From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 00:44:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13501 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:44:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13496 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:44:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-102.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.230]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id CAA22425; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:43:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id CAA29083; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:44:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628074407.ZM29082@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 07:44:07 +0000 In-Reply-To: Sue Blake "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 11:03am) References: <980627053718.ZM23338@darkstar.connect.com> <19980627130610.B26300@mooseriver.com> <980627210408.ZM28181@darkstar.connect.com> <19980628110349.56353@welearn.com.au> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Sue Blake , Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: arthur , jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, Greg Lehey , John Birrell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, malartre@aei.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 11:03am, Sue Blake wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:04:08PM +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > Knowing what the animal is all about before entering its' environment > > enables you to minimize the risk of harm and allow the animal to live > > right along side of you. > > This should be stated at the top of the FreeBSD web page. > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Sue Blake I think you are on to something here. Regards. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 01:18:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15876 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:18:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15871 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:18:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-102.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.230]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id DAA19498; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:18:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id DAA29170; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:19:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628081907.ZM29169@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:19:07 +0000 In-Reply-To: David Kelly "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 27, 5:45pm) References: <199806272245.RAA20572@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 27, 5:45pm, David Kelly wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > "Frank Pawlak" writes: > > > > Even the deer, a relatively small animal during the rut can pose a > > danger. And that leads me to my point. Knowing what the animal is > > all about before entering its' environment enables you to minimize the > > risk of harm and allow the animal to live right along side of you. > > Rutting has very little to do with deer and automobiles. "Headlights" > are the cause of automobile/deer unintentional interfaces. Its common > for a deer to freeze staring into the oncoming headlights. Often the > deer is on the side of the road, freezes, doesn't panic until the > automobile is very close. Then jumps in front of the automobile. You are right about the effects of headlights on causing deer to freeze. However male deer are more active and agressive during the rutting season. I was speaking in terms of personal danger, being in the woods during the rutting season, and not necessarily deer and and cars. > > Lets cure this problem once and for all, lets outlaw headlights. > > "the deer, a relatively small animal" Hah! You've never seen a typical > Detroit-built American Land Barge totaled by one little deer? One > little deer can easily destroy the bumper, headlights, grill, hood, > fender and windshield. If the roof line gets bent too, the vehicle is > usually totaled. Hah! try running into a moose sometime, Guaranteed the damage will be greater. Larger animal = greater damage. Not too difficult. > > There is probably not a single Wal-Mart or K-Mart in the continental US > that doesn't sell "deer whistles" to be mounted on your front bumper. > The theory is a deer will run from the right high pitched whistle as > some vehicles were observed to be hit by deer very rarely, and guessed > this was due to their sound. I am well aware of these devices and their purpose. I have heard that they do work. I have racked up about 100,000 miles driving between Minneapolis and Milwaukee, a 750 mile round trip, and have yet to hit a deer. That area of the state has a very heavy deer population. I don't use whistles. Maybe I am just luckey or careful and have some knowledge of what to look for when deer are present. A lot of those miles were driven in the 90 mph range. Course I also drive race cars, not as much as I use to, which may account for alertness and quick reactions. Frank > > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from David Kelly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 01:44:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA17603 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:44:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17598 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-102.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.230]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id DAA25747; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:44:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id DAA29193; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:44:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628084411.ZM29192@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:44:11 +0000 In-Reply-To: David Kelly "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 27, 5:29pm) References: <199806272229.RAA20531@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 27, 5:29pm, David Kelly wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > Josef Grosch writes: > > When I lived in northern Minnesota, around Ely and Duluth, I drove a truck > > that had the very large dent in the side where a full grown male moose had > > rammed it. This moose took offense to me being in his territory and chased > > me. The only think that save me from being trampled was my truck. A moose > > is not an animal to be trifled with, especially so during the rut. > > Boy! Its a good thing that moose didn't have one of those guns some seem > to think there are too many of. In the fit of rage that moose might have > hurt somebody, if only he had a gun. > > I counter there are too many computers. They are too cheap. Any damn > fool can buy one and find instructions on how to wreck havoc with it. > Doesn't even require a license. > > All sarcasm aside, neither a gun, computer, high powered automobile, (I > own a number of each), or alcohol are the causes of certain societal > ills. Some people just have problems and happen to use high powered > tools to exercise that problem. The tool doesn't cause the problem. If > one tool is scarce, another will be found. Or invented. > > My biggest frustration is when I observe government, doctors, corporate > management, educators, etc., treat the symptoms of a problem rather > than search for the problem itself. Gun control only treats the > symptoms, not the problem itself. > > I think firearms ought to be taught in school, along with sex education, > and driver education. After school hours I fired more rounds with my Dad > while in elementary school and high school than I've fired in the past > 20 years. I grew up with a respect for firearms that my non-shooting > schoolmates have demonstrated they lack. It wasn't terribly uncommon for > one to swear at a car who had just cut them sort, "If I had a gun I'd > blow him away!" Don't know of any schoolmates who have aquired a gun > and "blown somebody away", but such a thought was almost unimaginable > to me. And would be to anybody who had firearms training from my Dad. Funny thing about all of this is that in my original post I mentioned nothing about gun control. Those words were put in my mouth by someone else who wanted to read something into my post that may or may not have been there. I took no stand on that issue one way or the other. However, I happen to agree with you that it is not the gun that kills, it is the idiot that can't exercise self control or good judgement that is the killer. I am talking personal responsibility here. I too grew up with guns and would not consider useing it on another human being, except in some rather exceptional conditions. You were fortunate enough to be brought up in a caring, loving home and were taught personal responsibility, respect for other people and firearms. I have no problem with the right to bear arms. The rub is who has them are what type of weapon they are carrying. Certain types of weapons are specifically designed to kill humans and are useless for any other purpose. Assault rifles and big bore automatic hand guns all are in that category I too have very extensive weapons training, both as a civilian and in the military. I also have extensive experience with the result of the use of these weapons during heavy combat in Vietnam. So to convince me that these types of weapons belong in the hands of the general population; well you better bring your jug and your lunch because you have an all day job a head of you. Frank > > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from David Kelly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 01:48:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18238 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:48:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18212 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:48:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-102.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.230]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id DAA23144; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:48:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id DAA29200; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:48:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628084830.ZM29199@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:48:30 +0000 In-Reply-To: Tim Vanderhoek "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 1:28am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Tim Vanderhoek , Gary Kline Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: drifter@stratos.net, eivind@yes.no, wes@softweyr.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 1:28am, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Gary Kline wrote: > > > Rather than mess around, we need a new paradigm in > > the way of personal weaponry. I suggest something > > like the Personal Grenade. Something that would > > take adversaries out at, oh, say, 20 feet and leave > > oneself entirely safe. > > Naw, we just need to be patient. Technology will solve the > problem. Eventually all Americans will have little nuclear > missiles, and then all of North America will be in perfect peace, > since everyone knows that mutual armament is the solution to > violence. > > > -- > Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! > tIM...HOEk >-- End of excerpt from Tim Vanderhoek Finally a man that has learned something from world history. How did you manage to do that? Maybe you could get the word out to the general population... save you breath. I do bow to you my friend. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 01:53:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18711 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:53:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18706 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:53:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-102.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.230]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id DAA23183; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:53:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id DAA29208; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:53:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628085313.ZM29207@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:53:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: allen campbell "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 27, 8:49pm) References: <199806280249.UAA18545@struct.> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: allen campbell Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 27, 8:49pm, allen campbell wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > > > >where it is considered OK to murder people. (If you, the reader, say > > > >to yourself that you don't consider it OK, then you'd better be > > > >actively opposing the use of death penalty - otherwise you've just > > > >turned your logic off in what you say to yourself) > > > > > > This statement presumes that execution is murder. Execution is a lawful > > > punishment in the United States. > > > > > > Not everything that causes death is murder. Not even everything that > > > causes a wrongful death is murder. In the United States we divvy out > > > justice based on "mens rea" or criminal intent. A cold blooded killer is > > > guilty of a capital offense whereas a negligent causer of death is guilty > > > of a less than capital offensel. > > > > > > The people of the United States reserve the lawful right to punish the > > > capital offender by death. Until the people change this law, execution > > > will not be murder. > > > > > > It is never OK to murder people. No one in the US will say it is. Of > > > course, as you can see by my discussion, which act consitutes a murder is > > > subject to debate. > > > > > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > > > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > > > | 206-633-5994 > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > >-- End of excerpt from Jason C. Wells > > > > Your right Jason, it is all in the deffinitions isn't it. > > > > Frank > > consitutes -> constitutes > deffinitions -> definitions > > This is a private reply. Consider using ispell. > > Allen Campbell > allenc@verinet.com >-- End of excerpt from allen campbell Private reply! Learn to read headers. BTW, piss off mate! Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 02:09:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20797 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:09:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20792 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:09:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17475; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:09:21 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:09:20 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: David Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <199806280435.OAA19545@cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David, I know exactly what you mean. People who are taught firearm respect are, in my opinion, less likely to do something foolish or accidental with firearms. > > ... but such a thought was almost unimaginable > > to me. And would be to anybody who had firearms training from my Dad. > > He'd shoot you if you had a thought like that? > sorry, I have to take this remark a little offside. In my opinion responsible firearm training, especially from a respected elder (dad) is worth more than gun laws, steep fines and community outrage. Amdrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 02:12:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21252 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:12:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21232 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:12:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17545; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:12:10 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:12:10 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: Frank Pawlak cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <980628081907.ZM29169@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Hah! try running into a moose sometime, Guaranteed the damage will be greater. > Larger animal = greater damage. Not too difficult. Actually wombats cause a lot of damage. They're only about a foot high but quite solidly built. They can move just fast enough to get in front of you and demolish your front suspension. Andrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 02:17:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21860 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic11.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21832 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:17:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id CAA03641; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980628021659.A3265@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:16:59 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Frank Pawlak , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199806272245.RAA20572@nospam.hiwaay.net> <980628081907.ZM29169@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <980628081907.ZM29169@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 08:19:07AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 08:19:07AM +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > On Jun 27, 5:45pm, David Kelly wrote: > > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > > "Frank Pawlak" writes: > > > > > > Even the deer, a relatively small animal during the rut can pose a > > > danger. And that leads me to my point. Knowing what the animal is > > > all about before entering its' environment enables you to minimize the > > > risk of harm and allow the animal to live right along side of you. > > > > Rutting has very little to do with deer and automobiles. "Headlights" > > are the cause of automobile/deer unintentional interfaces. Its common > > for a deer to freeze staring into the oncoming headlights. Often the > > deer is on the side of the road, freezes, doesn't panic until the > > automobile is very close. Then jumps in front of the automobile. > > You are right about the effects of headlights on causing deer to freeze. > However male deer are more active and agressive during the rutting > season. I was speaking in terms of personal danger, being in the woods > during the rutting season, and not necessarily deer and and cars. > One must also remember that roads and highways ofter intersect the "natural" path the deer take between their feeding and sleeping area. I used to know of several in both the Twin Cities and Chicago area. You could almost set a watch to the deer crossing the highway. Often at sunrise and sunset with the predictable results. > > > > Lets cure this problem once and for all, lets outlaw headlights. > > > > "the deer, a relatively small animal" Hah! You've never seen a typical > > Detroit-built American Land Barge totaled by one little deer? One > > little deer can easily destroy the bumper, headlights, grill, hood, > > fender and windshield. If the roof line gets bent too, the vehicle is > > usually totaled. > > Hah! try running into a moose sometime, Guaranteed the damage will be > greater. > Larger animal = greater damage. Not too difficult. Agree. The average male White Tail weighs around 350 lbs. and is around 4 foot high at the shoulder. The average male moose, around 1300 lbs. and over 6 foot at the shoulder. I once saw a Nissan pickup hit a moose on US highway 61, which runs between Duluth and Thunder Bay. The moose got up and calmly walked into the woods. The Nissan looked like a beer can that some one had dropped a 5 lb sledgehammer on. > > > > There is probably not a single Wal-Mart or K-Mart in the continental US > > that doesn't sell "deer whistles" to be mounted on your front bumper. > > The theory is a deer will run from the right high pitched whistle as > > some vehicles were observed to be hit by deer very rarely, and guessed > > this was due to their sound. > > I am well aware of these devices and their purpose. I have heard that > they do work. I have racked up about 100,000 miles driving between > Minneapolis and Milwaukee, a 750 mile round trip, and have yet to hit a > deer. That area of the state has a very heavy deer population. I don't > use whistles. Maybe I am just luckey or careful and have some knowledge > of what to look for when deer are present. A lot of those miles were > driven in the 90 mph range. Course I also drive race cars, not as much > as I use to, which may account for alertness and quick reactions. > I do not agree. My first wife had one of those things on her car and in the 4 years she had the car she must have hit 2 deer a year. The car was trashed by the time we got rid of it. It became a standing joke with the local police to ask her if she had a permit to hunt deer with her car. ;-) My experance is that those devices have no affect weither you hit a deer or not. I have known people who had them and never hit a deer and people who had them who were getting their limit every season using their car. My guess is that if you were running between Minneapolis and Milwaukee you were taking 90/94 and you were going through the area with the high deer population either at night or midday, both times when the deer are resting. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 03:56:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA04493 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:56:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (cyclone.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA04336 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from neuron.webmore.com (unverified [194.95.214.179]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:56:18 +0200 Received: (from malte@webmore.com) by neuron.webmore.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00766; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:50:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199806272110.PAA20578@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:50:31 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: malte@webmore.com From: Malte Lance To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Jun-98 Wes Peters wrote: > My hidden microphone recorded Malte Lance (malte@webmore.com) saying: > > % In the end in both cases the effect is human life being ended by some > % action of human beings. I don't think anyone has the right to forcibly end > % human life except its own. Doing so makes them act on the same low level. > % And at least it does not help much. > > I'm sure Saddam Hussein will note your sentiments. Expect an invasion this > afternoon. I'm sure all the people executed by fault, their wifes, children, sisters and brothers, mother and father share your thoughts regarding execution. Execution is not needed and does not help ! Additionally it is part of a law-system where errors are known to happen. How are YOU going to excuse an execution by fault to his/her wife/husband, mother, father, children, sister, brother ??? Maybe ... "OOOoops ... sorry for that one. It was an error. Next time we'll do better." There are situations where killing is the only way to safe your own life (self-defence). And then again this should not end in self-defence- excess. Malte. > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Malte Lance Date: 28-Jun-98 Time: 12:20:30 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 07:38:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28657 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 07:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28645 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 07:38:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22532; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:37:54 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA17777; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:37:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980628163751.40044@follo.net> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:37:51 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <19980627182937.40983@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:51:59AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:51:59AM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > >where it is considered OK to murder people. (If you, the reader, say > >to yourself that you don't consider it OK, then you'd better be > >actively opposing the use of death penalty - otherwise you've just > >turned your logic off in what you say to yourself) > > This statement presumes that execution is murder. Execution is a lawful > punishment in the United States. > > Not everything that causes death is murder. Not even everything that > causes a wrongful death is murder. In the United States we divvy out > justice based on "mens rea" or criminal intent. A cold blooded killer is > guilty of a capital offense whereas a negligent causer of death is guilty > of a less than capital offensel. 'Murder' is usually defined as the pre-planned and executed killing of another person. > The people of the United States reserve the lawful right to punish the > capital offender by death. The people of the United States reserves the right to murder some of the citizens _purely_ to satisfy public bloodthirst, using human sacrifice about the same way as the Inkas previously done. > Until the people change this law, execution will not be murder. I reserve my rights to consider it murder in the same way I consider other human sacrifice murder, no matter which laws it has been written into. Look back in history to see how false your "lawful-isn't-murder" statement is - you can easily see atrocities committed under this every few decades. I'm certain I don't have to point them out to you. However, you're diverging - the point was that allowing murder/planned killings will be part of the numbing of a popluation. That you discuss the straw man of how to define seems just an indication of that numbing, and that you want to be able to consider it OK in some situations. As far as I've been able to read research, feeding a socitety's bloodlust and thirst for revenge tend to increase its general amount of violence - there is a significant difference between restricting a societies members to avoid them hurting other members, and killing them. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 08:00:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01358 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01352 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23217; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:00:09 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA17867; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:00:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980628170008.43362@follo.net> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:00:08 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Wes Peters , jcwells@u.washington.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <199806272108.PAA20565@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199806272108.PAA20565@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 03:08:31PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 03:08:31PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > We also reserve the right to kill anyone who attempts to bring down > the lawful government of the United States, either from within or > from outside threat. This is not considered "murder" here, nor in > any other country I know of -- yours included, Eivind. This is only lawfully permitted in military action here. I don't approve much of that, either, and I'm actively opposing the way it is used. > So, is it always wrong to kill human beings, or are you dabbling in > situational ethics as well? I consider help to suicide OK - ie, if the person in question voluntarily choose to have their life ended, and is in a state where they can be considered to understand what they're choosing. I also accept it in the case where this is the only choice for stopping somebody from killing more people, there and then. This is not the same as using murder ("capital punishment" are probably the words that make you feel wrongly OK about it) as "deterent" (which is woolly thinking and emotionalism) or revenge. > Correct. As you point out, the statement "it is never OK to murder > people" does not imply "it is never OK to kill people." Murdering > people is a proper subset of killing people, but the two are not the > SAME set. Agreed. Murder is planned killing. Like in "capital punishment". > I absolutely bristle every time someone comes up with the example of > that asshole on the Long Island commuter train to killed 14 people > with a revolver, reloading twice in the process. If just ONE > law-abiding citizen on that train had been armed and trained to use > his or her weapon effectively, he wouldn't have gotten more than one > or two. And those who laid there while he reloaded TWICE... Now, dig up the stastics for how many people would be killed by having that many guns available, both by accidents and by more cases of violence involving guns (because they're there) instead of fists or knives. You have to prove that it _overall_ is an improvement; using single cases is bad science (just appealing to emotions, which is killer clear thoughts). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 08:29:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03754 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:29:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03747 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:29:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24037; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:29:02 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA17940; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:29:01 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980628172900.08399@follo.net> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:29:00 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: drifter@stratos.net, Wes Peters , fpawlak@execpc.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <19980627034631.A944@stratos.net> <199806270857.CAA17321@softweyr.com> <19980627182937.40983@follo.net> <19980627211308.B392@stratos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980627211308.B392@stratos.net>; from drifter@stratos.net on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:13:08PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:13:08PM -0400, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 06:29:37PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > There are clear problems with having a large amount of handguns. > > Handguns are more effective weapons than knives, thus you get more > > dead people when criminals use guns instead of knives. This happen > > This is one common-sense statement that I happen to agree with > gun control advocates on. Guns certainly do make it /easier/ to kill > people than knives do. (And bombs make it even easier than guns.) > But sorry, Eivind, Wes is right about personal responsibility. A society should be formed to give maximum benefit to the individuals in that society. Saying "That criminal was irresponsible" when a criminal got a gun and shot your daugther won't bring you anywhere. The interesting question is what is done right or wrong on the level of a society to bring about or deter this behaviour. > While I agree with the necessity for common-sense regulation > of firearms consistent with traditional understanding of the Second > Amendment, (in the U.S., at least) the old NRA adage of "Guns don't > kill people, people kill people" is a truth many don't want to > accept, even if they pay lip service to it. I'm not certain how the traditional understanding of the second amandement is. I've seen so many of them :-) Can you enlightenment as to which you consider traditional? > People kill because they are bad, not because of people like > Charlton Heston talking about gun rights all of the time. I am not > a member of the NRA, and don't even own a firearm. (The only time I > ever shot off one was a time I went skeet shooting -- hit the first > clay pigeon and then went 0 for 29!) But I am sick and tired of them > being blamed for crimes committed by murderers who lack decency and > respect for human life. This is just plain false. I'm sorry - guns kill people in a _large_ set of accidents. You and your family are more likely to be hurt by a gun you buy than the sum of other people. However, I'm not generally blaming guns in themselves - I'm stating that the availability of guns made for killing people make it more likely that a criminal will use a gun for killing people. This is statistically certain, and placing blame won't bring us anywhere. > It is only "murder" if you believe it is immoral to take the life > of another human being if said human being cold-bloodedly murdered someone > else. It /is/ a view-point held by many in this country, though not the > majority. > Remember, Eivind, this argument can be turned on its > head if I ask you about your government's (Norway -- unless 'yes.no' really > is a made-up domain name) and society's attidude towards abortion, > which is apparently more permissive there (very few legal restrictions) than > here in the United States... Yes, I am from Norway. This is depend very much on where you introduce humans and human worth. IMO, human worth is connected to relationships, both to other humans and to self. If you want to bring in 'potential' at an early pre-born stage, you're on a slippery slope - what about the potential of the kid you could have with the lady over on the right? We're wasting potential every day, but IMO that doesn't mean we should attempt to have kids with everybody. However, you're still evading the interesting question: What does having a society murdering citizens to satisfy thirst for revenge (ie, to satify the bloodthirst of many members of the society) do to that society? It at least clearly sends the signal that use of murder for revenge is OK in some situations, and AFAIK this increase the amount of violence in the society. This is not the case for allowing abortion. Allowing abortion may change when non-borns or babies are considered to get human worth, but this does not seem to add the problem of babies being killed. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 08:35:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04288 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic11.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04273 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:35:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id IAA06452; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980628083505.A6268@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:35:05 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Eivind Eklund , Wes Peters , jcwells@u.washington.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199806272108.PAA20565@softweyr.com> <19980628170008.43362@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980628170008.43362@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:00:08PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:00:08PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 03:08:31PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > We also reserve the right to kill anyone who attempts to bring down > > the lawful government of the United States, either from within or > > from outside threat. This is not considered "murder" here, nor in > > any other country I know of -- yours included, Eivind. I have always been fascinated by this attitude. 200 years ago, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, et al. overthrew the "lawful government" of these British colonies. Because they won, they are called "patriots" and "Founding Fathers". Had they lost, they would have been executed for treason, read state sanctioned murder, and called traitors. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." - Declaration of Independence Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 08:51:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05376 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:51:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05367 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24594; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:51:28 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA17993; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:51:27 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980628175127.64780@follo.net> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:51:27 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Wes Peters , drifter@stratos.net, fpawlak@execpc.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <980627174601.ZM27818@darkstar.connect.com> <199806272116.PAA20589@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199806272116.PAA20589@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 03:16:28PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 03:16:28PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > If you mean gun ownership in the cities is going up, that's only > because living it cities is going up; the USA is significantly less > rural that it used to be. And gun ownership here where I live has > gone down in the last 20 years, from about 95% of households in the > 70s to about 75% of households in the 90s. Much of the blame for > this sad state of affairs is the increasing urabanization of > northern Utah, and the attendant crime and drop in moral standards. > > Guns are not the cause of crime, indecency is. I'm not certain what you mean by this. However, saying that "indecency is the cause of crime" seems an oversimplification. Attitudes are the cause of crime. There are many factors influencing these attitudes; analysing and changing these attitudes is what's interesting. I believe one of the prime factors are communications. With increased communications each person have contact with a group of people that is much less restricted by area, and can drop inimate contact with the people in the immediate area. This make it easier to objectify people encountered, which again makes it emotionally easier to do crime against them. Another factor is crime itself. Crime feeds crime by creating an environment where a criminal will be tolerated. A society where violence is routinely used is another factor. This tend to lower the tolerance for using violence, which again make it easier to do violent crime. Part of this is reflected in the use of capital punishment, which work as a bad circle. Part of it comes from increased non-physical communications, which makes it easier to become numb to violence, because you're exposed to it all the time. Part comes from availability of weapons, which makes it more likely they're used, and thus numb people, at least in certain circles. Victimless crimes is another factor - it lessen the respect for the law, as people break those laws and thus loose respect for the law in general. The issues are difficult to solve, but blaming them all on "indecency" will get nowhere. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 08:54:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05614 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flarn.dyn.ml.org (cjh@usr235.third-wave.com [147.72.122.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05567 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:54:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@flarn.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from mph@localhost) by flarn.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19735; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:21:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mph) Message-ID: <19980628112138.A19705@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:21:38 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD T-Shirts? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <19980627212537.B9394@notabene.zer0.org> <199806280608.XAA00594@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806280608.XAA00594@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 11:08:02PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 11:08:02PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Got a pointer for a cool FreeBSD pointer?? And I'm still looking for a nice one-inch-square Daemon sticker for my new case... -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 10:32:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15845 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15832; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <980627174601.ZM27818@darkstar.connect.com> from Frank Pawlak at "Jun 27, 98 05:46:01 pm" To: fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Cc: drifter@stratos.net, fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank Pawlak wrote: > It is interesting that you did an in-depth analysis of my analogy. I was > taking neither of the positions arrived at in your deduction. The is no > question about the issue of personification of guns in the US. The citizens > have been armed to the teeth since the Revolutionary War. Gun possession is > covered by the Constitution. So far all well and good. based upon reading madison, jefferson and other FF's (founding fathers), the second amendment to the constitution was enacted in order to guarantee the citizentry's ability to oppose a tyrannical government, and thereby prevent that government from forming. ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. what would it have availed the chinese students to have small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have forestalled action by the gov't. the narrow reading of the second amendment leaves us with the high death rate by shooting that we have in the US without the means to effectively oppose the govt. the worst of both. ugh. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 10:41:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16607 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16598 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:41:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA00976; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:34:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Eivind Eklund cc: drifter@stratos.net, Wes Peters , fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <19980628172900.08399@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > This is depend very much on where you introduce humans and human > worth. IMO, human worth is connected to relationships, both to other > humans and to self. If you want to bring in 'potential' at an early > pre-born stage, you're on a slippery slope - what about the potential > of the kid you could have with the lady over on the right? We're Your theorized basis for human worth is showing. An infant at a pre-born stage has no relationships to other humans, therefore its only value can be derived from its "potential" value. However, as you rightly point out, the argument about "potential" value in a pre-born infant is mostly null (unless you can demonstrate that a particular pre-born was very genetically predisposed to developing at some point in the future many strong relationships with other humans). You may rightly guess that the value of a human is derived from more than just how many names said human can list. :-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 10:44:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16925 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:44:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16920 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA01671; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:38:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Eivind Eklund cc: Wes Peters , drifter@stratos.net, fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <19980628175127.64780@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > I believe one of the prime factors are communications. With increased > communications each person have contact with a group of people that is > much less restricted by area, and can drop inimate contact with the > people in the immediate area. This make it easier to objectify people > encountered, which again makes it emotionally easier to do crime > against them. Who cares? After all, since these people lack any relationships with me, they are valueless anyways. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 11:12:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20107 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:12:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20096 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:12:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16319; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:12:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13984; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806281812.LAA13984@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <980628084830.ZM29199@darkstar.connect.com> from Frank Pawlak at "Jun 28, 98 08:48:30 am" To: fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hoek@hwcn.org, kline@tera.com, drifter@stratos.net, eivind@yes.no, wes@softweyr.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Frank Pawlak: > On Jun 28, 1:28am, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > > On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Gary Kline wrote: > > > > > Rather than mess around, we need a new paradigm in > > > the way of personal weaponry. I suggest something > > > like the Personal Grenade. Something that would > > > take adversaries out at, oh, say, 20 feet and leave > > > oneself entirely safe. > > > > Naw, we just need to be patient. Technology will solve the > > problem. Eventually all Americans will have little nuclear > > missiles, and then all of North America will be in perfect peace, > > since everyone knows that mutual armament is the solution to > > violence. > > > > > > -- > > Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! > > tIM...HOEk > >-- End of excerpt from Tim Vanderhoek > > Finally a man that has learned something from world history. How did you > manage to do that? Maybe you could get the word out to the general > population... save you breath. I do bow to you my friend. > > Frank > Yep, Tim's sage thoughts ought to be broadcast world-wide. And implemented across the globe. --Imagine! everyone with personal nukes. It just blows me away... and I'm sure that would happen, too. ((Give it about 2 hours.)) With apologies to those not familiar with Western mythology, there is a significant minority eager to have Armageddon happen. These folks would do a first-strike with their nukes. gary PS: Howzit going, Frank? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 11:55:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24853 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24820 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:54:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-1-96.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.134.96]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id NAA15335; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:54:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA29980; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:55:04 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628185458.ZM29979@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:54:58 +0000 In-Reply-To: Josef Grosch "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 2:16am) References: <199806272245.RAA20572@nospam.hiwaay.net> <980628081907.ZM29169@darkstar.connect.com> <19980628021659.A3265@mooseriver.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, Frank Pawlak , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 2:16am, Josef Grosch wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 08:19:07AM +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > On Jun 27, 5:45pm, David Kelly wrote: > > > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > > > "Frank Pawlak" writes: > > > > > > > > Even the deer, a relatively small animal during the rut can pose a > > > > danger. And that leads me to my point. Knowing what the animal is > > > > all about before entering its' environment enables you to minimize the > > > > risk of harm and allow the animal to live right along side of you. > > > > > > Rutting has very little to do with deer and automobiles. "Headlights" > > > are the cause of automobile/deer unintentional interfaces. Its common > > > for a deer to freeze staring into the oncoming headlights. Often the > > > deer is on the side of the road, freezes, doesn't panic until the > > > automobile is very close. Then jumps in front of the automobile. > > > > You are right about the effects of headlights on causing deer to freeze. > > However male deer are more active and agressive during the rutting > > season. I was speaking in terms of personal danger, being in the woods > > during the rutting season, and not necessarily deer and and cars. > > > > One must also remember that roads and highways ofter intersect the > "natural" path the deer take between their feeding and sleeping area. I > used to know of several in both the Twin Cities and Chicago area. You > could almost set a watch to the deer crossing the highway. Often at sunrise > and sunset with the predictable results. > > > > > > > Lets cure this problem once and for all, lets outlaw headlights. > > > > > > "the deer, a relatively small animal" Hah! You've never seen a typical > > > Detroit-built American Land Barge totaled by one little deer? One > > > little deer can easily destroy the bumper, headlights, grill, hood, > > > fender and windshield. If the roof line gets bent too, the vehicle is > > > usually totaled. > > > > Hah! try running into a moose sometime, Guaranteed the damage will be > > greater. > > Larger animal = greater damage. Not too difficult. > > Agree. The average male White Tail weighs around 350 lbs. and is around > 4 foot high at the shoulder. The average male moose, around 1300 lbs. > and over 6 foot at the shoulder. > > I once saw a Nissan pickup hit a moose on US highway 61, which runs between > Duluth and Thunder Bay. The moose got up and calmly walked into the > woods. The Nissan looked like a beer can that some one had dropped a 5 lb > sledgehammer on. > > > > > > > There is probably not a single Wal-Mart or K-Mart in the continental US > > > that doesn't sell "deer whistles" to be mounted on your front bumper. > > > The theory is a deer will run from the right high pitched whistle as > > > some vehicles were observed to be hit by deer very rarely, and guessed > > > this was due to their sound. > > > > I am well aware of these devices and their purpose. I have heard that > > they do work. I have racked up about 100,000 miles driving between > > Minneapolis and Milwaukee, a 750 mile round trip, and have yet to hit a > > deer. That area of the state has a very heavy deer population. I don't > > use whistles. Maybe I am just luckey or careful and have some knowledge > > of what to look for when deer are present. A lot of those miles were > > driven in the 90 mph range. Course I also drive race cars, not as much > > as I use to, which may account for alertness and quick reactions. > > > > I do not agree. My first wife had one of those things on her car and in the > 4 years she had the car she must have hit 2 deer a year. The car was > trashed by the time we got rid of it. It became a standing joke with the > local police to ask her if she had a permit to hunt deer with her car. ;-) > My experance is that those devices have no affect weither you hit a deer or > not. I have known people who had them and never hit a deer and people who > had them who were getting their limit every season using their car. > > My guess is that if you were running between Minneapolis and Milwaukee you > were taking 90/94 and you were going through the area with the high deer > population either at night or midday, both times when the deer are resting. > That is route I travel, and have seen many beautiful sunrises and sunsets along the way. I have seen deer grazing on the median strips on 90/94 many times. So, yes I was on the road during the times that deer were on the move. Being a former avid deer hunter, I do know their habits quite well. For example, I'd hunt the early morning and late afternoon hours, and take the rest of the day for other things. Frank > Josef > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Josef Grosch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 12:16:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27734 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:16:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from joshua.enteract.com (joshua.enteract.com [207.229.129.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA27729 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djhoward@joshua.enteract.com) Received: (qmail 4747 invoked by uid 1032); 28 Jun 1998 19:16:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19980628141604.D2944@enteract.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:16:05 -0500 From: dannyman To: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD T-Shirts? Mail-Followup-To: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199806280406.VAA00429@rah.star-gate.com> <19980627212537.B9394@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980627212537.B9394@notabene.zer0.org>; from Gregory Sutter on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:25:37PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:25:37PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:06:46PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > I just browse a little at www.freebsd.org and couldn't find a place > > to order a FreeBSD T-Shirt?? > > www.cdrom.com sells FreeBSD T-shirts. Go there and buy buy... http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/fbsdtsh.htm -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 12:25:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28719 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:25:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28687 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:25:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-1-96.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.134.96]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id OAA16795; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:25:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA00110; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:25:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628192537.ZM109@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:25:37 +0000 In-Reply-To: Josef Grosch "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 8:35am) References: <199806272108.PAA20565@softweyr.com> <19980628170008.43362@follo.net> <19980628083505.A6268@mooseriver.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, Eivind Eklund , Wes Peters , jcwells@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 8:35am, Josef Grosch wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:00:08PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 03:08:31PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > We also reserve the right to kill anyone who attempts to bring down > > > the lawful government of the United States, either from within or > > > from outside threat. This is not considered "murder" here, nor in > > > any other country I know of -- yours included, Eivind. > > I have always been fascinated by this attitude. 200 years ago, Thomas > Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, et al. overthrew the > "lawful government" of these British colonies. Because they won, they are > called "patriots" and "Founding Fathers". Had they lost, they would have > been executed for treason, read state sanctioned murder, and called > traitors. > > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created > equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable > Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of > Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted > among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the > governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of > these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, > and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such > principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall > seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." > > - Declaration of Independence > > > Josef > Very well put and of course true. It all depends upon who's ox is being gored. It would be even better if We The People actually lived up to this. In addition foreigners do not as a rule see the US or Americans as we like to see ourselves. They are more than well aware of how we as a nation go about sticking our noses in other countries business, pointing flaws in their civil rights methods, while the hypocrisy goes on here in the US. We are not often times viewed as THE model of democracy that we'd like to thing we are, but rather as pushy, verbose bastards, whose actions are confusing to people of other nations. We have some closets here that need cleaning before we tout our shinning image to the rest of the world. I sense that is what Eivind is saying: clean up your act first than talk to the rest of the world about how things should be. But, he doesn't need me to put words in his mouth. IMHO, he is quite capable of taking care of himself. Frank > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Josef Grosch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 12:29:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29273 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:29:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29263 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01932; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:28:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806281928.MAA01932@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dannyman cc: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD T-Shirts? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:16:05 CDT." <19980628141604.D2944@enteract.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:28:53 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Most Cool, How about a pointer to FreeBSD posters or a site that has nice FreeBSD gifs or jpegs ? Tnks, Amancio > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:25:37PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:06:46PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > > > I just browse a little at www.freebsd.org and couldn't find a place > > > to order a FreeBSD T-Shirt?? > > > > www.cdrom.com sells FreeBSD T-shirts. Go there and buy buy... > > http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/fbsdtsh.htm > > -- > // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves > \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 12:30:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29569 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29524; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:30:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-1-96.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.134.96]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id OAA13680; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:30:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA00174; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:30:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628193031.ZM171@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:30:31 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 10:32am) References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 10:32am, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > It is interesting that you did an in-depth analysis of my analogy. I was > > taking neither of the positions arrived at in your deduction. The is no > > question about the issue of personification of guns in the US. The citizens > > have been armed to the teeth since the Revolutionary War. Gun possession is > > covered by the Constitution. So far all well and good. > > based upon reading madison, jefferson and other FF's (founding > fathers), the second amendment to the constitution was enacted > in order to guarantee the citizentry's ability to oppose > a tyrannical government, and thereby prevent that government > from forming. > > ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. > if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather > then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own > heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. > > what would it have availed the chinese students to have > small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have > forestalled action by the gov't. > > the narrow reading of the second amendment leaves us with > the high death rate by shooting that we have in the US > without the means to effectively oppose the govt. > the worst of both. ugh. > jmb >-- End of excerpt from Jonathan M. Bresler An example of excellent clear thinking, with the emotions under full control. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 12:42:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01551 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01542 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:42:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-1-96.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.134.96]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id OAA17562; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:42:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA00184; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:42:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628194238.ZM183@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:42:38 +0000 In-Reply-To: Gary Kline "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 11:11am) References: <199806281812.LAA13984@athena.tera.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Gary Kline , fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: hoek@hwcn.org, drifter@stratos.net, eivind@yes.no, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 11:11am, Gary Kline wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > According to Frank Pawlak: > > On Jun 28, 1:28am, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > > > On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Gary Kline wrote: > > > > > > > Rather than mess around, we need a new paradigm in > > > > the way of personal weaponry. I suggest something > > > > like the Personal Grenade. Something that would > > > > take adversaries out at, oh, say, 20 feet and leave > > > > oneself entirely safe. > > > > > > Naw, we just need to be patient. Technology will solve the > > > problem. Eventually all Americans will have little nuclear > > > missiles, and then all of North America will be in perfect peace, > > > since everyone knows that mutual armament is the solution to > > > violence. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! > > > tIM...HOEk > > >-- End of excerpt from Tim Vanderhoek > > > > Finally a man that has learned something from world history. How did you > > manage to do that? Maybe you could get the word out to the general > > population... save you breath. I do bow to you my friend. > > > > Frank > > > > Yep, Tim's sage thoughts ought to be broadcast world-wide. > And implemented across the globe. --Imagine! everyone with > personal nukes. It just blows me away... and I'm sure that > would happen, too. ((Give it about 2 hours.)) > > With apologies to those not familiar with Western mythology, > there is a significant minority eager to have Armageddon > happen. These folks would do a first-strike with their > nukes. > > > gary > > PS: Howzit going, Frank? > >-- End of excerpt from Gary Kline Gary if you are not being funny with your post, I think you have missed his point. I read his last sentence as being sarcastic regarding the history of what mutual armament has brought about. It is possible that I have mis-read his intent. If I am reading him correctly he is correct about its effects on violence and peace. You like wise are right about the first strike idiots. BTW, I do owe you a letter. Perhaps I need to dis-engage from this flame fest and take care of stuff like that. Things are pretty good in general. I'll get the letter out soon. Will be good to catch up again Regards. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 13:22:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05342 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05336 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:22:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18073; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:22:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14574; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806282022.NAA14574@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <980628194238.ZM183@darkstar.connect.com> from Frank Pawlak at "Jun 28, 98 07:42:38 pm" To: fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Cc: kline@tera.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, hoek@hwcn.org, drifter@stratos.net, eivind@yes.no, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Frank Pawlak: [[ ... ]] > > > > PS: Howzit going, Frank? > > > >-- End of excerpt from Gary Kline > > Gary if you are not being funny with your post, I think you have missed his > point. I read his last sentence as being sarcastic regarding the history of > what mutual armament has brought about. It is possible that I have mis-read > his intent. If I am reading him correctly he is correct about its effects on > violence and peace. > > You like wise are right about the first strike idiots. > > BTW, I do owe you a letter. Perhaps I need to dis-engage from this flame fest > and take care of stuff like that. Things are pretty good in general. I'll get > the letter out soon. Will be good to catch up again > > Regards. > Frank > I certainly wasn't writing that seriously about anything that's been said recently. There've been several good points in this discussion. And some sophistry as well:: when your arguments fall short once tactic is to attack the other guy's country or society or worldview... or his red hair! At least none of us has dug out his old deer rifle... . Looking forward to hearing from you when you've got time; also to your visit -whenever-. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 14:32:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11435 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:32:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11406 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id XAA00293 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:32:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id XAA11836 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:02:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980628230208.A11763@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:02:08 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD T-Shirts? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <19980627212537.B9394@notabene.zer0.org> <199806280608.XAA00594@rah.star-gate.com> <19980628112138.A19705@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <19980628112138.A19705@flarn.dyn.ml.org>; from Matthew Hunt on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 11:21:38AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4419 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Matthew Hunt: > And I'm still looking for a nice one-inch-square Daemon sticker > for my new case... I got one at USENIX where Mike Smith had some of them from the Japanese guys (I think). Really cute. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #11: Sat Jun 27 00:41:06 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 14:52:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14140 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14135 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:52:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id OAA30906; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:52:40 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id OAA24563; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:42:27 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Malte Lance cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Malte Lance wrote: >In the end in both cases the effect is human life being ended by some >action of human beings. I don't think anyone has the right to forcibly end >human life except its own. Doing so makes them act on the same low level. >And at least it does not help much. In a perfect world we need not even discuss this. In this world there have been, are, and will be those who will not refrain from crimes against society and even crimes against humanity until they are put under the threat of terror. We call these people murderers and tyrants. Keep in mind... these people _will not stop_ until they are killed. What then do we do? There are two choices. We can be tyrannized or we can kill. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 14:54:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14325 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:54:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14317 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id OAA28638; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:54:07 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id OAA18743; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:43:55 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Frank Pawlak cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <980627183640.ZM27871@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: >Your right Jason, it is all in the deffinitions isn't it. Was this intended to be a simple dismissal of my statement? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 15:05:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15550 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:05:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15545 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id PAA34840; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:05:03 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id PAA21845; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:54:51 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: drifter@stratos.net cc: Frank Pawlak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <19980627202059.A392@stratos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 27 Jun 1998 drifter@stratos.net wrote: > I realize that "A well-regulated militia, being necessary for the >defense of a free-society, the right to bear arms shall not be prohibited" >(that is not exactly verbatim, but close enough, if memory serves) is not >the most clearly-written part of the constitution. This is clear if one understands the term "militia" as folks did back in the day. Many states had well crafted plans for the organization of the militia. In Georgia (if memory serves) the militia was "every able bodied man over the age of 16." Furthermore, these men were required to maintain "one gun, so many grains of powder, and so many balls." If you examine militia the second amendment is utterly clear. Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 15:17:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17091 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17085 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:17:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id PAA18012; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:16:58 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id PAA32335; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:06:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Gary Kline cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <199806280319.UAA12882@athena.tera.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Gary Kline wrote: > C'mon, guys, let's get _really_ real... We need to > abolish handguns altogether, since, let's face it: > the only thing a .454 Colt Bisley is meant to kill > is a human target. --One, maybe two for the expert > shooter. > > Rather than mess around, we need a new paradigm in > the way of personal weaponry. I suggest something > like the Personal Grenade. Something that would > take adversaries out at, oh, say, 20 feet and leave > oneself entirely safe. Most of the folks here are actually discussing this issue. What is this second paragraph intended to do? I will agree 100% with one statement. I hope everyone reads this and understands what I am going to say. Handguns are designed with the express purpose of killing. Such is the case with all weapons. Even target weapons are simple the "auto-racing" verions of a more mundane instrument of death. The Toledo of the conquistador broadsword is intended purely to kill people. So is the Dai Katana of the Samurai. Excalibur was wielded by King Arthur in "defending the faith." But the intentions of the wielder of these weapons vary widely. The point is that a weapon is inanimate. A weapon is neither good nor evil. A weapon has no intentions. A weapon cannot be tried for a crime by an court on the planet. Can you even imagine such a trial? Mr. .454, where were you on the night of... This is ludicrous. Why is it ludicrous? Because the _human being_ is responsible for the use that the weapon is put to. Let me be more cliche. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." I invite anyone to show me a case where a weapon has been found guilty of a crime and has been convicted under the law of that government. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 15:37:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19867 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:37:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19861; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id PAA34952; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:37:55 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id PAA12367; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:27:43 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Frank Pawlak , drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > based upon reading madison, jefferson and other FF's (founding > fathers), the second amendment to the constitution was enacted > in order to guarantee the citizentry's ability to oppose > a tyrannical government, and thereby prevent that government > from forming. Fair. > ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. > if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather > then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own > heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of the South East Asian theater make this statement. I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. > what would it have availed the chinese students to have > small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have > forestalled action by the gov't. No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift in power. > the narrow reading of the second amendment leaves us with > the high death rate by shooting that we have in the US > without the means to effectively oppose the govt. > the worst of both. ugh. Ugg perhaps. Still, I will not disavow the rights granted me under the Constitution. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 16:01:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22174 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:01:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22150 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04860; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:00:51 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA19200; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:00:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980629010045.04155@follo.net> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:00:45 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: drifter@stratos.net, Wes Peters , fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <19980628172900.08399@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 01:34:49PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 01:34:49PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > This is depend very much on where you introduce humans and human > > worth. IMO, human worth is connected to relationships, both to other > > humans and to self. If you want to bring in 'potential' at an early > > pre-born stage, you're on a slippery slope - what about the potential > > of the kid you could have with the lady over on the right? We're > > Your theorized basis for human worth is showing. An infant at a > pre-born stage has no relationships to other humans, therefore > its only value can be derived from its "potential" value. Not true. An infant has people that relate to it, even though they haven't met it yet. > However, as you rightly point out, the argument about "potential" > value in a pre-born infant is mostly null (unless you can > demonstrate that a particular pre-born was very genetically > predisposed to developing at some point in the future many strong > relationships with other humans). Wrong in several ways - I included "relationship to self", and it can have relationships as per the description above. > You may rightly guess that the value of a human is derived from > more than just how many names said human can list. :-) Of course :-) Human worth is a gradual process, much related to at which point we're conditioned to consider people to have it. It get ridicilous almost no matter how you slice it, as we're just talking about an abstraction, a feeling. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 16:22:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24166 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:22:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24153 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:22:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-1-160.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.136.162]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id SAA28502; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:22:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id SAA00940; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:22:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980628232217.ZM939@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:22:17 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 3:06pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason C. Wells" , Gary Kline Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 3:06pm, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Gary Kline wrote: > > > C'mon, guys, let's get _really_ real... We need to > > abolish handguns altogether, since, let's face it: > > the only thing a .454 Colt Bisley is meant to kill > > is a human target. --One, maybe two for the expert > > shooter. > > > > Rather than mess around, we need a new paradigm in > > the way of personal weaponry. I suggest something > > like the Personal Grenade. Something that would > > take adversaries out at, oh, say, 20 feet and leave > > oneself entirely safe. > > Most of the folks here are actually discussing this issue. What is this > second paragraph intended to do? > > I will agree 100% with one statement. I hope everyone reads this and > understands what I am going to say. > > Handguns are designed with the express purpose of killing. Such is the > case with all weapons. Even target weapons are simple the "auto-racing" > verions of a more mundane instrument of death. > > The Toledo of the conquistador broadsword is intended purely to kill > people. So is the Dai Katana of the Samurai. Excalibur was wielded by King > Arthur in "defending the faith." But the intentions of the wielder of > these weapons vary widely. > > The point is that a weapon is inanimate. A weapon is neither good nor > evil. A weapon has no intentions. A weapon cannot be tried for a crime by > an court on the planet. > > Can you even imagine such a trial? > > Mr. .454, where were you on the night of... This is ludicrous. Why is it > ludicrous? Because the _human being_ is responsible for the use that the > weapon is put to. > > Let me be more cliche. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." > > I invite anyone to show me a case where a weapon has been found guilty of > a crime and has been convicted under the law of that government. > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > | 206-633-5994 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Jason C. Wells Jason, your arguement is correct as far as it goes. But, you miss a key point when you state that all weapons are designed to kill. That is true by definition. It does indeed require a human finger to pull a trigger or set off a bomb. So yes, guns by themselves don't kill. Only a human is responsible for killing. Back to weapon design. All weapons can and do kill. However the firepower differs by means of weapon design. Weapons designed for hunting purposes are designed for very limited firepower. For example, a round has to be chambered, the fireing mechanism cocked and the trigger squeezed, and the round fired. This can all be acomplished in two steps with a semi-automatic weapon, hand gun or shouder fired. Older military weapons were of this type. Any weapon of this type is useful for hunting, both wild game or human. This type of weapon has to be aimed and the user a good shot to hit a target. Now comes the difference. Certain weapons are designed to lay down a massive field of fire power, in other words a weapon of mass distruction. These are fully automatic weapons equiped with a large magazine of cartridges. The use of this type of weapon involves a shooting process that differs greatly from that used above. For example, to hit a target the weapon is not aimed as stated above, but rather pointed in the general direction of the intended target, the trigger is pulled and the target area is sprayed with bullets. The rate of fire of this type of weapon is extremely high, hence the mass distruction. This weapon has no other purpose than the mass killing of humans. As a hunting weapon it is totally useless. Any game taken with it would be turned into hamburger on the spot. This is strictly an assault weapon, that does not belong in the hands of any civilains for any reason, just by nature of design. Gary was having a bit of fun with this in his suggestion. Yet this is the type of weapon that should be banned and anyone caught with one required to face serious consequences. This is the type of shit that is often carried around the streets and highways of this country. I am not necessarily in favor of gun control, but something is clearly needed to stop the carnage that goes on daily in the US. We have already tried making the individual responsible for their actions, the prisons of are filled with people that have commited crimes using weapons. The state of Texas executes people for even thinking about killing. State sanctioned killing is no different than an individual killing someone. The death penality has done nothing to stem the tide of crime in the US. If it did Texas would have a very low crime rate, which it does not. The answer is to get the guns out of the hands of those individuals that would use them to commit crimes. How you seperate them from the persons that would use guns for legitimate reasons is a feat without and answer. In the US we have allowed easy access to firearms and other weapons, now we may have to pay the piper for our lax ways. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 16:42:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27151 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27079 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:42:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id QAA21326; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:42:13 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id QAA25526; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:32:01 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Frank Pawlak cc: "Jason C. Wells" , Gary Kline , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <980628232217.ZM939@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: *** snipped a bunch about weapons and design *** >turned into hamburger on the spot. This is strictly an assault weapon, that >does not belong in the hands of any civilains for any reason, just by nature of >design. I did not comment on the design of firearms but I do know the difference between semi and fully automatic. You will see other comments in this thread that I make about semiauto weapons. I agree totally. I am in complete agreement with the Federal Firearms act of 1934 which prohibits the ownership of fully automatic weapons and other weapons of mass destruction. On the causes of crime and the effect punishment has there can be much debate because it is such an obtuse subject. I might in turn argue that Saudi Arabia has a low crime because of it's terrible punishments. I might argue that Switerzland has low crime because everyone is armed. I think such comparisons must be considered carefully. The US is not Switzerland or Saudi Arabia. This still leaves us with how to end murderousness in the US. I do not think the death penalty will achieve this. Nor do I propose to abolish the death penalty. What I do believe is that mutual repsect for fellow citizens and for the law can reduce murderousness. How I would achieve this respect is difficult, but it includes a huge dose of education. Perhaps I have strayed from the "gun" issue here, but I think this statement follows from my fundamental position of "human" responsibilty. I don't believe in the "gun" problem but I do believe in the "human" problem. If we can "fix" the human condition then perhaps we may have peace. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 16:47:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27971 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27869; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:46:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA00739; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:16:25 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:16:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: Frank Pawlak , drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 03:27:43PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 28 June 1998 at 15:27:43 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >> ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. >> if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather >> then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own >> heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. > > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > the South East Asian theater make this statement. Which country are you thinking of? > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. It may make a token gesture. It won't help if they're about to run over you with a tank. On the other hand, it can be quite useful for killing individuals, innocent or otherwise. >> what would it have availed the chinese students to have >> small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have >> forestalled action by the gov't. > > No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid > discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of > power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the > weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift > in power. Indeed. There would probably have been a civil war. China's government is repressive, shuns western-style human rights, and ended the Tiananmen square problem in a bloody manner. Before condemning them completely, look at how democracy and human rates score in other countries: 1. In many US cities, the crime rate is so high that you really *wouldn't* go walking alone at night. You can walk at night in any part of Beijing, despite the higher differences in income and living standards. The Chinese might see this as a result of overly lax treatment of criminals, or, as the Americans call it, "human rights". 2. India is in complete political and economic chaos, the result of 50 years of "democracy" in a country which can't handle it. The average tenure of an Indian government is less than 12 months. In view of the level-headed government they're currently getting, let's hope that this remains true. 3. Russia is in turmoil. The government is no longer in control, and crime is rife. On the whole, if I had the choice of living only in one of the four locations above, I'd choose Beijing. The Chinese government consists of people elected by a small body for their merits, not their ability to campaign. Generally, they're no fools. China may be lagging behind the West in many areas, but they're slowly and steadily improving, and they're doing it without significant incidences of the problems other countries face. Considering the enormous problems facing them, I think they're doing as good a job as anybody could expect. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 16:51:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28717 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wcug.wwu.edu (sloth.wcug.wwu.edu [140.160.166.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28658 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu) Received: (qmail 11367 invoked by uid 1085); 28 Jun 1998 23:50:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19980628165052.A11045@wcug.wwu.edu> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:50:52 -0700 From: Travis Cole To: "Jason C. Wells" , Gary Kline Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <199806280319.UAA12882@athena.tera.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 03:06:46PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 03:06:46PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Gary Kline wrote: > > > C'mon, guys, let's get _really_ real... We need to > > abolish handguns altogether, since, let's face it: > > the only thing a .454 Colt Bisley is meant to kill > > is a human target. --One, maybe two for the expert > > shooter. > > > Handguns are designed with the express purpose of killing. Such is the > case with all weapons. Even target weapons are simple the "auto-racing" > verions of a more mundane instrument of death. > > The Toledo of the conquistador broadsword is intended purely to kill > people. So is the Dai Katana of the Samurai. Excalibur was wielded by King > Arthur in "defending the faith." But the intentions of the wielder of > these weapons vary widely. > > The point is that a weapon is inanimate. A weapon is neither good nor > evil. A weapon has no intentions. A weapon cannot be tried for a crime by > an court on the planet. I fully agree until the above paragraph. Here you logic begins to break down. Read below for my reasoning. > > Can you even imagine such a trial? > > Mr. .454, where were you on the night of... This is ludicrous. Why is it > ludicrous? Because the _human being_ is responsible for the use that the > weapon is put to. While I do agree the human being is responsible for the use of the weapon I do not agree that alone negates the logic of banning such weapons. Let me draw an analogy. In the US most drugs (pot, cocaine, heroin, LSD, etc) are illegal to posses, sell or buy. But it is not the drugs fault when some one abuses it and cause undue harm to themselves or others. This is fully the responsibility of the human involved yet these drugs are illegal. By your logic all drugs should be legal. The same can go for our seat belt laws here in Washington. It is fully my responsibility to wear a seat belt while in a car. Yet this is mandated by law to protect my own safety. My analogies do not run directly parallel with gun control they follow the same vain. Our Government often takes responsibility away from the individual in hopes to protect our own best interest. Drug laws, gun control laws, and seat belt laws are all examples. > Let me be more cliche. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." > > I invite anyone to show me a case where a weapon has been found guilty of > a crime and has been convicted under the law of that government. The issue here is not how the weapon acts alone. Obviously putting an inanimate object on trial is ludicrous. The issue is reducing the harm *people* cause with guns. If one can't get a gun then a very quick and efficient method of killing is removed. What do you think would have happened if the kid in Oregon who shot many of his class mates couldn't have got his hands on any guns? Yes he may have still done something rash, but how much damage could he do with a knife or some other similar weapon before some one stopped him? Banning guns wouldn't come close to solving all our problems but it would probably reduce the number of deaths due to examples like the one above. And I think I agree with your overall point that steps need to be taken so people will take more responsibility for their actions but that doesn't provide a justification for the legality of killing machines. Just my thoughts. -Travis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 17:05:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00927 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00896; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:05:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806290005.RAA00896@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at "Jun 28, 98 03:27:43 pm" To: jcwells@u.washington.edu (Jason C. Wells) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, fpawlak@execpc.com, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > the South East Asian theater make this statement. an insurgency supported by the local population against a visibly distinct opposing force is formidable, indeed. those characteristics do not and would not obtain in the USA. > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. well, i beg to differ. please speak to some veterans about arty and its affects on infantry. (one hint: arty kills more infantry than *anything* else, sometimes more than all other weapons combined). alternatively talk to vietnam vets about the effects of repeated airstrikes on the survivors. watch them whenever they hear a plane close overhead. not a pretty sight. > > what would it have availed the chinese students to have > > small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have > > forestalled action by the gov't. > > No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid > discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of > power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the > weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift > in power. yes, given sufficient number and external support, if they could survive that long. i am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but rather believe that the odds are very long. people that play long odds in war are called casualties. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 17:50:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07415 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07305 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:49:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA01513; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:43:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Eivind Eklund cc: Tim Vanderhoek , drifter@stratos.net, Wes Peters , fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <19980629010045.04155@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > Not true. An infant has people that relate to it, even though they > haven't met it yet. Then doesn't it have (a) value just as you or me? > > However, as you rightly point out, the argument about "potential" > > value in a pre-born infant is mostly null (unless you can > > demonstrate that a particular pre-born was very genetically > > predisposed to developing at some point in the future many strong > > relationships with other humans). > > Wrong in several ways - I included "relationship to self", and it can > have relationships as per the description above. I considered the "relationship to self", but decided its awfully difficult to prove such a relationship when the person having this relationship to self can't even speak, yet. The criteria "relationship to self" is very similar to "self-awareness", and there is certainly hope of (dis)proving that at some point in time, I don't think it's going to happen in the -chat mailing list.... :-) Regardless, you almost sound as if you're argueing against abortion, now. :) > Of course :-) Human worth is a gradual process, much related to at > which point we're conditioned to consider people to have it. It get > ridicilous almost no matter how you slice it, as we're just talking > about an abstraction, a feeling. I would suggest that some definitions are considerably cleaner, in the same way a well-designed computer system is cleaner. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 17:53:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07889 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07797 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:52:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22688; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:52:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:52:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806290052.SAA22688@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Does it's true? From: Wes Peters To: eivind@yes.no, fpawlak@execpc.com, drifter@stratos.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <19980627211308.B392@stratos.net> References: <19980627211308.B392@stratos.net> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id RAA07822 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded (drifter@stratos.net) saying: % People kill because they are bad, not because of people like % Charlton Heston talking about gun rights all of the time. I am not % a member of the NRA, and don't even own a firearm. (The only time I % ever shot off one was a time I went skeet shooting -- hit the first % clay pigeon and then went 0 for 29!) But I am sick and tired of them % being blamed for crimes committed by murderers who lack decency and % respect for human life. People kill mostly because their mothers and fathers didn't teach them it is WRONG. We could argue about WHY their mothers and fathers failed to teach them the most important lesson life has to offer, but that is another discussion. % I am not an expert on gun history, but I believe gun laws were % more lax in the earlier part of the century (please correct me if I am % wrong), yet violence was also not as rampant. Maybe because people % these days care less and less about right and wrong? You'd certainly think so, wouldn't you? Actually, the murder rate in the United States has been constant (deaths per thousand caused by murder) since the Census Bureau first starting tracking such things, in the 1890-1900 decade. It's declined a tiny bit since the high in the 1910-1920 Census, but by only about 0.1%. % > Eivind, who comes from the country in the world with the second % > highest count of guns per person and with 1 killing per 100,000 % > citizens per year. % % There. Now we've covered gun control, the death penalty, and % abortion. Sweat shops anybody :) And, since you brought up the legalize murder of unborn infants, suddenly the murder rate in Norway is MUCH HIGHER than that in the United States. Remember, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 17:54:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08133 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08036; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-2-83.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.211]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id TAA01095; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:54:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA01166; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:54:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980629005417.ZM1165@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:54:17 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)" (Jun 29, 9:16am) References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) Cc: drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 29, 9:16am, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) > On Sunday, 28 June 1998 at 15:27:43 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > >> ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. > >> if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather > >> then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own > >> heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. > > > > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > > the South East Asian theater make this statement. > > Which country are you thinking of? > > > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. > > It may make a token gesture. It won't help if they're about to run > over you with a tank. On the other hand, it can be quite useful for > killing individuals, innocent or otherwise. > > >> what would it have availed the chinese students to have > >> small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have > >> forestalled action by the gov't. > > > > No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid > > discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of > > power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the > > weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift > > in power. > > Indeed. There would probably have been a civil war. I might add a very short civil war. There is no way that an armed mass of civilains can effectively fight a well equiped, trained, and displined army such as China has. The slaughter would have been worse. > > China's government is repressive, shuns western-style human rights, > and ended the Tiananmen square problem in a bloody manner. Before > condemning them completely, look at how democracy and human rates > score in other countries: > > 1. In many US cities, the crime rate is so high that you really > *wouldn't* go walking alone at night. You can walk at night in > any part of Beijing, despite the higher differences in income and > living standards. The Chinese might see this as a result of > overly lax treatment of criminals, or, as the Americans call it, > "human rights". > > 2. India is in complete political and economic chaos, the result of > 50 years of "democracy" in a country which can't handle it. The > average tenure of an Indian government is less than 12 months. In > view of the level-headed government they're currently getting, > let's hope that this remains true. > > 3. Russia is in turmoil. The government is no longer in control, and > crime is rife. > > On the whole, if I had the choice of living only in one of the four > locations above, I'd choose Beijing. > > The Chinese government consists of people elected by a small body for > their merits, not their ability to campaign. Generally, they're no > fools. China may be lagging behind the West in many areas, but > they're slowly and steadily improving, and they're doing it without > significant incidences of the problems other countries face. > Considering the enormous problems facing them, I think they're doing > as good a job as anybody could expect. I will add just one more think to a well thought out answer. They will probably, over time, become the dominant economic and military power. They are taking a gradual, controlled shift to Capitalism. They also have a more favorable infrustructure than that of Russia to make that shift. Frank > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 17:55:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08184 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:55:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pobox.com (androzani-2-164.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.95.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA08147 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:54:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Message-Id: <199806290054.RAA08147@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 4971 invoked from network); 28 Jun 1998 19:56:15 -0500 Received: from localhost (HELO pobox.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 28 Jun 1998 19:56:15 -0500 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu (Jason C. Wells), fpawlak@execpc.com, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:05:24 PDT." <199806290005.RAA00896@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:56:15 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199806290005.RAA00896@hub.freebsd.org>, "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote : } Jason C. Wells wrote: } > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the } > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of } > the South East Asian theater make this statement. } } an insurgency supported by the local population against a } visibly distinct opposing force is formidable, indeed. } those characteristics do not and would not obtain in the USA. } } > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of } > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. } } well, i beg to differ. please speak to some veterans about } arty and its affects on infantry. (one hint: arty kills } more infantry than *anything* else, sometimes more than all } other weapons combined). One angle not (apparently) being considered is that if the local population is armed and unwilling to capitulate, the government would either have to go find something else to do, or start killing people outright, which certainly carries more of a political pricetag than, say, waltzing into a neighborhood and arresting dozens of unarmed people. This "ups the ante", so to speak, to keep the government (or any aggressor) at least a little honest. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 17:59:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08601 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:59:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08559 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA03080; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:53:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:53:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: Frank Pawlak , Gary Kline , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On the causes of crime and the effect punishment has there can be much > debate because it is such an obtuse subject. I might in turn argue that > Saudi Arabia has a low crime because of it's terrible punishments. I might A more interesting argument would be that its low crime rate is due to swiftly following through on these punishments consistently. I _suspect_ that this may have more deterrant than simply "terrible punishments". -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 18:06:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09484 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:06:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09451; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:05:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA00949; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:35:41 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980629103531.B897@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:35:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Frank Pawlak , "Jason C. Wells" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com> <980629005417.ZM1165@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <980629005417.ZM1165@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 12:54:17AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 0:54:17 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > On Jun 29, 9:16am, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Subject: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) >> On Sunday, 28 June 1998 at 15:27:43 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >>> On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >>> >>>> ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. >>>> if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather >>>> then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own >>>> heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. >>> >>> I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the >>> population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of >>> the South East Asian theater make this statement. >> >> Which country are you thinking of? >> >>> I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of >>> opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. >> >> It may make a token gesture. It won't help if they're about to run >> over you with a tank. On the other hand, it can be quite useful for >> killing individuals, innocent or otherwise. >> >>>> what would it have availed the chinese students to have >>>> small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have >>>> forestalled action by the gov't. >>> >>> No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid >>> discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of >>> power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the >>> weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift >>> in power. >> >> Indeed. There would probably have been a civil war. > > I might add a very short civil war. There is no way that an armed mass of > civilains can effectively fight a well equiped, trained, and displined army > such as China has. The slaughter would have been worse. That's one alternative. Don't think that China is just the big cities people see when they go there. They have guerillas in outlying provinces now. If they had not been so hard at Tienanmen square, they might never have been able to repress such problems. In any case, the concept "less blood now rather than more blood later" stands. >> ... >> Considering the enormous problems facing them, I think they're doing >> as good a job as anybody could expect. > > I will add just one more think to a well thought out answer. They will > probably, over time, become the dominant economic and military power. They are > taking a gradual, controlled shift to Capitalism. They also have a more > favorable infrustructure than that of Russia to make that shift. This is true, but I deliberately didn't mention it. The question here is not "are they going to become more powerful than us?" (and thus "so we'd better keep our mouths shut"), but "of the alternatives open to them, how did this rate?". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 18:09:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10029 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:09:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09986; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22736; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:09:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:09:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806290109.TAA22736@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) From: Wes Peters To: jcwells@u.washington.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA10001 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: % 2. India is in complete political and economic chaos, the result of % 50 years of "democracy" in a country which can't handle it. The % average tenure of an Indian government is less than 12 months. In % view of the level-headed government they're currently getting, % let's hope that this remains true. Ah, yes, democracy - the system of goverment in which three wolves and sheep get to vote on what to have for dinner. I'm certainly glad I don't live in one. Fortunately, the founding fathers of the USA realized democracy for the failure it is, and created a Republic that has stood the test of time, because so many are willing to protect and die for the ideals by which we live. If you haven't read the Constitution of the United States of America, or even haven't read it recently, it's a pretty good read. Makes for a pretty good government, too, if you can only get the buearocrats (and the people) to follow it. % 3. Russia is in turmoil. The government is no longer in control, and % crime is rife. % % On the whole, if I had the choice of living only in one of the four % locations above, I'd choose Beijing. Not if you had to live in a mud house with no facilities, and work at a job the state assigned to you, only to find that the police killed your wife for commiting the heinous crime of having a second child. Let's not forget where the criminals in China are - the government itself. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 18:14:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10593 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10576; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:14:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-2-83.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.211]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id UAA05033; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:14:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id UAA01185; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:14:13 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980629011407.ZM1184@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:14:07 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 5:05pm) References: <199806290005.RAA00896@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , jcwells@u.washington.edu (Jason C. Wells) Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 5:05pm, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > Jason C. Wells wrote: > > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > > the South East Asian theater make this statement. > > an insurgency supported by the local population against a > visibly distinct opposing force is formidable, indeed. > those characteristics do not and would not obtain in the USA. > > > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. > > well, i beg to differ. please speak to some veterans about > arty and its affects on infantry. (one hint: arty kills > more infantry than *anything* else, sometimes more than all > other weapons combined). Until modern, read post Vietnam, arty was indeed the biggest killer on the battle field, and absorbed the fewest casualties. Will not get into tactics but, infantry is vital except of carrier based airpower. > > alternatively talk to vietnam vets about the effects of > repeated airstrikes on the survivors. watch them whenever > they hear a plane close overhead. not a pretty sight. Saved my ass amny times. Not much of a problem here, except when somebody f'ed up and shit was dropped on the friendlies. The North Vietnam Air Force was a lot like their navy. No BFD. > > > > > what would it have availed the chinese students to have > > > small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have > > > forestalled action by the gov't. > > > > No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid > > discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of > > power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the > > weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift > > in power. > > yes, given sufficient number and external support, if they > could survive that long. No nation in their right mind would have intervened in that event. The whole world would have been a nuclear disaster. End of story. > > i am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but rather believe > that the odds are very long. people that play long odds in war > are called casualties. Generally true. However I could relate cases where the opposite was true. Frank > jmb >-- End of excerpt from Jonathan M. Bresler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 18:20:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11202 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:20:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from po7.andrew.cmu.edu (PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11184 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcrimi+@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id VAA28448 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lister.net.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lister.net.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.60.Jun.27.1996.03.02.53.sun4.51.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.lister.net.cmu.edu.sun4m.54 via MS.5.6.lister.net.cmu.edu.sun4_51; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:19:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Valentino Crimi To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <19980628165052.A11045@wcug.wwu.edu> References: <199806280319.UAA12882@athena.tera.com> <19980628165052.A11045@wcug.wwu.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excerpts from FreeBSD-Chat: 28-Jun-98 Re: Does it's true? by Travis Cole@wcug.wwu.edu >While I do agree the human being is responsible for the use of the >weapon I do not agree that alone negates the logic of banning >such weapons. Let me draw an analogy. In the US most drugs >(pot, cocaine, heroin, LSD, etc) are illegal to posses, sell or buy. >But it is not the drugs fault when some one abuses it and cause undue >harm to themselves or others. This is fully the responsibility >of the human involved yet these drugs are illegal. > >By your logic all drugs should be legal. The same can go for our >seat belt laws here in Washington. It is fully my responsibility >to wear a seat belt while in a car. Yet this is mandated by law to >protect my own safety. How many people who really want drugs are finding it difficult to obtain them? Despite their illegality I really have never heard of anyone looking high and low for drugs (albiet I live in New York City, so other's milage may vary) and not finding them. At the same time, seatbelts, a 50-some-odd dollar fine (price doesn't matter, it's just a fine) convinced people to wear the belts. Most people understand that its in their best interests, and a little annoyance isn't worth the fine nor the statistics. The fine serves as a reminder more than an enforcement - very few people are vehemently opposed to seatbelts as they may be opposed to drug prohibition or gun prohibition. Also, when people speak of criminal posession of guns. I'd like to question what percentage of guns used in criminal cases are liscened to the criminal and how many are illegal? Non-licenced guns are already illegal, and at least in my vicinity, crime has been reduced by over 60% by virtue of police enforcing the laws already present. They are going out of their way to search for illegal weapons. Basically using petty crimes as an excuse for a search. Certain things are legislatable and others aren't. The "war on drugs" is one thing I find to have done more good than bad, and I don't feel a total bad on guns would do anything other than take registered guns away. Those 'guns walking' around could be stopped by police at this very minute without a constitutional ammendment. "Excuse me, you got a license for that? Oh, you don't? Step this way..." If for some reason that is not feasable now, why would it be when licensed guns are illegal? And remember that a bullet shot by a licensed gun can always be tracked back to the gun that shot it, and therefore the owner (correct me if I'm am wrong on this). >What do you think would have happened if the kid in Oregon who shot >many of his class mates couldn't have got his hands on any guns? >Yes he may have still done something rash, but how much damage could >he do with a knife or some other similar weapon before some one stopped him? Could a kid dedicated on hurting people be stopped? I won't mention all the possible things he could have done in the absence of guns, but trust me in that with too much time to himself and a little creativity you could never ban all teh objects which can be misused as weapons. That is the one fact that I find scary about 'security'. You can't stop someone who is dedicated to doing damage unless you catch him BEFORE he does it. In that vein, those who are advocating 'human responsibility' are those who I have to side with whole-heartedly. One can't child-proof the world, people have to learn how to bring up their children. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 18:21:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11297 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11217; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA00987; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:50:35 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980629105035.E897@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:50:35 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , jcwells@u.washington.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) References: <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com> <199806290109.TAA22736@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806290109.TAA22736@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 07:09:30PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 28 June 1998 at 19:09:30 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: > >> 3. Russia is in turmoil. The government is no longer in control, and >> crime is rife. >> >> On the whole, if I had the choice of living only in one of the four >> locations above, I'd choose Beijing. > > Not if you had to live in a mud house with no facilities, The bad accommodation in Beijing is more likely to be a decrepit appartment block with inadequate facilities. > and work at a job the state assigned to you, You may note that the State is trying not to assign jobs any more. > only to find that the police killed your wife for commiting the > heinous crime of having a second child. How often does that happen? I've never heard of it. Even if it does, it's not the norm. I'd guess (based only on my own patchy observation of news media) that it's about as likely to happen as getting shot on the highway in the US. In any case, I was talking about *me*. I have been offered jobs both in Beijing and in large US cities (though not in India or Russia), and I have a fair idea of what my living conditions would have been like. Note that I turned them all down. That's not a fair comparison, of course, since I would be living better than most people, but I'd expect that to hold true wherever I lived. The real question to ask (and one for which I have no obvious answer) is: who lives a happier life, the slum-dwellers in the US, in India, in China or in Russia? I certainly don't see any particular reason to decide for the US or against China, especially after you remove the problem of overpopulation (against which the Chinese Government, unlike the Indian Government, is doing something). > Let's not forget where the criminals in China are - the government > itself. I think that claim needs a little justification. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 18:25:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11556 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:25:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11540 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:24:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-2-83.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.211]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id UAA02905; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:24:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id UAA01196; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:25:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980629012456.ZM1195@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:24:56 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 4:32pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: Gary Kline , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 4:32pm, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > *** snipped a bunch about weapons and design *** > > >turned into hamburger on the spot. This is strictly an assault weapon, that > >does not belong in the hands of any civilains for any reason, just by nature of > >design. > > I did not comment on the design of firearms but I do know the difference > between semi and fully automatic. You will see other comments in this > thread that I make about semiauto weapons. Indeed you did not. I needed it to solidify my argument. > > I agree totally. I am in complete agreement with the Federal Firearms act > of 1934 which prohibits the ownership of fully automatic weapons and other > weapons of mass destruction. > > On the causes of crime and the effect punishment has there can be much > debate because it is such an obtuse subject. I might in turn argue that > Saudi Arabia has a low crime because of it's terrible punishments. I might > argue that Switerzland has low crime because everyone is armed. I think > such comparisons must be considered carefully. The US is not Switzerland > or Saudi Arabia. What role does culture play in all of this? > > This still leaves us with how to end murderousness in the US. I do not > think the death penalty will achieve this. Nor do I propose to abolish the > death penalty. What I do believe is that mutual repsect for fellow > citizens and for the law can reduce murderousness. Than what purpose does the death penalty serve? If it is inefective why keep it around? Your last statement is true. > > How I would achieve this respect is difficult, but it includes a huge dose > of education. Perhaps I have strayed from the "gun" issue here, but I > think this statement follows from my fundamental position of "human" > responsibilty. I don't believe in the "gun" problem but I do believe in > the "human" problem. So, because we have the problem the assumption is that those Americans that kill their fellow man are uneducated. I was totally unaware that all killers had the intelligence of a plant. This sounds a lot like the case for sex education. Hormones have over run that idea too. > > If we can "fix" the human condition then perhaps we may have peace. Yup at last you grasp the problem. How about a quick look at the total break down of the moral fabric of a country? Frank > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > | 206-633-5994 >-- End of excerpt from Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 18:34:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12382 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic11.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12300; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:33:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id SAA11361; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980628183355.A11012@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:33:55 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: Frank Pawlak , drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 03:27:43PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 03:27:43PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > based upon reading madison, jefferson and other FF's (founding > > fathers), the second amendment to the constitution was enacted > > in order to guarantee the citizentry's ability to oppose > > a tyrannical government, and thereby prevent that government > > from forming. > > Fair. > > > ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. > > if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather > > then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own > > heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. > > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > the South East Asian theater make this statement. > > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. > [ DELETED ] I'm not convinced. I think that people who have this vision of a rag tag militia fighting against overwhelming odds have seen Red Dawn and John Wayne movies too many times. Remember that Mohandas K. Gandhi and Dr. Martin Luther King using only nonviolent non-cooperation had a major impact on their respective political situation. Anyone who is my age or older and can remember the evil that was Selma and Montgomery can tell you what a powerful tool that nonviolent non-cooperation is. I must confess, however, that as a Jew who is lost several relatives during the holocaust, I do have trouble squaring Dr. King's and Gandhi's methods with the evil that was Nazis Germany. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 18:46:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14207 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14111; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:46:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-2-83.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.211]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id UAA05292; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:45:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id UAA01308; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:45:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980629014555.ZM1307@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:45:55 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)" (Jun 29, 10:35am) References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com> <980629005417.ZM1165@darkstar.connect.com> <19980629103531.B897@freebie.lemis.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) Cc: drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 29, 10:35am, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) > On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 0:54:17 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > On Jun 29, 9:16am, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Subject: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) > >> On Sunday, 28 June 1998 at 15:27:43 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >>> On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >>> > >>>> ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. > >>>> if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather > >>>> then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own > >>>> heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. > >>> > >>> I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > >>> population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > >>> the South East Asian theater make this statement. > >> > >> Which country are you thinking of? > >> > >>> I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > >>> opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. > >> > >> It may make a token gesture. It won't help if they're about to run > >> over you with a tank. On the other hand, it can be quite useful for > >> killing individuals, innocent or otherwise. > >> > >>>> what would it have availed the chinese students to have > >>>> small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have > >>>> forestalled action by the gov't. > >>> > >>> No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid > >>> discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of > >>> power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the > >>> weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift > >>> in power. > >> > >> Indeed. There would probably have been a civil war. > > > > I might add a very short civil war. There is no way that an armed mass of > > civilains can effectively fight a well equiped, trained, and displined army > > such as China has. The slaughter would have been worse. > > That's one alternative. Don't think that China is just the big cities > people see when they go there. They have guerillas in outlying > provinces now. If they had not been so hard at Tienanmen square, they > might never have been able to repress such problems. In any case, the > concept "less blood now rather than more blood later" stands. > > >> ... > >> Considering the enormous problems facing them, I think they're doing > >> as good a job as anybody could expect. > > > > I will add just one more think to a well thought out answer. They will > > probably, over time, become the dominant economic and military power. They are > > taking a gradual, controlled shift to Capitalism. They also have a more > > favorable infrustructure than that of Russia to make that shift. > > This is true, but I deliberately didn't mention it. The question here > is not "are they going to become more powerful than us?" (and thus "so > we'd better keep our mouths shut"), but "of the alternatives open to > them, how did this rate?". The alternatives are a reason for pause arn't they. The good news is that we probably don't have to concern ourselves with them right now or any time soon. Hopefully! They had their chance to use their military might in Vietnam but chose not to do it. Taiwan could be another matter. I suspect that Clinton is over there at about the right time. Frank > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 18:55:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15349 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:55:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15343; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:55:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-2-83.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.211]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id UAA05089; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:55:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id UAA01336; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:55:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980629015532.ZM1335@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:55:32 +0000 In-Reply-To: Josef Grosch "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 6:33pm) References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> <19980628183355.A11012@mooseriver.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, "Jason C. Wells" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: Frank Pawlak , drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 6:33pm, Josef Grosch wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 03:27:43PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > based upon reading madison, jefferson and other FF's (founding > > > fathers), the second amendment to the constitution was enacted > > > in order to guarantee the citizentry's ability to oppose > > > a tyrannical government, and thereby prevent that government > > > from forming. > > > > Fair. > > > > > ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. > > > if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather > > > then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own > > > heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. > > > > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > > the South East Asian theater make this statement. > > > > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. > > > > [ DELETED ] > > I'm not convinced. I think that people who have this vision of a rag tag > militia fighting against overwhelming odds have seen Red Dawn and John > Wayne movies too many times. Remember that Mohandas K. Gandhi and > Dr. Martin Luther King using only nonviolent non-cooperation had a major > impact on their respective political situation. Anyone who is my age or > older and can remember the evil that was Selma and Montgomery can tell you > what a powerful tool that nonviolent non-cooperation is. > > I must confess, however, that as a Jew who is lost several relatives during > the holocaust, I do have trouble squaring Dr. King's and Gandhi's methods > with the evil that was Nazis Germany. > > > Josef > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses >-- End of excerpt from Josef Grosch Josef, There are times when brute force is required. It was required in Selma and Montgomery, where federal troups were poised to move in and settle the situation, and insure that equal rights were enforced. I won't speak about Nazi Germany, because the German people have suffered nuch as a result of a very bad situation. However, you have my sympathy. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 19:54:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21778 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21767; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:54:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806290254.TAA21767@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <980629011407.ZM1184@darkstar.connect.com> from Frank Pawlak at "Jun 29, 98 01:14:07 am" To: fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, jcwells@u.washington.edu, fpawlak@execpc.com, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank Pawlak wrote: > On Jun 28, 5:05pm, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > > Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > > > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > > > the South East Asian theater make this statement. > > > > an insurgency supported by the local population against a > > visibly distinct opposing force is formidable, indeed. > > those characteristics do not and would not obtain in the USA. > > > > > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > > > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. > > > > well, i beg to differ. please speak to some veterans about > > arty and its affects on infantry. (one hint: arty kills > > more infantry than *anything* else, sometimes more than all > > other weapons combined). > > Until modern, read post Vietnam, arty was indeed the biggest killer on the > battle field, and absorbed the fewest casualties. Will not get into tactics > but, infantry is vital except of carrier based airpower. agreed, infantry is vital, not a tough spot to be in. > > > > > alternatively talk to vietnam vets about the effects of > > repeated airstrikes on the survivors. watch them whenever > > they hear a plane close overhead. not a pretty sight. > > Saved my ass amny times. Not much of a problem here, except when somebody f'ed > up and shit was dropped on the friendlies. The North Vietnam Air Force was a > lot like their navy. No BFD. i was thinking about VC and NVA survivors, and their reactions to aircraft. > > > > what would it have availed the chinese students to have > > > > small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have > > > > forestalled action by the gov't. > > > > > > No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid > > > discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of > > > power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the > > > weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift > > > in power. > > > > yes, given sufficient number and external support, if they > > could survive that long. > > No nation in their right mind would have intervened in that event. The whole > world would have been a nuclear disaster. End of story. > > > > > i am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but rather believe > > that the odds are very long. people that play long odds in war > > are called casualties. > > Generally true. However I could relate cases where the opposite was true. some do make it. there are living recipients of the congressional medal of honor. you dont have to die to get one, but it sure helps ;) ugh...i'm getting morose....time for me to quit this thread. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 19:57:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22294 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:57:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22275; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806290257.TAA22275@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <199806290254.TAA21767@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jun 28, 98 07:54:18 pm" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, jcwells@u.washington.edu, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > Until modern, read post Vietnam, arty was indeed the biggest killer on the > > battle field, and absorbed the fewest casualties. Will not get into tactics > > but, infantry is vital except of carrier based airpower. > > agreed, infantry is vital, not a tough spot to be in. but a tough spot to be in. typo ;( jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 19:58:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22571 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:58:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22565; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:58:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-1-146.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.136.148]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA13088; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:58:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA01475; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:59:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980629025900.ZM1474@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 02:59:00 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 7:54pm) References: <199806290254.TAA21767@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 7:54pm, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > On Jun 28, 5:05pm, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > > > Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > > > > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > > > > the South East Asian theater make this statement. > > > > > > an insurgency supported by the local population against a > > > visibly distinct opposing force is formidable, indeed. > > > those characteristics do not and would not obtain in the USA. > > > > > > > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > > > > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. > > > > > > well, i beg to differ. please speak to some veterans about > > > arty and its affects on infantry. (one hint: arty kills > > > more infantry than *anything* else, sometimes more than all > > > other weapons combined). > > > > Until modern, read post Vietnam, arty was indeed the biggest killer on the > > battle field, and absorbed the fewest casualties. Will not get into tactics > > but, infantry is vital except of carrier based airpower. > > agreed, infantry is vital, not a tough spot to be in. > > > > > > > > > alternatively talk to vietnam vets about the effects of > > > repeated airstrikes on the survivors. watch them whenever > > > they hear a plane close overhead. not a pretty sight. > > > > Saved my ass amny times. Not much of a problem here, except when somebody f'ed > > up and shit was dropped on the friendlies. The North Vietnam Air Force was a > > lot like their navy. No BFD. > > i was thinking about VC and NVA survivors, and their reactions > to aircraft. > > > > > > what would it have availed the chinese students to have > > > > > small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have > > > > > forestalled action by the gov't. > > > > > > > > No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid > > > > discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of > > > > power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the > > > > weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift > > > > in power. > > > > > > yes, given sufficient number and external support, if they > > > could survive that long. > > > > No nation in their right mind would have intervened in that event. The whole > > world would have been a nuclear disaster. End of story. > > > > > > > > i am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but rather believe > > > that the odds are very long. people that play long odds in war > > > are called casualties. > > > > Generally true. However I could relate cases where the opposite was true. > > some do make it. there are living recipients of the congressional > medal of honor. you dont have to die to get one, but it sure > helps ;) > > ugh...i'm getting morose....time for me to quit this thread. > jmb > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Jonathan M. Bresler You appear to have some solid knowledge of the Vietnam war. Were you in the shit? Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 20:05:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23208 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:05:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23199; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806290305.UAA23199@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <980629025900.ZM1474@darkstar.connect.com> from Frank Pawlak at "Jun 29, 98 02:59:00 am" To: fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, fpawlak@execpc.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank Pawlak wrote: > > You appear to have some solid knowledge of the Vietnam war. Were you in the > shit? missed vietnam by a couple years. but there's enough shit in the world to go around. several friends brothers were/are there. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 20:17:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26407 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26347; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-1-146.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.136.148]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id WAA14655; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:17:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA01586; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:17:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980629031716.ZM1585@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 03:17:16 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 28, 8:05pm) References: <199806290305.UAA23199@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 28, 8:05pm, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > > You appear to have some solid knowledge of the Vietnam war. Were you in the > > shit? > > > missed vietnam by a couple years. but there's enough shit in > the world to go around. several friends brothers were/are there. > jmb >-- End of excerpt from Jonathan M. Bresler I hope that they all made it home OK. Best wishes. I had to leave some behind. Frank 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry: 1st Cavalry Division. Ia Drang Valley 1965 We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he today that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother. - Shakespeare, Henry V, Act IV, Scene 3 With this I disengage from this thread..... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 20:22:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27225 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27216; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:22:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-1-146.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.136.148]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id WAA11999; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:22:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA01602; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:22:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980629032213.ZM1601@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 03:22:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Frank Pawlak" "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 29, 3:17am) References: <199806290305.UAA23199@hub.freebsd.org> <980629031716.ZM1585@darkstar.connect.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Frank Pawlak" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 29, 3:17am, Frank Pawlak wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > On Jun 28, 8:05pm, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > > > > You appear to have some solid knowledge of the Vietnam war. Were you in > the > > > shit? > > > > > > missed vietnam by a couple years. but there's enough shit in > > the world to go around. several friends brothers were/are there. > > jmb > >-- End of excerpt from Jonathan M. Bresler > > I hope that they all made it home OK. Best wishes. I had to leave some > behind. > > Frank > US Army: 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry: 1st Cavalry Division. > Ia Drang Valley, South Vietnam > 1965 > We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; > For he today that sheds his blood with me > Shall be my brother. > > - Shakespeare, Henry V, Act IV, Scene 3 > > With this I disengage from this thread..... > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Frank Pawlak To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 20:46:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29505 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:46:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29497 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:46:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA01407; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:16:09 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980629131609.L897@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:16:09 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: How the Germans discovered Sex Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Last week at USENIX, we touched on this matter, and I promised to send an old mail message. Here it is. ---- Begin ancient message ---- This message went round the Tandem internal mail system a while back. The original message (down to the attached reply) is by Dave Kirby (kirby_dave@tandem.com), the reply is by me. Excuse if you will the shouting in the headers. Greg Lehey (grog%lemis@germany.eu.net, whatever the headers on *this* message say). SENT: 89-06-01 23:58 FROM: KIRBY_DAVE @PRUNE SUBJECT: Grumpy Grammarian finds loophole I believe in the English language, and believe that rules for spelling, punctuation, and grammar are necessary, just as any game must have rules so that all the players know where they are in relation to the game and to each other. But I've discovered that not only is it sometimes acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition, it is sometimes *mandatory*. For example, "The breeze blew up her dress" is nowhere near the same thing as "The breeze blew her dress up." ------------------------------------------ In Reply to: 89-06-01 23:58 FROM KIRBY_DAVE @PRUNE Grumpy Grammarian finds loophole Dave, this particular rule must be seen in historical perspective: Once upon a time, there were a couple of German tribes, one from the North, one from the South. The ones from the South went downriver to where the ones from the North were, and found life wasn't much better there either, so they set off together looking for a New World. In fact, they ended up on an island off the German coast, which they called Sex in honour of the tribe from the south. It is still a matter of some discussion as to whether they realised they had not found the New World or not. In any case, they soon found that the island was so big that they had to divide it into geographical areas, such as Es-Sex, Sus-Sex and Wes-Sex (never did hear what happened to Nor-Sex). They brought their language with them, including interesting verb conjugation syntax such as separable verbs. A separable verb is a verb starting with a preposition (where else would you put a preposition? Wait and see). An example might be the verb "upblawan", to blow up. Immediately we see a problem, typified by the Irishman who went to Dublin to blow up a bus and burnt his lips. The clever Sex-ones did not ignore the syntax of their language, and conjugated these two meanings differently. The following example should make this clear: 1. An Scots-Mann gaeth to Dublin and bleowth up anan for-allan. He barn his lippes. 2. An Scots-Mann gaeth to Dublin and bleowth anan for-allan up. Seofon and twentig was se toll thaes deadra. To be sure that this is understood, we should translate it into a semblance of English: 1. An Irishman went to Dublin and blew up a for-all. He burned his lips. 2. An Irishman went to Dublin, and blew a for-all up. Seven and twenty was the toll of the dead thereof. Aside: The astute reader will note some interesting details. In particular, the Engels and the Sex-ones were very hazy when it came to geography. Thus they considered the Irish to be Scots (though some say that this is due to problems of comprehension, such as still exist today). In addition, as we have also seen, they appeared to have taken Sex to be the New World. This misconception may have some bearing on the manner in which Sex is still treated in the New World. Yet another example is the handbook of the Englo-Sex-one language, Swede's Englo-Sex-one primer, written for the Nor-Manns some centuries later. As we will see, it failed to achieve its original purpose. In addition, a detail is apparent which causes some embarassment to modern Englishmen: as is well-known, the foreigners from the other side of the channel cannot pronounce the sound "th". It would appear that this once also applied to the Engels and the Sex-ones, since their word for "the" was "se". The example we see here must represent a snapshot in the transition to the use of this sound. The reason for the change is still obscure, though the leading theory attributes the changes to the unique weather which prevailed (and still, true to its tenacity, prevails) in Sex. Finally, the Engel-ish version no longer has the inflections at the end of nouns and verbs. We will see the reasons for this later. With these simple syntactical rules, all was well. In the meantime, however, the Norwegians were moving. Having determined that there were more pleasant climates than their own (in fact, that all climates were more pleasant than their own), they moved to the French coast, a habit they continue to do to this day. And, then as now, they were not received with open arms by the French. After a while, they decided that what they really needed was a bit of Sex. Off they set in their boats and headed, not, as you might expect, to Nor-Sex (by this time they had changed their names to Nor-Mann, and you would expect Nor-Sex to suit a Nor-Mann, wouldn't you?), but to Sus-Sex, presumably because they didn't understand the language. By this time, you see, they had also adopted French as their language in order to confuse the native French. It turns out that you can still win a battle without speaking the language, if needs be by poking the right people in the eye, and Sus-Sex was taken over by the Nor-Manns. In due course, they became masters of all Sex, leaving the other people there, the Engels, to call the place Engel-Land. Apart from this minor setback, however, the Nor-Manns remained victorious. They set to remodelling the Englo-Sex-one language so they could understand it. The French, you see, have a habit of emphasising the last syllable of each word, whereas most other people of the time emphasised the penultimate syllable. The result was that anything which came after the stressed syllable got dropped from the spoken language, leaving just enough at the end of each word to make spelling of the language almost impossible (especially considering their strange rules of sexual union; but that is another story). For such people it made little sense to put important parts of words or sentences at the end. (Other sources, notably [Goscinny, Uderzo, 1967], claim that a habitual over-consumption of wine and spirits, originally driven by the high prices for alcohol in Nor-Way, led to the Nor-Manns being habitually drunk and thus unable to summon the attention span necessary to wait until the end of the sentence). As a result, they constructed artifical and ill-suited rules which made the language easier to understand in the 95% of the time when they were drunk, but occasionally caused significant pain to Celts unable to understand the background presented above. Today, we are on the brink of the reunification of Europe for the first time since the days of Carol the Gross (or Charles the Magnifier, as the Nor-Manns would say, not to be confused with Charles of France, who was big to start with). In 1992 all Europe will be magnified, no unified, from the Meuse to the Nemunas and from the Adige to the Baelt (no, wait a while, that was the last, unsuccessful attempt). Now is the time, with antiquated traditions away to do. Speak we the Englo-Sex-one language thus, as would our fore fathers a-done have! Belive we the speech of our ancestors again, show we pride in the a-wrestlings of the past! Speak-an-un-forfalsed-tongue-once-more-ing you what Grog ---- End ancient message ---- -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 21:16:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02784 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02777 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:16:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-152.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.152]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA25027 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:16:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23371 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:46:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199806282346.SAA23371@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-reply-to: Message from Gary Kline of "Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:19:32 PDT." <199806280319.UAA12882@athena.tera.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:46:18 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary Kline writes: > > C'mon, guys, let's get _really_ real... We need to > abolish handguns altogether, since, let's face it: > the only thing a .454 Colt Bisley is meant to kill > is a human target. --One, maybe two for the expert > shooter. You are wrong. Often when purchasing a hunting license it is pointed out that only certain weapons are allowed to be used. An extreme example would be bow season for hunting deer. A finer example would be the use of steel vs. lead shot for hunting birds. If memory serves, 20 years ago a .454 pistol was legal for hunting bear in Virginia. Believe a .357 magnum and larger was allowed. The argument that a certain weapon "is only good for human targets" is lame and ignorant. A pistol of .380 calibre (for the ignorant, a .380 is smaller than a .357) or larger would be just right for stopping an attacking dog, such as a pit bull. Of course some wish to outlaw pit bulls too. I still believe computers are more dangerous. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 21:16:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02800 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:16:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02778 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:16:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-152.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.152]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA26964 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:16:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23384 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:52:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199806282352.SAA23384@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-reply-to: Message from Josef Grosch of "Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:16:59 PDT." <19980628021659.A3265@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:52:23 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch writes: > > > > > > There is probably not a single Wal-Mart or K-Mart in the continental US > > > that doesn't sell "deer whistles" to be mounted on your front bumper. > > > The theory is a deer will run from the right high pitched whistle as > > > some vehicles were observed to be hit by deer very rarely, and guessed > > > this was due to their sound. > > > > I am well aware of these devices and their purpose. I have heard that > > they do work. I have racked up about 100,000 miles driving between > > Minneapolis and Milwaukee, a 750 mile round trip, and have yet to hit a > > deer. That area of the state has a very heavy deer population. I don't > > use whistles. Maybe I am just luckey or careful and have some knowledge > > of what to look for when deer are present. A lot of those miles were > > driven in the 90 mph range. Course I also drive race cars, not as much > > as I use to, which may account for alertness and quick reactions. > > > > I do not agree. My first wife had one of those things on her car and in the > 4 years she had the car she must have hit 2 deer a year. The car was > trashed by the time we got rid of it. It became a standing joke with the > local police to ask her if she had a permit to hunt deer with her car. ;-) > My experance is that those devices have no affect weither you hit a deer or > not. I have known people who had them and never hit a deer and people who > had them who were getting their limit every season using their car. Plainly we need a new federal agency for regulation and certification of "deer whistles". Furthermore they should trap and test all deer to make sure their hearing is good. Obviously if the deer's hearing isn't good enough to hear the deer whistles, man must be at fault for making too much noise and/or pollution. Congress should appropriate money to remedy this terrible ill. Hearing aids for deer! -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 21:56:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05707 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05702 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:56:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23018; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:55:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:55:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806290455.WAA23018@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) From: Wes Peters To: grog@lemis.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <19980629105035.E897@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980629105035.E897@freebie.lemis.com> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA05703 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: % > only to find that the police killed your wife for commiting the % > heinous crime of having a second child. % % How often does that happen? I've never heard of it. Even if it does, % it's not the norm. I'd guess (based only on my own patchy observation % of news media) that it's about as likely to happen as getting shot on % the highway in the US. Not according to the state social worker who applied for asylum in the USA several weeks ago, and was interviewed on one of the "news magazine" shows here last week. She had an epiphany when one of the illegal young mothers brought into her clinic and locked up for "correction" was some sort of relative, and decided to leave the country with her case files. It appears that policy dictated the clinic abort the first unauthorized child, forcibly if necessary, and sterilize the mother after aborting the second. Several women during her years of service were simply killed outright because they physically resisted their "treatment." If you want quotes of the report, I'll see if I can find which show it was reported on. % In any case, I was talking about *me*. I have been offered jobs both % in Beijing and in large US cities (though not in India or Russia), and % I have a fair idea of what my living conditions would have been like. % Note that I turned them all down. I've never been offered a job in Beijing (although they'd probably be delighted if they knew much of my background), but have been offered jobs in many major cities in the USA, and a couple in Europe. I didn't take any of the European jobs because I have absolutely no wish to live there, although I would like to visit a few countries. I have lived in many of the larger US cities, and have found none of them to be frightening, even after dark. I've been held up at gunpoint once, in Indianaplis, and at knifepoint once, in Seattle, neither of which would make most people's list of the scariest cities in the USA. I consider both experiences an anomoly, and felt less threatend by either of them than I did by the man who threw a cinder block through my school bus window to "protest" the forced bussing of children when it started in the south. % ... The real question to ask (and one for which I have no obvious % answer) is: who lives a happier life, the slum-dwellers in the US, in % India, in China or in Russia? I certainly don't see any particular % reason to decide for the US or against China, especially after you % remove the problem of overpopulation (against which the Chinese % Government, unlike the Indian Government, is doing something). That is probably the most intelligent point brought up in this entire thread. Between you and I, a more important question would be, in which place are we most likely to find happiness for ourselves and our families? If I thought that was more likely in China or Russia or Australia or South Borneo, I'd be living there today. I see the quality of life in the Salt Lake Valley diminishing rapidly, and have been looking for an upgrade path for several years now. While I try to be as open-minded as possible, I certainly won't be moving my family to some totalitarian dunghole with zero respect for human rights like China. % > Let's not forget where the criminals in China are - the government % > itself. % % I think that claim needs a little justification. See the above-mentioned report by the Chinese "welfare worker." -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 22:07:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06524 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06519 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:07:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA01511; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:37:07 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980629143707.Q897@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:37:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) References: <19980629105035.E897@freebie.lemis.com> <199806290455.WAA23018@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806290455.WAA23018@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 10:55:35PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 28 June 1998 at 22:55:35 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: > >>> only to find that the police killed your wife for commiting the >>> heinous crime of having a second child. >> >> How often does that happen? I've never heard of it. Even if it does, >> it's not the norm. I'd guess (based only on my own patchy observation >> of news media) that it's about as likely to happen as getting shot on >> the highway in the US. > > Not according to the state social worker who applied for asylum in the USA > several weeks ago, and was interviewed on one of the "news magazine" shows > here last week. She had an epiphany when one of the illegal young mothers > brought into her clinic and locked up for "correction" was some sort of > relative, and decided to leave the country with her case files. It appears > that policy dictated the clinic abort the first unauthorized child, forcibly > if necessary, and sterilize the mother after aborting the second. Several > women during her years of service were simply killed outright because they > physically resisted their "treatment." If you want quotes of the report, I'll > see if I can find which show it was reported on. We're getting out of focus here, and maybe we ned to wrap up this particular subthread. But your comments are missing a number of points: 1. Forced abortion and forced sterilization. For Christians, of course, an abomination. In China, quite possibly law. Yes, I can believe they do this. After seeing what has happened in the 30 years between my two visits to India, I can understand the Chinese view. 2. "Simply killed outright". Did she bring documentation of this as well? How often? Where? Why? If they had the power to kill, they had the power to anaesthetize and sterilize. > I have lived in many of the larger US cities, and have found none of them to > be frightening, even after dark. I've been held up at gunpoint once, in > Indianaplis, and at knifepoint once, in Seattle, neither of which would make > most people's list of the scariest cities in the USA. I consider both > experiences an anomoly, and felt less threatend by either of them than I did > by the man who threw a cinder block through my school bus window to "protest" > the forced bussing of children when it started in the south. I think this shows the degree to which people can adapt to adverse circumstances. I think your experiences (first hand, and thus *much* more plausible) are very frightening, not so much for what happened to you (nothing) as for the fact that it happened twice in "safe" cities, and because of your lack of concern about it. I've been in lots of places in the world, and nothing like that has ever happened to me. >> ... The real question to ask (and one for which I have no obvious >> answer) is: who lives a happier life, the slum-dwellers in the US, in >> India, in China or in Russia? I certainly don't see any particular >> reason to decide for the US or against China, especially after you >> remove the problem of overpopulation (against which the Chinese >> Government, unlike the Indian Government, is doing something). > > That is probably the most intelligent point brought up in this entire thread. > Between you and I, a more important question would be, in which place are we > most likely to find happiness for ourselves and our families? > > If I thought that was more likely in China or Russia or Australia or South > Borneo, I'd be living there today. Ditto. > I see the quality of life in the Salt Lake Valley diminishing > rapidly, and have been looking for an upgrade path for several years > now. While I try to be as open-minded as possible, I certainly > won't be moving my family to some totalitarian dunghole with zero > respect for human rights like China. Again, I think this is based on a lack of understanding, certainly helped by the US media's reports. >>> Let's not forget where the criminals in China are - the government >>> itself. >> >> I think that claim needs a little justification. > > See the above-mentioned report by the Chinese "welfare worker." Let's see a URL or something. I'm not denying that this happened. After all, even in Australia (and quite possibly in the US) forced sterilizations have been practised. The difference is that in Australia they had only a very tenuous legal basis. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 22:11:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07242 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:11:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07235 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:11:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA22520; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:20:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199806290520.PAA22520@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) In-Reply-To: <19980629143707.Q897@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jun 29, 98 02:37:07 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:20:07 +1000 (EST) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > We're getting out of focus here, and maybe we ned to wrap up this > particular subthread. Must be time to talk about Volvo drivers then. 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 22:15:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07571 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07554 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA01619; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:45:05 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980629144505.S897@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:45:05 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Birrell Cc: wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) References: <19980629143707.Q897@freebie.lemis.com> <199806290520.PAA22520@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806290520.PAA22520@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 03:20:07PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 15:20:07 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> We're getting out of focus here, and maybe we ned to wrap up this >> particular subthread. > > Must be time to talk about Volvo drivers then. 8-) You've got me there. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 22:20:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08115 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08107 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA22552; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:30:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199806290530.PAA22552@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) In-Reply-To: <19980629144505.S897@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jun 29, 98 02:45:05 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:30:41 +1000 (EST) Cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 15:20:07 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > >> We're getting out of focus here, and maybe we ned to wrap up this > >> particular subthread. > > > > Must be time to talk about Volvo drivers then. 8-) > > You've got me there. It's one emotive subject that hasn't been covered by any of the recent sub-threads. And since my little reference to "gun" was picked up so well, I just thought I'd throw another morsel to the yadda-yaddas. 8-) [ Sorry, Volvo drivers are my pet hate today after an old lady tried to share a lane where there wasn't room. ] -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 00:14:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21143 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21116 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:14:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw157.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw157 [192.23.231.83]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA05101 ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:13:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw157.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA06592; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:13:39 +0200 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: How the Germans discovered Sex References: <19980629131609.L897@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 29 Jun 1998 09:13:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:16:09 +0930 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > With these simple syntactical rules, all was well. In the meantime, > however, the Norwegians were moving. Having determined that there > were more pleasant climates than their own (in fact, that all > climates were more pleasant than their own), Hey! I resent that! DES (a little wet from the rain) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 00:31:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23279 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23272 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:31:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id AAA39420; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:31:49 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id AAA06902; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:21:23 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Josef Grosch cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <19980628183355.A11012@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: >On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 03:27:43PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >> I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the >> population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of >> the South East Asian theater make this statement. >> >> I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of >> opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. >I'm not convinced. I think that people who have this vision of a rag tag >militia fighting against overwhelming odds have seen Red Dawn and John >Wayne movies too many times. Remember that Mohandas K. Gandhi and >Dr. Martin Luther King using only nonviolent non-cooperation had a major >impact on their respective political situation. Anyone who is my age or >older and can remember the evil that was Selma and Montgomery can tell you >what a powerful tool that nonviolent non-cooperation is. I base my opinion here on the US revolution, Viet Nam, and Afgahnistan. I do not base anything worthy of this discussion on Hollywood. >I must confess, however, that as a Jew who is lost several relatives during >the holocaust, I do have trouble squaring Dr. King's and Gandhi's methods >with the evil that was Nazis Germany. Fair. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 01:08:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27171 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA27156 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16761; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:08:21 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA20894; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:08:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980629100818.22528@follo.net> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:08:18 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: drifter@stratos.net, Wes Peters , fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <19980629010045.04155@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 08:43:28PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 08:43:28PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > Not true. An infant has people that relate to it, even though they > > haven't met it yet. > > Then doesn't it have (a) value just as you or me? It does have value. Just as a dog has value. The question is at what point you consider that value high enough to warrant what protection. > Regardless, you almost sound as if you're argueing against > abortion, now. :) It is just a question of where you put the line for what you consider human. We all agree to put the limit somewhere between the sperm/ova and the point a healthy baby being born 9 months later - it is only a question of where. I don't believe in magic (souls et al), so I can't see much point in placing the limit very early. A baby don't "feel human" for some months after conception, and it isn't reasonably intelligent for a similar amount of time. Thus little happen to give it value, except possibly as an abstract concept. If you get societal problems from people relating to this abstract concept being terminated, by all means evaluate ways of stopping them. I'd start with "sex education" ;-) Personally, I'm fairly certain _my_ society overall get benefits from its policy. From what I've seen, abortion is mostly used by those that wouldn't be ready to be parents anyway, where their children most likely wouldn't get a good life, and would become the future underside of society. I believe this is for the good. (I may have what seem somewhat strange views on some of this; this comes from not believing in the intrinsic value of human life. This is a hard-earned belief; I got it after going through a series of self-crafted hells). > > Of course :-) Human worth is a gradual process, much related to at > > which point we're conditioned to consider people to have it. It get > > ridicilous almost no matter how you slice it, as we're just talking > > about an abstraction, a feeling. > > I would suggest that some definitions are considerably cleaner, > in the same way a well-designed computer system is cleaner. So give me a "clean" definition to rip to pieces ;-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 01:13:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28126 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA28108 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:13:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16909; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:13:47 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA20928; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:13:46 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980629101346.51814@follo.net> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:13:46 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: How the Germans discovered Sex References: <19980629131609.L897@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4ra08of30=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Mon=2C_Jun_29=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_09=3A13=3A39AM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:13:39AM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: > > With these simple syntactical rules, all was well. In the meantime, > > however, the Norwegians were moving. Having determined that there > > were more pleasant climates than their own (in fact, that all > > climates were more pleasant than their own), > > Hey! I resent that! Go blow a wet labrador retriever. All other climates _are_ more pleasant. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 01:28:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02010 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA01860 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id AAA26540; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:50:03 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id AAA27830; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:39:37 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Frank Pawlak cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) In-Reply-To: <980629014555.ZM1307@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: >The alternatives are a reason for pause arn't they. The good news is that we >probably don't have to concern ourselves with them right now or any time soon. > Hopefully! They had their chance to use their military might in Vietnam but >chose not to do it. Taiwan could be another matter. I suspect that Clinton is >over there at about the right time. Hmmm. China, Taiwan, and US. One of these days a Chinese training exercise and a US training exercise in the vicinity of Taiwan will go sour. One of their missiles will hit one of our ships and we will summarily dispatch said ship. If you don't think we will take out a Chinese vessel you better think again. Twelve miles out is international waters. There are no DMZs out there. The point here is that Taiwan is bigger deal than most think. We already did one "training exercise" out there. A Chinese missile splashed into the ocean. I can be pretty sure that our torpedo batteries were one teeny flip covered push button away manned by a 20 year old petty officer from "Tube One Away." That, friends, is a very thin margin of error between two nuclear superpowers. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 01:28:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02210 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:28:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02042 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:28:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw157.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw157 [192.23.231.83]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA09295 ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:27:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw157.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA06729; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:27:19 +0200 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: How the Germans discovered Sex References: <19980629131609.L897@freebie.lemis.com> <19980629101346.51814@follo.net> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 29 Jun 1998 10:27:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: Eivind Eklund's message of Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:13:46 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:13:39AM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > Greg Lehey writes: > > > With these simple syntactical rules, all was well. In the meantime, > > > however, the Norwegians were moving. Having determined that there > > > were more pleasant climates than their own (in fact, that all > > > climates were more pleasant than their own), > > Hey! I resent that! > Go blow a wet labrador retriever. All other climates _are_ more > pleasant. Hmmm... Interesting choice of imagery. You have a twisted mind :) DES (who would very much like to be in Cuba right now, but for other reasons) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 06:24:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13103 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 06:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (intranet.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA13038 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 06:24:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.128.41]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA343; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:22:40 +0200 Message-ID: <35979532.952629BA@pipeline.ch> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:22:58 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: Frank Pawlak , Gary Kline , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: -snip- > On the causes of crime and the effect punishment has there can be much > debate because it is such an obtuse subject. I might in turn argue that > Saudi Arabia has a low crime because of it's terrible punishments. I might > argue that Switerzland has low crime because everyone is armed. I think > such comparisons must be considered carefully. The US is not Switzerland > or Saudi Arabia. The situation here in Switzerland is very different to the US. It right that nearly every man here has a weapon in his locker but that is a rifle from the military. They get intensive training on that weapon for 15 weeks the first time and then they have to fire some rounds every year. So these people are educated about the effect of the weapons and know exactly that it is only for the time of war. These weapons are commonly used in family tragedies where the family father kill his family and himself for some reason. These weapons are in practice never used for 'normal' crime. Pistols and such are not so easy to get (everyone over 18 can buy a rifle, but automatics are strictly prohibited), you have to prove your non- criminal history and a successful weapon training. You're only allowed to carry handguns in it's case and not ready to fire. It very hard to get a weapon carry permission and it's only possible for persons that can prove a special need (such as bodyguards). We have indeed problems with illegal weapons, mostly illegal imported from former Yugoslavia (only ~200mi away). Very nasty things come from there, i.e. 'gun pens' (looks like thick pen and if you click it, it shoots into your face), hand grenades, etc. Those things are almost exclusively used by drug and other (red light) gangs and only among themselves. In Switzerland more climbers die in the mountains than people are murdered. You are right that Switzerland has a lot of weapons but most of them are rifles = inconvenient. No one carries a rifle all the time ;-). > This still leaves us with how to end murderousness in the US. I do not > think the death penalty will achieve this. Nor do I propose to abolish the > death penalty. What I do believe is that mutual repsect for fellow > citizens and for the law can reduce murderousness. Here we don't have the death penalty but lifetime sentence, that are 25 years in prison and you can get probation after 15 years. Only psychos go into safekeeping after that. The problem is the following: - Only someone who intentionally wants to kill someone thinks about the consequences - Most people tend switch off their brain in conflict situations and try to use the most powerful tool they can get (a knife, weapon, etc.) and they clearly don't think about the consequences even they may face the death penalty > How I would achieve this respect is difficult, but it includes a huge dose > of education. Perhaps I have strayed from the "gun" issue here, but I > think this statement follows from my fundamental position of "human" > responsibilty. I don't believe in the "gun" problem but I do believe in > the "human" problem. Humans become 'unresponsible' (don't think anymore, kill or get killed) in conflict situations, after that the conflict escalates and the most powerful tool is used. If there is a weapon handy it will de used, regardless of the consequences. > If we can "fix" the human condition then perhaps we may have peace. That would be impossible (until can something with drugs or genetic manipulation against human behavior). IMO it should be mandatory to learn how to deal with conflicts and how to avoid / de-escalate them. -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 08:07:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01035 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6515.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01012 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:06:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00288; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:07:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:07:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Eivind Eklund cc: Tim Vanderhoek , drifter@stratos.net, Wes Peters , fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <19980629100818.22528@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > Then doesn't it have (a) value just as you or me? > > It does have value. Just as a dog has value. The question is at what > point you consider that value high enough to warrant what protection. [...] > It is just a question of where you put the line for what you consider > human. We all agree to put the limit somewhere between the sperm/ova > and the point a healthy baby being born 9 months later - it is only a > question of where. Unless the limit is something ``just exists'' (as opposed to something that we can define by common agreement). Enter the whole idea of what you refer to as "magic". (Of course, nothing makes the absence of magic less magical than its presence other than our present sensibilities.) And, of course, you can use a sliding scale without any limit at all. That's a little scary... > > I would suggest that some definitions are considerably cleaner, > > in the same way a well-designed computer system is cleaner. > > So give me a "clean" definition to rip to pieces ;-) Hehe. And then you would attack it using arguments I don't agree with, and I would defend it using arguments that I don't agree with, and the end result would be nothing at all. :) Anyways, even if I wanted to, I don't think I could hand you a clean definition. I have definate preferences which, I have reason to believe, differ from yours :), but any attempt to say what is human also has to define death, and I have yet to see anyone handle that neatly. Besides that, this is a Broken World, and it may well be that there no longer is a clean definition. That would put my whole argument in a rather difficult spot. ;-) Essentially, the only argument I have is that some placements of the limit result in a fuzzier definition of what is human and what is not. [to use your terminology, of course: the implications of words like "limit", "fuzzier", "definition" are not necessarily intended :] -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 08:29:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05206 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6515.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05181 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:29:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00320; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:30:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:30:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: IBS / Andre Oppermann cc: "Jason C. Wells" , Frank Pawlak , Gary Kline , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: <35979532.952629BA@pipeline.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > The problem is the following: > - Only someone who intentionally wants to kill someone thinks about the > consequences And they don't think they'll get caught. > - Most people tend switch off their brain in conflict situations and try > to use the most powerful tool they can get (a knife, weapon, etc.) and > they clearly don't think about the consequences even they may face the > death penalty -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 11:25:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07284 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:25:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (www.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07171 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from neuron.webmore.com (unverified [194.95.214.171]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:26:22 +0200 Received: (from malte@webmore.com) by neuron.webmore.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00397; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:22:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:22:35 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: malte@webmore.com From: Malte Lance To: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28-Jun-98 Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Malte Lance wrote: > >>In the end in both cases the effect is human life being ended by some >>action of human beings. I don't think anyone has the right to forcibly end >>human life except its own. Doing so makes them act on the same low level. >>And at least it does not help much. > > In a perfect world we need not even discuss this. > > In this world there have been, are, and will be those who will not refrain > from crimes against society and even crimes against humanity until they > are put under the threat of terror. We call these people murderers and > tyrants. Life is not created by law and therefor life should not be ended by law. Jason, you very well know there is another solution. Why not kick that kind of monster into prison for aprox. 25 years. Would have the same effect. No need to kill. Remember: Every human being has a right to live. This right is not given by law of some country and not by some other person. It is given to a human being by birth. If you disagree we've found the point why our thinking differs. Malte. > > Keep in mind... these people _will not stop_ until they are killed. > > What then do we do? There are two choices. We can be tyrannized or we can > kill. > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Malte Lance Date: 29-Jun-98 Time: 18:39:28 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 12:27:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20791 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:27:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.tol.it (mail.tin.it [194.243.154.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20763 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@tin.it) Received: from dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (a-bu2-7.tin.it [212.216.1.6]) by mail.tol.it (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA21660 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:26:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 2066 invoked by uid 1000); 29 Jun 1998 17:50:31 -0000 Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:50:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Quote of the day (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry guys, I couldn't resist ;-) Marco ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 03:50:03 -0600 From: Quote of the day To: Quote of the day mailing list Subject: Quote of the day "... C++ offers even more flexible control over the visibility of member objects and member functions. Specifically, members may be placed in the public, private, or protected parts of a class. Members declared in the public parts are visible to all clients; members declared in the private parts are fully encapsulated; and members declared in the protected parts are visible only to the class itself and its subclasses. C++ also supports the notion of *friends*: cooperative classes that are permitted to see each other's private parts." - Grady Booch describes his notion of friendship, "Object Oriented Design with Applications" Submitted by: captain Feb. 24, 1998 -------------------------------------------------------------- Send quotation submissions to qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca Send list changes or requests to qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 13:20:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00427 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:20:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00341; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrI-26.aei.ca [206.186.205.176]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA10648; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3597F619.4C82C04A@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:16:25 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fewtch@serv.net CC: Daniel Guetzkow , "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FW: No more on the topic of personal Emails, I promise... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ********** Subject: Date:Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:57:32 -0400 From:Malartre To:majordomo@freebsd.org unsubscribe freebsd-stable malartre@aei.ca ********** Subject:Majordomo results Date:Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:00:39 -0700 (PDT) From:Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG To:malartre@aei.ca >>>> unsubscribe freebsd-stable malartre@aei.ca Succeeded. ********** That sucks. It was a test to see how the unsubscribe work. All people can unsubscribe me(or anyother) from any list. This is playing with fire. I could unsubscribe everyone on this list. -- [Malartre] [malartre@aei.ca][ICQ#4224434][www.aei.ca/~malartre/][www.FreeBSD.ORG] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 13:35:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03453 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:35:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03244; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05455; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 06:34:16 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980630063413.15924@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 06:34:13 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Malartre Cc: fewtch@serv.net, Daniel Guetzkow , "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: majordomo References: <3597F619.4C82C04A@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3597F619.4C82C04A@aei.ca>; from Malartre on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:16:25PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:16:25PM -0400, Malartre wrote: > ********** > Subject: > Date:Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:57:32 -0400 > From:Malartre > To:majordomo@freebsd.org > unsubscribe freebsd-stable malartre@aei.ca > ********** > Subject:Majordomo results > Date:Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:00:39 -0700 (PDT) > From:Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG > To:malartre@aei.ca > > >>>> unsubscribe freebsd-stable malartre@aei.ca > Succeeded. > ********** > That sucks. It was a test to see how the unsubscribe work. But you were only unsubscribing yourself. > All people can unsubscribe me(or anyother) from any list. This is > playing with fire. I could unsubscribe everyone on this list. Nah, if that were the case, none of us would last long :-) I *strongly* recommend that you *not* attempt to unsubscribe someone else. It won't work, and a record of your attempt will be kept. That doesn't look very nice, and might cause someone to waste a lot of time trying to decide whether you're a crook or not :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 13:42:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05073 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:42:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05002; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-26.aei.ca [206.186.205.176]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13588; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3597FB72.EB269AC5@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:39:14 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: fewtch@serv.net, Daniel Guetzkow , "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: majordomo References: <3597F619.4C82C04A@aei.ca> <19980630063413.15924@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:16:25PM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > ********** > > Subject: > > Date:Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:57:32 -0400 > > From:Malartre > > To:majordomo@freebsd.org > > unsubscribe freebsd-stable malartre@aei.ca > > ********** > > Subject:Majordomo results > > Date:Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:00:39 -0700 (PDT) > > From:Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG > > To:malartre@aei.ca > > > > >>>> unsubscribe freebsd-stable malartre@aei.ca > > Succeeded. > > ********** > > That sucks. It was a test to see how the unsubscribe work. > > But you were only unsubscribing yourself. I know, but it work. I unsubscribe myself and majordomo dont ask me authentification. -- [Malartre] [malartre@aei.ca][ICQ#4224434][www.aei.ca/~malartre/][www.FreeBSD.ORG] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 14:52:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16801 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:52:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16696; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:52:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22924; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:51:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980629165158.34857@futuresouth.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:51:58 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Malartre Cc: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: majordomo References: <3597F619.4C82C04A@aei.ca> <19980630063413.15924@welearn.com.au> <3597FB72.EB269AC5@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <3597FB72.EB269AC5@aei.ca>; from Malartre on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:39:14PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (massive cc's trimmed) On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:39:14PM -0400, Malartre woke me up to tell me: > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:16:25PM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > > ********** > > > Subject: > > > Date:Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:57:32 -0400 > > > From:Malartre ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > unsubscribe freebsd-stable malartre@aei.ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > But you were only unsubscribing yourself. > I know, but it work. I unsubscribe myself and majordomo dont ask me > authentification. > It does the authentication based on your From header. If I tried, it wouldn't work. Go ahead, try and unsubscribe me. I ran into this a while back when the primary ID of a system I was subscribed on changed; I had to go to some pains to unsubscribe. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 16:52:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07031 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:52:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06848; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:51:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup518.serv.net [207.207.70.83]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25735; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3597FB72.EB269AC5@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Malartre Subject: Re: majordomo Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" , Daniel Guetzkow , Sue Blake Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You think that's bad, if you want me to try an experiment, I'll unsubscribe you myself, Malartre, using my normal Email address (fewtch@serv.net) (just as an experiment). No authentication is one thing, but letting someone else do it is another. Let me know if you want me to try it. On 29-Jun-98 Malartre wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: >> >> On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:16:25PM -0400, Malartre wrote: >> > ********** >> > Subject: >> > Date:Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:57:32 -0400 >> > From:Malartre >> > To:majordomo@freebsd.org >> > unsubscribe freebsd-stable malartre@aei.ca >> > ********** >> > Subject:Majordomo results >> > Date:Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:00:39 -0700 (PDT) >> > From:Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG >> > To:malartre@aei.ca >> > >> > >>>> unsubscribe freebsd-stable malartre@aei.ca >> > Succeeded. >> > ********** >> > That sucks. It was a test to see how the unsubscribe work. >> >> But you were only unsubscribing yourself. > I know, but it work. I unsubscribe myself and majordomo dont ask me > authentification. > > -- > [Malartre] > [malartre@aei.ca][ICQ#4224434][www.aei.ca/~malartre/][www.FreeBSD.ORG] ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 29-Jun-98 Time: 16:37:08 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 17:08:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09905 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:08:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (lee@host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09861 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01559; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:06:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980629200657.64570@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:06:57 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Jaime Bozza Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Charity spam (was: Re: A Little Cancer Patient need Your Attention) Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <359810B2.D480AC2E@cableinet.co.uk> <000601bda3b2$472a42a0$333d31cc@electron.nuc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <000601bda3b2$472a42a0$333d31cc@electron.nuc.net>; from Jaime Bozza on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 06:04:32PM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE (soon to be 3.0-CURRENT) X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 06:04:32PM -0500, Jaime Bozza wrote: [moved to -chat for our own good] > Not only does this have NOTHING to do with FreeBSD, it is a fraud, and if > you took some time to READ the message, you would realize that. The > website above is an excellent place to check up on things like this. This reminds me of Craig Shergold and his attempt to get into the Guinness Book of World Records (for "Most number of greeting cards received") a few years back. Messages went about everywhere saying that he was dying of inoperable brain cancer, and wanted that as his last wish, so send him cards--even after he broke the record AND had his cancer go into remission after being treated here in the States by the University of Virginia. (he was from England). -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 17:13:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10510 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10358; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:12:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA06028; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:11:43 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980630101140.33052@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:11:40 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: fewtch@serv.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: majordomo Reply-To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3597FB72.EB269AC5@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Gerchmez on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:51:31PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:51:31PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > You think that's bad, if you want me to try an experiment, I'll unsubscribe > you myself, Malartre, using my normal Email address (fewtch@serv.net) > (just as an experiment). No authentication is one thing, but letting > someone else do it is another. Let me know if you want me to try it. Given your recent activities, such an "experiment" could be easily misconstrued :-) I have already explained how unsubscribing works. The proper place for learning about using the mailing lists is freebsd-newbies where this conversation started. Somehow it got cross-posted to -chat, so I have set the reply-to to -newbies. Let's keep it there. There is seldom good reason for posting to two lists at once. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 17:48:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16474 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:48:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16369 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:48:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA28602 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:48:21 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA17905 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:37:55 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you all for a great discussion. I must bow out. Please CC trim me out of this one. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 20:46:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19359 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA19349 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:46:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24697; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:45:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:45:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806300345.VAA24697@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) From: Wes Peters To: grog@lemis.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <19980629143707.Q897@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980629143707.Q897@freebie.lemis.com> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA19355 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: % 1. Forced abortion and forced sterilization. For Christians, of % course, an abomination. In China, quite possibly law. Yes, I can % believe they do this. After seeing what has happened in the 30 % years between my two visits to India, I can understand the Chinese % view. There are absolute wrongs in this life, and the killing of innocents is at the top of the list. % 2. "Simply killed outright". Did she bring documentation of this as % well? How often? Where? Why? If they had the power to kill, % they had the power to anaesthetize and sterilize. Yes, she did. It apparently happened "several times" in her tenure, with women who were so hysterical the clinic staff could not deal with them. The clinic staff called the police, and the police killed these women. This was apparently done to discourage violent resistance. These killings were apparently documented in the medical records of these women kept by the clinic. % I think this shows the degree to which people can adapt to adverse % circumstances. I think your experiences (first hand, and thus *much* % more plausible) are very frightening, not so much for what happened to % you (nothing) as for the fact that it happened twice in "safe" cities, % and because of your lack of concern about it. I've been in lots of % places in the world, and nothing like that has ever happened to me. In actuality, the knife-point stickup could be a poster for the NRA: the man approached me as I was stopped at a traffic light, stuck a knife in the window and asked for my wallet. I told him it was in the "jockey box", carefully reached over and withdrew my 9mm pistol, which I stuffed into his face. He sat down in surprise, and I departed VERY quickly. I've often wondered if I managed to drive over his legs, but didn't think to check at the time. This happened in a neighborhood in Seattle that bordered between three differing racial groups, and was quite tense in those days. Being there at 1:00 am was probably not a great decision, but was the shortest route to work. I drove it every night for 3 years, and that was the only problem I ever encountered. That fits my definition of "chance encounter" quite well. The cinderblock incident I mentioned, however, was only one of many acts of premeditated violence that took place during that time, several of which I have physical scars from. Institutionalized violence frightens me far more than the random meanderings of morally deficient individuals, but I have grown up in a country where institutionalized violence is relatively rare, and generally condemned. % > I see the quality of life in the Salt Lake Valley diminishing % > rapidly, and have been looking for an upgrade path for several years % > now. While I try to be as open-minded as possible, I certainly % > won't be moving my family to some totalitarian dunghole with zero % > respect for human rights like China. % % Again, I think this is based on a lack of understanding, certainly % helped by the US media's reports. But you see, I don't pay much attention to the US media's reports. The only "news" program I watch on a regular (more than once a month) basis is "Meet the Press," and you'll never find them covering anything like this. I don't read newspapers, most of them are a waste of the paper they're printed on. I listen to the radio in the morning to hear about today's weather and which parts of the local highway system have been dismantled during my sleep, and I surf the web for news. I find the best world coverage typically comes from British sources, and look for reports from BBC world news. I often find their coverage of US politics quite amusing, too. % >>> Let's not forget where the criminals in China are - the government % >>> itself. % >> % >> I think that claim needs a little justification. % > % > See the above-mentioned report by the Chinese "welfare worker." % % Let's see a URL or something. I'm not denying that this happened. % After all, even in Australia (and quite possibly in the US) forced % sterilizations have been practised. The difference is that in % Australia they had only a very tenuous legal basis. I'll call the local affiliates and find out which network aired the segment. I doubt you'll find them on-line; they make money charging for their typewritten transcripts. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 20:55:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20619 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:55:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20613 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:55:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA05543; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:24:55 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980630132454.S1880@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:24:54 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) References: <19980629143707.Q897@freebie.lemis.com> <199806300345.VAA24697@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806300345.VAA24697@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:45:36PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 21:45:36 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: > >> 1. Forced abortion and forced sterilization. For Christians, of >> course, an abomination. In China, quite possibly law. Yes, I can >> believe they do this. After seeing what has happened in the 30 >> years between my two visits to India, I can understand the Chinese >> view. > > There are absolute wrongs in this life, and the killing of innocents > is at the top of the list. Well, we could discuss that, but let's take it for now. OK. Based on that logic, which is worse: killing a thousand innocents or a million? >> 2. "Simply killed outright". Did she bring documentation of this as >> well? How often? Where? Why? If they had the power to kill, >> they had the power to anaesthetize and sterilize. > > Yes, she did. It apparently happened "several times" in her tenure, with > women who were so hysterical the clinic staff could not deal with them. The > clinic staff called the police, and the police killed these women. This was > apparently done to discourage violent resistance. These killings were > apparently documented in the medical records of these women kept by the > clinic. Hmm. Where? > The cinderblock incident I mentioned, however, was only one of many acts of > premeditated violence that took place during that time, several of which I > have physical scars from. Institutionalized violence frightens me far more > than the random meanderings of morally deficient individuals, but I have grown > up in a country where institutionalized violence is relatively rare, and > generally condemned. Hmm. At this stage I can't see a big difference between police shooting hysterical women and the "accidental" fatal police shootings which happen more often than people would like to admit even in countries with good human rights records. >>>>> Let's not forget where the criminals in China are - the government >>>>> itself. >>>> >>>> I think that claim needs a little justification. >>> >>> See the above-mentioned report by the Chinese "welfare worker." >> >> Let's see a URL or something. I'm not denying that this happened. >> After all, even in Australia (and quite possibly in the US) forced >> sterilizations have been practised. The difference is that in >> Australia they had only a very tenuous legal basis. > > I'll call the local affiliates and find out which network aired the segment. > I doubt you'll find them on-line; they make money charging for their > typewritten transcripts. This doesn't exactly make them more convincing. Don't get me wrong, I realise that China has a long way to go. I'm not doubting anything that you've said, but my own experience has shown that things aren't always quite the way the reports make them seem. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 21:59:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29470 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from compound.east.sun.com ([208.141.230.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29440; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:59:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@compound.east.sun.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.east.sun.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id AAA06867; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:00:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Tony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:00:03 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: freebsd@atipa.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PPro vs PII References: <13720.5928.221514.597576@compound.east> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <13720.27283.95382.801320@compound.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'll move this to chat. Quoth Atipa on Mon, 29 June: : : You can use up to 8 Xeons simultaneously. You can have a box off-the-shelf with 64 USparc too. Heck, look at ASCI Red -- it proves by demonstration that you can buy a box to use up to 9152 PPros simultaneously -- if you don't mind some funky address space structure:) : > ...Samsung... : : That would be nice. I am worried about the future of Alphas at this : point... No fear! Merced got delayed *again*, (and probably will a couple more times before I retire to Costa Rica) and Alpha is the *only* commodity 64-bit platform (outside the embedded world) -- since I can't count USparc as commodity, even if it is at commodity pricing levels, as long as it is single-source. Merced might not dent the market appreciably until 2003! By which time Alpha and USparc will have dominated the large database world very nicely. If Compaq pushes Alpha in the Fortune 1000 server space like they say they will, and Samsung is producing Alphas at competetive-market pricing, and every EDA engineer on the planet would kill his boss in order to swap his Klamath/NT desktop box for an Alpha/Linux box (and a few disgruntled, newly promoted ones may start doing so in fact RSN -- if only metaphorically), Alpha is sitting prettier than any other ISA going. Remember -- x86 can only lose share at this point, not gain. Heck, every time SGI makes another management blunder, and that's about every 60 seconds lately, a few hundred more Alphas are, in effect, sold. Intel doesn't even have to lose share for Alpha to grow (although they will) -- there is a lot of consolidation going on in the Workstation (and by implication, the ISA) space. HP really should start feeling it's age before long. If they didn't have such unrealistic market cap, hung over from the mainframe days, they would have been bought by Dell or some such nouveau riche chop shop long ago. I'd feel pretty good buying Alpha hardware right about now if only there was an upgrade roadmap. (That's always been the illusory carrot motivating hobbyist hardware choices -- historically favoring intel -- hasn't it? Modular upgrades, carrying over hardware from generation to generation.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 22:48:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05761 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:48:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05666 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:47:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24892; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:47:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:47:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806300547.XAA24892@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) From: Wes Peters To: grog@lemis.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <19980630132454.S1880@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980630132454.S1880@freebie.lemis.com> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id WAA05757 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: % On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 21:45:36 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: % > My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: % > % >> 1. Forced abortion and forced sterilization. For Christians, of % >> course, an abomination. In China, quite possibly law. Yes, I can % >> believe they do this. After seeing what has happened in the 30 % >> years between my two visits to India, I can understand the Chinese % >> view. % > % > There are absolute wrongs in this life, and the killing of innocents % > is at the top of the list. % % Well, we could discuss that, but let's take it for now. OK. Based on % that logic, which is worse: killing a thousand innocents or a million? Neither. It's a binary function, like being pregnant. % >> 2. "Simply killed outright". Did she bring documentation of this as % >> well? How often? Where? Why? If they had the power to kill, % >> they had the power to anaesthetize and sterilize. % > % > Yes, she did. It apparently happened "several times" in her tenure, with % > women who were so hysterical the clinic staff could not deal with them. % The % > clinic staff called the police, and the police killed these women. This % was % > apparently done to discourage violent resistance. These killings were % > apparently documented in the medical records of these women kept by the % > clinic. % % Hmm. Where? You didn't read my original posting. She managed to bring several years of records from the clinic with her. This was all recorded in the official records of the clinic, even the deaths of two of the women she alleged were killed by police. % > The cinderblock incident I mentioned, however, was only one of many acts % of % > premeditated violence that took place during that time, several of which I % > have physical scars from. Institutionalized violence frightens me far % more % > than the random meanderings of morally deficient individuals, but I have % grown % > up in a country where institutionalized violence is relatively rare, and % > generally condemned. % % Hmm. At this stage I can't see a big difference between police % shooting hysterical women and the "accidental" fatal police shootings % which happen more often than people would like to admit even in % countries with good human rights records. Yeah, we've had a rash of those around here this year. One teenage girl was shot to death as her compatriots in car theft jumped over a fence. She got stuck on the fence and jumped back down on the side where the police were chasing her, with a "weapon" in her hand. The "weapon" turned out to be a hair brush, for which she died. That pretty much puts the Salt Lake County sheriff's department on firm footing along with the state police in China, as far as I'm concerned. One of the big differences is that here we can, and WILL, get the sonofabitch thrown out of office. It's nice to have a publicly sanctioned revolution every 4 or 6 years. A major difference in the Chinese case was the women who were shot at the clinic were confined in a cage in the clinic at the time; they certainly weren't threatening the police officials in any way locked in a cage. % >>>>> Let's not forget where the criminals in China are - the government % >>>>> itself. % >>>> % >>>> I think that claim needs a little justification. % >>> % >>> See the above-mentioned report by the Chinese "welfare worker." % >> % >> Let's see a URL or something. I'm not denying that this happened. % >> After all, even in Australia (and quite possibly in the US) forced % >> sterilizations have been practised. The difference is that in % >> Australia they had only a very tenuous legal basis. % > % > I'll call the local affiliates and find out which network aired the % segment. % > I doubt you'll find them on-line; they make money charging for their % > typewritten transcripts. % % This doesn't exactly make them more convincing. % % Don't get me wrong, I realise that China has a long way to go. I'm % not doubting anything that you've said, but my own experience has % shown that things aren't always quite the way the reports make them % seem. % % Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 23:08:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08150 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:08:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08127 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:07:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA05773; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:37:46 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980630153746.V1880@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:37:46 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) References: <19980630132454.S1880@freebie.lemis.com> <199806300547.XAA24892@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806300547.XAA24892@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:47:31PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 23:47:31 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: > >> On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 21:45:36 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >>> My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: >>> >>>> 1. Forced abortion and forced sterilization. For Christians, of >>>> course, an abomination. In China, quite possibly law. Yes, I can >>>> believe they do this. After seeing what has happened in the 30 >>>> years between my two visits to India, I can understand the Chinese >>>> view. >>> >>> There are absolute wrongs in this life, and the killing of innocents >>> is at the top of the list. >> >> Well, we could discuss that, but let's take it for now. OK. Based on >> that logic, which is worse: killing a thousand innocents or a million? > > Neither. It's a binary function, like being pregnant. I beg to differ. I think most people would. >>>> 2. "Simply killed outright". Did she bring documentation of this as >>>> well? How often? Where? Why? If they had the power to kill, >>>> they had the power to anaesthetize and sterilize. >>> >>> Yes, she did. It apparently happened "several times" in her tenure, with >>> women who were so hysterical the clinic staff could not deal with them. % > The >>> clinic staff called the police, and the police killed these women. This % > was >>> apparently done to discourage violent resistance. These killings were >>> apparently documented in the medical records of these women kept by the >>> clinic. >> >> Hmm. Where? > > You didn't read my original posting. She managed to bring several years of > records from the clinic with her. This was all recorded in the official > records of the clinic, even the deaths of two of the women she alleged were > killed by police. Sure I read your message, though you didn't use the word "two" before. My question was in a geographical sense. Where did all this happen? In the USA you'd immediately see a difference between Massachusetts, South Carolina, Miami, Salt Lake City or Los Angeles. It's the same in China. >> Hmm. At this stage I can't see a big difference between police >> shooting hysterical women and the "accidental" fatal police shootings >> which happen more often than people would like to admit even in >> countries with good human rights records. > > Yeah, we've had a rash of those around here this year. One teenage girl was > shot to death as her compatriots in car theft jumped over a fence. She got > stuck on the fence and jumped back down on the side where the police were > chasing her, with a "weapon" in her hand. The "weapon" turned out to be a > hair brush, for which she died. That pretty much puts the Salt Lake County > sheriff's department on firm footing along with the state police in China, as > far as I'm concerned. One of the big differences is that here we can, and > WILL, get the sonofabitch thrown out of office. It's nice to have a publicly > sanctioned revolution every 4 or 6 years. > > A major difference in the Chinese case was the women who were shot at the > clinic were confined in a cage in the clinic at the time; they certainly > weren't threatening the police officials in any way locked in a cage. Details. It's a binary function: in each case a police official overstepped his responsibilities. One of these days they'll get round to calling them to justice, even in China. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 02:13:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09046 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from unix.tfs.net (as1-p93.tfs.net [139.146.210.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA08898; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:12:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jbryant@unix.tfs.net) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id EAA28972; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:11:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199806300911.EAA28972@unix.tfs.net> Subject: Re: A Little Cancer Patient need Your Attention In-Reply-To: <199806300623.XAA27246@usr01.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jun 30, 98 06:23:08 am" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:11:45 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: jbryant@unix.tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Republican: The best kind!!! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sat Jun 20 11:57:05 CDT 1998 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply: > Meanwhile, Geron, Inc. has identified the genes responsible for human > telemerase encoding. Can you say "goodbye, aging"? sounds like one hell of a weapon. can you say premature aging, how about eugenics? i bet some people in yugoslavia would love to have it, maybe even alabama, or south carolina... > We may, in fact, be the last generation to die. or the first of many. > "Oh brave new world, that has such things in'it" > -- Aldous Huxley note the cc to -chat. why not move it to the To: line.. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 04:00:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25297 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-2-31.stratos.net [207.86.132.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA25198; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:00:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id EAA03308; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980630040842.A714@stratos.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:08:42 -0400 To: Greg Lehey , "Jason C. Wells" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: Frank Pawlak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:16:24AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:16:24AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > China's government is repressive, shuns western-style human rights, > and ended the Tiananmen square problem in a bloody manner. Before > condemning them completely, look at how democracy and human rates > score in other countries: > > 1. In many US cities, the crime rate is so high that you really > *wouldn't* go walking alone at night. You can walk at night in > any part of Beijing, despite the higher differences in income and > living standards. The Chinese might see this as a result of > overly lax treatment of criminals, or, as the Americans call it, > "human rights". There are many countries with low crime rates, including Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and (yes) China. There is no questions that crime rates are lower in these countries than in the United States. And there is not questions that low crime rates are _better_ than higher crime rates. But avoidance of crime is only one aspect of life. Or, to put it more broadly, _security_ is only one aspect of living. Yeah, you want safety more than anything, including freedom, when you are being chased by a lion. And if conditions are right, you may overcome your fear and try to eat that lion if you are starving. But usally, you are not being chased by a lion, and for most people, crime is not a common occurrance (there are obviosly exceptions in some parts of our cities controlled by gangs and drug lords). But when food, shelter, and safety are obtained, most people want _more_ out of life, because to most of us life means more than subsistance. Let's face it. We will all die one day. I know my chances of being the victim of a violent crime are greater here in the U.S. than (say) Saudi Arabia, but so what? Those governments control crime by use of terror. What the hell difference does it make if I get beaten by a criminal who wants my money or beaten by my government because I criticized it? Those leaders lead by brute force and arrogance. Frankly, I think life here in crime-ridden USA is worth the gamble. > > 2. India is in complete political and economic chaos, the result of > 50 years of "democracy" in a country which can't handle it. The > average tenure of an Indian government is less than 12 months. In > view of the level-headed government they're currently getting, > let's hope that this remains true. Some one may correct me, but if I remember from my comparative politics courses in college, Italy suffers some similar problems as well. Some countries, such as Italy (and some other countries) appear "chaotic" (to us) because of the large number of political parties and the tenuous coalitions that must be formed and oftern are broken in short order. Yet we Americans complain about our limited 2-party system. I wouldn't mind a beer-drinker's party here in the Good ol' USA :) (Of course, if trends continue, there may be a momentum for a Smoker's Party) I don't think it would be wise for me to judge what countries can handle democracy or not. I'll just say that (*in general*) I feel less threatoned by democratic countries than dictatorial ones. > > 3. Russia is in turmoil. The government is no longer in control, and > crime is rife. > > On the whole, if I had the choice of living only in one of the four > locations above, I'd choose Beijing. > > The Chinese government consists of people elected by a small body for > their merits, not their ability to campaign. Generally, they're no ^^^^^^ Interesting comment. However, "elected" is a questionable word. I think internal politics has had much to do with problems and instability in China. Wasn't Deng Xiao Ping a victim of the "Cultural Revolution"? Mao was losing his grip, so why not capitalize on his popular appeal with the people, and start a revolution for the "pure" at heart? I question what "merit" was involved in that episode. Truthfully, succession of power in China is an uncertain thing. No one knows how it will happen and to what affect. Democracies allow for stable transission of power, in a military and process sense. There is an orderly transision of power. There was no orderly transission of power between Sun Yat Sen and Chiang Kai-Shek, or Chiang Kai-Shek and Mao Tze Tung, or Mao and Deng Xiao Ping. The country was lucky that the transition to Jiang Zemin(?) was much more peaceful, but there is *no* guarentee that there won't be a radical shift in power at some point. Is the Social Revolution an example of a movement based on "merit?" or more by right and pure political thought? How many died in that era? How many died in the wars betweem Jiang Kai-Shek and the Red Army, or at the hands of the war lords that devastated the country side? Too bad that China is being the target of this conversation, because it is an amazing country despite all the bad things they have suffered, but despite the evils of slavery and the Indian Wars in this country, nobody has suffered like the Chinese (The Russians come close). If it wasn't the Japanese in WWII or natural disasters, it was mostly by the hands of their own government. Your message was provovative, which is fine. But I disagree with the implication. Saying that "allowing" high crime rates with policies that reasonable people disagree with (gun control, for example) is just as awful as mowing down your political opposition with tanks is like saying that not raising the driving age to 25 is tantamount to murder because of all the drunken, inexperienced young people who die in auto crashes every year because government won't disallow them to drive. To me, the difference is too fundamental. Phew! Sorry about this obscene length. I promise, no more like this! > fools. China may be lagging behind the West in many areas, but > they're slowly and steadily improving, and they're doing it without > significant incidences of the problems other countries face. > Considering the enormous problems facing them, I think they're doing > as good a job as anybody could expect. > > Greg > -- -- drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send) "Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe- struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 10:16:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24631 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24622 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02071 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806301716.KAA02071@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Chat away 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:16:20 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://vision.ucsd.edu/~atai/softwarewar.gif To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 10:32:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27869 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27791 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from (ragnet.demon.co.uk) [158.152.46.40] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yr4Fz-0005rK-00; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:31:52 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yqtcQ-0002FQ-00; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:10:18 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <13720.27283.95382.801320@compound.east> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:10:18 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: Tony Kimball Subject: Re: PPro vs PII Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd@atipa.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30-Jun-98 Tony Kimball wrote: > I'll move this to chat. > > Quoth Atipa on Mon, 29 June: >: [snip lots of alpha stuff] > > I'd feel pretty good buying Alpha hardware right about now if only > there was an upgrade roadmap. (That's always been the illusory carrot > motivating hobbyist hardware choices -- historically favoring intel -- > hasn't it? Modular upgrades, carrying over hardware from generation > to generation.) > But it doesn't really hold true now for us hobbyist. Things change so fast at the motherboard level that unless you upgrade every 6months you need to buy MB, CPU and RAM new each time. I've just spent about 3weeks trying to work out whether to get a PII, a super-7 or a "good" TX to upgrade from my 486. In the end I went for a TX board and spent the money I saved on a few toys (like a CDROM/sound card etc.). There was no way that a PII or socket 7 board would survive a cpu upgrade in say 18months time, which is when I feel I will want to upgrade again. Duncan Very happy with an upgrade resulting in about 8times performance improvement. Would be less inpressed with a PII-233 to PII-333 upgrade :-) --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 13:46:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01773 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:46:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cygnus.rush.net (root@cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01744 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17378; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:20:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:20:51 -0500 (EST) From: P Lynch To: Matthew Hunt cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD T-Shirts? In-Reply-To: <19980628112138.A19705@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org they had them at USENIX, however, the FreeBSD project guys were selfish :p (actually they didn;t have many, and probably needed to get more from Japan or eherever they were made) ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 11:08:02PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Got a pointer for a cool FreeBSD pointer?? > > And I'm still looking for a nice one-inch-square Daemon sticker > for my new case... > > -- > Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. > http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 13:54:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03009 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net ([207.86.135.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02954 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:53:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id QAA04017; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:34:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980630163405.B714@stratos.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:34:05 -0400 To: Eivind Eklund , Wes Peters , fpawlak@execpc.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <19980627034631.A944@stratos.net> <199806270857.CAA17321@softweyr.com> <19980627182937.40983@follo.net> <19980627211308.B392@stratos.net> <19980628172900.08399@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980628172900.08399@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:29:00PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:29:00PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:13:08PM -0400, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > > This is one common-sense statement that I happen to agree with > > gun control advocates on. Guns certainly do make it /easier/ to kill > > people than knives do. (And bombs make it even easier than guns.) > > But sorry, Eivind, Wes is right about personal responsibility. > > A society should be formed to give maximum benefit to the individuals > in that society. Saying "That criminal was irresponsible" when a > criminal got a gun and shot your daugther won't bring you anywhere. > The interesting question is what is done right or wrong on the level > of a society to bring about or deter this behaviour. No, but when you don't have a consistent pattern of punishment (read consequences) for such actions, it makes such people all the more bold about there actions. If this happens unchecked, there will be the risk of increase in crime as arrogance runs out of control. > > > While I agree with the necessity for common-sense regulation > > of firearms consistent with traditional understanding of the Second > > Amendment, (in the U.S., at least) the old NRA adage of "Guns don't > > kill people, people kill people" is a truth many don't want to > > accept, even if they pay lip service to it. > > I'm not certain how the traditional understanding of the second > amandement is. I've seen so many of them :-) Can you enlightenment as > to which you consider traditional? Very briefly (to conserve space): the right to bear arms at all, as opposed to the government simply saying 'You may not own or use guns in any way, any where.' Or less restrictive, but clearly arbitrary laws meant only to reduce the number of legal gun-ownership cases. I'm not talking about concealed weapons laws, or laws preventing automatic weapons. Nevertheless, the point (which I ackowledged) that it is unclear what laws are consistant and what are not with the second amendment, because of the poorly worded clauses in that amendment. In any case, the general trend these days is to make laws more restrictive than they used to be. > > > People kill because they are bad, not because of people like > > Charlton Heston talking about gun rights all of the time. I am not > > a member of the NRA, and don't even own a firearm. (The only time I > > ever shot off one was a time I went skeet shooting -- hit the first > > clay pigeon and then went 0 for 29!) But I am sick and tired of them > > being blamed for crimes committed by murderers who lack decency and > > respect for human life. > > This is just plain false. I'm sorry - guns kill people in a _large_ > set of accidents. You and your family are more likely to be hurt by a ^^^^^^^^^^ What exactly in the above paragraph is false? Or are you just saying the general attitude behind those remarks is wrong? I mentioned nothing about accidents. Agreed, people do die with gun accidents. More people die in car accidents. Should we consider making a driver's license just as restrictive as the way some people would make gun-owner licenses? > gun you buy than the sum of other people. > > However, I'm not generally blaming guns in themselves - I'm stating > that the availability of guns made for killing people make it more > likely that a criminal will use a gun for killing people. This is > statistically certain, and placing blame won't bring us anywhere. The idea is that blaming guns deflects blame where it belongs: the people who use them. When this happens in a society over a sustained period of time, the ability to avoid personal responsability increases the likelihood criminals will commit crimes, because they know there is a decreased chance they will have to face the music. This is at least as true as "the availability of guns increases the chances that they will be used." > > > It is only "murder" if you believe it is immoral to take the life > > of another human being if said human being cold-bloodedly murdered someone > > else. It /is/ a view-point held by many in this country, though not the > > majority. > > Remember, Eivind, this argument can be turned on its > > head if I ask you about your government's (Norway -- unless 'yes.no' really > > is a made-up domain name) and society's attidude towards abortion, > > which is apparently more permissive there (very few legal restrictions) than > > here in the United States... > > Yes, I am from Norway. > > This is depend very much on where you introduce humans and human > worth. IMO, human worth is connected to relationships, both to other > humans and to self. If you want to bring in 'potential' at an early > pre-born stage, you're on a slippery slope - what about the potential > of the kid you could have with the lady over on the right? We're Relationships are important, but if ol' Joe is a drunk on the streets, with no friends, no home, and no family, he is still worth something, whether people (including himself) realizes it or not. Technically, I was not referring to "potential life" because there is nothing "potential" about an unborn child -- the fetus is alive. If you mean potential in the sense of having advanced emotions, intellect, and communications skills, an unborn child certainly hasn't yet gained those traits. I'm not sure though that those are the right standards to judge "human" by. > wasting potential every day, but IMO that doesn't mean we should > attempt to have kids with everybody. > > However, you're still evading the interesting question: What does > having a society murdering citizens to satisfy thirst for revenge (ie, > to satify the bloodthirst of many members of the society) do to that > society? It at least clearly sends the signal that use of murder for Some argue justice. Whether justice = revenge ultimately rests on people's personal opinion. Others say deterrent. Statistics show that in this country, the states with death penalties have not deterred murder, bolstering your argument. Yet it does act as a detterrent in other nations, like Saudi Arabia, because people know (unlike here) that the death penalty will most likely occur and will happen swiftly. Here in Ohio, we have been a death penalty state since 1976. Yet there hasn't been an *actual* execution since 1964. Currently, there is a murderer dubbed "The Volunteer", because he actually wants to be executed. But the mandatory appeals process would make him wait years before he would actually be killed. Also, the state has tried to prove that he is not mentally competant enough to be able to make that judgment. So much for blood thirsty Ohio :) I think it is safe to say that the overwhelming majority of first degree murderers are not executed. That inconsistency has largely removed the cause and effect relationship between the two. I believe a consistent death penalty probably would deter first degree pre- meditated murderers, but would probably do little to deter "crimes of passion" (which generally don't carry the punishment, anyway.) It may surprise you to find that I have never been super gung-ho about the death penalty, and have been more apt to favor a deliberate appeals process rather than the "swift justice" in the aforementioned S.A. (I have a grandmother who lived there. No way I would choose to!) But I must admit I won't lose too much sleep over Timmy McVeigh when his day comes, either. > revenge is OK in some situations, and AFAIK this increase the amount > of violence in the society. This is not the case for allowing > abortion. Allowing abortion may change when non-borns or babies are > considered to get human worth, but this does not seem to add the > problem of babies being killed. I'm not entirely satisfied that there has been a cause-effect relationship demonstrated between death penalty and a greater liklihood to kill, either. Some of these are intangibles, and cannot be as easily quantified (or they can, but correlations do not necessary demonstrate cause-effect). Nevertheless, when I see video games where a fighter turns his opponent into an infant before frying it with a fireball, or those stories about the Amy Grossbergs who kill their baby just after it is born (where, in some states, it would have been entirely legal to get an abortion just moments before), it makes me think that abortion does erode respect for human life. > > Eivind. > -- drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send) "Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe- struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 13:54:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:54:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net ([207.86.135.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03010; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA03979; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980630155352.A3937@stratos.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:53:52 -0400 To: Jon Hamilton , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <199806290005.RAA00896@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jon Hamilton on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 07:56:15PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 07:56:15PM -0500, Jon Hamilton wrote: > > > One angle not (apparently) being considered is that if the local population > is armed and unwilling to capitulate, the government would either have > to go find something else to do, or start killing people outright, which > certainly carries more of a political pricetag than, say, waltzing into > a neighborhood and arresting dozens of unarmed people. This "ups the > ante", so to speak, to keep the government (or any aggressor) at least > a little honest. > -- > Jon Hamilton > hamilton@pobox.com A variation of the above theme... Such arguments about defense against government don't work when the whole force of the government is bearing down on you. But... When it's just one crazed police officer, or FBI agent, or whatever. In otherwords, in a world where the government is more or less the way it is today, with just a few bad apples... An other example is if you are in a war-torn country that's subject to roving armies who are not riding into town in tanks. If four or five military men armed with standard issue fire arms decide they want to rape, pillage, and plunder, an armed civilian population *can* defend against that. -- drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send) "Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe- struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 14:13:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05528 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cygnus.rush.net (root@cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05410 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13618; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:46:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:46:41 -0500 (EST) From: P Lynch To: John Birrell cc: Greg Lehey , wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) In-Reply-To: <199806290530.PAA22552@cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org you mean moving pieces of granite? (my friend hit a volvo once, totalled his buick, the volvo was barely scratched) ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, John Birrell wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 15:20:07 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > >> We're getting out of focus here, and maybe we ned to wrap up this > > >> particular subthread. > > > > > > Must be time to talk about Volvo drivers then. 8-) > > > > You've got me there. > > It's one emotive subject that hasn't been covered by any of the recent > sub-threads. And since my little reference to "gun" was picked up > so well, I just thought I'd throw another morsel to the yadda-yaddas. 8-) > > [ Sorry, Volvo drivers are my pet hate today after an old lady tried > to share a lane where there wasn't room. ] > > -- > John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ > CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 14:19:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06801 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:19:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cygnus.rush.net (root@cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06761 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:19:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07028; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:53:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:53:56 -0500 (EST) From: P Lynch To: Duncan Barclay cc: Tony Kimball , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd@atipa.com Subject: Re: PPro vs PII In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org heh I'm still very happy with my pentium 100, who needs new PC hardware when the older stuff runs freebsd very well (and I don;t do windows) ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Duncan Barclay wrote: > > On 30-Jun-98 Tony Kimball wrote: > > I'll move this to chat. > > > > Quoth Atipa on Mon, 29 June: > >: > > [snip lots of alpha stuff] > > > > > I'd feel pretty good buying Alpha hardware right about now if only > > there was an upgrade roadmap. (That's always been the illusory carrot > > motivating hobbyist hardware choices -- historically favoring intel -- > > hasn't it? Modular upgrades, carrying over hardware from generation > > to generation.) > > > > But it doesn't really hold true now for us hobbyist. Things change > so fast at the motherboard level that unless you upgrade every 6months > you need to buy MB, CPU and RAM new each time. I've just spent > about 3weeks trying to work out whether to get a PII, a super-7 or > a "good" TX to upgrade from my 486. In the end I went for a TX board and > spent the money I saved on a few toys (like a CDROM/sound card etc.). There > was no way that a PII or socket 7 board would survive a cpu upgrade in > say 18months time, which is when I feel I will want to > upgrade again. > > Duncan > Very happy with an upgrade resulting in about 8times performance improvement. > Would be less inpressed with a PII-233 to PII-333 upgrade :-) > > --- > ________________________________________________________________________ > Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, > dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. > ________________________________________________________________________ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 15:48:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21945 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:48:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21830 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:47:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05589; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:47:57 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA08553; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:47:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980701004750.24786@follo.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:47:50 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: drifter@stratos.net, Wes Peters , fpawlak@execpc.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <19980627034631.A944@stratos.net> <199806270857.CAA17321@softweyr.com> <19980627182937.40983@follo.net> <19980627211308.B392@stratos.net> <19980628172900.08399@follo.net> <19980630163405.B714@stratos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980630163405.B714@stratos.net>; from drifter@stratos.net on Tue, Jun 30, 1998 at 04:34:05PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 30, 1998 at 04:34:05PM -0400, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > > This is just plain false. I'm sorry - guns kill people in a _large_ > > set of accidents. You and your family are more likely to be hurt by a > ^^^^^^^^^^ > What exactly in the above paragraph is false? Or are you just > saying the general attitude behind those remarks is wrong? I believe I had included a paragraph referring to "Guns don't kill people - people kill people" or somesuch. If I hadn't, I made a mistake in quoting. That was what the comment was intended to apply to. > I mentioned nothing about accidents. Agreed, people do die with gun > accidents. More people die in car accidents. Should we consider > making a driver's license just as restrictive as the way some people > would make gun-owner licenses? Since you're referring to "some people", I have a large difficulty answering that question. I'm probably in favour of much more control of drivers licenses than you are - I'm not certain the amount of education/tests here (in Norway) is enough, and it is presently at a level where getting a drivers license cost $1500-$2500 in required tution etc. I believe it reasonable to have a similarly large amount of training before somebody is allowed to buy a weapon, and that requiring demonstration of special needs to let somebody buy a weapon specially intended for killing humans. > > However, I'm not generally blaming guns in themselves - I'm stating > > that the availability of guns made for killing people make it more > > likely that a criminal will use a gun for killing people. This is > > statistically certain, and placing blame won't bring us anywhere. > > The idea is that blaming guns deflects blame where it belongs: > the people who use them. It is not self-evident that this idea is correct. I can't say I recognize the attitude at all, actually - I recognize certain aspects of this WRT those always blaming the childhood etc, but I can't say I recognize the re-targetting of blame WRT weapons. > When this happens in a society over a sustained period of time, the > ability to avoid personal responsability increases the likelihood > criminals will commit crimes, because they know there is a decreased > chance they will have to face the music. This is at least as true > as "the availability of guns increases the chances that they will be > used." Oh? Then give me some statistics to underpin it. The truth of "the availability of guns increases the chances that they will be used" I have from personal experience, involving at least two cases of people not being shot due to the inavailability of usable guns. > > This is depend very much on where you introduce humans and human > > worth. IMO, human worth is connected to relationships, both to other > > humans and to self. If you want to bring in 'potential' at an early > > pre-born stage, you're on a slippery slope - what about the potential > > of the kid you could have with the lady over on the right? We're > > Relationships are important, but if ol' Joe is a drunk on the > streets, with no friends, no home, and no family, he is still worth > something, whether people (including himself) realizes it or not. > Technically, I was not referring to "potential life" because there > is nothing "potential" about an unborn child -- the fetus is > alive. And the egg is alive. Whether the sperm is avlive may be somewhat debatable. Saying "it is alive" doesn't bring you anywhere, and if you seriously thought it did, you're either ignoring or missing elementary molecular biology. > If you mean potential in the sense of having advanced emotions, > intellect, and communications skills, an unborn child certainly hasn't yet > gained those traits. I'm not sure though that those are the right > standards to judge "human" by. I meant the potential for what the person can be in life, how he/she can touch the lives of others. And if those are not the right standards: What are? > > However, you're still evading the interesting question: What does > > having a society murdering citizens to satisfy thirst for revenge (ie, > > to satify the bloodthirst of many members of the society) do to that > > society? It at least clearly sends the signal that use of murder for > > Some argue justice. Whether justice = revenge ultimately rests > on people's personal opinion. > [...] > But I must admit I won't lose too much sleep over Timmy McVeigh when > his day comes, either. Sorry, this is just rationalizing over why death penalty may be instituted and how it is practiced :-) It is instituted because of people generally being irrational, deciding before they get most of the facts, not understanding scientific method, and being bloodthirsty ("we want justice") - we've covered all of that :-) You're still evading the interesting issue: What does having it do to the society? > > revenge is OK in some situations, and AFAIK this increase the amount > > of violence in the society. This is not the case for allowing > > abortion. Allowing abortion may change when non-borns or babies are > > considered to get human worth, but this does not seem to add the > > problem of babies being killed. > > I'm not entirely satisfied that there has been a cause-effect > relationship demonstrated between death penalty and a greater liklihood > to kill, either. Some of these are intangibles, and cannot be as easily > quantified (or they can, but correlations do not necessary demonstrate > cause-effect). They're at least both indicative of a society where violence and killing is accepted in large parts of the population. I believe the correlation is fairly strong also on the after-effects of introducing death penalty, but I haven't done anylyses on the numbers myself, so I can't really vouch for that. > Nevertheless, when I see video games where a fighter turns > his opponent into an infant before frying it with a fireball, or You should totally disregard violence in video games. It is not indicative of anything. Trust me; I was a games developer for a number of years. > those stories about the Amy Grossbergs who kill their baby just > after it is born (where, in some states, it would have been entirely > legal to get an abortion just moments before), it makes me think > that abortion does erode respect for human life. Being able to get abortions up to right before the birth is IMO gross. I can see that destroying respect for human life, yes. We have a "no-older-than-9-weeks" law (or was that 6 weeks? I don't remember - never had to have an abortion (or have a girlfriend have one, which would be as close as I could get)). This means that the fetus is emotionally clearly different from a baby. Also, IIRC, the person getting the abortion have to talk it trough with a doctor first (ahe don't have to get a permit, but she has to talk it through). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 17:02:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05622 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cia.net.au (query.cia.net.au [203.17.36.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05600 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:02:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alastair@cia.com.au) Received: from clarence.progmatics.com.au ([203.28.49.193]) by cia.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA03742 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:00:08 +1000 Received: from alastair (192.168.0.67) by clarence.progmatics.com.au (Worldmail 1.3.167) for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; 1 Jul 1998 10:02:09 +1000 Message-ID: <3596E26700000077@clarence.progmatics.com.au> (added by clarence.progmatics.com.au) X-Sender: alastair@mail.cia.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:02:07 +1000 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Alastair Rankine Subject: Linux Survey at O'Reilly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD fans may wish to notify O'Reilly of their existance by filling out this Linux survey. An animal book about FreeBSD would surely lift the profile of the OS in a credible way. http://linux.oreilly.com/linux_survey.html Be warned they ask for lots of identity information (name, address, etc). -- [ Alastair Rankine ] [ mailto:alastair@cia.com.au ] [ http://www.cia.com.au/alastair ] [ pgp5 64E4 B67C D2B7 EEC4 63C9 AA74 F63A 9AD9 E44B 21C7 ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 17:29:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10934; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807010028.RAA10934@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) In-Reply-To: from P Lynch at "Jun 30, 98 05:46:41 pm" To: lynch@rush.net (P Lynch) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org P Lynch wrote: > you mean moving pieces of granite? > (my friend hit a volvo once, totalled his buick, the volvo was barely > scratched) ;) you gotta love 'em. i got a '79 with a weber 36 carb, 4 speed, aint the fastest thing but does okay. i can drive and nobody tries to cut me off. with a '79 volvo, they figure i would be grateful to get the insurance money....not that i carry anything but liability on the thing ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 17:31:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11697 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11618; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA28555; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:42:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199807010042.KAA28555@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) In-Reply-To: <199807010028.RAA10934@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jun 30, 98 05:28:36 pm" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:42:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: lynch@rush.net, jb@cimlogic.com.au, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > ;) you gotta love 'em. i got a '79 with a weber 36 carb, > 4 speed, aint the fastest thing but does okay. i can drive > and nobody tries to cut me off. with a '79 volvo, they figure > i would be grateful to get the insurance money....not that > i carry anything but liability on the thing ;) I just knew there had to be someone with one. Do you wear a hat too? 8-) 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 17:43:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13865 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:43:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13843; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:43:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807010043.RAA13843@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) In-Reply-To: <199807010042.KAA28555@cimlogic.com.au> from John Birrell at "Jul 1, 98 10:42:24 am" To: jb@cimlogic.com.au (John Birrell) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, lynch@rush.net, jb@cimlogic.com.au, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Birrell wrote: > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > ;) you gotta love 'em. i got a '79 with a weber 36 carb, > > 4 speed, aint the fastest thing but does okay. i can drive > > and nobody tries to cut me off. with a '79 volvo, they figure > > i would be grateful to get the insurance money....not that > > i carry anything but liability on the thing ;) > > I just knew there had to be someone with one. Do you wear a hat too? 8-) 8-) hmm....i got a baseball cap that says Java here and one from cisco...and a crown racing, and cylink encryptors. does that count? jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 17:51:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15439 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:51:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15269; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA28610; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:01:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199807010101.LAA28610@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) In-Reply-To: <199807010043.RAA13843@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jun 30, 98 05:43:02 pm" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:01:22 +1000 (EST) Cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, lynch@rush.net, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > hmm....i got a baseball cap that says Java here > and one from cisco...and a crown racing, and > cylink encryptors. > > does that count? No way. It needs to be one of those hats that you can't tell if it's on backwards. Baseball caps with cool logos don't count at all. FWIW, Volvo drivers have a very bad reputation here. Volvo is trying to correct that image via motor racing, but people keep getting reminded by the behaviour of Volvo drivers on the road. "Actions speak louder than words". 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 17:58:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16758 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:58:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16602; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA09699; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:27:21 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980701102721.A9694@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:27:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Birrell , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: lynch@rush.net, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) References: <199807010043.RAA13843@hub.freebsd.org> <199807010101.LAA28610@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807010101.LAA28610@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 11:01:22AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 1 July 1998 at 11:01:22 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >> hmm....i got a baseball cap that says Java here >> and one from cisco...and a crown racing, and >> cylink encryptors. >> >> does that count? > > No way. It needs to be one of those hats that you can't tell if it's > on backwards. Baseball caps with cool logos don't count at all. > > FWIW, Volvo drivers have a very bad reputation here. Volvo is trying > to correct that image via motor racing, but people keep getting reminded > by the behaviour of Volvo drivers on the road. "Actions speak louder > than words". 8-) I met Jonathan at USENIX. He really doesn't fit the stereotype. And yes, I'll get those pictures on the web as soon as I get past this *(&^&^& Microslop I'm forced to use. Anybody with software or even protocol specs for a Casio QV-5000 please raise their hands. It's not the same as the protocol for the other Casio cameras. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 18:01:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17341 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:01:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cia.net.au (query.cia.net.au [203.17.36.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA17231 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:00:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alastair@cia.com.au) Received: from clarence.progmatics.com.au ([203.28.49.193]) by cia.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06590 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:58:38 +1000 Received: from alastair (192.168.0.67) by clarence.progmatics.com.au (Worldmail 1.3.167); 1 Jul 1998 11:00:38 +1000 Message-ID: <3596E26700000080@clarence.progmatics.com.au> (added by clarence.progmatics.com.au) X-Sender: alastair@mail.cia.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 11:00:35 +1000 To: John Birrell From: Alastair Rankine Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807010101.LAA28610@cimlogic.com.au> References: <199807010043.RAA13843@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:01 AM 1/07/98 +1000, you wrote: >FWIW, Volvo drivers have a very bad reputation here. Volvo is trying >to correct that image via motor racing, but people keep getting reminded >by the behaviour of Volvo drivers on the road. "Actions speak louder >than words". 8-) As a motorcyclist, I can't believe I'm defending Volvos, but... - The new coupes and the last few models (e.g. a friend of mine has a very nice T5R) look really cool. - The only accident I have ever been in happened while I was driving a Volvo. A Honda came through a red traffic light and hit me. The Honda was towed away. The Volvo was drivable, after changing a flat tyre. Taxi drivers are my pet hate. -- [ Alastair Rankine ] [ mailto:alastair@cia.com.au ] [ http://www.cia.com.au/alastair ] [ pgp5 64E4 B67C D2B7 EEC4 63C9 AA74 F63A 9AD9 E44B 21C7 ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 18:18:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20870 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:18:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.chet.com (ala-ca13-17.ix.netcom.com [204.32.168.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20756 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:18:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keithr@ix.netcom.com) Received: from alpha.chet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpha.chet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05517; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:17:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keithr@ix.netcom.com) Message-Id: <199807010117.SAA05517@alpha.chet.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Eivind Eklund cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Jul 1998 00:47:50 +0200." <19980701004750.24786@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:17:15 -0700 From: "K. Ridge" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind, You may not be particularly interested in the following, but it IS a good book on the subject of guns/gun control. (from the standpoint of being convincing and straightforward, I think) More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics) by John R. Lott ISBN 0226493636 $16.10 (USD) from amazon.com Also, You can also get a copy (several formats) of Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Handguns by John R. Lott and David B. Mustard at: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/Publications/Working/41.html > The truth of "the availability of guns increases the chances that they > will be used" I have from personal experience, involving at least two > cases of people not being shot due to the inavailability of usable > guns. > I've had the opposite experience (people not being shot [or beaten or robbed] because concealed weapons WERE present... I guess my results varied? ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 19:03:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27812 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:03:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cygnus.rush.net (root@cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27708; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:02:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16242; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:36:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:36:33 -0500 (EST) From: P Lynch To: Greg Lehey cc: John Birrell , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) In-Reply-To: <19980701102721.A9694@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeh I got a picture of Jordan and Mike Smith at the FreeBSD booth at USENIX I have yet to be developed. I'll put them up on rush.net when I have a chance ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 1 July 1998 at 11:01:22 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >> hmm....i got a baseball cap that says Java here > >> and one from cisco...and a crown racing, and > >> cylink encryptors. > >> > >> does that count? > > > > No way. It needs to be one of those hats that you can't tell if it's > > on backwards. Baseball caps with cool logos don't count at all. > > > > FWIW, Volvo drivers have a very bad reputation here. Volvo is trying > > to correct that image via motor racing, but people keep getting reminded > > by the behaviour of Volvo drivers on the road. "Actions speak louder > > than words". 8-) > > I met Jonathan at USENIX. He really doesn't fit the stereotype. > > And yes, I'll get those pictures on the web as soon as I get past this > *(&^&^& Microslop I'm forced to use. Anybody with software or even > protocol specs for a Casio QV-5000 please raise their hands. It's not > the same as the protocol for the other Casio cameras. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 20:25:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10243 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:25:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10232 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-1-163.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.136.165]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id WAA13897; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:24:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA16194; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:24:50 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980701032448.ZM16193@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 03:24:48 +0000 In-Reply-To: drifter@stratos.net "Re: Does it's true?" (Jun 30, 4:34pm) References: <19980627034631.A944@stratos.net> <199806270857.CAA17321@softweyr.com> <19980627182937.40983@follo.net> <19980627211308.B392@stratos.net> <19980628172900.08399@follo.net> <19980630163405.B714@stratos.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Eivind Eklund , Wes Peters , drifter@stratos.net Subject: Re: Does it's true? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 30, 4:34pm, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > Subject: Re: Does it's true? > On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 05:29:00PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:13:08PM -0400, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > > > This is one common-sense statement that I happen to agree with > > > gun control advocates on. Guns certainly do make it /easier/ to kill > > > people than knives do. (And bombs make it even easier than guns.) > > > But sorry, Eivind, Wes is right about personal responsibility. > > > > A society should be formed to give maximum benefit to the individuals > > in that society. Saying "That criminal was irresponsible" when a > > criminal got a gun and shot your daugther won't bring you anywhere. > > The interesting question is what is done right or wrong on the level > > of a society to bring about or deter this behaviour. Your question regarding what society had done or is doing to bring about ot to deter this behaviour is the crux of the matter. Its readily apparent that in the US, society has in general become more violent. People in general are behaving in ways that show an almost total disrespect for the other person. It has gotten to the point that the prevelent attitude is that as long as I get what I want how cares about the next person. Responsibility for one's actions is getting to be less and less of an issue with many people. Blame my problems on someone else or on how I was abused as a child or other circumstances. It is true that childhood abuse is a factor that is getting worse, or at least is getting more press. So perhaps there is a role for it to play in this problem. The has been a de-sensitization toward and increasing tolerence of violence. Why this is occuring is a matter of some speculation. Perhaps it is greater exposure to violence, but I don't know that that has been proven. However, i have some personal experience that would lead me to believe that it plays a major role. The thug and hoodlum has become more brazen during this time period. An old saying that went along the lines of: I wouldn't walk down that street or road at night, has become I wouldn't go there at any time. > > No, but when you don't have a consistent pattern of punishment > (read consequences) for such actions, it makes such people all the more > bold about there actions. If this happens unchecked, there will be the > risk of increase in crime as arrogance runs out of control. > > > > > > While I agree with the necessity for common-sense regulation > > > of firearms consistent with traditional understanding of the Second > > > Amendment, (in the U.S., at least) the old NRA adage of "Guns don't > > > kill people, people kill people" is a truth many don't want to > > > accept, even if they pay lip service to it. > > > > I'm not certain how the traditional understanding of the second > > amandement is. I've seen so many of them :-) Can you enlightenment as > > to which you consider traditional? > > Very briefly (to conserve space): the right to bear arms at all, > as opposed to the government simply saying 'You may not own or use guns > in any way, any where.' Or less restrictive, but clearly arbitrary laws > meant only to reduce the number of legal gun-ownership cases. I'm not > talking about concealed weapons laws, or laws preventing automatic weapons. > Nevertheless, the point (which I ackowledged) that it is unclear > what laws are consistant and what are not with the second amendment, because > of the poorly worded clauses in that amendment. In any case, the general > trend these days is to make laws more restrictive than they used to be. First off I am not anti gun. Here that Wes. Apparently not restrictive enough. I have no problem in general with possession of firearms. That is a right granted and protected by the US constitution. And that is as it should be. Yet, I do belive that some guns are bad ot just plain meant for massive killing power. First is the so called "saturday night special". No gun enthusiast that I know would have anything to do with them. They are junk that is cheaply made and dangerous to fire. They do blowup in the shooters hands. This stuff should have never been allowed on the market. They are just a cheap way for criminals to get their hands on some fire power. Gun sellers made a fortune on this crap. Assault rifles and similarly designed hand guns do not under any circunstances don't belong in civilian hands. The reason for this are blatantly obvious. > > > > > People kill because they are bad, not because of people like > > > Charlton Heston talking about gun rights all of the time. I am not > > > a member of the NRA, and don't even own a firearm. (The only time I > > > ever shot off one was a time I went skeet shooting -- hit the first > > > clay pigeon and then went 0 for 29!) But I am sick and tired of them > > > being blamed for crimes committed by murderers who lack decency and > > > respect for human life. > > > > This is just plain false. I'm sorry - guns kill people in a _large_ > > set of accidents. You and your family are more likely to be hurt by a > ^^^^^^^^^^ > What exactly in the above paragraph is false? Or are you just > saying the general attitude behind those remarks is wrong? I mentioned > nothing about accidents. Agreed, people do die with gun accidents. More > people die in car accidents. Should we consider making a driver's license > just as restrictive as the way some people would make gun-owner licenses? True. Gun deaths cause by accident are a small percentage of gun related deaths. These are usually caused by dimwits carelessly handling weapons or irresponsible parents that keep weapons in places that allow access by children. > > > gun you buy than the sum of other people. > > > > However, I'm not generally blaming guns in themselves - I'm stating > > that the availability of guns made for killing people make it more > > likely that a criminal will use a gun for killing people. This is > > statistically certain, and placing blame won't bring us anywhere. > > The idea is that blaming guns deflects blame where it belongs: > the people who use them. When this happens in a society over a sustained > period of time, the ability to avoid personal responsability increases > the likelihood criminals will commit crimes, because they know there > is a decreased chance they will have to face the music. This is at least > as true as "the availability of guns increases the chances that they will > be used." It is not the gun that kills, but the shooter that uses the gun that bears the responsibility. Availability of guns doesn't as a rule cause the crime, except perhaps in the crime of passion. There are cases where people that otherwise would not be disposed to commit murder do loose their temper and grab a gun or what ever else that is handy and kill the other. If a gun was not at hand they may well just a soon use something else. Although a gun makes the job a little neater > > > > > > It is only "murder" if you believe it is immoral to take the life > > > of another human being if said human being cold-bloodedly murdered someone > > > else. It /is/ a view-point held by many in this country, though not the > > > majority. > > > Remember, Eivind, this argument can be turned on its > > > head if I ask you about your government's (Norway -- unless 'yes.no' really > > > is a made-up domain name) and society's attidude towards abortion, > > > which is apparently more permissive there (very few legal restrictions) than > > > here in the United States... > > > > Yes, I am from Norway. > > > > This is depend very much on where you introduce humans and human > > worth. IMO, human worth is connected to relationships, both to other > > humans and to self. If you want to bring in 'potential' at an early > > pre-born stage, you're on a slippery slope - what about the potential > > of the kid you could have with the lady over on the right? We're > > Relationships are important, but if ol' Joe is a drunk on the > streets, with no friends, no home, and no family, he is still worth > something, whether people (including himself) realizes it or not. > Technically, I was not referring to "potential life" because there > is nothing "potential" about an unborn child -- the fetus is > alive. If you mean potential in the sense of having advanced emotions, > intellect, and communications skills, an unborn child certainly hasn't yet > gained those traits. I'm not sure though that those are the right > standards to judge "human" by. I am inclined to agree. There is mounting evidence that the unborn has greater capacities than is commonly assumed. > > > wasting potential every day, but IMO that doesn't mean we should > > attempt to have kids with everybody. > > > > However, you're still evading the interesting question: What does > > having a society murdering citizens to satisfy thirst for revenge (ie, > > to satify the bloodthirst of many members of the society) do to that > > society? It at least clearly sends the signal that use of murder for > > Some argue justice. Whether justice = revenge ultimately rests > on people's personal opinion. Others say deterrent. Statistics show > that in this country, the states with death penalties have not deterred > murder, bolstering your argument. > Yet it does act as a detterrent in other nations, like Saudi > Arabia, because people know (unlike here) that the death penalty > will most likely occur and will happen swiftly. I am not sure that a vaild comparision can be made between Saudi Arabia and the US, because of the vast cultural differences. Am not sure that the Saudi's would want to change their culture to run an experiment to verify the assumption. ;-) > Here in Ohio, we have been a death penalty state since 1976. Yet > there hasn't been an *actual* execution since 1964. Currently, there is > a murderer dubbed "The Volunteer", because he actually wants to be > executed. But the mandatory appeals > process would make him wait years before he would actually be killed. > Also, the state has tried to prove that he is not mentally competant > enough to be able to make that judgment. So much for blood thirsty Ohio :) > I think it is safe to say that the overwhelming majority of > first degree murderers are not executed. That inconsistency has largely > removed the cause and effect relationship between the two. I believe > a consistent death penalty probably would deter first degree pre- > meditated murderers, but would probably do little to deter "crimes of > passion" (which generally don't carry the punishment, anyway.) The death penality has done nothing to deter crime. IMO, it only serves as part of the de-sensitization process. When Karla Tucker was executed in Texas this spring, the people turned it into a circus. > It may surprise you to find that I have never been super > gung-ho about the death penalty, and have been more apt to favor a > deliberate appeals process rather than the "swift justice" in the > aforementioned S.A. (I have a grandmother who lived there. No way I > would choose to!) But I must admit I won't lose too much sleep over > Timmy McVeigh when his day comes, either. > > > revenge is OK in some situations, and AFAIK this increase the amount > > of violence in the society. This is not the case for allowing > > abortion. Allowing abortion may change when non-borns or babies are > > considered to get human worth, but this does not seem to add the > > problem of babies being killed. > > I'm not entirely satisfied that there has been a cause-effect > relationship demonstrated between death penalty and a greater liklihood > to kill, either. Some of these are intangibles, and cannot be as easily > quantified (or they can, but correlations do not necessary demonstrate > cause-effect). > Nevertheless, when I see video games where a fighter turns > his opponent into an infant before frying it with a fireball, or those > stories about the Amy Grossbergs who kill their baby just after it is > born (where, in some states, it would have been entirely legal to get > an abortion just moments before), it makes me think that abortion does erode > respect for human life. I would agree also. It appears that it has become all too easy to take a life in the US. There are numerous incidents that indicate that respect for life has eroded. Road rage is nothing but the latest example. Somehow a breakdown of the moral fabric of the US seems to have happened. Frank > > > > > Eivind. > > > > -- > drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send) > "Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising > geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe- > struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?" > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from drifter@stratos.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 20:36:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12149 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12135 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-30.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.94]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA20269; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:37:07 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur To: P Lynch cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PPro vs PII In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, P Lynch wrote: > heh I'm still very happy with my pentium 100, who needs new PC hardware > when the older stuff runs freebsd very well (and I don;t do windows) > I agree, FreeBSD is great for taking advantage of systems that some people think are "throw-aways". I've built two 486 systems out of mostly old parts, unfortuneately I did have to buy some, but .... add those two systems to FreeBSD and NFS and you get a whole lot of fun. > > On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Duncan Barclay wrote: > > > > > On 30-Jun-98 Tony Kimball wrote: > > > I'll move this to chat. > > > > > > Quoth Atipa on Mon, 29 June: > > >: > > > > [snip lots of alpha stuff] > > > > > > > > I'd feel pretty good buying Alpha hardware right about now if only > > > there was an upgrade roadmap. (That's always been the illusory carrot > > > motivating hobbyist hardware choices -- historically favoring intel -- > > > hasn't it? Modular upgrades, carrying over hardware from generation > > > to generation.) > > > > > > > But it doesn't really hold true now for us hobbyist. Things change > > so fast at the motherboard level that unless you upgrade every 6months > > you need to buy MB, CPU and RAM new each time. I've just spent > > about 3weeks trying to work out whether to get a PII, a super-7 or > > a "good" TX to upgrade from my 486. In the end I went for a TX board and > > spent the money I saved on a few toys (like a CDROM/sound card etc.). There > > was no way that a PII or socket 7 board would survive a cpu upgrade in > > say 18months time, which is when I feel I will want to > > upgrade again. > > > > Duncan > > Very happy with an upgrade resulting in about 8times performance improvement. > > Would be less inpressed with a PII-233 to PII-333 upgrade :-) > > > > --- > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, > > dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 21:12:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17737 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17720; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA10110; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:41:59 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980701134158.C9767@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:41:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: P Lynch Cc: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: USENIX photos (was: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?))) Reply-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <19980701102721.A9694@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from P Lynch on Tue, Jun 30, 1998 at 10:36:33PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Copying -hackers, since many people concerned may not be reading -chat. Please follow up to -chat. On Tuesday, 30 June 1998 at 22:36:33 -0500, P Lynch wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >> I met Jonathan at USENIX. He really doesn't fit the stereotype. >> >> And yes, I'll get those pictures on the web as soon as I get past this >> *(&^&^& Microslop I'm forced to use. Anybody with software or even >> protocol specs for a Casio QV-5000 please raise their hands. It's not >> the same as the protocol for the other Casio cameras. > > Yeh I got a picture of Jordan and Mike Smith at the FreeBSD booth at > USENIX I have yet to be developed. I'll put them up on rush.net when I > have a chance OK, now I have the photos on line. Sorry for the delay, I had to use Microsoft, and it drove me crazy. Take a look at http://www.lemis.com/grog/usenix.html. Beware, I haven't put in thumbnails: the page will download about 1.4 MB of data. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 22:59:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00939 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00810; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:58:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA10442; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:10:51 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980701151050.A10131@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:10:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: USENIX photos (was: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?))) Reply-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <19980701102721.A9694@freebie.lemis.com> <19980701134158.C9767@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980701134158.C9767@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 01:41:58PM +0930 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 1 July 1998 at 13:41:58 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > OK, now I have the photos on line. Sorry for the delay, I had to use > Microsoft, and it drove me crazy. > > Take a look at http://www.lemis.com/grog/usenix.html. Beware, I > haven't put in thumbnails: the page will download about 1.4 MB of > data. Wow! I didn't expect so many people to pounce on this at once. Currently I have 17 sessions running concurrently over a 33.6 kb/s line, which gives about 2 kb/s for each of you, and so it's taking forever. I'm moving the files to hub, so you'll probably find it more convenient to wait until they're there (the time is a function of the line load, of course). The URL is http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog/usenix.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 30 23:56:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06639 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:56:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA06626 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:56:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00793; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807010654.XAA00793@implode.root.com> To: P Lynch cc: Matthew Hunt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD T-Shirts? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:20:51 CDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:54:37 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >they had them at USENIX, however, the FreeBSD project guys were selfish :p >(actually they didn;t have many, and probably needed to get more from >Japan or eherever they were made) Actually, WC CDROM just ran out of the stock that they brought with them to the conference. They can be gotten from WC CDROM directly - there should be plenty in stock. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 00:51:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12528 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.tol.it ([194.243.154.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12521 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@tin.it) Received: from dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (a-bu2-6.tin.it [212.216.1.5]) by mail.tol.it (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA20395 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:51:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 1738 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Jul 1998 07:50:48 -0000 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:50:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX photos (was: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?))) In-Reply-To: <19980701151050.A10131@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > I'm moving the files to hub, so you'll probably find it more > convenient to wait until they're there (the time is a function of the > line load, of course). The URL is > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog/usenix.html. Mmmm, it's the first time that I "see" many of you, guys :-) I'm wondering who's the the pretty girl in the TGIF photos ;-) Cheers Marco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 00:59:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13221 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13204; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:59:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05170; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199807010759.AAA05170@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: FreeBSD Chat cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: USENIX photos (was: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Jul 1998 15:10:50 +0930." <19980701151050.A10131@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 00:59:38 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good Job!! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 01:06:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14235 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:06:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14225 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:06:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (sunw132 [134.32.45.120]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA22067 ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:05:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA01466; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:05:13 +0200 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Malartre , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: majordomo References: <3597F619.4C82C04A@aei.ca> <19980630063413.15924@welearn.com.au> <3597FB72.EB269AC5@aei.ca> <19980629165158.34857@futuresouth.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 01 Jul 1998 10:05:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller"'s message of Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:51:58 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 37 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 04:39:14PM -0400, Malartre woke me up to tell me: > > I know, but it work. I unsubscribe myself and majordomo dont ask me > > authentification. > > > It does the authentication based on your From header. If I tried, it > wouldn't work. Go ahead, try and unsubscribe me. Okiedokie. smoergrd@sunw132 ~$ telnet hub.freebsd.org smtp Trying 204.216.27.18... Connected to hub.freebsd.org. Escape character is '^]'. 220 hub.freebsd.org ESMTP Sendmail 8.8.8/8.8.8; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:01:05 -0700 (PDT) mail from: 250 ... Sender ok rcpt to: 550 ... User unknown rcpt to: 250 ... Recipient ok data 354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself From: fullermd@futuresouth.com Subject: (none) To: majordomo@freebsd.org unsubscribe freebsd-stable fullermd@futuresouth.com . 250 BAA13495 Message accepted for delivery quit 221 hub.freebsd.org closing connection Connection closed by foreign host. DES (Sorry, but you asked) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 01:09:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14641 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc8.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14632 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:09:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.90.6]) by ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00312 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:08:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tg@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA06486; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:08:54 +0200 (CEST) To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX photos (was: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?))) References: <19980701102721.A9694@freebie.lemis.com> <19980701134158.C9767@freebie.lemis.com> <19980701151050.A10131@freebie.lemis.com> From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 01 Jul 1998 10:08:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Wed, 01 Jul 1998 15:10:50 +0930" Message-ID: <87pvfq802y.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > I'm moving the files to hub, so you'll probably find it more > convenient to wait until they're there (the time is a function of the > line load, of course). The URL is > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog/usenix.html. Maybe Wolfram can put them on the german website. We already have a page for photos from older meetings there (). tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 01:12:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15065 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15054 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (sunw132 [134.32.45.120]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA22402 ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:11:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA01472; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:11:07 +0200 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Malartre , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: majordomo References: <3597F619.4C82C04A@aei.ca> <19980630063413.15924@welearn.com.au> <3597FB72.EB269AC5@aei.ca> <19980629165158.34857@futuresouth.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 01 Jul 1998 10:11:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com's message of 01 Jul 1998 10:05:13 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) writes: > smoergrd@sunw132 ~$ telnet hub.freebsd.org smtp > Trying 204.216.27.18... > Connected to hub.freebsd.org. > Escape character is '^]'. > 220 hub.freebsd.org ESMTP Sendmail 8.8.8/8.8.8; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:01:05 -0700 (PDT) > mail from: > 250 ... Sender ok > [...] BTW, I just realized that Sendmail should have complained that I didn't say HELO... DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 01:15:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15392 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:15:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15378; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:15:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA08863; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 03:15:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980701031530.07800@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 03:15:30 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: majordomo References: <3597F619.4C82C04A@aei.ca> <19980630063413.15924@welearn.com.au> <3597FB72.EB269AC5@aei.ca> <19980629165158.34857@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4af6u56uh=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Wed=2C_Jul_01=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_10=3A11=3A02AM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 10:11:02AM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav woke me up to tell me: > smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) writes: > > smoergrd@sunw132 ~$ telnet hub.freebsd.org smtp > > Trying 204.216.27.18... > > Connected to hub.freebsd.org. > > Escape character is '^]'. > > 220 hub.freebsd.org ESMTP Sendmail 8.8.8/8.8.8; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 01:01:05 -0700 (PDT) > > mail from: > > 250 ... Sender ok > > [...] > > BTW, I just realized that Sendmail should have complained that I > didn't say HELO... What's weird about that is that it worked... It refused to work that nicely for me, no matter what convolutions I took it into, when this machine went from (for it's primary mail ID) shell.futuresouth.com to futuresouth.com. I couldn't unsubscribe or anything, though I did try the above and about 20 other things. Eventually I had to bug Jonathan about it ;). You'd think majordomo could do some sort of heuristic on the Recieved lines or such-like... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 04:15:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03760 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 04:15:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03755 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 04:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01969 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:15:52 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:15:52 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX photos In-Reply-To: <87pvfq802y.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's good to put some faces to names, the only problem is that they've ruined some perfectly good stereotypes I had built up :-) Andrew Perry > > Greg Lehey writes: > > > I'm moving the files to hub, so you'll probably find it more > > convenient to wait until they're there (the time is a function of the > > line load, of course). The URL is > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog/usenix.html. > > Maybe Wolfram can put them on the german website. We already have a > page for photos from older meetings there > (). > > tg > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 04:57:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07128 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 04:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA07123 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 04:57:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yrLVj-0000lI-00; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:57:16 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA02196 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:57:02 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06267; Wed, 1 Jul 98 12:57:00 BST Message-Id: <359A2400.92490C4C@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 12:56:48 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Why did the chicken cross the road? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The following has been doing the rounds at work, but is lacking 3 obvious entries - The UNIX chicken, the Linux chicken, and , of course, the FreeBSD chicken. Anyone got any good ideas for these? > > WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD? > > > Assembler Chicken: First it builds the road ... > > C Chicken: It crosses the road without looking both ways. > > C++ Chicken: The chicken wouldn't have to cross the road, you'd simply > refer to him on the other side. > > COBOL Chicken: 0001-CHICKEN-CROSSING. > IF NO-MORE-VEHICLES > THEN PERFORM 0010-CROSS-THE-ROAD > VARYING STEPS FROM 1 BY 1 UNTIL > ON-THE-OTHER-SIDE > ELSE > GO TO 0001-CHICKEN-CROSSINGc > > Cray Chicken: Crosses faster than any other chicken, but if you don't > dip it in liquid nitrogen first, it arrives on the other side fully > cooked. > > Delphi Chicken: The chicken is dragged across the road and dropped on > the other side. > > G3 300 mH Chicken: It crosses twice as fast as any Pentium chicken > > Gopher Chicken: Tried to run, but got flattened by the Web chicken. > > Intel Pentium Chicken: The chicken crossed 4.9999978 times. > > Iomega Chicken: The chicken should have backed up before crossing. > > Java Chicken: If your road needs to be crossed by a chicken, the server > will download one to the other side. (Of course, those are chicklets.) > > Lotus Chicken: Don't you *dare* try to cross the road the same way we > do! > > Mac Chicken: No reasonable chicken owner would want a chicken to cross > the road, so there's no way to tell it to. > > Microsoft Chicken (TM): It's already on both sides of the road. And it > just bought the road. > > Newton Chicken: Can't cluck, can't fly, and can't lay eggs, but you can > carry it across the road in your pocket! > > NT Chicken: Will cross the road in June. No, August. September for sure. > > OOP Chicken: It doesn't need to cross the road, it just sends a message. > > OS/2 Chicken: It crossed the road in style years ago, but it was so > quiet that nobody noticed. > > OS/ 8.1 HFS+ Chicken: It had much more free space to cross. > > Quantum Logic Chicken: The chicken is distributed probabalistically on > all sides of the road until you observe it on the side of your choice. > > VB Chicken: USHighways! (aChicken) > > Web Chicken: Jumps out onto the road, turns right, and just keeps on > running. > > Windows 95 Chicken: You see different colored feathers while it crosses, > but cook it and it still tastes like ... chicken. > > Windows 98 Chicken: It should have expected to cause a crash while > crossing. > I've thought of a couple: UNIX chicken - been crossing the road for 30 years without causing a crash Linux chicken - there's so many breeds that one is bound to get run over But I can't think of one for FreeBSD -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 06:08:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14277 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA14266 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (sunw132 [134.32.45.120]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA10081 ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:07:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA01886; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:07:48 +0200 To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? References: <359A2400.92490C4C@uk.radan.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 01 Jul 1998 15:07:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of Wed, 01 Jul 1998 12:56:48 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 28 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > > WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD? > > [...] > I've thought of a couple: > > UNIX chicken - been crossing the road for 30 years without causing a > crash > > Linux chicken - there's so many breeds that one is bound to get run over > > But I can't think of one for FreeBSD Hmmm... UNIX Chicken: Of course it could cross the road, but there are already tools to tear down the road and build it back up on the other side of the chicken, so why bother? Linux Chicken: Thanks to the cooperation of thousands of volunteer chicken from the Internet, there is now an ostrich on the other side of the road. FreeBSD Chicken: You mean the chicken is on the wrong side of the road? Just file a PR and we'll get around to it, eventually. DES (one of those who may eventually get around to it) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 08:29:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28934 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org ([209.17.178.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA28925 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA03512 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:28:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Thanks Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello All, Just wanted to take a moment to thank the developers and maintainers for all the hard work, making learning and using this OS most enjoyable. Thanks many times over, and /\ | | | | |\/ \/| | | | | | | | | | | |`.|\ | | /|,'| | | | | |\| \| |/ |/| | | | | \ Happy / | | | | \ Canada / | | | | \ Day / | | | | \ / | | | | \ / | | | | /_.---| |---._\ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Regards, Discover Rock Solid Kevin G. Eliuk Discover FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSD.Org --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==----==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 09:01:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03431 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03420 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:01:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26700; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:01:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Kevin G. Eliuk wrote: > > | | \ Happy / | | > | | \ Canada / | | > | | \ Day / | | Damn, what am I doing at the office then today??? :) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 10:11:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15148 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:11:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15125 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00287; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:10:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199807011710.KAA00287@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dannyman cc: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD T-Shirts? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:16:05 CDT." <19980628141604.D2944@enteract.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:10:32 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Most Cool, I order the Polo Shirt on Sunday thru the Web interface and got the the Polo Shirt on Tuesday 8) Cheers, Amancio > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:25:37PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:06:46PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > > > I just browse a little at www.freebsd.org and couldn't find a place > > > to order a FreeBSD T-Shirt?? > > > > www.cdrom.com sells FreeBSD T-shirts. Go there and buy buy... > > http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/fbsdtsh.htm > > -- > // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves > \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 17:28:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24023 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24017 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id BAA25563 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:50:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id BAA03529 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:06:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980702010601.B3489@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:06:01 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)) Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199807010043.RAA13843@hub.freebsd.org> <199807010101.LAA28610@cimlogic.com.au> <3596E26700000080@clarence.progmatics.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <3596E26700000080@clarence.progmatics.com.au>; from Alastair Rankine on Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 11:00:35AM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4419 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Alastair Rankine: > Taxi drivers are my pet hate. Don't go to Paris then. I do really hate them too... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #11: Sat Jun 27 00:41:06 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 17:28:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24036 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24019 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id BAA25554 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:49:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id BAA03518 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:05:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980702010502.A3489@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:05:02 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX photos (was: Volvo drivers (was: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?))) Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <19980701151050.A10131@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Marco Molteni on Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 09:50:46AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4419 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Marco Molteni: > I'm wondering who's the the pretty girl in the TGIF photos ;-) She's Lowe Matheson, Branson Matheson's sister. He made the FreeBSD console server talk at USENIX. She's not a computer geek though :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #11: Sat Jun 27 00:41:06 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 17:46:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27082 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:46:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27059 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:46:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA37184; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:46:44 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA09174; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:36:17 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Mark Ovens cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? In-Reply-To: <359A2400.92490C4C@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Mark Ovens wrote: DNS Chicken: The chicken that gives all the other chickens a name and then just sits there. Berkeley Chicken: The rooster that finally figured out how to get chickens to network. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 17:50:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27764 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:50:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27675; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807020050.RAA27675@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at "Jul 1, 98 05:36:17 pm" To: jcwells@u.washington.edu (Jason C. Wells) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Mark Ovens wrote: > > DNS Chicken: The chicken that gives all the other chickens a name and then > just sits there. > > Berkeley Chicken: The rooster that finally figured out how to get chickens > to network. OSPF Chicken: the chicken that tells the others which road to cross. BGP-4 Chicken: the chicken that tells the others which highway. RIP Chicken: the chicken that cant cross 15 roads. ICMP Chicken: the chicken that tells the others why they cant cross. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 18:05:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00711 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:05:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00620 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:04:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA13585; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:31:16 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980702103116.K13424@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:31:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? References: <359A2400.92490C4C@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4ww9x4t40=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Wed=2C_Jul_01=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_03:07:43PM_+0200?= WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 1 July 1998 at 15:07:43 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: > Linux Chicken: Thanks to the cooperation of thousands of volunteer > chicken from the Internet, there is now an ostrich on the other side > of the road. Wasn't that a penguin? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 21:24:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28301 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28237; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:23:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id VAA17908; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:23:54 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id VAA31816; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:13:28 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? In-Reply-To: <199807020050.RAA27675@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >Jason C. Wells wrote: >> On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Mark Ovens wrote: >> >> DNS Chicken: The chicken that gives all the other chickens a name and then >> just sits there. >> >> Berkeley Chicken: The rooster that finally figured out how to get chickens >> to network. > > OSPF Chicken: the chicken that tells the others which road to cross. > BGP-4 Chicken: the chicken that tells the others which highway. > RIP Chicken: the chicken that cant cross 15 roads. > ICMP Chicken: the chicken that tells the others why they cant cross. Would I betray my knowledge if I told you all that I did not know three of these and had the wrong idea about the fourth? These disc access acronyms really confuse me. :P Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 21:41:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00285 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:41:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gjp.erols.com (root@alex-va-n008c079.moon.jic.com [206.156.18.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00278 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:41:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) Received: from gjp.erols.com (gjp@localhost.erols.com [127.0.0.1]) by gjp.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27394; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:40:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Smith , wheelman@nuc.net, steve.a@cableinet.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: A Little Cancer Patient need Your Attention In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:13:23 PDT." <19980630001323.A27143@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 00:40:06 -0400 Message-ID: <27390.899354406@gjp.erols.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote in message ID <19980630001323.A27143@mooseriver.com>: > On Tue, Jun 30, 1998 at 06:23:08AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > And people wonder why I fight for "the right thing" in favor of "the > > expedient thing"... it's because I expect to have to live with my > > decisions for a long, long time. > > Yes, but think about it Terry, if everything was done in an expedient manor > instead of the proper manor and you lived for a very long time you would > have the joy of saying "I told you so" to legions of clueless bozos. Could someone PLEASE tell me what this has to do with FreeBSD, and why we have now gone >>5 rounds with this spam? Can it please end? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 23:07:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10075 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:07:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10069; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28861; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:07:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:07:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807020607.AAA28861@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? From: Wes Peters To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, jcwells@u.washington.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id XAA10070 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Jason C. Wells (jcwells@u.washington.edu) saying: % On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: % % >Jason C. Wells wrote: % > OSPF Chicken: the chicken that tells the others which road to cross. % > BGP-4 Chicken: the chicken that tells the others which highway. % > RIP Chicken: the chicken that cant cross 15 roads. % > ICMP Chicken: the chicken that tells the others why they cant cross. % % Would I betray my knowledge if I told you all that I did not know three of % these and had the wrong idea about the fourth? % % These disc access acronyms really confuse me. :P OK, for your elucidation, here are definitions for these acronyms: OSPF: Open Slowest Path First. This is how we network engineers guarantee we get the bandwidth - we force the routing software to make YOUR connections run slow. BGP4: Bill Gates Protocol, version 4. This protocol allows 95% of your packets through, crashes on the other 5%. Rumor has it an upgrade is available for $129.95 that lets 98% of your packets through. RIP: What happens to your pants when you catch them on a BNC connector. RJ-45s don't have this problem, that's why we wanted all of you to upgrade. ICMP: What happens when you hack into a military network and they catch you. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 23:34:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13036 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:34:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13031 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:34:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (sunw132 [134.32.45.120]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA10593 ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:34:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA02902; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:34:14 +0200 To: Greg Lehey Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? References: <359A2400.92490C4C@uk.radan.com> <19980702103116.K13424@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 02 Jul 1998 08:34:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:31:16 +0930 Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Wednesday, 1 July 1998 at 15:07:43 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > Mark Ovens writes: > > Linux Chicken: Thanks to the cooperation of thousands of volunteer > > chicken from the Internet, there is now an ostrich on the other side > > of the road. > Wasn't that a penguin? Whatever :) but it sure ain't a chicken. DES (a waiting committer¹) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com ¹ I'm sorry. No, really, I'm very sorry. No more puns. I promise. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 23:39:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13598 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13593 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:39:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03938; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:39:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980702013921.34475@futuresouth.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:39:21 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: Greg Lehey , Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? References: <359A2400.92490C4C@uk.radan.com> <19980702103116.K13424@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4ogv84v8a=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Thu=2C_Jul_02=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_08=3A34=3A13AM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 02, 1998 at 08:34:13AM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav woke me up to tell me: > Greg Lehey writes: > > On Wednesday, 1 July 1998 at 15:07:43 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > > Mark Ovens writes: > > > Linux Chicken: Thanks to the cooperation of thousands of volunteer > > > chicken from the Internet, there is now an ostrich on the other side > > > of the road. > > Wasn't that a penguin? > > Whatever :) but it sure ain't a chicken. Does penguin taste like chicken? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 23:42:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13960 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13953 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:42:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA14407; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:12:23 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980702161223.D14070@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:12:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? References: <359A2400.92490C4C@uk.radan.com> <19980702103116.K13424@freebie.lemis.com> <19980702013921.34475@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980702013921.34475@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Thu, Jul 02, 1998 at 01:39:21AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 2 July 1998 at 1:39:21 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, Jul 02, 1998 at 08:34:13AM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav woke me up to tell me: >> Greg Lehey writes: >>> On Wednesday, 1 July 1998 at 15:07:43 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: >>>> Mark Ovens writes: >>>> Linux Chicken: Thanks to the cooperation of thousands of volunteer >>>> chicken from the Internet, there is now an ostrich on the other side >>>> of the road. >>> Wasn't that a penguin? >> >> Whatever :) but it sure ain't a chicken. > > Does penguin taste like chicken? No. -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 1 23:48:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:48:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14961 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:47:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (sunw132 [134.32.45.120]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA11164 ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:46:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA02924; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:46:23 +0200 To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? References: <359A2400.92490C4C@uk.radan.com> <19980702103116.K13424@freebie.lemis.com> <19980702013921.34475@futuresouth.com> <19980702161223.D14070@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 02 Jul 1998 08:46:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:12:23 +0930 Message-ID: Lines: 37 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Thursday, 2 July 1998 at 1:39:21 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 02, 1998 at 08:34:13AM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav woke me up to tell me: > >> Greg Lehey writes: > >>> On Wednesday, 1 July 1998 at 15:07:43 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > >>>> Mark Ovens writes: > >>>> Linux Chicken: Thanks to the cooperation of thousands of volunteer > >>>> chicken from the Internet, there is now an ostrich on the other side > >>>> of the road. > >>> Wasn't that a penguin? > >> Whatever :) but it sure ain't a chicken. > > Does penguin taste like chicken? > No. This is in the FAQ. 12.7. How cool is FreeBSD? Q. Has anyone done any temperature testing while running FreeBSD? I know Linux runs cooler than dos, but have never seen a mention of FreeBSD. It seems to run really hot. A. No, but we have done numerous taste tests on blindfolded volunteers who have also had 250 micrograms of LSD-25 administered beforehand. 35% of the volunteers said that FreeBSD tasted sort of orange, whereas Linux tasted like purple haze. Neither group mentioned any particular variances in temperature that I can remember. We eventually had to throw the results of this survey out entirely anyway when we found that too many volunteers were wandering out of the room during the tests, thus skewing the results. I think most of the volunteers are at Apple now, working on their new ``scratch and sniff'' GUI. It's a funny old business we're in! DES (who denies rumors of his involvment in the aforementioned tests) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 00:15:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20343 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:15:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA20319 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:15:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yrda9-0005Qn-00; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:15:02 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA01299; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:14:18 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02149; Thu, 2 Jul 98 08:14:16 BST Message-Id: <359B333C.EDE413AE@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:14:04 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Coidan Smrgrav Cc: Greg Lehey , "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? References: <359A2400.92490C4C@uk.radan.com> <19980702103116.K13424@freebie.lemis.com> <19980702013921.34475@futuresouth.com> <19980702161223.D14070@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Coidan Smrgrav wrote: [SNIP] > > 12.7. How cool is FreeBSD? > > Q. Has anyone done any temperature testing while running FreeBSD? I > know Linux runs cooler than dos, but have never seen a mention of > FreeBSD. It seems to run really hot. > > A. No, but we have done numerous taste tests on blindfolded volunteers > who have also had 250 micrograms of LSD-25 administered beforehand. > 35% of the volunteers said that FreeBSD tasted sort of orange, whereas > Linux tasted like purple haze...... [SNIP] This reminds me of the following which I read somewhere.... "Two major products to emerge from Berkley are Unix and LSD. We do not believe this to be coincidental" > > DES (who denies rumors of his involvment in the aforementioned tests) > -- > Dag-Erling Smrgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 00:33:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22973 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:33:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA22956 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:33:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yrdrt-00067e-00; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:33:22 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA01336; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:32:49 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02272; Thu, 2 Jul 98 08:32:48 BST Message-Id: <359B3794.5B257156@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:32:36 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dave Ladds Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > DNS Chicken: The chicken that gives all the other chickens a name and then > just sits there. > > Berkeley Chicken: The rooster that finally figured out how to get chickens > to network. > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > | 206-633-5994 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Millenium Bug Chicken: Started to cross the road on 31/12/99 and got to the other side on 1/1/70 -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 00:37:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23936 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23888 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:37:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA02456; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:48:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199807020748.RAA02456@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? In-Reply-To: <359B3794.5B257156@uk.radan.com> from Mark Ovens at "Jul 2, 98 08:32:36 am" To: marko@uk.radan.com (Mark Ovens) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:48:37 +1000 (EST) Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dave.Ladds@uk.radan.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > Millenium Bug Chicken: Started to cross the road on 31/12/99 and got to > the other side on 1/1/70 Of course all these have the same basic nurd problem. They don't answer the question: why? 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 06:41:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22850 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:41:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA22820 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:41:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24645; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:40:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA10582; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807021340.GAA10582@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? In-Reply-To: <359B333C.EDE413AE@uk.radan.com> from Mark Ovens at "Jul 2, 98 08:14:04 am" To: marko@uk.radan.com (Mark Ovens) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Cc: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com, grog@lemis.com, fullermd@futuresouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Mark Ovens: > Dag-Erling Coidan Smrgrav wrote: > > [SNIP] > > > > > 12.7. How cool is FreeBSD? > > > > Q. Has anyone done any temperature testing while running FreeBSD? I > > know Linux runs cooler than dos, but have never seen a mention of > > FreeBSD. It seems to run really hot. > > > > A. No, but we have done numerous taste tests on blindfolded volunteers > > who have also had 250 micrograms of LSD-25 administered beforehand. > > 35% of the volunteers said that FreeBSD tasted sort of orange, whereas > > Linux tasted like purple haze...... > > [SNIP] > > This reminds me of the following which I read somewhere.... > > "Two major products to emerge from Berkley are Unix and LSD. > We do not believe this to be coincidental" > > > Actually, LSD was discovered by a Swiss, Albert Hoffmann (sp?) in the late 1930's or early '40's... Students at Cal just realized its full potential. ---why am i writing this?? gaaaaawk! gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 12:16:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21563 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21525; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25091; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:16:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd025041; Thu Jul 2 12:15:58 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25347; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:15:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807021915.MAA25347@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: A Little Cancer Patient need Your Attention To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG (Gary Palmer) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:15:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, tlambert@primenet.com, mike@smith.net.au, wheelman@nuc.net, steve.a@cableinet.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <27390.899354406@gjp.erols.com> from "Gary Palmer" at Jul 2, 98 00:40:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > And people wonder why I fight for "the right thing" in favor of "the > > > expedient thing"... it's because I expect to have to live with my > > > decisions for a long, long time. > > > > Yes, but think about it Terry, if everything was done in an expedient manor > > instead of the proper manor and you lived for a very long time you would > > have the joy of saying "I told you so" to legions of clueless bozos. > > Could someone PLEASE tell me what this has to do with FreeBSD, and why > we have now gone >>5 rounds with this spam? Can it please end? Well, this is -chat, for one, so it doesn't really have to be about FreeBSD, technically. It's a place to drag off-topic discussions. You need to read the subtext of the irony to get what he was saying in response to what I was saying. In this particular case, it comes down to standards and practice in software engineering, vs. standards and practice that is employed by the FreeBSD developement effort. The medical angle is relevent in that I personally fully expect to have to live with the consequences of my engineering for a long time; by 2028, a strict linear projection has human life expectancy increasing at the rate of one year per year. I also fully expect to have to, in the future, program systems which are massively more complex than a simple multiprocessor Intel box with kernel threads and realtime. Call FreeBSD "cutting our teeth". A lot of engineering is done expediently, and "damn the consequences (we'll deal with them later, when we are forced to)". CV: the Y2K problem. This type of engineering is wrong. It is the engineering equivalent of "crisis management". There is an engineering soloution to this engineering problem, but no one in authority over the organizational architecture is willing to countenance it; it involves loss of individual power, which is antithetical to the strange attractors which formed the organization in the first place. This can all be modelled mathematically; the models are easy to understand with no more than a 4th year undergraduate understanding of partial differential equations (ie: "math 452"). You don't need an understanding of games theory (though if you had one, the consequences of the math would be obvious to you). In any case, the net upshot should be "do the right thing the right way", or as Seneca, the stoic philosopher from the 4th decate AD stated in his _Letters From A Stoic_: Never substitute activity for action. If you expect to have to live with the consequences of your actions, then these are words to live by. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 13:13:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29295 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:13:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.tol.it (mail.tin.it [194.243.154.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29281 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:12:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@tin.it) Received: from dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (a-bu3-8.tin.it [212.216.1.135]) by mail.tol.it (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA20161 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:12:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 2441 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Jul 1998 20:09:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:09:57 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Strange attractors and fractals (was: A Little Cancer Patient need Your Attention) In-Reply-To: <199807021915.MAA25347@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > There is an engineering soloution to this engineering problem, but > no one in authority over the organizational architecture is willing > to countenance it; it involves loss of individual power, which is > antithetical to the strange attractors which formed the organization ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ hehehe, Dynamic Systems Theory ... > in the first place. > > This can all be modelled mathematically; the models are easy to > understand with no more than a 4th year undergraduate understanding > of partial differential equations (ie: "math 452"). You don't need > an understanding of games theory (though if you had one, the > consequences of the math would be obvious to you). Ok, Terry, so let's do some differential equations ;-))) Marco --- Il mondo e' bello perche' e' Bacio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 14:44:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14628 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:44:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orkan.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14589 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by orkan.canonware.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10373 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:45:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Evans To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Q: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been working (alone up to now) on SQRL (http://www.sqrl.org/sqrl), an SQL RDBMS. I'm using the FBSD license, and now with the potential of having more than one copyright holder, I'm wondering how to satisfy the license requirements (license shown and explained at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook279.html). So, two different questions: 1) Does the modified license shown below still hold water without changing the basic gist of the license? 2) If there are various sets of of authors for a set of files, how can the second condition of the FBSD copyright be met? Does the entire license have to be reproduced for each unique set of authors, or can they be merged? As the standard FBSD license reads, it seems to me that anyone who distributes a binary-only FreeBSD-based product is legally required to print reams of copyright notices in the documentation. That sucks for the distributor and for the customers. I realize I'm asking legal questions of non-lawyers, but hopefully this very issue has been dealt with by people here. It is not my intention to release SQRL in a binary-only format, but I want it to be easy for others to do so. Thanks, Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Web: [http://www.canonware.com/~jasone] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] All changes are pointed out by "^" or ">". -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Copyright (c) 1996-1998 Jason Evans . > All rights reserved. >Copyright (c) 1998 Joe Schmo . All rights reserved. >Copyright (c) 1996, 1998 Jack Daniels . > All rights reserved. Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met: 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice(s), this list of conditions and the following disclaimer as ^^^^^^^^^ > the first lines of this file, unmodified other than the possible > addition of one or more copyright notices. 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice(s), this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in ^^^^^^^^^ the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER(S) ``AS IS'' AND ANY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER(S) BE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 15:19:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20486 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [204.27.67.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20463 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@bone.nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (localhost.communique.net [127.0.0.1]) by bone.nectar.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA02787 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:18:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807022218.RAA02787@bone.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine Subject: Jolitz book cancelled? To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 17:18:25 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi, I was looking forward to Volume 2 of the Jolitz' ``Source Code Secrets'' series, but it seems it has been cancelled. Does anyone know about the details of this? i.e. I wonder if it has been permanently cancelled, or put on hold, or what. Curious, Jacques Vidrine - ------- Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807021839.LAA12404@cs-sava.amazon.com> To: n+amazon@nectar.com Subject: Your Amazon.com order Cc: orders@amazon.com We have contacted the supplier by phone and are sorry to report that the publication of the following title has been cancelled: L. W. Jolite, William Jolitz "Virtual Memory System Source Code Secrets (The 386 Bsd Operating System Reference, Vol 2)" This unavailable item has been cancelled from your order. Your credit card will NOT BE CHARGED for this item. For your reference, here is a summary of your order: [snipped] 1 of L. W. Jolite, William Jolitz "Virtual Memory System Source Code Secrets (The 386 Bsd Operating System Reference, Vol 2)" Item unavailable Thanks for shopping at Amazon.com, and we hope to see you again! Sincerely, Customer Service Department Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/ - ------- End of Forwarded Message -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNZwHMTeRhT8JRySpAQHLEQP9Hqp84+s0WPseDlhZU9o1bMDkP1Wfa7XS /HUF0hro1h5xtRvAXf48xqu9thhMmvIBuGYZIip931jsbB/Di1A47lGUjwCOLQzQ aIovMCcD+1EPNhfUbjJ/ikAi6LC8s+7KXrEGVllboWusCrLZbyCa08wGSMxHsUj+ 5BMEu5xHEBo= =T0WO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 17:12:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03427 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:12:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03419 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:12:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA16015; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:42:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980703094238.T14070@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:42:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jacques Vidrine , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jolitz book cancelled? References: <199807022218.RAA02787@bone.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807022218.RAA02787@bone.nectar.com>; from Jacques Vidrine on Thu, Jul 02, 1998 at 05:18:25PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 2 July 1998 at 17:18:25 -0500, Jacques Vidrine wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hi, > > I was looking forward to Volume 2 of the Jolitz' ``Source Code > Secrets'' series, but it seems it has been cancelled. Does anyone > know about the details of this? i.e. I wonder if it has been > permanently cancelled, or put on hold, or what. I don't know anything about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it would be permanent. The first book didn't get much of a welcome, and it describes in minute detail an obsolete BSD version (IIRC based on 4.3BSD Net/2, not 4.4BSD). I'd guess that the publisher was pretty disappointed in the sales. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 20:15:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28245 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:15:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28217; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA00651; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:45:15 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:45:14 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David Caldwell Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com>; from David Caldwell on Thu, Jul 02, 1998 at 06:09:15PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 2 July 1998 at 18:09:15 -0700, David Caldwell wrote: > Hello, > My name is David Caldwell and I have a question that is sure to generate > some curiosity amongst those who read it (as well as some laughs). > I would like to know if this is a "good" operating system to start a > young mind in learning to use a computer? > Here is what I am proposing so that you will get a better understanding > of what I am asking for. > I have a9 year old daughter and an 8 year old son who both have more > curiosity about "how does your computer work Dad???" than I did when I > bought my first TRS-80 model 3.My son at this moment is having some > difficulty with his reading skills and doesn't really try that hard when > I try to coax him into reading to me,so I thought that I would use his > "want to know about a computer" to good use and set him up with a crash > box 486 and a totally different operating system than the windows unit > that he sees me working with. > My theory is that UNIX and operating systems that work like it will > never die and they are fairly complex to understand,they require a fair > amount of reading to be done before trying to make additions or changes > and the rewards for working at it can be immense. > So we will kill several birds with one stone:his reading will improve,he > will learn to type,he will know more about a computer (satisfying his > curiosity),and the knowledge that he gains and the skills he learns will > give him confidence. > Anyone can use DOS and Windows but it take a fair amount of brains to > use UNIX and not crash it while maneuvering thru it. > Am I barking up the wrong tree or should I go for it....any input would > be most helpful and from more than one source would be > appreciated...especially one with kids. > I am at a loss as far as my daughters math skills but any suggestions > there would be helpful. Interesting question. I gave up with my daughter (I just didn't have the time and patience to explain every detail). Still, she seems to be getting the hang of it. About the biggest thing I'm realizing from having a house full of computer semi-literates is that the biggest stumbling block is the ability to work with files, including editing. I'd recommend that your kids learn those concepts early on. In any case, this isn't really a question for -questions, so I'm following up to -chat. I'd suggest you sign up there if you're not already subscribed. You others in -questions, could you do the same, please? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 21:32:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10216 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:32:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ikhala.tcimet.net (ikhala.tcimet.net [198.109.166.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10211 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:32:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dervish@ikhala.tcimet.net) Received: (from dervish@localhost) by ikhala.tcimet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01001; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:36:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dervish) From: bush doctor Message-Id: <199807030436.AAA01001@ikhala.tcimet.net> Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) In-Reply-To: <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 3, 98 12:45:14 pm" To: caldwell_david@hotmail.com Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 2 July 1998 at 18:09:15 -0700, David Caldwell wrote: > Hello, > My name is David Caldwell and I have a question that is sure to generate > some curiosity amongst those who read it (as well as some laughs). > I would like to know if this is a "good" operating system to start a > young mind in learning to use a computer? > Here is what I am proposing so that you will get a better understanding > of what I am asking for. > I have a9 year old daughter and an 8 year old son who both have more > curiosity about "how does your computer work Dad???" than I did when I > bought my first TRS-80 model 3.My son at this moment is having some > difficulty with his reading skills and doesn't really try that hard when > I try to coax him into reading to me,so I thought that I would use his > "want to know about a computer" to good use and set him up with a crash > box 486 and a totally different operating system than the windows unit > that he sees me working with. > My theory is that UNIX and operating systems that work like it will > never die and they are fairly complex to understand,they require a fair > amount of reading to be done before trying to make additions or changes > and the rewards for working at it can be immense. > So we will kill several birds with one stone:his reading will improve,he > will learn to type,he will know more about a computer (satisfying his > curiosity),and the knowledge that he gains and the skills he learns will > give him confidence. > Anyone can use DOS and Windows but it take a fair amount of brains to > use UNIX and not crash it while maneuvering thru it. > Am I barking up the wrong tree or should I go for it....any input would > be most helpful and from more than one source would be > appreciated...especially one with kids. > I am at a loss as far as my daughters math skills but any suggestions > there would be helpful. go for it!!! ... =;-) i plan on teaching my children the unix philosophy. i feel that it is a great environment for stimulating the olde grey matter and ones creativity. this is one skill that should be passed on to the youth of today. -- bush doctor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 2 23:29:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23328 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:29:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp7265.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23323 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:29:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.my.domain) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05040; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:23:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:23:10 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Greg Lehey , David Caldwell Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:45:14PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:45:14PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > My theory is that UNIX and operating systems that work like it will > > never die and they are fairly complex to understand,they require a fair > > amount of reading to be done before trying to make additions or changes > > and the rewards for working at it can be immense. I think you do discount some of the things that can be learned from DOS batch file programming (laugh if you will...I learned some pretty damn important stuff there) and QBasic (the advantage here is that the two may have friends also programming in QBasic -> larger support group) too quickly. That said, the limit to what UNIX can teach you is much much farther away than the limit to what DOS can teach you. > > Anyone can use DOS and Windows but it take a fair amount of brains to > > use UNIX and not crash it while maneuvering thru it. > > Am I barking up the wrong tree or should I go for it....any input would > > be most helpful and from more than one source would be > > appreciated...especially one with kids. Hmm... This reminds me of when I decided my brother (about the same age as your kids at the time) needed to learn perl. I printed up the perl4 manual, gave it to him, and insisted he spend every spare moment reading it. He never did get through the thing (or even come close), but I suspect it was a valuable experience... (It [telling him to read it] was for me, at least... :-). More than learning to read, or anything else for that matter, I think he learned some amount of personal discipline. Anyways, I think what you are proposing is tricky to pull off and happens more often by chance than design, but certainly possible... :) The one problem is that many kids now-a-days are attracted only to graphics and glitzy lights. I have yet to meet a young boy who doesn't have at least a passing interest in programming (accuse me of being sexist if you want...I suspect it has something to do with the "control" aspect, which actually reflects negatively on those interested in it, if you think about it...). I wonder if there is a Tcl/Tk book that the two could handle. I think if your goal is short-term, you're not going to be succesful. However, if you take a long-term view and approach, then you may do quite well. > > I am at a loss as far as my daughters math skills but any suggestions > > there would be helpful. Ph. She's 9 years old. They don't teach noth'n in math at 9. I believe the correct thing to encourage at that age is a desire to understand _why_ things work the way they do. Hmm. Remember when you were in school? ;-) I think I've seen enough people have their marks switch polarities that I don't believe the things we should be teaching young children are how to get good marks, how to study, or how to do all their homework. I think it comes down to perserverence, self-confidence, and determination. Reworded, it comes down to teaching children to do their work not because they'll get a cookie in exchange, but because it is the right thing to do and has its own rewards. The ever-patient role model. [And no, please don't tell me the skills they teach at 9 years are basic skills that are required for all future maths...Watching Calculus students who still enter things like 20x5 (or simpler) into their calculator, I can say they're pretty useful skills, but they're definiately _not_ required...] Of course, how far you can go with this really (really) depends on the child. :-( :-( If it's any consolation, I bet a lot of the people here could relate that they were given low or failing math marks at a young age... (I know I could). > About the biggest thing I'm realizing from having a house full of > computer semi-literates is that the biggest stumbling block is the > ability to work with files, including editing. I'd recommend that > your kids learn those concepts early on. I don't see that. From a pragmatic perspective, the biggest problem here is asking questions, which it seems people are afraid to do since I'm told I give rather intimidating answers too often (the people telling me this are probably right). If I was to pick a "most-lacking basic skill", I think I'd choose the ability to research problems on the Internet. All IMHO, of course. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 00:20:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00753 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00633 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (sunw132 [134.32.45.120]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA03383 ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:19:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA08759; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:19:21 +0200 To: Jason Evans Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders References: Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 03 Jul 1998 09:19:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jason Evans's message of Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Evans writes: > As the standard FBSD license reads, it seems to me that anyone who > distributes a binary-only FreeBSD-based product is legally required to > print reams of copyright notices in the documentation. That sucks for the > distributor and for the customers. It's there for a reason. I can't understand why UCB hasn't sued the pants off Microsoft yet... The monkeys in Redmond are shipping software under Berkeley license without including the proper magic incantations in their advertising material or documentation. Wouldn't it be a ball to see Microsoft print "This product includes software developed at the University of California, Berkeley" on the cover of every single Windows 98 or Windows NT CD? DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 00:34:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03067 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:34:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03062 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:34:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (sunw132 [134.32.45.120]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA04014 ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:32:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA08771; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:32:52 +0200 To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: Greg Lehey , David Caldwell , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 03 Jul 1998 09:32:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: Tim Vanderhoek's message of Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:23:10 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Vanderhoek writes: > On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:45:14PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > My theory is that UNIX and operating systems that work like it will > > > never die and they are fairly complex to understand,they require a fair > > > amount of reading to be done before trying to make additions or changes > > > and the rewards for working at it can be immense. > I think you do discount some of the things that can be learned from > DOS batch file programming (laugh if you will...I learned some pretty > damn important stuff there) and QBasic (the advantage here is that the > two may have friends also programming in QBasic -> larger support > group) too quickly. That said, the limit to what UNIX can teach you > is much much farther away than the limit to what DOS can teach you. I don't see a problem here. I have a friend at University (a PhD student - incidentally, he's the author of /usr/ports/lang/cim) who is teaching his son to program Tcl on Linux¹. The kid's got his own serial terminal hooked up to his father's 486... He's doing great so far. Then again, the kid's a little out of the ordinary: he's hooked on math/logic games such as Rubik's cube and the likes (though I think that hobby comes from his father) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com ¹ Don't worry, his next computer will run FreeBSD - I've seen to that To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 00:43:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03925 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA03920 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:42:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ys0Tb-0002R2-00; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:41:47 +0200 Message-ID: <19980703094147.B9316@cityip.co.za> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:41:47 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: David Caldwell Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) Mail-Followup-To: David Caldwell , FreeBSD Chat References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:45:14PM +0930 X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 03 Jul 1998 at 12:45 SAT, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 2 July 1998 at 18:09:15 -0700, David Caldwell wrote: > > > > I have a9 year old daughter and an 8 year old son who both have more > > curiosity about "how does your computer work Dad???" than I did when I > > bought my first TRS-80 model 3.My son at this moment is having some I often wonder whether computers haven't become too complex for beginning users. Back in our days there was the VIC-20 and the TRS-80 and (esp. in the UK) the Spectrum, and they were all wonderful and fashionable and state of the art. _And_ they were simple enough that a young teenager who played with one incessantly for a year or three could know it inside out. Nowadays... how can a child ever hope to understand even the basic surface elements of a PC, regardless of whether it runs Win95, NT, or a UNIX flavour? I think those of us who are now in our mid - late 20's are lucky. We had those simple little home computers to play with at exactly the right time. And then we had fabulous beasts like the Amiga and the ST to play with when we were a little older and more mature. And now we have FreeBSD. :-) But as to what is right for a child today... I have no idea. -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 02:10:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17296 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:10:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17236 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:10:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17458; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:10:34 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA24891; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:10:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:10:31 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4n2ar1ja4=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Fri=2C_Jul_03=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_09=3A32=3A51AM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 09:32:51AM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek writes: > I don't see a problem here. I have a friend at University (a PhD > student - incidentally, he's the author of /usr/ports/lang/cim) who is > teaching his son to program Tcl on Linux¹. The kid's got his own > serial terminal hooked up to his father's 486... He's doing great so > far. Then again, the kid's a little out of the ordinary: he's hooked > on math/logic games such as Rubik's cube and the likes (though I think > that hobby comes from his father) Hey! This is cool! The author of the language-implementation the local univeristy uses to teach programming (they use Simula, telling users to get cim for homework) is using TCL to teach programming! *large and evil grin* I'm sick and tired of that particular university turning out people that have _less_ clues about practical programming realtities than when they entered. They tend to end up unable to see that something that cut 80% of my problems in an active area is a worthwhile refinement, even though the general problem is undecidable (like "you can't prove all invariants for a program in the general case" to them implies "all forms of invariants are useless"). Eivind, who just _had_ to rant, and also respect quite a few people from there (after he's had a chance to train them first, of course ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 03:02:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27148 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:02:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27108 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (sunw132 [134.32.45.120]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA12857 ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:01:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09143; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:01:25 +0200 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 03 Jul 1998 12:01:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: Eivind Eklund's message of Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:10:31 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 38 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > Hey! This is cool! The author of the language-implementation the > local univeristy uses to teach programming (they use Simula, telling > users to get cim for homework) is using TCL to teach programming! > *large and evil grin* What the hell is that grin for? Would *you* teach an eleven-year old to program with a compiled language? Of course you wouldn't. You'd choose an interpreted language where subtle typos don't shoot your leg off. > I'm sick and tired of that particular university turning out people > that have _less_ clues about practical programming realtities than > when they entered. They tend to end up unable to see that something > that cut 80% of my problems in an active area is a worthwhile > refinement, even though the general problem is undecidable (like "you > can't prove all invariants for a program in the general case" to them > implies "all forms of invariants are useless"). That was totally gratuitous. Perhaps you wouldn't speak out of your arse like that if you had spent a semester or two at the university in question. BTW, the university in question is one of very few institutions in Norway which actually teaches program verification. Unfortunately, few students bother to take those courses. In your opinion, does that indicate lack of intelligence on the university's part, or on the student's part? > Eivind, who just _had_ to rant, and also respect quite a few people > from there (after he's had a chance to train them first, of course Go ahead and train me. I doubt there's much you could teach me about invariants. DES (who *teaches* bloody invariants at the U of O) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 03:10:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28254 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:10:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA28231 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:09:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA02110; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:39:13 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980703193912.M358@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:39:12 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Eivind Eklund Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4ogv7gsne=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Fri=2C_Jul_03=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_12:01:25PM_+0200?= WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 3 July 1998 at 12:01:25 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Eivind Eklund writes: >> Hey! This is cool! The author of the language-implementation the >> local univeristy uses to teach programming (they use Simula, telling >> users to get cim for homework) is using TCL to teach programming! >> *large and evil grin* > > What the hell is that grin for? Would *you* teach an eleven-year old > to program with a compiled language? Of course you wouldn't. You'd > choose an interpreted language where subtle typos don't shoot your > leg off. To be fair, I agree with Eivind. If this guy is so convinced about his language, he'll write an interpreter. And if you can shoot your leg off with Simula at age 11, you can still crash a plane with it at age 33. (Not that I have had much to do with Simula in the last 20 years. Which version is this?) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 03:45:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03984 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03975 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:44:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (sunw132 [134.32.45.120]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA15146 ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:43:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw132.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09217; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:43:49 +0200 To: Greg Lehey Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Eivind Eklund , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> <19980703193912.M358@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 03 Jul 1998 12:43:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:39:12 +0930 Message-ID: Lines: 61 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Friday, 3 July 1998 at 12:01:25 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > Eivind Eklund writes: > >> Hey! This is cool! The author of the language-implementation the > >> local univeristy uses to teach programming (they use Simula, telling > >> users to get cim for homework) is using TCL to teach programming! > >> *large and evil grin* > > What the hell is that grin for? Would *you* teach an eleven-year old > > to program with a compiled language? Of course you wouldn't. You'd > > choose an interpreted language where subtle typos don't shoot your > > leg off. > To be fair, I agree with Eivind. If this guy is so convinced about > his language, he'll write an interpreter. And if you can shoot your > leg off with Simula at age 11, you can still crash a plane with it at > age 33. (Not that I have had much to do with Simula in the last 20 > years. Which version is this?) I think there's a slight misunderstanding here. Sverre Johansen does not teach programming at the University of Oslo. Neither does he have any influence on the choice of language in the introductory programming courses. His involvment with Simula consists mostly of having written a compiler as part of his Master's thesis. He continues to maintain cim while working on his PhD and teaching a post-grad compiler theory course, but it is by no means his primary occupation. For the record, the Department of Informatics is planning to switch to Java as primary teaching language. This is generally regarded as a bad move by anybody who knows his way around a compiler. The decision was based more on political than on techincal arguments, and would probably not have been made had not Prof. Kirkerud been incapacitated since last december. Bjørns absence, and the ascension of Jens Kaasbøll to the position of teaching coordinator¹ has tilted the scale in favor of the Systems Development group, who IMNSHO should never, ever be allowed to have any say in such matters. These are the people who are teaching students that programmers and other assorted Computer Scientists are evil people who are permanently trying to belittle and dominate innocent users (e.g. Systems Developers), and that although they have their uses (after all, Microsoft has to get their engineers from *somewhere*) they must be reined in, controlled and closely supervised lest they put everybody except themselves out of a job. BTW, it might prove interesting to take that last sentence and replace every occurrence of "programmer" and "Computer Scientist" with "landowner" and "Capitalist", and "user" and "Systems Developer" with "laborer" and "Socialist". The result might be less of a surprise if you know that the SD department has been headed for many, many years by Kristen Nygård, renowned Labor politician and anti-EU combatant (and incidentially, co-inventor of Simula - small world, huh?) Can you spell academentia? DES (CS, dammit, *C* *S*) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com ¹ "Undervisningsleder" - I couldn't find a better translation. BTW, Prof. Bjørn Kirkerud passed away on June 20th, the victim of a rapidly growing brain tumor. He will be sorely missed... :( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 04:11:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09037 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 04:11:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA09013 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 04:11:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06386; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:10:55 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA25952; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:10:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980703131053.24570@follo.net> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:10:54 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4ogv7gsne=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Fri=2C_Jul_03=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_12=3A01=3A25PM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:01:25PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Eivind Eklund writes: > > Hey! This is cool! The author of the language-implementation the > > local univeristy uses to teach programming (they use Simula, telling > > users to get cim for homework) is using TCL to teach programming! > > *large and evil grin* > > What the hell is that grin for? Would *you* teach an eleven-year old > to program with a compiled language? Of course you wouldn't. You'd > choose an interpreted language where subtle typos don't shoot your > leg off. I'd use the same language to teach an 11-year-old as a 19+ year old. I'd preferably choose an interpreted language with fairly small and regular syntax; TCL, Scheme or Eiffel (the last only if I could run a 'melting ice' environment) seem like good choices. My evil grin was intended for the University; I liked the fact that the author of the compiler they use could see what they couldn't: That Simula may not be the right choice for a beginners' langauge. (They could have made far worse choices, though.) > > I'm sick and tired of that particular university turning out people > > that have _less_ clues about practical programming realtities than > > when they entered. They tend to end up unable to see that something > > that cut 80% of my problems in an active area is a worthwhile > > refinement, even though the general problem is undecidable (like "you > > can't prove all invariants for a program in the general case" to them > > implies "all forms of invariants are useless"). > > That was totally gratuitous. Perhaps you wouldn't speak out of your > arse like that if you had spent a semester or two at the university in > question. I'm willing to stand by my statement: People that had a collection of clues about practical engineering before they entered tend (in my experience) to leave with fewer clues. The students get a lot of theory, but it take a lot of time before they are able to match this to actual work. They also tend to be far away from programming, not being able to 'breathe code'. They lack the engineer's horse sense, switching between different ways of theorizing without seeing hwo this applies to the practical world. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it has frustrated me for _years_. I've been doing on-the-job training of people that IMO shouldn't need it for five years+, having to fire at least one friend (the company in question was just starting up, and couldn't afford dead weight at all). The problem isn't that the people aren't bright; as far as I've been able to tell, it is inadequate teaching. > BTW, the university in question is one of very few institutions in > Norway which actually teaches program verification. Unfortunately, few > students bother to take those courses. In your opinion, does that > indicate lack of intelligence on the university's part, or on the > student's part? I think this indicate that the university has some correct ideas. I have, however, not yet met any student of that course who actually apply their knowledge in day-to-day programming - they regard it as pure theory. Even when I spend ten minutes to fetter out the bugs they've spent days attempting to find, they won't switch methods. (They tend to switch after a couple of rounds, though :-) I don't think a course that end up as pure theory is good enough - if the enthusiasm for the subject isn't communicated to the students, if they don't end up using what they learn (and I'm not thinking of a just a single student - I've been working with scores of them) then something is wrong in how it is communicated. > > Eivind, who just _had_ to rant, and also respect quite a few people > > from there (after he's had a chance to train them first, of course > > Go ahead and train me. I doubt there's much you could teach me about > invariants. > > DES (who *teaches* bloody invariants at the U of O) I didn't remember this - sorry. I should have used another example. It was *not* meant as an insult to you. The only thing I have to offer in the area is experience in how to use invariants in practice. I don't doubt that both the teachers and the students at that course have (or end up having) the theory in place. I just see the students having problems with applying this _at all_ to a pragmatic world. If you want to, I can buy you a beer and we can have a real-world talk about what can be done about this :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 04:20:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA11353 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 04:20:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11334 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 04:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07543; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:20:40 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA26003; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:20:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980703132039.45789@follo.net> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:20:39 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> <19980703193912.M358@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4k95vgqoq=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Fri=2C_Jul_03=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_12=3A43=3A49PM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:43:49PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > The decision was based more on political than on techincal > arguments, and would probably not have been made had not > Prof. Kirkerud been incapacitated since last december. Uhm - I don't quite know how to put this, but I don't think he'll come back. Professor Kirkerud is being buried today :-( Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 05:09:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18336 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:09:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mrelay.jrc.it (mrelay.jrc.it [139.191.1.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA18265; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick.hibma@jrc.it) Received: from elect8 (elect8.jrc.it [139.191.71.152]) by mrelay.jrc.it (LMC5688) with SMTP id OAA00078; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:09:16 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:02:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8 Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG, newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PKGINFO statistics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In short, it would be appreciated if you could execute the command below on your FreeBSD box. It is harmless. /usr/sbin/pkg_info -aI | \ /usr/bin/mail -s "PKGINFO `hostname`" \ nick.hibma@jrc.it (this command should be all on one line, like: /usr/bin/pkg_info -aI | mail -s "PKGINFO `hostname`" nick.hibma@jrc.it The `hostname` in the subject is there to be able to filter out duplicates but is not required at all, in case you want to send it anonymously. It sends me a list of all the packages you have installed on the machine you execute the command on. Reason to do this: In a discussion the idea came up to see if profiles for the usage of packages could be found. If a large number of these pkg_info lists are retrieved we can try to find relations between each two installed packages. This could be used to offer predefined profiles to the user when installing packages. This avoids the user to having to wade through the entire list of packages when deciding what to install. The directory structure present in the /usr/ports directory already provides a means to do this but this could be improved upon. See for a more elaborate discussion the message below. Thanks for your help and my apologies for the cross posting. Please note that I am not subscribed to any of the mailing lists (except hackers) and any flames should be sent to my personal address only. I will collect all the flames and post a digest. :-) Nick Hibma ======== >From nick.hibma@jrc.it Fri Jul 3 13:34:37 1998 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:01:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nick Hibma To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: FreeBSD hackers mailing list Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? > > That is true, but the idea of profiles and a more copious choice of > > what you might want to install is not a bad idea either I think. > > I think it is a "slippery slope", as each of us has a different > collection of packages which we feel are important for machines > once we have them setup as a production service. If we start down > this path, we will probably end up just reorganizing the ports list, > whereas what I'm hoping for is a very short list of packages which > are displayed during the initial install time. Let's separate between two different issues. One, the more important and urgent one: your point of creating a list of packages which should be optional but most probably necessary on a newly installed system. You mention bash as an example, perl5 is another one. Add a tick box in one of the installation menus and add the packages to the CD and you are done. The more room on the CD the more packages you can add to that list if you like. The idea of profiles is the other one and as you say, it is a slippery slope. Most people install the operating system for the first time to try and if they have the feeling that they are being coached through the process and been given choices that they can easily understand, they'll probably have a better feeling about what is happening to them. Profiles you can see as different views on the database of packages available. You can already see this if you look at the way the packages are structured now. The point is that you can select a number of profiles that suite you. They might overlap, for example web, mail and software development, but you have a preselection of packages which should fullfill most your intended uses. Enhancing the profiles with relations makes it even more sexy. For example, installing MSQL on a development system that also has perl installed could trigger the adding perl5-msql. Having selected X and ghostscript makes it invitable to install ghostview as well. An idea is to collect a lot of pkg_info -aI lists and see if you can use statistics to guess what someone might want to install as well. Taking into account the available disk space and using the statistical analysis to rank the automatically added packages would keep the thing from installing too many things. REQUEST: I hereby post a request for pkg_info -aI listings of FBSD machines. Please add in the subject PKGINFO. That makes the message more of an object that _just_knows_ which mail folder to go to. The following should do: pkg_info -aI | mail -s "PKGINFO `hostname`" nick.hibma@jrc.it should do the trick. And, someone has said this (I cannot remember his name), there should be a step in between the installation of the base system (O sys and basic functionality /usr/bin and packages) and the installation of the packages through selection/profiles/whatever. In contrast to MicroDollar there is a difference between the operating system and the user interface. A remark about the fact that the operating system and base functionality (including the item above, the packages on CD 1) has been completely installed and that he now can continue with the installation of added functionality if he wishes to do so, should be added. To avoid the problem Garance had when installing FreeBSD (supposedly nuking his fresh installation during the installation of XFree) maybe some consolidation stage should be added (reboot) after dumping a README on what to do next to the screen/to more. Shouldn't we force a reboot to make sure we run off a decent medium (common guys, one reboot is not the end of the world! :-) Is it at all possible to install XFree at that stage, because of the lack of swap and RO /usr partition? > I would expect most shells will be on this "short list". As part of the > install process the user going to be asked to create some personal ID's, Account creation is a good one as well for the initial setup phase. At least you can log in as user root with a password or as someone else. It makes it feel more like home instead of a black hole. > shell I "need". Obviously I can get by using other shells, but it > only takes about five minutes before I start missing shell features > which I'm pretty used to. The cursor jumping all over the place when pressing tab, very annoying, yes. :-) Someone who has the CD1 handy should tell us how much space is left there before we embark on listing all our favourite toys. Nick Hibma To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 05:25:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA20958 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:25:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA20942 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw157.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw157 [192.23.231.83]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA20644 ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:25:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw157.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA01186; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:25:08 +0200 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> <19980703131053.24570@follo.net> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 03 Jul 1998 14:25:07 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 81 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:01:25PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > BTW, the university in question is one of very few institutions in > > Norway which actually teaches program verification. Unfortunately, few > > students bother to take those courses. In your opinion, does that > > indicate lack of intelligence on the university's part, or on the > > student's part? > > I think this indicate that the university has some correct ideas. I > have, however, not yet met any student of that course who actually > apply their knowledge in day-to-day programming - they regard it as > pure theory. I've been trying very hard to explain to my students the real-world significance of the theory they learn in that course (IN217), and to show them how they can apply what they have learned to their programming, e.g. the importance of data hiding (to maintain the representational invariant of your data) and of good method design (making sure the invariant holds at all exit points), or the relevance of type simulation theory to class design. > Even when I spend ten minutes to fetter out the bugs they've spent > days attempting to find, they won't switch methods. (They tend to > switch after a couple of rounds, though :-) That is at least partially a different problem. Two things we *don't* teach our students in introductory classes are a) reading compiler diagnostics and b) debugging. The unfortunate result is that freshmen (at least those who have no prior programming experience) have a panicky attitude to compiler diagnostics and core dumps. I have attempted to point this out to the Powers that Be more than once. It would seem that people agree that this is a problem, but can't be bothered to do anything about it. > I don't think a course that end up as pure theory is good enough - if > the enthusiasm for the subject isn't communicated to the students, if > they don't end up using what they learn (and I'm not thinking of a > just a single student - I've been working with scores of them) then > something is wrong in how it is communicated. I dont completely agree with this. I think it is necessary for the student to realize that the University is not going to hold his hand and tell him everything he must do (and every book he must read, every exercise he must go through...) The concept of "Ansvar for egen læring" ("Responsibility for your own education") is unfortunately not as well understood by the students as it is by the teaching staff. Students are expected to take interest in their subject, and to familiarize themselves with other aspects of it than just those taught in lectures. Some profs are better than others at pointing this out to their students. > > > Eivind, who just _had_ to rant, and also respect quite a few people > > > from there (after he's had a chance to train them first, of course > > Go ahead and train me. I doubt there's much you could teach me about > > invariants. > > > > DES (who *teaches* bloody invariants at the U of O) > I didn't remember this - sorry. I should have used another example. > It was *not* meant as an insult to you. No personal offense taken. I do however resent the attack against my alma mater. > The only thing I have to offer in the area is experience in how to use > invariants in practice. I don't doubt that both the teachers and the > students at that course have (or end up having) the theory in place. > I just see the students having problems with applying this _at all_ to > a pragmatic world. If you want to, I can buy you a beer and we can > have a real-world talk about what can be done about this :-) I like the idea of a beer :) As to "what can be done about this", I have an idea or two, but they involve a lot of hard work that I'm under no circumstances willing to take on by myself. I do know of a few people who might want to help, though. DES (student, teaching assistant, fraternity president, etc.) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 05:28:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21559 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA21546 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from sunw157.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw157 [192.23.231.83]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA20778 ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:27:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw157.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA01188; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:27:25 +0200 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> <19980703193912.M358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703132039.45789@follo.net> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 03 Jul 1998 14:27:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: Eivind Eklund's message of Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:20:39 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:43:49PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > The decision was based more on political than on techincal > > arguments, and would probably not have been made had not > > Prof. Kirkerud been incapacitated since last december. > Uhm - I don't quite know how to put this, but I don't think he'll come > back. Professor Kirkerud is being buried today :-( Bzzt. Professor Kirkerud was buried at 1 pm last Friday, at which occasion I delivered an address on behalf of the students. A learning experience, but not something I'd want to repeat too often. DES (you should really pay more attention to my footnotes) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 08:26:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12271 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.telecommex.com ([207.48.68.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA12261 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maurice@netsrv.tobunken.go.jp) From: maurice@netsrv.tobunken.go.jp Received: from tara by www.telecommex.com via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/940406.SGI) id BAA02636; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:42:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:42:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199807030642.BAA02636@www.telecommex.com> To: gloria234@aol.com Subject: Are you an Internet Marketer? 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(do not attach check for C.O.D. orders) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 10:12:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24006 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crbowman.erols.com [209.122.47.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24001 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from fermion (fermion [10.0.1.2]) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA13738; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:24:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Message-Id: <199807031824.NAA13738@quark.ChrisBowman.com> X-Sender: crb@quark.ChrisBowman.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 13:10:26 -0400 To: Eivind Eklund From: "Christopher R. Bowman" Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) Cc: Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <19980703131053.24570@follo.net> References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:10 AM 7/3/98 , Eivind Eklund wrote: >[snip] > >I'd use the same language to teach an 11-year-old as a 19+ year old. >I'd preferably choose an interpreted language with fairly small and >regular syntax; TCL, Scheme or Eiffel (the last only if I could run a >'melting ice' environment) seem like good choices. > >[snip snip] Am I the only one who would teach people assembler as a first language, especially young children who are so bright and learn so quickly that they learn entire languages in a matter of a few years? -------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com http://www.ChrisBowman.com/~crb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 12:06:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06760 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:06:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06730 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA17233 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:06:38 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, Christopher R. Bowman wrote: > Am I the only one who would teach people assembler as a first language, No. If you know how things work at the lowest level you have a much better understanding of what high level languages are doing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null Mail from netcom.com blocked until they stop relaying SPAM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 12:10:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07283 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA07278 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:10:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ysBDR-0002xT-00; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:09:49 +0200 Message-ID: <19980703210949.A11364@cityip.co.za> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:09:49 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: "Christopher R. Bowman" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) Mail-Followup-To: "Christopher R. Bowman" , FreeBSD Chat References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> <19980703131053.24570@follo.net> <199807031824.NAA13738@quark.ChrisBowman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807031824.NAA13738@quark.ChrisBowman.com>; from Christopher R. Bowman on Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 01:10:26PM -0400 X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 03 Jul 1998 at 13:10 SAT, Christopher R. Bowman wrote: > > Am I the only one who would teach people assembler as a first language, > especially young children who are so bright and learn so quickly that they > learn entire languages in a matter of a few years? Not a completely insensible suggestion. Back in the "old days" of early 80's home computers, many of us jumped very quickly from BASIC to assembly. I'm still somewhat fluent in Z80. ;-) It might not be a "programming language", in the philosophical sense of the term, but it _does_ teach you how the machine "thinks". -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 12:35:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09878 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from torrentnet.com (bacardi.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09845 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:35:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@torrentnet.com) Received: from chai.torrentnet.com (chai.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.73]) by torrentnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02755; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chai.torrentnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chai.torrentnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06440; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807031935.PAA06440@chai.torrentnet.com> To: David Caldwell Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 15:35:16 -0400 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have a9 year old daughter and an 8 year old son who both have more > curiosity about "how does your computer work Dad???" than I did when I > bought my first TRS-80 model 3.My son at this moment is having some > difficulty with his reading skills and doesn't really try that hard when > I try to coax him into reading to me,so I thought that I would use his > "want to know about a computer" to good use and set him up with a crash > box 486 and a totally different operating system than the windows unit > that he sees me working with. I suspect at this stage your kids are probably looking for a basic answer. Nothing as complicated like an OS. One suggestion is to cobble up a computer simulator. Such a simulator would have the `essential' elements of a computer: an instruction set, memory, disk, keyboard, graphics screen. Its instruction set can be pretty high level -- the `assembly' language can be a subset of Scheme or Logo, with some predefined procedures for disk io, screen io etc. Now your kid can directly type in `machine' instructions and see them executed! If you get ambitious, you can show a picture of the computer on the real screen and allow zooming into various parts to see what changes, allow single stepping and so on. You can show that one or more memory `locations' hold an instruction, show a program counter etc. The graphics screen allows the kid to show interesting results (to impress their friends:-). You can then `give' them more and more sophisticated computers (i.e. simulators) that approximate a real computer more and more faithfully: add interrupts, timers, add context switching, allow `plugging' in io devices etc. Because these are simulated computers, you open up the possibility of hooking together a number of computers. For the same reason you can simulate some really esoteric (or as yet unconceived of) devices! If this is of interest, you can get some ideas on how to do this from "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" by Abelson et al. (MIT press). Seymour Papert's books are also thought provoking when it comes to learning. You may want to check out http://www.legomindstorms.com for some neat robotics stuff you can do with Lego -- another very fun way to learn about computers and lot more! > My theory is that UNIX and operating systems that work like it will > never die and they are fairly complex to understand,they require a fair > amount of reading to be done before trying to make additions or changes > and the rewards for working at it can be immense. > So we will kill several birds with one stone:his reading will improve,he > will learn to type,he will know more about a computer (satisfying his > curiosity),and the knowledge that he gains and the skills he learns will > give him confidence. > Anyone can use DOS and Windows but it take a fair amount of brains to > use UNIX and not crash it while maneuvering thru it. My feeling is that Unix is too complicated for 8 or 9 year olds to get started on computers. Once they learn the basic concepts in a simpler and yet fun environment picking up unix should be easy. Another suggestion is to start them on Scheme or logo. These are both very simple and very powerful languages to learn and you hit all the interesting concepts early on. There is a free mswlogo (logo for m$ windows) by George Mills -- I don't remember the web site. There are some Scheme env. for Windows plus some excellent books that help you learn not just Scheme but how to solve problems. I do think it is more essential to think the right way about programming than to know clunky old technologies like Windows and Unix. > I am at a loss as far as my daughters math skills but any suggestions > there would be helpful. I have always found that the best way to learn something is to _need_ it in a fun project. So figure out what sort of projects she likes. If she likes to build/make things so much the better. Then think of fun (for her) projects that will require her to use her math skills. -- bakul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 13:04:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12012 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:04:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12004 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-233.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.233]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA08758; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:04:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21559; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:04:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199807032004.PAA21559@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Sm rgrav) cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Q: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders In-reply-to: Message from smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Sm rgrav) of "03 Jul 1998 09:19:20 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 15:04:22 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA12005 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Coidan Sm rgrav writes: > > Wouldn't it be a ball to see Microsoft print "This product includes > software developed at the University of California, Berkeley" on the > cover of every single Windows 98 or Windows NT CD? Think you just answered your own question, UCB might not care to be that closely associated (rightly or wrongly) with Microsoft. Who would want to be associated with Microsoft's network layer? Then again, it would be a hoot to see Microsoft squirm. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 13:17:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13650 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:17:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stcgate.statcan.ca (stcgate.statcan.ca [142.206.192.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA13644 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:17:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike.jeays@statcan.ca) Received: (from root@localhost) by stcgate.statcan.ca (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA02767; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:20:37 -0400 Received: from stcinet.statcan.ca(142.206.128.146) by stcgate via smap (V1.3) id sma002671; Fri Jul 3 20:19:29 1998 Received: from statcan.ca by statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA11540; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:17:40 -0400; sender mike.jeays@a.statcan.ca Received: from bora2.statcan.ca (bora2.statcan.ca [142.206.248.251]) by smtpshb.statcan.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA16164; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:18:12 -0400 Received: from smtpsha.statcan.ca by bora2.statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA11774; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:43:12 -0400 ; sender mike.jeays@a.statcan.ca Received: from imap1a.statcan.ca by smtpsha.statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA00880; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:36:12 -0400 ; Sender mike.jeays@a.statcan.ca X-Internal-ID: 359C39D10000112E Received: from a.statcan.ca (142.205.168.30) by imap1a.statcan.ca (NPlex 2.0.106); 3 Jul 1998 15:45:38 -0400 Message-ID: <359D352E.D8E46E45@a.statcan.ca> Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 15:46:55 -0400 From: Mike Jeays Organization: Statistics Canada/Statistique Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Christopher R. Bowman" CC: Eivind Eklund , "Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> <199807031824.NAA13738@quark.ChrisBowman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org They would probably learn assembler as quickly as any of the 'regular' 3 GLs - once they get the idea of a register being a sort of pigeon-hole that you can put a number into, I think a bright child would make very rapid progress. Whether teaching them assembler would be a 'good thing' or not, I am reluctant to say... I agree that a language with a clean, regular syntax, and which enables the more skilled to progress to more advanced ideas, is ideal. I personally favour TK/TCL - the speed with which you can get real windowed applications running is almost without equal, and there is a smooth gradation from trying elementary statements to building complex windowed apps. But aren't we off topic - the original question was about OSs, not programming languages? I recently was visited by a nephew and niece (18 and 16 respectively) who have never seen a GUI other than Windows. I showed them my FreeBSD/fvwm setup, and they were able to use it easily, and of course found Netscape completely familiar. They seemed quite surprised there was anything other than Windows... Christopher R. Bowman wrote: > At 07:10 AM 7/3/98 , Eivind Eklund wrote: > >[snip] > > > >I'd use the same language to teach an 11-year-old as a 19+ year old. > >I'd preferably choose an interpreted language with fairly small and > >regular syntax; TCL, Scheme or Eiffel (the last only if I could run a > >'melting ice' environment) seem like good choices. > > > >[snip snip] > > Am I the only one who would teach people assembler as a first language, > especially young children who are so bright and learn so quickly that they > learn entire languages in a matter of a few years? > -------- > Christopher R. Bowman > crb@ChrisBowman.com > http://www.ChrisBowman.com/~crb > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 13:57:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17446 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:57:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [204.27.67.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17428 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@bone.nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (localhost.communique.net [127.0.0.1]) by bone.nectar.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA08761; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:55:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807032055.PAA08761@bone.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <19980703094238.T14070@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199807022218.RAA02787@bone.nectar.com> <19980703094238.T14070@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Jolitz book cancelled? To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 15:55:47 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Yes, it was a port of 4.3BSD Net/2 to the 80386 (called 386BSD). It was previously documented in a series of Dr. Dobb's Journal articles. It was interesting to me as it focused on issues in porting to the 386. Jacques Vidrine On 3 July 1998 at 9:42, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 2 July 1998 at 17:18:25 -0500, Jacques Vidrine wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I was looking forward to Volume 2 of the Jolitz' ``Source Code > > Secrets'' series, but it seems it has been cancelled. Does anyone > > know about the details of this? i.e. I wonder if it has been > > permanently cancelled, or put on hold, or what. > > I don't know anything about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it > would be permanent. The first book didn't get much of a welcome, and > it describes in minute detail an obsolete BSD version (IIRC based on > 4.3BSD Net/2, not 4.4BSD). I'd guess that the publisher was pretty > disappointed in the sales. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNZ1FUzeRhT8JRySpAQGpjgQAyS9BUT17HLSvq4wLgRQMs1NLYXJ9ZsPv Zgm3AXbQkN3y2CadhzAgkE1yVPcZpnPPpVsSCvMYbvnBFEcAifZOdHKDQ7BS6Dz8 hQljc08YWHvlM+qazP8Qp6iFSV0yWmjo/0tU+uC/oL4ka7cjtAj+F4/qGMPD4Ldn FmmaYhlGlTM= =eX9m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 15:40:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26328 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:40:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26307; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:40:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807032240.PAA26307@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Q: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders In-Reply-To: <199807032004.PAA21559@nospam.hiwaay.net> from David Kelly at "Jul 3, 98 03:04:22 pm" To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Cc: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > Dag-Erling Coidan Sm rgrav writes: > > > > Wouldn't it be a ball to see Microsoft print "This product includes > > software developed at the University of California, Berkeley" on the > > cover of every single Windows 98 or Windows NT CD? > > Think you just answered your own question, UCB might not care to be > that closely associated (rightly or wrongly) with Microsoft. Who would > want to be associated with Microsoft's network layer? > > Then again, it would be a hoot to see Microsoft squirm. remember what ms did to stacker. UCB would be wasting its money going after ms, as a practical matter. perhaps, once the doj suit gets rolling and ms is is "deep litigation"... wait for a critical time in the suit...then file. squeeze when they are already in trouble and snuff 'em. my....that's rather extreme, isnt it ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 15:41:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26397 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1579.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26387 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:40:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.my.domain) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02666; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:52:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980703145257.B2598@zappo> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:52:58 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4ogv7gsne=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Fri=2C_Jul_03=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_12:01:25PM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:01:25PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Would *you* teach an eleven-year old > to program with a compiled language? Of course you wouldn't. You'd > choose an interpreted language where subtle typos don't shoot your > leg off. I disagree. I would teach an interpreted language, but not because of the "subtle-typo-shooting-your-leg-off" reason, but because an interpreted language is a great way to stretch your mind. Some of the things you can are really wicked, but also non-obvious. We would never let anyone write a self-modifying compiled program now-a-days, but all of that and more is allowed for interpreted programs. Yes, self-modifying programs are bad style, but from the perspective of _instruction_, they can be an excellent exercise. Of course, they'll have to learn standard C syntax sometime. And C seems to have a kind of romantic cultural attraction for a lot of kids who know nothing about programming. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 17:05:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09201 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:05:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09182 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:05:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA06943; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:34:53 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980704093453.U358@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:34:53 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jacques Vidrine Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jolitz book cancelled? References: <199807022218.RAA02787@bone.nectar.com> <19980703094238.T14070@freebie.lemis.com> <199807032055.PAA08761@bone.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807032055.PAA08761@bone.nectar.com>; from Jacques Vidrine on Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 03:55:47PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 3 July 1998 at 15:55:47 -0500, Jacques Vidrine wrote: > On 3 July 1998 at 9:42, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 2 July 1998 at 17:18:25 -0500, Jacques Vidrine wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I was looking forward to Volume 2 of the Jolitz' ``Source Code >>> Secrets'' series, but it seems it has been cancelled. Does anyone >>> know about the details of this? i.e. I wonder if it has been >>> permanently cancelled, or put on hold, or what. >> >> I don't know anything about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it >> would be permanent. The first book didn't get much of a welcome, and >> it describes in minute detail an obsolete BSD version (IIRC based on >> 4.3BSD Net/2, not 4.4BSD). I'd guess that the publisher was pretty >> disappointed in the sales. > > Yes, it was a port of 4.3BSD Net/2 to the 80386 (called > 386BSD). Sure. This is the ancestor of FreeBSD. FreeBSD (and NetBSD) grew out of personality conflicts with Bill Jolitz. > It was previously documented in a series of Dr. Dobb's Journal > articles. It was interesting to me as it focused on issues in > porting to the 386. I read the articles at the time, and I browsed through the book when I saw it at a bookshop. I didn't get the feeling that there was that much overlap. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 17:32:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14187 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [204.27.67.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA14161 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:32:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@bone.nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (localhost.communique.net [127.0.0.1]) by bone.nectar.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA09962; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:31:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807040031.TAA09962@bone.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <19980704093453.U358@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199807022218.RAA02787@bone.nectar.com> <19980703094238.T14070@freebie.lemis.com> <199807032055.PAA08761@bone.nectar.com> <19980704093453.U358@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Jolitz book cancelled? To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 19:31:14 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On 4 July 1998 at 9:34, Greg Lehey wrote: [snip] > Sure. This is the ancestor of FreeBSD. FreeBSD (and NetBSD) grew out > of personality conflicts with Bill Jolitz. Hmm, on the one had I do not wish to dig up any ill feelings, but on the other I'd be interested in the history of these groups. [snip] > I read the articles at the time, and I browsed through the book when I > saw it at a bookshop. I didn't get the feeling that there was that > much overlap. > > Greg Though I read some of the Dr. Dobb's Journal articles at the time that they were published, they were mostly out of my reach at the time and I don't retain their content. Jacques Vidrine -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNZ130jeRhT8JRySpAQHRjgP+PwswVOrqE4y5EpYsooXKALFxvvO0i53b zN8XVPfkY+wh28BqvZXIm/XoegiuO+mHHHnWye5ok82l8MhqXJckVewPewyVOP2D TjZm6g3RzR+pnfDMON/ICrdu3LAkz0kOxbaX7sqB03KWEz/d9W6TRE3fVm6+IGk/ J4GqpZUJr6w= =NLYZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 19:57:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28973 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28953 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05297; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:56:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA05999; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807040256.TAA05999@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) In-Reply-To: <199807031824.NAA13738@quark.ChrisBowman.com> from "Christopher R. Bowman" at "Jul 3, 98 01:10:26 pm" To: crb@ChrisBowman.com (Christopher R. Bowman) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: eivind@yes.no, smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Christopher R. Bowman: > At 07:10 AM 7/3/98 , Eivind Eklund wrote: > >[snip] > > > >I'd use the same language to teach an 11-year-old as a 19+ year old. > >I'd preferably choose an interpreted language with fairly small and > >regular syntax; TCL, Scheme or Eiffel (the last only if I could run a > >'melting ice' environment) seem like good choices. > > > >[snip snip] > > Am I the only one who would teach people assembler as a first language, > especially young children who are so bright and learn so quickly that they > learn entire languages in a matter of a few years? I'm watching this discussion with considerable interest since my 32-month-old daughter is very interested in my computer. So far she's learned virtually all the ASCII character set, and in another few years I think that she will be ready for much more. What's the consensus on BASIC? Or FORTRAN? xcoral has a C interpreter that could be broken out... . Bright children really do absorb things quickly; just how quickly has amazed me no end! gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 20:00:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29238 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:00:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29230 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA18822; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:00:37 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980704130033.12105@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:00:33 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: David Caldwell , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:45:14PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:45:14PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 2 July 1998 at 18:09:15 -0700, David Caldwell wrote: > > Hello, > > My name is David Caldwell and I have a question that is sure to generate > > some curiosity amongst those who read it (as well as some laughs). > > I would like to know if this is a "good" operating system to start a > > young mind in learning to use a computer? The operating system that they are motivated to use. You show them a range of what is available, and give them the perspective required to make a choice. In the process you might find out a little more about what their real motivations are. Tell them it's a temporary system for trying out, stand by to make up for any educational deficiencies in the chosen operating system, and be ready to switch to another after a suitable period of learning (about the children and about yourself, as well as about the operating system). > > Here is what I am proposing so that you will get a better understanding > > of what I am asking for. > > I have a9 year old daughter and an 8 year old son who both have more > > curiosity about "how does your computer work Dad???" than I did when I > > bought my first TRS-80 model 3. It's hard to know what children really mean when they say things like that. Often they don't have a clear idea themselves until they're given more information and experiences. Could be that the strongest part of the motivation is one of the parts that the child cannot articulate: they want to have an interest in common with an admired adult, and perhaps by doing so they will earn a place beside him while he engages in the activity which currently separates him from them. If this is the case, to put them in the corner with a unix box studying manuals while you "work" with windoze would be the cruelest thing you could do. Consider the number of times you, as a parent, have played sports you detest, sat through disgusting TV shows, driven the family to noisy uncomfortable places, put on a silly hat, or read mind-numbingly stupid stories in order to enter your children's world. Why wouldn't they want to do the same to enter yours? Children have different timing. To harness their interest they need quick rewards and short range goals. Every activity is potentially frustrating to a small growing human, and even the easiest and most rewarding task will teach them about consistent effort and waiting for delayed rewards. There is no need to impose a large extra dose on them. > > My son at this moment is having some > > difficulty with his reading skills and doesn't really try that hard when > > I try to coax him into reading to me,so I thought that I would use his > > "want to know about a computer" to good use and set him up with a crash > > box 486 and a totally different operating system than the windows unit > > that he sees me working with. I don't know about children, but when adults are learning to read for the first time what they need is success, success, and more success. They want stuff they can read and enjoy or benefit from fairly quickly, not reading matter that reminds them of their deficiencies and makes the reading experience memorable for its unpleasantness or humiliation. Surely children have these feelings too. If children are similar, reading computer manuals in order to learn would be a massive turn-off for both reading and computing. > > I am at a loss as far as my daughters math skills but any suggestions > > there would be helpful. I have taught basic mathematics to adults and children who needed special help. In nearly every case, their main problem was a history of failure with mathematics and the belief that they will always fail in the future. It takes a great many experiences of success in the absence of failure over a period of time to correct their view of their relationship with the topic. This is very hard work on the part of the teacher or helper, but when followed to its completion you generally end up with someone who is so impressed with their own ability to succeed that it's damn hard to get them to stop talking about numbers! It is common for children who have been given self esteem through solving their maths blockage to become better at mathematics than their peers. Not only do they know they can do it, they have pride and motivation that comes from within. When approaching computers, look carefully at the balance between failure and success as viewed from the learner's perspective. Control this balance and you control learning, motivation, and your own credibility with them when it is time to offer advice that seems contrary to their current limited experience. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 20:58:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05079 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:58:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05073 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:58:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA09452; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807040357.UAA09452@implode.root.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: Jacques Vidrine , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jolitz book cancelled? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Jul 1998 09:34:53 +0930." <19980704093453.U358@freebie.lemis.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 20:57:56 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Yes, it was a port of 4.3BSD Net/2 to the 80386 (called >> 386BSD). > >Sure. This is the ancestor of FreeBSD. FreeBSD (and NetBSD) grew out >of personality conflicts with Bill Jolitz. I'd say that is stretching the truth just a bit too much. You might be able to argue that being the case with NetBSD (cgd's arguments with Bill being well known and public), but "personality" conflicts with Bill were certainly not what FreeBSD grew out of. In fact, we gave Bill every last chance to lead and he chose not to, but we certainly didn't form in spite of him or due to any argument with him. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 21:09:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06726 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:09:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA06721 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:09:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA14060; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:39:43 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980704133943.Z358@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:39:43 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: dg@root.com Cc: Jacques Vidrine , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jolitz book cancelled? References: <19980704093453.U358@freebie.lemis.com> <199807040357.UAA09452@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807040357.UAA09452@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:57:56PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 3 July 1998 at 20:57:56 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >>> Yes, it was a port of 4.3BSD Net/2 to the 80386 (called >>> 386BSD). >> >> Sure. This is the ancestor of FreeBSD. FreeBSD (and NetBSD) grew out >> of personality conflicts with Bill Jolitz. > > I'd say that is stretching the truth just a bit too much. Well, I did say that I wasn't the best person to ask, but I think you're misinterpreting my statement. > You might be able to argue that being the case with NetBSD (cgd's > arguments with Bill being well known and public), but "personality" > conflicts with Bill were certainly not what FreeBSD grew out of. In > fact, we gave Bill every last chance to lead and he chose not to, > but we certainly didn't form in spite of him or due to any argument > with him. My understanding was that you gave him every chance to fix bugs and improve the product, including supplying the bug fixes, but he chose not to. As a result, and somewhat reluctantly if I recall, you decided that the only way to get past the patch kit was to start up your own distribution. How am I doing? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 21:33:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08762 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:33:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08754 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:33:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10386; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807040433.VAA10386@implode.root.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: Jacques Vidrine , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jolitz book cancelled? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Jul 1998 13:39:43 +0930." <19980704133943.Z358@freebie.lemis.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 21:33:57 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> You might be able to argue that being the case with NetBSD (cgd's >> arguments with Bill being well known and public), but "personality" >> conflicts with Bill were certainly not what FreeBSD grew out of. In >> fact, we gave Bill every last chance to lead and he chose not to, >> but we certainly didn't form in spite of him or due to any argument >> with him. > >My understanding was that you gave him every chance to fix bugs and >improve the product, including supplying the bug fixes, but he chose >not to. As a result, and somewhat reluctantly if I recall, you >decided that the only way to get past the patch kit was to start up >your own distribution. How am I doing? The patch kit was getting too large (over 24MB of patches) so we needed to organize and manage the stuff with a source control system. We formed a group to produce "386BSD Interim-0.1.5" while we waited for Bill to integrate the appropriate patches and release the next official release of 386BSD. Bill agreed to this course of action and everything was fine...until one day he decided he didn't want us calling it "386BSD", apparantly because he thought it would confuse people and/or tarnish his baby. Since he owned the trademark, we had no choice but to comply. We could have chosen to just say "oh well, we give up", but instead we figured that Bill was never going to release another 386BSD and decided to release our own BSD, and that became FreeBSD 1.0. I'm conspicuously leaving out NetBSD in this explaination as that was too painful for me to mention. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 22:54:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14849 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14786 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:53:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02368; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 23:53:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 23:53:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807040553.XAA02368@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) From: Wes Peters To: caldwell_david@hotmail.com, grog@lemis.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id WAA14794 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Caldwell recently asked: > I would like to know if this is a "good" operating system to start a > young mind in learning to use a computer? > > I have a9 year old daughter and an 8 year old son who both have more > curiosity about "how does your computer work Dad???" than I did when I > bought my first TRS-80 model 3.My son at this moment is having some > difficulty with his reading skills and doesn't really try that hard when > I try to coax him into reading to me,so I thought that I would use his > "want to know about a computer" to good use and set him up with a crash > box 486 and a totally different operating system than the windows unit > that he sees me working with. > > My theory is that UNIX and operating systems that work like it will > never die and they are fairly complex to understand,they require a fair > amount of reading to be done before trying to make additions or changes > and the rewards for working at it can be immense. > > So we will kill several birds with one stone:his reading will improve,he > will learn to type,he will know more about a computer (satisfying his > curiosity),and the knowledge that he gains and the skills he learns will > give him confidence. So far, your reasoning seems flawless to me, if he will do it. Some brain-dead PC dwweb "industry pundit" once described UNIX as the largest adventure game ever created. If your children are curious about how a computer really works, and are willing to poke around and look for themselves, a UNIX system could be a really great start for them. > Anyone can use DOS and Windows but it take a fair amount of brains to > use UNIX and not crash it while maneuvering thru it. This is a common misconception for those who don't know UNIX. If you don't give your children access to the root, or super-user, account, it will be nearly impossible for them to crash it, ESPECIALLY FreeBSD. Short of hitting the power switch or the reboot button, there isn't much they can do. That would be a good challenge for them: figure out how to break into the system and force it to reboot without resorting to hardware, like the reset button. > Am I barking up the wrong tree or should I go for it....any input would > be most helpful and from more than one source would be > appreciated...especially one with kids. > I am at a loss as far as my daughters math skills but any suggestions > there would be helpful. I had a couple of computer programming classes in high school and one in college, all based on batch-oriented systems. Then I regained my senses, moved back home, and started taking classes at the local state college, now a mid-sized university. They had a wonderful array of interactive computers, including a DEC-10. I changed my major to computer science, and the computer science department dutifully fulfilled my destiny by buying a very early UNIX-based microcomputer. To me, learning UNIX was never hard in the same way that learning to sail was never hard. There were (and are) an immense number of things to learn, but there was always a logical next step to learn. I encountered this system only a few months after teaching myself C using a freeware compiler on a DEC machine at the college. You just cannot imagine my delight in learning that all of the programming interfaces for the system were exposed by reading the header files in /usr/include, and by looking through the on-line man pages. If your son is genuinely interested in how a computer works, giving him access to a UNIX system WITH THE SOURCE CODE ON-LINE is going to satisfy any amount of curiosity he may have. I do, however, have another suggestion: have you considered getting a copy of Minix, along with the textbook associated with it? I ask only because Minix was designed by its author, Dr. Tanenbaum, to be an operating system suitable for teaching about operating systems. It is not (nearly) as functional as FreeBSD, but it is also significantly smaller and therefore easier to comprehend. Minix does come with full source code for the operating system and all of the utilities except the C compiler, which is distributed in binary only. I do not know if Minix and the related text, "Operating System Design and Implementation" if memory serves, are currently in print or not, but it bears looking into. It should run just fine on your 486; my introduction to Minix came on "turbo-XT" class machines with 8 and 10 Mhz 8088s. ;^) My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) replying: % Interesting question. I gave up with my daughter (I just didn't have % the time and patience to explain every detail). Still, she seems to % be getting the hang of it. % % About the biggest thing I'm realizing from having a house full of % computer semi-literates is that the biggest stumbling block is the % ability to work with files, including editing. I'd recommend that % your kids learn those concepts early on. This is a good point. One of the traditional hurdles to UNIX acceptance has been the lack of editors, or the plethora of editors, depending on who you ask. Pick one that seems simple, teach both of your children how to write a simple letter using it, and let them go on their own from there. I will go so far as to suggest that there are a couple of editors based on the X Window System that are somewhat more approachable than command-oriented editors in UNIX. In particular, aXe (an X editor) is quite simple, and reasonably fast on limited hardware like your 486. The X Window System release that comes on the FreeBSD CD-ROMs, XFree86, is quite good - it's stable, fast, and relatively easy to configure. That, along with a simple default configuration, may go a long way towards taking the scare out of editing UNIX files. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 3 23:43:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17125 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 23:43:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17119; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 23:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02488; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:42:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:42:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807040642.AAA02488@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: A Little Cancer Patient need Your Attention From: Wes Peters To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com Cc: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, mike@smith.net.au, wheelman@nuc.net, steve.a@cableinet.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <199807021915.MAA25347@usr06.primenet.com> References: <199807021915.MAA25347@usr06.primenet.com> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id XAA17120 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Terry Lambert (tlambert@primenet.com) saying: % In any case, the net upshot should be "do the right thing the right % way", or as Seneca, the stoic philosopher from the 4th decate AD % stated in his _Letters From A Stoic_: % % Never substitute activity for action. % % If you expect to have to live with the consequences of your actions, % then these are words to live by. Terry is right, there are very few organizations who take the time to consider the consequences of their code. A partial reason for this is the general assumption the consequences will be "some customer will get pissed, but won't be able to return the goods because he doesn't have the power/it'll be too difficult/nobody ever does that." My first job out of school, I worked for one of the companies that has specialized in considering the consequences of computer code: Logicon, now a division of Northrup-Grumman. My first job involved analyzing the math library used by the Fortran compiler that produced the Minuteman II targeting program, PROVING that it produced mathematically correct code. My second job was as the point man on the team that tested the command and control system for Peacekeeper (the missile formerly known as MX). You have no idea what an education in RESPONSIBILITY it was to consider the consequences of some code screwing up and accidentally launching one of these beasts. Our boss, a wonderful manager named Mary Ann Hayes, did an incredible job of keeping us focused on the job at hand while gently reminding us of the importance of our work, on how critical it was to be absolutely thorough. It has given me quite a different mindset throughout my career; I've often been "pulled off" a problem by management when they decided I had solved it thoroughly enough and I wanted to continue pursuing it. With experience, I've learned to balance my reactions somewhat better and to ask how far I should go in solving a problem, although I'd often prefer to take the solution clear to the bitter end. I am certainly not claiming to be perfect, but I have noticed a different mindset amongst coworkers who have this kind of military background; it isn't a greater attention to quality so much as a different way of looking at it. It's not such much "how much do I have to do to keep this from crashing" as it is "what's the worst thing that could happen if this screws up, and how much do I have to do to prevent THAT from keeping me awake at night?" -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 00:04:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18163 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18158 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:04:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02533; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:03:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:03:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807040703.BAA02533@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Q: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders From: Wes Peters To: jasone@canonware.com, smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA18159 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded (Dag-Erling Coidan Sm?rgrav) (smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) saying: % Jason Evans writes: % > As the standard FBSD license reads, it seems to me that anyone who % > distributes a binary-only FreeBSD-based product is legally required to % > print reams of copyright notices in the documentation. That sucks for the % > distributor and for the customers. % % It's there for a reason. I can't understand why UCB hasn't sued the % pants off Microsoft yet... The monkeys in Redmond are shipping % software under Berkeley license without including the proper magic % incantations in their advertising material or documentation. % % Wouldn't it be a ball to see Microsoft print "This product includes % software developed at the University of California, Berkeley" on the % cover of every single Windows 98 or Windows NT CD? You'll find exactly those kinds of copyright notices on the Intel Internet Station, the little dial-up router I worked on last year. You find them there, and on the "Legal Stuff" web page in the user interface, only because I put them into the web page myself, and raised such a stink about the lack of notices in the documentation and got the legal department involved, over the strenuous objections of the doc writer. To their credit, the opinion from the legal department was rendered in mere hours, and boiled down to "put the copyright notices into the documentation or don't ship the product." We researched copyright notices as diligently as possible in the time we had, given that Wind River Systems had removed the original copyright notices from much of the code, and credited UC Berkely, CMU, and the ISC. Why Microsoft cannot do the same is beyond me. Somebody oughtta take'em to court. Maybe Scott McNealy would loan us the bucks, on contingency? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 00:06:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18379 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18372; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02545; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:06:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:06:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807040706.BAA02545@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Q: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders From: Wes Peters To: dkelly@hiwaay.net, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <199807032240.PAA26307@hub.freebsd.org> References: <199807032240.PAA26307@hub.freebsd.org> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA18374 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Jonathan M. Bresler (jmb@freebsd.org) saying: % remember what ms did to stacker. I can just see it now: Bill Gates buys UC Berkeley, renames it "MS-University." -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 00:08:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18685 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:08:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1597.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18675 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.my.domain) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA01101; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 03:02:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980704030202.A875@zappo> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 03:02:02 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Sue Blake , Greg Lehey Cc: David Caldwell , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980704130033.12105@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980704130033.12105@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:00:33PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:00:33PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: [...] > more information and experiences. Could be that the strongest part of the > motivation is one of the parts that the child cannot articulate: they > want to have an interest in common with an admired adult, and perhaps by Whenever one gets into things like this it can become fairly complicated. There's an equal and, in a sense, opposite, from the above, attraction to computers. That funny looking autoexec.bat that clears the screen and prints-out in flashing red letters "Only Johnny may use this computer! If you are not Johnny, go AWAY!" can be an absolutely amazing power-trip for a kid who's probably still used to having his/her parents make his/her supper. I never asked my dad more than a few questions, but I don't think I will ever entirely forget when I asked why my program didn't work and he answered that he didn't know. The feeling of not only writing _my_own_thing_ (worthwhile on its own), but doing so at a level beyond that of my father was a pretty addictive feeling. It's kind-of like having your own bedroom that you don't have to keep clean and that you can do with whatever you want. And yet, at the same time, I'd agree that the above is mixed with a desire to have something "in common with an admired adult". > Surely children have these feelings too. If children are similar, reading > computer manuals in order to learn would be a massive turn-off for both > reading and computing. Besides that, I wouldn't point any kid at our manpages and expect them to learn how to write well. Most are artificially formal (why do people feel that using the word "which" gives their writing some kind of more formal and technical status?) and a couple are just downright bad. [Don't get me wrong! I love manpages! Just don't bother trying to learn how to write a love letter by reading manpages... ;-] > > > I am at a loss as far as my daughters math skills but any suggestions > > > there would be helpful. > > I have taught basic mathematics to adults and children who needed special Hah. I knew I smelt a teacher after the first para of your mail. Evil! Evil! Evil! ;-) I suppose it really depends what and how these math skills are lacking. Too often we teach math (and science) facts. Or, more correctly, we may teach both facts and theory, but we only test the _facts_. Parents can only judge what they're given, so naturally they encourage their kids to get high test scores. Correspondingly, kids put effort into learning these facts. This is something that stays with them for a long time. There are few things more beautiful than hearing someone say with delight "Oh, I get it! That's so cool!" when they finally _understand_ something (especially if they happen to be particularly sexy ;). At the same time, it's altogether frightening that this is a novel experience for someone who is almost 20 years old. In grade three they might be teaching long division. Put one number here, put one number there. So long as this number is bigger than that number, keep on writing numbers up there. Anything left is the remainder. Well, WTF is the remainder!?! How many students even know that, in _real_world_ terms, let alone why the process as a whole works?? Basically, the fact that this young girl is lacking some math skills (where "skills" probably equates to "marks") may be quite unimportant. I don't have enough information to judge in this case. :-) :-) Essentially, I agree with you [Sue], but I don't think that an evaluation solely in terms of success vs. failure entirely does justice to the topic. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 00:28:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20136 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA20131 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:28:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA15378; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:58:18 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980704165817.D358@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:58:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , jasone@canonware.com, smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders) References: <199807040703.BAA02533@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807040703.BAA02533@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:03:39AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 4 July 1998 at 1:03:39 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > My hidden microphone recorded (Dag-Erling Coidan Sm?rgrav) > (smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) saying: > >> Jason Evans writes: >>> As the standard FBSD license reads, it seems to me that anyone who >>> distributes a binary-only FreeBSD-based product is legally required to >>> print reams of copyright notices in the documentation. That sucks for the >>> distributor and for the customers. >> >> It's there for a reason. I can't understand why UCB hasn't sued the >> pants off Microsoft yet... The monkeys in Redmond are shipping >> software under Berkeley license without including the proper magic >> incantations in their advertising material or documentation. >> >> Wouldn't it be a ball to see Microsoft print "This product includes >> software developed at the University of California, Berkeley" on the >> cover of every single Windows 98 or Windows NT CD? > > You'll find exactly those kinds of copyright notices on the Intel > Internet Station, the little dial-up router I worked on last year. > You find them there, and on the "Legal Stuff" web page in the user > interface, only because I put them into the web page myself, and > raised such a stink about the lack of notices in the documentation > and got the legal department involved, over the strenuous objections > of the doc writer. To their credit, the opinion from the legal > department was rendered in mere hours, and boiled down to "put the > copyright notices into the documentation or don't ship the product." :-) About 2 years ago I did a short contract for Siemens-Nixdorf in Germany. One of the things I did was some modifications to syslogd, and I noticed to my horror that they had removed the copyright. OK, I was supposed to fix it, so I fixed that as well. After I had left, one of my colleagues (Jürgen Krause, one of the authors of the original FreeBSD ISDN package, with whom, just by chance, I was working) called me up and said "Greg, something seems to have gone wrong with your commit. You have the FreeBSD syslogd in there instead". I don't know if it's still in there, or whether they took it out again. > We researched copyright notices as diligently as possible in the > time we had, given that Wind River Systems had removed the original > copyright notices from much of the code, and credited UC Berkely, > CMU, and the ISC. > > Why Microsoft cannot do the same is beyond me. Somebody oughtta > take'em to court. Maybe Scott McNealy would loan us the bucks, > on contingency? ;^) Now if there's one thing that *really* pisses me off, it's that nobody has stopped Microsoft from shipping Internet Exploder because it is in breach of contract. I would have hoped that Sun could say "ship it with correct Java, ship it without Java, or don't ship it". If they can't get that done, I don't see that they can help us in what is primarily a matter of recognition. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 00:51:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21797 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:51:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from roma.coe.ufrj.br (jonny@roma.coe.ufrj.br [146.164.53.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21789 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:51:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonny@jonny.eng.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by roma.coe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA15380; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 04:50:35 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199807040750.EAA15380@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? In-Reply-To: <359B333C.EDE413AE@uk.radan.com> from Mark Ovens at "Jul 2, 98 08:14:04 am" To: marko@uk.radan.com (Mark Ovens) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 04:50:35 -0300 (EST) Cc: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com, grog@lemis.com, fullermd@futuresouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org #define quoting(Mark Ovens) // > A. No, but we have done numerous taste tests on blindfolded volunteers // > who have also had 250 micrograms of LSD-25 administered beforehand. // > 35% of the volunteers said that FreeBSD tasted sort of orange, whereas // > Linux tasted like purple haze...... // // This reminds me of the following which I read somewhere.... // // "Two major products to emerge from Berkley are Unix and LSD. // We do not believe this to be coincidental" Searching a little over Altavista found this to me: http://onishi2.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~staka/cosh.txt BTW: A you can see, I'm stealing that for a tagline for a while. :) Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and Unix. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." -- Jeremy S. Anderson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 01:02:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA23439 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:02:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA23428 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:02:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02757; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 02:02:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 02:02:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807040802.CAA02757@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) From: Wes Peters To: kline@tera.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <199807040256.TAA05999@athena.tera.com> References: <199807040256.TAA05999@athena.tera.com> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id BAA23433 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Gary Kline (kline@tera.com) saying: % I'm watching this discussion with considerable interest % since my 32-month-old daughter is very interested in my % computer. So far she's learned virtually all the ASCII % character set, and in another few years I think that % she will be ready for much more. % % What's the consensus on BASIC? Or FORTRAN? xcoral has % a C interpreter that could be broken out... . % % Bright children really do absorb things quickly; just % how quickly has amazed me no end! My daughter is 27 months old next week, and is already a skilled computer user. She has 3 programs on CD-ROM of her own, and gets another one every 2 or 3 months. She can load the CD herself, and has become quite proficient at using the keyboard-driven programs. We bought her first, called "Baby Rom," last fall when she was 18 months old. She learned the entire alphabet in 9 weeks, and the numbers 1-9 in another 2 weeks. Since then, we've added the Fisher-Price Barnyard CD. She can now tell you what kinds of food all of the common barnyard animals eat, how plants grow from seeds, and the names of the common barnyard animals and their babies. She's still not quite "getting" the use of the mouse, though she's willing to try. She enjoys typing and identifying the letters she makes, and can type any letter you ask her to. I think I'll wait till after her third birthday, then find a good Logo implementation. If there isn't one already, it shouldn't be too difficult to create one, it's a pretty simple language. Anyone around here have a yacc-able grammer for Logo? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 09:45:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16913 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:45:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16908 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:45:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (ferengal-1-45.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.128.45]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id LAA09687; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:45:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA02473; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:45:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980704164544.ZM2472@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:45:44 +0000 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters "Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!)" (Jul 3, 11:53pm) References: <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <199807040553.XAA02368@softweyr.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Wes Peters , caldwell_david@hotmail.com, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jul 3, 11:53pm, Wes Peters wrote: > Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) > David Caldwell recently asked: > > > I would like to know if this is a "good" operating system to start a > > young mind in learning to use a computer? > > > > I have a9 year old daughter and an 8 year old son who both have more > > curiosity about "how does your computer work Dad???" than I did when I > > bought my first TRS-80 model 3.My son at this moment is having some > > difficulty with his reading skills and doesn't really try that hard when > > I try to coax him into reading to me,so I thought that I would use his > > "want to know about a computer" to good use and set him up with a crash > > box 486 and a totally different operating system than the windows unit > > that he sees me working with. > > > > My theory is that UNIX and operating systems that work like it will > > never die and they are fairly complex to understand,they require a fair > > amount of reading to be done before trying to make additions or changes > > and the rewards for working at it can be immense. > > > > So we will kill several birds with one stone:his reading will improve,he > > will learn to type,he will know more about a computer (satisfying his > > curiosity),and the knowledge that he gains and the skills he learns will > > give him confidence. > > So far, your reasoning seems flawless to me, if he will do it. Some > brain-dead PC dwweb "industry pundit" once described UNIX as the largest adventure > game ever created. If your children are curious about how a computer really > works, and are willing to poke around and look for themselves, a UNIX system > could be a really great start for them. > > > Anyone can use DOS and Windows but it take a fair amount of brains to > > use UNIX and not crash it while maneuvering thru it. > > This is a common misconception for those who don't know UNIX. If you don't > give your children access to the root, or super-user, account, it will be > nearly impossible for them to crash it, ESPECIALLY FreeBSD. Short of hitting > the power switch or the reboot button, there isn't much they can do. That > would be a good challenge for them: figure out how to break into the system > and force it to reboot without resorting to hardware, like the reset button. > > > Am I barking up the wrong tree or should I go for it....any input would > > be most helpful and from more than one source would be > > appreciated...especially one with kids. > > I am at a loss as far as my daughters math skills but any suggestions > > there would be helpful. > > I had a couple of computer programming classes in high school and one in > college, all based on batch-oriented systems. Then I regained my senses, > moved back home, and started taking classes at the local state college, now a > mid-sized university. They had a wonderful array of interactive computers, > including a DEC-10. I changed my major to computer science, and the computer > science department dutifully fulfilled my destiny by buying a very early > UNIX-based microcomputer. > > To me, learning UNIX was never hard in the same way that learning to sail was > never hard. There were (and are) an immense number of things to learn, but > there was always a logical next step to learn. I encountered this system only > a few months after teaching myself C using a freeware compiler on a DEC > machine at the college. You just cannot imagine my delight in learning that > all of the programming interfaces for the system were exposed by reading the > header files in /usr/include, and by looking through the on-line man pages. > > If your son is genuinely interested in how a computer works, giving him access > to a UNIX system WITH THE SOURCE CODE ON-LINE is going to satisfy any amount > of curiosity he may have. > > > I do, however, have another suggestion: have you considered getting a copy of > Minix, along with the textbook associated with it? I ask only because Minix > was designed by its author, Dr. Tanenbaum, to be an operating system suitable > for teaching about operating systems. It is not (nearly) as functional as > FreeBSD, but it is also significantly smaller and therefore easier to > comprehend. Minix does come with full source code for the operating system > and all of the utilities except the C compiler, which is distributed in binary > only. > > I do not know if Minix and the related text, "Operating System Design and > Implementation" if memory serves, are currently in print or not, but it bears > looking into. It should run just fine on your 486; my introduction to Minix > came on "turbo-XT" class machines with 8 and 10 Mhz 8088s. ;^) > It is still available in a second addition that includes Minix on a CDROM. See . There is also a Minux web site, can't recall the URL but a quick search will get it for you. Minix has a small footprint, doesn't require much in the way of resources, and I believe that there are some downloadable apps available on the web page. Good luck Frank > > My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) replying: > > % Interesting question. I gave up with my daughter (I just didn't have > % the time and patience to explain every detail). Still, she seems to > % be getting the hang of it. > % > % About the biggest thing I'm realizing from having a house full of > % computer semi-literates is that the biggest stumbling block is the > % ability to work with files, including editing. I'd recommend that > % your kids learn those concepts early on. > > This is a good point. One of the traditional hurdles to UNIX acceptance has > been the lack of editors, or the plethora of editors, depending on who you > ask. Pick one that seems simple, teach both of your children how to write a > simple letter using it, and let them go on their own from there. > > I will go so far as to suggest that there are a couple of editors based on the > X Window System that are somewhat more approachable than command-oriented > editors in UNIX. In particular, aXe (an X editor) is quite simple, and > reasonably fast on limited hardware like your 486. > > The X Window System release that comes on the FreeBSD CD-ROMs, XFree86, is > quite good - it's stable, fast, and relatively easy to configure. That, along > with a simple default configuration, may go a long way towards taking the > scare out of editing UNIX files. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Wes Peters To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 09:59:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17814 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17806 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:59:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (ferengal-1-45.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.128.45]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id LAA10273; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:59:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA02486; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:59:42 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980704165941.ZM2483@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:59:41 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders)" (Jul 4, 4:58pm) References: <199807040703.BAA02533@softweyr.com> <19980704165817.D358@freebie.lemis.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Greg Lehey , Wes Peters , jasone@canonware.com, smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com Subject: Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA17808 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jul 4, 4:58pm, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple > On Saturday, 4 July 1998 at 1:03:39 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > My hidden microphone recorded (Dag-Erling Coidan Sm?rgrav) > > (smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) saying: > > > >> Jason Evans writes: > >>> As the standard FBSD license reads, it seems to me that anyone who > >>> distributes a binary-only FreeBSD-based product is legally required to > >>> print reams of copyright notices in the documentation. That sucks for the > >>> distributor and for the customers. > >> > >> It's there for a reason. I can't understand why UCB hasn't sued the > >> pants off Microsoft yet... The monkeys in Redmond are shipping > >> software under Berkeley license without including the proper magic > >> incantations in their advertising material or documentation. > >> > >> Wouldn't it be a ball to see Microsoft print "This product includes > >> software developed at the University of California, Berkeley" on the > >> cover of every single Windows 98 or Windows NT CD? > > > > You'll find exactly those kinds of copyright notices on the Intel > > Internet Station, the little dial-up router I worked on last year. > > You find them there, and on the "Legal Stuff" web page in the user > > interface, only because I put them into the web page myself, and > > raised such a stink about the lack of notices in the documentation > > and got the legal department involved, over the strenuous objections > > of the doc writer. To their credit, the opinion from the legal > > department was rendered in mere hours, and boiled down to "put the > > copyright notices into the documentation or don't ship the product." > > :-) > > About 2 years ago I did a short contract for Siemens-Nixdorf in > Germany. One of the things I did was some modifications to syslogd, > and I noticed to my horror that they had removed the copyright. OK, I > was supposed to fix it, so I fixed that as well. After I had left, > one of my colleagues (Jürgen Krause, one of the authors of the > original FreeBSD ISDN package, with whom, just by chance, I was > working) called me up and said "Greg, something seems to have gone > wrong with your commit. You have the FreeBSD syslogd in there > instead". I don't know if it's still in there, or whether they took > it out again. > > > We researched copyright notices as diligently as possible in the > > time we had, given that Wind River Systems had removed the original > > copyright notices from much of the code, and credited UC Berkely, > > CMU, and the ISC. > > > > Why Microsoft cannot do the same is beyond me. Somebody oughtta > > take'em to court. Maybe Scott McNealy would loan us the bucks, > > on contingency? ;^) > > Now if there's one thing that *really* pisses me off, it's that nobody > has stopped Microsoft from shipping Internet Exploder because it is in > breach of contract. I would have hoped that Sun could say "ship it > with correct Java, ship it without Java, or don't ship it". If they > can't get that done, I don't see that they can help us in what is > primarily a matter of recognition. > > Greg Greg, arn't Sun and Microsoft presently in litigation over this very issue? I know that SUN has brought suit against Microsoft for their bastardising of Java, and I think that it also relates to IE as well. Frank > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 11:59:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27511 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lepton.nuc.net (root@lepton.nuc.net [204.49.61.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27502; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wheelman@nuc.net) Received: from electron.nuc.net (dhcp3.nuc.net [204.49.61.51]) by lepton.nuc.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06255; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:58:05 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jaime Bozza" To: "Wes Peters" , , Cc: , , , Subject: RE: A Little Cancer Patient need Your Attention Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:55:40 -0500 Message-ID: <001201bda77d$57015e60$333d31cc@electron.nuc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199807040642.AAA02488@softweyr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, guys... I know I originally posted a reply to the original author of the original spam message, but I'm not on FreeBSD-chat, and I don't really have much interest in this topic anymore. Please do me a favor and remove me from your CC list. Thanks, Jaime Bozza Nucleus Communications, Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Wes Peters [mailto:wes@softweyr.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 04, 1998 1:43 AM > To: gpalmer@freebsd.org; tlambert@primenet.com > Cc: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com; mike@smith.net.au; > wheelman@nuc.net; steve.a@cableinet.co.uk; chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: A Little Cancer Patient need Your Attention > > > My hidden microphone recorded Terry Lambert > (tlambert@primenet.com) saying: > > % In any case, the net upshot should be "do the right thing the right > % way", or as Seneca, the stoic philosopher from the 4th decate AD > % stated in his _Letters From A Stoic_: > % > % Never substitute activity for action. > % > % If you expect to have to live with the consequences of your actions, > % then these are words to live by. > > Terry is right, there are very few organizations who take the > time to consider > the consequences of their code. A partial reason for this is > the general > assumption the consequences will be "some customer will get > pissed, but won't > be able to return the goods because he doesn't have the > power/it'll be too > difficult/nobody ever does that." > > My first job out of school, I worked for one of the companies that has > specialized in considering the consequences of computer code: > Logicon, now a > division of Northrup-Grumman. My first job involved analyzing the math > library used by the Fortran compiler that produced the Minuteman > II targeting > program, PROVING that it produced mathematically correct code. > My second job > was as the point man on the team that tested the command and > control system > for Peacekeeper (the missile formerly known as MX). You have no > idea what an > education in RESPONSIBILITY it was to consider the consequences > of some code > screwing up and accidentally launching one of these beasts. Our boss, a > wonderful manager named Mary Ann Hayes, did an incredible job of > keeping us > focused on the job at hand while gently reminding us of the > importance of our > work, on how critical it was to be absolutely thorough. > > It has given me quite a different mindset throughout my career; > I've often > been "pulled off" a problem by management when they decided I > had solved it > thoroughly enough and I wanted to continue pursuing it. With > experience, I've > learned to balance my reactions somewhat better and to ask how > far I should go > in solving a problem, although I'd often prefer to take the > solution clear to > the bitter end. > > I am certainly not claiming to be perfect, but I have noticed a > different > mindset amongst coworkers who have this kind of military > background; it isn't > a greater attention to quality so much as a different way of > looking at it. > It's not such much "how much do I have to do to keep this from > crashing" as it > is "what's the worst thing that could happen if this screws up, > and how much > do I have to do to prevent THAT from keeping me awake at night?" > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr > wes@softweyr.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 4 17:55:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02429 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:55:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02422 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA17246; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 10:24:45 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980705102445.L358@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 10:24:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Frank Pawlak , Wes Peters , jasone@canonware.com, smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders) References: <199807040703.BAA02533@softweyr.com> <19980704165817.D358@freebie.lemis.com> <980704165941.ZM2483@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <980704165941.ZM2483@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:59:41PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 4 July 1998 at 16:59:41 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > On Jul 4, 4:58pm, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Now if there's one thing that *really* pisses me off, it's that nobody >> has stopped Microsoft from shipping Internet Exploder because it is in >> breach of contract. I would have hoped that Sun could say "ship it >> with correct Java, ship it without Java, or don't ship it". If they >> can't get that done, I don't see that they can help us in what is >> primarily a matter of recognition. >> >> Greg > > Greg, arn't Sun and Microsoft presently in litigation over this very issue? I > know that SUN has brought suit against Microsoft for their bastardising of > Java, and I think that it also relates to IE as well. Yes, that's exactly the point. What disappointed me was that they were not able to get an injunction stopping the delivery until it was conformant with the contract. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message