From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 07:07:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07753 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 07:07:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07744 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 07:07:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from panke.panke.de (anonymous219.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.219]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25379; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:01:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by panke.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00526; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:58:06 +0200 (MET DST) To: Andreas Klemm Cc: Ian Struble , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <19971014112528.09598@lemis.com> <19971016080918.15305@klemm.gtn.com> From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 19 Oct 1997 14:58:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: Andreas Klemm's message of Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:09:18 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 13 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andreas Klemm writes: > On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 06:30:42PM -0700, Ian Struble wrote: > > On a more FreeBSD note, I read something in SunExpert(1-2 months ago?) > > that was touting FreeBSD loud and clear. I have been off the mailing > > lists for a few months but I will see if I can't find the article > > again if someone wants to read it themselves. > > What's SunExpert ? An online magazine ? A paper magazine for Sun users. Pure Unix, no NT ;-) -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 09:08:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15731 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 09:08:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from saffron.fsl.noaa.gov (saffron.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15720 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 09:08:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@fsl.noaa.gov) Received: from fsl.noaa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by saffron.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01478; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:04:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <344A2FA0.AA9F3721@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:04:49 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wolfram Schneider CC: Andreas Klemm , Ian Struble , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <19971014112528.09598@lemis.com> <19971016080918.15305@klemm.gtn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > What's SunExpert ? An online magazine ? > A paper magazine for Sun users. Pure Unix, no NT ;-) If only that were the case. From the cover of this month's issue: | Incorporating RS/Magazine | SUNEXPERT | The Server/Workstation Magazine for UNIX/NT IS Managers There's also a regular column called NTegration. :-( --Sean From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 10:13:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19341 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:13:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19336 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:13:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-231.konnections.com (ip185-231.konnections.com [207.173.185.231]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA18922; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:08:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-231.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCDC7F.CBE103D0@ip185-231.konnections.com>; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:11:49 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCDC7F.CBE103D0@ip185-231.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: Wolfram Schneider , "'Sean Kelly'" Cc: Andreas Klemm , Ian Struble , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:11:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA19337 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You can't pretend or deny that MS isn't important. If you ignore NT than you're effectively cutting your own throat. There are thousands who will not buy anything but, -Mike ---------- From: Sean Kelly Sent: Sunday, October 19, 1997 10:04 AM To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: Andreas Klemm; Ian Struble; chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p > > What's SunExpert ? An online magazine ? > A paper magazine for Sun users. Pure Unix, no NT ;-) If only that were the case. From the cover of this month's issue: | Incorporating RS/Magazine | SUNEXPERT | The Server/Workstation Magazine for UNIX/NT IS Managers There's also a regular column called NTegration. :-( --Sean From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 10:28:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20174 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from x225 (ppp1657.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20120; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:28:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@x225) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by x225 (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00274; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:24:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim@x225) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:24:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pulling email addresses from freebsd lists In-Reply-To: <199710191224.FAA04645@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > unfortunately, it does not check the subscriber address against > the "which" request. so a "which @" returns all the addresses > in the mailing lists. > > "which" has been diabled. Whoa! Did we need to disable that entirely? There isn't an easy way to simply limit it? -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 10:33:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20469 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20463; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199710191733.KAA20463@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: pulling email addresses from freebsd lists To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Oct 19, 97 01:24:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > unfortunately, it does not check the subscriber address against > > the "which" request. so a "which @" returns all the addresses > > in the mailing lists. > > > > "which" has been diabled. > > Whoa! Did we need to disable that entirely? There isn't an easy > way to simply limit it? after i change the code, i will reenable it. in the meantime, i wanted to stop people from harvesting the mailing lists. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 11:14:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22540 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22535 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by earth.mat.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA24929; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:12:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: Mike Allison cc: Wolfram Schneider , "'Sean Kelly'" , Andreas Klemm , Ian Struble , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: <01BCDC7F.CBE103D0@ip185-231.konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Mike Allison wrote: > You can't pretend or deny that MS isn't important. If you ignore NT > than you're effectively cutting your own throat. There are thousands > who will not buy anything but, > > -Mike Mike, that's totally false. Let me give an illuminating example. There are many stamp collectors who haven't the least interest in MS. There aren't nearly as many stamp collectors as there are MS customer's, but that doesn't invalidate stamp collectors as a group, nor mean that there couldn't be a stamp collecting magazine that totally ignores MS, and still sells well. There are more than enough people interested in Unix, to be able to support a magazine, and there is absoltely no reason whatsoever to require unix people (those who don't want to do MS stuff) to read MS stuff. There's plenty of room for all types, and anybody who says you have to cater to the biggest is showing prejudice. > > ---------- > From: Sean Kelly > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 1997 10:04 AM > To: Wolfram Schneider > Cc: Andreas Klemm; Ian Struble; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p > > > > What's SunExpert ? An online magazine ? > > A paper magazine for Sun users. Pure Unix, no NT ;-) > > If only that were the case. From the cover of this month's issue: > > | Incorporating RS/Magazine > | SUNEXPERT > | The Server/Workstation Magazine for UNIX/NT IS Managers > > There's also a regular column called NTegration. :-( > > --Sean > > > > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 11:53:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25523 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:53:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25510 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01282 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710191853.LAA01282@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 to: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:12:55 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:53:27 -0700 From: Amancio Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For the first time, I installed slackware3.3 on my spare ide drive. For starters, I was totally confused by the installation procedure, had to make boot floppies, and read the arcane installation instructions, it sort of reminded me of 386bsd. After I install the system, I went on to build a kernel -- interesting approach to config the kernel : make config which asks you a bunch of questions --- all of the sudden the Freebsd config file seem like a 21 first century super duper kernel configuation database 8) Not sure if linux has a network install package however I couldn't find it. I timed the kernel compilation it was about 4:46 vs 3:54 Freebsd current and I tried to trim down the linux kernel to something similar to the freebsd configuration. The linux installation is on very fast ide which at least according to iozone is faster than my scsi disks where I have freebsd on. Slackware left me with the impression that it was too slanted to hackers and for the life of me I can't figure out why people prefer linux to Freebsd -- it seems that Freebsd will be easier on newbies. Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 12:50:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28645 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:50:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28640 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA27047 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:50:27 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA01782; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:27:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971019212739.FI11018@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:27:39 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <199710191853.LAA01282@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199710191853.LAA01282@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio on Oct 19, 1997 11:53:27 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio wrote: > Slackware left me with the impression that it was too slanted to > hackers and for the life of me I can't figure out why people > prefer linux to Freebsd -- it seems that Freebsd will be easier > on newbies. I think Slackware's reputation ain't the best in this respect. So don't draw conclusions from a not-so-good Linux distribution, but have a look at the better ones, and compare. Jordan recently sent me Pacific Hitech's ``TurboLinux'' in order to evaluate their installer. It looks really pretty, compared to ours, and a lot more consistent (which is no surprise if you know about the odds and ends of libdialog sitting beneath our sysinstall). However, it was too less tested on legacy hardware before as it seems, so it was basically totally uninstallable on my scratchbox for a number of reasons. The worst reason was that the installer silently assumes that all the world's a VGA that can display 80x30, while my box has only an old Hercules card -- so i couldn't see a good part of the menues. :( -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 14:23:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02798 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02790 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:23:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA26651 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:23:25 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:23:24 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry Reply-To: Andrew Perry To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pulling email addresses from freebsd lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk How do we find out which mail addresses we are subscribed to? Andrew Perry andrew@shoal.net.au On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > unfortunately, it does not check the subscriber address against > > the "which" request. so a "which @" returns all the addresses > > in the mailing lists. > > > > "which" has been diabled. > > Whoa! Did we need to disable that entirely? There isn't an easy > way to simply limit it? > > > -- > tIM...HOEk > OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names > hoping that the resultant code will run faster. > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 14:25:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02928 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cs.iastate.edu (root@cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02920 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:25:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu) Received: from popeye.cs.iastate.edu (popeye.cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.4]) by cs.iastate.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29399; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:25:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (ghelmer@localhost) by popeye.cs.iastate.edu (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA21139; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:25:45 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: popeye.cs.iastate.edu: ghelmer owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:25:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Guy Helmer To: Amancio cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: <199710191853.LAA01282@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Amancio wrote: > For the first time, I installed slackware3.3 on my spare ide drive. > For starters, I was totally confused by the installation procedure, I too recently had to do a couple of slackware 3.3 installs. I was surprised that there didn't seem to be a way to FTP the installation packages during install time, a la FreeBSD. It appeared the best way to install was to FTP the installation files into a FAT filesystem (i.e., drive C: in DOS). And how about the bazillion installation boot disks from which to choose? As for the kernel, it really surprised me that I couldn't just copy a new kernel into place and have it boot (LILO must keep a table of addresses of the kernel's disk blocks for INT 13 access at boot time?). > Not sure if linux has a network install package however I couldn't > find it. Are you refering to the "n" package for TCP/IP? > Slackware left me with the impression that it was too slanted to > hackers and for the life of me I can't figure out why people > prefer linux to Freebsd -- it seems that Freebsd will be easier > on newbies. Ditto. I also didn't like the requirement that one had to stay in front of the terminal to answer "yes/no" questions for each optional part of the packages (it appears this can be automated, but I prefer FreeBSD's approach of interactively pre-selecting the pieces before the install begins). Guy Helmer, Computer Science Graduate Student - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu Iowa State University http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer Research Assistant, Scalable Computing Laboratory, Ames Laboratory From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 15:55:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06991 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:55:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06979 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:55:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00707; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710192254.PAA00707@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Guy Helmer cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:25:44 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:54:53 -0700 From: Amancio Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, Yeap, I was very confused as to what boot kernel to use , I really don't expect your typical user to be that savvy about chosing the right boot disk execpt of course by trial and error . Also, the two boot disk installation approach was cute however I really felt at home went I log on to the boot installation process -- so you boot the floppy or whatever after the system comes up you log on . The console output felt sluggish compare to freebsd . "make world" and cvsup on linux are broken 8) BTW: does anyone know whats on the "d" section of the slackware distribution , very, very doshish if you ask me -- thats a joke folks. Well, I am safely back to FreeBSD 8) Cheers, Amancio > On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Amancio wrote: > > > For the first time, I installed slackware3.3 on my spare ide drive. > > For starters, I was totally confused by the installation procedure, > > I too recently had to do a couple of slackware 3.3 installs. > > I was surprised that there didn't seem to be a way to FTP the > installation packages during install time, a la FreeBSD. It appeared the > best way to install was to FTP the installation files into a FAT > filesystem (i.e., drive C: in DOS). And how about the bazillion > installation boot disks from which to choose? > > As for the kernel, it really surprised me that I couldn't just copy a new > kernel into place and have it boot (LILO must keep a table of addresses > of the kernel's disk blocks for INT 13 access at boot time?). > > > Not sure if linux has a network install package however I couldn't > > find it. > > Are you refering to the "n" package for TCP/IP? Tnks I am going to try to setup network -- wish me luck!! > > Slackware left me with the impression that it was too slanted to > > hackers and for the life of me I can't figure out why people > > prefer linux to Freebsd -- it seems that Freebsd will be easier > > on newbies. > > Ditto. I also didn't like the requirement that one had to stay in front > of the terminal to answer "yes/no" questions for each optional part of the > packages (it appears this can be automated, but I prefer FreeBSD's > approach of interactively pre-selecting the pieces before the install > begins). > > Guy Helmer, Computer Science Graduate Student - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu > Iowa State University http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer > Research Assistant, Scalable Computing Laboratory, Ames Laboratory > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 15:55:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07008 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07003 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-182.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.182]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA20295 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:55:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA11285 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:55:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710192255.RAA11285@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Message from Amancio of "Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:53:27 PDT." <199710191853.LAA01282@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:55:36 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Not sure if linux has a network install package however I couldn't > find it. Have you uncovered a *LINUX* limitation or a *Slackware* limitation? Since when did the Linux kernel dictate installation technique? When itemizing the great things about FreeBSD and the shortcomings of Linux and its many distributions, we need to keep the facts strictly honest else we demonstrate we don't really know what we're saying about Linux. Then we can list "honesty" as a positive feature of FreeBSD users. :-) But seriously, when I was trying to do something useful with Linux I subscribed to most every Linux mail list I could find. For a while at least. The noise-to-signal ratios were sky high. Almost never got a reply to any honest question. And most every post seemed to go out of its way to slam Microsoft somehow. I don't particularly like Microsoft, but then again I don't particularly like the color of my neighbor's new roof either. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 16:05:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07494 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:05:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07483 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:05:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00752; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710192304.QAA00752@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:27:39 +0200." <19971019212739.FI11018@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:04:53 -0700 From: Amancio Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Great, I wish you had told that earlier that not RedHad, Slackware nor whatever rather Pacific Hitech's TurboLinux" was to the way to go. Honest, I went to this computer store, Central Computers , Stevens Creek , Cupertino, Ca., and I saw FreeBSD 2.2.2 cdroms and about 5 different linux CDROM distributions so I picked the closest one to me . Cheers, Amancio > As Amancio wrote: > > > Slackware left me with the impression that it was too slanted to > > hackers and for the life of me I can't figure out why people > > prefer linux to Freebsd -- it seems that Freebsd will be easier > > on newbies. > > I think Slackware's reputation ain't the best in this respect. So > don't draw conclusions from a not-so-good Linux distribution, but have > a look at the better ones, and compare. > > Jordan recently sent me Pacific Hitech's ``TurboLinux'' in order to > evaluate their installer. It looks really pretty, compared to ours, > and a lot more consistent (which is no surprise if you know about the > odds and ends of libdialog sitting beneath our sysinstall). However, > it was too less tested on legacy hardware before as it seems, so it > was basically totally uninstallable on my scratchbox for a number of > reasons. The worst reason was that the installer silently assumes > that all the world's a VGA that can display 80x30, while my box has > only an old Hercules card -- so i couldn't see a good part of the > menues. :( > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 16:15:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07934 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07925 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-231.konnections.com (ip185-209.konnections.com [207.173.185.209]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id RAA23842; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:10:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-231.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCDCB2.4F6575B0@ip185-231.konnections.com>; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:13:25 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCDCB2.4F6575B0@ip185-231.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: Mike Allison , "'Chuck Robey'" Cc: Wolfram Schneider , "'Sean Kelly'" , Andreas Klemm , Ian Struble , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:13:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck: I'm not saying that you have to cater to MS for any reason. But, if you write a magazine about SUN OS you write about NT integration for two reasons: First, there are many NT systems out there and many SUN systems it's wrong not to talk about integration. Whether you or I like it or not, NT integration is an issue. Second, if you pave the way for integration, maybe some of those married to NT will see what a real system can do and will be, on some level, attracted to UNIX as an alternative. There are many stamp collectors who haven't heard about MS, but there are also many who have ONLY heard about MS. -Mike ---------- From: Chuck Robey Mike, that's totally false. Let me give an illuminating example. There are many stamp collectors who haven't the least interest in MS. There aren't nearly as many stamp collectors as there are MS customer's, but that doesn't invalidate stamp collectors as a group, nor mean that there couldn't be a stamp collecting magazine that totally ignores MS, and still sells well. There are more than enough people interested in Unix, to be able to support a magazine, and there is absoltely no reason whatsoever to require unix people (those who don't want to do MS stuff) to read MS stuff. There's plenty of room for all types, and anybody who says you have to cater to the biggest is showing prejudice. > > ---------- > From: Sean Kelly > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 1997 10:04 AM > To: Wolfram Schneider > Cc: Andreas Klemm; Ian Struble; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p > > > > What's SunExpert ? An online magazine ? > > A paper magazine for Sun users. Pure Unix, no NT ;-) > > If only that were the case. From the cover of this month's issue: > > | Incorporating RS/Magazine > | SUNEXPERT > | The Server/Workstation Magazine for UNIX/NT IS Managers > > There's also a regular column called NTegration. :-( > > --Sean > > > > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 16:36:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08912 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:36:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08907 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01394; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710192336.QAA01394@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: dkelly@HiWAAY.net cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:55:36 CDT." <199710192255.RAA11285@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:36:18 -0700 From: Amancio Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just installed the distribution and my posting was my "impression" and in fact what I am alluding at is that all is not that rosy in the linux camp as many of the linux enthusiast would like us to believe. Prior to me installing slackware my preconceived notion was that it was going to the best installation that any OS has been able to delivered and that I was going to compile the kernel blindly fast . > > > Not sure if linux has a network install package however I couldn't > > find it. > > Have you uncovered a *LINUX* limitation or a *Slackware* limitation? Since > when did the Linux kernel dictate installation technique? Probably both 8) Most likely there is no network install because probably linux network servers are not that installable --- it really takes a rock solid OS to do the job that ftp.freebsd.org does. Fortunatly in this case they can use ftp.freebsd.org if they ever decide to go that route 8) > When itemizing the great things about FreeBSD and the shortcomings of Linux > and its many distributions, we need to keep the facts strictly honest else > we demonstrate we don't really know what we're saying about Linux. You know what, I really don't know anything about Slackware, RedHat , Pacific Turbolinux or whatever so I am very honest at this level 8) > Then we can list "honesty" as a positive feature of FreeBSD users. :-) > > But seriously, when I was trying to do something useful with Linux I > subscribed to most every Linux mail list I could find. For a while at > least. The noise-to-signal ratios were sky high. Almost never got a reply > to any honest question. And most every post seemed to go out of its way to > slam Microsoft somehow. I don't particularly like Microsoft, but then again > I don't particularly like the color of my neighbor's new roof either. Phew, I thought we where bad is nice to know our neighbor is worse than us 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 16:44:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA09403 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09396 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:44:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id RAA18511; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:44:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA15173; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:48:11 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:48:10 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: dkelly@hiwaay.net cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: <199710192255.RAA11285@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > Not sure if linux has a network install package however I couldn't > > find it. > > Have you uncovered a *LINUX* limitation or a *Slackware* limitation? Since > when did the Linux kernel dictate installation technique? > > When itemizing the great things about FreeBSD and the shortcomings of Linux > and its many distributions, we need to keep the facts strictly honest else > we demonstrate we don't really know what we're saying about Linux. There is _VERY_ little bad you can say about Linux because it isn't an OS; a distribution is an OS, but Linux itself isn't really. If you say "Linux doesn't do bar", you get "oh, but distribution x which is in my basement and no one can use does". Along the same lines, all you have to do to say "Linux does foo, but you OS doesn't!" is show one Linux distribution somewhere that does it. Nothing necessarily bad about that, it just means "fair" comparisons are difficult and take a lot of effort because you have to itemize every major distribution. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 17:04:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10458 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10430; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA13539; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:34:00 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:34:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: Derrick Brown , FreeBSD Chat , Nick Johnson Subject: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) References: <344A5454.840C2955@prism.gatech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 03:43:54PM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Following up to -chat On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 03:43:54PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Derrick Brown wrote: > >> Your page SUCKS. > > Are you referring to > > http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~spatula/linux/ > > ? > > To the best of my knowledge, this page and person have no > official connection to FreeBSD than that of (evidentally) user > and (avid) supporter. We generally welcome all users and > supporters. As a project, we exercise no control over the > contents of the above page. You should email any suggestions or > opinions you have [regarding the above page] to whoever controls > it (apparently Nick Johnson ). > > Unlike Linux, FreeBSD is centrally controlled, and if you need > definitive information on FreeBSD, your first source should be > www.freebsd.org and the various mirrors, many of which also > provide translations (such as www.jp.freebsd.org). In case others haven't seen this, I suggest you take a look now. I think somebody should tell this guy that the average FreeBSD user doesn't think it's funny. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 17:04:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10498 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:04:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10486 for chat; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:04:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199710200004.RAA10486@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Gigabit Ethernet for NetBSD To: chat Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:04:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FYI SunExpert October 1997 p 99 Gigabit Ethernet NIC Out Gigabit netowrk product vendor Essential Communications has released a Gigabit Ethernet network interface card (NIC), which uses the company's JackRabbit chip set for PCI bus and supplies driver support for Solaris, AIX, Digital UNIX, IRIX, NetBSD, Windows NT, and VX Works operating systems. The single-slot PCI board contains a 32-bit RISC processor to handle Giigabit Ehtenet's fast network traffic without placing a burden on the host CPU. The JackRabbit NIC has also been tuned at the PCI level to maximize the full-duplex throughtput of incoming and outgoing network data, the company says. The JackRabbit NIC costs $1,995 for UNIX plaforms and $1,495 for Windows NT platforms. http://www.esscom.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 17:06:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10643 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:06:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from pompano.pcola.gulf.net (root@pompano.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10626; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:06:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spatula@gulf.net) Received: from localhost (spatula@localhost.gulf.net [127.0.0.1]) by pompano.pcola.gulf.net (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA06206; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:05:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:05:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Nick Johnson X-Sender: spatula@pompano.pcola.gulf.net To: Greg Lehey cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Derrick Brown , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) In-Reply-To: <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> Message-ID: X-Number-2: We want information... information... information!! X-This-sucks: Change it! X-Prisoner: I am not a number! I am a free man! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk And I think you should all be aware that I don't give a rat's ass. Bugger off. Nick On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > Following up to -chat > On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 03:43:54PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Derrick Brown wrote: > > > >> Your page SUCKS. > > > > Are you referring to > > > > http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~spatula/linux/ > > > > ? > > > > To the best of my knowledge, this page and person have no > > official connection to FreeBSD than that of (evidentally) user > > and (avid) supporter. We generally welcome all users and > > supporters. As a project, we exercise no control over the > > contents of the above page. You should email any suggestions or > > opinions you have [regarding the above page] to whoever controls > > it (apparently Nick Johnson ). > > > > Unlike Linux, FreeBSD is centrally controlled, and if you need > > definitive information on FreeBSD, your first source should be > > www.freebsd.org and the various mirrors, many of which also > > provide translations (such as www.jp.freebsd.org). > > In case others haven't seen this, I suggest you take a look now. I > think somebody should tell this guy that the average FreeBSD user > doesn't think it's funny. > > Greg > -- "Give me a place to stand, and I will move the earth." - Archimedes Nick Johnson, version 1.0 http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~spatula/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 17:34:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12530 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12477; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:34:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA13627; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:04:02 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971020100402.35951@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:04:02 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nick Johnson Cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Derrick Brown , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) References: <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Nick Johnson on Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 07:05:49PM -0500 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 07:05:49PM -0500, Nick Johnson wrote: > And I think you should all be aware that I don't give a rat's ass. Bugger > off. Well, that clarifies the matter. So far I had considered you misguided, not aggressive. I wonder if your behaviour will provoke retaliation. If I were you, I'd certainly check your security. Greg > On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Following up to -chat >> On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 03:43:54PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: >>> On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Derrick Brown wrote: >>> >>>> Your page SUCKS. >>> >>> Are you referring to >>> >>> http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~spatula/linux/ >>> >>> ? >>> >>> To the best of my knowledge, this page and person have no >>> official connection to FreeBSD than that of (evidentally) user >>> and (avid) supporter. We generally welcome all users and >>> supporters. As a project, we exercise no control over the >>> contents of the above page. You should email any suggestions or >>> opinions you have [regarding the above page] to whoever controls >>> it (apparently Nick Johnson ). >>> >>> Unlike Linux, FreeBSD is centrally controlled, and if you need >>> definitive information on FreeBSD, your first source should be >>> www.freebsd.org and the various mirrors, many of which also >>> provide translations (such as www.jp.freebsd.org). >> >> In case others haven't seen this, I suggest you take a look now. I >> think somebody should tell this guy that the average FreeBSD user >> doesn't think it's funny. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 17:38:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12832 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:38:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from pompano.pcola.gulf.net (root@pompano.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12813; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:38:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spatula@gulf.net) Received: from localhost (spatula@localhost.gulf.net [127.0.0.1]) by pompano.pcola.gulf.net (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA08959; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:38:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:38:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Nick Johnson X-Sender: spatula@pompano.pcola.gulf.net To: Greg Lehey cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Derrick Brown , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) In-Reply-To: <19971020100402.35951@lemis.com> Message-ID: X-Number-2: We want information... information... information!! X-This-sucks: Change it! X-Prisoner: I am not a number! I am a free man! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > Well, that clarifies the matter. So far I had considered you > misguided, not aggressive. I wonder if your behaviour will provoke > retaliation. If I were you, I'd certainly check your security. Are you threatening me, bunghole? Oh well. *plonk* Nick -- "Give me a place to stand, and I will move the earth." - Archimedes Nick Johnson, version 1.0 http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~spatula/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 18:47:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16768 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:47:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust104.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16751 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:47:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@wakky.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id VAA12510; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19971019214701.53568@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:47:01 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> <19971020100402.35951@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19971020100402.35951@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Oct 20, 1997 at 10:04:02AM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 20, 1997 at 10:04:02AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 07:05:49PM -0500, Nick Johnson wrote: > > And I think you should all be aware that I don't give a rat's ass. Bugger > > off. > > Well, that clarifies the matter. So far I had considered you > misguided, not aggressive. I wonder if your behaviour will provoke > retaliation. If I were you, I'd certainly check your security. > Security? Nah, I'm not gonna do that, I just added him to .procmailrc :) -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 18:55:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17292 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17284 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:55:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id TAA22754; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:55:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA15933; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:59:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:59:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko Reply-To: Marc Slemko To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) In-Reply-To: <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The solution? Simple; configure www.freebsd.org to redirect any requests that have a Referer: header from that page to a page that says "you know, morons use all OSes. That is an example of a FreeBSD-using moron. There are also Linux using morons, MacOS using morons and Plan 9 using morons. Don't take the word of any moron to represent the OS. Follow this link to go to the page originally requested; hope you like FreeBSD even if morons are allowed to use it". Easy to setup with Apache. However, that would require that the page matter and the fact is it doesn't. It is stupid; nothing more, nothing less. On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > Following up to -chat > On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 03:43:54PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Derrick Brown wrote: > > > >> Your page SUCKS. > > > > Are you referring to > > > > http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~spatula/linux/ > > > > ? > > > > To the best of my knowledge, this page and person have no > > official connection to FreeBSD than that of (evidentally) user > > and (avid) supporter. We generally welcome all users and > > supporters. As a project, we exercise no control over the > > contents of the above page. You should email any suggestions or > > opinions you have [regarding the above page] to whoever controls > > it (apparently Nick Johnson ). > > > > Unlike Linux, FreeBSD is centrally controlled, and if you need > > definitive information on FreeBSD, your first source should be > > www.freebsd.org and the various mirrors, many of which also > > provide translations (such as www.jp.freebsd.org). > > In case others haven't seen this, I suggest you take a look now. I > think somebody should tell this guy that the average FreeBSD user > doesn't think it's funny. > > Greg > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 19:01:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17690 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17678 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:01:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00509; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:27:07 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710200157.LAA00509@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Steve cc: chat@freebsd.org, filo@yahoo.com Subject: Re: BIOS Bootstrap incompatability; AL440LX at A4LL0X0.86A.0013.P03 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:35:52 MST." <199710200143.SAA25579@mailbox.intel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:27:06 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As this represents an official communication from Intel, rather than a private communication, I am copying my reply (containing the entire text of your response) to a number of interested parties, who may find your attitude enlightening. Please excuse the liberties I have taken in reformatting the following text in order to present it in a generally acceptable form. > >There is an apparent fault with the above BIOS which prevents FreeBSD > >(and other operating systems conforming to the BIOS Boot Specification > >1.01) from correctly bootstrapping. > > > >Section D.1 of the BBS 1.01 advises that the bootstrap should consult > >the value in the DL register in order to determine the BIOS unit > >number of the boot device. > > > >Unfortunately, the above BIOS revision is reported to pass DL in as > >zero, regardless of the boot device. Further details are available if > >required. > > Further details will not be necessary as FreeBDS is not one of the > tested operating system and is not supported. Please note that the above report is not a request for support for FreeBSD; it is notification that the referenced BIOS revision is in violation of the published Phoenix/Compaq/Intel BIOS Boot Specification, revision 1.01. A copy of this standard is available from Phoenix Technologies, via their online technical reference library. Any operating system conforming to this standard will not be able to boot correctly under this BIOS revision. This is a major flaw, and it seemed to be appropriate to notify Intel promptly so that it could be corrected. > It is in a similar catagory as Linix, there is a cost of media form of > this OS. Past experience with any of these operating systems is that > they do not support Plug and Play and have limited ability to support > all of the features of PCI cards. The user must choose OS supported > devices carefully, and must extend considerable effort in configuring > systems. I am not entirely sure what your point is here. Plug and Play and PCI issues have nothing whatsoever to do with a basic bug in the current AL440LX BIOS. I would also suggest that, at your convenience, you contact a consultant familiar with FreeBSD in order to remedy your obvious shortcomings in appreciation of the system. It is, after all, in your interest as a support representative to cater to the needs of your customers. > Please contact your operating system vendor for system > support. I would ask you to look again at the return address and affiliation on my original posting. I *represent* the operating system vendor. If there is a more appropriate channel through which technical issues may reach competent attention, I would appreciate a reference in order to resolve this issue. > Steve > Intel Internet Technical Support Regards, Mike Smith From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 20:01:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20765 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20755 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-231.konnections.com (ip185-213.konnections.com [207.173.185.213]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA27456; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:57:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-231.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCDCD2.24AB24D0@ip185-231.konnections.com>; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:01:17 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCDCD2.24AB24D0@ip185-231.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: "dkelly@hiwaay.net" , "'Marc Slemko'" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:01:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marc: This is at once Linux' strength and weakness. If you need something there's always a good distro that highlights it. Unfortunately, you have to find it. That's the beauty and purpose of having the source. This is the same principle that built BSD, if you think about it.... -Mike ---------- From: Marc Slemko Sent: Sunday, October 19, 1997 5:48 PM To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p There is _VERY_ little bad you can say about Linux because it isn't an OS; a distribution is an OS, but Linux itself isn't really. If you say "Linux doesn't do bar", you get "oh, but distribution x which is in my basement and no one can use does". Along the same lines, all you have to do to say "Linux does foo, but you OS doesn't!" is show one Linux distribution somewhere that does it. Nothing necessarily bad about that, it just means "fair" comparisons are difficult and take a lot of effort because you have to itemize every major distribution. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 20:07:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20987 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:07:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20976; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:07:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-231.konnections.com (ip185-213.konnections.com [207.173.185.213]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id VAA27560; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:03:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-231.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCDCD2.ECF5B5E0@ip185-231.konnections.com>; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:06:53 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCDCD2.ECF5B5E0@ip185-231.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: Greg Lehey , "'Nick Johnson'" Cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Derrick Brown , FreeBSD Chat Subject: RE: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:06:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I noticed Nick's only at Version 1.0. Maybe they'll improve his attitude in R2.0 -Mike ---------- From: Nick Johnson Sent: Sunday, October 19, 1997 6:38 PM To: Greg Lehey Cc: Tim Vanderhoek; Derrick Brown; FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) Are you threatening me, bunghole? Oh well. *plonk* Nick Nick Johnson, version 1.0 http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~spatula/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 21:07:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24104 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:07:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24071 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA00246; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:08:48 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:08:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710200408.WAA00246@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) In-Reply-To: <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> References: <344A5454.840C2955@prism.gatech.edu> <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > In case others haven't seen this, I suggest you take a look now. I > think somebody should tell this guy that the average FreeBSD user > doesn't think it's funny. I took a look. I don't think it's funny, but I'm not offended by it either. I don't agree with him, by the way, but think he has the right to express his own opinion. Now, if it had been an NT logo... ;^) But, since I'd have been amused by an NT logo, I can hardly fault him for the page as a concept, now can I? I did like the suggestion for a Referrer: trap, that's quite a cool idea. We could also apply it to persons coming in from that other gabage pit, microsoft.com. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 22:22:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28447 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28441 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA14174; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:52:23 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971020145223.31869@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:52:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: hcremean@vt.edu Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) References: <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> <19971020100402.35951@lemis.com> <19971019214701.53568@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <19971019214701.53568@wakky.dyn.ml.org>; from Lee Cremeans on Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 09:47:01PM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 09:47:01PM -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Mon, Oct 20, 1997 at 10:04:02AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 07:05:49PM -0500, Nick Johnson wrote: >>> And I think you should all be aware that I don't give a rat's ass. Bugger >>> off. >> >> Well, that clarifies the matter. So far I had considered you >> misguided, not aggressive. I wonder if your behaviour will provoke >> retaliation. If I were you, I'd certainly check your security. >> > > Security? Nah, I'm not gonna do that, I just added him to .procmailrc :) Unfortunately, that doesn't stop him from putting up this obnoxious web page which purports to come from FreeBSD. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 22:57:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00258 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:57:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00249 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA14307; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:27:20 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971020152720.55567@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:27:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) References: <344A5454.840C2955@prism.gatech.edu> <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> <199710200408.WAA00246@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710200408.WAA00246@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 10:08:48PM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Oct 19, 1997 at 10:08:48PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> In case others haven't seen this, I suggest you take a look now. I >> think somebody should tell this guy that the average FreeBSD user >> doesn't think it's funny. > > I took a look. I don't think it's funny, but I'm not offended by it > either. I don't agree with him, by the way, but think he has the right > to express his own opinion. > > Now, if it had been an NT logo... ;^) > > But, since I'd have been amused by an NT logo, I can hardly fault him > for the page as a concept, now can I? Agreed. I wrote the first message without expecting the violent reply. I thought he was a bona fide FreeBSD person who would be interested in our opinions. Obviously I was wrong. > I did like the suggestion for a Referrer: trap, that's quite a cool > idea. It's a nice idea. I wonder if anybody cares enough. > We could also apply it to persons coming in from that other gabage > pit, microsoft.com. ;^) Does Microsoft refer to us? We should at least count the links and investigate them if they do :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 19 23:07:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00729 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:07:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust104.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00718 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@wakky.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id CAA13395; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19971020020627.11599@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:06:27 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19971020093400.62100@lemis.com> <19971020100402.35951@lemis.com> <19971019214701.53568@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <19971020145223.31869@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19971020145223.31869@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Oct 20, 1997 at 02:52:23PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 20, 1997 at 02:52:23PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Security? Nah, I'm not gonna do that, I just added him to .procmailrc :) > > Unfortunately, that doesn't stop him from putting up this obnoxious > web page which purports to come from FreeBSD. True, but it keeps me from seeing his drivel posted to this list...it would be nice if he weren't so rabid and, well, dumb. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 01:24:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA08277 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:24:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08268 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA07753; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:24:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Marc Slemko cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:59:53 MDT." Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:24:22 -0700 Message-ID: <7749.877335862@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > However, that would require that the page matter and the fact is it > doesn't. It is stupid; nothing more, nothing less. Well said. This whole sorry thing should have never been dragged into -chat in the first place and, if anything has been shown here at all, it's that Greg has very poor tactical judgement about raising issues which are only further glorified by the process. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 02:00:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA10318 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:00:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA10249 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:59:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA14635; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:29:42 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971020182942.31559@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:29:42 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Undesirable links to www.FreeBSD.org (was: Cool Page! Your page rules. Too cool. Great design) References: <7749.877335862@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <7749.877335862@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Oct 20, 1997 at 01:24:22AM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 20, 1997 at 01:24:22AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> However, that would require that the page matter and the fact is it >> doesn't. It is stupid; nothing more, nothing less. > > Well said. This whole sorry thing should have never been dragged into > -chat in the first place and, if anything has been shown here at all, > it's that Greg has very poor tactical judgement about raising issues > which are only further glorified by the process. :) Gee, thanks. It's easy for you to say that with hindsight (unless you know this particular thing from previous encounters). On the face of it, it looked like another wannabee trying to glorify FreeBSD with inappropriate tactics. Still, sorry, you don't get the prize for today's most insulting mail message :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 05:09:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA18026 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 05:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dumbwinter.logic.it (mod1.logic.it [195.120.151.17] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA18016 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 05:09:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: (qmail 1064 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Oct 1997 12:01:08 -0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:01:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: <199710192255.RAA11285@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > Not sure if linux has a network install package however I > > couldn't find it. > > Have you uncovered a *LINUX* limitation or a *Slackware* > limitation? Since when did the Linux kernel dictate installation > technique? > > When itemizing the great things about FreeBSD and the shortcomings > of Linux and its many distributions, we need to keep the facts > strictly honest else we demonstrate we don't really know what > we're saying about Linux. I agree with David. Also, I *really* cannot understand this sort of FreeBSD vs Linux war. It's completely silly and counterproductive, as someone else pointed out in this thread. For example, I started with Linux, in particular with Slackware, and rolled my own kernels. Then, being disappointed with the differences in the many distributions, I tried FreeBSD. Let me say it: I felt guilty just at the idea of evaluating FreeBSD, because Linux served me very well. Being used to the Slackware installation procedure, I felt uneasy with FreeBSD, not to mention the different kernel configuration, the BSD init vs the sysV init, BSD make vs gmake, etc. Then I slowly started to understand the FreeBSD philosophy, and now I can proudly say I'm a FreeBSD addict :-) *But* I have nothing to blame on Linux. I tried both worlds, and *I* choosed FreeBSD, as an other person could have choosen Linux. I do love FreeBSD, and I do admire Linux, because they are *both* Unix (no purist flames here) and they are both free. Lets work together to improve Unix and to fight the evil empire. Cheers Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. "Whuffo you jump out of them airplanes?" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 08:43:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29757 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:43:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29752 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@kalypso.cybercom.net) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06572; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:42:22 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: Amancio cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: <199710191853.LAA01282@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Amancio wrote: : it sort of reminded me of 386bsd. After I install the system, I went on : to build a kernel -- interesting approach to config the kernel : : make config which asks you a bunch of questions --- all of the sudden : the Freebsd config file seem like a 21 first century super duper : kernel configuation database 8) : : [snip, snip] : : Slackware left me with the impression that it was too slanted to : hackers and for the life of me I can't figure out why people : prefer linux to Freebsd -- it seems that Freebsd will be easier : on newbies. I don't know. As a amateur, I rather like being asked a series of simple questions and then having the kernel built. I could probably do less damage that way than I could by editing a text file. K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 09:12:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02047 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from engine7.dnet.net.id (engine7.dnet.net.id [202.148.3.190]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02042 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:12:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from golfs@dnet.net.id) Received: from compaq-presario ([202.148.0.150]) by engine7.dnet.net.id (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13255) with SMTP id AAA18368 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:16:08 +0700 Message-ID: <344B822E.66B@dnet.net.id> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:09:18 +0700 From: ADITYA TIRTOSUDIRO Reply-To: golfs@dnet.net.id Organization: Private X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: unsubsribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk unsubscribe From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 15:58:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26418 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:58:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26324 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA10510; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:54:27 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA15188; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:51:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971021005107.XS58141@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:51:07 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: support@mailbox.intel.com (Steve), filo@yahoo.com Subject: Re: BIOS Bootstrap incompatability; AL440LX at A4LL0X0.86A.0013.P03 References: <199710200143.SAA25579@mailbox.intel.com> <199710200157.LAA00509@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199710200157.LAA00509@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Oct 20, 1997 11:27:06 +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Mike Smith wrote: > As this represents an official communication from Intel, rather than a > private communication, I am copying my reply (containing the entire > text of your response) to a number of interested parties, who may find > your attitude enlightening. Indeed, i found it enlightening. :-/ > > >Section D.1 of the BBS 1.01 advises that the bootstrap should consult > > >the value in the DL register in order to determine the BIOS unit > > >number of the boot device. > > Further details will not be necessary as FreeBDS is not one of the > > tested operating system and is not supported. An interesting attitude, really. > > It is in a similar catagory as Linix, there is a cost of media form of > > this OS. Past experience with any of these operating systems is that > > they do not support Plug and Play and have limited ability to support > > all of the features of PCI cards. The user must choose OS supported > > devices carefully, and must extend considerable effort in configuring > > systems. > > I am not entirely sure what your point is here. Well, i am rather sure what he was going to tell us: ``The user must choose OS supported devices carefully,...''. Together with Intel violating the (self-produced) specs, this can only translate into ``Avoid buying Intel products.'' This statement, heard from an Intel official, is indeed, well, interesting. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 16:15:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27710 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au (babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au [130.194.166.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27692 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:15:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from graeme@babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au) Received: from localhost (graeme@localhost) by babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13061 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:14:41 +1000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:14:40 +1000 (EST) From: Graeme Cross Reply-To: Graeme.Cross@sci.monash.edu.au To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Attribution: gjc X-No-Archive: yes X-No-Junk-Mail: Do not send me junk mail under any circumstances X-PGP-Key-ID: 702DB549 X-URI: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Amancio wrote: > > : it sort of reminded me of 386bsd. After I install the system, I went on > : to build a kernel -- interesting approach to config the kernel : > : make config which asks you a bunch of questions --- all of the sudden > : the Freebsd config file seem like a 21 first century super duper > : kernel configuation database 8) Linux kernel configuration the elegant way: make menuconfig make xconfig Complete with on-line explanations for every kernel compilation option. You can save multiple kernel configurations as well. This has been supported since the 1.2 kernels (IIRC). > : Slackware left me with the impression that it was too slanted to > : hackers and for the life of me I can't figure out why people > : prefer linux to Freebsd -- it seems that Freebsd will be easier > : on newbies. Linux/*BSD wars do not seem do to much to promote free software. If you really need to do a comparison, you have a choice of a handful of distributions: Redhat, Debian, Slackware, Caldera and SuSe. All of these, bar one, is a very professional distribution that is well maintained, has excellent mailing list support and is very elegant and simple to install. Which one is the exception? Slackware (IMHO). It has a very small user base these days, and is really beginning to show it's age. Which one seems to have been the basis of FreeBSD/Linux comparisons in these recent threads? Slackware. If you really feel the need to compare & contrast Linux and FreeBSD, comparing against Redhat or Debian would be a more useful comparison. My two cents worth, as a both a FreeBSD and Linux user. Cheers Graeme - -- Graeme Cross Water Studies Centre, Monash University http://www.wsc.monash.edu.au/~graeme/ Random thought #87 Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: Auto-signed by PPG (v1.01) (the PGP/PINE gateway) iQB1AwUBNEvlxmAiycRwLbVJAQEaAAMAvuGJka8B2y7yzEvSr8hIRRdFh19xz+LE iJ48BhqkW4QKhcieWpPUKVgLXfjZC8a4IlPHm9jeNxTKuFyMMpnqoUoeEb7v2L26 nbboihpggg2hfokY6X+zt/NQZwrbNKuW =/Xqi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 17:23:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01978 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01973 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:23:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA00261; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:23:25 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199710210023.TAA00261@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: from Graeme Cross at "Oct 21, 97 09:14:40 am" To: Graeme.Cross@sci.monash.edu.au Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:23:25 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Graeme Cross said: > > My two cents worth, as a both a FreeBSD and Linux user. > If more people acted more as you describe that you do, I think that there would be significantly less flamage. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 19:08:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09379 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09374 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16096; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710210207.TAA16096@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Graeme.Cross@sci.monash.edu.au cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:14:40 +1000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:07:41 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Linux/*BSD wars do not seem do to much to promote free software. > If you really need to do a comparison, you have a choice of a handful of > distributions: Redhat, Debian, Slackware, Caldera and SuSe. I am not doing a comparison . I install linux for the same reason that I have installed Win98 (perhaps Win99 8) and Win Nt 5.0 to check out a couple of things mostly related to multimedia . As for getting along with linux developers I have in the past . As for slackware vs. debian vs. whatever is not that important to me. Tnks for the tips on slakware. Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 20:00:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12112 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:00:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12107 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:00:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcarmich@Venus.mcs.net) Received: from Venus.mcs.net (dcarmich@Venus.mcs.net [192.160.127.92]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id WAA23727 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:00:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from dcarmich@localhost) by Venus.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id WAA11923 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:00:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Douglas Carmichael Message-Id: <199710210300.WAA11923@Venus.mcs.net> Subject: Free FreeBSD CD-ROM donations to environmental/non-profit groups? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:00:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was looking at the WWW site of an organization called the Environmental Support Center (http://www.envsc.org) and one of their functions is to donate Lotus software and computer equipment (Windoze :-( to non-profit environmental groups. What do you think of a program to donate FreeBSD CD-ROMs (because a lot of small grassroots organizations have no Internet access) to non-profit groups working on environmental or animal rights issues? Benefits: * Promotes FreeBSD * Gives the groups an advanced, open OS base for their own networking and computing needs without the extra cost of source licenses, etc. * Strengthens the goodwill of Walnut Creek (and FreeBSD Inc.) in the computing community and the activism community at large. Any thoughts on this? From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 21:25:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17181 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (ken@mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17176 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:25:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@plutotech.com) Received: (from ken@localhost) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16428; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:25:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Kenneth Merry Message-Id: <199710210425.WAA16428@pluto.plutotech.com> Subject: Re: Free FreeBSD CD-ROM donations to environmental/non-profit groups? In-Reply-To: <199710210300.WAA11923@Venus.mcs.net> from Douglas Carmichael at "Oct 20, 97 10:00:54 pm" To: dcarmich@mcs.net (Douglas Carmichael) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:25:30 -0600 (MDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28s (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Douglas Carmichael wrote... > I was looking at the WWW site of an organization called the > Environmental Support Center (http://www.envsc.org) and one of their > functions is to donate Lotus software and computer equipment (Windoze :-( > to non-profit environmental groups. > > What do you think of a program to donate FreeBSD CD-ROMs (because a lot > of small grassroots organizations have no Internet access) to non-profit > groups working on environmental or animal rights issues? > > Benefits: > * Promotes FreeBSD > * Gives the groups an advanced, open OS base for their own > networking and computing needs without the extra cost of source licenses, > etc. > * Strengthens the goodwill of Walnut Creek (and FreeBSD Inc.) in the > computing community and the activism community at large. > > Any thoughts on this? I think the FreeBSD project should avoid political involvement of any kind. I think that we would lose more than we would gain by supporting one political point of view over another. If the issue were supporting some computing-related political issue, it is (remotely) possible that FreeBSD might benefit from it. (it would have to be thoroughly discussed and widely agreed to, IMO, though) In this case, though, I don't think it's a good idea. [ just my $.02 ] Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@plutotech.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 23:21:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22345 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22325 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:21:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA13853 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:21:44 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id HAA16944; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:53:22 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971021075322.GK58851@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:53:22 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Urge to apply the vn device hack even to 2.2.5 References: <19971021003621.XE33370@uriah.heep.sax.de> <15920.877390482@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <15920.877390482@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Oct 20, 1997 16:34:42 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > ... (and current.freebsd.org is another 128MB box - > maybe we should make our release-a-day server a 486SX with 8MB of > memory and switch it to being a release-a-week server instead. > We'd not have as useful a service by far, but it sure would catch > those load sensitive bugs early. :-) I was already contemplating to donate my 5 MB 386/16 notebook to John Dyson for development work on low-memory machines. :-)) Background: Bruce yesterday wrote me that the zone memory allocator allocates 256 KB of static memory. This is pretty (too) much on a 5 MB machine. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 20 23:47:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23800 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:47:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23795 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:47:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: from gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.8.7/RBI-Z13) with ESMTP id IAA02083; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:47:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA04464; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:56:43 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <19971021085642.49975@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:56:42 +0200 From: Christoph Kukulies To: Wolfgang Helbig Cc: Mike Smith , kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, grog@lemis.com, freebsd-chat@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: bad system call - world build References: <199710201433.AAA01025@word.smith.net.au> <199710202228.AAA27784@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [redirected to chat] In-Reply-To: <199710202228.AAA27784@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de>; from Wolfgang Helbig on Tue, Oct 21, 1997 at 12:28:40AM +0200 On Tue, Oct 21, 1997 at 12:28:40AM +0200, Wolfgang Helbig wrote: > > > > > ===> share/termcap > > > > > ex - /a/src/share/termcap/termcap.src < /a/src/share/termcap/reorder > /dev/null > > > > > Bad system call - core dumped > > ... > > > > This is almost a FAQ. Build a new kernel first, boot with it, then > > > > you should be able to continue. > > > > > > Not quite, Greg. Normally I know what to do when proc.h has been changed > > > (ps/w etc. weirdnesses) but in this case I'm not sure whether > > > building a new kernel (3.0-current) and booting it on top of a > > > set of (up to then) 2.2.2-binaries would be a could remedy here. > > > > Funnily enough, Greg is quite right. I almost feel that I'm insulting > > him by backing him up, but Chris, this *is* a FAQ, and if you were > > reading the -current list like you're supposed to, you would know all > > about this. > > > > You do need a newer kernel to get past this. The issue *was*announced* > > when the change was made. There was some attempt made to put in place > > code to deal with the new system call, but it appears to have been > > unsuccessful and at any rate is only needed for the bootstrapping case. > > Going from 2.x to 3.x is going to get harder, not easier. > > > > > I will more likely follow the advice of your forespeaker, namely > > > excluding the termcap subdir from the worldbuild. > > > > This is stupid, and fails to address the problem. > > Hmm. As far as I recall, we had some interface change of > mount(8) in -current about half year ago which made it > impossible to successfully mount with a new kernel and old userland > environmemt. Exactly this I meant. I ran into this trap several times. Not because I made the same mistake twice but someone deleted /kernel and /kernel.old was unusable due to the mount problem. Only fixit floppy helped at that time. Actually I didn't want to contribute to this thread anymore because it's just hot air. > > So even if this is a FAQ the answer depends... Most of the time Greg said 'almost a FAQ' and I would leave it at that. I don't know what the critical mass is to make an issue a FAQ but believe me, I sifted through my saved freebsd-current mail archive for 'system call' before asking ans didn't find nothing relevant. > building userland first gives you less trouble than building > the kernel first. Just think about outdated config(8) which is > still part of userland. > > I don't think my suggestion is that stupid. > > Wolfgang -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 21 02:07:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA01908 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:07:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA01898 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:07:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00631; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:33:42 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710210903.SAA00631@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) cc: "Andrew Atrens" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pulling email addresses from freebsd lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:36:27 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:33:42 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (This topic is Not Appropriate for -hackers.) > I disagree, I believe that (mail) protocols which require authentication > and tracability of the sender would cut spam dramatically, This is absurdly naive. > If, when you received spam, you > could determine the senders email, name, and phone number the amount of > complaints to spammers and their ISP's would rise massively. It would > also provide the technological infrastructure that governments need to > enforce anti-spam legislation. Alright! Big Brother, here we come. You DO NOT want what you are proposing, believe me. > If the spammers knew their identity was available, and knew they would > get caught and prosecuted, then they wouldn't do it. They would move offshore. So what? You've sacrificed your ability to participate in legitimate anonymous communications, and done nothing about the spam issue. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 21 04:41:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA08601 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:41:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA08596 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:41:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-199.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.199]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA01962; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:41:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA16124; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:41:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710211141.GAA16124@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Douglas Carmichael cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Free FreeBSD CD-ROM donations to environmental/non-profit groups? In-reply-to: Message from Douglas Carmichael of "Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:00:54 CDT." <199710210300.WAA11923@Venus.mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:41:08 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I was looking at the WWW site of an organization called the > Environmental Support Center (http://www.envsc.org) and one of their > functions is to donate Lotus software and computer equipment (Windoze :-( > to non-profit environmental groups. > > What do you think of a program to donate FreeBSD CD-ROMs (because a lot > of small grassroots organizations have no Internet access) to non-profit > groups working on environmental or animal rights issues? Think the best way to handle that is for someone who personally supports such a group to take their FreeBSD CD's over to the group, install it, and show them how to use it. However, liberally spreading CDROMs around CS departments at Universities is another thing entirely. Lacking a CDROM? Then a laptop or luggable with 800M or so works well. Especially if it has ethernet. I have a 386SX16 with 4.5M of memory, a slow poke 8 bit ethernet board, all in a briefcase size box, that I use for exactly that purpose. NFS installs run 80k/sec. The system is still running 2.1.0 because that's what I had when the HD was in a system with enough RAM to install. Plenty good for this purpose. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 21 06:25:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA12329 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA12298 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:24:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA14584; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:24:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id IAA08728; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:23:53 -0500 Message-ID: <19971021082352.19021@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:23:52 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Urge to apply the vn device hack even to 2.2.5 References: <19971021003621.XE33370@uriah.heep.sax.de> <15920.877390482@time.cdrom.com> <19971021075322.GK58851@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <19971021075322.GK58851@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Oct 10, 1997 at 07:53:22AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 10, 1997 at 07:53:22AM +0200, J Wunsch wrote: > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > ... (and current.freebsd.org is another 128MB box - > > maybe we should make our release-a-day server a 486SX with 8MB of > > memory and switch it to being a release-a-week server instead. > > We'd not have as useful a service by far, but it sure would catch > > those load sensitive bugs early. :-) > > I was already contemplating to donate my 5 MB 386/16 notebook to John > Dyson for development work on low-memory machines. :-)) > > Background: Bruce yesterday wrote me that the zone memory allocator > allocates 256 KB of static memory. This is pretty (too) much on a 5 > MB machine. Hey, I still have a 4MB 386/20 running 2.2-960612-SNAP in production as a firewall machine. It works just fine, except for those pesky "sleep(5) after select" messages from telnet when it gets swapped out. Don't forget the little machines that do a lot of the dirty work. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 21 08:08:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17749 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17740 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:08:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA02003; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:07:51 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199710211507.KAA02003@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Urge to apply the vn device hack even to 2.2.5 In-Reply-To: <19971021075322.GK58851@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Oct 21, 97 07:53:22 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:07:51 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch said: > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > ... (and current.freebsd.org is another 128MB box - > > maybe we should make our release-a-day server a 486SX with 8MB of > > memory and switch it to being a release-a-week server instead. > > We'd not have as useful a service by far, but it sure would catch > > those load sensitive bugs early. :-) > > I was already contemplating to donate my 5 MB 386/16 notebook to John > Dyson for development work on low-memory machines. :-)) > > Background: Bruce yesterday wrote me that the zone memory allocator > allocates 256 KB of static memory. This is pretty (too) much on a 5 > MB machine. > That should be easily re-tuned. In fact, I was planning on it for other reasons. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 21 08:21:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18381 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18370 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA02024; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:20:45 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199710211520.KAA02024@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Free FreeBSD CD-ROM donations to environmental/non-profit groups? In-Reply-To: <199710210425.WAA16428@pluto.plutotech.com> from Kenneth Merry at "Oct 20, 97 10:25:30 pm" To: ken@plutotech.com (Kenneth Merry) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:20:45 -0500 (EST) Cc: dcarmich@mcs.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kenneth Merry said: > > I think the FreeBSD project should avoid political involvement of > any kind. I think that we would lose more than we would gain by supporting > one political point of view over another. > I definitely agree. FreeBSD is currently made up of a very diverse group of individuals with different social, economic, and political views. Generally, we all work well together, and lets avoid anything that would cause factionalization. Because of moral and ethical convictions, I am sure that large groups of people would have to -quit- given certain causes being backed by the organization. I agree that this is best being left lone. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 21 14:36:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11419 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:36:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11402 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:36:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28092 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:36:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ICQJava Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In case anyone is curious, 0.91 of the Java version of ICQ is available, and works for me *MUCH* better than the 0.90 version. The chat functionality still isn't enabled, but it required none of the voodoo that 0.90 required, and doesn't crash just sending messages back and forth. Sure, you can crash it trying to set any status other than "Online" or disconnected, but it is getting better. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 21 15:55:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15687 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:55:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15673; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:55:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.7/(97/09/12 5.7)) id SAA22919; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:55:38 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts001d24.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.36]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.7) id SAA01657; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <344D4FC3.10B@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:58:43 -0800 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net Organization: Resumes By Duke X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG CC: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Saving Boot Manager--general info--correction to Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "setup \ir" from the CD Rom Drive in DOS reinstalled win95 and saved my FreeBSD Boot Manager. Duke From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 21 20:09:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29854 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29844 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:09:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00845; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:36:27 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710220306.MAA00845@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@freebsd.org cc: filo@yahoo.com Subject: Re: BIOS Bootstrap incompatability; AL440LX at A4LL0X0.86A.0013.P03 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:36:27 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, it looks like Steve has had his coffee this morning. I'll keep people informed. mike ------- Forwarded Message Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:02:55 -0700 To: mike@smith.net.au From: Steve > support. > >I would ask you to look again at the return address and affiliation on >my original posting. I *represent* the operating system vendor. If >there is a more appropriate channel through which technical issues may >reach competent attention, I would appreciate a reference in order to >resolve this issue. > >> Steve >> Intel Internet Technical Support > > Regards, >Mike Smith > > Point well taken. I have an obligation to at least let the BIOS engineers see what can be done to correct these issues. I will contact you shortly after your case is escalated through the proper channels. Once again I apologize for being rude. Steve Intel Internet Technical Support ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 21 21:55:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05216 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05206 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:55:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id PAA20272; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:06:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma020267; Wed, 22 Oct 97 15:05:59 +1000 Received: from localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au (localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27532; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:54:19 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199710220454.OAA27532@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au: localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jonathan Lemon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Urge to apply the vn device hack even to 2.2.5 References: <19971021003621.XE33370@uriah.heep.sax.de> <15920.877390482@time.cdrom.com> <19971021075322.GK58851@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19971021082352.19021@right.PCS> In-Reply-To: <19971021082352.19021@right.PCS> from Jonathan Lemon at "Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:23:52 +0000" Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:54:18 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 21st October 1997, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Hey, I still have a 4MB 386/20 running 2.2-960612-SNAP in production >as a firewall machine. It works just fine, except for those pesky >"sleep(5) after select" messages from telnet when it gets swapped out. That's probably the copyout() page table problem that was fixed in 2.2-stable on 1997/01/25 in revision 1.41.2.6 of sys/i386/i386/support.s. Time for an upgrade! >Don't forget the little machines that do a lot of the dirty work. Yeah. Little FreeBSD boxes are all over the place here doing this and that to support the major boxes. On the other hand, 386 boxes are old enough to toss in the bin. The unloved discards that we resuscitate are all 486DX33 and above now. We even threw some of them away because we ran out of room for them. The remaining ones just work a bit harder. :-) Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 10:11:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12357 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12352 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:11:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id NAA03175 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:10:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:09:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: OS for the People Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You might want to check out http://www.wcmh.com/lantimes/97/97oct/710b061a.html They talk about Linux and BSDi Unix, no mention of FreeBSD. Someone should drop them a line. Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 10:56:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15166 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:56:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rush.aero.org (rush.aero.org [130.221.192.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15161 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:56:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@anpiel.aero.org) Received: from anpiel.csd (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by rush.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA10914 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org by anpiel.csd (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA00726; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:55:24 -0700 Message-Id: <199710221755.KAA00726@anpiel.csd> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Do we have any wireless support? Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:55:24 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm putting this on -chat because it isn't, strictly speaking, about FreeBSD (yet - it may be in the future). We're interested in getting a project going that requires wireless data communications, and wireless Ethernet might do the trick. But, we have to roll our own for a lot of this stuff, and manufacturers in the Ethernet interface arena are infamous for not releasing enough information to let you write your own drivers. So, the question is: does FreeBSD support any wireless Ethernet interfaces? And if so, where did the information needed to write a FreeBSD driver come from? Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 12:30:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20789 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20784 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:30:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02613; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:30:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11138; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:30:19 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:30:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710221930.NAA11138@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Mike O'Brien" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Do we have any wireless support? In-Reply-To: <199710221755.KAA00726@anpiel.csd> References: <199710221755.KAA00726@anpiel.csd> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So, the question is: does FreeBSD support any wireless Ethernet > interfaces? Yes, the AT&T/NCR/Lucent WaveLAN stuff is supported, and works quite well I might add. > And if so, where did the information needed to write a > FreeBSD driver come from? I suspect the manufacturer gave out the information, but the folks who wrote the drivers would know more. Since there were a couple of different implementations, it seems that it must have not been that hard to get the info., but that's just speculation. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 16:32:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA09382 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:32:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from server1.nt.net (server1.nt.net [206.116.1.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09371 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:32:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from galdad@nt.net) Received: from old-bean (New-Liskeard-113.nt.net [206.116.1.113]) by server1.nt.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA05466 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710222326.TAA05466@server1.nt.net> From: "Dave Galda" To: Subject: Try it, it works! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:31:55 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: SMTP%"Cybermail7" 2-OCT-1997 06:03:38.95 To: GALDADS CC: Subj: THIS ONE'S HOT! From: dwyzid@ibm.net To: galdads@kirk.northernc.on.ca Subject: THIS ONE'S HOT! Subj: $1.00 Letter! Date: 97-08-31 16:23:47 EDT From: Cybermail7 To: CAP862 CC: Mailserve This is a one time mailing. You will receive no further mail! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MAY BE THE MOST SIGNIFICANT EMAIL YOU RECEIVE THIS YEAR! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ***Please, Follow The Instructions Of This Letter Very Carefully. Immediately Make A Copy, And Read Twice.*** THIS IS A SERVICE AND IS 100% LEGAL ! (Refer to title 18, Section 1302 & 1342 of the U.S. Postal and Lottery Laws) Greetings, Hopefully my name is still on the list below. I am a retired attorney, and about two years ago a man came to me with a letter. The letter he brought me is basically the same as the letter in front of you now. He asked me to verify the fact that this letter was legal. I told him that I would review it and get back to him. When I first read the letter I thought it was some off-the-wall idea to make money. A week later I met again with my client to discuss the issue. I told him that the letter originally brought to me was not 100% legal. My client asked me to alter the letter to make it 100% legal. I advised him to make a small change in the letter and it would be alright. I was curious about the letter, so he told me how it works. I thought it was a long shot, so I decided against participating. Before my client left, I asked him to keep me updated as to his results. About two months later he called to tell me that he had received over $800,000 in cash! I didn't believe him so he asked me to try the plan and see for myself. I thought about it for a couple of days and decided that there was not much to lose. I followed the instructions exactly and mailed out 200 letters. Sure enough, the money started coming! It came slowly at first, but after three weeks I was getting more than I could open in a day. After about three months the money stopped coming. I kept a precise record of my earnings and at the end it totaled $868,439.00. I was earning a good living as a lawyer, but as anyone in the legal profession will tell you, there is a lot of stress that comes with the job. I told myself if things worked out I would retire from practice and play golf. I decided to try the letter again, but this time I sent 500 letters out. Well, three months later I had totaled $2,344,178.00!!! I just couldn't believe it. I met my old client for lunch to find out how this exactly works. He told me that there were a few similar letters going around. What made this one different is the fact that there are six names on the letter, not five like most others. That fact alone resulted in far more returns. The other factor was the advice I gave him in making sure the whole thing was perfectly legal, since no one wants to risk doing anything illegal. I bet by now you are curious about what little change I told him to make. Well, if you send a letter like this out, to be legal, you must sell something if you expect to receive a dollar. I told him that anyone sending a dollar out must receive something in return. So when you send a dollar to each of the six names on the list, you must include a slip of paper saying, "Please put me on your mailing list" and include your name, mailing address, and email address. (Your phone # is optional). This is the key to the program! The item you will receive for a dollar you send to the six names below, is this letter and the right to earn thousands. We will be working together to improve each others lives! Honesty and Integrity will fuel your success with this program. Please be Honest! Follow the simple instructions below exactly, and in less than three months you will receive over $800,000.00 GUARANTEED!!!!!! A) Immediately send $1.00 to each of the six people on the list below. Wrap the dollar in a note (type written or handwritten) saying "Please add me to your mailing list" and include your name, mailing address, and email address. Your phone number is optional: 1) Mary Young 238 College Wooster, OH 44691 2) Williams Enterprises 1950 Roswell Rd. Apt. 7-C-4 Marietta, GA 30068 3) Cyndi Appleton 23077 Greenfield Rd. Ste. 487 Southfield, MI 48075 4) David Klien 24321 Sunnypointe Southfield, MI 48034 5) Sue Smoltz 2914 N. Delaware Indianapolis, IN 46205 6) Dave Galda 255 Rorke Ave, Haileybury Ontario, P0J 1K0 - Box 1258 B) Remove the name next to #1 from the list above and move the rest of the names up one position. Then place your name in the #6 spot. This is best done by typing a new list and taping or gluing it over the old one. Or by saving this to a text file and editing it yourself and saving the new edited copy. C) When you have completed the above instructions, you have an option of mailing your new letter out in two ways: 1) Through the U.S. Postal Service or 2) through e-mail. This letter has been proven perfectly legal for both ways as long as you follow the above instructions, because you're purchasing membership in an exclusive mailing list . To mail this out over the internet, you can browse through areas and find people to send this to all the time. All you have to do is cut and paste email addresses wherever you are on the Internet. Remember, it doesn’t cost anything to mail on the Internet. Or you can get a Mass Mail Network to mail it out in large volumes for you. One that we recommend is: Net Promo ($15 / 500 names) ($25 / 2,000 names) ($50 / 7,000 names) 2100 Roswell Rd. Suite 200-C Marietta, GA 30062 770.977.5363 Email address: Mailserve@aol.com Either way will bring big payoffs. If you are going to use the traditional U.S. Postal Service to do this program, you will want to order a minimum 200 names from a mailing list company. Two that have been most effective for these lists are: ***Be sure to ask for "Opportunity Seekers" and request a list less than 30 days old*** CYBERMAIL ($20 / 200 names) ($35 / 600 names) ($50 / 1,500 names) 2100 Roswell Rd. Suite 200-C Marietta, GA 30062 770.977.5363 Email address: Mailserve@aol.com ***Keep in mind- there is no limit to the amount of names you can send out. The more names you send, the more money you’ll make. We strongly encourage you to mail this letter to family, friends and relatives as well.*** D) When your mailing list arrives, handwrite the mailing addresses on a stamped envelope and drop it in the mail box (Be sure to send out at least 200). Within 90 days, you will receive over $800,000. E) For increased exposure, post this letter with your name in the sixth (6) position to classified ads, bulletin boards, newsgroups, web sites, etc. F) Keep a copy of this letter and all the names you receive. Mail it out again in about 6 months. But mail it to the addresses you received with each dollar. It will work again, only much better. Assume for example you get a 7.5% return rate, which is very conservative. My first attempt was about 9.5% and my second time was over 11%. 1) When you mail out 200 letters, 15 people will send you $1.00. 2) Those 15 mail out 200 letters, and 225 people will send you $1.00 3) Those 225 mail out 200 letters, and 3,375 people will send you $1.00 4) Those 3,375 mail out 200 letters, and 50,625 people will send you $1.00 5) Those 50,625 mail out 200 letters, and 759,375 people will send you $1.00 At this point your name drops off the list, but so far you have received $813,615.00! It works every time, but how well depends on how many letters you send out. In the example above, you mailed out 200 letters, if you mailed out 500 letters, you would have received $2,006,917!! Check the math yourself, I want you to, but I guarantee it is correct! With this kind of return, you've got to try it. Try it once and you will do it again!!! Just make sure you send a dollar to each of the six names on the list with a note to be added to their mailing list. Together we will all prosper!!!! PS You've read this far, so let me ask you one simple question: Q. What do you have to loose?? A. Only $ 6.00 What you can gain is an income, like the example in this letter. Small Risk, Small Expense, HUGE Potential Return!!! What do you have to loose? I invite you to join our mailing list today!!! From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 17:49:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14239 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:49:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14232 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.xmission.com) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id SAA10662; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:49:13 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199710230049.SAA10662@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: OS for the People To: paulg@interlog.com (Paul Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:49:12 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Paul Griffith" at Oct 22, 97 01:09:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You might want to check out > http://www.wcmh.com/lantimes/97/97oct/710b061a.html OK, I did. > They talk about Linux and BSDi Unix, no mention of FreeBSD. Someone should > drop them a line. OK, I did. I was even kind enough to mention our cousins at NetBSD and OpenBSD as well. I sent the message with Communicator, so I'll go drag it out of the "sent" folder and forward a copy to chat, just in case EVERYONE ON THE PLANET WANTS TO SECOND-GUESS ME! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 17:53:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14526 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:53:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from plato.dayna.com (PLATO.DAYNA.COM [192.206.100.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14517 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:52:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@dayna.com) Received: from dayna.com (salty.dayna.com) by plato.dayna.com (4.1/25-eef) id AA28635; Wed, 22 Oct 97 18:52:50 MDT Message-Id: <344E9FB0.5C4E37F1@dayna.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:52:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: wes@dayna.com Organization: Dayna Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS for the People Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is the text of the email I sent to the LAN Times editor: > Thank you for this excellent article informing people of the > high-quality alternatives to expensive and crash-prone commercial > operating systems offerings. > > The authors coverage of systems derived from BSD was rather > limited. While an excellent product, BSD/OS from BSDi is > certainly not the only currently available BSD system, and > perhaps not even the most widely distributed. > > FreeBSD is the premier BSD-derived system for the standard > "PC" architecture. It is fast and robuts, has a large number > of applications available in binary installation kit form, > and is available for free via ftp download, or at a small > price on CD-ROM from Walnut Creek CDROM. For details, see: > > http://freebsd.org/ > > The NetBSD development team has focused on platform portability > as their primary goal. NetBSD is currently available on a > number of computing platforms, including the PC, both PowerPC > and M68K based Macintoshes, Sun SPARC systems, and others. > For details, see: > > http://www.netbsd.org/ > > OpenBSD is focused on systematically discovering and fixing > all security holes in the BSD operating system. OpenBSD is > closely related to FreeBSD and NetBSD, but usually follows > somewhat in device driver support, due to the extensive > checking performed on code before being included in the OpenBSD > system. For details, see: > > http://www.openbsd.org/ > > Each of the above systems provides a fast, stable platform for > all computing tasks, from running internet and web services > to desktop productivity applications. They all excell in net- > working and software development facilities, and all use the > XFree86 distrubition of the X Window System to provide network > GUI support. > > I hope you can provide an update to this excellent article to > expose your readership to the wide array of choices available > to them. This, after all, is what UNIX has always meant to > users: choice. Thank you for your time. -- Wes Peters It was a diamond as big as the Ritz Software Engineer What you gonna do with this, tell me Dayna Communications Who's gonna save you When you're a slave to A diamond as big as the Ritz From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 18:06:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15782 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:06:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15772 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:06:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.xmission.com) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id TAA13328; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:05:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199710230105.TAA13328@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? To: skafte@worldgate.com (Greg Skafte) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:05:39 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19971021205331.53826@worldgate.com> from "Greg Skafte" at Oct 21, 97 08:53:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > back in a former life when I worked for a company that had > an HP, I setup extended ACLs all the time, it was very handy > for controlling access to things like web directories. (ie > yes everyone was part of group http, but then with the extended > ACL I could force things to g=rwx, but still control who could > read or write to a specific tree) ACL take a some extra time > and effort but in the long term I found them wonderful... Yes, but how do you back them up, or, worse yet, restore them? How do you copy your HTML directory tree to another drive you're bringing on-line and preserve all the ACL settings? As noted before, *none* of the system tools support the ACLs. If you created, for instance, a version of TAR that backed up the ACL information, it would be incompatible with every other version of tar in the world.* Tools are a part of the reason ACLs aren't a standard part of UNIX. They're not that hard to implement, esepecially not if you do it the way HP did, which simply extends the inode information by a fixed amount. *The one exception was a backup program called DBR, which is no longer sold. On HP-UX and AIX, it could save the ACL information using cpio -c format and maintain compatibility with standard cpio by using cute tricks in the cpio format. It would use a 1024 byte buffer for the filename, and then place the null-terminated filename in the buffer, followed by the ACL information. Cpio would happily extract the full 1024 bytes of filename info and then open the null-terminated filename, ignoring the ACL data. In order to restore the ACL information, you had to restore with DBR, but *any* cpio could get the file data off the tape. Cute, eh? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 18:25:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17351 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gras-varg.worldgate.com (skafte@gras-varg.worldgate.com [198.161.84.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17339 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:25:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from skafte@worldgate.com) Received: (from skafte@localhost) by gras-varg.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA15865; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:25:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19971022192504.30720@worldgate.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:25:04 -0600 From: Greg Skafte To: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? References: <19971021205331.53826@worldgate.com> <199710230105.TAA13328@xmission.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199710230105.TAA13328@xmission.xmission.com>; from Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC on Wed, Oct 22, 1997 at 07:05:39PM -0600 Organization: WorldGate Inc. X-PGP-Fingerprint: 42 9C 2C A8 4D 2B C9 C4 7D B6 00 B0 50 47 20 97 X-URL: http://gras-varg.worldgate.com/~skafte Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC (softweyr@xmission.com) On Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? Date: Wed, Oct 22, 1997 at 07:05:39PM -0600 > > back in a former life when I worked for a company that had > > an HP, I setup extended ACLs all the time, it was very handy > > for controlling access to things like web directories. (ie > > yes everyone was part of group http, but then with the extended > > ACL I could force things to g=rwx, but still control who could > > read or write to a specific tree) ACL take a some extra time > > and effort but in the long term I found them wonderful... > > Yes, but how do you back them up, or, worse yet, restore them? How do > you copy your HTML directory tree to another drive you're bringing > on-line and preserve all the ACL settings? As noted before, *none* > of the system tools support the ACLs. If you created, for instance, > a version of TAR that backed up the ACL information, it would be > incompatible with every other version of tar in the world.* actually to back up and restore you need to use the HP equivalent of dump/restore (fbackup/frecover ) which was extended to support ACL's ... the HP version of tar had some ACL support but not as good as fbackup frecover. the HP cp/mv were acl extended and would preseve the acls on a given file/directory. > > Tools are a part of the reason ACLs aren't a standard part of UNIX. > They're not that hard to implement, esepecially not if you do it > the way HP did, which simply extends the inode information by a > fixed amount. yup .... and HP provided a library interface for all the acl routines that made hacking acl support into things very easy > > *The one exception was a backup program called DBR, which is no longer > sold. On HP-UX and AIX, it could save the ACL information using > cpio -c format and maintain compatibility with standard cpio by using > cute tricks in the cpio format. It would use a 1024 byte buffer for > the filename, and then place the null-terminated filename in the > buffer, followed by the ACL information. Cpio would happily extract > the full 1024 bytes of filename info and then open the null-terminated > filename, ignoring the ACL data. In order to restore the ACL information, > you had to restore with DBR, but *any* cpio could get the file data > off the tape. Cute, eh? > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com -- Email: skafte@worldgate.com Voice: +403 413 1910 Fax: +403 421 4929 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 18:51:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18903 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:51:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18894 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:51:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA18524; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:20:54 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971023112054.37902@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:20:54 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: wes@dayna.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS for the People References: <344E9FB0.5C4E37F1@dayna.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <344E9FB0.5C4E37F1@dayna.com>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Oct 22, 1997 at 06:52:00PM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 22, 1997 at 06:52:00PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > This is the text of the email I sent to the LAN Times editor: > >> Thank you for this excellent article informing people of the >> (etc) Good stuff. You might have told them what BSD stands for. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 19:45:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22262 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:45:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22256 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:45:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02086 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710230245.TAA02086@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:05:39 MDT." <199710230105.TAA13328@xmission.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:44:51 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My current employer is looking for experienced system level programmers for a B1 unix system. We are mostly focused on the networking , kernel, and file system aspects of the security implementation methods. If you are interested just drop me a note along with your resume. Thank you, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 22 23:40:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03239 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:40:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03233 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:40:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00388; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:07:04 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710230637.QAA00388@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: wes@dayna.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS for the People In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:20:54 +0930." <19971023112054.37902@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:07:04 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, Oct 22, 1997 at 06:52:00PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > This is the text of the email I sent to the LAN Times editor: > > > >> Thank you for this excellent article informing people of the > >> (etc) > > Good stuff. You might have told them what BSD stands for. That's OK. I did that. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 00:20:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA05403 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA05392 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:20:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00585; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:46:27 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710230716.QAA00585@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Mike O'Brien" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Do we have any wireless support? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:55:24 MST." <199710221755.KAA00726@anpiel.csd> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:46:26 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So, the question is: does FreeBSD support any wireless Ethernet > interfaces? And if so, where did the information needed to write a > FreeBSD driver come from? As Nate said, Wavelans are the go. In -current there's the 'wl' driver for the ISA cards (in heavy production), and the PAO guys have the 'wlp' driver for the PCCARD Wavelans. They're a bit pricey, but basically "just work". Jim Binkley (ex. Portland State) was getting about 12 miles out of the 915MHz units using appropriate antennae. You can mail to 'wavelan@smith.net.au' to talk to the FreeBSD Wavelan people; they may be able to help you with more specific questions should you have any. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 00:35:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA06371 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:35:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA06361 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:35:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA05712; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:05:00 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971023170500.54407@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:05:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Kristian Soerensen Subject: Re: Operating System comparison chart, FreeBSD-Linux References: <19971014164629.55488@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Kristian Soerensen on Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 12:00:13PM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry for the really slow reply--I've been pretty busy lately. On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 12:00:13PM +0200, Kristian Soerensen wrote: > On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Hi! I'm just finishing a book about FreeBSD, and one of the topics I >> need to address is the difference between FreeBSD and Linux. Since >> you've done the same thing, maybe we can help each other. > > I will be happy to help, and I will certainly appreciate some help with > FreeBSD. I haven't used FreeBSD as you might have guessed. Thanks. I'll be pleased to help. > I actually prefer's Silicon Graphics with IRIX. >> First, your comparison. Here are some things that I think might need >> correction: >> >> 1. Periperals (note spelling :-) > I know. > Please bear with me - english is just something I learned in school ;-) Sorry, I wasn't trying to pick holes. Native English speakers can make typos, too, and since you spelt it correctly further down, I was sure it was a typo. > I've been working on a new version of the OS comparison, and > lot of what you and other FreeBSD people have mentioned is fixed in the > new version. > It will be released soon, but you can see a preview on our internal > test-site http://www.falconweb.com/~linuxhq/ > >> Linux: >> >> Drivers for most interesting peripherals in almost all areas of >> UNIX-computing. > >> It's very difficult to quantify this, and as you'll see in my draft >> below, I echo the same suggestion that there are more drivers >> available for FreeBSD than for Linux. Others in the FreeBSD camp >> contest this. Certainly there's more than just basic stuff in the >> list of FreeBSD peripherals, but we have the problem that we know of >> no single peripheral that Linux supports and FreeBSD doesn't. Can you >> help here? Tell me some peripherals which Linux supports and which >> you think FreeBSD doesn't, and I'll check. > > I have rewritten that entry in the new version, but it still holds true. > > Some peripherals both basic stuff and fancy stuff, some of it might have > FreeBSD support, I haven't checked that hard. > > Buslogic BT-958 The currently best UW SCSI host-adapter for the PC. > The drivers were made by Buslogic and a Linux hacker, > and released BEFORE the card itself ! It's nice to know they gave you access during development. Very positive for BusLogic. I'm pretty sure we have support for them. Our people don't agree that it's the best, though. > DPT RAID controllers No, we have them. > ISDN cards I haven't compared but ther's sure a lot of ISDN cards > for Linux > ftp://ftp.pop.de/pub2/linux/isdn4linux/FAQ/eng-i4l-faq.html > http://www.spellcast.com Yup, and for FreeBSD. I started using the Teles.S0 18 months ago. Linux was there first, I know, but we have it too. > IDE and floppy tape-drives > Most not completely obscure drives are supported. Correct. Our developers think that they are too tacky to touch. I disagree, though I can't imagine why I should entrust my data to something so unreliable. > FrameRelay and leased lines such as E1 E2 T1 Not sure about this one. > I saw some drivers for an AGFA imagesetter. Nor this. Can you mention a model number? > Livingston makes RADIUS software for Linux for managing network equipment. > Many ISP's are using Livingston equipment and Linux PC's exclusively, > eg. image.dk the ISP I'm using. Yes, they're supported by FreeBSD as well. The people who developed Radius are active FreeBSD users. > Ther's two comercial Xservers Xinside www.xi.com and > Metro-X www.metrolink.com, with drivers for some of the cards XFree can't > support for legal reasons, eg. Matrox Millenium drivers long before > XFree86 had them. Yes, both of them support FreeBSD. > Motif 1.2, 2.0 and CDE, both certified and clones. Also. > Office-apps WordPerfect, ApplixWare www.redhat.com, > NExS www.xess.com, StarOffice, > Corel Draw! (expensive and old), We're off the hardware now. FreeBSD runs Linux binaries, so it will run all these. > Science and Enginering > Mathematica www.wolfram.com, NAG fortran compilers, > NDP fortran www.microway.com > > Microsoft is working on ActiveX for Linux! > Let's hope they don't finish it !-) Right. If they do, they'll probably embed a Trojan Horse. > Order "The Linux Buyer's Guide" from www.ssc.com if you really want to > know what's available. You will be impressed. But that costs money! > "Linux Journal" is a montly paper publication that has existed for 3.5 > years. Last issue (oct) had 114 pages 21x32.5 cm. You can order that from > www.ssc.com as well. Yes, I know Linux Journal. I wrote an article for them on X11 setup a couple of years ago. >> Linux is a clone of UNIX written by Linus Torvalds, a student in Helsinki, >> Finland. At the time, the BSD sources were not freely available, and so Linus >> wrote his own version of UNIX. >> >> Linux is a superb example of how a few dedicated, clever people can produce an >> operating system that is better than well-known commercial systems developed by >> a large number of trained software engineers. It is better even than a number >> of commercial UNIX systems. >> >> Obviously, I don't think Linux is as good as FreeBSD, or I wouldn't be writing >> this book, but the differences between FreeBSD and Linux are more a matter of >> philosophy rather than of concept. Here are a few contrasts: > > >> Table 1-1. Differences between FreeBSD and Linux >> >> FreeBSD is a direct descendent of the Linux is a clone and never contained any >> original UNIX, though it contains no AT&T code >> residual AT&T code. > > Linux was designed to be posix complient, and a hacked version has > actually been certified. Some SysV and BSD feautures have been added for > backwards compatibility. That's not a contradiction, but it might be an addition. I'll think about adding it to the table. >> FreeBSD is a complete operating system, Linux is a kernel, personally maintained >> maintained by a central group of soft- by a Linus Torvalds. The non-kernel >> ware developers. There is only one programs supplied with Linux are part of >> distribution of FreeBSD. a distribution, of which there are sev- >> eral. >> >> FreeBSD aims to be a stable production Linux is still a ``bleeding edge'' de- >> environment. velopment environment, though many dis- >> tributions aim to make it more suitable >> for production use. > > Linux has been on space-missions. > Linux is included in factory machines. > Linux controls Fujitec elevators. > Linux is stable. Well, this last one should probably read "there are stable versions of Linux". As with FreeBSD, there are also bleeding edge versions. > The versions where the 2. number is even is stable, those with a odd 2. > number is development versions. > Current stable version is 2.0. The development version 2.1 will someday > turn into the stable 2.2 version. The 3. number is patchlevel. Thanks for the info. >> As a result of the centralized develop- The ease of installation of Linux de- >> ment style, FreeBSD is straightforward pends on the ``distribution''. If you >> and easy to install. switch from one distribution of Linux to >> another, you'll have to learn a new set >> of installation tools. > > Most people are using the RedHat or Debian distributions. > They are based on upgrade/installation/uninstallation software that keeps > track of dependencies among programs, and allows single button-press > "upgrade everything" upgrading of a Linux box, as well as the tried and > true "download - inspect - configure - compile - install" method. > > Some of the other distributions are using RedHat's software so > programs packaged in RedHat's format can be used on all these > distributions. Again, thanks for the info. I'll consider including it. >> As a result of the lack of knowledge of A growing amount of commercial software >> FreeBSD, not much commercial software is is becoming available for Linux. >> available for it. > > Yes indeed. > >> As a result of the smaller user base, Just about any new board will soon have >> FreeBSD is less likely to have drivers a driver for Linux. >> for brand-new boards than Linux. > > Proberly not the WINdows only crap that's starting to appear (eg. printers > and modems). Yes, but we're trying to ignore them :-) >> Because of the lack of commercial appli- Linux appears not to need to be able to >> cations and drivers, FreeBSD will run run FreeBSD programs or drivers. >> most Linux programs, whether commercial >> or not. It's also relatively simple to >> port Linux drivers to FreeBSD. > > Linux can run many Windows 3.*, mac, sco and SysV binaries. With wine? Yes, we have it on FreeBSD as well. > Ther's a standard Unix on Intel binary standard in the works, supported by > most venders, and Linux himself is involved. ibcs2? Or something newer? >> FreeBSD has a large number of afficiona- Linux has a large number of afficionados >> dos who are prepared to flame anybody who are prepared to flame anybody who >> who dares suggest that it's not better dares suggest that it's not better than >> than Linux. FreeBSD. > > Linux people generally dont recognice FreeBSD. They are normally pointing > out that Linux is much better than NT and Solaris. Unfortunately, there are enough on either side. But maybe I should change the text to show that it's still a minority. > Linux is eg. closer to being complete 64 bit on UltraSparc than SUN's own > Solaris, and runs big applications on PC's with less RAM than NT needs for > running the OS itself. :-) Of course, nobody measures real operating systems by NT. > The Linux community is turning away from being hacker/hobbyist Linux > lovers, and into more business oriented people. Proberly because Linux is > actually being used a lot in the real-world. Hmmm. Interesting. I've heard some of our flamers turning this around and claiming that the Linux people are becoming mercenaries. Maybe it is time that I re-subscribe to Linux Journal. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 07:06:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA28153 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA28103 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id KAA01091 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:04:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: weak support for 1522 (aic driver) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk How can we improve the aic driver in FreeBSD ? I am running 2.1.6 becuase 2.1.7 crash with a kernal panic looking something like this: kernal panic: historical reasons aic.c (line xxxxxx) and 2.2.2 doesn't even see my 1522 card. So what can I do to help, I have never written a Unix device driver, but I will try. To think that 3-4 years ago I donated 2 - 3 boxes of computer books, which included the famous "How to Write a unix Device Driver in C", they even had a working driver for a worm drive. Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 09:42:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09345 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:42:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09278 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA01259 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:08:52 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710231638.CAA01259@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Intel really screwing it up... 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:08:51 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Those of you who are following the current mini-saga with Intel will find the latest installment quite in keeping with the high standard set so far. A moderately discreet little piece of spam wandered in a few minutes ago: ------- Forwarded Message From: i21@surveyweb.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:26:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199710231626.JAA16723@surveyweb.com> To: mike@smith.net.au Subject: Regarding your recent contact with Intel's electronic support Dear Intel Customer: Intel is currently working to improve the quality of its electronic support and as part of this effort would value your feedback about your experience using this service. If you submitted your inquiry via a newsgroup, your reply may have been posted to the newsgroup and not mailed directly to you. Please check the newsgroup for a reply to your inquiry before beginning the survey. The survey should take about 10 minutes and is located at the following Web site: http://intel_tech.surveyweb.com To start the survey, enter the following information exactly as it appears here: Your email address is: mike@smith.net.au Your survey password is: xxxxx Intel has contracted with Griggs-Anderson Research to conduct these ongoing evaluations of the quality of electronic support provided by Intel. Your responses will be forwarded directly to Griggs-Anderson Research. Unless you request an additional contact from Intel, your answers will not be associated with your name, or your company name. No information about you will be sold or furnished to any company or agency for any purpose whatsoever. Please complete the survey as soon as you can so your recall of service quality will be at its peak! On the behalf of Intel - thank you very much for your feedback. ------- End of Forwarded Message Well gee, the thought of a free potshot at Intel was just too good to resist. But lo, what do we have here? An *underscore* in this high-tech survey company's hostname. Whacko, looks like Intel are indeed keeping their standards up. OK, let's be professional. Start by trying 'www.surveyweb.com', after all, they must have at least a mailto to handle their users. The contents of http://www.surveyweb.com/ : title

page

I guess it's not lying though, is it? I can't say I'm amazed, but I have to admit that this is about as pathetic as it gets. Well done all 'round. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 10:02:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10587 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:02:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10579 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02448 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710231702.KAA02448@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD in Forbes Magazine 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:02:42 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Subject: FreeBSD in Forbes magazine! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:44:39 GMT From: le@put.com (Louis Epstein) Organization: Putnam Internet Services Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc The Nov 3rd issue of Forbes,on page 24,prints an edited version of a letter I sent responding to an article on theirs that warns how much cheaper WinNT (which they called a "Unix killer") was than SCO Unix in discussing SCO's prospects.They kept my reference to FreeBSD as a "Windows killer",which they used as a headline,but deleted my mentions of Walnut Creek CDROM and Xi Graphics and my provocative close that for the small business seeking cost-effective networking software, NT shouldn't even be a blip on the screen. The URL is there... From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 10:27:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12053 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from isgate.is (isgate.is [193.4.58.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12045 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from totii@est.is) Received: from eh.est.is (eh.est.is [194.144.208.34]) by isgate.is (8.7.5-M/) with ESMTP id RAA26309; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:27:13 GMT Received: from didda.est.is (totii@ppp-22.est.is [194.144.208.122]) by eh.est.is (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09196; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:25:44 GMT Message-ID: <33F31A67.41C67EA6@est.is> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:47:03 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DEor=F0ur?= Ivarsson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Griffith CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS for the People References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Griffith wrote: > > You might want to check out > http://www.wcmh.com/lantimes/97/97oct/710b061a.html > > They talk about Linux and BSDi Unix, no mention of FreeBSD. Someone should > drop them a line. > > Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com I sent them note about the three BSD system on the net and got reply saying that they got lot of response for not taking them into account. Thordur Ivarsson From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 10:29:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12321 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from isgate.is (isgate.is [193.4.58.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12299 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from totii@est.is) Received: from eh.est.is (eh.est.is [194.144.208.34]) by isgate.is (8.7.5-M/) with ESMTP id RAA26368; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:29:22 GMT Received: from didda.est.is (totii@ppp-22.est.is [194.144.208.122]) by eh.est.is (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09482; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:27:55 GMT Message-ID: <33F31AEA.167EB0E7@est.is> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:49:14 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DEor=F0ur?= Ivarsson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith CC: Greg Lehey , wes@dayna.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS for the People References: <199710230637.QAA00388@word.smith.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 22, 1997 at 06:52:00PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > This is the text of the email I sent to the LAN Times editor: > > > > > >> Thank you for this excellent article informing people of the > > >> (etc) > > > > Good stuff. You might have told them what BSD stands for. > > That's OK. I did that. 8) > > mike Something like Better System Development or ??? Thordur Ivarsson From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 10:52:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14194 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:52:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14188 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:52:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17686 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:52:19 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:51:46 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Reentrancy, threads and all that Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any opinions on the state of threading in the Unix community? I have been working with some optionally threaded code (not written by myself), and the #ifdef's for different operating systems suggest that threaded and reentrant coding conventions are among the least standardized things I have seen in the unix world. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 11:37:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17466 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [204.62.130.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17455 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 10950 invoked from network); 23 Oct 1997 18:37:39 -0000 Received: from localhost.hyperreal.com (HELO brianb.organic.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.hyperreal.com with SMTP; 23 Oct 1997 18:37:39 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971023113030.00969490@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:30:30 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: FreeBSD in Forbes Magazine 8) In-Reply-To: <199710231702.KAA02448@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The URL is: http://www.forbes.com/Forbes/97/1103/6010024a.htm because of course, if it doesn't have a URL, it doesn't really exist... :) >The Nov 3rd issue of Forbes,on page 24,prints an edited version of a >letter I sent responding to an article on theirs that warns how much >cheaper WinNT (which they called a "Unix killer") was than SCO Unix in >discussing SCO's prospects.They kept my reference to FreeBSD as a >"Windows killer",which they used as a headline,but deleted my mentions >of Walnut Creek CDROM and Xi Graphics and my provocative close that >for the small business seeking cost-effective networking software, >NT shouldn't even be a blip on the screen. > >The URL is there... > > --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "it's a big world, with lots of records to play."-sig brian@hyperreal.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 13:12:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24494 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24475 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA28032; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:05:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: Mike Smith cc: Niall Smart , Andrew Atrens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pulling email addresses from freebsd lists In-Reply-To: <199710210903.SAA00631@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > (This topic is Not Appropriate for -hackers.) > > > I disagree, I believe that (mail) protocols which require authentication > > and tracability of the sender would cut spam dramatically, > > This is absurdly naive. > > > If, when you received spam, you > > could determine the senders email, name, and phone number the amount of > > complaints to spammers and their ISP's would rise massively. It would > > also provide the technological infrastructure that governments need to > > enforce anti-spam legislation. > > Alright! Big Brother, here we come. > > You DO NOT want what you are proposing, believe me. I think governments--or perhaps I should speak only of the one I know rather well, the United States Government--would be very pleased to have the technological infrastructure needed to enforce anti-spam legislation. Perhaps one e-mail account per person (a RAND study has already proposed this in a narrower context) or at least all e-mail accounts "legal" and identifiably so. A great benefit of such an arrangement would be the ease with which the government could determine who might be using encryption in violation of any key recovery/key escrow requirements that might exist. This would go a long way toward reducing the anxiety of governments about the Internet. With the USG in the lead, other governments will soon follow; no problem there. So the strategy is just to let that spam roll; and eventually the public will get sufficiently annoyed, upset, and frustrated with all the free offers, chain letters, porn etc. that they will demand government action. And the government will be able to say (about regulation): Hey, you asked for it! > > > If the spammers knew their identity was available, and knew they would > > get caught and prosecuted, then they wouldn't do it. > > They would move offshore. So what? You've sacrificed your ability to > participate in legitimate anonymous communications, and done nothing > about the spam issue. > > mike > > Right on! Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 13:16:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24494 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24475 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA28032; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:05:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: Mike Smith cc: Niall Smart , Andrew Atrens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pulling email addresses from freebsd lists In-Reply-To: <199710210903.SAA00631@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > (This topic is Not Appropriate for -hackers.) > > > I disagree, I believe that (mail) protocols which require authentication > > and tracability of the sender would cut spam dramatically, > > This is absurdly naive. > > > If, when you received spam, you > > could determine the senders email, name, and phone number the amount of > > complaints to spammers and their ISP's would rise massively. It would > > also provide the technological infrastructure that governments need to > > enforce anti-spam legislation. > > Alright! Big Brother, here we come. > > You DO NOT want what you are proposing, believe me. I think governments--or perhaps I should speak only of the one I know rather well, the United States Government--would be very pleased to have the technological infrastructure needed to enforce anti-spam legislation. Perhaps one e-mail account per person (a RAND study has already proposed this in a narrower context) or at least all e-mail accounts "legal" and identifiably so. A great benefit of such an arrangement would be the ease with which the government could determine who might be using encryption in violation of any key recovery/key escrow requirements that might exist. This would go a long way toward reducing the anxiety of governments about the Internet. With the USG in the lead, other governments will soon follow; no problem there. So the strategy is just to let that spam roll; and eventually the public will get sufficiently annoyed, upset, and frustrated with all the free offers, chain letters, porn etc. that they will demand government action. And the government will be able to say (about regulation): Hey, you asked for it! > > > If the spammers knew their identity was available, and knew they would > > get caught and prosecuted, then they wouldn't do it. > > They would move offshore. So what? You've sacrificed your ability to > participate in legitimate anonymous communications, and done nothing > about the spam issue. > > mike > > Right on! Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 13:46:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26380 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:46:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26372 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA16154; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:45:42 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA05994; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:30:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971023223030.GK19027@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:30:30 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: paulg@interlog.com (Paul Griffith) Subject: Re: weak support for 1522 (aic driver) References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Paul Griffith on Oct 23, 1997 10:04:20 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Paul Griffith wrote: > How can we improve the aic driver in FreeBSD ? I am running 2.1.6 becuase > 2.1.7 crash with a kernal panic looking something like this: > > kernal panic: historical reasons That means the driver was about to call the kernel debugger, but there was none. Well, try to bug Adaptec to get some docs first. Then, have a look into the existing driver, and try to spot what needs to be fixed. There's also room for improvement, i think. The driver sources speak about the intention to also implement DMA some day, but this apparently never happened. Don't forget that there's a section about kernel debugging in the handbook -- i assume you'll need it. ;-) If you can spare a second machine for debugging work, remote gdb is really cool. Single-step your kernel in Emacs, gdb in one window, and the source in the other one, if you want. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 22:15:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23173 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:15:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23167 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:15:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA04620; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:21:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:21:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710240521.XAA04620@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pulling email addresses from freebsd lists In-Reply-To: <199710210903.SAA00631@word.smith.net.au> References: <199710210903.SAA00631@word.smith.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith writes: > > I disagree, I believe that (mail) protocols which require authentication > > and tracability of the sender would cut spam dramatically, > > This is absurdly naive. > > > If, when you received spam, you > > could determine the senders email, name, and phone number the amount of > > complaints to spammers and their ISP's would rise massively. It would > > also provide the technological infrastructure that governments need to > > enforce anti-spam legislation. > > Alright! Big Brother, here we come. > > You DO NOT want what you are proposing, believe me. > > > If the spammers knew their identity was available, and knew they would > > get caught and prosecuted, then they wouldn't do it. > > They would move offshore. Or, I'd move offshore and set up an e-mail bouncer, and charge them beacoup $$$ to bounce their spam-o-grams at innocent bystanders like each of us. This is another peek at the grimy underside of human nature: whenever a new communications media becomes available, some slimeball marketroids are going to take advantage of it. It is against the law in the U.S. state of Oregon to make unsolicited telemarketing calls to residential phones. What does this mean? There are no large telemarketing organizations in the state of Oregon. As a matter of fact, most of them are here in Utah, but they still call people in Oregon, because that is not against the law! > So what? You've sacrificed your ability to > participate in legitimate anonymous communications, and done nothing > about the spam issue. Precisely. The problem with "spam mail" is that it is so difficult to separate from "real mail." If everyone on the planet starts dropping mail from hotmail.com, et al, or refuses to allow connections from them, perhaps they will cease and desist. This, like so many other on-line issues, needs to be handled via network channels and *not* legal channels. If we get the lawyers involved, we'll all end up screwed. And we *certainly* don't want the U.S. Federal Birbrained Idiots involved. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 23 22:23:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23470 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:23:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23462 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:23:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA04626; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:28:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:28:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710240528.XAA04626@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Free FreeBSD CD-ROM donations to environmental/non-profit groups? In-Reply-To: <199710211520.KAA02024@dyson.iquest.net> References: <199710210425.WAA16428@pluto.plutotech.com> <199710211520.KAA02024@dyson.iquest.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kenneth Merry said: % I think the FreeBSD project should avoid political involvement of % any kind. I think that we would lose more than we would gain by supporting % one political point of view over another. John S. Dyson writes: > I definitely agree. FreeBSD is currently made up of a very diverse group > of individuals with different social, economic, and political views. Generally, > we all work well together, and lets avoid anything that would cause > factionalization. Because of moral and ethical convictions, I am sure that > large groups of people would have to -quit- given certain causes being backed > by the organization. > > I agree that this is best being left lone. While I don't disagree with you gentlement on this issue, it might be easier for *FreeBSD, Inc.* or perhaps Walnut Creek CDROM to simply develop a policy on donating to non-profit organizations. This frees any and all members of the FreeBSD project from decisions about what sorts of organizations should and should not received support, which is bound to upset somebody somewhere sometime, no matter what you do. For instance, I personally will never again contribute a single cent to any United Way drive, but have no concern whatsoever about the FreeBSD Project donating FreeBSD CDs to the United Way as part of a plan to support "all charitable non-profit organizations" or even "all non-profit organizations." Let the government worry about what is "non-profit" and what is not. Now, let me introduce you to the Salt Lake County Deputy Sherriff's Mutual Aid Association... ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 24 05:18:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA13650 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 05:18:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dumbwinter.logic.it (mod2.logic.it [195.120.151.18] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA13621 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 05:17:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: (qmail 1088 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Oct 1997 12:04:40 -0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:04:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni To: Jason Wells cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are Kudos ok on this list? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971024024019.007c3a60@jcwells.deskmail.washington.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to -chat] On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Jason Wells wrote: [..] > Though I am know where near as knowledgable or experienced as > some people on this list, I have decided to become a FreeBSD > crusader. Any time I get a chance to give my input on a server > problem I am going proclaim FreeBSD as the solution. Same for me here :-) The silly part of the deal is that *all* the bosses I know say: "So you say Yahoo runs FreeBSD, but is it free? Well, if it is free, I doubt it can be as good as [put the junk you prefer here]". Seems that the universe is always generating too many morons than FreeBSD can handle ;-) Cheers Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. "Whuffo you jump out of them airplanes?" From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 24 05:50:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA16494 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 05:50:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gate2.consol.de (mailuser@gate2.consol.de [194.162.127.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA16486 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 05:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwe@consol.de) Received: (from mailuser@localhost) by gate2.consol.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17825; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:51:17 +0200 Received: from gauss.int.consol.de(10.0.1.2) by gate2.consol.de via smap (V2.0) id xma017821; Fri, 24 Oct 97 14:50:12 +0200 Received: from stan.int.consol.de (mwe@stan.int.consol.de [10.0.1.11]) by gauss.int.consol.de (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10575; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mwe@localhost) by stan.int.consol.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02026; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:47:42 +0200 Message-ID: <19971013134742.60619@int.consol.de> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:47:42 +0200 From: Michael Elbel To: Marco Molteni Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are Kudos ok on this list? References: <3.0.3.32.19971024024019.007c3a60@jcwells.deskmail.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85 In-Reply-To: ; from Marco Molteni on Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 02:04:39PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 02:04:39PM +0200, Marco Molteni wrote: > [moved to -chat] > [...] > Same for me here :-) > > The silly part of the deal is that *all* the bosses I know say: "So > you say Yahoo runs FreeBSD, but is it free? Well, if it is free, I > doubt it can be as good as [put the junk you prefer here]". That's why you don't say that it is free in the meaning of costs nothing, which it certainly isn't. Just think of the costs to retreive it and, much more costly, the manpower to support the servers running it. FreeBSD is certainly much less expensive than many other alternatives but it certainly doesn't come for free even you're free to do with it what you want. I've had good results with claiming that FreeBSD is *cost efficient* (low investment costs (CDs or Internet traffic)) and flexible maintenance costs (you actually get what you pay for, nothing more, nothing less). But then we've been through that discussion before. Maybe someone could write up a couple of arguments with regards to freely available vs. costs nothing. Michael From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 24 09:46:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02813 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02808 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:46:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25987; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710241644.JAA25987@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Marco Molteni cc: Jason Wells , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are Kudos ok on this list? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:04:39 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:44:05 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What they are really saying is that the low cost of obtaining FreeBSD is not not the right sales pitch. We need a another theme :( Cheers, Amancio > [moved to -chat] > > On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Jason Wells wrote: > > [..] > > Though I am know where near as knowledgable or experienced as > > some people on this list, I have decided to become a FreeBSD > > crusader. Any time I get a chance to give my input on a server > > problem I am going proclaim FreeBSD as the solution. > > Same for me here :-) > > The silly part of the deal is that *all* the bosses I know say: "So > you say Yahoo runs FreeBSD, but is it free? Well, if it is free, I > doubt it can be as good as [put the junk you prefer here]". > > Seems that the universe is always generating too many morons than > FreeBSD can handle ;-) > > Cheers > Marco Molteni > Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. > "Whuffo you jump out of them airplanes?" > > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 24 10:24:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05516 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from elmira.functional.com (elmira.functional.com [198.82.216.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05480 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:24:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grail@elmira.functional.com) Received: (from grail@localhost) by elmira.functional.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04627; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:23:41 GMT Message-ID: <19971024172340.34697@functional.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:23:40 +0000 From: Giao Nguyen To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Marco Molteni , Jason Wells , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are Kudos ok on this list? References: <199710241644.JAA25987@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710241644.JAA25987@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 09:44:05AM -0700 Organization: FIS Technologies X-Quote: Funny how your feet in dreams never touch the earth. X-Attribute: Heart, _These Dreams_ X-Saying: Maniacal laughter is the best medicine. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty said: > What they are really saying is that the low cost of obtaining FreeBSD is not > not the right sales pitch. How about "FreeBSD doesn't suck." ? > > We need a another theme :( > > > Cheers, > Amancio > > [moved to -chat] [snip] -- Giao Nguyen FIS Technologies Software Design and Network Solutions From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 24 16:42:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29080 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:42:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29070 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:42:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA11946; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:11:46 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971025091146.09572@lemis.com> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:11:46 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Marco Molteni Cc: Jason Wells , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are Kudos ok on this list? References: <3.0.3.32.19971024024019.007c3a60@jcwells.deskmail.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Marco Molteni on Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 02:04:39PM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 02:04:39PM +0200, Marco Molteni wrote: > [moved to -chat] > > On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Jason Wells wrote: > > [..] >> Though I am know where near as knowledgable or experienced as >> some people on this list, I have decided to become a FreeBSD >> crusader. Any time I get a chance to give my input on a server >> problem I am going proclaim FreeBSD as the solution. > > Same for me here :-) > > The silly part of the deal is that *all* the bosses I know say: "So > you say Yahoo runs FreeBSD, but is it free? Well, if it is free, I > doubt it can be as good as [put the junk you prefer here]". > > Seems that the universe is always generating too many morons than > FreeBSD can handle ;-) There's obviously a market for a FreeBSD-gold with support, costing $1000 per CD set, but otherwise the same as the free version :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 24 17:38:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01455 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:38:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01442 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:37:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2028710; 25 Oct 97 1:32 BST Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01442; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:28:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971024192834.62260@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:28:34 +0100 From: James Raynard To: Michael Elbel Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Are Kudos ok on this list? References: <3.0.3.32.19971024024019.007c3a60@jcwells.deskmail.washington.edu> <19971013134742.60619@int.consol.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19971013134742.60619@int.consol.de>; from Michael Elbel on Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 01:47:42PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 01:47:42PM +0200, Michael Elbel wrote: > > But then we've been through that discussion before. Maybe someone > could write up a couple of arguments with regards to freely available > vs. costs nothing. Here's something I wrote about 18 months ago (complete with SGML tags!) Is FreeBSD better than XYZ commercial system?

Again, the decision as to which is better will be influenced by what you want to use them for, but some general points can be made:- FreeBSD is available free of charge, commercial systems are not. (Note - managers often regard this as a disadvantage of FreeBSD, surprisingly enough). Commercial systems come with the phone number of the Support Desk, FreeBSD does not. Commercial systems come with a shelf-full of manuals (or, more usually these days, a documentation CDROM in a proprietary format that you can only read on a working system). FreeBSD does not, unless of course you count the source code... Professional consultants are easier to find for commercial systems. FreeBSD is supported on the Internet by an enthusiastic community of users, including the system developers. Commercial systems are not. (*) FreeBSD supplies features such as TCP/IP or a C compiler as standard. Many commercial systems do not and charge extra for them. FreeBSD allows as many users on a machine as you like (until the system collapses under the load!) Commercial systems require you to buy extra licences if you add more users. Most popular free Unix applications come with the base FreeBSD system, or can be added easily using the ports/packages mechanism. This is not usually the case with commercial systems. The FreeBSD developers use their latest code on their development machines, so any basic errors are quickly caught (if not by the developer, then by members of the user community who eagerly follow the latest code). Surprisingly, this does not appear to happen in certain commercial systems... Because of the open nature of FreeBSD development, mistakes and security holes are quickly found to and fixed. Commercial systems people are reluctant to admit anything could possibly be wrong with their system, and it can take weeks or months before a patch is quietly slipped out. Since they are doing it as a hobby, FreeBSD developers can afford to take the time to do things properly - in fact, as their code will be published, they have every incentive to produce code they can be proud of. Commercial systems developers have to get things done in time to meet deadlines and get paid. (*) This is not quite as true as when I wrote it - for example, some of the Sun developers occasionally post to the Solaris newsgroups. -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 24 18:14:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02854 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (serial.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02836 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@diamond.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03469 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:14:08 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are Kudos ok on this list? In-Reply-To: <19971025091146.09572@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > There's obviously a market for a FreeBSD-gold with support, costing > $1000 per CD set, but otherwise the same as the free version :-) Or, leave out the support, some of the source, and many features and just call it BSDi. Oh wait, that's already been done. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 24 18:40:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03915 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03910 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22295; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12964; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:41:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:41:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca To: James Raynard cc: Michael Elbel , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are Kudos ok on this list? In-Reply-To: <19971024192834.62260@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, James Raynard wrote: > On Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 01:47:42PM +0200, Michael Elbel wrote: > > > > But then we've been through that discussion before. Maybe someone > > could write up a couple of arguments with regards to freely available > > vs. costs nothing. > > Here's something I wrote about 18 months ago (complete with SGML tags!) A good collection of points, but it wouldn't have bothered me a bit if you'd biased it a little more! :) For example, a couple a snide comments about the quality of commercial support... We don't really just have an open nature of developement, we are using a new, innovative open source distribution system which is used to extensively test and review FreeBSD from security, performance, and cost-effectiveness viewpoints. Our open distribution helps enable you (the customer!) to regain control over your business. And, commercial systems don't just charge extra for basic system components, they force you to pay more for features that FreeBSD includes for free! And, dammit, FreeBSD developers are not hobbyists, they are professionals! Professionals who, because they are not pressured by managers concerned only with their own company's bottom line, are able to devote more energy and effort into making the system Work Right(tm) for you. Or, well, whatever... ;-) Where's Jordan? He's good at this kind of bullshit. :-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 24 19:05:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05246 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05241 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:05:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA13417; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:04:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: James Raynard , Michael Elbel , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are Kudos ok on this list? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:41:42 EDT." Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:04:53 -0700 Message-ID: <13414.877745093@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Where's Jordan? He's good at this kind of bullshit. :-) Thanks, but I'm still resting after 2.2.5. You guys will just have to shovel it without me for awhile. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 25 18:31:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06202 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06195 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA29937; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:01:11 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971026120109.01078@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:01:09 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel really screwing it up... 8) References: <199710231638.CAA01259@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710231638.CAA01259@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 02:08:51AM +0930 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Oct 24, 1997 at 02:08:51AM +0930, Mike Smith wrote: > > Those of you who are following the current mini-saga with Intel will > find the latest installment quite in keeping with the high standard set > so far. > > A moderately discreet little piece of spam wandered in a few minutes > ago: > > ------- Forwarded Message > > From: i21@surveyweb.com > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:26:43 -0700 > Message-Id: <199710231626.JAA16723@surveyweb.com> > To: mike@smith.net.au > Subject: Regarding your recent contact with Intel's electronic support > > > Dear Intel Customer: > ... > The survey should take about 10 minutes and is located at the > following Web site: > > http://intel_tech.surveyweb.com > > To start the survey, enter the following information exactly as it > appears here: > > Your email address is: mike@smith.net.au > Your survey password is: xxxxx > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > But lo, what do we have here? An *underscore* in this high-tech survey > company's hostname. Whacko, looks like Intel are indeed keeping their > standards up. Yup, lots of people still have incorrect DNS configs. Remember that FreeBSD is one of the few which complains about underscores. Lots of other people have NS and MX records that point to CNAMEs, for example. > OK, let's be professional. Start by trying 'www.surveyweb.com', after > all, they must have at least a mailto to handle their users. > > The contents of http://www.surveyweb.com/ : > > > > > title > > > > >

> page >

> > > It's changed since you looked. But you can find the address of intel_tech.surveyweb.com with nslookup--it's an A record. I took a look, and there *is* something like a survey there. You need your survey password (see above), so if I were you I'd answer it and add an appropriate comment about their choice of system name. Greg