From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Sep 27 00:10:42 1998
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:23:37 EDT."
		<199809241423.KAA20077@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> 
References: <199809241423.KAA20077@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>  <360A20D4.45A2010C@pipeline.ch> <13015.906638677@time.cdrom.com> 
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 01:11:16 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199809241423.KAA20077@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Garrett
Wollman writes: 
: <<On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:04:37 -0700, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com> said:
: 
: >> That would kill me :(
: > You are too easily killed.  Time for a +3 armor. ;)
: 
: The Postman hits!  The Postman hits!  You have new mail.

Shouldn't that be

sendmail forks!  sendmail forks!  You have new mail.---more---
sendmail forks!  sendmail forks!  You have new mail.---more---
sendmail forks!  sendmail forks!  You have new mail.---more---
sendmail forks!  sendmail forks!  You have new mail.---more---
sendmail forks!  sendmail forks!  You have new mail.---more---
sendmail forks!  sendmail forks!  You have new mail.---more---
you die.

Warner

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Sep 27 05:35:55 1998
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Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 08:33:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lanny Baron <beef@cybertouch.org>
To: Andre Oppermann <oppermann@pipeline.ch>
cc: Studded <Studded@dal.net>, Malartre <malartre@aei.ca>,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ssh in canada.
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	Sorry but I don't get it. This ssh is *i think* for secure
password auth. What does that have to do with child porn or any act of
madness that people can conjure up?

	If some person that wants to trade or send out pics of disgusting
things, how is ssh supposed to either guarantee his/her security and/or
prevent it from spreading?

lanny

On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Andre Oppermann wrote:

> Studded wrote:
> > 
> > Lanny Baron wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Malartre wrote:
> > >
> > > > What are the possible consequence of using ssh in canada? I was forced
> > > > to put the usa_resident flag in /etc/make.conf to compile ssh.
> > 
> > >         I am in Canada and installed ssh. So far I have had no problem.
> > > And if its not legal for some reason. What would the reason be?
> > >
> > > If gov'ts are worrying about ssh..maybe they should focus on the ease of
> > > children seeing hard core porn and brutality. They might get somewhere.
> > 
> >         Actually, one of the arguments that the American FBI uses in favor of
> > maintaining the export restrictions on strong crypto is that it is used
> > by child pornographers to transmit their wares.
> 
> Ahhh, now I understand! Since there are no child pornographers in the
> US, who could use ssh legally, it is sufficient to restrict export to
> stop them to use it. Wow... I'd like to know the IQ of the person who
> made that argument... must be under room temperature...
> 
> PS: SSH has been written outside the US and is there also available
> 
> -- 
> Andre
> 
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> 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Sep 27 10:19:09 1998
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Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:16:16 +0100
From: Scott Mitchell <rsm@acm.org>
To: Lanny Baron <beef@cybertouch.org>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ssh in canada.
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On Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 08:33:00AM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote:
> 	Sorry but I don't get it. This ssh is *i think* for secure
> password auth. What does that have to do with child porn or any act of
> madness that people can conjure up?
> 
> 	If some person that wants to trade or send out pics of disgusting
> things, how is ssh supposed to either guarantee his/her security and/or
> prevent it from spreading?
> 
> lanny

Well, ssh has the ability to use strong encryption which, because it might
be used by pornographers, terrorists, drug dealers, etc. to cover up their
nefarious activites, is illegal to export from the US (that somehow
includes Canada for the purposes of this particular law).  Clearly we
foreigners aren't capable of writing an encryption algorithm between us and
there are no pornographers, terrorists or drug dealers in the USA, so
everything is fine.  I mean, *obviously* making something illegal will stop
criminals from using it.

Yes, it's stupid and pointless, but you did ask!  That is essentially the
arguments used by the US and plenty of other governments to control the use
of strong encryption.  For more information on this and related issues you
might want to check out the Electronic Frontier Foundation (www.eff.org)
and other such organisations.

	Scott.

-- 
===========================================================================
Scott Mitchell          | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just 
<scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>   | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat"
QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B |     -- J. S. Bach.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Sep 27 17:50:51 1998
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From: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>
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On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Scott Mitchell wrote:

[snip]
> Well, ssh has the ability to use strong encryption which, because it might
> be used by pornographers, terrorists, drug dealers, etc. to cover up their
> nefarious activites, is illegal to export from the US (that somehow
> includes Canada for the purposes of this particular law).  Clearly we

Umm, why feel the need to export it? It's *developed* OUTSIDE the bloody
US!

And if we remember those silly laws correctly, it's legal to IMPORT
cryptographic software, it's just illegal to export it.

Goto http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh <-- SSH Homepage

And if you're dead keen on using RSAREF with ssh, then you can probably
grab it from ftp.replay.com, or ftp.hackic.nl.

> foreigners aren't capable of writing an encryption algorithm between us and
> there are no pornographers, terrorists or drug dealers in the USA, so
> everything is fine.  I mean, *obviously* making something illegal will stop
> criminals from using it.
[snip]

Nick

--
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Sep 27 18:01:28 1998
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I was going through the licence file included in the gtk 1.0.6
distribution, and discovered that gtk is distributed under the lgpl.
>From my limited understanding, with the gpl, you MUST release derivative
works with source, though the lgpl has been modified to allow you to
release binary only derivative works.

Is this the case? Could someone more familiar with the lgpl please
clarify it for me.

Cheers,
Nick

--
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"When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 01:56:17 1998
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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:47:48 +0100
From: Scott Mitchell <scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
To: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>
Cc: Lanny Baron <beef@cybertouch.org>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ssh in canada.
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On Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 10:50:03AM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Scott Mitchell wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> > Well, ssh has the ability to use strong encryption which, because it might
> > be used by pornographers, terrorists, drug dealers, etc. to cover up their
> > nefarious activites, is illegal to export from the US (that somehow
> > includes Canada for the purposes of this particular law).  Clearly we
> 
> Umm, why feel the need to export it? It's *developed* OUTSIDE the bloody
> US!

Well, say I bring my laptop (with perfectly legal international versions of
PGP, ssh, etc on it) with me to the US next time I'm there.  It's legal to
bring the machine into the country, but technically illegal to take it out
again when I leave.  Fortunately US immigration have never hassled me about
it (even whilst wearing my RSA-perl T-shirt :) so I don't know how the law
is applied to we evil foreigners.

I'm well aware of the stupidity of these laws, I was just trying to explain
the situation to someone who clearly hadn't encountered it before.  Perhaps
I should have put my last message inside <sarcasm> tags?

Anyway, this topic has been done to death in about a million other threads.

Cheers,

	Scott.

-- 
===========================================================================
Scott Mitchell          | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just 
<scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>   | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat"
QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B |     -- J. S. Bach.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 03:16:14 1998
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From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= )
Date: 28 Sep 1998 12:15:30 +0200
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Scott Mitchell <scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> writes:
> Well, say I bring my laptop (with perfectly legal international versions of
> PGP, ssh, etc on it) with me to the US next time I'm there.  It's legal to
> bring the machine into the country, but technically illegal to take it out
> again when I leave.  Fortunately US immigration have never hassled me about
> it (even whilst wearing my RSA-perl T-shirt :) so I don't know how the law
> is applied to we evil foreigners.

/me wonders what would happen if I tried to leave the US with a pile
of floppies or CDs with my initials on them... :O

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 04:57:02 1998
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On Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 12:15:30PM +0200, Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav  wrote:
> Scott Mitchell <scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> writes:
> > Well, say I bring my laptop (with perfectly legal international versions of
> > PGP, ssh, etc on it) with me to the US next time I'm there.  It's legal to
> > bring the machine into the country, but technically illegal to take it out
> > again when I leave.  Fortunately US immigration have never hassled me about
> > it (even whilst wearing my RSA-perl T-shirt :) so I don't know how the law
> > is applied to we evil foreigners.
> 
> /me wonders what would happen if I tried to leave the US with a pile
> of floppies or CDs with my initials on them... :O
> 

You'd be dragged off to the NSA labs to be reverse-engineered, unless you
could convince them that you were only the 56-bit model :)

	Scott

-- 
===========================================================================
Scott Mitchell          | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just 
<scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>   | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat"
QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B |     -- J. S. Bach.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 05:30:29 1998
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From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: LGPL confusion
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On Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 11:00:58AM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote:
> I was going through the licence file included in the gtk 1.0.6
> distribution, and discovered that gtk is distributed under the lgpl.
> >From my limited understanding, with the gpl, you MUST release derivative
> works with source, though the lgpl has been modified to allow you to
> release binary only derivative works.
> 
> Is this the case? Could someone more familiar with the lgpl please
> clarify it for me.

This is _almost_ the case.  You have to release object files for your
"work that uses the library", and you have to release source code if
you have a direct derivative work (ie, you do changes to GTK itself).

Shared library technology does probably not release you from the
requirement to release object files.

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 07:31:34 1998
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From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter@shell.monmouth.com>
Message-Id: <199809281431.KAA18704@shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Time for FreeBSD.COM (freebsd.inc?)
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
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Is it now time for FreeBSD Inc.? 

Slashdot has a story about Intel and Netscape investing in the Red Hat
Linux operation... according to ZDNET!

http://www.slashdot.org/articles/98/09/25/2150250.shtml
which points to:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2142107,00.html

Just an opinion -- not a flame:

Perhaps some enterprising type will finally come up with a commercially
supported FreeBSD in the near future.  I'm not sure if it's something
Walnut Creek will back, or some group of folks who resell FreeBSD 
based products in some kind of joint funding or consortium.

We've got the better software, but are losing both the mindshare and 
investments that we could be getting.  Imagine both Intel and Netscape
dropping some $$ into FreeBSD and FreeBSD versions of their products.

(Hell, I'd even be willing to see Microsoft invest in FreeBSD's future in
enterprise sites, and growth and applications...)

Anyone going to be at ISPcon San Jose to see this?

Bill 
stuck on the East Coast, missing the fun and even LISA this year.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com        |
|   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in  |
|  a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller                         | 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 08:42:52 1998
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To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter <pechter@shell.monmouth.com>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Time for FreeBSD.COM (freebsd.inc?) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:31:04 EDT."
             <199809281431.KAA18704@shell.monmouth.com> 
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:41:44 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Is it now time for FreeBSD Inc.? 

There is a FreeBSD, Inc.  It just doesn't do much more than buy people
hardware, fund the freebsd test labs and upgrade freebsd.org resources
as necessary for the time being.  It could probably try and do even
more than that, but time and $$$ are limited enough right now that
it's not really worth chasing that right now anyway.

> Slashdot has a story about Intel and Netscape investing in the Red Hat
> Linux operation... according to ZDNET!

Old news. :)

> Perhaps some enterprising type will finally come up with a commercially
> supported FreeBSD in the near future.  I'm not sure if it's something
> Walnut Creek will back, or some group of folks who resell FreeBSD 
> based products in some kind of joint funding or consortium.

I'm not sure what you mean by "commercially supported", but Walnut
Creek CDROM is going to be offering a number of support contract
arrangements in the near future - the infrastructure for handling
trouble tickets and customer support logs is being built as we speak.

Other than that, what we need before people like Intel will be showing
up on our doorstep with sacks of money is simply a lot more users.
You're not going to get people banging down your door asking whether
or not they can please please please port Office97 to FreeBSD unless
the market for such things appears to be there, and I don't think the
market (at least in terms of size) is there yet.  We could create
50 different FreeBSD, Incs. and that still wouldn't change a thing.

- Jordan


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 11:11:45 1998
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From: Lanny Baron <beef@cybertouch.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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Subject: Re: Time for FreeBSD.COM (freebsd.inc?) 
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	Well well, do I read correctly that FreeBSD is going to enlighten
itself to the commercial world of operating systems? I hope what I read is
correct. FreeBSD should be commercial and SHOULD have good tech support on
a contract basis. (Something I have suggested to Jordan for a long time.)

	For users of FreeBSD that have the time and understanding on "how
to" they should have no argument. Of course those that complain on a usual
basis (run to the hospital every time they have gastritis) will bitch
anyway. With a well run tech support group in place (and it can be done
from state to state or country to country) answering questions on how to
set up various ports (samba should be a good one)  or even those that like
myself love the FreeBSD version of Unix, but whom lack the ability to sit
and study there behinds off reading a sea of man pages which for some
part, they dont understand (usually due to lack of knowledge of the basics
needed). Will greatly learn the concepts. Sure it will cost money. But
then if one wanted to be able to find a job at a company and be able to
show the company that the person can build them a file-server for example.
He/she just might land a good and both, satisfying and rewarding job. Not
to mention the ability to start a business. 

	Maybe you should consider a versions somewhat compiled like
windows in the sense that it is up and running with certain ports ready
(installed). And of course the version that is currently on cdrom. In
addition, a group of packages for support. You could have levels of
support. Maybe a basic with no 800 number with a pre-determined amount of
time for the support. Then go up from there.

	Judging from how many people I have found help from and whom dont
have jobs they like, this would definedly be a great economic spin-off. 

	If you are going to implement ideas like the ones above,
undoubtably your organization will grow. And your system (FreeBSD Unix)
will be a lot more learnable by us non-Unix gurus'

	Jordan hook up with a GOOD marketing company. Please announce to
some of us from 1.1.5 when you make it public. The shares will go up by
leaps and bounds. Marketing is the key for that.

lanny


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 13:11:54 1998
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References: <19980927181616.40612@goatsucker.org> <Pine.SOL.4.02A.9809281041250.20593-100000@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au> <19980928094748.D24768@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
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Scott Mitchell wrote:

> Well, say I bring my laptop (with perfectly legal international versions of
> PGP, ssh, etc on it) with me to the US next time I'm there.  It's legal to
> bring the machine into the country, but technically illegal to take it out
> again when I leave.  

	The US laws on crypto are stupid, but they're not THAT stupid. :) The
law would apply if you downloaded export restricted software WHILE you
were in the US, then tried to leave with it. 

Doug (who thinks that this thread has gone way past silly, good thing
it's on -chat :)

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 13:40:43 1998
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Time for FreeBSD.COM (freebsd.inc?)
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At 10:31 AM 9/28/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote:

>Anyone going to be at ISPcon San Jose to see this?

Yes, I'll be there. I have thought for a long time that FreeBSD needed to
get its publicity and marketing acts together.... Maybe now IS the time.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 13:51:23 1998
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From: "Joseph M. Scott" <jmscott@ainet.com>
Subject: Re: Time for FreeBSD.COM (freebsd.inc?)
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	I'll be going.  I was hoping to goto some of the Linux meetings and see
what sort of things that they present.  Maybe I'll get an chance to inject
some comments on FreeBSD :-)

Joseph Scott
jmscott@ainet.com

At 02:30 PM 9/28/98 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
>At 10:31 AM 9/28/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote:
>
>>Anyone going to be at ISPcon San Jose to see this?
>
>Yes, I'll be there. I have thought for a long time that FreeBSD needed to
>get its publicity and marketing acts together.... Maybe now IS the time.
>
>--Brett Glass
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
>
>

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 15:02:41 1998
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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:03:46 -0700
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To: Chris Dillon <cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: URL Based Filtering on FreeBSD
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On Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 08:45:43PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote:
> Sigh.  Looks like Missouri is going to require that all K12 schools
> eventually implement "web-filtering" sometime in the near future.  At
> the moment we have a grant, with not much time left to use it, that will
> let us buy what we need to do this.  I was _really really_ hoping that I
> could find something that would work with FreeBSD (or BSDi, or Linux, or
> Solaris/x86, but PLEASE for the love of god don't make me use NT!).  I

As ineffective (and wrong) as this is, there exist tools to do it.  I
currently use an ad-blocker called Internet Junkbuster, by the anti-
advertising group Junkbusters <http://www.junkbusters.org/>.  You could
easily use that to do general web-filtering based on DNS or path name.

I see someone already pointed you to Peacefire; it's a good place. 
Best of luck fighting this!

Greg
-- 
Gregory S. Sutter                    Black holes were created
mailto:gsutter@pobox.com             when God divided by zero.
http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/
PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 15:32:28 1998
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[-ports -=> -chat]

On Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 06:05:49PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote:
> > I sort of like "filesys", it's not ambiguous and looks nice sitting in
> > the same directory with "sysutils".... :)
> 
>     _                           _           __  
>    / \   __ _ _ __ ___  ___  __| |     _    \ \ 
>   / _ \ / _` | '__/ _ \/ _ \/ _` |    (_)____| |
>  / ___ \ (_| | | |  __/  __/ (_| |     |_____| |
> /_/   \_\__, |_|  \___|\___|\__,_|    (_)    | |
>         |___/                               /_/ 

What the *hell* is that thing at the end of "agreed"!?  Don't tell me
it's a smiley, 'cause that ain't no smiley!  :-)


-- 
This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 15:36:26 1998
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From: Chris Dillon <cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us>
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To: Gregory Sutter <gsutter@mediacity.com>
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On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Gregory Sutter wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 08:45:43PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote:
> > Sigh.  Looks like Missouri is going to require that all K12 schools
> > eventually implement "web-filtering" sometime in the near future.  At
> > the moment we have a grant, with not much time left to use it, that will
> > let us buy what we need to do this.  I was _really really_ hoping that I
> > could find something that would work with FreeBSD (or BSDi, or Linux, or
> > Solaris/x86, but PLEASE for the love of god don't make me use NT!).  I
> 
> As ineffective (and wrong) as this is, there exist tools to do it.  I
> currently use an ad-blocker called Internet Junkbuster, by the anti-
> advertising group Junkbusters <http://www.junkbusters.org/>.  You could
> easily use that to do general web-filtering based on DNS or path name.
> 
> I see someone already pointed you to Peacefire; it's a good place. 
> Best of luck fighting this!

Thanks for the info.  I saw info on JunkBuster when I was looking
through the Squid pages.  Not sure if I want to fight all this just yet,
though.  I don't want to come off as some person who always goes against
the grain.  Everyone here is probably already sick of my Anti-Windows
talk.  :-)


-- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net
/* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet.
   For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development)
   (http://www.freebsd.org)                                         */



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 15:46:02 1998
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Recently posted to freebsd-jobs:

> From: "Roy Goodart" <sga@aros.net>
> Subject: Sales Opening
> To: "Free Based Jobs" <freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG>
> ...

Now I know why I like this operating system so much!  You don't see
anyone else freebasing Linux, now do you?  "Mmmmmmman!  That's some
gooooooood O.S.!!"  :-)

--Sean

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 16:22:38 1998
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From: Gregory Sutter <gsutter@pobox.com>
To: Chris Dillon <cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: URL Based Filtering on FreeBSD
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On Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 05:35:49PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Gregory Sutter wrote:
> > I see someone already pointed you to Peacefire; it's a good place. 
> > Best of luck fighting this!
> 
> Thanks for the info.  I saw info on JunkBuster when I was looking
> through the Squid pages.  Not sure if I want to fight all this just yet,
> though.  I don't want to come off as some person who always goes against
> the grain.  Everyone here is probably already sick of my Anti-Windows
> talk.  :-)

Yeah, I think I used to make people sick with it too.  Now I work in
a FreeBSD-based shop.  NT is run for Frontpage crazzzap only.

Go ahead, fight it.  Free expression (and _im_pression) is important.
Again, good luck! :)

Greg
-- 
Gregory S. Sutter                  "I think not," said Descartes...
mailto:gsutter@pobox.com            and promptly disappeared.
http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/     
PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052      

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 16:37:31 1998
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>From today's Reuters/Wired Digital News Summary:

Microsoft Calls Linux A Windows Rival WASHINGTON With its antitrust
trial looming within three weeks, Microsoft is calling a free
operating system a menace to its own Windows operating systems. The
Redmond giant, in a filing to the Securities and Exchange Commission,
added it expects other rivals to provide operating system competition
as well. The annual Microsoft filing to the SEC says "over the past
year, the Linux operating system has gained increasing acceptance and
leading software developers such as Oracle and Corel have announced
that they will develop applications that run on Linux.'' Based on
UNIX, Linux runs on Intel-based personal computers, but also can serve
as an Internet server.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 20:33:15 1998
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:39:34 -0800
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Time for FreeBSD.COM (freebsd.inc?)
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At 10:31 AM 9/28/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote:
>Is it now time for FreeBSD Inc.? 
>
>Slashdot has a story about Intel and Netscape investing in the Red Hat
>Linux operation... according to ZDNET!
>
>http://www.slashdot.org/articles/98/09/25/2150250.shtml
>which points to:
>http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2142107,00.html
>
>Just an opinion -- not a flame:
>
>Perhaps some enterprising type will finally come up with a commercially
>supported FreeBSD in the near future.  I'm not sure if it's something
>Walnut Creek will back, or some group of folks who resell FreeBSD 
>based products in some kind of joint funding or consortium.

There's a nice old saying: It takes money to make money.  Maybe we're all
poor?  I know I am, or else I would do some *BSD.com deal where I'd offer a
FreeBSD based product with more bells and whistles.  I guess if there were
a kewl corporate name that we could use instead of {Free}BSD.  Maybe to
corporate types the "Free" gives the impression of "you'd might get a
better product if you had spent thousands on it".  So basically we just
hide the "Free" part and charge a resonable price for the software and
service.

Maybe if the whole *BSD groups would join together to figure out a way to
make a BSD certification deal where people can be certified in BSD system
administration.  That way corporate people might think that we know our
stuff because we have a "certificate".  Anyways, the *BSD guru's can come
up with a "test" that people could take and if they pass it then they can
get a cirtificate.  But this would all have to be pretty ligitimate so that
corporations can put trust into it.

I think that a Certified product would have a better chance of selling.
(but that's my opinion)

>
>We've got the better software, but are losing both the mindshare and 
>investments that we could be getting.  Imagine both Intel and Netscape
>dropping some $$ into FreeBSD and FreeBSD versions of their products.

You want money dropped into FreeBSD?  I was thinking about this the other
day.  I figured that in politics people sign petitions aksing for some sort
of action to occur concerning a certain issue.

Well, my idea is that people in the *BSD community should figure out a way
to get people to maybe sign (electronically) a petition via the web(name
and email address) and then email these petitions to Oracle, Corel, Intel,
Amd, Cyrix, Microsuck, Adaptec, 3Com, Cyclades, Cisco, etc.  Maybe if they
see thousands of names on these petitions, then they'd add more BSD support
if we purchase and/or promote their products.

Although, I do believe that there should be more cooperation between the
OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD, and BSDi teams to create a product that is fully
binary compatible with each other and stuff like that.  Perhaps the big-wig
corporations prefer Linux because  (ideally) a binary for Redhat would work
on Debian or Slackware or whatever Linux based OS.  But of course, they'd
probably be needing the correct glibc versions and all that crap.  Maybe
the big-wig corporations would rather see only *one* "free" BSD product
where they can take and mold into what they want, but that would probably
take all 3 of the "free" BSD teams merging into one - but I don't think
that would happen.  It might be a matter of "survival of the fitest" when
it comes to the "free" BSD versions, and just wait to see which of the 3
gets the coroprate approval. 

>
>(Hell, I'd even be willing to see Microsoft invest in FreeBSD's future in
>enterprise sites, and growth and applications...)

Only problem is that Bill Gates might break the operating system, then we'd
have to fix it.

>
>Anyone going to be at ISPcon San Jose to see this?

I'd love to be there, but I can't. :(


Well, it's hard to tell what the hell corporate America (or the rest of the
planet for that matter) really wants.  FreeBSD seems to be better than
Linux, but it really seems as though that they're going for the Linux name
rather a truely stable and easy to administer operating system, because if
they did they'd go with FreeBSD.  Right?

Anyways, those were my 2 cents.  I may be completely wrong with my
assumptions/prediction/interpretations of what the corporate world is
looking for, and what they are looking to invest in.  If I'm wrong, please
enlighten me on the matter - but do it nicely. :)  Thanks.

Joey Bear Garcia

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Sep 28 21:18:12 1998
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Eivind Eklund wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 11:00:58AM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote:
> > I was going through the licence file included in the gtk 1.0.6
> > distribution, and discovered that gtk is distributed under the lgpl.
> > >From my limited understanding, with the gpl, you MUST release derivative
> > works with source, though the lgpl has been modified to allow you to
> > release binary only derivative works.
> >
> > Is this the case? Could someone more familiar with the lgpl please
> > clarify it for me.
> 
> This is _almost_ the case.  You have to release object files for your
> "work that uses the library", and you have to release source code if
> you have a direct derivative work (ie, you do changes to GTK itself).
> 
> Shared library technology does probably not release you from the
> requirement to release object files.

If you distribute GTK itself as a shared library, you have no need to 
release your own object files, as a user could (theoretically) create
a new shared GTK library, fixing any problems and/or adding functionality
to GTK, and still use it with your program.

OTOH, we wouldn't have this problem if authors of useful libraries like
GTK didn't infest it with any mutation of the GPL.  But, since it is
the *GNU* toolkit, it's not surprising, is it?  ;^)


-- 
       "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters                                                 Softweyr LLC
http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr                      wes@softweyr.com

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 00:34:20 1998
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http://vision.ucsd.edu/~atai/softwarewar.gif

-- Yan


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 01:08:28 1998
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> >     _                           _           __  
> >    / \   __ _ _ __ ___  ___  __| |     _    \ \ 
> >   / _ \ / _` | '__/ _ \/ _ \/ _` |    (_)____| |
> >  / ___ \ (_| | | |  __/  __/ (_| |     |_____| |
> > /_/   \_\__, |_|  \___|\___|\__,_|    (_)    | |
> >         |___/                               /_/ 
> 
> What the *hell* is that thing at the end of "agreed"!?  Don't tell me
> it's a smiley, 'cause that ain't no smiley!  :-)

Sure it is -- Big as life.  :-)
 
-- 
-- David    (obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu  -or-  obrien@FreeBSD.org)

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 02:06:41 1998
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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:06:05 +1000 (EST)
From: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>
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To: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
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Subject: Re: LGPL confusion
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On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Wes Peters wrote:

> OTOH, we wouldn't have this problem if authors of useful libraries like
> GTK didn't infest it with any mutation of the GPL.  But, since it is
> the *GNU* toolkit, it's not surprising, is it?  ;^)
> 

Thank god they released it under the lGPL then, as opposed to the GPL. :)

Nick

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 03:01:54 1998
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cc: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>,
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Subject: Re: LGPL confusion 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:06:05 +1000."
             <Pine.SOL.4.02A.9809291905180.21989-100000@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au> 
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 03:00:32 -0700
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And actually, Gtk stands for "the GIMP Toolkit", not "the GNU Toolkit" :-)

- Jordan

> On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Wes Peters wrote:
> 
> > OTOH, we wouldn't have this problem if authors of useful libraries like
> > GTK didn't infest it with any mutation of the GPL.  But, since it is
> > the *GNU* toolkit, it's not surprising, is it?  ;^)
> > 
> 
> Thank god they released it under the lGPL then, as opposed to the GPL. :)
> 
> Nick
> 
> --
> Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb 
> Key fingerprint =  DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D  A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A
> "When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown
> 
> 
> 
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 04:04:28 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: LGPL confusion
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>,
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On 29-Sep-98 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> And actually, Gtk stands for "the GIMP Toolkit", not "the GNU Toolkit" :-)
> 
And GIMP stands for "GNU Image Manipulation Program", so there you go :(

/Marino

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 04:31:25 1998
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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:29:52 +0200
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Cc: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: LGPL confusion
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On Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 10:17:24PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote:
> Eivind Eklund wrote:
> > Shared library technology does probably not release you from the
> > requirement to release object files.
> 
> If you distribute GTK itself as a shared library, you have no need to 
> release your own object files, as a user could (theoretically) create
> a new shared GTK library, fixing any problems and/or adding functionality
> to GTK, and still use it with your program.

This is not clear, given the present state of shared library
technology.  The FSF has (according to Terry) refused to come with a
statement to this effect.

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 05:02:13 1998
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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:01:35 +0200
From: Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org>
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If you watched the German election broadcastings of Bavarian third
channel on Sunday and Monday, you could see the Laptop to my right
running FreeBSD. I haven't been successful to place a FreeBSD plushie
somewhere on the desk, I hope the knowledgeable will recognize 80x50
pcvt running tcpdump and emacs from Windows.

ObAntiNT: In the most important moment (Sunday, 18:05) you could hear
the moderator say "uh, I hear the graphics didn't arrive yet", while I
was desperately trying to reboot the Intergraph box running NT under
the desk behind him, mumbling something like "Stirb, Mistvieh"
(roughly, "Die, Bastard"). To no avail, since NT hung, the machine had
no reset switch, I had disconnected the ATX power switch to protect it
from being kicked by the Graphics girl and I taped the power cables
all way down to the UPS with more Gaffa than I could remove quickly.

Martin
-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org> http://www.cons.org/cracauer/

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 05:42:13 1998
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On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote:

> > If you distribute GTK itself as a shared library, you have no need to 
> > release your own object files, as a user could (theoretically) create
> > a new shared GTK library, fixing any problems and/or adding functionality
> > to GTK, and still use it with your program.
> 
> This is not clear, given the present state of shared library
> technology.  The FSF has (according to Terry) refused to come with a
> statement to this effect.
> 
> Eivind.
> 

Well, if and when I come up with something worth releasing, I'll be
seeking advice on how to minimise LGPL'd code. :)

It's interesting how you notice how restrictive the gpl is once you
start considering the different licences you could release your code
under...

Nick

--
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 05:57:26 1998
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Jeffrey Lynn Jeffries wrote:
> 
> Has this list really slowed down to less than 10 messages per day???
> 
> ==========================================================================
>    Jeffrey Lynn Jeffries
> 
>    Proud user of FreeBSD: Ask me how to unleash the daemon inside your PC
 
"My computer's possessed and works better than ever!"

-- 
Kris Kirby 
UAH Mail <kirbyk@email.uah.edu> UAH CS <kkirby@cs.uah.edu>
Home     <kris@airnet.net>      WWW <nomurphy@hotmail.com>
-------------------------------------------
TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 10:17:40 1998
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Hi,

This is off topic, so I'm asking here...

I have an ethernet switch that I've lost the password to.  I can enter a
debug mode where I get a dump that should contain the password, but I have
yet to find a tool to turn this:

00FF0100 00008000 000055AA 010055AA
00100016 0055AA55 12A00016 00080001
10002C00 05EA00FF 00080007 00AA55AA
12500007 00000001 0004000D 00AA55AA

into ascii characters.  All binary editors see this as a text file rather
than a a binary.  Any ideas?  I know I could punch these into a
calculator, but, blechh.  I have about 2000 lines to poke through...

Any hints appreciated,

Thanks,

Charles


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 13:43:53 1998
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	For those of you who use Blender you can now order the manual
also. This would be your way to support a company which supports Free
Software. And yes, the do have FreeBSD copy.

-- Yan, who is ordering his manual as we speak.

I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum 
But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. 
So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb
Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:24:45 +0200
From: Blender Shop <shop@neogeo.nl>
To: jkb@best.com
Subject: Blender News Sep 29, 1998


---------------------Blender News---------------------------------

Sorry: my previous mail had a wrong URL!

Try this:  http://www.blender.nl/shop/index.html

-Ton-
------------------------------------------------------------
|                                 shop@blender.nl          |
| Not a Number                    http://www.blender.nl    |
------------------------------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 14:19:30 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:13:48 +1200
From: Jonathan Chen <jonc@pinnacle.co.nz>
To: Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD on Bavarian TV
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On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Martin Cracauer wrote:

> If you watched the German election broadcastings of Bavarian third
> channel on Sunday and Monday, you could see the Laptop to my right
> running FreeBSD. I haven't been successful to place a FreeBSD plushie
> somewhere on the desk, I hope the knowledgeable will recognize 80x50
> pcvt running tcpdump and emacs from Windows.

Too bad we don't have a std FreeBSD logo/wallpaper/banner for these TV
moments. Its easy enough to recognise Windows and SGI machines from
background shots. :-(

Ah well, perhaps maybe once the results for X-desktop competition
comes in.

Jonathan Chen
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Experience is a hard teacher
               because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 14:38:34 1998
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On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Jonathan Chen wrote:

>On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Martin Cracauer wrote:
>
>> If you watched the German election broadcastings of Bavarian third
>> channel on Sunday and Monday, you could see the Laptop to my right
>> running FreeBSD. I haven't been successful to place a FreeBSD plushie
>> somewhere on the desk, I hope the knowledgeable will recognize 80x50
>> pcvt running tcpdump and emacs from Windows.
>
>Too bad we don't have a std FreeBSD logo/wallpaper/banner for these TV
>moments. Its easy enough to recognise Windows and SGI machines from
>background shots. :-(
>
>Ah well, perhaps maybe once the results for X-desktop competition
>comes in.
>

	What ever happened to it anyway?!

-- Yan


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 19:17:59 1998
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From: John Birrell  <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
Message-Id: <199809300225.MAA02467@cimlogic.com.au>
Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format?
In-Reply-To: <19980930092623.F15172@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Sep 30, 98 09:26:23 am"
To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:25:06 +1000 (EST)
Cc: ctapang@easystreet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Tuesday, 29 September 1998 at 16:40:42 -0700, Carlos C. Tapang wrote:
> > I have been watching with interest your progress in converting from aout to
> > ELF. I am not ELFish and am seriously considering the idea of starting all
> > over and converting, at least the FreeBSD core kernel, into Microsoft's PE
> > format. I understand that one of the things that need to be done is to
> > change the bootloader to recognize the PE format. Are there other things I
> > need to change? (The application loader will need to be modified also, of
> > course).
> >
> > You are probably wondering, what for? Well, this is just the start of a much
> > bigger project I am contemplating. I am thinking of starting a project along
> > the lines of WINE, a Windows emulator for Linux. But instead of just an
> > emulator, I want to build a Windows clone. The clone will use the FreeBSD
> > core kernel (use process/task/thread management, virtual memory modules
> > only).  I'm sure most of you will have a strong opinion one way or another
> > about this. Let's hear them!
> 
> Interesting.  This parallels my ongoing work in rewriting FreeBSD in
> GNU Emacs LISP.

I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java was
the more portable solution.

-- 
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 19:20:09 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:49:36 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
Cc: ctapang@easystreet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format?
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On Wednesday, 30 September 1998 at 12:25:06 +1000, John Birrell wrote:
> Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 29 September 1998 at 16:40:42 -0700, Carlos C. Tapang wrote:
>>> I have been watching with interest your progress in converting from aout to
>>> ELF. I am not ELFish and am seriously considering the idea of starting all
>>> over and converting, at least the FreeBSD core kernel, into Microsoft's PE
>>> format. I understand that one of the things that need to be done is to
>>> change the bootloader to recognize the PE format. Are there other things I
>>> need to change? (The application loader will need to be modified also, of
>>> course).
>>>
>>> You are probably wondering, what for? Well, this is just the start of a much
>>> bigger project I am contemplating. I am thinking of starting a project along
>>> the lines of WINE, a Windows emulator for Linux. But instead of just an
>>> emulator, I want to build a Windows clone. The clone will use the FreeBSD
>>> core kernel (use process/task/thread management, virtual memory modules
>>> only).  I'm sure most of you will have a strong opinion one way or another
>>> about this. Let's hear them!
>>
>> Interesting.  This parallels my ongoing work in rewriting FreeBSD in
>> GNU Emacs LISP.
>
> I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java was
> the more portable solution.

This is very much a matter of opinion.  Some say that Java's day is
past, and maybe we should use Perl, TCL or Guile.  Despite the GPL, I
tend to Guile, and was planning to migrate the LISP version in that
direction.

Greg
--
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 19:23:50 1998
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Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format?
In-Reply-To: <19980930114936.M15172@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Sep 30, 98 11:49:36 am"
To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
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Greg Lehey wrote:
> >>> emulator, I want to build a Windows clone. The clone will use the FreeBSD
> >>> core kernel (use process/task/thread management, virtual memory modules
> >>> only).  I'm sure most of you will have a strong opinion one way or another
> >>> about this. Let's hear them!
> >>
> >> Interesting.  This parallels my ongoing work in rewriting FreeBSD in
> >> GNU Emacs LISP.
> >
> > I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java was
> > the more portable solution.
> 
> This is very much a matter of opinion.  Some say that Java's day is
> past, and maybe we should use Perl, TCL or Guile.  Despite the GPL, I
> tend to Guile, and was planning to migrate the LISP version in that
> direction.

Just as long as the final code works on my microwave.

-- 
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 19:30:40 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format?
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On Wednesday, 30 September 1998 at 12:31:02 +1000, John Birrell wrote:
> Greg Lehey wrote:
>>>>> emulator, I want to build a Windows clone. The clone will use the FreeBSD
>>>>> core kernel (use process/task/thread management, virtual memory modules
>>>>> only).  I'm sure most of you will have a strong opinion one way or another
>>>>> about this. Let's hear them!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting.  This parallels my ongoing work in rewriting FreeBSD in
>>>> GNU Emacs LISP.
>>>
>>> I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java was
>>> the more portable solution.
>>
>> This is very much a matter of opinion.  Some say that Java's day is
>> past, and maybe we should use Perl, TCL or Guile.  Despite the GPL, I
>> tend to Guile, and was planning to migrate the LISP version in that
>> direction.
>
> Just as long as the final code works on my microwave.

The target machine is initially a Sunbeam TurboToaster 112S, and
you'll be pleased to know that I'm supporting the breadbun option
right from the first beta.  I anticipate having microwave support a
few months later.  Given the current lack of standardization in
microwaves, it's likely to be a bumpy path, but I'll do my best.  The
web browser support will probably cause particular headaches.  Which
model do you plan to use?

Greg
--
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 19:39:37 1998
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From: John Birrell  <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
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Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format?
In-Reply-To: <19980930120003.O15172@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Sep 30, 98 12:00:03 pm"
To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:46:47 +1000 (EST)
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Greg Lehey wrote:
> >>> I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java was
> >>> the more portable solution.
> >>
> >> This is very much a matter of opinion.  Some say that Java's day is
> >> past, and maybe we should use Perl, TCL or Guile.  Despite the GPL, I
> >> tend to Guile, and was planning to migrate the LISP version in that
> >> direction.
> >
> > Just as long as the final code works on my microwave.
> 
> The target machine is initially a Sunbeam TurboToaster 112S, and
> you'll be pleased to know that I'm supporting the breadbun option
> right from the first beta.  I anticipate having microwave support a
> few months later.  Given the current lack of standardization in
> microwaves, it's likely to be a bumpy path, but I'll do my best.  The
> web browser support will probably cause particular headaches.  Which
> model do you plan to use?

Something that doesn't use gas. 8-)

-- 
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 21:28:12 1998
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Subject: Win95/NT drivers on FreeBSD?
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Well, this is just a wild idea, so please don't throw a stone at me :-)

If we could provide a device driver framework that is identical to M$
Win95/98 DDK's one, then it would be a good incentive to the device
driver developers to release a FreeBSD driver.  It's a sort of ``get the
FreeBSD Win95 Compatibility DDK, compile your source on it, and there
you go!'' type of thing.

Well, the resulting driver code probably will be less efficient than
FreeBSD ``native'' drivers, but it's still better than nothing...

Or maybe we could even maintain the binary compatibility with Win95
device drivers, if Microsoft didn't plant anything secret in their DDK
so that every device driver file would have some ``blackbox'' code.

Would this be a technically/legally possible way?  Just wondering...

Cheers,
Eugene


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 21:47:22 1998
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From: "Carlos C. Tapang" <ctapang@easystreet.com>
To: "John Birrell" <jb@cimlogic.com.au>, "Greg Lehey" <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: <jb@cimlogic.com.au>, <chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:44:25 -0700
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Funny. Probably more than 90% of the x86 world runs Windows. FreeBSD is a
very good system, but not even 1% of the machines worldwide run it. All I
want to do is make what's good in FreeBSD more acceptable to 90% of the
world. FreeBSD dressed up as Windows has a better chance of conquering the
desktop than FreeBSD by itself. You probably do not want to target the
desktop, but that's where the real battle is going on. Linux is not the
enemy, the enemy is much bigger: Windows; and your only chance of even
touching Windows is to look like it.
--Carlos

-----Original Message-----
From: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au <jb@cimlogic.com.au>; ctapang@easystreet.com
<ctapang@easystreet.com>; chat@freebsd.org <chat@freebsd.org>
Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable
Executable (PE) format?


>Greg Lehey wrote:
>> >>> I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java
was
>> >>> the more portable solution.
>> >>
>> >> This is very much a matter of opinion.  Some say that Java's day is
>> >> past, and maybe we should use Perl, TCL or Guile.  Despite the GPL, I
>> >> tend to Guile, and was planning to migrate the LISP version in that
>> >> direction.
>> >
>> > Just as long as the final code works on my microwave.
>>
>> The target machine is initially a Sunbeam TurboToaster 112S, and
>> you'll be pleased to know that I'm supporting the breadbun option
>> right from the first beta.  I anticipate having microwave support a
>> few months later.  Given the current lack of standardization in
>> microwaves, it's likely to be a bumpy path, but I'll do my best.  The
>> web browser support will probably cause particular headaches.  Which
>> model do you plan to use?
>
>Something that doesn't use gas. 8-)
>
>--
>John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org
http://www.cimlogic.com.au/
>CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353
137
>


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 22:02:35 1998
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To: "Eugene M. Kim" <gene@nttlabs.com>
cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List <freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Win95/NT drivers on FreeBSD? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:27:52 PDT."
             <Pine.BSF.4.02.9809292111260.14598-100000@seera.nttlabs.com> 
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> Well, this is just a wild idea, so please don't throw a stone at me :-)

Ok... 

> If we could provide a device driver framework that is identical to M$
> Win95/98 DDK's


I don't think it's practical (or that useful).  The whole underside of 
Windows9x is fundamentally different from the way the FreeBSD kernel works 
with a lot of old DOS compatibility hacks thrown in too.  Even if hacked into 
FreeBSD by some work of genius, it would likely upset things for the worse.

I'd rather see what happens with the various *nix-oriented device driver 
standardization efforts.

Vendors are starting to respond to our market better anyway.  When did you 
last ask ^your^ vendor to support FreeBSD?   :-)

Cheers,

Jerry Hicks
jerry.hicks@glenayre.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 22:04:15 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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[Format autorecovered at freebie.lemis.com]

On Tuesday, 29 September 1998 at 22:44:25 -0700, Carlos C. Tapang wrote:
>> Greg Lehey wrote:

>>>>>> I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in
>>>>>> Java was the more portable solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is very much a matter of opinion.  Some say that Java's day is
>>>>> past, and maybe we should use Perl, TCL or Guile.  Despite the GPL, I
>>>>> tend to Guile, and was planning to migrate the LISP version in that
>>>>> direction.
>>>>
>>>> Just as long as the final code works on my microwave.
>>>
>>> The target machine is initially a Sunbeam TurboToaster 112S, and
>>> you'll be pleased to know that I'm supporting the breadbun option
>>> right from the first beta.  I anticipate having microwave support a
>>> few months later.  Given the current lack of standardization in
>>> microwaves, it's likely to be a bumpy path, but I'll do my best.  The
>>> web browser support will probably cause particular headaches.  Which
>>> model do you plan to use?
>>
>> Something that doesn't use gas. 8-)
>
> Funny. Probably more than 90% of the x86 world runs Windows. FreeBSD is a
> very good system, but not even 1% of the machines worldwide run it. All I
> want to do is make what's good in FreeBSD more acceptable to 90% of the
> world. FreeBSD dressed up as Windows has a better chance of conquering the
> desktop than FreeBSD by itself. You probably do not want to target the
> desktop, but that's where the real battle is going on. Linux is not the
> enemy, the enemy is much bigger: Windows; and your only chance of even
> touching Windows is to look like it.

Well, I'm afraid I have to disagree on a number of points.  First,
we're not by any means agreed that we want to win battles.  Secondly,
one of the big things wrong with Windoze is its look and feel.  I
don't think many people want to have that.  Finally, I didn't see from
your original posting (which I've now deleted) what your approach
would do to make FreeBSD more like Windows where it counts.  We can
pretend to look like Windoze now with fvwm95.  We can emulate a few
(too few) Microsoft applications.  What do we gain by changing the
object format?  Make no mistake, what John, Doug and the others have
done to change FreeBSD from a.out to elf with almost no hiccoughs is
little short of miraculous, as any Linux user will confirm.  These
transitions are painful, and I just don't see what advantage another
one (going obliquely backwards) would be.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 22:45:30 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:46:40 -0400
From: "Gary T. Corcoran" <garycor@home.com>
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Eugene M. Kim wrote:
> 
> Well, this is just a wild idea, so please don't throw a stone at me :-)

Actually I had a very similar idea a few months ago, as I'll explain below.
 
> If we could provide a device driver framework that is identical to M$
> Win95/98 DDK's one, then it would be a good incentive to the device
> driver developers to release a FreeBSD driver.  It's a sort of ``get the
> FreeBSD Win95 Compatibility DDK, compile your source on it, and there
> you go!'' type of thing.
> 
> Well, the resulting driver code probably will be less efficient than
> FreeBSD ``native'' drivers, but it's still better than nothing...

I don't think providing a new 'framework' to *write* FreeBSD drivers buys
you anything.  If you're going to write a *new* driver, write a standard one...
 
> Or maybe we could even maintain the binary compatibility with Win95
> device drivers, if Microsoft didn't plant anything secret in their DDK
> so that every device driver file would have some ``blackbox'' code.
> 

This is closer to the right idea.  I considered proposing the below to
-hackers, but since I have no time to implement such a grandiose idea,
I decided not to waste people's time.

My idea was that it would be most useful and practical if FreeBSD
supported WinNT (and some Win98) device drivers, as shipped by the OEM.
Why WinNT and not Win95?  Because WinNT drivers are more like Unix device
drivers.  They have well defined interfaces to the O/S, and are _not_
allowed to do whatever they want with the system.  Win95 VxD's, on the
other hand, have no such constraints, and are sort of a Wild, Wild, West
(do whatever they feel they need/want to do).

Microsoft NDIS (Network Driver Interface Specification) miniport drivers
(and SCSI miniport drivers) are clean interface .SYS drivers that also
run on Win98.  The newer WDM (Win32 Driver Model) drivers also have the
same binary for running on Win98 and WinNT and could be supported.

Supporting NDIS miniports on FreeBSD would be a good starting point.
Besides the obvious advantage of giving FreeBSD the ability to drive a
new piece of hardware *immediately* using the OEM (or chip manufacturer)
developed driver, where they know about all the 'quirks' of the hardware,
there is a subtler, but more important reason to support them.

As the main CPU has become more powerful, it has become possible to do
functions in software that have previously required dedicated hardware.
The advantage to this is lower cost hardware (something the computer
manufacturers demand these days).  The downside is that if a large part
of the functionality of a peripheral is in software, that peripheral
will only function on the O/S's for which the manufacturer wrote a
device driver.  And these days drivers are (mostly) being written only
for Win9x and WinNT by the manufacturers.

But, if FreeBSD provided (for example) an NDIS miniport framework, you
would be able to run your new 'gronkulator', including the software-
provided functionality.  This is quite possible technically (after all,
the miniport drivers are just x86 code, why couldn't we execute it?).
But providing the 'framework' means more than just providing a translation
API.  You also need to provide the calls (for example, initialization)
_into_ the NDIS driver that it expects.

This subject is dear to me because I've been working on NDIS drivers
for the past year for a new peripheral (chip) where some of the low-level
protocol is done in the driver.  Furthermore, due to the latest
'standards', we're being forced to include an object file in the driver
provided by a third party for which we won't get source code.  So the
*only* way this thing would ever work under FreeBSD is to be able to
directly execute the NDIS driver binary that we're developing...

So, yes, I think it's a "good" idea.  Whether anyone will ever get around
to making it work on FreeBSD is another question...

Gary

(just for the record, these are my opinions only, and not necessarily
 those of my employer...)

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 23:36:18 1998
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To: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), ctapang@easystreet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:25:06 +1000."
             <199809300225.MAA02467@cimlogic.com.au> 
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 23:24:33 -0700
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> > Interesting.  This parallels my ongoing work in rewriting FreeBSD in
> > GNU Emacs LISP.
> 
> I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java was
> the more portable solution.

Ah, but you should see locore.el - it's sheer beauty to behold! :-)

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 23:39:28 1998
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In-Reply-To: <20241.907136673@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Sep 29, 98 11:24:33 pm"
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > > Interesting.  This parallels my ongoing work in rewriting FreeBSD in
> > > GNU Emacs LISP.
> > 
> > I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java was
> > the more portable solution.
> 
> Ah, but you should see locore.el - it's sheer beauty to behold! :-)

Does it work in vi, or does that require nvi? I guess it probably requires
an async call gate. I must ask Terry. 8-)

-- 
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 23:41:09 1998
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On Wednesday, 30 September 1998 at 16:46:15 +1000, John Birrell wrote:
> Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>>>> Interesting.  This parallels my ongoing work in rewriting FreeBSD in
>>>> GNU Emacs LISP.
>>>
>>> I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java was
>>> the more portable solution.
>>
>> Ah, but you should see locore.el - it's sheer beauty to behold! :-)
>
> Does it work in vi, or does that require nvi? I guess it probably requires
> an async call gate. I must ask Terry. 8-)

No.  FreeBSD never ran on the 286, and for the same reasons it will
never run on vi.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Sep 29 23:43:54 1998
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> Funny. Probably more than 90% of the x86 world runs Windows. FreeBSD is a
> very good system, but not even 1% of the machines worldwide run it. All I
> want to do is make what's good in FreeBSD more acceptable to 90% of the
> world. FreeBSD dressed up as Windows has a better chance of conquering the
> desktop than FreeBSD by itself. You probably do not want to target the
> desktop, but that's where the real battle is going on. Linux is not the
> enemy, the enemy is much bigger: Windows; and your only chance of even
> touching Windows is to look like it.

Heh.  Speaking seriously for a second, your odds of actually
succeeding at this are roughly 1,323,430,499,213 to one (essentially
equivalent to the odds of Donny Osmond resurrecting his singing career
as a heavy metal rock star*).  Not only is the problem a rather
difficult one (and see WINE, Freedows, TWIN and the corpses of several
even more well funded attempts for evidence of this) but even if you
somehow got close through an act of sheer will and personal
brilliance, Microsoft would just move the goal posts on you every 3
months or so and spike your efforts.  They've done it before (to IBM
and others) and they can do it again.

Microsoft doesn't WANT competition from Windows at this level and the
ultimate accolade you could hope for, if you really did somehow
overcome all the technical hurdles and icky, messy, ugly evilness
necessary to truly emulating Windows95 enough to run all those Win32
applications (Office97 being the grail you seek), would be to get your
ass sued off by Microsoft.

Like I said.  "Good luck" :-)

- Jordan

* The fact that Pat Boone has already done this should be seen as
  a complete anomaly, sort of like a quantum vacuum fluctuation.

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Message-ID: <19980930161438.U16936@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:14:38 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
        John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
Cc: ctapang@easystreet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format?
References: <199809300225.MAA02467@cimlogic.com.au> <20241.907136673@time.cdrom.com>
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On Tuesday, 29 September 1998 at 23:24:33 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>>> Interesting.  This parallels my ongoing work in rewriting FreeBSD in
>>> GNU Emacs LISP.
>>
>> I thought it has decided that rewriting the FreeBSD kernel in Java was
>> the more portable solution.
>
> Ah, but you should see locore.el - it's sheer beauty to behold! :-)

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it.  I was particularly pleased by the
application of mapcar to the interrupt masks.

Greg
--
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:45:06 +0200
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: shmit@kublai.com
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Abbreviation (was: Re: Compelling reason for SCSI device name change)
References: <199809290516.XAA16815@narnia.plutotech.com> <199809290550.WAA20551@usr08.primenet.com> <19980929181822.T15172@freebie.lemis.com> <19980929110658.C307@kublai.com>
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On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:06:58AM -0400, Brian Cully wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 06:18:22PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > OK, let's try again, since Jordan obviously wasn't able to guess what
> > your question means.
> 
> ITYM Justin, HTH, HAND.

I see this set of abbreviations with some regularity, but have not yet
seen an explanation.  Have you got one for me?  Thanks!

Eivind.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 01:51:47 1998
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From: Marino Ladavac <lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
Subject: RE: Abbreviation (was: Re: Compelling reason for SCSI device nam
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On 30-Sep-98 Eivind Eklund wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:06:58AM -0400, Brian Cully wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 06:18:22PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> > OK, let's try again, since Jordan obviously wasn't able to guess what
>> > your question means.
>> 
>> ITYM Justin, HTH, HAND.
I think you mean(t) ... hope this helps(ed), have a nice day
> 
> I see this set of abbreviations with some regularity, but have not yet
> seen an explanation.  Have you got one for me?  Thanks!
> 
> Eivind.
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message

----------------------------------
Marino Ladavac
Date: 30-Sep-98
Time: 11:00:18
----------------------------------

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 01:54:13 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:46:05 +0100
From: Scott Mitchell <scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, shmit@kublai.com
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Abbreviation (was: Re: Compelling reason for SCSI device name change)
References: <199809290516.XAA16815@narnia.plutotech.com> <199809290550.WAA20551@usr08.primenet.com> <19980929181822.T15172@freebie.lemis.com> <19980929110658.C307@kublai.com> <19980930104506.29997@follo.net>
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On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 10:45:06AM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:06:58AM -0400, Brian Cully wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 06:18:22PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > > OK, let's try again, since Jordan obviously wasn't able to guess what
> > > your question means.
> > 
> > ITYM Justin, HTH, HAND.
> 
> I see this set of abbreviations with some regularity, but have not yet
> seen an explanation.  Have you got one for me?  Thanks!
> 
> Eivind.

AFAIK,

ITYM = I Think You Mean
HTH = Hope {This,That} Helps
HAND = Have A Nice Day

I probably have to kill you now that I've told you this ;)

Cheers,

	Scott.

-- 
===========================================================================
Scott Mitchell          | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just 
<scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>   | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat"
QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B |     -- J. S. Bach.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 02:08:12 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:07:14 +0200
From: Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org>
To: Jonathan Chen <jonc@pinnacle.co.nz>, Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD on Bavarian TV
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In <Pine.SGI.4.02.9809300907350.3119-100000@tui.pinnacle.co.nz>, Jonathan Chen wrote: 
> On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Martin Cracauer wrote:
> 
> > If you watched the German election broadcastings of Bavarian third
> > channel on Sunday and Monday, you could see the Laptop to my right
> > running FreeBSD. I haven't been successful to place a FreeBSD plushie
> > somewhere on the desk, I hope the knowledgeable will recognize 80x50
> > pcvt running tcpdump and emacs from Windows.
> 
> Too bad we don't have a std FreeBSD logo/wallpaper/banner for these TV
> moments. Its easy enough to recognise Windows and SGI machines from
> background shots. :-(
> 
> Ah well, perhaps maybe once the results for X-desktop competition
> comes in.

I'm afraid my little cacheless 486/dx50 with 8 MB will be no joy
running the winner of that contest, unless pcvt with emacs wins :-)

Martin
-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org> http://www.cons.org/cracauer
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  Paper: (private) Waldstrasse 200, 22846 Norderstedt, Germany

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 02:16:04 1998
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From: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Abbreviation (was: Re: Compelling reason for SCSI device name change)
References: <199809290516.XAA16815@narnia.plutotech.com> <199809290550.WAA20551@usr08.primenet.com> <19980929181822.T15172@freebie.lemis.com> <19980929110658.C307@kublai.com> <19980930104506.29997@follo.net>
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Hi,

On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 10:45:06AM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:06:58AM -0400, Brian Cully wrote:
> > ITYM Justin, HTH, HAND.
> 
> I see this set of abbreviations with some regularity, but have not yet
> seen an explanation.  Have you got one for me?  Thanks!

I Think You Misspelled Justin, Hope That Helps, Have A Nice Day.

See http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/afw/afw.acronyms.html or read
alt.fan.warlord.

Regards,
 -Jeremy

-- 
.sig.gz

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 02:24:17 1998
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Subject: Re: Abbreviation (was: Re: Compelling reason for SCSI device name change)
References: <199809290516.XAA16815@narnia.plutotech.com> <199809290550.WAA20551@usr08.primenet.com> <19980929181822.T15172@freebie.lemis.com> <19980929110658.C307@kublai.com> <19980930104506.29997@follo.net> <19980930094605.I4468@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
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Scott Mitchell wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 10:45:06AM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:06:58AM -0400, Brian Cully wrote:
> > > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 06:18:22PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > > > OK, let's try again, since Jordan obviously wasn't able to guess what
> > > > your question means.
> > >
> > > ITYM Justin, HTH, HAND.
> >
> > I see this set of abbreviations with some regularity, but have not yet
> > seen an explanation.  Have you got one for me?  Thanks!
> >
> > Eivind.
> 
> AFAIK,
> 
> ITYM = I Think You Mean
> HTH = Hope {This,That} Helps
> HAND = Have A Nice Day
> 

OK, since we're on the subject of abbreviations, what about NIH?


> I probably have to kill you now that I've told you this ;)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
>         Scott.
> 
> --
> ===========================================================================
> Scott Mitchell          | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just
> <scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>   | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat"
> QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B |     -- J. S. Bach.
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message

-- 
  When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.

Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd
Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions
mailto:marko@uk.radan.com    http://www.radan.com

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 02:26:02 1998
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From: Scott Mitchell <scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
To: Mark Ovens <marko@uk.radan.com>
Cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, shmit@kublai.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Abbreviation (was: Re: Compelling reason for SCSI device name change)
References: <199809290516.XAA16815@narnia.plutotech.com> <199809290550.WAA20551@usr08.primenet.com> <19980929181822.T15172@freebie.lemis.com> <19980929110658.C307@kublai.com> <19980930104506.29997@follo.net> <19980930094605.I4468@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> <3611F866.A98A76CE@uk.radan.com>
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On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 10:22:46AM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote:
> Scott Mitchell wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 10:45:06AM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> > > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:06:58AM -0400, Brian Cully wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 06:18:22PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > > > > OK, let's try again, since Jordan obviously wasn't able to guess what
> > > > > your question means.
> > > >
> > > > ITYM Justin, HTH, HAND.
> > >
> > > I see this set of abbreviations with some regularity, but have not yet
> > > seen an explanation.  Have you got one for me?  Thanks!
> > >
> > > Eivind.
> > 
> > AFAIK,
> > 
> > ITYM = I Think You Mean
> > HTH = Hope {This,That} Helps
> > HAND = Have A Nice Day
> > 
> 
> OK, since we're on the subject of abbreviations, what about NIH?

Not Invented Here.

> 
> > I probably have to kill you now that I've told you this ;)
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> >         Scott.
> > 
> > --
> > ===========================================================================
> > Scott Mitchell          | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just
> > <scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>   | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat"
> > QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B |     -- J. S. Bach.
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
> 
> -- 
>   When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.
> 
> Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd
> Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions
> mailto:marko@uk.radan.com    http://www.radan.com

-- 
===========================================================================
Scott Mitchell          | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just 
<scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>   | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat"
QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B |     -- J. S. Bach.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 04:21:00 1998
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From: Marino Ladavac <lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at>
To: Mark Ovens <marko@uk.radan.com>
Subject: Re: Abbreviation (was: Re: Compelling reason for SCSI device nam
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, shmit@kublai.com, Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>,
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On 30-Sep-98 Mark Ovens wrote:
> Scott Mitchell wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 10:45:06AM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
>> > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:06:58AM -0400, Brian Cully wrote:
>> > > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 06:18:22PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> > > > OK, let's try again, since Jordan obviously wasn't able to guess what
>> > > > your question means.
>> > >
>> > > ITYM Justin, HTH, HAND.
>> >
>> > I see this set of abbreviations with some regularity, but have not yet
>> > seen an explanation.  Have you got one for me?  Thanks!
>> >
>> > Eivind.
>> 
>> AFAIK,
>> 
>> ITYM = I Think You Mean
>> HTH = Hope {This,That} Helps
>> HAND = Have A Nice Day
>> 
> 
> OK, since we're on the subject of abbreviations, what about NIH?

NIH was Not Invented Here; you should ask our friends in L* camp :)

/Marino

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 04:47:22 1998
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To: Marino Ladavac <lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Abbreviation (was: Re: Compelling reason for SCSI device nam
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Marino Ladavac wrote:
> 
> On 30-Sep-98 Mark Ovens wrote:
> > Scott Mitchell wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 10:45:06AM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> >> > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:06:58AM -0400, Brian Cully wrote:
> >> > > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 06:18:22PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> >> > > > OK, let's try again, since Jordan obviously wasn't able to guess what
> >> > > > your question means.
> >> > >
> >> > > ITYM Justin, HTH, HAND.
> >> >
> >> > I see this set of abbreviations with some regularity, but have not yet
> >> > seen an explanation.  Have you got one for me?  Thanks!
> >> >
> >> > Eivind.
> >>
> >> AFAIK,
> >>
> >> ITYM = I Think You Mean
> >> HTH = Hope {This,That} Helps
> >> HAND = Have A Nice Day
> >>
> >
> > OK, since we're on the subject of abbreviations, what about NIH?
> 
> NIH was Not Invented Here; you should ask our friends in L* camp :)

That was the context I saw it in...

"...I'm quite tired of the totally non-portable
stuff that Linux perpetrates with its NIH
syndrome."

> 
> /Marino

-- 
  When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.

Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd
Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions
mailto:marko@uk.radan.com    http://www.radan.com

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 06:29:40 1998
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From: "Carlos C. Tapang" <ctapang@easystreet.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: "John Birrell" <jb@cimlogic.com.au>, "Greg Lehey" <grog@lemis.com>,
        <chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format? 
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 07:26:49 -0700
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>Heh.  Speaking seriously for a second, your odds of actually
>succeeding at this are roughly 1,323,430,499,213 to one (essentially
>equivalent to the odds of Donny Osmond resurrecting his singing career
>as a heavy metal rock star*).  Not only is the problem a rather
>difficult one (and see WINE, Freedows, TWIN and the corpses of several
>even more well funded attempts for evidence of this) but even if you
>somehow got close through an act of sheer will and personal
>brilliance, Microsoft would just move the goal posts on you every 3
>months or so and spike your efforts.  They've done it before (to IBM
>and others) and they can do it again.

Thanks for the serious response. I have seen WINE, but could you give
me pointers to the other attempts you mentioned?

Being a little quixotic sometimes does't hurt. Microsoft is a paper tiger.
Do you think they can move the goal posts so drastically that you can't
catch up? They can not risk even a few of the gazillion Windows applications
from failing to run on their next version. In fact, Windows 98 still runs
real-mode apps. And that's the reason it's so ugly.

>
>Microsoft doesn't WANT competition from Windows at this level and the
>ultimate accolade you could hope for, if you really did somehow
>overcome all the technical hurdles and icky, messy, ugly evilness
>necessary to truly emulating Windows95 enough to run all those Win32
>applications (Office97 being the grail you seek), would be to get your
>ass sued off by Microsoft.

Your fear of Microsoft is verging on the irrational. Before Microsoft sues
a puny outfit, they better consider how their other enemies (including
the Justice Department and other unholy alliances such as Ralph
Nader's) would react. THEY are afraid of us more than we are afraid
of them. They certainly can not fight a "rag-tag" band of talented
people, scattered all over the world, building systems as complex
as FreeBSD.


>
>* The fact that Pat Boone has already done this should be seen as
>  a complete anomaly, sort of like a quantum vacuum fluctuation.
>

Heroes are, by definition, few and far between. Yes, they are an
anomaly. Fear not: the Internet and the bazaar mode of software
development are powerful weapons at your disposal.

--Carlos




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 06:44:55 1998
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To: "Carlos C. Tapang" <ctapang@easystreet.com>
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        chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable Executable (PE) format? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Sep 1998 07:26:49 PDT."
             <002901bdec7e$5d79a6d0$0d787880@apex> 
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 06:33:16 -0700
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> Thanks for the serious response. I have seen WINE, but could you give
> me pointers to the other attempts you mentioned?

AltaVista is your friend.  Search for WINE, WABI, Freedows and visit
www.willows.com.  You'll get far more information that way than
I could ever provide you.

> Being a little quixotic sometimes does't hurt. Microsoft is a paper tiger.
> Do you think they can move the goal posts so drastically that you can't
> catch up? They can not risk even a few of the gazillion Windows applications
> from failing to run on their next version. In fact, Windows 98 still runs
> real-mode apps. And that's the reason it's so ugly.

Yes, I do think they can move the goal posts that drastically.  And
emulating real-mode apps is not the problem - we do most of that
already.  It's emulating all of the latest Windows apps that
constitutes the real challenge here and saying that the problem of
running Win32 apps is no more complex than that of running older
real-mode apps sort of indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the
problem.

> Your fear of Microsoft is verging on the irrational. Before Microsoft sues
> a puny outfit, they better consider how their other enemies (including
> the Justice Department and other unholy alliances such as Ralph

Microsoft sues puny outfits all the time.  Go do a little research on
them, beyond what you read in the headlines, and you'll find that
Microsoft still essentially doesn't give a tinker's damn for public
opinion given that they only seem to get "caught" at 1/10th of what
they actually do on any given week.

> Heroes are, by definition, few and far between. Yes, they are an
> anomaly. Fear not: the Internet and the bazaar mode of software
> development are powerful weapons at your disposal.

Oh dear, I almost expect him to start waving a sword and pointing
dramatically towards Palestine next. :-)

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 07:27:11 1998
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From: Marino Ladavac <lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at>
To: Mark Ovens <marko@uk.radan.com>
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On 30-Sep-98 Mark Ovens wrote:
>> NIH was Not Invented Here; you should ask our friends in L* camp :)
> 
> That was the context I saw it in...
> 
> "...I'm quite tired of the totally non-portable
> stuff that Linux perpetrates with its NIH
> syndrome."

I thought so.  Myself, I'm sick and tired of their non-portable
reimplementations of standard interfaces, only for the sake that
they can say that they have defined it themselves.  That's why I
said that one should ask them about Not Invented Here syndrome.

/Marino
> 

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 07:27:52 1998
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Comeon now, you folks haven't seen SoftWindows on an Ultra?  Runs all the
office apps, Outlook, and other "corporate communications" apps fine.
Same with the Mac.

A friend of mine actually has a G3 powerbook with both SoftWindows and
VirtualPC.  It's quite usable, and he can have mac, windows, and NetBSD
(FBSD doesn't like VirtPC) apps all running at once.  Odd to see, but it
suits his needs very well...

Charles

---
Charles Sprickman
spork@super-g.com
--- 
                     "...there's no idea that's so good you can't 
                      ruin it with a few well-placed idiots." 

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> > Funny. Probably more than 90% of the x86 world runs Windows. FreeBSD is a
> > very good system, but not even 1% of the machines worldwide run it. All I
> > want to do is make what's good in FreeBSD more acceptable to 90% of the
> > world. FreeBSD dressed up as Windows has a better chance of conquering the
> > desktop than FreeBSD by itself. You probably do not want to target the
> > desktop, but that's where the real battle is going on. Linux is not the
> > enemy, the enemy is much bigger: Windows; and your only chance of even
> > touching Windows is to look like it.
> 
> Heh.  Speaking seriously for a second, your odds of actually
> succeeding at this are roughly 1,323,430,499,213 to one (essentially
> equivalent to the odds of Donny Osmond resurrecting his singing career
> as a heavy metal rock star*).  Not only is the problem a rather
> difficult one (and see WINE, Freedows, TWIN and the corpses of several
> even more well funded attempts for evidence of this) but even if you
> somehow got close through an act of sheer will and personal
> brilliance, Microsoft would just move the goal posts on you every 3
> months or so and spike your efforts.  They've done it before (to IBM
> and others) and they can do it again.
> 
> Microsoft doesn't WANT competition from Windows at this level and the
> ultimate accolade you could hope for, if you really did somehow
> overcome all the technical hurdles and icky, messy, ugly evilness
> necessary to truly emulating Windows95 enough to run all those Win32
> applications (Office97 being the grail you seek), would be to get your
> ass sued off by Microsoft.
> 
> Like I said.  "Good luck" :-)
> 
> - Jordan
> 
> * The fact that Pat Boone has already done this should be seen as
>   a complete anomaly, sort of like a quantum vacuum fluctuation.
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
> 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 07:36:56 1998
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Subject: Re: What would it take to build the FreeBSD kernel into Portable
To: spork@super-g.com (spork)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:36:21 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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> 
> Comeon now, you folks haven't seen SoftWindows on an Ultra?  Runs all the
> office apps, Outlook, and other "corporate communications" apps fine.
> Same with the Mac.
> 
> A friend of mine actually has a G3 powerbook with both SoftWindows and
> VirtualPC.  It's quite usable, and he can have mac, windows, and NetBSD
> (FBSD doesn't like VirtPC) apps all running at once.  Odd to see, but it
> suits his needs very well...
> 
> Charles
> 
> ---
> Charles Sprickman
> spork@super-g.com
> --- 

Works great on the Ultras at work.  They're considering a Linux version
according to Slashdot.  I wrote asking for a FreeBSD version.

I also sent the message to my Insignia Sales Rep...

Bill

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 08:03:40 1998
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To: spork <spork@super-g.com>
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:25:12 EDT."
             <Pine.BSF.4.00.9809301022390.8712-100000@super-g.inch.com> 
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 07:51:45 -0700
Message-ID: <22735.907167105@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Comeon now, you folks haven't seen SoftWindows on an Ultra?  Runs all the
> office apps, Outlook, and other "corporate communications" apps fine.
> Same with the Mac.

You come on now, that's a rather different class of application than
writing an OS simulation layer for the Win32 environment.  The
SoftWindows / SoftPC dealies emulate an entire virtual machine so of
course they "succeed" somewhat more than those groups who attempt to
make it all run side-by-side on a single virtual machine. :-)

I've heard that the SoftPC solutions are getting faster now with JIT
machine-code translators and other such techniques for making
emulation of the target machine a lot less expensive, but that doesn't
seem to be the direction any of the free emulator projects (like
Bochs) have taken yet.  If you want an exercise in severe pain, go set
up a Win95 environment under Bochs (www.freebsd.org/~jkh/do-this-m$!.jpg)
and run your Outlook application under that for starters. :-)

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 08:36:15 1998
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From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
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Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote:
> 
> I'm descended into the scary world of xwindows programming and am
> looking for some help. :)
> 
> I seem to recall last year there was a heated debate on -chat regarding
> gui design, flaws/etc of various products out there. I'm hoping some of
> the battle-scared survivors are still around and able to point me
> towards any (preferably online) documentation/papers on how to design
> *good* graphic user interfaces.
> 
> Any tips, pointers etc would be much appreciated.

Suprisingly enough, good GUI design doesn't just happen -- look at
the violence Microsoft has done to good design.  Ugh!  And to think
that every manager in every software company on the whole planet
WANTS their GUI to look like Word.  The end of usability as we used
to know it.

My introduction to GUI design came way back when I was helping a 
friend write an "othello" game for the Atari ST.  He worked on the
game engine and I worked on the ST graphics part.  I had been 
following a series of columns written by one of the designers of
the GEM ui system at Digital Research, Tim Oren.  In that series, 
Mr. Oren presented a column that was an introduction to user 
interface design.  I've managed to track down that column and 
HTML-ify it.  I've placed it on my web site at

 http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr/gem08.html

for your reading pleasure.  The references to GEM probably won't 
help you much, but they are few and far between; the article mostly 
covers the basics of good user interface design.  The bibliography 
is an excellent guide to learning user interface design as well.

    Note: the article text I retrieve didn't have a copyright on 
    it.  I do not recall a copyright on the original text back in 
    85 or 86.  If anyone out there knows of a copyright on this 
    material, please tell me so I can contact the copyright holder 
    or remove it from my web site.

To this list, I would add two books.  The first, "Tog on Interface,"
was written by Bruce Tognazzini (sp?) while he was at Apple.  It's
quite a good book to get you to think about what it is your program
does *for the user,* and how to make it do *that* better.

The second book, if your program crunches numbers or statistical 
data in any way, is "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information" 
by Edward R. Tufte.  If you need to display masses of numbers to
people who don't grok masses of numbers, this book will help you
display them in meaningful ways.

-- 
       "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters                                                 Softweyr LLC
http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr                      wes@softweyr.com

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 08:48:15 1998
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>supported WinNT (and some Win98) device drivers, as shipped by the OEM.
>Why WinNT and not Win95?  Because WinNT drivers are more like Unix device
>drivers.  They have well defined interfaces to the O/S, and are _not_

Having written NT device drivers myself I can totally agree with this. The NT 
kernel-level interface is very nice and quite clean. (i.e. they actually 
designed more or less all of it before they started coding, which is almost 
certainly not the case with Windows. [At least, if it is the case with 
Windows, then I'd suspect they were smoking something other than tobacco at 
the time]).

It would be within the realms of possibility to write support code that made 
an NT driver think it was running under an NT kernel within FreeBSD. 
(Remember, folks, the NT kernel is not the same as the Win32 API - it sits 
above the kernel and doesn't have to be emulated for a device driver to work, 
so many of the issues the WINE folk have to deal with aren't here).

-- Chris



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 09:22:37 1998
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Wes Peters wrote:
> The second book, if your program crunches numbers or statistical
> data in any way, is "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information"
> by Edward R. Tufte.

An excellent recommendation.

Tufte's second book, "Envisioning Information," actually has some
material on computer/user interface design: see chapter 5, "Color and
Information."  Whereas his first book, "Visual Display..." gave advice
on how to depict numeric data, "Envisioning Information" tells how to
effectively display nonnumerics.

Finally, I cannot over-recommend the wonderful Interface Hall of Shame:

	http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm

I won't say more about the site ... just take a look!

--Sean

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 09:34:08 1998
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Wes Peters wrote:
-snip-
> Suprisingly enough, good GUI design doesn't just happen -- look at
> the violence Microsoft has done to good design.  Ugh!  And to think
> that every manager in every software company on the whole planet
> WANTS their GUI to look like Word.  The end of usability as we used
> to know it.

Thats true... Ever tried to configure M$-PROXY? That is the far the
badest GUI design I ever saw! And IE4 is not far from it... like
the whole xxx98 stuff...

> My introduction to GUI design came way back when I was helping a
> friend write an "othello" game for the Atari ST.  He worked on the
> game engine and I worked on the ST graphics part.  I had been
> following a series of columns written by one of the designers of
> the GEM ui system at Digital Research, Tim Oren.  In that series,
> Mr. Oren presented a column that was an introduction to user
> interface design.  I've managed to track down that column and
> HTML-ify it.  I've placed it on my web site at
> 
>  http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr/gem08.html
> 
> for your reading pleasure.  The references to GEM probably won't
> help you much, but they are few and far between; the article mostly
> covers the basics of good user interface design.  The bibliography
> is an excellent guide to learning user interface design as well.

Another good book I can recommend is the "Indigo Magic User Interface
Guidelines" from Silicon Graphics. I don't know if that is online and
my version is almost three years old. This guide gives an good overview
and step-by-step instructions on how to build a GUI for an application.

The two most important rules are:

1. place the stuff where is belongs (don't put "Options" under "View"
   like in IE, put it under "Edit" like in Netscape)

2. Only one way to the setting/option (not three or more like in
Outlook)

-snip-
-- 
Andre

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 09:43:20 1998
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From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
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Subject: Drawing tools
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Thinking about what I usually want to illustrate, I find that it tend to
boil down into relations between different boxes, where the actual layout
isn't too important - there are a number of constraints ("this should mirror
that", "this line should connect these two boxes", "this circle should be
above this box") and apart from that I don't care, as long as the result is
reasonably coherent.

This sounds like it is clearly doable by graph-organization algorithms, and
thus it sounds likely that somebody has done it :-)

Do any of you know of usable software that does this?  I'm not looking for
PIC - I'm looking for something that does much more on its own, after I've
just specificed the constraints.  I don't really care if I specify the
constraints in a GUI or text file (with a slight preference for text).

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 09:51:54 1998
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Was the CC list long enough?

Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> Bochs) have taken yet.  If you want an exercise in severe pain, go set
> up a Win95 environment under Bochs (www.freebsd.org/~jkh/do-this-m$!.jpg)
> and run your Outlook application under that for starters. :-)
> 
> - Jordan

After viewing that JPEG, a sudden bit of silliness hit me: FreeBSD
running under FreeBSD. FreeBSD squared. A bit silly, yes. But if Linux
can be run...
-- 
Kris Kirby 
UAH Mail <kirbyk@email.uah.edu> UAH CS <kkirby@cs.uah.edu>
Home     <kris@airnet.net>      WWW <nomurphy@hotmail.com>
-------------------------------------------
TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 10:03:22 1998
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Hallam Oaks P/L list account wrote:
> 
> >supported WinNT (and some Win98) device drivers, as shipped by the OEM.
> >Why WinNT and not Win95?  Because WinNT drivers are more like Unix device
> >drivers.  They have well defined interfaces to the O/S, and are _not_
> 
> Having written NT device drivers myself I can totally agree with this. The NT
> kernel-level interface is very nice and quite clean. (i.e. they actually
> designed more or less all of it before they started coding, which is almost
> certainly not the case with Windows. [At least, if it is the case with
> Windows, then I'd suspect they were smoking something other than tobacco at
> the time]).

Yea, something like NDIS is not bad. But you know the current
architectual
problems of *BSD. Severeal subsystems need an general overhaul
(filesystem-
stacking (hi Terry!), device handling (hi Julian), network (pointer to
ALTQ))
and decent documentation.

The problem is to find someone who actually does it...

Beside I'd like to throw another (IMO) important point in the
discussion:
Documentation is the key to success. Students, Researchers and
Developers
look for something that they can fast and easiely understand. The choice
is based on the documentation of the paticular system. Noone has the
time
or energy to read and understand the source completely befor beginning
with programming.

This is one of the biggest problems of the free OS community (*BSD and
Linux). There is no or old documentation available. I'd like to mention
some of the recent questions that came up:
- how to write an LKM (no real docs avail, some input from Terry)
- how to write an Network driver ("copy an existing one and modify it")
- how to make an sysctl (outdated documentation)
- how to write an SCSI driver (docs not yet avail.)
- how to integrate a new FS (no docs avail.)
... and so on ...

These points make the decision easy for contributors to NOT choose
FreeBSD. Specially in the academic world is documetation important.
If they want to write something to do research on it they don't want
to read the whole OS just to get the API's... and this takes us away
a huge portion of great projects that could be done on FreeBSD but
isn't just because they don't know how it would interface.

PS: Don't flame me like Amancio! This should only lead to an discussion
of how things *should* be done and not *who* will do it.

-snip-
-- 
Andre

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To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: James Love <love@cptech.org> (by way of Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>)
Subject: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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Oh-oh. Guys, it looks as if Intel is throwing its hat in the
Linux arena and is guaranteeing help with the development of
device drivers. But there's no mention of it doing the same
for any of the *BSDs. Will this consign them to permanent
second-class status?

--Brett

-------------------


http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/in092998.htm


"Intel has spent a lot of time over the last year and a half
with ISPs learning about their business and technology
requirements," said Sean Maloney, Intel Vice President and
director of the sales and marketing group. "ISPs require
support for a range of operating systems - from Windows NT to
UNIX and Linux. We want to ensure that all of these operating
systems run optimally on the Intel Architecture." 

Intel initiatives in the Linux arena include the following: 

*   Technical efforts including an Intel technical and
    engineering liaison to the Linux community; work with
    the I20 special interest group (SIG) and Project UDI
    (Uniform Driver Interface) to enable greater
    availability of Linux device drivers for Intel-based
    servers; and additional optimization efforts to ensure
    Linux is optimized for future Intel processors. 

*   Formation of an Intel Linux User Group, kicked off by a
    special appearance by Linus Torvalds at the Intel Oregon
    campus last week. 

*   Membership in Linux International 

"The initiatives Intel is announcing today indicate the
relationship between Intel and the Linux community is growing
stronger," said Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux. "Our
combined efforts will enable the expansion of Linux OS
performance and services that will drive more mainstream
acceptance of Linux." 


-- 
James Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
http://www.cptech.org love@cptech.org
202.387.8030, fax 202.234.5176


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 10:43:00 1998
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:19:02 MDT."
             <199809301731.LAA17481@lariat.lariat.org> 
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[Redirected just to -chat; for the last time, cross posting is not desired!]

> Oh-oh. Guys, it looks as if Intel is throwing its hat in the
> Linux arena and is guaranteeing help with the development of
> device drivers. But there's no mention of it doing the same
> for any of the *BSDs. Will this consign them to permanent
> second-class status?

No.  And what's with all the chicken-little stuff going around these
days, guys?  It's really self-defeating and rather unnecessary to
boot.  If nobody is embracing free software, we cry and moan.  If
people are embracing free software, but just not our particular flavor
of the moment, we cry and moan some more.  Conveniently forgotten in
all of this is the fact that this is all new territory for the likes
of Intel and OF COURSE they're going to go courting the Linux folks as
an obvious first choice because they are, well, the obvious first
choice.

Being the first and obvious choice comes from having millions of users
and lots of magazine coverage and LOTS and LOTS of BOOKS in the
bookstores and all the other indicators which people with suits on are
bound to look at before jumping into any new fad (and let's face it,
that's what we're looking at right now).  People aren't going to start
knocking down our doors with movie deals and autograph books just
because we all really really want that to happen or because we know
FreeBSD Is The Right Solution or any of that stuff, it'll happen when
a certain critical mass has been achieved and the time for that to
happen has been reached.

Personally, I think people need to get busy in the book department if
they want to see FreeBSD start going places faster (or they need to be
content with it getting there not quite as fast).  All this kvetching
in mailing lists that Opinion Leaders(tm) don't even read doesn't get
us anywhere.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:01:15 1998
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On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> You come on now, that's a rather different class of application than
> writing an OS simulation layer for the Win32 environment.  The
> SoftWindows / SoftPC dealies emulate an entire virtual machine so of
> course they "succeed" somewhat more than those groups who attempt to
> make it all run side-by-side on a single virtual machine. :-)

I'll let it die here, but I just want to clarify that I don't care how
it's done or if it costs a bit (SoftWindows).  My only goal is to run with
my hardware and OS of choice as the "base", but not be shut out from
occasionally using Photoshop, MediaStudio, or even (blech!!) Outlook.
It's nice to walk into an office where they've "standardized" on an app
like outlook and see that half of the people there are using Macs and Suns
to run it.  That's a few more desks unchained from the mediocrity of
windows9x.

So while some of the free projects are a different idea, and they are slow
to develop, at least there are commercial alternatives that work well...

And you really can't imagine how bad-ass a G3 powerbook looks running
three OS'es at once.  (That's NetBSD primarily for Apache, MacOS because
he really likes the desktop, and Windows for office mail/planning via
outlook)

Charles

> 
> I've heard that the SoftPC solutions are getting faster now with JIT
> machine-code translators and other such techniques for making
> emulation of the target machine a lot less expensive, but that doesn't
> seem to be the direction any of the free emulator projects (like
> Bochs) have taken yet.  If you want an exercise in severe pain, go set
> up a Win95 environment under Bochs (www.freebsd.org/~jkh/do-this-m$!.jpg)
> and run your Outlook application under that for starters. :-)
> 
> - Jordan
> 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:06:35 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:05:38 -0600
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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Jordan:

With all due respect, I think you are being too conciliatory. FreeBSD
*is* falling behind. (Where's the CAM support for all those SCSI 
host adapters? Where's a production-level version of SMP?)
Worse still, Walnut Creek seems to be doing just about ZIP to promote 
FreeBSD, in the face of a groundswell of publicity for Linux. It
had the chance to be Red Hat before Red Hat existed, and blew it.

This neglect at a crucial time could reduce FreeBSD to a weakly
supported, largely ignored, niche OS without anywhere near critical
mass.

My gut feeling -- and my gut has a pretty darn good track record when
it comes to industry trends -- is that it's a do-or-die situation
RIGHT NOW. FreeBSD needs some serious leadership, advocacy, and
investment ASAP. The ball is rolling around aimlessly on the field;
who's gonna pick up the fumble and run for the goal line?

--Brett


At 10:31 AM 9/30/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>[Redirected just to -chat; for the last time, cross posting is not desired!]
>
>> Oh-oh. Guys, it looks as if Intel is throwing its hat in the
>> Linux arena and is guaranteeing help with the development of
>> device drivers. But there's no mention of it doing the same
>> for any of the *BSDs. Will this consign them to permanent
>> second-class status?
>
>No.  And what's with all the chicken-little stuff going around these
>days, guys?  It's really self-defeating and rather unnecessary to
>boot.  If nobody is embracing free software, we cry and moan.  If
>people are embracing free software, but just not our particular flavor
>of the moment, we cry and moan some more.  Conveniently forgotten in
>all of this is the fact that this is all new territory for the likes
>of Intel and OF COURSE they're going to go courting the Linux folks as
>an obvious first choice because they are, well, the obvious first
>choice.
>
>Being the first and obvious choice comes from having millions of users
>and lots of magazine coverage and LOTS and LOTS of BOOKS in the
>bookstores and all the other indicators which people with suits on are
>bound to look at before jumping into any new fad (and let's face it,
>that's what we're looking at right now).  People aren't going to start
>knocking down our doors with movie deals and autograph books just
>because we all really really want that to happen or because we know
>FreeBSD Is The Right Solution or any of that stuff, it'll happen when
>a certain critical mass has been achieved and the time for that to
>happen has been reached.
>
>Personally, I think people need to get busy in the book department if
>they want to see FreeBSD start going places faster (or they need to be
>content with it getting there not quite as fast).  All this kvetching
>in mailing lists that Opinion Leaders(tm) don't even read doesn't get
>us anywhere.
>
>- Jordan
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:15:18 1998
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On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

>No.  And what's with all the chicken-little stuff going around these
>days, guys?  It's really self-defeating and rather unnecessary to
>boot.

Here Here! The world is not falling. The sky is not coming to an end.
FreeBSD is under active development and is getting better every day.

While some decry the impending doom of FreeBSD I am going to proclaim it's
growth. I now have TWO converts under my belt as well as a convert once
removed. I haven't taken a full page ad out in the Times, but I do what I
can.

FreeBSD continues to improve and grow. This is a Good Thing(tm).

Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:22:12 1998
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It would seem to me that there is a very symbiotic relationship between
Linux/FreeBSD/NetBSD etc...  won't the success of one help the other
platform... since they are so simliar?
jamie



Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> 
> [Redirected just to -chat; for the last time, cross posting is not desired!]
> 
> > Oh-oh. Guys, it looks as if Intel is throwing its hat in the
> > Linux arena and is guaranteeing help with the development of
> > device drivers. But there's no mention of it doing the same
> > for any of the *BSDs. Will this consign them to permanent
> > second-class status?
> 
> No.  And what's with all the chicken-little stuff going around these
> days, guys?  It's really self-defeating and rather unnecessary to
> boot.  If nobody is embracing free software, we cry and moan.  If
> people are embracing free software, but just not our particular flavor
> of the moment, we cry and moan some more.  Conveniently forgotten in
> all of this is the fact that this is all new territory for the likes
> of Intel and OF COURSE they're going to go courting the Linux folks as
> an obvious first choice because they are, well, the obvious first
> choice.
> 
> Being the first and obvious choice comes from having millions of users
> and lots of magazine coverage and LOTS and LOTS of BOOKS in the
> bookstores and all the other indicators which people with suits on are
> bound to look at before jumping into any new fad (and let's face it,
> that's what we're looking at right now).  People aren't going to start
> knocking down our doors with movie deals and autograph books just
> because we all really really want that to happen or because we know
> FreeBSD Is The Right Solution or any of that stuff, it'll happen when
> a certain critical mass has been achieved and the time for that to
> happen has been reached.
> 
> Personally, I think people need to get busy in the book department if
> they want to see FreeBSD start going places faster (or they need to be
> content with it getting there not quite as fast).  All this kvetching
> in mailing lists that Opinion Leaders(tm) don't even read doesn't get
> us anywhere.
> 
> - Jordan

-- 
James Love, Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
202.387.8030; f 202.234.5176
http://www.cptech.org, mailto:love@cptech.org

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:24:26 1998
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My current understanding is this is a no brainer and nothing to worry
about. Thats just press fluff. FreeBSD is very well respected at intel
labs. And they will fork over anything we need. AFAIK.
So I wouldnt worry about it.

Chris

--
"You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is
driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't
tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters

===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
  FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now!  | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
   FreeBSD: The power to serve!    | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
      http://www.freebsd.org       | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security
===================================| http://open-systems.net 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:37:52 1998
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On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Brett Glass wrote:

Redirected to -chat to prevent crossposting.

>Jordan:
>
>This neglect at a crucial time could reduce FreeBSD to a weakly
>supported, largely ignored, niche OS without anywhere near critical
>mass.
>
>With all due respect, I think you are being too conciliatory. FreeBSD
>*is* falling behind. (Where's the CAM support for all those SCSI 
>host adapters? Where's a production-level version of SMP?)
>Worse still, Walnut Creek seems to be doing just about ZIP to promote 
>FreeBSD, in the face of a groundswell of publicity for Linux. It
>had the chance to be Red Hat before Red Hat existed, and blew it.
>
>My gut feeling -- and my gut has a pretty darn good track record when
>it comes to industry trends -- is that it's a do-or-die situation
>RIGHT NOW. FreeBSD needs some serious leadership, advocacy, and
>investment ASAP. The ball is rolling around aimlessly on the field;
>who's gonna pick up the fumble and run for the goal line?
>
>--Brett

How predictable.

How is FreeBSD's current situation any different from the inception of
FreeBSD with version 1.0 at the end of 1993? Given that the "ball" has
been rolling for almost five years now, FreeBSD was dead "niche OS" before
it started. It's amazing we came this far.

OBTW, I like this niche. I wonder if Ferrari kicks and screams that it
hasn't replaced the Civic in garages of every car owner with prancing
stallion adorned vehicle.

Whistle, Apple, and Oracle (and others that I do not know, I am sure) are
using/interested in FreeBSD. This is a great success.

Linux is not the enemy. I know that Brett believe's it with all his heart,
but Linux is not the enemy. Every success for Linux is a success for
FreeBSD.

Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:46:41 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:45:22 -0500
From: Kris Kirby <kris@airnet.net>
Organization: Absolutely None!
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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Jason C. Wells wrote:
> FreeBSD continues to improve and grow. This is a Good Thing(tm).
> 
> Catchya Later,          |       UW Mechanical Engineering
> Jason Wells             |       http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/

If everyone keeps trademarking everything, we aren't going to be able to
reply with out disclaimers! :-)
-- 
Kris Kirby 
UAH Mail <kirbyk@email.uah.edu> UAH CS <kkirby@cs.uah.edu>
Home     <kris@airnet.net>      WWW <nomurphy@hotmail.com>
-------------------------------------------
TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:55:01 1998
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To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:16:01 EDT."
             <36127561.48BA1020@cptech.org> 
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:43:14 -0700
Message-ID: <23792.907180994@time.cdrom.com>
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> It would seem to me that there is a very symbiotic relationship between
> Linux/FreeBSD/NetBSD etc...  won't the success of one help the other
> platform... since they are so simliar?

They do help one another, though not perhaps from their similarity so
much as the fact that the lines of demarcation simply aren't drawn
among the free software advocates.  As far as major market share is
concerned, the lines are drawn between the free software advocates and
the rest of the commercial world right now, and every convert Linux
wins away from NT is one more convert on the closer side of the line.
>From that point on, getting them to look at our stuff becomes about
100X easier than it was before, believe me.  If nothing else, they're
now reading slashdot instead of NT Focus and we get mentioned in
slashdot all the time. :-)

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:55:41 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:53:58 -0600
From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Organization: Softweyr LLC
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
CC: James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> 
> Personally, I think people need to get busy in the book department if
> they want to see FreeBSD start going places faster (or they need to be
> content with it getting there not quite as fast).  All this kvetching
> in mailing lists that Opinion Leaders(tm) don't even read doesn't get
> us anywhere.

Not to mention magazines and trade weeklies.  Why does Linux have coverage
in these venues?  Because Linux users have written articles about how to
do this or that with Linux?  Why don't these same publications carry 
articles about FreeBSD?  Because NOBODY is writing and submitting them.

Daemon News is a step in the right direction, but only a step.  More 
articles about FreeBSD, in the publications both techies AND managers
read, will inevitably lead to more users and more acceptance.  The high
quality and usability of FreeBSD will guarantee wins, if we can just get
it in front of their eyeballs.

It is also important to keep in mind that the growth of Linux directly
benefits all FreeBSD users as well.  Linux compatibility is one of the
most important features of FreeBSD.  As the market for commercial Linux
applications grows, so does the market for commercial FreeBSD applications.
As Jordan pointed out in his recent editorial, Linux applications *are*
FreeBSD applications.  ;^)

-- 
             Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?

Wes Peters                                                      +1.801.915.2061
Softweyr LLC                                                   wes@softweyr.com

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 11:58:46 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:58:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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I absolutely despise those scrollers in the info bar of my browser. In
Jordan's case I'll make an exception.

Of course, his hypnotism has absolutely no effect on me. 

Has anyone seen my Windows partition? I seem to have misplaced it. :)

I wonder if we can umm... _sneak_ this scroller into AltaVista or Yahoo.
Now there is a task for advocacy folks.
	
	BBC - London
	"An elite core of Crackeurs is waging war to hypnotize people into
	using a non-assimilated Operating System called "FreeBSD". These
	dangerous villains..."

Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 12:01:15 1998
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To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
cc: wghicks@remote.my.domain
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:14:52 PDT."
             <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9809301108060.1298-100000@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu> 
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:00:58 -0400
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> While some decry the impending doom of FreeBSD I am going to proclaim it's
> growth. I now have TWO converts under my belt as well as a convert once
> removed. I haven't taken a full page ad out in the Times, but I do what I
> can.

Agreed!  We've got several converts from Linux here too.  They'd rather
fight that switch (back).

I would rather see FreeBSD stay at its present level of mass acceptance for
some time anyway.  Being in the spotlight has a blinding effect sometimes.

Besides, the Intel/Linux announcement was good news to me.  I've been
most concerned about I20 being a vendor ploy to edge out the Free OS's.

Having Intel (and others) help with legitimizing our field of interest is
beneficial.

Cheers,

Jerry Hicks
jerry.hicks@glenayre.com

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 12:05:00 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:04:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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To: Kris Kirby <kris@airnet.net>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Trademarks Was: Device Drivers
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On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Kris Kirby wrote:

>Jason C. Wells wrote:
>> FreeBSD continues to improve and grow. This is a Good Thing(tm).

>If everyone keeps trademarking everything, we aren't going to be able to
>reply with out disclaimers! :-)
>-- 
>Kris Kirby 

Have you heard about my new software?

I call it Kris Kirby(tm). And BTW, about your use of trademarks to refer
to your person...

Catchya Later,(tm)	| UW Mechanical Engineering(tm)
Jason Wells(tm)		| http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/(tm)


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 12:10:28 1998
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To: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
cc: James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
        Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:53:58 MDT."
             <36127E46.C50BA0DF@softweyr.com> 
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:58:43 -0700
Message-ID: <23876.907181923@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Not to mention magazines and trade weeklies.  Why does Linux have coverage
> in these venues?  Because Linux users have written articles about how to
> do this or that with Linux?  Why don't these same publications carry 
> articles about FreeBSD?  Because NOBODY is writing and submitting them.

Hear hear.  I just finished writing one for Performance Computing and
have been, with the possible exception of Brett (who appears to do
just fine when he's banging a kettle in print rather than in email :),
one of the only people still trying to keep FreeBSD mentioned
occasionally in the american trade press.  That sucks.  I don't even
like writing articles. :)

The Japanese folks are still doing great things, of course, and the
Germans appear to be catching up with more articles in C't and other
related magazines from what I've been seeing lately.  So where the
heck are all the ENGLISH SPEAKING writers, folks?! :-) C'mon, just
1500 words or so for your favorite online computer mag (or even one
that's not your favorite) and you'll be getting us up into the same
viewspace that Linux is currently occupying.  For extra bonus points,
go for the print media.  Just get the word out!

> Daemon News is a step in the right direction, but only a step.  More 
> articles about FreeBSD, in the publications both techies AND managers
> read, will inevitably lead to more users and more acceptance.  The high
> quality and usability of FreeBSD will guarantee wins, if we can just get
> it in front of their eyeballs.

[Points aggressively at Wes]  Listen to this man!  Yes! :-)

- Jordan


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 12:46:46 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:46:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Marty Cawthon <mrc@ChipChat.com>
To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
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Hello BSDaemons,

  It isn't "Linux vs BSD" it's "Linux AND BSD"

  "Free and Open Software" is "Free and Open Software".
Different philosophies and implementations of "Free and Open Software"
are important to making things better.
  Linux, BSD, GNU, the Berkeley license, are complementary. They offer
people choice in the "Free and Open Software" world.

Marty Cawthon
ChipChat


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 13:36:21 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:33:17 -0700
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>> Being a little quixotic sometimes does't hurt. Microsoft is a paper
tiger.
>> Do you think they can move the goal posts so drastically that you can't
>> catch up? They can not risk even a few of the gazillion Windows
applications
>> from failing to run on their next version. In fact, Windows 98 still runs
>> real-mode apps. And that's the reason it's so ugly.
>
>Yes, I do think they can move the goal posts that drastically.  And
>emulating real-mode apps is not the problem - we do most of that
>already.  It's emulating all of the latest Windows apps that
>constitutes the real challenge here and saying that the problem of
>running Win32 apps is no more complex than that of running older
>real-mode apps sort of indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the
>problem.
>
You are absolutely correct.
I should have said "Windows 98 still runs real-mode drivers". Windows 98
still
allows loading DOS drivers (such as CD-ROM drivers) which means that it
calls down to DOS in V86 mode. It also calls down to the BIOS. While running
DOS driver code, the Virtual Machine Manager (VMM) is exposed because
its code and data are made writable by the driver code. It's ugly.

>> Your fear of Microsoft is verging on the irrational. Before Microsoft
sues
>> a puny outfit, they better consider how their other enemies (including
>> the Justice Department and other unholy alliances such as Ralph
>
>Microsoft sues puny outfits all the time.  Go do a little research on
>them, beyond what you read in the headlines, and you'll find that
>Microsoft still essentially doesn't give a tinker's damn for public
>opinion given that they only seem to get "caught" at 1/10th of what
>they actually do on any given week.
>
I do not deny that Microsoft does sue small and big companies alike,
but this time they are being more careful. BTW, just so you don't get
me wrong, I am not a Microsoft hater myself. I use Win NT right now,
but I've also got FreeBSD running on another machine. I agree that
Microsoft is too aggressive for their size, but nobody can hold on to
being at the top of the heap for too long. The free market and the onward
rush of technology will make Microsoft miss a step or two, and it will
stumble and fall like a house of cards. Look at IBM. It used to be number
one. It missed a step in the PC software market (no thanks to the
antitrust suit leveled against it for years), and came stumbling down to
the lower rungs of the computing world. I am not waiting for Microsoft
to come tumbling down. All I want is a Windows compatible system
that is almost free.

>> Heroes are, by definition, few and far between. Yes, they are an
>> anomaly. Fear not: the Internet and the bazaar mode of software
>> development are powerful weapons at your disposal.
>
>Oh dear, I almost expect him to start waving a sword and pointing
>dramatically towards Palestine next. :-)
>
I have actually written a business plan that is focused on this idea.
I don't have any venture capitalist  takers yet, but it will happen.
Contributors to this project will be granted stock option for shares of the
company formed. In this way, if the Windows clone succeeds, the
contributors will share the financial rewards. You will hear about this
project in 2 or 3 months. I will be announcing it to both the FreeBSD and
Linux communities.

--Carlos


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 15:04:38 1998
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To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
Cc: shmit@kublai.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Abbreviation (was: Re: Compelling reason for SCSI device name change)
References: <199809290516.XAA16815@narnia.plutotech.com> <199809290550.WAA20551@usr08.primenet.com> <19980929181822.T15172@freebie.lemis.com> <19980929110658.C307@kublai.com> <19980930104506.29997@follo.net>
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From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= )
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Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no> writes:
> On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:06:58AM -0400, Brian Cully wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 06:18:22PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > > OK, let's try again, since Jordan obviously wasn't able to guess what
> > > your question means.
> > ITYM Justin, HTH, HAND.
> I see this set of abbreviations with some regularity, but have not yet
> seen an explanation.  Have you got one for me?  Thanks!

Since I'm the one who started the trend :) I though I'd chip in and
say that whereas some other people translated it to "I think you
mean... hope this helps, have a nice day!" I prefer "I think you
mean... happy to help, have a nice day!"

Of course, I didn't invent that expression, so I'm not really
authoritative... I just use it a lot...

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 15:44:57 1998
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> 
> After viewing that JPEG, a sudden bit of silliness hit me: FreeBSD
> running under FreeBSD. FreeBSD squared. A bit silly, yes. But if Linux
> can be run...

I have been doing this for some time.  There are still some problems 
with Boch's hardware emulation which prevent it from running FreeBSD 
properly, but it's good enough for the bootstrap.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Sep 30 19:26:36 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 22:33:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob <drifter@localhost.net>
To: Andre Oppermann <oppermann@pipeline.ch>
cc: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>,
        freebsd chat <freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: gui design
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On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Andre Oppermann wrote:

 [ SNIP ]
> 
> Another good book I can recommend is the "Indigo Magic User Interface
> Guidelines" from Silicon Graphics. I don't know if that is online and
> my version is almost three years old. This guide gives an good overview
> and step-by-step instructions on how to build a GUI for an application.
> 
> The two most important rules are:
> 
> 1. place the stuff where is belongs (don't put "Options" under "View"
>    like in IE, put it under "Edit" like in Netscape)

     Actually, this might not go over real well with people, but I don't
see how either "Edit" or "View" have anything to do with options (save
"Edit those Options" or "Options that affect your View").  Putting
"Options" on the MAIN title bar -- even if "that's not how it's done,"
makes sense to me (seems more intuitive).
     Besides, there's plenty of room up there usually.  Also,
though I understand the arguments about "consistency," in some cases 
I don't think it really helps to force "File" and "Edit" on those few
applications where that doesn't make any sense ("Files" for a Game with no
file saving options? ).
     One last annoyance: main menu items like "File" that just have one
item underneath it "Quit"...

	Oh, well

	Just thought I get that off my chest :)

	-Rob

> 
> 2. Only one way to the setting/option (not three or more like in
> Outlook)
> 
> -snip-
> -- 
> Andre




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 00:02:03 1998
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:01:40 -0700
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: FreeBSD Retail page
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                         Retail outlets for FreeBSD


A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of
FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a
number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at

    (http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html).  

Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email,
and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you
friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD.


This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th.



-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 2.2.7
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 00:03:15 1998
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:02:54 -0700
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: FreeBSD Counter page
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                          FreeBSD Counter Project


The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have
put up the first public beta of it's counter page. The Counter project is
an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a 
very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used
and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to
ISVs and hardware and software vendors. 

You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can
be found at :

    http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html

Couple of caveats:

    * This is a beta release. It is not perfect and will have a few bugs
      and flaws. If you find any please let us know.

    * Suggestions and comments are welcome!

    * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations
      sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install
      chances are you are in this database. 

    * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the
      project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see
      this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spamers, direct
      marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. 



Josef (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com)

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 2.2.7
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 00:31:17 1998
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:29:58 +0200
From: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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Hi,

On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 11:43:14AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> From that point on, getting them to look at our stuff becomes about
> 100X easier than it was before, believe me.  If nothing else, they're
> now reading slashdot instead of NT Focus and we get mentioned in
> slashdot all the time. :-)

I think the Slashdot announcement of 3.0-BETA and the comments posted were
very telling.  For those that don't read slashdot, there were a number of
posts from Linux people saying they liked FreeBSD, and were very positive
about the quality and stability, even recommending it over Linux for
servers, and those that made anti-FreeBSD comments were shouted down by
(generally) other Linux advocates.

A number of people also seemed genuinely interested in looking into FreeBSD. 
It's interesting to note that you find plenty of Linux people converting to
FreeBSD but not many the other way around.

And a few Perl4 -> Perl5 comments... ;)

 -Jeremy  

-- 
.sig.gz

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 03:07:10 1998
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Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 10:12:04 +0200 (CEST)
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From: Marino Ladavac <lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
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On 30-Sep-98 Eivind Eklund wrote:
> Thinking about what I usually want to illustrate, I find that it tend to
> boil down into relations between different boxes, where the actual layout
> isn't too important - there are a number of constraints ("this should mirror
> that", "this line should connect these two boxes", "this circle should be
> above this box") and apart from that I don't care, as long as the result is
> reasonably coherent.
> 
> This sounds like it is clearly doable by graph-organization algorithms, and
> thus it sounds likely that somebody has done it :-)
> 
> Do any of you know of usable software that does this?  I'm not looking for
> PIC - I'm looking for something that does much more on its own, after I've
> just specificed the constraints.  I don't really care if I specify the
> constraints in a GUI or text file (with a slight preference for text).

vcg in ports/graphics

/Marino
> 
> Eivind.
> 
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----------------------------------
Marino Ladavac
Date: 01-Oct-98
Time: 10:11:35
----------------------------------

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Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com> writes:
> You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can
> be found at :
> 
>     http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html

I will, when you provide a registration form I can actually use.
(hint: which version of FreeBSD am I running?)

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 04:47:22 1998
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:46:42 +0200
From: Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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Brett,

would you *please*
- not crosspost to -chat and -advocacy?
- forward, not bounce mails. I just flamed the original author for
  crossposting. Thank you.

Martin
-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org> http://www.cons.org/cracauer
BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany     http://www.bsdhh.org/

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 05:36:20 1998
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 14:35:37 +0200
From: Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Books (Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement)
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In <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com>, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: 
> Personally, I think people need to get busy in the book department if
> they want to see FreeBSD start going places faster (or they need to be
> content with it getting there not quite as fast). 

I'm happy to report we have a new German book on Free/Net/OpenBSD. The
contents are sometimes head-shaking-triggering for long-term hackers,
but nothing serious as far as I can tell after a quick look.

It's professionally made, looks more like a business-computing than an
educational book, is quite big and Chuck is on the cover. I expect it
to improve the German *BSD situation dramatically.

Have to update the handbook and web pages...

Martin
-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org> http://www.cons.org/cracauer
BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany     http://www.bsdhh.org/

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 05:57:52 1998
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To: Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Books (Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement)
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Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org> writes:

> I'm happy to report we have a new German book on Free/Net/OpenBSD. The
> contents are sometimes head-shaking-triggering for long-term hackers,
> but nothing serious as far as I can tell after a quick look.

Title, ISBN?

tg

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 07:19:58 1998
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To: Martin Cracauer <cracauer@cons.org>
cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Books (Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 01 Oct 1998 14:35:37 +0200."
             <19981001143537.D9245@cons.org> 
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 07:08:21 -0700
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> I'm happy to report we have a new German book on Free/Net/OpenBSD. The
> contents are sometimes head-shaking-triggering for long-term hackers,
> but nothing serious as far as I can tell after a quick look.
> 
> It's professionally made, looks more like a business-computing than an
> educational book, is quite big and Chuck is on the cover. I expect it
> to improve the German *BSD situation dramatically.

That's great news!  Please do try and get a screenshot/short
description for http://www.freebsd.org/publish.html if you
can.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 07:38:14 1998
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From: "Viren R. Shah" <viren@rstcorp.com>
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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I just followed a link on slashdot.org to someone's work on SVR4
emulation for FreeBSD. It is at
   ftp://slash.dotat.org/pub/freebsd-svr4/

Has anyone tried this out? Are there any plans for it to be
incorporated in FreeBSD?

Tought I'd ask before trying it out myself.

Thanks
Viren
-- 
Viren R. Shah  {viren @ rstcorp . com}
Names        : Vanadium(23) Iodine(53) RhEnium(75) Nitrogen(7)
Density(g/mL):     5.8         4.92        21       0.0001251   
Average Density: 7.93003 g/mL

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 12:47:12 1998
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> 
> I just followed a link on slashdot.org to someone's work on SVR4
> emulation for FreeBSD. It is at
>    ftp://slash.dotat.org/pub/freebsd-svr4/
> 
> Has anyone tried this out? Are there any plans for it to be
> incorporated in FreeBSD?

It was just a bit too late for 3.0, but it will be incorporated shortly 
therafter.

> Tought I'd ask before trying it out myself.

We'd love to hear your results; please keep us informed.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 13:55:09 1998
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:54:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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Subject: We win
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	From http://www.slashdot.org/articles/98/10/01/106232.shtml we
read:

As of Tuesday morning, ftp.redhat.com has been running from the ISPCON
show floor in the Intel booth. We have a 20Mbs network pipe provided by
Intel and a Dell PowerEdge 2300 server. In just 24 hours we've done over
170G of data transferred to the Internet from that single server. The
server is a Dual P-II 400 with 1G of RAM. It also has 4x9G Seagate Cheetah
LVD drives running Linux software RAID 5 on the embedded Adaptec
controller. This machine simply *screams*. We had originally spec'ed two
machines, but we now simply use one of them as a backup. 

	Gee.. and single cpu ftp.cdrom.com transfered ONLY 417 gig in one
day. Hmm.. 170G vs 417G :P Linux folks are our friends but we still have
the lead here.

-- Yan

I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum 
But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. 
So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb
Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 14:49:39 1998
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From: Alex Perel <alexp@caesar.iplink.net>
To: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>
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On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Jan B. Koum  wrote:

> 
> 	From http://www.slashdot.org/articles/98/10/01/106232.shtml we
> read:
> 
	...

> 	Gee.. and single cpu ftp.cdrom.com transfered ONLY 417 gig in one
> day. Hmm.. 170G vs 417G :P Linux folks are our friends but we still have
> the lead here.
> 
	Not to mention on a machine with not nearly the same amount of 
horsepower as that dual PII-400 
	Hmmmmm


Alex

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 18:29:14 1998
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Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 10:58:45 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Jan B. Koum " <jkb@best.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Thursday,  1 October 1998 at 13:54:00 -0700, Jan B. Koum  wrote:
>
> 	From http://www.slashdot.org/articles/98/10/01/106232.shtml we
> read:
>
> As of Tuesday morning, ftp.redhat.com has been running from the ISPCON
> show floor in the Intel booth. We have a 20Mbs network pipe provided by
> Intel and a Dell PowerEdge 2300 server. In just 24 hours we've done over
> 170G of data transferred to the Internet from that single server. The
> server is a Dual P-II 400 with 1G of RAM. It also has 4x9G Seagate Cheetah
> LVD drives running Linux software RAID 5 on the embedded Adaptec
> controller. This machine simply *screams*. We had originally spec'ed two
> machines, but we now simply use one of them as a backup.
>
> 	Gee.. and single cpu ftp.cdrom.com transfered ONLY 417 gig in one
> day. Hmm.. 170G vs 417G :P Linux folks are our friends but we still have
> the lead here.

Yes, but we don't do it over a single 20 Mb/s line.  Let's see...
that's 2.5 MB/s, or 216 GB per day *raw bandwidth*.  If they really
got 170 of our kind of GB down that line, they've been running it at
at least 100%.

Greg
--
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct  1 21:37:24 1998
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From: Mark Newton <newton@atdot.dotat.org>
Message-Id: <199810020436.OAA24871@atdot.dotat.org>
Subject: Re: SVR4 emulation?
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:06:58 +0930 (CST)
Cc: viren@rstcorp.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, newton@dotat.org
In-Reply-To: <199810011952.MAA00964@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Oct 1, 98 12:52:21 pm
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Mike Smith wrote:

 > > I just followed a link on slashdot.org to someone's work on SVR4
 > > emulation for FreeBSD. It is at
 > >    ftp://slash.dotat.org/pub/freebsd-svr4/
 > > Has anyone tried this out? Are there any plans for it to be
 > > incorporated in FreeBSD?

A couple of people have tried it as far as I can tell, but I've had
precious little feedback.  Reading anguished requests for beta testers
in -hackers leads me to believe that that state of affairs is in no
way unusual for kernel-related work :-(

 > It was just a bit too late for 3.0, but it will be incorporated shortly 
 > therafter.
 > 
 > > Tought I'd ask before trying it out myself.
 > 
 > We'd love to hear your results; please keep us informed.

Indeed.  Please give it a try and let me know how you go with it.
It isn't complete, by any means, but I've had mixed amounts of
success with relatively complicated applications.  Most of the
software on the Solaris 2.5.1 CD-ROM seems to work ok, anyway.

Things which aren't done include:

   - Light-Weight Processes, otherwise known as kernel threads (duh!)
   - Interfacing BSD's emulation of SysV shared memory to SysVR4
     syscalls
   - I think there's still a small bug in sigreturn() which might
     explain why Netscape doesn't work and Solaris vi dumps core
     (it never used to dump core until I reimplemented sendsig/sigreturn,
     so the problem has to be in there somewhere).
   - various other things on a to-do list on the webpage.

Since this is going to -chat I guess it'd make sense to explain why
we'd want SysVR4:  The (abortive?) UltraSPARC port and the somewhat
more successful Alpha port have had the beneficial side-effect of
getting people to work on making FreeBSD 64-bit clean, placing us in
a good position for a Merced port if Merced ever gets released.

SysV vendors such as Sun, Silicon Graphics, SCO and HP have announced
plans to port Solaris, IRIX, OpenServer and HP-UX to Merced.

Now -- If we run on Merced and can run Merced SysVR4 executables, 
that means we'll be able to run programs written for Solaris, IRIX,
OpenServer and HP-UX.

... which is rather more comprehensive than, "Yeah, we can run most
Linux code, but Oracle still doesn't work."

At the moment, of course, I'm saying, "Yeah, we can run most Solaris
and some SCO code, but Oracle still doesn't work," so maybe we haven't
made much headway yet :-)

Personally I think Merced is a Microsoft plot:  Distract all the
UNIX vendors by making them rush around porting their OSs to a
processor that'll never be released while NT powers ahead on Pentium
descendants :-)  But just in case I'm wrong I've done the SysVR4 stuff. 

There's a web page for the project at 
http://slash.dotat.org/~newton/freebsd-svr4 (essentially a HTMLized
version of the README file, 'cept a bit more up-to-date).  Download
it, join the mailing list, try it out with a Solaris or SCO CD, and
tell us what you think.

Thanks,

    - mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried an internal modem,                    newton@atdot.dotat.org
     but it hurt when I walked.                          Mark Newton
----- Voice: +61-4-1958-3414 ------------- Fax: +61-8-83034403 -----

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 05:03:12 1998
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From: "Viren R. Shah" <viren@rstcorp.com>
To: Mark Newton <newton@atdot.dotat.org>
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>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Newton <newton@atdot.dotat.org> writes:

 Mark> Mike Smith wrote:
 >> It was just a bit too late for 3.0, but it will be incorporated shortly 
 >> therafter.
 >> 
 >> > Thought I'd ask before trying it out myself.
 >> 
 >> We'd love to hear your results; please keep us informed.

 Mark> Indeed.  Please give it a try and let me know how you go with it.
 Mark> It isn't complete, by any means, but I've had mixed amounts of
 Mark> success with relatively complicated applications.  Most of the
 Mark> software on the Solaris 2.5.1 CD-ROM seems to work ok, anyway.


Great. My Solaris/x86 CD should be arriving within a couple of
days. (They finally shipped it!). As soon as I get it, I'll test out
your stuff, Mark. 

 Mark> There's a web page for the project at 
 Mark> http://slash.dotat.org/~newton/freebsd-svr4 (essentially a HTMLized
 Mark> version of the README file, 'cept a bit more up-to-date).  Download
 Mark> it, join the mailing list, try it out with a Solaris or SCO CD, and
 Mark> tell us what you think.

Thanks. I'll do that.

 Mark>     - mark

Viren
-- 
Viren R. Shah, viren@rstcorp.com, http://www.rstcorp.com/~vshah/
`Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
 Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!'
  -- Lewis Carroll (Jabberwocky)

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 11:52:35 1998
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Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 14:48:29 -0400
From: Douglas Knight <dnk2374@ritvax.isc.rit.edu>
Subject: hello
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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I am student second years in Rochester Intitute of Technology and My majoring is Industrial Drafting Technical... I learn lab and challenges and any much too... 

what does freebsd mean?? Are you send free things at me???

thanks 



--Boundary_(ID_n/ducmeCSJSaSBW3PMQAnA)
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
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<DIV><FONT size=2>I am student second years in Rochester Intitute of Technology 
and My majoring is Industrial Drafting Technical... I learn lab and challenges 
and any much too... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>what does freebsd mean?? Are you send free things at 
me???</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>thanks </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 12:36:37 1998
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Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:35:53 +0200
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Douglas Knight <dnk2374@ritvax.isc.rit.edu>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 02:48:29PM -0400, Douglas Knight wrote:
> I am student second years in Rochester Intitute of Technology and My
> majoring is Industrial Drafting Technical... I learn lab and
> challenges and any much too...
> 
> what does freebsd mean?? Are you send free things at me???

FreeBSD is a free operation system for PCs and alphas.  You can
download it (with source) from ftp.freebsd.org (which is down right
now due to an upgrade, so use ftp2 or ftp3), for no cost whatsoever,
and we'll even (for a limited time only) throw in attempted answers to
questions you might have in getting it to work ;-)

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 14:27:43 1998
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Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
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On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Douglas Knight wrote:

>I am student second years in Rochester Intitute of Technology and My
>majoring is Industrial Drafting Technical... I learn lab and challenges
>and any much too...

>what does freebsd mean?? Are you send free things at me???

Free means two things. Free as in no cost and Free as in Freedom. The Free
ins FreeBSD means both.

BSD is Berkeley Software Distribution. It is a free unix operating system.

No we don't send free things to you. You have to come and get them. You
can get them by starting at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/install.html.

Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/
			|	206-633-5994


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 14:30:34 1998
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I was having a really good vision has I can remember from 1 year or so.
Now I'm a little bit paranoic and I'm always checking how I see since I
am on a computer. I have the paranoiac not so fun feeling than my vision
is slowly decreasing.
Are there any study/link on how can a computer screen damage your eye?
I have a 0.28 17" screen with a 1024X768 resolution.
Anyone here who have done 20 year of computing without wearing glasses?
:-)
Anyone tried those crazy filter they sell you for 99$?
-- 
[Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/]

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 15:45:02 1998
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Subject: Re: Slowly going blind ;-)
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On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Malartre wrote:

>I was having a really good vision has I can remember from 1 year or so.
>Now I'm a little bit paranoic and I'm always checking how I see since I
>am on a computer. I have the paranoiac not so fun feeling than my vision
>is slowly decreasing.
>Are there any study/link on how can a computer screen damage your eye?
>I have a 0.28 17" screen with a 1024X768 resolution.
>Anyone here who have done 20 year of computing without wearing glasses?
>:-)

I can share my personal experience with you.

I have been wearing glasses for fifteen years. I have been heavy into
computing for the last four. During long sessions my eyes get tired and I
find that it is harder to focus. (I also have a shitty monitor.) When I
get rest my vision is better.

My doctor prescribed a different prescription for computing. I haven't
bought it yet. (No money.) But a little examination in the office made me
think she was right on with the different prescription.

Read up on ergonomics for computing. That stuff makes a difference.

Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/
			|	206-633-5994


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Subject: ETA for ftp.cdrom.com?
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    When can we expect ftp.cdom.com to return?  Last I saw, there was
a notice saying there would be some downtime expected with the upgrade
to a half-terabyte RAID.
-- 
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 16:17:07 1998
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To: Brian Tao <taob@risc.org>
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Subject: Re: ETA for ftp.cdrom.com? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 19:11:18 EDT."
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>     When can we expect ftp.cdom.com to return?  Last I saw, there was
> a notice saying there would be some downtime expected with the upgrade
> to a half-terabyte RAID.

The only person that could answer that for sure is David, and he's 
likely to be busy working on it, not reading his mail.  8)

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 16:17:21 1998
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Subject: Re: ETA for ftp.cdrom.com? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 19:11:18 EDT."
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Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 16:05:50 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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Not all of the equipment which was shipped down here for the upgrade
made it in one piece.  I know that they were trying to emergency order
replacement bits yesterday but don't know the status of the machine
today.  AFAIK, David Greenman is still down here and working away on
it.

- Jordan

>     When can we expect ftp.cdom.com to return?  Last I saw, there was
> a notice saying there would be some downtime expected with the upgrade
> to a half-terabyte RAID.
> -- 
> Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org)
> "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 16:39:44 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:38:58 +1000
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: Malartre <malartre@aei.ca>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Slowly going blind ;-)
References: <361545DB.3EFDD68C@aei.ca>
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 05:30:03PM -0400, Malartre wrote:
> I was having a really good vision has I can remember from 1 year or so.
> Now I'm a little bit paranoic and I'm always checking how I see since I
> am on a computer. I have the paranoiac not so fun feeling than my vision
> is slowly decreasing.

Don't worry, it is probably doing you good. For about 20 years I was as
blind as half a bat and had to wear glasses all the time. Sometimes I
fell asleep wearning them, and found the dreams were much better.

Then I started using computers. After a while it got harder and harder
to see the screen. Everything looked tiny and I had to pull the monitor
closer to be able to read it. One day I realised that it was easier to
read the screen without glasses, so I took them off.

Day after day, year after year, I sat in front of that screen, letting
its rays bathe my naked eyes. My vision steadily improved. Now I can
see very well without glasses and only need them occasionally to see
something way off in the distance.

At this rate, after another few months of computer use my vision will
have improved to the point that I can throw my glasses away, even for
distance vision.

These years of computer use have caused some more minor changes, such
as the onset of grey hair, wrinkles, and changed tastes in food,
particularly pizza. Those around me who don't use computers seem to be
losing their short term memory, often erroneously remembering some
recent incident that didn't actually happen. Perhaps that is because
they don't sit in front of the screen and stare straight at it but take
furtive glances as they shout from the doorway.

For me, the best part is the dreams. As my eyes have improved due to
constant computer use, the dreams have become more and more vivid.
Dreams are no longer a series of blurred images and now everything is
very life-like. Already the dreams are so good that it can be
impossible to tell them from reality.


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 16:57:51 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:57:03 +1000
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: Malartre <malartre@aei.ca>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Slowly going blind ;-)
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 05:30:03PM -0400, Malartre wrote:
> I was having a really good vision has I can remember from 1 year or so.
> Now I'm a little bit paranoic and I'm always checking how I see since I
> am on a computer. I have the paranoiac not so fun feeling than my vision
> is slowly decreasing.
> Are there any study/link on how can a computer screen damage your eye?

But seriously.... recently I read about something that can happen.
People use a computer for a few hours, then get up and walk around,
and then they can't see very well. Of course they get worried.

So what's happening? While using the computer (or reading, or
doing anything close up), they eyes get used to focusing at that
distance. They sort of stick like that. Then when you start looking
into the distance it takes time for the eyes to change back to their
normal behaviour. If you are alrady a bit worried, this can be quite a
scare, and that makes you notice the problem more.

After a few minutes, the eyes readjust to normal distances and start
working fine. I don't know whether or not there is any bad effect from
this over a number of years (I'm not a doctor), but I do know that
worry makes it harder to see clearly.

Also consider that the eyes go through changes at different rates at
different times of life. For example there is a period some time during
late teens/early twenties when short-sighted people will notice much
more rapid deterioration, and another around the early 40s where most
people, particularly long sighted people, notice another wave of
deterioration. The eyesight remains relatively constant in between, so
it's easy to become more anxious than necessary if you're not aware of
these natural age-related changes.

Anyway, the easiest thing to do is go get your eyes checked out.
You'll get some proper advice, correction if necessary, and a clear
conscience.

-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 17:06:02 1998
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From: Lee Cremeans <lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net>
To: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>, Malartre <malartre@aei.ca>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Slowly going blind ;-)
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 03:44:33PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Malartre wrote:
> 
> >I was having a really good vision has I can remember from 1 year or so.
> >Now I'm a little bit paranoic and I'm always checking how I see since I
> >am on a computer. I have the paranoiac not so fun feeling than my vision
> >is slowly decreasing.
> >Are there any study/link on how can a computer screen damage your eye?
> >I have a 0.28 17" screen with a 1024X768 resolution.
> >Anyone here who have done 20 year of computing without wearing glasses?
> >:-)
> 
> I can share my personal experience with you.
> 
> I have been wearing glasses for fifteen years. I have been heavy into
> computing for the last four. During long sessions my eyes get tired and I
> find that it is harder to focus. (I also have a shitty monitor.) When I
> get rest my vision is better.
> 
> My doctor prescribed a different prescription for computing. I haven't
> bought it yet. (No money.) But a little examination in the office made me
> think she was right on with the different prescription.
> 

For me, glasses have always been a fact of life, and I started computing
when I was 6 (1983). I was born really nearsighted, and for all of
elementary school, and most of HS, had to wear glasses with huge plastic
lenses. I got contacts in 1994, and have never gone back. :)

I must say, though, that after hours of staring at computer screens every
day, then driving 20 miles to/from home, my eyes get pretty tired. It's
always nice to be able to pull my contacts out before I go to bed...gives
them a good break.

PS: I also run my 15" monitor at 1152x864 with no ill effects. :)

-- 
Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA  (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)  
A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did 
$++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | mailto:lcremean@tidalwave.net
http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net | Powered by FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 17:32:29 1998
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To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Slowly going blind ;-)
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On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Sue Blake wrote:

>For me, the best part is the dreams. As my eyes have improved due to
>constant computer use, the dreams have become more and more vivid.
>Dreams are no longer a series of blurred images and now everything is
>very life-like. Already the dreams are so good that it can be
>impossible to tell them from reality.

sue...
Sue....
SUE>>>>>

Wake up dear. Your head was stuck to the keyboard. You have little checks
on your cheek.

:)

Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 17:56:19 1998
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 hington.edu>
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I find that between my 17" sony at work (very sharp), a crappy 15"
Princeton at home, and a 16" sun at home, I find myself lugging my
thinkpad to and fro as my "preffered monitor".  

Is it just me, or is the LCD screen easiest to look at for long stretches?

Waiting for flat panel prices to drop,

Charles

---
Charles Sprickman
spork@super-g.com
--- 
                     "...there's no idea that's so good you can't 
                      ruin it with a few well-placed idiots." 

On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote:

> On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Malartre wrote:
> 
> >I was having a really good vision has I can remember from 1 year or so.
> >Now I'm a little bit paranoic and I'm always checking how I see since I
> >am on a computer. I have the paranoiac not so fun feeling than my vision
> >is slowly decreasing.
> >Are there any study/link on how can a computer screen damage your eye?
> >I have a 0.28 17" screen with a 1024X768 resolution.
> >Anyone here who have done 20 year of computing without wearing glasses?
> >:-)
> 
> I can share my personal experience with you.
> 
> I have been wearing glasses for fifteen years. I have been heavy into
> computing for the last four. During long sessions my eyes get tired and I
> find that it is harder to focus. (I also have a shitty monitor.) When I
> get rest my vision is better.
> 
> My doctor prescribed a different prescription for computing. I haven't
> bought it yet. (No money.) But a little examination in the office made me
> think she was right on with the different prescription.
> 
> Read up on ergonomics for computing. That stuff makes a difference.
> 
> Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
> Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/
> 			|	206-633-5994
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
> 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 18:11:59 1998
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
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At 11:36 AM 9/30/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>[ Brett, how can I say this.  Knock it off with the bloody cross-posts
> already!  I keep saying it and you keep ignoring it and it's annoying
> since there's *no need* for both -chat and -advocacy....

The reason why I cross-posted is that advocacy is very undersubscribed,
so posting such messages to it alone doesn't reach everyone who might
be interested in the topic.

>Um, waitaminute here.  I feel like the conversation has suddenly
>veered in an unexpected direction, like a sugar-charged 4 year old
>left imprudently unwatched.

I don't think so. Every announcement of Linux advocacy and support
by a major vendor leaves FreeBSD increasingly in the dust.

>I dunno, but it really looks from my angle like you're trying
>extremely hard to see defeat where demonstrable progress exists
>and I find that hard to fathom.

Every time a major vendor supports Linux without also supporting
FreeBSD, it's a defeat. A major one. And the rate of those defeats
is accelerating daily.

>> Worse still, Walnut Creek seems to be doing just about ZIP to promote 
>> FreeBSD, in the face of a groundswell of publicity for Linux. It
>> had the chance to be Red Hat before Red Hat existed, and blew it
>
>Not only is this patently untrue, and you'll see some of the more
>visible results of Walnut Creek's continuing investments in FreeBSD
>over the next few months (many of their investments being far less
>visible but no less important), but saying that they had a chance to
>be "Red Hat" honestly simplifies the actual course of events beyond
>all reason.

We can argue over how much it "simplifies" things, but it's nonetheless
so. I don't see FreeBSD getting 1/100th the advertising, advocacy, and
other vital market support from Walnut Creek that Linux gets from Red
Hat alone (forgetting Caldera, Corel, and others for the moment).

>Nice rhetoric - I especially like the football analogy at the end
>there.  Rah rah.  Go team.  It's also surprisingly apt since I find
>this kind of advocacy about as useful as a football cheer from the
>stands - it conveys a certain degree of concern for the outcome of the
>play, agreed, but it also suggests nothing more specific than the fact
>that winning would probably be a really popular move on my part.

I've made a specific suggestion: Pick up the fumble. Denying that there
has BEEN a fumble does no good when the ball is rolling loose on the
ground.

>That one dirty little word we haven't mentioned yet, however, and the
>one I think you've conveniently overlooked in all of your brum and
>bluster is: "Logistics."  Start coming up with some decent plans for
>growing new structures within the project without killing it in the
>process and you'll have a lot more of my attention than you're getting
>with this kind of fiery pulpit-pounding.

Well, I'm afraid that right now the initiative lies with your employer,
Walnut Creek. The only other option besides promotion, advocacy, and
support from that company is to create a split in the market by 
introducing another vendor. 

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 18:12:05 1998
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To: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
Cc: James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 12:53 PM 9/30/98 -0600, Wes Peters wrote:
 
>Linux compatibility is one of the
>most important features of FreeBSD.  As the market for commercial Linux
>applications grows, so does the market for commercial FreeBSD applications.

History has proven exactly the opposite. The introduction of Windows
application support in OS/2 actually accelerated its demise. If FreeBSD
starts billing itself as "a better Linux than Linux" it will fall into
precisely the same trap and will never catch up.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 18:16:12 1998
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 11:58 AM 9/30/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>Hear hear.  I just finished writing one for Performance Computing and
>have been, with the possible exception of Brett (who appears to do
>just fine when he's banging a kettle in print rather than in email :),
>one of the only people still trying to keep FreeBSD mentioned
>occasionally in the american trade press.  That sucks.  I don't even
>like writing articles. :)

Well, I'm getting rather weary of banging kettles alone, thank you.
My arm's getting pretty tired, and no one else seems to be doing
much in the realm of effective promotion.

Even Nader's group (Yes, Jamie, I know you're being copied here),
which is supposedly in favor of LOTS of consumer choice, consistently 
flogs Linux but mentions FreeBSD in passing at best.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 18:30:18 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:59:23 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>, Malartre <malartre@aei.ca>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Slowly going blind ;-)
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On Saturday,  3 October 1998 at  9:57:03 +1000, Sue Blake wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 05:30:03PM -0400, Malartre wrote:
>> I was having a really good vision has I can remember from 1 year or so.
>> Now I'm a little bit paranoic and I'm always checking how I see since I
>> am on a computer. I have the paranoiac not so fun feeling than my vision
>> is slowly decreasing.
>> Are there any study/link on how can a computer screen damage your eye?
>
> But seriously.... recently I read about something that can happen.
> People use a computer for a few hours, then get up and walk around,
> and then they can't see very well. Of course they get worried.
>
> So what's happening? While using the computer (or reading, or
> doing anything close up), they eyes get used to focusing at that
> distance. They sort of stick like that. Then when you start looking
> into the distance it takes time for the eyes to change back to their
> normal behaviour. If you are alrady a bit worried, this can be quite a
> scare, and that makes you notice the problem more.
>
> After a few minutes, the eyes readjust to normal distances and start
> working fine. I don't know whether or not there is any bad effect from
> this over a number of years (I'm not a doctor), but I do know that
> worry makes it harder to see clearly.
>
> Also consider that the eyes go through changes at different rates at
> different times of life. For example there is a period some time during
> late teens/early twenties when short-sighted people will notice much
> more rapid deterioration, and another around the early 40s where most
> people, particularly long sighted people, notice another wave of
> deterioration. The eyesight remains relatively constant in between, so
> it's easy to become more anxious than necessary if you're not aware of
> these natural age-related changes.
>
> Anyway, the easiest thing to do is go get your eyes checked out.
> You'll get some proper advice, correction if necessary, and a clear
> conscience.

Good advice.

To Malatre's original question: take a look at my web page.  I've
carefully hidden my glasses for the picture, but I need them for the
screen.  What you will see is that the screens are high-resolution:
the left one is 1280x1024, the right one is 1600x1200.  I use a 6x13
font, which allows me to display about 85 lines on a screen, and I
have no difficulty reading the characters (the limit is more the
monitor than my eyes).

I've been using terminals and monitors for many hours a day since they
first became popular in the late 70s.  Since then, my eyes have
deteriorated.  So have the eyes of my contemporaries who don't use
computers.  As Sue points out, it's normal enough.

The first terminal I used was a Lear Siegler ADM-2 ("American Dream
Machine").  It had a white display, whereas the screens on the IBM
3276 elsewhere in the department were green.  The worker's
representative (German "Betriebsrat") people came along and assured us
that studies had shown that white terminal screens were bad for your
eyes, and promised us 3270s.  When I told them that we were not
suffering any eyestrain, and that we did on the few occasions when we
used 3270s (in those days they couldn't transfer data and display at
the same time, so they kept blinking), they said "What's wrong with
you, we're on your side".

The moral: lots of people will tell you about the dangers of using
computers.  People once said that railways would never catch on,
because above 30 mph people wouldn't be able to breathe.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 18:31:30 1998
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On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 09:38:58AM +1000, Sue Blake woke me up to tell me:
> 
> These years of computer use have caused some more minor changes, such
> as the onset of grey hair, wrinkles, and changed tastes in food,
> particularly pizza. Those around me who don't use computers seem to be
> losing their short term memory, often erroneously remembering some
> recent incident that didn't actually happen. Perhaps that is because
> they don't sit in front of the screen and stare straight at it but take
> furtive glances as they shout from the doorway.
> 
> For me, the best part is the dreams. As my eyes have improved due to
> constant computer use, the dreams have become more and more vivid.
> Dreams are no longer a series of blurred images and now everything is
> very life-like. Already the dreams are so good that it can be
> impossible to tell them from reality.

Ummm...  Sue?
Either
A) You're dreaming now, which means that my response means that I'm also
dreaming, which means dammit!  Why am I dreaming about talking about
computers improving eyesight instead of food and bikinis like any other
redblooded man??
B) You're smoking something over there, and you're not sharing.

*crawls back into cave with monochrome monitor and syscons*


*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
|       FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be       |
* "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is *
| that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."|
*    fullermd@futuresouth.com      :-}  MAtthew Fuller    *
|      http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd          |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 18:36:38 1998
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Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
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To: spork <spork@super-g.com>
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Subject: Overhead Displays Was: Slowly going blind ;-)
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On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, spork wrote:

>Is it just me, or is the LCD screen easiest to look at for long stretches?

Has anyone done any extensive computing on a projected LCD display? (The
type that are commonly reserved for presentations.)

I am wondering if that was an enjoyable experience. It seems cool. It
would also seem to have some ergonomic benefit.

I had a buddy who worked at a company that used two projector displays in
their networking room, displaying systems statuses real big like. He only
worked in his cube so he wasn't able to say if they were good to work
with.

Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/
			|	206-633-5994


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 19:21:37 1998
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> >Linux compatibility is one of the
> >most important features of FreeBSD.  As the market for commercial Linux
> >applications grows, so does the market for commercial FreeBSD applications.
> 
> History has proven exactly the opposite. The introduction of Windows
> application support in OS/2 actually accelerated its demise. If FreeBSD
> starts billing itself as "a better Linux than Linux" it will fall into
> precisely the same trap and will never catch up.

That is a rhetorical fallacy.  (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc -- "After
this therefore because of this")

The reason OS/2 died was because IBM and Microsoft couldn't get along.
That's why Microsoft cut them off.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 19:30:14 1998
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To: dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
Cc: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 07:24 PM 10/2/98 -0700, dmorrisn wrote:
>> History has proven exactly the opposite. The introduction of Windows
>> application support in OS/2 actually accelerated its demise. If FreeBSD
>> starts billing itself as "a better Linux than Linux" it will fall into
>> precisely the same trap and will never catch up.
>
>That is a rhetorical fallacy.  (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc -- "After
>this therefore because of this")

No fallacy at all. It's been proven again and again that emulating another 
OS that's more popular provides the ultimate disincentive to developers. 
OS/2 is only one recent case in point.

Look at it from the developer's point of view. Why EVER develop a native
FreeBSD version of any product if one can just do a Linux version?

So, FreeBSD's name never appears on the box. Tech support for commercial
products is unavailable when they run under FreeBSD, while they're well
supported under Linux. Linux gets the mindshare and FreeBSD becomes known
as an unsupported also-ran.

I watched this happen with OS/2. I couldn't even get support for WINDOWS
apps running under OS/2, much less get native versions that were any
good.

>The reason OS/2 died was because IBM and Microsoft couldn't get along.
>That's why Microsoft cut them off.

The Linux camp doesn't exactly get along with FreeBSD either. They trash
it constantly.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 19:41:53 1998
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Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:41:28 -0500
From: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: New artwork for 3.0 CD cover?
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[Ooh, this HAS to go to chat before I get my head ripped off]

On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 04:40:04PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard woke me up to tell me:
> 
> Anyone else who really thinks they have the perfect (non-commercial!)
> artwork for the CD is also free to contact me.  It would be good to
> have some back-up for Tatsumi, even if he does decide to do this, and
> there's always a lot of other FreeBSD merchandise which needs artwork
> (hats, jackets, watches, stickers, condoms, etc) and we could use a
> variety of themes for since it's kind of boring to only have just one.

I would be fascinated to know where one could buy FreeBSD condoms.  Talk
about 'open source'...
And think of the inroads we could make into the college scene!  Abstract
technical discussions are wonderful foreplay.  Any woman who will whisper
words like 'CAM', and 'ELF, and 'Perl', and 'SoftUpdates' in my ear...
Well, maybe not the last one.

I think I'm going to shut up now...


*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
|       FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be       |
* "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is *
| that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."|
*    fullermd@futuresouth.com      :-}  MAtthew Fuller    *
|      http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd          |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 19:42:13 1998
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        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com>
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> >That is a rhetorical fallacy.  (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc -- "After
> >this therefore because of this")
> 
> No fallacy at all. It's been proven again and again that emulating another
> OS that's more popular provides the ultimate disincentive to developers.
> OS/2 is only one recent case in point.

I don't see any proof that it's the "ultimate disincentive", nor have
you given any.  You continue to substitute opinion as fact, which
I won't bother quoting below.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 19:49:29 1998
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To: dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
Cc: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 07:44 PM 10/2/98 -0700, dmorrisn wrote:
 
>I don't see any proof that it's the "ultimate disincentive", nor have
>you given any.

I've already presented the developer's perspective in a prior message.

If you're unwilling to make the obvious and trivial mental connections
required to comprehend the information I presented in my message, it's
not MY problem.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 20:01:36 1998
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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On Friday,  2 October 1998 at 20:29:21 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 07:24 PM 10/2/98 -0700, dmorrisn wrote:
>>> History has proven exactly the opposite. The introduction of Windows
>>> application support in OS/2 actually accelerated its demise. If FreeBSD
>>> starts billing itself as "a better Linux than Linux" it will fall into
>>> precisely the same trap and will never catch up.
>>
>> That is a rhetorical fallacy.  (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc -- "After
>> this therefore because of this")
>
> No fallacy at all. It's been proven again and again that emulating another
> OS that's more popular provides the ultimate disincentive to developers.
> OS/2 is only one recent case in point.

OK.  So Linux is emulating UNIX, and is thus doomed.  FreeBSD is UNIX,
and thus OK.  Right?

> Look at it from the developer's point of view. Why EVER develop a native
> FreeBSD version of any product if one can just do a Linux version?

Good question.  What reason can you think of?  Since people are
working towards one interface which would work not just for FreeBSD
and Linux, but also for SCO and Solaris, it doesn't seem worth
striving for.

> So, FreeBSD's name never appears on the box.

Why not?  If they have a product that runs both on Linux and on
FreeBSD (and SCO and Solaris), do you think they're not going to
mention the fact?

> Tech support for commercial products is unavailable when they run
> under FreeBSD, while they're well supported under Linux. Linux gets
> the mindshare and FreeBSD becomes known as an unsupported also-ran.
>
> I watched this happen with OS/2. I couldn't even get support for WINDOWS
> apps running under OS/2, much less get native versions that were any
> good.

So how does that make it different from Windows?

>> The reason OS/2 died was because IBM and Microsoft couldn't get along.
>> That's why Microsoft cut them off.
>
> The Linux camp doesn't exactly get along with FreeBSD either. They trash
> it constantly.

In this comparison, you've missed the point that the problem was the
OS/2 people (little system) who didn't get on with Microsoft (big
system).  I've voiced my opinion about the damage done by rabid people
in the FreeBSD camp before.  The fact is, you're still fighting the
wrong fight.  Linux isn't the enemy, Microslop is.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 20:07:35 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 07:10:48PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 12:53 PM 9/30/98 -0600, Wes Peters wrote:
>  
> >Linux compatibility is one of the
> >most important features of FreeBSD.  As the market for commercial Linux
> >applications grows, so does the market for commercial FreeBSD applications.
> 
> History has proven exactly the opposite. The introduction of Windows
> application support in OS/2 actually accelerated its demise. If FreeBSD
> starts billing itself as "a better Linux than Linux" it will fall into
> precisely the same trap and will never catch up.
> 
> --Brett

Bingo!!

    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 20:12:31 1998
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002190913.040f3b60@mail.lariat.org> <36158AD6.811BD16E@u.washington.edu> <4.1.19981002202119.040f7c30@mail.lariat.org>
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 08:29:21PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 07:24 PM 10/2/98 -0700, dmorrisn wrote:
> >> History has proven exactly the opposite. The introduction of Windows
> >> application support in OS/2 actually accelerated its demise. If FreeBSD
> >> starts billing itself as "a better Linux than Linux" it will fall into
> >> precisely the same trap and will never catch up.
> >
> >That is a rhetorical fallacy.  (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc -- "After
> >this therefore because of this")
> 
> No fallacy at all. It's been proven again and again that emulating another 
> OS that's more popular provides the ultimate disincentive to developers. 
> OS/2 is only one recent case in point.
> 
> Look at it from the developer's point of view. Why EVER develop a native
> FreeBSD version of any product if one can just do a Linux version?
> 
> So, FreeBSD's name never appears on the box. Tech support for commercial
> products is unavailable when they run under FreeBSD, while they're well
> supported under Linux. Linux gets the mindshare and FreeBSD becomes known
> as an unsupported also-ran.
> 
> I watched this happen with OS/2. I couldn't even get support for WINDOWS
> apps running under OS/2, much less get native versions that were any
> good.
> 
> >The reason OS/2 died was because IBM and Microsoft couldn't get along.
> >That's why Microsoft cut them off.
> 
> The Linux camp doesn't exactly get along with FreeBSD either. They trash
> it constantly.
> 
> --Brett

Brett, you are exactly on target.  But I am afraid that you are just
pissing against the wind.

I like you, am convinced that there is an economic issue that is holding
FreeBSD back in the market place.
-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 20:15:13 1998
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From: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
To: dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002190913.040f3b60@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981002202119.040f7c30@mail.lariat.org> <36158FA2.FB67AC24@u.washington.edu>
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 07:44:50PM -0700, dmorrisn wrote:
> > >That is a rhetorical fallacy.  (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc -- "After
> > >this therefore because of this")
> > 
> > No fallacy at all. It's been proven again and again that emulating another
> > OS that's more popular provides the ultimate disincentive to developers.
> > OS/2 is only one recent case in point.
> 
> I don't see any proof that it's the "ultimate disincentive", nor have
> you given any.  You continue to substitute opinion as fact, which
> I won't bother quoting below.

I won't bother with the logical correctness of your argument, I'll just say
that it bullshit and let it lay there.

-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 20:28:08 1998
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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At 12:30 PM 10/3/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
 
>> No fallacy at all. It's been proven again and again that emulating another
>> OS that's more popular provides the ultimate disincentive to developers.
>> OS/2 is only one recent case in point.
>
>OK.  So Linux is emulating UNIX, and is thus doomed.  FreeBSD is UNIX,
>and thus OK.  Right?

Linux is actually experiencing greater growth than commercial UNIX, so
it's not emulating something that's more popular.

>> Look at it from the developer's point of view. Why EVER develop a native
>> FreeBSD version of any product if one can just do a Linux version?
>
>Good question.  What reason can you think of?  Since people are
>working towards one interface which would work not just for FreeBSD
>and Linux, but also for SCO and Solaris, it doesn't seem worth
>striving for.

There is such an effort. But will it really happen? We'll see. The
commercial UNIX vendors are well aware that this will jeopardize
their product differentiation and undermine their efforts to enlist 
ISVs to write for their versions exclusively.

>> So, FreeBSD's name never appears on the box.
>
>Why not?  If they have a product that runs both on Linux and on
>FreeBSD (and SCO and Solaris), do you think they're not going to
>mention the fact?

I haven't seen one that DOES. Most recently, I was particularly disappointed
to note that Corel's WordPerfect for Linux didn't mention ANYWHERE that it ran
under FreeBSD. And when I called Corel to inquire, their marketing people
didn't
even know FreeBSD existed, much less whether their product would run on it.

>> Tech support for commercial products is unavailable when they run
>> under FreeBSD, while they're well supported under Linux. Linux gets
>> the mindshare and FreeBSD becomes known as an unsupported also-ran.
>>
>> I watched this happen with OS/2. I couldn't even get support for WINDOWS
>> apps running under OS/2, much less get native versions that were any
>> good.
>
>So how does that make it different from Windows?

You could get support for the application if you were running it on Windows.
(You couldn't get support for Windows itself, but that's another story.)

>In this comparison, you've missed the point that the problem was the
>OS/2 people (little system) who didn't get on with Microsoft (big
>system).  I've voiced my opinion about the damage done by rabid people
>in the FreeBSD camp before.  The fact is, you're still fighting the
>wrong fight.  Linux isn't the enemy, Microslop is.

I disagree. Someone who seeks to do you harm is, by definition, an enemy.
Microsoft has not done any direct harm to FreeBSD; in fact, they have tacitly
endorsed it by using the code for the BSD FTP, dig, and traceroute utilities. 
The Linux camp, on the other hand, has openly attacked FreeBSD.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 20:41:37 1998
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cc: dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>, Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>,
        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 20:48:17 MDT."
             <4.1.19981002204214.0420a940@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 20:28:40 -0700
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> If you're unwilling to make the obvious and trivial mental connections
> required to comprehend the information I presented in my message, it's
> not MY problem.

It's interesting that you should say something like this, because I
myself was just puzzling over the great disparity between your recent
postings on the mailing lists (or your usenet contributions) and your
print advocacy.  When you're writing for the likes of Sm@rt Reseller,
for example, you seem to understand just fine where the right balance
between passion and logic lies and you generally make a pretty
convincing argument which manages both to be readable and to convey
the information you're trying to impart to the reader.  As a body of
communication, what you've done for print journalism has been just fine
and is to be commended.

When it's time to go home to your PC, however, you apparently drop
your logic cap into a desk drawer and lock the door, off to give the
more passionate side of your nature a turn in the uninhibited disco
lights of various public mailing lists.  Unsubstantiated claims and
general invective fly like emotional harpoons, and you exhibit none of
the usual care which distinguishes your press work in actually trying
convince the reader through meaningful argument.  It's all "I'm mad as
hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" [with apologies to
"Network"].

Such a presentation style is as unfortunate as it is ineffective, and
if you're trying to "sell" any idea to a bunch of mailing list readers
it's truly no different than trying to sell the readers of Sm@rt
Reseller on something (like FreeBSD).  In both cases you have a
semi-skeptical audience who's ready to be won over by convincing
argument, and someone just mindlessly venting his spleen over
something is not likely to fill the bill unless they're also capable
of being highly amusing about it (e.g. they're Dennis Miller, Dave
Barry or P.J. O'Rourke).

As a journalist, you also already know full well that it's part of
every communicator's responsibility to communicate *effectively*, not
to immediately blame the audience for their inability to convey an
argument, and for every audience there is also an appropriate style.
If you're standing in front of 10,000 brownshirts at a Nurenberg
rally, for example, then it's probably a reasonable thing to shout
passionately and maybe spray a little spittle from time to time.  If
you're addressing the International Brotherhood of Accountants, on the
other hand, then I don't think that sort of presentation style would
go over all that well.  A goofy example, to be sure, but I think the
point remains: If it's your intention to communicate anything more
substantive than "if you see one of my messages, hit delete to avoid
the heat" then I'd say that you are failing to do so.  Given that I
already know you're more than capable of communicating more
effectively than this, it is also a highly avoidable failure.

I am willing to be convinced that we can do better with the resources
currently available, but not by arguments which esteem passion over
logic.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 20:43:51 1998
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:12:04 CDT."
             <19981002221204.C11661@execpc.com> 
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 20:32:18 -0700
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> I like you, am convinced that there is an economic issue that is holding
> FreeBSD back in the market place.

Care to be any more vague in your assertions?

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 20:49:51 1998
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        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, James Love <love@cptech.org>,
        chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:26:29 MDT."
             <4.1.19981002211803.040e9870@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 20:36:44 -0700
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> The Linux camp, on the other hand, has openly attacked FreeBSD.

Well, to be a bit more accurate, large amounts of the Linux warfare
I've seen has been because sombody named Brett went off firing shots
into their neighborhoods on USENET, it then being hardly surprising
when a fight erupted.  Brett's one of those "bombing the enemy for
peace" sorts of generals, and it's hard to take a lot of his invective
seriously in that context.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 20:55:55 1998
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Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:54:18 -0600
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>, Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>,
        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 08:28 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>It's interesting that you should say something like this, because I
>myself was just puzzling over the great disparity between your recent
>postings on the mailing lists (or your usenet contributions) and your
>print advocacy. When you're writing for the likes of Sm@rt Reseller,
>for example, you seem to understand just fine where the right balance
>between passion and logic lies and you generally make a pretty
>convincing argument which manages both to be readable and to convey
>the information you're trying to impart to the reader.  As a body of
>communication, what you've done for print journalism has been just fine
>and is to be commended.
>
>When it's time to go home to your PC, however, you apparently drop
>your logic cap into a desk drawer and lock the door, off to give the
>more passionate side of your nature a turn in the uninhibited disco
>lights of various public mailing lists.

Not so. In print, I am doing appropriate explanation and advocacy.
On these lists, I am projecting trends. And I am stating, quite 
bluntly, that my minor and little-read recommendations are nowhere 
near enough to stop FreeBSD's current slide toward insignificance
at the hands of the Linux zealots (who have managed to gain the
undivided mindshare of such prominent folk as Nick Petreley,
Nader's "Appraising Microsoft" team, etc.)

>As a journalist, you also already know full well that it's part of
>every communicator's responsibility to communicate *effectively*, not
>to immediately blame the audience for their inability to convey an
>argument, and for every audience there is also an appropriate style.

Sometimes, a negative response is proof that one is communicating
effectively. If one evokes cries of "No, it ain't so!" from those 
who are in denial about the situation, it actually means that one
is doing a good job of presenting it.

>If you're standing in front of 10,000 brownshirts at a Nurenberg
>rally, for example, then it's probably a reasonable thing to shout
>passionately and maybe spray a little spittle from time to time.

Fweeeeeet!! Godwin's Law. 10 yard penalty and fourth down.

>If it's your intention to communicate anything more
>substantive than "if you see one of my messages, hit delete to avoid
>the heat" then I'd say that you are failing to do so.

Again, the only people who may feel compelled to do this are those
who are in denial about what's going on.

>I am willing to be convinced that we can do better with the resources
>currently available, but not by arguments which esteem passion over
>logic.

Logic is important here, and I'm already stressing some logical things
that much be done. But logic dictates that passion is ALSO important.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:01:01 1998
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From: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 08:32:18PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > I like you, am convinced that there is an economic issue that is holding
> > FreeBSD back in the market place.
> 
> Care to be any more vague in your assertions?
> 
> - Jordan

We both know what I'm referring to.  Besides, you hit on it in your reply
to my post to advocacy regarding The Complete FreeBSD.

-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:02:41 1998
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 08:32 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>> I like you, am convinced that there is an economic issue that is holding
>> FreeBSD back in the market place.
>
>Care to be any more vague in your assertions?

Now, Jordan, THERE's a logical argument that's going to lead to productive
discourse.

Not. :-(

Frank and I are not the only people who perceive that FreeBSD is plagued by a
lack of investment in marketing. Walnut Creek doesn't seem willing to
make that investment.

Now, what would you have us do? Sit back and let FreeBSD lose out to Linux?
Break away from Walnut Creek by publishing another version, thereby fragmenting
the market and, possibly, development efforts? Neither is a better alternative
than getting Walnut Creek off its duff, but the latter may be necessary if we
don't see things change soon.

--Brett




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:04:48 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <Your <4.1.19981002204214.0420a940@mail.lariat.org> <10999.907385320@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002214258.04211690@mail.lariat.org>
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At the risk of inducing Jordan's ire, I'm cross-posting this message
to -chat (as Bcc:) and -advocacy.  Please reply only to -advocacy.
I'm doing this because I think an unpleasant situation is developing,
and I'd like the personal view of as many FreeBSD users as possible.
If *you* think this is important, please let me know what you think.

On Friday,  2 October 1998 at 21:54:18 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 08:28 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
>> It's interesting that you should say something like this, because I
>> myself was just puzzling over the great disparity between your recent
>> postings on the mailing lists (or your usenet contributions) and your
>> print advocacy. When you're writing for the likes of Sm@rt Reseller,
>> for example, you seem to understand just fine where the right balance
>> between passion and logic lies and you generally make a pretty
>> convincing argument which manages both to be readable and to convey
>> the information you're trying to impart to the reader.  As a body of
>> communication, what you've done for print journalism has been just fine
>> and is to be commended.
>>
>> When it's time to go home to your PC, however, you apparently drop
>> your logic cap into a desk drawer and lock the door, off to give the
>> more passionate side of your nature a turn in the uninhibited disco
>> lights of various public mailing lists.
>
> Not so. In print, I am doing appropriate explanation and advocacy.
> On these lists, I am projecting trends. And I am stating, quite
> bluntly, that my minor and little-read recommendations are nowhere
> near enough to stop FreeBSD's current slide toward insignificance
> at the hands of the Linux zealots (who have managed to gain the
> undivided mindshare of such prominent folk as Nick Petreley,
> Nader's "Appraising Microsoft" team, etc.)

Your're very much entitled to your opinion.  On the other hand, when
you go out on lists like that, many people will consider you to be a
typical FreeBSD user, which I think you are not.  Both Jordan and I
have repeatedly stated that we think you are harming FreeBSD more than
you're helping it (though we both appreciate the good you do, as
Jordan shows above).

We could be wrong.  Question to everybody who's seen Brett's messages:
should he continue, or should he stop?  If the consensus is that he
should continue, I'll shut up (that places no similar requirement on
Jordan, of course :-)

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:12:46 1998
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Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:05:45 -0600
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>,
        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, James Love <love@cptech.org>,
        chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 08:36 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>> The Linux camp, on the other hand, has openly attacked FreeBSD.
>
>Well, to be a bit more accurate, large amounts of the Linux warfare
>I've seen has been because sombody named Brett went off firing shots
>into their neighborhoods on USENET, it then being hardly surprising
>when a fight erupted.

Nope. I've merely commented that they might be wrong when they've 
trashed FreeBSD. That's all it takes to get their guns trained on you.

>Brett's one of those "bombing the enemy for
>peace" sorts of generals, and it's hard to take a lot of his invective
>seriously in that context.

Sorry, Jordan, but your denial -- which you express by labeling my 
perception of the situation as "invective" -- doesn't do anything to
change the situation. Fact is, the Linux camp has no intention of "bombing 
FreeBSD for peace." It wants to destroy it in the name of the Holy GPL,
to which it is a threat.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:13:11 1998
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From: John Birrell  <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981002215535.040ed100@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Oct 2, 98 10:01:15 pm"
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:20:39 +1000 (EST)
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Brett Glass wrote:
> Frank and I are not the only people who perceive that FreeBSD is plagued by a
> lack of investment in marketing. Walnut Creek doesn't seem willing to
> make that investment.
> 
> Now, what would you have us do? Sit back and let FreeBSD lose out to Linux?
> Break away from Walnut Creek by publishing another version, thereby fragmenting
> the market and, possibly, development efforts? Neither is a better alternative
> than getting Walnut Creek off its duff, but the latter may be necessary if we
> don't see things change soon.

Maybe you'd be better off looking at other FreeBSD distributions like
http://www.cybernet.com/ (NetMAX), for example, and going out to tell the
world about them. My guess is that people subscribed to this list are tired
of hearing you have verbal tantrums.

-- 
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:14:12 1998
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cc: dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>, Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>,
        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:54:18 MDT."
             <4.1.19981002214258.04211690@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:01:17 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Fweeeeeet!! Godwin's Law. 10 yard penalty and fourth down.

Not if you're trying to end a pointless debate. :)

> Again, the only people who may feel compelled to do this are those
> who are in denial about what's going on.

Ah.  I see, the old "everyone who doesn't agree with me is crazy, and
I don't need to listen to crazy people" argument.  Sorry Brett, it
doesn't wash.  I never said I was in "denial" about FreeBSD needing
better promotion in any case, I said that you were doing nothing
constructive by just bitching but offering very little in the way of
tangible ideas or SUPPORT.  If you want to help, then help more
demonstrably and quit wasting people's time with amounts to little
more than aimless whining.  AimFULL whining would at least contain
some concrete suggestions and elements of your own game plan to get us
out of the terrible situation you seem to feel we're in.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:17:19 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:01:15 MDT."
             <4.1.19981002215535.040ed100@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:05:44 -0700
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> Now, Jordan, THERE's a logical argument that's going to lead to productive
> discourse.

Nor is this.  What's your point?

> Frank and I are not the only people who perceive that FreeBSD is plagued by a
> lack of investment in marketing. Walnut Creek doesn't seem willing to
> make that investment.

Again, and if I have to state this in words no longer than 4 letters
in order that you may understand, I will do so:  Make Concrete Suggestions.

Saying that WC should "market" FreeBSD is about as useful as saying
that mankind should "go" into space.  The key is not in knowing the
right verb, the key is in knowing how and where to apply it.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:17:24 1998
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Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:15:44 -0600
To: John Birrell  <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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At 02:20 PM 10/3/98 +1000, John Birrell wrote:
 
>Maybe you'd be better off looking at other FreeBSD distributions like
>http://www.cybernet.com/ (NetMAX), for example, and going out to tell the
>world about them. My guess is that people subscribed to this list are tired
>of hearing you have verbal tantrums.

If you think that my messages constitute "tantrums," then you're missing the
point. I'm calling for serious investment to stop an alarming trend that's 
getting close to the point of no return.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:22:32 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>,
        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, James Love <love@cptech.org>,
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:05:45 MDT."
             <4.1.19981002220207.0410c590@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:09:28 -0700
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> Nope. I've merely commented that they might be wrong when they've 
> trashed FreeBSD. That's all it takes to get their guns trained on you.

Nice fiction.  Now if only events actually transpired that way..

> Sorry, Jordan, but your denial -- which you express by labeling my 
> perception of the situation as "invective" -- doesn't do anything to

I like that.  I label invective as invective but I'm in denial.
C'mon, Brett, this has nothing to do with your "perception" of the
situation and everything to do with how you're chosing to express your
perceptions.  If and when you use invective to do so, I'll label it as
such and feel confident that if anyone's in denial over that, it's
your good self.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:24:52 1998
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From: John Birrell  <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
Message-Id: <199810030432.OAA19353@cimlogic.com.au>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981002221355.0422fc60@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Oct 2, 98 10:15:44 pm"
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:32:39 +1000 (EST)
Cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, fpawlak@execpc.com,
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Brett Glass wrote:
> At 02:20 PM 10/3/98 +1000, John Birrell wrote:
>  
> >Maybe you'd be better off looking at other FreeBSD distributions like
> >http://www.cybernet.com/ (NetMAX), for example, and going out to tell the
> >world about them. My guess is that people subscribed to this list are tired
> >of hearing you have verbal tantrums.
> 
> If you think that my messages constitute "tantrums," then you're missing the
> point. I'm calling for serious investment to stop an alarming trend that's 
> getting close to the point of no return.

Sorry then, the more you rant, the more the point gets missed. Walnut
Creek is free to choose it's core business and the way it chooses
to run that business. You can say you don't like that. We've heard
you already! I happen to disagree with you.

-- 
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:25:45 1998
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> If you're unwilling to make the obvious and trivial mental connections

My singular point was that your argument made a false connection.  If
you'd like to reverse my own argument on me that's fine with me, but
I was hoping you'd say something interesting.  Moreover, at least my
example had a clear cause and effect reason to it -- where yours
argued that freebsd would be affected in "exactly the opposite" way of
that which is intuitive.  Yes, it's possible for non-intuitive things
to happen, but when they haven't already happened and someone yells,
"Stop the train!", I think you should expect some reasonable scrutiny.

> required to comprehend the information I presented in my message, it's
> not MY problem.

I simply expect your argument to contain facts rather than simply
discrediting those who oppose it.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:25:57 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 08:51:35PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > I have to agree with Brett 100% on this one, while adding that it is
> > damned painful to watch.
> 
> So *DO SOMETHING*.  Geeze, do I have to spell it out in letters of 10
> foot neon?

No neon is necessary.  I hear you aok.

>This is not the cabalistic OS you seem to think it is,
> with people like me controlling every aspect of its progress.  To even
> imagine this gives me way too much credit and conveniently puts aside
> the fact that volunteer labor, both ours and several previous
> generation's worth of grad students, is what got us here today (not
> me).

Jordan, you are taking what I said way to personal, and are reacting as if it
were a personal attach.  I can understand you having strong feelings
about the project.  You once tried to convince me that if the project
folded it would be no bfd, that you'd just move on to studying fish.  I
didn't buy it then and won't buy it now.  But that's not the issue.

It is nonetheless interesting that you are taking it personally.  I am
not attacking you!!!  While admitting I may be getting close to home.
Wonder if you're not as frustrated by this as I am???

>Volunteer labor is also, not so coincidently, what got Linux to
> where it is today in all the areas that you and Brett are crying over.
> It's not Red Hat's doing - they're just surfing the top of the wave
> and trying to make it look as if they're actually steering it.  Poppycock.

You are correct about the labor, but RH and friends are putting mega-bucks
into promotion that is not exactly hurting the cause.  They are also
doing a lot of value add to the distro that they put out.

> You have a choice.  As I have said so many times now that it must be
> becoming a litany, if you want to do FreeBSD a whole bunch of good for
> very little comparative cost, go write a book.  Or a magazine article.
> Or even a 10 page self-help guide (which frequently grow into books
> anyway).  You don't need anyone's help or buy-in or official blessing
> to do any of that, you just need to get up off your asses, stop
> wasting time whining to people who are only going to see it as whining
> anyway, and write the bloody things.  If you're not willing to do that
> much then it follows that you probably didn't actually care as
> passionately about the matter as you thought you did anyway and should
> probably stop wasting people's time with assertions that you do.
> 
> - Jordan

Now we both know about the doing part.  We have been down that road
before, haven't we?  I think that your memory is longer than that. ;-)

    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:29:42 1998
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To: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 23:25:35 CDT."
             <19981002232535.A12054@execpc.com> 
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:18:13 -0700
Message-ID: <11479.907388293@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Jordan, you are taking what I said way to personal, and are reacting as if it
> were a personal attach.  I can understand you having strong feelings

Uh, no.  I'm taking this as a waste of my time (and of those poor
people who have to read this) and am reacting accordingly.  Don't
start jumping at phantoms when perfectly visible issues are more
clearly before you.

> Now we both know about the doing part.  We have been down that road
> before, haven't we?  I think that your memory is longer than that. ;-)

Yeah, that's right - you did flake out once before on this, now that I
think about it.  So why are you even raising the issue again? :-)

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:30:15 1998
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CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002190913.040f3b60@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981002202119.040f7c30@mail.lariat.org> <36158FA2.FB67AC24@u.washington.edu> <19981002221451.D11661@execpc.com>
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> I won't bother with the logical correctness of your argument, I'll just say
> that it bullshit and let it lay there.

Thanks for contributing.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:43:38 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 00:40:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lanny Baron <beef@cybertouch.org>
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Subject: FreeBSD and Linux
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	Hmm seems like some kind of war. Just what the other camp wants.
Maybe some ppl should get together, offer shares or go after some venture
capital and start marketing FreeBSD well.

	Just yesterday I went down to the University of Toronto. To the
main bookstore on campus. I did find FreeBSD 2.2.7. But I must be honest
and say that I found several different versions (for a lack of better
words) of Linux. Well one very good thing can be said (assuming I know
enough ...which I  probably don't) and that is, FreeBSD is ONE. Sort of
all encompassing. 

	Part of the problem might be that there is not a lot for business
applications made for the FreeBSD platform (and if they are for accounting
for example, they should not be for free). Genesys did point out to me a
company which sells a true file server, uses FreeBSD and does NOT state
that the operating system for their file-server is FreeBSD. That sucks.

	You have that little daemon pic on all your cd's and on Mr.
Lehey's book The Complete FreeBSD. Damn that is a good pic. Why don't you
do marketing with that? Get posters, get brochures. Shit send them to me
and I will go to the University of Toronto and get them in the book store
not to mention the large chain stores.

	I have hooked up with a well known person in the FreeBSD community
to attempt to make a accounting system (gui) for the FreeBSD os. But as
you are aware or should be, it is massive. I have talked with friends
(accountants--c.a's in the u.s. they are certified public accountants) and
they say that this is a huge undertaking. That is one of the reasons I
needed to learn about samba. 

	Anyway, I would not hit the panic button. For one thing FreeBSD is
far easier to install than Linux is. But if you can either get a public
offering of shares or some venture capital, you certainly have the human
resources in the FreeBSD community to "kick ass"

Now go do it.

Lanny


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:44:38 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
        Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:01:15 MDT."
             <4.1.19981002215535.040ed100@mail.lariat.org> 
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> Frank and I are not the only people who perceive that FreeBSD is plagued by a
> lack of investment in marketing. Walnut Creek doesn't seem willing to
> make that investment.

As someone relatively impartial in this spittle-fest, I would just like 
to point out that Walnut Creek are not "unwilling" to make any 
investment in FreeBSD.

Quite the contrary in fact; most businesses wouldn't even dream of
spending as much to promote and support the FreeBSD Project as WC does.  
I doubt that any one organisation has spent, or continues to spend, 
more money in direct support of any open-source operating system 
project.

The "problem" is that they're effectively alone.  Apart from some (often
generous) donations from other organisations, Walnut Creek are the only
company spending money on FreeBSD as such.  We're spending about as 
much as we can make right now, and investing more.

If you want an idea of the issues here, Walnut Creek has three employees
working on FreeBSD fulltime.  RedHat have fifty.  We spend a lot of
money on infrastructure (ftp.cdrom.com, the FreeBSD cluster, hardware
donations to developers), while RedHat write manuals and put them in a
pretty box.  That gives them a lot of time to write press releases.

Draw what "conclusions" you like from the situation.  Whatever you come 
up with, don't think you can point the finger at us for not trying.  
You're welcome to a slice of my ulcer.


-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 21:44:45 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>,
        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 20:48:17 MDT."             <4.1.19981002204214.0420a940@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981002214258.04211690@mail.lariat.org>
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> >If it's your intention to communicate anything more
> >substantive than "if you see one of my messages, hit delete to avoid
> >the heat" then I'd say that you are failing to do so.
> 
> Again, the only people who may feel compelled to do this are those
> who are in denial about what's going on.

Or those who refuse to present any arguments other than those that are
not provable.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 22:03:51 1998
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On 10-02-98 @ 21:30:03GMT, Malarte <malarte@aei.ca> wrote:
> 
> I was having a really good vision has I can remember from 1 year or so.
> Now I'm a little bit paranoic and I'm always checking how I see since I
> am on a computer. I have the paranoiac not so fun feeling than my vision
> is slowly decreasing.
> Are there any study/link on how can a computer screen damage your eye?
> I have a 0.28 17" screen with a 1024X768 resolution.
> Anyone here who have done 20 year of computing without wearing glasses?

11 years, not 20.  I wear glasses to correct for astigmatism but when
I'm at the computer they make my eyes strain.  So I quit wearing them
and found that my displays are positioned at just the right distance
that I don't have to strain my eyes to focus on them.

Nearsightedness: The ultimate in display ergonomics. :-)

> Anyone tried those crazy filter they sell you for 99$?

You mean those polarized glare filters?  They're a waste unless you're
getting glare from nearby lights and windows and you can't move the
lightsources/monitor.

What I do is darken the color schemes and turn down the brightness and
contrast (just a little), then position a light so that it illuminates
the frame and surrounding desk area.  My preference is a 60 watt rose-
tinted incandescent light bounced off the wall or ceiling.  Bounce the
light, not the lamp, that is.

-- 
Knowledge is the perception of truth distorted by reality

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 22:07:47 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 00:07:20 -0500
From: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <19981002232535.A12054@execpc.com> <11479.907388293@time.cdrom.com>
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 09:18:13PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > Jordan, you are taking what I said way to personal, and are reacting as if it
> > were a personal attach.  I can understand you having strong feelings
> 
> Uh, no.  I'm taking this as a waste of my time (and of those poor
> people who have to read this) and am reacting accordingly.  Don't
> start jumping at phantoms when perfectly visible issues are more
> clearly before you.

What phantoms? Where?

Now and again it is good for the soul for someone like Brett to come
forward an piss on the flag to get people to think.  But every time that
is met with hostility here. Again your taking it as a personal attack.
I happen to think that he is correct about some of the issues, and has a
valid point to make.  Perhaps what you are hearing is not so much
criticism as real concerns and disappointment over what is happening.
That doesn't deserve to get shouted down, but rather deserves airing as
much as an announcement of converting an SCO user to FreeBSD.

I think that he is correct about the marketing issue.  I happen to
believe that FreeBSD is the superior UNIX, but, hate to hell to see it
coming in second place.  That is just my competitive nature, but if
that's a waist of time, well perhaps it is better spent elsewhere.

> > Now we both know about the doing part.  We have been down that road
> > before, haven't we?  I think that your memory is longer than that. ;-)
> 
> Yeah, that's right - you did flake out once before on this, now that I
> think about it.  So why are you even raising the issue again? :-)
> - Jordan

WOW!!!!! What's with this flake stuff??  That is not the whole picture
and don't appreciate it being presented that way.  In fact, I have a
white-paper here in various stages of completion, and am still waiting for
some docs from someone that I felt would be helpful in completing it.
Talk about flakes. ;-)  Further, I am aware of more than one plan that I
presented to advocacy and for one reason or another they didn't get off
the ground.  So what the fsck are you referring to?
-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 22:12:31 1998
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From: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
To: dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002190913.040f3b60@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981002202119.040f7c30@mail.lariat.org> <36158FA2.FB67AC24@u.washington.edu> <19981002221451.D11661@execpc.com> <3615A921.B754E77C@u.washington.edu>
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On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 09:33:37PM -0700, dmorrisn wrote:
> > I won't bother with the logical correctness of your argument, I'll just say
> > that it bullshit and let it lay there.
> 
> Thanks for contributing.

That's a great come back.  I like that.
-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 22:16:07 1998
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To: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's
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On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 12:21:03AM -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote:
> 
> I just wanted to report that today I finally got rid of my 25th (out of
> 25) 2.2.6 CD's generously donated by WC.
> There are now 25 offices/companies running FreeBSD as a front line server.
> Some were ALOT harder to sway than others but with a little "Run this on a
> main front line server cause im not taking no for an answer" and some
> basics facts about our superior heritage and power all went basically
> smooth. So we can now add another 25 companies to running FreeBSD on the
> front lines in some capacity. Anyway just a quick update. Anyone else have
> any stories about their luck with their CD's?
> 
> Chris

That's a great story about a job well done.  I seemed to have less of a
problem getting rid of mine.  I never received any.

-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 22:31:45 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 00:31:08 -0500
From: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <4.1.19981002215535.040ed100@mail.lariat.org> <199810030449.VAA00453@word.smith.net.au>
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O, Oct 02, 1998 at 09:49:12PM -0700, Mike Smith wrote:
> > Frank and I are not the only people who perceive that FreeBSD is plagued by a
> > lack of investment in marketing. Walnut Creek doesn't seem willing to
> > make that investment.
> 
> As someone relatively impartial in this spittle-fest, I would just like 
> to point out that Walnut Creek are not "unwilling" to make any 
> investment in FreeBSD.
 
Never said or implied that you are not making efforts, and that what you
are doing is not appreciated.

> Quite the contrary in fact; most businesses wouldn't even dream of
> spending as much to promote and support the FreeBSD Project as WC does.  
> I doubt that any one organisation has spent, or continues to spend, 
> more money in direct support of any open-source operating system 
> project.
> 
> The "problem" is that they're effectively alone.  Apart from some (often
> generous) donations from other organisations, Walnut Creek are the only
> company spending money on FreeBSD as such.  We're spending about as 
> much as we can make right now, and investing more.
> 
> If you want an idea of the issues here, Walnut Creek has three employees
> working on FreeBSD fulltime.  RedHat have fifty.  We spend a lot of
> money on infrastructure (ftp.cdrom.com, the FreeBSD cluster, hardware
> donations to developers), while RedHat write manuals and put them in a
> pretty box.  That gives them a lot of time to write press releases.
> 
> Draw what "conclusions" you like from the situation.  Whatever you come 
> up with, don't think you can point the finger at us for not trying.  
> You're welcome to a slice of my ulcer.
> 

Know about ulcers.  Just had a business hit the rock myself.

You are apparently part of Walnut Creek CDROM, therefor I have just one
question.  I have seven major universities within an hour and a half
driving time from where I live and work.  This includes two of the top
engineering and three of the top business schools in the country.  Why is
FreeBSD not present in the bookstores along with Linux and other Open
Source Operating Systems?  I am of the impression that Walnut Creek user
the same wholesalers as does RedHat and Caldera.  That situation puzzles
the hell out of me.  If just that one situation were to be fixed, it
would mean a major step in the promotion of FreeSBD and start getting it
the recognition it so well deserves.
-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 22:34:11 1998
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To: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
cc: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
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> On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 12:21:03AM -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote:
> > 
> > I just wanted to report that today I finally got rid of my 25th (out of
> > 25) 2.2.6 CD's generously donated by WC.
> > There are now 25 offices/companies running FreeBSD as a front line server.
> > Some were ALOT harder to sway than others but with a little "Run this on a
> > main front line server cause im not taking no for an answer" and some
> > basics facts about our superior heritage and power all went basically
> > smooth. So we can now add another 25 companies to running FreeBSD on the
> > front lines in some capacity. Anyway just a quick update. Anyone else have
> > any stories about their luck with their CD's?
> > 
> > Chris
> 
> That's a great story about a job well done.  I seemed to have less of a
> problem getting rid of mine.  I never received any.

I'd have to guess that was because you weren't able to convince us that 
you would have done something useful with them.  Since we gave 
literally thousands of them away, that ought to give you some idea as 
to where you need to start addressing your image.

If you were keeping up to date, you'd have some idea as to how 
substantial a donation the giveaway exercise was.  One more poke in the 
eye for your "WC isn't willing to try hard enough" argument.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 22:41:23 1998
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
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> You are apparently part of Walnut Creek CDROM, therefor I have just one
> question.  I have seven major universities within an hour and a half
> driving time from where I live and work.  This includes two of the top
> engineering and three of the top business schools in the country.  Why is
> FreeBSD not present in the bookstores along with Linux and other Open
> Source Operating Systems?  I am of the impression that Walnut Creek user
> the same wholesalers as does RedHat and Caldera.  That situation puzzles
> the hell out of me.  If just that one situation were to be fixed, it
> would mean a major step in the promotion of FreeSBD and start getting it
> the recognition it so well deserves.

Bookshops specify what they want on their shelves.  If the bookshop/
chain doesn't see a demand for FreeBSD, they won't stock it.

With a university bookstore, demand generally comes in a couple of 
different forms.

 - Faculty advising the bookstore that a title is required for one or 
   more courses they are teaching.  This is usually the most effective
   technique.
 - Substantial ordering activity by customers; this generally requires 
   students and faculty to put up with buying an unstocked title and 
   waiting for it to arrive.  This can be effective if the store is 
   attentively managed.
 - Bookstore management reading the popular press.  This requires there 
   to be popular press exposure for your product.  It also requires the
   bookstore management be capable of reading.

We push FreeBSD to our wholesalers and as many bookstores as we can.  
It's not viable to enter the "supermarket" bookstore chains (where you 
put your stock up basically on commission), because we can't make money 
there even as a loss-leader.

If you expect FreeBSD to have the same 9-day fame as Linux, you need 
the same ingredients.  We have a different mix, and our growing success 
is proceeding along different lines.  A forklift isn't going to win any 
races, but it'll move a lot more cargo than a Ferrari.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct  2 23:14:05 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:13:38 +1000 (EST)
From: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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If this thread is going to become productive any time soon, ppl need to
start contributing to solutions rather than simply airing perceived
problems. As has been stated time and time again, FreeBSD is open source
and open development, if you think somethings wrong with it - you're
free to go ahead and fix it yourself.

However, much of this isn't to do with source code issues, but rather
marketing issues. A lot of criticism has been directed towards Walnut
Creek, and many people have said "if you want a more commercial freebsd
distribution, go out there and do it". This is where the discussion
typically ends. There are many out there willing to point out flaws with
the way Walnut Creek is handling distribution and whatnot of FreeBSD,
but very few are willing to translate that into action and do something
about it.

So for those of you out there who fit into the former profile, and are
quick to point out flaws without providing solutions, I would ask you to
be quiet until you have something worth saying. If you want to make a
difference, you are free to go ahead and do so. But do not ask those out
there who ARE working on solutions to do that which *you* are not willing
to do yourself.

Nick

--
Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb 
Key fingerprint =  DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D  A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A
"When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 00:43:26 1998
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On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Lanny Baron wrote:

[snip]
>	You have that little daemon pic on all your cd's and on Mr.
>Lehey's book The Complete FreeBSD. Damn that is a good pic. Why don't you
>do marketing with that? Get posters, get brochures. Shit send them to me
>and I will go to the University of Toronto and get them in the book store
>not to mention the large chain stores.

	No. YOU get posters. YOU get brochures. Do you think Linus was
doing all the advocacy and marketing for Linux? No - the users were. Linus
writes code. And that is exactly what FreeBSD people are doing right now,
especially with 3.0 coming up.
	I suggest you get the poster, you spread the word and people will
follow you.

>
>	I have hooked up with a well known person in the FreeBSD community
>to attempt to make a accounting system (gui) for the FreeBSD os. But as
>you are aware or should be, it is massive. I have talked with friends
>(accountants--c.a's in the u.s. they are certified public accountants) and
>they say that this is a huge undertaking. That is one of the reasons I
>needed to learn about samba. 
>
>	Anyway, I would not hit the panic button. For one thing FreeBSD is
>far easier to install than Linux is. But if you can either get a public
>offering of shares or some venture capital, you certainly have the human
>resources in the FreeBSD community to "kick ass"
>
>Now go do it.

	Lead us by example.

-- Yan


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 02:02:30 1998
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On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

>> Fweeeeeet!! Godwin's Law. 10 yard penalty and fourth down.
>
>Not if you're trying to end a pointless debate. :)

NOPE! Purposeful invocations of Godwins law are ineffective. I believe
it's a corollary.

I really can't believe I actually know this stuff. When they finally call
me "nerd" I will blush. If they ever call me guru I will pass out.

Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 02:12:43 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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Folks,
 Maybe I've missed something, but is there some kind of Giveaway CD thing
with BSD? (according to the subject). I guess it would be cool, since we
have lots of BSD hangry students around, who would want to "try it on".
So they would probably like trying some old BSD thing..


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 04:05:16 1998
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To: CyberPsychotic <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>
From: Kevin Lam <kevla@studentmail.dis.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD.4.02.9810031428390.425-100000@freenet.kg>
References: <199810030539.WAA00698@word.smith.net.au>
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At 14:30 10/3/98 +0500, CyberPsychotic wrote:
>
>Folks,
> Maybe I've missed something, but is there some kind of Giveaway CD thing
>with BSD? (according to the subject). I guess it would be cool, since we
>have lots of BSD hangry students around, who would want to "try it on".
>So they would probably like trying some old BSD thing..

Why not roll your own? Grab the most current -RELEASE from the FTP site
(even on a modem, you could concievably move 180MB in a night, I did that
for a -SNAP), and warm up the CD-R.. and since this is FREEBSD after all,
you could concievably pass around those CD-Rs you make without violation of
copyright ;)

--
K

"Deliver yesterday, code today, think tomorrow."

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 04:25:42 1998
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To: CyberPsychotic <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>,
        Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 14:30:12 +0500."
             <Pine.BSD.4.02.9810031428390.425-100000@freenet.kg> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 04:13:40 -0700
Message-ID: <12386.907413220@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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>  Maybe I've missed something, but is there some kind of Giveaway CD thing
> with BSD? (according to the subject). I guess it would be cool, since we
> have lots of BSD hangry students around, who would want to "try it on".
> So they would probably like trying some old BSD thing..

It's something I do with all the old stock whenever we release a new
CD, 2.2.6 being a special case because I had multiple thousands to
give away.  Anyone who also still thinks WC doesn't contribute to
FreeBSD's promotion is welcome to have a look at the final bill for
shipping and materials - I think it came to around $65,000.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 04:31:07 1998
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To: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 00:07:20 CDT."
             <19981003000720.A12261@execpc.com> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 04:19:34 -0700
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> Now and again it is good for the soul for someone like Brett to come
> forward an piss on the flag to get people to think.  But every time that
> is met with hostility here. Again your taking it as a personal attack.

Erm, this is something of a conflicting statement.  How could "pissing
on the flag", as you put it, fail to do anything other than raise
people's blood pressure?  All that proves to me is that pissing on
flags is not the proper way to win friends and influence people and,
as a mode of self expression, leaves much to be desired.

> WOW!!!!! What's with this flake stuff??  That is not the whole picture
> and don't appreciate it being presented that way.  In fact, I have a
> white-paper here in various stages of completion, and am still waiting for
> some docs from someone that I felt would be helpful in completing it.

Dude, you flaked.  Period.  If you had the drive and inclination to
finish whatever forms of advocacy you started, they'd be finished now
and blaming others for "not helping you enough" is just a bald attempt
at shifting the blame for inaction somewhere else.  I said it quite
clearly several exchanges back: You don't need anyone's help to write
a magazine article or do promotion.  It's nice when you can get 5 or
so people together for a group effort, sure, but waiting to find those
5 people before doing anything at all is just a great way of
accomplishing nothing.

> Talk about flakes. ;-)  Further, I am aware of more than one plan that I
> presented to advocacy and for one reason or another they didn't get off
> the ground.  So what the fsck are you referring to?

You are the pilot in charge.  If your plane doesn't leave the ground,
it's your responsibility to figure out why and fix it.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 05:12:18 1998
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From: Andre Oppermann <oppermann@pipeline.ch>
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
CC: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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Brett Glass wrote:
> 
> At 12:53 PM 9/30/98 -0600, Wes Peters wrote:
> 
> >Linux compatibility is one of the
> >most important features of FreeBSD.  As the market for commercial Linux
> >applications grows, so does the market for commercial FreeBSD applications.
> 
> History has proven exactly the opposite. The introduction of Windows
> application support in OS/2 actually accelerated its demise. If FreeBSD
> starts billing itself as "a better Linux than Linux" it will fall into
> precisely the same trap and will never catch up.

Yea, and it seems that Jordans "a better Linux than Linux" doesn't work
either. Take a look on the license restrictions of the recently released
database packages... We are forbidden to run it on FreeBSD... (but I
don't
think this restriction is lawful, IMHO we can ignore it)

-- 
Andre

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 05:15:59 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 05:15:35 -0700
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: October BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) Meeting
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                       Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group
                                -- BAFUG --



The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly
meeting on Thursday, October 8. This months meeting will be held at The
Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will
start at 7:30 pm. 


Agenda:
    ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will tag-team on the topic of
        TCP wrappers. TCP Wrappers, which is part of our ports collection,
        is a package to monitor and filter incoming service requests at an
        IP layer. Hence it is very handy in security work.

    ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for
        the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on October 24 at the Robert
        Austin Computer show at the Cow Palace in Daly City. This
        Install-a-thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux
        Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux) See 

            http://www.bafug.org/Install.html

        for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow
        Palace. 
 
    ==> bafug.org is off and running! Thanks to Jan Koum and Nicole
        Harrington. The FreeBSD Retail page and Counter page have been
        moved to this site. Suggestions are welcome. 

    ==> Donations of hardware are needed to build BAFUG a test machine
        for use at the Install-a-thons. 

    ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. 

    ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics


Location:
    This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco.
    The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison 
    Streets. There is plenty parking on the street.


Time:
    The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The 
    meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so
    to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm.


Directions:

    By Muni:
        Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights
        stop nearby. 

    By BART: 
        Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning
        left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street,
        on the right (south) side. 

    By Car: 
    From the South Bay and Peninsula
        Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn 
        left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed
        eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa
        dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th
        Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. 

    From the East Bay:
        Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th
        street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine
        blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes
        under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed
        about one full block, and park where you can. 

    From the North Bay:
        Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into
        Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van
        Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can.


WWW info:
    More info can be found at the following URLs

        http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf.html
        http://www.reef.com
        http://www.freebsd-support.com
        http://www.bafug.org/Install.html


Contact:
    Please contact either Ian Kallen, Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on
    or before October 8th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza,
    soda, and coffee we will need.   

    Ian Kallen can be reached at ian@gamespot.com
    Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com
    Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com
    


-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 2.2.7
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 05:29:00 1998
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To: Andre Oppermann <oppermann@pipeline.ch>
cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>,
        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 14:11:46 +0200."
             <36161482.7373B67E@pipeline.ch> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 05:16:05 -0700
Message-ID: <12675.907416965@time.cdrom.com>
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> Yea, and it seems that Jordans "a better Linux than Linux" doesn't work
> either. Take a look on the license restrictions of the recently released

Please don't put words in my mouth.  At no point have I ever said or
suggested that FreeBSD is or should be "a better Linux than Linux."
The only thing I've come out in strong vocal support of is the linux
binary emulation code, which hardly constitutes the same thing.  You
can run an OS's binaries without sharing a single other characteristic
of its implementation.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 06:52:50 1998
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        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>,
        "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981002190913.040f3b60@mail.lariat.org> <36158AD6.811BD16E@u.washington.edu> <4.1.19981002202119.040f7c30@mail.lariat.org> <19981003123016.W2176@freebie.lemis.com>
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Allow me to offer a few comments on the FreeBSD/Linux thing.  First, we
plan to test a FreeBSD machine in our office.  We initially planed to
test Linux/FreeBSD/BeOS all at once, but it became clear this was a bit
much, given my time and the available hardware, so it is taking some
time.

Second, I think it is quite possibly the case the the rise of a linux as
an alternative is a story that users can understand better than the rise
of 3 or 4 alternatives.  As a first step, it is important to make people
understand that MS isn't the only option.


Third, I would imagine if people can learn to use Linux (not that simple
for Windows users, it seems to me), then it is far far easier to try
FreeBSD, which basically works the same way.  I use a FreeBSD manual to
figure out how to do a lot of things in Linux right now.  Speaking as a
user and not an advocate for a moment, I find the learning for one
platform pretty useful for the other. Maybe this is why Sun is
supporting Linux, even while it wants to sell Solaris.  

Fourth, I think many Linux users are supportive of FreeBSD and rather
agonistic about the licensing issues.    Probably a minority of users
(but a majority of advocates) care a lot about the licensing issues.

   Jamie Love

-- 
James Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
http://www.cptech.org love@cptech.org
202.387.8030, fax 202.234.5176

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 06:57:19 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
CC: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>,
        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>,
        "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <4.1.19981002202119.040f7c30@mail.lariat.org>
	 <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com>
	 <4.1.19981002190913.040f3b60@mail.lariat.org>
	 <36158AD6.811BD16E@u.washington.edu>
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Brett Glass wrote:
> I disagree. Someone who seeks to do you harm is, by definition, an enemy.
> Microsoft has not done any direct harm to FreeBSD; in fact, they have tacitly
> endorsed it by using the code for the BSD FTP, dig, and traceroute utilities.
> The Linux camp, on the other hand, has openly attacked FreeBSD.



   It seems to me that Brett would like to kill Linux as 
   a platform, perhaps because of the GPL, which he
   appears to really hate.  

   I think this is a mistake, and not particularly
   contructive, but Brett has his reasons.

   At a point, hwoever, one has to question just about
   anything Brett is saying about Linux, because he
   seems (to me) to have have lost perspective.

   And I say this considering Brett one of the 
   jewels of the community, whose expertise and
   advice I regularly rely upon and value.

   jamie


-- 
James Love
Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
http://www.cptech.org love@cptech.org
202.387.8030, fax 202.234.5176

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On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> Not all of the equipment which was shipped down here for the upgrade
> made it in one piece.  I know that they were trying to emergency
> order replacement bits yesterday but don't know the status of the
> machine today.  AFAIK, David Greenman is still down here and working
> away on it.

    Hurray for David then, because it's back up now!

Welcome to wcarchive - home FTP site for Walnut Creek CDROM.
There are currently 295 users out of 3200 possible.
[...]
This machine is a P6/200 with 1GB of memory & 1/2 terabyte of RAID 5.
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-- 
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 08:32:29 1998
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From: Marty Cawthon <mrc@ChipChat.com>
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On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, spork wrote:
> 
> Is it just me, or is the LCD screen easiest to look at for long stretches?
> 
> Waiting for flat panel prices to drop,
> 

  We recently used several Eizo Flat Panel Displays, 15 inch, at an
"Internet Cafe" at a local cultural event.
  It was unanimous among many people that the quality of the images
was better than a CRT (Cathode Ray Tube) - especially for displays of
images (photos).

  A technical reason for this better quality might be that a CRT shoots
out a beam of electrons, which is guided by Electric and Magnetic fields
thru a "shadow mask" and ultimately to a spot on the inside of the
monitor that lights up "Red", "Blue", or "Green". It's impossible for
the focus of that beam to be perfect over the entire screen, so some
of the beam "spills over" to the next 'pixel' of color.
  Put your nose against your monitor and look - you will see the
imperfections. It will vary from one part of your screen to another.

  The LCD (Liquid Crystal Display) is solid state, so there are "no moving
parts"  - no electron beam traversing long distances. Put your nose
against one of these and you see a 'perfect' image.

  The Eizo monitors we used were priced at US$ 2999. in January.
In July they were US$ 1999. And in September a new model (better)
was introduced at US$ 1599. 
  Eizo loaned them to us for the cultural event at which they appeared,
so I remain true to the fiscal thinking of my Scottish ancestors.
  The trend is clear.... these monitors will soon be affordable.

  In the meantime I am still eating lots of carrots.

Marty Cawthon
ChipChat



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 08:58:10 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:57:36 +0200
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Duncan Barclay <dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 04:01:46PM +0100, Duncan Barclay wrote:
> PS. How do people remember to add -d to a cvs update? I got burnt on this until
> I RTFM'd.

echo update -P -d >> ~/.cvsrc
echo diff -u >> ~/.cvsrc

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 09:37:12 1998
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:36:07 -0600
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>, Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>,
        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 09:01 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>Ah.  I see, the old "everyone who doesn't agree with me is crazy, and
>I don't need to listen to crazy people" argument.

Not so. However, I refuse to be "trolled" by those who say "you haven't
given any facts," conveniently ignoring that I have.

>If you want to help, then help more
>demonstrably and quit wasting people's time with amounts to little
>more than aimless whining.

Jordan, I could just as well dismiss YOUR protestations as "aimless
whining" if my goal were to attempt to trivialize and/or end the
discussion with nothing resolved. Part of my purpose here
is to see whether Walnut Creek actually WILL get off its duff and
do something, or if the investment must come from without and be
financed by the sale of an alternative release of the software.
This would hurt your employer, but unless things turn around, it may
be the ONLY way to prevent FreeBSD from sinking into obscurity.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 09:46:32 1998
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 09:05 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>Again, and if I have to state this in words no longer than 4 letters
>in order that you may understand, I will do so:  Make Concrete Suggestions.

Well, #1 would be for Walnut Creek to hire someone who knows how to do
effective marketing. And give that person a budget that allows him or
her to do so.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 09:46:37 1998
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
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At 09:18 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>Uh, no.  I'm taking this as a waste of my time (and of those poor
>people who have to read this) and am reacting accordingly.  

This is, I'm afraid, a textbook definition of "denial."

>Yeah, that's right - you did flake out once before on this, now that I
>think about it.  So why are you even raising the issue again? :-)

Jordan, again you are attacking the messenger. I doubt that Frank
"flaked out" in any way, shape, or form. Why are you so eager to
dismiss what he says instead of listening?

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 09:46:41 1998
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To: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 02:20 PM 10/3/98 +1000, John Birrell wrote:
 
>Maybe you'd be better off looking at other FreeBSD distributions like
>http://www.cybernet.com/ (NetMAX), for example, 

>From what I can see, NetMAX could be a worthy alternative but is priced
quite high. It's tough to tell whether it would make it at a $500
price point.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 09:59:47 1998
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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At 09:47 PM 10/2/98 -0700, dmorrisn wrote:
 
>Or those who refuse to present any arguments other than those that are
>not provable.

This is an old, hackneyed "trolling" tactic: Claim that a point has not
been "proven" and then refuse to accept any proof in a hope that the
other side will simply leave in disgust.

Sorry; won't work.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 09:59:56 1998
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At 04:13 PM 10/3/98 +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote:
 
>A lot of criticism has been directed towards Walnut
>Creek, and many people have said "if you want a more commercial freebsd
>distribution, go out there and do it". This is where the discussion
>typically ends. There are many out there willing to point out flaws with
>the way Walnut Creek is handling distribution and whatnot of FreeBSD,
>but very few are willing to translate that into action and do something
>about it.

Unfortunately, the only way to do this is to cut into Walnut Creek's
sales, in effect hurting its current efforts. I suspect that the reason
there have not been alternative distributions (other than a token effort
by Cheap Bytes) is that people do not want to do this.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:01:47 1998
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:54:25 -0600
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
        Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 09:49 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>As someone relatively impartial in this spittle-fest, I would just like 
>to point out that Walnut Creek are not "unwilling" to make any 
>investment in FreeBSD.
>
>Quite the contrary in fact; most businesses wouldn't even dream of
>spending as much to promote and support the FreeBSD Project as WC does.  

Well, then, where are the ads? Where are the value-added utilities?
Where's the advocacy? Where are the press releases? Where are the
announcements from Intel, Corel, Caldera, Novell, Oracle, Sybase,
etc.?

Obviously, WC is not doing quite the job that Red Hat is doing.

>I doubt that any one organisation has spent, or continues to spend, 
>more money in direct support of any open-source operating system 
>project.

Well, if it's spending more money than Red Hat, it must be pouring
it down the drain, because it is not accomplishing any of the things
mentioned above.

>The "problem" is that they're effectively alone.  Apart from some (often
>generous) donations from other organisations, Walnut Creek are the only
>company spending money on FreeBSD as such.  We're spending about as 
>much as we can make right now, and investing more.

Would Walnut Creek rather see a schism which would reduce its revenue
scheme from the product?

>If you want an idea of the issues here, Walnut Creek has three employees
>working on FreeBSD fulltime.  RedHat have fifty.  

Waitaminnit. Just above, you said that you doubted that "any one organisation 
has spent, or continues to spend, more money [than WC] in direct support 
of any open-source operating system project." Yet, here, you say that
Red Hat is devoting the full time efforts of 50 employees to the project!
Something does not add up! Running a bigger FTP server is a drop in the
bucket compared to the cost of 50 employees.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:08:09 1998
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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At 04:19 AM 10/3/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>Erm, this is something of a conflicting statement.  How could "pissing
>on the flag", as you put it, fail to do anything other than raise
>people's blood pressure?  

With all due respect for Frank, I don't believe that I was "pissing
on the flag" by pointing out that the situation is worrisome.

>You are the pilot in charge.  If your plane doesn't leave the ground,
>it's your responsibility to figure out why and fix it.

Frank is NOT the pilot in charge. That role has so far been delegated
to Walnut Creek. Formal marketing is best done by full-time 
professionals, and press releases are routinely ignored unless they
come from an established vendor. The pilot has abandoned the wheel
and left the cockpit, and is now complaining that no passenger is
flying the plane from his or her seat.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:09:51 1998
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:00:59 -0600
To: CyberPsychotic <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>,
        Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
Cc: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>,
        Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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I was debating asking for some of the 2.2.6 giveaway CDs, but opted
not to do so. Why? Because that release had some security problems
that could actually sour some folks on FreeBSD. We were rooted as
a result of one of them.

--Brett

At 02:30 PM 10/3/98 +0500, CyberPsychotic wrote:
 
>
>Folks,
> Maybe I've missed something, but is there some kind of Giveaway CD thing
>with BSD? (according to the subject). I guess it would be cool, since we
>have lots of BSD hangry students around, who would want to "try it on".
>So they would probably like trying some old BSD thing..
>
>
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:18:44 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:43:01 MDT."
             <4.1.19981003104109.040e26d0@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:07:08 -0700
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> This is, I'm afraid, a textbook definition of "denial."

You overuse the term.  Find a new one or leave psychology to those who
are qualified to practice it.

> Jordan, again you are attacking the messenger. I doubt that Frank
> "flaked out" in any way, shape, or form. Why are you so eager to
> dismiss what he says instead of listening?

I "attack" Frank for making a lot of suggestions but showing an
alarming lack of follow-through.  Those who only talk but don't do are
easily dismissed and well they should be - who has the time to listen
to an army of back-seat drivers when there are so many more ACTIVE
people already standing in line and awaiting some encouragement?

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:21:56 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:58:39 MDT."
             <4.1.19981003105717.041c3760@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:10:20 -0700
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> Unfortunately, the only way to do this is to cut into Walnut Creek's
> sales, in effect hurting its current efforts. I suspect that the reason
> there have not been alternative distributions (other than a token effort
> by Cheap Bytes) is that people do not want to do this.

I doubt that any businessman who saw a buck in this would have such
qualms at all.  There is already a very large set of individuals out
there who feel not the slightest allegiance to Walnut Creek CDROM and
would go out and start their own distribution in a heartbeat if it
weren't also for the fact that they knew how much work it was.  Again,
you seem to have a lot of general accusations to make but nothing more
concrete than "hire a marketing guy and give him some money" to make
as a suggestion, a pretty poor condensation of what's got to be
several pages of text by now.  And yes, we have just recently hired a
marketing guy and given him some money, as I already stated in another
posting, and your unwillingness to even give him time to succeed
before going for Walnut Creek CDROM's jugular does you no credit.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:24:08 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:23:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Marty Cawthon <mrc@ChipChat.com>
To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
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On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Brett Glass wrote:
<CHOP>
> ... Part of my purpose here
> is to see whether Walnut Creek actually WILL get off its duff and
> do something, or if the investment must come from without and be
> financed by the sale of an alternative release of the software.
<CHOP>

  It is impertinent for any of us to preach to Walnut Creek
"How to run their business", unless we are an investor
or an officer or possibly an employee of that company.

  I am grateful to Walnut Creek for publishing  Mr Lehey's book
and the CD-ROMs. That and the "cute catchy BSDaemon logo" convinced
me to pursue FreeBSD.

  The attention paid to Linux is a good thing for BSD.

  Consider: In a world dominated by Microsoft with DOS/Windows, as it
is now, how difficult is it to convince:
  A) A vendor to write a commercial application for BSD?
     Difficult: Win32 is much different than Unix.

  B) A corporate IT person to implement a BSD server?
     Difficult: Administration is different, non-MS software is 'risky'.

  C) A user to load and learn to use BSD?
     Difficult: Windows is "where it is at" (gasp, choke, cough)

  Consider those same questions in a world where, let's say 30% of
computers use Linux, and maybe 5% run BSD.
  A) Easy for vendors to build a BSD version, code is similar.
  B) Easy for Corporate IT people to try BSD: Similar to Linux
  C) Easy for individulal users: X, BASH, etc is the same.

  Rather than kick and scream about the attention being paid to Linux,
be happy about it! It stirs up the pot, draws attention to Free and
Open Software (GPL and Berkeley and (?) style licenses) and gets
people to think "Maybe there is something other than Microsoft".
It really is good for BSD.

  Linux enthusiasts and BSD enthusiasts should think of each other as
allies. Not clones of each other, but allies. Each camp can have
different philosophies, yet still learn from the other, and help each
other. Of course, each will feel superior to the other, but let's
encourage moderation with these feelings.

Marty Cawthon
ChipChat


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:30:37 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 10:07 AM 10/3/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>I "attack" Frank for making a lot of suggestions but showing an
>alarming lack of follow-through.

Frank is not the appropriate person to follow through on marketing.
A for-profit vendor of FreeBSD CD-ROMs is.

--Brett

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:30:38 1998
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 10:10 AM 10/3/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>> Unfortunately, the only way to do this is to cut into Walnut Creek's
>> sales, in effect hurting its current efforts. I suspect that the reason
>> there have not been alternative distributions (other than a token effort
>> by Cheap Bytes) is that people do not want to do this.
>
>I doubt that any businessman who saw a buck in this would have such
>qualms at all.  

Ah, but these people are sensitive to more than the issue of making a
buck. They recognize that one of FreeBSD's strengths is that it's
not a fragmented effort, and do not wish to hurt the product as much as
they help it.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:30:54 1998
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:22:26 -0600
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
Cc: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, dmorrisn <dmorrisn@u.washington.edu>,
        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>,
        "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 09:35 AM 10/3/98 -0400, James Love wrote:
 
>   It seems to me that Brett would like to kill Linux as 
>   a platform, perhaps because of the GPL, which he
>   appears to really hate.  

Jamie:

Untrue on both counts, and you do me a tremendous disservice by
saying so. I have never stated that I wish to "kill" Linux as a 
platform -- nor, in fact, do I wish to do so. However, I do believe 
that it is no more worthy than many other alternatives, and is 
inferior to at least one: FreeBSD. Linux seems, however, to have
achieved "fad" status, and this is dangerous because it may undermine
superior or potentially superior alternatives.

Also, I do believe that most users (as well as many developers) do
not understand the intended consequences of the GPL or the many
problems it can and will cause in the long term if it becomes the
dominant license for open source software. I don't "hate" it (and
think it is inappropriate for you to trivialize my objections to
it by attempting to claim that they are the result of an irrational
emotional response). However, I do see the GPL as intentionally
hostile to entrepreneurship and innovation, and hence very
destructive.

>   I think this is a mistake, and not particularly
>   contructive, but Brett has his reasons.

Again, I've stated the quite rational reasons for my objections to 
the GPL frequently. It disappoints me that you choose to disparage
me, and them, rather than listening.

>   At a point, hwoever, one has to question just about
>   anything Brett is saying about Linux, because he
>   seems (to me) to have have lost perspective.

Au contraire -- I see most of those who advocate the GPL as lacking
perspective. Most of them seem only to have in mind one short-term
goal: to damage Microsoft's business prospects. They do not look
far enough ahead and recognize the damage that the GPL will do
to potential competitors of Microsoft's, and to the development
of commericial software in general. 

Some advocates on the GPL, on the other hand, do NOT lack perspective
but rather have as a goal the destruction of ALL commercial software 
ventures. These people hope that OTHERS' lack of perspective will cause
them to unwittingly further this goal. Richard Stallman is among those
who fall into this latter camp.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:31:51 1998
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Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 10:43:01AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 09:18 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>  
> >Uh, no.  I'm taking this as a waste of my time (and of those poor
> >people who have to read this) and am reacting accordingly.  
> 
> This is, I'm afraid, a textbook definition of "denial."
> 
> >Yeah, that's right - you did flake out once before on this, now that I
> >think about it.  So why are you even raising the issue again? :-)
> 
> Jordan, again you are attacking the messenger. I doubt that Frank
> "flaked out" in any way, shape, or form. Why are you so eager to
> dismiss what he says instead of listening?
> 
> --Brett Glass

Thanks Brett.  You have it about right.  Perhaps I should have stated
that you question the status quo.  But that will get pounded to hell
anyway, so it doesn't matter.  I am also aware that we are not the only
people to do that, in my research I have run across a few that have
questioned it also, and got the same treatment.

BTW, Jordan, I have written to publications about FreeBSD.  Unix Review
come rather quickly to mind.  Once I was published, and the others
rejected.  In fact the latest issue has some letters about FreeSBD
written by others, but mine were rejected.  Now by your gauge, I sure that
is my fault.
   
	 --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:33:57 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:54:25 MDT."
             <4.1.19981003104553.04120400@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:20:57 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Well, then, where are the ads? Where are the value-added utilities?
> Where's the advocacy? Where are the press releases? Where are the
> announcements from Intel, Corel, Caldera, Novell, Oracle, Sybase,
> etc.?

1. There are adverts, just not necessarily in every trade journal
   you read.  Pick up a Dr. Dobbs sometime, for example.  There will
   also be more adverts as our new marketing director picks reasonable
   targets, but it is of course impossible to put adverts into every
   single possible publication since advertising budgets are not
   infinite and it's also pretty damn hard to determine just which adverts
   generate sales.  Since you have a finite amount of cash and there's
   no point in spending money on ads which DON'T generate sales, you have
   to move carefully and measure the results as closely as possible.
   WC has lost more than a small amount of money on ineffective print
   advertising and they're hardly alone in this - it's a big problem
   which those who actually make their money selling advertising space
   would rather not admit to.

2. We're working on Applixware right now, something which cost a very
   healthy 6 figures to license, and will move onto other applications
   as time and money permit.  Again, this is a bit like the advertising -
   we could spend millions of dollars licensing everything under the
   sun if we were stupid about it, but we don't have millions of dollars
   so won't have the chance to make that mistake anyway.

3. Press releases are a real sore point and hopefully the new marketing
   guy will help us get those out.  I've been looking for volunteers to
   do this for ages but they always flake when release time rolls around.

4. Your final point about Intel, Oracle, etc. is nothing but a straw man.
   Those sorts of people will show up when FreeBSD can demonstrably point to
   3-5 million users (3 million being Oracle's stated figure before they'll
   be even vaguely interested in FreeBSD) and not before.  Blaming Walnut
   Creek CDROM for not being appetizing enough is a bit like blaming them
   for the state of the Asian economy in general.  They may have a very small
   contributory effect, but they're hardly to blame for everything which
   happens on the Tokyo exchange.

   Similarly, Red Hat is a lousy point of comparison because Red Hat is
   also riding a much much bigger wave.  You might as well blame Walnut
   Creek CDROM for not being Microsoft, while you're at it, and for
   single-handedly losing the desktop to Windows.  Why think so small?

In any case, this is the last message I'm going to post in response to
your trolling.  I think we've long since passed the point of
diminishing returns with this whole, pathetic argument and I'm just
going to whap "delete" on future Brett Glass emails.  Call it being in
denial if you wish, but from my point of view it looks more like
simple, elementary noise control.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:37:26 1998
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:36:19 -0600
To: Marty Cawthon <mrc@ChipChat.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OS2.3.96.981003125443.82K-100000@MRC-Tiger.chipchat.c
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At 01:23 PM 10/3/98 -0400, Marty Cawthon wrote:
 
>  It is impertinent for any of us to preach to Walnut Creek
>"How to run their business", unless we are an investor
>or an officer or possibly an employee of that company.

Why not? All companies need feedback from customers.

>  Consider: In a world dominated by Microsoft with DOS/Windows, as it
>is now, how difficult is it to convince:
>  A) A vendor to write a commercial application for BSD?
>     Difficult: Win32 is much different than Unix.

I'd argue that the answer is:

Very difficult; if you're not writing ro Win32, you'll be targeting
Linux. FreeBSD emulates Linux, so it's not important either to
target FreeBSD or support the use of one's product on that platform.
Let the die-hard holdouts who use anything other than Linux support
themselves.

>  Consider those same questions in a world where, let's say 30% of
>computers use Linux, and maybe 5% run BSD.
>  A) Easy for vendors to build a BSD version, code is similar.

They won't, because FreeBSD claims to run Linux binaries.

>  B) Easy for Corporate IT people to try BSD: Similar to Linux

They can't get supported commercial software that's targeted
for BSD (see above).

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:39:05 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:29:06 MDT."
             <4.1.19981003112725.040e8860@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:27:30 -0700
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> Ah, but these people are sensitive to more than the issue of making a
> buck. They recognize that one of FreeBSD's strengths is that it's
> not a fragmented effort, and do not wish to hurt the product as much as
> they help it.

Yeah, right.  And I'm Gina Lola Brigita.  This whole paragraph shows
an appalling lack of understanding as to just what makes most
businessmen tick.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:44:34 1998
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To: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 12:31:19 CDT."
             <19981003123119.A2101@execpc.com> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:32:51 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> BTW, Jordan, I have written to publications about FreeBSD.  Unix Review
> come rather quickly to mind.  Once I was published, and the others
> rejected.  In fact the latest issue has some letters about FreeSBD
> written by others, but mine were rejected.  Now by your gauge, I sure that
> is my fault.

By my gauge, absolutely.  Sorry if I'm the one to impart the cruel
truth, but if your stuff isn't getting accepted then you clearly need
to polish your style and approach until it is - it really is just that
simple.  I also don't mean to compare dick sizes here, but I've had no
trouble getting _any_ of my articles accepted and I know several other
people who have enjoyed similar degrees of success.  Ultimately, even
though Brett would now have us believe that I'm directly responsible
for your successes or lack thereof, it's down to you and only you
whether you succeed or fail at any form of advocacy.  I can say that
of those I've known who were both persistent and reasonably
intelligent (enough to express themselves in print, I mean), their
success rate at getting stuff accepted for publication has been more
than exemplary.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:52:05 1998
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:51:04 -0600
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: Nicholas Charles Brawn <ncb05@uow.edu.au>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 10:27 AM 10/3/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>> Ah, but these people are sensitive to more than the issue of making a
>> buck. They recognize that one of FreeBSD's strengths is that it's
>> not a fragmented effort, and do not wish to hurt the product as much as
>> they help it.
>
>Yeah, right.  And I'm Gina Lola Brigita.  This whole paragraph shows
>an appalling lack of understanding as to just what makes most
>businessmen tick.

And shows that the businesspeople who might take FreeBSD under their wing
are more enlightened than most.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:57:05 1998
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        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:54:18 MDT."             <4.1.19981002214258.04211690@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981003103041.042f3460@mail.lariat.org>
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> >Ah.  I see, the old "everyone who doesn't agree with me is crazy, and
> >I don't need to listen to crazy people" argument.
> 
> Not so. However, I refuse to be "trolled" by those who say "you haven't
> given any facts," conveniently ignoring that I have.

You continue to ignore the flaws in your argument and push forward.
My statement that you haven't offered any facts to substantiate your
original argument stands on its own. You've failed to disprove it and
will continue to fail in doing so.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 10:59:18 1998
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        James Love <love@cptech.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <Your message of "Fri, 02 Oct 1998 20:48:17 MDT."             <4.1.19981002204214.0420a940@mail.lariat.org>
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> >Or those who refuse to present any arguments other than those that are
> >not provable.
> 
> This is an old, hackneyed "trolling" tactic: Claim that a point has not
> been "proven" and then refuse to accept any proof in a hope that the
> other side will simply leave in disgust.
> 
> Sorry; won't work.

The only tactic present is your moving the focus onto discrediting me
rather than my argument.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 11:01:58 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: CyberPsychotic <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>,
        Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>,
        Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>,
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Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:00:59 MDT."
             <4.1.19981003105957.0420ea30@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:48:09 -0700
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> I was debating asking for some of the 2.2.6 giveaway CDs, but opted
> not to do so. Why? Because that release had some security problems
> that could actually sour some folks on FreeBSD. We were rooted as
> a result of one of them.

Oh god, I was going to jump out of this silly thread now but that
idiotic statement above just can't be allowed to stand unchallenged.

As has already been widely discussed in this very mailing list, Brett
was rooted due to his own incompetence and not some bug in "FreeBSD",
the bug in question not even being a part of the core distribution but
in an external package called popper.  For what it's worth, just about
every other OS using this version of popper (which was basically
everybody) was equally vulnerable and to specifically blame FreeBSD
for this is as unfair as it is inaccurate.  Brett's own incompetence
ain this affair is incontravertable since it subsequently transpired
that he left NO admin in charge during his absence (which for any box
left 24/7 on the internet is just begging for trouble) nor did he
bother to check BUGTRAK or rootshell.com or any of the other
well-known sites for exploits when he came back.  He was, in effect,
rooted by a bug that just about everyone and his dog had closed some
2-3 weeks previously and then had the gall to come onto these mailing
lists and flame everyone and anyone to toast for allowing him to walk
into an open manhole.  I think we spent about 2 weeks on that flame
fest and then, as now, the final verdict seemed to be that Brett was
purely of a jerk for blaming everyone else for his administrative
shortcomings.  We certainly didn't get anywhere near the same amount
of grief from anyone *else* about the popper bug and most admins
seemed to understand that it was part of their responsibility as
admins to keep an eye on things or appoint someone else to do it while
on vacation.  Failure to do that only leaves you open to whatever
root-du-jour happens to be going around and, though we certainly have
far less such incidents than many of our sister OSes, is still very
much a part of an admin's responsibility to keep up on what's
happening.

Brett, through inaction and poor advance planning, failed to do so and
lost a foot as a consequence.  I ordinarily would also cut anyone a
fair bit of slack over such failings since we're all human and such,
but Brett then compounded his error by wasting everyone's time for the
next couple of weeks with pointless argument about how FreeBSD should
have somehow Not Been Vulnerable to any form of security bug and we
should also stop writing in C right away because it was a poor
language from a security POV.  Excuse me?  That's considered
productive debate and not just "being in denial" about one's own
shortcomings as an administrator?  I don't think so.  Brett may be
right about some things, but in so many others it's like his head was
screwed on against the thread or something.  We just cannot figure
this guy out!

- Jordan

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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 10:32 AM 10/3/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>> BTW, Jordan, I have written to publications about FreeBSD.  Unix Review
>> come rather quickly to mind.  Once I was published, and the others
>> rejected.  In fact the latest issue has some letters about FreeSBD
>> written by others, but mine were rejected.  Now by your gauge, I sure that
>> is my fault.
>
>By my gauge, absolutely.  Sorry if I'm the one to impart the cruel
>truth, but if your stuff isn't getting accepted then you clearly need
>to polish your style and approach until it is - it really is just that
>simple.

Wrong. His letters were most likely rejected because editors do not
believe that FreeBSD even MATTERS. And that's due to a lack of serious
promotion that a few grass roots letters can't replace.

--Brett GlaSS


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 11:04:53 1998
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
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To add to this thread I just had someone send me this..

http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm

I am sorry if this has been posted or anything like that..

This above document makes me sick and makes me not ever want to run any
microsoft software... 

If anything things like this should be a clue to anyone that microsoft
stuff is bad...

As far as I am concerned anyone staying with the NT platform after reading
this needs to get beat with a clue-by-four..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  James D. Butt 'J.D.'
  Network Engineer                                   Voice 319-557-8463
  Network Operations Center                          Fax   319-557-9771
  MidWest Communications, Inc.                       Pager 319-557-6347
  241 Main St.                                          noc@mwci.net
  Dubuque, IA  52001                                   jbutt@mwci.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drive defensively.  Buy a tank.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 11:06:26 1998
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 12:01:01 MDT."
             <4.1.19981003115959.0410c140@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:54:47 -0700
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> Wrong. His letters were most likely rejected because editors do not
> believe that FreeBSD even MATTERS. And that's due to a lack of serious
> promotion that a few grass roots letters can't replace.

Bah, then I guess my own acceptance and outright solicitation by
various magazine editors is purely a fluke and it's really you who are
right in the face of direct evidence to the contrary.  So sorry to
have perturbed your world-view like this and it won't happen again.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 11:07:56 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:04:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lanny Baron <beef@cybertouch.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Andre Oppermann <oppermann@pipeline.ch>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>,
        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, James Love <love@cptech.org>,
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	I dont quite understand what all this fighting is about. But
Jordan, I only know you as the "boss man" of FreeBSD. There must be a lot
of die-hard FreeBSD fans out here. Would it not be better to just try to
organize, with some of those people, some ways we can help to promote
FreeBSD? Lets face it, when its installed, its a great system. 

	As far as marketing is concerned. Have you thought of using a
marketing company here in Canada? Your dollar =$1.50 can. The one thing I
do see at bookstores is a lot of books written for Linux. The only book
for FreeBSD that I know of is from Greg Lehey. And that book is not in any
book store I have been to. 

	Not to put down FreeBSD, but when I contacted both cannon for my
printer and real audio, they both said they have never heard of FreeBSD.
Some how you must get your good name in journals or what ever these execs
from large company's read.

	Damn I wish I could help out more. I want to see FreeBSD become
huge. 

Regards..
Lanny Baron


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 11:29:50 1998
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 12:28:37 -0600
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
Cc: CyberPsychotic <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>,
        Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>,
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At 10:48 AM 10/3/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>> I was debating asking for some of the 2.2.6 giveaway CDs, but opted
>> not to do so. Why? Because that release had some security problems
>> that could actually sour some folks on FreeBSD. We were rooted as
>> a result of one of them.
>
>Oh god, I was going to jump out of this silly thread now but that
>idiotic statement above just can't be allowed to stand unchallenged.

The statement above isn't "idiotic;" it's true.

The Web page

http://www.freebsd.org/releases/2.2.6R/errata.html

states that there are not one but four CERT security advisories 
in effect for FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE.

>As has already been widely discussed in this very mailing list, Brett
>was rooted due to his own incompetence and not some bug in "FreeBSD",

Not so. The security hole was in a program that's included in the FreeBSD 
distribution. Other programs in that distribution may also be subject
to attacks which are now common knowledge and for which automated
"skripts" are available.

As for the matter of my "competence:" again, Jordan, you're making
an unwarranted attack in response to a legitimate concern. 

>the bug in question not even being a part of the core distribution but
>in an external package called popper.  For what it's worth, just about
>every other OS using this version of popper (which was basically
>everybody) was equally vulnerable and to specifically blame FreeBSD
>for this is as unfair as it is inaccurate.

I did not "blame" FreeBSD per se. However, I did point out 
that the software with the security hole is part of that distribution.
Yes, it is also part of other operating system distributions, including
quite a few of Linux. I would not distribute those, either.

>Brett's own incompetence
>ain this affair is incontravertable since it subsequently transpired
>that he left NO admin in charge during his absence (which for any box
>left 24/7 on the internet is just begging for trouble) 

Incorrect. An administrator was left in charge. And we, in fact, did
better than most; quite a few major ISPs had the hole open for far 
longer. (The largest ISP in our region, in fact, didn't fix it until
TWO MONTHS later, when WE notified THEM that they were running a
version that was subject to the exploit.) We, on the other hand, 
instantly recognized the nature of the attack and responded 
appropriately.

But, again, this is a peripheral issue. It is, fundamentally, a bad
idea to give a new user a disk with a product that incorporates programs
with such serious securty problems. I would consider it to be unethical,
myself.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 11:35:19 1998
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From: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <4.1.19981002215535.040ed100@mail.lariat.org> <199810030420.OAA19288@cimlogic.com.au> <4.1.19981003103704.040e5200@mail.lariat.org>
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On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 10:38:14AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 02:20 PM 10/3/98 +1000, John Birrell wrote:
>  
> >Maybe you'd be better off looking at other FreeBSD distributions like
> >http://www.cybernet.com/ (NetMAX), for example, 
> 
> >From what I can see, NetMAX could be a worthy alternative but is priced
> quite high. It's tough to tell whether it would make it at a $500
> price point.
> 
> --Brett

You are probably right, as that is about the price point for BSDI,
however BSDI includes some other goodies along with the OS.  Am not sure
about NETMAX, need to get spun up on it.  Have heard anything about BSDI
being in trouble?  I have heard some rumblings to that effect.  Ron has
left the organisation, don't know if Bostic and Karels are still there.
-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 11:36:10 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:33:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lanny Baron <beef@cybertouch.org>
To: Marty Cawthon <mrc@ChipChat.com>
cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
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   I agree with marty with respect to the devil logo. If you head honchos
work with that and exploit it as much as you can....it will greatly add to
your marketing.

	It was that logo that got me to buy my first FreeBSD cdrom. 

lanny


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 12:02:32 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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> Now, just for a little contrast, let's go to Japan and look at their
> mainstream press.  Whooee!  Articles about FreeBSD almost every month!
> 20 different books on the bookshelves, covering everything from "How
> to be an ISP with FreeBSD" to "FreeBSD kernel internals."  Regular
> columns on FreeBSD in several of their Unix magazines.  And you know
> what?  In Japan, FreeBSD and Linux are neck-and-neck in terms of
> users.  It's not the more usual "Linux kicks FreeBSD's butt" scenario
> there at all, and that's certainly not because Walnut Creek CDROM (or
> even Pacific HiTech) are doing amazingly good promotion in Japan.  PHT
> is doing some promotion, yes, and for that they should be thanked, but
> it's really the user base in Japan which is making ALL the difference
> in terms of garnering market share.
> 
> So, in a nutshell, Brett is completely wrong about this.  It's not WC
> holding FreeBSD's progress back, it's apathy on the part of those who
> could be achieving everything that the Japanese FreeBSD users are
> achieving if they put the same amount of energy into writing all that
> stuff.  I've been approached by literally every book and magazine
> publisher here in the U.S., each starving for books and articles on
> FreeBSD, and if I were into that (which I most emphatically am not) I
> could spend every waking hour of my life just writing articles and
> still not catch up with demand.  I have, at various times, grabbed the
> shirt of anyone I could think of in the FreeBSD community with even an
> ounce of writing ability and offered them everything from whisky to
> women if they would just PLEASE WRITE SOMETHING.
> 
> Do you hear me Frank?

Not so sure that you waving you finger in my face as you lecture me is
appreciated.  As far as your offer of whisky to women goes, it is
completely without foundation.  While I readily admit that technically I
am not up to speed to do a major article on FreeBSD, but in spite of that
I have a pretty good start on one.  However, I have asked for some
materials, which you committed to provide and then totally went against
your commitment.  So don't wave your finger at me!!  I may volunteer to do
some things, but grovel for help, never!!!!!

Here is another point for you to ponder and wave your finger at, I am a
user of FreeBSD and a subscriber to the releases.  Both of which can
easily be cancelled!!  Further, as a professional that has been promoting
open source software in the commercial arena for about two years, my
attitude toward FreeBSD could well change.  Easy enough to stop
mentioning FreeBSD along with the other things that I recommend.  Wave on
Jordan!!!  Maybe you should hear me O High Priest!!!!
-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 12:10:23 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:09:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu
Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981003105957.0420ea30@mail.lariat.org>
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On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Brett Glass wrote:

>I was debating asking for some of the 2.2.6 giveaway CDs, but opted
>not to do so. Why? Because that release had some security problems
>that could actually sour some folks on FreeBSD. We were rooted as
>a result of one of them.

Software had security problems? Go figure. That is like saying you
shouldn't distribute software because it has bugs.

Tell me what operating system exists that can't get rooted. Hell, even MS
claims to be secure. (C2 was it?) Every damn system that is running
sendmail is a target. Moreover, every system is a target.

No one is going to be soured on FreeBSD because of bugs, security, or a
general lack of quality.

Risk assessment is the keyword. There is no such animal as _no_ risk.
FreeBSD is very low risk.

Catchya Later,		|	UW Mechanical Engineering
Jason Wells		|	http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 12:12:40 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:12:20 -0500
From: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <Your <4.1.19981003104109.040e26d0@mail.lariat.org> <13575.907434428@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981003112623.042f3990@mail.lariat.org>
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On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 11:27:13AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 10:07 AM 10/3/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>  
> >I "attack" Frank for making a lot of suggestions but showing an
> >alarming lack of follow-through.
> 
> Frank is not the appropriate person to follow through on marketing.
> A for-profit vendor of FreeBSD CD-ROMs is.
> 
> --Brett

Hear! Hear! And thanks Bret.  Got my ass kicked over this one too.
-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 12:25:52 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:25:33 -0500
From: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
To: "James D. Butt" <jbutt@mwci.net>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <4.1.19981003115018.041ce6a0@mail.lariat.org> <Pine.BSF.3.96.981003130127.17984D-100000@firewall.mwci.net>
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On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 01:04:36PM -0500, James D. Butt wrote:
> 
> To add to this thread I just had someone send me this..
> 
> http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm
 
I hit the URL and got nothing.  Are you sure that it is correct?   Would
be interested in reading tha artticle.

-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 12:33:07 1998
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 13:31:15 -0600
To: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 12:09 PM 10/3/98 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote:
 
>No one is going to be soured on FreeBSD because of bugs, security, or a
>general lack of quality.

It is true that all software has bugs and security holes. However, installing
stuff with known security holes which can be exploited by unknowedgeable
trespassers is a bad idea! For example, there are folks out there just
scanning 
for old versions of QPopper so that they can pounce on systems as soon as they
find them. 

I don't want to expose folks to that.

Yes, there may be bugs in the newer stuff as well. But why start someone off
in the dangerous position of having well-known, easily exploited holes in
their systems from Day One?

--Brett

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 12:36:45 1998
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cc: "James D. Butt" <jbutt@mwci.net>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 14:25:33 CDT."
             <19981003142533.B2496@execpc.com> 
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> On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 01:04:36PM -0500, James D. Butt wrote:
> > 
> > To add to this thread I just had someone send me this..
> > 
> > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm
>  
> I hit the URL and got nothing.  Are you sure that it is correct?   Would
> be interested in reading tha artticle.

It's correct; the article describes a fairly boring load balancing 
scheme.  Try http://www.coyotepoint.com/ for an alternative.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 12:51:50 1998
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Message-Id: <199810031951.PAA24027@shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:50:59 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: ncb05@uow.edu.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981003105717.041c3760@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Oct 3, 98 10:58:39 am
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Wait a minute. Let's get one thing straight.  Walnut Creek's done
a very good job with FreeBSD... FreeBSD isn't Walnut Creek's business.
Selling CDROMS (Ada, Slackware, FreeBSD) is.

They've done a very creditable job and more than most companies.
I doubt Info-Magic's done as much for Linux.  (They are also a good
CDROM house and I have also had dealings with them.)

RED HAT is a software company and there's no equivalent for FreeBSD.
Trying to say it is like trying to say Walnut Creek is BSDI.

It's just a foolish analogy.  If Walnut Creek is changing its focus
it's a very different business.

I don't think the apples and oranges comparisons have any value.

I'd love to see some venture money feeding a "FreeBSD Co." (not 
necessarily FreeBSD Inc, Jordan) to get us on a more even footing.

I'm not worried about Debian, Slackware, or Caldera -- but Red Hat
scares me.  They've become the Microsoft of Linux in my opinion.
Read Linux Journal and count the ads and references to the 
different distributions.

Bill



> 
> At 04:13 PM 10/3/98 +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote:
>  
> >A lot of criticism has been directed towards Walnut
> >Creek, and many people have said "if you want a more commercial freebsd
> >distribution, go out there and do it". This is where the discussion
> >typically ends. There are many out there willing to point out flaws with
> >the way Walnut Creek is handling distribution and whatnot of FreeBSD,
> >but very few are willing to translate that into action and do something
> >about it.
> 
> Unfortunately, the only way to do this is to cut into Walnut Creek's
> sales, in effect hurting its current efforts. I suspect that the reason
> there have not been alternative distributions (other than a token effort
> by Cheap Bytes) is that people do not want to do this.
> 
> --Brett Glass
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
> 


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| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com        |
|   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in  |
|  a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller                         | 
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 13:15:07 1998
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Message-Id: <199810032014.QAA03712@shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Congrats on the FreeBSD coverage in ;login:
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:14:03 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <13547.907434140@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 3, 98 10:02:20 am
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Congrats to all the FreeBSD'ers who managed to get such great coverage in
;login.  Just got the Oct. 1998 issue and I love it.

Coverage included the the "Source Code Unix on the PC" article on 
the FreeBSD ports system, an op-Ed piece by Jordan Hubbard
(who will chair the FREENIX track in '99)...

Additional mentions were made of Poul-Henning Kamp's papers about
timecounters and NTP, Luigi Rizzo's work with Dummynet and Forward Error
Correction (and his FreeBSD palmtop--which, according to ;login:
left him with the one major audience question -- "Where can I get 
one of those?"

Branson Matheson's work on FreeBSD console servers got a nice write up.

Peter Salus mentioned the *BSD's nicely in his Free Stuff article.

I learned two things from the issue.

1.  Walnut Creek could probably sell a ton of FreeBSD palmtops 8-)
2.  I've got to find a way to get to LISA in Boston this year.

Bill

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 13:37:05 1998
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Message-Id: <199810032036.QAA13510@shell.monmouth.com>
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:36:15 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981003103704.040e5200@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Oct 3, 98 10:38:14 am
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> 
> At 02:20 PM 10/3/98 +1000, John Birrell wrote:
>  
> >Maybe you'd be better off looking at other FreeBSD distributions like
> >http://www.cybernet.com/ (NetMAX), for example, 
> 
> >From what I can see, NetMAX could be a worthy alternative but is priced
> quite high. It's tough to tell whether it would make it at a $500
> price point.
> 
> --Brett

If they do decent support and Netware access they'd have a shot.

If it's just IP and Appletalk there's plenty of freeware from
FreeBSD/Linux/NetBSD/OpenBSD that'd work.

The trick is having the code to allow it to work in the Netware 4 
or Netware 3 environment.  These guys are looking for platforms
that might have more of a lifespan than Netware 3 or 4 and they're 
unsure about going to Netware 5.  Most are now trying NT.  There's
a lot of Oracle on netware out there that's looking for a home on either
NT or Unix.

The same holds true with OS/2 Server... A lot of them run Notes and apps
like Oracle or DB/2.  For file services just about anything will work
with them.


Bill

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| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com        |
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|  a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller                         | 
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 13:39:34 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:39:11 -0500
From: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
References: <Your <4.1.19981002215535.040ed100@mail.lariat.org> <11312.907387544@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981003103826.04109150@mail.lariat.org>
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On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 10:39:32AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 09:05 PM 10/2/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
  
I just wish to say one more thing and then I am off this topic
permanently.  Most people here are really down on Brett, and he has been
racked pretty hard for stating his opinions.  Whether you agree with him
or not, and I happen to on many of the issues he has raised, he doesn't
deserve the treatment which he has received.

A quick check of the public forums will reveal that he always has
been a staunch supporter of both the Berkeley License and FreeBSD, and he
has argued his case by and large with very little support from members
of these lists.  Yet let him raise some questions, on these lists and all
is forgotten in the rush to rain fire and brimstone upon him.  I for one
think that the guy deserves better.  But then again we seem to be peas
in pod on this.

Now I have to go learn to write some C code.
-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 13:44:29 1998
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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:43:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: "James D. Butt" <jbutt@mwci.net>
To: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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> > 
> > To add to this thread I just had someone send me this..
> > 
> > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm
>  
> I hit the URL and got nothing.  Are you sure that it is correct?   Would
> be interested in reading tha artticle.

Yes it works I even tried it from my other computer that is not using our
proxy..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  James D. Butt 'J.D.'
  Network Engineer                                   Voice 319-557-8463	
  Network Operations Center                          Fax   319-557-9771
  MidWest Communications, Inc.                       Pager 319-557-6347
  241 Main St.                                          noc@mwci.net	
  Dubuque, IA  52001                                   jbutt@mwci.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drive defensively.  Buy a tank.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 13:50:44 1998
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From: "James D. Butt" <jbutt@mwci.net>
Reply-To: "James D. Butt" <jbutt@mwci.net>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
cc: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement 
In-Reply-To: <199810031940.MAA07325@word.smith.net.au>
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> > > 
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm
> >  
> > I hit the URL and got nothing.  Are you sure that it is correct?   Would
> > be interested in reading tha artticle.
> 
> It's correct; the article describes a fairly boring load balancing 
> scheme.  Try http://www.coyotepoint.com/ for an alternative.

I think that you missed the point that I am not sure I made..

They were talking about crashes and downtime.. Under a controlled
enviroment they are not able to keep their own servers running..

I have no problem doing as much up time as I want we have had BSD based
boxes with well over a year of uptime.

This is the OS developer they should be able to make their servers not
crash if they expect customers to do it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  James D. Butt 'J.D.'
  Network Engineer                                   Voice 319-557-8463	
  Network Operations Center                          Fax   319-557-9771
  MidWest Communications, Inc.                       Pager 319-557-6347
  241 Main St.                                          noc@mwci.net	
  Dubuque, IA  52001                                   jbutt@mwci.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drive defensively.  Buy a tank.



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 14:03:33 1998
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Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement
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On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 03:43:56PM -0500, James D. Butt wrote:
> > > 
> > > To add to this thread I just had someone send me this..
> > > 
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm
> >  
> > I hit the URL and got nothing.  Are you sure that it is correct?   Would
> > be interested in reading tha artticle.
> 

I got it this time.

> Yes it works I even tried it from my other computer that is not using our
> proxy..
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   James D. Butt 'J.D.'
>   Network Engineer                                   Voice 319-557-8463	
>   Network Operations Center                          Fax   319-557-9771
>   MidWest Communications, Inc.                       Pager 319-557-6347
>   241 Main St.                                          noc@mwci.net	
>   Dubuque, IA  52001                                   jbutt@mwci.net
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Drive defensively.  Buy a tank.

-- 
    --Frank

"At no time is the freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits
his thumb with a hammer."
   --Marshall Lumsden

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 15:18:46 1998
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On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, James D. Butt wrote:

> This is the OS developer they should be able to make their servers not
> crash if they expect customers to do it.

J.D. you're obviously not a man with the M$ mind set. :)  This is
the `re' company we're talking about.  Reboot.  Reinstall.

Surely you've taught most of your Win* dialup customers to reboot
before calling you for tech support when things don't work.  Why
just the other day a customer was kind enough to call and scream
at us insisting that our web and ftp servers were down.  Our tech
support dude finally talked him into rebooting and, being the
strong juju W95 is, lo an behold it fixed our servers.  :)

Reinstall is one of M$'s stock answers on their alleged support
lines.

No, the developers can't keep their servers running in a
controlled, or any other, environment.  An OS based on bubble gum
and duct tape never will be stable.  The best they can do is to
sell you a dozen licenses to use on twelve different boxes and
then come up with a bandaid that will figure out which one or two
of them are up at any given moment.  The spin doctors then go out
touting the wonders of the bandaid and those lemmings looking at
the world through M$ colored glasses (i.e. everything constantly
falling over) see this magical bandaid as their salvation.  They
never realize that they wouldn't need to buy the cure if they
hadn't bought the disease in the first place.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack O'Neill                    Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst
jack@germanium.xtalwind.net     Crystal Wind Communications, Inc.
          Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key.
   PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67   FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD
               enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 15:46:07 1998
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Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
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	Uhm.. not the release AFAIK but 3rd party utilites. FreeBSD does
now ship with imap/pop server by default if that is what you are referring
to.

-- Yan

I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum 
But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. 
So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb
Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org

On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Brett Glass wrote:

>I was debating asking for some of the 2.2.6 giveaway CDs, but opted
>not to do so. Why? Because that release had some security problems
>that could actually sour some folks on FreeBSD. We were rooted as
>a result of one of them.
>
>--Brett
>
>At 02:30 PM 10/3/98 +0500, CyberPsychotic wrote:
> 
>>
>>Folks,
>> Maybe I've missed something, but is there some kind of Giveaway CD thing
>>with BSD? (according to the subject). I guess it would be cool, since we
>>have lots of BSD hangry students around, who would want to "try it on".
>>So they would probably like trying some old BSD thing..
>>
>>
>>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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>


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 15:53:15 1998
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Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
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On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jan B. Koum  wrote:

> 
> 	Uhm.. not the release AFAIK but 3rd party utilites. FreeBSD does
> now ship with imap/pop server by default if that is what you are referring
> to.

Which is 100% TRUE! When brett installed FreeBSD and booted it up it did
NOT load popper. Popper is not part of the bin distribution or ANY other
part of FreeBSD. It is a 3rd part program not developed by FreeBSD, under
control of FreeBSD, or installed By FreeBSD. It is a 3rd party app
installed BY THE USER. The user even has to install either /ports just to
even HAVE the ability to install popper OR install the package. Either way
its the USERS doing not FreeBSD's.

Chris

--
"You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is
driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't
tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters

===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
  FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now!  | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
   FreeBSD: The power to serve!    | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
      http://www.freebsd.org       | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security
===================================| http://open-systems.net 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 16:01:47 1998
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WipeOut - Integrated Development Environment
http://www.softwarebuero.de/products.html#WIPEOUT

WipeOut is the Integrated Software Development Environment for
Linux and other Unix systems. It supports C, C++, Java(tm), Eiffel
and Fortran. WipeOut consists of several components, which are in
part front ends for existing tools like CVS, GDB, MAKE, several
compilers and the JDK. Together the components are a complete
programming environment, which supports you and your team writing,
managing, analizing and testing the source code of your projects.
WipeOut is extensible and available for several UNIX platforms.
The Standard Edition ist free for non-commercial use.


They have evaluation binaries for FreeBSD.

-- 
-- David    (obrien@NUXI.com  -or-  obrien@FreeBSD.org)

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 16:15:29 1998
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	The point of the article is between the lines. They went to round
robin because NT boxes kept on crashing :P

-- Yan

I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum 
But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. 
So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb
Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org

On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote:

>> On Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 01:04:36PM -0500, James D. Butt wrote:
>> > 
>> > To add to this thread I just had someone send me this..
>> > 
>> > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm
>>  
>> I hit the URL and got nothing.  Are you sure that it is correct?   Would
>> be interested in reading tha artticle.
>
>It's correct; the article describes a fairly boring load balancing 
>scheme.  Try http://www.coyotepoint.com/ for an alternative.
>
>-- 
>\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
>\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
>\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
>\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 17:04:43 1998
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
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At 06:52 PM 10/3/98 -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote:
 
>When brett installed FreeBSD and booted it up it did
>NOT load popper. Popper is not part of the bin distribution or ANY other
>part of FreeBSD. 

No, but it put QPopper on a convenient menu that made it trivial to pick
WITHOUT KNOWING WHETHER IT WAS PART OF FREEBSD OR NOT.

If one is going to distribute a disk like that, at the very least one should
put a warning sticker on it saying something like the following:

  "Version 2.2.6 is not the latest release of FreeBSD, and some significant
   security problems have been found both in FreeBSD itself and in some
   third-party programs on this CD. A list of these problems can be found
   at http://xxx.yyy.zzz/foo.html. You can upgrade from this version to the
   latest versions of FreeBSD and third party utilities by... [insert
   relevant instructions here]."

After all, we can't expect the new user to know what he or she is doing, nor
to have strong system administration skills.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 17:06:44 1998
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To: obrien@NUXI.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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Looks good! Unfortunately, it appears that the version number of
the FreeBSD version is behind that of the Linux x86 version.
I wonder why?

--Brett

At 04:00 PM 10/3/98 -0700, David O'Brien wrote:
 
>WipeOut - Integrated Development Environment
>http://www.softwarebuero.de/products.html#WIPEOUT
>
>WipeOut is the Integrated Software Development Environment for
>Linux and other Unix systems. It supports C, C++, Java(tm), Eiffel
>and Fortran. WipeOut consists of several components, which are in
>part front ends for existing tools like CVS, GDB, MAKE, several
>compilers and the JDK. Together the components are a complete
>programming environment, which supports you and your team writing,
>managing, analizing and testing the source code of your projects.
>WipeOut is extensible and available for several UNIX platforms.
>The Standard Edition ist free for non-commercial use.
>
>
>They have evaluation binaries for FreeBSD.
>
>-- 
>-- David    (obrien@NUXI.com  -or-  obrien@FreeBSD.org)
>
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 17:13:28 1998
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On Saturday,  3 October 1998 at 11:05:25 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 04:19 AM 10/3/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
>> Erm, this is something of a conflicting statement.  How could "pissing
>> on the flag", as you put it, fail to do anything other than raise
>> people's blood pressure?
>
> With all due respect for Frank, I don't believe that I was "pissing
> on the flag" by pointing out that the situation is worrisome.

Well, you've seen the responses to my question, in particular Jamie
Love's, which should count a lot more than any of us on the forum.
Brett, please tone it down a bit.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 17:20:16 1998
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At 09:42 AM 10/4/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
 
>Well, you've seen the responses to my question, in particular Jamie
>Love's, which should count a lot more than any of us on the forum.
>Brett, please tone it down a bit.

Greg:

Have you seen Jamie's other remarks? Unfortunately, he is enamored
of the GPL, and says that I "hate" it merely because I have the
temerity to raise objections to it.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 17:24:47 1998
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On Saturday,  3 October 1998 at 14:04:45 -0400, Lanny Baron wrote:
> 	I dont quite understand what all this fighting is about. But
> Jordan, I only know you as the "boss man" of FreeBSD. There must be a lot
> of die-hard FreeBSD fans out here. Would it not be better to just try to
> organize, with some of those people, some ways we can help to promote
> FreeBSD? Lets face it, when its installed, its a great system.

That's basically what -advocacy is about.  What we were (originally)
discussing here was one aspect of how to do this most effectively.

> 	Not to put down FreeBSD, but when I contacted both cannon for my
> printer and real audio, they both said they have never heard of FreeBSD.
> Some how you must get your good name in journals or what ever these execs
> from large company's read.

Sure, we're not very evident.  But running around and beating your
chest doesn't help there.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 17:49:55 1998
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On Saturday,  3 October 1998 at 18:19:10 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 09:42 AM 10/4/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>> Well, you've seen the responses to my question, in particular Jamie
>> Love's, which should count a lot more than any of us on the forum.
>> Brett, please tone it down a bit.
>
> Greg:
>
> Have you seen Jamie's other remarks?

Yes.

> Unfortunately, he is enamored of the GPL,

I don't see anything that suggests that.  And certainly, compared to
commercial licenses, he has a point.  What would be unfortunate about
that?

> and says that I "hate" it merely because I have the temerity to
> raise objections to it.

I think that he, like I, is more concerned by the manner in which you
do it.

The GPL isn't our enemy, any more than Linux is.  They do things
slightly differently, but they're still basically free software.  I
don't think we'll get anywhere useful by discussing the relative
merits of free software licenses.

And yes, Jordan is right.  The signal-to-noise ratio is approaching 0.
This is probably my last message on the subject.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 18:00:42 1998
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At 10:19 AM 10/4/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:

>The GPL isn't our enemy, any more than Linux is.  They do things
>slightly differently, but they're still basically free software.  

Nope, not so.... And that's the problem. It's "free" only to end
users, not to fellow developers.

--Brett

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 18:32:53 1998
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On Saturday,  3 October 1998 at 12:28:37 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 10:48 AM 10/3/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
>>> I was debating asking for some of the 2.2.6 giveaway CDs, but opted
>>> not to do so. Why? Because that release had some security problems
>>> that could actually sour some folks on FreeBSD. We were rooted as
>>> a result of one of them.
>>
>> Oh god, I was going to jump out of this silly thread now but that
>> idiotic statement above just can't be allowed to stand unchallenged.
>
> The statement above isn't "idiotic;" it's true.

You know something, Brett?  I don't think I've ever seen you admit
that you've made a mistake.  You get something in your head, and
there's no way of moving it.

Two months ago, I wrote to you:

> On Friday, 21 August 1998 at  9:43:01 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
>> At 12:27 PM 8/21/98 +0000, Duncan Barclay wrote:
>>
>>> In CNets headline story today, FreeBSD replaces comproimised IRIX
>>> servers at a Kentucky ISP!
>>>
>>>	Whether the attack was the fault of the ISP's operating system
>>>	remains an unanswered question. But Aye Net is not taking any
>>>	chances. It has since replaced its operating system with FreeBSD,
>>>	which is a version of Unix with strengthened security measures.
>>>
>>> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25526,00.html?st.ne.1.head
>>
>> For Heaven's sake someone warn them not to run QPopper.
>
> Why?  Firstly, it wasn't a FreeBSD problem, and secondly it's been
> fixed.

That stands.

Now please let us get back to our scheduled mangling the 3.0 Beta.

Greg
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Subject: Re: More commerial support for FreeBSD - programming IDE 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 16:00:51 PDT."
             <19981003160051.A23409@nuxi.com> 
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:13:46 -0700
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> WipeOut - Integrated Development Environment
> http://www.softwarebuero.de/products.html#WIPEOUT
> 
> WipeOut is the Integrated Software Development Environment for
> Linux and other Unix systems. It supports C, C++, Java(tm), Eiffel
> and Fortran. WipeOut consists of several components, which are in
> part front ends for existing tools like CVS, GDB, MAKE, several
> compilers and the JDK. Together the components are a complete
> programming environment, which supports you and your team writing,
> managing, analizing and testing the source code of your projects.
> WipeOut is extensible and available for several UNIX platforms.
> The Standard Edition ist free for non-commercial use.
> 
> 
> They have evaluation binaries for FreeBSD.

Hmm, I wonder if they tested them?  You need to create another symbolic 
link (they have an 'a' on the end of one of the shared library names).

I don't like the editor (far too stupid for my tastes), but this looks 
pretty neat.

Another nice environment (less integrated) is Visual SlickEdit, which 
runs under Linux emulation.  (http://www.slickedit.com).  You need to 
brand the binaries because everything is static, although I have 
suggested to them that branding the binaries out of the box would be a 
good idea (installation is difficult without this).  They weren't 
entirely opposed to the idea.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 19:43:13 1998
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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 20:41:46 -0600
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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 <Your <4.1.19981003105957.0420ea30@mail.lariat.org>
 <13859.907436889@time.cdrom.com>
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At 11:02 AM 10/4/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:

>> On Friday, 21 August 1998 at  9:43:01 -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
>>> At 12:27 PM 8/21/98 +0000, Duncan Barclay wrote:
>>>
>>>> In CNets headline story today, FreeBSD replaces comproimised IRIX
>>>> servers at a Kentucky ISP!
>>>>
>>>>	Whether the attack was the fault of the ISP's operating system
>>>>	remains an unanswered question. But Aye Net is not taking any
>>>>	chances. It has since replaced its operating system with FreeBSD,
>>>>	which is a version of Unix with strengthened security measures.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25526,00.html?st.ne.1.head
>>>
>>> For Heaven's sake someone warn them not to run QPopper.
>>
>> Why?  Firstly, it wasn't a FreeBSD problem, and secondly it's been
>> fixed.
>
>That stands.

But it WOULDN'T be fixed on the 2.2.6 CD set! And if someone is just
getting into FreeBSD or UNIX, the last thing they're going to know
is how to find out about security problems or how to upgrade.

Again, I'd prepare a sticker for the disk, a program to patch
the known holes, and/or instructions for an immediate, painless
upgrade.

I'd never, NEVER give someone a system disk with well-known, easily
exploitable holes without such warnings and fixes. But that's just
me. Personally, I would feel responsible if the user got shafted,
and wouldn't want FreeBSD's reputation to suffer.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 19:58:49 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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Moved to -chat

On Sunday,  4 October 1998 at  2:33:39 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
>> If they can't spell development right (It's not "developement"), they have
>> larger problems.
>
> That's how I spell it, frequently.  Yes, I know it's not the
> American spelling, but I was corrupted by an unabridged OED at
> an early age...

Was that a corrupted unabridged OED?

Sure, the OED will give you lots of alternate spellings.  This one
appears to have died out in 1756.  I wish all spammers had been dead
that long.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 22:13:24 1998
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Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:32:06 +0500 (KGT)
From: CyberPsychotic <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>
To: Kevin Lam <kevla@studentmail.dis.unimelb.edu.au>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
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> 
> Why not roll your own? Grab the most current -RELEASE from the FTP site
> (even on a modem, you could concievably move 180MB in a night, I did that
> for a -SNAP), and warm up the CD-R.. and since this is FREEBSD after all,
> you could concievably pass around those CD-Rs you make without violation of
> copyright ;)


yeah. That's what I am busy  with nowdays.:))



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 22:27:11 1998
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Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:46:09 +0500 (KGT)
From: CyberPsychotic <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>,
        Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
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> 
> I was debating asking for some of the 2.2.6 giveaway CDs, but opted
> not to do so. Why? Because that release had some security problems
> that could actually sour some folks on FreeBSD. We were rooted as
> a result of one of them.
> 


 Well, when I installed 2.2.6, I upgraded to 2.2.7 right away over the
network. What were those security issues anyway? I checked bugtraq, but
didnt find much.. any other place, where I could have a look?



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct  3 22:40:52 1998
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To: CyberPsychotic <fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's 
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>,
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At 10:46 AM 10/4/98 +0500, CyberPsychotic wrote:
 
>> 
>> I was debating asking for some of the 2.2.6 giveaway CDs, but opted
>> not to do so. Why? Because that release had some security problems
>> that could actually sour some folks on FreeBSD. We were rooted as
>> a result of one of them.
>> 
>
>
> Well, when I installed 2.2.6, I upgraded to 2.2.7 right away over the
>network. 

That's the right thing to do! However, if you did that, you really didn't
have to install 2.2.6 first. You could have just started with the 2.2.7
floppy diskette, and it would have gone faster.

>What were those security issues anyway? I checked bugtraq, but
>didnt find much.. any other place, where I could have a look?

Bugtraq covered most of them. The freebsd-security list covered pretty
much all. CERT reported 4 as formal advisories.

--Brett


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