From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 02:11:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28098 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@206-18-112-183.la.inreach.net [206.18.112.183]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA28092 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:11:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@colossus.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id CAA03362; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:10:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19976.901207980@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Computer Help From: Donald Burr To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: RE: Surplus 2.2.6 CDs available for promotional purposes. Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My secret spy satellite informs me that on 23-Jul-98, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > [...2.2.6 CD's available...] This is a godsend! :) I've been doing some advocacy work, and making my own FreeBSD CD's... but even with cheap computer-show CD-R media, this is still a fairly significant expense (not to mention a lot of work and tying up my machine :) ) There are some big-time advocacy projects that I would like to initiate, but could not do that until now (because of the above issues). With these CD's, I'd have all the ammunition I need to go in fighting. Anyway, here's the info you asked for: 1. 100 CD's should cover my needs. 2. If you will be mailing by U.S. Postal mail, please use Address #1, as this is the address I receive mail at. But if you will be using UPS, FedEx, etc., please use Address #2, since P.O. Boxes do not accept non-USPS deliveries. Address #1: Donald Burr P.O. Box 91212 Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 Address #2: Donald Burr 1610 De La Vina St., #8 Santa Barbara, CA 93101 3. Here's how i plan on using these. a. In the near future (the actual date is still being worked out), I'll be doing a demonstration to our PC User's Group, on FreeBSD. Having some *free* CD's to hand out at the show (plus information flyers that I'll be slapping together) would be real nice. b. I'll also be doing a presentation to my school's Computer Club, on the same subject. c. Our school currently uses Linux for its "intro to UNIX" class. I would like to remedy this. :) To wit, I'd like to hand out copies to the instructors, department heads, maybe some students, and I'll probably end up doing a demonstration for the school bigwigs. d. My friend owns a computer store (one of those "mom and pop" type outfits), that handles a LOT of "big business" clients (local universities, corporations, etc.). I've pitched the idea to him to hold an "in-service" of sorts, that their clients can attend, to basically "sell" them on using FreeBSD for their needs, and he expressed interest in doing this. Naturally, I'll be running the show. :) Again, being able to hand them a CD, with information sheet, and saying "here, give it a try on your home system, etc." would be a good thing. e. I'm sure I could think of more uses/advocacy projects, and I probably have, but I can't recall them at the moment... I solemnly swear that I will *not* sell any of these CD's. Thanks to you, and to FreeBSD! --- Donald Burr *NEW EMAIL ADDRESS!* | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. >>FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations - http://www.freebsd.org/<< To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 02:23:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA29134 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:23:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA29127 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id CAA02722 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:22:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:22:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: blurb Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok, I am not in sales or marketing.. I just though I'd give this a try and see what came out. This is just text. Imagine if we take Blender, combine this with cool graphics, make it a movie .. well, any graphics/animation gurus out there? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= So, now that you are on the web, surfing around... Do you ever wonder WHAT makes it run? Ever wonder WHY or HOW is this all possible? Do you use Yahoo! or Hotmail and think "Boy, these web sites must be running mainfraimes the size of my room". Well, not quite. You see, some smart people got together and created an operating system. Operating system for the masses, for you and me. They wanted the Operating system to be free and source code to be free so anyone could use it and learn from it. So start-ups like Yahoo! and Hotmail could use it and not worry about the IT budget or if they would have enough room for that large mainframe. So people like you and me could use it and not depend on the next service pack to get bugs and problems fixed. Next time you visit Yahoo! or Hotmail - keep in mind, it runs FreeBSD. And also keep in mind you can be running this same OS on your computer. For free. Go to www.FreeBSD.org for more information. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." "Write longer sentences - they are paying us a lot of money" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 13:47:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04733 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:47:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from usr01.primenet.com (tlambert@usr01.primenet.com [206.165.6.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04724 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:47:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15377; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:46:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807262046.NAA15377@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: blurb To: jkb@best.com (Jan B. Koum) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:46:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jan B. Koum" at Jul 26, 98 02:22:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Little rough; I always see... > people got together and created an operating system. Operating system > for the masses, for you and me. They wanted the Operating system to be the masses them asses the masses them asses the masses them asses the masses ... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 13:59:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06140 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:59:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06135 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id NAA05952; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:58:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:58:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Terry Lambert cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blurb In-Reply-To: <199807262046.NAA15377@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Change it if you want. English isn't my frist language anyway. Should I mail this to multimedia@freebsd to see if anyone wants to put this into nice animation? -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." "Write longer sentences - they are paying us a lot of money" On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: >Little rough; I always see... > >> people got together and created an operating system. Operating system >> for the masses, for you and me. They wanted the Operating system to be > >the masses >them asses >the masses >them asses >the masses >them asses >the masses > >... > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 15:10:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16721 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16708 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:10:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-6.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.55]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA12766 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:10:18 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980726151744.0069c50c@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:17:44 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Regarding the Hardware List/Database Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, since I was the one that started this thread I guess I sort of Volunteered myself to do this. Some of you started going into actually using a real data base (I guess web based). Well, if I were to do this I'm pretty much limited to what my ISP's server can do (or let me do). Well, I'm and amatuer Perl hacker and maybe if I put enough thought to it I can try to write a CGI data base thingy using Perl. I have no clue on how to start this, but at least it would be a challege that would be worth my while. If there's anyone out there that can help me out with this, then please give me a hand. :) I was thinking of having some imput forms on a page that a user can input the brand, model number, and type of hardware (cdrom, hardrive, motherboard, etc) that is found to be compatible with FreeBSD. Although, I'm having trouble figuring how to sort it all out so that all the CDROM hardware can be together, and all the motherboard stuff can be together, and so forth. I guess the inputted stuff can be written to a file and then displayed as hardware.html or something like that. Any ideas anyone? Joey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 17:05:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00411 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:05:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00404 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10226; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:04:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807270004.SAA10226@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:04:01 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: O'Reilly still supporting FSF exclusively Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As of today, O'Reilly's Web page at http://opensource.oreilly.com/townmeet.html still says that all attendees at the company's "Open Source Town Hall" will be required to donate $10 to the Free Software Foundation, an organization that disparages all open source software efforts other than those which support its specific philosophy and restrictive licensing terms. Some "Town Hall!" If O'Reilly is not responsive, it may be time for us to -- however reluctantly -- engage in some appropriate form of protest -- perhaps buttons, literature, or refusal to pay the $10 "donation" at the event. While I know that Jordan has always been conciliatory toward the Linux camp as a whole, I think it's important that he speak out strongly against forced support of a group that openly disparages the methodologies of other open source development teams, including Apache, XFree86, and others. Perhaps we can hand out 2.2.6 disks (which will now be obsolete) with an appropriate message attached, indicating that the GPL is NOT the only way and that this is an example of what can be done under a less restrictive license. Walnut Creek people: What does WC CD-ROM do with its obsolete disks? I can't think of a better use. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 18:55:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17299 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:55:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (dynamic39.pm04.san-mateo.best.com [205.149.174.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA17283 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:55:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18968; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980726185504.A18569@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:55:04 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly still supporting FSF exclusively Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199807270004.SAA10226@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807270004.SAA10226@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 06:04:01PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 06:04:01PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >As of today, O'Reilly's Web page at > >http://opensource.oreilly.com/townmeet.html > >still says that all attendees at the company's "Open Source Town Hall" will >be required to donate $10 to the Free Software Foundation, an organization >that disparages all open source software efforts other than those which >support its specific philosophy and restrictive licensing terms. Some "Town >Hall!" > >If O'Reilly is not responsive, it may be time for us to -- however >reluctantly -- engage in some appropriate form of protest -- perhaps >buttons, literature, or refusal to pay the $10 "donation" at the event. >While I know that Jordan has always been conciliatory toward the Linux camp >as a whole, I think it's important that he speak out strongly against >forced support of a group that openly disparages the methodologies of other >open source development teams, including Apache, XFree86, and others. >Perhaps we can hand out 2.2.6 disks (which will now be obsolete) with an >appropriate message attached, indicating that the GPL is NOT the only way >and that this is an example of what can be done under a less restrictive >license. Walnut Creek people: What does WC CD-ROM do with its obsolete >disks? I can't think of a better use. Brett, I have been following the discussion over the last week about the Open Source Town Meeting. I understand you are unhappy with O'Reilly's choice of recipient of the funds raised by this meeting. I must say I do have a lot of sympathy for your position but I must urge caution and moderation. There is a lot of reason for the Linux, FreeBSD, GNU, FSF, OpenBSD, NetBSD (did I forget anybody) to snipe at each other. But I must remind you that these people are not the enemy. The enemy is microsoft. We got into a factional fight back in the 80's and 90's and in the end we, the Unix community, got fucked not billy gates. We would be better off organizing and finding common ground rather than fight amongst ourselves. Remember there is strength in numbers. I urge you to focus that good energy you have toward organizing and focusing on your common enemy. My $0.02 Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses LocalWords: Linux To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 19:20:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20262 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20256 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12122; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:19:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807270219.UAA12122@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:19:26 -0600 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly still supporting FSF exclusively In-Reply-To: <19980726185504.A18569@mooseriver.com> References: <199807270004.SAA10226@lariat.lariat.org> <199807270004.SAA10226@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:55 PM 7/26/98 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: >I have been following the discussion over the last week about the Open >Source Town Meeting. I understand you are unhappy with O'Reilly's choice of >recipient of the funds raised by this meeting. I must say I do have a lot >of sympathy for your position but I must urge caution and moderation. There >is a lot of reason for the Linux, FreeBSD, GNU, FSF, OpenBSD, NetBSD (did I >forget anybody) to snipe at each other. But I must remind you that these >people are not the enemy. The enemy is microsoft. I guess I have to disagree here. The purpose of FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc. is not and SHOULD not be to "defeat" any private entity, no matter how nefarious. The primary goal of all of these projects must be to produce quality software which others can use and build upon. To declare these efforts to be "anti-Microsoft" is to trivialize them and make them seem spiteful. Yes, Microsoft's dominance and unscrupulous behavior are a problem. However, we should not seek to "torpedo" Microsoft -- or any other entity, for that matter -- but merely to level the playing field. I, for one, would have no problems with Microsoft if it competed fairly. >We got into a factional >fight back in the 80's and 90's and in the end we, the Unix community, got >fucked not billy gates. We would be better off organizing and finding >common ground rather than fight amongst ourselves. Unfortunately, the FSF -- itself taken by surprise by the success of Linux -- has allowed that success to go to its head. It does not feel that it NEEDS the support of any other member of the Open Source community, and deprecates and consistently works against most of the others. It has, in essence, ambitions similar to Microsoft's, only in the realm of Open Source software -- and its license, the GPL, reflects this "imperialism." If we truly want to see a level playing field in the Open Source arena, we MUST protest when we find players such as O'Reilly supporting the FSF's "our way or no way" tactics. It is especially important to establish such ground rules early on. It will soon be too late. >Remember there is >strength in numbers. I urge you to focus that good energy you have toward >organizing and focusing on your common enemy. Again, the "common enemy" should not be Microsoft. If you feel that there must be a "common enemy," then that enemy should be anyone who attempts to prevent fair and free competition in any realm. And, I regret to say, the FSF falls into this category. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 19:26:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20868 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20859 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12219; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:25:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807270225.UAA12219@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:25:18 -0600 To: "Francisco Reyes" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly still supporting FSF exclusively Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807270114.SAA17889@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:14 PM 7/26/98 -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: >Even if O'Reilly has in >the past said something negative about FreeBSD I doubt they are >actively attacking it since they are probably busier trying to get >maindshare against windows. Nope. They make plenty of money off of Windows and NT books. Probably considerably more than they make even from their Linux books. O'Reilly's strategy is to pick one "winner" in each category and then attempt to promote that entity's success at the expense of the others. They've picked Linux in the Open Source OS category, and have been turning down book proposals related to FreeBSD (I know several authors who have made such proposals). When one asks why, they make excuses. --Brett P.S. -- I'm not sure whether you copied your message to me to the list. If you didn't, forgive me for reproducing a small section of it in my reply, which I *have* posted to the list.... I think it's important point to address. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 26 21:29:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05839 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:29:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05815 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:29:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12057; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:29:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199807270429.WAA12057@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ In-Reply-To: <22001.901349297@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jul 24, 98 11:48:17 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:29:07 -0600 (MDT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I sort of > gritched that for an "Open Source" site it looked a lot more to me > like "Linux == Open Source" site, and he said that's only because no > FreeBSD folks had bothered to contact him about providing a more > balanced viewpoint. So contact him! ;-) Au contraire, mon frere. A couple of months ago Eric told me FreeBSD didn't have any presence on his pages because he couldn't find any evidence that commercial organizations were making money from FreeBSD. I and others on the advocacy list sent him information about 20+ different companies selling FreeBSD-based systems, software for FreeBSD, and devices with FreeBSD embedded. So far, no references to these have appeared at linux^h^h^h^h^hopensource.org. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 27 02:37:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10029 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@[194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA10012 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:37:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26755; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:34:49 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:35:21 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Open Systems Networking CC: Frank Pawlak , Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Open Systems Networking wrote: > > It's easy to get caught up in this, but I would just like to remind > people, that *I* think were wasting time and effort competing with Linux > as a desktop OS. Don't be so sure... I don't have the article here (and it's not on the web) but UK Computer Shopper were complaining about the latest Red Hat installation program and recommending FreeBSD instead (again; I think that's about 3 issues so far this year that have mentioned us favourably :-) Maybe they could use some of those 2.2.6 cd's .... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 27 04:09:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26714 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:09:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@[194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA26708 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:09:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27175; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:00:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35BC5DE6.364FB082@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:00:54 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jan B. Koum" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blurb References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jan B. Koum wrote: > So start-ups like Yahoo! and Hotmail could use it and not worry about are Hotmail definitely using FreeBSD? istr solaris being mentioned... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 27 04:24:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28204 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA28195 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id EAA16626; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:24:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:24:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Stuart Henderson cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blurb In-Reply-To: <35BC5DE6.364FB082@internationalschool.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok.. this is how this was told to me: Hotmail uses freebsd on their web servers (front end). Hotmail uses Solaris on their database (or whatever) servers (back end). Someone please correct if I am wrong here .. (I do know from reputable source though that they do use FreeBSD). -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." "Write longer sentences - they are paying us a lot of money" On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Stuart Henderson wrote: >Jan B. Koum wrote: >> So start-ups like Yahoo! and Hotmail could use it and not worry about > >are Hotmail definitely using FreeBSD? istr solaris being mentioned... > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 27 05:41:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09151 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:41:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA09136 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:41:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z0maD-0005fz-00; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:40:54 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA01927; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:40:19 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06750; Mon, 27 Jul 98 13:40:18 BST Message-Id: <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:39:45 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stuart Henderson wrote: > > Don't be so sure... I don't have the article here (and it's not on the > web) but UK Computer Shopper were complaining about the latest Red Hat > installation program and recommending FreeBSD instead (again; I think > that's about 3 issues so far this year that have mentioned us favourably > :-) > Really?. Comp Shopper including regular, favourable articles about UNIX?. I didn't renew my subscription to CS when it expired at the beginning of this year because the mag was just Windows, Windows, and more Windows and didn't appear to even acknowledge the existence of other OS's (mind you, thinking back, the last issue I received had a multi-page review of FreeBSD :-) ) > Maybe they could use some of those 2.2.6 cd's ... Yes. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 27 07:40:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26860 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:40:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from joshua.enteract.com (joshua.enteract.com [207.229.129.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA26845 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:40:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djhoward@joshua.enteract.com) Received: (qmail 8656 invoked by uid 1032); 27 Jul 1998 14:39:43 -0000 Message-ID: <19980727093943.D6677@enteract.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:39:43 -0500 From: dannyman To: Gregory Sutter , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall? Mail-Followup-To: Gregory Sutter , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199807252203.PAA28942@newsguy.com> <19980725235125.A2551@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: <19980725235125.A2551@notabene.zer0.org>; from Gregory Sutter on Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 11:51:25PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 11:51:25PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > If we're selling things, we should have a .com address instead of a .org. > That should be enough to make it clear... I hope. If it's non-profit though, the .org would lend it credibility ... "we're the .org that points you to the .coms!" :) -danny -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 27 08:41:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07224 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@[194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07197 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28288; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:30:54 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35BC9D50.71576D37@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:31:28 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > > Really?. Comp Shopper including regular, favourable articles about UNIX?. I There isn't usually much about it but a few of their writers know about it now (I think this was a redhat review, so seeing it mentioned was particularly welcome alongside words like reliable etc. :-) there was a bit of a mention in an article about e-commerce a month or two ago as well, although the price of leased lines over here doesn't help much getting people to try and run that themselves (although if other isp's follow easynet's lead it should get a bit better) and leave it up to whatever their isp uses, although quite often that's some kind of BSD anyway :-) > > Maybe they could use some of those 2.2.6 cd's ... > > Yes. I have a feeling you'd probably get rid of all of them extremely quickly with a coupon almost anywhere in the magazine (except maybe right in the middle of the front 400-odd pages of adverts :-) I email'd their editor a few months ago to ask if they would consider cover mounting a cutdown release (if only a few selected packages, maybe samba,netscape,lynx, that kind of thing, were included it could quite happily sit on the same CD as their usual Microsoft adverts etc) but no reply - maybe it needs helping along by the authors of friendly articles (I'll have a dig around for email addresses later)... I noticed someone asking them if they'd put Red Hat on a cover CD in the chat forum on their web pages recently but I don't know if anyone important reads those. They've done a Linux cover CD before though, time for something different I think :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 27 17:58:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28843 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:58:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28752 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:58:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA17313; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:27:39 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA15199; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:27:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980728102738.W716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:27:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ References: <199807260321.UAA15678@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807260321.UAA15678@newsguy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 11:21:08PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 X-Mutt-References: <199807260321.UAA15678@newsguy.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 25 July 1998 at 23:21:08 -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:47:49 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Quite honestly, I don't see that the web page is that unbalanced. It >> does mention Linux much more than FreeBSD, but there's a lot more >> Linux out there, so that doesn't make it unbalanced. > > Since that first mail I looked at the site much more in detail. > I also got the same feeling as Jordan that it is unbalanced and not > because there is more Linux out there. I don't think he is purposedly > doing it, just that he is not familiar with the BSDs. > >> I think probably the best thing we can suggest is a page on "Free >> UNIX: your choice", with a summary (2 paragraphs or so) on each >> flavour, and with plenty of links to follow up to. Comments? > > That would be a good start. Since writing that, I've discovered (thanks to somebody on this list) http://opensource.oreilly.com/news/resources.html. This seems to contain exactly what we're trying to achieve. What else do we want Eric to do than to add a link to this page? I suppose it would be nice if O'Reilly would modify this page to unite all the operating systems under one header, but those are details. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 27 20:55:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24545 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24522 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-21.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.118]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA19738 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:55:07 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:02:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: freebsd-advocacy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anyone heard of Emerging Technologies, Inc.? They have some hardware/software for FreeBSD. Are they on the Vendors page on freebsd.org? I was just curious. They're at www.etinc.com in case you want to check out their goods. Take care. Joey =================================================== Joseph Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." =================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 27 22:00:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01938 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:00:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (insane@gw.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01932 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA13565 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980727215949.A13544@oneinsane.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:59:49 -0700 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: ; from Joey Garcia on Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 09:02:18PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.6-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I use their cards. I like mine and the only thing so far that dont work is BPF on its interface other than that I dont have a problem with them at all. TTYL Ron On Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 09:02:18PM -0700, Joey Garcia wrote: > > Has anyone heard of Emerging Technologies, Inc.? They have some > hardware/software for FreeBSD. Are they on the Vendors page on > freebsd.org? I was just curious. They're at www.etinc.com in case you > want to check out their goods. > > Take care. > > Joey > > > =================================================== > Joseph Garcia > Downey, CA > bear@pacificnet.net > "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." > =================================================== > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- -------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void -------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 02:17:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06642 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:17:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gull.dockside.co.za (gull.dockside.co.za [196.13.249.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA06606 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from inus@dockside.co.za) From: inus@dockside.co.za Received: from dockside.co.za ([196.25.199.199]) by gull.dockside.co.za (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10790 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:15:52 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <35BD9657.C1FEC066@dockside.co.za> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:13:59 +0200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD 2.2.6 CD's Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dear Mr Hubbard, I've been a FreeBSD follower since the days of 386BSD 0.1, when it was used at at historically black university, The University of Fort Hare, to implement Internet services for the computer science faculty. After setting up a successful ISP in Cape Town (on FreeBSD 2.1R), I would like to interest local government and non-governmental organisations in FreeBSD as a compentent alternative to the commercial O/S's and as an obvious solution to help alleviate pressing needs in the educational sector. Placed in Cape Town, South Africa, there are a wealth of opportunities to publicise and distribute information about what I feel is a truly great project. Regards Inus Scheepers. -- Shipping address: 10 Constantia Road, Oranjezicht, 8001 Cape Town, South Africa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 06:43:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11376 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:43:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA11357 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00495; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:42:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:42:24 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" , Francisco Reyes Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ In-Reply-To: <19980728102738.W716@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > Since writing that, I've discovered (thanks to somebody on this list) > http://opensource.oreilly.com/news/resources.html. This seems to > contain exactly what we're trying to achieve. What else do we want > Eric to do than to add a link to this page? I suppose it would be > nice if O'Reilly would modify this page to unite all the operating > systems under one header, but those are details. > > Greg Personally, Im hoping for better accuracy, even in minimal summaries. I am sending some corrections for several sections where either critical information was omitted, or the information presented is just plain wrong. .e.g. RMS didn't write his non-unix OS in '84. May have started, but it sure isn't complete yet.... Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 07:05:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14431 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:05:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA14426 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z1AN9-0000Y7-00; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:05:00 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA02555; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:03:49 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08256; Tue, 28 Jul 98 15:03:48 BST Message-Id: <35BDDA22.B69C9DCB@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:03:14 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> <35BC9D50.71576D37@internationalschool.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stuart Henderson wrote: > > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > Really?. Comp Shopper including regular, favourable articles about UNIX?. I > > There isn't usually much about it but a few of their writers know about > it now (I think this was a redhat review, so seeing it mentioned was > particularly welcome alongside words like reliable etc. :-) [snip] > I email'd their editor a few months ago to ask if they would consider > cover mounting a cutdown release (if only a few selected packages, maybe > samba,netscape,lynx, that kind of thing, were included it could quite > happily sit on the same CD as their usual Microsoft adverts etc) but no > reply - maybe it needs helping along by the authors of friendly articles > (I'll have a dig around for email addresses later)... >From the days when I used to read Shopper I recall that Bill Poel seemed to be the only contributor who could write objectively about Operating Systems, everyone else seeming to take the view "if it's not Windows, it's just something to take the p**s out of". I would think that e-mailing Bill Poel would probably get a better response, although I don't know whether or not he can influence the contents of the cover CD. > I noticed someone asking them if they'd put Red Hat on a cover CD in the > chat forum on their web pages recently but I don't know if anyone > important reads those. They've done a Linux cover CD before though, time > for something different I think :-) I've been having a (e-mail) discussion with the author of the Hands On Unix column in Personal Computer World about something that was in last month's issue. At the end of this discussion I offered him one of these 2.2.6 CD sets and asked if he would consider writing a review of FreeBSD. I haven't had a reply yet and I can't remember the chaps' name (can find out though). His e-mail address is unix@pcw.co.uk and this is what I said (I'm not a marketing/sales person so I don't claim to be an expert at marketing things ):... ------- begin quote--------- ....and would like to see more reference/coverage of FreeBSD in Hands On Unix. To this end the FreeBSD team is making available free copies of the FreeBSD v2.2.6 CD set for promotional and review purposes. There are some copies heading over here to the UK. If I arrange for you to be sent a copy would you be willing to review FreeBSD in your column? FreeBSD is a very stable and is the OS which runs the YAHOO! search engine and the Walnut Creek ftp site, to name but 2 major commercial users. The CD set comes with hundreds of ported applications in pkg_add format. It will also run Linux & SCO binaries, further extending its flexibility. -------- end quote --------- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 08:07:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25062 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA25022 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z1BKt-0000XU-00; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:06:43 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA02776; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:06:32 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09281; Tue, 28 Jul 98 16:06:32 BST Message-Id: <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:05:58 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> <35BC9D50.71576D37@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BDDA22.B69C9DCB@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > I've been having a (e-mail) discussion with the author of the Hands On Unix > column in Personal Computer World about something that was in last month's > issue. At the end of this discussion I offered him one of these 2.2.6 CD sets > and asked if he would consider writing a review of FreeBSD. I just got an answer from Personal Computer World and it sounds very positive, here's the reply: ----- begin included message------ > > On a related note. I actually use FreeBSD rather than Linux (simply > > because it is BSD based and therefore is very similar to SunOS 4.1.x > > which I use at work) and would like to see more reference/coverage of > > FreeBSD in Hands On Unix. > > Fair enough. I have an older copy installed here (direct from the Net), > and have given it some coverage, but haven't delved into it much. > > > To this end the FreeBSD team is making available free copies of the > > FreeBSD v2.2.6 CD set for promotional and review purposes. There are > > some copies heading over here to the UK. If I arrange for you to be sent > > a copy would you be willing to review FreeBSD in your column? > > Fair enough. As you know, I don't do what I would call "reviews" in the > col, but I can certainly install it and tell readers about it. > > > The CD set comes with hundreds of ported applications in pkg_add format. > > It will also run Linux & SCO binaries, further extending its > > flexibility. > > That's a new one on me. The version I have here uses a.out, not elf. > ------- end included message ---------- Now, who is it in the UK that Jordan sent the CD's to ?? -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 08:40:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02493 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:40:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.ljis.ml.org (cyberworld.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02475 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:40:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ljohnston@cyberworld.demon.co.uk) Received: (from ljohnston@localhost) by gate.ljis.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00375; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:39:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ljohnston) Message-ID: <19980728163945.B249@ljis.ml.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:39:45 +0100 From: Lee Johnston To: Mark Ovens , Stuart Henderson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> <35BC9D50.71576D37@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BDDA22.B69C9DCB@uk.radan.com> <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:05:58PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:05:58PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > I just got an answer from Personal Computer World and it sounds very positive, > here's the reply: Great. > Now, who is it in the UK that Jordan sent the CD's to ?? It's me Lee!!! Regards, Lee. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 09:39:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16491 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.ljis.ml.org (cyberworld.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16429 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:38:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ljohnston@cyberworld.demon.co.uk) Received: (from ljohnston@localhost) by gate.ljis.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00283; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:38:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ljohnston) Message-ID: <19980728173803.A237@ljis.ml.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:38:03 +0100 From: Lee Johnston To: Mark Ovens , Stuart Henderson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> <35BC9D50.71576D37@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BDDA22.B69C9DCB@uk.radan.com> <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:05:58PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:05:58PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > I just got an answer from Personal Computer World and it sounds very positive, > here's the reply: Great, at least they are trying it. > > Now, who is it in the UK that Jordan sent the CD's to ?? > Jordan sent it to me Lee, I haven't got them yet, will have tomorrow or the next day if all goes to plan, if you send me your address I'll be happy to send you one to forward to PCW? Lee. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 09:41:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17096 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.ljis.ml.org (cyberworld.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17027 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ljohnston@cyberworld.demon.co.uk) Received: (from ljohnston@localhost) by gate.ljis.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00375; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:39:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ljohnston) Message-ID: <19980728163945.B249@ljis.ml.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:39:45 +0100 From: Lee Johnston To: Mark Ovens , Stuart Henderson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> <35BC9D50.71576D37@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BDDA22.B69C9DCB@uk.radan.com> <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:05:58PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 11:01:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04668 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:01:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04615 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:01:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10235; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:57:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Mark Ovens cc: Stuart Henderson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:05:58 BST." <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:57:46 -0700 Message-ID: <10232.901648666@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > The CD set comes with hundreds of ported applications in pkg_add format. > > > It will also run Linux & SCO binaries, further extending its > > > flexibility. > > > > That's a new one on me. The version I have here uses a.out, not elf. You should tell him that just because we use a.out ourselves doesn't mean that we can't run other people's ELF binaries. :) > Now, who is it in the UK that Jordan sent the CD's to ?? At least 6 or 7 individuals in the UK have received CDs so far. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 15:12:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00192 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:12:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA29967 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:11:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z1HxP-00030R-00; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:10:56 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA03374; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:10:16 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12609; Tue, 28 Jul 98 23:10:15 BST Message-Id: <35BE55B6.CBF11FAC@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:50:30 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Stuart Henderson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <10232.901648666@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > The CD set comes with hundreds of ported applications in pkg_add format. > > > > It will also run Linux & SCO binaries, further extending its > > > > flexibility. > > > > > > That's a new one on me. The version I have here uses a.out, not elf. > > You should tell him that just because we use a.out ourselves doesn't > mean that we can't run other people's ELF binaries. :) > I intend to > > Now, who is it in the UK that Jordan sent the CD's to ?? > > At least 6 or 7 individuals in the UK have received CDs so far. OK, I've sorted out a copy and will forward it as soon as I get it. PCW include on their cover CD's the "Hands On" sections (which cover all the major OS's and several other topics) for the preceding 12 months in PDF format. If we get a good review I'll sort out permission to use the PDF file for publicity (on the Web site and/or in the newsletter). I'll also point Chris Bidmead (the guy who writes the column) to the Newsletters on www.freebsd.org. > > - Jordan Regards, Mark O. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 16:25:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14408 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:25:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14363 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:25:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA21055 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:54:29 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA20585; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:54:27 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980729085427.X716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:54:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open source rules! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Take a look at this stuff. It's interesting because the result of SunWorld's open source survey give us the first factually based comparison between FreeBSD and Linux that I have seen. Bottom line: FreeBSD has approximately 25% of the penetration of Linux (and added together they account for 80% of business and 95% of home users). Greg ----- Forwarded message from SunWorld Editor-in-Chief ----- > To: grog@lemis.com > Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 13:03:07 EST > > SunWorld: IDG's magazine for the Sun community > http://www.sunworld.com > > > July 28, 1998 > > Dear SunWorld Subscriber: > > The results of our wildly popular open source reader survey are now > up, and you may want to show them to your manager. They show that > the idea that large corporations won't run free software is largely > a myth. Open source code is being used in almost every imaginable > work environment: small business, the enterprise, NT shops, > Solaris. Find out what more than 4,000 SunWorld readers had to say > about what open source software means to them. > > http://www.sunworld.com/swol-07-1998/swol-07-readersurvey.html?072898a > > Solaris is getting easier to install and easier to write > applications for thanks to work that Sun and InstallShield are doing > together. Tomorrow the two companies will announce Solaris > enhancements to Installshield's Java development tool. > > http://www.sunworld.com/swol-07-1998/swol-07-installshield.html?072898a > > The SANS (System Administration Networking and Security) Institute > has placed a new set of intrusion detection tools in the public > domain. Shadow, as the tools are called, is already monitoring more > than 40 known attack profiles in incoming network traffic for more > than 14,000 hosts. > > http://www.sunworld.com/swol-07-1998/swol-07-sans.html?072898a > > Speaking of SANS, be sure you haven't missed Peter Galvin's > excellent little wrap-up of the recent SANS '98 conference in his > current Security column. > > http://www.sunworld.com/swol-07-1998/swol-07-security.html?072898a > > In Eye on the Competition, Linux is making more waves with Oracle, > Informix, and Netscape all announcing their porting intentions last > week. Also read about HP and Intel's standards-based net management > initiative for controlling bandwidth, security, virtual private > networks, and other network services. > > http://www.sunworld.com/swol-07-1998/swol-07-eyeoncomp.html?072898a > > The Internet in outer space? Vinton Cerf says it's not as > far-fetched and far off as you might think. He says the U.S. > government is working on a satellite device that will act as an > Internet gateway, and it will be left behind on the next mission to > Mars. Go to The Internet Files. > > http://www.sunworld.com/swol-07-1998/swol-07-if.html?072898a > > Take another peek at our Table of Contents before the month runs > out! > > > Best regards, > Carolyn Wong > Editor-in-Chief > SunWorld > http://www.sunworld.com > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To stop receiving such messages, send email to swunsub@emailch.com > with a subject field of: > > UNSUB sunworld grog@lemis.com sw1143 > > Questions? Email sunworld@emailch.com > > Distribution, database maintenance and response management > by The Email Channel, Inc. For more information, send e-mail > to info@emailch.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 18:38:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08298 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:38:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08136 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA21448; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:06:10 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA21309; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:06:03 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980729110602.I716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:06:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" , Francisco Reyes Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ References: <19980728102738.W716@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from ADRIAN Filipi-Martin on Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 09:42:24AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 28 July 1998 at 9:42:24 -0400, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Since writing that, I've discovered (thanks to somebody on this list) >> http://opensource.oreilly.com/news/resources.html. This seems to >> contain exactly what we're trying to achieve. What else do we want >> Eric to do than to add a link to this page? I suppose it would be >> nice if O'Reilly would modify this page to unite all the operating >> systems under one header, but those are details. > > Personally, Im hoping for better accuracy, even in minimal > summaries. I am sending some corrections for several sections where > either critical information was omitted, or the information presented is > just plain wrong. .e.g. RMS didn't write his non-unix OS in '84. May > have started, but it sure isn't complete yet.... Hmm. I had expected more reaction to my suggestions. Even what you say here doesn't appear to relate directly to FreeBSD. What does the (currently very) silent majority think? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 20:16:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24943 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24912 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA25871; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807290316.UAA25871@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:15:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:27:38 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >Since writing that, I've discovered (thanks to somebody on this list) >http://opensource.oreilly.com/news/resources.html. This seems to >contain exactly what we're trying to achieve. What else do we want >Eric to do than to add a link to this page? Given other comments that info has been sent on the past to Eric regarding FreeBSD and that he never acted upon it I don't see why we should continue sending him any feedback. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 20:26:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27257 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27177 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:26:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15148; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:25:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35BE963C.2F154E22@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:25:48 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: freebsd-advocacy Subject: Re: etinc FreeBSD vendor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joey Garcia wrote: > > Has anyone heard of Emerging Technologies, Inc.? They have some > hardware/software for FreeBSD. Are they on the Vendors page on > freebsd.org? I was just curious. They're at www.etinc.com in case you > want to check out their goods. I checked out their web page, and I think this is a clever idea. They sell their bandwidth management product integrated into a FreeBSD kernel, pre-installed on an IDE hard disk. You stick it in the machine of your choice, configure the IP interfaces, and call it managed. Very clever. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 22:12:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11298 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:12:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11293 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:12:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-11.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.60]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA22847; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:12:00 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980728221910.006a43c4@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:19:10 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: etinc FreeBSD vendor Cc: freebsd-advocacy In-Reply-To: <35BE963C.2F154E22@softweyr.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ya know, I asked if a link to this company was on the Vendors list and when I finally got off my lazy butt to check, I found out that it was. :) Cool! Joey At 09:25 PM 7/28/98 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >Joey Garcia wrote: >> >> Has anyone heard of Emerging Technologies, Inc.? They have some >> hardware/software for FreeBSD. Are they on the Vendors page on >> freebsd.org? I was just curious. They're at www.etinc.com in case you >> want to check out their goods. > >I checked out their web page, and I think this is a clever idea. They >sell their bandwidth management product integrated into a FreeBSD kernel, >pre-installed on an IDE hard disk. You stick it in the machine of your >choice, configure the IP interfaces, and call it managed. Very clever. > >-- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > >Wes Peters Softweyr LLC >http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 23:00:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17100 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17040 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15441; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:59:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35BEBA51.CFF27E92@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:59:45 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ References: <19980728102738.W716@freebie.lemis.com> <19980729110602.I716@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Tuesday, 28 July 1998 at 9:42:24 -0400, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> Since writing that, I've discovered (thanks to somebody on this list) > >> http://opensource.oreilly.com/news/resources.html. This seems to > >> contain exactly what we're trying to achieve. What else do we want > >> Eric to do than to add a link to this page? I suppose it would be > >> nice if O'Reilly would modify this page to unite all the operating > >> systems under one header, but those are details. > > > > Personally, Im hoping for better accuracy, even in minimal > > summaries. I am sending some corrections for several sections where > > either critical information was omitted, or the information presented is > > just plain wrong. .e.g. RMS didn't write his non-unix OS in '84. May > > have started, but it sure isn't complete yet.... > > Hmm. I had expected more reaction to my suggestions. Even what you > say here doesn't appear to relate directly to FreeBSD. What does the > (currently very) silent majority think? I went back and looked more closely this time. I'm a little disappointed at the coverage of "BSD", but am certain they'd accept more info. For instance, the characterization of NetBSD and OpenBSD as being for "PC compatible" computers is quite unfair; they both run on a wide variety of platforms. It seems their coverage of BSD is somewhat slanted towards FreeBSD. So, what can we say in a one-paragraph capsule review of FreeBSD? I'll kick the discussion off with a quick stab at a capsule description: The internet's most stable, reliable operating system, derived from the legendary Berkeley Software Distribution. FreeBSD emphasizes robust performance on industry standard "PC" class hardware, and a large collection of free and commercial applications, with the ability to execute binary programs created for FreeBSD, Linux, and SCO UNIX. I know I'm missing the excellent performance of FreeBSD as a workstation, and the growing support for multimedia. Help me out here. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 23:10:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18986 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18882 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:10:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA02310; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:08:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Francisco Reyes cc: Greg Lehey , "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ In-Reply-To: <199807290316.UAA25871@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:27:38 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >Since writing that, I've discovered (thanks to somebody on this list) > >http://opensource.oreilly.com/news/resources.html. This seems to > >contain exactly what we're trying to achieve. What else do we want > >Eric to do than to add a link to this page? > > Given other comments that info has been sent on the past to Eric > regarding FreeBSD and that he never acted upon it I don't see why we > should continue sending him any feedback. This isn't the same site. The O'reilly webmaster responsibile was actually very thankful for my detailed proofing and pointing out of problems. He intends to fix the effor I pointed out. He just doesn't have the same amount of time in industry as a lot of the readers of the page, so he is open to suggestions. The fact that my commentary was two pages, didn't seem to phase him a bit. "How can you be partisan if you thake shots at everyone?" is my motto of the day. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 23:16:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19796 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:16:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19791 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:16:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA02321; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:15:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:15:58 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" , Francisco Reyes Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ In-Reply-To: <19980729110602.I716@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 28 July 1998 at 9:42:24 -0400, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> Since writing that, I've discovered (thanks to somebody on this list) > >> http://opensource.oreilly.com/news/resources.html. This seems to > >> contain exactly what we're trying to achieve. What else do we want > >> Eric to do than to add a link to this page? I suppose it would be > >> nice if O'Reilly would modify this page to unite all the operating > >> systems under one header, but those are details. > > > > Personally, Im hoping for better accuracy, even in minimal > > summaries. I am sending some corrections for several sections where > > either critical information was omitted, or the information presented is > > just plain wrong. .e.g. RMS didn't write his non-unix OS in '84. May > > have started, but it sure isn't complete yet.... > > Hmm. I had expected more reaction to my suggestions. Even what you > say here doesn't appear to relate directly to FreeBSD. What does the > (currently very) silent majority think? Sorry, but I guess I could have included my comments to the o'reilly webmaster. I made a few to the BSD section as well as others. He took it all quite well and plans to use much my multi-page message to make corrections next week. If this is the kind of open attitude they are taking to showing who is on the field of open software, then I'll be glad to see this site grow. An open mind is all I ever really look for. I tried to be fair and point out inaccuracies int he presentation of as many areas as possible, not just the BSD ones. Can't wait to see the next edition. Finally, in response to your question, I'd just hope to see more info on the BSD's in general. While it has been argued that proportional represnetaion on the opensource site and in the press is reasonable, this marginalizes the BSD's. It is akin to preaching to the choir, and pandering to the masses by giving them what they want. If the site is about open software technology, then it has to promote the technology first and foremost. If it is about open software as a model of business, then I guess they can do that, it just won't be very interesting and will degenerate into a propaganda rag. As far as technical achievments, it more of a tit-for-tat situation IMHO with many developments happening in all the Linux and BSD communities. It's not as if a larger user base indicates a larger amount of interesting things to say about a software package. Of course it can be argues that they are making more news, and should get more coverage. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 28 23:59:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27785 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:59:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA27780 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z1QCP-0005EO-00; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:58:58 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id HAA01226; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:58:13 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00886; Wed, 29 Jul 98 07:58:12 BST Message-Id: <35BEC7E1.3515109A@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:57:37 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Lee Johnston Cc: freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> <35BC9D50.71576D37@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BDDA22.B69C9DCB@uk.radan.com> <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com> <19980728173803.A237@ljis.ml.org> <35BE55CA.CFB36749@uk.radan.com> <19980729000042.A555@ljis.ml.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Lee Johnston wrote: > > I've got to get an address from Chris Bidmead (the guy at PCW) to send > > the CD's to, and I'm going to offer to e-mail him the 2 FreeBSD > > Newsletters (better ask first as they as nearly 1MB zipped!) to give him > > some info about real-world uses of FreeBSD. If you've any suggestions > > for info to go on a 'flyer' to send with the CD's let me know. I'll send > > him the CD's as soon as I receive them from you. > > Sounds like you've got it planned! > > Maybe we should include step by step instructions on how to install FreeBSD, > but it sounds like he's used FreeBSD before so this will proberbly be pointless. > Yes, no need really, he's not going to have problems with it. Besides which, we need FreeBSD assessed "as is" > > Don't know if you read PCW or not, but they put the Hands On sections > > (which cover all major OS's and several other topics) on the cover CD's > > in PDF format, covering the preceding 12 months. So if we get a good > > write-up hopefully we can get permission to post these on suitable Web > > sites (www.freebsd.org?). > > > I read PCW a couple of months back, but I didn't really read the Hands On > section. I'll buy a copy tomorrow and take a look. When you do, take a look on the CD at /handson/pdfs/unix.pdf and find the March 1998 pages. This is where he reports about installing via ftp the version he current has. In it he praises the FreeBSD team for a simple install routine and make other favourable comments. The whole file is several MB in size so I can't attach it to an e-mail. However, we have the complete Acrobat suite at work so I'll see if it is possible to extract sections from a PDF. > > I'm sure the permission thing will be no problem, if it is we could put > it up on the User Group site and get a link from www.freebsd.org. > Yes > Do you think I should phone any other magazines??? I know Computer > Shopper recently published a good review of FreeBSD by Mike James. Good idea. I read that arcticle, very good review. Bill Poel who writes for Shopper gives good, balanced, objective comments on OS's, maybe he would be a better target at Shopper. His e-mail address is > > Regards, > > Lee. -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 05:11:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10267 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA10262 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:11:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13074; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:09:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Francisco Reyes" cc: "Greg Lehey" , "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: http://www.opensource.org/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:15:46 EDT." <199807290316.UAA25871@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:09:41 -0700 Message-ID: <13071.901714181@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Given other comments that info has been sent on the past to Eric > regarding FreeBSD and that he never acted upon it I don't see why we > should continue sending him any feedback. Continue sending the feedback and cc me on the messages. I see Eric a lot more often than any of you guys do and I can take the matter up with him personally if nothing seems to be happening. You guys he can ignore, perhaps, but not me. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 05:43:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15880 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:43:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.ljis.ml.org (cyberworld.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA15875 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ljohnston@cyberworld.demon.co.uk) Received: (from ljohnston@localhost) by gate.ljis.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00257; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:42:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ljohnston) Message-ID: <19980729134230.A228@ljis.ml.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:42:30 +0100 From: Lee Johnston To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> <35BC9D50.71576D37@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BDDA22.B69C9DCB@uk.radan.com> <35BDE8D6.8FBBFFF3@uk.radan.com> <19980728173803.A237@ljis.ml.org> <35BE55CA.CFB36749@uk.radan.com> <19980729000042.A555@ljis.ml.org> <35BEC7E1.3515109A@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35BEC7E1.3515109A@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 07:57:37AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 07:57:37AM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Maybe we should include step by step instructions on how to install FreeBSD, > > but it sounds like he's used FreeBSD before so this will proberbly be pointless. > > > > Yes, no need really, he's not going to have problems with it. Besides which, we > need FreeBSD assessed "as is" Yes, I suppose he does for a fair review. > When you do, take a look on the CD at /handson/pdfs/unix.pdf and find the March > 1998 pages. This is where he reports about installing via ftp the version he > current has. In it he praises the FreeBSD team for a simple install routine and > make other favourable comments. Haven't managed to get down to WHSmith yet, but as soon as I get time I'll get it. > The whole file is several MB in size so I can't attach it to an e-mail. However, > we have the complete Acrobat suite at work so I'll see if it is possible to > extract sections from a PDF. Ok, thanks. > > Do you think I should phone any other magazines??? I know Computer > > Shopper recently published a good review of FreeBSD by Mike James. > > Good idea. I read that arcticle, very good review. Bill Poel who writes for > Shopper gives good, balanced, objective comments on OS's, maybe he would be a > better target at Shopper. His e-mail address is Ok, I'll e-mail Bill. Lee. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 11:47:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28936 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:47:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28910 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28163 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:46:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:46:34 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux/SCO/NT comparison Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Howdy all, There's an interesting chart comparing Linux/SCO/NT at: http://www.xunil.com/xunil/oschart.html It appeared on Freshmeat and it's slow - not sure if that's a function of traffic from Freshmeat or if the server is just a dog. Anyway, I'm going to email him and see if he'll include FreeBSD in the chart as a representative of the *BSD's. Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ The top of my head shines through my haircut Even when I brush, shape and style The top of my head smiles at the young man Telling me I must have been alive awhile. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 14:10:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00263 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:10:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from server.computeralt.com (server.computeralt.com [207.41.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29984; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:09:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott@computeralt.com) Received: from scott (scott.computeralt.com [207.41.29.100]) by server.computeralt.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA10511; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807292109.RAA10511@server.computeralt.com> X-Sender: scott@mail.computeralt.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.31 (Beta) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:09:09 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Scott I. Remick" Subject: Linux publicity Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Let me begin with some headlines: ---------------------------- Linux moves up: Database leaders lend credibility http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980725.whlinuxsupport.htm Linux is gaining ground, but it still has miles to go in corporate America http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/tebbe/tebbe.htm With each new deal, Linux gains strength http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/vizard/vizard.htm Database Vendors, Netscape support Linux http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_display/0,3440,339810,00.html Microsoft vs. Linux: Code-to-code combat http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/opinion/0727/27wide.html Oracle to port database to Linux http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/pcwk/1530/338330.html Informix Turns Corner http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/pcwk/1530/339265.html ---------------------------- Linux is getting a TON of front-page publicity and support lately. And so... where's FreeBSD in all this? Some of Linux's advertised weaknesses ("It's good, but...") are FreeBSD's strengths. The articles would read a lot differently if it were FreeBSD being talked about instead, and imagine if FreeBSD started getting all that publicity... For example, Michael Vizard says "The only things Linux still lacks are a sophisticated set of installation routines and the support from a large service organization." Well, FreeBSD has an EXCELLENT installation routine imho, and has a much better organized team, support and beyond. I think FreeBSD's PR team needs to send some emails, make some calls, and start kicking some major butt ;) (I don't subscribe to these lists (I get too many others already) but I'd appreciated if responses were cc:'ed to me so I could follow. Thanks!) ----------------------- Scott I. Remick (MCP, A+, HP) mailto:scott@computeralt.com Network and Information Systems (802)388-7545 FAX:(802)388-3697 Computer Alternatives, Inc. http://www.computeralt.com Theater is life. Television is furniture. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 15:20:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12895 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12797; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA23567; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:19:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199807292219.SAA23567@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: FreeBSD advocacy To: scott@computeralt.com (Scott I. Remick) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:19:20 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807292109.RAA10511@server.computeralt.com> from "Scott I. Remick" at Jul 29, 98 05:09:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Scott I. Remic wrote: > Linux is getting a TON of front-page publicity and support lately. And > so... where's FreeBSD in all this? Some of Linux's advertised weaknesses > ("It's good, but...") are FreeBSD's strengths. The articles would read a > lot differently if it were FreeBSD being talked about instead, and imagine > if FreeBSD started getting all that publicity... Agreed. However we haven't yet got critical mass. Linux has lots of different CD vendors, distributions and partisons. We've got the best -- the FreeBSD crew, Walnut Creek and a great set of mailing lists, support folk on the net that KNOW UNIX. However, Linux has an evangelical bunch of GNUites that are pushing hard for their "GPL'd everything" mindset. There's also Caldera and Red Hat offering "PAID SUPPORT" which counts in the business market. (Read that as someone to blame, sue and fight if something does not work as advertised). We just need ONE vendor (Netscape, Real Networks, Oracle, Informix, Bru, Sybase, TriTeal, Lotus, IBM, Corel) to put FreeBSD up into the "officially supported release" category and we move up the notch into the REAL Competition. I would love to see a supported CDE for FreeBSD. A Wabi would be great. I wonder if Caldera ever made back the investment with Sun... I've got Moo-tiff. That's about all that I found for FreeBSD two years ago. BTW -- it's selling cheap at InfoMagic since the Linux one seems to be the only supported Moo-tiff version. > > For example, Michael Vizard says "The only things Linux still lacks are a > sophisticated set of installation routines and the support from a large > service organization." Well, FreeBSD has an EXCELLENT installation routine > imho, and has a much better organized team, support and beyond. Geez. I cursed the Red Hat 5.0 install last week. I've been loading Linux since SLS and I hadn't seen a Linux install I prefer to sysinstall. The last BSD installation that didn't work out of the box on my hardware was 2.0. > > I think FreeBSD's PR team needs to send some emails, make some calls, and > start kicking some major butt ;) > > (I don't subscribe to these lists (I get too many others already) but I'd > appreciated if responses were cc:'ed to me so I could follow. Thanks!) I've been waiting to see just one name vendor go FreeBSD. I really think a common binary and installer for Free/Net/OpenBSD might work if we could unify enough to get this done in the name of commercial apps. We'd have to lock down this format to NOT change, though. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 15:57:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21291 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21226; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:56:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01344; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807292254.PAA01344@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: scott@computeralt.com (Scott I. Remick), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD advocacy In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:19:20 EDT." <199807292219.SAA23567@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:54:07 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > We just need ONE vendor (Netscape, Real Networks, Oracle, Informix, > Bru, Sybase, TriTeal, Lotus, IBM, Corel) to put FreeBSD up > into the "officially supported release" category and we move up the > notch into the REAL Competition. Hmm, we don't count as "supported" for Netscape? As for EST, we're deploying BRU on the FreeBSD cluster, which we bought over the phone from a generic software vendor. > I would love to see a supported CDE for FreeBSD. There was one. It sold 3 copies. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 16:23:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28428 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:23:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lanshark.lanminds.com (lanshark.lanminds.com [140.174.208.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28378 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from lanfill.lanminds.com (coatppp26.lanminds.com [208.1.127.86]) by lanshark.lanminds.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA24075 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Jack Velte" From: "Jack Velte" To: Subject: datapro market penetration study Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:15:56 -0700 Message-ID: <01bdbb46$d6e86060$01d0ae8c@lanfill.lanminds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.redhat.com/redhat/datapro.html Datapro Study According to a new Datapro study Linux is the only operating system except Windows NT that is growing in corporate markets. 1. Growth of Operating Systems This chart depicts the growth of various operating systems from 1996 to 1997. The data represents the percentage growth in the number of large enterprises who are using the various operating systems. Most studies have focused on the total number of Linux installations and show that Linux has more than doubled in the past year. The Datapro study takes a different approach and reveals that the total number of enterprises using Linux has increased by 27%! [``BSD'', according to this chart, suffered an about 60% decrease in growth from 96 to 97.] -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 17:44:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15610 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:44:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15601 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA65178 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:44:22 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bdbb46$d6e86060$01d0ae8c@lanfill.lanminds.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:48:17 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: datapro market penetration study Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 4:15 PM -0700 7/29/98, Jack Velte wrote: >http://www.redhat.com/redhat/datapro.html > >Datapro Study > > According to a new Datapro study Linux is the only operating system > except Windows NT that is growing in corporate markets. Well, the only one out of the ones that they studied. > [``BSD'', according to this chart, suffered an about 60% decrease > in growth from 96 to 97.] I think that's a 60% decrease in usage, not a 60% decrease in growth. It's also not at all clear what they mean by "BSD", since there is only the one chart that lists BSD. The other charts (such as a list of how happy companies were with "Cost of Ownership") do not list anything about "BSD". It also doesn't indicate what exactly they mean by "BSD". Still, it's an interesting study. I wish I had time to track down the actual study for more details, instead of this summary page of the report as put together by the folks at RedHat. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 19:25:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11664 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:25:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11652 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25928; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807300224.TAA25928@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" , "Scott I. Remick" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:24:47 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD advocacy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:19:20 -0400 (EDT), Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >> I think FreeBSD's PR team needs to send some emails, make some calls, and >> start kicking some major butt ;) I recently sent a couple of email to some writers from PC week. I got a response from one of them, but basically he did not seem interested. The problem with just "sending emails" is that this is just a notch up from Spam. We need to find ways to do a little better. What I have been trying to do is to find recent articles from writhers about Linux and send them a little info on BSD and see if they may be interested in doing an article. >I've been waiting to see just one name vendor go FreeBSD. >I really think a common binary and installer for Free/Net/OpenBSD might >work if we could unify enough to get this done in the name of commercial >apps. We'd have to lock down this format to NOT change, though. That would be good for all 3 BSDs, but I don't know if this may be possible. After all there were enough philosophical differences for these 3 OS to be created so I don't know if the politics could be worked out. For those more technically oriented: Are the BSDs binary compatible? If not how difficult would it be? If the same package/port mechanism could be used would also be great. I don't know how we ended up with 3 BSDs, but it would be great if at least some parts of the efforts from all 3 groups could be combined. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 20:45:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21705 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:45:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21700 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:45:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-7.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.7]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA65492; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:45:04 GMT Message-ID: <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:43:43 -0700 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eric S. Raymond" CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <35BF334C.5D5F40BD@ibm.net> <19980729104951.A14984@snark.thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > Don Wilde : > > Like what you're doing, but why are the BSD's not mentioned in your > > 'software that qualifies' group? > > Because there's no profit-making entity behind it. > -- > Eric S. Raymond > > The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never > give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma. > -- Abraham Lincoln Eric, that statement is tragic. To me, the crux of open source must be that we _all_ are the profit-making entity behind FreeBSD and all other true freeware. We are not less viable because of a lack of such corporate connection. Your statement implies that your only interest in open source is to advance the commercial prospects of a company that were to release visibility of its code without right of use. That is anathema to the true spirit of the entire free release movement that began with that extra computer at Bell Labs. We all profit forom true release of software... some in money, others in use, still others in benefit. Please, Eric... rethink your position!!! It's fine to study and use that commercial-openware model, but do not fail to use your podium to also advance the real computer revolution. Linus started from that tradition, don't abandon it. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [dwilde1 @ ibm.net] [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 21:14:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23958 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:14:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23927 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:14:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16065; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:04:31 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730000430.E15941@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:04:30 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Don Wilde Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <35BF334C.5D5F40BD@ibm.net> <19980729104951.A14984@snark.thyrsus.com> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 08:43:43PM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde : > Eric, that statement is tragic. Oh, dry up. You're forgetting that the Open Source pages aren't designed to make hackers feel warm and fuzzy. They're designed for the *sole purpose* of persuading corporate types who care about nothing but money. Before these guys will adopt the Open Source way, they need to believe doing so will make them piles of (more) money. Therefore, not only do I exclude noncommercial projects, I exclude companies with less than a million dollars a year run rate. Anything that plays into the Wall Street fat cat's prejudice that we're a bunch of idealists in sandals would sabotage the message. This has nothing to do with my personal motivations. It's completely a question of how you tune your propaganda to your audience. -- Eric S. Raymond Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -- Abraham Lincoln To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 23:11:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08928 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08923 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:11:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id XAA13518; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:11:09 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id XAA23962; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:08:14 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Francisco Reyes cc: Bill/Carolyn Pechter , "Scott I. Remick" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD advocacy In-Reply-To: <199807300224.TAA25928@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Francisco Reyes wrote: >On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:19:20 -0400 (EDT), Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > >I don't know how we ended up with 3 BSDs, but it would be great if at >least some parts of the efforts from all 3 groups could be combined. Snipped most of the stuff to get to the point. Jordan gave me a short reply to a very lengthy email on this subject once. I was asking about a complete recombination of BSD's to strengthen the user base and bring in ideas. A complete recombination of the free BSD's is no fun. If I can loosely quote Jordan, "diffing sources is not as much fun as new development." The BSD's already share some things. The ports mechanisms and CVS are common. I have seen beaucoup references to other BSD's in various sources and make files. I think some of OpenBSD's security measures are novel. I know enough about crypto to probably enjoy OpenBSD. Maybe on day FreeBSD can incorporate their ideas. I after hearing Jordan's argument I would have to say that there is more than enough room for all of us on the net. I also think that there is a fundamental benefit to diversity in all things, including free software, and BSDs in particular. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 29 23:52:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15052 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:52:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA15031 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 11786 invoked by uid 24); 30 Jul 1998 06:52:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:36:54 -0700 To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Don Wilde From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: branding Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980730000430.E15941@snark.thyrsus.com> References: <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <35BF334C.5D5F40BD@ibm.net> <19980729104951.A14984@snark.thyrsus.com> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:04 AM 7/30/98 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >Oh, dry up. That was uncalled for, eh? >You're forgetting that the Open Source pages aren't designed >to make hackers feel warm and fuzzy. They're designed for the *sole >purpose* of persuading corporate types who care about nothing but money. >Before these guys will adopt the Open Source way, they need to believe >doing so will make them piles of (more) money. I would like to state that I think having the goal of the Open Source pages be all about convincing companies who sell software that they should open-source their software, is a mistake. FreeBSD is an example of a successful project, with many many commercial interests, but little commercial interest to "FreeBSD, Inc." What FreeBSD shows the world, and Apache to a lesser extent, is that no company has to be selling a "commercial version" of the open-source software in order for it to be a successful "open source project". While companies from Oracle to Yahoo to Hotmail to others are using it to save bundles of money and have greater reliability in their services, there is no one company selling a "commercial version" of FreeBSD; and I think FreeBSD shows (even better than Apache) that such a commercialization is unnecessary. Maybe you didn't intend it this way, but the lead-in to that page "software that qualifies [as open-source]" and the title for the page "open source products" and calling projects like bind and sending "open source software" leads to a rather confusing set of expectations when reading that page. So maybe a quicker way of summing this up is to suggest that non-commercial projects also be capable of being called "software that qualifies". Perhaps a separate page for just non-commercial (or low-commercial; FreeBSD Inc. is an Inc.) projects, and linking to them more specifically from the front page. >Therefore, not only do I exclude noncommercial projects, I exclude companies >with less than a million dollars a year run rate. Anything that plays into >the Wall Street fat cat's prejudice that we're a bunch of idealists in sandals >would sabotage the message. Why am I giving away one of my company's strategic advantages, again? Remind me... If given the choice between seeing 2 companies with 2B in yearly revenue and 1000 companies with 4M in revenue, I'd much rather see the latter. >This has nothing to do with my personal motivations. It's completely a >question of how you tune your propaganda to your audience. Tell it like it is, yeah. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 00:22:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19966 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA19960 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:22:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 17696 invoked by uid 24); 30 Jul 1998 07:22:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19980730072207.17695.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:53:42 -0700 To: "Jason C. Wells" , Francisco Reyes From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: FreeBSD advocacy Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <199807300224.TAA25928@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:08 PM 7/29/98 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >The BSD's already share some things. The ports mechanisms and CVS are >common. I have seen beaucoup references to other BSD's in various sources >and make files. > >I think some of OpenBSD's security measures are novel. I know enough about >crypto to probably enjoy OpenBSD. Maybe on day FreeBSD can incorporate >their ideas. Thought experiment: what would the world be like if instead of just one company producing an OS that supported the "Win32 APIs", you had three, each doing development independently, but coordinating the API's in the name of interoperability? Well, so long as the competitors each sold value on top of the base product (thus removing the need to make too many proprietary API's) then we'd have real competition in the OS space. I bet there'd be fewer bugs, more stability, and much lower prices, no "undocumented" API calls, and honest to god *innovation*. You'd also have some customization; one OS might be better at providing a total locked-down system, another might be better for serving files and applications, and yet another might be more adept at running on various hardware. So long as the API's were consistant the "balkanization" factor would be mitigated. Lo, and behold, that's what we have here in *BSD land. And this is not a bad thing; having one OS for an audience of millions means having to make decisions that make everyone happy, and it's a lot easier for 3 teams to each make 3 million people happy than one team to make all 9 million happy. Again, so long as the API's stay as consistant as possible, it really doesn't matter. Don't make it a chore for an application developer to make their products available over all three (the ports system seems to work well in this regard). Learn from each other - be on each other's CVS commit lists - I know there has been patch sharing between the teams. This is good! Don't get caught up in debates about territory and ego scratching. Interoperability is the key. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 00:55:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24735 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:55:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24720 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA25502; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:25:34 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA07910; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:25:34 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980730172533.G7830@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:25:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jack Velte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: datapro market penetration study References: <01bdbb46$d6e86060$01d0ae8c@lanfill.lanminds.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <01bdbb46$d6e86060$01d0ae8c@lanfill.lanminds.com>; from Jack Velte on Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 04:15:56PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 16:15:56 -0700, Jack Velte wrote: > http://www.redhat.com/redhat/datapro.html > > Datapro Study > > According to a new Datapro study Linux is the only operating system except > Windows NT that is growing in corporate markets. > > 1. Growth of Operating Systems > > This chart depicts the growth of various operating systems from 1996 to > 1997. The data represents the percentage growth in the number of large > enterprises who are using the various operating systems. Most studies have > focused on the total number of Linux installations and show that Linux has > more than doubled in the past year. The Datapro study takes a different > approach and reveals that the total number of enterprises using Linux has > increased by 27%! > > [``BSD'', according to this chart, suffered an about 60% decrease in growth > from 96 to 97.] This rather gives the lie on its accuracy, doesn't it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 01:41:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01905 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA01893 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:41:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA16368; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:45:45 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730044544.A16278@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:45:44 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <35BF334C.5D5F40BD@ibm.net> <19980729104951.A14984@snark.thyrsus.com> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <19980730000430.E15941@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org>; from Brian Behlendorf on Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 11:36:54PM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Behlendorf : > At 12:04 AM 7/30/98 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > >Oh, dry up. > > That was uncalled for, eh? Possibly. But I get really tired of seeing this exact same question five times a day from people who are clearly smart enough to figure out the answer for themselves, if they'd bothered to pay attention to what the Open Source site itself *says* about its objectives. > I would like to state that I think having the goal of the Open Source pages > be all about convincing companies who sell software that they should > open-source their software, is a mistake. Nevertheless, that is one of my major goals, and has been since Feb 5th. Furthermore, we've racked up some successes. Jini from Sun is the latest. > FreeBSD is an example of a > successful project, with many many commercial interests, but little > commercial interest to "FreeBSD, Inc." What FreeBSD shows the world, and > Apache to a lesser extent, is that no company has to be selling a > "commercial version" of the open-source software in order for it to be a > successful "open source project". True, but irrelevant if your goal is to persuade Mr. Businessperson in the language that matters to *him* -- i.e. that he can make *money*. > So maybe a quicker way of summing this up is to suggest that non-commercial > projects also be capable of being called "software that qualifies". They certainly do, yes. > Perhaps a separate page for just non-commercial (or low-commercial; FreeBSD > Inc. is an Inc.) projects, and linking to them more specifically from the > front page. I'll do this once I get the branding program in place. > Why am I giving away one of my company's strategic advantages, again? > Remind me... The site is designed to show that this question is founded on a false premise; that the theory that closed source is a business advantage is fundamentally bogus. > >This has nothing to do with my personal motivations. It's completely a > >question of how you tune your propaganda to your audience. > > Tell it like it is, yeah. Brian, I have lots of respect for you; Apache is an astonishing success and one of our very best arguments. But that last sarcasm reveals that, like most hackers, you are breathtakingly naive and self-sabotaging about some things. I've been part of the hacker culture for twenty years now. I've seen a lot of brave dreams and brilliant ideas get stomped and disappear down the memory hole because we were out-marketed, out-spun, and out-propagandized by people peddling garbage. And dammit, *I got tired of losing*! And I'm tired of the whole attitude that considers presentation and spin and (gasp) *marketing* so far beneath us that we'll never do it, even though that means that in the real world we're going to lose. When the Netscape release broke, I swore to myself that this time it was going to be different. That I was going to do every freaking thing I could imagine short of lying to make sure that this time, *we* won the propaganda war. You sneer "Tell it like it is, yeah." Well, I *am* telling it like it is -- with the right selection and emphasis to persuade the audiences I'm after. And I am getting results, too. Did you think the recent wave of respect for "open source" in the computer trade press was a random quantum fluctuation or something? And where do you suppose all those recent announcements out of IBM and Oracle and Informix and etc. came from, psychologically speaking? The naive (and wrong) answer is that they happened because the hacker community got its technical ducks in a row. Bullshit. Technically we've been ready for this kind of success since around 1994. What has actually happened is a *change in the climate of opinion* -- one Netscape made conceivable in January, but that took a lot of evangelism to turn from potential to actuality. "Evangelism" is just another term for "propaganda" -- in fact, the latter word originated as a back-formation from the Latin title of the Roman Catholic Office for the Propagation of the Faith. It's marketing. It's spin. It's image- and brand-building. And what's different this time around from all the previous times that the hacker community has taken a run at the reigning Evil Empire is that *this time we're doing it competently*. More specifically, *I* am doing it competently on our behalf. I'm not the only one; Bob Young is a pro at it, and Linus Torvalds has a surprising knack when he chooses to exercise it. But neither of them is pushing it effectively full-time, and neither of them managed to talk around Forbes *and* InfoWorld *and* the Economist *and* the Village Voice (and more than a dozen other national media). The cold fact of the matter is that if you count by column-inches of responsive press (which any PR guy will tell you is a pretty good proxy for business-world mind-share) I am probably the person most responsible for the current boom in interest in our culture -- and that's even if you leave out "The Cathedral and the Bazaar". I'm not asserting this to blow my own horn. I'm telling you this to point out, as forcefully as possible, that you are sneering at success. Our tribe is finally beginning to get the mainstream respect it has long deserved because somebody was both willing and *able* to play the propaganda game the way the big boys do. It didn't have to be me, but I'm the one who got down in the mud and did the job. The Open Source site has been a key part of that job. You want to slang my methods and my "propaganda"? Fine. *Now go do better!* -- Eric S. Raymond No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to the rather startling conclusion that the use of firearms in crime was very much less when there were no controls of any sort and when anyone, convicted criminal or lunatic, could buy any type of firearm without restriction. Half a century of strict controls on pistols has ended, perversely, with a far greater use of this weapon in crime than ever before. -- Colin Greenwood, in the study "Firearms Control", 1972 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 02:05:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA04828 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:05:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA04794 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17246; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Don Wilde cc: "Eric S. Raymond" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:43:43 PDT." <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:04:06 -0700 Message-ID: <17242.901789446@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It also makes no sense since there ARE profit making entities behind FreeBSD, among them being Walnut Creek CDROM, Whistle Communications, Oracle/NCI (who rebadges FreeBSD as "NC/OS"), to name but a few. This really smells to me like Eric is really NOT pro "open source" and is merely masking a Linux die-hard's devotion behind the cause of open source software while erecting artificial barriers to anyone else who wishes to fly under the same banner. That stinks and you can bet that I'm going to publically raise the issue during the upcoming OpenSource event that O'Reilly is hosting. The whole opensource forum shouldn't be about factionalism, but Eric seems to be doing exactly that and I, for one, won't stand for it quietly. If it's a public debate he wants, it's a public debate he'll get. - Jordan > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > > > Don Wilde : > > > Like what you're doing, but why are the BSD's not mentioned in your > > > 'software that qualifies' group? > > > > Because there's no profit-making entity behind it. > > -- > > Eric S. Raymond > > > > The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could nev er > > give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma. > > -- Abraham Lincoln > > Eric, that statement is tragic. To me, the crux of open source must be > that we _all_ are the profit-making entity behind FreeBSD and all other > true freeware. We are not less viable because of a lack of such > corporate connection. Your statement implies that your only interest in > open source is to advance the commercial prospects of a company that > were to release visibility of its code without right of use. That is > anathema to the true spirit of the entire free release movement that > began with that extra computer at Bell Labs. We all profit forom true > release of software... some in money, others in use, still others in > benefit. > > Please, Eric... rethink your position!!! It's fine to study and use that > commercial-openware model, but do not fail to use your podium to also > advance the real computer revolution. Linus started from that tradition, > don't abandon it. > > -- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [dwilde1 @ ibm.net] [ = = ] > /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 02:07:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05132 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05094 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:07:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17270; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:05:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:04:30 EDT." <19980730000430.E15941@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:05:41 -0700 Message-ID: <17267.901789541@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Oh, dry up. You're forgetting that the Open Source pages aren't designed > to make hackers feel warm and fuzzy. They're designed for the *sole > purpose* of persuading corporate types who care about nothing but money. > Before these guys will adopt the Open Source way, they need to believe > doing so will make them piles of (more) money. > > Therefore, not only do I exclude noncommercial projects, I exclude companies > with less than a million dollars a year run rate. Anything that plays into > the Wall Street fat cat's prejudice that we're a bunch of idealists in sandal s > would sabotage the message. But this is ridiculous, Eric, since I've already informed you that SEVERAL FreeBSD vendors have exceeded the $1M run rate (among them, Walnut Creek CDROM) and yet that's still evidently not enough for you. Again, we'll talk about this publically at the OpenSource forum since raising this issue with you privately doesn't seem to be working. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 02:13:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06072 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA06060 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17291; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:11:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brian Behlendorf cc: "Eric S. Raymond" , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:36:54 PDT." <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:11:40 -0700 Message-ID: <17287.901789900@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I would like to state that I think having the goal of the Open Source pages > be all about convincing companies who sell software that they should > open-source their software, is a mistake. FreeBSD is an example of a > successful project, with many many commercial interests, but little > commercial interest to "FreeBSD, Inc." What FreeBSD shows the world, and > Apache to a lesser extent, is that no company has to be selling a > "commercial version" of the open-source software in order for it to be a > successful "open source project". While companies from Oracle to Yahoo to > Hotmail to others are using it to save bundles of money and have greater > reliability in their services, there is no one company selling a > "commercial version" of FreeBSD; and I think FreeBSD shows (even better > than Apache) that such a commercialization is unnecessary. Even though we have indeed passed Eric's "1 million dollar barrier" in direct sales of FreeBSD, I have to also agree with all of the above. There are many less tangible indicators of success, nor is it fair to groups like Apache to say "IBM's backing of you doesn't count since they're not selling $1M worth of Apache servers, they're selling their own product *based* on Apache." I think that Eric has, by inference, chosen to speak for all of us by putting up the OpenSource pages and if that's the case then he'd either better START speaking for all of us or find a number of arrows fired in his direction from the very community he's claiming to support. Will that better the cause of free software or make us look any more professional in the eyes of the "Wall Street fatcats" he claims to be courting here? No, it most definitely will not, and if Eric really DOES have an eye for the "bigger picture" as he claims here, he'll wake up and realize this before creating yet another unwonted and destructive schism in the free software community. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 02:20:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA07186 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:20:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA07181 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02603; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:16:58 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35C03A42.292D1F3D@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:17:54 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Scott I. Remick" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux publicity References: <199807292109.RAA10511@server.computeralt.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [cc's trimmed] Scott I. Remick wrote: > ---------------------------- > > Linux is getting a TON of front-page publicity and support lately. And > so... where's FreeBSD in all this? quietly and happily running most of these new Linux binaries that keep on appearing better than Linux does :-) > Linux is getting a TON of front-page publicity and support lately. Linux users are generally rather good at advocacy, and are helped by the fact that their OS isn't compatible with binaries from other OS so people have to produce a version for Linux - less important with FreeBSD so the name won't even make it into press releases half the time. > I think FreeBSD's PR team needs to send some emails, make some calls, and > start kicking some major butt ;) PR team? :) satisfied users, more like... It will be interesting to see what happens in a few months when everyone that's been given a 2.2.6 CD has had a chance to look around and see for themselves. Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 02:34:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09526 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:34:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA09514 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:34:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17478; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:32:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:45:44 EDT." <19980730044544.A16278@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:32:52 -0700 Message-ID: <17474.901791172@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Eric, I don't think that anyone would argue that advocacy is needed and needed badly - anyone who has watched the ascension of Microsoft using mediocre software and a not-so-mediocre marketing department knows that empirically by now. And I've also spent 20 years in this business and don't like losing either, so you're only preaching to the converted here. What I *don't* like, however, is the fact that you seem to be bent on factionalizing the free Unix community with the same degree of zeal that the commercial OS vendors who brought us the GUI wars and the SYSV/BSD split did with the commercial Unix community. Rather than seeking to divide though the imposition of various arbitrary barriers, you should be seeking to UNITE this community, Eric! I don't care how many of your own self-imposed rules you have to bend in the process, just get everyone pushing behind and in the same direction and you WILL be on the road to winning. Engaging in petty factionalism or accusing anyone who doesn't slavishly back the cause of Linux of not seeing the "big picture" with respect to marketing is as foolish as it is naive and I meant what I said when I stated that I'd take you to the mat over the issue if necessary. So I ask you - are you with us or against us? If you're with us, then PROVE it by helping to push *all* free software not just that which fits your somewhat limited definition of "marketable" free software. If you're against us, then at least have the guts to state it publically so that we can figure out some way of working around you. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 03:04:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12821 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:04:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA12798; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02779; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:44:25 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35C040B0.12056E9C@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:45:20 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith CC: Bill/Carolyn Pechter , "Scott I. Remick" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD advocacy References: <199807292254.PAA01344@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > Hmm, we don't count as "supported" for Netscape? If you go to the Netscape home page and click 'download', the choices are Windows or Mac or 'other available platforms' - click on the 'other platforms' option and you get... Windows or Mac again. If you look a bit more closely and find the link to http://home.netscape.com/download/selectplatform_1_1.html, the only *x's you'll find are AIX, Digital, HPUX, Solaris, SunOS, IRIX, Linux. "If the operating system you need is not shown, you may need to select another version or check the Vendor Supported versions." i.e. BSDi, SCO, Reliant, MP-RAS, Open VMS, OS/2 Warp, Caldera OpenLinux - even if it said "or dig around our ftp site to see what you can find" it would be more use than it is at the moment. Unless you already use FreeBSD (or know that Linux compatibility does work well), you wouldn't know it's supported. I don't know if anything is still happening with the proposed common UNIX-on-x86 binary format - we already pretty much have one, Linux binaries, they just need a different name :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 03:46:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16514 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16503 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03040 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:45:04 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35C04EE9.87A01835@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:46:01 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD not mentioned on NPR "alternative OSes" show References: <35BC49D9.4BE31CDA@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BC7511.9E796F8A@uk.radan.com> <35BC9D50.71576D37@internationalschool.co.uk> <35BDDA22.B69C9DCB@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG just a quick thought - if you send any cd's out, make sure the people getting them know about ppp being linked against the DES libraries just in case, for some strange reason, they don't look at the 2.2.6 errata.txt on ftp.freebsd.org (assuming it's still there ;-) before they try and get ppp working. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 04:04:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA19050 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smok.apk.net (mail.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA19043 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from carbon (as4-14.apk.net [207.54.160.165]) by smok.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1/ts-apk-rel.980722) with SMTP id HAA24083 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:04:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807301104.HAA24083@smok.apk.net> From: "Stuart Krivis" Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:57:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: SCO stupidity Reply-to: stuart@krivis.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01a) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here's some fodder to throw at the suits if they are arguing SCO instead of FreeBSD. I was given an eval copy of Unixware 7. I read some of the docs and installed it. (Not any easier to install than FBSD, BTW.) In looking at the licensing instructions, I read that you get a license key from SCO when you buy the software. Then, when you install, it writes something to your HD and generates a system ID. You call SCO with your license key and the system ID, then they give you a registration key. I called SCO and asked about this. After going through 3 or 4 people who had no clue, they switched me to the licensing center. And I sat on hold for over 10 minutes. (This does not bode well, but wait to see why.) I asked the guy who answered, "What if I have a HD die at 2 AM on Sunday morning?" "I have to replace the HD, then reinstall SCO, so I will have a new system ID, right? And that means I have to call you to get a new reg key before the OS will have everything enabled, right?" He said something about it wasn't very likely I'd have a HD die. I asked if SCO made HDs last longer. He said, "No." Then he told me that I could get a reg key via the web. So I asked if he was willing to guarantee the web site would be up and working 24/7. He said he couldn't guarantee that. So... I said something like, "Well, then I could be completely screwed with a nin- functional OS and have to wait until Monday morning until SCO opens before I can get the key?" He said that was true. ________________________________________ I can just imagine telling users and bosses how you're waiting for the people in California to wake up and come to work on Monday so you can get the server up. And this is an enterprise-class OS? I admit that what I described is not likely, but it could happen. And even a backup won't help because that system ID is on the HD and a new HD means a new system ID means a new reg key required. And the waiting on hold for a long time seems to indicate that they are understaffed at the license center, so you're going to wait for them in any case. Not what you want to do when things are topsy-turvy and the phone is ringing off the hook. SCO is not something I'd want to get involved with. I refuse to get into a position where I am completely dependent upon them to be able to reinstall my OS. Even MS isn't this braindead. -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com [Team APK] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 04:27:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22177 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smok.apk.net (mail.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA22172 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from carbon (as4-14.apk.net [207.54.160.165]) by smok.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1/ts-apk-rel.980722) with SMTP id HAA24756 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807301127.HAA24756@smok.apk.net> From: "Stuart Krivis" Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:20:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD advocacy Reply-to: stuart@krivis.com In-reply-to: <199807292219.SAA23567@shell.monmouth.com> References: <199807292109.RAA10511@server.computeralt.com> from "Scott I. Remick" at Jul 29, 98 05:09:09 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01a) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 29 Jul 98, at 18:19, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > However, Linux has an evangelical bunch of GNUites that are pushing > hard for their "GPL'd everything" mindset. There's also Caldera and Red Oh, get off it! Everybody is slamming GNU all of a sudden. GNU has provided an excellent set of tools that an awful lot of people use daily. People push GPL because it is better than something like the MS EUA. And it _is_ better. There's no point in slamming a whole group of people who feel they are doing good when the real enemy is the group of people who are _against_ open standards. I agree that some people turn GNU into a religion. And I don't like zealots of any stripe. But then some BSDers go just as far in terms of zealotry and devote a lot of time to being anti-GNU. A zealot is a zealot. If you don't like the GPL, then don't use their code in your projects. And maybe you should work on coming up with a catchy abbreviation for the BSD license so it gets some press too. (The BS-L? hehe) > Hat offering "PAID SUPPORT" which counts in the business market. (Read > that as someone to blame, sue and fight if something does not work as > advertised). Accountability is worth a lot when dealing with suits. > wonder if Caldera ever made back the investment with Sun... I've got No. Wabi is no longer considered a current product. They're still selling it, but not actively doing any development. And it is still broken in some ways. (It's inexpensive though...) > Geez. I cursed the Red Hat 5.0 install last week. I've been loading > Linux since SLS and I hadn't seen a Linux install I prefer to sysinstall. RH 5 and 5.1 have decent install routines. I can bring up a Linux box just as fast as a FreeBSD box (faster actually, because installing packages is dog slow in FreeBSD). > > I think FreeBSD's PR team needs to send some emails, make some calls, > > and start kicking some major butt ;) In the Linux world there are several companies that make a profit from selling and promoting Linux. It will be extremely hard to compete with that. They have advocacy and promotion built into their business model and it's a full-time thing for them. They have VARs and co-op advertising plans. I have a RH bumper sticker, an SSC t-shirt, and a Caldera plaque in the lobby. With FreeBSD I just have an OS that quietly sits there and works. :-) > I really think a common binary and installer for Free/Net/OpenBSD might > work if we could unify enough to get this done in the name of commercial > apps. We'd have to lock down this format to NOT change, though. This was the cry of the ISVs when they were originally asked why they didn't port to Linux. "Too many versions and distributions!" Obviously, that has changed somewhat. What FreeBSD needs is more time in the spotlight. Get people using the better mousetrap and the vendors will beat a path to your door. (To mangle an old saying...) -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com [Team APK] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 06:52:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05388 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:52:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from exchangeserver.mpainc.com ([198.246.145.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA05380 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from RickSiple@mpainc.com) Received: by EXCHANGESERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:07:04 -0400 Message-ID: <11FFBC5E23EDD111AF8D006008CEB82D014DBE@EXCHANGESERVER> From: Rick Siple To: "Advocacy Mailing List (E-mail)" Subject: CRL Network Services Carries the Traffic of the Record-Breaking W alnut Creek CDROM FTP Site Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:06:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG News of ftp.cdrom.com's performance have made it beyond our sheltered mailing lists. Although the article centers on CRL, it mentions FreeBSD in a positive light, to say the least. URL: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980730/crl_networ_1.html Excerpt from article: ----- Walnut Creek CDROM set the record of transferring 417 gigabytes of files in one day, surpassing Microsoft Corporation's [Nasdaq:MSFT - news] record of transferring approximately 350 gigabytes of files per day during the Windows95 release. Microsoft used more than 40 server machines to achieve the previous record, while Walnut Creek CDROM used a single 200MHz Intel Pentium Pro processor running FreeBSD. ----- To which I can only say, "Impressive . . . most impressive." (Darth Vader, "The Empire Strikes Back") __________ Rick Siple RickSiple@MPAInc.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 06:54:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05793 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:54:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA05788 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@futuresouth.com) Received: (from tim@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09165; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:54:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980730085434.00432@futuresouth.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:54:34 -0500 From: Tim Tsai To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: .. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 08:02:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13029 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12994 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16527; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:07:15 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730110715.A16515@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:07:15 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Don Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <17242.901789446@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <17242.901789446@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 02:04:06AM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard : > It also makes no sense since there ARE profit making entities behind > FreeBSD, among them being Walnut Creek CDROM, Whistle Communications, > Oracle/NCI (who rebadges FreeBSD as "NC/OS"), to name but a few. And if you look at the `cases' page, you'll see that both Whistle and Walnut Creek are in fact listed there. When I hear from Oracle/NCI, I'll add them too. It's always wise to get your facts straight before flaming. -- Eric S. Raymond Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. -- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 08:07:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13844 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:07:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA13823 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18930; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:06:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:07:15 EDT." <19980730110715.A16515@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:06:04 -0700 Message-ID: <18919.901811164@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > And if you look at the `cases' page, you'll see that both Whistle and > Walnut Creek are in fact listed there. When I hear from Oracle/NCI, > I'll add them too. > > It's always wise to get your facts straight before flaming. Um, Eric, you're the one who made the "argument" that groups wouldn't be worthy of your consideration unless they had $1M/yr run-rates and I was simply citing the above as examples of folks who DO have >$1M/yr run rates with FreeBSD based products. Since you've now stated that these folks are already listed, I have to wonder at the logic of your earlier arguments at all. It's always wise to remain self-consistent in your arguments also. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 08:09:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14299 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14288 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16535; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:14:06 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730111405.B16515@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:14:05 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980730000430.E15941@snark.thyrsus.com> <17267.901789541@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <17267.901789541@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 02:05:41AM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard : > But this is ridiculous, Eric, since I've already informed you that > SEVERAL FreeBSD vendors have exceeded the $1M run rate (among them, > Walnut Creek CDROM) and yet that's still evidently not enough for you. Once again: it most certainly *is* enough for me, as you would know if you had actually read the products page and seen the entries for Walnut Creek and others before popping off. > Again, we'll talk about this publically at the OpenSource forum since > raising this issue with you privately doesn't seem to be working. Unless you enjoy publicly putting your foot in your mouth and chewing on the tasty toenails, I'd recommend against it. -- Eric S. Raymond "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others." -- Thomas Jefferson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 12:15:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28400 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28393 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:15:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19658; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:59:39 EDT." <19980730145939.A16709@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:11:22 -0700 Message-ID: <19654.901825882@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If your "BSD advocates" couldn't meet those tests, that's their > problem and not mine. The Open Source site will stop looking like a > Linux site when, and *only* when, FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD have > substantial and persuasive real-world successes comparable to those of > Linux to display. So let me just clarify one thing then: You also rate such successes ONLY by how much money they make, not by any records they set or significant alliances they make, but purely by dollar value and only by dollar value. Correct? And this dollar value must be at least $1M/yr to rate consideration, also correct? > Open Source Developer Day or anywhere else. The only effect that will > have is to make you sound like a whining, petulant loser -- and to > reinforce the BSD crowd's already ripe reputation for cutting off its > own nose to spite its face. Boy, it sure sounds to me like you have a serious chip on your shoulder where BSD is concerned. Are you sure you're the best person to be "point man" on the open source issue? I can certainly say that I've bent over backwards in my role as FREENIX chairman to include *everyone*, from the most die-hard Linux advocate to members of the OpenBSD team, and I don't think that any other approach would be morally or logically justifiable. I wish that Brian or I could make you see that, but that's evidently a lost cause. > successes and send it to me. Take your best shot. If it meets my > criteria for what's persuasive to non-hackers, I'll edit for look and It sounds like your criteria is purely monetary. How am I to meet such criteria without disclosing confidential sales figures and the like, or are you willing to simply accept my word for it? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 12:15:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28411 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28395 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:15:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19317; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:39:06 EDT." <19980730113906.C16515@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:04:58 -0700 Message-ID: <19313.901821898@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is really rich. It boils down to "Do things my way or I'll > throw a public tantrum just to make us all look like squabbling > pre-schoolers." No, Eric, this boils down to "Eric asks me [at USENIX] to get more FreeBSD advocates to send him material since the opensource web page looks essentially like a Linux web page, I refer said advocates to Eric, they come back and say (in essence) ``Eric told us to get stuffed, what do we do now?''" I wouldn't even be *having* this discussion with you if that hadn't been the case. I also wouldn't even need to "threaten" to take this public if you willing at any stage to be reasonable about this rather than babbling about $1M run rates and why our lack of market leadership meant that you weren't going to waste any time attempting to suggest that OpenSource meant anything but Linux. I just went to your web page and clicked on every link I could find, and the only mention of "BSD" at all is made in a rather tangental fashion - we pop up in the entries for Yahoo, Walnut Creek CDROM and Whistle but nowhere does it say what BSD actually *is*, the businessman reading this being left to essentially puzzle this out for him or herself. Your "history of open source software" also begins rather conveniently in 1998 and completely ignores the long history of U.C. Berkeley releasing code to the general public (in the form of their Net/2 and later 4.4Lite releases). If that's not a slap in the face to the early pioneers of open source, I don't know what is. I'm sorry, but no matter how I read the contents of the opensource site, it's hard to see it as anything but your personal agenda masquerading as more general advocacy and it is THAT which I am most bothered about. You make snide remarks about our always taking the opportunity to miss an opportunity, dividing the community and forming spin-off groups, when that's exactly what you yourself seem to be doing. To call your latest statements "hypocracy" would be too kind! You also accuse me of lacking intelligence here but somehow fail to see that the most "intelligent" thing for you to do would be to say "how can we all win at this or at least come to some accord on the advancement of free software" rather than telling us all of the reasons why we somehow fail to meet your criteria. C'mon, Eric, we're all fighting the same battle here and your intransigence on the issue does no one any good. I don't want a public battle any more than you do, but you seem hell-bent on creating one by adopting a highly skewed and rather "exclusive" view of what constitutes free software and what you're willing to publish on the web site. I wasn't the one to create such a site and claim to speak for the open source community at large, you were. I wasn't the one to start spouting microsoft-speak about market share and why an OS with a rich 20-year history somehow didn't belong on the timeline, you were. Finally, I didn't make the claim that the only reason the opensource web site was perceivably Linux-biased because of lack of BSD-related material, only to reject that material when it was presented, you did. Really rich? Oh, indeed. Only too much so. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 12:20:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29950 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:20:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA29915 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 28152 invoked by uid 24); 30 Jul 1998 18:53:12 -0000 Message-ID: <19980730185312.28151.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:43:02 -0700 To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Don Wilde From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: branding Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980730044544.A16278@snark.thyrsus.com> References: <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <35BF334C.5D5F40BD@ibm.net> <19980729104951.A14984@snark.thyrsus.com> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <19980730000430.E15941@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:45 AM 7/30/98 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >Brian Behlendorf : >> I would like to state that I think having the goal of the Open Source pages >> be all about convincing companies who sell software that they should >> open-source their software, is a mistake. > >Nevertheless, that is one of my major goals, and has been since Feb 5th. >Furthermore, we've racked up some successes. Jini from Sun is the latest. Don't let your goals cloud the reality of the situation, though, or you risk burning bridges you may need to cross later. >> FreeBSD is an example of a >> successful project, with many many commercial interests, but little >> commercial interest to "FreeBSD, Inc." What FreeBSD shows the world, and >> Apache to a lesser extent, is that no company has to be selling a >> "commercial version" of the open-source software in order for it to be a >> successful "open source project". > >True, but irrelevant if your goal is to persuade Mr. Businessperson in the >language that matters to *him* -- i.e. that he can make *money*. Not irrelevant at all - companies are just as interested in saving money as making money. The problem is your "goal" only applies to a small subset of the total base of people and companies who could benefit from using (and being convinced the value of) open-source software. We need to show that *use* of the software is commercially a smart thing, not just the *sale* of such software. This is critical to the health of open-source software, because when people are *using* rather than *selling*, there is no pressure to create proprietary, non-shared value, as there always is in the commercial software industry. >> So maybe a quicker way of summing this up is to suggest that non-commercial >> projects also be capable of being called "software that qualifies". > >They certainly do, yes. But the pages do not reflect this. >And I'm tired of the whole attitude that considers presentation and >spin and (gasp) *marketing* so far beneath us that we'll never do it, >even though that means that in the real world we're going to lose. Eric, I'm absolutely in favor of using marketing language to convince people to see the wisdom of using open-source software. I do more of this myself these days than I do actual programming - sad to say, but true. What I am against is trying to claim that there is one true way to make money at this game; that this only applies to software companies, and that this only applies if you're selling a product whose code comes from an open-source background. >The cold fact of the matter is that if you count by column-inches of >responsive press (which any PR guy will tell you is a pretty good >proxy for business-world mind-share) I am probably the person most >responsible for the current boom in interest in our culture -- and >that's even if you leave out "The Cathedral and the Bazaar". Sigh. I'm *really* not interested in debating who's had more column-inches in what magazines, or that it really makes a real difference. I was very close to the IBM decision to adopt Apache, and did a significant amount of work to make it happen (despite the fact that they could become a direct competitor to my own company's efforts) and I can say that if anything it was done *despite* the publicity around it all. It was done, above all, because it saved IBM money in the short and long term. I'm certainly not going to let your self-aggrandizement suggest that your pages or your concepts are beyond reproach. And if you look back on my statements and comments, they aren't a "slam" so much as a suggestion for clarification. My sneer at the term "propaganda" was because the term often suggests twisting the truth into a lie to serve one's dogmatic purposes. I don't think we need to do that to explain why open source software is a Good Thing, is all I'm saying. Please, by all means, put a pretty ribbon around the package, but don't discount several big, business reasons for using OS software. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 12:23:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01367 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:23:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA01302 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 17526 invoked by uid 24); 30 Jul 1998 19:23:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19980730192318.17525.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:21:29 -0700 To: "Eric S. Raymond" From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: branding Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980730150732.B16709@snark.thyrsus.com> References: <19980730185312.28151.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <35BF334C.5D5F40BD@ibm.net> <19980729104951.A14984@snark.thyrsus.com> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <19980730000430.E15941@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980730044544.A16278@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980730185312.28151.qmail@hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:07 PM 7/30/98 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >Brian Behlendorf : >> We need to show that >> *use* of the software is commercially a smart thing, not just the *sale* of >> such software. > >Have you actually read the Open Source pages? I spend more energy on >this point than I do on the open-source-for-sale stuff. The peer >review and reliability argument I keep making is not aimed primarily >at vendors; it's intended to persuade *users* that thet should be >demanding open source. Yes, I have; again, my argument is that not allowing FreeBSD to be called "Open Source", to carry the "brand", etc, is all I'm objecting to. But you said in a previous note that when you start up the branding program you'll consider a page on these types of projects, so I'm satisfied. Though I still think the pages could use clarification, as I stated previously. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 13:14:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13463 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13450 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16765; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:07:33 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730150732.B16709@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:07:32 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <35BF334C.5D5F40BD@ibm.net> <19980729104951.A14984@snark.thyrsus.com> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <19980730000430.E15941@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980730044544.A16278@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980730185312.28151.qmail@hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19980730185312.28151.qmail@hyperreal.org>; from Brian Behlendorf on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 11:43:02AM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Behlendorf : > We need to show that > *use* of the software is commercially a smart thing, not just the *sale* of > such software. Have you actually read the Open Source pages? I spend more energy on this point than I do on the open-source-for-sale stuff. The peer review and reliability argument I keep making is not aimed primarily at vendors; it's intended to persuade *users* that thet should be demanding open source. -- Eric S. Raymond As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents. -- George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 13:14:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13492 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13456 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA16741; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:59:40 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730145939.A16709@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:59:39 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980730113906.C16515@snark.thyrsus.com> <19313.901821898@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19313.901821898@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 11:04:58AM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard : > No, Eric, this boils down to "Eric asks me [at USENIX] to get more > FreeBSD advocates to send him material since the opensource web page > looks essentially like a Linux web page, I refer said advocates to > Eric, they come back and say (in essence) ``Eric told us to get > stuffed, what do we do now?''" I have at no point rejected any BSD material for the site that met the two public criteria of (a) OSD license conformance, and (b) a profit-making entity with a greater than $1M-a-year run rate. Those two criteria stem directly from my objective, which is: to get open source accepted in the real world, by persuading people who care about making lots of money that it's a good thing for their aim of making lots of money. If your "BSD advocates" couldn't meet those tests, that's their problem and not mine. The Open Source site will stop looking like a Linux site when, and *only* when, FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD have substantial and persuasive real-world successes comparable to those of Linux to display. In the meantime, I am not going to let you or anyone else bully me into giving BSD special treatment that it has not earned -- any more than I would let Linus Torvalds bully me if the situation were reversed. But go ahead and make all the childish threats you like. It won't be any skin off my nose, personally, if you try to make public trouble at Open Source Developer Day or anywhere else. The only effect that will have is to make you sound like a whining, petulant loser -- and to reinforce the BSD crowd's already ripe reputation for cutting off its own nose to spite its face. If, on the other hand, you want to work for the good of the whole community, than I give you a challenge. Write a web page on BSD's successes and send it to me. Take your best shot. If it meets my criteria for what's persuasive to non-hackers, I'll edit for look and feel and add it to the site. Put up or shut up. -- Eric S. Raymond "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." -- John F. Kennedy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 13:14:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13519 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13484 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16607; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:30:44 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730123043.F16515@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:30:43 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980730044544.A16278@snark.thyrsus.com> <17474.901791172@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <17474.901791172@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 02:32:52AM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard : > So I ask you - are you with us or against us? If you're with us, then > PROVE it by helping to push *all* free software not just that which > fits your somewhat limited definition of "marketable" free software. > If you're against us, then at least have the guts to state it > publically so that we can figure out some way of working around you. I will do precisely those things which I believe will advance the cause of open-source software, whether it's Linux or BSD or anything else. I will *not* be bullied into changing either my tactics or my strategy by threats that you will "go to the mat" with me about it. You want more neon for BSD in the Open Source campaign? Here's how to get it: 1. Send more information on BSD-based products that are *making money*, that will tell a convincing story to people who are suits not hackers. 2. Stop whining. I'm giving Linux more play than BSD not out of prejudice but because Linux is *winning*, looking like a success, tapping huge amounts of energy, visibly gaining market share. BSD is not. When I want to persuade people, I talk about winners. 3. Give up on personally pressuring me. All that does is suggest that BSD does not in fact *have* a substantive case. -- Eric S. Raymond You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle for independence. -- Attributed to Charles Austin Beard (1874-1948) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 13:14:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13581 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13511 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16578; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:47:34 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730114734.E16515@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:47:34 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980730110715.A16515@snark.thyrsus.com> <18919.901811164@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <18919.901811164@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 08:06:04AM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard : > Um, Eric, you're the one who made the "argument" that groups wouldn't > be worthy of your consideration unless they had $1M/yr run-rates and I > was simply citing the above as examples of folks who DO have >$1M/yr > run rates with FreeBSD based products. Since you've now stated that > these folks are already listed, I have to wonder at the logic of your > earlier arguments at all. Let's review. You flame me for supposed prejudice against BSD and complain that I supposedly ignore BSD projects that meet the run-rate criterion. I then point out that those listings are already present on the products page. Oops! And you're attacking the logic of *my* arguments? -- Eric S. Raymond Alcohol still kills more people every year than all `illegal' drugs put together, and Prohibition only made it worse. Oppose the War On Some Drugs! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 13:14:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13640 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13580 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:14:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16562; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:39:07 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730113906.C16515@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:39:06 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brian Behlendorf Cc: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> <17287.901789900@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <17287.901789900@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 02:11:40AM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard : > I think that Eric has, by inference, chosen to speak for all of us by > putting up the OpenSource pages and if that's the case then he'd > either better START speaking for all of us or find a number of arrows > fired in his direction from the very community he's claiming to > support. Will that better the cause of free software or make us look > any more professional in the eyes of the "Wall Street fatcats" he > claims to be courting here? No, it most definitely will not, and if > Eric really DOES have an eye for the "bigger picture" as he claims > here, he'll wake up and realize this before creating yet another > unwonted and destructive schism in the free software community. This is really rich. It boils down to "Do things my way or I'll throw a public tantrum just to make us all look like squabbling pre-schoolers." Jordan is now displaying the kind of superb advocacy and people skills that blew BSD's technical lead and left the leading position in the open-source community lying in the road for the Linux people to pick up. My roots are in BSD (4.1c on a Vax back in 1982). BSD is the only Unix I have kernel code in (I wrote your speaker driver). But you guys remind me of that British diplomat's crack about the Palestinians -- "they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity". From the days of Jolix onwards you've been your own worst enemies, wasting your energy on feuds and bickering and founding the spinoff-group-of-the-week instead of getting the job done. Now Jordan is threatening to do it again. How very intelligent. -- Eric S. Raymond The possession of arms by the people is the ultimate warrant that government governs only with the consent of the governed. -- Jeff Snyder To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 14:20:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26525 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26520 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:20:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01106 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:20:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:20:04 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: questions.... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, Yesterday a notice appeared on Freshmeat about an OS chart. The goal of said chart was to compare and contrast different OS's. I went and looked and it had Linux, SCO and NT. I wrote the author and asked if he would like to add FreeBSD to the chart as a representative of the *BSD's. He replied "that'd be great" so now I want to check my data before I send it to him to make sure there are no errors. The chart itself can be found at: http://www.xunil.com/xunil/oschart.html Below is the data I've created for the FreeBSD portion of the chart. I've tried to fill in most of the data (by looking through the handbook/mail list archive etc) but there are a few things I couldn't find or new nothing about. If you can spot any errors or fill in any blanks I'd appreciate it, then I'll send it back to him and it will get added to the chart! Blanks/uncertain portions indicated w/a # in the first column in the line. Note some of the questions are for the author of the chart. Thanks a lot! Brett ----------------------FreeBSD portion of the chart--------------------- Release 2.2.7 Based on BSD-4.4 Date of release July 28, 1998 Cost ------ Cost $39.95 (for any number of users) Software Development kit included Supported standards ------------------- Unix branding none Security none #Other ?? UFS ?? (they have the Linux File system listed) System Limits ------------- Minimum CPU 80386 # Min/Max RAM 5 MB/ ?? at least 1 GB ?? Minimum disk 60 MB # Maximum supported CPU's 1 (what's the max in current???) Available Clustering none Hardware support ---------------- ISA/PCI/EISA yes # IDE modes supported PIO 1-4 ? Microchannel no ISA "Plug-n-play" yes PC cards (PCMIA) limited I20 no Tape/CDROM jukeboxes yes Hot swap cards no Sound cards many Scanners some Video capture limited Filesystems ------------ Standard type UFS # Journaling no ? # Maximum file/partition size 2 GB/512 GB (in current - ref Dyson email in mail list archive - stable # ?) Fast check/repair no Disk mirroring yes Per-user disk quotas yes Multi-disk filesystem yes # Available RAID levels 0,1, others? Mount DOS/CDROM filesystem yes/yes Support RockRidge/Joliet CDROM yes/yes # Backup software included BRU ?? # Maximum filesystem swap area ? Hot swap disk support no Installation ------------ Native package format pkg_add (in tgz) Also reads none # Can query/validate packages yes? (I'm not sure what he means here) # Floppyless install if using no (is this right?) bootable CDROM # Floppies required (min/max) 1/( for everything? - TONS - I think I saw Greg Lehey say this was around 1400 w/ the ports collection) Install from remote TCP server yes Install from remote IPX server no # Express choices available ? not sure what this means ? Development ----------- C Compiler included in base (gcc) Generates FreeBSD a.out (ELF in 3.0) Standard debugging tools gdb,xxgdb # Integrated development envir. ? Java Development Kit yes # Available Java tools in house or is this 3rd party? POSIX-compliant shell bash available (csh is not POSIX right?) Perl yes Other Scripting languages Python, Scheme, Tcl GUI ---- X Server supplied XFree86 Std. GUI environment in development (X-desktop contest) Optional environments KDE, AfterStep, WindowMaker, Blackbox, FVWM*, icewm, etc Standard toolkit (depends on above) Optional X toolkits Gtk, Tk, Qt, Motif, Lesstif Connectivity ------------ NFS server/client yes/yes NIS server/client yes/yes NetWare server/client yes/yes (netcon) CIFS (SMB) server/client yes/yes (Samba) Bootp/DHCP yes/yes Macintosh networking yes Network services ---------------- Standard web server Apache Optional web server Netscape (BSDi under emulation) Telnet server/client yes/yes Network Address Translation yes Firewall services yes Base SMTP server sendmail Optional SMTP server qmail POP/IMAP server yes Mailing list management yes (majordomo) # Windows Internet Name Server ? Internet Domain Name Server yes PPP client/server yes/yes # DCE yes? Emulation --------- # Windows 3.1 no? Windows95/98/NT limited (Wine) DOS yes (pcemu in 2.2.7, rundos in 3.0) SCO UnixWare/OpenServer/Xenix yes Linux ELF yes Other BSDi,NetBSD System administration --------------------- GUI-Based no Character-Based yes Web-Based no Enterprise Network Admin optional (scotty) # Printed manuals ? do they mean a paper manual or man pages To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 14:48:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02714 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02604 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:47:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id RAA03442; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:48:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Rick Siple cc: "Advocacy Mailing List (E-mail)" Subject: Re: CRL Network Services Carries the Traffic of the Record-Breaking W alnut Creek CDROM FTP Site In-Reply-To: <11FFBC5E23EDD111AF8D006008CEB82D014DBE@EXCHANGESERVER> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Rick Siple wrote: > News of ftp.cdrom.com's performance have made it beyond our sheltered > mailing lists. Although the article centers on CRL, it mentions FreeBSD > in a positive light, to say the least. > > URL: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980730/crl_networ_1.html This may just be me. My cache may be hosed, Im not sure but when you read this article it has a link to ftp.cdrom.com as http://ftp.cdrom.com. that goes to some ansi group's page :) I think this needs to be fixed altho i dont know how. "Walnut Creek CDROM was founded in August 1991..." The paragraph starting with this line, has a link to ftp.cdrom.com as http://ftp.cdrom.com which like I said took *me* to some ansi groups page. hehe I dont think that's what CRL wanted it pointing to. Does anyone else see this or is it just me off in lala land again? Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 15:14:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06868 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:14:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06857 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:14:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA16913; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:00:49 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730170048.A16844@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:00:48 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980730145939.A16709@snark.thyrsus.com> <19654.901825882@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19654.901825882@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 12:11:22PM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard : > So let me just clarify one thing then: You also rate such successes > ONLY by how much money they make, not by any records they set or > significant alliances they make, but purely by dollar value and only > by dollar value. Correct? And this dollar value must be at least > $1M/yr to rate consideration, also correct? The 1M/year is a proxy for what I'm really trying to accomplish. If you can persuade me that other success criteria would be just as persuasive to J. Random Suit, I'll cheerfully add them to the formula. So it's not quite as open-and-shut as all that. > Boy, it sure sounds to me like you have a serious chip on your > shoulder where BSD is concerned. I'm not hostile to the BSD community -- I started out as part of it myself nearly a decade before Linux. I am pretty exasperated with the mess it's been making since 1989. You guys had a better kernel than Linux, a stronger engineering tradition, and (on average) smarter developers. But you guys blew it; you wasted your energy on factional squabbles and personality conflicts, and let Linux blow right past you and grab all the mind-share. I think that's really sad -- so sad that it makes me angry. Part of me wishes I lived in the alternate universe where the BSD people kept their shit together and Linus Torvalds never happened (or he became a brilliant BSD hacker instead of writing his own kernel). In a lot of ways that would have been a better outcome than what we've got. It isn't what actually happened, though, and as a strategist for open source I have to deal with reality. The reality is that Linux has done what the BSD efforts never delivered; it has actually achieved the critical mass to make it a credible player not just among hackers and hobbyists and partisans but in the real world as well. Maybe BSD will make that nut in the future. I hope so, if for no other than to keep the Linux crowd from getting fat and happy and complacent. But I'm not really optimistic about this. > Are you sure you're the best person > to be "point man" on the open source issue? Jordan, if somebody else were to step up and do a better job I would vanish offstage so fast your head would spin. I don't *want* this freaking job; I'd rather be hacking. The only reason I'm doing this is because it desperately needed to be done and I truly didn't see anybody else as well qualified to try. Here's what you'd need from somebody to do a better job: (1) Person must be an able speaker with experience at talking to the press. (2) Person must be an effective writer and propagandist. (3) Person must be able to identify with and speak the language of non-hacker, non-academic, non-techie types. (4) Person must have enough hacker-community steet cred so the hackers will back him/her as a legitimate ambassador. (5) Person must have enough prior reputation *outside* the hacker community that reporters and suits and other non-hackers will have some reason to initially accept him/her as a credible witness. (6) Person must be independently wealthy or otherwise have enough free time to do advocacy effectively full-time. (7) Person must not be be too busy with other things. Those are pretty tough criteria. Some I worked for. Some of them I only meet by accident of personality and history. Now point me at somebody else who meets all of them -- *please*. I sure as hell don't want to be fielding calls from journalists for the rest of my life :-(. > It sounds like your criteria is purely monetary. How am I to meet > such criteria without disclosing confidential sales figures and the > like, or are you willing to simply accept my word for it? See above on the criteria. I'd personally take your word for sales figures without a murmur, but my intended audience has no reason to. -- Eric S. Raymond All governments are more or less combinations against the people. . .and as rulers have no more virtue than the ruled. . . the power of government can only be kept within its constituted bounds by the display of a power equal to itself, the collected sentiment of the people. -- Benjamin Franklin Bache, in a Phildelphia Aurora editorial 1794 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 16:35:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22217 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22211 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:35:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA116930; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:35:28 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980730145939.A16709@snark.thyrsus.com> References: <19313.901821898@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 11:04:58AM -0700 <19980730113906.C16515@snark.thyrsus.com> <19313.901821898@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:39:23 -0400 To: "Eric S. Raymond" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: branding Cc: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 2:59 PM -0400 7/30/98, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > If your "BSD advocates" couldn't meet those tests, that's their > problem and not mine. The Open Source site will stop looking like > a Linux site when, and *only* when, FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD have > substantial and persuasive real-world successes comparable to those > of Linux to display. > > In the meantime, I am not going to let you or anyone else bully me > into giving BSD special treatment that it has not earned -- any more > than I would let Linus Torvalds bully me if the situation were reversed. Most of my job (what I get paid for) deals with providing support for things on Solaris, AIX, and MacOS. Lately there's also a little WinNT being thrown into the mix. I have a minor interest in FreeBSD, but that's not where I get my salary from. I've only been following the FreeBSD mailing lists for a month or two now. That said, your efforts with the opensource site is losing crediability with me. The web pages at www.opensource.org do not frustrate me as much as they seem to bother Jordan. I do notice, for instance, that the "white papers" section includes something on Yahoo and FreeBSD, so I don't see you has overtly hostile to FreeBSD. I admit I do find it odd that the site makes so little mention of Walnut Creek as a place *running* FreeBSD to get it's business done. Your info on it just says that it "sells CD-ROMs featuring Linux and FreeBSD", but for all your web pages say, the *business* might be run off IBM Mainframes running MVS. There was just a press release at Yahoo on how WC's ftp site just transferred more information in a single day then any other site has ever transferred -- breaking a record set by Microsoft during the release of Win95. Microsoft set their record with 40 machines, WC is running a single FreeBSD machine. I think that is an example that business people can relate to, even if they don't ever expect to make a million dollars selling Open Source software. In any case, that wasn't the main point I wanted to make. Every message I've seen from you in this thread makes me think "This is a guy who has his fixed vision for his web site". This is fine, but it is quite different than "This is a guy who is interested in the success of open source software". I don't know Jordan all that much more than I know you, but at least he leaves me with the impression that he's *trying* to help out *all* interesting open-source efforts. You sound like a guy who has one particular set of open-source products that "you like", and are determined to promote them over any and all products, including other open-source products. Now, that's perfectly fine if you are claiming to be a spokesman for those products, but it really is a bit odd if you imagine yourself as a spokesman for "open source" as a concept. It is even more odd that Jordan, who is definitely a spokesman for FreeBSD, comes across as more "generically open source"-ish than you, when you claim to be for open source as a whole. So, I don't mind what you're doing with your site, I don't intend to threaten you with anything (I don't even know what I'd threaten you with), but every message you type makes you seem less crediable to me. That's just my opinion, of course. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 16:40:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23083 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:40:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23077 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id QAA13226; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:40:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:40:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-Reply-To: <19980730145939.A16709@snark.thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >Jordan K. Hubbard : >> No, Eric, this boils down to "Eric asks me [at USENIX] to get more >> FreeBSD advocates to send him material since the opensource web page >> looks essentially like a Linux web page, I refer said advocates to >> Eric, they come back and say (in essence) ``Eric told us to get >> stuffed, what do we do now?''" > >I have at no point rejected any BSD material for the site that met the two >public criteria of (a) OSD license conformance, and (b) a profit-making >entity with a greater than $1M-a-year run rate. > www.yahoo.com www.hotmail.com /* Look, MS uses FreeBSD. Talk about your 1M business case to the wall street sharks */ www.best.com www.whistle.com www.linkexchange.com www.mediacity.com www.ispchannel.com www.moviedatabase.com /* not sure about 1M */ -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 16:52:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25455 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:52:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25370 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:52:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02819; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807302349.QAA02819@implode.root.com> To: Open Systems Networking cc: Rick Siple , "Advocacy Mailing List (E-mail)" Subject: Re: CRL Network Services Carries the Traffic of the Record-Breaking W alnut Creek CDROM FTP Site In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:48:12 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:49:51 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Rick Siple wrote: > >> News of ftp.cdrom.com's performance have made it beyond our sheltered >> mailing lists. Although the article centers on CRL, it mentions FreeBSD >> in a positive light, to say the least. >> >> URL: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980730/crl_networ_1.html > >This may just be me. My cache may be hosed, Im not sure but when you read >this article it has a link to ftp.cdrom.com as http://ftp.cdrom.com. that >goes to some ansi group's page :) >I think this needs to be fixed altho i dont know how. > >"Walnut Creek CDROM was founded in August 1991..." The paragraph starting >with this line, has a link to ftp.cdrom.com as http://ftp.cdrom.com >which like I said took *me* to some ansi groups page. hehe >I dont think that's what CRL wanted it pointing to. >Does anyone else see this or is it just me off in lala land again? Thanks for pointing that out. This is actually a "feature" in Netscape, where it is prepending the http:// ...this was not in the news article. ftp.cdrom.com is running with some old WWW pages and has some configuration problems that cause it to display some archive-maintainer's pages (artpacks). The real WWW server for cdrom.com was moved to a new machine, www.cdrom.com, several weeks ago. I just killed the WWW server on wcarchive, which will make http://ftp.cdrom.com non-functional (which is better than putting up the artpacks pages!). Thanks again for bringing it to my attention. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 17:26:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01138 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:26:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01124 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:26:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA17207; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:30:44 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730203044.B17137@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:30:44 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Garance A Drosihn , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19313.901821898@time.cdrom.com>; <19980730113906.C16515@snark.thyrsus.com> <19313.901821898@time.cdrom.com> <19980730145939.A16709@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Garance A Drosihn on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 07:39:23PM -0400 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn : > I admit I do find > it odd that the site makes so little mention of Walnut Creek as a > place *running* FreeBSD to get it's business done. Your info on it > just says that it "sells CD-ROMs featuring Linux and FreeBSD", but > for all your web pages say, the *business* might be run off IBM > Mainframes running MVS. You raise an interesting point that hadn't occurred to me before, and I thank you. If you'd like to suggest an amendment to the Walnut Creek language on cases.html that makes this point in a concise and forceful way, I'll take it. > In any case, that wasn't the main point I wanted to make. Every > message I've seen from you in this thread makes me think "This is > a guy who has his fixed vision for his web site". This is fine, but > it is quite different than "This is a guy who is interested in the > success of open source software". This tells me that you're missing a lot of context, and don't understand how the Open Source pages fit into the overall strategy I've been pursuing ever since the Netscape announcement. Since January I've been pursuing several parallel tracks. All are aimed at changing the basic assumptions of the software industry and software consumers so that open, peer-reviewed sources become the norm rather than the exception. 1. Further develop the theoretical arguments I made in "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" for the superiority of open-source development and the *necessity* of going to it if we want decent reliability. 2. Make personal contact with leading decision-makers in business and government and pitch them directly for the concept. 3. Wage a PR campaign to turn the press around so that, rather than being contemptuous and hostile to "free software", they're interested in and supportive of "open source". 4. Educate the hacker community about what it takes to sell this concept -- how to speak language that stirs interest rather than hostility in J. Random Suit. 5. Appeal to businesspeoples' self-interested desire to make money by persuading them that open source is a better economic deal than closed. The Open Source website pushes all of these to some extent, but it's primarily focused on objective 5. One of the most important rules for effective propaganda is *stay on your message* (this is also why all the magazine interviews I give sound a lot alike). For good propaganda, dedicate any given presentation to one or two simple ideas that you hammer home repeatedly and as thoroughly as you can, as opposed to diffusing your energy through a complex presentation. Now...in each of those five channels, the set of "simple ideas" I'm pushing is slightly different, tuned for different audiences. Taken all together they add up to a comprehensive case for open source, but if you're only sampling one channel you'll probably see what looks like a "fixed vision". (Don't take my word for this. Go browse "Homesteading the Noosphere" and compare it to the Open Source website. Then read my InfoWorld or TechWeb interviews.) So it's true I have a "fixed vision" for the website. The Open Source site's idea is "you can make more money using open source". If I tried doing other things there (like a lot of up-front stuff about nonprofits) I would risk falling off message and losing effectiveness with the target sudience. But you shouldn't confuse this with the *whole* message of the campaign. -- Eric S. Raymond What if you were an idiot, and what if you were a member of Congress? But I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 17:36:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02385 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:36:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02360 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:36:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA17243; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:41:36 -0400 Message-ID: <19980730204135.F17137@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:41:35 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980730145939.A16709@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 04:40:17PM -0700 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jan B. Koum : > www.yahoo.com > www.hotmail.com /* Look, MS uses FreeBSD. Talk about your 1M business > case to the wall street sharks */ > www.best.com > www.whistle.com > www.linkexchange.com > www.mediacity.com > www.ispchannel.com > www.moviedatabase.com /* not sure about 1M */ One-paragraph squibs on each of these from anybody with enough knowledge to generate them will be cheerfully accepted. -- Eric S. Raymond Everything you know is wrong. But some of it is a useful first approximation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 17:43:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03371 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03362 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:43:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id RAA26729; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:42:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:42:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brian Behlendorf , Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-Reply-To: <19980730204135.F17137@snark.thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Then count on me doing so early next week. (Sorry, going to Vegas for a weekend). -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." "Write longer sentences - they are paying us a lot of money" On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >Jan B. Koum : >> www.yahoo.com >> www.hotmail.com /* Look, MS uses FreeBSD. Talk about your 1M business >> case to the wall street sharks */ >> www.best.com >> www.whistle.com >> www.linkexchange.com >> www.mediacity.com >> www.ispchannel.com >> www.moviedatabase.com /* not sure about 1M */ > >One-paragraph squibs on each of these from anybody with enough >knowledge to generate them will be cheerfully accepted. >-- > Eric S. Raymond > >Everything you know is wrong. But some of it is a useful first approximation. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 18:02:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06663 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:02:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06645 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:02:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29820; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:05:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd029388; Thu Jul 30 17:03:49 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05919; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:03:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807310003.RAA05919@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: branding To: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:03:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, brian@hyperreal.org, dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980730170048.A16844@snark.thyrsus.com> from "Eric S. Raymond" at Jul 30, 98 05:00:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The 1M/year is a proxy for what I'm really trying to accomplish. If you > can persuade me that other success criteria would be just as persuasive to > J. Random Suit, I'll cheerfully add them to the formula. So it's not quite > as open-and-shut as all that. I would like to suggest published Venture Captalization as an alternate criteria. By limiting it to run-rate-per-year, you are missing out on many new entries into the market, and by the time you cover them, they will be "old news". It would be nice if thyour site were enough "on the edge" to be considered a Journalistic resource. This could only aid you by providing a more public platform from which to speak. I think, specifically, the release of Kaffe, the first cleanroom JAVA implementation is worthy of mention. Despite thier positioning as a competitor to my own employer, I'd note Freegate as well, even if the numbers aren't there yet. I'd also note the NetBSD based "Interceptor" box from Vixie Enterprises, Inc., as well as the company that contracts them, the Internet Software Consoritium. > Jordan, if somebody else were to step up and do a better job I would > vanish offstage so fast your head would spin. I don't *want* this > freaking job; I'd rather be hacking. I, for one, heartily appreciate this position. I did both, first with the 386BSD FAQ, and then with the 386BSD patchkit (which Jordan should remember, being one of my downstream victims after Nate Williams. 8^). I *do* object to the door entry fee going to FSF, on political grounds, and would much prefer to bankroll the necessary documents and affidavits proving the clean-rooming Kaffe, or the XFree86 consortium, both of which are rather apolitical (the first is GPL license, the second MIT license; I'm not playing favorites). That said, I'm probably going to end up paying my $10, even if it does go to the people who refused to accept patches in support of BSD a.out based shared libraries. 8-(. In any case, if the run rate criteria was relaxed, even if only in the case of other purely economic criteria, I think feathers would be smoothed on both sides here... Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 18:40:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12401 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12388 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id SAA26128; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:46:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980730184622.K16073@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:46:22 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Taylor , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: questions.... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Brett Taylor on Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 03:20:04PM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 30, 1998 at 03:20:04PM -0600, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi all, > > Yesterday a notice appeared on Freshmeat about an OS chart. The goal of > said chart was to compare and contrast different OS's. I went and looked > ----------------------FreeBSD portion of the chart--------------------- > > Release 2.2.7 > Based on BSD-4.4 > Date of release July 28, 1998 > > Cost > ------ > Cost $39.95 (for any number of users) The cost of the OS is free. Getting the Walnut Creek CDs of FreeBSD costs $39.95. > Installation > ------------ > Native package format pkg_add (in tgz) > Also reads none I believe we can read Red Hat RPMs as well. Can anyone confirm? > Network services > ---------------- > # DCE yes? DCE is not yet available. Jim Doyle is working on FreeDCE, which is DCE for Linux and FreeBSD. The Linux version works reasonably well, from what I understand, but the FreeBSD variant is still in progress and should be available shortly. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Bureaucrats cut red tape -- lengthwise. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 21:51:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00106 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:51:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29999 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:51:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04572 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:51:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (jreynold@hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.7.6/8.7.3paulmail) with ESMTP id VAA64329 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:49:58 -0700 Received: by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.8.6/) id AAA00863; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:49:54 -0400 (EDT) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13761.19697.672742.189489@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:49:53 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Record! X-Mailer: VM 6.59 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm *sure* that most of the people reading this list have already seen this URL, but for those of you who haven't ... http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980730/crl_networ_1.html COOL! -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds C-TEAM CLE - Central Design Services | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 22:42:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05116 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:42:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05089 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:42:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA02628; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:42:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:42:08 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Terry Lambert cc: "Eric S. Raymond" , jkh@time.cdrom.com, brian@hyperreal.org, dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-Reply-To: <199807310003.RAA05919@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think, specifically, the release of Kaffe, the first cleanroom > JAVA implementation is worthy of mention. Despite thier positioning > as a competitor to my own employer, I'd note Freegate as well, even > if the numbers aren't there yet. I'd also note the NetBSD based > "Interceptor" box from Vixie Enterprises, Inc., as well as the > company that contracts them, the Internet Software Consoritium. Hmmm, this mention of NetBSD reminds me of the StrongARM. I think DEC met the $1M/year threshhold quite some time ago. I know I cannot speak fo rthe NetBSD folks, but perhaps someone can prod one of them to speak up. In any case here's the URL to DEC's developers page describing their application of NetBSD to the DNARD: http://www.research.digital.com/SRC/iag/info/new-soft.html Also, with respect to Whistle, the products.html page could mention one of their numerous awwards. The ommission stands out to those who know of these awards when the summary above Whistle has just such a link. In any case, here's the link to Whistle's awards. The "PC Computing - 1997 MVP BEST NETWORKING HARDWARE WINNER" is a good one to mention. http://www.whistle.com/company/comp-itnews.html#Awards On the serious side, all flames and headted arguments aside, www.opensource.org has a credability problem with a respectable number of people. I believe Eric when says he is working hard on the site and the promotion of open software. However, counting on near 100% self selection to get your project or companies' work branded/listed is going to skew respresentation. This is even more likely given that the site is new. Self selection, even with a filter, is still just that, self selection. One way to greatly improve the credentials of the site in a qualitative manner rather than quanitative one, would be to actively seek out those "interesting" projects and technologies and work them into the site, whether they ask to be or not. I am sure no matter how much nois you make, that some important and listable sites will not hear the call. If the big Linux vendors hadn't heard of opensource.org and never asked to get listed, would they have been listed anyways? My guess is yes, they would have. That same benefit of the doubt needs to be extended in more directions. Every direction. When it is, fewer people will argure that opensource.org's protrayal of reality and the world as we know it are different. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 23:04:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07307 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07302 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA17590; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:08:54 -0400 Message-ID: <19980731020854.A17573@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:08:54 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Adrian Filipi-Martin , Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, brian@hyperreal.org, dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <199807310003.RAA05919@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from ADRIAN Filipi-Martin on Fri, Jul 31, 1998 at 01:42:08AM -0400 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ADRIAN Filipi-Martin : > > I think, specifically, the release of Kaffe, the first cleanroom > > JAVA implementation is worthy of mention. Despite thier positioning > > as a competitor to my own employer, I'd note Freegate as well, even > > if the numbers aren't there yet. I'd also note the NetBSD based > > "Interceptor" box from Vixie Enterprises, Inc., as well as the > > company that contracts them, the Internet Software Consoritium. When I get paragraphs on these from people in the know, I'll put them in. > Also, with respect to Whistle, the products.html page could > mention one of their numerous awwards. The ommission stands out to those > who know of these awards when the summary above Whistle has just such a > link. In any case, here's the link to Whistle's awards. The "PC > Computing - 1997 MVP BEST NETWORKING HARDWARE WINNER" is a good one to > mention. That's a good idea and I've added it. It will show up in the next update. > One way to greatly improve > the credentials of the site in a qualitative manner rather than > quanitative one, would be to actively seek out those "interesting" > projects and technologies and work them into the site, whether they ask to > be or not. I can't do it. There aren't enough hours in the day. Look, I still have to maintain Sunsite and fetchmail. There's the Trove project. And I'm spending a lot of time on the road (you get one guess why). If I weren't so far behind we'd have a logo and an Open Source branding program by now. > If the big Linux vendors hadn't heard of opensource.org and never > asked to get listed, would they have been listed anyways? Yes, because I already knew about them. The problem is that with the best will in the world, I just don't have time to go off and hunt products that I don't know about that might be eligible. You guys are going to have to feed me BSD stuff if you want to see the things I don't naturally trip over carried on the site. This isn't hostility, it's just press of work. -- Eric S. Raymond Courage is resistance of fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 23:11:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08211 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08196 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA02784; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:11:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:11:30 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Open Systems Networking cc: "Advocacy Mailing List (E-mail)" , Rick Siple Subject: Re: CRL Network Services Carries the Traffic of the Record-Breaking W alnut Creek CDROM FTP Site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Rick Siple wrote: > > > News of ftp.cdrom.com's performance have made it beyond our sheltered > > mailing lists. Although the article centers on CRL, it mentions FreeBSD > > in a positive light, to say the least. > > > > URL: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980730/crl_networ_1.html Very nice. I was looing at the stats on the emsphone page and it shows 6086.4 kB/s as the current daily average bandwidth. (6086 * 24 * 3600) / 1024 = 513506 kB/day Are the stats on emsphone this inaccurate, or is there that much more traffice aside from ftp transfers? It's hard to imagine the results if this throughput were sustained for a whole month. It would be 15TB/month of traffic! Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 23:29:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09842 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:29:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA09837 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA02799; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:28:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:28:39 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: Terry Lambert , jkh@time.cdrom.com, brian@hyperreal.org, dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-Reply-To: <19980731020854.A17573@snark.thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > ADRIAN Filipi-Martin : > > One way to greatly improve > > the credentials of the site in a qualitative manner rather than > > quanitative one, would be to actively seek out those "interesting" > > projects and technologies and work them into the site, whether they ask to > > be or not. > > I can't do it. There aren't enough hours in the day. Right, I understand this is the real sticking problem for so many of us. Do you think you will bring any underlings on-board to help with the more mundane tasks like this? I guess this has already been considered, but it might be a good task for an intern type if such a thing could ever work out. Who knows... maybe, someone will get you one if you put it on you x-mas list. cheers, Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 23:35:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10552 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:35:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10525 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:35:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA17701; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:40:05 -0400 Message-ID: <19980731024003.A17696@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:40:03 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Terry Lambert , jkh@time.cdrom.com, brian@hyperreal.org, dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980731020854.A17573@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from ADRIAN Filipi-Martin on Fri, Jul 31, 1998 at 02:28:39AM -0400 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ADRIAN Filipi-Martin : > > I can't do it. There aren't enough hours in the day. > > Right, I understand this is the real sticking problem for so many > of us. Do you think you will bring any underlings on-board to help with > the more mundane tasks like this? Are you volunteering? -- Eric S. Raymond Probably fewer than 2% of handguns and well under 1% of all guns will ever be involved in a violent crime. Thus, the problem of criminal gun violence is concentrated within a very small subset of gun owners, indicating that gun control aimed at the general population faces a serious needle-in-the-haystack problem. -- Gary Kleck, "Point Blank: Handgun Violence In America" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 30 23:47:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12032 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:47:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA12019 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:47:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA02869; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:47:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:47:22 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: Terry Lambert , jkh@time.cdrom.com, brian@hyperreal.org, dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding In-Reply-To: <19980731024003.A17696@snark.thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > ADRIAN Filipi-Martin : > > > I can't do it. There aren't enough hours in the day. > > > > Right, I understand this is the real sticking problem for so many > > of us. Do you think you will bring any underlings on-board to help with > > the more mundane tasks like this? > > Are you volunteering? I really wish I could. It'd be more interesting than some of the things I'm working on presently. The fact that I'm still dorking around with conultant work at 3am should give you some indication of how busy I am. Hang up a help-wanted sign. You might get lucky. When I get finished helping a local non-profit in a few months, I may take you up on this yet. cheers, Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 31 00:54:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18784 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:54:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18728 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:53:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA02294; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:23:18 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA11998; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:23:17 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980731172317.C11960@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:23:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Eric S. Raymond" Cc: Terry Lambert , jkh@time.cdrom.com, brian@hyperreal.org, dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <19980731024003.A17696@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from ADRIAN Filipi-Martin on Fri, Jul 31, 1998 at 02:47:22AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 31 July 1998 at 2:47:22 -0400, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > >> ADRIAN Filipi-Martin : >>>> I can't do it. There aren't enough hours in the day. >>> >>> Right, I understand this is the real sticking problem for so many >>> of us. Do you think you will bring any underlings on-board to help with >>> the more mundane tasks like this? >> >> Are you volunteering? > > I really wish I could. It'd be more interesting than some of the > things I'm working on presently. The fact that I'm still dorking around > with conultant work at 3am should give you some indication of how busy I > am. > > Hang up a help-wanted sign. You might get lucky. When I get > finished helping a local non-profit in a few months, I may take you up on > this yet. I suppose there's no money in this, right? That would keep away even a lot of idealists who are level-headed enough to realise that they have to eat. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 31 01:41:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22061 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:41:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22056 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA08932; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807310837.BAA08932@implode.root.com> To: Adrian Filipi-Martin cc: Open Systems Networking , "Advocacy Mailing List (E-mail)" , Rick Siple Subject: Re: CRL Network Services Carries the Traffic of the Record-Breaking W alnut Creek CDROM FTP Site In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:11:30 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:37:36 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Very nice. I was looing at the stats on the emsphone page and it >shows 6086.4 kB/s as the current daily average bandwidth. > > (6086 * 24 * 3600) / 1024 = 513506 kB/day > > Are the stats on emsphone this inaccurate, or is there that much >more traffice aside from ftp transfers? Reprint of a personal reply I made to Greg Lehey on the same question: Firstly, I should have said "averaged during the day around 6.5MB/sec". The traffic levels at night were somewhat lower - about 4.5MB/sec. Second, the "417GB" figure is the total bytes for files that were successfully transfered. It does not include TCP/IP packet overhead, packet retransmits, data that is not part of the files, or incomplete/aborted file transfers. This all adds up to 20% or more of overhead. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 31 07:17:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29849 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:17:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29843 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:17:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03415; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:16:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:16:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: Open Systems Networking cc: Rick Siple , "Advocacy Mailing List (E-mail)" Subject: Re: CRL Network Services Carries the Traffic of the Record-Breaking W alnut Creek CDROM FTP Site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Rick Siple wrote: > > > News of ftp.cdrom.com's performance have made it beyond our sheltered > > mailing lists. Although the article centers on CRL, it mentions FreeBSD > > in a positive light, to say the least. > > > > URL: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980730/crl_networ_1.html > > This may just be me. My cache may be hosed, Im not sure but when you read > this article it has a link to ftp.cdrom.com as http://ftp.cdrom.com. that > goes to some ansi group's page :) > I think this needs to be fixed altho i dont know how. You're not the only one that encountered the surprise when clicking on that link. I thought for a second my cache was hosed too, or (ya, right) some miscreants actually broke into ftp.cdrom.com. I don't see anything bad or offending on that page at all (just my opinion of course), but it just seems very out of place. :-) > "Walnut Creek CDROM was founded in August 1991..." The paragraph starting > with this line, has a link to ftp.cdrom.com as http://ftp.cdrom.com > which like I said took *me* to some ansi groups page. hehe > I dont think that's what CRL wanted it pointing to. > Does anyone else see this or is it just me off in lala land again? Also known as.. uuh.. artpacks.acid.org? Checked the DNS entry and it sure enough points to wcarchive.cdrom.com. My question is, how did these guys get _lucky_ enough to have their page hosted on such a great server? :-) Hmmm.. after just now attempting to look at the page again (looked at it yesterday), I'm getting 'connection refused'. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 31 07:54:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05304 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05297 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-42.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.42]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA69292; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:53:58 GMT Message-ID: <35C1DA89.7E2199DA@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:54:01 -0700 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eric S. Raymond" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding References: <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <35BF334C.5D5F40BD@ibm.net> <19980729104951.A14984@snark.thyrsus.com> <35BFEBEF.82BA6DC6@ibm.net> <19980730000430.E15941@snark.thyrsus.com> <19980730065206.11785.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980730044544.A16278@snark.thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Re: Your answer post to Brian - PAX, Eric. We do not wish to see you stop what you're doing, because it is heading in the right direction. Noone here denies the incredible paradigm shift that you are indeed a prime mover in. We just want you to remember your roots, which include the fact that you're standing on the backs (metaphorically) of all those who gave freely before you. You do deserve a lot of credit for your actions, and I give it freely because you've earned it with sweat and brains. All we are saying is that for the price of a little HTML -- which we will gladly submit -- you can present a more balanced view of the Open Source world. Most money-suckers will actually use FreeBSD because of the poison-pill (GPL) thoughtfully included with every copy of Linux. Great. Let them. We believe commercial users DO return source back to the tree, and we are the stronger for it. Brian's great comment about the 1000 $4M companies that benefit from freeware is so appropriate. Very few might be Yahoo stock-market darlings, but I personally know that FreeBSD and Apache are prime reasons my employer is gaining worldwide business, and WOW! our networks have never run so smoothly!!! What we ask will cost you nothing and will benefit us greatly. In fact, you'll stop getting nagged. (!) All we ask is that you use your center-stage presence give us a leg up as a part of your project, because you know in your heart that true freeware IS the One True Way. I'm sure you'd put your sandals back on if you could! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [dwilde1 @ ibm.net] [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 31 12:51:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13915 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:51:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA13908 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 1688 invoked by uid 24); 31 Jul 1998 19:51:16 -0000 Message-ID: <19980731195116.1687.qmail@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:51:19 -0700 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: need someone to give a session on BSD speed tuning at ApacheCon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So as some of you may know, my company (C2) is producing a first-ever Apache Conference in October in San Francisco. This is being done as a fundraiser for the Apache Group, and also to raise awareness of Apache and its user community. We are planning tracks on dynamic content, security, performance, and case studies. We have a general, open call for papers (http://www.apachecon.com/ will have this, plus more general info about the conference) but I would like to specifically invite people from the BSD community to speak about BSD-specific performance tuning tips/techniques, and BSD-specific security. If this sounds interesting to you, let me know privately by sending email to this address. If you want to present on a different topic (i.e., case studies, etc) then respond to the call for papers form. Thanks! And by the way, you're all invited, it should be *really* interesting. I can't spill any beans on keynoters yet, but I'm really excited about who we've got lined up... Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Common sense is the collection of prejudices | brian@apache.org acquired by the age of eighteen." - Einstein | brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 31 16:54:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27282 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (ghana-176.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.228.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27277 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:54:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA18536; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:55:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:55:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Brett Taylor cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: questions.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Brett Taylor wrote: [..] > ISA/PCI/EISA yes > # IDE modes supported PIO 1-4 ? Current supports UDMA pretty well, and I think perhaps 2.2.7 does too. > Microchannel no > ISA "Plug-n-play" yes > PC cards (PCMIA) limited There's also "3rd party" support with the PAO stuff. > Filesystems > ------------ > Standard type UFS > # Journaling no ? Nope. > # Backup software included BRU ?? What about dump, pax, and tar? > Installation > ------------ > Native package format pkg_add (in tgz) > Also reads none RPM too. > # Can query/validate packages yes? (I'm not sure what he means here) > # Floppyless install if using no (is this right?) > bootable CDROM > # Floppies required (min/max) 1/( for everything? - TONS - I think I saw > Greg Lehey say this was around 1400 > w/ the ports collection) No this is for a install off of cdrom. > Install from remote TCP server yes > Install from remote IPX server no > # Express choices available ? not sure what this means ? > > Development > ----------- > C Compiler included in base (gcc) Theoretically you could add TenDRA up there too. > Generates FreeBSD a.out (ELF in 3.0) > Standard debugging tools gdb,xxgdb ddd and ups too. > POSIX-compliant shell bash available (csh is not POSIX right?) pdksh is somewhat posix compliant I think. > Perl yes > Other Scripting languages Python, Scheme, Tcl Modula-3, lisp, rexx, haskell, basic.. > Network services > ---------------- > Optional SMTP server qmail And smail too. > Emulation > --------- > # Windows 3.1 no? Wabi under Linux emu perhaps, and Wine does Win16 emu too IIRC. - alex | "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern | | technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." | | Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 31 22:37:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04802 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04796 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:36:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21546; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:36:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35C2A96B.21171C81@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:36:43 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Taylor CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: questions.... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Taylor wrote: > ----------------------FreeBSD portion of the chart--------------------- > > Release 2.2.7 > Based on BSD-4.4 Based on 4.4 BSD Lite (in case any lawyers read this) > Date of release July 28, 1998 > > Cost > ------ > Cost $39.95 (for any number of users) Cost Free - CD-ROM media available for $5 - $40 > Software Development kit included > > Supported standards > ------------------- > Unix branding none Perhaps we should come up with our own brand that will encompass BSD-derived systems? > Security none > #Other ?? UFS ?? (they have the Linux File system > listed) none - Linux File System Standard is a standard for file system layout. We *could* show a list of RFCs a mile long, if you really want to put something here. ;^) > System Limits > ------------- > Minimum CPU 80386 386sx ;^) > # Min/Max RAM 5 MB/ ?? at least 1 GB ?? > Minimum disk 60 MB > # Maximum supported CPU's 1 (what's the max in current???) > Available Clustering none > > Hardware support > ---------------- > ISA/PCI/EISA yes > # IDE modes supported PIO 1-4 ? IDE modes supported PIO 1-4, UDMA > Microchannel no > ISA "Plug-n-play" yes > PC cards (PCMIA) limited > I20 no > Tape/CDROM jukeboxes yes > Hot swap cards no > Sound cards many > Scanners some > Video capture limited > > Filesystems > ------------ > Standard type UFS > # Journaling no ? Definitely no. > # Maximum file/partition size 2 GB/512 GB (in current - ref Dyson email > in mail list archive - stable > # ?) > Fast check/repair no > Disk mirroring yes > Per-user disk quotas yes > Multi-disk filesystem yes > # Available RAID levels 0,1, others? > Mount DOS/CDROM filesystem yes/yes > Support RockRidge/Joliet CDROM yes/yes > # Backup software included BRU ?? tar, pax, cpio, dump/restore (If they count "MSBackup" as backup software, *any* of the above will do) > # Maximum filesystem swap area ? > Hot swap disk support no > > Installation > ------------ > Native package format pkg_add (in tgz) > Also reads none > # Can query/validate packages yes? (I'm not sure what he means here) yes - pkg_info is a query tool > # Floppyless install if using no (is this right?) > bootable CDROM yes (works like a charm) > # Floppies required (min/max) 1/( for everything? - TONS - I think I saw > Greg Lehey say this was around 1400 > w/ the ports collection) > Install from remote TCP server yes > Install from remote IPX server no > # Express choices available ? not sure what this means ? yes - the novice and custom installations save quite a few questions vs. the 'expert' installation > > Development > ----------- > C Compiler included in base (gcc) > Generates FreeBSD a.out (ELF in 3.0) > Standard debugging tools gdb,xxgdb > # Integrated development envir. ? xwpe, Emacs (ouch! turn that flame down, dag nabit!) > Java Development Kit yes > # Available Java tools in house or is this 3rd party? Isn't the Sun Java IDE running (or at least limping) with jdk-1.1.6? > POSIX-compliant shell bash available (csh is not POSIX right?) > Perl yes > Other Scripting languages Python, Scheme, Tcl > > GUI > ---- > X Server supplied XFree86 > Std. GUI environment in development (X-desktop contest) twm + xterm. Better ones to follow, after the contest. > Optional environments KDE, AfterStep, WindowMaker, Blackbox, FVWM*, > icewm, etc ctwm, olvwm, etc., etc., ad nauseum. > Standard toolkit (depends) Athena > Optional X toolkits Gtk, Tk, Qt, Motif, Lesstif > > Connectivity > ------------ > NFS server/client yes/yes > NIS server/client yes/yes > NetWare server/client yes/yes (netcon) > CIFS (SMB) server/client yes/yes (Samba) > Bootp/DHCP yes/yes > Macintosh networking yes > > Network services > ---------------- > Standard web server Apache > Optional web server Netscape (BSDi under emulation) > Telnet server/client yes/yes > Network Address Translation yes > Firewall services yes > Base SMTP server sendmail > Optional SMTP server qmail smail, smtpd, exim (my ISP uses this and loves it) > POP/IMAP server yes yes, several: qpopper, cucipop, imap-uw, cyrus > Mailing list management yes (majordomo) > # Windows Internet Name Server ? Does Samba include this now? > Internet Domain Name Server yes > PPP client/server yes/yes > # DCE yes? > > Emulation > --------- > # Windows 3.1 no? > Windows95/98/NT limited (Wine) > DOS yes (pcemu in 2.2.7, rundos in 3.0) > SCO UnixWare/OpenServer/Xenix yes > Linux ELF yes > Other BSDi,NetBSD > > System administration > --------------------- > GUI-Based no > Character-Based yes > Web-Based no > Enterprise Network Admin optional (scotty) > # Printed manuals ? do they mean a paper manual or man pages Yes - "The Complete FreeBSD", O'Reilly 4.4 BSD manuals, plus on-line man pages -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 01:11:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA17362 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 01:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from docenti.ing.unipi.it (docenti.ing.unipi.it [131.114.28.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17357 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 01:11:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gabriele@ing.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (gabriele@localhost) by docenti.ing.unipi.it (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA11500; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:21:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:21:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Gabriele Cecchetti To: Wes Peters cc: Brett Taylor , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: questions.... In-Reply-To: <35C2A96B.21171C81@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > Brett Taylor wrote: > > ----------------------FreeBSD portion of the chart--------------------- [...] > > Mount DOS/CDROM filesystem yes/yes (FAT,VFAT,FAT32) > yes, several: qpopper, cucipop, imap-uw, cyrus [...] > > # Windows Internet Name Server ? > > Does Samba include this now? Yes. [...] > > Web-Based no FreeEasy ? Cheers Gabriele ========================================================================== Ing. Gabriele Cecchetti Millennium Information Engineering email: gabriele@ing.unipi.it Via Lenin 127 http://www.ing.unipi.it/~gabriele 56010 Pappiana, PISA (Italy) Tel: +39-50-862316, +39-347-7180757 ========================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 02:25:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22971 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22951; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA01504; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:24:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980801022441.A1493@mooseriver.com> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:24:41 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Retail outlets for FreeBSD Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at (http://www.freebsd-support.com/Retail.html). Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.8 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 03:30:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28725 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from transbay.net (synergy.transbay.net [209.133.53.223]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA28714; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bh@synergy.transbay.net) Received: from localhost (bh@localhost) by transbay.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA07121; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bh@synergy.transbay.net) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:34:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Brandon Huey To: Josef Grosch cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Retail outlets for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19980801022441.A1493@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: X-Copyright: (C)1998 Brandon Huey; Forwarding prohibited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG i see a good supply of _The Complete FreeBSD_ at the Borders in Emeryville, CA on a regular basis. i try to move a copy or two into the linux area, leaving a few in the proximity of _magic garden_ and the likes, where they normally are. i don't know the address.... it's part of the Emeryville Public Market on Shellmound -bh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 08:13:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19230 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19225 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:13:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA02208; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808011513.IAA02208@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Brian Behlendorf" , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 11:13:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD advocacy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:53:42 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote: >Again, so long as the API's stay as consistant as possible, it really >doesn't matter. >.... Interoperability is the key. I agree partially. I think things such as binary compatibility and common package/ports mechanisms would benefit all BSDs. Eventually I hope we see some major vendors in the BSD camp and they only deal in Binaries. If we could guarantee all BSD will remain binary compatible (at least within Intel) and easy to port/compile from one to another this would account for a bigger market for vendors. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 08:29:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20410 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20400 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:29:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03019; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808011527.IAA03019@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "John Reynolds~" Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 11:27:25 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Record! Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:49:53 -0700 (MST), John Reynolds~ wrote: >I'm *sure* that most of the people reading this list have already seen >this URL, but for those of you who haven't ... > > http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980730/crl_networ_1.html Thanks for the URL I had not seen this. Now the question is how do we get this to the attention of reviewers and magazine writers. I tried a few times to write to a few magazine writers and they did not seem to have much interest in writing a note about FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 09:35:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25280 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25270 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06160; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808011634.JAA06160@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Eric S. Raymond" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 12:34:39 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: branding Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:30:43 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >1. Send more information on BSD-based products that are *making money*, >that will tell a convincing story to people who are suits not hackers. How about changing that to Open source which is currently used in high profile companies. By "used" I don't mind they have a test box in a dusty corner. I mean companies like Yahoo which run their business (all their http servers with FreeBSD) on Open Source programs. Just because no one made money by selling a program to a company it doesn't mean it is not making inroads into the mainstream. For isntance if a company finds out they can save millions of dollars by using Open Source programs, your pages could show them how other companies HAVE SAVED that money. This would present a better argument for them to try the software than to say that some company made 1M selling services/products based on that Open Source program. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 09:51:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26469 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:51:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com ([192.190.237.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26464 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20904; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:55:57 -0400 Message-ID: <19980801125556.A20894@snark.thyrsus.com> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:55:56 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: branding References: <199808011634.JAA06160@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199808011634.JAA06160@newsguy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Sat, Aug 01, 1998 at 12:34:39PM -0400 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Francisco Reyes : > On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:30:43 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > >1. Send more information on BSD-based products that are *making money*, > >that will tell a convincing story to people who are suits not hackers. > > How about changing that to Open source which is currently used in > high profile companies. > > By "used" I don't mind they have a test box in a dusty corner. I mean > companies like Yahoo which run their business (all their http servers > with FreeBSD) on Open Source programs. I'm willing to carry stuff like this. Yahoo's case study is already on the site. -- Eric S. Raymond The people cannot delegate to government the power to do anything which would be unlawful for them to do themselves. -- John Locke, "A Treatise Concerning Civil Government" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 10:39:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01570 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:39:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01565 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:39:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reyesf@newsguy.com) Received: (from reyesf@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09500; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808011739.KAA09500@newsguy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Eric S. Raymond" Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 13:39:21 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: branding Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:55:56 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >> By "used" I don't mind they have a test box in a dusty corner. I mean >> companies like Yahoo which run their business (all their http servers >> with FreeBSD) on Open Source programs. > >I'm willing to carry stuff like this. Yahoo's case study is already on >the site. Great! However, the point I was trying to make was that your criteria for software to include on the site was based on companies with sales of 1M for services/open source derived programs (or something simmilar). I was suggesting to include this second criteria in addition to the 1M one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 11:16:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04770 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org ([206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04764 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27458; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:16:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199808011816.MAA27458@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 12:16:16 -0600 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Maybe it's time to use Microsoft's tactics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to a recent article by Dan Gillmor at http://www.sjmercury.com/columnists/gillmor/docs/dg073198.htm (See the bit at the bottom), Microsoft's PR agency assigns an "owner" to every article it perceives as negative. This person is responsible for contacting the author and doing MS evangelism. Perhaps it's time to fight fire with fire, doing this for both Microsoft AND Linux. Every time an article mentions Linux and not FreeBSD, or mentions problems with NT, the author should be contacted with an admonishment to try FreeBSD. On the other hand, authors who DO mention FreeBSD should be encouraged to do more of it. The effort could be organized through this list. How about it? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 14:04:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22072 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:04:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22051 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA08509; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:04:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:04:16 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Brett Glass cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Maybe it's time to use Microsoft's tactics In-Reply-To: <199808011816.MAA27458@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > According to a recent article by Dan Gillmor at > > http://www.sjmercury.com/columnists/gillmor/docs/dg073198.htm > > (See the bit at the bottom), Microsoft's PR agency assigns an "owner" to > every article it perceives as negative. This person is responsible for > contacting the author and doing MS evangelism. > > Perhaps it's time to fight fire with fire, doing this for both Microsoft > AND Linux. Every time an article mentions Linux and not FreeBSD, or > mentions problems with NT, the author should be contacted with an > admonishment to try FreeBSD. On the other hand, authors who DO mention > FreeBSD should be encouraged to do more of it. The effort could be > organized through this list. > > How about it? Something like this might work if it were possible to include sample CD's. Just a thought. I'm guessing it would be to WC's advantage to support something like this. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 14:40:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24477 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24472 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:40:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20385; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:40:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd020354; Sat Aug 1 14:40:12 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA25943; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:39:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199808012139.OAA25943@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Maybe it's time to use Microsoft's tactics To: adrian@ubergeeks.com Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:39:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "ADRIAN Filipi-Martin" at Aug 1, 98 05:04:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Every time an article mentions Linux and not FreeBSD, or > > mentions problems with NT, the author should be contacted with an > > admonishment to try FreeBSD. On the other hand, authors who DO mention > > FreeBSD should be encouraged to do more of it. The effort could be > > organized through this list. > > Something like this might work if it were possible to include > sample CD's. Just a thought. I'm guessing it would be to WC's advantage > to support something like this. If you have a frisbee you want to throw, make sure you are not in a full parking lot before you yell "watch this!". In other words, pick only the battles where you are sure you are going to win. It would be a spectacular error to find an article about a situation where NT and Linux do poorly, and insist the author try FreeBSD, only to have it do even more poorly. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 15:12:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26932 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:12:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smok.apk.net (mail.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26921 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:12:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.20]) by smok.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1/ts-apk-rel.980722) with ESMTP id SAA29391; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by junior.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA23166; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:12:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:12:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: Terry Lambert cc: adrian@ubergeeks.com, brett@lariat.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Maybe it's time to use Microsoft's tactics In-Reply-To: <199808012139.OAA25943@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > In other words, pick only the battles where you are sure you are > going to win. It would be a spectacular error to find an article > about a situation where NT and Linux do poorly, and insist the > author try FreeBSD, only to have it do even more poorly. How likely is it that FBSD will do well in a situation where Linux doesn't? -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 15:35:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29000 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:35:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28985; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA09027; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 08:05:12 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA20560; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 08:05:11 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980802080511.H11960@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 08:05:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brandon Huey , Josef Grosch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Retail outlets for FreeBSD References: <19980801022441.A1493@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Brandon Huey on Sat, Aug 01, 1998 at 03:34:22AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 1 August 1998 at 3:34:22 -0700, Brandon Huey wrote: > > i see a good supply of _The Complete FreeBSD_ at the Borders in > Emeryville, CA on a regular basis. i try to move a copy or two into the > linux area, leaving a few in the proximity of _magic garden_ and the > likes, where they normally are. :-) Yes, I do this, too, though I suppose I have an ulterior motive. They're also available at Borders in Austin, TX. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 15:51:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00672 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from led.zeppelin.net (star085116.galstar.com [204.251.85.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00608; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:51:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from connor@led.zeppelin.net) Received: from os2 ([10.0.0.2]) by led.zeppelin.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07045; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:47:49 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from connor@led.zeppelin.net) Message-Id: <199808012247.RAA07045@led.zeppelin.net> From: "Adam Brown" To: "Brandon Huey" , "Greg Lehey" , "Josef Grosch" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 17:41:21 -0600 Reply-To: "Adam Brown" X-Mailer: PMMail 1.96a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Retail outlets for FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Yes, I do this, too, though I suppose I have an ulterior motive. > >They're also available at Borders in Austin, TX. > >Greg I've also heard that Barnes and Noble carries it, but they don't stock it on their shelves unfortunately. I suppose most bookstores could special order it for just about anyone. -- Adam Brown -- connor@led.zeppelin.net Zeppelin Internet Services -- where our motto is RTFM http://www.zeppelin.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 15:57:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01019 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:57:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01000; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:57:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-31.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.80]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA05368; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:56:09 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980801160243.0069d458@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 16:02:43 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , Brandon Huey , Josef Grosch From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: Retail outlets for FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980802080511.H11960@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980801022441.A1493@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:05 AM 8/2/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Saturday, 1 August 1998 at 3:34:22 -0700, Brandon Huey wrote: >> >> i see a good supply of _The Complete FreeBSD_ at the Borders in >> Emeryville, CA on a regular basis. i try to move a copy or two into the >> linux area, leaving a few in the proximity of _magic garden_ and the >> likes, where they normally are. I've seen a couple at the Borders in Long Beach, Ca. Although, they were all out the last time I've been there. Joey > >:-) > >Yes, I do this, too, though I suppose I have an ulterior motive. > >They're also available at Borders in Austin, TX. > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 19:00:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16918 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org ([206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16908 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04640; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 20:00:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199808020200.UAA04640@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 19:59:57 -0600 To: Stuart Krivis , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Maybe it's time to use Microsoft's tactics Cc: adrian@ubergeeks.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199808012139.OAA25943@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:12 PM 8/1/98 -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote: >How likely is it that FBSD will do well in a situation where Linux >doesn't? If it doesn't become more likely than it is now, FreeBSD is pretty much doomed to obscurity forever. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 19:00:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16955 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:00:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org ([206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16936 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:00:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04637; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:59:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199808020159.TAA04637@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 19:58:49 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , adrian@ubergeeks.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Maybe it's time to use Microsoft's tactics Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199808012139.OAA25943@usr07.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:39 PM 8/1/98 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >In other words, pick only the battles where you are sure you are >going to win. It would be a spectacular error to find an article >about a situation where NT and Linux do poorly, and insist the >author try FreeBSD, only to have it do even more poorly. I was thinking mainly about things that NT does poorly, Linux does OK, and FreeBSD does brilliantly. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 19:42:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21512 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:42:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21505 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:42:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-30.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.30]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA101956 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 02:41:56 GMT Message-ID: <35C3D24E.91673CEC@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 19:43:26 -0700 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Maybe it's time to use Microsoft's tactics References: <199808012139.OAA25943@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan has already assisted in helping me (and others) add Nick Petreley to our ranks. Although he has backslid a bit (notably in his Science Friday TV interview), his commentary has become much more unbiased and indeed very positive where due. We also tried the editor of Network World, but even CD WITH book AND a personal appearance by yours truly at his pet trade show wasn't enough to get a mention from him. :( I did give dozens of CD's out to real corporate IT guys at my speech, though, so we gained ground! Still, though, the effort is worth pursuing and does produce results. Jordan IS there behind us in this. Make the initial comment and suggest a review copy. If you get even a nybble, Jordan will be there. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [dwilde1 @ ibm.net] [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Aug 1 19:44:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21894 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:44:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21888 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:44:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-30.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.30]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA95906; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 02:44:43 GMT Message-ID: <35C3D2F5.1EA46BDD@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 19:46:13 -0700 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Retail outlets for FreeBSD References: <19980801022441.A1493@mooseriver.com> <3.0.1.32.19980801160243.0069d458@pacificnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG HEY JOEY, KILL THE CROSS POSTS!!! Thanks, buddy! :-))) If they're all out, that means they're selling. Excellent! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [dwilde1 @ ibm.net] [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message