From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 05:23:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA27728 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 05:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from solar.tlk.com (root@solar.tlk.com [194.97.84.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id FAA27723 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 05:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from travel.UUCP by solar.tlk.com via sendmail with UUCP id for freebsd.org!chat; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:23:21 +0100 (MET)) Received: by travel.tlk.com (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id ; Mon, 30 Dec 96 06:55 MET Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Dec 96 06:55 MET From: torstenb@freebsd.org (Torsten Blum) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook hw.sgml References: <7483.851797536@time.cdrom.com> <199612281939.UAA18233@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In freebsd_chat you wrote: >To the best of my knowledge, all other countries would finally also >fire their bureaucrats if they make too many mistakes. In Germany, >that's simply impossible: they must be paid until they finally die. No, they can be fired - but it's _very_ hard to do so and it does not happen often. For example, if a "beamter" violates "law" in serious ways (robbery, murdering and similar things) he can be fired. But that's probably not what you meant... I like reading mail and news in train - All I need is a "modem" card for my nokia mobile phone ... ;-) Torsten From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 05:25:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA27824 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 05:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from solar.tlk.com (solar.tlk.com [194.97.84.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id FAA27819 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 05:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from travel.UUCP by solar.tlk.com via sendmail with UUCP id for freebsd.org!chat; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:23:23 +0100 (MET)) Received: by travel.tlk.com (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id ; Mon, 30 Dec 96 07:01 MET Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Dec 96 07:01 MET From: torstenb@freebsd.org (Torsten Blum) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Cc: chat@freebsd.org References: <199612281939.UAA18233@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199612290105.LAA02177@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In freebsd-chat you wrote: >Ahh, well over here, you pay them _more_ when they get fired. And >then their buddies (because like termites or lice you can never get >all of them at once) hire them back as consultants at twice their >original salary. german "public servants" as consultans ? You must be kidding :) No, they go to companies like the "Deutsche Bundesbahn", "Deutsche Telekom", "Deutsche Bundespost" (or how it is called these days) and so on -tb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 06:15:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA29365 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 06:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA29359 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 06:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sage.fsl.noaa.gov (sage.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.42]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA00998; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 07:13:58 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32CA7125.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 07:13:57 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Dufault CC: Mike Pritchard , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ctm.sgml current.sgml cvsup.sgml dialup.sgml firewalls.sgml hw.sgml install.sgml isdn.sgml k References: <199701010037.TAA20268@hda.hda.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Dufault wrote: > I'm not sure. I checked Strunk and White's "Elements of Style" > (ISBN 0-02-418200-1) and nowhere do I see "Avoid the use of > contractions". Avoiding contractions usually makes for writing that sounds stiff and is somewhat harder to follow. I remember when I got my BS degree in Technical Writing studying writing styles and seeing that, especially for technical documentation, contractions make the material much more approachable, readable, and memorizable. I seem to remember asking John Fieber about this guidline and his response was that it would help us write documentation better understandable by our international audience for whom English wasn't the first language. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 07:11:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA00804 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 07:11:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA00798; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 07:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id BAA13442; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:41:08 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199701011511.BAA13442@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: from Torsten Blum at "Dec 30, 96 07:01:00 am" To: torstenb@freebsd.org (Torsten Blum) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:41:06 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Torsten Blum stands accused of saying: > In freebsd-chat you wrote: > > >Ahh, well over here, you pay them _more_ when they get fired. And > >then their buddies (because like termites or lice you can never get > >all of them at once) hire them back as consultants at twice their > >original salary. > > german "public servants" as consultans ? You must be kidding :) "Those who can, do. Those who can't, consult". > -tb -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 15:51:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA01393 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA01388 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA14264 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:21:25 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199701012351.KAA14264@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:21:24 +1030 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There's a certain large (multinational) corporate with some not inconsiderable ground-level enthusiasm for using FreeBSD in preference to other less robust, open and harder to maintain/fix operating systems for internal network and security applications. However, like most such entities, management feel that because there's no tangible corporate entity ("somebody to sue if it goes wrong") behind FreeBSD, they can't possibly trust it. (Yes, I think they're stupid too.) Anyway, bottom line is: is there anyone in Australia currently offering paid commercial support (like Cygnus in the USA) for FreeBSD, or planning to in the short-term future? (I won't do any naming of names just yet, but suffice to say that the corporate in question is _big_ - they counter the argument "you never get bugfixes out of Microsoft" with "we do when we lean on them". Their internal intranet is undergoing explosive growth right now, and it would be an excellent win for both sides if something could be done here.) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 17:26:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA06729 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA06724 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA00307; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:26:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701020126.RAA00307@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Jan 1997 10:21:24 +1030." <199701012351.KAA14264@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 17:26:03 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If they are a big corporation they can hire a couple of programmers for the OS support. Is just that people have to get used to the notion that they can have control over their OS 8) Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Michael Smith : > > There's a certain large (multinational) corporate with some not > inconsiderable ground-level enthusiasm for using FreeBSD in preference > to other less robust, open and harder to maintain/fix operating > systems for internal network and security applications. > > However, like most such entities, management feel that because there's > no tangible corporate entity ("somebody to sue if it goes wrong") > behind FreeBSD, they can't possibly trust it. (Yes, I think they're > stupid too.) > > Anyway, bottom line is: is there anyone in Australia currently offering > paid commercial support (like Cygnus in the USA) for FreeBSD, or > planning to in the short-term future? > > (I won't do any naming of names just yet, but suffice to say that the > corporate in question is _big_ - they counter the argument "you never > get bugfixes out of Microsoft" with "we do when we lean on them". > Their internal intranet is undergoing explosive growth right now, and > it would be an excellent win for both sides if something could be done > here.) > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 17:31:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA07061 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:31:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA07055 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id MAA14702; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:01:11 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199701020131.MAA14702@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-Reply-To: <199701020126.RAA00307@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jan 1, 97 05:26:03 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:01:11 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > If they are a big corporation they can hire a couple of programmers > for the OS support. Is just that people have to get used to the > notion that they can have control over their OS 8) They don't want to do that. Both I and the local enthusiasm agree that it'd be the best way to go, but there's historical and management resistance to the idea. (They're scared of being stuck with an orphan, basically.) The conversation, as reported to me, went something like : E: "Give me 8 hiring forms and I'll make this a supported platform for the entire Asia-Pacific region". M: "Would you put your genitalia on the railway tracks for this?" E: "Yes". ... Unfortunately, courage and confidence aren't enough. 8( > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 18:57:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA10945 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA10928 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA00357; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:56:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701020256.SAA00357@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Jan 1997 12:01:11 +1030." <199701020131.MAA14702@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 18:56:55 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, You can introduce them to bug report system for freebsd and the mailing list. One can argue that posting to the list or submitting a bug report is just as efficient or more than lets say reporting a bug to Sun or Microsoft. Perhaps, we should designate a FreeBSD representative whom large corporations should contact . Amancio >From The Desk Of Michael Smith : > Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > > > If they are a big corporation they can hire a couple of programmers > > for the OS support. Is just that people have to get used to the > > notion that they can have control over their OS 8) > > They don't want to do that. Both I and the local enthusiasm agree that > it'd be the best way to go, but there's historical and management > resistance to the idea. (They're scared of being stuck with an orphan, > basically.) > > The conversation, as reported to me, went something like : > > E: "Give me 8 hiring forms and I'll make this a supported platform for the > entire Asia-Pacific region". > M: "Would you put your genitalia on the railway tracks for this?" > E: "Yes". > ... > > Unfortunately, courage and confidence aren't enough. 8( > > > Amancio > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 19:23:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA12317 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA12312 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id NAA15099; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:53:21 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199701020323.NAA15099@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD into large corp. environment? In-Reply-To: <199701020256.SAA00357@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jan 1, 97 06:56:55 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:53:20 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > Well, > You can introduce them to bug report system for freebsd and the > mailing list. One can argue that posting to the list or submitting > a bug report is just as efficient or more than lets say reporting > a bug to Sun or Microsoft. Been there, done that. 8( The problem is simply that without a percieved corporate body (read "someone we think we can sue if it doesn't work") behind the product, they won't bite. > Perhaps, we should designate a FreeBSD representative whom large > corporations should contact . We have one of those already. (Hi Jordan!) But a good rep isn't the issue here; it's one of providing the appropriate sop to people that are too blind or too stupid to deal with reality. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 19:36:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA13085 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:36:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA13080 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:36:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA07514; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:36:30 -0800 (PST) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Michael Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Jan 1997 18:56:55 PST." <199701020256.SAA00357@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 19:36:29 -0800 Message-ID: <7510.852176189@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > a bug to Sun or Microsoft. Perhaps, we should designate a FreeBSD > representative whom large corporations should contact . It's the question of paying that representative so that they're fully accountable which seems to be up in the air here. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 23:28:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA21384 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from global2000.net (ut-dialup-13.global2000.net [204.249.217.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA21299 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from eagriff@localhost) by global2000.net (8.8.4/8.7.3) id CAA02173; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 02:24:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Eric A. Griff" Message-Id: <199701020724.CAA02173@global2000.net> Subject: Re: Motorola SLN3032A/HAYES Compat settings. In-Reply-To: <32C9D59D.2CEC@mail.idt.net> from Gary Corcoran at "Dec 31, 96 10:10:21 pm" To: garycorc@mail.idt.net Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 02:24:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: eagriff@global2000.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL29 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Eric A. Griff wrote: > > > > I hope this isn't off topic. > > I am in an area where there is no local ISP. I have a cellular phone, > > and just purchased a Motorola SLN3032A dialtone generator. It seems to work > > . My celphone is local to anywhere in the areacode at a mere 2 cents a > > minute -vs- $.18 per minute. > > That's an incredible rate - where do you live, and who's your cellular > provider? It's $0.39/minute here *with* a (former) employee discount! > (reply to this should probably go to -chat) Oneida, NY. Frontier Cellular. Actually it turns out 4 cents a minute. That is for a local landline surcharge from the local telephone co (NYNEX). The plan is the maximizer plan. Primetime $.30/minute (7am-7pm weekdays), and free non-primetime (7pm-7am weekdays, all weekend, and certain holidays), and always the nynex charge. Cellular One, the other local carrier has an identical plan. > > > The second is power life. I will probably have to hack a dead > > battery pak to a power supply. > > Why don't you get a car power cord for your cell phone, then instead > of plugging it into a cigarette lighter outlet, hook it up to a 12V > power supply? You can get a compatible (cigarette lighter type) > socket at Radio Shack with wires on it to hook up to the power supply. > > Gary > The SLN3032A plugs into where the cig lighter jack plugs into. However, I lucked out. The tech at frontier had an older lighter plug that snapped on in place of the battery pack on the microtac cel phone. He gave it to me. Eric From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 2 08:23:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA10912 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA10901 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA01303 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:22:49 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:23:12 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA16423; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:23:07 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) id QAA01333; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:21:40 GMT To: John Fieber Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: mailing list archives References: From: Paul Richards Date: 02 Jan 1997 16:21:38 +0000 In-Reply-To: John Fieber's message of Fri, 27 Dec 1996 21:06:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <57g20k120d.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 53 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber writes: > It isn't so much weight as being inappropriate for the task. > Using postgres would be like entering long haul tractor trailer > rig in the Indianapolis 500. Using msql would be like using a > GMC Suburban in the same context. Relational databases in general > are not well suited for tasks where record and field structure > has a lot of variability, eg mail. Postgres isn't that big but I agree with the following. > The tools of choice for text will be based on either inverted > indexes or vector representations. The better of these will > offer stemming, synonym matching and soundex matching. Databases aren't actually that good for general string searches. > To get the answers, we need thread retrieval. For this, I don't > think we need new indexing software, we just need to figure out > how to take an existing message and *automatically* formulate > appropriate queries to build the thread from it. Hypermail could be used for a big chunk of this if we accept that each message will be in a separate file. The problem then becomes rather trivial. I don't think I have time to implement this but if someone has time then the following is the basic principle of what would be required. The basic idea is that freewais returns a headline that is the path of the archived message. I use a scheme like this in work where basically freewais returns me a key rather than the content. At build time. 1) Put all our mail through hypermail. 2) Configure FreeWAIS to return a headline that is the hypermail key for the mail messages that match. At access time. 1) The search script calls waisq with the query string 2) waisq will return all the hypermail keys for messages that match in the headline which can be extracted using a simple perl script. 3) These keys are converted into a page of links that the user can jump into. 4) Once the initial link is followed hypermail will handle all the issues regarding following threads etc. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 2 08:34:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA12173 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:34:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA12166 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:34:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA01680 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:33:11 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:33:33 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA18743; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:33:27 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) id QAA01342; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:32:01 GMT To: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IP Filtering to www.freebsd.org References: <59qhhr$l88@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <199612250738.CAA02854@crh.cl.msu.edu> <199612261653.LAA14925@nimbus.superior.net> From: Paul Richards Date: 02 Jan 1997 16:32:00 +0000 In-Reply-To: exidor@superior.net's message of Thu, 26 Dec 1996 11:53:38 -0500 Message-ID: <57eng411j3.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 33 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) writes: > > >Nate Williams wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > >So, have you stopped beating your wife yet? > > > > Jesus Nate, whats up with this kinda shit A) in a FreeBSD mailing list, > > B) on an issue where the poster was correct, C) coming from a respected FreeBSD > > person, D) on Christmas eve? > > I guess there are many people who aren't aware of this famous question. > I doubt it was intended as an insult - rather it was to point out that the > nature of the original question. It really doesn't work in this case, but > if you think he was seriously accusing Mr. Levy of being a wife-beater, > you're mistaken. I have in fact come across this before and it wasn't meant as an insult in that case either but I think it's a very, very dangerous comment to make in a public forum where most people are not aware of what appears to be some regional US throwaway comment. It would certainly be considered very offensive over here. If someone wants to reply to me privately as to why this is a famous question then I'd be glad to have my curiosity satisfied. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 3 01:28:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA09282 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA09256 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA17277; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:28:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:28:06 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Amancio Hasty , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-Reply-To: <7510.852176189@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > a bug to Sun or Microsoft. Perhaps, we should designate a FreeBSD > > representative whom large corporations should contact . > > It's the question of paying that representative so that they're fully > accountable which seems to be up in the air here. :-) > > Jordan I think you need more than a representative--you need a real corporate entity, a central organization with whom the large corporation can contract for various services as they need them, whether it's security problems, equipment that won't work, or whatever. It seems to me that except for a central person to make sure corporate requests get handled promptly and appropriately, the professionals in this organization could be independent contractors to the corporation who have the time (at least now and then) to take on some extra work for pay--essentially, the same people who are contributing now to the development of FreeBSD and running FreeBSD systems professionally. You could then argue that the support organization is make up of experts around the world in a wide range of fields, and that corpor- ations would get the kind of help they need when they need it... Corporations would probably like some assurance that the expert to whom they're referred for a particular problem is a responsible person, and the greatest legal problem with such an approach might be protecting "FreeBSD Inc." from lawsuits resulting from damage or theft of corporate data. But I imagine there are some standard contracts for computer consultants that deal with such matters. Just one point of view... Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 3 01:54:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA11044 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA11034 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA22434; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:53:03 -0800 (PST) To: Annelise Anderson cc: Amancio Hasty , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Jan 1997 01:28:06 PST." Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 01:53:03 -0800 Message-ID: <22430.852285183@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think you need more than a representative--you need a real corporate > entity, a central organization with whom the large corporation can > contract for various services as they need them, whether it's > security problems, equipment that won't work, or whatever. Agreed. At this point, the only thing really stopping us from going for such an arrangement is startup capital. I've realized that the few donations which trickle in (and Annelise was one of the very first to do so - thanks, Annelise!) are about enough to buy the occasional disk drive or contribute to the construction of a mirror site (both of which have been FreeBSD, Inc. purchases) but not much more than that. Before I'd even consider setting up a support organization, I'd have to have enough money to hire a business manager and pay them a decent salary, a small used PBX and enough office space to house the front-line tech support people. The "heavyweights" could consult on an hourly basis from their homes, but you've gotta have somebody who's in a fixed location from 9am-5pm or the whole concept just won't fly. >From my very rough estimates, it would take around $350,000 to hire the first tech support people and the accountant/office manager, rent a small office in a not-too-wealthy part of town, get phone lines and a small PBX installed, run a T1 out from a local ISP and buy a couple of office server systems. And that's being highly frugal at all times; taking on full-time employees is just plain expensive, once you add up all the benefits and 401K plans you're required to make available. Operating costs would probably not drop much below $350K after the first year, either, since you'd need to expand operations beyond the starting point and probably incur lots of expenses you didn't initially count on, either. That means that you'd have to sell around 150 support contracts at $2,500/yr just to keep the doors open without a second round of funding and more like 300 if you wanted to show any kind of operating profit for your initial investor(s), something which they'd probably rather like. :-) So, I guess that leads in turn to two questions: 1. "Brother, can you spare $350K for a support organization?" 2. "Are there 300 companies out there who'd be willing to pay up to $2,500 a year for the privilege of pestering someone when their systems have problems?" Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 3 02:28:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA12135 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 02:28:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA12130 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 02:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA17730 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:27:48 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:28:29 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA15736 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:28:25 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) id KAA01677; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:26:58 GMT To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Unanswerable questions From: Paul Richards Date: 03 Jan 1997 10:26:57 +0000 Message-ID: <57u3ozrr4e.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, been an educational 24 hours. I now know all about questions that should be answered "moo" and yes we do have those sorts of questions over in the UK, I just wasn't making the connection. Thanks. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 3 14:32:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA17850 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA17783 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0vgI96-0008vgC; Fri, 3 Jan 97 14:31 PST Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA17941; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:12:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:12:03 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Amancio Hasty , Michael Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-Reply-To: <22430.852285183@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I think you need more than a representative--you need a real corporate > > entity, a central organization with whom the large corporation can > > contract for various services as they need them, whether it's > > security problems, equipment that won't work, or whatever. > > Agreed. > > At this point, the only thing really stopping us from going for such > an arrangement is startup capital. > ..... Before I'd even consider > setting up a support organization, I'd have to have enough money to > hire a business manager and pay them a decent salary, a small used PBX > and enough office space to house the front-line tech support people. > The "heavyweights" could consult on an hourly basis from their homes, > but you've gotta have somebody who's in a fixed location from 9am-5pm > or the whole concept just won't fly. I'm not convinced about this. It might be possible to do it without front-line tech support people and without an office and a pbx; just with electronic mail. Then it's not 9-5, it's 24/7. Clients would send requests for help to a mailing list readable only by the people willing to take on the work; they'd indicate their willingness and the client would accept or not. Decentralized. Even the billing could be handled primarily by electronic mail. > > >From my very rough estimates, it would take around $350,000 to hire > the first tech support people and the accountant/office manager, rent > a small office in a not-too-wealthy part of town, get phone lines and > a small PBX installed, run a T1 out from a local ISP and buy a couple > of office server systems. And that's being highly frugal at all > times; taking on full-time employees is just plain expensive, once you > add up all the benefits and 401K plans you're required to make > available. > > Operating costs would probably not drop much below $350K after the > first year, either, since you'd need to expand operations beyond the > starting point and probably incur lots of expenses you didn't > initially count on, either. That means that you'd have to sell around > 150 support contracts at $2,500/yr just to keep the doors open without > a second round of funding and more like 300 if you wanted to show any > kind of operating profit for your initial investor(s), something which > they'd probably rather like. :-) > > So, I guess that leads in turn to two questions: > > 1. "Brother, can you spare $350K for a support organization?" > > 2. "Are there 300 companies out there who'd be willing to pay > up to $2,500 a year for the privilege of pestering someone > when their systems have problems?" > > Jordan Certainly you'd have some start-up costs in getting together some standard contracts. You might or might not have to buy some insurance or pay someone to check out the independent contractors for criminal records or whatever, to reduce liability. Billing and paying should scale to the volume of business. Beyond that there might be the desire of potential clients to sit down and talk about arrangements. Or complain. I'm not sure what kind of a demand this would place on already busy people. There's some time and money involved in this, but there's also a good deal of effort involved in writing up business plans, trying to provide an estimate of the market, etc. that would be necessary in order to raise $350,000 of capital that would go primarily for annual operating expenses. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 3 15:37:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA20598 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from vex.net (shell.vex.net [207.107.242.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA20530 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from vex.net(really [207.107.242.162]) by vex.net via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:29:14 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.90 1996-Dec-4 #3 built 1996-Dec-12) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:29:14 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Annelise Anderson , Amancio Hasty , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-Reply-To: <22430.852285183@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > At this point, the only thing really stopping us from going for such > an arrangement is startup capital. Would it not be possible to retain a dozen or so consultants in varying geographical locations, and have the customer call in a request to page their assigned "software engineer", who would then call the customer back. I know it isn't as nice as talking to someone live on the phone when you need them, but it should eliminate most of your office and full-time employee costs. My previous employer had earmarked in the neighbourhood of $25,000 a year for vendor support contracts alone, and another $100,000 for project consulting fees. They need a corporate entity to do business with, not just a list of names of FreeBSD hackers and their home phone numbers. I know of a few UNIX consulting groups in Toronto whose members operate out of home offices and have no problems winning large contracts with telcos, insurance companies and the federal government (heck, even governments of other countries!). A client generally does not know or care whether your office is in your unfinished basement den, or on the 75th floor of a downtown skyscraper. Most of the work can be done remotely, so they won't even care how you dress. ;-) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 3 21:59:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA01307 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:59:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA01280; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from revelstone.jvm.com (revelstone.jvm.com [207.98.213.2]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id UAA04512 ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:38:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from freyes.dh.i-2000.com (slip166-72-219-73.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.73]) by revelstone.jvm.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA01796; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 23:37:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701040437.XAA01796@revelstone.jvm.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" , "Annelise Anderson" Cc: "Jordan K. President FreeBSD project." Date: Fri, 03 Jan 97 23:36:55 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:12:03 -0800 (PST), Annelise Anderson wrote: >I'm not convinced about this. It might be possible to do it without >front-line tech support people and without an office and a pbx; just >with electronic mail. Then it's not 9-5, it's 24/7. Clients would >send requests for help to a mailing list readable only by the >people willing to take on the work; they'd indicate their willingness >and the client would accept or not. Decentralized. Even the billing >could be handled primarily by electronic mail. How about starting out even simpler? -Create a paid e-mailing support. -Make it more obvious/visible that FreeBSD Inc receives donations. Even better make targetted campaigns: "collection for buying compaq model XYZ. Cash or equipment -Help FreeBSD consultants and companies that support FreeBSD to advertise. -Use an add broker like "Link Exchange" to promote FreeBSD. -Make it easier for new people to get involved. How about making someone (preferably someone familiar with all the people involved with FreeBSD) incharge of helping new volunteers. Make it easier to submit documentation. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 3 22:12:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA03994 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:12:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA03989 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA03439; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:12:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701040612.WAA03439@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Brian Tao cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Annelise Anderson , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Jan 1997 18:29:14 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 22:12:15 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I know where you are coming from . We just need a business type to fit in what we are doing in a business model. I think that many enthusiasts such as myself will be willing to forgo pay initially in the hope that at a later date we could actually make a living hacking on FreeBSD. At any rate, Jordan , when am I going to get paid cause I am working my ass off on a new video capture driver for FreeBSD -- at any rate, you can easily see what I mean --- many of us are already working hard on FreeBSD so I for starters will be willing to donate my time well sort of since I am already donating my time 8) The biggest is issue is expectation there is difference hacking for fun than for a living however I think that if we set the expectations right many will be able to fit in. Enjoy, Amancio >From The Desk Of Brian Tao : > On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > At this point, the only thing really stopping us from going for such > > an arrangement is startup capital. > > Would it not be possible to retain a dozen or so consultants in > varying geographical locations, and have the customer call in a > request to page their assigned "software engineer", who would then > call the customer back. I know it isn't as nice as talking to someone > live on the phone when you need them, but it should eliminate most of > your office and full-time employee costs. > > My previous employer had earmarked in the neighbourhood of $25,000 > a year for vendor support contracts alone, and another $100,000 for > project consulting fees. They need a corporate entity to do business > with, not just a list of names of FreeBSD hackers and their home phone > numbers. I know of a few UNIX consulting groups in Toronto whose > members operate out of home offices and have no problems winning large > contracts with telcos, insurance companies and the federal government > (heck, even governments of other countries!). A client generally does > not know or care whether your office is in your unfinished basement > den, or on the 75th floor of a downtown skyscraper. Most of the work > can be done remotely, so they won't even care how you dress. ;-) > -- > Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) > "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 01:31:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA08391 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 01:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA08380 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 01:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA25598; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 01:31:14 -0800 (PST) To: Annelise Anderson cc: Amancio Hasty , Michael Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Jan 1997 14:12:03 PST." Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 01:31:14 -0800 Message-ID: <25593.852370274@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm not convinced about this. It might be possible to do it without > front-line tech support people and without an office and a pbx; just > with electronic mail. Then it's not 9-5, it's 24/7. Clients would Well, I just don't have a lot of faith in the amount of "comfort factor" we could truly provide (and morally sell) with purely email-based tech support. FreeBSD itself is a complicated product and PCs don't make it any easier by being festering lesions on the face of the computer industry, the closest thing to a social disease it's possible to catch with hardware alone. There are just so many questions you need to ask in diagnosing a mystery problem ("Hey, my Feeg & Elmer Datahumper 9000 PC Clone spontaneously reboots every weekday at 9:37am and at 4:53pm the 3rd sunday of every month!") that email quickly becomes frustrating to both parties. There's just no substitute for voice. Plus, what happens if the FreeBSD box in question is providing their sole email connection? That's not at all a far-fetched scenario. :-) Don't get me wrong, I far prefer the esthetically pleasing lines of a company with no offices and a purely virtual presence, overheads practically nil, but I just don't think it's going to work for the kinds of customers who need this service most. I can see an email-only contract being an *option* for those folks who truly do just need a hand from time to time and are otherwise experts who can handle their own shops just fine, thank you very much, but that hardly describes your average customer. I think the front line phone-in tech support is pretty much mandatory, and it's not something that I think it'd be possible to outsource, either. Knowing the kinds of questions the customers are asking and what their problems are is pretty invaluable information at the start, and a 3rd party call center just adds another layer of insulation that you could really do without. The other problem with wholly-distributed phone-in tech support is that managing it becomes a nightmare. How do you know how effective your tech support is? Are the customers ending most of their calls happily with your engineers? How long does each call take? Are questions being properly assigned to the right people by the front-line TSRs? If you don't get a handle on those issues pretty early in the game, your operating costs go way out of control as the consultants bill a lot of hours in avoidable wastage. I'd want to be working in the same offices as the tech support department for the first 6 months, at least, let's put it that way. :) >Billing and paying should scale to the volume of business. Oh, absolutely. I'm just trying to establish some reasonable minimums here. :-) The maximums are a little easier, since that starts to fall into more straight-forward hourly CE billing / group of highly paid contractors who fly here and there as needed arrangement. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 02:14:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA10191 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 02:14:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA10186 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 02:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA25865; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 02:14:27 -0800 (PST) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Brian Tao , Annelise Anderson , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Jan 1997 22:12:15 PST." <199701040612.WAA03439@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 02:14:27 -0800 Message-ID: <25861.852372867@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > make a living hacking on FreeBSD. At any rate, Jordan , when > am I going to get paid cause I am working my ass off on a > new video capture driver for FreeBSD -- at any rate, you You already get paid working as a consultant to people who need to have video capture card support for FreeBSD, I'd assume. :-) If you're not already listed on the new consultant's list, perhaps you should submit something for it - I'm certain that there wouldn't be too many others able to cite your degree of experience in the multimedia arena. In any case, I sort of doubt that a support organization would end up paying for much development work of that type anyway - not because it was cheap but because that just wouldn't be part of its core business. The core business of a tech support organization is in documenting and supporting the mainstream product, working more on filing off the rough edges than in taking the technology into bold, new directions! ;-) Besides, it probably couldn't pay your rates. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 02:52:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA11434 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 02:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id CAA11429 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 02:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA10422; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:51:27 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA02933; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:51:26 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id LAA19672; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:50:28 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:50:27 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSd Chat list) Cc: francisco@natserv.com (Francisco Reyes), andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu (Annelise Anderson), INVALID_ADDRESS@.SYNTAX-ERROR Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? References: <199701040437.XAA01796@revelstone.jvm.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199701040437.XAA01796@revelstone.jvm.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Jan 3, 1997 23:36:55 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Francisco Reyes wrote: > -Make it easier for new people to get involved. How about making > someone (preferably someone familiar with all the people involved with > FreeBSD) incharge of helping new volunteers. Well, that would be a fairly dreaded task then. Remember, most of us are here for fun, and `fun' spells for many of us like `coding'. So while we are certainly all willing to take our share, and get new volunteers flying (i remember that i've helped a few people to find a start in the project, like Peter Dufault, or John Polstra), we rather prefer doing so _in addition_ to other tasks. If done right, it will become an (albeit slow) chain reaction since those new contributors will one day also be able to `mentor' new people. Trying to dump over this task to a single person is something i suspect will be a dead end. > Make it easier to submit documentation. Hmm, i don't have an idea about the current size of activities of the `docs' folks. I always refer interested parties to their mailing list. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 03:09:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA11925 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 03:09:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA11920 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 03:09:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA00459; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 03:08:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701041108.DAA00459@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Brian Tao , Annelise Anderson , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Jan 1997 02:14:27 PST." <25861.852372867@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 03:08:53 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" : > > make a living hacking on FreeBSD. At any rate, Jordan , when > > am I going to get paid cause I am working my ass off on a > > new video capture driver for FreeBSD -- at any rate, you > > You already get paid working as a consultant to people who need to > have video capture card support for FreeBSD, I'd assume. :-) Chucks, I was just trying to get doubly paid --- Shame on me 8) > If you're not already listed on the new consultant's list, perhaps you > should submit something for it - I'm certain that there wouldn't be > too many others able to cite your degree of experience in the > multimedia arena. > > In any case, I sort of doubt that a support organization would end up > paying for much development work of that type anyway - not because it > was cheap but because that just wouldn't be part of its core business. > The core business of a tech support organization is in documenting and > supporting the mainstream product, working more on filing off the > rough edges than in taking the technology into bold, new directions! ;-) > > Besides, it probably couldn't pay your rates. :) You will be amazed at what people will be willing to pay if it contributes to their core business 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 06:49:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA26466 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from revelstone.jvm.com (revelstone.jvm.com [207.98.213.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA26461 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from freyes.dh.i-2000.com (slip166-72-219-95.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.95]) by revelstone.jvm.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA09429; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:49:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701041449.JAA09429@revelstone.jvm.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" , "Joerg Wunsch" Date: Sat, 04 Jan 97 09:48:42 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:50:27 +0100, J Wunsch wrote: >As Francisco Reyes wrote: >Well, that would be a fairly dreaded task then. Remember, most of us >are here for fun, and `fun' spells for many of us like `coding'. So >while we are certainly all willing to take our share, and get new >volunteers flying (i remember that i've helped a few people to find a >start in the project I think that there may be someone who wouldn't dread the task. For instance I had a co-worker that even though his job was as programmer, he loved interacting with people more than anything else. There are all kind of people involved with FreeBSD. >> Make it easier to submit documentation. > >Hmm, i don't have an idea about the current size of activities of the >`docs' folks. I always refer interested parties to their mailing >list. I tried once to help with documentation and found it frustrating. If they could just give a bit more guidance on how to do SGML that would be a great starting point. I tried looking at the existing code and didn't get too far. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 14:47:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA20918 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA20913 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA03266; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:29:37 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:29:37 -0500 (EST) From: Pedro Giffuni To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Wait for Netscape's Suitespot Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I saw in BSDI's site they are working closely with Netscape to port all their stuff under BSDI, and sell it together: A really good thing for FreeBSD users who dislike Windows NT! Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 14:57:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA21338 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA21333 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA05374; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:56:59 -0800 (PST) To: "Francisco Reyes" cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" , "Joerg Wunsch" Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Jan 1997 09:48:42 -0400." <199701041449.JAA09429@revelstone.jvm.com> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:56:59 -0800 Message-ID: <5370.852418619@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I tried once to help with documentation and found it frustrating. If > they could just give a bit more guidance on how to do SGML that would > be a great starting point. I tried looking at the existing code and > didn't get too far. But it's just not that complex? I appreciate the fact that a guide would be helpful, but no one is likely to have the time to write one anytime soon, so citing that as a prerequisite to progress is sort of like saying that you'll not have children until a state of ever-lasting world peace exists - you might as well just say you're never going to have kids at all. :-) Pretty much all of us learned SGML just from looking at the existing examples. We're not talking rocket science here, after all, just a simplistic markup language. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 16:44:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA02919 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA02817; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:43:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199701050043.QAA02817@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Usenix FreeBSD BoF when? To: hackers, chat Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:43:27 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk the BoF (birds of a feather) page at usenix.org http://www.usenix.org/ana97/bofs.html does not list a FreeBSD BoF! shall we schedule one? 8pm wednsesday or 8pm thursday look good ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 18:13:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA06585 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA06579; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA09064; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:13:34 -0800 (PST) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Usenix FreeBSD BoF when? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Jan 1997 16:43:27 PST." <199701050043.QAA02817@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 18:13:33 -0800 Message-ID: <9061.852430413@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > the BoF (birds of a feather) page at usenix.org > http://www.usenix.org/ana97/bofs.html > does not list a FreeBSD BoF! We usually don't schedule it until we get to the show and have a feel for when people want to do it, but 8pm Wednesday would be fine with me. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 18:21:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA06845 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from franc.ucdavis.edu (franc.ucdavis.edu [128.120.8.183]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA06808; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com by franc.ucdavis.edu (8.8.4/UCD3.8.4) id SAA23339; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.8.4/8.7.3) id SAA04841; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:17:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:17:28 -0800 From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu (David O'Brien) To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Usenix FreeBSD BoF when? References: <199701050043.QAA02817@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.54-PL15 Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: deobrien@ucdavis.edu X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 In-Reply-To: <199701050043.QAA02817@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Jan 4, 1997 16:43:27 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > the BoF (birds of a feather) page at usenix.org > http://www.usenix.org/ana97/bofs.html > does not list a FreeBSD BoF! > > shall we schedule one? > 8pm wednsesday or 8pm thursday look good ;) I vote for 8pm Thursday. There doesn't seem to be anything scheduled for that time yet. I and there is one I'd like to goto Wed at 8pm. -- -- David (deobrien@ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 18:35:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA07394 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA07193; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA26550; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:27:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32CF1156.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 18:26:30 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Usenix FreeBSD BoF when? References: <199701050043.QAA02817@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > the BoF (birds of a feather) page at usenix.org > http://www.usenix.org/ana97/bofs.html > does not list a FreeBSD BoF! > > shall we schedule one? > 8pm wednsesday or 8pm thursday look good ;) > > jmb I was just about to post about this! sounds a good time to me! From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 18:46:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA08092 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA08046 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:46:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA11664; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:45:49 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:45:47 +1100 From: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com ("Jordan K. Hubbard") Cc: francisco@natserv.com ("Francisco Reyes"), chat@freebsd.org ("FreeBSd Chat list") Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? References: <199701041449.JAA09429@revelstone.jvm.com> <5370.852418619@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.56 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5370.852418619@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" on Jan 4, 1997 14:56:59 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > I tried once to help with documentation and found it frustrating. If > > they could just give a bit more guidance on how to do SGML that would > > be a great starting point. I tried looking at the existing code and > > didn't get too far. > > But it's just not that complex? No, it isn't complex. Especially so if you've fiddled with html and got the idea of how a markup language works. Same principle (html is an sgml subset, with its own dtd). > I appreciate the fact that a guide would be helpful, Yep, it would. I didn't manage to find much helpful on the Linuxdoc dtd, though, after some hours of looking, and this is really what is needed, not so much sgml itself which apart from the intricacies of setting up a new DTD is conceptually straight-forward. OTOH, the docbook dtd does come with a sizeable amount of documentation. It'll be good when that is finally integrated. > Pretty much all of us learned SGML just from looking at the existing > examples. We're not talking rocket science here, after all, just a > simplistic markup language. :) Just to clarify, it is probably the Linuxdoc DTD you're mainly talking about here. Regards, David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 19:52:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA10619 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA10598; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:52:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199701050352.TAA10598@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Usenix FreeBSD BoF when? To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:52:46 -0800 (PST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <32CF1156.41C67EA6@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Jan 4, 97 06:26:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Elischer wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > the BoF (birds of a feather) page at usenix.org > > http://www.usenix.org/ana97/bofs.html > > does not list a FreeBSD BoF! > > > > shall we schedule one? > > 8pm wednsesday or 8pm thursday look good ;) > > > > jmb > > I was just about to post about this! > > sounds a good time to me! > David O'Brien (sp?) wants 8pm thursday, so let's go with that, no? no form to set one up over the web ;( has to be done at the registration desk first one to arrive gets the honors! jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 20:51:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA12074 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 20:51:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA12058; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 20:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA20001; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 20:50:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701050450.UAA20001@antares.aero.org> To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer), hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Usenix FreeBSD BoF when? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 04 Jan 1997 19:52:46 PST." <199701050352.TAA10598@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 20:50:20 -0800 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > no form to set one up over the web ;( > has to be done at the registration desk I did that, when I was doing USENIX things. Very hungry commercial outfits were trying to schedule BoFs months in advance which amounted to no more than live infomercials for their products. I was revulsed and insisted that BoFs be scheduled only at the conference, to preserve some semblance of spontaneity. I borrowed the BoF idea from DECUS, where it amounts to meetings organized by people around topics too new to have been scheduled into the regular program... many regularly scheduled daytime DECUS sessions are (or were) really just BoFs of long standing. I did this long before the IETF and its BoFs were a going concern, ditto Uniforum. Frankly given the alternative I'm real happy with things as they are now. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 4 21:40:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA13827 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:40:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA13822 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA22132; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:39:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:39:16 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Amancio Hasty , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD into larget corp. environment? In-Reply-To: <25593.852370274@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm not convinced about this. It might be possible to do it without > > front-line tech support people and without an office and a pbx; just > > with electronic mail. Then it's not 9-5, it's 24/7. Clients would > > Well, I just don't have a lot of faith in the amount of "comfort > factor" we could truly provide (and morally sell) with purely > email-based tech support. FreeBSD itself is a complicated product and > PCs don't make it any easier by being festering lesions on the face of > the computer industry, the closest thing to a social disease it's > possible to catch with hardware alone. There are just so many > questions you need to ask in diagnosing a mystery problem ("Hey, my > Feeg & Elmer Datahumper 9000 PC Clone spontaneously reboots every > weekday at 9:37am and at 4:53pm the 3rd sunday of every month!") that > email quickly becomes frustrating to both parties. There's just no > substitute for voice. Actually I wasn't suggesting e-mail only; I was suggesting e-mail as an initial point of contact: a list on which a request for help went out that got replied to by one or more people. The client and the expert can then use whatever forms of communication they find useful. Phone, fax, e-mail, and, what may be the best, irc! irc is interactive, unix commands can be run and the output put on the screen, files can be exchanged. > > Plus, what happens if the FreeBSD box in question is providing their > sole email connection? That's not at all a far-fetched scenario. :-) Well, one can't solve all contingencies in advance. But maybe the initial advice ought to be to establish another e-mail connection. > > Don't get me wrong, I far prefer the esthetically pleasing lines of a > company with no offices and a purely virtual presence, overheads > practically nil, but I just don't think it's going to work for the > kinds of customers who need this service most. I can see an > email-only contract being an *option* for those folks who truly do > just need a hand from time to time and are otherwise experts who can > handle their own shops just fine, thank you very much, but that hardly > describes your average customer. > > I think the front line phone-in tech support is pretty much mandatory, > and it's not something that I think it'd be possible to outsource, > either. My view is that phone-in tech support (as an initial contact) is an inherently flawed approach. You cannot possibly pay what anyone good enough can get doing other work (nor would they want to do it). It is especially problematic with a small staff. The person who really knows the answer is invariably at lunch, talking to someone else, or worked the early shift and has already gone home. And you do need shifts--somebody has the get to work on the West Coast at 6 a.m. to talk to the folks on the East Coast. And that just the United States. The calls come in unevenly (Poisson distribution or something, as I recall) so you need an answering machine--and someone has to listen to it and prioritize calls. By the time you call back, they've gone to lunch. Or they're on hold for half an hour. That's expensive. >Knowing the kinds of questions the customers are asking and > what their problems are is pretty invaluable information at the start, > and a 3rd party call center just adds another layer of insulation that > you could really do without. > > The other problem with wholly-distributed phone-in tech support is > that managing it becomes a nightmare. How do you know how effective > your tech support is? Are the customers ending most of their calls > happily with your engineers? How long does each call take? Are > questions being properly assigned to the right people by the > front-line TSRs? If you don't get a handle on those issues pretty > early in the game, your operating costs go way out of control as the > consultants bill a lot of hours in avoidable wastage. I'd want to be > working in the same offices as the tech support department for the > first 6 months, at least, let's put it that way. :) I agree you can't do "distributed" phone support. But as far as finding out if they're happy, that's easy. You send them an e-mail message and ask them. Let's see, three people--Brian Tao, Francisco Reyes, and Annelise Anderson--have now suggested getting rid of the office overhead. But the point is really to do something rather than nothing, and starting with phone-in tech support from an office is sufficiently daunting in terms of costs and organization that it is unlikely to get done at all. And it seems important that something be offered, even if it is not perfect. > > >Billing and paying should scale to the volume of business. > > Oh, absolutely. I'm just trying to establish some reasonable minimums > here. :-) The maximums are a little easier, since that starts to fall > into more straight-forward hourly CE billing / group of highly paid > contractors who fly here and there as needed arrangement. > > Jordan > Annelise