From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 11:24:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27818 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:24:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27806 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:24:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22232 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:24:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803081924.LAA22232@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD in the Press Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 11:24:23 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Sunday edition, March 8, 1998, of the San Francisco Examiner Newspaper's Business section has a nice article on Microsoft . "The same top executives already monopolize the media with their PR-generated, carefully scripted pap. And while they spew about customer-driven product choices that are based on price and quality, one wonders if these executives have ever tried to keep an NT box from crashing or they have ever tried superior operating systems like FreeBSD, OS/2 and Linux." Perhaps someone should send a nice article about FreeBSD to Rebecca L. Eisenberg , mars@well.com. She appears to be a mean, lean critical journalist. Have Fun, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 11:38:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29520 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29494 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:38:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26910; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:49:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980308144918.13511@vmunix.com> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:49:18 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: Amancio Hasty , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the Press References: <199803081924.LAA22232@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199803081924.LAA22232@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, Mar 08, 1998 at 11:24:23AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 08, 1998 at 11:24:23AM -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > The Sunday edition, March 8, 1998, of the San Francisco Examiner > Newspaper's Business section has a nice article on Microsoft . > "The same top executives already monopolize the media with their PR-generated, > carefully scripted pap. And while they spew about customer-driven product > choices that are based on price and quality, one wonders if these executives > have ever tried to keep an NT box from crashing or they have ever tried > superior operating systems like FreeBSD, OS/2 and Linux." Cool. :-) > > Perhaps someone should send a nice article about FreeBSD to > Rebecca L. Eisenberg , mars@well.com. She appears to be a mean, lean > critical journalist. Indeed. I'd also like to compile a list of impressive and/or interesting things that people are doing with FreeBSD. Mike Smith and I talked briefly once about the fact that FreeBSD machines are powering systems in the remote corners of the earth - it would be nice if we could do a nice article or simple summary with lots of neat stories on it. I could fire off a little app to collect he "entries".. of course, I also have to finish the project database first (if only my monitor hadn't just blown-up... sigh..). -Mark > > Have Fun, > Amancio > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 12:47:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10364 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:47:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10354 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22795; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:47:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803082047.MAA22795@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Mark Mayo cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the Press In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Mar 1998 14:49:18 EST." <19980308144918.13511@vmunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 12:47:25 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Maybe we can convince one of the ISPs to produce a FreeBSD Technology news similar or as attractive as : http://www.sfgate.com/ Hopefully, Rebecca's article will appear tomorrow at the web site. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 13:08:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12506 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12482 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:07:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22905 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:07:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803082107.NAA22905@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 to: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the Press In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Mar 1998 12:47:37 PST." <199803082047.MAA12954@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 13:07:47 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oops, gross omission on my part: Sean Eric Fagan was quoted: "Monopolies, in general, are bad for innovation, said Sean Eric Fagan, 30, a San Jose programmer who has worked as a professional coder for 12 years. "They spur some innovations at the beginning, where there is still a chance that someone else can into the market, and at the end, when someone does break in. In between, however, monopolies discourage other from trying. Microsoft is no exception." There is some innovation in the computer in the computer world, Fagan said, but because of Microsoft, "Joe Q. Public has almost no chance of ever seeing an improved operating system." As for Gate's repeated characterization of Microsoft as innovator -- "the main way Microsoft "help" innovation is, if it sees a competitor doing something that people like, it either buys the competitor or else just puts the same feature(s) into its own product." The result hardly innovates. "By virtue of its size and market dominance, Microsoft can offer a more limited , buggy or less satisfactory implementation of the feature and still end up pushing the competitor out of business," Fagan's sentiments are common, if not understated...." ------- So just get off your lazy butts and setup a cool FreeBSD Technology Web Page. Who knows cool writers like Eric may get world wide attention . Perhaps we can get the people to rally behind us by writing a nice newspaper article with themes similar to : Why Uncle FreeBSD wants your dollar, Freeing The Future of Cyberspace, You Can Make A Difference!!. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 13:23:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14200 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:23:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (daisy26.verinet.com [199.45.181.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14192 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:23:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28011 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:23:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:23:51 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199803082123.OAA28011@const.> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PC X Servers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am seeking recommendations for PC X servers that others have had experience with. Although I wish to run X, all of my best display hardware is on a windows box. My own research seem to point towards PC-Xware as being the best choice, but I have only had experience with Exceed. The voice of experience it welcome. Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 18:27:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25686 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:27:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25667; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:27:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA20364; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:26:50 -0500 (EST) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199803090226.VAA20364@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: OS-BS from FreeBSD To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:26:49 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Re: installing OS-BS from FreeBSD... A wierd (very) idea just came to me... While running the DOS emulation it may be possible to run the OS-BS installation -- if so, it may work with the FreeDOS clone, or perhaps Caldera would allow DR-DOS 7 to be shipped with FreeBSD. (Perhaps free or at a nominal cost?) Does this sound reasonable to consider investigating. The main problem with the PC emulation is it requires X11 working which won't fit with the current installation software. It would be quite interesting if we could ship the same (actually newer) dos with FreeBSD that ships with UnixWare! Any new info on dos emulation in Version 3.x -- I'm still on -STABLE. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | This message brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 18:40:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28678 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:40:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28655 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:40:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA25433 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:39:47 -0500 (EST) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199803090239.VAA25433@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: FreeBSD Users Group -- Trenton Computer Festival To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:39:47 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Re: FreeBSD Users Group -- New York. I'm in Central New Jersey... perhaps a BOF get together at the Trenton Computer Festival may be doable. Any other FreeBSD'ers going to the Trenton event. http://www.dorsai.org/fair Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 18:44:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29316 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:44:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29310; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:44:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA24820; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:43:21 -0800 (PST) To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS-BS from FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Mar 1998 21:26:49 EST." <199803090226.VAA20364@shell.monmouth.com> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 18:43:21 -0800 Message-ID: <24817.889411401@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > While running the DOS emulation it may be possible to run the OS-BS > installation -- if so, it may work with the FreeDOS clone, or perhaps > Caldera would allow DR-DOS 7 to be shipped with FreeBSD. (Perhaps free > or at a nominal cost?) Wouldn't help me with 2.2, where there's no DOS emulation. :( I also think it would be very difficult to get all that working in an installation scenario - the dos emulator requires quite a bit of setup. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 19:26:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10666 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:26:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10510; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:25:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA25103; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:24:33 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Karl Denninger , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 1998 03:04:36 GMT." <35045a62.136823612@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:24:33 -0800 Message-ID: <25099.889413873@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sun, 08 Mar 1998 18:42:03 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" > wrote: > > >> It's amazing how some of the same people who decry commercializing > >> FreeBSD with donor control of funding have no objection to Kirk's > >> commercial hooks. > >>=20 > >> Score 1 for the GPL. > > > >If either of you start this shit up again I'll have you both off the > >mailing lists and banned from posting faster than you can say "cheese". > > > >First and only warning. > > > > Jordan > > Apparently you don't condone the idea of freedom of speech. Or > perhaps you just don't like me personally. But if you boot me out, > who will be next? Where will it stop? I condone freedom of speech IN THE PROPER FORUM. And no, I don't like you personally, I think you're a big wanker actually, but that still doesn't effect my wanting to avoid a repetition of your former foolishness in the mailing lists and THIS SHOULD GO TO CHAT, NOT CURRENT. What part of this very simple rule do you not understand? And booting you out would be a blessing in any case since you do nothing to contribute to this effort. It would also stop of its own accord when all the other useless bastards were booted out, not that I or anyone else has much hope of fulfulling such a promising yet unattainable goal. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 19:33:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12443 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:33:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12396 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:33:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA24965; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:03:13 -0800 (PST) To: Jason Young cc: John Kelly , Karl Denninger , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Mar 1998 20:38:09 CST." Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:03:13 -0800 Message-ID: <24962.889412593@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I should probably know better than to get involved in a BSD - GPL > licensing debate but that above statement "Score 1 for the GPL" was just > too dumb to leave unanswered, I'm sorry. The fact that there's some More importantly, it's starting up a whole new thread of irrelevant licensing chatter in -current and we just got done with lots of irrelevant chatter in -current which I do NOT want to see again. Both John Kelly and Karl have been warned in the strongest possible terms that another debate of that nature in -current will not be tolerated and if they want to discuss this then they're more than free to do so in *** -CHAT ***, where this thread has now been redirected but doing so inappropriately in -current will get them thrown right off the mailing lists. Any patience I might have had was well worn out by that last stupid exchange. If we'd also taken some bogusly licensed code into -current then I might be able to see it as a subject for discussion in -current, but we have not. The licensed item in question is purely a user add-on and subject to user approval - nobody's getting a poison pill simply as a result of cvsuping the latest bits. I also note with annoyance Karl's usual suggestion that "somebody" rewrite it, conveniently stepping into the background afterwards to wait for someone to exert their efforts in order to increase his profit margins. He suggests that he'd donate money if he got a vote of some sort, but the reality of the situation is much more likely that he'd sooner part with his own life than spend a penny on anyone but Karl Denninger, and the whole "vote" thing is just a convenient smoke screen to justify the fact that he's made money off of FreeBSD for years now and never had the slightest inclination to give anything (but lots of grief, it appears) back. Scrooge McDuck would probably stand in deep admiration of Karl's fiscal policies, that's for sure. Bah. You give some people the shirt off your bank and they'll thank you. Others, however, will point to your shoes and demand those also. It's enough to make you wish they'd dropped the bomb, though I suppose that if it's possible for cockroaches to survive then those folks will also. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 19:44:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14002 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:44:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13929; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:44:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18600; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:44:12 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 03:46:08 GMT Message-ID: <35076247.138842490@mail.cetlink.net> References: <25099.889413873@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <25099.889413873@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA13963 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:24:33 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >I condone freedom of speech IN THE PROPER FORUM. Redirecting this thread to -chat seems like a reasonable request. >And no, I don't like you personally It's good to know where I stand. >I think you're a big wanker What's a wanker? I couldn't find it in my dictionary. >And booting you out would be a blessing in any case since you do >nothing to contribute to this effort. You're quick to make final judgement. Do you think everyone capable or writing code is going to start flinging bits at you within a very short time of developing an interest in FreeBSD? >It would also stop of its own accord when all the other useless >bastards were booted out, not that I or anyone else has much hope >of fulfulling such a promising yet unattainable goal. :-) > > Jordan I wonder how long FreeBSD will keep flying with your type of attitude in the pilot's seat. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 19:53:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15074 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:53:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15061 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:53:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26230; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803090352.TAA26230@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Karl Denninger , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 1998 02:14:48 GMT." <35034f2e.134015736@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 19:52:58 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Even though English is my second language I seem to understand the meaning of Freedom and seem to posses the great ability of not having a binary intelligence . Amancio > On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:11:11 -0600, Karl Denninger > wrote: > > >According to Kirk, if someone wants to use it in a "Production ISP System" > >(to cite one of his examples) they need to negotiate a license from him. > > > >To use a single word Kirk: NO. > > >That's nothing short of incredible, if you ask me. > > It's amazing how some of the same people who decry commercializing > FreeBSD with donor control of funding have no objection to Kirk's > commercial hooks. > > Score 1 for the GPL. > > -- > Browser war over, Mozilla now free. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 20:31:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21405 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:31:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21392 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:31:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09822; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:31:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd009793; Sun Mar 8 21:31:36 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA19667; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:31:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803090431.VAA19667@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:31:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu, dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803090400.UAA26260@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Mar 8, 98 08:00:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > If you watched any of the hearings on C-SPAN, or saw Bill on Charlie > > Rose that night, trying to spin the monopoly issue, you'd think that > > maybe Bill himself would support an effort. ;-). > > I didn't watch the C-span event however I did hear it via real-audio, > using -current, linux real-audio, and voxware 3.5 8) > My 2cents it was a "cute" hearing -- Senate to the public: > You see taxpayers we held a hearing on the so called Microsoft Monopoly > we have done our job! This belong on chat now... My take-home was a bit different. I especially liked the part where the senator said "Thank You for your testimony, Mr. Gates, and I'm sure that as these hearings progress over the next several weeks, this committe will enjoy hearing from you again". I'm paraphrasing here. It seemed more like "We don't like your answers, so we're going to take up a lot of your time reasking the questions until we do". 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 20:51:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25344 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terror.hungry.com ([199.181.107.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25307 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:51:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fn@Hungry.COM) Received: (from fn@localhost) by terror.hungry.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id UAA12430; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:50:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:50:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803090450.UAA12430@terror.hungry.com> From: Faried Nawaz To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: fyi. X-forwarded: t Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I forwarded Amancio's message to rle, and received: Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:26:40 -0800 To: Faried Nawaz From: "rebecca l. eisenberg" Hey thanks for forwarding this, Faried! I'm not sure what Amancio is saying ... is he saying that FreeBSD is much worse than I suggested? (I do like the "man, lean critical" line, though.) I would _love_ to write about FreeBSD, in particular because I love the notion of user-improved freely distributed software. Sadly, I know so little about FreeBSD beyond what I hear on fnet/icb. I would greatly appreciate your passing on to the mailing list that I would love to hear comments, complaints, ideas, rants, corrections and/or column ideas of any nature. As they say, a journalist is only as good as her sources. Thanks so much, and I hope you are well. All my best, rle At 4:12 PM -0800 3/8/98, Faried Nawaz wrote: >From: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) >Subject: FreeBSD in the Press >Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat >Date: 8 Mar 1998 11:25:33 -0800 > > >The Sunday edition, March 8, 1998, of the San Francisco Examiner >Newspaper's Business section has a nice article on Microsoft . >"The same top executives already monopolize the media with their PR-generated, >carefully scripted pap. And while they spew about customer-driven product >choices that are based on price and quality, one wonders if these executives >have ever tried to keep an NT box from crashing or they have ever tried >superior operating systems like FreeBSD, OS/2 and Linux." > >Perhaps someone should send a nice article about FreeBSD to >Rebecca L. Eisenberg , mars@well.com. She appears to be a mean, lean >critical journalist. > > Have Fun, > Amancio > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message "It's a lizard. Next, please!" ..... another dissatisfied customer in SkinkTown http://www.bossanova.com/rebeca/clips . r e b e c c a . l y n n . e i s e n b e r g . mars@well.com, mars@bossanova.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 21:16:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29793 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:16:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29783 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:16:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-64.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.64]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA179374; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:16:43 GMT Message-ID: <35037B26.738ED8DC@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 21:16:22 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the Press References: <199803082107.NAA22905@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Amancio - > Sean Eric Fagan was quoted: SEF is definitely biased in the right direction. I just received Dr. Dobb's Journal for March and it contains "Tracing BSD System Calls", with a bright little color picture on the first page that shrieks 'FreeBSD'!!! Kudos to Sean Eric for his work in multiple directions to all our benefit, and it was a seriously good article, too. =--> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 22:20:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12254 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:20:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (dynamic57.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12246 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA15761; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:20:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980308222016.16148@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:20:16 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199803090400.UAA26260@rah.star-gate.com> <199803090431.VAA19667@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199803090431.VAA19667@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 04:31:31AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 04:31:31AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > If you watched any of the hearings on C-SPAN, or saw Bill on Charlie > > > Rose that night, trying to spin the monopoly issue, you'd think that > > > maybe Bill himself would support an effort. ;-). > > > > I didn't watch the C-span event however I did hear it via real-audio, > > using -current, linux real-audio, and voxware 3.5 8) > > My 2cents it was a "cute" hearing -- Senate to the public: > > You see taxpayers we held a hearing on the so called Microsoft Monopoly > > we have done our job! > > This belong on chat now... > > My take-home was a bit different. I especially liked the part > where the senator said "Thank You for your testimony, Mr. Gates, > and I'm sure that as these hearings progress over the next several > weeks, this committe will enjoy hearing from you again". I'm > paraphrasing here. > > It seemed more like "We don't like your answers, so we're going to > take up a lot of your time reasking the questions until we do". > That is until Billy makes a donation to their re-election champain and Scott McNealy and Jim Barksdale suddenly find themselves being deported. Bill Gates talking to congress is like waving hundred dollar bills in front of street walkers. The politicians that took care of Carnegie, Rockefeller and Morgan are dead and gone and have been replaced by spineless prostitutes. They are not going to do anything about the monopoly that Micro$oft has become. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 22:29:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14038 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:29:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (dynamic57.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13973 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:29:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA15793; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:28:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980308222858.05345@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:28:58 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Faried Nawaz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fyi. Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199803090450.UAA12430@terror.hungry.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199803090450.UAA12430@terror.hungry.com>; from Faried Nawaz on Sun, Mar 08, 1998 at 08:50:33PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 08, 1998 at 08:50:33PM -0800, Faried Nawaz wrote: > > I forwarded Amancio's message to rle, and received: > > > Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:26:40 -0800 > To: Faried Nawaz > From: "rebecca l. eisenberg" > > Hey thanks for forwarding this, Faried! > > I'm not sure what Amancio is saying ... is he saying that FreeBSD is much > worse than I suggested? (I do like the "man, lean critical" line, though.) > > I would _love_ to write about FreeBSD, in particular because I love the > notion of user-improved freely distributed software. Sadly, I know so > little about FreeBSD beyond what I hear on fnet/icb. > > I would greatly appreciate your passing on to the mailing list that I would > love to hear comments, complaints, ideas, rants, corrections and/or column > ideas of any nature. As they say, a journalist is only as good as her > sources. > > Thanks so much, and I hope you are well. > > All my best, > rle > Why don't we, the Bay Area FreeBSD community, set her up with a FreeBSD machine to test drive for a few weeks. I can donate some parts to cobble together a box. My could use a friend in the Journalism community. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 23:23:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22662 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:23:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22654; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:23:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA26116; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:22:39 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 1998 03:46:08 GMT." <35076247.138842490@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 23:22:39 -0800 Message-ID: <26112.889428159@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I condone freedom of speech IN THE PROPER FORUM. > > Redirecting this thread to -chat seems like a reasonable request. Odd that you chose to ignore it on every previous occasion. Only after it's too late in your particular case do you suddenly suffer an attack of reasonableness. Horses, barn doors, etc. etc. > I wonder how long FreeBSD will keep flying with your type of attitude > in the pilot's seat. My attitude has remained consistent for 4 years (don't suffer fools gladly) and it seems to be doing very nicely so far, in spite of some stiff competition. Also, for what it's worth, I'm not the pilot and I resigned anything even resembling such a position over a year ago. I'm also not "king", as some have suggested, and I'm not even the general secretary of our little core team politburo. I'm merely one of the project's founders and the current release coordinator, a thankless job which I appear to do well enough that nobody else seems to be clamoring for it. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 23:32:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25849 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:32:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25764; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:32:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id AAA17057; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:32:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA12328; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:30:24 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:30:23 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-Reply-To: <24962.889412593@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I should probably know better than to get involved in a BSD - GPL > > licensing debate but that above statement "Score 1 for the GPL" was just > > too dumb to leave unanswered, I'm sorry. The fact that there's some > > More importantly, it's starting up a whole new thread of irrelevant > licensing chatter in -current and we just got done with lots of > irrelevant chatter in -current which I do NOT want to see again. > > Both John Kelly and Karl have been warned in the strongest possible > terms that another debate of that nature in -current will not be > tolerated and if they want to discuss this then they're more than free > to do so in *** -CHAT ***, where this thread has now been redirected > but doing so inappropriately in -current will get them thrown right > off the mailing lists. Any patience I might have had was well worn > out by that last stupid exchange. I think Karl's point is valid. I don't care what license Kirk wants to give his code out under. Well, I care but it is completely up to him. I am not a GPL fan, but if someone wants to use it cool. I am a BSD-type license fan, if someone wants to use it cool. If someone wants to impose extra restrictions on his code, fine. However, I am confused about what the licence is. I have read the license that was posted to hackers. It says that anything, including commercial use, is fair game as long as you keep source available to some portion of your system, which may possibly extend to the entire kernel at the most. No? I have also read what Kirk has said. As I recall (although I can't find the message right now), he has said that, for example, an ISP wanting to use a kernel with softupdates would need a licence from him. No? I may have missed clarification of exactly how these two fit together. While I have personal preferences, I have no objection to either. But I would like to know what the story is and what the license actually is and have any misunderstandings that I may have corrected. Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 23:39:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27471 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:39:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27412; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:39:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27858; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:39:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803090739.XAA27858@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Mar 1998 23:22:39 PST." <26112.889428159@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 23:39:27 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, you are the King and guess what we ain't going to let you go 8) As for the release process and to the gang involved, Kudos!! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 8 23:53:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01980 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:53:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01900 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27962; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:52:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803090752.XAA27962@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Marc Slemko cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 1998 00:30:23 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 23:52:49 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The intent of Kirk is to allow hackers or plain users of FreeBSD to use soft updates any commercial entity wishing to profit from it must first strike a deal with Kirk. Is that simple and we have an e-mail from Kirk to that effect. If you are a commercial entity and wish clarification take it up with Kirk and for the rest us (hackers) the code is free to use. Amancio mckusick@McKusick.COM said: > Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:08:38 -0800 > From: Julian Elischer > Organization: Whistle Communications > To: Karl Denninger > CC: hackers@freebsd.org, mckusick@mckusick.com > Subject: Re: kirk's soft-update integration.. > Karl Denninger wrote: > > > > How is this a "poison pill"? > > > > I don't see the problem - FreeBSD, which is what this would go > into, is > > already available in source and object form at no cost or for > the > > reasonable distribution cost (if you buy a CDROM). > > > > > Julian Elischer replied: > > > > the problem is not for freebsd, but ISPs and such who may be > > tempted to use it to put on systems they place at custommer's > > premises. > > > > Whistle has a license, but the GENERIC system as distributed > > probably couldn't have it compiled in. > > > > I myself am not to clear on the terms.. maybe kirk (who is > > CC'd) can give a non-binding "This is what I mean" > interpretation > > for us? It's to whistle's advantage to integrate these changes > > back some time this year, but it's up to each commercial user > > to negotiate with Kirk I guess. > My intent is that the typical FreeBSD user that gets source be able to > use my code. This should cover most of the FreeBSD users. However, > companies like Whistle that want to bundle FreeBSD with a product for > which they do not distribute source code have to work out a license > agreement with me. The goal here is to get commercial companies like > Whistle, BSDI, and Sun to work out a licensing agreement with me while > at the same time allowing me to let the individual non-commercial > users use the code without having to license it. This licensing is > being driven by the fact that I am a self-employed person who needs to > generate a living. While I would love to give all of my code away as I > did for years at UC Berkeley, that is no longer possible. > Kirk McKusick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 00:04:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06030 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:04:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05863; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:03:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA26454; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:02:43 -0800 (PST) To: Amancio Hasty cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Mar 1998 23:39:27 PST." <199803090739.XAA27858@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 00:02:43 -0800 Message-ID: <26450.889430563@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes, you are the King and guess what we ain't going to let you go 8) Oh man, does this mean I have to gain 50 pounds and wear a white jumpsuit with sequins on it now? :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 00:08:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07250 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:08:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6471.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06994; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:07:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA00462; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 03:06:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 03:06:20 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: John Kelly cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-Reply-To: <35076247.138842490@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > >I think you're a big wanker > > What's a wanker? I couldn't find it in my dictionary. With respect to my most recent message in this particular thread, a "wanker" is someone who has no software of their own with which they can (or want to) play; instead, they are forced to write their own software. I think Jordan may have been mistaken in calling you a wanker. > I wonder how long FreeBSD will keep flying with your type of attitude > in the pilot's seat. :-) There is an implicit misunderstanding of how FreeBSD works in the above statement. We are more like an anthill than a plane. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 00:11:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08344 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:11:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08175; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:11:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA26553; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:09:31 -0800 (PST) To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: John Kelly , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 1998 03:06:20 EST." Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 00:09:31 -0800 Message-ID: <26550.889430971@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > With respect to my most recent message in this particular thread, > a "wanker" is someone who has no software of their own with which > they can (or want to) play; instead, they are forced to write > their own software. > > I think Jordan may have been mistaken in calling you a wanker. Good point. I hadn't thought the definition through to its logical conclusion. So if John has no software of his own and cannot write his own software, does that make him then a eunuch? ;-) > There is an implicit misunderstanding of how FreeBSD works in the > above statement. We are more like an anthill than a plane. Or a horde. I like "software horde", but with no Genghis Kahn this time. :) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 00:20:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11656 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:20:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA11541; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:19:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28205; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:19:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803090819.AAA28205@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 1998 00:02:43 PST." <26450.889430563@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 00:19:38 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Yes, you are the King and guess what we ain't going to let you go 8) > > Oh man, does this mean I have to gain 50 pounds and wear a white > jumpsuit with sequins on it now? :-) > > Jordan Not quite, however if you do decide to run we can hunt you down anywhere in the planet for we are everywhere 8) Don't mind me, I just saw a weird movie : Dark City Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 00:24:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12687 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:24:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6471.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12667 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:24:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA00439; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 02:45:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 02:45:09 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: John Kelly cc: Karl Denninger , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-Reply-To: <35034f2e.134015736@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > >According to Kirk, if someone wants to use it in a "Production ISP System" > >(to cite one of his examples) they need to negotiate a license from him. > > > >To use a single word Kirk: NO. > > >That's nothing short of incredible, if you ask me. > > It's amazing how some of the same people who decry commercializing > FreeBSD with donor control of funding have no objection to Kirk's > commercial hooks. FreeBSD is proud to encourage commercial co-operation! We are not fanatasiscts out to change the world, doomsayers intent on converting the masses, or prophets on a mission. We are here to provide you, yes you Karl Denninger and John Kelly, you, with the best operating system that we can. When we were approached by a commercial entity with a commercial proposition that would allow us to give you more options, options to use a better, faster, and safer operating system, we were happy to take them up, especially since their offer required us to sacrifice nothing! Sure, it would have been nice if the commercial entity had been able to provide its products for free, but this was not feasible, and truthfully, we had to make a choice between providing you with a better operating system or not providing you with a better operating system. I am confident that the right choice was made! Let me expound, for just a minute, on why I believe the right choice was made. In this world, in this day, we are more and more living in what I would call a truly cosmopolitan environment. There are people everywhere, each with their own individual goals and ends, going about their own individual work, split-out and spread-out over the entire earth. We, the world, are not Sparta, carefully molded into commune with each other, all working in sync. Some, for whom we have the greatest respect even as we laugh at their foolishness, would try to make us into Sparta. They have forgotten that it is the plurality and multiplicity that has made modern civilization into the success it is, which, for all its shortcomings, must be acknowledged as greater and higher than that of any preceeding era. They have forgotten that they, themselves, are rebels against the very Spartan environment they advocate. They have lost sight of their roots, of their own. We, at FreeBSD, recognize reality and believe, in the greatest of Asian traditions, that it is not possible to fight reality! Rather, we must work with it, using it to enhance both itself, and us. We are not inseparable from reality, but rather, we exist only through this reality! To us, this is really only stating the obvious, but to one who has forever been smashing their head against the cornerstones of the earth, to finally appreciate this is a revelation. What is this reality that we are part of? To be sure, it is outlined above through the implicit and through the general. But, all true ideas, all noble ideas, all ideas of any significance at all, have specifics. Right now, at this time, on this day, in this world, that specific happens to be that some members of our cosmopolitan world are different from us. They are not able, perhaps due to location, perhaps history, perhaps mental stability, to provide code in the same way that we do. Consistent with our above guiding philosophy, the same one that attracted you to us, we have said "Ok, we cannot change the world to match our conception of it, therefore we must change our conception of the world." With this maxim in hand, we looked at Kirk and said: "By golly! Soft updates are way cool! How can we use them?" The result is part of one of the best operating systems in the world! Now, let's agree that, sure, it would have been sexier if this commercial entity had provided all of the code in the form we usually make our code available. However, we are adults here! There is more to life than sex! Would we be so shallow as some others in the computing community to insist that all our partners have only the highest level of sex appeal? Never! This is the 90's, and we have to recognize that once the lights are off, intercourse is intercourse, and all those sexy features that make you want to sleep with rms instead of gates amount to absolutely nothing. When all is said and done, a pretty face is only a pretty face, which can alone by itself accomplish nothing save for looking pretty. Microsoft, the great evil empire, has released software called "FrontPage". "Horror of Horrors" I hear cried, as I explain that, yes, people, good, sexy people, have gone out of their way to work with this software. Why? Because, my friends, "FrontPage" has the appropriate desired sex organs, and, while it may not be pretty, it gets the job done. Now, to address what is hopefully one last issue one last time: One of the necessities for a cosmopolitan world is a common means of exchange. Money, in our case. Alas, however, plastic surgeons do not come cheap. To buy a facelift for each of our partners, majestically transforming them from an ugly beast into only the fairest and handsomest of people, is simply not feasibly at this time, in this world. We take them as they come, since, after all, it is from this maelstrom of population that we, ourselves, have risen, and to fight our birth parents, our heritage, indeed, ultimately ourselves, is foolishness. However, should you provide funds for the various sex toys that we purchase at our discretion, which are, of course, relatively cheap, we should be most grateful! I must caution, though, a sex toy does not a partner make --- rather, these toys we purchase are useful in only the most general of senses. Now, I realize I probably lost most of my audience with the very message header I maintained, and probably most of those remaining after paragraph #2, but for those hardy souls, those intent on gaining wisdom and knowledge, who have read and followed and understood thus far, to them I say: remember what you have learned! Don't let it die! Hold onto it in your hearts! I do not claim any great wisdom for myself; I am no prophet, no seer, no leader. I can only speak what I see, and see what is to be found here on this physical world. If you have found some great wisdom in here, then it is you who have found it, rather than I who have given it to you. Comparatively, if you have not found any great wisdom in here, perhaps you are blind as a bat? Speaking of which, incidentally, has anyone else noticed that there now exists a WWW.FreeBSD.NET? -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. [I should also take this space to do my obligatory egging on of all participants in the most recent debate. Rather than being specific, I shall merely suggest to you that spirit. Consider this the suggestion! Now go! Fight!] [Rated "R" for stupidity] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 00:29:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13808 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:29:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6471.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13795; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:29:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA00486; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 03:27:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 03:27:55 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: ac199@hwcn.org, John Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-Reply-To: <26550.889430971@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Good point. I hadn't thought the definition through to its logical > conclusion. So if John has no software of his own and cannot write > his own software, does that make him then a eunuch? ;-) Ummm... ;-) > Or a horde. I like "software horde", but with no Genghis Kahn this > time. :) But that reeks of Linux. How about locusts. Hundreds of thousands composing a massive locust plague? Biblical doomsday connotations to go along with Chuck the daemon! ;-) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 00:43:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17697 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:43:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (dynamic57.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17644; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:43:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id AAA16461; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:13:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980309001312.00753@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:13:12 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199803090739.XAA27858@rah.star-gate.com> <26450.889430563@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <26450.889430563@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 12:02:43AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 12:02:43AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Yes, you are the King and guess what we ain't going to let you go 8) > > Oh man, does this mean I have to gain 50 pounds and wear a white > jumpsuit with sequins on it now? :-) > You have the sideburns for it. ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 00:48:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20013 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:48:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19907 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:48:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id TAA18051; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:39:02 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803090839.TAA18051@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "Mar 9, 98 02:45:09 am" To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:39:02 +1100 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is your middle name "Terry" by any chance? Or, are you somehow related? Maybe you've just slept together? I sense a resemblance. 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 01:08:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25809 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 01:08:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp6506.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6506.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25606 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 01:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA01546; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 03:59:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 03:59:43 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: John Birrell cc: ac199@hwcn.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-Reply-To: <199803090839.TAA18051@cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, John Birrell wrote: > Is your middle name "Terry" by any chance? Heh. I like to think I'm at least a tad more poetic. And I definately couldn't handle the the technical requirements of being a relation of Terry. :-) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 02:18:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA13507 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 02:18:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA13477 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 02:18:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id UAA18269; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:15:51 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803090915.UAA18269@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "Mar 9, 98 03:59:43 am" To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:15:51 +1100 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Heh. I like to think I'm at least a tad more poetic. And I > definately couldn't handle the the technical requirements of > being a relation of Terry. :-) You must be a lot *younger*, so perhaps you're his son. In which case suicide might be a reasonable course of action. There's always a way out! Ask me if you need more ideas. 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 02:19:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA13697 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 02:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (207-172-239-77.s13.as2.rkv.erols.com [207.172.239.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA13677 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 02:19:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA02849; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:21:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) X-Authentication-Warning: quark.ChrisBowman.com: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:21:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: Amancio Hasty cc: Marc Slemko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-Reply-To: <199803090752.XAA27962@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >The intent of Kirk is to allow hackers or plain users of FreeBSD to >use soft updates any commercial entity wishing to profit from it >must first strike a deal with Kirk. Is that simple and we have >an e-mail from Kirk to that effect. If you are a commercial >entity and wish clarification take it up with Kirk and for >the rest us (hackers) the code is free to use. It is nice of Kirk to tell us his intent, but someone who knows him ought to tell him that the liscense terms accompanying his copyright doesn't say what he wants. Item 4 in same applies ONLY in the case of redistribution. Thus use for commercial purposes is not restricted, only REDISTRIBUTION is restricted. If your commercial use does not require redistribution then item 4 doesn't even apply to you, and provided you meet terms 1 through 3 you are in complience with his liscense as published with the copyright notice. Conversely if your purpose does require redistribution then commercial or not you must provide source as descirbed in term 4. FreeBSD meets this criterion and thus this file could be distributed on the CD at the descretion of core. Now, Kirk may distribute the code in parrallel under a different set of liscense terms (the ones he enumerates in his emails) but unless Kirk speciffically revokes his liscense (can he even do that in the absense of specific terms allowing this in liscense, I think so) published in the copyrights available at: http://www.freebsd.org/~julian/softdep.copyrights.txt it is perfectly permissable for a person to use the terms of the liscense found in the URL above. --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com My home page To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 04:44:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04237 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:44:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA04232 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:44:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA27120; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:43:03 -0800 (PST) To: Karl Denninger cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 1998 05:47:57 CST." <19980309054757.46674@mcs.net> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 04:43:03 -0800 Message-ID: <27116.889447383@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Mr. Dyson, please contact me. Assuming that your latest NFS fixes actually > do fix the problems we've had with NFS, you're entitled to *ALL* of what was > going to go to the FreeBSD effort - as a *PERSONAL* donation. Hey, that certainly sounds good to me. I'm sure that John can use it every bit as constructively (new equipment for R&D is a constant cost for *all* of us) and I think that any situation involving Karl, I and money, no matter *how* peripherally or indirectly, is something that all parties concerned should run screaming from in any case. Thank you, Karl, I find myself to be entirely in agreement with your handling of this (save, perhaps, for the cc line which I've redirected mercifully to -chat). Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 04:58:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA05646 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA05639; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:58:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id GAA28230; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:58:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id GAA00745; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:58:05 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980309065805.29830@mcs.net> Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:58:05 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" References: <19980309054757.46674@mcs.net> <27116.889447383@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <27116.889447383@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 04:43:03AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 04:43:03AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Mr. Dyson, please contact me. Assuming that your latest NFS fixes actually > > do fix the problems we've had with NFS, you're entitled to *ALL* of what was > > going to go to the FreeBSD effort - as a *PERSONAL* donation. > > Hey, that certainly sounds good to me. I'm sure that John can use it > every bit as constructively (new equipment for R&D is a constant cost > for *all* of us) and I think that any situation involving Karl, I and > money, no matter *how* peripherally or indirectly, is something that > all parties concerned should run screaming from in any case. Thank > you, Karl, I find myself to be entirely in agreement with your > handling of this (save, perhaps, for the cc line which I've redirected > mercifully to -chat). > > Jordan Actually, Jordan, given your penchant to PERSONALLY lambast me on your mailing lists in the finest of bully-pulpit fashions, ignoring your own charter while threatening to remove me if I reply in kind, is just what I expect from tin-pot dictators. And yes, I'm going to save all of this nice exchange, including your threats, and make sure that your corporate sponsors (in particular, Walnut Creek, who funds no small part of *your* little game) is aware of the way you conduct yourself in this regard. Mr. Dyson is one of the few people involved in FreeBSD who has a modicum of decency and sense to go along with his professionalism. You certainly do not, as has been proven time and time again. You don't like the idea of people donating money getting to "vote". Fine. I understand that - it makes perfect sense to me. But then you can't expect to get one THIN DIME until you do the things that those of us who WOULD VOTE need to have *DONE*! Its simple - if I can't put strings on the funds, then the funds don't go out until the requirements are *MET*. That is, the funding is post-hoc rather than in advance, because for all I know you'd take the money and go to Tahiti rather than actually use it constructively. I, long ago, stated quite clearly what the needs were here in terms of things that absolutely *had* to be fixed before I could justify a corporate donation to your "efforts". They got back-burnered. Well, so did the donation. Why? Simple enough - if I had made it earlier, it would have accomplished *NOTHING*. In this particular case, I hope Mr. Dyson *DOES* use it to go to Tahiti and suck down some Mai Tais. Between him and Mr. Gibbs there is hope for FreeBSD yet. You, unfortunately, as the putative "head" of CORE, do more to piss people like me off than anything else. In the last 24 hours I've caught two separate problems with the -CURRENT source tree, posted notes on them ahead of anyone else, and for one of them I found and fixed the problem - noting that as well - which got me a "thanks" from the person who sent in the bad commit. How much time did this save someone? I have no idea - but it wasn't a big deal for me to do. In the past year and a half I've provided the results of our real-world testing under production loads back to the CORE team, requested or not, on a regular basis. I've also found and fixed a number of problems, including a few in the C library which happened to be rather important. You obviously don't think any of this is of value, and that being a pissant on "your" mailing lists is a better approach. That is your choice. As the putative "head" of the core team, I respect your opinion and request (even though I believe it is entirely without merit), and therefore will be providing no further commentary or assistance back to the team at all - since you've made it quite clear that its unwanted and unappreciated. That is, unless you see fit to apologize in the same public fashion as your rant was originally made. SOFTUPDATES, besides not working (as is being constantly demonstrated) has a license agreement which doesn't actually represent the will of the author. While Kirk has no obligation to actually say what he means, I find it incredible that you would integrate support for the software into FreeBSD under those conditions. It is precisely this kind of poor judgement that leads me to question the entire process by which the CORE team operates. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 05:01:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06354 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:01:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06336 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:01:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id GAA27177 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:42:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id GAA00662 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:42:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by Mailbox.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA17399 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:43:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA24805; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:42:03 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 1998 02:14:48 GMT." <35034f2e.134015736@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 18:42:03 -0800 Message-ID: <24802.889411323@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It's amazing how some of the same people who decry commercializing > FreeBSD with donor control of funding have no objection to Kirk's > commercial hooks. > > Score 1 for the GPL. If either of you start this shit up again I'll have you both off the mailing lists and banned from posting faster than you can say "cheese". First and only warning. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 05:42:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12586 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:42:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12532; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:41:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA27358; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:40:59 -0800 (PST) To: Karl Denninger cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 1998 06:58:05 CST." <19980309065805.29830@mcs.net> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 05:40:59 -0800 Message-ID: <27354.889450859@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And yes, I'm going to save all of this nice exchange, including your > threats, and make sure that your corporate sponsors (in particular, Walnut > Creek, who funds no small part of *your* little game) is aware of the way Thanks, I really needed a good chuckle right about now and the above paragraph still has me smiling as I re-read it. Intentionally or not, you've given my morning a much needed boost, thanks! :-) > I understand that - it makes perfect sense to me. But then you can't expect > to get one THIN DIME until you do the things that those of us who WOULD VOTE > need to have *DONE*! And I thought I'd already made it more than plain that I *didn't* expect any funding from you, dangling strings or no, if that's what you wanted. Why you feel compelled to beat that dead horse and then loudly disclaim my right to ride it is beyond me. I don't *want* to ride your horsie, OK Karl? You can have this particular deceased equine all to yourself! > Its simple - if I can't put strings on the funds, then the funds don't go > out until the requirements are *MET*. That is, the funding is post-hoc Yes, yes, you're not saying anything which you haven't already said before and you were already given the reply that if you wanted such a degree of control then you should simply ** fund your own development efforts **, _exactly_ as a number of other commercial interests are doing now. What part of that concept is proving so very difficult for you to understand? > In this particular case, I hope Mr. Dyson *DOES* use it to go to Tahiti > and suck down some Mai Tais. Good, me too. We're finding ourselves in so much agreement here, in fact, that one of us is going to come down with an unbearable attack of the warm fuzzies soon if we don't knock it off. > Between him and Mr. Gibbs there is hope for FreeBSD yet. You, unfortunately, > as the putative "head" of CORE, do more to piss people like me off than > anything else. Karl, Karl, Karl.. I think even Mother Theresa could piss you off (and vice-versa) and she's dead. Such accusations mean nothing, like accusing the government of inefficiency or the military of having a penchant for violence. :-) > As the putative "head" of the core team, I respect your opinion and request > (even though I believe it is entirely without merit), and therefore will You're in dreamland, Karl. First off, I resigned as the "head" of the core team over a year ago specifically in reaction to your abusiveness at the time (to stand and take crap from Karl as President was a worse alternative than to simply resign the position and regain my right to respond to such, erm, people more as a "private citizen") and I was hardly the only core member thus abused - you've been a "problem child" almost from day one (and no, I don't think that BSDI would be willing to take you back either, damn them!). Second, I don't see that any "request" was made for you to do anything in my original message. Yes, I flamed you, and considering how little regard I have for you that should hardly come as any sort of surprise to anyone, but I still don't see where I said in any part of the message that "Karl should stop being useful to the project now." Either learn to separate me and the project or learn to live with the fact that you'll always be viewing it through a self-imposed myopia. There are a lot more people than I working on this project now and I don't hold any position close to that of president (check your org charts - the public relations guy and release engineer don't usually sit in or near the CEO's office). > SOFTUPDATES, besides not working (as is being constantly demonstrated) has a > license agreement which doesn't actually represent the will of the author. It has a license agreement which means what the license agreement says, regardless of how you may have [mis]interpreted the "will of the author" (and if that ain't nebulous, I don't know what is). Read it again, abide by what it says there and I doubt that Kirk will have anything to say about it. > While Kirk has no obligation to actually say what he means, I find it > incredible that you would integrate support for the software into FreeBSD > under those conditions. It is precisely this kind of poor judgement that > leads me to question the entire process by which the CORE team operates. Uh huh.. I'll just let this paragraph stand on its own, it says more than I ever could about the nature of the man I'm dealing with here. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 9 05:44:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12936 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:44:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12931; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:44:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id HAA00532; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:44:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id HAA01074; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:44:17 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980309074417.59005@mcs.net> Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:44:17 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Someone needs to re-develop "Softupdates" References: <19980309065805.29830@mcs.net> <27354.889450859@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <27354.889450859@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 05:40:59AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 05:40:59AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > As the putative "head" of the core team, I respect your opinion and request > > (even though I believe it is entirely without merit), and therefore will > > You're in dreamland, Karl. First off, I resigned as the "head" of the > core team over a year ago specifically in reaction to your abusiveness > at the time (to stand and take crap from Karl as President was a worse > alternative than to simply resign the position and regain my right to > respond to such, erm, people more as a "private citizen") and I was > hardly the only core member thus abused - you've been a "problem > child" almost from day one (and no, I don't think that BSDI would be > willing to take you back either, damn them!). Then what gave you the right to threaten to remove me from the lists? Or was that an empty threat Jordan? More of the same from you? Not that I'm surprised. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 11 00:56:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10768 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:56:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from u1.farm.idt.net (root@u1.farm.idt.net [169.132.8.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10762 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:56:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garycorc@idt.net) Received: from idt.net (ppp-28.ts-1.mlb.idt.net [169.132.71.28]) by u1.farm.idt.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA10240 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 03:56:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3506511A.75F92FBA@idt.net> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 03:53:46 -0500 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PCs without Windows? (news story) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did you hear about the letter sent by Ralph Nader from a consumer group, to the top six PC manufacturers, asking them to offer PCs with non-Microsoft operating systems? There's a news story on it at: http://www.pcworld.com/news/daily/data/0398/980309225518.html The actual letter can be found (scroll down to get to it) at: http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/ipnmarch91998.html Unfortunately it doesn't explicitly mention FreeBSD - and it may not change anything in the short term - but at least it's a start! Gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 11 17:17:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25015 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:17:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from subcellar.mwci.net (subcellar.mwci.net [205.254.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25003 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:17:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jwalt@mwci.net) Received: from firewall.mwci.net (firewall.mwci.net [205.254.160.134]) by subcellar.mwci.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08968 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:17:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:17:09 -0600 (CST) From: Jesse Walters To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: cdrom mounting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a cdrom (ide) when I run dmesg it shows up as wdc0. However, I don't know the device name I should use to mount it. I also think for standard dos cd's I need to use cd9660 option correct? Again, I think this is just a beginner question I just haven't had a whole lot of time to check it out. Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 11 17:21:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26369 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:21:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@ppp-25-153.tidalwave.net [208.220.25.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA26351 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@wakky.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03082; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:21:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980311202126.62284@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:21:26 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Jesse Walters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cdrom mounting Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: ; from Jesse Walters on Wed, Mar 11, 1998 at 07:17:09PM -0600 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 11, 1998 at 07:17:09PM -0600, Jesse Walters wrote: > I have a cdrom (ide) when I run dmesg it shows up as wdc0. > However, I don't know the device name I should use to mount it. I also > think for standard dos cd's I need to use cd9660 option correct? You want /dev/wcd0c. Mount it with mount -t cd9660 /dev/wcd0c /wherever where /wherever is where you want to mount it (usually /cdrom). > Again, I think this is just a beginner question I just haven't had a whole > lot of time to check it out. Thanks. Glad to help....but you may want to send questions like these to questions@freebsd.org; that's what it's there for. :) -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 11 19:35:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17552 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:35:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1706.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17540 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00243; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:50:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:50:25 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Studded cc: Niall Smart , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WINE (was: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks?) In-Reply-To: <35052DC6.E3A4B42C@dal.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Studded wrote: > Good guess. :) I've got a *LOT* of time and effort invested in my IRC > Operator scripts (about 200k worth) and there aren't any unix irc For that kind of work you could probably add whatever functionality it is you need to ircii... :) (Seriously, from previous experience, I seem to remember it being fairly reasonble to modify) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 12 06:36:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:36:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA00958 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:35:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: from [195.120.151.160] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id va608941 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:33:47 +0200 Received: (qmail 1058 invoked by uid 1000); 12 Mar 1998 14:33:39 -0000 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:33:39 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Bill & James Bond ;-) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This one is really nice. And yes, that Gene Spafford is the author of _Practical Unix and Internet Security_ :-) Marco ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:50:03 -0700 From: Quote of the day To: Quote of the day mailing list Subject: Quote of the day "Bill Gates is only a white persian cat and a monocle away from being the villain in a James Bond movie." - Dennis Miller during his 3/6/98 live show on HBO. Submitted by: Gene Spafford Mar. 7, 1998 -------------------------------------------------------------- Send quotation submissions to qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca Send list changes or requests to qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 12 17:05:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13423 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:05:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13331 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:05:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01407; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:35:17 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA06166; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:35:17 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980313113517.19035@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:35:17 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FYI: for people who want Solaris/x86... References: <199803121850.TAA01378@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803121850.TAA01378@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Thu, Mar 12, 1998 at 07:50:22PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (following up to -chat) On Thu, 12 March 1998 at 19:50:22 +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > Check out http://www.sun.com/solaris/tradein.html if you want/need > Solaris/x86. Looks like you could tradein an old FreeBSD CDROM too. > > [no, I don't intend to run Solaris, just thought it might be useful to > someone] I don't see any mention of FreeBSD there. They did say "competitive" environments, after all :-) Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 13 04:24:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16276 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 04:24:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from skraldespand.demos.su (skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.5.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA16243 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 04:23:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mishania@skraldespand.demos.su) Received: (from mishania@localhost) by skraldespand.demos.su (8.8.8/D) id PAA22167; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:22:40 +0300 (MSK) Posted-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:22:40 +0300 (MSK) Message-ID: <19980313152240.36942@demos.su> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:22:40 +0300 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. X-Useless-Header: Look ma! It's a # sign! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, what will it be for FreeBSD then? ---- X-URL: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,20033,00.html ... [39]Category Intranets Email developer goes commercial By [40]Dan Goodin Staff Writer, CNET NEWS.COM March 12, 1998, 5:40 p.m. PT Following a trend of the network he helped build, Internet architect Eric Allman is going commercial. Nearly 20 years ago, the computer programmer developed a simple program for [41]Source code for the masses exchanging email between a government network known as the [42]ARPAnet and the computer system at the [43]University of California at Berkeley. Today, Allman's Sendmail software--which is free for any network administrator to copy, use, and modify--routes an estimated 75 percent of email on the Internet. Next week, the software will enter a new phase in its evolution. On Monday, Allman will announce the formation of Sendmail Incorporated, a for-profit company in Emeryville, California, that will design commercial enhancements and provide support for the program, known in Internet circles as a mail transfer agent. "We realized that the Internet is very much at a critical turning point in its evolution," said Greg Olson, a former executive at [44]Integrated Systems who will be chief executive of Sendmail. He added that as more commercial companies take to the Net, free software--also known as freeware or open source software--faces new challenges. "Free software on the Net is not necessarily the most cost-effective solution for businesses," he explained. "If it does not step up to the challenge of meeting commercial needs, it will be left behind." Sendmail joins a host of other companies that are bridging the gap between freeware and commercial enterprise. In January, [45]Netscape Communications said it would freely distribute the source code for its Communicator software suite. [46]Caldera and [47]Red Hat both have created moneymaking businesses distributing and supporting the open source operating system known as Linux. The advantage to open source is that literally thousands of talented developers are free to collaborate on bug fixes, upgrades, and support for the product, saving a company precious in-house resources. A disadvantage to open source is that it often requires more expertise in installing and configuring the software on a particular machine, creating headaches and extra costs for businesses that want to use the programs. Olson said Sendmail will adopt a "hybrid business model" that simultaneously provides solutions to businesses while preserving the open source status of the software. On Monday, the company will release in beta the next version of the open source, Sendmail 8.9. The final release is slated for early April. The new version will feature extensive tools for administrators to block spam, the company said. The first commercial product--to be called Sendmail 8.9 Pro--is due out in the third quarter of 1998, and will provide enhancements that are not available in the open source version. For instance, the commercial version will be available in a pretested, precompiled binary format, eliminating what many network administrators say is the arduous task of downloading the software off the Net and then customizing it to run on their particular systems. Olson said Sendmail would peddle its wares primarily to Internet service providers during its first year of operation and then move on to corporate customers during its second year. Phil Schacter, a senior analyst with the [48]Burton Group, said the plan is likely to work. "There's a market out there for a supported and enriched version of the mail transfer agent," he said. "Both of those marketplaces, I believe, are willing to pay to have a vendor support the product and enhance it." He added that Sendmail's biggest challenge will be pleasing corporate customers, who will want more sophisticated features built into the software: "They've got a lot of work to do before they have a complete Internet messaging product suitable for a corporate messaging infrastructure." But Sendmail has a number of advantages, namely its dominant market share. Its closest competitors, [49]Software.Com, [50]Microsoft Exchange and [51]Lotus Notes--hold just 3 percent of the market. It also has received investments from [52]Sun Microsystems executives Bill Joy and Andy Bechtolscheim. The company's biggest challenge may be trying to serve what sometimes are mutually exclusive agendas held by those in the open source and commercial communities. If Sendmail is to remain a viable open source program, its free version must contain the same advanced features as the commercial version. That approach may be hard to follow in the commercial world where there are pressures to water down free versions to provide incentives for buying the commercial version. That approach would be disastrous for Sendmail, said Eric Raymond, a programmer involved in developing open source software for the last 20 years. In the end, he says, "Sendmail will remain dependent on hackers [in the open source community] for support, testing, and development." If crucial improvements are available in the commercial version only, he warned, "there would be a peasant mob heading for the castle with pitchforks within a couple of weeks." -- -mishania To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 13 08:11:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15911 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kevin.isadora.org ([209.17.178.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15829 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:11:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by kevin.isadora.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00579; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:09:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cagey@kevin.isadora.org) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:09:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: <19980313152240.36942@demos.su> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: => Hello, => => what will it be for FreeBSD then? => => ---- => => X-URL: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,20033,00.html 1) Be first in line with your stock broker :-) 2) FreeSendmail "www.FreeSendmail.org" -- Regards and Best Wishes, | Way too many Bill-Boards on Kevin G. Eliuk | the information highway. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 13 11:47:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28490 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:47:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA28454 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:47:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA11942 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:46:51 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id SAA01956; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:59:55 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803131759.SAA01956@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: FYI: for people who want Solaris/x86... In-Reply-To: <19980313113517.19035@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 13, 98 11:35:17 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:59:54 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As Greg Lehey wrote... > (following up to -chat) > > On Thu, 12 March 1998 at 19:50:22 +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > Check out http://www.sun.com/solaris/tradein.html if you want/need > > Solaris/x86. Looks like you could tradein an old FreeBSD CDROM too. > > > > [no, I don't intend to run Solaris, just thought it might be useful to > > someone] > > I don't see any mention of FreeBSD there. They did say "competitive" > environments, after all :-) I agree that FreeBSD is without competition ;-) but I'd assume it is included. Maybe a US based volunteer should give Sun a ring to find out, just for fun. Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 13 13:52:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23525 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:52:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23481 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:52:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id WAA26963 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 22:51:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta1/keltia-2.14/nospam) id VAA26174; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:37:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980313213707.A26159@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:37:07 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980313152240.36942@demos.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i In-Reply-To: <19980313152240.36942@demos.su>; from Mikhail A. Sokolov on Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 03:22:40PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4121 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Mikhail A. Sokolov: > what will it be for FreeBSD then? I'm eagerly waiting for Wenema's VMailer. In the meantime, 8.9.0 is in beta testing (and looks good with a lot a cool anti-spam measures...). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 13 14:48:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02063 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:48:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA01639 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: from [195.120.151.117] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ga609654 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 23:45:39 +0200 Received: (qmail 1259 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Mar 1998 22:26:53 -0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 23:26:52 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: Ollivier Robert cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: <19980313213707.A26159@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Mikhail A. Sokolov: > > what will it be for FreeBSD then? www.qmail.org !!!! > I'm eagerly waiting for Wenema's VMailer. Ollivier, could you tell us something more ? Marco --- "Bill Gates is only a white persian cat and a monocle away from being the villain in a James Bond movie." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 13 19:07:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13684 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:07:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13600 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:07:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id EAA13883 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 04:07:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta1/keltia-2.14/nospam) id CAA01186; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:16:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980314021652.A1172@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:16:52 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980313213707.A26159@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Marco Molteni on Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 11:26:52PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4121 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Marco Molteni: > www.qmail.org !!!! I don't like qmail for many reasons including its obfuscated source code, its configuration system, its sending a mail for each recipient and its author. > > I'm eagerly waiting for Wenema's VMailer. > > Ollivier, > could you tell us something more ? VMailer is the new mailer written by Wietze Venema (of TCP_Wrappers' and Satan's fame). You can find more info on . -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 13 20:18:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04674 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:18:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paris.dppl.com (qmailr@paris.dppl.com [205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA04611 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:18:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yds@dppl.com) Received: (qmail 7982 invoked from network); 14 Mar 1998 04:18:01 -0000 Received: from ichiban.ingress.com (HELO ichiban) (205.230.64.31) by paris.dppl.com with SMTP; 14 Mar 1998 04:18:01 -0000 Message-ID: <028c01bd4f00$2c07e0b0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> From: "Yarema" To: Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 23:17:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >According to Marco Molteni: >> www.qmail.org !!!! > >I don't like qmail for many reasons including its obfuscated source code, >its configuration system, its sending a mail for each recipient and its >author. Qmail has performed quite well for me. But for a less radical departure from the sendmail camp www.exim.org is worth looking at. the command line is sendmail compatible. the config file is human readable. top notch anti-spam support built in and many of the capabilities which make qmail good are also present. (i.e. secure delivery over NFS, Maildir support, etc.) I didn't particularly want to learn a new mailer, but I needed to implement something which supported /var/mail delivery without the headaches and inefficiencies of sendmail. qmail is good for high volume mailing list handling and when you don't have too much invested in a sendmail like environment. (read: hundreds of users with /home and /var/mail NFS mounted.) qmail was out of the question in that kind of setup unless it was there from the beginning. -- Yarema To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 14 03:39:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23622 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:39:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA23583 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:39:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: from [195.120.151.138] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id va609903 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:38:56 +0200 Received: (qmail 366 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Mar 1998 11:36:23 -0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:36:23 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: <19980314021652.A1172@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Marco Molteni: > > www.qmail.org !!!! > > I don't like qmail for many reasons including its obfuscated source code, > its configuration system, its sending a mail for each recipient and its > author. > > > > I'm eagerly waiting for Wenema's VMailer. > > > > Ollivier, > > could you tell us something more ? > > VMailer is the new mailer written by Wietze Venema (of TCP_Wrappers' and > Satan's fame). You can find more info on . Thanks for the pointer. I know who's Wietze, and this is the reason why I asked you something more about VMailer, since I am so satisfied with qmail that I can hardly think to substitute it with something else. I use tcpd and satan. I can't think to put a machine on the internet without, eg, tcpd and sshd. But I think all this is obvious, since everybody so smart to use FreeBSD is surely so smart to use, at least, tcpd and friends ;-)))) Marco --- "Bill Gates is only a white persian cat and a monocle away from being the villain in a James Bond movie." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 14 03:39:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23637 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA23582 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:39:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: from [195.120.151.138] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ua609902 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:38:55 +0200 Received: (qmail 323 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Mar 1998 11:13:56 -0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:13:56 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: <028c01bd4f00$2c07e0b0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Yarema wrote: > Qmail has performed quite well for me. [..] I totally agree. I like qmail _and_ it's configuration system ;-) Yarema, please quote me right: > >According to Marco Molteni: > >> www.qmail.org !!!! > > > >I don't like qmail for many reasons including its obfuscated source code, > >its configuration system, its sending a mail for each recipient and its > >author. On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Marco Molteni: > > www.qmail.org !!!! > > I don't like qmail for many reasons including its obfuscated source code, > its configuration system, its sending a mail for each recipient and its > author. Marco --- "Bill Gates is only a white persian cat and a monocle away from being the villain in a James Bond movie." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 14 07:09:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16642 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:09:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from P2 (p2.isdn.net.il [192.115.104.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA15898; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:05:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from qt8-news@connect9.com) From: qt8-news@connect9.com Received: from connect9.com - 194.90.232.47 by isdn.net.il with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 17:00:08 +0200 To: qt8-news@connect9.com Subject: Hebrew/English wp & HTML generator Message-ID: <009040800150e38P2@isdn.net.il> Date: 14 Mar 1998 17:00:28 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please find REMOVE instructions at the bottom. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hebrew/English word processor and HTML generator ========================================================================= QT/8 is an advanced multilingual word processor and HTML generator, operating on any MS Windows PC platform, regardless of the Windows local version. 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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 14 17:09:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12013 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 17:09:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from skraldespand.demos.su (skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.5.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12000 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 17:09:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mishania@skraldespand.demos.su) Received: (from mishania@localhost) by skraldespand.demos.su (8.8.8/D) id EAA08647; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 04:08:20 +0300 (MSK) Posted-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 04:08:20 +0300 (MSK) Message-ID: <19980315040819.37409@demos.su> Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 04:08:19 +0300 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? References: <19980313152240.36942@demos.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: ; from "Kevin G. Eliuk" on Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:09:07AM -0800 Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. X-Useless-Header: Look ma! It's a # sign! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 13, 1998 at 08:09:07AM -0800, Kevin G. Eliuk wrote: # On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: # # => Hello, # => # => what will it be for FreeBSD then? # => ---- # => X-URL: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,20033,00.html # 1) Be first in line with your stock broker :-) # 2) FreeSendmail "www.FreeSendmail.org" http://www.vmailer.org/ ? # # -- # Regards and Best Wishes, | Way too many Bill-Boards on # Kevin G. Eliuk | the information highway. -- -mishania To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 15 09:41:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07217 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:41:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from caro.net (0@ns1.caro.NET [209.12.200.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07194; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:40:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from awhawks@usa.net) Received: from hawks.caro.net (hawks.caro.NET [209.12.201.17]) by caro.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27958; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:44:25 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:40:28 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: "Adam W. Hawks" From: "Adam W. Hawks" To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Insat Wireless Modem Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Adam W. Hawks Date: 14-Mar-98 Time: 16:06:10 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- Well folks a while back there was some talk about the insat wireless modem and whether it would work in FreeBSD or whether drivers had to be written. Well I took the leap and bought one and it will work in FreeBSD without any coding. The modem is a standard CDPD modem. For it to work with FreeBSD you have to give up the Venturi compression. The max rate in FreeBSD (without the compression) will be 19200 (portrate) and this will vary with CDPD signal strength. If someone can get info on the Venturi algorithm or get them to do a FreeBSD version then this should also work. How I got it to work. 1) turned of encryption in the modem. 2) I conected to modem with cu and put modem in SLIP mode "at sli slip" 3) I then did "ifconfig sl0 inet mymodemIP -> DNSserver(seems to be the same as the gateway) 4) I then did "slattach -h -s 19200 /dev/modem 5) I then did "route add default DNSserver 6) at this point I could work on the net. This may be trivial to some of you but it took me a while to find out the modem command that would let it work. It does seem that SLIP is the only way to connect with this modem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 15 18:27:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21508 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:27:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA21500 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:27:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kmcc@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 3026 invoked by uid 500); 16 Mar 1998 02:24:45 -0000 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 19:24:45 -0700 (MST) From: Kevin McCarthy To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ftp://ftp.atipa.com/pub/PIEGATES.EXE Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fun game! My best score id 79 so far. This would be a nice addition to the WINE porject if possible. Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 15 23:04:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17562 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paris.dppl.com (qmailr@[205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA17555 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:04:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yds@dppl.com) Received: (qmail 2678 invoked by uid 501); 16 Mar 1998 07:03:32 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 02:03:32 -0500 (EST) From: Yarema To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Marco Molteni wrote: > On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Yarema wrote: > > > Qmail has performed quite well for me. [..] > I totally agree. I like qmail _and_ it's configuration system ;-) > > Yarema, > please quote me right: <.....> Sorry, it was Outlook Express' fault. That program just don't know how to quote properly. I certainly didn't mean to misrepresent what you said. On the other hand I can also see why some people might not like qmail and its author. And Exim is a very capable MTA alternative to both sendmail and qmail. Although Exim does not claim delivery rates as high as qmail's it utilizes many of the same reliability, security and performance techniques as qmail. In any case just about anything's better than sendmail. It's unfortunate that SysAdmins continue to suffer sendmail mostly due to tradition and, very likely, licensing issues. Although zmailer might be very good, exim is available *now* with tcpd and anti-spam functionality all built into one program. -- Yarema To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 10:32:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08064 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:32:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07891 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:31:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id TAA08729 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:31:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta2/keltia-2.14/nospam) id SAA19723; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:50:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980316185004.A19698@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:50:04 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Yarema on Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 02:03:32AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4121 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Yarema: > sendmail. It's unfortunate that SysAdmins continue to suffer sendmail Some do really like sendmail (I happen to like the power of sendmail.cf), you know :-) > mostly due to tradition and, very likely, licensing issues. Although > zmailer might be very good, exim is available *now* with tcpd and > anti-spam functionality all built into one program. Sendmail 8.9, due soon (look at the headers of my message) has full anti-spam capabilities out-of-the-box (including relaying disabled by default, new rules to check headers, full regex search and more). -=-=-=-=-=- FEATURE(blacklist_recipients) FEATURE(access_db) [...] LOCAL_CONFIG Kcheckregex regex -a@MATCH ^[0-9]+$ F{dnn} /etc/mail/domains_no_numerics LOCAL_RULESETS HMessage-Id: $>CheckMessageId HTo: $>CheckTo SCheckMessageId R< $+ @ $+ > $@ OK R$* $#error $: 553 Header Error SCheckTo R< Friend@public.com > $#error $: 553 No public allowed R$* $@ OK SLocal_check_mail # check address against various regex checks R$* $: $>Parse0 $>3 $1i make domain canonical R$+ < @ $* $={dnn} > $* $: $(checkregex $1 $) R@MATCH $#error $: 553 Header Error -=-=-=-=-=- I will try VMailer as soon as it gets finally released anyway. The description available makes it look like the architecture of qmail with the power of sendmail. I also have great trust in Venema. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 13:49:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03925 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:49:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03875 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:48:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: from [195.120.151.132] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ma611142 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:48:15 +0200 Received: (qmail 677 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Mar 1998 21:43:38 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:43:37 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: <19980316185004.A19698@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > I will try VMailer as soon as it gets finally released anyway. The > description available makes it look like the architecture of qmail with > the power of sendmail. I also have great trust in Venema. Ollivier, please let us know your impressions when you'll try VMailer. I've seen the VMailer web pages and it seems *very* interesting. Marco --- "Bill Gates is only a white persian cat and a monocle away from being the villain in a James Bond movie." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 14:06:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08244 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:06:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs1.cityscope.net (cs1.cityscope.net [206.222.183.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08097 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:06:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bahwi@technologist.com) Received: from cs1 (pm2-79.cityscope.net [209.16.48.79]) by cs1.cityscope.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA22793 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:09:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199803162209.QAA22793@cs1.cityscope.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "bahwi@technologist.com" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:06:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Out of curiosity, who's planning on going to Freenix? Reply-to: zeepabo@notreallybutoknet.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is anyone planning on going to Freenix this year? Anyone been to one? What is it like? Thanks for any info. -bahwi email- bahwi@technologist.com ICQ Name: bahwi UIN: 3328936 iChat Name: bahwi -EOF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 15:15:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24682 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:15:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA24644 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:15:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id AAA23656 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:15:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta2/keltia-2.14/nospam) id XAA22697; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:51:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980316235140.A22657@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:51:40 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who's planning on going to Freenix? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199803162209.QAA22793@cs1.cityscope.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i In-Reply-To: <199803162209.QAA22793@cs1.cityscope.net>; from bahwi@technologist.com on Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 04:06:05PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4121 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to bahwi@technologist.com: > Is anyone planning on going to Freenix this year? Anyone been to one? > What is it like? Thanks for any info. As it was said a few days ago, many people inclding part of the core team do lpan to be in New Orleans. I'll try to get here (being my first Usenix conference). Any info will be appreciated here too :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 16:22:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18752 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:22:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18716 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:22:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com) Received: (from gibbs@localhost) by narnia.plutotech.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA12475; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:19:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:19:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Message-Id: <199803170019.RAA12475@narnia.plutotech.com> To: Ollivier Robert cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who's planning on going to Freenix? In-Reply-To: <199803162209.QAA22793@cs1.cityscope.net> <19980316235140.A22657@keltia.freenix.fr> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971204 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-CURRENT (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You may want to look at the usenix web page for details on the different talks. The people giving talks (I being one of them) will definitely be there. 8-) -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 17:35:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08323 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:35:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA08253 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:34:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 13946 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1998 01:42:00 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 17 Mar 1998 01:42:00 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:42:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Marco Molteni Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Mar-98 Marco Molteni wrote: > On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > >> I will try VMailer as soon as it gets finally released anyway. The >> description available makes it look like the architecture of qmail with >> the power of sendmail. I also have great trust in Venema. > > Ollivier, please let us know your impressions when you'll try VMailer. > I've seen the VMailer web pages and it seems *very* interesting. Yup. I think it is good news that sendmail goes commercial. now this abomination will be removed from the FreeBSD source tree. We may be able to put something else there. Evind, Ready? > > Marco > --- > "Bill Gates is only a white persian cat and a monocle away from being the > villain in a James Bond movie." > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 17:53:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12223 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:53:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12188; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:53:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803170153.RAA12188@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 16, 98 05:42:00 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:53:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: molter@logic.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 16-Mar-98 Marco Molteni wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > >> I will try VMailer as soon as it gets finally released anyway. The > >> description available makes it look like the architecture of qmail with > >> the power of sendmail. I also have great trust in Venema. > > > > Ollivier, please let us know your impressions when you'll try VMailer. > > I've seen the VMailer web pages and it seems *very* interesting. > > Yup. I think it is good news that sendmail goes commercial. now this > abomination will be removed from the FreeBSD source tree. We may be able > to put something else there. Evind, Ready? how soon they forget. the body is not even still (sendmail will deliver this message) and already they are kicking it.... forlk, you may not like sendmail it may be frustrating at times. but it has served us well for years! show a little kindness. plus it aint no sure thang that we are replacing it. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 18:06:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19340 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:06:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enteract.com (ainvar@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA19231 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:06:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ainvar@enteract.com) From: ainvar@enteract.com Received: (from ainvar@localhost) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) id UAA17089; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:06:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980316200626.42399@enteract.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:06:26 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 05:42:00PM -0800 x-no-archive: yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 05:42:00PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: >=20 > Yup. I think it is good news that sendmail goes commercial. now this > abomination will be removed from the FreeBSD source tree. We may be able > to put something else there. Evind, Ready? >=20 Actually I think the sendmail program will remain free, however there will be a 'advanced' version of sendmail that will be commercialware with tech support & all that. Before you remove it from the source tree, keep in mind a lot of us are using it for a lot of different things and don't particullary want to rewrite mail configuration files :) --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNQ3aoTb5Q8E1KAKlAQGBpQP+KnnlqT7q0AYkoh2SQyTmdzNt4EQ26xgP ijr2tU3emr3XJocfWOUi/u3nCUd4zXsmhZyMRKtDahsgh2lR/u13W8y/cvlENyEc uYjqUmzc71eujADkJ//rqGZ0d83nJ5pRq65eVb59drRwO2xiRG3e3n/Uqp0ZpRYJ 4J0Jgm2CQ9E= =HP7h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 18:15:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21045 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:15:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21032; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:14:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA08510; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:14:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:14:47 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: <199803170153.RAA12188@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Simon Shapiro wrote: > > Yup. I think it is good news that sendmail goes commercial. now this > > abomination will be removed from the FreeBSD source tree. We may be able > > to put something else there. Evind, Ready? > > how soon they forget. > the body is not even still (sendmail will deliver this message) > and already they are kicking it.... > > forlk, you may not like sendmail > it may be frustrating at times. > but it has served us well for years! > > show a little kindness. > > > plus it aint no sure thang that we are replacing it. _IF_ the sendmail opponents bothered to read the announcement they only saw what they wanted to see and totally ignored the paragarph that states: Emoryville, Calif.-based Sendmail Inc. will not subsume the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ freeware versions of the program. In an unusual hybrid strategy, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Olson said he will continue to help develop new iterations of vvvv ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ free sendmail while packaging his own offering. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The code is everywhere, people, complete with BSD copyright. Just because someone makes a commercial version does not prevent anyone and everyone from maintaining, expanding, and improving the bits. Just think in terms of FreeBSD and BSDi. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 18:40:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26784 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:40:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp1668.on.bellglobal.com (ppp1668.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26779 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:40:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1668.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00243; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:38:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp1668.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:38:46 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: ainvar@enteract.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: <19980316200626.42399@enteract.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 ainvar@enteract.com wrote: > > Before you remove it from the source tree, keep in mind a lot of us are > using it for a lot of different things and don't particullary want to > rewrite mail configuration files :) Just to try and keep a rein on reality, here... 1) Sendmail is not, nor does it show any intention of, becoming a "closed-source", proprietary, not freely available program. 2) No one has even dared suggest removing it from the source tree! 3) This whole thread is purely speculative. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 21:11:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23353 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:11:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA23237 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:11:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 23305 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1998 05:18:47 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 17 Mar 1998 05:18:47 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803170153.RAA12188@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:18:46 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: molter@logic.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Mar-98 Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Simon Shapiro wrote: >> >> On 16-Mar-98 Marco Molteni wrote: >> > On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: >> > >> >> I will try VMailer as soon as it gets finally released anyway. The >> >> description available makes it look like the architecture of qmail >> >> with >> >> the power of sendmail. I also have great trust in Venema. >> > >> > Ollivier, please let us know your impressions when you'll try VMailer. >> > I've seen the VMailer web pages and it seems *very* interesting. >> >> Yup. I think it is good news that sendmail goes commercial. now this >> abomination will be removed from the FreeBSD source tree. We may be >> able >> to put something else there. Evind, Ready? > > how soon they forget. > the body is not even still (sendmail will deliver this message) > and already they are kicking it.... Nah, I have been kicking this one when it was still young. > forlk, you may not like sendmail > it may be frustrating at times. > but it has served us well for years! Yea, True, but... > show a little kindness. OK. Sorry for the glee. This program has been wonderful, and it is wonderful that it had been. > plus it aint no sure thang that we are replacing it. Don't lose hope :-) R$* < @ $=w .CS.Berkeley.EDU > $* $: $1 < @ $j > $3 Programming obscurity at its best. Who needs encryption? ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 16 22:48:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13075 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:48:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA13021 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:48:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 24456 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1998 06:55:53 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 17 Mar 1998 06:55:53 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:55:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: jack Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jonathan M. Bresler" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Mar-98 jack wrote: .. > _IF_ the sendmail opponents bothered to read the announcement > they only saw what they wanted to see and totally ignored the > paragarph that states: .. Don't take it seriously Jack. This is all good hearted. Also, we are no dummies and realize the grandfather clauses in US commerce, etc. On the serious side of it, there is a strong, well educated, and well founded resistance to what/how sendmail works. This objection was valid in the early 1980's, and still is valid today. The only true virtue of sendmail is that it was there while nothing else was. Well, this is not true, nor accurate either. But it is the ``standard'' SMTP MTA with UUCP support that functions. To quote its heritage, etc., as proof of quality is akin to saying that M$ Lose95 is the best O/S, in the world, or that Messy-Word is the best word processor. Both statements are as incorrect as can be. BTW, I am NOT putting sendmail in the same class as M$ stuff. To do so is purely offensive to Sendmail, its creator, maintainers, and fans. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 03:51:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22386 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 03:51:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22379 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 03:51:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00911; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:51:40 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA07793; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:51:39 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980317125138.51241@follo.net> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:51:38 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disk munging problem with current solved References: <005b01bd5199$cdbfff00$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <005b01bd5199$cdbfff00$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu>; from Alfred Perlstein on Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 06:42:44AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 06:42:44AM -0500, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > bah! wussies... :) > > can anyone suggest a good tape backup? j/k The one from saturday should be good. Alternatively, 'dump' :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 06:00:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16267 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 06:00:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16257; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 05:59:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803171359.FAA16257@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 16, 98 09:18:46 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 05:59:49 -0800 (PST) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, molter@logic.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Simon Shapiro wrote: > Don't lose hope :-) > > R$* < @ $=w .CS.Berkeley.EDU > $* $: $1 < @ $j > $3 > > Programming obscurity at its best. Who needs encryption? you think that's obscure? what about the medival french tranliterated into hebrew in Rashi's commentary......that's obscure. these days french scholars use Rashi to study the history of french. crimmie! St Louis (King Louis IX of France) must be rolling in his grave at the very thought ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 07:23:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29422 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:23:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29374; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-6.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.6]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA14550; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:23:12 GMT Message-ID: <350E95C6.C58D662D@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:24:54 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, molter@logic.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? References: <199803170153.RAA12188@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Simon Shapiro wrote: > > > > On 16-Mar-98 Marco Molteni wrote: > > > On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > [clipped] > > Yup. I think it is good news that sendmail goes commercial. now this > > abomination will be removed from the FreeBSD source tree. We may be able > > to put something else there. Evind, Ready? > > how soon they forget. > the body is not even still (sendmail will deliver this message) > and already they are kicking it.... > > forlk, you may not like sendmail > it may be frustrating at times. > but it has served us well for years! > > show a little kindness. > > plus it aint no sure thang that we are replacing it. > jmb > FWIR, the free track is _still_ free, isn't it? I thought source of 8.9 would be available, just not the so-called 'Pro' enhancements. As Jonathan says, it serves me well, although certainly a .cf-rule-writing front end would be a blessing. I might suggest that the same comments about 'abomination' have run through my mind about the C language itself... ;) Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 07:29:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01336 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:29:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01258; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:29:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803171529.HAA01258@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: <350E95C6.C58D662D@ibm.net> from Don Wilde at "Mar 17, 98 07:24:54 am" To: dwilde1@ibm.net Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:29:17 -0800 (PST) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, molter@logic.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don Wilde wrote: > FWIR, the free track is _still_ free, isn't it? I thought source of 8.9 > would be available, just not the so-called 'Pro' enhancements. As > Jonathan says, it serves me well, although certainly a .cf-rule-writing > front end would be a blessing. the .cf-rule-writing front end is the m4 preprocessor and the example .mc files in ..../sendmail/cf/cf its much better than in the days before using m4 ;) (i remember when real programmers used butterfly switches to hammer in the code........;) > I might suggest that the same comments about 'abomination' have run > through my mind about the C language itself... ;) gawd....dont go there.....we start talking about C++ and "whee lets add yet another meaning for the keyword static". jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 07:50:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07332 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:50:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA07274; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:50:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-6.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.6]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA85546; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:50:00 GMT Message-ID: <350E9C0E.5993F369@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:51:42 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? References: <199803171529.HAA01258@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Don Wilde wrote: > > FWIR, the free track is _still_ free, isn't it? I thought source of 8.9 > > would be available, just not the so-called 'Pro' enhancements. As > > Jonathan says, it serves me well, although certainly a .cf-rule-writing > > front end would be a blessing. > > the .cf-rule-writing front end is the m4 preprocessor > and the example .mc files in ..../sendmail/cf/cf > > its much better than in the days before using m4 ;) > (i remember when real programmers used butterfly switches > to hammer in the code........;) > Smile when you say that... I learned assembly on an Intel SDK-86, and all my classwork -- including compiler-writing in CDC-6400 assembly -- was done on punch cards with 24-hour debug turnaround. > > I might suggest that the same comments about 'abomination' have run > > through my mind about the C language itself... ;) > > gawd....dont go there.....we start talking about C++ > and "whee lets add yet another meaning for the keyword static". > jmb Sorry I'm rehashing this thread long after you guys did. I used to be an assembly programmer, and I thought between that, LISP and Smalltalk I had it covered. The old commercial bugaboo bit me hard and I've grown tired of being pinched by Digitalk / ParcPlace and M$ for a G$ every year just to have the privilege. I'll learn my C and like it, thank you, and my M4, and my YACC, and my Xt, and I'll discover the elegance you all already know is there. I was finally cured by finding a syntax-driven language that's _worse_ than C: PERL. Those so-called 'global' variables are absolutely impossible to remember. Once you train yourself to see parsing and syntactic elements like %% and {} as they are meant to be, C ain't soooo bad. Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 09:09:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29195 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA29183 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:09:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 2144 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1998 17:17:00 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 17 Mar 1998 17:17:00 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803171359.FAA16257@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:17:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, molter@logic.it Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Mar-98 Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Simon Shapiro wrote: >> Don't lose hope :-) >> >> R$* < @ $=w .CS.Berkeley.EDU > $* $: $1 < @ $j > $3 >> >> Programming obscurity at its best. Who needs encryption? > > you think that's obscure? > what about the medival french tranliterated into hebrew > in Rashi's commentary......that's obscure. these days > french scholars use Rashi to study the history of french. > crimmie! St Louis (King Louis IX of France) must be > rolling in his grave at the very thought ;) I studied Rashi in highschool. Even for native Hebrew speaker, it is a bit obscure, but, it is decypherable, which cannot be said for the typical sendmail script. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 09:13:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29696 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:13:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA29670 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:12:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 2198 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1998 17:20:17 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 17 Mar 1998 17:20:17 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <350E95C6.C58D662D@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:20:17 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Don Wilde Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, molter@logic.it, "Jonathan M. Bresler" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Mar-98 Don Wilde wrote: .. > I might suggest that the same comments about 'abomination' have run > through my mind about the C language itself... ;) Without an argument. Just a matter of degree. See the discussion on the merits of do { ...} while (0) elsewhere... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 14:14:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05632 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA05482 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:14:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: from [195.120.151.118] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ra611693 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:13:41 +0200 Received: (qmail 672 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Mar 1998 22:07:15 -0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:07:14 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: Simon Shapiro cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > On 17-Mar-98 Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > show a little kindness. > > OK. Sorry for the glee. This program has been wonderful, and it is > wonderful that it had been. > > > plus it aint no sure thang that we are replacing it. > > Don't lose hope :-) > > Simon Shapiro Simon, I really *enjoyed* your reply ;-) I feel well when I heard that I'm not the only one to dislike sendmail. Marco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 14:23:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08122 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:23:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08100 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:23:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 11046 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1998 22:30:30 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 17 Mar 1998 22:30:30 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:30:30 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Marco Molteni Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Mar-98 Marco Molteni wrote: > On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > >> On 17-Mar-98 Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >> >> > show a little kindness. >> >> OK. Sorry for the glee. This program has been wonderful, and it is >> wonderful that it had been. >> >> > plus it aint no sure thang that we are replacing it. >> >> Don't lose hope :-) >> >> Simon Shapiro > > Simon, I really *enjoyed* your reply ;-) > I feel well when I heard that I'm not the only one to dislike sendmail. Thanx. I think sendmail is worth studying. Itis typical Unix thing. The original set of goals was never fully studied (the let's hack code first. Ask why later). The design happened along the way (efficiency, security, scalability, and lack thereof). To add insult to injury, the configuration ``language'' was optimized for the machine, not for the human, totally missing the purpose of computers and sooftware (to serve us mortals). Just like vi (raise a racket, Simon :-), it sort of happened where there was a void, and got established. Later on, the scientists came in and built a theory around the thing. If there was any money in it (to pay the bills while I do it), I'd write a replacement. I've done it once before and it worked real well. But that was for a proprietary contract. Enough time has passed, though... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 14:49:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14843 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:49:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14764; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:48:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803172248.OAA14764@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 17, 98 02:30:30 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:48:39 -0800 (PST) Cc: molter@logic.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Simon Shapiro wrote: > > Thanx. I think sendmail is worth studying. Itis typical Unix thing. The > original set of goals was never fully studied (the let's hack code first. > Ask why later). The design happened along the way (efficiency, security, > scalability, and lack thereof). To add insult to injury, the configuration > ``language'' was optimized for the machine, not for the human, totally > missing the purpose of computers and sooftware (to serve us mortals). that's not really fair. sendmail was created under conditions very different from our own. considering the change that its seen, it holds up very well. please remember that in 1981 a vax 11/750 with rk-07 disk drives and 512MB of memory was a BIG deal and significant cost. wasnt 1 SpecInt originally supposed to approximate a single vax (dont pick nits ;) the box that i am using now overpowers that vax. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 15:21:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24175 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:21:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA24128 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 11987 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1998 23:28:06 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 17 Mar 1998 23:28:06 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803172248.OAA14764@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:28:06 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: molter@logic.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Mar-98 Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Simon Shapiro wrote: >> >> Thanx. I think sendmail is worth studying. Itis typical Unix thing. >> The >> original set of goals was never fully studied (the let's hack code >> first. >> Ask why later). The design happened along the way (efficiency, >> security, >> scalability, and lack thereof). To add insult to injury, the >> configuration >> ``language'' was optimized for the machine, not for the human, totally >> missing the purpose of computers and sooftware (to serve us mortals). > > that's not really fair. sendmail was created under > conditions very different from our own. considering > the change that its seen, it holds up very well. While your comments are generally valid, sendmail was ugly even then. It holds up because it has the capability to do all the things a Unix MTA needs to do, inertia, and lack of something else. > please remember that in 1981 a vax 11/750 with rk-07 > disk drives and 512MB of memory was a BIG deal and > significant cost. wasnt 1 SpecInt originally supposed to > approximate a single vax (dont pick nits ;) We used to call it MIPS, and for many years it was alleged that a vax 780 (not the whimpy 750 - had one of those - yuck!) is worth 1 MIPS. Someone ran SpecInt on one and found it really is worth only 0.5 MIPS. Architectually that was a beutiful little computer. Better than any PC, Intel processor, or whatever. > > the box that i am using now overpowers that vax. By many orders, I am sure, although your relative I/O bandwidth (and even relative memory bandwidth) are much slower. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 20:46:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05158 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:46:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05150 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:46:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA03736; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:46:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:46:17 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Simon Shapiro cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > On 17-Mar-98 jack wrote: > > .. > > > _IF_ the sendmail opponents bothered to read the announcement > > they only saw what they wanted to see and totally ignored the > > paragarph that states: > > .. > > Don't take it seriously Jack. This is all good hearted. Also, we are no > dummies and realize the grandfather clauses in US commerce, etc. I don't. Not your post specifically, but the tone of the thread has been to imply that with the release of a commercial version sendmail will immediately have to be ripped from the tree in its entirety. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 21:21:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08585 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:21:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA08548 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:21:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 21835 invoked from network); 18 Mar 1998 05:28:16 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 18 Mar 1998 05:28:16 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:28:16 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: jack Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-Mar-98 jack wrote: > On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > >> On 17-Mar-98 jack wrote: >> >> .. >> >> > _IF_ the sendmail opponents bothered to read the announcement >> > they only saw what they wanted to see and totally ignored the >> > paragarph that states: >> >> .. >> >> Don't take it seriously Jack. This is all good hearted. Also, we are >> no >> dummies and realize the grandfather clauses in US commerce, etc. > > I don't. Not your post specifically, but the tone of the thread > has been to imply that with the release of a commercial version > sendmail will immediately have to be ripped from the tree in its > entirety. And replaced with what? Can you imagine the flaming wars such a hint will cause? I'd rather (despite all I said about it) leave it in, in a functional state. It does what it claims, well enough to install any FreeBSD system and get it going. Once I have a free day (not devoted to family or sleep :-), I'll make a port of qmail. I also hear good things about a thing called VMail or some such. Anyone who cannot wait for sendmail to be gone can use the rm(1) command. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 22:16:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12880 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:16:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12837 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:16:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16353; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:14:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803180614.BAA16353@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: from jack at "Mar 17, 98 11:46:17 pm" To: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net (jack) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:14:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jack said: > > I don't. Not your post specifically, but the tone of the thread > has been to imply that with the release of a commercial version > sendmail will immediately have to be ripped from the tree in its > entirety. > As a member of -core, (but not officially speaking for -core) I can say that we *like* commercial software. However, we also don't want (and will not allow) a slippery slope to happen such that critical run-time pieces of FreeBSD will become commercially encumbered (such as GPL or worse.) If various components of UNIX clones can be enhanced and commercialized, so that the code is more useful, and people are willing to pay for the enhancements, I cannot see any problem with that. One of the things that makes FreeBSD valuable is that it is relatively unencumbered. The day that FreeBSD becomes significantly encumbered will be the day that I will no longer be able to justify working on it very much. I suspect that most other FreeBSD contributors will agree with me. It would be extremely self-destructive for significant parts of FreeBSD runtime to be encumbered. It just won't happen, or if so, it will likely kill the project. Note that one reason why Kirk's adoption of Ganger + Patt's work got developed (and completed) was because Kirk could justify his effort, by making some money. It would be terribly self destructive if the base FreeBSD system would be so encumbered that projects like Kirk's would never be able to happen. I believe that people like him need to keep the option to be able to profit on their work in various creative ways. So it is important to seperate "add-on's" from the base system. I think that it is cool that people can spend time and money to develop sophisticated add-on's. However, for that to be possible, there has to be a free software base for them to create the add-ons. Eventually, some of the add-on's will become closer to true BSD-free, but that will be after the developers make whatever $$$ they think that they can make. Again, we *must* keep the license(s) for the base system as simple and free as possible. Tricky or confusing licenses scare corporate lawyers (and smart business people) away. The FreeBSD core team can not allow tricky, confusing, or non-BSD-style licenses into the BASE system code. This attitude has nothing to do with philosophy, but mostly has to do with long term survival of the project. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 17 22:43:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16689 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:43:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA16638 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:42:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 23739 invoked from network); 18 Mar 1998 06:48:45 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 18 Mar 1998 06:48:45 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803180614.BAA16353@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:48:45 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (jack) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: > jack said: >> >> I don't. Not your post specifically, but the tone of the thread >> has been to imply that with the release of a commercial version >> sendmail will immediately have to be ripped from the tree in its >> entirety. John, I completely agree with every word you wrote below. I fail to see the exact fit to this particular thread, so please help me understand (as a core member who does not officially represent core in this matter :-) The way I understand the Sendmail announcement, is that new, future, versions will be commercially encumbered. What is in our tree is not (I cannot see how it could be). Now, if we choose to just maintain this code base, we have no problem. Sendmail has been around for some decades now and should be pretty stable. It is safe to assume that new, replacement versions are not essential anymore. If we choose to bring in a new, commercial version, then we will violate many spoken and unspoken rules of this wonderful project. If we find ourselves in a situation where we have to replace sendmail with unencumbered code, I volunteer to write it. I do not enjoy such work in particular, but will do it for the good of the project. I promise to make the code Berkeley license, before I write the first line. I am sure some better, smarter person will beat me to the punch, but you can have me in reserve. So where do you see us stand: a. No problem at all, business as usual b. We only sustain existing sendmail, and defer replacement until the code athrophies enough (via missing new functionality, or just age) c. We want to replace sendmail asap, but have a replacement in mind. d. We need to start a new MTA project. e. Something else which Simon did not think about. > As a member of -core, (but not officially speaking for -core) I can say > that we *like* commercial software. However, we also don't want (and > will not allow) a slippery slope to happen such that critical run-time > pieces of FreeBSD will become commercially encumbered (such as GPL or > worse.) > > If various components of UNIX clones can be enhanced and commercialized, > so that the code is more useful, and people are willing to pay for > the enhancements, I cannot see any problem with that. One of the things > that makes FreeBSD valuable is that it is relatively unencumbered. The > day that FreeBSD becomes significantly encumbered will be the day that > I will no longer be able to justify working on it very much. I suspect > that most other FreeBSD contributors will agree with me. > > It would be extremely self-destructive for significant parts of FreeBSD > runtime to be encumbered. It just won't happen, or if so, it will > likely kill the project. Note that one reason why Kirk's adoption > of Ganger + Patt's work got developed (and completed) was because Kirk > could justify his effort, by making some money. It would be terribly > self destructive if the base FreeBSD system would be so encumbered that > projects like Kirk's would never be able to happen. I believe that > people > like him need to keep the option to be able to profit on their work in > various creative ways. > > So it is important to seperate "add-on's" from the base system. I think > that it is cool that people can spend time and money to develop > sophisticated > add-on's. However, for that to be possible, there has to be a free > software > base for them to create the add-ons. Eventually, some of the add-on's > will > become closer to true BSD-free, but that will be after the developers > make > whatever $$$ they think that they can make. > > Again, we *must* keep the license(s) for the base system as simple and > free as possible. Tricky or confusing licenses scare corporate lawyers > (and smart business people) away. The FreeBSD core team can not > allow tricky, confusing, or non-BSD-style licenses into the BASE system > code. This attitude has nothing to do with philosophy, but mostly has > to do with long term survival of the project. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 18 04:22:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23009 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 04:22:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA23004; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 04:22:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20792; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:57:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803180757.CAA20792@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 17, 98 10:48:45 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:57:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jack@germanium.xtalwind.net From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Simon Shapiro said: > > The way I understand the Sendmail announcement, is that new, future, > versions will be commercially encumbered. What is in our tree is not (I > cannot see how it could be). > I don't see that is necessarily true. There will likely be a non-commercial as-is sendmail like today. There will also be a commercial sendmail. > > Now, if we choose to just maintain this code base, we have no problem. > Sendmail has been around for some decades now and should be pretty stable. > It is safe to assume that new, replacement versions are not essential > anymore. If we choose to bring in a new, commercial version, then we will > violate many spoken and unspoken rules of this wonderful project. > We will not bring in the commercial version, by default, probably even if it is free for FreeBSD use. People regularly like to hack on *BSD software, and additional encumberances just don't fit our model. > > If we find ourselves in a situation where we have to replace sendmail with > unencumbered code, I volunteer to write it. I do not enjoy such work in > particular, but will do it for the good of the project. I promise to make > the code Berkeley license, before I write the first line. > :-). I think that if sendmail does become significantly encumbered, a new mailer project would be a very good thing. It is likely that such a project either being a single person type thing, or a large (Apache) type thing would be a good marketing vehicle for whomever is involved. > > So where do you see us stand: > > a. No problem at all, business as usual > b. We only sustain existing sendmail, and defer replacement until the code > athrophies enough (via missing new functionality, or just age) > c. We want to replace sendmail asap, but have a replacement in mind. > d. We need to start a new MTA project. > e. Something else which Simon did not think about. > I think that right now, it is best to think in 'a' mode above. 'd' mode is a good thing, but something that one would want to think very seriously about before embarking on. I think that 'b' mode would happen only if Sendmail does become significantly encumbered. 'c' mode is probably as problematical as a commercial sendmail. Sendmail is the de-facto very (perhaps too) general standard, compared with other mailers. I think that we should stick with it as the default until this thing settles out. Again, if someone had lots of energy, 'd' can't be a bad thing. I suspect that if the effort is started, that it might become commercial, due to the significant effort that the project would entail. It seems that MTA replacements are one of those things that suck people in by their deceptive simplicity. I could be wrong, because I haven't really looked into MTA's myself (except when having to mess with Sendmail config files, which I like much less than writing Lex and Yacc programs.) Again, the above are only my opinions, and I don't have any interest in dissuading a new MTA project. I do think that we are due for a new (less general, but easier to configure and simpler) one, but I also don't think that Sendmail will be going the way of the evil empire. If it does, the problem will be solved, and I suspect that if you are interested, you and others interested in it would participate in or spearhead such an effort. The results of that effort could be adopted by all of the Free OSes (kind-of like Apache.) (Again, the above opinions are mine, and not necessarily that of -core.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 18 10:06:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22839 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:06:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enteract.com (ainvar@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA22763 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:06:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ainvar@enteract.com) From: ainvar@enteract.com Received: (from ainvar@localhost) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) id MAA14750; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:06:15 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980318120528.46995@enteract.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:05:30 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? References: <199803180614.BAA16353@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199803180614.BAA16353@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 01:14:43AM -0500 x-no-archive: yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 01:14:43AM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > As a member of -core, (but not officially speaking for -core) I can say > that we *like* commercial software. However, we also don't want (and > will not allow) a slippery slope to happen such that critical run-time > pieces of FreeBSD will become commercially encumbered (such as GPL or worse.) ... > Again, we *must* keep the license(s) for the base system as simple and > free as possible. Tricky or confusing licenses scare corporate lawyers > (and smart business people) away. The FreeBSD core team can not > allow tricky, confusing, or non-BSD-style licenses into the BASE system > code. This attitude has nothing to do with philosophy, but mostly has > to do with long term survival of the project. What about the GNU C Compiler? I would consider it part of the base system. Unfortunately it is very difficult to write a new C compiler, so it appears that we are stuck with GPL in at least one part.. Looking forward to a 100% BSD system.. -Matt --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNRAM2zb5Q8E1KAKlAQFh5AP/U5DIpWzULYwGc4QV8XrCUwnomJfZL0lA xyL4h6JPatrZ89gXLEmCllq1tWO/aKZHtswbwcHFa1Yl+34t0zs+nJODWgadDcTq SQ9rC1D2fk8Lg1OwGGFJzjO0CslSWC6BCFH2AFEE9bQ6KLTrMOmStPeF8x3H2AO/ mkuXQl9WH7s= =tTGB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 18 10:12:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24195 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from geocities.co.jp ([210.153.89.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24188 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:12:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from taroiwa@geocities.co.jp) Received: from 675QK1978 (a032211.ap.plala.or.jp [210.153.32.211]) by geocities.co.jp (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA27734 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:11:44 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <00b601bd5299$995b18c0$d32099d2@675QK1978> From: "Taro" To: Subject: subscribe Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:13:47 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BD52E5.083F5A80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BD52E5.083F5A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit subscribe ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BD52E5.083F5A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BD52E5.083F5A80-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 18 10:18:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25762 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from geocities.co.jp ([210.153.89.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25418 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:17:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from taroiwa@geocities.co.jp) Received: from 675QK1978 (a032211.ap.plala.or.jp [210.153.32.211]) by geocities.co.jp (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA29376 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:17:06 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <00db01bd529a$59330900$d32099d2@675QK1978> From: "Taro" To: Subject: unsubscribe Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:19:09 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BD52E5.C8174AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BD52E5.C8174AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BD52E5.C8174AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BD52E5.C8174AC0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 18 10:20:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26119 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:20:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rm2.plala.or.jp (root@rm2.plala.or.jp [210.153.0.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26095 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from taroiwa@maroon.plala.or.jp) Received: from mld1.tky.plala.or.jp by rm2.plala.or.jp (mst980206) with ESMTP id DAA10545 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:20:04 +0900 (JST) Received: by mld1.tky.plala.or.jp (8.8.8/3.4W5/tky971211) with ESMTP id DAA07106; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:20:03 +0900 (JST) Received: by maroon.tky.plala.or.jp (8.8.8/3.4W5/usr970904) id DAA01256; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:20:03 +0900 (JST) Received: by maroon.tky.plala.or.jp (8.8.8/3.5W/970109) with SMTP id DAA01250; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:20:01 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <00ef01bd529a$b2720520$d32099d2@675QK1978> From: "Taro" To: Subject: subscribe freebsd-chat Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:21:38 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00EB_01BD52E6.21457E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01BD52E6.21457E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01BD52E6.21457E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01BD52E6.21457E00-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 18 10:30:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28162 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:30:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28155 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA03354 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:30:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Spam containment suggestion Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My spam filters got a lot more effective yesterday (doing very demented and demanding checks like an AOL dialup *MUST* relay through .*.mx.aol.com, and must be From:.*@aol.com) and the best check so far seems to be to insist that if something comes to me through a list (as checked by the Sender: line, that the name of the list must be on the To: or CC: line. Would this be a reasonable (and possible) restriction to be implemented by the list itself? I really don't see a good use for BCCing mailing lists, and would be more effective than me trying to do the same, because I don't know when a new mail alias for @freebsd.org is going to pop up, or when a new mailing list will go up. On a side note, unfortunately, I can't do this on all my email, since I am on quite a few informal lists. However, I can most certainly do this for my webmaster@.* addresses, since those should never be BCC'ed to me. On another sidenote, this filter tripped me up a time or two, mostly because it seems people use different addresses for the lists: @freebsd.org, @hub.freebsd.org, and @freefall.freebsd.org, so far. Just letting you know in case anyone else decides to filter the same way. My current procmail rule: :0E * ^Sender: owner-freebsd-[a-z]+@FreeBSD\.ORG * !^(to|cc):.* (freebsd-)?[a-z]+@(hub\.|freefall\.)?freebsd\.org { SPAMMER="via FreeBSD list but not to FreeBSD list" LOG="[$SPAMMER]" } An enumeration of the Freebsd lists would probably be better than [a-z]+, since that will still match friends@, but this will catch the spammers that use periods and numbers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 18 10:46:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01519 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:46:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01506 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:46:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA03541 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:46:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:46:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam containment suggestion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Eric J. Schwertfeger wrote: > :0E > * ^Sender: owner-freebsd-[a-z]+@FreeBSD\.ORG > * !^(to|cc):.* (freebsd-)?[a-z]+@(hub\.|freefall\.)?freebsd\.org > { > SPAMMER="via FreeBSD list but not to FreeBSD list" > LOG="[$SPAMMER]" > } Fart! tested it for a couple of messages before I posted my latest revision, but didn't test enough *snicker*. It doesn't catch the case where the address of the mailing list is in <>, '', or ""; So, I changed the second line to * !^(to|cc):.*[ <\'\"](freebsd-)?[a-z]+@(hub\.|freefall\.)?freebsd\.org I'll shut up now, until someone shows interest in the idea. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 18 12:22:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14291 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14284 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:22:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05780; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:22:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803182022.PAA05780@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? In-Reply-To: <19980318120528.46995@enteract.com> from "ainvar@enteract.com" at "Mar 18, 98 12:05:30 pm" To: ainvar@enteract.com Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:22:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ainvar@enteract.com said: > > What about the GNU C Compiler? I would consider it part of the base > system. Unfortunately it is very difficult to write a new C compiler, > so it appears that we are stuck with GPL in at least one part.. > > Looking forward to a 100% BSD system.. > The GNU C compiler is almost never needed to be modified (so no substantial effort is encumbered by GPL.) Additionally, the GNU C compiler is not always needed for a runtime or embedded system. One of the interesting applications for FreeBSD is in embedded controller apps. In those kinds of apps, even $100 for an OS can be too much, yet GPL and other encumbering licenses (please, no flames) can screw up a business model. Frankly, it is time to draw a line and stop the incursion of more encumberances into the system. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 19 03:23:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA08552 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:23:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08523 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA23904 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 06:22:38 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199803191122.GAA23904@hda.hda.com> Subject: Wall Street Journal coverage To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 06:22:37 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD made the cover of the Marketing section of the Wall Street Journal, as a bullet item in a "Why Pay Retail or Even Wholesale?" table. The full list was Apache, Linux, X, GNU (off base there - they didn't grok it), FreeBSD and Perl. Unfortunately they provided no URLs. The article is on Apache - "Apache's Free Software Gives Microsoft, Netscape Fits". Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 19 05:05:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18932 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:05:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA18921 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:05:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05290; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:05:33 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from kuku) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:05:33 +0100 (MET) From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199803191305.OAA05290@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE> To: de-bsd-chat@mail.de.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: CeBit - any FreeBSDers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been asked (off-line) whether WC and/or any FreeBSDers will be at CeBit 98 (Hannover/Germany) this year. Any FreeBSD related activities? -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 19 10:09:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06977 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:09:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06746 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:09:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id TAA15381; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:00:25 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA21123; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:51:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980319185149.62319@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:51:49 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Christoph Kukulies , de-bsd-chat@mail.de.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CeBit - any FreeBSDers? References: <199803191305.OAA05290@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199803191305.OAA05290@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>; from Christoph Kukulies on Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 02:05:33PM +0100 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 02:05:33PM +0100, Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > I've been asked (off-line) whether WC and/or any FreeBSDers > will be at CeBit 98 (Hannover/Germany) this year. > > Any FreeBSD related activities? No. Or ? -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 19 13:44:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11482 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:44:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paris.dppl.com (qmailr@paris.dppl.com [205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA11347 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:43:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yds@dppl.com) Received: (qmail 15711 invoked from network); 19 Mar 1998 21:43:07 -0000 Received: from ichiban.ingress.com (HELO ichiban) (205.230.64.31) by paris.dppl.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 1998 21:43:07 -0000 Message-ID: <019101bd5380$00233ab0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> From: "Yarema" To: Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:43:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >So where do you see us stand: > >a. No problem at all, business as usual >b. We only sustain existing sendmail, and defer replacement until the code > athrophies enough (via missing new functionality, or just age) >c. We want to replace sendmail asap, but have a replacement in mind. >d. We need to start a new MTA project. >e. Something else which Simon did not think about. The way I see it is send mail will continue to be free. the commercial sendmail will be akin to Stronghold (a commercial, secure apache w/enhancements) as opposed to free sendmail which is akin to the free version of apache. I'm kinda fond of exim as a replacement for sendmail cuz of its compatibility with sendmail /etc/aliases and command line switches. These two considerations I feel are most important for an MTA to qualify as a drop-in replacement for sendmail. However Exim is encumbered under GPL. Which blows it out of the running as a base component of any *BSD system. Qmail is a great MTA, but in no way does it qualify as a drop in replacement for sendmail. One, it does not deliver to /var/mail, only to $HOME. That's a good thing for security, but lousy if you have lots of email users without a home directory. qmail by default does not use .forward, /etc/aliases and I don't know the extent of it's sendmail command line compatibility. On the other hand qmail does have a good license: ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/www/softwarelaw.html :) Or at least I like the authors interpretation of the law. Rather than replacing sendmail I would prefer to see /etc/rc* files modified in such a way as to make it easier to replace it with another MTA in a clean fashion. i.e. without having to hack the /etc/rc* files too much. -- Yarema To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 19 19:57:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13242 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:57:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13230 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:57:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15770; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:10:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980319231045.26875@vmunix.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:10:45 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: Yarema , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? References: <019101bd5380$00233ab0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <019101bd5380$00233ab0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com>; from Yarema on Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 04:43:05PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 04:43:05PM -0500, Yarema wrote: > >So where do you see us stand: > > > >a. No problem at all, business as usual > >b. We only sustain existing sendmail, and defer replacement until the code > > athrophies enough (via missing new functionality, or just age) > >c. We want to replace sendmail asap, but have a replacement in mind. > >d. We need to start a new MTA project. > >e. Something else which Simon did not think about. > > > The way I see it is send mail will continue to be free. the commercial > sendmail will be akin to Stronghold (a commercial, secure apache > w/enhancements) as opposed to free sendmail which is akin to the free > version of apache. Agreed. I think this is a fairly close analogy. (i.e. apache/stronghold) > I'm kinda fond of exim as a replacement for sendmail cuz of its > compatibility with sendmail /etc/aliases and command line switches. These > two considerations I feel are most important for an MTA to qualify as a > drop-in replacement for sendmail. However Exim is encumbered under GPL. > Which blows it out of the running as a base component of any *BSD system. VMailer looks very promosing in this regard. It't not GPL (I may be wrong on this), and it's designed to be a drop in replacement for sendmail. Other good points include performance - right now it's faster than qmail, which is already significantly faster than sendmail for certain tasks. Also, I noticed that the author's test platform is FreeBSD, which certainly bodes well for it being shipped with the base FreeBSD system. I have no idea how far along VMailer has come, and if it can loose the "alpha" name tag, but I think it will certainly be a MTA with a great future on FreeBSD. My $.02 :-) -Mark > Qmail is a great MTA, but in no way does it qualify as a drop in replacement > for sendmail. One, it does not deliver to /var/mail, only to $HOME. That's a > good thing for security, but lousy if you have lots of email users without a > home directory. qmail by default does not use .forward, /etc/aliases and I > don't know the extent of it's sendmail command line compatibility. On the > other hand qmail does have a good license: > ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/www/softwarelaw.html :) Or at least I like the > authors interpretation of the law. > > Rather than replacing sendmail I would prefer to see /etc/rc* files modified > in such a way as to make it easier to replace it with another MTA in a clean > fashion. i.e. without having to hack the /etc/rc* files too much. > > -- > Yarema > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 19 19:59:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13554 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:59:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA13508 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFsb8-0001JZ-00; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:35:58 -0800 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:35:58 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: "Lee Crites (AEI)" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Majordomo results: who (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Lee Crites (AEI) wrote: This doesn't belong on freebsd-hackers. Moved to chat. > I got a message which said to check with so-and-so about some > fbsd information. "No problem," I think, "I'll just ask > majordomo for the addresses and send him an email." Why would you do that? Every thinking admin turns WHO off on Majordomo anyhow. Besides, it isn't guarrenteed to have real names so that you can match "so-and-so" with an address on freebsd-hackers. If it is FreeBSD developer, you are probably better off using finger against freebsd.org Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 20 01:35:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25766 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 01:35:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25742 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 01:35:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from J.G.E.Backus@urc.tue.nl) Received: from asterix.urc.tue.nl [131.155.5.10] by mailhost.tue.nl (8.8.8) id KAA10619 (ESMTP). Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:34:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from jbackus@localhost by asterix.urc.tue.nl (8.8.8) id KAA10646. Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:34:58 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980320103458.B8991@asterix.urc.tue.nl> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:34:58 +0100 From: Jos Backus To: Yarema , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? References: <019101bd5380$00233ab0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.9 In-Reply-To: <019101bd5380$00233ab0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com>; from Yarema on Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 04:43:05PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 04:43:05PM -0500, Yarema wrote: > Qmail is a great MTA, but in no way does it qualify as a drop in replacement > for sendmail. Hm... > One, it does not deliver to /var/mail, only to $HOME. Delivery to /var/mail has security problems, but despite this qmail can easily be configured to do it. See ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/www/qmail/vsm.txt. > That's a good thing for security, but lousy if you have lots of email users > without a home directory. You can deal with these in an even more flexible manner using the qmail-users mechanism. > qmail by default does not use .forward, Right. There is the dot-forward package for those who want/need it. But .qmail files have much richer (and more well-defined) semantics than .forward files. > /etc/aliases qmsmac handles these, in a more generic fashion even. The bottom line is that qmail's design is very modular, which explains its flexibility. It is also easy to set up, which can be a boon to novices. > and I don't know the extent of it's sendmail command line compatibility. I'd rate it being pretty good and sufficient for my needs... > On the other hand qmail does have a good license: > ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/www/softwarelaw.html :) Or at least I like the > authors interpretation of the law. :-) > Rather than replacing sendmail I would prefer to see /etc/rc* files modified > in such a way as to make it easier to replace it with another MTA in a clean > fashion. i.e. without having to hack the /etc/rc* files too much. A good idea at any rate. Cheers, -- Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ "Reliability means never _/ _/ _/ having to say you're sorry." _/ _/_/_/ -- D. J. Bernstein _/ _/ _/ _/ jbackus@urc.tue.nl _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 20 09:05:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00664 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:05:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paris.dppl.com (qmailr@paris.dppl.com [205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00588 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:05:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yds@dppl.com) Received: (qmail 12065 invoked from network); 20 Mar 1998 17:04:58 -0000 Received: from ichiban.ingress.com (HELO ichiban) (205.230.64.31) by paris.dppl.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 1998 17:04:58 -0000 Message-ID: <006d01bd5422$4fba42b0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> From: "Yarema" To: Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:04:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Mayo wrote: >VMailer looks very promosing in this regard. It't not GPL (I may >be wrong on this), and it's designed to be a drop in replacement for >sendmail. Other good points include performance - right now it's faster >than qmail, which is already significantly faster than sendmail for >certain tasks. Also, I noticed that the author's test platform is FreeBSD, >which certainly bodes well for it being shipped with the base FreeBSD >system. VMailer is definitely NOT GPL: http://www.clark.net/~proberts/vmailer/COPYRIGHT.html Looks like a very BSD like license from IBM. :) They (IBM Research) seem to have the right attitude about distribution: "If you don't give it away, you might as well throw it away." I went through www.VMailer.org site and it seems like Wietse Venema is addressing all the issues I was bringing up about qmail. I run qmail on my own machines, which are rather lightly loaded, so switching MTAs is not such a big deal. I was pushing for my employer (an ISP) to give me a green light to use qmail on the his mail servers. The primary motivation being to cut down on spam and unauthorized relaying. After comparing qmail with exim we decided on exim. Which seems to have been designed with all the anti-spam tricks built in. Now I'm perfectly aware that both sendmail and qmail can use the RBL http://maps.vix.com/rbl/ but they both have to be patched to do so. Both are harder to configure against unauthorized relaying. And sendmail is just inefficient and prone to security bugs. qmail is probably the most efficient mailer around, which is why Wietse regards it as VMailer's only serious competitor. qmail's author seems to suffer from the "not invented here" syndrome. Many of his improvement's are good, but he tries to force you into using them rather than providing a traditional sendmail-like environment as the default. If he did the latter there might not have been a need for VMailer. Given the abundance of MTA I think it's insane to even consider writing yet another one specifically for the FreeBSD project. I don't even think replacing sendmail as the default is worth considering. Who'd wanna deal with all those lost souls who spend half a lifetime learning and customizing sendmail.cf whining after an upgrade? Making it easier to plug in a replacement for sendmail is very worth while, me thinks. Perhaps even offering a choice of MTAs during a fresh install. -- Yarema To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 20 10:31:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21146 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:31:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21038 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:30:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id TAA13179 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:30:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta2/keltia-2.14/nospam) id TAA04744; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:30:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980320193025.A4717@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:30:25 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <006d01bd5422$4fba42b0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i In-Reply-To: <006d01bd5422$4fba42b0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com>; from Yarema on Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 12:04:57PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4121 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Yarema: > use the RBL http://maps.vix.com/rbl/ but they both have to be patched to do > so. Both are harder to configure against unauthorized relaying. And sendmail Well, that's not true for 8.8.8+Assman's rules and 8.9 (which by default forbid relaying); use of the RBL is only FEATURE(rbl)dnl # 8.9.0 and define(`_MAPS_RBL_', 1)dnl # 8.8.8 + check.tar away. 8.9.0 has one very cool feature for hosts that are listed as MX for many domains: if you use the following, you'll authorize relay from all every domain you're MX for: FEATURE(relay_based_on_MX) One site I'm administrator for has a lot of UUCP connected machines and the above feature makes very easy to accept mail for all the various domains our users have without having to list every one of them... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 20 10:39:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23847 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:39:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23816 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:39:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id MAA07412; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:39:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id MAA05082; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:39:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980320123926.03978@mcs.net> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:39:26 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? References: <006d01bd5422$4fba42b0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> <19980320193025.A4717@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <19980320193025.A4717@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 07:30:25PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 07:30:25PM +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Yarema: > > use the RBL http://maps.vix.com/rbl/ but they both have to be patched to do > > so. Both are harder to configure against unauthorized relaying. And sendmail > > Well, that's not true for 8.8.8+Assman's rules and 8.9 (which by default > forbid relaying); use of the RBL is only > > FEATURE(rbl)dnl # 8.9.0 > > and > > define(`_MAPS_RBL_', 1)dnl # 8.8.8 + check.tar > > away. > > 8.9.0 has one very cool feature for hosts that are listed as MX for many > domains: if you use the following, you'll authorize relay from all every > domain you're MX for: > > FEATURE(relay_based_on_MX) > > One site I'm administrator for has a lot of UUCP connected machines and the > above feature makes very easy to accept mail for all the various domains > our users have without having to list every one of them... That's dangerous. How long will it take the spammers to figure this one out and start listing MX records? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly / All Lines K56Flex/DOV | NEW! Corporate ISDN Prices dropped by up to 50%! Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 20 12:15:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14867 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:15:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA14843 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 25386 invoked from network); 20 Mar 1998 20:21:51 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) (@127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 20 Mar 1998 20:21:51 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-031298 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803180757.CAA20792@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:21:51 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Cc: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry for the delay. I was out of town. I think we have nothing to worry about. If my help is needed, let me know. Simon On 18-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: > Simon Shapiro said: >> >> The way I understand the Sendmail announcement, is that new, future, >> versions will be commercially encumbered. What is in our tree is not (I >> cannot see how it could be). >> > I don't see that is necessarily true. There will likely be a > non-commercial > as-is sendmail like today. There will also be a commercial sendmail. > >> >> Now, if we choose to just maintain this code base, we have no problem. >> Sendmail has been around for some decades now and should be pretty >> stable. >> It is safe to assume that new, replacement versions are not essential >> anymore. If we choose to bring in a new, commercial version, then we >> will >> violate many spoken and unspoken rules of this wonderful project. >> > We will not bring in the commercial version, by default, probably even if > it is free for FreeBSD use. People regularly like to hack on *BSD > software, > and additional encumberances just don't fit our model. > >> >> If we find ourselves in a situation where we have to replace sendmail >> with >> unencumbered code, I volunteer to write it. I do not enjoy such work in >> particular, but will do it for the good of the project. I promise to >> make >> the code Berkeley license, before I write the first line. >> >:-). I think that if sendmail does become significantly encumbered, a new > mailer project would be a very good thing. It is likely that such a > project > either being a single person type thing, or a large (Apache) type thing > would > be a good marketing vehicle for whomever is involved. > >> >> So where do you see us stand: >> >> a. No problem at all, business as usual >> b. We only sustain existing sendmail, and defer replacement until the >> code >> athrophies enough (via missing new functionality, or just age) >> c. We want to replace sendmail asap, but have a replacement in mind. >> d. We need to start a new MTA project. >> e. Something else which Simon did not think about. >> > I think that right now, it is best to think in 'a' mode above. 'd' mode > is a good thing, but something that one would want to think very > seriously > about before embarking on. I think that 'b' mode would happen only if > Sendmail does become significantly encumbered. 'c' mode is probably as > problematical as a commercial sendmail. > > Sendmail is the de-facto very (perhaps too) general standard, compared > with > other mailers. I think that we should stick with it as the default until > this thing settles out. Again, if someone had lots of energy, 'd' can't > be a > bad thing. I suspect that if the effort is started, that it might become > commercial, due to the significant effort that the project would entail. > > It seems that MTA replacements are one of those things that suck people > in by their deceptive simplicity. I could be wrong, because I haven't > really looked into MTA's myself (except when having to mess with Sendmail > config files, which I like much less than writing Lex and Yacc programs.) > > Again, the above are only my opinions, and I don't have any interest > in dissuading a new MTA project. I do think that we are due for a new > (less general, but easier to configure and simpler) one, but I also don't > think that Sendmail will be going the way of the evil empire. If it > does, > the problem will be solved, and I suspect that if you are interested, > you and others interested in it would participate in or spearhead such > an effort. The results of that effort could be adopted by all of the > Free OSes (kind-of like Apache.) > > (Again, the above opinions are mine, and not necessarily that of -core.) > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 20 16:10:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07272 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:10:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paris.dppl.com (qmailr@paris.dppl.com [205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07265 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yds@dppl.com) Received: (qmail 17213 invoked from network); 21 Mar 1998 00:09:56 -0000 Received: from ichiban.ingress.com (HELO ichiban) (205.230.64.31) by paris.dppl.com with SMTP; 21 Mar 1998 00:09:56 -0000 Message-ID: <007301bd545d$ad997910$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> From: "Yarema" To: Subject: Re: Sendmail going commercial, and ? Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:09:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> 8.9.0 has one very cool feature for hosts that are listed as MX for many >> domains: if you use the following, you'll authorize relay from all every >> domain you're MX for: >> >> FEATURE(relay_based_on_MX) >> > >That's dangerous. > >How long will it take the spammers to figure this one out and start listing >MX records? Fortunately, I don't believe most spammers run DNS servers. -- Yarema To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 20 17:29:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19382 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:29:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19356; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:29:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15983; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:59:35 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA11241; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:59:35 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980321115935.52589@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:59:35 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer Reply-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net> <19980319212405.55520@welearn.com.au> <35118D5A.6CA23B79@dal.net> <19980320223201.63694@welearn.com.au> <19980320132440.15913@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980320132440.15913@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 01:24:40PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat. This isn't really a documentation issue any more) On Fri, 20 March 1998 at 13:24:40 +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 10:32:02PM +1100, Sue Blake wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 01:25:46PM -0800, Studded wrote: >> >>> Errrr... no. At least for me if I have something to say to the newbies >>> list about docs I will say it directly to them and ask them to respond >>> directly to me, or to this list as appropriate. >> >> This threat is unwelcome. If you are saying that you intend to make this as >> difficult as you possibly can, to the point of acting wilfully against the >> purposes of a mailing list, then I suggest you have picked the wrong person, >> the wrong list, and the wrong day. You did your best to stop the newbies >> from having their own list, and now you want to make use of them for your >> own convenience at the risk of destroying their enclave. > > So you're basically saying that if I were to send a message to > newbies@freebsd.org (or whatever the list is called - it's not in the > handbook, which it _should_ be) with > --- > (snip) > --- > > then I'm invading your space and attempting to exploit you? I don't agree with Sue's terminology, but I can understand what she's trying to achieve. I don't necessarily agree with the division of the mailing lists, but during the discussion we had about this on -chat a few weeks back, it became apparent that there could be a need for a mailing list where newbies could discuss without being preempted by experienced users. Sue has described her own concerns in this matter in vivid detail; maybe there are others like her. I'm still not convinced that this is going to work. For example, at the moment I notice a significant resistance to the policy "talk on -newbies, questions on -questions". If the -newbies list stays, it will probably have a permanent effect on -questions and possibly on -hackers and -chat. In addition, a number of self-styled newbies (including Sue :-) don't seem to be as newbie as I would have expected. But I think that it needs to find its own feet, and as a result I'm (currently) respecting Sue's wishes and not making my presence known on the list. I think we need to review this in, say, a week's time. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 21 22:12:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12410 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:12:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from subcellar.mwci.net (subcellar.mwci.net [205.254.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12395 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:12:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jwalt@mwci.net) Received: from firewall.mwci.net (firewall.mwci.net [205.254.160.134]) by subcellar.mwci.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA26097 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:12:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:12:45 -0600 (CST) From: Jesse Walters To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: mp3 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a couple quick questions about mp3's. Currently I am using amp to play my mp3's and for a command line player, I have to admit, it works rather well. I was however, looking for something in x. I noticed that x11amp, which is a take off of winamp, has been released for linux. Anyone have any good suggestions? Also do you know of any freebsd based software that would let me actually edit the mp3 to create remixes etc. Thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesse Walters http://users.mwci.net/~jwalt Tech Support/Customer Service Rep. jwalt@mwci.net Midwest Communications Inc. 241 Main St. Dubuque, Ia 52002 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Save the whales...collect the whole set. Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math. Always remember you are unique, just like everybody else. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 21 22:14:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13047 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:14:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13041 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18594; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803220614.WAA18594@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jesse Walters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mp3 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:12:45 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:14:43 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Try posting on multimedia@freebsd.org Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message