From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 01:36:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12190 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:36:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12185 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:36:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (mail.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.21]) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA08006; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:36:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:36:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Alex Boisvert cc: Niall Smart , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Distributed systems/processing using FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Alex Boisvert wrote: > > > > I was wondering if anyone had any pointers to information or comments > > on using FreeBSD as the base operating system on which to build some > > infrastructure useful in distributed systems/processing. > > I don't have FreeBSD-specific pointers but you might have a look at the > Coda Project. It's a distributed filesystem (caching and all) based on > AFS (Andrew File System). They have developped many interesting > distributed computing modules: enhanced RPC, shared memory, ... > > Search the web for: +coda +filesystem +distributed If ememory serves, there was a recent discussion of something like this on one of the lists. A reference was made to: http://www.sarnoff.com:8000 > > Alex. > > --- > FreeBSD: Decouvrez la puissance de votre PC! www.freebsd.org > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 01:39:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12294 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:39:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ic4.ic.dk (qmailr@t1p29.telia.dk [194.255.57.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA12289 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:39:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jacob@jblhome.ping.dk) Received: (qmail 11299 invoked from network); 2 Nov 1997 09:27:27 -0000 Received: from ic1.ic.dk (193.88.65.12) by ic4.ic.dk with SMTP; 2 Nov 1997 09:27:27 -0000 Received: from jblhome by ic1.ic.dk with UUCP id AA23824 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4j); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:29:34 +0100 Received: (from jacob@localhost) by pippin.jblhome.ping.dk (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA23253; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:01:43 +0100 (CET) To: Brandon Gillespie Cc: Niall Smart , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Suggested addition to /etc/security References: From: Jacob Bohn Lorensen Date: 02 Nov 1997 10:01:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brandon Gillespie's message of Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:58:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <87vhybr7nv.fsf@pippin.jblhome.ping.dk> Lines: 23 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 X-Charset: ISO_8859-1 X-Char-Esc: 29 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brandon Gillespie writes: > On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Niall Smart wrote: > > On Oct 30, 10:18am, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > > } Subject: Suggested addition to /etc/security > > > find / -nouser -nogroup > > Shouldn't this be "find / -nouser -o -nogroup -print"? > files=`find / -nouser -o -nogroup -print` > ls -ldF $files > (this looks better than find / -nouser -o -nogroup -exec ls -ldF {} \;) Please consider "find / -nouser -o -nogroup -ls"; this keeps consistent columnization (?) and also saves a bunch of exec() and stat() calls, not to mention the problems of calling ls from find with file names including blanks and shell meta-characters. -- Jacob Lorensen; Mosebuen 33, 1.; DK-2820 Gentofte, Denmark; +45-31560401 PGP ID = E596F0B5; PGP Fingerprint = 1E8726467436DC4A 723B6678C5AD9E71 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 01:42:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12502 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:42:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12494 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:42:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA28878; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:42:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971102014238.14394@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:42:38 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: portal pid not correct... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk well.. I was looking at the diffent fs's supported (and using kld to load 'em)... and noticed something strange... note,ttyp0,/dev,666#df -k Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/wd0a 127151 111657 5322 95% / /dev/wd0s2 170264 163352 6912 96% /msdos procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc hydrogen:/a 1803463 1350919 308267 81% /a hydrogen:/b 1748071 1498998 109228 93% /b kernfs 1 1 0 100% /kern portal:4254 1 1 0 100% /mnt then a search for procid 4254: note,ttyp0,/dev,667#ps lax | grep 4254 note,ttyp0,/dev,668# now a search for a portal process: note,ttyp0,/dev,668#ps lax | grep portal 0 4255 1 0 2 0 416 212 select Is ?? 0:00.01 portal /tmp/ I took a look at the code.. and basicly it doesn't become a daemon before tring to mount the fs... and this is understandable else you can't return a failed mount... now as I see this, there are a couple ways to fix this... a) just become a daemon and then mount, this isn't very attrative as the error doesn't get reported b) do something were it will fork off the child, child will immediately SIGSTOP itself, then parent will mount, and then parent will SIGCONT the process for normal execution, or kill it off if the mount failed. c) insert your idea hear comments? ideas? -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 02:25:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA14026 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:25:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gw.itfs.nsk.su (gw.itfs.nsk.su [193.124.36.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA14016 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:25:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from itfs!news!nnd%itfs.nsk.su@gw.itfs.nsk.su) Received: from itfs.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by gw.itfs.nsk.su (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id QAA21384 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:25:06 +0600 Received: by itfs.nsk.su; Sun, 2 Nov 97 16:24:46 +0600 (NSK) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by news.itfs.nsk.su (8.7.5/8.6.12) id QAA25837; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:15:10 +0600 (NSK) From: nnd@itfs.nsk.su To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cyclades :( Date: 2 Nov 1997 10:15:08 GMT Message-ID: <63hjrc$on2@news.itfs.nsk.su> References: <199711011653.IAA03064@implode.root.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman wrote: > > Driver's text inspection shows that there is ONLY ONE > >significant difference with 'standard FreeBSD's' cy-driver: > >(this is a 'diff -bu' result for /sys/i386/isa/cy.c version > >1.55 of 1997/09/21) > > > >--- cy.c.ORIG Sat Nov 1 13:33:19 1997 > >+++ cy.c Sat Nov 1 13:36:55 1997 > >@@ -410,7 +404,7 @@ > > #endif > > > > static int cy_chip_offset[] = { > >- 0x0000, 0x0200, 0x0400, 0x0600, 0x0100, 0x0300, 0x0500, 0x0700, > >+ 0x0000, 0x0400, 0x0800, 0x0c00, 0x0200, 0x0600, 0x0a00, 0x0e00 > > }; > > static int cy_nr_cd1400s[NCY]; > > static int cy_total_devices; > > > > > > Can someone with Cyclom-8/16YeP (and problems ;-) > >test this patch ? I myself can not test it because my only ONE > >Cyclom-16YeP now busily serves 12 modems on Linux box. > > > > Partial "correctnes proof" for this patch can be found > >in (working) Linux 'cy' (or 'cz') driver which uses the same > >chip_offset addresses as in "patched" driver, but not as in > >original FreeBSD's 'cy' driver. > If you look at the cy_inb/cy_outb functions in cyreg.h, you'll see that > the offset is adjusted (shifted left by one bit) for the PCI card, making > the appropriate adjustment. The above change (which has the left shift built > in to the numbers) would effectively double this shift. What I'm saying is > that unless I'm really missing something, the patch can't be correct. Yes I know that this 'cy_chip_offset' values are shifted left by one bit for PCI (and for 0 bits for ISA) and therefore can not explain how can FreeBSD's version of driver works at all ;-) Even with the fact that most inb/outbs are in fact cd_inb/cd_outb with following definitions: #define cd_inb(iobase, reg, cy_align) (*((iobase) + ((reg)*2 << (cy_align)))) #define cy_inb(iobase, reg) (*((iobase) + (reg))) #define cd_outb(iobase, reg, cy_align, val) ((void)(*((iobase) + ((reg)*2 << (cy_align))) = (val))) #define cy_outb(iobase, reg, val) ((void)(*((iobase) + (reg)) = (val))) Here are the parts of working (just now in one of my PCs) Linux driver: .... static char rcsid[] = "$Revision: 1.36.4.33 $$Date: 1997/06/27 19:00:00 $"; /* * linux/drivers/char/cyclades.c * * This file contains the driver for the Cyclades Cyclom-Y multiport * serial boards. * * Maintained by Marcio Saito (marcio@cyclades.com) and * Randolph Bentson (bentson@grieg.seaslug.org) * * For Technical support and installation problems, please send e-mail * to support@cyclades.com. * * Much of the design and some of the code came from serial.c * which was copyright (C) 1991, 1992 Linus Torvalds. It was * extensively rewritten by Theodore Ts'o, 8/16/92 -- 9/14/92, * and then fixed as suggested by Michael K. Johnson 12/12/92. ...... /* The Cyclom-Ye has placed the sequential chips in non-sequential * address order. This look-up table overcomes that problem. */ static int cy_chip_offset [] = { 0x0000, 0x0400, 0x0800, 0x0C00, 0x0200, 0x0600, 0x0A00, 0x0E00 }; ..... card_base_addr = (unsigned char *)cinfo->base_addr; index = cinfo->bus_index; /* This loop checks all chips in the card. Make a note whenever _any_ chip had some work to do, as this is considered an indication that there will be more to do. Only when no chip has any work does this outermost loop exit. */ do{ had_work = 0; for ( chip = 0 ; chip < cinfo->num_chips ; chip ++) { base_addr = (unsigned char *) (cinfo->base_addr + (cy_chip_offset[chip]< Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA17538 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:14:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from postman.opengroup.org (postman.opengroup.org [130.105.1.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA17533 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:14:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from k.#nojunk#keithley@opengroup.org) Received: from kaleb.keithley.belmont.ma.us (horizon1.camb.opengroup.org [130.105.39.25]) by postman.opengroup.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA12056 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:13:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <345C27BF.446B9B3D@opengroup.org> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 02:11:59 -0500 From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Organization: The Open Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: building tools with -g is too hard Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------59E2B60015FB7483794BDF32" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------59E2B60015FB7483794BDF32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm trying to build a debuggable ld so I can find out why it SEGVs when linking a program with a large library (libX11) which itself has been built debuggable. That following patch lets me go, e.g., to my /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/ld (or where ever) and type `make CDEBUGFLAGS=-g` and get a debuggable version of whatever I'm building, without resorting to editing the Makefile every time I want to do this (which is pretty rare, but that's beside the point.) This patch was made on a 2.2.2R system. --------------59E2B60015FB7483794BDF32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="sys.mk.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="sys.mk.patch" *** /usr/share/mk/sys.mk.orig Sun Nov 2 01:41:44 1997 --- /usr/share/mk/sys.mk Sun Nov 2 01:42:29 1997 *************** *** 38,44 **** .else CC ?= cc .endif ! CFLAGS ?= -O CXX ?= c++ CXXFLAGS ?= ${CXXINCLUDES} ${CFLAGS} --- 38,45 ---- .else CC ?= cc .endif ! CDEBUGFLAGS ?= -O ! CFLAGS ?= ${CDEBUGFLAGS} CXX ?= c++ CXXFLAGS ?= ${CXXINCLUDES} ${CFLAGS} --------------59E2B60015FB7483794BDF32-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 05:19:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA19352 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:19:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA19347 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@lakewood.com) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp9.monmouth.com [205.164.221.41]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA15668; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id IAA01603 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:19:50 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199711021319.IAA01603@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: Problem with ed driver in 2.2.5 In-Reply-To: from Phil Gilley at "Nov 1, 97 10:47:16 pm" To: pgilley@metronet.com (Phil Gilley) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:19:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I couldn't figure out how to change the ISA bus speed on that PC so I > tried a different 486/66 and SMC WD8013EPC. > If I disable the 0WS option in the ed driver things work fine. Am I > the only person experiencing this or am I just the only person still > running old hardware? > > Phil Gilley > pgilley@metronet.com > > No... I'm running the same age stuff... 486, SMC (well, this one has a later ethernet...). I've even run the 8003's in this box up through 2.0.5. ed0: address 00:00:c0:42:cf:9d, type SMC8216/SMC8216C (16 bit) ) I found I needed to drop the mtu to 1024 in 2.2. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 732-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 06:02:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA20684 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:02:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from isgate.is (isgate.is [193.4.58.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA20674 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:02:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from totii@est.is) Received: from eh.est.is (eh.est.is [194.144.208.34]) by isgate.is (8.7.5-M/) with ESMTP id OAA11444; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:01:56 GMT Received: from didda.est.is (totii@ppp-22.est.is [194.144.208.122]) by eh.est.is (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA23410; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:00:13 GMT Message-ID: <345C87C9.15FB7483@est.is> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 14:01:45 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DEor=F0ur?= Ivarsson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" CC: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 7400 gates effected by probe routine References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA20675 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > > > > > It's not too hard to trace the board back, but regardless this card of > > yours has the change-of-state stuff; does it have a status register for > > same? > > The only readable ports are the 8255s > There is a change of state control (write only) > and a clear change of state (write only) > in addition to the two 8255s > > It is all reads 0xff like bus (16 ports), and what is really lame is that > they had 6 extra ports, I wish they had stuck some magic numbers in there > to read. > > > > > Also, I don't have the right databook(s) here; what does the MODE/BITC > > register on the 8255 read after reset? > > Nothing (0xff), the mode register is write only (at least for me) > > > Not really, no, unless MODE reads != 0xff. The 8255 isn't what you'd > > describe as the most sophisticated bit of hardware. I'd still > > recommend looking at the driver as having to address the hardware on > > the other side of the card, rather than the card itself. > > I wish I had some hardware sophisticated enough for that! I just can't > see how you'd have anything that sophisticated unless you were > implementing some kind of bus with the thing, which for a card that > operates in MODE0 would be kinda cludgy, since MODE1 or 2? provides some > bi-directional features with port c as the status port. > > What I have considered however is the discrete state virtual machine > someone mentioned previously. Perhaps based on the 6800 instruction set. > Giving the card its own instruction set via > the driver, so that the driver could be programmed from the users level to > respond to events (change of states) with somekind of coherent and > reliable outputs. I guess ol' tsleep() would certainly be the thing here > hunh? > > I can immediately think of something this would be useful for as I worked > on a project were I used an off the shelf rommable 68hc11 board equipped > with a single 8255 as the sole interface to the outside equipment. > > The key here would be to guarantee some kind of responsiveness because the > virtual machines would run inside the kernel. This ofcourse would be > something for the future, but I'd really like to keep this open. I'm > beggin yah to commit the thing! I am not sure at the moment but I have been working with Rocwell 6522 PIA and I think it should be possible to probe 8255 in same manner as 6522, send byte to output ports and read back, if they are defined as output you should get the same back out from them. I think you can also with the control register. Do you have the 8255 datasheet ? it is available from Intel website -- Þórður Ívarsson Thordur Ivarsson Rafeindavirki Electronic technician Norðurgötu 30 Nordurgotu 30 Box 309 Box 309 602 Akureyri 602 Akureyri Ísland Iceland --------------------------------------------- FreeBSD has good features, Some others are full of unwanted features! --------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 06:43:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA23370 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (edDnTYuONr0uWzpbYSegPaAdwUESQPwG@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA23358 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:43:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak66.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.33.66] ([Xxz/HvRkJOqEtfke2dGm6RPSz+MuRr+1]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xS1F7-0002EF-00; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:43:09 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak66.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xS1Eg-0000MG-00; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:42:42 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:42:42 +0000 In-Reply-To: Brian Somers "Re: Suggested addition to /etc/security" (Nov 2, 1:02am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Brian Somers , njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Subject: Re: Suggested addition to /etc/security Cc: Brandon Gillespie , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 2, 1:02am, Brian Somers wrote: } Subject: Re: Suggested addition to /etc/security > > On Nov 1, 10:58am, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > > > > > find / -nouser -nogroup > > > > Shouldn't this be "find / -nouser -o -nogroup -print"? > > > Yeah, or even better: > > > > > > files=`find / -nouser -o -nogroup -print` > > > ls -ldF $files > > > > > > (this looks better than find / -nouser -o -nogroup -exec ls -ldF {} \;) > > > > Looks better? They should produce identical output. "find / -nouser -o > > -nogroup -print | xargs -n 30" is more efficient btw :)) however > > using -exec with find is othe only one that works with filenames with > > embedded spaces. > > Check the -print0 option on find. That, and the -0 option to xargs > makes it a far better choice than -exec. Ah, I was aware of this but thought it was a GNUism. > BTW, why the -n 30 to xargs ? Well I thought that size of the arguments to ls might exceed ARG_MAX but a quick read of the xargs man page shows that it deals with this possibility (the default -s option is ARG_MAX - 2048) so I guess it's not necessary after all, even if it was necessary that probably wasn't the best way to deal with it so forget I ever mentioned it ;) Niall From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 07:16:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA26392 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:16:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26387 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:16:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: from gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.8.7/RBI-Z14) with ESMTP id QAA22018 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:16:19 +0100 (MET) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id QAA04864 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:31:07 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:31:07 +0100 (MET) From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199711021531.QAA04864@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: gcc and bitfields Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk During porting a piece of a DOS program to make a driver for FreeBSD of it for a certain device I'm stuck at the point where there is a structure: struct C_OPEN { int a; int b; unsigned xdt:1; unsigned reserved:15; } The sizeof this structure is 10 under DOS (borland C) and evaluates to 12 under cc (gcc) on FreeBSD. There are a lot of these definitions and it would be tedious to find a workaround. Does anyone know if I can pack the structure respectively enforce the bitfield to a short int? -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 08:18:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA28534 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:18:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA28529 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:18:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jwm@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (jwm@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA02063; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:18:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199711021618.IAA02063@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> To: Christoph Kukulies Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gcc and bitfields In-reply-to: Message from Christoph Kukulies of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 16:31:07 +0100." <199711021531.QAA04864@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 08:18:29 -0800 From: John Milford Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > During porting a piece of a DOS program to make a driver > for FreeBSD of it for a certain device I'm stuck at the > point where there is a structure: > > struct C_OPEN { > int a; > int b; > unsigned xdt:1; > unsigned reserved:15; > } > > The sizeof this structure is 10 under DOS (borland C) > and evaluates to 12 under cc (gcc) on FreeBSD. > > There are a lot of these definitions and it would be > tedious to find a workaround. > > Does anyone know if I can pack the structure respectively > enforce the bitfield to a short int? By default gcc pads structures to make make the size a multiple of 4 bytes. Try: struct C_OPEN { int a; int b; unsigned xdt:1; unsigned reserved:15; } __attribute__ ((packed)); --John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 08:21:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA28666 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:21:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA28656 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:21:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA00415 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:20:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga9-17.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.113) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000069; Sun Nov 2 10:18:41 1997 Message-ID: <345CA7BE.B8E3E25B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 11:18:06 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 7400 gates effected by probe routine References: <345C87C9.15FB7483@est.is> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Þorður Ivarsson wrote: > > I am not sure at the moment but I have been working with Rocwell 6522 > PIA and > I think it should be possible to probe 8255 in same manner as 6522, send > byte to > output ports and read back, if they are defined as output you should get > the > same back out from them. I think you can also with the control register. > > Do you have the 8255 datasheet ? it is available from Intel website > > -- > Þórður Ívarsson Thordur Ivarsson > Rafeindavirki Electronic technician > Norðurgötu 30 Nordurgotu 30 > Box 309 Box 309 > 602 Akureyri 602 Akureyri > Ísland Iceland > > --------------------------------------------- > FreeBSD has good features, > Some others are full of unwanted features! > --------------------------------------------- FWIR, you can't read the outputs back from a simple buffered 8255. We designed a board once with a registered PAL to front-end the 8255 for that function. Good Luck, Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 08:32:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29121 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29112 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:32:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: from gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.8.7/RBI-Z14) with ESMTP id RAA22543; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:32:20 +0100 (MET) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id RAA05051; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:47:10 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971102174709.12838@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:47:09 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies To: John Milford Cc: Christoph Kukulies , freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gcc and bitfields References: <199711021618.IAA02063@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199711021618.IAA02063@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; from John Milford on Sun, Nov 02, 1997 at 08:18:29AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Nov 02, 1997 at 08:18:29AM -0800, John Milford wrote: > Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > > > > During porting a piece of a DOS program to make a driver > > for FreeBSD of it for a certain device I'm stuck at the > > point where there is a structure: > > > > struct C_OPEN { > > int a; > > int b; > > unsigned xdt:1; > > unsigned reserved:15; > > } > > > > The sizeof this structure is 10 under DOS (borland C) > > and evaluates to 12 under cc (gcc) on FreeBSD. > > > > There are a lot of these definitions and it would be > > tedious to find a workaround. > > > > Does anyone know if I can pack the structure respectively > > enforce the bitfield to a short int? > > By default gcc pads structures to make make the size a multiple of 4 bytes. > Try: > > struct C_OPEN { > int a; > int b; > unsigned xdt:1; > unsigned reserved:15; > } __attribute__ ((packed)); I tried that already to no avail. struct C_OPEN { int a; int b; unsigned xtd:1; unsigned reserved:15; } __attribute__ ((packed)); main() { printf("sizeof struct C_OPEN = %d\n", sizeof (struct C_OPEN)); } $ ./a.out 12 Ah, I found it: making the bitfield declarations unsigned short works. > > > > --John -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 08:53:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00262 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:53:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.radio-do.de (gatekeeper.Radio-do.de [193.101.164.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00257 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:53:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fn@gatekeeper.radio-do.de) From: Frank Nobis Message-Id: <199711021655.RAA28154@gatekeeper.radio-do.de> Received: by gatekeeper.radio-do.de (8.8.5/RADIO-1.3(GEN-1.2.16)) via EUnet for freefall.freebsd.org id RAA28154; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:55:51 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: gcc and bitfields In-Reply-To: <199711021618.IAA02063@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> from John Milford at "Nov 2, 97 08:18:29 am" To: jwm@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (John Milford) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:55:51 +0100 (MET) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: John Milford > By default gcc pads structures to make make the size a multiple of 4 bytes. > Try: > > struct C_OPEN { > int a; > int b; > unsigned xdt:1; > unsigned reserved:15; > } __attribute__ ((packed)); > Make it unsigned short too, then it will work out with a size of 10. -- Frank Nobis Email: PGP AVAILABLE Landgrafenstr. 130 dg3dcn http://www.radio-do.de/~fn/ 44139 Dortmund Powered by FreeBSD Fax: +49 231 7213816 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 09:04:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00873 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00865 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from panke.panke.de (anonymous213.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.213]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07947; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:55:43 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by panke.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA00256; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:51:30 +0100 (MET) To: Tom Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggested addition to /etc/security References: From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 02 Nov 1997 17:51:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: Tom's message of Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:43:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Lines: 13 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tom writes: > > > echo "checking for invalid user or group ids:" > > > find / -nouser -nogroup > How does this check improve security? > Also, shouldn't the security script be run under idprio? No. find is disk I/O bound. idprio set only the CPU scheduling priority. Root-Cron jobs should never started with idprio because a non-root user process can block the jobs. This is a security risk ;-) -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 11:27:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07748 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:27:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07739 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:27:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10045; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:27:24 -0700 (MST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03456; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:27:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:27:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711021927.MAA03456@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Phil Gilley Cc: David Greenman , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem with ed driver in 2.2.5 In-Reply-To: References: <199711010758.XAA28986@implode.root.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Phil Gilley writes: > On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, David Greenman wrote: > > > Hmmm. Not sure how to deal with this. The reason why 0WS was turned on > > was to 'fix' a serious ISA shared-memory performance problem that a lot of > > newer motherboards have - the 8K RAM cards are almost useless > > without it. > > transfers. When it does work I get transfer rates around 40 KB/s. > If I disable the 0WS option in the ed driver things work fine. Am I > the only person experiencing this or am I just the only person still > running old hardware? Well, I'm going to be installing a new SMC Ultra card in my gateway box this week (moving from Frame Relay to Wireless. :), and I know the settings on it are correct. It'll have an old card, and a new card but it will be running 2.1.5. If you can give me the patch to enable 0WS on the 2.1.5 driver I'll enable it to see if it breaks my box with either card, since I'll have one of the older SMC Ultra's and a brand-new SMC Ultra in it. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 11:45:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09062 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09055 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:45:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xS5vU-0004S5-00; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:43:12 -0800 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:43:09 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Wolfram Schneider cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggested addition to /etc/security In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 2 Nov 1997, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > Tom writes: > > > > echo "checking for invalid user or group ids:" > > > > find / -nouser -nogroup > > How does this check improve security? > > Also, shouldn't the security script be run under idprio? > > No. find is disk I/O bound. idprio set only the CPU scheduling priority. find is perhaps disk i/o bound, depeding on the speed of the disks and cpu. I notice here that doing just a "find . > /dev/null" rachets up the load quite nicely. More complex find options will hurt even more. Also, chewing up disk i/o bandwidth isn't a good thing either, will hurt other applications. Is it possible to run /etc/security and not have performance degraded during this period? It seems that either the CPU and/or disk bandwith will takes a big hit. > Root-Cron jobs should never started with idprio because a non-root > user process can block the jobs. This is a security risk ;-) > > -- > Wolfram Schneider http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/ > > Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 12:40:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA11153 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:40:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trojanhorse.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11147 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:40:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by trojanhorse.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA00481; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:39:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:39:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: Tom cc: Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Suggested addition to /etc/security In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've thought about this before, it would be interesting to be able to limit the rate of i/o per second for a process. Since find isn't really eating much user cpu, it is all that time spent in the kernel thrashing the disk that makes the difference. Maybye even better you could limit the _physical i/o_, this is really the same reason any user can seriously lag the system with a: cat /dev/urandom > /dev/null This is really a flaw in the prioritization design that only CPU is considered and not i/o (unless I am mistaken, which is emminently possible) > find is perhaps disk i/o bound, depeding on the speed of the disks and > cpu. I notice here that doing just a "find . > /dev/null" rachets up the > load quite nicely. More complex find options will hurt even more. > > Also, chewing up disk i/o bandwidth isn't a good thing either, will hurt > other applications. > > Is it possible to run /etc/security and not have performance degraded > during this period? It seems that either the CPU and/or disk bandwith > will takes a big hit. > > > Root-Cron jobs should never started with idprio because a non-root > > user process can block the jobs. This is a security risk ;-) > > > > -- > > Wolfram Schneider http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/ > > > > > > Tom > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 13:34:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13152 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:34:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13127 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:33:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (max4-65.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.65]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA19407; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:33:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA19944; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:40:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711022040.OAA19944@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DEor=F0ur?= Ivarsson , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: 7400 gates effected by probe routine In-reply-to: Message from "Jamil J. Weatherbee" of "Sat, 01 Nov 1997 20:57:03 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 14:40:45 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA13128 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Ah... Thanks, What your'e talking about a 7401 (open collector nor) or a > 7405 (open collector nand) (TTL Cookbook pg. 137), unfortunately I don't > have a choice with this > so I probably will just forget the probe routines. Was wondering what kind of designer would tie the outputs of (2) TTL 7400 gates together. Now as I understand it, the output gates that are tied together are OC. So what are you worried about? This is what God made OC parts for. OC outputs never source current, they only sink it. To make the circuit work you need a pull up resistor. This resistor, not the number of other OC outputs on the circuit, determines how much current your OC "output" has to sink if it wants the circuit "low". With 74HCxx, a 100k pullup resistor might be usable for very low current. A 470 ohm pullup may be the practical lower limit for a plain old 74xx. The really high resistance values will swtich slower, depends on how much capacitance you have. I usually use 4.7k pullups on HC parts. Combining OC outputs on a ciruit results in an inverted-OR. If any one gate decides the line should be low, it will be. This is most often seen in CPU reset circuits, and IRQ buses. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 14:13:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15010 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:13:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from unix.tfs.net (root@unix.tfs.net [199.79.146.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15004 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:13:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@argus.tfs.net) Received: from argus.tfs.net (pm3-p21.tfs.net [206.154.183.213]) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA17145; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:11:58 -0600 Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus.tfs.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA00245; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:13:21 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199711022213.QAA00245@argus.tfs.net> Subject: Re: gcc and bitfields In-Reply-To: <199711021618.IAA02063@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> from John Milford at "Nov 2, 97 08:18:29 am" To: jwm@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (John Milford) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:13:20 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-to: jbryant@tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE #0: Wed Jul 9 01:01:24 CDT 1997 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > > > > During porting a piece of a DOS program to make a driver > > for FreeBSD of it for a certain device I'm stuck at the > > point where there is a structure: > > > > struct C_OPEN { > > int a; > > int b; > > unsigned xdt:1; > > unsigned reserved:15; > > } > > > > The sizeof this structure is 10 under DOS (borland C) > > and evaluates to 12 under cc (gcc) on FreeBSD. ahem, DOG should show 6 bytes. > > There are a lot of these definitions and it would be > > tedious to find a workaround. > > > > Does anyone know if I can pack the structure respectively > > enforce the bitfield to a short int? > > By default gcc pads structures to make make the size a multiple of 4 bytes. > Try: > > struct C_OPEN { > int a; > int b; > unsigned xdt:1; > unsigned reserved:15; > } __attribute__ ((packed)); i didn't know about this... but it will still not solve his problem... sizeof(struct C_OPEN) will still == 12. under MS-DOG, sizeof(int || unsigned) == 2. which is strange, because his sizing above should actually show 6 under DOG. since he apparently uses 16 bits in the bitfield, I can assume that to be a short. thus: > struct C_OPEN { > int a; > int b; > unsigned short xdt:1; /* note addition of short */ > unsigned short reserved:15; /* note addition of short */ > } __attribute__ ((packed)); should work. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 15:49:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18594 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:49:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18589; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:49:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA01104; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:56:38 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199711022356.AAA01104@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: BIOS information preservation (was Re: >64MB) In-Reply-To: <19971101121925.29007@mi.uni-koeln.de> from Stefan Esser at "Nov 1, 97 12:19:25 pm" To: se@FreeBSD.ORG (Stefan Esser) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:56:37 +0100 (CET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Stefan Esser: > The free Wordview binary runs fine under Wine. > I've used it a number of times to read MS-Word > .doc files. But there is no printer support, yet. Does it have virus support (macros)? :-) /Mikael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 15:56:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18863 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:56:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br ([146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18839; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:55:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00864; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:55:33 -0200 (EDT) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199711022355.VAA00864@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-Reply-To: <199711022156.WAA19972@bitbox.follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Nov 2, 97 10:56:59 pm" To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:55:33 -0200 (EDT) Cc: se@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-all@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Following up to -hackers, this discussion seems to belong there) #define quoting(Eivind Eklund) // > I have not yet tested the functionality of kdm, but there seems // > to be a problem with decoding the screenlock password, so it may // // This is because we use shadow passwords, and the KDE screensavers are // installed non-setuid by default. Changing their permissions to // 4555 root.wheel will make them work. However - do we really want to // distribute a lot of extra setuid programs? (The correct design would // have been to have a single module that checked the password.) This is a design problem, IMHO. In the old days of Version 7 UNIX, I've done some user programs that checked the user identity by testing his password, and I didn't need (nor wanted) to run that program suid to root. (No, having the right UID has not enough for me. I did not believe the machine's operators, and history has proven me right.) Now, this can only be done with root privileges, openning doors to more security flaws. xlock is a pretty example. Why should it be suid root for only for password testing ? But, how to allow users check only their own password, and still have the added security of shadow passwords ? I can only think in a kind of password checking daemon that would accept commands on a AF_UNIX socket and some patches to libc pw commands. Is this worth the extra work ? Not for me anymore, but I would really like to see such a feature. Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 16:19:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19886 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:19:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19867; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:19:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xSACf-0004n8-00; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:17:13 -0800 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:17:11 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Eivind Eklund , se@freebsd.org, cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, cvs-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-Reply-To: <199711022355.VAA00864@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: ... > But, how to allow users check only their own password, and still > have the added security of shadow passwords ? I can only think > in a kind of password checking daemon that would accept commands > on a AF_UNIX socket and some patches to libc pw commands. You can always use the pwcheck daemon from the Cyrus module (see ports). It opens a unix socket at /var/pwcheck/pwcheck. Permissions on the /var/pwcheck directory can be used to determine who can check passwords. > Jonny > > -- > Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br > +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br > Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI > PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 > > Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 16:26:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20292 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:26:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20287; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:26:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01264; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:33:02 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199711030033.BAA01264@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: 2.2.5 installation bug on 1gig machines In-Reply-To: <199711010724.XAA28863@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Oct 31, 97 11:24:48 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:33:01 +0100 (CET) Cc: bugs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to David Greenman: > >At 04:40 PM 10/31/97 -0800, David Greenman wrote: > >>You'll > >>have to physically pull out some of the memory and/or replace it with > >>lower density SIMMs until you've finished the installation and built a > >>customized kernel. > > > >Can the kernel know (or calculate) the maximum amount of memory it can > >use without crashing? If so, it could refuse to register memory greater > >than that amount. > > Uh, well, the answer to this is that there is a bug in the kernel that is > causing the problem. We didn't test kernel's with the BOUNCE_BUFFERS option > on any large memory systems. Otherwise, how much memory a system has is not > an issue with regard to the system crashing (resources allocated out of that > memory can be a problem if tuned wrong, but that is a different issue). I seem to remember some machines needing BOUNCE_BUFFERS at installation time so that the option must be there, but why not compile the installation boot disk's kernel with a small check that will simply "set" the memory to say, min(REAL_MEMORY, 32MB) so that it will never seem to have more then 32 MB memory during installation? That shouldn't matter that much during installation anyway, should it? /Mikael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 16:28:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20605 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from metronet.com (pgilley@fohnix.metronet.com [192.245.137.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20587 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:28:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pgilley@metronet.com) Received: from localhost by metronet.com with SMTP id AA22217 (5.67a/IDA1.5hp for ); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:29:11 -0600 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:29:10 -0600 (CST) From: Phil Gilley To: Nate Williams Cc: David Greenman , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem with ed driver in 2.2.5 In-Reply-To: <199711021927.MAA03456@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > Well, I'm going to be installing a new SMC Ultra card in my gateway box > this week (moving from Frame Relay to Wireless. :), and I know the > settings on it are correct. It'll have an old card, and a new card but > it will be running 2.1.5. If you can give me the patch to enable 0WS on > the 2.1.5 driver I'll enable it to see if it breaks my box with either > card, since I'll have one of the older SMC Ultra's and a brand-new SMC > Ultra in it. Try this: --- if_ed.c.orig Sun Nov 2 16:33:50 1997 +++ if_ed.c Sun Nov 2 18:10:11 1997 @@ -596,7 +596,7 @@ outb(sc->asic_addr + ED_WD_LAAR, ED_WD_LAAR_M16EN); } else { outb(sc->asic_addr + ED_WD_LAAR, (sc->wd_laar_proto = - ED_WD_LAAR_L16EN | ED_WD_LAAR_M16EN | + ED_WD_LAAR_L16EN | ED_WD_LAAR_M16EN | ED_WD_LAAR_0WS 16 | ((kvtop(sc->mem_start) >> 19) & ED_WD_LAAR_ADDRHI))) ; } } else { Phil Gilley pgilley@metronet.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 16:38:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21146 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br ([146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21140 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:38:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01787; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:37:52 -0200 (EDT) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199711030037.WAA01787@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: make -j4 on kernel In-Reply-To: <199711012229.PAA05003@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Nov 1, 97 03:29:04 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:37:52 -0200 (EDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(Warner Losh) // Is make -j 4 (for any value of 4 greater than 1) suppored in -current? // I just tried it on a clean directory, and it failed badly on some // include file that is generated. Pilot error, or unsupported feature? Not a -hackers question, but try doing a make depend first. Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 16:40:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21488 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:40:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21361 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:40:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00455; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:04:37 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711030034.LAA00455@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DEor=F0ur?= Ivarsson cc: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" , Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 7400 gates effected by probe routine In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 14:01:45 -0000." <345C87C9.15FB7483@est.is> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:04:35 +1030 From: Mike Smith Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA21410 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I am not sure at the moment but I have been working with Rocwell 6522 > PIA and I think it should be possible to probe 8255 in same manner as > 6522, send byte to output ports and read back, if they are defined as > output you should get the same back out from them. I think you can > also with the control register. a) The 8255 defaults to all-ports-input at reset. b) It is unacceptable to re-mode the 8255 and then write random garbage into its output registers, as this may have undesirable or fatal effects on attached hardware. > Do you have the 8255 datasheet ? it is available from Intel website I have (now) in front of me the Intel Peripheral Components databook. This confirms that it is not possible to probe the 8255 in any useful fashion without knowing what is connected on the other side. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 16:55:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22461 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:55:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22433 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:55:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00604; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:21:15 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711030051.LAA00604@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Christoph Kukulies cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: gcc and bitfields In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 16:31:07 BST." <199711021531.QAA04864@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:21:15 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > During porting a piece of a DOS program to make a driver > for FreeBSD of it for a certain device I'm stuck at the > point where there is a structure: > > struct C_OPEN { > int a; > int b; > unsigned xdt:1; > unsigned reserved:15; > } > > The sizeof this structure is 10 under DOS (borland C) > and evaluates to 12 under cc (gcc) on FreeBSD. > > There are a lot of these definitions and it would be > tedious to find a workaround. > > Does anyone know if I can pack the structure respectively > enforce the bitfield to a short int? __attribute__ ((packed)) (Read the info entry on gcc, under 'C extensions/Variable Attributes'. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 17:05:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23122 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:05:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23116 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:05:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00660; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:31:25 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711030101.LAA00660@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: jbryant@tfs.net cc: jwm@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (John Milford), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gcc and bitfields In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 16:13:20 MDT." <199711022213.QAA00245@argus.tfs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:31:24 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > struct C_OPEN { > > > int a; > > > int b; > > > unsigned xdt:1; > > > unsigned reserved:15; > > > } > > > > > > The sizeof this structure is 10 under DOS (borland C) > > > and evaluates to 12 under cc (gcc) on FreeBSD. > > ahem, DOG should show 6 bytes. Yup, I missed this earlier. > since he apparently uses 16 bits in the bitfield, I can assume that to > be a short. > > thus: > > > struct C_OPEN { > > int a; > > int b; > > unsigned short xdt:1; /* note addition of short */ > > unsigned short reserved:15; /* note addition of short */ > > } __attribute__ ((packed)); > > should work. Nope, but closer again. Unless he's using a BCC option to default his 'int' type to 32 bits (which *would* explain the initial size being 10), he wants: struct C_OPEN { short a; short b; ... mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 17:12:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23526 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:12:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23519 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:12:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00713; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:38:21 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711030108.LAA00713@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Christoph Kukulies cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: still mmap and my driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 09:07:52 BST." <19971102090752.08503@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:38:21 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Sun, Nov 02, 1997 at 03:39:24PM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > Things are still weird with my driver ISA memory mapping. > > > I noticed that the space I need to map is 16386 bytes > > > from C8000 on. I changed isa_device id->id_msize to have 16386. > > > And I have an iosiz 0x4000 in my config file now. > > > > > > I still get a kernel panic, when I access 0xca000 in the driver. > > > > > > Did I still overlook anything? > > > > The details of the "panic". Was it really a panic? Do you perhaps > > mean that it was a page fault (probably good ol' trap 12)? > > Sure. I mean page fault because it cannot access 0xca000. > It happens during the driver probe phase in the portion of code > I wrote. It's quite obvious that it's because the page is not > available. This doesn't make a great deal of sense, unfortunately. If the correct window is being mapped for your driver, it should work. It sounds like the mapping isn't being done right. Source for your probe/attach available? mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 17:15:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23683 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:15:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23675 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00736; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:40:37 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711030110.LAA00736@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 7400 gates effected by probe routine In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 01 Nov 1997 23:29:56 -0800." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:40:37 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Not really, no, unless MODE reads != 0xff. The 8255 isn't what you'd > > describe as the most sophisticated bit of hardware. I'd still > > recommend looking at the driver as having to address the hardware on > > the other side of the card, rather than the card itself. > > I wish I had some hardware sophisticated enough for that! I just can't > see how you'd have anything that sophisticated unless you were > implementing some kind of bus with the thing, which for a card that > operates in MODE0 would be kinda cludgy, since MODE1 or 2? provides some > bi-directional features with port c as the status port. What I mean is that if your application has input signals, you can look for a typical configuration of those signals, or if your card is being used for output then you can remode the 8255 and write some sensible test values and read them back. This is only possible if you know what is connected to the card. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 18:12:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27309 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:12:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27203 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:12:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199711030212.SAA27203@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA066213098; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:11:38 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: the kernel API... To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:11:38 +1100 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Now I guess the question is, which API or include file is right ? /usr/include/machine/spl.h:122: conflicting types for `splbio' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:187: previous declaration of `splbio' /usr/include/machine/spl.h:123: conflicting types for `splclock' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:188: previous declaration of `splclock' /usr/include/machine/spl.h: In function `splclock': /usr/include/machine/spl.h:123: `HWI_MASK' undeclared (first use this function) /usr/include/machine/spl.h:123: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only onc e /usr/include/machine/spl.h:123: for each function it appears in.) /usr/include/machine/spl.h: At top level: /usr/include/machine/spl.h:124: conflicting types for `splhigh' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:189: previous declaration of `splhigh' /usr/include/machine/spl.h: In function `splhigh': /usr/include/machine/spl.h:124: `HWI_MASK' undeclared (first use this function) /usr/include/machine/spl.h: At top level: /usr/include/machine/spl.h:125: conflicting types for `splimp' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:190: previous declaration of `splimp' /usr/include/machine/spl.h:126: conflicting types for `splnet' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:191: previous declaration of `splnet' /usr/include/machine/spl.h: In function `splnet': /usr/include/machine/spl.h:126: `NHWI' undeclared (first use this function) /usr/include/machine/spl.h: At top level: /usr/include/machine/spl.h:127: conflicting types for `splsoftclock' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:199: previous declaration of `splsoftclock' /usr/include/machine/spl.h:128: conflicting types for `splsofttty' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:200: previous declaration of `splsofttty' /usr/include/machine/spl.h: In function `splsofttty': /usr/include/machine/spl.h:128: `NHWI' undeclared (first use this function) /usr/include/machine/spl.h: At top level: /usr/include/machine/spl.h:129: conflicting types for `splstatclock' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:201: previous declaration of `splstatclock' /usr/include/machine/spl.h:130: conflicting types for `spltty' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:202: previous declaration of `spltty' /usr/include/machine/spl.h:131: conflicting types for `splvm' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:203: previous declaration of `splvm' /usr/include/sys/systm.h:203: previous declaration of `splvm' /usr/include/machine/spl.h:135: warning: static declaration for `spl0' (from -current, I believe) Are you sure you guys aren't trying to turn FreeBSD into Linux ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 19:03:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29712 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trojanhorse.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29669 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:02:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by trojanhorse.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01300; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:02:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:02:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: Mike Smith cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DEor=F0ur?= Ivarsson , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 7400 gates effected by probe routine In-Reply-To: <199711030034.LAA00455@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There was one other thing with this board that I have thought about repeatedly. It has a jumper for tristated outputs, which would allow safe probing. However the way the tristate system works, it is either enabled or disabled for all outputs so when changing the mode of a port the outputs momentarily toggle to high impedance inputs, which defeats the purpose of having seperately controllable /dev/dio0? nodes. All in all I think it is just bad board design, nonetheless I think that anyone using one of these probably knows how it is set and doesn't need a probing routine. In other words the damn tristate bit shouldn't of been mapped over On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > I am not sure at the moment but I have been working with Rocwell 6522 > > PIA and I think it should be possible to probe 8255 in same manner as > > 6522, send byte to output ports and read back, if they are defined as > > output you should get the same back out from them. I think you can > > also with the control register. > > a) The 8255 defaults to all-ports-input at reset. > b) It is unacceptable to re-mode the 8255 and then write random garbage > into its output registers, as this may have undesirable or fatal > effects on attached hardware. > > > Do you have the 8255 datasheet ? it is available from Intel website > > I have (now) in front of me the Intel Peripheral Components databook. > This confirms that it is not possible to probe the 8255 in any useful > fashion without knowing what is connected on the other side. > > mike > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 19:31:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01417 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:31:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trojanhorse.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01404 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:31:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by trojanhorse.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01334; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:11:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:11:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: Mike Smith cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 7400 gates effected by probe routine In-Reply-To: <199711030110.LAA00736@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a hunh about detecting using the tristate feature, but I have to test some things. My point is that it doesn't need to be the most important thing in the kernel, but when a developer with these kinds of needs goes looking for some state driven inputs, they don't need to go through what I had to and they know what products are supported. Will sending you one change your mind? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 19:41:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01949 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from coal.nis.newscorp.com (mxa.newscorp.com [206.15.105.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01883 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:40:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@multivac.narcissus.net) Received: from multivac.narcissus.net (ts2port59.port.net [207.38.248.187]) by coal.nis.newscorp.com (News Corp SMTP GW 1.1) with SMTP id WAA25304; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by multivac.narcissus.net (NX5.67e/NX3.0S) id AA00422; Sun, 2 Nov 97 22:31:56 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:31:55 -0400 (GMT-0400) From: Snob Art Genre Reply-To: benedict@echonyc.com To: Mikael Karpberg Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recovering Lost Inode? In-Reply-To: <199710290207.DAA07672@ocean.campus.luth.se> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If we could attach debuggers to running processes like in Mach, this would be trivial, no? On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Mikael Karpberg wrote: > But, _if_ he had not killed the daemon, it would still be holding a > reference to the file. Maybe that could help, somehow? > > Is there in the case you know a program is holding a reference to a file, > but the file has no link from a directory, any possibility of doing > something like (after "kill -STOP" on the program, if it might terminate) > > syscall_saveme(procnum, the_procs_fd_for_the_file, "filename") > > as root to add a reference to the file referenced by a process? > > Or maybe something like > > syscall_copy_fds(procnum) > > that would allows a program get a copy of a running proc's filedescriptors > (like if it was forked from the proc). The second thing should allow for > reading it and copying it to a file, or possibly link it to a name, although > I can't think of a nice call to do that with, right now. > > If this is not possible right now, would it be hard to do, and does it > add any security holes? It seems it should, but I can't think of one. > > /Mikael > > > Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 19:46:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02256 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:46:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02251 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:46:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA18454; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:16:15 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971103141614.48001@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:16:14 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: benedict@echonyc.com Cc: Mikael Karpberg , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recovering Lost Inode? References: <199710290207.DAA07672@ocean.campus.luth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Snob Art Genre on Sun, Nov 02, 1997 at 10:31:55PM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Nov 02, 1997 at 10:31:55PM -0400, Snob Art Genre wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Mikael Karpberg wrote: > >> But, _if_ he had not killed the daemon, it would still be holding a >> reference to the file. Maybe that could help, somehow? >> >> Is there in the case you know a program is holding a reference to a file, >> but the file has no link from a directory, any possibility of doing >> something like (after "kill -STOP" on the program, if it might terminate) >> >> syscall_saveme(procnum, the_procs_fd_for_the_file, "filename") >> >> as root to add a reference to the file referenced by a process? >> >> Or maybe something like >> >> syscall_copy_fds(procnum) >> >> that would allows a program get a copy of a running proc's filedescriptors >> (like if it was forked from the proc). The second thing should allow for >> reading it and copying it to a file, or possibly link it to a name, although >> I can't think of a nice call to do that with, right now. >> >> If this is not possible right now, would it be hard to do, and does it >> add any security holes? It seems it should, but I can't think of one. > > If we could attach debuggers to running processes like in Mach, this would > be trivial, no? Well, I don't know if it would be trivial, and I don't know if it's like Mach, but sure we can attach debuggers to running processors: === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp3) /usr/ports/print/ghostscript4 135 -> gdb GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc. (gdb) attach 238 Attaching to process 238 0x202b7461 in ?? () (gdb) bt #0 0x202b7461 in ?? () #1 0x444e in ?? () #2 0x4517f in ?? () #3 0x499af in ?? () #4 0x44012 in ?? () #5 0x8d838 in ?? () #6 0x43be5 in ?? () #7 0x8d49a in ?? () #8 0x43bb0 in ?? () #9 0x437eb in ?? () #10 0x438e1 in ?? () #11 0x4282d in ?? () #12 0x1095 in ?? () (gdb) q The program is running. Quit anyway (and detach it)? (y or n) y Detaching from program: process 238 === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp3) /usr/ports/print/ghostscript4 136 -> Admittedly, it's a well-kept secret :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 19:49:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02430 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:49:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trojanhorse.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02422 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:49:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by trojanhorse.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00277 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:49:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:49:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" Reply-To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Invoking interuppt during isa probe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I would like to know how to do the following: I have a board which can operate in either interrupt driven mode, or polled mode, via an installed jumper. I would like to detect which mode during startup. I can force an interrupt to be generated by the unit during startup, however, what happens to interrupts for units before they have been attached? Is there some way to detect that an interrupt was generated by my actions? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 19:53:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02744 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:53:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from garman.dyn.ml.org (pm106-14.dialip.mich.net [192.195.231.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02728 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:53:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garman@earthling.net) Received: (qmail 1616 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Nov 1997 03:53:29 -0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:53:28 -0500 From: garman@phs.k12.ar.us To: pechter@lakewood.com Cc: pgilley@metronet.com (Phil Gilley), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Problem with ed driver in 2.2.5 References: <199711021319.IAA01603@i4got.lakewood.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.58 Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: garman@earthling.net X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Crescent (7% of Full) X-Operating-System: FreeBSD/i386 2.2-STABLE In-Reply-To: <199711021319.IAA01603@i4got.lakewood.com>; from Bill Pechter on Nov 2, 1997 08:19:50 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Pechter writes: > > No... I'm running the same age stuff... 486, SMC (well, this one has > a later ethernet...). I've even run the 8003's in this box up > through 2.0.5. > ed0: address 00:00:c0:42:cf:9d, type SMC8216/SMC8216C (16 bit) ) > just to add to this discussion... i have: ed0: address 00:00:c0:a2:2d:2d, type WD8013EP (16 bit) in my Cyrix 6x86/166 machine, with no troubles whatsoever (this is with 2.2-stable up to 2.2.5-stable supped last week or so) > I found I needed to drop the mtu to 1024 in 2.2. > haven't had to do anything like that myself-- it seems that the problem only appears with slower motherboards/machines? enjoy, -- Jason Garman http://garman.home.ml.org/ Student, University of Maryland garman@earthling.net "A friend in Campus Parking is a True Friend Indeed." -- me From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 20:12:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03788 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:12:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03781 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:12:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01362 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:39:08 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711030409.OAA01362@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: BIOS signature "$SUP" ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:39:08 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yesterday while I was rummaging around through the PnP tables in the BIOS on a board here I ran across what appears to be a new signature token, namely '$SUP'. Does anyone know what this is meant to be? mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 20:17:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04003 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:17:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from unix.tfs.net (root@unix.tfs.net [199.79.146.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03995 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@argus.tfs.net) Received: from argus.tfs.net (pm3-p12.tfs.net [206.154.183.204]) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03534 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:15:25 -0600 Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus.tfs.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA00714 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:16:49 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199711030416.WAA00714@argus.tfs.net> Subject: majordomo To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:16:48 -0600 (CST) Reply-to: jbryant@tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE #0: Wed Jul 9 01:01:24 CDT 1997 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk i have some questions concerning majordomo for the maintainer of the freebsd-* lists... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 20:40:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05384 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:40:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05333 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:39:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01466; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:06:07 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711030436.PAA01466@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: benedict@echonyc.com cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recovering Lost Inode? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 22:31:55 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 15:06:06 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If we could attach debuggers to running processes like in Mach, this would > be trivial, no? What do you mean "if"? mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 22:40:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10973 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:40:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gate.mgt.msk.ru (mgtrep.24h.dialup.ru [194.87.18.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10968 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:40:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tarkhil@mgt.msk.ru) Received: from asteroid.mgt.msk.ru (asteroid.mgt.msk.ru [192.168.133.145]) by gate.mgt.msk.ru (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10852; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:42:12 +0300 (MSK) Received: from asteroid.mgt.msk.ru (localhost.mgt.msk.ru [127.0.0.1]) by asteroid.mgt.msk.ru (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA19068; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:39:40 +0300 (MSK) Message-Id: <199711030639.JAA19068@asteroid.mgt.msk.ru> To: Brian Somers cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: tarkhil@mgt.msk.ru Subject: Re: Win 95 PPP faster than pppd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 00:55:13 GMT." <199711020055.AAA20342@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:39:40 +0300 From: "Alexander B. Povolotsky" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I recently did some quick tests on pppd under -current & 2.2.2. In > comparison, the older 2.2.2 pppd *sucks*. > > pppd 2.3.1 from -current either matched or out-performed user-ppp, > and both trod all over pppd from 2.2.2. Don't you know, can I merge pppd 2.3.1 with -stable? Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 2 22:44:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11164 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:44:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11154 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:44:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA07482; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:44:43 -0800 (PST) To: benedict@echonyc.com cc: Mikael Karpberg , Greg Lehey , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recovering Lost Inode? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 22:31:55 -0400." Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 22:44:42 -0800 Message-ID: <7479.878539482@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If we could attach debuggers to running processes like in Mach, this would > be trivial, no? Huh? You've never heard of gdb's attach command? RTFM! RTFM! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 00:33:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17291 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:33:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA17249 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:32:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA01464; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:32:46 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id HAA05365; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:48:38 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971103074838.HP19395@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:48:38 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Cc: gopu@global.com (Gopakumar H Pillai) Subject: Re: Help in data recovery References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Julian Elischer on Oct 29, 1997 15:15:07 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Julian Elischer wrote: > dd the entire drive as it stands now, onto a backup medium. > possibly the following might work: > dd if=/dev/rsd0 | gzip |dd of=/dev/rst0 The second dd command needs a `conv=sync', or it won't save the last compressed block. If your tape drive is larger than your sd0 drive, you might want to omit the gzip, while it does a great job in compressing, it's awfully slow so your tape will go start-stop. Also, the second gzip will do better with an `obs=16k', causing a variable-length recording tape drive (DAT, 8 mm, QIC >= 320 MB, DLT) to write larger blocks, thus being more effective. Note that you then need to specify `ibs=16k' then when reading the tape back. So, iff your tape capacity is larger than disk sd0: dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/rst0 bs=16k conv=sync If you need compression, the tool `team' (from the ports collection) will be a great help: dd if=/dev/rsd0 | gzip | team 1m 3 | dd of=/dev/rst0 obs=16k conv=sync (team tries the best to keep your tape streaming, this might save you an hour or two over the start-stop method.) > this will write on a 'plausible' disklabel. use fsck -b 32 /dev/rsd1a to > try get a backup superblock. if that doesn't work, you may need to find > where the next one is. (you should have gotten a list when you 'newfs'd > the drive in thes earlier step). Note that you can reproduce these numbers by re-running newfs on the filesystem in question, *but!* using the -N option. Except of the -N, you need to specify the very same parameters to newfs as you did when initially creating the filesystem. If you initially created the filesystem with sysinstall, it uses the options `-b 8192 -f 1024', so make this newfs -b 8192 -f 1024 -N /dev/rsd0s1e > (alternatively, > you could try: > fdisk -iu /dev/nrst0 Surely Julian didn't want you to run fdisk on a tape drive. :-) So just type `fdisk', and it will pick up the first disk for you. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 01:57:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA22172 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:57:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from omnix.net (root@omnix.net [194.183.217.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA22166; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:57:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from didier@omnix.net) Received: from localhost (didier@localhost.omnix.net [127.0.0.1]) by omnix.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04410; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:55:52 GMT Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:55:50 +0100 (CET) From: Didier Derny To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" cc: Ed Hudson , bugs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, elh@spnet.com Subject: Re: Operating system stability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > > > Are there any statistics to support the claim that FreeBSD is one of the > worlds most stable Operating Systems? > > > I'm still waiting for the support from interactive for a bug found in the kernel (about 4 years ago) I'm still waiting to get a working version of System 5 R4. the system I've received (and paid) was so buggy that I've never been able to use it. I finally received an offer for a free upgrade from my System 5 R4 to Solaris 2.3... (I've never been able to use it either) Now, I'm still waiting for the system I paid... I'm using freeBSD since the version 1.1. and I've never had any serious problem. -- Didier Derny didier@omnix.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 02:05:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA22586 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:05:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA22581 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:05:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23967; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:05:20 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA21994; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:05:19 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:05:19 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711031005.LAA21994@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Tom CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, perhaps@yes.no In-reply-to: Tom's message of Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:17:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) References: <199711022355.VAA00864@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > > ... > > But, how to allow users check only their own password, and still > > have the added security of shadow passwords ? I can only think > > in a kind of password checking daemon that would accept commands > > on a AF_UNIX socket and some patches to libc pw commands. > > You can always use the pwcheck daemon from the Cyrus module (see ports). > It opens a unix socket at /var/pwcheck/pwcheck. Permissions on the > /var/pwcheck directory can be used to determine who can check passwords. Is it restricted to only let a user check his own password? Or could we make it only check a users own password fairly easily? The simplest solution I can see is to create a /usr/bin/checkpw which takes in a username/password on stdin, and checks that the username has the same ID as the users real ID, and exits with OK/failure. (And I don't care about the expense of exec'ing a program to check a password - checking passwords are supposed to be expensive.) How is the feeling about this kind of program - too much bloat? Security problem? Personally, I want it - less security problem than making other programs setuid. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 06:01:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA03777 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:01:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA03770 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA03069; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:00:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:00:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DEor=F0ur?= Ivarsson , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 7400 gates effected by probe routine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > > Ah... Thanks, What your'e talking about a 7401 (open collector nor) or a > 7405 (open collector nand) (TTL Cookbook pg. 137), unfortunately I don't > have a choice with this > so I probably will just forget the probe routines. well, open collector have no issues with one "high" and one low, since open collector by design don't drive high, they just are open. There's no issue. Don't worry about it. use your probe routines. open collector was designed for wired-or. ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 06:19:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA04833 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:19:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA04825 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:19:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03701; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:12:11 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199711030212.VAA03701@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Strategy Routines In-Reply-To: <199711020252.NAA00521@word.smith.net.au> from Mike Smith at "Nov 2, 97 01:22:22 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:12:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This is a fault in the driver design. Drivers should not hog the > cpu, obviously. Try calling tsleep() out of the driver with a very > short timeout. "fault" is too strong for the era this driver was written - I was punting back to the user process for a feature I'm not using. The size of the transfer you want to permit will vary based on the application, speed of hardware, etc, and I figured most people using this would know what they were up to. But now that FBSD is in wide use on the internet it points out a possible DOS hole for those few systems actually using the LabPC. Plus the questions I get about the LabPC driver via e-mail indicate that some of our users now expect the OS to always do the right thing. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 06:53:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06783 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:53:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA06777 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:52:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA24127; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:52:39 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199711031452.JAA24127@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:52:37 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, perhaps@yes.no In-Reply-To: <199711031005.LAA21994@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Nov 3, 97 11:05:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Eivind Eklund had to walk into mine and say: > > > > On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > > > > ... > > > But, how to allow users check only their own password, and still > > > have the added security of shadow passwords ? I can only think > > > in a kind of password checking daemon that would accept commands > > > on a AF_UNIX socket and some patches to libc pw commands. > > > > You can always use the pwcheck daemon from the Cyrus module (see ports). > > It opens a unix socket at /var/pwcheck/pwcheck. Permissions on the > > /var/pwcheck directory can be used to determine who can check passwords. Gee, this sounds familiar. I wonder why that is. Could it be that I agonized over _exactly_ _this_ _problem_ for a couple of months and went stark raving bananas trying to find a solution before finally breaking down and resorting to a kernel hack to do it? Nah, couldn't be that. > Is it restricted to only let a user check his own password? Or could > we make it only check a users own password fairly easily? Take a close look at the SCM_CREDS stuff in -current. Right now, only a few RPC programs use it (keyserv, rpc.yppasswdd, passwd, chpass and src/lib/libc/rpc/clnt_unix.c) but it can be used for something like this. > The simplest solution I can see is to create a /usr/bin/checkpw which > takes in a username/password on stdin, and checks that the username > has the same ID as the users real ID, and exits with OK/failure. (And > I don't care about the expense of exec'ing a program to check a password > - checking passwords are supposed to be expensive.) You've just described the evil and bletcherous keyenvoy program, only without a set-uid bit. > How is the feeling about this kind of program - too much bloat? > Security problem? Personally, I want it - less security problem than > making other programs setuid. > > Eivind. The SCM_CREDS hack will work better. For those who don't know, SCM_CREDS is an additional type of ancillary data that you can transmit with sendmsg()/recvmsg() via an AF_UNIX socket. It's similar to SCM_RIGHTS which, in 4.4BSD, is used to transfer a file descriptor between processes. The idea is that the calling process does a sendmsg() with the SCM_CREDS flag set and an empty controll emssage buffer, and when the kernel sees this in unp_internalize(), it fills in the empty buffer with the sending process's credentials (UID, EUID, GID, other GIDS). When the receiving process does a recvmsg(), it gets a copy of the filled-in buffer and can use the credential info to determine the identity of the sending process and do access checks. If the sender does not set the SCM_CREDS flag when it transmits, the receiver can tell and refuse to do business with the sender. Keyserv uses this trick to learn the identity of the user talking to it so it can protect its secret keys: each user stores his own secret key with keyserv, and keyserv wants to make sure that can only get at his key and no one else's. Sun originally did this using a program called keyenvoy, which was set-uid root. Keyserv was set up to only accept requests from reserved ports on the loopback address. The key_call.c module in the RPC library would talk to keyserv by vfork()ing and exec()ing keyenvoy and passing it things on the command line. In the context of RPC, the performace hit sucked: any program doing lots of Secure RPC transactions (like NIS+) would crawl. In Solaris 2.x, Sun got rid of keyenvoy and switched to a different scheme involing STREAMS/TLI. Turns out there's a way in SysV to learn the identity of a process on the other side of a transport endpoint using t_getinfo(). This is all well and good for Sun, but we don't have STREAMS, nor are we likely to get it anytime soon, so I needed another solution when I adapted keyenvoy for FreeBSD. After much hair-pulling, I realized that the sockets API had nothing equivalent to t_getinfo(), hence I was forced to invent my own. Now, all that aside, you could use the SCM_CREDS hack and AF_UNIX sockets to create a 'password database access' daemon and fix it so that a user can see his own encrypted password and noone else's. But consider the following: - If the system uses this daemon for login authentication and the daemon crashes, noone will be able to log in. - You have to code it in such a way that it won't fall apart in the face of heavy (and possibly concurrent) access by clients. - Consider getpwent(3). You have to make the daemon be able to handle things like enumerating the passwd database, not just retrieving arbitrary records. This is starting to sound suspiciously like ypserv(8). -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness" ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 08:01:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10280 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:01:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from intercore.com (num1sun.intercore.com [199.181.243.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10263; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:01:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robin@intercore.com) Received: (robin@localhost) by intercore.com (8.7.1/8.6.4) id KAA17508; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:57:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971103105719.08747@num1sun.intercore.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:57:19 -0500 From: Robin Cutshaw To: Greg Skafte Cc: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Multiport Ethernet Cards References: <19971101005141.20155@worldgate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <19971101005141.20155@worldgate.com>; from Greg Skafte on Sat, Nov 01, 1997 at 12:51:41AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Nov 01, 1997 at 12:51:41AM -0700, Greg Skafte wrote: > > What are peoples experience with either the adaptec or the matrox > multiport nics. or is there another nic that is getting rave > reveiws, that I haven't mentioned. > I'm using the adaptec 4x10/100 card in a P75 firewall. It works very well. It's running FreeBSD 2.2.1 with Matt's driver patched in. robin -- ---- Robin Cutshaw internet: robin@interlabs.com robin@intercore.com Internet Labs, Inc. BellNet: 404-817-9787 robin@XFree86.Org "Time is just one damn thing after another" -- PBS/Nova ---- -- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 08:26:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11835 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:26:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11822 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22429; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:19:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:19:31 -0500 (EST) From: Snob Art Genre To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recovering Lost Inode? In-Reply-To: <199711030436.PAA01466@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > If we could attach debuggers to running processes like in Mach, this would > > be trivial, no? > > What do you mean "if"? Never mind! Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 09:41:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17499 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (root@piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se [129.16.234.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17493 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:41:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) Received: from hallgren.se (ip181056.student.gu.se [130.241.181.56]) by piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA25038 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:41:28 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <345E0C80.41C67EA6@mdstud.chalmers.se> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:40:16 +0100 From: Tommy Hallgren Organization: FreeBSD X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: IDE util Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I've made a small utility so one can set the spindown times on IDE drives. Works great for me. I hope this helps those who wishes to keep the drives quiet. I start it in autoexec.bat. I guess most people have this functionality in their BIOS's. Well, my old computer don't have it. :-/ Please take a look at the source, maybe I'm doing something wrong, I'm not an expert coding IDE hardware. regards, Tommy Hallgren(md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) /* * Program to set IDE drive spindown times. Made in November 1997 by Tommy * Hallgren(md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) * * Please note that the drive spins down immediately when this program is run. * * Do whatever you feel like with this sourcecode. */ #include #include #include #include "wdreg.h" /* /sys/i386/isa/wdreg.h */ #define WDCC_STANDBY_APD 0xe2 void wdwait(int base) { unsigned char status; status = inp(base + wd_status); while ((status & WDCS_BUSY) != 0) status = inp(base + wd_status); } void wdsetsleep(int base, int drive, int mins) { wdwait(base); printf("Setting sleep delay... "); outp(base + wd_seccnt, mins * 60 / 5); outp(base + wd_sdh, (drive & 1) << 4); outp(base + wd_command, WDCC_STANDBY_APD); wdwait(base); puts("ok"); } int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { int base, drive, mins; if (argc != 4) { printf("Usage: %s base drive minutes", argv[0]); puts(" base: Portbase. 0x1f0 primary, 0x170 secondary."); puts("drive: 0 or 1."); puts(" mins: delay in minutes."); return (1); } sscanf(argv[1], "%x", &base); sscanf(argv[2], "%d", &drive); sscanf(argv[3], "%d", &mins); wdsetsleep(base, drive, mins); return 0; } From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 10:11:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20548 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:11:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20543 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:11:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xSQuM-0005Nb-00; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:07:26 -0800 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:07:24 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Eivind Eklund cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-Reply-To: <199711031005.LAA21994@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > But, how to allow users check only their own password, and still > > > have the added security of shadow passwords ? I can only think > > > in a kind of password checking daemon that would accept commands > > > on a AF_UNIX socket and some patches to libc pw commands. > > > > You can always use the pwcheck daemon from the Cyrus module (see ports). > > It opens a unix socket at /var/pwcheck/pwcheck. Permissions on the > > /var/pwcheck directory can be used to determine who can check passwords. > > Is it restricted to only let a user check his own password? Or could > we make it only check a users own password fairly easily? How would that be useful? > The simplest solution I can see is to create a /usr/bin/checkpw which > takes in a username/password on stdin, and checks that the username > has the same ID as the users real ID, and exits with OK/failure. (And > I don't care about the expense of exec'ing a program to check a password > - checking passwords are supposed to be expensive.) I don't find this very useful. For example, lets say you want a web server to be able to verify passwords, but the web server is running as a "www" user, so it can't anything but its own password? The pwcheck daemon is a little more useful. It allows me to have fairly unprivledged servers check passwords. > How is the feeling about this kind of program - too much bloat? > Security problem? Personally, I want it - less security problem than > making other programs setuid. > > Eivind. Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 10:14:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20776 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20769 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:14:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00006; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:13:51 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA23244; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:13:49 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971103191349.30502@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:13:49 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Tom Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) References: <199711031005.LAA21994@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: ; from Tom on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 10:07:24AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 10:07:24AM -0800, Tom wrote: > On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > You can always use the pwcheck daemon from the Cyrus module (see ports). > > > It opens a unix socket at /var/pwcheck/pwcheck. Permissions on the > > > /var/pwcheck directory can be used to determine who can check passwords. > > > > Is it restricted to only let a user check his own password? Or could > > we make it only check a users own password fairly easily? > > How would that be useful? Security. If a user can check other people's passwords, he can brute-force passwords. If he can't, he can't. :-) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 10:31:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21942 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:31:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21937 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:31:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xSRFI-0005OQ-00; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:29:04 -0800 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:29:02 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Eivind Eklund cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-Reply-To: <19971103191349.30502@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > Is it restricted to only let a user check his own password? Or could > > > we make it only check a users own password fairly easily? > > > > How would that be useful? > > Security. If a user can check other people's passwords, he can > brute-force passwords. If he can't, he can't. :-) Who said that they could? The pwcheck daemon only allows specific users to check passwords. This is much better. In your scheme, only a process running as user xyz can check the password for xyz. However, how did the process get to run as xyz? Probably a root process doing a setuid(). The pwcheck scheme does not require _anything_ to run as root. See my web server example. Web servers typically run as a "www" user. Using pwcheck, I can allow the "www" to verify password. In your scheme, I would have to let the web server run as root, in order to setuid() to a user, and then check the password. > Eivind. Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 11:40:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27224 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:40:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.5.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27161 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:40:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15122; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:39:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd015089; Mon Nov 3 12:39:48 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA22218; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:39:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711031939.MAA22218@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BIOS information preservation (was Re: >64MB) To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:39:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711010406.OAA00828@word.smith.net.au> from "Mike Smith" at Nov 1, 97 02:36:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Anyone likely to complain if I add a new datastructure to i386/bios.c and > start populating it with stuff that various parts of the system glean > about the BIOS environment? Or should I be using a procedural lookup > interface for this? My preference would be for a generic mechanism for use in thunking any BIOS call to a VM86() for processing in that environment. There is a good "MindShare" book on Protected Mode System Architecture, actually... In any case, a mechanism similar to the SCO "vm86()" system call would be good (plus it would help with IBCS2 emulation). > * Terry, I believe you mentioned that some Microsoft Developer package > contained sources for the Word Viewer, or something similar. Would > there be any chance of crossing this with a Win32-on-unix environment > like that from Willows or Bristol to get a FreeBSD Word Viewer? I'm > sick beyond belief of having to find a copy of Word and 2-300 sheets > of paper just to read these banal "standard" documents. The VC++ code contains full source code for the "WordPad" program. Unfortunately, you need a Win32 (as you suggest) because there is a DLL involved in reading the Word Format documents. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 11:47:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27959 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:47:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27950 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:47:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22243; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:47:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd022236; Mon Nov 3 12:47:36 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA22785; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:47:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711031947.MAA22785@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: >64MB To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:47:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971031232621.007008f8@bugs.us.dell.com> from "Tony Overfield" at Oct 31, 97 11:26:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >It reports less because the BIOS lies. > > That's not right. I'd like to see your patches to make > the BIOS honest. > > FreeBSD simply makes the wrong BIOS call. The particular > BIOS call made by the boot loader is limited to 16 bits > worth of Kilobytes. That's what I said: the BIOS lies. > To make matters worse, the kernel > eventually ignores that answer in preference to the lower > 16 bits of the actual value stored in CMOS, which is never > better and often worse, as it truncates the most > significant bits. Only on machines that are anal about not indicating more than 16M even though the bits are there for 64M for conformance with some bogus, antiquated IBM AT hardware document. 8-|. The problem is that the BIOS call made in the boot code should not be in the boot code at all, not that we should increase the size of the boot code yet again by calling the "good" BIOS call (quoted because it exists only on newer hardware, not all hardware), and falling back to the ignored one if it's not there. The problem with increasing the boot code size "just a tiny bit" is that there is *truly* no room for it (the ELF capable boot blocks that can still boot an a.out kernel have about 12 bytes left). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 12:29:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00838 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:29:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00826 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:29:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23957; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:29:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971103152919.12038@crh.cl.msu.edu> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:29:19 -0500 From: Charles Henrich To: Don Lewis Cc: Matt Thomas , Jaye Mathisen , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: de0 errors References: <199710280046.QAA23849@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199710280046.QAA23849@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com>; from Don Lewis on Mon, Oct 27, 1997 at 04:46:03PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On the subject of Re: de0 errors, Don Lewis stated: > A PCI bus analyzer could be useful if the problem is what I think it is. > What processor and PCI chipset do you have? This is an ALR Revolution MP-Pro system w/ 1 200Mhz PPro, 256MB Ram, 4 SCSI Cards, a Video card, and a SMC Etherpower 10/100 Card. Its an Intel 440FX chipset.. > > Just using FTP between two hosts on the 100mbit net I see 2-3MB/sec and > > receive at about half that. > > That's not very impressive. To eliminate the influence of disk I/O, you > might want to test network throughput using ttcp or something similar. I'd > recommend using ping to check for packet loss at the same time. You > shouldn't see any packet loss if you're sending between two machines on the > same network segment. > Humm, tcpblast shows 4.0MB/sec. Granted this isnt an empty net either, fairly busy I would imagine. -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 12:32:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01120 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:32:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from roguetrader.com (brandon@cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01100 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:32:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandon@roguetrader.com) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by roguetrader.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA23727 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:32:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:32:28 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: /etc/*.conf file for daily/weekly/security etc maintenance Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just curious, why dont we create a .conf file in /etc like the rc.conf, but for daily maintenance--allow people to easilly enable/disable options without having to get in and make lots of changes to the daily/weekly/monthly/security/whatnot files? I've been doing this sortof thing with my own changes, where the config file is /etc/janitor.conf, in the same format as /etc/rc.conf (but for periodic janitorial/maintenance items). If there is interest, I could make the changes to the files which would use it, to be optional/configurable. -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 12:55:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02834 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:55:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02818 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:55:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09155; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:52:51 -0200 (EDT) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199711032052.SAA09155@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-Reply-To: <199711031452.JAA24127@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from Bill Paul at "Nov 3, 97 09:52:37 am" To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:52:51 -0200 (EDT) Cc: perhaps@yes.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(Bill Paul) // Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Eivind Eklund // had to walk into mine and say: // // > > On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: // > > ... // > > > But, how to allow users check only their own password, and still // > > > have the added security of shadow passwords ? I can only think // > > > in a kind of password checking daemon that would accept commands // > > > on a AF_UNIX socket and some patches to libc pw commands. // > > // > > You can always use the pwcheck daemon from the Cyrus module (see ports). // > > It opens a unix socket at /var/pwcheck/pwcheck. Permissions on the // > > /var/pwcheck directory can be used to determine who can check passwords. ... // The SCM_CREDS hack will work better. For those who don't know, SCM_CREDS // is an additional type of ancillary data that you can transmit with // sendmsg()/recvmsg() via an AF_UNIX socket. It's similar to SCM_RIGHTS // which, in 4.4BSD, is used to transfer a file descriptor between processes. // The idea is that the calling process does a sendmsg() with the SCM_CREDS // flag set and an empty controll emssage buffer, and when the kernel sees // this in unp_internalize(), it fills in the empty buffer with the sending // process's credentials (UID, EUID, GID, other GIDS). When the receiving // process does a recvmsg(), it gets a copy of the filled-in buffer and // can use the credential info to determine the identity of the sending // process and do access checks. If the sender does not set the SCM_CREDS flag // when it transmits, the receiver can tell and refuse to do business with // the sender. Humm... This needs some change from the sender point of view, right ? Maybe it could be more useful if it messed only with the receiver side. Is it possible ? Probably not, for datagram stuff. // Now, all that aside, you could use the SCM_CREDS hack and AF_UNIX sockets // to create a 'password database access' daemon and fix it so that a user // can see his own encrypted password and noone else's. But consider the // following: // // - If the system uses this daemon for login authentication and the daemon // crashes, noone will be able to log in. I thought about that. Just make the program use this as an option, and not the default behavior. Maybe, even, not automatic. // - You have to code it in such a way that it won't fall apart in the face // of heavy (and possibly concurrent) access by clients. Sure. To make a head start, maybe a very simple forking connection daemon could work. Multithreading is always an option, of course. // - Consider getpwent(3). You have to make the daemon be able to handle // things like enumerating the passwd database, not just retrieving // arbitrary records. Could you please elaborate on this ? // This is starting to sound suspiciously like ypserv(8). Like every server daemon... I just thought about inetd. Do we have something similar for AF_UNIX sockets ? I have a question. What's the better approach for this ? A /etc/master.passwd window daemon, which allows users to read their own record, or just a username/password verify daemon ? In the first case, it can be embedded in libc and apps will not notice the difference. "Hey, why all passwords are '*' except mine ?" In the second case, apps should be modified, but it also allows for other kinds of auth systems. (Argh, this stinks like PAM). Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 13:01:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03283 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:01:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from isbalham.ist.co.uk (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03268 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:01:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham.ist.co.uk (8.8.4/8.8.4) with UUCP id UAA08942; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:49:52 GMT Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:42:43 GMT X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711031939.MAA22218@usr09.primenet.com> References: <199711010406.OAA00828@word.smith.net.au> from "Mike Smith" at Nov 1, 97 02:36:34 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:42:11 +0000 To: Terry Lambert From: Bob Bishop Subject: Re: BIOS information preservation (was Re: >64MB) Cc: jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 7:39 pm +0000 3/11/97, Terry Lambert wrote: >[...] >The VC++ code contains full source code for the "WordPad" program. > >Unfortunately, you need a Win32 (as you suggest) because there is a DLL >involved in reading the Word Format documents. Or enough harness to make the DLL work (just a thought, I haven't investigated). -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 13:03:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03373 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03353 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:02:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09231; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:02:05 -0200 (EDT) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199711032102.TAA09231@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-Reply-To: from Tom at "Nov 3, 97 10:07:24 am" To: tom@sdf.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:02:05 -0200 (EDT) Cc: perhaps@yes.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(Tom) // > Is it restricted to only let a user check his own password? Or could // > we make it only check a users own password fairly easily? // // How would that be useful? A lot. You just have not seen the aplication yet... Think in xlock, for the most obvious example. // I don't find this very useful. For example, lets say you want a web // server to be able to verify passwords, but the web server is running as a // "www" user, so it can't anything but its own password? The pwcheck daemon // is a little more useful. It allows me to have fairly unprivledged servers // check passwords. Then what you want is to disable shadow passwords at all ? Or, maybe, that a GROUP of uids could see every other password. It is a way of thinking, and may be useful too. But what do you want to do with other people password without root privs ? "Hey, I know you are who you say you are, but I can do nothing for you. I'm just nobody, sorry". Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 13:03:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03449 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:03:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from bytetech.com (bytetech.com [204.186.19.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03417; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from todd@bytetech.com) Received: from localhost (todd@localhost) by bytetech.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA03167; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:03:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:03:41 -0500 (EST) From: Todd E Ehrhart To: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-security-notifications@freebsd.org, freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk subscribe From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 13:38:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06423 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:38:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [195.1.171.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06417 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:38:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) From: sthaug@nethelp.no Received: (qmail 3835 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Nov 1997 21:38:24 +0000 (GMT) To: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu Cc: Don.Lewis@tsc.tdk.com, matt@3am-software.com, mrcpu@cdsnet.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: de0 errors In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:29:19 -0500" References: <19971103152919.12038@crh.cl.msu.edu> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.28.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 22:38:24 +0100 Message-ID: <3833.878593104@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > That's not very impressive. To eliminate the influence of disk I/O, you > > might want to test network throughput using ttcp or something similar. I'd > > recommend using ping to check for packet loss at the same time. You > > shouldn't see any packet loss if you're sending between two machines on the > > same network segment. > > > > Humm, tcpblast shows 4.0MB/sec. Granted this isnt an empty net either, > fairly busy I would imagine. Try connecting two systems with a crossover cable, and run ttcp. FreeBSD on a PPro-200 can *easily* saturate a 100 Mbps Ethernet segment. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 14:33:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09666 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09661 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:33:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA03100 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:33:04 -0800 (PST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:33:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Unless there are any truly serious objections, I'm going to starting campaigning vigorously in core for the complete removal of this rather useless collection of games which has gotten us in trouble not once but now TWICE upon receipt of a letter from Hasbro's legal council stating that we are violating the trademark on "Boggle", a Hasbro game. It looks like the folks at UCB who originally put this collection together were as ignorant as it's possible to get about trademarks, and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before another game from this collection joins the ranks of tetris and boggle as "things which screw up our CVS tree when we're forced to remove all traces of the damn things." Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be moved). Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 14:55:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10714 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:55:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10709 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:55:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11806; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:55:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:55:49 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). Agreed, I hate having to install /usr/src/games just to install fortune, a port would be much more pleasant, and easier to track that it was done, thanks to /var/db/pkg From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 14:58:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10840 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10822 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:57:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA24611; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:56:38 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199711032256.RAA24611@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) To: jonny@coppe.ufrj.br (Joao Carlos Mendes Luis) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:56:35 -0500 (EST) Cc: perhaps@yes.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711032052.SAA09155@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> from "Joao Carlos Mendes Luis" at Nov 3, 97 06:52:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis had to walk into mine and say: [...] > // The SCM_CREDS hack will work better. For those who don't know, SCM_CREDS > // is an additional type of ancillary data that you can transmit with > // sendmsg()/recvmsg() via an AF_UNIX socket. It's similar to SCM_RIGHTS > // which, in 4.4BSD, is used to transfer a file descriptor between processes. > // The idea is that the calling process does a sendmsg() with the SCM_CREDS > // flag set and an empty controll emssage buffer, and when the kernel sees > // this in unp_internalize(), it fills in the empty buffer with the sending > // process's credentials (UID, EUID, GID, other GIDS). When the receiving > // process does a recvmsg(), it gets a copy of the filled-in buffer and > // can use the credential info to determine the identity of the sending > // process and do access checks. If the sender does not set the SCM_CREDS flag > // when it transmits, the receiver can tell and refuse to do business with > // the sender. > > Humm... This needs some change from the sender point of view, right ? > Maybe it could be more useful if it messed only with the receiver side. > Is it possible ? Probably not, for datagram stuff. Both the sender and the receiver have to cooperate a bit. The sender must use sendmsg() and the receiver must use recvmsg(). But the receiver is able to enforce the use of credentials: a sender can use send() or write() or whatever, but in this case the receiver will not get any ancillary data and the cmsg_type flag will not be set. The receiver then knows that there aren't any creds to look at so it can return an error to the sender and ignore the unauthenticated message. > // Now, all that aside, you could use the SCM_CREDS hack and AF_UNIX sockets > // to create a 'password database access' daemon and fix it so that a user > // can see his own encrypted password and noone else's. But consider the > // following: > // > // - If the system uses this daemon for login authentication and the daemon > // crashes, noone will be able to log in. > > I thought about that. Just make the program use this as an option, and > not the default behavior. Maybe, even, not automatic. You would have to fall back to the directly reading the password database. The problem is that this checking to see which method to use incurrs overhead, which is something you'd like to avoid. > // - You have to code it in such a way that it won't fall apart in the face > // of heavy (and possibly concurrent) access by clients. > > Sure. To make a head start, maybe a very simple forking connection > daemon could work. What if I'm a mean widdle user and I write a program to constantly bombard the 'passwd database daemon' with requests? You have to be careful: this could make the daemon fork() all over the place and eat up system resources. I 'fixed' ypserv so that it can only have a certain number of children going at any one time; if you try to go over the limit, the request fails. (Ypserv only fork()s for YPPROC_ALL requests at this point; the only command that uses the YPPROC_ALL service is ypcat, so it's a reasonable tradeoff.) > Multithreading is always an option, of course. Only if you're into that sort of kinky stuff. > // - Consider getpwent(3). You have to make the daemon be able to handle > // things like enumerating the passwd database, not just retrieving > // arbitrary records. > > Could you please elaborate on this ? I can do pw = getpwnam("wpaul") to retrieve just my record from the passwd database, or I can do: while((pw = getpwent()) != NULL) { if (strcmp(pw->pw_name, "wpaul")) continue; } In the latter case, we start from the 'top' of the database and read every record until we find the one we want. The former case is just a matter of matching a key in the database: you find the record that goes with the key and return it. The latter case is more disgusting: it's not a problem if you're reading from a file or database directly, but when reading from a remote process, it's tough to handle such an 'enumeration' request. It's even thougher if you have several of them going at once: the server has to juggle multiple clients and send each one the right records in the right order. Ypserv handles this in two different ways: for YPPROC_ALL, you're stuffing all the records into a single TCP connection. When you're done, the connection goes away. Because of the strange way this is done with RPC, ypserv fork()s a child process to handle this (this is largely to avoid having the parent block for too long). The other case is a YPPROC_FIRST followed by a series of YPPROC_NEXTs. The NIS support in getpwent.c uses this approach over YPPROC_ALL because YPPROC_FIRST and YPPROC_NEXT are supposed to be idempotent. YPPROC_FIRST is easy to implement in the server. YPPROC_NEXT is hard: the Berkeley DB hash method doesn't implement the 'set cursor location' function (the btree method does). Ypserv does some database handle caching in order to get around this. > // This is starting to sound suspiciously like ypserv(8). > > Like every server daemon... I just thought about inetd. As another example, Solaris has this beast called the Name Service Cache Daemon (/usr/sbin/nscd) which is actually tied in to a great many libc lookup routines, including getpwent(3) and friends. If you use NIS or NIS+, nscd will cache lookups from those services on the local host. Getting the time to live for everything set correctly can be tricky though. Also, nscd uses a special kind of IPC mechanism called doors (not sockets or pipes, but doors). > Do we have something similar for AF_UNIX sockets ? I have made it ridiculously easy to make RPC client/server programs that use AF_UNIX sockets in -current. :) For an example, see keyserv. > I have a question. What's the better approach for this ? > A /etc/master.passwd window daemon, which allows users to > read their own record, or just a username/password verify > daemon ? > In the first case, it can be embedded in libc and apps > will not notice the difference. "Hey, why all passwords > are '*' except mine ?" In the second case, apps should > be modified, but it also allows for other kinds of auth > systems. (Argh, this stinks like PAM). VMS gets by with allowing unprivileged users to see only their password information in the SYSUAF.DAT database. (I'm not entirely sure how this is done: I vaguely remember that there were some library routines for doing authentication checks and that the SYSUAF.DAT file was not readable by normal users. You could only perform authentication checks using the library interface.) I'm not sure how VMS http servers deal with this restriction; perhaps they INSTALL the web server image with a particular privilege bit set that lets it do authentication for any user. In any case, there are arguments for both. The former method is, as you say, more compatible with existing code. The latter allows you isolate the use of the crypt(3) function to a single process, which is handy since it means you'd never have to worry about linking new programs with -lcrypt ever again. I took this approach with _des_crypt() in Secure RPC: keyserv is the only program that actually calls the libdes library; everyone else just calls keyserv. Maybe you could have a server that does both. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness" ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 15:09:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11660 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:09:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11652 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:08:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11969; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:08:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:08:29 -0500 (EST) From: Snob Art Genre To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If you delete /usr/src/games/fortune, I'm going to load Linux on my machine. On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Unless there are any truly serious objections, I'm going to starting > campaigning vigorously in core for the complete removal of this rather > useless collection of games which has gotten us in trouble not once > but now TWICE upon receipt of a letter from Hasbro's legal council > stating that we are violating the trademark on "Boggle", a Hasbro > game. > > It looks like the folks at UCB who originally put this collection > together were as ignorant as it's possible to get about trademarks, > and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before another game from this > collection joins the ranks of tetris and boggle as "things which screw > up our CVS tree when we're forced to remove all traces of the damn > things." > > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). > > Jordan > Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 15:41:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13804 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:41:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13799 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03648; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:40:57 -0800 (PST) To: Snob Art Genre cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:08:29 EST." Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 15:40:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3644.878600457@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If you delete /usr/src/games/fortune, I'm going to load Linux on my > machine. Is that a promise? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 15:56:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14548 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14539 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:56:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@Kithrup.COM) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id PAA07369; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:55:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:55:58 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199711032355.PAA07369@kithrup.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-Reply-To: <199711032102.TAA09231.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> References: from Tom at "Nov 3, 97 10:07:24 am" Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199711032102.TAA09231.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> you write: >Or, maybe, that a GROUP of uids could see every other password. >It is a way of thinking, and may be useful too. The proper way to do this is with Kerberos. *duck* Okay, but kerberos does provide a usable model, and it's already in the system. It doesn't let you see the encrypted password, but it does let you check to see whether a password matches. (And it doesn't send the password out in clear-text over the wire, either.) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 16:17:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15922 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:17:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from eddie.mit.edu (EDDIE.MIT.EDU [18.62.0.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15915 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:17:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdk@ccomp.inode.COM) Received: from ccomp.inode.com by eddie.mit.edu id aa07352; 3 Nov 97 19:11 EST Received: (from gdk@localhost) by ccomp.inode.com (8.6.9/1.5) id TAA08962; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:09:13 -0500 From: Gary Kendall Message-Id: <199711040009.TAA08962@ccomp.inode.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:09:12 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.ORG In-Reply-To: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 3, 97 02:33:04 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It wasn't too long ago that Jordan K. Hubbard said: > Unless there are any truly serious objections, I'm going to starting > campaigning vigorously in core for the complete removal of this rather > useless collection of games which has gotten us in trouble not once > but now TWICE upon receipt of a letter from Hasbro's legal council > stating that we are violating the trademark on "Boggle", a Hasbro > game. > > It looks like the folks at UCB who originally put this collection > together were as ignorant as it's possible to get about trademarks, > and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before another game from this > collection joins the ranks of tetris and boggle as "things which screw > up our CVS tree when we're forced to remove all traces of the damn > things." > > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). > > Jordan > I can understand how mixing high-priced corporate lawyers with public-domain source code can drive you beyond frustration into the Great Beyond, but scrapping all of the games seems a bit ham handed. Why not send any questionable source code to the corporations in question, and let them make all of thier objections at once? And I'm not sure it's necessary to remove all traces of the game, just all traces of the trademarked word or phrase. Illegitimati non carborundum. Regards, Gary Kendall %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% % The difficult is done immediately, the impossible takes a little longer. % %----------------------------------------------------------------------------% % gdk@ccomp.inode.com or gkendall@eddie.mit.edu % %----------------------------------------------------------------------------% % Creative Computing * 96 Forest Street * Danvers, MA 01923 * 978-777-3784 % %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 16:20:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16186 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:20:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (root@gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com [207.113.159.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16179 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:20:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdonl@tsc.tdk.com) Received: from sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (root@sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.191]) by gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA17506; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.194]) by sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23690; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10230; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:19:48 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199711040019.QAA10230@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:19:48 -0800 In-Reply-To: Bill Paul "Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources)" (Nov 3, 9:52am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Bill Paul , perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 3, 9:52am, Bill Paul wrote: } Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - I } The SCM_CREDS hack will work better. For those who don't know, SCM_CREDS } is an additional type of ancillary data that you can transmit with } sendmsg()/recvmsg() via an AF_UNIX socket. It's similar to SCM_RIGHTS } which, in 4.4BSD, is used to transfer a file descriptor between processes. } The idea is that the calling process does a sendmsg() with the SCM_CREDS } flag set and an empty controll emssage buffer, and when the kernel sees } this in unp_internalize(), it fills in the empty buffer with the sending } process's credentials (UID, EUID, GID, other GIDS). When the receiving } process does a recvmsg(), it gets a copy of the filled-in buffer and } can use the credential info to determine the identity of the sending } process and do access checks. If the sender does not set the SCM_CREDS flag } when it transmits, the receiver can tell and refuse to do business with } the sender. I think this would be an interesting way to implement rcmd(). You send the daemon the various rcmd() arguments, then it gets your credentials using SCM_CREDS, authenticates you with the remote host, and then passes back the fd() for the connected socket(s) using SCM_RIGHTS. This would eliminate the need for rsh and rlogin to be setuid root. The only problem that I see is that if the remote host does an ident check it will get the wrong information (from the daemon). I suppose the daemon could fork and setuid() before doing the connect. --- Truck From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 16:28:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16497 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:28:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (root@gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com [207.113.159.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16492 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:27:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdonl@tsc.tdk.com) Received: from sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (root@sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.191]) by gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA17616; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.194]) by sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23859; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10243; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:27:29 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199711040027.QAA10243@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:27:29 -0800 In-Reply-To: Charles Henrich "Re: de0 errors" (Nov 3, 3:29pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Charles Henrich , Don Lewis Subject: Re: de0 errors Cc: Matt Thomas , Jaye Mathisen , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 3, 3:29pm, Charles Henrich wrote: } Subject: Re: de0 errors } On the subject of Re: de0 errors, Don Lewis stated: } } > A PCI bus analyzer could be useful if the problem is what I think it is. } > What processor and PCI chipset do you have? } } This is an ALR Revolution MP-Pro system w/ 1 200Mhz PPro, 256MB Ram, 4 SCSI } Cards, a Video card, and a SMC Etherpower 10/100 Card. Its an Intel 440FX } chipset.. Bingo! I believe that a 21140 based NIC is bad juju in a system with a 440FX based system because the 21140 can only do plain PCI memory reads (MR) and you really need to use PCI read multiple commands (MRM) to get decent throughput with this chipset, and probably any other Pentium Pro or Pentium II chipset. A 21140A based NIC should work much better since it can use the MRM command. } > > Just using FTP between two hosts on the 100mbit net I see 2-3MB/sec and } > > receive at about half that. } > } > That's not very impressive. To eliminate the influence of disk I/O, you } > might want to test network throughput using ttcp or something similar. I'd } > recommend using ping to check for packet loss at the same time. You } > shouldn't see any packet loss if you're sending between two machines on the } > same network segment. } > } } Humm, tcpblast shows 4.0MB/sec. Granted this isnt an empty net either, fairly } busy I would imagine. That's probably a reasonable number for a 10Mb network, but not a 100Mb network. BTW, I bet this NIC is also hurting your disk I/O throughput since it is hogging the PCI bus because it's using an inefficient transfer method. --- Truck From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 16:52:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18170 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:52:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from pendor.McKusick.COM (root@pendor.bayarea.net [205.219.85.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18139 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:51:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benco@pendor.McKusick.COM) Received: from localhost (benco@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pendor.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA05985; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:51:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711040051.QAA05985@pendor.McKusick.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: pendor.McKusick.COM: benco@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:33:04 PST." <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 16:51:28 -0800 From: Ben Cottrell Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). I'm not in front of my freebsd box at the moment, but an ls of /usr/games on a NetBSD system produces: adventure caesar fortune morse rain teachgammon arithmetic canfield gomoku number random tetris atc cfscores hack phantasia robots trek backgammon chess hangman pig rogue wargames banner cribbage hide pom rot13 worm battlestar dm larn ppt sail worms bcd factor mille primes snake wump boggle fish monop quiz snscore I'd suggest keeping at least factor, caesar, and primes; I would be very sorry to lose the ability to factor file sizes to arrive at block sizes to give to dd(1), just to take an example. And caesar is just a cool program. Some of the others, like bcd, morse, ppt, banner, pom, number, pig, random, worms, and rain are fairly useless, but still quite nice to have around the source tree, and I doubt anyone could complain about their legality. ~Ben From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 16:55:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18503 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:55:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18494 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:55:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA22837; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:24:09 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971104112409.54867@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:24:09 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Gary Kendall Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> <199711040009.TAA08962@ccomp.inode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199711040009.TAA08962@ccomp.inode.com>; from Gary Kendall on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 07:09:12PM -0500 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 07:09:12PM -0500, Gary Kendall wrote: > It wasn't too long ago that Jordan K. Hubbard said: >> Unless there are any truly serious objections, I'm going to starting >> campaigning vigorously in core for the complete removal of this rather >> useless collection of games which has gotten us in trouble not once >> but now TWICE upon receipt of a letter from Hasbro's legal council >> stating that we are violating the trademark on "Boggle", a Hasbro >> game. >> >> It looks like the folks at UCB who originally put this collection >> together were as ignorant as it's possible to get about trademarks, >> and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before another game from this >> collection joins the ranks of tetris and boggle as "things which screw >> up our CVS tree when we're forced to remove all traces of the damn >> things." >> >> Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and >> probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong >> need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop >> distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, >> arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be >> moved). > > I can understand how mixing high-priced corporate lawyers with > public-domain source code can drive you beyond frustration into > the Great Beyond, but scrapping all of the games seems a bit ham > handed. Why not send any questionable source code to the > corporations in question, and let them make all of thier > objections at once? How do you know which corporations are in question? > And I'm not sure it's necessary to remove all traces of the > game, just all traces of the trademarked word or phrase. It doesn't seem to be as simple as that. At least, it wasn't with T*tr*s. I think it would be a pity to get rid of them altogether. Can't somebody in some country that isn't too worried about US litigation (sorry, excludes Australia) put them up on a machine, and we just point to them? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:01:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19037 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19032; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:01:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA22874; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:31:11 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971104113110.52901@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:31:10 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Charles Mott Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Maximum number of forked processes References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Mott on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 04:16:36PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Follow-up-to: hackers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 04:16:36PM -0700, Charles Mott wrote: > How does one control the maximum number of forked processes from within > the parent process? I suppose the answer is "manually". setrlimit(2) allows you to limit the number of processes (=forks) per user, but I don't know of anything that would limit the number of children of a process. > Since this is an elementary question but regards programming, I was > uncertain whether to send it to -questions or -hackers. In fact, I'd think that this is worthy of -hackers, so I'm following up there. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:11:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20042 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:11:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sendero-ppp.i-connect.net (sendero-ppp.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20027 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:11:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-ppp.i-connect.net) Received: (qmail 22545 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Nov 1997 01:10:56 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2-beta-103097 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:10:56 -0800 (PST) Organization: Atlas Telecom From: Simon Shapiro To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: RE: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Jordan K. Hubbard; On 03-Nov-97 you wrote: I am all the way behind you. > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). AFAIAC, throw fortune with the rest... --- If Microsoft Built Cars: Every time they repainted the lines on the road, you'd have to buy a new car. Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Atlas Telecom Senior Architect 14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005 Shimon@i-Connect.Net Voice: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:14:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20255 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:14:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20249 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:14:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA06861 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:41:59 GMT Message-Id: <199711032241.WAA06861@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: ppp & pppctl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 22:41:59 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Recently, I made some rather gratuitous changes to security in user-ppp. Some were "for" the changes, and some were "against". Lots was said - which I suspect means that it's something that should really be more configurable. At the moment it works like this: 1. Only uid 0 can run ppp without the -direct flag. 2. Only uid 0 or group ``network'' can run ppp with the -direct flag, but some uid 0 things are allowed (ppp has perms 4550). 3. A socket is created on AF_INET:3000 by default with the following ``properties'': 1. You *must* set a password in /etc/ppp/ppp.secrets 2. You *may* set an empty password (not documented), but even if it's empty, you must still type ``passwd'' at the ppp prompt after connecting. 3. You may disable the socket or make it an AF_UNIX socket. 4. You can *always* -USR1 ppp to re-open the socket on AF_INET:3000+tunno. 4. Pppctl can send commands to ppp from the command line and has a -p option to specify the password. I suggest the following model: 1. The command "set users user-list" is introduced where user-list is a list of user names. The default is empty. If users are included in this list (or if your uid is 0), they may run ppp without the -direct flag. The check is done *after* the ppp section is loaded (and may be part of the default label). 2. The command "set modes mode-list" is introduced where mode-list is a list of allowable modes from "auto", "background", "ddial", "direct", "interactive" and "all". This command augments ``1.'' as the super-user may set up profiles that may not be altered. The default is "all modes". 3. Permissions stay the same. You've gotta be group network to have a chance of running ppp at all. This means that the default is root only 'cos of file system permissions. 4. No socket is created by default. 1. You *must* set a password in /etc/ppp/ppp.secrets or on the "set server" command line: set server|socket TcpPort|LocalName|none [passwd] [mask] 2. If you specify an empty password, you don't need to use the ``passwd'' command. 3. You can *always* -USR1 ppp to re-open the socket on AF_INET:3000+tunno. 5. Pppctl can already handle the ppp prompt when it doesn't want a password (ppp doesn't prompt or require the -p option). 6. Pppctl will have an ``interactive'' mode, taking away ``telnet''s attraction. 7. $HOME/.ppp.* are removed. The "!include" command is added instead, which understands ``~'' and environment variables. Any thoughts or suggestions ? -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:15:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20327 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:15:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20314 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06717; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:26:00 GMT Message-Id: <199711032126.VAA06717@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: tarkhil@mgt.msk.ru cc: Brian Somers , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Win 95 PPP faster than pppd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:39:40 +0300." <199711030639.JAA19068@asteroid.mgt.msk.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:26:00 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I recently did some quick tests on pppd under -current & 2.2.2. In > > comparison, the older 2.2.2 pppd *sucks*. > > > > pppd 2.3.1 from -current either matched or out-performed user-ppp, > > and both trod all over pppd from 2.2.2. > Don't you know, can I merge pppd 2.3.1 with -stable? It may not be that easy. There are kernel mods that need to be done. You could examine the commit logs to see what peter needed to do to upgrade -current.... Your best bet may be to ask Peter if he plans to merge it back into 2.2, but I suspect the answer will be no. Try ppp :-) > Alex -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:15:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20348 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:15:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sendero-ppp.i-connect.net (sendero-ppp.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20333 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:15:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-ppp.i-connect.net) Received: (qmail 1340 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Nov 1997 01:15:56 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2-beta-103097 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199711040027.QAA10243@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:15:56 -0800 (PST) Organization: Atlas Telecom From: Simon Shapiro To: Don Lewis Subject: Re: de0 errors Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Jaye Mathisen , Matt Thomas , Charles Henrich Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Don Lewis; On 04-Nov-97 you wrote: ... > } Humm, tcpblast shows 4.0MB/sec. Granted this isnt an empty net > either, fairly > } busy I would imagine. > > That's probably a reasonable number for a 10Mb network, but not a > 100Mb network. BTW, I bet this NIC is also hurting your disk I/O > throughput since it is hogging the PCI bus because it's using an > inefficient transfer method. I must be missing something. 4MB/sec. on TCP/IP over Ethernet is on a good day, more than 40MHz. No? --- If Microsoft Built Cars: Every time they repainted the lines on the road, you'd have to buy a new car. Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Atlas Telecom Senior Architect 14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005 Shimon@i-Connect.Net Voice: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:18:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20761 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:18:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from unix.tfs.net (root@unix.tfs.net [199.79.146.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20749 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:18:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@argus.tfs.net) Received: from argus.tfs.net (as1-p26.tfs.net [139.146.205.26]) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05806; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:17:12 -0600 Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus.tfs.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA03476; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:18:38 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199711040118.TAA03476@argus.tfs.net> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <199711040009.TAA08962@ccomp.inode.com> from Gary Kendall at "Nov 3, 97 07:09:12 pm" To: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM (Gary Kendall) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:18:37 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-to: jbryant@tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE #0: Wed Jul 9 01:01:24 CDT 1997 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > It wasn't too long ago that Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > Unless there are any truly serious objections, I'm going to starting > > campaigning vigorously in core for the complete removal of this rather > > useless collection of games which has gotten us in trouble not once > > but now TWICE upon receipt of a letter from Hasbro's legal council > > stating that we are violating the trademark on "Boggle", a Hasbro > > game. well, how about these suggestions: Point out EVERY MS-DOG/WINBLOWZ version to these corporations, and tell them to go for the real numbers... Ask them to write a FreeBSD version. Failing this, cite the fact that since they fail to support the market, they thus have abandoned it. All after that is fair play. Also point out that they have had how long to complain? How long has boggle been part of BSD? Ignorance is not an excuse for them either, especially if a profit is not being made. Also point out that Boggle is not that high priority item apparently, as they fail to include it on their homepage. > > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > > moved). > > > > Jordan i play them occasionally... > I can understand how mixing high-priced corporate lawyers with > public-domain source code can drive you beyond frustration into > the Great Beyond, but scrapping all of the games seems a bit ham > handed. Why not send any questionable source code to the > corporations in question, and let them make all of thier > objections at once? > > And I'm not sure it's necessary to remove all traces of the > game, just all traces of the trademarked word or phrase. > > Illegitimati non carborundum. agreed. boggle == duh jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:29:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21841 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:29:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21819 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:28:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11439; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:27:57 -0200 (EDT) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199711040127.XAA11439@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-Reply-To: <199711032256.RAA24611@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from Bill Paul at "Nov 3, 97 05:56:35 pm" To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:27:57 -0200 (EDT) Cc: jonny@coppe.ufrj.br, perhaps@yes.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(Bill Paul) // > Humm... This needs some change from the sender point of view, right ? // > Maybe it could be more useful if it messed only with the receiver side. // > Is it possible ? Probably not, for datagram stuff. // // Both the sender and the receiver have to cooperate a bit. The sender // must use sendmsg() and the receiver must use recvmsg(). But the receiver // is able to enforce the use of credentials: a sender can use send() or // write() or whatever, but in this case the receiver will not get any // ancillary data and the cmsg_type flag will not be set. The receiver then // knows that there aren't any creds to look at so it can return an error // to the sender and ignore the unauthenticated message. I'm not thinking in the shadow problem right now. I'm thinking about the new flag. Maybe it could be a bit more useful if it needed a change (an ioctl() ?) just on the receiver side. IFF the receiver needs to check, check. If not, don't. I can't think in an application right now, but I don't like to put limits where they need not to be. // > // Now, all that aside, you could use the SCM_CREDS hack and AF_UNIX sockets // > // to create a 'password database access' daemon and fix it so that a user // > // can see his own encrypted password and noone else's. But consider the // > // following: // > // // > // - If the system uses this daemon for login authentication and the daemon // > // crashes, noone will be able to log in. // > // > I thought about that. Just make the program use this as an option, and // > not the default behavior. Maybe, even, not automatic. // // You would have to fall back to the directly reading the password database. // The problem is that this checking to see which method to use incurrs // overhead, which is something you'd like to avoid. Back to the shadow problem. What about this ? Use the default method to get the records (shadow protected) If pw->uid == uid || pw->uid == euid then try to use daemon to get the password field. if ok add to record else leave the '*' endif endif Only the first if will be an overhead. And this could be reduced to some instructions with apropriate coding. Note: The input to the daemon must not be the uid, but the login name. But the input to the above condicional is the uid. // > // - You have to code it in such a way that it won't fall apart in the face // > // of heavy (and possibly concurrent) access by clients. // > // > Sure. To make a head start, maybe a very simple forking connection // > daemon could work. // // What if I'm a mean widdle user and I write a program to constantly // bombard the 'passwd database daemon' with requests? You have to be // careful: this could make the daemon fork() all over the place and eat // up system resources. I 'fixed' ypserv so that it can only have a certain // number of children going at any one time; if you try to go over the // limit, the request fails. (Ypserv only fork()s for YPPROC_ALL requests // at this point; the only command that uses the YPPROC_ALL service is // ypcat, so it's a reasonable tradeoff.) DoS's are always a problem, and not always have a solution. I have shut down a V7 system once, by running lots of setuid programs, until eat up all proc table. And nobody has convinced me it's not possible anymore. In the above case, the user will may see this as a "wrong password". Since root programs do not need this, it's not a big trouble, IMHO. But, solutions are always good, of course. They're welcome. // > Multithreading is always an option, of course. // // Only if you're into that sort of kinky stuff. :) // > // - Consider getpwent(3). You have to make the daemon be able to handle // > // things like enumerating the passwd database, not just retrieving // > // arbitrary records. // > // > Could you please elaborate on this ? // // I can do pw = getpwnam("wpaul") to retrieve just my record from the // passwd database, or I can do: // // while((pw = getpwent()) != NULL) { // if (strcmp(pw->pw_name, "wpaul")) // continue; // } // // In the latter case, we start from the 'top' of the database and read // every record until we find the one we want. The former case is just a // matter of matching a key in the database: you find the record that goes // with the key and return it. The latter case is more disgusting: it's // not a problem if you're reading from a file or database directly, but when // reading from a remote process, it's tough to handle such an 'enumeration' // request. It's even thougher if you have several of them going at once: // the server has to juggle multiple clients and send each one the right // records in the right order. You will not read every record from the remote process. Just those entries which match your uid. // > Do we have something similar for AF_UNIX sockets ? // // I have made it ridiculously easy to make RPC client/server programs // that use AF_UNIX sockets in -current. :) For an example, see keyserv. I know it's easy. As it's easy to have lot's of waiting processes instead of just a single inetd superserver. My question if does already exist such a beast. Or even, if this could be done with inetd (probably not, but I've never used the AF_UNIX features to know for sure). // VMS gets by with allowing unprivileged users to see only their password // information in the SYSUAF.DAT database. (I'm not entirely sure how this // is done: I vaguely remember that there were some library routines for // doing authentication checks and that the SYSUAF.DAT file was not readable // by normal users. You could only perform authentication checks using the // library interface.) I'm not sure how VMS http servers deal with this // restriction; perhaps they INSTALL the web server image with a particular // privilege bit set that lets it do authentication for any user. VMS has a lot more control with ACLs than any other system I have seen. It's not simple, but it's powerful. Maybe they have lots of bugs, but they solve lots of problems unix has. Is it good ? Maybe. Even Unix is in need of ACLs, but it requires a lot of changes in the system behaviour. And I'm not talking only about file ACLs here. But this is another history. // In any case, there are arguments for both. The former method is, as you // say, more compatible with existing code. The latter allows you isolate // the use of the crypt(3) function to a single process, which is handy // since it means you'd never have to worry about linking new programs with // -lcrypt ever again. I took this approach with _des_crypt() in Secure RPC: // keyserv is the only program that actually calls the libdes library; // everyone else just calls keyserv. Then you will have the problem with dead servers and performance requirements. I'm not proposing a change, just an "adjustment". Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:31:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22017 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:31:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22012 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:31:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id SAA24873 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:31:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07886 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:37:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:37:25 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). I would miss /usr/games/rot13; after all, it is all I get for encyryption in the base install. Don't tell me pathetic US laws will remove this one too. But seriously, not having rot13 (and fortune) in the base system would be bad IMHO. primes, random, number are also good shell script utils, but they are obscure enough to be left out of the base. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:45:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23151 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23145 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:45:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00528; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:10:49 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711040140.MAA00528@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Bill Paul cc: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund), hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:52:37 CDT." <199711031452.JAA24127@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 12:10:49 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The SCM_CREDS hack will work better. For those who don't know, SCM_CREDS > is an additional type of ancillary data that you can transmit with > sendmsg()/recvmsg() via an AF_UNIX socket. It's similar to SCM_RIGHTS [... description ...] This beats the living crap out of the whole PAM approach. 8) > Now, all that aside, you could use the SCM_CREDS hack and AF_UNIX sockets > to create a 'password database access' daemon and fix it so that a user > can see his own encrypted password and noone else's. But consider the > following: > > - If the system uses this daemon for login authentication and the daemon > crashes, noone will be able to log in. The API that user processes use should support local passwords as a fallback in this event. > - Consider getpwent(3). You have to make the daemon be able to handle > things like enumerating the passwd database, not just retrieving > arbitrary records. If you support stacking based on the source of the request, enumerating all of the users that may be permitted on the system actually becomes pretty pointless. In some cases, it may actually not be possible to traverse the list of users (consider using something like Radius for remote user authentication). What applications actually require the ability to enumerate all users on a system? mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:48:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23339 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:48:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (root@gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com [207.113.159.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23256 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:48:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdonl@tsc.tdk.com) Received: from sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (root@sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.191]) by gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA18342; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.194]) by sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25228; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10391; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:47:47 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199711040147.RAA10391@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:47:47 -0800 In-Reply-To: Simon Shapiro "Re: de0 errors" (Nov 3, 5:15pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Simon Shapiro , Don Lewis Subject: Re: de0 errors Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Jaye Mathisen , Matt Thomas , Charles Henrich Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 3, 5:15pm, Simon Shapiro wrote: } Subject: Re: de0 errors } } Hi Don Lewis; On 04-Nov-97 you wrote: } } ... } } > } Humm, tcpblast shows 4.0MB/sec. Granted this isnt an empty net } > either, fairly } > } busy I would imagine. } > } > That's probably a reasonable number for a 10Mb network, but not a } > 100Mb network. BTW, I bet this NIC is also hurting your disk I/O } > throughput since it is hogging the PCI bus because it's using an } > inefficient transfer method. } } I must be missing something. 4MB/sec. on TCP/IP over Ethernet is on a good } day, more than 40MHz. No? You're not missing anything, I slipped a decimal point. Sigh ... BTW, I just did some quick calculations and a 21140 + 440FX might still be able to drive the network at full speed without running out of PCI bandwidth. It's just that if you're transmitting, you'll consume about 4x the transmit bandwidth on the PCI bus. If you're able to send at 10MB/sec, then you'll consume about 40MB/sec on the PCI bus out of the theoretical 132MB/sec. --- Truck From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:52:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23687 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:52:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23676 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:52:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00560; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:16:57 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711040146.MAA00560@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /etc/*.conf file for daily/weekly/security etc maintenance In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:32:28 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 12:16:56 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just curious, why dont we create a .conf file in /etc like the rc.conf, > but for daily maintenance--allow people to easilly enable/disable options > without having to get in and make lots of changes to the > daily/weekly/monthly/security/whatnot files? I've been doing this sortof > thing with my own changes, where the config file is /etc/janitor.conf, > in the same format as /etc/rc.conf (but for periodic > janitorial/maintenance items). Just propose your extensions to rc.conf; everything should be in there. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 17:57:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23946 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:57:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23941 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:57:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA04447; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:56:43 -0800 (PST) To: Gary Kendall cc: hackers@freebsd.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:09:12 EST." <199711040009.TAA08962@ccomp.inode.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:56:43 -0800 Message-ID: <4443.878608603@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I can understand how mixing high-priced corporate lawyers with > public-domain source code can drive you beyond frustration into > the Great Beyond, but scrapping all of the games seems a bit ham > handed. Why not send any questionable source code to the > corporations in question, and let them make all of thier > objections at once? What corporations? You have a list of all parties who might conceivably have a trademark infringement problem with us? Are you willing to do the work of tracking down and contacting all of these people? If not, I'm still going to go for "remove the games" as the only *effective* solution since pie-in-the-sky suggestions like yours avail us naught. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:00:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24221 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:00:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24215 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:00:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11332; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:59:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711040159.RAA11332@rah.star-gate.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:33:04 PST." <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:59:53 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gosh, jkh you starting to make sense . Please nuke /usr/src/games! As for fortune , it will be nice if it was just an addon package or port. Tnks! Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:00:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24248 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:00:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24237 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA11007; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd011004; Tue Nov 4 01:52:16 1997 Message-ID: <345E7F61.52BFA1D7@whistle.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:50:25 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Reed CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: the kernel API... References: <199711030212.SAA27203@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Darren Reed wrote: > > Now I guess the question is, which API or include file is right ? If you look at these two files, you will discover that /usr/include/machine is derived on 386 based BSD from /usr/src/i86/include looking in that directory you will see that spl.h is n longer present. therefore you have a left-over file.. these were felt to be machine independent defines and moved elsewhere. (i.e. systm.h) I hope that solves the mystery :) julian (who was caught by surprise by the move a little while ago) > > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:122: conflicting types for `splbio' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:187: previous declaration of `splbio' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:123: conflicting types for `splclock' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:188: previous declaration of `splclock' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h: In function `splclock': > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:123: `HWI_MASK' undeclared (first use this > function) > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:123: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only > onc > e > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:123: for each function it appears in.) > /usr/include/machine/spl.h: At top level: > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:124: conflicting types for `splhigh' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:189: previous declaration of `splhigh' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h: In function `splhigh': > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:124: `HWI_MASK' undeclared (first use this > function) > /usr/include/machine/spl.h: At top level: > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:125: conflicting types for `splimp' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:190: previous declaration of `splimp' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:126: conflicting types for `splnet' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:191: previous declaration of `splnet' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h: In function `splnet': > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:126: `NHWI' undeclared (first use this function) > /usr/include/machine/spl.h: At top level: > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:127: conflicting types for `splsoftclock' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:199: previous declaration of `splsoftclock' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:128: conflicting types for `splsofttty' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:200: previous declaration of `splsofttty' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h: In function `splsofttty': > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:128: `NHWI' undeclared (first use this function) > /usr/include/machine/spl.h: At top level: > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:129: conflicting types for `splstatclock' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:201: previous declaration of `splstatclock' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:130: conflicting types for `spltty' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:202: previous declaration of `spltty' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:131: conflicting types for `splvm' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:203: previous declaration of `splvm' > /usr/include/sys/systm.h:203: previous declaration of `splvm' > /usr/include/machine/spl.h:135: warning: static declaration for `spl0' > > (from -current, I believe) Are you sure you guys aren't trying to turn > FreeBSD into Linux ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:05:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24656 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:05:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24645 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:05:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00639; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:30:32 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711040200.MAA00639@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BIOS information preservation (was Re: >64MB) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:39:36 -0000." <199711031939.MAA22218@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 12:30:32 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Anyone likely to complain if I add a new datastructure to i386/bios.c and > > start populating it with stuff that various parts of the system glean > > about the BIOS environment? Or should I be using a procedural lookup > > interface for this? > > My preference would be for a generic mechanism for use in thunking any > BIOS call to a VM86() for processing in that environment. There is a > good "MindShare" book on Protected Mode System Architecture, actually... Jonathan Lemon has one; I've been playing with it but it's a little too far out of date (I think), certainly I've been getting some unhelpful results. The implementation gives you a kernel process (vm86daemon) which runs in vm86 mode; you throw stuff into its address space and call it, which I guess equates to "thunking" in MS-speak. > In any case, a mechanism similar to the SCO "vm86()" system call > would be good (plus it would help with IBCS2 emulation). We have this already; see doscmd for an example of this in action. [... reading Word documents ...] > The VC++ code contains full source code for the "WordPad" program. > > Unfortunately, you need a Win32 (as you suggest) because there is a DLL > involved in reading the Word Format documents. Is this DLL part of Win32, or part of WordPad? If the former, how does MS's stance on pushing the Win32 API onto *nix platforms impact its potential availability? (Actually, given that Willows can call Win32 native DLL's even from *nix-mode, this may be less of a problem than it sounds.) mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:12:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25207 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:12:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25200 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:12:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23920; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:12:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd023903; Mon Nov 3 19:12:38 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA14153; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:12:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711040212.TAA14153@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: portal pid not correct... To: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:12:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19971102014238.14394@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> from "John-Mark Gurney" at Nov 2, 97 01:42:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I took a look at the code.. and basicly it doesn't become a daemon before > tring to mount the fs... and this is understandable else you can't return > a failed mount... > > now as I see this, there are a couple ways to fix this... > a) just become a daemon and then mount, this isn't very attrative > as the error doesn't get reported > b) do something were it will fork off the child, child will > immediately SIGSTOP itself, then parent will mount, and then > parent will SIGCONT the process for normal execution, or kill > it off if the mount failed. > c) insert your idea hear > > comments? ideas? Use vfork for the side effect before child exit/exec. Man vfork for details. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:15:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25450 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:15:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25445 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:15:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-68.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.68]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12696 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:15:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA27142 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:39:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711040139.TAA27142@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:33:04 PST." <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:39:25 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). Please keep fortune! Everything else can go. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:23:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26198 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26187 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (mail.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.21]) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA19090; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:23:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:23:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Snob Art Genre , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <3644.878600457@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > If you delete /usr/src/games/fortune, I'm going to load Linux on my > > machine. > > Is that a promise? :-) How's about we make fortune part of the bin dist? I, for one, consider it a part of the bare minimum for a usable system. If I don't have fortune, I get so *#&$% ticked off trying to get things to work, I crash my hard drive through the window. Gotta spend some time just typing fortune -o ; fortune -o ; fortune -o ...... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:25:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26516 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:25:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26496 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:24:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from faber@ISI.EDU) Received: from ISI.EDU (vex-s.isi.edu [128.9.192.240]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA08017; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:24:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711040224.SAA08017@tnt.isi.edu> To: jbryant@tfs.net Cc: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM (Gary Kendall), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:18:37 CST." <199711040118.TAA03476@argus.tfs.net> X-Url: http://www.isi.edu/~faber Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:24:47 -0800 From: Ted Faber Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Jim Bryant wrote: >In reply: >> > upon receipt of a letter from Hasbro's legal council >> > stating that we are violating the trademark on "Boggle", a Hasbro >> > game. > >well, how about these suggestions: > Part of having a trademark means that they have to protect it. In fact, the law all but forces them to come after us. Failure for them to come after FreeBSD for infringing their trademark after they knew we were infringing it could open them up to losing a case against someone who really *was* trying to steal their trademark for profit. Kind of like my little brother got to do lots of stuff because Mom let me do 'em first. I don't think that's the mark of a sane society, but it's the way the law is written and is enforced. To protect their trademark from others they have to protect it from us. Xerox didn't and poof, xerox is an English word and 3M can include it in their adds. > Point out EVERY MS-DOG/WINBLOWZ version to these corporations, >and tell them to go for the real numbers... That won't get them off our back, but they will have to go after all of them then. > > Ask them to write a FreeBSD version. Failing this, cite the >fact that since they fail to support the market, they thus have >abandoned it. All after that is fair play. Unfortunately, this is about the law, not fair play. I'm no lawyer, but I bet we lose this one in court. > > Also point out that they have had how long to complain? How >long has boggle been part of BSD? Ignorance is not an excuse for them >either, especially if a profit is not being made. If you can show they've known about the program for some time and taken no action, you might have a case here. Otherwise, they've got to take action pretty much as soon as they know about us. > Also point out that Boggle is not that high priority item >apparently, as they fail to include it on their homepage. Doesn't matter to the lawyers. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, but I can produce two intellectual property guys like that. :-) Oh, I don't play any of the games but rogue, which I think of as ASCII Doom. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Faber faber@isi.edu USC/ISI Computer Scientist http://www.isi.edu/~faber (310) 822-1511 x190 PGP Key: http://www.isi.edu/~faber/pubkey.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNF6Hbob4eisfQ5rpAQGt9wQAisVrkqgJ/cAor/punvk3fZtzkq6ZZFIl gAQNriMYscZosqSYWT3rti/g/Utyv2MDS8xab8wvjTPifaMv2LqqXR0kf0VCd8IM L3pvU+BQsZonktrj3XhsHYy3Y5bXnQWjg9CZI98bU6fIbMjdkUc8NKme7/pDniBt Ab6ydH383hI= =d98C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:28:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26824 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26799; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:28:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home ([208.141.171.158]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA05526; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:27:50 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:27:17 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Maximum number of forked processes In-Reply-To: <19971104113110.52901@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 04:16:36PM -0700, Charles Mott wrote: > > How does one control the maximum number of forked processes from within > > the parent process? > > I suppose the answer is "manually". setrlimit(2) allows you to limit > the number of processes (=forks) per user, but I don't know of > anything that would limit the number of children of a process. > > > Since this is an elementary question but regards programming, I was > > uncertain whether to send it to -questions or -hackers. > > In fact, I'd think that this is worthy of -hackers, so I'm following > up there. > > Greg Tentatively, I am thinking of incrementing a counter when a process is forked and decrementing it when a SIGCLD is received. However, I don't know what standard procedure is in this matter. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:30:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27070 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:30:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27057 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:30:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24712; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:30:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd024698; Mon Nov 3 19:30:27 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA14861; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:30:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711040230.TAA14861@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: gcc and bitfields To: jwm@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (John Milford) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:30:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711021618.IAA02063@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> from "John Milford" at Nov 2, 97 08:18:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > By default gcc pads structures to make make the size a multiple of 4 bytes. > Try: > > struct C_OPEN { > int a; > int b; > unsigned xdt:1; > unsigned reserved:15; > } __attribute__ ((packed)); Or you can keep the code portable to DOS by not using the bogus GNUish namespace intrusion "__attribute__": #pragma pack(1) struct C_OPEN { int a; int b; unsigned xdt:1; unsigned reserved:15; }; #pragma pack(4) /* * GCC will take "pack()" (no arguments) to reset; I don't remember * if MSVC++ can, however... you should check, and use the no argument * version, if possible. */ Also: cd /sys/i386/include grep pragma *.h ...there's already precedent favoring "#pragma pack()" over "__attribute__" in FreeBSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:43:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28165 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:43:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.5.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28160 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:43:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01172; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:43:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd001162; Mon Nov 3 19:43:00 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA15381; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:42:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711040242.TAA15381@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Help in data recovery To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:42:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, gopu@global.com In-Reply-To: <19971103074838.HP19395@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Nov 3, 97 07:48:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Surely Julian didn't want you to run fdisk on a tape drive. :-) So > just type `fdisk', and it will pick up the first disk for you. If the manufacturer didn't want me to put a filesystem on a device, then they'd make it so the device wasn't block addressable. Otherwise it gets an FS... mount -t ansitape /dev/rst0 /mnt 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:55:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29226 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:55:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29221 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:55:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA04968; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:54:51 -0800 (PST) To: Ben Cottrell cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 16:51:28 PST." <199711040051.QAA05985@pendor.McKusick.COM> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:54:51 -0800 Message-ID: <4964.878612091@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm not in front of my freebsd box at the moment, but an ls of /usr/games > on a NetBSD system produces: > > adventure caesar fortune morse rain teachgammon > arithmetic canfield gomoku number random tetris > atc cfscores hack phantasia robots trek > backgammon chess hangman pig rogue wargames > banner cribbage hide pom rot13 worm > battlestar dm larn ppt sail worms > bcd factor mille primes snake wump > boggle fish monop quiz snscore Hmmm. I wouldn't be surprised if gomoku, phantasia (Disney) and trek were also slated for The Nasty Letter some time in the future. I'd say NetBSD's got even more infringers in their tree than we do and would probably be well advised to nuke their /usr/src/games also. :) And since when was rot13 a "game", anyway? A pretty boring game, if you ask me :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:56:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29453 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:56:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29448 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:56:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA04990; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:55:42 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:24:09 +1030." <19971104112409.54867@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:55:42 -0800 Message-ID: <4987.878612142@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think it would be a pity to get rid of them altogether. Can't > somebody in some country that isn't too worried about US litigation > (sorry, excludes Australia) put them up on a machine, and we just > point to them? Again, that would be exactly the point of making a port out of the whole bundle. I'm willing to do the honors if someone out there is willing to volunteer the FTP site. "bsdgames" sound like a good name for the port? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:57:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29498 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:57:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29487 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:57:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA23536; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:27:06 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971104132706.28397@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:27:06 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <19971104112409.54867@lemis.com> <4987.878612142@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <4987.878612142@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 06:55:42PM -0800 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 06:55:42PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I think it would be a pity to get rid of them altogether. Can't >> somebody in some country that isn't too worried about US litigation >> (sorry, excludes Australia) put them up on a machine, and we just >> point to them? > > Again, that would be exactly the point of making a port out of the > whole bundle. I'm willing to do the honors if someone out there is > willing to volunteer the FTP site. "bsdgames" sound like a good name > for the port? If nobody else comes up, I'll do it, as long as the traffic isn't too much (I'm on a 33.6 kb/s link). Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 18:59:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29649 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:59:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from pendor.McKusick.COM (root@pendor.bayarea.net [205.219.85.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29637 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:59:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benco@pendor.McKusick.COM) Received: from localhost (benco@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pendor.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA01991; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:02:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811040302.TAA01991@pendor.McKusick.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: pendor.McKusick.COM: benco@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:54:51 PST." <4964.878612091@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 19:02:04 -0800 From: Ben Cottrell Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <4964.878612091@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > And since when was rot13 a "game", anyway? A pretty boring game, if > you ask me :) Actually, that was a large portion of my point :-) There are many things in /usr/games that are not games, they are actually useful utilities. Nuking the entire directory would not only eliminate fluff, it would also take out a number of mathematical and text-processing utilities with it. I would get behind a proposal to eliminate all the real "games" while leaving the rest, but I strongly oppose deleting the whole directory. ~Ben From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 19:07:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00497 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:07:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00492 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:07:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA05105; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:06:35 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:27:06 +1030." <19971104132706.28397@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:06:35 -0800 Message-ID: <5101.878612795@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If nobody else comes up, I'll do it, as long as the traffic isn't too > much (I'm on a 33.6 kb/s link). I honestly hope we can do better than that. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 19:09:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00776 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00764 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:09:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA05127; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:08:42 -0800 (PST) To: Ben Cottrell cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Nov 1998 19:02:04 PST." <199811040302.TAA01991@pendor.McKusick.COM> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:08:41 -0800 Message-ID: <5124.878612921@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I would get behind a proposal to eliminate all the real "games" while leaving > the rest, but I strongly oppose deleting the whole directory. But as you just said yourself, those things which fall into the "useful" category also AREN'T GAMES, so why the heck would you want to preserve /usr/src/games strictly for a family of utilities which don't even belong there? By all means, move the misfiled items into /usr/src/usr.bin or wherever they belong as non-games, but don't preserve this hierarchy for the very worst of reasons, please! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 19:09:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00859 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:09:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from eddie.mit.edu (EDDIE.MIT.EDU [18.62.0.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00839 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:09:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdk@ccomp.inode.COM) Received: from ccomp.inode.com by eddie.mit.edu id aa08573; 3 Nov 97 22:03 EST Received: (from gdk@localhost) by ccomp.inode.com (8.6.9/1.5) id WAA09511; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:01:06 -0500 From: Gary Kendall Message-Id: <199711040301.WAA09511@ccomp.inode.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:01:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.ORG In-Reply-To: <4443.878608603@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 3, 97 05:56:43 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It wasn't too long ago that Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > I can understand how mixing high-priced corporate lawyers with > > public-domain source code can drive you beyond frustration into > > the Great Beyond, but scrapping all of the games seems a bit ham > > handed. Why not send any questionable source code to the > > corporations in question, and let them make all of thier > > objections at once? > > What corporations? You have a list of all parties who might > conceivably have a trademark infringement problem with us? Are you > willing to do the work of tracking down and contacting all of these > people? > > If not, I'm still going to go for "remove the games" as the only > *effective* solution since pie-in-the-sky suggestions like yours > avail us naught. > > Jordan > Well, it would seem that Hasbro is one, and as for the others, if you've seen the game for sale by someone (like a Tetris box at CompUSA, or advertised somewhere), then they could be included, as well. I don't think you're in any trademark trouble with adventure, or bcd, or primes. Do you? A nuclear detonation is an effective solution to pest control, but I don't beleive it's the *only* effective solution. Regards, Gary Kendall %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% % The difficult is done immediately, the impossible takes a little longer. % %----------------------------------------------------------------------------% % gdk@ccomp.inode.com or gkendall@eddie.mit.edu % %----------------------------------------------------------------------------% % Creative Computing * 96 Forest Street * Danvers, MA 01923 * 978-777-3784 % %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 19:10:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00967 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:10:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00957 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:10:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA23600; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:40:13 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971104134013.34879@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:40:13 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <19971104132706.28397@lemis.com> <5101.878612795@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <5101.878612795@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 07:06:35PM -0800 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 07:06:35PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> If nobody else comes up, I'll do it, as long as the traffic isn't too >> much (I'm on a 33.6 kb/s link). > > I honestly hope we can do better than that. :-) So do I. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 19:13:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01441 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:13:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01431 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA05196; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:12:45 -0800 (PST) To: Gary Kendall cc: hackers@freebsd.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 22:01:06 EST." <199711040301.WAA09511@ccomp.inode.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:12:45 -0800 Message-ID: <5192.878613165@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, it would seem that Hasbro is one, and as for the others, if you've > seen the game for sale by someone (like a Tetris box at CompUSA, or > advertised somewhere), then they could be included, as well. I don't Sorry, that's simply far too hit-and-miss a tactic for me to endorse. We're supposed to count on a bunch of FreeBSD hackers scanning the shelves at "Toys R Us" as a substitute for legal surety? Yeah, right. :-) > Do you? A nuclear detonation is an effective solution to pest control, > but I don't beleive it's the *only* effective solution. As "Hicks" said in the movie Aliens: "Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 19:29:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02778 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:29:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02769 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:29:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home ([208.141.171.158]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA12659; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:29:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:28:34 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <4443.878608603@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > What corporations? You have a list of all parties who might > conceivably have a trademark infringement problem with us? Are you > willing to do the work of tracking down and contacting all of these > people? > > If not, I'm still going to go for "remove the games" as the only > *effective* solution since pie-in-the-sky suggestions like yours > avail us naught. Is the core of your argement that you might have to remove additional games in the future and so let's just get it all over with now? Sick of those pesky lawyers and their cease and desist letters? Sometimes the historical anachronisms come in handy, such as rot13 (which seems to have vanished already). Jordan, I think that you handle release engineering for the best free unix distribution in the world, and a distribution CD is a lot more than just the kernel. Since your services are at no cost (well, maybe Walnut Creek throws a few morsels your way), I can't criticize you for wanting to reduce your workload. But aren't you at least a little concerned that your actions might drive "Snob Art Genre" to Linux? Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 19:43:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03704 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:43:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03697 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:43:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA13782 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd013779; Tue Nov 4 03:35:24 1997 Message-ID: <345E978D.167EB0E7@whistle.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:33:33 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------794BDF32446B9B3D2781E494" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------794BDF32446B9B3D2781E494 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oops I sent this to the wrong address before.. participants: jallison: Samba guru: Andrew Tridgell: wrote Sambe.. Linux hacker Julian: yours truely: ----------------results of benchmark-------------- /* Results with the following defines: #define NSEMS 20 #define NPROCS 60 #define NUMOPS 10000 OSF1 dominion.aquasoft.com.au V4.0 564 alpha (233 MHz) fcntl: 132.814 secs ipc: 13.5186 secs Linux 2.1.57 on a P120 fcntl: 21.3006 secs ipc: 93.9982 secs Solaris 2.5 on a Ultra170 fcntl: 192.805 secs ipc: 18.6859 secs IRIX 6.4 on a Origin200 fcntl: 183.488 secs ipc: 10.4431 secs SunOS 4.1.3 on a 2 CPU sparc 10 fcntl: 198.239 secs ipc: 150.026 secs Solaris 2.5.1 on a 4 CPU SPARCsystem-600 fcntl: 312.025 secs ipc: 24.5416 secs FreeBSD 2.2.2 on a 200MHz pentium fcntl: 3.16579 secs ipc: 2.63504 secs Linux 2.0.30 on a PPro200 fcntl: 12.2177 secs ipc: 50.4559 secs */ -------- andrew's resonse to included mail (see at end)------- (gee I hate how mime is handled in my mailer) > so I 'spose now you'll have to go fix it so that we can't bask in > our little glorie ;-) Well, only if I have a spare afternoon, which isn't likely anytime soon. The IPC code in Linux is really ugly. I had to hack it a bit to get Oracle working under SparcLinux. I won't look at it again unless I have to. The real surprise is the fcntl locking speed. You either have some really neat data structures or you don't do all the deadlock checking linux does. > of course I've never used them so I can't Guarantee that they are > actually FUNCTIONNING correctly under FreeBSD :) yeah, it's always easy to be fast when it doesn't have to be correct :-) If anyone wants the code (and results for other OSes) see ftp://samba.anu.edu.au/pub/tridge/semspeed.c Cheers, Andrew ------------------ earlier mail------------------ --------------794BDF32446B9B3D2781E494 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <345E81D2.62319AC4@whistle.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:00:50 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au CC: hackers@freebsd Subject: Re: semaphore speed References: <19971104013033Z12583198-398+5862@samba.anu.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re: SYSV semephore benchmark.. Andrew Tridgell wrote: > > > semspeed output for freebsd on a 200MHz pentium. (FreeBSD 2.2.2) > > > > NPROCS=60 NSEMS=20 NUMOPS=10000 > > fcntl: 3.16579 secs > > ipc: 2.63504 secs > > I'm sure Julian will want to see this: > > NPROCS=60 NSEMS=20 NUMOPS=10000 > fcntl: 12.2177 secs > ipc: 50.4559 secs > > that was a PPro200 running Linux 2.0.30. > > It's rare that Linux gets beaten so badly at any benchmark :-) > > Andrew so I 'spose now you'll have to go fix it so that we can't bask in our little glorie ;-) of course I've never used them so I can't Guarantee that they are actually FUNCTIONNING correctly under FreeBSD :) --------------794BDF32446B9B3D2781E494-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 19:48:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04171 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04166 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:48:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA24293; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:17:53 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971104141753.14409@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:17:53 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, gopu@global.com Subject: Re: Help in data recovery References: <19971103074838.HP19395@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199711040242.TAA15381@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199711040242.TAA15381@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 02:42:57AM +0000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 02:42:57AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Surely Julian didn't want you to run fdisk on a tape drive. :-) So >> just type `fdisk', and it will pick up the first disk for you. > > If the manufacturer didn't want me to put a filesystem on a device, > then they'd make it so the device wasn't block addressable. Otherwise > it gets an FS... > > mount -t ansitape /dev/rst0 /mnt You miss the point. mount -t ansitape /dev/st0 /mnt Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 19:58:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05185 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:58:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05170 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:58:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home ([208.141.171.158]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA08194 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:58:49 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:58:15 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home Reply-To: Charles Mott To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: gettimeofday() overhead Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In the packet aliasing code used by natd and ppp -alias, gettimeofday() is called for every packet. I think this involves a kernel context switch (correct me if I am wrong) and tests I did a while ago showed something like 60 or 70 microseconds per call on a 386. Since timing measurements don't have to be particularly accurate for libalias, does anyone have an idea how time might be measured entirely in user space? Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 20:02:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05637 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:02:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gdi.uoregon.edu (gdi.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05631 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:02:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@gdi.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by gdi.uoregon.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA26498; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:59:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@gdi.uoregon.edu) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:59:18 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White Reply-To: Doug White To: David Greenman cc: Phil Gilley , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Problem with ed driver in 2.2.5 In-Reply-To: <199711010758.XAA28986@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, David Greenman wrote: > Hmmm. Not sure how to deal with this. The reason why 0WS was turned on > was to 'fix' a serious ISA shared-memory performance problem that a lot of > newer motherboards have - the 8K RAM cards are almost useless without it. > It turned out to cause problems with reading the EEPROM on the '790 based > cards, so I killed the option for those prior to the 2.2.5 release...I'm > surprised to hear that you're having troubles with a '690 based board. > It shouldn't be a problem on most systems - this might indicate that your > ISA bus speed is set too fast. I was monitoring this discussion on -hackers and wanted to submit a suggestion: How about make this a device flag? Since it seems to break people one way or the other, make it a flag so if it's breaking someone they can fix it. Doug White | University of Oregon Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 20:04:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05877 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:04:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from eddie.mit.edu (EDDIE.MIT.EDU [18.62.0.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05870 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:04:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdk@ccomp.inode.COM) Received: from ccomp.inode.com by eddie.mit.edu id aa08992; 3 Nov 97 22:59 EST Received: (from gdk@localhost) by ccomp.inode.com (8.6.9/1.5) id XAA09761; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:02:45 -0500 From: Gary Kendall Message-Id: <199711040402.XAA09761@ccomp.inode.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:02:44 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.ORG In-Reply-To: <5192.878613165@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 3, 97 07:12:45 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It wasn't too long ago that Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > Well, it would seem that Hasbro is one, and as for the others, if you've > > seen the game for sale by someone (like a Tetris box at CompUSA, or > > advertised somewhere), then they could be included, as well. I don't > > Sorry, that's simply far too hit-and-miss a tactic for me to endorse. > We're supposed to count on a bunch of FreeBSD hackers scanning the > shelves at "Toys R Us" as a substitute for legal surety? Yeah, > right. :-) > > > Do you? A nuclear detonation is an effective solution to pest control, > > but I don't beleive it's the *only* effective solution. > > As "Hicks" said in the movie Aliens: "Nuke it from orbit, it's the > only way to be sure." > > :-) > Jordan > Well, you could contact the U.S. Patent Office, and get a list of game/toy manufacturers having registered trademarks, and send each of them a letter with the ftp address of the source. But it seems you had "Hicks'" hand on the launch button when you sent your initial RFC, so I'm not going to rain on the thermo-nuclear fireworks. ;-) Regards, Gary Kendall %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% % The difficult is done immediately, the impossible takes a little longer. % %----------------------------------------------------------------------------% % gdk@ccomp.inode.com or gkendall@eddie.mit.edu % %----------------------------------------------------------------------------% % Creative Computing * 96 Forest Street * Danvers, MA 01923 * 978-777-3784 % %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 20:09:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06211 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from phoenix.its.rpi.edu (phoenix.its.rpi.edu [128.113.161.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06200 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:09:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu) Received: from localhost (dec@localhost) by phoenix.its.rpi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29196; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:10:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:10:01 -0500 (EST) From: "David E. Cross" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Ben Cottrell , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <4964.878612091@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > And since when was rot13 a "game", anyway? A pretty boring game, if > you ask me :) > > Jordan A friend and I had great fun in finding out all of the english words that have a rot13 pair, like irk <-> vex. I have the list somewhere. -- David Cross ACS Consultant From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 20:24:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07495 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:24:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (root@gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com [207.113.159.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07489 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:24:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdonl@tsc.tdk.com) Received: from sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (root@sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.191]) by gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA19268; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.194]) by sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27776; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11047; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:23:43 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199711040423.UAA11047@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:23:43 -0800 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections?" (Nov 3, 6:54pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ben Cottrell Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 3, 6:54pm, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: } Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? } > I'm not in front of my freebsd box at the moment, but an ls of /usr/games } > on a NetBSD system produces: } > } > adventure caesar fortune morse rain teachgammon } > arithmetic canfield gomoku number random tetris } > atc cfscores hack phantasia robots trek } > backgammon chess hangman pig rogue wargames } > banner cribbage hide pom rot13 worm } > battlestar dm larn ppt sail worms } > bcd factor mille primes snake wump } > boggle fish monop quiz snscore } } Hmmm. I wouldn't be surprised if gomoku, phantasia (Disney) and trek } were also slated for The Nasty Letter some time in the future. I'd add mille and monop to this list. Canfield also sounds like something that would be trademarked. I suspect chess is safe. --- Truck From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 20:31:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08073 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:31:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08067 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:31:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id OAA13864; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:47:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma013859; Tue, 4 Nov 97 14:46:55 +1000 Received: from localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au (localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27497; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:31:32 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199711040431.OAA27497@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au: localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: portal pid not correct... References: <199711040212.TAA14153@usr09.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <199711040212.TAA14153@usr09.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 02:12:36 +0000" Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:31:31 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 4th November 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: >> I took a look at the code.. and basicly it doesn't become a daemon before >> tring to mount the fs... and this is understandable else you can't return >> a failed mount... >> >> now as I see this, there are a couple ways to fix this... >> a) just become a daemon and then mount, this isn't very attrative >> as the error doesn't get reported >> b) do something were it will fork off the child, child will >> immediately SIGSTOP itself, then parent will mount, and then >> parent will SIGCONT the process for normal execution, or kill >> it off if the mount failed. >> c) insert your idea hear > >Use vfork for the side effect before child exit/exec. Man vfork for >details. Yuck! vfork() sucks big time. Forget it exists and you will do well. To reliably coordinate with your child process use a pipe. A single byte sent through the pipe could be your "go" signal. If you want more, then pick several different byte values to represent different actions to take. If the pipe closes unexpectedly, you know that the other party died horribly. And one of your byte codes could indicate an error and be followed by the errno and/or an error message. You can use this method for coordinating either way (the parent waiting until the child has got something done, or the other way around) so it is better than vfork() anyway and it is portable back to (at least) Edition 7. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 20:34:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08221 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:34:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from roguetrader.com (brandon@cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08211 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:33:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandon@roguetrader.com) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by roguetrader.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA26639; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:33:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:33:54 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /etc/*.conf file for daily/weekly/security etc maintenance In-Reply-To: <199711040146.MAA00560@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > Just curious, why dont we create a .conf file in /etc like the rc.conf, > > but for daily maintenance--allow people to easilly enable/disable options > > without having to get in and make lots of changes to the > > daily/weekly/monthly/security/whatnot files? I've been doing this sortof > > thing with my own changes, where the config file is /etc/janitor.conf, > > in the same format as /etc/rc.conf (but for periodic > > janitorial/maintenance items). > > Just propose your extensions to rc.conf; everything should be in there. I thought about it, but is it appropriate? rc.conf is for startup things, no? regular maintenance.. *shrug* From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 20:45:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08722 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:45:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08716 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA16661; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:48:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711040448.UAA16661@implode.root.com> To: Doug White cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Problem with ed driver in 2.2.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:59:18 PST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:48:11 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, David Greenman wrote: > >> Hmmm. Not sure how to deal with this. The reason why 0WS was turned on >> was to 'fix' a serious ISA shared-memory performance problem that a lot of >> newer motherboards have - the 8K RAM cards are almost useless without it. >> It turned out to cause problems with reading the EEPROM on the '790 based >> cards, so I killed the option for those prior to the 2.2.5 release...I'm >> surprised to hear that you're having troubles with a '690 based board. >> It shouldn't be a problem on most systems - this might indicate that your >> ISA bus speed is set too fast. > >I was monitoring this discussion on -hackers and wanted to submit a >suggestion: > >How about make this a device flag? Since it seems to break people one way >or the other, make it a flag so if it's breaking someone they can fix it. Device flags that fix/cause system crashes are a bad idea. If I were to preserve the feature at all, it would best take the form of a compile time option. For now, I'm happy to go back to the way it has been in FreeBSD since the beginning - no 0WS. Thanks for the suggestion though. :-) -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 20:52:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09201 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:52:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09195 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:52:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01232; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:18:45 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711040448.PAA01232@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Brandon Gillespie cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /etc/*.conf file for daily/weekly/security etc maintenance In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:33:54 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:18:45 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Just propose your extensions to rc.conf; everything should be in there. > > I thought about it, but is it appropriate? rc.conf is for startup things, > no? regular maintenance.. *shrug* rc.conf is for general parametric information; whether it be startup or periodic. Things like the named flags etc. are consumed by the named.* scripts and so forth. Unless there's a _really_ compelling reason, rc.conf is the way to go. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 21:18:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10708 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:18:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10703 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:18:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id PAA15841; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:33:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma015834; Tue, 4 Nov 97 15:33:27 +1000 Received: from localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au (localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00683; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:18:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199711040518.PAA00683@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au: localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <4964.878612091@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <4964.878612091@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 02:54:51 +0000" Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:18:03 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 4th November 1997, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >And since when was rot13 a "game", anyway? A pretty boring game, if >you ask me :) I agree it's not a game. But I think we should keep it and all the other utilities (factor, primes, banner, etc). Perhaps they should be in /usr/bin instead. Regardless, I think they are useful, small, and no legal danger. The rest can be moved to ports. And any of them that are controversial can be dealt with in the same way as other legally encumbered ports. Given the success of the ports system, this move is really years overdue! I don't like the idea of one enormous "bsdgames" port. They should be individuals, just like all other ports. Perhaps a "bsdgames" section could be made, but even that isn't really necessary. "fortune" could be a special case to appease that chap who would defect to Linux. :-) Personally, I would have no problems with installing it as a port, just like the dozen or so other toys that I am particularly fond of. I'm sure most people like "fortune", but how upset could they get if they have to pick it out of the ports list to install it? Stephen. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 21:18:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10731 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:18:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10725 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:18:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12174; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:18:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711040518.VAA12174@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Marc Slemko cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:37:25 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:18:06 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > > moved). > > I would miss /usr/games/rot13; after all, it is all I get for encyryption > in the base install. Don't tell me pathetic US laws will remove this one > too. > > But seriously, not having rot13 (and fortune) in the base system would be > bad IMHO. primes, random, number are also good shell script utils, but > they are obscure enough to be left out of the base. Give me a break . Many of us build the system from scratch . If the games are moved to a ports section you lose nothing. Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 21:27:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11493 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:27:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11488 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:27:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xSbPt-0000O2-00; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:20:41 -0800 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:20:35 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis cc: perhaps@yes.no, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) In-Reply-To: <199711032102.TAA09231@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > A lot. You just have not seen the aplication yet... > > Think in xlock, for the most obvious example. xlock is rather specialized. > // I don't find this very useful. For example, lets say you want a web > // server to be able to verify passwords, but the web server is running as a > // "www" user, so it can't anything but its own password? The pwcheck daemon > // is a little more useful. It allows me to have fairly unprivledged servers > // check passwords. > > Then what you want is to disable shadow passwords at all ? Can't be done, even if that is what I wanted. > Or, maybe, that a GROUP of uids could see every other password. > It is a way of thinking, and may be useful too. Sure, that is what the pwcheck daemon does. > But what do you want to do with other people password without > root privs ? "Hey, I know you are who you say you are, but > I can do nothing for you. I'm just nobody, sorry". Who says you can't do anthing if you aren't root? I have a POP/IMAP server which run completely non-root (avoiding all the nasty bugs that appeared in UW-imapd), and it uses the pwcheck daemon to do this. A web server is also a good example. You don't want it running as root, but you want to restrict certain things to certain users found in the passwd file. > Jonny > > -- > Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br > +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br > Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI > PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 > > Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 21:32:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11857 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11792 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:32:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@quickweb.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id AAA29987; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:33:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971104003303.22949@vmunix.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:33:03 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Greg Lehey , Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <19971104132706.28397@lemis.com> <5101.878612795@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <5101.878612795@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 07:06:35PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 07:06:35PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > If nobody else comes up, I'll do it, as long as the traffic isn't too > > much (I'm on a 33.6 kb/s link). > > I honestly hope we can do better than that. :-) Well, I'll hold it. I'm in Canada, which ought to be enough to keep a few nastygrams at bay.... maybe... :-) So, if you decide to make the games into a bundle, let me know and I'll stick it on my FTP/WWW server. It's 5MBit/s ATM link right now... I'll have the site for at least another 1.5 years. If that's too short term, someone else will have to step up. cya, -Mark > > Jordan -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Win95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. -UGU From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 21:50:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13319 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:50:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from whizzo.TransSys.COM (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13311 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:50:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.TransSys.COM) Received: from whizzo.TransSys.COM (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.TransSys.COM (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA01888; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:50:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711040550.AAA01888@whizzo.TransSys.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <5192.878613165@time.cdrom.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:12:45 PST." <5192.878613165@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:50:30 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sorry, that's simply far too hit-and-miss a tactic for me to endorse. > We're supposed to count on a bunch of FreeBSD hackers scanning the > shelves at "Toys R Us" as a substitute for legal surety? Yeah, > right. :-) > > > Do you? A nuclear detonation is an effective solution to pest control, > > but I don't beleive it's the *only* effective solution. Nuke the games. I shall relish the disk space and 'make world' time it saves. > As "Hicks" said in the movie Aliens: "Nuke it from orbit, it's the > only way to be sure." And look what happened to them, not executing that plan in time :-) > :-) > Jordan louie From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 22:07:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14244 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sendero-ppp.i-connect.net (sendero-ppp.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14239 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:07:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-ppp.i-connect.net) Received: (qmail 27574 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Nov 1997 06:07:38 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2-beta-103097 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199711040242.TAA15381@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 22:07:38 -0800 (PST) Organization: Atlas Telecom From: Simon Shapiro To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Help in data recovery Cc: gopu@global.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Terry Lambert; On 04-Nov-97 you wrote: > > Surely Julian didn't want you to run fdisk on a tape drive. :-) So > > just type `fdisk', and it will pick up the first disk for you. > > If the manufacturer didn't want me to put a filesystem on a device, > then they'd make it so the device wasn't block addressable. Otherwise > it gets an FS... > > mount -t ansitape /dev/rst0 /mnt > > 8-) 8-) He is laughing and I am crying :-)) This was the standard mode of operation as recently as the Tahoe project. But really was the only way to install Unix on a PDP11. You mount the tape and watch in amazement as the hours go by. The amazement came from the fact that it actually booted. --- If Microsoft Built Cars: Every time they repainted the lines on the road, you'd have to buy a new car. Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Atlas Telecom Senior Architect 14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005 Shimon@i-Connect.Net Voice: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 22:07:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14330 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:07:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gratis.grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14319 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@greenpeace.grondar.za) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (djPQVTteXy5x7yR976BNWxBfL+jBYGR2@greenpeace.grondar.za [196.7.18.132]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04970; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:07:54 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from mark@greenpeace.grondar.za) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (hyZ+pdscLRFEnuiF1NiyICjTkSbnswm1@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by greenpeace.grondar.za (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29379; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:08:41 +0200 (SAST) Message-Id: <199711040608.IAA29379@greenpeace.grondar.za> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 08:08:40 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > I think it would be a pity to get rid of them altogether. Can't > > somebody in some country that isn't too worried about US litigation > > (sorry, excludes Australia) put them up on a machine, and we just > > point to them? > > Again, that would be exactly the point of making a port out of the > whole bundle. I'm willing to do the honors if someone out there is > willing to volunteer the FTP site. "bsdgames" sound like a good name > for the port? Internat.freebsd.org can do this. M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 22:32:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15612 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:32:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15605 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:32:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home ([208.141.171.158]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA16431 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:32:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:31:49 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home Reply-To: Charles Mott To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Stephen McKay wrote: > "fortune" could be a special case to appease that chap who would defect > to Linux. :-) Personally, I would have no problems with installing it as > a port, just like the dozen or so other toys that I am particularly fond of. > I'm sure most people like "fortune", but how upset could they get if they > have to pick it out of the ports list to install it? One of the advantages of the FreeBSD CD is that is has a pretty good selection of software in the "out of the box" installs. Some of us don't like infinitely customizing our system and appreciate the judgment that has gone into the standard CDROM configurations. This is a selling point for FreeBSD in my view. A discussion of what should be in the standard installs (as opposed to ports or optional packages) seems perfectly appropriate. Not everyone likes building their systems from scratch. This is a little off-topic, but one thing I appreciate is that every time I have installed FreeBSD I have not had to go out searching for tcpdump. It is just there, and this reflects a certain viewpoint on the part of the CDROM authors. In contrast, with Slackware I have to shuffle through 4 or 6 cdroms, still can't find tcpdump and then have to wander around Sunsite until I locate the damn thing. How a distribution is set up *is* important. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 22:34:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15711 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:34:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trojanhorse.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15705 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:34:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by trojanhorse.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02057; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:17:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:17:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Greg Lehey , Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <5101.878612795@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has to be out of the country? On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > If nobody else comes up, I'll do it, as long as the traffic isn't too > > much (I'm on a 33.6 kb/s link). > > I honestly hope we can do better than that. :-) > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 22:36:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15945 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:36:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15892 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA01315; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:05:47 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971104170547.62100@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:05:47 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <5101.878612795@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Jamil J. Weatherbee on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 09:17:41PM -0800 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 09:17:41PM -0800, Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: >>> If nobody else comes up, I'll do it, as long as the traffic isn't too >>> much (I'm on a 33.6 kb/s link). >> >> I honestly hope we can do better than that. :-) > Has to be out of the country? Not really. If you want to, go for it. I'm sure you'll know how to fight off the corporate lawyers. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 23:04:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17513 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:04:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17506 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:04:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: from gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.8.7/RBI-Z14) with ESMTP id IAA25412; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:04:04 +0100 (MET) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA12703; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:19:29 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971104081929.11224@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:19:29 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies To: Terry Lambert Cc: John Milford , kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gcc and bitfields References: <199711021618.IAA02063@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> <199711040230.TAA14861@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199711040230.TAA14861@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 02:30:23AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 02:30:23AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > By default gcc pads structures to make make the size a multiple of 4 bytes. > > Try: > > > > struct C_OPEN { > > int a; > > int b; > > unsigned xdt:1; > > unsigned reserved:15; > > } __attribute__ ((packed)); > > > Or you can keep the code portable to DOS by not using the bogus > GNUish namespace intrusion "__attribute__": > > #pragma pack(1) > struct C_OPEN { > int a; > int b; > unsigned xdt:1; > unsigned reserved:15; > }; > #pragma pack(4) > /* > * GCC will take "pack()" (no arguments) to reset; I don't remember > * if MSVC++ can, however... you should check, and use the no argument > * version, if possible. > */ > > > Also: > cd /sys/i386/include > grep pragma *.h > > ...there's already precedent favoring "#pragma pack()" over > "__attribute__" in FreeBSD. > Yeah, I prefer that also. But: # grep __attrib * segments.h: unsigned sd_lobase:24 __attribute__ ((packed)); segments.h: unsigned rd_base:32 __attribute__ ((packed)); /* base address */ > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. -- --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 23:10:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18112 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:10:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18103 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:10:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: from gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.8.7/RBI-Z14) with ESMTP id IAA25591; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:10:42 +0100 (MET) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA12745; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:26:11 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971104082611.29224@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:26:11 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies To: Mike Smith Cc: Christoph Kukulies , freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: still mmap and my driver References: <19971102090752.08503@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> <199711030108.LAA00713@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199711030108.LAA00713@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 11:38:21AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 11:38:21AM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 02, 1997 at 03:39:24PM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > Things are still weird with my driver ISA memory mapping. > > > > I noticed that the space I need to map is 16386 bytes > > > > from C8000 on. I changed isa_device id->id_msize to have 16386. > > > > And I have an iosiz 0x4000 in my config file now. > > > > > > > > I still get a kernel panic, when I access 0xca000 in the driver. > > > > > > > > Did I still overlook anything? > > > > > > The details of the "panic". Was it really a panic? Do you perhaps > > > mean that it was a page fault (probably good ol' trap 12)? > > > > Sure. I mean page fault because it cannot access 0xca000. > > It happens during the driver probe phase in the portion of code > > I wrote. It's quite obvious that it's because the page is not > > available. The kernel trap 12 was perfectly right: I was using the wrong address (not the kva, but the physical in one place). I got it now. Accessing the ISA memory through the kernel still uses a virtual address, mapped to 0xf0000000. > > This doesn't make a great deal of sense, unfortunately. If the correct > window is being mapped for your driver, it should work. It sounds like > the mapping isn't being done right. Source for your probe/attach > available? > > mike > -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 23:30:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19314 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:30:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19309 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:30:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA18134; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd018129; Tue Nov 4 07:24:41 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:22:50 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Simon Shapiro cc: Terry Lambert , gopu@global.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: Help in data recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > Hi Terry Lambert; On 04-Nov-97 you wrote: > > > Surely Julian didn't want you to run fdisk on a tape drive. :-) So > > > just type `fdisk', and it will pick up the first disk for you. I considered whether one would wan tot do that, but moderne filesystems are so dependent on having accurate rrandom placement, and the tape systems so divergent in how well they can position, that I decided not to try tempt the user. I therefore actually DELETED what support htere was in the system for mounting (in the FS sense) a block device that was actually a tape. If the possitionning gets better, it might be possible to add a possitionable block interface. Personally I have better things to do with my 5 minutes per week of free time. > > > > If the manufacturer didn't want me to put a filesystem on a device, > > then they'd make it so the device wasn't block addressable. Otherwise > > it gets an FS... > > > > mount -t ansitape /dev/rst0 /mnt been done, the perpertators should have been shot.. > > > > 8-) 8-) > > He is laughing and I am crying :-)) > > This was the standard mode of operation as recently as the Tahoe project. > But really was the only way to install Unix on a PDP11. You mount the tape > and watch in amazement as the hours go by. The amazement came from the > fact that it actually booted. smart people loaded a running system, with a ram disk, idled it, wrote the whole thing to tape, and prefixed it with a loader that knew how to read the image.. loading took 10 seconds and you had an up and running configured system.. time for PHK to jump in with the origins of the 'beer-ware licence' here. We used to do this under AMOS running on LSI-11 processors. (dammed if I can remember what we called it though) julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 23:36:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19766 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19759 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:36:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id CAA00454; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:36:34 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711040736.CAA00454@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] In-Reply-To: <345E978D.167EB0E7@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Nov 3, 97 07:33:33 pm" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:36:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Elischer said: > oops I sent this to the wrong address before.. > > participants: > jallison: Samba guru: > Andrew Tridgell: wrote Sambe.. Linux hacker > Julian: yours truely: > .... > > Linux 2.1.57 on a P120 > fcntl: 21.3006 secs > ipc: 93.9982 secs > > FreeBSD 2.2.2 on a 200MHz pentium > fcntl: 3.16579 secs > ipc: 2.63504 secs > > Linux 2.0.30 on a PPro200 > fcntl: 12.2177 secs > ipc: 50.4559 secs > My results with FBSD-current on PPro200 UP kernel: fcntl: 10.735 secs ipc: 9.17823 secs SMP kernel: fcntl: 17.8355 secs ipc: 9.10841 secs It appears that the 200MHz Pentium results are for a really fast machine :-). Is there a chance that there was an error in the Pentium test? Or are the results correct? (Sometimes Pentiums are paradoxically faster than PPro's.) I just want to make sure that people aren't misinformed that FreeBSD is *that* much faster than Linux... John From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 3 23:41:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20134 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:41:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20128 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA04818; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:40:55 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711040740.IAA04818@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 3, 97 02:33:04 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:40:54 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.dk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who wrote: > Unless there are any truly serious objections, I'm going to starting > campaigning vigorously in core for the complete removal of this rather > useless collection of games which has gotten us in trouble not once > but now TWICE upon receipt of a letter from Hasbro's legal council > stating that we are violating the trademark on "Boggle", a Hasbro > game. Couldn't we just shot the US lawyers one by one ?? THAT would take care of alot of this shit, sigh... > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). Remove games and put fortune in /usr/bin ?? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 00:00:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA21615 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:00:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21582; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:00:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA18642; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd018638; Tue Nov 4 07:52:54 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:51:03 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] In-Reply-To: <199711040736.CAA00454@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > Julian Elischer said: > > Linux 2.1.57 on a P120 > > fcntl: 21.3006 secs > > ipc: 93.9982 secs > > > > FreeBSD 2.2.2 on a 200MHz pentium should read PPro200 > > fcntl: 3.16579 secs > > ipc: 2.63504 secs > > > > Linux 2.0.30 on a PPro200 > > fcntl: 12.2177 secs > > ipc: 50.4559 secs > > > > My results with FBSD-current on PPro200 > > UP kernel: > fcntl: 10.735 secs > ipc: 9.17823 secs > > SMP kernel: > fcntl: 17.8355 secs > ipc: 9.10841 secs > > It appears that the 200MHz Pentium results are for a really fast > machine :-). Is there a chance that there was an error in the > Pentium test? Or are the results correct? (Sometimes Pentiums > are paradoxically faster than PPro's.) I just want to make sure > that people aren't misinformed that FreeBSD is *that* much faster > than Linux.. Actually it was a 200MHz PPro. the difference is that it was 2.2.2 We seem to have slowed it down by a factor of 3 :( I saw the test run several times.. it really did return in 3 seconds. > > John > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 00:06:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22002 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:06:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21981; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:06:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id DAA00689; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:06:08 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711040806.DAA00689@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] In-Reply-To: from Julian Elischer at "Nov 3, 97 11:51:03 pm" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:06:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Elischer said: > > Actually it was a 200MHz PPro. > the difference is that it was 2.2.2 > We seem to have slowed it down by a factor of 3 :( > Hmmm... :-(. It would be interesting to figure out what has gone wrong. > > I saw the test run several times.. > it really did return in 3 seconds. > Wow... -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 00:10:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22298 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:10:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22291; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:10:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18835; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd018833; Tue Nov 4 08:05:00 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:03:09 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] In-Reply-To: <199711040736.CAA00454@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > Julian Elischer said: > > oops I sent this to the wrong address before.. > > > > participants: > > jallison: Samba guru: > > Andrew Tridgell: wrote Sambe.. Linux hacker > > Julian: yours truely: > > .... > > > > Linux 2.1.57 on a P120 > > fcntl: 21.3006 secs > > ipc: 93.9982 secs > > > > FreeBSD 2.2.2 on a 200MHz pentium > > fcntl: 3.16579 secs > > ipc: 2.63504 secs > > > > Linux 2.0.30 on a PPro200 > > fcntl: 12.2177 secs > > ipc: 50.4559 secs > > > > My results with FBSD-current on PPro200 > > UP kernel: > fcntl: 10.735 secs > ipc: 9.17823 secs > > SMP kernel: > fcntl: 17.8355 secs > ipc: 9.10841 secs > > It appears that the 200MHz Pentium results are for a really fast > machine :-). Is there a chance that there was an error in the > Pentium test? Or are the results correct? (Sometimes Pentiums > are paradoxically faster than PPro's.) I just want to make sure > that people aren't misinformed that FreeBSD is *that* much faster > than Linux... I just tried 2.2.0 (approx) on a pentium 90 I didn't have IPC compiled in, so I just did fcntl. yielding 7.22 secs. looks like we slowed it down more than a bit.. > > John > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 00:18:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22966 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:18:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from hokkshideh.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh.jetcafe.org [207.155.21.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22956 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:18:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh.jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh.jetcafe.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA15207; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:18:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711040818.AAA15207@hokkshideh.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:18:19 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "JKH" == Jordan K Hubbard writes: > What corporations? You have a list of all parties who might > conceivably have a trademark infringement problem with us? Are you > willing to do the work of tracking down and contacting all of these > people? In that case, what is compress still doing in FreeBSD? Are you -sure- there are no non-games trademarked programs in the source? How about patented algorithms? > If not, I'm still going to go for "remove the games" as the only > *effective* solution since pie-in-the-sky suggestions like yours > avail us naught. I think you are being heavy handed and pessimistic. I -like- rogue and larn, and I don't think I'm alone. Why not just remove boggle? Or, go ahead and let lawyers dictate the code you write. After all, they are the ones you must serve, eh? ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet Learn from the mistakes of others. You don't have time to make them all yourself. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 01:06:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA26076 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:06:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dog.farm.org (dog.farm.org [209.66.103.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26070 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dog.farm.org!dk) Received: (from dk@localhost) by dog.farm.org (8.7.5/dk#3) id BAA27663; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:09:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:09:00 -0800 (PST) From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk Message-Id: <199711040909.BAA27663@dog.farm.org> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, dk@farm.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Newsgroups: cs-monolit.gated.lists.freebsd.hackers Organization: FARM Computing Association Reply-To: dk+@ua.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <5124.878612921@time.cdrom.com> you wrote: > > I would get behind a proposal to eliminate all the real "games" while leaving > > the rest, but I strongly oppose deleting the whole directory. > But as you just said yourself, those things which fall into the > "useful" category also AREN'T GAMES, so why the heck would you want to > preserve /usr/src/games strictly for a family of utilities which don't > even belong there? > By all means, move the misfiled items into /usr/src/usr.bin or > wherever they belong as non-games, but don't preserve this hierarchy > for the very worst of reasons, please! While you are there, don't forget to remove or rename /usr/ports/web because the word `web' is a trademark of Microsoft (they bought the company with this name some time ago.) Heck, nuke /bin/sh. Do you remember those gas stations? I am wondering where this american legal braindamage can lead us. As for me, a system without fortune and adventure is not a BSD Unix. ;-) -- quote of the day: ` From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 01:16:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27130 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:16:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27125 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA10031; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:16:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971104011630.17437@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:16:30 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: portal pid not correct... References: <19971102014238.14394@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> <199711040212.TAA14153@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199711040212.TAA14153@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 02:12:36AM +0000 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert scribbled this message on Nov 4: > > I took a look at the code.. and basicly it doesn't become a daemon before > > tring to mount the fs... and this is understandable else you can't return > > a failed mount... > > > > now as I see this, there are a couple ways to fix this... > > a) just become a daemon and then mount, this isn't very attrative > > as the error doesn't get reported > > b) do something were it will fork off the child, child will > > immediately SIGSTOP itself, then parent will mount, and then > > parent will SIGCONT the process for normal execution, or kill > > it off if the mount failed. > > c) insert your idea hear > > > > comments? ideas? > > Use vfork for the side effect before child exit/exec. Man vfork for > details. but I thought that the child ran until it either exit'd of exec'd? how would the parent mount it while the child waited? from man vfork: The parent process is suspended while the child is using its resources. also, the pipe idea is a good one, but why would it be better than the my signal routine? it sounds like more code as you have to do file descriptor tracking... the signal way, you would only add about 5 lines of code the the program (and then a few more as we can't use daemon anymore :( )... well.. I have my implementation working right now... diff is a bit large as I had to indent a block of code... my patch: http://resnet.uoregon.edu:6971/~jmg/FreeBSD/mount_portal.patch (it also includes a missing header for the declaration of umask) -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 01:19:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27264 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:19:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27252 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:18:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08779; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:18:50 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA25920; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:18:50 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:18:50 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711040918.KAA25920@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: sos@FreeBSD.dk CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Søren Schmidt's message of Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:40:54 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> <199711040740.IAA04818@sos.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > > moved). > > Remove games and put fortune in /usr/bin ?? I'm behind this (if I happen to get a vote). Pity to loose the history (for source code antiquarians), though :-( Eivind. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 01:30:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27912 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:30:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (dynamic51.pm01.san-mateo.best.com [205.149.174.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27903 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id BAA03589; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:30:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971104013003.13856@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:30:03 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: "David E. Cross" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <4964.878612091@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from David E. Cross on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 11:10:01PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 11:10:01PM -0500, David E. Cross wrote: > On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > And since when was rot13 a "game", anyway? A pretty boring game, if > > you ask me :) > > > > Jordan > > A friend and I had great fun in finding out all of the english words that > have a rot13 pair, like irk <-> vex. I have the list somewhere. > Must have been a damn slow day at the office ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 01:45:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA28875 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:45:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA28863 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:45:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA07652; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:44:49 -0800 (PST) To: jbryant@tfs.net cc: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM (Gary Kendall), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:18:37 CST." <199711040118.TAA03476@argus.tfs.net> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:44:49 -0800 Message-ID: <7648.878636689@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > well, how about these suggestions: > > Point out EVERY MS-DOG/WINBLOWZ version to these corporations, > and tell them to go for the real numbers... > > Ask them to write a FreeBSD version. Failing this, cite the > fact that since they fail to support the market, they thus have > abandoned it. All after that is fair play. > > Also point out that they have had how long to complain? How > long has boggle been part of BSD? Ignorance is not an excuse for them > either, especially if a profit is not being made. None of these suggestions are the least bit viable, sorry. The legal beagles who contacted us neither know nor care about any of these things. They merely have a box to check and will continue coming after us until those boxes are checked. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 01:46:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA28958 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:46:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA28947 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:46:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA07669; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:46:20 -0800 (PST) To: Marc Slemko cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:37:25 MST." Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:46:20 -0800 Message-ID: <7666.878636780@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I would miss /usr/games/rot13; after all, it is all I get for encyryption > in the base install. Don't tell me pathetic US laws will remove this one > too. And would you care to also enlighten us as to why rot13 is even in "games" at all? How often do you use this utility for gaming purposes? :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 01:49:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29204 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:49:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29198 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:49:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA07684; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:48:52 -0800 (PST) To: Charles Mott cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:28:34 MST." Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:48:51 -0800 Message-ID: <7680.878636931@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is the core of your argement that you might have to remove > additional games in the future and so let's just get it all > over with now? Sick of those pesky lawyers and their cease > and desist letters? That's not the core issue, though it's one argument for their removal. Another is that they're basically useless and used by very few, my point that those few can still get them from ports under my suggested plan of action apparently being lost by everyone in their rush to see this issue emotionally rather than logically. > Sometimes the historical anachronisms come in handy, such as > rot13 (which seems to have vanished already). And which doesn't need to be in games in the first place - it was misfiled. Again, if people were thinking with their brains rather than their glads, this would become swiftly apparent to even the dullest child among us. > your way), I can't criticize you for wanting to reduce your > workload. But aren't you at least a little concerned that > your actions might drive "Snob Art Genre" to Linux? No. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 01:54:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29671 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:54:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29665 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:54:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA07787; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:54:32 -0800 (PST) To: Ted Faber cc: jbryant@tfs.net, gdk@ccomp.inode.COM (Gary Kendall), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:24:47 PST." <199711040224.SAA08017@tnt.isi.edu> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:54:32 -0800 Message-ID: <7783.878637272@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Part of having a trademark means that they have to protect it. In > fact, the law all but forces them to come after us. Failure for them > to come after FreeBSD for infringing their trademark after they knew > we were infringing it could open them up to losing a case against > someone who really *was* trying to steal their trademark for profit. > Kind of like my little brother got to do lots of stuff because Mom let > me do 'em first. Thank you, this sums up the situation very nicely for those here who are ignorant of trademark law. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 02:12:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00853 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:12:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (root@gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com [207.113.159.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00842 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:12:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdonl@tsc.tdk.com) Received: from sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (root@sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.191]) by gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA21023; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.194]) by sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA03240; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA11903; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:10:31 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199711041010.CAA11903@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:10:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: Stephen McKay "Re: portal pid not correct..." (Nov 4, 2:31pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Stephen McKay , Terry Lambert Subject: Re: portal pid not correct... Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 4, 2:31pm, Stephen McKay wrote: } Subject: Re: portal pid not correct... } To reliably coordinate with your child process use a pipe. A single byte } sent through the pipe could be your "go" signal. If you want more, then } pick several different byte values to represent different actions to take. } If the pipe closes unexpectedly, you know that the other party died horribly. } And one of your byte codes could indicate an error and be followed by the } errno and/or an error message. I've used this trick before. If you don't need to send a message other than "go", you can just close the write end of the pipe, and the process at the read end of the pipe knows that it's time to proceed when it sees the EOF. This was safe in the situation where I used it. In my case I wanted a child process to wait for its parent to close the socket created by accept() before writing data to the socket. If the child didn't wait, it would be possible for child to write its data and exit before the parent closed the socket. This could cause the parent to hang in close() until the network buffers drained. --- Truck From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 02:24:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA01705 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:24:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA01699 for hackers; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:24:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hsu) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:24:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199711041024.CAA01699@hub.freebsd.org> To: hackers Subject: Re: gettimeofday() overhead Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Since timing measurements don't have to be >particularly accurate for libalias, does anyone >have an idea how time might be measured >entirely in user space? If you had threads, you could have a thread which calls gettimeofday() once a second, storing it into a variable. This is what Sun's Java Web Server does to avoid calling gettimeofday() on each web hit. If you knew where the time was in kernel memory, you could map it into your address space and read it. This is what Digital's X server does to timestamp X events. You could try setting a timer to go off once a second and update your cached time of day variable. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 02:26:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA01799 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA01794 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:25:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA08222; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:25:41 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Hayes cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:18:19 PST." <199711040818.AAA15207@hokkshideh.jetcafe.org> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 02:25:41 -0800 Message-ID: <8218.878639141@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In that case, what is compress still doing in FreeBSD? Are you -sure- > there are no non-games trademarked programs in the source? How about > patented algorithms? I'm sure we'll get to those in due time. > I think you are being heavy handed and pessimistic. I -like- rogue and > larn, and I don't think I'm alone. It's not a question of what you like, it's a question of how to distribute this stuff in a more effective and less "exposed" manner. Just because a topic pisses you off should not prevent you from thinking of and implementing reasonable compromises. > Or, go ahead and let lawyers dictate the code you write. After all, > they are the ones you must serve, eh? No, they are simply the ones who sue. I think you've had too little experience with the sharp end of our wonderful legal system to really comment knowledgably on this whole topic, so why don't we just agree to disagree here? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 02:37:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA02520 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:37:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02515 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:37:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA08342; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) To: dk+@ua.net cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, dk@farm.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:09:00 PST." <199711040909.BAA27663@dog.farm.org> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 02:36:22 -0800 Message-ID: <8338.878639782@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > While you are there, don't forget to remove or rename /usr/ports/web > because the word `web' is a trademark of Microsoft (they bought the > company with this name some time ago.) Heck, nuke /bin/sh. Do you > remember those gas stations? I think you're simply being silly now. > I am wondering where this american legal braindamage can lead us. Actually, I wish people would stop targeting this as exclusively American legal braindamage as such is simply not a fair statement to make. The German and French legal systems, for example, are at least as braindead in their own ways and I seem to recall a german lawyer causing all kinds of havoc a few months back with his own trademark suits. The russians would also no doubt engage in such legal foolishness except for the tiny fact that they no longer have a legal system, that having been sold to the russian mafia a number of years back. All things considered, I think I'll take the threat of a lawsuit over the threat of kidnapping and a bullet in my head when my relatives can't raise the ransom money. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 02:41:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA02962 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from hokkshideh.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh.jetcafe.org [207.155.21.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02949 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:41:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh.jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh.jetcafe.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA17501; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:40:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711041040.CAA17501@hokkshideh.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Dave Hayes , Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 02:40:27 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "JKH" == Jordan K Hubbard writes: >> I think you are being heavy handed and pessimistic. I -like- rogue >> and larn, and I don't think I'm alone. > It's not a question of what you like, Of course. You asked for objections, and how -dare- I suggest a preference? What -was- I thinking? After all, I'm just a user. > it's a question of how to distribute this stuff in a more effective > and less "exposed" manner. Just because a topic pisses you off > should not prevent you from thinking of and implementing reasonable > compromises. It doesn't piss me off, I just think the compromise you propose is unreasonable given the good freeware in the system. Why not just remove the questionable games? >> Or, go ahead and let lawyers dictate the code you write. After all, >> they are the ones you must serve, eh? > No, they are simply the ones who sue. I think you've had too little > experience with the sharp end of our wonderful legal system to > really comment knowledgably on this whole topic, so why don't we > just agree to disagree here? So let me get this straight. You -presume- I've had too little experience, so because of this you are going to define me as not being able to provide a requested opinion? Gee. I think the game that triggered this is appropriately named. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet "Why, Nasrudin, don't you spend some time practicing higher forms of thought in order to improve yourself?" "For the same reason that lions don't catch fish." "Oh, you mean that you are not equipped for it?" "No, I only mean that I haven't got around to it yet." From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 03:01:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA03965 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:01:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc8.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA03957 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:01:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.90.6]) by ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01311; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:01:15 +0100 (CET) Received: (from thomas@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA00200; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:01:14 +0100 (CET) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Charles Mott , Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <7680.878636931@time.cdrom.com> From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 04 Nov 1997 12:01:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:48:51 -0800 Message-ID: <873elcsz2e.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.15 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > Another is that they're basically useless and used by very few, my > point that those few can still get them from ports under my suggested > plan of action apparently being lost by everyone in their rush to see > this issue emotionally rather than logically. Well, we could simply port the bsdgames.tar.gz which has been hanging around in various Linux mirrors for ages. :-] tg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 03:08:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04221 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:08:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from mrynet.com (staylor@mrynet.com [206.154.101.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04216 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:08:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from staylor@mrynet.com) Received: (from staylor@localhost) by mrynet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id DAA20172; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:08:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711041108.DAA20172@mrynet.com> From: staylor@mrynet.com (Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:08:20 +0000 In-Reply-To: Mail dated Nov 3, 8:05pm. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [In "Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections?", on Nov 3, 8:05pm, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:] > > If nobody else comes up, I'll do it, as long as the traffic isn't too > > much (I'm on a 33.6 kb/s link). > > I honestly hope we can do better than that. :-) > > Jordan Is 128k better? :D Half-serious, but lemme know if no other alternative. BTW, Jordan, You inject these controversies just for the response, don't you? *grin* -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor@mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov Westlake Village, CA USA VIENOTI LATVIJAI! (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 03:11:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04322 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:11:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04314 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:10:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA08689; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:08:28 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Hayes cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 02:40:27 PST." <199711041040.CAA17501@hokkshideh.jetcafe.org> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 03:08:28 -0800 Message-ID: <8685.878641708@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It's not a question of what you like, > > Of course. You asked for objections, and how -dare- I suggest a > preference? What -was- I thinking? After all, I'm just a user. You are quoting this out of context. As I said, "It's not a question of what you like, it's a question of how to distribute this stuff .." This had nothing to do with your statement of preference and any objections I may have had to it, I was simply saying that you were arguing at cross purposes to the current direction of this thread, that being how we might package all of games in order to avoid this problem in the future. You think we like dealing with this twice in 6 months? You don't think it might be prudent, given the low benefit-to-risk ratio of /usr/src/games, to take steps to simply avoid a repetition of this problem in a known trouble spot? No consumer product manufacturer is going to sue over "ls" since it has no place in their context, but call it games/ls or movies/the_story_of_ls.mov and Hasbro is most definitely going to come after you if they have a game called "ls - fun for the whole family" or if Lewdie Productions has just done a movie called "The story of ls" [XXX] about lesbian strippers or something. It's all a question of being able to reasonably demonstrate a trademark conflict, both of the above situations clearly falling into said category. > > No, they are simply the ones who sue. I think you've had too little > > experience with the sharp end of our wonderful legal system to > > really comment knowledgeably on this whole topic, so why don't we > > just agree to disagree here? > > So let me get this straight. You -presume- I've had too little > experience, so because of this you are going to define me as not being > able to provide a requested opinion? Again, let me clarify: You and several others in this discussion haven't really been providing "the requested opinion" so much as you've been taking the opportunity to give me a fair bit questionable legal advice ("just fuck the lawyers, man!") which I have been reacting to with semi-vitriolic paragraphs like the above rather than being able to spend the time more constructively discussing the real issue here, which is how to deal with this situation now and in the conceivable future, not just for "boggle" today. Perhaps I should have chosen a different subject, considering what the post which accompanied it segued into. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 03:15:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04516 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:15:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04509 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:15:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id KAA19926; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:58:57 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199711040958.KAA19926@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:58:56 +0100 (MET) Cc: dave@jetcafe.org, gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <8218.878639141@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 4, 97 02:25:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > No, they are simply the ones who sue. I think you've had too little > experience with the sharp end of our wonderful legal system to really ^^^ I thought you were not american, Jordan! Cheers Luigi From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 03:17:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04646 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:17:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04638 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA08749; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:16:40 -0800 (PST) To: Thomas Gellekum cc: Charles Mott , Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "04 Nov 1997 12:01:13 +0100." <873elcsz2e.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 03:16:40 -0800 Message-ID: <8745.878642200@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, we could simply port the bsdgames.tar.gz which has been hanging > around in various Linux mirrors for ages. :-] Heh heh. :-) Not a bad suggestion, but for the fact that this dist is kind of anemic really (at least in slackware 3.4, where I just looked). I'd actually also rather have that list from NetBSD that someone posted - it looked far more complete than ours, if all of those compile. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 03:17:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04709 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:17:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04700 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id VAA22054; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:33:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma022049; Tue, 4 Nov 97 21:32:46 +1000 Received: from localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au (localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14283; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:17:16 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199711041117.VAA14283@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au: localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Charles Mott cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Maximum number of forked processes References: In-Reply-To: from Charles Mott at "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 02:27:17 +0000" Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 21:17:15 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 4th November 1997, Charles Mott wrote: >On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 04:16:36PM -0700, Charles Mott wrote: >> > How does one control the maximum number of forked processes from within >> > the parent process? >> >> setrlimit(2) allows you to limit >> the number of processes (=forks) per user, but I don't know of >> anything that would limit the number of children of a process. >Tentatively, I am thinking of incrementing a counter when a process is >forked and decrementing it when a SIGCLD is received. However, I don't >know what standard procedure is in this matter. This is often tried. Some people even try to defend it. But the truth of the matter is that SIGCHLD may be delivered more or less times than the number of exiting processes since it is delivered for stopped children and since only one signal is delivered even if multiple children exit before the signal is processed. The correct way to spot child deaths is with wait() or any of the wait variants we have available nowadays. Of course, the SIGCHLD can give you a hint that wait() is necessary. :-) Of the variants available, wait() is old and portable to the early days of Unix, wait3() is traditional BSD but I can only remember back to 4.2 :-) waitpid() is POSIX, so probably blessed by most people wait4() is BSD 4.4 or maybe Sun derived (Help me out here!) waitid() is SysV (and we don't have it) You probably want waitpid() in a loop in the SIGCHLD handler. Or better yet, if you have some select() loop you can detect EINTR, check the flag set by your SIGCHLD handler, and apply waitpid() as appropriate. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 03:30:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA05351 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:30:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (root@gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com [207.113.159.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA05340 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:30:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdonl@tsc.tdk.com) Received: from sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (root@sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.191]) by gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA21424; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.194]) by sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA04480; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA12521; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:30:33 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199711041130.DAA12521@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:30:33 -0800 In-Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney "Re: portal pid not correct..." (Nov 4, 1:16am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: John-Mark Gurney , Terry Lambert Subject: Re: portal pid not correct... Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 4, 1:16am, John-Mark Gurney wrote: } Subject: Re: portal pid not correct... } > > b) do something were it will fork off the child, child will } > > immediately SIGSTOP itself, then parent will mount, and then } > > parent will SIGCONT the process for normal execution, or kill } > > it off if the mount failed. } also, the pipe idea is a good one, but why would it be better than the } my signal routine? it sounds like more code as you have to do file } descriptor tracking... the signal way, you would only add about 5 lines } of code the the program (and then a few more as we can't use daemon } anymore :( )... There's a race condition in your signal algorithm. What happens if the parent runs first and sends the SIGCONT before the child manages to SIGSTOP itself? --- Truck From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 03:32:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA05518 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:32:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA05510 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:32:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA08782; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 03:17:32 -0800 (PST) To: Luigi Rizzo cc: dave@jetcafe.org, gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 10:58:56 +0100." <199711040958.KAA19926@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 03:17:32 -0800 Message-ID: <8778.878642252@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > No, they are simply the ones who sue. I think you've had too little > > experience with the sharp end of our wonderful legal system to really > ^^^ > > I thought you were not american, Jordan! Sorry to disappoint you, Luigi. I'm afraid so. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 04:05:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA06789 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:05:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA06781 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:05:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home ([208.141.171.158]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA28691; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:05:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:04:57 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <7680.878636931@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Sometimes the historical anachronisms come in handy, such as > > rot13 (which seems to have vanished already). > > And which doesn't need to be in games in the first place - it was > misfiled. Again, if people were thinking with their brains rather > than their glads, this would become swiftly apparent to even the > dullest child among us. I can't locate rot13 anywhere on my my disk, and I used a a standard install from the 2.2.2 CD. Where did you hide it? Actually, I can see rot13 being a game of sorts. Also, it can be used to test caesar. I think you should leave the leftover fragments of computer history around. After all, those ancient guys from the 60s and 70s did invent unix. Ever play one of the trek variants on a 10 character per second teletype? It would make an amusing retro-experience these days. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 04:31:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA08019 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:31:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA08012 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home ([208.141.171.158]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA32082 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:31:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:30:37 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: hackers@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gettimeofday() overhead In-Reply-To: <199711041024.CAA01699@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Jeffrey Hsu wrote: > If you had threads, you could have a thread which calls gettimeofday() > once a second, storing it into a variable. This is what Sun's Java > Web Server does to avoid calling gettimeofday() on each web hit. > > If you knew where the time was in kernel memory, you could map it > into your address space and read it. This is what Digital's X > server does to timestamp X events. For some reason, method number 2 intrigues me. Maybe because it is probably the lowest overhead yet the most accurate. How would one go about doing this? Is it dependent on the specific kernel build, or would there be a means of automatically locating and mapping the kernel time variable? > You could try setting a timer to go off once a second and update your > cached time of day variable. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 05:17:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA10434 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:17:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA10425 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199711041311.IAA06435@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:14:50 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Unless there are any truly serious objections, I'm going to starting > campaigning vigorously in core for the complete removal of this rather > useless collection of games which has gotten us in trouble not once > but now TWICE upon receipt of a letter from Hasbro's legal council > stating that we are violating the trademark on "Boggle", a Hasbro > game. > > It looks like the folks at UCB who originally put this collection > together were as ignorant as it's possible to get about trademarks, > and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before another game from this > collection joins the ranks of tetris and boggle as "things which screw > up our CVS tree when we're forced to remove all traces of the damn > things." > > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). > > Jordan > Rogue...rename it if you have to, but save rogue. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net Abusenet: The Misinformation Superhighway From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 05:19:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA10596 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:19:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA10576 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:19:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00406; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:45:13 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711041315.XAA00406@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Charles Mott cc: hackers@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gettimeofday() overhead In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 05:30:37 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 23:45:11 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If you knew where the time was in kernel memory, you could map it > > into your address space and read it. This is what Digital's X > > server does to timestamp X events. > > For some reason, method number 2 intrigues me. Maybe because it > is probably the lowest overhead yet the most accurate. > > How would one go about doing this? Is it dependent on the > specific kernel build, or would there be a means of automatically > locating and mapping the kernel time variable? You could locate an appropriate variable in kernel space using the kernel symbol table. Unfortunately, this requires access to /dev/kmem, and thus your process must be running as root. IMHO this isn't really an acceptable tradeoff unless the application already requires it. OTOH, if +/- 1 second is good enough, a once-a-second timer and a local call to gettimeofday() would be a simple and straightforward technique, as was also suggested. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 06:21:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA13466 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:21:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (serial.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA13459 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:21:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@diamond.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18372; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:19:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:19:46 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: Søren Schmidt cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <199711040740.IAA04818@sos.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Søren Schmidt wrote: > Couldn't we just shot the US lawyers one by one ?? Given the sheer number of the species we'd have to do groups of 100 or so of them at a time to get it done in our lifetimes. > THAT would take care of alot of this shit, sigh... That would take care of MANY, MANY problems. The only thing we need lawyers for is to protect us from other lawyers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 06:27:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA13746 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:27:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA13735 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:26:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA22339 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:26:32 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA12213; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:14:49 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971104151449.HT01430@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:14:49 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help in data recovery References: <19971103074838.HP19395@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199711040242.TAA15381@usr09.primenet.com> <19971104141753.14409@lemis.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19971104141753.14409@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Nov 4, 1997 14:17:53 +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > You miss the point. > > mount -t ansitape /dev/st0 /mnt Alas, it doesn't work. Our implementation of /dev/st0 is broken, you can't read anything from it. (And no, don't tell me /dev/st0 ain't there by default, that's the least of the problems.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 06:29:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA13949 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:29:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA13944 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:29:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13018; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:29:39 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA26896; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:29:37 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:29:37 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711041429.PAA26896@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Tue, 04 Nov 1997 03:08:28 -0800 Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <199711041040.CAA17501@hokkshideh.jetcafe.org> <8685.878641708@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You don't think it might be prudent, given the low benefit-to-risk > ratio of /usr/src/games, to take steps to simply avoid a repetition > of this problem in a known trouble spot? Just to give you another nice argument: There are some security headaches with the games; presently they are just minor nits, but still at cross purposes with a security goal[1]. If we unbundle them, they are much less of a problem, as much fewer people will have them. The problem in question is only of interest on heavily secured servers. Anybody that install a bunch of games from ports and allow untrusted user logins on a heavily secured server will have little sympathy from me. Eivind. [1] I'm not going to specify this goal in public; let the crackers strain their minds without me helping them. This is only a minor DoS attack. Trust Me. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 06:39:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA14351 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:39:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA14346 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:39:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id HAA24471; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:39:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA11778; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:41:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:41:31 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <7680.878636931@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Sometimes the historical anachronisms come in handy, such as > > rot13 (which seems to have vanished already). > > And which doesn't need to be in games in the first place - it was > misfiled. Again, if people were thinking with their brains rather > than their glads, this would become swiftly apparent to even the > dullest child among us. So, to seperate out the issues here, first form a list of everything that should be around but not in /usr/games because it isn't. Then propose moving those to usr.bin or wherever is appropriate for the particular program. After that, propose nuking what is left of /usr/games in favor of a port or whatever. I use some of the non-games in /usr/games for reasonably portable (on FreeBSD; ie. don't have to install this port or that port) shell scripts. They can be quite handy. I don't use any of the games in /usr/games for shell scripts. If I want them, I can install a port. That is my only objection to nuking /usr/games completely. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 06:54:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA14968 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:54:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA14959 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:54:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA20460; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:53:34 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:53:34 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jbryant@tfs.net, Gary Kendall , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <7648.878636689@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > well, how about these suggestions: > > > > Point out EVERY MS-DOG/WINBLOWZ version to these corporations, > > and tell them to go for the real numbers... > > > > Ask them to write a FreeBSD version. Failing this, cite the > > fact that since they fail to support the market, they thus have > > abandoned it. All after that is fair play. > > > > Also point out that they have had how long to complain? How > > long has boggle been part of BSD? Ignorance is not an excuse for them > > either, especially if a profit is not being made. > > None of these suggestions are the least bit viable, sorry. The legal > beagles who contacted us neither know nor care about any of these things. > They merely have a box to check and will continue coming after us until > those boxes are checked. So what? Write a letter to the company stating you want to discuss licenceing the right to distribute the game. And then refere the lawyers to that letter, decribing the situation as negociations being underway. And add a cron job to repeat that letter every other month. It will get thrown away as irrelevant, but who cares. > > Jordan > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 08:58:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21351 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:58:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua ([195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21337 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:57:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rssh@cam.grad.ipri.kiev.ua) Received: from cam.grad.ipri.kiev.ua (cam.grad.kiev.ua [195.5.25.54]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09008 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:58 GMT Message-ID: <345F7D18.E0BCBB5E@cam.grad.ipri.kiev.ua> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 19:52:56 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: Ruslan@shevchenko.kiev.ua X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: MB_CHAR_MAX not defined in include. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk constant MB_CHAR_MAX --- maximal length of multibyte letter is not defined somewhere in /usr/include/* ? 1. (ISO C requiare it). 2. what i must pass to mbtowc(3), if i don't know MB_VHAR_MAX ? P.S. it's in FreeBSD-stable. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 09:43:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24092 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:43:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ook.connect.ie (ook.connect.ie [194.106.128.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24087 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:43:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dec@ook.connect.ie) Received: from rincewind.connect.ie [194.106.128.3] (HELO rincewind) by ook.connect.ie (8.8.6/.44/NR) with SMTP id RAA05683 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:46:14 GMT Message-Id: <199711041746.RAA05683@ook.connect.ie> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Declan Kelly" Organization: Connect-Ireland Internet To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:46:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: A better WWW browser for X11 Reply-to: dec@connect.ie Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm a FreeBSD luser, who has to run windoze at work. I was just going to mail jkh, but it'll probably waste less of his vauable time if I just send it to the hackers list to be read or deleted. This is a "spread the word" message, so if you think there's a gap between Lynx and Netscape for FreeBSD, read on... Otherwise trash it. Lynx is my default browser, and I recently made room in /usr for Netscape 4 (seeing as they were kind enough to finally release a FreeBSD native version), but it's very bloated. Opera, the 900k browser for windoze, has been beating the bloatware, and it almost akes windoze worth loading! Now they're planning to release it for other platforms: more info from Project Magic: http://www.operasoftware.com/alt_os.html They're talking about doing a Mac, BeOS, OS/2 and X11 version, depending on how many people are prepared to pre-pay the shareware fee. They've had very positive response from the user community (especially OS/2 and Linux users - actually I had to ask them to change "for Linux" to "for X11", to widen the Unix appeal), and company support from Apple and Be. Unfortunately IBM aren't interested in supporting them (despite the fact that Opera under OS/2-WIN beats the crap out of Netscape/2), but their work on Opera for OS/2 is going ahead anyway. Their latest update reads: it is almost certain that the work on a Mac and OS/2 version will commence shortly, whereas we would need more support and interest from the Linux/X11 and BeOS community in order to make these a viable commercial and sustainable alternative. So if there's anything any of you can do to help spread the word (from a button on the FreeBSD WWW page to mentioning it on IRC in #nohelp :-) please paste the above URL into your browser and see if you think it's worthwhile. Or should we just wait for MSIE4's delayed Unix release? ;-) I've already mentioned the idea of putting the existing Windoze version of Opera on to WC CDROMs (they do kiosk versions of it aswell, and it's a great CD frontend) They will probably develop first for Linux, and might port it themselves, or hand it over to someone else to port it to FreeBSD. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 10:02:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25215 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:02:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from postoffice.onu.edu (postoffice.onu.edu [140.228.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25208 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:02:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from n-ludban@onu.edu) Received: from austin.onu.edu (austin.onu.edu [140.228.10.1]) by postoffice.onu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25496 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:01:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:01:40 -0500 (EST) From: Neil Ludban To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: How to limit SCSI speed? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I tried adding an external SCSI Zip drive to my system and the kernel would no longer load (it would very slowly get a few sectors, then give up). Suspecting bad termination or cable lengths, I looked up the specs and found out that the cables are too long for my ultra-scsi2 hard drive. After changing the controller's BIOS to limit the disk to 5 or 10MB/s, the kernel loaded OK, but then FreeBSD (2.2.5) re-probed everything and failed to read the disk at full speed. It gave a couple pages of failed command errors, then hung. So, is there any way to set the maximum speed the driver will negotiate? The only thing I could find was SCSI_NCR_MAX_SYNC in the undocumented section of LINT (the controller uses the ncr 53c875j chip). Being able to configure the maximum speed at boot would probably be a good idea, for diagnostics and to accomodate extra cable lengths when temporarily adding external devices. In my case, the ultra drive was a good deal, but I don't need the extra bandwidth and don't want any of the trouble of configuring an ultra chain. --Neil From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 10:28:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27044 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:28:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from hokkshideh.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh.jetcafe.org [207.155.21.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27037 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh.jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh.jetcafe.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24571; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:27:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711041827.KAA24571@hokkshideh.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Gary Kendall , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 10:27:51 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "JKH" == Jordan K Hubbard writes: >> > It's not a question of what you like, >> Of course. You asked for objections, and how -dare- I suggest a >> preference? What -was- I thinking? After all, I'm just a user. > You are quoting this out of context. As I said, "It's not a > question of what you like, it's a question of how to distribute this > stuff .." Context or not, look at the subject line. You asked for objections, I object to the freeware games not coming standard with FreeBSD. I cited the reasons as "I like those games". I do realize you have what you think are good reasons to remove all the games. > You think we like dealing with this twice in > 6 months? You don't think it might be prudent, given the low > benefit-to-risk ratio of /usr/src/games, to take steps to simply > avoid a repetition of this problem in a known trouble spot? There's our disagreement. You don't perceive games as a benefit. I do. >> So let me get this straight. You -presume- I've had too little >> experience, so because of this you are going to define me as not >> being able to provide a requested opinion? > Again, let me clarify: You and several others in this discussion > haven't really been providing "the requested opinion" so much as > you've been taking the opportunity to give me a fair bit > questionable legal advice ("just fuck the lawyers, man!") But I'm not a lawyer, nor was my contribution intended as legal advice (regardless of how you perceived it). I was simply questioning, admittedly in a backhanded way, the need to overreact based on a laywer letter. Yes, I think you are overreacting. No, you don't have to care that I think so. > which I have been reacting to with semi-vitriolic paragraphs like > the above rather than being able to spend the time more > constructively discussing the real issue here, which is how to deal > with this situation now and in the conceivable future, not just for > "boggle" today. You'll do what you think is right of course. All I can do is suggest that you not get rid of rogue, larn, and the other freeware games. > Perhaps I should have chosen a different subject, considering what > the post which accompanied it segued into. You are quite on the mark there. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it. :) ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet "Mulla, your donkey has disappeared!" "Thank goodness I wasn't on it at the time, otherwise I would have disappeared too!" From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 10:50:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28620 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:50:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28607 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12329; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:46:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:46:14 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Mike Smith cc: Brandon Gillespie , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /etc/*.conf file for daily/weekly/security etc maintenance In-Reply-To: <199711040448.PAA01232@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm not sure if you folks have seen this, but NetBSD has something like this for daily/weekly/monthly: # $NetBSD: daily.conf,v 1.2 1997/01/20 06:08:36 mycroft Exp $ # # see daily.conf(5) for more information. find_core=NO expire_news=NO purge_accounting=YES run_msgs=NO run_calendar=NO check_uucp=NO check_disks=YES check_mailq=NO check_network=YES run_fsck=NO run_rdist=NO run_security=YES It shouldn't matter too much where you put it, just so everything is all in one place... IMO, the NetBSD way is a bit messy as it adds three more files to an already-crowded /etc. Charles On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > Just propose your extensions to rc.conf; everything should be in there. > > > > I thought about it, but is it appropriate? rc.conf is for startup things, > > no? regular maintenance.. *shrug* > > rc.conf is for general parametric information; whether it be startup or > periodic. Things like the named flags etc. are consumed by the named.* > scripts and so forth. > > Unless there's a _really_ compelling reason, rc.conf is the way to go. > > mike > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 10:58:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29105 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:58:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from relay.hq.tis.com (firewall-user@relay.hq.tis.com [192.94.214.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29094 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:57:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cvance@tis.com) Received: by relay.hq.tis.com; id OAA08997; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from clipper.hq.tis.com(10.33.1.2) by relay.hq.tis.com via smap (4.0) id xma008995; Tue, 4 Nov 97 14:03:07 -0500 Received: from tis.com (skippy.hq.tis.com [10.33.112.187]) by clipper.hq.tis.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA26688; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:56:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711041856.NAA26688@clipper.hq.tis.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: cvance@tis.com Subject: absolute pathname in kernel Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:57:01 -0500 From: Chris Vance Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there any easy way to obtain an absolute pathname from within the kernel? I would like to calculate the absolute pathname during the execve system call. For the most part, shells and programs use a full pathname, but this doesn't necessarily have to be the case. There doesn't seem to be any simple way to get this information. Assuming no simple way exists, what is the next best solution. Just start from the vnode of the current directory and keep going up one until the root is reached? In doing this, how would a pathname components be extracted? Would I need to open and read the parent directory until a match on the current directory is found? thanks, chris. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 11:04:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29461 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29456 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:04:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13937; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:04:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd013932; Tue Nov 4 12:03:56 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19517; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:03:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711041903.MAA19517@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BIOS information preservation (was Re: >64MB) To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:03:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, mike@smith.net.au, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711040200.MAA00639@word.smith.net.au> from "Mike Smith" at Nov 4, 97 12:30:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Unfortunately, you need a Win32 (as you suggest) because there is a DLL > > involved in reading the Word Format documents. > > Is this DLL part of Win32, or part of WordPad? If the former, how does > MS's stance on pushing the Win32 API onto *nix platforms impact its > potential availability? (Actually, given that Willows can call Win32 > native DLL's even from *nix-mode, this may be less of a problem than it > sounds.) If you want to run Win95, you buy Win95. If you want to run UNIX, you buy UNIX, then you buy Win95. ...at least, that's how I think it's "supposed" to work. 8-(. If you look at the Winsock 2.0 SDK EULA, they've limited it to Windows NT and Windows 95 *only*; this is a new thing for them; I haven't seen this type of "attack license" from them before. I suspect they may be feeling Linux, or trying to keep MacOS or BeOS off balance. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 11:05:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29536 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:05:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29526 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:05:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13989; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:05:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd013972; Tue Nov 4 12:05:39 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19647; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:05:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711041905.MAA19647@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: gcc and bitfields To: kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Christoph Kukulies) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:05:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jwm@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19971104081929.11224@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from "Christoph Kukulies" at Nov 4, 97 08:19:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yeah, I prefer that also. > But: > > # grep __attrib * > segments.h: unsigned sd_lobase:24 __attribute__ ((packed)); > segments.h: unsigned rd_base:32 __attribute__ ((packed)); /* base address */ IMO, this should be fixed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 12:28:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04960 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:28:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.5.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04954 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13598; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:28:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd013594; Tue Nov 4 13:28:36 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25735; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:28:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711042028.NAA25735@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 3, 97 02:33:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unless there are any truly serious objections, I'm going to starting > campaigning vigorously in core for the complete removal of this rather > useless collection of games which has gotten us in trouble not once > but now TWICE upon receipt of a letter from Hasbro's legal council > stating that we are violating the trademark on "Boggle", a Hasbro > game. Send them a letter back telling them that it is a component of a package which you do not control, and that it came from UCB. Due dilligince would require they protect their trademark everywhere. Probably some anal lawyer somewhere has been tasked with defending trademarks in a space where they weren't defended in preparation for computer rehashes of old games. You could also inform them that you are in an unrelated market segment, and that the trademark is market segment specific (cv: Apple Records, Inc. vs. Apple Computer Corp.), and you would be happy to remove the offending software when they port their commercial game -- that is now entering the previously non-conflicting space -- to FreeBSD. It's a very bad precedent when you allow legal bullying that is not legitimate (the lack of a Hasbro computer game Boggle up to this point means that the conflict didn't exist before this point). The problem, of course, is that you're vunerable to legal bullying, so you are a terrible champion for the rest of us. 8-(. The other problem is that the bully could use this fact to control you (assuming you react like this each time), and it wouldn't matter if they had a legal leg to stand on, you'd have to cave in if you were running from a purely risk-analysis position. How long before Microsoft decides it doesn't like FreeBSD shipping WINE, or that the ability of a FreeBSD box to act as a Windows 95 server instead of making the customer buy an NT RAS server "causes significant devaluation of the good name of Microsoft due to lack of support for important features, like Microsoft proprietary compression and enhanced PPP option negotiation"? > It looks like the folks at UCB who originally put this collection > together were as ignorant as it's possible to get about trademarks, > and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before another game from this > collection joins the ranks of tetris and boggle as "things which screw > up our CVS tree when we're forced to remove all traces of the damn > things." Bullshit. Hasbro was not competing in the computer game space at the time the program was written, just as Apple Computer was not competing in the Music industry at the time they chose their name, and so was not in violation of the "Apple" trademark of "Apple Records". Even if Hasbro *does* compete in the DOS computer game space" until they start competing in the "FreeBSD computer game space", the trademark space is non-conflicting. You should read the man page on "boggle"; it was written in 1993 when it was just "Parker Brothers". So when are you going to remove all traces of "YP", it being in violation of the British Telecom trademark? > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). Move "boggle" to ports as well, then, and get it from gatekeeper.dec.com, if you are so damn paranoid. It's not so much as "where to start" that pisses me off, but "where you, personally, will stop". How non-critical to you, personally, does a standard-since-time-immemorial system component have to be before some legal Leprechaun waving what he claims is an invisible magic Shellaleigh (but is really his fist) can not get you to dike it out as a paniced reflexive reacion?!? Sorry, but this type of thing is too like the USL vs. UCB suit for me to be happy with it... 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 12:39:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05649 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:39:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05644 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:39:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00426; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:39:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from henrich) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:39:29 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199711042039.PAA00426@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: Don.Lewis@tsc.tdk.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: de0 errors Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hackers References: <63lrjc$491$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #1 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Bingo! I believe that a 21140 based NIC is bad juju in a system with a >440FX based system because the 21140 can only do plain PCI memory reads >(MR) and you really need to use PCI read multiple commands (MRM) to get >decent throughput with this chipset, and probably any other Pentium Pro >or Pentium II chipset. A 21140A based NIC should work much better since >it can use the MRM command. Humm... >} Humm, tcpblast shows 4.0MB/sec. Granted this isnt an empty net either, >} fairly busy I would imagine. >That's probably a reasonable number for a 10Mb network, but not a >100Mb network. BTW, I bet this NIC is also hurting your disk I/O >throughput since it is hogging the PCI bus because it's using an >inefficient transfer method. Um, a 10Mb network cannot sustain 4.0MB/sec :) -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 12:41:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05860 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05848 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00471; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:41:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from henrich) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:41:17 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199711042041.PAA00471@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: Don.Lewis@tsc.tdk.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: de0 errors Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hackers References: <63m1kg$gii$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #1 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.hackers you write: >On Nov 3, 5:15pm, Simon Shapiro wrote: >} Subject: Re: de0 errors >} >} Hi Don Lewis; On 04-Nov-97 you wrote: >} >} ... >} >} > } Humm, tcpblast shows 4.0MB/sec. Granted this isnt an empty net >} > either, fairly >} > } busy I would imagine. >} > >} > That's probably a reasonable number for a 10Mb network, but not a >} > 100Mb network. BTW, I bet this NIC is also hurting your disk I/O >} > throughput since it is hogging the PCI bus because it's using an >} > inefficient transfer method. >} >} I must be missing something. 4MB/sec. on TCP/IP over Ethernet is on a good >} day, more than 40MHz. No? >You're not missing anything, I slipped a decimal point. Sigh ... >BTW, I just did some quick calculations and a 21140 + 440FX might still >be able to drive the network at full speed without running out of PCI >bandwidth. It's just that if you're transmitting, you'll consume about >4x the transmit bandwidth on the PCI bus. If you're able to send at >10MB/sec, then you'll consume about 40MB/sec on the PCI bus out of the >theoretical 132MB/sec. Im thinking of finding an Intel EtherExpress 100B card to see how that guy will do. I also am handling easily 20 articles/sec out of news on this system, along with 100+ readers, at a load average of about .8, so Im not grumping :) -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 13:10:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08190 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:10:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08185 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:10:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from faber@ISI.EDU) Received: from ISI.EDU (vex-s.isi.edu [128.9.192.240]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA19624; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:10:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711042110.NAA19624@tnt.isi.edu> To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Cc: "David E. Cross" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:30:03 PST." <19971104013003.13856@mooseriver.com> X-Url: http://www.isi.edu/~faber Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:10:39 -0800 From: Ted Faber Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Josef Grosch wrote: >On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 11:10:01PM -0500, David E. Cross wrote: >> A friend and I had great fun in finding out all of the english words that >> have a rot13 pair, like irk <-> vex. I have the list somewhere. >> > >Must have been a damn slow day at the office ;-) I was born with one: faber <-> snore Just a useless fact... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Faber faber@isi.edu USC/ISI Computer Scientist http://www.isi.edu/~faber (310) 822-1511 x190 PGP Key: http://www.isi.edu/~faber/pubkey.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNF+PTYb4eisfQ5rpAQH3kQP/ZW0932X9KiDj2RPSNS+qDzcdmUPGlE8Q vxWTxLUAPj5YUNIA1hna6fxPetYz4ImA80ZW8K5tJEWBCklS0MQsywmzar33Ya/3 E1HFue6F2QuVKVnWalu366aKZAHgfGAq05D/ce+DBkm74Tqw4lw7HA/n4P88DNqk nlIcfBpU/UQ= =gHfv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 13:26:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09239 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:26:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09234 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:26:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@zeta.org.au) Received: from gurney.reilly.home (d8.syd2.zeta.org.au [203.26.11.8]) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA10619; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:23:49 +1100 Received: (from andrew@localhost) by gurney.reilly.home (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA03066; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:20:59 +1100 (EST) From: Andrew Reilly Message-Id: <199711042120.IAA03066@gurney.reilly.home> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:20:58 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: benco@pendor.McKusick.COM cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811040302.TAA01991@pendor.McKusick.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 3 Nov, Ben Cottrell wrote: > In message <4964.878612091@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> And since when was rot13 a "game", anyway? A pretty boring game, if >> you ask me :) > > Actually, that was a large portion of my point :-) There are many things in > /usr/games that are not games, they are actually useful utilities. Nuking > the entire directory would not only eliminate fluff, it would also take out > a number of mathematical and text-processing utilities with it. > > I would get behind a proposal to eliminate all the real "games" while leaving > the rest, but I strongly oppose deleting the whole directory. I'm in favour of nuking games. I like fortune, but haven't run it since I started to use X (where do you put a logout message, hmmmm?). I don't understand the passion for rot13 everyone has been displaying. There are so many (commercial) Unix systems in my past that have not had it at all that the following script has been in my personal bin since July 1989: tr 'a-zA-Z' 'n-za-mN-ZA-M' (look ma, no #!/bin/sh, even) I've probably used random in a few scripts over the years, but it would be easy to make random a wrapper for jot, now that that's in /usr/bin. I can't see anything else there that's worth keeping. -- Andrew "The steady state of disks is full." -- Ken Thompson From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 14:37:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14047 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:37:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14041 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:37:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA12277; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:36:16 -0800 (PST) To: Marc Slemko cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 07:41:31 MST." Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:36:16 -0800 Message-ID: <12273.878682976@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So, to seperate out the issues here, first form a list of everything that > should be around but not in /usr/games because it isn't. Then propose > moving those to usr.bin or wherever is appropriate for the particular > program. > > After that, propose nuking what is left of /usr/games in favor of a port > or whatever. I think that pretty much sums it up, yes. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 15:01:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15710 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:01:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15701 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA25668; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:06:42 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:06:42 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Andrew Reilly cc: benco@pendor.McKusick.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <199711042120.IAA03066@gurney.reilly.home> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Andrew Reilly wrote: > I'm in favour of nuking games. I like fortune, but haven't run it > since I started to use X (where do you put a logout message, hmmmm?). /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xdm/Xsetup_0 -- Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 15:28:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17703 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:28:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from roguetrader.com (brandon@cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17691 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:28:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandon@roguetrader.com) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by roguetrader.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01329; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:27:41 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:27:40 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: Tom cc: James Raynard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Suggested addition to /etc/security In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Tom wrote: > On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, James Raynard wrote: > > > > echo "checking for invalid user or group ids:" > > > > > > find / -nouser -nogroup > > How does this check improve security? It depends upon how your system is setup. If _ALL_ of the files a user will ever use are contained within their home directory, then this check does nothing. However, many systems (myself included, which is what made me think of it) don't do this. I have several projects running on my server, and people own files througout several different filesystems. If I remove a user--these files are still owned by them. This in itself isn't a problem, until you consider that the add user programs (those I've checked, ''pw'' included) default to reusing user ids! (this should also be changed--its not like we dont have enough of a range for the general case). So if I nix somebody, then a week later add another user which gets the old guy's uid--he also gets all the files and programs of the old guy. While in general this isn't a big security issue, its still a problem (could be a very BIG problem on some systems). Consider a server where (for whatever reason) a private file was stored in a location other than the user's home directory. Because of the situation as explained above, another user is then assigned their uid. They then have access to these files and YOU are suddenly liable for it (sure, this scenario isn't bullet proof, but it does demonstrate the concerns). -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 15:30:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17934 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from roguetrader.com (brandon@cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17926 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandon@roguetrader.com) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by roguetrader.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01344; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:30:41 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:30:41 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: U.S. Mirrors wanted [was "Jim Barrett": FreeBSD Mirrors] In-Reply-To: <25102.878341731@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Jim has identified a growing problem with our U.S. mirror sites and > thus I figured I'd cite his posting in support of a request I'd like > to make at this time for more FreeBSD mirrors at well-connected and > reasonably useful (e.g. at least 50-100 anonymous FTP users allowed) > sites. Any takers? > > Please read http://www.cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD before volunteering as it > contains important prerequisite information which you may wish to > consider before stepping forward. Can you possibly give some numbers on how this will effect the regular performance of the server, as well as bandwidth impact, etc? Basically, what sortof memory footprint will 50 FTP users takeup, and how will it effect disk i/o and the net connection (be it T1 or better).. -Brandon From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 15:33:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18201 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:33:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18191 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:33:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24121; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:33:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711042333.QAA24121@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) To: eivind@bitbox.follo.net (Eivind Eklund) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:33:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tom@sdf.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19971103191349.30502@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Nov 3, 97 07:13:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Is it restricted to only let a user check his own password? Or could > > > we make it only check a users own password fairly easily? > > > > How would that be useful? > > Security. If a user can check other people's passwords, he can > brute-force passwords. If he can't, he can't. :-) /usr/bin/login rshd telnetd rlogind pop3d ....uh, the user can already check other peoples passwords this way. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 15:38:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18604 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:38:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18597 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:38:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24460; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:38:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711042338.QAA24460@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM (Gary Kendall) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:38:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711040009.TAA08962@ccomp.inode.com> from "Gary Kendall" at Nov 3, 97 07:09:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And I'm not sure it's necessary to remove all traces of the > game, just all traces of the trademarked word or phrase. And only then if the trademark space is the same business space for both legal entities. Does Hasbro nee Parker Brothers sell computer games on FreeBSD? (That's a rhetorical question). That's the problem with becoming a legal entity: if you grow "short hairs" then someone can grab you by them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 15:49:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19443 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:49:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19438 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:49:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25437; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:49:07 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711042349.QAA25437@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:49:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19971104112409.54867@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 4, 97 11:24:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I can understand how mixing high-priced corporate lawyers with > > public-domain source code can drive you beyond frustration into > > the Great Beyond, but scrapping all of the games seems a bit ham > > handed. Why not send any questionable source code to the > > corporations in question, and let them make all of thier > > objections at once? > > How do you know which corporations are in question? They mumble at you like they mumbled at Jordan, and they're in your competition space. For example, if SCO complains about a trademark, you have to take it seriosly. If a computer game company for another platform complains about a trademark, you give them the finger (but only after they decline to port to your platform to make available the services they want you to delete). Speaking of which, why did Tetris get deleted instead of having the "PROGRAMNAME=..." set in the Makefile? I still think this is stupid as all get out... > > And I'm not sure it's necessary to remove all traces of the > > game, just all traces of the trademarked word or phrase. > > It doesn't seem to be as simple as that. At least, it wasn't with > T*tr*s. I seem to be saying this a lot in this thread, but... Bullshit. It's as simple as competition space. Apple Computer couldn't damage Apple Record's "good name and faith in the industry" because they weren't in the same industry. Hasbro/Tetris/et. al. are not in the "games for FreeBSD" business. The question is how much legality is required. Doesn't Walnut Creek or FreeBSD, Inc. have a lawyer on retainer who is at least willing to test the water with an "Apple vs. Apple" citation in a response letter? Or is the automatic reaction going to be to bend over for people who, dog-like, pee all over any name-space they see to mark "their" territory? Why the hell do you think domain names cost $50 a pop now? It's because Proctor and Gamble registered all their trademarks as domains. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:08:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20539 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:08:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20519 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:08:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA26493; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:02:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050002.RAA26493@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:02:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: benco@pendor.McKusick.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4964.878612091@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 3, 97 06:54:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmmm. I wouldn't be surprised if gomoku, phantasia (Disney) and trek > were also slated for The Nasty Letter some time in the future. That's with an "F" (it's a homonym). > I'd say NetBSD's got even more infringers in their tree than we do and > would probably be well advised to nuke their /usr/src/games also. :) I'd say *none* of them were infringing. You were willing as hell to let "comp.unix.bsd" go in in place of "comp.bsd" in the news groups, if I rememebr correctly. Where was your fear of trademarks then? > And since when was rot13 a "game", anyway? A pretty boring game, if > you ask me :) That's not the point, and you damn well know it. Why don't I just save us all the trouble and bring things to a head by turning any even remotely trademarked system file into the putative trademark owner. Then we can get of all these "dangerous" files at one time, and never have to worry about it again, instead of picking off programs you (Jordan) or someone else decides that we can live without, one at a time. Do we thing "Keds", "Superfeet", "Just for Feet", or "Sears" owns the trademark on "boot"? I'm sure we can live without that... I'm sure "Public Key Partners" will happily claim trademark on "Passwd"; after all, they invented passwords, right? Isn't "login" a magazine name? Let's replace that with "user name"... oh, wait... that's a trademark of DEC. And doesn't "X Windows" contain "Windows"? This is all assinine. The name spaces are non-intersecting. Proctor and Gamble as much as admitted it outright when they registered their trademarks as domain names instead of just not letting anyone else register them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:11:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20754 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:11:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20749 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:11:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27586; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:11:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050011.RAA27586@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:11:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4443.878608603@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 3, 97 05:56:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What corporations? You have a list of all parties who might > conceivably have a trademark infringement problem with us? Are you > willing to do the work of tracking down and contacting all of these > people? I'll be happy to do the paperwork for critical system components whose names are not computer related so as to put the entire OS in the same jeopardy (say, isn't that a trademark? I suppose I'll have to ask "Pat Sajak Productions" for a license...). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:13:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20875 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:13:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20868 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:13:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27871; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:13:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050013.RAA27871@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:13:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <5101.878612795@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 3, 97 07:06:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If nobody else comes up, I'll do it, as long as the traffic isn't too > > much (I'm on a 33.6 kb/s link). > > I honestly hope we can do better than that. :-) You are now an accessory before the fact if anyone downloads those programs into the US. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:26:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21629 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:26:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21621 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:26:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA13169; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:26:22 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:28:34 GMT." <199711042028.NAA25735@usr06.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:26:22 -0800 Message-ID: <13165.878689582@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Some great Terry invective elided] > It's not so much as "where to start" that pisses me off, but "where you, > personally, will stop". How non-critical to you, personally, does a > standard-since-time-immemorial system component have to be before some > legal Leprechaun waving what he claims is an invisible magic Shellaleigh > (but is really his fist) can not get you to dike it out as a paniced > reflexive reacion?!? I can only repeat my earlier statement: Experience has shown us that the benefit-to-risk ratio of /usr/src/games is low. Period. I don't personally care about the degree of emotional attachment you or anyone else here has to them because I do not regard this as an issue to be debated on emotional grounds - save that for the anti-abortion debates because this is just a collection of bits who's "standardness" is entirely secondary to their function and can always be loaded as a port by the aging hackers who, with the aid of a growing collection of "Speed Racer" cars and Mighty Mouse T-shirts, seek to recapture their lost youth through such nostalgia. I'm not denying you that, Terry, calm yourself. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:33:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22210 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:33:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22203 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:33:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA16235; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:55:42 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971105105542.14468@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:55:42 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <19971104112409.54867@lemis.com> <199711042349.QAA25437@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199711042349.QAA25437@usr02.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 11:49:06PM +0000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 11:49:06PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> I can understand how mixing high-priced corporate lawyers with >>> public-domain source code can drive you beyond frustration into >>> the Great Beyond, but scrapping all of the games seems a bit ham >>> handed. Why not send any questionable source code to the >>> corporations in question, and let them make all of thier >>> objections at once? >> >> How do you know which corporations are in question? > > They mumble at you like they mumbled at Jordan, and they're in > your competition space. That's like saying you can find bugs in code because they cause SIGSEGVs. > Doesn't Walnut Creek or FreeBSD, Inc. have a lawyer on retainer > who is at least willing to test the water with an "Apple vs. Apple" > citation in a response letter? I don't know, but I'm sure he would want money on a per-case basis. Are you prepared to front it up? I agree with Jordan that we want to avoid legal hassles wherever possible. I get the impression that he's going overboard in throwing out all games, but I don't care too much, especially if they're available as ports. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:42:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22811 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from roguetrader.com (brandon@cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22805 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:42:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandon@roguetrader.com) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by roguetrader.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA01604; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:41:43 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:41:43 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Marc Slemko , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <12273.878682976@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > So, to seperate out the issues here, first form a list of everything that > > should be around but not in /usr/games because it isn't. Then propose > > moving those to usr.bin or wherever is appropriate for the particular > > program. > > > > After that, propose nuking what is left of /usr/games in favor of a port > > or whatever. > > I think that pretty much sums it up, yes. My suggestions, based off /usr/games from 2.2.5-R Sub packages: bsdmisc -- somewhat useful tools/toys/misc programs bsdgames -- general bsd style games bsdadventure -- bsd text adventure games bsdlegacy -- bsd 'not really games, rather useless programs now' Perhaps splitup 'bsdgames' a little more, based off general types.. *shrug* Note the keyword 'like' we should use when referring to games of TM nature. When 'mv ??' is seen, I'm not sure if we should change its name or not (is it copyright?), and if so, to what name? Game/CMD PKG Action Description -------- --- ------ ----------- adventure bsdadventure text adventure arithmetic bsdlegacy asks math questions, you answer atc bsdgames air traffic controller backgammon bsdgames mv ?? like backgammon teachgammon bsdgames teach the rules to backgammon battlestar bsdadventure mv ?? text adventure bcd bsdlegacy input text, output like punch cards boggle bsdgames mv duh like boggle bs bsdgames like battleship caesar bsdmisc decrypt caesar ciphers canfield bsdgames solitare game cfscores bsdgames part of canfield cribbage bsdgames dm bsdgames mv gm game master (dungeon master is a tm of TSR) wraps games.. perhaps just rm? factor bsdmisc factor a number fish bsdgames play 'fish' fortune bsdmisc grdc bsdlegacy curses based digital clock hack bsdadventure explore the Dungeons of Doom, like rogue hangman bsdgames mv ?? play hangman larn bsdadventure mv ?? explore the caverns of Larn mille bsdgames mv ?? play Mille Bornes morse bsdlegacy input text, output morse code number bsdmisc numbers as english (i.e. one hundred) phantasia bsdgames mv ?? an interterminal fantasy game piano bsdlegacy mv ?? play a piano using QWERTYUIOP[] pig bsdgames input text, output piglatin pom bsdmisc display the phase of the moon ppt bsdlegacy input text, output paper tape primes bsdmisc figure prime numbers quiz bsdgames random knowledge tests rain bsdlegacy display ascii rain on your terminal random bsdmisc pick random lines from file robots bsdgames fight off villainous robots rogue bsdadventure explore the Dungeons of Doom rot13 bsdmisc input text, output text+13 sail bsdgames multi-user sailing of ships snake bsdgames evade snakes snscore bsdgames part of snake strfile bsdgames? used by several programs to create unstr ''string'' file databases trek bsdgames mv ?? trekkie game wargames bsdgames stupid front end to games worm bsdgames growing worm game worms bsdlegacy animated ascii worms wump bsdgames hunt the wumpus in an underground cave From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:44:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22983 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:44:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22978 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:44:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from faber@ISI.EDU) Received: from ISI.EDU (vex-s.isi.edu [128.9.192.240]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA02361; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:43:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711050043.QAA02361@tnt.isi.edu> To: Terry Lambert Cc: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 23:49:06 GMT." <199711042349.QAA25437@usr02.primenet.com> X-Url: http://www.isi.edu/~faber Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:43:09 -0800 From: Ted Faber Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Terry Lambert wrote: >I seem to be saying this a lot in this thread, but... Bullshit. It's >as simple as competition space. Apple Computer couldn't damage >Apple Record's "good name and faith in the industry" because they >weren't in the same industry. Hasbro/Tetris/et. al. are not in >the "games for FreeBSD" business. > >The question is how much legality is required. The other problem is that boundaries of the trademark "competition space" are decided upon by the legal system, where, unfortunately, a well thought out technical argument may be worth bupkis. I think you have an uphill battle convincing 12 average people that the "games for FreeBSD" business isn't the "computer games" industry, which I'm willing to bet Hasbro can make an argument (to the average person) for being in. > >Doesn't Walnut Creek or FreeBSD, Inc. have a lawyer on retainer >who is at least willing to test the water with an "Apple vs. Apple" >citation in a response letter? Now there's the question. What will it cost in money and time to handle it this way (which I do think is the moral high road)? Is that cost going to be a good use of limited resources? You asked what would happen if Microsoft sues claiming WINE infringes their trademarks. I hope the answer isn't "we didn't have any money to fight it after that Hasbro thing." If we have free legal resources, and someone's time resources to follow up on it, I agree that sending a response that either says "we're not infringing your trademark" or "we are infringing your trademark, but it's essentially free advertising for your game, how about a zero cost lisence?" is the right answer. I can't donate the time to do that (even writing this mail is more time that I should be devoting to it), or the legal resources. If Jordan wants to make a quick and dirty fix that avoids a fight that isn't a good use of FreeBSD's resources, I can't naysay him. If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. > >Or is the automatic reaction going to be to bend over for people >who, dog-like, pee all over any name-space they see to mark "their" >territory? I don't like the idea either, but I don't have other fights I think are more important. >Why the hell do you think domain names cost $50 a pop now? It's because >Proctor and Gamble registered all their trademarks as domains. Actually, although there was some speculation in domain names (P&G actually scooped up things like headache.com as well) the cost of maintaining the namespace shot up as just another price of doing business under exponential growth. There are plenty of names/trademarks issues in domain name allocation, but P&G buying a couple hundred names is nothing compared to dragging the IANA staff in front of Congress under the Sherman Antitrust Act. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Faber faber@isi.edu USC/ISI Computer Scientist http://www.isi.edu/~faber (310) 822-1511 x190 PGP Key: http://www.isi.edu/~faber/pubkey.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNF/BHIb4eisfQ5rpAQGsrwP9GbkrEUVnSlc7fgEL3Vvru63XMwoYic67 83R3erDZzjjpL1ppnCM5vIlcXxQzRWkv01su7K/qQxMttvADRvMqFub5eAJ40B6R qGLW+hOeK+UaQe4tpdJU/whPmBsBYVOV8lor+JBbs+fkb+5Ailg0CxwvCzQI3+5P 9Qy0ZOJr/8U= =BCFk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:46:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23067 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:46:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23061 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA13423; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:44:35 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: benco@pendor.McKusick.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:02:15 GMT." <199711050002.RAA26493@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:44:35 -0800 Message-ID: <13419.878690675@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'd say *none* of them were infringing. You were willing as hell > to let "comp.unix.bsd" go in in place of "comp.bsd" in the news groups, > if I rememebr correctly. Where was your fear of trademarks then? Terry, what the flaming Jesus are you talking about? I *objected* to that naming hierarchy and I was overruled! I thought we should have been under comp.os but "the cabal", as it were, would hear nothing of it and I didn't have the stamina (unlike yourself) to get into a multi-week flame fest with folks like Joel Furr who have infinitely more interest and time to devote to the debate of such picayune issues. Please at least *try* to get your facts occasionally straight, Terry. I know it's a bit much to ask of you in particular, but try anyway. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:47:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23178 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:47:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23171 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29621; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:42:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050042.RAA29621@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: Don.Lewis@tsc.tdk.com (Don Lewis) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:42:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, benco@pendor.McKusick.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711040423.UAA11047@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> from "Don Lewis" at Nov 3, 97 08:23:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > } > adventure caesar fortune morse rain teachgammon > } > arithmetic canfield gomoku number random tetris > } > atc cfscores hack phantasia robots trek > } > backgammon chess hangman pig rogue wargames > } > banner cribbage hide pom rot13 worm > } > battlestar dm larn ppt sail worms > } > bcd factor mille primes snake wump > } > boggle fish monop quiz snscore > } > } Hmmm. I wouldn't be surprised if gomoku, phantasia (Disney) and trek > } were also slated for The Nasty Letter some time in the future. > > I'd add mille and monop to this list. Canfield also sounds like something > that would be trademarked. I suspect chess is safe. Why do the "onsey-twosey"? battlestar is a reference to BattleStar Galactica, and is a trademark of Universal Pictures boggle is a trademark of Parker Brothers (just like the man page acknowledges) mille is a reference to Mille Bournes, a trademark of (I can find out if I have to...) monop is a reference to Monopoly, a trademark of Parker Brothers phantasia is a homonym for Fantasia, a trademark of Walt Disney Productions rogue is a character in "The X Men", and is a trademark of the Marvel Entrtainment Group tetris is a computer game, and is a trademark. trek is a reference to StarTrek, and is a trademark of Paramount. wargames is a movie title, and is a trademark of MGM/UA. yp is a trademark of British Telecom. Delete that, why don't you -- or rename it to NIS, a trademark of Sun Microsystems. Bah humbug. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 16:51:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23565 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23560 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:51:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA13493; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:49:18 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: grog@lemis.com, gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:13:23 GMT." <199711050013.RAA27871@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:49:17 -0800 Message-ID: <13490.878690957@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > If nobody else comes up, I'll do it, as long as the traffic isn't too > > > much (I'm on a 33.6 kb/s link). > > > > I honestly hope we can do better than that. :-) > > You are now an accessory before the fact if anyone downloads > those programs into the US. I'm sure I'm guilty of occasional loitering and jaywalking too. I can live with such a degree of wanton criminality in myself, I think, and am willing to "take the heat" if they want to "send me to the big house" over this. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 17:00:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24210 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:00:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24201 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:00:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from faber@ISI.EDU) Received: from ISI.EDU (vex-s.isi.edu [128.9.192.240]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03298; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:59:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711050059.QAA03298@tnt.isi.edu> To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), benco@pendor.McKusick.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:02:15 GMT." <199711050002.RAA26493@usr02.primenet.com> X-Url: http://www.isi.edu/~faber Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:59:47 -0800 From: Ted Faber Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Terry Lambert wrote: >This is all assinine. The name spaces are non-intersecting. Proctor >and Gamble as much as admitted it outright when they registered their >trademarks as domain names instead of just not letting anyone else >register them. P&G admitted that possession is 9/10 of the law. They got the names so that they could use them until the courts sorted out any resulting hubbub. And there is currently hubbub, so they look pretty smart. There is no statute or general precedent that I am aware of that settles the relationship between domain names and trademarks. If you've got a citation, I'm happy to be wrong. (Note that I know individual cases have been decided, but there hasn't been a Roe v. Wade or Dred Scot type of decision that's made the prevailing legal interpretation clear.) If you don't have a citation, well, you don't have a case. This is a red herring, anyway. Program names and domain names are different things. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Faber faber@isi.edu USC/ISI Computer Scientist http://www.isi.edu/~faber (310) 822-1511 x190 PGP Key: http://www.isi.edu/~faber/pubkey.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNF/FAob4eisfQ5rpAQEbHwQAi/LAghusg4kQt8cKioICyxcFGAZQqwE1 vLn8wQb4F/Vv6Y6PG3kdeZM6UGtHAlYfFJSH/0/Is8nPTf0L8IzibsHQa/V0hADf B5lWm024kguzYsdwdJtgEibOGaKX0SaT593CDUX7F3WJ4RkF/zwLs/r+f+5M9Bso +KATtNvr0uc= =6UNX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 17:05:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24440 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:05:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24430 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:04:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00987; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:04:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050104.SAA00987@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: portal pid not correct... To: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:04:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19971104011630.17437@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> from "John-Mark Gurney" at Nov 4, 97 01:16:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > > comments? ideas? > > > > Use vfork for the side effect before child exit/exec. Man vfork for > > details. > > but I thought that the child ran until it either exit'd of exec'd? how > would the parent mount it while the child waited? from man vfork: > The parent process is suspended while the child is using > its resources. The child does the mount, and the parent waits, in this scheme. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 17:19:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25248 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25242 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:19:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA01542; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:14:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050114.SAA01542@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:14:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: faber@ISI.EDU, jbryant@tfs.net, gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7783.878637272@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 4, 97 01:54:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Part of having a trademark means that they have to protect it. In > > fact, the law all but forces them to come after us. Failure for them > > to come after FreeBSD for infringing their trademark after they knew > > we were infringing it could open them up to losing a case against > > someone who really *was* trying to steal their trademark for profit. > > Kind of like my little brother got to do lots of stuff because Mom let > > me do 'em first. > > Thank you, this sums up the situation very nicely for those here who > are ignorant of trademark law. What about those of us who aren't, know about the "Apple Records vs. Apple Computers" precedent from the Fifth US Circuit Court of Appeals (who has jurisdiction over Walnut Creek CDROM), and realize that it's all nothing more than a cost/benefit calculation based on a cost estimate times a risk factor? At the very least, you should have your lawyer-on-retainer send a letter back citing the Apple precedent along with the fact tyhat they aren't in the FreeBSD software market, and that you would be happy to remove it and sign a joint press release of the event, if they ever change their minds and start developing software for the platform, and see if it flies. Probably your biggest hurdle is that you haven't made it clear to them that not all machines can run DOS/Windows software just because they are x86 based PC's. Until you do this, they won't see that a space differentiation doesn't exists, inre: Apple. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 17:24:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25699 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:24:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from pandora.hh.kew.com (root@kendra.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25671 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:24:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ahd@kew.com) Received: from sonata (sonata.hh.kew.com [192.195.203.135]) by pandora.hh.kew.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26196; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:24:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <345FCABB.C7F61219@kew.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:24:11 -0500 From: Drew Derbyshire Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Kendra Electronic Wonderworks, Stoneham MA 02180 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en]C-MOENE (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Faber CC: jbryant@tfs.NET, Gary Kendall Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199711040224.SAA08017@tnt.isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Follow-ups deflected to chat on this tangent ... Ted Faber wrote: > I don't think that's the mark of a sane society, but it's the way the > law is written and is enforced. To protect their trademark from > others they have to protect it from us. Xerox didn't and poof, xerox > is an English word and 3M can include it in their adds. Last I knew, Xerox still defends it's quite valid trademark. Say Xerox on TV when you mean 'photocopy' and if you're not using a Xerox (R) copier, you get a phone call. From their lawyers. Chugga, chugga ... http://www.xerox.com/factbook/1997/glance.htm specifically notes: XEROX®, The Document Company® and the stylized X are trademarks of XEROX CORPORATION. Product and service names profiled herein are trademarks of Xerox Corporation. Any other named products profiled herein are trademarks of their respective companies. Note that they claim XEROX® is a registered trademark. Note too that part about 'other named products'. You (and they) can use someone else's trademark to identify the trademark owner's product -- you just can't claim it as your own, including putting it on your products. That's how Pepsi can mention Coca-Cola -- they don't claim the mark as Pepsi's own, but rather give credit as needed. -- Internet: ahd@kew.com Voice: 781-279-9812 "An important, but often overlooked, feature of running a computer system is maintaining its security from outside intrusion, internal sabotage, and just plain user stupidity." -- Unix System Administration, Fiedler and Hunter From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 17:32:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26312 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:32:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from colonel.42inc.com (colonel.42inc.com [205.217.47.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26287 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jal@42is.com) Received: from [205.217.47.88] (vegas.42inc.com [205.217.47.88]) by colonel.42inc.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA05042; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:31:29 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: jal@205.217.47.82 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971105105542.14468@lemis.com> References: <199711042349.QAA25437@usr02.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 11:49:06PM +0000 <19971104112409.54867@lemis.com> <199711042349.QAA25437@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:28:27 -0800 To: Greg Lehey From: Jamie Lawrence Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 10:55 AM +1030 on 11/5/97, Greg Lehey wrote: > I agree with Jordan that we want to avoid legal hassles wherever > possible. I get the impression that he's going overboard in throwing > out all games, but I don't care too much, especially if they're > available as ports. "When they came for /usr/src/games, I didn't speak, because I didn't live in /usr/src/games. When they came for..." Sorry. I'm only being sarcastic. -j -- "Its never about 127.0.0.1..." __________________________________________________________________ jamie@42is.com Agent From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 17:40:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26918 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:40:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26912 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:40:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02677; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:40:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050140.SAA02677@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:40:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19971105105542.14468@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 5, 97 10:55:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > They mumble at you like they mumbled at Jordan, and they're in > > your competition space. > > That's like saying you can find bugs in code because they cause > SIGSEGVs. Welcome to "Introduction to Fuzzy Sets, 101". That's a good analogy, in fact, since you *can* find bugs after the fact by looking at the stack traceback from the core. > > Doesn't Walnut Creek or FreeBSD, Inc. have a lawyer on retainer > > who is at least willing to test the water with an "Apple vs. Apple" > > citation in a response letter? > > I don't know, but I'm sure he would want money on a per-case basis. > Are you prepared to front it up? Do you know what a "retainer" is? It's what you pay a lawyer to do minimal work for you on an "as needed" basis so that you don't have to pay him money on a case-by-case basis. > I agree with Jordan that we want to avoid legal hassles wherever > possible. I get the impression that he's going overboard in throwing > out all games, but I don't care too much, especially if they're > available as ports. US politicians negotiate after terrorist kidnappings. Israeli politicians bomb terrorists families in retribution after terrorist kidnappings. Guess which country has fewer citizens held hostage at any one time? If you bend over for jerks, you only make yourself a target for more jerks. Besides, I don't think their lawyers honestly understand the situation, and rather than setting a *bad* precedent, it's worth one letter attempting to clarify their understanding, and preclude similar situations in the future. I can't believe that *no one else* thinks that it's a *terrible* thing to tacitly confirm that the FreeBSD program name space equals the US trademark name space?!? Or that this posit is even *capable* of being *in any way* true?!? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 17:46:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27266 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:46:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27258 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:45:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA16630; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:14:15 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971105121415.21516@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:14:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <19971105105542.14468@lemis.com> <199711050140.SAA02677@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199711050140.SAA02677@usr02.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, Nov 05, 1997 at 01:40:09AM +0000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Nov 05, 1997 at 01:40:09AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> They mumble at you like they mumbled at Jordan, and they're in >>> your competition space. >> >> That's like saying you can find bugs in code because they cause >> SIGSEGVs. > > Welcome to "Introduction to Fuzzy Sets, 101". That's a good > analogy, in fact, since you *can* find bugs after the fact by > looking at the stack traceback from the core. Thanks. It also shows that we're looking at this problem from different standpoints. If I were managing a project, and one of the programmers told me that that was adequate debugging, I'd fire him. Jordan's taking a similar stance on the dangers of unknown copyright bugs. >>> Doesn't Walnut Creek or FreeBSD, Inc. have a lawyer on retainer >>> who is at least willing to test the water with an "Apple vs. Apple" >>> citation in a response letter? >> >> I don't know, but I'm sure he would want money on a per-case basis. >> Are you prepared to front it up? > > Do you know what a "retainer" is? It's what you pay a lawyer to > do minimal work for you on an "as needed" basis so that you don't > have to pay him money on a case-by-case basis. Yes, I know what a retainer is. I'm saying that his retainer won't cover the amount of work this kind of thing would involve. At the very least, he would want an increase in his retainer. >> I agree with Jordan that we want to avoid legal hassles wherever >> possible. I get the impression that he's going overboard in throwing >> out all games, but I don't care too much, especially if they're >> available as ports. > > US politicians negotiate after terrorist kidnappings. > > Israeli politicians bomb terrorists families in retribution after > terrorist kidnappings. > > Guess which country has fewer citizens held hostage at any one time? Guess which country has fewer citizens. OK, let's bomb the lawyers. Since you're in the US, you can do my part for me :-) > If you bend over for jerks, you only make yourself a target for more > jerks. > > Besides, I don't think their lawyers honestly understand the situation, > and rather than setting a *bad* precedent, it's worth one letter > attempting to clarify their understanding, and preclude similar > situations in the future. > > I can't believe that *no one else* thinks that it's a *terrible* thing > to tacitly confirm that the FreeBSD program name space equals the US > trademark name space?!? Or that this posit is even *capable* of being > *in any way* true?!? I don't suppose it would harm to send them a letter and ask them to justify their claims. *After* having removed the stuff (and not telling them :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 17:46:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27327 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27321 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:46:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02964; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:46:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050146.SAA02964@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:46:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <13165.878689582@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 4, 97 04:26:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [Some great Terry invective elided] > > I can only repeat my earlier statement: Experience has shown us that > the benefit-to-risk ratio of /usr/src/games is low. Period. I don't > personally care about the degree of emotional attachment you or anyone > else here has to them because I do not regard this as an issue to be > debated on emotional grounds - save that for the anti-abortion debates > because this is just a collection of bits who's "standardness" is > entirely secondary to their function and can always be loaded as a > port by the aging hackers who, with the aid of a growing collection of > "Speed Racer" cars and Mighty Mouse T-shirts, seek to recapture their > lost youth through such nostalgia. I'm not denying you that, Terry, > calm yourself. :) Fine. While you are purging those things which make BSD into BSD, why don't we start with killing /etc/rc in favor of /etc/rc?.d, and at least get some technological and functional benefit out of your castration binge? Clearly, the standardness of /etc/rc files is entirely secondary to their function. Right? Or is "Not Invented Here" stronger than "You might have to send a letter, and if that fails, do what you're going to do anyway"? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:01:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28284 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:01:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28276 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA03653; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:00:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050200.TAA03653@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: faber@ISI.EDU (Ted Faber) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:00:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711050043.QAA02361@tnt.isi.edu> from "Ted Faber" at Nov 4, 97 04:43:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The other problem is that boundaries of the trademark "competition > space" are decided upon by the legal system, where, unfortunately, a > well thought out technical argument may be worth bupkis. I think you > have an uphill battle convincing 12 average people that the "games for > FreeBSD" business isn't the "computer games" industry, which I'm > willing to bet Hasbro can make an argument (to the average person) for > being in. This is why you convince Hasbro's lawyer, and not 12 angry men. > >Doesn't Walnut Creek or FreeBSD, Inc. have a lawyer on retainer > >who is at least willing to test the water with an "Apple vs. Apple" > >citation in a response letter? > > Now there's the question. What will it cost in money and time to > handle it this way (which I do think is the moral high road)? Is that > cost going to be a good use of limited resources? You asked what > would happen if Microsoft sues claiming WINE infringes their > trademarks. I hope the answer isn't "we didn't have any money to fight > it after that Hasbro thing." "We" aren't synonymous with "WINE". And the point is to do everything you can without it coming to court as a suit. Wimping out without even trying to deflect the argument is bad. This is not the same thing as "wimping out in the face of a large legal club is bad" (it is, but it's a hell of a lot more honorable to wait for the club). > If we have free legal resources, and someone's time resources to > follow up on it, I agree that sending a response that either says > "we're not infringing your trademark" or "we are infringing your > trademark, but it's essentially free advertising for your game, how > about a zero cost lisence?" is the right answer. 1) "On retainer" is not the same as "Pro Bono". 2) The claim is that the conflict space is non-eixtstance. 3) Any admission of a possible conflict space, and you have already lost. 4) I like the idea of a "negotiating for license" defence better than an immediate buckling. Asking for a zero cost license is idiotic, however, as is the "it's free advertising" claim (which is an admission of conflict space). > If Jordan wants to make a > quick and dirty fix that avoids a fight that isn't a good use of > FreeBSD's resources, I can't naysay him. And now we're back to "FreeBSD vs. FreeBSD Inc.", an argument I don't want to have at this point, Thank You. > If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. "And when they came for 'grep', there was no one left to oppose them..." > >Or is the automatic reaction going to be to bend over for people > >who, dog-like, pee all over any name-space they see to mark "their" > >territory? > > I don't like the idea either, but I don't have other fights I think > are more important. If the name space is admitted to be the same as the US Trademark name space, then we are screwed; it's only a matter of time. > There are plenty of names/trademarks issues in domain name allocation, > but P&G buying a couple hundred names is nothing compared to dragging > the IANA staff in front of Congress under the Sherman Antitrust Act. You've apparently missed that InterNIC has covered the IP address space allocation base already, with a wholly owned subsidiary, and the loss of the NSF contract isn't going to do anything (except maybe deregulate the market and screw us all). But that's irrelevant to the issue at hand If you give one bully your lunch money, the next one will want your pants. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:06:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28723 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:06:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28716 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:06:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199711050200.VAA09799@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:04:21 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Ted Faber cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <199711050043.QAA02361@tnt.isi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Ted Faber wrote: > If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. Officially stolen by me. :P Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:07:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28827 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28820 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA03949; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:07:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711050207.TAA03949@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: faber@ISI.EDU (Ted Faber) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:07:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, benco@pendor.McKusick.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711050059.QAA03298@tnt.isi.edu> from "Ted Faber" at Nov 4, 97 04:59:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ ... trademark vs. domain name space ... ] > If you don't have a citation, well, you don't have a case. A decision unifying the two was upheld in California recently; it is under appeal. Until then, approximately 1/6th of the courts in the US are bound to uphold this decision. > This is a red herring, anyway. Program names and domain names are > different things. You prove my case for me. The DOS market, the UNIX market, and the Board Game market are not unified. They are different things. To try and fail vs. to not try and fail... at least the letter should be sent. Or the next "Daemon" shirt should be a Daemon holding a placcard with an arrow pointing upward (at the wearer) and the text "I'm With Stupid". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:09:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29060 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:09:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29051 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:09:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA14248; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:08:20 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711050208.VAA14248@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <13165.878689582@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 4, 97 04:26:22 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:08:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard said: > [Some great Terry invective elided] > > > It's not so much as "where to start" that pisses me off, but "where you, > > personally, will stop". How non-critical to you, personally, does a > > standard-since-time-immemorial system component have to be before some > > legal Leprechaun waving what he claims is an invisible magic Shellaleigh > > (but is really his fist) can not get you to dike it out as a paniced > > reflexive reacion?!? > > I can only repeat my earlier statement: Experience has shown us that > the benefit-to-risk ratio of /usr/src/games is low. Period. I don't > personally care about the degree of emotional attachment you or anyone > else here has to them because I do not regard this as an issue to be > debated on emotional grounds - save that for the anti-abortion debates > because this is just a collection of bits who's "standardness" is > entirely secondary to their function and can always be loaded as a > port by the aging hackers who, with the aid of a growing collection of > "Speed Racer" cars and Mighty Mouse T-shirts, seek to recapture their > lost youth through such nostalgia. I'm not denying you that, Terry, > calm yourself. :) > I don't know about "abortion", but I agree with you Jordan on this point. There are things to fight for, and things simply not worth fighting for. The /usr/games can be downloaded from many places and ported by anyone who wants them. Whoever wants the games bad enough to keep in FreeBSD should keep a lawyer for WC and/or FreeBSD on retainer and be willing, able and committed to supporting a potential lawsuit and settlement. Only then there *might* be a credible argument for you (us) to keep the games in the release. IMO, /usr/games just aren't worth the potential trouble. In fact, they aren't worth the emotional or intellectual energy that we have expended on this discussion. Also, I just don't believe in domino theories... (Compromise once, and we will be compelled to compromise more and more often.) -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:10:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29196 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:10:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29181 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:10:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA18462; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 01:46:18 GMT." <199711050146.SAA02964@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0800 Message-ID: <18458.878695817@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > While you are purging those things which make BSD into BSD, why don't > we start with killing /etc/rc in favor of /etc/rc?.d, and at least > get some technological and functional benefit out of your castration > binge? > > Clearly, the standardness of /etc/rc files is entirely secondary to > their function. > > Right? Wrong. Now you're just ranting. I suggest a good lie-down and maybe a strong drink. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:22:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00227 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:22:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00220 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:22:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA18564; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:21:53 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: faber@ISI.EDU (Ted Faber), gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 02:00:38 GMT." <199711050200.TAA03653@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 18:21:53 -0800 Message-ID: <18560.878696513@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is why you convince Hasbro's lawyer, and not 12 angry men. Why is it so hard for you to understand that Hasbro's lawyer doesn't give a flying f**k at a rolling donut on this issue? He's doing exactly what the tetris lawyer did - going down his list of "trademark violations" on ftp.cdrom.com and requesting that all instances of "boggle" there be deleted. In order to be friendly to ftp.cdrom.com, our master site (in case you forgot), it also makes sense to do this in a way which simply eliminates the problem from our end so that various types of mirror nastiness don't become necessary just over this one issue (and it will be removed from the 4.4 Lite tree on ftp.cdrom.com as well, just FYI). > > If Jordan wants to make a > > quick and dirty fix that avoids a fight that isn't a good use of > > FreeBSD's resources, I can't naysay him. > > And now we're back to "FreeBSD vs. FreeBSD Inc.", an argument I don't > want to have at this point, Thank You. Again, you are either being deliberately disingenuous or are just naturally befuddled, Terry, since FreeBSD, Inc. doesn't even enter into this. Walnut Creek CDROM got the letter and the FreeBSD *project* is debating how to get the whole annoyance of these periodic letters out of our hair. I thought I asked you to try to get your facts straight in my last message? You're not trying nearly hard enough. In any case, I see no merit in further debate with you on this since your fur went up several exchanges or so back and the last 3 posts from you have been little more than thinly disguised rants, reasonably coherent rants I'll grant you, but rants nonetheless. Further communication from you on this topic is going to /dev/null since I've already given you more than your due airtime here, sorry. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:24:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00367 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:24:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00361 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:24:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA18599; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:23:45 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: faber@ISI.EDU (Ted Faber), benco@pendor.McKusick.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 02:07:18 GMT." <199711050207.TAA03949@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 18:23:45 -0800 Message-ID: <18596.878696625@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Or the next "Daemon" shirt should be a Daemon holding a placcard with > an arrow pointing upward (at the wearer) and the text "I'm With Stupid". *plonk* :) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:45:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01814 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01798 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:45:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA20760; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:44:39 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:44:36 +0300 (MSK) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: Brandon Gillespie cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Marc Slemko , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > bsdmisc -- somewhat useful tools/toys/misc programs > bsdgames -- general bsd style games > bsdadventure -- bsd text adventure games > bsdlegacy -- bsd 'not really games, rather useless programs now' We need first to move to /usr/bin (or _better_ left in /usr/games since many programs expect them there) at least: caesar factor fortune (strfile, unstr) number pom primes random rot13 -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:48:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02127 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:48:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from roguetrader.com (brandon@cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02121 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:48:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandon@roguetrader.com) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by roguetrader.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02178; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:48:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:48:20 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Marc Slemko , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA02122 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, [KOI8-R] áÎÄÒÅÊ þÅÒÎÏ× wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > > > bsdmisc -- somewhat useful tools/toys/misc programs > > bsdgames -- general bsd style games > > bsdadventure -- bsd text adventure games > > bsdlegacy -- bsd 'not really games, rather useless programs now' > > We need first to move to /usr/bin (or _better_ left in /usr/games > since many programs expect them there) at least: > > caesar > factor > fortune (strfile, unstr) > number > pom > primes > random > rot13 Actually, I was thinking moving to /usr/local/bin (since they would be packages) and then having a softlink if any of the given packages were installed, from /usr/games to /usr/local/bin. -Brandon From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 18:51:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02358 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:51:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02353 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA20800; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:51:27 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:51:15 +0300 (MSK) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: Brandon Gillespie cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Marc Slemko , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, [KOI8-R] áÎÄÒÅÊ þÅÒÎÏ× wrote: > > > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > > > > > bsdmisc -- somewhat useful tools/toys/misc programs > > > bsdgames -- general bsd style games > > > bsdadventure -- bsd text adventure games > > > bsdlegacy -- bsd 'not really games, rather useless programs now' > > > > We need first to move to /usr/bin (or _better_ left in /usr/games > > since many programs expect them there) at least: > > > > caesar > > factor > > fortune (strfile, unstr) > > number > > pom > > primes > > random > > rot13 > > Actually, I was thinking moving to /usr/local/bin (since they would be > packages) and then having a softlink if any of the given packages were > installed, from /usr/games to /usr/local/bin. Umm, I not mean that this particular list need be packages or moved off standard distribution, I suggest to left it _in_ the standard distribution as somewhat useful utilities. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 19:01:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03159 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:01:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03146 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:01:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23537; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:35:57 GMT Message-Id: <199711050235.CAA23537@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Eivind Eklund cc: sos@FreeBSD.dk, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 10:18:50 +0100." <199711040918.KAA25920@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 02:35:57 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Remove games and put fortune in /usr/bin ?? > > I'm behind this (if I happen to get a vote). > Pity to loose the history (for source code antiquarians), though :-( I agree (nearly): mv ~cvs/src/games/fortune ~cvs/src/games/banner ~cvs/src/usr.bin/. mv ~cvs/src/games /dev/null > Eivind. -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 19:42:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05994 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:42:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05988 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:42:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA27158; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:08 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:52:06 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Terry Lambert cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , benco@pendor.McKusick.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <199711050002.RAA26493@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > And doesn't "X Windows" contain "Windows"? No, it doesn't (man X). Of course, it doesn't mean that otherwise Microsoft was able to sue MIT or X/Conspiracy, sorry, The Open Group. -- Alex "The" is a registered trademark of The Linguistic Troublemaking Corporation. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 20:09:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08341 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:09:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trojanhorse.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08321 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by trojanhorse.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA00518; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:09:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:09:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null (start a damn mailing list for it!) In-Reply-To: <12273.878682976@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk how about a freebsd-litigation mailing list? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 20:48:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11117 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:48:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11109 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:48:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from faber@ISI.EDU) Received: from ISI.EDU (vex-s.isi.edu [128.9.192.240]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA10315; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:47:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711050447.UAA10315@tnt.isi.edu> To: Terry Lambert Cc: gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 02:00:38 GMT." <199711050200.TAA03653@usr02.primenet.com> X-Url: http://www.isi.edu/~faber Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:47:44 -0800 From: Ted Faber Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Terry Lambert wrote: >> If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. > >"And when they came for 'grep', there was no one left to oppose them..." Don't worry, I'll break all you boggle guys out of prison on my way in. :-) >If the name space is admitted to be the same as the US Trademark name >space, then we are screwed; it's only a matter of time. There are two gross simplifications in that sentence. There is no single "US Trademark Name Space" and more than one namespace relevent to computers (program names, domain names, file format names, API names...). Yes, interactions between trademarks and all those various name spaces are important, but we don't have the resources to fight them all. >> There are plenty of names/trademarks issues in domain name allocation, >> but P&G buying a couple hundred names is nothing compared to dragging >> the IANA staff in front of Congress under the Sherman Antitrust Act > >You've apparently missed that InterNIC has covered the IP address >space allocation base already, with a wholly owned subsidiary, and >the loss of the NSF contract isn't going to do anything (except >maybe deregulate the market and screw us all). I have not. As you mention, this is largely irrelevent, but anyway: First of all, IP address regulation is distinct from domain name regulation: most of those P&G names have no associated address, or map to the same address. Address space allocation has been largely decentralized and privatized for some time. Besides which, 32-bit integers have no real relation to trademarks. Issues with the domain name space are the interesting ones wrt trademark issues, and as long as one agency, InterNIC or subsidiary, is handing domains out, there will be allegations of monopoly. There have been (meritless) civil suits covered in the popular press, and Congress has held hearings on the issue as recently as September (http://www.house.gov/science/hearing.htm#Basic_Research). To my knowledge, noone's actually invoked Antitrust Legislation, but the threat's been bandied about. The NSF contract expiring is only a financial matter; the threat that Congress will decide that the FCC should hand out domain names is considerably worse than deregulation. In any case, the issue is far from dead. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Faber faber@isi.edu USC/ISI Computer Scientist http://www.isi.edu/~faber (310) 822-1511 x190 PGP Key: http://www.isi.edu/~faber/pubkey.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNF/6b4b4eisfQ5rpAQFFBgP/aJf1E5yQggMLkNn/6xNO3fpjSbMXbhlI YlKhm+j7n8tLZnRYqDFUyg3t31oEde8EB/DmOBN0qk+iyEn0LHt6lZsFwrnAPO6C M2VnvxjI62FZxjczPY0iE6c/86zLX1sIMpyPtFeZz8OLjXy++cciyZAeVE7NItkn WI95f3QbFt4= =VHvH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 20:58:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11518 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:58:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11513 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:58:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if2-23.ida.net [208.141.171.80]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01854; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:56:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:55:36 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null (start a damn mailing list for it!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > > how about a freebsd-litigation mailing list? > It shows you how law abiding all of the participants in this group are that no one has gone out and hacked Hasbro for this affront to the dignity of FreeBSD. If Jordan thought more like a mob boss, he would have ordered some cyber-hits on selected Hasbro computers. -- Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 22:00:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15150 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15130 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:00:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA19403; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd019400; Wed Nov 5 05:56:19 1997 Message-ID: <34600A13.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 21:54:27 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Terry Lambert , Ted Faber , gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <18560.878696513@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >- going down his list of "trademark > violations" on ftp.cdrom.com and requesting that all instances of > "boggle" there be deleted. In order to be friendly to ftp.cdrom.com, > our master site (in case you forgot), it also makes sense to do this > in a way which simply eliminates the problem from our end so that > various types of mirror nastiness don't become necessary just over > this one issue (and it will be removed from the 4.4 Lite tree on > ftp.cdrom.com as well, just FYI). it seems to me that this is too much of a coincidence.. My guess is that there is ONE lawyer who has decided that this is a good way to make money. I'll be that he has a list of all the games and in fact is going through everything on the server, and probably a whole bunch of other servers as well. Or maybe just the CDs. Well hear from the monopoly people within a few months I'll wager, as soon as he get's the time to get teh contract with them signed.. "I have a list of your trademark infringements. for only $10,000 I'll sell you the list, and for $10,000 more I'll do all the paperwork required for the first round.... I suggest we change the names of as many other dubious utilities as we can asap... monololy could be 'landowner' or 'hotels'.. I think we should keep items that do not have other sources, just change the names. Things that there are other sources for can go as far as I'm concerned.. ports of the rest, using new names (this includes tetris) would replace most of them. We should look at our tree with the eyes of a lawyer looking for work. I'll bet that's why we got hit twice in 3 months.. I'm quite serious about this.. It may spread beyond the games. it sounds like a leach is active to me.. julian > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 22:02:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15282 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:02:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from artemis.smith-roberts.com ([206.30.140.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15276 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:02:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe@smith-roberts.com) From: joe@smith-roberts.com Received: from joe ([206.30.140.131]) by artemis.smith-roberts.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA26280 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:53:13 GMT Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971105000508.009dde58@smith-roberts.com> X-Sender: joe@smith-roberts.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:05:10 -0600 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: bulliten boards and password protect. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk can you tell me of a good bulliten board to run on freebsd and also somewhere to get or how to password protect certain directorys on my web pages. i need to be able to add and delte users from the list. thanks Joseph Lankford Smith-Roberts joe@smith-roberts.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 22:24:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16504 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:24:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (root@tibet-23.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.9.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16495 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:24:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03238; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:33:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:33:50 -0800 (PST) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <7648.878636689@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > None of these suggestions are the least bit viable, sorry. The legal > beagles who contacted us neither know nor care about any of these things. > They merely have a box to check and will continue coming after us until > those boxes are checked. What about just renaming these things (there were quite a few suggestions for tetris, which I would _love_ to see back), and I can think of a few names for Boggle(tm). Or is this whole thing more than just a trademark infringment? - alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 22:25:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16595 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:25:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (root@tibet-23.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.9.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16587 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:25:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03258; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:41:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:41:01 -0800 (PST) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Mike Smith cc: Charles Mott , hackers@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gettimeofday() overhead In-Reply-To: <199711041315.XAA00406@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > Unfortunately, this requires access to /dev/kmem, and thus your process > must be running as root. IMHO this isn't really an acceptable tradeoff > unless the application already requires it. Naw, just setgid kmem. > OTOH, if +/- 1 second is good enough, a once-a-second timer and a local > call to gettimeofday() would be a simple and straightforward technique, > as was also suggested. Probably right, but more accuracy within reason can't hurt. - alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 22:37:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17183 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:37:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17176 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (mail.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.21]) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA17154; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:35:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:35:28 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Alex Belits cc: Andrew Reilly , benco@pendor.McKusick.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Alex Belits wrote: > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Andrew Reilly wrote: > > > I'm in favour of nuking games. I like fortune, but haven't run it > > since I started to use X (where do you put a logout message, hmmmm?). > > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xdm/Xsetup_0 ~/.login I run X, and I love fortune *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 22:44:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17526 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:44:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17519 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:43:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if2-23.ida.net [208.141.171.80]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA09623; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:43:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:42:43 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Alex cc: Mike Smith , hackers@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gettimeofday() overhead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Alex wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > Unfortunately, this requires access to /dev/kmem, and thus your process > > must be running as root. IMHO this isn't really an acceptable tradeoff > > unless the application already requires it. > > Naw, just setgid kmem. > > > OTOH, if +/- 1 second is good enough, a once-a-second timer and a local > > call to gettimeofday() would be a simple and straightforward technique, > > as was also suggested. > > Probably right, but more accuracy within reason can't hurt. > At this point, accessing the kernel time variable from user space is mainly a point of interest (this is the hackers group, right?). I can read up on how to access /dev/kmem, but how is the kernel symbol table accessed? -- Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 23:24:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19430 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:24:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19348 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:23:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (mail.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.21]) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA17765; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:23:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:23:31 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , Ted Faber , gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <18560.878696513@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > This is why you convince Hasbro's lawyer, and not 12 angry men. > > Why is it so hard for you to understand that Hasbro's lawyer doesn't > give a flying f**k at a rolling donut on this issue? He's doing > exactly what the tetris lawyer did - going down his list of "trademark > violations" on ftp.cdrom.com and requesting that all instances of > "boggle" there be deleted. In order to be friendly to ftp.cdrom.com, > our master site (in case you forgot), it also makes sense to do this > in a way which simply eliminates the problem from our end so that > various types of mirror nastiness don't become necessary just over > this one issue (and it will be removed from the 4.4 Lite tree on > ftp.cdrom.com as well, just FYI). Whoah. One second here. It's being removed from 4.4BSD-LITE??? AFAIK, 4.4BSD_Lite source code is a complete packages distributed by UCB CSRG just before it was disbanded, and it contains all the source from 4.4BSD, with the AT&T stuff taken out. It's a finished package which is unmaintained; or, if it IS maintained, it's maintained by CSRG. Does Walnut Creek CD-ROM have permission from UCB to distribue their 4.4BSD-Lite package with parts removed? Or am I just being stupid? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 23:28:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19738 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19713; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:28:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@quickweb.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id CAA15682; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:29:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971105022925.47573@vmunix.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:29:25 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: Julian Elischer Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] References: <199711040736.CAA00454@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: ; from Julian Elischer on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 12:03:09AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 12:03:09AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > Julian Elischer said: > > > oops I sent this to the wrong address before.. > > > > > > participants: > > > jallison: Samba guru: > > > Andrew Tridgell: wrote Sambe.. Linux hacker > > > Julian: yours truely: > > > > > FreeBSD 2.2.2 on a 200MHz pentium > > > fcntl: 3.16579 secs > > > ipc: 2.63504 secs > > > > > > Linux 2.0.30 on a PPro200 > > > fcntl: 12.2177 secs > > > ipc: 50.4559 secs > > > > > My results with FBSD-current on PPro200 > > > > UP kernel: > > fcntl: 10.735 secs > > ipc: 9.17823 secs > > > > SMP kernel: > > fcntl: 17.8355 secs > > ipc: 9.10841 secs > > > > It appears that the 200MHz Pentium results are for a really fast > > machine :-). Is there a chance that there was an error in the > > Pentium test? Or are the results correct? (Sometimes Pentiums > > are paradoxically faster than PPro's.) I just want to make sure > > that people aren't misinformed that FreeBSD is *that* much faster > > than Linux... > > I just tried 2.2.0 (approx) on a pentium 90 > I didn't have IPC compiled in, so I just did fcntl. > yielding 7.22 secs. > looks like we slowed it down more than a bit.. Hmm. To verify, I just ran it on a PPro 150, 2.2-STABLE circa Oct 1st: fcntl: 13.9273 secs ipc: 11.8795 secs On a PPro 200, 2.2.5-STABLE from today: fcntl: 10.9368 secs ipc: 9.40272 secs Now for the interesting part, a Pentium 166MMX: fcntl: 9.64589 ipc: 7.66043 Could it be a weird PPro thing? The only other difference in the 166 kernel is that the FASTER_5X86_FPU (something like that) is turned on. Oh yeah, the kernel is 2.2.5-STABLE from today as well. I'll see if I have an older machine/kernel around and try out some more tests.. -Mark > > > > > > John > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Win95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. -UGU From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 4 23:31:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20189 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:31:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20184 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:31:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA22723 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:31:44 -0800 (PST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: No more /usr/src/games discussion from me. Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 23:31:44 -0800 Message-ID: <22719.878715104@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk When Jamil Weatherby writes me and tells me that I'm posting too many irrelevant messages to -hackers, I know I've definitely exceeded all reasonable limits on the thread in question and will say no more on the topic here. If you want to continue the debate in private, I'll do my best to indulge you until my fingers wear out. In a way it's kind of annoying, too, since I used to get flack for doing things without "taking it to the people first" but after this experience with the review process, I'm not sure that I'm going to be so quick to ask for feedback in the future. As the old saying goes, it definitely seems to be a lot easier to ask for forgiveness than permission around here. :-( Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 00:08:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22386 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:08:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA22379 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [143.166.12.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA01961; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:06:29 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971105020626.006da974@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 02:06:26 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: >64MB Cc: jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 07:47 PM 11/3/97 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> FreeBSD simply makes the wrong BIOS call. The particular >> BIOS call made by the boot loader is limited to 16 bits >> worth of Kilobytes. > >That's what I said: the BIOS lies. Ok. I guess this is some kind of a cutesy anthropomorphism. The fact is that the BIOS INT 15h AH=88h function returns the best possible answer. The function is limited, by definition, to 63 MB of memory, and it physically cannot return 64 MB, even if you were willing to violate the API. For systems with more than 63 MB of extended memory, it is simply the wrong function to call, and it has been for many years. moral: If you force the BIOS to lie, it will. >> To make matters worse, the kernel >> eventually ignores that answer in preference to the lower >> 16 bits of the actual value stored in CMOS, which is never >> better and often worse, as it truncates the most >> significant bits. > >Only on machines that are anal about not indicating more than 16M >even though the bits are there for 64M for conformance with some >bogus, antiquated IBM AT hardware document. 8-|. Not correct and not on topic. We're talking about $(subject). Off-topic response... In fact, this 16 MB limit was enforced by some serious software compatibility problems with 286-protected mode software, operating systems and utilities which were prevalent at that time. It seems they couldn't squeeze 26 bits into the 24-bit descriptor's base address fields. ;-) All of that software has now been obsolete for so long that, IMHO, any system built in the last half-dozen years does not restrict any of the memory values to 16 MB. Returning to topic... The main problem I was pointing out here is that the CMOS values are being directly probed by the kernel without any reasonable expectation that it is the correct thing to do. In some cases, these CMOS values are actually 24-bit values, having been extended by the addition of 8 additional higher order bits. This permits the BIOS to record and track up to 16 GB of extended memory. But the kernel only probes the lower 16 bits, tossing high order significance. Unfortunately, this bogosity cannot be easily fixed because there is no standardized storage location for the rest of the bits. The best way to determine the amount of memory is to make the appropriate BIOS calls. The bootloader already makes the "64 MB limited" BIOS call and sends this value to the kernel, but for some strange reason, the kernel tosses that value away in favor of the sometimes bogus CMOS value. Using this BIOS call's result instead of tossing it would resolve my complaint about the CMOS groping. To get past the 64 MB limit requires making other BIOS calls, but that's a well-known problem I won't bother to get into again. I've described all of these problems in detail in -hackers before. Search for variations on "e820h", "E820h", "0E820h" etc. >The problem is that the BIOS call made in the boot code should not >be in the boot code at all, I think you don't understand. It must be there. You cannot load the kernel into memory without knowing whether you have any memory. >not that we should increase the size of >the boot code yet again by calling the "good" BIOS call (quoted >because it exists only on newer hardware, not all hardware), and >falling back to the ignored one if it's not there. > >The problem with increasing the boot code size "just a tiny bit" is >that there is *truly* no room for it (the ELF capable boot blocks >that can still boot an a.out kernel have about 12 bytes left). The lack of room doesn't make it the wrong thing to do, it just makes it hard to do. At *least* the "64 MB limited" BIOS call must be in the bootloader. Since 64 MB is enough to load even the largest kernels (for now at least ;-) ), the "good" BIOS calls don't need to be in the bootloader, but that's where I'd put them. Of course, the bootloader would need to know how to fetch some extra code first. I think an extra stage (or a half-stage) would work fine for this. - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 00:50:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25203 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:50:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25192 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:50:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA04877 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:20:58 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA15907; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:09:19 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971105090919.OC28248@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:09:19 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ppp & pppctl References: <199711032241.WAA06861@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711032241.WAA06861@awfulhak.demon.co.uk>; from Brian Somers on Nov 3, 1997 22:41:59 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Brian Somers wrote: > 4. No socket is created by default. > > 1. You *must* set a password in /etc/ppp/ppp.secrets or on the > "set server" command line: > > set server|socket TcpPort|LocalName|none [passwd] [mask] > > 2. If you specify an empty password, you don't need to use the > ``passwd'' command. > 3. You can *always* -USR1 ppp to re-open the socket on > AF_INET:3000+tunno. Please, accompany this by an AF_LOCAL socket example in the ppp.conf files (as a comment), so people will have a quick way of finding out how to use it. > 6. Pppctl will have an ``interactive'' mode, taking away ``telnet''s > attraction. That's great, yep! -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 00:51:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25370 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:51:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25362 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:51:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA05109 for hackers@hub.freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:51:39 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA15997; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:29:45 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971105092945.DF19829@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:29:45 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gettimeofday() overhead References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Mott on Nov 4, 1997 23:42:43 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Charles Mott wrote: > At this point, accessing the kernel time variable from user space is > mainly a point of interest (this is the hackers group, right?). I can > read up on how to access /dev/kmem, but how is the kernel symbol table > accessed? With nlist(3). You should be able to find a number of sample utilities doing it, just watch out for all the setgid kmem things in /usr/*bin. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 01:12:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA26709 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from isbalham.ist.co.uk (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26700 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:12:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham.ist.co.uk (8.8.4/8.8.4) with UUCP id JAA20974; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:05:01 GMT Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:51:25 GMT X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711050043.QAA02361@tnt.isi.edu> References: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 23:49:06 GMT." <199711042349.QAA25437@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:50:53 +0000 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com From: Bob Bishop Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, When this thread got started, I promised myself I'd stay out. So much for personal integrity :-) Give them something like the following: "Dear xxx, We and our predecessors [name them] have referred to and acknowledged your trademark since 1985[?earlier]. If you maintain your position we will of course remove all references to your mark from our products (and you'll lose some free advertising). Best regards," Simple as that. Give them the opportunity not to look like a bunch of heavy-handed totalitarians. Notice you don't promise to remove the software (although you might in fact do that), just reference to the mark. If some player in the computing biz weighs in with a cease and desist on something important, a different approach will be called for anyway. -- Bob Bishop "My name is Bob, and I'm a hack(6) addict." rb@gid.co.uk [Rest of the group mumble sympathetically] From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 01:23:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27122 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:23:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trinity.mit.edu (TRINITY.MIT.EDU [18.70.0.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27117 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mycroft@trinity.mit.edu) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by trinity.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) id EAA07537; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:17:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:17:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711050917.EAA07537@trinity.mit.edu> From: "Charles M. Hannum" To: Tony Overfield Cc: jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: >64MB Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FWIW, the new boot code in NetBSD actually does use the extended BIOS calls to find more memory (and also reads gzipped kernels). This is handy on my development machine with 256MB. B-) (So, now you not only know it can be done, but you know where to find an example...) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 02:11:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00416 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:11:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00411 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:11:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA29285; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:18:45 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:18:41 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Julian Elischer cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Terry Lambert , Ted Faber , gdk@ccomp.inode.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <34600A13.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > it seems to me that this is too much of a coincidence.. > My guess is that there is ONE lawyer who has decided that > this is a good way to make money. I'll be that he has a list of all the > games and in fact is going through everything on the server, and > probably a whole bunch of other servers as well. > Or maybe just the CDs. > Well hear from the monopoly people within a few months I'll wager, > as soon as he get's the time to get teh contract with them signed.. > "I have a list of your trademark infringements. > for only $10,000 I'll sell you the list, and for $10,000 more I'll > do all the paperwork required for the first round.... It will be otherwise reasonable prediction, the only problem is, Monopoly is a Hasbro game, too. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 03:46:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04894 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04889 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24890; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:46:17 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA29950; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:46:16 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971105124616.58971@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:46:16 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Terry Lambert Cc: tom@sdf.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Password verification (Was: cvs commit: ports/x11/kdebase - Imported sources) References: <19971103191349.30502@bitbox.follo.net> <199711042333.QAA24121@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <199711042333.QAA24121@usr02.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 11:33:29PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 11:33:29PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Is it restricted to only let a user check his own password? Or could > > > > we make it only check a users own password fairly easily? > > > > > > How would that be useful? > > > > Security. If a user can check other people's passwords, he can > > brute-force passwords. If he can't, he can't. :-) > > /usr/bin/login > rshd > telnetd > rlogind > pop3d > > ....uh, the user can already check other peoples passwords this way. The only one of these that is universal is /usr/bin/login; it still contain a slow-down to make it hard to use for brute-force attacks. And I'd still say that verifying his/her own password is a priviledge that is logical for a user to have; checking other people's passwords isn't (or at least isn't in the same category.) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 04:40:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA07526 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gw.itfs.nsk.su (gw.itfs.nsk.su [193.124.36.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA07520 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:40:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from itfs!news!nnd%itfs.nsk.su@gw.itfs.nsk.su) Received: from itfs.UUCP (root@localhost) by gw.itfs.nsk.su (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id SAA10861 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:40:02 +0600 Received: by itfs.nsk.su; Wed, 5 Nov 97 18:43:19 +0600 (NSK) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by news.itfs.nsk.su (8.7.5/8.6.12) id SAA11816; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:30:07 +0600 (NSK) From: nnd@itfs.nsk.su To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cyclades :( Date: 5 Nov 1997 12:30:04 GMT Message-ID: <63posc$6c2@news.itfs.nsk.su> References: <199711011653.IAA03064@implode.root.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman wrote: > > Driver's text inspection shows that there is ONLY ONE > >significant difference with 'standard FreeBSD's' cy-driver: > >(this is a 'diff -bu' result for /sys/i386/isa/cy.c version > >1.55 of 1997/09/21) > > > >--- cy.c.ORIG Sat Nov 1 13:33:19 1997 > >+++ cy.c Sat Nov 1 13:36:55 1997 > >@@ -410,7 +404,7 @@ > > #endif > > > > static int cy_chip_offset[] = { > >- 0x0000, 0x0200, 0x0400, 0x0600, 0x0100, 0x0300, 0x0500, 0x0700, > >+ 0x0000, 0x0400, 0x0800, 0x0c00, 0x0200, 0x0600, 0x0a00, 0x0e00 > > }; > > static int cy_nr_cd1400s[NCY]; > > static int cy_total_devices; > > > > > > Can someone with Cyclom-8/16YeP (and problems ;-) > >test this patch ? I myself can not test it because my only ONE > >Cyclom-16YeP now busily serves 12 modems on Linux box. > > > > Partial "correctnes proof" for this patch can be found > >in (working) Linux 'cy' (or 'cz') driver which uses the same > >chip_offset addresses as in "patched" driver, but not as in > >original FreeBSD's 'cy' driver. > If you look at the cy_inb/cy_outb functions in cyreg.h, you'll see that > the offset is adjusted (shifted left by one bit) for the PCI card, making > the appropriate adjustment. The above change (which has the left shift built > in to the numbers) would effectively double this shift. What I'm saying is > that unless I'm really missing something, the patch can't be correct. I still can not test proposed patch with my only one Cyclom-16YeP, so I spend some time and find the 'correctness proof' for this patch in CVS/commitlogs ;-) First - exerpt from CVS/CVSROOT/commitlogs/sys: >bde 1997/09/02 18:50:25 PDT > > Modified files: > sys/i386/isa cy.c > Log: > Cleaned up revs 1.36-1.40 (mainly disordered declarations, non-bogus > indentation (it is supposed to be bogus to match sio.c), and long lines). > > Revision Changes Path > 1.53 +147 -121 src/sys/i386/isa/cy.c Second - exerpt from cvs ... diff -u -r1.52 -r1.53 src/sys/i386/isa/cy.c >@@ -404,20 +406,13 @@ > static u_int cy_timeouts; > #endif > >+static int cy_chip_offset[] = { >+ 0x0000, 0x0200, 0x0400, 0x0600, 0x0100, 0x0300, 0x0500, 0x0700, >+}; > static int cy_nr_cd1400s[NCY]; > static int cy_total_devices; > #undef RxFifoThreshold > static int volatile RxFifoThreshold = (CD1400_RX_FIFO_SIZE / 2); >-static int cy_chip_offset[] = { >- 0x0000, >- 0x0400, >- 0x0800, >- 0x0c00, >- 0x0200, >- 0x0600, >- 0x0a00, >- 0x0e00 >-}; > > static int > sioprobe(dev) Here you can see (unexplained in the commitlog) "division by 2" operation on the 'cy_chip_offset' array elements. Either Bruce Evans can explain his patch or we can revert this part of it (i.e. cy_chip_offset array values "division by 2"). More over - the diffs which can be found on the Cyclades ftp site for FreeBSD-2.1.[56] and serves to add PCI support for previous version of 'cy' driver contains the same declaration for cy_chip_offset array as in FreeBSD's rev. 1.52 of src/sys/i386/isa/cy.c. N.Dudorov From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 05:21:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA09324 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:21:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA09314; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA29882; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:24:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711051324.FAA29882@implode.root.com> To: nnd@itfs.nsk.su cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, bde@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cyclades :( In-reply-to: Your message of "05 Nov 1997 12:30:04 GMT." <63posc$6c2@news.itfs.nsk.su> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 05:24:07 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You're right - it appears the Bruce messed up the offsets when he "fixed" the style/indentation. I don't have a -current machine here with the Cyclom-Y in it, so I didn't notice the brokeness. Bruce? -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project >David Greenman wrote: >> > Driver's text inspection shows that there is ONLY ONE >> >significant difference with 'standard FreeBSD's' cy-driver: >> >(this is a 'diff -bu' result for /sys/i386/isa/cy.c version >> >1.55 of 1997/09/21) >> > >> >--- cy.c.ORIG Sat Nov 1 13:33:19 1997 >> >+++ cy.c Sat Nov 1 13:36:55 1997 >> >@@ -410,7 +404,7 @@ >> > #endif >> > >> > static int cy_chip_offset[] = { >> >- 0x0000, 0x0200, 0x0400, 0x0600, 0x0100, 0x0300, 0x0500, 0x0700, >> >+ 0x0000, 0x0400, 0x0800, 0x0c00, 0x0200, 0x0600, 0x0a00, 0x0e00 >> > }; >> > static int cy_nr_cd1400s[NCY]; >> > static int cy_total_devices; >> > >> > >> > Can someone with Cyclom-8/16YeP (and problems ;-) >> >test this patch ? I myself can not test it because my only ONE >> >Cyclom-16YeP now busily serves 12 modems on Linux box. >> > >> > Partial "correctnes proof" for this patch can be found >> >in (working) Linux 'cy' (or 'cz') driver which uses the same >> >chip_offset addresses as in "patched" driver, but not as in >> >original FreeBSD's 'cy' driver. > >> If you look at the cy_inb/cy_outb functions in cyreg.h, you'll see that >> the offset is adjusted (shifted left by one bit) for the PCI card, making >> the appropriate adjustment. The above change (which has the left shift built >> in to the numbers) would effectively double this shift. What I'm saying is >> that unless I'm really missing something, the patch can't be correct. > > I still can not test proposed patch with my only one >Cyclom-16YeP, so I spend some time and find the 'correctness proof' >for this patch in CVS/commitlogs ;-) > >First - exerpt from CVS/CVSROOT/commitlogs/sys: > >>bde 1997/09/02 18:50:25 PDT >> >> Modified files: >> sys/i386/isa cy.c >> Log: >> Cleaned up revs 1.36-1.40 (mainly disordered declarations, non-bogus >> indentation (it is supposed to be bogus to match sio.c), and long lines). >> >> Revision Changes Path >> 1.53 +147 -121 src/sys/i386/isa/cy.c > > >Second - exerpt from cvs ... diff -u -r1.52 -r1.53 src/sys/i386/isa/cy.c > >>@@ -404,20 +406,13 @@ >> static u_int cy_timeouts; >> #endif >> >>+static int cy_chip_offset[] = { >>+ 0x0000, 0x0200, 0x0400, 0x0600, 0x0100, 0x0300, 0x0500, 0x0700, >>+}; >> static int cy_nr_cd1400s[NCY]; >> static int cy_total_devices; >> #undef RxFifoThreshold >> static int volatile RxFifoThreshold = (CD1400_RX_FIFO_SIZE / 2); >>-static int cy_chip_offset[] = { >>- 0x0000, >>- 0x0400, >>- 0x0800, >>- 0x0c00, >>- 0x0200, >>- 0x0600, >>- 0x0a00, >>- 0x0e00 >>-}; >> >> static int >> sioprobe(dev) > > > Here you can see (unexplained in the commitlog) >"division by 2" operation on the 'cy_chip_offset' array >elements. > > Either Bruce Evans can explain his patch or >we can revert this part of it (i.e. cy_chip_offset array >values "division by 2"). > > More over - the diffs which can be found on the >Cyclades ftp site for FreeBSD-2.1.[56] and serves to add >PCI support for previous version of 'cy' driver contains >the same declaration for cy_chip_offset array as in >FreeBSD's rev. 1.52 of src/sys/i386/isa/cy.c. > > N.Dudorov > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 06:43:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA13141 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from seabass.progroup.com (catfish.progroup.com [206.24.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA13135 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:43:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from craig@tuna.progroup.com) Received: from ProGroup.COM (tuna.progroup.com [206.24.122.5]) by seabass.progroup.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA03961; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by ProGroup.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA02406; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:42:46 -0800 From: craig@tuna.progroup.com (Craig W. Shaver) Message-Id: <199711051442.GAA02406@ProGroup.COM> Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] To: mark@vmunix.com (Mark Mayo) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:42:46 -0800 (PST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19971105022925.47573@vmunix.com> from "Mark Mayo" at Nov 5, 97 02:29:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 12:03:09AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > del .... > > Hmm. To verify, I just ran it on a PPro 150, 2.2-STABLE circa > Oct 1st: > fcntl: 13.9273 secs > ipc: 11.8795 secs 60mhz bus > > On a PPro 200, 2.2.5-STABLE from today: > fcntl: 10.9368 secs > ipc: 9.40272 secs 66mhz bus > > Now for the interesting part, a Pentium 166MMX: > fcntl: 9.64589 > ipc: 7.66043 66mhz bus > > Could it be a weird PPro thing? The only other difference in the > 166 kernel is that the FASTER_5X86_FPU (something like that) > is turned on. Oh yeah, the kernel is 2.2.5-STABLE from today as well. > > I'll see if I have an older machine/kernel around and try out some > more tests.. > > -Mark -- Craig Shaver (craig@progroup.com) (415)390-0654 Productivity Group POB 60458 Sunnyvale, CA 94088 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 07:38:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA16345 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:38:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA16339 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:38:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa18875; 5 Nov 97 10:37 EST Received: from stretch.cs.virginia.edu (atf3r@stretch-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.14]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11932; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from atf3r@localhost) by stretch.cs.virginia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA28154; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:37:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:37:48 -0500 (EST) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: adrian@virginia.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Adding this to the fact that the "games" there are antiquated and > probably never actually played by anyone suggests, to me, a strong > need to simply nuke the bloody things once and for all and stop > distributing games from anywhere but /usr/ports/games (where fortune, > arguably one of the few "games" still in wide use, could easily be > moved). Maybe they aren't any fun to the "old guard", but newbies often find them entertaining. This can be anyone form a child to a spouse. My wife liked playing hangman for a while. What can I say? ;-) The games is already a separate distribution bundle, so other than fixing the legal issues as the arise, I'd like to see them stay in the base source tree. It's kind of a heritage/tradition thing to me. Besides, what happens to section 6 of the manual if you ditch the games? Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualzation Lab -->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 07:47:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA17082 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17074 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:47:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11748; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:47:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from henrich) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:47:37 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199711051547.KAA11748@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: mark@vmunix.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hackers References: <63pai1$2u9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #1 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.hackers you write: >On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 12:03:09AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: >> >> On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: >> >> > Julian Elischer said: >> > > oops I sent this to the wrong address before.. >> > > >> > > participants: >> > > jallison: Samba guru: >> > > Andrew Tridgell: wrote Sambe.. Linux hacker >> > > Julian: yours truely: > > > >> > > FreeBSD 2.2.2 on a 200MHz pentium >> > > fcntl: 3.16579 secs >> > > ipc: 2.63504 secs >> > > >> > > Linux 2.0.30 on a PPro200 >> > > fcntl: 12.2177 secs >> > > ipc: 50.4559 secs >> > > >> > My results with FBSD-current on PPro200 >> > >> > UP kernel: >> > fcntl: 10.735 secs >> > ipc: 9.17823 secs >> > >> > SMP kernel: >> > fcntl: 17.8355 secs >> > ipc: 9.10841 secs >> > >> > It appears that the 200MHz Pentium results are for a really fast >> > machine :-). Is there a chance that there was an error in the >> > Pentium test? Or are the results correct? (Sometimes Pentiums >> > are paradoxically faster than PPro's.) I just want to make sure >> > that people aren't misinformed that FreeBSD is *that* much faster >> > than Linux... >> >> I just tried 2.2.0 (approx) on a pentium 90 >> I didn't have IPC compiled in, so I just did fcntl. >> yielding 7.22 secs. >> looks like we slowed it down more than a bit.. If someone will pony up the code their running, I'll give this a whirl on my P-II/300 -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 08:24:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19228 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19219 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:24:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from isleiv.ifi.uio.no (2602@isleiv.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.24]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.7/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with SMTP id RAA21092 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:24:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (dag-erli@localhost) by isleiv.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:24:26 GMT To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No more /usr/src/games discussion from me. References: <22719.878715104@time.cdrom.com> Organization: KRST X-url: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 05 Nov 1997 17:24:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Tue, 04 Nov 1997 23:31:44 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > When Jamil Weatherby writes me and tells me that I'm posting too many > irrelevant messages to -hackers, I know I've definitely exceeded all IMHO, Jordan, you should be able to judge for yourself what is relevant and what is not. If you think the /usr/games discussion is relevant, then it g*****n well *is*, at least until the name "Jamil Weatherby" appears prominently on the list of FreeBSD core team members like yours does. On the other hand, if not just one but dozens of readers complain about the thread, then you have a problem. However, I can't see that this was the case here.. -- * Finrod (INTJ) * Unix weenie * dag-erli@ifi.uio.no * cellular +47-92835919 * RFC1123: "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 08:31:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19583 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:31:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19575 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:31:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA03915 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:31:13 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711051631.RAA03915@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Can a PII & a P6 coexist ??? To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:31:13 +0100 (MET) From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.dk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Getting ones hands on a 440LX based MB isn't easy without getting thiose dreaded slot 1's as a "bargain". Most vendors (cleverly) supplies Socket8->Slot1 adapters so... My question is, would a P6 and a PII coexist in a dual CPU Motherboard ?? I know I ask the most stupid questions :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 09:03:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21983 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:03:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from burka.carrier.kiev.ua (archer@burka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.193.193.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21949 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:02:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archer@burka.carrier.kiev.ua) Received: (from archer@localhost) by burka.carrier.kiev.ua (8.8.6/8.Who.Cares) id TAA18495 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:02:29 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <19971105190225.29498@burka.carrier.kiev.ua> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:02:25 +0200 From: Alexander Litvin To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Panic -- advise needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk May be, sombody can give us advise on the following panic. This is on our proxy server: P-II 266, 128M RAM, ASUS P2L97, Intel 440LX chipset, "almost" 2.2.5 (2.2.5 with kernel and lkm's from STABLE some two days after 2.2.5 released). Quite busy -- squid getting about 50000 requests per hour at load peaks. May be I'm missing something and simply need to reconfigure kernel in some way? Output of (kgdb)bt: -------------------------------------------------------------------- #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:266 #1 0xf010fc92 in panic (fmt=0xf0180c5f "page fault") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:390 #2 0xf01817c6 in trap_fatal (frame=0x2feeb3a) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:742 #3 0xf01812b4 in trap_pfault (frame=0x2feeb3a, usermode=0) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:653 #4 0xf0180f8f in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 1952972816, tf_edi = 0, tf_esi = -215302907, tf_ebp = -272630052, tf_isp = 50260834, tf_ebx = -212382784, tf_edx = 1201, tf_ecx = -219720704, tf_eax = 15735661, tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 2, tf_eip = 15735767, tf_cs = 8, tf_eflags = 66178, tf_esp = 16, tf_ss = 16}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:311 #5 0xf01bd7 in ?? () #6 0xf0119da7 in soo_close (fp=0xf3574bc0, p=0xf2e75400) at ../../kern/sys_socket.c:206 #7 0xf0108f4c in closef (fp=0xf3574bc0, p=0xf2e75400) at ../../kern/kern_descrip.c:896 #8 0xf0108639 in close (p=0xf2e75400, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84) at ../../kern/kern_descrip.c:392 #9 0xf0181a03 in syscall (frame={tf_es = 135135271, tf_ds = -272695257, tf_edi = 8398976, tf_esi = 828200, tf_ebp = -272639180, tf_isp = -272629788, tf_ebx = 1191, tf_edx = 0, tf_ecx = 0, tf_eax = 6, tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 135079041, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 582, tf_esp = -272639224, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890 #10 0x80d2481 in ?? () #11 0x16967 in ?? () #12 0x9249 in ?? () #13 0xa157 in ?? () #14 0x1ebce in ?? () #15 0x1095 in ?? () ----------------------------------------------------------------------- kernel config file: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- machine "i386" ident zebra maxusers 160 options FAILSAFE options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel config kernel root on sd0 dumps on sd0 cpu "I586_CPU" # aka Pentium(tm) cpu "I686_CPU" # aka Pentium Pro(tm) options "COMPAT_43" options SYSVSHM options SYSVSEM options SYSVMSG options "MD5" options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor options INET #Internet communications protocols pseudo-device ether #Generic Ethernet pseudo-device loop #Network loopback device pseudo-device bpfilter 4 #Berkeley packet filter pseudo-device disc #Discard device options FFS #Fast filesystem options NQNFS #Enable NQNFS lease checking options PROCFS #Process filesystem options NSWAPDEV=4 options QUOTA #enable disk quotas controller scbus0 #base SCSI code device sd0 #SCSI disks device sd1 #SCSI disks device sd2 #SCSI disks options SCSI_REPORT_GEOMETRY pseudo-device pty 16 #Pseudo ttys - can go as high as 256 pseudo-device speaker #Play IBM BASIC-style noises out your speaker pseudo-device log #Kernel syslog interface (/dev/klog) pseudo-device gzip #Exec gzipped a.out's pseudo-device vn #Vnode driver (turns a file into a device) pseudo-device snp 3 #Snoop device - to look at pty/vty/etc.. pseudo-device ccd 4 #Concatenated disk driver controller isa0 options "AUTO_EOI_1" options BOUNCE_BUFFERS options "MAXMEM=(128*1024)" device sc0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector scintr options MAXCONS=16 # number of virtual consoles device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" iosiz 0x0 flags 0x0 irq 13 vector npxintr controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 options FDSEEKWAIT=16 device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" tty irq 4 vector siointr device ed0 at isa? port 0x280 net irq 5 iomem 0xd8000 vector edintr device ed1 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 5 iomem 0xd8000 vector edintr controller pci0 controller ahc0 device de0 ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- Alexander Litvin Duty Postmaster, Lucky Net Ltd. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 09:12:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22429 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:12:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from walter.doc.ic.ac.uk (walter.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22420 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:12:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31] ([4KD86pjGwt5Qv72qN35CVPuXqi1TFeWH]) by walter.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xT8yJ-00007a-00; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:10:28 +0000 Received: from ash1.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.16.29] ([fA7TalRD9cTjaxmJflmo8UAADOVSgsTz]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xT8xi-0000ov-00; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:09:50 +0000 Received: from njs3 by ash1.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0xT8x3-0002ux-00; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:09:09 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:09:09 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Network card manuals Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any network card manufacturers who publish freely available detailed manuals on their cards for device driver programmers. I'm trying to learn device driver programming, and thought I'd start by examining some of FreeBSD's, but its all greek without some background docs. I've tried Intel, 3com and SMC's web sites but all I found were terse datasheets that don't help much. Intels manuals on the Pentium etc were excellent though :) Thanks, Niall Smart From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 09:15:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22586 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:15:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from pds-gateway.pdspc.com ([207.170.17.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22580 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khanson@pdspc.com) Received: by pds-gateway.pdspc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:16:10 -0600 Message-ID: <91DD7FDA88E4D011BED00000C0DD87E7124C39@pds-gateway.pdspc.com> From: Kenny Hanson To: "FreeBSD Hackers (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Can a PII & a P6 coexist ??? Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:16:08 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA22582 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've never heard of those kinds of adapters... Intel has a pretty tight lock on Slot 1 technology (i.e. against the law to reverse engineer) so I can't imagine that anybody would be able to engineer a socket8 to slot1 adapter. Of course, I could be wrong :-) I'm not 100% positive on this, but my guesstimate is no dice. Slot 1 is completely different than Socket 8 and requires a whole different kind of wiring; different control lines and data lines to the 440LX (AGP Set). You'd have to design a whole new chipset to handle the different processors. Kenny Hanson, Senior Research Analyst Paragon Development Systems Email: khanson@pdspc.com Web: http://www.pdspc.com Phone: (800) 966-6090 Fax: (414) 569-5390 > Getting ones hands on a 440LX based MB isn't easy without getting > thiose dreaded slot 1's as a "bargain". Most vendors (cleverly) > supplies Socket8->Slot1 adapters so... > My question is, would a P6 and a PII coexist in a dual CPU Motherboard > ?? > > I know I ask the most stupid questions :) > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-=- > Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD > Core Team > Even more code to hack -- will it ever end > .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 09:49:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24730 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:49:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from pds-gateway.pdspc.com ([207.170.17.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24720 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:49:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khanson@pdspc.com) Received: by pds-gateway.pdspc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:49:52 -0600 Message-ID: <91DD7FDA88E4D011BED00000C0DD87E7124C3A@pds-gateway.pdspc.com> From: Kenny Hanson To: "FreeBSD Hackers (E-mail)" Subject: FW: Can a PII & a P6 coexist ??? Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:49:51 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA24724 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I stand corrected... first of all, like a dork, I mixed up the P6 and P5. Second, I have now heard of those kinds of adapters. I think you'd have some timing issues but it would be kind of interesting to find out eh? Because of the difference in cache speeds I think you'd run into some problems. Research! More research before ya open your dang mouth Kenny!!! > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenny Hanson > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 11:16 AM > To: FreeBSD Hackers (E-mail) > Subject: RE: Can a PII & a P6 coexist ??? > > I've never heard of those kinds of adapters... Intel has a pretty > tight lock on Slot 1 > technology (i.e. against the law to reverse engineer) so I can't > imagine that anybody > would be able to engineer a socket8 to slot1 adapter. Of course, I > could be wrong :-) > > I'm not 100% positive on this, but my guesstimate is no dice. Slot 1 > is completely > different than Socket 8 and requires a whole different kind of wiring; > different > control lines and data lines to the 440LX (AGP Set). You'd have to > design a whole > new chipset to handle the different processors. > > Kenny Hanson, Senior Research Analyst > Paragon Development Systems > Email: khanson@pdspc.com > Web: http://www.pdspc.com > Phone: (800) 966-6090 > Fax: (414) 569-5390 > > > Getting ones hands on a 440LX based MB isn't easy without getting > thiose dreaded slot 1's as a "bargain". Most vendors (cleverly) > supplies Socket8->Slot1 adapters so... > My question is, would a P6 and a PII coexist in a dual CPU Motherboard > ?? > > I know I ask the most stupid questions :) > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-=- > Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD > Core Team > Even more code to hack -- will it ever end > .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 10:20:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26765 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:20:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26760 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:20:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xT9y8-0000kJ-00; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:14:20 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:14:10 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Kenny Hanson cc: "FreeBSD Hackers (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Can a PII & a P6 coexist ??? In-Reply-To: <91DD7FDA88E4D011BED00000C0DD87E7124C39@pds-gateway.pdspc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Kenny Hanson wrote: > would be able to engineer a socket8 to slot1 adapter. Of course, I > could be wrong :-) > > I'm not 100% positive on this, but my guesstimate is no dice. Slot 1 is > completely > different than Socket 8 and requires a whole different kind of wiring; No. Intel makes a socket 8 to slot 1 adapter. Socket 8 and slot 1 are very similar. Basically, it is small card that plugs into the slot 1, with a socket 8 on it. I have not seen a slot 1 to socket 8 adapter. Would be rather cumbersome. Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 10:26:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27228 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:26:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27215 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:26:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.7.3) id TAA04134; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:26:01 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711051826.TAA04134@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: Can a PII & a P6 coexist ??? In-Reply-To: <91DD7FDA88E4D011BED00000C0DD87E7124C39@pds-gateway.pdspc.com> from Kenny Hanson at "Nov 5, 97 11:16:08 am" To: khanson@pdspc.com (Kenny Hanson) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:26:01 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.dk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Kenny Hanson who wrote: > I've never heard of those kinds of adapters... Intel has a pretty tight > lock on Slot 1 technology (i.e. against the law to reverse engineer) > so I can't imagine that anybody > would be able to engineer a socket8 to slot1 adapter. Of course, I > could be wrong :-) Go look at www.tyan.com & www.asus.com, and you will see that they exist, I've even had one in my hand (don't know what make it was though) > I'm not 100% positive on this, but my guesstimate is no dice. Slot 1 is > completely > different than Socket 8 and requires a whole different kind of wiring; > different > control lines and data lines to the 440LX (AGP Set). You'd have to > design a whole > new chipset to handle the different processors. Nope, not exactly, the PII was first used with the 440FX (natoma) P6 chipset, and that works.. I havn't looked at the specs though, but given the extremely simple layout of the Socket8->Slot1 adapters, I'd say Intel just took the P6 pinout and put it on an edge connector instead, well, more or less. As I see it, Slot 1 was not made due to technical/egineering problems, its just sheer marketing (remember the 486SX & 487SX story some years ago), and its lots cheaper to produce... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 10:53:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28654 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:53:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [195.1.171.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28646 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:53:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) From: sthaug@nethelp.no Received: (qmail 20047 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Nov 1997 18:53:26 +0000 (GMT) To: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network card manuals In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:09:09 +0000" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.28.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 19:53:26 +0100 Message-ID: <20045.878756006@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm wondering if anyone knows of any network card manufacturers who > publish freely available detailed manuals on their cards for device driver > programmers. I'm trying to learn device driver programming, and thought > I'd start by examining some of FreeBSD's, but its all greek without some > background docs. I've tried Intel, 3com and SMC's web sites but all I > found were terse datasheets that don't help much. DEC has some very good and detailed manuals available on the net. Check out Chris G Demetriou's list of DEC hardware documentation at ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/misc/dec-docs/index.html which has pointers to the 21040, 21041, 21140 etc manuals. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 10:59:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29014 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:59:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29009 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:59:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA14121; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:58:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711051858.LAA14121@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: >64MB To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:58:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971105020626.006da974@bugs.us.dell.com> from "Tony Overfield" at Nov 5, 97 02:06:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The bootloader already makes the "64 MB limited" BIOS call and sends > this value to the kernel, but for some strange reason, the kernel > tosses that value away in favor of the sometimes bogus CMOS value. > Using this BIOS call's result instead of tossing it would resolve > my complaint about the CMOS groping. The problem with this approach is "keyhole memory allocations" for soft IDE drive tables and APM BIOS data that can't be overwritten. This is a common practice among some PC manufacturers (who will remain nameless). At least the "base memory" in the CMOS must be examined to determine memory which can not be given over to the kernel for it to scribble on. > >The problem is that the BIOS call made in the boot code should not > >be in the boot code at all, > > I think you don't understand. It must be there. You cannot load > the kernel into memory without knowing whether you have any memory. The kernel loads at 1M, regardless of whether there is memory there or not. There is no graceful failure mode possible for a failure to load yourself. Given this, a kernel with VM86() capabilities loaded into however much memory it takes, starting at 1M, can make VM86() calls to determine how much memory is there. You yourself note that the CMOS examination for memory sizing is bogusly used at present ...and that it occurs *after* the kernel is loaded. > At *least* the "64 MB limited" BIOS call must be in the bootloader. At present, and only because the call historically can't be made by the kernel in protected mode. That's close to being fixed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 11:12:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29968 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29962 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15779; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:12:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from henrich) Message-ID: <19971105141218.13444@crh.cl.msu.edu> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:12:18 -0500 From: Charles Henrich To: Julian Elischer Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] References: <199711051547.KAA11748@crh.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Julian Elischer on Wed, Nov 05, 1997 at 09:34:46AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On the subject of Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] > > FreeBSD 2.2.2 on a 200MHz pentium > > fcntl: 3.16579 secs > > ipc: 2.63504 secs > > Linux 2.0.30 on a PPro200 > > fcntl: 12.2177 secs > > ipc: 50.4559 secs > [Julian Elischer] results with FBSD-current on PPro200 > UP kernel: > fcntl: 10.735 secs > ipc: 9.17823 secs > SMP kernel: > fcntl: 17.8355 secs > ipc: 9.10841 secs My results on a P-II/300 (2.2.5-RELEASE): NPROCS=60 NSEMS=20 NUMOPS=10000 fcntl: 7.13272 secs ipc: 5.9866 secs -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 11:24:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00889 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:24:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr02.primenet.com (tlambert@usr02.primenet.com [206.165.6.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00883 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA15509; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:23:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711051923.MAA15509@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? To: adrian@virginia.edu Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:23:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" at Nov 5, 97 10:37:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I didn't want to hit the lists again, since you all know how I feel about this now (*STRONGLY*!). But... > Maybe they aren't any fun to the "old guard", but newbies often > find them entertaining. This can be anyone form a child to a spouse. My > wife liked playing hangman for a while. What can I say? ;-) > > The games is already a separate distribution bundle, so other > than fixing the legal issues as the arise, I'd like to see them stay in > the base source tree. It's kind of a heritage/tradition thing to me. I have to say that my introduction to UNIX was via the games. It was the reason I learned how to login, how to cd, how to ls, when to use "./" when a program wasn't in my path. Later, it was the reason I learned how to use "stty" to restor the terminal after a game crashed, and even introduced me to csh's "!!" and "^" syntax. Now there is much less incentive to learn how computers work, mostly because there is so much fluff between the user and the OS environment that you can't get an intuitive feel for the interactions any more. However, there is a small percentage of people (myself included) who just don't find "Mortal Combat" or "Myst" or "Quake" to be impressive; among these are going to be the next generation of technically competent people (IMO). You don't learn how a computer works playing "Myst", or multistate logic (like "Adventure" teaches) playing "Mario". If you kill the games, you damage "recruitment". Anyway, that's my opinion. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 11:49:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02513 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:49:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from global.com (global.com [206.40.50.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02494; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:49:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gopu@global.com) Message-ID: <3460CCE9.E558C8D9@global.com> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 11:45:45 -0800 From: Gopakumar H Pillai Organization: Global Automation Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Book on FreeBSD FileSystem? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Could anyone tell me about a good book which talks inside out of FreeBSD 2.2.2 file system or 4.4 BSD file system (I think FreeBSD 2.2.2 follows 4.4 BSD FS). -- --Gopu (gopu@global.com) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 12:19:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04573 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:19:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from unix.tfs.net (root@unix.tfs.net [199.79.146.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04566 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@argus.tfs.net) Received: from argus.tfs.net (node57.tfs.net [207.2.220.57]) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13032; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:17:51 -0600 Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus.tfs.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA01439; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:18:58 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199711052018.OAA01439@argus.tfs.net> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <199711051923.MAA15509@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 5, 97 07:23:37 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:18:57 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-to: jbryant@tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE #0: Wed Jul 9 01:01:24 CDT 1997 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > I didn't want to hit the lists again, since you all know how I feel > about this now (*STRONGLY*!). But... > > > Maybe they aren't any fun to the "old guard", but newbies often > > find them entertaining. This can be anyone form a child to a spouse. My > > wife liked playing hangman for a while. What can I say? ;-) > > > > The games is already a separate distribution bundle, so other > > than fixing the legal issues as the arise, I'd like to see them stay in > > the base source tree. It's kind of a heritage/tradition thing to me. > > I have to say that my introduction to UNIX was via the games. > > It was the reason I learned how to login, how to cd, how to ls, > when to use "./" when a program wasn't in my path. Later, it > was the reason I learned how to use "stty" to restor the terminal > after a game crashed, and even introduced me to csh's "!!" and "^" > syntax. > > Now there is much less incentive to learn how computers work, mostly > because there is so much fluff between the user and the OS environment > that you can't get an intuitive feel for the interactions any more. > > However, there is a small percentage of people (myself included) who > just don't find "Mortal Combat" or "Myst" or "Quake" to be impressive; > among these are going to be the next generation of technically > competent people (IMO). You don't learn how a computer works playing > "Myst", or multistate logic (like "Adventure" teaches) playing "Mario". > > If you kill the games, you damage "recruitment". > > Anyway, that's my opinion. terry, [sorry jordan, but i have to do this], i have to agree wholeheartedly. we must keep in mind that unix itself was invented in order to play games. i even occasionally use the cheesy version of backgammon. anyone got source for "Space Travel"? jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 12:22:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04780 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:22:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from monk.via.net (monk.via.net [140.174.204.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04768 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:21:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe@via.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by monk.via.net (8.6.11/8.6.12) id MAA27359 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:11:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:11:32 -0800 From: Joe McGuckin Message-Id: <199711052011.MAA27359@monk.via.net> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 'sys' is consuming %50 of cpu X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've got a web server that was just upgraded to a 300Mhz Pentium II. Now the load average is down to a more manageable '20'. This machine has around 3K tcp connections to it according to netstat. Here they are listed by type: CLOSE_WAIT 5 LAST_ACK 25 ESTABLISHED 443 SYN_RCVD 59 FIN_WAIT_1 341 LISTEN 1 TIME_WAIT 723 FIN_WAIT_2 1716 CLOSING 29 One thing I've noticed is that vmstat reports that the kernel is using over 50% of the cpu: procs memory page disks faults cpu r b w avm fre flt re pi po fr sr s0 s1 in sy cs us sy id 63 1 0469488 46096 303 0 0 0 260 110 3 46 1339 4284 2445 16 54 30 31 1 0470192 45084 370 0 0 0 253 0 0 23 1572 5277 3150 13 87 0 60 1 0469216 43668 530 0 0 0 380 0 2 32 1574 5162 2172 17 83 0 50 7 0468076 41548 465 0 0 0 348 0 12 73 1561 5172 2203 15 85 0 5535 0472800 39856 384 0 0 0 203 0 0 163 1588 4749 1836 13 87 0 7511 0476216 38988 776 0 0 0 514 0 0 96 1595 5835 2150 24 74 2 5 1 0479988 39852 596 0 0 0 598 0 0 33 1731 6267 3114 20 80 0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 users Load 18.18 12.81 13.37 Wed Nov 5 11:53 Mem:KB 3112 1108 464516 1316 41264 VN PAGER SWAP PAGER 54716 1976 3927692 8464 Free in out in out Act 111568 1108 466136 1316 49780 count 86 All 247736 1980 3942260 8556 pages 163 358 75 3420 3024 485 5417 1359 198 346 59600 cow Interrupts Proc:r p d s w Csw Trp Sys Int Sof Flt 49884 zfod 1336 total 64.5%Sys 17.3%Intr 16.44 509 4984 1336 1.99 374 59180 wire 092 clk0 irq0 139168 act 38 rtc0 irq8 68.0%Sys 16.4%Intr 14.=========+++++++++>>>>>>> 2096 inact 1082 pci irq10 | | | | | | | | | | 40704 cache 26 pci irq11 ==================================++++++++>>>>>> 9245 free fdc0 irq6 daefr sc0 irq1 20669 14385 70 35 0 213 prcfr Calls hits % hits % react 16645 12251 74 32 0 pdwake 38 1 pdpgs Discs sd 38 intrn seeks 1 254 8345 buf xfers 26 blks 1 193 msps ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is there anything I can do to reduce the amount of cpu the kernel is using? With this many network connections, would I gain anything by making the TCBHASHSIZE larger? What about turning off FAILSAFE? Would that make a noticable difference? Also, the ethernet card I'm using is a 100mb 3COM (VX driver). I notice that the man page for the vx driver implies that this card is a poor performer. Is that still true? What card should I get? Thanks! Joe From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 12:25:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05049 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:25:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05032 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:25:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA00512; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:23:38 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711052023.PAA00512@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: >64MB In-Reply-To: <199711050917.EAA07537@trinity.mit.edu> from "Charles M. Hannum" at "Nov 5, 97 04:17:42 am" To: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:23:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: tony@dell.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles M. Hannum said: > > FWIW, the new boot code in NetBSD actually does use the extended BIOS > calls to find more memory (and also reads gzipped kernels). This is > handy on my development machine with 256MB. B-) > > (So, now you not only know it can be done, but you know where to find > an example...) > I don't do boot code (that is other's territory), but I have wondered why the "standard" extended BIOS calls weren't used in FreeBSD also. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 12:31:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05524 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:31:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05505 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:31:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.7/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id VAA13662; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:31:23 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:31:21 +0100 (MET) To: mark@vmunix.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] Organization: KRST X-url: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 05 Nov 1997 21:31:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: Charles Henrich's message of Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:47:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [long discussion about benchmark results in Linux/FreeBSD deleted] > [Tons of boring and meaningless benchmark results deleted] Has it occurred to any of you that your benchmark results are irrelevant unless you run the Linux and FreeBSD benchmark on the *exact* same machine? Only then can we start comparing figures. Even then, you have to have a comparable degree of customization in each OS to be able to draw any conclusions; it doesn't make sense to compare a production FreeBSD installation with a custom kernel and a vanilla RedHat installation with a generic kernel. -- * Finrod (INTJ) * Unix weenie * dag-erli@ifi.uio.no * cellular +47-92835919 * RFC1123: "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 12:41:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06536 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:41:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06518; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA04250; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:38:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:38:36 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: Gopakumar H Pillai cc: fs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book on FreeBSD FileSystem? In-Reply-To: <3460CCE9.E558C8D9@global.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Gopakumar H Pillai wrote: > Hi, > Could anyone tell me about a good book which talks inside out of FreeBSD > 2.2.2 file system or 4.4 BSD file system (I think FreeBSD 2.2.2 follows > 4.4 BSD FS). The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System McKusick, Bostic, Karels, Quarterman Addison Wesley > -- > --Gopu (gopu@global.com) > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 12:46:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06903 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06891 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by srv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA17907 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:46:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:45:57 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: hackers@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gettimeofday() overhead Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Tony Overfield wrote: > >On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > >Unfortunately, this requires access to /dev/kmem, and thus your process > >must be running as root. IMHO this isn't really an acceptable tradeoff > >unless the application already requires it. > > What about a /dev/timeofday device that allowed you to read-only map > only the appropriate clock bits (or equiv.)? > This sounds like a good idea. Quite a few programs need event-based timestamps, and if gettimeofday() in the standard library could access /dev/timeofday without a user-kernel context switch, this would seem to be a performance enhancement to the system. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 12:47:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06953 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06944 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:47:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06688; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:46:27 -0700 (MST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA20675; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:46:24 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:46:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711052046.NAA20675@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield), jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: >64MB In-Reply-To: <199711051858.LAA14121@usr02.primenet.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19971105020626.006da974@bugs.us.dell.com> <199711051858.LAA14121@usr02.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > The bootloader already makes the "64 MB limited" BIOS call and sends > > this value to the kernel, but for some strange reason, the kernel > > tosses that value away in favor of the sometimes bogus CMOS value. > > Using this BIOS call's result instead of tossing it would resolve > > my complaint about the CMOS groping. Uhh, no. From i386/i386/machdep.c: /* * Warn if the official BIOS interface disagrees with the RTC * interface used above about the amount of base memory or the * amount of extended memory. Prefer the BIOS value for the base * memory..... So, we're definitely preferring the BIOS's value for the case of extended memory. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 14:06:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12540 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:06:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12531 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:06:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA08809; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:06:17 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711052206.RAA08809@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] In-Reply-To: from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag=2DErling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= at "Nov 5, 97 09:31:19 pm" To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:06:17 -0500 (EST) Cc: mark@vmunix.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav said: > > [long discussion about benchmark results in Linux/FreeBSD deleted] > > [Tons of boring and meaningless benchmark results deleted] > > Has it occurred to any of you that your benchmark results are > irrelevant unless you run the Linux and FreeBSD benchmark on the > *exact* same machine? Only then can we start comparing figures. Even > then, you have to have a comparable degree of customization in each OS > to be able to draw any conclusions; it doesn't make sense to compare a > production FreeBSD installation with a custom kernel and a vanilla > RedHat installation with a generic kernel. > Most of the discussion is associated with the differences in perf between FreeBSD kernels. Frankly, I don't think that the FreeBSD-current and RH results show that much difference to even be concerned about. Microbenchmarks aren't that valuable for real world performance comparisons anyway. Since kernel developers on the mailing list have been a party to the discussions, I don't see a problem. I don't agree with gloating about the numbers, but they are odd. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 14:08:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12609 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:08:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12603 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:08:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA08814; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:07:54 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711052207.RAA08814@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 'sys' is consuming %50 of cpu In-Reply-To: <199711052011.MAA27359@monk.via.net> from Joe McGuckin at "Nov 5, 97 12:11:32 pm" To: joe@via.net (Joe McGuckin) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:07:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe McGuckin said: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Is there anything I can do to reduce the amount of cpu the kernel is using? > With this many network connections, would I gain anything by making the TCBHASHSIZE > larger? > Not directly answering your question, but your machine is paging a bit. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 14:20:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13808 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:20:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from wall.jhs.no_domain (vector.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13794 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:20:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhs@freebsd.org) Received: (from jhs@localhost) by flip.jhs.no_domain (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00778; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:45:43 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:45:43 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711031945.UAA00778@flip.jhs.no_domain> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: bad144 & ide format From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Email: Home: X-Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany X-Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ (Includes PGP Key) X-Tel: Home: +49.89.268616 X-Fax: Home: +49.89.2608126 X-Data: Home: +49.89.26023276 X-Company: Vector Systems Ltd, Unix & Internet Consultants. X-Mailer: EXMH 1.6.9 on FreeBSD (Unix) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Help ! :-) I've config'd & used loads of SCSI drives on FreeBSD systems, but I never seem to be able to correctly add IDE drives to pre-built systems ... I have a 1 gig (on a modern ASUS mboard that supports big discs), & 2 * 200M & a 40M on other boxes, Sod's law dictates the only one that works trouble free with my FreeBSD boxes is the 40M :-( (maybe 'cos its so small I rarely use it ( it just serves as /usr/share on a sacrificial crash host )). I'm definitely doing something wrong, question is what ? all I want to do is format them, run a bad144 on them to fix the bad blocks, disklabel & newfs & add them to existing systems. No big deal, been doing this stuff for years, even used to regularly run bad144 on my st506 on a BSD 4.2 NSC32016, & have been swapping BSD discs around on intel & nsc BSDs for years ... _But_ I must have a blind spot on IDE, the bad144 is going wrong (where I marked **** in typical log below) & I'd be grateful to anyone who spots what I'm doing wrong. I did look at the handbook first, but to no avail. PS I've been using 2.2.2 based systems, but have looked on FreeBSD current source & cvs & there's no format.8 despite man bad144 pointing to it, only format 8 I can see is in my NetBSD current tree: src/share/man/man8/man8.hp300/format.8 src/share/man/man8/man8.vax/format.8 PS please ensure a cc: jhs@freebsd.org as I'm only on current@, not hackers@. ========== Log Under AMI Bios: Set to IDE Type 47: Cyl=1366, Heads=8, Sec=38, 203MB. format, interleave, media check, all with Mark_Bad_Tracks=No Boot FreeBSD dmesg: wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): wd0: 203MB (415872 sectors), 684 cyls, 16 heads, 38 S/T, 512 B/S This probe result is suprising because 1366/2=683 bad144 /dev/rwd0 Bad pack magic number (pack is unlabeled) bad144 -v -s -c /dev/rwd0 Bad pack magic number (pack is unlabeled) vi disktab: c_wd0|Conner_210: \ :dt=ST506:ty=winchester:nt#16:nc#684:ns#38:su#415872: \ :pa#415872: :oa#0: :ta=4.2BSD: :fa#1024: :ba#8192: \ :pc#415872: :oc#0: :tc=unused: disklabel -w -r wd0 c_wd0 bad144 -v -s -c /dev/rwd0 runs OK (takes a while) then come errors bad144 /dev/rwd0 cyl: 684, tracks: 16, secs: 38, sec/cyl: 608, start: 0, end: 415708 415264 of 415708 blocks ( 99%) bad block information at sector 415834 in /dev/rwd0: cartridge serial number: 1391109348(10) bt_flag=c598(16)? sn=2148934, cn=3523, tn=180, sn=110 bad144: /dev/rwd0: bad flag in bad-sector table bad144: /dev/rwd0: bad magic number bad144: cyl/trk/sect out of range in existing entry: sn=2148934, cn=3523, tn=180, sn=110 bad144: cyl/trk/sect out of range in existing entry: sn=34813762, cn=57244, tn=243, sn=176 ***** + lots more errors ******************************************** Create a new entry: vi disktab: c_wd00|Conner_210: \ :dt=ST506:ty=winchester:nt#16:nc#683:ns#38:su#415264: \ :pa#415264: :oa#0: :ta=4.2BSD: :fa#1024: :ba#8192: \ :pc#415264: :oc#0: :tc=unused: dc 16 38 683 * * p 415264 16 38 684 * * p 415872 disklabel -w -r wd0 c_wd00 open partition would move or shrink halt kernel -s open partition would move or shrink Need to zap the label, so try with more cylinders, maybe CT mag was wrong, & FreeBSD probe is correct in suggesting 2 more cylinders of 8 heads available Bios: Set to Type 47: Cyl=1368, Heads=8, Sec=38, 203MB format & interleave Mark_Bad_Tracks=Yes; media analysis dmesg: 203MB (415872 sectors), 684 cyls, 16 heads, 38 S/T, 512 B/S disklabel -w -r wd0 c_wd0 chris /kernel: wd0: invalid primary partition table: no magic bad144 -v -s -c /dev/rwd0 415264 of 415708 blocks ( 99%) bad block information at sector 415834 in /dev/rwd0: cartridge serial number: 1840700269(10) bt_flag=db6d(16)? sn=17083423, cn=28086, tn=182, sn=219 bad144: /dev/rwd0: bad flag in bad-sector table bad144: /dev/rwd0: bad magic number bad144: cyl/trk/sect out of range in existing entry: sn=17083423, cn=28086, tn=182, sn=219 bad144: cyl/trk/sect out of range in existing entry: sn=34157508, cn=56173, tn=109, sn=182 bad144: cyl/trk/sect out of range in existing entry: sn=28469519, cn=46811, tn=219, sn=109 ..... + lots more errors ..... ========== PPS I've not tried formatting IDEs on the ASUS board, 'cos it's not an AMI BIOS & has no support for IDE format in EPROM, so Ive been using the older pre LBA era AMI BIOSes on the Gigabyte & another non ASUS old mboard, but although that could explain other LBA problems with the 1Gig drive, there's no reason the 200M IDEs shouldn't just format & bad144 cleanly ... if only I knew the trick ? The strange thing is, despite bad144 producing these error messages, I can newfs a 200M file system & write & read check data to the FS without consolke errors, but I must be walking a tightrope, in light of the bad144 error report. Julian -- Julian H. Stacey Home http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Tel. +49 89 268616 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 14:30:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14489 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:30:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14476 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:30:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28548; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:30:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd028533; Wed Nov 5 15:30:20 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09977; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:30:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711052230.PAA09977@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: >64MB To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:30:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, tony@dell.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711052046.NAA20675@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 5, 97 01:46:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Terry Lambert writes: [ ... Something actually written by Tony Overfield ... ] > Uhh, no. From i386/i386/machdep.c: Please watch attributions! -- Terry From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 15:04:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16577 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16563 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:04:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.1/nospam) with UUCP id AAA23000 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:04:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-2.12/nospam) id AAA24550; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:00:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971106000024.26598@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:00:24 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic -- advise needed References: <19971105190225.29498@burka.carrier.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <19971105190225.29498@burka.carrier.kiev.ua>; from Alexander Litvin on Wed, Nov 05, 1997 at 07:02:25PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3780 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Alexander Litvin: > options NQNFS #Enable NQNFS lease checking kernel bloat, get this out. > options PROCFS #Process filesystem > options NSWAPDEV=4 Not really needed, base kernel handles about 20 swap devices. > device sd0 #SCSI disks > device sd1 #SCSI disks > device sd2 #SCSI disks The last two are useless. Either put only "sd0" or use "wired-down" devices like this: # NCR0: ibm + ibm + tandberg disk sd0 at scbus0 target 0 unit 0 disk sd1 at scbus0 target 1 disk sd2 at scbus0 target 2 disk sd3 at scbus0 target 3 tape st1 at scbus0 target 4 # NCR1: conner + micropolis + CD + HP DAT disk sd10 at scbus1 target 0 disk sd11 at scbus1 target 1 disk sd12 at scbus1 target 2 disk sd13 at scbus1 target 3 tape st0 at scbus1 target 5 device cd0 at scbus1 target 6 > pseudo-device pty 16 #Pseudo ttys - can go as high as 256 You probably want to make this higher. > options BOUNCE_BUFFERS Destroy that. Why the heck are you using bounce buffers on a 128 MB/PCI machine without an ISA adapter to worry about ? -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #46: Sun Nov 2 16:51:01 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 15:21:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17617 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:21:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17604 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA13224; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:21:14 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA17798; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:01:03 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971106000102.TU05027@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:01:02 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Subject: Re: Network card manuals References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Niall Smart on Nov 5, 1997 17:09:09 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Niall Smart wrote: > I'm trying to learn device driver programming, and thought > I'd start by examining some of FreeBSD's, but its all greek without some > background docs. I've tried Intel, 3com and SMC's web sites but all I > found were terse datasheets that don't help much. 3Com's documentation shipping department is better than their chip design department. :-) Alas, their offer to send you programming manuals is well hidden somewhere, you gotta go through to what they call `3Com Facts' or such, some sort of a half-automated fax server. You can order the order fax (:-) on the Web server, but have to fill it in manually, and fax it back. They FedEx the manual then, it took less than a week to get it here in Europe. The manual ain't too bad. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 15:22:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17697 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:22:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17687 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA13227; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:22:18 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA17821; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:08:15 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971106000814.LR12891@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:08:14 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: joe@via.net (Joe McGuckin) Subject: Re: 'sys' is consuming %50 of cpu References: <199711052011.MAA27359@monk.via.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711052011.MAA27359@monk.via.net>; from Joe McGuckin on Nov 5, 1997 12:11:32 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joe McGuckin wrote: > What about turning off FAILSAFE? Would that make a noticable difference? Certainly not. AFAIK, it's by now still only the NCR driver that does use this option (and disables tagged command queuing). > Also, the ethernet card I'm using is a 100mb 3COM (VX driver). I notice that > the man page for the vx driver implies that this card is a poor performer. > Is that still true? Yep, that's most likely the reason. These cards do just PIO only (with our driver -- but even the 3Com manual admits that the cost of setting up a busmaster DMA transfer is often too high to be justified by the gain). > What card should I get? Most people will certainly recommend a card with a DEC chip (many vendors build it), or an Intel Etherexpress 100/B. I haven't used the latter myself, but i think wcarchive stands for itself. ;) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 16:01:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20586 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:01:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20563 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:01:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13279; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd013276; Wed Nov 5 23:54:05 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:52:21 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Dag-Erling Coidan Sm?rgrav cc: mark@vmunix.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk yes of course, but: what we are looking at is the differences, in order to try work out the dependencies.. note that cache size seems to be important, and so does memory speed. slower machines are often outperforming newer ones. this is not a benchmark per-se. but rather, a tool to try work out the average speeds of these function of various OSs to see if they should be included for a particular function under SAMBA. What is intersting that in doing this we discovered these massive dicrepancies. Which I thought might be interesting.. On 5 Nov 1997, Dag-Erling Coidan Sm?rgrav wrote: > > [long discussion about benchmark results in Linux/FreeBSD deleted] > > [Tons of boring and meaningless benchmark results deleted] > > Has it occurred to any of you that your benchmark results are > irrelevant unless you run the Linux and FreeBSD benchmark on the > *exact* same machine? Only then can we start comparing figures. Even > then, you have to have a comparable degree of customization in each OS > to be able to draw any conclusions; it doesn't make sense to compare a > production FreeBSD installation with a custom kernel and a vanilla > RedHat installation with a generic kernel. > > -- > * Finrod (INTJ) * Unix weenie * dag-erli@ifi.uio.no * cellular +47-92835919 * > RFC1123: "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 16:05:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20842 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:05:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20833 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:05:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.7/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id BAA00192 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:05:47 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:05:47 +0100 (MET) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] References: <199711052206.RAA08809@dyson.iquest.net> Organization: KRST X-url: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 06 Nov 1997 01:05:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: "John S. Dyson"'s message of Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:06:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "John S. Dyson" writes: > Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav said: > > > [long discussion about benchmark results in Linux/FreeBSD deleted] > > > [Tons of boring and meaningless benchmark results deleted] > > Has it occurred to any of you that your benchmark results are > > irrelevant unless you run the Linux and FreeBSD benchmark on the > Most of the discussion is associated with the differences in perf between > FreeBSD kernels. Frankly, I don't think that the FreeBSD-current and My apologies. I read some of the thread and seemed to understand that people were gloating over the fact that Linux was somewhat slower than FreeBSD, although the results had been gathered by different people on different machines. -- * Finrod (INTJ) * Unix weenie * dag-erli@ifi.uio.no * cellular +47-92835919 * RFC1123: "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 16:38:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22952 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:38:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from roguetrader.com (brandon@cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22947; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:38:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandon@roguetrader.com) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by roguetrader.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA07481; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:38:38 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:38:37 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, I have a fresh/cleanly installed 2.2.5-R server. I recompiled the kernel to include the atalk option, I installed the netatalk package. All I want to do is to have this server be a unix->mac print spooler. I've dug through http files EVERYWHERE--I have read a ton of linux files on doing this--nothing has helped me with my current problem! I believe I have the whole thing 99% configured correctly--but when I print NOTHING HAPPENS. Eventually the job is returned to me with some vague mention of having an error. Watching the spool directory while its trying to print shows an err file which just has multiple lines of: atp_rresp: Operation timed out Now, to just give background info... the printer I'm trying to print to shows up via nbplkup as: LaserWriter Pro 630:LaserWriter 500.74:128 papstatus errors: % papstatus -p "LaserWriter Pro 630" atp_rresp: Operation timed out syslog isn't any more informative.. lpd-errs just has the same atp_rresp errors in addition to a 'Can't Connect!' message. My /etc/printcap entry: lwpro|lp|PostScript LaserWriter:\ :sh:\ :sd=/var/spool/lpd/lwpro:\ :lp=/dev/lpd/lwpro:\ :lf=/var/log/lpd-errs:\ :pw#80:\ :if=/usr/local/share/filters/ifpap: All directories, files, filters are setup correctly, and have the correct perms. WHY am I having this timeout error? I can see other nodes on the appletalk network--and infact other macs can see my system as a 'printer' in their Chooser (but printing doesn't work--I'm assuming because I havn't set it up to receive as a printer--I should just kill papd). Anyway, can ANYBODY help me? I've about exhausted my resources here... -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 17:29:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26030 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:29:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26025 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:29:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00482; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:54:30 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711060124.LAA00482@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Network card manuals In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:09:09 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 11:54:30 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm wondering if anyone knows of any network card manufacturers who > publish freely available detailed manuals on their cards for device driver > programmers. I'm trying to learn device driver programming, and thought > I'd start by examining some of FreeBSD's, but its all greek without some > background docs. I've tried Intel, 3com and SMC's web sites but all I > found were terse datasheets that don't help much. The datasheet on the NS8390 (natsemi) and related documents should help. www.natsemi.com, developer's section. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 17:47:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27619 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:47:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27602 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:47:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (max7-201.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.201]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10668 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:47:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA06577 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:31:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711060131.TAA06577@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Can a PII & a P6 coexist ??? In-reply-to: Message from S ren Schmidt of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 19:26:01 +0100." <199711051826.TAA04134@sos.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 19:31:08 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id RAA27611 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In reply to Kenny Hanson who wrote: > > I've never heard of those kinds of adapters... Intel has a pretty tight > > lock on Slot 1 technology (i.e. against the law to reverse engineer) > > so I can't imagine that anybody > > would be able to engineer a socket8 to slot1 adapter. Of course, I > > could be wrong :-) > > Go look at www.tyan.com & www.asus.com, and you will see that they > exist, I've even had one in my hand (don't know what make it was though) Maybe when we say, "socket8 to slot1 adapter" we should say, "a slot1 board with a socket8 for your PPro chip". Otherwise it appears this discussion might be about something that turns a socket8 into a slot1 so you could stick a P-II on a PPro MB. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 18:11:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00146 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00134 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:11:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xTHJS-00012i-00; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:04:50 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:04:35 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Joerg Wunsch cc: hackers@freebsd.org, Joe McGuckin Subject: Re: 'sys' is consuming %50 of cpu In-Reply-To: <19971106000814.LR12891@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > > What card should I get? > > Most people will certainly recommend a card with a DEC chip (many > vendors build it), or an Intel Etherexpress 100/B. I haven't used the > latter myself, but i think wcarchive stands for itself. ;) The Intel Pro 100/B is great. Of the 100mbs cards supported by FreeBSD, it uses the least CPU. There some studies done for other os'es on the web that show this as well. > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > > Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 18:40:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01984 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:40:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01978; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:40:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18078; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd018074; Thu Nov 6 02:39:23 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:37:38 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk did you read the 2.2.5 errata? On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > Ok, I have a fresh/cleanly installed 2.2.5-R server. I recompiled the > kernel to include the atalk option, I installed the netatalk package. All > I want to do is to have this server be a unix->mac print spooler. I've > dug through http files EVERYWHERE--I have read a ton of linux files on [...] > Anyway, can ANYBODY help me? I've about exhausted my resources here... > > -Brandon Gillespie > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 19:38:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07192 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07171 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:38:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id UAA17108; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:36:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA23737; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:42:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:42:13 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Joe McGuckin cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 'sys' is consuming %50 of cpu In-Reply-To: <199711052011.MAA27359@monk.via.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Joe McGuckin wrote: > I've got a web server that was just upgraded to a 300Mhz Pentium II. > > Now the load average is down to a more manageable '20'. What web server are you running on it? What version of FreeBSD are you using? If 2.2-stable, from exactly what date? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 2 users Load 18.18 12.81 13.37 Wed Nov 5 11:53 > > Mem:KB 3112 1108 464516 1316 41264 VN PAGER SWAP PAGER > 54716 1976 3927692 8464 Free in out in out > Act 111568 1108 466136 1316 49780 count 86 > All 247736 1980 3942260 8556 pages 163 358 > 75 3420 3024 485 5417 1359 198 346 59600 cow Interrupts > Proc:r p d s w Csw Trp Sys Int Sof Flt 49884 zfod 1336 total > 64.5%Sys 17.3%Intr 16.44 509 4984 1336 1.99 374 59180 wire 092 clk0 irq0 > 139168 act 38 rtc0 irq8 > 68.0%Sys 16.4%Intr 14.=========+++++++++>>>>>>> 2096 inact 1082 pci irq10 IRQ10 is your NIC I assume? > Is there anything I can do to reduce the amount of cpu the kernel is using? > With this many network connections, would I gain anything by making the TCBHASHSIZE > larger? You could give it a try. > > What about turning off FAILSAFE? Would that make a noticable difference? No. > > Also, the ethernet card I'm using is a 100mb 3COM (VX driver). I notice that > the man page for the vx driver implies that this card is a poor performer. > Is that still true? What card should I get? As others have said, definitely try upgrading this. DEC chipsets are OK, but some people stay away from them because there are so many different vendors of cards using it and so many chip versions that it can be a pain. Intel EtherExpress Pro 100/B is my preferred choice, although recently they have started becoming a minor pain as well with changes in chips (especially PHY chips). What sort of network traffic are you pushing in terms of bytes/sec and packets/sec? From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 19:54:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11260 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:54:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11251; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:54:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA04402; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:54:41 -0800 (PST) To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:38:37 MST." Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 19:54:41 -0800 Message-ID: <4398.878788481@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ok, I have a fresh/cleanly installed 2.2.5-R server. I recompiled the > kernel to include the atalk option, I installed the netatalk package. All > I want to do is to have this server be a unix->mac print spooler. I've > dug through http files EVERYWHERE--I have read a ton of linux files on And you read the 2.2.5 ERRATA as I've been practically begging everyone to do, right? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 20:24:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13895 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:24:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13890; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:24:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfieber@indiana.edu) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20322; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:23:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:23:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Julian Elischer cc: Brandon Gillespie , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > did you read the 2.2.5 errata? Could someone make the patch referenced in the errata world readable so that ftp users could download it? Incidentally, I installed 2.2.5 last week and netatalk *appears* to be working fine, though I only use it occasionally for printing. -john From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 20:39:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA14957 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:39:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (gena@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14950 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:39:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gena@shell3.ba.best.com) Received: (from gena@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA14419 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:39:22 -0800 (PST) From: Gennadiy Gulchin Message-Id: <199711060439.UAA14419@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: CD burning To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:39:22 -0800 (PST) Organization: MCCP dot com X-Class: Fast Reply-to: gena@MCCP.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have Philips CDD 2600 and it seems I can not burn any CDs, is there any kind of software/manpages how to burn CDs under FreeBSD 2.2.5 TIA -- Gena From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 21:01:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16378 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:01:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from marlin.exis.net (root@marlin.exis.net [205.252.72.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16373; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stefan@exis.net) Received: from sailfish.exis.net (sailfish.exis.net [205.252.72.104]) by marlin.exis.net (8.8.4/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA16109; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:01:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:57:12 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Molnar To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I did noticed when I compiled neta in the kernel I recived an error durring the neta portion of ther kernel, but it was not sever to about the kernal building process, and since I am not running netta yet because I have not yet justified buying a ethernet card for a IISi so I am not sure ifI could repeat this effect that you are having. Stefan > Ok, I have a fresh/cleanly installed 2.2.5-R server. I recompiled the > kernel to include the atalk option, I installed the netatalk package. All > I want to do is to have this server be a unix->mac print spooler. I've > dug through http files EVERYWHERE--I have read a ton of linux files on > doing this--nothing has helped me with my current problem! I believe I > have the whole thing 99% configured correctly--but when I print NOTHING > HAPPENS. Eventually the job is returned to me with some vague mention of > having an error. Watching the spool directory while its trying to print > shows an err file which just has multiple lines of: > > atp_rresp: Operation timed out > > Now, to just give background info... the printer I'm trying to print to > shows up via nbplkup as: > > LaserWriter Pro 630:LaserWriter 500.74:128 > > papstatus errors: > > % papstatus -p "LaserWriter Pro 630" > atp_rresp: Operation timed out > > syslog isn't any more informative.. lpd-errs just has the same atp_rresp > errors in addition to a 'Can't Connect!' message. > > My /etc/printcap entry: > > lwpro|lp|PostScript LaserWriter:\ > :sh:\ > :sd=/var/spool/lpd/lwpro:\ > :lp=/dev/lpd/lwpro:\ > :lf=/var/log/lpd-errs:\ > :pw#80:\ > :if=/usr/local/share/filters/ifpap: > > All directories, files, filters are setup correctly, and have the correct > perms. > > WHY am I having this timeout error? I can see other nodes on the > appletalk network--and infact other macs can see my system as a 'printer' > in their Chooser (but printing doesn't work--I'm assuming because I havn't > set it up to receive as a printer--I should just kill papd). > > Anyway, can ANYBODY help me? I've about exhausted my resources here... > > -Brandon Gillespie > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 21:30:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17838 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:30:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17831; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21696; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd021694; Thu Nov 6 05:27:58 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:26:13 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: John Fieber cc: Brandon Gillespie , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, John Fieber wrote: > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > did you read the 2.2.5 errata? > > Could someone make the patch referenced in the errata world > readable so that ftp users could download it? duh.. jordan? <8-* it's also (was anyway) at: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/atalk.diff.2.2 > > Incidentally, I installed 2.2.5 last week and netatalk *appears* > to be working fine, though I only use it occasionally for > printing. > > -john > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 21:34:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18144 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:34:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from nirvana.genesyslab.com (nirvana.genesyslab.com [204.94.142.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18133 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:34:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dk@dao.genesyslab.com) Received: from dao.genesyslab.com (Dao.genesyslab.com [204.94.142.146]) by nirvana.genesyslab.com (Guinness/Extra Stout) with ESMTP id VAA25230; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:34:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dk@localhost) by dao.genesyslab.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA00369; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:34:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971105213400.16235@genesyslab.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:34:00 -0800 From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk =?KOI8-R?B?5M3J1NLJyiDrz8jNwc7Ayw==?= To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: netapp NFS server crash by FreeBSD client [w/patch] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=DocE+STaALJfprDB X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e X-OS-of-the-Day: FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE X-Home-URL: http://zen.genesyslab.com/~dk/ X-Site-of-the-Day: http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9710/20/microsoft_a/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii this is only relevant to those using NetApp NFS file servers. background: there are 2 versions of NFS in town, v2 and v3. In v3, one of things introduced was ability to read names of files in directory with stat(2)ing them at the same time; the procedure name is readdirplus. It can be used to speed up programs like ls(1). Apparently, NFS code in FreeBSD 2.2 (derived from 4.4BSD code, so perhaps this applies to all of modern BSD systems here) allow client to specify this in mount options without using NFS v3. This meaningless set of options panics NetApp file server. the following simple patch (attached) for /usr/src/sys/nfs/nfs_bio.c fixes this problem. --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=d --- nfs_bio.c.ok Wed Nov 5 20:11:17 1997 +++ nfs_bio.c Wed Nov 5 20:14:06 1997 @@ -1031,6 +1031,8 @@ case VDIR: nfsstats.readdir_bios++; uiop->uio_offset = ((u_quad_t)bp->b_lblkno) * NFS_DIRBLKSIZ; + if (!(nmp->nm_flag & NFSMNT_NFSV3)) + nmp->nm_flag &= ~NFSMNT_RDIRPLUS; /* dk@farm.org */ if (nmp->nm_flag & NFSMNT_RDIRPLUS) { error = nfs_readdirplusrpc(vp, uiop, cr); if (error == NFSERR_NOTSUPP) --DocE+STaALJfprDB-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 5 23:45:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA28209 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:45:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from cs4.cs.ait.ac.th (root@cs4.cs.ait.ac.th [192.41.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28199 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:45:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from a96456@cs.ait.ac.th) Received: from bazooka.cs.ait.ac.th (a96456@bazooka.cs.ait.ac.th [192.41.170.2]) by cs4.cs.ait.ac.th (8.6.12/) with ESMTP id OAA27688 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:33:49 +0700 Received: from localhost (a96456@localhost) by bazooka.cs.ait.ac.th (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA02889 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:33:46 +0700 (GMT) X-Authentication-Warning: bazooka.cs.ait.ac.th: a96456 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:33:45 +0700 (GMT) From: Sunthiti Patchararungruang To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Quantum size? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dear Everybody, I would like to know the quantum size of FreeBSD2.2.2. Best Regards, Sunthiti Patchararungruang From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 00:02:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA29109 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:02:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (root@gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com [207.113.159.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA29104 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gdonl@tsc.tdk.com) Received: from sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (root@sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.191]) by gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA13891; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.194]) by sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA17025; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:02:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12509; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:02:04 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199711060802.AAA12509@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:02:03 -0800 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert "Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections?" (Nov 5, 7:23pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Terry Lambert , adrian@virginia.edu Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 5, 7:23pm, Terry Lambert wrote: } Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? } It was the reason I learned how to login, how to cd, how to ls, } when to use "./" when a program wasn't in my path. Later, it } was the reason I learned how to use "stty" to restor the terminal } after a game crashed, and even introduced me to csh's "!!" and "^" } syntax. I learned the vi navigation keys by playing rogue ;-) --- Truck From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 00:23:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA00262 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA00257 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:23:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA17478; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:22:45 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA20362; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:20:22 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971106092022.RC40697@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:20:22 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: gena@MCCP.com Subject: Re: CD burning References: <199711060439.UAA14419@shell3.ba.best.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711060439.UAA14419@shell3.ba.best.com>; from Gennadiy Gulchin on Nov 5, 1997 20:39:22 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Gennadiy Gulchin wrote: > I have Philips CDD 2600 and it seems I can not burn any CDs, > is there any kind of software/manpages how to burn CDs under FreeBSD 2.2.5 Loads of software. First, there's native kernel support that is supposed to work in 2.2.5. See under /usr/share/examples/worm, and see the LINT config file. Then, there's Jean-Marc Zucchoni's cdwrite port. It does everything in userland. Finally, Jean-Marc yesterday committed a port Jörg Schilling's cdrecord software yesterday, which is an operating-system independant effort supporting quite a number of CD-R drives. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 00:52:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA01782 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from Try-Again.Adelman.COM (Try-Again.Adelman.COM [198.137.202.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01775 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:52:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from KASHTAN@YOYODYNE.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:51:34 -0800 (PST) From: "David L. Kashtan" Subject: GDB has trouble debugging programs that use signals under FreeBSD 2.2.2 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <878806294.629408.KASHTAN@YOYODYNE.COM> Mail-System-Version: Postal-Address: 410 Camino Al Barranco; La Selva Beach, CA 95076 Phone: (408) 685-3457 (home) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a fairly simple program that is not totally debuggable under gdb and FreeBSD 2.2.2 -- the initial problem seems to be that the constant SIGTRAMP_START needs to be 0xefbfdfc0 rather than 0xfdbfdfc0 and SIGTRAMP_END needs to be 0xefbfe000 rather than 0xfdbfe000 This, at least made things better. The remaining problem is that when an SIGALRM signal fires gdb is not capable of correctly executing a "next" command -- it gives the signal to the child and stops right back where it started, announcing that the child got a BPT/TRAP. Before I spend I whole lot of time debugging this, I was wondering if anybody else had seen/dealt-with this problem. Surely, people have tried to debug programs that use timer signals? Here is a simple program to exercise the problem: #include #include #include int XXX = 0; static void Alarm_Handler(int Sig) { XXX++; printf("SIGALRM #%d\n", XXX); } void setup(void) { struct itimerval it; signal(SIGALRM, Alarm_Handler); it.it_interval.tv_sec = 1; it.it_interval.tv_usec = 10000; it.it_value.tv_sec = 1; it.it_value.tv_usec = 10000; if (setitimer(0, &it, 0) < 0) printf("setitimer"); } static void foo(void){} int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { static int YYY = 0; setup(); while(1) { foo(); YYY++; } } From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 01:04:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02542 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:04:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02510 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199711060904.BAA02510@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA097977052; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:04:12 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: the kernel API... To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:04:12 +1100 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <345E7F61.52BFA1D7@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Nov 3, 97 05:50:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In some mail from Julian Elischer, sie said: > > Darren Reed wrote: > > > > Now I guess the question is, which API or include file is right ? > > If you look at these two files, you will discover that > /usr/include/machine is derived on 386 based BSD from > /usr/src/i86/include > > looking in that directory you will see that spl.h is n longer present. > therefore you have a left-over file.. > these were felt to be machine independent defines and moved elsewhere. > (i.e. systm.h) > > I hope that solves the mystery :) > > julian (who was caught by surprise by the move a little while ago) sigh...well, the code which is responsible for including spl.h and systm.h is this: #if defined(__FreeBSD__) && defined(KERNEL) # include #endif I guess now it will look like this: #if defined(__FreeBSD__) && defined(KERNEL) # if __FreeBSD__ < 3 # include # endif #endif Darren From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 02:04:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA04905 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:04:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA04868 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:03:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [143.166.12.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA05636; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:01:32 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971106040103.006ede20@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 04:01:03 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: >64MB Cc: jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711051858.LAA14121@usr02.primenet.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19971105020626.006da974@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> The bootloader already makes the "64 MB limited" BIOS call and sends >> this value to the kernel, but for some strange reason, the kernel >> tosses that value away in favor of the sometimes bogus CMOS value. >> Using this BIOS call's result instead of tossing it would resolve >> my complaint about the CMOS groping. >At 06:58 PM 11/5/97 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >The problem with this approach is "keyhole memory allocations" for >soft IDE drive tables and APM BIOS data that can't be overwritten. >This is a common practice among some PC manufacturers (who will >remain nameless). > >At least the "base memory" in the CMOS must be examined to determine >memory which can not be given over to the kernel for it to scribble on. Well, I was obviously talking about extended memory, not base memory, but I'll bite on this sucker bait anyway... ;-) I claim your argument is wrong. The INT 12h BIOS call will (and must) always reflect any "keyhole allocations". The RTC value will *not* reflect them. The BIOS call provides precisely the correct value, unless you happen to think the kernel should steal the memory back from the BIOS, which is, of course, extremely risky. My brief inspection of this code reveals (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the RTC base memory value is never even used (if the bootloader is recent and working, at least) except to produce benign error messages. If the RTC value is necessary, I sure don't see how. >The kernel loads at 1M, regardless of whether there is memory there >or not. Yes, the bootloader knows how much memory is available, but it fails to make the comparison. >There is no graceful failure mode possible for a failure to >load yourself. How about this message, "Not enough extended memory found! (4 MB needed)"? No, I'm not really arguing for any changes here, the days of 640K systems are long gone, but graceful failure is indeed possible. >Given this, a kernel with VM86() capabilities loaded into however >much memory it takes, starting at 1M, can make VM86() calls to >determine how much memory is there. You yourself note that the CMOS >examination for memory sizing is bogusly used at present ...and that >it occurs *after* the kernel is loaded. Yes, but the bootloader already knows how much memory is there. It knows this before the kernel is loaded. It can make sure there is enough memory before the kernel is loaded. It can and does pass that value to the kernel after it is loaded. The kernel then throws it away and gets the wrong information from the CMOS. >> At *least* the "64 MB limited" BIOS call must be in the bootloader. > >At present, and only because the call historically can't be made by >the kernel in protected mode. That's close to being fixed. It only needs to be in the bootloader if you want to make sure there is enough memory to load the kernel, or if you want to remove the bogus CMOS stuff before the vm86() support is working. Right now, the value obtained from the boot loader is completely extraneous except for the useless error message. Speaking of vm86(), why not just use real-mode? It's easier and much better for compatibility while booting. I do remember your dreams of running SCSI option ROM code in multi-use mode, but that's surely a long way off. The APM init code seems to have a good example of making real-mode BIOS calls from the kernel during initialization. - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 02:04:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA04940 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:04:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA04926 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:04:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [143.166.12.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA05630; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:01:27 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971106033053.006ede20@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 03:30:53 -0600 To: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: >64MB Cc: jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711052046.NAA20675@rocky.mt.sri.com> References: <199711051858.LAA14121@usr02.primenet.com> <3.0.3.32.19971105020626.006da974@bugs.us.dell.com> <199711051858.LAA14121@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tony Overfield writes: >> > The bootloader already makes the "64 MB limited" BIOS call and sends >> > this value to the kernel, but for some strange reason, the kernel >> > tosses that value away in favor of the sometimes bogus CMOS value. >> > Using this BIOS call's result instead of tossing it would resolve >> > my complaint about the CMOS groping. At 01:46 PM 11/5/97 -0700, Nate Williams wrote: >Uhh, no. From i386/i386/machdep.c: > > /* > * Warn if the official BIOS interface disagrees with the RTC > * interface used above about the amount of base memory or the > * amount of extended memory. Prefer the BIOS value for the base > * memory..... > >So, we're definitely preferring the BIOS's value for the case of >extended memory. Sorry, but that's incorrect. If you read the source code and look for bootinfo.bi_extmem, you'll see that it is only used to produce a warning message. In your citation, you inexplicably removed the tail end of the comment which includes, among other things, this text: * ... Prefer the RTC value for extended memory. * Eventually the hackish interface shouldn't even be looked at. */ So the comment and the source code both agree that the BIOS value for extended memory is overwritten by the value pulled from CMOS, the BIOS value is not prefered, which matches my original complaint. - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 02:14:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA05285 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:14:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA05276 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:14:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA10471; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:17:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711061017.CAA10471@implode.root.com> To: Joe McGuckin cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 'sys' is consuming %50 of cpu In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 12:11:32 PST." <199711052011.MAA27359@monk.via.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 02:17:25 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I've got a web server that was just upgraded to a 300Mhz Pentium II. > >Now the load average is down to a more manageable '20'. > >This machine has around 3K tcp connections to it according to netstat. >Here they are listed by type: > >CLOSE_WAIT 5 >LAST_ACK 25 >ESTABLISHED 443 >SYN_RCVD 59 >FIN_WAIT_1 341 >LISTEN 1 >TIME_WAIT 723 >FIN_WAIT_2 1716 >CLOSING 29 > >One thing I've noticed is that vmstat reports that the kernel >is using over 50% of the cpu: ... >Is there anything I can do to reduce the amount of cpu the kernel is using? >With this many network connections, would I gain anything by making the > TCBHASHSIZE >larger? Yes, increasing TCBHASHSIZE would help - I use 2048 on wcarchive. Be sure to keep it a power of two, however. You didn't mention which version of FreeBSD this was with, but there are some general things I can say...first, the suggestion made by others to upgrade the ethernet card to a Intel Pro/100B is a good one. This should trim 10-15% off the CPU time (some from system, some from interrupt). There is, however, a scalability problem in FreeBSD with handling many thousands of connections like you have on your machine. I've been working on this issue on & off for nearly 3 years (I implemented the PCB hashing in FreeBSD more than 2 1/2 years ago), but just started looking at it again recently about a week ago. There are many things to do, and hopefully I'll have some major improvements for this problem in the 3.0 release. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 02:55:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA06897 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA06886 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:55:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA13868; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:54:46 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:54:45 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Kenny Hanson cc: "FreeBSD Hackers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: FW: Can a PII & a P6 coexist ??? In-Reply-To: <91DD7FDA88E4D011BED00000C0DD87E7124C3A@pds-gateway.pdspc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id CAA06893 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Kenny Hanson wrote: > I stand corrected... first of all, like a dork, I mixed up the P6 and > P5. Second, I have > now heard of those kinds of adapters. I think you'd have some timing > issues but it > would be kind of interesting to find out eh? Because of the difference > in cache speeds > I think you'd run into some problems. > > Research! More research before ya open your dang mouth Kenny!!! > > Well, I though they used at least slightly different algorithms to keep the caches coherent? Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kenny Hanson > > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 11:16 AM > > To: FreeBSD Hackers (E-mail) > > Subject: RE: Can a PII & a P6 coexist ??? > > > > I've never heard of those kinds of adapters... Intel has a pretty > > tight lock on Slot 1 > > technology (i.e. against the law to reverse engineer) so I can't > > imagine that anybody > > would be able to engineer a socket8 to slot1 adapter. Of course, I > > could be wrong :-) > > > > I'm not 100% positive on this, but my guesstimate is no dice. Slot 1 > > is completely > > different than Socket 8 and requires a whole different kind of wiring; > > different > > control lines and data lines to the 440LX (AGP Set). You'd have to > > design a whole > > new chipset to handle the different processors. > > > > Kenny Hanson, Senior Research Analyst > > Paragon Development Systems > > Email: khanson@pdspc.com > > Web: http://www.pdspc.com > > Phone: (800) 966-6090 > > Fax: (414) 569-5390 > > > > > > Getting ones hands on a 440LX based MB isn't easy without getting > > thiose dreaded slot 1's as a "bargain". Most vendors (cleverly) > > supplies Socket8->Slot1 adapters so... > > My question is, would a P6 and a PII coexist in a dual CPU Motherboard > > ?? > > > > I know I ask the most stupid questions :) > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > -=-=-=- > > Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD > > Core Team > > Even more code to hack -- will it ever end > > .. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 03:11:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA07827 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:11:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from golem.belabm.by (root@[194.226.122.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07809 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:10:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scaner@belabm.by) Received: from belabm.by (scaner.belabm.by [194.226.122.179]) by golem.belabm.by (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA22467; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:00:25 +0200 Message-ID: <3461A343.7A94E5CE@belabm.by> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 13:00:19 +0200 From: Eugene Vedistchev Reply-To: scaner@belabm.by Organization: Global One in Belarus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Niall Smart CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network card manuals References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, You may check this {http://www-s.ti.com/sc/psheets/spwu013a/spwu013a.pdf} TI manual for programming ethernet/fast ethernet ThunderLAN chip. I also can send to you sources of linux driver, written for boards based on this chipset (Compaq NetFlex-2,3 Nettelligent 10/100 cards, All on-board adapters on latest Compaq hardware) Niall Smart wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm wondering if anyone knows of any network card manufacturers who > publish freely available detailed manuals on their cards for device driver > programmers. I'm trying to learn device driver programming, and thought > I'd start by examining some of FreeBSD's, but its all greek without some > background docs. I've tried Intel, 3com and SMC's web sites but all I > found were terse datasheets that don't help much. > > Intels manuals on the Pentium etc were excellent though :) > > Thanks, > > Niall Smart From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 03:23:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA08314 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:23:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA08295 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id LAA24917 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:11:58 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199711061011.LAA24917@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: procmail problems To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:11:58 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On one of our servers we have replaced "mail" with procmail, mainly to have the possibility of putting mailboxes in user directories instead of having 3000+ files in /var/mail . But for some reason, procmail quite often starts growing until it exhausts the swap space causing itself and a bunch of other processes to get killed. Are there known problem in procmail, and is there any simple alternative for achieving our main goal (putting mailboxes into users' directories instead of /var/mail) ? Thanks Luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 03:46:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA09085 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:46:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (fYN7PnISlYZ7OX8vYbaRKhot06HwkFJb@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA09068 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:46:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from ash3.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.16.31] ([Jn/mBqYcIktv0ShZ390jLx3iuP5KDwSm]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xTQKK-0003Le-00; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:42:20 +0000 Received: from njs3 by ash3.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0xTQJb-00023X-00; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:41:35 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:41:35 +0000 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert "Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections?" (Nov 5, 7:23pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Terry Lambert , adrian@virginia.edu Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 5, 7:23pm, Terry Lambert wrote: } Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? > > I have to say that my introduction to UNIX was via the games. [snip] > If you kill the games, you damage "recruitment". With all respect, studies show that only 1/100000 people install FreeBSD to play text mode games. Niall From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 03:48:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA09236 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:48:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA09209 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:48:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA06406; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:46:59 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711061146.MAA06406@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: procmail problems In-Reply-To: <199711061011.LAA24917@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from Luigi Rizzo at "Nov 6, 97 11:11:58 am" To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:46:59 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.dk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Luigi Rizzo who wrote: > On one of our servers we have replaced "mail" with procmail, mainly to > have the possibility of putting mailboxes in user directories instead > of having 3000+ files in /var/mail . But for some reason, procmail > quite often starts growing until it exhausts the swap space causing > itself and a bunch of other processes to get killed. > > Are there known problem in procmail, and is there any simple > alternative for achieving our main goal (putting mailboxes into users' > directories instead of /var/mail) ? Modify sendmail.cf to put the mail in the users home, one of my clients do just that, works fine... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 04:34:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA10727 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:34:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA10722 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA07053; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:32:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:32:07 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: Niall Smart cc: Terry Lambert , adrian@virginia.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Niall Smart wrote: > On Nov 5, 7:23pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > } Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? > > > > I have to say that my introduction to UNIX was via the games. > > [snip] > > > If you kill the games, you damage "recruitment". > > With all respect, studies show that only 1/100000 people install FreeBSD > to play text mode games. Umm, I don't see the smiley. Just what study are you referring to? I wasn't aware any such had ever been done ... > > Niall > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 04:38:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA10875 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:38:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from reb2.ivev.bau.tu-bs.de (reb2.ivev.bau.tu-bs.de [134.169.17.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA10865 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:37:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jochen@reb2.ivev.bau.tu-bs.de) Received: (from jochen@localhost) by reb2.ivev.bau.tu-bs.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01200 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:39:11 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199711061239.NAA01200@reb2.ivev.bau.tu-bs.de> Subject: Again: LKM and interrupts To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (freebsd-hackers) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:39:11 +0100 (CET) Reply-To: J.Bredemeyer@tu-bs.de From: Jochen Bredemeyer X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, is there a method to use an ISA interrupt in a loadable kernel module? I have a working device driver for my transputer link adapter ISA card which also handles hardware interrupts, but this feature is only available if I compile my module into the kernel. Is it possible to call one ore more functions from "isa.c" ( i.e. config_isadev(), update_intr_masks(), register_intr) within the driver load routine which are usually used when the systems starts up? Unfortunately I don't know their correct parameters - especially those which concern the Interrupt mask that is frequently mentioned in "isa.c". I found similiar questions in the "freebsd-hackers" mailing list archive with the subjects "LKM driver question / patch", "Handling hardware interrupts in lkm device drivers", "LKM: how to fiddle in interrupt routine ptrs ?", but no real answers were given. Has anyone solved the problem yet? Thanx in advance, Jochen DJ 5 BA J.Bredemeyer@tu-bs.de dj5ba@amsat.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 04:49:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA11299 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA11294 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:48:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00382; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:12:16 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711061242.XAA00382@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Tony Overfield cc: Terry Lambert , jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: >64MB In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 04:01:03 MDT." <3.0.3.32.19971106040103.006ede20@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 23:12:16 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Speaking of vm86(), why not just use real-mode? It's easier and much > better for compatibility while booting. How do you copy the kernel into memory > 1M in real mode? If you could elaborate on this (and how to *stay* in real mode while running over 1M, ie. so that the kzip pass and subsequent real-mode startup requirements could be met), I'd be *very*happy* > The APM init code seems to have a good example of > making real-mode BIOS calls from the kernel during initialization. ??!! You should actually take a look at it some day, I think. The APM real-mode code sucks. One of my greatest desires is actually to move it from very early (in locore) to very late (after the vm86daemon is started), and do the initial startup from vm86 mode. This is the same way that the SMB BIOS will (hopefully) be started. First thing though is getting vm86 working for this in the kernel... I *know* you're well informed on these matters, but also busy. However any assistance you may be able to offer would be not only appreciated but _used_. mike (Yes, I've been keeping various references from your messages... 8) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 05:04:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA11913 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:04:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA11908 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:04:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from mail.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa16162; 6 Nov 97 8:03 EST Received: from stretch.cs.virginia.edu (atf3r@stretch-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.14]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06694; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from atf3r@localhost) by stretch.cs.virginia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA00270; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:03:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:03:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: adrian@virginia.edu To: Niall Smart cc: Terry Lambert , jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Niall Smart wrote: > On Nov 5, 7:23pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > } Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? > > > > I have to say that my introduction to UNIX was via the games. > > [snip] > > > If you kill the games, you damage "recruitment". > > With all respect, studies show that only 1/100000 people install FreeBSD > to play text mode games. > > Niall Perhaps, but pleanty of people who are introduced to a new OS, are shown how to play games on it. Who said the installed games were for the person who installed the system? Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualzation Lab -->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 05:11:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA12444 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:11:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA12435 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michaelh@cet.co.jp) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id NAA06282; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:10:05 GMT Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:10:05 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Luigi Rizzo cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: procmail problems In-Reply-To: <199711061011.LAA24917@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > On one of our servers we have replaced "mail" with procmail, mainly to > have the possibility of putting mailboxes in user directories instead > of having 3000+ files in /var/mail . But for some reason, procmail > quite often starts growing until it exhausts the swap space causing > itself and a bunch of other processes to get killed. > > Are there known problem in procmail, and is there any simple > alternative for achieving our main goal (putting mailboxes into users' > directories instead of /var/mail) ? Check out the FAQ at http://www.sendmail.org. Regards, Mike > Thanks > Luigi > -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- > Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione > email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa > tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) > fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ > _____________________________|______________________________________ > -- michaelh@cet.co.jp http://www.cet.co.jp CET Inc., Daiichi Kasuya BLDG 8F 2-5-12, Higashi Shinbashi, Minato-ku, Tokyo 105 Japan Tel: +81-3-3437-1761 Fax: +81-3-3437-1766 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 05:48:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA14579 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:48:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA14567 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:48:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA07313; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:40:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:40:21 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: Mike Smith cc: Tony Overfield , Terry Lambert , jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: >64MB In-Reply-To: <199711061242.XAA00382@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Speaking of vm86(), why not just use real-mode? It's easier and much > > better for compatibility while booting. > > How do you copy the kernel into memory > 1M in real mode? If you could > elaborate on this (and how to *stay* in real mode while running over > 1M, ie. so that the kzip pass and subsequent real-mode startup > requirements could be met), I'd be *very*happy* Huh? Is that the limitation? I haven't personally used them, but there are methods to do this, if you can go into protected mode first, set limits, then go back to real mode. Can you do that one? If so, I'll personally test such a thing, I can do that here. The method I'm talking about is commonly known (among those that use it) as voodoo memory, I think. The word voodoo is in there somewhere, anyways. Some game folks have written programs that run completely in such a environment, although that seems really unsafe to me. The limits you set in pmode stay active in real-mode. I haven't addressed this before, so if this is completely off-base, you can ignore me. > > > The APM init code seems to have a good example of > > making real-mode BIOS calls from the kernel during initialization. > > ??!! You should actually take a look at it some day, I think. The APM > real-mode code sucks. > > One of my greatest desires is actually to move it from very early (in > locore) to very late (after the vm86daemon is started), and do the > initial startup from vm86 mode. This is the same way that the SMB > BIOS will (hopefully) be started. First thing though is getting vm86 > working for this in the kernel... > > I *know* you're well informed on these matters, but also busy. However > any assistance you may be able to offer would be not only appreciated > but _used_. > > mike > (Yes, I've been keeping various references from your messages... 8) > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 05:58:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA15977 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:58:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA15969 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:58:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06371; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:06:19 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199711061406.PAA06371@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: >64MB In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971106040103.006ede20@bugs.us.dell.com> from Tony Overfield at "Nov 6, 97 04:01:03 am" To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:06:18 +0100 (CET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Tony Overfield: > >There is no graceful failure mode possible for a failure to > >load yourself. > > How about this message, "Not enough extended memory found! > (4 MB needed)"? No, I'm not really arguing for any changes here, > the days of 640K systems are long gone, but graceful failure is > indeed possible. Heh. How are you going to get that message (or a filename to get it from), plus the check and such into 12 bytes? :-\ Remember we're darn low on space in the boot block. It seems to me not doing the check at all, and just loading the kernel, and hoping it works would be better. Then you could save the bytes used today to find out how much memory we have and instead do that right in the begining of the kernel code. Specially if we don't use the value anyway. (!?) /Mikael From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 06:03:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA16784 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:03:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from kaori.communique.net (kaori.communique.net [204.27.67.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA16778 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:03:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mango@staff.communique.net) Received: by kaori.communique.net with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:01:51 -0600 Message-ID: From: Raul Zighelboim To: "'hackers@freefall.freebsd.org'" Cc: Jacques Vidrine Subject: Help! system crashing! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:01:50 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is what the console says: ----------- panic: RAM parity error, likely hardware failure. syncing disks... 474 473 464 453 431 405 372 316 240 146 41 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 giving up Automatic reboot in 15 seconds - press a key on the console to abort -------------- I am using EDO non-parity RAM. Just in case, this is the system: Copyright (c) 1992-1997 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE #0: Thu Nov 6 07:55:43 CST 1997 root@:/usr/src/sys/compile/KIYOKO CPU: Pentium Pro (199.43-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x619 Stepping=9 Features=0xfbff,MTRR,PGE,M CA,CMOV> real memory = 536870912 (524288K bytes) avail memory = 523280384 (511016K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0 rev 2 on pci0:0 chip1 rev 1 on pci0:7:0 chip2 rev 0 on pci0:7:1 ahc0 rev 0 int a irq 9 on pci0:12 ahc0: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16/255 SCBs ahc0 waiting for scsi devices to settle ahc0: target 0 Tagged Queuing Device (ahc0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST410800W 0006" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 8669MB (17755614 512 byte sectors) ahc0: target 1 Tagged Queuing Device (ahc0:1:0): "SEAGATE ST410800W 0006" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd2(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 8669MB (17755614 512 byte sectors) ahc0: target 2 Tagged Queuing Device (ahc0:2:0): "SEAGATE ST410800W 0006" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd3(ahc0:2:0): Direct-Access 8669MB (17755614 512 byte sectors) ahc0: target 3 Tagged Queuing Device (ahc0:3:0): "QUANTUM VIKING 4.5 WSE 8808" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ahc0:3:0): Direct-Access 4345MB (8899737 512 byte sectors) ahc1 rev 0 int a irq 10 on pci0:13 ahc1: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16/255 SCBs ahc1 waiting for scsi devices to settle ahc1: target 1 Tagged Queuing Device (ahc1:1:0): "QUANTUM VIKING 2.3 WSE 8808" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd5(ahc1:1:0): Direct-Access 2171MB (4446801 512 byte sectors) ahc1: target 2 Tagged Queuing Device (ahc1:2:0): "QUANTUM VIKING 2.3 WSE 8808" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd6(ahc1:2:0): Direct-Access 2171MB (4446801 512 byte sectors) ahc1: target 3 Tagged Queuing Device (ahc1:3:0): "QUANTUM VIKING 2.3 WSE 8808" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd7(ahc1:3:0): Direct-Access 2171MB (4446801 512 byte sectors) ahc1: target 4 Tagged Queuing Device (ahc1:4:0): "QUANTUM VIKING 2.3 WSE 8808" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd8(ahc1:4:0): Direct-Access 2171MB (4446801 512 byte sectors) fxp0 rev 2 int a irq 11 on pci0:14 fxp0: Ethernet address 00:a0:c9:66:eb:72 Probing for devices on the ISA bus: vt0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard vt0: tvga 8900cl, 80/132 col, color, 8 scr, mf2-kbd, [R3.20-b24] sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface ccd0-5: Concatenated disk drivers IP packet filtering initialized, divert disabled, unlimited logging swapon: adding /dev/sd0s1b as swap device From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 07:48:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23509 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:48:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23496 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:48:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@visint.co.uk) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12873 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:48:21 GMT Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:48:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Stephen Roome To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: /usr/include/net/if.h Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk line 69 from /usr/include/net/if.h : (3.0-971022-SNAP) struct timeval ifi_lastchange; /* time of last administrative change */ This file doesn't include anything to tell it what struct timeval is, adding. #include To the top of this file does the job, shouldn't it be there ? [I've mentioned this before (previous snapshots) I think and can't remember if there was a good reason for the omission ? Although someone did give a reason I think.] Steve. -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 08:41:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26362 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:41:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26357 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:41:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mouth@ibm.net) Received: from slip129-37-53-114.ca.us.ibm.net (slip129-37-53-114.ca.us.ibm.net [129.37.53.114]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA168704 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:41:16 GMT From: mouth@ibm.net (John Kelly) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Startech 16650 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 17:42:34 GMT Message-ID: <3461f284.240807732@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id IAA26358 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:50:51 -0500 (EST), Evan Champion wrote: >> What's a 16650 (is this the thing w/ the 256 byte FIFO) ? > >32 byte, on-chip flow control and 460.8 Kbps max port speed. The Startech 16C650 has a 32-byte FIFO, but they also make a quad version, 4 UARTs on a chip called the 16C654 which has 64-byte FIFOs. 460.8k is the max port speed for common implementations, and that would be the case where a 7.3728 MHz clock is used. But the databook says the chip can take any clock input up to 24 MHz, giving a maximum possible "baud" rate of 1,500k, assuming your serial cable and other external hardware could handle signals at that speed. >No, 16650's run the port at 4x whatever speed you set it to. Only if using a 7.3728 MHz clock. But if using the typical 1.8432 MHz clock found on older serial adapters you will get the usual 1x speeds. >So a port set at 57600 is treated as 230.4 Kbps. Again, only with the 7.3728 MHz clock. I have a serial card which lets me select the clock via hardware jumpers: 1.8432 MHz for 1x speeds, 3.6864 MHz for 2x speeds, or 7.3728 MHz for 4x speeds. Also, there is a new software bit setting on the 650 to create even more UART confusion: MCR bit 7. If set to "1" on the 650, then the clock is further divided by 4 to provide speed compatibility with software written for the older 550 UART. The reason for dividing by 4 is because a 7.3728 MHz clock is exactly 4 times faster than the 1.8432 MHz clock typically used with a 550. In other words, if using a 7.3728 MHz clock with a 650, and you want the older 1x speeds instead of the newer 4x speeds, set MCR bit 7 to "1" on the 650. On the other hand, if you can select the older 1.8432 MHz clock via hardware jumpers as my serial card allows, you don't have to worry about setting MCR bit 7 -- and in fact don't want to, because if using a 1.8432 MHz clock, you would inadvertently lower all your expected baud rates by a factor of 4. This situation provides much opportunity for confusion among serial device driver writers and users. BTW, who maintains the FreeBSD SIO driver? John From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 08:57:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27255 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:57:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from cindy.ensino.ibilce.unesp.br (root@cindy.ensino.ibilce.unesp.br [200.17.30.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27247 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:57:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from GABRIEL@midway.ensino.ibilce.unesp.br) From: GABRIEL@midway.ensino.ibilce.unesp.br Received: from midway.ensino.ibilce.unesp.br (midway.ensino.ibilce.unesp.br [200.17.30.230]) by cindy.ensino.ibilce.unesp.br (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24208 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:54:20 -0200 Received: from MIDWAY/SpoolDir by midway.ensino.ibilce.unesp.br (Mercury 1.21); 6 Nov 97 13:58:30 gmt -0300 Received: from SpoolDir by MIDWAY (Mercury 1.30); 6 Nov 97 13:56:48 gmt -0300 To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:56:43 GMT-0300 Subject: X-Confirm-Reading-To: X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.40 (NDS) Message-ID: <14D5F67FA4@midway.ensino.ibilce.unesp.br> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk subscribe From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 09:17:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28443 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:17:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from roguetrader.com (brandon@cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28437; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:17:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandon@roguetrader.com) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by roguetrader.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA10654; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:17:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:17:24 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-Reply-To: <4398.878788481@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Ok, I have a fresh/cleanly installed 2.2.5-R server. I recompiled the > > kernel to include the atalk option, I installed the netatalk package. All > > I want to do is to have this server be a unix->mac print spooler. I've > > dug through http files EVERYWHERE--I have read a ton of linux files on > > And you read the 2.2.5 ERRATA as I've been practically begging everyone > to do, right? :-) AUGH, feh, ok, something better needs to be done. Last I checked the 2.2.5 ERRATA it was empty. What about creating a xxx-errata mailing list, for each release? I.e. 2.2.5-errata, and have any changes placed in the errata mailed to the list as well, so we dont have to check it every day? There is no other easy way I can think of for one to learn of updates to the errata file--since the last time one checks it.. Just make it a sysconfig option of 'do you want to be added to the errata list for x release?' if yes, ask for an email address and shoot off an email submission request (if it fails, tell them user what to do). -Brandon From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 09:21:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28759 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:21:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28749 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:20:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xTVRy-0000RX-00; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:10:34 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:10:20 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Luigi Rizzo cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: procmail problems In-Reply-To: <199711061011.LAA24917@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > On one of our servers we have replaced "mail" with procmail, mainly to Actually, mail.local does local delivery, so I guess you replaced that? > have the possibility of putting mailboxes in user directories instead > of having 3000+ files in /var/mail . But for some reason, procmail > quite often starts growing until it exhausts the swap space causing > itself and a bunch of other processes to get killed. 3000 files in /var/mail isn't so bad. If you time an open() call on a file in /var/mail and one in a directory with only one file, you won't notice much of a difference. procmail uses lots of memory. You might want to limit the maximum message size. I consider procmail rather wasteful, in both CPU and memory. It loads the entire message into RAM, and scans it, making it slow and costly. > Are there known problem in procmail, and is there any simple > alternative for achieving our main goal (putting mailboxes into users' > directories instead of /var/mail) ? Well, you could use tmail from the imap-utils package (from UW). It is intended as a mail.local replacement, and it can deliver to all kinds of places. > Thanks > Luigi > -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- > Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione > email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa > tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) > fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ > _____________________________|______________________________________ > > Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 09:26:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29063 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:26:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29054 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:26:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA00364; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:52:17 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711061722.DAA00364@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Chuck Robey cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: >64MB In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 07:40:21 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 03:52:16 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > > Speaking of vm86(), why not just use real-mode? It's easier and much > > > better for compatibility while booting. > > > > How do you copy the kernel into memory > 1M in real mode? If you could > > elaborate on this (and how to *stay* in real mode while running over > > 1M, ie. so that the kzip pass and subsequent real-mode startup > > requirements could be met), I'd be *very*happy* > > Huh? Is that the limitation? That's ths crux. That and the fact that our toolchain doesn't generate real-mode code very well, so what we produce runs best in protected mode. We just drop back to real mode to call the BIOS. Check the boot sources for a better picture of what goes on; if you have any ideas, we're always open. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 09:43:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00372 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:43:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00364 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:43:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA03666; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd003662; Thu Nov 6 17:37:36 1997 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:35:50 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Didier Derny cc: Charles Henrich , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD shines..[Fwd: Re: semaphore speed] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ftp://samba.anu.edu.au/pub/tridge/(something).c On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Didier Derny wrote: > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Charles Henrich wrote: > > > > > FreeBSD 2.2.2 on a 200MHz pentium > > > > fcntl: 3.16579 secs > > > > ipc: 2.63504 secs > > > > where may I find these benchmarks > > > thanks > > -- > didier > didier@omnix.net > > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 09:47:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00604 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00599 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:46:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08620; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:46:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971106094616.51849@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:46:16 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Chuck Robey Cc: Mike Smith , Tony Overfield , Terry Lambert , jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Jonathan Mini Subject: Re: >64MB References: <199711061242.XAA00382@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Thu, Nov 06, 1997 at 07:40:21AM -0500 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey scribbled this message on Nov 6: > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > > Speaking of vm86(), why not just use real-mode? It's easier and much > > > better for compatibility while booting. > > > > How do you copy the kernel into memory > 1M in real mode? If you could > > elaborate on this (and how to *stay* in real mode while running over > > 1M, ie. so that the kzip pass and subsequent real-mode startup > > requirements could be met), I'd be *very*happy* > > Huh? Is that the limitation? I haven't personally used them, but there > are methods to do this, if you can go into protected mode first, set > limits, then go back to real mode. Can you do that one? If so, I'll > personally test such a thing, I can do that here. > > The method I'm talking about is commonly known (among those that use it) > as voodoo memory, I think. The word voodoo is in there somewhere, > anyways. Some game folks have written programs that run completely in > such a environment, although that seems really unsafe to me. The limits > you set in pmode stay active in real-mode. yep... I've heard of this (they called it Un-real mode :) )... but basicly you set your registers to a 4gig limit instead of the 64k limit that they have normally... I've bounced your message, Mike, to a friend of mine (Jonathan Mini) who will be able to help with this... he was quite surprised that we kept flipping between real and protected mode when he first saw the boot blocks... > I haven't addressed this before, so if this is completely off-base, you > can ignore me. nope... I've seen this before... so you arnaren't.. :) -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 10:09:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02357 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:09:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02352 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:09:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00386; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:09:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:09:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: John Kelly cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Startech 16650 In-Reply-To: <3461f284.240807732@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, John Kelly wrote: > >No, 16650's run the port at 4x whatever speed you set it to. > > Only if using a 7.3728 MHz clock. But if using the typical 1.8432 MHz > clock found on older serial adapters you will get the usual 1x speeds. Actually, I think the 16650 has a software flag to quadruple the baud rate, though from the way it works, I think you need to make sure your oscilators are more accurate. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 10:49:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04600 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:49:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr03.primenet.com (tlambert@usr03.primenet.com [206.165.6.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04577 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:49:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr03.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr03.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28069; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:47:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711061847.LAA28069@usr03.primenet.com> Subject: Re: >64MB To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:47:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tony@dell.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711061242.XAA00382@word.smith.net.au> from "Mike Smith" at Nov 6, 97 11:12:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How do you copy the kernel into memory > 1M in real mode? If you could > elaborate on this (and how to *stay* in real mode while running over > 1M, ie. so that the kzip pass and subsequent real-mode startup > requirements could be met), I'd be *very*happy* There are several ways to do this. The main one uses a call that drops into protected mode, changes a 64k mapping at the top of the 1M you can get at, and goes back to protected mode. You can see a nice example of this in your config.sys on most DOS machines, where you probably load an EMS, XMS, or DPMI driver so DOS (and more likely, Windows 3.x) can use memory above 1M. There are a couple other tricks you can do, but they pretty much require Appendix H functions, and not all clone processors can do that. I highly recommend the "MindShare" book "Protected Mode Software Architecture" (I think that is the title). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 10:57:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05361 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05356 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:57:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mouth@ibm.net) Received: from slip129-37-53-87.ca.us.ibm.net (slip129-37-53-87.ca.us.ibm.net [129.37.53.87]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA31910 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:57:21 GMT From: mouth@ibm.net (John Kelly) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Startech 16650 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 19:58:39 GMT Message-ID: <34631964.250751244@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA05357 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:09:40 -0800 (PST), "Eric J. Schwertfeger" wrote: >> >No, 16650's run the port at 4x whatever speed you set it to. >> >> Only if using a 7.3728 MHz clock. But if using the typical 1.8432 MHz >> clock found on older serial adapters you will get the usual 1x speeds. > >Actually, I think the 16650 has a software flag to quadruple the baud >rate NO. This is a good example of UART confusion. On a 16650, by default MCR bit 7 is "0" and in this state the 650 UART will set the baud rate according to the input clock (in MHz) divided first by the two-byte value contained in the divisor latch MSB and LSB, and then further divided by 16. Take for example: a 16650 UART with a 7.3728 MHz clock, and the value 1 in the divisor latch. Divide 7,372,800 by 1 and then by 16; the answer is 460,800 which is the *maximum* baud rate for the 650 with a 7.3728 MHz clock. However, the maximum baud rate of 460,800 can be lowered by increasing the divisor latch to values above 1. For instance, 192 (decimal) gives a baud rate of 2400, at least in the case where a 7.3728 MHz clock is used. While MCR bit 7 remains undisturbed at its default value of "0" it may *seem* like there is a "software flag to quadruple the baud rate" but the higher baud rate actually results from the higher clock input of the 7.3728 MHz clock, not the effect of MCR bit 7. The effect of setting MCR bit 7 to "1" is exactly the opposite; it further divides the baud rate by 4 to maintain compatibility with older 550 software when the higher 7.3728 clock is used. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 11:44:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07743 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:44:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from homer.supersex.com (homer.supersex.com [209.5.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07738 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:44:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leo@homer.supersex.com) Received: (from leo@localhost) by homer.supersex.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA12393; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:43:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971106144342.37190@homer.supersex.com> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:43:42 -0500 From: Leo Papandreou To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e In-Reply-To: ; from Niall Smart on Thu, Nov 06, 1997 at 11:41:35AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Nov 06, 1997 at 11:41:35AM +0000, Niall Smart wrote: > On Nov 5, 7:23pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > } Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? > > > > I have to say that my introduction to UNIX was via the games. > > [snip] > > > If you kill the games, you damage "recruitment". > > With all respect, studies show that only 1/100000 people install FreeBSD > to play text mode games. FreeBSD - Be the 3rd person to play rogue. > > Niall From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 12:07:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09248 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr03.primenet.com (tlambert@usr03.primenet.com [206.165.6.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09241 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:07:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr03.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr03.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06945; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:06:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711062006.NAA06945@usr03.primenet.com> Subject: Re: >64MB To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:06:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971106040103.006ede20@bugs.us.dell.com> from "Tony Overfield" at Nov 6, 97 04:01:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >At least the "base memory" in the CMOS must be examined to determine > >memory which can not be given over to the kernel for it to scribble on. > > Well, I was obviously talking about extended memory, not base memory, > but I'll bite on this sucker bait anyway... ;-) > > I claim your argument is wrong. The INT 12h BIOS call will (and must) > always reflect any "keyhole allocations". The RTC value will *not* > reflect them. The BIOS call provides precisely the correct value, > unless you happen to think the kernel should steal the memory back > from the BIOS, which is, of course, extremely risky. HP Vectra. AT&T 6386 WGS. Etc.. I did the original patch to 386BSD 0.1 to emit the warning message that the RTC check compares to 640. The BIOS calls didn't show the missing memory on these machines, so the test stayed. 8-). > Yes, but the bootloader already knows how much memory is there. It > knows this before the kernel is loaded. It can make sure there is > enough memory before the kernel is loaded. It can and does pass > that value to the kernel after it is loaded. The kernel then throws > it away and gets the wrong information from the CMOS. The kernel should not be dependent on data from the boot loader, really. If it is, it means that the boot loader can't be shared among OS's without a *lot* of effort. > Speaking of vm86(), why not just use real-mode? It's easier and much > better for compatibility while booting. Yes, and no. If I have a FreeBSD kernel HAL, then I need to avoid architecture dependent things before I hit protected mode and can run as the kernel-before-init-has-been-started. Technically (yes, I know this is not quite sane), with an ELF-based kernel, I can build a bootable CDROM that will boot on a PowerPC (which takes the DOS MBR into account as data, and expects a DOS partition table), an Alpha (which can do the same), and any other reasonable machine that can identify, uniquely, it's boot code not living at the front of a CDROM. We have to make an exception for Intel because BIOS POST routines are brain damaged on Intel machines, and don't expect non-Intel disks to be shared with them. The ELF comes in by using section flagging by architecture type; this lets me have one binary that will run on multiple architectures. In other words, one kernel file on the CDROM. This is just one example... don't take it reductio ad absurdum. ;-). > I do remember your dreams > of running SCSI option ROM code in multi-use mode, but that's surely > a long way off. Actually, I just wanted to run EISA config and MCA config utilities. The SCSI link was I wanted to be able to modularly replace the free Adaptec driver with a binary-only HIM-based driver. That's even *more* interesting to me now that that's the only way to currently get RAID support on some Adaptec controllers. > The APM init code seems to have a good example of > making real-mode BIOS calls from the kernel during initialization. It's not, really. It's far from general, and the memory contortions are similar to those that the MACH based loader uses to get at INT 13. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 12:13:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09780 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:13:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr03.primenet.com (tlambert@usr03.primenet.com [206.165.6.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09772 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr03.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr03.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07641; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:11:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711062011.NAA07641@usr03.primenet.com> Subject: Re: procmail problems To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:11:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711061011.LAA24917@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Nov 6, 97 11:11:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Are there known problem in procmail, and is there any simple > alternative for achieving our main goal (putting mailboxes into users' > directories instead of /var/mail) ? Well, you can hack the sendmail.cf to do it. At WSU, we used amd symlinks to do it. It was far more general, since we used the same thing for user's HTML and CGI to support their own home pages, and also to make "/home" look the same on all machines, but move accounts between partitions as space dictated, without having to change the NIS maps inside the secure zone from /home/username. Very useful. Be careful if you NFS cross-mount some home directories to distribute users among systems (we did that, too, but we made xdm log them into whatever their home machine was by default, so we didn't have NFS access problems with the mail). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 13:05:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13422 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:05:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13414; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10988; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:05:31 -0800 (PST) To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 10:17:24 MST." Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 13:05:31 -0800 Message-ID: <10984.878850331@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > AUGH, feh, ok, something better needs to be done. Last I checked the > 2.2.5 ERRATA it was empty. What about creating a xxx-errata mailing Yes, and it also says explicitly that you should check back with it since it will be updated periodically. You need to do what it says, that's all. :-) > list, for each release? I.e. 2.2.5-errata, and have any changes placed in > the errata mailed to the list as well, so we dont have to check it every No, please. I can't deal with yet another mailing list to have to make announcements to - there are enough on my checklist already. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 13:06:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13502 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13497 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:06:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [143.166.12.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA06828; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:05:03 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971106134724.00706114@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 13:47:24 -0600 To: Mikael Karpberg From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: >64MB Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711061406.PAA06371@ocean.campus.luth.se> References: <3.0.3.32.19971106040103.006ede20@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 03:06 PM 11/6/97 +0100, Mikael Karpberg wrote: >Heh. How are you going to get that message (or a filename to get it from), >plus the check and such into 12 bytes? :-\ >Remember we're darn low on space in the boot block. Yes, I know. My boot blocks were supporting ">64MB" almost a year ago. At this point, the space restriction is the first problem to solve, and I don't think that the best way to solve it is through strict conservation. >It seems to me not doing the check at all, and just loading the kernel, and >hoping it works would be better. It's smaller, not better. But whenever space is the most important constraint, you have to do this anyway. Space conservation is a large part of my day job, and there are still more space saving tricks that can be used in the bootloader, but you really don't want to be having this unnecessary restriction hanging around your neck. - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 13:08:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13705 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:08:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13693 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [143.166.12.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA06840; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:05:07 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971106150255.006d5438@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 15:02:55 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: >64MB Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711062006.NAA06945@usr03.primenet.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19971106040103.006ede20@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 08:06 PM 11/6/97 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> The INT 12h BIOS call will (and must) >> always reflect any "keyhole allocations". >HP Vectra. AT&T 6386 WGS. Etc.. > >I did the original patch to 386BSD 0.1 to emit the warning message >that the RTC check compares to 640. Well, as I pointed out before, the RTC value causes a warning message, but no other action is taken. The BIOS value is always used, no matter what, which is IMO, the correct behavior. The RTC value provides nothing useful in a correctly designed system. >The BIOS calls didn't show >the missing memory on these machines, so the test stayed. 8-). I claim that even MS-DOS cannot work right if this is really true. I *do* believe that the RTC value could *also* show the memory reduction, but I simply don't believe that INT 12h didn't show it. I sure can't find any code in FreeBSD that avoids memory based on the RTC value. >The kernel should not be dependent on data from the boot loader, really. >If it is, it means that the boot loader can't be shared among OS's >without a *lot* of effort. Why not use a common bootinfo structure? >> peaking of vm86(), why not just use real-mode? It's easier and much >> better for compatibility while booting. > >Yes, and no. > >If I have a FreeBSD kernel HAL, then I need to avoid architecture >dependent things before I hit protected mode and can run as the >kernel-before-init-has-been-started. If you have a HAL, then the architecture dependent HAL driver is the code that should worry about the architecture dependent things. >Technically (yes, I know this is not quite sane), with an ELF-based >kernel, I can build a bootable CDROM that will boot on a PowerPC >(which takes the DOS MBR into account as data, and expects a DOS >partition table), an Alpha (which can do the same), and any other >reasonable machine that can identify, uniquely, it's boot code not >living at the front of a CDROM. We have to make an exception for >Intel because BIOS POST routines are brain damaged on Intel machines, >and don't expect non-Intel disks to be shared with them. > >The ELF comes in by using section flagging by architecture type; >this lets me have one binary that will run on multiple architectures. >In other words, one kernel file on the CDROM. > >This is just one example... don't take it reductio ad absurdum. ;-). Ok. This is interesting, but it doesn't argue for using the CMOS RTC memory values. In fact, I'm not sure what it argues for. It's absurd to think you can boot without an architecture specific boot loader, isn't it? >> The APM init code seems to have a good example of >> making real-mode BIOS calls from the kernel during initialization. > >It's not, really. It's far from general, and the memory contortions >are similar to those that the MACH based loader uses to get at INT 13. >8-(. Well, I guess I'm far too familiar with the contortions to be offended by them. :-/ - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 13:10:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13933 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13926 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [143.166.12.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA06837; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:05:06 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971106141214.006d5438@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 14:12:14 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: >64MB Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711061847.LAA28069@usr03.primenet.com> References: <199711061242.XAA00382@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 06:47 PM 11/6/97 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> How do you copy the kernel into memory > 1M in real mode? > >There are several ways to do this. The main one uses a call that drops >into protected mode, changes a 64k mapping at the top of the 1M >you can get at, and goes back to protected mode. > >You can see a nice example of this in your config.sys on most DOS >machines, where you probably load an EMS, XMS, or DPMI driver so >DOS (and more likely, Windows 3.x) can use memory above 1M. > I can't tell, but I think you're talking about one of these: 1. ... switching to protected mode, setting larger segment limits and then switching back to real mode. It's very unlikely that you have anything in your config.sys that uses this trick. There's no benefit to using it, and there are serious compatibility problems with it. 2. ... the real mode trick of using FFFF:xxxx addressing. This lets you address up to 64K-16 bytes of memory above 1M in real mode. Protected mode is not needed to enable or use this trick. It is completely inadequate for loading a kernel. In DOS, this is called the HMA "high memory area". It is used when use have DOS=HIGH in your config.sys, as one example. 3. Something else. If so, please state it more clearly. - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 13:10:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14018 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:10:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14013 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:10:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [143.166.12.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA06834; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:05:05 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971106150448.006d5438@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 15:04:48 -0600 To: John-Mark Gurney , Chuck Robey From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: >64MB Cc: Mike Smith , Terry Lambert , jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Jonathan Mini In-Reply-To: <19971106094616.51849@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> References: <199711061242.XAA00382@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:46 AM 11/6/97 -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: >Chuck Robey scribbled this message on Nov 6: >> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: >> > > >> > > Speaking of vm86(), why not just use real-mode? It's easier and much >> > > better for compatibility while booting. >> > >> > How do you copy the kernel into memory > 1M in real mode? If you could >> > elaborate on this (and how to *stay* in real mode while running over >> > 1M, ie. so that the kzip pass and subsequent real-mode startup >> > requirements could be met), I'd be *very*happy* >> >> Huh? Is that the limitation? I haven't personally used them, but there >> are methods to do this, if you can go into protected mode first, set >> limits, then go back to real mode. Can you do that one? If so, I'll >> personally test such a thing, I can do that here. >> >> The method I'm talking about is commonly known (among those that use it) >> as voodoo memory, I think. The word voodoo is in there somewhere, >> anyways. Some game folks have written programs that run completely in >> such a environment, although that seems really unsafe to me. The limits >> you set in pmode stay active in real-mode. > >yep... I've heard of this (they called it Un-real mode :) )... but >basicly you set your registers to a 4gig limit instead of the 64k limit >that they have normally... I've bounced your message, Mike, to a friend >of mine (Jonathan Mini) who will be able to help with this... Sorry for this useless diversion. It seems my question was ambiguous and that Mike took it the other way. I recommend against using this "unreal" mode trick. >he was quite surprised that we kept flipping between real and protected >mode when he first saw the boot blocks... I wonder why. I don't see anything wrong with flipping into and out of protected and real modes. After all, it needs to be done. My ambiguous question reworded would say... Once you are in the kernel startup code and running in protected mode, why not simply switch back to real mode for BIOS calls and etc. instead of trying to set up a VM86() facility? I think it's easier and much better for compatibility while booting. - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 14:15:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17922 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17917 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:15:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15715; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:16:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13258; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:16:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:16:53 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca To: Chuck Robey cc: Niall Smart , Terry Lambert , adrian@virginia.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > > With all respect, studies show that only 1/100000 people install FreeBSD > > to play text mode games. > > Umm, I don't see the smiley. Just what study are you referring to? I > wasn't aware any such had ever been done ... I suspect he meant to say something along the lines of, "Of all the studies I've seen, I've never seen a single one which shows that more than 1/1000000 people install FreeBSD so that they can play text mode games." ;-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 14:19:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18194 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from eps.ufsc.br (eps.ufsc.br [150.162.1.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18176 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:19:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from george@eps.ufsc.br) Received: from localhost (d43.ad.eps.ufsc.br [150.162.46.43]) by eps.ufsc.br (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA05944 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:18:54 -0200 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:18:11 -0200 (EDT) From: George Tavares X-Sender: george@localhost Reply-To: George Tavares To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bad144 & ide format In-Reply-To: <199711031945.UAA00778@flip.jhs.no_domain> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- One time I try to use the bad144 to recover a disk, but I have many errors in my HD, more than the table of bad sector definid by DEC Standart 144 (The DEC Standart is 126). All SCSI drives implement sector remaping and, luckily, my Maxtor implement it to, but ONLY with Low Level Format of the Maxtor. Now I run Free with no problems. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | George Tavares Ciencias da Computacao - UFSC | | Fone:(048)331-7020 E-mail: george@eps.ufsc.br | | http://www.eps.ufsc.br/~george PGP key disponivel por http | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNGJCOlMIPFxpfY6NAQFarAP+JtuYFj0UKq6ZKYXTtHnf6pIrC6CzNUlQ Xd7LjL6Mb2XFEDq2c5Td2Rk2RdN1+xodni3AQf/4U18DOnNDJr9Hq5Gb8rbofvvK tOveX0sKdvw/z0DypdlbVaDH/J7qFY9rSZRveuXRj98IBMxJBoiO923l8P0maU3Z kx1x2qqKXjU= =XttP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 14:31:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19021 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:31:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19015 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:31:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13295; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd013293; Thu Nov 6 22:29:52 1997 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:28:06 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Sunthiti Patchararungruang cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Quantum size? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk you mean scheduling quantum? 10 ticks each of 10 mSec this is tunable with sysctl in -current (I can't remember for 2.2.5) try sysctl kern.quantum On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Sunthiti Patchararungruang wrote: > Dear Everybody, > > I would like to know the quantum size of FreeBSD2.2.2. > > Best Regards, > Sunthiti Patchararungruang > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 14:50:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19842 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:50:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19837 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:50:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ambrisko@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13945; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from crab.whistle.com(207.76.205.112) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd013943; Thu Nov 6 22:48:10 1997 Received: (from ambrisko@localhost) by crab.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA11335; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:46:45 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Ambrisko Message-Id: <199711062246.OAA11335@crab.whistle.com> Subject: Re: Quantum size? In-Reply-To: from Sunthiti Patchararungruang at "Nov 6, 97 02:33:45 pm" To: a96456@cs.ait.ac.th (Sunthiti Patchararungruang) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:46:45 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL29 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sunthiti Patchararungruang writes: | | I would like to know the quantum size of FreeBSD2.2.2. I'm not sure when the change went in ... but it can be whatever you want (just not 0). Default is 10ms. We change it to make FreeBSD run more "batch-like". % sysctl kern.quantum kern.quantum: 10 % Doug A. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 15:08:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20867 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:08:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20860 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:08:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Hanse.DE!Stefan.Bethke@ppp.de) Received: by diablo.ppp.de (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0xTb2W-000TWXC; Fri, 7 Nov 97 00:08 MET Received: from monster.pong.ppp.de (monster.pong.ppp.de [193.141.161.123]) by pong.PPP.DE (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA08961; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:40:05 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711060040.BAA08961@pong.PPP.DE> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 01:25:51 +0100 From: Stefan.Bethke@Hanse.DE (Stefan Bethke) To: peruzzi@krenet.it (Simone Peruzzi) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pci to appletalk adapter??? References: <343cf08b.1472197@News.unipg.it> Organization: could be better Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <343cf08b.1472197@News.unipg.it>, peruzzi@krenet.it (Simone Peruzzi) wrote: > Hi everybody! > I wanna know two things: > first , if it does exist an adapter to fit inside a PC with WIN 95 in > order to use it as a printer server. I tried at Daynastar but I > couldn't find it. I was told there was an internal card (Pci standard) > that could fit into. Is it true? > Second: does anybody know the way to correctly use an NT server as a > printer server? > Thanks everybody. > Bye from Italy > Simone Just in case you didn't receive a reply yet: "AppleTalk" is a protocol suite, independent of the network media. What you probably mean is "LocalTalk", a networking system built into every Mac and many printers. To print to a printer via LocalTalk from FreeBSD, you'll need a network connection to the printer, and appropiate software. While there is a driver for an adapter not sold any more (for the last three years) to support LocalTalk, the easiest way is to get an Ethernet<->LocalTalk adapter for approx. $100, from vendors like Asante, Dayna or Farallon. Then, install the package/port netatalk, which allows you to print to Postscript printers connected via AppleTalk. Hope this helps, Stefan -- Stefan.Bethke@Hanse.DE http://www.promo.de/people/stefan/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 15:35:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA22067 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:35:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from arg1.demon.co.uk (arg1.demon.co.uk [194.222.34.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22052 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:35:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from arg@arg1.demon.co.uk) Received: (from arg@localhost) by arg1.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13772; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:43:10 GMT Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:43:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Gordon X-Sender: arg@server.arg.sj.co.uk To: Mike Smith cc: hackers@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: gettimeofday() overhead In-Reply-To: <199711041315.XAA00406@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > OTOH, if +/- 1 second is good enough, a once-a-second timer and a local > call to gettimeofday() would be a simple and straightforward technique, > as was also suggested. But for the application which (IIRC) started this discussion - NATD, that might be worse overall. Since NAT is often used with dial-up links, and hence not used at all for long periods, the cost of keeping the daemon in core and servicing the 1Hz ticks when it has no useful work to do could well add up to more overall system load than the individual calls per packet - gettimeofday() is quite cheap. Of course you could keep flags such that you turn off the timer when there is nothing going on (traded against a small overhead in maintaining flags to know when this is), but this seems unduly complex for a rather minor gain. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 16:02:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23257 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:02:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23252; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:02:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from panke.panke.de (anonymous230.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.230]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22266; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:57:59 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by panke.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA00557; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:52:14 +0100 (MET) To: Gopakumar H Pillai Cc: fs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Book on FreeBSD FileSystem? References: <3460CCE9.E558C8D9@global.com> From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 06 Nov 1997 23:52:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: Gopakumar H Pillai's message of Wed, 05 Nov 1997 11:45:45 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 10 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gopakumar H Pillai writes: > Could anyone tell me about a good book which talks inside out of FreeBSD > 2.2.2 file system or 4.4 BSD file system (I think FreeBSD 2.2.2 follows > 4.4 BSD FS). /usr/share/doc/smm/05.fastfs/paper.ascii.gz /usr/share/doc/papers/fsinterface.ascii.gz -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 16:30:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24788 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:30:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24779; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:30:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fhackers@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2009734; 7 Nov 97 0:22 GMT Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03937; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:41:37 GMT (envelope-from fhackers) Message-ID: <19971106204137.12039@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:41:37 +0000 From: James Raynard To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bad144 & ide format References: <199711031945.UAA00778@flip.jhs.no_domain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199711031945.UAA00778@flip.jhs.no_domain>; from Julian H. Stacey on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 08:45:43PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 08:45:43PM +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Help ! :-) > I've config'd & used loads of SCSI drives on FreeBSD systems, > but I never seem to be able to correctly add IDE drives to pre-built systems ... > > all I want to do is format them, run a bad144 on them to fix > the bad blocks, disklabel & newfs & add them to existing systems. Talk about doing things the hard way :-) As described in the FAQ, you can do this by running /stand/sysinstall on an existing system - there's even an option to run a bad blocks scan first. (Although doing it all by hand should work as well). > The strange thing is, despite bad144 producing these error messages, > I can newfs a 200M file system & write & read check data to the FS > without consolke errors, but I must be walking a tightrope, in light of the > bad144 error report. >From the FAQ: 4.1. I have bad blocks on my hard drive! [explanation of SCSI block re-mapping] For other drive types, you are dependent on support from the operating system. Unfortunately, the ``bad144'' command that FreeBSD supplies for this purpose needs a considerable amount of work done on it. In other words, it doesn't work. If you're lucky, you can create a file that contains the bad blocks and stuff it away with a name like ".BADBLOCKS". This is how I got 386BSD Patchkit 24 completed. NOTE: don't do this unless your time is effectively free. IDE drives are _supposed_ to come with built-in bad-block remapping; if you have documentation for your drive, you may want to see if this feature has been disabled on your drive. However, ESDI, RLL, and ST-506 drives normally do not do this. -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 16:48:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25791 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr01.primenet.com (tlambert@usr01.primenet.com [206.165.6.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25782 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:48:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19061; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:47:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711070047.RAA19061@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: >64MB To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:47:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971106150255.006d5438@bugs.us.dell.com> from "Tony Overfield" at Nov 6, 97 03:02:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >The kernel should not be dependent on data from the boot loader, really. > >If it is, it means that the boot loader can't be shared among OS's > >without a *lot* of effort. > > Why not use a common bootinfo structure? Because the free software groups are constitutionally incapable of agreeing on such a thing. > >Yes, and no. > > > >If I have a FreeBSD kernel HAL, then I need to avoid architecture > >dependent things before I hit protected mode and can run as the > >kernel-before-init-has-been-started. > > If you have a HAL, then the architecture dependent HAL driver is the > code that should worry about the architecture dependent things. Yes. And it would run in the same mode as the kernel itself, right, because the kernel shouldn't have to know how to mode change because knowing that would make it architecture dependent. > >This is just one example... don't take it reductio ad absurdum. ;-). > > Ok. This is interesting, but it doesn't argue for using the CMOS RTC > memory values. In fact, I'm not sure what it argues for. It's absurd > to think you can boot without an architecture specific boot loader, > isn't it? Why not use a common boot mechanism? Heh. "Because the hardware vendors are constitutionally incapable of agreeing on such a thing". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 16:54:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA26126 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dog.farm.org (dog.farm.org [209.66.103.33] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26116 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:54:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dog.farm.org!dk) Received: (from dk@localhost) by dog.farm.org (8.7.5/dk#3) id RAA27174; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:00:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:00:17 -0800 (PST) From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk Message-Id: <199711070100.RAA27174@dog.farm.org> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two Newsgroups: cs-monolit.gated.lists.freebsd.hackers Organization: FARM Computing Association Reply-To: dk+@ua.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <10984.878850331@time.cdrom.com> you wrote: > Yes, and it also says explicitly that you should check back with it > since it will be updated periodically. You need to do what it says, > that's all. :-) > > list, for each release? I.e. 2.2.5-errata, and have any changes placed in > > the errata mailed to the list as well, so we dont have to check it every > No, please. I can't deal with yet another mailing list to have > to make announcements to - there are enough on my checklist already. :) what about posting errata diffs to freebsd-announce every 2 weeks or on every security bug, whatever comes first? -- "What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy?" - Ursula LeGuin From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 16:54:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA26144 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:54:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from usr01.primenet.com (tlambert@usr01.primenet.com [206.165.6.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26118 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:54:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19368; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:52:29 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711070052.RAA19368@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: >64MB To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:52:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, mike@smith.net.au, tlambert@primenet.com, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, j_mini@efn.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971106150448.006d5438@bugs.us.dell.com> from "Tony Overfield" at Nov 6, 97 03:04:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My ambiguous question reworded would say... > > Once you are in the kernel startup code and running in protected mode, > why not simply switch back to real mode for BIOS calls and etc. instead > of trying to set up a VM86() facility? I think it's easier and much > better for compatibility while booting. I don't understand how it's a compatability win. Plus there's still the issue of "what INT 13 disk maps to what controller and target", that's the reason we can't know the BIOS geometry to make up good fdisk data in the first place... Plus we need a VM86() in general in any case, since we may need to call the BIOS mode setting code for standard PCI/EISA/ISA video cards that are plugged into non-Intel hardware, etc., because card vendors don't know how to write data dependencies in a seperate area of their BIOS so a non-Intel OS could figure out how to program the card without needing information obtained under non-disclosure. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 17:12:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27215 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:12:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27208 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:12:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jandrese@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25775 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from jandrese.async.vt.edu (jandrese.async.vt.edu [128.173.19.77]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA23741 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:12:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:12:47 -0500 (EST) From: Jason Andresen X-Sender: jandrese@jandrese.async.vt.edu To: FreeBSD Hackers Listserv Subject: Re: Quantum size? In-Reply-To: <199711062246.OAA11335@crab.whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Doug Ambrisko wrote: ~~| I would like to know the quantum size of FreeBSD2.2.2. ~~ ~~I'm not sure when the change went in ... but it can be whatever you want ~~(just not 0). Default is 10ms. We change it to make FreeBSD run more ~~"batch-like". ~~ ~~% sysctl kern.quantum ~~kern.quantum: 10 ~~% Not in 2.2.2-RELEASE %(2_~): uname -a FreeBSD jandrese.async.vt.edu 2.2.2-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE #0: Fri Oct 10 17:00:31 EDT 1997 jandrese@jandrese.async.vt.edu:/usr/src/sys/compile/NESSUS i386 %(3_~): sysctl kern.quantum sysctl: Unknown oid 'kern.quantum' %1 (4_~): :::::::::::::::::::::::::::. . . . . ..:::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: Jason Andresen :. . . . . . . . . : Turbocharge your PC :: :: jandrese@vt.edu :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:: www.FreeBSD.org :: :.........................: Quote of the day :..........................: Alone, adj.: In bad company. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" :::::::::::.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.........................:.:.:.:.:.:.:.::::::::::: From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 17:44:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28888 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:44:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28879 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:44:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA13071; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:44:12 -0800 (PST) To: dk+@ua.net cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 17:00:17 PST." <199711070100.RAA27174@dog.farm.org> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 17:44:11 -0800 Message-ID: <13067.878867051@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Folks, please don't ask me for any extra little administrative tasks like this right now - I'm just not up for it. I'm willing to edit the ERRATA file under 2.2.5-RELEASE on wcarchive as things come up, and if someone out there would like to run a script or whatever to periodically generate announcements from it to -announce or -stable or whatever then that's great, just don't ask me to take it on as an extra task right now because I don't need any extra tasks, no matter now small. :-( Thanks. Jordan > In article <10984.878850331@time.cdrom.com> you wrote: > > Yes, and it also says explicitly that you should check back with it > > since it will be updated periodically. You need to do what it says, > > that's all. :-) > > > > list, for each release? I.e. 2.2.5-errata, and have any changes placed i n > > > the errata mailed to the list as well, so we dont have to check it every > > > No, please. I can't deal with yet another mailing list to have > > to make announcements to - there are enough on my checklist already. :) > > what about posting errata diffs to freebsd-announce every 2 weeks > or on every security bug, whatever comes first? > > -- > "What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy?" - Ursula LeGui n From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 18:11:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00713 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00700 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00455; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:35:00 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711070205.MAA00455@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Tony Overfield cc: John-Mark Gurney , Chuck Robey , Mike Smith , Terry Lambert , jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@freebsd.org, Jonathan Mini Subject: Re: >64MB In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 15:04:48 MDT." <3.0.3.32.19971106150448.006d5438@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 12:34:59 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My ambiguous question reworded would say... > > Once you are in the kernel startup code and running in protected mode, > why not simply switch back to real mode for BIOS calls and etc. instead > of trying to set up a VM86() facility? I think it's easier and much > better for compatibility while booting. The kernel is loaded above 1M, so you would have to be careful to make sure that your BIOS calls came out of the lowest 64K. That could be done with a dispatcher in locore.s though. The other reason is that I don't know how to make the change. 8) If I did, I'd certainly consider it, although vm86 has a few other uses that argue for using it just out of commonality. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 18:47:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02445 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:47:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02436 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA08722; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:44:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:44:20 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: dk+@ua.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-Reply-To: <13067.878867051@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Folks, please don't ask me for any extra little administrative tasks > like this right now - I'm just not up for it. I'm willing to edit the > ERRATA file under 2.2.5-RELEASE on wcarchive as things come up, and if > someone out there would like to run a script or whatever to > periodically generate announcements from it to -announce or -stable or > whatever then that's great, just don't ask me to take it on as an > extra task right now because I don't need any extra tasks, no matter > now small. :-( > > Thanks. I'm glad you didn't. With all the complaints we've had recently from the announce list about the ports update, doing what was suggested below would cause outaged screams. We don't need to be louder on our low volume lists. > > Jordan > > > In article <10984.878850331@time.cdrom.com> you wrote: > > > Yes, and it also says explicitly that you should check back with it > > > since it will be updated periodically. You need to do what it says, > > > that's all. :-) > > > > > > list, for each release? I.e. 2.2.5-errata, and have any changes placed i > n > > > > the errata mailed to the list as well, so we dont have to check it every > > > > > No, please. I can't deal with yet another mailing list to have > > > to make announcements to - there are enough on my checklist already. :) > > > > what about posting errata diffs to freebsd-announce every 2 weeks > > or on every security bug, whatever comes first? > > > > -- > > "What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy?" - Ursula LeGui > n > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 19:21:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04349 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:21:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dog.farm.org (gw-hssi-2.farm.org [209.66.103.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04335 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:20:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dog.farm.org!dk) Received: (from dk@localhost) by dog.farm.org (8.7.5/dk#3) id TAA29577; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:23:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971106192318.04591@dog.farm.org> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:23:18 -0800 From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk =?KOI8-R?B?5M3J1NLJyiDrz8jNwc7Ayw==?= To: Chuck Robey Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two Reply-To: dk+@ua.net References: <13067.878867051@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from "Chuck Robey" on Thu, Nov 06, 1997 at 08:44:20PM -0500 X-Class: Fast X-OS-Used: FreeBSD 2.2-960501-SNAP X-NIC-Handle: DK379 X-Pager-Email: dk@interpage.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Nov 06, 1997 at 08:44:20PM -0500, Chuck Robey wrote: > > Folks, please don't ask me for any extra little administrative tasks > > like this right now - I'm just not up for it. I'm willing to edit the > > ERRATA file under 2.2.5-RELEASE on wcarchive as things come up, and if [...] > I'm glad you didn't. With all the complaints we've had recently from the > announce list about the ports update, doing what was suggested below would > cause outaged screams. We don't need to be louder on our low volume > lists. Hm. I said 2 weeeks or on security bug. I suppose people who install FreeBSD do agree to receive such amount of mail. I can be wrong, of course ;-) Maybe some other sort of `important information' broadcasts can be developed. I just don't think `watch for errata on web page' is perfect. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 19:30:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04966 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:30:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from monk.via.net (monk.via.net [140.174.204.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04958 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:30:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe@via.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by monk.via.net (8.6.11/8.6.12) id TAA11526 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:20:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:20:38 -0800 From: Joe McGuckin Message-Id: <199711070320.TAA11526@monk.via.net> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Resolution of: 'sys' is consuming %50 of cpu X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk After replacing the 3COM 3C509 with an Intel Etherexpress 100/B card, system usage dropped from 75% to 30%. I've noticed something else: The load average hovers around 5-10. On the old machine (200Mhz MMX Pentium) is stayed pegged at 50. The 300Mhz Pentium II is supposed to be twice as fast as the 200Mhz MMX Pentium. I was expecting load values in the 25-30 range. This makes me think that there's some kernel resource that I was running out of - that once I hit that limit, the kernel would get bogged down. Joe From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 19:54:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06181 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06176 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:54:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id UAA12818 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:54:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA01559 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:58:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:58:57 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko Reply-To: Marc Slemko To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ufslk2 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a news server that likes making innd hang in ufslk2 for periods of up to 30 seconds every time a sync is done. Is there any easy way to find out what file system (or even file) it is blocking on while the sync is happening? Most are mounted async. I have increased kern.update from the default of 30 to something higher because it does give a performance gain. Unfortunately, it results in longer periods of hang when it happens. Decreasing it back to 30 results hurts the server overall, although it does obviously reduce the time taken to sync each time (and therefore the time innd hangs in ufslk2) a lot, but it still adds up to a similar number. Yes, mounting async hurts this too but has a better overall impact. Any work being done on having the system be nicer when syncing if it has a large amount of data to sync? This is on 2.2-stable from a few months ago. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 19:59:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06520 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:59:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06507 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:59:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA17124; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:58:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971106195834.34457@micron.mini.net> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:58:34 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Tony Overfield Cc: John-Mark Gurney , Chuck Robey , Mike Smith , Terry Lambert , jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: >64MB References: <199711061242.XAA00382@word.smith.net.au> <19971106094616.51849@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> <3.0.3.32.19971106150448.006d5438@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971106150448.006d5438@bugs.us.dell.com>; from Tony Overfield on Thu, Nov 06, 1997 at 03:04:48PM -0600 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tony Overfield stands accused of saying: > >yep... I've heard of this (they called it Un-real mode :) )... but > >basicly you set your registers to a 4gig limit instead of the 64k limit > >that they have normally... I've bounced your message, Mike, to a friend > >of mine (Jonathan Mini) who will be able to help with this... Oh. My queue : There's nothing Magical about 'Unreal mode' at all. All you do is pop yourself into protected mode real quick, and then do one of two things : 1) set the descriptor limits for all of your registers to the maximum value (2^32, or apx 4G) and then return to real mode. 2) create a vm86 TSS which contains a descriptor with a limit of > 1M, and a 1:1 page map against the real memory. Once you are back into real/vm86 mode (the difference doesn't matter), you simply address the data in the 'out of bounds' area by using the 32bit offset and index registers. There's nothing magical about it, I don't know why everyone acts like it's black voodoo magic. (This all reminds me of the magic around DOS TSRs in the really old days and then 'Mode X' (non chain-4 256c VGA modes) > Sorry for this useless diversion. It seems my question was ambiguous and > that Mike took it the other way. I recommend against using this "unreal" > mode trick. Why? > >he was quite surprised that we kept flipping between real and protected > >mode when he first saw the boot blocks... > > I wonder why. I don't see anything wrong with flipping into and out of > protected and real modes. After all, it needs to be done. No, it doesn't need to be done, and the boot blocks eat a serious performance loss doing it. > My ambiguous question reworded would say... > > Once you are in the kernel startup code and running in protected mode, > why not simply switch back to real mode for BIOS calls and etc. instead > of trying to set up a VM86() facility? I think it's easier and much > better for compatibility while booting. There are four reasons : 1) The memory which is in the 0x1000 - 0xa0000 (i.e. the 640k of 'conventional memory') is being used by the VM system. God only knows what's there. If we 'pop' back into real mode, we're going to have to reserve some of that. The 'reserved memory' could get quite big. For example, I have some code which uses VESA VBE 1.2 to dump a linear framebuffer to a video card, and it does this by dropping into a vm86 task with the majority of the first 1M mapped with the 600k framebuffer so that it can dump it. This is the only efficient way to do that, and if I had implmented some 'pop back to real mode' reoutine (which i didn't for later reasons) I would have had to reserve the entire first meg if real memory. As it is, I can jump mmap what I need and let the kernel handle alocting it out of the VM system, as it should be. 2) What happens if you're in real mode, and an IRQ is received? You can't loose that IRQ, and often BIOS services take a long time, so the possibility of receiving an IRQ while performing a BIOS service is extremely high. What you need to do is put in interrupt handlers for all IRQs in the real mode interrupt vector table, and then jump back into protected mode to handle the irq in the kernel, and then jump back into real mode to finish the BIOS action. This takes a _long_ _time_ and is generally evil. Half of the headache in DPMI is due to catching irqs and sending them the appropriate processor state. I should also mention that because of this, the entire performance gain of dropping to real mode was lost due to the time it took to drop to real mode, and the leave again. 3) You can't run multiple BIOS calls at once when dropping to real mode. In fact, you can't do _ANYTHING_ else once within real mode. If the BIOS decides to halt the system, you're hosed. There's not much you can do about it. On the other hand, a VM86 task would be given an exception 13 when the BIOS ran a hlt intruction. (I relise that the BIOS by nature is not re-entrant. However, there are several BIOS's we are dealing with. e.g, one on our video card, one on our SCSI card, etc. It is possible to make a call to the video BIOS while peforming a call to the SCSI BIOS with no problems.) 4) There are also no protection limits in real mode. If the code accidentally writes to the wrong section of memory, you could be eating ANYTHING, from another process's dataspace to a filesystem buffer that's waiting to be written to disk. This is a Bad Idea. It ruins the idea of a protected system. A vm86 kernel-thread (or set of threads) is a much better solution over dropping to real mode. Intel only intended Real Mode to be used on the i386+ to initialize the processor for Protected Mode. There are NO reasons to go back to real mode once you are in procected mode. That's why Intel created the vm86 task class. -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 23:15:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA15147 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA15131 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:14:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01443 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:41:02 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711070711.RAA01443@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:41:01 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, I'm stumped. Short of someone responsible to shoot, I could do with some help doing Evil x86 things. We all know why talking to the PnP BIOS would be a good thing. I don't think there's any disagreement there. Actually doing it is being a little more challenging. The spec says "It is assumed that the 16-Bit Protected Mode interface is sufficient for 32-Bit Protected Mode operating systems". Maybe. To cut a long story short; it is necessary to construct three segments (one 16-bit code, two 16-bit data), mapped as per the PnP connection information. Done, no problem. You call into the 16-bit segment to a given entrypoint. Done, no problem. The 16-bit segment wants to return to the caller. It executes an 'lret', popping a 16-bit IP and CS off the stack. Oops. If you have the kernel CS there, you can return to any address in the first 64k of the kernel segment. Unfortunately, that won't get you anywhere near the kernel text. As an alternative, I tried stealing a spare segment and arranging that to be based at the bottom of the kernel, so that the return would be into kernel text space, then pushing the kernel CS and IP of a suitable label onto the stack and lret'ing again to get back into the kernel. *this* tries to access memory at vaddr 0x81: /* biospnp(int offset, int segment, int junk, u_int16_t args[...]) */ ENTRY(biospnp) popl %ecx /* save return address */ movl %pnpret,%bx /* local return point */ mov %bx,(2*4)(%esp) lret pnpret: pushl $8 pushl %ecx lret The high half of (junk) comes in with the prepared selector for return in it. This *works* until the pnpret: label. Unfortunately, at that point it's not (yet) running on the kernel text selector, so ddb can't actually tell me what's going on. The stack looks OK (I never touch it), so I am somewhat stuffed as to what is going wrong. Any ideas? Any better ways of getting back into the kernel from 16-bit mode? mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 23:31:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA15763 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:31:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15758 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:31:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xTim9-0000pz-00; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:24:17 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:24:16 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Joe McGuckin cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Resolution of: 'sys' is consuming %50 of cpu In-Reply-To: <199711070320.TAA11526@monk.via.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Joe McGuckin wrote: > After replacing the 3COM 3C509 with an Intel Etherexpress 100/B card, > system usage dropped from 75% to 30%. > > I've noticed something else: The load average hovers around 5-10. On the old > machine (200Mhz MMX Pentium) is stayed pegged at 50. The 300Mhz Pentium II > is supposed to be twice as fast as the 200Mhz MMX Pentium. I was expecting > load values in the 25-30 range. > > This makes me think that there's some kernel resource that I was running out > of - that once I hit that limit, the kernel would get bogged down. Not necessarily. The vx driver isn't so great, and it uses programmed I/O. It is probably blocking too long while communicating with the card, driving up the sys time. During this time, no user processes are running, driving up the load average as many processes become runnable. The fxp driver uses DMA, so some card transactions can probably be handled without involving the CPU. > Joe Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Nov 6 23:51:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16738 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16731 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA15160; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:51:18 -0800 (PST) To: dk+@ua.net cc: Chuck Robey , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetAtalk doesn't work!? take two In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 19:23:18 PST." <19971106192318.04591@dog.farm.org> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 23:51:18 -0800 Message-ID: <15156.878889078@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Maybe some other sort of `important information' broadcasts > can be developed. I just don't think `watch for errata on web page' > is perfect. Well, I think that the key thing that's lacking here is simply a willingness on people's part to READ things, specifically the Newsflash section or the release notes or any of a number of other documents which refer to the ERRATA, a quick read of that then revealing the following text: This file contains post-release ERRATA for 2.2.5 and should always be considered the definitive place to look *first* before reporting a problem with this release. This file will also be periodically updated as new issues are reported so even if you've checked this file recently, check it again before filing a bug report. Which is about as self-explanatory as it's possible to get. Now there is also a level that one can try to attain, sort of Windows-like in direction, where the user is expected to be a complete idiot and every other dialog box says things like "Have you read the ERRATA?", "Are you *sure* you've read the ERRATA?", "Hey, while you're installing, how about reading the ERRATA just one more time?" but that would no longer be Unix and I haven't got the stamina to go to such extremes even if I wanted to. I'm afraid that people are simply going to have to learn how to read and all these suggestions for mechanisms which replace the need for that rather fundamental skill are rather missing the point. The ERRATA is already good enough as it is and if some users are missing it, despite already having numerous pointers to it (and quite clear instructions to *keep* looking at it), then those users have gotten unforgivably lazy and it's time for them to improve their habits. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 00:05:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17350 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:05:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17345 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:05:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA17422; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:04:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971107000430.02841@micron.mini.net> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:04:30 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <199711070711.RAA01443@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711070711.RAA01443@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 05:41:01PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What privelege level is this running at? Why not just execute an illegal instruction and catch it? (in my vm86 code, I use hlt for this all the time) Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > Ok, I'm stumped. Short of someone responsible to shoot, I could do > with some help doing Evil x86 things. > > We all know why talking to the PnP BIOS would be a good thing. I don't > think there's any disagreement there. > > Actually doing it is being a little more challenging. The spec says > "It is assumed that the 16-Bit Protected Mode interface is sufficient > for 32-Bit Protected Mode operating systems". Maybe. > > To cut a long story short; it is necessary to construct three segments > (one 16-bit code, two 16-bit data), mapped as per the PnP connection > information. Done, no problem. > > You call into the 16-bit segment to a given entrypoint. Done, no > problem. > > The 16-bit segment wants to return to the caller. It executes an > 'lret', popping a 16-bit IP and CS off the stack. > > Oops. If you have the kernel CS there, you can return to any address > in the first 64k of the kernel segment. Unfortunately, that won't get > you anywhere near the kernel text. > > As an alternative, I tried stealing a spare segment and arranging that to > be based at the bottom of the kernel, so that the return would be into > kernel text space, then pushing the kernel CS and IP of a suitable > label onto the stack and lret'ing again to get back into the kernel. > > *this* tries to access memory at vaddr 0x81: > > /* biospnp(int offset, int segment, int junk, u_int16_t args[...]) */ > > ENTRY(biospnp) > popl %ecx /* save return address */ > > movl %pnpret,%bx /* local return point */ > mov %bx,(2*4)(%esp) > > lret > > pnpret: pushl $8 > pushl %ecx > lret > > The high half of (junk) comes in with the prepared selector for return > in it. This *works* until the pnpret: label. Unfortunately, at that > point it's not (yet) running on the kernel text selector, so ddb can't > actually tell me what's going on. The stack looks OK (I never touch > it), so I am somewhat stuffed as to what is going wrong. > > Any ideas? Any better ways of getting back into the kernel from 16-bit > mode? > > mike -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 01:37:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA21678 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:37:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21665 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:37:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00302; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:03:06 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711070933.UAA00302@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jonathan Mini cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Nov 1997 00:04:30 -0800." <19971107000430.02841@micron.mini.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 20:03:05 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What privelege level is this running at? It has to run with DPL = 0. > Why not just execute an illegal instruction and catch it? Because this is in the kernel context, and I've no way of knowing how to say "just for now I want illegal instructions to come here". > (in my vm86 code, I use hlt for this all the time) Yes, that's what JL uses to kill execution after his interrupt thunk (which is working wonderfully BTW). mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 01:45:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA21968 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:45:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21962 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:45:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA18844; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:44:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971107014444.46046@micron.mini.net> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:44:44 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971107000430.02841@micron.mini.net> <199711070933.UAA00302@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711070933.UAA00302@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 08:03:05PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > What privelege level is this running at? > > It has to run with DPL = 0. Why? > > Why not just execute an illegal instruction and catch it? > > Because this is in the kernel context, and I've no way of knowing how > to say "just for now I want illegal instructions to come here". Although it seems less elegant, it seems to me that it really is the best solution to create threads for kernel-started processes for things like vm86/16-bit-protected-mode BIOS calls. What we need is an elegant way to fork a process to do something for the kernel. (an interesting concept when you think about it. Kind of a reverse syscall) > > (in my vm86 code, I use hlt for this all the time) > > Yes, that's what JL uses to kill execution after his interrupt thunk > (which is working wonderfully BTW). > > mike -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 01:49:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA22125 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from silent.darkening.com (nonxstnt@iskh122.haninge.kth.se [130.237.83.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA22117 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:49:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nonxstnt@darkening.com) Received: from localhost (nonxstnt@localhost) by silent.darkening.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13154 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:48:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nonxstnt@darkening.com) X-Authentication-Warning: silent.darkening.com: nonxstnt owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:48:06 +0100 (CET) From: Thomas Stromberg To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ipfw in syslog.conf? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id BAA22121 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk is it possible to give ipfw it's own identifier in syslog.conf? (or does it already?). I would like to have an ipfw.log, and not have all of the logs end up on console either. If it does not already exist, I think it would be a nice feature to add, for people like me who get 15000+ entries logged a day. --- thomas strömberg . system admin, royal institute of technology (stockholm) nobody@darkening.com . irc:nobody@EFnet . talk:nonxstnt@silent.darkening.com "the stupider one is, the clearer one thinks" -- Fyodor Dostoevsky From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 01:55:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA22360 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA22348 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:55:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: from gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.8.7/RBI-Z14) with ESMTP id KAA08123 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:55:12 +0100 (MET) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA27835 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:55:19 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:55:19 +0100 (MET) From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199711070955.KAA27835@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: root - can root do an asm("cli")? Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there a difference between what the kernel can do vs. what a root process can do with regard to priviliged instructions? In particular: can a root process do an asm("cli"); and thus block the whole system? I tried once under FreeBSD and got a bus error. May be the cause was a differnet one but when I got that bus error I thought: "Hmm, fine, so there is something running at a different ring which prevents root from doing such malign things" and was feeling safe. Now someone tells me, root can do everything and can even do that. -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 06:27:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01675 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:27:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from phoenix.its.rpi.edu (phoenix.its.rpi.edu [128.113.161.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01666 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:27:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu) Received: from localhost (dec@localhost) by phoenix.its.rpi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07866; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:27:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:27:22 -0500 (EST) From: "David E. Cross" To: Christoph Kukulies cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: root - can root do an asm("cli")? In-Reply-To: <199711070955.KAA27835@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > Is there a difference between what the kernel can do vs. what > a root process can do with regard to priviliged instructions? > > In particular: can a root process do an asm("cli"); and thus > block the whole system? I tried once under FreeBSD > and got a bus error. May be the cause was a differnet one but > when I got that bus error I thought: "Hmm, fine, so there > is something running at a different ring which prevents root > from doing such malign things" and was feeling safe. > > Now someone tells me, root can do everything and can even do > that. No, root cannot do 'everything'. 'root' is subject to the same rules that other processes are (it cannot access outside its memory bounds, it cannot take the processor, etc...). The difference is that 'root', (uid 0 actually), has access to certain Kernel calls (even the Kernel is bound to the memory protection, although the kernel can change the protection as it needs to), which allow it to do more, ie. root cannot access memory it doesn't own, but it has access to /dev/mem and /dev/kmem, which means it *could* access it indirectly. I hope that helps some. -- David Cross From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 06:56:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA02934 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:56:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from chaski.com (chaski-gate.orbis.net [205.164.72.31] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA02929 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:56:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@chaski.com) Received: (from mike@localhost) by chaski.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) id IAA14012 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:54:17 GMT From: michael dorin Message-Id: <199711070854.IAA14012@chaski.com> Subject: netiso To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:54:17 +0000 () X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What was the last release of FreeBSD that had the netiso/ccitt support in it? I do have an OSI network and I am interested in seeing what the software could do. -Mike Dorin www.cmise.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 08:17:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07539 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:17:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07532 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:17:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id IAA25249; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma025245; Fri Nov 7 08:16:35 1997 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA15014; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:16:35 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199711071616.IAA15014@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: ipfw in syslog.conf? In-Reply-To: from Thomas Stromberg at "Nov 7, 97 10:48:06 am" To: nonxstnt@darkening.com (Thomas Stromberg) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:16:35 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thomas Stromberg writes: > is it possible to give ipfw it's own identifier in syslog.conf? (or does > it already?). I would like to have an ipfw.log, and not have all of the > logs end up on console either. > > If it does not already exist, I think it would be a nice feature to add, > for people like me who get 15000+ entries logged a day. I'm pretty sure the current 2.2 code allows you to put this into /etc/syslog.conf: # Put all ipfw output into its own log file !ipfw *.* /var/log/ipfw If this doesn't work let me know and I'll try to recall what hacks we did to make it work :-) -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 08:22:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07990 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:22:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07970 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:22:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id IAA25307; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma025303; Fri Nov 7 08:21:44 1997 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA15074; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:21:44 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199711071621.IAA15074@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: Quantum size? In-Reply-To: from Jason Andresen at "Nov 6, 97 08:12:47 pm" To: jandrese@vt.edu (Jason Andresen) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:21:44 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jason Andresen writes: > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Doug Ambrisko wrote: > > ~~| I would like to know the quantum size of FreeBSD2.2.2. > ~~ > ~~I'm not sure when the change went in ... but it can be whatever you want > ~~(just not 0). Default is 10ms. We change it to make FreeBSD run more > ~~"batch-like". > ~~ > ~~% sysctl kern.quantum > ~~kern.quantum: 10 > ~~% > Not in 2.2.2-RELEASE > > %(2_~): uname -a > FreeBSD jandrese.async.vt.edu 2.2.2-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE #0: Fri > Oct 10 17:00:31 EDT 1997 > jandrese@jandrese.async.vt.edu:/usr/src/sys/compile/NESSUS i386 > %(3_~): sysctl kern.quantum > sysctl: Unknown oid 'kern.quantum' > %1 (4_~): It's in 2.2.5 but not 2.2.2: > RCS file: /cvs/freebsd/src/sys/kern/kern_synch.c,v > Working file: kern_synch.c > head: 1.39 > symbolic names: > RELENG_2_2_5_RELEASE: 1.26.2.4 > RELENG_2_2_2_RELEASE: 1.26.2.1 > > revision 1.26.2.2 > date: 1997/08/08 23:42:56; author: julian; state: Exp; lines: +26 -2 > MFC: match rev 1.33 > Reviewed by: john Dyson (dyson@freebsd.org) > Obtained from: Whistle Communications production build > > Make the scheduling quantum tunable.. > Useful for BATCH oriented systems (e.g. web servers and ftp servers etc) > that do not do interactive work. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 09:02:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09745 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:02:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from server.local.sunyit.edu (A-T34.rh.sunyit.edu [150.156.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09730 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:01:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu) Received: from localhost (perlsta@localhost) by server.local.sunyit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12661 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:06:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: server.local.sunyit.edu: perlsta owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:06:29 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein X-Sender: perlsta@server.local.sunyit.edu To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: P-II to PPro converter? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Someone on this list recently mentioned an adapter to use a PPro on a Slot 1 motherboard... does anyone have any pointers to this information? (Pentium II) .________________________________________________________________________ __ _ |Alfred Perlstein - Programming & SysAdmin --"Have you seen my FreeBSD tatoo?" |perlsta@sunyit.edu --"who was that masked admin?" |http://www.cs.sunyit.edu/~perlsta : ' From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 09:16:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10549 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:16:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trojanhorse.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10544 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by trojanhorse.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00189 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:16:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:16:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Inter outb() timing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If I do a: outb (0x300, 0x00); outb (0x300, 0xff); outb (0x300, 0x00); How long should 0xff appear at that address? From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 09:22:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10916 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:22:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10907 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:22:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA26923 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:12:52 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199711071512.QAA26923@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: where is xman ??? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:12:52 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Unless I am doing something wrong, I am unable to find xman -- and perhaps some other programs are missing -- in the XF86331 binaries compiled for 2.2.5 Did I forget to download some package, or what ? Cheers Luigi From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 09:59:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13079 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:59:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13068 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:59:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id RAA27137; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:48:08 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199711071648.RAA27137@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: Inter outb() timing To: jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org (Jamil J. Weatherbee) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:48:07 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jamil J. Weatherbee" at Nov 7, 97 09:16:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If I do a: > > outb (0x300, 0x00); > outb (0x300, 0xff); > outb (0x300, 0x00); > > How long should 0xff appear at that address? assuming that: - your process is not pre-empted in the middle of the sequence; - you don't get a page fault before the last instruction; - your processor is fast enough that reading the next instruction does not cause stalls (yes there are still 386sx-16 serving us...) ; then probably the time depends on the configuration of the ISA bus on your machine (clock, wait states), and you might observe a time in the 200..800ns range. Cheers Luigi From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 10:00:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13247 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:00:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13242 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20664; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:00:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:00:27 -0500 (EST) From: Snob Art Genre To: Marc Slemko cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ufslk2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Check out lsof -- I think it's in the ports collection. It can tell you what files are open and who is accessing them. On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Marc Slemko wrote: > I have a news server that likes making innd hang in ufslk2 for periods of > up to 30 seconds every time a sync is done. > > Is there any easy way to find out what file system (or even file) it is > blocking on while the sync is happening? > > Most are mounted async. I have increased kern.update from the default of > 30 to something higher because it does give a performance gain. > Unfortunately, it results in longer periods of hang when it happens. > Decreasing it back to 30 results hurts the server overall, although it > does obviously reduce the time taken to sync each time (and therefore the > time innd hangs in ufslk2) a lot, but it still adds up to a similar > number. Yes, mounting async hurts this too but has a better overall > impact. > > Any work being done on having the system be nicer when syncing if it has a > large amount of data to sync? > > This is on 2.2-stable from a few months ago. > > > Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 10:25:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14621 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:25:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14401 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id RAA27076; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:31:27 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199711071631.RAA27076@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Are these SCSI cards supported ? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:31:27 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a couple of ISA SCSI cards around which I am wondering if have support in FreeBSD. the first one is a PnP board coming with an HP ScanJet5p -- it's labeled something like Symbios 53C416 and its PnP ID is SLI4161 Apparently it does not use DMA, and from the name I thought it was compatible with the driver in ncr5380.c -- unfortunately the probe seems not to recognize it. The other one is a bit older, came with a Philips CD-R, and it is labeled Advansys ABP 5140-42 -- the main chip is marked ASC1090-B. The card has four dip switches accessible from the rear panel, next to the small external scsi connector. Any suggestions ? Luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 10:44:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15688 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:44:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from phoenix.its.rpi.edu (phoenix.its.rpi.edu [128.113.161.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15683 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:44:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu) Received: from localhost (dec@localhost) by phoenix.its.rpi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08273; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:38:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:38:12 -0500 (EST) From: "David E. Cross" To: Luigi Rizzo cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where is xman ??? In-Reply-To: <199711071512.QAA26923@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > Unless I am doing something wrong, I am unable to find xman -- and > perhaps some other programs are missing -- in the XF86331 binaries > compiled for 2.2.5 > > Did I forget to download some package, or what ? I noticed this too... none of the supported 'contrib' packages are built (xman, xmessage, xcalc, xload, xgc, xfont-sel). I got the Xcontrib source and built them myself... a tiny bit annoying From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 10:50:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16180 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:50:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16175 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:50:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08227 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:41:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd008221; Fri Nov 7 18:41:11 1997 Message-ID: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:39:24 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. try the following c program. unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; main () { void (*f)(void) = x; f(); } We've checked: K5... OK P6... OK P5... *SPLAT* no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. K6? other pentium variants? versions? this one DEFINITLY dies: CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 Features=0x1bf share and enjoy.. julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 11:49:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19023 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from fog.XiG.com (drang.xig.com [199.164.187.36] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19015 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:48:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@XiG.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by fog.XiG.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) id MAA07791; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:48:34 -0700 (MST) X-Authentication-Warning: fog.XiG.com: smap set sender to using -f Received: from devserve.xig.com(192.168.208.222) by fog.XiG.com via smap (V1.3) id sma007783; Fri Nov 7 12:48:26 1997 Received: from landru.xig.com (landru.XiG.com [192.168.208.210]) by devserve.xig.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA25314; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:48:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost.xig.com [127.0.0.1]) by landru.xig.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05345; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:40:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:40:55 -0700 (MST) From: Jon Trulson Reply-To: jon@XiG.com To: Julian Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:39:24 -0800 > From: Julian Elischer > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > > > main () > { > void (*f)(void) = x; > f(); > } > Ouch. Kills every p5 (in user mode no-less) I've tried it on... -- Jon Trulson work: mailto:jon@xig.com, home: mailto:jon@radscan.com Xi Graphics, http://www.xig.com ID: 1A9A2B09, FP: C23F328A721264E7 B6188192EC733962 PGP keys at finger:trulson@shell.rmi.net or http://home.rmi.net/~jon #include FREE MARS! From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 11:50:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19121 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:50:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from phoenix.its.rpi.edu (phoenix.its.rpi.edu [128.113.161.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19113 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:50:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu) Received: from localhost (dec@localhost) by phoenix.its.rpi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10286; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:49:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:49:55 -0500 (EST) From: "David E. Cross" To: Julian Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. > > > > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > > > main () > { > void (*f)(void) = x; > f(); > } > > > > > We've checked: > K5... OK > P6... OK > P5... *SPLAT* > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? > > other pentium variants? > versions? > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > Features=0x1bf > CPU: Pentium (132.96-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 Features=0x1bf Just tested OK for me (no crash) -- David Cross From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:11:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20147 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:11:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from arthur.cs.purdue.edu (0@arthur.cs.purdue.edu [128.10.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20142 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:11:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpm@cs.purdue.edu) Received: from ector.cs.purdue.edu (623@ector.cs.purdue.edu [128.10.2.10]) by arthur.cs.purdue.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/PURDUE_CS-2.0) with ESMTP id PAA15068 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dpm@localhost) by ector.cs.purdue.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/PURDUE_CS-2.0) id PAA15311 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:10:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:10:59 -0500 (EST) From: David Moffett Message-Id: <199711072010.PAA15311@ector.cs.purdue.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Free TokenRing Cards Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi guys! I've got two Token Ring cards free to anyone who would like to start in on writing a token ring driver for FreeBSD. I'll mail them free to anyone in the USA. Card 1: 3Com TokenLink III 16/4 (c) 1995 EA=00A0248223C5, SN 6BE18223C5 w/ db 9 and rj45 Card 2: Intel w db/9 and rj45 Here's what is written on the back: M-NO: 770400501 S/N 727F16 ECO A **308314-003 16360614414** This card has an apparent ROM socket. The big parts on the front of this card are TMS380C16PQL and MB620233. Both have early 1994 date codes. Both of these cards are removed from equipment and were working at that time. Each has a 16/4 green sticker on the card edge. Each card is a 16-bit ISA card. There are obviously no warranties expressed or implied. These do *not* come with cables or other related network equipment. I've no other token equipment or related experience, so I'm zero help otherwise. Terms and Conditions: If you accept these cards you agree to write a device driver for Token Ring Networks than can be distributed under the FreeBSD license agreement. You agree to coordinate the development of such a device driver with the established FreeBSD development community. If you find that you cannot accomplish said task within a reasonable time, you agree to forward these cards to someone who you believe thinks that they can at your expense. email me if you're interested with some vague statement of qualifications. If there are multiple respondents, I get to choose who gets them. Thanks in advance! David Moffett (dpm@cs.purdue.edu) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:21:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20758 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:21:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20749 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:21:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA10090 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:21:08 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA03629; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:16:36 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971107211636.RD30963@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:16:36 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: root - can root do an asm("cli")? References: <199711070955.KAA27835@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711070955.KAA27835@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>; from Christoph Kukulies on Nov 7, 1997 10:55:19 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph Kukulies wrote: > Is there a difference between what the kernel can do vs. what > a root process can do with regard to priviliged instructions? Sure. > In particular: can a root process do an asm("cli"); and thus > block the whole system? Only by opening /dev/io. > Now someone tells me, root can do everything and can even do > that. Root always can do everything, by one or the other method. If you leave out the /dev/io security hole, well, write an LKM and load it, and voila!, it'll be part of the kernel. Things are different in FreeBSD iff securelevel > 0. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:25:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20951 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:25:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com [206.14.52.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20935 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:24:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jas@flyingfox.com) Received: (from jas@localhost) by biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25720; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:24:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:24:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Shankland Message-Id: <199711072024.MAA25720@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yow! An old 66 MHz Pentium with the old floating-point bug (remember that one?): * sayonara * An almost new 166 MHz Pentium MMX: * adios * If this is really the processor halting in its tracks (as opposed to, say, FreeBSD failing to handle some weird kind of trap), then this may cost Intel some real money to fix. Compared with the aforementioned floating-point bug, this seems like a much bigger deal. Jim Shankland Flying Fox Computer Systems, Inc. > Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:39:24 -0800 > From: Julian Elischer > Organization: Whistle Communications > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. > > > > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > > > main () > { > void (*f)(void) = x; > f(); > } > > > > > We've checked: > K5... OK > P6... OK > P5... *SPLAT* > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? > > other pentium variants? > versions? > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > Features=0x1bf > > > share and enjoy.. > > julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:25:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21026 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:25:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from pds-gateway.pdspc.com ([207.170.17.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21021 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:25:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khanson@pdspc.com) Received: by pds-gateway.pdspc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:26:03 -0600 Message-ID: <91DD7FDA88E4D011BED00000C0DD87E7124C6E@pds-gateway.pdspc.com> From: Kenny Hanson To: "FreeBSD Hackers (E-mail)" Subject: FW: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:26:02 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenny Hanson > Sent: Friday, November 07, 1997 2:24 PM > To: 'Julian Elischer' > Subject: RE: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > > Yessir.... this one screeched to a halt... hehehe > > CPU: Pentium (89.81-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x524 Stepping=4 > Features=0x1bf > > Trying a 233MMX as soon as I got the compiler installed... > > Kenny > > -----Original Message----- > From: Julian Elischer [SMTP:julian@whistle.com] > Sent: Friday, November 07, 1997 12:39 PM > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. > > > > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > > > main () > { > void (*f)(void) = x; > f(); > } > > > > > We've checked: > K5... OK > P6... OK > P5... *SPLAT* > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? > > other pentium variants? > versions? > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > Features=0x1bf > > > share and enjoy.. > > julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:27:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21101 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:27:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21092 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:27:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nash@Jupiter.Mcs.Net) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (nash@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id OAA03292; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:27:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (nash@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.7/8.8.2) with SMTP id OAA08353; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:27:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:27:14 -0600 (CST) From: Alex Nash To: Julian Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. I (well, gcc) had a few syntactical problems with your program. Here's a fixed version: unsigned char x[] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; main () { void (*f)(void) = (void (*)())x; f(); } > We've checked: > K5... OK > P6... OK > P5... *SPLAT* > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? > > other pentium variants? > versions? Also crashes: CPU: Pentium (166.59-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 Features=0x1bf Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:33:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21545 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:33:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (pNFsR72Si/bJAxcaHbCFi6Qre94JTKX/@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21539 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak67.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.33.67] ([JUVFai/e+YLygGJZWFLJJO7WCN3fQb0L]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xTv6b-0003UD-00; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:34:14 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak67.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xTv5n-0007fv-00; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:33:23 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:33:23 +0000 In-Reply-To: Julian Elischer "Newest Pentium bug (fatal)" (Nov 7, 10:39am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Julian Elischer , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 7, 10:39am, Julian Elischer wrote: } Subject: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. Just tried the program under NT, no difference (as expected). Control Panel/System/General tells me that this machine is x86 Family 5 Model 2 Stepping 12, it makes no mention of it being a GenuineIntel but I presume it is. Niall From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:40:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21843 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:40:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from thunderdome.plutotech.com (root@thunderdome.plutotech.com [206.168.67.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21838 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:40:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@panzer.plutotech.com) Received: from panzer.plutotech.com (ken@panzer.plutotech.com [206.168.67.125]) by thunderdome.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05879; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:39:48 -0700 (MST) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA09839; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:39:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711072039.NAA09839@panzer.plutotech.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Nov 7, 97 10:39:24 am" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:39:45 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Kenneth Merry X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28s (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Elischer wrote... > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; ^^^^ Shouldn't that be 0xf0? > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? > > other pentium variants? > versions? > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > Features=0x1bf This one blows up: CPU: Pentium (132.17-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52b Stepping=11 Features=0x1bf I tried it on a 486 and a P6, both worked okay. This could definitely be a problem for people running shell servers, etc., on Pentium boxes. Is there any way to work around it in software? Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@plutotech.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:41:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21913 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:41:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21908 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:41:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@Kithrup.COM) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id MAA05816; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:41:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:41:49 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199711072041.MAA05816@kithrup.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > This disassembled into a "lock cmpxchg8b %eax", according to gdb. I sent a note to Robert Collins, who is the x86.org guy who pops up in the news periodically when Intel tries to hassle him. He says: Actually, I've known about it for a few months. I verified it back then. It's a real bug. The bug occurs when you do two illegal things at once: 1) use the invalid opcode cmpxchg8b EAX 2) put a lock prefix on a non-read/modify/write instruction. Both conditions are already illegal. However instead of generating an invalid opcode exception, the processor locks up. Based on a later message on the list I just saw, it looks like Intel cleared this up in newer versions of the processor. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:43:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22037 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22018 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:43:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id NAA27179; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:43:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06308; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:44:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:44:09 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Snob Art Genre cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ufslk2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Snob Art Genre wrote: > Check out lsof -- I think it's in the ports collection. It can tell you > what files are open and who is accessing them. I know what files are open, but that doesn't help me tell what it is trying to access while blocking. innd has at least one file open on every partition. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 12:44:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22195 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:44:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from pds-gateway.pdspc.com ([207.170.17.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22179 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:44:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khanson@pdspc.com) Received: by pds-gateway.pdspc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:45:01 -0600 Message-ID: <91DD7FDA88E4D011BED00000C0DD87E7124C6F@pds-gateway.pdspc.com> From: Kenny Hanson To: "FreeBSD Hackers (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:45:00 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is kind of sick, but I compiled this code on a 233MMX under Win95 (I don't have a FBSD box running with a 233) and sure enough! Locked solid!!! Hmmm.... > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Trulson [SMTP:jon@XiG.com] > Sent: Friday, November 07, 1997 1:41 PM > To: Julian Elischer > Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > > > > > > > > > > > CPU: Pentium (89.81-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x524 Stepping=4 > Features=0x1bfOn Fri, 7 Nov 1997, > Julian Elischer wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:39:24 -0800 > > From: Julian Elischer > > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > > > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > > > try the following c program. > > > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > > > > > > main () > > { > > void (*f)(void) = x; > > f(); > > } > > > > Ouch. Kills every p5 (in user mode no-less) I've tried it on... > > -- > Jon Trulson work: mailto:jon@xig.com, home: mailto:jon@radscan.com > Xi Graphics, http://www.xig.com > ID: 1A9A2B09, FP: C23F328A721264E7 B6188192EC733962 > PGP keys at finger:trulson@shell.rmi.net or http://home.rmi.net/~jon > #include > FREE MARS! > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 13:00:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23122 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:00:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23112 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:00:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01883; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd001865; Fri Nov 7 12:51:04 1997 Message-ID: <34637ECC.59E2B600@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 12:49:16 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kenneth Merry CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711072039.NAA09839@panzer.plutotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kenneth Merry wrote: > > Julian Elischer wrote... > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > > > try the following c program. > > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > ^^^^ > > Shouldn't that be 0xf0? > > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > > K6? > > > > other pentium variants? > > versions? > > > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > > Features=0x1bf > > This one blows up: > > CPU: Pentium (132.17-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52b Stepping=11 > Features=0x1bf > > I tried it on a 486 and a P6, both worked okay. > > This could definitely be a problem for people running shell > servers, etc., on Pentium boxes. Is there any way to work around it in > software? no.. > > Ken > -- > Kenneth Merry > ken@plutotech.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 13:00:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23150 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:00:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from pds-gateway.pdspc.com ([207.170.17.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23134 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:00:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khanson@pdspc.com) Received: by pds-gateway.pdspc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:01:00 -0600 Message-ID: <91DD7FDA88E4D011BED00000C0DD87E7124C71@pds-gateway.pdspc.com> From: Kenny Hanson To: "FreeBSD Hackers (E-mail)" Subject: FW: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:00:58 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenny Hanson > Sent: Friday, November 07, 1997 3:00 PM > To: 'Jim Shankland' > Subject: RE: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > > This also locks up Win95 OSR2.1 233MMX! Testing NT4.0 right now with > PII 300 :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Shankland [SMTP:jas@flyingfox.com] > Sent: Friday, November 07, 1997 2:24 PM > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; julian@whistle.com > Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > > Yow! > > An old 66 MHz Pentium with the old floating-point bug (remember that > one?): > * sayonara * > > An almost new 166 MHz Pentium MMX: > * adios * > > If this is really the processor halting in its tracks (as opposed to, > say, FreeBSD failing to handle some weird kind of trap), then this > may cost Intel some real money to fix. Compared with the > aforementioned > floating-point bug, this seems like a much bigger deal. > > Jim Shankland > Flying Fox Computer Systems, Inc. > > > Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:39:24 -0800 > > From: Julian Elischer > > Organization: Whistle Communications > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > > > try the following c program. > > > > > > > > > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > > > > > > main () > > { > > void (*f)(void) = x; > > f(); > > } > > > > > > > > > > We've checked: > > K5... OK > > P6... OK > > P5... *SPLAT* > > > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > > K6? > > > > other pentium variants? > > versions? > > > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > > Features=0x1bf > > > > > > share and enjoy.. > > > > julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 13:04:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23412 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:04:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from lucifer.guardian.no (gate.guardian.no [195.1.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23373 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:03:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from finnag@guardian.no) Received: (qmail 24162 invoked by uid 21574); 7 Nov 1997 21:03:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:03:48 +0100 (MET) From: Finn Arne Gangstad To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > main () > { > void (*f)(void) = x; > f(); > } EEk - don't try this on a compaq armada 1510 - no hard reset button (that i can find) and power button is also soft power - so now I have to wait for the battery to go empty on me.. objdump --disassemble-all --show-raw-insn pentiumcrash.o Disassembly of section .data: 00000000 f0 0f c7 c8 lock cmpxchg8b %eax Bleh - illegal address mode but why oh why does it have to hang :( - Finn Arne From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 13:25:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24570 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:25:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24435 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:23:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id UAA27445; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:20:10 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199711071920.UAA27445@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:20:09 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Nov 7, 97 10:39:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 just curious -- how did you find that ? Luigi From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 13:43:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26134 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:43:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26128 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:43:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA01982; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:42:59 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:42:59 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711072041.MAA05816@kithrup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Based on a later message on the list I just saw, it looks like Intel cleared > this up in newer versions of the processor. I assume you mean p6 and pentium II, since my new boards with: Nov 7 17:11:05 one kernel: Intel MultiProcessor Specification v1.1 Nov 7 17:11:05 one kernel: Virtual Wire compatibility mode. Nov 7 17:11:05 one kernel: OEM ID: OEM00000 Product ID: PROD00000000 APIC at: 0xFEE00000 Nov 7 17:11:05 one kernel: Processor #0 Pentium(tm) APIC version 17 Nov 7 17:11:05 one kernel: Processor #1 Pentium(tm) APIC version 17 on linux will lock up. But my freebsd box with a cyrix p200 gets an illegal instruction trap. ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 13:56:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26764 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:56:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from cdsserver.creativedesign.com (host66.creativedesign.com [207.135.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26757 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:56:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jng@creativedesign.com) Received: by host66.creativedesign.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:55:33 -0800 Message-ID: <81EA05D65B95CF11822500A0243D54040103CA@host66.creativedesign.com> From: Jonathan Ng To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "'Julian Elischer'" Subject: RE: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) -- exception handling problem? Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:55:31 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've used the same 133MHz Pentium chip to run the experiment. Under both FreeBSD and Linux, the system halted immediately. However, under VxWorks, the system stopped the program due to an exception fault indicating invalid opcode. We probably need to look at the exception handling before pointing it to the chip. - Jonathan Ng > ---------- > From: Julian Elischer[SMTP:julian@whistle.com] > Sent: Friday, November 07, 1997 10:39 AM > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. > > > > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > > > main () > { > void (*f)(void) = x; > f(); > } > > > > > We've checked: > K5... OK > P6... OK > P5... *SPLAT* > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? > > other pentium variants? > versions? > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > Features=0x1bf > > > share and enjoy.. > > julian > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 13:58:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26870 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:58:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from silic.one.sci.fi (silic.one.sci.fi [195.74.8.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26849 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:58:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anttik@silic.one.sci.fi) Received: (from anttik@localhost) by silic.one.sci.fi (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA06127; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:58:23 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from anttik) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> From: Antti Kaipila Date: 07 Nov 1997 23:58:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: Julian Elischer's message of Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:39:24 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.16 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Elischer writes: > other pentium variants? > versions? Just tested with Cyrix 6x86 P 200+ and Windows 95, no crash. Nor with my K5 PR-166 FreeBSD box. --> Intel is evil, support AMD :-) -- Antti Kaipila From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 14:05:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27213 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:05:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27208 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:05:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24347 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:05:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id QAA21635; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:04:54 -0600 Message-ID: <19971107160453.60608@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:04:53 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Pentium crash bug Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This one also crashes. Note that it is a stepping 12. CPU: Pentium (132.63-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 Features=0x1bf I have a Sequent with 16-way P5's sitting in a corner. I guess that it probably isn't a good idea to run the code on this machine, is it? :-) -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 14:08:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27318 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:08:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from www2.shoppersnet.com (shoppersnet.com [204.156.152.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27311 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:08:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from digital@www2.shoppersnet.com) Received: (from digital@localhost) by www2.shoppersnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA09037; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:10:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:10:26 -0800 (PST) From: Howard Lew To: Julian Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. > > > > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xfo, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > > > main () > { > void (*f)(void) = x; > f(); > } > > > > > We've checked: > K5... OK > P6... OK > P5... *SPLAT* > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? > > other pentium variants? > versions? On a Cyrix 6x86MX, it just dumps core: Illegal instruction (core dumped) > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > Features=0x1bf > > > share and enjoy.. > julian > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 14:15:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27652 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:15:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27646 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys.etinc.com (dbsys.etinc.com [204.141.95.138]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA25431; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:17:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971107171620.00adfbf0@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:16:25 -0500 To: David Moffett , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: dennis Subject: Re: Free TokenRing Cards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 03:10 PM 11/7/97 -0500, David Moffett wrote: > >Hi guys! > >I've got two Token Ring cards free to anyone who would like to >start in on writing a token ring driver for FreeBSD. I'll >mail them free to anyone in the USA. > >Card 1: 3Com TokenLink III 16/4 (c) 1995 > EA=00A0248223C5, SN 6BE18223C5 > w/ db 9 and rj45 > >Card 2: Intel > w db/9 and rj45 > Here's what is written on the back: > M-NO: 770400501 S/N 727F16 ECO A > **308314-003 16360614414** > This card has an apparent ROM socket. > The big parts on the front of this card are > TMS380C16PQL and MB620233. Both have early 1994 date > codes. I'll offer the same deal with a Waring Blender :-) Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 14:23:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28053 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:23:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.5.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28048 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23346; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:22:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd023340; Fri Nov 7 15:22:49 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17815; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:22:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711072222.PAA17815@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu (David E. Cross) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:22:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "David E. Cross" at Nov 7, 97 02:49:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > CPU: Pentium (132.96-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 > Features=0x1bf > > Just tested OK for me (no crash) An "Id = 0x52b Stepping=12" was reported as crashing. This looks like the break-point. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 14:37:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28898 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:37:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from thought.calbbs.com (thought.calbbs.com [207.71.213.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28887 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:37:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@wasteland.calbbs.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thought.calbbs.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA27146 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:37:07 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:37:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@thought.calbbs.com To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > We've checked: > K5... OK > P6... OK > P5... *SPLAT* > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? > > other pentium variants? > versions? > I just checked a Cyrix 6x86L 200+. The processor correctly signals an illegal instruction. -- Brian Buchanan brian@wasteland.calbbs.com "So now I'm an undemocratic, elitist `privacy extremist,' eh? Just like Thomas Jefferson? What's next? I'm presumed a terrorist until I turn over my encryption keys?" If privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have privacy. Million Microbe March: Small is Beautiful. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 15:16:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00849 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:16:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from plaut.de (ns.plaut.de [194.39.177.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00832 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:16:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from afuchs@totum.plaut.de) Received: from totum.plaut.de (totum.plaut.de [194.39.177.9]) by plaut.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA00624; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:16:10 +0100 Received: from localhost (afuchs@localhost) by totum.plaut.de (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07176; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:16:12 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:16:11 +0100 (MET) From: alex fuchsstadt To: Julian Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, tried it on: CPU: Pentium (200.39-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 Features=0x1bf ==>crashed immediately 0x52c seems to be no 'breakpoint'! Bye, Alex Alexander Fuchsstadt -------------------- R/3-Basis Plaut Software GmbH From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 15:48:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02309 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:48:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02303 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0xTy8l-0002Ke-00; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:48:39 -0700 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.7/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA08767; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:48:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711072348.QAA08767@harmony.village.org> To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Cc: dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu (David E. Cross), julian@whistle.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Nov 1997 22:22:47 GMT." <199711072222.PAA17815@usr06.primenet.com> References: <199711072222.PAA17815@usr06.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:48:45 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199711072222.PAA17815@usr06.primenet.com> Terry Lambert writes: : > CPU: Pentium (132.96-MHz 586-class CPU) : > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 : > Features=0x1bf : : An "Id = 0x52b Stepping=12" was reported as crashing. This looks like : the break-point. I have the following that just crashed for me on my libretto: CPU: Pentium (74.98-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0xf2c Stepping=12 Features=0x1bf This is running -current as of Nov 6 (with a userland of approx Nov 3). Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 15:53:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02531 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02516; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:53:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA12594; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:53:20 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA04185; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:41:18 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971108004118.UL14152@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:41:18 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo), dawes@physics.usyd.edu.au (David Dawes), rich@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where is xman ??? References: <199711071512.QAA26923@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711071512.QAA26923@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>; from Luigi Rizzo on Nov 7, 1997 16:12:52 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > Unless I am doing something wrong, I am unable to find xman -- and > perhaps some other programs are missing -- in the XF86331 binaries > compiled for 2.2.5 It seems to be missing from recent XFree86 releases. It was supposed to be built separately (it's not in the xc/ subtree, but in contrib/). (Cc to David Dawes and Rich Murphy) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 16:09:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03189 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:09:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03179 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberte@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.8.5/8.8.4) id BAA00399; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:09:03 +0100 (MEZ) From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199711080009.BAA00399@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: from "David E. Cross" at "Nov 7, 97 02:49:55 pm" To: dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu (David E. Cross) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:09:03 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It was David E. Cross who wrote: > On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. [...] > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > > Features=0x1bf > > > > CPU: Pentium (132.96-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 > Features=0x1bf > > Just tested OK for me (no crash) Just tested: CPU: Pentium (133.64-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 Features=0x1bf It crashes (just lost my most recent mailbox, though I had synced!). This is 2.2.2-RELEASE. I also tested DOS-6.2 w/ TurboC-2.0 in 8088/8086-model it still reacts on Numlock and Ctrl-Alt-Del. in 80186/80286-mode it crashes too. Robert -- Robert Eckardt \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm) RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\ What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm) http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 16:30:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04200 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:30:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04194 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:30:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08055; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd008053; Fri Nov 7 16:22:24 1997 Message-ID: <3463B053.2781E494@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:20:35 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Eckardt CC: "David E. Cross" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711080009.BAA00399@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robert Eckardt wrote: > > It was David E. Cross who wrote: > > On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > > > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > > > > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > > > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > [...] > > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > > > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > > > Features=0x1bf > > > > > > > CPU: Pentium (132.96-MHz 586-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 > > Features=0x1bf > > > > Just tested OK for me (no crash) > > Just tested: > CPU: Pentium (133.64-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 > Features=0x1bf > > It crashes (just lost my most recent mailbox, though I had synced!). > This is 2.2.2-RELEASE. > > I also tested DOS-6.2 w/ TurboC-2.0 > in 8088/8086-model it still reacts on Numlock and Ctrl-Alt-Del. > in 80186/80286-mode it crashes too. in 8086 mode, does adding a '0xc3' on the end of the sequence make any difference? From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 16:36:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04591 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:36:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com [206.14.52.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04584 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:36:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jas@flyingfox.com) Received: (from jas@localhost) by biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28594; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:35:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:35:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Shankland Message-Id: <199711080035.QAA28594@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> To: afuchs@totum.plaut.de, julian@whistle.com Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know if Intel has responded to this problem? Sorry to be repeating myself, but to my mind this is a far more severe bug than the obscure floating point bug several years ago that knocked billions off Intel's market cap. If they did, in fact, quietly fix the bug at some stepping without telling anyone, that would appear to be a return to the modus operandi that they so publicly abandoned after the FP brouhaha. Jim Shankland Flying Fox Computer Systems, Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 16:41:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04865 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04859; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:41:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00419; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:40:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711080040.QAA00419@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo), dawes@physics.usyd.edu.au (David Dawes), rich@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where is xman ??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 00:41:18 +0100." <19971108004118.UL14152@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:40:42 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am pretty happy with tkman so far 8) "The latest version of TkMan is always available by anonymous FTP at ftp.cs.Berkeley.EDU in the /ucb/people/phelps/tcltk directory. " It is probably what xman should have been all along . Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 16:47:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05228 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:47:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05189 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:46:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.1/nospam) with UUCP id BAA15309 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:46:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-2.12/nospam) id BAA01354; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:36:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971108013652.04445@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:36:52 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com>; from Julian Elischer on Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 10:39:24AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3780 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Julian Elischer: > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? 210 [1:35] roberto@keltia:/tmp> ./bug Illegal instruction (core dumped) FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #46: Sun Nov 2 16:51:01 CET 1997 root@keltia.freenix.fr:/src/src/sys/compile/NKELTIA CPU: AMD-K6tm w/ multimedia extensions (208.82-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x561 Stepping=1 Features=0x8001bf -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #46: Sun Nov 2 16:51:01 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 16:50:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05396 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:50:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05390 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:50:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08802; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd008800; Fri Nov 7 16:49:27 1997 Message-ID: <3463B6AA.446B9B3D@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:47:38 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Shankland CC: afuchs@totum.plaut.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711080035.QAA28594@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jim Shankland wrote: > > Does anyone know if Intel has responded to this problem? Sorry to > be repeating myself, but to my mind this is a far more severe bug > than the obscure floating point bug several years ago that knocked > billions off Intel's market cap. If they did, in fact, quietly fix > the bug at some stepping without telling anyone, that would appear to > be a return to the modus operandi that they so publicly abandoned > after the FP brouhaha. > > Jim Shankland > Flying Fox Computer Systems, Inc. cnet have just reported the bug.. they said that intel said "no comment" From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 16:54:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05632 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:54:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from plaut.de (ns.plaut.de [194.39.177.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05624 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:54:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from afuchs@totum.plaut.de) Received: from totum.plaut.de (totum.plaut.de [194.39.177.9]) by plaut.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA00763; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:54:28 +0100 Received: from localhost (afuchs@localhost) by totum.plaut.de (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA07327; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:54:29 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:54:29 +0100 (MET) From: alex fuchsstadt To: Jim Shankland cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711080035.QAA28594@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Jim Shankland wrote: > Does anyone know if Intel has responded to this problem? Sorry to > be repeating myself, but to my mind this is a far more severe bug > than the obscure floating point bug several years ago that knocked > billions off Intel's market cap. If they did, in fact, quietly fix > the bug at some stepping without telling anyone, that would appear to > be a return to the modus operandi that they so publicly abandoned > after the FP brouhaha. > > Jim Shankland > Flying Fox Computer Systems, Inc. > Apropos Intel, what about the FreeBSD Alpha-stuff? Time to change...? Alexander Fuchsstadt -------------------- R/3-Basis Plaut Software GmbH From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 17:04:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06058 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:04:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06052 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:04:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00593 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:04:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711080104.RAA00593@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Seagate Cheetah performance... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:04:50 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Any tweaking that I do to improve the performance of my : type 0 fixed SCSI 2 iozone 48 IOZONE: Performance Test of Sequential File I/O -- V2.01 (10/21/94) By Bill Norcott Operating System: FreeBSD 2.x -- using fsync() Send comments to: b_norcott@xway.com IOZONE writes a 48 Megabyte sequential file consisting of 98304 records which are each 512 bytes in length. It then reads the file. It prints the bytes-per-second rate at which the computer can read and write files. Writing the 48 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...9.289062 seconds Reading the file...6.429688 seconds IOZONE performance measurements: 5418377 bytes/second for writing the file 7828008 bytes/second for reading the file My Ultra DMA IDE disk generates about 8MB/sec for writing . Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 17:14:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06688 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:14:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from plaut.de (ns.plaut.de [194.39.177.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06679 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:14:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from afuchs@totum.plaut.de) Received: from totum.plaut.de (totum.plaut.de [194.39.177.9]) by plaut.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA00885; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:13:57 +0100 Received: from localhost (afuchs@localhost) by totum.plaut.de (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA07459; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:13:58 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:13:58 +0100 (MET) From: alex fuchsstadt To: Jim Shankland cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, another stepping that crashes: CPU: 120-MHz Pentium 735\\90 or 815\\100 (Pentium-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x526 Stepping=6 Features=0x1bf Bye, Alex Alexander Fuchsstadt -------------------- R/3-Basis Plaut Software GmbH From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 17:15:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06757 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@tibet-5.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.9.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06745 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:14:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05266; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:15:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:15:04 -0800 (PST) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Luigi Rizzo cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711071920.UAA27445@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > just curious -- how did you find that ? Popped up on bugtraq. - alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 18:05:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09565 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09559 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:05:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00452; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:31:31 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711080201.MAA00452@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jonathan Mini cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Nov 1997 01:44:44 -0800." <19971107014444.46046@micron.mini.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 12:31:29 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > > What privelege level is this running at? > > > > It has to run with DPL = 0. > > Why? Because it has to in order to meet the spec. If you're interested, or think you have some ideas on this, you can grab the spec from microsoft's website. Make sure you get the clarification as well, as there's a very confusing error in one of the critical digrams... > > > Why not just execute an illegal instruction and catch it? > > > > Because this is in the kernel context, and I've no way of knowing how > > to say "just for now I want illegal instructions to come here". > > Although it seems less elegant, it seems to me that it really is the best > solution to create threads for kernel-started processes for things like > vm86/16-bit-protected-mode BIOS calls. Is it feasible to fork a process running in 16-bit protected mode? I know the vm86 stuff works; I'm using it now. > What we need is an elegant way to fork a process to do something for the > kernel. (an interesting concept when you think about it. Kind of a reverse > syscall) It's actually pretty easy; with any luck I'll be happy enough with the vm86 stuff to commit it tomorrow. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 18:16:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09959 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09951 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:16:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20362; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:16:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971107181614.32380@micron.mini.net> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:16:14 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971107014444.46046@micron.mini.net> <199711080201.MAA00452@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711080201.MAA00452@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 12:31:29PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > > > What privelege level is this running at? > > > > > > It has to run with DPL = 0. > > > > Why? > > Because it has to in order to meet the spec. If you're interested, or > think you have some ideas on this, you can grab the spec from > microsoft's website. Make sure you get the clarification as well, as > there's a very confusing error in one of the critical digrams... hehehe. It should be possible to just give it i/o access to all of the ports, or if you feel parinoid, just a subset, and then ``emulate'' the exception 13 instruction cases. (there aren't many) Personally, I feel very insecure running a BIOS at DPL = 0. I certainly woulndn't like letting third party software muck with everything. (even if it is on a ROM (ok, a flashable ROM)) > > > > Why not just execute an illegal instruction and catch it? > > > > > > Because this is in the kernel context, and I've no way of knowing how > > > to say "just for now I want illegal instructions to come here". > > > > Although it seems less elegant, it seems to me that it really is the best > > solution to create threads for kernel-started processes for things like > > vm86/16-bit-protected-mode BIOS calls. > > Is it feasible to fork a process running in 16-bit protected mode? I > know the vm86 stuff works; I'm using it now. There should be no reason why not. In fact, most of the code to do it should be in place for the vm86 stuff. It's effectively the same. Just dink with the mode field in the TSS while creating a context for the task. > > What we need is an elegant way to fork a process to do something for the > > kernel. (an interesting concept when you think about it. Kind of a reverse > > syscall) > > It's actually pretty easy; with any luck I'll be happy enough with the > vm86 stuff to commit it tomorrow. Hear me cheer! I have been working on vm86 BIOS/DOS interaction for a while now for my own projects. If you have something elegant it will be a godsend. :) > > mike > -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 18:42:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11190 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:42:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11185 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00641; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:08:14 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711080238.NAA00641@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jonathan Mini cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:16:14 -0800." <19971107181614.32380@micron.mini.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 13:08:13 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > It has to run with DPL = 0. > > > > > > Why? > > > > Because it has to in order to meet the spec. If you're interested, or > > think you have some ideas on this, you can grab the spec from > > microsoft's website. Make sure you get the clarification as well, as > > there's a very confusing error in one of the critical digrams... > > hehehe. It should be possible to just give it i/o access to all of the ports, > or if you feel parinoid, just a subset, and then ``emulate'' the exception 13 > instruction cases. (there aren't many) Ugh. You are taking a very small piece of code and making it *very* complicated. It *must* be called from inside the kernel because at the point where it's needed there is nowhere else to be calling it from. > Personally, I feel very insecure running a BIOS at DPL = 0. I certainly > woulndn't like letting third party software muck with everything. (even if it > is on a ROM (ok, a flashable ROM)) Like I said, if you have a better idea, I am seriously interested in pursuing it. > > It's actually pretty easy; with any luck I'll be happy enough with the > > vm86 stuff to commit it tomorrow. > > Hear me cheer! I have been working on vm86 BIOS/DOS interaction for a while > now for my own projects. If you have something elegant it will be a godsend. > :) It's not entirely elegant, or even mostly mine, but there's a single-line call you can make anywhere (once its safe to sleep) inside the kernel that will run a vm86-mode interrupt for you. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 18:45:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11388 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:45:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from phoenix.its.rpi.edu (phoenix.its.rpi.edu [128.113.161.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11383 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu) Received: from localhost (dec@localhost) by phoenix.its.rpi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00300; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:45:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:45:23 -0500 (EST) From: "David E. Cross" To: Julian Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463B053.2781E494@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, it is the lone person whose machine didn't flame down in death (that time). I ran the test again, and *poof*, lockup. I ran it again after that, everything was fine?!?!?!??!? -- Confused David Cross From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 18:46:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11446 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:46:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11441 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:46:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00675; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:11:36 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711080241.NAA00675@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Luigi Rizzo cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are these SCSI cards supported ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:31:27 BST." <199711071631.RAA27076@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 13:11:36 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > the first one is a PnP board coming with an HP ScanJet5p -- it's labeled > something like Symbios 53C416 and its PnP ID is SLI4161 > Apparently it does not use DMA, and from the name I thought it was > compatible with the driver in ncr5380.c -- unfortunately the probe > seems not to recognize it. It seems to be a PnP variant of the 53c400. It might work with the 'nca' driver, but would probably need to be brought up active. Performance would be extremely poor. > The other one is a bit older, came with a Philips CD-R, and it is > labeled Advansys ABP 5140-42 -- the main chip is marked ASC1090-B. > The card has four dip switches accessible from the rear panel, next to > the small external scsi connector. This one might be supported by the Advansys driver in Justin's CAM patches. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 19:28:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13171 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13161 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:28:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA20475; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:27:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971107192715.29070@micron.mini.net> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:27:15 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971107181614.32380@micron.mini.net> <199711080238.NAA00641@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711080238.NAA00641@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 01:08:13PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > > > > It has to run with DPL = 0. > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > Because it has to in order to meet the spec. If you're interested, or > > > think you have some ideas on this, you can grab the spec from > > > microsoft's website. Make sure you get the clarification as well, as > > > there's a very confusing error in one of the critical digrams... > > > > hehehe. It should be possible to just give it i/o access to all of the ports, > > or if you feel parinoid, just a subset, and then ``emulate'' the exception 13 > > instruction cases. (there aren't many) > > Ugh. You are taking a very small piece of code and making it *very* > complicated. It *must* be called from inside the kernel because at the > point where it's needed there is nowhere else to be calling it from. You are correct. It would make the code a lot more complex. > > Personally, I feel very insecure running a BIOS at DPL = 0. I certainly > > woulndn't like letting third party software muck with everything. (even if it > > is on a ROM (ok, a flashable ROM)) > > Like I said, if you have a better idea, I am seriously interested in > pursuing it. Well. Te only thing I can think of is to set up a task gate that will 'jump' you into a 32bit protected mode TSS, preferably the one where you started. (I'm assuming the kernel's) When is this code being run? Are we talkign about a during-boot-cycle type setup, or is the scheduler online and tickign away at this point in time? > > > > It's actually pretty easy; with any luck I'll be happy enough with the > > > vm86 stuff to commit it tomorrow. > > > > Hear me cheer! I have been working on vm86 BIOS/DOS interaction for a while > > now for my own projects. If you have something elegant it will be a godsend. > > :) > > It's not entirely elegant, or even mostly mine, but there's a single-line > call you can make anywhere (once its safe to sleep) inside the kernel that > will run a vm86-mode interrupt for you. Hmm. I'. not using kernel code for this. (it's all userland) > > mike > > -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 19:55:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14310 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:55:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ms11.hinet.net (root@ms11.hinet.net [168.95.4.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14304 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:55:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jwlo@ms11.hinet.net) Received: from ms11.hinet.net (dialup225.cyut.edu.tw [163.17.3.225]) by ms11.hinet.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA25075; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:56:35 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <3463E1A7.DFFE15EB@ms11.hinet.net> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 11:51:03 +0800 From: Doug Lo X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <3463605C.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You wrote: > On a "genuine Intel" pentium (not pentium pro) > execution of the following sequence, 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8 > > will stop the processor. This is doable from user mode and in > 16bitmode, or in fact any mode. > > try the following c program. > > unsigned char x[] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8 }; > > main () > { > void (*f)(void) = x; > f(); > } > > We've checked: > K5... OK > P6... OK > P5... *SPLAT* > > no idea about the pentium II or other pentium copies. > K6? > > other pentium variants? > versions? > > this one DEFINITLY dies: > CPU: Pentium (99.38-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 > Features=0x1bf > Julian, I tried it. Also crashes. CPU: Pentium (132.96-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x526 Stepping=6 Features=0x1bf BTW, would anyone tell me what these arguments mean(0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8)? Regards, Doug. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 22:26:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19448 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:26:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19443 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:26:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA08424 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:26:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711080626.WAA08424@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 to: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Seagate Cheetah performance... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:04:50 PST." <199711080104.RAA00593@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 22:26:34 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I found a way to nearly double my performance: iozone 48 IOZONE: Performance Test of Sequential File I/O -- V2.01 (10/21/94) By Bill Norcott Operating System: FreeBSD 2.x -- using fsync() Send comments to: b_norcott@xway.com IOZONE writes a 48 Megabyte sequential file consisting of 98304 records which are each 512 bytes in length. It then reads the file. It prints the bytes-per-second rate at which the computer can read and write files. Writing the 48 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...5.523438 seconds Reading the file...4.921875 seconds IOZONE performance measurements: 9112377 bytes/second for writing the file 10226112 bytes/second for reading the file --- I added this to my kernel config file: options AHC_TAGENABLE options AHC_SCBPAGING_ENABLE options AHC_ALLOW_MEMIO Maybe there is another kernel option to further boost my scsi disk i/o 8) Tnks, Amancio > > Any tweaking that I do to improve the performance of my : > type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > > iozone 48 > > IOZONE: Performance Test of Sequential File I/O -- V2.01 (10/21/94) > By Bill Norcott > > Operating System: FreeBSD 2.x -- using fsync() > > Send comments to: b_norcott@xway.com > > IOZONE writes a 48 Megabyte sequential file consisting of > 98304 records which are each 512 bytes in length. > It then reads the file. It prints the bytes-per-second > rate at which the computer can read and write files. > > > Writing the 48 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...9.289062 seconds > Reading the file...6.429688 seconds > > IOZONE performance measurements: > 5418377 bytes/second for writing the file > 7828008 bytes/second for reading the file > > My Ultra DMA IDE disk generates about 8MB/sec for writing . > > Tnks, > Amancio > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 22:40:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19894 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:40:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com [206.14.52.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19889 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jas@flyingfox.com) Received: (from jas@localhost) by biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA02677 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:39:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:39:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Shankland Message-Id: <199711080639.WAA02677@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: weird crashes in VM system -- advice sought Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Let me first say that I'm running a 2.2.2-RELEASE kernel with fairly extensive local modifications to the networking stuff. I'm getting crashes in the VM system, and there's a very good chance they're caused by some change I've made, though I haven't monkeyed with the VM system at all. So I'm not hoping for anyone to go find and fix this for me. But if anyone has a word or two of advice on how to track this down, or what kind of error might cause it, I'd sure appreciate it. I have 4 dumps. In all of them, the system crashed while cleaning up the VM of an exiting process. In one case, it was named (8.1.1) dying after catching a SEGV, but the others were normal exits. Two of the four crashes were a panic("rlist_free: free start overlaps already freed area") when trying to free up swap space: the same segment was apparently getting freed twice. The other two are a trap occurring in pmap_remove_pages, on line 2601 of pmap.c: pte = (unsigned *)vtopte(pv->pv_va); It appears that the trap occurred just from trying to reference the page table PTmap. The value of pv->pv_va looks reasonable to me: 8192 in one case, 32768 in the other. The value of PTmap looks right, too: it's 0xefc00000. Anyway, I fully expect to be digging at this until my fingers are bloody, but if anyone has a 30-second insight that might save me a few hours of digging, I'd sure like to hear it. I've appended stack traces below. Jim Shankland Flying Fox Computer Systems, Inc. Stack trace 1: #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 #1 0xf0111572 in panic ( fmt=0xf01186af "rlist_free: free start overlaps already freed area") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367 #2 0xf01187da in rlist_free (rlh=0xf0204778, start=78432, end=78439) at ../../kern/subr_rlist.c:161 #3 0xf01ad58b in swap_pager_freeswapspace (object=0xf151a380, from=78432, to=78439) at ../../vm/swap_pager.c:409 #4 0xf01ad7f2 in swap_pager_free_swap (object=0xf151a380) at ../../vm/swap_pager.c:501 #5 0xf01add84 in swap_pager_dealloc (object=0xf151a380) at ../../vm/swap_pager.c:749 #6 0xf01b9126 in vm_pager_deallocate (object=0xf151a380) at ../../vm/vm_pager.c:177 #7 0xf01b4ec0 in vm_object_terminate (object=0xf151a380) at ../../vm/vm_object.c:416 #8 0xf01b4cfb in vm_object_deallocate (object=0xf151a380) at ../../vm/vm_object.c:353 #9 0xf01b30d8 in vm_map_entry_delete (map=0xf14bcb00, entry=0xf15cab40) at ../../vm/vm_map.c:1850 #10 0xf01b3254 in vm_map_delete (map=0xf14bcb00, start=0, end=4022329344) at ../../vm/vm_map.c:1951 #11 0xf01b32e4 in vm_map_remove (map=0xf14bcb00, start=0, end=4022329344) at ../../vm/vm_map.c:1976 #12 0xf010af90 in exit1 (p=0xf1473000, rv=139) at ../../kern/kern_exit.c:188 #13 0xf01127f6 in sigexit (p=0xf1473000, signum=11) at ../../kern/kern_sig.c:1218 #14 0xf01125da in postsig (signum=11) at ../../kern/kern_sig.c:1125 #15 0xf01c6538 in trap (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi = 13859904, tf_esi = 45, tf_ebp = -272640376, tf_isp = -272629788, tf_ebx = 1240, tf_edx = 516096, tf_ecx = 0, tf_eax = 9983, tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 1254, tf_eip = 117992, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 66054, tf_esp = -272640392, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:145 #16 0x1cce8 in ?? () Cannot access memory at address 0xefbfd68c. Stack trace 2: #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 #1 0xf0111572 in panic (fmt=0xf01c60cf "page fault") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367 #2 0xf01c6c36 in trap_fatal (frame=0xefbffed8) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:742 #3 0xf01c6724 in trap_pfault (frame=0xefbffed8, usermode=0) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:653 #4 0xf01c63ff in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = 0, tf_esi = -265431156, tf_ebp = -272629980, tf_isp = -272630016, tf_ebx = -265431156, tf_edx = 1073520933, tf_ecx = -272629752, tf_eax = 8, tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266581769, tf_cs = 8, tf_eflags = 66066, tf_esp = -245748736, tf_ss = -247014400}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:311 #5 0xf01c48f7 in pmap_remove_pages (pmap=0xf15a2c64, sva=0, eva=4022329344) at ../../i386/i386/pmap.c:2601 #6 0xf010af83 in exit1 (p=0xf146dc00, rv=0) at ../../kern/kern_exit.c:186 #7 0xf010ae44 in exit (p=0xf146dc00, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84) at ../../kern/kern_exit.c:106 #8 0xf01c6ecf in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi = 440268, tf_esi = 0, tf_ebp = -272638484, tf_isp = -272629788, tf_ebx = -1, tf_edx = 3, tf_ecx = 16, tf_eax = 1, tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 83053, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 582, tf_esp = -272638500, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890 #9 0x1446d in ?? () Cannot access memory at address 0xefbfddf0. (kgdb) Stack trace 3: #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 #1 0xf0111572 in panic (fmt=0xf01c60cf "page fault") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367 #2 0xf01c6c36 in trap_fatal (frame=0xefbffed8) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:742 #3 0xf01c6724 in trap_pfault (frame=0xefbffed8, usermode=0) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:653 #4 0xf01c63ff in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = 0, tf_esi = -265494360, tf_ebp = -272629980, tf_isp = -272630016, tf_ebx = -265494360, tf_edx = 134381568, tf_ecx = -272629728, tf_eax = 32, tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266581769, tf_cs = 8, tf_eflags = 66066, tf_esp = -246243328, tf_ss = -247014400}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:311 #5 0xf01c48f7 in pmap_remove_pages (pmap=0xf152a064, sva=0, eva=4022329344) at ../../i386/i386/pmap.c:2601 #6 0xf010af83 in exit1 (p=0xf146dc00, rv=0) at ../../kern/kern_exit.c:186 #7 0xf010ae44 in exit (p=0xf146dc00, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84) at ../../kern/kern_exit.c:106 #8 0xf01c6ecf in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi = 0, tf_esi = -1, tf_ebp = -272638768, tf_isp = -272629788, tf_ebx = 134754400, tf_edx = 0, tf_ecx = 134694524, tf_eax = 1, tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 134704429, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 658, tf_esp = -272638788, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890 #9 0x8076d2d in ?? () Cannot access memory at address 0xefbfdcd4. Stack trace 4: #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 #1 0xf0111572 in panic ( fmt=0xf01186af "rlist_free: free start overlaps already freed area") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367 #2 0xf01187da in rlist_free (rlh=0xf0204778, start=10784, end=10791) at ../../kern/subr_rlist.c:161 #3 0xf01ad58b in swap_pager_freeswapspace (object=0xf1535280, from=10784, to=10791) at ../../vm/swap_pager.c:409 #4 0xf01adc33 in swap_pager_copy (srcobject=0xf1535280, srcoffset=0, dstobject=0xf15a5e80, dstoffset=0, offset=0) at ../../vm/swap_pager.c:692 #5 0xf01b5a21 in vm_object_collapse (object=0xf15a5e80) at ../../vm/vm_object.c:1022 #6 0xf01b4c7a in vm_object_deallocate (object=0xf1524e80) at ../../vm/vm_object.c:307 #7 0xf01b30d8 in vm_map_entry_delete (map=0xf15bc500, entry=0xf152f6c0) at ../../vm/vm_map.c:1850 #8 0xf01b3254 in vm_map_delete (map=0xf15bc500, start=0, end=4022329344) at ../../vm/vm_map.c:1951 #9 0xf01b32e4 in vm_map_remove (map=0xf15bc500, start=0, end=4022329344) at ../../vm/vm_map.c:1976 #10 0xf010af90 in exit1 (p=0xf146d800, rv=256) at ../../kern/kern_exit.c:188 #11 0xf010ae44 in exit (p=0xf146d800, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84) at ../../kern/kern_exit.c:106 #12 0xf01c6ecf in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi = 0, tf_esi = -1, tf_ebp = -272648200, tf_isp = -272629788, tf_ebx = 134848608, tf_edx = 0, tf_ecx = 134787612, tf_eax = 1, tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 134789629, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 642, tf_esp = -272648220, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890 #13 0x808b9fd in ?? () Cannot access memory at address 0xefbfb7fc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 22:56:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20337 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:56:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from silent.darkening.com (nonxstnt@iskh122.haninge.kth.se [130.237.83.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20330 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:56:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nonxstnt@darkening.com) Received: from localhost (nonxstnt@localhost) by silent.darkening.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12734 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:55:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nonxstnt@darkening.com) X-Authentication-Warning: silent.darkening.com: nonxstnt owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:55:19 +0100 (CET) From: Thomas Stromberg To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Pentium bug on a Pentium II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id WAA20333 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Doesn't work so well on my P2/266 machine [software]./pbug zsh: illegal hardware instruction ./pbug CPU: Pentium Pro (265.91-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x633 Stepping=3 Features=0x80f9ff,MTRR (note to Jordan: perhaps we should identify this as a Pentium II soon?) --- thomas strömberg . system admin, royal institute of technology (stockholm) nobody@darkening.com . irc:nobody@EFnet . talk:nonxstnt@silent.darkening.com "the stupider one is, the clearer one thinks" -- Fyodor Dostoevsky From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 23:31:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21259 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:31:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21254 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA24989; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:31:15 -0800 (PST) To: Thomas Stromberg cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium bug on a Pentium II In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 07:55:19 +0100." Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 23:31:15 -0800 Message-ID: <24986.878974275@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > CPU: Pentium Pro (265.91-MHz 686-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x633 Stepping=3 > Features=0x80f9ff,MTRR > > (note to Jordan: perhaps we should identify this as a Pentium II soon?) Talk to David G. - he's usually the one who hacks on this, if not phk. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Nov 7 23:58:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22416 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:58:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22409 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xU5gX-0001X0-00; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:52:01 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:51:59 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Jim Shankland cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: weird crashes in VM system -- advice sought In-Reply-To: <199711080639.WAA02677@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Jim Shankland wrote: > Let me first say that I'm running a 2.2.2-RELEASE kernel with fairly > extensive local modifications to the networking stuff. I'm getting > crashes in the VM system, and there's a very good chance they're Some VM fixes have recently gone into 2.2-stable. I suggest you look at those first. Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 00:21:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA23238 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23233 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:21:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id IAA28467; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:11:08 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199711080711.IAA28467@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: Are these SCSI cards supported ? To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:11:07 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711080241.NAA00675@word.smith.net.au> from "Mike Smith" at Nov 8, 97 01:11:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > something like Symbios 53C416 and its PnP ID is SLI4161 > > Apparently it does not use DMA, and from the name I thought it was > > compatible with the driver in ncr5380.c -- unfortunately the probe > > seems not to recognize it. > > It seems to be a PnP variant of the 53c400. It might work with the > 'nca' driver, but would probably need to be brought up active. hmm... i tried to activate the PnP device with my code but it seems nto to be recognized. > Performance would be extremely poor. well it will be driving a scanner (and some of them do not disconnect during data transfers) so i don't care about performance but i prefer not having it on the main scsi adapter. Cheers Luigi From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 00:59:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA24667 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:59:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24659 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:59:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00364; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:25:05 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711080855.TAA00364@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jonathan Mini cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Nov 1997 19:27:15 -0800." <19971107192715.29070@micron.mini.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 19:25:04 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Personally, I feel very insecure running a BIOS at DPL = 0. I certainly > > > woulndn't like letting third party software muck with everything. (even if it > > > is on a ROM (ok, a flashable ROM)) > > > > Like I said, if you have a better idea, I am seriously interested in > > pursuing it. > > Well. Te only thing I can think of is to set up a task gate that will > 'jump' you into a 32bit protected mode TSS, preferably the one where you > started. (I'm assuming the kernel's) This was suggested by another respondent. I'd be very interested in knowing how I could arrange such a thing, either overloading the existing syscall callgate or making another for temporary use (I have another free descriptor that I can hijack for the purpose). > When is this code being run? Are we talkign about a during-boot-cycle type > setup, or is the scheduler online and tickign away at this point in time? Both. The initial PnP calls have to be made very early, in order to ascertain system resource availability. Then later a pass can be made to pick up peripheral details. > > It's not entirely elegant, or even mostly mine, but there's a single-line > > call you can make anywhere (once its safe to sleep) inside the kernel that > > will run a vm86-mode interrupt for you. > > Hmm. I'. not using kernel code for this. (it's all userland) You've been able to run vm86 stuff in userland for ages; what is it that you are missing? Unless someone can identify any serious security holes in the implementation, vm86 support will stop being optional (at least for the APM case, I hope). mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 01:37:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA26514 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:37:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26509 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:37:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA04402; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:36:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga11-13.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.173) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma004393; Sat Nov 8 03:36:22 1997 Message-ID: <34643280.3DF003BE@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 04:36:01 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG CC: Luigi Rizzo , joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: where is xman ??? References: <199711071512.QAA26923@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <19971108004118.UL14152@uriah.heep.sax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > > As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > Unless I am doing something wrong, I am unable to find xman -- and > > perhaps some other programs are missing -- in the XF86331 binaries > > compiled for 2.2.5 > > It seems to be missing from recent XFree86 releases. It was supposed > to be built separately (it's not in the xc/ subtree, but in contrib/). > > (Cc to David Dawes and Rich Murphy) > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) Indeed, it was not in the binaries I got from XFree86 about a month and a half ago. W started having a lot of AfterStep crashes (always running Netscape 4.03b8) with that distribution about two weeks before 2.2.5-RELEASE. It would take out X and all; several times a day. Recompiled everything (world, AfterStep, XFree86 and contrib from ports) and it's been smooth sailing ever since. Just out of paranoia, I've been doing it along with STABLE updates every so often. Question is, have the binaries been recompiled by XFree86 Inc. since 2.2.5-RELEASE? Should this matter? It definitely -seemed- to for me. We like the latest TkMan too... Good Luck Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 01:41:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA26768 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:41:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26763 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:41:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA20858; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:40:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971108014051.33398@micron.mini.net> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:40:51 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971107192715.29070@micron.mini.net> <199711080855.TAA00364@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711080855.TAA00364@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 07:25:04PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > > > Personally, I feel very insecure running a BIOS at DPL = 0. I certainly > > > > woulndn't like letting third party software muck with everything. (even if it > > > > is on a ROM (ok, a flashable ROM)) > > > > > > Like I said, if you have a better idea, I am seriously interested in > > > pursuing it. > > > > Well. Te only thing I can think of is to set up a task gate that will > > 'jump' you into a 32bit protected mode TSS, preferably the one where you > > started. (I'm assuming the kernel's) > > This was suggested by another respondent. I'd be very interested in > knowing how I could arrange such a thing, either overloading the > existing syscall callgate or making another for temporary use (I have > another free descriptor that I can hijack for the purpose). I don't know, I've never done it myself, personally. :) > > When is this code being run? Are we talkign about a during-boot-cycle type > > setup, or is the scheduler online and tickign away at this point in time? > > Both. The initial PnP calls have to be made very early, in order to > ascertain system resource availability. Then later a pass can be made > to pick up peripheral details. Ok, it is as I thought. Personally, I am a fan of the kernel keeping around a few contexts that it rarely uses. Basically, IMHO, it would be best if once the bootblocks got ahold of the system, they created three contexts : - a 32-bit 'we are the kernel now' context, - a 16-bit protected-mode 'let's play with the BIOS' context, and - a 16-bit vm86 'let's pretend we are a Microsoft OS' context. The idea is that the various contexts would be able to be used to 'pitch in' when needed. For example, the boot process woudl change from hopping back and forth from protected mode to real mode into : - hop into protected mode, create a vm86 task which handle loading the kernel. (map the vm86 1M+ range to where you want the kernel to go, or do a 1:1 map of all physical memory, and then set the vm86's descriptor limit to 4G or so. Do all the loading from vm86 mode. much easier code to look at) - hop into the kernel, from the vm86 task. The kernel would be in a situation where it is in a ring 0 32bit TSS with a vm86 TSS which has mappings to do some basic BIOS calls for it, possibly even some complex ones. - create the 16-bit protected-mode tss now. Use this to collect PnP BIOS information, or whatever. Possibly even use the vm86 BIOS to reset your hardware. (I did this as a first attempt at making vm86 do hardware control. It was fun to watch syscons dissapear as the videocard's BIOS reset itself and the Trident BIOS logo appear. (My crash machine has an old 16bit ISA Trident VGA cards that is slow, but works)) This means that there would be basically three parts to the kernel, a main kernel which is as the kernel is now, and two stubs which reside in vm86 and 16bit protected tss's. These stubs would be able to handle various simple actions, such as running a bit of code and then exiting the world via a call gate. (the effect would be similar to setting up a timeout. Set the timeout, go out to lunch, and then get a function called when the action is done) What would be best would be to extend the current SYSINIT system to give the type of TSS wanted while the action takes place. For example, the the PnP code would be one entry inf the SYSINIT table, which would be followed by another entry which would use the info that probe created, etc, etc. I'm certain how much of a restructure this would require in the FreeBSD kernel, but the advantages would be _very_ nice. Unfortunatly, it would require a multi-section kernel, and a compiler which groks 16bit code. > > > It's not entirely elegant, or even mostly mine, but there's a single-line > > > call you can make anywhere (once its safe to sleep) inside the kernel that > > > will run a vm86-mode interrupt for you. > > > > Hmm. I'. not using kernel code for this. (it's all userland) > > You've been able to run vm86 stuff in userland for ages; what is it that > you are missing? Unless someone can identify any serious security > holes in the implementation, vm86 support will stop being optional (at > least for the APM case, I hope). A way which would allow the protected mode code to request services of the vm86 code rather than visa versa. Currently, the only method I have created is for the task to do a vfork, and the child turns itself into a vm86 process with a monitor. (I am working on a VESA VBE 1.2 & 2.0 graphics library, which John-Mark Gurney (a friend on mine) has said that there would be interest for from FreeBSD, so perhaps my private project isn't so private.) > > mike > > -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 01:58:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27803 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:58:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27792 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00629; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:24:17 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711080954.UAA00629@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jonathan Mini cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 01:40:51 -0800." <19971108014051.33398@micron.mini.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 20:24:16 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Well. Te only thing I can think of is to set up a task gate that will > > > 'jump' you into a 32bit protected mode TSS, preferably the one where you > > > started. (I'm assuming the kernel's) > > > > This was suggested by another respondent. I'd be very interested in > > knowing how I could arrange such a thing, either overloading the > > existing syscall callgate or making another for temporary use (I have > > another free descriptor that I can hijack for the purpose). > > I don't know, I've never done it myself, personally. :) Ah. A handwave response. 8) I'll look at it tomorrow; it was suggested that I buy a book - obviously a suggestion from someone that doesn't live in this book-desert. > Ok, it is as I thought. Personally, I am a fan of the kernel keeping around > a few contexts that it rarely uses. Basically, IMHO, it would be best if once > the bootblocks got ahold of the system, they created three contexts : > - a 32-bit 'we are the kernel now' context, > - a 16-bit protected-mode 'let's play with the BIOS' context, and > - a 16-bit vm86 'let's pretend we are a Microsoft OS' context. Too complicated, and inadequate. There is a separate 32-bit context needed for the APM BIOS as well, and we are out of descriptors already. The vm86 support handles this differently by creating a kernel process at a later stage. > The idea is that the various contexts would be able to be used to 'pitch in' > when needed. For example, the boot process woudl change from hopping back and > forth from protected mode to real mode into : > > - hop into protected mode, create a vm86 task which handle > loading the kernel. (map the vm86 1M+ range to where you want the > kernel to go, or do a 1:1 map of all physical memory, and then set > the vm86's descriptor limit to 4G or so. Do all the loading from > vm86 mode. much easier code to look at) Unfortunately, we have no tools for writing realmode code. I was perhaps somewhat misleading regarding running the bootstrap in real mode; please look at the code for an understanding of the issues. > - hop into the kernel, from the vm86 task. The kernel would be in > a situation where it is in a ring 0 32bit TSS with a vm86 TSS which > has mappings to do some basic BIOS calls for it, possibly even some > complex ones. This isn't making a lot of sense to me. Are you implying that one could be in 32-bit PM and vm86 mode at the same time? > This means that there would be basically three parts to the kernel, a > main kernel which is as the kernel is now, and two stubs which reside in > vm86 and 16bit protected tss's. These stubs would be able to handle > various simple actions, such as running a bit of code and then exiting the > world via a call gate. (the effect would be similar to setting up a > timeout. Set the timeout, go out to lunch, and then get a function called > when the action is done) This is how the vm86 code works now. It's not usable for your projected scenario however as the timeout code doesn't happen until too late. > kernel, but the advantages would be _very_ nice. Unfortunatly, it would require > a multi-section kernel, and a compiler which groks 16bit code. This latter is a crucial issue. > > You've been able to run vm86 stuff in userland for ages; what is it that > > you are missing? Unless someone can identify any serious security > > holes in the implementation, vm86 support will stop being optional (at > > least for the APM case, I hope). > > A way which would allow the protected mode code to request services of > the vm86 code rather than visa versa. Currently, the only method I have > created is for the task to do a vfork, and the child turns itself into a > vm86 process with a monitor. What's the difference? Your execution passes between vm86 mode and 32-bit PM; which direction information passes is entirely a semantic issue. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 02:15:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA28464 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA28459 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:15:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA20984; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:14:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971108021451.30385@micron.mini.net> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:14:51 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971108014051.33398@micron.mini.net> <199711080954.UAA00629@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711080954.UAA00629@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 08:24:16PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > > > Well. Te only thing I can think of is to set up a task gate that will > > > > 'jump' you into a 32bit protected mode TSS, preferably the one where you > > > > started. (I'm assuming the kernel's) > > > > > > This was suggested by another respondent. I'd be very interested in > > > knowing how I could arrange such a thing, either overloading the > > > existing syscall callgate or making another for temporary use (I have > > > another free descriptor that I can hijack for the purpose). > > > > I don't know, I've never done it myself, personally. :) > > Ah. A handwave response. 8) I'll look at it tomorrow; it was > suggested that I buy a book - obviously a suggestion from someone that > doesn't live in this book-desert. I have a intel i386 architecture paper that is something like 300 pages long that's in ASCII format that I found somewhere along the line. It is very indepth, but I have personally never used it. (I own most of intel's specs in paper form) > > Ok, it is as I thought. Personally, I am a fan of the kernel keeping around > > a few contexts that it rarely uses. Basically, IMHO, it would be best if once > > the bootblocks got ahold of the system, they created three contexts : > > - a 32-bit 'we are the kernel now' context, > > - a 16-bit protected-mode 'let's play with the BIOS' context, and > > - a 16-bit vm86 'let's pretend we are a Microsoft OS' context. > > Too complicated, and inadequate. There is a separate 32-bit context > needed for the APM BIOS as well, and we are out of descriptors already. > The vm86 support handles this differently by creating a kernel process > at a later stage. *blinks* ok. I expected that shot down. > > The idea is that the various contexts would be able to be used to 'pitch in' > > when needed. For example, the boot process woudl change from hopping back and > > forth from protected mode to real mode into : > > > > - hop into protected mode, create a vm86 task which handle > > loading the kernel. (map the vm86 1M+ range to where you want the > > kernel to go, or do a 1:1 map of all physical memory, and then set > > the vm86's descriptor limit to 4G or so. Do all the loading from > > vm86 mode. much easier code to look at) > > Unfortunately, we have no tools for writing realmode code. I was > perhaps somewhat misleading regarding running the bootstrap in real > mode; please look at the code for an understanding of the issues. I have looked at FreeBSD's boot loading code in detail. As to writing realmode code, I feel your pain. Currently I am suffering from the same problem myself. The closest I have come is Bruce's bcc package, which is *ahem* an entertaining set of utilities. The C compiler has been more annoying that frustrating. > > - hop into the kernel, from the vm86 task. The kernel would be in > > a situation where it is in a ring 0 32bit TSS with a vm86 TSS which > > has mappings to do some basic BIOS calls for it, possibly even some > > complex ones. > > This isn't making a lot of sense to me. Are you implying that one > could be in 32-bit PM and vm86 mode at the same time? No. I am saying that the kernel has on it's hands two prepped and functional TSS's. One which describes a vm86 environment suitable for making BIOS calls, and another which is the 32bit protected mode TSS that the kernel is used to having. It looks like my message came out a little garbled. :( Thats what I get for trying to argue^H^H^H^H^Hdiscuss simulation physics with a friend while compsing a message about operating systems. (all I want for christmas is a multi-tasking mind. A premptively multi-tasking mind...) > > This means that there would be basically three parts to the kernel, a > > main kernel which is as the kernel is now, and two stubs which reside in > > vm86 and 16bit protected tss's. These stubs would be able to handle > > various simple actions, such as running a bit of code and then exiting the > > world via a call gate. (the effect would be similar to setting up a > > timeout. Set the timeout, go out to lunch, and then get a function called > > when the action is done) > > This is how the vm86 code works now. It's not usable for your > projected scenario however as the timeout code doesn't happen until > too late. Woops. I wasn't planning on using the timeout code at all. I was merely commiting a pilot error. I thought I had deleted all the para's pertaining to that misguided response. Doh. > > kernel, but the advantages would be _very_ nice. Unfortunatly, it would require > > a multi-section kernel, and a compiler which groks 16bit code. > > This latter is a crucial issue. Ding. I know. It is so bad that I am planning on writing a 16bit compiler to fill my needs. Unfortunatly, this is not a C compiler, so it probably won't help you any. > > > You've been able to run vm86 stuff in userland for ages; what is it that > > > you are missing? Unless someone can identify any serious security > > > holes in the implementation, vm86 support will stop being optional (at > > > least for the APM case, I hope). > > > > A way which would allow the protected mode code to request services of > > the vm86 code rather than visa versa. Currently, the only method I have > > created is for the task to do a vfork, and the child turns itself into a > > vm86 process with a monitor. > > What's the difference? Your execution passes between vm86 mode and > 32-bit PM; which direction information passes is entirely a semantic > issue. It is not the way the information passes, which the way that the process's control thread passes. Currently, it goes : pmode : (setup) -> vm86 (run run run) (fault) -> pmode (handle fault) <- (return) (run run run) I need : pmode : (setup) -> vm86 (perform subserviant task) <- (fault) (run run run) > > mike > > -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 02:26:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA28948 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:26:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA28937 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:26:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00794; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:52:14 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711081022.UAA00794@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jonathan Mini cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 02:14:51 -0800." <19971108021451.30385@micron.mini.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 20:52:11 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > - hop into the kernel, from the vm86 task. The kernel would be in > > > a situation where it is in a ring 0 32bit TSS with a vm86 TSS which > > > has mappings to do some basic BIOS calls for it, possibly even some > > > complex ones. > > > > This isn't making a lot of sense to me. Are you implying that one > > could be in 32-bit PM and vm86 mode at the same time? > > No. I am saying that the kernel has on it's hands two prepped and functional > TSS's. One which describes a vm86 environment suitable for making BIOS calls, > and another which is the 32bit protected mode TSS that the kernel is used to > having. Uh. I am still not understanding. With these on hand, what then? How do you swap between them in a useful fashion? When you say "TSS" do you just mean segment descriptors, or is there more to it than this? > > > A way which would allow the protected mode code to request services of > > > the vm86 code rather than visa versa. Currently, the only method I have > > > created is for the task to do a vfork, and the child turns itself into a > > > vm86 process with a monitor. > > > > What's the difference? Your execution passes between vm86 mode and > > 32-bit PM; which direction information passes is entirely a semantic > > issue. > > It is not the way the information passes, which the way that the process's > control thread passes. Currently, it goes : > > pmode : (setup) -> > vm86 > (run run run) > (fault) -> > pmode (handle fault) > <- (return) > (run run run) > > I need : > > pmode : > (setup) -> > vm86 > (perform subserviant task) > <- (fault) > (run run run) Try: pmode : (setup) (invoke init function)-> vm86 (run run run inside init function) (fault) -> pmode (return to main program) (run run run) (invoke function) -> (run run run) (fault) -> pmode (return to main program) (run run run) If you look at (invoke function) and expand it to (fiddle vm86 register set, return), then you see that all you are worrying about is semantic. The (return to main program) may have to be a little ugly, as in it may want to take the address of a function as an argument, ie. your entire application runs inside the vm86 fault handler, but all that would be invisible presuming that that the alternate signal stack was large enough. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 02:38:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA29543 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:38:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29538 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:38:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA21024; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:38:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971108023810.31291@micron.mini.net> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:38:10 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971108021451.30385@micron.mini.net> <199711081022.UAA00794@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711081022.UAA00794@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 08:52:11PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > > > I need : > > > > pmode : > > (setup) -> > > vm86 > > (perform subserviant task) > > <- (fault) > > (run run run) > > Try: > pmode : (setup) (invoke init function)-> > vm86 > (run run run inside init function) > (fault) -> > pmode (return to main program) > (run run run) > (invoke function) -> > (run run run) > (fault) -> > pmode (return to main program) > (run run run) > > If you look at (invoke function) and expand it to (fiddle vm86 register > set, return), then you see that all you are worrying about is semantic. > The (return to main program) may have to be a little ugly, as in it may > want to take the address of a function as an argument, ie. your entire > application runs inside the vm86 fault handler, but all that would be > invisible presuming that that the alternate signal stack was large > enough. I was hoping to avoid that solution. This is an implementation for a library. It all falls down to one this : the vm86 arena has to be in the 0-1M memory range. If I'm implementing a library for this, I can't really do that. Hence I have to create a new context that I can destroy in order to set up the vm86 arena. -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 02:44:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA29986 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:44:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29981 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:44:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA21035; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:44:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971108024426.54269@micron.mini.net> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:44:26 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971108021451.30385@micron.mini.net> <199711081022.UAA00794@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711081022.UAA00794@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 08:52:11PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > > > - hop into the kernel, from the vm86 task. The kernel would be in > > > > a situation where it is in a ring 0 32bit TSS with a vm86 TSS which > > > > has mappings to do some basic BIOS calls for it, possibly even some > > > > complex ones. > > > > > > This isn't making a lot of sense to me. Are you implying that one > > > could be in 32-bit PM and vm86 mode at the same time? > > > > No. I am saying that the kernel has on it's hands two prepped and functional > > TSS's. One which describes a vm86 environment suitable for making BIOS calls, > > and another which is the 32bit protected mode TSS that the kernel is used to > > having. > > Uh. I am still not understanding. With these on hand, what then? How > do you swap between them in a useful fashion? When you say "TSS" do > you just mean segment descriptors, or is there more to it than this? Sorry, TSS is an Intel term. The TSS is everything that defines the task. It's LDT, IO map, and a little bit of dataspace to hold that task's state. (regs, flags, processor mode, etc) A task gate is implemented as a entry in the LDT, GDT, or IDT that you jump through. I am assuming that a TSS for the three types of kernel use, as well as a task gate for moving from one to the other would be available. Otherwise, you have to rely on some sort of fault-catcher in order to leave the processor state. (as with the vm86 code, you need to have something like an IRQ or exception to leave the task) If you like, I can dig up specifics as to how this works. -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 02:45:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00137 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:45:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.166.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00122 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:45:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from se@dialup124.zpr.uni-koeln.de) Received: from dialup124.zpr.Uni-Koeln.DE (dialup124.zpr.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.219.124]) by Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05891; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:45:26 +0100 (MET) Received: (from se@localhost) by dialup124.zpr.Uni-Koeln.DE (8.8.7/8.6.9) id LAA06181; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:45:23 +0100 (CET) X-Face: " Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:45:21 +0100 From: Stefan Esser To: Amancio Hasty Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Seagate Cheetah performance... References: <199711080104.RAA00593@rah.star-gate.com> <199711080626.WAA08424@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199711080626.WAA08424@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 10:26:34PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 1997-11-07 22:26 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Well, > > I found a way to nearly double my performance: > > > iozone 48 > > IOZONE: Performance Test of Sequential File I/O -- V2.01 (10/21/94) > By Bill Norcott > > Operating System: FreeBSD 2.x -- using fsync() > > Send comments to: b_norcott@xway.com > > IOZONE writes a 48 Megabyte sequential file consisting of > 98304 records which are each 512 bytes in length. ^^^^^^^^^ This is where your problem originates! Reading 512 byte blocks is not a typical situation at all ... > It then reads the file. It prints the bytes-per-second > rate at which the computer can read and write files. > > > Writing the 48 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...5.523438 seconds > Reading the file...4.921875 seconds > > IOZONE performance measurements: > 9112377 bytes/second for writing the file > 10226112 bytes/second for reading the file This is > 20000 SCSI commands ! SCSI overhead must be lower than 50us ! Wow! What are you complaining about ? :-) > > Any tweaking that I do to improve the performance of my : > > type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > > > > iozone 48 > > IOZONE performance measurements: > > 5418377 bytes/second for writing the file > > 7828008 bytes/second for reading the file Again: You are using a much to small transfer rate ! > > My Ultra DMA IDE disk generates about 8MB/sec for writing . IDE overhead is much smaller than SCSI, there is no arbitration for a shared bus, for example. Please test all three drives with Bonnie. Use a test file at least twice as much as your system's RAM, and report your findings ... You'll get a different picture, I assume ! Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 02:47:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00316 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:47:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00282 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00922; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:13:36 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711081043.VAA00922@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jonathan Mini cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 02:38:10 -0800." <19971108023810.31291@micron.mini.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:13:34 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I was hoping to avoid that solution. This is an implementation for a library. > It all falls down to one this : the vm86 arena has to be in the 0-1M memory > range. If I'm implementing a library for this, I can't really do that. Hence > I have to create a new context that I can destroy in order to set up the > vm86 arena. Two possible solutions; use a coprocess running the vm86 thread as a sort of "graphics processor" (involves a context switch between operations, but you could stack them), or wait for the vm86 sysarch() stuff that comes with the vm86 stuff I am working on. (Kernel entry and two context switches per call.) Initially you can only run a single interrupt and have no way of providing any other data, but we can probably come up with something much more efficient (eg. mmap of a section of the vm86 address space). Once the initial code is in place, I'll be taking suggestions. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 02:50:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00489 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:50:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00484 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA21051; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:49:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971108024958.28488@micron.mini.net> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:49:58 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971108023810.31291@micron.mini.net> <199711081043.VAA00922@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711081043.VAA00922@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 09:13:34PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > I was hoping to avoid that solution. This is an implementation for a library. > > It all falls down to one this : the vm86 arena has to be in the 0-1M memory > > range. If I'm implementing a library for this, I can't really do that. Hence > > I have to create a new context that I can destroy in order to set up the > > vm86 arena. > > Two possible solutions; use a coprocess running the vm86 thread as a > sort of "graphics processor" (involves a context switch between > operations, but you could stack them), or wait for the vm86 sysarch() > stuff that comes with the vm86 stuff I am working on. (Kernel entry > and two context switches per call.) That is how I originally planned writing the code. I am working on a method that uses vfork(2) to see if it is any faster/slower/doesn't-make-a-difference. Not much is really done in the vm86 task, just calls to do things like set the video mode and such. > Initially you can only run a single interrupt and have no way of > providing any other data, but we can probably come up with something > much more efficient (eg. mmap of a section of the vm86 address space). > > Once the initial code is in place, I'll be taking suggestions. 8) > > mike > > -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 02:56:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00676 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:56:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00646 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:55:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00966; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:21:53 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711081051.VAA00966@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jonathan Mini cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 02:49:58 -0800." <19971108024958.28488@micron.mini.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:21:50 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Two possible solutions; use a coprocess running the vm86 thread as a > > sort of "graphics processor" (involves a context switch between > > operations, but you could stack them), or wait for the vm86 sysarch() > > stuff that comes with the vm86 stuff I am working on. (Kernel entry > > and two context switches per call.) > > That is how I originally planned writing the code. I am working on a method > that uses vfork(2) to see if it is any faster/slower/doesn't-make-a-difference. Don't use vfork; it sucks. Use popen() and a dedicated graphics processor process. Note that the FreeBSD pipe code has some odd behavioural quirks; most particularly the more you can write in a single hit, the faster it is. This is especially the case if you are writing a large amount of data in a stream between processes. If you're writing from scattered buffers, using writev() is an *enormous* win. > Not much is really done in the vm86 task, just calls to do things like set the > video mode and such. "And such" doesn't include anything particularly speed critical? mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 03:03:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA00879 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:03:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA00873 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:03:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA23238; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 05:01:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga11-13.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.173) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023236; Sat Nov 8 05:01:07 1997 Message-ID: <3464465C.435B3950@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 06:00:44 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Mini CC: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971108014051.33398@micron.mini.net> <199711080954.UAA00629@word.smith.net.au> <19971108021451.30385@micron.mini.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan Mini wrote: [snip, snip] > > Unfortunately, we have no tools for writing realmode code. I was > > perhaps somewhat misleading regarding running the bootstrap in real > > mode; please look at the code for an understanding of the issues. > > I have looked at FreeBSD's boot loading code in detail. As to writing > realmode code, I feel your pain. Currently I am suffering from the same > problem myself. The closest I have come is Bruce's bcc package, which is > *ahem* an entertaining set of utilities. The C compiler has been more annoying > that frustrating. Well, in the bad old days, I would probably have reached for Forth. There is some precedent for this approach over at Sun... I could probably whip up a Forth metacompiler for FreeBSD pretty quickly using PFE as the host. Just a thought. Good Luck, Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 03:11:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA01146 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA01137 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01053; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:36:48 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711081106.VAA01053@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com cc: Jonathan Mini , Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 06:00:44 CDT." <3464465C.435B3950@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:36:46 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jonathan Mini wrote: > > I have looked at FreeBSD's boot loading code in detail. As to writing > > realmode code, I feel your pain. Currently I am suffering from the same > > problem myself. The closest I have come is Bruce's bcc package, which is > > *ahem* an entertaining set of utilities. The C compiler has been more annoying > > that frustrating. > > Well, in the bad old days, I would probably have reached for Forth. > There is some precedent for this approach over at Sun... OpenBoot is big and expensive. > I could probably whip up a Forth metacompiler for FreeBSD pretty quickly > using PFE as the host. Just a thought. If you can roll a bootloader that uses just the BIOS and has a footprint around 7k, you'll have our attention... mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 03:13:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA01254 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:13:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA01245 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA21113; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:13:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971108031324.33689@micron.mini.net> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:13:25 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <19971108024958.28488@micron.mini.net> <199711081051.VAA00966@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711081051.VAA00966@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 09:21:50PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > > Two possible solutions; use a coprocess running the vm86 thread as a > > > sort of "graphics processor" (involves a context switch between > > > operations, but you could stack them), or wait for the vm86 sysarch() > > > stuff that comes with the vm86 stuff I am working on. (Kernel entry > > > and two context switches per call.) > > > > That is how I originally planned writing the code. I am working on a method > > that uses vfork(2) to see if it is any faster/slower/doesn't-make-a-difference. > > Don't use vfork; it sucks. Use popen() and a dedicated graphics > processor process. Ok. You win. :) > Note that the FreeBSD pipe code has some odd behavioural quirks; most > particularly the more you can write in a single hit, the faster it is. > This is especially the case if you are writing a large amount of data > in a stream between processes. If you're writing from scattered > buffers, using writev() is an *enormous* win. This behaviour is not quirky at all. It makes perfect sense. > > Not much is really done in the vm86 task, just calls to do things like set the > > video mode and such. > > "And such" doesn't include anything particularly speed critical? Nope. "and such" is things like 'please return the video card back to a state that syscons wants it in' -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 03:15:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA01317 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:15:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA01310 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:15:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA23774; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 05:13:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga11-13.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.173) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023770; Sat Nov 8 05:13:30 1997 Message-ID: <34644944.A4C78319@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 06:13:08 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith CC: Jonathan Mini , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <199711081106.VAA01053@word.smith.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith wrote: > > > Jonathan Mini wrote: > > > I have looked at FreeBSD's boot loading code in detail. As to writing > > > realmode code, I feel your pain. Currently I am suffering from the same > > > problem myself. The closest I have come is Bruce's bcc package, which is > > > *ahem* an entertaining set of utilities. The C compiler has been more annoying > > > that frustrating. > > > > Well, in the bad old days, I would probably have reached for Forth. > > There is some precedent for this approach over at Sun... > > OpenBoot is big and expensive. > > > I could probably whip up a Forth metacompiler for FreeBSD pretty quickly > > using PFE as the host. Just a thought. > > If you can roll a bootloader that uses just the BIOS and has a > footprint around 7k, you'll have our attention... > > mike Sounds doable... (Sound of mad scientist trundling off to basement) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 03:16:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA01431 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:16:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA01419 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:16:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA21133; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:16:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971108031630.47892@micron.mini.net> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:16:30 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: Mike Smith Cc: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <3464465C.435B3950@ix.netcom.com> <199711081106.VAA01053@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711081106.VAA01053@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 09:36:46PM +1030 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith stands accused of saying: > > Jonathan Mini wrote: > > > I have looked at FreeBSD's boot loading code in detail. As to writing > > > realmode code, I feel your pain. Currently I am suffering from the same > > > problem myself. The closest I have come is Bruce's bcc package, which is > > > *ahem* an entertaining set of utilities. The C compiler has been more annoying > > > that frustrating. > > > > Well, in the bad old days, I would probably have reached for Forth. > > There is some precedent for this approach over at Sun... > > OpenBoot is big and expensive. > > > I could probably whip up a Forth metacompiler for FreeBSD pretty quickly > > using PFE as the host. Just a thought. > > If you can roll a bootloader that uses just the BIOS and has a > footprint around 7k, you'll have our attention... 7k? wow. You've got more space than I thought you did. (by a lot) -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 03:43:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04274 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:43:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from unicorn.uk1.vbc.net (unicorn.uk1.vbc.net [194.207.2.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04252; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:42:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gordon@drogon.net) Received: from localhost (gordon@localhost) by unicorn.uk1.vbc.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA31926; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:42:42 GMT Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:42:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Gordon Henderson X-Sender: gordon@unicorn To: Stefan Esser cc: Amancio Hasty , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Seagate Cheetah performance... In-Reply-To: <19971108114521.06151@mi.uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: Distribution: world Organization: Home for lost Drogons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Stefan Esser wrote: > Please test all three drives with Bonnie. Use a test file at > least twice as much as your system's RAM, and report your > findings ... > > You'll get a different picture, I assume ! As Stefan says, you have to use a test file size more than your memory system has, and the bigger the better, and bonnie is fairly universally accepted, isn't it? To show you how misleading things can be, when a memory cache gets in the way, heres a bonnie outout on a 32MB file (on a 256MB machine) -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 32 6321 96.0 26077 76.1 14800 91.8 6127 94.8 40595 94.4 3320.7 90.0 40MB/sec read rate! Impressive, huh? (interesting to note how innefficient character reading/writing is over block reading/writing!) Is there a Bonnie that copes with > 2GB files yet? I'm using one that I've had for several years now... Gordon From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 03:46:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04449 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:46:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04441 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 03:46:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01216; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:11:26 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711081141.WAA01216@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jonathan Mini cc: Mike Smith , wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 03:16:30 -0800." <19971108031630.47892@micron.mini.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 22:11:25 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > If you can roll a bootloader that uses just the BIOS and has a > > footprint around 7k, you'll have our attention... > > 7k? wow. You've got more space than I thought you did. (by a lot) Not really; there's a lot of work behind the scenes in there. At any rate, there's one track less one sector on the smallest supported boot media. Right now that's 15-sector disks (1.2MB); it's not unreasonable to suggest that it might rise to 17 sectors at some stage, but not much likely to rise above that. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 04:24:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05569 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 04:24:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05554; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 04:23:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA02770; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 04:23:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711081223.EAA02770@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Stefan Esser cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Seagate Cheetah performance... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 11:45:21 +0100." <19971108114521.06151@mi.uni-koeln.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 04:23:50 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I have 48MB of main memory since I am mostly concerned with comparing my IDE driver to my scsi drive the 96MB file size for Bonnie should be okay. This is on my Scsi Seagate Cheetah 4.3gb (10000 rpms) bonnie -s 96 File './Bonnie.2607', size: 100663296 Writing with putc()...done Rewriting...done Writing intelligently...done Reading with getc()...done Reading intelligently...done Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 96 9536 87.8 9446 28.7 3997 13.8 4464 91.5 11518 19.3 163.8 3.3 This on my Ultra DMA IDE drive 3.1Gb -- I think is a fujitsu drive. bonnie -s 96 File './Bonnie.2631', size: 100663296 Writing with putc()...done Rewriting...done Writing intelligently...done Reading with getc()...done Reading intelligently...done Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 96 5812 52.7 5769 15.2 2166 6.5 5704 56.5 5746 10.1 81.4 1.6 > On 1997-11-07 22:26 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Well, > > > > I found a way to nearly double my performance: > > > > > > iozone 48 > > > > IOZONE: Performance Test of Sequential File I/O -- V2.01 (10/21/94) > > By Bill Norcott > > > > Operating System: FreeBSD 2.x -- using fsync() > > > > Send comments to: b_norcott@xway.com > > > > IOZONE writes a 48 Megabyte sequential file consisting of > > 98304 records which are each 512 bytes in length. > ^^^^^^^^^ This is where > your problem originates! > > Reading 512 byte blocks is not a typical situation at all ... > > > It then reads the file. It prints the bytes-per-second > > rate at which the computer can read and write files. > > > > > > Writing the 48 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...5.523438 seconds > > Reading the file...4.921875 seconds > > > > IOZONE performance measurements: > > 9112377 bytes/second for writing the file > > 10226112 bytes/second for reading the file > > This is > 20000 SCSI commands ! SCSI overhead must be lower than 50us ! > Wow! What are you complaining about ? :-) > > > > Any tweaking that I do to improve the performance of my : > > > type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > > > > > > iozone 48 > > > > IOZONE performance measurements: > > > 5418377 bytes/second for writing the file > > > 7828008 bytes/second for reading the file > > Again: You are using a much to small transfer rate ! > > > > My Ultra DMA IDE disk generates about 8MB/sec for writing . > > IDE overhead is much smaller than SCSI, there is no arbitration > for a shared bus, for example. > > > Please test all three drives with Bonnie. Use a test file at > least twice as much as your system's RAM, and report your > findings ... > > You'll get a different picture, I assume ! > > Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 04:33:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05845 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 04:33:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05839; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 04:33:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA02814; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 04:33:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711081233.EAA02814@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Gordon Henderson cc: Stefan Esser , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Seagate Cheetah performance... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 11:42:41 GMT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 04:33:27 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I think I now have my answer: dd if=/dev/rsd0f of=/dev/null bs=16k ^C41776+0 records in 41776+0 records out 684457984 bytes transferred in 51.149338 secs (13381561 bytes/sec) dd if=/dev/rwd0f of=/dev/null bs=16k ^C15902+0 records in 15902+0 records out 260538368 bytes transferred in 32.176591 secs (8097140 bytes/sec) The magic in my case was to fine tune my scsi adapter: options AHC_TAGENABLE options AHC_SCBPAGING_ENABLE options AHC_ALLOW_MEMIO Hope that this is an FAQ for web servers or file server configurations Amancio > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Stefan Esser wrote: > > > Please test all three drives with Bonnie. Use a test file at > > least twice as much as your system's RAM, and report your > > findings ... > > > > You'll get a different picture, I assume ! > > As Stefan says, you have to use a test file size more than your memory > system has, and the bigger the better, and bonnie is fairly universally > accepted, isn't it? > > To show you how misleading things can be, when a memory cache gets in the > way, heres a bonnie outout on a 32MB file (on a 256MB machine) > > -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- > -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- > MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU > 32 6321 96.0 26077 76.1 14800 91.8 6127 94.8 40595 94.4 3320.7 90.0 > > 40MB/sec read rate! Impressive, huh? (interesting to note how innefficient > character reading/writing is over block reading/writing!) > > Is there a Bonnie that copes with > 2GB files yet? I'm using one that I've > had for several years now... > > Gordon > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 07:23:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11229 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:23:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from lists01.iafrica.com (lists01.iafrica.com [196.7.0.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11222 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:23:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.iafrica.com) Received: from axl.iafrica.com [196.31.1.167] by lists01.iafrica.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0xUCj4-0002M2-00; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:23:06 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Why doesn't /bin/echo use getopt? Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 17:23:21 +0200 Message-ID: <25358.879002601@axl.iafrica.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks, Trivial question: why doesn't src/bin/echo/echo.c use getopt? echo.c: /* This utility may NOT do getopt(3) option parsing. */ At first I thought it might be because of a "library dependance at boot time" issue, but other src/bin goodies _do_ use getopt. It's obviously some historical thing born out of some terrible flamewar and I'm interested to know what happened. Thanks, Sheldon. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 08:04:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12535 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12530 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberte@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.8.5/8.8.4) id RAA00403; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:04:04 +0100 (MEZ) From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199711081604.RAA00403@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463B053.2781E494@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Nov 7, 97 04:20:35 pm" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:04:04 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: roberte@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de, dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It was Julian Elischer who wrote: > Robert Eckardt wrote: > > Just tested: > > CPU: Pentium (133.64-MHz 586-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 > > Features=0x1bf > > > > It crashes (just lost my most recent mailbox, though I had synced!). > > This is 2.2.2-RELEASE. BTW, the mail folder contains now parts of two web pages in netscape, which I had exited much earlier. > > I also tested DOS-6.2 w/ TurboC-2.0 > > in 8088/8086-model it still reacts on Numlock and Ctrl-Alt-Del. > > in 80186/80286-mode it crashes too. > > in 8086 mode, does adding a '0xc3' on the end of the sequence make > any difference? Nes. Let denote "C" compilation with TC, "1" a full crash (i.e. no reaction at all), "0" Numlock and Ctrl-Alt-Del work, "c" cold boot, "w" warm boot. Then I found the wollowing pattern: C 1 c 0 w 0 w... C 1 c 0 w 0 w It seems that it depends on what is in memory. It crashed completely when I had used TC first. Robert -- Robert Eckardt \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm) RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\ What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm) http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 09:32:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14837 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:32:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14832 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:32:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberte@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.8.5/8.8.4) id SAA00522; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:32:27 +0100 (MEZ) From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199711081732.SAA00522@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: from alex fuchsstadt at "Nov 8, 97 01:54:29 am" To: afuchs@totum.plaut.de (alex fuchsstadt) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:32:27 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: jas@flyingfox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It was alex fuchsstadt who wrote: > Apropos Intel, what about the FreeBSD Alpha-stuff? > Time to change...? Intel just got the "Alpha technology" from DEC and DEC will buy chips from intel. You know what to expect ? ... ;-) Robert -- Robert Eckardt \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm) RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\ What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm) http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 10:10:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16314 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:10:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16298 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:10:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fhackers@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1024312; 8 Nov 97 18:01 GMT Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15554; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:58:35 GMT (envelope-from fhackers) Message-ID: <19971108175832.31362@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:58:32 +0000 From: James Raynard To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why doesn't /bin/echo use getopt? References: <25358.879002601@axl.iafrica.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <25358.879002601@axl.iafrica.com>; from Sheldon Hearn on Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 05:23:21PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Nov 08, 1997 at 05:23:21PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > Trivial question: why doesn't src/bin/echo/echo.c use getopt? > > echo.c: /* This utility may NOT do getopt(3) option parsing. */ Because it's supposed to repeat its arguments instead of parse them? (with the exception of -n, of course). -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 12:05:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21371 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:05:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21366 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:05:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA01747; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:06:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711082006.MAA01747@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Robert Eckardt Cc: afuchs@totum.plaut.de (alex fuchsstadt), jas@flyingfox.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 12:06:33 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:32:27 +0100 (MEZ) Robert Eckardt wrote: > Intel just got the "Alpha technology" from DEC > and DEC will buy chips from intel. ..Samsung also makes Alpha processors. IIRC, DEC retains rights on the Alpha, Intel has _licensed_ some of the patented Alpha technology, and Intel has acquired the fabs where the Alpha is produced.. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 415 428 6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 13:00:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23418 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:00:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23410 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:00:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29674; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:58:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd029672; Sat Nov 8 12:58:10 1997 Message-ID: <3464D1F5.2781E494@whistle.com> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 12:56:21 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Eckardt CC: dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711081604.RAA00403@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robert Eckardt wrote: > > > > Let denote "C" compilation with TC, > "1" a full crash (i.e. no reaction at all), > "0" Numlock and Ctrl-Alt-Del work, > "c" cold boot, > "w" warm boot. > Then I found the wollowing pattern: C 1 c 0 w 0 w... C 1 c 0 w 0 w > > It seems that it depends on what is in memory. > It crashed completely when I had used TC first. > That makes sense, as the bug involes the bus-lock operation The bus lock operation is invoked when a cache line of page TLB operation is enacted. If a page is laready lleaded, or already in the instruction-cache, then it may not need to do a lock operation.. (or maybe it's the other way around/.... if the page is NOT alreay loaded it's OK :? anyway.. you may find that if you add "0xc3" to the end, the '0' entries go away. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 13:40:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25301 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25288 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:40:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@lakewood.com) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (ppp2.monmouth.com [205.164.220.34]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA09074; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id QAA22081 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:40:03 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199711082140.QAA22081@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: from Niall Smart at "Nov 6, 97 11:41:35 am" To: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:40:03 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Nov 5, 7:23pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > } Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? > > > > I have to say that my introduction to UNIX was via the games. > > [snip] > > > If you kill the games, you damage "recruitment". > > With all respect, studies show that only 1/100000 people install FreeBSD > to play text mode games. > > Niall > My wife's FreeBSD usage is mostly rogue and webmistress work... Guess which one takes more time! Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 732-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 13:43:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25445 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:43:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25439 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:43:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberte@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.8.5/8.8.4) id WAA00871; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:43:15 +0100 (MEZ) From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199711082143.WAA00871@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3464D1F5.2781E494@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Nov 8, 97 12:56:21 pm" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:43:15 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: roberte@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de, dec@phoenix.its.rpi.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It was Julian Elischer who wrote: > Robert Eckardt wrote: > > > > > > > > Let denote "C" compilation with TC, > > "1" a full crash (i.e. no reaction at all), > > "0" Numlock and Ctrl-Alt-Del work, > > "c" cold boot, > > "w" warm boot. > > Then I found the wollowing pattern: C 1 c 0 w 0 w... C 1 c 0 w 0 w > > > > It seems that it depends on what is in memory. > > It crashed completely when I had used TC first. > > > That makes sense, as the bug involes the bus-lock operation > The bus lock operation is invoked when a cache line of page TLB > operation is enacted. If a page is laready lleaded, or already in > the instruction-cache, then it may not need to do a lock operation.. > (or maybe it's the other way around/.... > if the page is NOT alreay loaded it's OK :? > anyway.. > you may find that if you add "0xc3" to the end, the '0' entries go away. That was already *with* the 0xc3 at the end. (x[] = { 0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, 0xc8, 0xc3 };) Robert -- Robert Eckardt \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm) RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\ What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm) http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 13:54:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25895 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:54:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from marcos.networkcs.com (marcos.networkcs.com [137.66.16.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25890 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:54:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alk@subtle.east.sun.com) Received: from uc.msc.edu (uc.msc.edu [137.66.1.3]) by marcos.networkcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28150; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:53:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from pobox.com (fergus-27.dialup.prtel.com [206.10.99.158]) by uc.msc.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04536; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:53:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from alk@localhost) by pobox.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA17326; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:30:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:30:51 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: alk@subtle.east.sun.com Message-Id: <199711082030.OAA17326@pobox.com> From: Tony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn To: jas@flyingfox.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ! Compared with the aforementioned ! floating-point bug, this seems like a much bigger deal. No, the FP bug was infinitely worse, because it would silently give wrong answers. You could crash the Thai Bhat by accident with an old Pentium chip. In this case, the machine is locked -- no one is going to misinterpret that. Indeed, a non-broken compiler would never emit the code. This is no worse than running Windows on a computer without the bug, right? In both cases, pathological code can lock the machine. And millions run Windows voluntarily -- or at least don't try hard enough to not run Windows in order to overcome the coercivity of the environment. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 14:30:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27615 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:30:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from unix.tfs.net (root@unix.tfs.net [199.79.146.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27598 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@argus.tfs.net) Received: from argus.tfs.net (node3.tfs.net [207.2.220.3]) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07903; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:28:38 -0600 Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus.tfs.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA04722; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:29:50 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199711082229.QAA04722@argus.tfs.net> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3463E1A7.DFFE15EB@ms11.hinet.net> from Doug Lo at "Nov 8, 97 11:51:03 am" To: jwlo@ms11.hinet.net (Doug Lo) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:29:50 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-to: jbryant@tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE #0: Wed Jul 9 01:01:24 CDT 1997 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Julian, > > I tried it. Also crashes. > > CPU: Pentium (132.96-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x526 Stepping=6 > Features=0x1bf > > BTW, would anyone tell me what these arguments mean(0xf0, 0x0f, 0xc7, > 0xc8)? i'm not sure about the source and destination regs, but the asm should be correct.... 1111 0000 0000 1111 1100 0111 1100 1000 F 0 0 F C 7 C 8 LOCK CMPXCHG8B------------- ESI? ESP? jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 14:55:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28792 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (k0Fra+4wI3+9RicEsQGHuS8Tonw2Roem@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28786 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:55:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak65.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.33.65] ([KPvY+uncr8XKX1Bifkm+yW+6epgxyUtu]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xUJnj-0006F9-00; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:56:23 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak65.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xUJmp-0000Y7-00; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:55:28 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:55:27 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: a.out format Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Don't suppose anyone knows how the "a.out" format got its name? Niall From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 15:34:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00595 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:34:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from coal.nis.newscorp.com (mxa.newscorp.com [206.15.105.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00479 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:32:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@multivac.narcissus.net) Received: from multivac.narcissus.net (ts2port21.port.net [207.38.248.149]) by coal.nis.newscorp.com (News Corp SMTP GW 1.1) with SMTP id SAA25473; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by multivac.narcissus.net (NX5.67e/NX3.0S) id AA00276; Sat, 8 Nov 97 18:30:07 -0400 Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:30:07 -0400 (GMT-0400) From: Snob Art Genre Reply-To: benedict@echonyc.com To: Niall Smart Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a.out format In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Assembler output. On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Niall Smart wrote: > Don't suppose anyone knows how the "a.out" format got its name? > > Niall > > Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 17:07:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04045 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:07:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04039 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0xULqE-0003Sb-00; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:07:06 -0700 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.7/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA15626; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:07:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711090107.SAA15626@harmony.village.org> To: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Subject: Re: a.out format Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 22:55:27 GMT." References: Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 18:07:21 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Niall Smart writes: : Don't suppose anyone knows how the "a.out" format got its name? "ld foo.o" used to produce (and still does) a file called a.out by default. It used to be the only format. Now, that there are others, you gotta call it something :-). Where the name a.out came from is generally believed to be short for "assembler output" but there has been some other rumors I've heard over the years. Kinda like .bss (which is supposedly from an old IBM op code for Blank Storage Section, which was all zeros, but I'm digressing). Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 17:24:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04731 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:24:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dog.farm.org (gw-hssi-2.farm.org [209.66.103.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04725 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:24:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dog.farm.org!dk) Received: (from dk@localhost) by dog.farm.org (8.7.5/dk#3) id RAA06763; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:25:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:25:12 -0800 (PST) From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk Message-Id: <199711090125.RAA06763@dog.farm.org> To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? Newsgroups: cs-monolit.gated.lists.freebsd.hackers Organization: FARM Computing Association Reply-To: dk+@ua.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <34644944.A4C78319@ix.netcom.com> you wrote: > > > Well, in the bad old days, I would probably have reached for Forth. > > > There is some precedent for this approach over at Sun... > > > > OpenBoot is big and expensive. btw, the complete specs for OpenBoot are avail on http://docs.sun.com/ > > > I could probably whip up a Forth metacompiler for FreeBSD pretty quickly > > > using PFE as the host. Just a thought. > > > > If you can roll a bootloader that uses just the BIOS and has a > > footprint around 7k, you'll have our attention... > > > > mike > Sounds doable... (Sound of mad scientist trundling off to basement) hmm, I wrote my bootloader for msdosfs floppies (so I can run netboot.com) abpout 2 years ago, and it fits into 512 bytes. I was using direct threaded code. It is avail for ftp; search archives for dkboot. -- "Now is the time for the quick brown fox to jump over the moon." - rblander@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 17:49:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05925 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05918 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:49:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09619 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:49:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:49:09 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199711090149.RAA09619@kithrup.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just got more mail from Robert Collins, who spoke with Intel yesterday and today. He says that Intel did not know about the bug until yesterday, and that it has never been fixed in any revision of the processor. Meanwhile, various news sources are picking up the story. ;) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 17:57:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06374 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:57:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06369 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:57:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rivers@dignus.com) Received: from ponds.dignus.com (ponds.vnet.net [166.82.177.48]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA09662; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from lakes.dignus.com (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.dignus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08130; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.dignus.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) id VAA05940; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:02:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:02:54 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199711090202.VAA05940@lakes.dignus.com> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: a.out format Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Don't suppose anyone knows how the "a.out" format got its name? > > Niall > Yes - I believe it derives it's name from the assembler. Which the linker usurped... At least, that's the story I heard... - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 18:33:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07682 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:33:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07671 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:32:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04084; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:57:25 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711090227.MAA04084@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: dk+@ua.net cc: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 17:25:12 -0800." <199711090125.RAA06763@dog.farm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 12:57:23 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In article <34644944.A4C78319@ix.netcom.com> you wrote: > > > > Well, in the bad old days, I would probably have reached for Forth. > > > > There is some precedent for this approach over at Sun... > > > > > > OpenBoot is big and expensive. > > btw, the complete specs for OpenBoot are avail on http://docs.sun.com/ Yeah, and you can buy it and training and whatnot from Firmworks. It's not usable in the PC environment, and IMHO sucks pretty outrageously anyway. > > > > I could probably whip up a Forth metacompiler for FreeBSD pretty quickly > > > > using PFE as the host. Just a thought. > > > > > > If you can roll a bootloader that uses just the BIOS and has a > > > footprint around 7k, you'll have our attention... > > > Sounds doable... (Sound of mad scientist trundling off to basement) > > hmm, I wrote my bootloader for msdosfs floppies (so I > can run netboot.com) abpout 2 years ago, and it fits into 512 bytes. Yeah. Now add UFS and bad144 support, serial and BIOS console support and the option parser. It ain't gonna look too small then. TBH, I'd *really* like to get the NetBSD bootloader building; it is a much nicer animal. mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 19:40:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10480 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from www2.shoppersnet.com (shoppersnet.com [204.156.152.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10473 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:40:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from digital@www2.shoppersnet.com) Received: (from digital@localhost) by www2.shoppersnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA15374; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:42:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:42:51 -0800 (PST) From: Howard Lew To: Tony Kimball cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711082030.OAA17326@pobox.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Tony Kimball wrote: > ! Compared with the aforementioned > ! floating-point bug, this seems like a much bigger deal. > > No, the FP bug was infinitely worse, because it would silently give > wrong answers. You could crash the Thai Bhat by accident with an old > Pentium chip. In this case, the machine is locked -- no one is going > to misinterpret that. Indeed, a non-broken compiler would never emit > the code. This is no worse than running Windows on a computer without > the bug, right? In both cases, pathological code can lock the > machine. And millions run Windows voluntarily -- or at least don't > try hard enough to not run Windows in order to overcome the coercivity > of the environment. > For Windows users this bug should not be much of a problem unless viruses start popping up taking advantage of the bug. For FreeBSD it is not very comforting to know that any misbehaving user can lock up your shell machine, but in a controlled environment this should not be a problem. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 20:38:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13102 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:38:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trojanhorse.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13097 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:38:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by trojanhorse.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA01005; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:37:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:37:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: Howard Lew cc: Tony Kimball , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is anybody making any demands from intel about this? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 20:38:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13122 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:38:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13113 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@FreeBSD.org) From: Julian Elischer Received: (from julian@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) id UAA26951 for hackers; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:36:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:36:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711090436.UAA26951@freefall.freebsd.org> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: How useful is this patch? Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In an application we have, several (many) naive PC and MAC users are using SAMBA, FTP, and NETATALK, to access a filesystem. (under FreeBSD) The problem is that there are cases where one unpriveliged user needs to put files in the 'home directories' of other users. This is OK as long as the owner of the directory can delete them. For single files this is the case, however when the other user needs to put a hierarchy of directories there, the poor owner of the original directory can't because the directories are owned by someone else, and they are not empty, so there is a catch 22, and they cannot be deleted. These users, as I said before are simplistic, there are thousands of them, and they (ALL OF THEM) don't like the answer "Oh that's the way UNIX works". it gets more complicated when you start adding .AppleDouble directories from netatalk, which may be created by an admin, using a MAC, but which are invisible to both the MAC and SAMBA users. They will be owned by the admin and the user can't see why he can't delete the directry. There are two answers. 1/ A CRAWLER that sets the ownerships of all user's directories contents to the user. Simple, but not immediate, and I don't think it's the right answer. 2/ A HACK to UFS. Here is the hack idea. if a mount option is specified, then setting the SUID bit on a directory specifies similar inheritance with UIDS as we presently have with GIDs. In other words, if the USER's home directory is SUID, then when user B places a hierarchy of files into USER A's directory, they become owned by user A. This corresponds exactly with how naive PC users expect things to work. "It's in my folder so it's mine" The SUID bits are hereditary to child directories, and a file 'given away' in this manner 1/ cannot be give n to root (would defeat quotas) 2/ has the execute bits stripped off (and suid) The advantage to this is that SAMBA and NETATALK, FTP and any other utilities one may think of, suddenly all start exhibiting 'DOS-USER friendly' behaviour, without needing to change and maintain those packages. It can also be turned on and off so that it would not be turned on in parts of the filesystem used by 'real' users. THOUGHTS PLEASE! (is it useful enough to add to the tree?) here's the patch. the first part is for making new directories, while the second part is for making new files. Index: ufs_vnops.c =================================================================== RCS file: /cvs/freebsd/src/sys/ufs/ufs/ufs_vnops.c,v retrieving revision 1.41.2.3 diff -c -r1.41.2.3 ufs_vnops.c *** 1.41.2.3 1997/06/29 08:48:50 --- ufs_vnops.c 1997/11/09 03:58:50 *************** *** 1301,1308 **** if (error) goto out; ip = VTOI(tvp); - ip->i_uid = cnp->cn_cred->cr_uid; ip->i_gid = dp->i_gid; #ifdef QUOTA if ((error = getinoquota(ip)) || (error = chkiq(ip, 1, cnp->cn_cred, 0))) { --- 1301,1358 ---- if (error) goto out; ip = VTOI(tvp); ip->i_gid = dp->i_gid; + #ifdef USE_SUIDDIR + { + #ifdef QUOTA + struct ucred ucred, *ucp; + ucp = cnp->cn_cred + #endif I + /* + * if we are hacking owners here, (only do this where told to) + * and we are not giving it TOO root, (would subvert quotas) + * then go ahead and give it to the other user. + * The new directory also inherits the SUID bit. + * If user's UID an ddir UID are the same, + * 'give it away' so that the SUID is still forced on. + */ + if ( (dvp->v_mount->mnt_flag & MNT_SUIDDIR) + && (dp->i_mode & ISUID) + && dp->i_uid) { + dmode |= ISUID; + ip->i_uid = dp->i_uid; + #ifdef QUOTA + if (pdir->i_uid != cnp->cn_cred->cr_uid) { + /* + * make sure the correct user gets charged + * for the space. + * Make a dummy credential for the victim. + * XXX This seems to never be accessed out of + * our context so a stack variable is ok. + */ + ucred.cr_ref = 1 + ucred.cr_uid = ip->i_uid; + ucred.cr_ngroups = 1 + ucred.cr_groups[0] = dp->i_gid; + ucp = *ucred; + } + #endif I + } else { + ip->i_uid = cnp->cn_cred->cr_uid; + } + #ifdef QUOTA + if ((error = getinoquota(ip)) || + (error = chkiq(ip, 1, ucp, 0))) { + free(cnp->cn_pnbuf, M_NAMEI); + VOP_VFREE(tvp, ip->i_number, dmode); + vput(tvp); + vput(dvp); + return (error); + } + #endif + } + #else + ip->i_uid = cnp->cn_cred->cr_uid; #ifdef QUOTA if ((error = getinoquota(ip)) || (error = chkiq(ip, 1, cnp->cn_cred, 0))) { *************** *** 1313,1318 **** --- 1364,1370 ---- return (error); } #endif + #endif ip->i_flag |= IN_ACCESS | IN_CHANGE | IN_UPDATE; ip->i_mode = dmode; tvp->v_type = VDIR; /* Rest init'd in getnewvnode(). */ *************** *** 2131,2136 **** --- 2183,2238 ---- } ip = VTOI(tvp); ip->i_gid = pdir->i_gid; + #ifdef USE_SUIDDIR + { + #ifdef QUOTA + struct ucred ucred, *ucp; + ucp = cnp->cn_cred + #endif I + /* + * if we are + * not the owner of the directory, + * and we are hacking owners here, (only do this where told to) + * and we are not giving it TOO root, (would subvert quotas) + * then go ahead and give it to the other user. + * Note that this drops off the execute bits for security. + */ + if ( (dvp->v_mount->mnt_flag & MNT_SUIDDIR) + && (pdir->i_mode & ISUID) + && (pdir->i_uid != cnp->cn_cred->cr_uid) + && pdir->i_uid) { + ip->i_uid = pdir->i_uid; + mode &= ~07111; + #ifdef QUOTA + /* + * make sure the correct user gets charged + * for the space. + * Quickly knock up a dummy credential for the victim. + * XXX This seems to never be accessed out of our + * context so a stack variable is ok. + */ + ucred.cr_ref = 1 + ucred.cr_uid = ip->i_uid; + ucred.cr_ngroups = 1 + ucred.cr_groups[0] = pdir->i_gid; + ucp = *ucred; + #endif I + } else { + ip->i_uid = cnp->cn_cred->cr_uid; + } + + #ifdef QUOTA + if ((error = getinoquota(ip)) || + (error = chkiq(ip, 1, ucp, 0))) { + free(cnp->cn_pnbuf, M_NAMEI); + VOP_VFREE(tvp, ip->i_number, mode); + vput(tvp); + vput(dvp); + return (error); + } + #endif + } + #else ip->i_uid = cnp->cn_cred->cr_uid; #ifdef QUOTA if ((error = getinoquota(ip)) || *************** *** 2141,2146 **** --- 2244,2250 ---- vput(dvp); return (error); } + #endif #endif ip->i_flag |= IN_ACCESS | IN_CHANGE | IN_UPDATE; ip->i_mode = mode; ...--end-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 21:07:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14278 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:07:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14269 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:07:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if2-29.ida.net [208.141.171.86]) by srv.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA06579; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:07:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:06:59 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Howard Lew cc: Tony Kimball , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Howard Lew wrote: > > For Windows users this bug should not be much of a problem unless viruses > start popping up taking advantage of the bug. For FreeBSD it is not very > comforting to know that any misbehaving user can lock up your shell > machine, but in a controlled environment this should not be a problem. > Possibly also systems where users are allowed to put executable CGI-invoked code on their web pages (although usually such users also have shell accounts). This could be bad for Intel. I think that there is a limited subset of Pentium owners which now have a *very* strong incentive to obtain replacement chips or go to alternate vendors (AMD or IDT). -- Charles Mott P.S. Have any FreeBSD users tried out the new IDT chip? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 21:12:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14630 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:12:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from ccsales.ccsales.com (ccsales.ccsales.com [207.137.172.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14625; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:12:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from randyk@ccsales.com) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:17:06 -0800 (PST) From: Randy Katz To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: VIEWING / PERMS-OWNER Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Is there any way to view the permissions on the "/" directory? And to view the ownership/group on it? Thanx, Randy Katz From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 21:20:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15082 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:20:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from trojanhorse.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15066 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:20:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by trojanhorse.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01098; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:20:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:20:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: dufault@hda.com cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: LabPC+ Driver Specifics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am currently in the process of writing a driver for an analog input board and am using your labpc driver as an example (I have a labpc also). I am kind of curious about your buffer management. It appears that you are using the onboard fifo for buffering and depending on the user to make bio buffers available for writing out the fifo once they open the device. If they don't make buffers available frequently enough through read() then you have a problem. Here are some questions I have, because I think your driver is good example and I don't feel a need to make any unnecessary mistakes in design that conversing with you could save me. One thing is the AD_MICRO_PERIOD_SET, does that change the frequency for the entire board or just one channel. Is that general enough? In my case I have 128 channels so It is going to get pretty complex managing 128 channels at 128 different frequencies (with one clock). Secondly, I don't have a fifo, however I have interrupts driven through a 8253 chain. I assume than the best thing is for me to pick a decent fifo size and manage it like the labpc hardware manages its fifo. Would that be like 512*(128/8) = 8kb? The particular board is not capable of more than 30000 samples/s. I was thinking of implementing an AD_START and AD_STOP ioctls(), or am I missing something? I noticed , it looks like your chaining together buffers passed to your strategy routine. Can you breifly explain what is going on there with tqe.next (b_actf), I realize this is part of the queue management MACROS, but I don't think you are actually using those. I just want a qualitative description since I am pretty unclear on the hardware level stuff of the labpc. If your ad channels just start spewing when you open, then why don't you implement readselect, why just leave it to seltrue? If your trying to read all 8 channels this just might be useful to determine which order. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 21:58:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16563 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:58:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user5248@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16557 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:58:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 9 Nov 1997 06:04:18 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:04:18 -0700 (MST) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: Charles Mott cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: IDT processors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > also have shell accounts). > > This could be bad for Intel. I think that there is a limited > subset of Pentium owners which now have a *very* strong incentive > to obtain replacement chips or go to alternate vendors (AMD or > IDT). > > P.S. Have any FreeBSD users tried out the new IDT chip? What/Who is IDT? I heard about some So. CA startup company using the SGS/Thompson Fab. Is that them? I really doubt the contingent that is affected by this bug would be likely to trust a no-name chip. The whole point is reliability... I would not put mission critial servers on AMD K6 or any Cyrix. There is no vestal virgin in the X86 market. Intel is still the best of the bunch for reliability. Kevin From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 22:03:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16751 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:03:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16732; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:03:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id XAA03890; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:03:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA17291; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:09:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:09:12 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Randy Katz cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VIEWING / PERMS-OWNER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This should only be sent to questions, not hackers. It is very seldom appropriate to crosspost anything between hackers and questions. "ls -ld /" will do what you want. On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Randy Katz wrote: > Hi, > > Is there any way to view the permissions on the "/" directory? And to > view the ownership/group on it? > > Thanx, > Randy Katz > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 22:09:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17177 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:09:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17143; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:09:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA19613; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:11:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711090611.WAA19613@implode.root.com> To: Randy Katz cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VIEWING / PERMS-OWNER In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:17:06 PST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 22:11:15 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Is there any way to view the permissions on the "/" directory? And to >view the ownership/group on it? ls -l / ...and look at the "." entry, or: ls -ld / -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 22:34:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18222 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:34:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18202; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA25882; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:31:37 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:31:36 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: Randy Katz cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VIEWING / PERMS-OWNER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Randy Katz wrote: > Hi, > > Is there any way to view the permissions on the "/" directory? And to > view the ownership/group on it? ls -al / The return will have a file "." which is the / filesystem. > > Thanx, > Randy Katz > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 22:52:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19116 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19111 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA24398; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:50:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga16-07.ix.netcom.com(204.32.174.135) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024388; Sun Nov 9 00:50:05 1997 Message-ID: <34655D0A.F0DCFF37@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 01:49:46 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atipa CC: Charles Mott , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDT processors? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Atipa wrote: > > > also have shell accounts). > > > > This could be bad for Intel. I think that there is a limited > > subset of Pentium owners which now have a *very* strong incentive > > to obtain replacement chips or go to alternate vendors (AMD or > > IDT). > > > > P.S. Have any FreeBSD users tried out the new IDT chip? > > What/Who is IDT? I heard about some So. CA startup company using the > SGS/Thompson Fab. Is that them? > > I really doubt the contingent that is affected by this bug would be > likely to trust a no-name chip. The whole point is reliability... > > I would not put mission critial servers on AMD K6 or any Cyrix. There is > no vestal virgin in the X86 market. Intel is still the best of the bunch > for reliability. > > Kevin Naw, IDT has been around for some time. They've been doing MIPS processors for a while. They are a premier company well known among developers of bit-slice systems too, having some hard to find FIFO parts and such. I wouldn't mind using their components if IDT sez they work. They've always been a pretty credible bunch for us. Cheers! Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com ( back to the basement, mumbling something unintelligible :) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Nov 8 23:53:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21259 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21249 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:53:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA08462; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:53:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd008455; Sun Nov 9 00:53:22 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA17086; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:53:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711090753.AAA17086@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: >64MB To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:53:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, mike@smith.net.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971106141214.006d5438@bugs.us.dell.com> from "Tony Overfield" at Nov 6, 97 02:12:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I can't tell, but I think you're talking about one of these: > > 1. ... switching to protected mode, setting larger segment limits > and then switching back to real mode. > > It's very unlikely that you have anything in your config.sys > that uses this trick. There's no benefit to using it, and > there are serious compatibility problems with it. > > 2. ... the real mode trick of using FFFF:xxxx addressing. > > This lets you address up to 64K-16 bytes of memory above 1M in > real mode. Protected mode is not needed to enable or use this > trick. It is completely inadequate for loading a kernel. In > DOS, this is called the HMA "high memory area". It is used > when use have DOS=HIGH in your config.sys, as one example. > > 3. Something else. > If so, please state it more clearly. 3. Something else. A) Switch to protected mode. B) Set up a TSS and call gate. C) Set up a memory map for real mode, excluding the last 64k in the 640k->1M window. For it, you leave it unmapped. D) Set up a data area below the 64k that the code stores what area of high memory you want to access. E) "Return" to real mode by calling through the gate. F) When you need to access a 64k chunk abouve 1M, set which one you want in the data area, and then access it as if it were in the 64k region. G) Take the fault in protected mode. Examine the data region. Map the desired region in the Real mode last 64k. Return. This is not quite trivial, but it's not quite impossible, either. Many memory managers (even DOS ones) do it every day. There are several other you can do using suspend/resume instructions and similar tricks (documented in the Van Gilluwe book -- I assume that's what you were referring to in #1? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers.