From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 5 00:09:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA03686 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 00:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (ken@mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA03681 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 00:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ken@localhost) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA11854; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:09:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Kenneth Merry Message-Id: <199710050709.BAA11854@pluto.plutotech.com> Subject: anyone seen this? To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:09:47 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28s (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A friend of mine forwarded this to me, it seemed somewhat interesting. http://athena.asms.state.k12.al.us/~mlyohe/dosix/ It can apparantly run a number of different OSes at once, and they claim FreeBSD and Linux binary support.. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@plutotech.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 5 02:28:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA09004 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA08995 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00586; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 18:55:00 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710050925.SAA00586@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Kenneth Merry cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: anyone seen this? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 05 Oct 1997 01:09:47 CST." <199710050709.BAA11854@pluto.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 18:54:58 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > A friend of mine forwarded this to me, it seemed somewhat > interesting. > > http://athena.asms.state.k12.al.us/~mlyohe/dosix/ > > It can apparantly run a number of different OSes at once, and they > claim FreeBSD and Linux binary support.. Looks interesting, and very ambitious. Anal distribution policy at this stage; makes any sort of informed review rather difficult. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 5 04:03:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA12884 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA12874 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panke.panke.de (anonymous216.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.216]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11636; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 13:03:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by panke.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA00492; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:44:23 +0200 (MET DST) To: dg@root.com Cc: Andreas Klemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freefall not reachable from from mae-e-1.e0.crl.com References: <199710041955.MAA13782@implode.root.com> From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 05 Oct 1997 12:44:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Greenman's message of Sat, 04 Oct 1997 12:55:08 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman writes: > >36 bytes from mae-e-1.e0.crl.com (192.41.177.104): Destination Host Unreachable > >Vr HL TOS Len ID Flg off TTL Pro cks Src Dst > > 4 5 00 5400 7206 0 0000 eb 01 b145 194.77.2.34 204.216.27.21 I had the same problem, for more than 12 hours. Symtoms: 1) host unreachable 2) host does not exist 3) very instable connection Other links to freebsd.org worked without problems (e.g. from nacamar.net) > This appears to have been a temporary routing instability. It's working > fine right now... > David Greenman -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 5 15:00:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12444 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:00:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12438 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00633 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710052156.OAA00633@rah.star-gate.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ftp.freebsd.org hovering around 2000 users Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 14:56:44 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just wondering if anything cool has been released recently ..... Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 6 06:09:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA26544 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:09:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA26534 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:09:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199710061308.JAA27697@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:12:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minor error (?) in regex.h In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Simon Shapiro wrote: > Hi Y'all, > > Struggling along with the GIMP (I am a masochist :-), it seems as if > /usr/include/regex.h really needs #include to compile. > Should it be included? If you were truly a masochist, you would be struggling along -AS- the gimp. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net Abusenet: The Misinformation Superhighway From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 6 06:18:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA27100 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA27091 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199710061318.JAA27727@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:22:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Wes Peters cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) In-Reply-To: <199710050350.VAA07212@obie.softweyr.ml.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > Jamie Bowden writes: > > If you can support lynx, you can support anything. I would make that the > > LCD mark. Lynx is apparently gaining nice features while retaining its > > X independence. > > OK, Jamie, now you've stepped in it. You're nominated our Lynx expert. > No, no, don't bother kicking and screaming, we're not going to remove > the nomination and YOU don't get to vote, because you're not on the team > until you become the Lynx expert. Catch-22, see? Damn. Can I kick and scream for fun then? > > How many of the following features does Lynx currently support? > > [ ] HTML 2.0 Forms. > > [ ] Secure document communication via SSL. > > [ ] Local server communication via a UNIX-domain socket. None. I said gaining, not has. :) It is annoying that lynx can't hadle tables well enough to move around in them, but the point was that it works on anything from a serial terminal to X. > > And remember, any of them that are not currently implemented fall into > your hands, because you are now our Lynx expert, right? ;^) > Heh. The last thing you will ever want to deal with is code that I might write. > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com > Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net Abusenet: The Misinformation Superhighway From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 6 15:32:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04594 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:32:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from usr04.primenet.com (root@usr04.primenet.com [206.165.6.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04563 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bkogawa@primenet.com) Received: from primenet.com (root@mailhost01.primenet.com [206.165.5.52]) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07927; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:25:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from foo.primenet.com (ip212.sjc.primenet.com [206.165.96.212]) by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01529; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:25:33 -0700 (MST) Received: (from bkogawa@localhost) by foo.primenet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA19024; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710062232.PAA19024@foo.primenet.com> To: jamie@itribe.net Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.chat References: <8761762480139260000> <199710061318.JAA27727@gatekeeper.itribe.net> From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Wes Peters X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In localhost.freebsd.chat Jamie Bowden writes: >On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Wes Peters wrote: >> How many of the following features does Lynx currently support? >> >> [ ] HTML 2.0 Forms. >> >> [ ] Secure document communication via SSL. >> >> [ ] Local server communication via a UNIX-domain socket. >None. I said gaining, not has. :) It is annoying that lynx can't hadle >tables well enough to move around in them, but the point was that it works >on anything from a serial terminal to X. 1 is the radiobuttion/checkbox/dropdown list/textarea
thingy, right? I'm pretty sure that Lynx does 1 and 2 already, and can be easily hacked to do 3 (it has a mode that lets you run local code as a cgi, which means that Unix-domain sockets should only be a few lines of code away). Table support is still horrid, and frames are somewhat annoying (but they work -- you can navigate them, but you only see 1 frame at a time). -- bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 6 20:50:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA22450 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22445 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA09445; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:04:10 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:04:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710070304.VAA09445@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <199710062232.PAA19024@foo.primenet.com> References: <8761762480139260000> <199710061318.JAA27727@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <199710062232.PAA19024@foo.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Wes Peters wrote: % How many of the following features does Lynx currently support? % % [ ] HTML 2.0 Forms. % % [ ] Secure document communication via SSL. % % [ ] Local server communication via a UNIX-domain socket. Bryan K. Ogawa writes: > 1 is the radiobuttion/checkbox/dropdown list/textarea
> thingy, right? Yup. > I'm pretty sure that Lynx does 1 and 2 already, and can be easily > hacked to do 3 (it has a mode that lets you run local code as a cgi, > which means that Unix-domain sockets should only be a few lines of > code away). I thought Lynx supported forms. SSL I'm not certain of, and UNIX- domain sockets was a long shot. Of course, the Usockets would be the easiest to hack in (probably). > Table support is still horrid, and frames are somewhat annoying (but > they work -- you can navigate them, but you only see 1 frame at a > time). You can easily do a good forms interface without frames, and sort of do a forms interface without tables. We can also put out variant documents, so we send the "pretty" ones to Netscape et al, and the simple ones to "simple" browsers like Lynx. This inevitably leads to "who doesn't your server recognize XyzzySurfer as a Java-enabled, forms- processing monster?" but we don't have to be perfect, just reasonably good. ;^) Plus, *I* wouldn't plan to develop the pretty forms myself, this falls in the category of embellishments. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 6 22:06:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26347 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (jonny@[146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26340 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA07184; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:06:21 -0200 (EDT) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199710070506.DAA07184@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/net/wide-dhcp/patches patch-be patch-az In-Reply-To: <199710070340.UAA04230@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> from Satoshi Asami at "Oct 6, 97 08:40:53 pm" To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:06:20 -0200 (EDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(Satoshi Asami) // * Hey, /var/tmp is not good also. I like to be free to remove EVERYTHING // * in /tmp and /var/tmp whenever I want. What about /var/db ? The isc-dhcp // * port uses this and I like it. // // I don't disagree with /var/db, but your "EVERYTHING" above is bogus. ;) // See /var/tmp/vi.recover. If an user forget a file in /var/tmp, probably he does not need it. :) Even if it's vi.recover. My lab usually has lots of very old recover files just because users don't even know that vi has a -r feature. IF the user knows vi's -r option, and IF he really needs the file, he'll recover it ASAP. Most of the times I ever needed -r is because of an unexpected reboot. Most of these because I did the reboot myself, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. :^) // // Satoshi // Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 6 22:33:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28008 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:33:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust32.max17.washington.dc.ms.uu.net [153.34.57.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28000 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:33:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@wakky.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id BAA15057; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19971007013248.30861@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:32:48 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <8761762480139260000> <199710061318.JAA27727@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <199710062232.PAA19024@foo.primenet.com> <199710070304.VAA09445@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199710070304.VAA09445@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Oct 06, 1997 at 09:04:10PM -0600 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 06, 1997 at 09:04:10PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > I thought Lynx supported forms. It does. In fact, every version I've used (2.4.2, 2.6, and 2.7) does. >SSL I'm not certain of, No, it doesn't do "secure documents", if that's what you mean. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 01:43:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09702 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dumbwinter.logic.it (mod9.logic.it [195.120.151.25] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA09685 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:42:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: (qmail 354 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Oct 1997 08:39:27 -0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:39:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: SUMMARY: Chuck image being used in a sex ad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Marco Molteni wrote: > I just discovered our little Chuck (the BSD daemon) being > used for a commercial banner. You can have a look at it at > http://www.erosclub.it/messag.htm, pointing to a would-be > herbalist's shop. The text is in italian, and means: "Now you can > improve or find again your sexual power". > > Obviously, I *hate* seeing Chuck being used in a commercial > banner. If someone at FreeBSD is willing to contact them, I'll be > pleased to translate from english to italian. Short after having posted this message, I got a reply from Kirk McKusick, the copyright holder of the BSD Daemon. He asked me to translate a message to the offending webmaster, saying to refrain from using the BSD daemon. The webmaster removed the daemon image, saying that he got the banner from a client, and that he wasn't aware of the copyright. P.S. As Kirk pointed out to me, the BSD daemon hasn't a name, and is proud of it. So don't call him Chuck. Call him "the BSD daemon". Cheers Marco Molteni "Whuffo you jump out of them airplanes?" From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 02:34:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA12769 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 02:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA12761 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 02:34:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA27316; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:03:55 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971007190355.52064@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:03:55 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Marco Molteni Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SUMMARY: Chuck image being used in a sex ad References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Marco Molteni on Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 10:39:26AM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 10:39:26AM +0200, Marco Molteni wrote: > On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Marco Molteni wrote: > >> I just discovered our little Chuck (the BSD daemon) being >> used for a commercial banner. You can have a look at it at >> http://www.erosclub.it/messag.htm, pointing to a would-be >> herbalist's shop. The text is in italian, and means: "Now you can >> improve or find again your sexual power". >> >> Obviously, I *hate* seeing Chuck being used in a commercial >> banner. If someone at FreeBSD is willing to contact them, I'll be >> pleased to translate from english to italian. > > Short after having posted this message, I got a reply from Kirk > McKusick, the copyright holder of the BSD Daemon. He asked me to > translate a message to the offending webmaster, saying to refrain > from using the BSD daemon. The webmaster removed the daemon image, > saying that he got the banner from a client, and that he wasn't > aware of the copyright. Good to hear. > P.S. As Kirk pointed out to me, the BSD daemon hasn't a name, and is > proud of it. So don't call him Chuck. Call him "the BSD daemon". We've discussed this a number of times already. Kirk claims that it was a "Walnut Creek marketing droid" who invented the name Chuck. A number of the FreeBSD people, I think including Jordan, claim that the name has been around a lot longer, and that de facto, his name *is* Chuck. Personally, I dislike the name "Chuck". If he has to have a name (which Kirk thinks he shouldn't), I think he should be called bsdd. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 03:35:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA15994 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:35:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA15985 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA28179; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:34:28 -0700 (PDT) To: Greg Lehey cc: Marco Molteni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SUMMARY: Chuck image being used in a sex ad In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Oct 1997 19:03:55 +0930." <19971007190355.52064@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 03:34:27 -0700 Message-ID: <28148.876220467@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We've discussed this a number of times already. Kirk claims that it > was a "Walnut Creek marketing droid" who invented the name Chuck. A > number of the FreeBSD people, I think including Jordan, claim that the > name has been around a lot longer, and that de facto, his name *is* > Chuck. I first heard him called Chuck back in 1985 sometime, at UCB. My first reaction was also "*what?*" since it seemed a strange name indeed for an imp with sneakers, but it's sort of grown on my since then. Having to say "the bsd daemon" when referring to the little guy is a bit heavy on the d's and I think he started getting called Chuck more for convenience than anything else ("pick something short"). :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 03:54:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA16668 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:54:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from usr09.primenet.com (root@usr09.primenet.com [206.165.6.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA16662 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bkogawa@primenet.com) Received: from primenet.com (root@mailhost01.primenet.com [206.165.5.52]) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22734; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:54:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from foo.primenet.com (ip216.sjc.primenet.com [206.165.96.216]) by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA16122; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 03:53:59 -0700 (MST) Received: (from bkogawa@localhost) by foo.primenet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA26353; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710071100.EAA26353@foo.primenet.com> To: hcremean@vt.edu Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.chat References: <8761762480139260000> <199710061318.JAA27727@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <199710062232.PAA19024@foo.primenet.com> <199710070304.VAA09445@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19971007013248.30861@wakky.dyn.ml.org> From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Wes Peters X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In localhost.freebsd.chat you write: >On Mon, Oct 06, 1997 at 09:04:10PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >> I thought Lynx supported forms. >It does. In fact, every version I've used (2.4.2, 2.6, and 2.7) does. >>SSL I'm not certain of, >No, it doesn't do "secure documents", if that's what you mean. Actually, I confirmed that the patches are out there to add https support to Lynx via SSLeay. See: http://www.crl.com/%7Esubir/lynx/patches.html for details. It's not in the main releases because of US crypto regulations. -- bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 04:33:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA18605 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA18595 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@lakewood.com) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (ppp3.monmouth.com [205.164.220.35]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA20699; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id HAA05901 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:33:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199710071133.HAA05901@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: UUCP (important clarification) In-Reply-To: <19971007144257.56917@lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Oct 7, 97 02:42:57 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, cah@lakewood.com (Carolyn Pechter) Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Masochistic 8-) > > > > UUCP is much easier to configure than, say gated.conf! > > Interesting discussion. I didn't realize how many UUCP users there > are still out there, and how protective they are :-) > > Greg > It comes from the days of 1200 baud news feeds. There are many of us who were looked at as gods because we were the keepers of the newsfeed at work and could grant enlightenment to people with home PC's by slipping them a feed without the management knowing. My wife first ran across me while attempting to weasel a feed out of Concurrent Computer to her home BBS and 3b2/300. Them was the good old days. 2400 baud news feeds, contents, no spam. Them bits travelled up hill to the news spool both ways at 2400 baud, son. And we didn't have none of those graphic screens. We used rn and B-news like you was supposed to. 8-) Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 05:50:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA23226 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:50:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from oldman.steinkamm.com (arne@OldMan.Steinkamm.COM [194.127.175.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA23214 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:50:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arne@oldman.steinkamm.com) Received: (from arne@localhost) by oldman.steinkamm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25378; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:49:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: Arne Steinkamm Message-Id: <199710071249.OAA25378@oldman.steinkamm.com> Subject: Re: UUCP (important clarification) To: pechter@lakewood.com Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:49:23 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, cah@lakewood.com In-Reply-To: <199710071133.HAA05901@i4got.lakewood.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Oct 7, 97 07:33:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It comes from the days of 1200 baud news feeds. There are many of us > who were looked at as gods because we were the keepers of the newsfeed > at work and could grant enlightenment to people with home PC's by slipping > them a feed without the management knowing. > > My wife first ran across me while attempting to weasel a feed out of > Concurrent Computer to her home BBS and 3b2/300. > > Them was the good old days. 2400 baud news feeds, contents, no spam. > Them bits travelled up hill to the news spool both ways at 2400 baud, son. > And we didn't have none of those graphic screens. We used rn and B-news > like you was supposed to. 8-) After throwing away notes B-News 2.11.19 was one of the most stable news software I ever saw :-) I remember the day we sat around a table and looked on the first 2400 baud modem we ever saw... It was a better time... no spam but many many GOOD news .//. Arme -- Arne Steinkamm | Mail (MIME): Arne@Steinkamm.COM IRC: Arne Tel.: +49.89.299.756 | URL: http://WWW.Steinkamm.COM/ NIC-Handle: AS306 Robert-Koch-Str. 4 | "There's coffee in that nebula" D-80538 Muenchen | Cptn. Kathryn Janeway, ST:VOY - The Cloud From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 14:49:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25686 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25681 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:48:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15962 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:00:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199710072100.RAA15962@hda.hda.com> Subject: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:00:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from John C Green Jr ----- Can anyone comment on this that was sent to the private alliant-alumni list in the wake of the SGI loss and Dec's apparent readiness to dump Alpha: > Unix has stalled with an install rate of under 1 Million > boxes per year; it was as many as 720K boxes in 1993. Wintel > will ship about 83 Million this year up substantially from > last year. Windows/NT overtook all Unixes combined several > quarters ago in boxes shipped. I'll grant the boxes shipped part, since the Internet OS's don't ship in boxes. Are there any remotely hard numbers about FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and Linux? The observation is from: > -- > John C Green Jr > Internet Marketing and Business Development > Website Development and Project Management > 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 > Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com I'll summarize to him later. -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 17:06:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03767 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03762 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA04921; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:33:26 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971008093326.22160@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:33:26 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Arne Steinkamm Cc: pechter@lakewood.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, cah@lakewood.com Subject: Re: UUCP (important clarification) References: <199710071133.HAA05901@i4got.lakewood.com> <199710071249.OAA25378@oldman.steinkamm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710071249.OAA25378@oldman.steinkamm.com>; from Arne Steinkamm on Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 02:49:23PM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 02:49:23PM +0200, Arne Steinkamm wrote: > > >> It comes from the days of 1200 baud news feeds. There are many of us >> who were looked at as gods because we were the keepers of the newsfeed >> at work and could grant enlightenment to people with home PC's by slipping >> them a feed without the management knowing. >> >> My wife first ran across me while attempting to weasel a feed out of >> Concurrent Computer to her home BBS and 3b2/300. >> >> Them was the good old days. 2400 baud news feeds, contents, no spam. >> Them bits travelled up hill to the news spool both ways at 2400 baud, son. >> And we didn't have none of those graphic screens. We used rn and B-news >> like you was supposed to. 8-) > > After throwing away notes B-News 2.11.19 was one of the most stable > news software I ever saw :-) > > I remember the day we sat around a table and looked on the first > 2400 baud modem we ever saw... Yes, those were fun days. And we were still fighting customers who refused to install 1200 bps modems, and instead ran 300 bps. We were told that some phone nets weren't good enough to run 1200 bps. > It was a better time... no spam but many many GOOD news Tell me about it. I installed nntp a few weeks back, and the news that came in has been so memorable that I've stopped the feed again. Ah, the good old days. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 17:10:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04005 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:10:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03991; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:10:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA04958; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:40:07 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971008094007.00812@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:40:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wilko Bulte Cc: phk@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: stick this in the faq/handbook ? References: <19971007145535.48992@lemis.com> <199710071844.TAA01972@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710071844.TAA01972@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 07:44:31PM +0100 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 07:44:31PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > As Greg Lehey wrote... >> On Mon, Oct 06, 1997 at 11:32:26AM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: (moved to -chat) >>> Next determine what order your parameters come in: >>> >>> Power: >>> >>> If Battery life is important make sure that you can charge the >>> batteries while they're not in the computer (very handy in planes >>>> -) >> >> JOOI, where do you recharge them in planes? > > In the loo ;-) You can even sit there and work on the laptop while it > charges. Don't do it in the back of a DC10, it'll give you a hearing problem > pretty soon 8-) So *now* I know why I can never get into a toilet on these long intercontinental flights. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 17:34:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05234 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:34:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05192 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:34:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA05032; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:03:45 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971008100345.50071@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:03:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Peter Dufault Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) References: <199710072100.RAA15962@hda.hda.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710072100.RAA15962@hda.hda.com>; from Peter Dufault on Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 05:00:13PM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 05:00:13PM -0400, Peter Dufault wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from John C Green Jr ----- > > Can anyone comment on this that was sent to the private > alliant-alumni list in the wake of the SGI loss Which SGI loss? Have I missed something? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 21:38:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17993 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17978 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA00685; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:40:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:40:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710080440.WAA00685@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Bryan K. Ogawa" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <199710071100.EAA26353@foo.primenet.com> References: <8761762480139260000> <199710061318.JAA27727@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <199710062232.PAA19024@foo.primenet.com> <199710070304.VAA09445@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19971007013248.30861@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <199710071100.EAA26353@foo.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bryan K. Ogawa writes: > Actually, I confirmed that the patches are out there to add https > support to Lynx via SSLeay. See: > > http://www.crl.com/%7Esubir/lynx/patches.html > > for details. It's not in the main releases because of US crypto > regulations. Great! Now, has anybody tried this? If not, I'll be installing a ton of new stuff once 2.2.5 is out, and will get Lynx source, SSLeay, the above patches, etc, etc all installed and see if I can make it work. Plus, there should be some good examples of using SSLeay sockets in the patches, eh? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 21:51:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18462 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18457 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:51:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA00697; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:53:50 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:53:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710080453.WAA00697@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Peter Dufault CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710072100.RAA15962@hda.hda.com> References: <199710072100.RAA15962@hda.hda.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Dufault writes: > ----- Forwarded message from John C Green Jr ----- > > Can anyone comment on this that was sent to the private > alliant-alumni list in the wake of the SGI loss and Dec's > apparent readiness to dump Alpha: > > > Unix has stalled with an install rate of under 1 Million > > boxes per year; it was as many as 720K boxes in 1993. Wintel > > will ship about 83 Million this year up substantially from > > last year. Windows/NT overtook all Unixes combined several > > quarters ago in boxes shipped. > > I'll grant the boxes shipped part, since the Internet OS's don't > ship in boxes. > > Are there any remotely hard numbers about FreeBSD, NetBSD, > OpenBSD and Linux? Are there any remotely hard numbers about Solaris (any version), HP/UX, AIX, or even WinNT? Nope? Pretty hard to tell if the market has stalled, isn't it? Think this guy included *BSD, Linux, or even SCO shipments? Or was he just counting "boxes" from the big UNIX guys? And, exactly what is UNIX? Should the millions of licenses for VxWorks, QNX, LynxOS, and other UNIX-like embedded systems count? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 22:28:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20712 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:28:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20459 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:24:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00955; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:51:47 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710080521.OAA00955@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wes Peters cc: Peter Dufault , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Oct 1997 22:53:50 CST." <199710080453.WAA00697@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 14:51:46 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Think this guy included *BSD, Linux, or even SCO shipments? Nope. And in fact BSD/Linux/SCO/Intel Solaris systems probably get counted as "Wintel" if they go onto shrinkwrap hardware due to the good ol' OEM licensing scheme that MS use. > Or was he > just counting "boxes" from the big UNIX guys? And, exactly what is > UNIX? Should the millions of licenses for VxWorks, QNX, LynxOS, and > other UNIX-like embedded systems count? It's almost certain that this posting was either a troll or someone trying to angle things to their advantage. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 7 23:08:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23037 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:08:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23029 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01099 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:35:41 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710080605.PAA01099@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: group assignments from make world. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Oct 1997 21:53:12 MST." <22723.876286392@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 15:35:41 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Maybe it's time to institute something a little bit closer to the > XFree86 Project's BETA program? Not all the way in that direction, > where early access is really restricted quite tightly, but something > which might require one to jump through just a few more hoops first > (at a minimum, you'd need to subscribe to the appropriate list and, if > you left it, so would your "license to cvsup" :-). Too draconian? > Not draconian enough? :-) Encrypt the CVSup output based on a key posted weekly to the relevant lists. Change the key frequently. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 02:43:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA07404 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:43:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@mail.ftf.dk [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA07396 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00036; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:14:13 +0200 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA25847; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:55:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id LAA10496; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:42:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19971008114219.29025@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:42:19 +0200 From: Philippe Regnauld To: Clint Wolff Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: A name for a FreeBSD cluster-type config (Was: Building parallel "Beowulf-style" supercomputers with FreeBSD) References: <9710072227.AA04198@longs.colorado.cirrus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: Main Body X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <9710072227.AA04198@longs.colorado.cirrus.com>; from Clint Wolff on Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 04:27:05PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved Cc: to -chat] Clint Wolff writes: > Daemonds (In the rough?) I like that! It's got a 'ring' to it. And it had multiple facets :-) -- -- Phil -[ Philippe Regnauld / Systems Administrator / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk ]- -[ Location.: +55.4N +11.3E PGP Key: finger regnauld@hotel.prosa.dk ]- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 02:44:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA07532 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@mail.ftf.dk [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA07521 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:44:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00065; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:15:20 +0200 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA25851; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:56:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id LAA10510; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:43:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19971008114326.17834@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:43:26 +0200 From: Philippe Regnauld To: "marino.ladavac@siemens.at" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: A name for a FreeBSD cluster-type config (Was: Building parallel "Beowulf-style" supercomputers with FreeBSD) References: <199710080803.KAA19138@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: Main Body X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199710080803.KAA19138@ws6423.gud.siemens.at>; from marino.ladavac@siemens.at on Wed, Oct 08, 1997 at 10:03:07AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk marino.ladavac@siemens.at writes: > Phalanx n. 1 (in ancient Greece) close formation, esp. of infantry ready > for battle. I'm surprised no one ever suggested "LEMMINGS" -- -- Phil -[ Philippe Regnauld / Systems Administrator / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk ]- -[ Location.: +55.4N +11.3E PGP Key: finger regnauld@hotel.prosa.dk ]- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 02:51:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA07875 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:51:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA07870 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lada@ws6303.gud.siemens.at) Received: from ws6303-f (root@firix [10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at with ESMTP id LAA01043; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:49:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ws6423.gud.siemens.at (ws6423-f) by ws6303-f with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA047614167; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:49:27 +0200 Received: by ws6423.gud.siemens.at (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA29271; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:48:18 +0200 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:48:18 +0200 From: lada@ws6303.gud.siemens.at (marino.ladavac@siemens.at) Message-Id: <199710080948.LAA29271@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> To: lada@ws6303-f, regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk Subject: Re: A name for a FreeBSD cluster-type config (Was: Building parallel "Beowulf-style" supercomputers with FreeBSD) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: wXLedEhkFOpzbeEbAN5GcQ== Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk Wed Oct 8 11:44:08 MET 1997 > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:43:26 +0200 > From: Philippe Regnauld > To: "marino.ladavac@siemens.at" > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: A name for a FreeBSD cluster-type config (Was: Building parallel "Beowulf-style" supercomputers with FreeBSD) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Description: Main Body > X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 > Philippe wrote: > marino.ladavac@siemens.at writes: > > > Phalanx n. 1 (in ancient Greece) close formation, esp. of infantry ready > > for battle. > > I'm surprised no one ever suggested "LEMMINGS" Perhaps because they are somewhat suicidal. Let's see: Lemming #1: Yes, I'll panic my kernel now. Lemming #2-#N: Me too! *CRASH* Not a very good scenario. /Marino From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 04:34:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA12232 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:34:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA12221 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:34:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17760; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:40:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199710081040.GAA17760@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710080521.OAA00955@word.smith.net.au> from Mike Smith at "Oct 8, 97 02:51:46 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Think this guy included *BSD, Linux, or even SCO shipments? > > Nope. And in fact BSD/Linux/SCO/Intel Solaris systems probably get > counted as "Wintel" if they go onto shrinkwrap hardware due to the good > ol' OEM licensing scheme that MS use. > > > Or was he > > just counting "boxes" from the big UNIX guys? And, exactly what is > > UNIX? Should the millions of licenses for VxWorks, QNX, LynxOS, and > > other UNIX-like embedded systems count? > > It's almost certain that this posting was either a troll or someone > trying to angle things to their advantage. No, neither - this was a private mailing list and JG does his research. He was a bit of a canary in the coal mine with well timed ship-jumping at Alliant, though honestly at that point the gasses were visible enough he was more of an ostrich in the coal mine. Noting the tone some of the responses are taking and not singling out Mike, PLEASE NO ONE GO SENDING HIM NASTY MESSAGES. I thought it important for attribution to leave his name in. The reason I forwarded this is it points out the lack of info on the Internet operating systems (sounds much better than "freeware" or "shareware") even for someone who tends to do his research carefully. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 05:10:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA13614 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:10:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA13609 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:10:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04024; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:30:26 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710081200.VAA04024@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Peter Dufault cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Oct 1997 06:40:01 -0400." <199710081040.GAA17760@hda.hda.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 21:30:25 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Think this guy included *BSD, Linux, or even SCO shipments? > > > > Nope. And in fact BSD/Linux/SCO/Intel Solaris systems probably get > > counted as "Wintel" if they go onto shrinkwrap hardware due to the good > > ol' OEM licensing scheme that MS use. > > > > > Or was he > > > just counting "boxes" from the big UNIX guys? And, exactly what is > > > UNIX? Should the millions of licenses for VxWorks, QNX, LynxOS, and > > > other UNIX-like embedded systems count? > > > > It's almost certain that this posting was either a troll or someone > > trying to angle things to their advantage. > > No, neither - this was a private mailing list and JG does his > research. He was a bit of a canary in the coal mine with well > timed ship-jumping at Alliant, though honestly at that point the > gasses were visible enough he was more of an ostrich in the coal > mine. If he really does his research, why isn't he qualifying the fact that it's very hard to determine the accuracy of some of the numbers he's quoting? How come there's no qualification of the numbers for the Unix systems, eg. number of licenses shipped or number of new boxes shipped? Workstation hardware generally has a lifetime 2 or 3 times that of PC hardware (being conservative); it's not uncommon for a single system to wear 4 or more OS releases, wheras with a Wintel system you're normally changing hardware faster than you are software. It's also little short of ludicrous to cross-compare "Wintel" as a whole against the workstation market; somewhat like comparing the market for ballpoint pens against that for fountain pens. Ballpoints rule the earth by volume, but I still have no trouble sourcing fountain pens and they show no sign of becoming less popular. This sort of slippery qualification was my primary justification for concluding that the numbers were gathered in support of a conclusion, rather than the conclusion reached in light of the numbers. > Noting the tone some of the responses are taking and not singling > out Mike, PLEASE NO ONE GO SENDING HIM NASTY MESSAGES. I thought > it important for attribution to leave his name in. I had no intention of leaping down his throat; I would *hope* that the other readers here have at least as much sense. > The reason I forwarded this is it points out the lack of info on > the Internet operating systems (sounds much better than "freeware" > or "shareware") even for someone who tends to do his research > carefully. I wish he'd actually said something like that, rather than dismissed "no information" as meaning "no users". From generally available information I can offer that FreeBSD is Walnut Creek's second most popular OS product, and that about twelve months ago Jordan commented that they were selling "thousands" of copies a month. I don't expect that it's going any slower than that now, and that completely disregards the number of systems installed off the 'net, or sourced from other vendors, etc. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 05:12:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA13733 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:12:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA13711 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:12:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA25302; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:08:40 -0700 (PDT) To: Peter Dufault cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Oct 1997 06:40:01 EDT." <199710081040.GAA17760@hda.hda.com> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 05:08:40 -0700 Message-ID: <25299.876312520@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The reason I forwarded this is it points out the lack of info on > the Internet operating systems (sounds much better than "freeware" > or "shareware") even for someone who tends to do his research > carefully. Rumors of UNIX demise are both frequent and exaggerated. I saw nothing new or interesting in JG's message, myself. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 05:51:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA15419 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA15414 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA17975; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:00:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710081200.VAA04024@word.smith.net.au> from Mike Smith at "Oct 8, 97 09:30:25 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If he really does his research, why isn't he qualifying the fact that > it's very hard to determine the accuracy of some of the numbers he's > quoting? How come there's no qualification of the numbers for the Unix > systems, eg. number of licenses shipped or number of new boxes shipped? I did everyone a disservice by not providing background, and by taking one paragraph and forwarding it. What I noticed was that someone who generally knows what he is talking about in an informal setting (note - informal) is not considering the internet OS's. And it is the same across the board - I may read "Linux" in a New York Times article about "hackers" or "computer security experts with ponytails", but I'll never see it in a discussion of "Windows NT overtakes Unix". > Workstation hardware generally has a lifetime 2 or 3 times that of PC > hardware (being conservative); it's not uncommon for a single system to > wear 4 or more OS releases, wheras with a Wintel system you're normally > changing hardware faster than you are software. > > It's also little short of ludicrous to cross-compare "Wintel" as a whole > against the workstation market; somewhat like comparing the market for > ballpoint pens against that for fountain pens. Ballpoints rule the > earth by volume, but I still have no trouble sourcing fountain pens and > they show no sign of becoming less popular. Bring your own fountain pen. Company standardization on ball point pens is not the same as company standardization on WNT. I think "ludicrous" is the wrong word. Maybe "inadequate" or "distressing". The fact is that WNT will ship more than Unix if it hasn't already, I was just surprised that it had happened. Gates waved his hand a few days ago and announced that business users should now switch to NT, and that home computers should follow after W98. I'm not sure how much longer it will be feasible for me to decline to take on primarily Windows projects. Unix - the Cobol of the next millenium. What I wonder is Linux / *BSD nothing but hobbyist low level background noise such that it is appropriate that it never show up in any analysis in the major media. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 06:30:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA17170 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:30:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA17136 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 21669 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Oct 1997 13:30:29 -0000 Message-ID: <19971008153029.06174@paert.tse-online.de> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:30:29 +0200 From: braukmann@tse-online.de To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A name for a FreeBSD cluster-type config (Was: Building parallel "Beowulf-style" supercomputers with FreeBSD) References: <199710080803.KAA19138@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> <19971008114326.17834@deepo.prosa.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <19971008114326.17834@deepo.prosa.dk>; from Philippe Regnauld on Wed, Oct 08, 1997 at 11:43:26AM +0200 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jump in, On Wed, Oct 08, 1997 at 11:43:26AM +0200, Philippe Regnauld wrote: > > Phalanx n. 1 (in ancient Greece) close formation, esp. of infantry ready > > for battle. > I'm surprised no one ever suggested "LEMMINGS" hmm, ... seems to be a nice name for a Windows NT cluster?-) -- /// TSE TeleService GmbH | Gsf: Arne Reuter | /// Hovestrasse 14 | Andreas Braukmann | We do it with /// D-48351 Everswinkel | HRB: 1430, AG WAF | FreeBSD/SMP /// ------------------------------------------------------------------- /// PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key /// Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 08:21:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23593 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (dynamic5.pm09.sf1.best.com [206.184.192.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23587 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:21:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA20301; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19971008082055.17627@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:20:55 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Philippe Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A name for a FreeBSD cluster-type config (Was: Building parallel "Beowulf-style" supercomputers with FreeBSD) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199710080803.KAA19138@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> <19971008114326.17834@deepo.prosa.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <19971008114326.17834@deepo.prosa.dk>; from Philippe Regnauld on Wed, Oct 08, 1997 at 11:43:26AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 08, 1997 at 11:43:26AM +0200, Philippe Regnauld wrote: > marino.ladavac@siemens.at writes: > > > Phalanx n. 1 (in ancient Greece) close formation, esp. of infantry ready > > for battle. > > I'm surprised no one ever suggested "LEMMINGS" > I'm still a little confused what Beowulf has to do with clusters. It has been a long time since I read it. But if we are going to use ancient names why not Gilgamesh or Golem or even Draco. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 08:22:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23649 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:22:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23644 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:22:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA26262; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:20:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Peter Dufault cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Oct 1997 08:00:20 EDT." <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 08:20:35 -0700 Message-ID: <26258.876324035@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > after W98. I'm not sure how much longer it will be feasible for > me to decline to take on primarily Windows projects. Unix - the > Cobol of the next millenium. Well, the overall market is still expanding, so even in the face of declining market share it's still possible for the small fry like us to experience growth. We're not on the cover of The Wall St. Journal, no, but we're hardly declining in number either. > What I wonder is Linux / *BSD nothing but hobbyist low level > background noise such that it is appropriate that it never show up > in any analysis in the major media. Nor do the likes of SCO, Solaris or many of our erstwhile compatriots. I think Unix just doesn't push the right buttons to appeal to the media. It's techie driven and proud of it, standing firmly in its corner of the basketball court and going "you talkin' to us? You guys wanna start somethin'? Well c'mon over here then! No, we're not going over there, you come over here and we'll fight! We ain't movin!" :-) The press needs a bit more stroking than that if you want to get its attention. :) Unix also lost any chance it might have had for "total victory" about 10 years ago, when it Balkanized itself instead of fighting its external threats, so why even worry about that particular lost cause? I still think that we can find some measure of success in turning away from the main axis of the battle and looking for smaller pockets of territory to capture, things which require much higher-tech solutions than Redmond is able to provide. Looking on the bright side, Windows has also soaked up a certain class of user that, frankly, I really don't think that the Unix community ever even really honestly wanted to have. Presenting technology in a way that Ma and Pa Kettle can use it is *hard*, not to mention the tech support involved, and rather than fighting Redmond all these years I almost wonder that we didn't just say "They've got the front-end issues covered and we don't have to deal with those icky users? Fantastic! We'll be left alone to deal with the infrastructure issues then!" rather than getting all up-in-arms over Microsoft. I guess Bill just got so big so fast that everyone else just felt obliged to attack, or something. :) I think that technologies like vxWorks and QNX are doing pretty well for themselves in the embedded systems market, for example, and much of the core technology in Unix could be highly applicable to this same sort of work if some serious attention were paid to structuring it more as a set of pluggable components and providing better real-time capabilities for the people who need that sort of thing. FreeBSD in the recording studio, anyone? :) Seriously - such markets may be comparatively small but they're still enough to keep a fair number of Unix hackers gainfully employed. If you asked me what I thought the real challenge ahead for Unix was, I'd say it was in fulfilling its own original promise, not in trying to become Billy's personal nightmare. We need to take careful stock of the various shortcomings which are standing in the way of Unix's becoming the ultimate engineer's toolbox and solve them. We need to take the best ideas from the embedded OSes, like having dynamically-loadable-everything, a light-weight GUI subsystem, POSIX real-time extensions, etc. and implement them. We need to fix Unix's existing services so that they Just Work and you don't have big warning signs over things like remote file locking which say "out of order" and cause an engineer to mistrust his tools. Make the components easily separable so that it's possible to have only as much "Unix" as you want for a given application. Make it all fast as heck. Play to Unix's existing strengths, basically, and continue to innovate along the same lines that our spiritual forefathers (so to speak) had in mind. I think the original folks were after a really cool toolbox, basically, and they succeeded admirably enough to draw a whole host of other tool-users into what they hardly expected would quickly become a Craftsmen's Cult of sorts. ;-) If we're going to carve out and hold a credible niche for ourselves in Mr. Bill's world, we're going need to get back to the fundamentals and stop thinking about painting a happy face on the outside of the toolbox as much as making the tools inside high quality instruments of software craftsmanship. That's where "commercial UNIX" essentially went down the wrong path, in my opinion. Marketing was brought in without any clear idea as to what it was they were trying to sell and so they kind of looked over their shoulders and tried to sell it like the other guys were selling their OSes. Unfortunately, the "other guys" were Microsoft, IBM and Apple in this case and very bad examples for our impressionable little marketdroids, their requests eventually resulting in the diversion of engineering resources into a battle for the desktop which could not be won and should never have been fought in the first place. They went astray and they paid the price. Anyway, maybe that's our secret weapon. No marketing department. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 10:00:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00403 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:00:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00398 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA26903; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Simon Shapiro cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: group assignments from make world. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Oct 1997 09:15:48 PDT." Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 09:59:10 -0700 Message-ID: <26899.876329950@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Redirected to -chat; we've left the charter of -hackers now] > This I do not understand. One of the major reasons for working on a > project like this, in a professional (vs. hobby, serious as it may be) > capacity, is the open access to the development crew. Which, like all limited resources, must be used wisely, that's all I'm trying to tell you. If you get people to sign up with a "you're on your own with this!" disclaimer, it achieves several important aims: 1. It weeds out those who are truly not *ready* for this challenge and should stick to the major releases (which the developers do indeed do their best to support) until they're more confident in their abilities and have learned more about the various project infrastructure features (like the mailing list search too). 2. It makes those who do commit to this realize that they're essentially skiing off the trails and if they do something foolish, the ski patrol will be by to rescue them only by chance or exceptional charity. Knowing this tends to make one a bit more careful, and that's a good thing. It also gives us the option of leaving you to die in the snow if we really just don't feel like leaving the ski lodge that evening. ;-) 3. Knowing that rescue opportunities are limited and that the territory is dangerous, the wise user will invest just a bit more time in mastering his (or her) equipment and reading up on the subject. If anything can motivate our users to read the docs at all, perhaps it's this. ;) So there's more to this mindset than just trying to deflect too many questions from the electronic equivalent of several thousand people looking over one's shoulder, people also need to go into something like -stable or -current with their eyes fully open, and "yer on yer own, kid." appears to be a time-tested eye-opener. ;) The reality is also that many developers still *do* help anyone with a legitimate question, often devoting many hours to this (like Joerg, our one-man USENET tech support team, or Doug White, our one-man freebsd-questions tech support team!), but it needs to be seen by the users as the charitable donation that it is and no guarantee of any further such support in the future - it's purely take it as you go*. Jordan * Like life. :) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 11:15:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05030 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sendero-ppp.i-connect.net (sendero-ppp.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05000 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:15:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-ppp.i-connect.net) Received: (qmail 15780 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Oct 1997 18:15:08 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2-alpha-100597 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <26899.876329950@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Atlas Telecom From: Simon Shapiro To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: group assignments from make world. Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi "Jordan K. Hubbard"; On 08-Oct-97 you wrote: > [Redirected to -chat; we've left the charter of -hackers now] Yup. you practice what you teach... ... > So there's more to this mindset than just trying to deflect too many > questions from the electronic equivalent of several thousand people > looking over one's shoulder, people also need to go into something > like -stable or -current with their eyes fully open, and "yer on yer > own, kid." appears to be a time-tested eye-opener. ;) I think we may be talking past each other, while agreeing on two different things: Let's, for example, take the PPP errors I am getting with -current. I posted (and responded to) several message on this subject. I did so, because I detected an error condition I though is not always obvious. My goal wa to raise the issue and offer an opportunity, to the proper party (many times I do not know who that may be) to know that an error condition exists and to use my facilities to test for it; Not every error is reproducable everywhere. Right? Now, If my purpose was to just have my connection to the office working, solving ``my'' problem, then we have a legitimate issue in re-directing the inquiry to reduce traffic. If my attitude would have been ``The darn FreeBSD thing is broken again, YOU fix it!'', then I should switch to M$ or SUN for a while. I understand that if -current is broken, I have no claim, except for trying to help fix it. I also understand that I am owed as much as I paid. As I do not pay the FreeBSD project much, not much is owed to me, -current -stable or otherwise. My point is that the lines are blurry here, it is a value problem, not a concept problem. If I choose to depreciate the list with ``you fix my problem because you owe me'' things, I am choosing the wrong. If I choose to ask questions that are the results of problems, instability, breakage, lack of documentation, etc. then I am choosing the right (all my opinion). Maybe splitting the hackers list into SCSI (already there), kernel, networking, archeology (UUCP :-), etc. will allow us to focus more clearly on what we choose to track. This in addition to a bit of policing (self and otherwise) will greatly help. > The reality is also that many developers still *do* help anyone with a > legitimate question, often devoting many hours to this (like Joerg, > our one-man USENET tech support team, or Doug White, our one-man > freebsd-questions tech support team!), but it needs to be seen by the > users as the charitable donation that it is and no guarantee of any > further such support in the future - it's purely take it as you go*. There is no guarantee anyway. We all assume certain things by observation, but there are no assumptions. --- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Atlas Telecom Senior Architect 14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005 Shimon@i-Connect.Net Voice: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 15:14:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18463 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:14:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18449 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz) From: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Message-Id: <199710082214.PAA18449@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from tpc-pc1 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:07:29 +1300 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: TV Production Centre, Massey University To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:07:24 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) Reply-to: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Priority: normal References: Your message of "Wed, 08 Oct 1997 08:00:20 EDT." <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> In-reply-to: <26258.876324035@time.cdrom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > FreeBSD in the recording studio, anyone? :) Or the video post-production studio. With it's overall stability and things like ccd offering cheap high-performance high-bandwidth storage systems, FreeBSD would make an ideal video server platform, as well as (in the first instance) a compute platform (or with a small cluster, platforms) for all those icky video effects that take so(!) long to render. Panasonic's Smart-cart broadcast automation system, which consists of a cabinet, tape loader robot, and a couple of VTRs and provides everything you need for a basic cable channel or three (for a mere $75 - $100k) uses either a Win NT or Unix (I don't know which flavour) front end, except that the NT system doesn't have as much functionality. :-) -- C. -- Craig Harding Acting Director, Massey University Television Production Centre "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 16:04:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20993 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (ken@mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20982 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@plutotech.com) Received: (from ken@localhost) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15486; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:03:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Kenneth Merry Message-Id: <199710082303.RAA15486@pluto.plutotech.com> Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710082214.PAA18449@hub.freebsd.org> from "C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz" at "Oct 9, 97 11:07:24 am" To: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:03:07 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28s (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz wrote... > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > FreeBSD in the recording studio, anyone? :) > > Or the video post-production studio. With it's overall stability and > things like ccd offering cheap high-performance high-bandwidth > storage systems, FreeBSD would make an ideal video server platform, > as well as (in the first instance) a compute platform (or with a > small cluster, platforms) for all those icky video effects that take > so(!) long to render. > > Panasonic's Smart-cart broadcast automation system, which consists of > a cabinet, tape loader robot, and a couple of VTRs and provides > everything you need for a basic cable channel or three (for a mere > $75 - $100k) uses either a Win NT or Unix (I don't know which > flavour) front end, except that the NT system doesn't have as much > functionality. :-) FreeBSD is already in the video post-production studio. Check out: http://www.plutotech.com (yes, the SPACE video recorder is basically a FreeBSD box) Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@plutotech.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 16:08:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21220 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:08:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from shasta.wstein.com (joes@shasta.wstein.com [207.173.11.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21215 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:08:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joes@shasta.wstein.com) Received: (from joes@localhost) by shasta.wstein.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05319; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:06:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Stein Message-Id: <199710082306.QAA05319@shasta.wstein.com> Subject: Re: group assignments from make world. In-Reply-To: <199710080605.PAA01099@word.smith.net.au> from Mike Smith at "Oct 8, 97 03:35:41 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Encrypt the CVSup output based on a key posted weekly to the relevant > lists. Change the key frequently. Which would work dually: it would (not necessarily) force those users that wanted the key to use the website's search function to find it. Perhaps a header line should be embedded that says 'do not archive this in the search engine.' Other than that, I'm all for it. (How about just adding the cryptography to CVSup and you can't connect to the server without the appropriate password...) joe From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 16:25:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22043 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:25:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net (punt-2b.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22038 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fhackers@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa1226113; 9 Oct 97 0:17 BST Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA08448; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:03:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from fhackers) Message-ID: <19971009000259.49962@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:02:59 +0100 From: James Raynard To: Douglas Carmichael Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Here's the start of a FreeBSD rock 'n roll anthem References: <199710072203.RAA00361@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199710072203.RAA00361@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net>; from Douglas Carmichael on Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 05:03:03PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 07, 1997 at 05:03:03PM -0500, Douglas Carmichael wrote: > We ended up at the CSRG Hotel > It was empty cold and bare > But with the (?) thing just outside But with a Japanese Portsmeister just outside? > Making our OS there > With a few red lights and a few old beds > We make a place to sweat > No matter what we get out of this > I know we'll never forget > > Smoke on the water, fire in the sky How about Demon's Eye (Fireball)? I d-d-don't mind just what you say I never heard you, never heard you anyway Twist and slide, round my brain You think your code's so clever But you know you're insane Sli-sli-sli-sli-slide Into the daemon's eye Or even the title track: The golden light above you, shows me where you're from The magic in your eye bewitches all you gaze upon You're dancing like a fireball with BSD all around you The people wonder where you're from, they really don't know you Oh my love it's a long way Where you're from, it's a long way I tried to understand you, I tried to love you right The way you touch and hold me oh it sets my heart alight You're dancing like a fireball... james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 16:39:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22753 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:39:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22748 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcarmich@Jupiter.Mcs.Net) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (dcarmich@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id SAA10126; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:39:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from dcarmich@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id SAA21858; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:39:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Douglas Carmichael Message-Id: <199710082339.SAA21858@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: FreeBSD anrh err - anthem #2 To: james@jraynard.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:39:31 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Deep Purple Machine Head Smoke On The Water (FreeBSD version #2) Intro: jkh asks: "Can we have a little more monitor out here?" (bass bong) "1....2.....1..2.3.4." (guitar intro) (4-bar count-in) Oh yeah! (grrrrrowlling guitar chord) We all came out to Berkeley On the Lake (?) shoreline To make CDs with a mobile We didn't have much time David Greenman and the others Were at the best place around But some stupid with a flare gun Burned the place to the ground Smoke on the water, fire in the sky They burned down phk's house It died with an awful sound jkh was running in and out Pulling kids out the ground When it all was over We had to find another place But systime was running out It seemed that we would lose the race Smoke on the water, fire in the sky We ended up at the CSRG Hotel It was empty cold and bare But with the Linus B. T* thing just outside Making our OS there With a few red lights and a few old beds We make a place to sweat No matter what we get out of this I know we'll never forget Smoke on the water, fire in the sky *T = Torvalds From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 21:14:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06475 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:14:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06469 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-198.konnections.com (ip185-198.konnections.com [207.173.185.198]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA01118 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:11:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-198.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCD437.A43667D0@ip185-198.konnections.com>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:15:10 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCD437.A43667D0@ip185-198.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: "'chat freeBSD'" Subject: Radius, Alpha & me Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:07:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA06471 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone know if I can run a Radius 19" monochrome in either 1 page or dual page mode on Digital Alpha????? With or without Radius' card. How about on an Intel platform? Radius stopped supporting the display on Intel with Win 3.1...... Any takers??? -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 21:47:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07752 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:47:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07746 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:47:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA01811; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710090449.WAA01811@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Peter Dufault CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> References: <199710081200.VAA04024@word.smith.net.au> <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Dufault writes: > I did everyone a disservice by not providing background, and by > taking one paragraph and forwarding it. What I noticed was that > someone who generally knows what he is talking about in an informal > setting (note - informal) is not considering the internet OS's. > And it is the same across the board - I may read "Linux" in a New > York Times article about "hackers" or "computer security experts > with ponytails", but I'll never see it in a discussion of "Windows > NT overtakes Unix". But, sir, his numbers don't jive with the report I forwarded here last month, from a generally well-respected research firm, that indicated the *total* UNIX marketplace currently as being something like *40 times* the size of the *total* NT marketplace. Again, I agree with Mike: he must *not* have done his research very carefully. > The fact is that WNT will ship more than Unix if it hasn't already, > I was just surprised that it had happened. Don't be surprised when you find out it hasn't happened, and that your compatriots figures were, shall we say, fictitious. From whence does he devine the total number of NT sales? I've never seen Microsoft release those figures. Likewise with Solaris, SCO, HP-UX, AIX, et al. An article I spotted somewhere this summer suggested that by the end of 1997, Linux will have overtaken MacOS as the second most installed OS in the world, still staying well ahead of NT, or anything else. Sorry, I have no idea where this article was, and no attribution for the figures. It didn't surprise me nearly as much as your posting. > Gates waved his hand a few days ago and announced that business > users should now switch to NT, and that home computers should follow > after W98. Apparently you didn't notice when he said the same thing in 1995. Remember? Windows 95 is the operating system for homes, Windows NT is the operating system for businesses of all sizes. The stated purpose of the Win95 branding system requiring that your application also run on NT was to ascertain a large number of 32-bit applications compatible with NT, even though the vendors were intentionally making Win95 applications. Amazing how little Win developers really know about their own bread-and-butter. > I'm not sure how much longer it will be feasible for > me to decline to take on primarily Windows projects. Unix - the > Cobol of the next millenium. Do whatever you have to, just don't expect us to validate your slipping into the pits of hell. If you can find good UNIX (or UNIX-like embedded systems) work, you're living in the wrong corner of the world. > What I wonder is Linux / *BSD nothing but hobbyist low level > background noise such that it is appropriate that it never show up > in any analysis in the major media. Define "major media." MSNBC? The Today Show? Mr. Rogers Neighborhood? The New York/Los Angeles/Seattle Times? Dr. Dobbs Journal? LAN Times? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 21:48:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07820 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07815 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA01817; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:51:12 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:51:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710090451.WAA01817@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: braukmann@tse-online.de CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A name for a FreeBSD cluster-type config (Was: Building parallel "Beowulf-style" supercomputers with FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <19971008153029.06174@paert.tse-online.de> References: <199710080803.KAA19138@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> <19971008114326.17834@deepo.prosa.dk> <19971008153029.06174@paert.tse-online.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk braukmann@tse-online.de writes: > > I'm surprised no one ever suggested "LEMMINGS" > > hmm, ... seems to be a nice name for a Windows NT cluster?-) No, I believe those are called "fluster clucks." Or something like that. I suggest a "pride" of FreeBSDs, like lions. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 22:25:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09367 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:25:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09362 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA08014; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:55:42 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971009145541.15494@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:55:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: Peter Dufault , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) References: <199710081200.VAA04024@word.smith.net.au> <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> <199710090449.WAA01811@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710090449.WAA01811@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Oct 08, 1997 at 10:49:31PM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 08, 1997 at 10:49:31PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Peter Dufault writes: >> I did everyone a disservice by not providing background, and by >> taking one paragraph and forwarding it. What I noticed was that >> someone who generally knows what he is talking about in an informal >> setting (note - informal) is not considering the internet OS's. >> And it is the same across the board - I may read "Linux" in a New >> York Times article about "hackers" or "computer security experts >> with ponytails", but I'll never see it in a discussion of "Windows >> NT overtakes Unix". > > But, sir, his numbers don't jive with the report I forwarded here last > month, from a generally well-respected research firm, that indicated the > *total* UNIX marketplace currently as being something like *40 times* > the size of the *total* NT marketplace. Again, I agree with Mike: he > must *not* have done his research very carefully. *Soomebody* hasn't done their research carefully. How can we tell who it is? You'll recall that I doubted them at the time. For the record, I doubt the others too. The truth lies somewhere between, but there's so much between that neither report helps much. Back in 1982, I decided that I would write a free UNIX (what a crazy idea! At least, that's what people thought at the time). As you know, it didn't happen, and when I finally got to work with UNIX hardware (late 1986, 68020, System V.2), I was convinced that UNIX had had its day, and that the new, wonder replacement was Microsoft's OS/2. I took some convincing to see just how wrong I was. I think it was the biggest misjudgement I have ever made. >> The fact is that WNT will ship more than Unix if it hasn't already, >> I was just surprised that it had happened. > > Don't be surprised when you find out it hasn't happened, and that your > compatriots figures were, shall we say, fictitious. From whence does he > devine the total number of NT sales? I've never seen Microsoft release > those figures. Likewise with Solaris, SCO, HP-UX, AIX, et al. > > An article I spotted somewhere this summer suggested that by the end of > 1997, Linux will have overtaken MacOS as the second most installed OS in > the world, still staying well ahead of NT, or anything else. Sorry, I > have no idea where this article was, and no attribution for the > figures. It didn't surprise me nearly as much as your posting. It's funny, isn't it, just how few hard facts are known about these things, when you consider of what overwhelming importance they are to world business. >> Gates waved his hand a few days ago and announced that business >> users should now switch to NT, and that home computers should follow >> after W98. > > Apparently you didn't notice when he said the same thing in 1995. > Remember? Windows 95 is the operating system for homes, Windows NT is > the operating system for businesses of all sizes. The stated purpose of > the Win95 branding system requiring that your application also run on NT > was to ascertain a large number of 32-bit applications compatible with > NT, even though the vendors were intentionally making Win95 > applications. Amazing how little Win developers really know about their > own bread-and-butter. Does that surprise you? If they understood the situation, they wouldn't be there. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 22:33:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09784 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:33:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09775 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:33:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-198.konnections.com (ip185-198.konnections.com [207.173.185.198]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA02224; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:30:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-198.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCD442.9D961500@ip185-198.konnections.com>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:33:43 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCD442.9D961500@ip185-198.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: Peter Dufault , "'Wes Peters'" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:33:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id WAA09779 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bottom line is: What is purchased, what is installed and what is USED..... How many of those NT purchasers pass their discs along to others? How many people are downloading NT to run and not purchasing anything?? It's all insipid, anyway. FreeOSs are not in competition with Microsoft anything. They are a viable alternative and, in may cases, a viable supplement to Corporate OS. I've seen (we've all seen) Gov't offices, military offices, commercial. etc where a FreeOS, CommUnix, and NT (or else?) cohabitate and work together..... Who cares how many NTs ship? Who cares what peaks? NO ONE has FreeOS sales numbers because it's not a license, so it's ever irrelevant... Mike Allison ---------- From: Wes Peters Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 10:49 PM To: Peter Dufault Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) But, sir, his numbers don't jive with the report I forwarded here last month, from a generally well-respected research firm, that indicated the *total* UNIX marketplace currently as being something like *40 times* the size of the *total* NT marketplace. Again, I agree with Mike: he must *not* have done his research very carefully. > The fact is that WNT will ship more than Unix if it hasn't already, > I was just surprised that it had happened. Don't be surprised when you find out it hasn't happened, and that your compatriots figures were, shall we say, fictitious. From whence does he devine the total number of NT sales? I've never seen Microsoft release those figures. Likewise with Solaris, SCO, HP-UX, AIX, et al. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 23:11:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11228 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11219 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:11:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA01847; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:32:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:32:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710090532.XAA01847@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710082214.PAA18449@hub.freebsd.org> References: <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> <26258.876324035@time.cdrom.com> <199710082214.PAA18449@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk C. R. Harding writes: > Panasonic's Smart-cart broadcast automation system, which consists of > a cabinet, tape loader robot, and a couple of VTRs and provides > everything you need for a basic cable channel or three (for a mere > $75 - $100k) uses either a Win NT or Unix (I don't know which > flavour) front end, except that the NT system doesn't have as much > functionality. :-) The Philips BTS Media Pool audio/video storage system uses HP-UX workstations for the front end, which could obviously be replaced at lower cost with FreeBSD systems. The back-end storage and channel switching is done with 68360s running VxWorks. I hadn't thought about it, but with a good video board or two and a ccd driver, you could do quite a reasonable job of a one or two channel storage pool and editor using FreeBSD. Last year, we prototyped an entire three-stage switcher on HP-UX and FreeBSD at BTS. The switcher code was all written in C++, and the lowest driver layer was easily subclassed to run on the custom BTS hardware, or as a simple ASCII output on UNIX. Our "vitual" switching speeds were certainly better on a Pentium 133 than the real hardware, which was a 16 Mhz 68HC000. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 23:11:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11252 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11239 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA01838; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:23:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:23:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710090523.XAA01838@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <26258.876324035@time.cdrom.com> References: <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> <26258.876324035@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > Unix also lost any chance it might have had for "total victory" about > 10 years ago, when it Balkanized itself instead of fighting its > external threats, so why even worry about that particular lost cause? > I still think that we can find some measure of success in turning away > from the main axis of the battle and looking for smaller pockets of > territory to capture, things which require much higher-tech solutions > than Redmond is able to provide. Unfortunately, the trade press in general still sees "UNIX losing the desktop war to Microsoft" as a bad thing. I suggest the opposite is true: UNIX was never meant for a word processor/spreadsheet system. Since we never really wanted to go there, why would we lament somebody else inheriting that stick ball of goo? It's pretty easy to argue that Win95 wasn't the "best" contender, compared to (insert your favorite "desktop" OS here), but UNIX wasn't even in the contest. Let's get on with making UNIX absolutely killer at what it was designed for: being the best multitasking, multiuser, multiwhatever you want small computer system ever designed by, for, and of programmers. > I think that technologies like vxWorks and QNX are doing pretty well > for themselves in the embedded systems market, for example, and much Oh yeah. Of course, Microsoft has now decided to take over this market too. The Embedded Systems Conference last week in San Jose had "Windows CE" plastered all over it. Fortunately, most of the people there were pretty skeptical, and nobody appeared to be taking CE seriously for anything other than handheld web browsers for managing embedded systems. This, of course, speaks well for those of us in the business of making embedded web technology. ;^) As a comparison, Wind River was loudly and proudly telling everyone at the show that they own *100%* of the operating system market on Mars. ;^) > of the core technology in Unix could be highly applicable to this same > sort of work if some serious attention were paid to structuring it > more as a set of pluggable components and providing better real-time > capabilities for the people who need that sort of thing. FreeBSD in > the recording studio, anyone? :) Seriously - such markets may be > comparatively small but they're still enough to keep a fair number of > Unix hackers gainfully employed. Comparitively small? Heh. With WRS shipping on the order of a million licenses a month? Of course, they're something like 45% of their market, but the numbers are pretty impressive. Think about the sheer numbers of things that have embedded OSs in them these days: laser printers, microwave ovens, VCRs, cell phones, cars (typically 4 to 9 systems per car!), medical instruments, etc. And, of course, network routers, switches, print servers, etc. My previous employer made studio-quality A/V switchers for TV stations, using VxWorks for the control systems and a combination of HP-UX and *FreeBSD* for software development. > If you asked me what I thought the real challenge ahead for Unix was, > I'd say it was in fulfilling its own original promise, not in trying > to become Billy's personal nightmare. We need to take careful stock > of the various shortcomings which are standing in the way of Unix's > becoming the ultimate engineer's toolbox and solve them. We need to Well spoken. We don't need UNIX to be everything to everyone, all we need it to be is what programmers *want* to use. If I can develop it quicker, faster, easier, more maintainable on UNIX, and UNIX runs on whatever hardware I'm likely to get my hands on, I'll pick UNIX. If your "boss" doesn't allow you that leeway, wants to put roadblocks in your way, VOTE WITH YOUR FEET! > take the best ideas from the embedded OSes, like having > dynamically-loadable-everything, a light-weight GUI subsystem, POSIX > real-time extensions, etc. and implement them. We need to fix Unix's Along the way, I think you'll ultimately improve the system for "general" users as well. Plug and play devices? Pretty simple, if all of your device drivers are dynamically loadable *and* unloadable from the start. Multithreaded servers for speed? Pretty simple if the kernel itself is multi-threaded, you just expose the threads API to user code as well. > existing services so that they Just Work and you don't have big > warning signs over things like remote file locking which say "out of > order" and cause an engineer to mistrust his tools. Make the > components easily separable so that it's possible to have only as much > "Unix" as you want for a given application. Make it all fast as heck. > Play to Unix's existing strengths, basically, and continue to innovate > along the same lines that our spiritual forefathers (so to speak) had > in mind. I think the original folks were after a really cool toolbox, > basically, and they succeeded admirably enough to draw a whole host of > other tool-users into what they hardly expected would quickly become a > Craftsmen's Cult of sorts. ;-) One of the hardest things to convince Windows programmers of in moving *to* UNIX is the tool-building cult. They come from a world where you buy an all-encompassing, all-singing, all-dancing single IDE, and if it doesn't do it, it can't be done. And, of course, they pay a lot of dollars for these monstrosities. UNIX, on the other hand, offers lots of tools, small and large, and a pretty straightforward way to tie them together: scripting languages. I use a configuration management tool called Perforce (highly recommended, by the way) which runs on Windows and a variety of UNIX systems. The servers are available for both UNIX and NT. It's pretty amusing to watch a user ask a simple "how can I automate this task?" question, see several more experienced users contribute 5 and 10 line shell scripts that accomplish the given task, and then 2 or 3 unfortunate souls say "we use the Win95 client, how can I do this in the GUI?" If I weren't cruel and capricious, I could write a Tcl/Tk script for them. On the other hand, if they had any smarts, they'd throw a bunch of $$$ at me so I'd feel better about doing it. ;^) Another marketing channel we FreeBSDers must concentrate on is the university. UNIX originally climbed into commercial existence through the influence of young programmers entering the work force with UNIX experience from their colleges and universities. These days, colleges buy the "educational discount" versions of VC++ and teach their graduates nothing but "how to write an MFC app." Talk to professors and students at your {current, former} universities. Get them to use FreeBSD. Get them to install FreeBSD ftp servers on the campus net. Recruit a Doug White at each and every college. Get them to stock FreeBSD CD-ROMs and books in the bookstore. And get them to take FreeBSD to work with them. ;^) > If we're going to carve out and hold a credible niche for ourselves in > Mr. Bill's world, we're going need to get back to the fundamentals and > stop thinking about painting a happy face on the outside of the > toolbox as much as making the tools inside high quality instruments of > software craftsmanship. That's where "commercial UNIX" essentially > went down the wrong path, in my opinion. Marketing was brought in > without any clear idea as to what it was they were trying to sell and > so they kind of looked over their shoulders and tried to sell it like > the other guys were selling their OSes. Unfortunately, the "other > guys" were Microsoft, IBM and Apple in this case and very bad examples > for our impressionable little marketdroids, their requests eventually > resulting in the diversion of engineering resources into a battle for > the desktop which could not be won and should never have been fought > in the first place. They went astray and they paid the price. > > Anyway, maybe that's our secret weapon. No marketing department. ;-) Exactly so. Every time I've seen one of my products screwed into the ground, it's been at the hands of "Must have feature implement by Q1, 10,000 license sale pending." Then you give them the feature they wanted, and they never bother to use it. Gah! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 8 23:51:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12970 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:51:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust67.tnt2.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.125.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12964 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:51:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@wakky.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id CAA20261; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19971009025102.56709@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:51:02 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <01BCD442.9D961500@ip185-198.konnections.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <01BCD442.9D961500@ip185-198.konnections.com>; from Mike Allison on Wed, Oct 08, 1997 at 11:33:42PM -0600 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 08, 1997 at 11:33:42PM -0600, Mike Allison wrote: > It's all insipid, anyway. Agreed totally...this is the sort of "why bother fighting about it, noone's going to win" thread that happens day-in, day-out on comp.*.advocacy. It's a waste of bandwidth, IMO, and I almost procmailed this thread because of that. > Who cares how many NTs ship? Who cares what peaks? NO ONE has FreeOS > sales numbers because it's not a license, so it's ever irrelevant... Amen to that...it would be nice to know what the FreeBSD userbase count is like, but since it's not payware, noone knows for sure. The only sales numbers that really exist, I would imagine, are for the CD sets, and that would definitely be an understatement, since not everyone gets FreeBSD on CD. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 01:35:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA17446 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:35:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA17441 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:35:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04493; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:35:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Wes Peters cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Oct 1997 23:23:13 MDT." <199710090523.XAA01838@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 01:35:05 -0700 Message-ID: <4489.876386105@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unfortunately, the trade press in general still sees "UNIX losing the > desktop war to Microsoft" as a bad thing. I suggest the opposite is > true: UNIX was never meant for a word processor/spreadsheet system. > Since we never really wanted to go there, why would we lament somebody > else inheriting that stick ball of goo? I ask myself this question almost every day. ;-) > UNIX, on the other hand, offers lots of tools, small and large, and a > pretty straightforward way to tie them together: scripting languages. As Van Jacobson put it during his USENIX keynote a few years back: "Unix gives you words, Windows gives you only whole sentences" - you'd never teach a child a natural language this way but yet we seem to feel that restricting programmers similarly won't stunt their intellectual growth. Uh huh. :-) > I use a configuration management tool called Perforce (highly > recommended, by the way) which runs on Windows and a variety of UNIX > systems. The servers are available for both UNIX and NT. It's pretty Hey, and you forgot to mention this (from http://www.perforce.com): Free Software Developer Pricing for FreeBSD and Linux Bona fide organizations developing free software (e.g. products distributed under the Berkeley or GNU copyrights) may be eligible to obtain Perforce servers for FreeBSD or Linux gratis. This includes upgrades but not support. They're very friendly to us free OS folks, they're enthusiastic FreeBSD users and, if we had thought that the rest of the FreeBSD community could live with a commercial SCM tool vs CVS (which we don't), we'd probably be using Perforce now as FreeBSD's official source code control system. Our CVS repository manager loves the product. The president of the company came over and personally gave many of the FreeBSD core team members instruction on its use. It's truly about as close as we've ever come to ditching a free solution over a commercial alternative - it's a better mousetrap, no question. > Another marketing channel we FreeBSDers must concentrate on is the > university. UNIX originally climbed into commercial existence through Oh we do, we do. Let me just repeat (for what is at least the 10th time :-) that university promotion is a major priority of ours and if your school is willing to use FreeBSD somehow, even if it's just within the local Unix user's group, I'm happy to get you into Walnut Creek CDROM's promotional give-away program. I've sent out literally thousands of CDs that way over the last couple of years. > Recruit a Doug White at each and every college. Get them to stock > FreeBSD CD-ROMs and books in the bookstore. And get them to take "Remember users, ask for it by name!" :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 01:51:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18005 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18000 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:50:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04614; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:50:21 -0700 (PDT) To: hcremean@vt.edu cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Oct 1997 02:51:02 EDT." <19971009025102.56709@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 01:50:21 -0700 Message-ID: <4610.876387021@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Amen to that...it would be nice to know what the FreeBSD userbase count is > like, but since it's not payware, noone knows for sure. The only sales > numbers that really exist, I would imagine, are for the CD sets, and that > would definitely be an understatement, since not everyone gets FreeBSD on > CD. The only "hard data" so far (aside from the CD sales figures, which I unfortunately can't disclose) has come from the FreeBSD registration counter which started up on March 10th (gee, it's just coming up on an even 7 months, isn't it?) and, since then, has collected: There are 13505 users registered in total. Counts by OS version (top 10 entries): 2.2.2-RELEASE: 9021 2.2.1-RELEASE: 2907 2.2-RELEASE: 643 2.1.7.1-RELEASE: 360 2.2-970625-RELENG: 66 3.0-970807-SNAP: 57 2.2-GAMMA: 47 2.2-970815-RELENG: 40 3.0-970618-SNAP: 39 2.2-970422-RELENG: 30 I'm not sure what one could extrapolate from these figures (except that the average registration rate is 1930 users a month?) but there they are, FWIW. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 02:19:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA19350 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA19344 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:19:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA00665; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:49:11 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971009184911.20854@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:49:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) References: <19971009025102.56709@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <4610.876387021@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <4610.876387021@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Oct 09, 1997 at 01:50:21AM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Oct 09, 1997 at 01:50:21AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Amen to that...it would be nice to know what the FreeBSD userbase count is >> like, but since it's not payware, noone knows for sure. The only sales >> numbers that really exist, I would imagine, are for the CD sets, and that >> would definitely be an understatement, since not everyone gets FreeBSD on >> CD. > > The only "hard data" so far (aside from the CD sales figures, which I > unfortunately can't disclose) has come from the FreeBSD registration > counter which started up on March 10th (gee, it's just coming up on an > even 7 months, isn't it?) and, since then, has collected: > > There are 13505 users registered in total. > Counts by OS version (top 10 entries): > 2.2.2-RELEASE: 9021 > 2.2.1-RELEASE: 2907 > 2.2-RELEASE: 643 > 2.1.7.1-RELEASE: 360 > 2.2-970625-RELENG: 66 > 3.0-970807-SNAP: 57 > 2.2-GAMMA: 47 > 2.2-970815-RELENG: 40 > 3.0-970618-SNAP: 39 > 2.2-970422-RELENG: 30 > > I'm not sure what one could extrapolate from these figures (except > that the average registration rate is 1930 users a month?) but there > they are, FWIW. It's gratifying to see that two-thirds are for 2.2.2-RELEASE. Over the time it's been available, that must be more than 1930 users per month. Is there a way to register this on the Web? Is there a way to avoid duplicates? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 02:41:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA20432 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA20427 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:41:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA05001; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:40:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Greg Lehey cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:49:11 +0930." <19971009184911.20854@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 02:40:53 -0700 Message-ID: <4997.876390053@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is there a way to register this on the Web? Is there a way to avoid > duplicates? You mean register "with" this on the web? If so, yeah: http://www.freebsd.org/register.html Will do it. If you're wondering if this database can be queried, no, it can't. I'm still not sure that exposing this data is a good idea given the ill intentions of many data harvesters out there, but perhaps we could come up with a way for a user to edit their entry, I dunno. Avoid duplicates? Via a yet-to-be written heuristic, I think. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 04:18:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA25004 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 04:18:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA24998 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 04:18:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@cybercom.net) Received: from atlanta (ksmm@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02420 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971009071056.0096aeb0@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 07:10:56 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19971009145541.15494@lemis.com> References: <199710090449.WAA01811@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199710081200.VAA04024@word.smith.net.au> <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> <199710090449.WAA01811@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 02:55 PM 10/9/97 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> Gates waved his hand a few days ago and announced that business >>> users should now switch to NT, and that home computers should follow >>> after W98. >> >> Apparently you didn't notice when he said the same thing in 1995. >> Remember? Windows 95 is the operating system for homes, Windows NT is >> the operating system for businesses of all sizes. The stated purpose of >> the Win95 branding system requiring that your application also run on NT >> was to ascertain a large number of 32-bit applications compatible with >> NT, even though the vendors were intentionally making Win95 >> applications. Amazing how little Win developers really know about their >> own bread-and-butter. > >Does that surprise you? If they understood the situation, they >wouldn't be there. This doesn't strike me as odd. I would think application vendors would be happy to do the little additional work that it would take to open themselves up the NT market. It's a lot easier than writing portable UNIX applications with disparate development environments. K.S. PS -- Does anybody know of any good integrated development environments on FreeBSD? From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 06:50:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01041 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dumbwinter.logic.it (mod6.logic.it [195.120.151.22] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA01025 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 06:50:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: (qmail 1014 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Oct 1997 13:44:52 -0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:44:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199710090523.XAA01838@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > Another marketing channel we FreeBSDers must concentrate on is the > university. UNIX originally climbed into commercial existence > through the influence of young programmers entering the work > force with UNIX experience from their colleges and universities. > These days, colleges buy the "educational discount" versions of > VC++ and teach their graduates nothing but "how to write an MFC > app." Talk to professors and students at your {current, former} > universities. Get them to use FreeBSD. Get them to install > FreeBSD ftp servers on the campus net. Recruit a Doug White at > each and every college. Get them to stock FreeBSD CD-ROMs and > books in the bookstore. And get them to take FreeBSD to work with > them. ;^) I'm a student at the Computer Science Department of the Milan University, Italy (This is also the CERT Italy center). Our lab is ruled by HP-UX xterminals :-) You know what are they used for? Surfing the net with netscape, with hard core images in the root window. My collegues say: "hey dude, this (surfing the web + sex images) is cool. I just miss my home win95". No, I'm not joking :-(. I'm the only I know of to do my exams programs with Unix (guess which? I started with Linux, then switched to FreeBSD :-). All my friends carry to the examination room their home pc with their win95 or nt, and use visual C++. What a _SAD_ world, if I think that we students are *supposed* to be computer science experts, not marketing droids. Here at my university, bureaucracy rules (ie, you can't just say: "hey, a spare pc. Let me install FreeBSD and show you how it works"), but if Jordan is interested in a foreign country, I'll be glad to give him a list of my professors email addresses. Uhm, maybe it's better snail mail, so he could send them some gadgets, maybe the FreeBSD newsletter ;-) Cheers Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. "Whuffo you jump out of them airplanes?" From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 07:27:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03192 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:27:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from micro.internexus.net (root@internexus.net [206.152.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03184 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:27:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cliff@cliffsworld.com) Received: from c.f.ains (ppp41.internexus.net [206.152.14.232]) by micro.internexus.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA17588 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:27:11 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971009102808.0076e0d0@mail.internexus.net> X-Sender: compatriot@mail.internexus.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:28:08 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: cliff ainsworth III Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4489.876386105@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You guys might want to check out Parsons School of Design or the New School (these guys had a one night class on Martinis) here in NYC. A few years ago they were giving some courses on-line. I think they were doing Linux (don't quote me on that). They are progressive enough that they might work something out with you guys. If needed I could make a few calls to the school and see what courses they are offering on-line and see if they would be interested in a FreeBSD class. Just me know. They generally offer their classes in three ways. General interest (pay the least, no grading), certificate (pay more with pass/fail option), degree (maximum cost/standard grading system). see ya, -cliff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CLIFFSWORLD homepage-- "Open Throttle" web-zine-- Quake-Clan "RIP" homepage---- PGP v5.0 public key available "Do not stare into the FDDI port with remaining eye" (Paraphrased from the Cisco 7206 installation guide). From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 07:44:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04285 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:44:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04176 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00393; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:07:51 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710091437.AAA00393@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Oct 1997 07:10:56 -0400." <3.0.3.32.19971009071056.0096aeb0@cybercom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:07:51 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > PS -- Does anybody know of any good integrated development environments on > FreeBSD? Emacs. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 08:41:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07425 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:41:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07260 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id JAA02440; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:42:10 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:42:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710091542.JAA02440@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: The Classiest Man Alive CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971009071056.0096aeb0@cybercom.net> References: <199710090449.WAA01811@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199710081200.VAA04024@word.smith.net.au> <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> <19971009145541.15494@lemis.com> <3.0.3.32.19971009071056.0096aeb0@cybercom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Classiest Man Alive writes: > PS -- Does anybody know of any good integrated development environments on > FreeBSD? Hey, folks he *asked* for it! Yes: Emacs! You can edit source code, compile, search for compiler errors, and debug the exectuable, (not to mention e-mail, read news, browse the web, and practically anything else) all within your editing environment. It is perhaps not quite as slick as some of the commercial Win packages, but works quite well; I still use it at home on a 486/66, which feels about as fast as my Pentium 166 at work running NT. ;^) Try it, you'll like it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 08:53:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08184 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:53:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07864 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:48:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net) Received: (from bsdcur@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id SAA13677 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:48:10 +0200 (EET) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199710091648.SAA13677@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/etc make.conf In-Reply-To: <7705.876401147@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Oct 9, 97 05:45:47 am" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:48:10 +0200 (EET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (from cvs to current to chat, i dont want to flood "usefull" lists with this) > > thus "works", right? > Right. It's used by the standard FTP: > Is documented by fetch: yeah, i noticed (before i posted to the list), that's why i posted, i thought it's broken, or something. > > as far as i can see, this is far better way to do it than > > bloating the fetch to actually agree with FTP_PASSIVE_MODE. > Fetch is already, through libftpio, supposed to agree with > it. Unfortunately, I don't have a firewall'd machined handy > to test at the moment but it's certainly worked in the past > when I did. uh, i _swear_ my machine at work, originally may 3.0 snap, brought several times up-to-date -current with all /etc modifications and stuff, needed that line to /etc/make.conf until it used that passive mode. (last update to -current is from monday) i can make it again inoperational by removing the line! has the fact that our netbsd (wasnt/isnt my installation!) translates my 10.0.0.0 into "real" internet address with ipnat something to do with it? hmm, ok, forget it. *sulk* anyone want to fly to finland and take a peek? (hell, no, i'm not paying the tickets, sorry) =) > Jordan mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 08:55:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08284 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08218 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:54:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co) Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17548; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:43:12 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:43:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: Marco Molteni Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Seems like a good time to report what happened with the CDs Jordan sent me to promote FreeBSD. I had a bet with a teacher in which he would test FreeBSD and I would test Linux (Linux is not very popular here either). One of his students strongly suggested the guy was too stubborn and that I shouldn't throw away the CD. I decided to loan the CD to him for an indefinite time. About two months ago he said he would reserve one box (the slowest he had) to test it. AFAIK the CD is *still* unused: without having it tested the teacher decided it was "not as standard" (read popular) as Linux. I haven't asked for that CD back because there is a small chance he *will* use it one day and he will discover the evident. Other teachers have received the CDs, and I made a copy for the library (I worked there), but in essence the CDs are in a latent stage. I effectively convinced most people that FreeBSD is the ultimate OS, but noone seems to have time to test something new. I don't believe forcing them is the way here, but I do pass around JIC they are having problems. My personal conclusions are: 1) FreeBSD doesn't need certain users. 2) A FreeBSD hacker is required to adequately promote FreeBSD, but it's not enough; you also require certain culture (+ books + web pages+...). 3) Countries like Colombia don't have that culture, and many people don't want it either. I like to think there are some positive things and that the CDs were not lost...I had *better* success with closed cirles of hackers: I think I can convince an NT developer of banking applications to port his software to FreeBSD and unix in general, and at least the community now has the clear knowledge that there are other alternatives. Pedro. On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Marco Molteni wrote: > > Here at my university, bureaucracy rules (ie, you can't just say: > "hey, a spare pc. Let me install FreeBSD and show you how it > works"), but if Jordan is interested in a foreign country, I'll be > glad to give him a list of my professors email addresses. Uhm, maybe > it's better snail mail, so he could send them some gadgets, maybe > the FreeBSD newsletter ;-) > > Cheers > > Marco Molteni > Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. > "Whuffo you jump out of them airplanes?" > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 11:51:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20065 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:51:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20035 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:51:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA02016 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:50:49 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA20028; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:22:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971009202255.FM60582@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:22:55 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) References: <199710090449.WAA01811@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199710081200.VAA04024@word.smith.net.au> <199710081200.IAA17975@hda.hda.com> <199710090449.WAA01811@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <3.0.3.32.19971009071056.0096aeb0@cybercom.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971009071056.0096aeb0@cybercom.net>; from The Classiest Man Alive on Oct 9, 1997 07:10:56 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > PS -- Does anybody know of any good integrated development environments on > FreeBSD? Emacs. :-) Maybe xwpe is for you? After i've once been rather enthusiastic about the old Borland `Turbo' tools (back in the days when not even 386BSD did exist), i had a look at xwpe by the time when it appeared first. However, i quickly had to realize that i've already fallen in love with Emacs meanwhile, and couldn't bear the old Borland IDE idea anymore. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 14:42:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01856 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:42:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01850 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:42:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA26218; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4489.876386105@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Oh we do, we do. Let me just repeat (for what is at least the 10th > time :-) that university promotion is a major priority of ours and if > your school is willing to use FreeBSD somehow, even if it's just > within the local Unix user's group, I'm happy to get you into Walnut > Creek CDROM's promotional give-away program. I've sent out literally > thousands of CDs that way over the last couple of years. The Stanford bookstore stocks FreeBSD and Gordon Lehey's book. If you can tell me a little more about how this promotional give-away program works, I can try to do something with it at Stanford--there are quite a few local newsgroups including one on "bsd". Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 15:49:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05619 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:49:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05611 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:49:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gpalmer@orion.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id SAA01957; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id SAA18396; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:49:02 -0400 (EDT) To: Annelise Anderson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Oct 1997 14:40:49 PDT." Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:49:02 -0400 Message-ID: <18394.876437342@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Annelise Anderson wrote in message ID : > > > On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Oh we do, we do. Let me just repeat (for what is at least the 10th > > time :-) that university promotion is a major priority of ours and if > > your school is willing to use FreeBSD somehow, even if it's just > > within the local Unix user's group, I'm happy to get you into Walnut > > Creek CDROM's promotional give-away program. I've sent out literally > > thousands of CDs that way over the last couple of years. > > The Stanford bookstore stocks FreeBSD and Gordon Lehey's book. If Err? Gordon Lehey? Never heard of him :) Try `Greg' :) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 18:08:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12359 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:08:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12354 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA11988; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:08:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Oct 1997 14:40:49 PDT." Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:08:01 -0700 Message-ID: <11984.876445681@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The Stanford bookstore stocks FreeBSD and Gordon Lehey's book. If > you can tell me a little more about how this promotional give-away > program works, I can try to do something with it at Stanford--there > are quite a few local newsgroups including one on "bsd". It's pretty simple - someone figures out where there would be room to spread out n FreeBSD CDs (and they should read about our Colombian friend's recent bad experiences before coming up with too high a number for n :) and they contact me. I send them n CDs, they give them away, that's about the long and the short of it. :) In some cases, folks also prepare a one-page handout to give away with the CDs which points people at the various online resources and, perhaps, also gives their own contact info in case people have problems. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 18:53:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14586 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14581 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:53:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA26674; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:52:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <11984.876445681@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The Stanford bookstore stocks FreeBSD and Gordon Lehey's book. If > > you can tell me a little more about how this promotional give-away > > program works, I can try to do something with it at Stanford--there > > are quite a few local newsgroups including one on "bsd". > > It's pretty simple - someone figures out where there would be room to > spread out n FreeBSD CDs (and they should read about our Colombian > friend's recent bad experiences before coming up with too high a > number for n :) and they contact me. I send them n CDs, they give > them away, that's about the long and the short of it. :) > > In some cases, folks also prepare a one-page handout to give away with > the CDs which points people at the various online resources and, > perhaps, also gives their own contact info in case people have > problems. > > Jordan Okay, what would you like me to try to give away? I would prefer to try to promote the "most recent version", i.e. 2.2.5 when it comes out, and maybe the 3.0 snap; or do you only give away the older ones? Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 20:19:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18710 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18696 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA02907; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:21:10 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:21:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710100321.VAA02907@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Marco Molteni CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <199710090523.XAA01838@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marco Molteni writes: > I'm a student at the Computer Science Department of the Milan > University, Italy (This is also the CERT Italy center). Our lab is > ruled by HP-UX xterminals :-) > > You know what are they used for? Surfing the net with netscape, with > hard core images in the root window. My collegues say: "hey dude, > this (surfing the web + sex images) is cool. I just miss my home > win95". > > No, I'm not joking :-(. I'm the only I know of to do my exams > programs with Unix (guess which? I started with Linux, then switched > to FreeBSD :-). All my friends carry to the examination room their > home pc with their win95 or nt, and use visual C++. What a _SAD_ > world, if I think that we students are *supposed* to be computer > science experts, not marketing droids. As I suspected. This is pretty much true at my Alma Mater as well. When talking about a full university, you have to convert the graduate teaching assistants, with colleges where the professors actually teach, you have to convert the professors. The average students aren't going to do anything they aren't required to do; it's just not in their nature. If we can get the people who teach the classes to teach classes using FreeBSD, or even Linux, everyone wins. Be careful not to ride Linux down in these situations, it is far better than having a student use Win95 and VC++ and *think* he actually understands something. Explain patiently to questioners that FreeBSD:Linux == WinNT:Win95, where FreeBSD > Linux > WinNT > Win95. ;^) And, most importantly, tell them that with a little cleverness, they can write a program that will rotate the sex pictures on the root window every few seconds (or minutes). Then you'll have them hooked. This laziness found in students is true in the industry as well -- prepare to be very disappointed with a majority of your co-workers upon graduation. If you manage to fall into a group where most of the people actually care about what they do, as I have several times, consider yourself lucky and ride it as long as you can. Sooner or later the company will hire some moron to manage the group and he will utterly destroy it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 20:25:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19076 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:25:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19063; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:25:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA02913; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:29:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:29:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710100329.VAA02913@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Gary Palmer" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <18394.876437342@orion.webspan.net> References: <18394.876437342@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Palmer writes: > Err? Gordon Lehey? Never heard of him :) > > Try `Greg' :) All you "G" men sound alike. ;^) Thanks for being so polite in your correction, though. Chat has seemed quite social, except for the ongoing CVS tag vs. release name war, for quite some time now. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 20:33:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19412 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19406 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA02922; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:36:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:36:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710100336.VAA02922@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Dylan Northrup CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: password question In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dylan Northrup writes: > We're intending on putting a FreeBSD box into production along some AIX > boxes. Is there some sort of way that we can get compatability between > the password generated by FreeBSD and the passwords on the AIX boxen? > > Currently we rdist the password files to the various machines. Previously > we used yp/NIS, however the password maps were compromised and the idea of > using NIS around here again has not been well received. > > Are they any ideas that would help with this problem (and, no, we can't > just depricate the AIX boxes, no matter how much I'd love to)? If you add the "des" package to your FreeBSD system, it will use the standard UNIX password encryption algorithm. The passwords will not appear in /etc/passwd, however, so you won't be able to simply rdist them. It's been a while since I worked with AIX, so bear with me on this. If I remember correctly, the true source for the password entries on AIX is in a file somewhere in the /etc/secure directory. The file uses the AIX "stanza" format, so you'll have to write a filter program to convert between the FreeBSD format and the AIX format. It should be pretty simple to write a script that converts from one format to the other in temporary file, then rdists the first format to all like machines and the temporary file to all "foreign" machines. I.e., if your "password master" is an AIX system, convert the AIX /etc/secure/whatever into FreeBSD format at /tmp/passwd, then send /etc/secure/whatever to the AIX boxes and /tmp/passwd to the FreeBSD boxes at /etc/master.passwd. Good luck! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 20:54:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20558 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20551 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-198.konnections.com (ip185-210.konnections.com [207.173.185.210]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id VAA20168; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:50:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-198.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCD4FD.EB6795E0@ip185-198.konnections.com>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:54:30 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCD4FD.EB6795E0@ip185-198.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: Marco Molteni , "'Wes Peters'" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:54:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA20552 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Which is why Robert Reich correctly observed that it's no longer what the corporation puts into the box the counts but rather the centers of knowledge and intuition. I might add to that passion. I've just seen so much lack of passion. Remind me of Mickey Roarke in Year of the Dragon when someone complains that he "Cares too much". He replied "How can you care too much...?" I wonder that myself, but I see so much apathy at every level. You think it's hard working with coworkers or subordinates that don't care, try a boss, or a CEO. It's hard to stay excited when you work on an eath shattering project for a week of sleepless nights only to receive a limp 'huh' in response.... Mike Allison ---------- From: Wes Peters Sent: Thursday, October 09, 1997 9:21 PM To: Marco Molteni Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) This laziness found in students is true in the industry as well -- prepare to be very disappointed with a majority of your co-workers upon graduation. If you manage to fall into a group where most of the people actually care about what they do, as I have several times, consider yourself lucky and ride it as long as you can. Sooner or later the company will hire some moron to manage the group and he will utterly destroy it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 21:07:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21162 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21142; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:07:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA21563; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:37:00 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971010133659.15587@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:36:59 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: Gary Palmer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) References: <18394.876437342@orion.webspan.net> <199710100329.VAA02913@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710100329.VAA02913@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Oct 09, 1997 at 09:29:59PM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Oct 09, 1997 at 09:29:59PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Gary Palmer writes: >> Err? Gordon Lehey? Never heard of him :) >> >> Try `Greg' :) > > All you "G" men sound alike. ;^) Hmmm. I was wondering whether it was a side effect of being called 'grog'. And to think that Annelise and I have actually met... > Thanks for being so polite in your correction, though. Chat has seemed > quite social, except for the ongoing CVS tag vs. release name war, for > quite some time now. Are you asking for a change? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 9 22:51:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25574 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:51:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25559 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:51:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id HAA09590 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:51:25 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id HAA22666; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:48:13 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971010074813.WR25496@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:48:13 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: password question References: <199710100336.VAA02922@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199710100336.VAA02922@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Oct 9, 1997 21:36:06 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Wes Peters wrote: > It's been a while since I worked with AIX, so bear with me on this. If > I remember correctly, the true source for the password entries on AIX is > in a file somewhere in the /etc/secure directory. /etc/security/passwd: j: password = 7iQAjV5h2mof. lastupdate = 830766071 flags = And yes, the passwords are DES-encrypted there, i've just checked. (Don't attempt to run crack over the above. For one, i doubt my password could be guessed with a dictionary, but even then, i've toggled a number of characters here as well. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 10 02:22:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA04713 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 02:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA04708 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 02:22:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA05952; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:52:28 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971010185227.17440@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:52:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Re: Linux vs freeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (forwarded to -chat) The background of this discussion is a comparison between FreeBSD and Linux that I wrote for "The Complete FreeBSD". Here goes; there's more from David Kelly after it. FreeBSD and Linux Linux is a clone of UNIX written by Linus Torvalds, a student in Helsinki, Finland. At the time, the BSD sources were not freely available, and so Linus wrote his own version of UNIX. Linux is a superb example of how a few dedicated, clever people can produce an operating system that is better than well-known commercial systems developed by a large number of trained software engineers. It is better even than a number of commercial UNIX systems. Obviously, I don't think Linux is as good as FreeBSD, or I wouldn't be writing this book, but the differences between FreeBSD and Linux are more a matter of philosophy rather than of concept. Here are a few contrasts: Table 1-1. Differences between FreeBSD and Linux FreeBSD is a direct descendent of the Linux is a clone and never contained any original UNIX, though it contains no AT&T code residual AT&T code. FreeBSD is a complete operating system, Linux is a kernel, personally maintained maintained by a central group of soft- by a Linus Torvalds. The non-kernel ware developers. There is only one programs supplied with Linux are part of distribution of FreeBSD. a distribution, of which there are sev- eral. FreeBSD aims to be a stable production Linux is still a ``bleeding edge'' de- environment. velopment environment, though many dis- tributions aim to make it more suitable for production use. As a result of the centralized develop- The ease of installation of Linux de- ment style, FreeBSD is straightforward pends on the ``distribution''. If you and easy to install. switch from one distribution of Linux to another, you'll have to learn a new set of installation tools. FreeBSD is still relatively unknown, Linux did not have any lawsuits to since its distribution was restricted contend with, so for a long time it was for a long time due to the AT&T law- the only free UNIX-type system avail- suits. able. As a result of the lack of knowledge of A growing amount of commercial software FreeBSD, not much commercial software is is becoming available for Linux. available for it. As a result of the smaller user base, Just about any new board will soon have FreeBSD is less likely to have drivers a driver for Linux. for brand-new boards than Linux. Because of the lack of commercial appli- Linux appears not to need to be able to cations and drivers, FreeBSD will run run FreeBSD programs or drivers. most Linux programs, whether commercial or not. It's also relatively simple to port Linux drivers to FreeBSD. FreeBSD has a large number of afficiona- Linux has a large number of afficionados dos who are prepared to flame anybody who are prepared to flame anybody who who dares suggest that it's not better dares suggest that it's not better than than Linux. FreeBSD. In summary, Linux is also a very good operating system. For many, it's better than FreeBSD. It's a pity that so many people on both sides are prepared to flame each other. There are signs that both sides are learning to appreciate each other, and a number of people are now running both systems. So much to that; I welcome comments or corrections. Now to David's message. Greg >>> Drivers: Drivers are available for most standard hardware, right? >> >> OK. How about: >> >> As a result of the smaller user base, FreeBSD is less likely to have >> drivers for brand-new boards than Linux. > > Do we have any examples laying around of FreeBSD wanting for drivers > that exist in Linux? Or are we simply repeating what's always been said? > > An example would be ATAPI CDROM's and FreeBSD. In the past FreeBSD's > ATAPI support was slack. The reason I gathered was that nobody who was > capable of the task wanted to do it. > > Today, I don't know what the status is of the wd driver. But I'd guess > that its not being carressed into DMA, UltraDMA, mode 4.... the way a > Linux driver would be. As with ATAPI, its just not as interesting to > FreeBSD developers as SCSI. > > Speaking of interesting, tape handling has become a hot topic at work. > Am having fun reading Seagate's DAT SCSI manual. Meanwhile have ported > FreeBSD's tcopy to SGI. Time to start some enhancements. I'd like to > see FreeBSD's mt reply more like SGI's. And I may do it soon. > > In the driver discussion, some mention of the sharing of drivers > between FreeBSD and Linux is needed. > >>> (Annelise Anderson, I think) >>> >>> Also the kind a variety of support--the nature of the community-- >>> involved in Linux vs. FreeBSD is different.... >> >> I suppose that's true, but it's difficult to quantify from my >> perspective. Do you have any suggestions? > > Thought this and that above the [snip] were related. I subscribe to > some lists which are dominated by Linux users. Linux distributions > are quite different from each other. Have noticed vendors such as > Netscape specify exactly which Linux distribution and kernel their > product is compatible with. > > Authors of software distributed in source have to deal with users who > can't compile on XXXX's distribution because... you name it. Location > and version of ncurses comes to mind. Yeah, I know, there is supposed > to be a Linux File System standard specifying where these files are > to be put. > > I don't think its too far fetched to observere that its almost as > difficult to step between Linux's as between any other Unix. > > I can't pinpoint it, but I was doing a lot of SGI Irix when I was > attempting to do useful things with Linux in 1994. Then in 1995 > I switched to FreeBSD and was much more comfortable. The difference > in init bugged me for a little while but I flit between Irix and > FreeBSD without blinking. Now I've got to deal with Solaris 2.5.1 > and I'm back in a quagmire where nothing is where I expect it. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 10 20:42:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27669 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:42:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27664; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:42:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA29644; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:38:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Greg Lehey cc: Wes Peters , Gary Palmer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Digital, Intel, Silicon Graphics (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19971010133659.15587@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thu, Oct 09, 1997 at 09:29:59PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Gary Palmer writes: > >> Err? Gordon Lehey? Never heard of him :) > >> > >> Try `Greg' :) > > > > All you "G" men sound alike. ;^) > > Hmmm. I was wondering whether it was a side effect of being called > 'grog'. And to think that Annelise and I have actually met... Indeed we have. I am sorry; a terrible thing to do. I was wondering myself why I did that. Maybe there's something to the G man theory-- the other GL I've also met once is Gordon Liddy....(Liddy was an FBI agent before his more nafarious exploits in the Nixon re-election campaign). Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 10 22:18:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01140 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01135 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:17:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA04268; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:21:58 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:21:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710110521.XAA04268@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: password question In-Reply-To: <19971010074813.WR25496@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <199710100336.VAA02922@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19971010074813.WR25496@uriah.heep.sax.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I recently blathered: % It's been a while since I worked with AIX, so bear with me on this. If % I remember correctly, the true source for the password entries on AIX is % in a file somewhere in the /etc/secure directory. J. Wunsch replied: > /etc/security/passwd: > > j: > password = 7iQAjV5h2mof. > lastupdate = 830766071 > flags = > > And yes, the passwords are DES-encrypted there, i've just checked. > (Don't attempt to run crack over the above. For one, i doubt my > password could be guessed with a dictionary, but even then, i've > toggled a number of characters here as well. :) Gee, my memory was pretty good. I used to have nightmares about these things, until I sat down one day and wrote a "stanza parser" for our library. That made me appreciate how and why they did it the way they did. My brother, who now works on AIX professionally at Motorola, says my routine must have been better than the IBM-supplied ones; he hates them. Perhaps my pain threshold was just higher. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 01:52:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09155 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA09150 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA00597 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:52:04 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id HAA16271; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:59:27 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971011075927.ZV28494@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:59:27 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: password question References: <199710100336.VAA02922@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19971010074813.WR25496@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199710110521.XAA04268@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199710110521.XAA04268@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Oct 10, 1997 23:21:58 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Wes Peters wrote: > Gee, my memory was pretty good. I used to have nightmares about these > things, until I sat down one day and wrote a "stanza parser" for our > library. That made me appreciate how and why they did it the way they > did. I think such a parser would be fairly small in Perl. :) The only odd thing with their stanzas was that they have one file (forgot which one) where the same key could appear twice. The meaning was then dependent on the context (which is an ugly thing to do in a database-like configuration file). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 02:52:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA11300 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:52:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA11294 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01174; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:19:03 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710110949.TAA01174@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat , dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Linux vs freeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:52:27 +0930." <19971010185227.17440@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:19:02 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (David Kelly) > > Do we have any examples laying around of FreeBSD wanting for drivers > > that exist in Linux? Or are we simply repeating what's always been said? There are a few that come to mind; the Buslogic Flashpoint controllers, Token Ring cards, some Xircom hardware I believe. > > An example would be ATAPI CDROM's and FreeBSD. In the past FreeBSD's > > ATAPI support was slack. The reason I gathered was that nobody who was > > capable of the task wanted to do it. It's always better to ask about these things. The ATAPI support was slack because the people who demanded it were unwilling to do the work, and the people that were willing and capable didn't have the time or resources. That's mostly not an issue these days. > > Today, I don't know what the status is of the wd driver. But I'd guess > > that its not being carressed into DMA, UltraDMA, mode 4.... the way a > > Linux driver would be. As with ATAPI, its just not as interesting to > > FreeBSD developers as SCSI. That is, of course, complete crap, as anyone that's been following this would be able to observe: - the PIO mode setting has always been the BIOS' responsibility; FreeBSD uses whatever the BIOS set. - DMA and UDMA33 are both supported in 3.x. These aren't hot items for the stability-oriented 2.2, but they exist and seem to work pretty well. > > In the driver discussion, some mention of the sharing of drivers > > between FreeBSD and Linux is needed. This is hard. I guess you can cover the fact that FreeBSD has on some occasions been able to leverage the information obtained by Linux developers in order to create and/or improve drivers, but the Linux driver model and typical source code license is such that it's hard to "share" drivers. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 07:00:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA20490 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:00:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mph124.rh.psu.edu (root@MPH124.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA20375 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hunt@mph124.rh.psu.edu) Received: (from hunt@localhost) by mph124.rh.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19732; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19971011093328.25901@mph124.rh.psu.edu> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:33:28 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: LINUX emulation and uname(3). References: <199710101754.HAA17182@pegasus.com> <199710110719.QAA00683@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: <199710110719.QAA00683@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Oct 11, 1997 at 04:49:09PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Oct 11, 1997 at 04:49:09PM +0930, Mike Smith wrote: > We are FreeBSD. You will be assimiliated? -- Matthew Hunt * Think locally, act globally. finger hunt@mph124.rh.psu.edu for PGP public key. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 10:31:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28778 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28763 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:31:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08510; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710111729.KAA08510@rah.star-gate.com> To: Mike Smith cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat , dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Linux vs freeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:19:02 +0930." <199710110949.TAA01174@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:29:54 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Mike Smith : > This is hard. I guess you can cover the fact that FreeBSD has on some > occasions been able to leverage the information obtained by Linux > developers in order to create and/or improve drivers, but the Linux > driver model and typical source code license is such that it's hard to > "share" drivers. 1. We share the X distribution 2. We share the linux sound driver distribution well granted not as much these days. 3. We share the Bt848 video capture driver -- our Bt848 driver has been ported to BSDI and Linux Its a lot easier to share drivers with the linux crowd if we start the development . Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 13:33:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06004 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:33:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05999 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:33:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (max2-166.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.166]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16432 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:33:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA02585 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:08:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710112008.PAA02585@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: FreeBSD Chat From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Linux vs freeBSD In-reply-to: Message from Mike Smith of "Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:19:02 +0930." <199710110949.TAA01174@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:08:29 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith replies: > > > (David Kelly) > > > Do we have any examples laying around of FreeBSD wanting for drivers > > > that exist in Linux? Or are we simply repeating what's always been said? > > There are a few that come to mind; the Buslogic Flashpoint controllers, > Token Ring cards, some Xircom hardware I believe. I'll note that Linux has AX.25 (amateur packet radio) networking in the kernel, and FreeBSD doesn't. Are there any FreeBSD has that Linux lacks? > > > An example would be ATAPI CDROM's and FreeBSD. In the past FreeBSD's > > > ATAPI support was slack. The reason I gathered was that nobody who was > > > capable of the task wanted to do it. > > It's always better to ask about these things. The ATAPI support was > slack because the people who demanded it were unwilling to do the work, > and the people that were willing and capable didn't have the time or > resources. That's mostly not an issue these days. I think Mike restated exactly what I said. If someone wants to do something then they will make time. Taking it from another task, paying job, family, sleep. My original language was too brief. I don't track -current, don't subscribe to all the FreeBSD lists. Haven't had the time. But recently some things have come up that I'd like to enhance, so its time to make time. First, buy another HD... > > > Today, I don't know what the status is of the wd driver. But I'd guess > > > that its not being carressed into DMA, UltraDMA, mode 4.... the way a > > > Linux driver would be. As with ATAPI, its just not as interesting to > > > FreeBSD developers as SCSI. > > That is, of course, complete crap, as anyone that's been following this > would be able to observe: Did somebody get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning? I don't mean to sound as if I'm putting down the IDE/wd developer(s), as I'm not. It works for me. I never think about it if its not crashing. That's the way I like it. Thank-you, whoever you are. I'm wrong for saying, "I'd guess that its not being carressed..." but it took several readings of that sentence to see the error as I saw the emphasis on "...the way a Linux driver would be." and didn't mean to infer these features didn't or wouldn't exist. This relates to the stability issue: I have seen 3 Linuxen at a table in a computer flea market, each holding a different Linux distribution, reading aloud to each other the features/versions of each, attempting to decide which was the newest and most featured, and therefore the best one to buy. In that market failure to mention UDMA33 would be fatal. And that was the image I had in mind when I wrote that sentence. > > > In the driver discussion, some mention of the sharing of drivers > > > between FreeBSD and Linux is needed. > > This is hard. I guess you can cover the fact that FreeBSD has on some > occasions been able to leverage the information obtained by Linux > developers in order to create and/or improve drivers, but the Linux > driver model and typical source code license is such that it's hard to > "share" drivers. Was thinking of Linux using FreeBSD drivers, or drivers that FreeBSD also uses. Adaptec 2940 and DEC Tulip 2x14x have been mentioned in this context before. There was also a case where the author agreed to remove GPL from the FreeBSD banch of his code, wasn't there? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 19:35:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23553 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:35:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (dcarmich.pr.mcs.net [204.95.63.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23534 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:34:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcarmich@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net) Received: (from dcarmich@localhost) by dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00335; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:36:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Douglas Carmichael Message-Id: <199710120236.VAA00335@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> Subject: FreeBSD rocks! (again with version #2) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, lsmith@lr.net Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:36:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here's the new, improved version of the FreeBSD "Smoke On The Water". Enjoy, and rock on! :-) Musicians (joke for the parody CD cover): David Greenman - lead guitar, vocals Poul-Henning Kamp - organ, keyboards Jordan Hubbard - bass Soren Schmidt - drums Deep Purple Machine Head Smoke On The Water (FreeBSD version #2) We all came out to Walnut Creek On the San Francisco shoreline To make CDs with a mobile We didn't have much time David Greenman and the others Were at the best place around But some stupid little committers Burned the place to the ground Smoke on the water, fire in the sky They burned down wc-archive's house It died with an awful sound CVS was checking in and out Pulling code out the ground When it all was over We had to find another place But systime was running out It seemed that we would lose the race Smoke on the water, fire in the sky We ended up at the CSRG Hotel It was empty cold and bare But with the three-point-oh-current thing just outside Making our OS there With a few red lights and a few old beds We make a place to sweat No matter what we get out of this I know we'll never forget Smoke on the water, fire in the sky From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 19:49:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24057 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (dcarmich.pr.mcs.net [204.95.63.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24043 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:49:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcarmich@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net) Received: (from dcarmich@localhost) by dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00435; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:52:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Douglas Carmichael Message-Id: <199710120252.VAA00435@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> Subject: "Rock 'N Roll BSD" (another anthem) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, lsmith@lr.net Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:52:31 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Keep on rockin' ! :-) Lyrics Server Song Display _________________________________________________________________ Home Normal | Approximative | Browse | Fulltext _________________________________________________________________ Derringer Rick All American Boy Rock N Roll, Hoochie Coo. (Rock N Roll BSD parody by Douglas Carmichael - dcarmich@mcs.com) Rock n Roll, BSD. couldn't stop moving when it first took hold it was a warm spring night at the Berkeley hall there was a group called CSRG they were layin it down doncha know we never gonna lose that funky sound Rock n roll BSD rock n roll BSD <- background singers Microslothies, don't you see? don't you see < - background singers Rock n roll BSD rock n roll BSD <- background singers Microslothies, don't you see? swapper starts a pagin bout this time a year I'm goin round /kernel said it'll meet me there we were rollin in (up?) the C code for LKMs when my hair started' greenin' like an artichoke steeem. (chorus) (spoken) did somebody say keep on rockin? (guitar solo) I hope you all know what I'm talkin about the way they write that thing really knocks me out gettin high all the time, hope you all are too come on little Gatesy gonna do it to you (chorus) x 2 that i'm tired of WinNT rock n roll BSD <- background singers Microsofties, don't you see? rock n roll BSD <- background singers Microsofties, dont you seeeeeeeee? (aaoww!) Ben Burdette bburdette@mindspring.com _________________________________________________________________ Correction Service is temporary offline. _________________________________________________________________ Click here if you need assistance. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 20:21:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA25269 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25186 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA02179; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:18:41 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199710120318.WAA02179@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs freeBSD In-Reply-To: <199710112008.PAA02585@nospam.hiwaay.net> from "dkelly@hiwaay.net" at "Oct 11, 97 03:08:29 pm" To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:18:41 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dkelly@hiwaay.net said: > > I'm wrong for saying, "I'd guess that its not being carressed..." > but it took several readings of that sentence to see the error as > I saw the emphasis on "...the way a Linux driver would be." and > didn't mean to infer these features didn't or wouldn't exist. This > relates to the stability issue: I have seen 3 Linuxen at a table in > a computer flea market, each holding a different Linux distribution, > reading aloud to each other the features/versions of each, attempting > to decide which was the newest and most featured, and therefore the > best one to buy. In that market failure to mention UDMA33 would be > fatal. And that was the image I had in mind when I wrote that > sentence. > I don't know if it is wise to add to this discussion or not :-). I am one of the people who hack on the wd driver, but certainly not the owner of it. One of the differences between FBSD and Linux is that we on FBSD tend to avoid touting features. I don't know why if it is cultural or fear :-). For example, given my interest in being "responsible", I tend not to tell people about things that are really new. So often, people use FBSD in mission critical applications, and when new, but green features are crowed about, it eventually causes lots of bug reports about something broken in -current, that is shutting down a $10M business. After moving from -current to -stable (usually 6mos to 1yr later), we -current developers aren't that excited about those new features, and our "advertising literature" is missing the feature. Specifically, we have been "supporting" UDMA33 in -current since we (John Hood?) added the DMA code several months ago or so. The place for most of the setup IS in the bios. UDMA33 sometimes requires support for rogue devices (for example, the Promise Ultra/33 controller), but is pretty consistant for PIIX* controllers from Intel. I do understand your point about making sure that it is clear what we support or don't support for pseudo-competitive analysis, but don't know the best way to fix the problem. :-(. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 20:56:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26463 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:56:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from axp1.wku.edu (SYSTEM@axp1.wku.edu [161.6.18.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26457 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:56:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sfuqua@pulsar.cs.wku.edu) Received: from pulsar.cs.wku.edu (161.6.17.52) by axp1.wku.edu (MX H5.0) with SMTP; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:56:15 -0500 Received: by pulsar.cs.wku.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA09609; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:51:11 -0500 From: sfuqua@pulsar.cs.wku.edu (Stephen Fuqua) Message-ID: <199710120351.WAA09609@pulsar.cs.wku.edu> Subject: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:51:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm writing a short paper as part of my MS comparing BSD with Linux and Minix for use in an undergraduate operating systems course. The idea would be to compare these systems in terms of using them for a class some C programming and some simple kernel programming exercises like adding a pseudo device or a "do-nothing" system call, and some code reading. At this point I see one big difference between Minix and the other two systems, Minix's source code is tiny compared to BSD or Linux. The author has intentionally kept it simple. Minix also differs in that it is a microkernel. While minix is less intimidating in terms of size, finding ones way around the Linux and BSD source is pretty easy too. Other than size, I've run some different complexity measures on the code in all three systems, and it doesn't look like I'm going to find any significant differences in the amount of comments, length of functions, cyclomatic complexity, etc between the three, despite what one might expect based on their backgrounds. All three are easy to install on supported hardware for people who read directions; Linux(Redhat) and BSD(Freebsd) are have colorful, easy to follow menu based install programs. While people have ported some of software to Minix -- both Linux and BSD come with huge selections of easily installed, ported software. There is no great difference in performance between BSD and Linux. Minix is the only choice for people stuck with 286's, both BSD and Linux run on a huge variety of pc hardware for 386's on up. While it is difficult to find hard numbers -- it appears that clear Linux has the largest user base, BSD is second, and Minix last. Minix comes with an excellent textbook. Linux has a wealth of documentation for beginners, but this documentation is uneven in quality. BSD has the best in depth, advanced documentation, the system manuals from O'Reilly, the _Source Code Secrets_ series, and the _Design and Implementation_ book. Both BSD and Linux are full fledged varieties of Unix, capable of holding their own against commercial versions of Unix. Users who have experience with System V may feel slightly more at home with Linux, while FreeBSD *is* BSD unix. Have I missed anything, or been unfair anywhere? steve fuqua From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 21:00:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26606 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26600 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-201.konnections.com (ip185-201.konnections.com [207.173.185.201]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id VAA01658; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:56:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-201.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCD691.0728D610@ip185-201.konnections.com>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:00:03 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCD691.0728D610@ip185-201.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: "dkelly@hiwaay.net" , "'John S. Dyson'" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Linux vs freeBSD Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:00:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA26601 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John: I remember we discussed this a few months ago when discussing having a "new developments" sort of list or file where commercial developers could go to see what's new to exploit and alos see what changes might affect their product. I still think that's needed to some degree. I see some Linux distributions which claim expanded capabilities, or some such and it would be nice to know exactly how they were expanded to see if I want to bother with it. Or, knowing what was new and whether it would run under previous versions so I could just ;oad the app or utility without messing with the system. -Mike ---------- From: John S. Dyson Sent: Saturday, October 11, 1997 9:18 PM To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs freeBSD I don't know if it is wise to add to this discussion or not :-). I am one of the people who hack on the wd driver, but certainly not the owner of it. One of the differences between FBSD and Linux is that we on FBSD tend to avoid touting features. I don't know why if it is cultural or fear :-). For example, given my interest in being "responsible", I tend not to tell people about things that are really new. So often, people use FBSD in mission critical applications, and when new, but green features are crowed about, it eventually causes lots of bug reports about something broken in -current, that is shutting down a $10M business. After moving from -current to -stable (usually 6mos to 1yr later), we -current developers aren't that excited about those new features, and our "advertising literature" is missing the feature. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 21:27:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA27400 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27395 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA08353; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:57:13 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971012135712.16377@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:57:12 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Stephen Fuqua Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course References: <199710120351.WAA09609@pulsar.cs.wku.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710120351.WAA09609@pulsar.cs.wku.edu>; from Stephen Fuqua on Sat, Oct 11, 1997 at 10:51:10PM -0500 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Oct 11, 1997 at 10:51:10PM -0500, Stephen Fuqua wrote: > I'm writing a short paper as part of my MS comparing BSD with Linux and > Minix for use in an undergraduate operating systems course. The idea > would be to compare these systems in terms of using them for a class some > C programming and some simple kernel programming exercises like adding a > pseudo device or a "do-nothing" system call, and some code reading. > > At this point I see one big difference between Minix and the other two > systems, Minix's source code is tiny compared to BSD or Linux. The author > has intentionally kept it simple. Minix also differs in that it is a > microkernel. While minix is less intimidating in terms of size, finding > ones way around the Linux and BSD source is pretty easy too. Other than > size, I've run some different complexity measures on the code in all three > systems, and it doesn't look like I'm going to find any significant > differences in the amount of comments, length of functions, cyclomatic > complexity, etc between the three, despite what one might expect based on > their backgrounds. Indeed. I'm a little surprised about this. Maybe a little more investigation would be worthwhile. > All three are easy to install on supported hardware for people who > read directions; Linux(Redhat) and BSD(Freebsd) are have colorful, > easy to follow menu based install programs. While people have > ported some of software to Minix -- both Linux and BSD come with > huge selections of easily installed, ported software. This is a point that somebody recently raised about my comparison of the two. The FreeBSD Ports Collection is definitely a great advantage. I'm told that Linux doesn't offer this degree of ease in porting. Since I need to consider whether I put this in my book, I'd be interested in discussing the matter. > There is no great difference in performance between BSD and Linux. > Minix is the only choice for people stuck with 286's, both BSD and > Linux run on a huge variety of pc hardware for 386's on up. While > it is difficult to find hard numbers -- it appears that clear Linux > has the largest user base, BSD is second, and Minix last. I think you can use the >> operator here in each comparison. > Minix comes with an excellent textbook. Linux has a wealth of > documentation for beginners, but this documentation is uneven in > quality. BSD has the best in depth, advanced documentation, the > system manuals from O'Reilly, the _Source Code Secrets_ series, and > the _Design and Implementation_ book. Well observed. A lot of people complain that there is only one English-language book on FreeBSD, but this isn't correct. > Both BSD and Linux are full fledged varieties of Unix, One could discuss your use of the word "variety". We FreeBSD people are proud of the distinction between "clone" and "disowned child". > capable of holding their own against commercial versions of Unix. > Users who have experience with System V may feel slightly more at > home with Linux, while FreeBSD *is* BSD unix. It's been a while since I used Linux. A lot of people say this (that System V people would be more at home with Linux), but with a couple of minor exceptions (ps command, run states) I'm not sure that there's much difference. In fact, Linux is probably a lot closer to FreeBSD than it is to System V. > Have I missed anything, or been unfair anywhere? I can't see that you've been unfair here. I'm sure you've missed something :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 22:41:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29842 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:41:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust130.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29824 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@wakky.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id BAA04911; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19971012014137.37529@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:41:37 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <199710120351.WAA09609@pulsar.cs.wku.edu> <19971012135712.16377@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19971012135712.16377@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Oct 12, 1997 at 01:57:12PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Oct 12, 1997 at 01:57:12PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > It's been a while since I used Linux. A lot of people say this (that > System V people would be more at home with Linux), but with a couple > of minor exceptions (ps command, run states) I'm not sure that there's > much difference. In fact, Linux is probably a lot closer to FreeBSD > than it is to System V. To be honest, there isn't. It may have SysV init, and some of the device names have that "SysY-ish" look to them, but the directory layout and general utilities parallel 4.3/4.4BSD for the most part. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 11 23:51:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02564 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02559 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id IAA15867 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:51:07 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA02256; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:44:07 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971012084407.VZ15392@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:44:07 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD rocks! (again with version #2) References: <199710120236.VAA00335@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199710120236.VAA00335@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net>; from Douglas Carmichael on Oct 11, 1997 21:36:57 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Douglas Carmichael wrote: > Musicians (joke for the parody CD cover): > David Greenman - lead guitar, vocals > Poul-Henning Kamp - organ, keyboards > Jordan Hubbard - bass > Soren Schmidt - drums Satoshi's _not_ singing? ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)