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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:57:42 GMT."
<199802282257.PAA08480@usr08.primenet.com>
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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 13:32:57 +0300
From: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> > First, why default/standard/generic getpages/putpages routines does not
> > have interface of VOP_GETPAGES/VOP_PUTPAGES vnode operations? It would be
> > easier for a filesystem to just add some entries to their operations
> > tables than also cut&paste implementation (even trivial) of these
> > operations from ffs.
>
> Look at /sys/ufs/ufs/ufs_readwrite.c:
>
> ==========================================================================
[...]
> int
> ffs_putpages(ap)
> struct vop_putpages_args *ap;
> {
> return vnode_pager_generic_putpages(ap->a_vp, ap->a_m, ap->a_count,
> ap->a_sync, ap->a_rtvals);
> }
> ==========================================================================
Yes, I seen it. It is too complex. I guess you will understand my C
better than my English. See a patch below.
> > Second, why don't put the operations to default_vnodeop_entries? It is
> > used exactly by local media filesystems. Stacking layers use bypass
> > routines instead (unionfs is an exception). So, filesystems even would
> > not notice this change, until they really want their own implementation
> > of getpages/putpages
> >
> > What is wrong in the above?
>
> Unionfs. Specifically, the point is that the unionfs implementation
> should fan out to the correct underlying implementation. This means
> it shouldn't go into the default.
But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case.
Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar
problems with future new vnode operations :-).
> Secondly, you can't make FS-specific optimizations.
Nothing prevent a filesystem to implement its own getpages/putpages and
override the default.
> > I can send a patch for you... It is indeed pretty easy...
>
> See above for the patch. It's the identification problem and the
> stacking problem that I wanted to handle on a case-by-case basis.
I don't see why default ops doesn't solve stacking problems.
> As I said, it's possible to make this change go transparent (#2,
> above); I would actually prefer an implementation that does *not*
> define the generic code as default ops, so if it has to go
> transparent, it should go transparent that way, not the default
> ops way, so at least there are warning messages emitted.
If you want list of all filesystems to fix them you can do 'ls /sys',
'ls /sys/gnu', and 'ls /sys/miscfs' and exclude some non-filesystem
directories. Also, if you really don't want the generic code be a
default ops, you can make it non-default ops and insert the ops to each
vnode table that require it.
> You should also follow the NFS case in vnode_pager_generic_getpages
> and look at all the other vp->v_mount references. Look what the
> change means to VOP_BMAP, specifically with regard to the assumptions
> comment in vnode_pager_generic_getpages and vnode_pager_input_smlfs's
> being called -- with the same assumptions but without the test. It's
> pretty obvious that the VOP_BMAP return test is equal to the NFS
> test. This code is at the heart of a lot of problems, and I'd like
> to take it slow...
TBH, I dont understand why the generic_getpages mention NFS at all. NFS
has its own getpages.
Dima
Here is my patch against -current as of yesterday.
--- vm/vnode_pager.c Sat Feb 28 16:45:49 1998
+++ vm/vnode_pager.c Sun Mar 1 13:05:11 1998
@@ -514,14 +514,6 @@ vnode_pager_input_old(object, m)
* generic vnode pager input routine
*/
-/*
- * EOPNOTSUPP is no longer legal. For local media VFS's that do not
- * implement their own VOP_GETPAGES, their VOP_GETPAGES should call to
- * vnode_pager_generic_getpages() to implement the previous behaviour.
- *
- * All other FS's should use the bypass to get to the local media
- * backing vp's VOP_GETPAGES.
- */
static int
vnode_pager_getpages(object, m, count, reqpage)
vm_object_t object;
@@ -529,46 +521,41 @@ vnode_pager_getpages(object, m, count, r
int count;
int reqpage;
{
- int rtval;
- struct vnode *vp;
-
- vp = object->handle;
- /*
- * XXX temporary diagnostic message to help track stale FS code,
- * Returning EOPNOTSUPP from here may make things unhappy.
- */
- rtval = VOP_GETPAGES(vp, m, count*PAGE_SIZE, reqpage, 0);
- if (rtval == EOPNOTSUPP)
- printf("vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system.\n");
- return rtval;
+ return (VOP_GETPAGES(object->handle, m, count*PAGE_SIZE, reqpage, 0));
}
/*
- * This is now called from local media FS's to operate against their
- * own vnodes if they fail to implement VOP_GETPAGES.
+ * This is the standard implementation of VOP_GETPAGES.
*/
int
-vnode_pager_generic_getpages(vp, m, bytecount, reqpage)
- struct vnode *vp;
- vm_page_t *m;
- int bytecount;
- int reqpage;
+vop_stdgetpages(ap)
+ struct vop_getpages_args /* {
+ struct vnode *a_vp;
+ vm_page_t *a_m;
+ int a_count;
+ int a_reqpage;
+ vm_ooffset_t a_offset;
+ }*/ *ap;
{
vm_object_t object;
vm_offset_t kva;
+ vm_page_t *m;
off_t foff;
int i, size, bsize, first, firstaddr;
- struct vnode *dp;
+ struct vnode *dp, *vp;
int runpg;
int runend;
struct buf *bp;
int s;
int count;
+ int reqpage = ap->a_reqpage;
int error = 0;
+ vp = ap->a_vp;
object = vp->v_object;
- count = bytecount / PAGE_SIZE;
+ count = ap->a_count / PAGE_SIZE;
+ m = ap->a_m;
if (vp->v_mount == NULL)
return VM_PAGER_BAD;
@@ -785,14 +772,6 @@ vnode_pager_generic_getpages(vp, m, byte
return (error ? VM_PAGER_ERROR : VM_PAGER_OK);
}
-/*
- * EOPNOTSUPP is no longer legal. For local media VFS's that do not
- * implement their own VOP_PUTPAGES, their VOP_PUTPAGES should call to
- * vnode_pager_generic_putpages() to implement the previous behaviour.
- *
- * All other FS's should use the bypass to get to the local media
- * backing vp's VOP_PUTPAGES.
- */
static int
vnode_pager_putpages(object, m, count, sync, rtvals)
vm_object_t object;
@@ -801,38 +780,44 @@ vnode_pager_putpages(object, m, count, s
boolean_t sync;
int *rtvals;
{
- int rtval;
- struct vnode *vp;
-
- vp = object->handle;
- return VOP_PUTPAGES(vp, m, count*PAGE_SIZE, sync, rtvals, 0);
+ return (VOP_PUTPAGES(object->handle, m, count*PAGE_SIZE, sync, rtvals, 0));
}
/*
- * This is now called from local media FS's to operate against their
- * own vnodes if they fail to implement VOP_GETPAGES.
+ * This is the standard implementation of VOP_PUTPAGES.
*/
int
-vnode_pager_generic_putpages(vp, m, bytecount, sync, rtvals)
- struct vnode *vp;
- vm_page_t *m;
- int bytecount;
- boolean_t sync;
- int *rtvals;
+vop_stdputpages(ap)
+ struct vop_putpages_args /* {
+ struct vnode *a_vp;
+ vm_page_t *a_m;
+ int a_count;
+ int a_sync;
+ int *a_rtvals;
+ vm_ooffset_t a_offset;
+ } */ *ap;
{
int i;
vm_object_t object;
+ struct vnode *vp;
int count;
int maxsize, ncount;
vm_ooffset_t poffset;
+ vm_page_t *m;
+ boolean_t sync;
struct uio auio;
struct iovec aiov;
+ int *rtvals;
int error;
- object = vp->v_object;
- count = bytecount / PAGE_SIZE;
+ vp = ap->a_vp;
+ object = ap->a_vp->v_object;
+ count = ap->a_count / PAGE_SIZE;
+ sync = ap->a_sync;
+ m = ap->a_m;
+ rtvals = ap->a_rtvals;
for (i = 0; i < count; i++)
rtvals[i] = VM_PAGER_AGAIN;
--- vm/vnode_pager.h Sat Feb 28 16:45:56 1998
+++ vm/vnode_pager.h Sat Feb 28 17:10:31 1998
@@ -46,16 +46,6 @@
vm_object_t vnode_pager_alloc __P((void *, vm_size_t, vm_prot_t, vm_ooffset_t));
void vnode_pager_freepage __P((vm_page_t m));
struct vnode *vnode_pager_lock __P((vm_object_t));
-
-/*
- * XXX Generic routines; currently called by badly written FS code; these
- * XXX should go away soon.
- */
-int vnode_pager_generic_getpages __P((struct vnode *vp, vm_page_t *m,
- int count, int reqpage));
-int vnode_pager_generic_putpages __P((struct vnode *vp, vm_page_t *m,
- int count, boolean_t sync,
- int *rtvals));
#endif
#endif /* _VNODE_PAGER_ */
--- ufs/ffs/ffs_vnops.c Sat Feb 28 17:14:10 1998
+++ ufs/ffs/ffs_vnops.c Sat Feb 28 19:04:26 1998
@@ -62,7 +62,6 @@
static int ffs_fsync __P((struct vop_fsync_args *));
static int ffs_getpages __P((struct vop_getpages_args *));
-static int ffs_putpages __P((struct vop_putpages_args *));
static int ffs_read __P((struct vop_read_args *));
static int ffs_write __P((struct vop_write_args *));
@@ -72,7 +71,6 @@ static struct vnodeopv_entry_desc ffs_vn
{ &vop_default_desc, (vop_t *) ufs_vnoperate },
{ &vop_fsync_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_fsync },
{ &vop_getpages_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_getpages },
- { &vop_putpages_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_putpages },
{ &vop_read_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_read },
{ &vop_reallocblks_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_reallocblks },
{ &vop_write_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_write },
--- ufs/ufs/ufs_readwrite.c Sat Feb 28 17:15:11 1998
+++ ufs/ufs/ufs_readwrite.c Sat Feb 28 17:15:38 1998
@@ -540,16 +540,3 @@ ffs_getpages(ap)
return (rtval);
}
-/*
- * put page routine
- *
- * XXX By default, wimp out... note that a_offset is ignored (and always
- * XXX has been).
- */
-int
-ffs_putpages(ap)
- struct vop_putpages_args *ap;
-{
- return vnode_pager_generic_putpages(ap->a_vp, ap->a_m, ap->a_count,
- ap->a_sync, ap->a_rtvals);
-}
--- kern/vfs_default.c Sat Feb 28 18:59:26 1998
+++ kern/vfs_default.c Sat Feb 28 19:01:51 1998
@@ -64,6 +64,7 @@ static struct vnodeopv_entry_desc defaul
{ &vop_bwrite_desc, (vop_t *) vop_stdbwrite },
{ &vop_close_desc, (vop_t *) vop_null },
{ &vop_fsync_desc, (vop_t *) vop_null },
+ { &vop_getpages_desc, (vop_t *) vop_stdgetpages },
{ &vop_ioctl_desc, (vop_t *) vop_enotty },
{ &vop_islocked_desc, (vop_t *) vop_noislocked },
{ &vop_lease_desc, (vop_t *) vop_null },
@@ -72,6 +73,7 @@ static struct vnodeopv_entry_desc defaul
{ &vop_open_desc, (vop_t *) vop_null },
{ &vop_pathconf_desc, (vop_t *) vop_einval },
{ &vop_poll_desc, (vop_t *) vop_nopoll },
+ { &vop_putpages_desc, (vop_t *) vop_stdputpages },
{ &vop_readlink_desc, (vop_t *) vop_einval },
{ &vop_reallocblks_desc, (vop_t *) vop_eopnotsupp },
{ &vop_revoke_desc, (vop_t *) vop_revoke },
--- sys/vnode.h Sat Feb 28 17:11:08 1998
+++ sys/vnode.h Sat Feb 28 19:30:09 1998
@@ -520,6 +520,8 @@ int vop_einval __P((struct vop_generic_a
int vop_enotty __P((struct vop_generic_args *ap));
int vop_defaultop __P((struct vop_generic_args *ap));
int vop_null __P((struct vop_generic_args *ap));
+int vop_stdgetpages __P((struct vop_getpages_args *ap));
+int vop_stdputpages __P((struct vop_putpages_args *ap));
struct vnode *
checkalias __P((struct vnode *vp, dev_t nvp_rdev, struct mount *mp));
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 04:59:00 1998
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c
X-Attribution: BOFH
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:58:49 +0200
From: Ian Freislich <iang@digs.iafrica.com>
Message-Id: <E0y98KQ-0001ZC-00@brane.digs.iafrica.com>
Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Hi
Noticed this when I tried to compile my kernel this afternoon:
cc -c -O -pipe -Wreturn-type -Wcomment -Wredundant-decls -Wimplicit -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wuninitialized -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../.. -I../../../include -DKERNEL -include opt_global.h ../../pci/pcisupport.c
../../pci/pcisupport.c: In function `chipset_probe':
../../pci/pcisupport.c:217: duplicate case value
../../pci/pcisupport.c:207: this is the first entry for that value
../../pci/pcisupport.c:219: duplicate case value
../../pci/pcisupport.c:209: this is the first entry for that value
../../pci/pcisupport.c:223: duplicate case value
../../pci/pcisupport.c:211: this is the first entry for that value
../../pci/pcisupport.c:225: duplicate case value
../../pci/pcisupport.c:213: this is the first entry for that value
../../pci/pcisupport.c: In function `vga_probe':
../../pci/pcisupport.c:826: warning: declaration of `type' shadows a parameter
../../pci/pcisupport.c:1090: warning: return discards `const' from pointer target type
Looking in the file:
@207:
case 0x71008086:
return ("Intel 82439TX System Controller (MTXC)");
@217:
case 0x71008086:
return ("Intel 82439TX PCI cache memory controller");
I suppose this would have a bad effect on things. I'm not sure if
this part number is both of the things this code suggests it is.
-- igf (Ian Freislich)
http://copernicus.iafrica.com/
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 07:36:43 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:36:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Tao <taob@nbc.netcom.ca>
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Reply-To: Brian Tao <taob@nbc.netcom.ca>
To: FREEBSD-CURRENT <freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Lockup in inode/nfsrcv on loopback NFS mount
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980228233143.22812B-100000@tor-adm1>
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Could someone with a recent -current (I'm using Feb 28's) try
exporting a filesystem, mounting it via localhost and copying a large
file (a few megabytes will do) to the NFS-mounted filesystem? I've
seen results from only NFS locking up, to all filesystems hanging, to
the entire system freezing.
| # showmount -e
| Exports list on localhost:
| /usr/local Everyone
|
| # mount localhost:/usr/local /mnt
| # df
| Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on
| /dev/sd0a 98479 19940 70661 22% /
| /dev/sd0s2e 148703 71996 64811 53% /usr
| /dev/sd0s2f 73855 7499 60448 11% /var
| /dev/sd0s2g 1525999 781757 622163 56% /usr/local
| /dev/sd0s2h 762991 235510 466442 34% /usr/X11R6
| /dev/sd0s2d 452948 216517 200196 52% /home
| procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc
| localhost:/usr/local 1525999 781757 622163 56% /mnt
|
| # cd /mnt/tmp
| # dd if=/dev/zero of=blah
| ^C^C^C^C
At this point, the NFS server processes are waiting in inode, and
the client processes are waiting in either getblk or nfsrcv. Syslog
does manage to log a few "/kernel: nfs server localhost:/usr/local: not
responding". The first sync(8) command (if I can get to a shell) will
never exit (waiting on nfsrcv). A truss on the hung process shows the
last call was a write().
I don't have another machine here to try NFS over Ethernet, nor a
machine with a different -current to try another loopback NFS mount.
UID PID PPID CPU PRI NI VSZ RSS WCHAN STAT TT TIME COMMAND
0 0 0 0 -18 0 0 0 sched DLs ?? 0:00.01 (swapper)
0 1 0 0 10 0 484 132 wait Is ?? 0:00.03 /sbin/init --
0 2 0 0 -18 0 0 0 psleep DL ?? 0:01.12 (pagedaemon)
0 3 0 0 28 0 0 0 psleep DL ?? 0:00.00 (vmdaemon)
0 4 0 0 28 0 0 0 update DL ?? 0:00.03 (update)
0 100 1 0 2 0 768 360 select Is ?? 0:00.10 syslogd
1 110 1 0 2 0 752 320 select Is ?? 0:00.01 portmap
0 118 1 0 2 0 464 148 select Is ?? 0:00.02 mountd -r
0 121 1 25 2 0 312 64 accept Is ?? 0:00.01 nfsd: master (nfsd)
0 125 121 0 -14 0 292 44 inode D ?? 0:00.00 nfsd: server (nfsd)
0 126 121 0 -14 0 292 44 inode D ?? 0:00.00 nfsd: server (nfsd)
0 127 121 19 -1 0 292 44 nfsrcv D ?? 0:02.03 nfsd: server (nfsd)
0 128 121 5 -14 0 292 44 inode D ?? 0:01.35 nfsd: server (nfsd)
0 132 1 9 2 0 204 16 sbwait D ?? 0:01.11 nfsiod -n 4
0 133 1 0 -1 0 204 16 nfsrcv D ?? 0:00.74 nfsiod -n 4
0 134 1 0 -1 0 204 16 nfsrcv D ?? 0:00.00 nfsiod -n 4
0 135 1 0 -1 0 204 16 nfsrcv D ?? 0:00.00 nfsiod -n 4
0 150 1 0 10 0 920 404 nanslp Is ?? 0:00.04 cron
0 154 1 77 18 0 1144 392 pause Is ?? 0:00.01 /usr/sbin/sendmail -q30m
0 196 1 59 2 0 1004 324 accept Is ?? 0:02.23 /usr/local/sbin/sshd
0 252 251 1 2 0 3516 1188 select Ss ?? 0:01.86 SCREEN (screen)
1000 253 252 0 18 0 1304 676 pause Is p1 0:00.34 -usr/local/bin/tcsh
1000 269 253 5 10 0 760 308 piocwa I+ p1 0:00.12 truss cp yamato.the-birth.mp3 blah
1000 270 269 8 -5 0 272 40 getblk D+ p1 0:00.19 cp yamato.the-birth.mp3
1000 255 252 5 18 0 1300 548 pause Is p2 0:00.28 -usr/local/bin/tcsh
1000 257 255 1 2 0 1512 564 select S+ p2 0:01.93 top
1000 256 252 0 18 0 1308 944 pause Ss p3 0:00.55 -usr/local/bin/tcsh
1000 273 256 1 -1 0 136 8 nfsrcv D p3 0:00.01 sync
1000 298 256 1 28 0 668 276 - R+ p3 0:00.00 ps -lax
--
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 07:52:07 1998
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Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
In-Reply-To: <199803011032.NAA02269@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from Dmitrij Tejblum at "Mar 1, 98 01:32:57 pm"
To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:51:46 -0500 (EST)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
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Dmitrij Tejblum said:
> >
> > Unionfs. Specifically, the point is that the unionfs implementation
> > should fan out to the correct underlying implementation. This means
> > it shouldn't go into the default.
>
> But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case.
> Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar
> problems with future new vnode operations :-).
>
Yes. FS types such as union and null where the files are exposed
from multiple vantage points have severe coherency problems, and I
will likely help take a look at those issues when this stuff all
settles out.
>
> > Secondly, you can't make FS-specific optimizations.
>
> Nothing prevent a filesystem to implement its own getpages/putpages and
> override the default.
>
Yes. The original scheme that we had implemented that, in a VM centric
way (which was an expedient choice for me at the time.) The scheme was
changed to look more VFS centric, and cannot say that is bad at all.
I think that moving to a VFS centric approach is less "eccentric." :-).
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 07:53:33 1998
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Subject: Re: Lockup in inode/nfsrcv on loopback NFS mount
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980228233143.22812B-100000@tor-adm1> from Brian Tao at "Mar 1, 98 10:36:38 am"
To: taob@nbc.netcom.ca
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:53:22 -0500 (EST)
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From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Brian Tao said:
> Could someone with a recent -current (I'm using Feb 28's) try
> exporting a filesystem, mounting it via localhost and copying a large
> file (a few megabytes will do) to the NFS-mounted filesystem? I've
> seen results from only NFS locking up, to all filesystems hanging, to
> the entire system freezing.
>
There has been a historical problem with NFSv3 hanging on localhost
filesystems. Is this a possibility? If so, NFSv2 is a short-term
answer (if it is fast enough for you.)
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 08:26:04 1998
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To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
cc: tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:51:46 EST."
<199803011551.KAA02547@dyson.iquest.net>
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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 19:28:35 +0300
From: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
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"John S. Dyson" wrote:
> >
> > Nothing prevent a filesystem to implement its own getpages/putpages and
> > override the default.
> >
> Yes. The original scheme that we had implemented that, in a VM centric
> way (which was an expedient choice for me at the time.) The scheme was
> changed to look more VFS centric, and cannot say that is bad at all.
>
> I think that moving to a VFS centric approach is less "eccentric." :-).
>
I think, the patch I sent in the previous mail make things even more
VFS centric. Could you make it clear: do you like this patch or not?
Dima
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 13:16:05 1998
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From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
To: "FreeBSD Current Users' list" <freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: vfs.ioopt should still be 0 as default
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Sorry John, but the latest VM changes you made seems to break things
here... With vfs.ioopt=1 (the new default), actived (part of INN + insync
patches) dies pretty fast complaining of active's format.
Actived is reading periodically the active file in a buffer and with ioopt
enabled, the read() just read... nothing. Thus the in-memory copy of active
is junk and actived dies.
Mar 1 20:40:59 keltia actived[7148]: internal no_space2 "alt.2600..."
Mar 1 20:40:59 keltia actived[7148]: cant getgrouplist No such file or directory
An overeager read optimisation maybe ?
Sources from 1998/03/01 06:11 CTM cvs-cur #4103
With vfs.ioopt=0, everything's fine.
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #1: Sun Feb 22 00:44:29 CET 1998
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 13:32:50 1998
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To: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 13:32:57 +0300."
<199803011032.NAA02269@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> > > Second, why don't put the operations to default_vnodeop_entries? It is
> > > used exactly by local media filesystems. Stacking layers use bypass
> > > routines instead (unionfs is an exception). So, filesystems even would
> > > not notice this change, until they really want their own implementation
> > > of getpages/putpages
> > >
> > > What is wrong in the above?
> >
> > Unionfs. Specifically, the point is that the unionfs implementation
> > should fan out to the correct underlying implementation. This means
> > it shouldn't go into the default.
>
> But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case.
> Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar
> problems with future new vnode operations :-).
Unless I'm mistaken here the contention is between Terry's point of
view where all filesystems should be stackable, and Dima's where
filesystems may optionally make themselves stackable.
If I'm right, do we have a decision one way or the other? And if so, a
*comprehensive* set of patches that cover the conversion>
I'm happy to fight the style-nit and getting-it-done wars, but I gotta
have the ammunition first. 8)
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 13:48:39 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:47:59 -0800 (PST)
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To: iang@digs.iafrica.com
CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <E0y98KQ-0001ZC-00@brane.digs.iafrica.com> (message from Ian Freislich on Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:58:49 +0200)
Subject: Re: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c
From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami)
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* Looking in the file:
* @207:
* case 0x71008086:
* return ("Intel 82439TX System Controller (MTXC)");
* @217:
* case 0x71008086:
* return ("Intel 82439TX PCI cache memory controller");
Yikes. The second one in my commit yesterday. How did this happen?
(Dig into cvs logs, mail with Jordan, etc....)
Eek. So this was already in -current for quite some time:
===
1.54 Wed Sep 24 7:37:56 1997 by phk
Diffs to 1.53
Remove the 82371 IDE devices.
Add Intel 82439TX System Controller (MTXC)
fix a whitespace problem.
===
But he didn't bother to merge it into -stable. I am running -stable
here (where I made the diffs) and Jordan is running -stable on catfish
too, where we initially noticed that the chipset is not recognized and
also tested the diffs.
Blast. Sorry, will fix it, it is my fault not checking with -current
first.
But I really wish people will merge trivial things like this, with
"real" changes and non-real changes between -stable and -current
intermixed, it's so hard to see what's going on! :<
Satoshi
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:00:15 1998
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To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami)
cc: iang@digs.iafrica.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 13:47:59 PST."
<199803012147.NAA09826@baloon.mimi.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:55:12 +0100
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <199803012147.NAA09826@baloon.mimi.com>, Satoshi Asami writes:
>But I really wish people will merge trivial things like this, with
>"real" changes and non-real changes between -stable and -current
>intermixed, it's so hard to see what's going on! :<
If I had just one single machine running -stable & the time to do so
I would, but neither is available to me at present. It's bad enough
that Bruce has to fix all my commits to -current ;-(
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:10:07 1998
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), iang@digs.iafrica.com,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:55:12 +0100."
<8494.888789312@critter.freebsd.dk>
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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:06:47 -0800
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> In message <199803012147.NAA09826@baloon.mimi.com>, Satoshi Asami writes:
>
> >But I really wish people will merge trivial things like this, with
> >"real" changes and non-real changes between -stable and -current
> >intermixed, it's so hard to see what's going on! :<
>
> If I had just one single machine running -stable & the time to do so
> I would, but neither is available to me at present. It's bad enough
> that Bruce has to fix all my commits to -current ;-(
We can provide a -stable powered spam system for any sort of testing
you please, connected directly to freefall.
No questions asked if you hose it, attended locally PST daytime to
reset, etc, etc.
No excuses. 8)
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:14:46 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), iang@digs.iafrica.com,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:06:47 PST."
<199803012206.OAA09910@dingo.cdrom.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:09:14 +0100
Message-ID: <8569.888790154@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <199803012206.OAA09910@dingo.cdrom.com>, Mike Smith writes:
>> In message <199803012147.NAA09826@baloon.mimi.com>, Satoshi Asami writes:
>>
>> >But I really wish people will merge trivial things like this, with
>> >"real" changes and non-real changes between -stable and -current
>> >intermixed, it's so hard to see what's going on! :<
>>
>> If I had just one single machine running -stable & the time to do so
>> I would, but neither is available to me at present. It's bad enough
>> that Bruce has to fix all my commits to -current ;-(
>
>We can provide a -stable powered spam system for any sort of testing
>you please, connected directly to freefall.
Yeah, right with 40% packet drop it's not going to help much :-(
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:20:21 1998
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Subject: Re: vfs.ioopt should still be 0 as default
In-Reply-To: <19980301221218.A320@keltia.freenix.fr> from Ollivier Robert at "Mar 1, 98 10:12:18 pm"
To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:19:11 -0500 (EST)
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Ollivier Robert said:
>
> An overeager read optimisation maybe ?
>
No, algorithmic bug still.
>
> With vfs.ioopt=0, everything's fine.
>
Will turn it off by default again, until I can figure it
out.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:28:39 1998
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Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
In-Reply-To: <199803011628.TAA00579@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from Dmitrij Tejblum at "Mar 1, 98 07:28:35 pm"
To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:28:19 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Dmitrij Tejblum said:
> "John S. Dyson" wrote:
> > >
> > > Nothing prevent a filesystem to implement its own getpages/putpages and
> > > override the default.
> > >
> > Yes. The original scheme that we had implemented that, in a VM centric
> > way (which was an expedient choice for me at the time.) The scheme was
> > changed to look more VFS centric, and cannot say that is bad at all.
> >
> > I think that moving to a VFS centric approach is less "eccentric." :-).
> >
> I think, the patch I sent in the previous mail make things even more
> VFS centric. Could you make it clear: do you like this patch or not?
>
I am barely back on my feet, and haven't studied the code yet. However,
it initially looks like a good thing.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803012230.PAA26918@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:30:49 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803011032.NAA02269@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from "Dmitrij Tejblum" at Mar 1, 98 01:32:57 pm
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> > > Second, why don't put the operations to default_vnodeop_entries? It is
> > > used exactly by local media filesystems. Stacking layers use bypass
> > > routines instead (unionfs is an exception). So, filesystems even would
> > > not notice this change, until they really want their own implementation
> > > of getpages/putpages
> > >
> > > What is wrong in the above?
> >
> > Unionfs. Specifically, the point is that the unionfs implementation
> > should fan out to the correct underlying implementation. This means
> > it shouldn't go into the default.
>
> But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case.
> Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar
> problems with future new vnode operations :-).
Until this happens, I would prefer that the unionfs not silently
pretend that there is no problem with the way it works, lulling
innocent users into a false sense of security.
> > > I can send a patch for you... It is indeed pretty easy...
> >
> > See above for the patch. It's the identification problem and the
> > stacking problem that I wanted to handle on a case-by-case basis.
>
> I don't see why default ops doesn't solve stacking problems.
Because they provide a default operation for every FS, even FS's
you want to use the bypass instead.
The reasoning here is that once stacking starts working reliably,
there is going to be an explosion in FS stack developement. I am
personally intenting to implement a UMSDOS stacking layer that is
compatible with Udo Walter's UMSDOSFS in Linux (if __LINUX_ is there,
it will use it). I am also very interested in doing a stacking
layer for quotas, so that they work in all FS's, not just FFS. And
of course, a split stacking layer similar to the Heidemann Thesis
network proxy layer, except that it will proxy to user space so I
can compile/source-debug/recompile/... FS code in user space.
Because of this expected explosion, the number of FS's using the
bypass vs. the FS's using the default ops will be much smaller.
Ideally, there will be *no* default ops. This was the point of
John's comments about simplification in the vnode_pager code.
> > As I said, it's possible to make this change go transparent (#2,
> > above); I would actually prefer an implementation that does *not*
> > define the generic code as default ops, so if it has to go
> > transparent, it should go transparent that way, not the default
> > ops way, so at least there are warning messages emitted.
>
> If you want list of all filesystems to fix them you can do 'ls /sys',
> 'ls /sys/gnu', and 'ls /sys/miscfs' and exclude some non-filesystem
> directories. Also, if you really don't want the generic code be a
> default ops, you can make it non-default ops and insert the ops to each
> vnode table that require it.
Local media FS's, and FS's that mimic local media FS's (of which thre
is one, NFS) are the only FS's impacted. The list is:
ffs, ext2fs, lfs (which is no longer there), msdosfs,
cd9660 (get only), and NFS (which presents some strong
problems, none of which are caused by the change, and
only cares about putpages, which mostly needs to be
written from scratch, given the current state of NFS).
Where it does not impact are:
mfs, deadfs, devfs, fdesc, fifofs, kernfs, nullfs, portal,
procfs, sockfs, specfs, umapfs, and union.
Tallies:
FS's that have get/put: 2
FS's that are defunct: 1 (stacking FS's not included)
2 pro putpages (msdosfs/NFS)
2 pro getpages (msdosfs/cd9660)
--
FS's that are "pro defaultops": 3 (bypass subtotal)
FS's that are "pro bypass": 3
FS's that don't care: 10
--
19 (total)
The vote is 5:3 against defaultops, with 10 abstentions (11 if you
count "Chicago votes" ;-)).
Out of 19 FS's, we have 2 that still need putpages, and NFS arguably
can not use the existing putpages, since client writes will fail
anyway, and 2 that still need getpages.
I think we should just make the 4 stub functions, on an as-needed
basis. At the very least, we now have some very interesting FS
demographics by what has and hasn't triggered the warning.
> > You should also follow the NFS case in vnode_pager_generic_getpages
> > and look at all the other vp->v_mount references. Look what the
> > change means to VOP_BMAP, specifically with regard to the assumptions
> > comment in vnode_pager_generic_getpages and vnode_pager_input_smlfs's
> > being called -- with the same assumptions but without the test. It's
> > pretty obvious that the VOP_BMAP return test is equal to the NFS
> > test. This code is at the heart of a lot of problems, and I'd like
> > to take it slow...
>
> TBH, I dont understand why the generic_getpages mention NFS at all. NFS
> has its own getpages.
;-). I wondered if that would be caught by anyone or not... I don't
think anyone else did a find/grep on getpages/putpages. 8-).
> Dima
>
> Here is my patch against -current as of yesterday.
The problem with this is that it recomplicates the world for FS's
that want to use the bypass, and only provides a fix that we already
know how to provide, in a better way.
If we have to modify the same number of FS's in both cases (3), and
we have to play with either (4) or (6) ops, I vote for playing with
(4).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:38:31 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803012238.PAA27380@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:38:07 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru, tlambert@primenet.com,
FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803012130.NAA09796@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Mar 1, 98 01:30:46 pm
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> > But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case.
> > Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar
> > problems with future new vnode operations :-).
>
> Unless I'm mistaken here the contention is between Terry's point of
> view where all filesystems should be stackable, and Dima's where
> filesystems may optionally make themselves stackable.
>
> If I'm right, do we have a decision one way or the other? And if so, a
> *comprehensive* set of patches that cover the conversion>
>
> I'm happy to fight the style-nit and getting-it-done wars, but I gotta
> have the ammunition first. 8)
This is a very succinct statement of the problem.
I don't know if I can make the bypass work without NULL decriptor
entries that don't result in defaultops being called.
I also notice that the number of local media FS's is expected to
fall (ie: LFS died), while the number of stacking FS's are expected
to rise (ie: I expect to provide 3 or more, and other people have
been considering ACL and cryptographic stacking layers).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:44:15 1998
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Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
In-Reply-To: <199803012130.NAA09796@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Mar 1, 98 01:30:46 pm"
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:43:35 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru, tlambert@primenet.com,
FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Mike Smith said:
>
> Unless I'm mistaken here the contention is between Terry's point of
> view where all filesystems should be stackable, and Dima's where
> filesystems may optionally make themselves stackable.
>
Yes.
>
> If I'm right, do we have a decision one way or the other? And if so, a
> *comprehensive* set of patches that cover the conversion>
>
No, if we go with the approach of all filesystems stackable in a
*traditional* way, we will likely have coherency problems. I don't
have time to do all of the research, but it seems that others are
starting to do so (and that is a VERY GOOD thing.) So, for those
filesystems that it doesn't make sense to use the traditional
approaches, and minor mistakes made, then we'll have to teach
the code some exceptions.
>
> I'm happy to fight the style-nit and getting-it-done wars, but I gotta
> have the ammunition first. 8)
>
Get it done. I don't like style-nit wars. (Other's on -core might
disagree, but we'll discuss that privately if need be.) We can
ALWAYS work the style nit issues. I don't like to see stuff
that is a-priori known to be "messy" committed to the tree though.
IF we have to choose between form and substance, let's go with
substance. It is best to try to balance both though. Never
commit code that you know to be incorrect.
Remember, we are also considering stabilizing the system soon,
and that means things like VM and VFS MUST be working well so
that the upper level functionality has a chance to be debugged
and made to be working well!!!
I am "on the mend" right now, at least doing some commits that
have been languishing in my queue for a week or so. (However,
they broke some read/write, mmap coherency -- to be fixed in
an hour or so.)
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 15:19:59 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:19:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Tao <taob@nbc.netcom.ca>
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To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Lockup in inode/nfsrcv on loopback NFS mount
In-Reply-To: <199803011553.KAA02555@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
>
> There has been a historical problem with NFSv3 hanging on localhost
> filesystems. Is this a possibility? If so, NFSv2 is a short-term
> answer (if it is fast enough for you.)
Yep, NFSv2 works, but it creeps along very slowly. A dd never
seems to climb above about 400K/sec on a P100, regardless of the block
size. I notice a lot of hard drive chatter during any sustained write
operation. Anyway, I don't actually need loopback NFS mounts... it
was something I tried when tracking down another problem.
Is it specifically a problem with the lo interface? Can it be
avoided by somehow going through an Ethernet driver?
--
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 15:59:04 1998
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Subject: Re: Lockup in inode/nfsrcv on loopback NFS mount
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980301181316.18657B-100000@tor-adm1> from Brian Tao at "Mar 1, 98 06:19:50 pm"
To: taob@nbc.netcom.ca (Brian Tao)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:58:45 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Brian Tao said:
> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> >
> > There has been a historical problem with NFSv3 hanging on localhost
> > filesystems. Is this a possibility? If so, NFSv2 is a short-term
> > answer (if it is fast enough for you.)
>
> Yep, NFSv2 works, but it creeps along very slowly. A dd never
> seems to climb above about 400K/sec on a P100, regardless of the block
> size. I notice a lot of hard drive chatter during any sustained write
> operation. Anyway, I don't actually need loopback NFS mounts... it
> was something I tried when tracking down another problem.
>
> Is it specifically a problem with the lo interface? Can it be
> avoided by somehow going through an Ethernet driver?
>
I think that it is a deadlock mostly at the VFS/NFS level. Using
the ethernet driver *might* give enough buffering, but I think that
the deadlock is inevitable even in that case. As it is now, NFSv3
on a localhost (or any loopback) will likely be a problem.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 16:01:03 1998
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Message-ID: <19980302000231.14861@klemm.gtn.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:02:31 +0100
From: Andreas Klemm <andreas@klemm.gtn.com>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: make rerelease fails after about 60 minutes ...
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===> FAQ
===> handbook
cd /usr/doc ; make afterdistribute DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/bin
===> FAQ
cd /usr/doc/FAQ ; make install DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/bin SHARED=copies
install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 FAQ*.html /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/share/doc/FAQ
usage: install [-CcDps] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] file1 file2
install [-CcDps] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] file1 ...
fileN directory
install -d [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] directory ...
*** Error code 64
Stop.
*** Error code 1
Stop.
*** Error code 1
Stop.
*** Error code 1
--
Andreas Klemm
powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD''
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 16:15:10 1998
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:30:49 GMT."
<199803012230.PAA26918@usr08.primenet.com>
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From: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> > But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case.
> > Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar
> > problems with future new vnode operations :-).
>
> Until this happens, I would prefer that the unionfs not silently
> pretend that there is no problem with the way it works, lulling
> innocent users into a false sense of security.
>
> > > See above for the patch. It's the identification problem and the
> > > stacking problem that I wanted to handle on a case-by-case basis.
> >
> > I don't see why default ops doesn't solve stacking problems.
>
> Because they provide a default operation for every FS, even FS's
> you want to use the bypass instead.
Stacking layers supposed to use generic bypass routine, like this:
{ &vop_default_desc, (vop_t *) null_bypass },
This is the whole point of stacking layers --- they can bypass any
operation that they don't need to handle specifically.
If you disagree with the above statement, you can anyway put
vop_stdgetpages and vop_stdputpages to each local media filesystem's
vnops table, instead of cut&paste the trivial implementation (I repeat
it 3rd time, since I didn't seen an answer to it).
Also, stacking layers will not use the default anyway, if they are
going to work. So I wouldn't count them as vote against getpages/putpages
in the default ops table. If they cannot use a generic bypass, no
one warning will save them from lot of troubles.
>
> Ideally, there will be *no* default ops. This was the point of
> John's comments about simplification in the vnode_pager code.
The comment is there for years.... I will wait until it actually
happens.
[...]
> > > You should also follow the NFS case in vnode_pager_generic_getpages
> > > and look at all the other vp->v_mount references. Look what the
> > > change means to VOP_BMAP, specifically with regard to the assumptions
> > > comment in vnode_pager_generic_getpages and vnode_pager_input_smlfs's
> > > being called -- with the same assumptions but without the test. It's
> > > pretty obvious that the VOP_BMAP return test is equal to the NFS
> > > test. This code is at the heart of a lot of problems, and I'd like
Obvious, but doesn't true. NFS implement VOP_BMAP 8-).
> > > to take it slow...
Dima
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 16:33:42 1998
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From: Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: gdb broken in -current
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On a system built this morning:
$ gdb a.out
GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it
under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for
details.
GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd),
Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc...Segmentation fault
(core dumped)
Typical hello world programs do not exhibit the problem. In fact it
cores dump when it tries to load the symbol table:
$ gdb
GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it
under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for
details.
GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1996 Free Software
Foundation, Inc.
(gdb) target exec a.out
(gdb) file a.out
Reading symbols from a.out...Segmentation fault (core dumped)
Jean-Marc
_____________________________________________________________________________
Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex
PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 17:10:43 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803020110.SAA07018@usr04.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw
To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:10:22 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803020018.DAA01416@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from "Dmitrij Tejblum" at Mar 2, 98 03:18:37 am
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> > > I don't see why default ops doesn't solve stacking problems.
> >
> > Because they provide a default operation for every FS, even FS's
> > you want to use the bypass instead.
>
> Stacking layers supposed to use generic bypass routine, like this:
> { &vop_default_desc, (vop_t *) null_bypass },
> This is the whole point of stacking layers --- they can bypass any
> operation that they don't need to handle specifically.
>
> If you disagree with the above statement, you can anyway put
> vop_stdgetpages and vop_stdputpages to each local media filesystem's
> vnops table, instead of cut&paste the trivial implementation (I repeat
> it 3rd time, since I didn't seen an answer to it).
That's exactly what the generic code is.
The decomplication is supposed to occur when we implement FS specific
getpages/putpages, instead of using the generic version (exactly the
same as your defaultops version, except for the a_offset stuff, which
is ignored by the previous and current implementations).
The point in doing it the way it's currently being done is that the
FS's can be handled on a case-by-case basis. There's no clear line
of demarcation in the defaultops implementsion: when do you get rid
of the defaultops implementation? How do you tell it is no longer
referenced?
> Also, stacking layers will not use the default anyway, if they are
> going to work. So I wouldn't count them as vote against getpages/putpages
> in the default ops table. If they cannot use a generic bypass, no
> one warning will save them from lot of troubles.
No. But the warning *will* tell *me* to write code. If someone has
a problem, it's more likely that I will get information given the
warning than I will without it. Without it, people will need to
understand the FS stacking code. This is unlikely, even if I (and you)
do understand what's going on here.
> > Ideally, there will be *no* default ops. This was the point of
> > John's comments about simplification in the vnode_pager code.
>
> The comment is there for years.... I will wait until it actually
> happens.
The problem is "how can I incrementally get there from here?". The
problem is how to present it as evolution when in fact, it is revolution.
This is equivalent to the "show your work" requirement in calculus tests;
you may be able to intuitively arrive at the right answer, but unless you
explain your intuition (mathematicians are hard-asses), you can't use
it as an answer.
> > > > You should also follow the NFS case in vnode_pager_generic_getpages
> > > > and look at all the other vp->v_mount references. Look what the
> > > > change means to VOP_BMAP, specifically with regard to the assumptions
> > > > comment in vnode_pager_generic_getpages and vnode_pager_input_smlfs's
> > > > being called -- with the same assumptions but without the test. It's
> > > > pretty obvious that the VOP_BMAP return test is equal to the NFS
> > > > test. This code is at the heart of a lot of problems, and I'd like
>
> Obvious, but doesn't true. NFS implement VOP_BMAP 8-).
Yes, it does. That's the source of the problem here. As John said,
and I've insisted for some time, the problem is in the aliases.
I will compromise by providing patches for the affected FS's, on the theory
that "anything that works is better than anything that doesn't"...
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 17:49:56 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803020149.SAA08734@usr04.primenet.com>
Subject: Remaining local media and NFS get/put/pages patches
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:49:35 +0000 (GMT)
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Here are the remaining patches for local media and pseudo-local media
FS's:
http://www.freebsd.org/~terry/D.GP.REST.txt
http://www.freebsd.org/~terry/D.GP.REST
============================================================================
Here are the patches for the remaining local media FS's.
Against my better judgement, I've include putpages for NFS and CD9660.
This should resolve all warning messages from getpages that are not
a result of a bypass failure (bypass failures need to be corrected
seperately; any place they occur was a failure mode before, so there
are no remaining "gotch's" to the code).
EOF
============================================================================
This should resolve the existing contention about defaultvops.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 18:31:43 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: 3.0-RELEASE?
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 02:33:35 GMT
Message-ID: <350119f8.29209005@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <199803012243.RAA03448@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:43:35 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson"
<dyson@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>Remember, we are also considering stabilizing the system soon
As in 3.0-RELEASE?
I would like to see that. Probably many others would too.
--
Browser war over, Mozilla now free.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:18:09 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:19:29 GMT
Message-ID: <350322e7.31438465@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <199803020258.VAA04156@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:58:57 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson"
<toor@dyson.iquest.net> wrote:
>> >Remember, we are also considering stabilizing the system soon
>>
>> As in 3.0-RELEASE?
>>
>> I would like to see that. Probably many others would too.
>>
>Not sure, but it isn't going to be "tomorrow."
Before the weather gets hot would be good.
I think it's needed before the next big wave of architectural changes
hits the tree, like ELF and such. Those should be called 4.0. Maybe
3.X will have a short life span, but that's OK -- many people need 3.0
now.
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:21:52 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:19:29 GMT."
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Curious for what do you need 3.0 current?
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:23:27 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:19:29 GMT."
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There Elves among us 8)
Amancio
jdp@freebsd.org said:
> freefall.freebsd.org:/f/users/jdp/binutils/src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils
> Log Message:
> Add bmakefiles for building binutils from the contrib tree.
> This finishes up the binutils import. But I am leaving it
> disabled
> in "src/gnu/usr.bin/Makefile" for now. It is not used by anything
> yet, so I'll take this opportunity to run one more round of tests
> before enabling it.
> Status:
> Vendor Tag: JDP
> Release Tags: jdp_2_8_1
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/Makefile
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/Makefile.inc
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/Makefile.inc0
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/update.sh
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/addr2line/Makefile
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/ar/Makefile
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/c++filt/Makefile
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/c++filt/underscore.c
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/Makefile
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/Makefile.inc
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/Makefile.inc0
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/as/Makefile
> N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/as/config.h
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:25:34 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:26:57 GMT
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On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 19:20:49 -0800, Amancio Hasty
<hasty@rah.star-gate.com> wrote:
>Curious for what do you need 3.0 current?
SMP and new PPPD 2.3.1. Reportedly better VM performance will be nice
to have too.
--
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <350322e7.31438465@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 2, 98 03:19:29 am"
To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:28:19 -0500 (EST)
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John Kelly said:
>
> Before the weather gets hot would be good.
>
> I think it's needed before the next big wave of architectural changes
> hits the tree, like ELF and such. Those should be called 4.0. Maybe
> 3.X will have a short life span, but that's OK -- many people need 3.0
> now.
>
I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing
will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support,
but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
primary or not.
I cannot imagine an official freeze will happen before at least a month
or two. As I suggested though, the lower-level subsystems need to work
well very very soon.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <350322e7.31438465@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 2, 98 03:19:29 am"
To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:33:09 +1100 (EST)
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John Kelly wrote:
> Before the weather gets hot would be good.
In what part of the world?
Yes it's been too <expletive deleted> hot here lately. 8-)
--
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:34:30 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:36:06 GMT
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:33:09 +1100 (EST), John Birrell
<jb@cimlogic.com.au> wrote:
>John Kelly wrote:
>> Before the weather gets hot would be good.
>
>In what part of the world?
The cool part. :-)
>Yes it's been too <expletive deleted> hot here lately. 8-)
>Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137
--
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803020328.WAA04267@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 1, 98 10:28:19 pm"
To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:37:31 +1100 (EST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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John S. Dyson wrote:
> It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> primary or not.
Has anyone decided what the aout to elf upgrade procedure will be?
--
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:39:05 1998
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On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 3:36:06 +0000, John Kelly wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:33:09 +1100 (EST), John Birrell
> <jb@cimlogic.com.au> wrote:
>
>> John Kelly wrote:
>
>>> Before the weather gets hot would be good.
>>
>> In what part of the world?
>
> The cool part. :-)
That includes Melbourne.
>> Yes it's been too <expletive deleted> hot here lately. 8-)
>> Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:41:57 1998
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To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
cc: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing
> will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> primary or not.
I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and
softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc..
But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad.
I was counting on 3.0 till last quarter of '98 though. hmmm
Chris
--
"I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out."
===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
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===================================| http://open-systems.net
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 20:02:12 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.980301223458.6402A-100000@orion.webspan.net> from Open Systems Networking at "Mar 1, 98 10:41:23 pm"
To: opsys@mail.webspan.net (Open Systems Networking)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:01:51 -0500 (EST)
Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Open Systems Networking said:
> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
>
> > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing
> > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> > primary or not.
>
> I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and
> softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc..
> But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad.
>
> I was counting on 3.0 till last quarter of '98 though. hmmm
>
I can't imagine having 3.0 ready before the middle of the year. IMO,
and not necessarily that of the rest -core, I think that the "last quarter"
is too long.
Note that my comments MUST NOT be construed to being any kind of political
statement, other than a caveat that it is time to get the lower level
code in order (including my own work.) My guess is that the VFS and VM
code needs to be stabilized within the next month or so. That means that
low level enhancements need to be made with care. I applaud all of the
new work being done on the VFS code, but am also trying to suggest that
care be taken when making mods. That includes a quick back-out plan just
in case there are problems.
It is too early to say what every middle and upper level piece that
will be in 3.0.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 20:11:38 1998
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From: Oliver Banta <obanta@unixgeeks.net>
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: CDRs
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Hello,
I was just curious what the best SCSI CDR that FreeBSD currently
supports is. I was thinking about getting a Yamaha, but thought I
would check to make sure it was supported. I checked the FreeBSD
homepage and couldn't find a current supported hardware list anywhere,
so if one exists I'd greatly appreciate a pointer to it.
Cheers,
--
Oliver Banta <obanta@unixgeeks.net> | Computer Engineering Major at UNL
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct,
not tried it." -- Donald Knuth
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 21:14:42 1998
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To: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:33:09 +1100."
<199803020333.OAA10430@cimlogic.com.au>
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> John Kelly wrote:
> > Before the weather gets hot would be good.
>
> In what part of the world?
>
> Yes it's been too <expletive deleted> hot here lately. 8-)
Well don't look at *me*. I left and came here where it's been
*raining* the last three weeks. I could have done with a bit of sun
first, for sure.
8)
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 21:28:36 1998
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To: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson), current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:37:31 +1100."
<199803020337.OAA10460@cimlogic.com.au>
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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:25:54 -0800
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> John S. Dyson wrote:
> > It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> > primary or not.
>
> Has anyone decided what the aout to elf upgrade procedure will be?
That's likely to come out of the bruises that the 'early adopters' are
going to wear, but I would say that the initial approach will be "set
BINFORMAT=elf and rebuild the world".
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 22:02:48 1998
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Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:01:45 +1100
From: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>
Organization: SCITEC LIMITED
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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Mike Smith wrote:
> > John S. Dyson wrote:
> > > It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> > > primary or not.
> >
> > Has anyone decided what the aout to elf upgrade procedure will be?
>
> That's likely to come out of the bruises that the 'early adopters' are
> going to wear, but I would say that the initial approach will be "set
> BINFORMAT=elf and rebuild the world".
You might want to be running a kernel that groks ELF with ELF shared
libraries installed before you do a make world. Otherwise I can see a
point where you overwrite an a.out program that is needed to complete
the make world. Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both
executable formats? Will the make world build both ELF and a.out
shared libraries? Or will a.out basically die off?
Cheers.
-- +------------------------------------------------------------+
. | John Saunders mailto:John.Saunders@scitec.com.au (Work) |
,--_|\ | mailto:john@nlc.net.au (Home) |
/ Oz \ | http://www.nlc.net.au/~john/ |
\_,--\_/ | SCITEC LIMITED Phone +61 2 9428 9563 Fax +61 2 9428 9933 |
v | "By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends." |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 22:46:06 1998
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <34FA4B49.4747FC37@scitec.com.au> from John Saunders at "Mar 2, 98 05:01:45 pm"
To: john.saunders@scitec.com.au (John Saunders)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:45:12 +0100 (MET)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Søren Schmidt <sos@FreeBSD.ORG>
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In reply to John Saunders who wrote:
>
> You might want to be running a kernel that groks ELF with ELF shared
> libraries installed before you do a make world. Otherwise I can see a
> point where you overwrite an a.out program that is needed to complete
> the make world. Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both
> executable formats? Will the make world build both ELF and a.out
> shared libraries? Or will a.out basically die off?
As the "director" of the ELF project, I can tell you that we will do
our utmost to make this transition easy and painless. All the needed
utils will be broght in over the next week or so, and then it will
be made possible to convert the userland to ELF. It will still be
possible to use aout, and the system default will probably be aout
for some time to come.
The kernel is another matter, which we will address after the userlanc
transition.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team
Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 07:33:26 1998
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From: Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
To: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <9803020037.AA13001@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> (message from
Jean-Marc Zucconi on Mon, 2 Mar 98 01:37:29 +0100)
Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current
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By "On a system built this morning:" do you mean that you did a cvsup,
make world, rebuild the kernel and reboot? If you do a make world,
you should rebuild the kernel.
I was running an old kernel and saw the same problem.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 08:34:14 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:29:59 +0100
From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@eurocontrol.fr>
To: "FreeBSD Current Users' list" <freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
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Running a CURRENT kernel with the softupdate code of 2/24/98 leads to the
following panic. It is always failing at the same place in
"softdep_setup_allocindir_page".
Now, it is procmail that trigger the problem although the filesystem in
question is not very heavily used.
/dev/sd1s1h on /home (local, noatime, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 367)
Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
fault virtual address = 0xf2334000
fault code = supervisor write, page not present
instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf0190e06
stack pointer = 0x10:0xf407fc88
frame pointer = 0x10:0xf407fccc
code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b
= DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1
processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0
current process = 322 (procmail)
interrupt mask =
trap number = 12
panic: page fault
#0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:296
296 dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3();
(kgdb) where
#0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:296
#1 0xf0113fde in panic (fmt=0xf0191d9f "page fault")
at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:436
#2 0xf01929a9 in trap_fatal (frame=0xf407fc4c) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:842
#3 0xf0192444 in trap_pfault (frame=0xf407fc4c, usermode=0)
at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:735
#4 0xf019210b in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = -231522304,
tf_esi = -223766528, tf_ebp = -200803124, tf_isp = -200803212,
tf_ebx = -238411264, tf_edx = 8192, tf_ecx = 512, tf_eax = -7755776,
tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 2, tf_eip = -266793466, tf_cs = 8,
tf_eflags = 66054, tf_esp = -259828448, tf_ss = 0})
at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:363
#5 0xf0190e06 in generic_bcopy ()
#6 0xf016ab73 in softdep_setup_allocindir_page (ip=0xf0895600, lbn=514,
bp=0xf1ca2200, ptrno=502, newblkno=149872, oldblkno=0, nbp=0xf1c93708)
at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_softdep.c:1416
#7 0xf0168173 in ffs_balloc (ap=0xf407fe88) at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_balloc.c:302
#8 0xf017172f in ffs_write (ap=0xf407fee0) at vnode_if.h:995
#9 0xf013b372 in vn_write (fp=0xf07b7740, uio=0xf407ff28, cred=0xf08b2d80)
at vnode_if.h:331
#10 0xf011c36e in write (p=0xf4072c40, uap=0xf407ff84)
at ../../kern/sys_generic.c:268
#11 0xf0192c3c in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi = 5,
tf_esi = 98304, tf_ebp = -272638920, tf_isp = -200802348, tf_ebx = 2166,
tf_edx = 2166, tf_ecx = 0, tf_eax = 4, tf_trapno = 0, tf_err = 7,
tf_eip = 537479713, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 643, tf_esp = -272638948,
tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:994
#12 0x20094a21 in ?? ()
#13 0x66e1 in ?? ()
#14 0x6d9b in ?? ()
#15 0x429b in ?? ()
#16 0x1095 in ?? ()
#6 0xf016ab73 in softdep_setup_allocindir_page (ip=0xf0895600, lbn=514,
bp=0xf1ca2200, ptrno=502, newblkno=149872, oldblkno=0, nbp=0xf1c93708)
at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_softdep.c:1416
1416 setup_allocindir_phase2(bp, ip, aip);
(kgdb) print *bp
$1 = {b_hash = {le_next = 0xf1c66d00, le_prev = 0xf01d2410}, b_vnbufs = {
le_next = 0x0, le_prev = 0xf1c93710}, b_freelist = {tqe_next = 0xf1cadd10,
tqe_prev = 0xf1c8ff34}, b_act = {tqe_next = 0x0, tqe_prev = 0xf07b7e94},
b_proc = 0x0, b_flags = 536870960, b_qindex = 0, b_usecount = 6 '\006',
b_error = 0, b_bufsize = 8192, b_bcount = 8192, b_resid = 0,
b_dev = 4294967295, b_data = 0xf2a98000 "ð\030\002",
b_kvabase = 0xf2a98000 "ð\030\002", b_kvasize = 8192, b_lblkno = -12,
b_blkno = -12, b_iodone = 0, b_iodone_chain = 0x0, b_vp = 0xf40067e0,
b_dirtyoff = 0, b_dirtyend = 0, b_generation = 11, b_rcred = 0x0,
b_wcred = 0x0, b_validoff = 0, b_validend = 0, b_pblkno = 3087692,
b_saveaddr = 0x0, b_savekva = 0x0, b_driver1 = 0x0, b_driver2 = 0x0,
b_spc = 0x0, b_cluster = {cluster_head = {tqh_first = 0x0, tqh_last = 0x0},
cluster_entry = {tqe_next = 0x0, tqe_prev = 0x0}}, b_pages = {0xf043deb0,
0xf043dee4, 0x0 <repeats 30 times>}, b_npages = 2, b_dep = {
lh_first = 0x0}}
(kgdb) print *ip
$2 = {i_lock = {lk_interlock = {lock_data = -238654208},
lk_flags = 4028441616, lk_sharecount = 0, lk_waitcount = -238471408,
lk_exclusivecount = -8944, lk_prio = -3638,
lk_wmesg = 0xf1c8ff34 "¸iÈñtÈÈñ", lk_timo = 0,
lk_lockholder = -260342124}, i_hash = {le_next = 0x0,
le_prev = 0x20000030}, i_vnode = 0x60000, i_devvp = 0x0, i_flag = 8192,
i_dev = 8192, i_number = 0, i_effnlink = -1, inode_u = {fs = 0xf2a98000,
e2fs = 0xf2a98000}, i_dquot = {0xf2a98000, 0x2000},
i_modrev = 0xfffffff4fffffff4, i_lockf = 0x0, i_count = 0,
i_endoff = -201300000, i_diroff = 0, i_offset = 0, i_ino = 11, i_reclen = 0,
i_spare = {0, 0, 0, 3087692, 0}, i_din = {di_mode = 0, di_nlink = 0, di_u = {
oldids = {0, 0}, inumber = 0}, di_size = 0, di_atime = 0,
di_atimensec = 0, di_mtime = -263987536, di_mtimensec = -263987484,
di_ctime = 0, di_ctimensec = 0, di_db = {0 <repeats 12 times>}, di_ib = {
0, 0, 0}, di_flags = 0, di_blocks = 0, di_gen = 0, di_uid = 0,
di_gid = 0, di_spare = {0, 0}}}
(kgdb) print *aip
$3 = {ai_list = {wk_list = {le_next = 0x0, le_prev = 0x0}, wk_type = 0,
wk_state = 0}, ai_next = {le_next = 0x0, le_prev = 0x0}, ai_offset = 0,
ai_newblkno = 0, ai_oldblkno = 0, ai_freefrag = 0x0, ai_indirdep = 0x0,
ai_deps = {le_next = 0x0, le_prev = 0x0}, ai_buf = 0x0}
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- Eurocontrol EEC/TS -=- Ollivier.Robert@eurocontrol.fr
FreeBSD caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr 3.0-CURRENT #3: Mon Mar 2 15:06:59 CET 1998
roberto@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr:/home/build/soft/sys/compile/CAERDONN i386
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 08:54:09 1998
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From: Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>
To: tomdean@ix.netcom.com
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803021531.HAA00593@ix.netcom.com> (message from Thomas Dean
on Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:31:47 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current
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>>>>> Thomas Dean writes:
> By "On a system built this morning:" do you mean that you did a cvsup,
> make world, rebuild the kernel and reboot? If you do a make world,
> you should rebuild the kernel.
Yes. the whole system and the kernel are compiled from cvs-cur-4103
(1998/03/01-06:11)
Jean-Marc
_____________________________________________________________________________
Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex
PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 08:55:29 1998
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From: Steve Passe <smp@csn.net>
To: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>, John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:41:23 EST."
<Pine.BSF.3.95.980301223458.6402A-100000@orion.webspan.net>
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Hi,
> > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing
> > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> > primary or not.
>
> I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and
> softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc..
> But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad.
I know this probably won't be good news for most, but I don't see SMP being
in 3.0:
The way things are going now, it wont be anytime soon. I don't expect to
be able to participate again till late fall at the earliest. No one else
has stepped up to take over.
The state it is in now is NOT release quality. I don't think there is much
finer grained locking to be had without MAJOR changes to the design,
specifically the slpx() stuff needs to be replaced with critical sections
protected by a mutex mechanism. I played around with techniques for
allowing both CPUs into the kernel at the same time with the current
splx() design but it appears to be a loosing proposition.
My suggestion (assumming no new major push REAL SOON) is to remove the
SMP support from 3.0 and make a release out of it (when all other things
are ready). Then continue SMP efforts in 4.0 At the very least the
experimental things defined in smptests.h need to either be incorporated
as default (most everything but PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4), or removed
entirely ie. PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4. These are my above mentioned attempts
to allow both CPUs in simultaniously. Its ugly code, and will never
be 'right'.
--
Steve Passe | powered by
smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 09:04:23 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803021704.KAA14250@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
To: roberto@eurocontrol.fr (Ollivier Robert)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:04:04 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19980302172959.38382@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Mar 2, 98 05:29:59 pm
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> Running a CURRENT kernel with the softupdate code of 2/24/98 leads to the
> following panic. It is always failing at the same place in
> "softdep_setup_allocindir_page".
>
> Now, it is procmail that trigger the problem although the filesystem in
> question is not very heavily used.
>
> /dev/sd1s1h on /home (local, noatime, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 367)
Is this always, or only "mostly", repeatable?
I would seriously suggest that you turn off "noatime", and try to repeat
this again.
The "noatime" is probably something which should be disallowed with
soft updates; I'm not sire, but I believe the dependency resolvers
make certain assumptions about the relationship graphs, and that might
include subgraph vector length (which you would change by disabling
the atime change node creation).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 09:16:31 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:16:25 +0100
From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@eurocontrol.fr>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
References: <19980302172959.38382@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> <199803021704.KAA14250@usr02.primenet.com>
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According to Terry Lambert:
> Is this always, or only "mostly", repeatable?
Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I
have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current
and running/compiling some programs.
That's too random to get a clear picture.
> I would seriously suggest that you turn off "noatime", and try to repeat
> this again.
I've begun to suspect this a bit and all the FS with softupdate don't have
"noatime" anymore. "noatime" seems much less interesting with softupdates
now anyway.
Thanks for the tip.
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- Eurocontrol EEC/TS -=- Ollivier.Robert@eurocontrol.fr
FreeBSD caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr 3.0-CURRENT #5: Tue Apr 22 14:57:00 CEST 1997
roberto@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr:/src/src/sys/compile/CAERDONN2 i386
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 09:29:37 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803021729.KAA15934@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: smp@csn.net (Steve Passe)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:29:16 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, toor@dyson.iquest.net, jak@cetlink.net,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803021654.JAA28772@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> from "Steve Passe" at Mar 2, 98 09:54:58 am
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> > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing
> > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> > > primary or not.
> >
> > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and
> > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc..
> > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad.
>
> I know this probably won't be good news for most, but I don't see SMP being
> in 3.0:
I think if this happens, it would be a good idea to relabel the 3.x
branch to be the 2.3 or 2.x (x>2) branch, and reserve 3.0.
The point of major revision numbers is major revision. I, for one
would not be comfortable taking FreeBSD into the end-of-cycle version
range (4.x+). Down that road lies madness and "FreeBSD II".
> The state it is in now is NOT release quality. I don't think there is much
> finer grained locking to be had without MAJOR changes to the design,
> specifically the slpx() stuff needs to be replaced with critical sections
> protected by a mutex mechanism. I played around with techniques for
> allowing both CPUs into the kernel at the same time with the current
> splx() design but it appears to be a loosing proposition.
I've been working on a fine grained intention mode lock manager with
deadlock avoidance and cycle detection. John Dyson has seen the
whiteboard design for the thing.
I *don't* think the FreeBSD kernel code is amenable to anything less
(such as Djikstra's "Banker's Algorithm") because of the need to hold
state over more than one level of function calls. It's likely that
it would take a serious redesign of the kernel itself to be able to
support a radically different approach, like resource preemption (sorry
RealTime fans). You simply can't back the state far enough out for
it to work.
My research code will unfortunately *not* be baked in time for the
aggressive schedule for 3.0 which has been proposed. If someone else
who can do mathematical programming wants to take up the torch, I
can send my internal design discussons (yes, I document it when I
talk to myself 8-)). You should have at least a working undestanding
of Linear Algebra and Group Theory (math proceeds from Group Theory
to Tensor Calculus to Graph Theory) and/or Clifford Algebra's (from
which you can get geometric soloutions without Tensors). If you know
what "Warshal's Algorithm" and "A Hamiltonian cycle" are, then you
probably qualify.
Unfortunately, the best non-heavy-math soloution is O(N^3) for N locks;
this is simply not good enough for fine grain locking (which will result
in a larger number of locks being needed, the finer the grain).
> My suggestion (assumming no new major push REAL SOON) is to remove the
> SMP support from 3.0 and make a release out of it (when all other things
> are ready). Then continue SMP efforts in 4.0 At the very least the
> experimental things defined in smptests.h need to either be incorporated
> as default (most everything but PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4), or removed
> entirely ie. PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4. These are my above mentioned attempts
> to allow both CPUs in simultaniously. Its ugly code, and will never
> be 'right'.
I think whatever is released should support low granularity SMP, at
the very least. I would be *very* unhappy with having to bump the
version number to 4.0 in the process (it implies too long a time frame,
and it's frankly too large a number to allow the software to appear
trustworthy, IMO. Cv: SVR4).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 09:37:23 1998
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From: Scott Michel <scottm@cs.ucla.edu>
Message-Id: <199803021737.JAA00224@mordred.cs.ucla.edu>
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Really cool feature!
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As of this morning's cvsup (at or about 9:00am, PST), the really
cool current feature is FreeBSD w/o keyboard. On bootstrap, everything
comes up as it should, except the keyboard no longer accepts anything.
I've turned xdm off, but to no avail. The only way out of this is a
hard reset. What would the useful flags be to debug this one?
This is the dmesg from the running kernel -- nothing else has
changed -- same config file for the current cvsup as this one:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright (c) 1992-1998 FreeBSD Inc.
Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993
The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Wed Feb 25 12:03:48 PST 1998
root@mordred.cs.ucla.edu:/usr/src/sys/compile/MORDRED
Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193169 Hz cost 2930 ns
Timecounter "TSC" frequency 99715295 Hz cost 324 ns
CPU: Pentium (99.72-MHz 586-class CPU)
Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5
Features=0x1bf<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8>
real memory = 50331648 (49152K bytes)
avail memory = 46440448 (45352K bytes)
Probing for devices on PCI bus 0:
chip0: <Intel 82437FX PCI cache memory controller> rev 0x02 on pci0.0.0
chip1: <Intel 82371FB PCI to ISA bridge> rev 0x02 on pci0.7.0
vga0: <Matrox MGA 1024SG graphics accelerator> rev 0x03 int a irq 11 on pci0.15.0
Probing for PnP devices:
Probing for devices on the ISA bus:
sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard
sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0>
ed0 at 0x280-0x29f irq 10 maddr 0xcc000 msize 16384 on isa
ed0: address 00:00:c0:86:e3:b7, type SMC8216/SMC8216C (16 bit)
lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa
lpt0: Interrupt-driven port
lp0: TCP/IP capable interface
psm0 at 0x60-0x64 irq 12 on motherboard
psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0
sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa
sio0: type 16550A
sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa
sio1: type 16550A
pcm0 at 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x15 on isa
wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 flags 0xe0ffe0ff on isa
wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): <QUANTUM FIREBALL1080A>, 32-bit, multi-block-8, sleep-hack
wd0: 1039MB (2128896 sectors), 2112 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S
wdc0: unit 1 (wd1): <WDC AC32500H>, 32-bit, multi-block-16, sleep-hack
wd1: 2441MB (4999680 sectors), 4960 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S
wdc1 at 0x170-0x177 irq 15 on isa
fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa
fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold
fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in
npx0 on motherboard
npx0: INT 16 interface
joy0 at 0x201 on isa
joy0: joystick
Intel Pentium F00F detected, installing workaround
WARNING: / was not properly dismounted.
Start pid=2 <pagedaemon>
Start pid=3 <vmdaemon>
Start pid=4 <update>
Config file:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
machine "i386"
ident MORDRED
maxusers 10
config kernel root on wd0
cpu "I586_CPU" # aka Pentium(tm)
options "MAXDSIZ=(256*1024*1024)"
options "DFLDSIZ=(256*1024*1024)"
options "COMPAT_43"
options SYSVSHM
options SYSVSEM
options SYSVMSG
options "MD5"
options DDB
options KTRACE #kernel tracing
options DIAGNOSTIC
options PERFMON
options UCONSOLE
options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor
options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor
options INET #Internet communications protocols
pseudo-device loop
pseudo-device ether #Generic Ethernet
pseudo-device bpfilter 4 #Berkeley packet filter
options MROUTING # Multicast routing
options FFS #Fast filesystem
options NFS #NFS
#options NFS_NOSERVER
options MFS #Memory filesystem
options "CD9660" #ISO 9660 filesystem
options MSDOSFS #MS DOS File System
options PROCFS #Process filesystem
options NSWAPDEV=20
options "CD9660_ROOTDELAY=20"
pseudo-device pty 16 #Pseudo ttys - can go as high as 256
pseudo-device speaker #Play IBM BASIC-style noises out your speaker
pseudo-device gzip #Exec gzipped a.out's
pseudo-device vn #Vnode driver (turns a file into a device)
controller isa0
options BOUNCE_BUFFERS
# The syscons console driver (sco color console compatible) - default.
device sc0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector scintr
options MAXCONS=16 # number of virtual consoles
#options SLOW_VGA # do byte-wide i/o's to TS and GDC regs
device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" iosiz 0x0 flags 0x0 irq 13 vector npxintr
controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 flags 0xe0ffe0ff vector wdintr
disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0
disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1
controller wdc1 at isa? port "IO_WD2" bio irq 15 vector wdintr
options ATAPI #Enable ATAPI support for IDE bus
#options ATAPI_STATIC #Don't do it as an LKM
#device wcd0
controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr
disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0
device lpt0 at isa? port? tty irq 7 vector lptintr
device psm0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" conflicts tty irq 12 vector psmintr
device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" tty irq 4 vector siointr
device sio1 at isa? port "IO_COM2" tty irq 3 vector siointr
device ed0 at isa? port 0x280 net irq 10 iomem 0xcc000 vector edintr
# controller snd0
# device sb0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 vector sbintr
# device sbxvi0 at isa? drq 5
# device sbmidi0 at isa? port 0x300
# device opl0 at isa? port 0x388
controller pnp0
device pcm0 at isa? port? tty irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x0015 vector pcmintr
# options APM_IDLE_CPU # Tell APM to idle rather than halt'ing the cpu
# device apm0 at isa?
# options APM_BROKEN_STATCLOCK
device joy0 at isa? port "IO_GAME"
controller pci0
options CLK_CALIBRATION_LOOP
options "CLK_USE_I8254_CALIBRATION"
options CLK_USE_TSC_CALIBRATION
options NMBCLUSTERS=512
options NBUF=512
options COMPAT_LINUX
options "EXT2FS"
options KBD_MAXRETRY=4
options KBD_MAXWAIT=6
options KBD_RESETDELAY=201
options MSGMNB=2049
options MSGMNI=41
options MSGSEG=2049
options MSGSSZ=16
options MSGTQL=41
options SEMMAP=31
options SEMMNI=11
options SEMMNS=61
options SEMMNU=31
options SEMMSL=61
options SEMOPM=101
options SEMUME=11
options SHOW_BUSYBUFS # List buffers that prevent root unmount
options SHMALL=1025
options "SHMMAX=(SHMMAXPGS*PAGE_SIZE+1)"
options SHMMAXPGS=1025
options SHMMIN=2
options SHMMNI=33
options SHMSEG=9
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 10:46:02 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:45:27 +0200 (EET)
From: Superuser <root@krabi.mbp.ee>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: SMP-GENERIC
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980302204400.24401A-100000@krabi.mbp.ee>
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Hi
I just found out that SMP-GENERIC does not have:
options SYSVSHM
which GENERIC has... are there any problems with SYSVSHM and SMP ?
_____________
Lauri Laupmaa
mauri@mbp.ee
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 11:13:26 1998
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To: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:01:45 +1100."
<34FA4B49.4747FC37@scitec.com.au>
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Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:10:38 -0800
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> Mike Smith wrote:
> > > John S. Dyson wrote:
> > > > It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> > > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> > > > primary or not.
> > >
> > > Has anyone decided what the aout to elf upgrade procedure will be?
> >
> > That's likely to come out of the bruises that the 'early adopters' are
> > going to wear, but I would say that the initial approach will be "set
> > BINFORMAT=elf and rebuild the world".
>
> You might want to be running a kernel that groks ELF with ELF shared
> libraries installed before you do a make world. Otherwise I can see a
> point where you overwrite an a.out program that is needed to complete
> the make world.
The kernel already groks ELF, so that's not an issue.
The buildworld target parks everything in the obj directory before
starting the installation sweep, and it installs in the order:
tools, includes, libraries, stuff
The only real room for a gotcha is when the new make(1) and friends are
installed in the tools pass. This could be comfortably handled by an
ldconfig at the start of the installworld pass that added the libraries
in the obj tree. Taking them out of the cache again is left as an
exercise for the developer (reboot is probably easiest).
> Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both
> executable formats?
Which planet have you been on for the last year or so? Even 2.2 will
run ELF binaries. 8)
> Will the make world build both ELF and a.out
> shared libraries? Or will a.out basically die off?
a.out will be supported with a compat-22 distribution, and the tools
will still support it completely, but I would anticipate it being
killed as quickly as possible.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 11:19:18 1998
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803021910.LAA13112@dingo.cdrom.com>
References: <34FA4B49.4747FC37@scitec.com.au>
<199803021910.LAA13112@dingo.cdrom.com>
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> > You might want to be running a kernel that groks ELF with ELF shared
> > libraries installed before you do a make world. Otherwise I can see a
> > point where you overwrite an a.out program that is needed to complete
> > the make world.
>
> The kernel already groks ELF, so that's not an issue.
Shared ELF libraries with and ld.so is still necessary.
> > Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both
> > executable formats?
>
> Which planet have you been on for the last year or so? Even 2.2 will
> run ELF binaries. 8)
Except for the shared loader, it understands them. We still don't have
one that understands ELF libraries *except* from other OS's.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 11:50:16 1998
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>CTM_MAIL BEGIN src-cur.3271.gz 1 34
OK, who touched the world?
--
Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118
rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 12:02:49 1998
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To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:18:57 MST."
<199803021918.MAA21545@mt.sri.com>
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> > > Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both
> > > executable formats?
> >
> > Which planet have you been on for the last year or so? Even 2.2 will
> > run ELF binaries. 8)
>
> Except for the shared loader, it understands them. We still don't have
> one that understands ELF libraries *except* from other OS's.
Sure, but the shared loader is a feature of the libraries, not the
kernel. If/when we have backwards-shared-ELF support, there'll be a
loader for them.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 12:03:42 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:02:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Andrew Ryder <aryder@bestweb.net>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
"John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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Perl 5.004, gcc 2.7.2.3 (how is 2.8.0?)
---
Andrew Ryder aryder@bestweb.net
BestWeb Support Team support@bestweb.net
"New Yorks Best Internet Service Provider" www.bestweb.net
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 19:20:49 -0800, Amancio Hasty
> <hasty@rah.star-gate.com> wrote:
>
> >Curious for what do you need 3.0 current?
>
> SMP and new PPPD 2.3.1. Reportedly better VM performance will be nice
> to have too.
>
> --
> Browser war over, Mozilla now free.
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 12:25:52 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>,
John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803021959.LAA13358@dingo.cdrom.com>
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<199803021959.LAA13358@dingo.cdrom.com>
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> > > > Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both
> > > > executable formats?
> > >
> > > Which planet have you been on for the last year or so? Even 2.2 will
> > > run ELF binaries. 8)
> >
> > Except for the shared loader, it understands them. We still don't have
> > one that understands ELF libraries *except* from other OS's.
>
> Sure, but the shared loader is a feature of the libraries, not the
> kernel. If/when we have backwards-shared-ELF support, there'll be a
> loader for them.
True, but we can build shared libraries/binaries now, and we don't (yet)
have a shared loader for them.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 12:35:35 1998
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To: Superuser <root@krabi.mbp.ee>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Gary Palmer" <gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: SMP-GENERIC
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:45:27 +0200."
<Pine.LNX.3.96.980302204400.24401A-100000@krabi.mbp.ee>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:35:00 -0500
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Superuser wrote in message ID
<Pine.LNX.3.96.980302204400.24401A-100000@krabi.mbp.ee>:
> I just found out that SMP-GENERIC does not have:
> options SYSVSHM
> which GENERIC has... are there any problems with SYSVSHM and SMP ?
I'm running that at home and haven't had any problems attributable to
it so far.
Gary
--
Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member
FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:18:44 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:18:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Alok K. Dhir" <adhir@worldbank.org>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Luigi's sound driver...
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...fails on -current supped/made as of March 2, 1998 @ 4pm. Any programs
that try to use sound lock up the entire syste, requiring a hard reset.
The driver was working fine on the same system made as of mid February.
I'm guessing the latest VM changes (last couple of days) probably threw
something out of whack.
Al
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:23:10 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:22:35 -0800 (PST)
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From: Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
To: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <9803021656.AA17790@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> (message from
Jean-Marc Zucconi on Mon, 2 Mar 98 17:56:19 +0100)
Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current
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gdb works.
Since my last e-mail, I did:
cvsup current-supfile
make -j4 world
cd /sys/i386/conf
config KERNEL-SMP # my config file (SMP kernel)
cd ../../compile/KERNEL-SMP
make clean
make depend
make
make install
shutdown -r now
<create hello.c>
cc -g hello.c -o hello
gdb hello
b main
r
s
s
c
quit
and, everything worked.
Did you do all these steps?
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:34:09 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:33:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "Alok K. Dhir" <adhir@worldbank.org>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Luigi's sound driver...
In-Reply-To: <A749CCA065B01A6B852565BB007552EB.00747C9A852565BB@worldbank.org>
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I should have provided more info. This is on a Dell Workstation 400 with
two 300Mhz PIIs, and 246Mb of RAM. My kernel config file follows the
quoted message...
Thx
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 adhir@worldbank.org wrote:
> ...fails on -current supped/made as of March 2, 1998 @ 4pm. Any programs
> that try to use sound lock up the entire syste, requiring a hard reset.
>
> The driver was working fine on the same system made as of mid February.
> I'm guessing the latest VM changes (last couple of days) probably threw
> something out of whack.
>
> Al
>
#
# LINT -- config file for checking all the sources, tries to pull in
# as much of the source tree as it can.
#
# $Id: LINT,v 1.396 1998/01/26 06:33:48 julian Exp $
#
# NB: You probably don't want to try running a kernel built from this
# file. Instead, you should start from GENERIC, and add options from
# this file as required.
#
#
# This directive is mandatory; it defines the architecture to be
# configured for; in this case, the 386 family based IBM-PC and
# compatibles.
#
machine "i386"
#
# This is the ``identification'' of the kernel. Usually this should
# be the same as the name of your kernel.
#
ident SHADOW
#
# The `maxusers' parameter controls the static sizing of a number of
# internal system tables by a complicated formula defined in param.c.
#
maxusers 64
#
# Certain applications can grow to be larger than the 128M limit
# that FreeBSD initially imposes. Below are some options to
# allow that limit to grow to 256MB, and can be increased further
# with changing the parameters. MAXDSIZ is the maximum that the
# limit can be set to, and the DFLDSIZ is the default value for
# the limit. You might want to set the default lower than the
# max, and explicitly set the maximum with a shell command for processes
# that regularly exceed the limit like INND.
#
options "MAXDSIZ=(256*1024*1024)"
options "DFLDSIZ=(256*1024*1024)"
# When this is set, be extra conservative in various parts of the kernel
# and choose functionality over speed (on the widest variety of systems).
#options FAILSAFE
# This allows you to actually store this configuration file into
# the kernel binary itself, where it may be later read by saying:
# strings /kernel | grep ^___ | sed -e 's/^___//' > MYKERNEL
#
options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel
#
# This directive defines a number of things:
# - The compiled kernel is to be called `kernel'
# - The root filesystem might be on partition wd0a
# - Crash dumps will be written to wd0b, if possible. Specifying the
# dump device here is not recommended. Use dumpon(8).
#
config kernel root on sd0
#####################################################################
# SMP OPTIONS:
#
# SMP enables building of a Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel.
# APIC_IO enables the use of the IO APIC for Symmetric I/O.
# NCPU sets the number of CPUs, defaults to 2.
# NBUS sets the number of busses, defaults to 4.
# NAPIC sets the number of IO APICs on the motherboard, defaults to 1.
# NINTR sets the total number of INTs provided by the motherboard.
#
# Notes:
#
# An SMP kernel will ONLY run on an Intel MP spec. qualified motherboard.
#
# Be sure to disable 'cpu "I386_CPU"' && 'cpu "I486_CPU"' for SMP kernels.
#
# Check the 'Rogue SMP hardware' section to see if additional options
# are required by your hardware.
#
# Mandatory:
options SMP # Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel
options APIC_IO # Symmetric (APIC) I/O
# Optional (built-in defaults will work in most cases):
options NCPU=2 # number of CPUs
options NBUS=3 # number of busses
options NAPIC=1 # number of IO APICs
options NINTR=37 # number of INTs
#
# Rogue SMP hardware:
#
# Bridged PCI cards:
#
# The MP tables of most of the current generation MP motherboards
# do NOT properly support bridged PCI cards. To use one of these
# cards you should refer to ???
#####################################################################
# CPU OPTIONS
#
# You must specify at least one CPU (the one you intend to run on);
# deleting the specification for CPUs you don't need to use may make
# parts of the system run faster. This is especially true removing
# I386_CPU.
#
#cpu "I386_CPU"
#cpu "I486_CPU"
cpu "I586_CPU" # aka Pentium(tm)
cpu "I686_CPU" # aka Pentium Pro(tm)
#
#
# NO_F00F_HACK disables the hack that prevents Pentiums (and ONLY
# Pentiums) from locking up when a LOCK CMPXCHG8B instruction is
# executed. This should be included for ALL kernels that won't run
# on a Pentium.
options "NO_F00F_HACK"
#
# A math emulator is mandatory if you wish to run on hardware which
# does not have a floating-point processor. Pick either the original,
# bogus (but freely-distributable) math emulator, or a much more
# fully-featured but GPL-licensed emulator taken from Linux.
#
#options MATH_EMULATE #Support for x87 emulation
# Don't enable both of these in a real config.
#options GPL_MATH_EMULATE #Support for x87 emulation via
#new math emulator
#####################################################################
# COMPATIBILITY OPTIONS
#
# Implement system calls compatible with 4.3BSD and older versions of
# FreeBSD. You probably do NOT want to remove this as much current code
# still relies on the 4.3 emulation.
#
options "COMPAT_43"
#
# Allow user-mode programs to manipulate their local descriptor tables.
# This option is required for the WINE Windows(tm) emulator, and is
# not used by anything else (that we know of).
#
options USER_LDT #allow user-level control of i386 ldt
#
# These three options provide support for System V Interface
# Definition-style interprocess communication, in the form of shared
# memory, semaphores, and message queues, respectively.
#
options SYSVSHM
options SYSVSEM
options SYSVMSG
#
# This option includes a MD5 routine in the kernel, this is used for
# various authentication and privacy uses.
#
options "MD5"
#
# Allow processes to switch to vm86 mode, as well as enabling direct
# user-mode access to the I/O port space. This option is necessary for
# the doscmd emulator to run.
#
options "VM86"
#####################################################################
# DEBUGGING OPTIONS
#
# Enable the kernel debugger.
#
#options DDB
#
# Don't drop into DDB for a panic. Intended for unattended operation
# where you may want to drop to DDB from the console, but still want
# the machine to recover from a panic
#
#options DDB_UNATTENDED
#
# If using GDB remote mode to debug the kernel, there's a non-standard
# extension to the remote protocol that can be used to use the serial
# port as both the debugging port and the system console. It's non-
# standard and you're on your own if you enable it. See also the
# "remotechat" variables in the FreeBSD specific version of gdb.
#
#options GDB_REMOTE_CHAT
#
# KTRACE enables the system-call tracing facility ktrace(2).
#
options KTRACE #kernel tracing
#
# The DIAGNOSTIC option is used in a number of source files to enable
# extra sanity checking of internal structures. This support is not
# enabled by default because of the extra time it would take to check
# for these conditions, which can only occur as a result of
# programming errors.
#
#options DIAGNOSTIC
#
# PERFMON causes the driver for Pentium/Pentium Pro performance counters
# to be compiled. See perfmon(4) for more information.
#
options PERFMON
# XXX - this doesn't belong here.
# Allow ordinary users to take the console - this is useful for X.
options UCONSOLE
# XXX - this doesn't belong here either
options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor
#options USERCONFIG_BOOT #imply -c and parse info area
options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor
#####################################################################
# NETWORKING OPTIONS
#
# Protocol families:
# Only the INET (Internet) family is officially supported in FreeBSD.
# Source code for the NS (Xerox Network Service) is provided for amusement
# value.
#
options INET #Internet communications protocols
options IPX #IPX/SPX communications protocols
#options IPXIP #IPX in IP encapsulation (not available)
#options IPTUNNEL #IP in IPX encapsulation (not available)
#options NETATALK #Appletalk communications protocols
# Network interfaces:
# The `loop' pseudo-device is MANDATORY when networking is enabled.
# The `ether' pseudo-device provides generic code to handle
# Ethernets; it is MANDATORY when a Ethernet device driver is
# configured.
# The 'fddi' pseudo-device provides generic code to support FDDI.
# The `sppp' pseudo-device serves a similar role for certain types
# of synchronous PPP links (like `cx', `ar').
# The `sl' pseudo-device implements the Serial Line IP (SLIP) service.
# The `ppp' pseudo-device implements the Point-to-Point Protocol.
# The `bpfilter' pseudo-device enables the Berkeley Packet Filter. Be
# aware of the legal and administrative consequences of enabling this
# option. The number of devices determines the maximum number of
# simultaneous BPF clients programs runnable.
# The `disc' pseudo-device implements a minimal network interface,
# which throws away all packets sent and never receives any. It is
# included for testing purposes.
# The `tun' pseudo-device implements the User Process PPP (iijppp)
#
# The PPP_BSDCOMP option enables support for compress(1) style entire
# packet compression, the PPP_DEFLATE is for zlib/gzip style compression.
# PPP_FILTER enables code for filtering the ppp data stream and selecting
# events for resetting the demand dial activity timer - requires bpfilter.
# See pppd(8) for more details.
#
pseudo-device ether #Generic Ethernet
#pseudo-device fddi #Generic FDDI
pseudo-device sppp #Generic Synchronous PPP
pseudo-device loop #Network loopback device
pseudo-device bpfilter 4 #Berkeley packet filter
pseudo-device disc #Discard device
#pseudo-device tun 1 #Tunnel driver (user process ppp(8))
pseudo-device sl 2 #Serial Line IP
pseudo-device ppp 2 #Point-to-point protocol
options PPP_BSDCOMP #PPP BSD-compress support
options PPP_DEFLATE #PPP zlib/deflate/gzip support
options PPP_FILTER #enable bpf filtering (needs bpfilter)
#
# Internet family options:
#
# TCP_COMPAT_42 causes the TCP code to emulate certain bugs present in
# 4.2BSD. This option should not be used unless you have a 4.2BSD
# machine and TCP connections fail.
#
# MROUTING enables the kernel multicast packet forwarder, which works
# with mrouted(8).
#
# IPFIREWALL enables support for IP firewall construction, in
# conjunction with the `ipfw' program. IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE sends
# logged packets to the system logger. IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE_LIMIT
# limits the number of times a matching entry can be logged.
#
# WARNING: IPFIREWALL defaults to a policy of "deny ip from any to any"
# and if you do not add other rules during startup to allow access,
# YOU WILL LOCK YOURSELF OUT. It is suggested that you set firewall=open
# in /etc/rc.conf when first enabling this feature, then refining the
# firewall rules in /etc/rc.firewall after you've tested that the new kernel
# feature works properly.
#
# IPFIREWALL_DEFAULT_TO_ACCEPT causes the default rule (at boot) to
# allow everything. Use with care, if a cracker can crash your
# firewall machine, they can get to your protected machines. However,
# if you are using it as an as-needed filter for specific problems as
# they arise, then this may be for you. Changing the default to 'allow'
# means that you won't get stuck if the kernel and /sbin/ipfw binary get
# out of sync.
#
# IPDIVERT enables the divert IP sockets, used by ``ipfw divert''
#
# TCPDEBUG is undocumented.
#
#options "TCP_COMPAT_42" #emulate 4.2BSD TCP bugs
#options MROUTING # Multicast routing
#options IPFIREWALL #firewall
#options IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE #print information about
# dropped packets
#options "IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE_LIMIT=100" #limit verbosity
#options IPFIREWALL_DEFAULT_TO_ACCEPT #allow everything by default
#options IPDIVERT #divert sockets
#options TCPDEBUG
#####################################################################
# FILESYSTEM OPTIONS
#
# Only the root, /usr, and /tmp filesystems need be statically
# compiled; everything else will be automatically loaded at mount
# time. (Exception: the UFS family---FFS, MFS, and LFS---cannot
# currently be demand-loaded.) Some people still prefer to statically
# compile other filesystems as well.
#
# NB: The LFS, PORTAL, and UNION filesystems are known to be buggy,
# and WILL panic your system if you attempt to do anything with them.
# They are included here as an incentive for some enterprising soul to
# sit down and fix them.
#
# One of these is mandatory:
options FFS #Fast filesystem
options NFS #Network File System
# The rest are optional:
# options NFS_NOSERVER #Disable the NFS-server code.
options "CD9660" #ISO 9660 filesystem
options FDESC #File descriptor filesystem
options KERNFS #Kernel filesystem
#options LFS #Log filesystem
options MFS #Memory File System
options MSDOSFS #MS DOS File System
#options NULLFS #NULL filesystem
#options PORTAL #Portal filesystem
options PROCFS #Process filesystem
#options UMAPFS #UID map filesystem
#options UNION #Union filesystem
options "CD9660_ROOT" #CD-ROM usable as root device
options FFS_ROOT #FFS usable as root device
#options LFS_ROOT #LFS usable as root device
options NFS_ROOT #NFS usable as root device
# This DEVFS is experimental but seems to work
#options DEVFS #devices filesystem
# Make space in the kernel for a MFS root filesystem. Define to the number
# of kilobytes to reserve for the filesystem.
#options MFS_ROOT=10
# Allow the MFS_ROOT code to load the MFS image from floppy if it is missing.
#options MFS_AUTOLOAD
# Allow this many swap-devices.
options NSWAPDEV=5
# Disk quotas are supported when this option is enabled. If you
# change the value of this option, you must do a `make clean' in your
# kernel compile directory in order to get a working kernel.
#
#options QUOTA #enable disk quotas
# Add more checking code to various filesystems
#options NULLFS_DIAGNOSTIC
#options KERNFS_DIAGNOSTIC
#options UMAPFS_DIAGNOSTIC
#options UNION_DIAGNOSTIC
# In particular multi-session CD-Rs might require a huge amount of
# time in order to "settle". If we are about mounting them as the
# root f/s, we gotta wait a little.
#
# The number is supposed to be in seconds.
#options "CD9660_ROOTDELAY=20"
# Add some error checking code to the null_bypass routine
# in the NULL filesystem
##options SAFETY
#####################################################################
# SCSI DEVICES
# SCSI DEVICE CONFIGURATION
# The SCSI subsystem consists of the `base' SCSI code, a number of
# high-level SCSI device `type' drivers, and the low-level host-adapter
# device drivers. The host adapters are listed in the ISA and PCI
# device configuration sections below.
#
# Beginning with FreeBSD 2.0.5 you can wire down your SCSI devices so
# that a given bus, target, and LUN always come on line as the same
# device unit. In earlier versions the unit numbers were assigned
# in the order that the devices were probed on the SCSI bus. This
# means that if you removed a disk drive, you may have had to rewrite
# your /etc/fstab file, and also that you had to be careful when adding
# a new disk as it may have been probed earlier and moved your device
# configuration around.
# This old behavior is maintained as the default behavior. The unit
# assignment begins with the first non-wired down unit for a device
# type. For example, if you wire a disk as "sd3" then the first
# non-wired disk will be assigned sd4.
# The syntax for wiring down devices is:
# controller scbus0 at ahc0 # Single bus device
# controller scbus1 at ahc1 bus 0 # Single bus device
# controller scbus3 at ahc2 bus 0 # Twin bus device
# controller scbus2 at ahc2 bus 1 # Twin bus device
# disk sd0 at scbus0 target 0 unit 0
# disk sd1 at scbus3 target 1
# disk sd2 at scbus2 target 3
# tape st1 at scbus1 target 6
# device cd0 at scbus?
# "units" (SCSI logical unit number) that are not specified are
# treated as if specified as LUN 0.
# All SCSI devices allocate as many units as are required.
# The "unknown" device (uk? in pre-2.0.5) is now part of the base SCSI
# configuration and doesn't have to be explicitly configured.
controller scbus0 #base SCSI code
device ch0 #SCSI media changers
device sd0 #SCSI disks
device st0 #SCSI tapes
device cd0 #SCSI CD-ROMs
device od0 #SCSI optical disk
# The previous devices (ch, sd, st, cd) are recognized by config.
# config doesn't (and shouldn't) know about these newer ones,
# so we have to specify that they are on a SCSI bus with the "at scbus?"
# clause.
device worm0 at scbus? # SCSI worm
#device pt0 at scbus? # SCSI processor type
#device sctarg0 at scbus? # SCSI target
# SCSI OPTIONS:
# SCSIDEBUG: When defined enables debugging macros
# NO_SCSI_SENSE: When defined disables sense descriptions (about 4k)
# SCSI_REPORT_GEOMETRY: Always report disk geometry at boot up instead
# of only when booting verbosely.
#options SCSIDEBUG
#options NO_SCSI_SENSE
options SCSI_REPORT_GEOMETRY
# Options for the `od' optical disk driver:
#
# If drive returns sense key as 0x02 with vendor specific additional
# sense code (ASC) and additional sense code qualifier (ASCQ), or
# illegal ASC and ASCQ. This cause an error (NOT READY) and retrying.
# To suppress this, use the following option.
#
#options OD_BOGUS_NOT_READY
#
# For an automatic spindown, try this. Again, preferably as an
# option in your config file.
# WARNING! Use at your own risk. Joerg's ancient SONY SMO drive
# groks it fine, while Shunsuke's Fujitsu chokes on it and times
# out.
#
#options OD_AUTO_TURNOFF
#####################################################################
# MISCELLANEOUS DEVICES AND OPTIONS
# The `pty' device usually turns out to be ``effectively mandatory'',
# as it is required for `telnetd', `rlogind', `screen', `emacs', and
# `xterm', among others.
pseudo-device pty 64 #Pseudo ttys - can go as high as 256
pseudo-device speaker #Play IBM BASIC-style noises out your speaker
pseudo-device gzip #Exec gzipped a.out's
pseudo-device vn #Vnode driver (turns a file into a device)
pseudo-device snp 3 #Snoop device - to look at pty/vty/etc..
pseudo-device ccd 4 #Concatenated disk driver
# These are only for watching for bitrot in old tty code.
# broken
#pseudo-device tb
# These are only for watching for bitrot in old SCSI code.
#pseudo-device su #scsi user
#pseudo-device ssc #super scsi
#####################################################################
# HARDWARE DEVICE CONFIGURATION
# ISA and EISA devices:
# EISA support is available for some device, so they can be auto-probed.
# Micro Channel is not supported at all.
#
# Mandatory ISA devices: isa, npx
#
controller isa0
#
# Options for `isa':
#
# AUTO_EOI_1 enables the `automatic EOI' feature for the master 8259A
# interrupt controller. This saves about 0.7-1.25 usec for each interrupt.
# This option breaks suspend/resume on some portables.
#
# AUTO_EOI_2 enables the `automatic EOI' feature for the slave 8259A
# interrupt controller. This saves about 0.7-1.25 usec for each interrupt.
# Automatic EOI is documented not to work for for the slave with the
# original i8259A, but it works for some clones and some integrated
# versions.
#
# BOUNCE_BUFFERS provides support for ISA DMA on machines with more
# than 16 megabytes of memory. It doesn't hurt on other machines.
# Some broken EISA and VLB hardware may need this, too.
#
# MAXMEM specifies the amount of RAM on the machine; if this is not
# specified, FreeBSD will first read the amount of memory from the CMOS
# RAM, so the amount of memory will initially be limited to 64MB or 16MB
# depending on the BIOS. If the BIOS reports 64MB, a memory probe will
# then attempt to detect the installed amount of RAM. If this probe
# fails to detect >64MB RAM you will have to use the MAXMEM option.
# The amount is in kilobytes, so for a machine with 128MB of RAM, it would
# be 131072 (128 * 1024).
#
# TUNE_1542 enables the automatic ISA bus speed selection for the
# Adaptec 1542 boards. Does not work for all boards, use it with caution.
#
# BROKEN_KEYBOARD_RESET disables the use of the keyboard controller to
# reset the CPU for reboot. This is needed on some systems with broken
# keyboard controllers.
#
# PAS_JOYSTICK_ENABLE enables the gameport on the ProAudio Spectrum
options "AUTO_EOI_1"
#options "AUTO_EOI_2"
options BOUNCE_BUFFERS
#options "MAXMEM=(128*1024)"
#options "TUNE_1542"
#options BROKEN_KEYBOARD_RESET
#options PAS_JOYSTICK_ENABLE
# Enable support for the kernel PLL to use an external PPS signal,
# under supervision of [x]ntpd(8)
# More info in ftp://ftp.udel.edu/pub/ntp/kernel.tar.Z
#options PPS_SYNC
# Enable PnP support in the kernel. This allows you to automaticly
# attach to PnP cards for drivers that support it and allows you to
# configure cards from USERCONFIG. See pnp(4) for more info.
controller pnp0
# The syscons console driver (sco color console compatible) - default.
device sc0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector scintr
options MAXCONS=12 # number of virtual consoles
#options SLOW_VGA # do byte-wide i/o's to TS and GDC regs
#options "STD8X16FONT" # Compile font in
#makeoptions "STD8X16FONT"="cp850"
options SC_HISTORY_SIZE=500 # number of history buffer lines
#
# `flags' for sc0:
# 0x01 Use a 'visual' bell
# 0x02 Use a 'blink' cursor
# 0x04 Use a 'underline' cursor
# 0x06 Use a 'blinking underline' (destructive) cursor
# 0x08 Force detection of keyboard, else we always assume a keyboard
# 0x10 Old-style (XT) keyboard support, useful for older ThinkPads
# 0x20 Don't reset keyboard, useful for some newer ThinkPads
#
# The Numeric Processing eXtension driver. This should be configured if
# your machine has a math co-processor, unless the coprocessor is very
# buggy. If it is not configured then you *must* configure math emulation
# (see above). If both npx0 and emulation are configured, then only npx0
# is used (provided it works).
device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" iosiz 0x0 flags 0x0 irq 13 vector npxintr
#
# `flags' for npx0:
# 0x01 don't use the npx registers to optimize bcopy
# 0x02 don't use the npx registers to optimize bzero
# 0x04 don't use the npx registers to optimize copyin or copyout.
# The npx registers are normally used to optimize copying and zeroing when
# all of the following conditions are satisfied:
# "I586_CPU" is an option
# the cpu is an i586 (perhaps not a Pentium)
# the probe for npx0 succeeds
# INT 16 exception handling works.
# Then copying and zeroing using the npx registers is normally 30-100% faster.
# The flags can be used to control cases where it doesn't work or is slower.
# Setting them at boot time using userconfig works right (the optimizations
# are not used until later in the bootstrap when npx0 is attached).
#
#
# `iosiz' for npx0:
# This can be used instead of the MAXMEM option to set the memory size. If
# it is nonzero, then it overrides both the MAXMEM option and the memory
# size reported by the BIOS. Setting it at boot time using userconfig takes
# effect on the next reboot after the change has been recorded in the kernel
# binary (the size is used early in the boot before userconfig has a chance
# to change it).
#
#
# Optional ISA and EISA devices:
#
#
# SCSI host adapters: `aha', `aic', `bt', `nca'
#
# aha: Adaptec 154x
# ahc: Adaptec 274x/284x/294x
# aic: Adaptec 152x and sound cards using the Adaptec AIC-6360 (slow!)
# bt: Most Buslogic controllers
# nca: ProAudioSpectrum cards using the NCR 5380 or Trantor T130
# uha: UltraStore 14F and 34F
# sea: Seagate ST01/02 8 bit controller (slow!)
# wds: Western Digital WD7000 controller (no scatter/gather!).
#
# Note that the order is important in order for Buslogic cards to be
# probed correctly.
#
controller aic0 at isa? port 0x340 bio irq 11 vector aicintr
# ST-506, ESDI, and IDE hard disks: `wdc' and `wd'
#
# The flags fields are used to enable the multi-sector I/O and
# the 32BIT I/O modes. The flags may be used in either the controller
# definition or in the individual disk definitions. The controller
# definition is supported for the boot configuration stuff.
#
# Each drive has a 16 bit flags value defined:
# The low 8 bits are the maximum value for the multi-sector I/O,
# where 0xff defaults to the maximum that the drive can handle.
# The high bit of the 16 bit flags (0x8000) allows probing for
# 32 bit transfers. Bit 14 (0x4000) enables a hack to wake
# up powered-down laptop drives. Bit 13 (0x2000) allows
# probing for PCI IDE DMA controllers, such as Intel's PIIX
# south bridges. See the wd.4 man page.
#
# The flags field for the drives can be specified in the controller
# specification with the low 16 bits for drive 0, and the high 16 bits
# for drive 1.
# e.g.:
#controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 flags 0x00ff8004 vector wdintr
#
# specifies that drive 0 will be allowed to probe for 32 bit transfers and
# a maximum multi-sector transfer of 4 sectors, and drive 1 will not be
# allowed to probe for 32 bit transfers, but will allow multi-sector
# transfers up to the maximum that the drive supports.
#
# If you are using a PCI controller that is not running in compatibility
# mode (for example, it is a 2nd IDE PCI interface), then use config line(s)
# such as:
#
#controller wdc2 at isa? port "0" bio irq ? flags 0xa0ffa0ff vector wdintr
#disk wd4 at wdc2 drive 0
#disk wd5 at wdc2 drive 1
#
#controller wdc3 at isa? port "0" bio irq ? flags 0xa0ffa0ff vector wdintr
#disk wd6 at wdc3 drive 0
#disk wd7 at wdc3 drive 1
#
# Note that the above config would be useful for a Promise card, when used
# on a MB that already has a PIIX controller. Note the bogus irq and port
# entries. These are automatically filled in by the IDE/PCI support.
#
controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 vector wdintr
disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0
disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1
controller wdc1 at isa? port "IO_WD2" bio irq 15 vector wdintr
disk wd2 at wdc1 drive 0
disk wd3 at wdc1 drive 1
#
# Options for `wdc':
#
# CMD640 enables serializing access to primary and secondary channel
# of the CMD640B IDE Chip. The serializing will only take place
# if this option is set *and* the chip is probed by the pci-system.
#
#options "CMD640" #Enable work around for CMD640 h/w bug
#
# ATAPI enables the support for ATAPI-compatible IDE devices
#
options ATAPI #Enable ATAPI support for IDE bus
options ATAPI_STATIC #Don't do it as an LKM
# IDE CD-ROM driver - requires wdc controller and ATAPI option
device wcd0
# IDE floppy driver - requires wdc controller and ATAPI option
#device wfd0
#
# Standard floppy disk controllers and floppy tapes: `fdc', `fd', and `ft'
#
controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr
#
# FDC_DEBUG enables floppy debugging. Since the debug output is huge, you
# gotta turn it actually on by setting the variable fd_debug with DDB,
# however.
#options FDC_DEBUG
# This option is undocumented on purpose.
#options FDC_PRINT_BOGUS_CHIPTYPE
#
# Activate this line instead of the fdc0 line above if you happen to
# have an Insight floppy tape. Probing them proved to be dangerous
# for people with floppy disks only, so it's "hidden" behind a flag:
#controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio flags 1 irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr
disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0
#disk fd1 at fdc0 drive 1
#tape ft0 at fdc0 drive 2
#
# Other standard PC hardware: `lpt', `mse', `psm', `sio', etc.
#
# lpt: printer port
# lpt specials:
# port can be specified as ?, this will cause the driver to scan
# the BIOS port list;
# the irq and vector clauses may be omitted, this
# will force the port into polling mode.
# mse: Logitech and ATI InPort bus mouse ports
# psm: PS/2 mouse port [note: conflicts with sc0/vt0, thus "conflicts" keywd]
# sio: serial ports (see sio(4))
device lpt0 at isa? port? tty irq 7 vector lptintr
#device lpt1 at isa? port "IO_LPT3" tty irq 5 vector lptintr
#device mse0 at isa? port 0x23c tty irq 5 vector mseintr
device psm0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" conflicts tty irq 12 vector psmintr
#
# `flags' for psm:
# 0x000R set resolution to R (1..4). Some MouseSystems PS/2 mice
# require this value to be 4.
# 0x00N0 set accelaration factor to N (1..15).
# 0x0100 disable synchronization check. This replaces the option
# PSM_CHECKSYNC in previous versions.
#
# Options for psm:
##options PSM_HOOKAPM #hook the APM resume event, useful
#for some laptops
#options PSM_RESETAFTERSUSPEND #reset the device at the resume event
device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" tty flags 0x10 irq 4 vector siointr
device sio1 at isa? port "IO_COM2" tty flags 0x10 irq 3 vector siointr
#device sio2 at isa? port "IO_COM3" tty flags 0x10 irq 4 vector siointr
#
# `flags' for serial drivers that support consoles (only for sio now):
# 0x10 enable console support for this unit. The other console flags
# are ignored unless this is set. Enabling console support does
# not make the unit the preferred console - boot with -h or set
# the 0x20 flag for that. Currently, at most one unit can have
# console support; the first one (in config file order) with
# this flag set is preferred. Setting this flag for sio0 gives
# the old behaviour.
# 0x20 force this unit to be the console (unless there is another
# higher priority console). This replaces the COMCONSOLE option.
# 0x40 reserve this unit for low level console operations. Do not
#
# PnP `flags' (set via userconfig using pnp x flags y)
# 0x1 disable probing of this device. Used to prevent your modem
# from being attached as a PnP modem.
#
# Options for serial drivers that support consoles (only for sio now):
#options BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER #a BREAK on a comconsole goes to
#DDB, if available.
#options CONSPEED=9600 #default speed for serial console (default 9600)
# Options for sio:
#options COM_ESP #code for Hayes ESP
#options COM_MULTIPORT #code for some cards with shared IRQs
#options DSI_SOFT_MODEM #code for DSI Softmodems
#options "EXTRA_SIO=2" #number of extra sio ports to allocate
# Other flags for sio that aren't documented in the man page.
# 0x20000 enable hardware RTS/CTS and larger FIFOs. Only works for
# ST16650A-compatible UARTs.
#
# Audio drivers: `snd', `sb', `pas', `gus', `pca'
#
# snd: Voxware sound support code
# sb: SoundBlaster PCM - SoundBlaster, SB Pro, SB16, ProAudioSpectrum
# css: Crystal Sound System (CSS 423x PnP)
# opl: Yamaha OPL-2 and OPL-3 FM - SB, SB Pro, SB 16, ProAudioSpectrum
# uart: stand-alone 6850 UART for MIDI
# mpu: Roland MPU-401 stand-alone card
#
# Beware! The addresses specified below are also hard-coded in
# i386/isa/sound/sound_config.h. If you change the values here, you
# must also change the values in the include file.
#
# pcm: PCM audio through various sound cards.
#
# This is the work in progress from Luigi Rizzo. This has support for
# CS423x based cards, OPTi931, SB16 PnP, GusPnP. For more information
# about this driver, take a look at sys/i386/isa/snd/README.
#
# The flags of the device tells the device a bit more info about the
# device that normally is obtained through the PnP interface.
# bit 2..0 secondary DMA channel;
# bit 4 set if the board uses two dma channels;
# bit 15..8 board type, overrides autodetection; leave it
# zero if don't know what to put in (and you don't,
# since this is unsupported at the moment...).
#
# This driver will use the new PnP code if it's available.
#
# pca: PCM audio through your PC speaker
#
# The i386/isa/sound/sound.doc has more information.
# Controls all sound devices
#controller snd0
#device sb0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 vector sbintr
#device css0 at isa? port 0x534 irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x08 vector adintr
#device opl0 at isa? port 0x388
#device mpu0 at isa? port 0x330 #irq 6 drq 0
#device uart0 at isa? port 0x330 irq 5 vector "m6850intr"
# Luigi's snd code
device pcm0 at isa ? port? tty irq 7 drq 1 vector pcmintr
# Not controlled by `snd'
device pca0 at isa? port IO_TIMER1 tty
#
# Miscellaneous hardware:
#
# bktr: Bt848 capture boards (http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/HomeAuto/Bt848.html)
#device qcam0 at isa? port "IO_LPT1" tty
# enable tagged command queuing, which is a major performance win on
# devices that support it (and controllers with enough SCB's)
options AHC_TAGENABLE
# enable SCB paging - See the ahc.4 man page
options AHC_SCBPAGING_ENABLE
# The aic7xxx driver will attempt to use memory mapped I/O for all PCI
# controllers that have it configured only if this option is set. Unfortunately,
# this doesn't work on some motherboards, which prevents it from being the
# default.
options AHC_ALLOW_MEMIO
# PCI devices:
#
# The main PCI bus device is `pci'. It provides auto-detection and
# configuration support for all devices on the PCI bus, using either
# configuration mode defined in the PCI specification.
#
# The `ahc' device provides support for the Adaptec 29/3940(U)(W)
# and motherboard based AIC7870/AIC7880 adapters.
#
# The `ncr' device provides support for the NCR 53C810 and 53C825
# self-contained SCSI host adapters.
#
# The `amd' device provides support for the Tekram DC-390 and 390T
# SCSI host adapters, but is expected to work with any AMD 53c974
# PCI SCSI chip and the AMD Ethernet+SCSI Combo chip, after some
# local patches were applied to the sources (that had originally
# been written by Tekram and limited to work with their SCSI cards).
#
# The `de' device provides support for the Digital Equipment DC21040
# self-contained Ethernet adapter.
#
# The `fxp' device provides support for the Intel EtherExpress Pro/100B
# PCI Fast Ethernet adapters.
#
# The `tx' device provides support for the SMC 9432TX cards.
#
# The `vx' device provides support for the 3Com 3C590 and 3C595
# early support
#
# The `fpa' device provides support for the Digital DEFPA PCI FDDI
# adapter. pseudo-device fddi is also needed.
#
# The `meteor' device is a PCI video capture board. It can also have the
# following options:
# options METEOR_ALLOC_PAGES=xxx preallocate kernel pages for data entry
# figure (ROWS*COLUMN*BYTES_PER_PIXEL*FRAME+PAGE_SIZE-1)/PAGE_SIZE
# options METEOR_DEALLOC_PAGES remove all allocated pages on close(2)
# options METEOR_DEALLOC_ABOVE=xxx remove all allocated pages above the
# specified amount. If this value is below the allocated amount no action
# taken
# option METEOR_SYSTEM_DEFAULT={METEOR_PAL|METEOR_NTSC|METEOR_SECAM}, used
# for initialization of fps routine when a signal is not present.
#
# The 'bktr' device is a PCI video capture board. It also has a TV tuner
# on board.
#
controller pci0
controller ahc0
device de0
device fxp0
device vx0
#device bktr0
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:47:07 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:45:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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To: Bob Bishop <rb@gid.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: ctm-mail src-cur.3271.gz 1/34
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Bob Bishop wrote:
> >CTM_MAIL BEGIN src-cur.3271.gz 1 34
>
> OK, who touched the world?
John Polstra brought in the binutils from gcc. This is the ELF stuff,
finally moving forward ... don't discourage him!
>
>
> --
> Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118
> rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
>
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data
chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 |
Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:53:09 1998
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Message-Id: <199803022149.WAA11674@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803020401.XAA04407@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 1, 98 11:01:51 pm"
To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:49:14 +0100 (CET)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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According to John S. Dyson:
> Open Systems Networking said:
> > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> >
> > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing
> > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> > > primary or not.
> >
> > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and
> > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc..
> > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad.
Can't the current model with SMP be smoothed a bit, to be more of a release
material, and we can at least have non-finegrained-locking SMP? I mean,
SMP is the big thing for 3.0, and what if there has to be a lot of frobbing
done before 3.1 comes out to make it finegrained? It's still nice to have
at least the current SMP level available. It DOES help, after all, and even
the fact that it doesn't ignore more CPUs completely might attract more
people to buy SMP machines, and from there we draw new SMP hackers. IMHO.
> I can't imagine having 3.0 ready before the middle of the year. IMO,
> and not necessarily that of the rest -core, I think that the "last quarter"
> is too long.
Probably true. But there seems to be quite a lot in the pipe, and it's
also kinda bad to role a release just before we get a lot of new stuff
because people will see it as out of date before it's released.
One thing I'm thinking about, and haven't seen much about lately is the
new SLICE code and DEVFS code. Shouldn't this be pushed into 3.0 before
the release cycle? That is, as quickly as possible? It seems it would
mean a lot of cleaups, nicer interfaces, and some driver changes.
The driver changes needed might be a good thing to get into 3.0. For
commecrial interested with drivers, etc.
Oh well... I'm rambling as usual. Any comments?
/Mikael
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:56:38 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:53:38 -0600
To: Bob Bishop <rb@gid.co.uk>
From: Richard Wackerbarth <rkw@dataplex.net>
Subject: Re: ctm-mail src-cur.3271.gz 1/34
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At 1:41 PM -0600 3/2/98, Bob Bishop wrote:
>>CTM_MAIL BEGIN src-cur.3271.gz 1 34
>
>OK, who touched the world?
Check the cvs commit logs.
Someone added the ELF binutils.
Richard Wackerbarth
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:15:34 1998
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Message-ID: <19980302171544.21782@scsn.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:15:44 -0500
From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox)
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: MSDOSFS Broken(?)
Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net
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After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST
last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known
to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD.
This seems to characterize the problem:
# ls -l /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 72417 Jan 30 16:22 /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
# file /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
/dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Rich Text Format data, version 1, ANSI
# cat /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
cat: /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Argument list too long
Compiled 'cat' with '-g', then:
>cat> gdb ./cat
GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it
under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details.
GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc...
(gdb) set args /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
(gdb) break raw_cat
Breakpoint 1 at 0x17a8: file /usr/src/bin/cat/cat.c, line 245.
(gdb) r
Starting program: /usr/obj/usr/src/bin/cat/./cat /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
Breakpoint 1, raw_cat (rfd=3) at /usr/src/bin/cat/cat.c:245
245 wfd = fileno(stdout);
(gdb) s
246 if (buf == NULL) {
(gdb)
247 if (fstat(wfd, &sbuf))
(gdb)
249 bsize = MAX(sbuf.st_blksize, 1024);
(gdb)
250 if ((buf = malloc((u_int)bsize)) == NULL)
(gdb)
253 while ((nr = read(rfd, buf, bsize)) > 0)
(gdb)
257 if (nr < 0) {
(gdb)
258 warn("%s", filename);
(gdb)
cat: /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Argument list too long
259 rval = 1;
(gdb)
(gdb) p sbuf
$1 = {st_dev = 8, st_ino = 6023, st_mode = 8592, st_nlink = 1, st_uid = 0, st_gid = 4,
st_rdev = 1284, st_atimespec = {tv_sec = 888876298, tv_nsec = 0}, st_mtimespec = {
tv_sec = 888876298, tv_nsec = 0}, st_ctimespec = {tv_sec = 888876298, tv_nsec = 0},
st_size = 0x0000000000000000, st_blocks = 0x0000000000000000, st_blksize = 65536,
st_flags = 0, st_gen = 483370200, st_lspare = -266130324, st_qspare = {
0x00000005f2c54d00, 0xf01f996800000000}}
(gdb) q
What's wrong with this picture?
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:35:01 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:34:56 +0000
To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
From: Bob Bishop <rb@gid.co.uk>
Subject: Re: ctm-mail src-cur.3271.gz 1/34
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At 9:45 pm +0000 2/3/98, Chuck Robey wrote:
>On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Bob Bishop wrote:
>
>> >CTM_MAIL BEGIN src-cur.3271.gz 1 34
>>
>> OK, who touched the world?
>
>John Polstra brought in the binutils from gcc. This is the ELF stuff,
>finally moving forward ... don't discourage him!
Wouldn't dream of it - excellent news!
--
Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118
rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:50:39 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803022149.WAA11674@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "Mar 2, 98 10:49:14 pm"
To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:50:17 -0500 (EST)
Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Mikael Karpberg said:
> According to John S. Dyson:
> > Open Systems Networking said:
> > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing
> > > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> > > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> > > > primary or not.
> > >
> > > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and
> > > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc..
> > > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad.
>
> Can't the current model with SMP be smoothed a bit, to be more of a release
> material, and we can at least have non-finegrained-locking SMP? I mean,
> SMP is the big thing for 3.0, and what if there has to be a lot of frobbing
> done before 3.1 comes out to make it finegrained? It's still nice to have
> at least the current SMP level available. It DOES help, after all, and even
> the fact that it doesn't ignore more CPUs completely might attract more
> people to buy SMP machines, and from there we draw new SMP hackers. IMHO.
>
To make the kernel have fine-grained locking, it will be approx 6-12 man
mos. These changes need to be made by people who are very knowledgeable about
the entire kernel. These people are in great demand, and that would push 3.0 out
into 1999. I am working on some changes to the kernel that will help SMP
performance significantly, but they don't make our SMP "fine grained." This
is indeed very very difficult work.
>
> Oh well... I'm rambling as usual. Any comments?
>
You *definitely* make very valid points, but 2.2.X is becoming too difficult
to maintain, and people are too tempted to use -current (with negative
consequences.) This is a difficult judgement call, and I don't think the
decisions have been made final.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:52:32 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199803022251.RAA14706@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980302150238.14799A-100000@monet.bestweb.net> from Andrew Ryder at "Mar 2, 98 03:02:58 pm"
To: aryder@bestweb.net (Andrew Ryder)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:51:47 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jak@cetlink.net, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Andrew Ryder said:
>
> Perl 5.004
>
Yes!!! I hope the rest of -core sees this. This would
be very good (or more correctly, not as embarassing as
Perl 4.)
>
>, gcc 2.7.2.3 (how is 2.8.0?)
>
The tools people work on that stuff.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:53:36 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Really cool feature!
In-Reply-To: <199803021737.JAA00224@mordred.cs.ucla.edu> from Scott Michel at "Mar 2, 98 09:37:16 am"
To: scottm@cs.ucla.edu (Scott Michel)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:53:17 -0500 (EST)
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Scott Michel said:
>
> As of this morning's cvsup (at or about 9:00am, PST), the really
> cool current feature is FreeBSD w/o keyboard. On bootstrap, everything
> comes up as it should, except the keyboard no longer accepts anything.
>
Excellent, it improves system throughput by ignoring the nasty keyboard
interrupts :-). This is a really good idea!!! :-)
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:11:35 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803021729.KAA15934@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 2, 98 05:29:16 pm"
To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:11:08 -0500 (EST)
Cc: smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, toor@dyson.iquest.net,
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Terry Lambert said:
> > > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing
> > > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support,
> > > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be
> > > > primary or not.
> > >
> > > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and
> > > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc..
> > > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad.
> >
> > I know this probably won't be good news for most, but I don't see SMP being
> > in 3.0:
>
> I think if this happens, it would be a good idea to relabel the 3.x
> branch to be the 2.3 or 2.x (x>2) branch, and reserve 3.0.
>
We have already discussed this in -core (I was a proponent of 2.5.X),
however now I believe that the right decision (due to lots of factors)
is to call it 3.0.
>
> I think whatever is released should support low granularity SMP, at
> the very least. I would be *very* unhappy with having to bump the
> version number to 4.0 in the process (it implies too long a time frame,
> and it's frankly too large a number to allow the software to appear
> trustworthy, IMO. Cv: SVR4).
>
Well, think of it like this:
3.0 simple SMP.
3.1 much better SMP.
10.0 Terry SMP. :-).
**.0 Terry BSD. :-).
Actually, people, Terry does have really good ideas in this area. I think
that we would profit from a kernel meeting (Terry, DG, me, and others (hopefully
a few of our UK/European/OZ people also) who regularly work on structural issues.)
Even if we don't adopt everything that Terry says, I found his talk to be very
educational. Maybe not worth a trip overseas by itself, but perhaps it might
be partial justification. (Unless we could get Terry to write a document that
is intellegible at less than postdoc reading skills level. :-)).
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:13:15 1998
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To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
cc: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:50:17 EST."
<199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 00:04:28 +0100
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" writes:
>To make the kernel have fine-grained locking, it will be approx 6-12 man
>mos. These changes need to be made by people who are very knowledgeable abou
>t
>the entire kernel. These people are in great demand, and that would push 3.0
> out
>into 1999.
I doubt even that would be possible, unless somebody actually goes and
offers a salary to about 5 or 6 of us heavy-duty people to do just this.
I must say, that I belong to the school where we think that it may not
actually pay off to go that far. I'm pretty sure that we would get
a long way with a much more narrow scope of locks:
* One lock for each device driver. To avoid rewriting the existing
drivers, this could be done entirely in the generic code, with
the few obvious exceptions of pty and other incestous pseudo-drivers.
* One lock for the entire network stack
* One lock per mountpoint
* One lock for "the rest" (the smoking remains of our current giant
lock.
But since this is a pretty likely step on the way, it would be easy
to determine if further performance is derived from going further,
so I'm not standing on my soapbox arguing about this.
>Mikael Karpberg said:
>> Oh well... I'm rambling as usual. Any comments?
You're rambling some perfectly valid points as usual :-)
We're at the point where it would really be nice to be able to go tell
the CEO "off to the bank you go, borrow some money for R&D, you may
get them back in increased revenue later. We'll need $1M over the
year. Small unmarked used notes would be best."
Sponsors most welcome.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:14:20 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803021654.JAA28772@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> from Steve Passe at "Mar 2, 98 09:54:58 am"
To: smp@csn.net (Steve Passe)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:14:04 -0500 (EST)
Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, toor@dyson.iquest.net, jak@cetlink.net,
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Steve Passe said:
>
> My suggestion (assumming no new major push REAL SOON) is to remove the
> SMP support from 3.0 and make a release out of it (when all other things
> are ready). Then continue SMP efforts in 4.0 At the very least the
> experimental things defined in smptests.h need to either be incorporated
> as default (most everything but PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4), or removed
> entirely ie. PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4. These are my above mentioned attempts
> to allow both CPUs in simultaniously. Its ugly code, and will never
> be 'right'.
>
There are people who are getting use out of our "lame" SMP right now. I agree
that the spl method of locking is loosing, and the mutex approach is better.
At least you got us into the SMP world, and it is helping users, so no-one can
really complain!!!
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:18:33 1998
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To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
cc: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:50:17 EST."
<199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net>
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From: Ted Spradley <tsprad@set.spradley.tmi.net>
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> You *definitely* make very valid points, but 2.2.X is becoming too difficult
> to maintain, and people are too tempted to use -current (with negative
> consequences.) This is a difficult judgement call, and I don't think the
> decisions have been made final.
No one has commented on Terry Lambert's suggestion to change the name from 3.0
to 2.3. I suppose that's just meaningless marketing silliness, especially
when your product is free, but I expected to see some comment.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:18:33 1998
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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To: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net
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You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it
will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where
folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had
a fine mbone tunnel .
Have Fun,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:19:02 1998
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From: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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> [John Dyson proposes a TerryNIX Meeting]
>Maybe not worth a trip overseas by itself, but perhaps it might
>be partial justification. (Unless we could get Terry to write a document that
>is intellegible at less than postdoc reading skills level. :-)).
Don't forget to bring your Linear Algebra notes. From the last major
missive I saw, a bit of exposure to differential geometry would help as
well. I've figured out Terry's game, this "Research" he talks about --
he's going to unify Gravity and the BSD Kernel!! It's gonna be called the
GUTT, or "Grand Unified Terryfication Theory".
Thanks for coming out today. I've been cooped up sick in the house too
long. :-)
Brian
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:28:25 1998
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:18:21 PST."
<199803022318.PAA13189@rah.star-gate.com>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it
> will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where
> folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had
> a fine mbone tunnel .
Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone
anymore, if they ever had it in the first place.
The idea is to communicate with people that can't just drive over to
your office, not isolate them.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:31:02 1998
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From: "Alfred Perlstein" <perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu>
To: "Terry Lambert" <tlambert@primenet.com>, "Steve Passe" <smp@csn.net>
Cc: <opsys@mail.webspan.net>, <toor@dyson.iquest.net>, <jak@cetlink.net>,
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? (making an ass out of myself)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:31:41 -0500
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(this is just a wild guess, so laugh as much as you want, but please read)
Maybe a KISS approach to smp? (maybe this is the current approach anyway)
identify several key functions/actions that can NOT be done at the same time
in the kernel.
when a function is called a bitmask is checked against the function's
resource requirement bitmask.
if things are good (the bits aren't set in the mask), the mask is OR'd with
function's mask and we proceed,
if the bits are "used" at the moment process is blocked until the required
bits are available.
the function will then have to remove its resource requirement bits from the
mask on exit.
some general sort of way to migrate a function call from cpu to cpu might be
nessesary if some time period has elapsed because we might have A and B
taking the required bits from C while A and B are called alternatly.
i do agree that for some reason going to 3.0 without SMP sounds kinda bad.
perhaps the most stable stuff could be used and nitpicking the design could
be left for 4.0.
if it isn't too much bother i would love to get a hold of that document
Terry is talking about, i do not have the math prerequisite, but then again
it would be very interesting.
thank you,
-Alfred
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
To: Steve Passe <smp@csn.net>
Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net <opsys@mail.webspan.net>; toor@dyson.iquest.net
<toor@dyson.iquest.net>; jak@cetlink.net <jak@cetlink.net>;
current@FreeBSD.ORG <current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Date: Monday, March 02, 1998 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
>> > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be
missing
>> > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support,
>> > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF
will be
>> > > primary or not.
>> >
>> > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and
>> > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc..
>> > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad.
>>
>> I know this probably won't be good news for most, but I don't see SMP
being
>> in 3.0:
>
>I think if this happens, it would be a good idea to relabel the 3.x
>branch to be the 2.3 or 2.x (x>2) branch, and reserve 3.0.
>
>The point of major revision numbers is major revision. I, for one
>would not be comfortable taking FreeBSD into the end-of-cycle version
>range (4.x+). Down that road lies madness and "FreeBSD II".
>
>
>> The state it is in now is NOT release quality. I don't think there is
much
>> finer grained locking to be had without MAJOR changes to the design,
>> specifically the slpx() stuff needs to be replaced with critical
sections
>> protected by a mutex mechanism. I played around with techniques for
>> allowing both CPUs into the kernel at the same time with the current
>> splx() design but it appears to be a loosing proposition.
>
>I've been working on a fine grained intention mode lock manager with
>deadlock avoidance and cycle detection. John Dyson has seen the
>whiteboard design for the thing.
>
>I *don't* think the FreeBSD kernel code is amenable to anything less
>(such as Djikstra's "Banker's Algorithm") because of the need to hold
>state over more than one level of function calls. It's likely that
>it would take a serious redesign of the kernel itself to be able to
>support a radically different approach, like resource preemption (sorry
>RealTime fans). You simply can't back the state far enough out for
>it to work.
>
>My research code will unfortunately *not* be baked in time for the
>aggressive schedule for 3.0 which has been proposed. If someone else
>who can do mathematical programming wants to take up the torch, I
>can send my internal design discussons (yes, I document it when I
>talk to myself 8-)). You should have at least a working undestanding
>of Linear Algebra and Group Theory (math proceeds from Group Theory
>to Tensor Calculus to Graph Theory) and/or Clifford Algebra's (from
>which you can get geometric soloutions without Tensors). If you know
>what "Warshal's Algorithm" and "A Hamiltonian cycle" are, then you
>probably qualify.
>
>Unfortunately, the best non-heavy-math soloution is O(N^3) for N locks;
>this is simply not good enough for fine grain locking (which will result
>in a larger number of locks being needed, the finer the grain).
>
>
>> My suggestion (assumming no new major push REAL SOON) is to remove the
>> SMP support from 3.0 and make a release out of it (when all other
things
>> are ready). Then continue SMP efforts in 4.0 At the very least the
>> experimental things defined in smptests.h need to either be
incorporated
>> as default (most everything but PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4), or removed
>> entirely ie. PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4. These are my above mentioned
attempts
>> to allow both CPUs in simultaniously. Its ugly code, and will never
>> be 'right'.
>
>I think whatever is released should support low granularity SMP, at
>the very least. I would be *very* unhappy with having to bump the
>version number to 4.0 in the process (it implies too long a time frame,
>and it's frankly too large a number to allow the software to appear
>trustworthy, IMO. Cv: SVR4).
>
>
> Terry Lambert
> terry@lambert.org
>---
>Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
>or previous employers.
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:40:57 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803022340.QAA25836@usr09.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?)
To: dmaddox@scsn.net
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:40:25 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19980302171544.21782@scsn.net> from "Donald J. Maddox" at Mar 2, 98 05:15:44 pm
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> After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST
> last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known
> to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD.
>
> This seems to characterize the problem:
>
> # ls -l /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 72417 Jan 30 16:22 /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
>
> # file /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
> /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Rich Text Format data, version 1, ANSI
>
> # cat /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
> cat: /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Argument list too long
[ ... ]
> What's wrong with this picture?
cat's acting like it did a pattern match, but it didn't?
This looks like a shell globbing error, not an MSDOSFS error.
Note 1: cat does not exit with the error E2BIG.
Note 2: This is not likely to be a VM problem, since directories
can't be mmap'ed.
Are you sure you didn't get bit by the vnode size change (see other
postings today)? If you are using MSDOS as an LKM, recompile it
if you recompiled your kernel.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:41:50 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com>
References: <199803022318.PAA13189@rah.star-gate.com>
<199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com>
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> > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it
> > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where
> > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had
> > a fine mbone tunnel .
>
> Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone
> anymore, if they ever had it in the first place.
No kidding. Our ISP played with it for awhile (for watching NaNOG
meetings), and gave it up. They're now sending people to the meetings,
since it was much cheaper and useful than using the Mbone, which is
useless given the current 'lag' and 'loss' on the net as a whole.
PHK's 40% packet loss to CA with normal traffic would make the MBONE
more than useless. It would simply waste bandwidth with no gain.
That's why people who want the MBONE for research and such want their
own private Internet back again, and are asking for grants and such to
give them their own toy back.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:45:29 1998
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To: Ted Spradley <tsprad@set.spradley.tmi.net>
cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:46:55 CST."
<E0y9ev9-0007Ri-00@set.spradley.tmi.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:44:12 -0800
Message-ID: <3436.888882252@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> No one has commented on Terry Lambert's suggestion to change the name from 3.
0
> to 2.3. I suppose that's just meaningless marketing silliness, especially
> when your product is free, but I expected to see some comment.
I commented on it in a smaller forum. The idea is categorically
rejected on a number of grounds too numerous to go into here. Suffice
it to say that we'll reduce the feature set of 3.0 before we'll invent
another release to go in-between 2.2 and 3.0.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:47:25 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, tlambert@primenet.com,
toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:25:03 PST."
<199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:46:11 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it
> > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where
> > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had
> > a fine mbone tunnel .
>
> Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone
> anymore, if they ever had it in the first place.
>
> The idea is to communicate with people that can't just drive over to
> your office, not isolate them.
Though apropos this, we're supposed to have MBONE at the office now
but nobody has managed to figure out how to get it through the Cisco
router. I've turned all the appropriate options on but still nada. :(
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:48:28 1998
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To: dmaddox@scsn.net
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au
Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:15:44 EST."
<19980302171544.21782@scsn.net>
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Donald J. Maddox wrote:
> After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST
> last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known
> to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD.
Sorry, the fix I sent to Mike yesterday was incomplete, and broke more
than fixed. Try the next one. Beware: I want to sleep. (But I tried
it...)
Dima
--- msdosfs_vnops.c Tue Mar 3 01:59:43 1998
+++ msdosfs_vnops.c Tue Mar 3 02:48:28 1998
@@ -552,7 +552,7 @@ msdosfs_read(ap)
long n;
long on;
daddr_t lbn;
- daddr_t rablock, rablock1;
+ daddr_t rablock;
int rasize;
struct buf *bp;
struct vnode *vp = ap->a_vp;
@@ -602,14 +602,12 @@ msdosfs_read(ap)
#endif
if (vp->v_lastr + 1 == lbn &&
de_cn2off(pmp, rablock) < dep->de_FileSize) {
- rablock1 = de_cn2bn(pmp, rablock);
rasize = pmp->pm_bpcluster;
- error = breadn(vp, de_cn2bn(pmp, lbn),
- pmp->pm_bpcluster, &rablock1, &rasize, 1,
- NOCRED, &bp);
+ error = breadn(vp, lbn, pmp->pm_bpcluster,
+ &rablock, &rasize, 1, NOCRED, &bp);
} else
- error = bread(vp, de_cn2bn(pmp, lbn),
- pmp->pm_bpcluster, NOCRED, &bp);
+ error = bread(vp, lbn, pmp->pm_bpcluster,
+ NOCRED, &bp);
vp->v_lastr = lbn;
}
n = min(n, pmp->pm_bpcluster - bp->b_resid);
@@ -742,9 +740,10 @@ msdosfs_write(ap)
vnode_pager_setsize(vp, dep->de_FileSize);
}
- bn = de_blk(pmp, uio->uio_offset);
+ bn = de_cluster(pmp, uio->uio_offset);
if ((uio->uio_offset & pmp->pm_crbomask) == 0
- && (de_blk(pmp, uio->uio_offset + uio->uio_resid) > de_blk(pmp, uio->uio_offset)
+ && (de_cluster(pmp, uio->uio_offset + uio->uio_resid)
+ > de_cluster(pmp, uio->uio_offset)
|| uio->uio_offset + uio->uio_resid >= dep->de_FileSize)) {
/*
* If either the whole cluster gets written,
@@ -758,9 +757,8 @@ msdosfs_write(ap)
* for the fat table. (see msdosfs_strategy)
*/
if (bp->b_blkno == bp->b_lblkno) {
- error = pcbmap(dep,
- de_bn2cn(pmp, bp->b_lblkno),
- &bp->b_blkno, 0, 0);
+ error = pcbmap(dep, bp->b_lblkno, &bp->b_blkno,
+ 0, 0);
if (error)
bp->b_blkno = -1;
}
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:49:59 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803022349.QAA26345@usr09.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian Handy)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:49:43 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980302151524.23858A-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com> from "Brian Handy" at Mar 2, 98 03:18:51 pm
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> > [John Dyson proposes a TerryNIX Meeting]
I don't think he was proposing one of these; I think he wanted an
architectural meeting, and that I could be the honorary peanut
gallery. 8-) 8-).
> >Maybe not worth a trip overseas by itself, but perhaps it might
> >be partial justification. (Unless we could get Terry to write a
> >document that is intellegible at less than postdoc reading skills
> > level. :-)).
>
> Don't forget to bring your Linear Algebra notes. From the last major
> missive I saw, a bit of exposure to differential geometry would help as
> well.
Well, a familiarity with hammers *does* help if you want to be a
carpenter. 8-).
> I've figured out Terry's game, this "Research" he talks about --
> he's going to unify Gravity and the BSD Kernel!! It's gonna be called the
> GUTT, or "Grand Unified Terryfication Theory".
That's what Agent Mulder was claiming the last time he was at my
trailer in the middle of nowhere with the T3's into it...
> Thanks for coming out today. I've been cooped up sick in the house too
> long. :-)
We couldn't tell. ;^).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:51:25 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803022350.QAA26420@usr09.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:50:43 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, tlambert@primenet.com,
toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net
In-Reply-To: <3468.888882371@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 2, 98 03:46:11 pm
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> Though apropos this, we're supposed to have MBONE at the office now
> but nobody has managed to figure out how to get it through the Cisco
> router. I've turned all the appropriate options on but still nada. :(
You need to turn on the inappropriate options, too.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:57:14 1998
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:50:43 GMT."
<199803022350.QAA26420@usr09.primenet.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:55:22 -0800
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> You need to turn on the inappropriate options, too.
Do tell. You have a list of them for me? :-)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:04:41 1998
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From: Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>
To: tomdean@ix.netcom.com
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803022122.NAA00313@ix.netcom.com> (message from Thomas Dean
on Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:22:35 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current
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>>>>> Thomas Dean writes:
> gdb works.
> Since my last e-mail, I did:
> cvsup current-supfile
> make -j4 world
> cd /sys/i386/conf
> config KERNEL-SMP # my config file (SMP kernel)
> cd ../../compile/KERNEL-SMP
> make clean
> make depend
> make
> make install
> shutdown -r now
> <create hello.c>
> cc -g hello.c -o hello
> gdb hello
> b main
> r
> s
> s
> c
> quit
> and, everything worked.
> Did you do all these steps?
Yes, and sure, gdb works with most of the program I compile. The
problem occurs with only *some* programs. I will try to find the
minimal program crashing gdb.
Jean-Marc
_____________________________________________________________________________
Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex
PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:12:01 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:11:37 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <199803022318.PAA13189@rah.star-gate.com> <199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com> <199803022341.QAA24319@mt.sri.com>
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In-Reply-To: <199803022341.QAA24319@mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 04:41:24PM -0700
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On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 04:41:24PM -0700, Nate Williams wrote:
> > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone
> > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place.
>
> No kidding. Our ISP played with it for awhile (for watching NaNOG
> meetings), and gave it up. They're now sending people to the meetings,
> since it was much cheaper and useful than using the Mbone, which is
> useless given the current 'lag' and 'loss' on the net as a whole.
>
> PHK's 40% packet loss to CA with normal traffic would make the MBONE
> more than useless. It would simply waste bandwidth with no gain.
>
> That's why people who want the MBONE for research and such want their
> own private Internet back again, and are asking for grants and such to
> give them their own toy back.
Yah, the mbone works a whole lot better over the vBNS. :)
--
//Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=-
\\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=-
aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:13:04 1998
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To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
CC: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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John S. Dyson wrote:
> Actually, people, Terry does have really good ideas in this area.
I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say that I'm happy to see
some of the animosity regarding Terry fading on both sides. As one of
those people whose personality sometimes gets in the way of his message,
it's refreshing to see people willing to look past it and get some work
done. Bravo.
> I think
> that we would profit from a kernel meeting (Terry, DG, me, and others (hopefully
> a few of our UK/European/OZ people also) who regularly work on structural issues.)
May I humbly suggest that IRC is your friend? :) Seriously, I don't
think I have to explain the value of communicating in real time, and IRC
is a lot cheaper than airline tickets. We do a lot of stuff over e-mail
(re our network) but it always amazes me how much more we get done in a
real time environment. Video has a lot of advantages, but not everyone
has access to it, and pasting documents into the conversation is often
handy too.
I know y'all have lots of IRC experience represented in the core team,
but it goes without saying that I'd be happy to help anyone interested.
Doug
--
*** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network ***
*** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest
*** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing.
*** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD)
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:15:51 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:16:01 -0500
From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox)
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, dmaddox@scsn.net
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?)
Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net
Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, dmaddox@scsn.net,
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References: <19980302171544.21782@scsn.net> <199803022340.QAA25836@usr09.primenet.com>
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On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:40:25PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST
> > last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known
> > to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD.
> >
> > This seems to characterize the problem:
> >
> > # ls -l /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 72417 Jan 30 16:22 /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
> >
> > # file /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
> > /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Rich Text Format data, version 1, ANSI
> >
> > # cat /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC
> > cat: /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Argument list too long
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > What's wrong with this picture?
>
> cat's acting like it did a pattern match, but it didn't?
>
> This looks like a shell globbing error, not an MSDOSFS error.
>
> Note 1: cat does not exit with the error E2BIG.
Apparently, it did this time :-) Actually the error 7 was being
returned by the read(2) call (see the trace).
>
> Note 2: This is not likely to be a VM problem, since directories
> can't be mmap'ed.
>
> Are you sure you didn't get bit by the vnode size change (see other
> postings today)? If you are using MSDOS as an LKM, recompile it
> if you recompiled your kernel.
Reread the beginning of my message. This is following a complete
'make world', and new kernel.
In any case, it looks like Dmitrij Tejblum is aware of, and has
fixed, the problem. I still haven't tried the patches (I just saw
'em), but I have high hopes ;-)
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:16:57 1998
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From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox)
To: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>, dmaddox@scsn.net
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au
Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?)
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:53:12AM +0300, Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> Donald J. Maddox wrote:
>
> > After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST
> > last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known
> > to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD.
>
> Sorry, the fix I sent to Mike yesterday was incomplete, and broke more
> than fixed. Try the next one. Beware: I want to sleep. (But I tried
> it...)
Thanks, I'll try this immediately :-)
<Patch elided>
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:39:14 1998
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From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox)
To: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>, dmaddox@scsn.net
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au
Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?)
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:53:12AM +0300, Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> Donald J. Maddox wrote:
>
> > After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST
> > last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known
> > to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD.
>
> Sorry, the fix I sent to Mike yesterday was incomplete, and broke more
> than fixed. Try the next one. Beware: I want to sleep. (But I tried
> it...)
>
Just so you know, this patch seems to have fixed the problem
completely :-) Thanks...
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:53:43 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: mbone
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:46:11 PST."
<3468.888882371@time.cdrom.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:53:37 -0700
From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org>
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>>>>> "Jordan" == Jordan K Hubbard <jkh@time.cdrom.com> writes:
Jordan> Though apropos this, we're supposed to have MBONE at the
Jordan> office now but nobody has managed to figure out how to get
Jordan> it through the Cisco router. I've turned all the
Jordan> appropriate options on but still nada. :(
Jordan, I'm sooo disappointed :-)
I had the same problem (but with a different vendors router/firewall).
I solved the problem by replacing said router with our own FreeBSD
based firewall/router.
Of course, there's nothing to talk to on the other side :-( It's
a shame the ISPs are so clueless. UUNET Canada actually charges
*more* for an mbone feed. Rather assinine when you consider that
deploying native DVMRP multicast would *reduce* their backbone
traffic. (With SKIP and VPNs do they really think people aren't
tunneling the mbone through without telling them?)
--lyndon
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:55:56 1998
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From: "Paul Missman" <missmanp@adelphia.net>
To: <current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:54:59 -0500
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From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
Date: Monday, March 02, 1998 7:14 PM
>On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 04:41:24PM -0700, Nate Williams wrote:
>
>> > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone
>> > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place.
>>
>> No kidding. Our ISP played with it for awhile (for watching NaNOG
>> meetings), and gave it up. They're now sending people to the meetings,
>> since it was much cheaper and useful than using the Mbone, which is
>> useless given the current 'lag' and 'loss' on the net as a whole.
>>
>> PHK's 40% packet loss to CA with normal traffic would make the MBONE
>> more than useless. It would simply waste bandwidth with no gain.
>>
>> That's why people who want the MBONE for research and such want their
>> own private Internet back again, and are asking for grants and such to
>> give them their own toy back.
>
>Yah, the mbone works a whole lot better over the vBNS. :)
>
There's a lot to be said for separate fibers, or at least separate WDM
channels
on the backbones to carry all real time traffic. Hopefully, in the not to
distant future
the net will head that way. I imagine IP telephony will get the backbone
folks onto
the track of not mixing real time signals with standard priority traffic.
On the release front: what runs now for SMP seems like a good idea, when it
tests
as stable. Getting lower level locking, while an excellent idea, could take
quite a
while to implement and debug. Trying to put too many things into 3.0 that
aren't close to ready will just make the release date indeterminate. SMP
fully working
seems a good, major goal for 3.0, along with whatever else is ready by
whatever
cutoff date is established for new submissions.
Anything that is going to take too long can go towards 4.0.
Paul Missman
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 17:44:05 1998
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From: Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
To: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
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Send a sample and I will try it.
tom dean
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 17:52:12 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:49:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net,
jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > I think whatever is released should support low granularity SMP, at
> > the very least. I would be *very* unhappy with having to bump the
> > version number to 4.0 in the process (it implies too long a time frame,
> > and it's frankly too large a number to allow the software to appear
> > trustworthy, IMO. Cv: SVR4).
> >
> Well, think of it like this:
> 3.0 simple SMP.
> 3.1 much better SMP.
How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have
they?
It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it
seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes).
> --
> John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
Tom
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 18:19:09 1998
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To: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, smp@csn.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:49:40 PST."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980302174740.6855E-100000@shell.uniserve.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:16:22 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have
> they?
More monkeys?
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 18:52:23 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803030251.TAA09170@usr06.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:51:59 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, mike@smith.net.au, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net
In-Reply-To: <3623.888882922@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 2, 98 03:55:22 pm
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> > You need to turn on the inappropriate options, too.
>
> Do tell. You have a list of them for me? :-)
Archie Cobb would...
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:05:40 1998
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To: dmaddox@scsn.net
cc: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
mike@smith.net.au
Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:39:34 EST."
<19980302193934.25347@scsn.net>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:53:12AM +0300, Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> > Sorry, the fix I sent to Mike yesterday was incomplete, and broke more
> > than fixed. Try the next one. Beware: I want to sleep. (But I tried
> > it...)
> >
>
> Just so you know, this patch seems to have fixed the problem
> completely :-) Thanks...
Committed as soon as I saw this. Thanks for testing it Donald, thanks
for the fix Dima!
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:07:08 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:04:21 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net,
jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Actually, people, Terry does have really good ideas in this area. I
> think that we would profit from a kernel meeting (Terry, DG, me, and
> others (hopefully a few of our UK/European/OZ people also) who regularly
> work on structural issues.) Even if we don't adopt everything that
> Terry says, I found his talk to be very educational. Maybe not worth a
> trip overseas by itself, but perhaps it might be partial justification.
> (Unless we could get Terry to write a document that is intellegible at
> less than postdoc reading skills level. :-)).
I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure
calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db
implementations around for this and other reasons.
Also, have a look at byacc.
Regards,
Mike
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:08:29 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:08:10 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, smp@csn.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980302174740.6855E-100000@shell.uniserve.com> from "Tom" at Mar 2, 98 05:49:40 pm
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> > Well, think of it like this:
> > 3.0 simple SMP.
> > 3.1 much better SMP.
>
> How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have
> they?
I like Jordan's answer, but the truth is, there is very little effective
difference in implementations.
SMP concurrency is a mathematically hard problem. It will need
a lot of serious, mind-numbing detail work to get right. Probably
several people will have their minds numbed in the process, and the
one with the numbest mind will be the implementation chosen because
it will have the best performance.
I *don't* believe that Linux has solved this problem in a general
sense; it requires a lot of academic rigor, and that's in short
supply in volunteer projects (Eric Raymond's paper not to the
contrary).
> It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it
> seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes).
They are. AFAIK, they do not have an affinity model.
Kernel threading is, IMO, not a win at all, unless you combine it
with a cooperative user space scheduler, or implement it using call
contexts so you can keep your quantum, or throw the threads at
a sufficiently large number of CPU's to overcome the non-affinity
L1 cache and relative scheduling losses from competing with other
processes and threads for quantum (this is what makes the context
switch wins go away, but makes your benchmarks look nice on idle
systems).
I think user space threading is vastly misunderstood and vastly
underrated. There is a big difference between call-conversion
based yielding and explicit yielding. Most comparisons I have
seen are based on the idea that the two are equivalent, or that
you can't implement fairness in the case where a bad programmer
fails to write code that doesn't buzz-loop (buzz-looping is a
bad thing in the general sense of codeing in a single process;
it is moreso in the sense of threads). The one real drawback
is that you can not compete as more than 1 process for quantum;
this is a scheduler issue.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:14:40 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:14:18 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, smp@csn.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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> I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure
> calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db
> implementations around for this and other reasons.
>
> Also, have a look at byacc.
Were you thinking of maybe "closure.c" and "warshall.c"? ;-).
The "gprof", "tsort", and "make" code also use cycle detection...
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:29:57 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, mike@smith.net.au,
toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:55:22 PST."
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Just talk to Bill Fenner or who knows maybe one of the Cisco people
can step in.
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:34:04 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:25:59 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net,
jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure
> > calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db
> > implementations around for this and other reasons.
> >
> > Also, have a look at byacc.
>
> Were you thinking of maybe "closure.c" and "warshall.c"? ;-).
>
> The "gprof", "tsort", and "make" code also use cycle detection...
Yes.
Another thing I found interesting about ODI is their distributed cache
manager. The backend is basically dumbed down to just understand pages.
But it keeps track of them and informs clients with cached pages whenever
the server copy is dirtied. The server maintains a return socket for each
client for the "upcall".
Regards,
Mike Hancock
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:02:23 1998
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:25:03 PST."
<199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com>
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Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:27:02 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Mike please I have been on the mbone on and off for the last 7 years and
I have talked to people all over the world.
Amancio
> > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it
> > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where
> > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had
> > a fine mbone tunnel .
>
> Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone
> anymore, if they ever had it in the first place.
>
> The idea is to communicate with people that can't just drive over to
> your office, not isolate them.
> --
> \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
> \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
> \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
> \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
>
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:13:22 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:11:39 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net,
jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Well, think of it like this:
> 3.0 simple SMP.
> 3.1 much better SMP.
7.0 Terry SMP. :-).
**.0 Terry BSD. :-).
9.0 Diehard BSD
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:13:47 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:12:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Mike Newell <mnewell@newell.arlington.va.us>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, tlambert@primenet.com,
toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803030327.TAA14109@rah.star-gate.com>
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Also note that some major carriers provide it as a service; MCI, UUNET,
??? We've used it for forever at NASA HQ; which is _not_ in the bay
area... :-)
Mike
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote:
hasty> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:27:02 -0800
hasty> From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
hasty> To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
hasty> Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
hasty> jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net
hasty> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
hasty>
hasty> Mike please I have been on the mbone on and off for the last 7 years and
hasty> I have talked to people all over the world.
hasty>
hasty> Amancio
hasty>
hasty>
hasty> > > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it
hasty> > > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where
hasty> > > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had
hasty> > > a fine mbone tunnel .
hasty> >
hasty> > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone
hasty> > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place.
hasty> >
hasty> > The idea is to communicate with people that can't just drive over to
hasty> > your office, not isolate them.
hasty> > --
hasty> > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
hasty> > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
hasty> > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
hasty> > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
hasty> >
hasty> >
hasty>
hasty>
hasty>
hasty> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
hasty> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
hasty>
Much obliged,
Mike
+--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
| Mike Newell | The opinions expressed herein |
| Affiliation: | are mine. You can take them or |
| Address: | leave them. Flames to /dev/null. |
+--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
| Mike@Newell.arlington.va.us | http://www.newell.arlington.va.us |
+--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
| "Peace. It's wonderful!" Father Divine. |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:25:39 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:16:26 +0100
From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
References: <19980302172959.38382@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> <199803021704.KAA14250@usr02.primenet.com> <19980302181625.19368@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr>
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According to Ollivier Robert:
> Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I
> have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current
> and running/compiling some programs.
And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-(
> That's too random to get a clear picture.
The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It
doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related.
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:25:44 1998
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, tlambert@primenet.com,
toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:27:02 PST."
<199803030327.TAA14109@rah.star-gate.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:24:30 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> Mike please I have been on the mbone on and off for the last 7 years and
> I have talked to people all over the world.
Also, in Amancio's defense, even if it *did* work only in the Bay Area
it would still be of great value considering how much FreeBSD (and other
CS related) work goes on in this region. :)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:31:47 1998
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From: Archie Cobbs <archie@whistle.com>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803030251.TAA09170@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 3, 98 02:51:59 am"
To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:30:54 -0800 (PST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Terry Lambert writes:
> > > You need to turn on the inappropriate options, too.
> >
> > Do tell. You have a list of them for me? :-)
>
> Archie Cobb would...
^^^^ that's COBBS with an S.. :-)
First, set up an FreeBSD machine on the inside of the Cisco
to be your local end of the MBONE tunnel. Get the IP address of
the remote end from your ISP (you've probably already done that).
You run mrouted on this machine.
Then you need to allow two protocols through the Cisco if you're
firewalling: IP #4 (IPIP) and IP #2 (IGMP). Also, allow anything
with destination 224.0.0.0/4. This should do it.
-Archie
___________________________________________________________________________
Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:40:42 1998
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980302174740.6855E-100000@shell.uniserve.com> from Tom at "Mar 2, 98 05:49:40 pm"
To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:40:21 -0500 (EST)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net,
jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Tom said:
>
> How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have
> they?
>
Not really. When things like SMP are worked on in FreeBSD, things move
pretty quickly. If anything, we are just a big more sporadic due to
less manpower.
>
> It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it
> seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes).
>
So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind
of in progress for a good API interface.)
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:43:32 1998
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To: freebsd-multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG
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Subject: Sound problems with -current
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Multimedia,
I did a cvsup/make world to -CURRENT early this morning (3/2/98) and now
my sound is totally shot. Midis, wave, all of it. When I attempt to play
a midi, nothing. When I try to play an mp3, I get about half a second and
then it skips and stops; the program quits out (splay). I recompiled the
kernel and set up all the PnP stuff just like I had it before and still
nothing. I am using a SB 32 PnP and Voxware.
Thanks a lot!
- Chris Brunner -
- cjb@efn.org -
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:46:51 1998
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From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>, tlambert@primenet.com, smp@csn.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it
> > seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes).
> >
> So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind
> of in progress for a good API interface.)
In 4.4 the user and proc structures were reorganized to better support
threading and with variable-weight depending on what state the thread
needed.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:55:02 1998
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From: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it
> > seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes).
> >
> So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind
> of in progress for a good API interface.)
What about this AIO and database stuff you kept alluding too? Or is it
secret? :)
It is kinda of interesting that Solidtech ported their Solid server to
FreeBSD 2.2, but performance is so-so because of lack of threading.
> --
> John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
>
>
Tom
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 21:21:51 1998
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
Cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, smp@csn.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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> I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure
> calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db
> implementations around for this and other reasons.
Bwah, hah, hah, hah, hah. (Wiping tears from my eyes..)
You've *GOT* to be kidding, right? ObjectStore is fast for a ObjectDB,
but it's *darn* slow as compared to a relational DB, like Oracle and/or
Informix.
(We use their Java engine in our product, but speedy it ain't. And the
locking in ObjectStore is useless at best. At least their payware Java
DB has the ability to have more than one 'session' open on a DB at a
time.)
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 21:43:08 1998
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From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, smp@csn.net,
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Nate Williams wrote:
> > I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure
> > calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db
> > implementations around for this and other reasons.
>
> Bwah, hah, hah, hah, hah. (Wiping tears from my eyes..)
>
> You've *GOT* to be kidding, right? ObjectStore is fast for a ObjectDB,
> but it's *darn* slow as compared to a relational DB, like Oracle and/or
> Informix.
>
> (We use their Java engine in our product, but speedy it ain't. And the
> locking in ObjectStore is useless at best. At least their payware Java
> DB has the ability to have more than one 'session' open on a DB at a
> time.)
You're looking at the PSE which is completely different. You're playing
with a one user toy, a nice toy but still a toy.
ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much
faster.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 21:47:32 1998
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199803030414.FAA22404@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Mbone at WC ? (was Re: 3.0 RELEASE)
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:14:56 +0100 (MET)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
jkh@time.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199803022341.QAA24319@mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Mar 2, 98 04:41:05 pm
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> > > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it
...
> No kidding. Our ISP played with it for awhile (for watching NaNOG
> meetings), and gave it up. They're now sending people to the meetings,
> since it was much cheaper and useful than using the Mbone, which is
> useless given the current 'lag' and 'loss' on the net as a whole.
>
> PHK's 40% packet loss to CA with normal traffic would make the MBONE
> more than useless. It would simply waste bandwidth with no gain.
i agree that mbone loss can be very bad at times or for some areas,
but there are other applications where multicast would still work well.
For example, for some time i have had an fec-based reliable multicast
application (RMDP) which would be an ideal solution to things like
distribution of new freebsd releases etc (to mirrors and/or end-users)
if only the server had multicast.
Jordan's message in this thread makes me thing that this could become a
reality now...
I myself have used this between freefall and here, over unicast UDP,
at times where the loss was so bad that normal ftp would stall all the
time.
see http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/fec.html for details.
Microsoft has also a report (see research.microsoft.com and look for
Jim Gemmel's page) indicating interest in such a technology, and there
are many companies using similar technology.
Cheers
Luigi
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 21:50:11 1998
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From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Michael Hancock wrote:
> You're looking at the PSE which is completely different. You're playing
> with a one user toy, a nice toy but still a toy.
>
> ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much
> faster.
To be fair, ObjectStore probably pulls off pages of the server's harddisk
at about the same performance level as the rdbs, but when you're pulling
most of your pages out a local cache it's pretty hard to lose. Even if
you're programming with Java which is getting faster and faster, but can
still lag behind C++.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 22:01:29 1998
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980302205207.8019B-100000@shell.uniserve.com> from Tom at "Mar 2, 98 08:54:46 pm"
To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:01:13 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Tom said:
>
> On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
>
> > > It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it
> > > seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes).
> > >
> > So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind
> > of in progress for a good API interface.)
>
> What about this AIO and database stuff you kept alluding too? Or is it
> secret? :)
>
AIO is going to be in there (it is actually already there, modulo a few
known bugs.) AIO also needs manpages and a few docs. I think that
most of the system calls are there, and if you just refer to the POSIX.4
specs, it should work okay (except for the signal handling still being
a little wrong.)
>
> It is kinda of interesting that Solidtech ported their Solid server to
> FreeBSD 2.2, but performance is so-so because of lack of threading.
>
That does not surprise me. Oracle is the same way (whoops!!!), because
the current FreeBSD port doesn't use AIO. (The port was done a long time
ago.) It is mostly used in the NC server, and doesn't really need high
perf.
Actually, AIO should help databases alot.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 22:14:29 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net,
Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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On 03-Mar-98 Michael Hancock wrote:
..
> ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much
> faster.
Does it support a true relational model? Purely OO database engine is
heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational.
BTW, having a SQL interpreter is NOT an evidence of a relational model.
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 22:35:10 1998
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From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980302222124.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote:
> > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much
> > faster.
>
> Does it support a true relational model? Purely OO database engine is
> heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational.
I think it's weak in this respect. Yes, it should be faster.
> BTW, having a SQL interpreter is NOT an evidence of a relational model.
I think it has a rudimentary SQL interpreter.
>
> Simon
Regards,
Mike Hancock
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 22:54:35 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On 03-Mar-98 Michael Hancock wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote:
>
>> > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much
>> > faster.
>>
>> Does it support a true relational model? Purely OO database engine is
>> heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational.
>
> I think it's weak in this respect. Yes, it should be faster.
>
>> BTW, having a SQL interpreter is NOT an evidence of a relational model.
>
> I think it has a rudimentary SQL interpreter.
``Ein Hadash Tachat Hashemesh'' - ``Nothing new under the sun...''
We have (finally) come a full cirlcle to Network databases.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 23:19:56 1998
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To: Ted Spradley <tsprad@set.spradley.tmi.net>
cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:46:55 CST."
<E0y9ev9-0007Ri-00@set.spradley.tmi.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:08:28 +0100
Message-ID: <13993.888908908@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <E0y9ev9-0007Ri-00@set.spradley.tmi.net>, Ted Spradley writes:
>> You *definitely* make very valid points, but 2.2.X is becoming too difficul
>t
>> to maintain, and people are too tempted to use -current (with negative
>> consequences.) This is a difficult judgement call, and I don't think the
>> decisions have been made final.
>
>No one has commented on Terry Lambert's suggestion to change the name from 3.
>0
>to 2.3. I suppose that's just meaningless marketing silliness, especially
>when your product is free, but I expected to see some comment.
The fact that there has been none comment on Terrys suggestion usually
means that people didn't even spend so much time to consider it that
they could prevent their Pavlovian reflex from pressing D at the sight
of Terrys name.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 23:35:41 1998
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
cc: Ted Spradley <tsprad@set.spradley.tmi.net>,
"John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:08:28 +0100."
<13993.888908908@critter.freebsd.dk>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Well, if you do rename 3.0 to 2.3 I bet that their will be lots of
comments --- till then I don't think people really care .
I think is a good idea to rename a 3.0 snapshot to 2.3 and stabilize
cause 3.0 has such a bad reputation actually it is more of symbol
for fear 8)
Amancio
> In message <E0y9ev9-0007Ri-00@set.spradley.tmi.net>, Ted Spradley writes:
> >> You *definitely* make very valid points, but 2.2.X is becoming too difficul
> >t
> >> to maintain, and people are too tempted to use -current (with negative
> >> consequences.) This is a difficult judgement call, and I don't think the
> >> decisions have been made final.
> >
> >No one has commented on Terry Lambert's suggestion to change the name from 3.
> >0
> >to 2.3. I suppose that's just meaningless marketing silliness, especially
> >when your product is free, but I expected to see some comment.
>
> The fact that there has been none comment on Terrys suggestion usually
> means that people didn't even spend so much time to consider it that
> they could prevent their Pavlovian reflex from pressing D at the sight
> of Terrys name.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
> phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
> "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 23:49:31 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803030749.AAA17327@usr05.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:49:21 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803030430.UAA22761@bubba.whistle.com> from "Archie Cobbs" at Mar 2, 98 08:30:54 pm
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> > Archie Cobb would...
> ^^^^ that's COBBS with an S.. :-)
Sorry, typo... I tend to leave the letters off the ends of words (or names).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 23:56:22 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803030756.AAA17826@usr05.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:56:12 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: tom@uniserve.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803030601.BAA00325@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 3, 98 01:01:13 am
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> > It is kinda of interesting that Solidtech ported their Solid server to
> > FreeBSD 2.2, but performance is so-so because of lack of threading.
>
> That does not surprise me. Oracle is the same way (whoops!!!), because
> the current FreeBSD port doesn't use AIO. (The port was done a long time
> ago.) It is mostly used in the NC server, and doesn't really need high
> perf.
>
> Actually, AIO should help databases alot.
Yes. I was going to point out that user space threading actually
works up to Draft 4 requirements now, and there is very little
difference between thre and draft 10.
The main difference in using AIO or kernel threads is that you can
interleave read operations (write operations are interleaved anyway).
There's a bit of argument possible here; for example, when you make a
read with O_NONBLOCK, and it returns EWOULDBLOCK, it's probably a
good thing to trigger a read-ahead. This would allow the current user
space implementation to interleave I/O as effectively as a kernel
threads implementation, and with an additional NULL system call overhead
relative to each read call.
An AIO may or may not be able to cluster waits in the average case,
so this may be a wash.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 00:28:10 1998
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Message-ID: <19980303092719.58779@follo.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:27:19 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>,
"John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Cc: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net> <13021.888879868@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In-Reply-To: <13021.888879868@critter.freebsd.dk>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:04:28AM +0100
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:04:28AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> You're rambling some perfectly valid points as usual :-)
>
> We're at the point where it would really be nice to be able to go tell
> the CEO "off to the bank you go, borrow some money for R&D, you may
> get them back in increased revenue later. We'll need $1M over the
> year. Small unmarked used notes would be best."
>
> Sponsors most welcome.
Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field
in the registration, where people could key in their credit card
number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further
FreeBSD development?
It should in that case include some suggestions that would tempt
people to donate even if they can't donate a large amount e.g, "No
amount to small, no amount to large. Certain you can't spare $10 in
favour of faster SMP-developments?"
If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10,
there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD.
Eivind, who can't easily come up with the required $1M himself at the
moment.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 00:43:00 1998
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Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:39:24 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <19980303093923.52803@follo.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:39:23 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <13993.888908908@critter.freebsd.dk> <199803030734.XAA19313@rah.star-gate.com>
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On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:34:26PM -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> Well, if you do rename 3.0 to 2.3 I bet that their will be lots of
> comments --- till then I don't think people really care .
>
> I think is a good idea to rename a 3.0 snapshot to 2.3 and stabilize
> cause 3.0 has such a bad reputation actually it is more of symbol
> for fear 8)
I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - <osreldate.h> is
clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce
incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though.
Given the currently lacking kernel versioning (a major frustration for
me and others that maintain stuff outside FreeBSD proper - I'd like to
fetch the number for osreldate from <sys/param.h> and be done with it)
the issue is only a userland issue, and smaller than it could be.
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 01:12:42 1998
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To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:39:23 +0100."
<19980303093923.52803@follo.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 01:01:21 -0800
Message-ID: <8270.888915681@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - <osreldate.h> is
> clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce
> incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though.
Don't worry about it. The version is NOT going to change, period.
It's going to be 3.0 no matter what the feature set is and I wonder
why people are even wasting their time debating it because it's not
even a subject which is open to debate. Hell will freeze over before
I release a 2.5 or 2.3 or whatever you want to call it release, OK? :-)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 01:13:01 1998
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To: eivind@yes.no
CC: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <19980303093923.52803@follo.net> (message from Eivind Eklund on Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:39:23 +0100)
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami)
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* I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - <osreldate.h> is
* clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce
* incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though.
It's not only me. __FreeBSD__ is used in many places to distinguish
between the two source trees, it's just suicidal to rewind it at this
point.
Satoshi
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 01:21:15 1998
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From: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803030440.XAA00843@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 2, 98 11:40:21 pm"
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:23:27 +1100 (EST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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John S. Dyson wrote:
> So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind
> of in progress for a good API interface.)
And it'll get a move on if we can just get current thread pointer updated
on context switch. Remember that? Would begging do any good? 8-)
--
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 01:32:40 1998
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To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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>incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though.
Oops, I don't want to give Satoshi a heart attack . Scratch the
idea of switch 3.0 to 2.3 at least from my part.
Regards,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 02:05:42 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>, "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, smp@csn.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:16:22 PST."
<4479.888891382@time.cdrom.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:49:42 +0100
Message-ID: <331.888911382@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <4479.888891382@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:
>> How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have
>> they?
>
>More monkeys?
10 monkeys, 4 minutes :-)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 02:09:47 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803031009.DAA26321@usr09.primenet.com>
Subject: Locking architecture document
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:09:33 +0000 (GMT)
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I have put up a basic architecture document describing data structures
and relationships.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find my best reference for
inclusion; it basically describes the algorithm I want.
http://www.freebsd.org/~terry/iml.txt
Comments welcome.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 04:15:11 1998
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From: albast <albast@xs4all.nl>
Message-Id: <199803031215.NAA25335@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <19980303092719.58779@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Mar 3, 98 09:27:19 am"
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:15:06 +0100 (MET)
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> Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field
> in the registration, where people could key in their credit card
> number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further
> FreeBSD development?
>
> It should in that case include some suggestions that would tempt
> people to donate even if they can't donate a large amount e.g, "No
> amount to small, no amount to large. Certain you can't spare $10 in
> favour of faster SMP-developments?"
>
> If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10,
> there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD.
>
Great idea!
I would certainly donate if there would be some collaborate effort at
funding the amount needed to seriously improve FreeBSD.. Makes sense. :-)
--jeroen
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 04:34:22 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 13:37:30 +0100
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From: Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>
To: tomdean@ix.netcom.com
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803030143.RAA00750@ix.netcom.com> (message from Thomas Dean
on Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:43:33 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current
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>>>>> Thomas Dean writes:
> Send a sample and I will try it.
take ftp://ftp.obs-besancon.fr/pub/outgoing/jmz/pot.gz. Start gdb and
just type 'file pot'
Jean-Marc
_____________________________________________________________________________
Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex
PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 04:40:53 1998
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199803031108.MAA22909@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: albast@xs4all.nl (albast)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:08:58 +0100 (MET)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803031215.NAA25335@xs2.xs4all.nl> from "albast" at Mar 3, 98 01:14:47 pm
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> > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10,
> > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD.
i thing these computation can be more realistic by asking WC how many
copies of 2.2.5 RELEASE they have sold... (not to mention that
i think some of the revenues for FreeBSD CDs already go into FreeBSD
development...)
cheers
luigi
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 07:09:12 1998
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <19980303092719.58779@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Mar 3, 98 09:27:19 am"
To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:05:32 +0100 (CET)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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According to Eivind Eklund:
> On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:04:28AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> > Sponsors most welcome.
>
> Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field
> in the registration, where people could key in their credit card
> number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further
> FreeBSD development?
Nice idea.
How about another? WC could sell stickers with a text like
"I support the FreeBSD project", and maybe even subscriptions on said
stickers. Say $5 (or volunteerly more) for a sticker, and people could
buy as many as they wanted. And say that WC kept $.5 for each sticker
and let the rest go to a special fund that is used soley for bailing
people out of work for more or less long periods of time, so that we
get more manhours into the project for tasks where it's needed, but
not always available.
I personally have a way too nice connection to the net to consider
putting money into a CD, which I don't need and which just go out
of date. I could very well see myself ordering a stickers or two,
from time to time. After all, what's something like $20 per year for
a lot of us? And it would just be encouraged, not required, right?
So not a big problem for those without money :-)
/Mikael
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 07:15:57 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:10:57 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, albast <albast@xs4all.nl>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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In-Reply-To: <199803031108.MAA22909@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>; from Luigi Rizzo on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:08:58PM +0100
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:08:58PM +0100, Luigi Rizzo wrote:
> > > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10,
> > > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD.
>
> i thing these computation can be more realistic by asking WC how many
> copies of 2.2.5 RELEASE they have sold...
I'm not certain I agree. I'd donate more than $10, and I didn't buy
any 2.2.5 CD-ROMs. I don't think $5M is realistic, but I think we
could get a significant amount raised that way - at close to no cost.
> (not to mention that i think some of the revenues for FreeBSD CDs
> already go into FreeBSD development...)
That's correct, AFAIK.
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:00:22 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:00:49 -0500 (EST)
Organization: Univesity of Kentucky Technical Services
From: John Soward <soward@uky.edu>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On 03-Mar-98 Luigi Rizzo mentioned:
>> > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10,
>> > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD.
>
>i thing these computation can be more realistic by asking WC how many
>copies of 2.2.5 RELEASE they have sold... (not to mention that
>i think some of the revenues for FreeBSD CDs already go into FreeBSD
>development...)
>
We have a large investment in FreeBSD here at UK. Currently our primary campus
web server uses it (~1000 users), and our news server...and in a few weeks our 3
2,000 user pop mail system will be FreeBSD based.
I can certainly come up with some sort of 'dontation', but, of course, I'll need
some official 'proceedure' to deposit the funds that our purchasing department
will grok...something like an 'enterprise subscription' to the CDs that's more a
long the line of $1500/year instead of $150?
--
John Soward <a href="http://neworder.cc.uky.edu/">JpS</a>
Sr. Systems Programmer 'The Midnight sun will burn you up.'
University of Kentucky (NeXT and MIME mail OK) -R. Smith
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:05:16 1998
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To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, smp@csn.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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> > > I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure
> > > calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db
> > > implementations around for this and other reasons.
> >
> > Bwah, hah, hah, hah, hah. (Wiping tears from my eyes..)
> >
> > You've *GOT* to be kidding, right? ObjectStore is fast for a ObjectDB,
> > but it's *darn* slow as compared to a relational DB, like Oracle and/or
> > Informix.
> >
> > (We use their Java engine in our product, but speedy it ain't. And the
> > locking in ObjectStore is useless at best. At least their payware Java
> > DB has the ability to have more than one 'session' open on a DB at a
> > time.)
>
> You're looking at the PSE which is completely different. You're playing
> with a one user toy, a nice toy but still a toy.
PSE/PRO is more than a one user toy. PSE is the one-user toy, PSE/PRO
at least allows more than one session per process, unlike ObjectStore.
> ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much
> faster.
We've demo'd ObjectStore, and because of the 'one-process per DB'
locking they have, it's basically useless. (And, the much faster we've
not seen either.)
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:10:08 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Cc: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net,
Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980302222124.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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> > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much
> > faster.
>
> Does it support a true relational model?
Not really.
> Purely OO database engine is
> heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational.
It depends. If you data is organized in such a manner that heirachial
(sp?) data access is faster, then it's a win. But, if you end up having
lots of 'built-in' relationships that aren't necessarily obvious or
setup apriori from the objects themselves, then it can be *much* slower.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:40:29 1998
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199803031508.QAA23366@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: soward@uky.edu (John Soward)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:08:49 +0100 (MET)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980303110439.soward@uky.edu> from "John Soward" at Mar 3, 98 11:00:30 am
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> I can certainly come up with some sort of 'dontation', but, of course, I'll need
> some official 'proceedure' to deposit the funds that our purchasing department
> will grok...something like an 'enterprise subscription' to the CDs that's more a
> long the line of $1500/year instead of $150?
why don't you just buy 10 subscriptions and give away the disks if
you really don't want them. Surely there is a lot of profit on
each CD so you'd still end up supporting the project without too
many procedural complications.
and you can always justify the expense by saying that you need to have
the media around in all labs etc...
cheers
luigi
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:43:17 1998
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From: Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
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I see your problem.
Did you compile pot? What is the output of the build/make commands?
tomdean
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:51:31 1998
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From: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Luigi Rizzo wrote:
>why don't you just buy 10 subscriptions and give away the disks if
>you really don't want them. Surely there is a lot of profit on
>each CD so you'd still end up supporting the project without too
>many procedural complications.
>
>and you can always justify the expense by saying that you need to have
>the media around in all labs etc...
I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD
people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.)
I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a
donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some
small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying
the big bucks for it.
It'd be really easy to argue this both ways.
Brian
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:53:49 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199803031653.LAA01555@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <8270.888915681@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 3, 98 01:01:21 am"
To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:53:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: eivind@yes.no, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, phk@critter.freebsd.dk,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Jordan K. Hubbard said:
> > I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - <osreldate.h> is
> > clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce
> > incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though.
>
> Don't worry about it. The version is NOT going to change, period.
> It's going to be 3.0 no matter what the feature set is and I wonder
> why people are even wasting their time debating it because it's not
> even a subject which is open to debate. Hell will freeze over before
> I release a 2.5 or 2.3 or whatever you want to call it release, OK? :-)
>
I know that this message is redundant, but I want to chime in and say that
I agree with JKH. This is one of those silly form/substance debates, where
from a programming and software quality standpoint, the version number isn't
important. There are practical reasons why 3.0 has to be it, and let's just
move forward.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:54:17 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:52:44 -0600
From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Cc: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>,
"John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, smp@csn.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <199803030519.WAA26387@mt.sri.com> <Pine.SV4.3.95.980303143444.3809A-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp> <199803031604.JAA29061@mt.sri.com>
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On Mar 03, 1998 at 09:04:05AM -0700, Nate Williams wrote:
> > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much
> > faster.
>
> We've demo'd ObjectStore, and because of the 'one-process per DB'
> locking they have, it's basically useless. (And, the much faster we've
> not seen either.)
IIRC, U.Wisconsin attempted to benchmark several OO Database engines, and
they ended up in a big argument with ODI. If I understand it correctly,
the 007 benchmark did not show ODI performing very well, and ODI was
claiming that the UW researchers showed bias in their benchmarks.
See ftp://ftp.cs.wisc.edu/oo7/sigmod.ps
--
Jonathan (who has no affiliation with the DB project at UW Madison)
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:54:44 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:23 -0600
From: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
To: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
Cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 08:50:19AM -0800, Brian Handy wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Luigi Rizzo wrote:
>
> >why don't you just buy 10 subscriptions and give away the disks if
> >you really don't want them. Surely there is a lot of profit on
> >each CD so you'd still end up supporting the project without too
> >many procedural complications.
> >
> >and you can always justify the expense by saying that you need to have
> >the media around in all labs etc...
>
> I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD
> people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.)
> I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a
> donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some
> small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying
> the big bucks for it.
>
> It'd be really easy to argue this both ways.
>
> Brian
Well, the obvious question is: How much of what you spend on CDs goes to
the FreeBSD project?
--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
| NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 09:09:44 1998
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199803031538.QAA23483@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian Handy)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:38:06 +0100 (MET)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980303084641.20771A-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com> from "Brian Handy" at Mar 3, 98 08:50:00 am
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> I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD
> people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.)
> I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a
> donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some
donation to whom ? Handling money etc has its costs, and for sure,
apart from the significant investment in time and manpower of many
developers, WC has the enormous merit of giving infrastructure
support to the project, in the form of equipment, network access,
advertisment, probably salaries to some people, etc.
I do hope they (WC) get some good revenue from FreeBSD, so that the
project can be seen as a profitable investment and get more resources.
I am not even a customer, but very satisfied!
cheers
luigi
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 09:12:30 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:19:33 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net,
Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
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On 03-Mar-98 Nate Williams wrote:
>> > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much
>> > faster.
>>
>> Does it support a true relational model?
>
> Not really.
>
>> Purely OO database engine is
>> heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational.
>
> It depends. If you data is organized in such a manner that heirachial
> (sp?) data access is faster, then it's a win. But, if you end up having
> lots of 'built-in' relationships that aren't necessarily obvious or
> setup apriori from the objects themselves, then it can be *much* slower.
I think we both agree that the potential for speed is there. Only problem
is that a relational model is so convinient for so man y problems...
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:11:27 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:05:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
To: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
In-Reply-To: <19980303001626.A9433@keltia.freenix.fr>
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ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this
week..
I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic?
julian
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote:
> According to Ollivier Robert:
> > Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I
> > have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current
> > and running/compiling some programs.
>
> And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-(
>
> > That's too random to get a clear picture.
>
> The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It
> doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related.
> --
> Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
> FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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>
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:16:53 1998
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To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
cc: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:05:44 PST."
<Pine.BSF.3.95.980303100501.8536C-100000@current1.whistle.com>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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He is experiencing the same panic which I reported to you and I
am still experiencing over here.
Amancio
> ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this
> week..
> I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic?
>
>
> julian
>
> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote:
>
> > According to Ollivier Robert:
> > > Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I
> > > have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current
> > > and running/compiling some programs.
> >
> > And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-(
> >
> > > That's too random to get a clear picture.
> >
> > The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It
> > doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related.
> > --
> > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
> > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
> >
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:20:44 1998
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From: Jim Lowe <james@miller.cs.uwm.edu>
Message-Id: <199803031820.MAA02699@miller.cs.uwm.edu>
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, mike@smith.net.au
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net,
tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net
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> To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
> cc: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
> jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net
> From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
>
> > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it
> > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where
> > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had
> > a fine mbone tunnel .
>
> Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone
> anymore, if they ever had it in the first place.
>
The Mbone seems to work fine here in the midwest. I have been
watching places all over the world and listening to radio free
vat with nearly 0% loss for over a week now. I guess it just
depends on your service provider and how seriously they take
running multicast. If they don't have enough bandwidth to
properly exchange unicast traffic, they certainly aren't going
to have enough for multicast traffic.
-Jim
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:21:45 1998
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To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard), eivind@yes.no, phk@critter.freebsd.dk,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:53:30 EST."
<199803031653.LAA01555@dyson.iquest.net>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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At some point , I think it will be cool to have 4.0. Right now , 3.0 is
the target for new and creative ideas 8)
Cheers,
Amancio
> Jordan K. Hubbard said:
> > > I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - <osreldate.h> is
> > > clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce
> > > incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though.
> >
> > Don't worry about it. The version is NOT going to change, period.
> > It's going to be 3.0 no matter what the feature set is and I wonder
> > why people are even wasting their time debating it because it's not
> > even a subject which is open to debate. Hell will freeze over before
> > I release a 2.5 or 2.3 or whatever you want to call it release, OK? :-)
> >
> I know that this message is redundant, but I want to chime in and say that
> I agree with JKH. This is one of those silly form/substance debates, where
> from a programming and software quality standpoint, the version number isn't
> important. There are practical reasons why 3.0 has to be it, and let's just
> move forward.
>
> --
> John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:34:18 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:41:18 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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On 03-Mar-98 Eivind Eklund wrote:
...
> Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field
> in the registration, where people could key in their credit card
> number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further
> FreeBSD development?
It simply makes too much sense... Therfore, I'll extend the idea,
borrowing from other projects;
Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only $18,50.
A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit to
lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months.
Any registered membe can vote on certain issues. A vote costs $5.00 (make
more money this way :-)
Aside from voting, members are entitled to bitching about the stability of
current for free. All others must donate a non-refundable $3.00/complaint.
Lifetime members can cross post their complaint to as many mailing lists as
they want.
To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all
corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs 35
times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting rights.
> It should in that case include some suggestions that would tempt
> people to donate even if they can't donate a large amount e.g, "No
> amount to small, no amount to large. Certain you can't spare $10 in
> favour of faster SMP-developments?"
Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their
favorite core member.
>
> If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10,
> there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD.
I think Steve would like this, but do not expect more than 2-6% of the
users to respond.
> Eivind, who can't easily come up with the required $1M himself at the
> moment.
Seriously folks, this is a good idea. I volunteer to assist Eivind in
setting it up. I can provide the merchant account for Vias/MC, and the
Internet presence.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:34:21 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:20:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
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yep.. I got it stored away here..
will get to it in the next day or so..
(busy with an ISDN chip right now)
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> He is experiencing the same panic which I reported to you and I
> am still experiencing over here.
>
> Amancio
>
> > ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this
> > week..
> > I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic?
> >
> >
> > julian
> >
> > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote:
> >
> > > According to Ollivier Robert:
> > > > Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I
> > > > have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current
> > > > and running/compiling some programs.
> > >
> > > And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-(
> > >
> > > > That's too random to get a clear picture.
> > >
> > > The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It
> > > doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related.
> > > --
> > > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
> > > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
> > >
> >
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
>
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:37:05 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199803031836.NAA02019@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980303104118.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 10:41:18 am"
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:36:16 -0500 (EST)
Cc: eivind@yes.no, current@FreeBSD.ORG, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se,
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Simon Shapiro said:
>
> Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their
> favorite core member.
>
Otherwise, if people don't donate, they get a picture of me, or worse,
a penguin :-).
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:38:24 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:45:29 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: John Soward <soward@uky.edu>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 03-Mar-98 John Soward wrote:
...
> We have a large investment in FreeBSD here at UK. Currently our primary
> campus
> web server uses it (~1000 users), and our news server...and in a few
> weeks our 3
> 2,000 user pop mail system will be FreeBSD based.
>
> I can certainly come up with some sort of 'dontation', but, of course,
> I'll need
> some official 'proceedure' to deposit the funds that our purchasing
> department
> will grok...something like an 'enterprise subscription' to the CDs that's
> more a
> long the line of $1500/year instead of $150?
As much as we are all indebted to WCCD for their fantastic support, this
thread is about supporting the non-profit organization representing the
users and developers of the software. Mixing it with WC CD sales will be
wrong. Offering an independant CD will be even more wrong. I think a
membership fee is the way to go. (I think I could start a little war right
here, but will refrain :-)
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:41:24 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:40:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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>> Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their
>> favorite core member.
>>
>Otherwise, if people don't donate, they get a picture of me, or worse,
>a penguin :-).
...and periodic mailings that if you don't send more money, we're sending
you more photos of the core team. :-)
Brian
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:41:30 1998
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To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
cc: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:20:10 PST."
<Pine.BSF.3.95.980303101919.8536F-100000@current1.whistle.com>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Out of Context:
I heard yesterday on a radio commercial : That the Interjet was so good
to install that it was worth installing over and over again .
Are you guys going to come out with an Interjet theme song 8)
Back to the topic:
It appears that the illegal access while copying an inode was more of
a problem for Dyson .
Cheers,
Amancio
> yep.. I got it stored away here..
>
> will get to it in the next day or so..
> (busy with an ISDN chip right now)
>
> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote:
>
> > He is experiencing the same panic which I reported to you and I
> > am still experiencing over here.
> >
> > Amancio
> >
> > > ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this
> > > week..
> > > I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic?
> > >
> > >
> > > julian
> > >
> > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote:
> > >
> > > > According to Ollivier Robert:
> > > > > Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I
> > > > > have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current
> > > > > and running/compiling some programs.
> > > >
> > > > And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-(
> > > >
> > > > > That's too random to get a clear picture.
> > > >
> > > > The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It
> > > > doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related.
> > > > --
> > > > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
> > > > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998
> > > >
> > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
> >
> >
> >
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:44:39 1998
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:45:29 PST."
<XFMail.980303104529.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Dear Santa <jkh>,
Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can
have fine SMP granularity by Christmas?
Thank You,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:52:24 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:59:26 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
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On 03-Mar-98 Brian Handy wrote:
>>> Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their
>>> favorite core member.
>>>
>>Otherwise, if people don't donate, they get a picture of me, or worse,
>>a penguin :-).
>
> ...and periodic mailings that if you don't send more money, we're sending
> you more photos of the core team. :-)
Here are few more ideas:
$3.00 gets you a window sticker (in a yelow diamond) ``This driver Carries
only $29.95 worth of FreeBSD CD''
$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
$25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and...
Agree with Him''
The opportunities here are endless. Any Lawyer out there to incorporate,
patent, copyright and declare these undoable?
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:54:19 1998
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To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: troff papers missing
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Organization: The Frobozz Magic Homing Pigeon Company
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:54:17 -0700
From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org>
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Once upon a time (4.4Lite) the doc distribution contained a
troff reference paper in the doc tree. This seems to be missing
from 3.0. Am I blind, or was it removed? If it was nuked, why?
(Troff reference manuals are getting as rare as original copies
of the annotated 6th edition source ...)
--lyndon
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:54:22 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:15:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <199803031815.NAA24284@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>
To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Patches in support of security
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980228224400.14331Y-100000@sasami.jurai.net>
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<<On Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:48:29 -0500 (EST), "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net> said:
> This looks useful. (or at least is a useful first step) While some
> policies may be enforced with creative firewall rules, these patches
> provide a clean interface at the application level.
This seems potentially acceptable. A couple of nits:
1) The socket option in question is clearly also applicable to UDP
sockets (and those of any other IP-based protocol). It should be an
IP-level option, not a TCP-level one.
2) Read style(9).
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same
wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom
Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame
MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:55:23 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 10:59:26 am"
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:54:43 -0500 (EST)
Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net
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Simon Shapiro said:
>
> $25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and...
> Agree with Him''
>
I don't know, maybe then, you get a penguin :-). (Sorry Terry!!!)
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:02:18 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:01:49 +0000
From: freebsd@isvara.net
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To: FreeBSD Current <current@FreeBSD.ORG>,
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <XFMail.980303110439.soward@uky.edu>
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John Soward wrote:
> We have a large investment in FreeBSD here at UK. Currently our primary campus
> web server uses it (~1000 users), and our news server...and in a few weeks our 3
> 2,000 user pop mail system will be FreeBSD based.
Similar situation here. Our universities use FreeBSD and Novell OSs for the servers.
The admin people have identified that FreeBSD is far more stable and faster than
Linux generally. There are close to 100K students in Manchester AFAIK, putting a
large loading on the services offered.
There are three main mail gateways (smarthosts), and all operate well.
The local university networks comprise of four 100Mb FDDI rings (one per university)
feeding into the 155Mb ATM Manchester backbone which connects to the Manchester
Network Access Point (MaNAP) and two other core switching nodes for the academic
community, via 155Mb ATM links. There are three DNS servers (all running FreeBSD),
and are under very heavy load; All continously work perfectly.
FreeBSD is well known for it's stability and performance operating as a server, and
Manchester Computing uses it extensively. 8-)
Well done FreeBSD team.
Dan
_____________________________________
Daniel J Blueman
BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester
Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net
Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:03:40 1998
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From: Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com
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In-reply-to: <199803031844.KAA25807@rah.star-gate.com> (message from Amancio
Hasty on Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:44:29 -0800)
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
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> Dear Santa <jkh>,
>
> Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can
> have fine SMP granularity by Christmas?
>
> Thank You,
> Amancio
Me too.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:11:07 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:08:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
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>> Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can
>> have fine SMP granularity by Christmas?
Well, someone else sent in their $25 already and asked for a web search
engine on ftp.freebsd.org:
http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html
:-)
Brian
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:14:25 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:21:17 -0800 (PST)
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Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, handy@sag.space.lockheed.com
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On 03-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote:
> Simon Shapiro said:
>>
>> $25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and...
>> Agree with Him''
>>
> I don't know, maybe then, you get a penguin :-). (Sorry Terry!!!)
Every 500th caller gets a Debian CD (to go with the Penguin).
I think we are on a roll here. Great Ideas!
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:20:38 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:18:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Bartol <bartol@salk.edu>
To: Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
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Not trying to play a status game here, but I'd be willing to contribute
$100!!! I LOVE FreeBSD!!!!
Tom
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Thomas Dean wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dear Santa <jkh>,
> >
> > Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can
> > have fine SMP granularity by Christmas?
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Amancio
>
> Me too.
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:27:57 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803031927.MAA02248@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:27:33 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, eivind@yes.no, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803031653.LAA01555@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 3, 98 11:53:30 am
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> > Don't worry about it. The version is NOT going to change, period.
> > It's going to be 3.0 no matter what the feature set is and I wonder
> > why people are even wasting their time debating it because it's not
> > even a subject which is open to debate. Hell will freeze over before
> > I release a 2.5 or 2.3 or whatever you want to call it release, OK? :-)
>
> I know that this message is redundant, but I want to chime in and say that
> I agree with JKH. This is one of those silly form/substance debates, where
> from a programming and software quality standpoint, the version number isn't
> important. There are practical reasons why 3.0 has to be it, and let's just
> move forward.
Just to put this to rest, since I'm the one that suggested it, given
the goals, it's not a good idea to rename the 3.0 to a lesser version.
My primary concern was pushing SMP and other features out to 4.0.
One of the suggestions was pushing out to 3.1 or 3.2; I could
certainly live with that.
It's unfortunate that most of the rational discussion occurred in private
(or semi-private) email, where it was invisible to the place where the
issue was first raised.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:36:47 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803031936.MAA02971@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Patches in support of security
To: wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:36:31 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: winter@jurai.net, tlambert@primenet.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803031815.NAA24284@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Mar 3, 98 01:15:25 pm
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> > This looks useful. (or at least is a useful first step) While some
> > policies may be enforced with creative firewall rules, these patches
> > provide a clean interface at the application level.
>
> This seems potentially acceptable. A couple of nits:
>
> 1) The socket option in question is clearly also applicable to UDP
> sockets (and those of any other IP-based protocol). It should be an
> IP-level option, not a TCP-level one.
The interface will come back untrusted if there is not a route for
it available. I was trying to limit it to connected sockets. You
could do connected sockets in a UDP client, but interface trust is
much less useful for clients than it is for servers. I would even
argue it's only useful for servers. I suppose if it were bound to a
particular interface insetad of INADDR_ANY, a UDP server would be
able to make the decision, but it could do so by grabbing the interface
flags directly.
I can add this code, if you want, but I didn't see it as being useful
in a datagram environment.
> 2) Read style(9).
This is moderately bogus, if you are complaining about parenthesis
placement in the (trivial) tcp_trusted function, since it's a new
function. Also, read indent(1). If you are complaining about the
lack of prototypes in the declaration, style(9) explicitly allows
for matching the declaration style of the compilation unit. 8-(.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:49:15 1998
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Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
eivind@yes.no, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG,
(John S. Dyson) <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
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On 03-Mar-98 Terry Lambert wrote:
...
> My primary concern was pushing SMP and other features out to 4.0.
> One of the suggestions was pushing out to 3.1 or 3.2; I could
> certainly live with that.
Maybe we need to admit to ourselves, that there are certain tasks we
cannot complete in reliable manner as a non-profit organization, so loosely
knit. I think that an optimally designed SMP may be one such task. This
aside from the fact that 95% of all FreeBSD SMP will run on a dual
processor, will run single threaded applications, and the great improvement
will be from 1.8 utilization factor to 1.99 - A whopping 5.5% in days where
MIPS are cheaper than white bread.
> It's unfortunate that most of the rational discussion occurred in private
> (or semi-private) email, where it was invisible to the place where the
> issue was first raised.
We all behave in private quite dirrefently than in public.
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:52:10 1998
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
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Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 10:59:26 am"
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:51:48 -0800 (PST)
Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net
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Simon Shapiro wrote:
> $25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and...
> Agree with Him''
thanks gonna cost you more than $25.00 ;)
jmb
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:52:37 1998
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980303111639.2095B-100000@dale.salk.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:59:28 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Tom Bartol <bartol@salk.edu>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
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On 03-Mar-98 Tom Bartol wrote:
>
> Not trying to play a status game here, but I'd be willing to contribute
> $100!!! I LOVE FreeBSD!!!!
....
An auction! The wineer gets a Trophy that says ``I paid the most ($_____)
for a free software!
Anyone who thinks this is a good thing to do, pontact me via private mail,
and we'll get a plan together, and submit it to the bosses for approval.
In the meantime we can bring this mailing list back to what we all
committed to have it contain.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:07:55 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:07:40 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
To: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>,
Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
References: <199803031903.LAA03101@ix.netcom.com> <Pine.OSF.3.96.980303110805.16094C-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980303110805.16094C-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com>; from Brian Handy on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 11:08:42AM -0800
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 11:08:42AM -0800, Brian Handy wrote:
> >> Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can
> >> have fine SMP granularity by Christmas?
>
> Well, someone else sent in their $25 already and asked for a web search
> engine on ftp.freebsd.org:
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html
Are all the donors listed at
http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook255.html#donors ??? I mean ... no
wonder there's no SMP granularitygook yet. Geez ...
What we should do, is get a Credit Card thing for FreeBSD and put that in
sysinstall ... "register your donation now!" :)
--
//Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=-
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:13:10 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:12:58 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
To: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: troff papers missing
References: <199803031854.LAA02533@ve7tcp.ampr.org>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 11:54:17AM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> Once upon a time (4.4Lite) the doc distribution contained a
> troff reference paper in the doc tree. This seems to be missing
> from 3.0. Am I blind, or was it removed? If it was nuked, why?
> (Troff reference manuals are getting as rare as original copies
> of the annotated 6th edition source ...)
Me too!
Also, which is write, the man page stating 'troff -mmm' or the invocation
that does work 'troff -mm' ? :)
danny
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:13:35 1998
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:07:40 -0600"
References: <19980303140740.47554@urh.uiuc.edu>
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> > Well, someone else sent in their $25 already and asked for a web search
> > engine on ftp.freebsd.org:
> >
> > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html
>
> Are all the donors listed at
> http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook255.html#donors ??? I mean ... no
> wonder there's no SMP granularitygook yet. Geez ...
>
> What we should do, is get a Credit Card thing for FreeBSD and put that in
> sysinstall ... "register your donation now!" :)
I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier
for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention
the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller
than the value of the check itself...)
Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:19:15 1998
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From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
Mail-Followup-To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>,
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According to Julian Elischer:
> ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this
> week..
Thanks.
As soon as I put softupdates on /news at home or on /home at work, it will
panic. Without "noatime" it seems a bit more stable but it may be just
masking the problem.
> I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic?
Except this particular panic, I'm very impressed and happy with
softupdates. It is the last thing that refrain me to switch softupdates on
all my filesystems.
/dev/sd0a on / (local, writes: sync 59 async 7117)
/dev/sd0s2e on /usr (local, writes: sync 2 async 3122)
/dev/sd2s4a on /var (local, writes: sync 127777 async 49021)
/dev/sd0s2f on /usr/local (local, writes: sync 110 async 7134)
/dev/sd0s2g on /users (local, writes: sync 29107 async 31641)
/dev/sd2s4e on /news (asynchronous, local, noatime, writes: sync 12047 async 38681)
/dev/sd0s2h on /src (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 205)
/dev/sd2s4d on /spare (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 24 async 530)
/dev/sd0s2d on /work (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 277 async 4955)
/dev/sd12a on /x (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 1474)
/dev/sd2s4f on /y (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 0)
/dev/sd1s1e on /z (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 0)
--
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:19:48 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:19:24 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
To: sthaug@nethelp.no
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
References: <19980303140740.47554@urh.uiuc.edu> <6307.888955995@verdi.nethelp.no>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 09:13:15PM +0100, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote:
> I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier
> for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention
> the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller
> than the value of the check itself...)
That's right .. International users ...
Over break, if nobody's beat me to it, late in March, I'll talk to my former
employer about how one goes about getting a credit card thingus.
I could envision a private company doing its part by acting as a
fund-collecting proxy for FreeBSD ... CC registration can go to say, a loyal
ISP who cuts a check every month to FreeBSD.
And yes, it's a lot easier even for me in America to do credit card. Impulse
purchase where i write a few numbers down, as opposed to going to an ATM to
see if I have any money, digging up a security envelope and finding the
stamp/address, etc ... I'd even be willing to "subscribe" $50/year or
something. :)
--
//Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=-
\\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=-
aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:07:32 1998
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From: Arjan de Vet <Arjan.deVet@adv.IAEhv.nl>
Message-Id: <199803032105.WAA02744@adv.IAEhv.nl>
To: geoffb@chuggalug.clues.com
Subject: Re: Pthreads in current
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In article <199802271329.NAA01214@chuggalug.clues.com> you write:
> Playing with yesterdays current I notice the aparent absence of
>pthread_attr_setscope and pthread_attr_setschedparam from libc_r.
>The man page claims both are present :-)
>
> pthread_setschedparam is also missing but I suspect this may be
>non standard? (Although both Sun and SGI seem to have implimented it)
>
> Is this by intention or just that no one has implimented them yet?
I recently found another pthreads library at
http://www.humanfactor.com/pthreads/
This library has all the extra functions Squid 1.2beta needs and I got Squid
to compile with it without too much trouble. The first time I ran it it
worked, after that I got strange errors every time I tried :-(. Don't know
why yet.
Arjan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:13:32 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:11:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Shawn Ramsey <shawn@luke.cpl.net>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, albast <albast@xs4all.nl>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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> > i thing these computation can be more realistic by asking WC how many
> > copies of 2.2.5 RELEASE they have sold...
>
> I'm not certain I agree. I'd donate more than $10, and I didn't buy
> any 2.2.5 CD-ROMs. I don't think $5M is realistic, but I think we
I have been using FreeBSD for since 2.1.0, and have never purchased the
CD. I would certainly donate $10 for the cause if I think it would make a
difference.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:21:43 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, sthaug@nethelp.no
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On 03-Mar-98 dannyman wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 09:13:15PM +0100, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote:
>
>> I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far*
>> easier
>> for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to
>> mention
>> the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much
>> smaller
>> than the value of the check itself...)
>
> That's right .. International users ...
>
> Over break, if nobody's beat me to it, late in March, I'll talk to my
> former
> employer about how one goes about getting a credit card thingus.
I have the ability to do that now. Seriously folks, if this is something
useful, I'll do it.
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:38:15 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:37:17 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
cc: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: troff papers missing
In-Reply-To: <19980303141258.48777@urh.uiuc.edu>
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, dannyman wrote:
> Also, which is write, the man page stating 'troff -mmm' or the invocation
> that does work 'troff -mm' ? :)
The latter.
The handiest resource I've found for [nt]roff is _Unix Text
Processing_ by Daugherty and O'Reilly, published by Hayden Books.
It is out of print, but you may still be able to get
it...Powell's (www.powells.com) shows two copies available right
now.
-john
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:48:40 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:48:35 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: xlock freezes last two weeks
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I've had 3 or 4 freezes while the computer is in xlock these last two weeks;
never happened before. All of them have been while the screensaver was that
large circle-like thing (lots of line forming a complex circular pattern)
with cycling. I've also had two crashes while doing large compiles.
FreeBSD has been completely locked; not even answering pings.
Anybody have a clue as to what could cause this? (dmesgs etc available on
request - interesting hardware is PPro 200, Asus MB, Adaptec 2940, and Miro
PCTV (brooktree driver)).
The Miro was not in use (at least some of the time).
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:49:15 1998
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To: sthaug@nethelp.no
cc: dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:13:15 +0100."
<6307.888955995@verdi.nethelp.no>
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> I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier
> for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention
> the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller
> than the value of the check itself...)
Try a postal money order.
Seriously, accepting credit card donations is expensive work. Aside
from the 5% cut that the bank gets, you have to treat the money like
it's on elastic.
And unless you have someone else handling it for you, you won't get a
bank's attention until you're talking in six figures a year.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:49:15 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:47:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Alok K. Dhir" <adhir@worldbank.org>
To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
cc: julian@whistle.com, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
In-Reply-To: <DFDA8E5E3D0BB731852565BC0070162A.006F97C5852565BC@worldbank.org>
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Mind explaining what soft-updates does?
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 roberto@keltia.freenix.fr wrote:
>
>
> According to Julian Elischer:
> > ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this
> > week..
>
> Thanks.
>
> As soon as I put softupdates on /news at home or on /home at work, it will
> panic. Without "noatime" it seems a bit more stable but it may be just
> masking the problem.
>
> > I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic?
>
> Except this particular panic, I'm very impressed and happy with
> softupdates. It is the last thing that refrain me to switch softupdates on
> all my filesystems.
>
> /dev/sd0a on / (local, writes: sync 59 async 7117)
> /dev/sd0s2e on /usr (local, writes: sync 2 async 3122)
> /dev/sd2s4a on /var (local, writes: sync 127777 async 49021)
> /dev/sd0s2f on /usr/local (local, writes: sync 110 async 7134)
> /dev/sd0s2g on /users (local, writes: sync 29107 async 31641)
> /dev/sd2s4e on /news (asynchronous, local, noatime, writes: sync 12047
> async 38681)
> /dev/sd0s2h on /src (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 205)
> /dev/sd2s4d on /spare (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 24 async 530)
> /dev/sd0s2d on /work (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 277 async 4955)
> /dev/sd12a on /x (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 1474)
> /dev/sd2s4f on /y (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 0)
> /dev/sd1s1e on /z (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 0)
>
> --
> Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=-
> roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
> FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------- \||/_
Alok K. Dhir Phone: +1.202.473.2446 oo \
R7-003, ITSMC Email: adhir@worldbank.org L_
The World Bank Group Washington, DC \/
------------------------------------------------------------------------|
"Unix _is_ user friendly - it just chooses friends selectively..."
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:52:57 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
cc: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
sthaug@nethelp.no, hasty@rah.star-gate.com
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:28:25 PST."
<XFMail.980303132825.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:52:24 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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If you do setup the credit card thingy please let me know
in advance so I can be the first one to donate 8)
Regards,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:01:14 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:00:52 +0100
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> > I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier
> > for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention
> > the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller
> > than the value of the check itself...)
>
> Try a postal money order.
>
> Seriously, accepting credit card donations is expensive work. Aside
> from the 5% cut that the bank gets, you have to treat the money like
> it's on elastic.
I can believe that. However, if you want to get many people to donate,
especially outside the US, I believe user convenience is a major point.
With my VISA card, I could donate the money right here from my FreeBSD
system. I have no particular fear of sending the credit card number on
the net (I've already done this when buying FreeBSD t-shirts from WC :-).
If I have to get a check from the bank, or a money order, it costs me
extra time and money. Enough that I haven't done it so far.
Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:07:16 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:14:05 -0800 (PST)
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Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
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On 03-Mar-98 Amancio Hasty wrote:
> If you do setup the credit card thingy please let me know
> in advance so I can be the first one to donate 8)
>
> Regards,
> Amancio
I will. I will NOT do ANYTHING to represent FreeBSD unless comissioned in
writing by the core team. To do so will be feloneous.
Even if there is a written command.concent, I think that the management of
the corporation taking in the money should investigate and understand what
it all means. You can be a non-profit organization and take in a lot of
money and be very profitable, but you better know what you are doing;
Attonrney + CPA required.
I volunteer to setup the operation, collect the funds, disburse it under
CORE direction, etc. I will NOT make decisions for them.
I can safely decide to take YOUR entry first though :-)
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:10:14 1998
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To: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
cc: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>,
Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:54:23 CST."
<19980303105423.04044@mcs.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:08:52 -0800
Message-ID: <11855.888962932@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> Well, the obvious question is: How much of what you spend on CDs goes to
> the FreeBSD project?
Impossible to quantify, really. They pay my salary and the saleries
of two other folks who do only FreeBSD work. They house our machines
(and generally buy us new ones when we need them), they give us
network connectivity, they publish our newsletters and they pay our
airfare and hotel costs when we go off to evangelize about FreeBSD.
They also handle the "matching funds" arrangement for FreeBSD articles
published, Sean Eric Fagin being the last one to reap this particular
bounty for his Dr. Dobbs article.
All these things benefit them as well in their CD sales, of course,
but it's certainly true to say that if we were wholly independant,
we'd have to scrape together the funding for such things ourselves and
it wouldn't be cheap.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:13:14 1998
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To: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:50:19 PST."
<Pine.OSF.3.96.980303084641.20771A-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:03:38 -0800
Message-ID: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD
> people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.)
> I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a
> donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some
> small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying
> the big bucks for it.
I think the real question we need to answer here is:
Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different*
subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was
already factored in?
If the answer to this question is a significant yes, I'll push with
Walnut Creek CDROM to set something up.
We are starting to get significant donations now and while we're still
nowhere near the point where we could actually hire people with the
funds available, that's definitely a goal of mine.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:15:29 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:14:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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>I think the real question we need to answer here is:
>
> Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different*
> subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was
> already factored in?
Yea, I'd do this.
Brian
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:17:57 1998
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:44:29 PST."
<199803031844.KAA25807@rah.star-gate.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:16:42 -0800
Message-ID: <12000.888963402@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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>
> Dear Santa <jkh>,
>
> Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can
> have fine SMP granularity by Christmas?
http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html#591
(section 17.2.6.1 of the handbook)
:-)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:21:20 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:41:18 PST."
<XFMail.980303104118.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:19:33 -0800
Message-ID: <12025.888963573@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only $18,50.
> A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit to
> lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months.
Sounds kinda scary, really - I think I'd break the donation blocks
into more manageable chunks (and make the one year membership just a
bit more - $10 is almost not even worth the handling fee).
> Aside from voting, members are entitled to bitching about the stability of
> current for free. All others must donate a non-refundable $3.00/complaint.
> Lifetime members can cross post their complaint to as many mailing lists as
> they want.
Yeah, right. :-)
I'm assuming you're not serious in that particular paragraph (and if you
were, I'd demand $1,000,000 a year for the right to cross-post to as many
mailing lists as they wanted - I HATE that :).
> To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all
> corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs 35
> times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting rights.
That would be political suicide.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:22:47 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:06:52 -0800
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
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To: "Alok K. Dhir" <adhir@worldbank.org>
CC: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
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Alok K. Dhir wrote:
>
> Mind explaining what soft-updates does?
>
Soft Updates is a method of keeping track of teh dependencies
within the metadata of a filesystem, so that you can ensure
that at every stage, the on-disk image is consistent. It
includes such techniques as temporarily backing out certain
changes during disk writes, and queuing up a lot
of extra information.
This seems a lot of work, however the gain is that:
1/ after a crash fsck is not really required.
(except to recover blocks marked in use but really freed in
the last few seconds of running before the crash)
2/ The writes are ALL (unles you do a fsync()) done async,
3/ The dependencies automatically notice things like:
"I'm about to write a file but it's already been deleted"
and cancels the operation.
4/ metadata operations such as deletion are grouped up and
done in bulk which is WAY faster.
(that's just a quick start)
julian
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:27:13 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 23:30:02 +0100
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From: Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>
To: tomdean@ix.netcom.com
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803031642.IAA02175@ix.netcom.com> (message from Thomas Dean
on Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:42:18 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current
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>>>>> Thomas Dean writes:
> I see your problem.
> Did you compile pot? What is the output of the build/make commands?
It is created with a command like
c++ -o pot pot.cc Matrice.o c.o -L/home/jmz/eigen -L/usr/local/lib\
-leigen -leispack -llapack -lblas -lf2c -lm
I can provide the sources, the only problem is that it requires several
external libs.
Jean-Marc
_____________________________________________________________________________
Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex
PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:29:53 1998
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From: Shawn Leas <sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com>
To: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Donations (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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And I too, would subscribe. Maybe even a lifetime membership as
previously suggested.
I also think, however, it's time to change the name of this thread. Maybe
include -questions in the discussion, too? (If it isn't already, I
haven't been paying significant attention)
Kudos to WC, for there support to the project.
Shawn
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Brian Handy wrote:
> >I think the real question we need to answer here is:
> >
> > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different*
> > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was
> > already factored in?
>
>
> Yea, I'd do this.
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:34:39 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:41:17 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
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On 03-Mar-98 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only
>> $18,50.
>> A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit to
>> lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months.
>
> Sounds kinda scary, really - I think I'd break the donation blocks
> into more manageable chunks (and make the one year membership just a
> bit more - $10 is almost not even worth the handling fee).
I think the processing fee is about 2.9%. There is a transaction fee of
$0.50, or so. The main problem is in clearing. If we want an SSL
clearance, it is expensive. If we just provide a secure channel to pass
credit cards unmolested, it will be much cheaper. The number of bounces
and disputes is exponentially tied to the cost of the transactions.
Why am I telling YOU that? Your company does more of these transactions in
a day than I did in a year...
>> Aside from voting, members are entitled to bitching about the stability
>> of
>> current for free. All others must donate a non-refundable
>> $3.00/complaint.
>> Lifetime members can cross post their complaint to as many mailing lists
>> as
>> they want.
>
> Yeah, right. :-)
>
> I'm assuming you're not serious in that particular paragraph (and if you
> were, I'd demand $1,000,000 a year for the right to cross-post to as many
> mailing lists as they wanted - I HATE that :).
I am not. But I think we should consider some ``deliverables'' for the
membership. The AARP gives you a discount card (for their overpried
pharmacy), the NRA gives you a sticker and a cap. Most charities guarantee
that they will flood you with guilt generating material from other
charities, and a picture of a sad child (who will smile once your money
comes in), etc.
We cannot make the source part of the deliverables. Discounting the CD's
is out of the question, because this will make your company donate even
more. We need something.
Remember what the X consortium did (still do?)? Those who forgot; In
FreeBSD terms, only consortium members have access to current. non members
get only access to -stable. Bad idea...
>> To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all
>> corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs 35
>> times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting
>> rights.
>
> That would be political suicide.
That was another attempt to be funny. To be serious, you have to decide
what is to be voted on. Avoid the Debians...
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:35:32 1998
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From: Barry Lustig <barry@lustig.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 17:27:49 -0500
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
Reply-To: barry@lustig.com
References: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980303164538.6994B-100000@shadow.worldbank.org>
<34FC7EFC.237C228A@whistle.com>
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<nofill>Is anyone planning on back-porting soft-updates to 2.5.X?
barry
On Tue, 03 Mar 1998, Julian Elischer wrote:
> Alok K. Dhir wrote:
>
> Mind explaining what soft-updates does?
>
>
>
> Soft Updates is a method of keeping track of teh dependencies
> within the metadata of a filesystem, so that you can ensure
> that at every stage, the on-disk image is consistent. It
> includes such techniques as temporarily backing out certain
> changes during disk writes, and queuing up a lot
> of extra information.
>
> This seems a lot of work, however the gain is that:
> 1/ after a crash fsck is not really required.
> (except to recover blocks marked in use but really freed in
> the last few seconds of running before the crash)
> 2/ The writes are ALL (unles you do a fsync()) done async,
> 3/ The dependencies automatically notice things like:
> "I'm about to write a file but it's already been deleted"
> and cancels the operation.
> 4/ metadata operations such as deletion are grouped up and
> done in bulk which is WAY faster.
>
> (that's just a quick start)
>
> julian
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
</nofill>
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From: Thomas Dean <tomdean@ix.netcom.com>
To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG
CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@freebsd.org)
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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Hi Jordan,
I get a lot out of FreeBSD. The people working on FreeBSD have helped
me lots.
I don't know about subscription. The subscription rates are about $45
per year, assuming 3 updates per year. I would be willing to kick in
$50 to $100 a year directly to the team, no CD's. Possibly more, it
there is more rapid advancement.
I have purchased two FreeBSD CD's. However, I get the updates I want
from the net. I really don't need more CD's. If I want one, it is
only $30+-.
I would go for something that gives 5% to a handler and the remainder
to the team. Is this possible?
tomdean
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:38:26 1998
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To: freebsd@isvara.net
cc: FreeBSD Current <current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:01:49 GMT."
<34FC539D.44DC7452@challenge.isvara.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:37:15 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> FreeBSD is well known for it's stability and performance operating as a serve
r, and
> Manchester Computing uses it extensively. 8-)
"Go Manchester United!" :-)
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:41:04 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:26:50 -0800
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
CC: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>,
Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> > I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD
> > people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.)
> > I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a
> > donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some
> > small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying
> > the big bucks for it.
>
> I think the real question we need to answer here is:
>
> Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different*
> subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was
> already factored in?
I think that this is a better idea because thte cost of the visa
transaction is already factored into the cost of the cdrom.
I think that an option to donate some extra directly to the freebsd.org
when you buy a cdrom would be a very easy way of allowing
people to donate.. I don't know that it should be limited to
subscriptions.
>
> If the answer to this question is a significant yes, I'll push with
> Walnut Creek CDROM to set something up.
>
> We are starting to get significant donations now and while we're still
> nowhere near the point where we could actually hire people with the
> funds available, that's definitely a goal of mine.
>
> Jordan
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:43:07 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
cc: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
handy@sag.space.lockheed.com
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:21:17 PST."
<XFMail.980303112117.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:39:28 -0800
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> Every 500th caller gets a Debian CD (to go with the Penguin).
>
> I think we are on a roll here. Great Ideas!
Uhhh.. I think we are on drugs here - is this the silly season
or WHAT folks? :-)
JOrdan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:43:11 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
cc: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:59:26 PST."
<XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:22:56 -0800
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> The opportunities here are endless. Any Lawyer out there to incorporate,
> patent, copyright and declare these undoable?
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd like to declare them undoable on account
of the fact that they're all unbelievably stupid. :-)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:43:13 1998
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From: Shawn Leas <sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only $18,50.
> > A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit to
> > lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months.
>
> Sounds kinda scary, really - I think I'd break the donation blocks
> into more manageable chunks (and make the one year membership just a
> bit more - $10 is almost not even worth the handling fee).
Maybe the membership thing is a little inflexible, however, if you want
to donate, donate! Membership doesn't have to be the only way to
contribute.
> I'm assuming you're not serious in that particular paragraph (and if you
> were, I'd demand $1,000,000 a year for the right to cross-post to as many
> mailing lists as they wanted - I HATE that :).
Selling exemption to netiquete is panamount to the pope selling
forgiveness in the old days of the catholic church. (Please don't take
this as a flame, catholics, it's just historical fact) I think the price
should be $1,000,000,000.
> > To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all
> > corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs 35
> > times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting rights.
Reject donations??? Maybe from Chinese interests who just want
political influence.
Shawn
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:45:44 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
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On 03-Mar-98 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> The opportunities here are endless. Any Lawyer out there to
>> incorporate,
>> patent, copyright and declare these undoable?
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but I'd like to declare them undoable on account
> of the fact that they're all unbelievably stupid. :-)
Of course they are. What kind of a reason is that?
The concept is not bad. Is it?
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:46:38 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:46:08 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
Cc: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>,
Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:08:52PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
[... walnut creek rules ...]
> All these things benefit them as well in their CD sales, of course,
> but it's certainly true to say that if we were wholly independant,
> we'd have to scrape together the funding for such things ourselves and
> it wouldn't be cheap.
/me whispers "maybe walnut creek could process CC donmations too, for a small
fee."
--
//Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=-
\\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=-
aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:48:21 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:47:28 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
Cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980303084641.20771A-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com> <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:03:38PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> I think the real question we need to answer here is:
>
> Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different*
> subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was
> already factored in?
I would subscribe to a subscription plan whose purpose was solely a donation
to FreeBSD. If you really wanna send me a CD though, I wouldn't mind. :)
--
//Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=-
\\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=-
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:51:23 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:58:02 -0800 (PST)
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Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 03-Mar-98 Mikael Karpberg wrote:
...
> Do you have the means to set a secure-http server with a link from the
> somewhere on www.freebsd.org, and just have a form where you fill in
> a credicard number and an amount, actually get that money into an
> account?
I have at least two servers which are physically as secure as I am.
The link to them is secure too. Once they hit the Internet ... ?
But the servers are both in my home, so it is as good as it gets.
> What creditcards would you be able to handle?
> VISA is all _I_ need, but... :-)
Vias and MC. AmEx is too expensive, picky, snooty, and requires their own
clearance center.
> How big/small payments would this have to be for the bank to cash them,
> etc?
Zero and up. Anything smaller than $2.50 or so is a nag but they are used
to it.
> I mean, if you could actually get something togather that works fairly
> well,
> (and we can trust you :) then I don't think the coreteam would MIND a
> little funds rolling in. ;-)
Now, this is a tough question :-) Trust is subjective. The last thing I
have stolen is my wife's heart. I still have it.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:54:50 1998
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From: Andreas Braukmann <braukmann@tse-online.de>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
References: <XFMail.980303104529.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> <199803031844.KAA25807@rah.star-gate.com>
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> Dear Santa <jkh>,
> Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can
> have fine SMP granularity by Christmas?
... naturally as stable as 2.2-stable.
hmm, I would throw another $100 if the christmas-release would
come additionally with a 'real-locking' NFS-Server and
100%-stable NFS-V3-Client.
-ab
--
/// We do it with FreeBSD/SMP
/// ----------------------------------------
/// http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:59:13 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:30:01 PST."
<199803032130.NAA17979@dingo.cdrom.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:57:26 -0800
Message-ID: <12436.888965846@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> Seriously, accepting credit card donations is expensive work. Aside
> from the 5% cut that the bank gets, you have to treat the money like
> it's on elastic.
>
> And unless you have someone else handling it for you, you won't get a
> bank's attention until you're talking in six figures a year.
It's not a problem - WC has already agreed to handle this for us, we
just never followed through with the appropriate information being
made available to the user base. See previous mail about this one -
I'm moving forward with it now.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:00:49 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:07:26 -0800 (PST)
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Shawn Leas <sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
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"Jordan K.Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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On 03-Mar-98 Shawn Leas wrote:
>
> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
>> > Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only
>> > $18,50.
>> > A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit
>> > to
>> > lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months.
>>
>> Sounds kinda scary, really - I think I'd break the donation blocks
>> into more manageable chunks (and make the one year membership just a
>> bit more - $10 is almost not even worth the handling fee).
>
> Maybe the membership thing is a little inflexible, however, if you want
> to donate, donate! Membership doesn't have to be the only way to
> contribute.
Of course you are right. We will take any legal money from anyone who
gives it to us.
>> I'm assuming you're not serious in that particular paragraph (and if you
>> were, I'd demand $1,000,000 a year for the right to cross-post to as
>> many
>> mailing lists as they wanted - I HATE that :).
>
> Selling exemption to netiquete is panamount to the pope selling
> forgiveness in the old days of the catholic church. (Please don't take
> this as a flame, catholics, it's just historical fact) I think the price
> should be $1,000,000,000.
Lighten up, people. I wanted Jordan to respond. I got his response.
I't is a joke. The serious part is coming up with a series of incentives.
Remember, the number of eager contributors is less than a thousand. At
$10.00 a pop, this will keep Steve in the SMP business for 2 days (at his
rates :-). We need to attract the reluctant, the lazy, the indifferent.
This will take some doing. Now that you all agree which is absurd,
immoral, crazy, suecidal, etc. Come up with real suggestions.
>> > To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all
>> > corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs
>> > 35
>> > times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting
>> > rights.
>
> Reject donations??? Maybe from Chinese interests who just want
> political influence.
You are tempting an old anarchist here... :-) Chinees donations are FINE
in my opinion. this is not Washington DC. Core members will NOT be baught
for mere money. Neither will the voters. Besides, it is open books all
the way.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:02:35 1998
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980303141405.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 02:14:05 pm"
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:29:37 +0100 (CET)
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According to Simon Shapiro:
> I volunteer to setup the operation, collect the funds, disburse it under
> CORE direction, etc. I will NOT make decisions for them.
Do you have the means to set a secure-http server with a link from the
somewhere on www.freebsd.org, and just have a form where you fill in
a credicard number and an amount, actually get that money into an account?
What creditcards would you be able to handle?
VISA is all _I_ need, but... :-)
How big/small payments would this have to be for the bank to cash them, etc?
I mean, if you could actually get something togather that works fairly well,
(and we can trust you :) then I don't think the coreteam would MIND a little
funds rolling in. ;-)
/Mikael
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:05:01 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:22:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Kyle Mestery <mestery@winternet.com>
To: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Brian Handy wrote:
> >I think the real question we need to answer here is:
> >
> > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different*
> > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was
> > already factored in?
>
>
> Yea, I'd do this.
>
Count me in also.
--
Kyle Mestery
StorageTek's Network Systems Group
"Keep honking, I'm reloading."
"Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math."
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:11:37 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:11:06 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Shawn Leas <sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com>
Cc: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>,
"Jordan K.Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: FreeBSD Fund
References: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980303163000.21704B-100000@mn26hp6.honeywell.com> <XFMail.980303150726.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 03:07:26PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote:
> Lighten up, people. I wanted Jordan to respond. I got his response.
> I't is a joke. The serious part is coming up with a series of incentives.
> Remember, the number of eager contributors is less than a thousand. At
> $10.00 a pop, this will keep Steve in the SMP business for 2 days (at his
> rates :-). We need to attract the reluctant, the lazy, the indifferent.
> This will take some doing. Now that you all agree which is absurd,
> immoral, crazy, suecidal, etc. Come up with real suggestions.
given that Windows95 costs like $80 or something at the store, i would expect
better educated people who are more heavily in to computers would think
FreeBSD is worth a little more than $10.
I'm thinking $50, but that's because I'm a poor college student.
Reluctant, lazy and indifferent is not yet our userbase. While an option in
sysinstall that promises tote bags and plush demons would be ideal, I think
a lot of us would at least for the time being be content with an SSL web form
where we plug in our credit card number.
Let's get the walking down before we start running flat out on this eh? :)
--
//Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=-
\\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=-
aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:14:51 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:14:31 +0100
From: Andreas Braukmann <braukmann@tse-online.de>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com> <Pine.OSF.3.96.980303141427.26591A-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com>
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> > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different*
> > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was
> > already factored in?
> Yea, I'd do this.
me too. (no, ... I'm not posting from aol ;-))
It's definitly the easiest way to pay for free software. (for me)
We're a quite young business and can't spend really much money on
FreeBSD. Everybody - including some of our shareholders - knows that
FreeBSD (our strategic server-platform) is a free piece of software.
If I would donate a significant amount of money to the FreeBSD-project
for appearantly no reason, they would ask me about that (for sure :()
I would have no problems with the following solutions:
- some kind of 'high-end' / 'premier-support' subscription
for the release-CDs
- printed documentation
- membership in some kind of 'user group'
-ab
--
/// TSE TeleService GmbH | Gsf: Arne Reuter |
/// Hovestrasse 14 | Andreas Braukmann | We do it with
/// D-48351 Everswinkel | HRB: 1430, AG WAF | FreeBSD/SMP
/// -------------------------------------------------------------------
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/// Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Donations.
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:26:41 -0800
Message-ID: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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I'm not sure if this made it out and I don't see it in the archive,
so... [gotta check my mailer - this has been happening a lot lately]
Just to recap our discussion so far and then we can (hopefully) get
back to the business of discussing -current:
1. I can accept the following credit cards:
American Express
Carte Blanche
Diners Club
Discover
Euro Card
JCB
Master Card
Visa
I just need to get the appropriate details ironed out as to what
the customer will put on the debit so that Walnut Creek CDROM knows
that it's going to us.
2. We will be setting things up so that donations may be given over
the phone, in PGP encrypted email or via a secure web server. The
infrastructure for doing all of this already exists, we just need to
enter a new order code type so that WC can keep the transactions
straight.
3. I will be looking into the possibility of a "super subscription"
which includes a donation. I will also look into putting some sort
of checkbox item next to the appropriate FreeBSD CD order forms which
say something like "Would you like to include a donation to the FreeBSD
Project?" and gives you a place to fill in the amount.
I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost
increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed
daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments.
Anything else while we're on the topic? :)
Thanks.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:40:38 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:39:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, sthaug@nethelp.no,
dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
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I'm not much interested in CD subscriptions, as they are out of date by
the time they arrive.
What about a special net subscription, which gives you a login id and
password for a FTP/WWW server that gives you guarrenteed access? I hate
it when I need to get something (last time was a copy of committlogs to
see what had changes in libc_r), and ftp.freebsd.org is full.
Also, another subscription service that would interesting in binary
patchkits via the net. Send out e-mail to paying members notifying of
them of significant patch kits available, and provide a single command
interface for install. You'd have to pay for a part-time person to keep
together a patch-building system though. I personally spend a _lot_ of
resources doing this via buildworld, installworld, etc. I wonder how many
more companies do this.
Tom
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:41:40 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:59:26 PST."
<XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:38:10 -0800
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>$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
That'll be sure to kill it. :-)
-DG
David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:46:14 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:43:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Shawn Leas <sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com>
To: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980303150726.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote:
> On 03-Mar-98 Shawn Leas wrote:
> > Selling exemption to netiquete is panamount to the pope selling
> > forgiveness in the old days of the catholic church. (Please don't take
> > this as a flame, catholics, it's just historical fact) I think the price
> > should be $1,000,000,000.
>
> Lighten up, people. I wanted Jordan to respond. I got his response.
> I't is a joke. The serious part is coming up with a series of incentives.
> Remember, the number of eager contributors is less than a thousand. At
> $10.00 a pop, this will keep Steve in the SMP business for 2 days (at his
> rates :-). We need to attract the reluctant, the lazy, the indifferent.
> This will take some doing. Now that you all agree which is absurd,
> immoral, crazy, suecidal, etc. Come up with real suggestions.
Hey man, just having fun! OK, suggestion #1:
BEWARE: RANTINGS OF A BORED DEPRIVED CAFFEINE ADDICT AHEAD
I saw mentioned before a "corporate" membership. Hey, I kinda like the
idea. Maybe a new members-only mailing list dedicated to the support of
corporate members would attract the corporate sector. As long as it is
exclusive, (I know, I'm selling my soul to corp. america) big companies
like that.
Heavily push the warm fuzy fealing of the resource being there, just for
you, the member. Whether FreeBSD Inc is contractually obligated to solve
your problem or not, I think it is a big selling (*oops*, there's that
word) point.
> > Reject donations??? Maybe from Chinese interests who just want
> > political influence.
>
> You are tempting an old anarchist here... :-) Chinees donations are FINE
> in my opinion. this is not Washington DC. Core members will NOT be baught
> for mere money. Neither will the voters. Besides, it is open books all
> the way.
C'mon, now, I didn't mean to raise anyones ire. And you're right, this is
NOT DC. At least our guys have souls, and I am sure that they are far
from selling them, too.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:49:09 1998
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To: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:39:05 PST."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980303152949.12911C-100000@shell.uniserve.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:48:10 -0800
Message-ID: <12923.888968890@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> What about a special net subscription, which gives you a login id and
> password for a FTP/WWW server that gives you guarrenteed access? I hate
> it when I need to get something (last time was a copy of committlogs to
> see what had changes in libc_r), and ftp.freebsd.org is full.
Hmmm. I'd sooner set up another FTP server - I really don't want to
get into anything which creates a set of "haves and have-nots", even
if the haves have spent money for it, since things start to get a
little dubious at that point. A one-time gift for a donation is one
thing, but as soon as you start having FreeBSD more accessible to
those who've paid or put special features in it that only paid
customers can have (modulo 3rd party stuff where you've no choice),
people start wondering whether you're a free software project anymore.
I'm not denying the potential value of this to frustrated "I can't get
into ftp.freebsd.org and I paid them ten bucks!" customers, I'm simply
saying that we have to be careful. If people are having serious
trouble in getting the bits then we simply need to get more boxes
built and shipped off to various sympathetic ISPs. Perhaps FreeBSD,
Inc. can look into doing that with some of its funds if this is a
serious problem.
> Also, another subscription service that would interesting in binary
> patchkits via the net. Send out e-mail to paying members notifying of
> them of significant patch kits available, and provide a single command
*shudder*. :-)
Again, I can see the value in it but it would be a hellish job for such
a person. I'll keep it in mind but not too much in mind. :)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:53:56 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:26:41 PST."
<12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Yeap, I would like to see one of those fancy java news sticker.
Who knows maybe Yahoo wold care to donate theirs. Whats the connection
with the FreeBSD Fund Raising Project? Simple spread the word .
Maybe we could even extent the news sticker idea to a world wide
local news network complet with AD space.
For now, the news sticker , should we decide is a cool idea , should
go on www.freebsd.org . <Donate today, http://www.thinker.org 65000
images currently being served by FreeBSD, Have you ever crammed 20000 users
on your PC box. http://www.best.net , did , Yahoo, runs on FreeBSD >
Well, okay I am not much of news clip artist. I am sure we have
journalists in the house.
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:57:47 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:56:47 +1100
From: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>
Organization: SCITEC LIMITED
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To: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <199803031505.QAA14228@ocean.campus.luth.se>
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Mikael Karpberg wrote:
> How about another? WC could sell stickers with a text like
> "I support the FreeBSD project"...
How 'bout T shirts as well...or are these already available. I'm
geeky enough to wear one (but not black) in the right company ;-)
I would also like "Powered by FreeBSD" stickers to put on my ISP
servers to make it plainly obvious what is being used when we show
people around. A bit like the Intel Pentium Inside stickers.
If putting a few bucks in is what it will take to get stable (not
neccessarily fine grained) SMP into the kernel ASAP then my ISP
will donate. I've got a Tyan Tomcat server just itching for it,
and I'm considering a dual P-II for myself at home :-)
Cheers.
-- +------------------------------------------------------------+
. | John Saunders mailto:John.Saunders@scitec.com.au (Work) |
,--_|\ | mailto:john@nlc.net.au (Home) |
/ Oz \ | http://www.nlc.net.au/~john/ |
\_,--\_/ | SCITEC LIMITED Phone +61 2 9428 9563 Fax +61 2 9428 9933 |
v | "By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends." |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:01:12 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:00:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, sthaug@nethelp.no,
dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-Reply-To: <12923.888968890@time.cdrom.com>
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > What about a special net subscription, which gives you a login id and
> > password for a FTP/WWW server that gives you guarrenteed access? I hate
> > it when I need to get something (last time was a copy of committlogs to
> > see what had changes in libc_r), and ftp.freebsd.org is full.
>
> Hmmm. I'd sooner set up another FTP server - I really don't want to
Ok, doesn't really matter.
> get into anything which creates a set of "haves and have-nots", even
It wouldn't be the "haves" and "have-nots", just the "right now", "maybe
now" group. Everyone can get the same stuff.
...
> > Also, another subscription service that would interesting in binary
> > patchkits via the net. Send out e-mail to paying members notifying of
> > them of significant patch kits available, and provide a single command
>
> *shudder*. :-)
>
> Again, I can see the value in it but it would be a hellish job for such
> a person. I'll keep it in mind but not too much in mind. :)
Wasn't someone doing a patch kit thing for 2.2-stable?
Basically, this is a no-brainer. It costs companies money to maintain
FreeBSD. Basically this is "make buildworld" and/or "make release" on
some type of development machine, then then "make installworld" on every
server (once it is tested). How many organizations are doing this now?
Imagine the duplication of effort. These same companies could give
FreeBSD Inc $200/yr (or more) and save a LOT of money.
> Jordan
Tom
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:04:11 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com>
References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com>
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> Just to recap our discussion so far and then we can (hopefully) get
> back to the business of discussing -current:
>
> 1. I can accept the following credit cards:
...
> 3. I will be looking into the possibility of a "super subscription"
> which includes a donation.
My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the
ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the
understanding that it's only a hint. The PBS station does this, and the
way it works is that if you're happy with how your money is spent, you
may donate again in the future. The money could be spent as seen fit by
the administrator to attempt to support projects that are desired by the
users. If it doesn't work, no-one has lost money and/or face, but the
'success' of the project is seen by the follow-ons and the software
generated.
No one loses, and everyone gains. There are no expectations that had to
be met by the developers, and the developers feel no undue pressure to
do something they don't want to.
Whaddya think?
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:05:16 1998
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From: Shawn Leas <sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com>
To: Andreas Braukmann <braukmann@tse-online.de>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <19980304001431.28327@paert.tse-online.de>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Andreas Braukmann wrote:
> > > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different*
> > > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was
> > > already factored in?
> > Yea, I'd do this.
> me too. (no, ... I'm not posting from aol ;-))
>
> It's definitly the easiest way to pay for free software. (for me)
> We're a quite young business and can't spend really much money on
> FreeBSD. Everybody - including some of our shareholders - knows that
> FreeBSD (our strategic server-platform) is a free piece of software.
> If I would donate a significant amount of money to the FreeBSD-project
> for appearantly no reason, they would ask me about that (for sure :()
>
> I would have no problems with the following solutions:
> - some kind of 'high-end' / 'premier-support' subscription
> for the release-CDs
> - printed documentation
> - membership in some kind of 'user group'
Anyone have any input on the 'user group' angle? As Andreas pointed out,
a business will like to be able to justify its' donations in some
quantifiable fashion.
I do, however, warn against being percieved as being obligated
contractually to fix or do anything in a legal sense. Some of us have
seen corporate finger pointing before.
The user group approach is a nice way to go.
Shawn
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:09:43 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:08:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Shawn Leas <sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com>
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> I'm not sure if this made it out and I don't see it in the archive,
> so... [gotta check my mailer - this has been happening a lot lately]
>
> Just to recap our discussion so far and then we can (hopefully) get
> back to the business of discussing -current:
<snippage>
> I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost
> increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed
> daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments.
>
> Anything else while we're on the topic? :)
I've seen two ideas that catch my fancy.
1) The members only user group
2) The ftp/www login for access when ftp.freebsd.org is full
Both very attractive ideas.
Shawn
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:11:41 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, sthaug@nethelp.no,
dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:48:10 PST."
<12923.888968890@time.cdrom.com>
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:10:39 +1000
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From: George Michaelson <ggm@dstc.edu.au>
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This 'how to spend the money' thing is getting into twisty paths.
I suggest:
#1 lets not figure out how to spend what we don't have
#2 tied money is ALWAYS less useful than 'spend as you wish'
#3 is not called PAYbsd. Please don't lets make second-class netizens.
So I suggest that current not-for-profit trustees be just that: trusted.
-to spend with discretion on relevant activity. If it benefits people who pay,
it should benefit everybody else as well or it doesn't meet tax-free
requirements. Spending $$$ to pay people to finish off significant work, or
to buy h/w to make it possible, thats cool. The wider benefit is plain.
I'll shell my spare $$$ for some SMP work, and I don't even have an SMP box
right now. But I'll be mightily pissed off if this winds up being another
commercial venture. Making a priviledged access FTP area, or 'I saw it first'
subscription bugfixes is really not it.
Don't print buttons and badges unless the printing and distribution costs are
covered by some other money, or are massively outweighed by the donation coming
in. Its increadibly easy to eat up 30% or more of donated money in 'overheads'
which we don't need. It really pisses me off when I give to charity and find
that somebody makes 10% and on even a mil thats a damn big 'thankyou'..
Badges? we don't NEED no steenking BODGES!
So can we stop this thread, and leave somebody Like Jordan to hassle a web
engine with SSL and pgp online, and then just give the money, and go back
to sleep?
-George
PS those dudes running a massively loosely coupled image distribution thingy
should be given a big rouse. That is the kind of kick-ass promo FreeBSD
is about.
--
George Michaelson | DSTC Pty Ltd
Email: ggm@dstc.edu.au | University of Qld 4072
Phone: +61 7 3365 4310 | Australia
Fax: +61 7 3365 4311 | http://www.dstc.edu.au
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:13:11 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:29:41 -0500
From: Leo Papandreou <leo@talcom.net>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
References: <19980303140740.47554@urh.uiuc.edu> <6307.888955995@verdi.nethelp.no> <19980303141924.07830@urh.uiuc.edu>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:19:24PM -0600, dannyman wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 09:13:15PM +0100, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote:
>
> > I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier
> > for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention
> > the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller
> > than the value of the check itself...)
>
> That's right .. International users ...
>
> Over break, if nobody's beat me to it, late in March, I'll talk to my former
> employer about how one goes about getting a credit card thingus.
>
You mean merchant numbers? WC surely has them.
It would be rather simple to handle credit card donations considering
there is no imperative to process transactions in real time. If a
transaction turns out to be bogus, who cares? Nothing was shipped,
nothing gets charged back.
> I could envision a private company doing its part by acting as a
> fund-collecting proxy for FreeBSD ... CC registration can go to say, a loyal
> ISP who cuts a check every month to FreeBSD.
Ah.
Well, if people take exception to giving the money directly to WC
then, yeah, things arent quite so simple. FBSD will need its own
merchant numbers and banks are likely to ask for a sizeable deposit
if your transactions dont involve inked signatures.
There's also the possibility that merchant numbers cant be "loaned."
If that's the case, then FBSD will definitely need their own merchant
numbers.
Either that or one of several net "financing" companies like ibill.com.
I think credit card donations are an excellent idea. There's probably
a few politcal gotcha's since WC already donates time, money and
connectivity to FBSD. A separate source of income for FBSD is probably
not in their best interests under the current setup.
>
> And yes, it's a lot easier even for me in America to do credit card. Impulse
> purchase where i write a few numbers down, as opposed to going to an ATM to
> see if I have any money, digging up a security envelope and finding the
> stamp/address, etc ... I'd even be willing to "subscribe" $50/year or
> something. :)
>
> --
> //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=-
> \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=-
> aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
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To: dg@root.com
Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com>
References: <XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
<199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com>
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> >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
>
> That'll be sure to kill it. :-)
But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :)
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:18:59 1998
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To: dg@root.com
cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:38:10 PST."
<199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 01:12:48 +0100
Message-ID: <2891.888970368@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com>, David Greenman writes:
>>$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
>
> That'll be sure to kill it. :-)
>
>-DG
... or if the become too popular: kill you after making you the number
one entry in the Guiness World Records book.. :-)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:22:01 1998
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To: barry@lustig.com
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Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
References: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980303164538.6994B-100000@shadow.worldbank.org>
<34FC7EFC.237C228A@whistle.com> <19980303222750.1133.qmail@devious.lustig.com>
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NO
(though you could try... you could make it a completely removable option
with appropriate ifdefs.)
but the VM interactions would be different
and the vfs interface has changed a bit.
but it might hurt 2.2's stability.
Barry Lustig wrote:
>
> Is anyone planning on back-porting soft-updates to 2.5.X?
> barry
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe
> freebsd-current" in the body of the message
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To: George Michaelson <ggm@dstc.edu.au>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, Tom <tom@uniserve.com>,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, sthaug@nethelp.no,
dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:10:39 +1000."
<12876.888970239@dstc.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 01:17:33 +0100
Message-ID: <2953.888970653@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <12876.888970239@dstc.edu.au>, George Michaelson writes:
>
>This 'how to spend the money' thing is getting into twisty paths.
>
>I suggest:
>
>#1 lets not figure out how to spend what we don't have
>
>#2 tied money is ALWAYS less useful than 'spend as you wish'
This is a very important point in my eyes, if there are too many
strings attached, it will not make things any better.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:28:49 1998
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To: Leo Papandreou <leo@talcom.net>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 18:29:41 EST."
<19980303182941.57473@homer.supersex.com>
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>
> I think credit card donations are an excellent idea. There's probably
> a few politcal gotcha's since WC already donates time, money and
> connectivity to FBSD. A separate source of income for FBSD is probably
> not in their best interests under the current setup.
I would advise against putting words in WC's mouth. Jordan is probably
the only person that you should listen to for comment here, as he can
speak for both Walnut Creek CDROM and for FreeBSD Inc., both of whom
can play a useful part in making donations both easy and accountable.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:59:35 MST."
<199803032359.QAA03675@mt.sri.com>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:31:57 -0800
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>> >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
>>
>> That'll be sure to kill it. :-)
>
>But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :)
Yeah, I mean...I'm not usually even *awake* yet at lunch time. :-)
-DG
David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:36:18 1998
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From: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
Reply-To: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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>My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the
>ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the
>understanding that it's only a hint. [...]
>Whaddya think?
I sort of agree with this. My interests are actually with things *other*
than SMP (I subscribe to the "MIPS are cheaper than whitebread" theory),
but hey, if suddenly we came up with a zillion bucks to hook our SMP guy
back up to the life support, that'd be great. But in the background, I'll
*still* be grousing about how I want SparQ drives supported. :-)
As for the "membership only" mailing lists, I think that's a going nowhere
idea. Who's going to provide the answers for this list? There's a spread
of talent on this list that you will *not* replicate on a closed list, so
it seems that while corporate folks could sure pay for it, they wouldn't
in fact get anything useful for it. I can imagine the scenario where
something from the -corporate list gets copied to -current, since nobody
who paid to be on the -corporate list can figure out how to deal with the
problem.
\
Brian
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:36:43 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:42:56 -0800 (PST)
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Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
Subject: RE: FreeBSD Fund
Cc: "Jordan K.Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>,
Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>,
Shawn Leas <sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com>
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On 03-Mar-98 dannyman wrote:
...
> given that Windows95 costs like $80 or something at the store, i would
> expect
> better educated people who are more heavily in to computers would think
> FreeBSD is worth a little more than $10.
If this argument had any validity, DOS would have disapeared in 1985 and
Bill Gates would have either been selling used cars, running for Congress,
or both.
> I'm thinking $50, but that's because I'm a poor college student.
Too much money. My military monthly salary was $27.50.
I would like the ``donate as much as you like'' approach, but that will not
be too effective. Esablish a scale:
10-20-30-50-corporate-contributor-lifetime or some such list.
Another idea: ``Round-Up''
In addition, and in parallel with any other program: Any one who sellls
FreeBSD stuff (WC?) estabishes a round-up program. When you buy a CD for
29.95 (is this the price? I have no clue), you can tell the order taker
(or enter into the web form, whatever) to round up your order to cost+N.
N goes directly to FreeBSD. A bit more of book-keeping but the vendor gets
to display a special logo, the user is caught with his/her hand literally
in their pocket (cannot say ``I do not have it'' :-), and FreeBSD gets more
money.
> Reluctant, lazy and indifferent is not yet our userbase. While an option
> in
> sysinstall that promises tote bags and plush demons would be ideal, I
> think
> a lot of us would at least for the time being be content with an SSL web
> form
> where we plug in our credit card number.
I beg to differ. In any social group, there is a small active minority, a
large passive majority, and (in most cultures) a minor disruptive fringe
group. I bet you not all half million FreeBSD users contribute code,
purchase CDs, report bugs, or do anything except take what is offered for
free and use it.
> Let's get the walking down before we start running flat out on this eh?
>:)
Of course. We need:
a. Ownership/Board-of-Directors decision that this is what they want to do.
b. Control structure; Who collects the money, who supervises the money, who
disburses the money.
c. Guidelines; What we will not do, what we will not accept, what
we will.
d. Collection Plan: This is what we are going to do to get the money
e. Disbursement Plan: Here is how we will spend the money
f. Imlepemntation
g. Activation and feedback analysis
h. Enahancements
Since this is getting serious:
a. Is this list the best forum for this discussion?
b. I have a list of reservations about the whole thing. Not to say I
oppose it, but there are issues that should be surfaced.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:38:50 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:45:32 -0800 (PST)
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On 03-Mar-98 David Greenman wrote:
>>$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
>
> That'll be sure to kill it. :-)
>
> -DG
>
> David Greenman
> Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
^ ^ ^
| | |
+------+----------+------> You are too modest.
BTW, Until I posted this one, you did not pipe up on this silly/serious
issue :-) Now I know how to get both you and Jordan to respond :-))
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:40:32 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com
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On 03-Mar-98 Nate Williams wrote:
>> >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
>>
>> That'll be sure to kill it. :-)
>
> But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :)
Yeah! Nate gets the first Dinner with DG button, as soon as his donation
check cashes.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:40:33 1998
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
cc: George Michaelson <ggm@dstc.edu.au>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
Tom <tom@uniserve.com>, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org,
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 01:17:33 +0100."
<2953.888970653@critter.freebsd.dk>
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:39:53 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Depends on the understanding.
Let re-phrase my donation: I am willing to donate $25 and would
love to see cool SMP support. So vote with your wallet!
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:45:13 1998
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Thomas Dean wrote:
> > Dear Santa <jkh>,
> >
> > Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can
> > have fine SMP granularity by Christmas?
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Amancio
>
> Me too.
Me too. <aol-blush>
(In cash though, overseas bank transfers cost more than $25 extra...)
Ben
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:47:05 1998
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To: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: SparQ drives (was Re: Donations. )
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:33:17 PST."
<Pine.OSF.3.96.980303162618.26591J-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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>
> I sort of agree with this. My interests are actually with things *other*
> than SMP (I subscribe to the "MIPS are cheaper than whitebread" theory),
> but hey, if suddenly we came up with a zillion bucks to hook our SMP guy
> back up to the life support, that'd be great. But in the background, I'll
> *still* be grousing about how I want SparQ drives supported. :-)
Er, they are. In fact, they probably work with 2.0; the SparQ just
looks like an IDE disk. (Yes, FTL has one.)
I'm not sure I can recommend them, as we've had one of two arrive DOA,
and they're about as cheap a POS as you ever saw, but when they work
they seem to be OK.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:49:33 1998
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Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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> >> >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
> >>
> >> That'll be sure to kill it. :-)
> >
> > But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :)
>
> Yeah! Nate gets the first Dinner with DG button, as soon as his donation
> check cashes.
I'm not going to donate cash to the project. I've donated thousands of
hours and $$ of my own already, and plan to continue donating my time.
But, I have been to dinner with a number of core members. :)
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:08:45 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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On 04-Mar-98 Nate Williams wrote:
>> >> >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
>> >>
>> >> That'll be sure to kill it. :-)
>> >
>> > But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :)
>>
>> Yeah! Nate gets the first Dinner with DG button, as soon as his
>> donation
>> check cashes.
>
> I'm not going to donate cash to the project. I've donated thousands of
> hours and $$ of my own already, and plan to continue donating my time.
> But, I have been to dinner with a number of core members. :)
This is why a Contributor class is needed.
If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-)
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:22:11 1998
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To: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:00:30 PST."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980303155247.12911D-100000@shell.uniserve.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:21:11 -0800
Message-ID: <13636.888974471@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> Basically, this is a no-brainer. It costs companies money to maintain
> FreeBSD. Basically this is "make buildworld" and/or "make release" on
> some type of development machine, then then "make installworld" on every
> server (once it is tested). How many organizations are doing this now?
> Imagine the duplication of effort. These same companies could give
> FreeBSD Inc $200/yr (or more) and save a LOT of money.
It sounds a lot like the bindist from a SNAP CD to me. :-)
Jordan
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:54:27 +1030
From: Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
Organization: Defence Science Technology Organisation
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com>
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Please avoid lifetime entitlements to things that cost the project
to produce. i.e. Snapshot CD's, network bandwidth etc.
Unfunded liabilities can really kill a nice idea.
Maybe two years should be the maximum time for any entitlement.
(Then they will have to pay again to renew their entitlement - At
least the project will then have regular income to fund these things).
Of course the entitlement subscriptions should all be a reasonable
price with the ability to pay more on the understanding that the
extra money is purely a donation only.
I like the idea of being able to suggest what development you're
interested in.
The donation web page should have pick lists and check boxes for
people to indicate what they are most interested in for near future
development. Then we can automatically generate stats on what
people want to see.
Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if this made it out and I don't see it in the archive,
> so... [gotta check my mailer - this has been happening a lot lately]
>
> Just to recap our discussion so far and then we can (hopefully) get
> back to the business of discussing -current:
>
> 1. I can accept the following credit cards:
> American Express
> Carte Blanche
> Diners Club
> Discover
> Euro Card
> JCB
> Master Card
> Visa
>
> I just need to get the appropriate details ironed out as to what
> the customer will put on the debit so that Walnut Creek CDROM knows
> that it's going to us.
>
> 2. We will be setting things up so that donations may be given over
> the phone, in PGP encrypted email or via a secure web server. The
> infrastructure for doing all of this already exists, we just need to
> enter a new order code type so that WC can keep the transactions
> straight.
>
> 3. I will be looking into the possibility of a "super subscription"
> which includes a donation. I will also look into putting some sort
> of checkbox item next to the appropriate FreeBSD CD order forms which
> say something like "Would you like to include a donation to the FreeBSD
> Project?" and gives you a place to fill in the amount.
>
> I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost
> increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed
> daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments.
>
> Anything else while we're on the topic? :)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jordan
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
--
Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249
Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537
Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Salisbury
PO Box 1500 Salisbury South Australia 5108
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:25:15 1998
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To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:03:43 MST."
<199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:24:09 -0800
Message-ID: <13664.888974649@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the
> ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the
How is this any different than people being able to give us hints
(via the mailing lists) now? Or are you asking for a comment field
specifically on the donation card, or something?
I probably won't actually be *doing* donation cards as such in any
case since they're something of a pain and don't really return much
(Rich Morin of Prime Time Freeware did this on behalf of the FSF and
got something like 2 donations for every 1000 cards sent out).
> understanding that it's only a hint. The PBS station does this, and the
> way it works is that if you're happy with how your money is spent, you
Sort of - the PBS stations around here just hold telethons and take
your money, then you find out whether you liked what they did with it
when you watch the station for the next year; I've never been able to
influence their programming schedule in any way that I can see, despite
being a frequent donor to KQED. :)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:26:10 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:26:08 -0500
From: Leo Papandreou <leo@talcom.net>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
References: <19980303182941.57473@homer.supersex.com> <199803040025.QAA18908@dingo.cdrom.com>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:25:34PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> >
> > I think credit card donations are an excellent idea. There's probably
> > a few politcal gotcha's since WC already donates time, money and
> > connectivity to FBSD. A separate source of income for FBSD is probably
> > not in their best interests under the current setup.
>
> I would advise against putting words in WC's mouth. Jordan is probably
> the only person that you should listen to for comment here, as he can
> speak for both Walnut Creek CDROM and for FreeBSD Inc., both of whom
> can play a useful part in making donations both easy and accountable.
>
Well, sure; I was just speculating idly. Personally I see nothing
wrong with WC handling the transactions.
> --
> \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
> \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
> \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
> \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
>
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:29:22 1998
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To: Leo Papandreou <leo@talcom.net>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 18:29:41 EST."
<19980303182941.57473@homer.supersex.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:28:29 -0800
Message-ID: <13715.888974909@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> I think credit card donations are an excellent idea. There's probably
> a few politcal gotcha's since WC already donates time, money and
> connectivity to FBSD. A separate source of income for FBSD is probably
> not in their best interests under the current setup.
Are you talking about WC here? Actually, they're more than in
favor of the idea and are now also talking about setting up a tech
support organization for FreeBSD where some percentage of all fees
collected would go to the project. We're currently researching the
feasability of setting up another phone line and creating a web-based
tech support queue.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:29:40 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:28:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
cc: dg@root.com, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <2891.888970368@critter.freebsd.dk>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> ... or if the become too popular: kill you after making you the number
> one entry in the Guiness World Records book.. :-)
Actually that isn't a bad idea seriously. Someone should call guiness and
see if there is a world record for the ammount of simultaneous users on a
PC. I mean of all the stupid categories and things in guiness, that would
be KILLER bragging rights for FreeBSD :) To be listed in guiness as the
worlds most heavily used FTP machine. Most of us already know this, but to
be able to point to the guiness book of world records when talking to
clients or whatnot would be pretty cool! :)
Jordan, or david should call guiness :)
Chris
--
"I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out."
===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting.
FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800
-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152
FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net
http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security
===================================| http://open-systems.net
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:30:28 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
CC: nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com
In-reply-to: <XFMail.980303171450.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> (message from Simon Shapiro on Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:14:50 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami)
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* This is why a Contributor class is needed.
*
* If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-)
Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member.
Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or
dinner with any of you guys. :)
(My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something? ;)
Satoshi
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:42:25 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <13664.888974649@time.cdrom.com>
References: <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com>
<13664.888974649@time.cdrom.com>
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> > My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the
> > ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the
>
> How is this any different than people being able to give us hints
> (via the mailing lists) now? Or are you asking for a comment field
> specifically on the donation card, or something?
Sort of. If people feel like they have at least a 'say' in how they're
money is spent (w/out the obligation), we may get more 'return on
investment' if we use that money for those tasks (however thankless they
are) the 'masses' have asked for.
It more formalized than asking for hints on mailing lists, and has a bit
more weight in that the user requesting something has shown greater than
normal interest in FreeBSD, therefore it is more likely that a developer
would end up with more kudos/hardware/$$/whatever by respecting his
wishes. However, the developers are not required to follow the wishes
of the users.
Nate
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To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami)
Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
dg@root.com
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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<199803040128.RAA29577@vader.cs.berkeley.edu>
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> * This is why a Contributor class is needed.
> *
> * If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-)
>
> Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member.
Yes I do. It's the only way I can get Jordan to do dinner with me. :)
:)
> (My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something? ;)
Of course. :)
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:43:46 1998
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To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami)
cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
dg@root.com
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:28:54 PST."
<199803040128.RAA29577@vader.cs.berkeley.edu>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> * This is why a Contributor class is needed.
> *
> * If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-)
>
> Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member.
> Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or
> dinner with any of you guys. :)
>
> (My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something? ;)
If a tree falls on a core member, does anybody notice?
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:46:31 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:15:43 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: troff papers missing
References: <199803031854.LAA02533@ve7tcp.ampr.org>
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On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 11:54:17 -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> Once upon a time (4.4Lite) the doc distribution contained a
> troff reference paper in the doc tree. This seems to be missing
> from 3.0. Am I blind, or was it removed? If it was nuked, why?
It was AT&T copyright.
> (Troff reference manuals are getting as rare as original copies
> of the annotated 6th edition source ...)
That, too, may change soon. SCO is planning to license 16-bit UNIX in
source form for private use.
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:46:33 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:53:04 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Open Systems Networking <opsys@mail.webspan.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: dg@root.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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On 04-Mar-98 Open Systems Networking wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>> ... or if the become too popular: kill you after making you the number
>> one entry in the Guiness World Records book.. :-)
>
> Actually that isn't a bad idea seriously. Someone should call guiness and
> see if there is a world record for the ammount of simultaneous users on a
> PC. I mean of all the stupid categories and things in guiness, that would
> be KILLER bragging rights for FreeBSD :) To be listed in guiness as the
> worlds most heavily used FTP machine. Most of us already know this, but
> to
> be able to point to the guiness book of world records when talking to
> clients or whatnot would be pretty cool! :)
> Jordan, or david should call guiness :)
If you call first, your system will be it :-)
I thought they are talking about dark beer all this time. Shows you how
much I knwo.
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:49:36 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:55:55 -0800 (PST)
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Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: (Satoshi Asami) <asami@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com
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On 04-Mar-98 Satoshi Asami wrote:
> * This is why a Contributor class is needed.
> *
> * If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-)
>
> Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member.
> Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or
> dinner with any of you guys. :)
Your address (So I can drop by)?
> (My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something? ;)
a. I am not making you. You are.
b. In the name of fund raising, you glitter the shiny and hide the drab.
People raise money for much lesser causes. I can direct you to some
computer related mailing lists where certain individuals (who had lunch
with DG!) have raised this to an art form.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:50:25 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
cc: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami), shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:41:46 PST."
<199803040141.RAA19181@dingo.cdrom.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:49:11 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> If a tree falls on a core member, does anybody notice?
No, but it might explain the continuing silence on -core
from some of them. :-)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:52:15 1998
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To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Gary Palmer" <gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:27:19 +0100."
<19980303092719.58779@follo.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:51:55 -0500
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Eivind Eklund wrote in message ID
<19980303092719.58779@follo.net>:
> Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field
> in the registration, where people could key in their credit card
> number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further
> FreeBSD development?
A lot of ppl won't because its not a secure delivery.
> If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10,
> there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD.
One way right now is to bu the CDROM ... its more than $10 I know, but
the proceeds are used to better the project.
Gary
--
Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member
FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:53:31 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:59:39 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com,
(Satoshi Asami) <asami@FreeBSD.ORG>
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On 04-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote:
>> * This is why a Contributor class is needed.
>> *
>> * If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward?
>> :-)
>>
>> Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member.
>> Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or
>> dinner with any of you guys. :)
>>
>> (My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something?
>> ;)
>
> If a tree falls on a core member, does anybody notice?
Core member in question for one.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 18:04:28 1998
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To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG
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In-reply-to: <12360.888965506@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@FreeBSD.ORG)
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami)
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* From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
* up. I've already ordered Satoshi & crew a really nice package
* building machine which should be here Friday and I guess I'll spend
Thank you very much. That would certainly help a lot. :)
Satoshi
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 18:18:06 1998
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
cc: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: troff papers missing
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:15:43 +1030."
<19980304121543.31045@freebie.lemis.com>
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:17:35 +1000
Message-ID: <13275.888977855@dstc.edu.au>
From: George Michaelson <ggm@dstc.edu.au>
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Dennis Ritchie has V7 spec troff papers for almost everything which was removed
available for anon FTP under a 'its so old, nobody cares' clause.
I pulled them but GNU t/roff can't grok the pre-BSD markup and I ran out
of time to fudge.
If you really want this stuff, with some pain, its doable.
What *I* miss is the learn package. It was bitchin' for passing off how to
do basic shell/ed/vi to a robot.
-George
--
George Michaelson | DSTC Pty Ltd
Email: ggm@dstc.edu.au | University of Qld 4072
Phone: +61 7 3365 4310 | Australia
Fax: +61 7 3365 4311 | http://www.dstc.edu.au
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 18:32:30 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:31:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
X-Sender: chuckr@localhost
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>,
Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com>
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD
> > people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.)
> > I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a
> > donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some
> > small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying
> > the big bucks for it.
>
> I think the real question we need to answer here is:
>
> Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different*
> subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was
> already factored in?
In a second. Sign me up.
>
> If the answer to this question is a significant yes, I'll push with
> Walnut Creek CDROM to set something up.
>
> We are starting to get significant donations now and while we're still
> nowhere near the point where we could actually hire people with the
> funds available, that's definitely a goal of mine.
>
> Jordan
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
>
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data
chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 |
Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 18:47:27 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:49:08 GMT
Message-ID: <34fdbe96.97413991@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <13993.888908908@critter.freebsd.dk>
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On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:08:28 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp
<phk@critter.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>The fact that there has been none comment on Terrys suggestion usually
>means that people didn't even spend so much time to consider it that
>they could prevent their Pavlovian reflex from pressing D at the sight
>of Terrys name.
I did not comment on it, yet I do not have a Pavlovian reflex to
Terry's name.
How will FreeBSD thrive while core team members publicly display such
a mean-spirited, bad attitude as the above? When enough people get
fed up with it, they will split and develop their own version of BSD,
leaving the others behind.
>--
>Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
--
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:56:53 GMT
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On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:26:41 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard"
<jkh@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost
>increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed
>daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments.
>
>Anything else while we're on the topic? :)
Yep.
I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
funded.
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 19:03:31 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 03:05:02 GMT
Message-ID: <3500c33c.98603282@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:43 -0700, Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
wrote:
>My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the
>ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the
>understanding that it's only a hint.
>Whaddya think?
For small contributions it might be a workable model, but you'll never
attract serious money if you're not willing to do the donors' bidding.
Who was it that said to ban corporate contributions, Jordan? That's
silly. As long as the source code remains free, everyone gets the
benefit, no matter how narrow the donor's request might seem. After
all, it's THEIR MONEY and they don't have to part with it if they
don't want to.
All of you are thinking too small. THINK BIG!
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 19:08:12 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:07:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> >I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost
> >increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed
> >daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments.
> >
> >Anything else while we're on the topic? :)
>
> Yep.
>
> I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
> funded.
I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a
volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not
buying! It'd be a great mistake to forget that.
Please don't lose sight of that, because it'd turn a great hobby into
someone's business. I'll be in line to donate, but let's keep in mind
we're doing this as enthusiasts, not corporate-magnates.
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data
chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 |
Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 19:10:37 1998
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <3500c33c.98603282@mail.cetlink.net>
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<199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com>
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> >My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the
> >ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the
> >understanding that it's only a hint.
>
> >Whaddya think?
>
> For small contributions it might be a workable model, but you'll never
> attract serious money if you're not willing to do the donors' bidding.
I don't think FreeBSD has the resources do deal with 'serious donors',
any more so than they're doing now. (People with serious money are
willing to hire FreeBSD folks to do 'serious work' on their dime. A
number of companies have done this already, and I don't see that
changing. John Dyson, Julian, Poul-Henning, Jordan, David, and many
others are working full-time on FreeBSD and/or FreeBSD related projects
*right now* (apologies to those who I might have missed).
Basically, if you've got big $$ to spend, I think it's been shown that
many FreeBSD developers are willing to be long-term/short-term employees
and/or contract workers.
> All of you are thinking too small. THINK BIG!
Big is already working, we need medium. :)
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 19:36:46 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:36:24 -0600
From: dannyman <djhoward@uiuc.edu>
To: George Michaelson <ggm@dstc.edu.au>, Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: troff papers missing
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:17:35PM +1000, George Michaelson wrote:
> What *I* miss is the learn package. It was bitchin' for passing off how to
> do basic shell/ed/vi to a robot.
Perhaps we could get together and build a new one. :)
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:02:32 1998
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To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
cc: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:07:22 EST."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980303220158.438N-100000@localhost>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
>
> > >I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost
> > >increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed
> > >daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments.
> > >
> > >Anything else while we're on the topic? :)
> >
> > Yep.
> >
> > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
> > funded.
>
> I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a
> volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not
So let me understand this . FreeBSD is Free minus the Pay 8) ?
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:11:38 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:12:53 GMT
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On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:01:43 -0800, Amancio Hasty
<hasty@rah.star-gate.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
>>
>> > >I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost
>> > >increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed
>> > >daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments.
>> > >
>> > >Anything else while we're on the topic? :)
>> >
>> > Yep.
>> >
>> > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
>> > funded.
>>
>> I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a
>> volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not
>
>So let me understand this . FreeBSD is Free minus the Pay 8) ?
As Nate said, it's already been accepted. But the developers getting
paid are fragmented, not organized. That's the wrong way to do it.
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:17:52 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:12:53 GMT."
<3501d407.102898087@mail.cetlink.net>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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> As Nate said, it's already been accepted. But the developers getting
> paid are fragmented, not organized. That's the wrong way to do it.
Thats fine . It is not too hard to recognize that certain areas
have corporate appeal.
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:24:39 1998
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From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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cc: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
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Subject: Re: Donations.
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> >
> > > >I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost
> > > >increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed
> > > >daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments.
> > > >
> > > >Anything else while we're on the topic? :)
> > >
> > > Yep.
> > >
> > > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
> > > funded.
> >
> > I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a
> > volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not
>
> So let me understand this . FreeBSD is Free minus the Pay 8) ?
Kind of a fine line here. I want FreeBSD to move forward, and I've been
(and will continue to be) willing to contribute, but I also want FreeBSD
to keep the enthusiast quality feeling. I don't want to see unbridled
commercialism creep in. I don't see what WC is doing as getting anywhere
near close to that, but *some* of the suggestions made me feel that things
might be getting out of hand.
The thought of FreeBSD somehow engendering the growth of a future Bill
Gates is repulsive. I just wanted to add a note of caution to some of the
more extreme funding suggestions. When I saw "THINK BIG", well, that
triggered me off (yes, I then went back and made a reply to his previous
message).
>
> Cheers,
> Amancio
>
>
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
>
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data
chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 |
Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:55:03 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
Cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
"Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:56:17 GMT
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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:23:35 -0500 (EST), Chuck Robey
<chuckr@glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>The thought of FreeBSD somehow engendering the growth of a future Bill
>Gates is repulsive. I just wanted to add a note of caution to some of the
>more extreme funding suggestions. When I saw "THINK BIG", well, that
>triggered me off
No matter how big it gets, it's still freed software. No one can
"control" it like some evil empire. We have the source, Luke.
--
Browser war over, Mozilla now free.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 21:20:38 1998
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
Cc: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>,
Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>,
freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:41:02 PST."
<199803031841.KAA25772@rah.star-gate.com>
References: <199803031841.KAA25772@rah.star-gate.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:20:02 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199803031841.KAA25772@rah.star-gate.com> Amancio Hasty writes:
: I heard yesterday on a radio commercial : That the Interjet was so good
: to install that it was worth installing over and over again .
"If it's not painful, it's not gainful" was the motto of the
Technomassocists society. I really liked that...
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 21:31:30 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:59:26 PST."
<XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
References: <XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:29:42 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> Simon Shapiro writes:
: Here are few more ideas:
for $150.00 you get your own JKH 357 magnum with extra loud clicking
mechanism. For shooting people that make really ill considered
changes to the tree.
for $500.00 you can get your own jkh motocycle faring, complete with
biking leathers, sport helment (complete with chuckie decal :-) and
three gallons of bad attitude.
and for $1500.00 you can get your very own Rod Grimes sky
surfing/diving rig. Health insurance rider extra.
For $5.00 you can get Terry's whiteboard. For another $1995 we'll
even explain it to you. Now you too can decode some of terry's more
esoretic points and posts and know why they make sense. A deal a
twice the price! Act now!
Too spendy for you? You can get your very own pointy hat, just like
the ones members of -committers wear, monogrammed with a picture of
chuckie for only $75.00. Be the envy of all those in your office, or
buy several (20 for only $1000) and give them out in your own
organization.[*]
With appologies to those core members I've lampooned (and those that I
didn't but wanted me to).
Warner
[*] We could raffle off several of these at USENIX next year :-)
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 21:43:07 1998
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>,
George Michaelson <ggm@dstc.edu.au>,
"Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, Tom <tom@uniserve.com>,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, sthaug@nethelp.no,
dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:39:53 PST."
<199803040039.QAA01683@rah.star-gate.com>
References: <199803040039.QAA01683@rah.star-gate.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:41:35 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199803040039.QAA01683@rah.star-gate.com> Amancio Hasty writes:
: Let re-phrase my donation: I am willing to donate $25 and would
: love to see cool SMP support. So vote with your wallet!
I'd love to see atapi tape drives supported, so I donated one to the
cause....
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:15:25 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:15:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Manfred Antar <root@mantar.slip.netcom.com>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
cc: smp@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Current SMP kernel panics on booting
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There were some smp file changes today and i built a new
a kernel. It drops into debugger when booting at the place where it used
to say CPU1 launched
here is what i get:
mp_lock=00000002; cpuid=0; lapic.id=00000000
instruction pointer = 0x8 : 0x0f012f89e
stack pointer = 0x10 : 0xf02a9f90
frame pointer = 0x10 : 0xf02a9f94
code segment = base 0x0 limit 0fffff, type 0x1b
= DPL0, pres 1, def321, gran1
processor flags = interrupt enabled, IOPL = 0
current process = 0 (swapper)
interrupt mask = <-- SMP:XXX
kernel : type 29 trap, code = 0
stopped at _mbinit + 0xe movl $0,_mclfree
For the past couple of days it seems like the system has been unstable
frequent lock ups.A kernel from last thursday works fine.
Manfred
==============================
|| mantar@netcom.com ||
|| Ph. (415) 681-6235 ||
==============================
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:18:44 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 06:17:37 +0000
From: Steve Logue <slogue@acm.org>
Organization: nettek LLC
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John Kelly wrote:
> I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
> funded.
Simple - straight, and perfectly worded. May we now debate the dollar
amount?
-STEVEl
--------------------------------------------
http://www.nettek-LLC.com
Southern Oregon's PC network technicians
--------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:23:08 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:30:01 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
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On 04-Mar-98 Warner Losh wrote:
> In message <XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> Simon Shapiro
> writes:
>: Here are few more ideas:
>
> for $150.00 you get your own JKH 357 magnum with extra loud clicking
> mechanism. For shooting people that make really ill considered
> changes to the tree.
This is one firearm brand I do not recognize. Cheap for a 357...
> for $500.00 you can get your own jkh motocycle faring, complete with
> biking leathers, sport helment (complete with chuckie decal :-) and
> three gallons of bad attitude.
The last item seems to be free in these circles...
> and for $1500.00 you can get your very own Rod Grimes sky
> surfing/diving rig. Health insurance rider extra.
>
> For $5.00 you can get Terry's whiteboard. For another $1995 we'll
> even explain it to you. Now you too can decode some of terry's more
> esoretic points and posts and know why they make sense. A deal a
> twice the price! Act now!
>
> Too spendy for you? You can get your very own pointy hat, just like
> the ones members of -committers wear, monogrammed with a picture of
> chuckie for only $75.00. Be the envy of all those in your office, or
> buy several (20 for only $1000) and give them out in your own
> organization.[*]
>
> With appologies to those core members I've lampooned (and those that I
> didn't but wanted me to).
>
> Warner
>
> [*] We could raffle off several of these at USENIX next year :-)
I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of
perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to
good, working pieces of the kernel...
Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the
system.
simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:25:22 1998
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Message-ID: <34FCF399.2B4B879A@acm.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 06:24:25 +0000
From: Steve Logue <slogue@acm.org>
Organization: nettek LLC
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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Simon Shapiro wrote:
> If you call first, your system will be it :-)
> I thought they are talking about dark beer all this time. Shows you how
> much I knwo.
Simon - Look at you! You _don't_ know nutton - They were talking about
Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.
Dark beer: sheesh!
:-) -STEVEl
--
--------------------------------------------
http://www.nettek-LLC.com
Southern Oregon's PC network technicians
--------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:29:12 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:36:07 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Steve Logue <slogue@acm.org>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 04-Mar-98 Steve Logue wrote:
> Simon Shapiro wrote:
>
>> If you call first, your system will be it :-)
>> I thought they are talking about dark beer all this time. Shows you how
>> much I knwo.
>
>
> Simon - Look at you! You _don't_ know nutton - They were talking about
> Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.
>
> Dark beer: sheesh!
>
>:-) -STEVEl
Sorry. I do not consume alcoholic beverages, and as a result my knowledge
of these matters is very poor.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:37:26 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:16:42 PST."
<12000.888963402@time.cdrom.com>
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:37:20 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Dear Santa,
Thank you for giving me your address. The check is on the mail.
Amancio
> >
> > Dear Santa <jkh>,
> >
> > Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can
> > have fine SMP granularity by Christmas?
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html#591
> (section 17.2.6.1 of the handbook)
>
> :-)
>
> Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:28:01 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
CC: imp@village.org, handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
toor@dyson.iquest.net
In-reply-to: <XFMail.980303223001.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> (message from Simon Shapiro on Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:30:01 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami)
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* Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the
* system.
That would be the lynx-current port.
Satoshi
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:29:47 1998
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980303220158.438N-100000@localhost> from Chuck Robey at "Mar 3, 98 10:07:22 pm"
To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:29:31 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jak@cetlink.net, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
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Chuck Robey said:
> >
> > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
> > funded.
>
> I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a
> volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not
> buying! It'd be a great mistake to forget that.
>
This is my initial take on this opinion: I can sympathize with your
position. I would feel guilty if a student user would contribute much more
than $25 or so dollars. Likewise, a large institution might reasonably
contribute $5000-$10000, or if they want more control, might hire a few
people to work on FreeBSD related items. However, I really really don't
think that it is a good idea to disappoint people who are counting on
us (it is already hard to deal with things the way that they are now.)
We need to make sure that people know that the donation is meant to
help with future general progress, no-one's pockets are being lined,
and the work on the project might not be greatly influenced by the
donation (except in a general way that we can fund certain things that
simply are not "fun" to do :-)).
I would hate to think that someone might believe that they are getting
much influence even with $500. If an average FreeBSD kernel developer's
billing rate is between $25 and $150, the $500 doesn't fund much time.
I think that one could trust that the money would be used for the good
of the project, but compared to my habit of spending 2/3 of my work
time, and perhaps 2/3 of my play time on FreeBSD, that isn't all that
much money by itself.
Since I am being paid very fairly for my work at NCI, I am definitely
not willing to take payment of any kind for FreeBSD work now. However,
if there is some kind of hardware that one might want to work properly
on FreeBSD, I would be willing to indefinitely borrow that hardware in
order to make a driver for someone, and perhaps maintain the driver
as needed. The "indefinite loan" only influences me because I would have
hardware to test on. If I am not motivated to work on a project, "giving"
me the hardware won't influence work very much. If I want to do the
work, and the only thing holding me back is hardware, then a loan of
such hardware would be very productive. I suspect that other FreeBSD
developers (core/non-core) would feel similarly.
If I was not already overcommitted, I think that I wouldn't mind helping
with the Alpha, Ultra-Sparc, or "other, non-public" machine port. There
is always the possiblity of people who might be less overcommitted, who
could effectively help with such a port. The problem is that "donating"
a machine to do a port doesn't seem to necessarily be effective in
stimulating progress.
This rambling response kind-of indicates my concern that we "do this
correctly" so that the people who donate are happy, and the project
gets the best bang for the buck from the donated resources (i.e. we
don't mistakenly squander the resources.) I think that JKH & crew
has learned from previous experience, but we need to remember the
past so that we minimize mistakes in the future. It is so easy to
be optimistic about this, but I would think that allocation of the
donated resources would be a significant (almost sacred) responsibility.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:33:04 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:49:08 GMT."
<34fdbe96.97413991@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:31:40 -0800
Message-ID: <15287.888996700@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> How will FreeBSD thrive while core team members publicly display such
> a mean-spirited, bad attitude as the above? When enough people get
> fed up with it, they will split and develop their own version of BSD,
> leaving the others behind.
First off, it's very easy (too easy) to comment like this when you
don't know the full details. Terry's been getting along with us a lot
better lately, but he's certainly been a royal pain in the backside to
many of us in the past and there are some utterly baseless accusations
he's made at various times which I'm still not all that sure I forgive
him for. There are people in this life who revel in bedeviling others
for what would often appear to be the sheer joy of it, and they rarely
win popularity contests in the process. The members of core are only
human and if you jab them enough times with a hat pin, they'll react.
Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins, etc
etc.
That said, we're certainly working every day on patience and other
human virtues so that we can rise above the worst that our detractors
may do, but you've still got to remember that this is a volunteer
outfit and it's already enough to ask of our members that they donate
their time and energy without asking for complete personality
transplants on top of it.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:41:49 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:56:53 GMT."
<34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:40:54 -0800
Message-ID: <15378.888997254@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
> funded.
Then save your money.
That may sound harsh, but consider the facts: What good is a "vote"
going to do you if your vote is for something that can't be purchased
for $250? You could say, for example, that you want your $250 to go
towards SMP development but, until I have enough pennies saved to buy
a block of Steve Passe's consulting hours, such a vote doesn't tell me
anything more than I already know and that $250 is going to sit in the
bank for a long time (perhaps forever) before I have enough there to
seriously approach Steve with an offer.
If you're looking to directly influence the usage of the monies
donated then that are far more practical ways of going about it, like
simply spending $250 on some card or other peripheral you want
supported and then sending it to us. It's still no guarantee that
we'll find the people to do the work involved, but you've certainly
constrained the usage of your $250 significantly by turning it into
hardware first and I've no objection at all to people voting thusly
with their wallets.
If you're also looking to influence my choices of what FreeBSD, Inc.
does with its money then I'm also always happy to take suggestions
from _anyone_, regardless of whether they've contributed or not, since
a good suggestion is a good suggestion regardless of its source. If
you're looking to attach strings to the ways in which I can spend
fractions of dollars, however, then that's an accounting headache
which I simply don't need and I'd rather you used the money to
purchase a nice birthday gift for your wife, or something.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:44:09 1998
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To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:09:38 MST."
<199803040309.UAA05875@mt.sri.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:43:15 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> I don't think FreeBSD has the resources do deal with 'serious donors',
> any more so than they're doing now. (People with serious money are
> willing to hire FreeBSD folks to do 'serious work' on their dime. A
This is actually very true. If someone offered me $50K tomorrow to
fund SMP development then I'd probably ask them to simply approach
Steve Passe directly and save me the extra (*lots* of extra!)
paperwork involved. As long as the worker is paid and the work is
done, who cares who signs the checks? Well, I care because I'm the
one who'd have to sign them if it were me, but I mean in the
abstract. :-)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:51:08 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:40:03 +0200 (EET)
From: Alexander Litvin <archer@lucky.net>
Message-Id: <199803040740.JAA06426@grape.carrier.kiev.ua>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
X-Newsgroups: grape.freebsd.current
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980303164538.6994B-100000@shadow.worldbank.org> <34FC7EFC.237C228A@whistle.com> <19980303222750.1133.qmail@devious.lustig.com> <34FC9BBE.6201DD56@whistle.com>
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In article <34FC9BBE.6201DD56@whistle.com> you wrote:
> NO
Well, what about soft updates being commited to CURRENT?
I mean - a lot of stuff is hanging as diffs, and cvsupping
and patching each time is a bit annoying. Not to count that
patchis are not applied cleanly sometimes.
> (though you could try... you could make it a completely removable option
> with appropriate ifdefs.)
> but the VM interactions would be different
> and the vfs interface has changed a bit.
> but it might hurt 2.2's stability.
> Barry Lustig wrote:
>>
>> Is anyone planning on back-porting soft-updates to 2.5.X?
>> barry
--
Litvin Alexander
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From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:54:32 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:57:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "Christopher R. Bowman" <crb@ChrisBowman.com>
To: George Michaelson <ggm@dstc.edu.au>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, Tom <tom@uniserve.com>,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, sthaug@nethelp.no,
dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-Reply-To: <12876.888970239@dstc.edu.au>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, George Michaelson wrote:
>
>So I suggest that current not-for-profit trustees be just that: trusted.
>-to spend with discretion on relevant activity. If it benefits people who pay,
>it should benefit everybody else as well or it doesn't meet tax-free
>requirements. Spending $$$ to pay people to finish off significant work, or
>to buy h/w to make it possible, thats cool. The wider benefit is plain.
I think that we should remind people at this point that FreeBSD,
while incorporated, is not incorporated as a 501 (c) 3 or not profit
organization (least thats what I thought Jordan said when I asked
a few weeks ago) and as such or donations will NOT be tax-free/deductable.
---------
Christopher R. Bowman
crb@ChrisBowman.com
<A HREF="http://www.ChrisBowman.com">My home page</A>
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:02:30 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>,
"Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:12:53 GMT."
<3501d407.102898087@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:01:29 -0800
Message-ID: <15498.888998489@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> As Nate said, it's already been accepted. But the developers getting
> paid are fragmented, not organized. That's the wrong way to do it.
You seem to enjoy making extremist statements with little in the way
of supporting evidence and I rather that wish you'd knock it off
because it's distruptive and doesn't further the cause of FreeBSD if
that's what you're really, honestly here to do.
I'm sorry but it's not the "wrong" way to do it, it's very often the
*only* way to do it given certain constraints on your potential
"employees."
Don't you think I'd just love to go rent a cosy little set of offices
somewhere (perhaps in the classic renovated warehouse that seems to be
positively mandatory for startups these days :-) and get about 30
full-time FreeBSD developers together working full-time and at very
generous salaries? We'd then enjoy all the advantages of a truly
close-coupled work environment with big whiteboards all over the place
and working lunch meetings and all the other (generally)
productivity-enhancing benefits of having a real company with real
offices and we'd probably even have a blast doing it. Except for one
teeny-tiny little problem: The current group of developers couldn't do
it.
The current developers are already more than happily employed, or they
have families and they don't want to move, or they just plain would
HATE working anywhere but at home in their bedrooms at night and are
doing FreeBSD largely _because_ it's not taking place at the office.
More to the point, there are many of us that get along just fine in
email but would probably kill one another if forced to work
face-to-face 5 days a week. :-)
That's not to say that a company composed of some other group of
individuals working on FreeBSD can't be created some day, but I'd just
as soon worry about that *after* we've already exhausted the options
offered by simply co-opting the employees of other companies (which
actually happens to work _very nicely_, thank you very much!) or
getting people paid to work at home on FreeBSD on a full-time or
contract basis (which we're also already doing). That will result in
much less disruption to the current developers' roster and, for a lot
of very good reasons, it's a good idea not to substantially screw
around with the composition of the FreeBSD development team right now.
Not wrong. Pragmatic. Learn the difference! :)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:06:58 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:06:32 -0800
From: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <199803040529.WAA03824@harmony.village.org> <XFMail.980303223001.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
Organization: Cu Networking
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Simon Shapiro scribbled this message on Mar 3:
[...]
> I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of
> perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to
> good, working pieces of the kernel...
>
> Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the
> system.
that would have to be syscons.c closely followed by sio.c... (256 revs
to syscons and 199 revs to sio.c)...
p.s. Talking about sio, I have some mods that I'm going to be testing
that actually make use of the AST/4 register, and should eliminate
the COM_MULTIPORT option as it will only test the ports that are under
that specific master... (now I just wish that my University would
let me put diskless booting options in their bootp/dhcp server so I can
boot this one machine diskless :(, guess I'm going to have to use
PicoBSD)...
--
John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954
Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405
Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD
Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:13:20 1998
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To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Warner Losh <imp@village.org>,
Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:06:32 PST."
<19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:08:00 +0100
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>, John-Mark Gurney write
s:
>Simon Shapiro scribbled this message on Mar 3:
>
>[...]
>
>> I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of
>> perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to
>> good, working pieces of the kernel...
>>
>> Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the
>> system.
>
>that would have to be syscons.c closely followed by sio.c... (256 revs
>to syscons and 199 revs to sio.c)...
CVSROOT/modules
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:16:06 1998
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To: "Christopher R. Bowman" <crb@ChrisBowman.com>
cc: George Michaelson <ggm@dstc.edu.au>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
Tom <tom@uniserve.com>, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:57:51 EST."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980304025525.265C-100000@quark.ChrisBowman.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:15:00 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> I think that we should remind people at this point that FreeBSD,
> while incorporated, is not incorporated as a 501 (c) 3 or not profit
> organization (least thats what I thought Jordan said when I asked
> a few weeks ago) and as such or donations will NOT be tax-free/deductable.
Yep, that's all made quite clear in the Handbook. If the kind of
money starts flowing in that it's worth the extra accounting fees and
hassles of running a 501(c)3, I'll certainly considering shifting over
to that. FreeBSD, Inc. was declared a not-for-profit organization in
the incorporation papers actually, but that's still not the same thing
as a non-profit and what Christopher says about tax deductions is
completely correct.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:31:23 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:31:11 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Gary Palmer <gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <19980303092719.58779@follo.net> <14599.888976315@gjp.erols.com>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 08:51:55PM -0500, Gary Palmer wrote:
> Eivind Eklund wrote in message ID
> <19980303092719.58779@follo.net>:
> > Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field
> > in the registration, where people could key in their credit card
> > number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further
> > FreeBSD development?
>
> A lot of ppl won't because its not a secure delivery.
secure.flp, distributed from the US and Europe separately?
This was part of what was implied in 'feasible' above.
We should also be allowed to distribute 40-bit SSL freely, shouldn't we?
(Not the source code to do it - but that can be taken care of through the
normal secure/internaltion distinction, probably).
Having said that:
The secure/non-secure distinction is a matter of collective insanity.
Credit cards are _not_ confidential information.
(a) They can be calculated from scratch for less than 5 minutes work.
(b) They can be extracted from credit-information companies that have
security that can only be likened to an open door.
(c) Everybody that use their credit card in any restaurant, hotel,
gas-station, or shop is giving out unecrypted credit card information to
people that they shouldn't trust.
I used to track the so-called hacker/phreacker community pretty closely -
the largest number of cards come from (b), while the largest number of
people get cards from (c). _Anybody_ can get cards from (c) if they put
down a tiny amount of work on it. Any kid playing at being a 'hacker'
(media term) can get cards from source (b) through other kids not playing
quite so lousy.
At least the fact that any kid knows another kid that works in a gas-station
should be obvious to the averagely clued person that takes 2 secs to think
about it.
Sorry for the steam; back to your regular programming. (I've just been
frustrated over this for a _long_ time).
> > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10,
> > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD.
>
> One way right now is to bu the CDROM ... its more than $10 I know, but
> the proceeds are used to better the project.
I'm doing that, but it isn't really a good way (for me) - it implies extra
work, and it implies that part of what I pay go to something I don't need.
I'd feel much better about giving money directly to the project.
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:42:28 1998
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
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Jordan said:
> > What about a special net subscription, which gives you a login id and
> > password for a FTP/WWW server that gives you guarrenteed access? I hate
> > it when I need to get something (last time was a copy of committlogs to
> > see what had changes in libc_r), and ftp.freebsd.org is full.
> I really don't want to
> get into anything which creates a set of "haves and have-nots", even
> if the haves have spent money for it, since things start to get a
> little dubious at that point.
I strongly second this. If you donate (Thank you!), then it should be
quite clear that it is exactly that: a DONATION. FreeBSD Inc. decides
what to do with the money. Maybe there's a web-page somewhere giving a
rough account of what the money was spent on. If you like what they do
with the money, and you like the direction FreeBSD takes, you can donate
again. If not, then you just leave it. Suggestions (NOT demands!) will
always be welcome (but that's what its like anyway).
therefore:
> It wouldn't be the "haves" and "have-nots", just the "right now", "maybe
> now" group. Everyone can get the same stuff.
No.
> 1) The members only user group
> 2) The ftp/www login for access when ftp.freebsd.org is full
No.
FreeBSD must remain truly free (in the sense it is now): nobody has more
read-access than anybody else; there's no mailing list(s) just for
donators or such nonsense. Whoever wants to participate can do so. If
you contribute source or whatever, it will be judged by its value, and
not by your name (even if that may piss off people).
Imagine this scenrio: I donate $xxx, so I "expect" that FreeBSD
implements my favourite whatnot. As it happens, implementing even
whatnot-beta-01 turns out to be much harder than I expected.
Nevertheless, since I "paid", I will start demanding delivery.
This is of course only a ridiculous thought-experiment, but you'll get
my meaning. If somebody really wants something done and is prepared to
pay for it, why, they can hire someone themselves and have it done.
OK, so I've got this off my chest.
thinking about all this, maybe I'll donate as well ...
--
Michael Schuster
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:56:57 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:56:46 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199803040856.AAA14668@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
CC: nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com
In-reply-to: <XFMail.980303175555.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> (message from Simon Shapiro on Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:55:55 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami)
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* > Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or
* > dinner with any of you guys. :)
*
* Your address (So I can drop by)?
It's on my homepage. (Where my homepage is, I'll leave it as an
exercise to the reader. :)
Satoshi
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 01:16:19 1998
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To: Satoshi Asami <asami@FreeBSD.ORG>
CC: dg@root.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, nate@mt.sri.com
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
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Satoshi Asami wrote:
>
> * > Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or
> * > dinner with any of you guys. :)
> *
> * Your address (So I can drop by)?
>
> It's on my homepage. (Where my homepage is, I'll leave it as an
> exercise to the reader. :)
>
> Satoshi
Is it ok if we just call your office and get directions?
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Know what I hate most? Rhetorical questions.
-- Henry N. Camp
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Graphic Rezidew
rezidew@rezidew.net
http://Graphic.Rezidew.net
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 01:18:04 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:14:09 +0100
From: Thomas Zenker <thz@lennartz-electronic.de>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com> <3500c33c.98603282@mail.cetlink.net>
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In-Reply-To: <3500c33c.98603282@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 03:05:02AM +0000
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 03:05:02AM +0000, John Kelly wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:43 -0700, Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
> wrote:
>
> >understanding that it's only a hint.
>
> >Whaddya think?
>
> For small contributions it might be a workable model, but you'll never
> attract serious money if you're not willing to do the donors' bidding.
>
> Who was it that said to ban corporate contributions, Jordan? That's
> silly. As long as the source code remains free, everyone gets the
> benefit, no matter how narrow the donor's request might seem. After
> all, it's THEIR MONEY and they don't have to part with it if they
> don't want to.
>
> All of you are thinking too small. THINK BIG!
>
Never sell your ass!
If you are willing to accept the donors' bidding, it is no longer
a donation but biz and FBSD is in danger to loose its' independence.
This would create the possibility for corporates to step in and we all
would loose wether source code stays free or not.
What about someone like M$ Bill influence the directions for FBSD?
NEVER!
Thomas Zenker
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 02:30:09 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:27:18 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
To: Leo Papandreou <leo@talcom.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
References: <19980303182941.57473@homer.supersex.com> <199803040025.QAA18908@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980303202608.04873@homer.supersex.com>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 08:26:08PM -0500, Leo Papandreou wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:25:34PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> > I would advise against putting words in WC's mouth. Jordan is probably
> > the only person that you should listen to for comment here, as he can
> > speak for both Walnut Creek CDROM and for FreeBSD Inc., both of whom
> > can play a useful part in making donations both easy and accountable.
>
> Well, sure; I was just speculating idly. Personally I see nothing
> wrong with WC handling the transactions.
Me neither, I only spoke without thinking. :)
--
//Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=-
\\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=-
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 02:30:14 1998
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Message-ID: <19980303170326.27546@urh.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:26 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
References: <199803032130.NAA17979@dingo.cdrom.com> <12436.888965846@time.cdrom.com>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:57:26PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> It's not a problem - WC has already agreed to handle this for us, we
> just never followed through with the appropriate information being
> made available to the user base. See previous mail about this one -
> I'm moving forward with it now.
*cheers Jordon on*
I can just hear Jordan's braincells clicking "they wanna pay me! they wanna
give us lots of money to make FreeBSD. this is so so so damned f___ing cool!
i'm as excited as a little girl!"
--
//Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=-
\\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=-
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 03:18:12 1998
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Message-ID: <19980304121706.60591@deepo.prosa.dk>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:17:06 +0100
From: Philippe Regnauld <regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk>
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
References: <34FCF399.2B4B879A@acm.org> <XFMail.980303223607.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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Simon Shapiro writes:
>
> Sorry. I do not consume alcoholic beverages, and as a result my knowledge
> of these matters is very poor.
How CAN you code ??
:-P
--
-[ Philippe Regnauld / sysadmin / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk / +55.4N +11.3E ]-
«Pluto placed his bad dog at the entrance of Hades to keep the dead
IN and the living OUT! The archetypical corporate firewall?»
- S. Kelly Bootle, ("MYTHOLOGY", in Marutukku distrib)
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 03:20:56 1998
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To: dannyman <dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
sthaug@nethelp.no, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:03:26 CST."
<19980303170326.27546@urh.uiuc.edu>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 03:20:03 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> I can just hear Jordan's braincells clicking "they wanna pay me! they wanna
> give us lots of money to make FreeBSD. this is so so so damned f___ing cool!
> i'm as excited as a little girl!"
Uhhhhh. No, not really. But that's close enough, I guess. :-)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 04:32:14 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Steve Logue <slogue@acm.org>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:34:05 GMT
Message-ID: <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org>
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On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 06:17:37 +0000, Steve Logue <slogue@acm.org>
wrote:
>John Kelly wrote:
>
>> I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
>> funded.
>
>Simple - straight, and perfectly worded. May we now debate the dollar
>amount?
Some have reacted with horror to this idea but it seems pragmatic to
me.
How about one vote for every $250 donated? A donor of $750 would have
three votes. Design a ballot with suggested projects, and vote on
your favorite 10 in order of preference. The top vote getters become
funded.
Obviously, the more you donate the more you can influence the vote,
but that's as it should be. It's not a political democracy.
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 04:42:40 1998
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Message-ID: <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:41:49 +0000
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
Cc: Steve Logue <slogue@acm.org>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:34:05PM +0000, John Kelly wrote:
> >> I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
> >> funded.
> >
> >Simple - straight, and perfectly worded. May we now debate the dollar
> >amount?
>
> Some have reacted with horror to this idea but it seems pragmatic to
> me.
>
> How about one vote for every $250 donated? A donor of $750 would have
> three votes. Design a ballot with suggested projects, and vote on
> your favorite 10 in order of preference. The top vote getters become
> funded.
>
> Obviously, the more you donate the more you can influence the vote,
> but that's as it should be. It's not a political democracy.
Will not work. Developers (and other contributors) work on a particular
facet of FreeBSD for (as far as I can tell) one of two reasons.
1. They want to.
2. They are employed specifically to do that.
If a developer wants to work on (for example) 'syscons' and all the
voters would rather they spent more time on 'networking', the developer
can cheerfully ignore all the votes, and do what they want anyway.
The *only* use for a system like this would be where someone maintained
a list of projects that need to be undertaken, and a ranking of those
projects based on the votes. A developer with some spare time, and no
particular preference as to which part of the system they want to work on
next could then consult this list to find out what might be most useful
to the project as a whole.
Letting the voters decide what gets funded is also a stunningly bad idea.
Influence over FreeBSD should be on the basis of technical merit, not
amount of cash you have to spend. David G is the principal architect not
because he paid Jordan & co. wads of cash (at least, I assume he didn't
:-) ) but because he understands the technical work involved, and is
trusted by the rest of -core to do the right thing.
N
--
Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 04:48:40 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:50:30 GMT
Message-ID: <34fe4a87.1266405@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <199803040729.CAA00653@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:29:31 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson"
<dyson@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>I would hate to think that someone might believe that they are getting
>much influence even with $500. If an average FreeBSD kernel developer's
>billing rate is between $25 and $150, the $500 doesn't fund much time.
I understand that, John. Having individual influence is not the
point. Having collective influence is.
With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by
the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do
that.
A reasonable billing rate should be standard for all developers who
want the work. $150 is too high. $50 - $75 is more reasonable.
Perhaps famous developers should get $75, while others get a little
less. The opportunity to work directly for the furtherance of FreeBSD
is valuable. Even famous developers should be willing to compromise
on their rate to obtain the best work that can be had.
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 04:54:03 1998
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Message-ID: <19980304125317.08692@iii.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:53:17 +0000
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:50:30PM +0000, John Kelly wrote:
> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
> deciding what gets funded.
Yes they should. They do the work, they get the responsibility to decide
what to work on.
N
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 05:03:45 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: nik@iii.co.uk
Cc: Steve Logue <slogue@acm.org>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:05:32 GMT
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References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:41:49 +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
>> How about one vote for every $250 donated? A donor of $750 would have
>> three votes. Design a ballot with suggested projects, and vote on
>> your favorite 10 in order of preference. The top vote getters become
>> funded.
>Will not work. Developers (and other contributors) work on a particular
>facet of FreeBSD for (as far as I can tell) one of two reasons.
>
> 1. They want to.
>
> 2. They are employed specifically to do that.
>
>If a developer wants to work on (for example) 'syscons' and all the
>voters would rather they spent more time on 'networking', the developer
>can cheerfully ignore all the votes, and do what they want anyway.
Developers who want to choose their own projects can continue working
pro bono. But developers who want to get paid for the work should be
willing to work under the donors direction.
That's the way it works in the real world. I don't know why some of
you are having such a hard time with this idea.
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 05:12:11 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:11:32 +0000
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk> <350150dc.2887681@mail.cetlink.net>
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In-Reply-To: <350150dc.2887681@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 01:05:32PM +0000
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 01:05:32PM +0000, John Kelly wrote:
> Developers who want to choose their own projects can continue working
> pro bono. But developers who want to get paid for the work should be
> willing to work under the donors direction.
That's fine. If, and only if, the donor is willing to fund the entire
project themselves. Otherwise, you get the following:
<hypothetical>
2 projects. Both of them important to FreeBSD.
Project A is slick, sexy, and will attract lots of attention.
Project B isn't as attractive, but still needs doing.
You, the donor (who (probably) has only a small understanding of the
FreeBSD internals) really wants project A to happen.
David Greenmen, principal architect, believes that project B is more
important to FreeBSD (perhaps there are three other projects that can't
get off the ground until project B is completed).
All other things being equal (i.e., there's a spare developer who's
looking for something to hack on, and they could do either of the
two projects) which project gets tackled first?
</hypothetical>
For a real world example, go and examine the issues surrounding tax
hypothecation, and why this is (generally) a bad idea.
N
--
Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft?
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 05:51:44 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), jkh@FreeBSD.ORG,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:50:30 GMT."
<34fe4a87.1266405@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800
Message-ID: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by
> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do
> that.
This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have
a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate
funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now?
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 06:05:50 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), jkh@FreeBSD.ORG,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:07:29 GMT
Message-ID: <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard"
<jkh@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
>> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by
>> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do
>> that.
>
>This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have
>a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate
>funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now?
>
> Jordan
Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do.
If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone
else will.
--
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG,
chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:07:29 GMT."
<35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:06:09 +0100
Message-ID: <5315.889020369@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net>, John Kelly writes:
>On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard"
><jkh@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>
>>> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
>>> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by
>>> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do
>>> that.
>>
>>This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have
>>a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate
>>funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now?
>>
>> Jordan
>
>Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do.
>
>If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone
>else will.
Good!
We don't need what in Denmark is called "Sticky Money".
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 06:35:10 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), jkh@FreeBSD.ORG,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:50:30 GMT."
<34fe4a87.1266405@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:03:42 +0100
Message-ID: <5268.889020222@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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>I understand that, John. Having individual influence is not the
>point. Having collective influence is.
>
>With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
>deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by
>the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do
>that.
>Even famous developers should be willing to compromise
>on their rate to obtain the best work that can be had.
Remember that what might make this "the best work that can be had"
might largely be the freedom to not have your goals set for you.
There are a lot of things in FreeBSD that you wouldn't be able to
make me touch with a long stick, even for insane amounts of money.
I would prefer that it works this way:
1. People express their wishes and desires on the mailing lists
as usual. It doesn't make a difference if people donate or not.
2. If somebody wants something badly, and wants to pay for it,
he hires some people to do it for him.
3. People donate insane amount of money because the think FreeBSD
is a good thing.
4. The core-team decides how to use the donations, based on the
current situation, into which of course the input from 1.
factors as always.
5. If people don't like what the core team decides, goto #1, skip #3.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 06:55:18 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: nik@iii.co.uk, Steve Logue <slogue@acm.org>,
"Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: jak's message of Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:05:32 +0000.
<350150dc.2887681@mail.cetlink.net>
Reply-to: marc@bowtie.nl
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100
From: Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
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> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:41:49 +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
>
> >> How about one vote for every $250 donated? A donor of $750 would have
> >> three votes. Design a ballot with suggested projects, and vote on
> >> your favorite 10 in order of preference. The top vote getters become
> >> funded.
>
> >Will not work. Developers (and other contributors) work on a particular
> >facet of FreeBSD for (as far as I can tell) one of two reasons.
> >
> > 1. They want to.
> >
> > 2. They are employed specifically to do that.
> >
> >If a developer wants to work on (for example) 'syscons' and all the
> >voters would rather they spent more time on 'networking', the developer
> >can cheerfully ignore all the votes, and do what they want anyway.
>
> Developers who want to choose their own projects can continue working
> pro bono. But developers who want to get paid for the work should be
> willing to work under the donors direction.
>
> That's the way it works in the real world. I don't know why some of
> you are having such a hard time with this idea.
>
I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to
donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money.
That is: they don't say what developers should do in their free
time and what to hack on, but what developers that will be hired
with the donated money will work on.
But I don't think the amount of influence of your vote should be
related to the amount of money donated.
This ofcourse gives rise to a lot of problems like people sending in
n donations of $10 to get n votes, but I guess you could draw up rules
for that.
Perhaps there should be two possibilities:
1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing.
2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it.
Regards,
Marc.
----------------------------------------------------
Marc van Kempen BowTie Technology
Email: marc@bowtie.nl WWW & Databases
tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65
fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86 http://www.bowtie.nl
----------------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:08:32 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: marc@bowtie.nl
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:23:33 GMT
Message-ID: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100, Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
wrote:
>I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to
>donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money.
>1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing.
>2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it.
In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials
don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do.
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:11:46 1998
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Message-ID: <19980304083721.56007@mcs.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:37:21 -0600
From: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG,
Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com> <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:07:29PM +0000, John Kelly wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard"
> <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>
> >> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
> >> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by
> >> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do
> >> that.
> >
> >This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have
> >a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate
> >funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now?
> >
> > Jordan
>
> Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do.
>
> If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone
> else will.
Bingo.
MCSNet could make a reasonably-sized donation to this cause (few thousand
bucks) and would have no problem with doing so. In fact, if we had some
idea what that incremental funding would do, I could make the business case
to be significantly more generous. Simply put, money ain't the issue.
The issue is that there are certain things that we really *NEED* fixed, and
to stay as priorities in remaining fixed as time goes on (things that used
to work, and are now broken for example - specifically, NFS issues for one,
and behavior under troublesome SCSI conditions [ie: returns of a defective
block from the controller] for another). I'm running kernels and OSs
patched up from November, specifically because since then the stability of
-CURRENT is bad enough from both direct observation and reports that if
the risks grossly outweigh the rewards of trying to roll an upgrade
through the network right now.
If I fund the *breakage* of something critical to us, I'm shooting myself
in the foot. That's unwise.
I understand that Jordan and the rest of the core team have their own
priorities. They sometimes don't mesh with mine. Ok, good and well. I
work around what I can, patch around what I can't work around, and remain
a few rev levels back if necessary in certain areas. That level of choice
is one of the nicities of a free operating system environment with source
code in a CVS tree.
But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able
to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way.
--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
| NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems
Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS
Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:12:33 +0000
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
Cc: marc@bowtie.nl, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:23:33PM +0000, John Kelly wrote:
> >I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to
> >donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money.
>
> >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing.
> >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it.
>
> In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials
> don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do.
What elected officials? I don't recall ever electing anyone to the core
team. Nor, to be frank, would I want to. Core team members (and other
contributors) are self selecting, because they're willing to put the
work in, not because they present the best image to the 'voters'.
N
--
Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft?
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:22:11 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:21:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "Paul D. Robertson" <proberts@clark.net>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing.
> >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it.
>
> In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials
> don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do.
We've all seen how well that works in the real world when financial
interests get their way over the common good.
Just say "No" to FeeBSD.
Paul
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul D. Robertson "My statements in this message are personal opinions
proberts@clark.net which may have no basis whatsoever in fact."
PSB#9280
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:34:59 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: marc@bowtie.nl, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:23:33 GMT."
<35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:26:54 +0100
Message-ID: <5482.889025214@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>, John Kelly writes:
>On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100, Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
>wrote:
>
>>I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to
>>donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money.
>
>>1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing.
>>2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it.
>
>In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials
>don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do.
The real world is whatever we make it.
If you don't like the way this is done, keep your money.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:56:50 1998
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To: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
cc: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:37:21 CST."
<19980304083721.56007@mcs.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:51:16 +0100
Message-ID: <5532.889026676@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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>I understand that Jordan and the rest of the core team have their own
>priorities. They sometimes don't mesh with mine. Ok, good and well. I
>work around what I can, patch around what I can't work around, and remain
>a few rev levels back if necessary in certain areas. That level of choice
>is one of the nicities of a free operating system environment with source
>code in a CVS tree.
>
>But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able
>to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way.
Karl,
You're clearly into the category here, where you should consider paying
somebody to fix the problems which plague your machines. Remember that
many of us do not posses the needed setups to reproduce the problems
reported in the NFS area.
Poul-Henning
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 08:08:46 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:06:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard"
> <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>
> >> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
> >> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by
> >> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do
> >> that.
> >
> >This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have
> >a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate
> >funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now?
> >
> > Jordan
>
> Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do.
>
> If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone
> else will.
And if you're only attracted by the dollar amounts, MicroSoft will take
your money. You've a choice of being insulted that no one wants to
commercialize their hobby, accepting it, or going to MicroSoft, where they
will gladly take your money. As it stands now, FreeBSD will listen to you
for free, and give you far more attention than MicroSoft will give you for
10 million bucks.
If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks,
why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because
you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so?
>
> --
> Browser war over, Mozilla now free.
>
>
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data
chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 |
Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 08:08:52 1998
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To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Warner Losh <imp@village.org>,
Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
From: "Gary Palmer" <gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:06:32 PST."
<19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
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John-Mark Gurney wrote in message ID
<19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>:
> Simon Shapiro scribbled this message on Mar 3:
> > Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the
> > system.
>
> that would have to be syscons.c closely followed by sio.c... (256 revs
> to syscons and 199 revs to sio.c)...
$Id: bsd.port.mk,v 1.267 1997/11/20 05:33:56 asami Exp $
Gary (who contributed to more than a few revs of that :) )
--
Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member
FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 08:55:13 1998
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To: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
cc: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:37:21 CST."
<19980304083721.56007@mcs.net>
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:54:59 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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> But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able
> to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way.
Thats an easy one there are folks like me who are consultants which wouldn't
mine helping you to shake your money tree.
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:09:36 1998
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@home.dragondata.com>
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <5532.889026676@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Mar 4, 98 04:51:16 pm"
To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:08:51 -0600 (CST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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> Karl,
>
> You're clearly into the category here, where you should consider paying
> somebody to fix the problems which plague your machines. Remember that
> many of us do not posses the needed setups to reproduce the problems
> reported in the NFS area.
>
> Poul-Henning
On a side note: I believe that Karl and I are one of the few ISP-like
environments trying to run -current with NFS. I've got no problem with
anyone who is trusted here to come on and test NFS related patches, or
experiment a bit on my server.
Seriously, most of the bugs can be reproduced by having /usr/src over NFS,
and doing the following:
cp /dev/zero /usr/src/blah &
make buildworld -j4
That will usually cause a different panic every time, within 2 minutes. :)
It is impossible for me to copy an 80MB core file across nfs on a -current
NFS client, and a 2.2.x server. I'm in no position to pay anyone to fix it,
and I'm really not complaining. :) I'm just offering anyone who wants to
watch a busy -current SMP server, with /home and /var/mail mounted across
NFS3, a free ticket. :)
Kevin
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:11:00 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:04:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
To: Alexander Litvin <archer@lucky.net>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
In-Reply-To: <199803040740.JAA06426@grape.carrier.kiev.ua>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Alexander Litvin wrote:
> In article <34FC9BBE.6201DD56@whistle.com> you wrote:
> > NO
>
> Well, what about soft updates being commited to CURRENT?
>
> I mean - a lot of stuff is hanging as diffs, and cvsupping
> and patching each time is a bit annoying. Not to count that
> patchis are not applied cleanly sometimes.
it will be committed in the next couple of days..
>
> > (though you could try... you could make it a completely removable option
> > with appropriate ifdefs.)
>
> > but the VM interactions would be different
> > and the vfs interface has changed a bit.
>
> > but it might hurt 2.2's stability.
>
>
> > Barry Lustig wrote:
> >>
> >> Is anyone planning on back-porting soft-updates to 2.5.X?
> >> barry
>
> --
> Litvin Alexander
>
> No SIGNATURE available at this run-level
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:16:53 1998
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To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
cc: Alexander Litvin <archer@lucky.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:04:57 PST."
<Pine.BSF.3.95.980304090428.9609E-100000@current1.whistle.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:11:32 +0100
Message-ID: <5778.889031492@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <Pine.BSF.3.95.980304090428.9609E-100000@current1.whistle.com>, Julian Elischer writes:
>
>
>On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Alexander Litvin wrote:
>
>> In article <34FC9BBE.6201DD56@whistle.com> you wrote:
>> > NO
>>
>> Well, what about soft updates being commited to CURRENT?
>>
>> I mean - a lot of stuff is hanging as diffs, and cvsupping
>> and patching each time is a bit annoying. Not to count that
>> patchis are not applied cleanly sometimes.
>
>it will be committed in the next couple of days..
Not quite, we need a little more time to get the ELF integration
done.
Julian: you could use the BRANCH which -core approved for this use.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:26:26 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Kyle Mestery <mestery@winternet.com>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100, Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
> wrote:
>
> >I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to
> >donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money.
>
> >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing.
> >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it.
>
> In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials
> don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do.
>
In the real world, it's always number 2. But this is a FREE software
project. I highly doubt the core team wants people dropping by with lots
of money and even more demands as to what the money should be used for.
The fact that a lot of people work on this project as a hobby is one of
the things that makes it so attractive. Besides, arguing this point
anymore appears to be mute, as Jordan has already expressed his views.
Also, I dont recall voting for any core team members (elected officials).
--
Kyle Mestery
StorageTek's Network Systems Group
"Keep honking, I'm reloading."
"Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math."
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:51:39 1998
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From: "Rodney W. Grimes" <rgrimes@GndRsh.aac.dev.com>
Message-Id: <199803041747.JAA11059@GndRsh.aac.dev.com>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980303105926.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 10:59:26 am"
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:47:25 -0800 (PST)
Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net
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>
> On 03-Mar-98 Brian Handy wrote:
> >>> Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their
> >>> favorite core member.
> >>>
> >>Otherwise, if people don't donate, they get a picture of me, or worse,
> >>a penguin :-).
> >
> > ...and periodic mailings that if you don't send more money, we're sending
> > you more photos of the core team. :-)
>
> Here are few more ideas:
>
> $3.00 gets you a window sticker (in a yelow diamond) ``This driver Carries
> only $29.95 worth of FreeBSD CD''
I'll take 2...
>
> $5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG''
Do I get one for free if I really did have lunch with DG, heck for that
matter 50% of the core team if I'm not mistaken :-)
> $25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and...
> Agree with Him''
I'll take 3....
> The opportunities here are endless. Any Lawyer out there to incorporate,
> patent, copyright and declare these undoable?
No lawyer, by a self incorporator, could have you a 501(c)3 in a few days
in Oregon. Fully familiar with the tax code in that respect, and owe JHK
a dirt project... Also have Merchant Visa accounts and good bank relations
with a bank that gives a ____ about thier customers. Access to lega councel
that specilized in 501(c) stuff, etc, etc.... oh and I'm all of 30minutes
away from you.
--
Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com
Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:01:25 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
"John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:30:01 PST."
<XFMail.980303223001.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
References: <XFMail.980303223001.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:00:23 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <XFMail.980303223001.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> Simon Shapiro writes:
: > mechanism. For shooting people that make really ill considered
: > changes to the tree.
:
: This is one firearm brand I do not recognize. Cheap for a 357...
Well, there is a minor problem with that make. It will sometimes
explode in your hand...
: > for $500.00 you can get your own jkh motocycle faring, complete with
: > biking leathers, sport helment (complete with chuckie decal :-) and
: > three gallons of bad attitude.
:
: The last item seems to be free in these circles...
Yes. But does it come in its own 1 gallon cans, with a picture of JKH
on it? Sure, you can get free refills at any time, but the cans alone
are priceless. Any shrine to jkh would be doublely enhanced by these
icons.
: I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of
: perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to
: good, working pieces of the kernel...
:-). And you should have seen the ones that I was too sheepish to
post.... No, wait, this is sounding like Terry's unreleased tree of
mythic yore....
And for $5000 you too can be abducted by space aliens using FreeBSD to
power their ship. See interesting places, have interesting medical
proceedures done, witness untold beauty, and unspeakable horrors. Be
the topic of your very own X-Files episode (with 1/2 of the royalties
going to the FreeBSD project, of course). Finally understand the
mysteries that are src/sys/*/nfs*.c. Learn the mysteries of crop
circles andWe guarantee that you won't be abducted by anyone whose CEO
testifies before congress, or space ships run by their software....
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:09:07 1998
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:00:23 MST."
<199803041800.LAA06957@harmony.village.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:03:08 +0100
Message-ID: <5973.889034588@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <199803041800.LAA06957@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh writes:
>And for $5000 you too can be abducted by space aliens using FreeBSD to
>power their ship. See interesting places, have interesting medical
>proceedures done, witness untold beauty, and unspeakable horrors. Be
>the topic of your very own X-Files episode (with 1/2 of the royalties
>going to the FreeBSD project, of course). Finally understand the
>mysteries that are src/sys/*/nfs*.c. Learn the mysteries of crop
>circles andWe guarantee that you won't be abducted by anyone whose CEO
>testifies before congress, or space ships run by their software....
And for a mere $20 you can make $55000 in a few weeks!
Ok, can we take this of current ?
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:16:41 1998
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Cc: Steve Logue <slogue@acm.org>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net>
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<34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net>
<34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org>
<34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net>
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> >> I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets
> >> funded.
...
>
> Some have reacted with horror to this idea but it seems pragmatic to
> me.
That's because you aren't the one doing the work. You can't force me to
do the work, and as was stated, $250 is peanuts. Heck, I did $250 worth
of work last night for free working on porting an ethernet driver from
PAO to FreeBSD at my consulting wages (for free even).
> Obviously, the more you donate the more you can influence the vote,
> but that's as it should be. It's not a political democracy.
It's not a democracy at all. That's why I think a 'hint' is a better
way to go. You get the warm fuzzy feeling that you are making a choice,
but you aren't *expecting* your vote to come true. More like a wish
than a vote. :)
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:19:48 1998
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 4, 98 02:23:33 pm"
To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:19:20 -0800 (PST)
Cc: marc@bowtie.nl, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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John Kelly wrote:
> >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing.
> >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it.
>
> In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials
> don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do.
386BSD
386BSD,FreeBSD,NetBSD
386BSD,FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD
386BSD,FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD,DonorBSD
386BSD,FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD,DonorBSD,JimBSD,BobBSD,BoyBSD.
yawn.
jmb
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:24:26 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:36 -0700
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Cc: marc@bowtie.nl, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl>
<35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>
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> >I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to
> >donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money.
>
> >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing.
> >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it.
>
> In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials
> don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do.
This is my point exactly. You paid your money, you told them what you
like, but there is no guarantee that you got what you wanted. (As a
matter of fact, you probably didn't.) But, if you *like* what they did
even so, you give more money.
So, you don't get 'control', you get to state what you like and hope
that the developers choose to impliment it. If they do, great. If they
don't, great too, but you may choose not to give more money in the
future because they didn't do what you wanted them to do.
Note, there is no *expectation* of getting your way, just a hint/wish
that they will do it, that they are aware of. If alot of people 'hint'
a certain direction, it would make sense to fulfill these wishes if more
donations are desired by the core team, so it's in their best interest
to keep you happy (sort of like elected officials).
Your money is a suggestion to do things the way you like, and if they
don't follow you suggestion then you get to take your money elsewhwere.
However, you may still like the job they are doing even if they don't do
exactly the same thing you want.
No voting involved, just expressing your desire to have things done a
certain way.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:42:29 1998
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To: Kevin Day <toasty@home.dragondata.com>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:08:51 CST."
<199803041708.LAA03872@home.dragondata.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:33:43 +0100
Message-ID: <6135.889036423@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <199803041708.LAA03872@home.dragondata.com>, Kevin Day writes:
>Seriously, most of the bugs can be reproduced by having /usr/src over NFS,
>and doing the following:
>
>cp /dev/zero /usr/src/blah &
>make buildworld -j4
I just did this on a laptop that happens to be here on a visit.
only special thing here is that the laptop runs soft-updates...
ALT-F2
mount phk:/usr/src /usr/src
cd /usr/src ; make world
ALT-F1
cd /usr/src ; dd if=/dev/zero bs=32k of=foo
and it hangs solid :-(
I'll ponder the packet trace for a moment and see if I can
figure something out. The laptop is stoned and I can't get
it into DDB :-(
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:42:51 1998
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund
In-Reply-To: <199803032130.NAA17979@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Mar 3, 98 01:30:01 pm"
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:40:10 -0800 (PST)
Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier
> > for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention
> > the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller
> > than the value of the check itself...)
>
> Try a postal money order.
>
> Seriously, accepting credit card donations is expensive work. Aside
> from the 5% cut that the bank gets, you have to treat the money like
> it's on elastic.
As a ``merchant'' whos does ~$20,000k/month in Visa/Mastercard I can
correct some of this. First the rates are 1.85 to 3.5% depending on
type(Visa/MC/American Express/Etc), size(lots of small ones cost more
than a few large ones) and style(Card in Hand Swiped/Card in Hand Inprinted,
Phoned in number, Internet secure transaction, etc) of transaction.
>
> And unless you have someone else handling it for you, you won't get a
> bank's attention until you're talking in six figures a year.
If your bank won't listen to you at 5 figures a year find another bank...
smaller banks are much easier and far more flexiable in doing business
--
Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com
Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:45:53 1998
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To: Kyle Mestery <mestery@winternet.com>
cc: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:25:17 CST."
<Pine.GSO.3.96.980304112110.17620A-100000@tundra.winternet.com>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Let me see if I can get you guys back on track, the FreeBSD project
can clearly use funding to further improve the system. We can all
benefit greatly if many us donate a small amount of money and thats
specially true in my case since I spend so much time on FreeBSD that
is really easy for me to see the cost justification for a small donation.
I suggested that I would like to see further work on SMP however it is
really up to the project to see that the work gets done or to fund
whatever aspect of the system they think they can tackle on. Is that simple.
For example, *NO* amount of money is going to coherce me into doing something
I don't want to do --- got that problem right now with a small startup
project -- I ain't interested even though I know there is going to be
money made if the project is brought to completion.
With respect to companies and their targetted needs this funding channel
is not appropriate and most of you who are in this scenario know it.
So please donate to the FreeBSD Project and do *suggest* what you
like to see done . I consider both aspects equally important.
Amancio
> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100, Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to
> > >donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money.
> >
> > >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing.
> > >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it.
> >
> > In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials
> > don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do.
> >
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In-Reply-To: <19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:53:32 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: "John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>,
Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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On 04-Mar-98 John-Mark Gurney wrote:
> Simon Shapiro scribbled this message on Mar 3:
>
> [...]
>
>> I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of
>> perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to
>> good, working pieces of the kernel...
>>
>> Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of
>> the
>> system.
>
> that would have to be syscons.c closely followed by sio.c... (256 revs
> to syscons and 199 revs to sio.c)...
What about a complete subsystem award? I can think of few that can
qualify...
> p.s. Talking about sio, I have some mods that I'm going to be testing
> that actually make use of the AST/4 register, and should eliminate
> the COM_MULTIPORT option as it will only test the ports that are under
> that specific master... (now I just wish that my University would
> let me put diskless booting options in their bootp/dhcp server so I can
> boot this one machine diskless :(, guess I'm going to have to use
> PicoBSD)...
How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am
too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens.
I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood.
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:55:35 1998
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From: torstenb@onizuka.tb.9715.org (Torsten Blum)
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <19980304131132.19720@iii.co.uk> from "nik@iii.co.uk" at "Mar 4, 98 01:11:32 pm"
To: nik@iii.co.uk
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:55:08 +0100 (CET)
Cc: jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
> <hypothetical>
> 2 projects. Both of them important to FreeBSD.
>
> Project A is slick, sexy, and will attract lots of attention.
>
> Project B isn't as attractive, but still needs doing.
>
> You, the donor (who (probably) has only a small understanding of the
> FreeBSD internals) really wants project A to happen.
[...]
That's a good example. Just take a look at "commercial" software (even
Operating Systems).
Project A = nice cool feature
Project B = change of internals that are not (direcly) visible to the user,
but are necessary to fix "bugs" etc.
There are many people who want "project A" to happen for many reasons
(nice cool features etc), but since they don't understand the internals
they completly ignore "project B".
They all want "A" and the (commercial) software developers are forced
(by their management for example) to do Project A instead of Project B,
even if B is more important (from the technical point of view).
This happens all the time, and the result is Software with lots of new features
and only a few (if any) bugfixes.
Many people who "voted" for Project A then start complaining about buggy
software etc.
Guys, that's the reason why many of us use FreeBSD instead of other operating
systems.
Another point that has been mentioned: many of us have a good paid job and
we do this as a hobby because it's fun and because we're not forced to do
something that is (from the technical standpoint) less important...
-tb
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 11:19:27 1998
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cc: Kevin Day <toasty@home.dragondata.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:33:43 +0100."
<6135.889036423@critter.freebsd.dk>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:12:35 +0100
Message-ID: <6267.889038755@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <6135.889036423@critter.freebsd.dk>, Poul-Henning Kamp writes:
>In message <199803041708.LAA03872@home.dragondata.com>, Kevin Day writes:
>
>>Seriously, most of the bugs can be reproduced by having /usr/src over NFS,
>>and doing the following:
>>
>>cp /dev/zero /usr/src/blah &
>>make buildworld -j4
>
>I just did this on a laptop that happens to be here on a visit.
>only special thing here is that the laptop runs soft-updates...
>
>ALT-F2
> mount phk:/usr/src /usr/src
> cd /usr/src ; make world
>ALT-F1
> cd /usr/src ; dd if=/dev/zero bs=32k of=foo
>
>and it hangs solid :-(
>
>I'll ponder the packet trace for a moment and see if I can
>figure something out. The laptop is stoned and I can't get
>it into DDB :-(
I hate this kind of problem, I ran over the packet trace,
which btw was made on the NFS server.
At end of the crash the client (the laptop) has five outstanding
write requests which hasn't been answered or retransmitted, one
of which is the very first one.
Interestingly, the client issues a "commit" on the request it
still has outstanding about 1.4 second after it was sent, and
the commit is acked...
Now, running with "nfsiod -n 8" I can't seem to provoke the
hang, but dd will die saying that it wrote 641433600 bytes,
(3132 x 200k), but the file on my disk is only 5128192 bytes
(25*200k)
Man I wish I had time to look into this problem :-(
But it seems that raising the number of nfsiods may be a
workaround and lowering it will probably make the problem
even worse.
No panics though...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 11:24:03 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:23:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Snob Art Genre <benedict@echonyc.com>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <m0yAJJs-000614C@onizuka.tb.9715.org>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Torsten Blum wrote:
> There are many people who want "project A" to happen for many reasons
> (nice cool features etc), but since they don't understand the internals
> they completly ignore "project B".
>
> This happens all the time, and the result is Software with lots of new
> features and only a few (if any) bugfixes. Many people who "voted" for
> Project A then start complaining about buggy software etc.
>
> Guys, that's the reason why many of us use FreeBSD instead of other
> operating systems.
Hear, hear! I suspect this is the reason that FreeBSD outperforms every
commercial OS I've ever tried on x86 hardware.
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:06:24 1998
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In-Reply-To: <199803041800.LAA06957@harmony.village.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:13:01 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE?
Cc: "John S.Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
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On 04-Mar-98 Warner Losh wrote:
> In message <XFMail.980303223001.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> Simon Shapiro
> writes:
>: > mechanism. For shooting people that make really ill considered
>: > changes to the tree.
>:
>: This is one firearm brand I do not recognize. Cheap for a 357...
>
> Well, there is a minor problem with that make. It will sometimes
> explode in your hand...
Saturday Night Special? These were federally and unconstitiutiojnally
outlawed in 1972 or so :-)
>: > for $500.00 you can get your own jkh motocycle faring, complete with
>: > biking leathers, sport helment (complete with chuckie decal :-) and
>: > three gallons of bad attitude.
>:
>: The last item seems to be free in these circles...
>
> Yes. But does it come in its own 1 gallon cans, with a picture of JKH
> on it? Sure, you can get free refills at any time, but the cans alone
> are priceless. Any shrine to jkh would be doublely enhanced by these
> icons.
Good idea. Now those (any) with good attitude, can have bad attitude.
>: I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of
>: perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to
>: good, working pieces of the kernel...
>
>:-). And you should have seen the ones that I was too sheepish to
> post.... No, wait, this is sounding like Terry's unreleased tree of
> mythic yore....
>
> And for $5000 you too can be abducted by space aliens using FreeBSD to
> power their ship. See interesting places, have interesting medical
> proceedures done, witness untold beauty, and unspeakable horrors. Be
> the topic of your very own X-Files episode (with 1/2 of the royalties
> going to the FreeBSD project, of course). Finally understand the
> mysteries that are src/sys/*/nfs*.c. Learn the mysteries of crop
> circles andWe guarantee that you won't be abducted by anyone whose CEO
> testifies before congress, or space ships run by their software....
I have nothing to say here. I am speechless.
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:49:37 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:44:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Beattie <Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com>
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG,
Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
> > deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by
> > the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do
> > that.
>
> This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have
> a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate
> funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now?
>
I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money
and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort
directly.
One thing that concerns me is the following:
UNIX version 6 had in some sense three offspring, Research Edition 8
(which never really made it out of the labs), BSD 4.4 and System V. If
one considers the funding model of the last two, do we really want large
amounts of corporate money?
Brian Beattie
Atlas PrePaid Services
Brian_Beattie@atlas.com
503.228.1400x4355
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:57:45 1998
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To: Brian Beattie <Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>,
dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:44:56 PST."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980304123946.19978E-100000@coyote.prepaid.atlas.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:52:31 +0100
Message-ID: <6845.889044751@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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>One thing that concerns me is the following:
>
>UNIX version 6 had in some sense three offspring, Research Edition 8
>(which never really made it out of the labs), BSD 4.4 and System V. If
>one considers the funding model of the last two, do we really want large
>amounts of corporate money?
No, I don't think we do, but it would be really nice if we could get
a handful of the best hackers we have liberated from the utter waste
of time which occupies too much of their lives.
And before anybody starts the crack jokes on this one: I'm not talking
about wifes and kids here!
And yes, I'm fully aware of the old saying "Beware what you ask for,
you may end up getting it!"
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:58:19 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:58:03 -0500
From: Adam Ryan Mcdougall <mcdougall@ameritech.net>
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Subject: trafshow broken on curent?
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I have encountered this on several 3.0-current systems.
# make all
>> Checksum OK for trafshow-2.0.tgz.
===> Extracting for trafshow-2.0
===> Patching for trafshow-2.0
===> Applying FreeBSD patches for trafshow-2.0
===> Configuring for trafshow-2.0
===> Building for trafshow-2.0
cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c addrtoname.c
cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf.c
cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_dump.c
cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_filter.c
cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_image.c
cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c etherent.c
cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c gencode.c
cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c inet.c
cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c interfaces.c
In file included from interfaces.c:26:
/usr/include/net/if_slvar.h:69: field `sc_comp' has incomplete type
*** Error code 1
Stop.
*** Error code 1
Stop.
*** Error code 1
Stop.
*** Error code 1
Stop.
*** Error code 1
Stop.
#
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:59:34 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:59:47 -0500
From: Leo Papandreou <leo@talcom.net>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk>
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:41:49PM +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
>
> Letting the voters decide what gets funded is also a stunningly bad idea.
"Turning PCs into Quake Stations."
>
> N
> --
> Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
> Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need
> Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft?
Fragging?
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 13:12:32 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199803042111.QAA02487@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <5532.889026676@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Mar 4, 98 04:51:16 pm"
To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:11:55 -0500 (EST)
Cc: karl@mcs.net, jak@cetlink.net, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG,
chuckr@glue.umd.edu, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Poul-Henning Kamp said:
>
> >I understand that Jordan and the rest of the core team have their own
> >priorities. They sometimes don't mesh with mine. Ok, good and well. I
> >work around what I can, patch around what I can't work around, and remain
> >a few rev levels back if necessary in certain areas. That level of choice
> >is one of the nicities of a free operating system environment with source
> >code in a CVS tree.
> >
> >But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able
> >to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way.
>
> Karl,
>
> You're clearly into the category here, where you should consider paying
> somebody to fix the problems which plague your machines. Remember that
> many of us do not posses the needed setups to reproduce the problems
> reported in the NFS area.
>
Also, it is a matter of time allocation. For example, my employer gets
first-dibs on my time, and their problems get fixed with all of my
attention. Project wide-goals get lower priority, not because I don't
want to do/fix them, but I just don't have time.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 13:13:06 1998
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@home.dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199803042111.PAA29425@home.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <6267.889038755@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Mar 4, 98 08:12:35 pm"
To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:11:36 -0600 (CST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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> >I just did this on a laptop that happens to be here on a visit.
> >only special thing here is that the laptop runs soft-updates...
> >
> >ALT-F2
> > mount phk:/usr/src /usr/src
> > cd /usr/src ; make world
> >ALT-F1
> > cd /usr/src ; dd if=/dev/zero bs=32k of=foo
> >
> >and it hangs solid :-(
> >
> >I'll ponder the packet trace for a moment and see if I can
> >figure something out. The laptop is stoned and I can't get
> >it into DDB :-(
>
> I hate this kind of problem, I ran over the packet trace,
> which btw was made on the NFS server.
>
> At end of the crash the client (the laptop) has five outstanding
> write requests which hasn't been answered or retransmitted, one
> of which is the very first one.
>
> Interestingly, the client issues a "commit" on the request it
> still has outstanding about 1.4 second after it was sent, and
> the commit is acked...
>
> Now, running with "nfsiod -n 8" I can't seem to provoke the
> hang, but dd will die saying that it wrote 641433600 bytes,
> (3132 x 200k), but the file on my disk is only 5128192 bytes
> (25*200k)
>
> Man I wish I had time to look into this problem :-(
>
> But it seems that raising the number of nfsiods may be a
> workaround and lowering it will probably make the problem
> even worse.
>
> No panics though...
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
> phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
> "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
>
I actually got better stability with no nfsiods. :)
But, having like 16 running seems to help. (although nothing other than the
first one ever gets over 0:00 run time)
I usually get a panic message, "nfsbioread", "bwrite: bufffer is not
busy???", or just a lockup.
For me, cp /var/crash/vmcore.0 /home/toasty/crash (with /home being mounted)
will usually cause a total lockup or instant reboot. (This is over 100 base
T), If I force it to go through 10 base T, it will usually behave more. :)
In any case, I've made no progress figuring it out myself. :)
Kevin
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 13:17:08 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199803042116.QAA02509@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <199803041708.LAA03872@home.dragondata.com> from Kevin Day at "Mar 4, 98 11:08:51 am"
To: toasty@home.dragondata.com (Kevin Day)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:16:19 -0500 (EST)
Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Kevin Day said:
> > Karl,
> >
> > You're clearly into the category here, where you should consider paying
> > somebody to fix the problems which plague your machines. Remember that
> > many of us do not posses the needed setups to reproduce the problems
> > reported in the NFS area.
> >
> > Poul-Henning
>
> On a side note: I believe that Karl and I are one of the few ISP-like
> environments trying to run -current with NFS. I've got no problem with
> anyone who is trusted here to come on and test NFS related patches, or
> experiment a bit on my server.
>
> Seriously, most of the bugs can be reproduced by having /usr/src over NFS,
> and doing the following:
>
> cp /dev/zero /usr/src/blah &
> make buildworld -j4
>
> That will usually cause a different panic every time, within 2 minutes. :)
>
I have a much simpler test that will cause a panic within about 10seconds. That
is one of my highest priorities now, and I am still trying to trace down the
very subtile problem.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 13:29:17 1998
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X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: gdb dying in -current
From: Gary Jennejohn <garyj@muc.de>
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I forget who had a problem with gdb core dumping under -current (but the
program he was trying to debug is called pot). Anyway, here's a diff
that allows me to run gdb on that binary. Check it out and provide
feedback, whoever you were :-) [beware - cut&paste !!!]
--- /contrib/gdb/gdb/partial-stab.h.ctm Wed Mar 4 22:16:31 1998
+++ /contrib/gdb/gdb/partial-stab.h Wed Mar 4 22:18:22 1998
@@ -568,10 +568,10 @@
the bounds created by N_SO symbols. If that's the case
use the address of this function as the low bound for
the partial symbol table. */
- if (pst->textlow == 0
+ if (pst && (pst->textlow == 0
|| (CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE < pst->textlow
&& CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE
- != ANOFFSET (section_offsets, SECT_OFF_TEXT)))
+ != ANOFFSET (section_offsets, SECT_OFF_TEXT))))
pst->textlow = CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE;
#endif /* DBXREAD_ONLY */
add_psymbol_to_list (namestring, p - namestring,
@@ -607,10 +607,10 @@
the bounds created by N_SO symbols. If that's the case
use the address of this function as the low bound for
the partial symbol table. */
- if (pst->textlow == 0
+ if (pst && (pst->textlow == 0
|| (CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE < pst->textlow
&& CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE
- != ANOFFSET (section_offsets, SECT_OFF_TEXT)))
+ != ANOFFSET (section_offsets, SECT_OFF_TEXT))))
pst->textlow = CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE;
#endif /* DBXREAD_ONLY */
add_psymbol_to_list (namestring, p - namestring,
--------
Gary Jennejohn
Home - garyj@muc.de
Work - garyj@fkr.dec.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:31:46 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG,
chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:07:29 GMT."
<35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:30:34 -0800
Message-ID: <3784.889054234@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone
> else will.
Sigh. Last round: An arbitrary and contraining system of votes does
not constitute a meaningful donor incentive. It might give the donor
warm fuzzy feelings, but it's not meaningful in any real sense of the
word and for an explanation as to why, please see my earlier posting
on this topic.
Besides, you've already had a number of people tell you that they think
this is a bad idea and yet you persist in trying to ram it down our
throats. That is not logical behavior.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:40:05 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:41:54 GMT
Message-ID: <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:06:51 -0500 (EST), Chuck Robey
<chuckr@glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks,
>why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because
>you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so?
>
It started as a hobby but now my interest is primarily for business
use.
If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow
into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do.
And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and
call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like.
I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising
developers will step in to fill that demand.
--
Browser war over, Mozilla now free.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:41:59 1998
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To: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
cc: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>,
dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:37:21 CST."
<19980304083721.56007@mcs.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:40:39 -0800
Message-ID: <3862.889054839@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> The issue is that there are certain things that we really *NEED* fixed, and
> to stay as priorities in remaining fixed as time goes on (things that used
> to work, and are now broken for example - specifically, NFS issues for one,
> and behavior under troublesome SCSI conditions [ie: returns of a defective
> block from the controller] for another). I'm running kernels and OSs
And as I've already noted, if you have a *specific* thing that needs
fixing then by all means, find some willing contractors and fund the
work independantly. We'll be more than happy to take a look at
whatever they come up with and, if it's not a total hack, incorporate
it (and note that even if we'd developed a solution internally, it
*still* wouldn't make it in if it turned out to be a total hack and so
nothing is changed by you doing it vs us doing it).
If all this controversy about voting and being coopted by commercial
interests and such has shown me one thing with crystal clarity, it's
that we honestly DON'T WANT funding from certain segments of the user
population. As I've already stated, even large chunks of cash with
thick strings attached are not really wanted since you've only palmed
off the responsibility for finding personnel and filling out their W2
forms on me and I don't want that - I'd much rather YOU (the
figurative you, not necessarily Karl) fill out the W2 forms and deal
with the headaches of managing the employee(s) in question. I have
enough headaches as it is and the more administrative work you pile on
me or anyone else in the core team, the less time I have for doing the
kinds of FreeBSD work I want to do and will keep me in this project.
Different headaches with much larger $$$ figures attached to them I
can have already by simply chucking all this and going back into the
commercial software industry.
Jordan
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Kyle Mestery <mestery@winternet.com>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:47:04 GMT
Message-ID: <34fee706.41340509@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:17 -0600 (CST), Kyle Mestery
<mestery@winternet.com> wrote:
>Besides, arguing this point anymore appears to be mute, as Jordan has
>already expressed his views.
Why, is Jordan the king of FreeBSD?
>Also, I dont recall voting for any core team members (elected officials).
I was speaking to the fact that the disposition, use, and development
of freed software cannot be controlled exclusively by an individual or
group, not even by the core team.
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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> >If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks,
> >why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because
> >you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so?
> >
>
> It started as a hobby but now my interest is primarily for business
> use.
Great, go hire a FreeBSD developer full-time, and you'll get the best of
both worlds.
> If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow
> into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do.
History disagrees with you.
> And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and
> call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like.
You mean like 'BSDi'? Me-thinks such an organization already exists,
and isn't doing so well IMHO.
Nate
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:51:10 GMT
Message-ID: <34ffe875.41707848@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl> <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> <199803041823.LAA10052@mt.sri.com>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:36 -0700, Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
wrote:
>So, you don't get 'control', you get to state what you like and hope
>that the developers choose to impliment it. If they do, great. If they
>don't, great too, but you may choose not to give more money in the
>future because they didn't do what you wanted them to do.
I understand your reasoning, but it's not enough incentive to make me
part with my money. Clearly many have agreed with your viewpoint, but
I also think there are many others who will agree with mine.
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:54:01 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:41:54 GMT."
<34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:06:51 -0500 (EST), Chuck Robey
> <chuckr@glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>
> >If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks,
> >why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because
> >you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so?
> >
>
> It started as a hobby but now my interest is primarily for business
> use.
Great! This is how a lot of serious organisations first come to meet
FreeBSD, and it's a testament to the product that it covers both sides
of the coin as well as it does.
> If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow
> into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do.
> And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and
> call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like.
Sure, that's what the BSD spirit is all about. In fact, this has
happened already. It's called BSD/OS though, not BigBucksBSD.
> I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising
> developers will step in to fill that demand.
I expect that your perspective will broaden with time. Right now, all
we are asking you to do is to look and listen for a while. The people
that are steering the FreeBSD project all have extensive project
development experience; I would hesitate to broadly criticise their
style without a lot more information than you can possibly posess.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:55:24 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Brian Beattie <Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:57:00 GMT
Message-ID: <3500e925.41883882@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:44:56 -0800 (PST), Brian Beattie
<Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com> wrote:
>I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money
>and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort
>directly.
That causes fragmentation and duplication of efforts. Collective
unity is better.
>UNIX version 6 had in some sense three offspring, Research Edition 8
>(which never really made it out of the labs), BSD 4.4 and System V. If
>one considers the funding model of the last two, do we really want large
>amounts of corporate money?
As long as the software remains "freed" it cannot be corrupted by any
amount of money. Anyone unhappy with the changes can always split to
form their own movement, maintaining collective unity within their own
interest group.
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:02:37 GMT
Message-ID: <3501ea66.42205029@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:52:31 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp
<phk@critter.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>do we really want large amounts of corporate money?
>No, I don't think we do, but it would be really nice if we could get
>a handful of the best hackers we have liberated from the utter waste
>of time which occupies too much of their lives.
Whether the money is small or large, I don't see why anyone should be
unwilling to work at the direction of those funding the effort. They
do it at their current employment, why not for the paying donors of
FreeBSD?
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:02:29 1998
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From: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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>>Besides, arguing this point anymore appears to be mute, as Jordan has
>>already expressed his views.
>
>Why, is Jordan the king of FreeBSD?
Because he's the guy running the VISA card machine?
>>Also, I dont recall voting for any core team members (elected officials).
>
>I was speaking to the fact that the disposition, use, and development
>of freed software cannot be controlled exclusively by an individual or
>group, not even by the core team.
While this isn't always the case, I don't see many people in violent
disagreement with him. (And...I have seen this. Let's all go relive the
Tcl wars, shall we. :-) The whole point of this 'donation' thing (or so I
thought) was some avenue to give back to the project. I've done most of
my thesis work from a FreeBSD platform, so I fired off a check, and if
Jordan wants to spend that on pizza for the core team, hey, that's great.
If I *absolutely* needed NFS fixed, I'd pony up more than I just did and
probably fire it off to whoever the NFS guy is. (My apologies to you, NFS
guy. I've forgotten who you are. :-) But this childish crap about "I'm
only donating if you do XXX with my money" is dumb. Do you think Sally
Struthers cares what you want her to do with your monthly donation? I
don't think so!
Brian "I'm out of the house now, but still a mite cagey" Handy
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:02:49 1998
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Organization: Defence Science Technology Organisation
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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Yeh, that's pretty annoying.
Though its not occurring as much currently as it was a few weeks
ago.
There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ?
or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that.
Simon Shapiro wrote:
>
> How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am
> too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens.
> I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood.
>
> Simon
>
--
Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249
Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537
Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Salisbury
PO Box 1500 Salisbury South Australia 5108
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Subject: Re: Donations.
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> >I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money
> >and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort
> >directly.
>
> That causes fragmentation and duplication of efforts. Collective
> unity is better.
Back that up with facts, or even explanations, please?
I see no such fragmentation or duplication of effort that commercial
entities would cause that's any different than what happens currently
with mostly volunteer projects.
People have (and will continue) the ability and desire to do *anything*
they want, including doing the same project that someone else is doing.
Commercial and/or volunteer, that's not going to change.
Your straw-man argument has no merit.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:11:46 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:13:23 GMT
Message-ID: <3502ed57.42957721@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <199803042351.PAA22893@dingo.cdrom.com>
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On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:51:28 -0800, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
wrote:
>Sure, that's what the BSD spirit is all about. In fact, this has
>happened already. It's called BSD/OS though, not BigBucksBSD.
I know about them too.
>> I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising
>> developers will step in to fill that demand.
>
>I expect that your perspective will broaden with time. Right now, all
>we are asking you to do is to look and listen for a while.
I plan to. There's nowhere else to go, at least not now.
>The people that are steering the FreeBSD project all have extensive
>project development experience; I would hesitate to broadly criticise
>their style without a lot more information than you can possibly posess.
Good advice. I'll try to remember it.
--
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:02:37 GMT."
<3501ea66.42205029@mail.cetlink.net>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:52:31 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp
> <phk@critter.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
> >>do we really want large amounts of corporate money?
>
> >No, I don't think we do, but it would be really nice if we could get
> >a handful of the best hackers we have liberated from the utter waste
> >of time which occupies too much of their lives.
>
> Whether the money is small or large, I don't see why anyone should be
> unwilling to work at the direction of those funding the effort. They
> do it at their current employment, why not for the paying donors of
> FreeBSD?
None at all. But if the "paying donors" are balkanised into $250 paying
shares, there isn't going to be any "direction".
If, as a paying donor, you want control of the use of your money, I
recommend approaching one or more of the available FreeBSD-literate
consultants. Many of them will work on FreeBSD for competitive if not
downright discount amounts.
Your $250 would, for example, buy an evening of my time, during which I
would conscientiously work on whatever you asked for. I'm pretty cheap,
but have fairly low availability. If this isn't enough, then you need
to find, on your own bat, other donors that share your motivation.
There's nothing stopping you doing this, and in fact it would be
encouraged.
What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers
are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and
organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been
said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have
either ignored or simply failed to understand it.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:15:36 1998
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <34ffe875.41707848@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl>
<35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>
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> >So, you don't get 'control', you get to state what you like and hope
> >that the developers choose to impliment it. If they do, great. If they
> >don't, great too, but you may choose not to give more money in the
> >future because they didn't do what you wanted them to do.
>
> I understand your reasoning, but it's not enough incentive to make me
> part with my money. Clearly many have agreed with your viewpoint, but
> I also think there are many others who will agree with mine.
No-one who'd accept your money does it appears, so it's kind of a moot
point.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:18:24 1998
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To: Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:30:05 +1030."
<34FDEB05.9CA1F531@dsto.defence.gov.au>
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> There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ?
> or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that.
Yeah, before the message was actually printed. Let's take all those
annoying warning messages out of the kernel, so that you can't tell
what is going wrong. It works for Microsoft, after all.
> Simon Shapiro wrote:
> >
> > How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am
> > too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens.
You could try reading the manpage, just for starters.
> > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood.
Na und? They're sufficiently well understood for unrecoverable
error conditions to be detected and reported. What more do you want?
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:22:43 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:24:26 GMT
Message-ID: <3503ee97.43278373@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980304155724.3027C-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:21 -0800 (PST), Brian Handy
<handy@sag.space.lockheed.com> wrote:
>But this childish crap about "I'm only donating if you do XXX with
>my money" is dumb.
No, that's an ultimatum and I never proposed that. I proposed that I
have a vote. My vote would be collected with all the other votes and
the collective vote would determine the funded projects. If my
project does survive the vote, I accept that as part of the voting
process, without asking for my money back.
My point is that work funded from a large budget should be determined
by the donors, not Jordan or other members of the core team. That's
the purpose of a vote. If Jordan and other members of the core team
don't like that model, I expect to see other movements which do.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:28:47 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:30:25 GMT
Message-ID: <3504f132.43945382@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980304123946.19978E-100000@coyote.prepaid.atlas.com> <3500e925.41883882@mail.cetlink.net> <199803050007.RAA13519@mt.sri.com>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:07:45 -0700, Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
wrote:
>> >I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money
>> >and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort
>> >directly.
>>
>> That causes fragmentation and duplication of efforts. Collective
>> unity is better.
>
>Back that up with facts, or even explanations, please?
If you have 50 contractors all working and paid independently, with
little or no knowledge of what the others are doing, duplication and
wasted effort is inevitable. On the other hand, a funded FreeBSD
could be a clearinghouse for better organization.
>People have (and will continue) the ability and desire to do *anything*
>they want, including doing the same project that someone else is doing.
>Commercial and/or volunteer, that's not going to change.
>
>Your straw-man argument has no merit.
Sorry, can't agree with you there.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:30:15 1998
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From: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <3503ee97.43278373@mail.cetlink.net>
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>>But this childish crap about "I'm only donating if you do XXX with
>>my money" is dumb.
>
>No, that's an ultimatum and I never proposed that. I proposed that I
>have a vote.
I think your proposal was a bit stronger than that.
>My vote would be collected with all the other votes and
>the collective vote would determine the funded projects. If my
>project does survive the vote, I accept that as part of the voting
>process, without asking for my money back.
This isn't what I remember hearing at all. It's starting to sound vaguely
like the vote-tokens of yesteryear, which drowned in nearly the same
level of fury.
>My point is that work funded from a large budget should be determined
>by the donors, not Jordan or other members of the core team. That's
>the purpose of a vote. If Jordan and other members of the core team
>don't like that model, I expect to see other movements which do.
Jordan doesn't like the model. From what I can tell, nobody in -core
likes the model. Nate doesn't like it, neither do I. Mike Smith proposed
a much better model; mail him your check and he'll give you as much time
as he can.
Brian
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:31:15 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:37:15 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
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On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote:
>> There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ?
>> or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that.
>
> Yeah, before the message was actually printed. Let's take all those
> annoying warning messages out of the kernel, so that you can't tell
> what is going wrong. It works for Microsoft, after all.
If the ``problem'' is harmless. then do not print it. Make the printing
optional?
...
> You could try reading the manpage, just for starters.
Do you think I did not? I did and I do not agree with what it says.
>> > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood.
>
> Na und? They're sufficiently well understood for unrecoverable
> error conditions to be detected and reported. What more do you want?
Perfection :-) The world, as a whole knows how to never overflow a UART
for quite some time. There are transmission errors, of course. These
either get thrown out, or passed up to the error resilient layer. Thisis
particularly valid view in the case of TCP/IP over PPP, which has at least
two places in which to handle the error. I do not see an Ethernet card
report error per collision.
This is easy for me to say and agravating for you to read, as I am being
jugmental over something I had zero contribution for and almost as much
investigation. The context of the comment was work on the sio.c driver.
If it is your opinion that the driver is optimal, and these errors are
unavoidable, I'll accept this opinion and assume that my impression, as
expressed above, is erroneous. Really.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:34:06 1998
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Subject: Re: Donations.
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References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980304123946.19978E-100000@coyote.prepaid.atlas.com>
<3500e925.41883882@mail.cetlink.net>
<199803050007.RAA13519@mt.sri.com>
<3504f132.43945382@mail.cetlink.net>
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> >> >I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money
> >> >and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort
> >> >directly.
> >>
> >> That causes fragmentation and duplication of efforts. Collective
> >> unity is better.
> >
> >Back that up with facts, or even explanations, please?
>
> If you have 50 contractors all working and paid independently, with
> little or no knowledge of what the others are doing, duplication and
> wasted effort is inevitable. On the other hand, a funded FreeBSD
> could be a clearinghouse for better organization.
And if these folks are working on FreeBSD, thus affecting one another
and the rest of the project, why are they all of a sudden working in a
vacuum when they get paid with commercial funs more so than when they
work for free?
Again, the argument has no merit.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:34:09 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:41:54 GMT."
<34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:32:45 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising
> developers will step in to fill that demand.
Excellent. Why not go for it and show us that you're capable of
putting your efforts where your mouth is?
Jordan
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:38:07 GMT
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On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:11:25 -0800, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
wrote:
>What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers
>are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and
>organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been
>said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have
>either ignored or simply failed to understand it.
You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small.
I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which
may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which
can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the
coders for what they do best.
Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will
begin to see the light.
--
Browser war over, Mozilla now free.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:41:57 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:43:48 GMT
Message-ID: <3506f518.44943369@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <4306.889057965@time.cdrom.com>
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On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:32:45 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard"
<jkh@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>> I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising
>> developers will step in to fill that demand.
>
>Excellent. Why not go for it and show us that you're capable of
>putting your efforts where your mouth is?
Good reply. But if I don't do it, someone else will.
--
Browser war over, Mozilla now free.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:46:16 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:38:07 GMT."
<3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:44:37 -0800
Message-ID: <4400.889058677@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which
> may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which
> can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the
> coders for what they do best.
Yes, and as someone has already very succintly pointed out, we don't
like your model and we reject it. You're now free to go form another
BSD project since we're all evidently heathens who cannot and will not
be enlightened by the wisdom of John Kelly and I'd HOPE that would be
the end of it but you continue to sound off on this topic as if you
could somehow get your point across by repetition and volume, not
unlike one of those foolish american tourists who reacts to
non-speakers of english by raising his voice and speaking more slowly.
Enough! If you're really not just here to treat us all to the sound
of your own voice, regardless of the futility of the argument, then
kindly prove it by giving this tired topic a rest already - yeesh!
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:50:08 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:51:59 GMT
Message-ID: <3507f6df.45398917@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <4400.889058677@time.cdrom.com>
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On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:44:37 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard"
<jkh@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>Yes, and as someone has already very succintly pointed out, we don't
>like your model and we reject it. You're now free to go form another
>BSD project since we're all evidently heathens who cannot and will not
>be enlightened by the wisdom of John Kelly and I'd HOPE that would be
>the end of it
If the thread dies, I won't resurrect it. Fair enough?
--
Browser war over, Mozilla now free.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:50:17 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:37:15 PST."
<XFMail.980304163715.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:46:57 -0800
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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>
> On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote:
>
> >> There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ?
> >> or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that.
> >
> > Yeah, before the message was actually printed. Let's take all those
> > annoying warning messages out of the kernel, so that you can't tell
> > what is going wrong. It works for Microsoft, after all.
>
> If the ``problem'' is harmless. then do not print it. Make the printing
> optional?
- Harmless problems don't generally warrant (or have) messages.
- The problem that results in this message is not harmless.
- The printing is entirely optional. You have the source.
> > You could try reading the manpage, just for starters.
>
> Do you think I did not? I did and I do not agree with what it says.
Uh, you said that you don't know what the message means. The manpage
tells you. If you read the manpage you can't claim to not know what
the message means. If you are in a position to disagree at all, it can
only be because you believe you know more than the manpage author.
> >> > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood.
> >
> > Na und? They're sufficiently well understood for unrecoverable
> > error conditions to be detected and reported. What more do you want?
>
> Perfection :-) The world, as a whole knows how to never overflow a UART
> for quite some time.
It does? I wish someone had told me, or any of the countless thousands
of people that have spent millions of programmer hours working with
what we obviously mistakenly thought were the fundamentals of
asynchronous serial communications.
> There are transmission errors, of course. These
> either get thrown out, or passed up to the error resilient layer. This is
> particularly valid view in the case of TCP/IP over PPP, which has at least
> two places in which to handle the error.
... neither of which provide a mechanism for in-band signalling of
dropouts. You can argue the merits of this, but you're attempting to
misdirect the topic.
I do not see an Ethernet card
> report error per collision.
This is not a valid comparison; a collision is a recoverable
("harmless") error. You *will* see ethernet drivers (not cards)
reporting unrecoverable errors, which is what a FIFO overrun is.
> This is easy for me to say and agravating for you to read, as I am being
> jugmental over something I had zero contribution for and almost as much
> investigation.
It certainly does wonders for your reputation.
> If it is your opinion that the driver is optimal, and these errors are
> unavoidable, I'll accept this opinion and assume that my impression, as
> expressed above, is erroneous. Really.
The sio driver is about as good as they get; you are welcome to talk to
Bruce Evans (bde@freebsd.org), the principal maintainer of same, and
David Nugent (davidn@freebsd.org), the author of the BNU FOSSIL driver,
if you want some extremely well-respected opinions on the quality of
said code.
Meanwhile, I would suggest that you look at "silo overflow" messages in
their correct light, which is as indicative of a serious interrupt
response problem on your system.
You may find it informative to modify the spl* routines to keep track
of time spent with various interrupt types masked in order to identify
the sorts of activity which lead to these problems.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:54:37 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:38:07 GMT."
<3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net>
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:50:21 -0800
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> On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:11:25 -0800, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> >What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers
> >are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and
> >organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been
> >said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have
> >either ignored or simply failed to understand it.
>
> You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small.
No, I get it just fine. You're talking about a ridiculously
hypothetical model while we are trying to do something useful.
> Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will
> begin to see the light.
If I am to think in that order of magnitude, I will make some decidedly
uncharitable suggestions about what you can do with your $250 donation.
However, slipping back to the real world, your $250 would allow us to
obtain any of a number of very useful items to aid developers in
supporting real hardware. Or you could save us an hour of shopping
time and, having identified a problem item, donate it.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:01:00 1998
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From: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 00:38:07 am"
To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:03:28 +1100 (EST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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John Kelly wrote:
> You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small.
>
> I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which
> may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which
> can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the
> coders for what they do best.
>
> Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will
> begin to see the light.
Now think in terms of the human resources and infrastructure required
to manage such cash flow. With FreeBSD currently a volunteer project,
the management responsibilities are assigned to core members and
possibly delegated by them, at their discretion. When you start "thinking
big", the first thing you do is to break the current management model.
You asked why Jordan is "king" of FreeBSD. My perspective is: he's
earned that (implied) title. I attribute a lot of the success of FreeBSD
to those individuals who have earnt our respect by contributing. I don't
want to see any change that might affect their involvement. Expecting
them to manage a funded organisation is unreasonable. And expecting them
to stand back while others step in to manage FreeBSD, that's unreasonable
too, IMO.
I like the concept where companies like WC, NCI and Whistle pay FreeBSD
developers to work on what suits them. They take the management load,
and we benefit, without any real cost. Many of us (particularly me 8-)
would jump at the chance to work in this way.
--
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137
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To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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In article <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> you write:
>
>Anything else while we're on the topic? :)
Paper "bill" so I can keep our accoutants happy.
This will be required by just about everybody who's boss is going to
pay/donate.
--WjW
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:18:15 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote:
...
Lots of good things...
...
I am totally out of line, sio.c is a wonderful thing, I wans totally wrong
and apologize for anything critical I said.
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:23:39 1998
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To: Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@surf.IAEhv.nl>
cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:14:02 +0100."
<199803050114.CAA19120@surf.IAEhv.nl>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:22:32 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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> Paper "bill" so I can keep our accoutants happy.
> This will be required by just about everybody who's boss is going to
> pay/donate.
I think I can manage that.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:34:31 1998
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From: "Alfred Perlstein" <perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu>
To: "Adam Ryan Mcdougall" <mcdougall@ameritech.net>, <current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: trafshow broken on curent?
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:29:56 -0500
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i had the same problem, it's not 3.0 causeing the problem, it's trafshow...
edit interfaces.c
and remove the line:
#include <net/if_slvar.h>
it is not needed...
-Alfred
could someone fix the port?
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Ryan Mcdougall <mcdougall@ameritech.net>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG <current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 12:05 PM
Subject: trafshow broken on curent?
>I have encountered this on several 3.0-current systems.
>
># make all
>>> Checksum OK for trafshow-2.0.tgz.
>===> Extracting for trafshow-2.0
>===> Patching for trafshow-2.0
>===> Applying FreeBSD patches for trafshow-2.0
>===> Configuring for trafshow-2.0
>===> Building for trafshow-2.0
>cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c addrtoname.c
>cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf.c
>cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_dump.c
>cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_filter.c
>cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_image.c
>cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c etherent.c
>cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c gencode.c
>cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c inet.c
>cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c interfaces.c
>In file included from interfaces.c:26:
>/usr/include/net/if_slvar.h:69: field `sc_comp' has incomplete type
>*** Error code 1
>
>Stop.
>*** Error code 1
>
>Stop.
>*** Error code 1
>
>Stop.
>*** Error code 1
>
>Stop.
>*** Error code 1
>
>Stop.
>#
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:36:26 1998
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From: Brian Beattie <Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com>
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To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Donations.
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:32:45 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard"
> <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
>
> >> I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising
> >> developers will step in to fill that demand.
> >
> >Excellent. Why not go for it and show us that you're capable of
> >putting your efforts where your mouth is?
>
> Good reply. But if I don't do it, someone else will.
>
Then they will. Should the FreeBSD core change to stop or help this? Or
should the FreeBSD team continue to set its own goals.
Brian Beattie
Atlas PrePaid Services
Brian_Beattie@atlas.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:37:47 1998
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current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:11:25 -0800, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> >What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers
> >are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and
> >organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been
> >said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have
> >either ignored or simply failed to understand it.
>
> You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small.
>
> I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which
> may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which
> can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the
> coders for what they do best.
>
> Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will
> begin to see the light.
>
I think the answer you are getting from the core team and some of us
others is, that you are free to take your $10M and form a consortium to
develop any features you wish based on FreeBSD. You may also give these
changes back to the FreeBSD team would will gladly incorporate any changes
that fit with their goals. You can also create your own $BSD and sell it
under any sort of license you wish.
Brian Beattie
Atlas PrePaid Services
Brian_Beattie@atlas.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:45:09 1998
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From: Kris Kennaway <kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au>
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@surf.IAEhv.nl>, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG,
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Subject: Enough already! (Was Re: Donations.)
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
Can this thread please be moved off of -current to -chat or somewhere
more appropriate? The past several hundred messages have had little to
do with FreeBSD-current :-)
Cheers,
Kris
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:08:58 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
CC: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
References: <199803050047.QAA23134@dingo.cdrom.com>
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Mike,
You're being a bit too agressive with Simon here.
Lets get this thread back on track.
Simon is seeing an error message, so am I. I think many people
are also seeing it.
Now the frequency of this message has changed a lot since the 2.1R
days which would seem to indicate that something can be done
about the processing of interrupts to reduce the occurrance of
FIFO overflows.
This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using
ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100.
Also this problem occurs on many machines Pentium 166, Pentium 100
etc. It does not only occur on 486SX25's or other such low end
machines. (I have a Pentium 166 and a V.FC modem).
Now is it really a problem ?
100 overflows in two hours probably wont make much difference to
throughput so maybe the error message should be suppressed but
that would hide possible future deterioration of interrupt
handling.
I cant do anything about it as I dont have the skills or time.
But maybe it should be seriously discussed.
Mike Smith wrote:
>
> >
> > On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote:
> >
> > >> There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ?
> > >> or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that.
> > >
> > > Yeah, before the message was actually printed. Let's take all those
> > > annoying warning messages out of the kernel, so that you can't tell
> > > what is going wrong. It works for Microsoft, after all.
> >
> > If the ``problem'' is harmless. then do not print it. Make the printing
> > optional?
>
> - Harmless problems don't generally warrant (or have) messages.
> - The problem that results in this message is not harmless.
> - The printing is entirely optional. You have the source.
>
> > > You could try reading the manpage, just for starters.
> >
> > Do you think I did not? I did and I do not agree with what it says.
>
> Uh, you said that you don't know what the message means. The manpage
> tells you. If you read the manpage you can't claim to not know what
> the message means. If you are in a position to disagree at all, it can
> only be because you believe you know more than the manpage author.
>
> > >> > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood.
> > >
> > > Na und? They're sufficiently well understood for unrecoverable
> > > error conditions to be detected and reported. What more do you want?
> >
> > Perfection :-) The world, as a whole knows how to never overflow a UART
> > for quite some time.
>
> It does? I wish someone had told me, or any of the countless thousands
> of people that have spent millions of programmer hours working with
> what we obviously mistakenly thought were the fundamentals of
> asynchronous serial communications.
>
> > There are transmission errors, of course. These
> > either get thrown out, or passed up to the error resilient layer. This is
> > particularly valid view in the case of TCP/IP over PPP, which has at least
> > two places in which to handle the error.
>
> ... neither of which provide a mechanism for in-band signalling of
> dropouts. You can argue the merits of this, but you're attempting to
> misdirect the topic.
>
> I do not see an Ethernet card
> > report error per collision.
>
> This is not a valid comparison; a collision is a recoverable
> ("harmless") error. You *will* see ethernet drivers (not cards)
> reporting unrecoverable errors, which is what a FIFO overrun is.
>
> > This is easy for me to say and agravating for you to read, as I am being
> > jugmental over something I had zero contribution for and almost as much
> > investigation.
>
> It certainly does wonders for your reputation.
>
> > If it is your opinion that the driver is optimal, and these errors are
> > unavoidable, I'll accept this opinion and assume that my impression, as
> > expressed above, is erroneous. Really.
>
> The sio driver is about as good as they get; you are welcome to talk to
> Bruce Evans (bde@freebsd.org), the principal maintainer of same, and
> David Nugent (davidn@freebsd.org), the author of the BNU FOSSIL driver,
> if you want some extremely well-respected opinions on the quality of
> said code.
>
> Meanwhile, I would suggest that you look at "silo overflow" messages in
> their correct light, which is as indicative of a serious interrupt
> response problem on your system.
>
> You may find it informative to modify the spl* routines to keep track
> of time spent with various interrupt types masked in order to identify
> the sorts of activity which lead to these problems.
>
> --
> \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
> \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
> \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
> \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
--
Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249
Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537
Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Salisbury
PO Box 1500 Salisbury South Australia 5108
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:10:17 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:09:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Kyle Mestery <mestery@winternet.com>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <34ffe875.41707848@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:36 -0700, Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
> wrote:
>
> >So, you don't get 'control', you get to state what you like and hope
> >that the developers choose to impliment it. If they do, great. If they
> >don't, great too, but you may choose not to give more money in the
> >future because they didn't do what you wanted them to do.
>
> I understand your reasoning, but it's not enough incentive to make me
> part with my money. Clearly many have agreed with your viewpoint, but
> I also think there are many others who will agree with mine.
>
Apparently not. I have seen only two emails up to this point that merely
defend something similar to your viewpoint. As Jordan has stated, if you
want something done, and you have the funding, then go ahead and find
developers to code what you want done. Continuing to push this issue in
this forum is obviously getting you nowhere.
--
Kyle Mestery
StorageTek's Network Systems Group
"Keep honking, I'm reloading."
"Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math."
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:18:41 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803050218.TAA02300@usr07.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Donations.u
To: Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com (Brian Beattie)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:18:18 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
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> I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money
> and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort
> directly.
The concern I would have if I were a company that funded some work
outside the management of FreeBSD proper would be whether or not,
when completed, the work would be committed back to the mainline
FreeBSD, such that it would appear and be maintained in subsequent
releases.
If there were a way to fund this under the management of FreeBSD
proper, it would go a long way toward alleviating this concern.
Example:
XYZ Corporation funds SMP work to the point of getting fine grain
parallelism operating with little or no UP impact. But in doing
this, makes a number of architectural changes that could either
have been done another way, or which have NULL value to any UP
systems, one way or the other.
The core team decides that SMP support is not important enough to
swallow the bitter architectural changes along with the sweet SMP.
Where does this leave the company who funded the work? At best,
they have an ongoing maintenance nightmare; at worst, FreeBSD
incorporates conflicting and divergent changes, which render any
advancement by FreeBSD inaccessible to the company.
I think this is why there is such a push in the postings for FreeBSD
proper to manage funded projects.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:21:27 1998
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From: "Evan Champion" <evanc@synapse.net>
To: "Matthew Thyer" <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
"Mike Smith" <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>, <current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:21:37 -0500
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>This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using
>ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100.
I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and
during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I
would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of
convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a
machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode...
Evan
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:31:31 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:30:49 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: SoftUpdates! Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980304172721.19978G-100000@coyote.prepaid.atlas.com>
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I want to see Kirk McKusick's softupdates go into the tree soon. This is
a very significant step in the development of FreeBSD. We will get higher
performance ffs without integrity compromises.
http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/papers/CSE-TR-254-95/
I think these changes in themselves warrant a 3.0 jump. Giant lock or
subsystem coarse lock SMP and softupdates is probably a good target.
When softupdates are are applied and have stabilized a bit, I'll submit
the first set of VFS_VRELE patches for vop_create, vop_mknod, and
vop_symlink.
This is mostly just grunt work but is a fundamental first step in making
the stacking layers work. It will clean up ugly hacks like WILLRELE and
make some things a lot easier to get working for file systems like devfs.
It will also prevent VT_TFS-like hacks that third parties must sometime
resort to forcing on us because we didn't have a proper VFS interface to
allow them to manage their own vnodes.
Mike Hancock
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:52:40 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:58:44 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
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On 05-Mar-98 Evan Champion wrote:
>>This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using
>>ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100.
>
>
> I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and
> during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed)
> I
> would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of
> convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a
> machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user
> mode...
Assume you are doing something like FTP of packages-current.
You are reading about 16 kilobytes per second, which is just about 1,142
interrupts per second (assuming a 16 myte FIFO and 14 byte treshold. Every
1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second. Add
10% ACK on the FTP connection, HZ heartbeat, and you have 1,400 interrupts
per second. Say 2,000 interrupts/Sec. A P6-200 will be safe in this
regard. In a RT O/S this will give us about 500us per interrupt. What do
you think?
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:53:38 1998
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To: "Evan Champion" <evanc@synapse.net>
cc: "Matthew Thyer" <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
"Mike Smith" <mike@smith.net.au>, shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:21:37 EST."
<053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> >This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using
> >ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100.
>
> I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and
> during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I
> would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of
> convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a
> machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode...
Uh, the driver works just fine.
However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_
disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware
fails to deliver them in the first place.
If you have a solution to this really quite challenging problem, I'm
sure we'd all be delighted to hear about it. Until then, please
believe me that there is nothing wrong with the driver, per se., which
"causes" these overflows.
Just incidentally, the P6 has relatively poor I/O performance,
particularly when it comes to talking to ISA peripherals.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:01:03 1998
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To: Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:37:19 +1030."
<34FE08D7.159A2AD@dsto.defence.gov.au>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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>
> Simon is seeing an error message, so am I. I think many people
> are also seeing it.
No kidding. I've been seeing it for years. It wouldn't be in the code
if it was an impossibility.
> Now the frequency of this message has changed a lot since the 2.1R
> days which would seem to indicate that something can be done
> about the processing of interrupts to reduce the occurrance of
> FIFO overflows.
Quite possibly, yes. Changes were actually made to *improve* the
interrupt handling performance of the driver. Check the CVS logs for
references to "fast interrupts", and the use of the RI_FAST flag.
But without any testing or hard numbers, your claim above is
meaningless. You haven't given any context, or demonstrated with
similar machines and loads side-by-side that there has been any
quantifiable change in system behaviour. Perhaps its your usage
profile that's changed?
> Also this problem occurs on many machines Pentium 166, Pentium 100
> etc. It does not only occur on 486SX25's or other such low end
> machines. (I have a Pentium 166 and a V.FC modem).
All this tells us is that the problem is not related to marginal CPU
speed, but we knew this already.
> But maybe it should be seriously discussed.
It has been. We know about it. But nobody that cares enough about it
has taken the time to analyse the problem. I tried to suggest, in my
response to Simon, how one might go about doing this, in the
(apparently vain) hope that someone might take me up on it.
Shall we say that slagging the 'sio' driver certainly isn't the best way
to start?
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:10:13 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:10:12 -0500
From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox)
To: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net
Mail-Followup-To: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
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In-Reply-To: <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net>; from Evan Champion on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 09:21:37PM -0500
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 09:21:37PM -0500, Evan Champion wrote:
> >This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using
> >ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100.
>
>
> I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and
> during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I
> would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of
> convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a
> machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode...
>
I had this same problem, and the following fix from John Dyson works
for me:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Try the modifications noted in the included info. I
no longer get any kind of sio messages.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
Index: sio.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v
retrieving revision 1.194
diff -r1.194 sio.c
117a118
> /*
119a121,123
> */
> #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2)
> #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4)
Add this to your system conf:
options "MSIZE=256"
options "TTYHOG=4096"
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:17:15 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
References: <XFMail.980304185844.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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Simon Shapiro wrote:
> [snip] Every 1KB, you write to disk [snip]
If you use an IDE disk then 10 to 1 that's the problem. Particularly
if the IDE driver is doing multi-sector transfers. Interrupts must be
disabled during IDE PIO transfers (or you can risk data corruption)
and the time taken to transfer, say 16 sectors, is significant. When
Linux supported Intel Triton busmaster IDE the occurance of FIFO
overflows disappeared on Triton boards.
For example I can run 6 16550 ports under Linux using busmaster
support without any FIFO overflows. However I have trouble running 2
at 57600 bps without FIFO overflows.
The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support
busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of
the PC architeture.
Cheers.
-- +------------------------------------------------------------+
. | John Saunders mailto:John.Saunders@scitec.com.au (Work) |
,--_|\ | mailto:john@nlc.net.au (Home) |
/ Oz \ | http://www.nlc.net.au/~john/ |
\_,--\_/ | SCITEC LIMITED Phone +61 2 9428 9563 Fax +61 2 9428 9933 |
v | "By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends." |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:26:42 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:26:22 -0800
From: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
To: dmaddox@scsn.net
Cc: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
References: <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net> <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net>
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In-Reply-To: <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net>; from Donald J. Maddox on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:10:12PM -0500
Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
Organization: Cu Networking
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Donald J. Maddox scribbled this message on Mar 4:
> On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 09:21:37PM -0500, Evan Champion wrote:
> > >This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using
> > >ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100.
> >
> >
> > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and
> > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I
> > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of
> > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a
> > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode...
> >
>
> I had this same problem, and the following fix from John Dyson works
> for me:
[patch deleted]
are you sure that it wasn't to remeove:
sio%d: interrupt-level buffer overflow.
messages?
if this did remove the:
sio%d: silo overflow.
messages, then there is something wierd up with sio... I'll take a look
at the code, but none of my machines have reliably produced this message
that wasn't traced to another problem (my bt946 scsi controler would keep
interrupts disabled longer than two chars to be recieved at 115200,
forcing the trigger level down to 8chars instead of 14chars fixed it for
me)...
--
John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954
Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405
Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD
Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:27:12 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
cc: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:58:44 PST."
<XFMail.980304185844.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:23:52 -0800
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> >
> > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and
> > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed)
> > I
> > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of
> > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a
> > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user
> > mode...
>
> Assume you are doing something like FTP of packages-current.
> You are reading about 16 kilobytes per second, which is just about 1,142
> interrupts per second (assuming a 16 myte FIFO and 14 byte treshold.
Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt
latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650
datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are
doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between
when the interrupt is generated and "too late".
Because of the way the sio driver handles interrupts, you want to look
for code sections bracketed with disable_intr/enable_intr calls to find
possible culprits.
> Every
> 1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second.
There's no guarantee of this; particularly not if I/O clustering, async
or soft updates are enabled. Filesystems are mounted async during an
install.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:33:12 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:33:20 -0500
From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox)
To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>, dmaddox@scsn.net
Cc: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net
Mail-Followup-To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>,
dmaddox@scsn.net, Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
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References: <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net> <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> <19980304192622.24302@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
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In-Reply-To: <19980304192622.24302@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>; from John-Mark Gurney on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:26:22PM -0800
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:26:22PM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote:
> Donald J. Maddox scribbled this message on Mar 4:
> > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 09:21:37PM -0500, Evan Champion wrote:
> > > >This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using
> > > >ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100.
> > >
> > >
> > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and
> > > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I
> > > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of
> > > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a
> > > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode...
> > >
> >
> > I had this same problem, and the following fix from John Dyson works
> > for me:
>
> [patch deleted]
>
> are you sure that it wasn't to remeove:
> sio%d: interrupt-level buffer overflow.
> messages?
Sorry, you are correct... I was getting interrupt-level buffer
overflows, not silo overflows. Mea culpa :-/
>
> if this did remove the:
> sio%d: silo overflow.
> messages, then there is something wierd up with sio... I'll take a look
> at the code, but none of my machines have reliably produced this message
> that wasn't traced to another problem (my bt946 scsi controler would keep
> interrupts disabled longer than two chars to be recieved at 115200,
> forcing the trigger level down to 8chars instead of 14chars fixed it for
> me)...
>
> --
> John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954
> Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405
>
> Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD
> Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:34:34 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>
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On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote:
...
> Uh, the driver works just fine.
Good!
> However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_
> disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware
> fails to deliver them in the first place.
Unless I misunderstand something, the driver should get interrupts
delivered, unless another part of the kernel is in spltty(), or another spl
which masks spltty. There should not be all that many of those, and they
should be considered carefully.
Now, if something in the kernel disables interrupts althogether for any
amount of time, he should get the pointy hat everyone like to talk about so
much, as this will make FreeBSD into a glorified Linux.
> If you have a solution to this really quite challenging problem, I'm
> sure we'd all be delighted to hear about it. Until then, please
> believe me that there is nothing wrong with the driver, per se., which
> "causes" these overflows.
Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a mode
by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain point
of saturation? This will stop the modem from transmitting characters
within one character time period. Any modem which will not do that is very
broken. This i have done suvvessfully on a Z-80, using a Z80-SIO USART ( a
cusin of the 8250 if i remember right).
There are other, ugly hacks to be done to guarantee delivery but they are
not worth it.
>
> Just incidentally, the P6 has relatively poor I/O performance,
> particularly when it comes to talking to ISA peripherals.
Yes, but faster than an 8080A + 8250. Agree?
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:36:48 1998
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To: dmaddox@scsn.net
cc: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:10:12 EST."
<19980304221012.62373@scsn.net>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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>
> Try the modifications noted in the included info. I
> no longer get any kind of sio messages.
>
>
> --
> John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
>
>
>
> Index: sio.c
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v
> retrieving revision 1.194
> diff -r1.194 sio.c
> 117a118
> > /*
> 119a121,123
> > */
> > #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2)
> > #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4)
>
>
> Add this to your system conf:
>
> options "MSIZE=256"
Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change
for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred?
> options "TTYHOG=4096"
This increases tty-internal buffers, but wouldn't be expected to affect
interrupt latency. (There may be some carryover though.)
- Were you seeing "silo overflow" messages?
- Have the above changes affected your actual throughput?
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:41:35 1998
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To: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>
cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:16:45 +1100."
<34FE191D.1D676AC3@scitec.com.au>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> Simon Shapiro wrote:
> > [snip] Every 1KB, you write to disk [snip]
>
> If you use an IDE disk then 10 to 1 that's the problem. Particularly
> if the IDE driver is doing multi-sector transfers. Interrupts must be
> disabled during IDE PIO transfers (or you can risk data corruption)
> and the time taken to transfer, say 16 sectors, is significant. When
> Linux supported Intel Triton busmaster IDE the occurance of FIFO
> overflows disappeared on Triton boards.
For what it's worth, interrupts don't actually appear to be disabled
for PIO IDE transfers. (Feel free to check the source, FWIW.)
I don't believe that interrupts for the serial ports are blocked by the
wdintr() handler; they use "fast" handlers which are immune to blocking
by the normal spl() mechanism.
> The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support
> busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of
> the PC architeture.
This last hits the nail square on the head.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:42:54 1998
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To: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:41:44 +1000
From: Stephen McKay <syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au>
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Simon Shapiro wrote:
>
> How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am
> too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens.
> I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood.
Do you have a Matrox Millennium? I borrowed a Matrox Millennium II for
a while and put it in my Pentium 133 box. Suddenly I got silo overflows
when there was simultaneous incoming serial data and X activity (like
scrolling a 60 line xterm window). When I returned the Millennium and
put my Trio64V+ card back in, all serial problems disappeared. At the time,
I was running the serial port at only 38400, but now run it at 115200 with
no problems.
I didn't do enough investigation to even guess at the cause. I looked in
the XFree86 server code for interrupt disabling but found nothing interesting.
I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could
starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there?
Stephen.
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:45:40 -0500
From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox)
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, dmaddox@scsn.net
Cc: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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Mail-Followup-To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, dmaddox@scsn.net,
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References: <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> <199803050332.TAA23822@dingo.cdrom.com>
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On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:32:25PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
<SNIP>
> >
> > Add this to your system conf:
> >
> > options "MSIZE=256"
>
> Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change
> for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred?
>
> > options "TTYHOG=4096"
>
> This increases tty-internal buffers, but wouldn't be expected to affect
> interrupt latency. (There may be some carryover though.)
>
> - Were you seeing "silo overflow" messages?
> - Have the above changes affected your actual throughput?
Sorry, I didn't read the original message closely enough... I was
actually getting interrupt-level buffer oflows, not silo oflows. This
fix is for a different problem :-/
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:46:25 1998
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Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-Reply-To: <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> from "Donald J. Maddox" at "Mar 4, 98 10:10:12 pm"
To: dmaddox@scsn.net
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:43:37 -0500 (EST)
Cc: evanc@synapse.net, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, mike@smith.net.au,
shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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I don't think that the MSIZE option is really needed. If we can
get approval from BDE, or if he would "correct" the suggestion,
the I'll commit it for him.
Donald J. Maddox said:
>
> I had this same problem, and the following fix from John Dyson works
> for me:
>
> Index: sio.c
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v
> retrieving revision 1.194
> diff -r1.194 sio.c
> 117a118
> > /*
> 119a121,123
> > */
> > #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2)
> > #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4)
>
>
> Add this to your system conf:
>
> options "MSIZE=256"
> options "TTYHOG=4096"
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:47:01 1998
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Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-Reply-To: <199803050332.TAA23822@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Mar 4, 98 07:32:25 pm"
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:44:40 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dmaddox@scsn.net, evanc@synapse.net, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au,
mike@smith.net.au, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Mike Smith said:
>
> Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change
> for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred?
>
The MSIZE isn't needed.
>
> > options "TTYHOG=4096"
>
> This increases tty-internal buffers, but wouldn't be expected to affect
> interrupt latency. (There may be some carryover though.)
>
> - Were you seeing "silo overflow" messages?
> - Have the above changes affected your actual throughput?
>
Note that i also changed the thresholds in the sio.c file.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:49:20 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:48:10 -0800
From: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
References: <XFMail.980304185844.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> <199803050323.TAA23786@dingo.cdrom.com>
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Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
Organization: Cu Networking
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Mike Smith scribbled this message on Mar 4:
> > >
> > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and
> > > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed)
> > > I
> > > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of
> > > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a
> > > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user
> > > mode...
> >
> > Assume you are doing something like FTP of packages-current.
> > You are reading about 16 kilobytes per second, which is just about 1,142
> > interrupts per second (assuming a 16 myte FIFO and 14 byte treshold.
>
> Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt
> latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650
> datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are
> doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between
> when the interrupt is generated and "too late".
actually, the default for the 16550 is set to 14 characters.. and as
there is a 16 character buffer, that means only 2 characters...
you might want to take a look at pr#2239... it has a patch to change
the default trigger level from 14 down to 8... though the patch is
slightly out of date (made to rev 1.154 of sio.c), it should be obvious
what is needed...
> Because of the way the sio driver handles interrupts, you want to look
> for code sections bracketed with disable_intr/enable_intr calls to find
> possible culprits.
that's another good thing to look for... hmm... another modificate to
the spl/disable_intr/enable_intr would be to keep track of the last few
functions that did disable interrupts and then when sio discovers an
overflow, to output those...
> > Every
> > 1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second.
>
> There's no guarantee of this; particularly not if I/O clustering, async
> or soft updates are enabled. Filesystems are mounted async during an
> install.
yep...
--
John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954
Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405
Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD
Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:53:09 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:40:24 PST."
<XFMail.980304194024.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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>
> > However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_
> > disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware
> > fails to deliver them in the first place.
>
> Unless I misunderstand something, the driver should get interrupts
> delivered, unless another part of the kernel is in spltty(), or another spl
> which masks spltty. There should not be all that many of those, and they
> should be considered carefully.
I *did* suggest that you read the code. I meant it.
The sio(4) driver (and a few others) use what are called "fast
interrupt handlers". These are spl-immune, and can only be blocked
with disable_intr(). Delivery of these interrupts may also be delayed
at the hardware level.
> Now, if something in the kernel disables interrupts althogether for any
> amount of time, he should get the pointy hat everyone like to talk about so
> much, as this will make FreeBSD into a glorified Linux.
I did ask if someone would perhaps investigate this.
> > If you have a solution to this really quite challenging problem, I'm
> > sure we'd all be delighted to hear about it. Until then, please
> > believe me that there is nothing wrong with the driver, per se., which
> > "causes" these overflows.
>
> Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a mode
> by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain point
> of saturation?
No, it doesn't, although some of the extended versions do.
Lowering DSR won't help much, because it's an input.
Automatic RTS/CTS flow control is only useful when you are talking to
another UART that implements a comparable scheme. Many serial devices
will only respond to changes in flow control signals at the start of an
output block, ie. there is no guaranteed response to a change in RTS
state.
> This will stop the modem from transmitting characters
> within one character time period. Any modem which will not do that is very
> broken. This i have done suvvessfully on a Z-80, using a Z80-SIO USART ( a
> cusin of the 8250 if i remember right).
The ZSIO is completely unrelated to the 8250. It has more in common
with the 2681/68681 family and the 8530 SCC.
Unfortunately, you cannot expect a peripheral to respond in this
fashion. Automatic handshaking can also significantly reduce throughput
unless very carefully managed.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
cc: dmaddox@scsn.net, Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:32:25 PST."
<199803050332.TAA23822@dingo.cdrom.com>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
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>> Add this to your system conf:
>>
>> options "MSIZE=256"
>
>Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change
>for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred?
You don't want to do that. Without other changes, our networking code
behaves poorly when MSIZE is not 128.
-DG
David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:57:12 1998
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:48:10 PST."
<19980304194810.22210@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> Mike Smith scribbled this message on Mar 4:
> > > >
> > > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and
...
> > Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt
> > latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650
> > datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are
> > doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between
> > when the interrupt is generated and "too late".
>
> actually, the default for the 16550 is set to 14 characters.. and as
> there is a 16 character buffer, that means only 2 characters...
Note that the plaintiff was talking about 16650 parts, and an extended
bitrate. My naive assumption here is that the 16650 just doubles
everything, leading to the same timing issue as with a 16550 at 115200.
> you might want to take a look at pr#2239... it has a patch to change
> the default trigger level from 14 down to 8... though the patch is
> slightly out of date (made to rev 1.154 of sio.c), it should be obvious
> what is needed...
The problem with this reduction (which has been implemented before) is
that it increases the CPU load on systems with large numbers of ports.
The FIFO trigger level tuning issue has seen a lot of water under the
bridge - the driver used to adjust the level downwards in the presence
of overflows, but this was abandoned for reasons best extracted from
the CVS logs.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:00:50 1998
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To: Stephen McKay <syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au>
cc: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:41:44 +1000."
<199803050341.NAA08541@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> Do you have a Matrox Millennium? I borrowed a Matrox Millennium II for
> a while and put it in my Pentium 133 box. Suddenly I got silo overflows
> when there was simultaneous incoming serial data and X activity (like
> scrolling a 60 line xterm window). When I returned the Millennium and
> put my Trio64V+ card back in, all serial problems disappeared. At the time,
> I was running the serial port at only 38400, but now run it at 115200 with
> no problems.
>
> I didn't do enough investigation to even guess at the cause. I looked in
> the XFree86 server code for interrupt disabling but found nothing interesting.
Does the server disable interrupts for extended periods of time?
> I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could
> starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there?
It's quite possible; it would depend on the PCI latency timer settings,
but generally the latency provided for there is only of the order of a
few microseconds. I would be more interested in knowing whether the X
server did interrupt-related things specific to the Matrox driver...
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:01:37 1998
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Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
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On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote:
...
> But without any testing or hard numbers, your claim above is
> meaningless. You haven't given any context, or demonstrated with
> similar machines and loads side-by-side that there has been any
> quantifiable change in system behaviour. Perhaps its your usage
> profile that's changed?
I have to disagre, Mike. It may be hard to reproduce, or practically
impossible to track (lost interrupts are nasty. First the are totally
asynchronous, and second, they are missing... :-) But, here is a test setup
for you that will exhonorate the sio driver;
a. Hook two boxes via null modem.
b. Boot to single use mode.
c. Set the baud rate to 1200
d. Assume /dev/cuaa00 on both sides, with a full null modem
e. Generate a barberpole file on the remote machine (go to
ftp:simon-shapiro.org/crash/tools, and get blob.c)
make blob;install -c -m 755 blob /usr/local/bin; blob > blob.out
f. On the remote machine do ``cat < /dev/cuaa00 > output_file''
g. On the local machine do ``cat blob.out > /dev/cua00''
h. ``diff blob.out output_file'' Any difference means the driver is
broken.
i. bump the baud rate to 115,200 and repeat the domp.
j. Repeat the whole thing but in the other direction.
k. Go to multi-user mode and repeat steps f-j
l. Start loading the system. First with memory traffic;
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=64k is good.
m. Upgrade to disk traffic; Replace /dev/zero with /dev/sd0c or something
like that. If you want to be nasty to your disk subsystem, pick up st.c
from the same place and run it instead of dd.
n. Add network traffic.
If Mike is correct, this test will pass with flying colors. If it doesm it
is time to look elsewhere. I saw quite few spltty's around on things that
are not Teletype devices :-)
> It has been. We know about it. But nobody that cares enough about it
> has taken the time to analyse the problem. I tried to suggest, in my
> response to Simon, how one might go about doing this, in the
> (apparently vain) hope that someone might take me up on it.
You find me an employer that agrees that I work on these things and I give
you my word of honor that I will get this, and any other bug you give me
fixed.
> Shall we say that slagging the 'sio' driver certainly isn't the best way
> to start?
I have been preached to frequently on this list. Now is my turn; Raising
an issue with a piece of code is NOT criticism of the author, nor of the
maintainer, nor of the project's qulity of management. It is simply an
issue. I think I speak for many on this list when I say that we are at awe
at the talent and dedication expressed in this project. It is simply, that
when we see something broken, we ask ``Is it broken or is my brain in
neutral?'' FreeBSD is growing to be an extreamly complex engineering
product. Canvassing it all is impossible, thus old issues re-surface.
That's all.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:05:01 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:04:48 -0800
From: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>, shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
References: <34FE191D.1D676AC3@scitec.com.au> <199803050338.TAA23878@dingo.cdrom.com>
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Mike Smith scribbled this message on Mar 4:
> > The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support
> > busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of
> > the PC architeture.
>
> This last hits the nail square on the head.
then can you tell my bt946 not to cause sio overflows?? :) back when
I used to run my inet connection (via 28.8k modem) on my main machine
using SCSI only, I still got the overflow errors...
I finally switched to using a second machine as a router... which
really is the only way to go, unless you use a smart serial card like
a digiboard which larger buffers... (and now that natd is part of
FreeBSD there is no excuse... it's a great use for an old 486 or 386
that you have sitting around)...
--
John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954
Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405
Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD
Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:11:01 1998
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To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:04:48 PST."
<19980304200448.26184@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
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> Mike Smith scribbled this message on Mar 4:
> > > The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support
> > > busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of
> > > the PC architeture.
> >
> > This last hits the nail square on the head.
>
> then can you tell my bt946 not to cause sio overflows?? :)
I wish. 8( You could try hauling the PCI latency timer right down to
see whether that affects things.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:16:09 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:10:45 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199803050410.PAA32045@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, john.saunders@scitec.com.au,
shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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>If you use an IDE disk then 10 to 1 that's the problem. Particularly
Perhaps if you use the busmastering DMA version. All busmastering
DMA devices potentially steal too many cycles for PIO drivers to
operate properly.
>if the IDE driver is doing multi-sector transfers. Interrupts must be
>disabled during IDE PIO transfers (or you can risk data corruption)
Interrupts aren't disabled during IDE PIO transfers under FreeBSD.
>and the time taken to transfer, say 16 sectors, is significant. When
>Linux supported Intel Triton busmaster IDE the occurance of FIFO
>overflows disappeared on Triton boards.
The reverse is the case under FreeBSD. PIO IDE can only delay sio
interrupt handling by one bus cycle. DMA can delay not only interrupt
handling (which often requires a bus access to access the ICU), but all
PIO bus accesses. sio needs to do about 50 bus accesses per port (normal
worst case) to handle a 16550 interrupt. If DMA delays bus accesses
by as little as 4 usec each, then interrupt latency for a second port
will increase from about 60 usec to about 260 usec - too much to work
at 115200 bps with the default fifo trigger level.
>The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support
>busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of
>the PC architeture.
The IRQ priorities aren't a significant problem under FreeBSD or Linux.
Both systems essentially ignore them. FreeBSD rotates the priorities
to give IRQ3 highest priority, but this only makes a tiny difference.
IRQ3 just gets noticed first if there are concurrent interrupts, and
its handler will be preempted within 5 usec if one of the concurrent
interrupt has a higher (BSD) priority.
Bruce
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:16:29 1998
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cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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>
> > Shall we say that slagging the 'sio' driver certainly isn't the best way
> > to start?
>
> I have been preached to frequently on this list. Now is my turn; Raising
> an issue with a piece of code is NOT criticism of the author, nor of the
> maintainer, nor of the project's qulity of management. It is simply an
Uh, the original issue was "the sio driver emits this annoying
message that it didn't used to which means it must have been broken".
I'm simply trying to point out that a) the issue isn't that simple and
b) plenty of people are aware of it. If/when someone finds something
that's fixable and causes these symptoms, plenty of us would just love
to stomp all over the problem.
If I've been too rough in doing that, my apologies.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:17:57 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
CC: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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Hear hear.
I think that Mike is too defensive sometimes.
No-one is attacking you Mike, we are just highlighting a problem to
get some discussion going on the issue.
I am very happy to see that this thread has created meaningfull
discussion with several possible solutions.
That's a whole lot better than the thread that this one has grown from!
Simon Shapiro wrote:
> I have been preached to frequently on this list. Now is my turn; Raising
> an issue with a piece of code is NOT criticism of the author, nor of the
> maintainer, nor of the project's qulity of management. It is simply an
> issue. I think I speak for many on this list when I say that we are at awe
> at the talent and dedication expressed in this project. It is simply, that
> when we see something broken, we ask ``Is it broken or is my brain in
> neutral?'' FreeBSD is growing to be an extreamly complex engineering
> product. Canvassing it all is impossible, thus old issues re-surface.
> That's all.
>
> ----------
>
> Sincerely Yours,
>
> Simon Shapiro
> Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
--
Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249
Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537
Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Salisbury
PO Box 1500 Salisbury South Australia 5108
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:21:11 1998
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To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 15:10:45 +1100."
<199803050410.PAA32045@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
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> >The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support
> >busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of
> >the PC architeture.
>
> The IRQ priorities aren't a significant problem under FreeBSD or Linux.
> Both systems essentially ignore them.
Whoops, that's right; we effectively ack the interrupt when we take it,
not when we finish. Scratch my previous comment inre this.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:23:36 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:25:31 -0500 (EST)
From: "Christopher R. Bowman" <crb@ChrisBowman.com>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:06:51 -0500 (EST), Chuck Robey
><chuckr@glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>
>>If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks,
>>why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because
>>you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so?
>>
>
>It started as a hobby but now my interest is primarily for business
>use.
>
>If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow
>into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do.
>And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and
>call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like.
>
>I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising
>developers will step in to fill that demand.
I don't mean to be rude here, and I don't want to start a flame fest,
but I think some one has already done what you suggest and they
call themselves BSDI.
---------
Christopher R. Bowman
crb@ChrisBowman.com
<A HREF="http://www.ChrisBowman.com">My home page</A>
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:24:43 1998
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Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: (Donald J. Maddox) <dmaddox@scsn.net>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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On 05-Mar-98 Donald J. Maddox wrote:
...
> Try the modifications noted in the included info. I
> no longer get any kind of sio messages.
This is called ``the rubberband solution'' It may actually work :-)
> Index: sio.c
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v
> retrieving revision 1.194
> diff -r1.194 sio.c
> 117a118
>> /*
> 119a121,123
>> */
>> #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2)
>> #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4)
I have in the file:
#define LOTS_OF_EVENTS 64 /* helps separate urgent events from in
#define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG - 2 * RS_IBUFSIZE)
#define RS_IBUFSIZE 256
Which way should I go about it?
>
>
> Add this to your system conf:
>
> options "MSIZE=256"
> options "TTYHOG=4096"
I did. Thanx!
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:30:43 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:29:05 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199803050429.PAA00299@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: evanc@synapse.net, shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, mike@smith.net.au
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>Assume you are doing something like FTP of packages-current.
>You are reading about 16 kilobytes per second, which is just about 1,142
>interrupts per second (assuming a 16 myte FIFO and 14 byte treshold. Every
>1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second. Add
>10% ACK on the FTP connection, HZ heartbeat, and you have 1,400 interrupts
>per second. Say 2,000 interrupts/Sec. A P6-200 will be safe in this
>regard. In a RT O/S this will give us about 500us per interrupt. What do
>you think?
I think 2000 interrupts/second is not many. A 486/33 can handle about
50000 sio interrupts/second, as it needs to do to handle just 2 16450
UARTs at 115200 bps bidirectional saturated. Running such a setup plus
some other sources of interrupts was my standard test until I junked
the 486/33 recently. OTOH, a P6/200 can't handle many more sio
interrupts/second, since sio interrupt handling consists mainly of
PIO, especially on fast systems, especially for buffered UARTs. The
486/33 was replaced by a K6/233 which has significantly (50%) slower
ISA PIO than the 486/33.
Bruce
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:34:14 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
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On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote:
...
> Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt
> latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650
> datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are
> doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between
> when the interrupt is generated and "too late".
That means that the built-in fifo should go down from 14 to 12 bytes, or
probably 10. Does the IOCTL that changes baud rate dividers do that too?
> Because of the way the sio driver handles interrupts, you want to look
> for code sections bracketed with disable_intr/enable_intr calls to find
> possible culprits.
If the driver disables interrupts then loses them, is this like shooting
yourself in the foot and complain about the pain? :-)
>> Every
>> 1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second.
>
> There's no guarantee of this; particularly not if I/O clustering, async
> or soft updates are enabled. Filesystems are mounted async during an
> install.
Of course. The purpuse of this napkin computation was to see, crudely, if
we have congestion, or not. I think we can easily see that we do, and some
overrun control is necessary. I simply do not know enough of the internals
of FreeBSD to speculate any further. It has to be a ssoluble problem. We
have more MIPS, more bandwidth and more control than a modem has. No?
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:38:27 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
References: <199803050357.TAA24001@dingo.cdrom.com>
In-Reply-To: <199803050357.TAA24001@dingo.cdrom.com>
from Mike Smith at "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:57:39 -0800"
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:37:03 +1000
From: Stephen McKay <syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au>
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On Wednesday, 4th March 1998, Mike Smith wrote:
>> I didn't do enough investigation to even guess at the cause. I looked in
>> the XFree86 server code for interrupt disabling but found nothing
>> interesting.
>
>Does the server disable interrupts for extended periods of time?
If it does, I couldn't find where.
>> I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could
>> starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there?
>
>It's quite possible; it would depend on the PCI latency timer settings,
>but generally the latency provided for there is only of the order of a
>few microseconds.
So, how would I print these latency timer settings from FreeBSD? Would I
just get a meaningless jumble of numbers anyway? ;-)
>I would be more interested in knowing whether the X
>server did interrupt-related things specific to the Matrox driver...
This was my first thought. I couldn't find any place that it disabled
interrupts. There were routines to fiddle processor interrupts but I
could find no code that called them.
Stephen.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:39:57 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Stephen McKay <syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 05-Mar-98 Stephen McKay wrote:
> Simon Shapiro wrote:
>>
>> How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am
>> too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens.
>> I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood.
>
> Do you have a Matrox Millennium? I borrowed a Matrox Millennium II for
> a while and put it in my Pentium 133 box. Suddenly I got silo overflows
> when there was simultaneous incoming serial data and X activity (like
> scrolling a 60 line xterm window). When I returned the Millennium and
> put my Trio64V+ card back in, all serial problems disappeared. At the
> time,
> I was running the serial port at only 38400, but now run it at 115200
> with
> no problems.
>
> I didn't do enough investigation to even guess at the cause. I looked in
> the XFree86 server code for interrupt disabling but found nothing
> interesting.
>
> I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could
> starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there?
Now this is really interesting. There is a Matrox Millenium in the machine
but it does no X at the moment. A Matrox will not be happy with a COM4
port. They stomp on each other. So does an ATI Mach64.
Yes, a nasty video card will do ugly things to the PCI bus.
BTW, most these S3 cards will not work across a PCI-PCi bridge. Never
understood why...
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:44:22 1998
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:37:03 +1000."
<199803050437.OAA09160@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au>
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> >> I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could
> >> starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there?
> >
> >It's quite possible; it would depend on the PCI latency timer settings,
> >but generally the latency provided for there is only of the order of a
> >few microseconds.
>
> So, how would I print these latency timer settings from FreeBSD? Would I
> just get a meaningless jumble of numbers anyway? ;-)
You should be able to adjust the setting in the system BIOS setup.
This is only likely to be an issue if the card does busmaster transfers
to/from main memory.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:49:13 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>
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On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote:
...
> The sio(4) driver (and a few others) use what are called "fast
> interrupt handlers". These are spl-immune, and can only be blocked
> with disable_intr(). Delivery of these interrupts may also be delayed
> at the hardware level.
I will not comment on this at all...
...
>> Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a
>> mode
>> by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain
>> point
>> of saturation?
>
> No, it doesn't, although some of the extended versions do.
Brain-Dead. Then all bets are off. In the current software + hardware
structure, interrupts will be lost.
> Lowering DSR won't help much, because it's an input.
Picky, picky, I mean DTR, and you know it :-)
> Automatic RTS/CTS flow control is only useful when you are talking to
> another UART that implements a comparable scheme. Many serial devices
> will only respond to changes in flow control signals at the start of an
> output block, ie. there is no guaranteed response to a change in RTS
> state.
Modems must and do comply with RTS/CTS. All the ISPs out there that have a
flow control with Sportster, raise your hand... A modem that does not is
broken. Many modems bastardized this support to acomodate operating
systemsd that did too. But there is normally a mode where it will work.
...
> The ZSIO is completely unrelated to the 8250. It has more in common
> with the 2681/68681 family and the 8530 SCC.
sorry. Last I touched one of these has been longerthan I can hold
information.
> Unfortunately, you cannot expect a peripheral to respond in this
> fashion. Automatic handshaking can also significantly reduce throughput
> unless very carefully managed.
Again, you are convincing me why something that works cannot (or is hard to
make) work. I cannot agree to that, as I see modems, telex machines from
yore, computers, PCs, all working fine without dropping a single byte due
to internal overflow. Since the system is useful to me, in this state, I
have no further complaints.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:50:41 1998
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:40:42 PST."
<XFMail.980304204042.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:44:12 -0800
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> > Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt
> > latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650
> > datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are
> > doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between
> > when the interrupt is generated and "too late".
>
> That means that the built-in fifo should go down from 14 to 12 bytes, or
> probably 10. Does the IOCTL that changes baud rate dividers do that too?
No. Actually, I went looking (in vain *^%*&^%*) for the code that
plays with the sio FIFOs. I think I'm going blind. 8(
> > Because of the way the sio driver handles interrupts, you want to look
> > for code sections bracketed with disable_intr/enable_intr calls to find
> > possible culprits.
>
> If the driver disables interrupts then loses them, is this like shooting
> yourself in the foot and complain about the pain? :-)
In this case, it's someone else shooting the driver in the foot. As
Bruce pointed out, busmaster DMA is a concern.
> overrun control is necessary. I simply do not know enough of the internals
> of FreeBSD to speculate any further. It has to be a ssoluble problem. We
> have more MIPS, more bandwidth and more control than a modem has. No?
Yes, yes, no and also we have less determinism.
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:19:06 1998
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:18:38 +1100
From: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>
Organization: SCITEC LIMITED
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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Simon Shapiro wrote:
> >> Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a mode
> >> by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain point
> >> of saturation?
> >
> > No, it doesn't, although some of the extended versions do.
>
> Brain-Dead. Then all bets are off. In the current software + hardware
> structure, interrupts will be lost.
The CD1440 (I think that's the part number) chip in the smart cards
like Stallion and Cyclades do do automatic CTS/RTS handshaking
with the modem. They also have very large FIFOs. Which means you can
run 256 (yes two fifty six) ports at 57600 in a 486 DX4/100 ;-)
For those that are interested, 4 Stallion 64 port ISA cards.
Cheers.
-- +------------------------------------------------------------+
. | John Saunders mailto:John.Saunders@scitec.com.au (Work) |
,--_|\ | mailto:john@nlc.net.au (Home) |
/ Oz \ | http://www.nlc.net.au/~john/ |
\_,--\_/ | SCITEC LIMITED Phone +61 2 9428 9563 Fax +61 2 9428 9933 |
v | "By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends." |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:20:43 1998
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980304194024.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
References: <199803050248.SAA23631@dingo.cdrom.com>
<XFMail.980304194024.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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> > However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_
> > disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware
> > fails to deliver them in the first place.
>
> Unless I misunderstand something, the driver should get interrupts
> delivered, unless another part of the kernel is in spltty(), or another spl
> which masks spltty. There should not be all that many of those, and they
> should be considered carefully.
I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen. Why, I
don't know, but it's definitely X related. If I don't use X and the
machine gets the same traffic, I get the messages. If I switch from
XFree8 to XIG, the messages go away.
What is causing the interrupts to go away, I don't know, but it might be
syscons or something. I'm not switching vty's, and neither am I hitting
the caps-lock or causing the LED's to switch.
But, it occurs none-the-less.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:24:20 1998
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Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: Evan Champion <evanc@synapse.net>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>,
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On 05-Mar-98 John Saunders wrote:
> Simon Shapiro wrote:
>> >> Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a
>> >> mode
>> >> by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain
>> >> point
>> >> of saturation?
>> >
>> > No, it doesn't, although some of the extended versions do.
>>
>> Brain-Dead. Then all bets are off. In the current software + hardware
>> structure, interrupts will be lost.
>
> The CD1440 (I think that's the part number) chip in the smart cards
> like Stallion and Cyclades do do automatic CTS/RTS handshaking
> with the modem. They also have very large FIFOs. Which means you can
> run 256 (yes two fifty six) ports at 57600 in a 486 DX4/100 ;-)
> For those that are interested, 4 Stallion 64 port ISA cards.
I was thinkingthe same thing. I have a Computone here that just sits on
the floor collecting lint from the lanudry dryer.
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:30:37 1998
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980304213426.shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
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> > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen.
...
>
> I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip.
But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused
them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only
difference was the Xserver.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:34:31 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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On 05-Mar-98 Nate Williams wrote:
>> > However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_
>> > disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware
>> > fails to deliver them in the first place.
>>
>> Unless I misunderstand something, the driver should get interrupts
>> delivered, unless another part of the kernel is in spltty(), or another
>> spl
>> which masks spltty. There should not be all that many of those, and
>> they
>> should be considered carefully.
>
> I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen. Why, I
> don't know, but it's definitely X related. If I don't use X and the
> machine gets the same traffic, I get the messages. If I switch from
> XFree8 to XIG, the messages go away.
>
> What is causing the interrupts to go away, I don't know, but it might be
> syscons or something. I'm not switching vty's, and neither am I hitting
> the caps-lock or causing the LED's to switch.
>
> But, it occurs none-the-less.
I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip. The Mach64 I finally
pulled out was much worse. It would die/kill serial ports. I think the
problem is there and in the FAST_INTR stuff. Now I am going to get myself
in trouble all over again :-)
Simon
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:52:04 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:46:35 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199803050546.QAA04052@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: dmaddox@scsn.net, mike@smith.net.au
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, evanc@synapse.net, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au,
shimon@simon-shapiro.org
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>> Index: sio.c
>> ===================================================================
>> RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v
>> retrieving revision 1.194
>> diff -r1.194 sio.c
>> 117a118
>> > /*
>> 119a121,123
>> > */
>> > #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2)
>> > #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4)
This is internally inconsistent (high water is twice as high as the
container), and breaks RTS flow control unless you make corresponding
changes in tty.c.
>> Add this to your system conf:
>>
>> options "MSIZE=256"
>
>Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change
>for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred?
It's not relevant to serial i/o, anyway.
>> options "TTYHOG=4096"
>
>This increases tty-internal buffers, but wouldn't be expected to affect
>interrupt latency. (There may be some carryover though.)
>
> - Were you seeing "silo overflow" messages?
> - Have the above changes affected your actual throughput?
Apparently it was "interrupt-level buffer overflow".
Changes like the above are certainly required to support speeds above
115200 bps properly, since the driver doesn't support these speeds and
various buffers are sized accordingly. First, you have to increase the
interrupt-level buffer size. Then you have to increase the tty buffer
size so that the tty buffer can hold 2 interrupt-level buffers worth of
data without its watermarks going below the container. If you don't
increase the interrupt-level buffer size, then bad things start
happening at speeds below 23040 cps:
1) if RTS flow control is not enabled, then interrupt-level buffer overflows
are possible at speeds near 23040 bps.
2) if working RTS flow control is enabled (and works), then the throughput
will be reduced by flow control to (RS_IHIGHWATER * hz) cps (default
19200 cps).
3) parts of the above only apply to the termios line discipline. If you
use kernel ppp, then 1) and 2) apply but the tty buffer size and
watermarks don't appluy.
Bruce
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:52:59 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:50:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Marc Slemko <marcs@znep.com>
Reply-To: Marc Slemko <marcs@znep.com>
To: nik@iii.co.uk
cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: DEVFS/SLICE and SOFT UPDATE patches.
In-Reply-To: <19980225102152.50924@iii.co.uk>
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:52:23AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > Use http://www.freebsd.org/~julian/ if you are using a brain-damaged
> > browser. For some reason, the trailing "/" is important to the WWW
> > server on FreeeBSD.org...
> >
> > This is a job for... Variant Symbolic Links! <Dut Dut Da!>
>
> Uh, no it isn't. It's a job for people to start writing URLs properly.
>
> If you're referring to a directory (as the URL above is) then you must
> include the trailing slash. Otherwise, the webserver thinks you're trying
> to retrieve a file of that name instead.
>
> When the web server realises that the file is not there, it will either
>
> a) Return the appropriate "File not found" code to the browser
>
> or
>
> b) Speculatively put a '/' on the end and try again.
>
> I don't think any web servers currently do (b), but I wouldn't stake my
> life on it.
>
> When a server responds with (a) the browser may or may not speculatively
> put a '/' on the end and resubmit the request. Most browsers do indeed do
> this. Some obviously don't, and I presume these are the 'brain damaged ones'
> referred to above.
Erm... no.
If the request doesn't have a trailing '/', then it is asking for a file
in the directory above the desired directory. A web server is free to
give them the correct answer that it doesn't exist.
However, nearly all web servers (including Apache) will decide to be nice
to the user and send a redirect to the client refering them to the URL
with the trailing '/'.
The client does not, should not, and must not dumbly try adding trailing
'/'s.
The normal cause for the case where a URL without a trailing '/' breaks
but one with it works is because the server is configured incorrectly so
what it thinks of as its server name and reality are different, so the
client can't connect to the server name sent in the redirection. This
does not depend on the client in any way, shape, or form, unless they are
so dumb they both can't handle redirects automatically and don't properly
display the message body when they can't handle them.
"Variant Symbolic Links" are irrelevant and can not fix the problem for
the same reason that the server can't just send the document instead of
sending a redirect: then the client's concept of a relative URL would be
based in the wrong directory. There is no need for a fix for anything
because nothing is broken.
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:16:02 1998
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From: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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>> > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen.
>...
>>
>> I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip.
>
>But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused
>them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only
>difference was the Xserver.
I have two boxes running Xig: One is a P5-133, the other is a PII-300. I
just rummaged through the logs back unto creation, and neither show the
dreaded sio overflow. (I complained about this a couple of years back.
Somebody accused me of pushing my serial port too hard or something. My
serial mouse was triggering the overflows. :-)
Brian
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:16:12 1998
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From: John Hay <jhay@mikom.csir.co.za>
Message-Id: <199803050615.IAA00864@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za>
Subject: current "make release" failure
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:15:56 +0200 (SAT)
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Hi,
My daily -current "make release" failed this morning with the following
during the GENERIC kernel build phase:
-----
cc -c -O -Wreturn-type -Wcomment -Wredundant-decls -Wimplicit -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wuninitialized -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../.. -I../../../include -DKERNEL -include opt_global.h ../../pci/if_tx.c
../../pci/if_tx.c: In function `epic_set_media_speed':
../../pci/if_tx.c:1049: `ITM_GMASK' undeclared (first use this function)
../../pci/if_tx.c:1049: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
../../pci/if_tx.c:1049: for each function it appears in.)
machine/cpufunc.h:283: warning: inlining failed in call to `outl'
../../pci/if_tx.c:1049: warning: called from here
*** Error code 1
Stop.
-----
Should the ITM_GMASK be IFM_GMASK?
John
--
John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:38:43 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:27:31 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199803050627.RAA05933@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: dmaddox@scsn.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, evanc@synapse.net, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au,
mike@smith.net.au, shimon@simon-shapiro.org
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>I don't think that the MSIZE option is really needed. If we can
>get approval from BDE, or if he would "correct" the suggestion,
>the I'll commit it for him.
The problem with increasing TTYHOG is that it would waste up to about
2 * (NEW_TTYHOG - OLD_TTYHOG) bytes for (active) ttys that don't need
it, in particular for ptys. Systems with a huge number of ptys are
more likely to have wired almost all kernel memory already.
>> Index: sio.c
>> ===================================================================
>> RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v
>> retrieving revision 1.194
>> diff -r1.194 sio.c
>> 117a118
>> > /*
>> 119a121,123
>> > */
>> > #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2)
>> > #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4)
In previous mail, I confused RB_I_HIGH_WATER with RS_IHIGHWATER and said
that it was wrong. It is OK, but there is another copy of it in tty.c
(named I_HIGH_WATER) to change.
My version sets all the buffer sizes and watermarks dynamically. I haven't
decided the right policy. I currently allocate buffers large enough to
hold one second's worth of i/o (e.g., 46K for 4 * 115200 bps). This is
wasteful, especially for output. When I last looked at it a few months
ago, I got sidetracked looking at anomalous output for large output
buffers... It didn't seem to be urgent to finish it :-).
Bruce
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:43:19 1998
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From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>
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Subject: PAM and friends
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Hi!
Is there any work behind the scenes on PAM-ification? I am about to edit
the patches I prepared some time ago to include support for Security
Dynamics token cards, and I thought I ask before I do it...
This would be best done with PAM-like solution, and if it were available
(even in alpha stage) I'd also consider adding a Radius module...
Andrzej Bialecki
---------------------+---------------------------------------------------------
abial@warman.org.pl | if(halt_per_mth > 0) { fetch("http://www.freebsd.org") }
Research & Academic | "Be open-minded, but don't let your brains to fall out."
Network in Poland | All of the above (and more) is just my personal opinion.
---------------------+---------------------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:52:47 1998
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From: Chris Brunner <cjb@efn.org>
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Subject: Weird CPU clock in dmesg
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Current,
I recently noticed something weird in my dmesg:
CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU)
Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12
Features=0x1bf<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8>
Now, I *know* I don't have a 0Mhz CPU, so something is definatly not
working here. I wasn't sure if this was a known problem or what, but I
thought I'd mention it.
I'm running -CURRENT as of 3/2/98 on a i200 (no mmx) chip.
Thanks!
- Chris Brunner -
- cjb@efn.org -
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 23:16:18 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:15:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
To: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>
cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PAM and friends
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.95.980305074206.14375A-100000@korin.warman.org.pl>
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Andrzej Bialecki wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Is there any work behind the scenes on PAM-ification? I am about to edit
PAM seems to be a bit of dead duck these days. Too inflexible, and not
secure unless used on the console.
I'm looking at SASL. Seems to be a new and better generic auth
solution.
Tom
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 23:41:20 1998
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 00:38:07 am"
To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:39:38 +0100 (MET)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Søren Schmidt <sos@FreeBSD.ORG>
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In reply to John Kelly who wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:11:25 -0800, Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> >What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers
> >are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and
> >organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been
> >said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have
> >either ignored or simply failed to understand it.
>
> You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small.
NO, we are just thinking :) I for one would probably loose interest
if the project went into a more corporate style, with money being
the item that decides what to do and what not. I get plenty of that
at work thankyou. You should realize that the driving force behind
the project is that we do this FOR FUN, and because it makes us
feel good to work on a free project that can turn out software,
that is as good if not better than the big commercial entities.
If I wanted to do it for the money, I wouldn't be here, I'd spend
all my time consulting, and pile up the bucks :)
But for some of us money isn't the main issue, its the challenge
to do what we do, its the reward of seeing that your ideas/work
is being used worldwide.
That being said, we must realize that most of us are buzy & over-
worked, and only has so much left to put into the project.
The solution to this is that donations might buy some of the
developers time to work on FreeBSD, but still be able to by
pizza, diapers and what else is nessesary to sustain life.
> I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which
> may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which
> can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the
> coders for what they do best.
>
> Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will
> begin to see the light.
That would be turning a volounteer project into a real business.
I think that would be fatal to the project as alot of people would
just run away screaming....
If you want a commercial BSD, go for BSDi....
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team
Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..
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From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 23:42:57 1998
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Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-Reply-To: <199803050338.TAA05622@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Mar 4, 98 07:38:30 pm"
To: dg@root.com
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:06:10 -0500 (EST)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, dmaddox@scsn.net, evanc@synapse.net,
Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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David Greenman said:
> >> Add this to your system conf:
> >>
> >> options "MSIZE=256"
> >
> >Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change
> >for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred?
>
> You don't want to do that. Without other changes, our networking code
> behaves poorly when MSIZE is not 128.
>
I agree, that was a mistake on my part.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 00:10:28 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:08:12 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: cjb@efn.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Weird CPU clock in dmesg
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>I recently noticed something weird in my dmesg:
>CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU)
> Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12
> Features=0x1bf<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8>
Setting of the frequency is broken if apm0 is configured (even if apm0
is disabled or its probe fails). Don't configure apm0 if you don't
use it.
Bruce
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 00:50:20 1998
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:49:49 +0000
From: freebsd@isvara.net
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To: FreeBSD Hackers <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>,
FreeBSD Current <current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ethernet card driver
References: <199803042232.OAA22559@dingo.cdrom.com>
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Mike Smith wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I'm about to write an ethernet card driver (3Com 3C905), utilizing
> > all the features of the card (Bus master DMA transfers, etc).
>
> Sounds good.
>
> > What calls are required to interface to the kernel (I prefer not looking
> > at other code, and writing from scratch) ?
> >
> > The functions {xxinit, xxattach, ...}have quite obvious names for what
> > they should do, but I am unsure *exactly* what should be done were.
>
> The best thing for you to do _is_ to look at other code, for
> real-world, known-functional examples. The fxp driver is an excellent
> place to start from your point of view - it's another PCI busmaster
> ethernet card, with known good performance and excellent reliability.
I can look at other code, but I thought it may be quicker if anyone knew the
information I was after (it would save digging through all the code), and
I like writing code given a few base specificaitions, rather than seeing how
someone elses' (potentally bogus) code.
Any takers?
Dan
_____________________________________
Daniel J Blueman
BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester
Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net
Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 01:27:36 1998
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To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
References: <199803050530.WAA16531@mt.sri.com>
In-Reply-To: <199803050530.WAA16531@mt.sri.com>
from Nate Williams at "05 Mar 1998 15:36:45 +1000"
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On Thursday, 5th March 1998, Nate Williams wrote:
>> > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen.
>>
>> I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip.
>
>But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused
>them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only
>difference was the Xserver.
But do you have an S3 or a Matrox? (I missed the bit where you detailed
your hardware configuration.) If it is a Matrox and there is a special
"go easy on the PCI bus" flag in some deeply buried register, it could
have been missed by the XFree86 people but correctly set by XiG.
And to stick up for S3, I use 801 ISA, 805 VLB and Trio64V+ PCI based
video in various machines and have seen no serial port interference from
any of them. But the borrowed Matrox caused silo overflow problems.
Stephen.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 01:34:18 1998
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To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote:
> If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow
> into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do.
I don't really understand the great furour involved in this
argument.
The number of donations to make any kind of "voting system" at
all meaningful simply does not and will not exist in the
reasonable future!
However, if some people would like to see NFS fixed at any and
all cost (that it's already getting attention beside the fact),
but are themselves only willing to pay $250 incremental, they
should band together through the lists and news. If a group of
individuals and/or businesses can guarantee sufficient funds to
fully complete & fund such a project, I'm sure Jordan (on behalf
on FreeBSD inc.) will gladly take their money for that express
purpose, and if not Jordan, I'm sure someone else will. But
please, FreeBSD Inc. is not a multi-million dollar operation (nor
will it be within the time-frame it should be planning for) and
offering donators a vote is akin to offering a promise which it
can never keep. That is bad customer-relations, long-term
detrimental, and self-destructive.
That said, it is much easier for my conscience to let me make a
donation when I am guaranteed something in return. Cheap FreeBSD
paraphenalia can be 1) way cool, and 2) cheap advertising to
attract new users. Chuck brandishing his pitchfork out of the
heart of my computer over-top of a "Chuckie
Power!"^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HPowered by FreeBSD" embalm
would invoke spectator curiousity in FreeBSD and provide a few
meagre funds for FreeBSD.
[I think, though, anything more expensive than a Chu^H^H^Hpowered
by freebsd sticker should not be offered as a "thankyou" for
donating, but rather as a product which just happens to have an
unusually high mark-up :-].
> And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and
> call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like.
Well, we could always call it FreeGPL ;-) (Eeek!).
--
tIM...HOEk
OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names
hoping that the resultant code will run faster.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 01:44:02 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:38:07 GMT."
<3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:37:29 +0100
Message-ID: <9741.889090649@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net>, John Kelly writes:
>I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which
>may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which
>can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the
>coders for what they do best.
>
>Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will
>begin to see the light.
Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about
$1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck.
And even $1M may be too high for our ability.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 01:58:57 1998
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To: cjb@efn.org
cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Weird CPU clock in dmesg
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:54:58 PST."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980304225108.575B-100000@person.dyn.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:53:17 +0100
Message-ID: <10118.889091597@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <Pine.BSF.3.96.980304225108.575B-100000@person.dyn.ml.org>, Chris Brunner writes:
>Current,
>I recently noticed something weird in my dmesg:
>CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU)
> Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12
> Features=0x1bf<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8>
>Now, I *know* I don't have a 0Mhz CPU, so something is definatly not
>working here. I wasn't sure if this was a known problem or what, but I
>thought I'd mention it.
>I'm running -CURRENT as of 3/2/98 on a i200 (no mmx) chip.
Do you have APM or SMP enabled in your kernel ?
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:01:41 1998
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To: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
cc: cjb@efn.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Weird CPU clock in dmesg
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:08:12 +1100."
<199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:55:27 +0100
Message-ID: <10156.889091727@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au>, Bruce Evans writes:
>>I recently noticed something weird in my dmesg:
>>CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU)
>> Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12
>> Features=0x1bf<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8>
>
>Setting of the frequency is broken if apm0 is configured (even if apm0
>is disabled or its probe fails). Don't configure apm0 if you don't
>use it.
I'm currently looking at handling this better.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:03:58 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 04:31:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Charlie ROOT <root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu>
To: Stephen McKay <syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au>
cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-Reply-To: <199803050927.TAA15964@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au>
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What version of Xfree86 is this, They fixed a TON of S3 bugs in the 3.3.2
release which was out about 2 days ago.
for some strange reason the perms are set wrong on the 3.3.2 dir at
ftp.xfree86.org, so i got them from ftp.kernel.org/pub/mirrors/xfree86
--Dan
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Stephen McKay wrote:
> On Thursday, 5th March 1998, Nate Williams wrote:
>
> >> > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen.
> >>
> >> I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip.
> >
> >But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused
> >them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only
> >difference was the Xserver.
>
> But do you have an S3 or a Matrox? (I missed the bit where you detailed
> your hardware configuration.) If it is a Matrox and there is a special
> "go easy on the PCI bus" flag in some deeply buried register, it could
> have been missed by the XFree86 people but correctly set by XiG.
>
> And to stick up for S3, I use 801 ISA, 805 VLB and Trio64V+ PCI based
> video in various machines and have seen no serial port interference from
> any of them. But the borrowed Matrox caused silo overflow problems.
>
> Stephen.
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:11:23 1998
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:37:29 +0100."
<9741.889090649@critter.freebsd.dk>
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:09:05 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about
> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck.
> And even $1M may be too high for our ability.
At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily spend
a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want
to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for
a salaried position --- I am not .
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:14:05 1998
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:09:05 PST."
<199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:07:31 +0100
Message-ID: <10323.889092451@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes:
>> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about
>> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck.
>> And even $1M may be too high for our ability.
>
>At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily spend
>a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want
>to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for
>a salaried position --- I am not .
I think people would happily do it for $80.000 if they could avoid offices.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:17:29 1998
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <10323.889092451@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Mar 5, 98 11:07:31 am"
To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:16:21 +0100 (MET)
Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, jak@cetlink.net, mike@smith.net.au,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Søren Schmidt <sos@FreeBSD.ORG>
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In reply to Poul-Henning Kamp who wrote:
> In message <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes:
> >> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about
> >> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck.
> >> And even $1M may be too high for our ability.
> >
> >At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily spend
> >a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want
> >to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for
> >a salaried position --- I am not .
>
> I think people would happily do it for $80.000 if they could avoid offices.
Yup. Getting rid of as much corporate feeling as possible will help :)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team
Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:34:11 1998
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:07:31 +0100."
<10323.889092451@critter.freebsd.dk>
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:33:44 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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> In message <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes:
> >> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about
> >> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck.
> >> And even $1M may be too high for our ability.
> >
> >At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily spend
> >a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want
> >to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for
> >a salaried position --- I am not .
>
> I think people would happily do it for $80.000 if they could avoid offices.
Nope, $100, 000 is about right . insurance , equipment , phone calls .
In fact we can probably spend more than $1M/year :
equipment -- computers for testing, engineering, and ports group
communication cost including phone system or calls.
test group
porting group
engineering group
marketing group --- we don't want to go around doing this telethon thingy
every year.
sales --- well the sky is the limit on this one.
What building/offices , telecommute Dude!!
We can probably use all the money plus more of what people can throw at
FreeBSD.org.
To the group:
While we are having this nice chat, have you thought of sending
your small donation ? I did 8)
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:37:29 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:37:15 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: xlock freezes last two weeks
References: <19980303224835.36978@follo.net>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:48:35PM +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> I've had 3 or 4 freezes while the computer is in xlock these last two weeks;
> never happened before. All of them have been while the screensaver was that
> large circle-like thing (lots of line forming a complex circular pattern)
> with cycling. I've also had two crashes while doing large compiles.
>
> FreeBSD has been completely locked; not even answering pings.
Forget this. It turned out my CPU-fan had burned out, so this was due
to CPU-overheating, not FreeBSD bugs.
My apologies.
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:38:56 1998
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:33:44 PST."
<199803051033.CAA16565@rah.star-gate.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:32:11 +0100
Message-ID: <10463.889093931@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <199803051033.CAA16565@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes:
>> In message <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes:
>> >> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about
>> >> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buc
>k.
>> >> And even $1M may be too high for our ability.
>> >
>> >At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily sp
>end
>> >a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want
>> >to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for
>> >a salaried position --- I am not .
>>
>> I think people would happily do it for $80.000 if they could avoid offices.
>
>Nope, $100, 000 is about right . insurance , equipment , phone calls .
>In fact we can probably spend more than $1M/year :
>
>equipment -- computers for testing, engineering, and ports group
>communication cost including phone system or calls.
>test group
>porting group
>engineering group
>marketing group --- we don't want to go around doing this telethon thingy
> every year.
>sales --- well the sky is the limit on this one.
Do that and you'll find the bandwagon has plenty of space all of sudden.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
"Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:54:40 1998
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:32:11 +0100."
<10463.889093931@critter.freebsd.dk>
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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> Do that and you'll find the bandwagon has plenty of space all of sudden.
I can see a long explanation detailing why you are not a masochist.
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:55:22 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:55:13 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <6845.889044751@critter.freebsd.dk> <3501ea66.42205029@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 12:02:37AM +0000, John Kelly wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:52:31 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp
> <phk@critter.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
> >>do we really want large amounts of corporate money?
>
> >No, I don't think we do, but it would be really nice if we could get
> >a handful of the best hackers we have liberated from the utter waste
> >of time which occupies too much of their lives.
>
> Whether the money is small or large, I don't see why anyone should be
> unwilling to work at the direction of those funding the effort. They
> do it at their current employment, why not for the paying donors of
> FreeBSD?
My personal case: I want more input than I'd get working only on
FreeBSD proper. I'm not certain I'd do as good work on FreeBSD if I
had to work only on that 'forever'. But I still think being able to
buy 6 months of people's time would be a Good Thing.
Eivind.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:59:15 1998
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Funding discussion - redirect please!
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:58:23 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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I've been trying to get it into -chat where it belongs but people just
aren't cooperating. Please, folks, take the funding discussions OUT
OF -CURRENT NOW PLEASE! Thank you! Sorry to shout, but nothing else
seems to work around here right now. :-)
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 05:38:15 1998
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Message-Id: <199803051334.OAA22226@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 00:38:07 am"
To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:34:13 +0100 (CET)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
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According to John Kelly:
> I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which
> may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which
> can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the
> coders for what they do best.
>
> Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will
> begin to see the light.
Here's a few tips:
Jordan doesn't want more work.
Lots of people work on FreeBSD because they don't get paid. THey have no
boss that is breathing down their neck, or making them work on something
they don't want to.
FreeBSD is not a democracy. It's a kingdom with Jordan at the throne, and
a group of nobleties around him. They make the decissions on what
happens to the FreeBSD project and not. The thing happen to be that
there guys are mostly a very nice group of people who like people to
come and "live in their country". They tend to therefor listen to
the peasants, and they encourage attempts to improve the "kingdom".
No one of forced to stay, but people move in from everywhere because
they think it's a nice place. The powers that be are trusted and
supported, and tend to make very sane decissions. That's why I stay.
Your system has clearly been voted down, and it will not happen. Just
face it and move on. Please DO send you money, but don't expect them
to end up where YOU want them. Expect them to end up where ther are
most needed, for the FreeBSD in general.
So this is what you do: Start an organisation.
You make a nice webpage, and start a mailinglist for "members only".
You convince our beloved webmaster to add a link to your site from the
main FreeBSD webpage to attract more corporations to your page.
You charge something like $500 (or voluntarily more)/year for membership.
Members get a vote for thier $500, and get so be on the mailinglist.
For every time they double the money they give to the origanisation per
year, they get another vote.
You collect all the money, you handle the administration of that and the
voting.
Depending on the amount of money you raise, the top voted for projects
are funded. This is done by simply hiring one or more well known
FreeBSD hackers as consultants and making them carry out the coding,
after the usual discussion on the normal FreeBSD lists, and/or
discussions with the core team, so you don't end up making deadend
developments.
If stuff are rejected as is, discuss a way to get as much as possible
into the source, and keep the rest available as easy to install extra
patches that people that need them can download and use.
As projects are done, or partly done they are submitted the normal route
and very likely included in the FreeBSD main source.
Maybe you donate some of the funds with no strings attached to
FreeBSD, Inc.
Provide whatever else in extra-value that your member corporations wants.
And there... Your dream come true. And I'm sure you'd even be encouraged
by everyone using FreeBSD. If you pull this off, nothing will change from
the current state of things, except that eventually we will see large
chunks of code supplied from your little group of coders incorporated
as the core team sees fit into the main FreeBSD source, just like any
other patch. Hopefully you can attract corporations that today are not
giving anything in form of funds to the FreeBSD project and that could
very well be interested in a rather expensive membership in your
organisation to help further development in one of the products they use.
Maybe it would even help on the "how to name the bill so the management
stays happy"-problem for some.
Now, what are you waiting for?
/Mikael
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 05:48:22 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 14:51:40 +0100
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From: Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>
To: garyj@muc.de
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803042130.WAA13983@peedub.muc.de> (message from Gary
Jennejohn on Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:30:16 +0100)
Subject: Re: gdb dying in -current
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>>>>> Gary Jennejohn writes:
> I forget who had a problem with gdb core dumping under -current (but the
> program he was trying to debug is called pot). Anyway, here's a diff
> that allows me to run gdb on that binary. Check it out and provide
> feedback, whoever you were :-) [beware - cut&paste !!!]
Thanks for the patch. It solves my problem. In the meanwhile I
discovered that recompiling an old static library I was using also
prevented gdb to core dump. What is the problem with .o files compiled
2 years ago?
Jean-Marc
_____________________________________________________________________________
Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex
PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 08:47:46 1998
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <199803051334.OAA22226@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "Mar 5, 98 02:34:13 pm"
To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:46:49 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Mikael Karpberg said:
>
> FreeBSD is not a democracy. It's a kingdom with Jordan at the throne, and
> a group of nobleties around him.
>
Even though almost everyone in -core respects and generally likes JKH,
note that he is NOT a king. If there was alot of disagreement with
JKH, he would hear about it, and most likely pipe-down. JKH handles
alot of the things that the other developers don't want to be bothered
with. Given that, he deserves a huge amount of respect, and the rest
of core mostly realizes that the coherent and generally reasonable positions
that JKH takes have been working out very nicely. We would be alot worse
off without him.
JKH is very good at this common-sense thing and what he does, and believe
me, he also doesn't take an autocratic standpoint on things. Think of
JKH as our spokesperson, and leader because it is a postion that he is
very good at. IMO, because of that, he has more respect than if he was
a "king" or "autocrat".
DG is in that category also. The -core organization is NOT a mutual
admiration society, but simply something that works pretty well. -core
has been pretty much self organizing, almost in an organic fashion.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:07:17 1998
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Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
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> >> > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen.
> >>
> >> I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip.
> >
> >But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused
> >them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only
> >difference was the Xserver.
>
> But do you have an S3 or a Matrox?
Yes. :)
The board at home which gets all the serial/modem traffic is an S3
board. The one at work is a Matrox. :)
> And to stick up for S3, I use 801 ISA, 805 VLB and Trio64V+ PCI based
> video in various machines and have seen no serial port interference from
> any of them. But the borrowed Matrox caused silo overflow problems.
The board that causes silo overflows due to Xfree86 is a 928 (old)
board. But, it also had problems when it had an 801 board in it.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:18:04 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:19:50 GMT
Message-ID: <34ffdd5f.17323509@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <XFMail.980304185844.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> <34FE191D.1D676AC3@scitec.com.au>
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On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:16:45 +1100, John Saunders
<john.saunders@scitec.com.au> wrote:
>If you use an IDE disk then 10 to 1 that's the problem. Particularly
>if the IDE driver is doing multi-sector transfers. Interrupts must be
>disabled during IDE PIO transfers (or you can risk data corruption)
>and the time taken to transfer, say 16 sectors, is significant. When
Sorry, but this is a myth perpetuated by some Linux users.
FreeBSD does not have this problem with IDE disks. I have put Linux
and FreeBSD side by side and tested this. Linux fails the test, while
FreeBSD never misses a serial byte, even under heavy loading of the
disk.
The problem is related to the 650 UART support in sio.c. The 550
support works fine.
>The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support
>busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of
>the PC architeture.
Nope, not a problem at all for FreeBSD. The IDE flaw is a Linux
problem.
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To: Charlie ROOT <root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu>
Cc: Stephen McKay <syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au>, Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>,
freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980305043036.191A-100000@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu>
References: <199803050927.TAA15964@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au>
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980305043036.191A-100000@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu>
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> What version of Xfree86 is this, They fixed a TON of S3 bugs in the 3.3.2
> release which was out about 2 days ago.
Obviously not this one, since it's been running since before time
began. (This box was the *original* FreeBSD build box before FreeBSD
existed.)
Nate
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: John Saunders <john.saunders@scitec.com.au>
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:34:12 GMT
Message-ID: <3500e131.18301614@mail.cetlink.net>
References: <XFMail.980304205551.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> <34FE35AE.181C67A7@scitec.com.au>
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On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:18:38 +1100, John Saunders
<john.saunders@scitec.com.au> wrote:
>The CD1440 (I think that's the part number) chip in the smart cards
>like Stallion and Cyclades do do automatic CTS/RTS handshaking
>with the modem. They also have very large FIFOs. Which means you can
>run 256 (yes two fifty six) ports at 57600 in a 486 DX4/100 ;-)
I just bought some DX4/100s to use as terminal servers. :-)
Can you saturate all 256 ports at once? And if you've never seen a
load that high, what's the highest you have seen? And is that machine
running FreeBSD or Linux?
>For those that are interested, 4 Stallion 64 port ISA cards.
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:43:55 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199803051743.MAA01239@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
In-Reply-To: <34ffdd5f.17323509@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 05:19:50 pm"
To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:43:39 -0500 (EST)
Cc: john.saunders@scitec.com.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
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John Kelly said:
>
> The problem is related to the 650 UART support in sio.c. The 550
> support works fine.
>
I have tried to figure out the problems. I have written 16550 code
for the last 10yrs or so, and the 650 seems to be somehow more different
than the datasheets imply :-(.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:50:46 1998
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Cc: cjb@efn.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Weird CPU clock in dmesg
In-Reply-To: <199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
References: <199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
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> >CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU)
> > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12
> > Features=0x1bf<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8>
>
> Setting of the frequency is broken if apm0 is configured (even if apm0
> is disabled or its probe fails). Don't configure apm0 if you don't
> use it.
This didn't use to be the case until recently, since apm has been in
GENERIC for over a year.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 10:12:01 1998
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From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 18:13:13 GMT
Message-ID: <3501e530.19324702@mail.cetlink.net>
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:43:39 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson"
<toor@dyson.iquest.net> wrote:
>John Kelly said:
>>
>> The problem is related to the 650 UART support in sio.c. The 550
>> support works fine.
>>
>I have tried to figure out the problems. I have written 16550 code
>for the last 10yrs or so, and the 650 seems to be somehow more different
>than the datasheets imply :-(.
Several months ago I had a long exchange with Bruce about 650 UARTs
and how to best handle them in sio.c. I wanted to poke around with
the 650 support but I never found the time. Too many priorities to
juggle.
At first I argued that we should turn on the 650 auto RTS, but after
reflecting on what he said I have to agree with him that the 650 auto
RTS has little practical benefit and it should *not* be turned on.
He did say that the 650 auto CTS would be helpful. But after these
several months have passed I don't remember why! I might be able to
dig out those old messages. I think I archived them.
It might also be helpful to set the transmit FIFO trigger level higher
than one to avoid transmit underruns. Setting EFR bit 4 to 1 and FCR
bits 6 and 7 to 00 should select a transmit FIFO trigger level of 8.
If EFR bit 4 is not set to 1, the transmit trigger level defaults to 1
just like a 550.
But otherwise, the 650 code should be no different from the 550 code
(aside from the larger FIFO sizes).
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 12:30:31 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199803052030.NAA07313@usr06.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Donations.
To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:30:07 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, jak@cetlink.net, mike@smith.net.au,
current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <10463.889093931@critter.freebsd.dk> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Mar 5, 98 11:32:11 am
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> >Nope, $100, 000 is about right . insurance , equipment , phone calls .
> >In fact we can probably spend more than $1M/year :
> >
> >equipment -- computers for testing, engineering, and ports group
> >communication cost including phone system or calls.
> >test group
> >porting group
> >engineering group
> >marketing group --- we don't want to go around doing this telethon thingy
> > every year.
> >sales --- well the sky is the limit on this one.
>
> Do that and you'll find the bandwagon has plenty of space all of sudden.
I definitely agree here. This is tantamount to an effeort at
commercialization.
If people were to be funded, I personally (not that my opinion matters)
would be most happy with administration of funding by the FreeBSD
project to fund work on things that aren't fun, either because they
are very hard or becuase they nvolve a lot of uninteresting minutia.
This is a hell of a lot different that putting together a corporate
organism for commercializing FreeBSD.
My pet projects would include:
o ABI compatability with commercial OS's, including install
and other environmental tools that, by their absence, make
it impossible for me to easily install off-the-shelf
software.
o SMP; fine grained, without UP impact
o RealTime support (deadlining)
o Networking (NetBEUI, PC-server client FS's, etc.)
o Keeping up with the Jones's (Linux Jones, OpenBSD Jones, etc.;
mostly hardware support, like guaranteeing FreeBSD will run
on any given Dell/Gateway/Whatever box you buy, but also
security and other patches that other BSD's have volunteers
for that FreeBSD doesn't)
o Porting to other platforms
o A grumpy old man for the source tree to go around behind
developers cleaning up trivial things that keep the tree from
being buildable, and in general, implementing dependencies
that actually work and any other similar scut-work that needs
doing. A source-base reputation polisher, if you will.
In other words, things that volunteers are unlikely to do, or that are
unlikely to get done without paying someone to do them because of
complexity of the task, or the ongoing maintenance penalty, or for
whatever other reasons. Anyone should fee free to add to this list,
but no voting or other crap should be employed in the decision making
process for resource allocation; there is no room for Gerrymandering.
For lack of a better description, "scut-work"... "work" as opposed
to "fun".
I would definitely oppose commercialization of FreeBSD itself; if
you want a commercial BSD, go get BSDI. Commercial software, in
my experience, does not raise the bar in a useful way (ie: "here is
the new bar, everyone else take the code and put up the new bar").
FreeBSD is in a unique position, I think (well, nearly; other BSD's
are in a similar position, and a couple other projects fall into that
category as well).
I have worked for more than one commercial company that not only
did not want the bar generally raised, they actively opposed anyone
else raising any bars, because it would mean integration work for
them (and to hell with the fact that they were nailing the left foot
of progress to the floor). Anyone else see any commercial software
companies in that description? ...I knew you could.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 12:51:00 1998
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
jak@cetlink.net, mike@smith.net.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
hasty@rah.star-gate.com
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:30:07 GMT."
<199803052030.NAA07313@usr06.primenet.com>
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:50:27 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Please Terry don't be naive. Because I like you I will give you one more
chance. I will give you a high level hint: No traditional management
technique is going to apply to FreeBSD.org due to its culture and
motivation drive.
This invitation does not apply to Poul-Koening not sure he can cope
at this level 8)
Cheers,
Amancio
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:52:14 +0000
From: "Aaron D. Gifford" <agifford@infowest.com>
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com> <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net> <19980304083721.56007@mcs.net>
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Karl Denninger wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:07:29PM +0000, John Kelly wrote:
> > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard"
> > <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG> wrote:
> >
> > >> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be
> > >> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by
> > >> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do
> > >> that.
> > >
> > >This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have
> > >a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate
> > >funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now?
> > >
> > > Jordan
> >
> > Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do.
> >
> > If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone
> > else will.
>
> Bingo.
>
> MCSNet could make a reasonably-sized donation to this cause (few thousand
> bucks) and would have no problem with doing so. In fact, if we had some
> idea what that incremental funding would do, I could make the business case
> to be significantly more generous. Simply put, money ain't the issue.
>
> The issue is that there are certain things that we really *NEED* fixed, and
> to stay as priorities in remaining fixed as time goes on (things that used
> to work, and are now broken for example - specifically, NFS issues for one,
> and behavior under troublesome SCSI conditions [ie: returns of a defective
> block from the controller] for another). I'm running kernels and OSs
> patched up from November, specifically because since then the stability of
> -CURRENT is bad enough from both direct observation and reports that if
> the risks grossly outweigh the rewards of trying to roll an upgrade
> through the network right now.
>
> If I fund the *breakage* of something critical to us, I'm shooting myself
> in the foot. That's unwise.
>
> I understand that Jordan and the rest of the core team have their own
> priorities. They sometimes don't mesh with mine. Ok, good and well. I
> work around what I can, patch around what I can't work around, and remain
> a few rev levels back if necessary in certain areas. That level of choice
> is one of the nicities of a free operating system environment with source
> code in a CVS tree.
>
> But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able
> to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way.
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
> http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
> | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems
> Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS
> Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
I have to agree with both sides of this issue. Let me explain.
I believe Jordan's no-strings stand is an absolute necessity for ANY
free software non-profit organization that wants to succeed. I believe
there are enough folks who contribute freely without being compensated
because they enjoy doing so, and I believe many of these same folks
would loose motivation to contribute if donations with strings became
the norm.
Now I must agree with Karl that for a business (I use FreeBSD where I
work too), contributing money WITH strings attached works best for the
business and is the best way to encourage larger business donations.
So how would I reconcile these two conflicting interests? Simply. Keep
the status quo as far as donations to FreeBSD, Inc., but for ANY and ALL
businesses who want specific projects undertaken, get busy and SOLICIT
support from OTHER businesses, get together, and FUND development on
your project independently, then contribute your work back to FreeBSD if
you really believe in the free software model. Otherwise, found another
BSDI.
Aaron out.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 15:08:57 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:12:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel Berlin <root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu>
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Something someone should look into
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I've sent this to the smp mailing list, but i never get it back from the
mailing list on either email address i have subscribed, so i assume the
list is working weirdly.
Anyway
At least on every dual processor SuperMicro board i've tested, if you have
Adaptec bios 1.24, the SMP kernel will hang (well, after a while the
adaptec times out, the kernel panics, etc)
1.25 works fine.
Someone who is working on either the aic or smp code should look at this.
either test for bios ver 1.24 and not allow it, or something of the sort.
Adaptec, in true Adaptec fashion, won't answer my question about why this
is happening.
--DAn
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 16:00:59 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:00:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Timmons <skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu>
To: Daniel Berlin <root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu>
cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: SMP & pci bridged cards?
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Are you sure this isn't the known problem about pci<->pci bridges with smp
kernels? Do you see the problem with 3940's but not 2940's? See
http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/pcibridge.html.
I saw similar behavior which was caused by just this phenomenon -
following the procedure and hacking mp_machdep.c by hand per the www page
got things going on my tyan s1662D with a 3940.
Perhaps this problem is one that could receive some attention in Steve
Passe's abscence? Some hints on an architectural direction wrt the pci
code would be welcome. With an architectural template, some proto-SMP
hackers might emerge from the woodwork.
-Chris
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Daniel Berlin wrote:
> I've sent this to the smp mailing list, but i never get it back from the
> mailing list on either email address i have subscribed, so i assume the
> list is working weirdly.
> Anyway
> At least on every dual processor SuperMicro board i've tested, if you have
> Adaptec bios 1.24, the SMP kernel will hang (well, after a while the
> adaptec times out, the kernel panics, etc)
> 1.25 works fine.
> Someone who is working on either the aic or smp code should look at this.
> either test for bios ver 1.24 and not allow it, or something of the sort.
> Adaptec, in true Adaptec fashion, won't answer my question about why this
> is happening.
> --DAn
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 17:00:12 1998
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From: Dayton Clark <dayton@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: make buildworld
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Folks,
I've grabbed the current source and checked it out, as recommended. When I
make buildworld I get the output below. If I go into usr/src/include/rpcsrv
I can make yp.h, but all others fail. I assume I've done something silly,
but I can't figure what.
thanks
dayton
kronos:root tcsh # make buildworld
... much stuff that seems fine ...
--------------------------------------------------------------
Rebuilding /usr/include
--------------------------------------------------------------
cd /usr/src && SHARED=symlinks PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/sbin:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/sbin:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/bin:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/etc:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/etc:. BISON_SIMPLE=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/share/misc/bison.simple COMPILER_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/libexec:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/bin GCC_EXEC_PREFIX=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/lib/ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/lib LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/lib:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/lib NOEXTRADEPEND=t /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/bin/make DESTDIR=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp includes
cd /drive/sd0s2f/usr/local/src/FreeBSD/Work/usr/src/include && /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/bin/make -B all install
creating osreldate.h from newvers.sh
. /drive/sd0s2f/usr/local/src/FreeBSD/Work/usr/src/include/../sys/conf/newvers.sh; echo "$COPYRIGHT" > osreldate.h; echo \#'undef __FreeBSD_version' >> osreldate.h; echo \#'define __FreeBSD_version' $RELDATE >> osreldate.h
===> rpcsvc
rpcgen -C -h /drive/sd0s2f/usr/local/src/FreeBSD/Work/usr/src/include/rpcsvc/key_prot.x -o key_prot.h
rpcgen*** Error code 1
Stop.
*** Error code 1
Stop.
*** Error code 1
Stop.
*** Error code 1
Stop.
127.292u 63.836s 5:06.27 62.4% 345+452k 4214+6586io 17pf+0w
Exit 1
kronos:root tcsh # cpp: output pipe has been closed
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 18:32:19 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:27:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel Berlin <root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu>
To: Chris Timmons <skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu>
cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: SMP & pci bridged cards?
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I took a look at that.
The 3940 is special because they cheat by including a pci bridge on the
card to handle the extra channel, instead of using some weird method.
So it's effectively an extra controller, AFAIK. IE the controllers
don't know they are on the same card,etc.
I'm doing this from memory
of what a friend at adaptec told me once.
the 2940 is single channel.
I haven't had time to delve to deeply into the source as to why it
happens, but it indeed only happens on 1.24 bioses (i only have access to
1.24,1.25,1.32 and 1.34).
I would rather figure out if it's adaptec's fault before trying to fix
something that ain't broke.
--Dan
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Chris Timmons wrote:
>
> Are you sure this isn't the known problem about pci<->pci bridges with smp
> kernels? Do you see the problem with 3940's but not 2940's? See
> http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/pcibridge.html.
>
> I saw similar behavior which was caused by just this phenomenon -
> following the procedure and hacking mp_machdep.c by hand per the www page
> got things going on my tyan s1662D with a 3940.
>
> Perhaps this problem is one that could receive some attention in Steve
> Passe's abscence? Some hints on an architectural direction wrt the pci
> code would be welcome. With an architectural template, some proto-SMP
> hackers might emerge from the woodwork.
>
> -Chris
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:11:35 1998
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:19:53 -0800 (PST)
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Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Donations.
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
(Mikael Karpberg) <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
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On 05-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote:
> Mikael Karpberg said:
>>
>> FreeBSD is not a democracy. It's a kingdom with Jordan at the throne,
>> and
>> a group of nobleties around him.
>>
> Even though almost everyone in -core respects and generally likes JKH,
> note that he is NOT a king. If there was alot of disagreement with
> JKH, he would hear about it, and most likely pipe-down. JKH handles
> alot of the things that the other developers don't want to be bothered
> with. Given that, he deserves a huge amount of respect, and the rest
> of core mostly realizes that the coherent and generally reasonable
> positions
> that JKH takes have been working out very nicely. We would be alot worse
> off without him.
>
> JKH is very good at this common-sense thing and what he does, and believe
> me, he also doesn't take an autocratic standpoint on things. Think of
> JKH as our spokesperson, and leader because it is a postion that he is
> very good at. IMO, because of that, he has more respect than if he was
> a "king" or "autocrat".
Agree. However, Mikael's point (albeit strong) has substance. There is no
democratic mechanism in FreeBSD. There is a republican mechanism perhaps.
I think I read some opinions which would like to see some path of
recognition, or control for non-core members of this effort called FreeBSD.
This is not an invalid or unreasonable request.
My two cents on this: I do not belive in systems. I belive in people.
While FreeBSD may apear, or actually be, to a degree, a nobel repubic, I
have to say that it is run on much more logic, fairness, and honesty that
other software projects that run regular elections, have candidates,
trustees, formal boards of dirctors, etc., etc.
While their structure is more democratic, it end up being more demagogic.
I am sure that the day the FreeBSD will turn to less then honest, fair, and
just organization, will be the day it will fold.
Exactly because I have no say in whzt part of my efforts is accepted into
FreeBSD source tree, or how quickly, the only reason I stick around and try
to contribute and help, is because I want to. I do not get paid by the
project, I cannot control the project. I only contribute because I belive
it is useful, and the contribution serves my own purposes.
> DG is in that category also. The -core organization is NOT a mutual
> admiration society, but simply something that works pretty well. -core
> has been pretty much self organizing, almost in an organic fashion.
I totally agree. I think a bit of P/R towards the ``grey masses'' would
not hurt anyone. It is easy to get shunted and feel very much ``outside''.
Especially, in the beginning.
One More Point: I think some people have said the following in several
contexts, but we have to realize that this is a volunteer effort, and that
most of the major contributors are busy with their work. This means that
the scope of certain projects has to be limited, or that the management has
to get together and decide what to do. Examples:
Fine-Grain Locking in SMP.
Unless this forum knows for a fact something the rest of the industry does
not know, I think it will not happen. It is simply a huge amount of grunt
work, will terribly de-stabilize the kernel so much that it will amount to a
complete re-write. It is a huge undertaking. A more subdued, preactical
and realistic goal is needed (FreeBSD runs on PCs guys, not on Sequents).
NFS
If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project
carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other
development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than
one person's weekend job.
I'll take a piece of such effort.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:18:22 1998
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Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
Subject: Re: Donations.
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>,
John Kelly <jak@cetlink.net>
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On 05-Mar-98 Eivind Eklund wrote:
...
> My personal case: I want more input than I'd get working only on
> FreeBSD proper. I'm not certain I'd do as good work on FreeBSD if I
> had to work only on that 'forever'. But I still think being able to
> buy 6 months of people's time would be a Good Thing.
The only problem is our karnal nature. Based on what we see so far, can
you imagine the mehem once core member X gets 30% of the budget for his/her
pet project, while developer Y gets nothing.
As much as I wanted to help and triggered much of this debate, I almost
regret doing it. I think setting realistic goals and changing (some) of
the progress from ``I write what I please when I please'' to a plan layed
out by -core, setting achievable goals and finding colunteers to
participate in that effort, as subordinates rather than masters may move
some stuff that is stuck now.
I had a friend in another free software project that was involved in
building a communications sattelite for the Ham Radio operators. He
fascinated me with the details of how the different disciplines corrdinated
to lift the thing into space and have it actually work. I apologize for
forgetting your name, but you are probably listening...
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:32:55 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:26:43 -0500
From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox)
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
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I'm still seeing the following in certain circumstances when
accessing msdosfs filesystems:
vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
I know a fix was committed for this, and it mostly seems to
work, but I have a program that can still invoke this warning
consistently on my -current-as-of-10PM-last-night system. The
program in question is the 'demo' program in the gltt-1.7
distribution as included with the MoonLight Creator source.
I invoke the 'demo' program with:
>gltt-1.7> ./demo /dos/c/WINDOWS/FONTS/ARIAL.TTF
and I get the above message. After that, the file system is
basically inaccessible. For example, if I try:
>gltt-1.7> cat /dos/c/WINDOWS/FONTS/ARIAL.TTF
cat will hang hard (unkillable), and top shows it in the 'pgtblk'
state. I have tried to trace through it with gdb, but for some
reason, the program just SIGSEGVs when trying to load the font
if under gdb control :-/
Again, this is on my -current system, world and kernel built from
sources cvsupped ~10PM EST last night. If anyone is interested in
trying to reproduce this, the Moonlight Creator source can be found
at:
http://www.cybersociety.com/moonlight/
I have not seen this behaviour under any other circumstances.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:35:28 1998
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980305191953.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 5, 98 07:19:53 pm"
To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:34:43 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Simon Shapiro said:
>
> If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project
> carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other
> development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than
> one person's weekend job.
>
> I'll take a piece of such effort.
>
I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working
no-holds-barred on it right NOW.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:41:12 1998
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Message-ID: <19980305213949.34502@mcs.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:39:49 -0600
From: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <XFMail.980305191953.shimon@simon-shapiro.org> <199803060334.WAA03965@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Simon Shapiro said:
> >
> > If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project
> > carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other
> > development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than
> > one person's weekend job.
> >
> > I'll take a piece of such effort.
> >
> I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working
> no-holds-barred on it right NOW.
>
> --
> John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
Client and server?
--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
| NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:41:53 1998
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Subject: 2nd request: SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY!
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:41:02 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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I've been deliberately staying out of the discussion for the last day
or so out of a desire to see it either sputter to a halt or to
redirect itself properly to -chat but this does not seem to be
working.
What's it going to take for folks to exercise a little self control
and get the non-current relevant threads out of this mailing list?
I simply cannot count the number of personal emails I've received from
people plaintively wailing that the -current mailing list has turned
into an ongoing bar fight and they're going to have to unsubscribe if
the noise level does not abate. I don't want to start waving the Big
Stick Of Mailing List Removal around, but if people continue to show
that they are unable to control themselves when directly asked to do
so (and in caps, no less), I'll have little choice but to start
punting people off the mailing list. Please think before you post.
Thank you.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:42:37 1998
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Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
In-Reply-To: <19980305222643.01401@scsn.net> from "Donald J. Maddox" at "Mar 5, 98 10:26:43 pm"
To: dmaddox@scsn.net
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:42:03 -0500 (EST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Donald J. Maddox said:
> I'm still seeing the following in certain circumstances when
> accessing msdosfs filesystems:
>
> vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
>
Whomever has been doing the vnode_pager changes should likely
fix the msdosfs also. I am now working on fixing NFS, and am
totally swamped.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:46:51 1998
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <19980305213949.34502@mcs.net> from Karl Denninger at "Mar 5, 98 09:39:49 pm"
To: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:46:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Karl Denninger said:
> On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > Simon Shapiro said:
> > >
> > > If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project
> > > carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other
> > > development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than
> > > one person's weekend job.
> > >
> > > I'll take a piece of such effort.
> > >
> > I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working
> > no-holds-barred on it right NOW.
> >
> > --
> > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
>
> Client and server?
>
Mostly client. Server should be mostly a matter of fixing whatever recent
breakage has happened.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:01:35 1998
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From: Shawn Leas <sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com>
To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>, shimon@simon-shapiro.org,
current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se,
Jamie Novak <jnovak@ixion.honeywell.com>
Subject: NFS by Friday (Was Re: Donations.)
In-Reply-To: <199803060346.WAA04042@dyson.iquest.net>
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Good news! Consider this a heart felt thank you for your efforts. Let's
be carefull to change the subject, though.
I probably missed a bunch of -current relevant mails because I have been
deleting the Re: Donations (as 90% of us have). Re: Donations has become
all inclusive. That is to say, subthreads and spinoffs all have
"Re: Donations" in the subject.
Example:
--------------------------------------------
From: El Phantasmo
Subject: Re: Donations
X-Mailer: Mozilla blah blah blah
On Thur, 5 Mar 1998, Water Main Joe wrote:
> While the mating habits of the African Spider monkey seem
> To be unaffected, my point is...
While that may be true, the lifespan of the banana slug is, and so
too, is the color of tuesday, underwear spawn styrofoam the norful
when flurbage garfs the noodle. Therefore, ....
----------------------------------------------------------------
Just trying to illustrate the importance of the Almighty subject line.
Shawn
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Karl Denninger said:
> > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > > Simon Shapiro said:
SNIP
> > > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
> >
> > Client and server?
> >
> Mostly client. Server should be mostly a matter of fixing whatever recent
> breakage has happened.
>
> --
> John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:05:32 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:57:54 -0600
From: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net,
karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <19980305213949.34502@mcs.net> <199803060346.WAA04042@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:46:30PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Karl Denninger said:
> > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > > Simon Shapiro said:
> > > >
> > > > If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project
> > > > carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other
> > > > development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than
> > > > one person's weekend job.
> > > >
> > > > I'll take a piece of such effort.
> > > >
> > > I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working
> > > no-holds-barred on it right NOW.
> > >
> > > --
> > > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> > > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> > > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
> >
> > Client and server?
> >
> Mostly client. Server should be mostly a matter of fixing whatever recent
> breakage has happened.
>
> --
> John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
I don't know if there has been any recent breakage.... does anyone else have
any serious (ie: heavy-duty) experience in this area that can speak to
whether the -CURRENT tree, as it exists now, is ok in the NFS server area?
--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
| NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems
Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS
Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:12:28 1998
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:19:03 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org
Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Donations.
Cc: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 06-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote:
...
> I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am
> working
> no-holds-barred on it right NOW.
Great! You see how great I am? I just have to mention it once and in two
days it is done! :-))
Seriously, I think it is great. I have grown to know NFS means Network
Failure systems. I hope I can re-learn the original meaning.
----------
Sincerely Yours,
Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:28:51 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:48:33 -0500
From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox)
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
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On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:42:03PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Donald J. Maddox said:
> > I'm still seeing the following in certain circumstances when
> > accessing msdosfs filesystems:
> >
> > vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
> >
> Whomever has been doing the vnode_pager changes should likely
> fix the msdosfs also. I am now working on fixing NFS, and am
> totally swamped.
If I recall correctly, the fix in question was submitted by Terry, and
committed by Michael Smith, so I expect one of them may want to take a
look at it...
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@home.dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199803060429.WAA22909@home.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-Reply-To: <19980305215754.02721@mcs.net> from Karl Denninger at "Mar 5, 98 09:57:54 pm"
To: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:29:10 -0600 (CST)
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
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> I don't know if there has been any recent breakage.... does anyone else have
> any serious (ie: heavy-duty) experience in this area that can speak to
> whether the -CURRENT tree, as it exists now, is ok in the NFS server area?
I've played with it a bit.
nfsd under 2.2.5 is stable as a rock.
nfsd under -current croaks under heavy load.
Trying to backup my -current server over nfs to a slow tape drive can kill
it, easily. Usually it's the 'console is still responsive, but all processes
are hung.' situation.
Kevin
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:38:29 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:38:25 -0600
From: Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.net>
To: Kevin Day <toasty@home.dragondata.com>
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se
Subject: Re: Donations.
References: <19980305215754.02721@mcs.net> <199803060429.WAA22909@home.dragondata.com>
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On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:29:10PM -0600, Kevin Day wrote:
> > I don't know if there has been any recent breakage.... does anyone else have
> > any serious (ie: heavy-duty) experience in this area that can speak to
> > whether the -CURRENT tree, as it exists now, is ok in the NFS server area?
>
> I've played with it a bit.
>
> nfsd under 2.2.5 is stable as a rock.
>
> nfsd under -current croaks under heavy load.
>
> Trying to backup my -current server over nfs to a slow tape drive can kill
> it, easily. Usually it's the 'console is still responsive, but all processes
> are hung.' situation.
>
> Kevin
Hmmm... NFSD under -Current of about 11/20/97 is stable.
--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:39:13 1998
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Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:29:10 CST."
<199803060429.WAA22909@home.dragondata.com>
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:38:39 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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> nfsd under -current croaks under heavy load.
>
> Trying to backup my -current server over nfs to a slow tape drive can kill
> it, easily. Usually it's the 'console is still responsive, but all processes
> are hung.' situation.
>
Can you post what the processes are waiting on? You know sometimes that
may give a good clue to what is going on.
Cheers,
Amancio
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 23:02:26 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:02:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Bartol <bartol@salk.edu>
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
cc: karl@mcs.net, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se
Subject: -current NFS discussion
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Hello John et al.,
Just to add my own observations of -current NFS... We run a mixture of
unix platforms at our site (SunOS 4.1.3U1, IRIX 5.X and 6.X, Digital UNIX
4.0, Linux 2.X, FreeBSD 2.2.5 and -current) and our NFS server is an
Auspex NS7000. I support -current on my own box here so that I can keep
up-to-date with things and advise the rest of the lab on progress. My
machine mounts the Auspex in NFSv3 mode at 100Mb/s across an ethernet
switch. I have an Intel EtherExpress Pro 100b interface card. Stability
of NFS has been shakey over the past several weeks so I keep having to
fall back to the Feb 14 kernel I built. Although today's kernel (cvsupped
the morning of March 5 PST) seems to be working fine so far (I believe the
recent change to vfs_bio.c v1.153 on March 4 may be responsible for this
for me).
However, I am still experiencing (i.e. I've reported this before) an
NFS-related problem with today's -current whereby if I use the the
compat-linux gcc to compile source code located on an NFS mounted
filesystem the resulting executable is defective and will not run. The
same code compiles perfectly when located on a local filesystem. For some
reason, trivially simple code (like hello_world) compiles fine even if
across NFS but larger code fails. I have not been able to narrow down the
point in complexity or file-size at which the problem creeps in but I'd
say the evidence points at a problem in NFS still lurking in there.
So, you may ask, why do I care about compiling Linux binaries on a FreeBSD
box? Well, believe it or not, it's very useful to us because we make
great use of Matlab (for which there is a Linux version but not a FreeBSD
version) and we need to link in our own object code to operate within
Matlab efficiently. Pretty twisted, I know, but it does work rather well
(except for the NFS problem, that is).
If I can be of help to supply more info on this problem please let me
know.
Many, many thanks,
Tom
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Karl Denninger wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:46:30PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > Karl Denninger said:
> > > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > > > Simon Shapiro said:
> > > > >
> > > > > If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project
> > > > > carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other
> > > > > development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than
> > > > > one person's weekend job.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll take a piece of such effort.
> > > > >
> > > > I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working
> > > > no-holds-barred on it right NOW.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> > > > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> > > > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
> > >
> > > Client and server?
> > >
> > Mostly client. Server should be mostly a matter of fixing whatever recent
> > breakage has happened.
> >
> > --
> > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
> > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
>
> I don't know if there has been any recent breakage.... does anyone else have
> any serious (ie: heavy-duty) experience in this area that can speak to
> whether the -CURRENT tree, as it exists now, is ok in the NFS server area?
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin
> http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service
> | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems
> Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS
> Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 23:18:31 1998
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Subject: utmp problem
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:45:34 +1030
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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Hi,
I think my utmp file is being corrupted.. Sometimes when I run w or who, they
work OK, but other times it gives corrupt output - eg
[holly 5:49pm] ~> w
5:49PM up 4 days, 21:21, 1 user, load averages: 0.14, 0.63, 0.92
USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT
«¢þ4 - 01Jan70 15:49 -
I can't pinpoint _when_ it misbehaves, which is pretty useless :)
I was just wondering if any one has seen this problem before.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software |
|http://www.gsoft.com.au |
|The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to|
|choose from. -- Andrew Tanenbaum |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 23:57:09 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:40:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
To: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: utmp problem
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On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> I can't pinpoint _when_ it misbehaves, which is pretty useless :)
> I was just wondering if any one has seen this problem before.
See the archives for lots of reports of this.
You have some old software which is screwing it up. The username length
was changed from 8 to 16 a long time ago, and unfortunately, due to the
silly way wtmp/utmp is handled, all software which touches these files
needs to be re-compiled.
Tom
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 00:22:21 1998
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Subject: Re: 2nd request: SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY!
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> What's it going to take for folks to exercise a little self control
> and get the non-current relevant threads out of this mailing list?
Majordomo 1.94.4 (the latest) has a feature called "taboo headers"
which I've found to be a marvelous tool when it comes to managing
problems like this. I agree that it should not be necessary, but
sometimes posts to the wrong list that just "go away" and never appear
are a good wake up call. :)
Doug
--
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 01:22:23 1998
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Subject: Making good progress on NFS!!!
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:22:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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FYI,
I am making good progress, finding lots of "good" (relatively minor, but
can cause sporadic) problems in both NFS (getpages, putpages) and with
our UFS getpages code. Also, I have a prelim fix for the MS_INVALIDATE
problem alluded to by Ron Minnich.
New things include more dynamic sensing of sequential fault behavior
(the hooks have been there for a few years, but just haven't implemented
them until now.) That has come virtually for free as a result of
desperately needed cleanups in ffs_getpages.
I expect my commits to happen on Fri night, and I would appreciate help
in testing the changes. I will have "tested" them, but there is nothing
like verifying proper behavior on a real system.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 01:26:33 1998
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To: dmaddox@scsn.net
cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:48:33 EST."
<19980305224833.53242@scsn.net>
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:30:29 +0300
From: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
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Donald J. Maddox wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:42:03PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > Donald J. Maddox said:
> > > I'm still seeing the following in certain circumstances when
> > > accessing msdosfs filesystems:
> > >
> > > vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
> > >
> > Whomever has been doing the vnode_pager changes should likely
> > fix the msdosfs also. I am now working on fixing NFS, and am
> > totally swamped.
>
> If I recall correctly, the fix in question was submitted by Terry, and
> committed by Michael Smith, so I expect one of them may want to take a
> look at it...
Not quite so. The breakage was introduced by Terry in this commit. Now he
made a patch to fix the remaining filesystems, but the patch was not
committed. These changes completely break my "aesthetic principles", and
I started to argue. Then the weekend was finished, I lost the free
time.... So --- sorry, I feel I lose due to timeout... On other hand,
there is a new weekend soon... :) Anyway, arguing with Terry is not a big
fun...
Dima
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 01:38:02 1998
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To: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
cc: dmaddox@scsn.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:30:29 +0300."
<199803060930.MAA01918@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 01:35:17 -0800
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> > > > vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
>
> Not quite so. The breakage was introduced by Terry in this commit. Now he
> made a patch to fix the remaining filesystems, but the patch was not
> committed. These changes completely break my "aesthetic principles", and
> I started to argue. Then the weekend was finished, I lost the free
> time.... So --- sorry, I feel I lose due to timeout... On other hand,
> there is a new weekend soon... :) Anyway, arguing with Terry is not a big
> fun...
I'm committing the patch, cosmetics ignored, just to fix the breakage
introduced.
I would ask that you continue your discussions with Terry et. al. in
order to ensure that the ultimate conclusion(s) you reach are
implemented rather than being lost in the noise.
BTW, did you get anywhere with that "mount fails, remount explodes"
problem?
Thanks!
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 02:04:56 1998
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Subject: Why should grep be compiled with -g ??
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:04:37 +0100 (MET)
From: Søren Schmidt <sos@FreeBSD.ORG>
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I just stumpled over this, and this is what cvs says:
revision 1.11
date: 1997/12/21 19:15:02; author: wosch; state: Exp; lines: +5 -1
When called as `zgrep', the -Z argument is assumed. Make a
link from zgrep to grep.
I does not mention why it should be compiled with debug on ??????
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team
Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 02:22:39 1998
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 01:35:17 PST."
<199803060935.BAA28763@dingo.cdrom.com>
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 13:23:14 +0300
From: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
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Mike Smith wrote:
>
> BTW, did you get anywhere with that "mount fails, remount explodes"
> problem?
>
Ummm, take a look at PR kern/5904, especially Bruce's reply. It actually
looks like John Dyson's area...
Dima
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 02:54:25 1998
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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:54:28 +0100 (CET)
From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>
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To: Tom <tom@uniserve.com>
cc: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: utmp problem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980305233842.4473A-100000@shell.uniserve.com>
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On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Tom wrote:
>
> On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
>
> > I can't pinpoint _when_ it misbehaves, which is pretty useless :)
> > I was just wondering if any one has seen this problem before.
>
> See the archives for lots of reports of this.
>
> You have some old software which is screwing it up. The username length
> was changed from 8 to 16 a long time ago, and unfortunately, due to the
> silly way wtmp/utmp is handled, all software which touches these files
> needs to be re-compiled.
I have experienced the same problem, and it was really hard to tell what
was causing it - then after loooong time of spying around I found an old
version of xterm... :-)
Andrzej Bialecki
---------------------+---------------------------------------------------------
abial@warman.org.pl | if(halt_per_mth > 0) { fetch("http://www.freebsd.org") }
Research & Academic | "Be open-minded, but don't let your brains to fall out."
Network in Poland | All of the above (and more) is just my personal opinion.
---------------------+---------------------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 07:52:17 1998
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To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly)
cc: Brian Handy <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:24:26 GMT."
<3503ee97.43278373@mail.cetlink.net>
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 15:49:07 +0000
From: Brian Somers <brian@Awfulhak.org>
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> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:21 -0800 (PST), Brian Handy
> <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com> wrote:
>
> >But this childish crap about "I'm only donating if you do XXX with
> >my money" is dumb.
>
> No, that's an ultimatum and I never proposed that. I proposed that I
> have a vote. My vote would be collected with all the other votes and
> the collective vote would determine the funded projects. If my
> project does survive the vote, I accept that as part of the voting
> process, without asking for my money back.
You already have a vote, and it's FREE like the rest of the project.
Your vote is cast on -hackers, discussed and decided upon. Once the
decision is made, you can then reach into your pocket to fund that
decision if it's not going to be actioned as soon as you want.
Lots of people have already pointed out that the difference between
the FreeBSDs and the Microsofts of this world is due to guy that
makes the decisions. This doesn't *have* to be the guy holding the
purse strings.
> --
> Browser war over, Mozilla now free.
--
Brian <brian@Awfulhak.org>, <brian@FreeBSD.org>, <brian@OpenBSD.org>
<http://www.Awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 08:27:09 1998
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
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Subject: Re: 2nd request: SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY!
In-Reply-To: <34FFB236.8D7D93F1@san.rr.com> from Studded at "Mar 6, 98 00:22:14 am"
To: Studded@san.rr.com (Studded)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:26:58 -0800 (PST)
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Studded wrote:
> Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
> > What's it going to take for folks to exercise a little self control
> > and get the non-current relevant threads out of this mailing list?
>
> Majordomo 1.94.4 (the latest) has a feature called "taboo headers"
> which I've found to be a marvelous tool when it comes to managing
> problems like this. I agree that it should not be necessary, but
> sometimes posts to the wrong list that just "go away" and never appear
> are a good wake up call. :)
yes it does.....taboo headers and taboo body...which i use
to filter spam.
i am reluctant to use for any other purpose.
this thread is hte best reason to use it to kill
mail that i have seen to date ;)
jmb
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 12:12:00 1998
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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:11:27 +0200 (EET)
From: Vallo Kallaste <vallo@matti.ee>
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: current reboots frequently after vidcontrol
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Hello !
I have some problems with current. After logging into system there are
some commands in my .cshrc file. Looks like command at the end of my
.cshrc file:
mixer mic 0:0
mixer cd 0:0
/usr/sbin/vidcontrol -m on
/usr/sbin/vidcontrol VGA_80x30
causes sometimes immediate reboot. I say sometimes because this is not a
rule, but if I remove vidcontrol VGA_80x30 of my .cshrc reboots leave
off. There are no coredump or messages on the console, only fast and dirty
reboot.
Must I send a pr ? Maybe some comments are helpful if I do something wrong
which causes that thing.
Thanks
Vallo Kallaste
vallo@matti.ee
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 13:00:17 1998
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To: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
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current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Donations.
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On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Brian Somers wrote:
> Lots of people have already pointed out that the difference between
> the FreeBSDs and the Microsofts of this world is due to guy that
> makes the decisions. This doesn't *have* to be the guy holding the
We don't make decisions. We discover what they should be. :)
--
tIM...HOEk
OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names
hoping that the resultant code will run faster.
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 17:55:13 1998
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
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Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum)
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:54:55 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: dmaddox@scsn.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199803060930.MAA01918@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from "Dmitrij Tejblum" at Mar 6, 98 12:30:29 pm
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> > > Whomever has been doing the vnode_pager changes should likely
> > > fix the msdosfs also. I am now working on fixing NFS, and am
> > > totally swamped.
> >
> > If I recall correctly, the fix in question was submitted by Terry, and
> > committed by Michael Smith, so I expect one of them may want to take a
> > look at it...
>
> Not quite so. The breakage was introduced by Terry in this commit. Now he
> made a patch to fix the remaining filesystems, but the patch was not
> committed.
The patches being discussed are at:
http://www.freebsd.org/~terry/D.GP.REST
> These changes completely break my "aesthetic principles", and
> I started to argue. Then the weekend was finished, I lost the free
> time.... So --- sorry, I feel I lose due to timeout... On other hand,
> there is a new weekend soon... :) Anyway, arguing with Terry is not a big
> fun...
I'm willing to discuss (not argue) the design.
The reason I went the way I did was that putting the vnode_pager.c
code in the defaultops vector does nothing toward making the code
in vnode_pager.c _go away_, which is the eventual goal. FS's which
can act as backing store need to have FS specific backing store
management, for a large variety of reasons (I can enumerate these
reasons again, if you need me to).
A secondary reason is that it means I have to make special code in
stacking FS's in order to be able to access the bypass (which I think
should be placed in the defaultops vector instead). I think this is
bad because I think that FS stacking layers are going to vastly
outnumber local media FS's in the near future, providing we can get
the code to make them work committed for people to use as a foundation
for their own hacking. I personally have three that I'd like to see
done, and other people have approached me about cryptography,
compression, NFS anonymous mount/WebNFS exposure via "//nfs/...",
the same thing for FTP, ACL's, and other stuff so wierd even I think
it's strange to want.
A tertiary reason is that if the code is in the defaultops vector,
I can't know when it becomes safe to remove from vnode_pager.c
and the defaultops vector. There's no way to measure usage of
the defaultops code (that's kind of the point, really).
I don't think you've "lost by timeout", but by the same token, you've
failed to make a compelling case why putting it in the defaultops
is not ill-advised.
Like I said, I'm open to discussion on all of this; lately, I've
found a granularity where I've been on a roll, and nothing would
squelch that faster than a set of badly thought out patches. It's
in my best interests to listen to what you have to say.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 19:10:44 1998
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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:06:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel Berlin <root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu>
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: GCC-2.8.0
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Okay, i've had a couple problems with this.
I've tried it both on my own, and with the new ports package that was jsut
made.
A. FYI, GCC-2.8.1 is out.
B. The ports package is configuring it as i386-unknown-freebsd3.0 instead
of i386-freebsd. Or does this not matter?
C. Gcc works fine. G++ (and any version of g++ other than the one from the
contrib dir's gcc) won't work, it reports "/usr/lib/crt0.o: Undefined
reference to function _main in .text"
What does this mean?
I've recompiled and reinstalled crt0.o with the new compiler, no luck.
Of course, as mentioned, no matter what i do, the g++ from the contrib dir
always works.
--Dan
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 05:25:51 1998
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From: Peter Dufault <dufault@hda.com>
Message-Id: <199803071325.IAA11722@hda.hda.com>
Subject: cross platform system call table
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:25:46 -0500 (EST)
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Does anyone have a tabulation of the system calls for Linux,
BSDi, NetBSD etc? If so could you either "man 9" it or send it to
me and I'll do that.
Peter
--
Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control,
HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 09:51:00 1998
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Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 18:53:34 +0100
From: Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@giovannelli.it>
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To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: makeworld fails : cvsup 980304
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--- cron ---
cc -nostdinc -O -pipe -DLOGIN_CAP -I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include
-o cron
cron.o database.o do_command.o job.o user.o popen.o -lutil
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text
segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_cron_uid' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_cron_cwd' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text
segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_close' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_debug_flags' referenced from text segment
database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from
text segmen
t
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_mkprints' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_first_word' referenced from text
segment
do_command.o: More undefined symbol _log_it refs follow
user.o: Undefined symbol `_free_entry' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_init' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_load_env' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_load_entry' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_set' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_free' referenced from text segment
*** Error code 1
1 error
*** Error code 2
1 error
*** Error code 2
1 error
*** Error code 2
1 error
*** Error code 2
1 error
*** Error code 2
1 error
--
Regards...
Gianmarco
"Unix expert since yesterday"
http://www.giovannelli.it
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 10:04:31 1998
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Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:07:13 +0100
From: Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@giovannelli.it>
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Subject: Re: makeworld fails : cvsup 980304
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Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote:
Ops sorry it have to be cvsup 980307 , because today is 7th even if my
clock continues to think it is the 4th :-)
--
Regards...
Gianmarco
"Unix expert since yesterday"
http://www.giovannelli.it
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 12:51:13 1998
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Subject: Warning, Will Robinson!!!
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:51:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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I am committing some upgrades to VM, VFS and NFS behaviors. I'll
send a note to -current when I have verified and tested the resultant
commits. (The changes aren't all that dangerous, but I want to make
sure that no-one tries to test something that might be mistaken
committage :-).)
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 14:57:04 1998
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199803072256.RAA02792@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use
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I have committed all of my pending NFS, VFS and VM fixes. The regression
tests have been run, and the system has run nicely with my normal load and
an artifically high load.
Please give me feedback ASAP, so that I can fix problems ASAP!!! :-).
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 15:48:57 1998
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 01:54:55 GMT."
<199803070154.SAA27728@usr09.primenet.com>
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> The reason I went the way I did was that putting the vnode_pager.c
> code in the defaultops vector does nothing toward making the code
> in vnode_pager.c _go away_, which is the eventual goal.
Your changes do same nothing toward this goal. Everyone can insert a
function into a vnops table. It is trivial. Almost nobody can write a
real getpages or putpages routine. For example, you failed even to
write a readonly cd9660_putpages, while it would be, apparently,
trivial. (I suspect, simple 'return (VM_PAGER_BAD);' would do a right
thing.) You also failed to mention this problem in your standard comment.
So, when real implementation for getpages and putpages for all these
filesystem will written?
Filesystem-specific getpages/putpages possible since end of 1995. You
saved a filesystem writer from writing 7 obvious lines of each
implementations (even these lines contain style bugs, so actual number
is slightly less). Is this the big win?
> FS's which
> can act as backing store need to have FS specific backing store
> management,
A problem is that every leaf filesystem with 'regular' files may be
asked to act as backing store. For example, try
cmp /proc/1/map /proc/curproc/map
After you 'fix' getpages on procfs with your usual method, you will
notice that procfs does not implement VOP_STRATEGY. (and that pfs_type
is not a string, like procfs_print thinks). But why something ever
try to call STRATEGY on procfs? Because procfs implement BMAP in some
'specific' way. This serves as a little example of usefulness of some
filesystem-specific code.
> for a large variety of reasons (I can enumerate these
> reasons again, if you need me to).
Well, actually I don't know any reasons for it, other than reference to
John Dyson's authority and complexity of the generic code. So it would
be interesting. But it is outside of scope of this discussion.
> A secondary reason is that it means I have to make special code in
> stacking FS's in order to be able to access the bypass (which I think
> should be placed in the defaultops vector instead).
I am not sure if I can parse this. Anyway, I claim that my way has
exactly same results as your in this aspect. From point of view of a
stacking layer, the filesystem below provide a getpages/putpages
implementation, and this is all that you want. Also you want that you
will get a warning if your stacking layer does not bypass or implement
the getpages/putpages correctly. Then make vop_nogetpages and
vop_noputpages, which will print the warning and the bad vnode and
return VM_PAGER_BAD (which is at least a correct getpages/putpages return
value, unlike EOPNOTSUPP), and put vop_stdgetpages and vop_stdputpages
to vnops table of affected local medial file systems.
> [...]
>
> A tertiary reason is that if the code is in the defaultops vector,
> I can't know when it becomes safe to remove from vnode_pager.c
> and the defaultops vector. There's no way to measure usage of
> the defaultops code (that's kind of the point, really).
OK, don't put it to defaultops vector, put vop_stdgetpages and
vop_stdputpages to vnops table of every affected filesystem. I suggest
it in every mail on this topic :-).
One may say that my complains are more about decorative issues that
about real programming issues. Sorry. It is because all discussing
changes actually more decorative than real code. And as decorative,
they are IMHO bad. Also, unfortunately, most points in this discussion
were repeated several times...
Dima
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:02:55 1998
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To: Dmitrij Tejblum <dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>
Cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system
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As a complete newbie to this, let me see if I can inject my thoughts
into this.
Terry wants FS implementors (therefore all FS's) to explicitly write
code for vnode_pagers, rather than having the (potentially buggy) code
used by FS writers.
Dima wants people to not have write potentially trivial code into their
FS, but give them a default that will work in most cases.
Terry claims that if they rely on the trivial code, it could cause bugs.
Dima claims that for most existing FS's, the trivial stuff is good
enough for their purposes, and that any FS developer that isn't writing
a trivial FS already is smart enough to write a non-default vnode_pager
implementation.
Terry claims that this vnode_pager stuff should go away, and it'll be
easier to remove it by making sure that all FS's have this code, but
then he loses me from that point on.
Is everything I said up to this point true for the most part?
If so, I've gotta agree with Dima here. Anyone silly enough to write
FS's should know what they're doing, and forcing them to write more
boilerplate code that could be done by default is simply silliness. If
you're smart enough to write FS, you should also be smart enough to
figure out when the defaults won't cut it.
This is the intent of stacking FS's as I understand. The VFS stuff is
intended to make FS design more OOP, so that you can pick what things
you need to implement, and not have to implement others, just like
object inheritence.
Tell me what I'm missing, if anything?
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:04:34 1998
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Message-Id: <199803080000.BAA03875@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use
In-Reply-To: <199803072256.RAA02792@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 7, 98 05:56:58 pm"
To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:00:17 +0100 (CET)
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According to John S. Dyson:
> I have committed all of my pending NFS, VFS and VM fixes. The regression
> tests have been run, and the system has run nicely with my normal load and
> an artifically high load.
Well, not really feedback, I'm affraid.
However, when I read your commit messages, I thought of something.
At out computer society we have a Sun with a presto card (I think...
Battery backed write cache for the scsi chain, or something). That made
a big difference when handling NFS writes. Even with a pretty nifty
FreeBSD machine it was hard to keep up with the write speeds we saw on
the Sun, IIRC.
Now, ofcourse, the Sun was cheating and using "UPSed cache", so it
could write to memory and return that everything went well even before
the first byte hit the disk. So, we have to ask ourselfs how to
"cheat right back"? Which leads to my question...
Would tuning the NFS exported disk SoftUpdates do a significant difference?
For the moment I don't think we're ready to use the SoftUpdates code, since
we're using the machine for more then just play, but it might be an
interesting thing to try once it's more robust.
/Mikael
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:12:41 1998
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Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use
In-Reply-To: <199803080000.BAA03875@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "Mar 8, 98 01:00:17 am"
To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg)
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:12:31 -0500 (EST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Mikael Karpberg said:
>
> Would tuning the NFS exported disk SoftUpdates do a significant difference?
>
Yes.
>
> For the moment I don't think we're ready to use the SoftUpdates code, since
> we're using the machine for more then just play, but it might be an
> interesting thing to try once it's more robust.
>
It probably isn't a good idea to use softupdates in production yet. However,
another interesting thing to try is:
sysctl -w vfs.nfs.async=1
on the server. This is better (safer) than softupdates, but you *can*
have data lossage, due to writes not being committed to disk. It is
a good idea to have a UPS when using the above option.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:25:33 1998
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From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
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>--- cron ---
>cc -nostdinc -O -pipe -DLOGIN_CAP -I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include
>-o cron
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Fixed.
Bruce
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:33:05 1998
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Message-Id: <199803080028.BAA03950@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use
In-Reply-To: <199803080012.TAA00282@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 7, 98 07:12:31 pm"
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:28:51 +0100 (CET)
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According to John S. Dyson:
> Mikael Karpberg said:
> >
> > Would tuning the NFS exported disk SoftUpdates do a significant difference?
> Yes.
> > For the moment I don't think we're ready to use the SoftUpdates code, since
> > we're using the machine for more then just play, but it might be an
> > interesting thing to try once it's more robust.
> >
> It probably isn't a good idea to use softupdates in production yet. However,
> another interesting thing to try is:
>
> sysctl -w vfs.nfs.async=1
>
> on the server. This is better (safer) than softupdates, but you *can*
> have data lossage, due to writes not being committed to disk. It is
> a good idea to have a UPS when using the above option.
We certainly don't have a UPS.
What exactly does turning on that sysctl mean? That we can get an
inconsistant state on the disk, like with mount option async, or that
writes are ACKed (or whatever you call it) directly, and then queued for
a normal write to the disk according to the disks mount options?
The latter would mean nothing except data loss at a crash, I guess, and
that doesn't seem so bad, since data written the second a crash or
power outage happens is still pretty much doomed.
And how is it better then SoftUpdates? Because it's not using beta-release
code, or are SoftUpdates a looser here for some other reason?
/Mikael
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:59:22 1998
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Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use
In-Reply-To: <199803080028.BAA03950@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "Mar 8, 98 01:28:51 am"
To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg)
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:58:59 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Mikael Karpberg said:
>
> We certainly don't have a UPS.
> What exactly does turning on that sysctl mean? That we can get an
> inconsistant state on the disk, like with mount option async, or that
> writes are ACKed (or whatever you call it) directly, and then queued for
> a normal write to the disk according to the disks mount options?
>
It is just like a normal write, violating NFS sematics, but will work
just like a regular file write according to filesystem methods.
>
> And how is it better then SoftUpdates? Because it's not using beta-release
> code, or are SoftUpdates a looser here for some other reason?
>
It isn't ready for production yet. SoftUpdates is better -async, but still
not as data-secure as normal mounts. I suggest waiting until late March or
early April. The code is probably late Alpha or near-Beta quality, with
some known problems.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 19:23:53 1998
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From: Andreas Klemm <andreas@klemm.gtn.com>
To: Satoshi Asami <asami@FreeBSD.ORG>, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: new package building machine ( was Re: FreeBSD Fund )
References: <12360.888965506@time.cdrom.com> <199803040203.SAA29686@vader.cs.berkeley.edu>
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On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 06:03:41PM -0800, Satoshi Asami wrote:
> * From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
>
> * up. I've already ordered Satoshi & crew a really nice package
> * building machine which should be here Friday and I guess I'll spend
>
> Thank you very much. That would certainly help a lot. :)
Great ! ;-)
--
Andreas Klemm
powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD''
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 19:59:35 1998
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From: Andreas Klemm <andreas@klemm.gtn.com>
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Subject: -current hangs with rand_irqs="5 9 11" enabled
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Hi !
The machine hangs when booting with
rand_irqs="5 9 11" # Stir the entropy pool (like "5 11" or NO).
enabled. The last message I see on the screen is:
Entropy IRQ's: 5
The kernel is compiled with -O2
It's current of now ...
Copyright (c) 1992-1998 FreeBSD Inc.
Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993
The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 8 04:20:15 CET 1998
root@titan.klemm.gtn.com:/home/data/sys.bisdn/compile/BISDNSMP
Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz cost 3493 ns
CPU: Pentium Pro (686-class CPU)
Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x619 Stepping=9
Features=0xfbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV>
real memory = 83886080 (81920K bytes)
avail memory = 78712832 (76868K bytes)
FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard
cpu0 (BSP): apic id: 1, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000
cpu1 (AP): apic id: 0, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000
io0 (APIC): apic id: 2, version: 0x00170011, at 0xfec00000
Probing for devices on PCI bus 0:
chip0: <Intel 82440FX (Natoma) PCI and memory controller> rev 0x02 on pci0.0.0
chip1: <Intel 82371SB PCI to ISA bridge> rev 0x01 on pci0.7.0
vx0: <3COM 3C900 Etherlink XL PCI> rev 0x00 int a irq 19 on pci0.11.0
utp/aui/bnc[*utp*] address 00:60:97:aa:3a:db
vga0: <Matrox MGA 2064W graphics accelerator> rev 0x01 int a irq 18 on pci0.12.0
ahc0: <Adaptec 2940 Ultra SCSI host adapter> rev 0x00 int a irq 17 on pci0.13.0
ahc0: aic7880 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16/255 SCBs
scbus0 at ahc0 bus 0
ahc0: target 0 Tagged Queuing Device
sd0 at scbus0 target 0 lun 0
sd0: <IBM DORS-32160 WA6A> type 0 fixed SCSI 2
sd0: Direct-Access 2063MB (4226725 512 byte sectors)
sd0: with 6703 cyls, 5 heads, and an average 126 sectors/track
st0 at scbus0 target 4 lun 0
st0: <TANDBERG TDC 4222 =07:> type 1 removable SCSI 2
st0: Sequential-Access density code 0x0, 512-byte blocks, write-enabled
cd0 at scbus0 target 6 lun 0
cd0: <TOSHIBA CD-ROM XM-5701TA 3136> type 5 removable SCSI 2
cd0: CD-ROM cd present [40472 x 2048 byte records]
ahc1: <Adaptec 2940 SCSI host adapter> rev 0x03 int a irq 16 on pci0.14.0
ahc1: aic7870 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16/255 SCBs
scbus1 at ahc1 bus 0
ahc1: target 1 Tagged Queuing Device
sd1 at scbus1 target 1 lun 0
sd1: <IBM DORS-32160 WA6A> type 0 fixed SCSI 2
sd1: Direct-Access 2063MB (4226725 512 byte sectors)
sd1: with 6703 cyls, 5 heads, and an average 126 sectors/track
ahc1: target 2 Tagged Queuing Device
sd2 at scbus1 target 2 lun 0
sd2: <IBM DORS-32160 WA6A> type 0 fixed SCSI 2
sd2: Direct-Access 2063MB (4226725 512 byte sectors)
sd2: with 6703 cyls, 5 heads, and an average 126 sectors/track
Probing for PnP devices:
Probing for devices on the ISA bus:
sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard
sc0: VGA color <4 virtual consoles, flags=0x0>
ed0 at 0x280-0x29f irq 10 maddr 0xd0000 msize 16384 on isa
ed0: address 00:00:c0:5a:98:2a, type WD8013EPC (16 bit)
sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x20 on isa
sio0: type 16550A
sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa
sio1: type 16550A
lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa
lpt0: Interrupt-driven port
lp0: TCP/IP capable interface
psm0 at 0x60-0x64 irq 12 on motherboard
psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0
pcm0 at 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x15 on isa
fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa
fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold
fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in
tel0 at 0xd80 irq 9 on isa
tel0: card type Teles S0/16.3
npx0 flags 0x1 on motherboard
npx0: INT 16 interface
joy0 at 0x201 on isa
joy0: joystick
APIC_IO: routing 8254 via 8259 on pin 0
ccd0-3: Concatenated disk drivers
IP packet filtering initialized, divert enabled, default to accept, logging limited to 100 packets/entry
changing root device to sd0a
SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched!
vx0: selected bnc. (link1)
Assigned: TEI = 0xbb = 93
--
Andreas Klemm
powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD''
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 20:04:58 1998
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To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Gary Palmer" <gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:58:59 EST."
<199803080059.TAA00326@dyson.iquest.net>
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"John S. Dyson" wrote in message ID
<199803080059.TAA00326@dyson.iquest.net>:
> It isn't ready for production yet. SoftUpdates is better -async, but still
> not as data-secure as normal mounts. I suggest waiting until late March or
> early April. The code is probably late Alpha or near-Beta quality, with
> some known problems.
Apart from the problems with using Async & SoftUpdates together, what
other `known' problems are there?
Gary
--
Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member
FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 20:34:25 1998
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How do you mount an ATAPI Zip drive?
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 20:35:44 1998
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From: Sir Lancelot <root@lancelot.cs.ucla.edu>
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To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: cvsup kernel from 3:30pm this afternoon (w/Dyson's new stuff)
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Highly unstable. No panics -- yet. Lots of things (xterm, cron, sendmail,
xconsole, xload, to name a few) just spontaneously combust with sig 11's.
Currently attempting to rebuild world, but not sure with what success.
-scooter
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 20:57:27 1998
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From: David C Ferovick <ferovick@runner>
Subject: cvsup and missing makefiles
To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
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I've noticed when I cvsup some things it misses files.
For example cvsup stable-supfile while in /usr/src/share/examples/cvsup
runs ok, but when I make world I get an error. I check on the error and
I find /usr/src/contrib/Makefile is not out there.
I thought cvsup was supposed to check to see if these files exist and add
them if they dont?
I'm asking on -current because I figured this was where people had the
most experience with cvsup and source trees :)
Dave Ferovick
(dferovic@ringer.cs.utsa.edu)
(ferovick@runner.jpl.utsa.edu)
UTSA Comp. Sci Major and ocassional sax player
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:06:04 1998
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From: John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>
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Subject: Re: cvsup and missing makefiles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9803072355.A20230-0100000@runner> from David C Ferovick at "Mar 7, 98 11:03:09 pm"
To: ferovick@runner (David C Ferovick)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:05:59 +1100 (EST)
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
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David C Ferovick wrote:
> I've noticed when I cvsup some things it misses files.
> For example cvsup stable-supfile while in /usr/src/share/examples/cvsup
> runs ok, but when I make world I get an error. I check on the error and
> I find /usr/src/contrib/Makefile is not out there.
The src/contrib part of the tree is referenced by other parts
of the tree. You never build it directly.
--
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:14:16 1998
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Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use
In-Reply-To: <2649.889329889@gjp.erols.com> from Gary Palmer at "Mar 7, 98 11:04:49 pm"
To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG (Gary Palmer)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:14:08 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Gary Palmer said:
> "John S. Dyson" wrote in message ID
> <199803080059.TAA00326@dyson.iquest.net>:
> > It isn't ready for production yet. SoftUpdates is better -async, but still
> > not as data-secure as normal mounts. I suggest waiting until late March or
> > early April. The code is probably late Alpha or near-Beta quality, with
> > some known problems.
>
> Apart from the problems with using Async & SoftUpdates together, what
> other `known' problems are there?
>
There have still been some crashes. Don't use it in production until
we have tested it enough.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:18:21 1998
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Subject: Re: cvsup kernel from 3:30pm this afternoon (w/Dyson's new stuff)
In-Reply-To: <199803080435.UAA12225@lancelot.cs.ucla.edu> from Sir Lancelot at "Mar 7, 98 08:35:29 pm"
To: root@lancelot.cs.ucla.edu (Sir Lancelot)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:18:12 -0500 (EST)
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From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Sir Lancelot said:
>
> Highly unstable. No panics -- yet. Lots of things (xterm, cron, sendmail,
> xconsole, xload, to name a few) just spontaneously combust with sig 11's.
> Currently attempting to rebuild world, but not sure with what success.
>
I just started manifesting some problems myself. I am working on it.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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To: David C Ferovick <ferovick@runner>
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: cvsup and missing makefiles
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> I've noticed when I cvsup some things it misses files.
> For example cvsup stable-supfile while in /usr/src/share/examples/cvsup
> runs ok, but when I make world I get an error. I check on the error and
> I find /usr/src/contrib/Makefile is not out there.
That's because there is no Makefile in /usr/src/contrib.
> I thought cvsup was supposed to check to see if these files exist and add
> them if they dont?
It does, if such files exist.
> I'm asking on -current because I figured this was where people had the
> most experience with cvsup and source trees :)
Huh? Stable people use CVSup the same as -current people.
Nate
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:34:35 1998
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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:04:14 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: FreeBSD current users <FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Cron breaks badly in today's -current
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So, after John said that -current was worth testing again, I supped
and started a make world. It got as far as cron:
cc -O -DLOGIN_CAP -o cron cron.o database.o do_command.o job.o user.o popen.o -lutil
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_cron_uid' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_cron_cwd' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_close' referenced from text segment
cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_debug_flags' referenced from text segment
database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_mkprints' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_first_word' referenced from text segment
do_command.o: More undefined symbol _log_it refs follow
user.o: Undefined symbol `_free_entry' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_init' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_load_env' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_load_entry' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_set' referenced from text segment
user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_free' referenced from text segment
*** Error code 1
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:49:45 1998
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
cc: FreeBSD current users <FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cron breaks badly in today's -current
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Mar 1998 16:04:14 +1030."
<19980308160414.03591@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 21:48:34 -0800
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> So, after John said that -current was worth testing again, I supped
> and started a make world. It got as far as cron:
Bruce broke this and claims to have fixed it in a subsequent email but
I can only conclude that:
A) He has become confused by too many diffs and merely dreamed
that he fixed it.
B) He meant "I fixed it in *my* tree - the rest of you can go
take a flying leap at a rolling donut!" :-) :-)
Since I certainly haven't seen any fix in my own builds.
Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 22:23:00 1998
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@home.dragondata.com>
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Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use
In-Reply-To: <199803072256.RAA02792@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 7, 98 05:56:58 pm"
To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:22:13 -0600 (CST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, karl@mcs.net
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>
> I have committed all of my pending NFS, VFS and VM fixes. The regression
> tests have been run, and the system has run nicely with my normal load and
> an artifically high load.
>
> Please give me feedback ASAP, so that I can fix problems ASAP!!! :-).
My test of:
cp /var/crash/vmcore.0 /mnt/nfs ; gzip /mnt/nfs/vmcore.0
Now won't crash the server. I'm also seeing a lower load average during
heavy nfs traffic on the client, and slightly faster transfers.
Kernel from Feb 4:
Load average while copying 80M file over 100BaseTX line: 0.40
Time: 1 minute, 21 seconds
Load average while copying 80M file over 10BaseT line: 0.38
Time: could not complete without panic
Kernel from today:
Load average while copying 80M file over 100BaseTX line: 0.31
Time: 59 seconds
Load average while copying 80M file over 10BaseT: 0.30
Time: 3 minutes, 41 seconds
(note, this segment has a lot of other traffic on it as well)
Also:
gcc test.c ; ./a.out ; gcc test.c
No longer crashes my system! :)
Whatever you did John, keep doing it. :)
Thanks!
Kevin Day
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 22:32:27 1998
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Message-Id: <199803080632.BAA02112@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use
In-Reply-To: <199803080622.AAA22812@home.dragondata.com> from Kevin Day at "Mar 8, 98 00:22:13 am"
To: toasty@home.dragondata.com (Kevin Day)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:32:05 -0500 (EST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, karl@mcs.net
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Kevin Day said:
> >
> > I have committed all of my pending NFS, VFS and VM fixes. The regression
> > tests have been run, and the system has run nicely with my normal load and
> > an artifically high load.
> >
> > Please give me feedback ASAP, so that I can fix problems ASAP!!! :-).
>
(various encouraging comments elided :-)).
>
> No longer crashes my system! :)
>
> Whatever you did John, keep doing it. :)
>
Well, I have made a few more commits, that should improve the system
stability (perhaps undo some breakage that I had caused during
this or the last megacommit.) Thanks for the encouragement!
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 22:36:22 1998
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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:36:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Manfred Antar <root@mantar.slip.netcom.com>
To: current@FreeBSD.ORG
cc: smp@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: current vm changes
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I've been getting a few messages like this from a kernel built
tonite
vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 28996 failure
Mar 7 22:27:22 mantar /kernel: pid 28996 (in.cfingerd), uid 32767: exited
on signal 11
spec_getpages: I/O read failure: (code=0)
vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 29047 failure
Mar 7 22:28:29 mantar /kernel: pid 29047 (make), uid 0: exited on signal
11 (core dumped)
I'm doing a make -j -k world in the backround on a dual pentium machine
confiured for smp. never seen this before.
Manfred
==============================
|| mantar@netcom.com ||
|| Ph. (415) 681-6235 ||
==============================
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 23:00:40 1998
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Subject: Re: current vm changes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980307223201.29549A-100000@mantar.slip.netcom.com> from Manfred Antar at "Mar 7, 98 10:36:11 pm"
To: root@mantar.slip.netcom.com (Manfred Antar)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:00:27 -0500 (EST)
Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, smp@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Manfred Antar said:
> I've been getting a few messages like this from a kernel built
> tonite
> vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 28996 failure
> Mar 7 22:27:22 mantar /kernel: pid 28996 (in.cfingerd), uid 32767: exited
> on signal 11
> spec_getpages: I/O read failure: (code=0)
> vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 29047 failure
> Mar 7 22:28:29 mantar /kernel: pid 29047 (make), uid 0: exited on signal
> 11 (core dumped)
>
I am working on it, should have better diagnostics, and possible fix in
an hour or so.
--
John | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid,
jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig.
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 23:01:46 1998
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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 08:04:25 +0100
From: Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@giovannelli.it>
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cron breaks badly in today's -current
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> Since I certainly haven't seen any fix in my own builds.
Perhaps it is this one ? :-)
Checkout src/usr.sbin/cron/Makefile.inc
--
Regards...
Gianmarco
"Unix expert since yesterday"
http://www.giovannelli.it
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From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 23:24:49 1998
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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:24:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Manfred Antar <root@mantar.slip.netcom.com>
To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, smp@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: current vm changes
In-Reply-To: <199803080700.CAA02274@dyson.iquest.net>
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On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Manfred Antar said:
> > I've been getting a few messages like this from a kernel built
> > tonite
> > vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 28996 failure
> > Mar 7 22:27:22 mantar /kernel: pid 28996 (in.cfingerd), uid 32767: exited
> > on signal 11
> > spec_getpages: I/O read failure: (code=0)
> > vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 29047 failure
> > Mar 7 22:28:29 mantar /kernel: pid 29047 (make), uid 0: exited on signal
> > 11 (core dumped)
> >
> I am working on it, should have better diagnostics, and possible fix in
> an hour or so.
>
All in all my machine seems to be working better. I have not been able to
do a full make world without it locking up for about a week.And it's just
about completed one now.
Thanks much
Manfred
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From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 8 00:06:30 1998
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To: quiksilver <quik@ultracom.net>
cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ATAPI Zip Drive
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 23:29:39 EST."
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980307232848.243A-100000@uart>
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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 00:05:07 -0800
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> How do you mount an ATAPI Zip drive?
4 screws, two down either side, or from underneath. If you want to get
it into a 5.25" drive bay, you'll need a bracket set to suit a floppy
drive (it has the same mounting requirements as a 3.5" floppy).
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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