From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 20 20:22:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11242 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (castles236.castles.com [208.214.165.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11203 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02832; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809210326.UAA02832@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Amancio Hasty cc: Mike Smith , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:22:50 PDT." <199809210222.TAA02158@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:26:54 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Redirected to -advocacy, where this sort of invective is probably more appropriate. > I am the wrong person for this task because I don't have time. Well a fat lot of use you are then. 8) Seriously, what value is there in saying "someone should do something about this"? Of bloody course someone should, and the only someone to do anything has done everything I can, and the last thing I need is someone that's unwilling to do *anything* telling me that something more needs to be done. You still need to learn that being an advocate means *doing* something, not whining about what you think "someone else" should be doing. > Perhaps, someone from the commercial sector can step in : > Oracle, Yahoo, Whistle or Juniper. > > All of the above companies have architect class engineers and it is really > to their advantage to contribute something in this area. Oracle are no longer interested in FreeBSD (see John Dyson'ss swansong), Whistle are at the other end of the market (embedded systems) and UDI would be an unnecessary expense, Juniper aren't likely to care (UDI doesn't address any of their problems). Yahoo would only be interested if there was something UDI had to offer them (and right now that's nothing). UDI will come to FreeBSD when either a) it ceases to be vapourware and/ or b) it has something to offer someone such that it becomes worthwhile to invest in it. My goal was to convince Intel that a deliverable for the BSD environment would be more widely useful as a reference implementation than one for the Linux environment. I was unable to make any headway despite researching the matter intensely some time back; someone with no coding skills but some technical marketting acumen and more free time to spend on might-be's would have a better chance of coming up with the goods. > Amancio > > P.S.: I will try to review the UDI stuff this week and post a review > however please don't hold your breath because among many things > that I am doing is buying a house. Don't waste your time reviewing it. Campaign with Intel, SCO and Adaptec to have the UDI reference implementation deliverable on a BSD, not on Linux. > > > > UDI is a reasonably nice framework. Someone with some time on their > > > > hands might want to try implementing it for FreeBSD. Last time I read > > > > the drafts, there were still significant omissions, particularly > > > > addressing the way that a UDI driver might integrate with the system > > > > > > All the more reason for someone with some time to get involved now rather > > > than later and finding out that there are significant architecture drawbacks > > > which could possibily make UDI unfeasible for FreeBSD. > > > > > > Someone could probably make a case for FreeBSD given that Yahoo , Oracle, > > > and a few other large companies are using FreeBSD and making money where > > > as in the Linux camp thats probably a rarity . > > > > I've applied the pressure I've been able to, given the time. It may be > > too late, but if you want to campaign on the issue, the person at Intel > > to talk to is "Saxena, Sunil" . You might want > > to include Mark Bradley and Kurt Gollhart > > in your discussions. Note that these last two are "big > > cheese" technical people (Kurt is SCO Core OS Architect), so you want to > > be concise and avoid bullshitting them. > > > > Note that most of the guts of a UDI interface to an operating system is > > system specific; you're providing the mapping between the UDI API and > > the host API. In some cases, the mapping will be complex (eg. the UDI > > SCSI driver backend to CAM), in others it will be trivial. > > -- > > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 20 20:33:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13177 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:33:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13172 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:33:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02430; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199809210332.UAA02430@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Mike Smith cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:26:54 PDT." <199809210326.UAA02832@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:32:21 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Redirected to -advocacy, where this sort of invective is probably more > appropriate. > > > I am the wrong person for this task because I don't have time. > > Well a fat lot of use you are then. 8) > > Seriously, what value is there in saying "someone should do something > about this"? Of bloody course someone should, and the only someone to > do anything has done everything I can, and the last thing I need is > someone that's unwilling to do *anything* telling me that something > more needs to be done. Pipe down , don't take it personally . > You still need to learn that being an advocate means *doing* something, > not whining about what you think "someone else" should be doing. I do not need to learn that lesson for I have gone thru the exercise that you have outlined. Curious , what are the reasons that the UDI project is preferring to do the UDI implementation on Linux ? Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 20 20:54:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16548 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:54:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16509; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:53:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.50]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA16782; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:56:04 +0500 Message-ID: <3605CD09.C8681327@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:50:33 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard References: <199809210326.UAA02832@word.smith.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK, I also believe this belongs in advocacy...JIC someone doesn't understand http://www.sco.com/udi/ We need a big group of users explaining why FreeBSD would be a good platform to target the new device standard, and why they should use a BSD license. Pedro. /* end of discussion in -hackers */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 20 21:27:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20885 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:27:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20846 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:27:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20747; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:26:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:50:33 CDT." <3605CD09.C8681327@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:26:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20744.906352008@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > We need a big group of users explaining why FreeBSD would be a good > platform to target the new device standard, and why they should use a > BSD license. Lead away, maestro! :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 20 21:36:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23058 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (castles236.castles.com [208.214.165.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22993 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:36:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03200; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809210440.VAA03200@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Amancio Hasty cc: Mike Smith , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:32:21 PDT." <199809210332.UAA02430@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:40:54 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Redirected to -advocacy, where this sort of invective is probably more > > appropriate. > > > > > I am the wrong person for this task because I don't have time. > > > > Well a fat lot of use you are then. 8) > > > > Seriously, what value is there in saying "someone should do something > > about this"? Of bloody course someone should, and the only someone to > > do anything has done everything I can, and the last thing I need is > > someone that's unwilling to do *anything* telling me that something > > more needs to be done. > > Pipe down , don't take it personally . I'm not taking it personally, I'm giving it personally. If you don't have the inclination to do anything about it, shut up about how someone else should. Apart from being a trivial restatement of the bleeding obvious, it's hypocritical in the extreme. > > You still need to learn that being an advocate means *doing* something, > > not whining about what you think "someone else" should be doing. > > I do not need to learn that lesson for I have gone thru the exercise that > you have outlined. You're not demonstrating the symptoms. > Curious , what are the reasons that the UDI project is preferring to do the > UDI implementation on Linux ? Mindshare. There are more rabid Linux fans in the right places than there are FreeBSD fans. The decision to use Linux wasn't reached out of any considered or rational process, rather it was siezed on as the "only" free platform to do the reference implementation to. I haven't said anything about this previously simply because I haven't had the time to do the scutwork, nor have I been successful in encouraging the few contacts that I have within Project UDI to put the proposal forward. Like USB, this is going to be one of those matters where we trail rather than lead, because we're all too busy using the system rather than developing it. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 20 21:56:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26488 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:56:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26480 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:56:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02820; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199809210455.VAA02820@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Mike Smith cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:40:54 PDT." <199809210440.VAA03200@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:55:44 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You're not demonstrating the symptoms. I really don't think so and you have resorted to the lowest rational and immature level -- time to get some sleep 8) > > Curious , what are the reasons that the UDI project is preferring to do the > > UDI implementation on Linux ? > > Mindshare. There are more rabid Linux fans in the right places than > there are FreeBSD fans. The decision to use Linux wasn't reached out > of any considered or rational process, rather it was siezed on as the > "only" free platform to do the reference implementation to. Now this is good stuff and is very tempting to intervene. > > I haven't said anything about this previously simply because I haven't > had the time to do the scutwork, nor have I been successful in > encouraging the few contacts that I have within Project UDI to put the > proposal forward. You have outlined for us what we are up against and that is a very good start. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 20 22:06:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27726 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (castles236.castles.com [208.214.165.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27715 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03461; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:11:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809210511.WAA03461@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Amancio Hasty cc: Mike Smith , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:55:44 PDT." <199809210455.VAA02820@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:11:01 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > You're not demonstrating the symptoms. > > I really don't think so and you have resorted to the lowest rational > and immature level -- time to get some sleep 8) Could be. Bear in mind that as part of what I "do for the Project" I spend a lot of time chasing things like this; I don't tend to make more noise about it than I can justify, but I do tend to be offended when people that are clearly doing nothing tell me that effectively I'm not doing my job. Why do I spend so much time asking for "owners" for particular issues? Why, for example, given our not insubstantial userbase, is nobody willing to sit down with a couple dozen commercial Linux applications and list the ones that do and don't work, and try to make educated guesses about why so that we can either help them with directed fixes, or file records as to why we can't support the app? Where are all these "advocates" that supposedly think FreeBSD is so great? Why aren't they helping us? Bastards. 8) 8) 8) > > > Curious , what are the reasons that the UDI project is preferring to do the > > > UDI implementation on Linux ? > > > > Mindshare. There are more rabid Linux fans in the right places than > > there are FreeBSD fans. The decision to use Linux wasn't reached out > > of any considered or rational process, rather it was siezed on as the > > "only" free platform to do the reference implementation to. > > Now this is good stuff and is very tempting to intervene. If you're willing to champion the issue, please do. Start with the Project UDI homepage (http://www.sco.com/udi), and prepare an open letter to them. Get it into the FreeBSD quickie newsletter, and perhaps elsewhere. Don't rail about how a BSD license would be better - instead make it clear that the reference implementation shouldn't be encumbered by the GPL as it will hinder its incorporation into other systems. Encourage them to consider the BSD kernel as an alternative, or to publish without including any GPL code in their reference. These people will respond well to "this approach will promote UDI better". They will not respond well to "Linux has cooties". -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 20 22:11:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28178 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:11:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28159 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:11:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02874; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199809210510.WAA02874@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Mike Smith cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:11:01 PDT." <199809210511.WAA03461@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:10:07 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > perhaps elsewhere. Don't rail about how a BSD license would be better > - instead make it clear that the reference implementation shouldn't be > encumbered by the GPL as it will hinder its incorporation into other > systems. Encourage them to consider the BSD kernel as an alternative, > or to publish without including any GPL code in their reference. > > These people will respond well to "this approach will promote UDI > better". They will not respond well to "Linux has cooties". I really do take offense to your rational words of wisdom fir it makes my job of responding much harder 8) Let me poke around a little . Blind insect-like linux fanaticism is not the easiest thing to deal with . Night , Night and Best Regards, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 21 00:53:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21579 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:53:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21574 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:53:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20723; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:52:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd020721; Mon Sep 21 00:52:38 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21173; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:52:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199809210752.AAA21173@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:52:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, mike@smith.net.au, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199809210326.UAA02832@word.smith.net.au> from "Mike Smith" at Sep 20, 98 08:26:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Redirected to -advocacy, where this sort of invective is probably more > appropriate. > > > I am the wrong person for this task because I don't have time. > > Well a fat lot of use you are then. 8) > > Seriously, what value is there in saying "someone should do something > about this"? Of bloody course someone should, and the only someone to > do anything has done everything I can, and the last thing I need is > someone that's unwilling to do *anything* telling me that something > more needs to be done. > > You still need to learn that being an advocate means *doing* something, > not whining about what you think "someone else" should be doing. With respect, I spent several hours today going over the public UDI information. Here are some salient points: 1) It is a source portability standard, *not* a binary portability standard. This means that you can not expect it to mean squat to the source-available systems. 2) The header files for pretty much everything are downloadable from the SCO site, as are the man pages. This means it would be trivial to commit them. 3) There are no reference implementations of drivers that are source-available to test a FreeBSD implementation. This means that you won't know that you've done anything. 4) There is support for dynamic attachment, but not for dynamic loading of driver modules. This means that, whatever happens, it will be pretty stupid, since you will need to expend kernel space on drivers that aren't used in order to get drivers at all. > > Perhaps, someone from the commercial sector can step in : > > Oracle, Yahoo, Whistle or Juniper. This is a good suggestion. Given #1/#3, it's a good bet that you will need someone legally accountable to sign for source license to a "select group" from a legal perspective. > > All of the above companies have architect class engineers and it is really > > to their advantage to contribute something in this area. > > Oracle are no longer interested in FreeBSD (see John Dyson'ss > swansong), BS. This is defeatist propoganda at its worst... > Whistle are at the other end of the market (embedded systems) I'm at Whistle, and I think it's a good idea, but it will have some overhead relative to FreeBSD that FreeBSD may not be prepared to shoulder (FreeBSD is prepared to shoulder so little overhead...). > and UDI would be an unnecessary expense, I believe that both Archie Cobb and Julian Elisher would support UDI at Whistle; I know that I would and that Bryan Mann would, which means that you would have a hard time *not* supporting it there. Whistle is an enlightened company; they know the difference between "tactical" and "strategic", and, unlike most companies, have devoutly embraced the "Open Source" thema for tactical developement. > Juniper aren't likely to care (UDI doesn't address any of their > problems). The current UDI specification (.80) addresses both SCSI drivers and network cards. Thus it addresses issues which Juniper find to be both strategic and tactical (i.e., they will want the code, and they will be willing to contribute code back; Juniper, like Whistle, is aware of the issues involved in enlightened self interest). > Yahoo would only be interested if there was something UDI had to > offer them (and right now that's nothing). Vendor supported SCSI drivers. > UDI will come to FreeBSD when either a) it ceases to be vapourware and/ > or b) it has something to offer someone such that it becomes worthwhile > to invest in it. Certainly, it's vaporware at the present (for the most part), and certainly, Open Source is more likely to provide code to UDI than UDI is to result in vendors supplying code to Open Source. But in the long run, an enlightened self interest is a powerful thing. Look at the recent relicensing of X11R6 by the Open Group under the original X Consortium terms, for a counter-example to your claims. > My goal was to convince Intel that a deliverable for the BSD > environment would be more widely useful as a reference implementation > than one for the Linux environment. That is certainly true. > I was unable to make any headway despite researching the matter > intensely some time back; someone with no coding skills but some > technical marketting acumen and more free time to spend on might-be's > would have a better chance of coming up with the goods. You should probably point out that the BSD community, if included, will be a ready source of commercially usable UDI code, since we will not live without drivers for our own hardware. The Linux community, to the contrary, will produce GPL'ed drivers that will not be commercially usable. Consider the case (since UDI embraces CAM) of CAM-based controller drivers with no development effort by commercial vendors, since the FreeBSD counterparts will be generally available, and usable under the UCB style licensing. Personally, I'd like to see some ELF binary UDI impelementation, such that the code from card vendors would run under FreeBSD without the need for a non-disclosure license and recompilation. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 21 01:09:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA24081 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:09:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (castles236.castles.com [208.214.165.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA24075 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:09:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA21549; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809210813.BAA21549@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Terry Lambert cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), hasty@rah.star-gate.com, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:52:32 -0000." <199809210752.AAA21173@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:13:44 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > With respect, I spent several hours today going over the public > UDI information. Here are some salient points: > > 1) It is a source portability standard, *not* a binary portability > standard. > > This means that you can not expect it to mean squat to the > source-available systems. I tend to disagree, and indeed you yourself below suggest why this isn't the case. > 2) The header files for pretty much everything are downloadable > from the SCO site, as are the man pages. > > This means it would be trivial to commit them. > > 3) There are no reference implementations of drivers that are > source-available to test a FreeBSD implementation. > > This means that you won't know that you've done anything. Not yet. These do exist, and as I understand will ultimately be available. > 4) There is support for dynamic attachment, but not for > dynamic loading of driver modules. > > This means that, whatever happens, it will be pretty stupid, > since you will need to expend kernel space on drivers that > aren't used in order to get drivers at all. This is Bad Bad Bad. You might like to point this out to Kurt at least. > > > Perhaps, someone from the commercial sector can step in : > > > Oracle, Yahoo, Whistle or Juniper. > > This is a good suggestion. Given #1/#3, it's a good bet that you > will need someone legally accountable to sign for source license > to a "select group" from a legal perspective. For which code components? I am aware that Kurt at least feels strongly about having an "open source" reference implementation, and that they're willing to bend over backwards to see this happen. > > > All of the above companies have architect class engineers and it is really > > > to their advantage to contribute something in this area. > > > > Oracle are no longer interested in FreeBSD (see John Dyson'ss > > swansong), > > BS. This is defeatist propoganda at its worst... Evidence to the contrary would be gratefully appreciated. And if you have some time (!), I'd love some help working out why Oracle 8 for Linux is dying under FreeBSD. > > Whistle are at the other end of the market (embedded systems) > > I'm at Whistle, and I think it's a good idea, but it will have some > overhead relative to FreeBSD that FreeBSD may not be prepared to > shoulder (FreeBSD is prepared to shoulder so little overhead...). We're prepared to shoulder lots. We don't have the resources to do so seriously. > > and UDI would be an unnecessary expense, > > I believe that both Archie Cobb and Julian Elisher would support > UDI at Whistle; I know that I would and that Bryan Mann would, which > means that you would have a hard time *not* supporting it there. > Whistle is an enlightened company; they know the difference between > "tactical" and "strategic", and, unlike most companies, have devoutly > embraced the "Open Source" thema for tactical developement. I'm happy to be wrong. > > Juniper aren't likely to care (UDI doesn't address any of their > > problems). > > The current UDI specification (.80) addresses both SCSI drivers and > network cards. Thus it addresses issues which Juniper find to be > both strategic and tactical (i.e., they will want the code, and they > will be willing to contribute code back; Juniper, like Whistle, is > aware of the issues involved in enlightened self interest). I wasn't of the impression that Juniper's relevant network hardware was being handled by BSD drivers, or that they had any trouble with the natively supported hardware they're currently using. > > I was unable to make any headway despite researching the matter > > intensely some time back; someone with no coding skills but some > > technical marketting acumen and more free time to spend on might-be's > > would have a better chance of coming up with the goods. > > You should probably point out that the BSD community, if included, > will be a ready source of commercially usable UDI code, since we > will not live without drivers for our own hardware. The Linux > community, to the contrary, will produce GPL'ed drivers that will > not be commercially usable. Vendors would argue that they would prefer to provide their own drivers. For a counter-argument to "vendor drivers are better", see the now extinct /sys/pci/tek390.c. > Consider the case (since UDI embraces CAM) of CAM-based controller > drivers with no development effort by commercial vendors, since the > FreeBSD counterparts will be generally available, and usable under > the UCB style licensing. Indeed. > Personally, I'd like to see some ELF binary UDI impelementation, such > that the code from card vendors would run under FreeBSD without the > need for a non-disclosure license and recompilation. Certainly, UDI is as close as we're likely to get to a cross-platform ABI for device drivers. We've been trying to bring UDI to USBDI (the cross-platform USB driver interface effort) as well, but are encountering more resistance. 8( -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 21 17:30:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28953 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:30:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28858 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:29:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.42]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA19612; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:31:54 +0500 Message-ID: <3606EE07.65449E1F@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:23:35 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard References: <20744.906352008@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > We need a big group of users explaining why FreeBSD would be a good > > platform to target the new device standard, and why they should use a > > BSD license. > > Lead away, maestro! :) > I did my part by asking them to port it (politely)...now you can send them some 3.0-snap CDs and a "donation" :-) Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 21 17:41:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01650 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00434; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.39]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA19629; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:37:51 +0500 Message-ID: <3606EFD8.8694C5BF@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:31:20 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: UDI Project] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C451C0734AB4E401B2B2CBDF" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C451C0734AB4E401B2B2CBDF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for the crossposting, but this is of general interest...it's good to be polite :-). Pedro. --------------C451C0734AB4E401B2B2CBDF Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from pecos-int.iphase.com ([157.175.3.200]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA17968 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:18:27 +0500 Received: by pecos-int.iphase.com; id AA21457; Mon, 21 Sep 98 11:06:55 CDT Received: from pc-eng-013.iphase.com(157.175.101.50) by pecos.iphase.com via smap (3.2) id xma021413; Mon, 21 Sep 98 11:06:34 -0500 Received: (from kquick@localhost) by pc-eng-013.iphase.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18928; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:05:29 -0500 From: Kevin Quick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <13830.31049.738206.213544@pc-eng-013> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:05:29 -0500 (CDT) To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: udi@core.rose.hp.com Subject: UDI Project In-Reply-To: <36053F64.39353B2@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <36053F64.39353B2@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: kquick@iphase.com Pedro F. Giffuni writes: > Hello: > I have used SCO, Solaris, AIX, and lately FreeBSD, and I clearly see the > advantages this project can have. First of all, as a UNIX user, let me > say UDI is a brilliant idea, and kudos to all the people involved. > > Please consider supporting FreeBSD-3.x (http://www.FreeBSD.org) as a > target platform for your project, I am sure the core team will be glad > to help porting this if a pre-release is available. > > kindest regards, > > Pedro F. Giffuni > Universidad Nacional de Colombia > Pedro, We definitely appreciate your interest and support for UDI. At present, we don't have anyone participating from the FreeBSD perspective and I don't think the current participants have the bandwidth at the moment to work on FreeBSD. I would, however, invite yourself and other members of the FreeBSD core team to become involved in UDI to facilitate FreeBSD support for UDI. We are an open working group; anyone may join. Furthermore, our current specifications are available from our Web site: http://www.sco.com/UDI which would allow FreeBSD to begin development of UDI support. Publicly available sample code from Intel and the other member organizations will also become available over the next few months. Again, thank you for your interest and feel free to join in or just give us periodic feedback. Regards, Kevin -- ________________________________________________________________________ Kevin Quick Interphase Corporation Engineering Dallas, Texas kquick@iphase.com http://www.iphase.com 214.654.5173 --------------C451C0734AB4E401B2B2CBDF-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 21 19:44:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23009 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:44:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22867 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:43:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4043.ime.net [209.90.195.53]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10268; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:42:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Message-Id: <199809220242.WAA10268@Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us> X-Server-Comment: Sent via OCSNet/Orland, Admin is: Droobie@Onenetwork.orland.me.us X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.52 (Beta) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:36:36 -0400 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3606EE07.65449E1F@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <20744.906352008@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Snap CD? Where? :-) What is the latest version of the SNAP cd anyway? if it was like... 19980804, I'd bother to get it.. But if it's 19980720 or something like that I'm going to wait. At 07:23 PM 9/21/98 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> >> > We need a big group of users explaining why FreeBSD would be a good >> > platform to target the new device standard, and why they should use a >> > BSD license. >> >> Lead away, maestro! :) >> > >I did my part by asking them to port it (politely)...now you can send >them some 3.0-snap CDs and a "donation" :-) > > > Pedro. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 21 23:04:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26387 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26375 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:04:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26057; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Drew Baxter cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More on the Intel-UNIX standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:36:36 EDT." <199809220242.WAA10268@Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:04:27 -0700 Message-ID: <26054.906444267@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Snap CD? Where? :-) > > What is the latest version of the SNAP cd anyway? if it was like... 5/24/98 - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 24 04:44:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA17208 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 04:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wanadoo.fr (smtp-out-2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA17203 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 04:44:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@wanadoo.fr) Received: from aralia.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.42] by wanadoo.fr for Paris Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:43:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mac1-5.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.177.5] by smtp.wanadoo.fr for Paris Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:43:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sequoia.mondomaineamoi.megalo (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA00589; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:45:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:45:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199809241145.NAA00589@sequoia.mondomaineamoi.megalo> From: Stephane Legrand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Very positive article about FreeBSD X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, There is a good article at http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,349576,00.html It particularly explains in short terms the major difference between GPL and BSD licenses. -- Stephane.Legrand@wanadoo.fr | systeme d'exploitation FreeBSD http://perso.wanadoo.fr/stephane.legrand/ | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 24 05:51:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23625 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA23603 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:51:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from gullveig.ifi.uio.no (2602@gullveig.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.147]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id OAA05433; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:51:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by gullveig.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:50:59 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Stephane Legrand Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Very positive article about FreeBSD References: <199809241145.NAA00589@sequoia.mondomaineamoi.megalo> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 24 Sep 1998 14:50:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: Stephane Legrand's message of "Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:45:19 +0200 (CEST)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA23611 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stephane Legrand writes: > There is a good article at > http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,349576,00.html > > It particularly explains in short terms the major difference between > GPL and BSD licenses. And the little daemon with the "will work for free" sign is soooooo cute :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 24 06:24:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA27720 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 06:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA27714 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 06:24:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07473; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:23:20 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <360A47C9.AB795076@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:23:21 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://www.internationalschool.co.uk/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephane Legrand CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Very positive article about FreeBSD References: <199809241145.NAA00589@sequoia.mondomaineamoi.megalo> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stephane Legrand wrote: > > There is a good article at > http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,349576,00.html > > It particularly explains in short terms the major difference between > GPL and BSD licenses. I like the Chuck picture they have in it. http://www.zdnet.com/sr/issues/980907/graphics/devil.jpg Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message