From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 22 16:54:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14829 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:54:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14809 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:53:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA09056; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:52:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802230052.QAA09056@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New SoftUpdates test kit In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:42:47 MST." <199802230045.RAA21506@pluto.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:52:44 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >This means creating a new structure holding a buf reference and an > >single integer counter, and then managing memory allocation for this > >new structure type, and passing it around instead of the buf. > > > >You're right, it almost certainly is the "correct" solution, but not > >necessarily the simplest. *sigh* > > Actually, the "correct" solution would be to add ATAPI support to CAM, > but that certainly is not the simplest solution. 8-) No. Every time I read about the proposed legislation against human cloning here (USA) I keep hoping that the technology gets there before the legislation does. Because if it does, you and Ken had better go into hiding, or I'll be faxing your other half to roll us a couple dozen clones. 8) Seriously, I expect that Pluto don't consider ATAPI to be worth pursuing to any real degree? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 22 17:08:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16857 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:08:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16847 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:08:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA22338; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:08:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802230108.SAA22338@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Mike Smith cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New SoftUpdates test kit In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:52:44 PST." <199802230052.QAA09056@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:05:40 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Seriously, I expect that Pluto don't consider ATAPI to be worth >pursuing to any real degree? CAM as it stands now has most of the features Pluto needs. Ken is performing most of the active development as I've been called off to another (less interesting) project for a few months. Neither Ken nor myself have the technical background in ATAPI to just "start coding" the ATAPI module and at least all of my spare time (which I could use to investigate ATAPI) is used up currently working on the CAM controller drivers just to finish off SCSI support. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 22 17:14:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18040 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:14:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18024 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:14:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09114; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:12:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802230112.RAA09114@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New SoftUpdates test kit In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:05:40 MST." <199802230108.SAA22338@pluto.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:12:23 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Seriously, I expect that Pluto don't consider ATAPI to be worth > >pursuing to any real degree? > > CAM as it stands now has most of the features Pluto needs. That's more or less what I meant. If the CAM stuff is going to grow ATAPI support, it's going to be some bored hacker (hello Mr. John Hood 8) with some time up their sleeves. > ATAPI module and at least all of my spare time (which I could use to > investigate ATAPI) is used up currently working on the CAM controller > drivers just to finish off SCSI support. I'd be inclined to guess that you're probably better off there. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 22 19:53:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10353 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:53:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6532.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10336 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:53:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA00367; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:50:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:50:29 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Mike Smith cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ollivier Robert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/etc services In-Reply-To: <199802221908.LAA07867@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Cc: adjusted] On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > about 6 messages about 4 stupid lines in /etc/services. Am I the only > > one here who thinks that people have their priorities rather severely > > skewed? :-) > > Can you say "Boggle"? Does it Boggle[tm] your mind? :) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 22 20:32:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15462 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:32:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15426 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:32:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA09805; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:30:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802230430.UAA09805@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More breakage in -current as a result of header frobbing. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:28:36 +1030." <19980223142836.41784@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:30:56 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Mon, 23 February 1998 at 2:13:56 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> For most, I imagine listening to Terry go off on another CVS > >> global llama locking tangent is punishment enough!! > > > > > > Heh. "I are a component of yur quality control feedback loop". > > Would you be willing to bombard any future commit sinner with mail > messages describing the errors of their ways? :-) Terry Llamabert! (The Dilbert crossreference was *completely* unintentional, honest.) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 23 02:39:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22516 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 02:39:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22507 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 02:39:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id VAA08916; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:40:02 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199802231040.VAA08916@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: More breakage in -current as a result of header frobbing. In-Reply-To: <199802231012.DAA29929@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Feb 23, 98 10:12:03 am" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:40:02 +1100 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Actually, "leeches and anemia" are a bad example. It seems that > leeches work in this case ("New England Journal of Medicine", March 1989, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Oh, how I *hate* it when he does that ---+ You'd think he could at least quote the page too! > or thereabouts, I believe... though I could be mistaken, and it might ^^^^ 1 ^^^^ ^^ 2 ^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ 3 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ 4 ^ So that's one *exact* reference and four cop-outs. Blech. 8-) 8-) 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 23 07:28:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20313 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:28:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20224 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:27:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from giffuni.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.46]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA11048 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:30:43 +0500 Message-ID: <34F1940B.41C67EA6@asme.org> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:21:47 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The Boston Globe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Howdy, My local newspaper translated an article from The Boston Globe written by Hiawatha Bray, about Linux and the Netscape strategy. She (or he?) says that Linux would be an alternative if netscape distributed it, but notes that Linux is difficult to install. She also has that crazy idea that Linux has 5 million users ! Perhaps someone can show her the way to FreeBSD? :-) cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 23 08:02:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24374 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:02:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24357 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:02:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (graham.tis [192.168.0.81]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04653 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:00:57 GMT Message-ID: <34F19D3C.7B575320@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:01:00 +0000 From: stuart henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Boston Globe References: <34F1940B.41C67EA6@asme.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > My local newspaper translated an article from The Boston Globe > written by Hiawatha Bray, about Linux and the Netscape strategy. She > (or he?) says that Linux would be an alternative if netscape > distributed it, but notes that Linux is difficult to install. She > also has that crazy idea that Linux has 5 million users ! Which reminds me (Computer Shopper suggested that Netscape should buy Caldera buried away in some editorial :-) here are a few points of the FreeBSD review in the same issue, I chose to pick out the more negative points in the feeling that they're the ones that need most work on, they mainly concentrated on installation and not any of the things that matter whilst it's working, save a few comments near the end like "In use, FreeBSD seems as stable as a commercial version of Unix". etc. (sysinstall) "I have to admit that this isn't 100 percent solid software; for example, if you make a mistake, backtracking can be difficult, if not impossible"......."Compared to a linux installation, this stage is better and seems to have fewer glitches and peculiarities" :-) (also comments about the most likely errors during installation being to do with lack of disk space). "Don't be shy about admitting to be a novice, because this really should be labelled 'quick, easy, painless Unix installation even for an expert'". (well, that won't fit on the screen, but for anyone that hasn't had the misfortune to have had to use Windows recently, it is very rare to use the Novice bit of any setup program because at least that way, you usually get to find out how many 100s of mb it will eat or what it will scribble over :-) "It could do with a good printed manual" (or rather, it could do with a good easily locatable UK source of them that doesn't involve airmail :-) (about X) "In one case I discovered that the set-up routine wouldn't run - it appeared to completely lock the system. Later I realised that it was just that the monitor couldn't cope with the refresh rate."....."I never did make the set-up program work except by swapping the monitor for another one"). "Not many users are going to be happy working with the TWM environment" and "To swap windows managers is a matter of editing a line in the configuration file, and there doesn't seem to be an easy way of doing this". "In use, FreeBSD seems as stable as a commercial version of Unix. Subjectively, it seems more stable and has fewer rough edges than Linux. If you can do without the back-up of a help line and technical support, I see very little reason for not using it seriously, and even" (for, I presume!) "mission-critical, tasks. It makes a very capable internet server." "It is Linux and SCO-compatible, and I certainly prefer it to Linux, which is around the same sort of cost...It could do with a good printed manual giving guidance on the bundled software and some simplification of the post installation configuration" (I think Xfree is a large part of this ;-) "but apart from this, you can't really complain at so much really high-quality software for so little cash." The accompanying screenshots were a couple of /stand/sysinstall disklabel etc. and one of X with a Mosaic hidden under a couple of xterms. They obviously didn't see the screenshots they could have borrowed from www.cdrom.com (mind you they aren't that easy to find :-) Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 23 10:36:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14774 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:36:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14713 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id TAA08483; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:15:11 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA17323; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:39:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980223183926.53473@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:39:26 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Harry Roscoe Subject: Re: I am a recruiter...personal message...need your help! References: <3.0.32.19980223092714.006a7d60@wilmington.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980223092714.006a7d60@wilmington.net>; from Harry Roscoe on Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 10:37:38AM -0800 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 10:37:38AM -0800, Harry Roscoe wrote: > Hi Andreas Hi Harry ! > My name is Harry Roscoe and I am a technical recruiter. Prior to this, > I was employed at Bay Networks and Wellfleet as manager of sales and > system engineering. I happened to see your posting on one of the > Comp.dcom.sys newsgroups and was impressed enough with your grasp of > datacom enough to motivate me to contact you regarding my problem. > > We are currently doing a search for pre and post sales Network > Consultants and System Engineers for some of our clients in the U.S. > We are also looking for good network technicians, NT specialists, and > Unix. These are top 10 networking vendors and have positions in all of > the major US cities. Their compensation plans are very generous > topping out at over 100k for the right person. You can get more > details on the cities and compensation by clicking on our website > listed below. > > These positions need to be filled quickly. I need to know if you are > aware of any persons who meet the skill sets that we need that live in > the U.S. If you can refer someone, and we place them, we will gladly > send you a check for $1000. All information is held in the strictest > confidence. > > I look forward to your earliest reply. Let's see, I'll ask some people ;-) -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 23 11:01:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16882 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:01:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16874 for freebsd-chat; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:01:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199802231901.LAA16874@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: my how big you've grown! To: freebsd-chat Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:01:34 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org the 6th edition of unix had less than 10,000 lines of source. FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE has 537,662 lines of source after substracting 35 lines to allow for the copyright information in each of the 1,433 files. these are rough numbers folks....i am counting embedded comments and ifdef'ed sections and blank lines in *both* our numbers and in the 6th edition numbers. 540x the code.......that's a lot to hold in your head. netinet alone is ~20,000, vm ~16,000, and ufs/ufs ~6,500. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 23 13:13:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13924 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:13:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13891; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:12:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rssh@cam.grad.kiev.ua) Received: from localhost (rssh@localhost) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02370; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:38:37 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:38:36 +0200 (EET) From: Ruslan Shevchenko To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: my how big you've grown! In-Reply-To: <199802231901.LAA16874@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > the 6th edition of unix had less than 10,000 lines of source. > FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE has 537,662 lines of source > after substracting 35 lines to allow for the copyright > information in each of the 1,433 files. > > these are rough numbers folks....i am counting embedded comments > and ifdef'ed sections and blank lines in *both* our numbers and > in the 6th edition numbers. > > 540x the code.......that's a lot to hold in your head. > > netinet alone is ~20,000, vm ~16,000, and ufs/ufs ~6,500. > Anybody know, how large is NT sources ? (separate C++ and Visual Basic) > > jmb > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 23 15:43:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15570 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:43:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15328; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:43:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08780; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:12:58 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA13128; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:12:58 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980224101258.21022@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:12:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Ruslan Shevchenko , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: my how big you've grown! References: <199802231901.LAA16874@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Ruslan Shevchenko on Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 12:38:36AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 23 February 1998 at 0:38:36 +0200, Ruslan Shevchenko wrote: > On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >> >> the 6th edition of unix had less than 10,000 lines of source. >> FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE has 537,662 lines of source >> after substracting 35 lines to allow for the copyright >> information in each of the 1,433 files. >> >> these are rough numbers folks....i am counting embedded comments >> and ifdef'ed sections and blank lines in *both* our numbers and >> in the 6th edition numbers. >> >> 540x the code.......that's a lot to hold in your head. >> >> netinet alone is ~20,000, vm ~16,000, and ufs/ufs ~6,500. >> > > Anybody know, how large is NT sources ? > (separate C++ and Visual Basic) No idea. Does NT count source in lines or windows? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 00:55:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00159 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:55:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA00142 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:55:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@symbionics.co.uk) Received: from symnt3.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01694; Tue, 24 Feb 98 08:55:25 GMT Received: by symnt3.symbionics.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD4101.EA8B91B0@symnt3.symbionics.co.uk>; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:55:12 -0000 Message-Id: From: Duncan Barclay To: "'freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org'" Cc: "'Jonathan M. Bresler'" Subject: RE: my how big you've grown! Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:55:10 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Jonathan M. Bresler [SMTP:jmb@FreeBSD.ORG] >Sent: Monday, February 23, 1998 7:02 PM >To: freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org >Subject: my how big you've grown! > > > the 6th edition of unix had less than 10,000 lines of source. > FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE has 537,662 lines of source > after substracting 35 lines to allow for the copyright > information in each of the 1,433 files. > > these are rough numbers folks....i am counting embedded comments > and ifdef'ed sections and blank lines in *both* our numbers and > in the 6th edition numbers. > > 540x the code.......that's a lot to hold in your head. > > netinet alone is ~20,000, vm ~16,000, and ufs/ufs ~6,500. > > >jmb > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 01:00:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01164 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:00:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA01157 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:00:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@symbionics.co.uk) Received: from symnt3.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01751; Tue, 24 Feb 98 09:00:34 GMT Received: by symnt3.symbionics.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD4102.A2F001A0@symnt3.symbionics.co.uk>; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:00:21 -0000 Message-Id: From: Duncan Barclay To: "'freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org'" Cc: "'Jonathan M. Bresler'" Subject: RE: my how big you've grown! Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:00:19 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Please forgive the bad formatting; Outlook at work. >-----Original Message----- >From: Jonathan M. Bresler [SMTP:jmb@FreeBSD.ORG] >Sent: Monday, February 23, 1998 7:02 PM >To: freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org >Subject: my how big you've grown! > > > the 6th edition of unix had less than 10,000 lines of source. > FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE has 537,662 lines of source > after substracting 35 lines to allow for the copyright > information in each of the 1,433 files. > >Something that also v. scary is the ammount of code in a GSM phone. >IIRC correctly about a year ago we had >250k lines for a GSM handset >I was working on. Only one filesystem (the smart card), one network stack, >a single display device and 20 buttons. Ahhhhhhhh...... > >We were trying to squeeze the code into a 1MB flash part. At the time >I did a wc of a 2.1.x tree which was about 350k lines. > > these are rough numbers folks....i am counting embedded comments > and ifdef'ed sections and blank lines in *both* our numbers and > in the 6th edition numbers. > > 540x the code.......that's a lot to hold in your head. > > netinet alone is ~20,000, vm ~16,000, and ufs/ufs ~6,500. > > >jmb > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 01:04:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01473 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:04:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA01468 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:04:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@symbionics.co.uk) Received: from symnt3.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01810; Tue, 24 Feb 98 09:04:20 GMT Received: by symnt3.symbionics.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD4103.29DE1710@symnt3.symbionics.co.uk>; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:04:07 -0000 Message-Id: From: Duncan Barclay To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Sorry Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:04:06 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry about the empty reply. for (i=0; i<=1000; i++) fprintf (forehead, "I must remember not to use Micro$oft products: they don't work."); Duncan -- Dr. Duncan Barclay dmlb@symbionics.co.uk Symbionics Ltd, St. John's Innovation Park, Cowley Road, Cambridge CB4 4WS, UK Tel: +44 1223 421025 Fax: +44 1223 421031 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 02:04:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08862 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:04:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA08848 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:04:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (graham.tis [192.168.0.81]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07012 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:53:39 GMT Message-ID: <34F298A4.505AE755@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:53:40 +0000 From: stuart henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: my how big you've grown! References: <199802231901.LAA16874@hub.freebsd.org> <19980224101258.21022@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No idea. Does NT count source in lines or windows? miles, probably... :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 03:30:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA20375 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 03:30:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from piranha.eds.ch (piranha.eds.ch [194.235.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA20369 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 03:30:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto.nunnari@agie.ch) Received: by piranha.eds.ch (940816.SGI.8.6.9/951211.SGI.AUTO) for id MAA22614; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:26:01 +0100 Received: from agie.eds.ch(198.132.159.194) by piranha via smap (3.1) id xma022605; Tue, 24 Feb 98 12:25:50 +0100 Received: by agie.eds.ch (950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI.AUTO) for id MAA14837; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:32:38 -0800 Received: from unknown(172.16.6.12) by agie via smap (3.1) id xma014834; Tue, 24 Feb 98 12:32:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34F2AEAD.19C0@agie.ch> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:27:41 +0100 From: Roberto Nunnari Reply-To: roberto.nunnari@agie.ch Organization: AGIE - 6616 Losone - Switzerland X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (OS/2; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat Subject: FreeBSD vs. Linux ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, I run Linux on my PC since 1995 (if remember well...) and now I'm planning to update my hardware. That's why I'm trying to work out what free unix I should install on the new system.... Could anybody point out what are the pros and cons of: FreeBSD and Linux derivates, please? Also, any link to URLs about performance comparations of these UNIXes will be appreciated greatly. -- """ (o o) =======================oOO==(_)==OOo======================== Roberto Nunnari -software engineer- AGIE-CHARMILLES - 6616 Losone - Switzerland phone: +41 / 91 / 806 91 38 E-Mail: roberto.nunnari@agie.ch WWW : http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/3935/ ============================================================ MY OPINIONS ARE NOT NECESSARELY THOSE OF AGIE-CHARMILLES ============================================================ (Hammer nail here --> <-- for a new monitor.) ============================================================ ************ luck is... miss the wrong train ! ************* ============================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 05:14:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03378 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:14:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA03373 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:14:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27418; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:14:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from henrich) Message-ID: <19980224081424.21663@crh.cl.msu.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:14:24 -0500 From: Charles Henrich To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Wow! FreeBSD in DV Magazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD in the news! In Digital Video magazine: So on one hand we, we have pricey, rock-solid workstations running dyed-in-the-web UNIX operating systems. On the other, we have less epensive Pentium and PowerPC-based machines with pretty good software and Web integration. Isn't there some way to have the best of both worlds? As a matter of fact, there is. The key is bringing together PC hardware, the FreeBSD UNIX OS (shareware) and the venerable Apache HTTP Web server (basically freeware). This combination takes Microsoft completely out of the picture, and can also inclue a Power Mac as the hardware component (using the appropriate OS, such as OpenStep or Rhapsody). and it continues... Even a spiffy screenshot of the FreeBSD home page :) -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 06:13:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10691 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:13:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from diabolik.logic.it (diabolik.logic.it [195.120.151.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA10671 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:13:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: (qmail 392 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1998 14:13:37 -0000 Received: from mc52.logic.it (HELO dumbwinter.logic.it) (195.120.151.152) by diabolik.logic.it with SMTP; 24 Feb 1998 14:13:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 591 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Feb 1998 14:13:03 -0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:13:03 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni Reply-To: Marco Molteni To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Help for a talk on FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Note that the crosspost to -questions is to get a wider audience. Please reply only to -chat] Hehe, these are going to be great days for FreeBSD at my University (University of Milan, Computer Science Department, Italy)! This morning I saw an ad regarding a talk on Linux organized by a group of students, leaded by a professor (Daniele Bruschi, bruschi@dsi.unimi.it). So I went to Mr Bruschi and said: "Hello, I'm using FreeBSD. Are you interested in evaluating it?". He replied: "Yes, are you willing to give a talk on FreeBSD, and maybe to organize a performance test vs Linux?" Gee, I have the opportunity to semi-ufficially present FreeBSD at my University, so I'm asking everybody's suggestions on the topics to show in a two hours introductory talk. Also, specific to Jordan: is it possible to have (free of charge) some CDs and some newsletters and some books to promote FreeBSD at my University? If you need a ufficial University request for the materials I can let you have one. Thanks everybody Marco --- Il mondo e' bello perche' e' Bacio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 06:14:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10837 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:14:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from diabolik.logic.it (diabolik.logic.it [195.120.151.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA10663 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: (qmail 393 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1998 14:13:37 -0000 Received: from mc52.logic.it (HELO dumbwinter.logic.it) (195.120.151.152) by diabolik.logic.it with SMTP; 24 Feb 1998 14:13:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 544 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Feb 1998 13:39:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:39:29 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: Roberto Nunnari cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux ? In-Reply-To: <34F2AEAD.19C0@agie.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Roberto Nunnari wrote: > Could anybody point out what are the pros and cons of: > FreeBSD and Linux derivates, please? Also, any link to URLs > about performance comparations of these UNIXes will be > appreciated greatly. > > E-Mail: roberto.nunnari@agie.ch ^^^^^^^ Hi Roberto, I wasn't going to reply, since such subject (Linux vs FreeBSD) often degrades in flame wars, and I think it's pretty silly to argue between Linux and FreeBSD when they are cousins, and the real evil is M$ ;-) Then I saw your email address and asked myself: is agie.ch the Agie which makes NC machines (sorry I can't find "elettroerosione" in my dictionary ;-) I have a (old) Charmilles wich still uses the DEC TU58 tape! Regarding your question, my first answer is to use the search engine at www.freebsd.org, since this topic has been asked many times on -chat and on -questions. My personal experience: I started with Linux, then tried FreeBSD and was impressed with: 1. stability (really rock solid) 2. "rational" approach to sw development: with FreeBSD you get ONE distribution, you don't have to choose between Slackware vs RedHat vs Debian vs .... My suggestion: give FreeBSD a try, and judge yourself ;-) Marco --- Il mondo e' bello perche' e' Bacio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 07:04:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16324 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:04:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16314 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00787; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:03:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:02:50 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: Roberto Nunnari cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux ? In-Reply-To: <34F2AEAD.19C0@agie.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Roberto Nunnari wrote: > Hi all, > > I run Linux on my PC since 1995 (if remember well...) and > now I'm planning to update my hardware. That's why I'm > trying to work out what free unix I should install on the > new system.... > > Could anybody point out what are the pros and cons of: > FreeBSD and Linux derivates, please? Also, any link to URLs > about performance comparations of these UNIXes will be > appreciated greatly. > -- Try the following: http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/~laik/benchmarks/index.html This came from www.unix-wizards.com/free.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 07:18:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17800 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA17790 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:18:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07310; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:18:38 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA15616; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:18:38 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980224161837.54158@follo.net> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:18:37 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Paul Griffith , Roberto Nunnari Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux ? References: <34F2AEAD.19C0@agie.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Paul Griffith on Tue, Feb 24, 1998 at 10:02:50AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 24, 1998 at 10:02:50AM -0500, Paul Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Roberto Nunnari wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I run Linux on my PC since 1995 (if remember well...) and > > now I'm planning to update my hardware. That's why I'm > > trying to work out what free unix I should install on the > > new system.... > > > > Could anybody point out what are the pros and cons of: > > FreeBSD and Linux derivates, please? Also, any link to URLs > > about performance comparations of these UNIXes will be > > appreciated greatly. > > -- > > Try the following: > > http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/~laik/benchmarks/index.html Be aware that the performance data for filesystem metadata (local filesystem performance) there is based on Linux running async, and FreeBSD running sync. FreeBSD default to sync for safety reasons, while Linux default to async (which is faster but not recoverable in the case of a crash). FreeBSD is presently in the process of integrating Kirk McKusick's Soft Updates code, which will give the same (actually, sometimes better) performance without removing safe recovery. Also, Linux tend to default to other blocksizes than FreeBSD, which can sometimes give better performance (at the cost of some space). For a true comparison, the filesystems should be equally tuned. Another point: Both FreeBSD's and Linux' networking performance has been improved since those tests were run. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 07:31:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19352 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:31:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA19334 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:31:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 26277 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Feb 1998 15:39:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19980224163928.44788@paert.tse-online.de> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:39:28 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: searching for a real cvsupd - primer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I want to make use of a local cvsup-server, that should feed our various (-current and -stable) machines. What should I say, it doesn't work out of the box for me. Since I don't know if it should, I'm begging for a little help or a pointer to documentation. I was running the client side of cvsup for quite some time now, without any problems (checkout-mode). First I switched one of the cvsup-client-machines to fetching the whole cvs-repository. (no problem) Then I installed the cvsupd-binary-package with the 'out-of-the-box'- configuration. Whenever I point a cvsup-client to this cvsupd, the cvsupd just yells about 'unknown collections'. (e.g. as follows) > Looking up address of distler.tse-online.de > Connecting to distler.tse-online.de > Connected to distler.tse-online.de > Server software version: REL_15_2 > Negotiating file attribute support > Exchanging collection information > Server message: Unknown collection "src-all" > Server message: Unknown collection "doc-all" > Server message: Unknown collection "cvs-crypto" > Establishing active-mode data connection > Running > Skipping collection src-all/cvs > Skipping collection doc-all/cvs > Skipping collection cvs-crypto/cvs > Shutting down connection to server > Finished successfully The documentation (FreeBSD Handbook and man-pages) for the client-side is sufficient, but certainly I'm not able to get a grip on the cvsupd-configuration. Thanks in advance, Andreas -- /// We do it with FreeBSD/SMP /// ------------------------------------------------------------------- /// PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key /// Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 08:46:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28448 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:46:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from piranha.eds.ch (piranha.eds.ch [194.235.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA28442 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:46:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto.nunnari@agie.ch) Received: by piranha.eds.ch (940816.SGI.8.6.9/951211.SGI.AUTO) for id RAA02165; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:41:53 +0100 Received: from agie.eds.ch(198.132.159.194) by piranha via smap (3.1) id xma002158; Tue, 24 Feb 98 17:41:23 +0100 Received: by agie.eds.ch (950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI.AUTO) for id RAA16950; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:48:13 -0800 Received: from unknown(172.16.6.12) by agie via smap (3.1) id xma016948; Tue, 24 Feb 98 17:48:05 -0800 Message-ID: <34F2F8A1.6843@agie.ch> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:43:13 +0100 From: Roberto Nunnari Reply-To: roberto.nunnari@agie.ch Organization: AGIE - 6616 Losone - Switzerland X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (OS/2; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux ? References: <34F2AEAD.19C0@agie.ch> <19980224161837.54158@follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks a lot to all who answered my question. I'll give FreeBSD a try. Best regards. -- """ (o o) =======================oOO==(_)==OOo======================== Roberto Nunnari -software engineer- AGIE-CHARMILLES - 6616 Losone - Switzerland phone: +41 / 91 / 806 91 38 E-Mail: roberto.nunnari@agie.ch WWW : http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/3935/ ============================================================ MY OPINIONS ARE NOT NECESSARELY THOSE OF AGIE-CHARMILLES ============================================================ (Hammer nail here --> <-- for a new monitor.) ============================================================ ************ luck is... miss the wrong train ! ************* ============================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 10:16:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11405 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11386; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:16:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA08839; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:16:20 -0800 (PST) To: Marco Molteni cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help for a talk on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:13:03 +0100." Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:16:20 -0800 Message-ID: <8835.888344180@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Also, specific to Jordan: is it possible to have (free of charge) > some CDs and some newsletters and some books to promote FreeBSD at my > University? If you need a ufficial University request for the materials I > can let you have one. Yes, that would be fine - please let me know how much you want of everything and I'll let you know how much of it I can actually let you have. Also don't forget that if we get too crazy with the order, everything will simply get stuck in Italian customs and never actually get to you, so let's keep it reasonable. ;-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 15:19:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02998 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10246; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:49:00 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA18997; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:48:59 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980225094859.36892@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:48:59 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Charles Henrich , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wow! FreeBSD in DV Magazine References: <19980224081424.21663@crh.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980224081424.21663@crh.cl.msu.edu>; from Charles Henrich on Tue, Feb 24, 1998 at 08:14:24AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 24 February 1998 at 8:14:24 -0500, Charles Henrich wrote: > FreeBSD in the news! In Digital Video magazine: > > So on one hand we, we have pricey, rock-solid workstations running > dyed-in-the-web UNIX operating systems. On the other, we have less > epensive Pentium and PowerPC-based machines with pretty good > software and Web integration. Isn't there some way to have the best > of both worlds? As a matter of fact, there is. The key is bringing > together PC hardware, the FreeBSD UNIX OS (shareware) Obviously a well-researched article. > and the venerable Apache HTTP Web server (basically freeware). This > combination takes Microsoft completely out of the picture, and can > also inclue a Power Mac as the hardware component (using the > appropriate OS, such as OpenStep or Rhapsody). Somebody should explain it to them. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 18:03:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03381 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:03:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03348 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:03:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-55.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.55]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA23318; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 02:03:14 GMT Message-ID: <34F37BC0.9D93DE1A@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:02:40 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Henrich CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wow! FreeBSD in DV Magazine References: <19980224081424.21663@crh.cl.msu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FreeBSD UNIX OS (shareware) and the venerable Apache HTTP Web server ^^^^^ where do they get this idea? We should correct their erroneous opinion! > (basically freeware). This combination takes Microsoft completely out of the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ yay! > picture, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 18:17:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06388 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:17:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (fern3.verinet.com [199.45.181.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06374 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:17:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21209; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:19:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:19:08 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199802250219.TAA21209@const.> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, stuart@internationalschool.co.uk Subject: Re: my how big you've grown! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > No idea. Does NT count source in lines or windows? > > miles, probably... :-) > Both wrong. They count bugs and infer lines at 2:1. Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 18:33:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08573 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:33:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (fern3.verinet.com [199.45.181.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07862 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21250; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:30:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:30:01 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199802250230.TAA21250@const.> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu Subject: Re: Wow! FreeBSD in DV Magazine Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FreeBSD UNIX OS (shareware) *Blink* What? When does my demo license expire? :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 20:16:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24044 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:16:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24027 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:16:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05006 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:16:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:15:54 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: help /dev/sd01s1b gone after MAKEDEV all Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay I did something very foolish, I typed MAKEDEV all from the /dev directory, now everytime I reboot I get the following error messages: /dev/sd0s1b No file or directory /dev/sd1s1b No file or directory those two are my swap partitions /dev/sd1s1e -No file or directory can't stat /dev/sd1s1e Non this is my 2GB /usr drive /dev/od0s1e - No file or directory That's my optical backup BTW: I am running 2.2.2, Any clues or ideas I will the fixit option from the CD-ROM Thanks Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com P.S: Feel free to post all night long, I might be up that long. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 21:10:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02246 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:10:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02236 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:10:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (ts2-cltnc-79.cetlink.net [209.54.58.79]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA29944; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:10:47 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Andreas Braukmann Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: searching for a real cvsupd - primer Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:11:12 GMT Message-ID: <34f3b481.5536440@mail.cetlink.net> References: <19980224163928.44788@paert.tse-online.de> In-Reply-To: <19980224163928.44788@paert.tse-online.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA02237 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:39:28 +0100, Andreas Braukmann wrote: >I want to make use of a local cvsup-server, that should feed our >various (-current and -stable) machines. >The documentation (FreeBSD Handbook and man-pages) for the client-side is >sufficient, but certainly I'm not able to get a grip on the >cvsupd-configuration. Install the cvsup-mirror port and you will see "the light." -- The day of the proprietary OS is over. Long live freed software. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 21:15:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03022 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:15:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from murkwood.gaffaneys.com (dialup13.gaffaneys.com [208.155.161.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03010 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:15:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zach@gaffaneys.com) Received: (from zach@localhost) by murkwood.gaffaneys.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA01517; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:15:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980224231507.53457@gaffaneys.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:15:07 -0600 From: Zach Heilig To: Paul Griffith , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help /dev/sd01s1b gone after MAKEDEV all References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Paul Griffith on Tue, Feb 24, 1998 at 11:15:54PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This probably should have gone to -questions, but...: On Tue, Feb 24, 1998 at 11:15:54PM -0500, Paul Griffith wrote: > Okay I did something very foolish, I typed MAKEDEV all from the /dev > directory, now everytime I reboot I get the following error messages: > BTW: I am running 2.2.2, Any clues or ideas I will the fixit option from > the CD-ROM Boot to single user mode (you probably end up there anyway right now). Then, do this: # mount / # cd /dev # sh MAKEDEV sd0s1a sd1s1a od0s1a and that will make all the devices required to use the partitions on slice 1 of sd0, sd1, and od0. -- Zach Heilig -- zach@gaffaneys.com Real Programs don't use shared text. Otherwise, how can they use functions for scratch space after they are finished calling them? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 21:54:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11453 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:54:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11384 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA23702 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:54:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:53:30 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help /dev/sd01s1b gone after MAKEDEV all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay I solved the problem. Thanks to the people who suggested the following tip. cd /dev ./MAKEDEV sd0s1b Now this would have worked if I had the Walnut Creek CD-ROM set. I could then use the fixit option and used the live file system to recover. You see chmod/chown sits in /usr/local/sbin. Since I couldn't mount my /usr partition, ( did I forget to mention that) MAKEDEV would die. I solved the problem by doing the following: 1) Boot from install floppy 2) I select all the drives that were affected 3) Then used disklabel to set each partition back to there correct mount point, with the Newfs option set to NO. 4) Clear my distribution set 5) then selected commit Sysinstall then wrote out the disklabels, updated /dev, and ran a fsck on all partitions. There was once side effect, my /etc/services file had only 4 lines in it. Because of this, syslogd would complain about a missing syslogd/udp entry missing from /etc/services and exit with a error message. This little problem as solved by installing the source for /etc in /usr/src/etc. I then copied the full services file into /etc. Adjusted /etc directory permissions. Rebooted Now all is well. Good Night Many Thanks to those who helped. Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com BTW: If this was NT I would be in hell. Why is NT so unforgiving ? Also when you buy a FreeBSD CD-ROM set, buy the Walnut Collection. I had the Infomagic FreeBSD/NetBSD combo. It is a very good set mind you, but if I had that live file system CD-ROM, I would have solved this problem a long time ago. Time to renew my subscription to FreeBSD. On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Paul Griffith wrote: > > Okay I did something very foolish, I typed MAKEDEV all from the /dev > directory, now everytime I reboot I get the following error messages: > /dev/sd0s1b No file or directory > /dev/sd1s1b No file or directory > those two are my swap partitions > > /dev/sd1s1e -No file or directory > can't stat /dev/sd1s1e > Non this is my 2GB /usr drive > > /dev/od0s1e - No file or directory > That's my optical backup > > BTW: I am running 2.2.2, Any clues or ideas I will the fixit option from > the CD-ROM > > Thanks > Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com > P.S: Feel free to post all night long, I might be up that long. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 22:29:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20384 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:29:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp1.mts.net (smtp1.mts.net [205.200.16.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20337 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:28:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmcaulay@mb.sympatico.ca) Received: from default (slkras1c-p03.mts.net [205.200.48.97]) by smtp1.mts.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA18608 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:28:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34F3B996.7CD1@mb.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:26:30 -0600 From: Craig Mcaulay Reply-To: cmcaulay@mb.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: gift baskets Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 22:33:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21908 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:33:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newport-1-12.quick.net (josh@newport-1-12.quick.net [207.212.160.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21865 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:33:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josh@newport-1-12.quick.net) Received: (from josh@localhost) by newport-1-12.quick.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05028; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:33:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josh) Message-ID: <19980224223325.27540@newport-2-6.quick.net> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:33:25 -0800 From: Josh Gilliam To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Token Ring for FreeBSD yet? References: <34f7c0ad.8650028@mail.cetlink.net> <15135.888386736@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90 (restore_url) In-Reply-To: <15135.888386736@time.cdrom.com> X-IRC: soil X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hey, I was just going by the evidence in front of me (4 year's worth > of discussion about token ring and no actual implementation of same by > all those folks saying how much they liked/wanted/needed TR support). > I wasn't attempting to turn this into an ongoing debate. Someone also > sent me private mail also saying "gee, thanks a lot for shooting down > our token ring porting effort, you knob!" and I replied that if yet > another token ring effort had started up then it was certainly news to > me and I wished them luck, albeit with a certain cynicism about their > chances based on past experience with all the other folks who claimed > to be doing the same work and then just vanished into thin air. "No person whose entire time is spent in the contemplation of limitation can demonstrate freedom from such limitation." - Ernest Holmes. _The Science of Mind_ (p. 267). Dodd, Mead & Company. 1938 -- Josh Gilliam 1 714 633 6499 5333 E LOS ARBOLES AVE josh@quick.net ORANGE CA 92869-4216 USA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 22:37:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22249 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA22242 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 2454 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Feb 1998 06:42:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19980225074239.32319@paert.tse-online.de> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:42:39 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: searching for a real cvsupd - primer References: <19980224163928.44788@paert.tse-online.de> <34f3b481.5536440@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <34f3b481.5536440@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 06:11:12AM +0000 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 06:11:12AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > >I want to make use of a local cvsup-server, that should feed our > >various (-current and -stable) machines. > > >The documentation (FreeBSD Handbook and man-pages) for the client-side is > >sufficient, but certainly I'm not able to get a grip on the > >cvsupd-configuration. > > Install the cvsup-mirror port and you will see "the light." ouups, ... I've forgotte to say that I just make use of the cvsup-mirror port to get the steps done, I've described in my last message. Therefor .. help-requested renewed ... Sorry for the mis-information, Andreas -- /// TSE TeleService GmbH | Gsf: Arne Reuter | /// Hovestrasse 14 | Andreas Braukmann | We do it with /// D-48351 Everswinkel | HRB: 1430, AG WAF | FreeBSD/SMP /// ------------------------------------------------------------------- /// PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key /// Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 23:29:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29076 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:29:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA29062 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:29:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA15615; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:28:51 -0800 (PST) To: Josh Gilliam cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Token Ring for FreeBSD yet? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:33:25 PST." <19980224223325.27540@newport-2-6.quick.net> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:28:51 -0800 Message-ID: <15611.888391731@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "No person whose entire time is spent in the contemplation of > limitation can demonstrate freedom from such limitation." That'd be an appropriate truism if I or any of the other significant contributors spent our entire time in such contemplation. As it is, I don't think we even have enough time to contemplate such limitations as much as we probably should. :) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 24 23:46:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01863 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:46:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01845 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:46:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA01489; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 02:41:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 02:41:35 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: ABAMFICI@aol.com cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: single key shutdown | pulling the plug ideas... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Cc: adjusted -- this is _not_ -hackers material] On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 ABAMFICI@aol.com wrote: > really say. It would appear logical to whoever sees you > pulling a plug, to yank out the main source if you will, i.e. > the plug coming out of the wall. The idea of taking out each Wouldn't they sort-of notice that the monitor doesn't go blank, and the fan doesn't go silent? :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 25 00:10:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA05275 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from public.fhnet.cn.net ([202.99.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05123 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:09:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jiangpet@nease.net) Received: from killer.sdh (ppp121.fhnet.cn.net [202.99.8.121] (may be forged)) by public.fhnet.cn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA29272 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:09:26 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <34F3D1C3.1241@nease.net> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:09:39 +0800 From: jiangpet Reply-To: jiangpet@nease.net Organization: jiangpet@nease.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org help To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 26 01:22:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21713 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:22:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc8.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA21708 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:22:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tg@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.90.6]) by ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14987; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:22:08 +0100 (CET) Received: (from tg@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA00464; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:22:07 +0100 (CET) To: Mark Murray Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci brktree_reg.h brooktree848.c References: <199802201846.UAA17422@greenpeace.grondar.za> From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 26 Feb 1998 10:22:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: Mark Murray's message of Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:46:31 +0200 Message-ID: <87sop64t6o.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.16 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray writes: > Thomas Gellekum wrote: > > You do realize that there are lots of non-native speakers who are > > eager to learn new words? And maybe some others who are interested in > > local dialects of the English language? ;-) > > Hehehe! In ZA we have 11 official languages. I can swear fluently in 4 > of them. waddya want to know? Oh, nothing in particular. It's usually the other way round: ``Interesting word. What does it mean?'' tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 26 13:35:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29450 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:35:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29437 for chat; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:35:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199802262135.NAA29437@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Thanks, but... (fwd) To: chat Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:35:06 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org remember the "come from" statement. the other end of a "goto" so to speak. looks like someone is looking for a email implementation. ;) jmb ----- Forwarded message from To: freebsd-security@freebsd.org Subject: Thanks, but... Sender: owner-freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG Hello, Thanks for all answers, but my question doesn't match with your answers (not so self-confident, Chris "Troll" Yarnell). My question is (and that's why I've post this on freebsd-security mailing list) : Can anyone insert a trick to become a systematic CC recipient of your mail EVEN IF YOU DON'T WANT ??? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 26 18:45:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01737 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:45:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01690 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:45:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-209.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.209]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA01348 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:44:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA12112 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:44:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802270244.UAA12112@nospam.hiwaay.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Adaptec Buys Symbios? From: David Kelly Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:44:48 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Am I the only one who reads printed material and has seen that Adaptec has made an offer to buy Symbios from Hyundai? http://www.symbios.com/whathot/adaptec02-19-98.htm Will this be the end of inexpensive NCR/Symbios SCSI cards? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 26 19:02:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04900 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:02:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04873 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:02:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14193; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:11:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980226221140.02479@vmunix.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:11:40 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adaptec Buys Symbios? References: <199802270244.UAA12112@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199802270244.UAA12112@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 08:44:48PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 08:44:48PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > Am I the only one who reads printed material and has seen that Adaptec > has made an offer to buy Symbios from Hyundai? > > http://www.symbios.com/whathot/adaptec02-19-98.htm > > Will this be the end of inexpensive NCR/Symbios SCSI cards? I also noticed this announcement a week ago or so at the Infoworld site, but I have no idea what this will mean for the future of the NCR based SCSI cards... They (Adaptec) seemed to indicate that they would be using both lines, but at this point in the game, I'd say it's impossible to know.. :-) -Mark -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 26 19:05:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05362 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:05:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@206-18-115-64.la.inreach.net [206.18.115.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05134 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:04:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr@POBoxes.com) Received: from localhost (dburr@localhost) by colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07278; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr@POBoxes.com) X-Authentication-Warning: control.colossus.dyn.ml.org: dburr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Burr X-Sender: dburr@control.colossus.dyn.ml.org To: David Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adaptec Buys Symbios? In-Reply-To: <199802270244.UAA12112@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, this was brought up a while ago in -scsi (or was it aic7xxx@freebsd.org?) My understanding was that the deal was done and official. These are completely wild guesses, but they might (probably?) make a line of inexpensive SCSI adapters based on the Symbios chips, sort of like what they did with the old Future Domain adapters (i.e. the AHA-2910/2920). Or it is also possible that they will basically leave Symbios alone -- "you do things your way, just rmember that we own you now, and you have to put 'subsidiary of Adaptec' on your website/documentation/etc.'" Donald Burr - Ask me for my PGP key | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, David Kelly wrote: > Am I the only one who reads printed material and has seen that Adaptec > has made an offer to buy Symbios from Hyundai? > > http://www.symbios.com/whathot/adaptec02-19-98.htm > > Will this be the end of inexpensive NCR/Symbios SCSI cards? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 26 22:31:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03365 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:31:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.dyn.ml.org (host77-59.airnet.net [209.64.77.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03355 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:31:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@ninbox.dyn.ml.org) Received: from ninbox.dyn.ml.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA03501; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:31:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34F65DBD.7D75D254@ninbox.dyn.ml.org> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:31:25 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Reply-To: kris@airnet.net Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug White CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPX: what is it good for? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug White wrote: > Route IPX packets from one network to another. Let me see if I got this: Use FreeBSD and route IPX and IP at the same time along with the usual multitasking, or run a (single user) program to route IPX only.... Hmmm... FreeBSD +1 Novell 0. -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 27 03:36:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA07097 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 03:36:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from piranha.eds.ch (ns2.eds.ch [194.235.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA07085 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 03:36:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto.nunnari@agie.ch) Received: by piranha.eds.ch (940816.SGI.8.6.9/951211.SGI.AUTO) for id MAA24105; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:31:09 +0100 Received: from agie.eds.ch(198.132.159.194) by piranha via smap (3.1) id xma024074; Fri, 27 Feb 98 12:30:40 +0100 Received: by agie.eds.ch (950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI.AUTO) for id MAA14706; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:37:32 -0800 Received: from unknown(172.16.6.12) by agie via smap (3.1) id xma014702; Fri, 27 Feb 98 12:37:22 -0800 Message-ID: <34F6A44E.32FA@agie.ch> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:32:30 +0100 From: Roberto Nunnari Reply-To: roberto.nunnari@agie.ch Organization: AGIE - 6616 Losone - Switzerland X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (OS/2; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat Subject: ELKS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all. I've been following for a couple of days the postings about ELKS and I'd like to know more about it... Is ELKS a project run by FreeBSD people? Is there some URL that I can take a look at to know more about it? (I already take a quick look at the FreeBSD site with no luck...) Ciao. -- """ (o o) =======================oOO==(_)==OOo======================== Roberto Nunnari -software engineer- AGIE-CHARMILLES - 6616 Losone - Switzerland phone: +41 / 91 / 806 91 38 E-Mail: roberto.nunnari@agie.ch WWW : http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/3935/ ============================================================ MY OPINIONS ARE NOT NECESSARELY THOSE OF AGIE-CHARMILLES ============================================================ (Hammer nail here --> <-- for a new monitor.) ============================================================ ************ luck is... miss the wrong train ! ************* ============================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 27 04:53:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16301 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:53:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@206-18-113-204.la.inreach.net [206.18.113.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA16296 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:53:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr@colossus.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05089; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Description: signed PGP message Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <34F6A44E.32FA@agie.ch> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 04:52:22 -0800 (PST) Organization: Starfleet Command From: Donald Burr To: Roberto Nunnari Subject: RE: ELKS Cc: freebsd-chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- My secret spy satellite informs me that on 27-Feb-98, Roberto Nunnari wrote: > Hi all. > > I've been following for a couple of days the postings about > ELKS and I'd like to know more about it... > Is ELKS a project run by FreeBSD people? > Is there some URL that I can take a look at to know more > about it? (I already take a quick look at the FreeBSD site > with no luck...) ELKS is actually a Linux-based product (it stands for Embeddable Linux Kernel Subset). Anyway, you can check it out at the following URL: http://www.linux.org.uk/ELKS-Home/index.html - --- Donald Burr - Ask me for my PGP key | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNPa3BvjpixuAwagxAQFSXQP/WmX3KMNn8gIOV80jXsToSmR47r4T17kM O461U69JzgqBDeRxlBqfinmvTnEW/C0cFCZsU/MUuVVvAkvlChdoSL6y49uTzW63 S+nUVxRF3hUmBHiKd33CZFdzCTEso+TJGynjZGYIvMrBIfpMh1PGHfr8HTm9JOK3 y9StFJIIlwU= =K0LZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 27 05:58:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23044 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 05:58:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from piranha.eds.ch (piranha.eds.ch [194.235.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA23036 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 05:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto.nunnari@agie.ch) Received: by piranha.eds.ch (940816.SGI.8.6.9/951211.SGI.AUTO) for id OAA00030; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:53:18 +0100 Received: from agie.eds.ch(198.132.159.194) by piranha via smap (3.1) id xma000024; Fri, 27 Feb 98 14:53:16 +0100 Received: by agie.eds.ch (950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI.AUTO) id OAA19609; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:47:05 -0800 Received: from unknown(172.16.6.12) by agie via smap (3.1) id xma019578; Fri, 27 Feb 98 14:46:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34F6C28D.B4D@agie.ch> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:41:33 +0100 From: Roberto Nunnari Reply-To: roberto.nunnari@agie.ch Organization: AGIE - 6616 Losone - Switzerland X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (OS/2; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Burr CC: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: ELKS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Donald Burr wrote: > > ELKS is actually a Linux-based product (it stands for Embeddable Linux > Kernel Subset). Anyway, you can check it out at the following URL: > > http://www.linux.org.uk/ELKS-Home/index.html > Thanks a lot for the link, Donald... I'll take a look. Bye. -- """ (o o) =======================oOO==(_)==OOo======================== Roberto Nunnari -software engineer- AGIE-CHARMILLES - 6616 Losone - Switzerland phone: +41 / 91 / 806 91 38 E-Mail: roberto.nunnari@agie.ch WWW : http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/3935/ ============================================================ MY OPINIONS ARE NOT NECESSARELY THOSE OF AGIE-CHARMILLES ============================================================ (Hammer nail here --> <-- for a new monitor.) ============================================================ ************ luck is... miss the wrong train ! ************* ============================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 27 09:57:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27186 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:57:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from atlanta_nt2.atlanta.glenayre.com ([157.230.176.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27162 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:57:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Jhicks@ATLANTA.GLENAYRE.com) Received: by atlanta_nt2.atlanta.glenayre.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:53:01 -0500 Message-ID: <214EEC7B4CBED011B11900805F31B04741136B@atlanta_nt2.atlanta.glenayre.com> From: "Hicks, Jerry" To: "'Michael V. Harding'" Cc: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: Netcom blocked? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:53:00 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -redirected to chat- Caused me to cancel my Netcom account. I am a former employee of Dave Garrison, CEO of Netcom. Knowing his personal opinion of spam I don't see how his systems management team has been able to get away with having open relay hosts. My inquiries to Netcom customer support were spun off as a misconfiguration of my mail client (shrug). Considering Netcom's anti-spam "statement", their position on relaying seems to be extremely hypocritical. Hopefully, some resolution will be forthcoming... Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhicks@atlanta.glenayre.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael V. Harding [SMTP:mvh@nofear.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 9:47 PM > To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Netcom blocked? > > > I can't seem to send mail to the stable group from netcom - is this > domain blocked? If so, it's sort of harsh - I can't even unsubscribe! > > Mike Harding > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 15:57:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07269 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:57:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07115 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA11997; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:56:54 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:56:51 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: newbies mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am a newbie and that's not going to change for quite a while. For many reasons I want to talk to other newbies in a newbie environment. It's hard to explain my reasons and you'll probably find this hard to understand, but I ask you for the moment just to accept that the need might be felt to exist, at least for some people. Freebsd-questions is good and useful, and so is the FAQ etc, but there's still something missing. I've never had a great deal of success with the mailing list search (I tend to get the questions but not the answers), but found the topic of a mailing list for newbies raised briefly last October, and some reference to previous discussions which were not visible. I have a lot of ideas about what I'd like to see, but most great ideas to date have turned out to be crap in the light of further information. Could someone please summarise the argument against a mailing list for newbies before I either press for one to be created or do it myself. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 17:32:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18417 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18395 for chat; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:32:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803010132.RAA18395@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Spanish SPAM??? To: chat Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:32:43 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org who knows spanish? are we getting spanish spam now? jmb ----- Forwarded message from ILUPE7 ----- (envelope-from economia@datanet.es) >From owner-freebsd-www Sat Feb 28 16:58:28 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: SRVODL1.odllink.com: Host ppp166.200.redestb.es [195.122.200.166] didn't use HELO protocol Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19700101010000.0079b3e0@odl> X-Sender: ilupe@odl (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1970 01:00:00 +0100 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: ILUPE7 Sender: owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Muy Sr. nuestro: Solicitamos su atención para presentarle nuestra publicación semanal "Confidencial de Economia, Negocios y Bolsa" En ella encontrara junto a noticias y comentarios de actualidad tratados con un rigor, profundidad y seriedad difíciles de hallar en otras publicaciones de difusion masiva, otras secciones de gran interes profesional referidas al mundo de los negocios, tales como oportunidades, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 17:59:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21776 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:59:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21770; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:59:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10630; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:59:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803010159.RAA10630@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Spanish SPAM??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:32:43 PST." <199803010132.RAA18395@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:59:07 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay , I am bored however is counter intuitive to translate spam for I automatically delete them. Dear Sir, We solicit your attention for presenting you our weekly publication: Economic, Business and Treasury , Confidentials In it you will find news, rigorous treatises profound and serious which are difficult to find on other vague publications, other sections of great profesional interest refer to global business as well as opportunities. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 18:08:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22881 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:08:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22867; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:08:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id TAA25497; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:08:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA01482; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:06:36 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:06:36 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Spanish SPAM??? In-Reply-To: <199803010132.RAA18395@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > who knows spanish? > are we getting spanish spam now? http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com is your friend.... even if it doesn't give exactly... erm... good translations. It gives: Very Mr. our: We asked for its attention to present/display our weekly publication to him " Confidential of Economia, Businesses and Stock market " In her it found next to the news and commentaries of the present time dealt with a rigor, depth and seriousness difficult to find in other publications of massive diffusion, other sections of great professional interest referred the world of the businesses, such as opportunities, I think you get the idea of what it is saying. It doesn't seem typical spam because it doesn't give any contact info, etc. or ask you to send $$$ or give a web site, but the content otherwise seems spammy enough. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 18:38:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26329 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:38:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26266 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-104.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.104]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20869 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:38:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA05437 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:38:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803010238.UAA05437@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-reply-to: Message from Sue Blake of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:56:51 +1100." <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:38:11 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org While on the subject of new mailing lists, I've been thinking a list dedicated to networking issues would be nice. FreeBSD-net? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 19:03:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28613 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:03:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28579 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:02:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06208; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:32:35 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA03678; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:32:34 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:32:34 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 10:56:51AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > I am a newbie and that's not going to change for quite a while. For many > reasons I want to talk to other newbies in a newbie environment. I skimmed over this a while back, and I though "I wonder what Sue Blake will think of this". I suppose I've stopped wondering. > It's hard to explain my reasons and you'll probably find this hard to > understand, but I ask you for the moment just to accept that the need might > be felt to exist, at least for some people. Freebsd-questions is good and > useful, and so is the FAQ etc, but there's still something missing. I think you'll find that something will continue to be missing. I've thought about these problems, too, but I haven't come up with a useful solution. Life's a bitch. > I've never had a great deal of success with the mailing list search (I tend > to get the questions but not the answers), but found the topic of a mailing > list for newbies raised briefly last October, and some reference to previous > discussions which were not visible. Now *that* might be a problem that could be addressed. I find the mailing list search pretty useless, too. > I have a lot of ideas about what I'd like to see, but most great > ideas to date have turned out to be crap in the light of further > information. Could someone please summarise the argument against a > mailing list for newbies before I either press for one to be created > or do it myself. I think that I could summarize the arguments against with "the blind leading the blind". At least in -questions you have a couple of one-eyed men. You also have a number of people who can scare newbies off, sure, but that will happen even if there's a newbies list. At the moment, I have concerns about the overlap between -questions and -hackers (see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html). A newbies list would just compound the problem. On the other hand, I can't really see much advantage from a newbies list. Maybe you should present more arguments. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 19:19:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00229 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:19:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (algae1.verinet.com [199.45.181.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00196 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:19:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03560; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:19:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:19:17 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199803010319.UAA03560@const.> To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, marcs@znep.com Subject: Re: Spanish SPAM??? Cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > present time dealt with a rigor, depth and seriousness difficult to > find in other publications of massive diffusion Rather prophetic. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 19:52:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03943 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:52:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03933; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:52:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803010352.TAA03933@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 1, 98 01:32:34 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:52:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: sue@welearn.com.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On the other hand, I can't really see much advantage from a newbies > list. Maybe you should present more arguments. i concur with greg on this one. what would a newbies list offer that questions does not? a newbies list would be somewhere "safe" to ask simple questions.....well that's part of questions. besides questions offers some more advanced material as well. how long before newbie with a little knowlege abandon the newbies list in favor of the other lists? a list of only newbies would not be very useful. i dont understand the purpose or attraction of such a list. ;( jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 21:23:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12417 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12357 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:22:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12631; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:22:37 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:22:32 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > It's hard to explain my reasons and you'll probably find this hard to > > understand, but I ask you for the moment just to accept that the need might > > be felt to exist, at least for some people. Freebsd-questions is good and > > useful, and so is the FAQ etc, but there's still something missing. > > I think you'll find that something will continue to be missing. I've > thought about these problems, too, but I haven't come up with a useful > solution. Life's a bitch. Perhaps it is necessary to reach that stage in order to see clearly whatever it is that is still missing. Even so, much could be gained. > I think that I could summarize the arguments against with "the blind > leading the blind". Of course it would. I don't see that as a problem, so long as nobody expected it to be anything else. > At least in -questions you have a couple of one-eyed men. You also have a > number of people who can scare newbies off, sure, but that will happen > even if there's a newbies list. There are some people who on some occasions treat newbies badly. Sometimes it's by accident, sometimes of necessity. I'm not just talking about nasty comments. Far more common are answers which sound like a line out of the man page, or assume obvious things like that the person will know to restart the damn thing (and how to) after changing its configuration :-) There's no workable solution. If every answer spelled everything out, the list would become huge and boring, many who want the one-liners would be insulted by the level of answer, and people would start complaining about seeing extended discussion of the same simple problem. But most of the time the newbies treat themselves badly in that environment; their behaviour is inappropriate to such a list. They do not know, or are two stressed out to care, how to present a well formed question while adhering to the conventions of using a mailing list. One thing I'd like to see is a list where behaviour doesn't have to matter so much and can be addressed *after* the more pressing problems. Another aspect of inappropriate newbie behaviour is their preparedness to blame themselves whether or not that is warranted, and then toggle into defensive mode when made to feel small. Outcomes include people living with problems rather than asking for help, giving up FreeBSD because they think it's too hard, and sticking with FreeBSD when it's clearly too hard for them. > At the moment, I have concerns about the overlap between -questions > and -hackers (see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html). A newbies > list would just compound the problem. I newbies list would have nothing to do with the confusion between -questions and -hackers. In fact a newbies list might have little in common with, and little impact on -questions. I'm thinking of something for the people who don't participate in -questions, and those who you wish wouldn't. > On the other hand, I can't really see much advantage from a newbies > list. You're not meant to :-) > Maybe you should present more arguments. When you tell me what's wrong with these ones. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 21:26:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13723 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:26:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pimout1-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.18.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13049; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:25:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA101010; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:21:54 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:21:52 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > I am a newbie and that's not going to change for quite a while. For many > reasons I want to talk to other newbies in a newbie environment. I am a newbie and proud. : ) I would like to see a list such as this and have often wondered myself why there is not such a beast. > I have a lot of ideas about what I'd like to see, but most great ideas > to date have turned out to be crap in the light of further information. > Could someone please summarise the argument against a mailing list for > newbies before I either press for one to be created or do it myself. I would also like to hear the resoning for this. I think it would be a good idea. I understand that too many lists would be a bad thing and there is no need for a freebsd-basketweaving group, but to me at least a newbies group seems logical. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 21:38:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16224 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16207; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:38:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12691; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:37:52 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301163748.41533@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:37:49 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <199803010352.TAA03933@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199803010352.TAA03933@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 07:52:01PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 07:52:01PM -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > On the other hand, I can't really see much advantage from a newbies > > list. Maybe you should present more arguments. > > i concur with greg on this one. > what would a newbies list offer that questions does not? > > a newbies list would be somewhere "safe" to ask simple > questions.....well that's part of questions. Sorry, but that it is not and never can be. > besides questions offers some more advanced material as well. And that is its real value. > how long before newbie with a little knowlege abandon the > newbies list in favor of the other lists? Hopefully pretty quickly. I'm not trying to help you by getting newbies out of your hair. I'm trying to help newbies by creating an enclave which offers something quite different to what already exists. > a list of only newbies would not be very useful. It would be extremely unuseful to anyone but a newbie. I expect that everyone except newbies will hate the idea, and newbies will love it :-) > i dont understand the purpose or attraction of such a list. ;( And I can't cause you to understand any more than you can cause me to understand FreeBSD. We're too many poles apart to have similar motivations and perspectives, though neither is less real than the other. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 21:44:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17880 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:44:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17746 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:44:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06371; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:14:08 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA04334; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:14:07 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:14:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:22:32PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > >> I think that I could summarize the arguments against with "the blind >> leading the blind". > > Of course it would. I don't see that as a problem, so long as nobody > expected it to be anything else. Well, I suppose that's a viewpoint. What advantage do you see in the blind leading the blind? What advantage do you you think others will see in the blind leading the blind? >> At least in -questions you have a couple of one-eyed men. You also have a >> number of people who can scare newbies off, sure, but that will happen >> even if there's a newbies list. > > There are some people who on some occasions treat newbies badly. Sometimes > it's by accident, sometimes of necessity. I'm not just talking about nasty > comments. Far more common are answers which sound like a line out of the man > page, or assume obvious things like that the person will know to restart the > damn thing (and how to) after changing its configuration :-) That's a problem, all right. When I'm answering a question, I often ask myself just what background the person has, especially if, as so often, the message is less than informative about this background. I generally give the person the "benefit of the doubt": I assume he knows what he's talking about, and he just has this little problem. If, on the other hand, they say "I'm a complete newbie, and I don't know what the (**&* this is all about", I try to be more helpful. I could do this the other way around, of course. One way or another, I'm liable to annoy somebody. And quite honestly, I'd rather annoy a newbie who can't even read the regular postings I send every week than a budding hacker who is liable to stay with the FreeBSD movement. You could, of course, cater for these people in the newbies list, like the guy who recently wrote "Somebody told me not to run fsck on a live file system, so I did it and my system crashed. What did I do wrong?". If you do that [cater for these people], you get what you deserve. > There's no workable solution. If every answer spelled everything > out, the list would become huge and boring, many who want the > one-liners would be insulted by the level of answer, and people > would start complaining about seeing extended discussion of the same > simple problem. Precisely. > But most of the time the newbies treat themselves badly in that > environment; their behaviour is inappropriate to such a list. They > do not know, or are two stressed out to care, how to present a well > formed question while adhering to the conventions of using a mailing > list. One thing I'd like to see is a list where behaviour doesn't > have to matter so much and can be addressed *after* the more > pressing problems. Hmm. You *are* a philanthopist at heart. > Another aspect of inappropriate newbie behaviour is their > preparedness to blame themselves whether or not that is warranted, Occasionally. Usually those people aren't the rank newbies, rather people who could benefit from -questions. > and then toggle into defensive mode when made to feel small. Yes, Real Hackers never get defensive. > Outcomes include people living with problems rather than asking for > help, giving up FreeBSD because they think it's too hard, and > sticking with FreeBSD when it's clearly too hard for them. Right. Of course, giving up FreeBSD because they think it's too hard might be the right choice. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you. >> At the moment, I have concerns about the overlap between -questions >> and -hackers (see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html). A newbies >> list would just compound the problem. > > I newbies list would have nothing to do with the confusion between > -questions and -hackers. In fact a newbies list might have little in common > with, and little impact on -questions. I'm thinking of something for the > people who don't participate in -questions, and those who you wish wouldn't. OK. How about this: you create and moderate a newbies list trying to get the questions into shape for -questions, and then forward them there. It's worth a try. Tell people that they can post to either list, but they'll get more sympathetic treatment from auntie than they will on -questions. See who leaps in to help them apart from yourself. We could always let it die again, and I suspect we will (with your full approval and a sigh of relief :-), but I could be wrong. What do you others think? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 21:45:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18262 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:45:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@199-170-160-225.la.inreach.net [199.107.160.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18245; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr@colossus.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17982; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:46:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Description: signed PGP message Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803010132.RAA18395@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:46:01 -0800 (PST) Organization: Starfleet Command From: Donald Burr To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: RE: Spanish SPAM??? Cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- My secret spy satellite informs me that on 01-Mar-98, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > who knows spanish? > are we getting spanish spam now? > jmb BTW, Actually, you could've translated that yourself, using the AltaVista Translator: http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/ OK, the translation isn't perfect, and often makes some (sometimes hilarious) errors, but you can get the gist of what the original message was saying. It comes in real handy when you get the occasional message in German (eg. I subscribe to the KDE mailing lists, and since KDE is worked on by many German people, and it is based in germany, you occasionally see a German message or three fly by...) (It will trsnalte between English <-> {French,German,Italian,Portuguese,Spanish}. It also trsnaltes WEb pages (a nice feature IMHO). Anyway, the thing (this message) was basically advertising some sort of business/stock market/investors newsletter. Yes, the spam keeps coming... - --- Donald Burr - Ask me for my PGP key | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNPj2GPjpixuAwagxAQEiFQP/SRw3D9ng45ke2KkuHa32XIndf6ESaADi NdqO1b15M6sA0mW2mz+Pp/GdyciMMcoGF54+fKn8rjbmSCB+uI7s+eVm/5fvo9gM JuaM1vHPmHLE5oa5N4mhSrZnp/CEkhEo35Vpe+7RkIG4z4QZEZ0mxltCnuuIE2Aj IeR1H7UEdo0= =6qY4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 21:53:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20479 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:53:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pimout1-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.18.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20457; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:53:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA72868; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:49:34 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:49:32 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Sue Blake cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > It's hard to explain my reasons and you'll probably find this hard to > > > understand, but I ask you for the moment just to accept that the need might > > > be felt to exist, at least for some people. Freebsd-questions is good and > > > useful, and so is the FAQ etc, but there's still something missing. > > > > I think you'll find that something will continue to be missing. I've > > thought about these problems, too, but I haven't come up with a useful > > solution. Life's a bitch. > > Perhaps it is necessary to reach that stage in order to see clearly whatever > it is that is still missing. Even so, much could be gained. > > > I think that I could summarize the arguments against with "the blind > > leading the blind". Also, the new person that just figured out how to see spreading his knowledge a bit. Sometime just learning it lends to teaching it. Ever had an expert explain something trivial to you? Sometimes it can be painful. > > Of course it would. I don't see that as a problem, so long as nobody > expected it to be anything else. > > > At least in -questions you have a couple of one-eyed men. You also have a > > number of people who can scare newbies off, sure, but that will happen > > even if there's a newbies list. > > There are some people who on some occasions treat newbies badly. Sometimes > it's by accident, sometimes of necessity. I'm not just talking about nasty > comments. Far more common are answers which sound like a line out of the man > page, or assume obvious things like that the person will know to restart the > damn thing (and how to) after changing its configuration :-) > Not to mention that despite the fact that questions *is* relatively safe for newbies some people may be intimidated by posting what might seem to be a trival question to a group that does have some considerable meat to it. > There's no workable solution. If every answer spelled everything out, the > list would become huge and boring, many who want the one-liners would be > insulted by the level of answer, and people would start complaining about > seeing extended discussion of the same simple problem. Questions does not seem to be too bad about complaints concerning extended discussion on simple things. It does no go to the level of some newsgroups, where a relativly new person asks a simple question and the get "Read the FAQ" back as a response. > But most of the time the newbies treat themselves badly in that environment; > their behaviour is inappropriate to such a list. They do not know, or are > two stressed out to care, how to present a well formed question while > adhering to the conventions of using a mailing list. One thing I'd like to > see is a list where behaviour doesn't have to matter so much and can be > addressed *after* the more pressing problems. Been there done that, I also admit I am new to posting messages to a somewhat widely distributed mailing list and am constantly worried about looking stupid. I have often started to post questions then turn around work more and either figure out the problem or just give up. (Like that $%&* soundcard : ) ) > Another aspect of inappropriate newbie behaviour is their preparedness to > blame themselves whether or not that is warranted, and then toggle into > defensive mode when made to feel small. Outcomes include people living with > problems rather than asking for help, giving up FreeBSD because they think > it's too hard, and sticking with FreeBSD when it's clearly too hard for them. > > > > At the moment, I have concerns about the overlap between -questions > > and -hackers (see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html). A newbies > > list would just compound the problem. Again, that technical overlap might cause some intimidation towards some newbies. > I newbies list would have nothing to do with the confusion between > -questions and -hackers. In fact a newbies list might have little in common > with, and little impact on -questions. I'm thinking of something for the > people who don't participate in-questions, and those who you wish wouldn't. > > > > On the other hand, I can't really see much advantage from a newbies > > list. > > You're not meant to :-) > > > Maybe you should present more arguments. > > When you tell me what's wrong with these ones. > James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:04:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22232 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:04:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22224 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:04:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA24062; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:13:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980301011318.06574@vmunix.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:13:18 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: Greg Lehey , Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:14:07PM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:14:07PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: [See the thread for the rest of the discussion :)] > What do you others think? I think that if you create a -newbies, a significant portion of the questions that currently go to -questions will go to -newbies. Why? If I were a newbie, and I had a problem, I would go "Oh, a newbie list! I'll ask there!". So I think it would get significant traffic. For this reason, it would be impossible for Sue to formally moderate it in any way.. I think a -newbies wouldn't necessairly be bad (in this statement I'm admitting that my initial reaction was: yeah, right..). It might direct the truly simple questions away from -questions, which might in turn become the generic questions list for everyone. Right now, if it's a newbie question, it goes to -questions. If the question is moderately advanced, it goes to -hackers when it should really go to -questions IMHO. So I guess I'm saying that adding a -newbies list might help successfully 3-tier the lists into something a little more logical. Maybe not.. If people who are willing to answer beiginner questions do so on -questions, then I don't see why they wouldn't do so on -newbies, so I don't think you would end up with a "blind leading the blind" type of situation. Just my $.02.. (Basically, I see -hackers as an abused list, and I would like to see much of the traffic on it moved to -questions, and I think that adding a -newbies would entice more knowledgeable people to hang on -questions making that a viable proposal.. Man, this whole composition is filled with horrid grammer.. time for bed.. ;-)) -Mark > > Greg > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:05:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22408 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:05:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22401 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:05:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA12788; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:04:39 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301170435.11729@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:04:35 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:14:07PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, this is the kind of thing I had in mind. Criticism welcome. OBJECTIVES: 1. To provide a forum to meet and exchange experiences with other new FreeBSD users, in a tolerant, friendly and encouraging environment. 2. To help new users of FreeBSD to understand their problems sufficiently to present a well formed question to the FreeBSD support list, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org DO I BELONG HERE? Try this quick quiz: 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? 2. Have you ever done something incredibly stupid? If you answered no to the first and yes to the second, you'll be OK. RULE: Try hard to never do anything that might cause another newbie discomfort or confusion. For example, expressing annoyance at a post to the list causes discomfort to many, and wrong guesses confuse if they are presented as statements of fact rather than descriptions of personal experience. Be aware that we're a sensitive lot communicating through an ambiguous medium, and if we didn't make mistakes we wouldn't be here. WARNING: Don't trust any advice you get here! We're all newbies, and any response to a question will be at best an uneducated guess. If you act on what we say without checking its validity you're likely to do great damage to your system, probably your brain too. Throw ideas around and make your mistakes here, but if you want real answers and guidance that's worth considering, write to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. If it turns out that you've overlooked something really silly, we're not going to laugh at you. Our answers will often be just as silly. For example, you could use this list to help formulate a question that the helpful souls on freebsd-questions will find easy to answer properly. Still ask freebsd-questions even if you think we've already answered it here. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:06:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22608 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:06:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1y-int.prodigy.net (mail1y-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.19.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22561; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:05:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by mail1y-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA64446; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:03:17 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:03:15 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > Another aspect of inappropriate newbie behaviour is their > > preparedness to blame themselves whether or not that is warranted, > > Occasionally. Usually those people aren't the rank newbies, rather > people who could benefit from -questions. > > > and then toggle into defensive mode when made to feel small. > > Yes, Real Hackers never get defensive. Not all people are hackers, there are some people that just want to use the system, not develop something new and nifty. Take for instance the college student that is learning UNIX the or the first time and wanting to explore a bit on their own, or even just do their homework without having to sit in a dull lab or work over a slow telnet. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:12:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24140 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:12:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24091; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:11:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06418; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:41:36 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA04516; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:41:35 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980301164135.54221@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:41:35 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: zjhh2@etsu.edu Cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from James on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:03:15AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 1:03:15 -0500, James wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: >>> On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: >> >>> Another aspect of inappropriate newbie behaviour is their >>> preparedness to blame themselves whether or not that is warranted, >> >> Occasionally. Usually those people aren't the rank newbies, rather >> people who could benefit from -questions. >> >>> and then toggle into defensive mode when made to feel small. >> >> Yes, Real Hackers never get defensive. > > Not all people are hackers, there are some people that just want to use > the system, not develop something new and nifty. I think you missed the implied smily. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:26:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26260 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pimout1-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.18.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26188 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:26:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA106776; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:22:20 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:22:18 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301164135.54221@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 1:03:15 -0500, James wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > >>> On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>>> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > >> > >>> Another aspect of inappropriate newbie behaviour is their > >>> preparedness to blame themselves whether or not that is warranted, > >> > >> Occasionally. Usually those people aren't the rank newbies, rather > >> people who could benefit from -questions. > >> > >>> and then toggle into defensive mode when made to feel small. > >> > >> Yes, Real Hackers never get defensive. > > > > Not all people are hackers, there are some people that just want to use > > the system, not develop something new and nifty. > > I think you missed the implied smily. > > Greg > Doh! Yep... : ) Guess that is what I get for slapping explicit smileys all over the place.. :) James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:26:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26281 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:26:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pimout1-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.18.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26198; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:26:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA13514; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:19:34 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:19:32 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Sue Blake cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301170435.11729@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > OK, this is the kind of thing I had in mind. Criticism welcome. > > > OBJECTIVES: > > 1. To provide a forum to meet and exchange experiences with other new > FreeBSD users, in a tolerant, friendly and encouraging environment. > > 2. To help new users of FreeBSD to understand their problems sufficiently > to present a well formed question to the FreeBSD support list, > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > > > DO I BELONG HERE? > > Try this quick quiz: > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? Yes, find ....but don't ask me how to make it do it : ) > 2. Have you ever done something incredibly stupid? UMMM, would anyone believe me if I said no?? > If you answered no to the first and yes to the second, you'll be OK. I guess I am in the clear.. :) //section snipped see thread > WARNING: > > Don't trust any advice you get here! We're all newbies, and any response to > a question will be at best an uneducated guess. If you act on what we say > without checking its validity you're likely to do great damage to your > system, probably your brain too. > > Throw ideas around and make your mistakes here, but if you want real answers > and guidance that's worth considering, write to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. > If it turns out that you've overlooked something really silly, we're not > going to laugh at you. Our answers will often be just as silly. For > example, you could use this list to help formulate a question that the > helpful souls on freebsd-questions will find easy to answer properly. Still > ask freebsd-questions even if you think we've already answered it here. The warning is valid, but it does seem to kill the legitimacy of the list. What is the point of an answer, if there is no gaurntee that it does not work. Then again, all advice taken on any the lists is assumed to be correct. The real thing to do, albeit a weak stance, is just say, "Use some sense in what advice you use, and if at all possible test it in some way first." The other side of this coin is, "If they are new, what kind of grounds do they have to test advice." Sticky situation either way..... James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:28:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26800 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:28:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26775 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06440; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:57:54 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA04574; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:57:54 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980301165754.16454@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:57:54 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301170435.11729@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980301170435.11729@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 05:04:35PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:04:35 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > OK, this is the kind of thing I had in mind. Criticism welcome. > > > OBJECTIVES: > > 1. To provide a forum to meet and exchange experiences with other new > FreeBSD users, in a tolerant, friendly and encouraging environment. > > 2. To help new users of FreeBSD to understand their problems sufficiently > to present a well formed question to the FreeBSD support list, > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > > > DO I BELONG HERE? > > Try this quick quiz: > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? Hmm. I've seen your .sig before, but I don't think this is much of a criterion. > 2. Have you ever done something incredibly stupid? And this would definitely make me eligible :-) > If you answered no to the first and yes to the second, you'll be OK. How about: 1. Are you having such general difficulties with FreeBSD that you don't even know what the problem is? 2. Are you worried that you can't express the problem well enough to get a useful answer from -questions? > RULE: > > Try hard to never do anything that might cause another newbie discomfort or > confusion. For example, expressing annoyance at a post to the list causes > discomfort to many, and wrong guesses confuse if they are presented as > statements of fact rather than descriptions of personal experience. Be aware > that we're a sensitive lot communicating through an ambiguous medium, and if > we didn't make mistakes we wouldn't be here. > > WARNING: > > Don't trust any advice you get here! We're all newbies, and any response to > a question will be at best an uneducated guess. If you act on what we say > without checking its validity you're likely to do great damage to your > system, probably your brain too. > > Throw ideas around and make your mistakes here, but if you want real answers > and guidance that's worth considering, write to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. > If it turns out that you've overlooked something really silly, we're not > going to laugh at you. Our answers will often be just as silly. For > example, you could use this list to help formulate a question that the > helpful souls on freebsd-questions will find easy to answer properly. Still > ask freebsd-questions even if you think we've already answered it here. I suppose it's a start. The shortcomings will become evident in the course of time, I suppose. What do you say we ask on -questions? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:33:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27415 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:33:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1y-int.prodigy.net (mail1y-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.19.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27406; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:33:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by mail1y-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA80706; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:29:42 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:29:41 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Mark Mayo cc: Greg Lehey , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301011318.06574@vmunix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Mark Mayo wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:14:07PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > [See the thread for the rest of the discussion :)] > > > What do you others think? > > I think that if you create a -newbies, a significant portion of > the questions that currently go to -questions will go to -newbies. > Why? If I were a newbie, and I had a problem, I would go "Oh, > a newbie list! I'll ask there!". So I think it would get significant > traffic. For this reason, it would be impossible for Sue to > formally moderate it in any way.. That would at least be my logic... albeit that is sometimes broken... :) > I think a -newbies wouldn't necessairly be bad (in this statement > I'm admitting that my initial reaction was: yeah, right..). It > might direct the truly simple questions away from -questions, > which might in turn become the generic questions list for everyone. > > Right now, if it's a newbie question, it goes to -questions. If the > question is moderately advanced, it goes to -hackers when it should > really go to -questions IMHO. So I guess I'm saying that adding > a -newbies list might help successfully 3-tier the lists into > something a little more logical. Maybe not.. I think that is somewhat of an ideal situation. I think this could also tend to run into the same overlap problems that Greg mentions on his web page. (http://www.lemis.com/questions.html) That bieng too generic questions for -newbies, and overly technical questions for -questions. // end and sigs snipped James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:43:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29370 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29353 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:42:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA12940; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:42:31 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301174227.32842@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:42:27 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301170435.11729@welearn.com.au> <19980301165754.16454@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980301165754.16454@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:57:54PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:57:54PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:04:35 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > DO I BELONG HERE? > > > > Try this quick quiz: > > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? > > Hmm. I've seen your .sig before, but I don't think this is much of a > criterion. True :-) > > 2. Have you ever done something incredibly stupid? > > And this would definitely make me eligible :-) But would I believe you? :-) > > If you answered no to the first and yes to the second, you'll be OK. > > How about: > > 1. Are you having such general difficulties with FreeBSD that you > don't even know what the problem is? > > 2. Are you worried that you can't express the problem well enough to > get a useful answer from -questions? Much better. > I suppose it's a start. The shortcomings will become evident in the > course of time, I suppose. > > What do you say we ask on -questions? They'll laugh and say it's stupid... but what else is new. It'd be good to ask newbies what they think of it, but how do we reach them? They're a bit scarce on -questions. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:45:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00373 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:45:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00368 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:45:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA06461; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:15:36 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA04688; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:15:36 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980301171535.07458@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:15:36 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301170435.11729@welearn.com.au> <19980301165754.16454@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301174227.32842@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980301174227.32842@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 05:42:27PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:42:27 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:57:54PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:04:35 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: >>> 2. Have you ever done something incredibly stupid? >> >> And this would definitely make me eligible :-) > > But would I believe you? :-) Sure, if I could get myself to repeat the painful stories. >> I suppose it's a start. The shortcomings will become evident in the >> course of time, I suppose. >> >> What do you say we ask on -questions? > > They'll laugh and say it's stupid... but what else is new. Some would. I'd be interested to hear how many wouldn't. > It'd be good to ask newbies what they think of it, but how do we > reach them? They're a bit scarce on -questions. I'd guess they're lurking. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:55:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01096 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:55:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01083; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:55:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24327; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:04:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980301020451.35068@vmunix.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:04:51 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: zjhh2@etsu.edu Cc: Greg Lehey , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301011318.06574@vmunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from James on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:29:41AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:29:41AM -0500, James wrote: > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Mark Mayo wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:14:07PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: You know this will be a hot topic when you see something like this above. And all in a few hours :-) > > > > [See the thread for the rest of the discussion :)] > > > > I think a -newbies wouldn't necessairly be bad (in this statement > > I'm admitting that my initial reaction was: yeah, right..). It > > might direct the truly simple questions away from -questions, > > which might in turn become the generic questions list for everyone. > > > > Right now, if it's a newbie question, it goes to -questions. If the > > question is moderately advanced, it goes to -hackers when it should > > really go to -questions IMHO. So I guess I'm saying that adding > > a -newbies list might help successfully 3-tier the lists into > > something a little more logical. Maybe not.. > > I think that is somewhat of an ideal situation. I think this could also > tend to run into the same overlap problems that Greg mentions on his web > page. (http://www.lemis.com/questions.html) Most certaily an ideal situation, but since things are far from ideal right now, I think giving it a shot and seeing how it turns out is really the only way to know if adding a -newbies would improve the situation. > > That bieng too generic questions for -newbies, and overly technical > questions for -questions. IMO, no question is too technical for -questions. I prefer to interpret the -questions name as meaning "any questions you might have about the operations of FreeBSD go here". So almost anything is fair game for -questions. -hackers should be reserved for hackers (i.e. code, kernel *source* questions and such). -Mark > > James -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 22:57:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01367 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:57:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01352; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:57:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA12991; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:56:49 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301175646.54027@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:56:47 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: zjhh2@etsu.edu Cc: Mark Mayo , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301011318.06574@vmunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from James on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:29:41AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:29:41AM -0500, James wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Mark Mayo wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:14:07PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > [See the thread for the rest of the discussion :)] > > > > > What do you others think? > > > > I think that if you create a -newbies, a significant portion of > > the questions that currently go to -questions will go to -newbies. > > Why? If I were a newbie, and I had a problem, I would go "Oh, > > a newbie list! I'll ask there!". So I think it would get significant > > traffic. For this reason, it would be impossible for Sue to > > formally moderate it in any way.. > > That would at least be my logic... albeit that is sometimes broken... :) I don't have much knowledge, I don't have much computer power, sometimes not much time, but I do have determination and no shame. If the idea stands up, and if it's not going to interfere with the good work that others are doing, and if it is to be public and not just a few of my friends, and if I'm involved as more than a participant, and if it is to succeed, then I will need to enlist all kinds of support. That's an awful lot of ifs away. There are still several alternatives that could be considered. > I think that is somewhat of an ideal situation. I think this could also > tend to run into the same overlap problems that Greg mentions on his web > page. (http://www.lemis.com/questions.html) > > That bieng too generic questions for -newbies, and overly technical > questions for -questions. I wasn't thinking of a place to get answers. There's a great deal more to being a newbie than having questions. I was thinking more of a place to just be for a while with real peers, to let off steam and get things into perspective. One problem that will arise is people trying to answer other people's questions. That cannot be stopped, but the focus can put it into perspective. Of course, this relates to just one idea of what a newbies' list might be. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:05:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02505 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:05:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02487; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA06494; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:34:33 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA04806; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:34:32 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980301173432.42499@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:34:32 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake , zjhh2@etsu.edu Cc: Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301011318.06574@vmunix.com> <19980301175646.54027@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980301175646.54027@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 05:56:47PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:56:47 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > I wasn't thinking of a place to get answers. There's a great deal more to > being a newbie than having questions. I was thinking more of a place to just > be for a while with real peers, to let off steam and get things into > perspective. One problem that will arise is people trying to answer other > people's questions. That cannot be stopped, but the focus can put it into > perspective. I think you need to say this in the charter, then. > Of course, this relates to just one idea of what a newbies' list might be. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. I think the more experienced people should also be asked to shut up and not participate (though they could be allowed to lurk). Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:16:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05137 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:16:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pimout1-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.18.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05124; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:16:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA27626; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:14:32 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:14:27 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Mark Mayo cc: zjhh2@Access.ETSU.Edu, Greg Lehey , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net, mark@vnode.vmunix.com Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301020451.35068@vmunix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Mark Mayo wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:29:41AM -0500, James wrote: > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Mark Mayo wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:14:07PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > You know this will be a hot topic when you see something like > this above. And all in a few hours :-) Yeah really... > > > > > > > [See the thread for the rest of the discussion :)] > > > > > > I think a -newbies wouldn't necessairly be bad (in this statement > > > I'm admitting that my initial reaction was: yeah, right..). It > > > might direct the truly simple questions away from -questions, > > > which might in turn become the generic questions list for everyone. > > > > > > Right now, if it's a newbie question, it goes to -questions. If the > > > question is moderately advanced, it goes to -hackers when it should > > > really go to -questions IMHO. So I guess I'm saying that adding > > > a -newbies list might help successfully 3-tier the lists into > > > something a little more logical. Maybe not.. > > > > I think that is somewhat of an ideal situation. I think this could also > > tend to run into the same overlap problems that Greg mentions on his web > > page. (http://www.lemis.com/questions.html) > > Most certaily an ideal situation, but since things are far from > ideal right now, I think giving it a shot and seeing how it turns > out is really the only way to know if adding a -newbies would > improve the situation. I may regret this statement later, but nothing is ever lost in trying... :) > > > > That bieng too generic questions for -newbies, and overly technical > > questions for -questions. > > IMO, no question is too technical for -questions. I prefer to > interpret the -questions name as meaning "any questions you might > have about the operations of FreeBSD go here". So almost anything > is fair game for -questions. -hackers should be reserved for > hackers (i.e. code, kernel *source* questions and such). Yeah, but shouldn't kernel development questions be directed at -hackers not -questions? That was what I meant by overly technical for -questions. I guess I should have clarified. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com > RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark > > finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs > at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling > James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:20:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05842 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:20:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05769; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA13057; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:19:33 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301181929.41719@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:19:29 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: zjhh2@etsu.edu, Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301011318.06574@vmunix.com> <19980301175646.54027@welearn.com.au> <19980301173432.42499@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980301173432.42499@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 05:34:32PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 05:34:32PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:56:47 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > I wasn't thinking of a place to get answers. There's a great deal more to > > being a newbie than having questions. I was thinking more of a place to just > > be for a while with real peers, to let off steam and get things into > > perspective. One problem that will arise is people trying to answer other > > people's questions. That cannot be stopped, but the focus can put it into > > perspective. > > I think you need to say this in the charter, then. Yeah, maybe it would be more usefully presented as a newbies chat list, so as to avoid reliance on it for answers and to invite chat. > > Of course, this relates to just one idea of what a newbies' list might be. > > It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. I think the more > experienced people should also be asked to shut up and not participate > (though they could be allowed to lurk). Hmm, I'm thinking that it's easier to communicate in a space that you own (as a newbie) rather than one where you're a guest, and a few too clever people could take that feeling away. That is, assuming it is not going to be primarily a place to get questions answered. Of course, there's nothing stopping any lurkers with good answers from sneakily replying off the list, just as I have been doing for some of the misunderstood newbies. If the list were for asking questions, then those who can and will answer questions would have yet another mailing list to monitor which might be asking too much. The existing -questions traffic would not be spread over the two lists. I predict that there's a lot more questions out there that never get asked. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:22:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06740 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:22:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1y-int.prodigy.net (mail1y-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.19.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA06730; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:22:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by mail1y-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA46576; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:18:40 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:18:38 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: Sue Blake , zjhh2@etsu.edu, Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301173432.42499@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:56:47 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > I wasn't thinking of a place to get answers. There's a great deal more to > > being a newbie than having questions. I was thinking more of a place to just > > be for a while with real peers, to let off steam and get things into > > perspective. One problem that will arise is people trying to answer other > > people's questions. That cannot be stopped, but the focus can put it into > > perspective. > > I think you need to say this in the charter, then. Definitely. > > > Of course, this relates to just one idea of what a newbies' list might be. > > It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. I think the more > experienced people should also be asked to shut up and not participate > (though they could be allowed to lurk). Also for easy expert opinions should questions arise. Nothing wrong with a friendly experienced person adding to traffic as long as the focus is clearly directed towards newbies. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:34:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07726 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07713; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:34:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA13102; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:33:54 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301183351.42354@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:33:51 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: zjhh2@etsu.edu Cc: Greg Lehey , Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301173432.42499@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from James on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 02:18:38AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 02:18:38AM -0500, James wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:56:47 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > > I wasn't thinking of a place to get answers. There's a great deal more to > > > being a newbie than having questions. I was thinking more of a place to just > > > be for a while with real peers, to let off steam and get things into > > > perspective. One problem that will arise is people trying to answer other > > > people's questions. That cannot be stopped, but the focus can put it into > > > perspective. > > > > I think you need to say this in the charter, then. > > Definitely. But do you like the sound of that approach or not? > > > Of course, this relates to just one idea of what a newbies' list might be. > > > > It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. I think the more > > experienced people should also be asked to shut up and not participate > > (though they could be allowed to lurk). > > Also for easy expert opinions should questions arise. Nothing wrong with > a friendly experienced person adding to traffic as long as the focus is > clearly directed towards newbies. Yes... but it depends. Say Joe Bloggs knows a lot and answers really well and hangs around the new list, and more experienced Joe Bloggs fans come over and start asking about all sorts of hairy things. Asking them to go elsewhere would make some newbies fear for their own welcome, and reduce the level of support from something everyone had become accustomed to. Any kind of newbie list would be an improvement, IMO. It'd be nice if some of the outcomes included newbies feeling that they're not alone, that at least for a time they can't do anything that won't be forgiven, and that even as newbies they might be able to ease the path for someone else. I can live without all that, but I'd rather not. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:42:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09772 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:42:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA09729; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:42:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id SAA04574; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:43:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803010743.SAA04574@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301181929.41719@welearn.com.au> from Sue Blake at "Mar 1, 98 06:19:29 pm" To: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:43:54 +1100 (EST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, zjhh2@etsu.edu, mark@vmunix.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > Yeah, maybe it would be more usefully presented as a newbies chat list, > so as to avoid reliance on it for answers and to invite chat. So now you've talked your way around to this list. Why not just use it? > Hmm, I'm thinking that it's easier to communicate in a space that you own > (as a newbie) rather than one where you're a guest, and a few too clever > people could take that feeling away. Then you'll need to host your own list and invite others to post to it. If you can do that, then you're probably no longer a newbie so you might have to stop using your own list. 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:50:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11230 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:50:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11224 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:50:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06541; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:20:31 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA04999; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:20:31 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980301182030.14942@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:20:30 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: zjhh2@etsu.edu Cc: Sue Blake , Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301173432.42499@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from James on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 02:18:38AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 2:18:38 -0500, James wrote: > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:56:47 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: >>> Of course, this relates to just one idea of what a newbies' list might be. >> >> It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. I think the more >> experienced people should also be asked to shut up and not participate >> (though they could be allowed to lurk). > > Also for easy expert opinions should questions arise. Nothing wrong with > a friendly experienced person adding to traffic as long as the focus is > clearly directed towards newbies. Hmmm. I see part of the raison d'être of this group as being a place where the newbies can discuss amongst themselves. They know they can get help from -questions if that's what they want. On the other hand, I suppose, something should be done to avoid incorrect information being passed around, but that should be done as gently as possible. I don't think any other kind of unsolicted answer should come from those "in the know". Sue, as long as you haven't lost interest, could you maybe be the medium for dissemination of such corrections? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:54:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11580 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:54:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11574; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:54:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06545; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:24:23 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA05015; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:24:22 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980301182422.45428@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:24:22 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: zjhh2@etsu.edu, Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301011318.06574@vmunix.com> <19980301175646.54027@welearn.com.au> <19980301173432.42499@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301181929.41719@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980301181929.41719@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 06:19:29PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 18:19:29 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 05:34:32PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:56:47 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: >>> >>> I wasn't thinking of a place to get answers. There's a great deal more to >>> being a newbie than having questions. I was thinking more of a place to just >>> be for a while with real peers, to let off steam and get things into >>> perspective. One problem that will arise is people trying to answer other >>> people's questions. That cannot be stopped, but the focus can put it into >>> perspective. >> >> I think you need to say this in the charter, then. > > Yeah, maybe it would be more usefully presented as a newbies chat list, > so as to avoid reliance on it for answers and to invite chat. This sounds like a very good idea! >>> Of course, this relates to just one idea of what a newbies' list might be. >> >> It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. I think the more >> experienced people should also be asked to shut up and not participate >> (though they could be allowed to lurk). > > Hmm, I'm thinking that it's easier to communicate in a space that you own > (as a newbie) rather than one where you're a guest, and a few too clever > people could take that feeling away. That is, assuming it is not going to be > primarily a place to get questions answered. Of course, there's nothing > stopping any lurkers with good answers from sneakily replying off the list, > just as I have been doing for some of the misunderstood newbies. > > If the list were for asking questions, then those who can and will answer > questions would have yet another mailing list to monitor which might be > asking too much. The existing -questions traffic would not be spread over > the two lists. I predict that there's a lot more questions out there that > never get asked. I think this is reasonable, too. -questions is and remains the list for specific questions. -newbie could be more a discussion group for people new to FreeBSD. It's always good to be able to distinguish the charters, and this looks like the best distinction I've seen so far. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:55:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11765 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:55:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1y-int.prodigy.net (mail1y-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.19.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11759; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:55:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by mail1y-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA98422; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:52:55 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:52:54 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Sue Blake cc: zjhh2@Access.ETSU.Edu, Greg Lehey , Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net, sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301183351.42354@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 02:18:38AM -0500, James wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 17:56:47 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > > > > I wasn't thinking of a place to get answers. There's a great deal more to > > > > being a newbie than having questions. I was thinking more of a place to just > > > > be for a while with real peers, to let off steam and get things into > > > > perspective. One problem that will arise is people trying to answer other > > > > people's questions. That cannot be stopped, but the focus can put it into > > > > perspective. > > > > > > I think you need to say this in the charter, then. > > > > Definitely. > > But do you like the sound of that approach or not? That sounds like a good approach. It also accomplishes something very importatnt and that is just getting the new lurkers out of the dark and talking on the lists. Once that is achieved the rest of the lists cantake over. I think that is the big underlying problem. I have posted more in the last couple of hours than I have ever. I think if you can accomplish that and get good discussion going you will kill fears of posting and achieve the bigger goal of people being helped with their problems. (well pertinent problems anyway.. :) ) > > > > Of course, this relates to just one idea of what a newbies' list might be. > > > > > > It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. I think the more > > > experienced people should also be asked to shut up and not participate > > > (though they could be allowed to lurk). > > > > Also for easy expert opinions should questions arise. Nothing wrong with > > a friendly experienced person adding to traffic as long as the focus is > > clearly directed towards newbies. > > Yes... but it depends. Say Joe Bloggs knows a lot and answers really well > and hangs around the new list, and more experienced Joe Bloggs fans come > over and start asking about all sorts of hairy things. Asking them to go > elsewhere would make some newbies fear for their own welcome, and reduce the > level of support from something everyone had become accustomed to. Yeah that Joe Bloggs guy is brilliant or something...... There will be no way you can totally prevent overlap, or even a few technical questions. > Any kind of newbie list would be an improvement, IMO. It'd be nice if some > of the outcomes included newbies feeling that they're not alone, that at > least for a time they can't do anything that won't be forgiven, and that Exactly, I think that should be what a newbie list is. Create an area open to free discussion where occasioal "dumb" questions can be asked with no bad feelings. > even as newbies they might be able to ease the path for someone else. I can > live without all that, but I'd rather not. Welcome to FreeBSD-NewbieAdvocacy.. :) James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 28 23:57:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12011 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:57:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA12004; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:57:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06552; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:27:07 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA05039; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:27:06 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980301182706.49851@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:27:06 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: John Birrell , Sue Blake Cc: zjhh2@etsu.edu, mark@vmunix.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301181929.41719@welearn.com.au> <199803010743.SAA04574@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803010743.SAA04574@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 06:43:54PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 18:43:54 +1100, John Birrell wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: >> Yeah, maybe it would be more usefully presented as a newbies chat list, >> so as to avoid reliance on it for answers and to invite chat. > > So now you've talked your way around to this list. Why not just use it? No! This list is for people who know FreeBSD. Sure, it's chat, but it's a different kind of discussion. I don't think most of the regulars here would like to get involved in endless discussions about why you can't download a floppy with Netscrape. >> Hmm, I'm thinking that it's easier to communicate in a space that you own >> (as a newbie) rather than one where you're a guest, and a few too clever >> people could take that feeling away. > > Then you'll need to host your own list and invite others to post to it. > If you can do that, then you're probably no longer a newbie so you > might have to stop using your own list. 8-) Well, I have my doubts about Sue's claim to being a newbie, too, but maybe we should put her in the category of "experienced newbie". But if this idea is going to fly, it should fly the FreeBSD flag. Jonathan, are you listening? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message