From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 00:13:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29343 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 00:13:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29322 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 00:12:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-14.aei.ca [206.186.205.164]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA15943; Sun, 24 May 1998 03:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3567C85E.24F441B9@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 03:12:30 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/BSD/ References: <3566754B.78B28C72@aei.ca> <19980524022609.21670@welearn.com.au> <356772AE.C76BAB13@aei.ca> <19980524154624.58829@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 09:06:54PM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 03:05:48AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > > > I dont know where to mail that post, so I mail it to advocacy ;-) > > > > > > > > I've worked some hours on a new concept for a new FreeBSD.org page. > > > > > > Why? What exactly were you aiming to alter? > > > > > > > Its not perfect, links are broken and there is no new graphics. > > > > > > > > http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/BSD/ > > > > > > Sure, it doesn't fit in my browser window yet. The real one does. > > > > > > I'd like to hear what it is that you think needs changing, before looking > > > at how you're suggesting it could be done. > > > > Sue, present me a screen shot of your web browser when it dont fit and say to > > me your resolution. It work really good with netscape and lynx.... > > I've mailed it to you. > > As you will see, there's a large blank margin on the left and on the > right, and the two columns of text in the centre overlap each other. > I can't see the end of some of the words on the left. > > Other words appear as a list, but I think that some of those words are > supposed to appear together as a single phrase. They don't. > > The bottom half of the page has no text on the left, only a section to > the right of the centre. The four graphics at the bottom are not centred > with respect to this text, and are bunched up. On the FreeBSD site these > four are nicely spread out over the width of the window, whatever size > that window is. > > These are the things that happen when you try describe screen layout > instead of describing the document and letting the client handle it. > > > I really want to do it right just for you ;-) > > That's not a good reason :-) > Besides, it should be right for anybody. It should not work just for my > window, but it should work for every possible window size. > > > It work for me with > > Lynx > > Netscape 4.04 (640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 without any trouble. There is no > > horisontal scrolling) > > MSIE-3.2 (Its not so beautiful with it, but its compatible) > > Did you validate the HTML yet? > > > There is a need to change the link allocation. > > The current page work like a tree > > FreeBSD.ORG --> 10 major choice of URL (3 are at the end of the page... > > Getting FreeBSD, FreeBSD FAQ and Handbook. That stupid to put them there.) > > -->All other link > > > > My page work like that: > > FreeBSD.ORG --> All link (like that, no need to search for the Y2K bug: its > > on the top) > > OK, now that I know what your objectives are I can take a proper look at > it with that in mind. It seems like the main thing you wanted to do was > to put links on the first page which lead to most of the other pages. > That is a nice idea, and you've made a very good start on that part of it > even though it's impossible for me to see it in its best light at the moment. > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- The main problem is OK nowthere was an error, I have forget to do that: CELLPADDING=3 The problem should now be ok. The main problem with your browser setting his than you have modified how big you want to see letters. Its ok, now than I have putted a cellpading. I even tested it with more bigger letter than yours. Now, your problem is than there is a lot of wasted space on the down left side. But there is not a lot of thing to do, that's a main problem when you do 2 vertical line. Also:WIDTH=600 have nothing to do with that problem. For the wasted space on the *left and right*, it should not be wasted when you see the page in the habitual way: there is not to much vertical scrolling. "Did you validate the HTML yet?" I try right now Never forget than when you change the way IN netscape you look a page, you get a good effect but you are penalized on a lot of sites. Its you who take the choice. A problem in Netscape is when you change Fonts Size, you do not change Width size, so it create your problem. To make a site more usefull or more beautiful, sometime you have to do choice. My choice: 99% of the people should not have any problems to see it. 1% should see it without problems, its not so beautifull for them but they can easily read it. 0% should have major problem to read it. Now it should work well for you, but you do not have the more beautiful site in the world. Send me a screen shot of how you see it now. What version of netscape do you use? Anyone can test my page with Chimera and other broswers? Tanx Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 00:41:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04939 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 00:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04918 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 00:40:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-14.aei.ca [206.186.205.164]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA02312; Sun, 24 May 1998 03:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3567CED3.B9097D7@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 03:40:03 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/BSD/ References: <3566754B.78B28C72@aei.ca> <19980524022609.21670@welearn.com.au> <356772AE.C76BAB13@aei.ca> <19980524154624.58829@welearn.com.au> <3567C85E.24F441B9@aei.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Did you validate the HTML yet? http://validator.w3.org/ Try my page on the that URL, you will see I have a lot of work to do to validate it 4.0. Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 00:52:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07650 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 00:52:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07636 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 00:52:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA12665; Sun, 24 May 1998 17:52:23 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980524175220.10000@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 17:52:20 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Malartre Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/BSD/ References: <3566754B.78B28C72@aei.ca> <19980524022609.21670@welearn.com.au> <356772AE.C76BAB13@aei.ca> <19980524154624.58829@welearn.com.au> <3567C85E.24F441B9@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3567C85E.24F441B9@aei.ca>; from Malartre on Sun, May 24, 1998 at 03:12:30AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, May 24, 1998 at 03:12:30AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 09:06:54PM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > > > On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 03:05:48AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > > > > I dont know where to mail that post, so I mail it to advocacy ;-) > > > > > > > > > > I've worked some hours on a new concept for a new FreeBSD.org page. > > > > > > > > Why? What exactly were you aiming to alter? > > > > > > > > > Its not perfect, links are broken and there is no new graphics. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/BSD/ > > > > > > > > Sure, it doesn't fit in my browser window yet. The real one does. > > > > > > > > I'd like to hear what it is that you think needs changing, before looking > > > > at how you're suggesting it could be done. > > > > > > Sue, present me a screen shot of your web browser when it dont fit and say to > > > me your resolution. It work really good with netscape and lynx.... > > > > I've mailed it to you. > > > > As you will see, there's a large blank margin on the left and on the > > right, and the two columns of text in the centre overlap each other. > > I can't see the end of some of the words on the left. > > > > Other words appear as a list, but I think that some of those words are > > supposed to appear together as a single phrase. They don't. > > > > The bottom half of the page has no text on the left, only a section to > > the right of the centre. The four graphics at the bottom are not centred > > with respect to this text, and are bunched up. On the FreeBSD site these > > four are nicely spread out over the width of the window, whatever size > > that window is. > > > > These are the things that happen when you try describe screen layout > > instead of describing the document and letting the client handle it. > > > > > I really want to do it right just for you ;-) > > > > That's not a good reason :-) > > Besides, it should be right for anybody. It should not work just for my > > window, but it should work for every possible window size. > > > > > It work for me with > > > Lynx > > > Netscape 4.04 (640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 without any trouble. There is no > > > horisontal scrolling) > > > MSIE-3.2 (Its not so beautiful with it, but its compatible) > > > > Did you validate the HTML yet? > > > > > There is a need to change the link allocation. > > > The current page work like a tree > > > FreeBSD.ORG --> 10 major choice of URL (3 are at the end of the page... > > > Getting FreeBSD, FreeBSD FAQ and Handbook. That stupid to put them there.) > > > -->All other link > > > > > > My page work like that: > > > FreeBSD.ORG --> All link (like that, no need to search for the Y2K bug: its > > > on the top) > > > > OK, now that I know what your objectives are I can take a proper look at > > it with that in mind. It seems like the main thing you wanted to do was > > to put links on the first page which lead to most of the other pages. > > That is a nice idea, and you've made a very good start on that part of it > > even though it's impossible for me to see it in its best light at the moment. > > > > -- > > > > Regards, > > -*Sue*- > > The main problem is OK nowthere was an error, I have forget to do that: > CELLPADDING=3 > The problem should now be ok. The words still overlap, slightly differently now. > The main problem with your browser setting his than you have modified how big you > want to see letters. Its ok, now than I have putted a cellpading. I even tested it > with more bigger letter than yours. Sorry, I don't see this as being *my* problem. I believe it is up to the client to decide how a page should be displayed. The HTML should merely describe the document structure. If nobody else believes this, fine, I'll shut up. > Now, your problem is than there is a lot of wasted space on the down left side. But > there is not a lot of thing to do, that's a main problem when you do 2 vertical > line. Also:WIDTH=600 have nothing to do with that problem. > > For the wasted space on the *left and right*, it should not be wasted when you see > the page in the habitual way: there is not to much vertical scrolling. I don't think it's worth going into the details any more on this. Either you're happy with the way it is or you heard me the first time. > > "Did you validate the HTML yet?" I try right now > > Never forget than when you change the way IN netscape you look a page, you get a > good effect but you are penalized on a lot of sites. Its you who take the choice. A > problem in Netscape is when you change Fonts Size, you do not change Width size, so > it create your problem. To make a site more usefull or more beautiful, sometime > you have to do choice. > > My choice: 99% of the people should not have any problems to see it. 1% should see > it without problems, its not so beautifull for them but they can easily read it. 0% > should have major problem to read it. Now it should work well for you, but you do > not have the more beautiful site in the world. I do appreciate your trying to help me to set up my browser, but I'm not accustomed to having web pages tell me how to use my software and I probably won't change. If you're happy reaching a proportion of the people out there, simply regard me as being in the remainder. > Send me a screen shot of how you see it now. > What version of netscape do you use? > Anyone can test my page with Chimera and other broswers? No more. If those things are relevant to what you're doing, go right ahead. They're not relevant to what I'm doing. I've told you what I saw and what I thought was wrong, and from there it is up to you to decide what to do. I'm not the only person who can be right. Do whatever you want, and may you and others enjoy the outcomes of whatever you do. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 01:22:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11548 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 01:22:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11538 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 01:22:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-14.aei.ca [206.186.205.164]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA03909; Sun, 24 May 1998 04:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3567D8BE.4889A5EE@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 04:22:22 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/BSD/ References: <3566754B.78B28C72@aei.ca> <19980524022609.21670@welearn.com.au> <356772AE.C76BAB13@aei.ca> <19980524154624.58829@welearn.com.au> <3567C85E.24F441B9@aei.ca> <19980524175220.10000@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, May 24, 1998 at 03:12:30AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 09:06:54PM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 03:05:48AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > > > > > I dont know where to mail that post, so I mail it to advocacy ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > I've worked some hours on a new concept for a new FreeBSD.org page. > > > > > > > > > > Why? What exactly were you aiming to alter? > > > > > > > > > > > Its not perfect, links are broken and there is no new graphics. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/BSD/ > > > > > > > > > > Sure, it doesn't fit in my browser window yet. The real one does. > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to hear what it is that you think needs changing, before looking > > > > > at how you're suggesting it could be done. > > > > > > > > Sue, present me a screen shot of your web browser when it dont fit and say to > > > > me your resolution. It work really good with netscape and lynx.... > > > > > > I've mailed it to you. > > > > > > As you will see, there's a large blank margin on the left and on the > > > right, and the two columns of text in the centre overlap each other. > > > I can't see the end of some of the words on the left. > > > > > > Other words appear as a list, but I think that some of those words are > > > supposed to appear together as a single phrase. They don't. > > > > > > The bottom half of the page has no text on the left, only a section to > > > the right of the centre. The four graphics at the bottom are not centred > > > with respect to this text, and are bunched up. On the FreeBSD site these > > > four are nicely spread out over the width of the window, whatever size > > > that window is. > > > > > > These are the things that happen when you try describe screen layout > > > instead of describing the document and letting the client handle it. > > > > > > > I really want to do it right just for you ;-) > > > > > > That's not a good reason :-) > > > Besides, it should be right for anybody. It should not work just for my > > > window, but it should work for every possible window size. > > > > > > > It work for me with > > > > Lynx > > > > Netscape 4.04 (640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 without any trouble. There is no > > > > horisontal scrolling) > > > > MSIE-3.2 (Its not so beautiful with it, but its compatible) > > > > > > Did you validate the HTML yet? > > > > > > > There is a need to change the link allocation. > > > > The current page work like a tree > > > > FreeBSD.ORG --> 10 major choice of URL (3 are at the end of the page... > > > > Getting FreeBSD, FreeBSD FAQ and Handbook. That stupid to put them there.) > > > > -->All other link > > > > > > > > My page work like that: > > > > FreeBSD.ORG --> All link (like that, no need to search for the Y2K bug: its > > > > on the top) > > > > > > OK, now that I know what your objectives are I can take a proper look at > > > it with that in mind. It seems like the main thing you wanted to do was > > > to put links on the first page which lead to most of the other pages. > > > That is a nice idea, and you've made a very good start on that part of it > > > even though it's impossible for me to see it in its best light at the moment. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Regards, > > > -*Sue*- > > > > The main problem is OK nowthere was an error, I have forget to do that: > > CELLPADDING=3 > > The problem should now be ok. > > The words still overlap, slightly differently now. > > > The main problem with your browser setting his than you have modified how big you > > want to see letters. Its ok, now than I have putted a cellpading. I even tested it > > with more bigger letter than yours. > > Sorry, I don't see this as being *my* problem. I believe it is up to the > client to decide how a page should be displayed. The HTML should merely > describe the document structure. If nobody else believes this, fine, I'll > shut up. > > > Now, your problem is than there is a lot of wasted space on the down left side. But > > there is not a lot of thing to do, that's a main problem when you do 2 vertical > > line. Also:WIDTH=600 have nothing to do with that problem. > > > > For the wasted space on the *left and right*, it should not be wasted when you see > > the page in the habitual way: there is not to much vertical scrolling. > > I don't think it's worth going into the details any more on this. > Either you're happy with the way it is or you heard me the first time. > > > > > "Did you validate the HTML yet?" I try right now > > > > Never forget than when you change the way IN netscape you look a page, you get a > > good effect but you are penalized on a lot of sites. Its you who take the choice. A > > problem in Netscape is when you change Fonts Size, you do not change Width size, so > > it create your problem. To make a site more usefull or more beautiful, sometime > > you have to do choice. > > > > My choice: 99% of the people should not have any problems to see it. 1% should see > > it without problems, its not so beautifull for them but they can easily read it. 0% > > should have major problem to read it. Now it should work well for you, but you do > > not have the more beautiful site in the world. > > I do appreciate your trying to help me to set up my browser, but I'm not > accustomed to having web pages tell me how to use my software and I > probably won't change. If you're happy reaching a proportion of the > people out there, simply regard me as being in the remainder. > > > Send me a screen shot of how you see it now. > > What version of netscape do you use? > > Anyone can test my page with Chimera and other broswers? > > No more. If those things are relevant to what you're doing, go right ahead. > They're not relevant to what I'm doing. I've told you what I saw and what > I thought was wrong, and from there it is up to you to decide what to do. > I'm not the only person who can be right. Do whatever you want, and may > you and others enjoy the outcomes of whatever you do. > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- I dont think its your problem, its *a* problem. But its you who say it to me, so I talk to you ;-) Never think I let you on the side, I was thinking the cellpading would make it OK. If not, send me a screenshot. Me to maybe one day I will use those function in Netscape. If netscape was able to let you arrange width like the font size... I try to found a way to arrange that. Can you please check with your configuration other web site (like linux.org or site like who use the 2 column protocol and try to see if it do the error? http://www.news.com/ http://www.zdnet.com/ etc...) Maybe I will arrange the problem if I do .gif has link like on Linux.ORG left side. Again, say me your Netscape version and a screen shot please. I always listen you, sorry Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 01:35:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12829 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 01:35:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12819 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 01:35:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA12849; Sun, 24 May 1998 18:35:26 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980524183523.64806@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:35:23 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Malartre Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/BSD/ References: <3566754B.78B28C72@aei.ca> <19980524022609.21670@welearn.com.au> <356772AE.C76BAB13@aei.ca> <19980524154624.58829@welearn.com.au> <3567C85E.24F441B9@aei.ca> <19980524175220.10000@welearn.com.au> <3567D8BE.4889A5EE@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3567D8BE.4889A5EE@aei.ca>; from Malartre on Sun, May 24, 1998 at 04:22:22AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, May 24, 1998 at 04:22:22AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > Again, say me your Netscape version and a screen shot please. > > I always listen you, sorry No, I don't think you are listening to me. I only have this to say: HTML is not designed to be used the way you are using it, and if you keep going down this track you will always run into compatibility problems like the ones I showed you. Until you are prepared to learn more about HTML and how it should be used, do whatever you like and enjoy it but you're on your own. Without meaning to be rude, my time can be better spent helping people who are prepared to use more correct and efficient methods. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 01:55:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15457 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 01:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15449 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 01:54:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-14.aei.ca [206.186.205.164]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA04748; Sun, 24 May 1998 04:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3567E04E.9959F218@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 04:54:38 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/BSD/ References: <3566754B.78B28C72@aei.ca> <19980524022609.21670@welearn.com.au> <356772AE.C76BAB13@aei.ca> <19980524154624.58829@welearn.com.au> <3567C85E.24F441B9@aei.ca> <19980524175220.10000@welearn.com.au> <3567D8BE.4889A5EE@aei.ca> <19980524183523.64806@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, May 24, 1998 at 04:22:22AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > > > > Again, say me your Netscape version and a screen shot please. > > > > I always listen you, sorry > > No, I don't think you are listening to me. I only have this to say: > > HTML is not designed to be used the way you are using it, and if you keep > going down this track you will always run into compatibility problems > like the ones I showed you. Until you are prepared to learn more about > HTML and how it should be used, do whatever you like and enjoy it but > you're on your own. Without meaning to be rude, my time can be better > spent helping people who are prepared to use more correct and efficient > methods. > > -- > You say to me than width his basicaly a broken concept? the percent tag (width=30%) currently used on FreeBSD.ORG is NOT HTML 3.2 or 4.0 compliant. To be HTML compliant, you have to put all in pixel so its IMPOSSIBLE to be perfect. I have changed a last thing and tested it even under 48 fonts: it work for me Can you *please* retry a last time my site, I think that time it should be OK. Why do you judge me so hard? I really try. I have passed the last 3 hours if not more to arrange the problem. Can you please now send me a screen shot? I care Tanx Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 02:37:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21276 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 02:37:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21271 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 02:37:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA15764 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 02:37:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: A proposal for focus. Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 02:37:45 -0700 Message-ID: <15760.896002665@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been watching the debates on this list ping-pong back and forth for the last couple of months now, and it occurs to me that one thing we're lacking here is even a reasonable consensus about what areas of FreeBSD advocacy to focus on first. Everyone's got all these good ideas and there's all this energy flowing, but it's also moving in a lot of different directions and, in some cases, even directly against itself. I'm not saying that a bit of uncontrolled ferment isn't a good thing, but without some sort of overlying structure and set of ground rules, it all quickly degrades to a room full of people trying to shout over one another. So, without trying to imply that my "vision" should supercede anyone else's (these are only suggestions), here are a couple of initial "ground rules" which I'd like to suggest: First, we agree to set aside, and strictly for the time being, all discussion on "commercializing" FreeBSD or the kinds of corporate entities we'd like to see formed to provide this or that support or this or that embedded product. I know that's a very large category of activity to set aside so casually, and don't think that I haven't spent a fair amount of time thinking it over, but I really think that choosing to focus on this *now*, right when we're really only just beginning to have a dedicated advocacy group at all, would be bad timing. I'd much rather we focused on gaining a better toehold in the free software community and attracting a greater number of followers there before even thinking seriously about spending much of our time and resources dealing with the far more demanding world of commercial software. I can appreciate people's impatience to reach "level two", but frankly I think we still have a ways to go in mastering "level one" and I'd really rather do that first since it'll also be a lot easier to contemplate a commercial venture if some larger compnent of the free software world is substantially more behind us. My second suggestion is that we agree to knock it off with the negative advertising. If we're to win at PR, it won't be because we're better at pointing out our opponent's flaws than we are at extolling our own virtues. A certain amount of pointed comparison is all well and good in certain contexts, but it's not a substitute for a good sales approach. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 05:05:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08279 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 05:05:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA08274 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 05:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0ydZWI-0006nT-00; Sun, 24 May 1998 13:04:54 +0100 Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 13:04:54 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@red.csi.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: "John T. Farmer" cc: billy@idiom.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business In-Reply-To: <199805232343.TAA05828@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >To paraphrase a quote from my younger days in the industry: > > "Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft..." > >The simple truth is that shops that would be swayed by such arguements >are already running or considering running Solaris, Idrix, HPUX, Aix, etc. >That is, shops that are already willing to consider a non-Microsoft >solution. In any case we can always find examples of people who *were* fired for buying Microsoft; for example, I seem to remember a URL (from this list) about banks (NatWest in Britain and something in Australia, I think) which started to use NT and had massive problems, resulting in the person responsible being fired. Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 08:15:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29300 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:15:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA29273 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:14:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11077; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:14:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980524111452.38790@cheddar.netmonger.net> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 11:14:52 -0400 From: Ted Stein To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Newsletter #2 Reply-To: ted@taki.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems FreeBSD Newsletter #2 has made it to Slashdot. I don't recall who alerted the list to its posting, but it's under the name "Ashley". Check it out at http://slashdot.org, or more specifically at http://slashdot.org/articles/980424106203.shtml. Perhaps we should give Rob thanks for mentioning FreeBSD. :-) -- Ted Stein ted@taki.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 08:59:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04308 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04300 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id IAA11870; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:59:00 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id IAA02381; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 08:57:23 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A proposal for focus. In-Reply-To: <15760.896002665@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 24 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >My second suggestion is that we agree to knock it off with the >negative advertising. If we're to win at PR, it won't be because Yes. Yes. Yes. FreeBSD has a great product. It need not exist as an antagonist toward other software. Let it exist because it has much merit in its own right. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 11:17:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20368 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main_sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.75.26.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA20358 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:17:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di02hh.bonline.net (di02hh.bonline.net [194.75.27.130]) by main_sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id xa596021 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 20:16:05 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15760.896002665@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:16:42 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: RE: A proposal for focus. Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 24-May-98 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I've been watching the debates on this list ping-pong back and forth > for the last couple of months now, and it occurs to me that one thing > we're lacking here is even a reasonable consensus about what areas of > FreeBSD advocacy to focus on first. Everyone's got all these good Who could not agree. :) > ideas and there's all this energy flowing, but it's also moving in a > lot of different directions and, in some cases, even directly against > itself. I'm not saying that a bit of uncontrolled ferment isn't a > good thing, but without some sort of overlying structure and set of > ground rules, it all quickly degrades to a room full of people trying > to shout over one another. The 'shouting' reflects structural shortcomings of the FreeBSD project. Of course not technical deficiencies, but rather organisational. FreeBSD was being silently commended as "the better free OS" over a long time and people are now going to believe it. A year ago one could carefully try to suggest using FreeBSD , today FreeBSD is for several purposes a conceivable choice. This leads to new demands, which can't be refused to be satisfied if FreeBSD shall continue its successful way. > So, without trying to imply that my "vision" should supercede anyone > else's (these are only suggestions), here are a couple of initial > "ground rules" which I'd like to suggest: > > First, we agree to set aside, and strictly for the time being, all > discussion on "commercializing" FreeBSD or the kinds of corporate > entities we'd like to see formed to provide this or that support or > this or that embedded product. I know that's a very large category of > activity to set aside so casually, and don't think that I haven't > spent a fair amount of time thinking it over, but I really think that > choosing to focus on this *now*, right when we're really only just > beginning to have a dedicated advocacy group at all, would be bad > timing. I'd much rather we focused on gaining a better toehold in the > free software community and attracting a greater number of followers > there before even thinking seriously about spending much of our time > and resources dealing with the far more demanding world of commercial > software. I can appreciate people's impatience to reach "level two", > but frankly I think we still have a ways to go in mastering "level > one" and I'd really rather do that first since it'll also be a lot > easier to contemplate a commercial venture if some larger compnent of > the free software world is substantially more behind us. How would you define the 'free software community'. Is Linux still part of it? I don't really believe so. Linux is a market, remember only the 'Corel debate'. 'Free' is not sufficiently described by 'you can get the software and its sources for no fee'. Free software is becoming the medium on and for which commercial products are made. That's in some respects the opposite to the situation ten years ago, when commercial products were needed for realising and using free software. Today most free software and even a non-negligible part of commercial software is implemented on free systems (netscape debate). FreeBSD, I think, has two choices: 1. To get/have volunteer and commercial supporters as well as commercial competitors or 2. to get/have volunteer supporters and commercial competitors. The latter wouldn't look very promising. Economical success binds man power and knowledge. I'm afraid FreeBSD won't have the opportunity to consolidate before getting a (more or less) established OS. Things like 'winframe' or any flavour of 'nc' unmisledingly show the (always intermediate) goal of the travel - as well as the advantagous of serving capable OSs like xyzBSD. The more it's fairly disappointing if you can convince a customer of the advantages of FreeBSD and then must say, "unfortunately FreeBSD would not even satisfy 10% of your demands". :-( > My second suggestion is that we agree to knock it off with the > negative advertising. If we're to win at PR, it won't be because > we're better at pointing out our opponent's flaws than we are at > extolling our own virtues. A certain amount of pointed comparison is > all well and good in certain contexts, but it's not a substitute for a > good sales approach. Indeed, many mails of the last weeks had got a lot in common with letters of disappointed lovers. And everyone knows, sympathy is much better propagated by other strategies. FreeBSD needs a community which shows that it believes in its OS - technically and economically, but not religiously. Nota bene - the community needs to appear like that, not necessarily each member. Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 11:43:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22988 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22973 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA27315; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:45:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980524111452.38790@cheddar.netmonger.net> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 11:45:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Ted Stein Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newsletter #2 Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA22974 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 24-May-98 Ted Stein wisely wrote: > It seems FreeBSD Newsletter #2 has made it to Slashdot. I don't recall who > alerted the list to > its posting, but it's under the name "Ashley". Check it out at > http://slashdot.org, or more > specifically at http://slashdot.org/articles/980424106203.shtml. Perhaps we > should give Rob > thanks for mentioning FreeBSD. :-) > How come I can't find newsletter #2 on the FreeBSD web site? Nicole > -- > Ted Stein ted@taki .net > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 11:51:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24008 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23961 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12896; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:50:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805241850.LAA12896@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: ted@taki.net cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newsletter #2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 1998 11:14:52 EDT." <19980524111452.38790@cheddar.netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 11:50:52 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Newsletter #2 looks good . Is anyone on this mailing list working towards newsletter #3? Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 12:00:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24959 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 12:00:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24881 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 11:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17202; Sun, 24 May 1998 12:00:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: kuehl@lgk.de cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A proposal for focus. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 1998 20:16:42 +0200." Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:00:17 -0700 Message-ID: <17198.896036417@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The 'shouting' reflects structural shortcomings of the FreeBSD project. I'm afraid I was unable to parse this paragraph at all, sorry. :( What specifically do you see as a shortcoming we could try to rectify? > How would you define the 'free software community'. Is Linux still part of it I'm not really concerned with how Linux categorizes itself right now, my principle worry being that we're beginning to have an identity crisis of our own. We need to re-focus on the fact that we are, first and foremost, a free software project which is principally maintained by people who really like free software and wouldn't even BE here were it not for that fact. There's a good parable about a goose which lays golden eggs and its greedy owners cutting it open to get the eggs out faster which would probably apply here. I'm all for measured progress towards a series of greater goals, but frankly I'm feeling rather PUSHED here these days to Go Commercial and I don't like it. I'll do it when I'm damn good and ready and not one minute before, thank you very much. In the meantime, there's a world of promotion to do strictly within the free software community, promotion which will pay big dividends later, and we need to be just a little more patient about it. Many folks say that that linux has about a 3 year lead on FreeBSD, and it's simply going to take us some time to make that up. They also say that Linux has several million hobbiests who have made Linux their personal passion and I'd like to be able to say the same thing for FreeBSD before I even think about commercial ventures. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 12:55:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02918 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 12:55:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic11.pm06.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02888 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 12:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA05118; Sun, 24 May 1998 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980524125500.B5074@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:55:00 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Amancio Hasty , ted@taki.net Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newsletter #2 Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <19980524111452.38790@cheddar.netmonger.net> <199805241850.LAA12896@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805241850.LAA12896@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, May 24, 1998 at 11:50:52AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, May 24, 1998 at 11:50:52AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Newsletter #2 looks good . > > Is anyone on this mailing list working towards newsletter #3? > > Amancio > > Amancio, Why don't you write an article about your FreeBSD Answering Machine. It's still the coolest thing I've heard of in the last few months. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 13:05:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04422 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 13:05:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04372 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 13:05:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13265; Sun, 24 May 1998 13:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805242005.NAA13265@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com cc: ted@taki.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newsletter #2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 1998 12:55:00 PDT." <19980524125500.B5074@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 13:05:21 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Got a small problem over here, the new vgetty is not receiving audio too well and I have not been able to track down the problem. Also my answering machine is based upon the linux project mgetty/vgetty and I personally rather advertise a more OS neutral software package such as hylafax. Currently planning some cool ideas for my FreeBSD answering machine project -- for instance a java applet to play remotely your voice mails as well as to display any received faxes. Regards, Amancio > On Sun, May 24, 1998 at 11:50:52AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Newsletter #2 looks good . > > > > Is anyone on this mailing list working towards newsletter #3? > > > > Amancio > > > > > > Amancio, > > Why don't you write an article about your FreeBSD Answering Machine. It's > still the coolest thing I've heard of in the last few months. > > > Josef > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 15:27:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24158 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 15:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050n33.san.rr.com (@dt053nd2.san.rr.com [204.210.34.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA24144; Sun, 24 May 1998 15:26:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050n33.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09152; Sun, 24 May 1998 15:26:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <35689EB2.856DE36E@san.rr.com> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:26:58 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE-0507 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A proposal for focus. References: <15760.896002665@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I've been watching the debates on this list ping-pong back and forth > for the last couple of months now, and it occurs to me that one thing > we're lacking here is even a reasonable consensus about what areas of > FreeBSD advocacy to focus on first. I think the problem is more fundamental than that. There is no clear consensus on what "freebsd" wants to be. You've expressed part of that here. Before you can do effective advocacy you have to have a group consensus on what you're advocating for. Unfortunately right now people are each advocating for their own view of what they want it to be, which leads to the circumstances you describe. Yes, I know that anarchy is part of the nature of the freebsd project, however not only does it not work in a promotional campaign it actually makes us look very foolish. > First, we agree to set aside, and strictly for the time being, all > discussion on "commercializing" FreeBSD I agree, but I'd like to see a clearer definition. I really believe that this is a good time to push forward on promoting freebsd as a "commercial" solution to ISP's and other server markets. People are starting to look past linux (momentum slowing, "ok, we've done that" attitude, etc.) and they are WAY disillusioned with NT. However our trying to promote anything that doesn't actually exist right now is overextending our limited resources. > My second suggestion is that we agree to knock it off with the > negative advertising. Absolutely. There is a huge difference between, "Let me show you how FreeBSD performs in comparison with some products that you are familiar with," and "Microsoft sucks, let me show you why." :) We need to stop bashing people and focus on the strengths that we have. Our concern is not taking market share away from linux, (or MS for that matter). Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud designer and maintainer of one of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server with 5,328 simultaneous connections *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 16:06:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28833 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 16:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28761; Sun, 24 May 1998 16:05:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from don (D-128-95-141-170.dhcp.washington.edu [128.95.141.170]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with SMTP id QAA03786; Sun, 24 May 1998 16:05:44 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980524160813.006e8e9c@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> X-Sender: dmorrisn@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:08:13 -0700 To: Studded , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: don morrison Subject: Re: A proposal for focus. Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35689EB2.856DE36E@san.rr.com> References: <15760.896002665@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think the problem is more fundamental than that. There is no clear >consensus on what "freebsd" wants to be. You've expressed part of that >here. Before you can do effective advocacy you have to have a group >consensus on what you're advocating for. Unfortunately right now people >are each advocating for their own view of what they want it to be, which >leads to the circumstances you describe. I think if we can establish a formal process for decision making within the advocacy group, a concensus can be reached. However the process of decision ratifies a concensus action, (by senior advocacy members, members of the core team, or what have you), I think it should be started with a show of hands from the masses.:) Jason Wells and I have been discussing engineering a survey page for the advocacy group that could be used as a formal voting process as well as for finding out where the group's interests are. (I plan to actually start writing the cgi for it after finals week is over.:) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 16:24:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01314 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 16:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01174 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 16:23:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14437; Sun, 24 May 1998 16:23:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805242323.QAA14437@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A proposal for focus. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 1998 02:37:45 PDT." <15760.896002665@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:23:51 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Try to recruit a small qualified task team to layout the foundation of the advocacy group. I would suggest to get input for instance from someone like Brett Glass. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 16:43:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03493 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 16:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03481; Sun, 24 May 1998 16:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14530; Sun, 24 May 1998 16:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805242342.QAA14530@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: mailing lists? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:42:50 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the future , I hope that before a new mailing list is created for it to have sufficient cohesiveness to be effective and that the list should have a leader or small task team to orient the list. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 17:38:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14309 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 17:38:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA14300 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 17:37:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-29-29.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.29]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id RAA19752 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 17:37:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" Cc: Subject: Re: A proposal for focus. Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:07:59 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8768$cbacf420$3001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >We need to re-focus on the fact that we are, first and foremost, a >free software project which is principally maintained by people who >really like free software and wouldn't even BE here were it not for >that fact. There's a good parable about a goose which lays golden >eggs and its greedy owners cutting it open to get the eggs out faster >which would probably apply here. I'm all for measured progress i want to buy better goose food and a goose house. cutting the goose open would be counter-prioductive. but it would be nice if the goose would stop laying those eggs in the river. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 17:48:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15210 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 17:48:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15204 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 17:48:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-29-29.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.29]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id RAA22251; Sun, 24 May 1998 17:48:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Amancio Hasty" Cc: Subject: Re: mailing lists? Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 17:36:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8775$30080fc0$LocalHost@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >In the future , I hope that before a new mailing list is created for it >to have sufficient cohesiveness to be effective and that the list >should have a leader or small task team to orient the list. agreed. freebsd-business? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 18:12:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18015 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 18:12:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17977; Sun, 24 May 1998 18:12:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805250112.SAA17977@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: mailing lists? In-Reply-To: <199805242342.QAA14530@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 24, 98 04:42:50 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty wrote: > > In the future , I hope that before a new mailing list is created for it > to have sufficient cohesiveness to be effective and that the list > should have a leader or small task team to orient the list. > > Amancio i have doubts about lists having leaders. newbies and sue blake seem to be the exception rather than the rule. who is the leader or small task team or questions (doug white ? ;).....well, how about hackers, then. or fs or mozilla? its useful to have a place to discuss various aspects of FreeBSD even with a leader or small task team, in my opinion. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 18:31:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21126 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 18:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21101 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 18:31:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24698; Sun, 24 May 1998 18:31:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Jack Velte" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A proposal for focus. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 1998 16:07:59 PDT." <01bd8768$cbacf420$3001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:31:30 -0700 Message-ID: <24694.896059890@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > i want to buy better goose food and a goose house. cutting the > goose open would be counter-prioductive. but it would be nice if > the goose would stop laying those eggs in the river. Whatever, Jack, whatever... - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 19:09:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25810 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 19:09:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25795; Sun, 24 May 1998 19:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15057; Sun, 24 May 1998 19:09:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805250209.TAA15057@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mailing lists? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 1998 18:12:26 PDT." <199805250112.SAA17977@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 19:09:02 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I disagree. Traditionally, the FreeBSD lists are way too chatty which is good however I like to see the group move more into an action-driven mode . You want to chat use bsd-chat . You wish to contribute use a technical forum. Amancio > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > In the future , I hope that before a new mailing list is created for it > > to have sufficient cohesiveness to be effective and that the list > > should have a leader or small task team to orient the list. > > > > Amancio > > i have doubts about lists having leaders. > newbies and sue blake seem to be the exception rather > than the rule. who is the leader or small task team or > questions (doug white ? ;).....well, how about hackers, > then. or fs or mozilla? > > its useful to have a place to discuss various aspects of > FreeBSD even with a leader or small task team, in my opinion. > jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 19:14:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26600 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 19:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26551 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 19:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15110; Sun, 24 May 1998 19:13:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805250213.TAA15110@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jack Velte" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mailing lists? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 1998 17:36:42 PDT." <01bd8775$30080fc0$LocalHost@eliot.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 19:13:42 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >In the future , I hope that before a new mailing list is created for it > >to have sufficient cohesiveness to be effective and that the list > >should have a leader or small task team to orient the list. > > agreed. freebsd-business? > > -jack > > Thats not bad . My first suggestion is to gather together a small team to hash out the business group . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 21:34:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14233 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 21:34:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14166 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 21:33:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09306; Sun, 24 May 1998 22:33:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3568F480.8799FAF2@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:33:04 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicole CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gigabit FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nicole wrote: > I have been playing with a Packet Engines Gigabit Ethernet hub and ethernet ca > rds that have drivers for FreeBSD. (third party) I want to write up an article/p > aper on my testing highlighting FreeBSD. So far I have tested transfering files > via mv and ftping, (so far I have reached 15.6MB/s via ncftp) and I have planned > some NFS tests. However I would like to know what tests would best show off Fr > eeBSD and the Gigbit ethernet. I've used tcpblast, found in ports and packages, for throughput testing. I don't know how it'll stack up to your requirements, I was using it to test a dial-up router with a variety of 28.8, 33.6, and 56K modems, which isn't on the same planet, let alone in the same ballpark. > I think that this writeup could help a great deal in showing FreeBSD as a Real > World, we can play with the Big Toys OS. However I would like to know what tests > would best show off FreeBSD and the Gigbit ethernet. Amen. Try'em all. If you want to do a REAL(tm) test, find someplace you can beg, borrow or steal a SmartBits. If I had a GigE card, I'd offer you the services of the lab at work for a weekend, but we don't have a Gig card for the SmartBits yet. (I'm not even sure they have one yet.) We're still waiting for our layer-3 interface cards so we can make the SmartBits do funky stuff at the IP layer. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 22:44:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22569 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 22:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22548 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 22:44:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09733; Sun, 24 May 1998 23:44:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35690531.A727E05D@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 23:44:17 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com CC: Amancio Hasty , ted@taki.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newsletter #2 References: <19980524111452.38790@cheddar.netmonger.net> <199805241850.LAA12896@rah.star-gate.com> <19980524125500.B5074@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Josef Grosch wrote: > > > Amancio, > > Why don't you write an article about your FreeBSD Answering Machine. It's > still the coolest thing I've heard of in the last few months. I agree. I've wanted for years now an answering machine that would take a message and send it to me in an e-mail, with "Caller ID" information, if available. Let me know if I can help. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 23:00:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25330 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 23:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25313 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 23:00:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16111; Sun, 24 May 1998 23:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805250600.XAA16111@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Wes Peters cc: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, ted@taki.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newsletter #2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 1998 23:44:17 MDT." <35690531.A727E05D@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 23:00:11 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Here are my old instructions on how to get an answering machine with e-mail forwarding and caller id which is what I have over here. ftp://rah.star-gate.com/pub/Voice.FAQ Currently with the latest vgetty the audio recording from my Zyxel U1496 is not very clear. At the time of writing the Voice.FAQ and right up till I upgraded to the latest vgetty, the answering machine used to work very reliably. The problem is that back in October my system crashed and I lost the original vgetty setup and sources. Most of the functionality which I had on mgetty/vgetty is now provided by the latest mgetty/vgetty -- the authors just simply added them independently. Cheers, Amancio > Josef Grosch wrote: > > > > > > Amancio, > > > > Why don't you write an article about your FreeBSD Answering Machine. It's > > still the coolest thing I've heard of in the last few months. > > I agree. I've wanted for years now an answering machine that would take > a message and send it to me in an e-mail, with "Caller ID" information, > if available. Let me know if I can help. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 24 23:12:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27687 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 23:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27680 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 23:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16166; Sun, 24 May 1998 23:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805250612.XAA16166@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Wes Peters cc: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, ted@taki.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newsletter #2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 1998 23:44:17 MDT." <35690531.A727E05D@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 23:12:09 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I am going to open the technical discussion about the voice answering machine project to multimedia@freebsd.org. Regards, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 25 04:15:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27768 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 04:15:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA27755 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 04:15:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-95.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.95]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id EAA18611 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 04:15:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" Cc: Subject: Re: mailing lists? Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 04:09:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd87cd$9b83e640$5f01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> agreed. freebsd-business? >> >> -jack >> >> >Thats not bad . > >My first suggestion is to gather together a small team to hash out >the business group . this is not how an anarchy works. first create the mailing list, then those who chose to participate select themselves. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 25 10:23:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25023 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 10:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25013 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 10:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09523; Mon, 25 May 1998 13:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980525132304.34592@cheddar.netmonger.net> Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:23:04 -0400 From: Ted Stein To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Advocacy Shortcomings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It hurts me deeply to read through the 110 comments on Slashdot regarding FreeBSD Newsletter #2. A full-scale flamewar has developed, and at this point I am ashamed to read any further. Not to mention any names, although those who deserve mention also deserve a swift kick in the ass, some of us have kept our community's good name. As for the rest, who knows. -- Ted Stein ted@taki.net CGI/Backend taki solutions, inc. http://www.taki.net PGP available upon request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 25 10:25:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25533 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 10:25:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25514 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 10:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18073; Mon, 25 May 1998 10:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805251725.KAA18073@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jack Velte" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mailing lists? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 May 1998 04:09:38 PDT." <01bd87cd$9b83e640$5f01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:25:31 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG True, however, the multimedia mailing list started on this box right here and then migrated to freebsd.org. The scsi project started as a project then migrated to freebd.org. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 25 15:25:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19110 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 15:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19072 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 15:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (pm04-16.aei.ca [206.123.6.191]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00664; Mon, 25 May 1998 18:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3569EFC4.D9C831E1@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:25:08 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Velte CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mailing lists? References: <01bd87cd$9b83e640$5f01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jack Velte wrote: > >> agreed. freebsd-business? > >> > >> -jack > >> > >> > >Thats not bad . > > > >My first suggestion is to gather together a small team to hash out > >the business group . > > this is not how an anarchy works. first create the mailing list, then > those who chose to participate select themselves. > > -jack > I agree to the fact than its an anarchy and than each people do what they want. But maybe we need some tools? I'm sure it could interest someone to studie how a free project work :-) Tool 1 Each week, the manager of the list do an overview and a resume of what where the goods idea, what where the main topic, who have done what, what idea we have forgot, what was bad this week. Tool 2 He do a list on a web page of "You want to help, here is sugestion of what you can do" Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 25 20:53:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11413 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 20:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11164 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 20:52:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11314; Mon, 25 May 1998 21:52:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <356A3C74.7A303AED@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:52:20 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business References: <01bd85e0$2dccb1c0$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> <199805230337.UAA02883@osprey.grizzly.com> <3626-Sat23May1998005302-0400-kriston@ibm.net> <199805230527.WAA03120@osprey.grizzly.com> <7442-Sat23May1998233810-0400-kriston@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kriston J. Rehberg wrote: > Yeah, but I thought the problem is that you don't have a guarantee > that the scheduler will run your Apache process on the second Pentium. > I don't tend to believe that merely adding processors automatically > makes everything faster. Sure it will, even if only because all the *other* processes are running on the other processor. It's not exactly symmetric, but it still helps for at least two processors. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 00:14:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07114 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 00:14:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from saten.dyn.ml.org (84ppp10.gulftel.com [208.226.46.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07019 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 00:13:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (advocacy@localhost) by saten.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA01443 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 02:10:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 02:10:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Desktop OS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I read a few messages saying that FreeBSD should stick to being a robust 'Server OS', but I disagree entirely. I believe the direction of FreeBSD should be attacking both scenes, desktop and server. We will not recieve third party support, in the form of software, if we do not prove ourselfs as being the best, or near-best, OS for a workstation desktop. I recall earlier posts from people talking about wanting to get Corel to make freebsd-native programs, this will not happen unless we develop a name for FreeBSD in the desktop OS arena if we are to go into combat with other platforms for software makers to port. GUI is the key to the desktop front, we need to focus more attention at it, and we are beginning to do that. I am going to take action on my previous idea about the commercial unix website, that will focus on bringing companys to the light of FreeBSD, when I finish a current project that myself and two other people are working on to help spread FreeBSD advocacy. I have recieved several emails about the idea, and plan to launch the site sometime in the next few months. -- Phillip Salzman http://saten.dyn.ml.org/ " I think of you as a person..." <- Bad Comment To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 01:49:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19839 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 01:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19828 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 01:49:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02741; Tue, 26 May 1998 01:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805260848.BAA02741@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Phillip Salzman cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Desktop OS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 May 1998 02:10:19 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:48:49 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, I do consider FreeBSD a good Desktop OS. I found this at Netscape website: ftp://rah.star-gate.com/pub/webtop.zip It allows the browser to be part of your root window 8) Enjoy, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 03:12:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29733 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 03:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA29728 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 03:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA05522; Tue, 26 May 1998 12:13:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980526121304.51425@cons.org> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:13:04 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Ted Stein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Braindead FreeBSD advocates (Re: Advocacy Shortcomings) References: <19980525132304.34592@cheddar.netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980525132304.34592@cheddar.netmonger.net>; from Ted Stein on Mon, May 25, 1998 at 01:23:04PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In <19980525132304.34592@cheddar.netmonger.net>, Ted Stein wrote: > It hurts me deeply to read through the 110 comments on Slashdot > regarding FreeBSD Newsletter #2. A full-scale flamewar has > developed, and at this point I am ashamed to read any further. Not > to mention any names, although those who deserve mention also > deserve a swift kick in the ass, some of us have kept our > community's good name. As for the rest, who knows. I just read some of it and share your opinion. As the author of one the the articles in the newsletter I have to say I am seriously unhappy that some FreeBSD advocactes ruined a large part of the potential benefit I had in mind when investing the time to write it. That the newsletter has been mentioned at all on slashdot.org was a happy surpise for me, I doubt it will happen again :-( We badly need to stop these FreeBSD "advocates" who damage our reputation. They damage our picture in the mind of a lot of serious Linux users, as similar Linux advocates do in different forums for the minds of potential Non-Windows users. In a way it is comparable to what I experience when I come to a new customer and mention "I work with and on free software, but I don't like Linux' attitude and swear on FreeBSD". Those technically-touched managers of WWW startup companies immedeatly jump on, more than one would expect given all the hype on Linux. These folks are *tired* of brainless advocacy. Now people tend to say the FreeBSD fights in forums like slashdot.org usually don't reach potential corporate users and pissing of Linux user's can't hurt since they are not likely to use FreeBSD anyway. But let's not forget that a lot of serious FreeBSD people are Linux converts. I think it's critical for FreeBSD's survival that we look serious from a Linux user's standpoint and that they will consider contributing to FreeBSD when they get tired of Linux somehow. The same applies to all the Linux-oriented yournalists who will follow disussions such as the one at slashdot.org closely. Is anyone a personaly friend or at least in a face-to-face position to the folks at hand? Or even better, do you copy yourself? We all want to push FreeBSD, but let's not get in each other's way. Start talking to us about proper advocacy and let us all give up some of our extreme standpoints to focus on our common goal! The discussion on slashdot.org has been an excellent opportunity to look great by adding useful comments, admitting mistakes, explaining FreeBSD design decisions. Has been. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 05:12:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13896 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 05:12:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (dub019.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13866 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 05:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@mpx.com.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (funguys@right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA01059 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 22:14:11 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980526221451.007fe780@m1.gdr.net.au> X-Sender: right@m1.gdr.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:14:51 +1000 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: RE: A proposal for focus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I agree with Jordan, a commercial freebsd should not be a short term goal for the advocacy. And I also agree with Jordan that there should be a goal. Now I will avoid advocating anything to clarify where I am coming from. What advocacy needs to do is find an activity that combines our favourite activities, to start the ball rolling I think we need take stock of what it is that we find satisfying. 1./ talking about doing things 2./ tinkering with freebsd boxes 3./ being prepared to accept little or no progress 4./ enjoy moving onto too newer more interesting topics 5./ talking about doing things 6./ not starting what we finished there's something else I can't remember as well ... now we could do something altruistic, like donate a few 486's to some under privileged school, but that would not motivate the group sufficiently to create focus. What I'm suggesting is we donate a couple of twin pentium pro's, some huge scsi raid arrays, a 100mbit fibre satellite link to some 3rd world country and set up "the largest porn site in the world". We then use the enormous amount of traffic through the web server as a means "promoting" whatever we want as well as porn and FreeBSD. Just think of the amount of money we can make out of it. Then everyone can have a section of the porn server advocating whatever it is we want to advocate. I'll even write an article for newsletter #3 about how advocacy started such a great task "FreeBSD: hard core through and through" And we still keep FreeBSD free ... I nominate my self as group critic in whatever goal it is, that we pursue after this noble and great task. My previous experience includes a./ passionately advocating hard mouse matts when everyone had agreed on soft mouse matts. b./ passionately advocating "less than intuitive" as our new slogan when everyone had agreed on "the power to serve". c./ passionately interjecting at inappropriate moments when everyone had agreed on becoming more focused. d./ passionately advocating that we reintroduce the role of president to the freebsd core and then not suggesting a worthy person (hint, hint!). e./ passionately advocating that previous experience as a critic is sufficient experience to become president. f./ previous advisory roles in the Indonesian government, as quoted on CNN "those students do not represent a threat to the Suharto regime". g./ passionately argued that the office of president should be re titled "Protector of the FreeWorld" h./ passionately argued that whoever downloads FreeBSD from Walnut Creek should get a complimentary free kitten Well at least you read this far, so can we agree at least in the short term to agree on whatever someone else suggests and not think about doing it, "just try it". So far in the 3 months I have been subscribe to this list it has as a group failed to do anything. tongue firmly in the cheek. Phil Grainger <--insert witty but inappropriate quote here--> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 05:54:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18739 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 05:54:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA18726 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 05:54:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id IAA06353; Tue, 26 May 1998 08:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:52:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: phil grainger cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: A proposal for focus In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980526221451.007fe780@m1.gdr.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 26 May 1998, phil grainger wrote: > 1./ talking about doing things > 2./ tinkering with freebsd boxes > 3./ being prepared to accept little or no progress > 4./ enjoy moving onto too newer more interesting topics > 5./ talking about doing things > 6./ not starting what we finished For me, the best way is to keep doing FreeBSD consulting, and for instance building dial on demand ppp boxes with good size squid caches and a web server and mail server on them to serve as small office net connections. These things sell like hot cakes. There cheap, they dont fail, and people are stunned that FreeBSD is powering these boxes when 95 and NT cant even stay up for 24 hours with a SINGLE user and yet these little dinky 486's are serving the entire LAN. > What I'm suggesting is we donate a couple of twin pentium pro's, some huge > scsi raid arrays, a 100mbit fibre satellite link to some 3rd world country > and set up "the largest porn site in the world". We then use the enormous > amount of traffic through the web server as a means "promoting" whatever we > want as well as porn and FreeBSD. Just think of the amount of money we can > make out of it. Then everyone can have a section of the porn server > advocating whatever it is we want to advocate. I'll even write an article > for newsletter #3 about how advocacy started such a great task "FreeBSD: > hard core through and through" > And we still keep FreeBSD free ... Already been done, see www.persiankitty.com Massive porn site (or so ive been told) that runs FreeBSD. Talk to them about slapping a FreeBSD logo on the front. Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 07:04:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28533 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 07:04:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28490 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA06534; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:05:21 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980526160521.63923@cons.org> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:05:21 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD coverage on opensource.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't know what exactly, but appareantly Eric Raymond's opensource.org Website has been subject to some changes (or was it my mind :-). After reviewing it again, I found no inapproriate Linux advocacy, FreeBSD mentioned where it should and naming Linux "the most popular open-source operating system", which I consider carefully chosen words. All-in-all I think it serves its goal well now (which is mine as well), providing a more balanced software overview and focusing on those software levels users actually care about (either networking server software or end-user applications - gimp, gnome, kde) and not stepping on somebody else' toes. Whatever people sent to Eric, it is obviously better than other FreeBSD advocacy :-) Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 08:39:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17507 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 08:39:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main_sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.122.116.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA17460 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 08:39:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di07hh.bonline.net (di07hh.bonline.net [194.75.27.135]) by main_sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id va608109 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 17:38:23 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:39:00 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: jkf@time.cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A proposal for focus. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 24-May-98 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> The 'shouting' reflects structural shortcomings of the FreeBSD project. > > I'm afraid I was unable to parse this paragraph at all, sorry. :( I couldn't either. Sorry. An inaccessently ringing phone and some other massive pressure was getting me close to insanity. > What specifically do you see as a shortcoming we could try to rectify? There is an obviously bad relation between the strategy to yield a high level technical quality and the strategies to get it to market. The latter is necessary, since the free software community can't offer several essential tools and applications, e.g. database systems. >> How would you define the 'free software community'. Is Linux still part of >> it > > I'm not really concerned with how Linux categorizes itself right now, > my principle worry being that we're beginning to have an identity > crisis of our own. I agree. > We need to re-focus on the fact that we are, first and foremost, a > free software project which is principally maintained by people who > really like free software and wouldn't even BE here were it not for > that fact. There's a good parable about a goose which lays golden Free software tightly embedded in a not so free since real world. On a more abstract level this is wellknown in the BSD community, is there anyone who could not remember the endless licence style discussions? BTW FreeBSD has a complex licence struture regardless how plain and distinct each of it is. > eggs and its greedy owners cutting it open to get the eggs out faster > which would probably apply here. I'm all for measured progress > towards a series of greater goals, but frankly I'm feeling rather > PUSHED here these days to Go Commercial and I don't like it. I'll do I didn't like the boiling impatience. But I'm certain it reflects actual needs. Currently using FreeBSD implies the need to maintain more installed OSs than reasonable. > it when I'm damn good and ready and not one minute before, thank you > very much. In the meantime, there's a world of promotion to do > strictly within the free software community, promotion which will pay > big dividends later, and we need to be just a little more patient > about it. Many folks say that that linux has about a 3 year lead on > FreeBSD, and it's simply going to take us some time to make that up. Two years ago one, last year two, now three, next... ;-) > They also say that Linux has several million hobbiests who have made > Linux their personal passion and I'd like to be able to say the same > thing for FreeBSD before I even think about commercial ventures. I don't know whether I've really the same vision. FreeBSD might have a slightly different market. One of the most favourable reasons to prefer FreeBSD is its community. People who are able to decide what's technically important, not religiously zealous feature collectors. Linux has other advantages. If a Linux user needs software, he takes a catalogue, fills in an order form, sends it to the supplier and enjoys the delivery including installation support a week later. That's not so bad, too. Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 08:57:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20939 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 08:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20820 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 08:56:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04155; Tue, 26 May 1998 08:56:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805261556.IAA04155@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Martin Cracauer cc: Ted Stein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Braindead FreeBSD advocates (Re: Advocacy Shortcomings) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 May 1998 12:13:04 +0200." <19980526121304.51425@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:56:39 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The debate at slasdot.org was fine . The FreeBSD advocacy was not brilliant however the linux advocay was even worse. The next time an article gets published at slashdot.org just try to follow up with a few good posts. With respect to advocates, basically, the group needs to come up with a few good themes or stories which can be backed up with data. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 09:08:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23722 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 09:08:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23539 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 09:07:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12226; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:07:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <356AE8B6.247A455F@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:07:18 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com CC: Nicole , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business References: <8677.895915412@time.cdrom.com> <19980523132128.D22591@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Josef Grosch wrote: > YES!! we should focus on making FreeBSD _THE_ server OS of choice on a > selected range of hardware. We already are making very good progress in > this area. Pushing FreeBSD as the choice OS for a low-end workstation is > also an area where can get a lot of traction. Agreed - there are some areas of traditional UNIX workstation use where FreeBSD shines. I'm not sure these areas count for enough installations for "the FreeBSD community" to really focus on; this would probably best be left to "value-added partners" who understand these application domains and can prep FreeBSD to be the best workstation system to use in these areas. For instance, the freely available embedded system RTEMS has used SunOS as their preferred development system for quite some time, but many of their users around the world have been seeking a less expensive dev workstation. They were leaning towards Solaris x86, since they already have Solaris included in their toolset, but I've gotten one of their engineers to look at FreeBSD. Since their development tools are GNU- based, FreeBSD is a simple platform to host their tools on; they pretty much compile "out of the box." This opportunity has a chance to get is some pretty good exposure in the embedded development market, RTEMS is gaining fame rapidly. It may also serve to get wider awareness of FreeBSD as a non-realtime embedded OS, the perfect partner to RTEMS for embedded work. So, while I'd like to see the embedded uses of FreeBSD advertised more, I don't think they should take over the group consciousness of the FreeBSD community. As long as the core team focuses on making FreeBSD solid and fast, it will suit the needs of embedded developers, both as a workstation and as an embedded server os, quite nicely. This is also why I reject the "focus on one area" thread running in this list. A better goal would be to form teams around business areas FreeBSD can address, and have sombody coordinate all of these so we have a consistent public "look and feel." It would be nice to get a few marketroids with an interest in FreeBSD involved; their input could be VERY helpful in terms of helping get the message across: "FreeBSD - the power to serve YOUR BUSINESS." ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 11:39:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24361 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 11:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24332 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 11:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11344; Tue, 26 May 1998 12:38:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:38:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Phillip Salzman cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Desktop OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Howdy, On Tue, 26 May 1998, Phillip Salzman wrote: > I read a few messages saying that FreeBSD should stick > to being a robust 'Server OS', but I disagree entirely. I don't think that's been the idea (see Jordan's original "focus" post), but I would agree that ignoring the desktop would be a failure. I, among others I'm sure, use FreeBSD as our desktop. I have NO other operating system around (finally threw out my 286) and I haven't needed one either. Admittedly, I'm working on my PhD in theoretical physics and I use LaTeX and other standard sorts of Unix tools all day long. Clearly secretaries would be swamped by trying to run FBSD wo/ a long break in period and I seriously doubt they'd want to learn *TeX. :-) But, I think FreeBSD CAN make a push to be a good scientific/engineering desktop platform. I know there are a fairly large number (around 10 or so) FreeBSD desktops at Lockheed-Martin in Palo Alto, mostly due to the presence of Brian Handy, who is about to finish his PhD in solar physics. I've gotten my own advisor excited about putting FreeBSD on his ThinkPad and I MAY have convinced the dept computer person to let me turn some old 486's into FreeBSD terminals serving off of what is, for now, a Red Hat PPro machine. Even the dept computer person (I refuse to call what she does sys admin), who's a dyed in the wool Windows person has finally, after much of my badgering, seen the need to have unix workstations available to the graduate and undergraduate students. If we could push science and engineering depts to use FreeBSD on simple, even what might be considered old, computers to use as essentially X-terminalsc we could make a lot of headway. The problem is making it easy for the sys admins, who may and likely are Windows people, to be able to set up and administer the machines. Admittedly, I'm not saying anything new here. I convinced her that the way Red Hat handles package installation (nearly everything goes into /usr/bin - this is what the present Red Hat sys admin told me anyway) is silly. I think the ease of use of CVSup and our ports/package handling is easy enough that she can deal w/ it. One thing that might make it easier for Windows people is a GUI package/port controller. I'd be happy to talk about/work on some coherent plan for pushing FreeBSD as a desktop alternative to Windows/Linux/etc. Anyway, don't abandon the desktop. :-) Brett ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 12:53:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07126 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 12:53:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07043 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 12:52:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12510; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:52:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199805261952.NAA12510@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD coverage on opensource.org In-Reply-To: <19980526160521.63923@cons.org> from Martin Cracauer at "May 26, 98 04:05:21 pm" To: cracauer@cons.org (Martin Cracauer) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Whatever people sent to Eric, it is obviously better than other > FreeBSD advocacy :-) I pretty much started the conversation with Mr. Raymond, and all of the emails I was involved in were very positive. He asked for references to companies doing business with FreeBSD, and was sent several. They were all of the "XXX is using FreeBSD to YYY, because it is stable, high-performance, and unencumbered by license issues..." variety. These messages were carefully and politely written, and I believe Mr. Raymond was justifiably impressed by the glimpse he got of the FreeBSD community. Keep up the good work, mates. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 15:21:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05525 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:21:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05448 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25313; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:21:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Taylor cc: Phillip Salzman , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Desktop OS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 May 1998 12:38:49 MDT." Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:21:53 -0700 Message-ID: <25309.896221313@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'd be happy to talk about/work on some coherent plan for pushing FreeBSD > as a desktop alternative to Windows/Linux/etc. OK, glad to hear it. First on your TODO list will be to work out how to auto-detect the user's video card, mouse and monitor hardware so that we can have a reasonable chance of even GETTING Joe User into X, much less up with a terrific desktop. Until installing and configuring X for maximum performance (e.g. at something better than 640x480x16) is a lot easier than it is now, this will always be an area where we're weak. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 15:21:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05556 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (cerberus.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05502 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:21:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id PAA09345 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:19:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma009331; Tue, 26 May 98 15:18:36 -0700 Message-ID: <356B4014.4ADDE8D5@partsnow.com> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:20:04 -0700 From: Don Wilde Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: print mention Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG EE Times, 5/25/98 (print version, not on EETimes.com yet) p. 60. In a nutshell, the leader of the Synopsis Users Group is suggesting FreeBSD & Linux for the next port of Synopsis' chip s/w. Older mention: http://www.eet.com/column1/wintel20.html -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 15:49:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11469 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11035 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17657; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:47:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:47:50 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Desktop OS In-Reply-To: <25309.896221313@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 26 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'd be happy to talk about/work on some coherent plan for pushing FreeBSD > > as a desktop alternative to Windows/Linux/etc. > > OK, glad to hear it. First on your TODO list will be to work out how > to auto-detect the user's video card, mouse and monitor hardware so > that we can have a reasonable chance of even GETTING Joe User into X, Hehe - okay. In my spare time while working on my thesis and porting useless apps (like kodometer which I'm doing right now) I'll think about this. I will clearly need help. :-) Do any of the Linuces have something like this where they can autodetect this sort of stuff? Maybe we could steal, I mean borrow, from theirs. :-) Brett ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 15:56:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13235 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13192 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25462; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:56:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Taylor cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Desktop OS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 May 1998 16:47:50 MDT." Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:56:48 -0700 Message-ID: <25458.896223408@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Do any of the Linuces have something like this where they can autodetect > this sort of stuff? Maybe we could steal, I mean borrow, from theirs. > :-) The TurboLinux folks evidently have something that will run SuperProbe through a pipe and sort of intuit what card the user must have from the output, but there's that slight niggling problem with SuperProbe also crashing a fair number of systems (hard) when run, so I'm not sure that's a good solution. A truly good solution has pretty much defied everyone who's tackled it so far or it would have been done already, and in the meantime we continue to field "how do I setup X?" as our #1 tech support question at Walnut Creek CDROM. :-( For the record, we've also offered the XFree86 Project not-unsubstantial sums of money to work on this one, but their problem is much the same as ours - more money than truly skilled people available to spend it on. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 16:13:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17410 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17233 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28295; Tue, 26 May 1998 17:12:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:12:34 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Desktop OS In-Reply-To: <25458.896223408@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > A truly good solution has pretty much defied everyone who's tackled it > so far or it would have been done already, and in the meantime we > continue to field "how do I setup X?" as our #1 tech support question > at Walnut Creek CDROM. :-( How did I know this was the answer? :-) I would say that I get "how do I setup X" just about as often as "I can't find 'blah' in my path - what's wrong?" I've had people want to completely reinstall X when they change monitors. :-) > For the record, we've also offered the XFree86 Project > not-unsubstantial sums of money to work on this one, but their problem > is much the same as ours - more money than truly skilled people > available to spend it on. That was going to be my next suggestion.... sigh. Brett ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 17:14:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27357 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 17:14:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@huron.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27153 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 17:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA17045; Tue, 26 May 1998 20:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:13:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Amancio Hasty cc: Martin Cracauer , Ted Stein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Braindead FreeBSD advocates (Re: Advocacy Shortcomings) In-Reply-To: <199805261556.IAA04155@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 26 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > With respect to advocates, basically, the group needs to come up with a > few good themes or stories which can be backed up with data. Hear! Hear! Some fresh stories would definitely be nice. While beating the walnut creek, yahoo!, snarnoff labs drums does make a pretty and compelling sound, some new success stories that make people sit up and listen aresorely needed, at least on my part. Also firmer numbers where possible would be nice. (Yeah, I know we all want better numbers.) Are there any other impressive services using FreeBSD we can tout as examples of FreeBSD's capabilities? So far some people I have described your voice-mail system to have definitely had their intrests piqued. It sounds like a server oriented application that could be in tune with FreeBSD's other success stories. If we can get any of these written down, even better. I try to keep a copy of the FreeBSD news letters, #1 and now #2, somewhere visible at my desk. If they catch someone's eye, I give them a copy and run off another copy on our color printer. I guess for such tailored stories though, we have to decide upon our audience. Some people react better to my explaniation to devfs and layered filesystems than they do to network through put. My guess is that the tone should be directed a technical managers and their like. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 18:32:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09144 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09051 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21827; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980526213211.59110@cheddar.netmonger.net> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:32:11 -0400 From: Ted Stein To: Amancio Hasty Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, mtr@eclipse.net Subject: Re: Braindead FreeBSD advocates (Re: Advocacy Shortcomings) References: <19980526121304.51425@cons.org> <199805261556.IAA04155@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199805261556.IAA04155@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Tue, May 26, 1998 at 08:56:39AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cheddar.netmonger.net 2.2.6-STABLE i386 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 26, 1998 at 08:56:39AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > The debate at slasdot.org was fine . The FreeBSD advocacy was not > brilliant however the linux advocay was even worse. > Not even close. Read through it again. It was terrible. If I need to privately name the people for you and you reread their posts, you'll see. > The next time an article gets published at slashdot.org just try > to follow up with a few good posts. > I certainly did, and I hoped alerting -advocacy of it would allow for some input from us. -- Ted Stein ted@taki.net CGI/Backend taki solutions, inc. http://www.taki.net PGP available upon request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 19:26:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19819 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19810 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:26:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-9.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.58]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA19692 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:25:56 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980526193050.0069c08c@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:30:50 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Hardware Partners ad Advocates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was wondering... What would it take to get hardware companies like Dell, Gateway, and Micron to sell their server products with FreeBSD installed (or just on a cd for the customer to install) instead of Windows NT? What comes into play with trying to do that? Prove that FreeBSD is worthy? Or are those hardware vendors afraid that Microsoft would retaliate? (I'm not sure up on the MS vs. DOJ subject) How much trouble would it be for them to have FreeBSD as on option? (I'm sure they can possibly have other options as well - BSDi, Linux, Solarix x86) Anyways, I was just wondering. Any comments, opinions, or answers? Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 19:42:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22300 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:42:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22157 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:41:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06625; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:41:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805270241.TAA06625@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Ted Stein cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, mtr@eclipse.net Subject: Re: Braindead FreeBSD advocates (Re: Advocacy Shortcomings) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 May 1998 21:32:11 EDT." <19980526213211.59110@cheddar.netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:41:19 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You don't need to repost any of it or name any individuals and I still say it was not that bad -- it depends on your interpretation or if you can can deeper than why an ex-linux user swears that FreeBSD is the best thing since creation -- my interpretation is that at the time he had such a bad experience with linux that has no desired to go back. Also please note that the linux fanatics did not like one bit a taste of their advocacy and they naturally responded with they same brainded advocacy they are accustomed. Again if this groups formulates or gathers good stories it will make advocacy an easier task . Amancio > On Tue, May 26, 1998 at 08:56:39AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > The debate at slasdot.org was fine . The FreeBSD advocacy was not > > brilliant however the linux advocay was even worse. > > > > Not even close. Read through it again. It was terrible. If I need to privately > name the people for you and you reread their posts, you'll see. > > > The next time an article gets published at slashdot.org just try > > to follow up with a few good posts. > > > > I certainly did, and I hoped alerting -advocacy of it would allow for some input > from us. > -- > Ted Stein ted@taki.net > CGI/Backend taki solutions, inc. > http://www.taki.net PGP available upon request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 19:57:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25399 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA25340 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:57:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 4131 invoked by uid 24); 27 May 1998 02:57:09 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980526200446.007f0bf0@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:04:46 -0700 To: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3626-Sat23May1998005302-0400-kriston@ibm.net> References: <199805230337.UAA02883@osprey.grizzly.com> <01bd85e0$2dccb1c0$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> <199805230337.UAA02883@osprey.grizzly.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Mark Diekhans writes: >> >> o A port of Netscape enterprise server would be a plus. Apache is >> good, but there is a perceived need for a threaded server for >> scalability. Maybe more preception than reality. About half and half. Right now we're trying to finish up 1.3 so we can move on to 2.0 work, which where we will be doing threading, and right now the most attractive approach is looking like it'll be to base Apache on top of Netscape's "NSPR" runtime, a cross-platform library for threading, I/O, and most everything else you'd ever need to make a system call for. It's been ported across a huge number of OSes and is part of the Mozilla distribution, and also under (in our opinion) a really good license. Threading will allow the server to handle a greater number of connections given a fixed amount of memory; and it will make it easier to link to a multithreaded library for something like Java. But other than that it's not clear that threads will be a huge significant win over the multiprocess model; and it will definitely increase the potential for instability. Today, if you have bad code in your server module, the connection which triggers a bug causing a core dump only affects a single connection. If the server's multithreaded, the whole thing comes crashing down. Not pretty! Sure, there are things like kernels that run forever without a problem, but most people don't hack their kernels as much as they hack their web servers. Someone in the group already has a test implementation of Apache on NSPR. It's not complete, a lot of things are broken, but it's looking very promising. >With just user-level threads, this isn't going to buy you much. But >that's okay because almost nobody buys multiprocessor Pentium systems >at this moment, so you'll get efficient use of resources in the web >server process. That will change and it would help to have >kernel-level threads to take advantage of the extra processor(s) if >that web server were threaded; until then fork/exec is better for >multiprocessor systems -- at least the way I understand it. Oh yeah, another thing - we may address the stability problem by having an "N by M" model, where there are multiple multithreaded server daemons for robustness. We have to do a bunch of benchmarks to see what ends up being optimal. Final thought - some of us in the group really want to go in the direction of building a very very simple HTTP handling engine in the kernel; all it would do is simple URL->filesystem mapping and file serving, maybe with a configurably-sizeable MMAP cache for optimization. It would pop requests up to userland for anything remotely complex, like SSI's, CGI's, or anything on the other side of the Apache API. Any good kernel hackers want to help us architect this? It'd be nice to find a genral architecture so we could build kernel modules for Linux, Solaris, and other OS's where this would be a Good Thing. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- pure chewing satisfaction brian@apache.org brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 20:00:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26137 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 20:00:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26118 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 20:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23687; Tue, 26 May 1998 23:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980526230016.03001@cheddar.netmonger.net> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:00:16 -0400 From: Ted Stein To: Amancio Hasty Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Braindead FreeBSD advocates (Re: Advocacy Shortcomings) References: <19980526213211.59110@cheddar.netmonger.net> <199805270241.TAA06625@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199805270241.TAA06625@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Tue, May 26, 1998 at 07:41:19PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cheddar.netmonger.net 2.2.6-STABLE i386 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 26, 1998 at 07:41:19PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Also please note that the linux fanatics > did not like one bit a taste of their advocacy and they naturally > responded with they same brainded advocacy they are accustomed. > Generally speaking, as bad as Linux advocacy is, our doing the same doesn't do too much good for us. If they don't like a taste of their own medicine, fine, but we don't like it either, which is why we shouldn't practice it regardless of the circumstances. -- Ted Stein ted@taki.net CGI/Backend taki solutions, inc. http://www.taki.net PGP available upon request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 22:02:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23267 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 22:02:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22599 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26901; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Joey Garcia cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 May 1998 19:30:50 PDT." <3.0.1.32.19980526193050.0069c08c@pacificnet.net> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:59:49 -0700 Message-ID: <26897.896245189@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I was wondering... What would it take to get hardware companies like Dell, > Gateway, and Micron to sell their server products with FreeBSD installed > (or just on a cd for the customer to install) instead of Windows NT? What An act of god. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 22:35:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00906 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 22:35:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (dub034.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00791 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 22:34:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA04132 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 15:37:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980527153749.0087f4f0@mail.pronet.net.au> X-Sender: freebsd@mail.pronet.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:37:49 +1000 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980526193050.0069c08c@pacificnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:30 PM 26/05/1998 -0700, you wrote: > >I was wondering... What would it take to get hardware companies like Dell, >Gateway, and Micron to sell their server products with FreeBSD installed >(or just on a cd for the customer to install) instead of Windows NT? Novell,Sun,BSDI,etc. etc. >What comes into play with trying to do that? packaged application/server software >Prove that FreeBSD is worthy? freebsd doesn't have any supporting mechanisms > Or are those hardware vendors afraid that Microsoft would retaliate? Of course, Dell etc. would loose their discount, as an example, most MS bundles come with a 200-300% markup, software is only books and cd's, hardware markups are usually 20% for those big companies, oh and the MS marketing machine, the biggest in the industry, that tells you to buy a new machine/upgrade every year, which suits dell fine. >(I'm not >sure up on the MS vs. DOJ subject) How much trouble would it be for them >to have FreeBSD as on option? You could apply for a marketing job at Dell :P >(I'm sure they can possibly have other >options as well - BSDi, Linux, Solarix x86) Anyways, I was just wondering. > Any comments, opinions, or answers? > > >Joey Garcia > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 26 22:35:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00988 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 22:35:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00903 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 22:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00712; Tue, 26 May 1998 22:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805270535.WAA00712@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Joey Garcia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 May 1998 21:59:49 PDT." <26897.896245189@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:35:17 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I was wondering... What would it take to get hardware companies like Dell, > > Gateway, and Micron to sell their server products with FreeBSD installed > > (or just on a cd for the customer to install) instead of Windows NT? What > > An act of god. > Or an Act from the DOJ 8) Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 27 00:50:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25718 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 00:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA25630 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 00:49:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id JAA12046; Wed, 27 May 1998 09:49:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980527094956.00484@cons.org> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:49:56 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Amancio Hasty , Martin Cracauer Cc: Ted Stein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Braindead FreeBSD advocates (Re: Advocacy Shortcomings) References: <19980526121304.51425@cons.org> <199805261556.IAA04155@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805261556.IAA04155@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Tue, May 26, 1998 at 08:56:39AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In <199805261556.IAA04155@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty wrote: > The debate at slasdot.org was fine . The FreeBSD advocacy was not > brilliant however the linux advocay was even worse. Well, from a certain standpoint the FreeBSD votes may have been reasonable in that their fought the Linux folks with their own weapons (at least the weapons they use in non-linux dominated forums). However, I think the FreeBSD folks have to do better as they fight from an inferior position. Unreasonable FreeBSD advocacy hurts more than unreasonable Linux advocacy. > The next time an article gets published at slashdot.org just try > to follow up with a few good posts. Tried to do so. > With respect to advocates, basically, the group needs to come up with a > few good themes or stories which can be backed up with data. One thing I'd really like is a down-to-metal explanation of the (a)sync metadata issue. Describe exactly under what circumstances the typical Linux filesystem is in a state that will loose files or the whole filesystem. Theo De Raadt came up with a good example: A simple rename(2)/mv(1) is usualy thought to be an operation that can't lose the file. Not so on Linux. Explanation in my (half-baken) words: Since metadata is async and writes are completely unsorted, about half of the rename operations have an intermediate state where the old filename is deleted but the new one isn't in place. Since Linux also doesn't have any contraints about the chunks written out, allocatition and connection of the new name may also happen an arbitrary long time after loosing the old name. If your system crashes within that time, you still have the data blocks and the indoe, but you'll the data unnamed in lost+found. The latter also concerns the quality of Linux fsck, which I'm not sure about, maybe the file gets lost completely. I'm not sure I understand enough of the issue to make a bullet-proof webpage with some diagrams. This requires reading quite a lot of Linux kernel/fsck/mkext2fs code. For FreeBSD, I also noted that the comments in the 4.4BSD book about metadata synchronisation don't meet reality in FreeBSD. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 27 01:32:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04012 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 01:32:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw5.pacbell.net (mail-gw5.pacbell.net [206.13.28.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03765 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 01:31:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-110.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.110]) by mail-gw5.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id BAA21992; Wed, 27 May 1998 01:31:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: , "phil" Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 01:16:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8947$c80b29a0$d920aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>I was wondering... What would it take to get hardware companies like Dell, >>Gateway, and Micron to sell their server products with FreeBSD installed >>(or just on a cd for the customer to install) instead of Windows NT? > >Novell,Sun,BSDI,etc. etc. 50-200k minimum volume commitment. /month? gateway would probably be the best bet. (gtw; 7B) >>What comes into play with trying to do that? > >packaged application/server software just the fully installed with office suite OS working correctly. >> Or are those hardware vendors afraid that Microsoft would retaliate? > >Of course, Dell etc. would loose their discount, but this is what MS really can't do now. >>(I'm not >>sure up on the MS vs. DOJ subject) How much trouble would it be for them >>to have FreeBSD as on option? this would cost 50-200k to start. that's a lot of `39.95'. does any big box vendor offer linux as an option? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 27 03:05:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA21626 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 03:05:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main_sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.75.26.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA21594 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 03:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di18hh.bonline.net (di18hh.bonline.net [194.75.27.146]) by main_sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id va610631 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 12:04:18 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199805270535.WAA00712@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:05:00 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Joey Garcia , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-May-98 Amancio Hasty wrote: >> > I was wondering... What would it take to get hardware companies like >> > Dell, >> > Gateway, and Micron to sell their server products with FreeBSD installed >> > (or just on a cd for the customer to install) instead of Windows NT? What >> >> An act of god. >> > > Or an Act from the DOJ 8) > > Amancio Maybe neither, if one wouldn't ask the companies but their retailers and those could rely on classical, technical support. Even a simple FreeBSD/OEM CDROM priced at $10 could be successful. Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 27 03:12:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22873 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 03:12:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main_sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.75.26.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA22866 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 03:11:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di08hh.bonline.net (di08hh.bonline.net [194.75.27.136]) by main_sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id ga610668 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 12:11:00 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01bd8947$c80b29a0$d920aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:11:42 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: Jack Velte Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates Cc: phil , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-May-98 Jack Velte wrote: >>>sure up on the MS vs. DOJ subject) How much trouble would it be for them >>>to have FreeBSD as on option? > > this would cost 50-200k to start. that's a lot of `39.95'. > > does any big box vendor offer linux as an option? At least I've seen some of them having certified their boxes as 'Linux compatible'. Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 27 07:48:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12144 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 07:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12124 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 07:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-62.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.62]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA128112; Wed, 27 May 1998 14:47:56 GMT Message-ID: <356C273D.F7A21AB3@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:46:21 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates References: <3.0.1.32.19980526193050.0069c08c@pacificnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't know the answer to your question, Joey, but I sure do know of one Dell salesman who's really disappointed at losing a $20,000 order because his RAID controller manufacturer wouldn't play ball with us. Dell corporate has too much invested in the Wintel money machine. They will not switch. Our chances would be better with an Acer or -- better yet -- a Japanese manufacturer who we could get our Japan FreeBSD advocates to help us with. ALR or AST, maybe? They have server-class hardware, and Japanese investment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 27 09:15:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00678 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 09:15:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00610 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 09:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA14111; Wed, 27 May 1998 17:09:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <356C3B12.F8BA4024@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:10:58 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Brett Taylor , Phillip Salzman , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Desktop OS References: <25309.896221313@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > OK, glad to hear it. First on your TODO list will be to work out how > to auto-detect the user's video card, mouse and monitor hardware so > that we can have a reasonable chance of even GETTING Joe User into X, > much less up with a terrific desktop. I haven't got any suggestions for mouse (other than use 'protocol "auto"' in the XF config file or use /dev/sysmouse and moused), although that probably is much less of a problem the video cards. A keycommand in XF86Setup to cycle through the popular mouse types and ports would make things easier, for most people looking at /dev/sysmouse, /dev/cuaa* with MS then Mouse Systems, /dev/psm0 and /dev/mse0 if enabled with relevant protocols etc.etc. 'if your mouse works properly then click here [ ] otherwise press space and try again' Maybe something can be done with OpenBSD's pcvt which detects at least some video cards - presumably it must be quite stable as it's in the standard bootup sequence. Perhaps with a lookup against a database for the preferred X server? Do many people installing FBSD really not know what type of video card they have? I think it's more of a problem to know exactly what card it is and it still wedges the system solid when you try to start in 24bpp mode which happens on a few occasions :-] There is already a database of monitor capabilities in /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/doc/Monitors but XF86Setup doesn't know about it. It would be nicer if it worked like the video card selection screen that's already there, that would be relevant to all XFree users not just FreeBSD one though, so fixes like this need to go into the base X distribution.. Putting Greg's desktop setup scripts (on the cdrom) onto the ftp site and drawing attention to them (handbook/FAQ) might be nice, I remember having trouble finding the correct file to exec the window manager from when I installed it. I'm sure many people will miss them on the CD. Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 27 18:42:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28057 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:42:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28039 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:42:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-43.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.92]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA03156; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:41:23 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980527184614.0069bbdc@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:46:14 -0700 To: dwilde1@ibm.net From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <356C273D.F7A21AB3@ibm.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980526193050.0069c08c@pacificnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:46 AM 5/27/98 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: >I don't know the answer to your question, Joey, but I sure do know of >one Dell salesman who's really disappointed at losing a $20,000 order >because his RAID controller manufacturer wouldn't play ball with us. > Us? As in your or the FreeBSD world? That's kind of interesting to hear though. The way I see it...those "big box" companies really wouldn't be losing much considering that they can pirate their own FreeBSD cd's (sort of like how CheapBytes does it, but different) then install it on compatible hardware...build a custom kernel for their hardware and server purposes...and BAM!!....you got a "big box" FreeBSD server. All the money that would go to MS for licenses can be saved, or used to market their new FreeBSD servers. Ah hell, even if it's not FreeBSD exclusively...there are commercial OS's out their that can kick NT's ass anyday...like BSDi and Solaris. They're commercial and they run on Intel. If people ask, "Why can't I run 2 pentiums?" We just tell them that Unix is designed so well that it doesn't need it. :) I don't know....that's just the way I see it and apparently, they don't see it my way. Maybe my way isn't feasable? Maybe my way is more costly? *shrug* >Dell corporate has too much invested in the Wintel money machine. They >will not switch. Our chances would be better with an Acer or -- better >yet -- a Japanese manufacturer who we could get our Japan FreeBSD >advocates to help us with. ALR or AST, maybe? They have server-class >hardware, and Japanese investment. When I used to go to UCI (and I keep asking myself why I dropped out), they used to have *ALOT* of AST machines. They kicked the Mac machines butt any day. That was back before the Pentium craze started, when 486's rulled the world. hehehe Didn't AST go out of business, or they lost alot of money or something? I heard some rumors along time ago about that. I heard that AST made all their own hardware. Is that true still (or was it ever true)? It would be interesting to see major computer vendors to promote Intel Unix on their server products. Would be interesting indeed. :) Talk to ya later, Joey > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 27 18:51:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29339 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:51:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from transbay.net (mail.transbay.net [207.105.6.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29286 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bh@transbay.net) Received: from localhost (bh@localhost) by transbay.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA12010; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:54:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Brandon Huey To: Joey Garcia cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980527184614.0069bbdc@pacificnet.net> Message-ID: X-Copyright: (C)1998 Brandon Huey; Forwarding prohibited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Why did you need to go with the stock RAID cntrl at all? We order PowerEdge's and simply drop the cntrlr from the order and use DPT... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 27 20:06:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13165 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:06:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13098 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:05:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08228; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:05:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Joey Garcia cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware Partners ad Advocates In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 May 1998 18:46:14 PDT." <3.0.1.32.19980527184614.0069bbdc@pacificnet.net> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:05:54 -0700 Message-ID: <8224.896324754@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I don't know....that's just the way I see it and apparently, they don't see > it my way. Maybe my way isn't feasable? Maybe my way is more costly? > *shrug* Consider the question of follow-on technical support. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 29 02:22:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21353 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 02:22:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw5.pacbell.net (mail-gw5.pacbell.net [206.13.28.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21267 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 02:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-218.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.218]) by mail-gw5.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id CAA10540 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 02:22:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 02:14:08 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8ae2$22cacd00$da01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG notFreeBSD, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 29 12:41:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20489 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20349; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:40:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18134; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:40:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199805291940.NAA18134@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Another FreeBSD commercial vendor To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:40:26 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was thumbing through a recent copy of _Linux Journal_ this afternoon and spotted an ad for CCVS, a credit card verification application, that runs on FreeBSD. The vendor, HKS Inc., does not appear on the Vendors page. Would somebody officially related to FreeBSD like to contact them? (Jordan?) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 29 13:57:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00857 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:57:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAB00784 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:57:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02856; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another FreeBSD commercial vendor In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 May 1998 13:40:26 MDT." <199805291940.NAA18134@obie.softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:55:52 -0700 Message-ID: <2852.896475352@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't mind, but just to note that there's really no need to punt this all the way up to me - very often it's the users who are most effective in tracking folks like this down, emailing them and suggesting that they send an add to www@freebsd.org. You don't have to be officially related to FreeBSD to do this at all. :-) - Jordan > I was thumbing through a recent copy of _Linux Journal_ this > afternoon and spotted an ad for CCVS, a credit card verification > application, that runs on FreeBSD. The vendor, HKS Inc., does not > appear on the Vendors page. Would somebody officially related to > FreeBSD like to contact them? (Jordan?) > > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 29 17:57:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15531 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 17:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw5.pacbell.net (mail-gw5.pacbell.net [206.13.28.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15522 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 17:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-110.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.110]) by mail-gw5.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id RAA20825; Fri, 29 May 1998 17:56:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Wes Peters" , Subject: Re: Another FreeBSD commercial vendor Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:44:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8b64$1fbe5640$da01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----Original Message----- From: Wes Peters Subject: Another FreeBSD commercial vendor >I was thumbing through a recent copy of _Linux Journal_ this >afternoon and spotted an ad for CCVS, a credit card verification >application, that runs on FreeBSD. The vendor, HKS Inc., does not >appear on the Vendors page. Would somebody officially related to >FreeBSD like to contact them? (Jordan?) linux journal? :-) should someone appoint themselves marketing director or press spokesperson? is jordan really ceo and cto and press spokesperson and project manager? would a web form on freebsd.org that an interested third party could email a prospective new alliance be helpful for random marketing? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 29 21:13:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14148 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 21:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14131; Fri, 29 May 1998 21:12:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18796; Fri, 29 May 1998 22:12:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <356F872E.5B0465C2@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:12:30 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Velte CC: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another FreeBSD commercial vendor References: <01bd8b64$1fbe5640$da01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This afternoon, I blathered: % I was thumbing through a recent copy of _Linux Journal_ this % afternoon and spotted an ad for CCVS, a credit card verification % application, that runs on FreeBSD. The vendor, HKS Inc., does not % appear on the Vendors page. Would somebody officially related to % FreeBSD like to contact them? (Jordan?) Jack Velte wrote: > linux journal? :-) OK, OK, it belongs to a coworker who is a Linux-head. I needed something for the afternoon visit to the 'porcelain library', OK? ;^) > should someone appoint themselves marketing director or > press spokesperson? is jordan really ceo and cto and press > spokesperson and project manager? Or perhaps, as Jordan suggested, just handle it individually. It's a FREE project, perhaps we don't really need anyone "official" to contact them. As far as that goes, as a member of freebsd-advocacy, I guess I *AM* a FreeBSD marketing contact. ;^) > would a web form on freebsd.org that an interested third > party could email a prospective new alliance be helpful > for random marketing? Yup, that'd be great. Is the form to submit a contact working at this point? It's been so long since I signed up, I can't remember how I did it. (or who ties who up...) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 30 20:29:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22237 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 20:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22150; Sat, 30 May 1998 20:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-29-76.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.76]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id UAA13043; Sat, 30 May 1998 20:26:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Cc: "David Greenman" , "Justin T. Gibbs" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Subject: notFreeBSD plan, v 4 Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 20:11:59 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8c41$e0262100$4a1daace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG the attachment is a probably better formatted version of this. removal of this copyright notice is prohibited. if you find this of use, $200 cash or $500 zero coupon bond (post dated check) is requested. authorized firms $10k. professional entities required. trademarks implied. redistribution encouraged.* resistance is futile. (c) sandy king 1998 notFreeBSD, Inc BUSINESS PLAN May 29, 1998, V4 "To produce the best possible software at the lowest possible price while making stakeholders rich." PRICING - free on the net $39.95 - limited support 139.95 - some support and free stuff - boxed product. 789.95 - 24 hr, international support that's very good. /year. on site with negotiated expenses paid. 10k - commercial server Two revenue streams -- revisions/customizations and service. for the revision part of the stream, MS can't have a monopoly on Personal Computer OS's. ALLIANCES 1) COREL: Michael Cowpland, Canada. 0% market share that once owned Unix. this is the only ms office competitor i can think of. their market cap went from nothing to by some values (other companies write offs, Unix(r) and WordPerfect) huge (1.5B and back almost to nothing. (144M) 2) APPLE: Steve Jobs, is struggling for 3% market share also. the legal tactic would benefit them more. Steve Jobs used to run a Unix company worth $400M. (3.7B) 3) GATEWAY: Director, Amiga operating system. (7.1B) 4) IBM: President, OS/2 operating system. (115B) 5) Netscape. stage 3 merger candidate. 6) Tim O'Reilly, O'Reilly & Associates, Freeware advocate. 7) John Ousterhout, Scriptics Corp, Freeware advocate. GNU? x? COMPENSATION STRUCTURE: contribution metrics: * # emails on list, exponentially decreasing average. * # & length (outside of comments) emails on list, exponentially decreasing average. * lines of source code, minus symbol only lines. * core team members. * popular vote, clicking on the web. * others yet devised. the metrics are fractal averaged and applied to shareholders equal to their contribution. money is split in two, 1/2 to staff and 1/2 to monetary shareholders, after expenses of running the operation. there needs to be a board of directors that watches this. [this section needs work, exactly how the money is going to be split between monetary contributors and labor contributors.] MARKETING * volunteers rack-job copies of Greg Lehey's book to bookstores. * cheapest click ads (illegal to advertise DPO). * sandy king wants to be multimedia spokesmodel. "FreeBSD should have a good looking woman as their spokesmodel." FISCAL Projected Revenue: 3% market share 100M users (100M is low -- MS is in Chinese offices too.) = 3M users. 3% buy the expensive package. = 90k x $700 / year = $72M. xx% buy the cheap package. = 3M x $30 = $90M ------------------------------------------ ~= 50 M for each release and 50 M per year. future: there are about 5B people on the world, and probably half of them will want a computer. *everything* else is free. except tshirts and books. ORGANIZATION: CEO reports to CTO. FINANCING: stage 0 cash float float float float float flow released for sale total public reserve ($5k) 0% 0 (50M) (20M) 50M * Articles of Incorporation. * Board of Directors, 5 to 7. * legal corporation with 50M shares. --- DPO "We need your money for: service organization and internal product marketing & sales. Click here." stage 1 - DPO - Direct Public Offering cash float float float float float flow released for sale total public reserve $1 x 5M 20% 5M 10M 5M 40M "10M shares released for money and Past contribution." $ accountant $ secretaries $ IP lawyer - joe siino $ sales manager - chris bura - payment for services from Public float fund. stage 2 - organization building cash float float float float float flow released for sale total public reserve $2 x 5M 20% 5M 20M 10M 30M "10M shares released for Current contributions." this needs a defining limit: income: internal cash flow. $ programmers $ sales force --- IPO "We need the money for: global product launch." stage 3 - IPO cash float float float float float flow released for sale total public reserve $8 x 10M 40% 10M 40M 20M 10M $ marketing $ lawyers (it would be better if we didn't need them by this time. stage N - running corporation, 3% market share cash float float float float float flow released for sale total public reserve 50M + 50M/ 0 0 50M 20M ? "product development and service." 100M yearly revenue. 40M shares @ $8 share = 320M market cap. (somewhere else i guessed the market value of the enterprise at 400M.) with a fancy investment banking firm (D H Blair) you can issue warrants instead of common stock to obscure the dilution issues. this is still a small cap company. * the company should have no year-end profit, except what is needed for business cycle downturns and projected investments. save with financial instruments in other small hitech companies. SALARIES 250 125 65 35 single parents jump up one level. no-one should be at a level if the lower orbital isn't full. outside staff has preference over inside staff. everyone can buy shares. salaries should jump between levels. excess corporate income is distributed to labor stakeholders. 30 hour work week. on-site day care. free food and shelter and toys. if i thought i could earn $250k/year as low pressure coder and tech support helper in exotic locations, i'd share my source code. PRESS Releases (Business Wire - $50) accusing MS of damaging us. The MS analysts will read them. carefully. LEGAL as long as one ap doesn't run on a system, you'll have about 0% of the general office market. so either the shim into the OS has to be PD or the whole OS. free windows 98. -FreeBSD. the UI and OS can be separate. it is on FreeBSD. FreeBSD is a vastly superior OS. the UI is ok, too, but the ap's don't run. the windows 98 OS should be separated from the rest of ms, however gates wants to cut it with approval from the people at ms that want to work on that team. after cutting it, he should be free to compete against win 98. force Bill Gates to restate earnings, almost no matter which way. From: Ben Cohen Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... How about forcing MS to release their OS source code? Perhaps under a license such as the Berkeley one or, I think more realistically, something more like GPL. CVS tree. --- [the entire MS strategy can be deleted from the first public version of the business plan and the plan needs adjusting but it would still be acceptable to the investment community.] ------------------------------------------------------- misc notes ------------------------------------------------------- Jordan: >Technical Support Infrastructure: 24 hr triage center staffed by someone that can answer many questions. this can be set up as a virtual network out of some small central office. then flowchart to logged in volunteers -- they know the pay scale ahead of time. we pay for phone service. ? in africa. then more dispatch to on-call specialists. volunteer queue of people in places willing to travel all expenses paid. Jordan: >how to even word the support contracts so that neither customer nor >company is left unduly exposed: "we take no responsibility for your system. we will do our dangest to rectify your issue, but our development team takes no orders. we will stand behind our money-back guarantee as last resort." [instead of `dangest', a word like `best' is fodder for lawsuits.] maybe modeled on something IBM would have written, but with 97% edited out. there should be a section about alliances with Dell or Gateway supplying preconfigured FreeBSD boxes. i'd love to see a Gateway ad on TV saying, "This is what Yahoo runs: FreeBSD. order your own for $2295." -------------------- NEEDED: email addresses of: steve jobs, apple os/2 president amiga director Cowpland, Corel states attorney generals general counsel, MS federal prosecution To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 30 22:27:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05429 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 22:27:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05396; Sat, 30 May 1998 22:27:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA17428; Sun, 31 May 1998 01:21:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:21:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Jack Velte cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: notFreeBSD plan, v 4 In-Reply-To: <01bd8c41$e0262100$4a1daace@eliot.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 30 May 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > contribution metrics: > * # emails on list, exponentially decreasing average. > * # & length (outside of comments) emails on list, > exponentially decreasing average. > * lines of source code, minus symbol only lines. > * core team members. > * popular vote, clicking on the web. Egads! None of those could work. Among other things, we strive to minimize source code size, and the mailing-lists already suffer from too much mail. > "To produce the best possible software at the lowest possible price > while making stakeholders rich." I think a slightly fundamental problem is that too many people here do not share your vision. If they (we) were interested in $$$, better ways to make $$$ than throwing away many hours into a volunteer project would have long-ago been found. Perhaps that's the "problem" with developing a philosophy for FreeBSD. MS, for example, can simply state their mission as `to dominate the desktop', or whatever. They then unite behind this. The reasons for the existance of FreeBSD are much much more varied and too complex to allow a simple mission statement. Consider the range from the dedicated researcher-advocate (a-la Terry Lambert) to those under corporate influence (a-la the guy from Sun interested in porting FreeBSD to whatever non-Intel architecture (my memory ability varies inversely with the hour, so excuse my here :)) to the young kid hacker who just wants to know what makes his computer go (or whatever sound he hears it making). -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 30 23:21:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11294 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 23:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11276; Sat, 30 May 1998 23:21:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-29-76.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.76]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id XAA19045; Sat, 30 May 1998 23:20:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" Cc: , Subject: Re: notFreeBSD plan, v 4 Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 23:15:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8c5b$78bff300$4a1daace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG i forgot, please follow up to freebsd-advocacy. thanks, -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 30 23:32:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11935 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 23:32:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11922 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 23:32:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-29-76.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.76]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id XAA20488; Sat, 30 May 1998 23:31:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Tim Vanderhoek" Cc: Subject: Re: notFreeBSD plan, v 4 Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 23:23:27 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8c5c$9f4c4ea0$4a1daace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >On Sat, 30 May 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > >> contribution metrics: >> * # emails on list, exponentially decreasing average. >> * # & length (outside of comments) emails on list, >> exponentially decreasing average. >> * lines of source code, minus symbol only lines. >> * core team members. >> * popular vote, clicking on the web. > >Egads! None of those could work. > >Among other things, we strive to minimize source code size, and >the mailing-lists already suffer from too much mail. of course. but some metrics would need to be developed to measure a contributors contribution. a combination of metrics averaged together would provide a passable measure. it's a *decreasing* average, so more messages don't help. it could even be a standard deviation around the mean number of messages per contributor with the highest score for people close to the mean. whatever -- the point is to acknowledge contribution. >> "To produce the best possible software at the lowest possible price >> while making stakeholders rich." > >I think a slightly fundamental problem is that too many people >here do not share your vision. If they (we) were interested in read only the first part. that IS the vision of the freebsd group. i believe that most of them would welcome an income from their efforts if it didn't conflict with the first half of the statement. >$$$, better ways to make $$$ than throwing away many hours into a >volunteer project would have long-ago been found. i know, there are many volunteer projects. it would be neat if this one could morph into a commercial venture that was acceptable to the project community. >Perhaps that's the "problem" with developing a philosophy for >FreeBSD. MS, for example, can simply state their mission as `to >dominate the desktop', or whatever. They then unite behind this. >The reasons for the existance of FreeBSD are much much more >varied and too complex to allow a simple mission statement. the more complex the mission statement, the harder it is to follow it -- the less likely people take it seriously. this is my attempt -- what would you propose? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message