From owner-freebsd-atm Mon Dec 28 10:55:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02632 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:55:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02616 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:55:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA74436 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:54:52 +0100 (CET) To: atm@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:54:50 +0100 Message-ID: <74434.914871290@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok gang, I would like to know if we have any users of ATM in FreeBSD and which of the two implementations you use ("Cranor" or "HARP"). I am seriously considering retiring the Chuck Cranors ATM stuff leaving HARP in the tree to handle it all. Only casualty I know of would be support for Adaptec cards. Comments ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Mon Dec 28 11:49:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09199 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:49:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from east.isi.edu (east.isi.edu [38.245.76.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09180; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:49:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from suresh@ISI.EDU) Received: from fuji.east.isi.edu by east.isi.edu (8.8.5/5.61+local-24) id ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:48:46 GMT Message-Id: <199812281948.TAA18396@east.isi.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: east.isi.edu: fuji.east.isi.edu [38.245.76.62] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: atm@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: suresh@ISI.EDU Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:54:50 +0100. <74434.914871290@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:55:06 EST From: Suresh Bhogavilli Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excerpts from what Poul-Henning Kamp said on 28 Dec 1998: > I would like to know if we have any users of ATM in FreeBSD and which > of the two implementations you use ("Cranor" or "HARP"). The CAIRN testbed (www.cairn.net) and the participant sites use Adaptec ATM interfaces almost exclusively. We use a variant of the Chuck Cranor's driver to support PVCs as distinct network interfaces, with support for traffic control, INRIA's IPv6 stack etc. I know of people using another variant of Cranor's driver that supports ALTQ. We depend on our mods to make ATM emulate leased lines. Currently we distribute our variant of the driver separately, but ideally we would like to see atleast some of these extensions merged into FreeBSD tree. Of course, that depends on continued support of Cranor's ATM driver. I'm attempting to make a case for that. thanks, suresh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Mon Dec 28 11:52:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09874 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:52:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov (mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.166.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09859; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uhl@mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov) Received: (from uhl@localhost) by mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.4) id OAA27373; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:52:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:52:10 -0500 (EST) From: George Uhl Message-Id: <199812281952.OAA27373@mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov> To: atm@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: EHd6vPP4A+qsE+3S4gvlnA== Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I consider any loss of support to the Cranor driver to be a major blow. I use Kenjiro Cho's ALTQ modified Cranor driver for IP QoS test and analysis. I also use a different modified Cranor driver for my participation in the CAIRN (www.cairn.net) community. Although both modified drivers have taken digressed from the original Cranor driver I've always hoped that somehow both modified drivers could be merged into a new ATM driver that has very robust IP QoS support. Furthermore, the new driver could be continued as a part of the FreeBSD tree. I don't know how ISI (CAIRN) or Sony (ALTQ) will react to FreeBSD dropping support to the Cranor driver. Maybe they don't care and I'm merely overreacting. I don't know if there are plans to migrate the QoS functionality to the HARP driver (this might depend on what FreeBSD does). Yet I feel that the loss of FreeBSD's support for the Cranor driver may kill any hopes of merging the existing IP QoS functionality into an ATM driver. George Uhl ESDIS Network Prototyping Lab NASA GSFC > From owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 28 14:07 EST 1998 > To: atm@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! > From: Poul-Henning Kamp > Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:54:50 +0100 > X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Ok gang, > > I would like to know if we have any users of ATM in FreeBSD and which > of the two implementations you use ("Cranor" or "HARP"). > > I am seriously considering retiring the Chuck Cranors ATM stuff leaving > HARP in the tree to handle it all. Only casualty I know of would be > support for Adaptec cards. > > Comments ? > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member > phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." > "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Mon Dec 28 11:54:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10209 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:54:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09948 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:53:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA74766; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:52:17 +0100 (CET) To: suresh@ISI.EDU cc: atm@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:55:06 EST." <199812281948.TAA18396@east.isi.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:52:16 +0100 Message-ID: <74764.914874736@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199812281948.TAA18396@east.isi.edu>, Suresh Bhogavilli writes: >Currently we distribute our variant of the driver separately, but >ideally we would like to see atleast some of these extensions merged >into FreeBSD tree. Of course, that depends on continued support of >Cranor's ATM driver. I'm attempting to make a case for that. What would it take to sway you guys over to use HARP instead ? It has much more complete protcol support, and is generally a lot better written than Cranors driver... -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Mon Dec 28 12:23:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13815 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:23:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from east.isi.edu (east.isi.edu [38.245.76.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13807 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from suresh@ISI.EDU) Received: from fuji.east.isi.edu by east.isi.edu (8.8.5/5.61+local-24) id ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:09:25 GMT Message-Id: <199812282009.UAA18438@east.isi.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: east.isi.edu: fuji.east.isi.edu [38.245.76.62] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: atm@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: suresh@ISI.EDU Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:52:16 +0100. <74764.914874736@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:15:45 EST From: Suresh Bhogavilli Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excerpts from what Poul-Henning Kamp said on 28 Dec 1998: > What would it take to sway you guys over to use HARP instead ? The same functionality that we put in the Cranor's ATM driver (which I mentioned in my previous mail) :-) I never looked at the HARP code to see how easy/difficult it is to add those features. Obviously, Cranor's driver requires not much more effort. Let's see if there are any more users of Cranor's. thanks, suresh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Mon Dec 28 12:46:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17251 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:46:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov (mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.166.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17246 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:46:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uhl@mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov) Received: (from uhl@localhost) by mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.4) id PAA27459; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:32:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:32:52 -0500 (EST) From: George Uhl Message-Id: <199812282032.PAA27459@mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov> To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk, suresh@ISI.EDU Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! Cc: atm@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: lp0LGA4/RfX0DH7necRmkQ== Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 28 15:26 EST 1998 > X-Authentication-Warning: east.isi.edu: fuji.east.isi.edu [38.245.76.62] didn't use HELO protocol > To: Poul-Henning Kamp > cc: atm@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:15:45 EST > From: Suresh Bhogavilli > X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Excerpts from what Poul-Henning Kamp said on 28 Dec 1998: > > > What would it take to sway you guys over to use HARP instead ? > > The same functionality that we put in the Cranor's ATM driver (which > I mentioned in my previous mail) :-) > Yes, as well as the modifications for ALTQ made by Kenjiro Cho of Sony. George Uhl NASA GSFC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Mon Dec 28 17:00:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23936 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:00:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk (bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.5.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA23931 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from P.Gevros@cs.ucl.ac.uk) Received: from sporty.cs.ucl.ac.uk by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:55:09 +0000 To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk, atm@FreeBSD.ORG cc: P.Gevros@cs.ucl.ac.uk Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:32:52 EST." <199812282032.PAA27459@mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:55:08 +0100 Message-ID: <2652.914892908@cs.ucl.ac.uk> From: Panos GEVROS Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org at UCL we are using the cairn version of Cranor's driver as well as the modified for ALTQ one, both as part of the CAIRN project and in a research testbed that connects several universities in the U.K we are also planning yet more extensive use of it in the near future. ideally we would like to see the CAIRN version which admittedly has some really neat features -if possible with ALTQ support- to be the one in future FreeBSD releases; we dont care about SVCs that much , it has clean handling of interfaces, rate limiting , supports IPv6 , routing protocols nicely handle the interfaces as separate links, if it had hooks for the red, cbq etc. disciplines that come from Sony's ALTQ we couldnt possibly ask for more.. having in mind PC routers. also imho it seems quite a strategic decision to be taken these days when the list(s) is (almost..) asleep :) cheers Panos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Mon Dec 28 20:26:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13646 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (widefw.csl.sony.co.jp [133.138.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13640; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:26:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kjc@csl.sony.co.jp) Received: from hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (root@hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp [43.27.98.57]) by widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.8/3.6W) with ESMTP id NAA15585; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:26:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (kjc@[127.0.0.1]) by hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.8/3.6W/hotaka/98122515) with ESMTP id NAA15387; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:26:07 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199812290426.NAA15387@hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp> To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: atm@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:54:50 +0100." <74434.914871290@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:26:07 +0900 From: Kenjiro Cho Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Poul-Henning Kamp said: >> I am seriously considering retiring the Chuck Cranors ATM stuff leaving >> HARP in the tree to handle it all. Only casualty I know of would be >> support for Adaptec cards. >> Comments ? It would be nice if all the different functions can be supported by a single set of ATM tools. But I don't think it's going to happen since ATM can be used in too many different ways (e.g., Classical IP, leased lines, MPLS). If we have to choose one, it will be HARP but we do not need to. It seems that the two drivers have different segments of the ATM users. Network research people tend to choose Cranor's driver to play with since it's simpler and they don't need Classical IP or SVCs. So, I personally want to keep Cranor's driver as long as there are interests. On the other hand, I think "netnatm" directory could be removed. It's a quick hack, it's kind of messy to have both "netnatm" and "netatm" directories under "sys", and I don't know many people using it. At least, the following items are supported in Cranor's driver but missing in HARP: - Adaptec card support although Adaptec has dropped ATM NICs from their product line, Adaptec cards perform much better than ENI cards. - BPF support - shaper support crucial to a wide area ATM services quite convenient as a variable rate link for testing - multicast support if the interface is configured as a point-to-point interface - IPv6 support we all know it's comming And, at least, the following groups, each has a considerable amount of users, are using Cranor's driver: - ALTQ - KAME/INRIA IPv6 - CAIRN - netbsd/openbsd - WIDE --Kenjiro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Tue Dec 29 05:26:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29754 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 05:26:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29740 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 05:25:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA78562; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:24:25 +0100 (CET) To: Kenjiro Cho cc: atm@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:26:07 +0900." <199812290426.NAA15387@hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:24:24 +0100 Message-ID: <78560.914937864@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the (quick!) feedback. Now for a second round. Currently the only piece of hardware supported by Cranors code but not by the HARP code is the Adaptec if I have understood this right. Clearly if people (other than me :-) use the adaptec card that would make Adaptec support in HARP a prerequisite for removing Carnors stuff. The reson for me asking about removing Cranors stuff, is that I don't think we are serviced well with two competing implementations in the tree, and of the two HARP is much more complete and usable, and most importantly: it is actively maintained. I am aware that many reseach projects run on Cranors stuff, but if they are not even considering upgrading from FreeBSD 2.1 for instance, they do not really factor into the equation of FreeBSD 3.1 and further down the road, do they ? :-) I think therefore, that unless circumstances change in the meantime, that you should expect the Cranor driver to disapper from FreeBSD-current sometime after Q299, and prepare to either maintain it yourself (some of you already do) or switch to HARP. If there are features of Cranors drivers which should be integrated into HARP before then, or other issues which should prevent such a move, by all means lets hear about it, It is my perception that the maintainers of HARP are very eager to work with their users. I also hear ALTQ being a pretty big item (not surprisingly) for the atm community, and I wonder if it is time to raise the issue of importing ALTQ into FreeBSD in general. Having not worked (or even looked into ALTQ) (I'm only one human), I would like to get a feeling from people who have worked with it ("worked with" includes "have written it" :-) what such an integration would take, what benefits we can cite as reason and who could help carry it out in FreeBSD-current. One of the things we might want to explore is if the "net-pipes" developed by Whistle (by julian, archie &al) would fit into or even improve this particular picture. If any of you would have time to explore that a bit I would be most grateful. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Tue Dec 29 07:39:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10961 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:39:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (widefw.csl.sony.co.jp [133.138.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10953 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:39:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kjc@csl.sony.co.jp) Received: from hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (root@hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp [43.27.98.57]) by widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.8/3.6W) with ESMTP id AAA17641; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:39:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (kjc@[127.0.0.1]) by hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.8/3.6W/hotaka/98122515) with ESMTP id AAA13414; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:39:13 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199812291539.AAA13414@hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp> To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: atm@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:24:24 +0100." <78560.914937864@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:39:12 +0900 From: Kenjiro Cho Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Poul-Henning Kamp said: >> Now for a second round. >> Currently the only piece of hardware supported by Cranors code but >> not by the HARP code is the Adaptec if I have understood this right. Yes, but the issue is not only the supported hardware. >> The reson for me asking about removing Cranors stuff, is that I don't >> think we are serviced well with two competing implementations in the >> tree, and of the two HARP is much more complete and usable, and most >> importantly: it is actively maintained. What makes you think Cranor's driver is poorly maintained? As a maintainer of the driver, I never heard of complaints. Many minor problems have been fixed by Chuck and me before other people even notice. >> I am aware that many reseach projects run on Cranors stuff, but if >> they are not even considering upgrading from FreeBSD 2.1 for >> instance, they do not really factor into the equation of FreeBSD >> 3.1 and further down the road, do they ? :-) They do. FreeBSD has been the best platform in network research and we should be proud of the stability of FreeBSD 2.1 :-) Let me put this way. Cranor's driver vs HARP is somewhat similar to slip vs ppp. Even when ppp seems to become a super set of what slip provides for normal use, we still want to keep slip. It is difficult to touch the hairy ppp code or to evaluate a single component of ppp. New ideas will be first implemented into simpler slip, and then, if proved useful, it will be brought into production ppp. Cranor's driver has been playing this role and it will continue to do so for at least another couple of years. For instance, IPv6 people needed the point-to-point interface model for ATM because multicast is essential to IPv6 but multicast in the Classical IP over ATM model is unnecessarily complex for them. >> I think therefore, that unless circumstances change in the meantime, >> that you should expect the Cranor driver to disapper from >> FreeBSD-current sometime after Q299, and prepare to either maintain >> it yourself (some of you already do) or switch to HARP. I still don't see why you are so eager to remove Cranor's driver at this stage. Can we just wait and see how people use ATM? As for ALTQ, I'm not eligible to evaluate it :-) but the issue will be raised along with the IPv6 integration. Both INRIA and KAME already merged ALTQ in their release. --Kenjiro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Tue Dec 29 08:27:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15543 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:27:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from emperor.arl.wustl.edu (arl.wustl.edu [128.252.153.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15535 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdd@arl.wustl.edu) Received: from arl.wustl.edu (oola.arl.wustl.edu [128.252.153.23]) by emperor.arl.wustl.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22590; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:27:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <368902CB.E83247ED@arl.wustl.edu> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:26:51 -0600 From: "John D. DeHart" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG CC: Zubin Dittia , Chuck Cranor Subject: Re: Forwarded mail... References: <199812290222.UAA14190@ccrc.wustl.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We are using Chuck Cranor's driver on FreeBSD and need the Native ATM features of it. I've forgotten exactly what HARP supports but am very interested in finding out if it supports AAL0. We need to be able to send out individual ATM cells to control some other ATM devices that we develop. John John DeHart jdd@arl.wustl.edu Senior Research Associate http://www.arl.wustl.edu/~jdd/ Applied Research Laboratory Campus Box 1045, Washington University One Brookings Drive TEL: (314) 935-7329 St. Louis Mo. 63130-4899 FAX: (314) 935-7302 Zubin Dittia wrote: > ------------ USENET News Service writes: > >From usenet Mon Dec 28 18:51 CST 1998 > Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:51:00 -0600 (CST) > From: USENET News Service > Message-Id: <199812290051.SAA12718@ccrc.wustl.edu> > To: weathert@arl.wustl.edu, zubin@dworkin.wustl.edu > Content-Type: text > Content-Length: 1800 > > Path: ccrc!e2e > From: Scott Michel > Newsgroups: ccrc.mlists.end2end > Subject: FreeBSD ATM support > Date: 29 Dec 1998 00:51:00 -0000 > Organization: Washington University, St Louis MO. USA > Lines: 45 > Sender: daemon@ccrc.wustl.edu > Approved: usenet@ccrc.wustl.edu > Distribution: ccrc > Message-ID: <76991k$cdb@cashew.wustl.edu> > Reply-To: freebsd-atm@freebsd.org > NNTP-Posting-Host: cashew.wustl.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Precedence: bulk > Content-Length: 1287 > > I realize this is slightly off-topic, but I know there are some of you > all out there who probably rely on FreeBSD ATM in some form or another, > but may not be on the freebsd-atm list. > > The proposal is to ditch Chuck Cranor's driver and to integrate keep > the HARP suite. > > "Reply-to" is set to go to the freebsd-atm list. > > -scooter > > ------- Forwarded Message > To: atm@freebsd.org > Subject: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! > From: Poul-Henning Kamp > Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:54:50 +0100 > Message-ID: <74434.914871290@critter.freebsd.dk> > Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@freebsd.org > X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ok gang, > > I would like to know if we have any users of ATM in FreeBSD and which > of the two implementations you use ("Cranor" or "HARP"). > > I am seriously considering retiring the Chuck Cranors ATM stuff leaving > HARP in the tree to handle it all. Only casualty I know of would be > support for Adaptec cards. > > Comments ? > > - -- > Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member > phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." > "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message > > ------- End of Forwarded Message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Tue Dec 29 10:03:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24696 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov (mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.166.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24690 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:03:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uhl@mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov) Received: (from uhl@localhost) by mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.4) id MAA04717; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:49:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:49:54 -0500 (EST) From: George Uhl Message-Id: <199812291749.MAA04717@mamba-e.gsfc.nasa.gov> To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk, kjc@csl.sony.co.jp Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! Cc: atm@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: JJl32Bb6A6+uZHtH6W3EPw== Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> The reson for me asking about removing Cranors stuff, is that I don't > >> think we are serviced well with two competing implementations in the > >> tree, and of the two HARP is much more complete and usable, and most > >> importantly: it is actively maintained. > > What makes you think Cranor's driver is poorly maintained? > As a maintainer of the driver, I never heard of complaints. > Many minor problems have been fixed by Chuck and me before other > people even notice. > I've NEVER had a problem using Cranor's driver. It is well maintained. As far as its usability, the HARP driver has no IP QoS support that I know of. Thus making it unsable for my work. > >> I am aware that many reseach projects run on Cranors stuff, but if > >> they are not even considering upgrading from FreeBSD 2.1 for > >> instance, they do not really factor into the equation of FreeBSD > >> 3.1 and further down the road, do they ? :-) > > They do. FreeBSD has been the best platform in network research and > we should be proud of the stability of FreeBSD 2.1 :-) > I'm using the ALTQ modified Cranor driver on 2.2.7 platforms. As soon as it is ported to 2.8 and 3.x, I will upgrade as well. > As for ALTQ, I'm not eligible to evaluate it :-) but the issue will be > raised along with the IPv6 integration. Both INRIA and KAME already > merged ALTQ in their release. > I've been using ALTQ since May on prototype IP-layer QoS host and router platforms to evaluate network QoS services (basic traffic control, intserv/RSVP and diffserv) for NASA'a Earth Observing System. When EOS is fully operational in 5 years it will be pumping data at an average of ~200Mbs. The ALTQ prototype is reliable and robust at handling traffic at OC-3 line speed. It has advanced QoS capabilities that are beyond the commercial implementations. If ALTQ will be incorporated into the FreeBSD tree then by default the Cranor driver will also need to be supported. I agree with Suresh Bhogavilli that there are features in the CAIRN version and ALTQ version of the Cranor driver that if merged would make an even better ATM driver. > --Kenjiro > George Uhl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-atm Wed Dec 30 12:12:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26630 for freebsd-atm-outgoing; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:12:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from plains.NoDak.edu (plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26600; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.NoDak.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29612; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:11:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:11:33 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199812302011.OAA29612@plains.NoDak.edu> To: atm@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATM in FreeBSD, status requested! Sender: owner-freebsd-atm@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been reading the FreeBSD ATM driver replies with interest. I exclusively use HARP, but I would like to see: native ATM QOS BPF on the IP stack (standard for) BPF on the ATM level (my NICStAR driver has this) PPP over ATM for xDSL people IPv6 will soon be here, network researchers should be working on it now --mark. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-atm" in the body of the message