From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 12:20:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19392 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18974; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:17:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA23788; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:05:13 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Chris/Ross - I CC'd you so that are aware of it, and so that you can watch out for it in the future... Also, Chris... who's the right person at CMU to notify about this? ] So, I decided to take a look at the FreeBSD/alpha code that got checked in today. Nice to see that the CMU copyright was left out of locore.s, even though e.g. the following pieces were lifted basically verbatim from the NetBSD/alpha locore.s: - the SWITCH_CONTEXT macro - the kernel startup (locorestart) - the signal trampoline - the fpstate code Gee, pretty much the whole file! Amazing that Doug wrote that from scratch! Even the comments are the same! Uncanny! Also, looking at machdep.c: - alpha_dsr_sysname() [Where did you get your documentation on the DSR? Amazing that it looks _just like_ the code that I wrote for NetBSD/alpha...] - alpha_variation_name() - alpha_unknown_sysname() - identifycpu() - alpha_init() [a few tweaks here, but not many...] - setregs() [again, only a few tweaks here] - alpha_pa_access() This file is missing _BOTH_ the CMU and NetBSD Foundation, Inc. copyright notices. And vm_machdep.c: - cpu_fork() This file is missing the CMU copyright notice. *smirk* I wonder how many other copyright infringements are contained within "FreeBSD's" alpha port... Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 12:22:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20027 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19644; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cgd@pa.dec.com) Received: from dnaunix.pa.dec.com (dnaunix.pa.dec.com [16.4.208.21]) by mail1.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0e) with SMTP id MAA00959; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dnaunix.pa.dec.com; id AA08720; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:19:27 -0700 To: Jason Thorpe Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "Chris G. Demetriou" Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 98 12:05:13 PDT." <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 12:19:26 -0700 Message-Id: <4228.897506366@dnaunix.pa.dec.com> X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [ Chris/Ross - I CC'd you so that are aware of it, and so that you can > watch out for it in the future... Also, Chris... who's the right > person at CMU to notify about this? ] The standard CMU copyright should indicate a good place, If I recall. cgd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 12:39:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23543 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:39:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23269; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09429; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806101937.OAA09429@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Jun 10, 98 12:05:13 pm" To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Thorpe said: > > *smirk* I wonder how many other copyright infringements are contained > within "FreeBSD's" alpha port... > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. On the other hand, I have to give Chuck Cranor applause for the approach of trying to be complete in credits (even including me, when it seems that it wasn't due to me at all :-)). I actually feel bad about his mentioning me, not because of association, but due to me not feeling like I deserved it. So we all make mistakes, even with the common and thinly disguised shared VMspace stuff. I truly don't care about crdit, but do care more about intentions than legal fine-points. FreeBSD-alpha will definitely be a screamer though!!! :-). Since FreeBSD is very server optimized anyway, the Alpha is a very advantageous platform for us to support. There is NOTHING wrong with giving credit where credit is due, and absolutely NO minuses. I am one of the stronger proponents of proper credit, and will help participate in a solution of the problem (whichever way it goes.) Even if something is sourced from older technology, doesn't mean that it has the same limitations!!! -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 13:10:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01804 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:10:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01146; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA14670; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:09:50 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:09:49 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: "John S. Dyson" cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806101937.OAA09429@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > Jason Thorpe said: > > > > *smirk* I wonder how many other copyright infringements are contained > > within "FreeBSD's" alpha port... > > > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in > NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be > co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. This was an honest mistake Jason. I started both files from scratch at a time when I wasn't sure I could use any code from NetBSD/alpha. The NetBSD code came in during an 8 hour hacking session when I was getting the kernel to link and the copyrights got missed. Thanks for pointing it out so politely. I have added the relavent copyright to each of these files. If you see any other problems, be sure and let me know. A simple note by private email will suffice. > FreeBSD-alpha will definitely be a screamer though!!! :-). Since > FreeBSD is very server optimized anyway, the Alpha is a very > advantageous platform for us to support. There is NOTHING wrong > with giving credit where credit is due, and absolutely NO minuses. I have no idea what the performance will be since I haven't actually done much with it. I expect it to perform fairly well after tuning though. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 13:21:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04449 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:21:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03750; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA24467; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102006.NAA24467@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:06:19 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) "John S. Dyson" wrote: > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in > NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be > co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. This is a MUCH more serious issue than "due credit in a commit message". I seem to recall noting that the vmspace sharing code was somewhat based on FreeBSD's (although it is a little different, and the data structure were more-or-less ready for it, and the implementation _is_ obvious) when I committed it to the NetBSD source tree... but _I DID NOT INFRINGE ON ANYONE'S COPYRIGHT_... that is the issue. John: So nice of you to reply in your typical "we love everyone" warm-fuzzy manner, rather than addressing the SERIOUS ISSUE of a FreeBSD developer REMOVING copyright notices from code, copied _verbatim_ (right down to the comments), REPLACING IT WITH HIS OWN. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 13:50:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11808 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:50:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11247; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:48:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09808; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806102048.PAA09808@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806102006.NAA24467@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Jun 10, 98 01:06:19 pm" To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Thorpe said: > On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in > > NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be > > co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. > > This is a MUCH more serious issue than "due credit in a commit message". > I seem to recall noting that the vmspace sharing code was somewhat based on > FreeBSD's (although it is a little different, and the data structure were > more-or-less ready for it, and the implementation _is_ obvious) when I > committed it to the NetBSD source tree... but _I DID NOT INFRINGE ON > ANYONE'S COPYRIGHT_... that is the issue. > > John: So nice of you to reply in your typical "we love everyone" warm-fuzzy > manner, rather than addressing the SERIOUS ISSUE of a FreeBSD developer > REMOVING copyright notices from code, copied _verbatim_ (right down to > the comments), REPLACING IT WITH HIS OWN. > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other than on purely legal necessity. *sigh* so much for being kind and helpful to your co-developers of your software. :-(. This lack of kindness and respect for people and their inventiveness is why we need to play games dealing with legal issues. I guess we need the law to protect us from mistakes, and people who have no respect for others inventiveness. We need the law to protect both from mistakes (like the recent commits), and intentions. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 14:09:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17554 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:09:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16875; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA24707; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:53 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) "John S. Dyson" wrote: > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right > away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are > showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other > than on purely legal necessity. ...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available via the exported RCS information. Y'know, I wouldn't be so upset about this, except for the fact that this is not the first time that something like this has happened. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 14:16:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19894 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19169; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09812; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:13:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806102113.PAA09812@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Jason Thorpe cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:53 PDT." <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:09:07 -0600 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head >revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available >via the exported RCS information. And you still have legal recourse to defend your claim to that code regardless of whether the copyright is there or not. Your legal rights are the same regardless of whether the user pulls the revision out of CVS that lacks your copyright or they delete the copyrights manually. >Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov >NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 >NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 >Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 14:23:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21839 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21010; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25613; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:19:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd025502; Wed Jun 10 14:19:50 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12095; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:19:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102119.OAA12095@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:19:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Jun 10, 98 12:05:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [ Chris/Ross - I CC'd you so that are aware of it, and so that you can > watch out for it in the future... Also, Chris... who's the right > person at CMU to notify about this? ] > > So, I decided to take a look at the FreeBSD/alpha code that got checked > in today. > > Nice to see that the CMU copyright was left out of locore.s, even though > e.g. the following pieces were lifted basically verbatim from the NetBSD/alpha > locore.s: [ ... ] I don't think this was intentional "theft of work"; I think you just got an intermediate tree; clearly FreeBSD doesn't yet run on Alpha enough for it to be an issue. Yet. It will *definitely* be an issue later, however. Did you contact Doug directly? Also: isn't there precedent for removal of per-file copyright notices in favor of agregate notices? It may be that at least the CMU code is already covered under one of the blanket statements. I know that some of my code was "blanketed" in the same way by other BSD's (and even in VXWorks, from one vendor). I know that I was personally *real* offended by /bin/true and /bin/false have a zillion lines of copyright in them for a near-noop... though not as offended as when they were converted to binaries for stupid "copyright and intellectual protperty" claims. Certainly, credit that is not covered in a blanket statement should be given on individual files. Part of the problem may be that FreeBSD has a larger exposure of the internals of the source code control; is it more correct to commit the blanket copyright statement before the code, or vice versa? At what point is it required that the blanket statement be checked in... at the instant the other file is checked in? That's impossible. I think the answer is "as soon as is reasonable and prudent". That said, the exposed internals of the FreeBSD source control could certainly cause the commits to be construed as publication; therefore the blanket and/or file statements might have a requirement of being in sooner rather than later, when the code is actually usable on an Alpha system not running Linux. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 14:36:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25510 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:36:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24779; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:33:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10047; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:33:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806102133.QAA10047@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Jun 10, 98 01:54:53 pm" To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:33:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Thorpe said: > On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right > > away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are > > showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other > > than on purely legal necessity. > > ...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head > revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available > via the exported RCS information. > > Y'know, I wouldn't be so upset about this, except for the fact that this > is not the first time that something like this has happened. > Ditto, and private communications are less damaging to both the messenger and the receiver of the message. My intentions about credit (personally) are true, and sometimes find that peoples public stance and actual behavior are inconsistent. I believe that people should be polite regarding credit, and as a side effect will strive to be complete and accurate legally. I think that following only the letter of the law can still be very impolite. All this said, I would be very surprised if the code stagnates as it is, and it is not likely that it will stay technologically the way it is for long. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 14:44:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27340 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26832; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:42:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22746; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:42:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd022658; Wed Jun 10 14:41:57 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13184; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:41:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102141.OAA13184@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:41:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Jun 10, 98 01:54:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right > > away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are > > showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other > > than on purely legal necessity. > > ...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head > revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available > via the exported RCS information. But only via extraction from a file that has the information in it; I think the copyright notice on the RCS file covers the derivatives of that file. It's not like you can "cvs co" without having the full file available to you. I could make the same argument about the copyrights on my LKM code, which are not visible when I install NetBSD from a disk image, as when I installed my HP340 box. They would be just as invalid, given the blanketting and file level associativity of copyright statements. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 15:07:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02465 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01820; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13537; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102202.PAA13537@implode.root.com> To: Jason Thorpe cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:53 PDT." <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:02:38 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right > > away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are > > showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other > > than on purely legal necessity. > >...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head >revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available >via the exported RCS information. > >Y'know, I wouldn't be so upset about this, except for the fact that this >is not the first time that something like this has happened. If this is indeed "not the first time that something like this has happened", and there is another instance where this needs to be corrected, then by all means point it out so that it can be corrected. I'm not aware of any such cases ever occuring before myself, however. Regarding this specific instance, we've been working with Doug for years now and I know him to be an honest person. Given the evolution of the files involved - being built up from various pieces and not starting whole, I'm not too surprised that some copyrights were missed. I assume that Doug will take care of this immediately. If he doesn't then we'll take appropriate action. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 15:36:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09129 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (lunacity.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.118.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08529; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:34:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mycroft@lunacity.ne.mediaone.net) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA20156; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:35:14 -0400 (EDT) To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: Jason Thorpe , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806102113.PAA09812@pluto.plutotech.com> From: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:35:13 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Justin T. Gibbs"'s message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:09:07 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Justin T. Gibbs" writes: > >...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head > >revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available > >via the exported RCS information. > > And you still have legal recourse to defend your claim to that code > regardless of whether the copyright is there or not. Your legal rights are > the same regardless of whether the user pulls the revision out of CVS that > lacks your copyright or they delete the copyrights manually. And you still are distributing a version that violates the license (c.f. `must retain the above copyright notice, ...'). And we are still informing you that you are doing so, which seems substantially more courteous than immediately talking to a lawyer about it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 15:44:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10735 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:44:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (lunacity.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.118.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10261; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:41:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mycroft@lunacity.ne.mediaone.net) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA20162; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:42:14 -0400 (EDT) To: dg@root.com Cc: Jason Thorpe , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806102202.PAA13537@implode.root.com> From: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:42:13 -0400 In-Reply-To: David Greenman's message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:02:38 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman writes: > If this is indeed "not the first time that something like this has > happened", and there is another instance where this needs to be corrected, > then by all means point it out so that it can be corrected. I'm not aware > of any such cases ever occuring before myself, however. I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 15:55:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13037 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:55:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adam.adonai.net (adam.adonai.net [207.8.83.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12710; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:53:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leec@adonai.net) Received: from adonai.net (adam.adonai.net [207.8.83.2]) by adam.adonai.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17011; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:53:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <357F0E6D.2197C24E@adonai.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:53:33 -0500 From: Lee Crites Organization: Adonai Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806102202.PAA13537@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gentlemen (I *assume* that term can apply); You have your list to carry out your argument. Please don't bother the -hackers email list with it. Actually, the fact that this is being carried on in the -hackers list instead of just the -alpha list (where it belongs) calls into question the intent of the original message as it is... Lee To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 16:01:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14178 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero.simon-shapiro.org.142.69.207.in-addr.arpa [207.69.142.25] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14098 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:00:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 28757 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Jun 1998 00:02:44 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199806102006.NAA24467@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Jason Thorpe Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Cc: core@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, cgd@netbsd.org, core@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-Jun-98 Jason Thorpe wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in > > NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be > > co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. > > This is a MUCH more serious issue than "due credit in a commit message". > I seem to recall noting that the vmspace sharing code was somewhat based > on > FreeBSD's (although it is a little different, and the data structure were > more-or-less ready for it, and the implementation _is_ obvious) when I > committed it to the NetBSD source tree... but _I DID NOT INFRINGE ON > ANYONE'S COPYRIGHT_... that is the issue. > > John: So nice of you to reply in your typical "we love everyone" > warm-fuzzy > manner, rather than addressing the SERIOUS ISSUE of a FreeBSD developer > REMOVING copyright notices from code, copied _verbatim_ (right down to > the comments), REPLACING IT WITH HIS OWN. Hi Jason, I really do not know you. Just as much as I do not know most of the others, except for association by e-mail. I sent you a private note, proposing some cooperation between us on issues that will matter and benefit us both. Since I did not receive any reply, I was concerned maybe your e-mail was not working properly. I am glad to see that it does. Now that we have ``proof'' (albeit not legal proof) that your email does work, would you kindly relate to us your opinion of cooperating. I think I know your opinion on code sharing by now :-) Simon BTW, What is wrong with viewing the world with ``we love everyone'' attitude? I, for one love almost everyone. including you :-) Simon --- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG 770.265.7340 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 16:21:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18119 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:21:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18114; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA25810; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102309.QAA25810@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:09:00 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ I trimmed the CC a bit... ] On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Simon Shapiro wrote: > I sent you a private note, proposing some cooperation between us on issues > that will matter and benefit us both. Yes, I got your message... and I even thought I replied with "Aie, I'm buried with work right now, and I'll get back to you." It is entirely possible that my reply didn't actually get sent (sigh, that happens when I am swamped, as has been the case for the last couple of months...) Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 17:16:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28586 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28258; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10898; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:14:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110014.TAA10898@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: from "Charles M. Hannum" at "Jun 10, 98 06:42:13 pm" To: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:14:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Charles M. Hannum said: > > David Greenman writes: > > > If this is indeed "not the first time that something like this has > > happened", and there is another instance where this needs to be corrected, > > then by all means point it out so that it can be corrected. I'm not aware > > of any such cases ever occuring before myself, however. > > I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly > recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, > and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in > a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder > -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. > > At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. > I remember something about that, but the allegations were very very untrue. I even witnessed the evolution of the code in question. At best, the allegation was a mistake. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 17:40:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02808 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr (inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr [193.54.152.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02313; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr) Received: from neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr [192.168.3.2]) by inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA28750; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:33:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (smt@alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr [192.168.3.9]) by neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA23712; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:38:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (smt@localhost) by alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12086; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:33:27 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr: smt owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:33:26 +0200 (CEST) From: "Srdjan M. Tijanic" To: Jason Thorpe cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806102006.NAA24467@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org First word : I am using FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD (in alphabetical order). About Copyright : Why don't create something like "*BSD Copyright" ? Last word : My prefered OS is *BSD ! --- smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr http://www.cs.univ-paris8.fr/~smt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 17:42:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03360 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (lunacity.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.118.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02760; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mycroft@lunacity.ne.mediaone.net) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA20587; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:40:32 -0400 (EDT) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806110014.TAA10898@dyson.iquest.net> From: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:40:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: "John S. Dyson"'s message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:14:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "John S. Dyson" writes: > Charles M. Hannum said: > > > > I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly > > recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, > > and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in > > a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder > > -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. > > > > At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. > > > I remember something about that, but the allegations were very > very untrue. I even witnessed the evolution of the code in question. > At best, the allegation was a mistake. That's *not* true. In the case in question, the code was *clearly* copied, and in fact a notice was later added -- but only after repeated insults and harassment by you, Garrett and Rod. Indeed, at one point I was told that a superset of the code had had my copyright notice removed and was sent to the Copyright Office to be registered under someone else's name (an allegation which itself appears to have been false). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 18:06:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08505 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nanguo.chalmers.com.au (gateway.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07934; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@chalmers.com.au) Received: from chalmers.com.au (carbon.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.26]) by nanguo.chalmers.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06778; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:02:12 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <357F2EFC.958201C2@chalmers.com.au> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:12:28 +1000 From: Robert Chalmers Reply-To: robert@chalmers.com.au Organization: chalmers.com.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Charles M. Hannum" CC: dg@root.com, Jason Thorpe , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Enough Already!!! Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806102202.PAA13537@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Charles M. Hannum wrote: > > David Greenman writes: > > > If this is indeed "not the first time that something like this has > > happened", and there is another instance where this needs to be corrected, > > then by all means point it out so that it can be corrected. I'm not aware > > of any such cases ever occuring before myself, however. > > I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly > recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, > and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in > a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder > -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. > > At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- Support Whirled Peas. Business in China? China House robert@chalmers.com.au ph:61 7 49440357 fx:61 7 49578425 China House Uses Webposition to ensure Top Spot in Searches http://www.chalmers.com.au/ChinaHouse/Business/webposition To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 18:17:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09942 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09698; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11224; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110115.UAA11224@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: from "Charles M. Hannum" at "Jun 10, 98 08:40:31 pm" To: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Charles M. Hannum said: > > "John S. Dyson" writes: > > > Charles M. Hannum said: > > > > > > I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly > > > recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, > > > and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in > > > a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder > > > -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. > > > > > > At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. > > > > > I remember something about that, but the allegations were very > > very untrue. I even witnessed the evolution of the code in question. > > At best, the allegation was a mistake. > > That's *not* true. In the case in question, the code was *clearly* > copied, and in fact a notice was later added -- but only after > repeated insults and harassment by you, Garrett and Rod. Indeed, at > one point I was told that a superset of the code had had my copyright > notice removed and was sent to the Copyright Office to be registered > under someone else's name (an allegation which itself appears to have > been false). > That isn't true, if you are speaking of if_ed.c. Again, I wasn't the author, but I witnessed the evolution. The only reason for the flamage was outrage. If the claim wasn't so outrageous, I would have understood it better. The amazing thing about this was that the driver wasn't brain surgery, except took many hours of testing and debugging that I participated in with the author. Bottom line, such code is behind us, and in the future we are better covered by keeping up-to-date, publically available source code control. For example, I can show the evolution of our code base now, where before, I couldn't. It would probably be good to check code in more often, in order to make sure that specious claims aren't made against it. The problem we have with that is that we do have problems with others grabbing ideas from our stuff without attribution, and using it competitively. I guess the good news is that our codebases are diverging?!?!?!? In order to protect FreeBSD from NetBSD's litigious nature, it seems that is best? That is sad :-(. I suspect that due to the lack of cooperation, or cooperative attitude from NetBSD, that FreeBSD will eventually move forward with a less encumbered Alpha codebase, pushing the technology. We can either work together, or make each other enemies. I wonder how long sniping from NetBSD to FreeBSD will continue? -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 18:27:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11545 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11269; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11277; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:25:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110125.UAA11277@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: from "Srdjan M. Tijanic" at "Jun 11, 98 02:33:26 am" To: smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (Srdjan M. Tijanic) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:25:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Srdjan M. Tijanic said: > > First word : > I am using FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD (in alphabetical order). > > About Copyright : > Why don't create something like "*BSD Copyright" ? > > Last word : > My prefered OS is *BSD ! > Certain groups have problems internally with their own copyright issues, how can we all agree when they have historically not been able to agree with themselves??? I am personally for the non-advertising clause pseudo-BSD copyright, in order to simplify commercialization of the code. Whatever is on the license can significantly change how code can effectively be used. If one is needing self-engrandisement, they can put all kinds of advertising clauses on the code. Of course, that can decrease the desirability of the code signficantly, even if the code is technically excellent. If the goal is for the code to be used, and while at it, make some money on it yourself, then simpler licenses with simple credits clauses are desirable. It seems to me that the license (and relative litigious nature) provided by the author is part of the formula that gives software value, along with technical excellence and applicability issues. All this said, if a license is totally unacceptable, or the risk is judged too high, the codebases will soon totally diverge. The existance of a project will not be in jeopardy, but usage of individual components will change as needed. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 18:40:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13852 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13425; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA26554; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:25:59 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) "John S. Dyson" wrote: > I guess the good news is that our codebases are diverging?!?!?!? > In order to protect FreeBSD from NetBSD's litigious nature, it > seems that is best? That is sad :-(. I suspect that due to > the lack of cooperation, or cooperative attitude from NetBSD, that > FreeBSD will eventually move forward with a less encumbered Alpha > codebase, pushing the technology. We can either work together, > or make each other enemies. I wonder how long sniping from > NetBSD to FreeBSD will continue? What planet are you on, John? NetBSD's code is NO MORE ENCUMBERED than FreeBSD's. The fact that we bitched about a copyright notice botch DOES NOT MEAN that NetBSD's code is somehow "more encumbered". I suspect if I removed your copyright notice from the async i/o stuff you wrote, put my own at the top, and then committed it to the NetBSD source tree, you'd be a bit annoyed, too. NOW... Doug - I'm sorry that I came off rather harshly. I could have, and should have, reacted differently. The notice botch was one of many (unrelated) straws that broke the camel's back. That's not really an excuse for my behavior, but please accept my apology. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 18:41:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13998 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:41:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13534; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA17067; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:39:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jason Thorpe cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:05:13 PDT." <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:39:03 -0700 Message-ID: <17063.897529143@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > *smirk* I wonder how many other copyright infringements are contained > within "FreeBSD's" alpha port... 1. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, I'm sure it was not out of malice that the code was checked in this way and we're certainly happy to go back and fix any copyright/attribution information which was inadvertantly left out. Doug has been working with a large colletion of sources lately, NetBSD probably playing an even smaller roll than Linux considering that NetBSD did not, until very recently, work on his Miata, and such confusion is easy to understand. 2. If it's truly your goal to foster better relations between our two groups, and you've certainly intimated as such during our previous meetings, then I can only suggest more talking and less smirking. There's absolutely no need for that kind of behavior here, and it's nothing more than simple indulgence on your part to display it. It doesn't further our progress in any way. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 19:05:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18350 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr (inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr [193.54.152.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17901; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr) Received: from neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr [192.168.3.2]) by inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA29230; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (smt@alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr [192.168.3.9]) by neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24027; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 04:04:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (smt@localhost) by alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA12103; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:32 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr: smt owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:32 +0200 (CEST) From: "Srdjan M. Tijanic" To: "John S. Dyson" cc: "Charles M. Hannum" , dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806110115.UAA11224@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This story start to look like a story of Netscape vs. IE !!! Shame on you. Where is Ghandi ??? --- smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr http://www.cs.univ-paris8.fr/~smt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 19:23:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21904 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:23:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21725; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11647; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:20:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110220.VAA11647@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Jun 10, 98 06:25:59 pm" To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:20:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Thorpe said: > > What planet are you on, John? NetBSD's code is NO MORE ENCUMBERED than > FreeBSD's. The fact that we bitched about a copyright notice botch DOES > NOT MEAN that NetBSD's code is somehow "more encumbered". > > I suspect if I removed your copyright notice from the async i/o stuff > you wrote, put my own at the top, and then committed it to the NetBSD > source tree, you'd be a bit annoyed, too. > > NOW... > .... A kind, reminding notice would have fostered better communications. My comments about NetBSD's encumberance are rooted in the Alpha issues that NetBSD has had. By fully removing NetBSD encumberances, we can get rid of the NetBSD --> FreeBSD sniping clause??? Encumberances aren't just legal, and if as bonafide users of your code, we are also going to be sniped at, that is just as bad as an obnoxious advertising clause. :-). If we made a mistake, a private message would have done nicely. I have NO interest in and in fact seriously offended by theft of code, and you can gain great cooperation by working *with* us. If you would have removed the copyright from the AIO stuff, you would have gotten a message to core@NetBSD.org, cc:core@freeBSD.org. That would have been equivalent to an infringement letter. Such letters are not generally publically disclosed, are they? Of course, that is probably true, unless the sending party is doing so for some weird political reason, right? If you are believing the anecdotal issues regarding the misappropriation of early driver code, you are being mislead. That is probably one major reason why I have not trusted (or liked) certain NetBSD people since. To me, that was the end of future dealings with or around NetBSD (one cannot deal with those that one cannot trust.) You are very welcome to use any code that I write which is under the BSD copyright (or freer.) Just *please* don't take ideas from my work without attribution... That is probably in the realm of mostly legal, but very rude (and shows a little bit of deceit, by taking credit for someone elses inventiveness.) This only reinforces my opinion originating several years ago. Believe it or not, certain obvious things weren't that obvious, were they? If they were, why didn't those obvious things appear before I did them? The code has been there for how many years? It is best not to snipe, and I would greatly appreciate it if you would quit stirring the pot. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 19:24:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22235 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:24:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21881; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:22:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11654; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:22:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110222.VAA11654@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: from "Srdjan M. Tijanic" at "Jun 11, 98 03:59:32 am" To: smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (Srdjan M. Tijanic) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:22:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, mycroft@mit.edu, dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Srdjan M. Tijanic said: > > This story start to look like a story of Netscape vs. IE !!! > > Shame on you. > > Where is Ghandi ??? > It takes generations to solve these problems, when those who remember the wrongs die off. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 19:37:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24608 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:37:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24268; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:35:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA14842; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806110233.TAA14842@implode.root.com> To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum), thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 CDT." <199806110115.UAA11224@dyson.iquest.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:33:36 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> That's *not* true. In the case in question, the code was *clearly* >> copied, and in fact a notice was later added -- but only after >> repeated insults and harassment by you, Garrett and Rod. Indeed, at >> one point I was told that a superset of the code had had my copyright >> notice removed and was sent to the Copyright Office to be registered >> under someone else's name (an allegation which itself appears to have >> been false). >> >That isn't true, if you are speaking of if_ed.c. Actually, I believe he is talking about if_ie.c. In that case there was some code, apparantly that had the origin of NetBSD/mycroft that was used in some way to add the 3c507 support. I must admit that I had completely forgotten about this (it was something like 4 years ago, after all). I don't know how much of his code was "copied", but nonetheless, I think Charles was poorly treated in that instance. For those that remember the environment that all of that occured in, it shouldn't be too surprising. Anyway, I'd really like to put this issue behind us. I see no reason to open old wounds and the mistake that Doug made has been corrected - even the RCS files have been purged of the old rev at Jason's request. On behalf of the FreeBSD Project, I offer our sincere apologies that the mistake was made in the first place and I want to thank Jason for pointing it out so that it could be promptly corrected. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 19:41:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25490 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24835; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29334; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:32:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Jason Thorpe cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Jason Thorpe wrote: > Doug - I'm sorry that I came off rather harshly. I could have, and should > have, reacted differently. The notice botch was one of many (unrelated) I think this is the point where everyone goes back and reads what someone dubbed Dyson's "We love everyone" original reply, solemnly swears to "always cache a copy or their code's credits", and goes back to hacking. I'm sure Doug, of course, is already quickly checking his work to make sure that no other uncredited code snuck into the open. An unintentionally harsh reply is _at least_ as forgiveable as unintentionally uncredited code. :-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 19:43:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25858 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25258; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:40:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11806; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:40:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110240.VAA11806@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806110233.TAA14842@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Jun 10, 98 07:33:36 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:40:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, mycroft@mit.edu, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman said: > >> > >That isn't true, if you are speaking of if_ed.c. > > Actually, I believe he is talking about if_ie.c. In that case there was > some code, apparantly that had the origin of NetBSD/mycroft that was used > in some way to add the 3c507 support. I must admit that I had completely > forgotten about this (it was something like 4 years ago, after all). I don't > know how much of his code was "copied", but nonetheless, I think Charles was > poorly treated in that instance. For those that remember the environment > that all of that occured in, it shouldn't be too surprising. > Ohhh if it was the ie thing (which I don't even remember), then I am probably wrong. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jun 10 23:40:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04667 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:40:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA04488; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:39:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28103; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:38:12 +0200 (CEST) To: Jason Thorpe cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:25:59 PDT." <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:38:11 +0200 Message-ID: <28101.897547091@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov>, Jason Thorpe writes: >On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > I guess the good news is that our codebases are diverging?!?!?!? > > In order to protect FreeBSD from NetBSD's litigious nature, it > > seems that is best? That is sad :-(. I suspect that due to > > the lack of cooperation, or cooperative attitude from NetBSD, that > > FreeBSD will eventually move forward with a less encumbered Alpha > > codebase, pushing the technology. We can either work together, > > or make each other enemies. I wonder how long sniping from > > NetBSD to FreeBSD will continue? > >What planet are you on, John? NetBSD's code is NO MORE ENCUMBERED than >FreeBSD's. The fact that we bitched about a copyright notice botch DOES >NOT MEAN that NetBSD's code is somehow "more encumbered". Interesting, If you have gotten rid of the NET2 stuff in your repository, couldn't you extend CVS read-only access to more people then ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Jun 11 06:19:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10360 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:19:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09900; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199806111317.GAA09900@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA067451027; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:17:07 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:17:07 +1000 (EST) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199806110220.VAA11647@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Jun 10, 98 09:20:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Blah, you're all being very lame about this, IMHO. If people aren't going to credit work, then that's their problem. They're losers and probably have some sort of penis envy problem too. If you get depressed or angered over this then I reckon you've got bigger problems to worry about. Doing the work is more important than how many places your name is up in lights (well, I think so anyway). If you feel really like you've been robbed, speak to your lawyer. I don't understand why it is difficult for anyone to acknowledge the origins of source code written because so long as it is redistributable (as it is for nearly all *BSD code), it simply shouldn't matter. Just leave your ego at home. hmpf Too bad someone didn't see fit to cc the openbsd in this as well. I suspect there is blame to be shared there too, if blaming is what people want to do. Quite pathetic, really. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message