriate kernel). Exhausting the LDT's has however, in my experience,
>always been the result of a memory leak in wine.
Note that Linux used to do that too. Then the Wabi people told me that
real applications need more LDT's.
So if FreeBSD wants to serve all real applications, it needs eventually
to expand the LDT. Right now the problems _may_ be due to leaks in Wine,
but one day they are going to be real..
Linus
----- End of forwarded message from Linus Torvalds -----
--
Thomas Sandford | t.d.g.sandford@prds-grn.demon.co.uk
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 07:27:40 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:21:52 +0100
From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
References: <14423.849582120@time.cdrom.com> <199612030419.XAA18477@jenolan.caipgeneral>
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According to David S. Miller:
> Someone made the choice to comment loudly about my .sig, they could
> have just as well ignored it and not CC:'d their comments to me on top
> of it.
Whatever goes into your .signature, it is too long anyway. The Netiquette
recommends no more than 4 lines.
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 07:31:19 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:28:30 -0600
From: bdodson@beowulf.utmb.edu (M. L. Dodson)
Message-Id: <199612031528.JAA10819@beowulf.utmb.EDU>
To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
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Hi,
If you guys decide to pursue the Alpha port (and I hope you do),
please give due consideration to the several reasons why people
might want to run Alphas instead of, e.g., PPros. One major reason
is for serious number crunching. To that end, I would like to see
g77 integrated into the gcc/cc which ships with the system. The
relationship of g77 (which makes changes to the gcc backend to
support Fortran) to the system gcc/cc (which is not compiled as a
Gnu project gcc) has never been very clear to me. On 2.1.5R, I
compiled the g77 port (which compiled and installed fine), but it
would not run (could not find the proper backend; I did not pursue
it further as my work machine is not running FBSD, primarily because
I need to do these kinds of things). And I have been hesitant to
just do a regular Gnu installation because I did not want to break
the system compiler.
f2c and the f77 f2c front end shipped by default with the system
may be OK for casual code, but, as I understand it, g77 at the
0.5.18 level, at least, is now considerably faster. Even minor
speed advantages are important for number crunchers. I know this
version is quite a bit more successful in compiling some old DEC
Fortran code I have than was an earlier version.
I don't necessarily need Fortran in the base system (I doubt any
part of BSD is written in Fortran), but I would like to see g77
support in the base system compiler with an option to install it.
f2c can stay in as well as the f77 front end to f2c. But there
should be an option for a very current version of g77 (it is
changing quite a bit at each minor version number) that is totally
consistent and integrated with the system c compiler. This type
of layered installation has obvious parallels with the discussion
of the inclusion of perl in the base system.
Failing that, even a statement in the documentation that no part
of the build the world procedure invokes gcc as such, but always
calls it cc, would be useful. Then I could just install gcc/g77
by the regular Gnu installation procedure and be confident I was
not breaking the base system. (gcc would invoke the g77-modified
backend, but cc would use the system backend). Full integration
would be better, however.
Maybe I'm just confused, but thanks for these considerations
anyway. Cost per floating point performance unit for these kinds
of systems make them very attractive in my line of work, but
the software has to be there to use that performance.
Bud Dodson
--
M. L. Dodson bdodson@scms.utmb.edu
409-772-2178 FAX: 409-772-1790
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 07:48:39 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:50:37 +0100 (MET)
From: "didier@omnix.fr.org" <didier@omnix.fr.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
cc: hardware@freebsd.org
Subject: Seagate ST34371W drives
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do you have any experience with these drives ?
do you know if they are ok with FreeBSD 2.1.5R
thanks for your help
--
Didier Derny
didier@omnix.fr.org
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 07:53:21 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:48:49 +0200 (EET)
From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
cc: stesin@gu.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Does anybody need it ?
In-Reply-To: <199612031207.RAA01265@hq.icb.chel.su>
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On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Serge A. Babkin wrote:
> > > I agree wholeheartly with you here; probably default of up to 2048
> > > users/group and 16k bytes would be Ok? (Hope it won't be too big
> > > a waste of resources).
> > >
> >
> > Hmm... I thought you could have several lines with one group?
> >
> > Like in:
> >
> > users:*:30000:user1,user2,user3,user4,user5,user6,....,user20
> > users:*:30000:user21,user22,user23,user24,...user40
> >
> > etc.
> >
>
> At least the getgr...() manpage says that its behavior is undefined
> if there are several lines for the same group.
How would I perceive it acting in an undefined manner? If I don't notice
anything different appart from the orinary behavioure, then it does indeed
work for me.
>
> And would it work together with NIS ?
>
I can't even check that - I don't use NIS. So I have no way of knowing.
Sander
> -SB
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 08:19:01 1996
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To: "Thomas D.G. Sandford" <tdgsandf@prds-grn.demon.co.uk>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD / Wine / MSOffice
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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At 01:12 PM 12/3/96 +0000, you wrote:
>During a discussion on comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine about running MS Office
>applications under FreeBSD/Wine, Linus Torvalds sent me the following email.
>
>I am posting it here (with his permission) in the hopes that someone may be
>able to do something about it (if it is not already in 2.2 / -current - I
>am still using 2.1.5-R).
>
>Please note - I don't subscribe to -hackers, so if you want me to see a
>reply, please cc it to me.
>
>
>----- Forwarded message from Linus Torvalds -----
>From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux.cs.helsinki.fi>
>Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:51:01 +0200
>Message-Id: <199611291051.MAA03824@linux.cs.Helsinki.FI>
>To: t.d.g.sandford@prds-grn.demon.co.uk
>Subject: Re: FreeBSD - MS Office
>Newsgroups: comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine
>In-Reply-To: <57il2h$in@prds-grn.demon.co.uk>
>References: <3298ED79.41C67EA6@nz.eds.com>
<57diu3$8t@prds-grn.demon.co.uk> <329B9FEB.41C67EA6@nz.eds.com>
>
>In article <57il2h$in@prds-grn.demon.co.uk> you write:
>>
>>FreeBSD only makes a limited number of user LDT's available. You get this
>>message when they run out (as well as if you have failed to build an
>>appropriate kernel). Exhausting the LDT's has however, in my experience,
>>always been the result of a memory leak in wine.
>
>Note that Linux used to do that too. Then the Wabi people told me that
>real applications need more LDT's.
>
>So if FreeBSD wants to serve all real applications, it needs eventually
>to expand the LDT. Right now the problems _may_ be due to leaks in Wine,
>but one day they are going to be real..
>
> Linus
What hard times are these when "Windows applications:" are
the definition of "real" applications.
Dennis
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 08:25:18 1996
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 09:26:29 -0700
From: Sean Kelly <kelly@fsl.noaa.gov>
Organization: NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to unexport something
References: <199612030616.XAA25038@rover.village.org>
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Warner Losh wrote:
> Is there an easy way to unexport something? I'd like to unmount my
> JAZ drive, but it is exported...
Isn't it enough to edit /etc/exports, and then kill -1 `cat
/var/run/mountd.pid` ?
--
Sean Kelly
NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov
Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 08:28:45 1996
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From: Darren Davis <DARREND@novell.com>
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu
Cc: dennis@etinc.com, dyson@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, kpneal@pobox.com
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging -Reply
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>>> "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu> 12/02/96 09:37pm>>>
Are you offering full Unix (or POSIX, or some othe full featured
system) semantics on that system? One of the things I am proud of is
that I can pretty much fill a nice pipe, and retain all of the
semantics of a full system.
Have I missed something here? When has Linux passed SPEC 1170 or
any other conformance specification suite? Be very carefull when you
state "offering full Unix or POSIX semantics". Unix means passing a very
specific set of conformance tests!
---
Darren R. Davis
Senior Software Engineer
Novell, Inc.
These thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 08:34:50 1996
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From: mark@plato.salford.ac.uk (Mark Powell)
Subject: 2.2-current page fault panics
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: 3 Dec 1996 16:33:16 -0000
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Been running 2.2-960801-SNAP since in came out with no problems. Wanted to
get current so I pulled down the source and applied all the ctm updates
as of yesterday. The new kernel now falls over under high disk activity/load.
Going back to the 960801-SNAP returns me to a stable system. It's a PCI
Pentium 166 with a AHA 7880 on board. Is this trace of the lastest vmcore
useful?
(kgdb) bt
#0 0xf010e323 in boot ()
#1 0xf010e5e2 in panic ()
#2 0xf0187bda in trap_fatal ()
#3 0xf01876c8 in trap_pfault ()
#4 0xf01873af in trap ()
#5 0xf0185b97 in pmap_remove_pages ()
#6 0xf0108073 in exit1 ()
#7 0xf0107f34 in exit ()
#8 0xf0187e73 in syscall ()
#9 0x80a450d in ?? ()
Cannot access memory at address 0xefbfdcf0.
(kgdb)
Cheers.
--
Mark Powell - Unix Information Officer - Clifford Whitworth Building
A.I.S., University of Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK.
Tel: +44 161 745 5936 Fax: +44 161 736 3596
Email: mark@salford.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key)
<A HREF="http://www.ucsalf.ac.uk/~mark/">Home Page</A>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 08:52:38 1996
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From: John Dyson <dyson@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612031651.LAA01608@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 2.2-current page fault panics
To: mark@plato.salford.ac.uk (Mark Powell)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:51:55 -0500 (EST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <m0vUxmc-00036vC@viking.ucsalf.ac.uk> from "Mark Powell" at Dec 3, 96 04:33:16 pm
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>
> Been running 2.2-960801-SNAP since in came out with no problems. Wanted to
> get current so I pulled down the source and applied all the ctm updates
> as of yesterday. The new kernel now falls over under high disk activity/load.
> Going back to the 960801-SNAP returns me to a stable system. It's a PCI
> Pentium 166 with a AHA 7880 on board. Is this trace of the lastest vmcore
> useful?
>
The trace is very useful, what kinds of things was your system doing?
John
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From: Mark Powell <M.S.Powell@ais.salford.ac.uk>
To: dyson@freebsd.org
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2.2-current page fault panics
In-Reply-To: <199612031651.LAA01608@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, John Dyson wrote:
> > Been running 2.2-960801-SNAP since in came out with no problems. Wanted to
> > get current so I pulled down the source and applied all the ctm updates
> > as of yesterday. The new kernel now falls over under high disk activity/load.
> > Going back to the 960801-SNAP returns me to a stable system. It's a PCI
> > Pentium 166 with a AHA 7880 on board. Is this trace of the lastest vmcore
> > useful?
> >
> The trace is very useful, what kinds of things was your system doing?
Its fallen over 3 times now. First 2 running 'make world'. The last (which
you saw the trace for) was running SATAN over an entire subnet (one of our
own :->)
Mark Powell - Unix Information Officer - Clifford Whitworth Building
A.I.S., University of Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK.
Tel: +44 161 745 5936 Fax: +44 161 736 3596
Email: mark@salford.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key)
<A HREF="http://www.ucsalf.ac.uk/~mark/">Home Page</A>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 09:27:58 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612031706.KAA14212@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:06:11 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <7043.849577026@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Dec 2, 96 05:37:06 pm
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> > > Yeah, like this will ever happen. :-)
> >
> > Well, it certainly won't if people keep implementing "user interface library
> > of the day". 8-(.
>
> Yeah, but who in their right mind is going to reverse-engineer all of
> wksh, either? I don't see any source code, and that's a much tougher
> row to hoe than simply writing a simple "GUI toolkit."
This is *such* a huge argument for grammar-based tools (which may not
be efficient to the nth cycle, but which can be easily modified) that
it almost isn't worth talking about.
I'll also point out that the "GUI toolkits" have all been largely
unsuccessful (though I haven't released my "yet another gui tool"
yet -- think that one's the charm?). Enough that the fundamental
concept needs to be questioned somewhat before someone unleashes
another one on an unsuspecting (and largely disinterested) world.
My opinion, anyway...
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs."
-- Robert Firth
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 09:45:18 1996
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: tony@nlanr.net (Tony Sterrett), hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Driver help
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 11:27:06 +1030."
<199612030057.LAA06521@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 11:44:34 -0600
From: "Eric L. Hernes" <erich@lodgenet.com>
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Michael Smith writes:
> - You should use uiomove because it's wise to the type of the
> destination; for destinations in kernel space it will use bcopy()
> rather than copyout(), and it understands fragmented destinations
> (ie. readv()/writev()).
> IMHO, using copyin/out in drivers is bogus in most cases.
I agree, but people porting drivers from a sysV derrivative, may want
to have a driver that will compile and work on either machine. I've
used a set of macros tucked away in the ifdef section like:
#ifdef __FreeBSD__
#define uio_in uiomove
#define uio_out uiomove
#else /* probably SCO */
#define uio_out(base, n, uio) copyout(base, uio.u_base, n); \
uio.u_base+=n; uio.u_offset+=n; uio.u_count-=n
#define uio_in(base, n, uio) copyin(uio.u_base, base, n); \
uio.u_base+=n; uio.u_offset+=n; uio.u_count-=n
#endif
I've also done similar things with the dma kernel support functions. Usually,
the driver ends up looking more BSDish than SCOish, but isn't that how God
intended? ;-)
>
>--
>]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
>]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
>]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
>]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
>]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
>
eric.
--
erich@lodgenet.com
http://rrnet.com/~erich erich@rrnet.com
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 10:25:18 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:24:42 +0200 (EET)
From: Oleg N Panashchenko <helg@tav.kiev.ua>
Message-Id: <199612031824.UAA17981@tav.kiev.ua>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Organization: Maxis Labs
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In article <199612020315.DAA13781@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> you wrote:
: A Linux zealot has the following in his sig - what's our current ability?
: ---------------------------------------------////
: Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
: 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
: ethernet. Beat that! ////
Below is the summary of results, which were published in newsgroup
relcom.fido.ru.unix, subject "Samba performance" about a month ago.
Test was the following:
$ ftp localhost
$ get /kernel /dev/null
(For Windows 'nul' instead of '/dev/null' was used. File sizes
were about 1M. The second column is ftp transfer speed in bytes per second.
System BPS Reported by
--------------------------------------------------------
FreeBSD 2.0.5/486dx4-100 1900 odip@bionet.nsc.ru
FreeBSD 2.1.0/486DX2-66 2300 Andry_Lun@p0.f1.n5039.z2.fidonet.org
FreeBSD 2.1.5/486DX4/100 2410 ego@pluto.iis.nsk.su
FreeBSD 2.1.5/P90 7400 helg@tav.kiev.ua
FreeBSD 2.1-stable (P5/166) 9300 jt@sw.ru
FreeBSD 2.1.5/P100 10330 amb@elvisti.kiev.ua
RedHat Linux 2.1/P75 1200 Eugeny_Kuzakov@p321.f8.n5004.z2.fidonet.org
Linux 2.1.5, Am5x86 1300 ak@uks.glasnet.ru
Linux 2.0.25 P100 4300 Jim_Smelyansky@p0.f1.n4651.z2.fidonet.org
Linux 2.1.7/NetGen 9300 alik@goblin.adam.kiev.ua
Windows NT WS 3.51/P90 411 jt@sw.ru
Alphaserver 1000 RedHat Linux 780 os2@kharkiv.net
AIX 3.2.5 rs6000/355 787 os2@kharkiv.net
SparcLinux 2.0.22 (SS5/85) 990 jt@sw.ru
Windows NT Server 4.0/P133 3200 helg@tav.kiev.ua
HP 9000 K220, 1 PA7200 100Mhz, 128Mb 3737 andrey@frigate.inteh.kazan.su
UltraSPARC 167, SEAGATE-ST19171N 6800 jt@sw.ru
SunOS Ultra 5.5.1 sun4u, sparc SUNUW 22000 jt@sw.ru
------------------------------------------------------------
Please, don't start a flamewar, don't beat me claiming that these digits
say nothing - I agree with you. It is just very easy to run this test
at any machine where you have shell account and get result immediately.
Oleg
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 10:25:30 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612031806.LAA14334@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: frankd@yoda.fdt.net (Frank Seltzer)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:06:15 -0700 (MST)
Cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961202220957.535A-100000@Kryten.nina.org> from "Frank Seltzer" at Dec 2, 96 10:30:11 pm
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> In noting the .edu domain of your address, I originally thought that
> you might be a college student. I now believe that I am addressing the
> janitor in the Computer Science Department.
Actually, the CS department janitor I know is more clueful than
many of the people graduating with degrees. At the very least,
he has more hands-on experience than they do. He would also be
a better choice for a UNIX system admin than most of the students,
if you were a commercial company looking for someone like that.
This is not to say that I think Archimedes Plutonium knows what he's
talking about...
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 10:32:06 1996
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Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:42:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Jake Hamby <jehamby@lightside.com>
X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1
To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: "Thomas D.G. Sandford" <tdgsandf@prds-grn.demon.co.uk>,
hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD / Wine / MSOffice
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961203111854.00b37100@etinc.com>
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On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, dennis wrote:
> >So if FreeBSD wants to serve all real applications, it needs eventually
> >to expand the LDT. Right now the problems _may_ be due to leaks in Wine,
> >but one day they are going to be real..
> >
> > Linus
>
> What hard times are these when "Windows applications:" are
> the definition of "real" applications.
I interpreted that as "real Windows applications", in other words a
Windows application of any real size (NOT Solitaire :-). I sincerely
doubt Linus meant what you're suggesting, at least I hope not!
-- Jake
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 10:58:31 1996
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To: dyson@freebsd.org
From: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy)
cc: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu,
jkh@time.cdrom.com, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
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Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 10:58:06 -0800
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: > FreeBSD folks, please don't beat up David for optimizing for the I/O
: > paths tested by lmbench. While I agree with the load vs no load points
: > raised, you are missing another one: smallness is goodness, and David
: > is almost always optimizing by making things smaller. There are plenty
: > of people shoveling stuff into the kernel making it slower - David is
: > making it smaller & faster, let him be, it's useful.
: >
: BTW, that is our emphasis also (in the VM code), and we are really
: fast. We are interested in friendly competition, but not interested
: in bragging. Some people take offense to bragging.
Hey, John, take the high road. You've heard the old saying: numbers
talk, bullshit walks. If you have something that you think is better,
then write a benchmark, post it with the FreeBSD results, and sit back
and wait for Linux to get stomped. That shows you as the bigger person,
the smarter person, the better coder.
Complaining about someone else's bragging and suggesting that you have
better numbers without producing those numbers sort of looks like sour
grapes. I know you're better than that, so let's have some numbers that
show how much better. I know you don't like lmbench - but you have yet
to produce a single benchmark that you consider more useful. Come on,
I know you can do it, stop talking and start writing and let's see some
data.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 11:02:27 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612031843.LAA14375@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:43:00 -0700 (MST)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, dyson@freebsd.org, dennis@etinc.com,
kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-Reply-To: <199612030410.XAA18471@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Dec 2, 96 11:10:51 pm
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Of shoes, and ships, and sealing wax...
Of SMP, and streams...
Of the RT kernel threading message push...
And the concurrency of Things...
> Tell me, does Linux implement STREAMS in the kernel with a properly
> stacked network implementation, using DLPI and TLPI with fine grain
> mutexes and locks ?
>
> Oh yes, then we'll have real performance. Take a look at how many
> fastpaths and shortcuts the Solaris folks have to do to overcome the
> performance problems assosciated with streams. The Solaris
> performance people are constantly breaking their necks to find new
> ways to overcome these issues. If Ritchie couldn't get it right,
> perhaps this is good enough cause that it isn't such a hot idea, and
> that the implementation needs to be done differently (see below) or
> the entire idea trashed.
The problem with streams is that it runs in user context in most
(bad) implementations. Moving it to user space won't fix this
problem, it will codify it for all time.
A streams in a RT-aware kernel, or a kernel running it as a kernel
thread and supporting kernel preemption and prioritization would
tell a significantly different story.
The speed of streams is relative to the number of stack/boundry
traversals, and the overall packet assembly overhead.
UnixWare lost 15% of its network performance when 2.x moved from
"monolithic" drivers to ODI-based streams driver, mostly because
they added two boundry crossings.
Each boundry crossing required that the "runstreams" entry point
be called to propagate messages over the boundry. This is
equivalent to requiring two additional context switch overheads,
plus any overhead before the context switch was invoked by a blocking
call or quantum expiration.
Having trivially "fixed" the streams in UnixWare by running the
interrupt push to completion (at the expense of serializing the
interrupts during the execution), I can tell you that the problems
with streams are *purely* related to the execution architecture,
and not to the architecture of streams itself.
We can examine a similar architecture, the FICUS VFS interface,
which was integrated into BSD 4.4-Lite, to see better performance
for a file system is not dependent on a monolithic design.
If, in fact, you were truly worried about boundry crossing overhead,
you would build a multiheaded monolithic module, or what some research
papers have called a "collapsed stack". This would be a monolithic
module that nevertheless exported seperate stream heads for IP, UDP,
and TCP, even though internally, there were no msgbuf boundy pushes
taking place.
I suggest you look at the streams implementation for AIX, which was
done by Mentat, Inc.. I have been deep into the Mentat code (as one
of the three Novell engineers who worked on the "Pathworks for VMS
(NetWare)" product), and I was able to save 3 additional copies
under DEC MTS (MultiThreading Services). The Mentat services under
AIX run as a kernel process (thread) and do not suffer the context
switch based push latency of "normal" (idiotic) streams implementations.
Now that Linux supports kernel "threads", if you could also support
kernel preemption, it would behoove you to try streams again. I
suggest you contact Jim Freeman at Caldera, since he is a seasoned,
professional programmers, used to working on streams in SMP environments.
Tell him "hi" for me (I used to work with him -- I'm also a seasoned
professional programmer with experience working on kernel code in
SMP environments, though I'm more a FS/VM/thjreading guy than a streams
guy).
> Streams can be done at the user level with minimal kernel support.
And with protection domain crossing overhead out the wazoo for service
requests which should, rightfully, be turned around in the kernel. Like
NFS RPCs.
> The only reason it is completely in the kernel in most commercial
> systems is that someone let it in there in the first place. It is
> very hard to "take out" something like that once it is in, especially
> in a commercial source tree.
Bullshit. XKernel first ran on SVR4 systems. Linux was a definite
late-bloomer.
> Fine grained mutexes and locks, yes that will indeed get you scaling
> better than a master lock implementation (which is what Linux has at
> the moment). But it is not a reasonable way to implement scalable SMP
> systems.
I suggest you go to work in inductry and implement a commercial SMP
system before you make that judgement. That's what I did. The
*entire* game is *concurrency*. The *ENTIRE* game. And you spell
that "increased blocking granularity.
Of course, I have a somewhat unfair advantage, having worked on code
which was designed to run in SVR4 ES/MP (*Unisys), UnixWare 2.x, Sequent,
and Solaris SMP kernels. I happen to know where these system made their
mistakes.
I can tell you for a fact that the 8 processor limitation touted in
most of these companies literature (except Sequent's) is utter bullshit
based on a global pool allocator. I suggest you read both "UNIX for
Modern Architectures" and "UNIX Internals, the New Frontiers" and
pay attention to the modified SLAB allocators employed by SVR4 and
derived systems, which originated at Sun, and at the per CPU pool
architecture used in Sequent's code (and the limitations there). If
you contend for the bus, you reduce concurrency. If you contend for
the bus more than you absolutely have to, your design is inhernetly
flawed and needs to be corrected.
> For how I think it should be done, investigate the numerous papers
> available on non-blocking synchronization and (harder to find) self
> locking data structures.
Data structure locking was the biggest, stupid-ass mistake that Sun
made. They have no hierarchically intermediate granularity to prevent
having to lock the world to get the lock onto their data structures.
Without this, they can not establish per processor domains of authority,
and we're back to beating our head against the bus to engender some
form of synchronization. If you hit the bus, you are stupidly reducing
concurrency for no good reason. You will never get better than .85 per
additional CPU (calculated expotentially until you run out of bus).
If you want to look at a good locking example, look at the Unisys SVR4
ES/MP implementation of VFS locking on the 60x0 series of machines (the
VFS locking was one place where Sequent screwed up, Big Time).
I think you will find it as difficult to go back and fix your mistakes
as the commercial companies have found it... and as, in fact, FreeBSD
and the other free UNIX implementations have found it. That is the
problem with bulling ahead without considering the ramifications of
your "right" decisions.
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 11:26:51 1996
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From: John Dyson <dyson@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612031923.OAA01823@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:23:21 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, dennis@etinc.com,
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In-Reply-To: <199612031858.KAA00415@neteng.engr.sgi.com> from "Larry McVoy" at Dec 3, 96 10:58:06 am
Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org
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>
> : > FreeBSD folks, please don't beat up David for optimizing for the I/O
> : > paths tested by lmbench. While I agree with the load vs no load points
> : > raised, you are missing another one: smallness is goodness, and David
> : > is almost always optimizing by making things smaller. There are plenty
> : > of people shoveling stuff into the kernel making it slower - David is
> : > making it smaller & faster, let him be, it's useful.
> : >
> : BTW, that is our emphasis also (in the VM code), and we are really
> : fast. We are interested in friendly competition, but not interested
> : in bragging. Some people take offense to bragging.
>
> Hey, John, take the high road.
>
I have been. Now the gloves are off :-).
>
> You've heard the old saying: numbers
> talk, bullshit walks.
>
> ...Various other pieces of drivel from a drooler...
> (this is only meant as a touche for the above insult)
>
Look Larry, I am trying to say that I don't want to get into the benchmark
waring game that you and your other Linux friends apparently want to play.
I have stated that your lmbench benchmarks DO NOT SHOW APPLICATION
PERFORMANCE... I really don't care other than for QC about lmbench perf
numbers. They are valuable to me, but the results measured by lmbench are
pretty much orthogonal to what the end user needs to measure for performance
comparisons.
I like and use lmbench as one of the tools (and only a small part of the
tools) that I use to make sure that FreeBSD performs well... Lmbench is
just overblown by the uninitiated and people new to computing, so was
dhrystone for that matter. I know that you believe in your invention,
and I do also, as far as it's bona fide scope takes it.
Sorry charlie (I mean Larry), them's the breaks... For application
benchmarking, lmbench is the one doing the walking (per your statement
above)...
John
care about spending lots of time optimizing from
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <199612031932.NAA27124@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:32:42 -0600 (CST)
Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, dennis@etinc.com,
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In-Reply-To: <199612031858.KAA00415@neteng.engr.sgi.com> from "Larry McVoy" at Dec 3, 96 10:58:06 am
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> Hey, John, take the high road.
Hey, Larry, hit the road. We're all tired of hearing this by now, if we
want a play by play replay of the last impassioned flame war, we have mail
archives. Unless you have something new and different to flame about,
please just take a hike.
> You've heard the old saying: numbers
> talk, bullshit walks.
(Correction: Hey, Larry, hit the road. Walking.)
Thanks,
... JG
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 12:37:32 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612032019.NAA14510@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: How to unexport something
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:19:01 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612030616.XAA25038@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Dec 2, 96 11:16:24 pm
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> Is there an easy way to unexport something? I'd like to unmount my
> JAZ drive, but it is exported...
Unmounting will unexport it.
It is one of the failings of the current VFS that this code must
be implemented per FS type instead of using shared code... this
will only be a problem if you are using an "unsupported" FS on
the JAZ disk. Most of the default FS's will "just work".
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 12:51:12 1996
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From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Message-Id: <199612032050.NAA29676@rover.village.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: But it didn't work.
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OK. I was able to unexport /jaz by restarting mountd after hacking
/etc/exports. However, unmount still says the drive is busy. lsof | egrep /jaz
(where I have it mounted) yields no output.
Ideas?
Warner "But I don't want to reboot" Losh
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 13:00:33 1996
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 15:59:09 -0500
To: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
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>
>> You've heard the old saying: numbers
>> talk, bullshit walks.
Yes, but bullshit numbers fool only fools.
anyone who uses both knows the truth, so whats to argue about?
Dennis
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, mark@quickweb.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
chuckr@glue.umd.edu, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 13:17:21 -0800
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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:03:45 -0700 (MST)
Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org> wrote:
> According to Carl S Shapiro <cshapiro@ic.sunysb.edu>, who, with
> Thor Lancelot Simon, tried to obtain the JCC 4.4BSD-Lite port
> CDROM [talking about Wolfgang's PPC code that was checked in]:
>
> | It does not seem to have any native drivers, and relies on the
> | OpenFirmware to communciate with all of the machines devices. It is not
> | much of a port if you ask me, but it is a start. I emailed Wolfgang
> | Solfrank a while ago with repects to taking all of the work he has done
> | and applying it to a BeBox port. He though it would take quite a bit of
> | effort since there are no native drivers, and second, the BeBox can only
> | boot OS's other than BeOS off of it's floppy (don't bounce buffer related
> | issues come into play here?).
It's true that OFW is used for all i/o. There are a couple of reasons
for this:
- It allows us to have a self-hosting port quickly.
- It works on all OFW machines.
NetBSD/powerpc will probably use a mechanism similar to NetBSD/alpha's
for doing `native' drivers. Once the "which i/o bus implementation
to pick" and the glue code is written, we get a whole slew of
`native' drivers for free, because of our MI PCI/ISA implementation.
Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 14:04:18 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612032145.OAA14694@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: But it didn't work.
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:45:31 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612032050.NAA29676@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Dec 3, 96 01:50:20 pm
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> OK. I was able to unexport /jaz by restarting mountd after hacking
> /etc/exports. However, unmount still says the drive is busy. lsof | egrep /jaz
> (where I have it mounted) yields no output.
>
> Ideas?
(1) There is a file open on the drive
(2) There is a directory open on the drive
A file requires a program. List the open fd's, and find the offending
program.
A directory requires only that the program was started on that drive.
Where you *on* the jaz drive when you started mountd? That would
do it.
If you look at the mount code, it's obvious that the NFS mount list
handling is done in each FS's mount code (and unmount code).
A plain "umount" should have unexported the FS, automatically... or
rather, it should have made the directory for the mount point theexported
FS. In either case, the mountd doesn't have the thing open all the
time, so it *can't* be the guy holding the partition "busy".
The exports list is just that: a list. It is *NOT* a reference to the
object, apart from the code in mount. That's why the export code should
be seperate and layerd above the mount (it would also mean that any
new FS would "just work" with NFS, instead of needing it's mount code
special cased).
You are running UFS on the drive, right?
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 14:12:47 1996
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Subject: Re: But it didn't work.
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:45:31 MST."
<199612032145.OAA14694@phaeton.artisoft.com>
References: <199612032145.OAA14694@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 15:11:10 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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: You are running UFS on the drive, right?
Yes. Why wouldn't lsof show anything, yet umount think the drive is
still busy? I don't know the answer to that, but it smells to me like
some kind of refcount bug somewhere. I don't know the kernel FS code
well enough to know where or why or how at this point. Nor do I know
how to recreate it :-(.
umount -f did work, however.
Warner
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612032153.OAA14706@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:53:18 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, jehamby@lightside.com, mark@quickweb.com,
jkh@time.cdrom.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612032117.NAA17498@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Dec 3, 96 01:17:21 pm
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[ ... NetBSD PPC ... ]
> It's true that OFW is used for all i/o. There are a couple of reasons
> for this:
>
> - It allows us to have a self-hosting port quickly.
>
> - It works on all OFW machines.
>
> NetBSD/powerpc will probably use a mechanism similar to NetBSD/alpha's
> for doing `native' drivers. Once the "which i/o bus implementation
> to pick" and the glue code is written, we get a whole slew of
> `native' drivers for free, because of our MI PCI/ISA implementation.
Yes. I was not saying that this is the wrong order in which to do things,
only that what has been done is still non-trivial to complete. It is
*not* a port (in my book) until it is not running through the ROM (I
believe I/O must be single threaded through the ROM, which uses a
number of register parameters. This is enough to make any hardware
look more crappy than I am willing to let outside eyes see it).
In any case, there *is* a port of NetBSD with native drivers, it's just
not released, and has no working boot code outside a hosted card. If
I consider the AIX code as a host environment, I'm almost that far on
the PPCBug based Ultra 603/604 boards (Firepower/PowerStack systems).
My main problem has been (and remains) lack of publically distributable
PPCBug-based boot code, and that's for lack of PPCBug docs.
One of my main hot buttons has been running FreeBSD x86 and AIX PPC
programs. Without software, a port is pretty useless. It doesn't
help that the last set of VM changes I rolled in from the x86 killed
my ability to fork (I still have not investigated why).
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 14:20:45 1996
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To: dyson@freebsd.org
From: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy)
cc: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu,
jkh@time.cdrom.com, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@freebsd.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@relay.engr.SGI.COM,
iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:19:16 -0800
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: > Hey, John, take the high road.
: >
: I have been. Now the gloves are off :-).
Exactly what was it about my comment that you took as an indication that
you need to take the gloves off? Sheesh. Try and be a little less touchy.
: > You've heard the old saying: numbers
: > talk, bullshit walks.
: >
: > ...Various other pieces of drivel from a drooler...
: > (this is only meant as a touche for the above insult)
My, my. You sure are sensitive. When I wrote that, my thinking was
it was *Linux* that was the bullshit, not FreeBSD. Because of all your
claims that FreeBSD is better *for real applications*. Obviously, you
took it that I was insulting FreeBSD. Far from it, it was crediting
FreeBSD with better performance and suggesting that you shut up the nay
sayers by providing the data that shows your claim to be true.
As the old commercial goes: Where's the beef?
Don't fill my mailbox with flames, fill it with test programs (or real
application suites) that show FreeBSD to be better. I can easily believe
that you have real applications that perform better under FreeBSD - so
what are they?
: I have stated that your lmbench benchmarks DO NOT SHOW APPLICATION
: PERFORMANCE...
Who's talking about lmbench? Not me. I'm asking you, listen carefully,
to produce benchmark, it can be anything you want, you write it or an
application that your users run, whatever, that runs better under FreeBSD.
What does that have to do with lmbench? Nothing. I'm asking you to show
off your OS where it shines the brightest. I'm not trying to insult
you, patronize you, or in any way show you to be anything negative.
I'm asking you to show us all a place where you did something better
than the rest of us.
Reread that last bit. I'm not saying "Hey, John, you big twit, my dick
is bigger than yours". I'm not saying "FreeBSD sucks". I'm not saying
anything negative, so don't take it that way.
I am saying "I believe that FreeBSD does some stuff better than Linux and
I believe that you can prove it. I'd like to see you do so. I'd like to
learn what you did that is so great because I might learn something." There
is nothing negative, implicit or explicit, in that statement. Stop looking
for slams - they aren't there.
Instead, show up with the data that says "FreeBSD can support 10 zillion
web hits a day and Linux can't - here is the benchmark that proves it".
Or whatever else it is that you think is important. Here's your chance
to prove how good FreeBSD is. So just do it.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 14:39:19 1996
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 17:35:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Edwin Burley <khan@vnet.net>
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----------------------------------
E-Mail: khan@vnet.net
Date: 12/03/96
Time: 17:35:52
----------------------------------
Can someone tell me why freefall.FreeBSD.org has changed there setup
it was
-rw-r--r-- to
-rw-------
and I can not get the CTM's ports....
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 15:13:04 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 00:09:12 +0100
From: se@FreeBSD.org (Stefan Esser)
To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org,
se@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Racal Interlan ethernet card: any good?
References: <199612011613.RAA14412@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199612022036.VAA00342@yedi.iaf.nl>
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In-Reply-To: <199612022036.VAA00342@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Dec 2, 1996 21:36:08 +0100
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On Dec 2, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) wrote:
> Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: pci0:9: AMD, device=0x2000, class=network
> (ethernet) int a irq 9 [no driver assigned]
> Dec 2 21:15:26 yedi /kernel: map(10): io(e400)
Just configure your kernel to test for an ISA Lance (lnc0) at
port 0xe400, irq 9, and it should work.
> >> Yep, it did see the card. But it sez: no driver assigned
Ok. As I read a few lines ago, this is -stable, and well,
there currently is no support for the NE2000 or Lance PCI
clones in -stable.
I is not so hard to add, though, if I use a slightly different
approach than I did for -current. The problem is, that the
watchdog function uses an integer unit number under -stable,
but receives a pointer to a struct under -current.
PCI cards don't have a ISA device structure (that could be
indexed by the unit number), but it is very easy to work around
this. I may have time to do this next week, since it seems I
finally am allowed to take a vacation (from December 5th until
January 5th :)
> Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio0: probe test 3 failed
> >> The sio's are no longer probed correctly (there's 2 of the onboard
> (Asus), and 4 on a AST/4 card). This only happens when the Racal is in
> the machine, rest unchanged.
>
> Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio0 not found at 0x3f8
> Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio1 not found at 0x2f8
> Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio2 not found at 0x1a0
> Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio3 not found at 0x1a8
> Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio4 not found at 0x1b0
> Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: sio5 not found at 0x1b8
> Dec 2 21:15:28 yedi /kernel: si0 not found
Don't know what fails, but you may get an idea from searching
for the "probe test 3 failed" message in the driver sources.
(But you knew that before :)
> Stefan: if you want to borrow the Racal I can mail 'm to you. If you
> want me to do so email me a shipping address.
No, thanks, it wouldn't really help. The card will work under -current,
and I can't easily compile and boot a -stable kernel.
I can send you patches that should work out of the box, since they don't
actually change the driver, they just provide the watchdog handler with
the expected argument, even if the kernel offers the index into the device
array only ...
Regards, STefan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 15:35:48 1996
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To: bdodson@beowulf.utmb.edu (M. L. Dodson)
cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha (was Re: COMDEX trip report)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 09:28:30 CST."
<199612031528.JAA10819@beowulf.utmb.EDU>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 15:35:42 -0800
Message-ID: <7681.849656142@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> If you guys decide to pursue the Alpha port (and I hope you do),
> please give due consideration to the several reasons why people
> might want to run Alphas instead of, e.g., PPros. One major reason
We do, believe me. I spent some time with the ALPHA people during the
show discussing just that, and I think there is a strong case for it.
It's a bit premature to be kicking off the FreeBSD/ALPHA project just
yet, so I'm going to save that bit of noisemaking for when we're truly
ready to start, but that will hopefully be soon.
> is for serious number crunching. To that end, I would like to see
> g77 integrated into the gcc/cc which ships with the system. The
> relationship of g77 (which makes changes to the gcc backend to
> support Fortran) to the system gcc/cc (which is not compiled as a
> Gnu project gcc) has never been very clear to me. On 2.1.5R, I
Well, these seem like reasonable arguments to this non-user of fortran
(which is my way of saying to take my opinions with a dump truck of
salt :), I think the major "barrier" at this point will simply be in
finding someone on the committers list who shares your needs for
fortran to sponsor the integration of it. It almost always comes down
to finding someone to actually do the work. :)
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 15:42:22 1996
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 18:40:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Edwin Burley <khan@vnet.net>
To: Edwin Burley <khan@vnet.net>
Subject: RE:can not get CTM:please help
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 03-Dec-96 Edwin Burley wrote:
>>
>----------------------------------
>E-Mail: khan@vnet.net
>Date: 12/03/96
>Time: 17:35:52
>----------------------------------
>Can someone tell me why freefall.FreeBSD.org has changed there setup
>it was
>-rw-r--r-- to
>-rw-------
>
>and I can not get the CTM's ports....
sorry about no subject people, I will get it right one day....thank's
and help
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 15:57:20 1996
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 10:06:11 MST."
<199612031706.KAA14212@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 15:55:26 -0800
Message-ID: <7744.849657326@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> yet -- think that one's the charm?). Enough that the fundamental
> concept needs to be questioned somewhat before someone unleashes
> another one on an unsuspecting (and largely disinterested) world.
I'm not disinterested and neither are any of the rest of us who would
love to start writing a "SAM" equivalent tool for FreeBSD but lack a
reasonable set of presentation objects that will work both at system
startup time (pre-X) and under X for those who prefer that
environment. There are also quite a few folks who still don't run X,
and on many laptops (like mine) it's so painful to use that I stick
with the VTY interface anyway.
This needs to be done before a lot of stuff which many people are
*most definitely* interested in can take place, like a user-friendly
setup dialog for ppp (or any of a hundred other things I could name).
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 16:12:15 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612032353.QAA14902@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: But it didn't work.
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:53:38 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612032211.PAA00422@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Dec 3, 96 03:11:10 pm
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> : You are running UFS on the drive, right?
>
> Yes. Why wouldn't lsof show anything, yet umount think the drive is
> still busy? I don't know the answer to that, but it smells to me like
> some kind of refcount bug somewhere. I don't know the kernel FS code
> well enough to know where or why or how at this point. Nor do I know
> how to recreate it :-(.
>
> umount -f did work, however.
Probably the cache is not clean... ie: one of the vnodes has been
clodes, but is still in the name cache, and so still has buffers
on it (lsof wouldn't show cache contents).
If you wait for a long time, or force the cache to recycle ("find"
on the FS's not on the JAZ drive to force recycle of unused but
still-cache vnodes), and it fixes it, then it's the cache. Otherwise,
it's something else.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 16:19:43 1996
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To: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy)
cc: dyson@freebsd.org, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@relay.engr.SGI.COM, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 10:58:06 PST."
<199612031858.KAA00415@neteng.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 16:16:17 -0800
Message-ID: <7860.849658577@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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Can we STOP THIS THREAD NOW PLEASE!
It's not getting us anything but an exchange of invective and I took
this offline ages ago.
John, PLEASE, enough. You're a very intelligent guy, as are many of
the others on the CC line, but like them sometimes you really just
don't know when to quit, and the time for quitting this discussion was
about 10 emails back. You gain nothing by continuing to debate
Messrs. McVoy and Miller on these lists except a headache, and this is
made all the more annoying by the fact that we've BEEN here before, in
excrutiating detail, and this is all reading like a bad LSD flashback.
Summary:
Larry, we can take this up in person at the next USENIX. I'll bring
the padded NERF-bats. Jason, well, I know you don't want to be here
anyway. Miller, we've already concluded our discussion in person.
Kevin, you've been smart enough to stay out of this - I commend you.
Linus, good luck on your thesis. Mailing lists: Sorry. We now
return you to your regularly scheduled on-topic discussions.
Finito! Thank you!
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 16:44:44 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:40:00 -0500
Message-Id: <199612040040.TAA19311@jenolan.caipgeneral>
From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com
CC: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, dyson@freebsd.org, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@relay.engr.SGI.COM, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-reply-to: <7860.849658577@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com)
Subject: The real issue...
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 16:16:17 -0800
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Can we STOP THIS THREAD NOW PLEASE!
No one has the friggin' balls to say it, but I will and this will be
my last message, you can be sure of that.
The thing the FreeBSD people are worried about, is that if they make
publicly available whatever tools/benchmarks they use to measure the
better performance they get in some way over other systems, they are
afraid that the Linux people will pick it up and fix the problem. And
then there will be nothing to be said anymore.
Kind of sounds like the ball game commercial UNIX vendors play doesn't
it? Proprietary pieces of code, under lock and key, and the hoarding
of information to get competitive advantages. You no longer get the
compliment of being called a pinhead by me for this. This is dirty
pool.
This is what they are concerned about.
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 17:34:51 1996
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To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, dyson@freebsd.org, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org,
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sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The real issue...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 1996 19:40:00 EST."
<199612040040.TAA19311@jenolan.caipgeneral>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 17:32:18 -0800
Message-ID: <8189.849663138@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
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> The thing the FreeBSD people are worried about, is that if they make
> publicly available whatever tools/benchmarks they use to measure the
> better performance they get in some way over other systems, they are
> afraid that the Linux people will pick it up and fix the problem. And
> then there will be nothing to be said anymore.
Which only clearly illustrates that David *still* isn't listening to
anything I've been saying, he's only nodding his head waiting for me
to finish so that he can get his next diatribe in.
There is only one way you guys could even being to "worry us" and
that's if you created a large, publically visible FTP or WWW server
which rivaled one of ours. That's it. You can shout about your
numbers until the cows come home, but until you get a machine with a
100Mbit connection to the Internet and over a thousand users on it
which we can connect to and see it in action for ourselves, we'll
still feel quite secure that we're able to provide the best heavy-duty
server solution, and that's our game.
This is not dirty pool, this is you deciding that you're unable to
play soccer in our arena and so running off to kick the ball in a
corner by yourself, screaming "goal!" everytime you manage to get the
ball past your imaginary goalkeeper.
Grow up, OK?
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 17:48:20 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612040144.UAA02462@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
To: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:44:14 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, dennis@etinc.com,
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In-Reply-To: <199612032219.OAA22523@neteng.engr.sgi.com> from "Larry McVoy" at Dec 3, 96 02:19:16 pm
Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org
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>
> My, my. You sure are sensitive. When I wrote that, my thinking was
> it was *Linux* that was the bullshit, not FreeBSD. Because of all your
>
I don't know how I could not have interpreted your statement about my
carefulness or conservativism in giving numbers out as saying it is
"bullshit." It was obvious that the "numbers" weren't us (I don't normally
give any out.) Sometimes I can be coerced to talk about them (when
pressured), but it is something that I generally hold back.
Here Larry McVoy's statement:
>
> You've heard the old saying: numbers
> talk, bullshit walks.
>
Sorry, again I HAVE NOT GIVEN NUMBERS OUT RECENTLY. I am not talking,
so my position is bullshit... Very easy to interpret it that way...
>
> As the old commercial goes: Where's the beef?
>
If I misinterpreted your position, I am sorry, but others have
apparently interpreted your statments the same as me... Please refer
to other irate responses. I think that your interpretation of the
situation is in error.
>
> Don't fill my mailbox with flames, fill it with test programs (or real
> application suites) that show FreeBSD to be better.
>
Let the user base decide, I study FreeBSD (and once in a while Linux)
to find ways to improve FreeBSD. I check out Linux to make sure that
we aren't falling behind in any important areas. I very well know the
differences in performance between FreeBSD and Linux, but it isn't in
my demeanor to want to deal with the issues after putting the info
into public view.
>
> I can easily believe
> that you have real applications that perform better under FreeBSD - so
> what are they?
>
Likewise... What are the applications that perform better under Linux,
so I can improve FreeBSD?
>
> I am saying "I believe that FreeBSD does some stuff better than Linux and
> I believe that you can prove it.
>
I believe that it is Linux's job to find out where their perf problems are.
I don't publish my "bogostones" :-) and frankly I don't want to. As soon
as I quote benchmarks, then I need to supply information about them, then
I would have a responsibility to disclose information that I don't want
to. Much of the problem in fixing the perf problems in an OS is finding
them... I have spent time finding problems and performance issues, and
don't necessarily want to give the fruits of that labor away. I will
release some of my tools to certain groups, if they want. But it is
my choice.
I freely give away source code that I work weeks on, but I also intend to
maintain the freedom to choose what I give away also I intend to keep it that
way. (These are my kind-of part of my anti-GPL sentiments.)
>
> I'd like to see you do so. I'd like to
> learn what you did that is so great because I might learn something." There
> is nothing negative, implicit or explicit, in that statement. Stop looking
> for slams - they aren't there.
>
I guess that I have had conditioning while dealing with your condescending
attitude in the past. I simply expect it from you. It takes time to build
up trust. Also, if you are so interested in FreeBSD, why do I only hear
from you during flame wars? This is wierd.
>
> Instead, show up with the data that says "FreeBSD can support 10 zillion
> web hits a day and Linux can't - here is the benchmark that proves it".
> Or whatever else it is that you think is important. Here's your chance
> to prove how good FreeBSD is. So just do it.
>
I don't care to spread around the results of how much better FreeBSD performs
than ANY OS. Let's let the users evaluate and decide. FreeBSD is way way past
the chest beating stage (and sure wish others would quit also.)
But, I am sure if someone specifically posts a totally bogus benchmark comparing
FreeBSD to BOGOos or what not, I'll look into it and challenge untruths or
misleading statements. I certainly am not going to brag about things
or initiate some kind of chest-beating session. I don't need to.
I wish that many Linux people could do the same. Note that I have
another opinion about Linux advocacy -- wonderful, super high performance
benchmarks on FreeBSD won't convert most of the Linux user base. They
love Linux, it is an emotional attachment that defies reason and sane
thinking. Why shouldn't we (FreeBSD) just do the best OS that we can,
and when users that are really in a pickle with an inferior OS, they will
look towards FreeBSD as a possible solution.
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 18:49:34 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 21:45:13 -0500
Message-Id: <199612040245.VAA19411@jenolan.caipgeneral>
From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com
CC: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, dyson@freebsd.org, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, hackers@freebsd.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@relay.engr.SGI.COM, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-reply-to: <8189.849663138@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com)
Subject: Re: The real issue...
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 17:32:18 -0800
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
This is not dirty pool, this is you deciding that you're unable to
play soccer in our arena and so running off to kick the ball in a
corner by yourself, screaming "goal!" everytime you manage to get the
ball past your imaginary goalkeeper.
It is in fact dirty pool, because you have decided to keep the soccer
ball all to yourselves in certain circumstances. How is this fair?
And this is precisely what John has stated, that you withold perf
tools and other similar things which we allow anyone and their
grandmother to publicly get at.
---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
ethernet. Beat that! ////
-----------------------------------------////__________ o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 19:02:13 1996
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Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:01:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.tfs.com>
cc: Gang-Ryung Uh <uh@sed.cs.fsu.edu>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org,
hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Me too: Re: Fatal Trap 12
In-Reply-To: <3282.849297417@critter.tfs.com>
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Thanks, works fine now.
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 20:56:57 +0100
> From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.tfs.com>
> To: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
> Cc: Gang-Ryung Uh <uh@sed.cs.fsu.edu>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org,
> hackers@FreeBSD.org
> Subject: Re: Me too: Re: Fatal Trap 12
>
> In message <Pine.NEB.3.95.961129114413.18684D-100000@mail.cdsnet.net>, Jaye Mat
> hisen writes:
> >
> >Me too. Seems to be a problem with the psm driver, at least, I probe sc0
> >fine, then kaboom.
>
> typo in psm driver. try current now.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team.
> http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox.
> whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
> Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so.
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 19:23:45 1996
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Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 03:31:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Jake Hamby <jehamby@lightside.com>
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Speaking of performance...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961130032519.229B-100000@hamby1>
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That TCP bandwidth thread was obnoxious, but I was interested in one
comment from Mr. Miller (and Terry Lambert's response) on STREAM
performance, and Solaris performance tuning. Sun has a new IPC mechanism
called "doors" which came from their Spring OS project that they claimed
in a recent developer newsletter is faster than any other form of IPC in
Solaris. Right now the door system call is officially UNdocumented (an
excerpt from "man door" is included below for your amusement), and the
only thing that uses it is nscd (name service cache daemon, which caches
passwd, group, and host data), but I'd expect it to take a bigger role in
Solaris 2.6. Terry, or anyone, is this a technology worth investigating,
or just some tidbit that Sun threw in because STREAMs were so slow?
-- Jake
door(2) System Calls door(2)
WARNING
Please do not attempt to reverse-engineer the interface and
program to it. If you do, your program will almost certainly
fail to run on future versions of Solaris, and may even be
broken by a patch. This document does not constitute an
API. Doors may not exist or may have a completely different
set of semantics in a future release.
NOTES
This manual page is here solely for the benefit of anyone
who noticed door_call() in truss(1) output and thought,
"Gee, I wonder what that does..."
SunOS 5.5.1 Last change: 29 Aug 1995 1
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 19:29:59 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612040326.WAA02669@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: The real issue...
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 22:26:03 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org,
thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@FreeBSD.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@relay.engr.SGI.COM,
iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-Reply-To: <199612040245.VAA19411@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Dec 3, 96 09:45:13 pm
Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org
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>
> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 17:32:18 -0800
> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
>
> This is not dirty pool, this is you deciding that you're unable to
> play soccer in our arena and so running off to kick the ball in a
> corner by yourself, screaming "goal!" everytime you manage to get the
> ball past your imaginary goalkeeper.
>
> It is in fact dirty pool, because you have decided to keep the soccer
> ball all to yourselves in certain circumstances. How is this fair?
> And this is precisely what John has stated, that you withold perf
> tools and other similar things which we allow anyone and their
> grandmother to publicly get at.
>
Nope, just because you have the soccer ball, doesn't mean that you have
the right to the machine that makes it. Geesh!!! Do you want to own
me also? (Yep, I can see it written into the GPL now.)
BTW, if you pay me for them, I'll give'em to you. Say, they have taken
me 500Hrs to produce. Since I would be giving up a large part of my
ownership, I will ask for approx $50/Hr for my time. For $25K you can
have whatever software tools that I have, and that will allow me to invest in
a new Alpha system for the new super-VM system Alpha port for FreeBSD!!!
Then, you can release them for public consumption... In essence, you will
have employed me to produce them... I think that could work, what do you
think?
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 21:24:50 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 00:24:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: current@freebsd.org
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: PPro Chipsets - 450GX??
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961204001432.2471A-100000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
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Hi there. I noticed that a verbose boot on 2.2-RELEASE incorrectly
identifies my chipset. This is a completely non-critical issue, but I'd
thought I'd bring it up anyays :-)
dmesg output:
FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE #0: Tue Dec 3 23:39:42 EST 1996
root@celebris.quickweb.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/RingZero
Calibrating clock(s) relative to mc146818A clock ... i586 clock: 149998373
Hz, i
CPU: Pentium Pro (148.50-MHz 686-class CPU)
Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x611 Stepping=1
Features=0xf9ff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,<b11>,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV>
...
chip1 <Intel 82450KX (Orion) PCI memory controller> rev 2 on pci0:25
Now, I know that it says on the chipset that it's an 82450GX - I'm just
curious if it's the actual probe reporting this KX ident, or if it just
hasn't been properly identified (i.e. no code wirtten to distinguish the
KX from the GX). Or is it even possible to distinguish the two ??
Thanks for any insight! As soon as I get a PDF viewer installed, I'll dig
through the PPro Developers Guide and see what it says... =)
cya,
-Mark
---------------------------------------------------
| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com |
| RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark |
---------------------------------------------------
"To iterate is human, to recurse divine."
- L. Peter Deutsch
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 23:02:07 1996
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Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 02:01:45 -0500
To: hackers@freebsd.org
From: "Kevin P. Neal" <kpneal@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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At 11:06 AM 12/3/96 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
>> In noting the .edu domain of your address, I originally thought that
>> you might be a college student. I now believe that I am addressing the
>> janitor in the Computer Science Department.
>
>Actually, the CS department janitor I know is more clueful than
>many of the people graduating with degrees. At the very least,
>he has more hands-on experience than they do. He would also be
>a better choice for a UNIX system admin than most of the students,
>if you were a commercial company looking for someone like that.
>
>This is not to say that I think Archimedes Plutonium knows what he's
>talking about...
Hear hear!
I had a guy getting his Master's in Computer Science tell me a couple of
months ago that people who put RCS Id strings in binaries "don't know
what they are doing.".
Obviously he's never, uh, worked out in the "real world" (pretty sad
statement coming from a So, soon to be Jr, in CSC).
I was unimpressed. This was from the guy who writes/supports the m68k
assembly simulator package for the Computer Science and Electrical/
Computer Engineering departments. It's used in a 200-level CS class,
and a couple of 400-level ECE classes.
Sad.
(BTW, I had a friend of mine say on USELESSNET that I have too many "back
home" stories for my own good. I guess I have too many "here at school"
stories for my own good as well ;)
--
XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore, Comp. Sci. - kpneal@pobox.com
XCOMM http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ - kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu
XCOMM "Comments in code are kinda useless, anyway."
XCOMM -- Brian Rumple, TA for my OS class, NCSU. November 6,1996
From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 3 23:52:58 1996
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From: Thomas Gellekum <thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199612040748.IAA20702@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 08:48:10 +0100 (MET)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <7744.849657326@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 3, 96 03:55:26 pm"
Organization: Institut f. Hochfrequenztechnik, RWTH Aachen
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> I'm not disinterested and neither are any of the rest of us who would
> love to start writing a "SAM" equivalent tool for FreeBSD but lack a
What's SAM?
tg
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 01:44:22 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612040936.UAA16234@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
In-Reply-To: <199612040748.IAA20702@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> from Thomas Gellekum at "Dec 4, 96 08:48:10 am"
To: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (Thomas Gellekum)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:06:53 +1030 (CST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk,
msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Thomas Gellekum stands accused of saying:
> Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > I'm not disinterested and neither are any of the rest of us who would
> > love to start writing a "SAM" equivalent tool for FreeBSD but lack a
>
> What's SAM?
Dunno exactly; in context it almost certainly means "System Administration
Manager". If you've ever used SCO think of "scoadmin", Ultrix consider
"opser" (was that Ultrix or Umax; I can't remember now) etc.
Basically, an integrated system administration frontend; a group of us
have been bouncing ideas back and forth for a while now and trying
out various small technology components that need to be there before
we can make the whole work.
> tg
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 01:47:12 1996
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To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
References: <MLIST_199612030410.XAA18471@jenolan.caipgeneral>
From: Kai Vorma <vode@snakemail.hut.fi>
Date: 04 Dec 1996 11:47:00 +0200
In-Reply-To: "David S. Miller"'s message of 3 Dec 1996 06:28:37 +0200
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"David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu> writes:
> ---------------------------------------------////
> Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
> 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s ////
> ethernet. Beat that! ////
> -----------------------------------------////__________ o
> David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
Ok, how about this?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
cactus-18 - 11:36 - ~ > ttcp -s -t -l 65536 cactus-24-s
ttcp-t: buflen=65536, nbuf=2048, align=16384/0, port=5001 tcp -> cactus-24-s
ttcp-t: socket
ttcp-t: connect
ttcp-t: 134217728 bytes in 4.30 real seconds = 30468.04 KB/sec +++
ttcp-t: 2048 I/O calls, msec/call = 2.15, calls/sec = 476.06
ttcp-t: 0.1user 2.3sys 0:04real 58% 0i+9d 176maxrss 0+16pf 939+1022csw
0.120u 2.410s 0:04.32 58.5% 0+9k 0+0io 0pf+0w
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth :-)
The machine is dirty old IBM SP2 with wide nodes (similar to
RS/6000 590 which appeared in 1993, I think) and HPS2 switch.
Okay, the HPS2 switch is quite a different animal than ethernet, but
you asked.. :-)
..vode
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 01:55:22 1996
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: vode@snakemail.hut.fi
CC: hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: <mbou3q2bq0b.fsf@skye.hut.fi> (message from Kai Vorma on 04 Dec
1996 11:47:00 +0200)
Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging
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From: Kai Vorma <vode@snakemail.hut.fi>
Date: 04 Dec 1996 11:47:00 +0200
30 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth :-)
The machine is dirty old IBM SP2 with wide nodes (similar to
RS/6000 590 which appeared in 1993, I think) and HPS2 switch.
Okay, the HPS2 switch is quite a different animal than ethernet, but
you asked.. :-)
We'll see what my Gigabit ethernet numbers look like in two days.
(I have an SP2 right here btw (15 feet away), and I have run several
such benchmarks like the what you have shown already, the internal
network switch on the SP2 is actually kind of neat)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 03:48:50 1996
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Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:47:46 +0100 (MEZ)
Cc: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org,
p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199612040936.UAA16234@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Dec 4, 96 08:06:53 pm
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E-mail message from Michael Smith contained:
> Thomas Gellekum stands accused of saying:
> > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > > I'm not disinterested and neither are any of the rest of us who would
> > > love to start writing a "SAM" equivalent tool for FreeBSD but lack a
> >
> > What's SAM?
>
> Dunno exactly; in context it almost certainly means "System Administration
> Manager". If you've ever used SCO think of "scoadmin", Ultrix consider
> "opser" (was that Ultrix or Umax; I can't remember now) etc.
sam(1M) sam(1M)
NAME
sam - system administration manager
SYNOPSIS
/usr/sbin/sam [-display display] [-f login] [-r]
DESCRIPTION
The sam command starts a menu-driven program that makes it easy to
perform system administration tasks with only limited, specialized
knowledge of the HP-UX operating system. SAM discovers most aspects
of a system's configuration through automated inquiries and tests.
Help menus describe how to use SAM and perform the various management
tasks. Context-sensitive help on the currently highlighted field is
always available by pressing the f1 function key. Status messages and
a log file monitor keep the user informed of what SAM is doing.
/Marino
>
> Basically, an integrated system administration frontend; a group of us
> have been bouncing ideas back and forth for a while now and trying
> out various small technology components that need to be there before
> we can make the whole work.
>
> > tg
>
> --
> ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
> ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
> ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
> ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
> ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 04:34:38 1996
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Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (Thomas Gellekum)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:45:14 +0100 (MET)
From: "Soren Schmidt" <sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk>
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk,
msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199612040748.IAA20702@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> from "Thomas Gellekum" at Dec 4, 96 08:48:10 am
From: sos@FreeBSD.ORG
Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG
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In reply to Thomas Gellekum who wrote:
>
> Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > I'm not disinterested and neither are any of the rest of us who would
> > love to start writing a "SAM" equivalent tool for FreeBSD but lack a
>
> What's SAM?
System Administration Monster ??
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team
Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 04:50:24 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 96 13:47:57 +0100
Message-Id: <9612041247.AA21652@wavehh.hanse.de>
From: Martin Cracauer <cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer), cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de,
nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
In-Reply-To: <199612021933.MAA11060@phaeton.artisoft.com>
References: <32A27CB2.59E2B600@whistle.com>
<199612021933.MAA11060@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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Terry Lambert writes:
> > > The additonal options are needed to produce a Posix-compatible thread
> > > interface that has no userlevel threads anymore. Linus claims Linux
> > > syscalls are fast enough to be acceptable even in applications with
> > > heavy use of locking (and therefore resheduling by the kernel).
> >
> > He might be correct.
> > sharing memory spaces makes for a much smaller contect switch.
>
> Assuming you switch from one context in a thread group to another.
> In which case, it is possible for a threaded process to starve all
> other processes, depending on if its resource requests are satisfied
> before all the remaining threads in the thread group have also made
> blocking requests (otherwise, you are not prioritizing by being in
> the thread group, and there are virtually no contex switch overhead
> wins from doing the threading -- only the win that a single process
> can compete for N quantums instead of 1 quantum when there are N
> kernel threads in the thread group).
If I understand you right, your say that the sheduler (the one in the
kernel, we don't have a userlevel sheduler in this model) must be
changed to prefer to switch to a thread/process that has the same VM
bits. If not, the number of cases where the VM space stays across the
switch are too infrequent. The result would be that the theoretical
advantage of threads, the faster context switch will be lost in
practice.
Your concern is that this required change can lead to situations where
one thread group takes over more resources than planned. Why that? Why
can't the kernel keep track of the resources spent on one
process/thread-group and act on that basis?
In any case, changing the sheduler to favor thread switches instead of
process switches complicates things so that the implementation effort
advantage a kernel-only thread solution is at least partially lost.
> A good thread scheduler requires async system calls (not just I/O)
> and conversion of blocking calls to non-blocking calls plus a context
It does? [you probably know tyhe following, but for others].
All thread implementations I know details of that are not pure
userlevel don't change system calls to non-blocking equivalents.
These systems have either one kernel-thread for each userlevel thread
(Win32) or they manage some communication between the kernel and the
userlevel thread sheduler to make sure the process doesn't stall when
all threads are blocking.
The Solaris kernel informs the userlevel thread sheduler when the last
kernel thread is blocking and the sheduler creates more kernel
threads. The programmer should plan in advance and set the number of
initial kernel threads high enough.
In Digital Unix 4.0, userlevel threads are newly assigned to a pool of
kernel threads when they are sheduled. The kernel reports each
blocking syscall to the userlevel sheduler, which will immedeatly
shedule another userlevel thread on that kernel thread.
The people I listend to so far were all convincend that turning all
system calls into nonblocking versions will lead into serious
implementation difficulties, especially if you take further changes
into account (those will have to be made on two versions of the
library). Another concern is that most exsiting async I/O interfaces
don't work reliable.
I still like the simpliticity of a kernel-only thread solution. If
that way turns out to be too inefficient, the DEC way seems to be a
solution that doesn't need async system calls and has no efficiency
disadvantage I can see (compared to a sysyem with async syscalls
only).
I hope to get further details on the DEC implementation.
> switch in user space (quasi-cooperative scheduling, like SunOS 4.1.3
> liblwp). This would result in a kernel thread consuming its full
> quantum, potentially on several threads, before going on. One of
I still don't know why we can't made the kernel keeping track of the
timeslices spent on thread groups and shedule on that basis.
> the consequences of this is that sleep intervals below the quantum
> interval, which will work now, without a high degree of reliability,
> will now be guaranteed to *not* work at all. Timing on most X games
> using a select() with a timeout to run background processing, for
> instance, will fail on systems that use this, unless a kernel preempt
> (a "real time" interrupt) is generated as a result of time expiration,
> causing the select()-held process to run at the time the event occurs,
> instead of simply scheduling the process to run. This leads to buzz
> loop starvation unless you limit the number of times in an interval
> that you allow a process to preeempt (ie: drop virtual priority on
> a process each time it preempts this way, and rest on quantum interval).
Another reason why I'd like to have only one sheduler (in the kernel).
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de>
http://cracauer.cons.org
Fax +49 40 522 85 36
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 05:41:37 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:43:36 +0100 (MET)
From: "didier@omnix.fr.org" <didier@omnix.fr.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Seagate ST34371W drives
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961204144322.16480A-100000@zapata.omnix.fr.org>
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do you have any experience with these drives ?
do you know if they are ok with FreeBSD 2.1.5R
thanks for your help
--
Didier Derny
didier@omnix.fr.org
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 06:04:49 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 08:02:45 -0600
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Message-Id: <199612041402.IAA07328@bonkers.taronga.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: What's SAM? (Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?)
Newsgroups: taronga.freebsd.hackers
In-Reply-To: <199612041147.AA141990066@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at>
References: <199612040936.UAA16234@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Organization: none
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
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SAM is the function-key-driven system administration tool that HP's been
developing since its first incarnation on the HP 150 touch screen and the
HP integral lunchbox UNIX system back in 1984.
(the integral was cute: ROM based root file system that was copied into RAM
on boot up, automatically mounted floppies when they were inserted and
mechanically locked the eject button until they were unmountable, and no hard
disk because there weren't any hard disks that satisfied HP's "your calculator
will still work after going through a snowblower" construction standards)
It's not bad, and with a sufficiently high level abstraction an X-based
version would be able to be made much nicer looking than any widget oriented
equivalent.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 06:28:54 1996
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From: fsa@melsa.net.id (fsa)
Subject: 3Com
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:28:09 +0700 (JVT)
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I have two 3Com EtherLink III cards on my computer. I want to make the
2nd one works (so I will have ep0 and ep1). How ?
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 06:43:32 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:42:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: www@freebsd.org -> Returned mail: User unknown (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961204093901.3147C-120000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
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This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.
--PAA04622.849708495/server.zsb.th-darmstadt.de
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961204093901.3147E@vinyl.quickweb.com>
Hi, I tried to email www@freebsd.org with a problem concerning a link on
one of the freebsd web pages, but it seems the www alias on freefall
points to a non-existant user in Germany..
The original message is attached (it's just a friendly note saying the
link to the Mailing Lists is incorrect).
Thanx,
-mark
---------------------------------------------------
| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com |
| RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark |
---------------------------------------------------
"To iterate is human, to recurse divine."
- L. Peter Deutsch
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:08:15 +0100 (MET)
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@server.zsb.th-darmstadt.de>
To: mark@quickweb.com
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
The original message was received at Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:07:51 +0100 (MET)
from root@ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
michael
(expanded from: <www@de.freebsd.org>)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 michael... User unknown
--PAA04622.849708495/server.zsb.th-darmstadt.de
Content-Type: MESSAGE/DELIVERY-STATUS
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Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:08:15 +0100 (MET)
--PAA04622.849708495/server.zsb.th-darmstadt.de
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Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 09:15:32 -0500
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
Organization: RingZero Computing
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I was just going to subscribe to another FreeBSD list (now that I've got
procmail working =) ), and I noticed that the "Mailing Lists" link on
http://www.freebsd.org/support.html points to a non-existent page right
now.
It points to:
http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources:mail.html
at the moment. I tried replacing the ':' with a '.', but to no avail..
-Mark
__________________
Mark Mayo
mark@quickweb.com
--PAA04622.849708495/server.zsb.th-darmstadt.de--
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 07:41:59 1996
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Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 10:41:02 -0500
To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: The real issue...
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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At 07:40 PM 12/3/96 -0500, you wrote:
> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 16:16:17 -0800
> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
>
> Can we STOP THIS THREAD NOW PLEASE!
>
>No one has the friggin' balls to say it, but I will and this will be
>my last message, you can be sure of that.
>
>The thing the FreeBSD people are worried about, is that if they make
>publicly available whatever tools/benchmarks they use to measure the
>better performance they get in some way over other systems, they are
>afraid that the Linux people will pick it up and fix the problem. And
>then there will be nothing to be said anymore.
This is so totally ridiculous...I wonder what is the color of the sky
in your world?
There are substantial differences between Linux and 'BSD unices,
enough to justify the use of one or another based on a wide variety
of criteria. Perhaps a tiny majority of those that use LINUX use it
because they think it is a better performer, but for the most part
its because Linux is more widely known and people tend to use
what they are familiar with.
Even if Linux was a higher performer than 'BSD, there are enough
differences in philosophy to justify the recommendation of 'BSD
unices for commercial and production environments, which is
a substantial market. The Linux kernel can be described as an
abortion; it regularly undergoes massive changes in structure,
and has a very undisciplined management team, which threatens
ongoing stabiltiy. FreeBSD has a much more disciplined and talented
management team, and is much more comparable to a commercial-
quality products then Linux.
The numbers are nice to argue about, but LINUX still has a ways
to go.
Dennis
Emerging Technologies, Inc.
(516) 271-4525
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 07:42:06 1996
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id smasrsC92; Wed Dec 4 15:41:41 1996
Reply-To: <SimsS@IBM.Net>
From: "Steve Sims" <SimsS@IBM.Net>
To: <hackers@FreeBSD.Org>
Subject: Userland PPP - IP Aliasing
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:41:32 -0500
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Some time back, Charles Mott posted some changes to iij-ppp that provides
IP-Address masquerading to permit a dial-up PPP client to act as a neutered
gateway for other locally-connected nodes to connect through the dial-out
line.
His changes were based on 2.1.5 code and I contacted him to determine if
these changes were ever rolled into the -CURRENT code base. My note to him:
===== Steve Sims wrote:
> Charles,
>
> I've stumbled into your PPP masquerading patches and I am intrigued
> by what I see.
>
> (I haven't actually built the userland ppp with the changes, since I'll
have
> to grok the differences between your patches, the 2.1.5 base code and the
3.0
> code I've got.)
>
> I'm running -CURRENT and I notice that this (welcome) hack has not been
> merged with the tree. Before I hurl a potential Molotov Cocktail into
> -hackers, I wonder if it has already been discussed unto death about
mapping
> the masquerading functions into the -RELEASE || -CURRENT trees.
>
> Anyway, any word on adding your changes to the src tree?
>
And his reply:
===== Charles Mott penned:
> Hi, Steve,
>
> I am new to the FreeBSD community, and I have not added my opinions as to
> whether the code I have written should be added to the source tree. From
> looking at the newsgroup postings, I would suggest that it be done in such
> a way that packet aliasing (IP masquerading) is enabled by a "-alias" in
> the command line. That way, the same ppp.conf file can be used with or
> without masquerading.
>
> You will find that the packet aliasing software (in alias.c, alias_db.c
> and alias_ftp.c) hooks into the main code with three primary function
> calls: initialization, incoming packet aliasing, and outgoing packet
> aliasing. It should be fairly simple to link into the 3.0 code.
> Differencing the base 2.1.5 code and my revised code will show that
> merging is fairly simple.
>
> I certainly do not mind if you add the code to the source tree. There is
> quite a demand for this function, and I have tried to make a sound
> implementation.
>
> Charles Mott
=======
I've taken a stab at rolling his changes into the -CURRENT code base and
actually have a 3.0-CURRENT iij-ppp that works, masquerading and all. I
haven't delved into adding this feature as a command-line option to ppp
(i.e.: `ppp -alias [system name]` but it doesn't seem too hard to do so.
So, my question is this: With whom should I work to have this added into the
tree? I've been on the consumer side of FreeBSD for a LONG time, I guess
it's time to contribute something back - now how to proceed? I have DIFF's
of the 3.0 code base before- and after- making the aliasing changes, but I
don't know what to do with them (except use 'em ;-).
...sjs...
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 08:03:08 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:04:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Jamie Bowden <jamie@inna.net>
To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org,
thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
hackers@FreeBSD.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@relay.engr.SGI.COM,
iain@sbs.de, sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The real issue...
In-Reply-To: <199612040245.VAA19411@jenolan.caipgeneral>
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On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, David S. Miller wrote:
> It is in fact dirty pool, because you have decided to keep the soccer
> ball all to yourselves in certain circumstances. How is this fair?
> And this is precisely what John has stated, that you withold perf
> tools and other similar things which we allow anyone and their
> grandmother to publicly get at.
You have the entire source tree available to you anytime you feel like
it. You can do anything you want with it. Now sut up and go away. No
one is hiding anything. John doesn't feel the need to give classes on
his personal means of locating and fixing problems, that's his choice.
If you're as good as you claim, all you need is source, which you have.
Now go away.
Jamie Bowden
Network Administrator, TBI Ltd.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 08:10:29 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:10:19 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199612041610.JAA10262@rocky.mt.sri.com>
From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: <SimsS@IBM.Net>
Cc: <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Userland PPP - IP Aliasing
In-Reply-To: <199612041541.PAA107009@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: <199612041541.PAA107009@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
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> Some time back, Charles Mott posted some changes to iij-ppp that provides
> IP-Address masquerading to permit a dial-up PPP client to act as a neutered
> gateway for other locally-connected nodes to connect through the dial-out
> line.
Yep, they would be a good addition to the current code.
Charles writes:
> > I am new to the FreeBSD community, and I have not added my opinions as to
> > whether the code I have written should be added to the source tree. From
> > looking at the newsgroup postings, I would suggest that it be done in such
> > a way that packet aliasing (IP masquerading) is enabled by a "-alias" in
> > the command line. That way, the same ppp.conf file can be used with or
> > without masquerading.
I agree totally, and asked Charles to provide such a feature yesterday
morning.
> I've taken a stab at rolling his changes into the -CURRENT code base and
> actually have a 3.0-CURRENT iij-ppp that works, masquerading and all. I
> haven't delved into adding this feature as a command-line option to ppp
> (i.e.: `ppp -alias [system name]` but it doesn't seem too hard to do so.
If you can do it, let me know since that's what stopping me from
integrating the code into the tree. Julian asked me to do it yesterday
but I told him I was waiting for an enable/disable switch for the
functionality from Charles.
> So, my question is this: With whom should I work to have this added into the
> tree? I've been on the consumer side of FreeBSD for a LONG time, I guess
> it's time to contribute something back - now how to proceed? I have DIFF's
> of the 3.0 code base before- and after- making the aliasing changes, but I
> don't know what to do with them (except use 'em ;-).
Send 'em to me. I'll test them and stick 'em in the tree if they
work. :)
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 08:30:02 1996
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Message-ID: <32A5A785.41C67EA6@aristar.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 11:32:05 -0500
From: "Matthew A. Gessner" <mgessner@aristar.com>
Organization: Aristar, Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386)
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To: hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Installing booteasy, Take 2
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Hello, all,
I have a disk that's somewhat corrupt in that it doesn't have a
bootstrap loader.
I can use the boot floppy to boot from 0:wd(0,a)/kernel and move on,
but I need to get off the dependency of the boot floppy.
Can someone please tell me (us) how to install the boot image
booteasy? How does sysinstall do it? How can I do it from sysinstall
without having to completely reinstall everything else?
TIA,
Matt
--
Matthew Gessner, Computer Scientist, <mgessner@aristar.com>
Aristar, Inc.
302 N. Cleveland-Massillon Rd.
Akron, OH 44333
Voice (330) 668-2267, Fax (330) 668-2961
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 09:11:53 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:11:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Title: How to lock up FreeBSD with just 1 command.
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.961204090854.6268U-100000@mail.cdsnet.net>
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Stick a Mac formatted disk in your Jaz drive.
# mount -t msdos /dev/sdXc /mnt (Where sdX is your Jaz drive.)
Pound on the keyboard, ping, telnet, try whatever to revive your box, only
to discover... No dice.
Note that it didn't crash, and no error message was produced anywhere that
I could find, just the machine didn't respond to anything.
P6-200, Adaptec 2940U, Jaz. -current as of 11/29
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 09:59:47 1996
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From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Mark Mayo wrote:
> Hi, I tried to email www@freebsd.org with a problem concerning a link on
> one of the freebsd web pages, but it seems the www alias on freefall
> points to a non-existant user in Germany..
Grrrr... I suppose www should be a majordomo list instead of a
simple alias. Your message did get through to the other 6 or 8
people attached to the www alias.
-john
--PAA04622.849708495/server.zsb.th-darmstadt.de--
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 10:26:16 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:25:06 -0700 (MST)
From: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@glacier.cold.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Help! Turning off DTR on a serial device
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I'm writing some software to use the serial device in FreeBSD (and
Unixware in the long run). I need to know if I can turn off DTR. The
supplied software with this program is for DOS, and manages to turn off
DTR from the software end--but I have never been able to figure out if I
can do this from a unix perspective? Can I? help?
-Brandon Gillespie
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 12:54:15 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:53:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Andrew Webster <andrew@fortress.org>
Reply-To: andrew@pubnix.net
To: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@glacier.cold.org>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Help! Turning off DTR on a serial device
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On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Brandon Gillespie wrote:
> I'm writing some software to use the serial device in FreeBSD (and
> Unixware in the long run). I need to know if I can turn off DTR. The
> supplied software with this program is for DOS, and manages to turn off
> DTR from the software end--but I have never been able to figure out if I
> can do this from a unix perspective? Can I? help?
Very simple, set the baud rate to 0; use the predefined value B0.
Andrew Webster andrew@pubnix.net
PubNIX Montreal Connected to the world Branche au monde
P.O. Box 147 Cote Saint Luc, Quebec H4V 2Y3
tel 514.990.5911 http://www.pubnix.net fax 514.990.9443
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 13:20:10 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612042101.OAA17202@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: The real issue...
To: dyson@freebsd.org
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:01:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com,
thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
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In-Reply-To: <199612040326.WAA02669@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Dec 3, 96 10:26:03 pm
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[ ... John's tools ... ]
> BTW, if you pay me for them, I'll give'em to you. Say, they have taken
> me 500Hrs to produce. Since I would be giving up a large part of my
> ownership, I will ask for approx $50/Hr for my time. For $25K you can
> have whatever software tools that I have, and that will allow me to invest in
> a new Alpha system for the new super-VM system Alpha port for FreeBSD!!!
>
> Then, you can release them for public consumption... In essence, you will
> have employed me to produce them... I think that could work, what do you
> think?
Would thy be "work for hire"? ...in other words, could he release them
under GPL?
8-) 8-).
BTW: do you have a system so you can run them and show what they output
on Linux vs. FreeBSD on the same hardware? A differential in output
would show that it might be worth scraping up $25k to get peoples
grubby little hands on them. 8-).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 13:22:20 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612042058.NAA17190@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: The real issue...
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:58:19 -0700 (MST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org,
thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com,
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In-Reply-To: <199612040245.VAA19411@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Dec 3, 96 09:45:13 pm
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> It is in fact dirty pool, because you have decided to keep the soccer
> ball all to yourselves in certain circumstances. How is this fair?
> And this is precisely what John has stated, that you withold perf
> tools and other similar things which we allow anyone and their
> grandmother to publicly get at.
Actually, John has never stated that his tools are in fact things
which he himself wrote. For all we know, they could be publically
available microbenchmarks from any number of sources (we know that
Larry's tools are one of his sources).
I will agree that the way John states it implies he has tools you
don't, as opposed to him having tools you don't care about, but
could get.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 13:27:25 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612042104.OAA17220@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (Thomas Gellekum)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:04:25 -0700 (MST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk,
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In-Reply-To: <199612040748.IAA20702@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> from "Thomas Gellekum" at Dec 4, 96 08:48:10 am
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> > I'm not disinterested and neither are any of the rest of us who would
> > love to start writing a "SAM" equivalent tool for FreeBSD but lack a
>
> What's SAM?
"Software Automatic Mouth" ...didn't you ever own a Commodore 64?
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 13:59:23 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:57:50 -0600
From: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon)
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Exporting environment vars from make?
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I have a couple of tools that change their behavior depending on the
setting of various environment variables, and would like to place the
makefiles in control of these tools.
However, there doesn't seem to be any way to export arbitrary variables
from a makefile, short of putting an 'export' line in every command, which
seems kind of klunky. (Putting .MAKEFLAGS in the makefile doesn't count -
it doesn't allow overrides from the command line)
Is there any reason why there isn't an .EXPORT: directive in bmake, to
allow exporting arbitrary variables?
--
Jonathan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 14:14:26 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:14:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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To: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Exporting environment vars from make?
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On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Jonathan Lemon wrote:
>
> I have a couple of tools that change their behavior depending on the
> setting of various environment variables, and would like to place the
> makefiles in control of these tools.
>
> However, there doesn't seem to be any way to export arbitrary variables
> from a makefile, short of putting an 'export' line in every command, which
> seems kind of klunky. (Putting .MAKEFLAGS in the makefile doesn't count -
> it doesn't allow overrides from the command line)
>
> Is there any reason why there isn't an .EXPORT: directive in bmake, to
> allow exporting arbitrary variables?
You can control the environment of tools via the env command, do man env.
> --
> Jonathan
>
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data
chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302 |
Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 14:26:36 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612042200.PAA17332@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:00:18 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, julian@whistle.com, cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de,
nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <9612041247.AA21652@wavehh.hanse.de> from "Martin Cracauer" at Dec 4, 96 01:47:57 pm
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> > > He might be correct.
> > > sharing memory spaces makes for a much smaller contect switch.
> >
> > Assuming you switch from one context in a thread group to another.
>
> > In which case, it is possible for a threaded process to starve all
> > other processes, depending on if its resource requests are satisfied
> > before all the remaining threads in the thread group have also made
> > blocking requests (otherwise, you are not prioritizing by being in
> > the thread group, and there are virtually no contex switch overhead
> > wins from doing the threading -- only the win that a single process
> > can compete for N quantums instead of 1 quantum when there are N
> > kernel threads in the thread group).
>
> If I understand you right, your say that the sheduler (the one in the
> kernel, we don't have a userlevel sheduler in this model) must be
> changed to prefer to switch to a thread/process that has the same VM
> bits. If not, the number of cases where the VM space stays across the
> switch are too infrequent. The result would be that the theoretical
> advantage of threads, the faster context switch will be lost in
> practice.
>
> Your concern is that this required change can lead to situations where
> one thread group takes over more resources than planned. Why that? Why
> can't the kernel keep track of the resources spent on one
> process/thread-group and act on that basis?
Because each kernel thread is a "kernel schedulable entity". Quantums
are given to "kernel schedulable entities", they are not given to
thread groups.
For an analogy, do you want all of your FTP clients in a threaded FTP
server to compete per user for quantum, or do you want all N users to
compete for 1/N quantum with all other processes on the system (for
example: against a non-threaded HTTP server)?
This is a "fairness" issue.
If I, as the scheduler, have a "next quantum" to give away, fairness
dictates that I select the next process in the highest priority ready
to run queue to give it to.
Now in order to give it to a process other than this one, I have to
abridge fairness.
Say I have a process ("thread group") that consists of 3 kernel threads,
A, B, and C.
In the abridged scheduler, If A blocks, I prefer to give the next
quantum to kernel schedulable entities B or C instead of the kernel
schedualble entity at the front of the run queue which-may-not-be
B or C.
The same is true for the others:
B blocks; prefer A or C
C blocks; prefer A or B
It's possible that B is a "worker task". Rather than doing I/O, it's
compute intensive... which is to say, rhather than making a system
call and blocking on resource availability ("voluntary context switch"),
the only way to kick B out is for it to consume its entire quantum.
B is always ready to run.
If in that time, the resource block on A or C is satisfied, then when B
quits, A or C gets the next quantum. But when A or C quits with C or A
still blocked, B will *always* get the next quantum, since it is always
ready to run.
Now suppose:
begin_thread_A()
{
while(1)
continue;
}
begin_thread_B()
{
while(1)
continue;
}
No other kernel schedulable entities will ever run once the thread group
becomes active once.
Quantum counting doesn't work as a fix because there may be multiple
user space threads bound to a single kernel thread. Also, I may
have a "treat this thread group as 30 quantums". Doing this would
mean that after 30 quantums of the thead group monopolizing the
CPU, I forcibly exit the thread group preference cycle. This would
result in potentially *very* jerky system response.
The natural amount of time you can monopolize the CPU without the
system becoming jerky is *defined* to be the quantum. Giving away
1/3 of a quantum to a thread in the same thread group is *not* an
option (quantums don't work that way).
Now consider CPU affinity in an SMP environment. A thread will have
an affinity for a CPU relative to the number of cached pages of that
thread in the given CPU.
Now consider that the purpose of kernel threading is to allow kernel
threads to be scheduled on different CPU's. In other words, if A
has an affinity for CPU1, then B will have a negative affinity for
CPU1 (a positive affinity for CPUn, n!=1) proportional to A's affinity;
any other approach, and you will not achieve maximal concurrency in
the given application.
Suddenly, the scheduler becomes so complicated, that the benefit of
having multiple CPUs is diminished!
Preferential scheduling is a back hole.
> In any case, changing the sheduler to favor thread switches instead of
> process switches complicates things so that the implementation effort
> advantage a kernel-only thread solution is at least partially lost.
Not true. It depends on how the usr and kernel stacks are implemented;
if they are implemented as large zones in the virtual address space,
with guard pages for stack grow, then the mappings need not be changes
on context switch. The biggest problem will be on RISC architecures,
like SPARC, where register windows need to be flushed (see "SPARC
Register Windows and User Space Threading" for the University of
Washington CS dept... this is the basis of th SunOS 4.x liblwp threads
implementation).
> > A good thread scheduler requires async system calls (not just I/O)
> > and conversion of blocking calls to non-blocking calls plus a context
>
> It does? [you probably know tyhe following, but for others].
>
> All thread implementations I know details of that are not pure
> userlevel don't change system calls to non-blocking equivalents.
[ ... implementation instances elided ... ]
> The people I listend to so far were all convincend that turning all
> system calls into nonblocking versions will lead into serious
> implementation difficulties, especially if you take further changes
> into account (those will have to be made on two versions of the
> library).
Well, I don't agree with these people. I think that turning any
blocking call into a thread context switch within a process group
(at best) or a full process context switch (at worst: and more
likely on a system doing something other than running a one process
threading benchmark) is a "serious difficulty". 8-).
> Another concern is that most exsiting async I/O interfaces
> don't work reliable.
This is a problem. But it is easily resolved by making a seperate
trap gate, or adding a trap gate parameter, to allow all system
calls to be async.
The context is maintained in the trap gate, not in the calls, and
therefore there are no complications to deal with.
The main implementation hurdle is adding a flag to the systent[]
structure to tag potentially blocking calls vs. non-blocking calls.
Non-blocking calls run to completetion (always), and blocking calls
run to completion where they can, and block otherwise.
The way this is handled is by sleeping on a "going to block" flag
in the thread context in the non-blocking trap (or call gate) on
potentially blocking calls. If the call is going to block, it
must do so with a standard system interface, like tsleep. A tsleep
checks for a block on the call, and returns the context to user
space by clonging the context and putting the call to sleep. The
flag subsequently notifies the wakeup to queue the response for
handing through an "aiowait" (for lack of a better name) interface.
Because it is handled via aiowait(), the wakup can be handled in
aqueued fashion in the same process context that made the call.
Thus the kernel threads which do the actual processing do not
have to have the process context available. They do not care.
Since this is the case, the only issues are reentrancy (which we must
solve anyway) and kernel preemtion (which we must solve anyway, by
analogy, for CPU reentrancy of the kernel, since it is topologically
equivalent). The kernel worker threads themselves can be kept in a
"work to do" pool. Their contribution is the use of their kernel
stack. Effectively:
/*
* Call in trap gate to set up for return of potentially
* non-blocking call made with blocking interface
*/
aiosleep( sysent_entry, this_user_context)
{
some_kernel_thread = get_worker_thread();
/* short duration sleep using lazy switching
* of non-kernel TLB mapping. The switch is
* an explicit yield to our kernel worker thread.
* It will explicitly yield back to us.
*/
some_kernel_thread.proxy = this_user_context;
sleep_and_return( this_user_context, some_kernel_thread);
}
/*
* call when operation must really block
*/
aioblock( some_kernel_thread)
{
/*
* Block this thread pending I/O completion and cause
* system call to return to user space aio scheduler.
*/
sleep_and_yield( some_kernel_thread, some_kerne_thread.proxy);
}
... etc. ...
Thus potentially blocking calls which do not block return immediately,
which potentially blocking calls which *do* block return a context
to the user space scheduler, which then does a user space context
switch to another thread.
In other words, if the system scheduler gives a quantum to a process,
that quantum belongs to that process, and the process is not forced
to give it back before it has used it up... which is one of the
points of threading: increased use of quantum with decreased context
switch overhead.
> I still like the simpliticity of a kernel-only thread solution. If
> that way turns out to be too inefficient, the DEC way seems to be a
> solution that doesn't need async system calls and has no efficiency
> disadvantage I can see (compared to a sysyem with async syscalls
> only).
>
> I hope to get further details on the DEC implementation.
I hope so too; however, there is little difference between AST's with
context records and bocking->non-blocking conversion.
> > switch in user space (quasi-cooperative scheduling, like SunOS 4.1.3
> > liblwp). This would result in a kernel thread consuming its full
> > quantum, potentially on several threads, before going on. One of
>
> I still don't know why we can't made the kernel keeping track of the
> timeslices spent on thread groups and shedule on that basis.
See above...
> > the consequences of this is that sleep intervals below the quantum
> > interval, which will work now, without a high degree of reliability,
> > will now be guaranteed to *not* work at all. Timing on most X games
> > using a select() with a timeout to run background processing, for
> > instance, will fail on systems that use this, unless a kernel preempt
> > (a "real time" interrupt) is generated as a result of time expiration,
> > causing the select()-held process to run at the time the event occurs,
> > instead of simply scheduling the process to run. This leads to buzz
> > loop starvation unless you limit the number of times in an interval
> > that you allow a process to preeempt (ie: drop virtual priority on
> > a process each time it preempts this way, and rest on quantum interval).
>
> Another reason why I'd like to have only one sheduler (in the kernel).
No. The fix for this problem is to make SysV systems meet SVID III(RT)
for setitimer/getitimer/gettimeofday/select. Currently, most SVR4
systems do not meet the strict interpretation of the System V Interface
Definition because they state that they will function at system clock
frequency, but only implement on system clock global variable update
frequency.
For BSD, it means kernel preemption (treat an itimer/select timer
expiration event as an RT event, and make sure that the games have
RT class access -- even if they aren't RT programs themselves).
You probably want to do the same thing for mouse event handling via
moused, for the same reasons. No matter ho loaded the system, you
want to guarantee that when you move the mouse, the pointer will
move. Otherwise, you violate the proprioception assumptions which
make mouse/cursor interfaces work against human motor/cognitive
expectations ("I move my hand, the thing in my hand moves, the mouse
pointer moves, therefore the mouse pointer is the thing in my hand").
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 14:40:35 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:40:18 -0500
From: Howard Goldstein <hgoldste@bbs.mpcs.com>
Message-Id: <199612042240.RAA18790@bbs.mpcs.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Anyone running sendmail 8.8.3 successfully?
In-Reply-To: <v01540b03aec87c45a160@[194.32.164.2]>
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In article <v01540b03aec87c45a160@[194.32.164.2]>, you wrote:
: I've been trying out sendmail 8.8.3 on 2.1R, I'm seeing a number of:
:
: sendmail[19693]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): SMTP-MAIL: died on signal 11
Now that everyone has told you it works on their system, it's probably
time to figure out why it doesn't on your's ;-)
Did the 8.7.3 (I think it was) that installed with 2.1R work?
How did you build 8.8.3?
How do you invoke sendmail?
Who owns /var/spool/mqueue?
--
Howard Goldstein <hgoldste@bbs.mpcs.com>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 15:38:40 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:28:44 +0100
From: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de>
Message-Id: <199612042328.AAA00607@campa.panke.de>
To: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: www@freebsd.org -> Returned mail: User unknown (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961204093901.3147C-120000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961204093901.3147C-120000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
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Mark Mayo writes:
>Hi, I tried to email www@freebsd.org with a problem concerning a link on
>one of the freebsd web pages, but it seems the www alias on freefall
>points to a non-existant user in Germany..
Problem fixed, sendmail configuration mistake on www.de.freebsd.org.
Wolfram
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 15:54:52 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:54:28 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
Reply-To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Jake Hamby <jehamby@lightside.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Speaking of performance...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961130032519.229B-100000@hamby1>
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Are you confusing streams with the STREAM benchmark?
Mike Hancock
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Jake Hamby wrote:
> That TCP bandwidth thread was obnoxious, but I was interested in one
> comment from Mr. Miller (and Terry Lambert's response) on STREAM
> performance, and Solaris performance tuning. Sun has a new IPC mechanism
> called "doors" which came from their Spring OS project that they claimed
> in a recent developer newsletter is faster than any other form of IPC in
> Solaris. Right now the door system call is officially UNdocumented (an
> excerpt from "man door" is included below for your amusement), and the
> only thing that uses it is nscd (name service cache daemon, which caches
> passwd, group, and host data), but I'd expect it to take a bigger role in
> Solaris 2.6. Terry, or anyone, is this a technology worth investigating,
> or just some tidbit that Sun threw in because STREAMs were so slow?
>
> -- Jake
>
> door(2) System Calls door(2)
>
> WARNING
> Please do not attempt to reverse-engineer the interface and
> program to it. If you do, your program will almost certainly
> fail to run on future versions of Solaris, and may even be
> broken by a patch. This document does not constitute an
> API. Doors may not exist or may have a completely different
> set of semantics in a future release.
>
> NOTES
> This manual page is here solely for the benefit of anyone
> who noticed door_call() in truss(1) output and thought,
> "Gee, I wonder what that does..."
>
> SunOS 5.5.1 Last change: 29 Aug 1995 1
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 15:55:17 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:53:46 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
Reply-To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Larry McVoy <lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com>
cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, FreeBSD Hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@relay.engr.SGI.COM, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: New benchmarks to design
In-Reply-To: <199612032219.OAA22523@neteng.engr.sgi.com>
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I'd be interested in the following:
fragStone: A benchmark that does file operations designed to fragment the
hell out of a file system and then measures fragmentation and its effect
on performance.
ftp-uptimeStone: Accepts n connections and an optional t stop time and
tries to maximize transfer volume. An interesting variation would be a
entropic version that puts some jitter into the number of connections and
the transfer bytes requested. This would require client and server
software. This would probably be marginally more interesting than crashme
but at least more realistic.
worldStone: cd /usr/src; make world. This is important to people who
build world a lot. In observing, results posted on this list there's a
big difference when going from 486's to P5's and then to P6's. However,
it does have to move memory around and read and write temp files, object
files, and binaries, etc. I think Staelin paper said that performance
will be limited by (1+c/i) where c is compute seconds and i is io seconds.
If i is significant then improvements to c will have little effect. I
think we're approaching this.
Regards,
Mike Hancock
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 15:56:18 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:56:05 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
Reply-To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: "Jukka A. Ukkonen" <jau@jau.tmt.tele.fi>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: POSIX.4 style extended memory locking???
In-Reply-To: <199612031321.PAA24818@jau.tmt.tele.fi>
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On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Jukka A. Ukkonen wrote:
>
> Hi everybody!
>
> Has anyone implemented POSIX.4 style mlockall() and munlockall()
> for FreeBSD already?
I don't think so, I think Ron Minnich had interest in this.
Mike Hancock
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 16:01:11 1996
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: julian@whistle.com, cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de, nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU,
freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Dec 1996 15:00:18 MST."
<199612042200.PAA17332@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 18:55:30 -0500
From: Bakul Shah <bakul@plexuscom.com>
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> Because each kernel thread is a "kernel schedulable entity". Quantums
> are given to "kernel schedulable entities", they are not given to
> thread groups.
>
[...]
>
> This is a "fairness" issue.
>
> If I, as the scheduler, have a "next quantum" to give away, fairness
> dictates that I select the next process in the highest priority ready
> to run queue to give it to.
If, instead of treating a thread *as* a schedulable entity, you
allow a set of threads to *belong to* the same schedulable entity,
you can be fair and get around the problems you mentined. The
kernel runs threads from the same group as long as their quantum has
not expired and atleast one of them is runnable. When it switches
back to the same group, it will use a FIFO scheme: the first
runnable thread to give up the processor is the first to run.
[Didn't the Thoth OS have something like this?]
As an example, if threads A B and C belong to the same schedulable
entity, then when A blocks, B gets to run provided the quantum is
not used up. When B blocks, C will run. Now if C hogs the CPU, it
will be kicked out at the end of the quantum. The next time this
group is run, A will be run (if it has unblocked) since it was the
first to give up the CPU.
This way even a compute bound thread will not hog the processor
nor will it be allowed to be unfair to threads in other groups.
> Now consider that the purpose of kernel threading is to allow kernel
> threads to be scheduled on different CPU's. In other words, if A
> has an affinity for CPU1, then B will have a negative affinity for
> CPU1 (a positive affinity for CPUn, n!=1) proportional to A's affinity;
> any other approach, and you will not achieve maximal concurrency in
> the given application.
> Suddenly, the scheduler becomes so complicated, that the benefit of
> having multiple CPUs is diminished!
The above idea can be extended to multi processors fairly easily.
Though multi-processor schedulers that can also do realtime
scheduling (and appropriately deal with priority inversion) are not
easy.
No time to respond to some of your other points :-(
-- bakul
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 16:41:05 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:07:32 -0300 (ARST)
From: Miguel Angel Sagreras <msagre@cactus.fi.uba.ar>
To: emulation@freebsd.org
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Running ORACLE 7.2.2.4 on FreeBSD 2.2-SNAP
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To get ORACLE 7.2.2.4 for SCO running on FreeBSD 2.2-961014-SNAP, I have to
modify two system call in the IBCS2 emulator. The first one was
the system call ulimit, it returns -1 on type conversion between
the 64 bits in the FreeBSD ffs and 32 bits type SCO fs causing
ORACLE exit. The second one was signal system call, I had to mask
IBCS2_..._MASK in it, I haven't IBCS2 reference manual, to modify
the source to get the rigth code.
To see the signal systemcall problem. I run the SCO binary of the
next program.
#include <stdio.h>
#include <signal.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <sys/ipc.h>
#include <sys/sem.h>
int sid;
struct sembuf sb;
int time;
void sigalarm (int id)
{
signal (0x100|SIGALRM, sigalarm);
alarm (1);
printf ("%d %s\n",time+1, (time) ? "times" : "time");
time++;
semop (sid, &sb, 1);
}
main ()
{
sid = semget (1234, 5, IPC_CREAT|0666);
sb.sem_num = 1;
sb.sem_op = -1;
sb.sem_flg = 0;
signal (0x100|SIGALRM, sigalarm);
alarm (1);
semop (sid, &sb, 1);
return 0;
}
When I run it on SCO, I got this output.
1 time
2 times
3 times
4 times
....
But when I run in FreeBSD, I got only this.
1 time
Here, you have the modification I did.
In file ibcs2_misc.c function ibcs2_ulimit
case IBCS2_GETFSIZE:
*retval = p->p_rlimit[RLIMIT_FSIZE].rlim_cur;
if (*retval == -1) (*retval)--;
return 0;
In ibcs2_signal.c function ibcs2_sigsys
int ibcs2_sigsys(p, uap, retval)
register struct proc *p;
struct ibcs2_sigsys_args *uap;
int *retval;
{ struct sigaction sa;
int signum;
int error;
caddr_t sg = stackgap_init();
uap->sig &= 0xff;
signum = ibcs2_to_bsd_sig[IBCS2_SIGNO(SCARG(uap, sig))];
Miguel A. Sagreras
Facultad de ingenieria
Universidad de Buenos Aires
e-mail : msagre@cactus.fi.uba.ar
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 16:55:47 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612050051.TAA04790@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design
To: michaelh@cet.co.jp
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:51:31 -0500 (EST)
Cc: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi, lm@relay.engr.SGI.COM, iain@sbs.de,
sparclinux@vger.rutgers.edu
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.95.961204161549.17926B-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp> from "Michael Hancock" at Dec 5, 96 08:53:46 am
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>
> worldStone: cd /usr/src; make world. This is important to people who
> build world a lot. In observing, results posted on this list there's a
> big difference when going from 486's to P5's and then to P6's. However,
> it does have to move memory around and read and write temp files, object
> files, and binaries, etc. I think Staelin paper said that performance
> will be limited by (1+c/i) where c is compute seconds and i is io seconds.
> If i is significant then improvements to c will have little effect. I
> think we're approaching this.
>
worldStone will also motivate developers to keep bloat out of the
entire source code tree. This is a really good negative feedback
mechanism for that purpose. This measurement is becoming more and
more practical with faster and faster processors... The goal
is to make it as fast as 'iozone auto' is now.
(for the humor impaired -- I am kidding :-)).
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 17:29:48 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:29:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.95.961204161549.17926B-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp>
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On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Michael Hancock wrote:
> I'd be interested in the following:
[SNIP]
>
> worldStone: cd /usr/src; make world. This is important to people who
> build world a lot. In observing, results posted on this list there's a
> big difference when going from 486's to P5's and then to P6's. However,
> it does have to move memory around and read and write temp files, object
> files, and binaries, etc. I think Staelin paper said that performance
> will be limited by (1+c/i) where c is compute seconds and i is io seconds.
> If i is significant then improvements to c will have little effect. I
> think we're approaching this.
>
This certainly seems to be the case for me these days.. I did a make world
last night, and watched it a little more closely than I usually do =) I
noticed that my CPU didn't really get less than 20% idle for the entire
build. THe load average on the system hovered around .50
This would leave me to believe that I'm waiting on I/O more than waiting
on the CPU. 1+c/i seems like a reasonable function...
It takes about 3 hours and 15 minutes to do a complete make world
(including contrib, with gcc, etc..) right now. I'm looking forward to
getting a new disk, and splitting up the /usr/src and /usr/obj to see if
this will speed up the build time. My disk is very full right now, and
rather slow (about 3.5 MB/s write, 4.5 read) - maybe I'll borrow a few
disks from school and try out ccd as well to see what the results are.
It would be nice to have a benchmark/utility that could help aid in
suggesting where bottlenecks are occuring!
-Mark
---------------------------------------------------
| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com |
| RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark |
---------------------------------------------------
"To iterate is human, to recurse divine."
- L. Peter Deutsch
> Regards,
>
>
> Mike Hancock
>
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 17:37:48 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612050130.MAA18971@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Running ORACLE 7.2.2.4 on FreeBSD 2.2-SNAP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.961204210556.15105D-100000@cactus.fi.uba.ar> from Miguel Angel Sagreras at "Dec 4, 96 09:07:32 pm"
To: msagre@cactus.fi.uba.ar (Miguel Angel Sagreras)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:00:16 +1030 (CST)
Cc: emulation@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Miguel Angel Sagreras stands accused of saying:
>
> To get ORACLE 7.2.2.4 for SCO running on FreeBSD 2.2-961014-SNAP, I have to
... can anyone confirm that this works for them too? If so, I'll
commit the changes.
Thanks Miguel!
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 17:51:48 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:50:40 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199612050150.SAA13134@rocky.mt.sri.com>
From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: Miguel Angel Sagreras <msagre@cactus.fi.uba.ar>
Cc: emulation@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Running ORACLE 7.2.2.4 on FreeBSD 2.2-SNAP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.961204210556.15105D-100000@cactus.fi.uba.ar>
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> To get ORACLE 7.2.2.4 for SCO running on FreeBSD 2.2-961014-SNAP, I have to
> modify two system call in the IBCS2 emulator. The first one was
> the system call ulimit, it returns -1 on type conversion between
> the 64 bits in the FreeBSD ffs and 32 bits type SCO fs causing
> ORACLE exit.
I've submitted this fix to the code in -current.
> The second one was signal system call, I had to mask
> IBCS2_..._MASK in it, I haven't IBCS2 reference manual, to modify
> the source to get the rigth code.
I need more time to look at this one. Does anyone else have a manual
handy to check out what the code is supposed to do? Is the supplied fix
correct?
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 17:54:33 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612050154.MAA19160@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961204202201.5327A-100000@vinyl.quickweb.com> from Mark Mayo at "Dec 4, 96 08:29:02 pm"
To: mark@quickweb.com (Mark Mayo)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:24:18 +1030 (CST)
Cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@freebsd.org
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Mark Mayo stands accused of saying:
>
> This certainly seems to be the case for me these days.. I did a make world
> last night, and watched it a little more closely than I usually do =) I
> noticed that my CPU didn't really get less than 20% idle for the entire
> build. THe load average on the system hovered around .50
Do you have '-pipe' in CFLAGS in /etc/make.conf? Enough memory? SCSI?
A more reasonable load average for 'make world' is 1.2 or so, and normally
less than 10% idle in my experience.
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 18:09:55 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:08:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design
In-Reply-To: <199612050154.MAA19160@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Michael Smith wrote:
> Mark Mayo stands accused of saying:
> >
> > This certainly seems to be the case for me these days.. I did a make world
> > last night, and watched it a little more closely than I usually do =) I
> > noticed that my CPU didn't really get less than 20% idle for the entire
> > build. THe load average on the system hovered around .50
>
> Do you have '-pipe' in CFLAGS in /etc/make.conf? Enough memory? SCSI?
> A more reasonable load average for 'make world' is 1.2 or so, and normally
> less than 10% idle in my experience.
Always wanted to know what -pipe did; neato! No I didn't have it in
there.. I don't really want to use the suggested -O2 -m486 however, so I
think I'll add -pipe. I don't have the time to do another make world to
compare however.. I've got 32 MB or RAM - is this considered enough?
SCSI - of course: NCR 810, but the disk (CONNER CFP1060S 1.05GB 2035) is
rather slow. CPU is a 150MHz pentium pro, 128-bit interleaved RAM (STREAM
says about 94MB/s..).
Any idea how much faster -pipe generally speeds up the compilation? I'm
assuming I might need more RAM for the PIPES to talk though.. I'll be up
to 48MB soon, then I'll be happy :-)
Thanks,
-Mark
>
> --
> ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
> ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
> ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
> ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
> ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 18:21:03 1996
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From: Joe McGuckin <joe@via.net>
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To: jehamby@lightside.com
Subject: truss, trace ??
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Is there a comparable program for freebsd?
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 18:37:18 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612050216.TAA18540@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
To: bakul@plexuscom.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:16:40 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, julian@whistle.com, cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de,
nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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> > If I, as the scheduler, have a "next quantum" to give away, fairness
> > dictates that I select the next process in the highest priority ready
> > to run queue to give it to.
>
> If, instead of treating a thread *as* a schedulable entity, you
> allow a set of threads to *belong to* the same schedulable entity,
> you can be fair and get around the problems you mentined. The
> kernel runs threads from the same group as long as their quantum has
> not expired and atleast one of them is runnable. When it switches
> back to the same group, it will use a FIFO scheme: the first
> runnable thread to give up the processor is the first to run.
>
> [Didn't the Thoth OS have something like this?]
>
> As an example, if threads A B and C belong to the same schedulable
> entity, then when A blocks, B gets to run provided the quantum is
> not used up. When B blocks, C will run. Now if C hogs the CPU, it
> will be kicked out at the end of the quantum. The next time this
> group is run, A will be run (if it has unblocked) since it was the
> first to give up the CPU.
>
> This way even a compute bound thread will not hog the processor
> nor will it be allowed to be unfair to threads in other groups.
It will, however, be unfair to threads within the group.
Scenario 1:
o Site provides FTP archive
o FTP forks per incoming FTP request up to N ftpd's
o each ftpd competes for one quantum with M non-FTP
processes on the system
o probability of a single ftpd making a blocking call
instead of losing quantum is P
o probability of single ftp consuming quantum and being
involuntarily switched instead of making a blocking
call is (1-P)
Clearly, for any set of X quanta available, a given ftpd will consume
X/(N+M) * P quanta units.
Scenario 2:
o Site provides FTP archive
o FTP creates thread per incoming FTP request up to
N threads
o each ftpd thread competes for quantum in the thread
group. The thread group competes for one quantum
with M non-threaded FTP processes on the system
o probability of a single ftpd thread making a blocking
call instead of losing quantum is P'
o probability of single ftp thread consuming quantum and
being involuntarily switched instead of making a blocking
call is (1-P')
The calculation in the threaded case must take into account:
P' = P - ((1/P) * 100) % 100)/100
... in other words:
1) the probability of a given thread running until it is blocked
is dependent on wheter or not it starts processing with a full
or partial quantum. If 1/P is not an integer, the probability
is reduced.
You must also consider that quantum is valued at (int)1/P'; in other
words, for every thread which can run until it blocks in any given
quantum instead of being invountarily context switched, you count
one "effective quantum".
So each thread consume X(1+M) quanta for X(1+M)*"effective quantum"
units of work per X quanta.
Unless M is less than or equal to the number of units of work, making
the process threaded using your "remaining quantum" algorithm will
unfairly penalize the threaded program for being threaded by reducing
the total number of quanta units per effective quantum (the value of
effective quantum is 1 for the non-threaded program).
For MP, mulitply "effective quantum" units of work per X quanta by
the number of CPUs.
I believe M <= "units of work per X quanta" is a special case
describing an unloaded machine running (nearly) nothing but the
threaded process.
It's unfortunate that most threading benchmarks are run in such
environments, and falsely show threading to be a win in terms of
context switch overhead vs. available quantum.
In laymans terms: "we recommend writing threaded apps so your app will
get propotionately less CPU than everybody's apps who didn't listen
to our recommendations. In addition, your apps performance will drop
off expotentially faster than those of your competitor trying to sell
into the same market, driven by the number of threads divided by
the 'effective quantum', as system load not related to only your app
goes up".
Or even more simply: "use one-quantum-per-thread-group threads to make
you look bad and your competition look good".
8-|
> The above idea can be extended to multi processors fairly easily.
> Though multi-processor schedulers that can also do realtime
> scheduling (and appropriately deal with priority inversion) are not
> easy.
Heh. "locking nodes in a directed acylic graph representing a lock
heirarchy" will address the priority inversion handily -- assuming
you compute transitive closure over the entire graph, instead of the
subelements for a single processors or kernel subsystem. This
requires that you be clere with per processor memory regions for
global objects which are scoped in per processor pools. For instance,
say I have N processors.
global lock
/
/
VM lock
/ | \
/ | \
XXX global page pool ...
/ | \
/ | \
CPU 1 CPU 2 ... CPU N page pool locks
init_page_locks( 2)
{
lock global lock IX (intention exclusive)
lock VM lock IX
lock global page pool IX
lock CPU 2 page pool lock IX
/* promise no one but CPU2, single threaded, will touch
* CPU 2 page pool...
*/
lock CPU 2 page pool lock X (exclusive)
}
alloc_page( 2) /* someone on CPU 2 wants a page...*/
{
is page pool at low water mark? {
/* Prevent other CPU's from doing same...*/
lock X global page pool
get pages from global page pool into CPU 2 page pool
/* OK for other CPU's to do same...*/
unlock X global page pool
}
return = get page from CPU 2 page pool
}
free_page( 2) /* someone on CPU is throwing a page away*/
put page in CPU 2 page pool
is page pool at high water mark? {
/* Prevent other CPU's from doing same...*/
lock X global page pool
put pages from CPU 2 page pool into global page pool
/* OK for other CPU's to do same...*/
unlock X global page pool
}
}
No need to hold a global lock or hit the bus for inter-CPU state unless
we hit the high or low water mark...
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 18:53:36 1996
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From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis <jonny@mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br>
Message-Id: <199612050253.AAA01139@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br>
Subject: 2.2-ALPHA (was: Sendmail 8.8.4 questions...)
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:53:14 -0200 (EDT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, aimeusaco@rivendel.lin.ufrj.br
In-Reply-To: <199612042334.QAA12288@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Dec 4, 96 04:34:02 pm"
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#define quoting(Nate Williams)
// > IMHO, such security problem patches SHOULD get committed to the 2.1 tree
// > UNTIL 2.2 has proven itself. Since 2.2 is just now in "beta", I would guess
// > that might be around March, 1997.
//
// Huh? 2.2 is going to be released *long* before that time. In order for
// it to 'become' proven, it has to be used. If people aren't willing to
// test it then it'll never be 'stable'.
Ok. Let me try again, so. Now, the fourth time, I think.
I can't get my machine to boot the 2.2-ALPHA boot.flp in my desktop
machine, where I'd like to try keeping -current. It's running 2.1.6.1
right now, and has already run 2.1.0 and 2.1.5 without any trouble.
The boot sequence is as follows:
...
Boot:
dosdev= 0, biosdrive = 0, unit = 0, maj = 2
Booting 0:fd(0,a)/kernel @ 0x24b000
text=0x115000 data=0x0 bss=0xa00 symbols=[+0x600+0x4+0x270+0x4+0x1f4]
total=0x36146c entry point=0x24b000
Uncompressing kernel...done
Booting the kernel
_
^- this above is the blinking cursor
The keyboard still works (caps-lock and ctrl-alt-del), but nothing
more happens. Note also that this is not new. I'm trying to run
-current since May -SNAP (sorry, don't remember the date number),
and never has worked.
Which kind of info can I send to help find the problem ? It's a
486 DX2/66, VLB/ISA, 32M Ram, ALI chipset, IDE HD.
Jonny
--
Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br
+55 21 290-4698 ( Job ) jonny@cisi.coppe.ufrj.br
Network Manager UFRJ/COPPE/CISI
Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 19:39:30 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 22:37:26 -0500 (EST)
From: "Eric J. Chet" <ejc@gargoyle.bazzle.com>
To: Joe McGuckin <joe@via.net>
cc: jehamby@lightside.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
In-Reply-To: <199612050220.SAA09742@monk.via.net>
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On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Joe McGuckin wrote:
>
> Is there a comparable program for freebsd?
>
man ktrace
Eric J. Chet
- ejc@bazzle.com
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 20:42:47 1996
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To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
cc: FreeBSD Hackers <hackers@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Dec 1996 08:53:46 +0900."
<Pine.SV4.3.95.961204161549.17926B-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 20:42:40 -0800
Message-ID: <5487.849760960@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> worldStone: cd /usr/src; make world. This is important to people who
> build world a lot. In observing, results posted on this list there's a
This is actually a useful composite benchmark. However, if you're
going to collect worldstone values then you need to be REALLY REALLY
sure of several things before you accept the numbers:
1. The /etc/make.conf values are the same on every machine building
the world. If I compile with -O2 and -pipe and you just compile
with -O and -pipe, our numbers are going to vary widely.
2. The source tree built from is the exact same one, not just a fuzzy
value of -current.
3. The source tree is fully cleaned before starting or you will also be
adding in the time it takes to remove the old objects when the build
starts.
4. The machines have the same amount of memory, for obvious reasons.
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 22:02:51 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 22:02:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: MYLEX RAID: If somebody will write the driver, I have the , hardware...
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I have a single channel PCI mylex controller that I would be willing to
loan to anybody that would be willing to write the driver for it. If
necessary, I could probably cough up a few quantum atlas's to go with it
for testing.
Let me know if you're interested.
I'm also willing to help extract documents from Mylex if need be.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 22:27:07 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:26:56 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design
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On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Mark Mayo wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Michael Hancock wrote:
>
> > I'd be interested in the following:
>
> [SNIP]
> >
> > worldStone: cd /usr/src; make world. This is important to people who
> > build world a lot. In observing, results posted on this list there's a
> > big difference when going from 486's to P5's and then to P6's. However,
> > it does have to move memory around and read and write temp files, object
> > files, and binaries, etc. I think Staelin paper said that performance
> > will be limited by (1+c/i) where c is compute seconds and i is io seconds.
> > If i is significant then improvements to c will have little effect. I
> > think we're approaching this.
> >
>
> This certainly seems to be the case for me these days.. I did a make world
> last night, and watched it a little more closely than I usually do =) I
> noticed that my CPU didn't really get less than 20% idle for the entire
> build. THe load average on the system hovered around .50
>
> This would leave me to believe that I'm waiting on I/O more than waiting
> on the CPU. 1+c/i seems like a reasonable function...
>
> It takes about 3 hours and 15 minutes to do a complete make world
If you have a P5 a P6 will probably get you under 1 hour 30 minutes.
However, I'm guessing that unless break throughs in disk performance
occur, the gains of the P7 and other faster processors will be less
dramatic.
One thing is for sure, our buffer cache works well. We are highly
leveraged towards reads because reads are more frequent. Physical disk
read i/o is actually less frequent than physical disk write i/o because of
the buffer cache. This is why Seltzer and Oustermann have been looking at
improving write performance.
The write algorithms in ufs are conservative and use a lot of synchronous
operations. It also takes pains to improve read performance by careful
placement of data blocks. The algorithms group writes into cylinder
groups and the algorithm also reduces fragmentation. Though modern disks
are quite different having zones of cylinders with a different number of
sectors it is believed that the cylinder group optimization is still good
for reads. The rotational delay stuff is definitely no longer useful, but
we turn it off anyway.
The question is whether all these optimizations at the expense of writes
is really all that useful for general applications since the buffer
cache works so well.
There are a lot of writes in worldStone.
Regards,
Mike Hancock
From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 4 22:56:53 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 22:56:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: What's the limit on the number of disk devices in FreeBSD?
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I'm trying to make sd40 and sd41, and MAKEDEV is failing.
Now I could fix MAKEDEV to not kick it out as an error, but there must be
a reason that it's not allowed.
(I'm using wired devices on a 3940UW and 2940's, which allows a total of
40 some odd devices to be attached.)
Is there some bogus kernel limit? (Or unbogus as the case may be?)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 00:28:30 1996
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From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer)
Message-Id: <9612050824.AA20317@wavehh.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:24:25 +0100 (MET)
Cc: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de, terry@lambert.org, julian@whistle.com,
nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612042200.PAA17332@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Dec 4, 96 03:00:18 pm
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I wrote:
> > I still like the simpliticity of a kernel-only thread solution. If
> > that way turns out to be too inefficient, the DEC way seems to be a
> > solution that doesn't need async system calls and has no efficiency
> > disadvantage I can see (compared to a sysyem with async syscalls
> > only).
> >
> > I hope to get further details on the DEC implementation.
Here's what Dave Butenhof <butenhof@zko.dec.com> told me about DEC's
interface. Dave implements the userlevel part of DEC's thread
interface. This answer is a bit out of context, if you need the
previous discussion, please let me know.
My original question was how blocking syscalls are treated. In Digital
Unix, the kernel reports a blocking syscall in one thread back to the
userlevel library, which reshedules another thread on that "kernel"
thread. I asked for further details how a userlevel library could get
rid of an already blocking syscall, and here's what I heared:
> ~Message-Id: <32A5797C.6231@zko.dec.com>
> ~Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 08:15:40 -0500
> ~From: Dave Butenhof <butenhof@zko.dec.com>
> ~Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
> ~To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de
> ~Cc: "Butenhof, Dave" <butenhof@zko.dec.com>
> ~Subject: Re: Blocking syscall handling in one-to-many thread implementations
>
> [...]
>
> [This was my, Martins, question]
> > But how exactly is resheduling on your KECs done? If a KECs is waiting
> > in a blocking syscall, how can the userlevel sheduler reassign it? How
> > can the userlevel library free it from the syscall?
> >
> > And what happens to the syscall? Is it translated into a non-blocking
> > version and the kernel informs the userlevel sheduler when it arrives?
>
> I was trying to describe what happens from YOUR perspective, more than
> what actually happens in the thread library & kernel. The internals are,
> as always, a little more complicated.
>
> The thread library maintains a constant pool of (up to) <n> KECs, where
> <n> is normally set by the number of physical processors in the system.
> (It may be smaller, if your process is locked into a processor set.)
> These are the "virtual processors" (VPs). The thread library schedules
> user threads on the pool of VPs, trying to keep all <n> of them busy. If
> you don't have enough user threads to keep that many VPs busy, they may
> not all get started, or VPs already running may go into the "null
> thread" loop and idle -- which returns the KEC to the kernel's pool for
> reuse. We'll get it back if we need it later.
>
> When a thread blocks in the kernel, the KEC stays in the kernel, but it
> gives us an upcall in a *new* (or recycled) KEC to replace the VP. When
> the blocking operation finishes, the kernel gives us a completion upcall
> in the original KEC. It's no longer a VP, so we just save the context
> and dismiss it.
>
> The key is the distinction between "KEC" and "VP". There may be 100 KECs
> attached to a process, but, on a typical quad-CPU system, only (up to) 4
> of them at any time are "VPs". The rest are just holding kernel context
> across some blocking operation. Whereas, in a strict kernel-mode
> implementation, each user thread is a KEC, we have a KEC only for each
> running thread and each thread blocked in the kernel. The number of KECs
> will fluctuate -- and, if you hit your quota for KECs (Mach threads),
> any additional kernel blocking operations will start to lower
> concurrency. The most common blocking operations, mutexes & condition
> variables (and some others), however, are completely in user mode.
>
> We're going to continue streamlining the process as we go (like moving
> some kernel blocking states out into user mode, and reducing the context
> that the kernel needs to keep below a full KEC), but, in general, it
> works very well. The kernel developer and I (I work mostly in the
> library) have kicked around the idea of doing a paper on the design.
> Mostly, I've been too busy with a book for a ridiculously long time, and
> the development requirements never stop. Maybe some day. Possibly once
> we've gone through a full release cycle and have the architecture
> stabilized better.
>
> /---[ Dave Butenhof ]-----------------------[ butenhof@zko.dec.com ]---\
> | Digital Equipment Corporation 110 Spit Brook Rd ZKO2-3/Q18 |
> | 603.881.2218, FAX 603.881.0120 Nashua NH 03062-2698 |
> \-----------------[ Better Living Through Concurrency ]----------------/
>
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 00:32:27 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:44:42 +0100 (MET)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199612050844.JAA17324@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: ccd considerations
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I'm planning to equip my mirror machine (ftp.de.freebsd.org)
with two 3.2 GB Quantum Fireball Tempest drives (any objections?)
and now the question:
When configuring a ccd disk would there be any benefit if I
use two controllers (ncr/pci) instead of one?
--Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 01:37:10 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:36:50 +0100 (MET)
From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@korin.warman.org.pl>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: if_de.c && autosense disabling
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Hi!
I recently installed an SMC EtherPower card in my machine (2.2-ALPHA,
P5 133MHz, 64MB RAM, AHA2940U & Fujitsu 2.4G, MB Soyo Triton HX).
I noticed certain behavior of the if_de driver, which is rather annoying.
I use 10baseT cable, and during bootup it gets recognized ("autosensed")
properly. When I physically disconnected the cable from the card (I had to
plug it into another wall socket, on the same hub), the driver began
switching to other types of media (AUI, then BNC).
Unfortunately, when I reconnected the UTP cable, nothing happened, i.e.
the driver was still stuck to the BNC port. And I still didn't see the
net, of course.
So, perhaps it would be good to add some flag (via ifconfig??? via -c
during bootup???) or a compile option to if_de.c to tell the driver that I
don't need any autosensing nor switching to other media - I just want my
plain vanilla UTP (AUI/BNC/other :-), that's all.
I saw such an option in Linux driver, and recompiling the driver with this
option worked just fine.
Is this a good idea, or a bad one? Or, maybe I'm missing something.
BTW, as a side effect to this, switching to other media flushed my routing
table so it was totally empty! so after I reconnected UTP cable, I had to
make ifconfig down/up to reset the driver to initial state, and still
nothing worked. So then I had to make 'route add default....' and so on.
Otherwise I could only reboot to make it work. It seems the whole process
is too big a penalty for pulling out the cable for just a moment.
Andy,
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Andrzej Bialecki <abial@warman.org.pl> _) _) _)_) _)_)_) _) _)
--------------------------------------- _)_) _) _) _) _)_) _)_)
Research and Academic Network in Poland _) _)_) _)_)_)_) _) _) _)
Bartycka 18, 00-716 Warsaw, Poland _) _) _) _) _)_)_) _) _)
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 02:10:12 1996
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
To: joe@via.net (Joe McGuckin)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:09:47 +1100 (EDT)
Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199612050220.SAA09742@monk.via.net> from "Joe McGuckin" at Dec 4, 96 06:20:34 pm
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In some mail from Joe McGuckin, sie said:
>
> Is there a comparable program for freebsd?
Be nice if there was an option for it to output (immeadiately) to stdout
rather than ktrace.out.
Darren
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 02:24:35 1996
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The real issue...
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:20:40 +1100 (EDT)
Cc: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, hackers@freebsd.org,
torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi
In-Reply-To: <199612042101.OAA17202@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Dec 4, 96 02:01:17 pm
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In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
>
> BTW: do you have a system so you can run them and show what they output
> on Linux vs. FreeBSD on the same hardware? A differential in output
> would show that it might be worth scraping up $25k to get peoples
> grubby little hands on them. 8-).
Hmmm, where should I get a good version of lmbench from ? I've got
FreeBSD-2.1.5/NetBSD-1.1/Linux 2.0 & 2.1/Solaris2.5 all on the same
pc...or any other interesting benchmarks to run ?
Darren
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 02:40:04 1996
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Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas?
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:38:55 +0100 (MEZ)
Cc: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org,
p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612042104.OAA17220@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Dec 4, 96 02:04:25 pm
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E-mail message from Terry Lambert contained:
> > > I'm not disinterested and neither are any of the rest of us who would
> > > love to start writing a "SAM" equivalent tool for FreeBSD but lack a
> >
> > What's SAM?
>
> "Software Automatic Mouth" ...didn't you ever own a Commodore 64?
^^^^^^^^^
Artificial :)
/Marino
>
>
> Terry Lambert
> terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 05:57:59 1996
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Message-Id: <Mutt.19961205145036.se@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:50:36 +0100
From: se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser)
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com,
thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, hackers@freebsd.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: The real issue...
References: <199612042101.OAA17202@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199612051024.CAA28970@freefall.freebsd.org>
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On Dec 5, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed) wrote:
> In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
> >
> > BTW: do you have a system so you can run them and show what they output
> > on Linux vs. FreeBSD on the same hardware? A differential in output
> > would show that it might be worth scraping up $25k to get peoples
> > grubby little hands on them. 8-).
>
> Hmmm, where should I get a good version of lmbench from ? I've got
> FreeBSD-2.1.5/NetBSD-1.1/Linux 2.0 & 2.1/Solaris2.5 all on the same
> pc...or any other interesting benchmarks to run ?
Try /usr/ports/benchmarks/lmbench under FreeBSD.
It will build version 1.0 of lmbench, which seems
to be the version refered to most often.
I can send you a lmbench-1.1 port, which has been
waiting to be commited to the -current tree for a
few months, now ...
Another good test might be Bonnie (also found as a
port in the same directory on FreeBSD).
There is also a Byte Bench port, but it does not
give useful results in most tests. The problem is,
that there are many tests that depend on config
options, and for example on whether static or
dynamic linking is used for some system commands.
[The Linux Byte Benchmark site (at www.silkroad.com)
offers pre-compiled Linux binaries, which give up
to twice as good results as building from sources
with no hand-tweaking on a current Linux-ELF system!
(They put statically linked versions of some commands
into the benchmark, which will be used instead of the
system commands in some tests. This is highly bogus,
it does not test system performance as is claimed,
but performance of those benchmark components. That
makes it even less useful than typical micro-benchmarks,
which typically let you know what meaningless metric
you measured :) ]
If you have any trouble locating the FreeBSD-ports,
just try www.freebsd.org or its Australien mirror
www.au.freebsd.org (does it exist ?). It offers to
download ports and packages. You want the port, and
will be able to build Linux versions from the sources
typically, since they have not been modified for FreeBSD.
Regards, STefan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 06:11:59 1996
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Message-Id: <Mutt.19961205143247.se@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:32:47 +0100
From: se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser)
To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: ccd considerations
References: <199612050844.JAA17324@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
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In-Reply-To: <199612050844.JAA17324@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>; from Christoph Kukulies on Dec 5, 1996 09:44:42 +0100
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On Dec 5, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies) wrote:
>
> I'm planning to equip my mirror machine (ftp.de.freebsd.org)
> with two 3.2 GB Quantum Fireball Tempest drives (any objections?)
> and now the question:
Hmmm, the Fireball TM are real low end SCSI drives ...
They are rotating at 4500 RPM only, and while they are
able to deliver some 5MB/s continuosly, you don't want
to use them as a "random access" device :)
> When configuring a ccd disk would there be any benefit if I
> use two controllers (ncr/pci) instead of one?
In case of low end drives (with typically less than 100KB
of drive cache) I'd use seperate controllers. If one of
the drives is transmitting a large block of data, the other
one will possibly fill up its buffer and stop reading ahead.
You will end up reading 64KB and then waiting for one disk
revolution to complete (which takes some 13.3 milliseconds
in case of a 4500 RPM drive), putting a limit of some 3MB/s
(64KB/(7ms+13ms)) per drive on this configuration. (The 7ms
are my estimate for the time to transfer 64KB of data at a
10MHz sync. data rate, or 9.5MB/s + 0.5ms command overhead).
This calculation is just a rough estimate, but I'd rather
avoid the Fireball TM as a "software RAID" drive. I would
not trust it to be as a reliable as a "normal" SCSI drive,
and I'd rather use a 4GB Quantum Atlas (and buy another
one if the first one really gets filled :) instead of the
two low end drives.
I surely would opt for a solution that does not require
two controllers. How about a Tekram DC390F with three
Ultra-WIDE IBM DORS-32160. Those are not exactly high end
drives, too, but they are 5400RPM and offer 512KB cache.
The 40MB/s Ultra-WIDE transfer rate (soon to be supported
by the NCR driver, I received patches from Gerard Roudier
who ported it to Linux :) allows for all three drives to
operate at full throughput.
(The Quantum Fireball TM (3254MB) seems to have an 8bit
Ultra-SCSI interface, so you may be able to connect two
to one Tekram DC390U. This would cost an estimated 179DM
for the controller and 695DM per disk drive. The IBM DORS
is 499DM (FAST), 529DM (Ultra) or 535DM (Ultra-WIDE), and
you'll need a NCR8100S (or ASUS SC200) for 135DM, or a
Tekram DC390U (189DM) or DC390F (259DM) respectively.
(The DC390F has the advantage to come with both an 8bit
and 16bit internal SCSI cable. The latter must be bought
seperately for some other SCSI cards, and adds some $50.
If you don't mind to use a flat-ribbon cable to connect
external devices, then you can use it for them, too ...)
Total cost are some 1600DM with two Quantums and an Ultra
SCSI card, 1650DM with two 53c810 NCR cards, and 1630DM,
1780DM and 1860DM for three IBM DORS 2GB and FAST, Ultra
or Ultra-WIDE NCR SCSI card. (Prices from ads in c't 12/96:
CP (pp.430), HW (p.450) and Sunshine (p.438, current price
of the DC390F is 259DM, not 279DM as printed)). Best if you
get a price quote for the drives from Alternate (pp. 422)
too. I have had nothing but good experiences with them, and
if they tell you some device was on stock, then expect it
to arrive the other day ;)
[Note to readers in far away contries ;)
All prices incl. VAT. Multiply by 0.57 to convert into US$
without VAT if you can't make sense of the numbers, else ...]
(I'd choose the 3*IBM DORS-U + Tekram DC390U variant, since
Ultra-WIDE is soon to be replaceed by Ultra2 + LVD, IMHO.
Its just an intermediate step, but Ultra2 will be as fast
with a bus of half the width, and LVD will allow for up to
12m (40ft) of SCSI cable length, if all devices on the bus
support this new electrical interface. They will fall back
to standard single-ended, else, for full compatibility with
current drives/controllers.)
Well, that is what I would do. But as always: YMMV ...
Gruss, STefan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 07:13:38 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612051512.KAA04988@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: The real issue...
To: se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:12:46 -0500 (EST)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com,
thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, hackers@freebsd.org, torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19961205145036.se@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> from "Stefan Esser" at Dec 5, 96 02:50:36 pm
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>
> [The Linux Byte Benchmark site (at www.silkroad.com)
> offers pre-compiled Linux binaries, which give up
> to twice as good results as building from sources
> with no hand-tweaking on a current Linux-ELF system!
> (They put statically linked versions of some commands
> into the benchmark, which will be used instead of the
> system commands in some tests. This is highly bogus,
> it does not test system performance as is claimed,
> but performance of those benchmark components. That
> makes it even less useful than typical micro-benchmarks,
> which typically let you know what meaningless metric
> you measured :) ]
>
If one statically links processes that are forking or
being execed, it would be best to specify it up front.
The value in testing various programs for fork/exec
time both dynamically linked and statically linked
is that it gives you some hints as to the performance
tradeoffs for each kind of binary. For example, almost
NEVER dynamically link a command shell. Not only does
it fool you by implying the program is smaller (it is
smaller only on disk, most likely in memory it is
larger, and sharing is NOT improved in non-degenerate
cases), but fork/exec times are significantly higher.
And of course, who wants an artificially slowed down
command shell that fork/execs a couple of times more
slowly than needed?
IMO:
It is legitimate to test in both the statically and
dynamically linked cases, but the tester should
disclose that information.
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 08:35:36 1996
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From: Darren Davis <DARREND@novell.com>
To: jehamby@lightside.com, joe@via.net
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Subject: truss, trace ?? -Reply
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Check the man page on ktrace.
Darren
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 10:13:34 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:13:32 -0800 (PST)
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Message-Id: <199612051813.KAA21859@time.cdrom.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: gethostname() - returns long or int?
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>From our source code:
long
gethostname(name, namelen)
char *name;
int namelen;
>From our header file (unistd.h):
/usr/include/unistd.h:int gethostname __P((char *, int));
Which is correct?
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 10:15:49 1996
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Reply-To: <SimsS@IBM.Net>
From: "Steve Sims" <SimsS@IBM.Net>
To: "Andrzej Bialecki" <abial@korin.warman.org.pl>,
<freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: if_de.c && autosense disabling
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:14:07 -0500
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Gee, I dunno - mine works great!
>From /etc/sysconfig:
[...]
network_interfaces="lo0 de0"
ifconfig_lo0="inet localhost"
ifconfig_de0="inet 1.2.3.4 -link2 netmask 0xfffffff8"
[...]
The '-link2' flag keeps everything in line for me.
...sjs...
----------
> From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@korin.warman.org.pl>
> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
> Subject: if_de.c && autosense disabling
> Date: Thursday, December 05, 1996 4:36 AM
>
> Hi!
>
> I recently installed an SMC EtherPower card in my machine (2.2-ALPHA,
> P5 133MHz, 64MB RAM, AHA2940U & Fujitsu 2.4G, MB Soyo Triton HX).
>
> I noticed certain behavior of the if_de driver, which is rather annoying.
> I use 10baseT cable, and during bootup it gets recognized ("autosensed")
> properly. When I physically disconnected the cable from the card (I had to
> plug it into another wall socket, on the same hub), the driver began
> switching to other types of media (AUI, then BNC).
> Unfortunately, when I reconnected the UTP cable, nothing happened, i.e.
> the driver was still stuck to the BNC port. And I still didn't see the
> net, of course.
>
> So, perhaps it would be good to add some flag (via ifconfig??? via -c
> during bootup???) or a compile option to if_de.c to tell the driver that I
> don't need any autosensing nor switching to other media - I just want my
> plain vanilla UTP (AUI/BNC/other :-), that's all.
>
> I saw such an option in Linux driver, and recompiling the driver with this
> option worked just fine.
>
> Is this a good idea, or a bad one? Or, maybe I'm missing something.
>
> BTW, as a side effect to this, switching to other media flushed my routing
> table so it was totally empty! so after I reconnected UTP cable, I had to
> make ifconfig down/up to reset the driver to initial state, and still
> nothing worked. So then I had to make 'route add default....' and so on.
> Otherwise I could only reboot to make it work. It seems the whole process
> is too big a penalty for pulling out the cable for just a moment.
>
> Andy,
>
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> Andrzej Bialecki <abial@warman.org.pl> _) _) _)_) _)_)_) _) _)
> --------------------------------------- _)_) _) _) _) _)_) _)_)
> Research and Academic Network in Poland _) _)_) _)_)_)_) _) _) _)
> Bartycka 18, 00-716 Warsaw, Poland _) _) _) _) _)_)_) _) _)
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 10:35:28 1996
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: gethostname() - returns long or int?
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 10:28:03 -0800
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On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:13:32 -0800 (PST)
"Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com> wrote:
> /usr/include/unistd.h:int gethostname __P((char *, int));
>
> Which is correct?
This one.
Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 10:49:34 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:48:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design / lmbench results
In-Reply-To: <199612050218.MAA19340@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Michael Smith wrote:
> Mark Mayo stands accused of saying:
> > >
> > > Do you have '-pipe' in CFLAGS in /etc/make.conf? Enough memory? SCSI?
> > > A more reasonable load average for 'make world' is 1.2 or so, and normally
> > > less than 10% idle in my experience.
> >
> > Always wanted to know what -pipe did; neato! No I didn't have it in
> > there.. I don't really want to use the suggested -O2 -m486 however, so I
> > think I'll add -pipe. I don't have the time to do another make world to
> > compare however.. I've got 32 MB or RAM - is this considered enough?
>
> If you're not doing anything else on the machine, then 32M is fine.
> Run 'systat -vmstat' while you're running the build and keep an eye
> on whether you're paging.
>
> > Any idea how much faster -pipe generally speeds up the compilation? I'm
> > assuming I might need more RAM for the PIPES to talk though.. I'll be up
> > to 48MB soon, then I'll be happy :-)
>
> I wouldn't want to make a guess, but with your hardware I'd expect it to
> make a moderately significant improvement. (10-20%?)
Well, I compared a kernel build with and without -pipe. It took 4 minutes,
35 seconds without, and dropped to 3 minutes, 27 seconds with the -pipe
CFLAG!! Wow! That's a significant improvement. Now I can't wait to do a
make world with -pipe! I did notice, however, that adding
CFLAGS= -pipe to /etc/make.conf didn't automagically add a -pipe flag to
the kernel build procedure (I had to add the -pipe manually to the kernel
Makefile)
Also, I ran lmbench out of curiosity! Wow, does FreeBSD rock on Pipe
bandwidth!! I get 147.20 MB/s pipe bandwidth. Also, the context switches
were blazing (166667 - whatever that number is, or 6 usecs) on 2 and 8
"small processes". Pipe transactions were at 33 usec. The fork/exec
times were also very impressive, at 1203 usec (831/s). Basically,
everything involving TCP/UDP/socket/Pipe had amazing results - the highest
of the EXAMPLE group by factors. I'll have to do searching and see what
newer machines are doing. The results are quite impressive, and fun to
look at :-) My machines seems to have very high memory read times
(according to lmbench anyways) with the memory sum and read bandwidth
hovering around 160 MB/s and mmap reads at around 108 MB/s. The writes
weere quite slow (~50MB/s) and bcopy results slow as well.
It was the first time I've ever ran lmbench, and it was quite fun. Maybe
I'll go and get 1.1 and tweak it to pieces and see what numbers I can
squeeze out to poke fun at my Linux friends ;-)
cya,
-mark
>
> > -Mark
>
> --
> ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
> ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
> ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
> ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
> ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
>
---------------------------------------------------
| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com |
| RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark |
---------------------------------------------------
"To iterate is human, to recurse divine."
- L. Peter Deutsch
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 10:49:50 1996
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Message-ID: <Mutt.19961205194721.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:47:21 +0100
From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
References: <199612050220.SAA09742@monk.via.net> <199612051010.CAA28246@freefall.freebsd.org>
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In-Reply-To: <199612051010.CAA28246@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Darren Reed on Dec 5, 1996 21:09:47 +1100
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According to Darren Reed:
> Be nice if there was an option for it to output (immeadiately) to stdout
> rather than ktrace.out.
I looked at strace (which runs on SunOS and Linux I think) to see if it
could be ported to FreeBSD but I don't have enough knowledge of the
internals of the kernel to do it...
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #31: Tue Dec 3 23:52:58 CET 1996
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 10:59:44 1996
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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 14:01:24 -0500
From: "Matthew A. Gessner" <mgessner@aristar.com>
Organization: Aristar, Inc.
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To: hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>, mobile@freebsd.org
Subject: IBM Thinkpad 360CSE
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God, how I hate this machine.
Someone here had the idea to put FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE on our little
360CSE. Not knowing it would be a challenge, I said, "Sure".
Well, when I boot the machine, and go into config, I don't have any
problems. But as soon as the sc0 driver starts, all is lost. The keys
all act really funny, and there's nothing I can do with the machine
except turn it off!
Can someone help, please?
TIA
--
Matthew Gessner, Computer Scientist, <mgessner@aristar.com>
Aristar, Inc.
302 N. Cleveland-Massillon Rd.
Akron, OH 44333
Voice (330) 668-2267, Fax (330) 668-2961
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 11:44:27 1996
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Message-Id: <199612051943.MAA17661@rocky.mt.sri.com>
From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: "Matthew A. Gessner" <mgessner@aristar.com>
Cc: hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>, mobile@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: IBM Thinkpad 360CSE
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> God, how I hate this machine.
Hey, once you get it working I think you'll be happy.
[ 2.1.5 ]
> Well, when I boot the machine, and go into config, I don't have any
> problems. But as soon as the sc0 driver starts, all is lost. The keys
> all act really funny, and there's nothing I can do with the machine
> except turn it off!
>
> Can someone help, please?
yeah, try and install 2.1.6.1 instead. Change the flags to sc0 to 0x10
in userconfig and it should work fine on your box.
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 12:39:42 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612052019.NAA19820@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:19:35 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de, julian@whistle.com,
nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <9612050824.AA20317@wavehh.hanse.de> from "Martin Cracauer" at Dec 5, 96 09:24:25 am
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[ ... DEC's design ... ]
> > The thread library maintains a constant pool of (up to) <n> KECs, where
> > <n> is normally set by the number of physical processors in the system.
> > (It may be smaller, if your process is locked into a processor set.)
> > These are the "virtual processors" (VPs). The thread library schedules
> > user threads on the pool of VPs, trying to keep all <n> of them busy. If
> > you don't have enough user threads to keep that many VPs busy, they may
> > not all get started, or VPs already running may go into the "null
> > thread" loop and idle -- which returns the KEC to the kernel's pool for
> > reuse. We'll get it back if we need it later.
> >
> > When a thread blocks in the kernel, the KEC stays in the kernel, but it
> > gives us an upcall in a *new* (or recycled) KEC to replace the VP. When
> > the blocking operation finishes, the kernel gives us a completion upcall
> > in the original KEC. It's no longer a VP, so we just save the context
> > and dismiss it.
This is *EXACTLY* the *right way* to implement threading, if the intent
of threads is to maximize concurrency (I happen to believe that that
is the *only* good reason for a treading abstraction at all, and that
there are a number of better ways to maximize concurrency on SVR4
and Solaris systems because of their limited implementations).
> > The key is the distinction between "KEC" and "VP". There may be 100 KECs
> > attached to a process, but, on a typical quad-CPU system, only (up to) 4
> > of them at any time are "VPs". The rest are just holding kernel context
> > across some blocking operation.
One critical aspect which appears to have been missed here is that the
difference between a "process" and a "KEC" (I assume this stands for
"Kernel Execution Context") can be completely artificial.
Specifically, you could implement a process as a KEC with a user space
address space mapping. If you "lazy switched" context (fundamentally,
the same idea as "late binding" into multiple name spaces), then you
can implement the kernel and user space mappings seperately.
What this means is that a KEC consists of a kernel address space
mapping, a stack, and an instruction pointer, and very little else,
while a process is a KEC with a user space address mapping associated
with it.
This means that if you move all your copyin/out to uiomove, and your
KEC for kernel tasks points to the KEC that originated the context,
then you have no reason to change the user space mapping simply
because you changed kernel execution context to a context not for
the process whose user space context is active.
This does mean some minor changes to device drivers to prevent any
promiscuous access of user space memory by the device driver (so I
can't make a device request that trashes your address space because
the KEC that completes it has your processes address space mapping
available to it). Basically, formalization of the interface for
crossing protection domains to distinguish the kernel and user
virtual address space.
I'm *very* glad someone has implemented this as something other than
just a "proof of concept" model... it validates many of the threads
arguments I've made over the past several years (I had something
similar running as a lab curiousity in UnixWare 2.x in 1994).
We should christen this "the DEC model"... and we should use "the
DEC model" for our own threads implementation.
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 13:15:43 1996
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Message-ID: <Mutt.19961205210626.roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:06:26 +0100
From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design / lmbench results
References: <199612050218.MAA19340@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <Pine.BSF.3.94.961205133119.7282A-100000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
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According to Mark Mayo:
> make world with -pipe! I did notice, however, that adding
> CFLAGS= -pipe to /etc/make.conf didn't automagically add a -pipe flag to
> the kernel build procedure (I had to add the -pipe manually to the kernel
> Makefile)
Use
COPTFLAGS= -O -pipe
for the kernel compile. See compile/WHATEVER/Makefile:
CFLAGS= ${COPTFLAGS} ${CWARNFLAGS} ${DEBUG} ${COPTS}
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #31: Tue Dec 3 23:52:58 CET 1996
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 13:44:02 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:43:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: ccd considerations
In-Reply-To: <199612050844.JAA17324@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
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I would think that you would have to have some pretty high load to require
2 controllers.
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Christoph Kukulies wrote:
> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:44:42 +0100 (MET)
> From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
> Subject: ccd considerations
>
>
> I'm planning to equip my mirror machine (ftp.de.freebsd.org)
> with two 3.2 GB Quantum Fireball Tempest drives (any objections?)
> and now the question:
>
> When configuring a ccd disk would there be any benefit if I
> use two controllers (ncr/pci) instead of one?
>
>
> --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 14:15:19 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:14:58 +0100
From: se@FreeBSD.ORG (Stefan Esser)
To: mark@quickweb.com (Mark Mayo)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design / lmbench results
References: <199612050218.MAA19340@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <Pine.BSF.3.94.961205133119.7282A-100000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
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On Dec 5, mark@quickweb.com (Mark Mayo) wrote:
> Also, I ran lmbench out of curiosity! Wow, does FreeBSD rock on Pipe
> bandwidth!! I get 147.20 MB/s pipe bandwidth. Also, the context switches
> were blazing (166667 - whatever that number is, or 6 usecs) on 2 and 8
> "small processes". Pipe transactions were at 33 usec. The fork/exec
> times were also very impressive, at 1203 usec (831/s). Basically,
> everything involving TCP/UDP/socket/Pipe had amazing results - the highest
> of the EXAMPLE group by factors. I'll have to do searching and see what
> newer machines are doing. The results are quite impressive, and fun to
> look at :-) My machines seems to have very high memory read times
> (according to lmbench anyways) with the memory sum and read bandwidth
> hovering around 160 MB/s and mmap reads at around 108 MB/s. The writes
> weere quite slow (~50MB/s) and bcopy results slow as well.
Bcopy does depend on tghe size of available RAM. Your system
will page heavily, if not all of the test arrays can be held
at a time. Remember, lmbench was originally written to test
workstation class performance, with 32MB being the LOW end.
> It was the first time I've ever ran lmbench, and it was quite fun. Maybe
> I'll go and get 1.1 and tweak it to pieces and see what numbers I can
> squeeze out to poke fun at my Linux friends ;-)
Please apply the following patch to the lmbench port directory
(/usr/ports/benchmarks/lmbench). This is what I prepared to
update lmbench to 1.1, but I never got around to complete it.
There are LOTS of new example results, and I bet somebody will
be faster, now :)
Regards, STefan
Index: Makefile
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/cvs/ports/benchmarks/lmbench/Makefile,v
retrieving revision 1.6
diff -C2 -r1.6 Makefile
*** Makefile 1996/11/18 11:21:57 1.6
--- Makefile 1996/11/22 21:35:20
***************
*** 7,11 ****
#
! DISTNAME= lmbench-1.0
CATEGORIES= benchmarks
MASTER_SITES= ftp://forte.mathematik.uni-bremen.de/pub/unix/benchmarks/
--- 7,11 ----
#
! DISTNAME= lmbench-1.1
CATEGORIES= benchmarks
MASTER_SITES= ftp://forte.mathematik.uni-bremen.de/pub/unix/benchmarks/
Index: files/md5
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/cvs/ports/benchmarks/lmbench/files/md5,v
retrieving revision 1.1.1.1
diff -C2 -r1.1.1.1 md5
*** md5 1995/05/06 11:49:56 1.1.1.1
--- md5 1996/09/24 18:18:52
***************
*** 1 ****
! MD5 (lmbench-1.0.tar.gz) = 22651dd664376a13279f02af4eaacf84
--- 1 ----
! MD5 (lmbench-1.1.tar.gz) = 8dad46afd0c7fbaf8967d22b9d157da8
Index: patches/patch-aa
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/cvs/ports/benchmarks/lmbench/patches/patch-aa,v
retrieving revision 1.1.1.1
diff -C2 -r1.1.1.1 patch-aa
*** patch-aa 1995/05/06 11:49:56 1.1.1.1
--- patch-aa 1996/09/24 18:37:24
***************
*** 1,11 ****
! --- ./src/Makefile.org Fri Nov 25 08:53:00 1994
! +++ ./src/Makefile Sat May 6 03:38:01 1995
! @@ -91,7 +91,7 @@
! $(MAKE) O=$O CC=cc CFLAGS="$(CFLAGS) -Dvfork=fork" all
!
! bsd:
! - $(MAKE) O=$O CC=$(CC) CFLAGS="$CFLAGS -Duint='unsigned int'" all
! + $(MAKE) O=$O CC=$(CC) CFLAGS="$(CFLAGS)" all
!
! Wall:
! @$(MAKE) clean
--- 1,28 ----
! *** src/Makefile.orig Tue Sep 24 20:28:43 1996
! --- src/Makefile Tue Sep 24 20:31:16 1996
! ***************
! *** 94,98 ****
!
! bsd:
! ! $(MAKE) O=$O CC=$(CC) CFLAGS="$(CFLAGS) -Duint='unsigned int'" all
!
! Wall:
! --- 94,98 ----
!
! bsd:
! ! $(MAKE) O=$O CC=$(CC) CFLAGS="$(CFLAGS)" all
!
! Wall:
! ***************
! *** 132,136 ****
! $O/lat_pagefault: lat_pagefault.c timing.c bench.h
! if [ $O = ../bin/linux -o $O = ../bin/bsd ]; \
! ! then cp /bin/true $O/lat_pagefault; \
! else $(COMPILE) -o $O/lat_pagefault lat_pagefault.c $(LDLIBS); \
! fi
! --- 132,136 ----
! $O/lat_pagefault: lat_pagefault.c timing.c bench.h
! if [ $O = ../bin/linux -o $O = ../bin/bsd ]; \
! ! then cp /usr/bin/true $O/lat_pagefault; \
! else $(COMPILE) -o $O/lat_pagefault lat_pagefault.c $(LDLIBS); \
! fi
Index: patches/patch-ab
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/cvs/ports/benchmarks/lmbench/patches/patch-ab,v
retrieving revision 1.1
diff -C2 -r1.1 patch-ab
*** patch-ab 1996/02/01 07:55:41 1.1
--- patch-ab 1996/09/24 18:38:16
***************
*** 1,14 ****
- --- ./src/bw_tcp.c.org Fri Nov 25 08:53:00 1994
- +++ ./src/bw_tcp.c Wed Jan 31 23:25:22 1996
- @@ -128,9 +128,11 @@
- char buf[SOCKBUF];
- int sockbuf = SOCKBUF;
-
- +#ifndef __FreeBSD__
- while (setsockopt(data, SOL_SOCKET, SO_RCVBUF, &sockbuf, sizeof(int))) {
- sockbuf -= 128;
- }
- +#endif
- #endif
- bzero(buf, SOCKBUF);
- if (read(control, buf, SOCKBUF) <= 0) {
--- 0 ----
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 14:22:10 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:21:13 +0100
From: se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser)
To: mrcpu@cdsnet.net (Jaye Mathisen)
Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies),
freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: ccd considerations
References: <199612050844.JAA17324@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> <Pine.NEB.3.95.961205134213.1925J-100000@mail.cdsnet.net>
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On Dec 5, mrcpu@cdsnet.net (Jaye Mathisen) wrote:
>
> I would think that you would have to have some pretty high load to require
> 2 controllers.
Not if the drives used have only very small caches.
Then you may have one drive's buffer overflow before
the other one disconnects for the first time ...
(The low end SCSI drives now come with only 128KB of
static RAM, some 30% of which are used by the drive's
firmware and are not available for data caching and
read ahead. I just don't understand why Quantum
bothered to support Tagged Command Queues on such a
drive (the Fireball TM), with some 90KB of RAM to
hold data recently read, to be written and possibly
read-ahead ...
Regards, STefan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 14:25:26 1996
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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 17:18:58 -0500 (EST)
Organization: Cybernet Systems Corporation
From: Mark Taylor <mtaylor@cybernet.com>
To: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@glacier.cold.org>
Subject: RE: Help! Turning off DTR on a serial device
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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On 18:25:06 Brandon Gillespie wrote:
>I'm writing some software to use the serial device in FreeBSD (and
>Unixware in the long run). I need to know if I can turn off DTR. The
>supplied software with this program is for DOS, and manages to turn off
>DTR from the software end--but I have never been able to figure out if I
>can do this from a unix perspective? Can I? help?
>
>-Brandon Gillespie
There is an IOCTL for it.
Look in /usr/include/sys/ttycom.h for TIOCSDTR (set DTR) and TIOCCDTR (clear DTR).
The only problem youu will find with it is that the DTR is set when you change your
baud rate. There is an 'if' statement in the baud changing code in the kernel's sio
driver which checks if the baud is non-zero, then the DTR will be set.
So, you can set your baud rate, turn off your DTR, but don't chang your baud rate
again! It will turn ON the DTR (if the new baud rate is not zero).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark J. Taylor Network R&D Engineer
Cybernet Systems mtaylor@cybernet.com
727 Airport Blvd. PHONE (313) 668-2567
Ann Arbor, MI 48108 FAX (313) 668-8780
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 15:05:07 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:04:48 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design
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On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Mark Mayo wrote:
> It takes about 3 hours and 15 minutes to do a complete make world
> (including contrib, with gcc, etc..) right now. I'm looking forward to
> getting a new disk, and splitting up the /usr/src and /usr/obj to see if
I would make your old disk /usr/src and the new faster one /usr/obj +
system disk to improve worldStone on your personal workstation.
Regards,
Mike Hancock
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 15:32:33 1996
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References: <199612021436.JAA23817@fang.cs.sunyit.edu>
<199612021622.RAA02459@ravenock.cybercity.dk>
From: shanee@rabbit.augusta.de (Andreas Kohout)
Subject: Re: Qcam utils
X-Original-Newsgroups: muc.lists.freebsd.hackers
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In article <199612021622.RAA02459@ravenock.cybercity.dk>,
sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk (Soren Schmidt) writes:
> Not really, I have only used the xqcam util, and played a little
> with xfqcam. But I'd like to hear more, anybody ??
xfqcam 1.04 works fine with libxforms0.75, but not with 0.81 ...
--
Greeting, Andy
running FreeBSD-current
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 15:54:02 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:53:00 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: Bakul Shah <bakul@plexuscom.com>, julian@whistle.com,
cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de, nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
In-Reply-To: <199612050216.TAA18540@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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I wonder how DEC handles priority inversion. Do they use priority
lending?
Computing Transitive Closure takes too much time doesn't it? How many
nodes are there in a typical system? Is there an algorithm that scales
well?
Regards,
Mike Hancock
On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > The above idea can be extended to multi processors fairly easily.
> > Though multi-processor schedulers that can also do realtime
> > scheduling (and appropriately deal with priority inversion) are not
> > easy.
>
> Heh. "locking nodes in a directed acylic graph representing a lock
> heirarchy" will address the priority inversion handily -- assuming
> you compute transitive closure over the entire graph, instead of the
> subelements for a single processors or kernel subsystem. This
> requires that you be clere with per processor memory regions for
> global objects which are scoped in per processor pools. For instance,
> say I have N processors.
>
> global lock
> /
> /
> VM lock
> / | \
> / | \
> XXX global page pool ...
> / | \
> / | \
> CPU 1 CPU 2 ... CPU N page pool locks
>
>
> init_page_locks( 2)
> {
> lock global lock IX (intention exclusive)
> lock VM lock IX
> lock global page pool IX
> lock CPU 2 page pool lock IX
> /* promise no one but CPU2, single threaded, will touch
> * CPU 2 page pool...
> */
> lock CPU 2 page pool lock X (exclusive)
> }
>
> alloc_page( 2) /* someone on CPU 2 wants a page...*/
> {
> is page pool at low water mark? {
> /* Prevent other CPU's from doing same...*/
> lock X global page pool
> get pages from global page pool into CPU 2 page pool
> /* OK for other CPU's to do same...*/
> unlock X global page pool
> }
> return = get page from CPU 2 page pool
> }
>
> free_page( 2) /* someone on CPU is throwing a page away*/
> put page in CPU 2 page pool
> is page pool at high water mark? {
> /* Prevent other CPU's from doing same...*/
> lock X global page pool
> put pages from CPU 2 page pool into global page pool
> /* OK for other CPU's to do same...*/
> unlock X global page pool
> }
> }
>
> No need to hold a global lock or hit the bus for inter-CPU state unless
> we hit the high or low water mark...
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 16:16:56 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:16:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Another easy way to crash your FreeBSD box.
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Remove all references to NFS from your kernel.
Build and boot new kernel.
mount xxx:/usr/src /usr/src
succeeds, interestingly enough, then try and access the mounted dir.
Wave goodbye.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 16:25:15 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612060003.RAA21037@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:03:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, bakul@plexuscom.com, julian@whistle.com,
cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de, nawaz921@cs.uidaho.EDU,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.95.961206084725.29547A-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp> from "Michael Hancock" at Dec 6, 96 08:53:00 am
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> I wonder how DEC handles priority inversion. Do they use priority
> lending?
>
> Computing Transitive Closure takes too much time doesn't it? How many
> nodes are there in a typical system? Is there an algorithm that scales
> well?
Well, Warshall's method (S. Warshall, 1962) has O(V(E+V) for a sparse
graph, and O(V^3) for a dense graph. V is the number of vertices.
Floyd's algortihm is similar.
You *could* actually keep the adjacency matrix for the graphs transitive
closure up to date each time you modify the adjacency matrix for the
the graph. This actually yields *very* good results, since once
established, the lock hierarchy is not likely to change. This ends
up leaving you with a series of unit vectors for the adjacency to the
node you want to modify from the root. You could easily compute
the closure to a depth N in O(N+1). For a blanaced graph (the lock
hierarchies I've described aren't balanced, so this doesn't apply),
N is log2(n)+1 for n total nodes.
This is hinted at in chapter 32, "directed graphs" in:
Algorithms in C++
Robert Sedgewick
Addison-Wesley publishing
ISBN 0-201-51059-6
The book is a little light in the loafers regarding actual C++ code
to implement the algorithms, but is a good reference.
O(log n/loglog n)... pretty darn good!
http://www.brics.dk/~thore/Papers/lowerbounds.html
There are also some nice algorithms located at:
http://www.cs.hut.fi/~psu/VK94/node28.html
Since a locking graph is a digraph:
http://www.cs.hut.fi/~enu/thesis.html
These should still show up in a Yahoo search, actually...
And, of course, there's Knuth...
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 16:36:09 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612060035.LAA24169@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Another easy way to crash your FreeBSD box.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.95.961205161548.1925W-100000@mail.cdsnet.net> from Jaye Mathisen at "Dec 5, 96 04:16:51 pm"
To: mrcpu@cdsnet.net (Jaye Mathisen)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:05:48 +1030 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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Jaye Mathisen stands accused of saying:
>
> Remove all references to NFS from your kernel.
>
> Build and boot new kernel.
>
> mount xxx:/usr/src /usr/src
>
> succeeds, interestingly enough, then try and access the mounted dir.
>
> Wave goodbye.
Rebuild your NFS lkm?
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 16:38:26 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:38:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Another easy way to crash your FreeBSD box.
In-Reply-To: <199612060035.LAA24169@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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No, I didn't want NFS on this box at all, which is why I was amused to see
the mount not fail. If the mount would've failed, I would've remembered,
"Hey, this is the box without NFS"...
Regardless, a crash is ridiculous.
On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Michael Smith wrote:
> Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:05:48 +1030 (CST)
> From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
> To: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
> Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Another easy way to crash your FreeBSD box.
>
> Jaye Mathisen stands accused of saying:
> >
> > Remove all references to NFS from your kernel.
> >
> > Build and boot new kernel.
> >
> > mount xxx:/usr/src /usr/src
> >
> > succeeds, interestingly enough, then try and access the mounted dir.
> >
> > Wave goodbye.
>
> Rebuild your NFS lkm?
>
> --
> ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
> ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
> ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
> ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
> ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
>
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Xref: ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au comp.arch:25338 comp.protocols.tcp-ip:24814
Path: ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!transfer.stratus.com!jkay
From: jkay@news.stratus.com (Jon Kay)
Newsgroups: comp.arch,comp.protocols.tcp-ip
Subject: Re: hardware bcopy together with internet protocols
Followup-To: comp.arch,comp.protocols.tcp-ip
Date: 5 Dec 1996 18:09:05 GMT
Organization: Isis Distributed Systems, Ithaca, NY
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <587341$e67@transfer.stratus.com>
References: <32a8bd7b.318924049@philos.philosys.de> <slrn5a0crk.4ff.trockij@rudie.pt.cyanamid.com>
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trockij@rudie.pt.cyanamid.com (Jim Trocki) notes -
> Have a look at the proceedings from the 1996 USENIX technical
> conference. There was a presentation by several on zero-copy TCP in the
> Solaris kernel. ...
My Ph.D thesis includes details on how to create a zero-copy,
zero-checksum TCP/IP stack. See
http://www-csl.ucsd.edu/CSL/pubs/phd/jkay.thesis.ps
Jon
--
Web Page: http://www-csl.ucsd.edu/CSL/users/jkay/
Email: jkay@isis.com
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 16:49:07 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612060048.LAA24287@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Another easy way to crash your FreeBSD box.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.95.961205163709.1925X-100000@mail.cdsnet.net> from Jaye Mathisen at "Dec 5, 96 04:38:11 pm"
To: mrcpu@cdsnet.net (Jaye Mathisen)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:18:51 +1030 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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Jaye Mathisen stands accused of saying:
>
> No, I didn't want NFS on this box at all, which is why I was amused to see
> the mount not fail. If the mount would've failed, I would've remembered,
> "Hey, this is the box without NFS"...
Then make sure you remove the NFS lkm.
> Regardless, a crash is ridiculous.
This is a feature of our LKM architecture. Submissions of improvements
are solicited 8)
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 19:25:29 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612060213.TAA21534@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:13:37 -0700 (MST)
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When you generate a y.tab.h file using yacc -p<NAME>... ie:
yacc -v -p<NAME>
In the file y.tab.h, you get:
...
extern YYSTYPE <NAME>lval;
In reality, you should get:
...
#define yylval <NAME>lval
extern YYSTYPE yylval;
This is because lex grammars frequently include y.tab.h:
%{
#include "y.tab.h"
#include <math.h>
#include <string.h>
...
%}
%%
...
and the value of yylval in the lexer is dependent on the value in the
yacc grammar -- which is dependent on the -p<NAME> parameter (in y.tab.c,
there is a:
#define yylval <NAME>lval
Frequently, if you are mixing grammars, you have a -P<NAME> on the lex
to go with the -p<NAME> on the yacc...
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 19:53:50 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:47:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Tao <taob@io.org>
To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: More than 256 pty's per machine?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961205214428.12174h-100000@nap.io.org>
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How difficult would this be? Based on what I see with our
internal P133 staff server (easily over 100 concurrent logins, also
running a Web server and IRC server, plus server X to a bunch of
Suns), a PPro200 server should be able to support three or four
hundred users, given enough RAM and swap.
--
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net)
Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp.
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 20:48:32 1996
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From: StevenR362@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:47:52 -0500
Message-ID: <961205234751_1286997857@emout01.mail.aol.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: ppp+alias -auto &spurious dialups.
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I compiled Charles Mott's aliasing ppp and it seems to be working just dandy.
A nice bit of code. Now I've decided to finally setup ppp for demand
dialing.
This also seems to be working fine with one minor exception. About every
fifteen minutes the system dials up my ISP. The system is otherwise
quiescent
with no one logged on and nothing going on my Winblows 95 box either.
I have named and routed disabled on my FreeBSD box. Now what do I have to
filter or disable to get it to stop dialing out four times an hour. From
recent
postings to hackers, I suspect sendmail is the culprit. Does anyone else
have
ppp -auto working?
Steve
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 20:48:32 1996
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From: StevenR362@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:47:53 -0500
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To: jkh@time.cdrom.com, michaelh@cet.co.jp
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: New benchmarks to design
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In a message dated 96-12-05 00:05:25 EST, jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K.
Hubbard) writes:
> 3. The source tree is fully cleaned before starting or you will also be
> adding in the time it takes to remove the old objects when the build
> starts.
This one doesn't seem to make a big difference. I ran two back to back
make worlds last week and it only made about a five minute difference to not
have a clean obj dir. 8:19 versus 8:24 on a 16 Mb AMD 586-133 with two
IDE drives of moderately fast speed.
Steve
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 21:03:37 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:59:18 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199612060459.PAA10852@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: brandon@glacier.cold.org, mtaylor@cybernet.com
Subject: RE: Help! Turning off DTR on a serial device
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>There is an IOCTL for it.
>Look in /usr/include/sys/ttycom.h for TIOCSDTR (set DTR) and TIOCCDTR (clear DTR).
There's also TIOCMSET, etc. which can be used to change the other modem
control bits. None of these work right for DTR, because:
>The only problem youu will find with it is that the DTR is set when you change your
>baud rate. There is an 'if' statement in the baud changing code in the kernel's sio
>driver which checks if the baud is non-zero, then the DTR will be set.
>
>So, you can set your baud rate, turn off your DTR, but don't chang your baud rate
>again! It will turn ON the DTR (if the new baud rate is not zero).
This is why DTR should be controlled using tcsettattr() instead of the old
ioctls. Set the output speed to B0 to turn DTR off. Keep it as B0 to keep
DTR off. Set it back to the actual speed to turn DTR on.
Bruce
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 21:16:54 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:15:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@glacier.cold.org>
To: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: Help! Turning off DTR on a serial device
In-Reply-To: <199612060459.PAA10852@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
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On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Bruce Evans wrote:
> This is why DTR should be controlled using tcsettattr() instead of the old
> ioctls. Set the output speed to B0 to turn DTR off. Keep it as B0 to keep
> DTR off. Set it back to the actual speed to turn DTR on.
So, uhh, what baud rate does it run at, when you set it to zero? Is the
baud rate irrelevant over the serial cable to the device?
-Brandon Gillespie
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 21:25:10 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612060524.PAA26375@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Help! Turning off DTR on a serial device
In-Reply-To: <199612060459.PAA10852@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Dec 6, 96 03:59:18 pm"
To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:54:07 +1030 (CST)
Cc: brandon@glacier.cold.org, mtaylor@cybernet.com, hackers@freebsd.org
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Bruce Evans stands accused of saying:
>
> This is why DTR should be controlled using tcsettattr() instead of the old
> ioctls. Set the output speed to B0 to turn DTR off. Keep it as B0 to keep
> DTR off. Set it back to the actual speed to turn DTR on.
You're not keeping enough state on the problem here folks. The original
poster is trying to talk to a VISA FEP which is a braindead piece of
crap. One of the contributing factors here is that it wants to be
talked to with DTR _NOT_ asserted.
Unless my understanding of comparam() is wrong, setting a speed of 0
will program a divisor of 0 as well, which is not helpful.
> Bruce
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 21:38:23 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:32:59 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199612060532.QAA12086@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: bde@zeta.org.au, brandon@glacier.cold.org
Subject: RE: Help! Turning off DTR on a serial device
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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>> ioctls. Set the output speed to B0 to turn DTR off. Keep it as B0 to keep
>> DTR off. Set it back to the actual speed to turn DTR on.
>
>So, uhh, what baud rate does it run at, when you set it to zero? Is the
>baud rate irrelevant over the serial cable to the device?
The same as before, or it wouldn't work. Setting the speed to 0 is
impossible and is conventionally used to turn DTR off.
Bruce
From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 5 22:49:29 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:47:33 -0800 (PST)
From: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
To: StevenR362@aol.com
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: ppp+alias -auto &spurious dialups.
In-Reply-To: <961205234751_1286997857@emout01.mail.aol.com>
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Yuparoo! It's sendmail!
it is turned on by default in /etc/sysconfig. go kill it! This bugged the
snot out of my wife for a year until i finally clued in. She'd pick up the
phone to call somebody and would be confronted with the happy modem song!
do we really need it to be on by default? Anybody likely to use it ( ie
ISP's ) would be smart enuf to turn it on and it is just a waste having it
run if it is not configured, right?
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 StevenR362@aol.com wrote:
>
> I compiled Charles Mott's aliasing ppp and it seems to be working just dandy.
> A nice bit of code. Now I've decided to finally setup ppp for demand
> dialing.
> This also seems to be working fine with one minor exception. About every
> fifteen minutes the system dials up my ISP. The system is otherwise
> quiescent
> with no one logged on and nothing going on my Winblows 95 box either.
> I have named and routed disabled on my FreeBSD box. Now what do I have to
> filter or disable to get it to stop dialing out four times an hour. From
> recent
> postings to hackers, I suspect sendmail is the culprit. Does anyone else
> have
> ppp -auto working?
>
> Steve
>
>
*******************************************************************************
John Utz spaz@u.washington.edu
idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 00:20:38 1996
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From: Julian Assange <proff@suburbia.net>
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>From smtpd Fri Dec 6 19:12:24 1996
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Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:03:11 +0100 (MET)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:03:11 +0100 (MET)
From: "Adam 'Ace' Rappner" <ace@swip.net>
Reply-To: "Adam 'Ace' Rappner" <ace@swip.net>
To: swips-pladder@swip.net, meditation@gnu.ai.mit.edu, rmch@sno.pp.se
Subject: Fiat Linux
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.961206085938.7798I-100000@noc.swip.net>
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>Linus designed the "Fiat Linux", and the Linux won European Car
>of the Year 1997.
>Introducing the new Fiat Linux - they take the mechanicals of an MPV
>(Renault Espace, Chrysler Odyssy etc.) and put in new engine
>management software so it goes 3 times as fast!
But it isn't running this week, because you installed AirFilter v4.5.3,
which requires WiperBlades 0.96b, but you have SysVWiper because
the latest GasTank version doesn't work with WiperBlades. So you
downgraded GasTank so that you could use WiperBlades, but now
FuelFilter 5.2 is complaining that it needs a GasTank upgrade.
Meanwhile, some kid down the block has figured out that if you push
really hard on RearAxle v8.0, you don't need the key to start the
engine.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 02:02:03 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:52:39 -0800 (PST)
From: John-Mark Gurney <jmg@nike.efn.org>
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Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
To: FreeBSD Hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: possible bug in comconsole code...
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well... I have set up a terminal server that has a few ports on it right
now... and it doesn't have a video card... so I'm using comconsole (not
intentionally)...
just so you know... I'm using 2.2-960801-SNAP for the termserver (using
devfs) because this is the version my machine machine is...
so I finally attached a machine to monitor the port... but I was only
getting part of the message... and I couldn't figure out why...
I tried some basic stuff like "echo blah > /dev/cuaa0" which just returned
a single "b"... then I thought that the port might be closing before the
data was sent... so a "(echo blah;sleep 1)> /dev/cuaa0" got the whole
thing sent out...
with this info... I decided to run a getty on the port... and now... the
console messages are sent out in their entirety... is there a possible
fix to either "simulate" like the port is open continuously... or
possibly just not have the port closed? also... is this a bug? or
just an wetware bug (meaning I need to run getty on the port)? just
wondering... thanks for all the help...-
John-Mark
gurney_j@efn.org
http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/
Modem/FAX: (541) 683-6954 (FreeBSD Box)
Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD (unix)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 02:41:54 1996
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop)
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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At 7:13 pm 5/12/96, Terry Lambert wrote:
>[...]
>Frequently, if you are mixing grammars, you have a -P<NAME> on the lex
>to go with the -p<NAME> on the yacc...
I agree it's broken. I suspect it's always been broken, but there are other
ways to skin that particular cat. Several times I've seen people stuffing
lex/yacc output thru sed to fix the prefixes; I don't like that much.
What I usually do is use a 'super-grammar' whose top-level rule just
switches between the real gramars based on a token which I arrange to stuff
up the pipe when the parser starts. Lex/yacc output seems to restartable:
this works OK.
--
Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118
rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 09:38:14 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:35:26 -0800
From: "M.R.Murphy" <mrm@Mole.ORG>
Message-Id: <199612061735.JAA27400@meerkat.mole.org>
To: rb@gid.co.uk, terry@lambert.org
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> I agree it's broken. I suspect it's always been broken, but there are other
> ways to skin that particular cat. Several times I've seen people stuffing
> lex/yacc output thru sed to fix the prefixes; I don't like that much.
>
I used ed on V6 to fix prefixes. It worked then, seems to work now... ;-)
--
Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874
Better is the enemy of Good
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 09:49:45 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:01:58 +0100 (MET)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199612061801.TAA24851@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: 2.2-ALPHA installation problem.
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I'm trying to install 2.2-ALPHA on an IDE drive (120MB, 60MB root, 60MB swap)
minimal installation. At 98% of the bin extract I'm getting
Write failure on transfer! (wrote -1 bytes of 1024 bytes)
What could be the cause? Bad hardware (it's a Maxtor 7120 IDE disk) ?
--Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 10:05:09 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:57:28 +0200 (IST)
From: Enoch Wexler <enoch@alpha.inter.net.il>
Reply-To: wexler@inter.net.il
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: API for handling the mouse, etc.
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Hi,
I am porting a text program from DOS.
The original is written in Borland C++ using their console I/O library
<conio.h> and int86(51,...) for the mouse.
1. "curses" beats "conio", but I have no clue how to enter color...
2. From mouse.h and psm.c that I found it is difficult to learn on the API.
Can you please tell me where the relevant docs or some
programming examples are.
Thanks, Enoch.
P/S Will this ported program run under X?
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 10:31:24 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:44:17 +0100 (MET)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199612061844.TAA25123@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: 2.2-ALPHA more probs
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I got around that write -1 failure. The target disk was full.
I had created a root fs of 45 MB (minimal installation is told to
require 44 MB). Later I increased that to 60 MB and it still wasn't enough.
At 80 MB finally I got it installed. (I chose NFS installation BTW).
Although I got at the end of the installation :
sysinstall: free() junk pointer too high
I could get it installed.
--Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 10:40:23 1996
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
cc: doc@freebsd.org
Subject: Following positions seeking volunteers!
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 10:40:20 -0800
Message-ID: <18334.849897620@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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As some of you may already know, our long suffering and now
far-too-overloaded Webmaster / Docmaster, John Fieber, has asked that
one or more people be found to fill his shoes in the Webmaster &
Docmaster roles so that he may focus on his doctoral studies.
In order to make recruitment a little easier, he has also provided the
following list of "positions", each of which could probably use a
dedicated person though I also don't see anything wrong with a truly
motivated individual taking on several hats at once.
It also goes without saying that any volunteer for these positions
should be truly willing to stick it out for the long haul (>= 1 year)
since it takes a fair while just to ramp up on this stuff, much less
become really good at it. If you're only interested in doing this for
for a week or a month then you should probably consider instead simply
volunteering to stand on the sidelines and help out the central
volunteer, whomever that might be, in a more peripheral role. This is
also a perfectly valuable contribution, and one which is especially
encouraged as some of these jobs are rather difficult for one person
to do alone. We more than welcome "soldiers" as well as "generals,"
though it must be said that generals are sort of what we're really
stuck for most at the moment.
All we can offer you in return is a good opportunity for learning and
a chance to do something truly important for FreeBSD. Documentation
and Webmastering can be a somewhat thankless job, and the better job
you do it seems the more people will take you for granted, but it's
nontheless absolutely *vital* that FreeBSD continue to grow and
improve in these areas, and your contributions are the only way that
will happen.
Anyone?
Thanks!
Jordan
Positions:
Webmaster:
Overall responsibility for making sure that the things listed below
get done.
Build Engineer
Arrange for building the "live" web pages from the CVS repository on
a daily basis. A good working knowledge of SGML is essential. The
current setup uses Makefiles and some moderately advanced SGML
features to generate the pages that get posted on server.
Mirror Manager
Direct mirroring activities. Set up and maintain mirroring
mechanism(s), keep in regular contact with mirror administrators to
negotiate changes, such as running various CGI scripts on mirrors
rather than on the master site. Set up criteria for being listed
as an "Official" mirror on the home page.
News Bureau
Track new release, important changes and other news (eg: monitor the
freebsd-announce lists). Maintain the "Release info" and
"Newsflash" pages. A weekly or bi-weekly "Whats new with FreeBSD"
summarizing interesting developments in or related to FreeBSD would
be a great addition, but a fair amount of work.
Gallery/Commercial Editor
Receive and verify submissions for the FreeBSD Gallery and the
Commercial Vendors pages. Weed dead links and periodically verify
the use of FreeBSD by those listed.
Style Police/Art Director
Ensure consistent and effective use of layout, graphics and logical
structure of the site as a whole. Assist other WWW developers in
implementing the "www.freebsd.org look and feel". A background in
HCI, with a focus on electronic text and graphic design, is
*extremely* desirable.
Handbook/FAQ/Tutorial Editor
Solicit new materials, arrange for updating of obsolete sections,
mundane style editing. Good technical writing skills essential
(since hackers are notoriously terrible writers). A familiarity
with the "novice user" is also helpful. Scanning the
freebsd-questions list is a must to keep in touch with what should
be in the FAQ. A broad familiarity with FreeBSD/Unix/X11 is more
important than a deep familiarity.
Note: The head FAQ maintainer's position has now been assumed
by Peter da Silva <pds@FreeBSD.ORG>, though the Handbook / Tutorials
still need attention and I'm sure that Peter would certainly welcome
any and all help with the FAQ as well.
Database Engineer
Manage (and hopefully improve) the mailing list archives and web
page searching.
CGI Engineer
Watch over CGI functionality, such as cvsweb and gnats. There is
great potential in developing a cgi interface to the ports too.
Other
A variety of other pages (eg Support) don't neatly fit in the above
categories. Someone needs to watch over these.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 11:21:51 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612061901.MAA24232@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
To: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:01:44 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <v01540b00aecda232d9b7@[194.32.164.2]> from "Bob Bishop" at Dec 6, 96 10:21:34 am
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> At 7:13 pm 5/12/96, Terry Lambert wrote:
> >[...]
> >Frequently, if you are mixing grammars, you have a -P<NAME> on the lex
> >to go with the -p<NAME> on the yacc...
>
> I agree it's broken. I suspect it's always been broken, but there are other
> ways to skin that particular cat. Several times I've seen people stuffing
> lex/yacc output thru sed to fix the prefixes; I don't like that much.
>
> What I usually do is use a 'super-grammar' whose top-level rule just
> switches between the real gramars based on a token which I arrange to stuff
> up the pipe when the parser starts. Lex/yacc output seems to restartable:
> this works OK.
Actually, I screwed up.
According to:
lex & yacc
John R. Levine, Tony Mason, & Doug Brown
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
ISBN 1-56592-000-7
The "-p" flag ("-P" for flex -- stupid flex) is supposed to affect:
yyback yybgin yycrank yyerror
yyestate yyextra yyfnd yyin
yyinput yyleng yylex yylineno
yylook yylsp yylstate yylval
yymatch yymorfg yyolsp yyout
yyoutput yyprevious yysbuf yysptr
yysvec yytchar yytext yytop
yyunput yyvstop yywrap
For the record, it doesn't. 8-(.
Also for the record, I believe yytext_ptr should be affected
as well, or it should at least be static.
I was sent some yacc patches from one of the other BSD's; apparently
yacc fails on two variables as well.
I still think that, even though the behaviour is documented, the
yylval is an external reference from the yacc; I may choose to not
use the same prefix for my yacc "-p" and my lex "-p"; if so, I
think they should still be capable of interoperating using the
inclusion of y.tab.h and an explicit {yy}lex() call replacement
stub.
In any case, with all the non-static globals, it's inlikely that
you could safely use multiple lexers in the same program without
seriously fixing lex.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 11:56:37 1996
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From: Archie Cobbs <archie@whistle.com>
Message-Id: <199612061955.LAA10393@bubba.whistle.com>
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
In-Reply-To: <199612060213.TAA21534@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Dec 5, 96 07:13:37 pm"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:55:53 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> When you generate a y.tab.h file using yacc -p<NAME>... ie:
>
> yacc -v -p<NAME>
>
> In the file y.tab.h, you get:
>
> [.. etc ..]
This is not meant to incite flamage, but ... why are you using
lex/yacc instead of flex/bison?
-Archie
___________________________________________________________________________
Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 13:09:47 1996
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Message-Id: <199612062107.IAA04281@suburbia.net>
Subject: Re: mount_mfs
In-Reply-To: <9955.849904535@critter.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Dec 6, 96 09:35:35 pm"
To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 08:07:40 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> Well, mfs has no real speed advantage over any "real" filesystem since
> we got the share VM/buffer code, so I generally avoid it.
>
> Remember that it isn't really a mfs but more like a swap-partition-fs.
Erm. What about for writes?
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 13:12:27 1996
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Dec 1996 19:16:40 MST."
<199612050216.TAA18540@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 16:11:51 -0500
From: Bakul Shah <bakul@plexuscom.com>
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> > If, instead of treating a thread *as* a schedulable entity, you
> > allow a set of threads to *belong to* the same schedulable entity,
> > you can be fair and get around the problems you mentined. The
> > kernel runs threads from the same group as long as their quantum has
> > not expired and atleast one of them is runnable. When it switches
> > back to the same group, it will use a FIFO scheme: the first
> > runnable thread to give up the processor is the first to run.
> It will, however, be unfair to threads within the group.
I guess we are being `fair' to different things!
If you treat all the threads/processes as equal then you are right.
But is being fair to threads is always the right thing to do?
Also, if you allow different priority levels, realtime/best-effort
scheduling etc. then you are already abandoning the `all processes
are equal' model (or, if you wish, `refining' it).
Equal fairness to all processes made sense in a '70s style
``multi-user'' system where each user ran one process (and to be
fair to your users you had to have fair scheduling of processes).
But now that is no longer the common case. Processes running on
your PC are all running to serve _you_. Processes running on a
server are perhaps closer to the multi-user case but even then there
one-to-one correspondence between clients and processes is not a
given. In fact different people may want to chose different
policies for their FTP/Web/Database servers (if running on the same
machine). Even for an FTP server, chances are, you want a bigger
slice of processing for your named clients compared to anonymous
clients. Within a given class all clients are treated equal but
none of the above scheme can be implemented with an equal fairness
to all threads scheduler.
One needs a very different concept of fairness and it even
means different things in different contexts.
An example. If some application is implemented in two different
ways, once as a single process (with purely user level threads) and
once as a multi-process (using kernel level threads), then with
traditional scheduling the second implementation will get many more
processor time quanta than the first one. This is not fair to the
users of the first implementation. You'd likely say: "Tough luck!
That is how things work". But IMHO an implementation choice should
not have such a drastic side-effect.
One should be able to use threads as just another `software
structuring' choice and have separate control over how the CPU is
used.
At any rate, I don't think one can design a scheduler that will be
fair under all circumstances. The best one can do is provide
mechanisms or hooks to implement a wide variety of fairness
policies, with some help from the user. IMHO being fair to threads
does not serve that purpose.
Back to thread groups.
Note that in such a scheme there needs to be a syscall or something
for a thread to become part of a "schedulable" thread group.
Ideally only __cooperating__ threads would want to belong to the
same group.
In the scenarios you presented, the N ftpds are *not* cooperating
with each other so there'd be no point in making them belong to the
same group.
But in general you should be able to use a larger quanta allocation
for process groups you want (so I am not suggesting one quantum per
thread group). If you are worried about responsiveness, put
interactive processes at a higher priority.
> > The above idea can be extended to multi processors fairly easily.
> > Though multi-processor schedulers that can also do realtime
> > scheduling (and appropriately deal with priority inversion) are not
> > easy.
>
> Heh. "locking nodes in a directed acylic graph representing a lock
> heirarchy" will address the priority inversion handily -- assuming
I was talking about scheduling realtime threads on an MP system,
running at different priority levels but which may want to share
objects. When a high prio. thread has to wait because a low
priority thread holds a lock it wants, we have priority inversion.
I don't think fair scheduling is easy when you consider these
issues.
Anyway, I don't see how computing lock hierarchy helps solve the
priority inversion problem. Priority inheritance is one known
solution. `Non-blocking synchronization' (NBS) is another way of
solving the priority inversion (as well as a host of other
problems).
BTW, you may wish to browse the NBS thread (a different kind of
thread) on comp.os.research. NBS may be something worth using
(instead of mutexs and locks) in the MP version of FreeBSD. Also
read Greenwald and Cheriton's "The Synergy Between Non-blocking
Synchronization and Operating System Structure" (accessible via
http://www-dsg.stanford.edu/Publications.html)
-- bakul
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop)
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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At 12:01 pm 6/12/96, Terry Lambert wrote:
>[...]
>In any case, with all the non-static globals, it's inlikely that
>you could safely use multiple lexers in the same program without
>seriously fixing lex.
True, but you don't need to; as I said in my previous reply you can run a
lexer multiple times. If you want different lex rules for different phases
(I've usually found that most are common), you can use a state variable and
REJECT.
[In case you missed it, in my last reply I was talking about multiple
grammars not multiple parsers.]
--
Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118
rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 14:33:48 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 23:00:21 +0100
From: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de>
Message-Id: <199612062200.XAA03030@campa.panke.de>
To: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, postmaster@freebsd.org, owner-majordomo@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: www@freebsd.org -> Returned mail: User unknown (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.961204125736.5257B-100000@fallout.campusview.indiana.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961204093901.3147C-120000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
<Pine.BSI.3.95.961204125736.5257B-100000@fallout.campusview.indiana.edu>
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John Fieber writes:
>> Hi, I tried to email www@freebsd.org with a problem concerning a link on
>> one of the freebsd web pages, but it seems the www alias on freefall
>> points to a non-existant user in Germany..
>Grrrr... I suppose www should be a majordomo list instead of a
>simple alias. Your message did get through to the other 6 or 8
>people attached to the www alias.
Agreed.
Wolfram
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 14:54:41 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 00:05:55 +0100 (MET)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
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To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
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I bought an A-Star (i430VX) mainboard and put in an Amd (K5) 133 MHz CPU.
dmesg tells me 100.23 MHz. Who's cheating?
--Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 15:21:04 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612062301.QAA24585@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
To: archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:01:20 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199612061955.LAA10393@bubba.whistle.com> from "Archie Cobbs" at Dec 6, 96 11:55:53 am
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> > When you generate a y.tab.h file using yacc -p<NAME>... ie:
> >
> > yacc -v -p<NAME>
> >
> > In the file y.tab.h, you get:
> >
> > [.. etc ..]
>
> This is not meant to incite flamage, but ... why are you using
> lex/yacc instead of flex/bison?
FreeBSD lex *is* flex.
So I *am* using flex (I have no choice, but I'd use it anyway because
of "-i" simplifying command start tokens).
The lex bugs are flex bugs.
I'm using yacc instead of bison because of the GPL. The yacc/bison
grammar->code reduction includes code distributed with the tool. For
bison, this code is GPL'ed. For yacc, it is not. I don't want the
resulting code to be GPL restricted about how I can use it, therefore
I use yacc.
Note: "use", as in "produce a non-free derivitive work from", not
"utilize", as in "run the resulting binaries, but not give them
away or sell them".
The yacc bugs are yacc bugs, not bison bugs.
If I were to utilize a tool other than yacc, it'd probably be SSL before
it would be bison, anyway.
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 15:48:37 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:46:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Marc Slemko <marcs@znep.com>
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
cc: Greg Skafte <skafte@worldgate.com>
Subject: The alternate system clock has died!
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We are seeing a system that occasionally gets into a state where things
like top, vmstat, etc. give odd numbers. systat will give the message
"The alternate system clock has died!". I remember talk of this problem
before on the lists, but can't find it since the search engine at
www.freebsd.org seems to be down. (anyone know where a plain-text ftpable
copy of the list archives is?)
Was this issue ever resolved? Does it cause any more serious
problems? It looks like cp_time stops getting updated; would I be
right to guess that cp_time is just an alternate clock used only
for profiling type things?
The server is running -stable, so I wouldn't be too suprised if it has
been fixed in -current.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 16:10:06 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:09:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: Archie Cobbs <archie@whistle.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
In-Reply-To: <199612062301.QAA24585@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Terry Lambert wrote:
> FreeBSD lex *is* flex.
>
> So I *am* using flex (I have no choice, but I'd use it anyway because
> of "-i" simplifying command start tokens).
>
> The lex bugs are flex bugs.
>
>
> I'm using yacc instead of bison because of the GPL. The yacc/bison
> grammar->code reduction includes code distributed with the tool. For
> bison, this code is GPL'ed. For yacc, it is not. I don't want the
> resulting code to be GPL restricted about how I can use it, therefore
> I use yacc.
Terry, I will be the first to admit I'm no lawyer, but I thought that the
output from bison was not in itself GPL'ed, just the bison code itself.
Let me quote the part I think is relevant from the COPYING file from bison
1.25:
"Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of
running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program
is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the
Program (independent of having been made by running the Program).
Whether that is true depends on what the Program does."
I am looking at the line that says the output of the program isn't
restricted. Doesn't that mean that the output of bison isn't GPL'ed?
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data
chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302 |
Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 16:45:30 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612070025.RAA24721@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
To: bakul@plexuscom.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:25:19 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612062111.QAA22343@chai.plexuscom.com> from "Bakul Shah" at Dec 6, 96 04:11:51 pm
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> > It will, however, be unfair to threads within the group.
>
> I guess we are being `fair' to different things!
>
> If you treat all the threads/processes as equal then you are right.
> But is being fair to threads is always the right thing to do?
If it's not, then I guarantee you, I will probably use processes
with shared context, rather than programming with threads. It is
in my best interest as a vendor to make my application seem as
fast as I can possibly make it appear, even if it means starving
out processes which are not my application.
> Also, if you allow different priority levels, realtime/best-effort
> scheduling etc. then you are already abandoning the `all processes
> are equal' model (or, if you wish, `refining' it).
The RT on the timer events for process B, even though A has execution
contexts which it is prepared to run, and quantum remaining, is an
issue of timer granularity vs. quantum granularity. Certain system
calls make guarantees that they can't really live up to without it.
> Equal fairness to all processes made sense in a '70s style
> ``multi-user'' system where each user ran one process (and to be
> fair to your users you had to have fair scheduling of processes).
> But now that is no longer the common case. Processes running on
> your PC are all running to serve _you_. Processes running on a
> server are perhaps closer to the multi-user case but even then there
> one-to-one correspondence between clients and processes is not a
> given. In fact different people may want to chose different
> policies for their FTP/Web/Database servers (if running on the same
> machine). Even for an FTP server, chances are, you want a bigger
> slice of processing for your named clients compared to anonymous
> clients. Within a given class all clients are treated equal but
> none of the above scheme can be implemented with an equal fairness
> to all threads scheduler.
It can if the program can decide fairness in the context of which
threads it chooses to schedule on the next available quantum. The
fairness of "how much quantum does the program have to play with"
is a seperate issue (as it should be).
I may be allowed 5 out of 160 quantums, but they are not allocated
to me contiguously. That's the point.
> One needs a very different concept of fairness and it even
> means different things in different contexts.
Yes. Seperate "awarded quantum" from "amount of context utilization
of a single quantum, per context".
> An example. If some application is implemented in two different
> ways, once as a single process (with purely user level threads) and
> once as a multi-process (using kernel level threads), then with
> traditional scheduling the second implementation will get many more
> processor time quanta than the first one. This is not fair to the
> users of the first implementation. You'd likely say: "Tough luck!
> That is how things work". But IMHO an implementation choice should
> not have such a drastic side-effect.
I agree. I would further seperate the "multiple kernel thread case"
from the "multiple process case". The two are only apparently the
same if you are measuring "competition for real quantum". For a
threaded process, the real masure is "competition for effective
quantum".
A "perfect" scheduler in user space would have a quantum "goal" of
"one quantum award per blockable context, with remaining quantum
returned to the system". This means that if I have 10 threads,
and I can run two contexts until block on a given real quantum,
then in effect, I should have 5 real quantum assigned to the process
(thread group) for a net total of 10 "effective quanta": the same as
I would have if there were one unthreaded process competing for
quanta normally.
> One should be able to use threads as just another `software
> structuring' choice and have separate control over how the CPU is
> used.
Yes. I would not go so far as to allow a user to say "I need to compete
as if I were 1000 processes". The user thread abstraction could be
implemented in the kernel at the trap entry interface; the scheduler
would not be under direct user control unless the user had special
privileges granted (just like the timer calls would not make RT
guarantees for better than quantum resoloution without RT privs).
Effectively, this means implementing prioritized round-robin in user
space, using a "Yield"-style interface to implement user space thread
context switching.
> At any rate, I don't think one can design a scheduler that will be
> fair under all circumstances. The best one can do is provide
> mechanisms or hooks to implement a wide variety of fairness
> policies, with some help from the user. IMHO being fair to threads
> does not serve that purpose.
The *only* point in being fair to threads is to not disincent their
use. The USL folks (New Jersey) wanted the NetWare for UNIX server
on UnixWare to use their threading abstraction. We (the NWU architecture
team) refused because of the fairness issue. Writing a new scheduling
class to work around brain-damage in their architecture was not really
a viable option. Instead, we went to shared user space context and
multiple processes. Since the processes were anonymous (identical)
work-to-do model engines, we could better overcome the process context
switch problem by using FILO scheduling of read returns at the incoming
NCP packet mux (my design: "hot engine scheduling"). Basically, the
last guy to make a call was likely to have his mappings currently active,
so the call was not blocked, and the first entry was dequeued. You
replace "send/recv" with an ioctl that combines the two operations: it
does a send and blocks for an incoming NCP, which could be handled by
any service engine.
The resulting server beat the performance of the Native NetWare server
on the exact same hardware (same disk even) by 10% or more. This was
after the 10% hit from moving from UnixWare 1.x to 2.x, and the 15%
hit on top of that from moving from monolithic ethernet drivers to
ODI drivers. This wasn't publicized much (but it should have been).
I can say with confidence, that not including the change to the kernel
to support sharing of descriptor tables and using shared memory for
global state, and instead using a threaded model, would have resulted
in significantly *worse* performance for the product. The SVR4 threads
were (*are*) simply not up to the job of replacing processes.
> Back to thread groups.
>
> Note that in such a scheme there needs to be a syscall or something
> for a thread to become part of a "schedulable" thread group.
> Ideally only __cooperating__ threads would want to belong to the
> same group.
Yeah; this call is "create_thread". 8-).
> In the scenarios you presented, the N ftpds are *not* cooperating
> with each other so there'd be no point in making them belong to the
> same group.
Actually, if they are using mmap() on files to save the user->kernel
copy overhead, then sharing the context between multiple clients
pulling down the same files would be a valuable optimization. If
we replace "ftp" with "tftp" and say the clients are a bunch of X
terminals getting boot and font files, then it's a much better example.
Also, the "theory" is that even with a normal ftpd with non-cooperating
other ftpd's, you supposedly "save process context switch overhead"
(I think you agree with me that this is a special case fallacy).
> But in general you should be able to use a larger quanta allocation
> for process groups you want (so I am not suggesting one quantum per
> thread group). If you are worried about responsiveness, put
> interactive processes at a higher priority.
The problem is in transparently exposing this facility *without* opening
up denial-of-service attacks or similar holes. I think the trap-level
cooperative user space thread scheduler is one promising way of
hiding the tuning behind a protection domain. You can grant a
licence to cross this domain to particular special cases, but the
default should be that the threaded server process competes on an equal
footing with the multiprocess server.
> > > The above idea can be extended to multi processors fairly easily.
> > > Though multi-processor schedulers that can also do realtime
> > > scheduling (and appropriately deal with priority inversion) are not
> > > easy.
> >
> > Heh. "locking nodes in a directed acylic graph representing a lock
> > heirarchy" will address the priority inversion handily -- assuming
>
> I was talking about scheduling realtime threads on an MP system,
> running at different priority levels but which may want to share
> objects. When a high prio. thread has to wait because a low
> priority thread holds a lock it wants, we have priority inversion.
> I don't think fair scheduling is easy when you consider these
> issues.
If you detect a collision with a lower priority holder of the resource,
you can lend priority at that time. Priority lending is the classic
mechanism for resolving priority inversion based deadlocks. The
problem is detecting the deadlock condition when it occurs; without
a graphical soloution, it's a nearly insoluable problem (unless you
simply preempt the resource, and that's got other problems).
> Anyway, I don't see how computing lock hierarchy helps solve the
> priority inversion problem. Priority inheritance is one known
> solution. `Non-blocking synchronization' (NBS) is another way of
> solving the priority inversion (as well as a host of other
> problems).
If you lock resources when you grab them and unlock them when you
release them, then priority inversion becomes detectable. What you
do about it is only meaningful after it has been detected. Doing
the detection is the hard part.
>
> BTW, you may wish to browse the NBS thread (a different kind of
> thread) on comp.os.research. NBS may be something worth using
> (instead of mutexs and locks) in the MP version of FreeBSD. Also
> read Greenwald and Cheriton's "The Synergy Between Non-blocking
> Synchronization and Operating System Structure" (accessible via
> http://www-dsg.stanford.edu/Publications.html)
Thanks for the references; I will look them up...
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 16:45:54 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:45:41 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199612070045.RAA23269@rocky.mt.sri.com>
From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
Cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, Archie Cobbs <archie@whistle.com>,
hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961206190548.16014C-100000@carrier.eng.umd.edu>
References: <199612062301.QAA24585@phaeton.artisoft.com>
<Pine.OSF.3.95.961206190548.16014C-100000@carrier.eng.umd.edu>
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> > I'm using yacc instead of bison because of the GPL. The yacc/bison
> > grammar->code reduction includes code distributed with the tool. For
> > bison, this code is GPL'ed. For yacc, it is not. I don't want the
> > resulting code to be GPL restricted about how I can use it, therefore
> > I use yacc.
>
> Terry, I will be the first to admit I'm no lawyer, but I thought that the
> output from bison was not in itself GPL'ed, just the bison code
> itself.
Actually, until recently the output from bison was GPL'd, but they
changed it b/c nobody was using bison or somesuch.
Nate
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 16:50:22 1996
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From: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
Message-Id: <199612070048.RAA12021@hemi.com>
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
To: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:48:48 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <v01540b01aece468c5e17@[194.32.164.2]> from "Bob Bishop" at Dec 6, 96 09:59:34 pm
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> At 12:01 pm 6/12/96, Terry Lambert wrote:
> >[...]
> >In any case, with all the non-static globals, it's inlikely that
> >you could safely use multiple lexers in the same program without
> >seriously fixing lex.
>
> True, but you don't need to; as I said in my previous reply you can run a
> lexer multiple times. If you want different lex rules for different phases
> (I've usually found that most are common), you can use a state variable and
> REJECT.
REJECT is very expensive and tremendously slows down the scanner,
especially used extensively in this manner.
For many cases, you are better off writing the scanners by hand,
and let yacc do the work (in most instances, the scanner is
much more simpler than the parser anyway.)
See the GDB sources on how they did this to parse multiple
languages (C, Modula-2, etc.) All the variables which need to
be renamed are listed, and you can see how they implement
multiple yylex() functions, one for each supported language.
Regards,
-Ade
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 16:54:51 1996
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From: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
Message-Id: <199612070054.RAA12233@hemi.com>
Subject: bug in 2.2-alpha loopback (?)
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:54:48 -0700 (MST)
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[Sorry if you got this twice, this is a resend, seems that the first
one didn't get through]
Hi,
It seems that read() on a socket via the loopback interface does not
return 0 ("EOF") when the socket is broken. Instead, it returns 1,
with the data returned being '\004' (ctrl-D).
This breaks various code which check return values with:
if ((ret = read (....)) <= 0)
/* error processing here */
since ret gets set to 1. (In my case, lex gets really confused.)
For convenience, sample test code appended. It simply binds to port
2000 and waits for a connection. Telnet to localhost port 2000, hit
ctrl-] and quit, and read the result (should return 0). Works fine
in 2.1.x, breaks on 2.2-Alpha.
Thanks,
-Ade
ps. sorry I don't know enough to make a bug-fix patch.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Inet: mbarkah@hemi.com - HEMISPHERE ONLINE - <http://www.hemi.com/>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
--CUT HERE--
#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <errno.h>
#include <sys/param.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <netinet/in.h>
int
main(void)
{
int c, s, fd, alen=1, ret, port = 2000, opval = 1;
char buf[1024];
struct sockaddr_in sin, cin;
bzero(&sin, sizeof(sin));
sin.sin_family = AF_INET;
sin.sin_addr.s_addr = INADDR_ANY;
sin.sin_port = htons((unsigned short) port);
if ((s = socket(PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0)) == -1) {
perror("ERROR: Can't get socket");
exit(-1);
}
if (setsockopt(s, SOL_SOCKET, SO_REUSEADDR, (int *) &opval,
sizeof(opval)) == -1) {
perror("ERROR: Cannot set SO_REUSEADDR");
exit(-1);
}
if (setsockopt(s, SOL_SOCKET, SO_KEEPALIVE, (int *) &opval,
sizeof(opval)) == -1) {
perror("ERROR: Cannot set SO_KEEPALIVE");
exit(-1);
}
if (bind(s, (struct sockaddr *) & sin, sizeof(sin)) == -1) {
perror("ERROR: Failed to bind");
return (-1);
}
if (listen(s, 3) == -1) {
perror("ERROR: Can't listen()");
return (-1);
}
printf("Waiting for client on port %d\n", port);
alen = sizeof(cin);
fd = accept (s, (struct sockaddr *)&cin, &alen);
ret = read(fd, buf, sizeof(buf)-1);
printf("Attention, read() returned %d.\n", ret);
if (ret > 10)
ret = 10;
for (c = 0; c < ret; c++)
printf("[%d]", buf[c]);
printf("\n");
}
--CUT HERE--
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 16:56:15 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:55:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org, doc@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Following positions seeking volunteers!
In-Reply-To: <18334.849897620@time.cdrom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.94.961206192118.10900A-100000@vinyl.quickweb.com>
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On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> As some of you may already know, our long suffering and now
> far-too-overloaded Webmaster / Docmaster, John Fieber, has asked that
> one or more people be found to fill his shoes in the Webmaster &
> Docmaster roles so that he may focus on his doctoral studies.
Sounds fair! I've always thought that the FreeBSD web pages were a
fantastic resource, and maintaining / improving that resource is something
very worth while.
>
> All we can offer you in return is a good opportunity for learning and
> a chance to do something truly important for FreeBSD. Documentation
> and Webmastering can be a somewhat thankless job, and the better job
> you do it seems the more people will take you for granted, but it's
> nontheless absolutely *vital* that FreeBSD continue to grow and
> improve in these areas, and your contributions are the only way that
> will happen.
>
> Anyone?
>
I'll volunteer for anything you need help with. I'm available as a
"general" and a "soldier" - see below for details =) Basically, I think I
have the time / qualifications to help out with 3 of the positions below,
and be a "general" on the database stuff.
> Thanks!
>
> Jordan
>
> Positions:
>
> News Bureau
>
> Track new release, important changes and other news (eg: monitor the
> freebsd-announce lists). Maintain the "Release info" and
> "Newsflash" pages. A weekly or bi-weekly "Whats new with FreeBSD"
> summarizing interesting developments in or related to FreeBSD would
> be a great addition, but a fair amount of work.
I can help out with this - I'm a relatively good writer, and a decent
motivator/promoter. I don't have the time it would take to do this job
right, but I'll help assemble articles, etc.. Or just HTML formatting if
trench work needs to be done.
> Style Police/Art Director
>
> Ensure consistent and effective use of layout, graphics and logical
> structure of the site as a whole. Assist other WWW developers in
> implementing the "www.freebsd.org look and feel". A background in
> HCI, with a focus on electronic text and graphic design, is
> *extremely* desirable.
Again, I can help on this one, but I don't have the design/HCI knowledge
to feel comfortable dictating to others how sites should be laid out. I do
have a LOT of experience with web site building, but I'm always on the
technical "this is what the technology can do" side of the table. My
artistic innovation is far less than I'd like =) For a reference, check
out http://www.hi-fi.com. I created/designed/coded this site with 3 other
friends. www.audiobile.com as well...
On a side note, I'm currently talking with a brilliant design friend
about the "FreeBSD Image" - he professinally designs the look (logos,
slogans, etc.) of companies, and has recently been playing with web site
layout. He might have some neato ideas about a new FreeBSD layout.
>
> Handbook/FAQ/Tutorial Editor
>
> Solicit new materials, arrange for updating of obsolete sections,
> mundane style editing. Good technical writing skills essential
> (since hackers are notoriously terrible writers). A familiarity
> with the "novice user" is also helpful. Scanning the
> freebsd-questions list is a must to keep in touch with what should
> be in the FAQ. A broad familiarity with FreeBSD/Unix/X11 is more
> important than a deep familiarity.
>
> Note: The head FAQ maintainer's position has now been assumed
> by Peter da Silva <pds@FreeBSD.ORG>, though the Handbook / Tutorials
> still need attention and I'm sure that Peter would certainly welcome
> any and all help with the FAQ as well.
>
Again, I can help out... Although I am currently and undergrad in Comp.
Sci., I came to University on an Engligh scholarship. I can write, when
forced too ;-)
>
> Database Engineer
>
> Manage (and hopefully improve) the mailing list archives and web
> page searching.
>
This is the area I'd most like to look into. I don't know if you noticed,
but I've already started work along this line! I posted a while back that
I was playing with a new mail archive and search format. The fruits of my
labour are at: http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark/FreeBSD
The above URL leads to "Round 1" of the experimentation. The current setup
uses hypermail to archive, and HtDig to search. Hypermail has to go:
pid 14424 (hypermail), uid 1: exited on signal 11
pid 14442 (hypermail), uid 1: exited on signal 11
pid 14567 (hypermail), uid 1: exited on signal 11
pid 14579 (hypermail), uid 1: exited on signal 11
It dumps on any amount of load... The top contender for replacing
hypermail is MHonArc - a perl script that arranges articles, which you can
view by thread, or date. It's not quite as nifty as hypermail (which lets
you order articles by thread, date, subject, or author), but it doesn't
core dump - always a bonus. My initial testing of MHonArc is encouraging.
Performance is not bad, and the results are visualy pleasing as well.
I'm happy with HtDig for searching. I haven't played with the config too
much at the above URL, but I think that it can be tweaked to be quite
suitable for searching the mail archives (or a web site in general). I
like the "5 star" rating stuff, and the ability to display results in a
long or short format. An alternative to HtDig (assuming I keep with the
MHonArc archiver) is a dedicated MHonArc script. There are two available
that I'm aware of, but I haven't tested them yet. And there's always the
custom approach, which will eventually be required. I'm still now
completely satisfied with any of the systems out there, which suggests
I'll have to write one up that does the job right. Maybe I'll talk to my
supervisor and see if I can't arrange for some funding to start research
along these lines.
It's exam time right now, so I've been busy with other matters, but I'm
planning on spending a day on the MHonArc testing next Friday (Dec. 13th).
Otherwise, I'm heading home for the holidays, so I won't be available
until the beginning of January. I'll be on a strict no-computer diet :-)
Joe Grecco and myself (as well as several others) have discussed the
database possibilities in low detail already. I'm sure we can get
something together that will make the wealth of knowledge tucked away in
the mail archives more approachable for novices, while being powerful
enough to satisfy the hackers.
cya,
-Mark
---------------------------------------------------
| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com |
| RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark |
---------------------------------------------------
"To iterate is human, to recurse divine."
- L. Peter Deutsch
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 17:03:38 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612070043.RAA24762@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
To: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:43:28 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <v01540b01aece468c5e17@[194.32.164.2]> from "Bob Bishop" at Dec 6, 96 09:59:34 pm
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> >In any case, with all the non-static globals, it's inlikely that
> >you could safely use multiple lexers in the same program without
> >seriously fixing lex.
>
> True, but you don't need to; as I said in my previous reply you can run a
> lexer multiple times. If you want different lex rules for different phases
> (I've usually found that most are common), you can use a state variable and
> REJECT.
>
> [In case you missed it, in my last reply I was talking about multiple
> grammars not multiple parsers.]
This works well for combined encapsulation.
Seperable encapsulation is a different story.
Consider: I have a C++ class RFC821_class.
When an SMTP connection comes in, I instantiate a class memebr object.
When data becomes available, I call a parse_data method from the class.
RFC821 data streams encapsulate RFC822 data streams. For Internet
use of RFC821, this is a definition. Specifically, the RFC821
machine needs to provide "Received:" and "From" header items,
at a minimum. At a maximum, it needs to supply "Apparently-To:"
and "X-Authentication-Warning:" headers to be written with the
saved RFC822-encapsulated message.
For RFC822, I have a C++ class RFC822_class. The RFC822_class
is subclassed from a virtual base class supporting "additiona header items".
The RFC822_class is subclassed from the same class, and can therfore
reference the "additional header items" class contents from the
RFC821_class parent class object as if the RFC821_class object
were of type "additional header items" class.
When an SMTP connection comes in, I instantiate an RFC821_class
object and then and RFC822_class object.
In doing so, I replace the RFC821_class data_disposition interface
such that data coming in via the "DATA <CR> ... <CR> . <CR>" is passed
to the RFC822_class for RFC822 parsing.
This is combined encapsulation.
Now consider: I may wish to use the RFC822_class in an MUA as well as
the MTA use I just described. In that case, the RFC822_class is *not*
subclassed on the RFC821_class object: there is *no* RFC821_class
object for that to happen (obviously, "additional header items" must
be a virtual base class).
Because of this, the RFC821_parse and RFC822_parse functions (implemented
by a class specific yyparse()) must be seperate.
This is seperable encapsulation.
I haven't even gotten into MIME encapsulation, and use of content
transfer encoding "quoted-printable" to replace a leading "From" in
a mailbox with "=46rom" instead of ">From" or " From", either of
which might screw up PGP authentication, or parsing for other
reasons. 8-(.
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 17:08:37 1996
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199612070048.RAA24781@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:48:25 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, archie@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961206190548.16014C-100000@carrier.eng.umd.edu> from "Chuck Robey" at Dec 6, 96 07:09:56 pm
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> > I'm using yacc instead of bison because of the GPL. The yacc/bison
> > grammar->code reduction includes code distributed with the tool. For
> > bison, this code is GPL'ed. For yacc, it is not. I don't want the
> > resulting code to be GPL restricted about how I can use it, therefore
> > I use yacc.
>
> Terry, I will be the first to admit I'm no lawyer, but I thought that the
> output from bison was not in itself GPL'ed, just the bison code itself.
> Let me quote the part I think is relevant from the COPYING file from bison
> 1.25:
See Nate's reply. The rote code coming out for the y.tab.c equivalent
used to have a GNU "Copyleft" notice in it. This is because the code
produced is not entirely output; it also includes static information
stuffed in there by bison itself. The static information was what
was in question.
Regards,
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 18:24:48 1996
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To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2.2-ALPHA installation problem.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Dec 1996 19:01:58 +0100."
<199612061801.TAA24851@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 18:24:38 -0800
Message-ID: <19358.849925478@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> I'm trying to install 2.2-ALPHA on an IDE drive (120MB, 60MB root, 60MB swap)
> minimal installation. At 98% of the bin extract I'm getting
>
> Write failure on transfer! (wrote -1 bytes of 1024 bytes)
>
> What could be the cause? Bad hardware (it's a Maxtor 7120 IDE disk) ?
What are you trying to install *from*, Christoph?
Jordan
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 18:32:34 1996
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199612070231.NAA01029@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.2-ALPHA installation problem.
In-Reply-To: <199612061801.TAA24851@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from Christoph Kukulies at "Dec 6, 96 07:01:58 pm"
To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:01:57 +1030 (CST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
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Christoph Kukulies stands accused of saying:
>
> I'm trying to install 2.2-ALPHA on an IDE drive (120MB, 60MB root, 60MB swap)
> minimal installation. At 98% of the bin extract I'm getting
>
> Write failure on transfer! (wrote -1 bytes of 1024 bytes)
>
> What could be the cause? Bad hardware (it's a Maxtor 7120 IDE disk) ?
You've probably run out of disk space. Go to the holographic shell
and look with 'df'.
> --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
>
--
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[
]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[
]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[
]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 18:34:22 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:41:28 -0800
From: fyeung@fyeung8.netific.com (Francis Yeung)
Message-Id: <9612070241.AA00891@fyeung8.netific.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: port of linux's efax
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Greetings,
Is there a port of the Linux's efax for FreeBSD ?
Thanks.
Francis
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 20:55:57 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:29:59 -0800 (PST)
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From: mark thompson <thompson@tgsoft.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: trying to upgrade to 2.2
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build /u/build2.2/Root, using dump/restore to copy my (working)
2.1.6.1 system (/, /var, /usr).
cvsupped 12/6 (release=cvs host=cvsup.freebsd.org)
extracted with:
cvs -d /home/ncvs $QUIET -r checkout -r RELENG_2_2 -d `pwd`/src src
build with:
chroot /u/build2.2/Root \
sh -c 'cd /usr/src && make -DNOCLEAN "-DSHARED=copies" world'
NB: this is roughly how i have performed all of my upgrades since 2.1,
which i got from CD. When i get a successful build, i rerun the
procedure without the chroot on my live filesystem.
The build starts off well enough:
--------------------------------------------------------------
make world started on Fri Dec 6 13:11:21 PST 1996
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
Making hierarchy
--------------------------------------------------------------
cd /usr/src && make hierarchy
cd /usr/src/etc && make distrib-dirs
mtree -deU -f /usr/src/etc/mtree/BSD.root.dist -p /
mtree -deU -f /usr/src/etc/mtree/BSD.var.dist -p /var
but it runs into trouble in the gnu directory:
===> gnu/usr.bin/cc/cc_int
cannot open /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc/cc_int/../../../../contrib/gcc/version.c: no such file
"../Makefile.inc", line 31: warning: Couldn't read shell's output
"../Makefile.inc", line 31: warning: "sed -e 's/.*\"\([^ \"]*\)[ \"].*/\1/' < ${GCCDIR}/version.c" returned non-zero
/usr/obj/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc/cc_int created for /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc/cc_int
And more trouble:
===> gnu/usr.bin/groff/devX100
"Makefile", line 6: Could not find /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/devX100/../../../../contrib/groff/devX100/Makefile.sub
Fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue
*** Error code 1
Stop.
/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc/Makefile.inc sez:
#
# $Id: Makefile.inc,v 1.17 1996/10/01 03:44:29 peter Exp $
#
# Sometimes this is .include'd several times...
.if !defined(GCCDIR)
GCCDIR= ${.CURDIR}/../../../../contrib/gcc
.PATH: ../cc_tools ${GCCDIR} ${GCCDIR}/cp ${GCCDIR}/objc
and /u/build2.2/Root/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/devX100/Makefile sez:
# $Id: Makefile,v 1.4 1996/09/09 18:05:12 phk Exp $
#
# Generic groff font makefile
#
.include "${.CURDIR}/../Makefile.inc"
.include "${DIST_DIR}/Makefile.sub"
.include "${.CURDIR}/../Makefile.dev"
=================
My question is:
1) is '../../contrib' a new idea in 2.2?
2) is something supposed to override these and it isn't being set up?
3) is something faulty with my procedure?
=================
4) I notice that in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs just about all of the
source has been moved to Attic, and are not tagged for 2.2. Are the
gnu things being moved out to ports? If this was discussed at length,
i apologize, i must have somehow missed it.
-mark
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 23:06:00 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:05:47 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Bakul Shah <bakul@plexuscom.com>
cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: clone()/rfork()/threads (Re: Inferno for FreeBSD)
In-Reply-To: <199612062111.QAA22343@chai.plexuscom.com>
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On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Bakul Shah wrote:
> > > scheduling (and appropriately deal with priority inversion) are not
> > > easy.
> >
> > Heh. "locking nodes in a directed acylic graph representing a lock
> > heirarchy" will address the priority inversion handily -- assuming
>
> I was talking about scheduling realtime threads on an MP system,
> running at different priority levels but which may want to share
> objects. When a high prio. thread has to wait because a low
> priority thread holds a lock it wants, we have priority inversion.
> I don't think fair scheduling is easy when you consider these
> issues.
Terry is talking about a global policy for detecting priority inversion
whereas you are probably talking about a local policy, priority lending.
Priority lending is where lower priority thread holds a lock that a higher
priority thread wants, so the higher priority thread lends its priority
to the lower priority thread to prevent it from being preempted by another
high priority thread that doesn't need the object.
Priority lending is easier for me to understand. On the other hand maybe
the difference is like the difference between 100VG and 100BT.
Regards,
Mike Hancock
From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 6 23:33:45 1996
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From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199612070746.IAA29679@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Subject: Re: 2.2-ALPHA installation problem.
In-Reply-To: <19358.849925478@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 6, 96 06:24:38 pm"
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 08:46:55 +0100 (MET)
Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
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> > I'm trying to install 2.2-ALPHA on an IDE drive (120MB, 60MB root, 60MB swap)
> > minimal installation. At 98% of the bin extract I'm getting
> >
> > Write failure on transfer! (wrote -1 bytes of 1024 bytes)
> >
> > What could be the cause? Bad hardware (it's a Maxtor 7120 IDE disk) ?
>
> What are you trying to install *from*, Christoph?
I have a tree /usr/ftp/pub/FreeBSD/2.2-ALPHA on a machine in
my local net (off Internet) with only the bin dir and the toplevel
files in it (INSTALL.TXT, HARDWARE etc.) and I'm mounting via NFS
192.168.0.1:/usr/ftp/pub/FreeBSD/2.2-ALPHA
in the Media section.
BTW, you can imagine that it is likely to mistype that mount command
once or twice. I always had problems with trying it twice. Then I got
'no such process (3) or some such (off memory)' .
>
> Jordan
>
--Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 01:23:51 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 01:23:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: MROUTING & gated
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In order for gated to handle ospf properly, does MROUTING need to be
enabled in the kernel?
tcpdump reveals that gated sends ospf HELO requests to 224.0.0.5
Tom
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 01:31:19 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:26:07 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199612070926.UAA21725@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, marcs@znep.com
Subject: Re: The alternate system clock has died!
Cc: skafte@worldgate.com
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>"The alternate system clock has died!". I remember talk of this problem
>
>Was this issue ever resolved? Does it cause any more serious
>problems? It looks like cp_time stops getting updated; would I be
>right to guess that cp_time is just an alternate clock used only
>for profiling type things?
Not resolved. It stops scheduling from working fairly. The statistics
clock is used for scheduling, for division of process time into
real/user/sys and for profiling type things.
Kicking the clock by setting the kernel variable `ipending' to 0x100
will probably restart it.
Bruce
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 02:00:37 1996
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From: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
Message-Id: <199612071000.DAA02692@hemi.com>
Subject: Update: Re: ucd-snmpd w/freebsd
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 03:00:28 -0700 (MST)
In-Reply-To: <56vo8j$irv$1@haywire.DIALix.COM> from "Peter Wemm" at Nov 20, 96 08:04:35 pm
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[Summary: snmpd returned wrong interface counter values due to
caching.]
FYI, Wes Hardaker made available ucd-snmp v. 3.1.2.1 which fixed
the problem. Excerpted from the ChangeLog:
whardake 22 Nov 96 08:18:29
- (snmp_vars.c): Trash interface caching.
whardake 22 Nov 96 09:06:10
- (snmp_vars.c): Merge from FreeBSD2-3-1-1.
- Add checks for ifnet.[io]bytes.
(I have nothing to do with the project or the fix, I just complained
a lot about the bug.) The latest version of the ucd-snmp can be had
from: ftp://ftp.ece.ucdavis.edu/pub/snmp/ucd-snmp.tar.gz.
Regards,
-Ade
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Inet: mbarkah@hemi.com - HEMISPHERE ONLINE - <http://www.hemi.com/>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 03:11:34 1996
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To: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop)
Subject: Re: Yacc -p<NAME> is broken
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
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At 5:48 pm 6/12/96, Ade Barkah wrote:
>[...]
>REJECT is very expensive and tremendously slows down the scanner,
>especially used extensively in this manner.
Yeah, I have to admit that for (say) a compiler I'd avoid REJECT. I've only
used it much in a heavy data analysis application where the lex/parse is
well under 1% of the total runtime.
--
Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118
rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 04:23:32 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612071207.NAA18316@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: Bizarro bug in 2.1.6 that's had me stumped for ages...
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:07:27 +0100 (MET)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <1887.849572986@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 2, 96 04:29:46 pm"
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As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > What's your routing table look like when this happens?
> >
> > Bill
>
> Pretty much normal - my default route is there along with the usual
> host routes for the machines on my physical ethernet.
Don't forget to add the -a flag to netstat -r when you look at the
routing table. This will show you the (normally hidden) cloned
entries (which expire after about an hour or so).
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 04:23:46 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612071216.NAA18402@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: But it didn't work.
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:16:31 +0100 (MET)
Cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <199612032211.PAA00422@rover.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Dec 3, 96 03:11:10 pm"
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As Warner Losh wrote:
> : You are running UFS on the drive, right?
>
> Yes. Why wouldn't lsof show anything, yet umount think the drive is
> still busy?
I've once noticed problems of this kind if the UFS in questions has
device nodes that are currently open, regardless of whether the
pathname on the mounted device or any other UFS has been used to open
this descriptor. E.g., if your JAZ disk has a /dev/console on it, and
/dev/console is currently open (which it usually is), you can't umount
it without also setting MNT_FORCE (aka. ``umount -f'').
Needless to say, with DEVFS, you no longer need to have device nodes
on your UFS at all. :-)
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 04:25:59 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612071213.NAA18370@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: bug in 2.2-alpha loopback (?)
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:13:18 +0100 (MET)
Cc: mbarkah@hemi.com (Ade Barkah)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <199612070054.RAA12233@hemi.com> from Ade Barkah at "Dec 6, 96 05:54:48 pm"
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As Ade Barkah wrote:
> It seems that read() on a socket via the loopback interface does not
> return 0 ("EOF") when the socket is broken. Instead, it returns 1,
> with the data returned being '\004' (ctrl-D).
I can't reproduce this with your test program:
j@uriah 1455% ./bar
Waiting for client on port 2000
Attention, read() returned 0.
(I've telnetted to port 2000, and entered a telnet close. I thinks
that's what it was meant to be.)
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 06:45:58 1996
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From: michael butler <imb@scgt.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199612071445.BAA01497@asstdc.scgt.oz.au>
Subject: Re: MROUTING & gated
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.94.961207012131.28524A-100000@misery.sdf.com> from Tom Samplonius at "Dec 7, 96 01:23:44 am"
To: tom@sdf.com (Tom Samplonius)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 01:45:10 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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Tom Samplonius writes:
> In order for gated to handle ospf properly, does MROUTING need to be
> enabled in the kernel?
Not if all the routers exchanging SPF data are directly connected via
multicast-capable interfaces (which includes FreeBSD's PPP, I believe),
michael
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 06:53:21 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612071425.PAA19846@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: Driver help
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 15:25:49 +0100 (MET)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <199612030057.LAA06521@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Dec 3, 96 11:27:06 am"
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As Michael Smith wrote:
> IMHO, using copyin/out in drivers is bogus in most cases.
It's necessary if you've got a weird third argument to an ioctl,
something where you can't encode the actual argument size in the ioctl
itself.
But i agree that it is rarely needed in BSD.
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 07:52:53 1996
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From: proff@suburbia.net
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Subject: strange problems with recent current
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:52:13 +1100 (EST)
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Dec 8 02:37:59 evil /kernel: cy15: 5 more silo overflows (total 3876)
Dec 8 02:38:00 evil /kernel: cy8: 1 more silo overflow (total 7)
Dec 8 02:38:00 evil /kernel: cy15: 8 more silo overflows (total 3884)
Dec 8 02:38:01 evil /kernel: cy15: 10 more silo overflows (total 3894)
Dec 8 02:38:02 evil /kernel: cy15: 1 more silo overflow (total 3895)
Dec 8 02:38:03 evil /kernel: cy15: 1 more silo overflow (total 3896)
Dec 8 02:38:07 evil /kernel: cy15: 1 more silo overflow (total 3897)
This has crept in sometime during the past few days. Previously cy.c
would suffer silo overflows far more rarely (once every 10-30 seconds
on average) and overflows quantities were never over 2 or 3.
Response time generally has suffered, even with a very low load. Feels
like some kind of excessive context switching delay.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 08:12:01 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:11:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Mike Nemeth <mike@cathouse.vu.com>
Message-Id: <199612071611.JAA01679@cathouse.vu.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: looking for some help in writing *BSD device driver
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i am writing a device driver under netbsd, have asked for help in the
netbsd mailing lists, but could use some more, if freebsd and netbsd are
even sorta similar down at the device driver level. if there are netbsd/freebsd
hackers out there interested in answering a few questions, please drop
me a line. thanks!
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 09:54:10 1996
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To: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: MROUTING & gated
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Dec 96 01:23:44 PST."
<Pine.NEB.3.94.961207012131.28524A-100000@misery.sdf.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:53:15 PST
From: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
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In message <Pine.NEB.3.94.961207012131.28524A-100000@misery.sdf.com> you write:
> In order for gated to handle ospf properly, does MROUTING need to be
>enabled in the kernel?
No. MROUTING is for if you're a multicast router, not if you're using
a routing protocol that uses multicast.
> tcpdump reveals that gated sends ospf HELO requests to 224.0.0.5
The 224.0.0.x range of groups is not forwarded by multicast routers, so
even if you did enable MROUTING (and run a multicast routing daemon),
these packets would never get forwarded.
Bill
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 10:18:18 1996
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From: michael butler <imb@scgt.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199612071818.FAA08996@asstdc.scgt.oz.au>
Subject: Re: MROUTING & gated
In-Reply-To: <96Dec7.095323pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> from Bill Fenner at "Dec 7, 96 09:53:15 am"
To: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 05:18:03 +1100 (EST)
Cc: tom@sdf.com, hackers@freebsd.org
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Bill Fenner writes:
> The 224.0.0.x range of groups is not forwarded by multicast routers, so
> even if you did enable MROUTING (and run a multicast routing daemon),
> these packets would never get forwarded.
Isn't there an obscure (and IMHO unwise) case of an OSPF area which is
physically separated into two by a non-multicast router but joined by a
unicast tunnel ?
E.g I have two OSPF areas which I once thought of joining but which are
separated by Cisco 1003s (w/10.3 no OSPF :-() .. I decided that trying to
set up a tunnel between the two hosts concerned (or arguing with GATED about
it) was worse than the problem it might cure,
michael
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 10:21:27 1996
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From: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
To: fenner@parc.xerox.com, imb@scgt.oz.au
Subject: Re: MROUTING & gated
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, tom@sdf.com
Message-Id: <96Dec7.102041pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 10:20:41 PST
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Sorry, I don't know nuthin' 'bout OSPF (I think it might be a unicast
routing protocol =). I do know about multicast, though, and I know
that 224.0.0.x will not be forwarded. If there are OSPF exchanges that
should be forwarded by a multicast router, then they shouldn't use a
224.0.0.x group.
Bill
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 10:59:04 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612071823.TAA21408@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: looking for some help in writing *BSD device driver
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:23:54 +0100 (MET)
Cc: mike@cathouse.vu.com (Mike Nemeth)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <199612071611.JAA01679@cathouse.vu.com> from Mike Nemeth at "Dec 7, 96 09:11:07 am"
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As Mike Nemeth wrote:
> i am writing a device driver under netbsd, have asked for help in the
> netbsd mailing lists, but could use some more, if freebsd and netbsd are
> even sorta similar down at the device driver level. if there are netbsd/freebsd
> hackers out there interested in answering a few questions, please drop
> me a line. thanks!
Better ask a more detailed question first.
There are some differences between Free and NetBSD, but there are also
examples of drivers for both systems (pcvt, though a little rusty
these days, or the ahc SCSI driver come to mind).
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 11:32:45 1996
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Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 14:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FreeBSD 2.1: panic: vm_page_free: invalid wire count
To: hackers@freebsd.org
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One of my FreeBSD 2.1 machines died Friday. It got caught
in a panic - reboot loop with the following message:
panic: vm_page_free: invalid wire count
It seems to coincide with file-system check activity.
[The file system claimed to have been beat up around the same
time]
I tried to reinstall assuming the file system was toast, but
got the same message when the installer tried to create the
file-systems.
When I looked at the source code that was panicing it seemed
that someone was trying to free a page that someone else was
still referencing?
Does anyone have any idea what kind of error this is? I'm
guessing that its either a fault with the RAM or the processor
chip since the machine worked fine for a couple of months
before it died. I tried swapping the two memory modules,
but it didn't help, and I don't have any spare machines to
canabalize for other substitutions
Machine was a P5-166 with 32M RAM
---
thanks, G
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 11:57:28 1996
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To: Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.ed.ray.com
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.1: panic: vm_page_free: invalid wire count
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Dec 1996 14:18:00 EST."
<01ICQCYVD3KY003875@ZEUS.ED.RAY.COM>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 11:57:21 -0800
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>
> One of my FreeBSD 2.1 machines died Friday. It got caught
> in a panic - reboot loop with the following message:
>
> panic: vm_page_free: invalid wire count
>
> It seems to coincide with file-system check activity.
> [The file system claimed to have been beat up around the same
> time]
>
> I tried to reinstall assuming the file system was toast, but
> got the same message when the installer tried to create the
> file-systems.
>
> When I looked at the source code that was panicing it seemed
> that someone was trying to free a page that someone else was
> still referencing?
>
> Does anyone have any idea what kind of error this is? I'm
> guessing that its either a fault with the RAM or the processor
> chip since the machine worked fine for a couple of months
> before it died. I tried swapping the two memory modules,
> but it didn't help, and I don't have any spare machines to
> canabalize for other substitutions
>
> Machine was a P5-166 with 32M RAM
There was a bug in 2.1 that would cause this when doing certain physio. It
usually didn't show up with fsck, however, but probably could given the
right conditions. It was fixed in rev 1.17 of kern_physio.c:
----------------------------
revision 1.17
date: 1996/06/26 05:52:15; author: dyson; state: Exp; lines: +11 -6
Fix a problem that caused system crashes after physio. This problem
was due to non-aligned 64K transfers taking 17 pages. We currently
do not support >16 page transfers. The transfer is unfortunately truncated,
but since buffers are usually malloced, this is a problem only once in
a while. Savecore is a culprit, but tar/cpio usually aren't. This
is NOT the final fix (which is likely a bouncing scheme), but will at
least keep the system from crashing.
----------------------------
Your best solution is to upgrade to 2.1.6; we've fixed a lot of bugs like
this since 2.1.
-DG
David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 12:20:16 1996
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Reply-To: <SimsS@IBM.Net>
From: "Steve Sims" <SimsS@IBM.Net>
To: "John Utz" <spaz@u.washington.edu>, <StevenR362@aol.com>
Cc: <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: ppp+alias -auto &spurious dialups.
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 15:19:57 -0500
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OK, it's sendmail. What part of sendmail? If it's trying to run the
queues, change the interval to something better.
If it's doing DNS lookups (as it is wont to do) then set an appropriate
dfilter entry in /ppp.conf to prevent DNS from triggering a dial out).
As to your point of having sendmail enabled by default - this has been
debated unto death before. I abstain from voting this time around.
...sjs...
----------
From: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
To: StevenR362@aol.com
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: ppp+alias -auto &spurious dialups.
Date: Friday, December 06, 1996 1:47 AM
Yuparoo! It's sendmail!
it is turned on by default in /etc/sysconfig. go kill it! This bugged the
snot out of my wife for a year until i finally clued in. She'd pick up the
phone to call somebody and would be confronted with the happy modem song!
do we really need it to be on by default? Anybody likely to use it ( ie
ISP's ) would be smart enuf to turn it on and it is just a waste having it
run if it is not configured, right?
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 StevenR362@aol.com wrote:
>
> I compiled Charles Mott's aliasing ppp and it seems to be working just
dandy.
> A nice bit of code. Now I've decided to finally setup ppp for demand
> dialing.
> This also seems to be working fine with one minor exception. About every
> fifteen minutes the system dials up my ISP. The system is otherwise
> quiescent
> with no one logged on and nothing going on my Winblows 95 box either.
> I have named and routed disabled on my FreeBSD box. Now what do I have
to
> filter or disable to get it to stop dialing out four times an hour. From
> recent
> postings to hackers, I suspect sendmail is the culprit. Does anyone
else
> have
> ppp -auto working?
>
> Steve
>
>
****************************************************************************
***
John Utz spaz@u.washington.edu
idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 12:23:47 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612071924.UAA22017@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: ppp+alias -auto &spurious dialups.
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:24:58 +0100 (MET)
Cc: StevenR362@aol.com
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <961205234751_1286997857@emout01.mail.aol.com> from "StevenR362@aol.com" at "Dec 5, 96 11:47:52 pm"
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As StevenR362@aol.com wrote:
> Now what do I have to filter or disable to get it to stop dialing
> out four times an hour. From recent postings to hackers, I suspect
> sendmail is the culprit.
tcpdump your tun0 interface, to see which packets are triggering it.
I hope you've told sendmail to never use a nameserver (FEATURE(nodns)
and FEATURE(nocanonify)), as well as changed /etc/host.conf to prefer
hosts over bind? (A local nameserver is certainly less painful
anyway.)
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 12:24:17 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612071928.UAA22040@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: ppp+alias -auto &spurious dialups.
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:28:26 +0100 (MET)
Cc: spaz@u.washington.edu (John Utz)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.961205224308.19844A-100000@becker2.u.washington.edu> from John Utz at "Dec 5, 96 10:47:33 pm"
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As John Utz wrote:
> Yuparoo! It's sendmail!
> do we really need it to be on by default? Anybody likely to use it ( ie
> ISP's ) would be smart enuf to turn it on and it is just a waste having it
> run if it is not configured, right?
Sheesh. sendmail is our default MTA. It's not an ISP-only thing,
even local mail is being passed to sendmail:
j@uriah 1506% mail -s "Just nothing" j < /dev/null
Null message body; hope that's ok
j@uriah 1507% lastcomm | head -5
sendmail -F j ttyp3 0.00 secs Sat Dec 7 20:26
mail.local -S j __ 0.02 secs Sat Dec 7 20:26
sendmail -S j ttyp3 0.06 secs Sat Dec 7 20:26
sendmail -F j ttyp3 0.00 secs Sat Dec 7 20:26
mail - j ttyp3 0.02 secs Sat Dec 7 20:26
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 12:27:09 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612071921.UAA21995@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: possible bug in comconsole code...
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:21:26 +0100 (MET)
Cc: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.95.961206002559.19335E-100000@nike> from John-Mark Gurney at "Dec 6, 96 00:52:39 am"
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As John-Mark Gurney wrote:
> I tried some basic stuff like "echo blah > /dev/cuaa0" which just returned
> a single "b"... then I thought that the port might be closing before the
> data was sent... so a "(echo blah;sleep 1)> /dev/cuaa0" got the whole
> thing sent out...
It's perhaps possible that your terminal is sensible against modem
control signals? Though i've been using comconsole in a similar
environment, and only noticed that the output drops at the time the
sio devices are being probed. (Even this doesn't happen with a
modem-control insensitive terminal however.)
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 13:26:43 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:26:09 +0200 (EET)
From: Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net>
X-Sender: stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua
To: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: MROUTING & gated
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.94.961207012131.28524A-100000@misery.sdf.com>
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No. If I'm understanding correctly,
OSPF uses multicast only over directly connected links
and doesn't need these packets to be forwarded (I even think
OSPF will break if they _will_ be forwarded :)
It works without MROUTING anyway, that's from my experience,
not form the damn theory. :-)
On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Tom Samplonius wrote:
> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 01:23:44 -0800 (PST)
> From: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
> To: hackers@freebsd.org
> Subject: MROUTING & gated
>
>
> In order for gated to handle ospf properly, does MROUTING need to be
> enabled in the kernel?
>
> tcpdump reveals that gated sends ospf HELO requests to 224.0.0.5
>
> Tom
>
--
Best,
Andrew Stesin
nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 13:48:51 1996
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From: Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.ed.ray.com
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Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 16:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re[2]: FreeBSD 2.1: panic: vm_page_free: invalid wire count
To: dg@root.com
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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I don't understand why it would show up now, and only
on one of the 6 machines I have running the same verion
of FreeBSD.
Re the 2.1.6.1R version, has Walnut Creek got that on CDROM yet,
their page says 2.1.5 is the version they have...
thanks, G
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.1: panic: vm_page_free: invalid wire count
Author: dg@root.com at PMDF
Date: 12/7/96 2:57 PM
There was a bug in 2.1 that would cause this when doing certain physio. It
usually didn't show up with fsck, however, but probably could given the
right conditions. It was fixed in rev 1.17 of kern_physio.c:
----------------------------
revision 1.17
date: 1996/06/26 05:52:15; author: dyson; state: Exp; lines: +11 -6
Fix a problem that caused system crashes after physio. This problem
was due to non-aligned 64K transfers taking 17 pages. We currently
do not support >16 page transfers. The transfer is unfortunately truncated,
but since buffers are usually malloced, this is a problem only once in
a while. Savecore is a culprit, but tar/cpio usually aren't. This
is NOT the final fix (which is likely a bouncing scheme), but will at
least keep the system from crashing.
----------------------------
Your best solution is to upgrade to 2.1.6; we've fixed a lot of bugs like
this since 2.1.
-DG
David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 14:24:12 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:24:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeremy Sigmon <jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: ATAPI people are great!
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.961207172055.22546A-100000@www.hsc.wvu.edu>
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I just installed 2.2-ALPHA on my only machine with an ATAPI (IDE) CDROM
in it. The improvment over 2.1 is great. I used to get errors when
reading from large files and if I left it mounted for a while it
would error out and mostly unmount itself. No problems so far!
NEC <unknown model>
The machine predates me and my old boss scattered the machine documentation
everywhere so I don't know exactly which model it was, but it came with
a Gateway 2000 p5-60 (the machine).
One again great work!
======================================================================
Jeremy Sigmon B.S. ChE |
Web Developer of the Robert C. Byrd Health | Use
Sciences Center of West Virginia University | FreeBSD
WWW.HSC.WVU.EDU | Now
Graduate Student in Computer Science |
Office : 293-1060 |
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 14:24:44 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612072157.WAA23260@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 22:57:54 +0100 (MET)
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <199612051010.CAA28246@freefall.freebsd.org> from Darren Reed at "Dec 5, 96 09:09:47 pm"
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As Darren Reed wrote:
> > Is there a comparable program for freebsd?
>
> Be nice if there was an option for it to output (immeadiately) to stdout
> rather than ktrace.out.
I'm afraid that the kernel risks to stall if you get it to write the
trace into a FIFO. But perhaps it's not too difficult to have
kdump(8) doing some `tail -f' like magic? This should effectively
yield you a similar behaviour.
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 14:25:15 1996
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From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Message-Id: <199612072204.XAA23284@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Subject: Re: trying to upgrade to 2.2
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:04:18 +0100 (MET)
Cc: thompson@znet.com
Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
In-Reply-To: <199612062129.NAA01673@squirrel.tgsoft.com> from mark thompson at "Dec 6, 96 01:29:59 pm"
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As mark thompson wrote:
> My question is:
> 1) is '../../contrib' a new idea in 2.2?
Yes. Basically, /usr/src/contrib contains the unmodified original
distribution files (mostly), while local changes are maintained where
they belong to. The make process never descends into the `contrib'
directory, but the files there are rather being used by .PATH and
-I../../contrib/<something> stuff in the real Makefiles.
> 2) is something supposed to override these and it isn't being set up?
I cannot parse this, sorry.
> 3) is something faulty with my procedure?
Probably. :)
> =================
> 4) I notice that in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs just about all of the
> source has been moved to Attic, and are not tagged for 2.2. Are the
> gnu things being moved out to ports?
They have been moved to `contrib':
j@uriah 1529% ls $CVSROOT/src/contrib/
/home/ncvs/src/contrib:
bind/ gcc/ groff/ libpcap/ tcpdump/
bison/ gdb/ libg++/ nvi/ traceroute/
cvs/ gperf/ libgmp/ tcl/
^^^^
Of course, not exactly _all_ of /usr/src/gnu/usr/bin has been moved
out into the Attic. The Makefile skeleton remains:
j@uriah 1530% ls /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs
/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs:
contrib/ cvs/ doc/ Makefile tools/
CVS/ cvsbug/ lib/ Makefile.inc
That's the part that finally uses the source code from contrib/cvs.
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 14:54:48 1996
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199612072254.RAA12987@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: FreeBSD 2.1: panic: vm_page_free: invalid wire count
To: Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.ed.ray.com
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:54:31 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dg@root.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <01ICQHQ35F4Y003FF8@ZEUS.ED.RAY.COM> from "Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.ed.ray.com" at Dec 7, 96 04:32:00 pm
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> I don't understand why it would show up now, and only
> on one of the 6 machines I have running the same verion
> of FreeBSD.
>
> Re the 2.1.6.1R version, has Walnut Creek got that on CDROM yet,
> their page says 2.1.5 is the version they have...
>
One of the reasons that bugs like this occur at all is that they
are not always reproduceable. No matter how careful I am when I
write or port code, it appears that bugs sometimes appear. When
testing, if I don't encounter it, I sometimes assume that there
is none, and commit it to the system. You have encountered such
a bug.
It is likely that a few people had encountered it during testing, but
maybe not? You are seeing the same syndrome that I see when I modify
or write kernel code. It can appear to work perfectly for 99% of the
people 99% of the time, but when the bug is found, it is amazing that
the code ever worked at all!
John
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 15:17:47 1996
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Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 15:16:57 -0800
To: hackers@freebsd.org
From: Jason Fesler <jfesler@calweb.com>
Subject: Apache and huge numbers of IP's..
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Anyone have a suggestion? I'm trying create a config file
with 400+ domains, each with two IP addresses (I'm in the middle
of relocating ip services thanks to NCIT/PAGESAT flaking and filing).
Once I have more than about 256 addresses (roughly) :-), I am
getting this in my logs, and attempts to connect fail (they
take the connection, but give no response at all):
[Sat Dec 7 12:09:48 1996] select: (listen): Invalid argument
[Sat Dec 7 12:09:48 1996] select: (listen): Invalid argument
[Sat Dec 7 12:09:48 1996] select: (listen): Invalid argument
One suggestion was a failure of the select(2) call failing on
file handles over 256. Anyone have any suggestions on how to
correct the problem, or at least give a shot at raising this
maximum up? I'd like to ideally put 500 domains on this box :( ..
--
Jason Fesler jfesler@calweb.com Internic: 'whois jf319'
Admin, CalWeb Internet Services http://www.calweb.com
Junk email returned, in bulk, back to sender; w/copies to all postmasters.
You got junk mail problems? Use Eudora Pro, MSIE's mail, or 'man procmail'.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 16:10:05 1996
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From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
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In article <199612071928.UAA22040@uriah.heep.sax.de>,
J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de> wrote:
>Sheesh. sendmail is our default MTA. It's not an ISP-only thing,
>even local mail is being passed to sendmail:
Yeh, but that'll work without the "sendmail -bd". All that does is provide
SMTP service. If you're getting your mail via POP3 or something you don't
need a sendmail daemon running.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 16:35:09 1996
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From: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
Message-Id: <199612080034.RAA27465@hemi.com>
Subject: Re: bug in 2.2-alpha loopback (?)
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:34:49 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612071213.NAA18370@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Dec 7, 96 01:13:18 pm
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> I can't reproduce this with your test program:
>
> j@uriah 1455% ./bar
> Waiting for client on port 2000
> Attention, read() returned 0.
Sorry, I wasn't very careful considering all the variables. This
might be a "telnet" problem instead of a loop interface problem
(My 2.2 machine is located remotely, so that's why I noticed it.)
I have been telnetting into the 2.2 machine, "telnet localhost
2000", then close the first telnet.
The problem occurs when I telnet into a FreeBSD machine, _then_
telnet again to port 2000, issue the escape character, and
close the connection.
So, we have:
Machine A ---telnet---> Machine B ---telnet---> Machine C
Where the program is running on Machine C, and Machine B is
a FreeBSD 2.1 or 2.2 system. Machine B's telnet gets really
confused when we close Machine A's telnet.
Please try:
1. Run the program
2. From another window / virtual terminal, "telnet localhost",
log back in, then "telnet localhost 2000", issue ctrl-],
and quit (or close).
I changed my program to count how many \004s it receives, and
on my machines I get:
./read
Waiting for client on port 2000
read() returned 0, exiting.
Received 278 EOF (CTRL-D) markers.
(The exact number of CTRL-Ds it receives varies.) For clarity,
the program does the following:
nCtrl = 0;
for (c = 0; c < 1000 ; c++) {
ret=read (fd, &ch, 1);
if (ret == 0) {
printf ("read() returned 0, exiting.\n");
break;
}
if (ch == 4)
++nCtrl;
}
printf ("Received %d EOF (CTRL-D) markers.\n", nCtrl);
(It doesn't make a difference if recv() is used instead of read().)
The problem does not occur if I replace the middle machine with
a non-FreeBSD machine (well, I've only tried Solaris 2.5.1,
VMS V5.5-2, and various Cisco boxes.) It doesn't matter what
O/S machine A or machine C is running.
Hmm, are programs supposed to check for an EOF in the input
stream ?
Thanks,
-Ade
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 16:40:56 1996
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From: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
Message-Id: <199612080040.RAA27657@hemi.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.1: panic: vm_page_free: invalid wire count
To: Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.ed.ray.com
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:40:49 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <01ICQCYVD3KY003875@ZEUS.ED.RAY.COM> from "Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.ed.ray.com" at Dec 7, 96 02:18:00 pm
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> One of my FreeBSD 2.1 machines died Friday. It got caught
> in a panic - reboot loop with the following message:
>
> panic: vm_page_free: invalid wire count
Probably either bad RAM or bad cache. Try swapping your RAM
and disabling cache.
Regards,
-Ade Barkah
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 17:50:22 1996
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 12:50:03 +1100 (EDT)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612072157.WAA23260@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Dec 7, 96 10:57:54 pm
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In some mail from J Wunsch, sie said:
>
> As Darren Reed wrote:
>
> > > Is there a comparable program for freebsd?
> >
> > Be nice if there was an option for it to output (immeadiately) to stdout
> > rather than ktrace.out.
>
> I'm afraid that the kernel risks to stall if you get it to write the
> trace into a FIFO. But perhaps it's not too difficult to have
> kdump(8) doing some `tail -f' like magic? This should effectively
> yield you a similar behaviour.
hmpf.
At the last Usenix Security Symposium, there was an award winning paper
done by a student on a program which had the ability to control the
success/failure of system calls made by another program. Idea being,
you use this with Java applets or any other program you don't trust,
giving yourself a way to control what files it opens, sockets, etc.
This was possible because of Solaris's implementation of /proc and
its interface available for ptrace(2) which allows for the process
intercepting the system call (via ptrace) to return a value for the
system call (rather than allowing the system call to complete and return
a value), thus being able to force failures. i.e. your monitoring program
might catch all chdir's and open's, and thus be able to detect when
something tries to open /etc/passwd (you can do a stat() on the pathname
being passed to open() and compare that with doing a stat() on /etc/pased)
and return -1 to that program rather than let the system call go on and
succeed.
Whilst we have ktrace(2) which works with ktrace(1) and kdump(2), there is
no ptrace(2) and it would appear that there are siginicant differences
between ptrace and ktrace that perhaps ptrace should be implemented ?
I image an implementation of ptrace(2) would allow for a truss-like version
on ktrace(1).
Darren
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 18:02:16 1996
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From: michael butler <imb@scgt.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199612080202.NAA26188@asstdc.scgt.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Apache and huge numbers of IP's..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961207151655.007d7e90@pop.calweb.com> from Jason Fesler at "Dec 7, 96 03:16:57 pm"
To: jfesler@calweb.com (Jason Fesler)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:01:59 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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Jason Fesler writes:
> Anyone have a suggestion? I'm trying create a config file
> with 400+ domains, each with two IP addresses (I'm in the middle
> of relocating ip services thanks to NCIT/PAGESAT flaking and filing).
[ .. ]
> One suggestion was a failure of the select(2) call failing on
> file handles over 256. Anyone have any suggestions on how to
> correct the problem, or at least give a shot at raising this
> maximum up? I'd like to ideally put 500 domains on this box :( ..
We meet again Jason :-)
The number of file handles available is related to the maxusers config
parameter. If you wish to alter that without affecting the other table
sizes, you can add something like this to your config file ..
options "CHILD_MAX=512"
options "OPEN_MAX=512"
.. numbers should be tweaked as required. However, since the sockets the
server has open in the quiescent state are only used to listen on, as
soon as a request occurs more will be needed. You have to identify the
high-water mark.
Personally, with that many domains, I'd be inclined to use multiple boxes to
divide the load,
michael
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 18:42:59 1996
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From: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
Message-Id: <199612080242.TAA01291@hemi.com>
Subject: Re: Apache and huge numbers of IP's..
To: imb@scgt.oz.au (michael butler)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:42:48 -0700 (MST)
Cc: jfesler@calweb.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612080202.NAA26188@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> from "michael butler" at Dec 8, 96 01:01:59 pm
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Michael Butler wrote:
> Jason Fesler writes:
>
> > Anyone have a suggestion? I'm trying create a config file
> > with 400+ domains, each with two IP addresses (I'm in the middle
> > of relocating ip services thanks to NCIT/PAGESAT flaking and filing).
> [ .. ]
>
> The number of file handles available is related to the maxusers config
> parameter. If you wish to alter that without affecting the other table
> sizes, you can add something like this to your config file ..
>
> options "CHILD_MAX=512"
> options "OPEN_MAX=512"
Is this sufficient ? You still have:
#ifndef FD_SETSIZE
#define FD_SETSIZE 256
#endif
in /usr/include/sys/types.h. FD_SETSIZE ultimately limits the
number of selector bits select() can use.
Regards,
-Ade
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Inet: mbarkah@hemi.com - HEMISPHERE ONLINE - <http://www.hemi.com/>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 19:39:00 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:38:52 -0800
From: Sean Eric Fagan <sef@Kithrup.COM>
Message-Id: <199612080338.TAA10302@kithrup.com>
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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>Whilst we have ktrace(2) which works with ktrace(1) and kdump(2), there is
>no ptrace(2)
Uh... how do you think gdb talks to processes? It uses ptrace().
Our ptrace is not sufficient to do syscall stops, though. I have changes to
procfs and the rest of the kernel that do allow it, however, and I've
written an EP version of truss that uses it.
Sean.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 19:47:00 1996
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199612080346.UAA00214@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: signal stack?
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers),
freebsd-ports@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD ports)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:46:54 -0700 (MST)
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Greetings!
I'm digging through the gcl port and a bit stumped by
the role of sigaltstack(2) and the mechanisms by which the
stack is created and manipulated. Some annotated code fragments...
double estack_buf[SIG_STACK_SIZE];
Presumably, this is the actual stack space. Apparently, it is
defined as an array of doubles (instead of chars) to force
alignment on 8 byte boundaries (or so the commentary indicates)?
static sigaltstack estack;
estack.ss_sp = estack_buf;
Aside from adding a cast to (char *) to silence pointer warning, why do
ports for *other* OS's (e.g., NetBSD) explicitly reference the *end* of the
"stack" in this assignment? (e.g., &estack_buf[SIG_STACK_SIZE-1])
The sigaltstack(2) man page seems to imply that this is unnecessary.
Perhaps stacks are handled in a more rudimentary form in some of these
other ports?
estack.ss_size = SIGSTKSZ;
Shouldn't this be sizeof(estack_buf)? Or, SIGSTKSZ * sizeof(double)
as a hack...?
estack.ss_flags = 0;
if (sigaltstack(&estack, (struct sigaltstack *)0) < 0)...
Sorry if these seem like no-brainers. Maybe Santa will bring
me a brain for XMAS! :>
Thanx!
--don
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 20:00:56 1996
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From: cau@cc.gatech.edu (Carlos Ugarte)
Message-Id: <199612080358.WAA27217@oscar.cc.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Amd (K5) 586 /133
To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 22:58:52 -0500 (EST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612062305.AAA25942@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from "Christoph Kukulies" at Dec 7, 96 00:05:55 am
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> I bought an A-Star (i430VX) mainboard and put in an Amd (K5) 133 MHz CPU.
> dmesg tells me 100.23 MHz. Who's cheating?
No one, really. I'm pretty sure AMD uses a similar "rating"
scale to Cyrix - the particular chip you have is called something
like a K5-PR133, where PR stands for Pentium Rating (or something
similar). It actually runs at 100 MHz, but its performance was
found to be "equivalent" to a Pentium 133 MHz.
How does it run? Any problems?
Carlos
--
Carlos A. Ugarte cau@cc.gatech.edu
Author of PageMage, a virtual desktop util for OS/2
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/people/home/cau/
If you understand what you're doing, you are not learning anything
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 20:08:05 1996
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
To: sef@Kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 15:07:36 +1100 (EDT)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de,
freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199612080338.TAA10302@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Dec 7, 96 07:38:52 pm
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In some mail from Sean Eric Fagan, sie said:
>
> >Whilst we have ktrace(2) which works with ktrace(1) and kdump(2), there is
> >no ptrace(2)
>
> Uh... how do you think gdb talks to processes? It uses ptrace().
>
> Our ptrace is not sufficient to do syscall stops, though. I have changes to
> procfs and the rest of the kernel that do allow it, however, and I've
> written an EP version of truss that uses it.
Are these going to be integrated into 3.0 ?
Darren
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 20:08:17 1996
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To: Ade Barkah <mbarkah@hemi.com>
cc: imb@scgt.oz.au (michael butler), jfesler@calweb.com, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Apache and huge numbers of IP's..
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Dec 1996 19:42:48 MST."
<199612080242.TAA01291@hemi.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 21:08:06 -0700
From: Dave Andersen <angio@aros.net>
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> > options "CHILD_MAX=512"
> > options "OPEN_MAX=512"
>
> Is this sufficient ? You still have:
>
> #ifndef FD_SETSIZE
> #define FD_SETSIZE 256
> #endif
>
> in /usr/include/sys/types.h. FD_SETSIZE ultimately limits the
At the beginning of your program, before ALL other #includes, say:
#define FD_SETSIZE 512
-Dave
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 20:09:10 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:09:02 -0800
From: Sean Eric Fagan <sef@Kithrup.COM>
Message-Id: <199612080409.UAA11135@kithrup.com>
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au
Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
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>Are these going to be integrated into 3.0 ?
It is lower on my list than the vm86 stuff, but since I have been stuck on
that, I should probably work on something else for a while ;).
Sean.
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 20:33:29 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:33:11 -0800
From: Sean Eric Fagan <sef@Kithrup.COM>
Message-Id: <199612080433.UAA11953@kithrup.com>
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au
Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
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Here, by the way, are my old diffs. I haven't touched them in a while, but
they did work, to a degree anyway ;).
I'm not completely happy with the interface, which is why I hadn't released
them before.
I recently posted the main part of my EP truss program to the net, to show
what it would look like.
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/i386/i386/procfs_machdep.c ./i386/i386/procfs_machdep.c
--- /usr/src/sys/i386/i386/procfs_machdep.c Thu Mar 16 10:11:29 1995
+++ ./i386/i386/procfs_machdep.c Mon Jul 17 17:46:30 1995
@@ -78,7 +78,7 @@
#include <machine/reg.h>
#include <machine/frame.h>
#include <machine/md_var.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
int
procfs_read_regs(p, regs)
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/i386/i386/trap.c ./i386/i386/trap.c
--- /usr/src/sys/i386/i386/trap.c Sun Jun 4 17:22:04 1995
+++ ./i386/i386/trap.c Fri May 26 10:54:41 1995
@@ -825,6 +825,8 @@
rval[0] = 0;
rval[1] = frame.tf_edx;
+ STOPEVENT (p, S_SCE, callp->sy_narg);
+
error = (*callp->sy_call)(p, args, rval);
switch (error) {
@@ -860,6 +862,8 @@
}
userret(p, &frame, sticks);
+
+ STOPEVENT (p, S_SCX, error);
#ifdef KTRACE
if (KTRPOINT(p, KTR_SYSRET))
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_exec.c ./kern/kern_exec.c
--- /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_exec.c Tue May 30 01:05:24 1995
+++ ./kern/kern_exec.c Fri May 26 10:54:42 1995
@@ -286,6 +286,8 @@
* If tracing the process, trap to debugger so breakpoints
* can be set before the program executes.
*/
+ STOPEVENT(p, S_EXEC, 0);
+
if (p->p_flag & P_TRACED)
psignal(p, SIGTRAP);
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_exit.c ./kern/kern_exit.c
--- /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_exit.c Tue May 30 01:05:25 1995
+++ ./kern/kern_exit.c Thu Jul 20 15:18:57 1995
@@ -191,6 +191,9 @@
if (p->p_tracep)
vrele(p->p_tracep);
#endif
+
+ STOPEVENT(p, S_EXIT, rv);
+
/*
* Remove proc from allproc queue and pidhash chain.
* Place onto zombproc. Unlink from parent's child list.
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_fork.c ./kern/kern_fork.c
--- /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_fork.c Tue May 30 01:05:27 1995
+++ ./kern/kern_fork.c Mon Jul 17 16:48:56 1995
@@ -205,6 +205,8 @@
bcopy(&p1->p_startcopy, &p2->p_startcopy,
(unsigned) ((caddr_t)&p2->p_endcopy - (caddr_t)&p2->p_startcopy));
+ p2->p_stops = p2->p_step = 0; /* By default, no stops */
+
/*
* Duplicate sub-structures as needed.
* Increase reference counts on shared objects.
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/kern/sys_generic.c ./kern/sys_generic.c
--- /usr/src/sys/kern/sys_generic.c Tue May 30 01:05:56 1995
+++ ./kern/sys_generic.c Wed Jul 19 19:33:58 1995
@@ -405,8 +405,10 @@
* copied to/from the user's address space.
*/
size = IOCPARM_LEN(com);
- if (size > IOCPARM_MAX)
+ if (size > IOCPARM_MAX) {
+printf ("%s(%d): size = %d, IOCPARM_MAX = %d\n", __FILE__, __LINE__, size, IOCPARM_MAX);
return (ENOTTY);
+ }
memp = NULL;
#ifdef COMPAT_IBCS2
if (size + IBCS2_RETVAL_SIZE > sizeof (stkbuf)) {
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/kern/sys_process.c ./kern/sys_process.c
--- /usr/src/sys/kern/sys_process.c Tue May 30 01:05:58 1995
+++ ./kern/sys_process.c Thu Jul 20 10:13:54 1995
@@ -356,3 +356,20 @@
{
return 1;
}
+
+void
+stopevent(p, event, val)
+ struct proc *p;
+ int event;
+ int val;
+{
+
+ p->p_step = 1;
+ do {
+ p->p_xstat = val;
+ p->p_stype = event; /* Why we stopped */
+ p->p_stat = SSTOP;
+ wakeup(&p->p_stat);
+ mi_switch();
+ } while ((p->p_stops & event) && p->p_step);
+}
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_vnops.c ./kern/vfs_vnops.c
--- /usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_vnops.c Tue May 30 01:06:35 1995
+++ ./kern/vfs_vnops.c Wed Jul 19 20:05:37 1995
@@ -445,7 +445,9 @@
/* fall into ... */
default:
+#if 0
return (ENOTTY);
+#endif
case VFIFO:
case VCHR:
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs.h ./miscfs/procfs/procfs.h
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs.h Wed May 24 18:35:22 1995
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs.h Wed Dec 31 16:00:00 1969
@@ -1,188 +0,0 @@
-/*
- * Copyright (c) 1993 Jan-Simon Pendry
- * Copyright (c) 1993
- * The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
- *
- * This code is derived from software contributed to Berkeley by
- * Jan-Simon Pendry.
- *
- * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
- * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
- * are met:
- * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
- * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
- * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
- * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
- * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
- * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software
- * must display the following acknowledgement:
- * This product includes software developed by the University of
- * California, Berkeley and its contributors.
- * 4. Neither the name of the University nor the names of its contributors
- * may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software
- * without specific prior written permission.
- *
- * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE REGENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND
- * ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
- * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
- * ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE
- * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL
- * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS
- * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
- * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT
- * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
- * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
- * SUCH DAMAGE.
- *
- * @(#)procfs.h 8.6 (Berkeley) 2/3/94
- *
- * procfs.h,v 1.5 1995/05/25 01:35:22 davidg Exp
- */
-
-/*
- * The different types of node in a procfs filesystem
- */
-typedef enum {
- Proot, /* the filesystem root */
- Pproc, /* a process-specific sub-directory */
- Pfile, /* the executable file */
- Pmem, /* the process's memory image */
- Pregs, /* the process's register set */
- Pfpregs, /* the process's FP register set */
- Pctl, /* process control */
- Pstatus, /* process status */
- Pnote, /* process notifier */
- Pnotepg /* process group notifier */
-} pfstype;
-
-/*
- * control data for the proc file system.
- */
-struct pfsnode {
- struct pfsnode *pfs_next; /* next on list */
- struct vnode *pfs_vnode; /* vnode associated with this pfsnode */
- pfstype pfs_type; /* type of procfs node */
- pid_t pfs_pid; /* associated process */
- u_short pfs_mode; /* mode bits for stat() */
- u_long pfs_flags; /* open flags */
- u_long pfs_fileno; /* unique file id */
-};
-
-#define PROCFS_NOTELEN 64 /* max length of a note (/proc/$pid/note) */
-#define PROCFS_CTLLEN 8 /* max length of a ctl msg (/proc/$pid/ctl */
-
-/*
- * Kernel stuff follows
- */
-#ifdef KERNEL
-#define CNEQ(cnp, s, len) \
- ((cnp)->cn_namelen == (len) && \
- (bcmp((s), (cnp)->cn_nameptr, (len)) == 0))
-
-#define KMEM_GROUP 2
-/*
- * Format of a directory entry in /proc, ...
- * This must map onto struct dirent (see <dirent.h>)
- */
-#define PROCFS_NAMELEN 8
-struct pfsdent {
- u_long d_fileno;
- u_short d_reclen;
- u_char d_type;
- u_char d_namlen;
- char d_name[PROCFS_NAMELEN];
-};
-#define UIO_MX sizeof(struct pfsdent)
-#define PROCFS_FILENO(pid, type) \
- (((type) == Proot) ? \
- 2 : \
- ((((pid)+1) << 3) + ((int) (type))))
-
-/*
- * Convert between pfsnode vnode
- */
-#define VTOPFS(vp) ((struct pfsnode *)(vp)->v_data)
-#define PFSTOV(pfs) ((pfs)->pfs_vnode)
-
-typedef struct vfs_namemap vfs_namemap_t;
-struct vfs_namemap {
- const char *nm_name;
- int nm_val;
-};
-
-extern int vfs_getuserstr __P((struct uio *, char *, int *));
-extern vfs_namemap_t *vfs_findname __P((vfs_namemap_t *, char *, int));
-
-/* <machine/reg.h> */
-struct reg;
-struct fpreg;
-
-#define PFIND(pid) ((pid) ? pfind(pid) : &proc0)
-extern int procfs_freevp __P((struct vnode *));
-extern int procfs_allocvp __P((struct mount *, struct vnode **, long, pfstype));
-extern struct vnode *procfs_findtextvp __P((struct proc *));
-extern int procfs_sstep __P((struct proc *));
-extern void procfs_fix_sstep __P((struct proc *));
-extern int procfs_read_regs __P((struct proc *, struct reg *));
-extern int procfs_write_regs __P((struct proc *, struct reg *));
-extern int procfs_read_fpregs __P((struct proc *, struct fpreg *));
-extern int procfs_write_fpregs __P((struct proc *, struct fpreg *));
-extern int procfs_donote __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
-extern int procfs_doregs __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
-extern int procfs_dofpregs __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
-extern int procfs_domem __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
-extern int procfs_doctl __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
-extern int procfs_dostatus __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
-
-#define PROCFS_LOCKED 0x01
-#define PROCFS_WANT 0x02
-
-extern int (**procfs_vnodeop_p)();
-extern struct vfsops procfs_vfsops;
-
-int procfs_root __P((struct mount *, struct vnode **));
-
-/*
- * Prototypes for procfs vnode ops
- */
-int procfs_badop(); /* varargs */
-int procfs_rw __P((struct vop_read_args *));
-int procfs_lookup __P((struct vop_lookup_args *));
-#define procfs_create ((int (*) __P((struct vop_create_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_mknod ((int (*) __P((struct vop_mknod_args *))) procfs_badop)
-int procfs_open __P((struct vop_open_args *));
-int procfs_close __P((struct vop_close_args *));
-int procfs_access __P((struct vop_access_args *));
-int procfs_getattr __P((struct vop_getattr_args *));
-int procfs_setattr __P((struct vop_setattr_args *));
-#define procfs_read procfs_rw
-#define procfs_write procfs_rw
-int procfs_ioctl __P((struct vop_ioctl_args *));
-#define procfs_select ((int (*) __P((struct vop_select_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_mmap ((int (*) __P((struct vop_mmap_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_fsync ((int (*) __P((struct vop_fsync_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_seek ((int (*) __P((struct vop_seek_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_remove ((int (*) __P((struct vop_remove_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_link ((int (*) __P((struct vop_link_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_rename ((int (*) __P((struct vop_rename_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_mkdir ((int (*) __P((struct vop_mkdir_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_rmdir ((int (*) __P((struct vop_rmdir_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_symlink ((int (*) __P((struct vop_symlink_args *))) procfs_badop)
-int procfs_readdir __P((struct vop_readdir_args *));
-#define procfs_readlink ((int (*) __P((struct vop_readlink_args *))) procfs_badop)
-int procfs_abortop __P((struct vop_abortop_args *));
-int procfs_inactive __P((struct vop_inactive_args *));
-int procfs_reclaim __P((struct vop_reclaim_args *));
-#define procfs_lock ((int (*) __P((struct vop_lock_args *))) nullop)
-#define procfs_unlock ((int (*) __P((struct vop_unlock_args *))) nullop)
-#define procfs_bmap ((int (*) __P((struct vop_bmap_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_strategy ((int (*) __P((struct vop_strategy_args *))) procfs_badop)
-int procfs_print __P((struct vop_print_args *));
-#define procfs_islocked ((int (*) __P((struct vop_islocked_args *))) nullop)
-#define procfs_advlock ((int (*) __P((struct vop_advlock_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_blkatoff ((int (*) __P((struct vop_blkatoff_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_valloc ((int (*) __P((struct vop_valloc_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_vfree ((int (*) __P((struct vop_vfree_args *))) nullop)
-#define procfs_truncate ((int (*) __P((struct vop_truncate_args *))) procfs_badop)
-#define procfs_update ((int (*) __P((struct vop_update_args *))) nullop)
-#endif /* KERNEL */
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_ctl.c ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_ctl.c
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_ctl.c Thu Mar 16 10:13:46 1995
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_ctl.c Mon Jul 17 17:17:00 1995
@@ -55,7 +55,7 @@
#include <vm/vm.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
/*
* True iff process (p) is in trace wait state
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_fpregs.c ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_fpregs.c
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_fpregs.c Tue Aug 2 00:45:12 1994
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_fpregs.c Mon Jul 17 17:16:56 1995
@@ -46,7 +46,7 @@
#include <sys/proc.h>
#include <sys/vnode.h>
#include <machine/reg.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
int
procfs_dofpregs(curp, p, pfs, uio)
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_mem.c ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_mem.c
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_mem.c Tue May 30 01:07:09 1995
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_mem.c Mon Jul 17 17:16:52 1995
@@ -51,7 +51,7 @@
#include <sys/kernel.h>
#include <sys/proc.h>
#include <sys/vnode.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
#include <vm/vm.h>
#include <vm/vm_kern.h>
#include <vm/vm_page.h>
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_note.c ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_note.c
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_note.c Tue Aug 2 00:45:16 1994
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_note.c Mon Jul 17 17:16:49 1995
@@ -46,7 +46,7 @@
#include <sys/proc.h>
#include <sys/vnode.h>
#include <sys/signal.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
int
procfs_donote(curp, p, pfs, uio)
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_regs.c ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_regs.c
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_regs.c Tue Aug 2 00:45:18 1994
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_regs.c Mon Jul 17 17:16:45 1995
@@ -46,7 +46,7 @@
#include <sys/proc.h>
#include <sys/vnode.h>
#include <machine/reg.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
int
procfs_doregs(curp, p, pfs, uio)
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_status.c ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_status.c
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_status.c Tue May 30 01:07:10 1995
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_status.c Mon Jul 17 17:16:41 1995
@@ -49,7 +49,7 @@
#include <sys/tty.h>
#include <sys/resource.h>
#include <sys/resourcevar.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
int
procfs_dostatus(curp, p, pfs, uio)
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_subr.c ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_subr.c
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_subr.c Tue May 30 01:07:11 1995
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_subr.c Mon Jul 17 17:16:34 1995
@@ -46,7 +46,7 @@
#include <sys/proc.h>
#include <sys/vnode.h>
#include <sys/malloc.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
static struct pfsnode *pfshead;
static int pfsvplock;
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_vfsops.c ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_vfsops.c
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_vfsops.c Wed May 24 18:35:23 1995
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_vfsops.c Wed Jul 19 18:17:29 1995
@@ -53,7 +53,7 @@
#include <sys/mount.h>
#include <sys/signalvar.h>
#include <sys/vnode.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
#include <vm/vm.h> /* for PAGE_SIZE */
int procfs_statfs __P((struct mount *, struct statfs *, struct proc *));
@@ -73,6 +73,8 @@
struct proc *p;
{
u_int size;
+
+printf ("%s(%d): procfs_mount()\n", __FILE__, __LINE__);
if (UIO_MX & (UIO_MX-1)) {
log(LOG_ERR, "procfs: invalid directory entry size\n");
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_vnops.c ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_vnops.c
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_vnops.c Tue May 30 01:07:13 1995
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfs_vnops.c Thu Jul 20 16:59:14 1995
@@ -54,7 +54,8 @@
#include <sys/malloc.h>
#include <sys/dirent.h>
#include <sys/resourcevar.h>
-#include <miscfs/procfs/procfs.h>
+#include <sys/procfs.h> /* procfs ioctl's */
+#include <miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h>
#include <vm/vm.h> /* for PAGE_SIZE */
/*
@@ -109,6 +110,8 @@
{
struct pfsnode *pfs = VTOPFS(ap->a_vp);
+/*printf ("%s(%d)\n", __FILE__, __LINE__); */
+
switch (pfs->pfs_type) {
case Pmem:
if (PFIND(pfs->pfs_pid) == 0)
@@ -164,8 +167,52 @@
procfs_ioctl(ap)
struct vop_ioctl_args *ap;
{
+ struct pfsnode *pfs = VTOPFS(ap->a_vp);
+ struct proc *procp;
+ int error;
+ int signo;
+ struct procfs_status *psp;
+
+ procp = pfind (pfs->pfs_pid);
+ if (procp == NULL) {
+ return ENOTTY;
+ }
+ switch (ap->a_command) {
+ case PIOCEVBIS:
+ procp->p_stops |= *(unsigned int*)ap->a_data;
+ break;
+ case PIOCEVBIC:
+ procp->p_stops &= *(unsigned int*)ap->a_data;
+ break;
+ case PIOCGEVFLAG:
+ *(int*)ap->a_data = procp->p_stops;
+ break;
+ case PIOCWAIT:
+ psp = (struct procfs_status *)ap->a_data;
+ while (procp->p_stat != SSTOP) {
+ error = tsleep(&procp->p_stat, PZERO + 1, "stopwait", 0);
+ if (error)
+ return error;
+ }
+ psp->state = 1; /* stopped */
+ psp->why = procp->p_stype; /* why it stopped */
+ psp->val = procp->p_xstat; /* any extra information */
+ break;
+ case PIOCCONT:
+ signo = *(int *)ap->a_data;
+ if (procp->p_stat == SSTOP) {
+ procp->p_step = 0;
+ if (signo)
+ procp->p_xstat = signo;
+ setrunnable(procp);
+ } else
+ return EINVAL;
+ break;
+ default:
+ return EINVAL;
+ }
+ return 0;
- return (ENOTTY);
}
/*
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h ./miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h
--- /usr/src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h Wed Dec 31 16:00:00 1969
+++ ./miscfs/procfs/procfsvar.h Fri May 26 10:48:13 1995
@@ -0,0 +1,188 @@
+/*
+ * Copyright (c) 1993 Jan-Simon Pendry
+ * Copyright (c) 1993
+ * The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
+ *
+ * This code is derived from software contributed to Berkeley by
+ * Jan-Simon Pendry.
+ *
+ * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
+ * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
+ * are met:
+ * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
+ * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
+ * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
+ * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
+ * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
+ * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software
+ * must display the following acknowledgement:
+ * This product includes software developed by the University of
+ * California, Berkeley and its contributors.
+ * 4. Neither the name of the University nor the names of its contributors
+ * may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software
+ * without specific prior written permission.
+ *
+ * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE REGENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND
+ * ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
+ * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
+ * ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE
+ * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL
+ * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS
+ * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
+ * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT
+ * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
+ * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
+ * SUCH DAMAGE.
+ *
+ * @(#)procfs.h 8.6 (Berkeley) 2/3/94
+ *
+ * procfs.h,v 1.5 1995/05/25 01:35:22 davidg Exp
+ */
+
+/*
+ * The different types of node in a procfs filesystem
+ */
+typedef enum {
+ Proot, /* the filesystem root */
+ Pproc, /* a process-specific sub-directory */
+ Pfile, /* the executable file */
+ Pmem, /* the process's memory image */
+ Pregs, /* the process's register set */
+ Pfpregs, /* the process's FP register set */
+ Pctl, /* process control */
+ Pstatus, /* process status */
+ Pnote, /* process notifier */
+ Pnotepg /* process group notifier */
+} pfstype;
+
+/*
+ * control data for the proc file system.
+ */
+struct pfsnode {
+ struct pfsnode *pfs_next; /* next on list */
+ struct vnode *pfs_vnode; /* vnode associated with this pfsnode */
+ pfstype pfs_type; /* type of procfs node */
+ pid_t pfs_pid; /* associated process */
+ u_short pfs_mode; /* mode bits for stat() */
+ u_long pfs_flags; /* open flags */
+ u_long pfs_fileno; /* unique file id */
+};
+
+#define PROCFS_NOTELEN 64 /* max length of a note (/proc/$pid/note) */
+#define PROCFS_CTLLEN 8 /* max length of a ctl msg (/proc/$pid/ctl */
+
+/*
+ * Kernel stuff follows
+ */
+#ifdef KERNEL
+#define CNEQ(cnp, s, len) \
+ ((cnp)->cn_namelen == (len) && \
+ (bcmp((s), (cnp)->cn_nameptr, (len)) == 0))
+
+#define KMEM_GROUP 2
+/*
+ * Format of a directory entry in /proc, ...
+ * This must map onto struct dirent (see <dirent.h>)
+ */
+#define PROCFS_NAMELEN 8
+struct pfsdent {
+ u_long d_fileno;
+ u_short d_reclen;
+ u_char d_type;
+ u_char d_namlen;
+ char d_name[PROCFS_NAMELEN];
+};
+#define UIO_MX sizeof(struct pfsdent)
+#define PROCFS_FILENO(pid, type) \
+ (((type) == Proot) ? \
+ 2 : \
+ ((((pid)+1) << 3) + ((int) (type))))
+
+/*
+ * Convert between pfsnode vnode
+ */
+#define VTOPFS(vp) ((struct pfsnode *)(vp)->v_data)
+#define PFSTOV(pfs) ((pfs)->pfs_vnode)
+
+typedef struct vfs_namemap vfs_namemap_t;
+struct vfs_namemap {
+ const char *nm_name;
+ int nm_val;
+};
+
+extern int vfs_getuserstr __P((struct uio *, char *, int *));
+extern vfs_namemap_t *vfs_findname __P((vfs_namemap_t *, char *, int));
+
+/* <machine/reg.h> */
+struct reg;
+struct fpreg;
+
+#define PFIND(pid) ((pid) ? pfind(pid) : &proc0)
+extern int procfs_freevp __P((struct vnode *));
+extern int procfs_allocvp __P((struct mount *, struct vnode **, long, pfstype));
+extern struct vnode *procfs_findtextvp __P((struct proc *));
+extern int procfs_sstep __P((struct proc *));
+extern void procfs_fix_sstep __P((struct proc *));
+extern int procfs_read_regs __P((struct proc *, struct reg *));
+extern int procfs_write_regs __P((struct proc *, struct reg *));
+extern int procfs_read_fpregs __P((struct proc *, struct fpreg *));
+extern int procfs_write_fpregs __P((struct proc *, struct fpreg *));
+extern int procfs_donote __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
+extern int procfs_doregs __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
+extern int procfs_dofpregs __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
+extern int procfs_domem __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
+extern int procfs_doctl __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
+extern int procfs_dostatus __P((struct proc *, struct proc *, struct pfsnode *pfsp, struct uio *uio));
+
+#define PROCFS_LOCKED 0x01
+#define PROCFS_WANT 0x02
+
+extern int (**procfs_vnodeop_p)();
+extern struct vfsops procfs_vfsops;
+
+int procfs_root __P((struct mount *, struct vnode **));
+
+/*
+ * Prototypes for procfs vnode ops
+ */
+int procfs_badop(); /* varargs */
+int procfs_rw __P((struct vop_read_args *));
+int procfs_lookup __P((struct vop_lookup_args *));
+#define procfs_create ((int (*) __P((struct vop_create_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_mknod ((int (*) __P((struct vop_mknod_args *))) procfs_badop)
+int procfs_open __P((struct vop_open_args *));
+int procfs_close __P((struct vop_close_args *));
+int procfs_access __P((struct vop_access_args *));
+int procfs_getattr __P((struct vop_getattr_args *));
+int procfs_setattr __P((struct vop_setattr_args *));
+#define procfs_read procfs_rw
+#define procfs_write procfs_rw
+int procfs_ioctl __P((struct vop_ioctl_args *));
+#define procfs_select ((int (*) __P((struct vop_select_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_mmap ((int (*) __P((struct vop_mmap_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_fsync ((int (*) __P((struct vop_fsync_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_seek ((int (*) __P((struct vop_seek_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_remove ((int (*) __P((struct vop_remove_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_link ((int (*) __P((struct vop_link_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_rename ((int (*) __P((struct vop_rename_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_mkdir ((int (*) __P((struct vop_mkdir_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_rmdir ((int (*) __P((struct vop_rmdir_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_symlink ((int (*) __P((struct vop_symlink_args *))) procfs_badop)
+int procfs_readdir __P((struct vop_readdir_args *));
+#define procfs_readlink ((int (*) __P((struct vop_readlink_args *))) procfs_badop)
+int procfs_abortop __P((struct vop_abortop_args *));
+int procfs_inactive __P((struct vop_inactive_args *));
+int procfs_reclaim __P((struct vop_reclaim_args *));
+#define procfs_lock ((int (*) __P((struct vop_lock_args *))) nullop)
+#define procfs_unlock ((int (*) __P((struct vop_unlock_args *))) nullop)
+#define procfs_bmap ((int (*) __P((struct vop_bmap_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_strategy ((int (*) __P((struct vop_strategy_args *))) procfs_badop)
+int procfs_print __P((struct vop_print_args *));
+#define procfs_islocked ((int (*) __P((struct vop_islocked_args *))) nullop)
+#define procfs_advlock ((int (*) __P((struct vop_advlock_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_blkatoff ((int (*) __P((struct vop_blkatoff_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_valloc ((int (*) __P((struct vop_valloc_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_vfree ((int (*) __P((struct vop_vfree_args *))) nullop)
+#define procfs_truncate ((int (*) __P((struct vop_truncate_args *))) procfs_badop)
+#define procfs_update ((int (*) __P((struct vop_update_args *))) nullop)
+#endif /* KERNEL */
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/sys/proc.h ./sys/proc.h
--- /usr/src/sys/sys/proc.h Thu Mar 16 10:16:22 1995
+++ ./sys/proc.h Wed Jul 19 20:45:24 1995
@@ -137,8 +137,8 @@
struct vnode *p_textvp; /* Vnode of executable. */
char p_lock; /* Process lock count. */
- char p_pad2[3]; /* alignment */
- long p_spare[2]; /* Pad to 256, avoid shifting eproc. XXX */
+ char p_pad2[1]; /* alignment XXX */
+/* long p_spare[2]; /* Pad to 256, avoid shifting eproc. XXX */
/* End area that is zeroed on creation. */
#define p_endzero p_startcopy
@@ -169,6 +169,9 @@
u_short p_xstat; /* Exit status for wait; also stop signal. */
u_short p_acflag; /* Accounting flags. */
struct rusage *p_ru; /* Exit information. XXX */
+ unsigned int p_stops; /* procfs event bitmask */
+ unsigned int p_stype; /* procfs stop event type */
+ char p_step; /* procfs stop *once* flag */
};
#define p_session p_pgrp->pg_session
@@ -237,6 +240,21 @@
if (--(s)->s_count == 0) \
FREE(s, M_SESSION); \
}
+
+#define S_EXEC 0x0001 /* stop-on-exec */
+#define S_SIG 0x0002 /* stop-on-signal */
+#define S_SCE 0x0004 /* stop-on-syscall-entry */
+#define S_SCX 0x0008 /* stop-on-syscall-exit */
+#define S_CORE 0x0010 /* stop-on-core-dump */
+#define S_EXIT 0x0020 /* stop-on-exit */
+
+#ifdef PROCFS
+extern void stopevent();
+# define STOPEVENT(p,e,v) do { \
+ if ((p)->p_stops & (e)) stopevent(p,e,v); } while (0)
+#else
+# define STOPEVENT(p,e,v) do { ; } while (0)
+#endif
extern struct proc *pidhash[]; /* In param.c. */
extern struct pgrp *pgrphash[]; /* In param.c. */
diff -r -u -N --exclude=GARTH --exclude=*.~* --exclude=*.orig /usr/src/sys/sys/procfs.h ./sys/procfs.h
--- /usr/src/sys/sys/procfs.h Wed Dec 31 16:00:00 1969
+++ ./sys/procfs.h Thu Jul 20 16:59:15 1995
@@ -0,0 +1,13 @@
+#include <sys/ioctl.h>
+
+struct procfs_status {
+ int state; /* 0 for running, 1 for stopped */
+ int why; /* what event, if any, process is stopped on */
+ unsigned int val; /* Value event wishes "debugger" to know */
+};
+
+#define PIOCEVBIS _IOW('p', 1, unsigned int) /* set event flag mask */
+#define PIOCEVBIC _IOW('p', 2, unsigned int) /* clear event flag mask */
+#define PIOCGEVFLAG _IOR('p', 3, unsigned int) /* get event flag mask */
+#define PIOCWAIT _IOR('p', 4, struct procfs_status) /* wait */
+#define PIOCCONT _IOW('p', 5, int) /* Continue */
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 20:37:39 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:37:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Jake Hamby <jehamby@lightside.com>
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Subject: Help, I've been SCOed!
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I just spent a day trying to upgrade a SCO system to Solaris/x86, and I
thought y'all might be interested to hear a brief summary of: Why SCO
stinks so bad, What FreeBSD can do to court SCO users, and Why I wasn't
able to upgrade to Solaris (hint: it's not Solaris's fault!).
First, why I wasn't able to upgrade. This user is primarily using the SCO
system as a dial-in (through a Digi Portserver) to remote sites, who
access a FoxPro database (yes, Microsoft FoxPro 2.6 for SCO UNIX!) for
contact and billing info. We decided that Solaris/x86 would be the most
compatible with SCO, because it has full COFF binary support (or so we
thought).
Wisely, we grabbed a scratch hard drive from the old (now unused) 486
server to install Solaris, so we could leave the SCO installation
untouched until we'd verified compatibility. Good move. Solaris
immediately core-dumped when attempting to run the foxpro executable! A
truss output revealed it was looking for locale data, then immediately
received a bunch of signals (apparently from itself), including SIGABORT.
Copying the locale data over (into the rather odd directory
/usr/lib/locale/C/C/C), didn't fix the problem. Lacking any more
sophisticated tools, we gave up.
The worst part was that some of the programs they had used (fortunately
not FoxPro) were not even COFF, but XENIX a.out! Running "file" revealed
something like:
Microsoft a.out pure dynamic byte-swapped executable
(I forget the exact modifiers). Needless to say, Solaris had NO clue
about this files and tried to run them as shell scripts!
At any rate, to justify our day's worth of work, we replaced the crappy
Trident video card the original sysadmin had installed (this was a
custom-built PC with the only redeeming quality being a dual hot-swappable
power supply, that he had charged them over $6000 for, which we all agreed
was a ripoff) with a Diamond Stealth 64 from another PC, and miraculously
were able to get X running immediately (they had NEVER got it to work
before, so had been using console mode all this time). We also tried to
install the developer environment on the off chance that we could use ld
or some other tool to somehow "wrap" the a.out binaries with a COFF or ELF
header. There was a tool called "coff2elf" but NOTHING related to XENIX
binaries. Does anyone have background info on these old XENIX binaries?
Will FreeBSD or Linux run them?
Fortunately, the company is understanding of our failure, because we tried
everything in our power to give them a drop-in replacement for SCO, and
they didn't have high hopes to begin with. Even if we had been able to
deliver, they still want to migrate to Windows NT, so we spent a lot of
today talking about exactly what our options were. And for what they need
(a simple relational database, and many are comfortable with Access
already), I can't say that I blame them. If they did want to stay with
UNIX, they would likely need some programmer to come in and custom-write a
front-end (probably in VB for Windows) to access Oracle or some other
RDBMS on the UNIX host, which would cost them a lot more than using
shrink-wrapped software and NT (I realize they would probably still need
some VB programming on the NT clients regardless). FWIW, the regular
sysadmin was cool, and even though he hadn't used UNIX before, in the six
months he'd worked there, he'd become quite proficient. Personally, he is
comfortable with UNIX or NT, so if anyone can tell me what FreeBSD
software is available to implement basic billing, contact management, and
RDBMS capabilities that would NOT require a lot of custom programming,
they would be equally receptive to a UNIX solution.
Also, I got a copy of FoxPro squirreled away on my Zip drive, so just to
torment my PC, I will play around with them on FreeBSD and Linux. If
either of them actually works, I will be VERY pleasantly surprised!
Some final comments about SCO:
Their package system is VERY VERY slow. It also requires a huge amount of
time just to read the package information from the CD-ROM before it even
starts (every time you use it!). Packages (including most of the OS
itself) are all installed in /opt/K/SCO/blah/foo/whatever and symlinked
all over the place (this has been mentioned before on this list)
Changing almost ANY trivial parameter requires a kernel relink and reboot.
This includes adding a SCSI hard drive (boot it up, configure it, and then
reboot again!), or even adding a serial-port mouse!
SCO's next project is Gemini, a merger of OpenServer 5 (SVR3.2) and
UnixWare (SVR4). The article I read was very flattering of all the
wonderful features of SVR4 (better performance, standard package tools, no
need to relink the kernel), but I couldn't help but notice all of these
features are available now in Solaris or UnixWare, so I guess these people
that are still running SCO must all be using XENIX binaries or something.
The "SCO Doctor Lite" package promised to do all sorts of wonderful
pro-active system management stuff. It turns out that the really clever
AI stuff ("intelligent kernel tuning", interpreting the results) was in
the full SCO Doctor product so essentially all we got were some pretty
(character-mode) bar graphs of data you could get from "top".
On the plus side, the X11R5/Motif desktop is decent. It looks a bit like
both Windows and CDE. Their help system is done in HTML (oddly, most of
the HTML pages were compress(1)ed), with a modified version of NCSA Mosaic
called "scohelp" (the regular Mosaic was also bundled). All the pages are
fed through a local http server (running on port 432), so that a cgi
script can also link you to man pages (e.g. /cgi-bin/man/cp+1). Also,
scoadmin is a decent program, and the Visual Tcl concept (the same program
works in console or X) is interesting.
So, what can FreeBSD do to court SCO users? We could:
1) Have really good COFF and/or XENIX binary compatibility. This is a lot
better than what Solaris/x86 offers right now!
2) Start on a decent admin type program. Personally, I think a good
approach is something combining the ideas of SCO (works on GUI and
command-line), Sun (supports files and NIS), and AIX (shows you exactly
what commands it's running to do the job, so you can put them in a script
or run them manually if you desire). The disadvantages of these three
tools we should avoid: SCO almost everything involves relinking the
kernel, Solaris doesn't use UNIX tools to do its job so you have no idea
how to do things yourself manually (the exact opposite of AIX), and I
don't know about AIX enough to say what its weak points are.
3) Start thinking about a custom help system like scohelp, which would
combine man pages and HTML through a custom HTTP server that could be
accessed remotely. Everyone is moving to HTML (or SGML) anyway, including
our own FreeBSD Handbook. We just need to make things more approachable
for new users.
All of these have been discussed recently in hackers, so I thought I'd
post this as a summary of how one vendor has done things. I wish I had
some more insightful comments, but I hope that repeating what they've done
wrong should show us what we can do better.
I hope you found these comments useful and relevant. Overall, I'd say
FreeBSD has done as good (and often better) job than many commercial UNIX
vendors have done, as my experience today proved! BTW, now I know that if
I had spent $10 on "Free SCO", it would've been wasted money. Rather to
find that out with someone else paying me, than vice versa! :-) Now, when
Free UnixWare comes out, that I might think about buying. Comments?
-- Jake
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 21:00:49 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:13:55 -0800 (PST)
From: John-Mark Gurney <jmg@nike.efn.org>
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Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
To: Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de>
cc: FreeBSD hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: possible bug in comconsole code...
In-Reply-To: <199612071921.UAA21995@uriah.heep.sax.de>
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On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, J Wunsch wrote:
> As John-Mark Gurney wrote:
>
> > I tried some basic stuff like "echo blah > /dev/cuaa0" which just returned
> > a single "b"... then I thought that the port might be closing before the
> > data was sent... so a "(echo blah;sleep 1)> /dev/cuaa0" got the whole
> > thing sent out...
>
> It's perhaps possible that your terminal is sensible against modem
> control signals? Though i've been using comconsole in a similar
well... I'm using tip running on another FreeBSD box... but now it is now
a little pointless... I'm now restricting logins to the comconsole as
it's attached to my main server now...
> environment, and only noticed that the output drops at the time the
> sio devices are being probed. (Even this doesn't happen with a
> modem-control insensitive terminal however.)
hmmm... is tip sensitive to it? thanks for the advice though... ttyl..
John-Mark
gurney_j@efn.org
http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/
Modem/FAX: (541) 683-6954 (FreeBSD Box)
Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD (unix)
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 21:40:27 1996
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From: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
Message-Id: <199612080540.KAA25708@hq.icb.chel.su>
Subject: Re: Help, I've been SCOed!
To: jehamby@lightside.com
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 10:40:11 +0500 (ESK)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961207195642.184D-100000@hamby1> from "Jake Hamby" at Dec 7, 96 08:37:17 pm
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> before, so had been using console mode all this time). We also tried to
> install the developer environment on the off chance that we could use ld
> or some other tool to somehow "wrap" the a.out binaries with a COFF or ELF
> header. There was a tool called "coff2elf" but NOTHING related to XENIX
> binaries. Does anyone have background info on these old XENIX binaries?
> Will FreeBSD or Linux run them?
SCO had an utility obj2coff or something_else2coff that converted
XENIX object (not executable) files to COFF format. I can say that
it was in versions 3.2.1 and 3.2.2 of SCO. The C compiler
in these versions produced XENIX object files and then invoked this
utility. This utility was designed to work with C compiler and
coredumped if you tried to convert an object file you got
from assembly language source.
>
> On the plus side, the X11R5/Motif desktop is decent. It looks a bit like
> both Windows and CDE. Their help system is done in HTML (oddly, most of
> the HTML pages were compress(1)ed), with a modified version of NCSA Mosaic
> called "scohelp" (the regular Mosaic was also bundled). All the pages are
> fed through a local http server (running on port 432), so that a cgi
> script can also link you to man pages (e.g. /cgi-bin/man/cp+1). Also,
> scoadmin is a decent program, and the Visual Tcl concept (the same program
> works in console or X) is interesting.
I think that the SCO desktop is VERY uncomfortable. I tried to use it
but in a short time I understood that it is not what I wanted. One
of the worsest things in it is that when you browse directories
and go to the subdirectory it gives you a new window and remains
the parent window open. Shortly you get LOTS of directory windows
on your screen. In my opinion HP VUE has much better appearance.
Especially I like their idea of dashboard. Really fvwm already
does many things in a VUE like way.
> 2) Start on a decent admin type program. Personally, I think a good
> approach is something combining the ideas of SCO (works on GUI and
> command-line), Sun (supports files and NIS), and AIX (shows you exactly
> what commands it's running to do the job, so you can put them in a script
> or run them manually if you desire). The disadvantages of these three
> tools we should avoid: SCO almost everything involves relinking the
> kernel, Solaris doesn't use UNIX tools to do its job so you have no idea
> how to do things yourself manually (the exact opposite of AIX), and I
> don't know about AIX enough to say what its weak points are.
I don't know about AIX but HP-UX has really nice SAM program. After
all it allows you to see the log and learn the ways in that the
same things are done in shell.
-SB
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 22:13:01 1996
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From: Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
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Message-Id: <199612080612.WAA23898@athena.tera.com>
Subject: creating some sound-ware
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 22:12:24 -0800 (PST)
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Who would know which group to connect with regarding
creating some ((I'd guess fairly straightforward))
audio for FreeBSD?
Specifically, I want to create some binaural-beat
tracks. Hopefully this is doable with a simple
SB.
Anybody have any clues?
Thanks in advance.
gary kline
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 23:08:31 1996
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To: Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: creating some sound-ware
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Dec 1996 22:12:24 PST."
<199612080612.WAA23898@athena.tera.com>
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Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 23:08:25 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Typically, the people that know about that kind of tech stuff
subscribe to the multimedia mailing -- multimedia@freebsd.org
You can post here however due to the large traffic on this mailing
the request may go unnoticed.
Regards,
Amancio
>From The Desk Of Gary Kline :
>
>
> Who would know which group to connect with regarding
> creating some ((I'd guess fairly straightforward))
> audio for FreeBSD?
>
> Specifically, I want to create some binaural-beat
> tracks. Hopefully this is doable with a simple
> SB.
>
> Anybody have any clues?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> gary kline
>
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 23:29:12 1996
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Subject: Re: truss, trace ??
In-Reply-To: <199612080150.RAA20512@freefall.freebsd.org> from Darren Reed at "Dec 8, 96 12:50:03 pm"
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 18:28:46 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> > > Be nice if there was an option for it to output (immeadiately) to stdout
> > > rather than ktrace.out.
> >
> > I'm afraid that the kernel risks to stall if you get it to write the
> > trace into a FIFO. But perhaps it's not too difficult to have
> > kdump(8) doing some `tail -f' like magic? This should effectively
> > yield you a similar behaviour.
ktrace ./foo & kdump -l
From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 7 23:42:50 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:36:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Busarow <dan@dpcsys.com>
To: Jake Hamby <jehamby@lightside.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Help, I've been SCOed!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.961207195642.184D-100000@hamby1>
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On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Jake Hamby wrote:
> or some other tool to somehow "wrap" the a.out binaries with a COFF or ELF
> header. There was a tool called "coff2elf" but NOTHING related to XENIX
> binaries. Does anyone have background info on these old XENIX binaries?
Xenix binaries even have problems on SCO Unix (3.2) systems. When SCO Unix
first came out we switched development to it from Xenix and I was very
happy. Hey, I'd been working with Xenix and some other mini computer OSes.
Then we started getting complaints. Most Xenix programs worked, those
that ran as daemons and used IPC didn't. Bummer
I did test cases and sent them in, got it escalated to kernel support
in London (where all the _real_ kernel work was done, at least back then)
and basically was told that we'd have to ship Unix binaries, not Xenix ones and get everyone to upgrade.
> Some final comments about SCO:
>
> Their package system is VERY VERY slow. It also requires a huge amount of
> time just to read the package information from the CD-ROM before it even
> starts (every time you use it!). Packages (including most of the OS
> itself) are all installed in /opt/K/SCO/blah/foo/whatever and symlinked
> all over the place (this has been mentioned before on this list)
>From folks within SCO, this system is hated internally too. And it's not
in Gemini/UnixWare.
> UnixWare (SVR4). The article I read was very flattering of all the
> wonderful features of SVR4 (better performance, standard package tools, no
> need to relink the kernel), but I couldn't help but notice all of these
> features are available now in Solaris or UnixWare, so I guess these people
> that are still running SCO must all be using XENIX binaries or something.
Gemini really is UnixWare repackaged with the VisualTCL admin tools.
Plus Java and a few other bits. We've been using UnixWare since the
developers pre-release beta and are very happy with it.
The reason we are now using FreeBSD for our commercial produsct is
that while Novell thought there was a place for cheap single user
licenses, SCO doesn't. FreeSCO is fine, but not if you want to use it in
a commercial environment and they don't have a low cost single user
license.
BTW, I'm quite happy that SCO made me look at FreeBSD. Most of our
internal servers our now running FreeBSD and our product will be
native FreBSD too. Too bad I have to buy Motif :)
> So, what can FreeBSD do to court SCO users? We could:
Doesn't matter to me but for normal users FreBSD/XFree86 needs a
decent desktop. I'd use the UnixWare desktop as a model. It's
not that fat, behaves a lot like I expect a desktop to behave
(add files when I create them ...) and is pretty easy for users
to customize.
dtksh (nee wksh) which came up here a bit ago is also way cool (to me).
If you know ksh and you know Motif/X you know wksh. It is soooo
easy to knock out little utility scripts. Doesn't do character
mode though no matter what some people say.
> Free UnixWare comes out, that I might think about buying. Comments?
For personal use, have at it. It really is a good SVR4 and the
compiler and X server are great. If you want to sell it though,
or use it in a commercial environment you have to [ay the piper.
Dan
--
Dan Busarow 714 443 4172
DPC Systems dan@dpcsys.com
Dana Point, California 83 09 EF 59 E0 11 89 B4 8D 09 DB FD E1 DD 0C 82