From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 00:34:49 1998
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley License
In-Reply-To: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "May 2, 98 09:18:49 pm"
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 02:34:37 -0500 (EST)
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Brett Glass said:
> I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating
> the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however,
> are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general.
>
> I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the
> awareness
> level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative
> point of view. That's where the benefit comes in.
>
My suggestion (I don't have time to flamewar right now) is to extoll the
virtues of a license that is both commercial and free friendly. One
cannot win a discussion regarding the disadvantages of the GPL license,
simply due to the fact that it *does* have problems, and no matter what
reality is -- the real issues will be ignored.
Whatever ones social and economic views are -- GPL is at a great
commercial disadvantage (CDROM and other companies whose business
is to *copy* the software only, notwithstanding.)
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:10:26 1998
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Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:09:58 +1000
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
"Kenneth P. Stox" <ken@stox.sa.enteract.com>,
Chris Swinford <cdswin0@pop.uky.edu>, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Slogan
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980430200542.572J-100000@m4.stox.sa.enteract.com> <25585.894003391@time.cdrom.com> <19980501155416.A27630@freebie.lemis.com>
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On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 03:54:16PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Thu, 30 April 1998 at 23:16:31 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> >> Besides, I think the Philip Morris company might object to this slogan.
> >> ( For the non-smokers out there, Veni - Vidi - Vici, is part of their
> >> corporate logo. )
> >
> > How about "Veni - Vidi - Coiti" then?
>
> You always get things round the wrong way.
>
> Vidi - Coiti - Veni
OK, I give up. What does Coiti mean?
--
Regards,
-*Sue*-
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:16:35 1998
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Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:46:16 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
"Kenneth P. Stox" <ken@stox.sa.enteract.com>,
Chris Swinford <cdswin0@pop.uky.edu>, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Slogan
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980430200542.572J-100000@m4.stox.sa.enteract.com> <25585.894003391@time.cdrom.com> <19980501155416.A27630@freebie.lemis.com> <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au>
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In-Reply-To: <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 07:09:58PM +1000
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On Sun, 3 May 1998 at 19:09:58 +1000, Sue Blake wrote:
> On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 03:54:16PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 April 1998 at 23:16:31 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>>>> Besides, I think the Philip Morris company might object to this slogan.
>>>> ( For the non-smokers out there, Veni - Vidi - Vici, is part of their
>>>> corporate logo. )
>>>
>>> How about "Veni - Vidi - Coiti" then?
>>
>> You always get things round the wrong way.
>>
>> Vidi - Coiti - Veni
>
> OK, I give up. What does Coiti mean?
Yes, I was wondering about this, too. You would probably recognize it
more readily as "coii", but strictly Jordan is right, so I didn't
belabour the point.
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:16:59 1998
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To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
cc: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
"Kenneth P. Stox" <ken@stox.sa.enteract.com>,
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Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 11:16:37 +0200
From: Mark Murray <mark@grondar.za>
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Sue Blake wrote:
> > Vidi - Coiti - Veni
>
> OK, I give up. What does Coiti mean?
"I bonked" :-)
M
--
Mark Murray
Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:25:32 1998
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Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:55:19 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
"Kenneth P. Stox" <ken@stox.sa.enteract.com>,
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Subject: Re: Slogan
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980430200542.572J-100000@m4.stox.sa.enteract.com> <25585.894003391@time.cdrom.com> <19980501155416.A27630@freebie.lemis.com> <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au>
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On Sun, 3 May 1998 at 19:09:58 +1000, Sue Blake wrote:
> On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 03:54:16PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 April 1998 at 23:16:31 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>>>> Besides, I think the Philip Morris company might object to this slogan.
>>>> ( For the non-smokers out there, Veni - Vidi - Vici, is part of their
>>>> corporate logo. )
>>>
>>> How about "Veni - Vidi - Coiti" then?
>>
>> You always get things round the wrong way.
>>
>> Vidi - Coiti - Veni
>
> OK, I give up. What does Coiti mean?
I take that last message back. It's either "coii" or "coivi".
"coiti" is derived from the supine ("coitum"), but I can't see what
meaning it would have in the masculine. In the passive, of course,
("coitus sum"), it's an indication that you have just installed
Microsoft software.
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:56:26 1998
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Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 04:54:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Phillip Salzman <advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org>
To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: re: slogan
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Here is a simple slogan to destory the linux one:
"FreeBSD - An OS for an Advanced Generation"
----
Phillip Salzman eclipse@gulf.net
"With One"
http://saten.dyn.ml.org http://gulf.net/~eclipse/
http://www.gulftel.com/~eclipse/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 03:31:46 1998
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From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: "Anthony C. Chavez" <misfit@xmission.com>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD sticker (please read) (was Re: FreeBSD * slogans*)
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I'd go to www.iprint.com
Create a FreeBSD mug, FreeBSD sticker and FreeBSD t-shirt online
yourself. :)
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux -- DOS of the Unix world.
On 2 May 1998, Anthony C. Chavez wrote:
>Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net> writes:
>
>> MS - where do you want to go today?
>> FreeBSD - Been there done that.. Next..
>
>I like this one the best, but I'd have to say that a "plain" bumper sticker
>with the standard "Powered by FreeBSD" (with the lovely picture of Chuck that
>we are all familiar with) would look PERFECT on my 4x4 (right next to the
>"And God said... <Maxwell's Equations> ... and then there was LIGHT!" sticker).
>
>In other words, I'd like the (official?) "Powered by FreeBSD" sticker the best.
>:-)
>
>--- Important part follows ---
>
>I recently spoke with a company (Pegasus Publishing, http://www.bab.com/) that
>prints bumper stickers, and they said that they would be willing to make
>FreeBSD stickers. I got permission from McKusick (or however you spell his
>name) to print the exact sticker I mentioned above (Powered by FreeBSD) to make
>10 for personal use (not for sale), but was unable to hunt down a suitable
>graphic on the WWW (or anywhere else). I'm sure getting his permission to
>print stickers for sale won't be a problem.
>
>They need a very high resolution graphic that is fairly large. I have the
>exact dimensions in another mailbox. If anyone would like me to post them, let
>me know.
>
>PLUG: Go to Pegasus' web page! They have lots of really cool stuff for sale.
>Cthulhu/Lovecraft, role-playing/fantasy, and all sorts of other memorabilia for
>the hard-core geek. Not just stickers but t-shirts and other junk. Enjoy.
>
>--
>Anthony C. Chavez <misfit@xmission.com>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 05:51:51 1998
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: Slogan
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 18:55:19 +0930."
<19980503185519.V356@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 05:50:25 -0700
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> I take that last message back. It's either "coii" or "coivi".
The irony, of course, is that more people probably got the
joke with incorrect latin as would have gotten it without. :)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 12:49:00 1998
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Yes, I'm doing so (reading README's). First off, none of the questions I
raise are covered there. It explains _technically_ what happens, but not
_actually_, and how to recover when it fails. It also doesn't tell you
anything about filenames.txt, it doesn't explain the CD layout, or
explain to a non-unix person what you are talking about. Oh, it's not
there? Why not? What DO I do?
Second off, since the CD autoboots, very few will actually get to the
README's before being launched into the install.
Doesn't change the essential point, though. I'm not saying I shouldn't
have looked (Doh!) but it is not fair to say "it's in there". The world
of Internet users (and CD users) is a lot wider than it used to be, and
we need to move to the next level. I've been in the computer business
for 15+ years, Jordan. I have a 140+ IQ. It bit me despite that. Let's
agree that we need to move it up a few notches, and get to it.
--> Don
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 12:49:02 1998
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From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: Slogan
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980430200542.572J-100000@m4.stox.sa.enteract.com> <25585.894003391@time.cdrom.com> <19980501155416.A27630@freebie.lemis.com> <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au> <19980503185519.V356@freebie.lemis.com>
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Greg Lehey wrote:
> I take that last message back. It's either "coii" or "coivi".
> "coiti" is derived from the supine ("coitum"), but I can't see what
> meaning it would have in the masculine. In the passive, of course,
> ("coitus sum"), it's an indication that you have just installed
> Microsoft software.
Which goes with what I thought was the meaning, like the medical sex
term 'coitus', as in "I've been f***ed!"
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 13:51:56 1998
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Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 13:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
To: Joey Garcia <bear@pacificnet.net>
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>,
Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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On 01-May-98 Joey Garcia wisely wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote:
>
>> We have a shot at the server market, but unless we add to our appeal to
>> the desktop set by improving ppp and printer setup and building our own
>> office suite, we will remain a niche OS. That's why I take Jordan's
>> comments to heart about carefully approaching the Popular Science crowd
>> with inteesting articles, and why I want to make a Dummy's FreeBSD Demo.
>> --> Don
>>
> The server market is a great idea, although it would be a good idea to
> remind people that FreeBSD is a great workstation as well. Those that see
> FreeBSD as a "server only" OS might be turned off if all they want is a
> powerful workstation. I believe we should hit both crowds (server people
> and workstation people) with equal emphasis, or perhaps just a bit more
> emphasis on the server side. Do you guys agree?
>
> Joey Bear Garcia
>
>
I don't think that the workstation part is a big deal. I have come to belive th
at it is all how good it is, how much will run on it and the NAME.
I just got the word that the company I work for wants to start incorporating mo
re SUN machines and maybe even Linux systems becouse:
1) They want business users to see a Name they know.
2) Most Big Name commerce applications are not available for FreeBSD
3) They don't feel customers would feel comfortable having their commerce sites
on an OS they don't know and a machine without a brand name (since I build our o
wn)
Lets face it the big NAMES these days are NT, SUN, and now Linux :<
One of the biggest things that could be done is to do more marketing and perhap
s expand the web pages showing who uses FreeBSD. These expanded pages featuring
companies could be used as a marketing tool in the press and by users like mysel
f in convincing the suits who feel Flash is more important than quality and usea
bility.
Perhaps:
Company(w/URL) - what company does - #of machines - what machines do - contact
name
Just a wild suggestion.
Nicole
nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/
webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 14:20:42 1998
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Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 14:20:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
To: (Anthony C. Chavez) <misfit@xmission.com>
Subject: RE: FreeBSD sticker (please read) (was Re: FreeBSD * slogans*)
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 02-May-98 Anthony C. Chavez wisely wrote:
> Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net> writes:
>
>> MS - where do you want to go today?
>> FreeBSD - Been there done that.. Next..
>
> I like this one the best, but I'd have to say that a "plain" bumper sticker
> with the standard "Powered by FreeBSD" (with the lovely picture of Chuck that
> we are all familiar with) would look PERFECT on my 4x4 (right next to the
> "And God said... <Maxwell's Equations> ... and then there was LIGHT!"
> sticker).
>
> In other words, I'd like the (official?) "Powered by FreeBSD" sticker the
> best.
>:-)
>
Yes, I would very much like a Powered sticker! Of course I have another cute v
ariation...
If it's not Powered by FreeBSD, The batteries aren't included!
Nicole
> --- Important part follows ---
>
> I recently spoke with a company (Pegasus Publishing, http://www.bab.com/)
> that
> prints bumper stickers, and they said that they would be willing to make
> FreeBSD stickers. I got permission from McKusick (or however you spell his
> name) to print the exact sticker I mentioned above (Powered by FreeBSD) to
> make
> 10 for personal use (not for sale), but was unable to hunt down a suitable
> graphic on the WWW (or anywhere else). I'm sure getting his permission to
> print stickers for sale won't be a problem.
>
> They need a very high resolution graphic that is fairly large. I have the
> exact dimensions in another mailbox. If anyone would like me to post them,
> let
> me know.
>
> PLUG: Go to Pegasus' web page! They have lots of really cool stuff for sale.
> Cthulhu/Lovecraft, role-playing/fantasy, and all sorts of other memorabilia
> for
> the hard-core geek. Not just stickers but t-shirts and other junk. Enjoy.
>
> --
> Anthony C. Chavez <misfit@xmission.com>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 14:40:12 1998
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Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
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On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote:
> I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating
> the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however,
> are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general.
>
> I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the
> awareness
> level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative
> point of view. That's where the benefit comes in.
>
> --Brett
I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h
ow true it is..
Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs
d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc)
and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s
tate that it was FreeBSD.
Any comments?
Nicole
>
> P.S. -- I'm cross-posting this one reply to both lists, but further
> discussion
> probably shouldn't be.
>
> At 11:51 AM 5/3/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 2 May 1998 at 18:25:47 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
>>> As usual, a group of GPL zealots have gotten loose in an InfoWorld forum,
>>> claiming that RMS is nothing less than a saint and that the GPL is The One
>>> True Way. They're also trashing FreeBSD and the Berkeley-style license
>>> quite a bit. Some folks from this list might care to join in.... In fact, I
>>> think they should, as previous discussions on the InfoWorld forums have
>>> raised FreeBSD's profile. The URL for the discussion is
>>>
>>> http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767
>>>
>>> You can read the messages without registering, but need to fill out a short
>>> registration form to post. (From what I can tell, you don't have to give
>>> much -- or accurate -- information on the form.)
>>
>>Copying (and following-up to) advocacy. This seems a better forum.
>>
>>Well, speech is free, but I don't think you'll get much satisfaction
>>fighting a bunch of people who see things differently. Having said
>>that, of course, I'd have a hard time suggesting that you stop :-)
>>
>>I don't think that it's a good idea to get FreeBSD's name too involved
>>in this kind of discussion, though. It'll just give the zealots more
>>ammunition. (I don't know if you *do* mention FreeBSD--I haven't had
>>time to read all the messages.
>>
>>Greg
>>--
>>See complete headers for address and phone numbers
>>finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
>>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 14:41:08 1998
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Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: Kris Kirby <kris@airnet.net>
cc: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD versus LINUX
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Just like my .sig said all this time. :)
Yet, we are better to have Linux then Windows.
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux -- DOS of the Unix world.
On Sat, 2 May 1998, Kris Kirby wrote:
>John Kelly wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:30:41 -0500 (CDT), Frank Pawlak
>> <fpawlak@execpc.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In answering the question as I did, I was trying to provide some
>> >information to persons that were switching from Linux to FreeBSD and
>> >asking for information on the differences between them, and quite
>> >frankly were given bullshit for an answer.
>>
>> I don't think so. Take of poll of all ISP's running either of the
>> two, and I think you'll find that the vast majority prefer FreeBSD
>> instead of Linux. My statement stands. "Amateurs like Linux, but
>> professionals prefer FreeBSD."
>
>I just returned from a 3rd-12th grade technology conference. I found
>Windows 95 in abudance. The machines that weren't running 95 were
>dual-booting (with LILO) to Linux. When commenting about FreeBSD, one
>person told me quite bluntly: "I'm not down with that FreeBSD shit." For
>those of you unaccustomed to the many ideosyncracies of the English
>language, he is saying that he doesn't like FreeBSD, and expresses no
>future interest in it. But his main point was being able to configure
>everything from X. What does he think this is Windows 95 or UN*X?! I
>*really* felt bad for not bringing my machine (with the numerous pics of
>Chuck. :)) What I saw when Linux was booting I did not like. It reminded
>me *too* much of DOS. I now firmly believe that Linux is the Windows of
>the UN*X world. flames >> /dev/null
>
>--
>
>Kris Kirby <kris@airnet.net>
>-------------------------------------------
>TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:23:46 1998
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From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
Cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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On May 05, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote:
>
> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I
> don't know how true it is..
>
> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to
> take Freebsd and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page
> extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything
> back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was FreeBSD.
>
> Any comments?
That's not a bug, it's a feature. :-)
If M$ wants to do exactly that, more power to them. In fact, I feel
that that is one of best things about the BSD license; anyone can take
it, add their features, and resell it. Some companies even do exactly
what you are exactly what you are describing.
So what's wrong with that? Simple economics state that people have to
make money in order to make a living. Their competitors can also do
the same thing. The developers of FreeBSD get satisfaction in knowing
that their work is valuable to others, and has been used to improve the
overall state of the art in the industry.
Actually, it would be nice if M$ would do that, perhaps it would greatly
reduce the bugcount in their software and make it more useable. :-)
--
Jonathan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:24:23 1998
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Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:23:47 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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On Sun, 3 May 1998, Nicole wrote:
> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h
> ow true it is..
>
> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs
> d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc)
> and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s
> tate that it was FreeBSD.
that is the whole point. As someone stated before who commednted on GPL vs
BSD I think it was john?, thats the point. When he writes code for FreeBSD
he is doing so with the knowledge it is TOTALLY FREE. NO STRINGS ATTACHED.
Once he writes something for freebsd its in the interest that SOMEONE
finds his code good enough to use. They don't do this for profit, greed,
or to put strings on the code they write. Which is why the BSD license is
free 100% and GPL is not free, and its anti-commercial. GPL is like that
oasis in the desert you can see the water and it's almost in reach but
right as you reach it it appears 20 yards farther out. Thats how GPL
works, they hand you the code, you think your free to use it but then,
oooohh gotta give what you write with it back, sorry wish it could be free
but we cannot allow you to take our hard work and use it freely without
giving something back. So GPL is NOT free. Free 100% is to allow the users
of the code to do whatever it is they wish with it with
NO/ZIP/ZERO/NONE/NADA strings attached. GPL is only free as long as you
dont use it, if you use it your FORCED into giving what youw rite with it
back. That is not free. That is the opposite of free.
GPL is a license. but it is NOT FREE. It has many uses but it is not free.
It is dilusional to think so.
Chris
--
"I don't do favors, I accumulate debts"
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:32:07 1998
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Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 16:31:37 -0600
To: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD,
Berkeley
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
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>I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h
>ow true it is..
>
> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs
>d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc)
> and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s
>tate that it was FreeBSD.
>
>
>Any comments?
>
> Nicole
This argument has been refuted many times. As has been pointed out in other forums,
Microsoft has the money to reimplement anything it wants! For instance, while
Microsoft could have used the BSD TCP/IP stack (as IBM did for OS/2 and NeXT did
for NeXTStep), it didn't; it rolled its own.
The restrictions on commercial re-use of source found in the GPL don't hurt Microsoft
one bit. Failure to allow commercial re-use of code never bothers the "big guys," like
Microsoft, which can drop a few million without breaking a sweat and hire programmers
to "rewrite the wheel." (Heck, they can buy a whole company that has what they
want.) And actually LIKE it if their stuff turns out to be just a bit incompatible;
it locks users in.
But the little guy -- the upstart competitor -- will lose valuable time
reimplementing what's already been done. I think we'd all prefer to free innovators
to concentrate on what's innovative and new, rather than having to start from scratch
when a problem has already been solved. The result is likely to be of higher
quality -- and more compatible, too.
--Brett Glass
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:43:34 1998
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.980503181514.24861A-100000@orion.webspan.net> from Open Systems Networking at "May 3, 98 06:23:47 pm"
To: opsys@mail.webspan.net (Open Systems Networking)
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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Open Systems Networking wrote:
> he is doing so with the knowledge it is TOTALLY FREE. NO STRINGS ATTACHED.
> Once he writes something for freebsd its in the interest that SOMEONE
> finds his code good enough to use. They don't do this for profit, greed,
> or to put strings on the code they write. Which is why the BSD license is
> free 100% and GPL is not free, and its anti-commercial. GPL is like that
> oasis in the desert you can see the water and it's almost in reach but
> right as you reach it it appears 20 yards farther out. Thats how GPL
> works, they hand you the code, you think your free to use it but then,
> oooohh gotta give what you write with it back, sorry wish it could be free
> but we cannot allow you to take our hard work and use it freely without
> giving something back. So GPL is NOT free. Free 100% is to allow the users
> of the code to do whatever it is they wish with it with
> NO/ZIP/ZERO/NONE/NADA strings attached. GPL is only free as long as you
> dont use it, if you use it your FORCED into giving what youw rite with it
> back. That is not free. That is the opposite of free.
> GPL is a license. but it is NOT FREE. It has many uses but it is not free.
> It is dilusional to think so.
this is incorrect.
there are strings attached.
in short, you must credit the University of California,
Berkeley and its contributors in source and in binary.
the binary must reproduce the copyright, its list of
conidtions and its disclaimer. all ads must proclaim
that the product has berkeley source in it.
i believe that these strings may be why microsoft produces
their own ****ty tcp/ip .....they prefer their own "material"
to admitting they use a better product.
and its "Unix" no less ;)
jmb
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:48:47 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:48:28 +0200
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote:
>
> On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote:
> > I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating
> > the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however,
> > are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general.
> >
> > I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the
> > awareness
> > level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative
> > point of view. That's where the benefit comes in.
> >
> > --Brett
>
>
> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I
> don't know how true it is..
>
> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to
> take FreeBSD and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page
> extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give
> anything back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was
> FreeBSD.
They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a
LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source
sometime.
One example: They have to credit the University of California at
Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in
/usr/src/COPYRIGHT.
It is, however, correct that they wouldn't have to return the source.
That's intended, and a lot of developers and contributors use it. I
(for one) distribute FreeBSD-based products without providing source
code, but I contribute back close to all generally usable to changes
to the "official" FreeBSD. (I can't think of any examples of changes
I haven't given back, but there might be some.)
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 16:01:25 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>, Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
Cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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On Sun, 3 May 1998 at 17:22:38 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote:
> On May 05, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote:
>>
>> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I
>> don't know how true it is..
>>
>> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to
>> take Freebsd and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page
>> extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything
>> back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was FreeBSD.
>>
>> Any comments?
>
> That's not a bug, it's a feature. :-)
In fact, the BSD license *does* require acknowledgement of the
sources. Read it again.
And yes, Microsoft has done this already, at least indirectly. Do you
think they wrote all of their TCP/IP code? On the other hand, compare
what they made of it to the original and you'll see why there's no
particular reason for concern.
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 16:05:40 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>,
Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote:
>>
>> On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote:
>>> I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating
>>> the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however,
>>> are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general.
>>>
>>> I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the
>>> awareness
>>> level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative
>>> point of view. That's where the benefit comes in.
>>>
>>> --Brett
>>
>>
>> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I
>> don't know how true it is..
>>
>> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to
>> take FreeBSD and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page
>> extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give
>> anything back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was
>> FreeBSD.
>
> They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a
> LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source
> sometime.
>
> One example: They have to credit the University of California at
> Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in
> /usr/src/COPYRIGHT.
Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4?
You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better.
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 16:07:07 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:06:04 +0200
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>,
Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> <XFMail.980503144012.freelist@webweaver.net> <19980504004828.35746@follo.net> <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com>
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On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> > They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a
> > LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source
> > sometime.
> >
> > One example: They have to credit the University of California at
> > Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in
> > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT.
>
> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4?
> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better.
Then we're dealing with license violation. I don't think GPLing
something will help you if you assume the license will be violated.
Of course, the GPL is viral, and as a such might be more scary. A
neat hack might be to create a BSD-style license which goes viral if
violated :-)
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 16:12:47 1998
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To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>,
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 1:06:04 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
>>> They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a
>>> LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source
>>> sometime.
>>>
>>> One example: They have to credit the University of California at
>>> Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in
>>> /usr/src/COPYRIGHT.
>>
>> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4?
>> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better.
>
> Then we're dealing with license violation. I don't think GPLing
> something will help you if you assume the license will be violated.
Sure. This wasn't supposed to be an argument for the GPL.
> Of course, the GPL is viral, and as a such might be more scary. A
> neat hack might be to create a BSD-style license which goes viral if
> violated :-)
You still need to get the source.
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 17:28:44 1998
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To: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 14:40:12 PDT."
<XFMail.980503144012.freelist@webweaver.net>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Sure who cares and M$ can do the same thing with GPL code in fact
they have done to companies .
However , if you wish to be honest unlike some monopolies we *do* have
an advantage over GPL license which is that the BSD license does
provide the option to commercialize the code legally.
One issue to keep in mind is that is very difficult and costly to
privatize an OS installation like FreeBSD .
Amancio
>
> On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote:
> > I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating
> > the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however,
> > are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general.
> >
> > I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the
> > awareness
> > level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative
> > point of view. That's where the benefit comes in.
> >
> > --Brett
>
>
> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h
> ow true it is..
>
> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs
> d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc)
> and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s
> tate that it was FreeBSD.
>
>
> Any comments?
>
> Nicole
>
>
>
> >
> > P.S. -- I'm cross-posting this one reply to both lists, but further
> > discussion
> > probably shouldn't be.
> >
> > At 11:51 AM 5/3/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> >
> >>On Sat, 2 May 1998 at 18:25:47 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> >>> As usual, a group of GPL zealots have gotten loose in an InfoWorld forum,
> >>> claiming that RMS is nothing less than a saint and that the GPL is The One
> >>> True Way. They're also trashing FreeBSD and the Berkeley-style license
> >>> quite a bit. Some folks from this list might care to join in.... In fact, I
> >>> think they should, as previous discussions on the InfoWorld forums have
> >>> raised FreeBSD's profile. The URL for the discussion is
> >>>
> >>> http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767
> >>>
> >>> You can read the messages without registering, but need to fill out a short
> >>> registration form to post. (From what I can tell, you don't have to give
> >>> much -- or accurate -- information on the form.)
> >>
> >>Copying (and following-up to) advocacy. This seems a better forum.
> >>
> >>Well, speech is free, but I don't think you'll get much satisfaction
> >>fighting a bunch of people who see things differently. Having said
> >>that, of course, I'd have a hard time suggesting that you stop :-)
> >>
> >>I don't think that it's a good idea to get FreeBSD's name too involved
> >>in this kind of discussion, though. It'll just give the zealots more
> >>ammunition. (I don't know if you *do* mention FreeBSD--I haven't had
> >>time to read all the messages.
> >>
> >>Greg
> >>--
> >>See complete headers for address and phone numbers
> >>finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
> >>
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>
>
> nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/
> webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD --
> -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman --
>
> -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? --
> -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked --
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 17:31:16 1998
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To: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
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FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 14:40:12 PDT."
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Oh, I forgot to add :
Lets take this thread to Infoworld -- is nice to have this group
conversatations however we need to include a much wider audience,
beside Brett already invite us so lets take this show on the road 8)
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 17:32:04 1998
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Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:29:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jay Nelson <jdn@acp.qiv.com>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>,
Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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On Mon, 4 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
[snip]
>Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4?
>You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better.
There is nothing with which to compare Microsoft. They have
established a low point yet matched.
The BSD license is scattered all through AIX -- although a strong
argument could be made that it's not really SYSV. I think it's a very
BSD-like OS with some unusual integrated applications.
Their SPs wouldn't function without free software -- kerberos,
automounter, perl and tcl. I think they've been good about it. They
even include source with the SP software.
-- Jay
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 19:51:51 1998
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To: dwilde1@ibm.net
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 07:59:21 PDT."
<354C8649.A1D220E2@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 19:51:22 -0700
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> _actually_, and how to recover when it fails. It also doesn't tell you
> anything about filenames.txt, it doesn't explain the CD layout, or
LAYOUT.TXT describes the CD layout fairly well for the "complex"
1st CD and the README.TXT files describe the simpler ones pretty
adequately, I'd say.
> Second off, since the CD autoboots, very few will actually get to the
> README's before being launched into the install.
They are duplicated in the Doc submenu of the install. :)
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 20:04:43 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:34:17 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Brett Taylor <brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu>,
freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: screeshots part deux
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On Sun, 26 April 1998 at 17:14:39 -0600, Brett Taylor wrote:
> Last week or so people were all up in arms about getting some screenshots
> on www.freebsd.org so I said "send me your screenshots." Two people did -
> I know some of you posted URL's to yours but I accidentally deleted a
> bunch of mail so I missed them. Feel free to send them to me if you want.
>
> In any case, I've taken the screenshots I've received and the ones I've
> made and made a little web page. Feel free to come browse it and check
> them out.
>
> Being that we've had a number of people on -questions lately ask "what
> does FBSD look like?" maybe it is a good idea to have some on the web
> page. I know I've overwhelmed W95 users when I had Enlightenment on my
> machine (I couldn't stand it - too foofy - but it is good at wowing
> people).
>
> The URL is:
>
> http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/screenshots.html
Nice stuff. Maybe I'll get something for you as well. One point,
though: I think this is really a case where a full-sized image is
important, and it should be as sharp as possible. This means .gif,
not .jpeg. I'd suggest that you reduce the images to thumbnails and
use them as a link to the full-size version for people who want it.
If this is a bandwidth problem for you, I'm sure we could arrange to
put it on one of the FreeBSD machines.
Greg
--
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 20:20:57 1998
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <199805040028.RAA03888@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 3, 98 05:28:09 pm"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 22:20:29 -0500 (EST)
Cc: freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Amancio Hasty said:
>
> One issue to keep in mind is that is very difficult and costly to
> privatize an OS installation like FreeBSD .
>
I agree, and a paraphrased version of your statement might end up
in my signature line. I suggest that someone might want to beat
me to it :-). (I don't have time for flamewars right now, lots
and lots of work beckons right now.)
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 20:23:37 1998
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Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:54 -0400
From: "Kriston J. Rehberg" <kriston@ibm.net>
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To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
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I am very impressed with FreeBSD. So impressed, that after installing
it from the FTP site, I ran out and bought the book (even though 2.2.6
was just published, it wasn't to be in stores for quite a while so 2.2.5
was the only edition to be had). After cutting my teeth on Slackware
Linux a few years ago, and recently hacking through an installation of
NetBSD, I can say that FreeBSD has come along way.
Having said that, I have been using all kinds of Unix systems for many
years -- from old Xenix machines in dental offices, to SunOS in academia
to all the latest proprietary architectures in very large production
environments. From a professional standpoint, FreeBSD's only major
drawback is its name. In the real world, names are important. We don't
like running heavily-used, production servers on something called
Free-anything. It's a stigma that is unbecoming of a quality server
product. I don't rent cars in far-off cities from Rent-a-Wreck, no
matter how many times that John R. guy tells me "don't let the name fool
you" in the commercials. I rent from Enterprise.
While the FreeBSD project's goals are noble and the product is of great
quality, the name really takes away alot of the product's credibility.
Ironically, it grew out of a product called "BSD-Lite" that nobody took
seriously when it was first released by CSRG. A large organization can
probably get away with it, but a smaller outfit that is trying to build
a good reputation in the field, the name stigmatizes the group, too.
In a very large production environment, saying that you run FreeBSD is
like saying that you use "cheap-OS" or "OS-without-quality" to the
regular customer. Sure, cdrom.com runs FreeBSD, but they don't cater to
the regular customer -- the masses of people with computers, having
little technical knowledge but spending massive amounts of aggregated
real money for a service. Just ask AOL, or even IBM.
Now, I have to say that nobody reading this message would agree with
me. But the people buying the services are most definitely not reading
this list. They know next to nothing about FreeBSD's merits and good
quality; however, hearing the name "FreeBSD" they immediatly get the
impression that their production web site is running on "cheapo-OS,"
"not-good-enough-to-pay-for-OS" or, worst of all, "OS-without-support."
Not that any of these things are necessarily true, but first impressions
are important.
Nicole's company is correct in using systems that are well-known, or at
least "sound" well-known. An OS called Solaris, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or
Linux surely holds more brand equity and trust than something called,
simply, "FreeBSD."
Enjoy,
Kris Rehberg
--
Kriston J. Rehberg
http://kriston.net/
endeavor to persevere
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 21:10:50 1998
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From: John Kenagy <jktheowl@bga.com>
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>,
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Subject: Re: Slogan
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Ouch! I just sprained my brains! A conversation, world wide, with
jokes in LATIN! ;-)
Seriously, (really) the slogan, handle, or whatever should remain:
Powerd by FreeBSD
It is a simple clean statement. It also has the advantage of eliciting
questions, pulling the reader in, rather than making a statement that
chalenges. I don't think throwing a gauntlet down is what you want to
do.
Having someone ask you, "What is powered?" "How powerful is it?"
is a good first step. Someone has posted something about this on
bumper stickers (sorry but I don't remember who), and I would put
one on _my_ car. I think it would cause people to ask me what it
means.
"Powered by FreeBSD" rather reminds me of the days when I had money,
oh so long ago, and a big sports fishing boat "powered by Cummins",
twin turbocharged diesels. Everyone would go "Oooooh".
Even though my ego is paying karmic bills, I think the "Oooooh" part
is what we are after and "Powered by FreeBSD" says it.
Comments?
John
On Sun, 3 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > I take that last message back. It's either "coii" or "coivi".
>
> The irony, of course, is that more people probably got the
> joke with incorrect latin as would have gotten it without. :)
>
>
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>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 21:12:17 1998
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To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" <kriston@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
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Uhm.. in our case Free can also mean Free source. And with all the
publicity open source movement is getting the name can actually play in
our favour. Just next time someone say "Free OS" you say "Free Source".
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux -- DOS of the Unix world.
On Sun, 3 May 1998, Kriston J. Rehberg wrote:
>I am very impressed with FreeBSD. So impressed, that after installing
>it from the FTP site, I ran out and bought the book (even though 2.2.6
>was just published, it wasn't to be in stores for quite a while so 2.2.5
>was the only edition to be had). After cutting my teeth on Slackware
>Linux a few years ago, and recently hacking through an installation of
>NetBSD, I can say that FreeBSD has come along way.
>
[crying about the name snipped]
>
>Enjoy,
>
>Kris Rehberg
>
>--
>Kriston J. Rehberg
> http://kriston.net/
> endeavor to persevere
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 21:13:07 1998
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Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:54 EDT."
<354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 21:12:44 -0700
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You're not the first to point this out, of course, but it's also a
fact that we've put a LOT into promoting this particular brand name
and it's easily conceivable that a name change at this stage would be
a decision which hindsight would later reveal as responsible for
pulling defeat from the jaws of victory. Despite the downsides of
having a name like FreeBSD, the fact is that we're still doing very
well and need to be extremely careful about what we do.
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 22:10:38 1998
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To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" <kriston@ibm.net>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:54 EDT."
<354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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>Nicole's company is correct in using systems that are well-known, or at
>least "sound" well-known. An OS called Solaris, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or
>Linux surely holds more brand equity and trust than something called,
>simply, "FreeBSD."
Some people will have this opinion, but many others will not. In the end,
I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so
successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was
founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become
a dirty word.
-DG
David Greenman
Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 22:28:15 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:57:11 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Dan Benjamin <dpb@yeti.hqs.crc.com>, dwilde1@ibm.net,
"Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Demo CDs (was: blessing)
References: <001401bd7375$1741d480$6fd392c0@moses.hqs.crc.com>
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In-Reply-To: <001401bd7375$1741d480$6fd392c0@moses.hqs.crc.com>; from Dan Benjamin on Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:45:37AM -0400
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On Wed, 29 April 1998 at 9:45:37 -0400, Dan Benjamin wrote:
>> This thing needs more flesh. Any ideas? What problems do you see?
>> About the biggest one I see so far is how to find the mouse. It would
>> be nice to modify startx to check for the mouse if no valid pointer
>> section is found in the XF86Config file ("no mouse found: please move
>> your mouse around until I say \"stop\""). Anybody know how to
>> recognize a mouse?
>
> This is a good point - is it safe enough to assume that most people have com
> 1 free?
No.
> Even on systems where there is a ps2 style mouse, com 1 is usually
> unused. We could specify that they need to use a serial mouse on
> com1 to get things started. It's not too much to ask IMHO.
You mean to ask them to go out and buy another mouse? I'd say that's
definitely too much to ask. It should be straightforward enough to
find the mouse (first, you ask the user...)
> -Dan B.
> dan@bsdweek.com
BSD Week? What's that?
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 22:31:21 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:00:51 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Malartre <malartre@aei.ca>
Cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Demo CDs (was: blessing)
References: <17537.893491629@time.cdrom.com> <3541F04D.474FE994@ibm.net> <19980429145242.02565@papillon.lemis.com> <3547A403.6E80E1A4@aei.ca>
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On Wed, 29 April 1998 at 18:04:52 -0400, Malartre wrote:
> Greg Lehey wrote:
>> OK, so what do we need? My thought is for two or three preinstalled
>> versions:
>>
>> 1. A CD-ROM-based version which will boot from CD-ROM, Microsoft or
>> floppy, create an MFS file system for things that really need to
>> write to "disk", and other than that run from CD-ROM. Create the
>> / file system on the mfs and symlinks to just about everything
>> except /tmp, /var/tmp and /home to the CD-ROM. With any luck, we
>> should be able to get away with 4 MB MFS.
>>
>> 2. PicoBSD for those who want it. Copy to floppy and execute.
>>
>> 3. In the background, for those who are hooked, the regular
>> installable version of FreeBSD.
>>
>> Versions (1) and (2) would effectively be canned versions which
>> couldn't easily be modified. Run with "standard" peripherals,
>> including Enternet and SVGA to 1024x768, but with a base resolution of
>> 640x480 so that X will come up on just about any currently available
>> board. Include a functional fvwm95 window mangler so that what comes
>> up looks pretty much like what Microsoft users are used to (can
>> somebody come up with a daemon logo to fit where Microsoft puts its
>> windows logo?). Also a PPP configuration that could easily be
>> modified to suit just about anything that the standard Windows 95% can
>> do.
>>
>> This thing needs more flesh. Any ideas? What problems do you see?
>> About the biggest one I see so far is how to find the mouse. It would
>> be nice to modify startx to check for the mouse if no valid pointer
>> section is found in the XF86Config file ("no mouse found: please move
>> your mouse around until I say \"stop\""). Anybody know how to
>> recognize a mouse?
>
> Well, I dont see why you want to do that lite version.Can you explain me to
> who you will give that package?
Show the operating system to people who are really not that
interested.
> If you try to put that on a popular magazine, I dont think any Win95
> user will succesfully try it... People (maybe like me 4 weeks ago)
> who use win95 will never understand your product in that *lite* way.
Why not?
> 1: What's your market: Win95 user, Linux user, Unix user, Server Admin,
> kids?
Win 95% user, kids.
> 3: If its Win95 even Mac, no one will understand They will think it run
> under Win95 and they will flood questions@freebsd.org
Not if you explain it to them up front.
> 5: You never need a Lite package. Do a MPEG video or an apps who will show
> the
> OS's power. Maybe a Java Applet on the web should be a good idea...
First you need to get people to install it.
> FreeBSD will never be for normal user who only want a good
> MS-Words-like-apps. Win95 do the jobs. Your main target should be:
> 1: Server (kill BSDi!)
BSDI (not BSDi) are our friends.
> 2: Take Linux user
> 3: Take other Unix user
> 4: *Maybe* WinNT user
There aren't enough of all these put together out there to make it
worthwhile putting in a mainstream magazine.
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 22:53:27 1998
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To: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
cc: "Kriston J. Rehberg" <kriston@ibm.net>, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
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On Sun, 3 May 1998, David Greenman wrote:
> Some people will have this opinion, but many others will not. In the end,
> I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so
> successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was
> founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become
> a dirty word.
AMEN! Pretty soon you wont have any 2nd, 5th, or any other rights.
Clinton still has some time left in office :)
Seriously though, I think that part of the problem with the "free" is bad
mentality when talking about FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize
just how used FreeBSD is in coporate america. No it isn't selling like
Microsoft. But it also doesn't need to. It takes multiple NT servers to
equal one FreeBSD server. It is alot easier to track NT sales #'s to
FreeBSD. I have no proof of any of this, just speculation and deduction,
but there are lot's of places running FreeBSD in some capacity. I don't
know what capacity but places like bellcore, AT&T (and many sub-divisions
therein), uu-net, and probably many others run FreeBSD on some of their
servers. I think FreeBSD is very well respected in MANY places by MANY
people. People who run the technical side of things in companies.
And they have the right not to admit to it up front and outright.
FreeBSD doesn't enforce a GPL like philosophy :) You run our OS and we
FORCE you to proudly say so! heh
It would be great if they did, it would probably do wonders for us and
give us great publicity. But again they are not obligated to.
And I could be dreaming this and imagining these places powering things
with FreeBSD but i'm willing to bet im not. I dont think people realize
this, simply because we don't have UU-Net or bellcore shouting "Hey! Over
here! Run FreeBSD it is superior to eveything in existance! We power our
electric socks with it!" Just some food for thought for those who think
Free in FreeBSD has made FreeBSD a road less traveled.
A deranged FreeBSD fanatic,
Chris
--
"I don't do favors, I accumulate debts"
===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 23:01:41 1998
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Subject: Re: Demo CDs (was: blessing)
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> BSD Week? What's that?
Heh I knew someone would catch that :)
That i believe is dan's idea. A BSD magazine web based of course.
To give us a place to spill articles and whatnot like linuxjournal, or
linuxgazette. I started writing an article for it myself a few weeks ago
when dan first mentioned it. Part of that PR hooha I wanted to see happen.
This is a really good example of what I was talking about.
I think it will be great if it actually works and people write for it.
I'm just glad it has started.
But I'll let dan dish info on BSD week :)
Chris
--
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===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 23:06:27 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:03:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Phillip Salzman <advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org>
To: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
cc: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>,
chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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>
> Actually, it would be nice if M$ would do that, perhaps it would greatly
> reduce the bugcount in their software and make it more useable. :-)
> --
> Jonathan
That would be a cool thing for M$ to do, that way some people would
find out M$ 'borrowed' it from FreeBSD... and the word would spread
until everyone knows that M$ is full of annoying worms. Those people
would then goto ftp.freebsd.org and download the installation diskette
and send back their M$ purchase.
This would cause M$ to lose market share, and money.. forcing them
to stop selling OS's, and die.
Just a thought...
Phillip Salzman
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 01:11:08 1998
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Organization: Siemens Austria AG
From: Marino Ladavac <lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>,
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On 03-May-98 Greg Lehey wrote:
> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4?
> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better.
>
Solaris 2.5.1:
$ grep Regents /bin/*
mailq: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
mailstats: The Regents of the University of California. All rights
reserved.
newaliases: The Regents of the University of California. All rights
reserved.
vgrind:# Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
HP-UX B.10.20
$ head /etc/copyright
(c)Copyright 1983-1996 Hewlett-Packard Co., All Rights Reserved.
(c)Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1985-1993 The Regents of the Univ. of California
(c)Copyright 1980, 1984, 1986 Novell, Inc.
(c)Copyright 1986-1992 Sun Microsystems, Inc.
(c)Copyright 1985, 1986, 1988 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
(c)Copyright 1989-1993 The Open Software Foundation, Inc.
(c)Copyright 1986 Digital Equipment Corp.
(c)Copyright 1990 Motorola, Inc.
(c)Copyright 1990, 1991, 1992 Cornell University
(c)Copyright 1989-1991 The University of Maryland
SINIX-Y 5.42
$ dbx a.out
dbx 2.2A00 SINIX (Apr 18 1996)
Copyright (C) Siemens Nixdorf Informationssysteme AG 1995
Base: BSD, Copyright (C) The Regents of the University of California
All rights reserved
etc.
Okay, so the copyright notices (aside from HP) are not in extremely visible
files, but they are indeed there.
/Marino
----------------------------------
Marino Ladavac
Date: 04-May-98
Time: 09:58:53
----------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:53:03 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Marino Ladavac <lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at>
Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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Removing -chat.
On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 10:09:19 +0200, Marino Ladavac wrote:
>
> On 03-May-98 Greg Lehey wrote:
>> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4?
>> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better.
>>
>
> Solaris 2.5.1:
>
> $ grep Regents /bin/*
> mailq: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
> mailstats: The Regents of the University of California. All rights
> reserved.
> newaliases: The Regents of the University of California. All rights
> reserved.
> vgrind:# Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
OK, these are all BSD programs and not part of the base system.
> HP-UX B.10.20
>
> $ head /etc/copyright
> (c)Copyright 1983-1996 Hewlett-Packard Co., All Rights Reserved.
> (c)Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1985-1993 The Regents of the Univ. of California
> (c)Copyright 1980, 1984, 1986 Novell, Inc.
> (c)Copyright 1986-1992 Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> (c)Copyright 1985, 1986, 1988 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
> (c)Copyright 1989-1993 The Open Software Foundation, Inc.
> (c)Copyright 1986 Digital Equipment Corp.
> (c)Copyright 1990 Motorola, Inc.
> (c)Copyright 1990, 1991, 1992 Cornell University
> (c)Copyright 1989-1991 The University of Maryland
I don't know this file. Looks like bare nones, anyway.
> SINIX-Y 5.42
>
> $ dbx a.out
> dbx 2.2A00 SINIX (Apr 18 1996)
> Copyright (C) Siemens Nixdorf Informationssysteme AG 1995
> Base: BSD, Copyright (C) The Regents of the University of California
> All rights reserved
I've worked on SINIX-N, which shares a code base with SINIX-Y, and I
can confirm that the required copyright notices are missing in most of
the BSD-derived sources.
> Okay, so the copyright notices (aside from HP) are not in extremely visible
> files, but they are indeed there.
More to the point, they're not in the required form.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 03:21:02 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 03:19:54 -0700
From: Josh Gilliam <josh@quick.net>
To: Marino Ladavac <lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at>, Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
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Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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> > Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4?
> > You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better.
Here is the only one I found in Windows 95:
$ what /dos/windows/ftp.exe
ftp.exe
Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
--
Josh Gilliam <josh@quick.net>
5333 E Los Arboles Ave 1 714 633 6499
Orange CA 92869-4216 USA
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 04:16:51 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:14:10 +0200 (CEST)
From: Remy NONNENMACHER <remy@synx.com>
Reply-To: remy@synx.com
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
To: opsys@mail.webspan.net
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On 4 May, Open Systems Networking wrote:
> On Sun, 3 May 1998, David Greenman wrote:
>
>> Some people will have this opinion, but many others will not. In the end,
>> I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so
>> successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was
>> founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become
>> a dirty word.
>
> AMEN! Pretty soon you wont have any 2nd, 5th, or any other rights.
> Clinton still has some time left in office :)
>
> Seriously though, I think that part of the problem with the "free" is bad
> mentality when talking about FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize
> just how used FreeBSD is in coporate america. No it isn't selling like
> Microsoft. But it also doesn't need to. It takes multiple NT servers to
> equal one FreeBSD server. It is alot easier to track NT sales #'s to
> FreeBSD. I have no proof of any of this, just speculation and deduction,
> but there are lot's of places running FreeBSD in some capacity. I don't
> know what capacity but places like bellcore, AT&T (and many sub-divisions
> therein), uu-net, and probably many others run FreeBSD on some of their
> servers. I think FreeBSD is very well respected in MANY places by MANY
> people. People who run the technical side of things in companies.
> And they have the right not to admit to it up front and outright.
David, you are right, opsys (?) you are right, Kriston you are *ALSO*
right !!
Freedom is great but, in a lot of country, 'Free' means 'no cost'.
I was able to introduce FreeBSD in many companies as replacement for NT
boxes but never by using the 'FreeBSD' name directly. Always by having
a long time talk with responsibles using the path :
(initial state: the customer already decided for NT)
- NT ? OK. So you have no valuable data, hum ?
- Why i ask ? because there is no facility for administration and
reliability is poor !
- Can i prove ? Well, i can but professionals who need reliability
always choose Unix ! (names follow)
- What Unix brand ? You know, they all come from the BSD branch !
- ATT ? no, no, they invented the 'Unix' word but they dropped all the
stuff since 8 or 10 years !
- Cost a lot ? no. If you really need security, take BSDI or NetBSD !
- Linux ? Well it's great but if you need realiabilty AND speed, take
FreeBSD, like (names follow) for instance.
- FreeBSD. Yes
- F R E E B S D. It's the most advanced brand of Unix. Really better
than the old ATT one.
- No 'Free' stands for 'open', no relation with it's internal quality
- Well, you can call it BSD, if you want. However, BSD is not a
unix-like, *IT IS* Unix.
(Final State: discussing technical details about how to try it).
Sorry all for having to say that in the current
ideologically-religio-integro-sectism world ruled by M$, a name like
BSD-NT is better than FreeBSD. Welcome to gates World !!.
-
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 04:53:17 1998
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To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
From: David Kelly <dkelly@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-reply-to: Message from Phillip Salzman <advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org>
of "Mon, 04 May 1998 01:03:57 CDT." <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504010042.465A-100000@saten.dyn.ml.org>
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Phillip Salzman writes:
> >
> > Actually, it would be nice if M$ would do that, perhaps it would greatly
> > reduce the bugcount in their software and make it more useable. :-)
> > --
> > Jonathan
>
>
> That would be a cool thing for M$ to do, that way some people would
> find out M$ 'borrowed' it from FreeBSD... and the word would spread
> until everyone knows that M$ is full of annoying worms. Those people
> would then goto ftp.freebsd.org and download the installation diskette
> and send back their M$ purchase.
>
> This would cause M$ to lose market share, and money.. forcing them
> to stop selling OS's, and die.
I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser
source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same
with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well,
at least not much in IBM scale.
--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net
=====================================================================
The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its
capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 05:05:36 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:04:44 +0200
From: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
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Hi..
On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:19:54AM -0700, Josh Gilliam wrote:
> $ what /dos/windows/ftp.exe
> ftp.exe
> Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
Now if that was under the GPL, then when M$'s lawyers prove that a web
browser is a critical part of an OS, then we could point to the ftp client
and say "That must be too? Please release Windows under the GPL..."
:)
-Jeremy
--
| What will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus freak?
--+-- What will people do when they find that it's true?
| I don't really care if they label me a Jesus Freak,
| There ain't no disguising the truth. - d c Talk
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 05:22:19 1998
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Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
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From: misfit@xmission.com (Anthony C. Chavez)
Date: 04 May 1998 06:22:19 -0600
In-Reply-To: "Kriston J. Rehberg"'s message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:54 -0400"
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"Kriston J. Rehberg" <kriston@ibm.net> writes:
[moderately-sized snip]
While your commentary about FreeBSD's name getting in the way of its
reputation in the OS market are true and valid, I have to say a few things on
its defense.
Let me begin by saying that I've heard this one a thousand times, and each time
it gets more and more dull. If it's not your best friend who blurts it out at
you (thinking that he's helping in some way, when in fact he's twisting the
dagger that one of your enemies placed in your back), it's the insane,
unstable, and unreliable power structure that rules this world with an iron
fist.
Granted, a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of the free software of yesterday is quite
bluntly, crap. But, times, they are a-changing! The free Un*x world is in a
state of flux. Things are constantly changing. Newer and better ideas are
replacing old ones and things are becoming very positive.
I have been a free Un*x user (including Linux and FreeBSD) since the week after
Windows95 came out (an interesting story is attached to that---I used Win95 for
only a couple of days before installing Linux over it and haven't gone back).
I have seen the once cluttered and unattractive world of the free Un*x evolve
into something that is becoming more and more beautiful as time passes.
A good example of this metamorphosis would be to compare something like fvwm
(old and weak, but tolerable if you take the time to work with it) with
AfterStep or WindowMaker (both excellent clones of the NeXT desktop). Both are
a bit unstable at the moment, but are definitely showing promise. New features
are being added constantly.
Now, I said your statements were true, and I'm repeating it here. It is true
that FreeBSD (and other free software) will get associated with cheap
imitations, the poor freeware of yesterday, etc., but I really don't think that
anyone already using FreeBSD really cares. We already know that it is power in
its most raw form, without a lot of corporate oppression.
I hope that FreeBSD's name will NEVER change. On a positive note, it keeps
those "in the know" in control, and the multitudes of clueless idiots (who
hide behind Micros*ft or other companies because they don't want to take the
time to really learn about computers) out of the picture.
Face it. The best things in life are free.
--
Anthony C. Chavez <misfit@xmission.com>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 06:51:21 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 09:50:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" <atf3r@cs.virginia.edu>
Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@virginia.edu>
To: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>,
FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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On Sun, 3 May 1998, Nicole wrote:
> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I
> don't know h ow true it is..
>
> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take
> Freebs d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page
> extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything
> back to the FreeBSD group or even s tate that it was FreeBSD.
The niggest problem with this argument IMHO is that I'd be happy
to see *BSD code incorperated into any MS product. If anything it would
be the part that works. If that API experienced growth in its usage
because it enabled robust, portable applications so much the better.
Adrian
--
adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and
System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer,
Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it.....
http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 06:55:53 1998
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To: David Kelly <dkelly@hiwaay.net>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW
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From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= )
Date: 04 May 1998 15:55:35 +0200
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David Kelly <dkelly@hiwaay.net> writes:
> I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser
> source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same
> with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well,
> at least not much in IBM scale.
You might be surprised.
The reason why you're not seeing OS/2 very much any more is that IBM
is no longer marketing it as an end-user OS, which does not mean that
they're not making any money selling it.
--
Noone else has a .sig like this one.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 07:03:55 1998
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Okay, okay, peace! Let's stop wasting bandwidth and get back to
improving it! :-)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 07:11:58 1998
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> I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so
> successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was
> founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become
> a dirty word.
Hear, hear! Let the dinosaurs stomp, we small furry mammals will
continue to munch away around their feet!
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 07:54:40 1998
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> Face it. The best things in life are free.
Ahhh! Now THERE'S our Slogan.
The best things in life are free!
FreeBSD
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 08:12:32 1998
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To: FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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David Kelly writes:
>
>I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser
>source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same
>with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well,
>at least not much in IBM scale.
That's a great idea, but IBM positions OS/2 as a sort of "replacement"
for Windows NT and Novell servers. When I used to use OS/2 a lot
(just before Windows 95 came out) I would get catalogs from IBM that
promoted the OS/2 Warp Server, which provides directory replication
(to get around Novell and NT license limits) and software products
that run on OS/2 to completely replace Novell and NT servers, with
services such as NDS, SMB "Lan Manager" things, and complete TCP/IP
services all on one machine.
I think they still promote OS/2 this way today... they exclusively
used OS/2 on the internal PC's when I worked there, anyway. I don't
think they want to lose whatever equity they have left in that system.
But this is old news; perhaps I'm waxing nostalgic.
Kris
--
Kriston J. Rehberg
AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 08:21:33 1998
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
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>I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser
>source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same
>with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well,
>at least not much in IBM scale.
Hmm.. They already have a suitable (read: very BSD like) license/Copyright
at http://www.clark.net/~proberts/vmailer/COPYRIGHT.html:
-----begin-----
Copyright (c) 1997 by International Business Machines, Inc.
International Business Machines, Inc. (hereinafter called IBM)
grants permission under its copyrights to use, copy, modify, and
distribute this Software with or without fee, provided that all
paragraphs of this notice appear in all copies, and that the name
of IBM not be used in connection with the marketing of any product
incorporating the Software or modifications thereof, without
specific, written prior permission.
To the extent it has a right to do so, IBM grants an immunity from
suit under its patents, if any, for the use, sale or manufacture
of products to the extent that such products are used for electronic
mail transport and delivery by means of the Software. No immunity
is granted for any product per se or for any other function of any
product.
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", AND IBM DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES,
INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS
FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. IN NO EVENT SHALL IBM BE LIABLE FOR ANY
SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES
WHATSOEVER ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE
OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF IBM IS APPRISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
SUCH DAMAGES.
-----end-----
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 08:31:12 1998
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From: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
To: dwilde1@ibm.net, "Anthony C. Chavez" <misfit@xmission.com>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
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Hi...
On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 07:18:02AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote:
> > Face it. The best things in life are free.
>
> Ahhh! Now THERE'S our Slogan.
>
>
> The best things in life are free!
>
> FreeBSD
Sorry, my copyright... it lost in the vote earlier (check the archives) to
"the power to serve".
-Jeremy
--
| What will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus freak?
--+-- What will people do when they find that it's true?
| I don't really care if they label me a Jesus Freak,
| There ain't no disguising the truth. - d c Talk
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 10:20:45 1998
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From: DRDavis <drdavis@xmission.com>
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CC: "Kriston J. Rehberg" <kriston@ibm.net>, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing also SLOGAN!
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And with that David just hit upon the slogan for FreeBSD!
Free(dom)BSD!
Darren R. Davis
David Greenman wrote:
> >Nicole's company is correct in using systems that are well-known, or at
> >least "sound" well-known. An OS called Solaris, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or
> >Linux surely holds more brand equity and trust than something called,
> >simply, "FreeBSD."
>
> Some people will have this opinion, but many others will not. In the end,
> I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so
> successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was
> founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become
> a dirty word.
>
> -DG
>
> David Greenman
> Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 11:51:44 1998
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Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:49:33 -0700
From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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References: <XFMail.980503135211.freelist@webweaver.net> <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> <87n2cyp6o4.fsf@misfit.users.xmission.com> <354DCE1A.83096DD5@ibm.net> <19980504172856.A1884@shale.csir.co.za>
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Jeremy Lea wrote:
>
> Hi...
>
> On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 07:18:02AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote:
> > > Face it. The best things in life are free.
> >
> > Ahhh! Now THERE'S our Slogan.
> >
> >
> > The best things in life are free!
> >
> > FreeBSD
>
> Sorry, my copyright... it lost in the vote earlier (check the archives) to
> "the power to serve".
Okay, I don't want credit, I just want great slogans!!!
><> !
--> Don
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 12:51:13 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:49:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: Brett Taylor <brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: screeshots part deux
In-Reply-To: <19980504123417.D4777@freebie.lemis.com>
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Howdy,
> Nice stuff. Maybe I'll get something for you as well. One point,
> though: I think this is really a case where a full-sized image is
> important, and it should be as sharp as possible. This means .gif,
> not .jpeg. I'd suggest that you reduce the images to thumbnails and
> use them as a link to the full-size version for people who want it.
> If this is a bandwidth problem for you, I'm sure we could arrange to
> put it on one of the FreeBSD machines.
All good suggestions - people sent me jpg's so that's what I used. In
addition I didn't figure a lot of people would want to spend a lot of time
downloading one 600 kB image. As noted on the page, I didn't spend a lot
of time trying to get things looking "nice" as my thesis is calling. :-P
Anyway, I received a few more and Jordan told me to go ahead and grab the
ones from Walnut Creek and I'd be happy to receive any from you Greg (and
any others). Bandwidth isn't really a problem, especially since school
here is about to end and all the undergrads will be going home. Sometimes
the link to here is slow though.
I do plan on fixing things up (making smaller thumbnails etc) and such. I
need to finish my afterstep-1.4.5.* port first and do some research before
I can get to this though so it may be a week before things get updated.
The non-updated page can be found at:
http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/screenshots.html
*********************************************************
Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu
http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 13:54:47 1998
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Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:54:15 -0600
To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: InfoWorld brawl esclates
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The brawl in the InfoWorld forum is accelerating. After pointing out some
of the recent statistics from wcarchive, showing the increase in FreeBSD
downloads, I've been branded as a "zealot," as "hyping" FreeBSD, and as
a stooge for large corporations. I didn't realize that the religious
fervor among the Stallmanites was so intense, or that they had the blinders
on so tight.
I'm now convinced that these folks ARE out to kill the *BSDs. Apparently,
they're a threat to the GPL zealots for two reasons. First, they prove that
the restrictive terms of the GPL are not necessary to the success of
collaboratively developed softwre; and second, they provide the access to
re-usable source code that Richard Stallman hoped to deny to commercial
software publishers. This latter point seems to be a source of real
animosity among those who subscribe to Stallman's anti-business views.
So, don't get too comfortable, guys. If what I see is any indication, the
BSDs are seriously under attack. They might do well to respond -- with
hard numbers, proven advantages, AND a bit of zealotry of their own.
Oh, and while I happen to be on the subject, I just visited the site
http://www.opensource.org and noted that it read like a commercial for
Linux -- lots of mentions of Linux and only one of FreeBSD. So, I e-mailed
Eric Raymond about this, asking why FreeBSD had been relegated to a footnote
on their page at http://www.opensource.org/products.html while Linux was
mentioned at the top and throughout. He said,
"Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual
runrate and I'll use it."
Hmmm.
--Brett Glass
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 15:39:05 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:26:45 -0700 (MST)
To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: linux world contemplate packages ...
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I just saw this on slashdot.org:
http://slashdot.org/articles/9804041623214.shtml
they are debating the various package formats amongst all the different
"distributions of linux" ... yet another thing I like about FreeBSD--the
simple packages. What? Your system doesn't have something it needs, wait
a sec, I'll go fetch(1) it ... blah blah blah ...
It's worth a read to see whats going on over there. Perhaps we can pick up
some ideas for filling the gaps in our own package implementation (I don't
really know what they might be as I see no problems as an "end user" but ...)
-Jr
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| John Reynolds C-TEAM CLE - Central Design Services |
| Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 |
| jreynold@sedona.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 16:01:17 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:00:36 +0200
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
References: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org>
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On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:54:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> The brawl in the InfoWorld forum is accelerating. After pointing out some
> of the recent statistics from wcarchive, showing the increase in FreeBSD
> downloads, I've been branded as a "zealot," as "hyping" FreeBSD, and as
> a stooge for large corporations. I didn't realize that the religious
> fervor among the Stallmanites was so intense, or that they had the blinders
> on so tight.
Part of this is because you quote Slackware numbers at them. The numbers
are overall (Linux is going linear growth, FreeBSD still on exponential),
not just against Slackware.
And all of it is anecdotes.
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 16:23:58 1998
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Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 -0600
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-Reply-To: <19980505010036.51517@follo.net>
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I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers
showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there.
--Brett
At 01:00 AM 5/5/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
>On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:54:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
>> The brawl in the InfoWorld forum is accelerating. After pointing out some
>> of the recent statistics from wcarchive, showing the increase in FreeBSD
>> downloads, I've been branded as a "zealot," as "hyping" FreeBSD, and as
>> a stooge for large corporations. I didn't realize that the religious
>> fervor among the Stallmanites was so intense, or that they had the blinders
>> on so tight.
>
>Part of this is because you quote Slackware numbers at them. The numbers
>are overall (Linux is going linear growth, FreeBSD still on exponential),
>not just against Slackware.
>
>And all of it is anecdotes.
>
>Eivind.
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 17:00:09 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:59:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Subject: Re: 3D "blender" package from NeoGeo now released.
In-Reply-To: <199805041007.MAA14164@nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl>
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Hello Marc,
It might seem that FreeBSD group makes less noise then Linux. And
it is true to some extent because mostly FreeBSD users are more technical
then Linux users and tend to try and solve problems on their own. I agree
with you that we need more participation and simply noise to stand out in
the computer world. Look, everyone complains about Windows and see how
popular that is. Ok, I am going to walk down the hallway and scream
something about FreeBSD now. Yeah, that's it. *grin*
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux -- DOS of the Unix world.
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Marc van Kempen wrote:
>> If you ever wonder why linux is getting ahead , cold or no response
>> to key strategic technologies such as what "blender" represents is
>> one of the reasons that linux is getting ahead of FreeBSD . We
>> have a FreeBSD friendly vendor let us no lose this relationship.
>>
>> Amancio
>>
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm responsible for advising NeoGeo about the Linux and FreeBSD
>versions. I would like to take this opportunity to react to
>Amancio's remarks.
>
>To date I haven't received one single bug report and only very
>little feedback from the FreeBSD users.
>
>Despite the fact that I prefer FreeBSD over Linux any day, you
>are not making yourselves credible as a commercial market, or
>even a fun market, enthusiasm is a powerful motivator!
>
>Regards,
>Marc van Kempen.
>
>----------------------------------------------------
>Marc van Kempen BowTie Technology
>Email: marc@bowtie.nl WWW & Databases
>tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65
>fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86 http://www.bowtie.nl
>----------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 17:01:30 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:01:31 -0600 (MDT)
From: allen campbell <allenc@verinet.com>
Message-Id: <199805050001.SAA25441@const.>
To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no, dkelly@hiwaay.net
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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> David Kelly <dkelly@hiwaay.net> writes:
> > I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser
> > source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same
> > with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well,
> > at least not much in IBM scale.
>
> You might be surprised.
>
> The reason why you're not seeing OS/2 very much any more is that IBM
> is no longer marketing it as an end-user OS, which does not mean that
> they're not making any money selling it.
I noticed the 390 site is promoting system management tools
implemented on OS/2. It seems OS/2 has a role to play as the PC
client for the big iron.
--
Allen Campbell
allenc@verinet.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 19:13:21 1998
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From: Alex <garbanzo@hooked.net>
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To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: linux world contemplate packages ...
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My favorite so far:
FreeBSD port system.
by Tsarnon (psh1@cornell.edu) on Monday May 04, @08:15
Everyone should have someone show them the FreeBSD port
system. Every die-hard Linux person that I have shown it to
went away jealous.
[....]
- alex
"Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern
technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat."
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 19:17:19 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 MDT."
<199805042323.RAA11721@lariat.lariat.org>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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>I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers
>showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there.
No, I've never quoted hard numbers. I think doing so, as a contractor for
WC CDROM, would be unethical and possibly illegal. I think it would be best
to drop this type of 'attack' against the Stallmanites as it will only serve
to further polarize people against us and I definately DON'T want that to
happen. We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and
working on converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of
rhetoric.
-DG
David Greenman
Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 19:26:20 1998
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Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 19:20:18 -0700
From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
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> "Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual
> runrate and I'll use it."
>
> Hmmm.
Walnut Creek? NCI?
Brett, real sysadmins know about FreeBSD. Look at Andreas' links, there
are a number of articles out there that mention FreeBSD right alongside
Solaris and AIX as viable platforms for _enterprise_ software.
I think we should concentrate more on our software and ease-of-CLI-use
and our demo tools. Don't panic, just write code. You've got to remember
the mentality of the newsgroup surfer. He's a lot different than
InfoWorld's print readership. Most of those who're responding to your
posts are teenage surfers with nothing better to do. Even Joe Dad or Joe
CEO -- who're serious contenders for our business -- won't go there. How
many _real_software_writers_ like John Dyson or Amancio Hasty post
responses to your posts??? There are some threads on these lists that
are getting just as religious. Nobody wins, because we all waste
bandwidth reading it and nobody is learning or writing code here. I
don't like losing, so end of my input. I've got too much to learn. :))))
--> Don
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 20:25:16 1998
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To: John Reynolds~ <jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: linux world contemplate packages ...
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 15:26:45 PDT."
<13646.16397.40516.303293@hip186.ch.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:23:35 -0700
Message-ID: <8208.894338615@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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>
> I just saw this on slashdot.org:
>
> http://slashdot.org/articles/9804041623214.shtml
Blech. I don't participate in dicussions there because their
braindead (sorry, braindead) discussion threader makes it too darn
difficult to figure out where the discussion is at any given point and
which of the many independent threads one should reply to. It's just
not worth the hassle when I can just stick to NEWS (which has its own
problems, yes, but at least they're tractable ones for me).
In any case, I don't see anything in any of the discussion there that
hasn't been said before and in considerably more detail. Everyone
basically knows what the All Singing All Dancing package manager of
the future is supposed to do and they also know that RPMs, DEBs TGZs
and all the other current packaging formats are *first generation*
efforts which are deeply in need of moving on to the second generation.
Even the staunchest adherent to any of the current package standards
will admit that there's a growing list of wish list items for their
pet standard, some of which are quite important (like signatures,
better "auditing" of changes, improved [or any] provisions for
updates, etc), that really need to go into the 2nd generation effort.
We finished our own 1st generation packaging technology several years
back and are now simply struggling with having become stuck on our way
to implementing the 2nd. :(
In any case, it's forward rather than lateral movement that we need
right now and switching to someone else's 1st generation technology
would be an example of lateral (if not backward) movement.
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 20:33:26 1998
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From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up.
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Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review.
In their April issue we find the following:
"FreeBSD, for example, is most robust at supporting high-end servers on
Pentium hardware, as its TCP/IP stack is derivative of the extremely
mature stack developed under DARPA's aegis at Berkeley, and it has been
extensively optimized for Pentium hardware. Mr. Protocol prefers it for
his own desktop network system, and it makes a good liniment and furniture
polish as well".
This is from "Ask Mr. Protocol" section written by Michael O'Brien
-- it talked about free source and etc. Comments go to amp@cpg.com
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux == DOS of the Unix world.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 21:07:01 1998
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From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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To: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
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On Mon, 4 May 1998, David Greenman wrote:
>We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and working on
>converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of
>rhetoric.
I have posted to this effect before. I am registering my support for Mr.
Greenman's position.
Everyone who supports free software should support each other. If there is
a faction within the free software community that is antgonistic, that
faction should be left alone to rant in their own little corner of the
net.
We do not want to be that faction. We do not even want to be _perceived_
as being in that faction. Cooperation is the cornerstone of free software.
Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at.
Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 21:14:06 1998
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Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:13:47 -0600
To: dg@root.com
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
Cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com>
References: <Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 MDT." <199805042323.RAA11721@lariat.lariat.org>
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Actually, since FreeBSD is the underdog, the aftermath of even a knock-down
drag-out brawl would, in the long run, help it, because it would raise
awareness. Since people don't take EITHER side in such a free-for-all
at face value, they usually decide they want to find out for themselves.
Which benefits the product that's less widely known -- in this case,
FreeBSD. Now, I'm not saying that I *like* such brawls or want to see
them -- only that if they do happen they won't hurt the cause in the
long run. Silence will.
I agree that WC CD-ROM should approve any release of numbers. But
why wouldn't they, if it gave them an opportunity to boost sales?
--Brett
At 07:16 PM 5/4/98 -0700, David Greenman wrote:
>>I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers
>>showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there.
>
> No, I've never quoted hard numbers. I think doing so, as a contractor for
>WC CDROM, would be unethical and possibly illegal. I think it would be best
>to drop this type of 'attack' against the Stallmanites as it will only serve
>to further polarize people against us and I definately DON'T want that to
>happen. We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and
>working on converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of
>rhetoric.
>
>-DG
>
>David Greenman
>Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 21:20:46 1998
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To: dwilde1@ibm.net
cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 19:20:18 PDT."
<354E7762.DE1F3279@ibm.net>
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Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:20:24 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Hi Guys,
We *do* need to respond to the linux religious fervor both John Dyson and
I have posted to the InfoWorld forum and yes this is a real idealogy
religious war fare .
Last but not least we are all too cozy in our environ we need to go out
more often and spread the word . We should not try to put down linux rather
we should focus that we are a strong viable alternative OS. From time
to time is okay to take a shot at the linux crowd again in balance we
should demonstrate our options.
Last but not least I am just asking the group to just go out and chat
we the linux folks -- just make believe that you are in a freebsd
mailing list -- is that simple 8)
Have Fun,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 21:44:06 1998
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Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:43:37 -0700
Message-ID: <8830.894343417.1@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 14:54:15 MDT."
<199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org>
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:43:37 -0700
Message-ID: <8830.894343417@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
> "Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual
> runrate and I'll use it."
That'd be Walnut Creek CDROM, for one. They do easily over $1M in
FreeBSD business a year.
However, there's also the fact that I really could care less just what
Eric Raymond has to say or thinks about free software because his
opinion is no more objective than, say, Bill Gates' on the topic. I
bear the man no personal animosity, don't get me wrong, but it's also
extremely clear that he's a Man On A Mission where it comes to Linux
and any pretense of impartiality on his part would be laughable. To
his credit, I don't believe he's ever claimed such impartiality either
and I'd certainly no more attempt to convince Eric Raymond to help
plug FreeBSD or even report on it objectively than I would Linus
Torvalds. In one very definite sense, he's "the competition" and I'm
no more surprised to see paeans to Linux on www.opensource.org
(however poorly named it might be) than I am to see them at
www.redhat.com. Sorry, them's just the facts!
- Jordan
------- =_aaaaaaaaaa--
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 22:06:42 1998
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Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:05:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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To: FreeBSD-advocacy <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Open Hardware Certification
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http://www.openhardware.org/
This organization's goals are in tune with that of free software. Please
keep them in mind when you go about your daily advocating.
Every manufacturer that subscribes to the principles of Open Hardware is
helping free OSes to better support existing hardware. This will go far
toward advancing the user base of FreeBSD.
This group is in its infancy. It seems they only got started in August of
last year. Hopefully, with support of users, they can become influential
enough that many, many OEMs will make driver source and other documents
freely available.
(Side note: I have contacted them but they have not returned my message
yet.)
Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at.
Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 22:28:28 1998
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From: John Kenagy <jktheowl@bga.com>
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To: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
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On Mon, 4 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote:
> On Mon, 4 May 1998, David Greenman wrote:
>
> >We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and working on
> >converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of
> >rhetoric.
>
> I have posted to this effect before. I am registering my support for Mr.
> Greenman's position.
>
> Everyone who supports free software should support each other. If there is
> a faction within the free software community that is antgonistic, that
> faction should be left alone to rant in their own little corner of the
> net.
>
> We do not want to be that faction. We do not even want to be _perceived_
> as being in that faction. Cooperation is the cornerstone of free software.
>
Fervor is appropriate in promoting one's position but should be
positive. I agree with David and you Jason.
Do not sink into a brawl in the gutter but actively promote FreeBSD.
We have nothing to apologize for or squabble about. A lot of bandwidth is
being wasted on "did you read what they said?!"
Spend it on promotion.
John
Powered by FreeBSD. All Day, Every Day... Non Stop.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 22:36:15 1998
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To: dwilde1@ibm.net
cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 19:20:18 PDT."
<354E7762.DE1F3279@ibm.net>
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Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:36:05 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Hi,
I forgot something and I want to get back to hacking after this.
I really appreciate what Brett is doing and he needs a little bit of support
from this group so please help him out. Again, if you are posting on
a forum such as the one in Infoworld just pretend that you are chatting on a
FreeBSD mailing lists.
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 22:40:19 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 MDT."
<199805042323.RAA11721@lariat.lariat.org>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Three out of the top of my head:
Walnut Creek, Yahoo, Whistle...
Also, I happen to have worked for a company which have sold multi million
dollar systems which use FreeBSD.
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 23:32:51 1998
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-Reply-To: <199805050540.WAA06755@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 4, 98 10:40:09 pm"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:32:23 -0500 (EST)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Amancio Hasty said:
>
> Three out of the top of my head:
> Walnut Creek, Yahoo, Whistle...
>
> Also, I happen to have worked for a company which have sold multi million
> dollar systems which use FreeBSD.
>
The biggest problem that I have with criteria like $1M or somesuch
is that kind of info is often proprietary, and serious businesses
often don't freely release such info in detail.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 23:37:45 1998
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To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
cc: brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 01:32:23 CDT."
<199805050632.BAA04056@dyson.iquest.net>
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Hi,
We can just state that some companies made > $1M in other words that
they are a serious business and that the details are confidential.
With respect to the linux side, we can always ask for detail financial data to
backup their claims 8)
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 00:19:29 1998
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To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
Cc: eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 01:32 AM 5/5/98 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
>The biggest problem that I have with criteria like $1M or somesuch
>is that kind of info is often proprietary, and serious businesses
>often don't freely release such info in detail.
>
>--
>John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
>dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
>jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
There's a bigger problem still. What about new products? Or small
ones that can't command a high price on their own but could e
added to a larger package?
Eric claims that the site is designed to interest businesses in
selling copies of "open source" software. But those businesspeople
aren't dumb; they don't want to hear about the items that 20
vendors are already selling. They're looking for "sleepers" and
for new opportunities. But if a product has to be grossing
$1M to get in the door, forget that.
I also noted, when talking to Eric, that all of the Linux vendors
make it difficult or impossible to do a Net install. (Red Hat, for
example, can't use PPP. What percentage of Net users out there
have something other than a dial-up connection? And Debian and
Slackware can't do it at all, to my knowledge.) So, they'll sell
more disks -- even if they have a smaller installed base.
--Brett
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 00:37:03 1998
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Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:37:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
To: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Kriston J. Rehberg" <kriston@ibm.net>,
David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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On 04-May-98 Open Systems Networking wisely wrote:
> Seriously though, I think that part of the problem with the "free" is bad
> mentality when talking about FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize
> just how used FreeBSD is in coporate america. No it isn't selling like
> Microsoft. But it also doesn't need to. It takes multiple NT servers to
> equal one FreeBSD server. It is alot easier to track NT sales #'s to
> FreeBSD. I have no proof of any of this, just speculation and deduction,
> but there are lot's of places running FreeBSD in some capacity. I don't
> know what capacity but places like bellcore, AT&T (and many sub-divisions
> therein), uu-net, and probably many others run FreeBSD on some of their
> servers. I think FreeBSD is very well respected in MANY places by MANY
> people. People who run the technical side of things in companies.
> And they have the right not to admit to it up front and outright.
> FreeBSD doesn't enforce a GPL like philosophy :) You run our OS and we
> FORCE you to proudly say so! heh
> It would be great if they did, it would probably do wonders for us and
> give us great publicity. But again they are not obligated to.
> And I could be dreaming this and imagining these places powering things
> with FreeBSD but i'm willing to bet im not. I dont think people realize
> this, simply because we don't have UU-Net or bellcore shouting "Hey! Over
> here! Run FreeBSD it is superior to eveything in existance! We power our
> electric socks with it!" Just some food for thought for those who think
> Free in FreeBSD has made FreeBSD a road less traveled.
>
Right!
That is why I feel we really need a web page on the FreeBSD site that highlites
the companies more. Then there is a place for people to see someone from BigXCo
saying " we use FreeBSD" That is something can can be looked at, counted and pa
raded.
Nicole
nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/
webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/
-------------------------------------------------
-- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD --
-- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman --
-- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? --
-- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked --
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 00:38:37 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 01:19:17 MDT."
<199805050719.BAA16851@lariat.lariat.org>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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We can setup our own version of opensource web page and include linux
related companies on small fonts . Additionally, as you suggested we
can have a different criteria for entering products or companies for
instance cool products which uses an alternative OS :FreeBSD. In other words,
we can create our own FreeBSD slanted sites .
Cool sites :
http://www.thinker.org serves images from its 3 tera byte plus image database.
Yahoo! it is FreeBSD : nice pointer to our news letter.
And the Comdex network appliance winner is ...
The InterJet by Whistle Corporation . Guess what OS the InterJet runs?
FreeBSD of course.
Sleep safely because FreeBSD is watching the skies ( a little while
ago someone was using FreeBSD for radar control )
Fly in comfort with jet engines designed with FreeBSD ( there was
a company in the list designing jet engines with FreeBSD)
Too bad we can not afford a Wall Street Journal full page ad :(
Cheers,
Amancio
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On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 20:33:20 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote:
>
> Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review.
> In their April issue we find the following:
> "FreeBSD, for example, is most robust at supporting high-end servers on
> Pentium hardware, as its TCP/IP stack is derivative of the extremely
> mature stack developed under DARPA's aegis at Berkeley, and it has been
> extensively optimized for Pentium hardware. Mr. Protocol prefers it for
> his own desktop network system, and it makes a good liniment and furniture
> polish as well".
> This is from "Ask Mr. Protocol" section written by Michael O'Brien
> -- it talked about free source and etc. Comments go to amp@cpg.com
Hmm, that wouldn't be our Mike O'Brien now, would it?
Greg
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Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:48:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
To: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates - promoted in syadmin magazine!
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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On 05-May-98 Don Wilde wisely wrote:
>> "Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual
>> runrate and I'll use it."
>>
>> Hmmm.
>
> Walnut Creek? NCI?
>
> Brett, real sysadmins know about FreeBSD. Look at Andreas' links, there
> are a number of articles out there that mention FreeBSD right alongside
> Solaris and AIX as viable platforms for _enterprise_ software.
>
This month FreeBSD was mentioned/promoted quite well in sysadmin magazine. www
.samag.com.
Nicole
> I think we should concentrate more on our software and ease-of-CLI-use
> and our demo tools. Don't panic, just write code. You've got to remember
> the mentality of the newsgroup surfer. He's a lot different than
> InfoWorld's print readership. Most of those who're responding to your
> posts are teenage surfers with nothing better to do. Even Joe Dad or Joe
> CEO -- who're serious contenders for our business -- won't go there. How
> many _real_software_writers_ like John Dyson or Amancio Hasty post
> responses to your posts??? There are some threads on these lists that
> are getting just as religious. Nobody wins, because we all waste
> bandwidth reading it and nobody is learning or writing code here. I
> don't like losing, so end of my input. I've got too much to learn. :))))
>
> --> Don
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>,
Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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On 05-May-98 Amancio Hasty wisely wrote:
>
> Three out of the top of my head:
> Walnut Creek, Yahoo, Whistle...
>
> Also, I happen to have worked for a company which have sold multi million
> dollar systems which use FreeBSD.
>
> Cheers,
> Amancio
If I manage to get my way at work, most all of our systems will be FreeBSD.
The new venrure will start will about 10 Servers being supported by 2 netapps to
grow to support 100-200K users. On top of the already 10 servers we have now.
The Commerce stuff will most likely go to the Sun Slowaris stuff however :<
BTW: Sysadmin wanted:
Must be FreeBSD freindly, Willing to work hard and cheap for fast growing start
up. Lots of oportunity to learrn and play with cool toys. Prima Dona's need not
apply. Experience is good, however willingness to learn and contibute to a group
is even better! Send email to nicole@mediacity.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 01:35:59 1998
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To: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, blender@neogeo.nl
Subject: Re: 3D "blender" package from NeoGeo now released.
In-reply-to: jkb's message of Mon, 04 May 1998 16:59:41 -0700.
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980504165527.20702B-100000@shell6.ba.best.com>
Reply-to: marc@bowtie.nl
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:34:58 +0200
From: Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
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>
> Hello Marc,
>
> It might seem that FreeBSD group makes less noise then Linux. And
> it is true to some extent because mostly FreeBSD users are more technical
> then Linux users and tend to try and solve problems on their own. I agree
> with you that we need more participation and simply noise to stand out in
> the computer world. Look, everyone complains about Windows and see how
> popular that is. Ok, I am going to walk down the hallway and scream
> something about FreeBSD now. Yeah, that's it. *grin*
>
I know all this, I have been using FreeBSD since 386BSD 0.1, but now
I'm standing at the other (vendor) side, and I can tell you that it
really makes a difference to hear a lot of noise.
I have received a lot of email since my "complaint" yesterday, please
keep it up.
And also take a look at the newsserver, and browse the messages.
They contain a lot of useful information about using the Blender.
http://goethe.bowtie.nl/cgi-bin/web-ssql/news-blender/index.ws
Marc.
----------------------------------------------------
Marc van Kempen BowTie Technology
Email: marc@bowtie.nl WWW & Databases
tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65
fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86 http://www.bowtie.nl
----------------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 01:42:25 1998
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there should be a list of available software under FreeBSD, But don´t think
to technical. List as much as possible of the standard stuff for the "normal
user". We are also commercial and we changed to FreeBSD from NT. See the
"commercial guys" will change to anything what will work fine for them in
relation to the costs. Offer remote support (i am sure there are a lot of
guys out there willing to do that job for $$$).
>
> The Commerce stuff will most likely go to the Sun Slowaris stuff however
:<
I think you always thing in to big dimensions.
karl m. joch
http://www.kmjeuro.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 01:59:21 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:58:39 -0700
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com>
To: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
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On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 12:37:21AM -0700, Nicole wrote:
>
> On 04-May-98 Open Systems Networking wisely wrote:
> > Seriously though, I think that part of the problem with the "free" is bad
> > mentality when talking about FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize
> > just how used FreeBSD is in coporate america. No it isn't selling like
[ Right, That's enough ]
>
> Right!
> That is why I feel we really need a web page on the FreeBSD site that
> highlites the companies more. Then there is a place for people to see
> someone from BigXCo saying " we use FreeBSD" That is something can can be
> looked at, counted and paraded.
>
Gotta agree here. I have been talking to a few startups lately and 3 times
the following has happened....
<Startup> "... HP and Solaris cost too much, SCO sucks too hard, and NT has
to be rebooted every week. How would solve this problem."
<Mercenary Bastard> "Have you looked into FreeBSD. Rant, Rant, Rant..."
<Startup> Eyes glaze over
<M.B.> "...it's used by Best Internet, Yahoo, Media City..."
<Startup> Comes to life. "Yahoo uses FreeBSD!?!?? Do you know what version,
how about the hardware they are running on. Can you build us a box just
like yahoo's ? What kind of network cards do they use. What color are their
network cables?...."
We need to emphasize the success we have had with large companys. From my
observation, the most common business model is the Lemming model otherwise
know as, "Me, Too!" (TM). A large number of business are content to follow
the hairy butt in front of them no matter where its going. Their thought is
"He is ahead of me, he must be doing something right. 50,000
lemmings^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hbusiness can't be wrong. What cliff?" I think this
explains the sudden rise in the popularity of Red Hat Linux.
One successful IPO using FreeBSD helps us gain more market share that 10
ISPs or 100 University research projects. The technical merits of FreeBSD
vs. Linux means little to these people. If we can produce an uptime at
least 10 times grater that the average NT box and be able to point to a
number of successful IPOs using FreeBSD then we have made a convert and a
sale.
Josef
--
Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.6
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 03:23:27 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 05:21:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: Phillip Salzman <advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org>
To: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
cc: Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG,
Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Subject: Re: 3D "blender" package from NeoGeo now released.
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On Mon, 4 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote:
> Hello Marc,
>
> It might seem that FreeBSD group makes less noise then Linux. And
> it is true to some extent because mostly FreeBSD users are more technical
> then Linux users and tend to try and solve problems on their own. I agree
> with you that we need more participation and simply noise to stand out in
> the computer world. Look, everyone complains about Windows and see how
> popular that is. Ok, I am going to walk down the hallway and scream
> something about FreeBSD now. Yeah, that's it. *grin*
>
Noise, attention, media. Its coming, its what we need. The
other factor we are going to need is users participating in
full contact.
Recently the article on C|Net was very good, it detailed several
things about the OS (although, I personally did not like the
name of the figure they chose to 'test' FreeBSD).
That is what we need, we need the people screaming in halls,
court houses, supermarkets, computer stores, Linux conventions,
partys, really really cool partys, and even in outer space. The
aliens will love this OS.
Do you get what i'm saying? Its coming... just remember to
participate.
Phillip Salzman
.sig files suck eclipse@gulf.net
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 05:06:22 1998
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From: Andreas Klemm <aklemm@hightek.com>
To: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote:
>
> Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review.
> In their April issue we find the following:
URL ? I doesn't find it ... :-/
--
B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal <aklemm@hightek.com>
phone +49 202 7399 - 170 <andreas@FreeBSD.ORG>
fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 05:17:24 1998
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> The ideal "UI layer", of course, would treat the back-end "scribble on
> the screen" bits abstractly enough that you could use the same "stick
> me up a form that looks like this" code for both X and TTY
COAS (www.coas.org) does this for command line, curses, X, and Java, in
a modular design so that configuration tools for other programs can be
plugged in. It's also designed to be backwards compatible (i.e. changing
files directly won't cause problems with later edits in coas), also it
has options to show what changes are being made, source code available
for download (caldera made it available for the rest of linux world, I
haven't looked at the code yet but surely a port will be easier than
coding from scratch, and anything that makes moving from Linux to
FreeBSD easier can't hurt either :-)
Stuart
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 07:40:13 1998
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Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:34:42 -0400
From: Jerry Hicks <jhicks@rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com>
Organization: Glenayre Electronics, Inc.
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To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing
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Open Systems Networking wrote:
> Seriously though, I think that part of the problem
> with the "free" is bad mentality when talking about
> FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize just how
> used FreeBSD is in coporate america.
In this corner of corporate America, Glenayre - Atlanta GA,
we just finished development of a large scale telephony
switching system. FreeBSD was used as the host development
environment.
Quite simply, FreeBSD offers the most full featured and stable
cross development host we've ever had the priviledge of working
with.
Cheers,
Jerry Hicks
jhicks@glenatl.glenayre.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 07:47:41 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:47:01 -0500
From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
Cc: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG,
Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates - promoted in syadmin magazine!
References: <354E7762.DE1F3279@ibm.net> <XFMail.980505004821.freelist@webweaver.net>
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On May 05, 1998 at 12:48:21AM -0700, Nicole wrote:
> This month FreeBSD was mentioned/promoted quite well in sysadmin
> magazine. www.samag.com.
[ plus other reference to an article by Mr. Protocol in SunWorld ]
Is anyone collecting these news stories, and putting links to them
from the FreeBSD web page? That would be a cheap way of advocating
FreeBSD - "look at FBSD in the media!" We have a lot of positive press!
--
Jonathan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 08:28:04 1998
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From: John Reynolds~ <jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com>
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:27:24 -0700 (MST)
To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: ports/packages--misunderstood
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> [ Jordan K. Hubbard said: ]
>
> Blech. I don't participate in dicussions there because their
> braindead (sorry, braindead) discussion threader makes it too darn
> difficult to figure out where the discussion is at any given point and
> which of the many independent threads one should reply to. It's just
> not worth the hassle when I can just stick to NEWS (which has its own
> problems, yes, but at least they're tractable ones for me).
Oh, indeed I was not saying participate in discussions. I never do either.
slashdot.org is filled with too much FUD (I check the pages just to see
"other" developments and announcements, like The Gimp, etc.).
> [ snip ]
> We finished our own 1st generation packaging technology several years
> back and are now simply struggling with having become stuck on our way
> to implementing the 2nd. :(
forgive my ignorance, but what are the problems with the current
ports/packages system? I'm truly curious because as an end-user, I think
the system works rather nicely.
> In any case, it's forward rather than lateral movement that we need
> right now and switching to someone else's 1st generation technology
> would be an example of lateral (if not backward) movement.
Absolutely. I was -NOT- advocating having FreeBSD move to anything that
the linux community has come up with. I was merely posting a reference to
something where some linux folks were arguing about whose distribution
method was best, blah blah blah. That is one thing I think is cool about
FreeBSD--EVERYTHING is "synced" to a release. You know that port XYZ is
going to work when you type "make". No need to argue what format is best.
That's the point I was trying to make reference too (for people that might
be reading this list wondering the age-old question "Linux vs. FreeBSD").
Cheers,
-Jr
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| John Reynolds C-TEAM CLE - Central Design Services |
| Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 |
| jreynold@sedona.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 08:35:39 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:34:48 -0400
Message-ID: <2738-Tue05May1998113448-0400-kriston@ibm.net>
From: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg)
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Subject: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences?
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I've cut my teeth on all the free Unixes except OpenBSD. After using
FreeBSD, I'm reluctant to move on since I've found that it's so much
better than NetBSD and the Linuxes. Among those of you who have used
OpenBSD, what qualities does it possess, besides cross-platform ports
and self-proclaimed security hardening, that would make it any more or
less viable than FreeBSD? I've read all the info about all of them,
but am reluctant to try OpenBSD.
Thanks,
Kris
PS...To try to avoid a flagrant idealism flame-war, I'm asking that
you reply only if you've actually used OpenBSD.
--
Kriston J. Rehberg
AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 09:31:58 1998
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Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default / sysinstall II
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> COAS (www.coas.org) does this for command line, curses, X, and Java, in
> a modular design so that configuration tools for other programs can be
> plugged in. It's also designed to be backwards compatible (i.e. changing
> files directly won't cause problems with later edits in coas), also it
> has options to show what changes are being made, source code available
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What would that look like?
Incidentally, would it be useful for the config program to do something
like rcs or CVS on the major config files automatically to allow easy
undos and (perhaps) multiple configurations? (Either by default or as an
option.)
Ben.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 10:44:12 1998
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To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk
cc: Stuart Henderson <stuart@internationalschool.co.uk>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default / sysinstall II
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 17:25:55 BST."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980505172324.291B-100000@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:41:45 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Incidentally, would it be useful for the config program to do something
> like rcs or CVS on the major config files automatically to allow easy
> undos and (perhaps) multiple configurations? (Either by default or as an
> option.)
Probably not - most folks wouldn't know what to do with the information
anyway.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 10:59:27 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:59:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: Andreas Klemm <aklemm@hightek.com>
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up.
In-Reply-To: <19980505140606.09773@hightek.com>
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I typed the mail by hand -- no copy and paste from the web. The
article might not be on the web yet -- don't know. Sorry :)
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux == DOS of the Unix world.
On Tue, 5 May 1998, Andreas Klemm wrote:
>On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote:
>>
>> Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review.
>> In their April issue we find the following:
>
>URL ? I doesn't find it ... :-/
>
>--
>B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal <aklemm@hightek.com>
>phone +49 202 7399 - 170 <andreas@FreeBSD.ORG>
>fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 11:02:00 1998
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From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up.
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Wouldn't know. Who is our Mike O'Brien btw -- I am bad with names?
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux == DOS of the Unix world.
On Tue, 5 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 20:33:20 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote:
>>
>> Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review.
>> In their April issue we find the following:
>> "FreeBSD, for example, is most robust at supporting high-end servers on
>> Pentium hardware, as its TCP/IP stack is derivative of the extremely
>> mature stack developed under DARPA's aegis at Berkeley, and it has been
>> extensively optimized for Pentium hardware. Mr. Protocol prefers it for
>> his own desktop network system, and it makes a good liniment and furniture
>> polish as well".
>> This is from "Ask Mr. Protocol" section written by Michael O'Brien
>> -- it talked about free source and etc. Comments go to amp@cpg.com
>
>Hmm, that wouldn't be our Mike O'Brien now, would it?
>
>Greg
>--
>See complete headers for address and phone numbers
>finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-Reply-To: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "May 4, 98 07:16:02 pm"
To: dg@root.com
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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According to David Greenman:
> >I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers
> >showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there.
>
> No, I've never quoted hard numbers. I think doing so, as a contractor for
> WC CDROM, would be unethical and possibly illegal. I think it would be best
> to drop this type of 'attack' against the Stallmanites as it will only serve
> to further polarize people against us and I definately DON'T want that to
> happen. We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and
> working on converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of
> rhetoric.
>
Finally a breath of fresh air. We in the BSD ``camp''
would do better to co-operate that compete. Any victory
would be Pyrrhic at best.
One reason we humans have survived these score millennia
is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual
effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative,
maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features
from each were shared.
Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software
paradigm; it's a matter of degree.
gary
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 12:21:26 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:20:47 +0100 (BST)
From: Ben Cohen <bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
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cc: Stuart Henderson <stuart@internationalschool.co.uk>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default / sysinstall II
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Hi!
> > Incidentally, would it be useful for the config program to do something
> > like rcs or CVS on the major config files automatically to allow easy
> > undos and (perhaps) multiple configurations? (Either by default or as an
> > option.)
>
> Probably not - most folks wouldn't know what to do with the information
> anyway.
I'm assuming that this is entirely integrated into the config program,
so that rcs would be completely transparent.
The config program could have an option (e.g. either a single option from
the main menu, or more likely an option from each config screen, like
kernel, devices, printers, etc.) to look at and possibly retrieve
previous setups.
This might be useful for retrieving previous configurations if a mistake
has been made. (For example, if the config program supports kernel config
then the user can go back to the previous kernel(s) if something is
broken.)
Multiple configurations (like different hardware profiles in MS Windows)
could be selected. Thus, for instance, when at university I have an
ethernet connection, but I don't at home; I can't be bothered to change
all the network settings each time I go home and come back, so when I'm at
home I have to wait for attempted network connections to time out. If
multiple configs were available then I could just switch each time.
I don't know if rcs has any facility to remove data older than a certain
age, but this could be added to stop the *,v files growing too large. It
would also be handy as the *,v would be a sort of backup for each config
file in case of corruption etc. Of course, the great disadvantage then
would be that any manual changes wouldn't be recorded in the *,v file
unless the user used rcs to make the change---but in this case the config
program could (=must) save the change as a new revision.
Comments in rcs need not be entered by the user (except for describing
different configs), but the config program could put in something
intelligent like "Changes made by setup program" or "Changes made by user"
if the config file had changed since the last time the config program
changed the file (i.e. the user had changed it manually).
The config program could have an option _to_ use the rcs system or not
to---this might be useful for backwards-compatability, for example. There
could also be an option so that the rcs comments could be added
automatically as above or by hand if the user wanted.
If the config program has (as I suggested before) perhaps three different
user-selectable levels, "Newbie", "Intermediate" and "Advanced", the rcs
bit might only be available for the "Advanced" setting.
By the way, what do people think of having about three different levels
like this? (Sort of like the three different levels of installation in
/stand/sysinstall.) I think it would be nice as it would allow an
easy-to-use basic setup for newbies, a more comprehensive setup for people
who need an extra bit of control, and an advanced setting which has lots
of unusual and powerful features?
I don't know how much programming this would take (it depends on the way
the config program is written) but it might be worth it. In any case,
once the rcs thing is written once it presumably doesn't take much more
effort to use it for each config file (given that rcs itself can be used
and that the config files have to be loaded and saved anyway). And the
three settings might be OK to write depending on the toolkit used.
This does mean, however, that the sysinstall program [which hopefully will
be renamed something like setup!] might have to have it's _own_ config
file!
Please let me know whether you think the ideas above are helpful or
complete rubbish!
Thanks...
Ben.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 12:27:37 1998
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Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:25:15 -0600
To: Gary Kline <kline@tera.tera.com>, dg@root.com
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
Cc: eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com>
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At 11:08 AM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote:
> One reason we humans have survived these score millennia
> is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual
> effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative,
> maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features
> from each were shared.
>
> Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software
> paradigm; it's a matter of degree.
One would certainly hope so! But tune in to that InfoWorld forum
to see what's actually going on. Anyone who critiques the GPL
is *immediately* branded a "Linux basher," a "zealot," or worse.
Ditto anyone who points out areas in which FreeBSD has advantages
over Linux. The rhetoric is *nasty*, guys.
One can interpret all of this in different ways, but my take is
that it's because Richard Stallman's vision -- which seeks to preclude
the development of commercial software wherever possible -- relies on
compelling authors to use the GPL. The presence of any alternative
to the GPL -- and, especially, publicizing it -- throws a monkey wrench
into the works! Hence the fury of those who bash the BSDs and tout
the GPL as essential to the collaborative development of software.
What can folks do? The key things to say are as follows:
1. The Berkeley-style license is an alternative to the GPL, and it has
been shown to be at least equally effective in promoting the development
of free software.
2. In addition, the Berkeley-style license promotes the development of
commercial software, which is advantageous to all developers and to
consumers.
3. FreeBSD, which is published under a Berkeley-style license, is every
bit as good as Linux and is superior in many respects.
All of these points are PROVABLY correct. Nonetheless, one will often
be flamed for making them. I think the correct thing to do is to make
them anyway, then walk away from the flames.
--Brett Glass
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 12:49:47 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:49:27 +0200
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, Gary Kline <kline@tera.tera.com>,
dg@root.com
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
References: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com> <199805051925.NAA24410@lariat.lariat.org>
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In-Reply-To: <199805051925.NAA24410@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:15PM -0600
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On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 11:08 AM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote:
>
> > One reason we humans have survived these score millennia
> > is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual
> > effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative,
> > maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features
> > from each were shared.
> >
> > Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software
> > paradigm; it's a matter of degree.
>
> One would certainly hope so! But tune in to that InfoWorld forum
> to see what's actually going on. Anyone who critiques the GPL
> is *immediately* branded a "Linux basher," a "zealot," or worse.
> Ditto anyone who points out areas in which FreeBSD has advantages
> over Linux. The rhetoric is *nasty*, guys.
Sorry - I don't agree. In the forums, you _do_ tend to come over as a
zealot and Linux basher. (And claiming that I get this impression
because I'm a closet Linuxial won't get you anywhere ;-)
You'd come over much better if you qualified your statement to not
only be technically correct, but also being correct in context (not
holding back information etc).
Be careful to give the correct impression, admit to weaknesses (or at
least those weaknesses you can afford to admit to), and you can give
an extremely honest impression - which is much more effective. The
combination of technical excellence and an impression of honesty can
easily convert lurkers (which probably should be the real target in
the discussion).
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 13:22:19 1998
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 11:08:06 PDT."
<199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Curious, why can't you post such nice message to the Infoworld forum??
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 13:22:36 1998
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Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:22:07 -0600
From: Sean Kelly <kelly@plutotech.com>
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To: "Jan B. Koum" <jkb@best.com>
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Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up.
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> Wouldn't know. Who is our Mike O'Brien btw -- I am bad with names?
That'd be Mr Protocol---or, more accurately, the author of the Mr
Protocol column. Check the byline.
It's nice to have such a columnist as a FreeBSD user: the occasional
plugs are definitely worthwhile.
--Sean
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 13:56:45 1998
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-Reply-To: <199805052021.NAA03311@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 5, 98 01:21:52 pm"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: kline@tera.tera.com, dg@root.com, brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no,
chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com
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According to Amancio Hasty:
> Curious, why can't you post such nice message to the Infoworld forum??
>
What? and get flamed!!?
What's their URL? Brett? David? Anybody?
gary
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 14:02:22 1998
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Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:01:17 -0600
To: Gary Kline <kline@tera.tera.com>, hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
Cc: kline@tera.tera.com, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com
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The URL of the Forum is
http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767
You can read it without registering, but to post you need to fill
out a short registration form. Very little on the form is mandatory.
--Brett
At 01:55 PM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote:
>According to Amancio Hasty:
>> Curious, why can't you post such nice message to the Infoworld forum??
>>
>
> What? and get flamed!!?
>
> What's their URL? Brett? David? Anybody?
>
> gary
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 14:09:46 1998
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Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-Reply-To: <19980505214927.34624@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "May 5, 98 09:49:27 pm"
To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:08:36 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, kline@tera.tera.com, dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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According to Eivind Eklund:
> On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> > At 11:08 AM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote:
> >
> > > One reason we humans have survived these score millennia
> > > is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual
> > > effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative,
> > > maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features
> > > from each were shared.
> > >
> > > Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software
> > > paradigm; it's a matter of degree.
> >
> > One would certainly hope so! But tune in to that InfoWorld forum
> > to see what's actually going on. Anyone who critiques the GPL
> > is *immediately* branded a "Linux basher," a "zealot," or worse.
> > Ditto anyone who points out areas in which FreeBSD has advantages
> > over Linux. The rhetoric is *nasty*, guys.
Oh, no doubt. We've had some nasty little
spats ourselves. If there _is_ a way of
combatting such bias ((short of getting an
Uzi and moving these people down in hot blood))
it is to speak up with an informed reason.
Sort of ``the BIG LIE'' in reverse. If, after
hearing our side of things, the majority isn't
swayed, well, too bad....
>
> Sorry - I don't agree. In the forums, you _do_ tend to come over as a
> zealot and Linux basher. (And claiming that I get this impression
> because I'm a closet Linuxial won't get you anywhere ;-)
>
I'm sure that Brett can fight his own battles;
but from knowing him as a fellow porter, he's
fair and mellow. He's got something most lack:
enthusiasm!
gary
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 14:32:53 1998
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Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:37:42 -0700
To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Brian Behlendorf <brian@hyperreal.org>
Subject: streaming media serving w/FreeBSD
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Has anyone used FreeBSD for *extensive* RealMedia serving, particularly
video? I.e., have you done load tests to determine exactly how many
streams a FreeBSD server with a given CPU/mboard/memory/disk/network IO
configuration can handle. I may have an application which will need 1000's
of simultaneous streams, and I'd like to host it on the platform I feel
gives the greatest serving power per dollar, which currently seems to be
FreeBSD. Also looking for experience on using reflectors for live content...
Brian
--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
pure chewing satisfaction brian@apache.org
brian@hyperreal.org
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 14:45:18 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Message-Id: <199805052145.OAA03772@rah.star-gate.com>
To: brett@lariat.org, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, kline@tera.tera.com
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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Hi Eivind,
It is a true exercise in patience in dealing with the
"wild crazed linux zealots". My experience have shown
me that once you brand "them" as zealots then things
then to precipitate to a sanity level. We are dealing
with a social/cultural phenomena with no scientific
basis . Again, lets take this nice chat to the Infoworld
forum .
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 17:45:40 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:34:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jay Nelson <jdn@acp.qiv.com>
To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" <kriston@ibm.net>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences?
In-Reply-To: <2738-Tue05May1998113448-0400-kriston@ibm.net>
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On Tue, 5 May 1998, Kriston J. Rehberg wrote:
>I've cut my teeth on all the free Unixes except OpenBSD. After using
>FreeBSD, I'm reluctant to move on since I've found that it's so much
>better than NetBSD and the Linuxes. Among those of you who have used
>OpenBSD, what qualities does it possess, besides cross-platform ports
>and self-proclaimed security hardening, that would make it any more or
>less viable than FreeBSD? I've read all the info about all of them,
>but am reluctant to try OpenBSD.
OpenBSD is quite nice. It demands much more of the casual admin than
FreeBSD and the ports are just beginning to develop. The security
appears to be there and is probably easier to bring up a hardened
system with OpenBSD that FreeBSD -- but to be fair, Canada doesn't
have (yet) the anal idiocy of ITAR. It appears to be almost as
efficient as FreeBSD on the intel platform and, I think, as reliable
-- at least in the environments in which I've used it. I haven't used
it on other platforms -- so I can't speak to that. (I like it as well
or better than SunOS -- if that helps.)
It would be my first choice on a platform other than Intel -- and
probably my first choice on intel for firewalls which had to do IPSec
or kerberos KDCs. Not because FreeBSD can't do it well -- but because
OpenBSD makes it much easier.
There appears to be a lot of cooperation between FreeBSD and OpenBSD
which benefits us all. I hope that continues and doesn't degenerate
into the Linux vs. FreeBSD fiasco. The OpenBSD people have done a good
job despite the smoke and steam. We should encourage and cooperate.
-- Jay
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 18:38:56 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
cc: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>,
Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <19980504010604.28183@follo.net>
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Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com
getting our source or OS?
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux == DOS of the Unix world.
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote:
>On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
>> > They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a
>> > LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source
>> > sometime.
>> >
>> > One example: They have to credit the University of California at
>> > Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in
>> > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT.
>>
>> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4?
>> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better.
>
>Then we're dealing with license violation. I don't think GPLing
>something will help you if you assume the license will be violated.
>
>Of course, the GPL is viral, and as a such might be more scary. A
>neat hack might be to create a BSD-style license which goes viral if
>violated :-)
>
>Eivind.
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 19:08:45 1998
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: brett@lariat.org, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, kline@tera.tera.com,
advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 14:45:01 PDT."
<199805052145.OAA03772@rah.star-gate.com>
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:08:04 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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Hmmm. First off, let's stop posting this thread to both -chat
and -advocacy. Most of us only need to see these messages ONCE. :-)
Second, I notice you're very strongly in support of people talking
in the Infoworld forum but I don't see anything at all from Amancio
Hasty in there - whatever happened to leading by EXAMPLE? :-)
- Jordan
> Hi Eivind,
> It is a true exercise in patience in dealing with the
> "wild crazed linux zealots". My experience have shown
> me that once you brand "them" as zealots then things
> then to precipitate to a sanity level. We are dealing
> with a social/cultural phenomena with no scientific
> basis . Again, lets take this nice chat to the Infoworld
> forum .
>
> Cheers,
> Amancio
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 20:22:47 1998
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advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
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<21715.894420484@time.cdrom.com>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Hi,
I have posted on the Infoworld forum as well as Dyson when he had the
flu -- I heard that the linux crowd wishes Dyson good health 8)
A slight point of clarification I am not the leader when it comes to
public relations please folks look more towards Brett Glass .
It is very , very, nice to have a good journalist on our side;additionally,
he has the contacts and resources to further push the issues however
he does need FreeBSD support.
What I really envision is pushing Brett all the way to a national spotlight
be in some technical forum, senate hearing or tv show .
That said , I think I will stop by in the Infoworld forum tonite 8)
Regards,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 21:43:27 1998
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To: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>,
Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>,
chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 17:56:17 PDT."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980505175532.13709J-100000@shell6.ba.best.com>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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> Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com
>getting our source or OS?
I know that we have microsoft people on-board so what?
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 21:44:46 1998
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Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:44:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>,
Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>,
chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <199805060440.VAA05416@rah.star-gate.com>
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On Tue, 5 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote:
>> Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>getting our source or OS?
>
>I know that we have microsoft people on-board so what?
>
> Amancio
>
>
>
Which board?
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux == DOS of the Unix world.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 22:37:15 1998
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 01:26:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@nvl.virginia.edu>
Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@virginia.edu>
To: Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= <dag-erli@ifi.uio.no>
cc: David Kelly <dkelly@hiwaay.net>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <xzp4sz6dtt4.fsf@hrotti.ifi.uio.no>
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On 4 May 1998, Dag-Erling Coidan [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote:
> David Kelly <dkelly@hiwaay.net> writes:
> > I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser
> > source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same
> > with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well,
> > at least not much in IBM scale.
>
> You might be surprised.
Yup, most people are. Many people who predict the downfall of
unix cannot even list the number one vendor because it doesn't register on
the technical horizon for most of us. Funny thing is that its competition
does.
Last I heard the network OS vendors were ranked as follows:
1. MS WinNT server
2. Novell Netware
3. SCO OpernServer
4. IBM OS/2
I forget whether the metric was dollars of sale or number of
copies.
Adrian
--
adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and
System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer,
Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it.....
http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 00:28:29 1998
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Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:30:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nicole <freelist@webweaver.net>
To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Publicity!
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Hey...
I sent this before, but it didn't seem that anyone noticed.. so here again
This month FreeBSD was mentioned/promoted quite well in sysadmin magazine. www
.samag.com.
Another link from the FreeBSD page?
Nicole
nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/
webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 07:38:23 1998
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From: Adam Turoff <AdamT@smginc.com>
To: "'freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG'" <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: RE: linux world contemplate packages ...
Date: Wed, 06 May 98 10:37:00 PDT
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> > I just saw this on slashdot.org:
> >
>> http://slashdot.org/articles/9804041623214.shtml
>
> [...]
> In any case, I don't see anything in any of the discussion there that
> hasn't been said before and in considerably more detail. Everyone
> basically knows what the All Singing All Dancing package manager of
> the future is supposed to do and they also know that RPMs, DEBs TGZs
> and all the other current packaging formats are *first generation*
> efforts which are deeply in need of moving on to the second generation.
>
> Even the staunchest adherent to any of the current package standards
> will admit that there's a growing list of wish list items for their
> pet standard, some of which are quite important (like signatures,
> better "auditing" of changes, improved [or any] provisions for
> updates, etc), that really need to go into the 2nd generation effort.
> We finished our own 1st generation packaging technology several years
> back and are now simply struggling with having become stuck on our way
> to implementing the 2nd. :(
With all due respect, waiving away all of the linux packaging efforts as
1st generation is a bit heavy-handed. The last I checked, RPM with
all of its warts can do PGP signing. (Of course, that doesn't
necessarily
make it 2nd generation...)
Yes, linux is bogus and linux packaging is bogus. Having something
simple like FreeBSD ports (where you know your system ships with
a working make, [g]cc, etc.) really solves problems like libc vs. glibc,
2.0.x vs 2.1.x, alpha vs sparc vs 386 vs Pentium vs MIPS vs PPC, etc.
But waiving away all linux-centric projects outright is also bogus,
because
enough action like that would make anyone look like a Guy Kawasaki-esque
evangelist puppet.
> In any case, it's forward rather than lateral movement that we need
> right now and switching to someone else's 1st generation technology
> would be an example of lateral (if not backward) movement.
Again, with all due respect, there are people out there (OK, at least me)
interested in the "distribution problem" who can learn from the mistakes
of the RPM/Debian/Slackware designers before mucking about in Ports.
Apologies for not following the recent threads in -advocacy, but there's
something to be learned from Linux, if only how not to make the same
mistakes twice.
-- Adam.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 09:01:22 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: brett@lariat.org, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, kline@tera.tera.com,
advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 19:08:04 PDT."
<21715.894420484@time.cdrom.com>
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Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:00:35 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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>Second, I notice you're very strongly in support of people talking
>in the Infoworld forum but I don't see anything at all from Amancio
Hi,
Done!
Sat down last nite and happily posted to the Infoworld forum .
http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767
Happy War!
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 12:27:06 1998
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:25:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu
To: FreeBSD-advocacy <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: The importance of InfoWorld
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Simple question.
Why is InfoWorld such a prevalent topic here on this list? There are
manifold places that discussions take place on the net.
Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at.
Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 20:08:28 1998
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To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Latest News from the "Front-lines"
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Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:08:16 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Do we have any really big servers such as DejaNews or Web Servers
with equivalent functionality as DejaNews?
Tnks,
Amancio
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our site serves about 4 million pageviews per day from 9 CGI servers.
Our CGIs are radically more complex than most people's.
As far as static documents go, they can each put out about 50 pageviews
per second (which would be much higher than 4 million per day).
We have certainly taken it far. We operate the world's largest publicly
accessible text database entirely on Linux servers. Our database is about 350
GB of fully indexed text. (find
any word or combination of words with boolean operators in any document)
Doing the calculations, each of their servers (dual-processor Pentiums I
read somewhere) can serve approximately 50Gig per day over HTTP, assuming a
15K page size. This
size was arrived at by sampling a few hits on their server. Again, HTTP
is a different beast than FTP, being made up of many smaller requests for each
page.
FreeBSD runs the largest FTP site on the Internet; Linux runs the
largest free text database on the Internet.
I'd say that speaks quite highly of BOTH systems.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 20:31:23 1998
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:30:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Latest News from the "Front-lines"
In-Reply-To: <199805070308.UAA10996@rah.star-gate.com>
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On Wed, 6 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote:
>
> Do we have any really big servers such as DejaNews or Web Servers
> with equivalent functionality as DejaNews?
Hmm other than Yahoo, the only place I know of that has high volume web
traffic is ebay the auction place. They get almost as many hits as yahoo
on a single can like 8 million a day or something. www.ebay.com
Chris
--
"I don't do favors, I accumulate debts"
===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security
===================================| http://open-systems.net
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 21:25:31 1998
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Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:24:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@nvl.virginia.edu>
Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@virginia.edu>
To: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
cc: FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505175532.13709J-100000@shell6.ba.best.com>
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On Tue, 5 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com
> getting our source or OS?
>
> -- Yan
well, for quite a while there was a freebsd box in redmon MS HQ on
the mbone "pictures of the world" channel. I don't know if it is still
there.
Adrian
--
adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and
System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer,
Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it.....
http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 01:34:51 1998
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Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:33:39 +0200 (CEST)
From: Remy NONNENMACHER <remy@synx.com>
Reply-To: remy@synx.com
Subject: Re: Latest News from the "Front-lines"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 6 May, Amancio Hasty wrote:
>
> Do we have any really big servers such as DejaNews or Web Servers
> with equivalent functionality as DejaNews?
>
> Tnks,
> Amancio
>
There is little guys in Norway, ftpsearch (http://ftpsearch.ntnu.no)
who do a great job with FreeBSD. They have a very very fast file
name search from a large database of public ftp servers. Have a look.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 07:34:10 1998
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Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:52:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stuart Krivis <stuart@apk.net>
To: Jay Nelson <jdn@acp.qiv.com>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences?
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On Tue, 5 May 1998, Jay Nelson wrote:
> There appears to be a lot of cooperation between FreeBSD and OpenBSD
> which benefits us all. I hope that continues and doesn't degenerate
> into the Linux vs. FreeBSD fiasco. The OpenBSD people have done a good
> job despite the smoke and steam. We should encourage and cooperate.
The only drawback is thatI have not been able to find inexpensive OpenBSD
CDs like are available for FreeBSD.
--
Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 09:22:39 1998
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To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
cc: Mariusz Potocki <potok@friko.onet.pl>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG,
hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Steve Shoecraft <steve.shoecraft@microchip.com>
Subject: New Advocacy Mission: (Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD )
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 May 1998 02:27:01 PDT."
<Pine.BSF.3.95.980507022429.28493A-100000@current1.whistle.com>
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Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 09:20:53 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Brief: I am sick and tire of listening to ISPs stating that they would love
to have a supported version of Oracle's database.
Target : Oracle and NCI
Objective: Secure option to purchase Oracle 7 from either NCI or Oracle
What we need is contacts, fax numbers, e-mail address so we can ask for
Oracle 7.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 11:48:04 1998
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Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: Mariusz Potocki <potok@friko.onet.pl>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG,
hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Steve Shoecraft <steve.shoecraft@microchip.com>
Subject: Re: New Advocacy Mission: (Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD )
In-Reply-To: <199805071620.JAA00452@rah.star-gate.com>
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remember, they HAVE such a beast, they are just not selling it....
john, can you do 10 minutes of research and get the name of a sales person
to call..? then we can put it in the archives to make sure all the calls
go through the same place.
On Thu, 7 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> Brief: I am sick and tire of listening to ISPs stating that they would love
> to have a supported version of Oracle's database.
>
> Target : Oracle and NCI
>
> Objective: Secure option to purchase Oracle 7 from either NCI or Oracle
>
> What we need is contacts, fax numbers, e-mail address so we can ask for
> Oracle 7.
>
> End - Of - Transmission
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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>
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Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 23:40:29 +0200
From: Sune Stjerneby <stjerneby@usa.net>
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Organization: Organised, me?
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To: Stuart Krivis <stuart@apk.net>
CC: Jay Nelson <jdn@acp.qiv.com>, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences?
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980507095147.16566B-100000@junior.apk.net>
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Stuart Krivis wrote:
>
> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Jay Nelson wrote:
>
> > There appears to be a lot of cooperation between FreeBSD and OpenBSD
> > which benefits us all. I hope that continues and doesn't degenerate
> > into the Linux vs. FreeBSD fiasco. The OpenBSD people have done a good
> > job despite the smoke and steam. We should encourage and cooperate.
>
> The only drawback is thatI have not been able to find inexpensive OpenBSD
> CDs like are available for FreeBSD.
Hmm, I got my OpenBSD 2.2 two-disc set free of charge (no shipping
charges either) from a German vendor - He stated that he couldn't make
profit of them anyway. That's inexpensive for ya. But of course, the
distribution is nowhere near as widespread as other 4.4BSD derivees or
Linux, even.
Otherwise, there's NetBSD on the two-disc BSDisc set from InfoMagic
(with FreeBSD also). One can only hope that this set will someday
include all three freely available 4.4BSD derivees.
--
//bwulf - Sune Stjerneby <stjerneby@usa.net>
-- "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur."
-- "4.4BSD UNIX - A Real Operating System for Real Users."
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 17:28:09 1998
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Subject: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS..
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http://www.ci.infobeads.com/INSIDER/PAGES/TOPICS/INTERNET/ISP_HW_0505/Default.asp
Hrm, and FreeBSD was nowhere to be found. Interesting.
- alex
"Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern
technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat."
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 17:28:36 1998
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To: stjerneby@usa.net
cc: Stuart Krivis <stuart@apk.net>, Jay Nelson <jdn@acp.qiv.com>,
freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 May 1998 23:40:29 +0200."
<35522A4D.26CFCC60@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:28:04 -0700
Message-ID: <9759.894587284@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Otherwise, there's NetBSD on the two-disc BSDisc set from InfoMagic
> (with FreeBSD also). One can only hope that this set will someday
I think this has actually been discontinued - I haven't seen an update
in ages.
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 21:25:55 1998
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Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Books (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 2:27:01 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote:
>>
>> My best suggestion is for people to NAG ORACLE and NC!
>> you need to get pressure at the sales office.
>
>Julian's right. It seems that nagging convinced O'Reilly to publish a
>FreeBSD book, despite years of attempts on my part (and proof that the
>book was selling well). Oracle seems a good next target.
>
>Greg
>--
Did I read that right? ORA finally doing FreeBSD book after all?
-- Yan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 21:42:03 1998
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Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 21:25:28 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote:
> On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 2:27:01 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote:
>>>
>>> My best suggestion is for people to NAG ORACLE and NC!
>>> you need to get pressure at the sales office.
>>
>> Julian's right. It seems that nagging convinced O'Reilly to publish a
>> FreeBSD book, despite years of attempts on my part (and proof that the
>> book was selling well). Oracle seems a good next target.
>
> Did I read that right? ORA finally doing FreeBSD book after all?
Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment,
Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to
change.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 07:09:51 1998
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Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 07:01:25 -0700
From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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Simply put, InfoWorld is the most prominent of the weekly trade papers
dealing with networking and Internet issues. It is also one that is
beginning to bring respectibility to freeware through its columns and
editorial stance. The recent thread has related to IW Electric, which is
their on-line version.
Unfortunately, IW-E is degenerating into a flameware slugfest, and my
fear is that this present anti-GPL crusade is going to turn off a lot of
honest systems people who want working solutions and not controversy. I
don't go there anymore.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 07:23:15 1998
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From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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It went reasonably well, gave out half of the CD's. Participation wasn't
great, auditorium was only half full (~45). My talk was well received,
but I didn't sense a lot of movement from the 'suits' portion of the
crowd. What, I have to learn to do it myself? I can't just reboot and
solve all my problems? <raspberry> John Gallant (Sr. Editor of NWW) was
definitely interested, he asked for an eval copy.
Out on the floor, the main comment I got was that we need to find a way
to generate hard numbers. Our first target need not be W-NT, but if we
can show comparable numbers of servers or seats to an HP or Sun or AIX,
we will be on their radar screens for serious products like Netective
and Oracle and such, things we need. These people don't care how much
your hardware or OS costs, only that we are a viable potential customer
for them. We are, we just need to convince them of that. They are also
well aware that we exist and that our platform works. That is not the
problem. Numbers to convince beancounters, that IS the problem.
--> Don
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 07:36:51 1998
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To: dwilde1@ibm.net
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 07:21:55 PDT."
<35531503.6A81283D@ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 07:35:40 -0700
Message-ID: <10966.894638140@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> It went reasonably well, gave out half of the CD's. Participation wasn't
> great, auditorium was only half full (~45). My talk was well received,
> but I didn't sense a lot of movement from the 'suits' portion of the
> crowd. What, I have to learn to do it myself? I can't just reboot and
> solve all my problems? <raspberry> John Gallant (Sr. Editor of NWW) was
> definitely interested, he asked for an eval copy.
It takes serious finesse to sell Unix, no doubt about it. You're
going up against some major FUD spread by very well-paid advertising
agencies and Unix's own weaknesses where it comes to application
support and configuration framework. Ah well, as Nietzsche said, what
does not kill us only makes us stronger. :-)
> Out on the floor, the main comment I got was that we need to find a way
> to generate hard numbers. Our first target need not be W-NT, but if we
> can show comparable numbers of servers or seats to an HP or Sun or AIX,
> we will be on their radar screens for serious products like Netective
This will always be a finger-in-the-wind task at best given that we
offer free downloads. :-(
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 07:53:44 1998
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Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:52:25 +0200 (CEST)
From: Remy NONNENMACHER <remy@synx.com>
Reply-To: remy@synx.com
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
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On 8 May, Don Wilde wrote:
> .....
> well aware that we exist and that our platform works. That is not the
> problem. Numbers to convince beancounters, that IS the problem.
>
Well, there is an easy but disgusting way to do this:
When M$ said: "we got a 100% growing in the DBMS market over the year,
so we are the leader", this mean they went from 2 to 4% of this market.
We can probably found a niche were FreeBSD can show impressive
growing rate....
(Okay, shame on me for suggesting playing with 'divide by zero').
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 08:43:09 1998
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From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
In-Reply-To: <19980508141116.D12200@freebie.lemis.com>
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On Fri, 8 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment,
>Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to
>change.
Would this make Mr. Lehey the only author (beside Tim O'Reilly) to have
more than one O'Reilly title?
Count 'em, TWO O'Reilly books by Greg Lehey and he is in the FreeBSD camp.
Woo Hoo! We can't get better advocacy than that.
I will buy my copy as soon as it hits the shelves.
(OBTW, I bought my copy of the WC book too. It is at a friend's house now.
He is undergoing the slow process of assimilation into the free software
realm and away from Rich Uncle Bill from Redmond. Actually, it is more
like an exorcism, but without the head twisting and vomiting.:))
Congrats Greg!
Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at.
Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 08:46:06 1998
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Subject: Re: The importance of InfoWorld
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 07:01:25 PDT."
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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It started as a slug-fest due to the insect-like reaction of linux
zealots with repect to anything which critiques the GPL.
What I and others are trying to do is attack the "wild crazed linux
fanatics" and try to draw them to a more sane level by presenting
both linux and freebsd as viable OS alternatives and yes both
linux and freebsd enthusiasts are presenting a more balance picture.
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 09:14:58 1998
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To: dwilde1@ibm.net
cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 07:21:55 PDT."
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Something to sell suits is the ease of maintenance of FreeBSD compared
to Solaris or Win-NT. Large organizations can afford to hire systems
programmers . Typically, in the commercial unix world and win xx world
one file bugs and against the OS and then has to wait for bug fixes however
the OS vendor decides to fix the bugs based upon its internal metrics
and sense of commercial viability.
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 11:43:55 1998
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Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:42:23 -0700
From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> > It went reasonably well, gave out half of the CD's. Participation wasn't
> > great, auditorium was only half full (~45). My talk was well received,
> > but I didn't sense a lot of movement from the 'suits' portion of the
> > crowd. What, I have to learn to do it myself? I can't just reboot and
> > solve all my problems? <raspberry> John Gallant (Sr. Editor of NWW) was
> > definitely interested, he asked for an eval copy.
>
> It takes serious finesse to sell Unix, no doubt about it. You're
> going up against some major FUD spread by very well-paid advertising
> agencies and Unix's own weaknesses where it comes to application
> support and configuration framework. Ah well, as Nietzsche said, what
> does not kill us only makes us stronger. :-)
>
Finesse and perseverence... and easier installs. I'm looking at your
sysinstall source files, wading through them. The Test will be what I
can do with it... ;)
> > Out on the floor, the main comment I got was that we need to find a way
> > to generate hard numbers. Our first target need not be W-NT, but if we
> > can show comparable numbers of servers or seats to an HP or Sun or AIX,
> > we will be on their radar screens for serious products like Netective
>
> This will always be a finger-in-the-wind task at best given that we
> offer free downloads. :-(
Can you sift the logs to determine anon ID? At least with that we can
get a number with 'upgrade' downloads subtracted. It doesn't help with
multiple-machine sites, though. I'm going to go back and revisit my
earlier idea of a 'chain letter' posting. Since it's in everybody's
interest, we should get a decent response.
--> Don
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 11:59:47 1998
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From: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
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To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
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This is just getting depressing :)
http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html
Chris
--
"I don't do favors, I accumulate debts"
===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security
===================================| http://open-systems.net
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 13:19:23 1998
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Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:12:09 +0000
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Don Wilde wrote:
>
> Out on the floor, the main comment I got was that we need to find a way
> to generate hard numbers. Our first target need not be W-NT, but if we
> can show comparable numbers of servers or seats to an HP or Sun or AIX,
> we will be on their radar screens for serious products like Netective
> and Oracle and such, things we need. These people don't care how much
> your hardware or OS costs, only that we are a viable potential customer
> for them. We are, we just need to convince them of that. They are also
> well aware that we exist and that our platform works. That is not the
> problem. Numbers to convince beancounters, that IS the problem.
To add an upside to this thread, I know of several important products
from other parts of Unix-land that are being ported to the BSDs. We are
involved in a few of them, and I will let you guys know as each product
ships.
Some that are on the way:
Veritas filesystem (currently a highly Sun-targeted product)
Firstwatch high available clustering and failover (again, normally Sun)
Some nice GUI tools for handling clusters (this is a running theme
for me because of what we do with our FreeBSD servers), which are easy
to port because they were written in Java.
Some numbers to add to the "how big is the market" spreadsheet (even if
we are only a drop in the bucket):
We currently have ~25 FreeBSD servers in our core NOCs in two cities,
and are deploying ~50 more by Q3 of '99 in four more NOCs. Our
enterprise
also has ~75 FreeBSD servers colocated at client facilities to handle
firewall/gateway/departmental e-mail services. We do millions a year in
revenue, and we have scores of F1000 companies running on FreeBSD RIGHT
NOW. The shit works. Highest uptimes are ~400 days. We can afford
whatever
we want, and we choose FreeBSD because it is the best OS we have ever
seen
(commercial or otherwise). The only servers we use that aren't FreeBSD
are
Sun Enterprise servers for Oracle, so: Make 'em port Oracle!
-jack
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 13:38:34 1998
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Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:37:18 -0500
From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To: Jack Rusher <jar@rci.net>
Cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
References: <35531503.6A81283D@ibm.net> <35532ED9.C0D076CD@rci.net>
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On May 05, 1998 at 04:12:09PM +0000, Jack Rusher wrote:
> (commercial or otherwise). The only servers we use that aren't FreeBSD
> are Sun Enterprise servers for Oracle, so: Make 'em port Oracle!
NC (a subsidary of Oracle) does have native FreeBSD Oracle7 binaries.
I believe they are shipped as part of their NCOS (rebadged FreeBSD). (?)
Now, everyone call NC/Oracle and pester them to make this an official
product. Also, Oracle Week starts next week in Orlando, FL, so if
anyone here is going, make sure to make inquires there, as well.
--
Jonathan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:10:56 1998
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Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:10:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
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No this is not depressing at all IMHO. We should all be
happy. As more and more people follow Netscape we will have more and more
free source code. Isn't it our goal after all? And with free source code
guess what??? We can compile FreeBSD apps. Incredible, isn't it. So what
if Linux goes first. They have bigger user base currently. We go second..
or third.. as long as Microsoft and proprietary standards go last we all
win.
I am going to try to call Corel and thank them for doing what
Netscape did. I will also mention FreeBSD. I suggest we all do.. now I
just have to dig up a number somewhere off the web.
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux == DOS of the Unix world.
On Fri, 8 May 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote:
>
>This is just getting depressing :)
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html
>
>Chris
>
>--
>"I don't do favors, I accumulate debts"
>
>===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
> FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
>-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
> FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
> http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security
>===================================| http://open-systems.net
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:22:48 1998
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cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980508140712.26507C-100000@shell6.ba.best.com>
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On Fri, 8 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote:
>
> No this is not depressing at all IMHO. We should all be
> happy. As more and more people follow Netscape we will have more and more
> free source code. Isn't it our goal after all? And with free source code
> guess what??? We can compile FreeBSD apps. Incredible, isn't it. So what
> if Linux goes first. They have bigger user base currently. We go second..
> or third.. as long as Microsoft and proprietary standards go last we all
> win.
> I am going to try to call Corel and thank them for doing what
> Netscape did. I will also mention FreeBSD. I suggest we all do.. now I
> just have to dig up a number somewhere off the web.
I already sent them a happy-gram email linux@corelcomputer.com
I agree it's good and MS looses I just wish it would have been FreeBSD :)
Because in this case user base is not important since its the basis for a
product. Windows users wont care what is powering this NC. So the
udnerlying userbase of the software powering this NC is moot. I just wish
they would ahve used FreeBSD. But it's still a good move for free software
I already mailed them personally and applauded their move, in a non biased
way. Hmm I wonder if im capable of doing that. heh
Chris
--
"I don't do favors, I accumulate debts"
===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
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===================================| http://open-systems.net
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:30:27 1998
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Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:29:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@nvl.virginia.edu>
Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@virginia.edu>
To: Alex <garbanzo@hooked.net>
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS..
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On Thu, 7 May 1998, Alex wrote:
> http://www.ci.infobeads.com/INSIDER/PAGES/TOPICS/INTERNET/ISP_HW_0505/Default.asp
>
> Hrm, and FreeBSD was nowhere to be found. Interesting.
Very unbelievable that FreeBSD doesn't even come up with 5.7% like
HP does. I smell a rat, or at least poor statistical practice.
Does it say anywhere that they allowed vendors to "opt in" to the
survey? If so, then it is worthless.
I cannot check myself because just about everyt link on the site
returns a page claiming that the HP-UX version of Netscape 4.04 is not a
supported client. This puts the site very low on my list of credible
sources of information.
Adrian
--
adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and
System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer,
Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it.....
http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:37:51 1998
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From: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
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To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Anyone read THIS one?
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http://www.news.com/SpecialFeatures/0,5,18652,00.html
The same is true with two other major
freeware projects, the Apache Web server
and the FreeBSD operating system, both
Unix-based. FreeBSD is Linux's younger
cousin and counts an estimated 500,000
users, according to David Greenman,
principal architect on the core FreeBSD
team.
Uhh YOUNGER cousin? BSD's heritage is FAR older than linux itself by some
15+ years. And we are not related. We have a BSD family. Linux doesn't :)
Where did this guy get this information. And I thought david never gave
out figures?
Chris
--
"I don't do favors, I accumulate debts"
===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security
===================================| http://open-systems.net
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:39:07 1998
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Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:38:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@nvl.virginia.edu>
Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@virginia.edu>
To: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
cc: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980508083150.431B-100000@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu>
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On Fri, 8 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote:
> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> >Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment,
> >Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to
> >change.
[...snip...]
> I will buy my copy as soon as it hits the shelves.
I will definitely be doing the same.
> (OBTW, I bought my copy of the WC book too. It is at a friend's house now.
I bought three just last week. ;-) I give them out when I set up
FreeBSD boxes for consulting customers. I am so glad the new edition is
as big and thurough as it is. Keep up the good work! My only hope on the
new book is that there is less manpage filler.
Adrian
--
adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and
System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer,
Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it.....
http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 16:45:40 1998
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 01:44:39 +0200 (CEST)
From: Remy NONNENMACHER <remy@synx.com>
Reply-To: remy@synx.com
Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
To: opsys@mail.webspan.net
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On 8 May, Open Systems Networking wrote:
>
> This is just getting depressing :)
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html
>
> Chris
Why being depressed ? It's only the start of the movement for pushing
M$ off the road before Y2K.
think:
- 33% of M$ apps will survive 1 Jan 2000.
- As an M$ user you need to upgrade
- You know that you will have (as usual) a lot of problems doing that
- problems for problems, let's see what's new...
- Ho!! free Wordperfect, Free Applix, Free everything.... Under what ?
ho!!! the shining Linux !! the one everybody talks about..
Well that's only the beginning. Wait for mid-99. They will all give you
money with software :)
Remember, Linux, as replacement for Win9x, is the best door-opener for
FreeBSD as NT replacement. So don't be too depressed...
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:03:57 1998
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From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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To: Jack Rusher <jar@rci.net>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
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On Fri, 8 May 1998, Jack Rusher wrote:
>Some numbers to add to the "how big is the market" spreadsheet (even if
>we are only a drop in the bucket):
Is your organization aware of the FreeBSD gallery on the website? I think
you could help support FreeBSD by filling out the form and getting your
organization some exposure too! :)
Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at.
Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:05:59 1998
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From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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To: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
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On Fri, 8 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote:
>multiple-machine sites, though. I'm going to go back and revisit my
>earlier idea of a 'chain letter' posting. Since it's in everybody's
By this do you mean SPAM?
Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at.
Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:07:37 1998
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To: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@virginia.edu>,
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Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980508083150.431B-100000@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu> <Pine.HPP.3.96.980508173612.10898G-100000@huron.nvl.virginia.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980508173612.10898G-100000@huron.nvl.virginia.edu>; from Adrian Filipi-Martin on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 05:38:21PM -0400
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On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 17:38:21 -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote:
> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>>
>>> Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment,
>>> Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to
>>> change.
>
> [...snip...]
>
>> I will buy my copy as soon as it hits the shelves.
>
> I will definitely be doing the same.
>
>> (OBTW, I bought my copy of the WC book too. It is at a friend's house now.
>
> I bought three just last week. ;-) I give them out when I set up
> FreeBSD boxes for consulting customers. I am so glad the new edition is
> as big and thurough as it is. Keep up the good work! My only hope on the
> new book is that there is less manpage filler.
Nice to hear you like it. You'll be pleased to know that the man
pages will probably go altogether, but that will make the book
thinner, of course. Andy has this thing about books with more than
600 pages. You'll note that his own is only 150 pages.
Greg
--
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Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS..
To: adrian@virginia.edu
cc: adrian@nvl.virginia.edu, garbanzo@hooked.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980508172555.10898F-100000@huron.nvl.virginia.edu>
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On 8 May, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote:
> On Thu, 7 May 1998, Alex wrote:
>
>> http://www.ci.infobeads.com/INSIDER/PAGES/TOPICS/INTERNET/ISP_HW_0505/Default.asp
>>
>> Hrm, and FreeBSD was nowhere to be found. Interesting.
>
> Very unbelievable that FreeBSD doesn't even come up with 5.7% like
> HP does. I smell a rat, or at least poor statistical practice.
>
> Does it say anywhere that they allowed vendors to "opt in" to the
> survey? If so, then it is worthless.
>
Countless incoherencies ;
HP machines: 3%, HP-UX: 5.7% !!
Since when does HP-UX runs somewhere else than under HP computers ?
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:34:10 1998
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Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:33:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
To: Remy NONNENMACHER <remy@synx.com>
cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
In-Reply-To: <9805090135.aa12916@s3.synx.com>
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On Sat, 9 May 1998, Remy NONNENMACHER wrote:
> Remember, Linux, as replacement for Win9x, is the best door-opener for
> FreeBSD as NT replacement. So don't be too depressed...
Well, I'm not sure how well that words out, really.
Two cases:
1) Linux works, so why change to that FreeBSD thing that all these Linux
people (recall their attitude) hate, since those Linux people are the gods
who made this system we all love.
2) Linux doesn't work, so why even try that FreeBSD thing, since it's just
that thing that's 'kinda like Linux', and is 'Linux's younger cousin'.
Not saying we won't get converts, but that's the way the masses are going
to go.
We can't just be 'there with Linux', we have to be there with Linux and
NOT BE Linux in the monds of the people. We're FreeBSD, we're not that
other thing that's like Linux.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
| FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be |
* "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is *
| that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."|
* fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller *
| http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:55:55 1998
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To: dwilde1@ibm.net
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 11:42:23 PDT."
<3553520F.F7AA3C7B@ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:54:35 -0700
Message-ID: <16484.894675275@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Can you sift the logs to determine anon ID? At least with that we can
> get a number with 'upgrade' downloads subtracted. It doesn't help with
Doesn't really help since:
1. We're only getting stats from ftp.cdrom.com and none of the mirrors.
2. We can't tell mirrors from ordinary users, and sometimes the mirrors
have been known to go nuts and remirror freebsd over and over again,
thus totally screwing up the download stats.
3. It's hard to tell the "I installed a full dist" from the "I just grabbed
a file I was missing" folks without somehow counting up all the files
they downloaded and associating them as one download.
I don't think that FTP download stats are particularly valuable for this
reason - they're too inaccurate.
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 18:01:34 1998
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To: Jack Rusher <jar@rci.net>
cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 16:12:09 -0000."
<35532ED9.C0D076CD@rci.net>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:59:53 -0700
Message-ID: <16570.894675593@time.cdrom.com>
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> Veritas filesystem (currently a highly Sun-targeted product)
> Firstwatch high available clustering and failover (again, normally Sun)
> Some nice GUI tools for handling clusters (this is a running theme
> for me because of what we do with our FreeBSD servers), which are easy
> to port because they were written in Java.
This all sounds great! Please keep us posted.
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 18:05:31 1998
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To: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 14:59:24 EDT."
<Pine.BSF.3.95.980508145819.7908A-100000@orion.webspan.net>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:04:00 -0700
Message-ID: <16619.894675840@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> This is just getting depressing :)
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html
Why? Sounds good to me! We can then run all this stuff!
People have to stop thinking of additional Linux market penetration as
such a bad thing - it's "paving the road" for us in a number of areas
where we'd just plain and simply NOT be able to go otherwise. Do you
think Coral would have done this strictly for us, for example? Not a
chance in hell - we're not big enough to register on those sorts of
radar screens yet and the fact that Linux is means that we should be
happy whenever it steamrollers yet another vendor into the free software
camp. :-)
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 18:16:27 1998
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:45:54 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980508083150.431B-100000@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu>; from Jason C. Wells on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 08:41:02AM +0000
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On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 8:41:02 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote:
> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>> Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment,
>> Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to
>> change.
>
> Would this make Mr. Lehey the only author (beside Tim O'Reilly) to have
> more than one O'Reilly title?
Definitely not. A brief scan of my bookshelf reveals:
Andy Oram (yes, my editor)
Steve Oualline
Mike Loukides
Steven Feuerstein
Dave Ensor
Ian Stevenson
Bill Rosenblat
Dale Dougherty
I'm sure there are many more, and a number of three-book authors as
well.
> Congrats Greg!
Thanks
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 18:21:43 1998
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@virginia.edu>,
"Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 09:35:58 +0930."
<19980509093558.Q12200@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:20:04 -0700
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> Nice to hear you like it. You'll be pleased to know that the man
> pages will probably go altogether, but that will make the book
Great, now can we get the same thing to happen for the WC version?
Everyone hates the man pages! ;-)
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 19:07:38 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@virginia.edu>,
"Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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In-Reply-To: <16742.894676804@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 06:20:04PM -0700
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On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 18:20:04 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> Nice to hear you like it. You'll be pleased to know that the man
>> pages will probably go altogether, but that will make the book
>
> Great, now can we get the same thing to happen for the WC version?
> Everyone hates the man pages! ;-)
Do they? This is the first complaint I've heard. But maybe they'll
let you into to storeroom to tear them out.
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 19:44:14 1998
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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"Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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On Sat, 9 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > Great, now can we get the same thing to happen for the WC version?
> > Everyone hates the man pages! ;-)
>
> Do they? This is the first complaint I've heard. But maybe they'll
> let you into to storeroom to tear them out.
If OReilly is going to kill the man pages (and it certainly appears that
they are going to do so), I would buy another book that HAD the man pages.
I PREFER -to the point of chemical dependency- written documentation.
Of course my REAL plan is to simply by the version that is available NOW,
and then the OReilly release when it comes available.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:19:42 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
Cc: Dan Benjamin <dpb@yeti.hqs.crc.com>, FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.ORG>,
freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: BSD Week (was: Demo CDs (was: blessing))
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.980504015550.9309B-100000@orion.webspan.net>; from Chris Watson on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:01:07AM -0400
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On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 2:01:07 -0400, Chris Watson wrote:
>
>> BSD Week? What's that?
>
> Heh I knew someone would catch that :)
> That i believe is dan's idea. A BSD magazine web based of course.
> To give us a place to spill articles and whatnot like linuxjournal, or
> linuxgazette. I started writing an article for it myself a few weeks ago
> when dan first mentioned it. Part of that PR hooha I wanted to see happen.
> This is a really good example of what I was talking about.
> I think it will be great if it actually works and people write for it.
> I'm just glad it has started.
> But I'll let dan dish info on BSD week :)
OK, Dan, go for it
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:38:44 1998
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From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> > This is just getting depressing :)
> >
> > http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html
>
> Why? Sounds good to me! We can then run all this stuff!
>
> People have to stop thinking of additional Linux market penetration as
> such a bad thing - it's "paving the road" for us in a number of areas
> where we'd just plain and simply NOT be able to go otherwise. Do you
I agree with that thought, but I see trouble in the longer term. What
this is doing is shifting the battlefield, and faster than we would have
thought. People will see that it works. NCI will bring out their version
with Free/OpenBSD, and Sun will finally open-source the Java OS The new
battleground will be hardware which runs free software. The old
(software) dinosaurs can't compete in this battleground. M$ will die,
because they can't expose the fact that the Emperor has no d*** under
his fancy clothes. Hardware architectures will become the next weapons,
and (I hate to say it) unless Intel or Oracle really move quickly to
dominate this battle, Linux will have the advantage because it runs on
all, from StrongARM to P-II. The user wants universality, not ultimate
performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we
should position ourselves.
--> Don
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Not at all. We post the original questionnaire on FreeBSD-questions, and
ask that everybody forward it to everybody else that they know uses
FreeBSD. Might also put in a section for those who did use it and
dropped it. I'm sure the Linux ilk will mail bomb us if we do that but
we might get some useful data as to why the drops. The questionnaire
will be simple enough, but it will give us a decent amount of data.
We set up an address to return it to -- both electronic and postal --
and have a CGI on the electronic address to process the responses. It
would also be worthwhile to improve the 'registration' screen on the
next batch of CD's so it gives convincing arguments rather than
pleading, and offers several ways to register.
Since it's in everybody's interest to show numbers, I think we'll get a
decent response.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:39:02 1998
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<doesn't really help, mirrors>
Good point. All right, how about a short directory-entry message
pointing them to the questionnaire I'm talking about? This will be
mirrored too, although I'm not sure what it will look like in Russian or
Japanese. :-)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:39:07 1998
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Hey, Jack, can you do that up as an article for BSDWEEK or FreeBSD
Newsletter? (Just blue-pencil "The shit works!" ;) ) Not the products,
though that's great news, but your usage. Better yet, package it for
Network World and ship it off to John Gallant as a case study.
--> Don
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A book of just man pages would be nice. I agree that they add clumsiness
to the present edition.
Actually, I'd rather see a print format script that would set them up
for looseleaf usage. I'm sure somebody will now tell me "it's in there!"
That way, when I do a project, I could just dump pertinent pages
(whether core or add-on packages) and insert them behind my project
docs.
--> Don
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 21:10:22 1998
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On Fri, May 08, 1998 at 10:43:53PM -0400, Andrew Short wrote:
> If OReilly is going to kill the man pages (and it certainly appears that
> they are going to do so), I would buy another book that HAD the man pages.
> I PREFER -to the point of chemical dependency- written documentation.
*scratches chin*
I need a shave ...
oh .. man lpr ;)
--
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From: Phillip Salzman <advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org>
To: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
cc: Andrew Short <Ashort@concentric.net>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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On Fri, 8 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote:
> A book of just man pages would be nice. I agree that they add clumsiness
> to the present edition.
>
They already have a book of manpages, "The Complete FreeBSD."
Its almost all manpages, adding a section on how to install
and some (a lot) things about installing X11.
Just get it at WC. Although, ORA makes good books.. i'm probally
going to buy it.
Phillip Salzman
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Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 20:46:39 -0700, Don Wilde wrote:
> A book of just man pages would be nice. I agree that they add clumsiness
> to the present edition.
>
> Actually, I'd rather see a print format script that would set them up
> for looseleaf usage. I'm sure somebody will now tell me "it's in there!"
> That way, when I do a project, I could just dump pertinent pages
> (whether core or add-on packages) and insert them behind my project
> docs.
zcat $1 | pic | tbl | eqn | groff -mandoc >$1.ps
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 21:43:08 1998
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On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 23:11:54 -0500, Phillip Salzman wrote:
> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote:
>
>> A book of just man pages would be nice. I agree that they add clumsiness
>> to the present edition.
>>
>
> They already have a book of manpages, "The Complete FreeBSD."
>
> Its almost all manpages, adding a section on how to install
> and some (a lot) things about installing X11.
>
> Just get it at WC. Although, ORA makes good books.. i'm probally
> going to buy it.
This is where we came in. Jordan said the book had too many man
pages.
Greg
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 11:37:22 +0930."
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> Do they? This is the first complaint I've heard. But maybe they'll
> let you into to storeroom to tear them out.
Well, I don't want to air too much of our dirty laundry in the
-advocacy list, but let's just say that when Jack, our dear departed
V.P. of marketing, first got it in his head to add all those man pages
to the first edition (and, as the story goes, without even informing
yourself first) it was not greeted by general applause and cries of
"man pages! bring us more printed man pages!" by the audience.
I also don't take all the Walnut Creek tech support calls personally
(in fact, I take them only when I absolutely can't avoid it :), but
it's been my general impression from talking to those who do that
customer sentiment leans less toward seeing printed man pages and more
toward seeing the same space occupied by tutorials on setting up
utilities like apache and natd or setting up mailing lists and playing
with virtual mailertables in sendmail.
- Jordan
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Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 19:50:27 PDT."
<3553C473.ECA1CD5E@ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:04:18 -0700
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> performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we
> should position ourselves.
Ah, but that's the beauty of free software - you're spared from
spending too much time in the contemplation of such details by the
fact that _development_, around which everything revolves, will
continue at its own holistic pace no matter grand plans you might
dream up about running on 56 different architectures. :-)
Jordan "who's seen the SPARC and ALPHA ports turn into 5 year plans and
isn't going to hold his breath on things like StrongARM" Hubbard. :-)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 22:13:17 1998
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To: dwilde1@ibm.net
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 20:35:57 PDT."
<3553CF1D.6A6ACCB8@ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:12:14 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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And in what fashion would this questionaire attract broader attention
than the registration form we're already employing? I'm not saying
it's not possible to attract broader attention, I'm simply trying to
make the important point that the act of putting together a
questionaire is not in and of itself enough - it has to somehow be
sexy and alluring enough for the users to respond to it in significant
numbers.
I've seen any number of FreeBSD user polls get utterly ignored by the
user base and even the registration form, which is about as
in-your-face as it's possible to get in the installation and still not
piss people off, has attracted just over 30K registrants in the year
it's been in operation. The registration data thus collected is also
valuable, don't get me wrong, but as these things generally go, 30K is
simply puny. When you can demonstrate 200K or more verified user
registrations in some special interest group, then the smaller
sections of the market begin to take notice of it.
- Jordan
> <doesn't really help, mirrors>
> Good point. All right, how about a short directory-entry message
> pointing them to the questionnaire I'm talking about? This will be
> mirrored too, although I'm not sure what it will look like in Russian or
> Japanese. :-)
>
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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Cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@virginia.edu>,
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Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 21:57:19 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> Do they? This is the first complaint I've heard. But maybe they'll
>> let you into to storeroom to tear them out.
>
> Well, I don't want to air too much of our dirty laundry in the
> -advocacy list,
Good idea, but I suppose we should finish off this discussion.
> but let's just say that when Jack, our dear departed V.P. of
> marketing, first got it in his head to add all those man pages to
> the first edition (and, as the story goes, without even informing
> yourself first) it was not greeted by general applause and cries of
> "man pages! bring us more printed man pages!" by the audience.
Well, to be fair to Jack, he *did* inform me first. I suppose it was
really my idea. Here's a bit of the background, most of which you
know, but which others may not.
In October 1995, Jack Velte, Greg Long and a few other people from WC
were doing the Frankfurt Book Fair and came to visit me--I lived about
50 miles from Frankfurt at the time. Jack was bemoaning the fact that
FreeBSD wasn't selling because they didn't have a good book on
installing it. It didn't have to be much--50 pages or so, he said. I
had just submitted the final draft of "Porting UNIX Software"
(O'Reilly), and so I was pretty much in training, so I said, "sure,
I'll write your 50 pages for you". Went downstairs, and before they
left that evening they had a draft of 12 pages or so to think about.
Well, they liked it, but the way things go, people, particulary Jack,
kept changing their minds, so the book was a race to get something
finished before Jack changed his mind about what something was. What
finally appeared was "Installing and Running FreeBSD", which I
submitted in February 1996--about 330 pages, including 50 pages of
essential man pages needed to help you if the system wouldn't come up.
It had barely started shipping, in March 1996, when Jack called me.
The discussion went something like this:
J: Greg, that book of yours, it's not thick enough, we need something
at least as big as all those Linux books out there.
G: How big's that?
J: Oh, I don't know, about 1500 pages.
G: And when do you want it by?
J: Man, we're in a hurry. Can you do it by next month?
G: No.
J: Why not?
At this point he had also been intending to publish *all* the FreeBSD
man pages (about 5000 odd pages, in case you're interested). After a
while, I suggested that if he wanted bulk, the obvious choice would be
to include more man pages into the book. We finally agreed on the
number of pages, and I added some corrections and additions to the
book, and also had to accept this damned silly narrow page format
which nearly drove me crazy, and submitted the book for publication in
early May. For some reason, nothing happened, and I resubmitted in
August, when it did get published.
> I also don't take all the Walnut Creek tech support calls personally
> (in fact, I take them only when I absolutely can't avoid it :), but
> it's been my general impression from talking to those who do that
> customer sentiment leans less toward seeing printed man pages and more
> toward seeing the same space occupied by tutorials on setting up
> utilities like apache and natd or setting up mailing lists and playing
> with virtual mailertables in sendmail.
No doubt. There's not much point in having man pages for stuff that
isn't covered in the text. Surprisingly, there's very little in the
man pages which doens't have at least on reference from the text.
Anyway, the man pages will go away for the O'Reilly version, and I've
accepted it in much the same spirit as I accepted their arrival.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 22:22:25 1998
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Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 14:43:22 +0930."
<19980509144322.S12200@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:21:09 -0700
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> No doubt. There's not much point in having man pages for stuff that
> isn't covered in the text. Surprisingly, there's very little in the
So, uh, that means you'll be replacing the man pages by the
aformentioned tutorials for the next edition of the Walnut Creek
publication too?
- Jordan "pushin' mah luck" Hubbard
:-)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 04:18:17 1998
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 06:16:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Phillip Salzman <advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation
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>
> I don't think that FTP download stats are particularly valuable for this
> reason - they're too inaccurate.
What about the 'Register FreeBSD' thing? I understand some
people may not of registered, and some registered more than
once.
Phillip Salzman
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 04:57:47 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 08:03:27 -0400
From: "Kriston J. Rehberg" <kriston@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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Yeah, those hundreds and hundreds of man pages are completely and
utterly useless. I dare say they were included in the "Complete
FreeBSD" book for the sole purpose of making the book look larger and
more impressive than it actually was.
Kris
Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> > Nice to hear you like it. You'll be pleased to know that the man
> > pages will probably go altogether, but that will make the book
>
> Great, now can we get the same thing to happen for the WC version?
> Everyone hates the man pages! ;-)
>
> - Jordan
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
--
Kriston J. Rehberg
http://kriston.net/
endeavor to persevere
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 05:40:06 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 14:22:02 +0200
From: Sune Stjerneby <stjerneby@usa.net>
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Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
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Don Wilde wrote:
> his fancy clothes. Hardware architectures will become the next weapons,
> and (I hate to say it) unless Intel or Oracle really move quickly to
> dominate this battle, Linux will have the advantage because it runs on
> all, from StrongARM to P-II. The user wants universality, not ultimate
> performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we
> should position ourselves.
In this context, forget not the road of The NetBSD Project (and later
OpenBSD), who IMO has pioneered the idea of a highly arch-independent OS
and kernel, with ~15-20 (combined) platforms supported by now, however
old and obscure, or new.
NetBSD happened several years before Linux began covering anything but
x86, and if arch-support is to be the next battleground, it would be an
excellent example for FreeBSD to follow.
I know of individuals with non-x86 hardware, who turn to something like
SPARClinux or Linux/m68k, simply because they lack awareness of
{Net,Open}BSD, or find it slightly too obscure.
(admittetly, compared to FreeBSD, NetBSD isn't an out-of-the-box
product, but it's not rocket science)
Bringing other architechtures FreeBSD would definitively help opening
some eyes.
--
//bwulf - Sune Stjerneby <stjerneby@usa.net>
-- "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur."
-- "4.4BSD UNIX - A Real Operating System for Real Users."
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 06:19:11 1998
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Don Wilde wrote:
> his fancy clothes. Hardware architectures will become the next weapons,
> and (I hate to say it) unless Intel or Oracle really move quickly to
> dominate this battle, Linux will have the advantage because it runs on
> all, from StrongARM to P-II. The user wants universality, not ultimate
> performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we
> should position ourselves.
In this context, forget not the road of The NetBSD Project (and later
OpenBSD), who IMO has pioneered the idea of a highly arch-independent OS
and kernel, with ~15-20 (combined) platforms supported by now, however
old and obscure, or new.
NetBSD happened several years before Linux began covering anything but
x86, and if arch-support is to be the next battleground, it would be an
excellent example for FreeBSD to follow.
I know of individuals with non-x86 hardware, who turn to something like
SPARClinux or Linux/m68k, simply because they lack awareness of
{Net,Open}BSD, or find it slightly too obscure.
(admittetly, compared to FreeBSD, NetBSD isn't an out-of-the-box
product, but it's not rocket science)
Bringing other architechtures FreeBSD would definitively help opening
some eyes.
--
//bwulf - Sune Stjerneby <stjerneby@usa.net>
-- "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur."
-- "4.4BSD UNIX - A Real Operating System for Real Users."
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On 8 May, Don Wilde wrote:
> Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>>
>> > This is just getting depressing :)
>> >
>> > http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html
>>
>> Why? Sounds good to me! We can then run all this stuff!
>>
>> People have to stop thinking of additional Linux market penetration as
>> such a bad thing - it's "paving the road" for us in a number of areas
>> where we'd just plain and simply NOT be able to go otherwise. Do you
>
> I agree with that thought, but I see trouble in the longer term. What
> this is doing is shifting the battlefield, and faster than we would have
> thought. People will see that it works. NCI will bring out their version
> with Free/OpenBSD, and Sun will finally open-source the Java OS The new
> battleground will be hardware which runs free software. The old
> (software) dinosaurs can't compete in this battleground. M$ will die,
> because they can't expose the fact that the Emperor has no d*** under
> his fancy clothes. Hardware architectures will become the next weapons,
> and (I hate to say it) unless Intel or Oracle really move quickly to
> dominate this battle, Linux will have the advantage because it runs on
> all, from StrongARM to P-II. The user wants universality, not ultimate
> performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we
> should position ourselves.
>
I'm not really sure users want universality. They would not stick so
massively with wintel. FreeBSD can lead the server group by focusing
effort on SMP, high-end processors (PII,ALPHA,MERCED no more, no less),
GUI for administration, new filesystems types, etc... and let linux
lead the workstation group where brightness, PR, versatility is needed
but so energy-consuming.
Linux success will help us in two ways: getting users out of the M$
integrism and having them adopt the idea that free software *IS* better
than proprietary. For the moment, the war is M$ vs Linux. Let's keep
away from shrapnels and let's be prepared to grap the NT portion of the
future defunct.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 10:24:29 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Advocay: Pro Choice Tax!
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Was just thinking about the following model:
Allow PC computer manufacturers to sell alternative OS distributions such
as FreeBSD required them to provide functional equivalent distributions
for instance bundle in a version of an office suite such as StarOffice,
Corel Office and have the PC manufacturers pay the software vendors a
sum similar to what they are paying microsoft.
Targetted PC manufacturers are IBM, HP, and Compaq given that they are
familiar with Unix.
Perhaps we should focus on HP ( I work for HP as a consultant) and as a
whole they are anti-monopolistic which is strange given their recent
alliance with microsoft.
It is very clear that the PC manufacturers completely ignore Ralph Nader's
request to provide alternative OS distributions;nevertheless , I noticed
that PC manufacturers and microsoft are concerned with the possibility of
Win 98 being delayed by pressure from the DOJ. Hence, this is the right
time to petition PC manufacturers to offer FreeBSD distributions via
a two prong strategy encourage the DOJ to block win 98 and ask the PC
manufacturers to provide alternative OS distributions .
What we need is a nice letter drafted by someone like Brett requesting
the DOJ to block Win 98 until microsoft allows its pc manufacturers to
provide an alternative OS without penalty . Second a letter to PC manufacturers
asking them to provide alternative OS distributions and perhaps add in the
letter a copy of the letter to the DOJ . At this stage we seek alternative
OS distributions from the manufacturers.
We need also a list of attorney generals involved in the anti-trust law suit
if not a list of all attorney generals with fax , phone , address, or e-mail.
The contact info for DOJ dept conducting the anti-trust lawsuit against
microsoft.
After the first few rounds of revisions from this email and once we have
secured the letter from Brett I suggest we plaster this request all over
the Net.
*We* do not have weeks to act rather just a few precious and important
days. The DOJ and US State Attorneys plan to file action by May 15 if we act
by Monday we still have a chance of making impact.
Happy Protest!!
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:41:10 1998
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To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: http://www.freebsd.org ??
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:41:02 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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We need a small section up front in www.freebsd.org of cool freebsd sites
like http://www.thinker.org . The idea here is that when visitors
walk away from http://www.freebsd.org they should leave with a sense
that a lot is going on freebsd land. Currently, the web site is
very OS centric however it fails to convey a feeling that freebsd is
actually being used.
Take a look at http:/www.javasoft.com for a sample of what I am thinking
about. Every week or there abouts there is something new and exciting
happening at http://www.javasoft.com .
So who is good web designer and is willing to volunteer some time??
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:01 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:13:15 -0700
From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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Yes, Remy... This is what I was getting at, focusing on server
architecture and high power. We can run Linux apps, and we have guys
like Amancio who will help us run fancy Linux apps for PC's.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:05 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:25:57 -0700
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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I sent an e-mail to the DOJ AntiTrust Division (sorry, don't have the
e-mail address but it's posted on the DOJ site. I received a personally
signed letter back from John F. Greaney, the Chief of the "Computers and
Finance" section.
Mr. John F. Greaney, Chief
Computers and Finance Division
U.S. Department of Justice Antitrust Division
Bicentennial Building
600 E Street, NW
Washington, DC 20530
I would suggest that the "filing" dates for action have nothing to do
with the "remedy" portion, and it's time to start writing _hard_copy_
letters to this gentleman and all of our Senators and Congressmen, as
they will ultimately be the ones to decide the Microsoft case, much as
the tobacco industry "settlement" is being superseded by legislation. M$
will seek to buy influence in Congress after finding out that DOJ can't
be pressured.
Please, no more taxes!
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:07 1998
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From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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I just don't want us to stick head in sand, because we cannot keep cheap
ISA-bus pentiums around forever. Have you gotten Intel's I2O API
released yet? How about firewire drivers?
Let me say here that I want to remain Intel-centric. What I'm saying is
that we need to be aware of the rest of the world's development track so
we don't get left behind.
And yes, I AM trying to stay out of these "discussions" so I can learn
to be a useful developer... ;)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:13 1998
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From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> And in what fashion would this questionaire attract broader attention
> than the registration form we're already employing? I'm not saying
> it's not possible to attract broader attention, I'm simply trying to
> make the important point that the act of putting together a
> questionaire is not in and of itself enough - it has to somehow be
> sexy and alluring enough for the users to respond to it in significant
> numbers.
>
> I've seen any number of FreeBSD user polls get utterly ignored by the
> user base and even the registration form, which is about as
> in-your-face as it's possible to get in the installation and still not
> piss people off, has attracted just over 30K registrants in the year
> it's been in operation. The registration data thus collected is also
> valuable, don't get me wrong, but as these things generally go, 30K is
> simply puny. When you can demonstrate 200K or more verified user
> registrations in some special interest group, then the smaller
> sections of the market begin to take notice of it.
>
My main complaint with the registration is that you can't do it until
_after_ you've connected to the net, and for most newbie non-server
users that means PPP. Jordan, sometimes your problem is that you know
too much and you have experienced too much.
30,000, huh? Take a look at this month's Performance Computing. That's
more than Solaris x86 did in all of 1997...
I'm not saying this is easy, and I'm not saying we'll get everybody. I'm
saying we have to do it! We need to show numbers to be noticed! As far
as sexy, once we all agree on the questions, I'll do a MIME parser to
sift the responses and a Web page you can add to FreeBSD.org to show
what we're getting on a live basis. I will be glad to host it on my
partsnow.com machine and you can link to me. I _do_ know how to write
Perl, so this I am willing to do.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:20 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:44:27 -0700
From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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Subject: chain letter proposal
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To: All FreeBSD Users From: The FreeBSD Project
“A Finger in the Wind”
In order to compete in today’s competitive Operating Systems market, we
need to be able to show large numbers of people using FreeBSD. We’d like
you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward
it to everyone you know who is a FreeBSD user, especially those who are
not connected to the Internet. If you have to, print it and distribute
the hard copy! We will all benefit, since software vendors look at
numbers when they decide what platforms to port to, and magazines write
about systems people use.
To the left of each question is a sequence like this: |00:[ ]. Please
enter a number, like this: |00:[ 12 ] or |00[ +5 ]. Don’t worry about
spaces, we’ll parse that. There are also five fields for alphanumeric
comments. E-mail respondents, please put your answers between the
vertical brackets like this |00:[ stability, power ]. When you’re done,
send the reply to wetfinger@freebsd.org or to Wet Finger, c/o The
FreeBSD Project, address, address address.
Please do not submit multiple entries for the same machines or skew the
results in any way. Get every user you know to fill it out, all over the
world. We’d like honest numbers, and we’d like to hear from all of you.
Thanks!
*********************************************************************
|1:[ ] Do you use FreeBSD for [1] business [2] pleasure or [3] both?
|2:[ ] How many years have you been using FreeBSD?
|3:[ ] How many years have you been using computers?
|4:[ ] What is your skill level in computing [1 low - 10 high]?
|5:[ ] How many computers have you installed FreeBSD on?
|6:[ ] How many operate primarily as network system servers?
|7:[ ] How many operate primarily as webservers?
|8:[ ] How many are used primarily for graphics / media production?
|9:[ ] How many are primarily personal workstations?
|10:[ ] List other purposes your FreeBSD systems serve, separated
by commas. Print users only, use the blank space below.
|11:[ ] Do you recommend FreeBSD to other users [+5 to -5]?
|12:[ ] Why or why not? Top five reasons, separated by commas.
|13:[ ] What would you most like to see improved in FreeBSD?
|14:[ ] What commercial software would you most be willing
to pay for to have it on FreeBSD? [Names or types]
|15:[ ] What freeware project would you be most interested in
participating in for developing new software?
[0] none
[1] Office Suite
[2] Multimedia Content Development Applications
[3] New and Improved Installation routines [sysinstall]
[4] System Administration tools [GUI and non-GUI]
[5] Better Documentation
|16:[ ] If you want to participate in a development project,
please enter your e-mail address here.
Thank you very much! Please visit http://www.FreeBSD.org to see
the growing numbers of fellow users and responses we have received.
There’s lots going on at The FreeBSD Project, and we’d like you to know
about it and participate. We all win!
For those of you who are not familiar with American slang, “A Finger in
the Wind” refers to the practice of wetting your finger and sticking it
up in the air to determine the wind velocity and direction. :-)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:25 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:47:00 -0700
From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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Greg Lehey wrote:
> zcat $1 | pic | tbl | eqn | groff -mandoc >$1.ps
God, what gobbledygook. Thanks, Greg! :)
--> Don
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:33 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:50:05 -0700
From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> customer sentiment leans less toward seeing printed man pages and more
> toward seeing the same space occupied by tutorials on setting up
> utilities like apache and natd or setting up mailing lists and playing
> with virtual mailertables in sendmail.
>
Yup, yup yup, all that -ports related stuff!!! Add Andreas' apsfilter
and ghostscript to the list...
--> Don
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:38 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:53:31 -0700
From: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD)
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And I actually have all three versions. Keep the faith, Greg. You're
doing a great job. :)
--> Don
actually, I'm more interested in the rsynch prgram you were going to
improve Real Soon Now a few months ago :-)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 12:03:49 1998
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Subject: Re: Advocay: Pro Choice Tax!
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 11:25:57 PDT."
<35549FB5.79501B0B@ibm.net>
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Most cool start . We just have to turn up the heat up real quick
before we miss our window of opportunity . I would love to see a
Terry Lambert explanation of the implication of having a Microsoft Tax ,i.e.,
the coercion of having every major vendor being strong-armed to only include
win95 . The reason why I am asking Terry directly is because he also
loves to post so lets see that legendary posting skills of Terry put
to a good humanitarian cause (Terry , there is no limit on the
number of words for your letter so go nuts)
Happy Protest!
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 12:49:42 1998
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:52:57 -0400
To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
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At 2:59 PM -0400 5/8/98, Open Systems Networking wrote:
> This is just getting depressing :)
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html
Given that you have the smiley there, I imagine you're not really all that
depressed about it. And certainly I see no reason to be unhappy about it.
I prefer FreeBSD over linux, but I'll go with any open-source operating
system over being locked into some closed, proprietary system.
If linux becomes huge and FreeBSD as a project loses "critical mass" to
keep it going, we can all switch over to working on Linux and making it do
the things we need to have it do. This is a good thing.
The more companies go with the open-source idea, the easier it is to
convince companies to try operating systems such as linux or freeBSD. When
advocating freeBSD, we need to keep in mind why we want to advocate it, and
not feel like we have to tear down alternate projects which have some of
the same basic goals. I want to advocate *for* something, not against
"everything else".
---
Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 13:20:50 1998
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To: Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
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Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 15:52:57 EDT."
<v04011702b17a627e674b@[128.113.24.47]>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Well said and it is nice that there are two main stream avenues for
Open Sources.
http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767
Brett is still fighting the good battle over there so please give him
a hand I have as well as other FreeBSD folks . At the InfoWorld's
forum the tide is turning into a more balance opinion so if you care
for FreeBSD the InfoWorld's forum is a nice place to show your support.
***************************************************************************
Be warn, in the future we may spot other forums to stage our FreeBSD agenda
so don't get too comfortable by just going only to the InfoWorld forum.
***************************************************************************
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 14:12:28 1998
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Subject: Target: Corel
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 14:12:12 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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This site offers a wonderful opportunity to support FreeBSD by way
of asking for a FreeBSD port.
http://www.corelcomputer.com
I just send my request for a FreeBSD port by requesting more
info click on:
"I want more info"
Showing your support for FreeBSD has never been easier!!
P.S:. I bought wordperfct a little while ago just to show my support
now I want a FreeBSD port of wordperfect and of netwinder 8)
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 15:35:21 1998
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:35:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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To: Remy NONNENMACHER <remy@synx.com>
cc: adrian@virginia.edu, adrian@nvl.virginia.edu, garbanzo@hooked.net,
advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS..
In-Reply-To: <9805090200.aa12992@s3.synx.com>
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BTW, HP is making HP-UX for 64bit upcoming chip Intel is working
on. So is Solaris. Wonder if FreeBSD will need to be ported also.
-- Yan
Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want
www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark."
Linux == DOS of the Unix world.
On Sat, 9 May 1998, Remy NONNENMACHER wrote:
>On 8 May, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 May 1998, Alex wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.ci.infobeads.com/INSIDER/PAGES/TOPICS/INTERNET/ISP_HW_0505/Default.asp
>>>
>>> Hrm, and FreeBSD was nowhere to be found. Interesting.
>>
>> Very unbelievable that FreeBSD doesn't even come up with 5.7% like
>> HP does. I smell a rat, or at least poor statistical practice.
>>
>> Does it say anywhere that they allowed vendors to "opt in" to the
>> survey? If so, then it is worthless.
>>
>
>Countless incoherencies ;
>
>HP machines: 3%, HP-UX: 5.7% !!
>
>Since when does HP-UX runs somewhere else than under HP computers ?
>
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 17:46:35 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:29:49 -0400
To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: The Classiest Man Alive <ksmm@threespace.com>
Subject: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
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There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on
Netscape's ties to Linux at
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more
interesting paragraphs is:
---->
Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is
called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system.
Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a
"total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop
all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already
compiled the Communicator code for Linux.
<----
If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there
any way that we can get in on it?
K.S.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 18:21:02 1998
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 18:19:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
To: Don Wilde <dwilde1@ibm.net>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: chain letter proposal
In-Reply-To: <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net>
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On Sat, 9 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote:
- a proposed email survey
** snip
Another fellow from UW and I are conspiring to produce a survey in html in
the same vein as this chain letter. Let us finish out this quarter in
school and we will have it served shortly thereafter. This will serve the
purpose that you intend. If you want to get it things done faster let's
talk html/perl.
I would be glad to include your questions in the survey. If you recall, I
requested these sorts of questions from folks on this forum a while ago.
Once you let a chain letter out of the bag it will _NEVER NEVER NEVER
NEVER_ (stated most emphatically) go back in the bag. You absolutely
cannot control this once it starts to circulate.
I must be completely honest. I really despice these sorts of (expletive
deleted) things. As well intentioned as they may be, as much as you try to
explain how important your cause is, as much as you try to target your
audience, they are still SPAM once they get in the wild.
I read Mr. Wilde's reply about my SPAM question. I still think this is
SPAM. Please understand that there might not be a reconciliation of your
views and mine. I do not intend disrespect but I must speak my
convictions. If we must, let us agree to disagree.
The internet is plagued by chain letters of all varieties. I think it is a
bad idea to let the respected FreeBSD name be associated with a chain
letter.
Imagine FreeBSD getting its very own entry on the CIAC chain letters site.
::ugggh::
Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at.
Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 18:23:58 1998
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From: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
In-Reply-To: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> from The Classiest Man Alive at "May 9, 98 07:29:49 pm"
To: ksmm@threespace.com (The Classiest Man Alive)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:27:53 +1000 (EST)
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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The Classiest Man Alive wrote:
> If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there
> any way that we can get in on it?
Jamie Zawinski from Mozilla.org expressed the view that there is no Linux
or FreeBSD port of mozilla, just a Unix port. And the the term "reference
platform" means that all mozilla features are available on the Unix port,
then that includes FreeBSD.
--
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:19:56 1998
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From: Jason Nordwick <nordwick@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU>
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To: The Classiest Man Alive <ksmm@threespace.com>
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
In-Reply-To: ksmm@threespace.com on 5/9/1998 to advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net>
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The Classiest Man Alive, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following:
>
> There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on
> Netscape's ties to Linux at
> http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more
> interesting paragraphs is:
>
> ---->
> Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is
> called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system.
> Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a
> "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop
> all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already
> compiled the Communicator code for Linux.
> <----
>
> If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there
> any way that we can get in on it?
>
>
> K.S.
>
Porbably not, I dont get the feeling that Netscape is doing this
for The Right Reasons, but just more for Market positioning. I
have given up on them and most of the new Open Source companies.
They are not supporting Open Source software, but are using the
"new" idea to get their name out and sell their product.
You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is
giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or
Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all
grownup here.
Jay
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:30:37 1998
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To: Jason Nordwick <nordwick@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU>
cc: The Classiest Man Alive <ksmm@threespace.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG,
chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
In-reply-to: Your message of "10 May 1998 02:21:04 -0000."
<19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu>
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:30:12 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Try to go out with a bang so if you read linux as reference make it
a point to also include FreeBSD as a viable Open OS Platform and if
you get caught in a stupid linux flame fest you can always ask us
for support by posting on this mailing list.
Enjoy,
Amancio
>
> The Classiest Man Alive, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following:
> >
> > There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on
> > Netscape's ties to Linux at
> > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more
> > interesting paragraphs is:
> >
> > ---->
> > Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is
> > called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system.
> > Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a
> > "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop
> > all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already
> > compiled the Communicator code for Linux.
> > <----
> >
> > If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there
> > any way that we can get in on it?
> >
> >
> > K.S.
> >
>
> Porbably not, I dont get the feeling that Netscape is doing this
> for The Right Reasons, but just more for Market positioning. I
> have given up on them and most of the new Open Source companies.
> They are not supporting Open Source software, but are using the
> "new" idea to get their name out and sell their product.
>
> You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is
> giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or
> Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all
> grownup here.
>
> Jay
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:34:21 1998
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To: dwilde1@ibm.net
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: chain letter proposal
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 11:44:27 PDT."
<3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:32:37 -0700
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>To: All FreeBSD Users From: The FreeBSD Project
> “A Finger in the Wind”
>In order to compete in today’s competitive Operating Systems market, we
>need to be able to show large numbers of people using FreeBSD. We’d like
>you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward
If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out
of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far
too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs like
this.
-DG
David Greenman
Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:39:44 1998
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From: Jason Nordwick <nordwick@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU>
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
In-Reply-To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com on 5/9/1998 to nordwick@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU, ksmm@threespace.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG <199805100230.TAA00766@rah.star-gate.com>
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<199805100230.TAA00766@rah.star-gate.com>
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Amancio Hasty, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following:
>
> Try to go out with a bang so if you read linux as reference make it
> a point to also include FreeBSD as a viable Open OS Platform and if
> you get caught in a stupid linux flame fest you can always ask us
> for support by posting on this mailing list.
>
> Enjoy,
> Amancio
>
>
Thanks for the support, but I dont think that anybody is going to
see FreeBSD on their radar for a few more years, I think. People
are too caught up in Linux and the hype. I started submitting
articles to http://slashdot.org that mention FreeBSD, to see if
we can find any help from the Linux users, mellow them out a little,
and maybe stop the foaming at the mouth :)
4.4 > 2.0.103.3543.23b patch-level 65 w/ libc 2.0.39.4312 Mega Distribution
jay
--
4.4 > 95
http://xcf.berkeley.edu/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:47:43 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: dg@root.com, dwilde1@ibm.net
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: chain letter proposal
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On Sat, 9 May 1998 at 19:32:37 -0700, David Greenman wrote:
>> To: All FreeBSD Users From: The FreeBSD Project
>> “A Finger in the Wind”
>> In order to compete in today’s competitive Operating Systems market, we
>> need to be able to show large numbers of people using FreeBSD. We’d like
>> you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward
>
> If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out
> of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far
> too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs like
> this.
I thought this, too, at first, but then it seemed that I would need to
do a lot more to get to the web page. Most people don't use mailers
that automatically transfer to a browser and the correct URL.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:50:13 1998
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: chain letter proposal
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 12:17:17 +0930."
<19980510121717.F12200@freebie.lemis.com>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:48:10 -0700
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>On Sat, 9 May 1998 at 19:32:37 -0700, David Greenman wrote:
>>> To: All FreeBSD Users From: The FreeBSD Project
>>> “A Finger in the Wind”
>>> In order to compete in today’s competitive Operating Systems market, we
>>> need to be able to show large numbers of people using FreeBSD. We’d like
>>> you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward
>>
>> If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out
>> of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far
>> too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs like
>> this.
>
>I thought this, too, at first, but then it seemed that I would need to
>do a lot more to get to the web page. Most people don't use mailers
>that automatically transfer to a browser and the correct URL.
I cut and paste the URL. Perhaps both forms should be provided.
-DG
David Greenman
Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:52:21 1998
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To: Jason Nordwick <nordwick@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU>
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
In-reply-to: Your message of "10 May 1998 02:40:57 -0000."
<19980510024057.11773.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu>
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:52:06 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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All the more reason to post . Like I said lets go out with a bang and
we don't have to rag on linux to do it just ask for FreeBSD to
be considered as a viable alternative OS.
All Is Not Lost,
Amancio
>
> Amancio Hasty, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following:
> >
> > Try to go out with a bang so if you read linux as reference make it
> > a point to also include FreeBSD as a viable Open OS Platform and if
> > you get caught in a stupid linux flame fest you can always ask us
> > for support by posting on this mailing list.
> >
> > Enjoy,
> > Amancio
> >
> >
>
> Thanks for the support, but I dont think that anybody is going to
> see FreeBSD on their radar for a few more years, I think. People
> are too caught up in Linux and the hype. I started submitting
> articles to http://slashdot.org that mention FreeBSD, to see if
> we can find any help from the Linux users, mellow them out a little,
> and maybe stop the foaming at the mouth :)
>
> 4.4 > 2.0.103.3543.23b patch-level 65 w/ libc 2.0.39.4312 Mega Distribution
>
> jay
> --
> 4.4 > 95
> http://xcf.berkeley.edu/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 20:06:31 1998
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 23:05:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
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To: Jason Nordwick <nordwick@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU>
cc: The Classiest Man Alive <ksmm@threespace.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG,
chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
In-Reply-To: <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu>
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On 10 May 1998, Jason Nordwick wrote:
> Porbably not, I dont get the feeling that Netscape is doing this
> for The Right Reasons, but just more for Market positioning. I
> have given up on them and most of the new Open Source companies.
> They are not supporting Open Source software, but are using the
> "new" idea to get their name out and sell their product.
>
> You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is
> giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or
> Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all
> grownup here.
I have posted this same belief myself twice now, and have been told twice
1) we have friends at netscape. 2) Jamie says they want a "UNIX" version
NOT a linux version or FreeBSD version. So each time i'm told this not a
few days later another PRO-Linux article comes out from mozilla's website
or andreesen himself is quoted publicly stating netscapes main
goal is linux. No one has a straight story, it keeps changing,
they say one thing and then a few weeks later say the opposite. Ill just
run the mozilla we have, and if that dies a horrid death ill just run the
linux binary. It isn't a huge deal to me anymore, you have to learn to
pick your fights, and this isn't mine. I would much rather work on
increasing our server share. And thats what im doing. I have found
something here in the pit of hell[1] that actually sells. Little 486's
configured for dial-on-demand, with a 500MB-1GB Squid cache for small
offices. I include a small el cheapo hub and a pack of NE2000 nic cards,
and people are ditching their cable modems at their office :) Another 40K
of these and I can retire!
[1] If you have ever wondered where sinners go after death, they dont go
to hell they go to kansas.
Chris
--
"I don't do favors, I accumulate debts"
===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security
===================================| http://open-systems.net
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 20:19:39 1998
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Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 22:19:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
To: The Classiest Man Alive <ksmm@threespace.com>
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
In-Reply-To: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net>
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On Sat, 9 May 1998, The Classiest Man Alive wrote:
> ---->
> Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is
> called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system.
> Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a
> "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop
> all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already
> compiled the Communicator code for Linux.
> <----
Hm, where have I heard this before?
'The Web browser is an integral part of the OS; you can't take it out...'
I can't imagine he's actually taking that tack.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
| FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be |
* "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is *
| that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."|
* fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller *
| http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd |
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 20:31:16 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 20:32:37 -0700
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
From: Brian Behlendorf <brian@hyperreal.org>
Subject: Re: chain letter proposal
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 12:17 PM 5/10/98 +0930, you wrote:
>On Sat, 9 May 1998 at 19:32:37 -0700, David Greenman wrote:
>> If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out
>> of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far
>> too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs
like
>> this.
>
>I thought this, too, at first, but then it seemed that I would need to
>do a lot more to get to the web page. Most people don't use mailers
>that automatically transfer to a browser and the correct URL.
Don't send the HTML form itself to people, just send a URL *to* the form.
Brian
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 20:35:30 1998
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:36:40 -0400
To: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
From: The Classiest Man Alive <ksmm@threespace.com>
Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 09:27 PM 5/9/98 , you wrote:
>Jamie Zawinski from Mozilla.org expressed the view that there is no Linux
>or FreeBSD port of mozilla, just a Unix port. And the the term "reference
>platform" means that all mozilla features are available on the Unix port,
>then that includes FreeBSD.
Then I wish somebody would drop the word over to Marc. His name dropping
and posing for pictures with Tux aren't doing anything to help the UNIX
community on the whole.
The technical playing field may actually be more level, but we can't afford
to ignore the ugly implications of these statements from a marketing
perspective.
K.S.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 22:11:29 1998
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To: The Classiest Man Alive <ksmm@threespace.com>
cc: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 23:36:40 EDT."
<199805100340.XAA13121@zephyr.cybercom.net>
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Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:11:05 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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To Netscape , Food for Thought:
I don't see anyone bitching about NCI's choice of NetBSD (NC Clients) and
FreeBSD (NC Server) nor Yahoo's choice of FreeBSD servers.
So please elevate FreeBSD to the same status as Linux.
Someone can post or e-mail to Marc the above.
Thank You,
Amancio
I don't see the BSD camps
> At 09:27 PM 5/9/98 , you wrote:
> >Jamie Zawinski from Mozilla.org expressed the view that there is no Linux
> >or FreeBSD port of mozilla, just a Unix port. And the the term "reference
> >platform" means that all mozilla features are available on the Unix port,
> >then that includes FreeBSD.
>
>
> Then I wish somebody would drop the word over to Marc. His name dropping
> and posing for pictures with Tux aren't doing anything to help the UNIX
> community on the whole.
>
> The technical playing field may actually be more level, but we can't afford
> to ignore the ugly implications of these statements from a marketing
> perspective.
>
> K.S.
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 23:55:50 1998
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To: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
cc: Remy NONNENMACHER <remy@synx.com>, adrian@virginia.edu,
adrian@nvl.virginia.edu, garbanzo@hooked.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS..
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 15:35:03 PDT."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980509153316.11054B-100000@shell6.ba.best.com>
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:53:52 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> BTW, HP is making HP-UX for 64bit upcoming chip Intel is working
> on. So is Solaris. Wonder if FreeBSD will need to be ported also.
This question is only coming up for you _now_? [looks around for the
rock which Yan has obviously been hiding under] :-)
Yes, it will naturally need to be ported. If you read any of the
press announcements that Intel has released on this thing over the
last year or so, you'll see that it is not planned to be ABI compliant
with the x86 architecture and OS vendors will need to port to it. In
FreeBSD's case, that's unlikely to even begin until I64 parts are made
more or less widely available to our developers and I don't see that
happening anytime soon. We'll just have to wait and see how the
market develops.
- Jordan
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