From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 11:16:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10503 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10497 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:16:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id LAA03152 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:16:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:16:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Those magnesium alloy laptops Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wow... I was in computer store last night (yes, this is how I spend my Saturday nights) and saw this laptop. I swear, it it the most beautiful laptop I have seen in my life. I fell in love with it right away. Sony VAIO 505. I don't think it is the features, but rather the design and the fact that it is SO small. Take a look for yourself: http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/jump/505/index_ita.html I started to drool as I imagine running FreeBSD on it + WindowMaker. I almost bought it.. but then realized I already have one :( -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 17:23:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15784 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15779 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:23:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA18827; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:53:19 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA28452; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:53:18 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980907095317.L25397@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:53:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jens Schweikhardt , Charles Youse Cc: syko@sykotik.org, scott@iprg.nokia.com, daniel@cooltime.simplenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where can I find C References: <199809061040.MAA17606@obsidian.noc.dfn.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199809061040.MAA17606@obsidian.noc.dfn.de>; from Jens Schweikhardt on Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 12:40:06PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (redirected to -chat) On Sunday, 6 September 1998 at 12:40:06 +0200, Jens Schweikhardt wrote: > # On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, Dusk Auriel Sykotik wrote: > # > On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Scott Sewall wrote: > # > > main () { > # > > printf("Hello World!\n"); > # > > } > # > You can't use printf(), you didn't include stdio.h :) > > hello, world\n > > # Nah, it'll draw a warning, perhaps .... but this is perfectly legal C. > > What did you smoke tonight? :-) K&R fiirst edition? > You call a variadic function with no prototype in scope > which leads to undefined behaviour as per ISO 9899:1990 > This bombs as soon as the representation of int and char * > are different or if there are different passing mechanisms > for those types. You're obviously very young, or you place too much trust in ``standards''. The *very* first program in "The C programming language", by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie, first edition (1978), page 6, is: main() { printf("hello, world\n"); } That's all. No header files, no comments. Purists will note that the the braces are not in K&R style (they are in the previous example), that the message is lower case only and does not bang. > Note that only the spelling of hello, world\n as above is correct :-) I didn't think it was standardized. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 17:33:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16458 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6467.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16453 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:33:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01086; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:32:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980906203247.B1058@zappo> Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:32:47 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Garrett Wollman , Charles Youse Cc: Dusk Auriel Sykotik , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where can I find C References: <199809060156.VAA21373@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199809060156.VAA21373@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>; from Garrett Wollman on Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 09:56:43PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Sep 05, 1998 at 09:56:43PM -0400, Garrett Wollman wrote: > > Mr. Whazisname is correct. Standard C does not permit variadic > functions to be called without a declaration in scope. The minimal > hello, world program in C would be: > > ------------------------------------ > int printf(const char *, ...); /* supply correct prototype */ > int > main(void) /* as a special exception, main is allowed to take no args */ Isn't defaulting main() to return int legit (although not recommended), too? [So long as we're being pedantic and minimal]. > I don't recall whether a non-prototype declaration is permitted for > variadic functions. I think it is, but would not be surprised to see > non-prototype declarations dropped completely from C 99. Same with the default return of int. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 17:40:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17010 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:40:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from artemis.syncom.net (artemis.syncom.net [206.64.31.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17005 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:40:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cyouse@artemis.syncom.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by artemis.syncom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA28704; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:51:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Youse To: Greg Lehey cc: Jens Schweikhardt , syko@sykotik.org, scott@iprg.nokia.com, daniel@cooltime.simplenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where can I find C In-Reply-To: <19980907095317.L25397@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > K&R fiirst edition? > > You're obviously very young, or you place too much trust in > ``standards''. The *very* first program in "The C programming > language", by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie, first edition > (1978), page 6, is: [snipsnip] Thank you. You took the words out of my mouth. [Actually, I think I *did* say that, but it may not have made it back to any lists.] Chuck Youse cyouse@syncom.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 17:58:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:58:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18045 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:58:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA18954; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:25:35 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA00482; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:24:49 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980907102439.A477@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:24:39 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Charles Youse Cc: Jens Schweikhardt , syko@sykotik.org, scott@iprg.nokia.com, daniel@cooltime.simplenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where can I find C References: <19980907095317.L25397@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Youse on Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 08:51:24PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 6 September 1998 at 20:51:24 -0400, Charles Youse wrote: > > > On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> K&R fiirst edition? >> >> You're obviously very young, or you place too much trust in >> ``standards''. The *very* first program in "The C programming >> language", by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie, first edition >> (1978), page 6, is: > > [snipsnip] > > Thank you. You took the words out of my mouth. [Actually, I think I *did* > say that, but it may not have made it back to any lists.] Yes, I was surprised that nobody else had played that card. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 18:00:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18471 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:00:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18454 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA03675; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:59:16 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where can I find C In-Reply-To: <19980907095317.L25397@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sunday, 6 September 1998 at 12:40:06 +0200, Jens Schweikhardt wrote: > > # On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, Dusk Auriel Sykotik wrote: > > # > On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Scott Sewall wrote: > > # > > main () { > > # > > printf("Hello World!\n"); > > # > > } > > # > You can't use printf(), you didn't include stdio.h :) > > > > hello, world\n > > > > # Nah, it'll draw a warning, perhaps .... but this is perfectly legal C. > > > > What did you smoke tonight? :-) > > K&R fiirst edition? > > > You call a variadic function with no prototype in scope > > which leads to undefined behaviour as per ISO 9899:1990 > > This bombs as soon as the representation of int and char * > > are different or if there are different passing mechanisms > > for those types. > > You're obviously very young, or you place too much trust in > ``standards''. The *very* first program in "The C programming > language", by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie, first edition > (1978), page 6, is: > > main() > { > printf("hello, world\n"); > } > > That's all. No header files, no comments. Purists will note that the > the braces are not in K&R style (they are in the previous example), > that the message is lower case only and does not bang. In the second edition (1988) `#include ' is part of that listing, and it is in that brace style. However, the include file is not required. germanium:jack {116} echo 'main(){printf("Hello World!\n");}' > hello.c germanium:jack {117} cc -o hello hello.c germanium:jack {118} ./hello Hello World! germanium:jack {119} cc -v gcc version 2.7.2.1 No warning, no errors, no core dumps. > > Note that only the spelling of hello, world\n as above is correct :-) > > I didn't think it was standardized. Same results as above with either spelling. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 18:06:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19527 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from redfish.go2net.com (redfish.go2net.com [207.178.55.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA19298 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:05:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@go2net.com) Received: from marcs by redfish.go2net.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zFpit-0002aZ-00; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:04:03 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:04:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@redfish To: jack cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where can I find C In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, jack wrote: > In the second edition (1988) `#include ' is part of that > listing, and it is in that brace style. However, the include > file is not required. > > germanium:jack {116} echo 'main(){printf("Hello World!\n");}' > > hello.c > germanium:jack {117} cc -o hello hello.c > germanium:jack {118} ./hello > Hello World! > germanium:jack {119} cc -v > gcc version 2.7.2.1 > > No warning, no errors, no core dumps. Just because it works on an implementation without problems or just because it was "standard" at one point does not mean that current standards allow it or that an implementation must work in that manner. So the issue is if the most relevant C standard says you need the include, then it isn't C if you don't do it even if it compiles. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 18:28:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22242 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22229 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA19048; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:58:48 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA00653; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:58:48 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980907105847.D583@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:58:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Marc Slemko , jack Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where can I find C References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Marc Slemko on Sun, Sep 06, 1998 at 06:04:03PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 6 September 1998 at 18:04:03 -0700, Marc Slemko wrote: > On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, jack wrote: > >> In the second edition (1988) `#include ' is part of that >> listing, and it is in that brace style. However, the include >> file is not required. >> >> germanium:jack {116} echo 'main(){printf("Hello World!\n");}' > >> hello.c >> germanium:jack {117} cc -o hello hello.c >> germanium:jack {118} ./hello >> Hello World! >> germanium:jack {119} cc -v >> gcc version 2.7.2.1 >> >> No warning, no errors, no core dumps. > > Just because it works on an implementation without problems or just > because it was "standard" at one point does not mean that current > standards allow it or that an implementation must work in that manner. True. But that has nothing to do with the original question. > So the issue is if the most relevant C standard says you need the > include, then it isn't C if you don't do it even if it compiles. That's your interpretation. If you read the compiler documentation, you'll see that it supports multiple standards. By default, this program works fine, and I claim that it's still C: === grog@freebie (/dev/ttyp0) ~ 2 -> cat >hello.c main() { printf("hello, world\n"); } You have mail in /var/mail/grog === grog@freebie (/dev/ttyp0) ~ 3 -> cc hello.c -o hello === grog@freebie (/dev/ttyp0) ~ 4 -> ./hello hello, world === grog@freebie (/dev/ttyp0) ~ 5 -> Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 18:33:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23236 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:33:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23218 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA03776; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:33:33 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Marc Slemko cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where can I find C In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Marc Slemko wrote: > Just because it works on an implementation without problems or just > because it was "standard" at one point does not mean that current > standards allow it or that an implementation must work in that manner. > > So the issue is if the most relevant C standard says you need the include, > then it isn't C if you don't do it even if it compiles. I'm not arguing that it is "correct", or good form, not to include the include, just that the `It won't work.' statements that were made are false with respect to that version of cc on this platform. IIRC what the original poster asked for, Greg's reply was the definitive answer. Sure, the implementation has changed in the past twenty years but I believe the original request was for the `first' or `original' C program. Apparently gcc 2.7.2.1 is backward compatible enough with K&R first edition not to need an include to use printf. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 19:53:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02321 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02316 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02303; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:52:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: jack cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where can I find C In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 06 Sep 1998 20:59:16 EDT." Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 19:52:48 -0700 Message-ID: <2299.905136768@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > germanium:jack {119} cc -v > gcc version 2.7.2.1 > > No warning, no errors, no core dumps. Only because you didn't ask for any. :-) jkh@time-> cc -Wall hello.c -o hello hello.c:1: warning: return-type defaults to `int' hello.c: In function `main': hello.c:1: warning: implicit declaration of function `printf' hello.c:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 6 22:23:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17971 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhub.ainet.com (mailhub.ainet.com [204.30.40.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17966 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:23:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmscott@shell.ainet.com) Received: from shell.ainet.com (jmscott@shell.ainet.com [204.30.40.108]) by mailhub.ainet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA21045; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by shell.ainet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05576; Sun, 6 Sep 98 22:25:12 PDT Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:25:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Scott" X-Sender: jmscott@shell To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Those magnesium alloy laptops In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I had a customer come into the office last week who had one, needless to say we were all very impressed. It looks like the goal is provide as small a machine as possible, putting most the devices as options ( external ). Very nice, but not cheap :-) Joseph Scott jmscott@ainet.com On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Wow... I was in computer store last night (yes, this is how I > spend my Saturday nights) and saw this laptop. I swear, it it the most > beautiful laptop I have seen in my life. I fell in love with it right > away. Sony VAIO 505. I don't think it is the features, but rather the > design and the fact that it is SO small. Take a look for yourself: > http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/jump/505/index_ita.html > I started to drool as I imagine running FreeBSD on it + > WindowMaker. I almost bought it.. but then realized I already have one :( > > -- Yan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 7 01:06:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06740 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:06:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obsidian.noc.dfn.de (obsidian.noc.dfn.de [193.174.247.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06696 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:06:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from schweikh@obsidian.noc.dfn.de) Received: (from schweikh@localhost) by obsidian.noc.dfn.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01593; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:05:58 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jens Schweikhardt Message-Id: <199809070805.KAA01593@obsidian.noc.dfn.de> Subject: Re: Where can I find C To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:05:58 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980907095317.L25397@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Sep 7, 98 09:53:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg et al, # (redirected to -chat) (now sent only to -chat and Greg) # On Sunday, 6 September 1998 at 12:40:06 +0200, Jens Schweikhardt wrote: # > # On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, Dusk Auriel Sykotik wrote: # > # > On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Scott Sewall wrote: # > # > > main () { # > # > > printf("Hello World!\n"); # > # > > } # > # > You can't use printf(), you didn't include stdio.h :) # > # > hello, world\n # > # > # Nah, it'll draw a warning, perhaps .... but this is perfectly legal C. # > # > What did you smoke tonight? :-) # # K&R fiirst edition? Yes, yes, yes! I accept that "the very first" program can be interpreted to mean "what K&R used in their 1st ed." It can also mean the canonical first program, hello world, as it should be taught in any language. Maybe I'm too biased from reading comp.lang.c where you would be tarred and feathered to assert that calling variadic functions without a prototype in scope "is perfectly legal C." As of C89 and C9X it's not. We all know that, of course. # > You call a variadic function with no prototype in scope # > which leads to undefined behaviour as per ISO 9899:1990 # > This bombs as soon as the representation of int and char * # > are different or if there are different passing mechanisms # > for those types. # # You're obviously very young, or you place too much trust in # ``standards''. The *very* first program in "The C programming # language", by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie, first edition # (1978), page 6, is: # # main() # { # printf("hello, world\n"); # } I'm 31, and 11 years ago I taught myself C using K&R 1st ed. You're right, I'm a standards fanatic. I find it a pity, that FreeBSD isn't even C89 + Amendment 1 compliant. Lots of code even violates C syntax gratuitously and for *no* reason at all [*] (I suspect programmer ignorance -- in other words: not knowing the Standard) making it impossible to compile those files with compilers other than gcc. I find C89 to be one of the better standards out there; the ISO document is relatively precise. Next come Standards from the IEEE, like e.g. POSIX. The worst are the "vendor" standards, XPG4 or SVID. In any case, I rather program to a standard, than to . # > Note that only the spelling of hello, world\n as above is correct :-) # # I didn't think it was standardized. It's a de facto standard :-) [*] absolutely unnecessary violations of C syntax in FreeBSD code: - labels without null statements at the end of a block - spurious semicolons after declarations at file scope - struct declarations without members - commas at the end of an enumeration list (C9X will allow that) - empty translation units The reason why this bullshit^Wbogus code is in the FreeBSD source is because gcc is not a Standard C compiler by default but has to be made so using some options (-ansi -pedantic and -lm). I'd rather have a standard C compiler where I have to request the *extensions* using options. But I'm fighting a lost battle here. :-( And yes, I have sent a PR about one of them (quota.h) a few days ago. I'll send another when I checked the whole source tree. Just in case anyone is wondering, no, I'm not eye-grepping the source, I have written a lexer and parser for ISO C and run that in a make world before doing the actual compilation with gcc. Regards, -- Jens Schweikhardt http://www.shuttle.de/schweikh/ SIGSIG -- signature too long (core dumped) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 09:51:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02713 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA02688 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:51:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21589; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:51:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980908095114.A21568@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:51:14 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) Sept. Meeting Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- BAFUG -- The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, September 10. This months meeting will be held at The Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Nicole Harrington and David Lowe will tag-team on the topic of qmail. Nicole's experience is using qmail in an ISP environment where David's is using qmail for huge mailing list servers. Among the topics to be covered are: * integrating qmail into a user environment * MUA patching * maildir format * advantages & disadvantages of qmail in that context * spam handling with qmail ==> Jordan Hubbard will give a short talk about the recent 2.2.7 and the upcoming 2.2.8 and 3.0 (Yeah!) release. ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on September 12 at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Cow Palace in Daly City. See http://www.freebsd-support.com/install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Donations of hardware are needed to build BAFUG a test machine for use at the Install-a-thons. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco. The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 8:00ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf.html http://www.reef.com http://www.freebsd-support.com Contact: Please contact either Ian Kallen, Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before September 10th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Ian Kallen can be reached at ian@gamespot.com Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com $Id: Sept98Announce.txt,v 1.2 1998/09/05 01:34:17 jgrosch Exp $ -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 11:16:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17691 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17679 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:16:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.dyn.ml.org) Received: from pechter.dyn.ml.org (ppp20.monmouth.com [205.164.220.52]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA28733 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02209 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:15:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> Subject: Oracle and Linux To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:15:00 -0400 (EDT) Reply-to: pechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to news.com: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,26094,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh "Oracle is developing marketing and technology partnerships with U.S.-based Red Hat Software and VA Research, Europe and North America-based SuSE, and Japanese firm Pacific HiTech. All four develop software for the Linux market." What are we doing in this area for FreeBSD... Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 11:18:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17893 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17888 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08689; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:18:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle and Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:15:00 EDT." <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 11:18:05 -0700 Message-ID: <8685.905278685@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > According to news.com: > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,26094,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh > > "Oracle is developing marketing and technology partnerships with > U.S.-based Red Hat Software and VA Research, Europe and North > America-based SuSE, and Japanese firm Pacific HiTech. > All four develop software for the Linux market." > > What are we doing in this area for FreeBSD... Nothing until Oracle indicates that they're willing to even consider FreeBSD (which, as of last contact, they were not). Until then, I guess we'd better make sure our linux emulation is up to it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 11:29:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18978 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18968 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22171; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:29:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980908112909.A22127@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:29:09 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , pechter@shell.monmouth.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle and Linux Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> <8685.905278685@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <8685.905278685@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:18:05AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:18:05AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > According to news.com: > > > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,26094,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh > > > > "Oracle is developing marketing and technology partnerships with > > U.S.-based Red Hat Software and VA Research, Europe and North > > America-based SuSE, and Japanese firm Pacific HiTech. > > All four develop software for the Linux market." > > > > What are we doing in this area for FreeBSD... > > Nothing until Oracle indicates that they're willing to even consider > FreeBSD (which, as of last contact, they were not). Until then, I > guess we'd better make sure our linux emulation is up to it. And loudly announce that the Linux port of Oracle and Informix runs on FreeBSD and that there are companies that are using FreeBSD, Oracle, and Informix for product development. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 11:30:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19295 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:30:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19280 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id EAA07036; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 04:30:06 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980909042959.50859@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 04:29:59 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone here use ed? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 11:33:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19870 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:33:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19865 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:33:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22206; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:33:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980908113331.A22189@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:33:31 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19980909042959.50859@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980909042959.50859@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 04:29:59AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 04:29:59AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > Does anyone here use ed? Only under extreme duress ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 12:00:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25288 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:00:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obsidian.noc.dfn.de (obsidian.noc.dfn.de [193.174.247.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25283 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from schweikh@obsidian.noc.dfn.de) Received: (from schweikh@localhost) by obsidian.noc.dfn.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16708; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:59:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: Jens Schweikhardt Message-Id: <199809081859.UAA16708@obsidian.noc.dfn.de> Subject: Re: ed To: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:59:43 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980909042959.50859@welearn.com.au> from "Sue Blake" at Sep 9, 98 04:29:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake asks: # # Does anyone here use ed? # Yes, but non-interactively. Here's a Makefile fragment I use to frob toor's home directory on newly installed machines. if ! grep 'toor.*/opt/home/root' /etc/passwd > /dev/null; then \ ( echo ',s,: /root,: /opt/home/root,'; sleep 2; echo wq ) | \ EDITOR=ed chpass toor; \ fi chpass pops you into some bizarre editor by default. This way I can automate the task. Just in case you wonder why the sleep 2 is there: believe it or not, whether a file has changed or not is determined by the modification time. If the seconds don't increment, like when the edit "session" takes only a fraction of a second, chpass thinks /etc/passwd wasn't modified. Ugh. Yes, I sent a PR, bin/4238 Oh, and yes, I also use the ed ethernet driver :-) Regards, -- Jens Schweikhardt http://www.shuttle.de/schweikh/ SIGSIG -- signature too long (core dumped) PS: Have you seen this? >From bgriffin@ic.sunysb.edu Tue Jan 23 10:26:05 MET 1996 Article: 16209 of comp.editors Path: news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.dfn.de!newsjunkie.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.cc.sunysb.edu!bgriffin From: bgriffin@ic.sunysb.edu (Eli the bearded) Newsgroups: comp.editors Subject: Re: Editor 4 Unix Date: 22 Jan 1996 19:17:36 GMT Organization: gnat tang does a body good Lines: 121 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <4e0nsg$841@abel.cc.sunysb.edu> References: <30F53479.1E6@gmd.de> <4dgnc2$qov@redstone.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: csws12.cc.sunysb.edu In article <4dgnc2$qov@redstone.interpath.net>, Scott McMahan - Softbase Systems wrote: >Rainer Wetekam (rainer.wetekam@gmd.de) wrote: >: Are there any good Editors for Unix. >: Please no Emacs and no vi. >What's left!? ed. >From the why ed is good file I saw posted here once: From: patl@athena.mit.edu (Patrick J. LoPresti) Message-ID: <1991Jul11.031731.9260@athena.mit.edu> Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system) Subject: The True Path (long) Date: 11 Jul 91 03:17:31 GMT Path: ai-lab!mintaka!olivea!samsung!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!patl Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs,alt.slack Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 95 Xref: ai-lab alt.religion.emacs:244 alt.slack:1935 When I log into my Xenix system with my 110 baud teletype, both vi *and* Emacs are just too damn slow. They print useless messages like, 'C-h for help' and '"foo" File is read only'. So I use the editor that doesn't waste my VALUABLE time. Ed, man! !man ed ED(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual ED(1) NAME ed - text editor SYNOPSIS ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ] DESCRIPTION Ed is the standard text editor. --- Computer Scientists love ed, not just because it comes first alphabetically, but because it's the standard. Everyone else loves ed because it's ED! "Ed is the standard text editor." And ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair. Just look: -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed -rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970 /usr/ucb/vi -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990 /usr/bin/emacs Of course, on the system *I* administrate, vi is symlinked to ed. Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K; and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!! "Ed is the standard text editor." Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed: golem> ed ? help ? ? ? quit ? exit ? bye ? hello? ? eat flaming death ? ^C ? ^C ? ^D ? --- Note the consistent user interface and error reportage. Ed is generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm the novice with verbosity. "Ed is the standard text editor." Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all. ED IS THE TRUE PATH TO NIRVANA! ED HAS BEEN THE CHOICE OF EDUCATED AND IGNORANT ALIKE FOR CENTURIES! ED WILL NOT CORRUPT YOUR PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS!! ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! ED MAKES THE SUN SHINE AND THE BIRDS SING AND THE GRASS GREEN!! When I use an editor, I don't want eight extra KILOBYTES of worthless help screens and cursor positioning code! I just want an EDitor!! Not a "viitor". Not a "emacsitor". Those aren't even WORDS!!!! ED! ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!!! TEXT EDITOR. When IBM, in its ever-present omnipotence, needed to base their "edlin" on a UNIX standard, did they mimic vi? No. Emacs? Surely you jest. They chose the most karmic editor of all. The standard. Ed is for those who can *remember* what they are working on. If you are an idiot, you should use Emacs. If you are an Emacs, you should not be vi. If you use ED, you are on THE PATH TO REDEMPTION. THE SO-CALLED "VISUAL" EDITORS HAVE BEEN PLACED HERE BY ED TO TEMPT THE FAITHLESS. DO NOT GIVE IN!!! THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!! ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 12:07:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26351 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26342 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:07:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08948; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 Sep 1998 04:29:59 +1000." <19980909042959.50859@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 12:06:31 -0700 Message-ID: <8944.905281591@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Does anyone here use ed? Yep! Still one of my favorite editors, in fact. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 13:07:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04614 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04609 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:07:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00438; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:13:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199809082013.NAA00438@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle and Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:15:00 EDT." <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:13:39 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > According to news.com: > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,26094,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh > > "Oracle is developing marketing and technology partnerships with > U.S.-based Red Hat Software and VA Research, Europe and North > America-based SuSE, and Japanese firm Pacific HiTech. > All four develop software for the Linux market." > > What are we doing in this area for FreeBSD... You're supposed to be letter-writing to Oracle committing to buying a FreeBSD Oracle. Or you could be helping the SVr4 emulation effort with a copy of Oracle for Solaris/x86. Or you could be pre-registering for a copy of Oracle for Linux and helping improve the Linux emulation to support it. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 13:18:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05580 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05570 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:18:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id WAA20079; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:18:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:18:16 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <19980909042959.50859@welearn.com.au> <19980908113331.A22189@mooseriver.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 08 Sep 1998 22:18:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: Josef Grosch's message of "Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:33:31 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA05573 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch writes: > On Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 04:29:59AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > Does anyone here use ed? > Only under extreme duress ;-) That's why it's called ed. Extreme duress. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 13:22:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06063 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05989 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:22:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09187; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:21:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert cc: oppermann@pipeline.ch (Andre Oppermann), ben@rosengart.com, mike@smith.net.au, doconnor@gsoft.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HEADS UP: 6 days to C-DAY In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:55:32 -0000." <199809081855.LAA04657@usr07.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:21:02 -0700 Message-ID: <9183.905286062@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The only problem I can see is the new US copyright law; it's no longer > > allowed to have/produce/sell technologie that enables you copy/analyse/ > > modify copyrighted work. > > Utter bilge. Ummm. What the hell is this doing in -current? Terry is old enough to know better, and I don't accept for a minute the "everyone else was doing it" or "I didn't start it" argument since that doesn't make one darn bit of difference when it comes to continuing a clearly inappropriate thread on a mailing list. Moved to -chat. KEEP it there, dammit! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 13:25:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06480 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cons.org (knight.cons.org [194.233.237.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06469 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:25:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by cons.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id WAA13141; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:25:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19980908222515.A13117@cons.org> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:25:15 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Terry Lambert , Martin Cracauer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Standardizing a BSD/ELF ABI... References: <19980908172807.A12626@cons.org> <199809081902.MAA05059@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <199809081902.MAA05059@usr07.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 07:02:56PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved to -chat] Well, I have to admit your examples prove you right. Is there any example code or literature about linking schemes that check that the size of data fields at runtime is the same at link time? In <199809081902.MAA05059@usr07.primenet.com>, Terry Lambert wrote: > > That's all? I'm afraid I have to rate that as lame :-) > > I did say "technically"... > > > You are using data from a library or provide data to a library that is > > not specified in the interface. > > The old libtermcap used to require exactly this for lines, columns, > and I-forget-what-character-array. > > The use of sys_errlist directly (allowed unde POSIX) instead of using > strerror(3) falls into this category, and counts as a break between > versions of RedHat releases, as do a number of libvga accesses. > > > > It could have been declared in an interface file with a certain size, > > in that case, you wouldn't be able to compile the pieces of code that > > don't fit together. > > It wasn't, and in any case, the dynamic linker would have to examine > the difference, since it would be between shared library revisions. > > > > Or you declare a pointer only, in that case you > > can't make any assumptions about the size, all you can do is to call a > > function in the same unit the data has been declared in, which knows > > the real size. So no problem either way as long as you strickly > > implement and obey to the published interfaces. > > You are assuming that the people writing this code are professional > programmers (who are paid to due grunt work), as opposed to students. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer Tel.: (private) +4940 5221829 Fax.: (private) +4940 5228536 Paper: (private) Waldstrasse 200, 22846 Norderstedt, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 13:31:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07898 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:31:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07887 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:31:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (algae26.verinet.com [199.45.181.122]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA02703; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:31:34 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17875; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:31:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Message-ID: <19980908143112.A17826@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:31:12 -0600 From: allen campbell To: Mike Smith Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle and Linux References: <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> <199809082013.NAA00438@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199809082013.NAA00438@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 01:13:39PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What are we doing in this area for FreeBSD... > > You're supposed to be letter-writing to Oracle committing to buying a > FreeBSD Oracle. My CSI number has spoken. > Or you could be helping the SVr4 emulation effort with a copy of Oracle > for Solaris/x86. > > Or you could be pre-registering for a copy of Oracle for Linux and > helping improve the Linux emulation to support it. Been there, done that. Do this even if you don't want it. You can bet they are watching the numbers. When I receive it, I will be attempting to run it on 3.0, which will probably be RELEASE by then. I hope I can be of help as a tester. Oracle recognized Linux because its customers (corporate developers, DBAs and system admins) wanted it. FreeBSD will be recognized when it represents a similar market significance. I am optimistic because to Oracle, one administrator is worth hundreds of desktops. One administrator who recognizes the potential of Linux is worth several ordinary admins, and one FreeBSD admin is worth at least three or four typical Linux guys. :) They just don't know it yet. -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 13:50:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10952 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:50:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10947 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:50:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id NAA06547; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:50:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:50:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle and Linux In-Reply-To: <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Bill Pechter wrote: >According to news.com: > >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,26094,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh > >"Oracle is developing marketing and technology partnerships with >U.S.-based Red Hat Software and VA Research, Europe and North >America-based SuSE, and Japanese firm Pacific HiTech. >All four develop software for the Linux market." > >What are we doing in this area for FreeBSD... What are YOU doing in this area for FreeBSD? Oracle (or some other company for that matter) will not make a port with out a lot of advocacy on our side. This includes (but not limited to) phone calls, sending mail to appropriate people, and simply pulling your "old boy" connections. In other words: do something. :) -- Yan > >Bill >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | >| Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | >| a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 14:07:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12985 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12961 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:06:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00815; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199809082112.OAA00815@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: P-Day tomorrow! In-reply-to: Your message of "08 Sep 1998 22:23:49 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:12:23 -0700 From: Mike Smith Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA12966 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Terry Lambert writes: > > ...And if it's every rolled in, I insist that it be called... > > > > "non-spacing Umlaat day" > > Why "Umlaut"? Why does everybody have to call that ¨ an umlaut? Why > does the HTML entity for ï have to be ï? Why use a German word > when there's a perfectly good English word for the bloody double-dot: > DIARESIS for chrissake! "Diaresis" is either Latin or Greek for "two dots". Latin, Greek, German - who cares? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 14:07:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13179 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.netvision.net.il (alpha.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13124 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ycs@netvision.net.il) Received: from netvision.net.il (RAS3-p120.hfa.netvision.net.il [62.0.146.120]) by alpha.netvision.net.il (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA18008; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:05:59 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <35F58E86.EB6ABE7@netvision.net.il> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:07:34 +0300 From: Yoav Cohen-Sivan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: allen campbell CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle and Linux References: <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> <199809082013.NAA00438@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980908143112.A17826@verinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org allen campbell wrote: > > > > Been there, done that. Do this even if you don't want it. You > can bet they are watching the numbers. > That would be a big mistake. Flood them with thousands of phoney requests, get them to commit megabucks in the Freenix space. Then, when they release the product, say: "Um, sorry... we just wanted you to port, we don't really need it." Having only 50 people buy it, after thousands clamored, will reach one goal only: you can bet Oracle will drop out of the Freenix scene for the next ten years. Not to mention them telling other companies what a waste of resources it was. Let true market forces work. No need to cheat someone into a port, when there is no real demand for it, just so we can say: "Look, we have ten gazillion apps..." > One administrator who recognizes the potential of Linux is worth > several ordinary admins, and one FreeBSD admin is worth at least > three or four typical Linux guys. :) Jordan wrote a really nice editorial for freshmeat.net, about a month ago, on this topic. Why do Linux and FreeBSD advocates hate each other so much? We are in this together. Yoav > Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the > allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 14:22:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15161 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:22:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15156 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:22:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.1 [OUT])) id OAA01877; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA20941; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:19:53 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id PAA08034; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:19:52 -0600 Message-ID: <35F6F04C.D1E5C6CE@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:17:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <8944.905281591@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake innocently queried: % Does anyone here use ed? Jordan K. Hubbard wittily replied: > Yep! Still one of my favorite editors, in fact. :) Ugh. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a favorite, but I still use it for quick editing tasks where you need to change one string to another, and in shell scripts. I once wrote a manual for a widely available variant called QED; it was written in Fortran and available for most minicomputer systems in the late 70s and early 80s. I'm still pretty comfortable with it. ;^) . 1,$s/comfortable with/annoyed by/p -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 14:28:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15799 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:28:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15671 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:28:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id XAA05418 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:27:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (VMailer, from userid 101) id E69D31485; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:20:56 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed Message-ID: <19980908232056.A4650@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <19980909042959.50859@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.94.4i In-Reply-To: <19980909042959.50859@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 04:29:59AM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#4623 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Sue Blake: > Does anyone here use ed? I do. Isn't ed the One True Editor anyway ? :-) When the only mounted filesystem is "/", ed rules. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #63: Tue Sep 1 00:50:29 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 14:47:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18998 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:47:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18993 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:47:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09702; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:17:00 MDT." <35F6F04C.D1E5C6CE@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:46:50 -0700 Message-ID: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Ugh. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a favorite, but I still use > it for quick editing tasks where you need to change one string to > another, and in shell scripts. Actually, I wasn't really joking, and though it's certainly true that I use ed pretty rarely (usually when I'm in a situation where my terminal settings or current emulator are too braindead for vi), I still really like it for its concise-yet-powerful approach to editing. The problem most people have with ed(1) is that they don't have enough context to compare it to OTHER line editors, something which I unfortunately have in spades. Not only have I used some of the very worst line editors on the planet, back in the days when a cursor-addressible CRT terminal was either a luxury to be fought over with other staff members at the timesharing facility or simply didn't exist at all, but I've seen the productivity gains which resulted from switching from one of those editors to ed(1). To cite an example, back in the days when an HP2000A (access) was still considered pretty nifty equipment to have, we had a truly egregious line editor called, rather uninspiredly, EDITOR (AKA EDITOR 2000). I used that program for several years, and you haven't really measured program development suckage until you've done BASIC with EDITOR (though the previous generation of punched card weenies and front-panel jockies had it worse, of course). It used only absolute line numbers (no relative expressions allowed), its "search" command was basically like a grep which printed its results but otherwise returned no status or made itself useful in any way but a visual aid, you had to know *exactly* how many lines you had in the file if you wanted to delete all of them (no symbolic constants), etc etc. After a few years of this, an HP2000 fanatic I knew commissioned some Berkeley programmer, who's name most unfortunately escapes me, to write a new editor for the HP2000 and, since that programmer was already familiar with V6, he wrote an ed(1)-clone. I bless his fuzzy little soul to this day for that because it revolutionized editing code on the 2000. You could suddenly do operations that were bounded by ranges of line numbers, you had a halfway sensible search-and-replace function that worked with ranges, man - it was just an entirely new experience. Those who started with vi and then perhaps went on to emacs just have no perspective on what something like ed(1) represents. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 15:09:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23048 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:09:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23017 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:08:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-1-39.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.39]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id RAA24159; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:08:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA02028; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:09:14 -0500 Message-ID: <19980908170914.A1662@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:09:14 -0500 From: Frank Pawlak To: Yoav Cohen-Sivan , allen campbell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle and Linux References: <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> <199809082013.NAA00438@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980908143112.A17826@verinet.com> <35F58E86.EB6ABE7@netvision.net.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <35F58E86.EB6ABE7@netvision.net.il>; from Yoav Cohen-Sivan on Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:07:34PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 11:07:34PM +0300, Yoav Cohen-Sivan wrote: > allen campbell wrote: > > > > > > > Been there, done that. Do this even if you don't want it. You > > can bet they are watching the numbers. > > > > That would be a big mistake. Flood them with thousands of phoney > requests, get them to commit megabucks in the Freenix space. Then, when > they release the product, say: "Um, sorry... we just wanted you to port, > we don't really need it." Having only 50 people buy it, after thousands > clamored, will reach one goal only: you can bet Oracle will drop out of > the Freenix scene for the next ten years. Not to mention them telling > other companies what a waste of resources it was. > > Let true market forces work. No need to cheat someone into a port, when > there is no real demand for it, just so we can say: "Look, we have ten > gazillion apps..." > > > > One administrator who recognizes the potential of Linux is worth > > several ordinary admins, and one FreeBSD admin is worth at least > > three or four typical Linux guys. :) > > Jordan wrote a really nice editorial for freshmeat.net, about a month > ago, on this topic. Why do Linux and FreeBSD advocates hate each other > so much? We are in this together. > > > Yoav > This makes the most sense of all that has been said on this matter. Carrying out the types of ideas denounced in this post will result in exactly what is predicted here. The only effective method to get ISV's to port to any OS is to present a sound business case for them to do so. Apparently that has yet to be done in the case of FreeBSD, and that is sad. IMHO, running under emulation does not have the same cool factor or wham effect as running native... Regards, -- Frank -- "At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." --Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 15:27:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25947 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:27:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25932 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-2-14.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.134.142]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id RAA18638; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:27:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA02148; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:27:55 -0500 Message-ID: <19980908172754.A2143@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:27:54 -0500 From: Frank Pawlak To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Terry Lambert Cc: Andre Oppermann , ben@rosengart.com, mike@smith.net.au, doconnor@gsoft.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HEADS UP: 6 days to C-DAY References: <199809081855.LAA04657@usr07.primenet.com> <9183.905286062@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <9183.905286062@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 01:21:02PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 01:21:02PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > The only problem I can see is the new US copyright law; it's no longer > > > allowed to have/produce/sell technologie that enables you copy/analyse/ > > > modify copyrighted work. > > > > Utter bilge. > > Ummm. What the hell is this doing in -current? Terry is old enough > to know better, and I don't accept for a minute the "everyone else was > doing it" or "I didn't start it" argument since that doesn't make one > darn bit of difference when it comes to continuing a clearly > inappropriate thread on a mailing list. Moved to -chat. KEEP it > there, dammit! > > - Jordan > Ouch!! Bad hair day today Jordan? ;-) Regards, -- Frank "At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." --Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 16:16:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03760 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03752 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22476; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:15:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980908181556.58116@futuresouth.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:15:56 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wes Peters , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <35F6F04C.D1E5C6CE@softweyr.com> <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 02:46:50PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 02:46:50PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard woke me up to tell me: > > Those who started with vi and then perhaps went on to emacs just have > no perspective on what something like ed(1) represents. :-) Hey, I did my time with edlin! Ummm.... *crawl back into cave* *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 16:16:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03837 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03772 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13509; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:16:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd013478; Tue Sep 8 16:16:18 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18863; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:16:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199809082316.QAA18863@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: HEADS UP: 6 days to C-DAY To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:16:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, oppermann@pipeline.ch, ben@rosengart.com, mike@smith.net.au, doconnor@gsoft.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <9183.905286062@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Sep 8, 98 01:21:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > The only problem I can see is the new US copyright law; it's no longer > > > allowed to have/produce/sell technologie that enables you copy/analyse/ > > > modify copyrighted work. > > > > Utter bilge. > > Ummm. What the hell is this doing in -current? Mike gave the rationale for not fixing something under CAM that used to work without CAM as "if you are doing this, you are pirating music, so there's no reason to fix this anyway". While including a smiley, it seemed an attempt to chagrin the questioner out of asking for what I believe is a perfectly reasoanble functionality for the CAM driver, to wit: support for, minimally, SCSI II audio data reading. You also clipped out the part about the Toshiba 3401B. The Toshiba was the first CDROM drive available in the US, seperately from the need to purchase an SGI system to get the Hitachi drive, that could read audio data off of CD's. I know, because this is the reason that I bought the thing. Using raw SCSI commands to read audio data off this driver works under CAM, just as it always has without CAM. > darn bit of difference when it comes to continuing a clearly > inappropriate thread on a mailing list. Moved to -chat. KEEP it > there, dammit! I think you are omitting context to the point that it really does belong on -chat; but without that context diked out, the response to Mike's justification for not having audio track reading support in CAM stands on its own: his claims of illegality are specious. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 18:00:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21169 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21161 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01988; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199809090103.SAA01988@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Terry Lambert cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), oppermann@pipeline.ch, ben@rosengart.com, mike@smith.net.au, doconnor@gsoft.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HEADS UP: 6 days to C-DAY In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:16:02 -0000." <199809082316.QAA18863@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:03:48 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > The only problem I can see is the new US copyright law; it's no longer > > > > allowed to have/produce/sell technologie that enables you copy/analyse/ > > > > modify copyrighted work. > > > > > > Utter bilge. > > > > Ummm. What the hell is this doing in -current? > > Mike gave the rationale for not fixing something under CAM that used > to work without CAM as "if you are doing this, you are pirating music, > so there's no reason to fix this anyway". > > While including a smiley, it seemed an attempt to chagrin the questioner > out of asking for what I believe is a perfectly reasoanble functionality > for the CAM driver, to wit: support for, minimally, SCSI II audio data > reading. Utter bilge. The intention of the message was to point out in context that the problem was one which was likely to receive low priority right now, given its limited practical applications. In wishing to comment on the topic, you should be aware that the matter is actually under consideration, and that the original plaintiff and I are acquainted and have substantial context outside of the conversation in question. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 18:03:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21811 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21798 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:03:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10108; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert cc: oppermann@pipeline.ch, ben@rosengart.com, mike@smith.net.au, doconnor@gsoft.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HEADS UP: 6 days to C-DAY In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:16:02 -0000." <199809082316.QAA18863@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:03:04 -0700 Message-ID: <10104.905302984@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ummm. What the hell is this doing in -current? > > Mike gave the rationale for not fixing something under CAM that used > to work without CAM as "if you are doing this, you are pirating music, > so there's no reason to fix this anyway". I think you're missing the fact that Mike sometimes has a sense of humor and meant none of that the least bit seriously. I believe he also knows the individual in question and was making a pointed remark based on the known habits of that individual. In other words, you have created a thread based on a weak (and somewhat private) attempt at humor rather than a genuine deflection of the issue. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 21:05:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13300 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nexus.astro.psu.edu (nexus.astro.psu.edu [128.118.147.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA13293 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:05:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@astro.psu.edu) Received: from mstar.astro.psu.edu by nexus.astro.psu.edu (4.1/Nexus-1.3) id AA27457; Wed, 9 Sep 98 00:05:49 EDT Received: by mstar.astro.psu.edu (SMI-8.6/Client-1.3) id AAA25829; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:05:41 -0400 Message-Id: <19980909000540.A25497@astro.psu.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:05:40 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Mark Murray Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: P-Day tomorrow! References: <199809081412.QAA03322@gratis.grondar.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzpg1e24pvf=2Efsf=40hrotti=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Tue=2C_Sep_08=2C_1998_a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t_04:53:56PM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 04:53:56PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > E-day, C-day, P-day... if this keeps up we'll run out of alphabet any > time soon :) We denote that time $\alpha$-day. The solution doubtless lies in Unicode. -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 21:08:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13732 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nexus.astro.psu.edu (nexus.astro.psu.edu [128.118.147.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA13723 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@astro.psu.edu) Received: from mstar.astro.psu.edu by nexus.astro.psu.edu (4.1/Nexus-1.3) id AA27494; Wed, 9 Sep 98 00:08:13 EDT Received: by mstar.astro.psu.edu (SMI-8.6/Client-1.3) id AAA26072; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:08:06 -0400 Message-Id: <19980909000806.B25497@astro.psu.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:08:06 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: John Fieber , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: Terry Lambert , Poul-Henning Kamp , mark@grondar.za, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: P-Day tomorrow! References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: ; from John Fieber on Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 04:31:36PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 04:31:36PM -0500, John Fieber wrote: > The U+0300 code point I assume Terry was referring to is indeed > called a "COMBINING DIAERESIS". Terry is getting sloppy with > his email. :) Fortunately, combining diaeresis can now be cured with medicine, and a healthy diet can usually prevent it completely. -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 22:52:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21462 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21456 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:52:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (algae14.verinet.com [199.45.181.110]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA09172; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:51:56 -0600 Received: from verinet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18498; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:51:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Message-ID: <35F61765.841E729F@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:51:33 -0600 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yoav Cohen-Sivan CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle and Linux References: <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> <199809082013.NAA00438@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980908143112.A17826@verinet.com> <35F58E86.EB6ABE7@netvision.net.il> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yoav Cohen-Sivan wrote: > That would be a big mistake. Flood them with thousands of phoney > requests, get them to commit megabucks in the Freenix space. Your presumption is that I advocate making 'phoney' requests. I said no such thing. Although credible claims of demand are always most effective, simple advocacy is enough; to say that FreeBSD and/or Linux is in your estimation a worthy platform and that you support Oracle in these efforts is justified and worthwhile. Stuff your presumption. > Then, when > they release the product, say: "Um, sorry... we just wanted you to port, > we don't really need it." Having only 50 people buy it, after thousands > clamored, will reach one goal only: you can bet Oracle will drop out of > the Freenix scene for the next ten years. Not to mention them telling > other companies what a waste of resources it was. Ye of little faith. Oracle will be overwhelmed with the response. Don't doubt that. Of course, I can't really make that promise. I have only anecdotal evidence which tells me this is going to be very big. So you stick to your position on this and we'll see. > Let true market forces work. No need to cheat someone into a port, when > there is no real demand for it, just so we can say: "Look, we have ten > gazillion apps..." Market forces _are_ working, no? Oracle made the decision to take on this market. It remains to be seen if they have cheated themselves. In the mean time, a bit of hype won't hurt. > > One administrator who recognizes the potential of Linux is worth > > several ordinary admins, and one FreeBSD admin is worth at least > > three or four typical Linux guys. :) > > Jordan wrote a really nice editorial for freshmeat.net, about a month > ago, on this topic. Why do Linux and FreeBSD advocates hate each other > so much? We are in this together. See the :) Yoav? Acknowledge an attempt at humor without getting your shorts in a tight little bind. Silence would be my preference. -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 8 23:05:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22881 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:05:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22862 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (algae14.verinet.com [199.45.181.110]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA10502; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:04:52 -0600 Received: from verinet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18534; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:04:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Message-ID: <35F61A6E.CE370F1F@verinet.com> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:04:30 -0600 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fpawlak@execpc.com CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle and Linux References: <199809081815.OAA02209@pechter.dyn.ml.org> <199809082013.NAA00438@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980908143112.A17826@verinet.com> <35F58E86.EB6ABE7@netvision.net.il> <19980908170914.A1662@darkstar.connect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > IMHO, running under emulation does not have the same cool > factor or wham effect as running native... The way to work this is to turn it into an advantage. Is there any reason Oracle for Linux couldn't run _better_ on FreeBSD? My own experience is that FreeBSD is more stable and consistent. Many credible contributors have said that FreeBSD's virtual memory system is superior to Linux. So why not? You can bet benchmarks of Linux vs. NT will be done to death. If FreeBSD makes a credible showing there it will be hard to ignore. -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 00:13:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29162 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.consol.de (gate.consol.de [194.162.127.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29151 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Michael.Elbel@consol.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: Michael.Elbel@consol.de (at relayer gate.consol.de) Received: from msgsrv.bb.consol.de (root@msgsrv [10.250.0.100]) by gate.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04764; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:13:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fourier.int.consol.de (me@fourier.int.consol.de [10.0.1.17]) by msgsrv.bb.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA32025; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:13:31 +0200 Received: (from me@localhost) by fourier.int.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA16025; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:13:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from me) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:13:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Elbel Message-Id: <199809090713.JAA16025@fourier.int.consol.de> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Better SNR suggestion for the mailing lists Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: <2543.904882634@time.cdrom.com> Reply-To: me@FreeBSD.ORG X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #123 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In lists.freebsd.chat you write: >Actually, the problem is even simpler than that. If we restricted >posting to ONLY those who subscribe, rather than just any random >person (most of our casual posters do not subscribe to -hackers), >it would also cut way back on the abuse since you'd have to eat what >you served, so to speak. :) >I'm all in favor of trying that out, myself. I think it's time, at >least for lists like -hackers. Lists like questions can and should >remain fully open. And how do you propose to handle people like me who read this from behind a news server or a local mail exploder? I dunno, do you have an idea how much more load hub would have to handle if all those people would be forced to subscribe directly? Not to mention the inconveniance. I'm only able to follow most of the FreeBSD lists by reading them as newsgroups. I'm sure one can come up with any number of neat procmail/mailagent setups, but why not use a transport that's explicitly created for such things instead of forcing everybody to reinvent the wheel. Michael -- \|/ -O- Michael Elbel, ConSol* GmbH, - me@consol.de - 089 / 45841-256 /|\ Fermentation fault (coors dumped) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 00:55:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03400 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from niobe.ewox.org (ppp006.uio.no [129.240.240.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03389 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from finrod@niobe.ewox.org) Received: (from finrod@localhost) by niobe.ewox.org (8.9.1/8.8.8) id JAA00718; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:54:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from finrod) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Warm and fuzzy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: finrod@ewox.org (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 09 Sep 1998 09:54:49 +0200 Message-ID: <86btop7mba.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just completed 'make aout-to-elf-build' followed by 'make aout-to-elf-install'. I almost feel cheated... apart from a minor nit at reboot (fixing /usr/local/etc/rc.d/50.m3.sh to use the aout ldconfig so cvsupd would find its libs), everything went smoothly and flawlessly... *sob* I love you guys! DES (happy days are here again) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - finrod@ewox.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 02:17:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11146 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA11133 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:17:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA26898; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:47:06 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA05958; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:46:57 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980909184657.S583@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:46:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wes Peters , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <35F6F04C.D1E5C6CE@softweyr.com> <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <19980908181556.58116@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980908181556.58116@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 06:15:56PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 8 September 1998 at 18:15:56 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, Sep 08, 1998 at 02:46:50PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard woke me up to tell me: >> >> Those who started with vi and then perhaps went on to emacs just have >> no perspective on what something like ed(1) represents. :-) > > Hey, I did my time with edlin! >From the sublime to the ridiculous. EDLIN was just a toy, built long after some useful but arcane editors were well-known. Anybody use teco? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 03:36:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA19015 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:36:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA19007 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:36:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25003; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:36:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980909033643.A24982@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:36:43 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-sf@arachna.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: September BAFUG head count Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 03:51:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA21123 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from onizuka.vmunix.org (onizuka.vmunix.org [194.97.84.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21110; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from torstenb@vmunix.org) Received: by onizuka.vmunix.org via sendmail with stdio id for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:51:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:51:01 +0200 (CEST) From: torstenb@vmunix.org (Torsten Blum) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: me@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Better SNR suggestion for the mailing lists References: <2543.904882634@time.cdrom.com> <199809090713.JAA16025@fourier.int.consol.de> Reply-To: torstenb@FreeBSD.ORG X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In ramsey.lists.freebsd.chat you write: >In lists.freebsd.chat you write: >And how do you propose to handle people like me who read this from behind >a news server or a local mail exploder? [rest deleted] Not to mention that there are lots of people who prefer to read mailing- lists via news. There are many good reasons to do so. Killfiles, each mailinglist has it's own group etc. Eivind suggested to create a moderated mailinglist - which is IMHO a good idea... -tb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 04:32:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27353 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 04:32:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA27239; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 04:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id NAA25217; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:31:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:31:06 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: torstenb@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, me@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Better SNR suggestion for the mailing lists References: <2543.904882634@time.cdrom.com> <199809090713.JAA16025@fourier.int.consol.de> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Co=EFdan?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 09 Sep 1998 13:31:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: torstenb@vmunix.org's message of "Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:51:01 +0200 (CEST)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id EAA27248 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org torstenb@vmunix.org (Torsten Blum) writes: > Not to mention that there are lots of people who prefer to read mailing- > lists via news. There are many good reasons to do so. Killfiles, each > mailinglist has it's own group etc. This is jsut as easy with regular mail, if you use a sensible mail reader (e.g. Gnus). DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 05:08:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01825 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 05:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.consol.de (gate.consol.de [194.162.127.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA01818; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 05:08:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Michael.Elbel@consol.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: Michael.Elbel@consol.de (at relayer gate.consol.de) Received: from msgsrv.bb.consol.de (root@msgsrv [10.250.0.100]) by gate.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10939; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:07:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fourier.int.consol.de (me@fourier.int.consol.de [10.0.1.17]) by msgsrv.bb.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07510; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:07:55 +0200 Received: (from me@localhost) by fourier.int.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA26607; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:07:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from me) Message-ID: <19980909140755.A24406@consol.de> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:07:55 +0200 From: Michael Elbel To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav?= , torstenb@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Better SNR suggestion for the mailing lists References: <2543.904882634@time.cdrom.com> <199809090713.JAA16025@fourier.int.consol.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzplnntldza=2Efsf=40hrotti=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav__on_Wed=2C_Sep_09=2C_1998_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?at_01:31:05PM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 01:31:05PM +0200, Dag-Erling CoïdanSmørgrav wrote: > torstenb@vmunix.org (Torsten Blum) writes: > > Not to mention that there are lots of people who prefer to read mailing- > > lists via news. There are many good reasons to do so. Killfiles, each > > mailinglist has it's own group etc. > > This is jsut as easy with regular mail, if you use a sensible mail > reader (e.g. Gnus). Like I claimed in my original response, it's two things: - News was created just for such things. Gnus *is* a newsreader. That you also can use it to read mail (as you could do with nn, e.g.) is beside the point. Why should people who want to follow high-volume lists efficiently go through the pains of - figuring out how to split their incoming mail into different folders or whatever - figure out which client to use so they can reasonably follow threads - figure out how to best go about keeping all of the articles separated by lists online for a reasonable time (here at ConSol* we keep them for half ha year - it's way easier to search for something locally in a newsgroup than through the web interface at www.freebsd.org) All this happens automagically if you simply gateway the mailing lists into local newsgroups. - Bandwidth. Don't underestimate the amount of traffic you can save by using newsgroups and / or local mail exploders. E.g. if you're privately connected to one of the local ISPs in Munich, you don't have to subscribe to most interesting mailing lists at all. You simply read the newsgroups muc.lists.freebsd.hackers e.g. Much cheaper in connect time than having to have everything stuffed down your throat before you can decide you're not interested in a lot of the threads at all. In an ideal world (TM) we'd long since have a private news hierarchy for all the FreeBSD lists with local hubs in all major regions of the earth that handle backbone traffic. From there you could then subscribe for forward via email, get a news feed or read on the hub via news directly. Postings would be done either via news for those using news or by a mail gateway. But I start rambling - I'm fully aware that, at least at this time, the configuration and maintainance manpower needed to setup such a thing and keep it running is simply too much compared to what we have now and how (comparatively) smoothly that works. Michael -- \|/ -O- Michael Elbel, ConSol* GmbH, - me@consol.de - 089 / 45841-256 /|\ Fermentation fault (coors dumped) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 06:44:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12970 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 06:44:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA12792; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 06:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA25250; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:43:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA16400; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:43:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980909154320.44161@follo.net> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:43:20 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: torstenb@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: me@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Better SNR suggestion for the mailing lists References: <2543.904882634@time.cdrom.com> <199809090713.JAA16025@fourier.int.consol.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Torsten Blum on Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 12:51:01PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 12:51:01PM +0200, Torsten Blum wrote: > In ramsey.lists.freebsd.chat you write: > > >In lists.freebsd.chat you write: > > >And how do you propose to handle people like me who read this from behind > >a news server or a local mail exploder? > [rest deleted] > > Not to mention that there are lots of people who prefer to read mailing- > lists via news. There are many good reasons to do so. Killfiles, each > mailinglist has it's own group etc. > > Eivind suggested to create a moderated mailinglist - which is IMHO a good > idea... The work to get this up and running is going on in the background - the idea seems to have been approved and what is left is just getting things technically up and running (or noting that it is running correctly - I'm waiting on JMB for some feedback). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 11:57:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29526 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29521 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:57:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27257; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980909115716.A27248@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:57:16 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-sf@arachna.com Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Install-a-thon Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-a-thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly install-a-thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on September 12th at the Cow Palace in Daly City. The purpose of these install-a-thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Admission to the show is free but parking is $5.00. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com Ian Kallen - ian@gamespot.com Jan Koum - jkb@best.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.freebsd-support.com/install.html -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 17:13:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15038 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:13:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28487; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980909171313.A28346@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:13:13 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-sf@arachna.com Subject: Sept. BAFUG head count Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Couple of quick notes; We are going to try and get things more organized. The biggest difference will be that the pizza will show up at around 7:15. The meeting will start at 7:30 and then we will have some brief announcements, job available, people looking for jobs, etc. We will then have a secondary speaker, as in a short talk. After a bathroom break we will have the main speaker(s). This should be about an hour. After 20 minutes of questions we'll schmooze until we get kicked out at around 10:30. One topic that needs to be discussed is the time and location of future meetings. Kirk McKusick is going to be giving his class on 4.4BSD internals which meets on Thursday night. This is going to cause a number of people to miss the next 3 or 4 meetings. We have also had offers to hold the meeting in Berkeley and Mountain View. The Silicon Reef, of course, has told us that we are welcome as long as we want. So, we have something to think about. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 9 19:00:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02402 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:00:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02395 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason@washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id TAA15600 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:00:23 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id TAA13166 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:58:06 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Identd for IRC (where is it?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980908234823.0069a8f8@pacificnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 bear@pacificnet.net wrote: > > >I just finally got rid of Linux once and for all and installed FreeBSD. This cracks me up. I thought people were supposed to be fleeing M$ and running to Linux. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 01:49:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA26643 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:49:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA26635 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA00947; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:19:13 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA11426; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:19:04 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980910181904.E583@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:19:04 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Alok K. Dhir" , Ted Spradley Cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: make world under 60 seconds (was: ELF worldstone (etc.)) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Alok K. Dhir on Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 12:53:36AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format autorecovered at freebie.lemis.com] (following up to -chat) On Thursday, 10 September 1998 at 0:53:36 -0400, Alok K. Dhir wrote: > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Alok K. Dhir wrote: >> On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Ted Spradley wrote: >> >>>> Benchmark: mm:ss Notes >>>> -------------------------------------- >>>> GENERICstone 00:42 (1) >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Uh, I remember several months ago somebody posted a smart remark about >>> "make world" finishing in less than a minute, and a few people didn't get >>> the joke. Did it complete *successfully* ? If so, that monster is fast! >> >> No way that's mm:ss. That's supposed to be hh:mm - guaranteed... > > Guess I was wrong... Apparently GENERICstone is just the kernel... I > thought it was 'world'!! Can you imagine world in less than a minute?!! I'm hoping for it. I'm building a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD, using the original 2.11BSD tools. It's pretty much in the background, so don't ask me when I'll be finished, but the compiler is so fast that it's conceivable. Building the compiler itself takes about 1 second, and most directories are less than that. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 02:26:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA29788 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 02:26:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA29758 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 02:26:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.9.1/8.8.5) id LAA12615; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:24:36 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <19980910112436.06040@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:24:36 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <35F6F04C.D1E5C6CE@softweyr.com> <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <19980908181556.58116@futuresouth.com> <19980909184657.S583@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980909184657.S583@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 06:46:57PM +0930 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Greg Lehey, were spotted writing this on Wed, Sep 09, 1998 at 06:46:57PM +0930: > > >From the sublime to the ridiculous. EDLIN was just a toy, built long > after some useful but arcane editors were well-known. > > Anybody use teco? Well, I learned some basic TECO and worked with it a bit. In 1997. Using a Unix version. Wasn't that a silly thing to do? Even siller than writing a few INTERCAL programs I guess ;-) -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 05:44:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18128 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:44:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA18121; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:44:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.167]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22500; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:41:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA12812; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:41:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980910144148.A12693@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:41:48 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Blocking BCC spam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can we block blind carbon copy mails (bcc) to the FreeBSD mailing lists? This would reduce the spams a little bit. I don't think it is to harsh to require a 'to: freebsd-foo' or 'cc: freebsd-bla' line for our users. -- Wolfram Schneider http://freebsd.org/~w/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 06:07:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20761 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:07:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA20753 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:07:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA07524; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:20:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:07:35 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Ugh. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a favorite, but I still use > > it for quick editing tasks where you need to change one string to > > another, and in shell scripts. > > Actually, I wasn't really joking, and though it's certainly true that > I use ed pretty rarely (usually when I'm in a situation where my > terminal settings or current emulator are too braindead for vi), I > still really like it for its concise-yet-powerful approach to editing. > > The problem most people have with ed(1) is that they don't have enough > context to compare it to OTHER line editors, something which I > unfortunately have in spades. Yeah, me too. Those who think ed is bad should try, for instance, that horrid editor that came with CP/M, or "sos" on TOPS-10. Or, as an example of something other FreeBSD'ers MAY have seen, edlin. Remember that barfluous little botch? > Those who started with vi and then perhaps went on to emacs just have > no perspective on what something like ed(1) represents. :-) It was and is probably the best line editor ever written. Driving home last night I recalled a recent use of ed, one that is too common in my life. About every 14 months lately I change jobs, usually because my employer has been bought by someone and the whole management structure and tempo changes. Since I'm usually the "Alpha Geek" at work, I usually get the ugly job of changing the company name in all the comment headers, startup prompts, etc. for file in `find . \( -name '*.[ch] -o -name Makefile \) -print` do ed $file < Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21681 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:12:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA21672 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:12:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA07544; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:25:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35F7D04C.C92E14E1@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:12:44 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <35F6F04C.D1E5C6CE@softweyr.com> <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <19980908181556.58116@futuresouth.com> <19980909184657.S583@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > From the sublime to the ridiculous. EDLIN was just a toy, built long > after some useful but arcane editors were well-known. > > Anybody use teco? We had it on the DEC-10 at Weber, but it didn't work well with the TeleWidget terminals we had. Apparently the computing center folks couldn't be bothered to install the TVI912 terminal drivers for it. We all just used sos, which was a reasonable line editor, and even understood how to properly number COBOL and BASIC programs for you. The odd thing about sos is that it used ESC to separate commands from parameters, like search and replace strings. It meant you could search and replace any printable character, though. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 11:06:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20052 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (209-63-247-84.smf.jps.net [209.63.247.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20034 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:06:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id LAA23865 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:06:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980910110605.B20261@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:06:05 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 07:07:35AM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 07:07:35AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > The problem most people have with ed(1) is that they don't have enough > > context to compare it to OTHER line editors, something which I > > unfortunately have in spades. > > Yeah, me too. Those who think ed is bad should try, for instance, > that horrid editor that came with CP/M, or "sos" on TOPS-10. Or, > as an example of something other FreeBSD'ers MAY have seen, edlin. > Remember that barfluous little botch? Aaahhhhh, EDLIN. :) > > Those who started with vi and then perhaps went on to emacs just have > > no perspective on what something like ed(1) represents. :-) Personally, after having to use EDLIN a bit, I stayed far far away from line editors, preferring fullscreen editors such as: MS-DOS EDIT (what an editor. unmatched capabilities) MS Notepad (again, Microsoft comes up with a winner) xedit (I wonder how many were forced to use this VM/CMS monstrosity.) pico (Ugreat Ueditor, Ureally.) ee (in the spirit of EDIT, I'm sure) joe (wasn't really my cup of tea) emacs (Eighteen Megs And Crashes Steadily, someone once told me) elvis (vi impersonator) and finally got smart enough to use: vim (the crown jewel of text editors) I think I'd actually prefer ed to some of those. :) Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter The best way to accelerate Windows mailto:gsutter@pobox.com is at 9.8 m/s^2. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 11:17:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22283 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:17:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pompano.pcola.gulf.net (pompano.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22274 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:17:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from calvin@pompano.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (calvin@localhost) by pompano.pcola.gulf.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03192; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:16:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:16:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Calvin M Meloon To: Gregory Sutter cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed In-Reply-To: <19980910110605.B20261@notabene.zer0.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Gregory Sutter wrote: > Personally, after having to use EDLIN a bit, I stayed far far away > from line editors, preferring fullscreen editors such as: > > MS-DOS EDIT (what an editor. unmatched capabilities) > MS Notepad (again, Microsoft comes up with a winner) > xedit (I wonder how many were forced to use this VM/CMS monstrosity.) > pico (Ugreat Ueditor, Ureally.) > ee (in the spirit of EDIT, I'm sure) > joe (wasn't really my cup of tea) > emacs (Eighteen Megs And Crashes Steadily, someone once told me) > elvis (vi impersonator) > vim (the crown jewel of text editors) For many of us from the pre-windows pc era we preferred the ... Borland Turbo Editor in the TurboC and TurboPascal environments. It rocked. _____ __ _ / ___/__ _/ / __(_)__ Gulf Coast Internet Calvin M. Meloon / /__/ _ `/ / |/ / / _ \ Pensacola, FL Unix Administrator \___/\_,_/_/|___/_/_//_/ (850)438-5700 writer of code ~~~~ calvin@gulf.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Proponent of FreeBSD and the right of everyone to use a real OS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 13:42:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21092 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:42:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21060 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:42:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hel.ifi.uio.no (2602@hel.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.91]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id WAA01763; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:41:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hel.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:41:43 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Co=EFdan?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 10 Sep 1998 22:41:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:07:35 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA21069 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > Yeah, me too. Those who think ed is bad should try, for instance, > that horrid editor that came with CP/M, or "sos" on TOPS-10. Or, Son Of Stopgap, an editor that was written to replace an editor that was written to replace an editor while waiting for the next (better) editor. Or something like that. > as an example of something other FreeBSD'ers MAY have seen, edlin. > Remember that barfluous little botch? Actually, most of my acquaintances agree that edlin and debug are Microsoft's two best products ever. You wouldn't imagine how much fun one can have with debug... My favorite DOS horror story is about the time I rebuilt my primary FAT using debug as a hex editor :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 13:50:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22799 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:50:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22681 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:49:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hel.ifi.uio.no (2602@hel.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.91]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id WAA02371; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:49:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hel.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:49:42 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Calvin M Meloon Cc: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Co=EFdan?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 10 Sep 1998 22:49:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: Calvin M Meloon's message of "Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:16:42 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA22731 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Calvin M Meloon writes: > For many of us from the pre-windows pc era we preferred the ... > > Borland Turbo Editor > > in the TurboC and TurboPascal environments. It rocked. WordStar ripoff. Anybody ever used WordStar? It used to be THE text processor on the IBM PC platform, and just about every editor written for the PC until the early nineties was either a WordStar clone or had a WordStar compatibility mode. My all-time favorite DOS editor was Mr Ed, though I switched to Boxer later because it had syntax highlighting (kinda) and was configurable enough that you could teach it Emacs-like key bindings and make it use Unix-style line endings (\n instead of DOS' \r\n). Mr Ed was the best programming editor I'd ever used before I learned Emacs - I especially liked its extremely powerful search/replace functionality (regexp search/replace through batches of file, with or without confirmation) and a few nifty things such as summary mode (which showed only lines that began with an alphanumeric or underscore, i.e. function and variable declarations). Of course, Emacs has most of that and more... DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 13:51:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23356 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23347; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hel.ifi.uio.no (2602@hel.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.91]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id WAA02524; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:51:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hel.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:51:42 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blocking BCC spam References: <19980910144148.A12693@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Co=EFdan?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 10 Sep 1998 22:51:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: Wolfram Schneider's message of "Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:41:48 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA23349 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wolfram Schneider writes: > Can we block blind carbon copy mails (bcc) to the FreeBSD mailing > lists? This would reduce the spams a little bit. I don't think it is > to harsh to require a 'to: freebsd-foo' or 'cc: freebsd-bla' line for > our users. Yeah... If we could silently reject everything that has an MSMail-Priority header as well (the fingerprint of Microsoft Look out!), I'd be in hacker heaven... DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 13:53:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23680 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23674; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:52:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29912; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:52:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980910155220.22579@futuresouth.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:52:20 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blocking BCC spam References: <19980910144148.A12693@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980910144148.A12693@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de>; from Wolfram Schneider on Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 02:41:48PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 02:41:48PM +0200, Wolfram Schneider woke me up to tell me: > Can we block blind carbon copy mails (bcc) to the FreeBSD mailing > lists? This would reduce the spams a little bit. I don't think it is > to harsh to require a 'to: freebsd-foo' or 'cc: freebsd-bla' line for > our users. I dunno... When moving a thread from one list to another, I often bcc the original list to let them know it was moved, but make it take work to keep the thread on that list. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 14:00:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24988 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA02937; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:59:11 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19980910225911.A235@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:59:11 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav?= Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed Mail-Followup-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzp4suf4s55=2Efsf=40hel=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from_Da?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?g-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav__on_Thu=2C_Sep_10=2C_1998_at_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?10:41:42PM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 10:41:42PM +0200, Dag-Erling CoïdanSmørgrav wrote: > one can have with debug... My favorite DOS horror story is about the > time I rebuilt my primary FAT using debug as a hex editor :) I stopped playing games about 10 years ago, when a priate copy of Grand Prix (or something like that...) trashed the FAT on my Dad's 10Mb drive in his XT. He made me rebuild the FAT using debug and graph paper to store the table manually. Then I had to check each cluster and work out the correct chains and rebuild the table. Took me about three days. Strangely enough, that episode was probably the single biggest influence on my fascination with computers, and how they *really* worked... games seemed so boring after that. Except for Space Quest. As far as DOS editors go I still haven't found one to beat QEdit. Oh, for a Unix port. Regards, -Jeremy -- | "I could be anything I wanted to, but one things true --+-- Never gonna be as big as Jesus, never gonna hold the world in my hand | Never gonna be as big as Jesus, never gonna build a promised land | But that's, that's all right, OK with me..." -Audio Adrenaline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 14:21:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29318 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (ns1.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29313 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:21:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thomma@BayNetworks.COM) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (h016b.s86b1.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.1.107] (may be forged)) by smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15011; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fedex.engwest.baynetworks.com (fedex.engwest.baynetworks.com [134.177.110.46]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA18463; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrera.engwest (carrera.engwest.baynetworks.com) by fedex.engwest.baynetworks.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) Received: from localhost by carrera.engwest (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA11953; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:17:59 -0700 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed In-Reply-To: Your message of "10 Sep 1998 22:49:41 +0200" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.92 on Emacs 19.28 / Mule 2.3 (SUETSUMUHANA) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19980910141759D.thomma@baynetworks.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:17:59 -0700 From: Tamiji Homma X-Dispatcher: imput version 971024 Lines: 24 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > WordStar ripoff. Anybody ever used WordStar? It used to be THE text > processor on the IBM PC platform, and just about every editor written > for the PC until the early nineties was either a WordStar clone or had > a WordStar compatibility mode. I have used ws.com for CP/M 8080(IIRC, it was version 0.9) whose size is only 26KB. It was a wonderful full screen oriented editor in 1981 or 1982 running on CP/M 80. After some new releases, ws.com got much bigger and did reloading *.OVR(?) file when you ask WordStart to do something difficult. I started disliking WordStar when it gets bigger as most people do. However we could have enough programming tools fitting in one 8 inch floopy diskette. Anywhere I can find a CP/M machine, I could hack. The 8 inch floopy diskette used to cost about $10 per diskette in Japan. I have several friends who still use WordStar key binding in Emacs today. I guess they are still in love with WordStar... I'm not. Tammy PS: I am ed user when I'm in trouble :-) booting single user mode. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 16:21:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23818 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23813 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA02947; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:51:34 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA13169; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:51:19 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980911085119.L583@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:51:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 07:07:35AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 10 September 1998 at 7:07:35 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> >>> Ugh. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a favorite, but I still use >>> it for quick editing tasks where you need to change one string to >>> another, and in shell scripts. >> >> Actually, I wasn't really joking, and though it's certainly true that >> I use ed pretty rarely (usually when I'm in a situation where my >> terminal settings or current emulator are too braindead for vi), I >> still really like it for its concise-yet-powerful approach to editing. >> >> The problem most people have with ed(1) is that they don't have enough >> context to compare it to OTHER line editors, something which I >> unfortunately have in spades. > > Yeah, me too. Those who think ed is bad should try, for instance, > that horrid editor that came with CP/M, ED, the father of EDLIN? Right, it was emetic. > or "sos" on TOPS-10. Or, as an example of something other > FreeBSD'ers MAY have seen, edlin. Remember that barfluous little > botch? I took a look at the source when I got my first version of 86/DOS, confirmed that it was warmed-over (CP/M) ED, and went back to MINCE. >> Those who started with vi and then perhaps went on to emacs just have >> no perspective on what something like ed(1) represents. :-) > > It was and is probably the best line editor ever written. > > Driving home last night I recalled a recent use of ed, one that is too > common in my life. About every 14 months lately I change jobs, usually > because my employer has been bought by someone and the whole management > structure and tempo changes. Since I'm usually the "Alpha Geek" at > work, I usually get the ugly job of changing the company name in all > the comment headers, startup prompts, etc. > > for file in `find . \( -name '*.[ch] -o -name Makefile \) -print` > do > ed $file < 1,$s/Good Time Engineering/Mega Baby Bell/g > w > q > EOF > echo $file edited. > done > > You type this in, and depending on the size of your product(s), leave > for lunch or the night. When you get back, all of your source files > have been updated (to the rear, it seems) and you can quietly find a > new job. ;^) So what's wrong with for file in `find . \( -name '*.[ch] -o -name Makefile \) -print` do sed file.new 's/Good Time Engineering/Mega Baby Bell/g' if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then mv file.new fi echo $file edited. done ? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 16:22:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24213 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:22:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24195 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA02960; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:52:44 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA13177; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:52:34 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980911085233.M583@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:52:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <35F6F04C.D1E5C6CE@softweyr.com> <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <19980908181556.58116@futuresouth.com> <19980909184657.S583@freebie.lemis.com> <35F7D04C.C92E14E1@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35F7D04C.C92E14E1@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 07:12:44AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 10 September 1998 at 7:12:44 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> From the sublime to the ridiculous. EDLIN was just a toy, built long >> after some useful but arcane editors were well-known. >> >> Anybody use teco? > > We had it on the DEC-10 at Weber, but it didn't work well with the > TeleWidget terminals we had. Apparently the computing center folks > couldn't be bothered to install the TVI912 terminal drivers for it. > We all just used sos, which was a reasonable line editor, and even > understood how to properly number COBOL and BASIC programs for you. Didn't you just say that sos was terrible? > The odd thing about sos is that it used ESC to separate commands > from parameters, like search and replace strings. It meant you > could search and replace any printable character, though. Yes, I recall that from somewhere. Didn't CP/M's ED do that too? Or was it something like the editor from Zapple? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 16:25:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24592 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:25:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pobox.com (rafft-41.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.84.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24554 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:25:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Message-Id: <199809102325.QAA24554@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 5009 invoked from network); 10 Sep 1998 18:29:37 -0500 Received: from localhost (HELO pobox.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Sep 1998 18:29:37 -0500 To: "Steve Friedrich" cc: "Ben Hockenhull" , "freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG" , "SPROLESD@sw.noacsc.ohio.gov" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making A FreeBSD CD-ROM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:31:59 EDT." <199809101531.LAA13414@laker.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:29:37 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected to -chat; this doesn't belong in -questions ] In message <199809101531.LAA13414@laker.net>, "Steve Friedrich" wrote: } On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:12:08 -0400 (EDT), Ben Hockenhull wrote: } } >> I, personally, think it's unfair to ask any of us to spend our leisure } >> time helping you save $40. What does anyone else think ?? } > } >I, personally, think it isn't that big a deal and you need to relax. It's } >no different than asking for help with one's production (read: makes } >you money) FreeBSD system on the list, for instance. } } I think there are other people on this list that feel basically the way } I do. If you ask a question that implies you haven't done any of the The solution is simple: don't help them. Ignore them. Killfile them. Better yet, try to teach him how to go look in the "obvious" places before asking. Whatever, just get over it. His question was poorly phrased and his gratuitous "if you can't answer by today then never mind" was, well, gratuitous, but you're not helping matters any by jumping up and down with your hair on fire. By definition, your rantings won't reach first time posters who haven't lurked before asking their question, and one would think they'd be the worst offenders. } research yourself, I give you the answer on a silver platter, and many } others won't either. I get about 200 messages a day, and if we can't } prune out the noise, I'll unsubscribe, just as many others have. I Then unsubscribe and get on with your life. Trying to change the lists to fit your notion of reality is roughly akin to trying to teach the proverbial pig to sing; you'll do your blood pressure and possibly your general disposition a favor by just letting go of this issue. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I suspect it's an awful lot more effort than you may think. I get between 5 and 6 times the number of messages you claim to get in a day, and yes, some of them are irritating whiners who haven't bothered to try to help themselves. I find it much more productive to reply in private to them suggesting places they might look for preliminary information than fuming over the whole thing for each such message that comes by. Some people are repeat offenders; their mail gets sent to the bin and I don't have to worry about it. As the installed base of FreeBSD grows, the S/N ratio of the unmoderated lists will almost certainly continue to deteriorate. Complaining about this fact won't stop it from happening. } suggest we have one or two new lists, call them freebsd-lazy, } freebsd-cheap, or combine them as freebsd-lazy-and-cheap. Then you can Maybe we could have one called freebsd-topics-steve-friedrich-doesnt-like. Did you have a constructive suggestion to make? } spend your leisure time answering questions that the authors of the } questions should have/could have answered themselves, if they had put } forth the effort. I certainly can understand someone who has no } experience asking "where do I begin", and I have helped many people } such as this. But I am tired of going thru hundreds of "I didn't read } ANY FAQs, handbooks, web pages, or any thing else. Would somebody } please install and administer my system for me because it'll make me } money." Then don't. Nobody's holding a gun to your head. } You are responsible for the poor signal to noise ratio. And we need to } do something about it. His post was at least nominally on topic for the mailing list to which he sent it; yours was 100% noise. Whose fault is it again? -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 16:26:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24969 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:26:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24933 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:26:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA02981; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:56:18 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA13193; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:56:08 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980911085608.N583@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:56:08 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav?= , Wes Peters Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzp4suf4s55=2Efsf=40hel=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from_Da?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?g-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav__on_Thu=2C_Sep_10=2C_1998_at_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?10:41:42PM_+0200?= WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 10 September 1998 at 22:41:42 +0200, Dag-Erling CoïdanSmørgrav wrote: > Wes Peters writes: >> Yeah, me too. Those who think ed is bad should try, for instance, >> that horrid editor that came with CP/M, or "sos" on TOPS-10. Or, > > Son Of Stopgap, an editor that was written to replace an editor that > was written to replace an editor while waiting for the next (better) > editor. Or something like that. Ah yes, now I remember the TLA. From the Jargon File: :SOS: /S-O-S/ /n. obs./ 1. An infamously {losing} text editor. Once, back in the 1960s, when a text editor was needed for the PDP-6, a hacker crufted together a {quick-and-dirty} `stopgap editor' to be used until a better one was written. Unfortunately, the old one was never really discarded when new ones (in particular, {TECO}) came along. SOS is a descendant (`Son of Stopgap') of that editor, and many PDP-10 users gained the dubious pleasure of its acquaintance. Since then other programs similar in style to SOS have been written, notably the early font editor BILOS /bye'lohs/, the Brother-In-Law Of Stopgap (the alternate expansion `Bastard Issue, Loins of Stopgap' has been proposed). 2. /sos/ /vt./ To decrease; inverse of {AOS}, from the PDP-10 instruction set. >> as an example of something other FreeBSD'ers MAY have seen, edlin. >> Remember that barfluous little botch? > > Actually, most of my acquaintances agree that edlin and debug are > Microsoft's two best products ever. Maybe because they weren't from Microsoft? I still have the source to both of them from my 86/DOS release from Seattle Computer Products in late 1980. They don't seem to have changed since. > You wouldn't imagine how much fun one can have with debug... My > favorite DOS horror story is about the time I rebuilt my primary FAT > using debug as a hex editor :) Right, you could write to disk with it. A nice idea at the time. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 16:36:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27554 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27547 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18803; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: "Steve Friedrich" , "Ben Hockenhull" , "SPROLESD@sw.noacsc.ohio.gov" Subject: Re: Making A FreeBSD CD-ROM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:29:37 CDT." <199809102325.QAA24554@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:36:12 -0700 Message-ID: <18799.905470572@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [ redirected to -chat; this doesn't belong in -questions ] Then why did you leave -questions in the cc line? :-) > gratuitous, but you're not helping matters any by jumping up and down > with your hair on fire. By definition, your rantings won't reach first > time posters who haven't lurked before asking their question, and one would > think they'd be the worst offenders. This is a good point, and one which even those who know this already sometimes have to learn a couple of thousand times before it sticks. There's something just so *irritating* about this that an angry response is often the most enticing (albeit suboptimal) reaction. :) > who haven't bothered to try to help themselves. I find it much more producti ve > to reply in private to them suggesting places they might look for preliminary > information than fuming over the whole thing for each such message that comes > by. Some people are repeat offenders; their mail gets sent to the bin and Heh. I might note that I've also found an even more productive method since I get too many of these to even manage a short reply now: Just whap `delete'. Most folks who personally query me only to get no response at all do, amazingly enough, either figure it out for themselves shortly thereafter or figure out where to get that kind of information without hassling somebody directly in email. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 16:48:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29672 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:48:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29642; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA03054; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:18:26 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA13312; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:18:17 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980911091817.T583@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:18:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Wolfram Schneider Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blocking BCC spam References: <19980910144148.A12693@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19980910155220.22579@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980910155220.22579@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 03:52:20PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 10 September 1998 at 15:52:20 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 1998 at 02:41:48PM +0200, Wolfram Schneider woke me up to tell me: >> Can we block blind carbon copy mails (bcc) to the FreeBSD mailing >> lists? This would reduce the spams a little bit. I don't think it is >> to harsh to require a 'to: freebsd-foo' or 'cc: freebsd-bla' line for >> our users. > > I dunno... > When moving a thread from one list to another, I often bcc the original > list to let them know it was moved, but make it take work to keep the > thread on that list. Agreed. I do this too, and I find it a useful feature. I wouldn't like to see it go away. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 16:56:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00932 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:56:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00924 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:56:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id BAA23395; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:55:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:55:17 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com> <19980911085119.L583@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Co=EFdan?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 11 Sep 1998 01:55:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:51:19 +0930" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA00927 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > So what's wrong with > > for file in `find . \( -name '*.[ch] -o -name Makefile \) -print` > do > sed file.new 's/Good Time Engineering/Mega Baby Bell/g' > if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then > mv file.new > fi > echo $file edited. > done Well, you forgot a few ' and $ here and there, it will barf at the first mv for want of a second argument, and it can be written more concisely (and more readably): for f in `find . \( -name '*.[ch]' -o -name Makefile \)` ; do sed 's/Good Time Engineering/Mega Baby Bell/g' "${f}" >"${f}.new" && mv "${f}.new" "${f}" && echo "edited ${f}" done Apart from that, nothing :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 17:04:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01900 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pobox.com (rafft-41.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.84.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA01892 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:04:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Message-Id: <199809110004.RAA01892@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 5544 invoked from network); 10 Sep 1998 19:09:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (HELO pobox.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Sep 1998 19:09:00 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making A FreeBSD CD-ROM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:36:12 PDT." <18799.905470572@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:09:00 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <18799.905470572@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: } > [ redirected to -chat; this doesn't belong in -questions ] } } Then why did you leave -questions in the cc line? :-) So that anyone reading it in -questions who cared could follow it to -chat. [ ... ] } > who haven't bothered to try to help themselves. I find it much more produc } ti } ve } > to reply in private to them suggesting places they might look for prelimina } ry } > information than fuming over the whole thing for each such message that com } es } > by. Some people are repeat offenders; their mail gets sent to the bin and } } Heh. I might note that I've also found an even more productive method } since I get too many of these to even manage a short reply now: Just } whap `delete'. Most folks who personally query me only to get no } response at all do, amazingly enough, either figure it out for } themselves shortly thereafter or figure out where to get that } kind of information without hassling somebody directly in email. :-) Yes, that was another of my proposed solutions, and is my most common response to such messages as well :) A point which I didn't stress particularly hard in my first response is that this is in some ways analogous to unsolicited email - often times the amount of pain caused by people quoting the entire offending message and adding a "clever" retort is orders of magnitude greater than that of the original unwanted message. Those people are as much (if not more) a part of the problem than are the people they're complaining about. I could go on, but it might cause someone's irony-o-meter to explode, so I'll shut up for a while instead. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 17:29:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05212 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:29:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05195 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18979; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:29:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jon Hamilton cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making A FreeBSD CD-ROM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:09:00 CDT." <199809110004.RAA18922@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:29:08 -0700 Message-ID: <18976.905473748@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > } Then why did you leave -questions in the cc line? :-) > > So that anyone reading it in -questions who cared could follow it to -chat. Use bcc for this - doing it the way you did it only ensures that everyone else will just continue to blindly reply-all and you'll have essentially achieved nothing save a slight reshuffling of the header. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 17:33:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06172 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06165 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA03206; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:44:56 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA13706; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:44:46 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980911094445.X583@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:44:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav?= Cc: Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <9698.905291210@time.cdrom.com> <35F7CF17.E0C82BCA@softweyr.com> <19980911085119.L583@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzp67evfrq2=2Efsf=40hrotti=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav__on_Fri=2C_Sep_11=2C_1998_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?at_01:55:17AM_+0200?= WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 11 September 1998 at 1:55:17 +0200, Dag-Erling CoïdanSmørgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> So what's wrong with >> >> for file in `find . \( -name '*.[ch] -o -name Makefile \) -print` >> do >> sed file.new 's/Good Time Engineering/Mega Baby Bell/g' >> if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then >> mv file.new >> fi >> echo $file edited. >> done > > Well, you forgot a few ' and $ here and there, it will barf at the > first mv for want of a second argument, Guess who wrote in a hurry and didn't test :-( But where did I miss a '? Bill's missed ' doesn't count. > and it can be written more concisely (and more readably): > > for f in `find . \( -name '*.[ch]' -o -name Makefile \)` ; do > sed 's/Good Time Engineering/Mega Baby Bell/g' "${f}" >"${f}.new" && > mv "${f}.new" "${f}" && echo "edited ${f}" > done Style considerations. > Apart from that, nothing :) I'm glad to see you accept it :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 17:36:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07039 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:36:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pobox.com (rafft-41.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.84.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07006 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:36:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Message-Id: <199809110036.RAA07006@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 5870 invoked from network); 10 Sep 1998 19:40:16 -0500 Received: from localhost (HELO pobox.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Sep 1998 19:40:16 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making A FreeBSD CD-ROM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:29:08 PDT." <18976.905473748@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:40:16 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <18976.905473748@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: } > } Then why did you leave -questions in the cc line? :-) } > } > So that anyone reading it in -questions who cared could follow it to -chat. } } Use bcc for this - doing it the way you did it only ensures that } everyone else will just continue to blindly reply-all and you'll have } essentially achieved nothing save a slight reshuffling of the } header. :-) Hmmm, I did put in a Reply-To: line, but I suppose using a bcc: would have been better. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 17:36:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07241 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:36:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07220 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:36:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA03272 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:54 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA13932; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:44 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980911100644.B583@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:44 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: All BSD sources on 4 CD's (was: CSRG CDs now available) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from Warren Toomey ----- > To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) > Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:54:51 +1000 (EST) > Reply-To: wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] > Precedence: bulk > All, > Kirk McKusick is back from his 3-week trip and is now shipping > the 4CD set of BSD releases from the Computer Systems Research group. > It covers all BSD versions from 1BSD to 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite2 (but not > 2.11BSD, unfortunately). As well, the last disk holds the final sources > plus the SCCS files. > > Details at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/ > > Cheers, > Warren ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 19:10:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21048 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:10:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21021 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:10:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA12808; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:13:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199809110213.MAA12808@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Moving aout libs (part of aout->elf upgrade) In-Reply-To: from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag=2DErling_Co=EFdan__Sm=F8rgrav?= at "Sep 11, 98 02:07:22 am" To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Co=EFdan?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:13:22 +1000 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Coïdan Smørgrav wrote: > > OK. All I can say is that people really are brave just trusting a process > > like this! > > Why? It worked flawlessly for me. Erm, do hear somebody saying: "I aimed at my foot, but I missed, so that's alright"? 8-) FWIW, the upgrade process seems to have worked for a lot of people. From my perspective, I have difficulty coming to grips with the number of people who follow this stuff. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 10 19:35:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24229 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:35:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24219 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:35:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id EAA10046 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:35:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (VMailer, from userid 101) id 549431485; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:46:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:46:47 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed Message-ID: <19980911014647.A17618@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.94.4i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzp3e9z4rru=2Efsf=40hel=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from_Da?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?g-Erling_Co=EFdanSm=F8rgrav__on_Thu=2C_Sep_10=2C_1998_at_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?10:49:41PM_+0200?= X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#4623 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Dag-Erling CoïdanSmørgrav : > WordStar ripoff. Anybody ever used WordStar? It used to be THE text I've never been able to bear Wordstar's ripoffs. I hate these. > My all-time favorite DOS editor was Mr Ed, though I switched to Boxer Mine is -- surprisingly enough -- an editor made by Microsoft and shipped with the MSC 5.0 and 5.1. It was called 'M' and had a very interesting design, including a postfixed macro language. It had regular expressions far before many others too. You could even write extentions in C for it (although I had to disassemble the editor to find the interface and all the function names). I added several features in C, including line drawing, #include search, and mouse support ! That was also the heart of their PWB integrated editor/compiler although it was hidden behind menus :-( I still have it: 486 [1:41] roberto@keltia:/tmp/doc> ll /dos/c/usr/bin/ -rwx------ 1 roberto staff 142336 Apr 20 1989 m.exe -rwx------ 1 roberto staff 766 Sep 18 1990 m.ico -rwx------ 1 roberto staff 545 Mar 23 1991 m.pif -rwx------ 1 roberto staff 24576 Mar 28 1991 mext.mxt The last file is the one containing my extentions: 486 [1:41] roberto@keltia:/tmp/doc> what /dos/c/usr/bin/mext.mxt /dos/c/usr/bin/mext.mxt: stub.asm:1.00, O.ROBERT, 01-Sep-1989 vio.asm:3.13, O.ROBERT, 08-Oct-1989 gets.asm:1.10, O.ROBERT, 02-Jan-1989 487 [1:42] roberto@keltia:/tmp/doc> strings !$ |more ... MS-DOS Editor Extensions Version v.2.35.06 - Mar 28 1991 - O. ROBERT ... The Good Ol' Times [tm] :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #63: Tue Sep 1 00:50:29 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 11 02:10:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA07523 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA07481; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16539; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:24 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35F8E80D.54AE71E@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:21 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://www.internationalschool.co.uk/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Wolfram Schneider , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blocking BCC spam References: <19980910144148.A12693@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19980910155220.22579@futuresouth.com> <19980911091817.T583@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > When moving a thread from one list to another, I often bcc the original > > list to let them know it was moved, but make it take work to keep the > > thread on that list. > > Agreed. I do this too, and I find it a useful feature. I wouldn't > like to see it go away. How about requiring at least one FreeBSD list in the headers? That would still allow this to happen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 11 02:54:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11052 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enst.enst.fr (enst.enst.fr [137.194.2.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA11047 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beyssac@enst.fr) From: beyssac@enst.fr Received: from rumba.enst.fr (rumba.enst.fr [137.194.32.188]) by enst.enst.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA13341 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:53:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from beyssac@localhost) by rumba.enst.fr (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06802 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:53:59 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980911115359.A6770@rumba.enst.fr> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:53:59 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux FreeBSD 2.2.5 now available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's an ad for a CDROM reseller my brother scanned in a new local french Linux paper: http://www.eu.org/misc/linux_freebsd.gif I found that really funny. Rough translation: LINUX FreeBSD 2.2.5. A professional, UNIX-compatible operating system based on Berkeley 4.4 BSD... -- Pierre Beyssac pb@enst.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 11 03:29:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA14088 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:29:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picasso.tellique.de (picasso.tellique.de [62.144.106.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA14076 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:29:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ni@tellique.de) Received: from tellique.de (nolde.tellique.de [62.144.106.52]) by picasso.tellique.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23297; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:28:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <35F8FBB9.BDC86819@tellique.de> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:30:17 +0200 From: Juergen Nickelsen Organization: Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tamiji Homma CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed References: <19980910141759D.thomma@baynetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tamiji Homma wrote: > I have several friends who still use WordStar key binding in Emacs > today. If this is with ws-mode.el: this was my first slightly bigger Emacs Lisp programming experience. The code is very naive (mostly keybindings and some support functions), but has proven to be useful for the one user I originally wrote it for. I even considered some time to make it a true WordStar (non-document mode) emulation -- including help menus etc. -- Juergen Nickelsen Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25, 13355 Berlin, Germany Tel. +49 30 46307-552 / Fax +49 30 46307-579 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 11 04:27:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA20367 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:27:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA20359 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA01638; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:56:43 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id UAA29363; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:56:41 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980911205641.C611@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:56:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: beyssac@enst.fr, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux FreeBSD 2.2.5 now available References: <19980911115359.A6770@rumba.enst.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980911115359.A6770@rumba.enst.fr>; from beyssac@enst.fr on Fri, Sep 11, 1998 at 11:53:59AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 11 September 1998 at 11:53:59 +0200, beyssac@enst.fr wrote: > Here's an ad for a CDROM reseller my brother scanned in a new local > french Linux paper: > > http://www.eu.org/misc/linux_freebsd.gif > > I found that really funny. > > Rough translation: > > LINUX FreeBSD 2.2.5. A professional, UNIX-compatible operating system > based on Berkeley 4.4 BSD... Ils sont fous les Linuxiens. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 11 06:22:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00688 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.consol.de (gate.consol.de [194.162.127.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00679 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Michael.Elbel@consol.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: Michael.Elbel@consol.de (at relayer gate.consol.de) Received: from msgsrv.bb.consol.de (root@msgsrv [10.250.0.100]) by gate.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12152; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:20:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fourier.int.consol.de (me@fourier.int.consol.de [10.0.1.17]) by msgsrv.bb.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00726; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:20:40 +0200 Received: (from me@localhost) by fourier.int.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA09171; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:20:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from me) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:20:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Elbel Message-Id: <199809111320.PAA09171@fourier.int.consol.de> To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ed Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: Reply-To: me@FreeBSD.ORG X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #123 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In lists.freebsd.chat you write: >Calvin M Meloon writes: >> For many of us from the pre-windows pc era we preferred the ... >> >> Borland Turbo Editor >> >> in the TurboC and TurboPascal environments. It rocked. >WordStar ripoff. Anybody ever used WordStar? It used to be THE text >processor on the IBM PC platform, and just about every editor written >for the PC until the early nineties was either a WordStar clone or had >a WordStar compatibility mode. Bingo. Anybody still remember binary-patching the executable to customize WordStar for different terminals? I distinctly remember the pains to come up with settings for those @*$^&%% Hazeltine Terminals. I once even wrote a disk/File editor in Assembler for CP/M that, of course, used the WordStar compatible control keys to move the cursor. I actually feel somewhat ashamed that I can't remember whether it was ^C ^R ^F ^D or ^X ^E ^D ^S :(. I wonder if the 8 inch floppy that this little jewel is on can still be read. -- \|/ -O- Michael Elbel, ConSol* GmbH, - me@consol.de - 089 / 45841-256 /|\ Fermentation fault (coors dumped) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 11 11:41:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12862 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12847 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00835; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199809111847.LAA00835@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: John Birrell cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Moving aout libs (part of aout->elf upgrade) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:13:22 +1000." <199809110213.MAA12808@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:47:08 -0700 From: Mike Smith Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA12850 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Dag-Erling Coïdan Smørgrav wrote: > > > OK. All I can say is that people really are brave just trusting a process > > > like this! > > > > Why? It worked flawlessly for me. > > Erm, do hear somebody saying: "I aimed at my foot, but I missed, so that's > alright"? 8-) > > FWIW, the upgrade process seems to have worked for a lot of people. From > my perspective, I have difficulty coming to grips with the number of people > who follow this stuff. You have too much experience with NetBSD. 8) We have this irritating tradition of making the tree buildable (one which I have to admit you've done an amazing job of maintaining through a truly monstrous change), and so there are all these people that just, er, build it... -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 12 10:31:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24074 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:31:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hertz.ukonline.co.uk (hertz.ukonline.co.uk [195.40.112.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA24023 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: (qmail 1968 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1998 17:48:16 -0000 Received: from lon5-14.ukonline.co.uk (HELO ukonline.co.uk) (195.40.113.78) by hertz.ukonline.co.uk with SMTP; 12 Sep 1998 17:48:16 -0000 Message-ID: <35FAAF71.E4A0CA2C@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:29:21 +0100 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Broken link? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have begun compiling a list of answers to the questions most often asked on the questions-mailing list. The pages are at : http://dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org/~chrisr/ However, Whilst compiling the how - to for Quake the given link to Darius's Quake page (http://www.dons.net.au/~darius/quake/), doesn't appear to be working anymore. Is this a temporary or a permanent problem does anyone know? If it is permanent, I have a printed copy of the page I could turn into a web page and stick it into the pages I am doing. Also, if anyone has any comments / suggestions / information to offer regarding the pages I would like to hear them. Especially if you have saved answers to common questions that I can put up. TIA Chris R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message