From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 00:00:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04489 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:00:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04484 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:00:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA05357; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:30:19 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA00818; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:30:19 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981129183019.H456@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:30:19 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: wes@softweyr.com, tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? References: <19981129175648.F456@freebie.lemis.com> <199811290733.CAA35884@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199811290733.CAA35884@y.dyson.net>; from John S. Dyson on Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 02:33:53AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, 29 November 1998 at 2:33:53 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Greg Lehey said: >> >> OK, I must be missing something, but what does System V init have that >> makes it easier to start up or shut down an application? /etc/rc*.d >> isn't the problem: that's a question of scripts, not init. >> > Init supports runmodes (good or bad -- I don't care -- if one doesn't like > it, then don't use them.) OK. The *idea* of run modes seems to make sense, and I wouldn't change the System V method on a system which had it, but how useful is it really? Consider: Run state Meaning BSD init 0 halt halt 1 single user shutdown 2 multi user, Whaat?? no network 3 multiuser (multiuser; stop single user) 4 undefined (most systems) can't see any equivalent on PCs 5 PROM monitor 6 reboot reboot Where's the important difference? > SysV init has an established set of standards for usage of > startup/shutdown files. It doesn't solve ALL problems, but moves > forward, other than just staying idle. Sure, but as I said, that's all a question of scripts. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 00:58:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08111 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:58:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alphazed.com (magrathea.alphazed.com [207.173.202.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA08106 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny@AlphaZed.com) Received: (qmail 11660 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1998 08:57:58 -0000 Received: from dannyl.dircon.co.uk (HELO gw.uk.alphazed.com) (194.112.43.62) by magrathea.alphazed.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 1998 08:57:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 12806 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1998 08:37:10 -0000 Received: from milliard.uk.alphazed.com (HELO AlphaZed.com) (204.130.161.1) by gw.uk.alphazed.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 1998 08:37:10 -0000 Message-ID: <36610524.F573A5C7@AlphaZed.com> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:26:12 +0000 From: daniel lawrence Organization: AlphaZed, Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: dyson@iquest.net, wes@softweyr.com, tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? References: <19981129175648.F456@freebie.lemis.com> <199811290733.CAA35884@y.dyson.net> <19981129183019.H456@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sunday, 29 November 1998 at 2:33:53 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > Greg Lehey said: > >> > >> OK, I must be missing something, but what does System V init have that > >> makes it easier to start up or shut down an application? /etc/rc*.d > >> isn't the problem: that's a question of scripts, not init. > >> > > Init supports runmodes (good or bad -- I don't care -- if one doesn't like > > it, then don't use them.) > > OK. The *idea* of run modes seems to make sense, and I wouldn't > change the System V method on a system which had it, but how useful is > it really? Consider: > > Run state Meaning BSD init > 0 halt halt > 1 single user shutdown > 2 multi user, Whaat?? > no network > 3 multiuser (multiuser; stop single user) > 4 undefined > (most systems) can't see any equivalent on PCs > 5 PROM monitor > 6 reboot reboot > > Where's the important difference? > > > SysV init has an established set of standards for usage of > > startup/shutdown files. It doesn't solve ALL problems, but moves > > forward, other than just staying idle. > > Sure, but as I said, that's all a question of scripts. That is absolutely correct. Most SysV's that I have used had truly abominable init scripts. It is always a cross your fingers time when you change run levels because sometimes the daemons would be killed correctly and sometimes not. Sometimes the scripts would try to start a daemon even if it was already running. This would happen if you tried to go from 2 to 3 to 2, for example. At one site I got so impatient with the factory scripts that I rewrote every one of them so that the "run level" concept for levels 2, 3 and 4 actually were treated as sub/supersets. Level 2 was the usual mutli-user, no network; 3 started networking daemons; 4 started Oracle. Going from 2 to 4 caused level 3 start/stop scripts to be invoked. This is more limited than the original concept where run levels can almost cause the machine to take on different personalities, depending on the run level, but it is infinitely more useful. The machine subjectively felt more solid, if only because there was no question about what it was going to do when you ran init. > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- daniel lawrence AlphaZed, Ltd mailto:danny@AlphaZed.COM http://uk.AlphaZed.COM +44 (0)1322 410 419 London To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 02:43:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12822 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:43:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main-sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.75.26.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA12817 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:42:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di-060.hamburg.dialin-gw.net (di-060.hamburg.dialin-gw.net [195.90.225.60]) by main-sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id xa099967 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:41:40 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199811290732.CAA35872@y.dyson.net> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:44:00 +0100 (CET) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com, (Wes Peters) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 29-Nov-98 John S. Dyson wrote: ~ ~ >> > > Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process. This is political >> > > suicide, but technological necessity. >> > > >> > No question about that. SYSV init or something close to that >> > is necessary. >> >> It shouldn't be all that difficult; have the arguments in that past >> been "it's just not BSD-ish?" >> > I believe that you are right. Anyone (IMO) who has really used a > SYSV style init (and understands it), will find that it is a valuable > tool. Expecting it to solve *all* problems is probably a little too > demanding. However, IMO, it is a good tool that could help manage > system startup and package startup/shutdown, etc. As any valuable > tool, SYSV init can cause problems -- but then if it hurts (SYSV init > does something evil), then don't make it do the evil thing!!! :-). > > One can hack a solution with BSD init, but it ends up implementing > subsets of SYSV init. Why not go all the way and just do it? If > SYSV init has serious problems (which it is indeed NOT perfect), then > implement either a better version, or start moving forward with an > existant version, and then move forward from there. The strong side of BSD init is its simplicity. A good redesign of init adding SYSV style capabilities could get the proc 1 image even simpler. Why not putting all the getty/ttys stuff into a different process? (Kind of special getty parent process, not necessarily a ttymon.) Further I'd add a run level manager process which wouldn't need to have a dedicated proc id, as well as a seperate program initctl. If run level information was stored persistently, the 'init system' could recover from an rlm crash without getting the entire system into an unhealthy state. Good old V7 init would not retire - hence no reason for wistful lamentation. ;-) Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Lars Gerhard Kuehl Phone: +49 40 54768010 Mobile: +49 171 9307085 Fax : +49 40 54768012 Email : kuehl@lgk.de #ifdef is your friend, and everyone's else enemy #endif /* is your friend */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 06:30:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA04787 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 06:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA04780 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 06:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 5772 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1998 14:30:00 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Nov 1998 14:30:00 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA01054; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:29:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811291429.JAA01054@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <19981129183019.H456@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 29, 98 06:30:19 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:29:58 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, wes@softweyr.com, tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey said: > > OK. The *idea* of run modes seems to make sense, and I wouldn't > change the System V method on a system which had it, but how useful is > it really? Consider: > > Run state Meaning BSD init > 0 halt halt > 1 single user shutdown > 2 multi user, Whaat?? > no network > 3 multiuser (multiuser; stop single user) > 4 undefined > (most systems) can't see any equivalent on PCs > 5 PROM monitor > 6 reboot reboot > > Where's the important difference? > Add additional packages, and see that BSD init ends up more and more inadequate. > > > SysV init has an established set of standards for usage of > > startup/shutdown files. It doesn't solve ALL problems, but moves > > forward, other than just staying idle. > > Sure, but as I said, that's all a question of scripts. > Also, it is all a question of C-code, but a framework enables better organization. However SYSV-init is implemented, vendors do use it. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 08:08:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10339 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:08:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10331 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:08:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00554; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:07:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:07:52 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <19981127190855.A468@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > The basic reason I'm pursuing the notion of userland unification > > is that I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the egos are smaller and less > > likely to be a problem outside of the kernel. It would also leave the > > respective camps free to have their own add-ons. This would be one way to > > reduce the effort spend tracking what the other groups are doing for the > > entire distribution. > > You've forgotten something that went by a day or so ago: the source > trees are structured differently, and the licenses aren't quite the > same. In these areas you'll run into an amount of stubbornness^W > reluctance to change which might surprise you. Yes, I'm aware of the differences. That is clearly significant obstacle that would need to be overcome. Like I said, I'm willing to be egos in userland are smaller. And as FreeBSD goes multi-platform, it may have to make some of the same layout changes that NetBSD and OpenBSD made anyhow. > > I could see things where 90% of userland, and 90% of the ports > > (not packages) could be lumped together on a single CD, that could be > > included in each OS's distribution. The particular flavor would provide > > it's kernel sources, system binaries and other bits that are truly kernel > > specific. > > Well, since you mention the ports, there's an idea. I know that > FreeBSD and NetBSD have a certain amount of object code compatibility; > I expect that applies to OpenBSD as well. A thing that *really* would > be worth doing would be smoothing the differences, which would > probably require some modifications on all three systems. The result, > though, would be that the ports (which Walnut Creek already ships > precompiled) would work on any of the three platforms. And if you > prefer the NetBSD dump(8) over the FreeBSD version, there'd be nothing > to stop you. > > Greg Compatability at the ports level could surely be improved, but don't you think improving compatability at the /usr level would ease improving the compatability of the ports area? Without addressing /usr, you are faced with manging several sets of patches for many ports. Unifying /usr would restrict the multiple patch problem to kernel/system API specific packages. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 08:14:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10817 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:14:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10812 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:14:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00567; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:14:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:14:12 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <19981127190855.A468@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi folks, Someone made the point on this thread a few days ago about there being incompatable copyrights for the three non-commercial BSD's and that each group has slightly different adgendae. Well, this is apoint to seriously look into if a /usr unification is undertaken. Below are the diffs for the COPYRIGHT files found on each of the OS's. Note how small the differences are. NetBSD/FreeBSD hardly differ at all. OpenBSD differes form the others because it still seems to use the Net/2 copyright. If they still use Net/2 source, it would generally need to be updated to the BSD-Lite versions. (Of course including any OpenBSD improvements.) In summary, I do not think the copyrights in general will be a problem. If there are files with special additionaly copyrights, then they are to be delt with specially. It's that simple. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] --- COPYRIGHT.freebsd Sat Nov 28 13:41:52 1998 +++ COPYRIGHT.netbsd Sat Nov 28 13:47:13 1998 @@ -1,3 +1,4 @@ +# $NetBSD: COPYRIGHT,v 1.2 1997/02/15 10:02:07 mikel Exp $ # @(#)COPYRIGHT 8.2 (Berkeley) 3/21/94 All of the documentation and software included in the 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite --- COPYRIGHT.netbsd Sat Nov 28 13:47:13 1998 +++ COPYRIGHT.openbsd Wed Oct 18 04:44:22 1995 @@ -1,11 +1,11 @@ -# $NetBSD: COPYRIGHT,v 1.2 1997/02/15 10:02:07 mikel Exp $ -# @(#)COPYRIGHT 8.2 (Berkeley) 3/21/94 +# @(#)COPYRIGHT 5.1 (Berkeley) 7/1/91 -All of the documentation and software included in the 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite -Releases is copyrighted by The Regents of the University of California. +All of the documentation and software included in the second BSD Networking +Software Release is copyrighted by The Regents of the University of California. -Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 - The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. +Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991 The Regents of the +University of California. +All rights reserved. Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions @@ -17,8 +17,8 @@ documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: -This product includes software developed by the University of -California, Berkeley and its contributors. + This product includes software developed by the University of + California, Berkeley and its contributors. 4. Neither the name of the University nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission. @@ -59,7 +59,10 @@ Suite 500, Washington, DC 20001-2178. The developmental work of Programming Language C was completed by the X3J11 Technical Committee. -The views and conclusions contained in the software and documentation are -those of the authors and should not be interpreted as representing official -policies, either expressed or implied, of the Regents of the University -of California. +Portions of the manual reflect system enhancements made at Berkeley and +sponsored in part by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DoD), +Arpa Order No. 4871 monitored by the Naval Electronics Systems Command +under contract No. N00039-84-C-0089. The views and conclusions contained +in these documents are those of the authors and should not be interpreted +as representing official policies, either expressed or implied, of the +Defense Research Projects Agency or of the US Government. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 10:22:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20386 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from measles.ecst.csuchico.edu (measles.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.4.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA20379 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:22:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cyber@ecst.csuchico.edu) From: cyber@ecst.csuchico.edu Received: (qmail 29993 invoked by uid 3300); 29 Nov 1998 10:22:28 -0800 Message-ID: <19981129182228.29992.qmail@measles.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux To: adrian@ubergeeks.com Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:22:28 -0800 (PST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@openbsd.org In-Reply-To: from "ADRIAN Filipi-Martin" at Nov 29, 98 11:07:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: ] ] Compatability at the ports level could surely be improved, but ] don't you think improving compatability at the /usr level would ease ] improving the compatability of the ports area? Without addressing /usr, ] you are faced with manging several sets of patches for many ports. ] Unifying /usr would restrict the multiple patch problem to kernel/system ] API specific packages. ] NOTE: I dont even necessarily support this off the cuff scheme: One approach that would realisticly improve chances could be as follows: 1. Agree on a new API Adjust toolchains/kernel/libs to support this API This API would exist as a binary emulation where appropriatee. The same API would then exist across all platforms and binaries written on one would work on all. (Note: we havent modified any programs yet.) 2. Get vendors to support this API Migrate the best of the best programs to this API. We get unified vendor support. Vendors only have to support the *BSD format. Note: programs that understand the low lying bits would need an abstraction layer (which should have been there anyway). Users now have a choice between different versions of a program. i.e.: NetBSD ftp vs FreeBSD ftp. 3. Migrate the ports (packages under NetBSD) to the new API Migrate the old and put all the new under this API. This will reduce the overall work necessary to get programs for the *BSD community. We should start seeing critical mass here. Note: vendor support was pushed early due to their ramp up times. The selling point to them is one API for 3 OSs. 4. As we get more programs under the new API it will then be selected as the default by the toolchain (OSs not fully ported would just add top level flags to specify the old behavior until everything is ported. Yes, this will require a lot of makefile changes.) Can this fail? Yes, most definitely. Can this work? Maybe. The difference is engineering factors vs developer factors. A technically feasible solution will not always be implementable. NIH continually gets in the was as well as different design goals. However, even if it only makes it as far as #2 its a win. We get unified vendor support, which is what we want. Even if there are subtle differences to the userland if i can go out and buy WordPerfect and only have to tell them i need it for *BSD/i386 without them worrying about will my subcamp of BSD have enough mass to make it worth their while to support it specifically, then its a win. -=erik. -- Hack the Media. Life is an illusion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 13:23:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05170 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:23:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05165 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00881; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:22:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:22:39 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: cyber@ecst.csuchico.edu cc: grog@lemis.com, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <19981129182228.29992.qmail@measles.ecst.csuchico.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 cyber@ecst.csuchico.edu wrote: > ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > ] > ] Compatability at the ports level could surely be improved, but > ] don't you think improving compatability at the /usr level would ease > ] improving the compatability of the ports area? Without addressing /usr, > ] you are faced with manging several sets of patches for many ports. > ] Unifying /usr would restrict the multiple patch problem to kernel/system > ] API specific packages. > ] > > NOTE: I dont even necessarily support this off the cuff scheme: > > One approach that would realisticly improve chances could be as follows: > > 1. Agree on a new API > Adjust toolchains/kernel/libs to support this API > This API would exist as a binary emulation where appropriatee. > The same API would then exist across all platforms and > binaries written on one would work on all. > (Note: we havent modified any programs yet.) While, I think the rest of the points in the list were fine, I really want to stay away form anything kernel related. This would also include the toolchain to some degree. The toolchain could be just as deep a bog as the kernel with respect to generating a consensus. I'm thinking more along the lines of libc level compatability. If some code uses a system specific syscall, it would have to be left upto the particular core team to take care of it. That's not a huge burden. They are already doing this. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 13:30:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05975 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:30:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05956; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:30:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA07740; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:00:41 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA01864; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:00:37 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981130080037.A423@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:00:37 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: wes@softweyr.com, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: System V init (was: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?) References: <19981129183019.H456@freebie.lemis.com> <199811291429.JAA01054@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199811291429.JAA01054@y.dyson.net>; from John S. Dyson on Sun, Nov 29, 1998 at 09:29:58AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [moved to -hackers] On Sunday, 29 November 1998 at 9:29:58 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Greg Lehey said: >> >> OK. The *idea* of run modes seems to make sense, and I wouldn't >> change the System V method on a system which had it, but how useful is >> it really? Consider: >> >> Run state Meaning BSD init >> 0 halt halt >> 1 single user shutdown >> 2 multi user, Whaat?? >> no network >> 3 multiuser (multiuser; stop single user) >> 4 undefined >> (most systems) can't see any equivalent on PCs >> 5 PROM monitor >> 6 reboot reboot >> >> Where's the important difference? > > Add additional packages, and see that BSD init ends up more > and more inadequate. I still don't see why. We have a method to run application startup and shutdown scripts already. Could you be more specific? >>> SysV init has an established set of standards for usage of >>> startup/shutdown files. It doesn't solve ALL problems, but moves >>> forward, other than just staying idle. >> >> Sure, but as I said, that's all a question of scripts. > > Also, it is all a question of C-code, Where? > but a framework enables better organization. However SYSV-init is > implemented, vendors do use it. I suppose there's one point there. But the only difference for installing under FreeBSD would be the name of the startup file. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 13:41:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06898 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:41:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06892 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:41:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00925; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:40:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:40:58 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Todd Whitesel cc: Greg Lehey , art@stacken.kth.se, alicia@internetpaper.com, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <199811290635.WAA28011@shell17.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 28 Nov 1998, Todd Whitesel wrote: > > > If there is suficcient interest/manpower to make it more than a > > > one-man show, I'll set up a 3-way CVS mirror at UVa or maybe a local ISP. > > > We can tag an initial starting point and start merging into one of the > > > three trees. If this bears fruit we can then re-merge any recent changes > > > and make it a new baseline for userland. (Yes, there is undoubtedly a lot > > > more to consider, but it's a start.) [...] > Provide a tree that people can use to merge individual userland programs, > and publish status reports on how each individual program is doing: whether > it is unified, and which of the 3 projects has adopted the unified version. This is a valid approach. But I think it has more logistical problems. Do all three BSD's maintain identicle copies of the source in their CVS repositories? This somewhat complicated. Check-in's are multiplied three fold. It makes more sense in my mind to have a single repository for working this out. If not an independent repository, then at the very least a branch off one repository. Then each camp as they see fit could drop /usr soruces and rely upon the unified versions. I really want to take as neutral as possible approach to this. Metaphorically, unified sources would be to gods. They are free to take it or leave it. I tend to believe if it's good, it will be accepted. Also relying upon one group as a primary repository seems politically risky. > It is vastly more important that the _easy_ merges get done than that _all_ > the merges get done. Absolutely. Get the easy ones done first. (That's why the kerel's are left for last^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hnot included. :-) > I suspect that the reason most of the past projects failed is because too > many people refused to even _start_ on them until they were certain that > the entire stated goal of the project could be completed. Screw that!! A > partial success still has much benefit for everyone. > > Todd Whitesel > toddpw @ best.com I think I have already recieved enough interest to get things rolling. I'm game for trying without much more aproval or discussion. As I said before, if the fruits are ripe and sweet, I doubt they will be overlooked. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 14:25:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09934 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:25:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duhnet.net (like.duh.org [207.30.95.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09929 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:25:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tv@pobox.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by duhnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1/Duh-2.1.0) with ESMTP id RAA12298Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:23:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:23:36 -0500 (EST) From: Todd Vierling X-Sender: tv@duhnet.net To: cyber@ecst.csuchico.edu cc: adrian@ubergeeks.com, grog@lemis.com, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <19981129182228.29992.qmail@measles.ecst.csuchico.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 cyber@ecst.csuchico.edu wrote: : 1. Agree on a new API : Adjust toolchains/kernel/libs to support this API : This API would exist as a binary emulation where appropriatee. : The same API would then exist across all platforms and : binaries written on one would work on all. You sound like you're proposing an ABI, not an API. In general, all three BSDs have the same API, which is Net/2 and 4.4BSD based. So, `sounds like 86open.' Yeah, that went over well. (Their site, www.telly.org/86open/, has not been updated since November 1997.) -- -- Todd Vierling (Personal tv@pobox.com; Bus. todd_vierling@xn.xerox.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 14:29:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10262 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:29:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smok.apk.net (smok.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10256 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:29:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) Received: from CARBON (as1-icg-16.cleveland.apk.net [207.54.186.26]) by smok.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1/apk.981124) with SMTP id RAA12096 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:00:56 -0500 (EST) From: ipswitch@apk.net (Stuart Krivis) To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:01:16 GMT Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. Reply-To: ipswitch@apk.net Message-ID: <3665c254.250374058@mail.apk.net> References: <4.1.19981125114645.06a7c070@127.0.0.1> <365C5F9D.F793AEB1@softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <365C5F9D.F793AEB1@softweyr.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA10258 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Perhaps what is needed is a sticker to be applied to promo sets. "This is a promotional copy of FreeBSD. It is a fully functional, fully serviceable operating system, but may not contain the latest security enhancements and bug fixes. Please see http://blahblahblah for addenda and advisories." I simply warned everyone that this was not the latest version. It was wonderful for starting out, and can be easily upgraded, but you won't want to leave it on the net without some fixes. This applies to anything. RH 5.2 comes with tcp_wrappers installed, but they don't do anything. I know of a case where a network got hacked because a RH machine was compromised. If the RH box had been tightened up.... (It wasn't my machine, but I have been guilty of similar lapses. We just have to hope that we learn our lessons before they bite us on the ass.) On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:50:53 -0700, you wrote: >> >All releases have bugs. If I waited for a completely bug free FreeBSD >> >before sending out a single promotional copy, you'd be whining even >> >louder than you do now. >> >> There's a fundamental point is not addressed here. When a security >> hole has been discovered and publicized, the risk to users installing >> the old version is extremely high. Before that time, it's close to >> nil. >> >But Brett, you just continually refuse to accept the fact that by the >time ANY system goes from development to field acceptance, the >probability of such security flaws being uncovered is nearly 100%. >ANY system. > > >Are you under the impression you WOULDN'T have gotten hacked last >summer if you been running Linux, Solaris, HP/UX, or Windows NT? >It's long past time to admit the problem was caused by nobody being >at home when the exploit occurred, rather than any inherent evil in >FreeBSD, and JUST GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE! -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com [Team OS/2] [Team APK] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 29 23:22:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26806 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:22:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell17.ba.best.com (shell17.ba.best.com [206.184.139.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26796 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:22:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toddpw@shell17.ba.best.com) Received: (from toddpw@localhost) by shell17.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id XAA04398; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:21:27 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Whitesel Message-Id: <199811300721.XAA04398@shell17.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: from ADRIAN Filipi-Martin at "Nov 29, 98 04:40:58 pm" To: adrian@ubergeeks.com Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:21:27 -0800 (PST) Cc: toddpw@best.com, grog@lemis.com, art@stacken.kth.se, alicia@internetpaper.com, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@openbsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ Followups to private email please. ] > > Provide a tree that people can use to merge individual userland programs, > > and publish status reports on how each individual program is doing: whether > > it is unified, and which of the 3 projects has adopted the unified version. > > This is a valid approach. But I think it has more logistical > problems. Do all three BSD's maintain identicle copies of the source in > their CVS repositories? This somewhat complicated. Check-in's are > multiplied three fold. diff+patch check-ins are politically very cheap. To paraphrase your original description, the work is technically quite boring, just time intensive. That is the main reason why it has not been getting done; otherwise I think most everyone agrees that nonconflicting changes should be merged across all BSDs. > It makes more sense in my mind to have a single repository for > working this out. If not an independent repository, then at the very > least a branch off one repository. Then each camp as they see fit could > drop /usr soruces and rely upon the unified versions. A single repository for working things out, yes. But a single unified userland tree that each BSD has to switch to in toto? I don't think so. That really is likely to create a fourth BSD, or end up folded back into the one BSD whose userland you started with. I repeat, make your unit of progress (for now) be the individual programs in userland. It's technically non-difficult to take three similar programs ported to different BSD's, and merge them into one unified program that is ported to all *BSD's. Such a program is very easy to justify checking in at all three projects. Please have faith in this process, because it will bring you far more success than trying to "fix" how the *BSD's are doing things. They will not change, not because of big egos, but rather because they have solid convictions in the correctness of their policies, given the respective goals that they have set for themselves. Before you can tackle the difficult aspects of merging userlands, or even (gasp) the driver API's or other kernel issues, you MUST have a good set of working relationships between the various core teams and the merge team. The absolute best way to cultivate this is to start with small forward steps. The main reason we don't want to repeat what happened with EGCS is that for most of GCC's user base, GCC is a drop-in component. Userland as a whole is definitely not a drop-in component, at least not if you expect it to work! Todd Whitesel toddpw @ best.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Nov 30 19:59:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07307 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:59:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from measles.ecst.csuchico.edu (measles.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.4.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA07299 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:59:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cyber@ecst.csuchico.edu) From: cyber@ecst.csuchico.edu Received: (qmail 25922 invoked by uid 3300); 30 Nov 1998 19:59:28 -0800 Message-ID: <19981201035928.25921.qmail@measles.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux To: tv@pobox.com (Todd Vierling) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:59:27 -3200 (PST) Cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@openbsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Todd Vierling" at Nov 29, 98 05:23:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Todd Vierling wrote: ] ] On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 cyber@ecst.csuchico.edu wrote: ] ] : 1. Agree on a new API ] ] You sound like you're proposing an ABI, not an API. In general, all three ] BSDs have the same API, which is Net/2 and 4.4BSD based. ] ] So, `sounds like 86open.' Yeah, that went over well. (Their site, ] www.telly.org/86open/, has not been updated since November 1997.) ] Yeah, ABI is more accurate. I did say that it was an off the cuff idea and that i didnt even support the idea, I could go of on hundreds of points on why it wont work at this time, despite be a technologically 'neat' idea. (I hadn't even taken a look at 86open.) -=erik. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Nov 30 23:10:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23560 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23553 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:10:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA21826 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:10:09 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA03390 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:10:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:09:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Good Job!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just visited FreeBSD mall. As well as /. I was surprised to see that FreeBSD now offers commercial technical support including "break-in analysis". Applixware is available. This is all very cool. FreeBSD rocks is also very cool. I posted this new site to /. in my very first /. posting. WooHoo!!! (we will see if they put it up) Which brings me to my point. Slashdot is a visible tool for FreeBSD advocacy. Write something useful and perhaps it will get posted. I have seen some Linuxites do some trolling but I also see them get quickly rebuffed by smarter folks. All in all I think we can gain some press for FreeBSD there. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Nov 30 23:32:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25991 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:32:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25983 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:32:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA44408 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:32:22 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA07781 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:32:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:32:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Adaptec and FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adaptec's website claims support for Linux. Does this mean "Linux Exclusively" or "Free Software including Linux"? I seem to recall that some drivers have been released to FreeBSD from adaptec but I would like a confirmation on this before I entreat Adaptec to claim support for FreeBSD also. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 1 06:08:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00933 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 06:08:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00927 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 06:08:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20583; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:11:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3663F904.C0DB2811@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 07:11:16 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Adaptec and FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > Adaptec's website claims support for Linux. Does this mean "Linux > Exclusively" or "Free Software including Linux"? > > I seem to recall that some drivers have been released to FreeBSD from > adaptec but I would like a confirmation on this before I entreat Adaptec > to claim support for FreeBSD also. IIRC, the current Adaptec drivers for Linux are created FROM the FreeBSD drivers written by Justin Gibbs. Somebody oughtta smack Adaptec upside the head for this. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 1 06:13:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01628 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 06:13:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA01620 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 06:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20603; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:16:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3663FA17.59C1C791@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 07:15:51 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Good Job!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > I just visited FreeBSD mall. As well as /. > > I was surprised to see that FreeBSD now offers commercial technical > support including "break-in analysis". Applixware is available. This is > all very cool. Very Cool. Time to get that download going. My brother uses ApplixWare for all of his work stuff, and his MBA classes, on Linux. I'll go get it now. > Slashdot is a visible tool for FreeBSD advocacy. Write something useful > and perhaps it will get posted. I have seen some Linuxites do some > trolling but I also see them get quickly rebuffed by smarter folks. All in > all I think we can gain some press for FreeBSD there. In particular, "CmdTaco" has been pretty good at posting FreeBSD news when he hears of it, even if he is a Linuxer. All in all, /. has been good about posting BSD news. They carry an announcement of each issue of Daemon News as well. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 1 09:27:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20798 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:27:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA20793 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:27:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA38274; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:27:36 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA09082; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:27:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:27:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Wes Peters cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Adaptec and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3663F904.C0DB2811@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >IIRC, the current Adaptec drivers for Linux are created FROM the >FreeBSD drivers written by Justin Gibbs. Somebody oughtta smack >Adaptec upside the head for this. Can anyone else speak on this issue? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 1 14:28:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26194 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from citycom.com (mail.citycom.com [207.171.207.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26188 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:28:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nordwick@citycom.com) Received: from yasmeen (38.28.61.55) by citycom.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:27:48 -0800 Message-ID: <000201be1d79$111ec4b0$373d1c26@yasmeen.citycom.com> From: "Jason Nordwick" To: "Wes Peters" , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: "FreeBSD-advocacy" Subject: Re: Good Job!! Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:44:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Slashdot is a visible tool for FreeBSD advocacy. Write something useful >> and perhaps it will get posted. I have seen some Linuxites do some >> trolling but I also see them get quickly rebuffed by smarter folks. All in >> all I think we can gain some press for FreeBSD there. I got one, I was thinking of doing... actually, I'll start it tonight: doing a book for the 4.4 BSD book. I think it is a good non-FreeBSD specific way of generating interest in BSD. It shouldn't start any flamewars, and will be useful for people. I'll try to get it done tonight and mail it off. -jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 2 07:42:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA04951 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:42:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bbcc.ctc.edu (bbcc.ctc.edu [134.39.180.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA04946 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:42:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@bbcc.ctc.edu) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by bbcc.ctc.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA14884; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:41:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:41:04 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Coleman To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@openbsd.org cc: advocacy@netbsd.org Subject: December Issue of the Daemon News. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just in case this didn't make it on this list already, The December Issue of the Daemon News is out. Go tell all your friends. http://www.daemonnews.org/ -Chris Coleman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 2 14:03:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10535 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:03:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10530 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:03:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA36590 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:03:17 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA05084 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:03:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:02:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Effective Writing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't think there is any place one can be taught to "spin doctor" unless you work on Madison Ave or perhaps D.C. I have recently been cruising through some articles on news groups as well as slashdot and freebsdrocks and daemon news. I have seen effective and less effective writing. I read an article by a _supporter_ of FreeBSD which left me feeling that FreeBSD is doing things the wrong way. Uggh! This was my inspiration for this message. When daemonites are advocating FreeBSD in public forums we should be careful to choose words for maximum impact. Don't write things that are easily discounted because of their tone. We should also be careful not to shoot ourselves in the foot. Sure you want your voice to be heard. To accomplish that goal, you need a listener. The burden is on the author to write well so that the author can gain readership. Here are some recommendations that I can make based on my experience. I invite more experienced writers to add to this. I have learned some of these lessons the hard way. Some of you will point your finger at me and accuse. Go ahead! We can discuss examples of how not to write. Please keep in mind that this discussion of writing centers on works that go out to the masses. In house discussions are going to be different. See the comments on audience below. Never write a reply immediately after reading something that angers you. Many of us are smart of enough to produce stinging invective in stream of consciousness writing. This is probably not the best way to advance the cause of FreeBSD. I have personally had to make public retractions and apologies for being to hasty in writing. Walk away from your writing for at least on hour if not a day before posting your work. You will see errors or better ways to advance your argument. Sometimes saying nothing at all is better. Choose your battles carefully. Consider your audience. Write your article to _that_ audience. An article to help newbies is going to be different than an article for CS grads. An article to convert MS users will be different than an article to convert Linux users. Now about spin doctoring. Change "This is really bad" to "There is room for improvement." Do this even when addressing the shortcomings of your opponent. Why "mince words" you ask? Because a reasonable voice will be heard. Remember that it only takes a split second for your readers to click the next link if you don't engage them. Don't insult your own camp. If you don't like "your camp" then why should anyone else like "your camp". Don't take "spin doctoring" anywhere near the realm of lying. Example: "Microsoft takes security very seriously. Microsoft has not had any reports of loss from a compromise of our point to point tunnelling protocol." They wrote this in response the B. Schneir's critique. Schneir did in fact compromise MS PPTP. Of course, he didn't cause a "reported loss" so Microsoft is telling the _truth_ per se. But what did Microsoft lose in stating this "truth"? Any time I see the words "Microsoft takes security..." I am already tuned out. I _know_ that the remainder of their statement is BS. Read these excellent examples of how to respond to a criticism. http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/ http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/unix_books.html Tim has been accused of "lining his own pockets" because he doesn't GPL his books. If I were to reply I might say something like, "Stallman! You f*ing hippy reject. Go back to your imaginary "post scarcity" society." Look for Tim's spin. Consider how Tim could have written the article a la "usenet flamewars" and totally destroyed his effectiveness. This is great writing. Reading Greg Lehey's email guide is also a good idea. Writing is something that can be developed with practice. I don't beleive anyone is born a "natural" writer. I really hope that some other experienced folks add to this discussion. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 3 00:03:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14888 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:03:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14880 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id AAA13022; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:03:28 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id AAA08745; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:03:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:03:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: sfosse@sophia.inria.fr cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Free Phone Source Code Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bon jour! :) Je ne parle pas Francais bien. :( Please note that I have copied my friends at FreeBSD. I would like to thank INRIA for producing software for the FreeBSD operation system. I have used your SciLab software in the past and look forward to installing Free Phone. I am asking about source code for Free Phone for introduction into the FreeBSD ports tree. As you may know, FreeBSD just released version 3.0 and has switched to the ELF binary format. There is still support for a.out format but that will be vanishing soon. If INRIA were to make Free Phone source available it would allow FreeBSD users to use the software as well as contribute improvements. A word of warning. If you released your source to the FreeBSD ports tree it would become public. It seems from your website that INRIA may have some commericial interest in Free Phone. Perhaps you might release your source to a trusted party within FreeBSD's organization. This person could then produce a 3.0 ELF version of your software for binary distribution. If releasing the source is not possible I would like to request a new port to 3.0 ELF FreeBSD. In any case, please let me know what you think. I look forward to hearing from you. Merci Beaucoup! Salut, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 3 03:19:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28493 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 03:19:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from citycom.com (mail.citycom.com [207.171.207.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA28487 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 03:19:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nordwick@xcf.berkeley.edu) Received: from yasmeen (38.28.60.30) by citycom.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Thu, 3 Dec 1998 03:18:00 -0800 Message-ID: <010301be1eae$b08ce8c0$1e3c1c26@yasmeen.citycom.com> From: "Jason Nordwick" To: Subject: Slashdot Book Review on the 4.4BSD book. Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 03:18:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I did a Book Review for Slashdot (http://slashdot.otg) on the 4.4BSD book and sent it in last night, but I noticed that I didn't get posted. So instead of assuming some conspiracy, I am assuming that it sucked, so I am going to post it here for people to improve, and I will resend it in when it gets better (although, I read the other Slashdot book reviews and I can say that they aren't too special, either, so I am leaning towards conspiracy theory). Please feel free to just send me diffs, rewrites, or just post them here (although, I don't really think everybody else wants to read them, so private is probably better). One of my majors in college is Comparative Literature, but please still be easy. In reading the other reviews, I noticed that they kept the format simple, text plain, and resembled what you would have written in Fourth grade, so I tried to stay with that. The last person who posted more of a literary critique (the kind you would find on Sunday in the New York Times Book Section), was flamed and called a pseudo-intellectual. Large vocabulary words have empirically scared the intended audience away (unless your initials are E.S.R., then you can do no wrong in writing). ---8<--- Cut Here ---8<--- The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System. Marshall Kirk McKusick, Keith Bostic, Michael J. Karels, John S. Quarterman 9/10 Only because it is a little dated; three years ago and it would get a ten. Written by everybody's favorite old-school kernel hackers, who could resist getting this. Who is this for? Contrary to what the title may say, this book is valuable to almost anyone who wants to learn part of the history of UNIX, how the kernel works, how it is designed, how to make applications take advantage of the services provided by the kernel, or just want to know a little more of what is going on underneath the hood. All the concepts can be applied to your favorite operating system. An understanding of the C language is probably necessary to understanding all of the text, but a good amount is accessible to anyone who wants to learn. Is this my father's Oldsmobile? The information in here may show its age. The book was reprinted in 1996, so it is not the most recent in all respects (such as a lack information on ELF), but nothing is useless; all the concepts are basically the same (and some of the code, too). What part of vnode did you not understand? Within each section, you will find a full description of what a specific part of the kernel is responsible for, along with analysis of why it is done this way, and also suggestions for how to make it better (sometimes they are in the form of end of chapter questions) or alternative thoughts at the time. And, if you cannot seem to follow the text (which is very thick at times), then all the pretty pictures are there to help you (okay, they look like the stick- figure xfig drawings that they are). Good illustrations of almost all structures are given, along with charts, of, say, what the run queue would look like during a few typical moments in the system. But, will I like it? Overall, this has to be one of the best learn by example systems books ever written. That is only if you like books that have ample sample source code, many illustrations, good explanations instead of appealing to authority (but if you would you prefer to defer to authority, you can look to the authors; it does not get much more authoritative than them), and very heavy on the facts. If the book it anything, it is dense. There is also an information section on the history of UNIX and what systems spawned what systems (along with a nice diagram of hierarchy that looks more like a bush than a tree). Some of the extras that make the book more than worthy are an excellent glossary and index at the end of the book. And at the end of each chapter are references to look directly towards for even more in-depth information. TOC Part I -- Overview Chapter 1 History and Goals 1.1 History of the UNIX System 1.2 BSD and Other Systems 1.3 Design Goals of 4BSD 1.4 Release Engineering Chapter 2 Design Overview of 4.4BSD 2.1 4.4BSD Facilities and the Kernel 2.2 Kernel Organization 2.3 Kernel Services 2.4 Process Management 2.5 Memory Management 2.6 I/O System 2.7 Filesystems 2.8 Filestores 2.9 Network Filesystems 2.10 Terminals 2.11 Interprocess Communication 2.12 Network Communication 2.13 Network Implementation 2.14 System Operation Chapter 3 Kernel Services 3.1 Kernel Organization 3.2 System Calls 3.3 Traps and Interrupts 3.4 Clock Interrupts 3.5 Memory-Management Services 3.6 Timing Services 3.7 User, Group, and Other Identifiers 3.8 Resource Services 3.9 System-Operation Services Part II -- Processes Chapter 4 Process Management 4.1 Introduction to Process Management 4.2 Process State 4.3 Context Switching 4.4 Process Scheduling 4.5 Process Creation 4.6 Process Termination 4.7 Signals 4.8 Process Groups and Sessions 4.9 Process Debugging Chapter 5 Memory Management 5.1 Terminology 5.2 Overview of the 4.4BSD Virtual-Memory System 5.3 Kernel Memory Management 5.4 Per-Process Resources 5.5 Shared Memory 5.6 Creation of a New Process 5.7 Execution of a File 5.8 Process Manipulation of Its Address Space 5.9 Termination of a Process 5.10 The Pager Interface 5.11 Paging 5.12 Page Replacement 5.13 Portability Part III -- I/O System Chapter 6 6.1 I/O Mapping from User to Device 6.2 Block Devices 6.3 Character Devices 6.4 Descriptor Management and Services 6.5 The Virtual-Filesystem Interface 6.6 Filesystem-Independent Services 6.7 Stackable Filesystems Chapter 7 Local Filesystems 7.1 Hierarchical Filesystem Management 7.2 Structure of an Inode 7.3 Naming 7.4 Quotas 7.5 File Locking 7.6 Other Filesystem Semantics Chapter 8 Local Filestores 8.1 Overview of a Filestore 8.2 The Berkeley Fast Filesystem 8.3 The Log-Structured Filesystem 8.4 The Memory-Based Filesystem Chapter 9 The Network Filesystem 9.1 History and Overview 9.2 NFS Structure and Opinion 9.3 Techniques for Improving Performance Chapter 10 Terminal Handling 10.1 Terminal-Processing Modes 10.2 Line Disciplines 10.3 User Interface 10.4 The tty Structure 10.5 Process Groups, Sessions, and Terminal Control 10.6 C-lists 10.7 RS-232 and Modem Control 10.8 Terminal Operations 10.9 Other Line Disciplines Part IV -- Interprocess Communication Chapter 11 11.1 Interprocess-Communication Model 11.2 Implementation Structure and Overview 11.3 Memory Management 11.4 Data Structures 11.5 Connection Setup 11.6 Data Transfer 11.7 Socket Shutdown Chapter 12 12.1 Internal Structure 12.2 Socket-to-Protocol Interface 12.3 Protocol-Protocol Interface 12.4 Interface Between Protocol and Network Interface 12.5 Routing 12.6 Buffering and Congestion Control 12.7 Raw Sockets 12.8 Additional Network-Subsystem Topics Chapter 13 Network Protocols 13.1 Internet Network Protocol 13.2 User Datagram Protocol 13.3 Internet Protocol (IP) 13.4 Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) 13.5 TCP Algorithms 13.6 TCP Input Processing 13.7 TCP Output Processing 13.8 Internet Control Message Protocol (ICMP) 13.9 OSI Implementation Issues 13.10 Summary of Networking and Interprocess Communication Part V -- System Operation Chapter 14 14.1 Overview 14.2 Bootstrapping 14.3 Kernel Initialization 14.4 Autoconfiguration 14.5 Machine-Independent Initialization 14.6 User-Level Initialization 14.7 System-Startup Topics To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 4 00:44:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09023 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (smtp.newsguy.com [207.211.168.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09015 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:44:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcsobral@newsguy.com) Received: (from dcsobral@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id AAA18961 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:44:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:44:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199812040844.AAA18961@newsguy.com> X-Mailer: Direct Read Email by Newsguy News Service To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Daniel C. Sobral" Subject: Re: Slashdot Book Review on the 4.4BSD book. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At Thu, 3 Dec 1998 03:18:43 -0800, you wrote > >(unless your initials are E.S.R., then you can do no wrong in writing). Change your name??? ;-> -- Daniel C. Sobral dcs@newsguy.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 5 00:50:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20553 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:50:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wasabi.it.uq.edu.au (wasabi.it.uq.edu.au [130.102.192.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA20532 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:50:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from d@fnarg.net.au) Received: from syncope.dl.fnarg.net.au (arcane.it.uq.edu.au [130.102.64.80]) by wasabi.it.uq.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13737; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:50:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (d@localhost) by syncope.dl.fnarg.net.au (8.9.1a/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12136; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:34:29 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: syncope.dl.fnarg.net.au: d owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:34:27 +1000 (EST) From: David Leonard Reply-To: David Leonard To: advocacy@openbsd.org cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <19981201035928.25921.qmail@measles.ecst.csuchico.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So far this thread has discussed - technical changes - licensing changes and - organisational/leadership changes There have also been implications that we are fighting for recognition against: - Linux - Microsoft Yet I have not seen anything yet that addresses the _immediate visibility_ of the *BSD camps. So, here is my AUS$0.05: It is pretty easy to start naively creating web sites and documentation merges for a '*BSD' site - in order to present the one-stop BSD shop. DaemonNews' success is true inspiration for starting such an activity. It is also straightforward to naively create mailing lists, newsgroups, and icb/irc/icq channels for a *BSD. However these would probably fail because in such fora, user-talk cannot be separated from developer-talk and surfacing distinctions between the three BSDs will again cause natural bifurcation. The only counter for this that I can think of is total mind control stemming from (i) strong leadership (ii) a common enemy/s or (iii) inherently perfect direction/ideology. So we see that user-contribution is perhaps the most important dynamic of any of the BSDs, as it is also the most important catalyst for divergence. So I strongly believe that it would be impossible to recombine the three camps insofar as their dynamic elements are concerned. There is also the great dialectic (trialectic?) currently achieved by the three camps by way of implementation osmosis which I would rather not see hindered. However, returning to the immediate visibility point, we really should concentrate on unified, published, stable artefacts in order to project a consitent and palatable image to the vast unwashed masses. Maybe this means having a www.bsd.org with a unified documentation tree employing apache magic to show the docs for a particular OS based on cookies or whatever!? jkh's multiple PR phone calls are good; more feeding of the press is good - but all in a *BSD-unified fashion. Projecting only a single-camp's image into the media will serve only to confuse the poor (BSD-poor) reader. SUGGESTION: In all future propaganda from all camps, some phrasing to describe the collective *BSD should be foremost. I already contribute to daemonnews and find it very rewarding blending openbsd's perspective into the freebsd+netbsd answerman files. The similarities in the codebases and the ingrained shared isms from traditional BSD are things that we can hang onto. It isn't as distasteful as you may (or may not) imagine. So I say: keep the diversity! Things are going great technology wise! But form a _unified public image_, because things aren't going great on the mindshare front. The word Linux is on people's lips. BSD isn't. Already we've seen people *on this thread* slip up about whether or not it was freebsd or netbsd that had an arm port or something. This is not a good sign. Long live *BSD. d PS: if after s/BSD/Unix/ has anyone mentioned posix yet? What about unix guru universe? what did they achieve? do we actually have critical mass? -- David Leonard David.Leonard@csee.uq.edu.au Dept of Comp. Sci. and Elec. Engg _ Ph:+61 7 3207 5332 (AH) The University of Queensland |+| http://www.csee.uq.edu.au/~leonard/ QLD 4072 AUSTRALIA ~` '~ E2A24DC6446E5779D7AFC41AA04E6401 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 5 01:16:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22471 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 01:16:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22462 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 01:16:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.149]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2A9A; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:15:58 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 10:21:22 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: David Leonard Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, advocacy@openbsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Dec-98 David Leonard wrote: > Maybe this means having a www.bsd.org with a unified documentation > tree employing apache magic to show the docs for a particular OS > based on cookies or whatever!? jkh's multiple PR phone calls are > good; more feeding of the press is good - but all in a *BSD-unified > fashion. Projecting only a single-camp's image into the media will > serve only to confuse the poor (BSD-poor) reader. If ye fired up yer browser and went to www.bsd.org ye see that it's already being used for the good of the BSD's. They are heavily under construction. btw, about the POSIX thing... NT tries to aim at POSIX compliance, so I'd say POSIX is important and we should be pushing that name some more. To attract developers we could be issueing some more statements with regard to the diverse and _free_ compilers that are out there. I for one am way more happy using *NIX now over Windows closed API's. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl | Cum angelis et pueris, Junior Network/Security Specialist | fideles inveniamur *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message