From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 03:38:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA01754 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:38:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from helios.dnttm.ru (root@dnttm-gw.rssi.ru [193.232.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01738 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:38:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by helios.dnttm.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/IP-3) with UUCP id NAA11917; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:24:39 +0300 Received: from tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02269; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:32:58 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Message-Id: <199803011032.NAA02269@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:57:42 GMT." <199802282257.PAA08480@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 13:32:57 +0300 From: Dmitrij Tejblum Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > First, why default/standard/generic getpages/putpages routines does not > > have interface of VOP_GETPAGES/VOP_PUTPAGES vnode operations? It would be > > easier for a filesystem to just add some entries to their operations > > tables than also cut&paste implementation (even trivial) of these > > operations from ffs. > > Look at /sys/ufs/ufs/ufs_readwrite.c: > > ========================================================================== [...] > int > ffs_putpages(ap) > struct vop_putpages_args *ap; > { > return vnode_pager_generic_putpages(ap->a_vp, ap->a_m, ap->a_count, > ap->a_sync, ap->a_rtvals); > } > ========================================================================== Yes, I seen it. It is too complex. I guess you will understand my C better than my English. See a patch below. > > Second, why don't put the operations to default_vnodeop_entries? It is > > used exactly by local media filesystems. Stacking layers use bypass > > routines instead (unionfs is an exception). So, filesystems even would > > not notice this change, until they really want their own implementation > > of getpages/putpages > > > > What is wrong in the above? > > Unionfs. Specifically, the point is that the unionfs implementation > should fan out to the correct underlying implementation. This means > it shouldn't go into the default. But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case. Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar problems with future new vnode operations :-). > Secondly, you can't make FS-specific optimizations. Nothing prevent a filesystem to implement its own getpages/putpages and override the default. > > I can send a patch for you... It is indeed pretty easy... > > See above for the patch. It's the identification problem and the > stacking problem that I wanted to handle on a case-by-case basis. I don't see why default ops doesn't solve stacking problems. > As I said, it's possible to make this change go transparent (#2, > above); I would actually prefer an implementation that does *not* > define the generic code as default ops, so if it has to go > transparent, it should go transparent that way, not the default > ops way, so at least there are warning messages emitted. If you want list of all filesystems to fix them you can do 'ls /sys', 'ls /sys/gnu', and 'ls /sys/miscfs' and exclude some non-filesystem directories. Also, if you really don't want the generic code be a default ops, you can make it non-default ops and insert the ops to each vnode table that require it. > You should also follow the NFS case in vnode_pager_generic_getpages > and look at all the other vp->v_mount references. Look what the > change means to VOP_BMAP, specifically with regard to the assumptions > comment in vnode_pager_generic_getpages and vnode_pager_input_smlfs's > being called -- with the same assumptions but without the test. It's > pretty obvious that the VOP_BMAP return test is equal to the NFS > test. This code is at the heart of a lot of problems, and I'd like > to take it slow... TBH, I dont understand why the generic_getpages mention NFS at all. NFS has its own getpages. Dima Here is my patch against -current as of yesterday. --- vm/vnode_pager.c Sat Feb 28 16:45:49 1998 +++ vm/vnode_pager.c Sun Mar 1 13:05:11 1998 @@ -514,14 +514,6 @@ vnode_pager_input_old(object, m) * generic vnode pager input routine */ -/* - * EOPNOTSUPP is no longer legal. For local media VFS's that do not - * implement their own VOP_GETPAGES, their VOP_GETPAGES should call to - * vnode_pager_generic_getpages() to implement the previous behaviour. - * - * All other FS's should use the bypass to get to the local media - * backing vp's VOP_GETPAGES. - */ static int vnode_pager_getpages(object, m, count, reqpage) vm_object_t object; @@ -529,46 +521,41 @@ vnode_pager_getpages(object, m, count, r int count; int reqpage; { - int rtval; - struct vnode *vp; - - vp = object->handle; - /* - * XXX temporary diagnostic message to help track stale FS code, - * Returning EOPNOTSUPP from here may make things unhappy. - */ - rtval = VOP_GETPAGES(vp, m, count*PAGE_SIZE, reqpage, 0); - if (rtval == EOPNOTSUPP) - printf("vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system.\n"); - return rtval; + return (VOP_GETPAGES(object->handle, m, count*PAGE_SIZE, reqpage, 0)); } /* - * This is now called from local media FS's to operate against their - * own vnodes if they fail to implement VOP_GETPAGES. + * This is the standard implementation of VOP_GETPAGES. */ int -vnode_pager_generic_getpages(vp, m, bytecount, reqpage) - struct vnode *vp; - vm_page_t *m; - int bytecount; - int reqpage; +vop_stdgetpages(ap) + struct vop_getpages_args /* { + struct vnode *a_vp; + vm_page_t *a_m; + int a_count; + int a_reqpage; + vm_ooffset_t a_offset; + }*/ *ap; { vm_object_t object; vm_offset_t kva; + vm_page_t *m; off_t foff; int i, size, bsize, first, firstaddr; - struct vnode *dp; + struct vnode *dp, *vp; int runpg; int runend; struct buf *bp; int s; int count; + int reqpage = ap->a_reqpage; int error = 0; + vp = ap->a_vp; object = vp->v_object; - count = bytecount / PAGE_SIZE; + count = ap->a_count / PAGE_SIZE; + m = ap->a_m; if (vp->v_mount == NULL) return VM_PAGER_BAD; @@ -785,14 +772,6 @@ vnode_pager_generic_getpages(vp, m, byte return (error ? VM_PAGER_ERROR : VM_PAGER_OK); } -/* - * EOPNOTSUPP is no longer legal. For local media VFS's that do not - * implement their own VOP_PUTPAGES, their VOP_PUTPAGES should call to - * vnode_pager_generic_putpages() to implement the previous behaviour. - * - * All other FS's should use the bypass to get to the local media - * backing vp's VOP_PUTPAGES. - */ static int vnode_pager_putpages(object, m, count, sync, rtvals) vm_object_t object; @@ -801,38 +780,44 @@ vnode_pager_putpages(object, m, count, s boolean_t sync; int *rtvals; { - int rtval; - struct vnode *vp; - - vp = object->handle; - return VOP_PUTPAGES(vp, m, count*PAGE_SIZE, sync, rtvals, 0); + return (VOP_PUTPAGES(object->handle, m, count*PAGE_SIZE, sync, rtvals, 0)); } /* - * This is now called from local media FS's to operate against their - * own vnodes if they fail to implement VOP_GETPAGES. + * This is the standard implementation of VOP_PUTPAGES. */ int -vnode_pager_generic_putpages(vp, m, bytecount, sync, rtvals) - struct vnode *vp; - vm_page_t *m; - int bytecount; - boolean_t sync; - int *rtvals; +vop_stdputpages(ap) + struct vop_putpages_args /* { + struct vnode *a_vp; + vm_page_t *a_m; + int a_count; + int a_sync; + int *a_rtvals; + vm_ooffset_t a_offset; + } */ *ap; { int i; vm_object_t object; + struct vnode *vp; int count; int maxsize, ncount; vm_ooffset_t poffset; + vm_page_t *m; + boolean_t sync; struct uio auio; struct iovec aiov; + int *rtvals; int error; - object = vp->v_object; - count = bytecount / PAGE_SIZE; + vp = ap->a_vp; + object = ap->a_vp->v_object; + count = ap->a_count / PAGE_SIZE; + sync = ap->a_sync; + m = ap->a_m; + rtvals = ap->a_rtvals; for (i = 0; i < count; i++) rtvals[i] = VM_PAGER_AGAIN; --- vm/vnode_pager.h Sat Feb 28 16:45:56 1998 +++ vm/vnode_pager.h Sat Feb 28 17:10:31 1998 @@ -46,16 +46,6 @@ vm_object_t vnode_pager_alloc __P((void *, vm_size_t, vm_prot_t, vm_ooffset_t)); void vnode_pager_freepage __P((vm_page_t m)); struct vnode *vnode_pager_lock __P((vm_object_t)); - -/* - * XXX Generic routines; currently called by badly written FS code; these - * XXX should go away soon. - */ -int vnode_pager_generic_getpages __P((struct vnode *vp, vm_page_t *m, - int count, int reqpage)); -int vnode_pager_generic_putpages __P((struct vnode *vp, vm_page_t *m, - int count, boolean_t sync, - int *rtvals)); #endif #endif /* _VNODE_PAGER_ */ --- ufs/ffs/ffs_vnops.c Sat Feb 28 17:14:10 1998 +++ ufs/ffs/ffs_vnops.c Sat Feb 28 19:04:26 1998 @@ -62,7 +62,6 @@ static int ffs_fsync __P((struct vop_fsync_args *)); static int ffs_getpages __P((struct vop_getpages_args *)); -static int ffs_putpages __P((struct vop_putpages_args *)); static int ffs_read __P((struct vop_read_args *)); static int ffs_write __P((struct vop_write_args *)); @@ -72,7 +71,6 @@ static struct vnodeopv_entry_desc ffs_vn { &vop_default_desc, (vop_t *) ufs_vnoperate }, { &vop_fsync_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_fsync }, { &vop_getpages_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_getpages }, - { &vop_putpages_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_putpages }, { &vop_read_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_read }, { &vop_reallocblks_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_reallocblks }, { &vop_write_desc, (vop_t *) ffs_write }, --- ufs/ufs/ufs_readwrite.c Sat Feb 28 17:15:11 1998 +++ ufs/ufs/ufs_readwrite.c Sat Feb 28 17:15:38 1998 @@ -540,16 +540,3 @@ ffs_getpages(ap) return (rtval); } -/* - * put page routine - * - * XXX By default, wimp out... note that a_offset is ignored (and always - * XXX has been). - */ -int -ffs_putpages(ap) - struct vop_putpages_args *ap; -{ - return vnode_pager_generic_putpages(ap->a_vp, ap->a_m, ap->a_count, - ap->a_sync, ap->a_rtvals); -} --- kern/vfs_default.c Sat Feb 28 18:59:26 1998 +++ kern/vfs_default.c Sat Feb 28 19:01:51 1998 @@ -64,6 +64,7 @@ static struct vnodeopv_entry_desc defaul { &vop_bwrite_desc, (vop_t *) vop_stdbwrite }, { &vop_close_desc, (vop_t *) vop_null }, { &vop_fsync_desc, (vop_t *) vop_null }, + { &vop_getpages_desc, (vop_t *) vop_stdgetpages }, { &vop_ioctl_desc, (vop_t *) vop_enotty }, { &vop_islocked_desc, (vop_t *) vop_noislocked }, { &vop_lease_desc, (vop_t *) vop_null }, @@ -72,6 +73,7 @@ static struct vnodeopv_entry_desc defaul { &vop_open_desc, (vop_t *) vop_null }, { &vop_pathconf_desc, (vop_t *) vop_einval }, { &vop_poll_desc, (vop_t *) vop_nopoll }, + { &vop_putpages_desc, (vop_t *) vop_stdputpages }, { &vop_readlink_desc, (vop_t *) vop_einval }, { &vop_reallocblks_desc, (vop_t *) vop_eopnotsupp }, { &vop_revoke_desc, (vop_t *) vop_revoke }, --- sys/vnode.h Sat Feb 28 17:11:08 1998 +++ sys/vnode.h Sat Feb 28 19:30:09 1998 @@ -520,6 +520,8 @@ int vop_einval __P((struct vop_generic_a int vop_enotty __P((struct vop_generic_args *ap)); int vop_defaultop __P((struct vop_generic_args *ap)); int vop_null __P((struct vop_generic_args *ap)); +int vop_stdgetpages __P((struct vop_getpages_args *ap)); +int vop_stdputpages __P((struct vop_putpages_args *ap)); struct vnode * checkalias __P((struct vnode *vp, dev_t nvp_rdev, struct mount *mp)); To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 04:59:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09593 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:59:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from brane.digs.iafrica.com (brane.digs.iafrica.com [196.7.162.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA09585 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:58:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iang@digs.iafrica.com) Received: from digs.iafrica.com [127.0.0.1] by brane.digs.iafrica.com with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0y98KQ-0001ZC-00; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:58:50 +0200 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c X-Attribution: BOFH Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:58:49 +0200 From: Ian Freislich Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Noticed this when I tried to compile my kernel this afternoon: cc -c -O -pipe -Wreturn-type -Wcomment -Wredundant-decls -Wimplicit -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wuninitialized -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../.. -I../../../include -DKERNEL -include opt_global.h ../../pci/pcisupport.c ../../pci/pcisupport.c: In function `chipset_probe': ../../pci/pcisupport.c:217: duplicate case value ../../pci/pcisupport.c:207: this is the first entry for that value ../../pci/pcisupport.c:219: duplicate case value ../../pci/pcisupport.c:209: this is the first entry for that value ../../pci/pcisupport.c:223: duplicate case value ../../pci/pcisupport.c:211: this is the first entry for that value ../../pci/pcisupport.c:225: duplicate case value ../../pci/pcisupport.c:213: this is the first entry for that value ../../pci/pcisupport.c: In function `vga_probe': ../../pci/pcisupport.c:826: warning: declaration of `type' shadows a parameter ../../pci/pcisupport.c:1090: warning: return discards `const' from pointer target type Looking in the file: @207: case 0x71008086: return ("Intel 82439TX System Controller (MTXC)"); @217: case 0x71008086: return ("Intel 82439TX PCI cache memory controller"); I suppose this would have a bad effect on things. I'm not sure if this part number is both of the things this code suggests it is. -- igf (Ian Freislich) http://copernicus.iafrica.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 07:36:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23679 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:36:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (taob@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA23674 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:36:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from taob@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19708; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:36:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:36:38 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-adm1 Reply-To: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CURRENT Subject: Lockup in inode/nfsrcv on loopback NFS mount Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Could someone with a recent -current (I'm using Feb 28's) try exporting a filesystem, mounting it via localhost and copying a large file (a few megabytes will do) to the NFS-mounted filesystem? I've seen results from only NFS locking up, to all filesystems hanging, to the entire system freezing. | # showmount -e | Exports list on localhost: | /usr/local Everyone | | # mount localhost:/usr/local /mnt | # df | Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on | /dev/sd0a 98479 19940 70661 22% / | /dev/sd0s2e 148703 71996 64811 53% /usr | /dev/sd0s2f 73855 7499 60448 11% /var | /dev/sd0s2g 1525999 781757 622163 56% /usr/local | /dev/sd0s2h 762991 235510 466442 34% /usr/X11R6 | /dev/sd0s2d 452948 216517 200196 52% /home | procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc | localhost:/usr/local 1525999 781757 622163 56% /mnt | | # cd /mnt/tmp | # dd if=/dev/zero of=blah | ^C^C^C^C At this point, the NFS server processes are waiting in inode, and the client processes are waiting in either getblk or nfsrcv. Syslog does manage to log a few "/kernel: nfs server localhost:/usr/local: not responding". The first sync(8) command (if I can get to a shell) will never exit (waiting on nfsrcv). A truss on the hung process shows the last call was a write(). I don't have another machine here to try NFS over Ethernet, nor a machine with a different -current to try another loopback NFS mount. UID PID PPID CPU PRI NI VSZ RSS WCHAN STAT TT TIME COMMAND 0 0 0 0 -18 0 0 0 sched DLs ?? 0:00.01 (swapper) 0 1 0 0 10 0 484 132 wait Is ?? 0:00.03 /sbin/init -- 0 2 0 0 -18 0 0 0 psleep DL ?? 0:01.12 (pagedaemon) 0 3 0 0 28 0 0 0 psleep DL ?? 0:00.00 (vmdaemon) 0 4 0 0 28 0 0 0 update DL ?? 0:00.03 (update) 0 100 1 0 2 0 768 360 select Is ?? 0:00.10 syslogd 1 110 1 0 2 0 752 320 select Is ?? 0:00.01 portmap 0 118 1 0 2 0 464 148 select Is ?? 0:00.02 mountd -r 0 121 1 25 2 0 312 64 accept Is ?? 0:00.01 nfsd: master (nfsd) 0 125 121 0 -14 0 292 44 inode D ?? 0:00.00 nfsd: server (nfsd) 0 126 121 0 -14 0 292 44 inode D ?? 0:00.00 nfsd: server (nfsd) 0 127 121 19 -1 0 292 44 nfsrcv D ?? 0:02.03 nfsd: server (nfsd) 0 128 121 5 -14 0 292 44 inode D ?? 0:01.35 nfsd: server (nfsd) 0 132 1 9 2 0 204 16 sbwait D ?? 0:01.11 nfsiod -n 4 0 133 1 0 -1 0 204 16 nfsrcv D ?? 0:00.74 nfsiod -n 4 0 134 1 0 -1 0 204 16 nfsrcv D ?? 0:00.00 nfsiod -n 4 0 135 1 0 -1 0 204 16 nfsrcv D ?? 0:00.00 nfsiod -n 4 0 150 1 0 10 0 920 404 nanslp Is ?? 0:00.04 cron 0 154 1 77 18 0 1144 392 pause Is ?? 0:00.01 /usr/sbin/sendmail -q30m 0 196 1 59 2 0 1004 324 accept Is ?? 0:02.23 /usr/local/sbin/sshd 0 252 251 1 2 0 3516 1188 select Ss ?? 0:01.86 SCREEN (screen) 1000 253 252 0 18 0 1304 676 pause Is p1 0:00.34 -usr/local/bin/tcsh 1000 269 253 5 10 0 760 308 piocwa I+ p1 0:00.12 truss cp yamato.the-birth.mp3 blah 1000 270 269 8 -5 0 272 40 getblk D+ p1 0:00.19 cp yamato.the-birth.mp3 1000 255 252 5 18 0 1300 548 pause Is p2 0:00.28 -usr/local/bin/tcsh 1000 257 255 1 2 0 1512 564 select S+ p2 0:01.93 top 1000 256 252 0 18 0 1308 944 pause Ss p3 0:00.55 -usr/local/bin/tcsh 1000 273 256 1 -1 0 136 8 nfsrcv D p3 0:00.01 sync 1000 298 256 1 28 0 668 276 - R+ p3 0:00.00 ps -lax -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 07:52:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27058 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:52:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27048 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:52:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02547; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:51:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803011551.KAA02547@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw In-Reply-To: <199803011032.NAA02269@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from Dmitrij Tejblum at "Mar 1, 98 01:32:57 pm" To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:51:46 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dmitrij Tejblum said: > > > > Unionfs. Specifically, the point is that the unionfs implementation > > should fan out to the correct underlying implementation. This means > > it shouldn't go into the default. > > But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case. > Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar > problems with future new vnode operations :-). > Yes. FS types such as union and null where the files are exposed from multiple vantage points have severe coherency problems, and I will likely help take a look at those issues when this stuff all settles out. > > > Secondly, you can't make FS-specific optimizations. > > Nothing prevent a filesystem to implement its own getpages/putpages and > override the default. > Yes. The original scheme that we had implemented that, in a VM centric way (which was an expedient choice for me at the time.) The scheme was changed to look more VFS centric, and cannot say that is bad at all. I think that moving to a VFS centric approach is less "eccentric." :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 07:53:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27295 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:53:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27289 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02555; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:53:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803011553.KAA02555@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Lockup in inode/nfsrcv on loopback NFS mount In-Reply-To: from Brian Tao at "Mar 1, 98 10:36:38 am" To: taob@nbc.netcom.ca Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:53:22 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Tao said: > Could someone with a recent -current (I'm using Feb 28's) try > exporting a filesystem, mounting it via localhost and copying a large > file (a few megabytes will do) to the NFS-mounted filesystem? I've > seen results from only NFS locking up, to all filesystems hanging, to > the entire system freezing. > There has been a historical problem with NFSv3 hanging on localhost filesystems. Is this a possibility? If so, NFSv2 is a short-term answer (if it is fast enough for you.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 08:26:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01084 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 08:26:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from helios.dnttm.ru (root@dnttm.wave.ras.ru [194.85.104.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01066; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 08:25:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by helios.dnttm.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/IP-3) with UUCP id TAA17725; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:20:13 +0300 Received: from tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00579; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:28:36 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Message-Id: <199803011628.TAA00579@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:51:46 EST." <199803011551.KAA02547@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 19:28:35 +0300 From: Dmitrij Tejblum Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > > Nothing prevent a filesystem to implement its own getpages/putpages and > > override the default. > > > Yes. The original scheme that we had implemented that, in a VM centric > way (which was an expedient choice for me at the time.) The scheme was > changed to look more VFS centric, and cannot say that is bad at all. > > I think that moving to a VFS centric approach is less "eccentric." :-). > I think, the patch I sent in the previous mail make things even more VFS centric. Could you make it clear: do you like this patch or not? Dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 13:16:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03662 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:16:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03562; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:15:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id WAA19342; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:15:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.8/keltia-2.13/nospam) id WAA00373; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:12:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980301221218.A320@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:12:18 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: "FreeBSD Current Users' list" Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: vfs.ioopt should still be 0 as default Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Current Users' list , dyson@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4103 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sorry John, but the latest VM changes you made seems to break things here... With vfs.ioopt=1 (the new default), actived (part of INN + insync patches) dies pretty fast complaining of active's format. Actived is reading periodically the active file in a buffer and with ioopt enabled, the read() just read... nothing. Thus the in-memory copy of active is junk and actived dies. Mar 1 20:40:59 keltia actived[7148]: internal no_space2 "alt.2600..." Mar 1 20:40:59 keltia actived[7148]: cant getgrouplist No such file or directory An overeager read optimisation maybe ? Sources from 1998/03/01 06:11 CTM cvs-cur #4103 With vfs.ioopt=0, everything's fine. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #1: Sun Feb 22 00:44:29 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 13:32:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06217 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:32:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06207 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:32:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09796; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:30:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803012130.NAA09796@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Dmitrij Tejblum cc: Terry Lambert , FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 13:32:57 +0300." <199803011032.NAA02269@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 13:30:46 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Second, why don't put the operations to default_vnodeop_entries? It is > > > used exactly by local media filesystems. Stacking layers use bypass > > > routines instead (unionfs is an exception). So, filesystems even would > > > not notice this change, until they really want their own implementation > > > of getpages/putpages > > > > > > What is wrong in the above? > > > > Unionfs. Specifically, the point is that the unionfs implementation > > should fan out to the correct underlying implementation. This means > > it shouldn't go into the default. > > But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case. > Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar > problems with future new vnode operations :-). Unless I'm mistaken here the contention is between Terry's point of view where all filesystems should be stackable, and Dima's where filesystems may optionally make themselves stackable. If I'm right, do we have a decision one way or the other? And if so, a *comprehensive* set of patches that cover the conversion> I'm happy to fight the style-nit and getting-it-done wars, but I gotta have the ammunition first. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 13:48:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08702 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:48:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08697 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:48:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from baloon.mimi.com (sjx-ca126-20.ix.netcom.com [207.92.177.212]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA24628; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by baloon.mimi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09826; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:47:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803012147.NAA09826@baloon.mimi.com> To: iang@digs.iafrica.com CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Ian Freislich on Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:58:49 +0200) Subject: Re: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Looking in the file: * @207: * case 0x71008086: * return ("Intel 82439TX System Controller (MTXC)"); * @217: * case 0x71008086: * return ("Intel 82439TX PCI cache memory controller"); Yikes. The second one in my commit yesterday. How did this happen? (Dig into cvs logs, mail with Jordan, etc....) Eek. So this was already in -current for quite some time: === 1.54 Wed Sep 24 7:37:56 1997 by phk Diffs to 1.53 Remove the 82371 IDE devices. Add Intel 82439TX System Controller (MTXC) fix a whitespace problem. === But he didn't bother to merge it into -stable. I am running -stable here (where I made the diffs) and Jordan is running -stable on catfish too, where we initially noticed that the chipset is not recognized and also tested the diffs. Blast. Sorry, will fix it, it is my fault not checking with -current first. But I really wish people will merge trivial things like this, with "real" changes and non-real changes between -stable and -current intermixed, it's so hard to see what's going on! :< Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:00:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09961 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:00:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09955 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:00:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA08496; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:55:12 +0100 (CET) To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) cc: iang@digs.iafrica.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 13:47:59 PST." <199803012147.NAA09826@baloon.mimi.com> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:55:12 +0100 Message-ID: <8494.888789312@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803012147.NAA09826@baloon.mimi.com>, Satoshi Asami writes: >But I really wish people will merge trivial things like this, with >"real" changes and non-real changes between -stable and -current >intermixed, it's so hard to see what's going on! :< If I had just one single machine running -stable & the time to do so I would, but neither is available to me at present. It's bad enough that Bruce has to fix all my commits to -current ;-( -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:10:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10898 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10875 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA09910; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:06:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803012206.OAA09910@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), iang@digs.iafrica.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:55:12 +0100." <8494.888789312@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:06:47 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <199803012147.NAA09826@baloon.mimi.com>, Satoshi Asami writes: > > >But I really wish people will merge trivial things like this, with > >"real" changes and non-real changes between -stable and -current > >intermixed, it's so hard to see what's going on! :< > > If I had just one single machine running -stable & the time to do so > I would, but neither is available to me at present. It's bad enough > that Bruce has to fix all my commits to -current ;-( We can provide a -stable powered spam system for any sort of testing you please, connected directly to freefall. No questions asked if you hose it, attended locally PST daytime to reset, etc, etc. No excuses. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:14:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11610 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:14:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11602 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:14:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA08571; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:09:15 +0100 (CET) To: Mike Smith cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), iang@digs.iafrica.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Duplicate cases in /usr/src/sys/pci/pcisupport.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:06:47 PST." <199803012206.OAA09910@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:09:14 +0100 Message-ID: <8569.888790154@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803012206.OAA09910@dingo.cdrom.com>, Mike Smith writes: >> In message <199803012147.NAA09826@baloon.mimi.com>, Satoshi Asami writes: >> >> >But I really wish people will merge trivial things like this, with >> >"real" changes and non-real changes between -stable and -current >> >intermixed, it's so hard to see what's going on! :< >> >> If I had just one single machine running -stable & the time to do so >> I would, but neither is available to me at present. It's bad enough >> that Bruce has to fix all my commits to -current ;-( > >We can provide a -stable powered spam system for any sort of testing >you please, connected directly to freefall. Yeah, right with 40% packet drop it's not going to help much :-( -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:20:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12581 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:20:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12572; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:20:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03354; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:19:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803012219.RAA03354@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: vfs.ioopt should still be 0 as default In-Reply-To: <19980301221218.A320@keltia.freenix.fr> from Ollivier Robert at "Mar 1, 98 10:12:18 pm" To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:19:11 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ollivier Robert said: > > An overeager read optimisation maybe ? > No, algorithmic bug still. > > With vfs.ioopt=0, everything's fine. > Will turn it off by default again, until I can figure it out. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:28:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14490 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14474; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:28:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03407; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:28:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803012228.RAA03407@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw In-Reply-To: <199803011628.TAA00579@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from Dmitrij Tejblum at "Mar 1, 98 07:28:35 pm" To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:28:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dmitrij Tejblum said: > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > > > > Nothing prevent a filesystem to implement its own getpages/putpages and > > > override the default. > > > > > Yes. The original scheme that we had implemented that, in a VM centric > > way (which was an expedient choice for me at the time.) The scheme was > > changed to look more VFS centric, and cannot say that is bad at all. > > > > I think that moving to a VFS centric approach is less "eccentric." :-). > > > I think, the patch I sent in the previous mail make things even more > VFS centric. Could you make it clear: do you like this patch or not? > I am barely back on my feet, and haven't studied the code yet. However, it initially looks like a good thing. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:30:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14962 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:30:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14957 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:30:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00550; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:30:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd000537; Sun Mar 1 15:30:52 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA26918; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:30:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803012230.PAA26918@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:30:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803011032.NAA02269@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from "Dmitrij Tejblum" at Mar 1, 98 01:32:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Second, why don't put the operations to default_vnodeop_entries? It is > > > used exactly by local media filesystems. Stacking layers use bypass > > > routines instead (unionfs is an exception). So, filesystems even would > > > not notice this change, until they really want their own implementation > > > of getpages/putpages > > > > > > What is wrong in the above? > > > > Unionfs. Specifically, the point is that the unionfs implementation > > should fan out to the correct underlying implementation. This means > > it shouldn't go into the default. > > But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case. > Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar > problems with future new vnode operations :-). Until this happens, I would prefer that the unionfs not silently pretend that there is no problem with the way it works, lulling innocent users into a false sense of security. > > > I can send a patch for you... It is indeed pretty easy... > > > > See above for the patch. It's the identification problem and the > > stacking problem that I wanted to handle on a case-by-case basis. > > I don't see why default ops doesn't solve stacking problems. Because they provide a default operation for every FS, even FS's you want to use the bypass instead. The reasoning here is that once stacking starts working reliably, there is going to be an explosion in FS stack developement. I am personally intenting to implement a UMSDOS stacking layer that is compatible with Udo Walter's UMSDOSFS in Linux (if __LINUX_ is there, it will use it). I am also very interested in doing a stacking layer for quotas, so that they work in all FS's, not just FFS. And of course, a split stacking layer similar to the Heidemann Thesis network proxy layer, except that it will proxy to user space so I can compile/source-debug/recompile/... FS code in user space. Because of this expected explosion, the number of FS's using the bypass vs. the FS's using the default ops will be much smaller. Ideally, there will be *no* default ops. This was the point of John's comments about simplification in the vnode_pager code. > > As I said, it's possible to make this change go transparent (#2, > > above); I would actually prefer an implementation that does *not* > > define the generic code as default ops, so if it has to go > > transparent, it should go transparent that way, not the default > > ops way, so at least there are warning messages emitted. > > If you want list of all filesystems to fix them you can do 'ls /sys', > 'ls /sys/gnu', and 'ls /sys/miscfs' and exclude some non-filesystem > directories. Also, if you really don't want the generic code be a > default ops, you can make it non-default ops and insert the ops to each > vnode table that require it. Local media FS's, and FS's that mimic local media FS's (of which thre is one, NFS) are the only FS's impacted. The list is: ffs, ext2fs, lfs (which is no longer there), msdosfs, cd9660 (get only), and NFS (which presents some strong problems, none of which are caused by the change, and only cares about putpages, which mostly needs to be written from scratch, given the current state of NFS). Where it does not impact are: mfs, deadfs, devfs, fdesc, fifofs, kernfs, nullfs, portal, procfs, sockfs, specfs, umapfs, and union. Tallies: FS's that have get/put: 2 FS's that are defunct: 1 (stacking FS's not included) 2 pro putpages (msdosfs/NFS) 2 pro getpages (msdosfs/cd9660) -- FS's that are "pro defaultops": 3 (bypass subtotal) FS's that are "pro bypass": 3 FS's that don't care: 10 -- 19 (total) The vote is 5:3 against defaultops, with 10 abstentions (11 if you count "Chicago votes" ;-)). Out of 19 FS's, we have 2 that still need putpages, and NFS arguably can not use the existing putpages, since client writes will fail anyway, and 2 that still need getpages. I think we should just make the 4 stub functions, on an as-needed basis. At the very least, we now have some very interesting FS demographics by what has and hasn't triggered the warning. > > You should also follow the NFS case in vnode_pager_generic_getpages > > and look at all the other vp->v_mount references. Look what the > > change means to VOP_BMAP, specifically with regard to the assumptions > > comment in vnode_pager_generic_getpages and vnode_pager_input_smlfs's > > being called -- with the same assumptions but without the test. It's > > pretty obvious that the VOP_BMAP return test is equal to the NFS > > test. This code is at the heart of a lot of problems, and I'd like > > to take it slow... > > TBH, I dont understand why the generic_getpages mention NFS at all. NFS > has its own getpages. ;-). I wondered if that would be caught by anyone or not... I don't think anyone else did a find/grep on getpages/putpages. 8-). > Dima > > Here is my patch against -current as of yesterday. The problem with this is that it recomplicates the world for FS's that want to use the bypass, and only provides a fix that we already know how to provide, in a better way. If we have to modify the same number of FS's in both cases (3), and we have to play with either (4) or (6) ops, I vote for playing with (4). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:38:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16493 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:38:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16488 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:38:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26792; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:38:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd026754; Sun Mar 1 15:38:11 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA27380; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:38:07 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803012238.PAA27380@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:38:07 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru, tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803012130.NAA09796@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Mar 1, 98 01:30:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case. > > Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar > > problems with future new vnode operations :-). > > Unless I'm mistaken here the contention is between Terry's point of > view where all filesystems should be stackable, and Dima's where > filesystems may optionally make themselves stackable. > > If I'm right, do we have a decision one way or the other? And if so, a > *comprehensive* set of patches that cover the conversion> > > I'm happy to fight the style-nit and getting-it-done wars, but I gotta > have the ammunition first. 8) This is a very succinct statement of the problem. I don't know if I can make the bypass work without NULL decriptor entries that don't result in defaultops being called. I also notice that the number of local media FS's is expected to fall (ie: LFS died), while the number of stacking FS's are expected to rise (ie: I expect to provide 3 or more, and other people have been considering ACL and cryptographic stacking layers). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 14:44:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17239 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:44:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17212 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:44:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03448; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:43:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803012243.RAA03448@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw In-Reply-To: <199803012130.NAA09796@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Mar 1, 98 01:30:46 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:43:35 -0500 (EST) Cc: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru, tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith said: > > Unless I'm mistaken here the contention is between Terry's point of > view where all filesystems should be stackable, and Dima's where > filesystems may optionally make themselves stackable. > Yes. > > If I'm right, do we have a decision one way or the other? And if so, a > *comprehensive* set of patches that cover the conversion> > No, if we go with the approach of all filesystems stackable in a *traditional* way, we will likely have coherency problems. I don't have time to do all of the research, but it seems that others are starting to do so (and that is a VERY GOOD thing.) So, for those filesystems that it doesn't make sense to use the traditional approaches, and minor mistakes made, then we'll have to teach the code some exceptions. > > I'm happy to fight the style-nit and getting-it-done wars, but I gotta > have the ammunition first. 8) > Get it done. I don't like style-nit wars. (Other's on -core might disagree, but we'll discuss that privately if need be.) We can ALWAYS work the style nit issues. I don't like to see stuff that is a-priori known to be "messy" committed to the tree though. IF we have to choose between form and substance, let's go with substance. It is best to try to balance both though. Never commit code that you know to be incorrect. Remember, we are also considering stabilizing the system soon, and that means things like VM and VFS MUST be working well so that the upper level functionality has a chance to be debugged and made to be working well!!! I am "on the mend" right now, at least doing some commits that have been languishing in my queue for a week or so. (However, they broke some read/write, mmap coherency -- to be fixed in an hour or so.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 15:19:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21200 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:19:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (taob@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21132; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:19:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from taob@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02857; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:19:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:19:50 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-adm1 To: "John S. Dyson" cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lockup in inode/nfsrcv on loopback NFS mount In-Reply-To: <199803011553.KAA02555@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > There has been a historical problem with NFSv3 hanging on localhost > filesystems. Is this a possibility? If so, NFSv2 is a short-term > answer (if it is fast enough for you.) Yep, NFSv2 works, but it creeps along very slowly. A dd never seems to climb above about 400K/sec on a P100, regardless of the block size. I notice a lot of hard drive chatter during any sustained write operation. Anyway, I don't actually need loopback NFS mounts... it was something I tried when tracking down another problem. Is it specifically a problem with the lo interface? Can it be avoided by somehow going through an Ethernet driver? -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 15:59:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28210 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:59:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28189; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:58:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03679; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:58:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803012358.SAA03679@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Lockup in inode/nfsrcv on loopback NFS mount In-Reply-To: from Brian Tao at "Mar 1, 98 06:19:50 pm" To: taob@nbc.netcom.ca (Brian Tao) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:58:45 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Tao said: > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > There has been a historical problem with NFSv3 hanging on localhost > > filesystems. Is this a possibility? If so, NFSv2 is a short-term > > answer (if it is fast enough for you.) > > Yep, NFSv2 works, but it creeps along very slowly. A dd never > seems to climb above about 400K/sec on a P100, regardless of the block > size. I notice a lot of hard drive chatter during any sustained write > operation. Anyway, I don't actually need loopback NFS mounts... it > was something I tried when tracking down another problem. > > Is it specifically a problem with the lo interface? Can it be > avoided by somehow going through an Ethernet driver? > I think that it is a deadlock mostly at the VFS/NFS level. Using the ethernet driver *might* give enough buffering, but I think that the deadlock is inevitable even in that case. As it is now, NFSv3 on a localhost (or any loopback) will likely be a problem. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 16:01:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28611 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:01:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28605 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id AAA11762 for current@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:15:25 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA07045; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:02:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980302000231.14861@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:02:31 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: make rerelease fails after about 60 minutes ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ===> FAQ ===> handbook cd /usr/doc ; make afterdistribute DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/bin ===> FAQ cd /usr/doc/FAQ ; make install DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/bin SHARED=copies install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 FAQ*.html /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/share/doc/FAQ usage: install [-CcDps] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] file1 file2 install [-CcDps] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] file1 ... fileN directory install -d [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] directory ... *** Error code 64 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 16:15:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01329 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:15:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from helios.dnttm.ru (root@dnttm.wave.ras.ru [194.85.104.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01322 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:15:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by helios.dnttm.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/IP-3) with UUCP id DAA24192; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:10:42 +0300 Received: from tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA01416; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:18:37 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Message-Id: <199803020018.DAA01416@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:30:49 GMT." <199803012230.PAA26918@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:18:37 +0300 From: Dmitrij Tejblum Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > But you must write correct getpages/putpages for unionfs in any case. > > Or, better, make a bypass routine for unionfs, to avoid similar > > problems with future new vnode operations :-). > > Until this happens, I would prefer that the unionfs not silently > pretend that there is no problem with the way it works, lulling > innocent users into a false sense of security. > > > > See above for the patch. It's the identification problem and the > > > stacking problem that I wanted to handle on a case-by-case basis. > > > > I don't see why default ops doesn't solve stacking problems. > > Because they provide a default operation for every FS, even FS's > you want to use the bypass instead. Stacking layers supposed to use generic bypass routine, like this: { &vop_default_desc, (vop_t *) null_bypass }, This is the whole point of stacking layers --- they can bypass any operation that they don't need to handle specifically. If you disagree with the above statement, you can anyway put vop_stdgetpages and vop_stdputpages to each local media filesystem's vnops table, instead of cut&paste the trivial implementation (I repeat it 3rd time, since I didn't seen an answer to it). Also, stacking layers will not use the default anyway, if they are going to work. So I wouldn't count them as vote against getpages/putpages in the default ops table. If they cannot use a generic bypass, no one warning will save them from lot of troubles. > > Ideally, there will be *no* default ops. This was the point of > John's comments about simplification in the vnode_pager code. The comment is there for years.... I will wait until it actually happens. [...] > > > You should also follow the NFS case in vnode_pager_generic_getpages > > > and look at all the other vp->v_mount references. Look what the > > > change means to VOP_BMAP, specifically with regard to the assumptions > > > comment in vnode_pager_generic_getpages and vnode_pager_input_smlfs's > > > being called -- with the same assumptions but without the test. It's > > > pretty obvious that the VOP_BMAP return test is equal to the NFS > > > test. This code is at the heart of a lot of problems, and I'd like Obvious, but doesn't true. NFS implement VOP_BMAP 8-). > > > to take it slow... Dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 16:33:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04972 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:33:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cabri.obs-besancon.fr (cabri.obs-besancon.fr [193.52.184.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA04966 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:33:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr) Received: by cabri.obs-besancon.fr (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA13001; Mon, 2 Mar 98 01:37:29 +0100 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 01:37:29 +0100 Message-Id: <9803020037.AA13001@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: gdb broken in -current X-Mailer: Emacs Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On a system built this morning: $ gdb a.out GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc...Segmentation fault (core dumped) Typical hello world programs do not exhibit the problem. In fact it cores dump when it tries to load the symbol table: $ gdb GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc. (gdb) target exec a.out (gdb) file a.out Reading symbols from a.out...Segmentation fault (core dumped) Jean-Marc _____________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 17:10:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09847 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:10:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09840 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:10:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24395; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:10:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd024348; Sun Mar 1 18:10:24 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07018; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:10:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803020110.SAA07018@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: VM: Process hangs sleeping on vmpfw To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:10:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803020018.DAA01416@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from "Dmitrij Tejblum" at Mar 2, 98 03:18:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > I don't see why default ops doesn't solve stacking problems. > > > > Because they provide a default operation for every FS, even FS's > > you want to use the bypass instead. > > Stacking layers supposed to use generic bypass routine, like this: > { &vop_default_desc, (vop_t *) null_bypass }, > This is the whole point of stacking layers --- they can bypass any > operation that they don't need to handle specifically. > > If you disagree with the above statement, you can anyway put > vop_stdgetpages and vop_stdputpages to each local media filesystem's > vnops table, instead of cut&paste the trivial implementation (I repeat > it 3rd time, since I didn't seen an answer to it). That's exactly what the generic code is. The decomplication is supposed to occur when we implement FS specific getpages/putpages, instead of using the generic version (exactly the same as your defaultops version, except for the a_offset stuff, which is ignored by the previous and current implementations). The point in doing it the way it's currently being done is that the FS's can be handled on a case-by-case basis. There's no clear line of demarcation in the defaultops implementsion: when do you get rid of the defaultops implementation? How do you tell it is no longer referenced? > Also, stacking layers will not use the default anyway, if they are > going to work. So I wouldn't count them as vote against getpages/putpages > in the default ops table. If they cannot use a generic bypass, no > one warning will save them from lot of troubles. No. But the warning *will* tell *me* to write code. If someone has a problem, it's more likely that I will get information given the warning than I will without it. Without it, people will need to understand the FS stacking code. This is unlikely, even if I (and you) do understand what's going on here. > > Ideally, there will be *no* default ops. This was the point of > > John's comments about simplification in the vnode_pager code. > > The comment is there for years.... I will wait until it actually > happens. The problem is "how can I incrementally get there from here?". The problem is how to present it as evolution when in fact, it is revolution. This is equivalent to the "show your work" requirement in calculus tests; you may be able to intuitively arrive at the right answer, but unless you explain your intuition (mathematicians are hard-asses), you can't use it as an answer. > > > > You should also follow the NFS case in vnode_pager_generic_getpages > > > > and look at all the other vp->v_mount references. Look what the > > > > change means to VOP_BMAP, specifically with regard to the assumptions > > > > comment in vnode_pager_generic_getpages and vnode_pager_input_smlfs's > > > > being called -- with the same assumptions but without the test. It's > > > > pretty obvious that the VOP_BMAP return test is equal to the NFS > > > > test. This code is at the heart of a lot of problems, and I'd like > > Obvious, but doesn't true. NFS implement VOP_BMAP 8-). Yes, it does. That's the source of the problem here. As John said, and I've insisted for some time, the problem is in the aliases. I will compromise by providing patches for the affected FS's, on the theory that "anything that works is better than anything that doesn't"... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 17:49:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15218 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:49:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15184 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:49:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08445; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:49:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd008425; Sun Mar 1 18:49:36 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08734; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:49:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803020149.SAA08734@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Remaining local media and NFS get/put/pages patches To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:49:35 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here are the remaining patches for local media and pseudo-local media FS's: http://www.freebsd.org/~terry/D.GP.REST.txt http://www.freebsd.org/~terry/D.GP.REST ============================================================================ Here are the patches for the remaining local media FS's. Against my better judgement, I've include putpages for NFS and CD9660. This should resolve all warning messages from getpages that are not a result of a bypass failure (bypass failures need to be corrected seperately; any place they occur was a failure mode before, so there are no remaining "gotch's" to the code). EOF ============================================================================ This should resolve the existing contention about defaultvops. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 18:31:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20097 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20082; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:31:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA20537; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:31:36 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 3.0-RELEASE? Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 02:33:35 GMT Message-ID: <350119f8.29209005@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803012243.RAA03448@dyson.iquest.net> In-Reply-To: <199803012243.RAA03448@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA20087 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:43:35 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" wrote: >Remember, we are also considering stabilizing the system soon As in 3.0-RELEASE? I would like to see that. Probably many others would too. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:18:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24681 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:18:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24668 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:18:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24886; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:17:30 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:19:29 GMT Message-ID: <350322e7.31438465@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803020258.VAA04156@dyson.iquest.net> In-Reply-To: <199803020258.VAA04156@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA24676 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:58:57 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" wrote: >> >Remember, we are also considering stabilizing the system soon >> >> As in 3.0-RELEASE? >> >> I would like to see that. Probably many others would too. >> >Not sure, but it isn't going to be "tomorrow." Before the weather gets hot would be good. I think it's needed before the next big wave of architectural changes hits the tree, like ELF and such. Those should be called 4.0. Maybe 3.X will have a short life span, but that's OK -- many people need 3.0 now. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:21:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25396 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:21:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25345 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:21:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07314; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:20:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803020320.TAA07314@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: "John S. Dyson" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:19:29 GMT." <350322e7.31438465@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 19:20:49 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Curious for what do you need 3.0 current? Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:23:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25734 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:23:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25696 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07342; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803020323.TAA07342@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: "John S. Dyson" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:19:29 GMT." <350322e7.31438465@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 19:23:12 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There Elves among us 8) Amancio jdp@freebsd.org said: > freefall.freebsd.org:/f/users/jdp/binutils/src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils > Log Message: > Add bmakefiles for building binutils from the contrib tree. > This finishes up the binutils import. But I am leaving it > disabled > in "src/gnu/usr.bin/Makefile" for now. It is not used by anything > yet, so I'll take this opportunity to run one more round of tests > before enabling it. > Status: > Vendor Tag: JDP > Release Tags: jdp_2_8_1 > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/Makefile > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/Makefile.inc > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/Makefile.inc0 > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/update.sh > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/addr2line/Makefile > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/ar/Makefile > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/c++filt/Makefile > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/c++filt/underscore.c > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/Makefile > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/Makefile.inc > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/Makefile.inc0 > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/as/Makefile > N src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/i386-aout/as/config.h To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:25:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26443 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:25:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26431 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25528; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:24:57 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Amancio Hasty Cc: "John S. Dyson" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:26:57 GMT Message-ID: <35042665.32332699@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803020320.TAA07314@rah.star-gate.com> In-Reply-To: <199803020320.TAA07314@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA26434 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 19:20:49 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: >Curious for what do you need 3.0 current? SMP and new PPPD 2.3.1. Reportedly better VM performance will be nice to have too. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:28:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27467 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27458 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04267; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:28:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803020328.WAA04267@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <350322e7.31438465@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 2, 98 03:19:29 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:28:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Kelly said: > > Before the weather gets hot would be good. > > I think it's needed before the next big wave of architectural changes > hits the tree, like ELF and such. Those should be called 4.0. Maybe > 3.X will have a short life span, but that's OK -- many people need 3.0 > now. > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support, but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be primary or not. I cannot imagine an official freeze will happen before at least a month or two. As I suggested though, the lower-level subsystems need to work well very very soon. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:31:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28408 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:31:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28364 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:31:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id OAA10430; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:33:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803020333.OAA10430@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <350322e7.31438465@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 2, 98 03:19:29 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:33:09 +1100 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Kelly wrote: > Before the weather gets hot would be good. In what part of the world? Yes it's been too hot here lately. 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:34:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28959 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28953 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:34:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA26336; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:34:07 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: John Birrell Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:36:06 GMT Message-ID: <350528b0.32919353@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803020333.OAA10430@cimlogic.com.au> In-Reply-To: <199803020333.OAA10430@cimlogic.com.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA28954 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:33:09 +1100 (EST), John Birrell wrote: >John Kelly wrote: >> Before the weather gets hot would be good. > >In what part of the world? The cool part. :-) >Yes it's been too hot here lately. 8-) >Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:35:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29594 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:35:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29552 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id OAA10460; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:37:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803020337.OAA10460@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803020328.WAA04267@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 1, 98 10:28:19 pm" To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:37:31 +1100 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson wrote: > It seems that we'll have ELF support, > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > primary or not. Has anyone decided what the aout to elf upgrade procedure will be? -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:39:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00486 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:39:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00433 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:38:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07702; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:08:50 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA09136; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:08:49 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980302140849.00745@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:08:49 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: John Kelly , John Birrell Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803020333.OAA10430@cimlogic.com.au> <350528b0.32919353@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <350528b0.32919353@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 03:36:06AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 3:36:06 +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:33:09 +1100 (EST), John Birrell > wrote: > >> John Kelly wrote: > >>> Before the weather gets hot would be good. >> >> In what part of the world? > > The cool part. :-) That includes Melbourne. >> Yes it's been too hot here lately. 8-) >> Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 19:41:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01339 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:41:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01324 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:41:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id WAA18067; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:38:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:41:23 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "John S. Dyson" cc: John Kelly , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803020328.WAA04267@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support, > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > primary or not. I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc.. But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad. I was counting on 3.0 till last quarter of '98 though. hmmm Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 20:02:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04820 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04792 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:02:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04407; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:01:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803020401.XAA04407@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: from Open Systems Networking at "Mar 1, 98 10:41:23 pm" To: opsys@mail.webspan.net (Open Systems Networking) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:01:51 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Open Systems Networking said: > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support, > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > > primary or not. > > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc.. > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad. > > I was counting on 3.0 till last quarter of '98 though. hmmm > I can't imagine having 3.0 ready before the middle of the year. IMO, and not necessarily that of the rest -core, I think that the "last quarter" is too long. Note that my comments MUST NOT be construed to being any kind of political statement, other than a caveat that it is time to get the lower level code in order (including my own work.) My guess is that the VFS and VM code needs to be stabilized within the next month or so. That means that low level enhancements need to be made with care. I applaud all of the new work being done on the VFS code, but am also trying to suggest that care be taken when making mods. That includes a quick back-out plan just in case there are problems. It is too early to say what every middle and upper level piece that will be in 3.0. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 20:11:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05829 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aenima.unixgeeks.net (obanta@aenima.unixgeeks.net [207.140.121.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05819 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:11:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obanta@aenima.unixgeeks.net) Received: (from obanta@localhost) by aenima.unixgeeks.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id WAA00605; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:11:13 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obanta) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:11:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803020411.WAA00605@aenima.unixgeeks.net> From: Oliver Banta To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: CDRs Organization: Unixgeeks.net Consulting Reply-to: obanta@unixgeeks.net Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, I was just curious what the best SCSI CDR that FreeBSD currently supports is. I was thinking about getting a Yamaha, but thought I would check to make sure it was supported. I checked the FreeBSD homepage and couldn't find a current supported hardware list anywhere, so if one exists I'd greatly appreciate a pointer to it. Cheers, -- Oliver Banta | Computer Engineering Major at UNL - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald Knuth To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 21:14:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10337 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:14:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10332 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11181; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:11:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803020511.VAA11181@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: John Birrell cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:33:09 +1100." <199803020333.OAA10430@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:11:40 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > John Kelly wrote: > > Before the weather gets hot would be good. > > In what part of the world? > > Yes it's been too hot here lately. 8-) Well don't look at *me*. I left and came here where it's been *raining* the last three weeks. I could have done with a bit of sun first, for sure. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 21:28:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12644 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:28:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12639 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11248; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:25:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803020525.VAA11248@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: John Birrell cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:37:31 +1100." <199803020337.OAA10460@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:25:54 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > John S. Dyson wrote: > > It seems that we'll have ELF support, > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > > primary or not. > > Has anyone decided what the aout to elf upgrade procedure will be? That's likely to come out of the bruises that the 'early adopters' are going to wear, but I would say that the initial approach will be "set BINFORMAT=elf and rebuild the world". -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 22:02:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16439 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:02:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.scitec.com.au (firewall-user@fgate.scitec.com.au [203.17.180.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16432 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:02:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john.saunders@scitec.com.au) Received: by firewall.scitec.com.au; id QAA26654; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:02:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from mailhub.scitec.com.au(203.17.180.131) by fgate.scitec.com.au via smap (3.2) id xma026632; Mon, 2 Mar 98 16:01:47 +1000 Received: from hydra.scitec.com.au (hydra.scitec.com.au [203.17.182.101]) by mailhub.scitec.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA21273; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:01:45 +1000 Received: from scitec.com.au (saruman.scitec.com.au) by hydra.scitec.com.au with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA273928504; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:01:44 +1100 Message-Id: <34FA4B49.4747FC37@scitec.com.au> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:01:45 +1100 From: John Saunders Organization: SCITEC LIMITED X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803020525.VAA11248@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > John S. Dyson wrote: > > > It seems that we'll have ELF support, > > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > > > primary or not. > > > > Has anyone decided what the aout to elf upgrade procedure will be? > > That's likely to come out of the bruises that the 'early adopters' are > going to wear, but I would say that the initial approach will be "set > BINFORMAT=elf and rebuild the world". You might want to be running a kernel that groks ELF with ELF shared libraries installed before you do a make world. Otherwise I can see a point where you overwrite an a.out program that is needed to complete the make world. Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both executable formats? Will the make world build both ELF and a.out shared libraries? Or will a.out basically die off? Cheers. -- +------------------------------------------------------------+ . | John Saunders mailto:John.Saunders@scitec.com.au (Work) | ,--_|\ | mailto:john@nlc.net.au (Home) | / Oz \ | http://www.nlc.net.au/~john/ | \_,--\_/ | SCITEC LIMITED Phone +61 2 9428 9563 Fax +61 2 9428 9933 | v | "By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends." | +------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 1 22:46:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20096 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:46:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20091 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:46:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10842; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:45:12 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from sos) Message-Id: <199803020645.HAA10842@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <34FA4B49.4747FC37@scitec.com.au> from John Saunders at "Mar 2, 98 05:01:45 pm" To: john.saunders@scitec.com.au (John Saunders) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:45:12 +0100 (MET) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In reply to John Saunders who wrote: > > You might want to be running a kernel that groks ELF with ELF shared > libraries installed before you do a make world. Otherwise I can see a > point where you overwrite an a.out program that is needed to complete > the make world. Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both > executable formats? Will the make world build both ELF and a.out > shared libraries? Or will a.out basically die off? As the "director" of the ELF project, I can tell you that we will do our utmost to make this transition easy and painless. All the needed utils will be broght in over the next week or so, and then it will be made possible to convert the userland to ELF. It will still be possible to use aout, and the system default will probably be aout for some time to come. The kernel is another matter, which we will address after the userlanc transition. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 07:33:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27943 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:33:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ix.netcom.com (sil-wa4-39.ix.netcom.com [207.93.136.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27932 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:33:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from tomdean@localhost) by ix.netcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA00593; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:31:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:31:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803021531.HAA00593@ix.netcom.com> From: Thomas Dean To: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <9803020037.AA13001@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> (message from Jean-Marc Zucconi on Mon, 2 Mar 98 01:37:29 +0100) Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG By "On a system built this morning:" do you mean that you did a cvsup, make world, rebuild the kernel and reboot? If you do a make world, you should rebuild the kernel. I was running an old kernel and saw the same problem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 08:34:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04477 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:34:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from atena.eurocontrol.fr (atena.uneec.eurocontrol.fr [147.196.69.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA03996 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:30:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@eurocontrol.fr) Received: by atena.eurocontrol.fr; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA27872; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:30:00 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr (8.8.8/caerdonn-1.4.2/nospam) id RAA00604; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:29:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-Id: <19980302172959.38382@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:29:59 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: "FreeBSD Current Users' list" Subject: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Running a CURRENT kernel with the softupdate code of 2/24/98 leads to the following panic. It is always failing at the same place in "softdep_setup_allocindir_page". Now, it is procmail that trigger the problem although the filesystem in question is not very heavily used. /dev/sd1s1h on /home (local, noatime, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 367) Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode fault virtual address = 0xf2334000 fault code = supervisor write, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf0190e06 stack pointer = 0x10:0xf407fc88 frame pointer = 0x10:0xf407fccc code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 322 (procmail) interrupt mask = trap number = 12 panic: page fault #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:296 296 dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3(); (kgdb) where #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:296 #1 0xf0113fde in panic (fmt=0xf0191d9f "page fault") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:436 #2 0xf01929a9 in trap_fatal (frame=0xf407fc4c) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:842 #3 0xf0192444 in trap_pfault (frame=0xf407fc4c, usermode=0) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:735 #4 0xf019210b in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = -231522304, tf_esi = -223766528, tf_ebp = -200803124, tf_isp = -200803212, tf_ebx = -238411264, tf_edx = 8192, tf_ecx = 512, tf_eax = -7755776, tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 2, tf_eip = -266793466, tf_cs = 8, tf_eflags = 66054, tf_esp = -259828448, tf_ss = 0}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:363 #5 0xf0190e06 in generic_bcopy () #6 0xf016ab73 in softdep_setup_allocindir_page (ip=0xf0895600, lbn=514, bp=0xf1ca2200, ptrno=502, newblkno=149872, oldblkno=0, nbp=0xf1c93708) at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_softdep.c:1416 #7 0xf0168173 in ffs_balloc (ap=0xf407fe88) at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_balloc.c:302 #8 0xf017172f in ffs_write (ap=0xf407fee0) at vnode_if.h:995 #9 0xf013b372 in vn_write (fp=0xf07b7740, uio=0xf407ff28, cred=0xf08b2d80) at vnode_if.h:331 #10 0xf011c36e in write (p=0xf4072c40, uap=0xf407ff84) at ../../kern/sys_generic.c:268 #11 0xf0192c3c in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi = 5, tf_esi = 98304, tf_ebp = -272638920, tf_isp = -200802348, tf_ebx = 2166, tf_edx = 2166, tf_ecx = 0, tf_eax = 4, tf_trapno = 0, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 537479713, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 643, tf_esp = -272638948, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:994 #12 0x20094a21 in ?? () #13 0x66e1 in ?? () #14 0x6d9b in ?? () #15 0x429b in ?? () #16 0x1095 in ?? () #6 0xf016ab73 in softdep_setup_allocindir_page (ip=0xf0895600, lbn=514, bp=0xf1ca2200, ptrno=502, newblkno=149872, oldblkno=0, nbp=0xf1c93708) at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_softdep.c:1416 1416 setup_allocindir_phase2(bp, ip, aip); (kgdb) print *bp $1 = {b_hash = {le_next = 0xf1c66d00, le_prev = 0xf01d2410}, b_vnbufs = { le_next = 0x0, le_prev = 0xf1c93710}, b_freelist = {tqe_next = 0xf1cadd10, tqe_prev = 0xf1c8ff34}, b_act = {tqe_next = 0x0, tqe_prev = 0xf07b7e94}, b_proc = 0x0, b_flags = 536870960, b_qindex = 0, b_usecount = 6 '\006', b_error = 0, b_bufsize = 8192, b_bcount = 8192, b_resid = 0, b_dev = 4294967295, b_data = 0xf2a98000 "ð\030\002", b_kvabase = 0xf2a98000 "ð\030\002", b_kvasize = 8192, b_lblkno = -12, b_blkno = -12, b_iodone = 0, b_iodone_chain = 0x0, b_vp = 0xf40067e0, b_dirtyoff = 0, b_dirtyend = 0, b_generation = 11, b_rcred = 0x0, b_wcred = 0x0, b_validoff = 0, b_validend = 0, b_pblkno = 3087692, b_saveaddr = 0x0, b_savekva = 0x0, b_driver1 = 0x0, b_driver2 = 0x0, b_spc = 0x0, b_cluster = {cluster_head = {tqh_first = 0x0, tqh_last = 0x0}, cluster_entry = {tqe_next = 0x0, tqe_prev = 0x0}}, b_pages = {0xf043deb0, 0xf043dee4, 0x0 }, b_npages = 2, b_dep = { lh_first = 0x0}} (kgdb) print *ip $2 = {i_lock = {lk_interlock = {lock_data = -238654208}, lk_flags = 4028441616, lk_sharecount = 0, lk_waitcount = -238471408, lk_exclusivecount = -8944, lk_prio = -3638, lk_wmesg = 0xf1c8ff34 "¸iÈñtÈÈñ", lk_timo = 0, lk_lockholder = -260342124}, i_hash = {le_next = 0x0, le_prev = 0x20000030}, i_vnode = 0x60000, i_devvp = 0x0, i_flag = 8192, i_dev = 8192, i_number = 0, i_effnlink = -1, inode_u = {fs = 0xf2a98000, e2fs = 0xf2a98000}, i_dquot = {0xf2a98000, 0x2000}, i_modrev = 0xfffffff4fffffff4, i_lockf = 0x0, i_count = 0, i_endoff = -201300000, i_diroff = 0, i_offset = 0, i_ino = 11, i_reclen = 0, i_spare = {0, 0, 0, 3087692, 0}, i_din = {di_mode = 0, di_nlink = 0, di_u = { oldids = {0, 0}, inumber = 0}, di_size = 0, di_atime = 0, di_atimensec = 0, di_mtime = -263987536, di_mtimensec = -263987484, di_ctime = 0, di_ctimensec = 0, di_db = {0 }, di_ib = { 0, 0, 0}, di_flags = 0, di_blocks = 0, di_gen = 0, di_uid = 0, di_gid = 0, di_spare = {0, 0}}} (kgdb) print *aip $3 = {ai_list = {wk_list = {le_next = 0x0, le_prev = 0x0}, wk_type = 0, wk_state = 0}, ai_next = {le_next = 0x0, le_prev = 0x0}, ai_offset = 0, ai_newblkno = 0, ai_oldblkno = 0, ai_freefrag = 0x0, ai_indirdep = 0x0, ai_deps = {le_next = 0x0, le_prev = 0x0}, ai_buf = 0x0} -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- Eurocontrol EEC/TS -=- Ollivier.Robert@eurocontrol.fr FreeBSD caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr 3.0-CURRENT #3: Mon Mar 2 15:06:59 CET 1998 roberto@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr:/home/build/soft/sys/compile/CAERDONN i386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 08:54:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07724 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:54:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cabri.obs-besancon.fr (cabri.obs-besancon.fr [193.52.184.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA07510 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:53:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr) Received: by cabri.obs-besancon.fr (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA17790; Mon, 2 Mar 98 17:56:19 +0100 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 17:56:19 +0100 Message-Id: <9803021656.AA17790@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: tomdean@ix.netcom.com Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803021531.HAA00593@ix.netcom.com> (message from Thomas Dean on Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:31:47 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current X-Mailer: Emacs Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> Thomas Dean writes: > By "On a system built this morning:" do you mean that you did a cvsup, > make world, rebuild the kernel and reboot? If you do a make world, > you should rebuild the kernel. Yes. the whole system and the kernel are compiled from cvs-cur-4103 (1998/03/01-06:11) Jean-Marc _____________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 08:55:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07971 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:55:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [205.168.119.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07941 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:55:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fbsd@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28772; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:54:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803021654.JAA28772@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 From: Steve Passe To: Open Systems Networking cc: "John S. Dyson" , John Kelly , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:41:23 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:54:58 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support, > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > > primary or not. > > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc.. > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad. I know this probably won't be good news for most, but I don't see SMP being in 3.0: The way things are going now, it wont be anytime soon. I don't expect to be able to participate again till late fall at the earliest. No one else has stepped up to take over. The state it is in now is NOT release quality. I don't think there is much finer grained locking to be had without MAJOR changes to the design, specifically the slpx() stuff needs to be replaced with critical sections protected by a mutex mechanism. I played around with techniques for allowing both CPUs into the kernel at the same time with the current splx() design but it appears to be a loosing proposition. My suggestion (assumming no new major push REAL SOON) is to remove the SMP support from 3.0 and make a release out of it (when all other things are ready). Then continue SMP efforts in 4.0 At the very least the experimental things defined in smptests.h need to either be incorporated as default (most everything but PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4), or removed entirely ie. PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4. These are my above mentioned attempts to allow both CPUs in simultaniously. Its ugly code, and will never be 'right'. -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 09:04:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09692 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09673 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:04:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09830; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:04:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd009768; Mon Mar 2 10:04:06 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14250; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:04:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803021704.KAA14250@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 To: roberto@eurocontrol.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:04:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980302172959.38382@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Mar 2, 98 05:29:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Running a CURRENT kernel with the softupdate code of 2/24/98 leads to the > following panic. It is always failing at the same place in > "softdep_setup_allocindir_page". > > Now, it is procmail that trigger the problem although the filesystem in > question is not very heavily used. > > /dev/sd1s1h on /home (local, noatime, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 367) Is this always, or only "mostly", repeatable? I would seriously suggest that you turn off "noatime", and try to repeat this again. The "noatime" is probably something which should be disallowed with soft updates; I'm not sire, but I believe the dependency resolvers make certain assumptions about the relationship graphs, and that might include subgraph vector length (which you would change by disabling the atime change node creation). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 09:16:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11136 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:16:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from atena.eurocontrol.fr (atena.uneec.eurocontrol.fr [147.196.69.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA11129 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:16:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@eurocontrol.fr) Received: by atena.eurocontrol.fr; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA29150; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:16:26 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr (8.8.8/caerdonn-1.4.2/nospam) id SAA01632; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:16:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-Id: <19980302181625.19368@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:16:25 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 References: <19980302172959.38382@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> <199803021704.KAA14250@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803021704.KAA14250@usr02.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 05:04:04PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Terry Lambert: > Is this always, or only "mostly", repeatable? Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current and running/compiling some programs. That's too random to get a clear picture. > I would seriously suggest that you turn off "noatime", and try to repeat > this again. I've begun to suspect this a bit and all the FS with softupdate don't have "noatime" anymore. "noatime" seems much less interesting with softupdates now anyway. Thanks for the tip. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- Eurocontrol EEC/TS -=- Ollivier.Robert@eurocontrol.fr FreeBSD caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr 3.0-CURRENT #5: Tue Apr 22 14:57:00 CEST 1997 roberto@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr:/src/src/sys/compile/CAERDONN2 i386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 09:29:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12774 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12765 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25803; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:29:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd025694; Mon Mar 2 10:29:21 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA15934; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:29:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803021729.KAA15934@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: smp@csn.net (Steve Passe) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:29:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, toor@dyson.iquest.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803021654.JAA28772@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> from "Steve Passe" at Mar 2, 98 09:54:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing > > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support, > > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > > > primary or not. > > > > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and > > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc.. > > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad. > > I know this probably won't be good news for most, but I don't see SMP being > in 3.0: I think if this happens, it would be a good idea to relabel the 3.x branch to be the 2.3 or 2.x (x>2) branch, and reserve 3.0. The point of major revision numbers is major revision. I, for one would not be comfortable taking FreeBSD into the end-of-cycle version range (4.x+). Down that road lies madness and "FreeBSD II". > The state it is in now is NOT release quality. I don't think there is much > finer grained locking to be had without MAJOR changes to the design, > specifically the slpx() stuff needs to be replaced with critical sections > protected by a mutex mechanism. I played around with techniques for > allowing both CPUs into the kernel at the same time with the current > splx() design but it appears to be a loosing proposition. I've been working on a fine grained intention mode lock manager with deadlock avoidance and cycle detection. John Dyson has seen the whiteboard design for the thing. I *don't* think the FreeBSD kernel code is amenable to anything less (such as Djikstra's "Banker's Algorithm") because of the need to hold state over more than one level of function calls. It's likely that it would take a serious redesign of the kernel itself to be able to support a radically different approach, like resource preemption (sorry RealTime fans). You simply can't back the state far enough out for it to work. My research code will unfortunately *not* be baked in time for the aggressive schedule for 3.0 which has been proposed. If someone else who can do mathematical programming wants to take up the torch, I can send my internal design discussons (yes, I document it when I talk to myself 8-)). You should have at least a working undestanding of Linear Algebra and Group Theory (math proceeds from Group Theory to Tensor Calculus to Graph Theory) and/or Clifford Algebra's (from which you can get geometric soloutions without Tensors). If you know what "Warshal's Algorithm" and "A Hamiltonian cycle" are, then you probably qualify. Unfortunately, the best non-heavy-math soloution is O(N^3) for N locks; this is simply not good enough for fine grain locking (which will result in a larger number of locks being needed, the finer the grain). > My suggestion (assumming no new major push REAL SOON) is to remove the > SMP support from 3.0 and make a release out of it (when all other things > are ready). Then continue SMP efforts in 4.0 At the very least the > experimental things defined in smptests.h need to either be incorporated > as default (most everything but PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4), or removed > entirely ie. PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4. These are my above mentioned attempts > to allow both CPUs in simultaniously. Its ugly code, and will never > be 'right'. I think whatever is released should support low granularity SMP, at the very least. I would be *very* unhappy with having to bump the version number to 4.0 in the process (it implies too long a time frame, and it's frankly too large a number to allow the software to appear trustworthy, IMO. Cv: SVR4). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 09:37:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13583 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from taliesin.cs.ucla.edu (Taliesin-cip.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.19.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13578 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:37:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottm@mordred.cs.ucla.edu) Received: (qmail 3162 invoked from network); 2 Mar 1998 17:37:05 -0000 Received: from mordred.cs.ucla.edu (131.179.48.34) by taliesin.cs.ucla.edu with SMTP; 2 Mar 1998 17:37:05 -0000 Received: (from scottm@localhost) by mordred.cs.ucla.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00224 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:37:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottm) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:37:16 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Michel Message-Id: <199803021737.JAA00224@mordred.cs.ucla.edu> To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Really cool feature! Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As of this morning's cvsup (at or about 9:00am, PST), the really cool current feature is FreeBSD w/o keyboard. On bootstrap, everything comes up as it should, except the keyboard no longer accepts anything. I've turned xdm off, but to no avail. The only way out of this is a hard reset. What would the useful flags be to debug this one? This is the dmesg from the running kernel -- nothing else has changed -- same config file for the current cvsup as this one: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copyright (c) 1992-1998 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Wed Feb 25 12:03:48 PST 1998 root@mordred.cs.ucla.edu:/usr/src/sys/compile/MORDRED Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193169 Hz cost 2930 ns Timecounter "TSC" frequency 99715295 Hz cost 324 ns CPU: Pentium (99.72-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 Features=0x1bf real memory = 50331648 (49152K bytes) avail memory = 46440448 (45352K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x02 on pci0.0.0 chip1: rev 0x02 on pci0.7.0 vga0: rev 0x03 int a irq 11 on pci0.15.0 Probing for PnP devices: Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 at 0x280-0x29f irq 10 maddr 0xcc000 msize 16384 on isa ed0: address 00:00:c0:86:e3:b7, type SMC8216/SMC8216C (16 bit) lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface psm0 at 0x60-0x64 irq 12 on motherboard psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A pcm0 at 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x15 on isa wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 flags 0xe0ffe0ff on isa wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): , 32-bit, multi-block-8, sleep-hack wd0: 1039MB (2128896 sectors), 2112 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S wdc0: unit 1 (wd1): , 32-bit, multi-block-16, sleep-hack wd1: 2441MB (4999680 sectors), 4960 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S wdc1 at 0x170-0x177 irq 15 on isa fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface joy0 at 0x201 on isa joy0: joystick Intel Pentium F00F detected, installing workaround WARNING: / was not properly dismounted. Start pid=2 Start pid=3 Start pid=4 Config file: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ machine "i386" ident MORDRED maxusers 10 config kernel root on wd0 cpu "I586_CPU" # aka Pentium(tm) options "MAXDSIZ=(256*1024*1024)" options "DFLDSIZ=(256*1024*1024)" options "COMPAT_43" options SYSVSHM options SYSVSEM options SYSVMSG options "MD5" options DDB options KTRACE #kernel tracing options DIAGNOSTIC options PERFMON options UCONSOLE options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor options INET #Internet communications protocols pseudo-device loop pseudo-device ether #Generic Ethernet pseudo-device bpfilter 4 #Berkeley packet filter options MROUTING # Multicast routing options FFS #Fast filesystem options NFS #NFS #options NFS_NOSERVER options MFS #Memory filesystem options "CD9660" #ISO 9660 filesystem options MSDOSFS #MS DOS File System options PROCFS #Process filesystem options NSWAPDEV=20 options "CD9660_ROOTDELAY=20" pseudo-device pty 16 #Pseudo ttys - can go as high as 256 pseudo-device speaker #Play IBM BASIC-style noises out your speaker pseudo-device gzip #Exec gzipped a.out's pseudo-device vn #Vnode driver (turns a file into a device) controller isa0 options BOUNCE_BUFFERS # The syscons console driver (sco color console compatible) - default. device sc0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector scintr options MAXCONS=16 # number of virtual consoles #options SLOW_VGA # do byte-wide i/o's to TS and GDC regs device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" iosiz 0x0 flags 0x0 irq 13 vector npxintr controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 flags 0xe0ffe0ff vector wdintr disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0 disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1 controller wdc1 at isa? port "IO_WD2" bio irq 15 vector wdintr options ATAPI #Enable ATAPI support for IDE bus #options ATAPI_STATIC #Don't do it as an LKM #device wcd0 controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 device lpt0 at isa? port? tty irq 7 vector lptintr device psm0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" conflicts tty irq 12 vector psmintr device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" tty irq 4 vector siointr device sio1 at isa? port "IO_COM2" tty irq 3 vector siointr device ed0 at isa? port 0x280 net irq 10 iomem 0xcc000 vector edintr # controller snd0 # device sb0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 vector sbintr # device sbxvi0 at isa? drq 5 # device sbmidi0 at isa? port 0x300 # device opl0 at isa? port 0x388 controller pnp0 device pcm0 at isa? port? tty irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x0015 vector pcmintr # options APM_IDLE_CPU # Tell APM to idle rather than halt'ing the cpu # device apm0 at isa? # options APM_BROKEN_STATCLOCK device joy0 at isa? port "IO_GAME" controller pci0 options CLK_CALIBRATION_LOOP options "CLK_USE_I8254_CALIBRATION" options CLK_USE_TSC_CALIBRATION options NMBCLUSTERS=512 options NBUF=512 options COMPAT_LINUX options "EXT2FS" options KBD_MAXRETRY=4 options KBD_MAXWAIT=6 options KBD_RESETDELAY=201 options MSGMNB=2049 options MSGMNI=41 options MSGSEG=2049 options MSGSSZ=16 options MSGTQL=41 options SEMMAP=31 options SEMMNI=11 options SEMMNS=61 options SEMMNU=31 options SEMMSL=61 options SEMOPM=101 options SEMUME=11 options SHOW_BUSYBUFS # List buffers that prevent root unmount options SHMALL=1025 options "SHMMAX=(SHMMAXPGS*PAGE_SIZE+1)" options SHMMAXPGS=1025 options SHMMIN=2 options SHMMNI=33 options SHMSEG=9 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 10:46:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20045 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:46:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from krabi.mbp.ee (root@krabi.mbp.ee [194.204.12.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA20003 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:45:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@krabi.mbp.ee) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by krabi.mbp.ee (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA24404 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:45:28 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:45:27 +0200 (EET) From: Superuser To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SMP-GENERIC Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi I just found out that SMP-GENERIC does not have: options SYSVSHM which GENERIC has... are there any problems with SYSVSHM and SMP ? _____________ Lauri Laupmaa mauri@mbp.ee To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 11:13:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25077 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:13:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25071 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:13:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13112; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:10:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803021910.LAA13112@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: John Saunders cc: Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:01:45 +1100." <34FA4B49.4747FC37@scitec.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:10:38 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Mike Smith wrote: > > > John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > It seems that we'll have ELF support, > > > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > > > > primary or not. > > > > > > Has anyone decided what the aout to elf upgrade procedure will be? > > > > That's likely to come out of the bruises that the 'early adopters' are > > going to wear, but I would say that the initial approach will be "set > > BINFORMAT=elf and rebuild the world". > > You might want to be running a kernel that groks ELF with ELF shared > libraries installed before you do a make world. Otherwise I can see a > point where you overwrite an a.out program that is needed to complete > the make world. The kernel already groks ELF, so that's not an issue. The buildworld target parks everything in the obj directory before starting the installation sweep, and it installs in the order: tools, includes, libraries, stuff The only real room for a gotcha is when the new make(1) and friends are installed in the tools pass. This could be comfortably handled by an ldconfig at the start of the installworld pass that added the libraries in the obj tree. Taking them out of the cache again is left as an exercise for the developer (reboot is probably easiest). > Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both > executable formats? Which planet have you been on for the last year or so? Even 2.2 will run ELF binaries. 8) > Will the make world build both ELF and a.out > shared libraries? Or will a.out basically die off? a.out will be supported with a compat-22 distribution, and the tools will still support it completely, but I would anticipate it being killed as quickly as possible. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 11:19:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25773 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25766 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:19:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA25023; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:19:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA21545; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:18:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:18:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199803021918.MAA21545@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Mike Smith Cc: John Saunders , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803021910.LAA13112@dingo.cdrom.com> References: <34FA4B49.4747FC37@scitec.com.au> <199803021910.LAA13112@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > You might want to be running a kernel that groks ELF with ELF shared > > libraries installed before you do a make world. Otherwise I can see a > > point where you overwrite an a.out program that is needed to complete > > the make world. > > The kernel already groks ELF, so that's not an issue. Shared ELF libraries with and ld.so is still necessary. > > Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both > > executable formats? > > Which planet have you been on for the last year or so? Even 2.2 will > run ELF binaries. 8) Except for the shared loader, it understands them. We still don't have one that understands ELF libraries *except* from other OS's. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 11:50:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29374 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:50:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isbalham.ist.co.uk (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29367 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:50:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham.ist.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.4) with UUCP id TAA21750 for FreeBSD.ORG!current; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:48:51 GMT Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:40:04 GMT X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803021049.EAA17372@shrimp.dataplex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:41:04 +0000 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG From: Bob Bishop Subject: Re: ctm-mail src-cur.3271.gz 1/34 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >CTM_MAIL BEGIN src-cur.3271.gz 1 34 OK, who touched the world? -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 12:02:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01064 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:02:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01059 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:02:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13358; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:59:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803021959.LAA13358@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Nate Williams cc: Mike Smith , John Saunders , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:18:57 MST." <199803021918.MAA21545@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:59:56 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both > > > executable formats? > > > > Which planet have you been on for the last year or so? Even 2.2 will > > run ELF binaries. 8) > > Except for the shared loader, it understands them. We still don't have > one that understands ELF libraries *except* from other OS's. Sure, but the shared loader is a feature of the libraries, not the kernel. If/when we have backwards-shared-ELF support, there'll be a loader for them. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 12:03:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01212 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:03:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from miro.bestweb.net (miro.bestweb.net [209.94.100.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01207 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:03:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aryder@bestweb.net) Received: from monet.bestweb.net (aryder@monet.bestweb.net [209.94.100.120]) by miro.bestweb.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA27917; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:01:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:02:58 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Ryder To: John Kelly cc: Amancio Hasty , "John S. Dyson" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <35042665.32332699@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Perl 5.004, gcc 2.7.2.3 (how is 2.8.0?) --- Andrew Ryder aryder@bestweb.net BestWeb Support Team support@bestweb.net "New Yorks Best Internet Service Provider" www.bestweb.net On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 19:20:49 -0800, Amancio Hasty > wrote: > > >Curious for what do you need 3.0 current? > > SMP and new PPPD 2.3.1. Reportedly better VM performance will be nice > to have too. > > -- > Browser war over, Mozilla now free. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 12:25:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02982 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:25:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02975 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:25:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA25522; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:25:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA22036; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:25:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:25:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199803022025.NAA22036@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Mike Smith Cc: Nate Williams , John Saunders , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803021959.LAA13358@dingo.cdrom.com> References: <199803021918.MAA21545@mt.sri.com> <199803021959.LAA13358@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > Is 3.0 going to be like Linux and understand both > > > > executable formats? > > > > > > Which planet have you been on for the last year or so? Even 2.2 will > > > run ELF binaries. 8) > > > > Except for the shared loader, it understands them. We still don't have > > one that understands ELF libraries *except* from other OS's. > > Sure, but the shared loader is a feature of the libraries, not the > kernel. If/when we have backwards-shared-ELF support, there'll be a > loader for them. True, but we can build shared libraries/binaries now, and we don't (yet) have a shared loader for them. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 12:35:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04827 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:35:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gjp.erols.com (alex-va-n008c243.moon.jic.com [206.156.18.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04822 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:35:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) Received: from gjp.erols.com (localhost.erols.com [127.0.0.1]) by gjp.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12250; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:35:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) To: Superuser cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: SMP-GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:45:27 +0200." Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:35:00 -0500 Message-ID: <12243.888870900@gjp.erols.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Superuser wrote in message ID : > I just found out that SMP-GENERIC does not have: > options SYSVSHM > which GENERIC has... are there any problems with SYSVSHM and SMP ? I'm running that at home and haven't had any problems attributable to it so far. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:18:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14890 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shadow.worldbank.org (shadow.worldbank.org [138.220.104.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14874 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:18:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adhir@worldbank.org) Received: from localhost (adhir@localhost) by shadow.worldbank.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02135 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:18:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adhir@worldbank.org) X-Authentication-Warning: shadow.worldbank.org: adhir owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:18:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Alok K. Dhir" To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Luigi's sound driver... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ...fails on -current supped/made as of March 2, 1998 @ 4pm. Any programs that try to use sound lock up the entire syste, requiring a hard reset. The driver was working fine on the same system made as of mid February. I'm guessing the latest VM changes (last couple of days) probably threw something out of whack. Al To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:23:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16406 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:23:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ix.netcom.com (sil-wa5-09.ix.netcom.com [206.214.137.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16354 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from tomdean@localhost) by ix.netcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00313; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:22:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:22:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803022122.NAA00313@ix.netcom.com> From: Thomas Dean To: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <9803021656.AA17790@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> (message from Jean-Marc Zucconi on Mon, 2 Mar 98 17:56:19 +0100) Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG gdb works. Since my last e-mail, I did: cvsup current-supfile make -j4 world cd /sys/i386/conf config KERNEL-SMP # my config file (SMP kernel) cd ../../compile/KERNEL-SMP make clean make depend make make install shutdown -r now cc -g hello.c -o hello gdb hello b main r s s c quit and, everything worked. Did you do all these steps? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:34:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19090 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:34:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shadow.worldbank.org (shadow.worldbank.org [138.220.104.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19001 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:33:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adhir@worldbank.org) Received: from localhost (adhir@localhost) by shadow.worldbank.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00316 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:33:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adhir@worldbank.org) X-Authentication-Warning: shadow.worldbank.org: adhir owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:33:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Alok K. Dhir" To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Luigi's sound driver... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I should have provided more info. This is on a Dell Workstation 400 with two 300Mhz PIIs, and 246Mb of RAM. My kernel config file follows the quoted message... Thx On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 adhir@worldbank.org wrote: > ...fails on -current supped/made as of March 2, 1998 @ 4pm. Any programs > that try to use sound lock up the entire syste, requiring a hard reset. > > The driver was working fine on the same system made as of mid February. > I'm guessing the latest VM changes (last couple of days) probably threw > something out of whack. > > Al > # # LINT -- config file for checking all the sources, tries to pull in # as much of the source tree as it can. # # $Id: LINT,v 1.396 1998/01/26 06:33:48 julian Exp $ # # NB: You probably don't want to try running a kernel built from this # file. Instead, you should start from GENERIC, and add options from # this file as required. # # # This directive is mandatory; it defines the architecture to be # configured for; in this case, the 386 family based IBM-PC and # compatibles. # machine "i386" # # This is the ``identification'' of the kernel. Usually this should # be the same as the name of your kernel. # ident SHADOW # # The `maxusers' parameter controls the static sizing of a number of # internal system tables by a complicated formula defined in param.c. # maxusers 64 # # Certain applications can grow to be larger than the 128M limit # that FreeBSD initially imposes. Below are some options to # allow that limit to grow to 256MB, and can be increased further # with changing the parameters. MAXDSIZ is the maximum that the # limit can be set to, and the DFLDSIZ is the default value for # the limit. You might want to set the default lower than the # max, and explicitly set the maximum with a shell command for processes # that regularly exceed the limit like INND. # options "MAXDSIZ=(256*1024*1024)" options "DFLDSIZ=(256*1024*1024)" # When this is set, be extra conservative in various parts of the kernel # and choose functionality over speed (on the widest variety of systems). #options FAILSAFE # This allows you to actually store this configuration file into # the kernel binary itself, where it may be later read by saying: # strings /kernel | grep ^___ | sed -e 's/^___//' > MYKERNEL # options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel # # This directive defines a number of things: # - The compiled kernel is to be called `kernel' # - The root filesystem might be on partition wd0a # - Crash dumps will be written to wd0b, if possible. Specifying the # dump device here is not recommended. Use dumpon(8). # config kernel root on sd0 ##################################################################### # SMP OPTIONS: # # SMP enables building of a Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel. # APIC_IO enables the use of the IO APIC for Symmetric I/O. # NCPU sets the number of CPUs, defaults to 2. # NBUS sets the number of busses, defaults to 4. # NAPIC sets the number of IO APICs on the motherboard, defaults to 1. # NINTR sets the total number of INTs provided by the motherboard. # # Notes: # # An SMP kernel will ONLY run on an Intel MP spec. qualified motherboard. # # Be sure to disable 'cpu "I386_CPU"' && 'cpu "I486_CPU"' for SMP kernels. # # Check the 'Rogue SMP hardware' section to see if additional options # are required by your hardware. # # Mandatory: options SMP # Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel options APIC_IO # Symmetric (APIC) I/O # Optional (built-in defaults will work in most cases): options NCPU=2 # number of CPUs options NBUS=3 # number of busses options NAPIC=1 # number of IO APICs options NINTR=37 # number of INTs # # Rogue SMP hardware: # # Bridged PCI cards: # # The MP tables of most of the current generation MP motherboards # do NOT properly support bridged PCI cards. To use one of these # cards you should refer to ??? ##################################################################### # CPU OPTIONS # # You must specify at least one CPU (the one you intend to run on); # deleting the specification for CPUs you don't need to use may make # parts of the system run faster. This is especially true removing # I386_CPU. # #cpu "I386_CPU" #cpu "I486_CPU" cpu "I586_CPU" # aka Pentium(tm) cpu "I686_CPU" # aka Pentium Pro(tm) # # # NO_F00F_HACK disables the hack that prevents Pentiums (and ONLY # Pentiums) from locking up when a LOCK CMPXCHG8B instruction is # executed. This should be included for ALL kernels that won't run # on a Pentium. options "NO_F00F_HACK" # # A math emulator is mandatory if you wish to run on hardware which # does not have a floating-point processor. Pick either the original, # bogus (but freely-distributable) math emulator, or a much more # fully-featured but GPL-licensed emulator taken from Linux. # #options MATH_EMULATE #Support for x87 emulation # Don't enable both of these in a real config. #options GPL_MATH_EMULATE #Support for x87 emulation via #new math emulator ##################################################################### # COMPATIBILITY OPTIONS # # Implement system calls compatible with 4.3BSD and older versions of # FreeBSD. You probably do NOT want to remove this as much current code # still relies on the 4.3 emulation. # options "COMPAT_43" # # Allow user-mode programs to manipulate their local descriptor tables. # This option is required for the WINE Windows(tm) emulator, and is # not used by anything else (that we know of). # options USER_LDT #allow user-level control of i386 ldt # # These three options provide support for System V Interface # Definition-style interprocess communication, in the form of shared # memory, semaphores, and message queues, respectively. # options SYSVSHM options SYSVSEM options SYSVMSG # # This option includes a MD5 routine in the kernel, this is used for # various authentication and privacy uses. # options "MD5" # # Allow processes to switch to vm86 mode, as well as enabling direct # user-mode access to the I/O port space. This option is necessary for # the doscmd emulator to run. # options "VM86" ##################################################################### # DEBUGGING OPTIONS # # Enable the kernel debugger. # #options DDB # # Don't drop into DDB for a panic. Intended for unattended operation # where you may want to drop to DDB from the console, but still want # the machine to recover from a panic # #options DDB_UNATTENDED # # If using GDB remote mode to debug the kernel, there's a non-standard # extension to the remote protocol that can be used to use the serial # port as both the debugging port and the system console. It's non- # standard and you're on your own if you enable it. See also the # "remotechat" variables in the FreeBSD specific version of gdb. # #options GDB_REMOTE_CHAT # # KTRACE enables the system-call tracing facility ktrace(2). # options KTRACE #kernel tracing # # The DIAGNOSTIC option is used in a number of source files to enable # extra sanity checking of internal structures. This support is not # enabled by default because of the extra time it would take to check # for these conditions, which can only occur as a result of # programming errors. # #options DIAGNOSTIC # # PERFMON causes the driver for Pentium/Pentium Pro performance counters # to be compiled. See perfmon(4) for more information. # options PERFMON # XXX - this doesn't belong here. # Allow ordinary users to take the console - this is useful for X. options UCONSOLE # XXX - this doesn't belong here either options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor #options USERCONFIG_BOOT #imply -c and parse info area options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor ##################################################################### # NETWORKING OPTIONS # # Protocol families: # Only the INET (Internet) family is officially supported in FreeBSD. # Source code for the NS (Xerox Network Service) is provided for amusement # value. # options INET #Internet communications protocols options IPX #IPX/SPX communications protocols #options IPXIP #IPX in IP encapsulation (not available) #options IPTUNNEL #IP in IPX encapsulation (not available) #options NETATALK #Appletalk communications protocols # Network interfaces: # The `loop' pseudo-device is MANDATORY when networking is enabled. # The `ether' pseudo-device provides generic code to handle # Ethernets; it is MANDATORY when a Ethernet device driver is # configured. # The 'fddi' pseudo-device provides generic code to support FDDI. # The `sppp' pseudo-device serves a similar role for certain types # of synchronous PPP links (like `cx', `ar'). # The `sl' pseudo-device implements the Serial Line IP (SLIP) service. # The `ppp' pseudo-device implements the Point-to-Point Protocol. # The `bpfilter' pseudo-device enables the Berkeley Packet Filter. Be # aware of the legal and administrative consequences of enabling this # option. The number of devices determines the maximum number of # simultaneous BPF clients programs runnable. # The `disc' pseudo-device implements a minimal network interface, # which throws away all packets sent and never receives any. It is # included for testing purposes. # The `tun' pseudo-device implements the User Process PPP (iijppp) # # The PPP_BSDCOMP option enables support for compress(1) style entire # packet compression, the PPP_DEFLATE is for zlib/gzip style compression. # PPP_FILTER enables code for filtering the ppp data stream and selecting # events for resetting the demand dial activity timer - requires bpfilter. # See pppd(8) for more details. # pseudo-device ether #Generic Ethernet #pseudo-device fddi #Generic FDDI pseudo-device sppp #Generic Synchronous PPP pseudo-device loop #Network loopback device pseudo-device bpfilter 4 #Berkeley packet filter pseudo-device disc #Discard device #pseudo-device tun 1 #Tunnel driver (user process ppp(8)) pseudo-device sl 2 #Serial Line IP pseudo-device ppp 2 #Point-to-point protocol options PPP_BSDCOMP #PPP BSD-compress support options PPP_DEFLATE #PPP zlib/deflate/gzip support options PPP_FILTER #enable bpf filtering (needs bpfilter) # # Internet family options: # # TCP_COMPAT_42 causes the TCP code to emulate certain bugs present in # 4.2BSD. This option should not be used unless you have a 4.2BSD # machine and TCP connections fail. # # MROUTING enables the kernel multicast packet forwarder, which works # with mrouted(8). # # IPFIREWALL enables support for IP firewall construction, in # conjunction with the `ipfw' program. IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE sends # logged packets to the system logger. IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE_LIMIT # limits the number of times a matching entry can be logged. # # WARNING: IPFIREWALL defaults to a policy of "deny ip from any to any" # and if you do not add other rules during startup to allow access, # YOU WILL LOCK YOURSELF OUT. It is suggested that you set firewall=open # in /etc/rc.conf when first enabling this feature, then refining the # firewall rules in /etc/rc.firewall after you've tested that the new kernel # feature works properly. # # IPFIREWALL_DEFAULT_TO_ACCEPT causes the default rule (at boot) to # allow everything. Use with care, if a cracker can crash your # firewall machine, they can get to your protected machines. However, # if you are using it as an as-needed filter for specific problems as # they arise, then this may be for you. Changing the default to 'allow' # means that you won't get stuck if the kernel and /sbin/ipfw binary get # out of sync. # # IPDIVERT enables the divert IP sockets, used by ``ipfw divert'' # # TCPDEBUG is undocumented. # #options "TCP_COMPAT_42" #emulate 4.2BSD TCP bugs #options MROUTING # Multicast routing #options IPFIREWALL #firewall #options IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE #print information about # dropped packets #options "IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE_LIMIT=100" #limit verbosity #options IPFIREWALL_DEFAULT_TO_ACCEPT #allow everything by default #options IPDIVERT #divert sockets #options TCPDEBUG ##################################################################### # FILESYSTEM OPTIONS # # Only the root, /usr, and /tmp filesystems need be statically # compiled; everything else will be automatically loaded at mount # time. (Exception: the UFS family---FFS, MFS, and LFS---cannot # currently be demand-loaded.) Some people still prefer to statically # compile other filesystems as well. # # NB: The LFS, PORTAL, and UNION filesystems are known to be buggy, # and WILL panic your system if you attempt to do anything with them. # They are included here as an incentive for some enterprising soul to # sit down and fix them. # # One of these is mandatory: options FFS #Fast filesystem options NFS #Network File System # The rest are optional: # options NFS_NOSERVER #Disable the NFS-server code. options "CD9660" #ISO 9660 filesystem options FDESC #File descriptor filesystem options KERNFS #Kernel filesystem #options LFS #Log filesystem options MFS #Memory File System options MSDOSFS #MS DOS File System #options NULLFS #NULL filesystem #options PORTAL #Portal filesystem options PROCFS #Process filesystem #options UMAPFS #UID map filesystem #options UNION #Union filesystem options "CD9660_ROOT" #CD-ROM usable as root device options FFS_ROOT #FFS usable as root device #options LFS_ROOT #LFS usable as root device options NFS_ROOT #NFS usable as root device # This DEVFS is experimental but seems to work #options DEVFS #devices filesystem # Make space in the kernel for a MFS root filesystem. Define to the number # of kilobytes to reserve for the filesystem. #options MFS_ROOT=10 # Allow the MFS_ROOT code to load the MFS image from floppy if it is missing. #options MFS_AUTOLOAD # Allow this many swap-devices. options NSWAPDEV=5 # Disk quotas are supported when this option is enabled. If you # change the value of this option, you must do a `make clean' in your # kernel compile directory in order to get a working kernel. # #options QUOTA #enable disk quotas # Add more checking code to various filesystems #options NULLFS_DIAGNOSTIC #options KERNFS_DIAGNOSTIC #options UMAPFS_DIAGNOSTIC #options UNION_DIAGNOSTIC # In particular multi-session CD-Rs might require a huge amount of # time in order to "settle". If we are about mounting them as the # root f/s, we gotta wait a little. # # The number is supposed to be in seconds. #options "CD9660_ROOTDELAY=20" # Add some error checking code to the null_bypass routine # in the NULL filesystem ##options SAFETY ##################################################################### # SCSI DEVICES # SCSI DEVICE CONFIGURATION # The SCSI subsystem consists of the `base' SCSI code, a number of # high-level SCSI device `type' drivers, and the low-level host-adapter # device drivers. The host adapters are listed in the ISA and PCI # device configuration sections below. # # Beginning with FreeBSD 2.0.5 you can wire down your SCSI devices so # that a given bus, target, and LUN always come on line as the same # device unit. In earlier versions the unit numbers were assigned # in the order that the devices were probed on the SCSI bus. This # means that if you removed a disk drive, you may have had to rewrite # your /etc/fstab file, and also that you had to be careful when adding # a new disk as it may have been probed earlier and moved your device # configuration around. # This old behavior is maintained as the default behavior. The unit # assignment begins with the first non-wired down unit for a device # type. For example, if you wire a disk as "sd3" then the first # non-wired disk will be assigned sd4. # The syntax for wiring down devices is: # controller scbus0 at ahc0 # Single bus device # controller scbus1 at ahc1 bus 0 # Single bus device # controller scbus3 at ahc2 bus 0 # Twin bus device # controller scbus2 at ahc2 bus 1 # Twin bus device # disk sd0 at scbus0 target 0 unit 0 # disk sd1 at scbus3 target 1 # disk sd2 at scbus2 target 3 # tape st1 at scbus1 target 6 # device cd0 at scbus? # "units" (SCSI logical unit number) that are not specified are # treated as if specified as LUN 0. # All SCSI devices allocate as many units as are required. # The "unknown" device (uk? in pre-2.0.5) is now part of the base SCSI # configuration and doesn't have to be explicitly configured. controller scbus0 #base SCSI code device ch0 #SCSI media changers device sd0 #SCSI disks device st0 #SCSI tapes device cd0 #SCSI CD-ROMs device od0 #SCSI optical disk # The previous devices (ch, sd, st, cd) are recognized by config. # config doesn't (and shouldn't) know about these newer ones, # so we have to specify that they are on a SCSI bus with the "at scbus?" # clause. device worm0 at scbus? # SCSI worm #device pt0 at scbus? # SCSI processor type #device sctarg0 at scbus? # SCSI target # SCSI OPTIONS: # SCSIDEBUG: When defined enables debugging macros # NO_SCSI_SENSE: When defined disables sense descriptions (about 4k) # SCSI_REPORT_GEOMETRY: Always report disk geometry at boot up instead # of only when booting verbosely. #options SCSIDEBUG #options NO_SCSI_SENSE options SCSI_REPORT_GEOMETRY # Options for the `od' optical disk driver: # # If drive returns sense key as 0x02 with vendor specific additional # sense code (ASC) and additional sense code qualifier (ASCQ), or # illegal ASC and ASCQ. This cause an error (NOT READY) and retrying. # To suppress this, use the following option. # #options OD_BOGUS_NOT_READY # # For an automatic spindown, try this. Again, preferably as an # option in your config file. # WARNING! Use at your own risk. Joerg's ancient SONY SMO drive # groks it fine, while Shunsuke's Fujitsu chokes on it and times # out. # #options OD_AUTO_TURNOFF ##################################################################### # MISCELLANEOUS DEVICES AND OPTIONS # The `pty' device usually turns out to be ``effectively mandatory'', # as it is required for `telnetd', `rlogind', `screen', `emacs', and # `xterm', among others. pseudo-device pty 64 #Pseudo ttys - can go as high as 256 pseudo-device speaker #Play IBM BASIC-style noises out your speaker pseudo-device gzip #Exec gzipped a.out's pseudo-device vn #Vnode driver (turns a file into a device) pseudo-device snp 3 #Snoop device - to look at pty/vty/etc.. pseudo-device ccd 4 #Concatenated disk driver # These are only for watching for bitrot in old tty code. # broken #pseudo-device tb # These are only for watching for bitrot in old SCSI code. #pseudo-device su #scsi user #pseudo-device ssc #super scsi ##################################################################### # HARDWARE DEVICE CONFIGURATION # ISA and EISA devices: # EISA support is available for some device, so they can be auto-probed. # Micro Channel is not supported at all. # # Mandatory ISA devices: isa, npx # controller isa0 # # Options for `isa': # # AUTO_EOI_1 enables the `automatic EOI' feature for the master 8259A # interrupt controller. This saves about 0.7-1.25 usec for each interrupt. # This option breaks suspend/resume on some portables. # # AUTO_EOI_2 enables the `automatic EOI' feature for the slave 8259A # interrupt controller. This saves about 0.7-1.25 usec for each interrupt. # Automatic EOI is documented not to work for for the slave with the # original i8259A, but it works for some clones and some integrated # versions. # # BOUNCE_BUFFERS provides support for ISA DMA on machines with more # than 16 megabytes of memory. It doesn't hurt on other machines. # Some broken EISA and VLB hardware may need this, too. # # MAXMEM specifies the amount of RAM on the machine; if this is not # specified, FreeBSD will first read the amount of memory from the CMOS # RAM, so the amount of memory will initially be limited to 64MB or 16MB # depending on the BIOS. If the BIOS reports 64MB, a memory probe will # then attempt to detect the installed amount of RAM. If this probe # fails to detect >64MB RAM you will have to use the MAXMEM option. # The amount is in kilobytes, so for a machine with 128MB of RAM, it would # be 131072 (128 * 1024). # # TUNE_1542 enables the automatic ISA bus speed selection for the # Adaptec 1542 boards. Does not work for all boards, use it with caution. # # BROKEN_KEYBOARD_RESET disables the use of the keyboard controller to # reset the CPU for reboot. This is needed on some systems with broken # keyboard controllers. # # PAS_JOYSTICK_ENABLE enables the gameport on the ProAudio Spectrum options "AUTO_EOI_1" #options "AUTO_EOI_2" options BOUNCE_BUFFERS #options "MAXMEM=(128*1024)" #options "TUNE_1542" #options BROKEN_KEYBOARD_RESET #options PAS_JOYSTICK_ENABLE # Enable support for the kernel PLL to use an external PPS signal, # under supervision of [x]ntpd(8) # More info in ftp://ftp.udel.edu/pub/ntp/kernel.tar.Z #options PPS_SYNC # Enable PnP support in the kernel. This allows you to automaticly # attach to PnP cards for drivers that support it and allows you to # configure cards from USERCONFIG. See pnp(4) for more info. controller pnp0 # The syscons console driver (sco color console compatible) - default. device sc0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector scintr options MAXCONS=12 # number of virtual consoles #options SLOW_VGA # do byte-wide i/o's to TS and GDC regs #options "STD8X16FONT" # Compile font in #makeoptions "STD8X16FONT"="cp850" options SC_HISTORY_SIZE=500 # number of history buffer lines # # `flags' for sc0: # 0x01 Use a 'visual' bell # 0x02 Use a 'blink' cursor # 0x04 Use a 'underline' cursor # 0x06 Use a 'blinking underline' (destructive) cursor # 0x08 Force detection of keyboard, else we always assume a keyboard # 0x10 Old-style (XT) keyboard support, useful for older ThinkPads # 0x20 Don't reset keyboard, useful for some newer ThinkPads # # The Numeric Processing eXtension driver. This should be configured if # your machine has a math co-processor, unless the coprocessor is very # buggy. If it is not configured then you *must* configure math emulation # (see above). If both npx0 and emulation are configured, then only npx0 # is used (provided it works). device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" iosiz 0x0 flags 0x0 irq 13 vector npxintr # # `flags' for npx0: # 0x01 don't use the npx registers to optimize bcopy # 0x02 don't use the npx registers to optimize bzero # 0x04 don't use the npx registers to optimize copyin or copyout. # The npx registers are normally used to optimize copying and zeroing when # all of the following conditions are satisfied: # "I586_CPU" is an option # the cpu is an i586 (perhaps not a Pentium) # the probe for npx0 succeeds # INT 16 exception handling works. # Then copying and zeroing using the npx registers is normally 30-100% faster. # The flags can be used to control cases where it doesn't work or is slower. # Setting them at boot time using userconfig works right (the optimizations # are not used until later in the bootstrap when npx0 is attached). # # # `iosiz' for npx0: # This can be used instead of the MAXMEM option to set the memory size. If # it is nonzero, then it overrides both the MAXMEM option and the memory # size reported by the BIOS. Setting it at boot time using userconfig takes # effect on the next reboot after the change has been recorded in the kernel # binary (the size is used early in the boot before userconfig has a chance # to change it). # # # Optional ISA and EISA devices: # # # SCSI host adapters: `aha', `aic', `bt', `nca' # # aha: Adaptec 154x # ahc: Adaptec 274x/284x/294x # aic: Adaptec 152x and sound cards using the Adaptec AIC-6360 (slow!) # bt: Most Buslogic controllers # nca: ProAudioSpectrum cards using the NCR 5380 or Trantor T130 # uha: UltraStore 14F and 34F # sea: Seagate ST01/02 8 bit controller (slow!) # wds: Western Digital WD7000 controller (no scatter/gather!). # # Note that the order is important in order for Buslogic cards to be # probed correctly. # controller aic0 at isa? port 0x340 bio irq 11 vector aicintr # ST-506, ESDI, and IDE hard disks: `wdc' and `wd' # # The flags fields are used to enable the multi-sector I/O and # the 32BIT I/O modes. The flags may be used in either the controller # definition or in the individual disk definitions. The controller # definition is supported for the boot configuration stuff. # # Each drive has a 16 bit flags value defined: # The low 8 bits are the maximum value for the multi-sector I/O, # where 0xff defaults to the maximum that the drive can handle. # The high bit of the 16 bit flags (0x8000) allows probing for # 32 bit transfers. Bit 14 (0x4000) enables a hack to wake # up powered-down laptop drives. Bit 13 (0x2000) allows # probing for PCI IDE DMA controllers, such as Intel's PIIX # south bridges. See the wd.4 man page. # # The flags field for the drives can be specified in the controller # specification with the low 16 bits for drive 0, and the high 16 bits # for drive 1. # e.g.: #controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 flags 0x00ff8004 vector wdintr # # specifies that drive 0 will be allowed to probe for 32 bit transfers and # a maximum multi-sector transfer of 4 sectors, and drive 1 will not be # allowed to probe for 32 bit transfers, but will allow multi-sector # transfers up to the maximum that the drive supports. # # If you are using a PCI controller that is not running in compatibility # mode (for example, it is a 2nd IDE PCI interface), then use config line(s) # such as: # #controller wdc2 at isa? port "0" bio irq ? flags 0xa0ffa0ff vector wdintr #disk wd4 at wdc2 drive 0 #disk wd5 at wdc2 drive 1 # #controller wdc3 at isa? port "0" bio irq ? flags 0xa0ffa0ff vector wdintr #disk wd6 at wdc3 drive 0 #disk wd7 at wdc3 drive 1 # # Note that the above config would be useful for a Promise card, when used # on a MB that already has a PIIX controller. Note the bogus irq and port # entries. These are automatically filled in by the IDE/PCI support. # controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 vector wdintr disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0 disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1 controller wdc1 at isa? port "IO_WD2" bio irq 15 vector wdintr disk wd2 at wdc1 drive 0 disk wd3 at wdc1 drive 1 # # Options for `wdc': # # CMD640 enables serializing access to primary and secondary channel # of the CMD640B IDE Chip. The serializing will only take place # if this option is set *and* the chip is probed by the pci-system. # #options "CMD640" #Enable work around for CMD640 h/w bug # # ATAPI enables the support for ATAPI-compatible IDE devices # options ATAPI #Enable ATAPI support for IDE bus options ATAPI_STATIC #Don't do it as an LKM # IDE CD-ROM driver - requires wdc controller and ATAPI option device wcd0 # IDE floppy driver - requires wdc controller and ATAPI option #device wfd0 # # Standard floppy disk controllers and floppy tapes: `fdc', `fd', and `ft' # controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr # # FDC_DEBUG enables floppy debugging. Since the debug output is huge, you # gotta turn it actually on by setting the variable fd_debug with DDB, # however. #options FDC_DEBUG # This option is undocumented on purpose. #options FDC_PRINT_BOGUS_CHIPTYPE # # Activate this line instead of the fdc0 line above if you happen to # have an Insight floppy tape. Probing them proved to be dangerous # for people with floppy disks only, so it's "hidden" behind a flag: #controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio flags 1 irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 #disk fd1 at fdc0 drive 1 #tape ft0 at fdc0 drive 2 # # Other standard PC hardware: `lpt', `mse', `psm', `sio', etc. # # lpt: printer port # lpt specials: # port can be specified as ?, this will cause the driver to scan # the BIOS port list; # the irq and vector clauses may be omitted, this # will force the port into polling mode. # mse: Logitech and ATI InPort bus mouse ports # psm: PS/2 mouse port [note: conflicts with sc0/vt0, thus "conflicts" keywd] # sio: serial ports (see sio(4)) device lpt0 at isa? port? tty irq 7 vector lptintr #device lpt1 at isa? port "IO_LPT3" tty irq 5 vector lptintr #device mse0 at isa? port 0x23c tty irq 5 vector mseintr device psm0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" conflicts tty irq 12 vector psmintr # # `flags' for psm: # 0x000R set resolution to R (1..4). Some MouseSystems PS/2 mice # require this value to be 4. # 0x00N0 set accelaration factor to N (1..15). # 0x0100 disable synchronization check. This replaces the option # PSM_CHECKSYNC in previous versions. # # Options for psm: ##options PSM_HOOKAPM #hook the APM resume event, useful #for some laptops #options PSM_RESETAFTERSUSPEND #reset the device at the resume event device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" tty flags 0x10 irq 4 vector siointr device sio1 at isa? port "IO_COM2" tty flags 0x10 irq 3 vector siointr #device sio2 at isa? port "IO_COM3" tty flags 0x10 irq 4 vector siointr # # `flags' for serial drivers that support consoles (only for sio now): # 0x10 enable console support for this unit. The other console flags # are ignored unless this is set. Enabling console support does # not make the unit the preferred console - boot with -h or set # the 0x20 flag for that. Currently, at most one unit can have # console support; the first one (in config file order) with # this flag set is preferred. Setting this flag for sio0 gives # the old behaviour. # 0x20 force this unit to be the console (unless there is another # higher priority console). This replaces the COMCONSOLE option. # 0x40 reserve this unit for low level console operations. Do not # # PnP `flags' (set via userconfig using pnp x flags y) # 0x1 disable probing of this device. Used to prevent your modem # from being attached as a PnP modem. # # Options for serial drivers that support consoles (only for sio now): #options BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER #a BREAK on a comconsole goes to #DDB, if available. #options CONSPEED=9600 #default speed for serial console (default 9600) # Options for sio: #options COM_ESP #code for Hayes ESP #options COM_MULTIPORT #code for some cards with shared IRQs #options DSI_SOFT_MODEM #code for DSI Softmodems #options "EXTRA_SIO=2" #number of extra sio ports to allocate # Other flags for sio that aren't documented in the man page. # 0x20000 enable hardware RTS/CTS and larger FIFOs. Only works for # ST16650A-compatible UARTs. # # Audio drivers: `snd', `sb', `pas', `gus', `pca' # # snd: Voxware sound support code # sb: SoundBlaster PCM - SoundBlaster, SB Pro, SB16, ProAudioSpectrum # css: Crystal Sound System (CSS 423x PnP) # opl: Yamaha OPL-2 and OPL-3 FM - SB, SB Pro, SB 16, ProAudioSpectrum # uart: stand-alone 6850 UART for MIDI # mpu: Roland MPU-401 stand-alone card # # Beware! The addresses specified below are also hard-coded in # i386/isa/sound/sound_config.h. If you change the values here, you # must also change the values in the include file. # # pcm: PCM audio through various sound cards. # # This is the work in progress from Luigi Rizzo. This has support for # CS423x based cards, OPTi931, SB16 PnP, GusPnP. For more information # about this driver, take a look at sys/i386/isa/snd/README. # # The flags of the device tells the device a bit more info about the # device that normally is obtained through the PnP interface. # bit 2..0 secondary DMA channel; # bit 4 set if the board uses two dma channels; # bit 15..8 board type, overrides autodetection; leave it # zero if don't know what to put in (and you don't, # since this is unsupported at the moment...). # # This driver will use the new PnP code if it's available. # # pca: PCM audio through your PC speaker # # The i386/isa/sound/sound.doc has more information. # Controls all sound devices #controller snd0 #device sb0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 vector sbintr #device css0 at isa? port 0x534 irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x08 vector adintr #device opl0 at isa? port 0x388 #device mpu0 at isa? port 0x330 #irq 6 drq 0 #device uart0 at isa? port 0x330 irq 5 vector "m6850intr" # Luigi's snd code device pcm0 at isa ? port? tty irq 7 drq 1 vector pcmintr # Not controlled by `snd' device pca0 at isa? port IO_TIMER1 tty # # Miscellaneous hardware: # # bktr: Bt848 capture boards (http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/HomeAuto/Bt848.html) #device qcam0 at isa? port "IO_LPT1" tty # enable tagged command queuing, which is a major performance win on # devices that support it (and controllers with enough SCB's) options AHC_TAGENABLE # enable SCB paging - See the ahc.4 man page options AHC_SCBPAGING_ENABLE # The aic7xxx driver will attempt to use memory mapped I/O for all PCI # controllers that have it configured only if this option is set. Unfortunately, # this doesn't work on some motherboards, which prevents it from being the # default. options AHC_ALLOW_MEMIO # PCI devices: # # The main PCI bus device is `pci'. It provides auto-detection and # configuration support for all devices on the PCI bus, using either # configuration mode defined in the PCI specification. # # The `ahc' device provides support for the Adaptec 29/3940(U)(W) # and motherboard based AIC7870/AIC7880 adapters. # # The `ncr' device provides support for the NCR 53C810 and 53C825 # self-contained SCSI host adapters. # # The `amd' device provides support for the Tekram DC-390 and 390T # SCSI host adapters, but is expected to work with any AMD 53c974 # PCI SCSI chip and the AMD Ethernet+SCSI Combo chip, after some # local patches were applied to the sources (that had originally # been written by Tekram and limited to work with their SCSI cards). # # The `de' device provides support for the Digital Equipment DC21040 # self-contained Ethernet adapter. # # The `fxp' device provides support for the Intel EtherExpress Pro/100B # PCI Fast Ethernet adapters. # # The `tx' device provides support for the SMC 9432TX cards. # # The `vx' device provides support for the 3Com 3C590 and 3C595 # early support # # The `fpa' device provides support for the Digital DEFPA PCI FDDI # adapter. pseudo-device fddi is also needed. # # The `meteor' device is a PCI video capture board. It can also have the # following options: # options METEOR_ALLOC_PAGES=xxx preallocate kernel pages for data entry # figure (ROWS*COLUMN*BYTES_PER_PIXEL*FRAME+PAGE_SIZE-1)/PAGE_SIZE # options METEOR_DEALLOC_PAGES remove all allocated pages on close(2) # options METEOR_DEALLOC_ABOVE=xxx remove all allocated pages above the # specified amount. If this value is below the allocated amount no action # taken # option METEOR_SYSTEM_DEFAULT={METEOR_PAL|METEOR_NTSC|METEOR_SECAM}, used # for initialization of fps routine when a signal is not present. # # The 'bktr' device is a PCI video capture board. It also has a TV tuner # on board. # controller pci0 controller ahc0 device de0 device fxp0 device vx0 #device bktr0 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:47:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21601 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:47:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21545 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:46:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01987; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:45:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:45:51 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: Bob Bishop cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ctm-mail src-cur.3271.gz 1/34 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Bob Bishop wrote: > >CTM_MAIL BEGIN src-cur.3271.gz 1 34 > > OK, who touched the world? John Polstra brought in the binutils from gcc. This is the ELF stuff, finally moving forward ... don't discourage him! > > > -- > Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 > rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:53:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23808 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:53:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23730 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:53:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11674; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:49:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karpen) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199803022149.WAA11674@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803020401.XAA04407@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 1, 98 11:01:51 pm" To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:49:14 +0100 (CET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to John S. Dyson: > Open Systems Networking said: > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing > > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support, > > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > > > primary or not. > > > > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and > > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc.. > > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad. Can't the current model with SMP be smoothed a bit, to be more of a release material, and we can at least have non-finegrained-locking SMP? I mean, SMP is the big thing for 3.0, and what if there has to be a lot of frobbing done before 3.1 comes out to make it finegrained? It's still nice to have at least the current SMP level available. It DOES help, after all, and even the fact that it doesn't ignore more CPUs completely might attract more people to buy SMP machines, and from there we draw new SMP hackers. IMHO. > I can't imagine having 3.0 ready before the middle of the year. IMO, > and not necessarily that of the rest -core, I think that the "last quarter" > is too long. Probably true. But there seems to be quite a lot in the pipe, and it's also kinda bad to role a release just before we get a lot of new stuff because people will see it as out of date before it's released. One thing I'm thinking about, and haven't seen much about lately is the new SLICE code and DEVFS code. Shouldn't this be pushed into 3.0 before the release cycle? That is, as quickly as possible? It seems it would mean a lot of cleaups, nicer interfaces, and some driver changes. The driver changes needed might be a good thing to get into 3.0. For commecrial interested with drivers, etc. Oh well... I'm rambling as usual. Any comments? /Mikael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 13:56:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25004 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:56:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shrimp.dataplex.net (shrimp.dataplex.net [208.2.87.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24978 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:56:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rkw@dataplex.net) Received: from [208.2.87.4] (user4.dataplex.net [208.2.87.4]) by shrimp.dataplex.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09022; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:56:02 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: rkw@mail.dataplex.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199803021049.EAA17372@shrimp.dataplex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:53:38 -0600 To: Bob Bishop From: Richard Wackerbarth Subject: Re: ctm-mail src-cur.3271.gz 1/34 Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:41 PM -0600 3/2/98, Bob Bishop wrote: >>CTM_MAIL BEGIN src-cur.3271.gz 1 34 > >OK, who touched the world? Check the cvs commit logs. Someone added the ELF binutils. Richard Wackerbarth To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:15:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28784 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:15:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28769 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmaddox@scsn.net) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.64]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA175 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:12:20 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA01167; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:15:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root) Message-ID: <19980302171544.21782@scsn.net> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:15:44 -0500 From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: MSDOSFS Broken(?) Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mail-Followup-To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD. This seems to characterize the problem: # ls -l /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 72417 Jan 30 16:22 /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC # file /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Rich Text Format data, version 1, ANSI # cat /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC cat: /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Argument list too long Compiled 'cat' with '-g', then: >cat> gdb ./cat GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc... (gdb) set args /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC (gdb) break raw_cat Breakpoint 1 at 0x17a8: file /usr/src/bin/cat/cat.c, line 245. (gdb) r Starting program: /usr/obj/usr/src/bin/cat/./cat /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC Breakpoint 1, raw_cat (rfd=3) at /usr/src/bin/cat/cat.c:245 245 wfd = fileno(stdout); (gdb) s 246 if (buf == NULL) { (gdb) 247 if (fstat(wfd, &sbuf)) (gdb) 249 bsize = MAX(sbuf.st_blksize, 1024); (gdb) 250 if ((buf = malloc((u_int)bsize)) == NULL) (gdb) 253 while ((nr = read(rfd, buf, bsize)) > 0) (gdb) 257 if (nr < 0) { (gdb) 258 warn("%s", filename); (gdb) cat: /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Argument list too long 259 rval = 1; (gdb) (gdb) p sbuf $1 = {st_dev = 8, st_ino = 6023, st_mode = 8592, st_nlink = 1, st_uid = 0, st_gid = 4, st_rdev = 1284, st_atimespec = {tv_sec = 888876298, tv_nsec = 0}, st_mtimespec = { tv_sec = 888876298, tv_nsec = 0}, st_ctimespec = {tv_sec = 888876298, tv_nsec = 0}, st_size = 0x0000000000000000, st_blocks = 0x0000000000000000, st_blksize = 65536, st_flags = 0, st_gen = 483370200, st_lspare = -266130324, st_qspare = { 0x00000005f2c54d00, 0xf01f996800000000}} (gdb) q What's wrong with this picture? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:35:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03037 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:35:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isbalham.ist.co.uk (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02989 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:34:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham.ist.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.4) with UUCP id WAA22934; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:33:27 GMT Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:33:57 GMT X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:34:56 +0000 To: Chuck Robey From: Bob Bishop Subject: Re: ctm-mail src-cur.3271.gz 1/34 Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 9:45 pm +0000 2/3/98, Chuck Robey wrote: >On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Bob Bishop wrote: > >> >CTM_MAIL BEGIN src-cur.3271.gz 1 34 >> >> OK, who touched the world? > >John Polstra brought in the binutils from gcc. This is the ELF stuff, >finally moving forward ... don't discourage him! Wouldn't dream of it - excellent news! -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:50:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05845 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:50:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05797 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:50:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14700; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:50:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803022149.WAA11674@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "Mar 2, 98 10:49:14 pm" To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:50:17 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikael Karpberg said: > According to John S. Dyson: > > Open Systems Networking said: > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing > > > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support, > > > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > > > > primary or not. > > > > > > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and > > > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc.. > > > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad. > > Can't the current model with SMP be smoothed a bit, to be more of a release > material, and we can at least have non-finegrained-locking SMP? I mean, > SMP is the big thing for 3.0, and what if there has to be a lot of frobbing > done before 3.1 comes out to make it finegrained? It's still nice to have > at least the current SMP level available. It DOES help, after all, and even > the fact that it doesn't ignore more CPUs completely might attract more > people to buy SMP machines, and from there we draw new SMP hackers. IMHO. > To make the kernel have fine-grained locking, it will be approx 6-12 man mos. These changes need to be made by people who are very knowledgeable about the entire kernel. These people are in great demand, and that would push 3.0 out into 1999. I am working on some changes to the kernel that will help SMP performance significantly, but they don't make our SMP "fine grained." This is indeed very very difficult work. > > Oh well... I'm rambling as usual. Any comments? > You *definitely* make very valid points, but 2.2.X is becoming too difficult to maintain, and people are too tempted to use -current (with negative consequences.) This is a difficult judgement call, and I don't think the decisions have been made final. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:52:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06327 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:52:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06274 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14706; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:51:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803022251.RAA14706@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: from Andrew Ryder at "Mar 2, 98 03:02:58 pm" To: aryder@bestweb.net (Andrew Ryder) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:51:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: jak@cetlink.net, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andrew Ryder said: > > Perl 5.004 > Yes!!! I hope the rest of -core sees this. This would be very good (or more correctly, not as embarassing as Perl 4.) > >, gcc 2.7.2.3 (how is 2.8.0?) > The tools people work on that stuff. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 14:53:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06777 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:53:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06723 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:53:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14717; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:53:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803022253.RAA14717@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Really cool feature! In-Reply-To: <199803021737.JAA00224@mordred.cs.ucla.edu> from Scott Michel at "Mar 2, 98 09:37:16 am" To: scottm@cs.ucla.edu (Scott Michel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:53:17 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Scott Michel said: > > As of this morning's cvsup (at or about 9:00am, PST), the really > cool current feature is FreeBSD w/o keyboard. On bootstrap, everything > comes up as it should, except the keyboard no longer accepts anything. > Excellent, it improves system throughput by ignoring the nasty keyboard interrupts :-). This is a really good idea!!! :-) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:11:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09662 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09657 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:11:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14774; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:11:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803021729.KAA15934@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 2, 98 05:29:16 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:11:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, toor@dyson.iquest.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert said: > > > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing > > > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support, > > > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be > > > > primary or not. > > > > > > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and > > > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc.. > > > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad. > > > > I know this probably won't be good news for most, but I don't see SMP being > > in 3.0: > > I think if this happens, it would be a good idea to relabel the 3.x > branch to be the 2.3 or 2.x (x>2) branch, and reserve 3.0. > We have already discussed this in -core (I was a proponent of 2.5.X), however now I believe that the right decision (due to lots of factors) is to call it 3.0. > > I think whatever is released should support low granularity SMP, at > the very least. I would be *very* unhappy with having to bump the > version number to 4.0 in the process (it implies too long a time frame, > and it's frankly too large a number to allow the software to appear > trustworthy, IMO. Cv: SVR4). > Well, think of it like this: 3.0 simple SMP. 3.1 much better SMP. 10.0 Terry SMP. :-). **.0 Terry BSD. :-). Actually, people, Terry does have really good ideas in this area. I think that we would profit from a kernel meeting (Terry, DG, me, and others (hopefully a few of our UK/European/OZ people also) who regularly work on structural issues.) Even if we don't adopt everything that Terry says, I found his talk to be very educational. Maybe not worth a trip overseas by itself, but perhaps it might be partial justification. (Unless we could get Terry to write a document that is intellegible at less than postdoc reading skills level. :-)). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:13:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10164 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10061 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:13:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13023; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:04:29 +0100 (CET) To: "John S. Dyson" cc: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:50:17 EST." <199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 00:04:28 +0100 Message-ID: <13021.888879868@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" writes: >To make the kernel have fine-grained locking, it will be approx 6-12 man >mos. These changes need to be made by people who are very knowledgeable abou >t >the entire kernel. These people are in great demand, and that would push 3.0 > out >into 1999. I doubt even that would be possible, unless somebody actually goes and offers a salary to about 5 or 6 of us heavy-duty people to do just this. I must say, that I belong to the school where we think that it may not actually pay off to go that far. I'm pretty sure that we would get a long way with a much more narrow scope of locks: * One lock for each device driver. To avoid rewriting the existing drivers, this could be done entirely in the generic code, with the few obvious exceptions of pty and other incestous pseudo-drivers. * One lock for the entire network stack * One lock per mountpoint * One lock for "the rest" (the smoking remains of our current giant lock. But since this is a pretty likely step on the way, it would be easy to determine if further performance is derived from going further, so I'm not standing on my soapbox arguing about this. >Mikael Karpberg said: >> Oh well... I'm rambling as usual. Any comments? You're rambling some perfectly valid points as usual :-) We're at the point where it would really be nice to be able to go tell the CEO "off to the bank you go, borrow some money for R&D, you may get them back in increased revenue later. We'll need $1M over the year. Small unmarked used notes would be best." Sponsors most welcome. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:14:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10730 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10695 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:14:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14780; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:14:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803022314.SAA14780@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803021654.JAA28772@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> from Steve Passe at "Mar 2, 98 09:54:58 am" To: smp@csn.net (Steve Passe) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:14:04 -0500 (EST) Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, toor@dyson.iquest.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Steve Passe said: > > My suggestion (assumming no new major push REAL SOON) is to remove the > SMP support from 3.0 and make a release out of it (when all other things > are ready). Then continue SMP efforts in 4.0 At the very least the > experimental things defined in smptests.h need to either be incorporated > as default (most everything but PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4), or removed > entirely ie. PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4. These are my above mentioned attempts > to allow both CPUs in simultaniously. Its ugly code, and will never > be 'right'. > There are people who are getting use out of our "lame" SMP right now. I agree that the spl method of locking is loosing, and the mutex approach is better. At least you got us into the SMP world, and it is helping users, so no-one can really complain!!! -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:18:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12059 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from set.spradley.tmi.net (set.spradley.tmi.net [207.170.107.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA12012 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tsprad@set.spradley.tmi.net) Received: from localhost (set.spradley.tmi.net) [127.0.0.1] by set.spradley.tmi.net with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0y9ev9-0007Ri-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:46:55 -0600 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "John S. Dyson" cc: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:50:17 EST." <199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:46:55 -0600 From: Ted Spradley Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You *definitely* make very valid points, but 2.2.X is becoming too difficult > to maintain, and people are too tempted to use -current (with negative > consequences.) This is a difficult judgement call, and I don't think the > decisions have been made final. No one has commented on Terry Lambert's suggestion to change the name from 3.0 to 2.3. I suppose that's just meaningless marketing silliness, especially when your product is free, but I expected to see some comment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:18:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12069 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12041 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: (from hasty@localhost) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13189; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:21 -0800 (PST) From: Amancio Hasty Message-Id: <199803022318.PAA13189@rah.star-gate.com> To: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net In-Reply-To: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had a fine mbone tunnel . Have Fun, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:19:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12220 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:19:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA12191 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA04604; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:51 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: Terry Lambert , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [John Dyson proposes a TerryNIX Meeting] >Maybe not worth a trip overseas by itself, but perhaps it might >be partial justification. (Unless we could get Terry to write a document that >is intellegible at less than postdoc reading skills level. :-)). Don't forget to bring your Linear Algebra notes. From the last major missive I saw, a bit of exposure to differential geometry would help as well. I've figured out Terry's game, this "Research" he talks about -- he's going to unify Gravity and the BSD Kernel!! It's gonna be called the GUTT, or "Grand Unified Terryfication Theory". Thanks for coming out today. I've been cooped up sick in the house too long. :-) Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:28:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15349 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:28:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15290 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:28:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14115; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:25:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Amancio Hasty cc: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:18:21 PST." <199803022318.PAA13189@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:25:03 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had > a fine mbone tunnel . Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone anymore, if they ever had it in the first place. The idea is to communicate with people that can't just drive over to your office, not isolate them. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:31:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16279 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:31:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (root@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16188 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:30:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu) Received: from win95.local.sunyit.edu (A-T34.rh.sunyit.edu [150.156.210.241]) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA26291; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:31:28 GMT Message-ID: <040101bd4632$94668de0$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu> From: "Alfred Perlstein" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Steve Passe" Cc: , , , Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? (making an ass out of myself) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:31:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (this is just a wild guess, so laugh as much as you want, but please read) Maybe a KISS approach to smp? (maybe this is the current approach anyway) identify several key functions/actions that can NOT be done at the same time in the kernel. when a function is called a bitmask is checked against the function's resource requirement bitmask. if things are good (the bits aren't set in the mask), the mask is OR'd with function's mask and we proceed, if the bits are "used" at the moment process is blocked until the required bits are available. the function will then have to remove its resource requirement bits from the mask on exit. some general sort of way to migrate a function call from cpu to cpu might be nessesary if some time period has elapsed because we might have A and B taking the required bits from C while A and B are called alternatly. i do agree that for some reason going to 3.0 without SMP sounds kinda bad. perhaps the most stable stuff could be used and nitpicking the design could be left for 4.0. if it isn't too much bother i would love to get a hold of that document Terry is talking about, i do not have the math prerequisite, but then again it would be very interesting. thank you, -Alfred -----Original Message----- From: Terry Lambert To: Steve Passe Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net ; toor@dyson.iquest.net ; jak@cetlink.net ; current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Monday, March 02, 1998 8:32 AM Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? >> > > I think that the *biggest* and most complex thing that will be missing >> > > will be the fine-grained SMP. It seems that we'll have ELF support, >> > > but I forget (or simply don't know) if we (they) decided that ELF will be >> > > primary or not. >> > >> > I was hoping to see SMP (in ANY form), kernel threads, RAID, and >> > softupdates, and maybe some TCP stuff, SACK, etc.. >> > But RAID, and SMP, and softupdates isn't bad. >> >> I know this probably won't be good news for most, but I don't see SMP being >> in 3.0: > >I think if this happens, it would be a good idea to relabel the 3.x >branch to be the 2.3 or 2.x (x>2) branch, and reserve 3.0. > >The point of major revision numbers is major revision. I, for one >would not be comfortable taking FreeBSD into the end-of-cycle version >range (4.x+). Down that road lies madness and "FreeBSD II". > > >> The state it is in now is NOT release quality. I don't think there is much >> finer grained locking to be had without MAJOR changes to the design, >> specifically the slpx() stuff needs to be replaced with critical sections >> protected by a mutex mechanism. I played around with techniques for >> allowing both CPUs into the kernel at the same time with the current >> splx() design but it appears to be a loosing proposition. > >I've been working on a fine grained intention mode lock manager with >deadlock avoidance and cycle detection. John Dyson has seen the >whiteboard design for the thing. > >I *don't* think the FreeBSD kernel code is amenable to anything less >(such as Djikstra's "Banker's Algorithm") because of the need to hold >state over more than one level of function calls. It's likely that >it would take a serious redesign of the kernel itself to be able to >support a radically different approach, like resource preemption (sorry >RealTime fans). You simply can't back the state far enough out for >it to work. > >My research code will unfortunately *not* be baked in time for the >aggressive schedule for 3.0 which has been proposed. If someone else >who can do mathematical programming wants to take up the torch, I >can send my internal design discussons (yes, I document it when I >talk to myself 8-)). You should have at least a working undestanding >of Linear Algebra and Group Theory (math proceeds from Group Theory >to Tensor Calculus to Graph Theory) and/or Clifford Algebra's (from >which you can get geometric soloutions without Tensors). If you know >what "Warshal's Algorithm" and "A Hamiltonian cycle" are, then you >probably qualify. > >Unfortunately, the best non-heavy-math soloution is O(N^3) for N locks; >this is simply not good enough for fine grain locking (which will result >in a larger number of locks being needed, the finer the grain). > > >> My suggestion (assumming no new major push REAL SOON) is to remove the >> SMP support from 3.0 and make a release out of it (when all other things >> are ready). Then continue SMP efforts in 4.0 At the very least the >> experimental things defined in smptests.h need to either be incorporated >> as default (most everything but PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4), or removed >> entirely ie. PUSHDOWN_LEVELs 3 & 4. These are my above mentioned attempts >> to allow both CPUs in simultaniously. Its ugly code, and will never >> be 'right'. > >I think whatever is released should support low granularity SMP, at >the very least. I would be *very* unhappy with having to bump the >version number to 4.0 in the process (it implies too long a time frame, >and it's frankly too large a number to allow the software to appear >trustworthy, IMO. Cv: SVR4). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:40:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18591 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:40:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18571 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:40:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12254; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:40:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd012235; Mon Mar 2 16:40:27 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25836; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:40:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803022340.QAA25836@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?) To: dmaddox@scsn.net Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:40:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980302171544.21782@scsn.net> from "Donald J. Maddox" at Mar 2, 98 05:15:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST > last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known > to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD. > > This seems to characterize the problem: > > # ls -l /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 72417 Jan 30 16:22 /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC > > # file /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC > /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Rich Text Format data, version 1, ANSI > > # cat /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC > cat: /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Argument list too long [ ... ] > What's wrong with this picture? cat's acting like it did a pattern match, but it didn't? This looks like a shell globbing error, not an MSDOSFS error. Note 1: cat does not exit with the error E2BIG. Note 2: This is not likely to be a VM problem, since directories can't be mmap'ed. Are you sure you didn't get bit by the vnode size change (see other postings today)? If you are using MSDOS as an LKM, recompile it if you recompiled your kernel. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:41:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18741 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:41:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18702 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:41:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA27023; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:41:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24319; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:41:24 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:41:24 -0700 Message-Id: <199803022341.QAA24319@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Mike Smith Cc: Amancio Hasty , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com> References: <199803022318.PAA13189@rah.star-gate.com> <199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it > > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where > > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had > > a fine mbone tunnel . > > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place. No kidding. Our ISP played with it for awhile (for watching NaNOG meetings), and gave it up. They're now sending people to the meetings, since it was much cheaper and useful than using the Mbone, which is useless given the current 'lag' and 'loss' on the net as a whole. PHK's 40% packet loss to CA with normal traffic would make the MBONE more than useless. It would simply waste bandwidth with no gain. That's why people who want the MBONE for research and such want their own private Internet back again, and are asking for grants and such to give them their own toy back. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:45:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19636 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:45:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19630 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:45:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03440; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:44:12 -0800 (PST) To: Ted Spradley cc: "John S. Dyson" , karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:46:55 CST." Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:44:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3436.888882252@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > No one has commented on Terry Lambert's suggestion to change the name from 3. 0 > to 2.3. I suppose that's just meaningless marketing silliness, especially > when your product is free, but I expected to see some comment. I commented on it in a smaller forum. The idea is categorically rejected on a number of grounds too numerous to go into here. Suffice it to say that we'll reduce the feature set of 3.0 before we'll invent another release to go in-between 2.2 and 3.0. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:47:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20247 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:47:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20240 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:47:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03471; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:46:11 -0800 (PST) To: Mike Smith cc: Amancio Hasty , tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:25:03 PST." <199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:46:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3468.888882371@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it > > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where > > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had > > a fine mbone tunnel . > > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place. > > The idea is to communicate with people that can't just drive over to > your office, not isolate them. Though apropos this, we're supposed to have MBONE at the office now but nobody has managed to figure out how to get it through the Cisco router. I've turned all the appropriate options on but still nada. :( Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:48:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20439 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:48:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from helios.dnttm.ru (root@dnttm.wave.ras.ru [194.85.104.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20338 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:47:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by helios.dnttm.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/IP-3) with UUCP id CAA13242; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:46:48 +0300 Received: from tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00516; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:53:12 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Message-Id: <199803022353.CAA00516@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: dmaddox@scsn.net cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:15:44 EST." <19980302171544.21782@scsn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 02:53:12 +0300 From: Dmitrij Tejblum Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald J. Maddox wrote: > After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST > last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known > to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD. Sorry, the fix I sent to Mike yesterday was incomplete, and broke more than fixed. Try the next one. Beware: I want to sleep. (But I tried it...) Dima --- msdosfs_vnops.c Tue Mar 3 01:59:43 1998 +++ msdosfs_vnops.c Tue Mar 3 02:48:28 1998 @@ -552,7 +552,7 @@ msdosfs_read(ap) long n; long on; daddr_t lbn; - daddr_t rablock, rablock1; + daddr_t rablock; int rasize; struct buf *bp; struct vnode *vp = ap->a_vp; @@ -602,14 +602,12 @@ msdosfs_read(ap) #endif if (vp->v_lastr + 1 == lbn && de_cn2off(pmp, rablock) < dep->de_FileSize) { - rablock1 = de_cn2bn(pmp, rablock); rasize = pmp->pm_bpcluster; - error = breadn(vp, de_cn2bn(pmp, lbn), - pmp->pm_bpcluster, &rablock1, &rasize, 1, - NOCRED, &bp); + error = breadn(vp, lbn, pmp->pm_bpcluster, + &rablock, &rasize, 1, NOCRED, &bp); } else - error = bread(vp, de_cn2bn(pmp, lbn), - pmp->pm_bpcluster, NOCRED, &bp); + error = bread(vp, lbn, pmp->pm_bpcluster, + NOCRED, &bp); vp->v_lastr = lbn; } n = min(n, pmp->pm_bpcluster - bp->b_resid); @@ -742,9 +740,10 @@ msdosfs_write(ap) vnode_pager_setsize(vp, dep->de_FileSize); } - bn = de_blk(pmp, uio->uio_offset); + bn = de_cluster(pmp, uio->uio_offset); if ((uio->uio_offset & pmp->pm_crbomask) == 0 - && (de_blk(pmp, uio->uio_offset + uio->uio_resid) > de_blk(pmp, uio->uio_offset) + && (de_cluster(pmp, uio->uio_offset + uio->uio_resid) + > de_cluster(pmp, uio->uio_offset) || uio->uio_offset + uio->uio_resid >= dep->de_FileSize)) { /* * If either the whole cluster gets written, @@ -758,9 +757,8 @@ msdosfs_write(ap) * for the fat table. (see msdosfs_strategy) */ if (bp->b_blkno == bp->b_lblkno) { - error = pcbmap(dep, - de_bn2cn(pmp, bp->b_lblkno), - &bp->b_blkno, 0, 0); + error = pcbmap(dep, bp->b_lblkno, &bp->b_blkno, + 0, 0); if (error) bp->b_blkno = -1; } To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:49:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20836 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:49:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20808 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:49:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19503; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:49:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd019471; Mon Mar 2 16:49:47 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26345; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:49:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803022349.QAA26345@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian Handy) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:49:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brian Handy" at Mar 2, 98 03:18:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > [John Dyson proposes a TerryNIX Meeting] I don't think he was proposing one of these; I think he wanted an architectural meeting, and that I could be the honorary peanut gallery. 8-) 8-). > >Maybe not worth a trip overseas by itself, but perhaps it might > >be partial justification. (Unless we could get Terry to write a > >document that is intellegible at less than postdoc reading skills > > level. :-)). > > Don't forget to bring your Linear Algebra notes. From the last major > missive I saw, a bit of exposure to differential geometry would help as > well. Well, a familiarity with hammers *does* help if you want to be a carpenter. 8-). > I've figured out Terry's game, this "Research" he talks about -- > he's going to unify Gravity and the BSD Kernel!! It's gonna be called the > GUTT, or "Grand Unified Terryfication Theory". That's what Agent Mulder was claiming the last time he was at my trailer in the middle of nowhere with the T3's into it... > Thanks for coming out today. I've been cooped up sick in the house too > long. :-) We couldn't tell. ;^). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:51:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21452 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:51:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21447 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:51:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15252; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:50:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd015178; Mon Mar 2 16:50:55 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26420; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:50:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803022350.QAA26420@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:50:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net In-Reply-To: <3468.888882371@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 2, 98 03:46:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Though apropos this, we're supposed to have MBONE at the office now > but nobody has managed to figure out how to get it through the Cisco > router. I've turned all the appropriate options on but still nada. :( You need to turn on the inappropriate options, too. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 15:57:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23312 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:57:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23303 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:57:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03627; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:55:22 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: mike@smith.net.au, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:50:43 GMT." <199803022350.QAA26420@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:55:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3623.888882922@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You need to turn on the inappropriate options, too. Do tell. You have a list of them for me? :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:04:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24371 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:04:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cabri.obs-besancon.fr (cabri.obs-besancon.fr [193.52.184.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24365 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:04:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr) Received: by cabri.obs-besancon.fr (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA19566; Tue, 3 Mar 98 01:05:08 +0100 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 01:05:08 +0100 Message-Id: <9803030005.AA19566@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: tomdean@ix.netcom.com Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803022122.NAA00313@ix.netcom.com> (message from Thomas Dean on Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:22:35 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current X-Mailer: Emacs Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> Thomas Dean writes: > gdb works. > Since my last e-mail, I did: > cvsup current-supfile > make -j4 world > cd /sys/i386/conf > config KERNEL-SMP # my config file (SMP kernel) > cd ../../compile/KERNEL-SMP > make clean > make depend > make > make install > shutdown -r now > > cc -g hello.c -o hello > gdb hello > b main > r > s > s > c > quit > and, everything worked. > Did you do all these steps? Yes, and sure, gdb works with most of the program I compile. The problem occurs with only *some* programs. I will try to find the minimal program crashing gdb. Jean-Marc _____________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:12:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25440 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:12:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25416 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:11:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id SAA19579; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:11:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980302181137.44607@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:11:37 -0600 From: dannyman To: Nate Williams , Mike Smith Cc: Amancio Hasty , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803022318.PAA13189@rah.star-gate.com> <199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com> <199803022341.QAA24319@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803022341.QAA24319@mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 04:41:24PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 04:41:24PM -0700, Nate Williams wrote: > > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone > > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place. > > No kidding. Our ISP played with it for awhile (for watching NaNOG > meetings), and gave it up. They're now sending people to the meetings, > since it was much cheaper and useful than using the Mbone, which is > useless given the current 'lag' and 'loss' on the net as a whole. > > PHK's 40% packet loss to CA with normal traffic would make the MBONE > more than useless. It would simply waste bandwidth with no gain. > > That's why people who want the MBONE for research and such want their > own private Internet back again, and are asking for grants and such to > give them their own toy back. Yah, the mbone works a whole lot better over the vBNS. :) -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:13:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25597 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050ndd.san.rr.com (root@dt050ndd.san.rr.com [204.210.31.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25587 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:13:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (dougdougdougdoug@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050ndd.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02188; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:12:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <34FB4AE5.5C578BEF@san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:12:21 -0800 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE-0302 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" CC: Terry Lambert , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson wrote: > Actually, people, Terry does have really good ideas in this area. I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say that I'm happy to see some of the animosity regarding Terry fading on both sides. As one of those people whose personality sometimes gets in the way of his message, it's refreshing to see people willing to look past it and get some work done. Bravo. > I think > that we would profit from a kernel meeting (Terry, DG, me, and others (hopefully > a few of our UK/European/OZ people also) who regularly work on structural issues.) May I humbly suggest that IRC is your friend? :) Seriously, I don't think I have to explain the value of communicating in real time, and IRC is a lot cheaper than airline tickets. We do a lot of stuff over e-mail (re our network) but it always amazes me how much more we get done in a real time environment. Video has a lot of advantages, but not everyone has access to it, and pasting documents into the conversation is often handy too. I know y'all have lots of IRC experience represented in the core team, but it goes without saying that I'd be happy to help anyone interested. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:15:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26396 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:15:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26390 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:15:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmaddox@scsn.net) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.63]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA165; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:12:39 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA10292; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:16:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root) Message-ID: <19980302191601.01401@scsn.net> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:16:01 -0500 From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox) To: Terry Lambert , dmaddox@scsn.net Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?) Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , dmaddox@scsn.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980302171544.21782@scsn.net> <199803022340.QAA25836@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803022340.QAA25836@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:40:25PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:40:25PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST > > last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known > > to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD. > > > > This seems to characterize the problem: > > > > # ls -l /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC > > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 72417 Jan 30 16:22 /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC > > > > # file /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC > > /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Rich Text Format data, version 1, ANSI > > > > # cat /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC > > cat: /dos/c/MISC/STAC.DOC: Argument list too long > > [ ... ] > > > What's wrong with this picture? > > cat's acting like it did a pattern match, but it didn't? > > This looks like a shell globbing error, not an MSDOSFS error. > > Note 1: cat does not exit with the error E2BIG. Apparently, it did this time :-) Actually the error 7 was being returned by the read(2) call (see the trace). > > Note 2: This is not likely to be a VM problem, since directories > can't be mmap'ed. > > Are you sure you didn't get bit by the vnode size change (see other > postings today)? If you are using MSDOS as an LKM, recompile it > if you recompiled your kernel. Reread the beginning of my message. This is following a complete 'make world', and new kernel. In any case, it looks like Dmitrij Tejblum is aware of, and has fixed, the problem. I still haven't tried the patches (I just saw 'em), but I have high hopes ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:16:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26698 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:16:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26647 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmaddox@scsn.net) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.63]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA125; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:13:56 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA10300; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:17:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root) Message-ID: <19980302191718.33531@scsn.net> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:17:18 -0500 From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox) To: Dmitrij Tejblum , dmaddox@scsn.net Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?) Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mail-Followup-To: Dmitrij Tejblum , dmaddox@scsn.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au References: <19980302171544.21782@scsn.net> <199803022353.CAA00516@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803022353.CAA00516@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>; from Dmitrij Tejblum on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:53:12AM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:53:12AM +0300, Dmitrij Tejblum wrote: > Donald J. Maddox wrote: > > > After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST > > last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known > > to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD. > > Sorry, the fix I sent to Mike yesterday was incomplete, and broke more > than fixed. Try the next one. Beware: I want to sleep. (But I tried > it...) Thanks, I'll try this immediately :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:39:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28915 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:39:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28910 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:39:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmaddox@scsn.net) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.13]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA140; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:36:10 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA00218; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:39:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root) Message-ID: <19980302193934.25347@scsn.net> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:39:34 -0500 From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox) To: Dmitrij Tejblum , dmaddox@scsn.net Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?) Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mail-Followup-To: Dmitrij Tejblum , dmaddox@scsn.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au References: <19980302171544.21782@scsn.net> <199803022353.CAA00516@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803022353.CAA00516@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>; from Dmitrij Tejblum on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:53:12AM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:53:12AM +0300, Dmitrij Tejblum wrote: > Donald J. Maddox wrote: > > > After a 'make world' and a new kernel from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST > > last night, it seems that msdosfs is broken... Files that are known > > to be good appear corrupt when accessed from FBSD. > > Sorry, the fix I sent to Mike yesterday was incomplete, and broke more > than fixed. Try the next one. Beware: I want to sleep. (But I tried > it...) > Just so you know, this patch seems to have fixed the problem completely :-) Thanks... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:53:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00859 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:53:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ve7tcp.ampr.org (ve7tcp.ampr.org [198.161.92.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00853 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org) Received: from localhost.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by ve7tcp.ampr.org (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA06200; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:53:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803030053.RAA06200@ve7tcp.ampr.org> X-Authentication-Warning: ve7tcp.ampr.org: localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: mbone In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:46:11 PST." <3468.888882371@time.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:53:37 -0700 From: Lyndon Nerenberg Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> "Jordan" == Jordan K Hubbard writes: Jordan> Though apropos this, we're supposed to have MBONE at the Jordan> office now but nobody has managed to figure out how to get Jordan> it through the Cisco router. I've turned all the Jordan> appropriate options on but still nada. :( Jordan, I'm sooo disappointed :-) I had the same problem (but with a different vendors router/firewall). I solved the problem by replacing said router with our own FreeBSD based firewall/router. Of course, there's nothing to talk to on the other side :-( It's a shame the ISPs are so clueless. UUNET Canada actually charges *more* for an mbone feed. Rather assinine when you consider that deploying native DVMRP multicast would *reduce* their backbone traffic. (With SKIP and VPNs do they really think people aren't tunneling the mbone through without telling them?) --lyndon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 16:55:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01156 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:55:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.sta.adelphia.net (alpha.sta.adelphia.net [24.48.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01134 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:55:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from missmanp@adelphia.net) Received: from missmanp (surf133.sta.adelphia.net [24.48.11.133] (may be forged)) by alpha.sta.adelphia.net (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA25022 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:55:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002501bd463e$feafe960$850b3018@missmanp.chr.adelphia.net> From: "Paul Missman" To: Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:54:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: dannyman Date: Monday, March 02, 1998 7:14 PM >On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 04:41:24PM -0700, Nate Williams wrote: > >> > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone >> > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place. >> >> No kidding. Our ISP played with it for awhile (for watching NaNOG >> meetings), and gave it up. They're now sending people to the meetings, >> since it was much cheaper and useful than using the Mbone, which is >> useless given the current 'lag' and 'loss' on the net as a whole. >> >> PHK's 40% packet loss to CA with normal traffic would make the MBONE >> more than useless. It would simply waste bandwidth with no gain. >> >> That's why people who want the MBONE for research and such want their >> own private Internet back again, and are asking for grants and such to >> give them their own toy back. > >Yah, the mbone works a whole lot better over the vBNS. :) > There's a lot to be said for separate fibers, or at least separate WDM channels on the backbones to carry all real time traffic. Hopefully, in the not to distant future the net will head that way. I imagine IP telephony will get the backbone folks onto the track of not mixing real time signals with standard priority traffic. On the release front: what runs now for SMP seems like a good idea, when it tests as stable. Getting lower level locking, while an excellent idea, could take quite a while to implement and debug. Trying to put too many things into 3.0 that aren't close to ready will just make the release date indeterminate. SMP fully working seems a good, major goal for 3.0, along with whatever else is ready by whatever cutoff date is established for new submissions. Anything that is going to take too long can go towards 4.0. Paul Missman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 17:44:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06659 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:44:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ix.netcom.com (sil-wa5-09.ix.netcom.com [206.214.137.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06654 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:44:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from tomdean@localhost) by ix.netcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00750; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:43:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:43:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803030143.RAA00750@ix.netcom.com> From: Thomas Dean To: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <9803030005.AA19566@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> (message from Jean-Marc Zucconi on Tue, 3 Mar 98 01:05:08 +0100) Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Send a sample and I will try it. tom dean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 17:52:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07519 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pop.uniserve.com (pop.uniserve.com [204.244.156.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07458 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:51:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@uniserve.com) Received: from shell.uniserve.com [204.244.186.218] by pop.uniserve.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #4) id 0y9gpz-0005Qa-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:49:43 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:49:40 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: "John S. Dyson" cc: Terry Lambert , smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > I think whatever is released should support low granularity SMP, at > > the very least. I would be *very* unhappy with having to bump the > > version number to 4.0 in the process (it implies too long a time frame, > > and it's frankly too large a number to allow the software to appear > > trustworthy, IMO. Cv: SVR4). > > > Well, think of it like this: > 3.0 simple SMP. > 3.1 much better SMP. How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have they? It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes). > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 18:19:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11509 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:19:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11504 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:19:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA04484; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:16:23 -0800 (PST) To: Tom cc: "John S. Dyson" , Terry Lambert , smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:49:40 PST." Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:16:22 -0800 Message-ID: <4479.888891382@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have > they? More monkeys? Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 18:52:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15205 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:52:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15200 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:52:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17011; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:52:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd016956; Mon Mar 2 19:52:06 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA09170; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:51:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803030251.TAA09170@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:51:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, mike@smith.net.au, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net In-Reply-To: <3623.888882922@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 2, 98 03:55:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > You need to turn on the inappropriate options, too. > > Do tell. You have a list of them for me? :-) Archie Cobb would... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:05:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17033 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:05:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17026 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:05:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA14722; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:03:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803030303.TAA14722@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: dmaddox@scsn.net cc: Dmitrij Tejblum , current@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au Subject: Re: MSDOSFS Broken(?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:39:34 EST." <19980302193934.25347@scsn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:03:42 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:53:12AM +0300, Dmitrij Tejblum wrote: > > Sorry, the fix I sent to Mike yesterday was incomplete, and broke more > > than fixed. Try the next one. Beware: I want to sleep. (But I tried > > it...) > > > > Just so you know, this patch seems to have fixed the problem > completely :-) Thanks... Committed as soon as I saw this. Thanks for testing it Donald, thanks for the fix Dima! -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:07:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17364 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:07:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17337 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:07:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michaelh@cet.co.jp) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.8/CET-v2.2) with SMTP id DAA02775; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:04:21 GMT Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:04:21 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "John S. Dyson" cc: Terry Lambert , smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > Actually, people, Terry does have really good ideas in this area. I > think that we would profit from a kernel meeting (Terry, DG, me, and > others (hopefully a few of our UK/European/OZ people also) who regularly > work on structural issues.) Even if we don't adopt everything that > Terry says, I found his talk to be very educational. Maybe not worth a > trip overseas by itself, but perhaps it might be partial justification. > (Unless we could get Terry to write a document that is intellegible at > less than postdoc reading skills level. :-)). I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db implementations around for this and other reasons. Also, have a look at byacc. Regards, Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:08:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17871 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:08:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17852 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:08:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15963; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:08:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd015920; Mon Mar 2 20:08:16 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA10469; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:08:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803030308.UAA10469@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:08:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tom" at Mar 2, 98 05:49:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Well, think of it like this: > > 3.0 simple SMP. > > 3.1 much better SMP. > > How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have > they? I like Jordan's answer, but the truth is, there is very little effective difference in implementations. SMP concurrency is a mathematically hard problem. It will need a lot of serious, mind-numbing detail work to get right. Probably several people will have their minds numbed in the process, and the one with the numbest mind will be the implementation chosen because it will have the best performance. I *don't* believe that Linux has solved this problem in a general sense; it requires a lot of academic rigor, and that's in short supply in volunteer projects (Eric Raymond's paper not to the contrary). > It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it > seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes). They are. AFAIK, they do not have an affinity model. Kernel threading is, IMO, not a win at all, unless you combine it with a cooperative user space scheduler, or implement it using call contexts so you can keep your quantum, or throw the threads at a sufficiently large number of CPU's to overcome the non-affinity L1 cache and relative scheduling losses from competing with other processes and threads for quantum (this is what makes the context switch wins go away, but makes your benchmarks look nice on idle systems). I think user space threading is vastly misunderstood and vastly underrated. There is a big difference between call-conversion based yielding and explicit yielding. Most comparisons I have seen are based on the idea that the two are equivalent, or that you can't implement fairness in the case where a bad programmer fails to write code that doesn't buzz-loop (buzz-looping is a bad thing in the general sense of codeing in a single process; it is moreso in the sense of threads). The one real drawback is that you can not compete as more than 1 process for quantum; this is a scheduler issue. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:14:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18780 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:14:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA18749 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:14:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17626; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:14:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd017519; Mon Mar 2 20:14:22 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA10998; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:14:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803030314.UAA10998@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:14:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Mar 3, 98 12:04:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure > calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db > implementations around for this and other reasons. > > Also, have a look at byacc. Were you thinking of maybe "closure.c" and "warshall.c"? ;-). The "gprof", "tsort", and "make" code also use cycle detection... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:29:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20665 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:29:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20652 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:29:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14134; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:29:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803030329.TAA14134@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , mike@smith.net.au, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:55:22 PST." <3623.888882922@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:29:28 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just talk to Bill Fenner or who knows maybe one of the Cisco people can step in. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 19:34:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21562 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:34:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21509 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:34:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michaelh@cet.co.jp) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.8/CET-v2.2) with SMTP id DAA02985; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:25:59 GMT Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:25:59 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Terry Lambert cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803030314.UAA10998@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure > > calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db > > implementations around for this and other reasons. > > > > Also, have a look at byacc. > > Were you thinking of maybe "closure.c" and "warshall.c"? ;-). > > The "gprof", "tsort", and "make" code also use cycle detection... Yes. Another thing I found interesting about ODI is their distributed cache manager. The backend is basically dumbed down to just understand pages. But it keeps track of them and informs clients with cached pages whenever the server copy is dirtied. The server maintains a return socket for each client for the "upcall". Regards, Mike Hancock To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:02:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24203 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:02:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24191 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:02:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14109; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:27:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803030327.TAA14109@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Mike Smith cc: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:25:03 PST." <199803022325.PAA14115@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:27:02 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike please I have been on the mbone on and off for the last 7 years and I have talked to people all over the world. Amancio > > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it > > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where > > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had > > a fine mbone tunnel . > > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place. > > The idea is to communicate with people that can't just drive over to > your office, not isolate them. > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:13:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25997 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:13:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25982 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:13:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michaelh@cet.co.jp) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.8/CET-v2.2) with SMTP id EAA03392; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:11:39 GMT Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:11:39 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "John S. Dyson" cc: Terry Lambert , smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > Well, think of it like this: > 3.0 simple SMP. > 3.1 much better SMP. 7.0 Terry SMP. :-). **.0 Terry BSD. :-). 9.0 Diehard BSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:13:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26122 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:13:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bigpuppy.newell.arlington.va.us (bigpuppy.newell.arlington.va.us [209.31.147.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26115 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mnewell@newell.arlington.va.us) Received: from localhost (mnewell@localhost) by bigpuppy.newell.arlington.va.us (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA15894; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:12:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:12:50 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Newell To: Amancio Hasty cc: Mike Smith , tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803030327.TAA14109@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Also note that some major carriers provide it as a service; MCI, UUNET, ??? We've used it for forever at NASA HQ; which is _not_ in the bay area... :-) Mike On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: hasty> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:27:02 -0800 hasty> From: Amancio Hasty hasty> To: Mike Smith hasty> Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty> jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net hasty> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? hasty> hasty> Mike please I have been on the mbone on and off for the last 7 years and hasty> I have talked to people all over the world. hasty> hasty> Amancio hasty> hasty> hasty> > > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it hasty> > > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where hasty> > > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had hasty> > > a fine mbone tunnel . hasty> > hasty> > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone hasty> > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place. hasty> > hasty> > The idea is to communicate with people that can't just drive over to hasty> > your office, not isolate them. hasty> > -- hasty> > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith hasty> > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au hasty> > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org hasty> > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com hasty> > hasty> > hasty> hasty> hasty> hasty> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org hasty> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message hasty> Much obliged, Mike +--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+ | Mike Newell | The opinions expressed herein | | Affiliation: | are mine. You can take them or | | Address: | leave them. Flames to /dev/null. | +--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+ | Mike@Newell.arlington.va.us | http://www.newell.arlington.va.us | +--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+ | "Peace. It's wonderful!" Father Divine. | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:25:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27932 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:25:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27926 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:25:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id EAA23691 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:26:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.8/keltia-2.13/nospam) id AAA10814; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:16:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980303001626.A9433@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:16:26 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980302172959.38382@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> <199803021704.KAA14250@usr02.primenet.com> <19980302181625.19368@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i In-Reply-To: <19980302181625.19368@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 06:16:25PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4103 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Ollivier Robert: > Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I > have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current > and running/compiling some programs. And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-( > That's too random to get a clear picture. The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:25:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28007 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27986 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:25:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA05045; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:24:31 -0800 (PST) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Mike Smith , tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:27:02 PST." <199803030327.TAA14109@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:24:30 -0800 Message-ID: <5042.888899070@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Mike please I have been on the mbone on and off for the last 7 years and > I have talked to people all over the world. Also, in Amancio's defense, even if it *did* work only in the Bay Area it would still be of great value considering how much FreeBSD (and other CS related) work goes on in this region. :) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:31:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29096 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:31:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29089 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:31:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA25772; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma025768; Mon Mar 2 20:30:54 1998 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA22761; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:30:54 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199803030430.UAA22761@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803030251.TAA09170@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 3, 98 02:51:59 am" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:30:54 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert writes: > > > You need to turn on the inappropriate options, too. > > > > Do tell. You have a list of them for me? :-) > > Archie Cobb would... ^^^^ that's COBBS with an S.. :-) First, set up an FreeBSD machine on the inside of the Cisco to be your local end of the MBONE tunnel. Get the IP address of the remote end from your ISP (you've probably already done that). You run mrouted on this machine. Then you need to allow two protocols through the Cisco if you're firewalling: IP #4 (IPIP) and IP #2 (IGMP). Also, allow anything with destination 224.0.0.0/4. This should do it. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:40:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29879 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:40:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29871 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00843; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:40:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803030440.XAA00843@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: from Tom at "Mar 2, 98 05:49:40 pm" To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:40:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tom said: > > How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have > they? > Not really. When things like SMP are worked on in FreeBSD, things move pretty quickly. If anything, we are just a big more sporadic due to less manpower. > > It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it > seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes). > So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind of in progress for a good API interface.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:43:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00474 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:43:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from person.dyn.ml.org (dynip228.efn.org [204.214.97.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00467; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:43:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjb@efn.org) Received: from localhost (cjb@localhost) by person.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00297; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:45:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjb@efn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: person.dyn.ml.org: cjb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:45:45 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Brunner X-Sender: cjb@person.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: cjb@efn.org To: freebsd-multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sound problems with -current Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Multimedia, I did a cvsup/make world to -CURRENT early this morning (3/2/98) and now my sound is totally shot. Midis, wave, all of it. When I attempt to play a midi, nothing. When I try to play an mp3, I get about half a second and then it skips and stops; the program quits out (splay). I recompiled the kernel and set up all the PnP stuff just like I had it before and still nothing. I am using a SB 32 PnP and Voxware. Thanks a lot! - Chris Brunner - - cjb@efn.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:46:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01574 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:46:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01551; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:46:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michaelh@cet.co.jp) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.8/CET-v2.2) with SMTP id EAA03788; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:45:57 GMT Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:45:57 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "John S. Dyson" cc: Tom , tlambert@primenet.com, smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803030440.XAA00843@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it > > seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes). > > > So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind > of in progress for a good API interface.) In 4.4 the user and proc structures were reorganized to better support threading and with variable-weight depending on what state the thread needed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 20:55:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03415 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:55:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pop.uniserve.com (pop.uniserve.com [204.244.156.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA03358; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:54:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@uniserve.com) Received: from shell.uniserve.com [204.244.186.218] by pop.uniserve.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #4) id 0y9jj8-00079t-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:54:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:54:46 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: "John S. Dyson" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803030440.XAA00843@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it > > seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes). > > > So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind > of in progress for a good API interface.) What about this AIO and database stuff you kept alluding too? Or is it secret? :) It is kinda of interesting that Solidtech ported their Solid server to FreeBSD 2.2, but performance is so-so because of lack of threading. > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 21:21:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06546 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:21:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA06531 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:21:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29222; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:19:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA26387; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:19:54 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:19:54 -0700 Message-Id: <199803030519.WAA26387@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Michael Hancock Cc: "John S. Dyson" , Terry Lambert , smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: References: <199803022311.SAA14774@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure > calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db > implementations around for this and other reasons. Bwah, hah, hah, hah, hah. (Wiping tears from my eyes..) You've *GOT* to be kidding, right? ObjectStore is fast for a ObjectDB, but it's *darn* slow as compared to a relational DB, like Oracle and/or Informix. (We use their Java engine in our product, but speedy it ain't. And the locking in ObjectStore is useless at best. At least their payware Java DB has the ability to have more than one 'session' open on a DB at a time.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 21:43:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08762 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:43:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08755 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:43:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michaelh@cet.co.jp) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.8/CET-v2.2) with SMTP id FAA04202; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:40:49 GMT Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:40:49 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Nate Williams cc: "John S. Dyson" , Terry Lambert , smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803030519.WAA26387@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Nate Williams wrote: > > I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure > > calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db > > implementations around for this and other reasons. > > Bwah, hah, hah, hah, hah. (Wiping tears from my eyes..) > > You've *GOT* to be kidding, right? ObjectStore is fast for a ObjectDB, > but it's *darn* slow as compared to a relational DB, like Oracle and/or > Informix. > > (We use their Java engine in our product, but speedy it ain't. And the > locking in ObjectStore is useless at best. At least their payware Java > DB has the ability to have more than one 'session' open on a DB at a > time.) You're looking at the PSE which is completely different. You're playing with a one user toy, a nice toy but still a toy. ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 21:47:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09468 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:47:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA09454 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:47:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id FAA22404; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:14:57 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803030414.FAA22404@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Mbone at WC ? (was Re: 3.0 RELEASE) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:14:56 +0100 (MET) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199803022341.QAA24319@mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Mar 2, 98 04:41:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it ... > No kidding. Our ISP played with it for awhile (for watching NaNOG > meetings), and gave it up. They're now sending people to the meetings, > since it was much cheaper and useful than using the Mbone, which is > useless given the current 'lag' and 'loss' on the net as a whole. > > PHK's 40% packet loss to CA with normal traffic would make the MBONE > more than useless. It would simply waste bandwidth with no gain. i agree that mbone loss can be very bad at times or for some areas, but there are other applications where multicast would still work well. For example, for some time i have had an fec-based reliable multicast application (RMDP) which would be an ideal solution to things like distribution of new freebsd releases etc (to mirrors and/or end-users) if only the server had multicast. Jordan's message in this thread makes me thing that this could become a reality now... I myself have used this between freefall and here, over unicast UDP, at times where the loss was so bad that normal ftp would stall all the time. see http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/fec.html for details. Microsoft has also a report (see research.microsoft.com and look for Jim Gemmel's page) indicating interest in such a technology, and there are many companies using similar technology. Cheers Luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 21:50:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10021 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:50:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10015 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:50:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michaelh@cet.co.jp) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.8/CET-v2.2) with SMTP id FAA04259; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:49:24 GMT Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:49:24 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Nate Williams cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Michael Hancock wrote: > You're looking at the PSE which is completely different. You're playing > with a one user toy, a nice toy but still a toy. > > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much > faster. To be fair, ObjectStore probably pulls off pages of the server's harddisk at about the same performance level as the rdbs, but when you're pulling most of your pages out a local cache it's pretty hard to lose. Even if you're programming with Java which is getting faster and faster, but can still lag behind C++. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 22:01:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10908 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:01:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10902; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:01:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00325; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:01:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803030601.BAA00325@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: from Tom at "Mar 2, 98 08:54:46 pm" To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:01:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tom said: > > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > It seems to me that they even have kernel threading too, although it > > > seems to me that their threads are a bit heavy (almost pseudo-processes). > > > > > So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind > > of in progress for a good API interface.) > > What about this AIO and database stuff you kept alluding too? Or is it > secret? :) > AIO is going to be in there (it is actually already there, modulo a few known bugs.) AIO also needs manpages and a few docs. I think that most of the system calls are there, and if you just refer to the POSIX.4 specs, it should work okay (except for the signal handling still being a little wrong.) > > It is kinda of interesting that Solidtech ported their Solid server to > FreeBSD 2.2, but performance is so-so because of lack of threading. > That does not surprise me. Oracle is the same way (whoops!!!), because the current FreeBSD port doesn't use AIO. (The port was done a long time ago.) It is mostly used in the NC server, and doesn't really need high perf. Actually, AIO should help databases alot. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 22:14:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12721 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:14:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA12681 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:14:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 21987 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 06:21:24 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-030198 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 22:21:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Michael Hancock Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net, Terry Lambert , "John S.Dyson" , Nate Williams Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Michael Hancock wrote: .. > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much > faster. Does it support a true relational model? Purely OO database engine is heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational. BTW, having a SQL interpreter is NOT an evidence of a relational model. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 22:35:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14412 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:35:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14404 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:35:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michaelh@cet.co.jp) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.8/CET-v2.2) with SMTP id GAA04642; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:33:53 GMT Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:33:53 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Simon Shapiro cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much > > faster. > > Does it support a true relational model? Purely OO database engine is > heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational. I think it's weak in this respect. Yes, it should be faster. > BTW, having a SQL interpreter is NOT an evidence of a relational model. I think it has a rudimentary SQL interpreter. > > Simon Regards, Mike Hancock To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 22:54:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16602 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:54:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA16591 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:54:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 22659 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 07:01:27 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-030198 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:01:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Michael Hancock Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Michael Hancock wrote: > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > >> > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much >> > faster. >> >> Does it support a true relational model? Purely OO database engine is >> heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational. > > I think it's weak in this respect. Yes, it should be faster. > >> BTW, having a SQL interpreter is NOT an evidence of a relational model. > > I think it has a rudimentary SQL interpreter. ``Ein Hadash Tachat Hashemesh'' - ``Nothing new under the sun...'' We have (finally) come a full cirlcle to Network databases. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 23:19:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18370 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:19:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18362 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13995; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:08:29 +0100 (CET) To: Ted Spradley cc: "John S. Dyson" , karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:46:55 CST." Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:08:28 +0100 Message-ID: <13993.888908908@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Ted Spradley writes: >> You *definitely* make very valid points, but 2.2.X is becoming too difficul >t >> to maintain, and people are too tempted to use -current (with negative >> consequences.) This is a difficult judgement call, and I don't think the >> decisions have been made final. > >No one has commented on Terry Lambert's suggestion to change the name from 3. >0 >to 2.3. I suppose that's just meaningless marketing silliness, especially >when your product is free, but I expected to see some comment. The fact that there has been none comment on Terrys suggestion usually means that people didn't even spend so much time to consider it that they could prevent their Pavlovian reflex from pressing D at the sight of Terrys name. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 23:35:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20119 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:35:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20110 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:35:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19313; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:34:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803030734.XAA19313@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Ted Spradley , "John S. Dyson" , karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:08:28 +0100." <13993.888908908@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:34:26 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, if you do rename 3.0 to 2.3 I bet that their will be lots of comments --- till then I don't think people really care . I think is a good idea to rename a 3.0 snapshot to 2.3 and stabilize cause 3.0 has such a bad reputation actually it is more of symbol for fear 8) Amancio > In message , Ted Spradley writes: > >> You *definitely* make very valid points, but 2.2.X is becoming too difficul > >t > >> to maintain, and people are too tempted to use -current (with negative > >> consequences.) This is a difficult judgement call, and I don't think the > >> decisions have been made final. > > > >No one has commented on Terry Lambert's suggestion to change the name from 3. > >0 > >to 2.3. I suppose that's just meaningless marketing silliness, especially > >when your product is free, but I expected to see some comment. > > The fact that there has been none comment on Terrys suggestion usually > means that people didn't even spend so much time to consider it that > they could prevent their Pavlovian reflex from pressing D at the sight > of Terrys name. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member > phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." > "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 23:49:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21408 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:49:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21384 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:49:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17364; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:49:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd017351; Tue Mar 3 00:49:24 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA17327; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:49:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803030749.AAA17327@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:49:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803030430.UAA22761@bubba.whistle.com> from "Archie Cobbs" at Mar 2, 98 08:30:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Archie Cobb would... > ^^^^ that's COBBS with an S.. :-) Sorry, typo... I tend to leave the letters off the ends of words (or names). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Mar 2 23:56:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22961 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:56:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22898; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:56:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18080; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:56:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd018074; Tue Mar 3 00:56:12 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA17826; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:56:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803030756.AAA17826@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:56:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tom@uniserve.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803030601.BAA00325@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 3, 98 01:01:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It is kinda of interesting that Solidtech ported their Solid server to > > FreeBSD 2.2, but performance is so-so because of lack of threading. > > That does not surprise me. Oracle is the same way (whoops!!!), because > the current FreeBSD port doesn't use AIO. (The port was done a long time > ago.) It is mostly used in the NC server, and doesn't really need high > perf. > > Actually, AIO should help databases alot. Yes. I was going to point out that user space threading actually works up to Draft 4 requirements now, and there is very little difference between thre and draft 10. The main difference in using AIO or kernel threads is that you can interleave read operations (write operations are interleaved anyway). There's a bit of argument possible here; for example, when you make a read with O_NONBLOCK, and it returns EWOULDBLOCK, it's probably a good thing to trigger a read-ahead. This would allow the current user space implementation to interleave I/O as effectively as a kernel threads implementation, and with an additional NULL system call overhead relative to each read call. An AIO may or may not be able to cluster waits in the average case, so this may be a wash. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 00:28:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27839 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:28:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA27833 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:28:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06864; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:27:57 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA11091; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:27:19 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980303092719.58779@follo.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:27:19 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Poul-Henning Kamp , "John S. Dyson" Cc: Mikael Karpberg , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803022250.RAA14700@dyson.iquest.net> <13021.888879868@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <13021.888879868@critter.freebsd.dk>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:04:28AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:04:28AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > You're rambling some perfectly valid points as usual :-) > > We're at the point where it would really be nice to be able to go tell > the CEO "off to the bank you go, borrow some money for R&D, you may > get them back in increased revenue later. We'll need $1M over the > year. Small unmarked used notes would be best." > > Sponsors most welcome. Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field in the registration, where people could key in their credit card number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further FreeBSD development? It should in that case include some suggestions that would tempt people to donate even if they can't donate a large amount e.g, "No amount to small, no amount to large. Certain you can't spare $10 in favour of faster SMP-developments?" If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10, there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD. Eivind, who can't easily come up with the required $1M himself at the moment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 00:43:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00428 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:43:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00417 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:42:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07022; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:40:00 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA11153; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:39:24 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980303093923.52803@follo.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:39:23 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <13993.888908908@critter.freebsd.dk> <199803030734.XAA19313@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199803030734.XAA19313@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:34:26PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:34:26PM -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Well, if you do rename 3.0 to 2.3 I bet that their will be lots of > comments --- till then I don't think people really care . > > I think is a good idea to rename a 3.0 snapshot to 2.3 and stabilize > cause 3.0 has such a bad reputation actually it is more of symbol > for fear 8) I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - is clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though. Given the currently lacking kernel versioning (a major frustration for me and others that maintain stuff outside FreeBSD proper - I'd like to fetch the number for osreldate from and be done with it) the issue is only a userland issue, and smaller than it could be. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 01:12:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05589 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:12:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05582 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:12:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA08273; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:01:21 -0800 (PST) To: Eivind Eklund cc: Amancio Hasty , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:39:23 +0100." <19980303093923.52803@follo.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 01:01:21 -0800 Message-ID: <8270.888915681@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - is > clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce > incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though. Don't worry about it. The version is NOT going to change, period. It's going to be 3.0 no matter what the feature set is and I wonder why people are even wasting their time debating it because it's not even a subject which is open to debate. Hell will freeze over before I release a 2.5 or 2.3 or whatever you want to call it release, OK? :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 01:13:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05793 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:13:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05749 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:12:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-11.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.139]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA28009; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id BAA11800; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:08:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:08:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803030908.BAA11800@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: eivind@yes.no CC: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19980303093923.52803@follo.net> (message from Eivind Eklund on Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:39:23 +0100) Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - is * clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce * incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though. It's not only me. __FreeBSD__ is used in many places to distinguish between the two source trees, it's just suicidal to rewind it at this point. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 01:21:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07681 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:21:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07670; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:21:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id UAA14119; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:23:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803030923.UAA14119@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803030440.XAA00843@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 2, 98 11:40:21 pm" To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:23:27 +1100 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson wrote: > So will we in 3.0. (I already have the infrastructure, and work is kind > of in progress for a good API interface.) And it'll get a move on if we can just get current thread pointer updated on context switch. Remember that? Would begging do any good? 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 01:32:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA09436 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:32:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA09396 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00456; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:55:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803030855.AAA00456@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Eivind Eklund cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:39:23 +0100." <19980303093923.52803@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 00:55:50 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though. Oops, I don't want to give Satoshi a heart attack . Scratch the idea of switch 3.0 to 2.3 at least from my part. Regards, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 02:05:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA13228 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:05:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk ([195.78.64.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA13175; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:05:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00333; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:49:42 +0100 (CET) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Tom , "John S. Dyson" , Terry Lambert , smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:16:22 PST." <4479.888891382@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:49:42 +0100 Message-ID: <331.888911382@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <4479.888891382@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> How is it that Linux has moved so much faster in this area? Or have >> they? > >More monkeys? 10 monkeys, 4 minutes :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 02:09:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA13904 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA13882 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:09:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29785 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:09:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd029776; Tue Mar 3 03:09:34 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA26321 for current@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:09:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803031009.DAA26321@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Locking architecture document To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:09:33 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have put up a basic architecture document describing data structures and relationships. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find my best reference for inclusion; it basically describes the algorithm I want. http://www.freebsd.org/~terry/iml.txt Comments welcome. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 04:15:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA00700 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:15:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA00695 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from albast@xs4all.nl) Received: from xs2.xs4all.nl (albast@xs2.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.43]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24026 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:15:07 +0100 (MET) Received: (from albast@localhost) by xs2.xs4all.nl (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA25335 for current@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:15:06 +0100 (MET) From: albast Message-Id: <199803031215.NAA25335@xs2.xs4all.nl> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <19980303092719.58779@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Mar 3, 98 09:27:19 am" To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:15:06 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field > in the registration, where people could key in their credit card > number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further > FreeBSD development? > > It should in that case include some suggestions that would tempt > people to donate even if they can't donate a large amount e.g, "No > amount to small, no amount to large. Certain you can't spare $10 in > favour of faster SMP-developments?" > > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10, > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD. > Great idea! I would certainly donate if there would be some collaborate effort at funding the amount needed to seriously improve FreeBSD.. Makes sense. :-) --jeroen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 04:34:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02710 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:34:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cabri.obs-besancon.fr (cabri.obs-besancon.fr [193.52.184.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA02672 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:34:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr) Received: by cabri.obs-besancon.fr (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA22917; Tue, 3 Mar 98 13:37:30 +0100 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 13:37:30 +0100 Message-Id: <9803031237.AA22917@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: tomdean@ix.netcom.com Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803030143.RAA00750@ix.netcom.com> (message from Thomas Dean on Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:43:33 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current X-Mailer: Emacs Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> Thomas Dean writes: > Send a sample and I will try it. take ftp://ftp.obs-besancon.fr/pub/outgoing/jmz/pot.gz. Start gdb and just type 'file pot' Jean-Marc _____________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 04:40:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03790 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:40:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA03785 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:40:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id MAA22909; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:08:59 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803031108.MAA22909@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: albast@xs4all.nl (albast) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:08:58 +0100 (MET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803031215.NAA25335@xs2.xs4all.nl> from "albast" at Mar 3, 98 01:14:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10, > > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD. i thing these computation can be more realistic by asking WC how many copies of 2.2.5 RELEASE they have sold... (not to mention that i think some of the revenues for FreeBSD CDs already go into FreeBSD development...) cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 07:09:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22232 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:09:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22219 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14228; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:05:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karpen) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199803031505.QAA14228@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <19980303092719.58779@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Mar 3, 98 09:27:19 am" To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:05:32 +0100 (CET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Eivind Eklund: > On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:04:28AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Sponsors most welcome. > > Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field > in the registration, where people could key in their credit card > number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further > FreeBSD development? Nice idea. How about another? WC could sell stickers with a text like "I support the FreeBSD project", and maybe even subscriptions on said stickers. Say $5 (or volunteerly more) for a sticker, and people could buy as many as they wanted. And say that WC kept $.5 for each sticker and let the rest go to a special fund that is used soley for bailing people out of work for more or less long periods of time, so that we get more manhours into the project for tasks where it's needed, but not always available. I personally have a way too nice connection to the net to consider putting money into a CD, which I don't need and which just go out of date. I could very well see myself ordering a stickers or two, from time to time. After all, what's something like $20 per year for a lot of us? And it would just be encouraged, not required, right? So not a big problem for those without money :-) /Mikael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 07:15:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24014 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA24000 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:15:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13951; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:10:59 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA01208; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:10:58 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980303161057.26016@follo.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:10:57 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Luigi Rizzo , albast Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803031215.NAA25335@xs2.xs4all.nl> <199803031108.MAA22909@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199803031108.MAA22909@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>; from Luigi Rizzo on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:08:58PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:08:58PM +0100, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10, > > > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD. > > i thing these computation can be more realistic by asking WC how many > copies of 2.2.5 RELEASE they have sold... I'm not certain I agree. I'd donate more than $10, and I didn't buy any 2.2.5 CD-ROMs. I don't think $5M is realistic, but I think we could get a significant amount raised that way - at close to no cost. > (not to mention that i think some of the revenues for FreeBSD CDs > already go into FreeBSD development...) That's correct, AFAIK. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:00:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00244 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:00:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from neworder.cc.uky.edu (neworder.cc.uky.edu [128.163.18.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00237 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:00:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from soward@neworder.cc.uky.edu) Received: (from soward@localhost) by neworder.cc.uky.edu (8.8.7/8.8.8) id LAA02846 for current@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:04:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803031108.MAA22909@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:00:49 -0500 (EST) Organization: Univesity of Kentucky Technical Services From: John Soward To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Luigi Rizzo mentioned: >> > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10, >> > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD. > >i thing these computation can be more realistic by asking WC how many >copies of 2.2.5 RELEASE they have sold... (not to mention that >i think some of the revenues for FreeBSD CDs already go into FreeBSD >development...) > We have a large investment in FreeBSD here at UK. Currently our primary campus web server uses it (~1000 users), and our news server...and in a few weeks our 3 2,000 user pop mail system will be FreeBSD based. I can certainly come up with some sort of 'dontation', but, of course, I'll need some official 'proceedure' to deposit the funds that our purchasing department will grok...something like an 'enterprise subscription' to the CDs that's more a long the line of $1500/year instead of $150? -- John Soward JpS Sr. Systems Programmer 'The Midnight sun will burn you up.' University of Kentucky (NeXT and MIME mail OK) -R. Smith To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:05:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01494 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:05:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01446 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:05:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA03240; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:04:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA29061; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:04:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:04:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199803031604.JAA29061@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Michael Hancock Cc: Nate Williams , "John S. Dyson" , Terry Lambert , smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: References: <199803030519.WAA26387@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > I just found out that ODI's ObjectStore uses Transitive Closure > > > calculations to manage objects. They've got one of the fastest object db > > > implementations around for this and other reasons. > > > > Bwah, hah, hah, hah, hah. (Wiping tears from my eyes..) > > > > You've *GOT* to be kidding, right? ObjectStore is fast for a ObjectDB, > > but it's *darn* slow as compared to a relational DB, like Oracle and/or > > Informix. > > > > (We use their Java engine in our product, but speedy it ain't. And the > > locking in ObjectStore is useless at best. At least their payware Java > > DB has the ability to have more than one 'session' open on a DB at a > > time.) > > You're looking at the PSE which is completely different. You're playing > with a one user toy, a nice toy but still a toy. PSE/PRO is more than a one user toy. PSE is the one-user toy, PSE/PRO at least allows more than one session per process, unlike ObjectStore. > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much > faster. We've demo'd ObjectStore, and because of the 'one-process per DB' locking they have, it's basically useless. (And, the much faster we've not seen either.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:10:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02912 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02827 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:09:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA03276; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:09:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA29162; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:09:27 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:09:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199803031609.JAA29162@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Michael Hancock , current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net, Terry Lambert , "John S.Dyson" , Nate Williams Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much > > faster. > > Does it support a true relational model? Not really. > Purely OO database engine is > heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational. It depends. If you data is organized in such a manner that heirachial (sp?) data access is faster, then it's a win. But, if you end up having lots of 'built-in' relationships that aren't necessarily obvious or setup apriori from the objects themselves, then it can be *much* slower. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:40:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07083 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA07073 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA23366; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:08:50 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803031508.QAA23366@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: soward@uky.edu (John Soward) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:08:49 +0100 (MET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "John Soward" at Mar 3, 98 11:00:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I can certainly come up with some sort of 'dontation', but, of course, I'll need > some official 'proceedure' to deposit the funds that our purchasing department > will grok...something like an 'enterprise subscription' to the CDs that's more a > long the line of $1500/year instead of $150? why don't you just buy 10 subscriptions and give away the disks if you really don't want them. Surely there is a lot of profit on each CD so you'd still end up supporting the project without too many procedural complications. and you can always justify the expense by saying that you need to have the media around in all labs etc... cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:43:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07841 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ix.netcom.com (sil-wa5-09.ix.netcom.com [206.214.137.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07836 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:43:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from tomdean@localhost) by ix.netcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02175; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:42:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:42:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803031642.IAA02175@ix.netcom.com> From: Thomas Dean To: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <9803031237.AA22917@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> (message from Jean-Marc Zucconi on Tue, 3 Mar 98 13:37:30 +0100) Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I see your problem. Did you compile pot? What is the output of the build/make commands? tomdean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:51:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09751 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:51:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA09741 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA12825; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:50:19 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:50:19 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803031508.QAA23366@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Luigi Rizzo wrote: >why don't you just buy 10 subscriptions and give away the disks if >you really don't want them. Surely there is a lot of profit on >each CD so you'd still end up supporting the project without too >many procedural complications. > >and you can always justify the expense by saying that you need to have >the media around in all labs etc... I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.) I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying the big bucks for it. It'd be really easy to argue this both ways. Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:53:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10175 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:53:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10157; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01555; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:53:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803031653.LAA01555@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <8270.888915681@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 3, 98 01:01:21 am" To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:53:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: eivind@yes.no, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - is > > clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce > > incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though. > > Don't worry about it. The version is NOT going to change, period. > It's going to be 3.0 no matter what the feature set is and I wonder > why people are even wasting their time debating it because it's not > even a subject which is open to debate. Hell will freeze over before > I release a 2.5 or 2.3 or whatever you want to call it release, OK? :-) > I know that this message is redundant, but I want to chime in and say that I agree with JKH. This is one of those silly form/substance debates, where from a programming and software quality standpoint, the version number isn't important. There are practical reasons why 3.0 has to be it, and let's just move forward. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:54:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10353 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10291 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:54:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02225; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:53:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id KAA10264; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:52:44 -0600 Message-ID: <19980303105244.26509@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:52:44 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Nate Williams Cc: Michael Hancock , "John S. Dyson" , Terry Lambert , smp@csn.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803030519.WAA26387@mt.sri.com> <199803031604.JAA29061@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199803031604.JAA29061@mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Mar 03, 1998 at 09:04:05AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 03, 1998 at 09:04:05AM -0700, Nate Williams wrote: > > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much > > faster. > > We've demo'd ObjectStore, and because of the 'one-process per DB' > locking they have, it's basically useless. (And, the much faster we've > not seen either.) IIRC, U.Wisconsin attempted to benchmark several OO Database engines, and they ended up in a big argument with ODI. If I understand it correctly, the 007 benchmark did not show ODI performing very well, and ODI was claiming that the UW researchers showed bias in their benchmarks. See ftp://ftp.cs.wisc.edu/oo7/sigmod.ps -- Jonathan (who has no affiliation with the DB project at UW Madison) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 08:54:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10517 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:54:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10463 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA19022; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id KAA19656; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:23 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303105423.04044@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:23 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Brian Handy Cc: Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803031508.QAA23366@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Brian Handy on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 08:50:19AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 08:50:19AM -0800, Brian Handy wrote: > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > >why don't you just buy 10 subscriptions and give away the disks if > >you really don't want them. Surely there is a lot of profit on > >each CD so you'd still end up supporting the project without too > >many procedural complications. > > > >and you can always justify the expense by saying that you need to have > >the media around in all labs etc... > > I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD > people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.) > I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a > donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some > small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying > the big bucks for it. > > It'd be really easy to argue this both ways. > > Brian Well, the obvious question is: How much of what you spend on CDs goes to the FreeBSD project? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 09:09:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13219 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:09:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13212 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:09:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA23483; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:38:06 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803031538.QAA23483@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian Handy) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:38:06 +0100 (MET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brian Handy" at Mar 3, 98 08:50:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD > people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.) > I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a > donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some donation to whom ? Handling money etc has its costs, and for sure, apart from the significant investment in time and manpower of many developers, WC has the enormous merit of giving infrastructure support to the project, in the form of equipment, network access, advertisment, probably salaries to some people, etc. I do hope they (WC) get some good revenue from FreeBSD, so that the project can be seen as a profitable investment and get more resources. I am not even a customer, but very satisfied! cheers luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 09:12:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13757 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:12:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13712 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:12:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 1365 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 17:19:33 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803031609.JAA29162@mt.sri.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:19:33 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Nate Williams Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: Michael Hancock , current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net, Terry Lambert , "John S.Dyson" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Nate Williams wrote: >> > ODI's ObjectStore is faster than Oracle, Sybase, or Informix. Much >> > faster. >> >> Does it support a true relational model? > > Not really. > >> Purely OO database engine is >> heirarchial in nature and better be faster than a relational. > > It depends. If you data is organized in such a manner that heirachial > (sp?) data access is faster, then it's a win. But, if you end up having > lots of 'built-in' relationships that aren't necessarily obvious or > setup apriori from the objects themselves, then it can be *much* slower. I think we both agree that the potential for speed is there. Only problem is that a relational model is so convinient for so man y problems... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:11:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22733 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:11:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA22726 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:11:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA09689; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd009675; Tue Mar 3 10:09:54 1998 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:05:44 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Ollivier Robert cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 In-Reply-To: <19980303001626.A9433@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this week.. I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic? julian On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Ollivier Robert: > > Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I > > have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current > > and running/compiling some programs. > > And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-( > > > That's too random to get a clear picture. > > The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It > doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related. > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:16:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24211 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:16:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24201 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25539; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:15:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803031815.KAA25539@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Julian Elischer cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:05:44 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:15:54 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG He is experiencing the same panic which I reported to you and I am still experiencing over here. Amancio > ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this > week.. > I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic? > > > julian > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > According to Ollivier Robert: > > > Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I > > > have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current > > > and running/compiling some programs. > > > > And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-( > > > > > That's too random to get a clear picture. > > > > The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It > > doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related. > > -- > > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:20:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25628 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:20:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from miller.cs.uwm.edu (miller.cs.uwm.edu [129.89.139.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25599 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:20:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@miller.cs.uwm.edu) Received: (from james@localhost) by miller.cs.uwm.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02699; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:20:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:20:22 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Lowe Message-Id: <199803031820.MAA02699@miller.cs.uwm.edu> To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, mike@smith.net.au Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net, tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > To: Amancio Hasty > cc: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG, > jak@cetlink.net, opsys@mail.webspan.net, smp@csn.net > From: Mike Smith > > > You know there is the MBone for this sort of scenarios and it > > will not be difficult to setup world group meetings where > > folks can go attend the session for instance Whistle has or had > > a fine mbone tunnel . > > Hah. You forget that nobody outside the Bay area has the mbone > anymore, if they ever had it in the first place. > The Mbone seems to work fine here in the midwest. I have been watching places all over the world and listening to radio free vat with nearly 0% loss for over a week now. I guess it just depends on your service provider and how seriously they take running multicast. If they don't have enough bandwidth to properly exchange unicast traffic, they certainly aren't going to have enough for multicast traffic. -Jim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:21:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25806 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:21:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25758; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:21:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25580; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:20:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803031820.KAA25580@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "John S. Dyson" cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard), eivind@yes.no, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:53:30 EST." <199803031653.LAA01555@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:20:03 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At some point , I think it will be cool to have 4.0. Right now , 3.0 is the target for new and creative ideas 8) Cheers, Amancio > Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > > I'm somewhat frightened at the versioning issue - is > > > clearly marked with 3.0 vs 2.2, and renaming would introduce > > > incompatibilities. This is more of Satoshi's area, though. > > > > Don't worry about it. The version is NOT going to change, period. > > It's going to be 3.0 no matter what the feature set is and I wonder > > why people are even wasting their time debating it because it's not > > even a subject which is open to debate. Hell will freeze over before > > I release a 2.5 or 2.3 or whatever you want to call it release, OK? :-) > > > I know that this message is redundant, but I want to chime in and say that > I agree with JKH. This is one of those silly form/substance debates, where > from a programming and software quality standpoint, the version number isn't > important. There are practical reasons why 3.0 has to be it, and let's just > move forward. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:34:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28375 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA28360 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:34:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 13820 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 18:41:18 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303092719.58779@follo.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:41:18 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mikael Karpberg , "John S.Dyson" , Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Eivind Eklund wrote: ... > Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field > in the registration, where people could key in their credit card > number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further > FreeBSD development? It simply makes too much sense... Therfore, I'll extend the idea, borrowing from other projects; Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only $18,50. A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit to lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months. Any registered membe can vote on certain issues. A vote costs $5.00 (make more money this way :-) Aside from voting, members are entitled to bitching about the stability of current for free. All others must donate a non-refundable $3.00/complaint. Lifetime members can cross post their complaint to as many mailing lists as they want. To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs 35 times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting rights. > It should in that case include some suggestions that would tempt > people to donate even if they can't donate a large amount e.g, "No > amount to small, no amount to large. Certain you can't spare $10 in > favour of faster SMP-developments?" Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their favorite core member. > > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10, > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD. I think Steve would like this, but do not expect more than 2-6% of the users to respond. > Eivind, who can't easily come up with the required $1M himself at the > moment. Seriously folks, this is a good idea. I volunteer to assist Eivind in setting it up. I can provide the merchant account for Vias/MC, and the Internet presence. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:34:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28381 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28362 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:34:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA10399; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd010396; Tue Mar 3 10:24:21 1998 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:20:10 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Amancio Hasty cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 In-Reply-To: <199803031815.KAA25539@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG yep.. I got it stored away here.. will get to it in the next day or so.. (busy with an ISDN chip right now) On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > He is experiencing the same panic which I reported to you and I > am still experiencing over here. > > Amancio > > > ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this > > week.. > > I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic? > > > > > > julian > > > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > > > According to Ollivier Robert: > > > > Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I > > > > have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current > > > > and running/compiling some programs. > > > > > > And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-( > > > > > > > That's too random to get a clear picture. > > > > > > The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It > > > doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related. > > > -- > > > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > > > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:37:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28991 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28983 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:37:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02019; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:36:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803031836.NAA02019@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 10:41:18 am" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:36:16 -0500 (EST) Cc: eivind@yes.no, current@FreeBSD.ORG, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se, toor@dyson.iquest.net, phk@critter.freebsd.dk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro said: > > Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their > favorite core member. > Otherwise, if people don't donate, they get a picture of me, or worse, a penguin :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:38:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29557 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:38:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA29552 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:38:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 13908 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 18:45:29 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:45:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: John Soward Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 John Soward wrote: ... > We have a large investment in FreeBSD here at UK. Currently our primary > campus > web server uses it (~1000 users), and our news server...and in a few > weeks our 3 > 2,000 user pop mail system will be FreeBSD based. > > I can certainly come up with some sort of 'dontation', but, of course, > I'll need > some official 'proceedure' to deposit the funds that our purchasing > department > will grok...something like an 'enterprise subscription' to the CDs that's > more a > long the line of $1500/year instead of $150? As much as we are all indebted to WCCD for their fantastic support, this thread is about supporting the non-profit organization representing the users and developers of the software. Mixing it with WC CD sales will be wrong. Offering an independant CD will be even more wrong. I think a membership fee is the way to go. (I think I could start a little war right here, but will refrain :-) Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:41:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00323 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:41:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00302 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:41:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA06205; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:40:56 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:40:56 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803031836.NAA02019@dyson.iquest.net> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their >> favorite core member. >> >Otherwise, if people don't donate, they get a picture of me, or worse, >a penguin :-). ...and periodic mailings that if you don't send more money, we're sending you more photos of the core team. :-) Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:41:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00352 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:41:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00320 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:41:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25772; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:41:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803031841.KAA25772@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Julian Elischer cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:20:10 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:41:02 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Out of Context: I heard yesterday on a radio commercial : That the Interjet was so good to install that it was worth installing over and over again . Are you guys going to come out with an Interjet theme song 8) Back to the topic: It appears that the illegal access while copying an inode was more of a problem for Dyson . Cheers, Amancio > yep.. I got it stored away here.. > > will get to it in the next day or so.. > (busy with an ISDN chip right now) > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > He is experiencing the same panic which I reported to you and I > > am still experiencing over here. > > > > Amancio > > > > > ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this > > > week.. > > > I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic? > > > > > > > > > julian > > > > > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > > > > > According to Ollivier Robert: > > > > > Well, the machine crashed after just a few minutes after boot. Now that I > > > > > have rebooted, I've been running fine, receiving mails, CVSup'ing current > > > > > and running/compiling some programs. > > > > > > > > And crashed again just when I was about to leave :-( > > > > > > > > > That's too random to get a clear picture. > > > > > > > > The panic is random but it is always the same panic at the same place. It > > > > doesn't seem load-related or disk activity-related. > > > > -- > > > > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > > > > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:44:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01438 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:44:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01433 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:44:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25807 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:44:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803031844.KAA25807@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:45:29 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:44:29 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dear Santa , Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can have fine SMP granularity by Christmas? Thank You, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:52:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02492 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA02481 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:52:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 14136 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 18:59:26 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:59:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Brian Handy Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Brian Handy wrote: >>> Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their >>> favorite core member. >>> >>Otherwise, if people don't donate, they get a picture of me, or worse, >>a penguin :-). > > ...and periodic mailings that if you don't send more money, we're sending > you more photos of the core team. :-) Here are few more ideas: $3.00 gets you a window sticker (in a yelow diamond) ``This driver Carries only $29.95 worth of FreeBSD CD'' $5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' $25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and... Agree with Him'' The opportunities here are endless. Any Lawyer out there to incorporate, patent, copyright and declare these undoable? ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:54:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03038 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ve7tcp.ampr.org (ve7tcp.ampr.org [198.161.92.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03019 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org) Received: from localhost.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by ve7tcp.ampr.org (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA02533 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:54:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803031854.LAA02533@ve7tcp.ampr.org> X-Authentication-Warning: ve7tcp.ampr.org: localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: troff papers missing X-Attribution: VE7TCP X-URL: http://ve7tcp.ampr.org/ Organization: The Frobozz Magic Homing Pigeon Company Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:54:17 -0700 From: Lyndon Nerenberg Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Once upon a time (4.4Lite) the doc distribution contained a troff reference paper in the doc tree. This seems to be missing from 3.0. Am I blind, or was it removed? If it was nuked, why? (Troff reference manuals are getting as rare as original copies of the annotated 6th edition source ...) --lyndon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:54:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03067 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03039 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24284; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:15:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:15:25 -0500 (EST) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <199803031815.NAA24284@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Terry Lambert , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Patches in support of security In-Reply-To: References: <199803010139.SAA02325@usr04.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG < said: > This looks useful. (or at least is a useful first step) While some > policies may be enforced with creative firewall rules, these patches > provide a clean interface at the application level. This seems potentially acceptable. A couple of nits: 1) The socket option in question is clearly also applicable to UDP sockets (and those of any other IP-based protocol). It should be an IP-level option, not a TCP-level one. 2) Read style(9). -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 10:55:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03608 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:55:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03559 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:55:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02140; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:54:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803031854.NAA02140@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 10:59:26 am" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:54:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro said: > > $25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and... > Agree with Him'' > I don't know, maybe then, you get a penguin :-). (Sorry Terry!!!) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:02:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05508 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:02:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isvara.net (root@[130.88.148.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05483; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@challenge.isvara.net) Received: from challenge.isvara.net ([130.88.66.5]) by isvara.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06204; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:01:46 GMT Message-ID: <34FC539D.44DC7452@challenge.isvara.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:01:49 +0000 From: freebsd@isvara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Soward wrote: > We have a large investment in FreeBSD here at UK. Currently our primary campus > web server uses it (~1000 users), and our news server...and in a few weeks our 3 > 2,000 user pop mail system will be FreeBSD based. Similar situation here. Our universities use FreeBSD and Novell OSs for the servers. The admin people have identified that FreeBSD is far more stable and faster than Linux generally. There are close to 100K students in Manchester AFAIK, putting a large loading on the services offered. There are three main mail gateways (smarthosts), and all operate well. The local university networks comprise of four 100Mb FDDI rings (one per university) feeding into the 155Mb ATM Manchester backbone which connects to the Manchester Network Access Point (MaNAP) and two other core switching nodes for the academic community, via 155Mb ATM links. There are three DNS servers (all running FreeBSD), and are under very heavy load; All continously work perfectly. FreeBSD is well known for it's stability and performance operating as a server, and Manchester Computing uses it extensively. 8-) Well done FreeBSD team. Dan _____________________________________ Daniel J Blueman BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:03:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06124 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:03:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ix.netcom.com (sil-wa5-09.ix.netcom.com [206.214.137.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06096 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:03:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from tomdean@localhost) by ix.netcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03101; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:03:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:03:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803031903.LAA03101@ix.netcom.com> From: Thomas Dean To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199803031844.KAA25807@rah.star-gate.com> (message from Amancio Hasty on Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:44:29 -0800) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Dear Santa , > > Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can > have fine SMP granularity by Christmas? > > Thank You, > Amancio Me too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:11:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08290 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:11:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA08248 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:11:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA02102; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:08:42 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:08:42 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: Thomas Dean Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-Reply-To: <199803031903.LAA03101@ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can >> have fine SMP granularity by Christmas? Well, someone else sent in their $25 already and asked for a web search engine on ftp.freebsd.org: http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html :-) Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:14:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09086 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:14:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA09050 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:14:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 14575 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 19:21:17 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803031854.NAA02140@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:21:17 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, handy@sag.space.lockheed.com Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: > Simon Shapiro said: >> >> $25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and... >> Agree with Him'' >> > I don't know, maybe then, you get a penguin :-). (Sorry Terry!!!) Every 500th caller gets a Debian CD (to go with the Penguin). I think we are on a roll here. Great Ideas! ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:20:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11272 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:20:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from helmholtz.salk.edu (helmholtz.salk.edu [198.202.70.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11232 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bartol@salk.edu) Received: from dale.salk.edu (dale [198.202.70.112]) by helmholtz.salk.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA12929; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:18:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:18:44 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Bartol To: Thomas Dean cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-Reply-To: <199803031903.LAA03101@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not trying to play a status game here, but I'd be willing to contribute $100!!! I LOVE FreeBSD!!!! Tom On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Thomas Dean wrote: > > > > > Dear Santa , > > > > Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can > > have fine SMP granularity by Christmas? > > > > Thank You, > > Amancio > > Me too. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:27:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12360 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:27:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12354; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:27:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05384; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:27:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd005310; Tue Mar 3 12:27:43 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02248; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:27:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803031927.MAA02248@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:27:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, eivind@yes.no, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803031653.LAA01555@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 3, 98 11:53:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Don't worry about it. The version is NOT going to change, period. > > It's going to be 3.0 no matter what the feature set is and I wonder > > why people are even wasting their time debating it because it's not > > even a subject which is open to debate. Hell will freeze over before > > I release a 2.5 or 2.3 or whatever you want to call it release, OK? :-) > > I know that this message is redundant, but I want to chime in and say that > I agree with JKH. This is one of those silly form/substance debates, where > from a programming and software quality standpoint, the version number isn't > important. There are practical reasons why 3.0 has to be it, and let's just > move forward. Just to put this to rest, since I'm the one that suggested it, given the goals, it's not a good idea to rename the 3.0 to a lesser version. My primary concern was pushing SMP and other features out to 4.0. One of the suggestions was pushing out to 3.1 or 3.2; I could certainly live with that. It's unfortunate that most of the rational discussion occurred in private (or semi-private) email, where it was invisible to the place where the issue was first raised. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:36:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14257 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14250 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:36:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07905; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:36:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd007885; Tue Mar 3 12:36:44 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02971; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:36:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803031936.MAA02971@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Patches in support of security To: wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:36:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: winter@jurai.net, tlambert@primenet.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803031815.NAA24284@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Mar 3, 98 01:15:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > This looks useful. (or at least is a useful first step) While some > > policies may be enforced with creative firewall rules, these patches > > provide a clean interface at the application level. > > This seems potentially acceptable. A couple of nits: > > 1) The socket option in question is clearly also applicable to UDP > sockets (and those of any other IP-based protocol). It should be an > IP-level option, not a TCP-level one. The interface will come back untrusted if there is not a route for it available. I was trying to limit it to connected sockets. You could do connected sockets in a UDP client, but interface trust is much less useful for clients than it is for servers. I would even argue it's only useful for servers. I suppose if it were bound to a particular interface insetad of INADDR_ANY, a UDP server would be able to make the decision, but it could do so by grabbing the interface flags directly. I can add this code, if you want, but I didn't see it as being useful in a datagram environment. > 2) Read style(9). This is moderately bogus, if you are complaining about parenthesis placement in the (trivial) tcp_trusted function, since it's a new function. Also, read indent(1). If you are complaining about the lack of prototypes in the declaration, style(9) explicitly allows for matching the declaration style of the compilation unit. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:49:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16048 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA16040 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:49:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 15186 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 19:56:18 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803031927.MAA02248@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:56:18 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, eivind@yes.no, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, (John S. Dyson) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Terry Lambert wrote: ... > My primary concern was pushing SMP and other features out to 4.0. > One of the suggestions was pushing out to 3.1 or 3.2; I could > certainly live with that. Maybe we need to admit to ourselves, that there are certain tasks we cannot complete in reliable manner as a non-profit organization, so loosely knit. I think that an optimally designed SMP may be one such task. This aside from the fact that 95% of all FreeBSD SMP will run on a dual processor, will run single threaded applications, and the great improvement will be from 1.8 utilization factor to 1.99 - A whopping 5.5% in days where MIPS are cheaper than white bread. > It's unfortunate that most of the rational discussion occurred in private > (or semi-private) email, where it was invisible to the place where the > issue was first raised. We all behave in private quite dirrefently than in public. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:52:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17131 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:52:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16947; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:51:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803031951.LAA16947@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 10:59:26 am" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:51:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro wrote: > $25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and... > Agree with Him'' thanks gonna cost you more than $25.00 ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 11:52:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17266 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:52:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17204 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:52:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 15296 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 19:59:28 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:59:28 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Tom Bartol Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, Thomas Dean Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Tom Bartol wrote: > > Not trying to play a status game here, but I'd be willing to contribute > $100!!! I LOVE FreeBSD!!!! .... An auction! The wineer gets a Trophy that says ``I paid the most ($_____) for a free software! Anyone who thinks this is a good thing to do, pontact me via private mail, and we'll get a plan together, and submit it to the bosses for approval. In the meantime we can bring this mailing list back to what we all committed to have it contain. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:07:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20599 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:07:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20531 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:07:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id OAA12880; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:07:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303140740.47554@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:07:40 -0600 From: dannyman To: Brian Handy , Thomas Dean Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund References: <199803031903.LAA03101@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Brian Handy on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 11:08:42AM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 11:08:42AM -0800, Brian Handy wrote: > >> Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can > >> have fine SMP granularity by Christmas? > > Well, someone else sent in their $25 already and asked for a web search > engine on ftp.freebsd.org: > > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html Are all the donors listed at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook255.html#donors ??? I mean ... no wonder there's no SMP granularitygook yet. Geez ... What we should do, is get a Credit Card thing for FreeBSD and put that in sysinstall ... "register your donation now!" :) -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:13:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22341 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:13:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22271 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:13:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id OAA13860; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:12:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303141258.48777@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:12:58 -0600 From: dannyman To: Lyndon Nerenberg , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: troff papers missing References: <199803031854.LAA02533@ve7tcp.ampr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803031854.LAA02533@ve7tcp.ampr.org>; from Lyndon Nerenberg on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 11:54:17AM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 11:54:17AM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Once upon a time (4.4Lite) the doc distribution contained a > troff reference paper in the doc tree. This seems to be missing > from 3.0. Am I blind, or was it removed? If it was nuked, why? > (Troff reference manuals are getting as rare as original copies > of the annotated 6th edition source ...) Me too! Also, which is write, the man page stating 'troff -mmm' or the invocation that does work 'troff -mm' ? :) danny -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:13:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22479 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [195.1.171.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22412 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:13:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) From: sthaug@nethelp.no Received: (qmail 6309 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Mar 1998 20:13:15 +0000 (GMT) To: dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:07:40 -0600" References: <19980303140740.47554@urh.uiuc.edu> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.28.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:13:15 +0100 Message-ID: <6307.888955995@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Well, someone else sent in their $25 already and asked for a web search > > engine on ftp.freebsd.org: > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html > > Are all the donors listed at > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook255.html#donors ??? I mean ... no > wonder there's no SMP granularitygook yet. Geez ... > > What we should do, is get a Credit Card thing for FreeBSD and put that in > sysinstall ... "register your donation now!" :) I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller than the value of the check itself...) Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:19:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24173 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:19:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24116 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:19:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id VAA27210; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:18:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.8/keltia-2.13/nospam) id TAA23918; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:39:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980303193901.A23805@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:39:01 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: Julian Elischer Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 Mail-Followup-To: Julian Elischer , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <19980303001626.A9433@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Julian Elischer on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:05:44AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4103 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Julian Elischer: > ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this > week.. Thanks. As soon as I put softupdates on /news at home or on /home at work, it will panic. Without "noatime" it seems a bit more stable but it may be just masking the problem. > I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic? Except this particular panic, I'm very impressed and happy with softupdates. It is the last thing that refrain me to switch softupdates on all my filesystems. /dev/sd0a on / (local, writes: sync 59 async 7117) /dev/sd0s2e on /usr (local, writes: sync 2 async 3122) /dev/sd2s4a on /var (local, writes: sync 127777 async 49021) /dev/sd0s2f on /usr/local (local, writes: sync 110 async 7134) /dev/sd0s2g on /users (local, writes: sync 29107 async 31641) /dev/sd2s4e on /news (asynchronous, local, noatime, writes: sync 12047 async 38681) /dev/sd0s2h on /src (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 205) /dev/sd2s4d on /spare (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 24 async 530) /dev/sd0s2d on /work (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 277 async 4955) /dev/sd12a on /x (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 1474) /dev/sd2s4f on /y (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 0) /dev/sd1s1e on /z (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 0) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 12:19:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24385 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24376 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:19:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id OAA15063; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:19:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303141924.07830@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:19:24 -0600 From: dannyman To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund References: <19980303140740.47554@urh.uiuc.edu> <6307.888955995@verdi.nethelp.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <6307.888955995@verdi.nethelp.no>; from sthaug@nethelp.no on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 09:13:15PM +0100 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 09:13:15PM +0100, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier > for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention > the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller > than the value of the check itself...) That's right .. International users ... Over break, if nobody's beat me to it, late in March, I'll talk to my former employer about how one goes about getting a credit card thingus. I could envision a private company doing its part by acting as a fund-collecting proxy for FreeBSD ... CC registration can go to say, a loyal ISP who cuts a check every month to FreeBSD. And yes, it's a lot easier even for me in America to do credit card. Impulse purchase where i write a few numbers down, as opposed to going to an ATM to see if I have any money, digging up a security envelope and finding the stamp/address, etc ... I'd even be willing to "subscribe" $50/year or something. :) -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:07:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04498 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:07:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA04417 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from devet@adv.IAEhv.nl) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 11184 on Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:06:50 GMT; id VAA11184 efrom: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl; eto: UNKNOWN Received: (from devet@localhost) by adv.IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.6) id WAA02744; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:05:48 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:05:48 +0100 (CET) From: Arjan de Vet Message-Id: <199803032105.WAA02744@adv.IAEhv.nl> To: geoffb@chuggalug.clues.com Subject: Re: Pthreads in current X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd.current In-Reply-To: <199802271329.NAA01214@chuggalug.clues.com> Organization: Internet Access Eindhoven, the Netherlands Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <199802271329.NAA01214@chuggalug.clues.com> you write: > Playing with yesterdays current I notice the aparent absence of >pthread_attr_setscope and pthread_attr_setschedparam from libc_r. >The man page claims both are present :-) > > pthread_setschedparam is also missing but I suspect this may be >non standard? (Although both Sun and SGI seem to have implimented it) > > Is this by intention or just that no one has implimented them yet? I recently found another pthreads library at http://www.humanfactor.com/pthreads/ This library has all the extra functions Squid 1.2beta needs and I got Squid to compile with it without too much trouble. The first time I ran it it worked, after that I got strange errors every time I tried :-(. Don't know why yet. Arjan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:13:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06205 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luke.cpl.net (luke.cpl.net [209.150.92.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06150 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shawn@luke.cpl.net) Received: from localhost (shawn@localhost) by luke.cpl.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA06096; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:11:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:11:17 -0800 (PST) From: Shawn Ramsey To: Eivind Eklund cc: Luigi Rizzo , albast , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <19980303161057.26016@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > i thing these computation can be more realistic by asking WC how many > > copies of 2.2.5 RELEASE they have sold... > > I'm not certain I agree. I'd donate more than $10, and I didn't buy > any 2.2.5 CD-ROMs. I don't think $5M is realistic, but I think we I have been using FreeBSD for since 2.1.0, and have never purchased the CD. I would certainly donate $10 for the cause if I think it would make a difference. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:21:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08616 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:21:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA08550 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:21:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 16851 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 21:28:25 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303141924.07830@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:28:25 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: dannyman Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, sthaug@nethelp.no Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 dannyman wrote: > On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 09:13:15PM +0100, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > >> I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* >> easier >> for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to >> mention >> the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much >> smaller >> than the value of the check itself...) > > That's right .. International users ... > > Over break, if nobody's beat me to it, late in March, I'll talk to my > former > employer about how one goes about getting a credit card thingus. I have the ability to do that now. Seriously folks, if this is something useful, I'll do it. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:38:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13894 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:38:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13810 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:38:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfieber@indiana.edu) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10346; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:37:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:37:17 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: dannyman cc: Lyndon Nerenberg , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: troff papers missing In-Reply-To: <19980303141258.48777@urh.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, dannyman wrote: > Also, which is write, the man page stating 'troff -mmm' or the invocation > that does work 'troff -mm' ? :) The latter. The handiest resource I've found for [nt]roff is _Unix Text Processing_ by Daugherty and O'Reilly, published by Hayden Books. It is out of print, but you may still be able to get it...Powell's (www.powells.com) shows two copies available right now. -john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:48:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16436 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:48:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16430 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:48:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19201 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:48:35 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA01431; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:48:35 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980303224835.36978@follo.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:48:35 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: xlock freezes last two weeks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've had 3 or 4 freezes while the computer is in xlock these last two weeks; never happened before. All of them have been while the screensaver was that large circle-like thing (lots of line forming a complex circular pattern) with cycling. I've also had two crashes while doing large compiles. FreeBSD has been completely locked; not even answering pings. Anybody have a clue as to what could cause this? (dmesgs etc available on request - interesting hardware is PPro 200, Asus MB, Adaptec 2940, and Miro PCTV (brooktree driver)). The Miro was not in use (at least some of the time). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:49:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16576 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16550 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:49:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17979; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:30:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803032130.NAA17979@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: sthaug@nethelp.no cc: dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:13:15 +0100." <6307.888955995@verdi.nethelp.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:30:01 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier > for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention > the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller > than the value of the check itself...) Try a postal money order. Seriously, accepting credit card donations is expensive work. Aside from the 5% cut that the bank gets, you have to treat the money like it's on elastic. And unless you have someone else handling it for you, you won't get a bank's attention until you're talking in six figures a year. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:49:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16577 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shadow.worldbank.org (shadow.worldbank.org [138.220.104.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16539 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:49:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adhir@worldbank.org) Received: from localhost (adhir@localhost) by shadow.worldbank.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07030; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:47:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adhir@worldbank.org) X-Authentication-Warning: shadow.worldbank.org: adhir owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:47:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Alok K. Dhir" To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr cc: julian@whistle.com, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mind explaining what soft-updates does? On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 roberto@keltia.freenix.fr wrote: > > > According to Julian Elischer: > > ok, I'm going to get back to soft-updates in the second part of this > > week.. > > Thanks. > > As soon as I put softupdates on /news at home or on /home at work, it will > panic. Without "noatime" it seems a bit more stable but it may be just > masking the problem. > > > I hope that it's working well for you other than this panic? > > Except this particular panic, I'm very impressed and happy with > softupdates. It is the last thing that refrain me to switch softupdates on > all my filesystems. > > /dev/sd0a on / (local, writes: sync 59 async 7117) > /dev/sd0s2e on /usr (local, writes: sync 2 async 3122) > /dev/sd2s4a on /var (local, writes: sync 127777 async 49021) > /dev/sd0s2f on /usr/local (local, writes: sync 110 async 7134) > /dev/sd0s2g on /users (local, writes: sync 29107 async 31641) > /dev/sd2s4e on /news (asynchronous, local, noatime, writes: sync 12047 > async 38681) > /dev/sd0s2h on /src (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 205) > /dev/sd2s4d on /spare (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 24 async 530) > /dev/sd0s2d on /work (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 277 async 4955) > /dev/sd12a on /x (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 1474) > /dev/sd2s4f on /y (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 0) > /dev/sd1s1e on /z (local, soft-updates, writes: sync 4 async 0) > > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- > roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- \||/_ Alok K. Dhir Phone: +1.202.473.2446 oo \ R7-003, ITSMC Email: adhir@worldbank.org L_ The World Bank Group Washington, DC \/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------| "Unix _is_ user friendly - it just chooses friends selectively..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 13:52:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17822 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:52:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17767 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:52:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00577; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803032152.NAA00577@rah.star-gate.com> To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: dannyman , current@FreeBSD.ORG, sthaug@nethelp.no, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:28:25 PST." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <574.888961944.1@rah> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:52:24 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If you do setup the credit card thingy please let me know in advance so I can be the first one to donate 8) Regards, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:01:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19582 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:01:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [195.1.171.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA19569 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:01:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) From: sthaug@nethelp.no Received: (qmail 7808 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Mar 1998 22:00:52 +0000 (GMT) To: mike@smith.net.au Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:30:01 -0800" References: <199803032130.NAA17979@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.28.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:00:52 +0100 Message-ID: <7771.888962452@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier > > for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention > > the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller > > than the value of the check itself...) > > Try a postal money order. > > Seriously, accepting credit card donations is expensive work. Aside > from the 5% cut that the bank gets, you have to treat the money like > it's on elastic. I can believe that. However, if you want to get many people to donate, especially outside the US, I believe user convenience is a major point. With my VISA card, I could donate the money right here from my FreeBSD system. I have no particular fear of sending the credit card number on the net (I've already done this when buying FreeBSD t-shirts from WC :-). If I have to get a check from the bank, or a money order, it costs me extra time and money. Enough that I haven't done it so far. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:07:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21274 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:07:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA21236 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:07:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 17664 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 22:14:05 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803032152.NAA00577@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:14:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dannyman Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Amancio Hasty wrote: > If you do setup the credit card thingy please let me know > in advance so I can be the first one to donate 8) > > Regards, > Amancio I will. I will NOT do ANYTHING to represent FreeBSD unless comissioned in writing by the core team. To do so will be feloneous. Even if there is a written command.concent, I think that the management of the corporation taking in the money should investigate and understand what it all means. You can be a non-profit organization and take in a lot of money and be very profitable, but you better know what you are doing; Attonrney + CPA required. I volunteer to setup the operation, collect the funds, disburse it under CORE direction, etc. I will NOT make decisions for them. I can safely decide to take YOUR entry first though :-) ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:10:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22284 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:10:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22174 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA11860; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:08:52 -0800 (PST) To: Karl Denninger cc: Brian Handy , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:54:23 CST." <19980303105423.04044@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:08:52 -0800 Message-ID: <11855.888962932@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, the obvious question is: How much of what you spend on CDs goes to > the FreeBSD project? Impossible to quantify, really. They pay my salary and the saleries of two other folks who do only FreeBSD work. They house our machines (and generally buy us new ones when we need them), they give us network connectivity, they publish our newsletters and they pay our airfare and hotel costs when we go off to evangelize about FreeBSD. They also handle the "matching funds" arrangement for FreeBSD articles published, Sean Eric Fagin being the last one to reap this particular bounty for his Dr. Dobbs article. All these things benefit them as well in their CD sales, of course, but it's certainly true to say that if we were wholly independant, we'd have to scrape together the funding for such things ourselves and it wouldn't be cheap. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:13:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23111 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:13:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22992 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:12:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA11810; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:03:38 -0800 (PST) To: Brian Handy cc: Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:50:19 PST." Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:03:38 -0800 Message-ID: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD > people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.) > I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a > donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some > small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying > the big bucks for it. I think the real question we need to answer here is: Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different* subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was already factored in? If the answer to this question is a significant yes, I'll push with Walnut Creek CDROM to set something up. We are starting to get significant donations now and while we're still nowhere near the point where we could actually hire people with the funds available, that's definitely a goal of mine. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:15:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23949 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:15:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA23900; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:15:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA12910; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:14:54 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:14:54 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I think the real question we need to answer here is: > > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different* > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was > already factored in? Yea, I'd do this. Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:17:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24696 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:17:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24622 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:17:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA12003; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:16:42 -0800 (PST) To: Amancio Hasty cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:44:29 PST." <199803031844.KAA25807@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:16:42 -0800 Message-ID: <12000.888963402@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Dear Santa , > > Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can > have fine SMP granularity by Christmas? http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html#591 (section 17.2.6.1 of the handbook) :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:21:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25574 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:21:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25467 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:20:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA12029; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:19:33 -0800 (PST) To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Eivind Eklund , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mikael Karpberg , "John S.Dyson" , Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:41:18 PST." Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:19:33 -0800 Message-ID: <12025.888963573@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only $18,50. > A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit to > lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months. Sounds kinda scary, really - I think I'd break the donation blocks into more manageable chunks (and make the one year membership just a bit more - $10 is almost not even worth the handling fee). > Aside from voting, members are entitled to bitching about the stability of > current for free. All others must donate a non-refundable $3.00/complaint. > Lifetime members can cross post their complaint to as many mailing lists as > they want. Yeah, right. :-) I'm assuming you're not serious in that particular paragraph (and if you were, I'd demand $1,000,000 a year for the right to cross-post to as many mailing lists as they wanted - I HATE that :). > To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all > corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs 35 > times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting rights. That would be political suicide. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:22:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25994 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:22:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25960 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:22:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19444; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd019441; Tue Mar 3 14:11:02 1998 Message-ID: <34FC7EFC.237C228A@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:06:52 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Alok K. Dhir" CC: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alok K. Dhir wrote: > > Mind explaining what soft-updates does? > Soft Updates is a method of keeping track of teh dependencies within the metadata of a filesystem, so that you can ensure that at every stage, the on-disk image is consistent. It includes such techniques as temporarily backing out certain changes during disk writes, and queuing up a lot of extra information. This seems a lot of work, however the gain is that: 1/ after a crash fsck is not really required. (except to recover blocks marked in use but really freed in the last few seconds of running before the crash) 2/ The writes are ALL (unles you do a fsync()) done async, 3/ The dependencies automatically notice things like: "I'm about to write a file but it's already been deleted" and cancels the operation. 4/ metadata operations such as deletion are grouped up and done in bulk which is WAY faster. (that's just a quick start) julian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:27:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27334 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:27:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cabri.obs-besancon.fr (cabri.obs-besancon.fr [193.52.184.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA27265 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:27:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr) Received: by cabri.obs-besancon.fr (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA26038; Tue, 3 Mar 98 23:30:02 +0100 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 23:30:02 +0100 Message-Id: <9803032230.AA26038@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: tomdean@ix.netcom.com Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803031642.IAA02175@ix.netcom.com> (message from Thomas Dean on Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:42:18 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: gdb broken in -current X-Mailer: Emacs Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> Thomas Dean writes: > I see your problem. > Did you compile pot? What is the output of the build/make commands? It is created with a command like c++ -o pot pot.cc Matrice.o c.o -L/home/jmz/eigen -L/usr/local/lib\ -leigen -leispack -llapack -lblas -lf2c -lm I can provide the sources, the only problem is that it requires several external libs. Jean-Marc _____________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:29:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28039 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:29:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mn26hp6.honeywell.com (mn26hp6.honeywell.com [129.30.4.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27803; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:29:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com) Received: from localhost by mn26hp6.honeywell.com with SMTP (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA131274119; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:28:39 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:28:39 -0600 (CST) From: Shawn Leas To: Brian Handy Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Donations (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG And I too, would subscribe. Maybe even a lifetime membership as previously suggested. I also think, however, it's time to change the name of this thread. Maybe include -questions in the discussion, too? (If it isn't already, I haven't been paying significant attention) Kudos to WC, for there support to the project. Shawn On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Brian Handy wrote: > >I think the real question we need to answer here is: > > > > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different* > > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was > > already factored in? > > > Yea, I'd do this. > > > > Brian > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:34:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29201 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:34:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA29126 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:34:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 18295 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 22:41:17 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <12025.888963573@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:41:17 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , "John S.Dyson" , Mikael Karpberg , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only >> $18,50. >> A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit to >> lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months. > > Sounds kinda scary, really - I think I'd break the donation blocks > into more manageable chunks (and make the one year membership just a > bit more - $10 is almost not even worth the handling fee). I think the processing fee is about 2.9%. There is a transaction fee of $0.50, or so. The main problem is in clearing. If we want an SSL clearance, it is expensive. If we just provide a secure channel to pass credit cards unmolested, it will be much cheaper. The number of bounces and disputes is exponentially tied to the cost of the transactions. Why am I telling YOU that? Your company does more of these transactions in a day than I did in a year... >> Aside from voting, members are entitled to bitching about the stability >> of >> current for free. All others must donate a non-refundable >> $3.00/complaint. >> Lifetime members can cross post their complaint to as many mailing lists >> as >> they want. > > Yeah, right. :-) > > I'm assuming you're not serious in that particular paragraph (and if you > were, I'd demand $1,000,000 a year for the right to cross-post to as many > mailing lists as they wanted - I HATE that :). I am not. But I think we should consider some ``deliverables'' for the membership. The AARP gives you a discount card (for their overpried pharmacy), the NRA gives you a sticker and a cap. Most charities guarantee that they will flood you with guilt generating material from other charities, and a picture of a sad child (who will smile once your money comes in), etc. We cannot make the source part of the deliverables. Discounting the CD's is out of the question, because this will make your company donate even more. We need something. Remember what the X consortium did (still do?)? Those who forgot; In FreeBSD terms, only consortium members have access to current. non members get only access to -stable. Bad idea... >> To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all >> corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs 35 >> times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting >> rights. > > That would be political suicide. That was another attempt to be funny. To be serious, you have to decide what is to be voted on. Avoid the Debians... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:35:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29480 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:35:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.lustig.com (gate.lustig.com [205.246.2.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA29404 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:35:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from barry@lustig.com) Received: (qmail 16771 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1998 22:27:39 -0000 Received: from devious.lustig.com (205.246.2.244) by gate.lustig.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1998 22:27:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 1134 invoked by uid 21); 3 Mar 1998 22:27:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19980303222750.1133.qmail@devious.lustig.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach v148) Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <34FC7EFC.237C228A@whistle.com> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.2mach (Enhance 2.1) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148.RR) From: Barry Lustig Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 17:27:49 -0500 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 Reply-To: barry@lustig.com References: <34FC7EFC.237C228A@whistle.com> X-Organizations: Barry Lustig & Associates, Inc. Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is anyone planning on back-porting soft-updates to 2.5.X? barry On Tue, 03 Mar 1998, Julian Elischer wrote: > Alok K. Dhir wrote: > > Mind explaining what soft-updates does? > > > > Soft Updates is a method of keeping track of teh dependencies > within the metadata of a filesystem, so that you can ensure > that at every stage, the on-disk image is consistent. It > includes such techniques as temporarily backing out certain > changes during disk writes, and queuing up a lot > of extra information. > > This seems a lot of work, however the gain is that: > 1/ after a crash fsck is not really required. > (except to recover blocks marked in use but really freed in > the last few seconds of running before the crash) > 2/ The writes are ALL (unles you do a fsync()) done async, > 3/ The dependencies automatically notice things like: > "I'm about to write a file but it's already been deleted" > and cancels the operation. > 4/ metadata operations such as deletion are grouped up and > done in bulk which is WAY faster. > > (that's just a quick start) > > julian > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:35:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29568 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ix.netcom.com (sil-wa5-09.ix.netcom.com [206.214.137.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29491; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:35:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from tomdean@localhost) by ix.netcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03721; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:35:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomdean) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:35:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803032235.OAA03721@ix.netcom.com> From: Thomas Dean To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@freebsd.org) Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Jordan, I get a lot out of FreeBSD. The people working on FreeBSD have helped me lots. I don't know about subscription. The subscription rates are about $45 per year, assuming 3 updates per year. I would be willing to kick in $50 to $100 a year directly to the team, no CD's. Possibly more, it there is more rapid advancement. I have purchased two FreeBSD CD's. However, I get the updates I want from the net. I really don't need more CD's. If I want one, it is only $30+-. I would go for something that gives 5% to a handler and the remainder to the team. Is this possible? tomdean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:38:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00602 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00513 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:38:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA12167; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:37:15 -0800 (PST) To: freebsd@isvara.net cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:01:49 GMT." <34FC539D.44DC7452@challenge.isvara.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:37:15 -0800 Message-ID: <12163.888964635@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > FreeBSD is well known for it's stability and performance operating as a serve r, and > Manchester Computing uses it extensively. 8-) "Go Manchester United!" :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:41:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01484 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:41:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01429; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20227; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd020224; Tue Mar 3 14:31:01 1998 Message-ID: <34FC83AA.2F1CF0FB@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:26:50 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Brian Handy , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD > > people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.) > > I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a > > donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some > > small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying > > the big bucks for it. > > I think the real question we need to answer here is: > > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different* > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was > already factored in? I think that this is a better idea because thte cost of the visa transaction is already factored into the cost of the cdrom. I think that an option to donate some extra directly to the freebsd.org when you buy a cdrom would be a very easy way of allowing people to donate.. I don't know that it should be limited to subscriptions. > > If the answer to this question is a significant yes, I'll push with > Walnut Creek CDROM to set something up. > > We are starting to get significant donations now and while we're still > nowhere near the point where we could actually hire people with the > funds available, that's definitely a goal of mine. > > Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:43:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02022 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:43:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01902 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:42:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA12211; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:39:28 -0800 (PST) To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: "John S. Dyson" , current@FreeBSD.ORG, handy@sag.space.lockheed.com Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:21:17 PST." Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:39:28 -0800 Message-ID: <12208.888964768@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Every 500th caller gets a Debian CD (to go with the Penguin). > > I think we are on a roll here. Great Ideas! Uhhh.. I think we are on drugs here - is this the silly season or WHAT folks? :-) JOrdan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:43:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02031 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:43:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01942 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:42:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA12075; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:22:56 -0800 (PST) To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:59:26 PST." Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:22:56 -0800 Message-ID: <12072.888963776@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The opportunities here are endless. Any Lawyer out there to incorporate, > patent, copyright and declare these undoable? I'm not a lawyer, but I'd like to declare them undoable on account of the fact that they're all unbelievably stupid. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:43:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02051 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:43:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mn26hp6.honeywell.com (mn26hp6.honeywell.com [129.30.4.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01685; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:42:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com) Received: from localhost by mn26hp6.honeywell.com with SMTP (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA143064892; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:41:32 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:41:32 -0600 (CST) From: Shawn Leas To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Eivind Eklund , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mikael Karpberg , "John S.Dyson" , Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <12025.888963573@time.cdrom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only $18,50. > > A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit to > > lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months. > > Sounds kinda scary, really - I think I'd break the donation blocks > into more manageable chunks (and make the one year membership just a > bit more - $10 is almost not even worth the handling fee). Maybe the membership thing is a little inflexible, however, if you want to donate, donate! Membership doesn't have to be the only way to contribute. > I'm assuming you're not serious in that particular paragraph (and if you > were, I'd demand $1,000,000 a year for the right to cross-post to as many > mailing lists as they wanted - I HATE that :). Selling exemption to netiquete is panamount to the pope selling forgiveness in the old days of the catholic church. (Please don't take this as a flame, catholics, it's just historical fact) I think the price should be $1,000,000,000. > > To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all > > corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs 35 > > times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting rights. Reject donations??? Maybe from Chinese interests who just want political influence. Shawn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:45:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02941 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:45:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02843 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:45:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 18483 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 22:52:26 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <12072.888963776@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:52:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> The opportunities here are endless. Any Lawyer out there to >> incorporate, >> patent, copyright and declare these undoable? > > I'm not a lawyer, but I'd like to declare them undoable on account > of the fact that they're all unbelievably stupid. :-) Of course they are. What kind of a reason is that? The concept is not bad. Is it? ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:46:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03349 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:46:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03192; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:46:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id QAA12818; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:46:09 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303164608.27117@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:46:08 -0600 From: dannyman To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Karl Denninger Cc: Brian Handy , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <19980303105423.04044@mcs.net> <11855.888962932@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <11855.888962932@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:08:52PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:08:52PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: [... walnut creek rules ...] > All these things benefit them as well in their CD sales, of course, > but it's certainly true to say that if we were wholly independant, > we'd have to scrape together the funding for such things ourselves and > it wouldn't be cheap. /me whispers "maybe walnut creek could process CC donmations too, for a small fee." -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:48:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03826 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:48:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03664; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:47:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id QAA13079; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:47:29 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303164728.54615@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:47:28 -0600 From: dannyman To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brian Handy Cc: Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:03:38PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:03:38PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I think the real question we need to answer here is: > > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different* > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was > already factored in? I would subscribe to a subscription plan whose purpose was solely a donation to FreeBSD. If you really wanna send me a CD though, I wouldn't mind. :) -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:51:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04927 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:51:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA04867 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:51:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 18634 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 22:58:02 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803032229.XAA16941@ocean.campus.luth.se> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:58:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mikael Karpberg Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Mikael Karpberg wrote: ... > Do you have the means to set a secure-http server with a link from the > somewhere on www.freebsd.org, and just have a form where you fill in > a credicard number and an amount, actually get that money into an > account? I have at least two servers which are physically as secure as I am. The link to them is secure too. Once they hit the Internet ... ? But the servers are both in my home, so it is as good as it gets. > What creditcards would you be able to handle? > VISA is all _I_ need, but... :-) Vias and MC. AmEx is too expensive, picky, snooty, and requires their own clearance center. > How big/small payments would this have to be for the bank to cash them, > etc? Zero and up. Anything smaller than $2.50 or so is a nag but they are used to it. > I mean, if you could actually get something togather that works fairly > well, > (and we can trust you :) then I don't think the coreteam would MIND a > little funds rolling in. ;-) Now, this is a tough question :-) Trust is subjective. The last thing I have stolen is my wife's heart. I still have it. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:54:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06196 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:54:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA06095 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 2752 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 22:54:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19980303235410.23680@paert.tse-online.de> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:54:10 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund References: <199803031844.KAA25807@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199803031844.KAA25807@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:44:29AM -0800 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Dear Santa , > Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can > have fine SMP granularity by Christmas? ... naturally as stable as 2.2-stable. hmm, I would throw another $100 if the christmas-release would come additionally with a 'real-locking' NFS-Server and 100%-stable NFS-V3-Client. -ab -- /// We do it with FreeBSD/SMP /// ---------------------------------------- /// http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 14:59:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07545 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:59:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07501 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:59:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA12439; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:57:26 -0800 (PST) To: Mike Smith cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:30:01 PST." <199803032130.NAA17979@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:57:26 -0800 Message-ID: <12436.888965846@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Seriously, accepting credit card donations is expensive work. Aside > from the 5% cut that the bank gets, you have to treat the money like > it's on elastic. > > And unless you have someone else handling it for you, you won't get a > bank's attention until you're talking in six figures a year. It's not a problem - WC has already agreed to handle this for us, we just never followed through with the appropriate information being made available to the user base. See previous mail about this one - I'm moving forward with it now. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:00:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08125 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:00:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA08057 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:00:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 18814 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 23:07:26 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:07:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Shawn Leas Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: Eivind Eklund , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mikael Karpberg , "John S.Dyson" , Poul-Henning Kamp , "Jordan K.Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Shawn Leas wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> > Offer membership. 1 year membership is $10.00, two years for only >> > $18,50. >> > A lifetime membership for a nice, round $1,000.00. People can commit >> > to >> > lifetime membership by sending $25.00/month for 40 months. >> >> Sounds kinda scary, really - I think I'd break the donation blocks >> into more manageable chunks (and make the one year membership just a >> bit more - $10 is almost not even worth the handling fee). > > Maybe the membership thing is a little inflexible, however, if you want > to donate, donate! Membership doesn't have to be the only way to > contribute. Of course you are right. We will take any legal money from anyone who gives it to us. >> I'm assuming you're not serious in that particular paragraph (and if you >> were, I'd demand $1,000,000 a year for the right to cross-post to as >> many >> mailing lists as they wanted - I HATE that :). > > Selling exemption to netiquete is panamount to the pope selling > forgiveness in the old days of the catholic church. (Please don't take > this as a flame, catholics, it's just historical fact) I think the price > should be $1,000,000,000. Lighten up, people. I wanted Jordan to respond. I got his response. I't is a joke. The serious part is coming up with a series of incentives. Remember, the number of eager contributors is less than a thousand. At $10.00 a pop, this will keep Steve in the SMP business for 2 days (at his rates :-). We need to attract the reluctant, the lazy, the indifferent. This will take some doing. Now that you all agree which is absurd, immoral, crazy, suecidal, etc. Come up with real suggestions. >> > To keep the project socialistically correct, we reject any and all >> > corportate donations. Or, we may say that corporate membership costs >> > 35 >> > times more than an individual membership and carries 1/3 the voting >> > rights. > > Reject donations??? Maybe from Chinese interests who just want > political influence. You are tempting an old anarchist here... :-) Chinees donations are FINE in my opinion. this is not Washington DC. Core members will NOT be baught for mere money. Neither will the voters. Besides, it is open books all the way. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:02:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08717 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:02:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08619 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:02:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16941; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:29:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karpen) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199803032229.XAA16941@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 02:14:05 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:29:37 +0100 (CET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Simon Shapiro: > I volunteer to setup the operation, collect the funds, disburse it under > CORE direction, etc. I will NOT make decisions for them. Do you have the means to set a secure-http server with a link from the somewhere on www.freebsd.org, and just have a form where you fill in a credicard number and an amount, actually get that money into an account? What creditcards would you be able to handle? VISA is all _I_ need, but... :-) How big/small payments would this have to be for the bank to cash them, etc? I mean, if you could actually get something togather that works fairly well, (and we can trust you :) then I don't think the coreteam would MIND a little funds rolling in. ;-) /Mikael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:05:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09480 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (root@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09374; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:04:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mestery@mail.winternet.com) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22236; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:23:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma022018; Tue, 3 Mar 98 16:22:35 -0600 Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA11193; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:22:34 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: tundra.winternet.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:22:34 -0600 (CST) From: Kyle Mestery To: Brian Handy cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Brian Handy wrote: > >I think the real question we need to answer here is: > > > > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different* > > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was > > already factored in? > > > Yea, I'd do this. > Count me in also. -- Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Network Systems Group "Keep honking, I'm reloading." "Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:11:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10908 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:11:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10817; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:11:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id RAA17488; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:11:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303171106.18217@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:11:06 -0600 From: dannyman To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Shawn Leas Cc: Eivind Eklund , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mikael Karpberg , "John S.Dyson" , Poul-Henning Kamp , "Jordan K.Hubbard" Subject: FreeBSD Fund References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 03:07:26PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 03:07:26PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > Lighten up, people. I wanted Jordan to respond. I got his response. > I't is a joke. The serious part is coming up with a series of incentives. > Remember, the number of eager contributors is less than a thousand. At > $10.00 a pop, this will keep Steve in the SMP business for 2 days (at his > rates :-). We need to attract the reluctant, the lazy, the indifferent. > This will take some doing. Now that you all agree which is absurd, > immoral, crazy, suecidal, etc. Come up with real suggestions. given that Windows95 costs like $80 or something at the store, i would expect better educated people who are more heavily in to computers would think FreeBSD is worth a little more than $10. I'm thinking $50, but that's because I'm a poor college student. Reluctant, lazy and indifferent is not yet our userbase. While an option in sysinstall that promises tote bags and plush demons would be ideal, I think a lot of us would at least for the time being be content with an SSL web form where we plug in our credit card number. Let's get the walking down before we start running flat out on this eh? :) -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:14:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11795 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:14:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA11713 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:14:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 3137 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 23:14:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19980304001431.28327@paert.tse-online.de> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:14:31 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Brian Handy on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:14:54PM -0800 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different* > > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was > > already factored in? > Yea, I'd do this. me too. (no, ... I'm not posting from aol ;-)) It's definitly the easiest way to pay for free software. (for me) We're a quite young business and can't spend really much money on FreeBSD. Everybody - including some of our shareholders - knows that FreeBSD (our strategic server-platform) is a free piece of software. If I would donate a significant amount of money to the FreeBSD-project for appearantly no reason, they would ask me about that (for sure :() I would have no problems with the following solutions: - some kind of 'high-end' / 'premier-support' subscription for the release-CDs - printed documentation - membership in some kind of 'user group' -ab -- /// TSE TeleService GmbH | Gsf: Arne Reuter | /// Hovestrasse 14 | Andreas Braukmann | We do it with /// D-48351 Everswinkel | HRB: 1430, AG WAF | FreeBSD/SMP /// ------------------------------------------------------------------- /// PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key /// Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:27:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14620 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14614 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:27:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA12744 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:26:41 -0800 (PST) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Donations. Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:26:41 -0800 Message-ID: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm not sure if this made it out and I don't see it in the archive, so... [gotta check my mailer - this has been happening a lot lately] Just to recap our discussion so far and then we can (hopefully) get back to the business of discussing -current: 1. I can accept the following credit cards: American Express Carte Blanche Diners Club Discover Euro Card JCB Master Card Visa I just need to get the appropriate details ironed out as to what the customer will put on the debit so that Walnut Creek CDROM knows that it's going to us. 2. We will be setting things up so that donations may be given over the phone, in PGP encrypted email or via a secure web server. The infrastructure for doing all of this already exists, we just need to enter a new order code type so that WC can keep the transactions straight. 3. I will be looking into the possibility of a "super subscription" which includes a donation. I will also look into putting some sort of checkbox item next to the appropriate FreeBSD CD order forms which say something like "Would you like to include a donation to the FreeBSD Project?" and gives you a place to fill in the amount. I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments. Anything else while we're on the topic? :) Thanks. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:40:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17714 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:40:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pop.uniserve.com (pop.uniserve.com [204.244.156.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA17702; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@uniserve.com) Received: from shell.uniserve.com [204.244.186.218] by pop.uniserve.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #4) id 0yA1H9-00026F-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:39:07 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:39:05 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-Reply-To: <12436.888965846@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm not much interested in CD subscriptions, as they are out of date by the time they arrive. What about a special net subscription, which gives you a login id and password for a FTP/WWW server that gives you guarrenteed access? I hate it when I need to get something (last time was a copy of committlogs to see what had changes in libc_r), and ftp.freebsd.org is full. Also, another subscription service that would interesting in binary patchkits via the net. Send out e-mail to paying members notifying of them of significant patch kits available, and provide a single command interface for install. You'd have to pay for a part-time person to keep together a patch-building system though. I personally spend a _lot_ of resources doing this via buildworld, installworld, etc. I wonder how many more companies do this. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:41:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17994 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17965 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:41:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20763; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:38:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com> To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:59:26 PST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:38:10 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' That'll be sure to kill it. :-) -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:46:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18815 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:46:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mn26hp6.honeywell.com (mn26hp6.honeywell.com [129.30.4.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18653 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:45:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com) Received: from localhost by mn26hp6.honeywell.com with SMTP (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA205778607; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:43:27 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:43:27 -0600 (CST) From: Shawn Leas To: Simon Shapiro Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > On 03-Mar-98 Shawn Leas wrote: > > Selling exemption to netiquete is panamount to the pope selling > > forgiveness in the old days of the catholic church. (Please don't take > > this as a flame, catholics, it's just historical fact) I think the price > > should be $1,000,000,000. > > Lighten up, people. I wanted Jordan to respond. I got his response. > I't is a joke. The serious part is coming up with a series of incentives. > Remember, the number of eager contributors is less than a thousand. At > $10.00 a pop, this will keep Steve in the SMP business for 2 days (at his > rates :-). We need to attract the reluctant, the lazy, the indifferent. > This will take some doing. Now that you all agree which is absurd, > immoral, crazy, suecidal, etc. Come up with real suggestions. Hey man, just having fun! OK, suggestion #1: BEWARE: RANTINGS OF A BORED DEPRIVED CAFFEINE ADDICT AHEAD I saw mentioned before a "corporate" membership. Hey, I kinda like the idea. Maybe a new members-only mailing list dedicated to the support of corporate members would attract the corporate sector. As long as it is exclusive, (I know, I'm selling my soul to corp. america) big companies like that. Heavily push the warm fuzy fealing of the resource being there, just for you, the member. Whether FreeBSD Inc is contractually obligated to solve your problem or not, I think it is a big selling (*oops*, there's that word) point. > > Reject donations??? Maybe from Chinese interests who just want > > political influence. > > You are tempting an old anarchist here... :-) Chinees donations are FINE > in my opinion. this is not Washington DC. Core members will NOT be baught > for mere money. Neither will the voters. Besides, it is open books all > the way. C'mon, now, I didn't mean to raise anyones ire. And you're right, this is NOT DC. At least our guys have souls, and I am sure that they are far from selling them, too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:49:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19341 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:49:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19336; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:49:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA12927; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:48:10 -0800 (PST) To: Tom cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:39:05 PST." Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:48:10 -0800 Message-ID: <12923.888968890@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What about a special net subscription, which gives you a login id and > password for a FTP/WWW server that gives you guarrenteed access? I hate > it when I need to get something (last time was a copy of committlogs to > see what had changes in libc_r), and ftp.freebsd.org is full. Hmmm. I'd sooner set up another FTP server - I really don't want to get into anything which creates a set of "haves and have-nots", even if the haves have spent money for it, since things start to get a little dubious at that point. A one-time gift for a donation is one thing, but as soon as you start having FreeBSD more accessible to those who've paid or put special features in it that only paid customers can have (modulo 3rd party stuff where you've no choice), people start wondering whether you're a free software project anymore. I'm not denying the potential value of this to frustrated "I can't get into ftp.freebsd.org and I paid them ten bucks!" customers, I'm simply saying that we have to be careful. If people are having serious trouble in getting the bits then we simply need to get more boxes built and shipped off to various sympathetic ISPs. Perhaps FreeBSD, Inc. can look into doing that with some of its funds if this is a serious problem. > Also, another subscription service that would interesting in binary > patchkits via the net. Send out e-mail to paying members notifying of > them of significant patch kits available, and provide a single command *shudder*. :-) Again, I can see the value in it but it would be a hellish job for such a person. I'll keep it in mind but not too much in mind. :) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:53:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20679 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:53:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20618; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:53:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01346; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:53:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803032353.PAA01346@rah.star-gate.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:26:41 PST." <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1343.888969221.1@rah> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:53:41 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yeap, I would like to see one of those fancy java news sticker. Who knows maybe Yahoo wold care to donate theirs. Whats the connection with the FreeBSD Fund Raising Project? Simple spread the word . Maybe we could even extent the news sticker idea to a world wide local news network complet with AD space. For now, the news sticker , should we decide is a cool idea , should go on www.freebsd.org . Well, okay I am not much of news clip artist. I am sure we have journalists in the house. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 15:57:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21761 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:57:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.scitec.com.au (firewall-user@fgate.scitec.com.au [203.17.180.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21729 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:57:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john.saunders@scitec.com.au) Received: by firewall.scitec.com.au; id JAA26711; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:57:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from mailhub.scitec.com.au(203.17.180.131) by fgate.scitec.com.au via smap (3.2) id xma026700; Wed, 4 Mar 98 09:56:51 +1000 Received: from hydra.scitec.com.au (hydra.scitec.com.au [203.17.182.101]) by mailhub.scitec.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA11408; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:56:48 +1000 Received: from scitec.com.au (saruman.scitec.com.au) by hydra.scitec.com.au with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA215879406; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:56:47 +1100 Message-Id: <34FC98BF.7692542E@scitec.com.au> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:56:47 +1100 From: John Saunders Organization: SCITEC LIMITED X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mikael Karpberg , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803031505.QAA14228@ocean.campus.luth.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikael Karpberg wrote: > How about another? WC could sell stickers with a text like > "I support the FreeBSD project"... How 'bout T shirts as well...or are these already available. I'm geeky enough to wear one (but not black) in the right company ;-) I would also like "Powered by FreeBSD" stickers to put on my ISP servers to make it plainly obvious what is being used when we show people around. A bit like the Intel Pentium Inside stickers. If putting a few bucks in is what it will take to get stable (not neccessarily fine grained) SMP into the kernel ASAP then my ISP will donate. I've got a Tyan Tomcat server just itching for it, and I'm considering a dual P-II for myself at home :-) Cheers. -- +------------------------------------------------------------+ . | John Saunders mailto:John.Saunders@scitec.com.au (Work) | ,--_|\ | mailto:john@nlc.net.au (Home) | / Oz \ | http://www.nlc.net.au/~john/ | \_,--\_/ | SCITEC LIMITED Phone +61 2 9428 9563 Fax +61 2 9428 9933 | v | "By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends." | +------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:01:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22565 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:01:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pop.uniserve.com (pop.uniserve.com [204.244.156.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA22516; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:00:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@uniserve.com) Received: from shell.uniserve.com [204.244.186.218] by pop.uniserve.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #4) id 0yA1bs-0004J4-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:00:32 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:00:30 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-Reply-To: <12923.888968890@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > What about a special net subscription, which gives you a login id and > > password for a FTP/WWW server that gives you guarrenteed access? I hate > > it when I need to get something (last time was a copy of committlogs to > > see what had changes in libc_r), and ftp.freebsd.org is full. > > Hmmm. I'd sooner set up another FTP server - I really don't want to Ok, doesn't really matter. > get into anything which creates a set of "haves and have-nots", even It wouldn't be the "haves" and "have-nots", just the "right now", "maybe now" group. Everyone can get the same stuff. ... > > Also, another subscription service that would interesting in binary > > patchkits via the net. Send out e-mail to paying members notifying of > > them of significant patch kits available, and provide a single command > > *shudder*. :-) > > Again, I can see the value in it but it would be a hellish job for such > a person. I'll keep it in mind but not too much in mind. :) Wasn't someone doing a patch kit thing for 2.2-stable? Basically, this is a no-brainer. It costs companies money to maintain FreeBSD. Basically this is "make buildworld" and/or "make release" on some type of development machine, then then "make installworld" on every server (once it is tested). How many organizations are doing this now? Imagine the duplication of effort. These same companies could give FreeBSD Inc $200/yr (or more) and save a LOT of money. > Jordan Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:04:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23337 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:04:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23268; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA06934; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA03710; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:43 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Just to recap our discussion so far and then we can (hopefully) get > back to the business of discussing -current: > > 1. I can accept the following credit cards: ... > 3. I will be looking into the possibility of a "super subscription" > which includes a donation. My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the understanding that it's only a hint. The PBS station does this, and the way it works is that if you're happy with how your money is spent, you may donate again in the future. The money could be spent as seen fit by the administrator to attempt to support projects that are desired by the users. If it doesn't work, no-one has lost money and/or face, but the 'success' of the project is seen by the follow-ons and the software generated. No one loses, and everyone gains. There are no expectations that had to be met by the developers, and the developers feel no undue pressure to do something they don't want to. Whaddya think? Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:05:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23632 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:05:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mn26hp6.honeywell.com (mn26hp6.honeywell.com [129.30.4.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23418 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com) Received: from localhost by mn26hp6.honeywell.com with SMTP (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA218599795; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:03:15 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:03:15 -0600 (CST) From: Shawn Leas To: Andreas Braukmann Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <19980304001431.28327@paert.tse-online.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Andreas Braukmann wrote: > > > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different* > > > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was > > > already factored in? > > Yea, I'd do this. > me too. (no, ... I'm not posting from aol ;-)) > > It's definitly the easiest way to pay for free software. (for me) > We're a quite young business and can't spend really much money on > FreeBSD. Everybody - including some of our shareholders - knows that > FreeBSD (our strategic server-platform) is a free piece of software. > If I would donate a significant amount of money to the FreeBSD-project > for appearantly no reason, they would ask me about that (for sure :() > > I would have no problems with the following solutions: > - some kind of 'high-end' / 'premier-support' subscription > for the release-CDs > - printed documentation > - membership in some kind of 'user group' Anyone have any input on the 'user group' angle? As Andreas pointed out, a business will like to be able to justify its' donations in some quantifiable fashion. I do, however, warn against being percieved as being obligated contractually to fix or do anything in a legal sense. Some of us have seen corporate finger pointing before. The user group approach is a nice way to go. Shawn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:09:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24657 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:09:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mn26hp6.honeywell.com (mn26hp6.honeywell.com [129.30.4.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24464; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com) Received: from localhost by mn26hp6.honeywell.com with SMTP (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA221230115; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:08:35 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:08:35 -0600 (CST) From: Shawn Leas To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I'm not sure if this made it out and I don't see it in the archive, > so... [gotta check my mailer - this has been happening a lot lately] > > Just to recap our discussion so far and then we can (hopefully) get > back to the business of discussing -current: > I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost > increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed > daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments. > > Anything else while we're on the topic? :) I've seen two ideas that catch my fancy. 1) The members only user group 2) The ftp/www login for access when ftp.freebsd.org is full Both very attractive ideas. Shawn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:11:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25211 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:11:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from piglet.dstc.edu.au (piglet.dstc.edu.au [130.102.176.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25051; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:10:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggm@dstc.edu.au) Received: from dstc.edu.au (sleet.dstc.edu.au [130.102.176.45]) by piglet.dstc.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13391; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:10:40 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Tom , Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:48:10 PST." <12923.888968890@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:10:39 +1000 Message-ID: <12876.888970239@dstc.edu.au> From: George Michaelson Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This 'how to spend the money' thing is getting into twisty paths. I suggest: #1 lets not figure out how to spend what we don't have #2 tied money is ALWAYS less useful than 'spend as you wish' #3 is not called PAYbsd. Please don't lets make second-class netizens. So I suggest that current not-for-profit trustees be just that: trusted. -to spend with discretion on relevant activity. If it benefits people who pay, it should benefit everybody else as well or it doesn't meet tax-free requirements. Spending $$$ to pay people to finish off significant work, or to buy h/w to make it possible, thats cool. The wider benefit is plain. I'll shell my spare $$$ for some SMP work, and I don't even have an SMP box right now. But I'll be mightily pissed off if this winds up being another commercial venture. Making a priviledged access FTP area, or 'I saw it first' subscription bugfixes is really not it. Don't print buttons and badges unless the printing and distribution costs are covered by some other money, or are massively outweighed by the donation coming in. Its increadibly easy to eat up 30% or more of donated money in 'overheads' which we don't need. It really pisses me off when I give to charity and find that somebody makes 10% and on even a mil thats a damn big 'thankyou'.. Badges? we don't NEED no steenking BODGES! So can we stop this thread, and leave somebody Like Jordan to hassle a web engine with SSL and pgp online, and then just give the money, and go back to sleep? -George PS those dudes running a massively loosely coupled image distribution thingy should be given a big rouse. That is the kind of kick-ass promo FreeBSD is about. -- George Michaelson | DSTC Pty Ltd Email: ggm@dstc.edu.au | University of Qld 4072 Phone: +61 7 3365 4310 | Australia Fax: +61 7 3365 4311 | http://www.dstc.edu.au To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:13:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25512 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from homer.supersex.com (homer.supersex.com [209.5.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25426 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:12:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leo@homer.supersex.com) Received: (from leo@localhost) by homer.supersex.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id SAA11748; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:29:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19980303182941.57473@homer.supersex.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:29:41 -0500 From: Leo Papandreou To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund References: <19980303140740.47554@urh.uiuc.edu> <6307.888955995@verdi.nethelp.no> <19980303141924.07830@urh.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e In-Reply-To: <19980303141924.07830@urh.uiuc.edu>; from dannyman on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:19:24PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:19:24PM -0600, dannyman wrote: > On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 09:13:15PM +0100, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > > I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier > > for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention > > the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller > > than the value of the check itself...) > > That's right .. International users ... > > Over break, if nobody's beat me to it, late in March, I'll talk to my former > employer about how one goes about getting a credit card thingus. > You mean merchant numbers? WC surely has them. It would be rather simple to handle credit card donations considering there is no imperative to process transactions in real time. If a transaction turns out to be bogus, who cares? Nothing was shipped, nothing gets charged back. > I could envision a private company doing its part by acting as a > fund-collecting proxy for FreeBSD ... CC registration can go to say, a loyal > ISP who cuts a check every month to FreeBSD. Ah. Well, if people take exception to giving the money directly to WC then, yeah, things arent quite so simple. FBSD will need its own merchant numbers and banks are likely to ask for a sizeable deposit if your transactions dont involve inked signatures. There's also the possibility that merchant numbers cant be "loaned." If that's the case, then FBSD will definitely need their own merchant numbers. Either that or one of several net "financing" companies like ibill.com. I think credit card donations are an excellent idea. There's probably a few politcal gotcha's since WC already donates time, money and connectivity to FBSD. A separate source of income for FBSD is probably not in their best interests under the current setup. > > And yes, it's a lot easier even for me in America to do credit card. Impulse > purchase where i write a few numbers down, as opposed to going to an ATM to > see if I have any money, digging up a security envelope and finding the > stamp/address, etc ... I'd even be willing to "subscribe" $50/year or > something. :) > > -- > //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- > \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- > aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:16:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26220 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:16:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26124 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:15:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA06902; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:59:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA03675; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:59:35 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:59:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199803032359.QAA03675@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: dg@root.com Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com> References: <199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' > > That'll be sure to kill it. :-) But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:18:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27011 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:18:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26871 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:18:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA02893; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:12:48 +0100 (CET) To: dg@root.com cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:38:10 PST." <199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 01:12:48 +0100 Message-ID: <2891.888970368@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com>, David Greenman writes: >>$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' > > That'll be sure to kill it. :-) > >-DG ... or if the become too popular: kill you after making you the number one entry in the Guiness World Records book.. :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:22:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27849 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:22:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27770 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24345; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd024343; Tue Mar 3 16:13:45 1998 Message-ID: <34FC9BBE.6201DD56@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:09:34 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: barry@lustig.com CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 References: <34FC7EFC.237C228A@whistle.com> <19980303222750.1133.qmail@devious.lustig.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG NO (though you could try... you could make it a completely removable option with appropriate ifdefs.) but the VM interactions would be different and the vfs interface has changed a bit. but it might hurt 2.2's stability. Barry Lustig wrote: > > Is anyone planning on back-porting soft-updates to 2.5.X? > barry > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe > freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:25:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29050 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:25:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28834; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:24:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA02955; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:17:34 +0100 (CET) To: George Michaelson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Tom , Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:10:39 +1000." <12876.888970239@dstc.edu.au> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 01:17:33 +0100 Message-ID: <2953.888970653@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <12876.888970239@dstc.edu.au>, George Michaelson writes: > >This 'how to spend the money' thing is getting into twisty paths. > >I suggest: > >#1 lets not figure out how to spend what we don't have > >#2 tied money is ALWAYS less useful than 'spend as you wish' This is a very important point in my eyes, if there are too many strings attached, it will not make things any better. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:28:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00331 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00164 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18908; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:25:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040025.QAA18908@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Leo Papandreou cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 18:29:41 EST." <19980303182941.57473@homer.supersex.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:25:34 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I think credit card donations are an excellent idea. There's probably > a few politcal gotcha's since WC already donates time, money and > connectivity to FBSD. A separate source of income for FBSD is probably > not in their best interests under the current setup. I would advise against putting words in WC's mouth. Jordan is probably the only person that you should listen to for comment here, as he can speak for both Walnut Creek CDROM and for FreeBSD Inc., both of whom can play a useful part in making donations both easy and accountable. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:35:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02301 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:35:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02256 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21319; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:31:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040031.QAA21319@implode.root.com> To: Nate Williams cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:59:35 MST." <199803032359.QAA03675@mt.sri.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:31:57 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' >> >> That'll be sure to kill it. :-) > >But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :) Yeah, I mean...I'm not usually even *awake* yet at lunch time. :-) -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:36:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02509 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:36:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02457; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:36:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA26215; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:33:18 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:33:17 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy Reply-To: Brian Handy To: Nate Williams Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the >ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the >understanding that it's only a hint. [...] >Whaddya think? I sort of agree with this. My interests are actually with things *other* than SMP (I subscribe to the "MIPS are cheaper than whitebread" theory), but hey, if suddenly we came up with a zillion bucks to hook our SMP guy back up to the life support, that'd be great. But in the background, I'll *still* be grousing about how I want SparQ drives supported. :-) As for the "membership only" mailing lists, I think that's a going nowhere idea. Who's going to provide the answers for this list? There's a spread of talent on this list that you will *not* replicate on a closed list, so it seems that while corporate folks could sure pay for it, they wouldn't in fact get anything useful for it. I can imagine the scenario where something from the -corporate list gets copied to -current, since nobody who paid to be on the -corporate list can figure out how to deal with the problem. \ Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:36:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02652 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:36:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02507 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:36:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20520 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 00:42:56 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303171106.18217@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:42:56 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: dannyman Subject: RE: FreeBSD Fund Cc: "Jordan K.Hubbard" , Poul-Henning Kamp , "John S.Dyson" , Mikael Karpberg , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund , Shawn Leas Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 dannyman wrote: ... > given that Windows95 costs like $80 or something at the store, i would > expect > better educated people who are more heavily in to computers would think > FreeBSD is worth a little more than $10. If this argument had any validity, DOS would have disapeared in 1985 and Bill Gates would have either been selling used cars, running for Congress, or both. > I'm thinking $50, but that's because I'm a poor college student. Too much money. My military monthly salary was $27.50. I would like the ``donate as much as you like'' approach, but that will not be too effective. Esablish a scale: 10-20-30-50-corporate-contributor-lifetime or some such list. Another idea: ``Round-Up'' In addition, and in parallel with any other program: Any one who sellls FreeBSD stuff (WC?) estabishes a round-up program. When you buy a CD for 29.95 (is this the price? I have no clue), you can tell the order taker (or enter into the web form, whatever) to round up your order to cost+N. N goes directly to FreeBSD. A bit more of book-keeping but the vendor gets to display a special logo, the user is caught with his/her hand literally in their pocket (cannot say ``I do not have it'' :-), and FreeBSD gets more money. > Reluctant, lazy and indifferent is not yet our userbase. While an option > in > sysinstall that promises tote bags and plush demons would be ideal, I > think > a lot of us would at least for the time being be content with an SSL web > form > where we plug in our credit card number. I beg to differ. In any social group, there is a small active minority, a large passive majority, and (in most cultures) a minor disruptive fringe group. I bet you not all half million FreeBSD users contribute code, purchase CDs, report bugs, or do anything except take what is offered for free and use it. > Let's get the walking down before we start running flat out on this eh? >:) Of course. We need: a. Ownership/Board-of-Directors decision that this is what they want to do. b. Control structure; Who collects the money, who supervises the money, who disburses the money. c. Guidelines; What we will not do, what we will not accept, what we will. d. Collection Plan: This is what we are going to do to get the money e. Disbursement Plan: Here is how we will spend the money f. Imlepemntation g. Activation and feedback analysis h. Enahancements Since this is getting serious: a. Is this list the best forum for this discussion? b. I have a list of reservations about the whole thing. Not to say I oppose it, but there are issues that should be surfaced. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:38:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03383 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:38:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03337 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:38:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20586 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 00:45:32 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803032338.PAA20763@implode.root.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:45:32 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: David Greenman Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 David Greenman wrote: >>$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' > > That'll be sure to kill it. :-) > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project ^ ^ ^ | | | +------+----------+------> You are too modest. BTW, Until I posted this one, you did not pipe up on this silly/serious issue :-) Now I know how to get both you and Jordan to respond :-)) ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:40:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03950 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:40:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03843 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:40:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20625 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 00:47:02 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803032359.QAA03675@mt.sri.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:47:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Nate Williams Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Nate Williams wrote: >> >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' >> >> That'll be sure to kill it. :-) > > But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :) Yeah! Nate gets the first Dinner with DG button, as soon as his donation check cashes. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:40:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03953 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:40:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03871; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01683; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:39:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803040039.QAA01683@rah.star-gate.com> To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: George Michaelson , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Tom , Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 01:17:33 +0100." <2953.888970653@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1680.888971993.1@rah> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:39:53 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Depends on the understanding. Let re-phrase my donation: I am willing to donate $25 and would love to see cool SMP support. So vote with your wallet! Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:45:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05238 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alushta.NL.net (alushta.NL.net [193.78.240.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05220 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:44:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benst@terminus.stuyts.nl) Received: from stuyts by alushta.NL.net with UUCP id <14343-5918>; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:24:05 +0100 Received: from daneel.stuyts.nl (daneel.stuyts.nl [193.78.231.7]) by terminus.stuyts.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21913 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:22:20 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from benst) Received: (from benst@localhost) by daneel.stuyts.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA16793 for current@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:21:21 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199803032021.VAA16793@daneel.stuyts.nl> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: <199803031903.LAA03101@ix.netcom.com> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Ben Stuyts Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 21:21:19 +0100 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund Reply-To: ben@stuyts.nl References: <199803031903.LAA03101@ix.netcom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Thomas Dean wrote: > > Dear Santa , > > > > Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can > > have fine SMP granularity by Christmas? > > > > Thank You, > > Amancio > > Me too. Me too. (In cash though, overseas bank transfers cost more than $25 extra...) Ben To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:47:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05815 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05801; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18984; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:44:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040044.QAA18984@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Brian Handy cc: Nate Williams , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SparQ drives (was Re: Donations. ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:33:17 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:44:34 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I sort of agree with this. My interests are actually with things *other* > than SMP (I subscribe to the "MIPS are cheaper than whitebread" theory), > but hey, if suddenly we came up with a zillion bucks to hook our SMP guy > back up to the life support, that'd be great. But in the background, I'll > *still* be grousing about how I want SparQ drives supported. :-) Er, they are. In fact, they probably work with 2.0; the SparQ just looks like an IDE disk. (Yes, FTL has one.) I'm not sure I can recommend them, as we've had one of two arrive DOA, and they're about as cheap a POS as you ever saw, but when they work they seem to be OK. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 16:49:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06732 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:49:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06674 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:49:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07380; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:49:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA04614; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:49:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:49:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199803040049.RAA04614@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Nate Williams , current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: References: <199803032359.QAA03675@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' > >> > >> That'll be sure to kill it. :-) > > > > But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :) > > Yeah! Nate gets the first Dinner with DG button, as soon as his donation > check cashes. I'm not going to donate cash to the project. I've donated thousands of hours and $$ of my own already, and plan to continue donating my time. But, I have been to dinner with a number of core members. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:08:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10336 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:08:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA10315 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:08:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20964 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 01:14:50 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803040049.RAA04614@mt.sri.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:14:50 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Nate Williams Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Nate Williams wrote: >> >> >$5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' >> >> >> >> That'll be sure to kill it. :-) >> > >> > But dinner at the German place was quite enjoyable. :) >> >> Yeah! Nate gets the first Dinner with DG button, as soon as his >> donation >> check cashes. > > I'm not going to donate cash to the project. I've donated thousands of > hours and $$ of my own already, and plan to continue donating my time. > But, I have been to dinner with a number of core members. :) This is why a Contributor class is needed. If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-) ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:22:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11957 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:22:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11933; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA13640; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:21:12 -0800 (PST) To: Tom cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:00:30 PST." Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:21:11 -0800 Message-ID: <13636.888974471@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Basically, this is a no-brainer. It costs companies money to maintain > FreeBSD. Basically this is "make buildworld" and/or "make release" on > some type of development machine, then then "make installworld" on every > server (once it is tested). How many organizations are doing this now? > Imagine the duplication of effort. These same companies could give > FreeBSD Inc $200/yr (or more) and save a LOT of money. It sounds a lot like the bindist from a SNAP CD to me. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:24:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12502 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:24:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12492 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:24:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au) Received: from exchvic1.dsto.defence.gov.au (exchvic1.dsto.defence.gov.au [146.221.39.76]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26601 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:53:43 +1030 (CST) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au ([131.185.2.5]) by exchvic1.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id FTQ6KVGY; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:24:24 +1100 Received: from eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au (eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.111]) by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27486 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:54:28 +1030 (CST) Received: from dsto.defence.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08072 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:54:28 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <34FCAD4B.176C1C6B@dsto.defence.gov.au> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:54:27 +1030 From: Matthew Thyer Organization: Defence Science Technology Organisation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Please avoid lifetime entitlements to things that cost the project to produce. i.e. Snapshot CD's, network bandwidth etc. Unfunded liabilities can really kill a nice idea. Maybe two years should be the maximum time for any entitlement. (Then they will have to pay again to renew their entitlement - At least the project will then have regular income to fund these things). Of course the entitlement subscriptions should all be a reasonable price with the ability to pay more on the understanding that the extra money is purely a donation only. I like the idea of being able to suggest what development you're interested in. The donation web page should have pick lists and check boxes for people to indicate what they are most interested in for near future development. Then we can automatically generate stats on what people want to see. Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm not sure if this made it out and I don't see it in the archive, > so... [gotta check my mailer - this has been happening a lot lately] > > Just to recap our discussion so far and then we can (hopefully) get > back to the business of discussing -current: > > 1. I can accept the following credit cards: > American Express > Carte Blanche > Diners Club > Discover > Euro Card > JCB > Master Card > Visa > > I just need to get the appropriate details ironed out as to what > the customer will put on the debit so that Walnut Creek CDROM knows > that it's going to us. > > 2. We will be setting things up so that donations may be given over > the phone, in PGP encrypted email or via a secure web server. The > infrastructure for doing all of this already exists, we just need to > enter a new order code type so that WC can keep the transactions > straight. > > 3. I will be looking into the possibility of a "super subscription" > which includes a donation. I will also look into putting some sort > of checkbox item next to the appropriate FreeBSD CD order forms which > say something like "Would you like to include a donation to the FreeBSD > Project?" and gives you a place to fill in the amount. > > I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost > increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed > daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments. > > Anything else while we're on the topic? :) > > Thanks. > > Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message -- Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249 Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537 Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Salisbury PO Box 1500 Salisbury South Australia 5108 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:25:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12592 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:25:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12543; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:25:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA13668; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:24:09 -0800 (PST) To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:03:43 MST." <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:24:09 -0800 Message-ID: <13664.888974649@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the > ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the How is this any different than people being able to give us hints (via the mailing lists) now? Or are you asking for a comment field specifically on the donation card, or something? I probably won't actually be *doing* donation cards as such in any case since they're something of a pain and don't really return much (Rich Morin of Prime Time Freeware did this on behalf of the FSF and got something like 2 donations for every 1000 cards sent out). > understanding that it's only a hint. The PBS station does this, and the > way it works is that if you're happy with how your money is spent, you Sort of - the PBS stations around here just hold telethons and take your money, then you find out whether you liked what they did with it when you watch the station for the next year; I've never been able to influence their programming schedule in any way that I can see, despite being a frequent donor to KQED. :) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:26:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12868 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:26:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from homer.supersex.com (homer.supersex.com [209.5.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12791 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:25:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leo@homer.supersex.com) Received: (from leo@localhost) by homer.supersex.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id UAA04755; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:26:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19980303202608.04873@homer.supersex.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:26:08 -0500 From: Leo Papandreou To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund References: <19980303182941.57473@homer.supersex.com> <199803040025.QAA18908@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e In-Reply-To: <199803040025.QAA18908@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:25:34PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:25:34PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > I think credit card donations are an excellent idea. There's probably > > a few politcal gotcha's since WC already donates time, money and > > connectivity to FBSD. A separate source of income for FBSD is probably > > not in their best interests under the current setup. > > I would advise against putting words in WC's mouth. Jordan is probably > the only person that you should listen to for comment here, as he can > speak for both Walnut Creek CDROM and for FreeBSD Inc., both of whom > can play a useful part in making donations both easy and accountable. > Well, sure; I was just speculating idly. Personally I see nothing wrong with WC handling the transactions. > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:29:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13545 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:29:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13537 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:29:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA13719; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:28:29 -0800 (PST) To: Leo Papandreou cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 18:29:41 EST." <19980303182941.57473@homer.supersex.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:28:29 -0800 Message-ID: <13715.888974909@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think credit card donations are an excellent idea. There's probably > a few politcal gotcha's since WC already donates time, money and > connectivity to FBSD. A separate source of income for FBSD is probably > not in their best interests under the current setup. Are you talking about WC here? Actually, they're more than in favor of the idea and are now also talking about setting up a tech support organization for FreeBSD where some percentage of all fees collected would go to the project. We're currently researching the feasability of setting up another phone line and creating a web-based tech support queue. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:29:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13610 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:29:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13565 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:29:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id UAA04744; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:25:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:28:09 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: dg@root.com, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <2891.888970368@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > ... or if the become too popular: kill you after making you the number > one entry in the Guiness World Records book.. :-) Actually that isn't a bad idea seriously. Someone should call guiness and see if there is a world record for the ammount of simultaneous users on a PC. I mean of all the stupid categories and things in guiness, that would be KILLER bragging rights for FreeBSD :) To be listed in guiness as the worlds most heavily used FTP machine. Most of us already know this, but to be able to point to the guiness book of world records when talking to clients or whatnot would be pretty cool! :) Jordan, or david should call guiness :) Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:30:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13961 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13888 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:30:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA29577; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:28:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:28:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040128.RAA29577@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org CC: nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com In-reply-to: (message from Simon Shapiro on Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:14:50 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * This is why a Contributor class is needed. * * If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-) Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member. Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or dinner with any of you guys. :) (My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something? ;) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:42:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16457 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:42:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16442; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:42:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA07734; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:39:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA05086; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:39:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:39:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199803040139.SAA05086@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <13664.888974649@time.cdrom.com> References: <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com> <13664.888974649@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the > > ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the > > How is this any different than people being able to give us hints > (via the mailing lists) now? Or are you asking for a comment field > specifically on the donation card, or something? Sort of. If people feel like they have at least a 'say' in how they're money is spent (w/out the obligation), we may get more 'return on investment' if we use that money for those tasks (however thankless they are) the 'masses' have asked for. It more formalized than asking for hints on mailing lists, and has a bit more weight in that the user requesting something has shown greater than normal interest in FreeBSD, therefore it is more likely that a developer would end up with more kudos/hardware/$$/whatever by respecting his wishes. However, the developers are not required to follow the wishes of the users. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:42:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16598 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:42:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16462; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:42:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA07761; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:42:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA05114; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:40:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:40:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199803040140.SAA05114@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803040128.RAA29577@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> References: <199803040128.RAA29577@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > * This is why a Contributor class is needed. > * > * If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-) > > Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member. Yes I do. It's the only way I can get Jordan to do dinner with me. :) :) > (My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something? ;) Of course. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:43:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17028 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:43:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16974; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:43:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA19181; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:41:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040141.RAA19181@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:28:54 PST." <199803040128.RAA29577@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:41:46 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > * This is why a Contributor class is needed. > * > * If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-) > > Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member. > Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or > dinner with any of you guys. :) > > (My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something? ;) If a tree falls on a core member, does anybody notice? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:46:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17830 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:46:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17778 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:46:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10297; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:15:44 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA20587; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:15:43 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304121543.31045@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:15:43 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Lyndon Nerenberg , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: troff papers missing References: <199803031854.LAA02533@ve7tcp.ampr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803031854.LAA02533@ve7tcp.ampr.org>; from Lyndon Nerenberg on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 11:54:17AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 11:54:17 -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Once upon a time (4.4Lite) the doc distribution contained a > troff reference paper in the doc tree. This seems to be missing > from 3.0. Am I blind, or was it removed? If it was nuked, why? It was AT&T copyright. > (Troff reference manuals are getting as rare as original copies > of the annotated 6th edition source ...) That, too, may change soon. SCO is planning to license 16-bit UNIX in source form for private use. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:46:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17834 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:46:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA17774 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:46:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 21515 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 01:53:05 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:53:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Open Systems Networking Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: dg@root.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Open Systems Networking wrote: > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> ... or if the become too popular: kill you after making you the number >> one entry in the Guiness World Records book.. :-) > > Actually that isn't a bad idea seriously. Someone should call guiness and > see if there is a world record for the ammount of simultaneous users on a > PC. I mean of all the stupid categories and things in guiness, that would > be KILLER bragging rights for FreeBSD :) To be listed in guiness as the > worlds most heavily used FTP machine. Most of us already know this, but > to > be able to point to the guiness book of world records when talking to > clients or whatnot would be pretty cool! :) > Jordan, or david should call guiness :) If you call first, your system will be it :-) I thought they are talking about dark beer all this time. Shows you how much I knwo. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:49:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18683 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:49:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA18558 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:49:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 21607 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 01:55:55 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803040128.RAA29577@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:55:55 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: (Satoshi Asami) Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Satoshi Asami wrote: > * This is why a Contributor class is needed. > * > * If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? :-) > > Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member. > Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or > dinner with any of you guys. :) Your address (So I can drop by)? > (My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something? ;) a. I am not making you. You are. b. In the name of fund raising, you glitter the shiny and hide the drab. People raise money for much lesser causes. I can direct you to some computer related mailing lists where certain individuals (who had lunch with DG!) have raised this to an art form. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:50:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19003 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:50:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18887; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA13913; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:49:11 -0800 (PST) To: Mike Smith cc: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami), shimon@simon-shapiro.org, nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:41:46 PST." <199803040141.RAA19181@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:49:11 -0800 Message-ID: <13910.888976151@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If a tree falls on a core member, does anybody notice? No, but it might explain the continuing silence on -core from some of them. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:52:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19615 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:52:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gjp.erols.com (alex-va-n008c243.moon.jic.com [206.156.18.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19574 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:52:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) Received: from gjp.erols.com (localhost.erols.com [127.0.0.1]) by gjp.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14603; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:51:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) To: Eivind Eklund cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:27:19 +0100." <19980303092719.58779@follo.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:51:55 -0500 Message-ID: <14599.888976315@gjp.erols.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Eivind Eklund wrote in message ID <19980303092719.58779@follo.net>: > Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field > in the registration, where people could key in their credit card > number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further > FreeBSD development? A lot of ppl won't because its not a secure delivery. > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10, > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD. One way right now is to bu the CDROM ... its more than $10 I know, but the proceeds are used to better the project. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 17:53:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19885 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:53:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA19818 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:53:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 21666 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 01:59:39 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803040141.RAA19181@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:59:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com, (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: >> * This is why a Contributor class is needed. >> * >> * If a core member has lunch with a core member. What's the reward? >> :-) >> >> Besides, you don't need to donate money to chat with a core member. >> Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or >> dinner with any of you guys. :) >> >> (My goodness, what are you making us to be? Celebrities or something? >> ;) > > If a tree falls on a core member, does anybody notice? Core member in question for one. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 18:04:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22636 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22478; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA29686; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:03:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:03:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040203.SAA29686@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG CC: sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <12360.888965506@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" * up. I've already ordered Satoshi & crew a really nice package * building machine which should be here Friday and I guess I'll spend Thank you very much. That would certainly help a lot. :) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 18:18:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25840 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:18:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from piglet.dstc.edu.au (piglet.dstc.edu.au [130.102.176.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25782 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:17:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggm@dstc.edu.au) Received: from dstc.edu.au (sleet.dstc.edu.au [130.102.176.45]) by piglet.dstc.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18219; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:17:36 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: Lyndon Nerenberg , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: troff papers missing In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:15:43 +1030." <19980304121543.31045@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:17:35 +1000 Message-ID: <13275.888977855@dstc.edu.au> From: George Michaelson Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dennis Ritchie has V7 spec troff papers for almost everything which was removed available for anon FTP under a 'its so old, nobody cares' clause. I pulled them but GNU t/roff can't grok the pre-BSD markup and I ran out of time to fudge. If you really want this stuff, with some pain, its doable. What *I* miss is the learn package. It was bitchin' for passing off how to do basic shell/ed/vi to a robot. -George -- George Michaelson | DSTC Pty Ltd Email: ggm@dstc.edu.au | University of Qld 4072 Phone: +61 7 3365 4310 | Australia Fax: +61 7 3365 4311 | http://www.dstc.edu.au To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 18:32:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28292 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28275; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:32:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA05543; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:31:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:31:37 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Brian Handy , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <11806.888962618@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I think it depends. Do you want to get money into the hands of FreeBSD > > people or into the hands of Walnut Creek? (Not to knock Walnut Creek.) > > I'm wondering if my $40 subscription would be better spent mailed in as a > > donation. If they buy $1500 in CD's, the FreeBSD project will get some > > small fraction of that compared to buying *one* CD subscription and paying > > the big bucks for it. > > I think the real question we need to answer here is: > > Would people be willing to subscribe to a *different* > subscription plan where a donation to FreeBSD, Inc was > already factored in? In a second. Sign me up. > > If the answer to this question is a significant yes, I'll push with > Walnut Creek CDROM to set something up. > > We are starting to get significant donations now and while we're still > nowhere near the point where we could actually hire people with the > funds available, that's definitely a goal of mine. > > Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 18:47:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29952 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:47:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29947 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:47:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA08955; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:47:10 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:49:08 GMT Message-ID: <34fdbe96.97413991@mail.cetlink.net> References: <13993.888908908@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <13993.888908908@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA29948 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:08:28 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >The fact that there has been none comment on Terrys suggestion usually >means that people didn't even spend so much time to consider it that >they could prevent their Pavlovian reflex from pressing D at the sight >of Terrys name. I did not comment on it, yet I do not have a Pavlovian reflex to Terry's name. How will FreeBSD thrive while core team members publicly display such a mean-spirited, bad attitude as the above? When enough people get fed up with it, they will split and develop their own version of BSD, leaving the others behind. >-- >Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 18:55:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01026 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:55:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01000; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:54:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09676; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:54:54 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:56:53 GMT Message-ID: <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA01020 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:26:41 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost >increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed >daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments. > >Anything else while we're on the topic? :) Yep. I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets funded. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 19:03:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02687 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:03:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02679; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:03:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA10571; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:03:04 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Nate Williams Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 03:05:02 GMT Message-ID: <3500c33c.98603282@mail.cetlink.net> References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com> In-Reply-To: <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA02680 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:43 -0700, Nate Williams wrote: >My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the >ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the >understanding that it's only a hint. >Whaddya think? For small contributions it might be a workable model, but you'll never attract serious money if you're not willing to do the donors' bidding. Who was it that said to ban corporate contributions, Jordan? That's silly. As long as the source code remains free, everyone gets the benefit, no matter how narrow the donor's request might seem. After all, it's THEIR MONEY and they don't have to part with it if they don't want to. All of you are thinking too small. THINK BIG! -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 19:08:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03405 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:08:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03399; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA05603; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:07:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:07:22 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: John Kelly cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > >I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost > >increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed > >daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments. > > > >Anything else while we're on the topic? :) > > Yep. > > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets > funded. I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not buying! It'd be a great mistake to forget that. Please don't lose sight of that, because it'd turn a great hobby into someone's business. I'll be in line to donate, but let's keep in mind we're doing this as enthusiasts, not corporate-magnates. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 19:10:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03832 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:10:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03682; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:09:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08392; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:09:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA05875; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:09:38 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:09:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199803040309.UAA05875@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Cc: Nate Williams , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3500c33c.98603282@mail.cetlink.net> References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com> <3500c33c.98603282@mail.cetlink.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >My gut-level reaction to the donation is that you give the donater the > >ability to give the developers a 'hint' at what they'd like, with the > >understanding that it's only a hint. > > >Whaddya think? > > For small contributions it might be a workable model, but you'll never > attract serious money if you're not willing to do the donors' bidding. I don't think FreeBSD has the resources do deal with 'serious donors', any more so than they're doing now. (People with serious money are willing to hire FreeBSD folks to do 'serious work' on their dime. A number of companies have done this already, and I don't see that changing. John Dyson, Julian, Poul-Henning, Jordan, David, and many others are working full-time on FreeBSD and/or FreeBSD related projects *right now* (apologies to those who I might have missed). Basically, if you've got big $$ to spend, I think it's been shown that many FreeBSD developers are willing to be long-term/short-term employees and/or contract workers. > All of you are thinking too small. THINK BIG! Big is already working, we need medium. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 19:36:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08881 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:36:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08869 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:36:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id VAA08202; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:36:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303213624.32056@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:36:24 -0600 From: dannyman To: George Michaelson , Greg Lehey Cc: Lyndon Nerenberg , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: troff papers missing References: <19980304121543.31045@freebie.lemis.com> <13275.888977855@dstc.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <13275.888977855@dstc.edu.au>; from George Michaelson on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:17:35PM +1000 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:17:35PM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: > What *I* miss is the learn package. It was bitchin' for passing off how to > do basic shell/ed/vi to a robot. Perhaps we could get together and build a new one. :) -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:02:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12081 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:02:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12044; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:02:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02571; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:01:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803040401.UAA02571@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Chuck Robey cc: John Kelly , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:07:22 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:01:43 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > > > >I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost > > >increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed > > >daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments. > > > > > >Anything else while we're on the topic? :) > > > > Yep. > > > > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets > > funded. > > I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a > volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not So let me understand this . FreeBSD is Free minus the Pay 8) ? Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:11:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14519 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14465; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:11:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18137; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:10:54 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Chuck Robey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:12:53 GMT Message-ID: <3501d407.102898087@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803040401.UAA02571@rah.star-gate.com> In-Reply-To: <199803040401.UAA02571@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA14486 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:01:43 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: >> >> > >I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost >> > >increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed >> > >daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments. >> > > >> > >Anything else while we're on the topic? :) >> > >> > Yep. >> > >> > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets >> > funded. >> >> I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a >> volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not > >So let me understand this . FreeBSD is Free minus the Pay 8) ? As Nate said, it's already been accepted. But the developers getting paid are fragmented, not organized. That's the wrong way to do it. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:17:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15555 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:17:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15547; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:17:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02664; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:17:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803040417.UAA02664@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Chuck Robey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:12:53 GMT." <3501d407.102898087@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:17:16 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As Nate said, it's already been accepted. But the developers getting > paid are fragmented, not organized. That's the wrong way to do it. Thats fine . It is not too hard to recognize that certain areas have corporate appeal. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:24:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17549 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:24:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17510; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05748; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:23:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:23:35 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: Amancio Hasty cc: John Kelly , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <199803040401.UAA02571@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > > > > > >I'll also look into the idea of memberships at various cost > > > >increments, perhaps with gifts ranging from CDs and books to stuffed > > > >daemon plushies being awarded at the various increments. > > > > > > > >Anything else while we're on the topic? :) > > > > > > Yep. > > > > > > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets > > > funded. > > > > I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a > > volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not > > So let me understand this . FreeBSD is Free minus the Pay 8) ? Kind of a fine line here. I want FreeBSD to move forward, and I've been (and will continue to be) willing to contribute, but I also want FreeBSD to keep the enthusiast quality feeling. I don't want to see unbridled commercialism creep in. I don't see what WC is doing as getting anywhere near close to that, but *some* of the suggestions made me feel that things might be getting out of hand. The thought of FreeBSD somehow engendering the growth of a future Bill Gates is repulsive. I just wanted to add a note of caution to some of the more extreme funding suggestions. When I saw "THINK BIG", well, that triggered me off (yes, I then went back and made a reply to his previous message). > > Cheers, > Amancio > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 20:55:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21601 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:55:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21587; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:54:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22126; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:54:19 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Chuck Robey Cc: Amancio Hasty , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:56:17 GMT Message-ID: <3502ddd7.105407501@mail.cetlink.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA21589 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:23:35 -0500 (EST), Chuck Robey wrote: >The thought of FreeBSD somehow engendering the growth of a future Bill >Gates is repulsive. I just wanted to add a note of caution to some of the >more extreme funding suggestions. When I saw "THINK BIG", well, that >triggered me off No matter how big it gets, it's still freed software. No one can "control" it like some evil empire. We have the source, Luke. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 21:20:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25090 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:20:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA25083 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:20:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0yA6bP-0001vr-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:20:23 -0700 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA03794; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:20:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803040520.WAA03794@harmony.village.org> To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 Cc: Julian Elischer , Ollivier Robert , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:41:02 PST." <199803031841.KAA25772@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199803031841.KAA25772@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:20:02 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803031841.KAA25772@rah.star-gate.com> Amancio Hasty writes: : I heard yesterday on a radio commercial : That the Interjet was so good : to install that it was worth installing over and over again . "If it's not painful, it's not gainful" was the motto of the Technomassocists society. I really liked that... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 21:31:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26717 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:31:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26710 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:31:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0yA6km-0001w4-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:30:04 -0700 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA03824; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:29:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803040529.WAA03824@harmony.village.org> To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:59:26 PST." References: Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:29:42 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Simon Shapiro writes: : Here are few more ideas: for $150.00 you get your own JKH 357 magnum with extra loud clicking mechanism. For shooting people that make really ill considered changes to the tree. for $500.00 you can get your own jkh motocycle faring, complete with biking leathers, sport helment (complete with chuckie decal :-) and three gallons of bad attitude. and for $1500.00 you can get your very own Rod Grimes sky surfing/diving rig. Health insurance rider extra. For $5.00 you can get Terry's whiteboard. For another $1995 we'll even explain it to you. Now you too can decode some of terry's more esoretic points and posts and know why they make sense. A deal a twice the price! Act now! Too spendy for you? You can get your very own pointy hat, just like the ones members of -committers wear, monogrammed with a picture of chuckie for only $75.00. Be the envy of all those in your office, or buy several (20 for only $1000) and give them out in your own organization.[*] With appologies to those core members I've lampooned (and those that I didn't but wanted me to). Warner [*] We could raffle off several of these at USENIX next year :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 21:43:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28187 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:43:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA28146; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:42:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0yA6wH-0001wO-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:41:57 -0700 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA03891; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:41:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803040541.WAA03891@harmony.village.org> To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , George Michaelson , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Tom , Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:39:53 PST." <199803040039.QAA01683@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199803040039.QAA01683@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:41:35 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803040039.QAA01683@rah.star-gate.com> Amancio Hasty writes: : Let re-phrase my donation: I am willing to donate $25 and would : love to see cool SMP support. So vote with your wallet! I'd love to see atapi tape drives supported, so I donated one to the cause.... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:15:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02127 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:15:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mantar.slip.netcom.com (mantar.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02108; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@mantar.slip.netcom.com) Received: from mantar.slip.netcom.com (mantar.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.134]) by mantar.slip.netcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA00443; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:15:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@mantar.slip.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:15:20 -0800 (PST) From: Manfred Antar To: current@FreeBSD.ORG cc: smp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Current SMP kernel panics on booting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There were some smp file changes today and i built a new a kernel. It drops into debugger when booting at the place where it used to say CPU1 launched here is what i get: mp_lock=00000002; cpuid=0; lapic.id=00000000 instruction pointer = 0x8 : 0x0f012f89e stack pointer = 0x10 : 0xf02a9f90 frame pointer = 0x10 : 0xf02a9f94 code segment = base 0x0 limit 0fffff, type 0x1b = DPL0, pres 1, def321, gran1 processor flags = interrupt enabled, IOPL = 0 current process = 0 (swapper) interrupt mask = <-- SMP:XXX kernel : type 29 trap, code = 0 stopped at _mbinit + 0xe movl $0,_mclfree For the past couple of days it seems like the system has been unstable frequent lock ups.A kernel from last thursday works fine. Manfred ============================== || mantar@netcom.com || || Ph. (415) 681-6235 || ============================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:18:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03108 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bock.salnet.net (d01a85b2.dip.cdsnet.net [208.26.133.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03084; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:18:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from slogue@acm.org) Received: from acm.org (localhost.salnet.net [127.0.0.1]) by bock.salnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06738; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:17:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 06:17:37 +0000 From: Steve Logue Organization: nettek LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.33 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kelly CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Kelly wrote: > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets > funded. Simple - straight, and perfectly worded. May we now debate the dollar amount? -STEVEl -------------------------------------------- http://www.nettek-LLC.com Southern Oregon's PC network technicians -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:23:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03902 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:23:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA03893 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:23:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 28984 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 06:30:01 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803040529.WAA03824@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:30:01 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Warner Losh Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Warner Losh wrote: > In message Simon Shapiro > writes: >: Here are few more ideas: > > for $150.00 you get your own JKH 357 magnum with extra loud clicking > mechanism. For shooting people that make really ill considered > changes to the tree. This is one firearm brand I do not recognize. Cheap for a 357... > for $500.00 you can get your own jkh motocycle faring, complete with > biking leathers, sport helment (complete with chuckie decal :-) and > three gallons of bad attitude. The last item seems to be free in these circles... > and for $1500.00 you can get your very own Rod Grimes sky > surfing/diving rig. Health insurance rider extra. > > For $5.00 you can get Terry's whiteboard. For another $1995 we'll > even explain it to you. Now you too can decode some of terry's more > esoretic points and posts and know why they make sense. A deal a > twice the price! Act now! > > Too spendy for you? You can get your very own pointy hat, just like > the ones members of -committers wear, monogrammed with a picture of > chuckie for only $75.00. Be the envy of all those in your office, or > buy several (20 for only $1000) and give them out in your own > organization.[*] > > With appologies to those core members I've lampooned (and those that I > didn't but wanted me to). > > Warner > > [*] We could raffle off several of these at USENIX next year :-) I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to good, working pieces of the kernel... Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the system. simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:25:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04274 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:25:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bock.salnet.net (d01a85b2.dip.cdsnet.net [208.26.133.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04264 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:25:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from slogue@acm.org) Received: from acm.org (localhost.salnet.net [127.0.0.1]) by bock.salnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06757; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:24:26 -0800 Message-ID: <34FCF399.2B4B879A@acm.org> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 06:24:25 +0000 From: Steve Logue Organization: nettek LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.33 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro wrote: > If you call first, your system will be it :-) > I thought they are talking about dark beer all this time. Shows you how > much I knwo. Simon - Look at you! You _don't_ know nutton - They were talking about Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. Dark beer: sheesh! :-) -STEVEl -- -------------------------------------------- http://www.nettek-LLC.com Southern Oregon's PC network technicians -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:29:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04935 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:29:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA04929 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:29:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 29091 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 06:36:07 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <34FCF399.2B4B879A@acm.org> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:36:07 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Steve Logue Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Steve Logue wrote: > Simon Shapiro wrote: > >> If you call first, your system will be it :-) >> I thought they are talking about dark beer all this time. Shows you how >> much I knwo. > > > Simon - Look at you! You _don't_ know nutton - They were talking about > Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. > > Dark beer: sheesh! > >:-) -STEVEl Sorry. I do not consume alcoholic beverages, and as a result my knowledge of these matters is very poor. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 22:37:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06069 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:37:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06062; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:37:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05001; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:37:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803040637.WAA05001@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:16:42 PST." <12000.888963402@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:37:20 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dear Santa, Thank you for giving me your address. The check is on the mail. Amancio > > > > Dear Santa , > > > > Do you mind telling me where to I send my small $25 donation so I can > > have fine SMP granularity by Christmas? > > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook254.html#591 > (section 17.2.6.1 of the handbook) > > :-) > > Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:28:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13052 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:28:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13027 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:27:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-11.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.139]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA00113; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id XAA14220; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:27:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:27:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040727.XAA14220@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org CC: imp@village.org, handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net In-reply-to: (message from Simon Shapiro on Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:30:01 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the * system. That would be the lynx-current port. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:29:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13589 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:29:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13554; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:29:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00653; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:29:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803040729.CAA00653@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: from Chuck Robey at "Mar 3, 98 10:07:22 pm" To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:29:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: jak@cetlink.net, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chuck Robey said: > > > > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets > > funded. > > I hope THAT never gets accepted! People have to remember that this is a > volunteer organization. *FreeBSD*, not PayBSD, and you're donating, not > buying! It'd be a great mistake to forget that. > This is my initial take on this opinion: I can sympathize with your position. I would feel guilty if a student user would contribute much more than $25 or so dollars. Likewise, a large institution might reasonably contribute $5000-$10000, or if they want more control, might hire a few people to work on FreeBSD related items. However, I really really don't think that it is a good idea to disappoint people who are counting on us (it is already hard to deal with things the way that they are now.) We need to make sure that people know that the donation is meant to help with future general progress, no-one's pockets are being lined, and the work on the project might not be greatly influenced by the donation (except in a general way that we can fund certain things that simply are not "fun" to do :-)). I would hate to think that someone might believe that they are getting much influence even with $500. If an average FreeBSD kernel developer's billing rate is between $25 and $150, the $500 doesn't fund much time. I think that one could trust that the money would be used for the good of the project, but compared to my habit of spending 2/3 of my work time, and perhaps 2/3 of my play time on FreeBSD, that isn't all that much money by itself. Since I am being paid very fairly for my work at NCI, I am definitely not willing to take payment of any kind for FreeBSD work now. However, if there is some kind of hardware that one might want to work properly on FreeBSD, I would be willing to indefinitely borrow that hardware in order to make a driver for someone, and perhaps maintain the driver as needed. The "indefinite loan" only influences me because I would have hardware to test on. If I am not motivated to work on a project, "giving" me the hardware won't influence work very much. If I want to do the work, and the only thing holding me back is hardware, then a loan of such hardware would be very productive. I suspect that other FreeBSD developers (core/non-core) would feel similarly. If I was not already overcommitted, I think that I wouldn't mind helping with the Alpha, Ultra-Sparc, or "other, non-public" machine port. There is always the possiblity of people who might be less overcommitted, who could effectively help with such a port. The problem is that "donating" a machine to do a port doesn't seem to necessarily be effective in stimulating progress. This rambling response kind-of indicates my concern that we "do this correctly" so that the people who donate are happy, and the project gets the best bang for the buck from the donated resources (i.e. we don't mistakenly squander the resources.) I think that JKH & crew has learned from previous experience, but we need to remember the past so that we minimize mistakes in the future. It is so easy to be optimistic about this, but I would think that allocation of the donated resources would be a significant (almost sacred) responsibility. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:33:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14367 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:33:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14362 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:32:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA15291; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:31:41 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:49:08 GMT." <34fdbe96.97413991@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:31:40 -0800 Message-ID: <15287.888996700@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > How will FreeBSD thrive while core team members publicly display such > a mean-spirited, bad attitude as the above? When enough people get > fed up with it, they will split and develop their own version of BSD, > leaving the others behind. First off, it's very easy (too easy) to comment like this when you don't know the full details. Terry's been getting along with us a lot better lately, but he's certainly been a royal pain in the backside to many of us in the past and there are some utterly baseless accusations he's made at various times which I'm still not all that sure I forgive him for. There are people in this life who revel in bedeviling others for what would often appear to be the sheer joy of it, and they rarely win popularity contests in the process. The members of core are only human and if you jab them enough times with a hat pin, they'll react. Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins, etc etc. That said, we're certainly working every day on patience and other human virtues so that we can rise above the worst that our detractors may do, but you've still got to remember that this is a volunteer outfit and it's already enough to ask of our members that they donate their time and energy without asking for complete personality transplants on top of it. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:41:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15703 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:41:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15696; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:41:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA15382; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:40:54 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:56:53 GMT." <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:40:54 -0800 Message-ID: <15378.888997254@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets > funded. Then save your money. That may sound harsh, but consider the facts: What good is a "vote" going to do you if your vote is for something that can't be purchased for $250? You could say, for example, that you want your $250 to go towards SMP development but, until I have enough pennies saved to buy a block of Steve Passe's consulting hours, such a vote doesn't tell me anything more than I already know and that $250 is going to sit in the bank for a long time (perhaps forever) before I have enough there to seriously approach Steve with an offer. If you're looking to directly influence the usage of the monies donated then that are far more practical ways of going about it, like simply spending $250 on some card or other peripheral you want supported and then sending it to us. It's still no guarantee that we'll find the people to do the work involved, but you've certainly constrained the usage of your $250 significantly by turning it into hardware first and I've no objection at all to people voting thusly with their wallets. If you're also looking to influence my choices of what FreeBSD, Inc. does with its money then I'm also always happy to take suggestions from _anyone_, regardless of whether they've contributed or not, since a good suggestion is a good suggestion regardless of its source. If you're looking to attach strings to the ways in which I can spend fractions of dollars, however, then that's an accounting headache which I simply don't need and I'd rather you used the money to purchase a nice birthday gift for your wife, or something. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:44:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16112 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:44:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16105; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:44:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA15409; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:43:15 -0800 (PST) To: Nate Williams cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:09:38 MST." <199803040309.UAA05875@mt.sri.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:43:15 -0800 Message-ID: <15405.888997395@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I don't think FreeBSD has the resources do deal with 'serious donors', > any more so than they're doing now. (People with serious money are > willing to hire FreeBSD folks to do 'serious work' on their dime. A This is actually very true. If someone offered me $50K tomorrow to fund SMP development then I'd probably ask them to simply approach Steve Passe directly and save me the extra (*lots* of extra!) paperwork involved. As long as the worker is paid and the work is done, who cares who signs the checks? Well, I care because I'm the one who'd have to sign them if it were me, but I mean in the abstract. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:51:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17260 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:51:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from burka.carrier.kiev.ua (root@burka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.193.193.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17168 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:51:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archer@grape.carrier.kiev.ua) Received: from unicorn.carrier.kiev.ua (unicorn.carrier.kiev.ua [193.193.193.113]) by burka.carrier.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.Who.Cares) with ESMTP id JAA05436 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:50:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from kozlik.carrier.kiev.ua (kozlik.carrier.kiev.ua [193.193.193.111]) by unicorn.carrier.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05955 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:50:52 +0200 (EET) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kozlik.carrier.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.8/8.Who.Cares) with UUCP id JAA10367 for current@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:45:45 +0200 (EET) Received: (from archer@localhost) by grape.carrier.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06426; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:40:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from archer) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:40:03 +0200 (EET) From: Alexander Litvin Message-Id: <199803040740.JAA06426@grape.carrier.kiev.ua> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 X-Newsgroups: grape.freebsd.current In-Reply-To: <34FC7EFC.237C228A@whistle.com> <19980303222750.1133.qmail@devious.lustig.com> <34FC9BBE.6201DD56@whistle.com> Organization: Lucky Grape User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980202 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-CURRENT (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <34FC9BBE.6201DD56@whistle.com> you wrote: > NO Well, what about soft updates being commited to CURRENT? I mean - a lot of stuff is hanging as diffs, and cvsupping and patching each time is a bit annoying. Not to count that patchis are not applied cleanly sometimes. > (though you could try... you could make it a completely removable option > with appropriate ifdefs.) > but the VM interactions would be different > and the vfs interface has changed a bit. > but it might hurt 2.2's stability. > Barry Lustig wrote: >> >> Is anyone planning on back-porting soft-updates to 2.5.X? >> barry -- Litvin Alexander No SIGNATURE available at this run-level To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Tue Mar 3 23:54:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17974 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:54:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (207-172-239-115.s51.as2.rkv.erols.com [207.172.239.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17925; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:54:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA03182; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:57:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) X-Authentication-Warning: quark.ChrisBowman.com: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:57:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: George Michaelson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Tom , Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-Reply-To: <12876.888970239@dstc.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, George Michaelson wrote: > >So I suggest that current not-for-profit trustees be just that: trusted. >-to spend with discretion on relevant activity. If it benefits people who pay, >it should benefit everybody else as well or it doesn't meet tax-free >requirements. Spending $$$ to pay people to finish off significant work, or >to buy h/w to make it possible, thats cool. The wider benefit is plain. I think that we should remind people at this point that FreeBSD, while incorporated, is not incorporated as a 501 (c) 3 or not profit organization (least thats what I thought Jordan said when I asked a few weeks ago) and as such or donations will NOT be tax-free/deductable. --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com My home page To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:02:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19106 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:02:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19036; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA15502; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:01:29 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Amancio Hasty , Chuck Robey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:12:53 GMT." <3501d407.102898087@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:01:29 -0800 Message-ID: <15498.888998489@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As Nate said, it's already been accepted. But the developers getting > paid are fragmented, not organized. That's the wrong way to do it. You seem to enjoy making extremist statements with little in the way of supporting evidence and I rather that wish you'd knock it off because it's distruptive and doesn't further the cause of FreeBSD if that's what you're really, honestly here to do. I'm sorry but it's not the "wrong" way to do it, it's very often the *only* way to do it given certain constraints on your potential "employees." Don't you think I'd just love to go rent a cosy little set of offices somewhere (perhaps in the classic renovated warehouse that seems to be positively mandatory for startups these days :-) and get about 30 full-time FreeBSD developers together working full-time and at very generous salaries? We'd then enjoy all the advantages of a truly close-coupled work environment with big whiteboards all over the place and working lunch meetings and all the other (generally) productivity-enhancing benefits of having a real company with real offices and we'd probably even have a blast doing it. Except for one teeny-tiny little problem: The current group of developers couldn't do it. The current developers are already more than happily employed, or they have families and they don't want to move, or they just plain would HATE working anywhere but at home in their bedrooms at night and are doing FreeBSD largely _because_ it's not taking place at the office. More to the point, there are many of us that get along just fine in email but would probably kill one another if forced to work face-to-face 5 days a week. :-) That's not to say that a company composed of some other group of individuals working on FreeBSD can't be created some day, but I'd just as soon worry about that *after* we've already exhausted the options offered by simply co-opting the employees of other companies (which actually happens to work _very nicely_, thank you very much!) or getting people paid to work at home on FreeBSD on a full-time or contract basis (which we're also already doing). That will result in much less disruption to the current developers' roster and, for a lot of very good reasons, it's a good idea not to substantially screw around with the composition of the FreeBSD development team right now. Not wrong. Pragmatic. Learn the difference! :) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:06:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19968 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:06:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (d182-89.uoregon.edu [128.223.182.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19963 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:06:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA04264; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:06:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:06:32 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Warner Losh , Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803040529.WAA03824@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:30:01PM -0800 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro scribbled this message on Mar 3: [...] > I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of > perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to > good, working pieces of the kernel... > > Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the > system. that would have to be syscons.c closely followed by sio.c... (256 revs to syscons and 199 revs to sio.c)... p.s. Talking about sio, I have some mods that I'm going to be testing that actually make use of the AST/4 register, and should eliminate the COM_MULTIPORT option as it will only test the ports that are under that specific master... (now I just wish that my University would let me put diskless booting options in their bootp/dhcp server so I can boot this one machine diskless :(, guess I'm going to have to use PicoBSD)... -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:13:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21446 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:13:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21409 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:13:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04328; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:08:01 +0100 (CET) To: John-Mark Gurney cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Warner Losh , Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:06:32 PST." <19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:08:00 +0100 Message-ID: <4326.888998880@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>, John-Mark Gurney write s: >Simon Shapiro scribbled this message on Mar 3: > >[...] > >> I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of >> perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to >> good, working pieces of the kernel... >> >> Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the >> system. > >that would have to be syscons.c closely followed by sio.c... (256 revs >to syscons and 199 revs to sio.c)... CVSROOT/modules -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:16:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22356 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:16:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA22277; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:15:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA15644; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:15:00 -0800 (PST) To: "Christopher R. Bowman" cc: George Michaelson , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Tom , Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:57:51 EST." Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:15:00 -0800 Message-ID: <15640.888999300@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think that we should remind people at this point that FreeBSD, > while incorporated, is not incorporated as a 501 (c) 3 or not profit > organization (least thats what I thought Jordan said when I asked > a few weeks ago) and as such or donations will NOT be tax-free/deductable. Yep, that's all made quite clear in the Handbook. If the kind of money starts flowing in that it's worth the extra accounting fees and hassles of running a 501(c)3, I'll certainly considering shifting over to that. FreeBSD, Inc. was declared a not-for-profit organization in the incorporation papers actually, but that's still not the same thing as a non-profit and what Christopher says about tax deductions is completely correct. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:31:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25078 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:31:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA25069; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25251; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:31:12 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA03622; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:31:11 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980304093111.30413@follo.net> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:31:11 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Gary Palmer Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <19980303092719.58779@follo.net> <14599.888976315@gjp.erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <14599.888976315@gjp.erols.com>; from Gary Palmer on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 08:51:55PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 08:51:55PM -0500, Gary Palmer wrote: > Eivind Eklund wrote in message ID > <19980303092719.58779@follo.net>: > > Idea: Would it be politically possible to include a 'dontation' field > > in the registration, where people could key in their credit card > > number, expiry date and the amount they want to donate to further > > FreeBSD development? > > A lot of ppl won't because its not a secure delivery. secure.flp, distributed from the US and Europe separately? This was part of what was implied in 'feasible' above. We should also be allowed to distribute 40-bit SSL freely, shouldn't we? (Not the source code to do it - but that can be taken care of through the normal secure/internaltion distinction, probably). Having said that: The secure/non-secure distinction is a matter of collective insanity. Credit cards are _not_ confidential information. (a) They can be calculated from scratch for less than 5 minutes work. (b) They can be extracted from credit-information companies that have security that can only be likened to an open door. (c) Everybody that use their credit card in any restaurant, hotel, gas-station, or shop is giving out unecrypted credit card information to people that they shouldn't trust. I used to track the so-called hacker/phreacker community pretty closely - the largest number of cards come from (b), while the largest number of people get cards from (c). _Anybody_ can get cards from (c) if they put down a tiny amount of work on it. Any kid playing at being a 'hacker' (media term) can get cards from source (b) through other kids not playing quite so lousy. At least the fact that any kid knows another kid that works in a gas-station should be obvious to the averagely clued person that takes 2 secs to think about it. Sorry for the steam; back to your regular programming. (I've just been frustrated over this for a _long_ time). > > If the estimated number of users is correct, and each donated $10, > > there'd be a cool $5M to improve FreeBSD. > > One way right now is to bu the CDROM ... its more than $10 I know, but > the proceeds are used to better the project. I'm doing that, but it isn't really a good way (for me) - it implies extra work, and it implies that part of what I pay go to something I don't need. I'd feel much better about giving money directly to the project. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:42:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26454 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:42:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from safeconcept.utimaco.co.at (mail-gw.utimaco.co.at [195.96.28.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA26449 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:42:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Michael.Schuster@utimaco.co.at) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by safeconcept.utimaco.co.at (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16625 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:27:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from ultra1.utimaco.co.at(10.0.0.32) by safeconcept via smap (V2.0) id xma016622; Wed, 4 Mar 98 09:27:25 +0100 Message-ID: <34FD13B9.DC443527@utimaco.co.at> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:41:29 +0100 From: Michael Schuster Organization: Utimaco Safe Concept GmbH. Linz Austria X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "current@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan said: > > What about a special net subscription, which gives you a login id and > > password for a FTP/WWW server that gives you guarrenteed access? I hate > > it when I need to get something (last time was a copy of committlogs to > > see what had changes in libc_r), and ftp.freebsd.org is full. > I really don't want to > get into anything which creates a set of "haves and have-nots", even > if the haves have spent money for it, since things start to get a > little dubious at that point. I strongly second this. If you donate (Thank you!), then it should be quite clear that it is exactly that: a DONATION. FreeBSD Inc. decides what to do with the money. Maybe there's a web-page somewhere giving a rough account of what the money was spent on. If you like what they do with the money, and you like the direction FreeBSD takes, you can donate again. If not, then you just leave it. Suggestions (NOT demands!) will always be welcome (but that's what its like anyway). therefore: > It wouldn't be the "haves" and "have-nots", just the "right now", "maybe > now" group. Everyone can get the same stuff. No. > 1) The members only user group > 2) The ftp/www login for access when ftp.freebsd.org is full No. FreeBSD must remain truly free (in the sense it is now): nobody has more read-access than anybody else; there's no mailing list(s) just for donators or such nonsense. Whoever wants to participate can do so. If you contribute source or whatever, it will be judged by its value, and not by your name (even if that may piss off people). Imagine this scenrio: I donate $xxx, so I "expect" that FreeBSD implements my favourite whatnot. As it happens, implementing even whatnot-beta-01 turns out to be much harder than I expected. Nevertheless, since I "paid", I will start demanding delivery. This is of course only a ridiculous thought-experiment, but you'll get my meaning. If somebody really wants something done and is prepared to pay for it, why, they can hire someone themselves and have it done. OK, so I've got this off my chest. thinking about all this, maybe I'll donate as well ... -- Michael Schuster To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 00:56:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27483 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:56:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA27477 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-11.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.139]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA00325; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:56:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id AAA14668; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:56:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:56:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040856.AAA14668@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org CC: nate@mt.sri.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com In-reply-to: (message from Simon Shapiro on Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:55:55 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * > Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or * > dinner with any of you guys. :) * * Your address (So I can drop by)? It's on my homepage. (Where my homepage is, I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader. :) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 01:16:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29822 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:16:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.ripco.com (relay.ripco.com [209.100.227.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29812 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:16:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rezidew@rezidew.net) Received: (qmail 28985 invoked from network); 4 Mar 1998 09:16:19 -0000 Received: from soap.rezidew.net (HELO rezidew.net) (209.100.228.86) by relay.ripco.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1998 09:16:19 -0000 Message-ID: <34FD1CF8.5A3013DB@rezidew.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 03:20:56 -0600 From: Graphic Rezidew Organization: rezidew.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-971225-SNAP i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Satoshi Asami CC: dg@root.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, nate@mt.sri.com Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <199803040856.AAA14668@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Satoshi Asami wrote: > > * > Just drop by anytime to my office and I'll be happy to have a lunch or > * > dinner with any of you guys. :) > * > * Your address (So I can drop by)? > > It's on my homepage. (Where my homepage is, I'll leave it as an > exercise to the reader. :) > > Satoshi Is it ok if we just call your office and get directions? -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Know what I hate most? Rhetorical questions. -- Henry N. Camp ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Graphic Rezidew rezidew@rezidew.net http://Graphic.Rezidew.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 01:18:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00308 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fw.tue.le (pC19F2328.dip.t-online.de [193.159.35.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA00239 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:17:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thz@lennartz-electronic.de) Received: from mezcal.tue.le (mezcal.tue.le [192.168.201.20]) by fw.tue.le (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14820; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:14:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from thz@mezcal.tue.le) Received: (from thz@localhost) by mezcal.tue.le (8.8.5/8.8.8) id KAA06616; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:14:09 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from thz) Message-ID: <19980304101409.50851@tue.le> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:14:09 +0100 From: Thomas Zenker To: John Kelly Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <199803040003.RAA03710@mt.sri.com> <3500c33c.98603282@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3500c33c.98603282@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 03:05:02AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 03:05:02AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:43 -0700, Nate Williams > wrote: > > >understanding that it's only a hint. > > >Whaddya think? > > For small contributions it might be a workable model, but you'll never > attract serious money if you're not willing to do the donors' bidding. > > Who was it that said to ban corporate contributions, Jordan? That's > silly. As long as the source code remains free, everyone gets the > benefit, no matter how narrow the donor's request might seem. After > all, it's THEIR MONEY and they don't have to part with it if they > don't want to. > > All of you are thinking too small. THINK BIG! > Never sell your ass! If you are willing to accept the donors' bidding, it is no longer a donation but biz and FBSD is in danger to loose its' independence. This would create the possibility for corporates to step in and we all would loose wether source code stays free or not. What about someone like M$ Bill influence the directions for FBSD? NEVER! Thomas Zenker To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 02:30:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA07320 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:30:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA07312 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:30:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id VAA06514; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:27:18 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303212718.05423@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:27:18 -0600 From: dannyman To: Leo Papandreou , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund References: <19980303182941.57473@homer.supersex.com> <199803040025.QAA18908@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980303202608.04873@homer.supersex.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980303202608.04873@homer.supersex.com>; from Leo Papandreou on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 08:26:08PM -0500 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 08:26:08PM -0500, Leo Papandreou wrote: > On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:25:34PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > I would advise against putting words in WC's mouth. Jordan is probably > > the only person that you should listen to for comment here, as he can > > speak for both Walnut Creek CDROM and for FreeBSD Inc., both of whom > > can play a useful part in making donations both easy and accountable. > > Well, sure; I was just speculating idly. Personally I see nothing > wrong with WC handling the transactions. Me neither, I only spoke without thinking. :) -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 02:30:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA07337 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:30:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA07309; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:30:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id RAA16065; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303170326.27546@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:26 -0600 From: dannyman To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Smith Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund References: <199803032130.NAA17979@dingo.cdrom.com> <12436.888965846@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <12436.888965846@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:57:26PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:57:26PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > It's not a problem - WC has already agreed to handle this for us, we > just never followed through with the appropriate information being > made available to the user base. See previous mail about this one - > I'm moving forward with it now. *cheers Jordon on* I can just hear Jordan's braincells clicking "they wanna pay me! they wanna give us lots of money to make FreeBSD. this is so so so damned f___ing cool! i'm as excited as a little girl!" -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 03:18:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13103 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:18:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@mail.ftf.dk [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13098 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:18:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10343; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:07:47 +0100 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA28750; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:27:02 +0100 (CET) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id MAA18359; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:17:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19980304121706.60591@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:17:06 +0100 From: Philippe Regnauld To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: <34FCF399.2B4B879A@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:36:07PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386 Organization: PROSA Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro writes: > > Sorry. I do not consume alcoholic beverages, and as a result my knowledge > of these matters is very poor. How CAN you code ?? :-P -- -[ Philippe Regnauld / sysadmin / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk / +55.4N +11.3E ]- «Pluto placed his bad dog at the entrance of Hades to keep the dead IN and the living OUT! The archetypical corporate firewall?» - S. Kelly Bootle, ("MYTHOLOGY", in Marutukku distrib) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 03:20:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13446 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:20:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13439; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:20:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA03937; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:20:03 -0800 (PST) To: dannyman cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Smith , sthaug@nethelp.no, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:03:26 CST." <19980303170326.27546@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 03:20:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3925.889010403@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I can just hear Jordan's braincells clicking "they wanna pay me! they wanna > give us lots of money to make FreeBSD. this is so so so damned f___ing cool! > i'm as excited as a little girl!" Uhhhhh. No, not really. But that's close enough, I guess. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 04:32:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26051 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:32:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA26044; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:32:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA18644; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:32:07 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Steve Logue Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:34:05 GMT Message-ID: <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id EAA26046 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 06:17:37 +0000, Steve Logue wrote: >John Kelly wrote: > >> I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets >> funded. > >Simple - straight, and perfectly worded. May we now debate the dollar >amount? Some have reacted with horror to this idea but it seems pragmatic to me. How about one vote for every $250 donated? A donor of $750 would have three votes. Design a ballot with suggested projects, and vote on your favorite 10 in order of preference. The top vote getters become funded. Obviously, the more you donate the more you can influence the vote, but that's as it should be. It's not a political democracy. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 04:42:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27708 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:42:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [195.89.149.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA27690; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:42:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15325; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:36:40 GMT Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13033; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:41:49 GMT Message-ID: <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:41:49 +0000 To: John Kelly Cc: Steve Logue , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:34:05PM +0000 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:34:05PM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > >> I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets > >> funded. > > > >Simple - straight, and perfectly worded. May we now debate the dollar > >amount? > > Some have reacted with horror to this idea but it seems pragmatic to > me. > > How about one vote for every $250 donated? A donor of $750 would have > three votes. Design a ballot with suggested projects, and vote on > your favorite 10 in order of preference. The top vote getters become > funded. > > Obviously, the more you donate the more you can influence the vote, > but that's as it should be. It's not a political democracy. Will not work. Developers (and other contributors) work on a particular facet of FreeBSD for (as far as I can tell) one of two reasons. 1. They want to. 2. They are employed specifically to do that. If a developer wants to work on (for example) 'syscons' and all the voters would rather they spent more time on 'networking', the developer can cheerfully ignore all the votes, and do what they want anyway. The *only* use for a system like this would be where someone maintained a list of projects that need to be undertaken, and a ranking of those projects based on the votes. A developer with some spare time, and no particular preference as to which part of the system they want to work on next could then consult this list to find out what might be most useful to the project as a whole. Letting the voters decide what gets funded is also a stunningly bad idea. Influence over FreeBSD should be on the basis of technical merit, not amount of cash you have to spend. David G is the principal architect not because he paid Jordan & co. wads of cash (at least, I assume he didn't :-) ) but because he understands the technical work involved, and is trusted by the rest of -core to do the right thing. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 04:48:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28641 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:48:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA28623; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:48:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA19509; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:48:31 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:50:30 GMT Message-ID: <34fe4a87.1266405@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803040729.CAA00653@dyson.iquest.net> In-Reply-To: <199803040729.CAA00653@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id EAA28625 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:29:31 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" wrote: >I would hate to think that someone might believe that they are getting >much influence even with $500. If an average FreeBSD kernel developer's >billing rate is between $25 and $150, the $500 doesn't fund much time. I understand that, John. Having individual influence is not the point. Having collective influence is. With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do that. A reasonable billing rate should be standard for all developers who want the work. $150 is too high. $50 - $75 is more reasonable. Perhaps famous developers should get $75, while others get a little less. The opportunity to work directly for the furtherance of FreeBSD is valuable. Even famous developers should be willing to compromise on their rate to obtain the best work that can be had. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 04:54:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29260 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:54:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [195.89.149.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA29217; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:53:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15514; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:48:08 GMT Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13049; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:53:18 GMT Message-ID: <19980304125317.08692@iii.co.uk> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:53:17 +0000 To: John Kelly Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey , jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <199803040729.CAA00653@dyson.iquest.net> <34fe4a87.1266405@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <34fe4a87.1266405@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:50:30PM +0000 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:50:30PM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be > deciding what gets funded. Yes they should. They do the work, they get the responsibility to decide what to work on. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 05:03:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA00411 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:03:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA00406; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA20464; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:03:34 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: nik@iii.co.uk Cc: Steve Logue , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:05:32 GMT Message-ID: <350150dc.2887681@mail.cetlink.net> References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA00407 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:41:49 +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote: >> How about one vote for every $250 donated? A donor of $750 would have >> three votes. Design a ballot with suggested projects, and vote on >> your favorite 10 in order of preference. The top vote getters become >> funded. >Will not work. Developers (and other contributors) work on a particular >facet of FreeBSD for (as far as I can tell) one of two reasons. > > 1. They want to. > > 2. They are employed specifically to do that. > >If a developer wants to work on (for example) 'syscons' and all the >voters would rather they spent more time on 'networking', the developer >can cheerfully ignore all the votes, and do what they want anyway. Developers who want to choose their own projects can continue working pro bono. But developers who want to get paid for the work should be willing to work under the donors direction. That's the way it works in the real world. I don't know why some of you are having such a hard time with this idea. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 05:12:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01554 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:12:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [195.89.149.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA01545 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:12:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15798; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:06:24 GMT Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13090; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:11:33 GMT Message-ID: <19980304131132.19720@iii.co.uk> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:11:32 +0000 To: John Kelly Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk> <350150dc.2887681@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <350150dc.2887681@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 01:05:32PM +0000 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 01:05:32PM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > Developers who want to choose their own projects can continue working > pro bono. But developers who want to get paid for the work should be > willing to work under the donors direction. That's fine. If, and only if, the donor is willing to fund the entire project themselves. Otherwise, you get the following: 2 projects. Both of them important to FreeBSD. Project A is slick, sexy, and will attract lots of attention. Project B isn't as attractive, but still needs doing. You, the donor (who (probably) has only a small understanding of the FreeBSD internals) really wants project A to happen. David Greenmen, principal architect, believes that project B is more important to FreeBSD (perhaps there are three other projects that can't get off the ground until project B is completed). All other things being equal (i.e., there's a spare developer who's looking for something to hack on, and they could do either of the two projects) which project gets tackled first? For a real world example, go and examine the issues surrounding tax hypothecation, and why this is (generally) a bad idea. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 05:51:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA07129 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:51:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA07118; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:51:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA01448; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:50:30 GMT." <34fe4a87.1266405@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800 Message-ID: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be > deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by > the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do > that. This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now? Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 06:05:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08732 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:05:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA08707; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:05:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA24530; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:05:30 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:07:29 GMT Message-ID: <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net> References: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA08711 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be >> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by >> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do >> that. > >This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have >a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate >funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now? > > Jordan Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do. If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone else will. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 06:35:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11662 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:35:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA11636; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:34:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05317; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:06:10 +0100 (CET) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:07:29 GMT." <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:06:09 +0100 Message-ID: <5315.889020369@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net>, John Kelly writes: >On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" > wrote: > >>> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be >>> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by >>> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do >>> that. >> >>This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have >>a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate >>funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now? >> >> Jordan > >Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do. > >If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone >else will. Good! We don't need what in Denmark is called "Sticky Money". -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 06:35:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11713 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:35:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA11648; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:35:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05270; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:03:42 +0100 (CET) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:50:30 GMT." <34fe4a87.1266405@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:03:42 +0100 Message-ID: <5268.889020222@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I understand that, John. Having individual influence is not the >point. Having collective influence is. > >With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be >deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by >the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do >that. >Even famous developers should be willing to compromise >on their rate to obtain the best work that can be had. Remember that what might make this "the best work that can be had" might largely be the freedom to not have your goals set for you. There are a lot of things in FreeBSD that you wouldn't be able to make me touch with a long stick, even for insane amounts of money. I would prefer that it works this way: 1. People express their wishes and desires on the mailing lists as usual. It doesn't make a difference if people donate or not. 2. If somebody wants something badly, and wants to pay for it, he hires some people to do it for him. 3. People donate insane amount of money because the think FreeBSD is a good thing. 4. The core-team decides how to use the donations, based on the current situation, into which of course the input from 1. factors as always. 5. If people don't like what the core team decides, goto #1, skip #3. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 06:55:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14088 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:55:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA14081; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:55:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@bowtie.nl) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 23166 on Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:15:08 GMT; id OAA23166 efrom: marc@bowtie.nl; eto: UNKNOWN Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bowtie.nl (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11493; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: nik@iii.co.uk, Steve Logue , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: jak's message of Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:05:32 +0000. <350150dc.2887681@mail.cetlink.net> Reply-to: marc@bowtie.nl Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100 From: Marc van Kempen Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:41:49 +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote: > > >> How about one vote for every $250 donated? A donor of $750 would have > >> three votes. Design a ballot with suggested projects, and vote on > >> your favorite 10 in order of preference. The top vote getters become > >> funded. > > >Will not work. Developers (and other contributors) work on a particular > >facet of FreeBSD for (as far as I can tell) one of two reasons. > > > > 1. They want to. > > > > 2. They are employed specifically to do that. > > > >If a developer wants to work on (for example) 'syscons' and all the > >voters would rather they spent more time on 'networking', the developer > >can cheerfully ignore all the votes, and do what they want anyway. > > Developers who want to choose their own projects can continue working > pro bono. But developers who want to get paid for the work should be > willing to work under the donors direction. > > That's the way it works in the real world. I don't know why some of > you are having such a hard time with this idea. > I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money. That is: they don't say what developers should do in their free time and what to hack on, but what developers that will be hired with the donated money will work on. But I don't think the amount of influence of your vote should be related to the amount of money donated. This ofcourse gives rise to a lot of problems like people sending in n donations of $10 to get n votes, but I guess you could draw up rules for that. Perhaps there should be two possibilities: 1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing. 2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it. Regards, Marc. ---------------------------------------------------- Marc van Kempen BowTie Technology Email: marc@bowtie.nl WWW & Databases tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65 fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86 http://www.bowtie.nl ---------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:08:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16252 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:08:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16245 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:08:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA25785; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:21:35 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: marc@bowtie.nl Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:23:33 GMT Message-ID: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl> In-Reply-To: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id HAA16246 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100, Marc van Kempen wrote: >I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to >donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money. >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing. >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it. In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:11:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17095 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:11:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA17063; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id IAA17985; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:37:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id IAA14502; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:37:21 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980304083721.56007@mcs.net> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:37:21 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: John Kelly Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com> <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:07:29PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:07:29PM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" > wrote: > > >> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be > >> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by > >> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do > >> that. > > > >This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have > >a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate > >funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now? > > > > Jordan > > Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do. > > If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone > else will. Bingo. MCSNet could make a reasonably-sized donation to this cause (few thousand bucks) and would have no problem with doing so. In fact, if we had some idea what that incremental funding would do, I could make the business case to be significantly more generous. Simply put, money ain't the issue. The issue is that there are certain things that we really *NEED* fixed, and to stay as priorities in remaining fixed as time goes on (things that used to work, and are now broken for example - specifically, NFS issues for one, and behavior under troublesome SCSI conditions [ie: returns of a defective block from the controller] for another). I'm running kernels and OSs patched up from November, specifically because since then the stability of -CURRENT is bad enough from both direct observation and reports that if the risks grossly outweigh the rewards of trying to roll an upgrade through the network right now. If I fund the *breakage* of something critical to us, I'm shooting myself in the foot. That's unwise. I understand that Jordan and the rest of the core team have their own priorities. They sometimes don't mesh with mine. Ok, good and well. I work around what I can, patch around what I can't work around, and remain a few rev levels back if necessary in certain areas. That level of choice is one of the nicities of a free operating system environment with source code in a CVS tree. But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:13:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17644 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:13:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk ([195.89.149.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA17609 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:13:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20768; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:07:24 GMT Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13239; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:12:34 GMT Message-ID: <19980304151233.15804@iii.co.uk> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:12:33 +0000 To: John Kelly Cc: marc@bowtie.nl, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl> <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:23:33PM +0000 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:23:33PM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > >I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to > >donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money. > > >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing. > >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it. > > In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials > don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do. What elected officials? I don't recall ever electing anyone to the core team. Nor, to be frank, would I want to. Core team members (and other contributors) are self selecting, because they're willing to put the work in, not because they present the best image to the 'voters'. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:22:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19988 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:22:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from loas.clark.net (root@loas.clark.net [168.143.0.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19931 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:21:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from proberts@clark.net) Received: from shell.clark.net (proberts@shell [168.143.0.8]) by loas.clark.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27559; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (proberts@localhost) by shell.clark.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23347; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:21:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.clark.net: proberts owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:21:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Paul D. Robertson" To: John Kelly cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing. > >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it. > > In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials > don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do. We've all seen how well that works in the real world when financial interests get their way over the common good. Just say "No" to FeeBSD. Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul D. Robertson "My statements in this message are personal opinions proberts@clark.net which may have no basis whatsoever in fact." PSB#9280 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:34:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22023 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:34:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22006 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05484; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:26:55 +0100 (CET) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: marc@bowtie.nl, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:23:33 GMT." <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:26:54 +0100 Message-ID: <5482.889025214@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net>, John Kelly writes: >On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100, Marc van Kempen >wrote: > >>I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to >>donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money. > >>1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing. >>2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it. > >In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials >don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do. The real world is whatever we make it. If you don't like the way this is done, keep your money. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 07:56:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24318 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:56:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA24310; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:56:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05534; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:51:17 +0100 (CET) To: Karl Denninger cc: John Kelly , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:37:21 CST." <19980304083721.56007@mcs.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:51:16 +0100 Message-ID: <5532.889026676@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I understand that Jordan and the rest of the core team have their own >priorities. They sometimes don't mesh with mine. Ok, good and well. I >work around what I can, patch around what I can't work around, and remain >a few rev levels back if necessary in certain areas. That level of choice >is one of the nicities of a free operating system environment with source >code in a CVS tree. > >But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able >to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way. Karl, You're clearly into the category here, where you should consider paying somebody to fix the problems which plague your machines. Remember that many of us do not posses the needed setups to reproduce the problems reported in the NFS area. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 08:08:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26088 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:08:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25873; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:07:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06990; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:06:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:06:51 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: John Kelly cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" > wrote: > > >> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be > >> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by > >> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do > >> that. > > > >This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have > >a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate > >funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now? > > > > Jordan > > Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do. > > If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone > else will. And if you're only attracted by the dollar amounts, MicroSoft will take your money. You've a choice of being insulted that no one wants to commercialize their hobby, accepting it, or going to MicroSoft, where they will gladly take your money. As it stands now, FreeBSD will listen to you for free, and give you far more attention than MicroSoft will give you for 10 million bucks. If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks, why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so? > > -- > Browser war over, Mozilla now free. > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 08:08:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26102 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:08:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gjp.erols.com (alex-va-n008c243.moon.jic.com [206.156.18.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26083 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:08:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) Received: from gjp.erols.com (localhost.erols.com [127.0.0.1]) by gjp.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15907; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:08:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: John-Mark Gurney cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Warner Losh , Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:06:32 PST." <19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:08:01 -0500 Message-ID: <15903.889027681@gjp.erols.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John-Mark Gurney wrote in message ID <19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>: > Simon Shapiro scribbled this message on Mar 3: > > Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of the > > system. > > that would have to be syscons.c closely followed by sio.c... (256 revs > to syscons and 199 revs to sio.c)... $Id: bsd.port.mk,v 1.267 1997/11/20 05:33:56 asami Exp $ Gary (who contributed to more than a few revs of that :) ) -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 08:55:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02925 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:55:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02917; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:55:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01618; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:55:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803041655.IAA01618@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Karl Denninger cc: John Kelly , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:37:21 CST." <19980304083721.56007@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:54:59 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able > to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way. Thats an easy one there are folks like me who are consultants which wouldn't mine helping you to shake your money tree. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:09:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04594 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:09:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from home.dragondata.com (toasty@home.dragondata.com [204.137.237.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04580 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toasty@home.dragondata.com) Received: (from toasty@localhost) by home.dragondata.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA03872; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:08:52 -0600 (CST) From: Kevin Day Message-Id: <199803041708.LAA03872@home.dragondata.com> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <5532.889026676@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Mar 4, 98 04:51:16 pm" To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:08:51 -0600 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Karl, > > You're clearly into the category here, where you should consider paying > somebody to fix the problems which plague your machines. Remember that > many of us do not posses the needed setups to reproduce the problems > reported in the NFS area. > > Poul-Henning On a side note: I believe that Karl and I are one of the few ISP-like environments trying to run -current with NFS. I've got no problem with anyone who is trusted here to come on and test NFS related patches, or experiment a bit on my server. Seriously, most of the bugs can be reproduced by having /usr/src over NFS, and doing the following: cp /dev/zero /usr/src/blah & make buildworld -j4 That will usually cause a different panic every time, within 2 minutes. :) It is impossible for me to copy an 80MB core file across nfs on a -current NFS client, and a 2.2.x server. I'm in no position to pay anyone to fix it, and I'm really not complaining. :) I'm just offering anyone who wants to watch a busy -current SMP server, with /home and /var/mail mounted across NFS3, a free ticket. :) Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:11:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04816 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:11:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04811 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:10:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA17103; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd017098; Wed Mar 4 09:09:10 1998 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:04:57 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Alexander Litvin cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 In-Reply-To: <199803040740.JAA06426@grape.carrier.kiev.ua> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Alexander Litvin wrote: > In article <34FC9BBE.6201DD56@whistle.com> you wrote: > > NO > > Well, what about soft updates being commited to CURRENT? > > I mean - a lot of stuff is hanging as diffs, and cvsupping > and patching each time is a bit annoying. Not to count that > patchis are not applied cleanly sometimes. it will be committed in the next couple of days.. > > > (though you could try... you could make it a completely removable option > > with appropriate ifdefs.) > > > but the VM interactions would be different > > and the vfs interface has changed a bit. > > > but it might hurt 2.2's stability. > > > > Barry Lustig wrote: > >> > >> Is anyone planning on back-porting soft-updates to 2.5.X? > >> barry > > -- > Litvin Alexander > > No SIGNATURE available at this run-level > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:16:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06478 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:16:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06466 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:16:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05780; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:11:32 +0100 (CET) To: Julian Elischer cc: Alexander Litvin , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Panic with CURRENT & softupdates-240298 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:04:57 PST." Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:11:32 +0100 Message-ID: <5778.889031492@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Julian Elischer writes: > > >On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Alexander Litvin wrote: > >> In article <34FC9BBE.6201DD56@whistle.com> you wrote: >> > NO >> >> Well, what about soft updates being commited to CURRENT? >> >> I mean - a lot of stuff is hanging as diffs, and cvsupping >> and patching each time is a bit annoying. Not to count that >> patchis are not applied cleanly sometimes. > >it will be committed in the next couple of days.. Not quite, we need a little more time to get the ELF integration done. Julian: you could use the BRANCH which -core approved for this use. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:26:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08315 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:26:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (adm@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08287 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:26:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mestery@mail.winternet.com) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00506; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma000355; Wed, 4 Mar 98 11:25:19 -0600 Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA17777; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:17 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: tundra.winternet.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:17 -0600 (CST) From: Kyle Mestery To: John Kelly cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100, Marc van Kempen > wrote: > > >I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to > >donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money. > > >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing. > >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it. > > In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials > don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do. > In the real world, it's always number 2. But this is a FREE software project. I highly doubt the core team wants people dropping by with lots of money and even more demands as to what the money should be used for. The fact that a lot of people work on this project as a hobby is one of the things that makes it so attractive. Besides, arguing this point anymore appears to be mute, as Jordan has already expressed his views. Also, I dont recall voting for any core team members (elected officials). -- Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Network Systems Group "Keep honking, I'm reloading." "Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 09:51:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11542 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:51:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [207.149.232.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11537 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:51:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rgrimes@GndRsh.aac.dev.com) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11059; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:47:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rgrimes) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199803041747.JAA11059@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 10:59:26 am" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:47:25 -0800 (PST) Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > On 03-Mar-98 Brian Handy wrote: > >>> Also, anyone donating to the project gets a signed picture of their > >>> favorite core member. > >>> > >>Otherwise, if people don't donate, they get a picture of me, or worse, > >>a penguin :-). > > > > ...and periodic mailings that if you don't send more money, we're sending > > you more photos of the core team. :-) > > Here are few more ideas: > > $3.00 gets you a window sticker (in a yelow diamond) ``This driver Carries > only $29.95 worth of FreeBSD CD'' I'll take 2... > > $5.00 gets you a lapel Button ``I had Lunch with DG'' Do I get one for free if I really did have lunch with DG, heck for that matter 50% of the core team if I'm not mistaken :-) > $25.00 Gets you a bumper sticker ``I Understand what Terry says and... > Agree with Him'' I'll take 3.... > The opportunities here are endless. Any Lawyer out there to incorporate, > patent, copyright and declare these undoable? No lawyer, by a self incorporator, could have you a 501(c)3 in a few days in Oregon. Fully familiar with the tax code in that respect, and owe JHK a dirt project... Also have Merchant Visa accounts and good bank relations with a bank that gives a ____ about thier customers. Access to lega councel that specilized in 501(c) stuff, etc, etc.... oh and I'm all of 30minutes away from you. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:01:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12716 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:01:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12710 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:01:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0yAITA-0002Fh-00; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:00:40 -0700 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA06957; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:00:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803041800.LAA06957@harmony.village.org> To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:30:01 PST." References: Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:00:23 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Simon Shapiro writes: : > mechanism. For shooting people that make really ill considered : > changes to the tree. : : This is one firearm brand I do not recognize. Cheap for a 357... Well, there is a minor problem with that make. It will sometimes explode in your hand... : > for $500.00 you can get your own jkh motocycle faring, complete with : > biking leathers, sport helment (complete with chuckie decal :-) and : > three gallons of bad attitude. : : The last item seems to be free in these circles... Yes. But does it come in its own 1 gallon cans, with a picture of JKH on it? Sure, you can get free refills at any time, but the cans alone are priceless. Any shrine to jkh would be doublely enhanced by these icons. : I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of : perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to : good, working pieces of the kernel... :-). And you should have seen the ones that I was too sheepish to post.... No, wait, this is sounding like Terry's unreleased tree of mythic yore.... And for $5000 you too can be abducted by space aliens using FreeBSD to power their ship. See interesting places, have interesting medical proceedures done, witness untold beauty, and unspeakable horrors. Be the topic of your very own X-Files episode (with 1/2 of the royalties going to the FreeBSD project, of course). Finally understand the mysteries that are src/sys/*/nfs*.c. Learn the mysteries of crop circles andWe guarantee that you won't be abducted by anyone whose CEO testifies before congress, or space ships run by their software.... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:09:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14050 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:09:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14021 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:08:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05975; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:03:08 +0100 (CET) To: Warner Losh cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG, "John S.Dyson" Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:00:23 MST." <199803041800.LAA06957@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:03:08 +0100 Message-ID: <5973.889034588@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803041800.LAA06957@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh writes: >And for $5000 you too can be abducted by space aliens using FreeBSD to >power their ship. See interesting places, have interesting medical >proceedures done, witness untold beauty, and unspeakable horrors. Be >the topic of your very own X-Files episode (with 1/2 of the royalties >going to the FreeBSD project, of course). Finally understand the >mysteries that are src/sys/*/nfs*.c. Learn the mysteries of crop >circles andWe guarantee that you won't be abducted by anyone whose CEO >testifies before congress, or space ships run by their software.... And for a mere $20 you can make $55000 in a few weeks! Ok, can we take this of current ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:16:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16018 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:16:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15985; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:16:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14239; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:16:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA09958; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:16:18 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:16:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199803041816.LAA09958@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Cc: Steve Logue , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> I'll donate $250 or more, but only for a vote on what work gets > >> funded. ... > > Some have reacted with horror to this idea but it seems pragmatic to > me. That's because you aren't the one doing the work. You can't force me to do the work, and as was stated, $250 is peanuts. Heck, I did $250 worth of work last night for free working on porting an ethernet driver from PAO to FreeBSD at my consulting wages (for free even). > Obviously, the more you donate the more you can influence the vote, > but that's as it should be. It's not a political democracy. It's not a democracy at all. That's why I think a 'hint' is a better way to go. You get the warm fuzzy feeling that you are making a choice, but you aren't *expecting* your vote to come true. More like a wish than a vote. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:19:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16667 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16605; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:19:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803041819.KAA16605@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 4, 98 02:23:33 pm" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:19:20 -0800 (PST) Cc: marc@bowtie.nl, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Kelly wrote: > >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing. > >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it. > > In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials > don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do. 386BSD 386BSD,FreeBSD,NetBSD 386BSD,FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD 386BSD,FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD,DonorBSD 386BSD,FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD,DonorBSD,JimBSD,BobBSD,BoyBSD. yawn. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:24:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17715 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:24:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17691 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:24:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14282; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10052; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199803041823.LAA10052@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Cc: marc@bowtie.nl, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl> <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to > >donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money. > > >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing. > >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it. > > In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials > don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do. This is my point exactly. You paid your money, you told them what you like, but there is no guarantee that you got what you wanted. (As a matter of fact, you probably didn't.) But, if you *like* what they did even so, you give more money. So, you don't get 'control', you get to state what you like and hope that the developers choose to impliment it. If they do, great. If they don't, great too, but you may choose not to give more money in the future because they didn't do what you wanted them to do. Note, there is no *expectation* of getting your way, just a hint/wish that they will do it, that they are aware of. If alot of people 'hint' a certain direction, it would make sense to fulfill these wishes if more donations are desired by the core team, so it's in their best interest to keep you happy (sort of like elected officials). Your money is a suggestion to do things the way you like, and if they don't follow you suggestion then you get to take your money elsewhwere. However, you may still like the job they are doing even if they don't do exactly the same thing you want. No voting involved, just expressing your desire to have things done a certain way. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:42:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21098 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:42:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21073 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:42:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06137; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:33:43 +0100 (CET) To: Kevin Day cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:08:51 CST." <199803041708.LAA03872@home.dragondata.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:33:43 +0100 Message-ID: <6135.889036423@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803041708.LAA03872@home.dragondata.com>, Kevin Day writes: >Seriously, most of the bugs can be reproduced by having /usr/src over NFS, >and doing the following: > >cp /dev/zero /usr/src/blah & >make buildworld -j4 I just did this on a laptop that happens to be here on a visit. only special thing here is that the laptop runs soft-updates... ALT-F2 mount phk:/usr/src /usr/src cd /usr/src ; make world ALT-F1 cd /usr/src ; dd if=/dev/zero bs=32k of=foo and it hangs solid :-( I'll ponder the packet trace for a moment and see if I can figure something out. The laptop is stoned and I can't get it into DDB :-( -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:42:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21339 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:42:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [207.149.232.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21278 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:42:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rgrimes@GndRsh.aac.dev.com) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11107; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:40:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rgrimes) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199803041840.KAA11107@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Fund In-Reply-To: <199803032130.NAA17979@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Mar 3, 98 01:30:01 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:40:10 -0800 (PST) Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I wish somebody would think seriously about that. It would be *far* easier > > for me to donate money using my VISA card than with a check. (Not to mention > > the fact that the fee for a $25 check in the bank here is not much smaller > > than the value of the check itself...) > > Try a postal money order. > > Seriously, accepting credit card donations is expensive work. Aside > from the 5% cut that the bank gets, you have to treat the money like > it's on elastic. As a ``merchant'' whos does ~$20,000k/month in Visa/Mastercard I can correct some of this. First the rates are 1.85 to 3.5% depending on type(Visa/MC/American Express/Etc), size(lots of small ones cost more than a few large ones) and style(Card in Hand Swiped/Card in Hand Inprinted, Phoned in number, Internet secure transaction, etc) of transaction. > > And unless you have someone else handling it for you, you won't get a > bank's attention until you're talking in six figures a year. If your bank won't listen to you at 5 figures a year find another bank... smaller banks are much easier and far more flexiable in doing business -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:45:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22054 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:45:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA22038 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:45:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02166; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:03:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803041803.KAA02166@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Kyle Mestery cc: John Kelly , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:25:17 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:03:12 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Let me see if I can get you guys back on track, the FreeBSD project can clearly use funding to further improve the system. We can all benefit greatly if many us donate a small amount of money and thats specially true in my case since I spend so much time on FreeBSD that is really easy for me to see the cost justification for a small donation. I suggested that I would like to see further work on SMP however it is really up to the project to see that the work gets done or to fund whatever aspect of the system they think they can tackle on. Is that simple. For example, *NO* amount of money is going to coherce me into doing something I don't want to do --- got that problem right now with a small startup project -- I ain't interested even though I know there is going to be money made if the project is brought to completion. With respect to companies and their targetted needs this funding channel is not appropriate and most of you who are in this scenario know it. So please donate to the FreeBSD Project and do *suggest* what you like to see done . I consider both aspects equally important. Amancio > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > > > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:14:21 +0100, Marc van Kempen > > wrote: > > > > >I would agree with this, people will be much more inclined to > > >donate if they get a say what's to happen with this money. > > > > >1. Donate money and you trust the core group to do the sensible thing. > > >2. Donate money and vote for what happens with it. > > > > In the real world it's always number 2. And if the elected officials > > don't respect the voters wishes, replace them with ones who do. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:46:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22660 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA22620 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:46:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 8182 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 18:53:32 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980304000632.51752@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:53:32 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: John-Mark Gurney Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: "John S.Dyson" , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Brian Handy , Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 John-Mark Gurney wrote: > Simon Shapiro scribbled this message on Mar 3: > > [...] > >> I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of >> perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to >> good, working pieces of the kernel... >> >> Oh, we need a special reward for this; The most re-written portion of >> the >> system. > > that would have to be syscons.c closely followed by sio.c... (256 revs > to syscons and 199 revs to sio.c)... What about a complete subsystem award? I can think of few that can qualify... > p.s. Talking about sio, I have some mods that I'm going to be testing > that actually make use of the AST/4 register, and should eliminate > the COM_MULTIPORT option as it will only test the ports that are under > that specific master... (now I just wish that my University would > let me put diskless booting options in their bootp/dhcp server so I can > boot this one machine diskless :(, guess I'm going to have to use > PicoBSD)... How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens. I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 10:55:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25604 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:55:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from onizuka.tb.9715.org (pDyPvbc6XjPrCUHFvaRFvBSX7XsQfVpy@onizuka.tb.9715.org [194.97.84.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25585 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:55:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from torstenb@onizuka.tb.9715.org) Received: by onizuka.tb.9715.org via sendmail with stdio id for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:55:08 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: From: torstenb@onizuka.tb.9715.org (Torsten Blum) Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <19980304131132.19720@iii.co.uk> from "nik@iii.co.uk" at "Mar 4, 98 01:11:32 pm" To: nik@iii.co.uk Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:55:08 +0100 (CET) Cc: jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG nik@iii.co.uk wrote: > > 2 projects. Both of them important to FreeBSD. > > Project A is slick, sexy, and will attract lots of attention. > > Project B isn't as attractive, but still needs doing. > > You, the donor (who (probably) has only a small understanding of the > FreeBSD internals) really wants project A to happen. [...] That's a good example. Just take a look at "commercial" software (even Operating Systems). Project A = nice cool feature Project B = change of internals that are not (direcly) visible to the user, but are necessary to fix "bugs" etc. There are many people who want "project A" to happen for many reasons (nice cool features etc), but since they don't understand the internals they completly ignore "project B". They all want "A" and the (commercial) software developers are forced (by their management for example) to do Project A instead of Project B, even if B is more important (from the technical point of view). This happens all the time, and the result is Software with lots of new features and only a few (if any) bugfixes. Many people who "voted" for Project A then start complaining about buggy software etc. Guys, that's the reason why many of us use FreeBSD instead of other operating systems. Another point that has been mentioned: many of us have a good paid job and we do this as a hobby because it's fun and because we're not forced to do something that is (from the technical standpoint) less important... -tb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 11:19:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01587 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:19:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01567 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06269; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:12:36 +0100 (CET) cc: Kevin Day , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:33:43 +0100." <6135.889036423@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:12:35 +0100 Message-ID: <6267.889038755@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <6135.889036423@critter.freebsd.dk>, Poul-Henning Kamp writes: >In message <199803041708.LAA03872@home.dragondata.com>, Kevin Day writes: > >>Seriously, most of the bugs can be reproduced by having /usr/src over NFS, >>and doing the following: >> >>cp /dev/zero /usr/src/blah & >>make buildworld -j4 > >I just did this on a laptop that happens to be here on a visit. >only special thing here is that the laptop runs soft-updates... > >ALT-F2 > mount phk:/usr/src /usr/src > cd /usr/src ; make world >ALT-F1 > cd /usr/src ; dd if=/dev/zero bs=32k of=foo > >and it hangs solid :-( > >I'll ponder the packet trace for a moment and see if I can >figure something out. The laptop is stoned and I can't get >it into DDB :-( I hate this kind of problem, I ran over the packet trace, which btw was made on the NFS server. At end of the crash the client (the laptop) has five outstanding write requests which hasn't been answered or retransmitted, one of which is the very first one. Interestingly, the client issues a "commit" on the request it still has outstanding about 1.4 second after it was sent, and the commit is acked... Now, running with "nfsiod -n 8" I can't seem to provoke the hang, but dd will die saying that it wrote 641433600 bytes, (3132 x 200k), but the file on my disk is only 5128192 bytes (25*200k) Man I wish I had time to look into this problem :-( But it seems that raising the number of nfsiods may be a workaround and lowering it will probably make the problem even worse. No panics though... -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 11:24:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02376 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:24:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02285 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07284 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:23:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:23:54 -0500 (EST) From: Snob Art Genre To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Torsten Blum wrote: > There are many people who want "project A" to happen for many reasons > (nice cool features etc), but since they don't understand the internals > they completly ignore "project B". > > This happens all the time, and the result is Software with lots of new > features and only a few (if any) bugfixes. Many people who "voted" for > Project A then start complaining about buggy software etc. > > Guys, that's the reason why many of us use FreeBSD instead of other > operating systems. Hear, hear! I suspect this is the reason that FreeBSD outperforms every commercial OS I've ever tried on x86 hardware. Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:06:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11849 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:06:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA11843 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 9609 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 20:13:01 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803041800.LAA06957@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:13:01 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Warner Losh Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? Cc: "John S.Dyson" , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Brian Handy Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Warner Losh wrote: > In message Simon Shapiro > writes: >: > mechanism. For shooting people that make really ill considered >: > changes to the tree. >: >: This is one firearm brand I do not recognize. Cheap for a 357... > > Well, there is a minor problem with that make. It will sometimes > explode in your hand... Saturday Night Special? These were federally and unconstitiutiojnally outlawed in 1972 or so :-) >: > for $500.00 you can get your own jkh motocycle faring, complete with >: > biking leathers, sport helment (complete with chuckie decal :-) and >: > three gallons of bad attitude. >: >: The last item seems to be free in these circles... > > Yes. But does it come in its own 1 gallon cans, with a picture of JKH > on it? Sure, you can get free refills at any time, but the cans alone > are priceless. Any shrine to jkh would be doublely enhanced by these > icons. Good idea. Now those (any) with good attitude, can have bad attitude. >: I retire. Warner has brought this list of ideas to the point of >: perfection. Now we need to scrap it and start over, just like we do to >: good, working pieces of the kernel... > >:-). And you should have seen the ones that I was too sheepish to > post.... No, wait, this is sounding like Terry's unreleased tree of > mythic yore.... > > And for $5000 you too can be abducted by space aliens using FreeBSD to > power their ship. See interesting places, have interesting medical > proceedures done, witness untold beauty, and unspeakable horrors. Be > the topic of your very own X-Files episode (with 1/2 of the royalties > going to the FreeBSD project, of course). Finally understand the > mysteries that are src/sys/*/nfs*.c. Learn the mysteries of crop > circles andWe guarantee that you won't be abducted by anyone whose CEO > testifies before congress, or space ships run by their software.... I have nothing to say here. I am speechless. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:49:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23669 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:49:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from prepaid.atlas.com (atlas-224.atlas.com [206.29.170.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23649; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:49:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com) Received: from coyote.prepaid.atlas.com(really [10.16.7.71]) by prepaid.atlas.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:45:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1998-Jan-29) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:44:56 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Beattie X-Sender: Brian_Beattie@coyote.prepaid.atlas.com To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: John Kelly , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be > > deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by > > the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do > > that. > > This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have > a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate > funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now? > I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort directly. One thing that concerns me is the following: UNIX version 6 had in some sense three offspring, Research Edition 8 (which never really made it out of the labs), BSD 4.4 and System V. If one considers the funding model of the last two, do we really want large amounts of corporate money? Brian Beattie Atlas PrePaid Services Brian_Beattie@atlas.com 503.228.1400x4355 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:57:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24730 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24711; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:57:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06847; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:52:31 +0100 (CET) To: Brian Beattie cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Kelly , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:44:56 PST." Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:52:31 +0100 Message-ID: <6845.889044751@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >One thing that concerns me is the following: > >UNIX version 6 had in some sense three offspring, Research Edition 8 >(which never really made it out of the labs), BSD 4.4 and System V. If >one considers the funding model of the last two, do we really want large >amounts of corporate money? No, I don't think we do, but it would be really nice if we could get a handful of the best hackers we have liberated from the utter waste of time which occupies too much of their lives. And before anybody starts the crack jokes on this one: I'm not talking about wifes and kids here! And yes, I'm fully aware of the old saying "Beware what you ask for, you may end up getting it!" -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:58:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24909 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:58:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jeeves.egr.msu.edu (jeeves.egr.msu.edu [35.9.37.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24904 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:58:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mcdougall@ameritech.net) Received: from ameritech.net by jeeves.egr.msu.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA10136; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:58:03 -0500 Message-ID: <34FDC05B.AC5A3DAA@ameritech.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:58:03 -0500 From: Adam Ryan Mcdougall X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: trafshow broken on curent? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have encountered this on several 3.0-current systems. # make all >> Checksum OK for trafshow-2.0.tgz. ===> Extracting for trafshow-2.0 ===> Patching for trafshow-2.0 ===> Applying FreeBSD patches for trafshow-2.0 ===> Configuring for trafshow-2.0 ===> Building for trafshow-2.0 cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c addrtoname.c cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf.c cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_dump.c cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_filter.c cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_image.c cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c etherent.c cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c gencode.c cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c inet.c cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c interfaces.c In file included from interfaces.c:26: /usr/include/net/if_slvar.h:69: field `sc_comp' has incomplete type *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 12:59:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25301 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:59:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from homer.supersex.com (homer.supersex.com [209.5.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25251 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:59:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leo@homer.supersex.com) Received: (from leo@localhost) by homer.supersex.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA25015; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:59:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19980304155947.50916@homer.supersex.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:59:47 -0500 From: Leo Papandreou To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> <34fec28f.98429829@mail.cetlink.net> <34FCF201.B9B5DB16@acm.org> <34fd483f.682772@mail.cetlink.net> <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e In-Reply-To: <19980304124149.57634@iii.co.uk>; from nik@iii.co.uk on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:41:49PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:41:49PM +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote: > > Letting the voters decide what gets funded is also a stunningly bad idea. "Turning PCs into Quake Stations." > > N > -- > Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache > Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need > Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? Fragging? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 13:12:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28025 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:12:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28008; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:12:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02487; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:11:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803042111.QAA02487@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <5532.889026676@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Mar 4, 98 04:51:16 pm" To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:11:55 -0500 (EST) Cc: karl@mcs.net, jak@cetlink.net, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp said: > > >I understand that Jordan and the rest of the core team have their own > >priorities. They sometimes don't mesh with mine. Ok, good and well. I > >work around what I can, patch around what I can't work around, and remain > >a few rev levels back if necessary in certain areas. That level of choice > >is one of the nicities of a free operating system environment with source > >code in a CVS tree. > > > >But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able > >to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way. > > Karl, > > You're clearly into the category here, where you should consider paying > somebody to fix the problems which plague your machines. Remember that > many of us do not posses the needed setups to reproduce the problems > reported in the NFS area. > Also, it is a matter of time allocation. For example, my employer gets first-dibs on my time, and their problems get fixed with all of my attention. Project wide-goals get lower priority, not because I don't want to do/fix them, but I just don't have time. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 13:13:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28143 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:13:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from home.dragondata.com (toasty@home.dragondata.com [204.137.237.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28137 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:13:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toasty@home.dragondata.com) Received: (from toasty@localhost) by home.dragondata.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA29425; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:11:36 -0600 (CST) From: Kevin Day Message-Id: <199803042111.PAA29425@home.dragondata.com> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <6267.889038755@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Mar 4, 98 08:12:35 pm" To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:11:36 -0600 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >I just did this on a laptop that happens to be here on a visit. > >only special thing here is that the laptop runs soft-updates... > > > >ALT-F2 > > mount phk:/usr/src /usr/src > > cd /usr/src ; make world > >ALT-F1 > > cd /usr/src ; dd if=/dev/zero bs=32k of=foo > > > >and it hangs solid :-( > > > >I'll ponder the packet trace for a moment and see if I can > >figure something out. The laptop is stoned and I can't get > >it into DDB :-( > > I hate this kind of problem, I ran over the packet trace, > which btw was made on the NFS server. > > At end of the crash the client (the laptop) has five outstanding > write requests which hasn't been answered or retransmitted, one > of which is the very first one. > > Interestingly, the client issues a "commit" on the request it > still has outstanding about 1.4 second after it was sent, and > the commit is acked... > > Now, running with "nfsiod -n 8" I can't seem to provoke the > hang, but dd will die saying that it wrote 641433600 bytes, > (3132 x 200k), but the file on my disk is only 5128192 bytes > (25*200k) > > Man I wish I had time to look into this problem :-( > > But it seems that raising the number of nfsiods may be a > workaround and lowering it will probably make the problem > even worse. > > No panics though... > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member > phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." > "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" > I actually got better stability with no nfsiods. :) But, having like 16 running seems to help. (although nothing other than the first one ever gets over 0:00 run time) I usually get a panic message, "nfsbioread", "bwrite: bufffer is not busy???", or just a lockup. For me, cp /var/crash/vmcore.0 /home/toasty/crash (with /home being mounted) will usually cause a total lockup or instant reboot. (This is over 100 base T), If I force it to go through 10 base T, it will usually behave more. :) In any case, I've made no progress figuring it out myself. :) Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 13:17:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29027 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:17:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28986 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:16:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02509; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:16:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803042116.QAA02509@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <199803041708.LAA03872@home.dragondata.com> from Kevin Day at "Mar 4, 98 11:08:51 am" To: toasty@home.dragondata.com (Kevin Day) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:16:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kevin Day said: > > Karl, > > > > You're clearly into the category here, where you should consider paying > > somebody to fix the problems which plague your machines. Remember that > > many of us do not posses the needed setups to reproduce the problems > > reported in the NFS area. > > > > Poul-Henning > > On a side note: I believe that Karl and I are one of the few ISP-like > environments trying to run -current with NFS. I've got no problem with > anyone who is trusted here to come on and test NFS related patches, or > experiment a bit on my server. > > Seriously, most of the bugs can be reproduced by having /usr/src over NFS, > and doing the following: > > cp /dev/zero /usr/src/blah & > make buildworld -j4 > > That will usually cause a different panic every time, within 2 minutes. :) > I have a much simpler test that will cause a panic within about 10seconds. That is one of my highest priorities now, and I am still trying to trace down the very subtile problem. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 13:29:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00903 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:29:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peedub.muc.de (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00883 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:29:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garyj@peedub.muc.de) Received: from peedub.muc.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.muc.de (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA13983 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:30:16 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199803042130.WAA13983@peedub.muc.de> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: gdb dying in -current From: Gary Jennejohn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:30:16 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I forget who had a problem with gdb core dumping under -current (but the program he was trying to debug is called pot). Anyway, here's a diff that allows me to run gdb on that binary. Check it out and provide feedback, whoever you were :-) [beware - cut&paste !!!] --- /contrib/gdb/gdb/partial-stab.h.ctm Wed Mar 4 22:16:31 1998 +++ /contrib/gdb/gdb/partial-stab.h Wed Mar 4 22:18:22 1998 @@ -568,10 +568,10 @@ the bounds created by N_SO symbols. If that's the case use the address of this function as the low bound for the partial symbol table. */ - if (pst->textlow == 0 + if (pst && (pst->textlow == 0 || (CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE < pst->textlow && CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE - != ANOFFSET (section_offsets, SECT_OFF_TEXT))) + != ANOFFSET (section_offsets, SECT_OFF_TEXT)))) pst->textlow = CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE; #endif /* DBXREAD_ONLY */ add_psymbol_to_list (namestring, p - namestring, @@ -607,10 +607,10 @@ the bounds created by N_SO symbols. If that's the case use the address of this function as the low bound for the partial symbol table. */ - if (pst->textlow == 0 + if (pst && (pst->textlow == 0 || (CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE < pst->textlow && CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE - != ANOFFSET (section_offsets, SECT_OFF_TEXT))) + != ANOFFSET (section_offsets, SECT_OFF_TEXT)))) pst->textlow = CUR_SYMBOL_VALUE; #endif /* DBXREAD_ONLY */ add_psymbol_to_list (namestring, p - namestring, -------- Gary Jennejohn Home - garyj@muc.de Work - garyj@fkr.dec.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:31:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20118 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:31:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20052; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:31:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03788; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:30:34 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:07:29 GMT." <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:30:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3784.889054234@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone > else will. Sigh. Last round: An arbitrary and contraining system of votes does not constitute a meaningful donor incentive. It might give the donor warm fuzzy feelings, but it's not meaningful in any real sense of the word and for an explanation as to why, please see my earlier posting on this topic. Besides, you've already had a number of people tell you that they think this is a bad idea and yet you persist in trying to ram it down our throats. That is not logical behavior. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:40:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21525 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:40:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21512 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:40:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA15051; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:39:56 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Chuck Robey Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:41:54 GMT Message-ID: <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA21513 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:06:51 -0500 (EST), Chuck Robey wrote: >If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks, >why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because >you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so? > It started as a hobby but now my interest is primarily for business use. If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do. And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like. I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising developers will step in to fill that demand. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:41:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22132 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:41:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22118; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:41:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03866; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:40:39 -0800 (PST) To: Karl Denninger cc: John Kelly , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:37:21 CST." <19980304083721.56007@mcs.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:40:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3862.889054839@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The issue is that there are certain things that we really *NEED* fixed, and > to stay as priorities in remaining fixed as time goes on (things that used > to work, and are now broken for example - specifically, NFS issues for one, > and behavior under troublesome SCSI conditions [ie: returns of a defective > block from the controller] for another). I'm running kernels and OSs And as I've already noted, if you have a *specific* thing that needs fixing then by all means, find some willing contractors and fund the work independantly. We'll be more than happy to take a look at whatever they come up with and, if it's not a total hack, incorporate it (and note that even if we'd developed a solution internally, it *still* wouldn't make it in if it turned out to be a total hack and so nothing is changed by you doing it vs us doing it). If all this controversy about voting and being coopted by commercial interests and such has shown me one thing with crystal clarity, it's that we honestly DON'T WANT funding from certain segments of the user population. As I've already stated, even large chunks of cash with thick strings attached are not really wanted since you've only palmed off the responsibility for finding personnel and filling out their W2 forms on me and I don't want that - I'd much rather YOU (the figurative you, not necessarily Karl) fill out the W2 forms and deal with the headaches of managing the employee(s) in question. I have enough headaches as it is and the more administrative work you pile on me or anyone else in the core team, the less time I have for doing the kinds of FreeBSD work I want to do and will keep me in this project. Different headaches with much larger $$$ figures attached to them I can have already by simply chucking all this and going back into the commercial software industry. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:45:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22902 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:45:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22881 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA15590; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:45:06 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Kyle Mestery Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:47:04 GMT Message-ID: <34fee706.41340509@mail.cetlink.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA22886 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:17 -0600 (CST), Kyle Mestery wrote: >Besides, arguing this point anymore appears to be mute, as Jordan has >already expressed his views. Why, is Jordan the king of FreeBSD? >Also, I dont recall voting for any core team members (elected officials). I was speaking to the fact that the disposition, use, and development of freed software cannot be controlled exclusively by an individual or group, not even by the core team. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:47:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23318 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23274 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA16759; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:46:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA13147; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:46:26 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:46:26 -0700 Message-Id: <199803042346.QAA13147@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Cc: Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net> References: <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks, > >why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because > >you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so? > > > > It started as a hobby but now my interest is primarily for business > use. Great, go hire a FreeBSD developer full-time, and you'll get the best of both worlds. > If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow > into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do. History disagrees with you. > And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and > call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like. You mean like 'BSDi'? Me-thinks such an organization already exists, and isn't doing so well IMHO. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:49:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24172 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:49:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA24118 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:49:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA16031; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:49:12 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Nate Williams Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:51:10 GMT Message-ID: <34ffe875.41707848@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl> <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> <199803041823.LAA10052@mt.sri.com> In-Reply-To: <199803041823.LAA10052@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA24151 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:36 -0700, Nate Williams wrote: >So, you don't get 'control', you get to state what you like and hope >that the developers choose to impliment it. If they do, great. If they >don't, great too, but you may choose not to give more money in the >future because they didn't do what you wanted them to do. I understand your reasoning, but it's not enough incentive to make me part with my money. Clearly many have agreed with your viewpoint, but I also think there are many others who will agree with mine. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:54:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25260 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:54:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25238 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:53:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22893; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:51:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803042351.PAA22893@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:41:54 GMT." <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:51:28 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:06:51 -0500 (EST), Chuck Robey > wrote: > > >If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks, > >why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because > >you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so? > > > > It started as a hobby but now my interest is primarily for business > use. Great! This is how a lot of serious organisations first come to meet FreeBSD, and it's a testament to the product that it covers both sides of the coin as well as it does. > If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow > into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do. > And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and > call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like. Sure, that's what the BSD spirit is all about. In fact, this has happened already. It's called BSD/OS though, not BigBucksBSD. > I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising > developers will step in to fill that demand. I expect that your perspective will broaden with time. Right now, all we are asking you to do is to look and listen for a while. The people that are steering the FreeBSD project all have extensive project development experience; I would hesitate to broadly criticise their style without a lot more information than you can possibly posess. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 15:55:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25620 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:55:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25575 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:55:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA16690; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:55:02 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Brian Beattie Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:57:00 GMT Message-ID: <3500e925.41883882@mail.cetlink.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA25589 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:44:56 -0800 (PST), Brian Beattie wrote: >I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money >and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort >directly. That causes fragmentation and duplication of efforts. Collective unity is better. >UNIX version 6 had in some sense three offspring, Research Edition 8 >(which never really made it out of the labs), BSD 4.4 and System V. If >one considers the funding model of the last two, do we really want large >amounts of corporate money? As long as the software remains "freed" it cannot be corrupted by any amount of money. Anyone unhappy with the changes can always split to form their own movement, maintaining collective unity within their own interest group. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:00:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26728 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:00:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26718 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:00:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17331; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:00:39 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:02:37 GMT Message-ID: <3501ea66.42205029@mail.cetlink.net> References: <6845.889044751@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <6845.889044751@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA26719 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:52:31 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>do we really want large amounts of corporate money? >No, I don't think we do, but it would be really nice if we could get >a handful of the best hackers we have liberated from the utter waste >of time which occupies too much of their lives. Whether the money is small or large, I don't see why anyone should be unwilling to work at the direction of those funding the effort. They do it at their current employment, why not for the paying donors of FreeBSD? -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:02:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27210 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA27201 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA30974; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:21 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:21 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: John Kelly Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34fee706.41340509@mail.cetlink.net> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>Besides, arguing this point anymore appears to be mute, as Jordan has >>already expressed his views. > >Why, is Jordan the king of FreeBSD? Because he's the guy running the VISA card machine? >>Also, I dont recall voting for any core team members (elected officials). > >I was speaking to the fact that the disposition, use, and development >of freed software cannot be controlled exclusively by an individual or >group, not even by the core team. While this isn't always the case, I don't see many people in violent disagreement with him. (And...I have seen this. Let's all go relive the Tcl wars, shall we. :-) The whole point of this 'donation' thing (or so I thought) was some avenue to give back to the project. I've done most of my thesis work from a FreeBSD platform, so I fired off a check, and if Jordan wants to spend that on pizza for the core team, hey, that's great. If I *absolutely* needed NFS fixed, I'd pony up more than I just did and probably fire it off to whoever the NFS guy is. (My apologies to you, NFS guy. I've forgotten who you are. :-) But this childish crap about "I'm only donating if you do XXX with my money" is dumb. Do you think Sally Struthers cares what you want her to do with your monthly donation? I don't think so! Brian "I'm out of the house now, but still a mite cagey" Handy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:02:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27335 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27296 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au) Received: from exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au (exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.94]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26230; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:29:15 +1030 (CST) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au ([131.185.2.5]) by exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id G2GZQ1ZJ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:29:34 +0930 Received: from eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au (eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.111]) by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA30371; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:30:08 +1030 (CST) Received: from dsto.defence.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03818; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:30:07 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <34FDEB05.9CA1F531@dsto.defence.gov.au> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:30:05 +1030 From: Matthew Thyer Organization: Defence Science Technology Organisation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yeh, that's pretty annoying. Though its not occurring as much currently as it was a few weeks ago. There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ? or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that. Simon Shapiro wrote: > > How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am > too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens. > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood. > > Simon > -- Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249 Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537 Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Salisbury PO Box 1500 Salisbury South Australia 5108 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:08:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28939 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:08:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28821 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA16962; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:07:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA13519; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:07:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:07:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199803050007.RAA13519@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Cc: Brian Beattie , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3500e925.41883882@mail.cetlink.net> References: <3500e925.41883882@mail.cetlink.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money > >and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort > >directly. > > That causes fragmentation and duplication of efforts. Collective > unity is better. Back that up with facts, or even explanations, please? I see no such fragmentation or duplication of effort that commercial entities would cause that's any different than what happens currently with mostly volunteer projects. People have (and will continue) the ability and desire to do *anything* they want, including doing the same project that someone else is doing. Commercial and/or volunteer, that's not going to change. Your straw-man argument has no merit. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:11:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00275 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:11:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00267 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA18431; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:11:25 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Mike Smith Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:13:23 GMT Message-ID: <3502ed57.42957721@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803042351.PAA22893@dingo.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <199803042351.PAA22893@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA00271 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:51:28 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >Sure, that's what the BSD spirit is all about. In fact, this has >happened already. It's called BSD/OS though, not BigBucksBSD. I know about them too. >> I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising >> developers will step in to fill that demand. > >I expect that your perspective will broaden with time. Right now, all >we are asking you to do is to look and listen for a while. I plan to. There's nowhere else to go, at least not now. >The people that are steering the FreeBSD project all have extensive >project development experience; I would hesitate to broadly criticise >their style without a lot more information than you can possibly posess. Good advice. I'll try to remember it. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:14:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00835 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:14:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00830 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22972; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:11:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050011.QAA22972@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:02:37 GMT." <3501ea66.42205029@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:11:25 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:52:31 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp > wrote: > > >>do we really want large amounts of corporate money? > > >No, I don't think we do, but it would be really nice if we could get > >a handful of the best hackers we have liberated from the utter waste > >of time which occupies too much of their lives. > > Whether the money is small or large, I don't see why anyone should be > unwilling to work at the direction of those funding the effort. They > do it at their current employment, why not for the paying donors of > FreeBSD? None at all. But if the "paying donors" are balkanised into $250 paying shares, there isn't going to be any "direction". If, as a paying donor, you want control of the use of your money, I recommend approaching one or more of the available FreeBSD-literate consultants. Many of them will work on FreeBSD for competitive if not downright discount amounts. Your $250 would, for example, buy an evening of my time, during which I would conscientiously work on whatever you asked for. I'm pretty cheap, but have fairly low availability. If this isn't enough, then you need to find, on your own bat, other donors that share your motivation. There's nothing stopping you doing this, and in fact it would be encouraged. What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have either ignored or simply failed to understand it. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:15:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01126 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:15:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01058 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:15:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA16920; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:03:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA13397; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:03:15 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:03:15 -0700 Message-Id: <199803050003.RAA13397@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Cc: Nate Williams , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34ffe875.41707848@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803041414.PAA11493@bowtie.nl> <35036342.7599203@mail.cetlink.net> <199803041823.LAA10052@mt.sri.com> <34ffe875.41707848@mail.cetlink.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >So, you don't get 'control', you get to state what you like and hope > >that the developers choose to impliment it. If they do, great. If they > >don't, great too, but you may choose not to give more money in the > >future because they didn't do what you wanted them to do. > > I understand your reasoning, but it's not enough incentive to make me > part with my money. Clearly many have agreed with your viewpoint, but > I also think there are many others who will agree with mine. No-one who'd accept your money does it appears, so it's kind of a moot point. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:18:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01926 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:18:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01894 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:18:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22992; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:13:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050013.QAA22992@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Matthew Thyer cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:30:05 +1030." <34FDEB05.9CA1F531@dsto.defence.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:13:52 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ? > or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that. Yeah, before the message was actually printed. Let's take all those annoying warning messages out of the kernel, so that you can't tell what is going wrong. It works for Microsoft, after all. > Simon Shapiro wrote: > > > > How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am > > too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens. You could try reading the manpage, just for starters. > > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood. Na und? They're sufficiently well understood for unrecoverable error conditions to be detected and reported. What more do you want? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:22:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02831 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02825 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:22:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA19696; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:22:28 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Brian Handy Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:24:26 GMT Message-ID: <3503ee97.43278373@mail.cetlink.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA02827 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:21 -0800 (PST), Brian Handy wrote: >But this childish crap about "I'm only donating if you do XXX with >my money" is dumb. No, that's an ultimatum and I never proposed that. I proposed that I have a vote. My vote would be collected with all the other votes and the collective vote would determine the funded projects. If my project does survive the vote, I accept that as part of the voting process, without asking for my money back. My point is that work funded from a large budget should be determined by the donors, not Jordan or other members of the core team. That's the purpose of a vote. If Jordan and other members of the core team don't like that model, I expect to see other movements which do. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:28:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04007 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:28:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04002 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:28:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20415; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:28:27 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Nate Williams Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:30:25 GMT Message-ID: <3504f132.43945382@mail.cetlink.net> References: <3500e925.41883882@mail.cetlink.net> <199803050007.RAA13519@mt.sri.com> In-Reply-To: <199803050007.RAA13519@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA04003 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:07:45 -0700, Nate Williams wrote: >> >I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money >> >and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort >> >directly. >> >> That causes fragmentation and duplication of efforts. Collective >> unity is better. > >Back that up with facts, or even explanations, please? If you have 50 contractors all working and paid independently, with little or no knowledge of what the others are doing, duplication and wasted effort is inevitable. On the other hand, a funded FreeBSD could be a clearinghouse for better organization. >People have (and will continue) the ability and desire to do *anything* >they want, including doing the same project that someone else is doing. >Commercial and/or volunteer, that's not going to change. > >Your straw-man argument has no merit. Sorry, can't agree with you there. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:30:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04493 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:30:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA04483 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA11217; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:30:05 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:30:05 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: John Kelly Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3503ee97.43278373@mail.cetlink.net> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>But this childish crap about "I'm only donating if you do XXX with >>my money" is dumb. > >No, that's an ultimatum and I never proposed that. I proposed that I >have a vote. I think your proposal was a bit stronger than that. >My vote would be collected with all the other votes and >the collective vote would determine the funded projects. If my >project does survive the vote, I accept that as part of the voting >process, without asking for my money back. This isn't what I remember hearing at all. It's starting to sound vaguely like the vote-tokens of yesteryear, which drowned in nearly the same level of fury. >My point is that work funded from a large budget should be determined >by the donors, not Jordan or other members of the core team. That's >the purpose of a vote. If Jordan and other members of the core team >don't like that model, I expect to see other movements which do. Jordan doesn't like the model. From what I can tell, nobody in -core likes the model. Nate doesn't like it, neither do I. Mike Smith proposed a much better model; mail him your check and he'll give you as much time as he can. Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:31:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04883 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA04742 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:30:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 14964 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 00:37:15 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050013.QAA22992@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:37:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: >> There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ? >> or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that. > > Yeah, before the message was actually printed. Let's take all those > annoying warning messages out of the kernel, so that you can't tell > what is going wrong. It works for Microsoft, after all. If the ``problem'' is harmless. then do not print it. Make the printing optional? ... > You could try reading the manpage, just for starters. Do you think I did not? I did and I do not agree with what it says. >> > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood. > > Na und? They're sufficiently well understood for unrecoverable > error conditions to be detected and reported. What more do you want? Perfection :-) The world, as a whole knows how to never overflow a UART for quite some time. There are transmission errors, of course. These either get thrown out, or passed up to the error resilient layer. Thisis particularly valid view in the case of TCP/IP over PPP, which has at least two places in which to handle the error. I do not see an Ethernet card report error per collision. This is easy for me to say and agravating for you to read, as I am being jugmental over something I had zero contribution for and almost as much investigation. The context of the comment was work on the sio.c driver. If it is your opinion that the driver is optimal, and these errors are unavoidable, I'll accept this opinion and assume that my impression, as expressed above, is erroneous. Really. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:34:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05730 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:34:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05668 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:33:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA17194; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA13876; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199803050033.RAA13876@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Cc: Nate Williams , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3504f132.43945382@mail.cetlink.net> References: <3500e925.41883882@mail.cetlink.net> <199803050007.RAA13519@mt.sri.com> <3504f132.43945382@mail.cetlink.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> >I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money > >> >and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort > >> >directly. > >> > >> That causes fragmentation and duplication of efforts. Collective > >> unity is better. > > > >Back that up with facts, or even explanations, please? > > If you have 50 contractors all working and paid independently, with > little or no knowledge of what the others are doing, duplication and > wasted effort is inevitable. On the other hand, a funded FreeBSD > could be a clearinghouse for better organization. And if these folks are working on FreeBSD, thus affecting one another and the rest of the project, why are they all of a sudden working in a vacuum when they get paid with commercial funs more so than when they work for free? Again, the argument has no merit. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:34:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05752 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:34:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05727 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:34:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA04310; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:32:46 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:41:54 GMT." <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:32:45 -0800 Message-ID: <4306.889057965@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising > developers will step in to fill that demand. Excellent. Why not go for it and show us that you're capable of putting your efforts where your mouth is? Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:36:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06636 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:36:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06629 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:36:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21319; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:36:10 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Mike Smith Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:38:07 GMT Message-ID: <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803050011.QAA22972@dingo.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <199803050011.QAA22972@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA06631 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:11:25 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers >are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and >organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been >said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have >either ignored or simply failed to understand it. You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small. I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the coders for what they do best. Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will begin to see the light. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:41:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07348 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:41:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07338; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:41:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21951; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:41:50 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:43:48 GMT Message-ID: <3506f518.44943369@mail.cetlink.net> References: <4306.889057965@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <4306.889057965@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA07343 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:32:45 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >> I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising >> developers will step in to fill that demand. > >Excellent. Why not go for it and show us that you're capable of >putting your efforts where your mouth is? Good reply. But if I don't do it, someone else will. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:46:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07896 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:46:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07891 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:46:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA04404; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:44:37 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Mike Smith , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:38:07 GMT." <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:44:37 -0800 Message-ID: <4400.889058677@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which > may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which > can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the > coders for what they do best. Yes, and as someone has already very succintly pointed out, we don't like your model and we reject it. You're now free to go form another BSD project since we're all evidently heathens who cannot and will not be enlightened by the wisdom of John Kelly and I'd HOPE that would be the end of it but you continue to sound off on this topic as if you could somehow get your point across by repetition and volume, not unlike one of those foolish american tourists who reacts to non-speakers of english by raising his voice and speaking more slowly. Enough! If you're really not just here to treat us all to the sound of your own voice, regardless of the futility of the argument, then kindly prove it by giving this tired topic a rest already - yeesh! Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:50:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08447 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:50:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08437; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:50:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA22929; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:50:01 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:51:59 GMT Message-ID: <3507f6df.45398917@mail.cetlink.net> References: <4400.889058677@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <4400.889058677@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA08439 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:44:37 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >Yes, and as someone has already very succintly pointed out, we don't >like your model and we reject it. You're now free to go form another >BSD project since we're all evidently heathens who cannot and will not >be enlightened by the wisdom of John Kelly and I'd HOPE that would be >the end of it If the thread dies, I won't resurrect it. Fair enough? -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:50:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08474 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:50:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08459 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:50:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23134; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:47:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050047.QAA23134@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:37:15 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:46:57 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: > > >> There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ? > >> or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that. > > > > Yeah, before the message was actually printed. Let's take all those > > annoying warning messages out of the kernel, so that you can't tell > > what is going wrong. It works for Microsoft, after all. > > If the ``problem'' is harmless. then do not print it. Make the printing > optional? - Harmless problems don't generally warrant (or have) messages. - The problem that results in this message is not harmless. - The printing is entirely optional. You have the source. > > You could try reading the manpage, just for starters. > > Do you think I did not? I did and I do not agree with what it says. Uh, you said that you don't know what the message means. The manpage tells you. If you read the manpage you can't claim to not know what the message means. If you are in a position to disagree at all, it can only be because you believe you know more than the manpage author. > >> > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood. > > > > Na und? They're sufficiently well understood for unrecoverable > > error conditions to be detected and reported. What more do you want? > > Perfection :-) The world, as a whole knows how to never overflow a UART > for quite some time. It does? I wish someone had told me, or any of the countless thousands of people that have spent millions of programmer hours working with what we obviously mistakenly thought were the fundamentals of asynchronous serial communications. > There are transmission errors, of course. These > either get thrown out, or passed up to the error resilient layer. This is > particularly valid view in the case of TCP/IP over PPP, which has at least > two places in which to handle the error. ... neither of which provide a mechanism for in-band signalling of dropouts. You can argue the merits of this, but you're attempting to misdirect the topic. I do not see an Ethernet card > report error per collision. This is not a valid comparison; a collision is a recoverable ("harmless") error. You *will* see ethernet drivers (not cards) reporting unrecoverable errors, which is what a FIFO overrun is. > This is easy for me to say and agravating for you to read, as I am being > jugmental over something I had zero contribution for and almost as much > investigation. It certainly does wonders for your reputation. > If it is your opinion that the driver is optimal, and these errors are > unavoidable, I'll accept this opinion and assume that my impression, as > expressed above, is erroneous. Really. The sio driver is about as good as they get; you are welcome to talk to Bruce Evans (bde@freebsd.org), the principal maintainer of same, and David Nugent (davidn@freebsd.org), the author of the BNU FOSSIL driver, if you want some extremely well-respected opinions on the quality of said code. Meanwhile, I would suggest that you look at "silo overflow" messages in their correct light, which is as indicative of a serious interrupt response problem on your system. You may find it informative to modify the spl* routines to keep track of time spent with various interrupt types masked in order to identify the sorts of activity which lead to these problems. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 16:54:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09455 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09450 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:54:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23162; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:50:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050050.QAA23162@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Mike Smith , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:38:07 GMT." <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:50:21 -0800 From: Mike Smith Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA09451 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:11:25 -0800, Mike Smith > wrote: > > >What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers > >are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and > >organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been > >said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have > >either ignored or simply failed to understand it. > > You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small. No, I get it just fine. You're talking about a ridiculously hypothetical model while we are trying to do something useful. > Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will > begin to see the light. If I am to think in that order of magnitude, I will make some decidedly uncharitable suggestions about what you can do with your $250 donation. However, slipping back to the real world, your $250 would allow us to obtain any of a number of very useful items to aid developers in supporting real hardware. Or you could save us an hour of shopping time and, having identified a problem item, donate it. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:01:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10437 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:01:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10432 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:00:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id MAA19812; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:03:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803050103.MAA19812@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 00:38:07 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:03:28 +1100 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Kelly wrote: > You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small. > > I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which > may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which > can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the > coders for what they do best. > > Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will > begin to see the light. Now think in terms of the human resources and infrastructure required to manage such cash flow. With FreeBSD currently a volunteer project, the management responsibilities are assigned to core members and possibly delegated by them, at their discretion. When you start "thinking big", the first thing you do is to break the current management model. You asked why Jordan is "king" of FreeBSD. My perspective is: he's earned that (implied) title. I attribute a lot of the success of FreeBSD to those individuals who have earnt our respect by contributing. I don't want to see any change that might affect their involvement. Expecting them to manage a funded organisation is unreasonable. And expecting them to stand back while others step in to manage FreeBSD, that's unreasonable too, IMO. I like the concept where companies like WC, NCI and Whistle pay FreeBSD developers to work on what suits them. They take the management load, and we benefit, without any real cost. Many of us (particularly me 8-) would jump at the chance to work in this way. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:14:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11789 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:14:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from IAEhv.nl (root@iaehv.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11775; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wjw@surf.IAEhv.nl) Received: from surf.IAEhv.nl (root@surf.IAEhv.nl [194.151.66.2]) by IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA18754; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:14:02 +0100 (CET) Received: (from wjw@localhost) by surf.IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA19120; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:14:02 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:14:02 +0100 (MET) From: Willem Jan Withagen Message-Id: <199803050114.CAA19120@surf.IAEhv.nl> To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd.current In-Reply-To: <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> Organization: Internet Access Eindhoven, the Netherlands Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <12740.888967601@time.cdrom.com> you write: > >Anything else while we're on the topic? :) Paper "bill" so I can keep our accoutants happy. This will be required by just about everybody who's boss is going to pay/donate. --WjW -- Internet Access Eindhoven BV., voice: +31-40-2 393 393, data: +31-40-2 439 436 P.O. 928, 5600 AX Eindhoven, The Netherlands Full Internet connectivity for only fl 12.95 a month. Call now, and login as 'new'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:18:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12393 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:18:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA12380 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 15602 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 01:24:39 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050047.QAA23134@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:24:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: ... Lots of good things... ... I am totally out of line, sio.c is a wonderful thing, I wans totally wrong and apologize for anything critical I said. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:23:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13714 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:23:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13674; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:23:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA04796; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:22:32 -0800 (PST) To: Willem Jan Withagen cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:14:02 +0100." <199803050114.CAA19120@surf.IAEhv.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:22:32 -0800 Message-ID: <4792.889060952@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Paper "bill" so I can keep our accoutants happy. > This will be required by just about everybody who's boss is going to > pay/donate. I think I can manage that. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:34:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17224 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (root@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17165 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:34:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu) Received: from win95.local.sunyit.edu (A-T34.rh.sunyit.edu [150.156.210.241]) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA04323; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:35:43 GMT Message-ID: <015f01bd47d6$36a1f8c0$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu> From: "Alfred Perlstein" To: "Adam Ryan Mcdougall" , Subject: Re: trafshow broken on curent? Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:29:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG i had the same problem, it's not 3.0 causeing the problem, it's trafshow... edit interfaces.c and remove the line: #include it is not needed... -Alfred could someone fix the port? -----Original Message----- From: Adam Ryan Mcdougall To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 12:05 PM Subject: trafshow broken on curent? >I have encountered this on several 3.0-current systems. > ># make all >>> Checksum OK for trafshow-2.0.tgz. >===> Extracting for trafshow-2.0 >===> Patching for trafshow-2.0 >===> Applying FreeBSD patches for trafshow-2.0 >===> Configuring for trafshow-2.0 >===> Building for trafshow-2.0 >cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c addrtoname.c >cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf.c >cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_dump.c >cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_filter.c >cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c bpf_image.c >cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c etherent.c >cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c gencode.c >cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c inet.c >cc -O2 -I../include -DETHER_SERVICE -c interfaces.c >In file included from interfaces.c:26: >/usr/include/net/if_slvar.h:69: field `sc_comp' has incomplete type >*** Error code 1 > >Stop. >*** Error code 1 > >Stop. >*** Error code 1 > >Stop. >*** Error code 1 > >Stop. >*** Error code 1 > >Stop. ># > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:36:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17657 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:36:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from prepaid.atlas.com (atlas-250.atlas.com [206.29.170.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17530; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com) Received: from coyote.prepaid.atlas.com(really [10.16.7.71]) by prepaid.atlas.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:34:49 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1998-Jan-29) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:34:40 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Beattie X-Sender: Brian_Beattie@coyote.prepaid.atlas.com To: John Kelly cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3506f518.44943369@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:32:45 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" > wrote: > > >> I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising > >> developers will step in to fill that demand. > > > >Excellent. Why not go for it and show us that you're capable of > >putting your efforts where your mouth is? > > Good reply. But if I don't do it, someone else will. > Then they will. Should the FreeBSD core change to stop or help this? Or should the FreeBSD team continue to set its own goals. Brian Beattie Atlas PrePaid Services Brian_Beattie@atlas.com 503.228.1400x4355 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:37:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18028 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:37:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from prepaid.atlas.com (atlas-250.atlas.com [206.29.170.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17981 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com) Received: from coyote.prepaid.atlas.com(really [10.16.7.71]) by prepaid.atlas.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:32:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1998-Jan-29) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:32:09 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Beattie X-Sender: Brian_Beattie@coyote.prepaid.atlas.com To: John Kelly cc: Mike Smith , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:11:25 -0800, Mike Smith > wrote: > > >What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers > >are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and > >organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been > >said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have > >either ignored or simply failed to understand it. > > You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small. > > I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which > may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which > can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the > coders for what they do best. > > Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will > begin to see the light. > I think the answer you are getting from the core team and some of us others is, that you are free to take your $10M and form a consortium to develop any features you wish based on FreeBSD. You may also give these changes back to the FreeBSD team would will gladly incorporate any changes that fit with their goals. You can also create your own $BSD and sell it under any sort of license you wish. Brian Beattie Atlas PrePaid Services Brian_Beattie@atlas.com 503.228.1400x4355 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 17:45:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20345 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:45:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA20231; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:44:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (5.65/AndrewR-930902) id AA20951; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:13:56 +1030 Received: by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA27121; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:15:31 +1030 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:15:31 +1030 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Willem Jan Withagen , jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Enough already! (Was Re: Donations.) In-Reply-To: <4792.889060952@time.cdrom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: Can this thread please be moved off of -current to -chat or somewhere more appropriate? The past several hundred messages have had little to do with FreeBSD-current :-) Cheers, Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:08:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24559 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:08:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24544 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au) Received: from exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au (exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.94]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03051; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:36:37 +1030 (CST) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au ([131.185.2.5]) by exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id G2GZQH4F; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:36:54 +0930 Received: from eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au (eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.111]) by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30106; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:37:28 +1030 (CST) Received: from dsto.defence.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03943; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:37:23 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <34FE08D7.159A2AD@dsto.defence.gov.au> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:37:19 +1030 From: Matthew Thyer Organization: Defence Science Technology Organisation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith CC: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: <199803050047.QAA23134@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike, You're being a bit too agressive with Simon here. Lets get this thread back on track. Simon is seeing an error message, so am I. I think many people are also seeing it. Now the frequency of this message has changed a lot since the 2.1R days which would seem to indicate that something can be done about the processing of interrupts to reduce the occurrance of FIFO overflows. This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100. Also this problem occurs on many machines Pentium 166, Pentium 100 etc. It does not only occur on 486SX25's or other such low end machines. (I have a Pentium 166 and a V.FC modem). Now is it really a problem ? 100 overflows in two hours probably wont make much difference to throughput so maybe the error message should be suppressed but that would hide possible future deterioration of interrupt handling. I cant do anything about it as I dont have the skills or time. But maybe it should be seriously discussed. Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: > > > > >> There was a time when it didn't happen at all...hmmm was that 2.1R ? > > >> or maybe 2.2-CURRENT sometime after that. > > > > > > Yeah, before the message was actually printed. Let's take all those > > > annoying warning messages out of the kernel, so that you can't tell > > > what is going wrong. It works for Microsoft, after all. > > > > If the ``problem'' is harmless. then do not print it. Make the printing > > optional? > > - Harmless problems don't generally warrant (or have) messages. > - The problem that results in this message is not harmless. > - The printing is entirely optional. You have the source. > > > > You could try reading the manpage, just for starters. > > > > Do you think I did not? I did and I do not agree with what it says. > > Uh, you said that you don't know what the message means. The manpage > tells you. If you read the manpage you can't claim to not know what > the message means. If you are in a position to disagree at all, it can > only be because you believe you know more than the manpage author. > > > >> > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood. > > > > > > Na und? They're sufficiently well understood for unrecoverable > > > error conditions to be detected and reported. What more do you want? > > > > Perfection :-) The world, as a whole knows how to never overflow a UART > > for quite some time. > > It does? I wish someone had told me, or any of the countless thousands > of people that have spent millions of programmer hours working with > what we obviously mistakenly thought were the fundamentals of > asynchronous serial communications. > > > There are transmission errors, of course. These > > either get thrown out, or passed up to the error resilient layer. This is > > particularly valid view in the case of TCP/IP over PPP, which has at least > > two places in which to handle the error. > > ... neither of which provide a mechanism for in-band signalling of > dropouts. You can argue the merits of this, but you're attempting to > misdirect the topic. > > I do not see an Ethernet card > > report error per collision. > > This is not a valid comparison; a collision is a recoverable > ("harmless") error. You *will* see ethernet drivers (not cards) > reporting unrecoverable errors, which is what a FIFO overrun is. > > > This is easy for me to say and agravating for you to read, as I am being > > jugmental over something I had zero contribution for and almost as much > > investigation. > > It certainly does wonders for your reputation. > > > If it is your opinion that the driver is optimal, and these errors are > > unavoidable, I'll accept this opinion and assume that my impression, as > > expressed above, is erroneous. Really. > > The sio driver is about as good as they get; you are welcome to talk to > Bruce Evans (bde@freebsd.org), the principal maintainer of same, and > David Nugent (davidn@freebsd.org), the author of the BNU FOSSIL driver, > if you want some extremely well-respected opinions on the quality of > said code. > > Meanwhile, I would suggest that you look at "silo overflow" messages in > their correct light, which is as indicative of a serious interrupt > response problem on your system. > > You may find it informative to modify the spl* routines to keep track > of time spent with various interrupt types masked in order to identify > the sorts of activity which lead to these problems. > > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message -- Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249 Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537 Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Salisbury PO Box 1500 Salisbury South Australia 5108 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:10:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24869 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:10:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (adm@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24838 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:10:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mestery@mail.winternet.com) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27899; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:10:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma027787; Wed, 4 Mar 98 20:09:45 -0600 Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA22444; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:09:44 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: tundra.winternet.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:09:44 -0600 (CST) From: Kyle Mestery To: John Kelly cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34ffe875.41707848@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:36 -0700, Nate Williams > wrote: > > >So, you don't get 'control', you get to state what you like and hope > >that the developers choose to impliment it. If they do, great. If they > >don't, great too, but you may choose not to give more money in the > >future because they didn't do what you wanted them to do. > > I understand your reasoning, but it's not enough incentive to make me > part with my money. Clearly many have agreed with your viewpoint, but > I also think there are many others who will agree with mine. > Apparently not. I have seen only two emails up to this point that merely defend something similar to your viewpoint. As Jordan has stated, if you want something done, and you have the funding, then go ahead and find developers to code what you want done. Continuing to push this issue in this forum is obviously getting you nowhere. -- Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Network Systems Group "Keep honking, I'm reloading." "Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:18:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26871 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:18:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26852; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:18:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29514; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:18:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd029440; Wed Mar 4 19:18:25 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA02300; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:18:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803050218.TAA02300@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Donations.u To: Brian_Beattie@Atlas.com (Brian Beattie) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:18:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brian Beattie" at Mar 4, 98 12:44:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I would agree, and in any case, an entity with a large chunck of money > and a specific feature in mind would be better off funding the effort > directly. The concern I would have if I were a company that funded some work outside the management of FreeBSD proper would be whether or not, when completed, the work would be committed back to the mainline FreeBSD, such that it would appear and be maintained in subsequent releases. If there were a way to fund this under the management of FreeBSD proper, it would go a long way toward alleviating this concern. Example: XYZ Corporation funds SMP work to the point of getting fine grain parallelism operating with little or no UP impact. But in doing this, makes a number of architectural changes that could either have been done another way, or which have NULL value to any UP systems, one way or the other. The core team decides that SMP support is not important enough to swallow the bitter architectural changes along with the sweet SMP. Where does this leave the company who funded the work? At best, they have an ongoing maintenance nightmare; at worst, FreeBSD incorporates conflicting and divergent changes, which render any advancement by FreeBSD inaccessible to the company. I think this is why there is such a push in the postings for FreeBSD proper to manage funded projects. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:21:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27436 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:21:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from conductor.synapse.net (conductor.synapse.net [199.84.54.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA27431 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:21:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from evanc@synapse.net) Received: (qmail 19311 invoked from network); 5 Mar 1998 02:21:21 -0000 Received: from cpu1970.adsl.bellglobal.com (HELO cello) (206.47.37.201) by conductor.synapse.net with SMTP; 5 Mar 1998 02:21:21 -0000 Message-ID: <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net> From: "Evan Champion" To: "Matthew Thyer" , "Mike Smith" Cc: , Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:21:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using >ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100. I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode... Evan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:31:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29711 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:31:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29704 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:31:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michaelh@cet.co.jp) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.8/CET-v2.2) with SMTP id CAA20857 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:30:49 GMT Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:30:49 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SoftUpdates! Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I want to see Kirk McKusick's softupdates go into the tree soon. This is a very significant step in the development of FreeBSD. We will get higher performance ffs without integrity compromises. http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/papers/CSE-TR-254-95/ I think these changes in themselves warrant a 3.0 jump. Giant lock or subsystem coarse lock SMP and softupdates is probably a good target. When softupdates are are applied and have stabilized a bit, I'll submit the first set of VFS_VRELE patches for vop_create, vop_mknod, and vop_symlink. This is mostly just grunt work but is a fundamental first step in making the stacking layers work. It will clean up ugly hacks like WILLRELE and make some things a lot easier to get working for file systems like devfs. It will also prevent VT_TFS-like hacks that third parties must sometime resort to forcing on us because we didn't have a proper VFS interface to allow them to manage their own vnodes. Mike Hancock To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:52:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03448 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:52:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA03403 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:52:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 17351 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 02:58:44 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:58:44 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Evan Champion Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith , Matthew Thyer Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Evan Champion wrote: >>This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using >>ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100. > > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) > I > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user > mode... Assume you are doing something like FTP of packages-current. You are reading about 16 kilobytes per second, which is just about 1,142 interrupts per second (assuming a 16 myte FIFO and 14 byte treshold. Every 1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second. Add 10% ACK on the FTP connection, HZ heartbeat, and you have 1,400 interrupts per second. Say 2,000 interrupts/Sec. A P6-200 will be safe in this regard. In a RT O/S this will give us about 500us per interrupt. What do you think? ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 18:53:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03731 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:53:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03703 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:53:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23631; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:48:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050248.SAA23631@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Evan Champion" cc: "Matthew Thyer" , "Mike Smith" , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:21:37 EST." <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:48:36 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using > >ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100. > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode... Uh, the driver works just fine. However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_ disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware fails to deliver them in the first place. If you have a solution to this really quite challenging problem, I'm sure we'd all be delighted to hear about it. Until then, please believe me that there is nothing wrong with the driver, per se., which "causes" these overflows. Just incidentally, the P6 has relatively poor I/O performance, particularly when it comes to talking to ISA peripherals. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:01:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06719 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:01:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06691 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:00:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23678; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:56:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050256.SAA23678@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Matthew Thyer cc: Mike Smith , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:37:19 +1030." <34FE08D7.159A2AD@dsto.defence.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:56:20 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Simon is seeing an error message, so am I. I think many people > are also seeing it. No kidding. I've been seeing it for years. It wouldn't be in the code if it was an impossibility. > Now the frequency of this message has changed a lot since the 2.1R > days which would seem to indicate that something can be done > about the processing of interrupts to reduce the occurrance of > FIFO overflows. Quite possibly, yes. Changes were actually made to *improve* the interrupt handling performance of the driver. Check the CVS logs for references to "fast interrupts", and the use of the RI_FAST flag. But without any testing or hard numbers, your claim above is meaningless. You haven't given any context, or demonstrated with similar machines and loads side-by-side that there has been any quantifiable change in system behaviour. Perhaps its your usage profile that's changed? > Also this problem occurs on many machines Pentium 166, Pentium 100 > etc. It does not only occur on 486SX25's or other such low end > machines. (I have a Pentium 166 and a V.FC modem). All this tells us is that the problem is not related to marginal CPU speed, but we knew this already. > But maybe it should be seriously discussed. It has been. We know about it. But nobody that cares enough about it has taken the time to analyse the problem. I tried to suggest, in my response to Simon, how one might go about doing this, in the (apparently vain) hope that someone might take me up on it. Shall we say that slagging the 'sio' driver certainly isn't the best way to start? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:10:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07809 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:10:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07802 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:10:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmaddox@scsn.net) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.104]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA105; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:06:19 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id WAA00902; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:10:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root) Message-ID: <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:10:12 -0500 From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox) To: Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , Mike Smith Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mail-Followup-To: Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , Mike Smith , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net>; from Evan Champion on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 09:21:37PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 09:21:37PM -0500, Evan Champion wrote: > >This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using > >ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100. > > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode... > I had this same problem, and the following fix from John Dyson works for me: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Try the modifications noted in the included info. I no longer get any kind of sio messages. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. Index: sio.c =================================================================== RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v retrieving revision 1.194 diff -r1.194 sio.c 117a118 > /* 119a121,123 > */ > #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2) > #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4) Add this to your system conf: options "MSIZE=256" options "TTYHOG=4096" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:17:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08766 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:17:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.scitec.com.au (firewall-user@fgate.scitec.com.au [203.17.180.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08754 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john.saunders@scitec.com.au) Received: by firewall.scitec.com.au; id NAA25849; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:16:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from mailhub.scitec.com.au(203.17.180.131) by fgate.scitec.com.au via smap (3.2) id xma025845; Thu, 5 Mar 98 13:16:51 +1000 Received: from hydra.scitec.com.au (hydra.scitec.com.au [203.17.182.101]) by mailhub.scitec.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA11492; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:16:45 +1000 Received: from scitec.com.au (saruman.scitec.com.au) by hydra.scitec.com.au with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA139837804; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:16:44 +1100 Message-Id: <34FE191D.1D676AC3@scitec.com.au> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:16:45 +1100 From: John Saunders Organization: SCITEC LIMITED X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro wrote: > [snip] Every 1KB, you write to disk [snip] If you use an IDE disk then 10 to 1 that's the problem. Particularly if the IDE driver is doing multi-sector transfers. Interrupts must be disabled during IDE PIO transfers (or you can risk data corruption) and the time taken to transfer, say 16 sectors, is significant. When Linux supported Intel Triton busmaster IDE the occurance of FIFO overflows disappeared on Triton boards. For example I can run 6 16550 ports under Linux using busmaster support without any FIFO overflows. However I have trouble running 2 at 57600 bps without FIFO overflows. The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of the PC architeture. Cheers. -- +------------------------------------------------------------+ . | John Saunders mailto:John.Saunders@scitec.com.au (Work) | ,--_|\ | mailto:john@nlc.net.au (Home) | / Oz \ | http://www.nlc.net.au/~john/ | \_,--\_/ | SCITEC LIMITED Phone +61 2 9428 9563 Fax +61 2 9428 9933 | v | "By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends." | +------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:26:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09597 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:26:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (d182-89.uoregon.edu [128.223.182.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09588 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:26:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10895; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:26:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980304192622.24302@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:26:22 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: dmaddox@scsn.net Cc: Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , Mike Smith , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net> <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net>; from Donald J. Maddox on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:10:12PM -0500 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald J. Maddox scribbled this message on Mar 4: > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 09:21:37PM -0500, Evan Champion wrote: > > >This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using > > >ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100. > > > > > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and > > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I > > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of > > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a > > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode... > > > > I had this same problem, and the following fix from John Dyson works > for me: [patch deleted] are you sure that it wasn't to remeove: sio%d: interrupt-level buffer overflow. messages? if this did remove the: sio%d: silo overflow. messages, then there is something wierd up with sio... I'll take a look at the code, but none of my machines have reliably produced this message that wasn't traced to another problem (my bt946 scsi controler would keep interrupts disabled longer than two chars to be recieved at 115200, forcing the trigger level down to 8chars instead of 14chars fixed it for me)... -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:27:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09761 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09740 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:27:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23786; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:23:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050323.TAA23786@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Evan Champion , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith , Matthew Thyer Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:58:44 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:23:52 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and > > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) > > I > > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of > > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a > > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user > > mode... > > Assume you are doing something like FTP of packages-current. > You are reading about 16 kilobytes per second, which is just about 1,142 > interrupts per second (assuming a 16 myte FIFO and 14 byte treshold. Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650 datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between when the interrupt is generated and "too late". Because of the way the sio driver handles interrupts, you want to look for code sections bracketed with disable_intr/enable_intr calls to find possible culprits. > Every > 1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second. There's no guarantee of this; particularly not if I/O clustering, async or soft updates are enabled. Filesystems are mounted async during an install. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:33:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10782 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:33:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10759 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:32:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmaddox@scsn.net) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.104]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA117; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:29:28 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id WAA01035; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:33:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root) Message-ID: <19980304223320.22976@scsn.net> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:33:20 -0500 From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox) To: John-Mark Gurney , dmaddox@scsn.net Cc: Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , Mike Smith , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mail-Followup-To: John-Mark Gurney , dmaddox@scsn.net, Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , Mike Smith , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <053601bd47dd$6cedf300$c9252fce@cello.synapse.net> <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> <19980304192622.24302@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980304192622.24302@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>; from John-Mark Gurney on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:26:22PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:26:22PM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > Donald J. Maddox scribbled this message on Mar 4: > > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 09:21:37PM -0500, Evan Champion wrote: > > > >This happens a lot as after several hours (2 or 3) of using > > > >ijppp and XFree86 the count of FIFO overflows can be around 100. > > > > > > > > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and > > > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) I > > > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of > > > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a > > > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user mode... > > > > > > > I had this same problem, and the following fix from John Dyson works > > for me: > > [patch deleted] > > are you sure that it wasn't to remeove: > sio%d: interrupt-level buffer overflow. > messages? Sorry, you are correct... I was getting interrupt-level buffer overflows, not silo overflows. Mea culpa :-/ > > if this did remove the: > sio%d: silo overflow. > messages, then there is something wierd up with sio... I'll take a look > at the code, but none of my machines have reliably produced this message > that wasn't traced to another problem (my bt946 scsi controler would keep > interrupts disabled longer than two chars to be recieved at 115200, > forcing the trigger level down to 8chars instead of 14chars fixed it for > me)... > > -- > John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 > Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405 > > Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD > Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:34:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11141 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:34:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10995 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:34:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 18116 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 03:40:24 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050248.SAA23631@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:40:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: Matthew Thyer , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Evan Champion Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: ... > Uh, the driver works just fine. Good! > However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_ > disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware > fails to deliver them in the first place. Unless I misunderstand something, the driver should get interrupts delivered, unless another part of the kernel is in spltty(), or another spl which masks spltty. There should not be all that many of those, and they should be considered carefully. Now, if something in the kernel disables interrupts althogether for any amount of time, he should get the pointy hat everyone like to talk about so much, as this will make FreeBSD into a glorified Linux. > If you have a solution to this really quite challenging problem, I'm > sure we'd all be delighted to hear about it. Until then, please > believe me that there is nothing wrong with the driver, per se., which > "causes" these overflows. Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a mode by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain point of saturation? This will stop the modem from transmitting characters within one character time period. Any modem which will not do that is very broken. This i have done suvvessfully on a Z-80, using a Z80-SIO USART ( a cusin of the 8250 if i remember right). There are other, ugly hacks to be done to guarantee delivery but they are not worth it. > > Just incidentally, the P6 has relatively poor I/O performance, > particularly when it comes to talking to ISA peripherals. Yes, but faster than an 8080A + 8250. Agree? Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:36:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11826 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:36:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11815 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:36:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23822; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:32:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050332.TAA23822@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: dmaddox@scsn.net cc: Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , Mike Smith , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:10:12 EST." <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:32:25 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Try the modifications noted in the included info. I > no longer get any kind of sio messages. > > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > > > Index: sio.c > =================================================================== > RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v > retrieving revision 1.194 > diff -r1.194 sio.c > 117a118 > > /* > 119a121,123 > > */ > > #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2) > > #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4) > > > Add this to your system conf: > > options "MSIZE=256" Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred? > options "TTYHOG=4096" This increases tty-internal buffers, but wouldn't be expected to affect interrupt latency. (There may be some carryover though.) - Were you seeing "silo overflow" messages? - Have the above changes affected your actual throughput? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:41:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12890 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:41:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12874 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:41:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23878; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:38:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050338.TAA23878@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: John Saunders cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:16:45 +1100." <34FE191D.1D676AC3@scitec.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:37:59 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Simon Shapiro wrote: > > [snip] Every 1KB, you write to disk [snip] > > If you use an IDE disk then 10 to 1 that's the problem. Particularly > if the IDE driver is doing multi-sector transfers. Interrupts must be > disabled during IDE PIO transfers (or you can risk data corruption) > and the time taken to transfer, say 16 sectors, is significant. When > Linux supported Intel Triton busmaster IDE the occurance of FIFO > overflows disappeared on Triton boards. For what it's worth, interrupts don't actually appear to be disabled for PIO IDE transfers. (Feel free to check the source, FWIW.) I don't believe that interrupts for the serial ports are blocked by the wdintr() handler; they use "fast" handlers which are immune to blocking by the normal spl() mechanism. > The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support > busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of > the PC architeture. This last hits the nail square on the head. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:42:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13246 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:42:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13201 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:42:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id NAA17751; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:50:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma017739; Thu, 5 Mar 98 13:50:19 +1000 Received: from troll.dtir.qld.gov.au (troll.dtir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.1]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09859; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:41:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (syssgm@localhost) by troll.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA08541; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:41:45 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199803050341.NAA08541@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: troll.dtir.qld.gov.au: syssgm@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Simon Shapiro cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:41:44 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro wrote: > > How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am > too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens. > I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood. Do you have a Matrox Millennium? I borrowed a Matrox Millennium II for a while and put it in my Pentium 133 box. Suddenly I got silo overflows when there was simultaneous incoming serial data and X activity (like scrolling a 60 line xterm window). When I returned the Millennium and put my Trio64V+ card back in, all serial problems disappeared. At the time, I was running the serial port at only 38400, but now run it at 115200 with no problems. I didn't do enough investigation to even guess at the cause. I looked in the XFree86 server code for interrupt disabling but found nothing interesting. I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there? Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:45:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13712 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13672 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:45:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmaddox@scsn.net) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.104]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA167; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:41:49 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id WAA01218; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:45:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root) Message-ID: <19980304224540.64292@scsn.net> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:45:40 -0500 From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox) To: Mike Smith , dmaddox@scsn.net Cc: Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mail-Followup-To: Mike Smith , dmaddox@scsn.net, Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> <199803050332.TAA23822@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803050332.TAA23822@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:32:25PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:32:25PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Add this to your system conf: > > > > options "MSIZE=256" > > Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change > for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred? > > > options "TTYHOG=4096" > > This increases tty-internal buffers, but wouldn't be expected to affect > interrupt latency. (There may be some carryover though.) > > - Were you seeing "silo overflow" messages? > - Have the above changes affected your actual throughput? Sorry, I didn't read the original message closely enough... I was actually getting interrupt-level buffer oflows, not silo oflows. This fix is for a different problem :-/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:46:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13966 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:46:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13896 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:46:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00465; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:43:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803050343.WAA00465@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> from "Donald J. Maddox" at "Mar 4, 98 10:10:12 pm" To: dmaddox@scsn.net Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:43:37 -0500 (EST) Cc: evanc@synapse.net, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, mike@smith.net.au, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't think that the MSIZE option is really needed. If we can get approval from BDE, or if he would "correct" the suggestion, the I'll commit it for him. Donald J. Maddox said: > > I had this same problem, and the following fix from John Dyson works > for me: > > Index: sio.c > =================================================================== > RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v > retrieving revision 1.194 > diff -r1.194 sio.c > 117a118 > > /* > 119a121,123 > > */ > > #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2) > > #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4) > > > Add this to your system conf: > > options "MSIZE=256" > options "TTYHOG=4096" > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:47:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14111 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:47:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14098 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:46:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00470; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:44:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803050344.WAA00470@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: <199803050332.TAA23822@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Mar 4, 98 07:32:25 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:44:40 -0500 (EST) Cc: dmaddox@scsn.net, evanc@synapse.net, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, mike@smith.net.au, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith said: > > Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change > for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred? > The MSIZE isn't needed. > > > options "TTYHOG=4096" > > This increases tty-internal buffers, but wouldn't be expected to affect > interrupt latency. (There may be some carryover though.) > > - Were you seeing "silo overflow" messages? > - Have the above changes affected your actual throughput? > Note that i also changed the thresholds in the sio.c file. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:49:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14681 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:49:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (d182-89.uoregon.edu [128.223.182.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14632 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:49:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10954; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:48:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980304194810.22210@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:48:10 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Mike Smith Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Evan Champion , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: <199803050323.TAA23786@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199803050323.TAA23786@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:23:52PM -0800 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith scribbled this message on Mar 4: > > > > > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and > > > during a full install of FreeBSD over 128kbps ISDN (230.4kbps port speed) > > > I > > > would get around 700 FIFO overflows. Someone would have to do a lot of > > > convincing to get me to believe the driver is working properly when a > > > machine like that can't handle a 128kbps datastream in single user > > > mode... > > > > Assume you are doing something like FTP of packages-current. > > You are reading about 16 kilobytes per second, which is just about 1,142 > > interrupts per second (assuming a 16 myte FIFO and 14 byte treshold. > > Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt > latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650 > datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are > doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between > when the interrupt is generated and "too late". actually, the default for the 16550 is set to 14 characters.. and as there is a 16 character buffer, that means only 2 characters... you might want to take a look at pr#2239... it has a patch to change the default trigger level from 14 down to 8... though the patch is slightly out of date (made to rev 1.154 of sio.c), it should be obvious what is needed... > Because of the way the sio driver handles interrupts, you want to look > for code sections bracketed with disable_intr/enable_intr calls to find > possible culprits. that's another good thing to look for... hmm... another modificate to the spl/disable_intr/enable_intr would be to keep track of the last few functions that did disable interrupts and then when sio discovers an overflow, to output those... > > Every > > 1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second. > > There's no guarantee of this; particularly not if I/O clustering, async > or soft updates are enabled. Filesystems are mounted async during an > install. yep... -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:53:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15918 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:53:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15874 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:53:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23945; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:48:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050348.TAA23945@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Mike Smith , Matthew Thyer , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Evan Champion Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:40:24 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:48:11 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_ > > disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware > > fails to deliver them in the first place. > > Unless I misunderstand something, the driver should get interrupts > delivered, unless another part of the kernel is in spltty(), or another spl > which masks spltty. There should not be all that many of those, and they > should be considered carefully. I *did* suggest that you read the code. I meant it. The sio(4) driver (and a few others) use what are called "fast interrupt handlers". These are spl-immune, and can only be blocked with disable_intr(). Delivery of these interrupts may also be delayed at the hardware level. > Now, if something in the kernel disables interrupts althogether for any > amount of time, he should get the pointy hat everyone like to talk about so > much, as this will make FreeBSD into a glorified Linux. I did ask if someone would perhaps investigate this. > > If you have a solution to this really quite challenging problem, I'm > > sure we'd all be delighted to hear about it. Until then, please > > believe me that there is nothing wrong with the driver, per se., which > > "causes" these overflows. > > Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a mode > by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain point > of saturation? No, it doesn't, although some of the extended versions do. Lowering DSR won't help much, because it's an input. Automatic RTS/CTS flow control is only useful when you are talking to another UART that implements a comparable scheme. Many serial devices will only respond to changes in flow control signals at the start of an output block, ie. there is no guaranteed response to a change in RTS state. > This will stop the modem from transmitting characters > within one character time period. Any modem which will not do that is very > broken. This i have done suvvessfully on a Z-80, using a Z80-SIO USART ( a > cusin of the 8250 if i remember right). The ZSIO is completely unrelated to the 8250. It has more in common with the 2681/68681 family and the 8530 SCC. Unfortunately, you cannot expect a peripheral to respond in this fashion. Automatic handshaking can also significantly reduce throughput unless very carefully managed. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:57:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17149 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:57:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17135 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:57:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05622; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:38:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050338.TAA05622@implode.root.com> To: Mike Smith cc: dmaddox@scsn.net, Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:32:25 PST." <199803050332.TAA23822@dingo.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:38:30 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Add this to your system conf: >> >> options "MSIZE=256" > >Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change >for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred? You don't want to do that. Without other changes, our networking code behaves poorly when MSIZE is not 128. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 19:57:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17159 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:57:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17144 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:57:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23983 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:55:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050355.TAA23983@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:48:10 PST." <19980304194810.22210@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:55:17 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Mike Smith scribbled this message on Mar 4: > > > > > > > > I have a Pentium Pro 200 with 16650's (and the 16650's are detected) and ... > > Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt > > latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650 > > datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are > > doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between > > when the interrupt is generated and "too late". > > actually, the default for the 16550 is set to 14 characters.. and as > there is a 16 character buffer, that means only 2 characters... Note that the plaintiff was talking about 16650 parts, and an extended bitrate. My naive assumption here is that the 16650 just doubles everything, leading to the same timing issue as with a 16550 at 115200. > you might want to take a look at pr#2239... it has a patch to change > the default trigger level from 14 down to 8... though the patch is > slightly out of date (made to rev 1.154 of sio.c), it should be obvious > what is needed... The problem with this reduction (which has been implemented before) is that it increases the CPU load on systems with large numbers of ports. The FIFO trigger level tuning issue has seen a lot of water under the bridge - the driver used to adjust the level downwards in the presence of overflows, but this was abandoned for reasons best extracted from the CVS logs. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:00:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18449 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:00:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18432 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:00:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA24001; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:57:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050357.TAA24001@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Stephen McKay cc: Simon Shapiro , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:41:44 +1000." <199803050341.NAA08541@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:57:39 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Do you have a Matrox Millennium? I borrowed a Matrox Millennium II for > a while and put it in my Pentium 133 box. Suddenly I got silo overflows > when there was simultaneous incoming serial data and X activity (like > scrolling a 60 line xterm window). When I returned the Millennium and > put my Trio64V+ card back in, all serial problems disappeared. At the time, > I was running the serial port at only 38400, but now run it at 115200 with > no problems. > > I didn't do enough investigation to even guess at the cause. I looked in > the XFree86 server code for interrupt disabling but found nothing interesting. Does the server disable interrupts for extended periods of time? > I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could > starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there? It's quite possible; it would depend on the PCI latency timer settings, but generally the latency provided for there is only of the order of a few microseconds. I would be more interested in knowing whether the X server did interrupt-related things specific to the Matrox driver... -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:01:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18713 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA18614 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:01:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 19012 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 04:07:55 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050256.SAA23678@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:07:55 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: ... > But without any testing or hard numbers, your claim above is > meaningless. You haven't given any context, or demonstrated with > similar machines and loads side-by-side that there has been any > quantifiable change in system behaviour. Perhaps its your usage > profile that's changed? I have to disagre, Mike. It may be hard to reproduce, or practically impossible to track (lost interrupts are nasty. First the are totally asynchronous, and second, they are missing... :-) But, here is a test setup for you that will exhonorate the sio driver; a. Hook two boxes via null modem. b. Boot to single use mode. c. Set the baud rate to 1200 d. Assume /dev/cuaa00 on both sides, with a full null modem e. Generate a barberpole file on the remote machine (go to ftp:simon-shapiro.org/crash/tools, and get blob.c) make blob;install -c -m 755 blob /usr/local/bin; blob > blob.out f. On the remote machine do ``cat < /dev/cuaa00 > output_file'' g. On the local machine do ``cat blob.out > /dev/cua00'' h. ``diff blob.out output_file'' Any difference means the driver is broken. i. bump the baud rate to 115,200 and repeat the domp. j. Repeat the whole thing but in the other direction. k. Go to multi-user mode and repeat steps f-j l. Start loading the system. First with memory traffic; dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=64k is good. m. Upgrade to disk traffic; Replace /dev/zero with /dev/sd0c or something like that. If you want to be nasty to your disk subsystem, pick up st.c from the same place and run it instead of dd. n. Add network traffic. If Mike is correct, this test will pass with flying colors. If it doesm it is time to look elsewhere. I saw quite few spltty's around on things that are not Teletype devices :-) > It has been. We know about it. But nobody that cares enough about it > has taken the time to analyse the problem. I tried to suggest, in my > response to Simon, how one might go about doing this, in the > (apparently vain) hope that someone might take me up on it. You find me an employer that agrees that I work on these things and I give you my word of honor that I will get this, and any other bug you give me fixed. > Shall we say that slagging the 'sio' driver certainly isn't the best way > to start? I have been preached to frequently on this list. Now is my turn; Raising an issue with a piece of code is NOT criticism of the author, nor of the maintainer, nor of the project's qulity of management. It is simply an issue. I think I speak for many on this list when I say that we are at awe at the talent and dedication expressed in this project. It is simply, that when we see something broken, we ask ``Is it broken or is my brain in neutral?'' FreeBSD is growing to be an extreamly complex engineering product. Canvassing it all is impossible, thus old issues re-surface. That's all. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:05:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19836 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (d182-89.uoregon.edu [128.223.182.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA19798 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:04:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11009; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:04:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980304200448.26184@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:04:48 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Mike Smith Cc: John Saunders , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: <34FE191D.1D676AC3@scitec.com.au> <199803050338.TAA23878@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199803050338.TAA23878@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:37:59PM -0800 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith scribbled this message on Mar 4: > > The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support > > busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of > > the PC architeture. > > This last hits the nail square on the head. then can you tell my bt946 not to cause sio overflows?? :) back when I used to run my inet connection (via 28.8k modem) on my main machine using SCSI only, I still got the overflow errors... I finally switched to using a second machine as a router... which really is the only way to go, unless you use a smart serial card like a digiboard which larger buffers... (and now that natd is part of FreeBSD there is no excuse... it's a great use for an old 486 or 386 that you have sitting around)... -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:11:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20615 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:11:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20610 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:11:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24061 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:09:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050409.UAA24061@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:04:48 PST." <19980304200448.26184@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:09:06 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Mike Smith scribbled this message on Mar 4: > > > The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support > > > busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of > > > the PC architeture. > > > > This last hits the nail square on the head. > > then can you tell my bt946 not to cause sio overflows?? :) I wish. 8( You could try hauling the PCI latency timer right down to see whether that affects things. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:16:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21273 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:16:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21265 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bde@godzilla.zeta.org.au) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA32045; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:10:45 +1100 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:10:45 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199803050410.PAA32045@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, john.saunders@scitec.com.au, shimon@simon-shapiro.org Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >If you use an IDE disk then 10 to 1 that's the problem. Particularly Perhaps if you use the busmastering DMA version. All busmastering DMA devices potentially steal too many cycles for PIO drivers to operate properly. >if the IDE driver is doing multi-sector transfers. Interrupts must be >disabled during IDE PIO transfers (or you can risk data corruption) Interrupts aren't disabled during IDE PIO transfers under FreeBSD. >and the time taken to transfer, say 16 sectors, is significant. When >Linux supported Intel Triton busmaster IDE the occurance of FIFO >overflows disappeared on Triton boards. The reverse is the case under FreeBSD. PIO IDE can only delay sio interrupt handling by one bus cycle. DMA can delay not only interrupt handling (which often requires a bus access to access the ICU), but all PIO bus accesses. sio needs to do about 50 bus accesses per port (normal worst case) to handle a 16550 interrupt. If DMA delays bus accesses by as little as 4 usec each, then interrupt latency for a second port will increase from about 60 usec to about 260 usec - too much to work at 115200 bps with the default fifo trigger level. >The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support >busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of >the PC architeture. The IRQ priorities aren't a significant problem under FreeBSD or Linux. Both systems essentially ignore them. FreeBSD rotates the priorities to give IRQ3 highest priority, but this only makes a tiny difference. IRQ3 just gets noticed first if there are concurrent interrupts, and its handler will be preempted within 5 usec if one of the concurrent interrupt has a higher (BSD) priority. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:16:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21434 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:16:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21416 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:16:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24083; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:12:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050412.UAA24083@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:07:55 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:12:49 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Shall we say that slagging the 'sio' driver certainly isn't the best way > > to start? > > I have been preached to frequently on this list. Now is my turn; Raising > an issue with a piece of code is NOT criticism of the author, nor of the > maintainer, nor of the project's qulity of management. It is simply an Uh, the original issue was "the sio driver emits this annoying message that it didn't used to which means it must have been broken". I'm simply trying to point out that a) the issue isn't that simple and b) plenty of people are aware of it. If/when someone finds something that's fixable and causes these symptoms, plenty of us would just love to stomp all over the problem. If I've been too rough in doing that, my apologies. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:17:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21911 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:17:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21903 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:17:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au) Received: from exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au (exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.94]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16971; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:45:50 +1030 (CST) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au ([131.185.2.5]) by exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id G2GZQJT9; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:46:08 +0930 Received: from eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au (eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.111]) by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA32682; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:46:42 +1030 (CST) Received: from dsto.defence.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04058; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:46:42 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <34FE2729.983A12B7@dsto.defence.gov.au> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:46:41 +1030 From: Matthew Thyer Organization: Defence Science Technology Organisation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org CC: Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hear hear. I think that Mike is too defensive sometimes. No-one is attacking you Mike, we are just highlighting a problem to get some discussion going on the issue. I am very happy to see that this thread has created meaningfull discussion with several possible solutions. That's a whole lot better than the thread that this one has grown from! Simon Shapiro wrote: > I have been preached to frequently on this list. Now is my turn; Raising > an issue with a piece of code is NOT criticism of the author, nor of the > maintainer, nor of the project's qulity of management. It is simply an > issue. I think I speak for many on this list when I say that we are at awe > at the talent and dedication expressed in this project. It is simply, that > when we see something broken, we ask ``Is it broken or is my brain in > neutral?'' FreeBSD is growing to be an extreamly complex engineering > product. Canvassing it all is impossible, thus old issues re-surface. > That's all. > > ---------- > > Sincerely Yours, > > Simon Shapiro > Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 -- Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249 Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537 Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Salisbury PO Box 1500 Salisbury South Australia 5108 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:21:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22667 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:21:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22662 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:21:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24126 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:19:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050419.UAA24126@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 15:10:45 +1100." <199803050410.PAA32045@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:19:16 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support > >busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of > >the PC architeture. > > The IRQ priorities aren't a significant problem under FreeBSD or Linux. > Both systems essentially ignore them. Whoops, that's right; we effectively ack the interrupt when we take it, not when we finish. Scratch my previous comment inre this. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:23:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23084 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:23:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (207-172-239-225.s34.as8.rkv.erols.com [207.172.239.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23056 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01681; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:25:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) X-Authentication-Warning: quark.ChrisBowman.com: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:25:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: John Kelly cc: Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: >On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:06:51 -0500 (EST), Chuck Robey > wrote: > >>If the only thing that you can see are wasted opportunities to make bucks, >>why are you involved with a volunteer OS? I personally think it's because >>you *like* messing around with FreeBSD ... isn't that so? >> > >It started as a hobby but now my interest is primarily for business >use. > >If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow >into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do. >And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and >call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like. > >I expect there will be a market demand for this, and some enterprising >developers will step in to fill that demand. I don't mean to be rude here, and I don't want to start a flame fest, but I think some one has already done what you suggest and they call themselves BSDI. --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com My home page To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:24:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23607 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:24:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA23556 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:24:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 19407 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 04:31:21 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980304221012.62373@scsn.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:31:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: (Donald J. Maddox) Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Evan Champion , Matthew Thyer , Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Donald J. Maddox wrote: ... > Try the modifications noted in the included info. I > no longer get any kind of sio messages. This is called ``the rubberband solution'' It may actually work :-) > Index: sio.c > =================================================================== > RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v > retrieving revision 1.194 > diff -r1.194 sio.c > 117a118 >> /* > 119a121,123 >> */ >> #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2) >> #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4) I have in the file: #define LOTS_OF_EVENTS 64 /* helps separate urgent events from in #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG - 2 * RS_IBUFSIZE) #define RS_IBUFSIZE 256 Which way should I go about it? > > > Add this to your system conf: > > options "MSIZE=256" > options "TTYHOG=4096" I did. Thanx! ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:30:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24925 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24913 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:30:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bde@godzilla.zeta.org.au) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00299; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:29:05 +1100 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:29:05 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199803050429.PAA00299@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: evanc@synapse.net, shimon@simon-shapiro.org Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, mike@smith.net.au Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Assume you are doing something like FTP of packages-current. >You are reading about 16 kilobytes per second, which is just about 1,142 >interrupts per second (assuming a 16 myte FIFO and 14 byte treshold. Every >1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second. Add >10% ACK on the FTP connection, HZ heartbeat, and you have 1,400 interrupts >per second. Say 2,000 interrupts/Sec. A P6-200 will be safe in this >regard. In a RT O/S this will give us about 500us per interrupt. What do >you think? I think 2000 interrupts/second is not many. A 486/33 can handle about 50000 sio interrupts/second, as it needs to do to handle just 2 16450 UARTs at 115200 bps bidirectional saturated. Running such a setup plus some other sources of interrupts was my standard test until I junked the 486/33 recently. OTOH, a P6/200 can't handle many more sio interrupts/second, since sio interrupt handling consists mainly of PIO, especially on fast systems, especially for buffered UARTs. The 486/33 was replaced by a K6/233 which has significantly (50%) slower ISA PIO than the 486/33. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:34:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25446 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:34:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA25410 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:34:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 19524 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 04:40:42 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050323.TAA23786@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:40:42 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: Evan Champion , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: ... > Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt > latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650 > datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are > doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between > when the interrupt is generated and "too late". That means that the built-in fifo should go down from 14 to 12 bytes, or probably 10. Does the IOCTL that changes baud rate dividers do that too? > Because of the way the sio driver handles interrupts, you want to look > for code sections bracketed with disable_intr/enable_intr calls to find > possible culprits. If the driver disables interrupts then loses them, is this like shooting yourself in the foot and complain about the pain? :-) >> Every >> 1KB, you write to disk, so now we have 1,160 interrupts per second. > > There's no guarantee of this; particularly not if I/O clustering, async > or soft updates are enabled. Filesystems are mounted async during an > install. Of course. The purpuse of this napkin computation was to see, crudely, if we have congestion, or not. I think we can easily see that we do, and some overrun control is necessary. I simply do not know enough of the internals of FreeBSD to speculate any further. It has to be a ssoluble problem. We have more MIPS, more bandwidth and more control than a modem has. No? ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:38:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26128 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:38:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26073 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id OAA21951; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:46:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma021915; Thu, 5 Mar 98 14:45:38 +1000 Received: from troll.dtir.qld.gov.au (troll.dtir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.1]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10898; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:37:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (syssgm@localhost) by troll.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA09160; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:37:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199803050437.OAA09160@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: troll.dtir.qld.gov.au: syssgm@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Mike Smith cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: <199803050357.TAA24001@dingo.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <199803050357.TAA24001@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:57:39 -0800" Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:37:03 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 4th March 1998, Mike Smith wrote: >> I didn't do enough investigation to even guess at the cause. I looked in >> the XFree86 server code for interrupt disabling but found nothing >> interesting. > >Does the server disable interrupts for extended periods of time? If it does, I couldn't find where. >> I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could >> starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there? > >It's quite possible; it would depend on the PCI latency timer settings, >but generally the latency provided for there is only of the order of a >few microseconds. So, how would I print these latency timer settings from FreeBSD? Would I just get a meaningless jumble of numbers anyway? ;-) >I would be more interested in knowing whether the X >server did interrupt-related things specific to the Matrox driver... This was my first thought. I couldn't find any place that it disabled interrupts. There were routines to fiddle processor interrupts but I could find no code that called them. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:39:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26499 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:39:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA26493 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:39:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 19607 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 04:46:36 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050341.NAA08541@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:46:36 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Stephen McKay wrote: > Simon Shapiro wrote: >> >> How about getting rid of that ``%d more silo overflow..'' message? I am >> too limited in my understanding device drivers to see why that happens. >> I though that UARTs and RS-232C were well understood. > > Do you have a Matrox Millennium? I borrowed a Matrox Millennium II for > a while and put it in my Pentium 133 box. Suddenly I got silo overflows > when there was simultaneous incoming serial data and X activity (like > scrolling a 60 line xterm window). When I returned the Millennium and > put my Trio64V+ card back in, all serial problems disappeared. At the > time, > I was running the serial port at only 38400, but now run it at 115200 > with > no problems. > > I didn't do enough investigation to even guess at the cause. I looked in > the XFree86 server code for interrupt disabling but found nothing > interesting. > > I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could > starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there? Now this is really interesting. There is a Matrox Millenium in the machine but it does no X at the moment. A Matrox will not be happy with a COM4 port. They stomp on each other. So does an ATI Mach64. Yes, a nasty video card will do ugly things to the PCI bus. BTW, most these S3 cards will not work across a PCI-PCi bridge. Never understood why... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:44:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27351 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:44:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27340 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:44:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24219 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:42:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050442.UAA24219@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:37:03 +1000." <199803050437.OAA09160@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:42:21 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> I was wondering though if any PCI experts knew if a PCI video card could > >> starve the PCI-ISA bridge of cycles. Any experts out there? > > > >It's quite possible; it would depend on the PCI latency timer settings, > >but generally the latency provided for there is only of the order of a > >few microseconds. > > So, how would I print these latency timer settings from FreeBSD? Would I > just get a meaningless jumble of numbers anyway? ;-) You should be able to adjust the setting in the system BIOS setup. This is only likely to be an issue if the card does busmaster transfers to/from main memory. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:49:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27908 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA27901 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:49:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 19706 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 04:55:51 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050348.TAA23945@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:55:51 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: Matthew Thyer , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Evan Champion Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: ... > The sio(4) driver (and a few others) use what are called "fast > interrupt handlers". These are spl-immune, and can only be blocked > with disable_intr(). Delivery of these interrupts may also be delayed > at the hardware level. I will not comment on this at all... ... >> Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a >> mode >> by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain >> point >> of saturation? > > No, it doesn't, although some of the extended versions do. Brain-Dead. Then all bets are off. In the current software + hardware structure, interrupts will be lost. > Lowering DSR won't help much, because it's an input. Picky, picky, I mean DTR, and you know it :-) > Automatic RTS/CTS flow control is only useful when you are talking to > another UART that implements a comparable scheme. Many serial devices > will only respond to changes in flow control signals at the start of an > output block, ie. there is no guaranteed response to a change in RTS > state. Modems must and do comply with RTS/CTS. All the ISPs out there that have a flow control with Sportster, raise your hand... A modem that does not is broken. Many modems bastardized this support to acomodate operating systemsd that did too. But there is normally a mode where it will work. ... > The ZSIO is completely unrelated to the 8250. It has more in common > with the 2681/68681 family and the 8530 SCC. sorry. Last I touched one of these has been longerthan I can hold information. > Unfortunately, you cannot expect a peripheral to respond in this > fashion. Automatic handshaking can also significantly reduce throughput > unless very carefully managed. Again, you are convincing me why something that works cannot (or is hard to make) work. I cannot agree to that, as I see modems, telex machines from yore, computers, PCs, all working fine without dropping a single byte due to internal overflow. Since the system is useful to me, in this state, I have no further complaints. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 20:50:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28249 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:50:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28225 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:50:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24238; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:44:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050444.UAA24238@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Mike Smith , Evan Champion , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:40:42 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:44:12 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Interrupt rate is less significant in this issue than interrupt > > latency. At 230kbps you have about 43us/character. Without a 16650 > > datasheet I can't confirm whether the standard FIFO trigger levels are > > doubled or not; if they are, you have 4 bytes or about 170us between > > when the interrupt is generated and "too late". > > That means that the built-in fifo should go down from 14 to 12 bytes, or > probably 10. Does the IOCTL that changes baud rate dividers do that too? No. Actually, I went looking (in vain *^%*&^%*) for the code that plays with the sio FIFOs. I think I'm going blind. 8( > > Because of the way the sio driver handles interrupts, you want to look > > for code sections bracketed with disable_intr/enable_intr calls to find > > possible culprits. > > If the driver disables interrupts then loses them, is this like shooting > yourself in the foot and complain about the pain? :-) In this case, it's someone else shooting the driver in the foot. As Bruce pointed out, busmaster DMA is a concern. > overrun control is necessary. I simply do not know enough of the internals > of FreeBSD to speculate any further. It has to be a ssoluble problem. We > have more MIPS, more bandwidth and more control than a modem has. No? Yes, yes, no and also we have less determinism. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:19:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02293 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:19:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.scitec.com.au (firewall-user@fgate.scitec.com.au [203.17.180.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02238 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john.saunders@scitec.com.au) Received: by firewall.scitec.com.au; id PAA29908; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:18:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from mailhub.scitec.com.au(203.17.180.131) by fgate.scitec.com.au via smap (3.2) id xma029898; Thu, 5 Mar 98 15:18:40 +1000 Received: from hydra.scitec.com.au (hydra.scitec.com.au [203.17.182.101]) by mailhub.scitec.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA12802; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:18:39 +1000 Received: from scitec.com.au (saruman.scitec.com.au) by hydra.scitec.com.au with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA204965117; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:18:38 +1100 Message-Id: <34FE35AE.181C67A7@scitec.com.au> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:18:38 +1100 From: John Saunders Organization: SCITEC LIMITED X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Mike Smith , Matthew Thyer , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Evan Champion Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro wrote: > >> Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a mode > >> by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain point > >> of saturation? > > > > No, it doesn't, although some of the extended versions do. > > Brain-Dead. Then all bets are off. In the current software + hardware > structure, interrupts will be lost. The CD1440 (I think that's the part number) chip in the smart cards like Stallion and Cyclades do do automatic CTS/RTS handshaking with the modem. They also have very large FIFOs. Which means you can run 256 (yes two fifty six) ports at 57600 in a 486 DX4/100 ;-) For those that are interested, 4 Stallion 64 port ISA cards. Cheers. -- +------------------------------------------------------------+ . | John Saunders mailto:John.Saunders@scitec.com.au (Work) | ,--_|\ | mailto:john@nlc.net.au (Home) | / Oz \ | http://www.nlc.net.au/~john/ | \_,--\_/ | SCITEC LIMITED Phone +61 2 9428 9563 Fax +61 2 9428 9933 | v | "By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends." | +------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:20:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02892 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02837 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:20:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA19243; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:20:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA16381; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:20:16 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:20:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199803050520.WAA16381@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: References: <199803050248.SAA23631@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_ > > disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware > > fails to deliver them in the first place. > > Unless I misunderstand something, the driver should get interrupts > delivered, unless another part of the kernel is in spltty(), or another spl > which masks spltty. There should not be all that many of those, and they > should be considered carefully. I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen. Why, I don't know, but it's definitely X related. If I don't use X and the machine gets the same traffic, I get the messages. If I switch from XFree8 to XIG, the messages go away. What is causing the interrupts to go away, I don't know, but it might be syscons or something. I'm not switching vty's, and neither am I hitting the caps-lock or causing the LED's to switch. But, it occurs none-the-less. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:24:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03842 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:24:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA03787 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:24:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20173 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 05:30:48 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <34FE35AE.181C67A7@scitec.com.au> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:30:48 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: John Saunders Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: Evan Champion , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Matthew Thyer , Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 John Saunders wrote: > Simon Shapiro wrote: >> >> Again, don't decapitate me on this one, but does not the 16550 have a >> >> mode >> >> by which it will lower DSR and or CTS when the FIFO reaches a certain >> >> point >> >> of saturation? >> > >> > No, it doesn't, although some of the extended versions do. >> >> Brain-Dead. Then all bets are off. In the current software + hardware >> structure, interrupts will be lost. > > The CD1440 (I think that's the part number) chip in the smart cards > like Stallion and Cyclades do do automatic CTS/RTS handshaking > with the modem. They also have very large FIFOs. Which means you can > run 256 (yes two fifty six) ports at 57600 in a 486 DX4/100 ;-) > For those that are interested, 4 Stallion 64 port ISA cards. I was thinkingthe same thing. I have a Computone here that just sits on the floor collecting lint from the lanudry dryer. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:30:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05420 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:30:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05381 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:30:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA19324; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:30:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA16531; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:30:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:30:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199803050530.WAA16531@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Nate Williams , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: References: <199803050520.WAA16381@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen. ... > > I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip. But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only difference was the Xserver. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:34:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06043 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA06036 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:34:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20269 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 05:34:27 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050520.WAA16381@mt.sri.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:34:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Nate Williams Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Nate Williams wrote: >> > However the driver has no say in the matter when _someone_else_ >> > disables interrupts for a long period of time, or when the hardware >> > fails to deliver them in the first place. >> >> Unless I misunderstand something, the driver should get interrupts >> delivered, unless another part of the kernel is in spltty(), or another >> spl >> which masks spltty. There should not be all that many of those, and >> they >> should be considered carefully. > > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen. Why, I > don't know, but it's definitely X related. If I don't use X and the > machine gets the same traffic, I get the messages. If I switch from > XFree8 to XIG, the messages go away. > > What is causing the interrupts to go away, I don't know, but it might be > syscons or something. I'm not switching vty's, and neither am I hitting > the caps-lock or causing the LED's to switch. > > But, it occurs none-the-less. I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip. The Mach64 I finally pulled out was much worse. It would die/kill serial ports. I think the problem is there and in the FAST_INTR stuff. Now I am going to get myself in trouble all over again :-) Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:52:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08678 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:52:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08609 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:51:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bde@godzilla.zeta.org.au) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04052; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:46:35 +1100 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:46:35 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199803050546.QAA04052@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: dmaddox@scsn.net, mike@smith.net.au Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, evanc@synapse.net, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, shimon@simon-shapiro.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Index: sio.c >> =================================================================== >> RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v >> retrieving revision 1.194 >> diff -r1.194 sio.c >> 117a118 >> > /* >> 119a121,123 >> > */ >> > #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2) >> > #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4) This is internally inconsistent (high water is twice as high as the container), and breaks RTS flow control unless you make corresponding changes in tty.c. >> Add this to your system conf: >> >> options "MSIZE=256" > >Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change >for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred? It's not relevant to serial i/o, anyway. >> options "TTYHOG=4096" > >This increases tty-internal buffers, but wouldn't be expected to affect >interrupt latency. (There may be some carryover though.) > > - Were you seeing "silo overflow" messages? > - Have the above changes affected your actual throughput? Apparently it was "interrupt-level buffer overflow". Changes like the above are certainly required to support speeds above 115200 bps properly, since the driver doesn't support these speeds and various buffers are sized accordingly. First, you have to increase the interrupt-level buffer size. Then you have to increase the tty buffer size so that the tty buffer can hold 2 interrupt-level buffers worth of data without its watermarks going below the container. If you don't increase the interrupt-level buffer size, then bad things start happening at speeds below 23040 cps: 1) if RTS flow control is not enabled, then interrupt-level buffer overflows are possible at speeds near 23040 bps. 2) if working RTS flow control is enabled (and works), then the throughput will be reduced by flow control to (RS_IHIGHWATER * hz) cps (default 19200 cps). 3) parts of the above only apply to the termios line discipline. If you use kernel ppp, then 1) and 2) apply but the tty buffer size and watermarks don't appluy. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 21:52:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09069 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:52:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09037 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:52:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id WAA27961; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:52:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA24038; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:50:40 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:50:40 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko Reply-To: Marc Slemko To: nik@iii.co.uk cc: Terry Lambert , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DEVFS/SLICE and SOFT UPDATE patches. In-Reply-To: <19980225102152.50924@iii.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 nik@iii.co.uk wrote: > On Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:52:23AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Use http://www.freebsd.org/~julian/ if you are using a brain-damaged > > browser. For some reason, the trailing "/" is important to the WWW > > server on FreeeBSD.org... > > > > This is a job for... Variant Symbolic Links! > > Uh, no it isn't. It's a job for people to start writing URLs properly. > > If you're referring to a directory (as the URL above is) then you must > include the trailing slash. Otherwise, the webserver thinks you're trying > to retrieve a file of that name instead. > > When the web server realises that the file is not there, it will either > > a) Return the appropriate "File not found" code to the browser > > or > > b) Speculatively put a '/' on the end and try again. > > I don't think any web servers currently do (b), but I wouldn't stake my > life on it. > > When a server responds with (a) the browser may or may not speculatively > put a '/' on the end and resubmit the request. Most browsers do indeed do > this. Some obviously don't, and I presume these are the 'brain damaged ones' > referred to above. Erm... no. If the request doesn't have a trailing '/', then it is asking for a file in the directory above the desired directory. A web server is free to give them the correct answer that it doesn't exist. However, nearly all web servers (including Apache) will decide to be nice to the user and send a redirect to the client refering them to the URL with the trailing '/'. The client does not, should not, and must not dumbly try adding trailing '/'s. The normal cause for the case where a URL without a trailing '/' breaks but one with it works is because the server is configured incorrectly so what it thinks of as its server name and reality are different, so the client can't connect to the server name sent in the redirection. This does not depend on the client in any way, shape, or form, unless they are so dumb they both can't handle redirects automatically and don't properly display the message body when they can't handle them. "Variant Symbolic Links" are irrelevant and can not fix the problem for the same reason that the server can't just send the document instead of sending a redirect: then the client's concept of a relative URL would be based in the wrong directory. There is no need for a fix for anything because nothing is broken. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:16:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11501 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:16:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA11467 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:16:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA19853; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:15:51 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:15:51 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: Nate Williams Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: <199803050530.WAA16531@mt.sri.com> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen. >... >> >> I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip. > >But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused >them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only >difference was the Xserver. I have two boxes running Xig: One is a P5-133, the other is a PII-300. I just rummaged through the logs back unto creation, and neither show the dreaded sio overflow. (I complained about this a couple of years back. Somebody accused me of pushing my serial port too hard or something. My serial mouse was triggering the overflows. :-) Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:16:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11597 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11505 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:16:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhay@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA00864 for current@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:15:56 +0200 (SAT) From: John Hay Message-Id: <199803050615.IAA00864@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: current "make release" failure To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:15:56 +0200 (SAT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, My daily -current "make release" failed this morning with the following during the GENERIC kernel build phase: ----- cc -c -O -Wreturn-type -Wcomment -Wredundant-decls -Wimplicit -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wuninitialized -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../.. -I../../../include -DKERNEL -include opt_global.h ../../pci/if_tx.c ../../pci/if_tx.c: In function `epic_set_media_speed': ../../pci/if_tx.c:1049: `ITM_GMASK' undeclared (first use this function) ../../pci/if_tx.c:1049: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once ../../pci/if_tx.c:1049: for each function it appears in.) machine/cpufunc.h:283: warning: inlining failed in call to `outl' ../../pci/if_tx.c:1049: warning: called from here *** Error code 1 Stop. ----- Should the ITM_GMASK be IFM_GMASK? John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:38:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14654 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:38:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14573; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:37:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bde@godzilla.zeta.org.au) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05933; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:27:31 +1100 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:27:31 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199803050627.RAA05933@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: dmaddox@scsn.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, evanc@synapse.net, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, mike@smith.net.au, shimon@simon-shapiro.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I don't think that the MSIZE option is really needed. If we can >get approval from BDE, or if he would "correct" the suggestion, >the I'll commit it for him. The problem with increasing TTYHOG is that it would waste up to about 2 * (NEW_TTYHOG - OLD_TTYHOG) bytes for (active) ttys that don't need it, in particular for ptys. Systems with a huge number of ptys are more likely to have wired almost all kernel memory already. >> Index: sio.c >> =================================================================== >> RCS file: /local/home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c,v >> retrieving revision 1.194 >> diff -r1.194 sio.c >> 117a118 >> > /* >> 119a121,123 >> > */ >> > #define RB_I_HIGH_WATER (TTYHOG / 2) >> > #define RS_IBUFSIZE (TTYHOG / 4) In previous mail, I confused RB_I_HIGH_WATER with RS_IHIGHWATER and said that it was wrong. It is OK, but there is another copy of it in tty.c (named I_HIGH_WATER) to change. My version sets all the buffer sizes and watermarks dynamically. I haven't decided the right policy. I currently allocate buffers large enough to hold one second's worth of i/o (e.g., 46K for 4 * 115200 bps). This is wasteful, especially for output. When I last looked at it a few months ago, I got sidetracked looking at anomalous output for large output buffers... It didn't seem to be urgent to finish it :-). Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:43:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15563 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:43:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15557 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:43:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA16893 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:45:52 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:45:51 +0100 (CET) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PAM and friends Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! Is there any work behind the scenes on PAM-ification? I am about to edit the patches I prepared some time ago to include support for Security Dynamics token cards, and I thought I ask before I do it... This would be best done with PAM-like solution, and if it were available (even in alpha stage) I'd also consider adding a Radius module... Andrzej Bialecki ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- abial@warman.org.pl | if(halt_per_mth > 0) { fetch("http://www.freebsd.org") } Research & Academic | "Be open-minded, but don't let your brains to fall out." Network in Poland | All of the above (and more) is just my personal opinion. ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 22:52:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16798 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:52:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from person.dyn.ml.org (dynip242.efn.org [204.214.97.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16790 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:52:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjb@efn.org) Received: from localhost (cjb@localhost) by person.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00733 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:55:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjb@efn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: person.dyn.ml.org: cjb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:54:58 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Brunner X-Sender: cjb@person.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: cjb@efn.org To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Weird CPU clock in dmesg Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Current, I recently noticed something weird in my dmesg: CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 Features=0x1bf Now, I *know* I don't have a 0Mhz CPU, so something is definatly not working here. I wasn't sure if this was a known problem or what, but I thought I'd mention it. I'm running -CURRENT as of 3/2/98 on a i200 (no mmx) chip. Thanks! - Chris Brunner - - cjb@efn.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 23:16:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19386 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:16:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pop.uniserve.com (pop.uniserve.com [204.244.156.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA19381 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:16:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@uniserve.com) Received: from shell.uniserve.com [204.244.186.218] by pop.uniserve.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #4) id 0yAUst-0000Mg-00; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:16:03 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:15:59 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Andrzej Bialecki cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PAM and friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > Hi! > > Is there any work behind the scenes on PAM-ification? I am about to edit PAM seems to be a bit of dead duck these days. Too inflexible, and not secure unless used on the console. I'm looking at SASL. Seems to be a new and better generic auth solution. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 23:41:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24918 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:41:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24859 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:41:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15827; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:39:38 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from sos) Message-Id: <199803050739.IAA15827@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 00:38:07 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:39:38 +0100 (MET) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In reply to John Kelly who wrote: > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:11:25 -0800, Mike Smith > wrote: > > >What people are resisting is that the FreeBSD project, whose volunteers > >are already chronically overworked, should do this finding and > >organising for you. What is *annoying* people is that this has been > >said to you at least five or six times already, and you appear to have > >either ignored or simply failed to understand it. > > You're just not getting it, because you're still thinking small. NO, we are just thinking :) I for one would probably loose interest if the project went into a more corporate style, with money being the item that decides what to do and what not. I get plenty of that at work thankyou. You should realize that the driving force behind the project is that we do this FOR FUN, and because it makes us feel good to work on a free project that can turn out software, that is as good if not better than the big commercial entities. If I wanted to do it for the money, I wouldn't be here, I'd spend all my time consulting, and pile up the bucks :) But for some of us money isn't the main issue, its the challenge to do what we do, its the reward of seeing that your ideas/work is being used worldwide. That being said, we must realize that most of us are buzy & over- worked, and only has so much left to put into the project. The solution to this is that donations might buy some of the developers time to work on FreeBSD, but still be able to by pizza, diapers and what else is nessesary to sustain life. > I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which > may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which > can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the > coders for what they do best. > > Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will > begin to see the light. That would be turning a volounteer project into a real business. I think that would be fatal to the project as alot of people would just run away screaming.... If you want a commercial BSD, go for BSDi.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Wed Mar 4 23:42:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25429 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:42:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25393 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:42:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00677; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:06:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803050406.XAA00677@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: <199803050338.TAA05622@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Mar 4, 98 07:38:30 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:06:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, dmaddox@scsn.net, evanc@synapse.net, Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman said: > >> Add this to your system conf: > >> > >> options "MSIZE=256" > > > >Interesting; why change the mbuf size? Is this a recommended change > >for general operation, or is 128 bytes still preferred? > > You don't want to do that. Without other changes, our networking code > behaves poorly when MSIZE is not 128. > I agree, that was a mistake on my part. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 00:10:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29832 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:10:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29827 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bde@godzilla.zeta.org.au) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10228; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:08:12 +1100 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:08:12 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: cjb@efn.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Weird CPU clock in dmesg Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I recently noticed something weird in my dmesg: >CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 > Features=0x1bf Setting of the frequency is broken if apm0 is configured (even if apm0 is disabled or its probe fails). Don't configure apm0 if you don't use it. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 00:50:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA05713 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:50:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isvara.net (root@[130.88.148.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05664; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:50:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@challenge.isvara.net) Received: from challenge.isvara.net ([130.88.66.5]) by isvara.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10511; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:49:44 GMT Message-ID: <34FE672D.FA5A7F08@challenge.isvara.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:49:49 +0000 From: freebsd@isvara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: Ethernet card driver References: <199803042232.OAA22559@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm about to write an ethernet card driver (3Com 3C905), utilizing > > all the features of the card (Bus master DMA transfers, etc). > > Sounds good. > > > What calls are required to interface to the kernel (I prefer not looking > > at other code, and writing from scratch) ? > > > > The functions {xxinit, xxattach, ...}have quite obvious names for what > > they should do, but I am unsure *exactly* what should be done were. > > The best thing for you to do _is_ to look at other code, for > real-world, known-functional examples. The fxp driver is an excellent > place to start from your point of view - it's another PCI busmaster > ethernet card, with known good performance and excellent reliability. I can look at other code, but I thought it may be quicker if anyone knew the information I was after (it would save digging through all the code), and I like writing code given a few base specificaitions, rather than seeing how someone elses' (potentally bogus) code. Any takers? Dan _____________________________________ Daniel J Blueman BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 01:27:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10686 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:27:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10665 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:27:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id TAA04442; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:35:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma004440; Thu, 5 Mar 98 19:35:44 +1000 Received: from troll.dtir.qld.gov.au (troll.dtir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.1]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00316; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:27:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (syssgm@localhost) by troll.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA15964; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:27:06 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199803050927.TAA15964@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: troll.dtir.qld.gov.au: syssgm@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) References: <199803050530.WAA16531@mt.sri.com> In-Reply-To: <199803050530.WAA16531@mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "05 Mar 1998 15:36:45 +1000" Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:27:06 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 5th March 1998, Nate Williams wrote: >> > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen. >> >> I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip. > >But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused >them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only >difference was the Xserver. But do you have an S3 or a Matrox? (I missed the bit where you detailed your hardware configuration.) If it is a Matrox and there is a special "go easy on the PCI bus" flag in some deeply buried register, it could have been missed by the XFree86 people but correctly set by XiG. And to stick up for S3, I use 801 ISA, 805 VLB and Trio64V+ PCI based video in various machines and have seen no serial port interference from any of them. But the borrowed Matrox caused silo overflow problems. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 01:34:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11825 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp7237.on.bellglobal.com (ppp7237.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11819 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:34:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA01196; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 04:31:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 04:31:35 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: John Kelly cc: Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow > into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do. I don't really understand the great furour involved in this argument. The number of donations to make any kind of "voting system" at all meaningful simply does not and will not exist in the reasonable future! However, if some people would like to see NFS fixed at any and all cost (that it's already getting attention beside the fact), but are themselves only willing to pay $250 incremental, they should band together through the lists and news. If a group of individuals and/or businesses can guarantee sufficient funds to fully complete & fund such a project, I'm sure Jordan (on behalf on FreeBSD inc.) will gladly take their money for that express purpose, and if not Jordan, I'm sure someone else will. But please, FreeBSD Inc. is not a multi-million dollar operation (nor will it be within the time-frame it should be planning for) and offering donators a vote is akin to offering a promise which it can never keep. That is bad customer-relations, long-term detrimental, and self-destructive. That said, it is much easier for my conscience to let me make a donation when I am guaranteed something in return. Cheap FreeBSD paraphenalia can be 1) way cool, and 2) cheap advertising to attract new users. Chuck brandishing his pitchfork out of the heart of my computer over-top of a "Chuckie Power!"^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HPowered by FreeBSD" embalm would invoke spectator curiousity in FreeBSD and provide a few meagre funds for FreeBSD. [I think, though, anything more expensive than a Chu^H^H^Hpowered by freebsd sticker should not be offered as a "thankyou" for donating, but rather as a product which just happens to have an unusually high mark-up :-]. > And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and > call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like. Well, we could always call it FreeGPL ;-) (Eeek!). -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 01:44:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13261 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:44:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA13209 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:43:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09743; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:37:29 +0100 (CET) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:38:07 GMT." <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:37:29 +0100 Message-ID: <9741.889090649@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net>, John Kelly writes: >I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which >may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which >can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the >coders for what they do best. > >Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will >begin to see the light. Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck. And even $1M may be too high for our ability. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 01:58:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15283 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:58:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15277 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:58:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10120; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:53:18 +0100 (CET) To: cjb@efn.org cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Weird CPU clock in dmesg In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:54:58 PST." Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:53:17 +0100 Message-ID: <10118.889091597@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Chris Brunner writes: >Current, >I recently noticed something weird in my dmesg: >CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 > Features=0x1bf >Now, I *know* I don't have a 0Mhz CPU, so something is definatly not >working here. I wasn't sure if this was a known problem or what, but I >thought I'd mention it. >I'm running -CURRENT as of 3/2/98 on a i200 (no mmx) chip. Do you have APM or SMP enabled in your kernel ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:01:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA15680 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:01:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA15671 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:01:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10158; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:55:28 +0100 (CET) To: Bruce Evans cc: cjb@efn.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Weird CPU clock in dmesg In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:08:12 +1100." <199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:55:27 +0100 Message-ID: <10156.889091727@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au>, Bruce Evans writes: >>I recently noticed something weird in my dmesg: >>CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU) >> Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 >> Features=0x1bf > >Setting of the frequency is broken if apm0 is configured (even if apm0 >is disabled or its probe fails). Don't configure apm0 if you don't >use it. I'm currently looking at handling this better. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:03:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16372 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:03:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.91.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16344 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:03:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA00196; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 04:31:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 04:31:42 -0500 (EST) From: Charlie ROOT To: Stephen McKay cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: <199803050927.TAA15964@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What version of Xfree86 is this, They fixed a TON of S3 bugs in the 3.3.2 release which was out about 2 days ago. for some strange reason the perms are set wrong on the 3.3.2 dir at ftp.xfree86.org, so i got them from ftp.kernel.org/pub/mirrors/xfree86 --Dan On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Thursday, 5th March 1998, Nate Williams wrote: > > >> > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen. > >> > >> I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip. > > > >But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused > >them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only > >difference was the Xserver. > > But do you have an S3 or a Matrox? (I missed the bit where you detailed > your hardware configuration.) If it is a Matrox and there is a special > "go easy on the PCI bus" flag in some deeply buried register, it could > have been missed by the XFree86 people but correctly set by XiG. > > And to stick up for S3, I use 801 ISA, 805 VLB and Trio64V+ PCI based > video in various machines and have seen no serial port interference from > any of them. But the borrowed Matrox caused silo overflow problems. > > Stephen. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:11:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18099 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:11:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18072 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:11:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16357; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:09:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:37:29 +0100." <9741.889090649@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:09:05 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about > $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck. > And even $1M may be too high for our ability. At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily spend a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for a salaried position --- I am not . Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:14:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18661 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:14:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18575 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:13:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10325; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:07:32 +0100 (CET) To: Amancio Hasty cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:09:05 PST." <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:07:31 +0100 Message-ID: <10323.889092451@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes: >> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about >> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck. >> And even $1M may be too high for our ability. > >At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily spend >a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want >to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for >a salaried position --- I am not . I think people would happily do it for $80.000 if they could avoid offices. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:17:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19104 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:17:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19081 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:17:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04352; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:16:21 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from sos) Message-Id: <199803051016.LAA04352@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <10323.889092451@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Mar 5, 98 11:07:31 am" To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:16:21 +0100 (MET) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, jak@cetlink.net, mike@smith.net.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In reply to Poul-Henning Kamp who wrote: > In message <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes: > >> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about > >> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck. > >> And even $1M may be too high for our ability. > > > >At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily spend > >a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want > >to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for > >a salaried position --- I am not . > > I think people would happily do it for $80.000 if they could avoid offices. Yup. Getting rid of as much corporate feeling as possible will help :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:34:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21965 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:34:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21941 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:34:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16565; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803051033.CAA16565@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:07:31 +0100." <10323.889092451@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:33:44 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes: > >> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about > >> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck. > >> And even $1M may be too high for our ability. > > > >At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily spend > >a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want > >to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for > >a salaried position --- I am not . > > I think people would happily do it for $80.000 if they could avoid offices. Nope, $100, 000 is about right . insurance , equipment , phone calls . In fact we can probably spend more than $1M/year : equipment -- computers for testing, engineering, and ports group communication cost including phone system or calls. test group porting group engineering group marketing group --- we don't want to go around doing this telethon thingy every year. sales --- well the sky is the limit on this one. What building/offices , telecommute Dude!! We can probably use all the money plus more of what people can throw at FreeBSD.org. To the group: While we are having this nice chat, have you thought of sending your small donation ? I did 8) Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:37:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22537 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22530 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:37:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14062; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:37:16 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA04499; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:37:16 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980305113715.21228@follo.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:37:15 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Eivind Eklund , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: xlock freezes last two weeks References: <19980303224835.36978@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980303224835.36978@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:48:35PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:48:35PM +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote: > I've had 3 or 4 freezes while the computer is in xlock these last two weeks; > never happened before. All of them have been while the screensaver was that > large circle-like thing (lots of line forming a complex circular pattern) > with cycling. I've also had two crashes while doing large compiles. > > FreeBSD has been completely locked; not even answering pings. Forget this. It turned out my CPU-fan had burned out, so this was due to CPU-overheating, not FreeBSD bugs. My apologies. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:38:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA23075 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:38:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA23038 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:38:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10465; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:32:11 +0100 (CET) To: Amancio Hasty cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:33:44 PST." <199803051033.CAA16565@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:32:11 +0100 Message-ID: <10463.889093931@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199803051033.CAA16565@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes: >> In message <199803051009.CAA16357@rah.star-gate.com>, Amancio Hasty writes: >> >> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about >> >> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buc >k. >> >> And even $1M may be too high for our ability. >> > >> >At about $100, 000 per engineer and a cheap one at that we can easily sp >end >> >a $1M/year . $1M/year would probably buy us about 7 engineers if we want >> >to give them offices . If people are wondering if I am pitching for >> >a salaried position --- I am not . >> >> I think people would happily do it for $80.000 if they could avoid offices. > >Nope, $100, 000 is about right . insurance , equipment , phone calls . >In fact we can probably spend more than $1M/year : > >equipment -- computers for testing, engineering, and ports group >communication cost including phone system or calls. >test group >porting group >engineering group >marketing group --- we don't want to go around doing this telethon thingy > every year. >sales --- well the sky is the limit on this one. Do that and you'll find the bandwagon has plenty of space all of sudden. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:54:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25383 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:54:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA25377 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:54:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18225; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:50:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803051050.CAA18225@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:32:11 +0100." <10463.889093931@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:50:07 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Do that and you'll find the bandwagon has plenty of space all of sudden. I can see a long explanation detailing why you are not a masochist. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:55:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25733 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:55:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA25699 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:55:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14228; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:55:14 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA04553; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:55:13 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980305115513.01043@follo.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:55:13 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: John Kelly , Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <6845.889044751@critter.freebsd.dk> <3501ea66.42205029@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3501ea66.42205029@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 12:02:37AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 12:02:37AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:52:31 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp > wrote: > > >>do we really want large amounts of corporate money? > > >No, I don't think we do, but it would be really nice if we could get > >a handful of the best hackers we have liberated from the utter waste > >of time which occupies too much of their lives. > > Whether the money is small or large, I don't see why anyone should be > unwilling to work at the direction of those funding the effort. They > do it at their current employment, why not for the paying donors of > FreeBSD? My personal case: I want more input than I'd get working only on FreeBSD proper. I'm not certain I'd do as good work on FreeBSD if I had to work only on that 'forever'. But I still think being able to buy 6 months of people's time would be a Good Thing. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 02:59:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26294 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:59:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA26287 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:59:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA08011 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:58:23 -0800 (PST) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Funding discussion - redirect please! Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:58:23 -0800 Message-ID: <8008.889095503@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been trying to get it into -chat where it belongs but people just aren't cooperating. Please, folks, take the funding discussions OUT OF -CURRENT NOW PLEASE! Thank you! Sorry to shout, but nothing else seems to work around here right now. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 05:38:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13299 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:38:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13286 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:38:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22226; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:34:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karpen) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199803051334.OAA22226@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 00:38:07 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:34:13 +0100 (CET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to John Kelly: > I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which > may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which > can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the > coders for what they do best. > > Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will > begin to see the light. Here's a few tips: Jordan doesn't want more work. Lots of people work on FreeBSD because they don't get paid. THey have no boss that is breathing down their neck, or making them work on something they don't want to. FreeBSD is not a democracy. It's a kingdom with Jordan at the throne, and a group of nobleties around him. They make the decissions on what happens to the FreeBSD project and not. The thing happen to be that there guys are mostly a very nice group of people who like people to come and "live in their country". They tend to therefor listen to the peasants, and they encourage attempts to improve the "kingdom". No one of forced to stay, but people move in from everywhere because they think it's a nice place. The powers that be are trusted and supported, and tend to make very sane decissions. That's why I stay. Your system has clearly been voted down, and it will not happen. Just face it and move on. Please DO send you money, but don't expect them to end up where YOU want them. Expect them to end up where ther are most needed, for the FreeBSD in general. So this is what you do: Start an organisation. You make a nice webpage, and start a mailinglist for "members only". You convince our beloved webmaster to add a link to your site from the main FreeBSD webpage to attract more corporations to your page. You charge something like $500 (or voluntarily more)/year for membership. Members get a vote for thier $500, and get so be on the mailinglist. For every time they double the money they give to the origanisation per year, they get another vote. You collect all the money, you handle the administration of that and the voting. Depending on the amount of money you raise, the top voted for projects are funded. This is done by simply hiring one or more well known FreeBSD hackers as consultants and making them carry out the coding, after the usual discussion on the normal FreeBSD lists, and/or discussions with the core team, so you don't end up making deadend developments. If stuff are rejected as is, discuss a way to get as much as possible into the source, and keep the rest available as easy to install extra patches that people that need them can download and use. As projects are done, or partly done they are submitted the normal route and very likely included in the FreeBSD main source. Maybe you donate some of the funds with no strings attached to FreeBSD, Inc. Provide whatever else in extra-value that your member corporations wants. And there... Your dream come true. And I'm sure you'd even be encouraged by everyone using FreeBSD. If you pull this off, nothing will change from the current state of things, except that eventually we will see large chunks of code supplied from your little group of coders incorporated as the core team sees fit into the main FreeBSD source, just like any other patch. Hopefully you can attract corporations that today are not giving anything in form of funds to the FreeBSD project and that could very well be interested in a rather expensive membership in your organisation to help further development in one of the products they use. Maybe it would even help on the "how to name the bill so the management stays happy"-problem for some. Now, what are you waiting for? /Mikael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 05:48:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15379 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:48:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cabri.obs-besancon.fr (cabri.obs-besancon.fr [193.52.184.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA15351 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:48:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr) Received: by cabri.obs-besancon.fr (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA06681; Thu, 5 Mar 98 14:51:40 +0100 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 14:51:40 +0100 Message-Id: <9803051351.AA06681@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: garyj@muc.de Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803042130.WAA13983@peedub.muc.de> (message from Gary Jennejohn on Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:30:16 +0100) Subject: Re: gdb dying in -current X-Mailer: Emacs Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> Gary Jennejohn writes: > I forget who had a problem with gdb core dumping under -current (but the > program he was trying to debug is called pot). Anyway, here's a diff > that allows me to run gdb on that binary. Check it out and provide > feedback, whoever you were :-) [beware - cut&paste !!!] Thanks for the patch. It solves my problem. In the meanwhile I discovered that recompiling an old static library I was using also prevented gdb to core dump. What is the problem with .o files compiled 2 years ago? Jean-Marc _____________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 08:47:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05575 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:47:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05546 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00971; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:46:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803051646.LAA00971@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <199803051334.OAA22226@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "Mar 5, 98 02:34:13 pm" To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:46:49 -0500 (EST) Cc: jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikael Karpberg said: > > FreeBSD is not a democracy. It's a kingdom with Jordan at the throne, and > a group of nobleties around him. > Even though almost everyone in -core respects and generally likes JKH, note that he is NOT a king. If there was alot of disagreement with JKH, he would hear about it, and most likely pipe-down. JKH handles alot of the things that the other developers don't want to be bothered with. Given that, he deserves a huge amount of respect, and the rest of core mostly realizes that the coherent and generally reasonable positions that JKH takes have been working out very nicely. We would be alot worse off without him. JKH is very good at this common-sense thing and what he does, and believe me, he also doesn't take an autocratic standpoint on things. Think of JKH as our spokesperson, and leader because it is a postion that he is very good at. IMO, because of that, he has more respect than if he was a "king" or "autocrat". DG is in that category also. The -core organization is NOT a mutual admiration society, but simply something that works pretty well. -core has been pretty much self organizing, almost in an organic fashion. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:07:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10063 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10057 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:07:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23347; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:07:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA18935; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:07:09 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:07:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199803051707.KAA18935@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Stephen McKay Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: <199803050927.TAA15964@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> References: <199803050530.WAA16531@mt.sri.com> <199803050927.TAA15964@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> > I can tell you that uniquivocally XFree86 causes this to happen. > >> > >> I am guessing it is something to do with the S3 chip. > > > >But I didn't change boards when I changed X servers. XFree86 caused > >them, XIG didn't. The hardware was exactly the same, the only > >difference was the Xserver. > > But do you have an S3 or a Matrox? Yes. :) The board at home which gets all the serial/modem traffic is an S3 board. The one at work is a Matrox. :) > And to stick up for S3, I use 801 ISA, 805 VLB and Trio64V+ PCI based > video in various machines and have seen no serial port interference from > any of them. But the borrowed Matrox caused silo overflow problems. The board that causes silo overflows due to Xfree86 is a 928 (old) board. But, it also had problems when it had an 801 board in it. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:18:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12001 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11980 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:17:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA04577; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:17:53 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: John Saunders Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:19:50 GMT Message-ID: <34ffdd5f.17323509@mail.cetlink.net> References: <34FE191D.1D676AC3@scitec.com.au> In-Reply-To: <34FE191D.1D676AC3@scitec.com.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA11994 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:16:45 +1100, John Saunders wrote: >If you use an IDE disk then 10 to 1 that's the problem. Particularly >if the IDE driver is doing multi-sector transfers. Interrupts must be >disabled during IDE PIO transfers (or you can risk data corruption) >and the time taken to transfer, say 16 sectors, is significant. When Sorry, but this is a myth perpetuated by some Linux users. FreeBSD does not have this problem with IDE disks. I have put Linux and FreeBSD side by side and tested this. Linux fails the test, while FreeBSD never misses a serial byte, even under heavy loading of the disk. The problem is related to the 650 UART support in sio.c. The 550 support works fine. >The solution is to use either a SCSI disk system, or support >busmastering IDE. The real problem is the crazy IRQ priorities of >the PC architeture. Nope, not a problem at all for FreeBSD. The IDE flaw is a Linux problem. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:25:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13186 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:25:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13179 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:25:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23484; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:24:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA19114; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:24:37 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:24:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199803051724.KAA19114@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Charlie ROOT Cc: Stephen McKay , Nate Williams , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: References: <199803050927.TAA15964@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What version of Xfree86 is this, They fixed a TON of S3 bugs in the 3.3.2 > release which was out about 2 days ago. Obviously not this one, since it's been running since before time began. (This box was the *original* FreeBSD build box before FreeBSD existed.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:32:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14454 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:32:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14445 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:32:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA05679; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:32:14 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: John Saunders Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:34:12 GMT Message-ID: <3500e131.18301614@mail.cetlink.net> References: <34FE35AE.181C67A7@scitec.com.au> In-Reply-To: <34FE35AE.181C67A7@scitec.com.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA14446 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:18:38 +1100, John Saunders wrote: >The CD1440 (I think that's the part number) chip in the smart cards >like Stallion and Cyclades do do automatic CTS/RTS handshaking >with the modem. They also have very large FIFOs. Which means you can >run 256 (yes two fifty six) ports at 57600 in a 486 DX4/100 ;-) I just bought some DX4/100s to use as terminal servers. :-) Can you saturate all 256 ports at once? And if you've never seen a load that high, what's the highest you have seen? And is that machine running FreeBSD or Linux? >For those that are interested, 4 Stallion 64 port ISA cards. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:43:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16513 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:43:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16508 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:43:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01239; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:43:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803051743.MAA01239@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) In-Reply-To: <34ffdd5f.17323509@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 05:19:50 pm" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:43:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: john.saunders@scitec.com.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Kelly said: > > The problem is related to the 650 UART support in sio.c. The 550 > support works fine. > I have tried to figure out the problems. I have written 16550 code for the last 10yrs or so, and the 650 seems to be somehow more different than the datasheets imply :-(. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 09:50:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17779 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:50:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17773 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:50:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23682; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:50:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA19424; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:50:00 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:50:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199803051750.KAA19424@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Bruce Evans Cc: cjb@efn.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Weird CPU clock in dmesg In-Reply-To: <199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au> References: <199803050808.TAA10228@godzilla.zeta.org.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >CPU: Pentium (0.00-MHz 586-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 > > Features=0x1bf > > Setting of the frequency is broken if apm0 is configured (even if apm0 > is disabled or its probe fails). Don't configure apm0 if you don't > use it. This didn't use to be the case until recently, since apm has been in GENERIC for over a year. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 10:12:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21496 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:12:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21471 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA08630; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:11:15 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silo overflows (Was Re: 3.0-RELEASE?) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 18:13:13 GMT Message-ID: <3501e530.19324702@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803051743.MAA01239@dyson.iquest.net> In-Reply-To: <199803051743.MAA01239@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA21480 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:43:39 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" wrote: >John Kelly said: >> >> The problem is related to the 650 UART support in sio.c. The 550 >> support works fine. >> >I have tried to figure out the problems. I have written 16550 code >for the last 10yrs or so, and the 650 seems to be somehow more different >than the datasheets imply :-(. Several months ago I had a long exchange with Bruce about 650 UARTs and how to best handle them in sio.c. I wanted to poke around with the 650 support but I never found the time. Too many priorities to juggle. At first I argued that we should turn on the 650 auto RTS, but after reflecting on what he said I have to agree with him that the 650 auto RTS has little practical benefit and it should *not* be turned on. He did say that the 650 auto CTS would be helpful. But after these several months have passed I don't remember why! I might be able to dig out those old messages. I think I archived them. It might also be helpful to set the transmit FIFO trigger level higher than one to avoid transmit underruns. Setting EFR bit 4 to 1 and FCR bits 6 and 7 to 00 should select a transmit FIFO trigger level of 8. If EFR bit 4 is not set to 1, the transmit trigger level defaults to 1 just like a 550. But otherwise, the 650 code should be no different from the 550 code (aside from the larger FIFO sizes). -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 12:30:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15488 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:30:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15483 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:30:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14571; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:30:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd014541; Thu Mar 5 13:30:21 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07313; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:30:07 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803052030.NAA07313@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Donations. To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:30:07 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, jak@cetlink.net, mike@smith.net.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <10463.889093931@critter.freebsd.dk> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Mar 5, 98 11:32:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >Nope, $100, 000 is about right . insurance , equipment , phone calls . > >In fact we can probably spend more than $1M/year : > > > >equipment -- computers for testing, engineering, and ports group > >communication cost including phone system or calls. > >test group > >porting group > >engineering group > >marketing group --- we don't want to go around doing this telethon thingy > > every year. > >sales --- well the sky is the limit on this one. > > Do that and you'll find the bandwagon has plenty of space all of sudden. I definitely agree here. This is tantamount to an effeort at commercialization. If people were to be funded, I personally (not that my opinion matters) would be most happy with administration of funding by the FreeBSD project to fund work on things that aren't fun, either because they are very hard or becuase they nvolve a lot of uninteresting minutia. This is a hell of a lot different that putting together a corporate organism for commercializing FreeBSD. My pet projects would include: o ABI compatability with commercial OS's, including install and other environmental tools that, by their absence, make it impossible for me to easily install off-the-shelf software. o SMP; fine grained, without UP impact o RealTime support (deadlining) o Networking (NetBEUI, PC-server client FS's, etc.) o Keeping up with the Jones's (Linux Jones, OpenBSD Jones, etc.; mostly hardware support, like guaranteeing FreeBSD will run on any given Dell/Gateway/Whatever box you buy, but also security and other patches that other BSD's have volunteers for that FreeBSD doesn't) o Porting to other platforms o A grumpy old man for the source tree to go around behind developers cleaning up trivial things that keep the tree from being buildable, and in general, implementing dependencies that actually work and any other similar scut-work that needs doing. A source-base reputation polisher, if you will. In other words, things that volunteers are unlikely to do, or that are unlikely to get done without paying someone to do them because of complexity of the task, or the ongoing maintenance penalty, or for whatever other reasons. Anyone should fee free to add to this list, but no voting or other crap should be employed in the decision making process for resource allocation; there is no room for Gerrymandering. For lack of a better description, "scut-work"... "work" as opposed to "fun". I would definitely oppose commercialization of FreeBSD itself; if you want a commercial BSD, go get BSDI. Commercial software, in my experience, does not raise the bar in a useful way (ie: "here is the new bar, everyone else take the code and put up the new bar"). FreeBSD is in a unique position, I think (well, nearly; other BSD's are in a similar position, and a couple other projects fall into that category as well). I have worked for more than one commercial company that not only did not want the bar generally raised, they actively opposed anyone else raising any bars, because it would mean integration work for them (and to hell with the fact that they were nailing the left foot of progress to the floor). Anyone else see any commercial software companies in that description? ...I knew you could. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 12:51:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17845 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:51:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17837 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:50:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02263; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:50:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803052050.MAA02263@rah.star-gate.com> To: Terry Lambert cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), hasty@rah.star-gate.com, jak@cetlink.net, mike@smith.net.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:30:07 GMT." <199803052030.NAA07313@usr06.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <2260.889131027.1@rah> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:50:27 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Please Terry don't be naive. Because I like you I will give you one more chance. I will give you a high level hint: No traditional management technique is going to apply to FreeBSD.org due to its culture and motivation drive. This invitation does not apply to Poul-Koening not sure he can cope at this level 8) Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 14:53:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02773 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:53:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from infowest.com (infowest.com [204.17.177.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02768 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:53:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from agifford@infowest.com) Received: from infowest.com (dialup4-43.infowest.net [207.49.60.96]) by infowest.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19113 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:52:44 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <34FF2C9E.4457A615@infowest.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:52:14 +0000 From: "Aaron D. Gifford" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com> <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net> <19980304083721.56007@mcs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Karl Denninger wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:07:29PM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" > > wrote: > > > > >> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be > > >> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by > > >> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do > > >> that. > > > > > >This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have > > >a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate > > >funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now? > > > > > > Jordan > > > > Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do. > > > > If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone > > else will. > > Bingo. > > MCSNet could make a reasonably-sized donation to this cause (few thousand > bucks) and would have no problem with doing so. In fact, if we had some > idea what that incremental funding would do, I could make the business case > to be significantly more generous. Simply put, money ain't the issue. > > The issue is that there are certain things that we really *NEED* fixed, and > to stay as priorities in remaining fixed as time goes on (things that used > to work, and are now broken for example - specifically, NFS issues for one, > and behavior under troublesome SCSI conditions [ie: returns of a defective > block from the controller] for another). I'm running kernels and OSs > patched up from November, specifically because since then the stability of > -CURRENT is bad enough from both direct observation and reports that if > the risks grossly outweigh the rewards of trying to roll an upgrade > through the network right now. > > If I fund the *breakage* of something critical to us, I'm shooting myself > in the foot. That's unwise. > > I understand that Jordan and the rest of the core team have their own > priorities. They sometimes don't mesh with mine. Ok, good and well. I > work around what I can, patch around what I can't work around, and remain > a few rev levels back if necessary in certain areas. That level of choice > is one of the nicities of a free operating system environment with source > code in a CVS tree. > > But for me to justify shaking loose the money on the tree, I need to be able > to show benefit. That's just business - its not personal in any way. > > -- > -- > Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin > http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems > Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS > Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message I have to agree with both sides of this issue. Let me explain. I believe Jordan's no-strings stand is an absolute necessity for ANY free software non-profit organization that wants to succeed. I believe there are enough folks who contribute freely without being compensated because they enjoy doing so, and I believe many of these same folks would loose motivation to contribute if donations with strings became the norm. Now I must agree with Karl that for a business (I use FreeBSD where I work too), contributing money WITH strings attached works best for the business and is the best way to encourage larger business donations. So how would I reconcile these two conflicting interests? Simply. Keep the status quo as far as donations to FreeBSD, Inc., but for ANY and ALL businesses who want specific projects undertaken, get busy and SOLICIT support from OTHER businesses, get together, and FUND development on your project independently, then contribute your work back to FreeBSD if you really believe in the free software model. Otherwise, found another BSDI. Aaron out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 15:08:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05676 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.91.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05658 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:08:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA00242 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:12:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:12:35 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Something someone should look into Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've sent this to the smp mailing list, but i never get it back from the mailing list on either email address i have subscribed, so i assume the list is working weirdly. Anyway At least on every dual processor SuperMicro board i've tested, if you have Adaptec bios 1.24, the SMP kernel will hang (well, after a while the adaptec times out, the kernel panics, etc) 1.25 works fine. Someone who is working on either the aic or smp code should look at this. either test for bios ver 1.24 and not allow it, or something of the sort. Adaptec, in true Adaptec fashion, won't answer my question about why this is happening. --DAn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 16:00:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12200 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opus.cts.cwu.edu (skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu [198.104.92.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12189 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:00:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu) Received: from localhost (skynyrd@localhost) by opus.cts.cwu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA19106; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:00:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:00:54 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Timmons To: Daniel Berlin cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SMP & pci bridged cards? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Are you sure this isn't the known problem about pci<->pci bridges with smp kernels? Do you see the problem with 3940's but not 2940's? See http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/pcibridge.html. I saw similar behavior which was caused by just this phenomenon - following the procedure and hacking mp_machdep.c by hand per the www page got things going on my tyan s1662D with a 3940. Perhaps this problem is one that could receive some attention in Steve Passe's abscence? Some hints on an architectural direction wrt the pci code would be welcome. With an architectural template, some proto-SMP hackers might emerge from the woodwork. -Chris On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Daniel Berlin wrote: > I've sent this to the smp mailing list, but i never get it back from the > mailing list on either email address i have subscribed, so i assume the > list is working weirdly. > Anyway > At least on every dual processor SuperMicro board i've tested, if you have > Adaptec bios 1.24, the SMP kernel will hang (well, after a while the > adaptec times out, the kernel panics, etc) > 1.25 works fine. > Someone who is working on either the aic or smp code should look at this. > either test for bios ver 1.24 and not allow it, or something of the sort. > Adaptec, in true Adaptec fashion, won't answer my question about why this > is happening. > --DAn > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 17:00:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20295 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:00:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu (louis.sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu [146.245.1.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20289 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:00:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dayton@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu) Received: (from dayton@localhost) by sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu (8.8.7/8.8.4) id RAA14410; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:35:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:35:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803052235.RAA14410@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu> From: Dayton Clark To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: make buildworld Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks, I've grabbed the current source and checked it out, as recommended. When I make buildworld I get the output below. If I go into usr/src/include/rpcsrv I can make yp.h, but all others fail. I assume I've done something silly, but I can't figure what. thanks dayton kronos:root tcsh # make buildworld ... much stuff that seems fine ... -------------------------------------------------------------- Rebuilding /usr/include -------------------------------------------------------------- cd /usr/src && SHARED=symlinks PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/sbin:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/sbin:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/bin:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/etc:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/etc:. BISON_SIMPLE=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/share/misc/bison.simple COMPILER_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/libexec:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/bin GCC_EXEC_PREFIX=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/lib/ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/lib LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/lib:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/lib NOEXTRADEPEND=t /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/bin/make DESTDIR=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp includes cd /drive/sd0s2f/usr/local/src/FreeBSD/Work/usr/src/include && /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/bin/make -B all install creating osreldate.h from newvers.sh . /drive/sd0s2f/usr/local/src/FreeBSD/Work/usr/src/include/../sys/conf/newvers.sh; echo "$COPYRIGHT" > osreldate.h; echo \#'undef __FreeBSD_version' >> osreldate.h; echo \#'define __FreeBSD_version' $RELDATE >> osreldate.h ===> rpcsvc rpcgen -C -h /drive/sd0s2f/usr/local/src/FreeBSD/Work/usr/src/include/rpcsvc/key_prot.x -o key_prot.h rpcgen*** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. 127.292u 63.836s 5:06.27 62.4% 345+452k 4214+6586io 17pf+0w Exit 1 kronos:root tcsh # cpp: output pipe has been closed To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 18:32:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02007 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:32:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.91.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02000 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:32:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA13218; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:27:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:27:39 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: Chris Timmons cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SMP & pci bridged cards? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I took a look at that. The 3940 is special because they cheat by including a pci bridge on the card to handle the extra channel, instead of using some weird method. So it's effectively an extra controller, AFAIK. IE the controllers don't know they are on the same card,etc. I'm doing this from memory of what a friend at adaptec told me once. the 2940 is single channel. I haven't had time to delve to deeply into the source as to why it happens, but it indeed only happens on 1.24 bioses (i only have access to 1.24,1.25,1.32 and 1.34). I would rather figure out if it's adaptec's fault before trying to fix something that ain't broke. --Dan On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Chris Timmons wrote: > > Are you sure this isn't the known problem about pci<->pci bridges with smp > kernels? Do you see the problem with 3940's but not 2940's? See > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/pcibridge.html. > > I saw similar behavior which was caused by just this phenomenon - > following the procedure and hacking mp_machdep.c by hand per the www page > got things going on my tyan s1662D with a 3940. > > Perhaps this problem is one that could receive some attention in Steve > Passe's abscence? Some hints on an architectural direction wrt the pci > code would be welcome. With an architectural template, some proto-SMP > hackers might emerge from the woodwork. > > -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:11:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07875 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA07861 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:11:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 6492 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Mar 1998 03:19:53 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803051646.LAA00971@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:19:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: Donations. Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, (Mikael Karpberg) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: > Mikael Karpberg said: >> >> FreeBSD is not a democracy. It's a kingdom with Jordan at the throne, >> and >> a group of nobleties around him. >> > Even though almost everyone in -core respects and generally likes JKH, > note that he is NOT a king. If there was alot of disagreement with > JKH, he would hear about it, and most likely pipe-down. JKH handles > alot of the things that the other developers don't want to be bothered > with. Given that, he deserves a huge amount of respect, and the rest > of core mostly realizes that the coherent and generally reasonable > positions > that JKH takes have been working out very nicely. We would be alot worse > off without him. > > JKH is very good at this common-sense thing and what he does, and believe > me, he also doesn't take an autocratic standpoint on things. Think of > JKH as our spokesperson, and leader because it is a postion that he is > very good at. IMO, because of that, he has more respect than if he was > a "king" or "autocrat". Agree. However, Mikael's point (albeit strong) has substance. There is no democratic mechanism in FreeBSD. There is a republican mechanism perhaps. I think I read some opinions which would like to see some path of recognition, or control for non-core members of this effort called FreeBSD. This is not an invalid or unreasonable request. My two cents on this: I do not belive in systems. I belive in people. While FreeBSD may apear, or actually be, to a degree, a nobel repubic, I have to say that it is run on much more logic, fairness, and honesty that other software projects that run regular elections, have candidates, trustees, formal boards of dirctors, etc., etc. While their structure is more democratic, it end up being more demagogic. I am sure that the day the FreeBSD will turn to less then honest, fair, and just organization, will be the day it will fold. Exactly because I have no say in whzt part of my efforts is accepted into FreeBSD source tree, or how quickly, the only reason I stick around and try to contribute and help, is because I want to. I do not get paid by the project, I cannot control the project. I only contribute because I belive it is useful, and the contribution serves my own purposes. > DG is in that category also. The -core organization is NOT a mutual > admiration society, but simply something that works pretty well. -core > has been pretty much self organizing, almost in an organic fashion. I totally agree. I think a bit of P/R towards the ``grey masses'' would not hurt anyone. It is easy to get shunted and feel very much ``outside''. Especially, in the beginning. One More Point: I think some people have said the following in several contexts, but we have to realize that this is a volunteer effort, and that most of the major contributors are busy with their work. This means that the scope of certain projects has to be limited, or that the management has to get together and decide what to do. Examples: Fine-Grain Locking in SMP. Unless this forum knows for a fact something the rest of the industry does not know, I think it will not happen. It is simply a huge amount of grunt work, will terribly de-stabilize the kernel so much that it will amount to a complete re-write. It is a huge undertaking. A more subdued, preactical and realistic goal is needed (FreeBSD runs on PCs guys, not on Sequents). NFS If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than one person's weekend job. I'll take a piece of such effort. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:18:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09240 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA09224 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 6716 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Mar 1998 03:26:24 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980305115513.01043@follo.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:26:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: Donations. Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp , John Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Eivind Eklund wrote: ... > My personal case: I want more input than I'd get working only on > FreeBSD proper. I'm not certain I'd do as good work on FreeBSD if I > had to work only on that 'forever'. But I still think being able to > buy 6 months of people's time would be a Good Thing. The only problem is our karnal nature. Based on what we see so far, can you imagine the mehem once core member X gets 30% of the budget for his/her pet project, while developer Y gets nothing. As much as I wanted to help and triggered much of this debate, I almost regret doing it. I think setting realistic goals and changing (some) of the progress from ``I write what I please when I please'' to a plan layed out by -core, setting achievable goals and finding colunteers to participate in that effort, as subordinates rather than masters may move some stuff that is stuck now. I had a friend in another free software project that was involved in building a communications sattelite for the Ham Radio operators. He fascinated me with the details of how the different disciplines corrdinated to lift the thing into space and have it actually work. I apologize for forgetting your name, but you are probably listening... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:32:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11678 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:32:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11639 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:32:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmaddox@scsn.net) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.43]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA147 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:22:38 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id WAA00607; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:26:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root) Message-ID: <19980305222643.01401@scsn.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:26:43 -0500 From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mail-Followup-To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm still seeing the following in certain circumstances when accessing msdosfs filesystems: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system I know a fix was committed for this, and it mostly seems to work, but I have a program that can still invoke this warning consistently on my -current-as-of-10PM-last-night system. The program in question is the 'demo' program in the gltt-1.7 distribution as included with the MoonLight Creator source. I invoke the 'demo' program with: >gltt-1.7> ./demo /dos/c/WINDOWS/FONTS/ARIAL.TTF and I get the above message. After that, the file system is basically inaccessible. For example, if I try: >gltt-1.7> cat /dos/c/WINDOWS/FONTS/ARIAL.TTF cat will hang hard (unkillable), and top shows it in the 'pgtblk' state. I have tried to trace through it with gdb, but for some reason, the program just SIGSEGVs when trying to load the font if under gdb control :-/ Again, this is on my -current system, world and kernel built from sources cvsupped ~10PM EST last night. If anyone is interested in trying to reproduce this, the Moonlight Creator source can be found at: http://www.cybersociety.com/moonlight/ I have not seen this behaviour under any other circumstances. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:35:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12545 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:35:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12413; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:35:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03965; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:34:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803060334.WAA03965@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 5, 98 07:19:53 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:34:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro said: > > If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project > carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other > development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than > one person's weekend job. > > I'll take a piece of such effort. > I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working no-holds-barred on it right NOW. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:41:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13954 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:41:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13946; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id VAA05763; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:39:49 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id VAA00338; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:39:49 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980305213949.34502@mcs.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:39:49 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se Subject: Re: Donations. References: <199803060334.WAA03965@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199803060334.WAA03965@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Simon Shapiro said: > > > > If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project > > carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other > > development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than > > one person's weekend job. > > > > I'll take a piece of such effort. > > > I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working > no-holds-barred on it right NOW. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. Client and server? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:41:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14158 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:41:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14152 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:41:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA14867 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:41:02 -0800 (PST) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 2nd request: SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY! Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:41:02 -0800 Message-ID: <14863.889155662@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been deliberately staying out of the discussion for the last day or so out of a desire to see it either sputter to a halt or to redirect itself properly to -chat but this does not seem to be working. What's it going to take for folks to exercise a little self control and get the non-current relevant threads out of this mailing list? I simply cannot count the number of personal emails I've received from people plaintively wailing that the -current mailing list has turned into an ongoing bar fight and they're going to have to unsubscribe if the noise level does not abate. I don't want to start waving the Big Stick Of Mailing List Removal around, but if people continue to show that they are unable to control themselves when directly asked to do so (and in caps, no less), I'll have little choice but to start punting people off the mailing list. Please think before you post. Thank you. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:42:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14321 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:42:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14267 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:42:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04009; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:42:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803060342.WAA04009@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system In-Reply-To: <19980305222643.01401@scsn.net> from "Donald J. Maddox" at "Mar 5, 98 10:26:43 pm" To: dmaddox@scsn.net Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:42:03 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald J. Maddox said: > I'm still seeing the following in certain circumstances when > accessing msdosfs filesystems: > > vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system > Whomever has been doing the vnode_pager changes should likely fix the msdosfs also. I am now working on fixing NFS, and am totally swamped. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 19:46:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15282 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:46:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15277; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:46:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04042; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:46:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803060346.WAA04042@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <19980305213949.34502@mcs.net> from Karl Denninger at "Mar 5, 98 09:39:49 pm" To: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:46:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Karl Denninger said: > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > Simon Shapiro said: > > > > > > If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project > > > carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other > > > development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than > > > one person's weekend job. > > > > > > I'll take a piece of such effort. > > > > > I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working > > no-holds-barred on it right NOW. > > > > -- > > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > Client and server? > Mostly client. Server should be mostly a matter of fixing whatever recent breakage has happened. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:01:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16750 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:01:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mn26hp6.honeywell.com (mn26hp6.honeywell.com [129.30.4.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16710; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:01:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sleas@mn26hp6.honeywell.com) Received: from localhost by mn26hp6.honeywell.com with SMTP (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA240876821; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:00:21 -0600 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:00:21 -0600 (CST) From: Shawn Leas To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: Karl Denninger , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se, Jamie Novak Subject: NFS by Friday (Was Re: Donations.) In-Reply-To: <199803060346.WAA04042@dyson.iquest.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Good news! Consider this a heart felt thank you for your efforts. Let's be carefull to change the subject, though. I probably missed a bunch of -current relevant mails because I have been deleting the Re: Donations (as 90% of us have). Re: Donations has become all inclusive. That is to say, subthreads and spinoffs all have "Re: Donations" in the subject. Example: -------------------------------------------- From: El Phantasmo Subject: Re: Donations X-Mailer: Mozilla blah blah blah On Thur, 5 Mar 1998, Water Main Joe wrote: > While the mating habits of the African Spider monkey seem > To be unaffected, my point is... While that may be true, the lifespan of the banana slug is, and so too, is the color of tuesday, underwear spawn styrofoam the norful when flurbage garfs the noodle. Therefore, .... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Just trying to illustrate the importance of the Almighty subject line. Shawn On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > Karl Denninger said: > > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > Simon Shapiro said: SNIP > > > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > > > Client and server? > > > Mostly client. Server should be mostly a matter of fixing whatever recent > breakage has happened. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:05:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17625 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:05:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17594; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:05:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id VAA06296; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:57:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id VAA00550; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:57:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980305215754.02721@mcs.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:57:54 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se Subject: Re: Donations. References: <19980305213949.34502@mcs.net> <199803060346.WAA04042@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199803060346.WAA04042@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:46:30PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:46:30PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Karl Denninger said: > > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > Simon Shapiro said: > > > > > > > > If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project > > > > carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other > > > > development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than > > > > one person's weekend job. > > > > > > > > I'll take a piece of such effort. > > > > > > > I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working > > > no-holds-barred on it right NOW. > > > > > > -- > > > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > > > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > > > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > > > Client and server? > > > Mostly client. Server should be mostly a matter of fixing whatever recent > breakage has happened. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. I don't know if there has been any recent breakage.... does anyone else have any serious (ie: heavy-duty) experience in this area that can speak to whether the -CURRENT tree, as it exists now, is ok in the NFS server area? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:12:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19628 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA19432 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:11:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 7400 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Mar 1998 04:19:04 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803060334.WAA03965@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:19:03 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: Donations. Cc: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se, jak@cetlink.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: ... > I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am > working > no-holds-barred on it right NOW. Great! You see how great I am? I just have to mention it once and in two days it is done! :-)) Seriously, I think it is great. I have grown to know NFS means Network Failure systems. I hope I can re-learn the original meaning. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:28:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21736 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:28:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21729; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:28:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmaddox@scsn.net) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.43]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA66; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:44:26 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id WAA00735; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:48:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root) Message-ID: <19980305224833.53242@scsn.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:48:33 -0500 From: dmaddox@scsn.net (Donald J. Maddox) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mail-Followup-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980305222643.01401@scsn.net> <199803060342.WAA04009@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803060342.WAA04009@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:42:03PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:42:03PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Donald J. Maddox said: > > I'm still seeing the following in certain circumstances when > > accessing msdosfs filesystems: > > > > vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system > > > Whomever has been doing the vnode_pager changes should likely > fix the msdosfs also. I am now working on fixing NFS, and am > totally swamped. If I recall correctly, the fix in question was submitted by Terry, and committed by Michael Smith, so I expect one of them may want to take a look at it... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:30:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22199 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from home.dragondata.com (toasty@home.dragondata.com [204.137.237.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22143; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:29:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toasty@home.dragondata.com) Received: (from toasty@localhost) by home.dragondata.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA22909; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:29:28 -0600 (CST) From: Kevin Day Message-Id: <199803060429.WAA22909@home.dragondata.com> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <19980305215754.02721@mcs.net> from Karl Denninger at "Mar 5, 98 09:57:54 pm" To: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:29:10 -0600 (CST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I don't know if there has been any recent breakage.... does anyone else have > any serious (ie: heavy-duty) experience in this area that can speak to > whether the -CURRENT tree, as it exists now, is ok in the NFS server area? I've played with it a bit. nfsd under 2.2.5 is stable as a rock. nfsd under -current croaks under heavy load. Trying to backup my -current server over nfs to a slow tape drive can kill it, easily. Usually it's the 'console is still responsive, but all processes are hung.' situation. Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:38:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23458 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:38:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23446; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id WAA07934; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:38:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id WAA00975; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:38:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980305223825.29625@mcs.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:38:25 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Kevin Day Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se Subject: Re: Donations. References: <19980305215754.02721@mcs.net> <199803060429.WAA22909@home.dragondata.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199803060429.WAA22909@home.dragondata.com>; from Kevin Day on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:29:10PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:29:10PM -0600, Kevin Day wrote: > > I don't know if there has been any recent breakage.... does anyone else have > > any serious (ie: heavy-duty) experience in this area that can speak to > > whether the -CURRENT tree, as it exists now, is ok in the NFS server area? > > I've played with it a bit. > > nfsd under 2.2.5 is stable as a rock. > > nfsd under -current croaks under heavy load. > > Trying to backup my -current server over nfs to a slow tape drive can kill > it, easily. Usually it's the 'console is still responsive, but all processes > are hung.' situation. > > Kevin Hmmm... NFSD under -Current of about 11/20/97 is stable. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 20:39:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23683 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:39:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23633; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:39:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07688; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:38:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803060438.UAA07688@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Kevin Day cc: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger), dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:29:10 CST." <199803060429.WAA22909@home.dragondata.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:38:39 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > nfsd under -current croaks under heavy load. > > Trying to backup my -current server over nfs to a slow tape drive can kill > it, easily. Usually it's the 'console is still responsive, but all processes > are hung.' situation. > Can you post what the processes are waiting on? You know sometimes that may give a good clue to what is going on. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 23:02:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18316 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from helmholtz.salk.edu (helmholtz.salk.edu [198.202.70.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18249; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bartol@salk.edu) Received: from dale.salk.edu (dale [198.202.70.112]) by helmholtz.salk.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA14836; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:02:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:02:01 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Bartol To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: karl@mcs.net, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG, jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se Subject: -current NFS discussion In-Reply-To: <19980305215754.02721@mcs.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello John et al., Just to add my own observations of -current NFS... We run a mixture of unix platforms at our site (SunOS 4.1.3U1, IRIX 5.X and 6.X, Digital UNIX 4.0, Linux 2.X, FreeBSD 2.2.5 and -current) and our NFS server is an Auspex NS7000. I support -current on my own box here so that I can keep up-to-date with things and advise the rest of the lab on progress. My machine mounts the Auspex in NFSv3 mode at 100Mb/s across an ethernet switch. I have an Intel EtherExpress Pro 100b interface card. Stability of NFS has been shakey over the past several weeks so I keep having to fall back to the Feb 14 kernel I built. Although today's kernel (cvsupped the morning of March 5 PST) seems to be working fine so far (I believe the recent change to vfs_bio.c v1.153 on March 4 may be responsible for this for me). However, I am still experiencing (i.e. I've reported this before) an NFS-related problem with today's -current whereby if I use the the compat-linux gcc to compile source code located on an NFS mounted filesystem the resulting executable is defective and will not run. The same code compiles perfectly when located on a local filesystem. For some reason, trivially simple code (like hello_world) compiles fine even if across NFS but larger code fails. I have not been able to narrow down the point in complexity or file-size at which the problem creeps in but I'd say the evidence points at a problem in NFS still lurking in there. So, you may ask, why do I care about compiling Linux binaries on a FreeBSD box? Well, believe it or not, it's very useful to us because we make great use of Matlab (for which there is a Linux version but not a FreeBSD version) and we need to link in our own object code to operate within Matlab efficiently. Pretty twisted, I know, but it does work rather well (except for the NFS problem, that is). If I can be of help to supply more info on this problem please let me know. Many, many thanks, Tom On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Karl Denninger wrote: > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:46:30PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > Karl Denninger said: > > > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:34:43PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > Simon Shapiro said: > > > > > > > > > > If NFS is important, then let's stabilize what we do, plan the project > > > > > carefully, divide the work up and do it. This will mean putting all other > > > > > development into priority-1-fixes-only until NFS is done. It is more than > > > > > one person's weekend job. > > > > > > > > > > I'll take a piece of such effort. > > > > > > > > > I think that you'll be pretty happy with NFS by Fri night :-). I am working > > > > no-holds-barred on it right NOW. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > > > > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > > > > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > > > > > Client and server? > > > > > Mostly client. Server should be mostly a matter of fixing whatever recent > > breakage has happened. > > > > -- > > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > I don't know if there has been any recent breakage.... does anyone else have > any serious (ie: heavy-duty) experience in this area that can speak to > whether the -CURRENT tree, as it exists now, is ok in the NFS server area? > > -- > -- > Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin > http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems > Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS > Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 23:18:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25110 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:18:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25035 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:18:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@cain.gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA16103 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:45:34 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199803060715.RAA16103@cain.gsoft.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: utmp problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:45:34 +1030 From: "Daniel O'Connor" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id XAA25065 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I think my utmp file is being corrupted.. Sometimes when I run w or who, they work OK, but other times it gives corrupt output - eg [holly 5:49pm] ~> w 5:49PM up 4 days, 21:21, 1 user, load averages: 0.14, 0.63, 0.92 USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT «¢þ4 - 01Jan70 15:49 - I can't pinpoint _when_ it misbehaves, which is pretty useless :) I was just wondering if any one has seen this problem before. --------------------------------------------------------------------- |Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software | |http://www.gsoft.com.au | |The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to| |choose from. -- Andrew Tanenbaum | --------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Thu Mar 5 23:57:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07335 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:57:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pop.uniserve.com (pop.uniserve.com [204.244.156.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA07314 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:57:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@uniserve.com) Received: from shell.uniserve.com [204.244.186.218] by pop.uniserve.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #4) id 0yArk0-0000YB-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:40:24 -0800 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:40:20 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: "Daniel O'Connor" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: utmp problem In-Reply-To: <199803060715.RAA16103@cain.gsoft.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > I can't pinpoint _when_ it misbehaves, which is pretty useless :) > I was just wondering if any one has seen this problem before. See the archives for lots of reports of this. You have some old software which is screwing it up. The username length was changed from 8 to 16 a long time ago, and unfortunately, due to the silly way wtmp/utmp is handled, all software which touches these files needs to be re-compiled. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 00:22:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12536 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:22:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050ndd.san.rr.com (root@dt050ndd.san.rr.com [204.210.31.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12520; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (dougdougdougdoug@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050ndd.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01925; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:22:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <34FFB236.8D7D93F1@san.rr.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 00:22:14 -0800 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE-0303 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2nd request: SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY! References: <14863.889155662@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > What's it going to take for folks to exercise a little self control > and get the non-current relevant threads out of this mailing list? Majordomo 1.94.4 (the latest) has a feature called "taboo headers" which I've found to be a marvelous tool when it comes to managing problems like this. I agree that it should not be necessary, but sometimes posts to the wrong list that just "go away" and never appear are a good wake up call. :) Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 01:22:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20068 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:22:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA20063 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:22:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07345 for current@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:22:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803060922.EAA07345@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Making good progress on NFS!!! To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:22:19 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FYI, I am making good progress, finding lots of "good" (relatively minor, but can cause sporadic) problems in both NFS (getpages, putpages) and with our UFS getpages code. Also, I have a prelim fix for the MS_INVALIDATE problem alluded to by Ron Minnich. New things include more dynamic sensing of sequential fault behavior (the hooks have been there for a few years, but just haven't implemented them until now.) That has come virtually for free as a result of desperately needed cleanups in ffs_getpages. I expect my commits to happen on Fri night, and I would appreciate help in testing the changes. I will have "tested" them, but there is nothing like verifying proper behavior on a real system. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 01:26:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20703 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:26:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from helios.dnttm.ru (root@dnttm-gw.rssi.ru [193.232.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA20679; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by helios.dnttm.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/IP-3) with UUCP id MAA23329; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:21:36 +0300 Received: from tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01918; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:30:29 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Message-Id: <199803060930.MAA01918@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: dmaddox@scsn.net cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:48:33 EST." <19980305224833.53242@scsn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:30:29 +0300 From: Dmitrij Tejblum Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald J. Maddox wrote: > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:42:03PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > Donald J. Maddox said: > > > I'm still seeing the following in certain circumstances when > > > accessing msdosfs filesystems: > > > > > > vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system > > > > > Whomever has been doing the vnode_pager changes should likely > > fix the msdosfs also. I am now working on fixing NFS, and am > > totally swamped. > > If I recall correctly, the fix in question was submitted by Terry, and > committed by Michael Smith, so I expect one of them may want to take a > look at it... Not quite so. The breakage was introduced by Terry in this commit. Now he made a patch to fix the remaining filesystems, but the patch was not committed. These changes completely break my "aesthetic principles", and I started to argue. Then the weekend was finished, I lost the free time.... So --- sorry, I feel I lose due to timeout... On other hand, there is a new weekend soon... :) Anyway, arguing with Terry is not a big fun... Dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 01:38:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21938 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:38:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA21896; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:37:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28763; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:35:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803060935.BAA28763@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Dmitrij Tejblum cc: dmaddox@scsn.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:30:29 +0300." <199803060930.MAA01918@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 01:35:17 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system > > Not quite so. The breakage was introduced by Terry in this commit. Now he > made a patch to fix the remaining filesystems, but the patch was not > committed. These changes completely break my "aesthetic principles", and > I started to argue. Then the weekend was finished, I lost the free > time.... So --- sorry, I feel I lose due to timeout... On other hand, > there is a new weekend soon... :) Anyway, arguing with Terry is not a big > fun... I'm committing the patch, cosmetics ignored, just to fix the breakage introduced. I would ask that you continue your discussions with Terry et. al. in order to ensure that the ultimate conclusion(s) you reach are implemented rather than being lost in the noise. BTW, did you get anywhere with that "mount fails, remount explodes" problem? Thanks! -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 02:04:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25371 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:04:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA25340 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03453 for current@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:04:37 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from sos) Message-Id: <199803061004.LAA03453@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Why should grep be compiled with -g ?? To: current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:04:37 +0100 (MET) From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just stumpled over this, and this is what cvs says: revision 1.11 date: 1997/12/21 19:15:02; author: wosch; state: Exp; lines: +5 -1 When called as `zgrep', the -Z argument is assumed. Make a link from zgrep to grep. I does not mention why it should be compiled with debug on ?????? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 02:22:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27879 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:22:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from helios.dnttm.ru (root@dnttm-gw.rssi.ru [193.232.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27868; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:22:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by helios.dnttm.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/IP-3) with UUCP id NAA24530; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:14:46 +0300 Received: from tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02635; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:23:14 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Message-Id: <199803061023.NAA02635@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Mike Smith cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 01:35:17 PST." <199803060935.BAA28763@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 13:23:14 +0300 From: Dmitrij Tejblum Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > BTW, did you get anywhere with that "mount fails, remount explodes" > problem? > Ummm, take a look at PR kern/5904, especially Bruce's reply. It actually looks like John Dyson's area... Dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 02:54:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA01174 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:54:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA01145 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:53:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27828; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:54:28 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:54:28 +0100 (CET) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Tom cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: utmp problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Tom wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > > I can't pinpoint _when_ it misbehaves, which is pretty useless :) > > I was just wondering if any one has seen this problem before. > > See the archives for lots of reports of this. > > You have some old software which is screwing it up. The username length > was changed from 8 to 16 a long time ago, and unfortunately, due to the > silly way wtmp/utmp is handled, all software which touches these files > needs to be re-compiled. I have experienced the same problem, and it was really hard to tell what was causing it - then after loooong time of spying around I found an old version of xterm... :-) Andrzej Bialecki ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- abial@warman.org.pl | if(halt_per_mth > 0) { fetch("http://www.freebsd.org") } Research & Academic | "Be open-minded, but don't let your brains to fall out." Network in Poland | All of the above (and more) is just my personal opinion. ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 07:52:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10249 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:52:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10236 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:52:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26033; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:49:08 GMT (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199803061549.PAA26033@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:24:26 GMT." <3503ee97.43278373@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 15:49:07 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:21 -0800 (PST), Brian Handy > wrote: > > >But this childish crap about "I'm only donating if you do XXX with > >my money" is dumb. > > No, that's an ultimatum and I never proposed that. I proposed that I > have a vote. My vote would be collected with all the other votes and > the collective vote would determine the funded projects. If my > project does survive the vote, I accept that as part of the voting > process, without asking for my money back. You already have a vote, and it's FREE like the rest of the project. Your vote is cast on -hackers, discussed and decided upon. Once the decision is made, you can then reach into your pocket to fund that decision if it's not going to be actioned as soon as you want. Lots of people have already pointed out that the difference between the FreeBSDs and the Microsofts of this world is due to guy that makes the decisions. This doesn't *have* to be the guy holding the purse strings. > -- > Browser war over, Mozilla now free. -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 08:27:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13362 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:27:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13354; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:26:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803061626.IAA13354@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: 2nd request: SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY! In-Reply-To: <34FFB236.8D7D93F1@san.rr.com> from Studded at "Mar 6, 98 00:22:14 am" To: Studded@san.rr.com (Studded) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:26:58 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Studded wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > What's it going to take for folks to exercise a little self control > > and get the non-current relevant threads out of this mailing list? > > Majordomo 1.94.4 (the latest) has a feature called "taboo headers" > which I've found to be a marvelous tool when it comes to managing > problems like this. I agree that it should not be necessary, but > sometimes posts to the wrong list that just "go away" and never appear > are a good wake up call. :) yes it does.....taboo headers and taboo body...which i use to filter spam. i am reluctant to use for any other purpose. this thread is hte best reason to use it to kill mail that i have seen to date ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 12:12:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17989 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:12:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from solaris.matti.ee (root@solaris.matti.ee [194.126.98.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17983 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:11:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vallo@matti.ee) Received: from localhost (vallo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by solaris.matti.ee (8.8.8/8.8.8.s) with SMTP id WAA10102 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:11:28 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:11:27 +0200 (EET) From: Vallo Kallaste X-Sender: vallo@solaris To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: current reboots frequently after vidcontrol Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello ! I have some problems with current. After logging into system there are some commands in my .cshrc file. Looks like command at the end of my .cshrc file: mixer mic 0:0 mixer cd 0:0 /usr/sbin/vidcontrol -m on /usr/sbin/vidcontrol VGA_80x30 causes sometimes immediate reboot. I say sometimes because this is not a rule, but if I remove vidcontrol VGA_80x30 of my .cshrc reboots leave off. There are no coredump or messages on the console, only fast and dirty reboot. Must I send a pr ? Maybe some comments are helpful if I do something wrong which causes that thing. Thanks Vallo Kallaste vallo@matti.ee To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 13:00:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24559 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:00:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1562.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24480 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:00:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA00198; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:57:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:57:27 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Brian Somers cc: John Kelly , Brian Handy , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <199803061549.PAA26033@awfulhak.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Brian Somers wrote: > Lots of people have already pointed out that the difference between > the FreeBSDs and the Microsofts of this world is due to guy that > makes the decisions. This doesn't *have* to be the guy holding the We don't make decisions. We discover what they should be. :) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 17:55:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01167 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:55:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01161; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:55:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00386; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:55:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd000364; Fri Mar 6 18:55:00 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA27728; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:54:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803070154.SAA27728@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system To: dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (Dmitrij Tejblum) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:54:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dmaddox@scsn.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803060930.MAA01918@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> from "Dmitrij Tejblum" at Mar 6, 98 12:30:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Whomever has been doing the vnode_pager changes should likely > > > fix the msdosfs also. I am now working on fixing NFS, and am > > > totally swamped. > > > > If I recall correctly, the fix in question was submitted by Terry, and > > committed by Michael Smith, so I expect one of them may want to take a > > look at it... > > Not quite so. The breakage was introduced by Terry in this commit. Now he > made a patch to fix the remaining filesystems, but the patch was not > committed. The patches being discussed are at: http://www.freebsd.org/~terry/D.GP.REST > These changes completely break my "aesthetic principles", and > I started to argue. Then the weekend was finished, I lost the free > time.... So --- sorry, I feel I lose due to timeout... On other hand, > there is a new weekend soon... :) Anyway, arguing with Terry is not a big > fun... I'm willing to discuss (not argue) the design. The reason I went the way I did was that putting the vnode_pager.c code in the defaultops vector does nothing toward making the code in vnode_pager.c _go away_, which is the eventual goal. FS's which can act as backing store need to have FS specific backing store management, for a large variety of reasons (I can enumerate these reasons again, if you need me to). A secondary reason is that it means I have to make special code in stacking FS's in order to be able to access the bypass (which I think should be placed in the defaultops vector instead). I think this is bad because I think that FS stacking layers are going to vastly outnumber local media FS's in the near future, providing we can get the code to make them work committed for people to use as a foundation for their own hacking. I personally have three that I'd like to see done, and other people have approached me about cryptography, compression, NFS anonymous mount/WebNFS exposure via "//nfs/...", the same thing for FTP, ACL's, and other stuff so wierd even I think it's strange to want. A tertiary reason is that if the code is in the defaultops vector, I can't know when it becomes safe to remove from vnode_pager.c and the defaultops vector. There's no way to measure usage of the defaultops code (that's kind of the point, really). I don't think you've "lost by timeout", but by the same token, you've failed to make a compelling case why putting it in the defaultops is not ill-advised. Like I said, I'm open to discussion on all of this; lately, I've found a granularity where I've been on a roll, and nothing would squelch that faster than a set of badly thought out patches. It's in my best interests to listen to what you have to say. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Fri Mar 6 19:10:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11357 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:10:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.91.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11352 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:10:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA07798 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:06:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:06:51 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GCC-2.8.0 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, i've had a couple problems with this. I've tried it both on my own, and with the new ports package that was jsut made. A. FYI, GCC-2.8.1 is out. B. The ports package is configuring it as i386-unknown-freebsd3.0 instead of i386-freebsd. Or does this not matter? C. Gcc works fine. G++ (and any version of g++ other than the one from the contrib dir's gcc) won't work, it reports "/usr/lib/crt0.o: Undefined reference to function _main in .text" What does this mean? I've recompiled and reinstalled crt0.o with the new compiler, no luck. Of course, as mentioned, no matter what i do, the g++ from the contrib dir always works. --Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 05:25:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06898 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 05:25:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06893 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 05:25:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11722 for current@freebsd.org; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:25:46 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199803071325.IAA11722@hda.hda.com> Subject: cross platform system call table To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:25:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Does anyone have a tabulation of the system calls for Linux, BSDi, NetBSD etc? If so could you either "man 9" it or send it to me and I'll do that. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 09:51:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28637 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:51:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.giovannelli.it (www.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28631 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:50:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from giovannelli.it (modem00.masternet.it [194.184.65.254]) by www.giovannelli.it (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10462 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:55:15 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3501899E.734FA9E7@giovannelli.it> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 18:53:34 +0100 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: makeworld fails : cvsup 980304 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --- cron --- cc -nostdinc -O -pipe -DLOGIN_CAP -I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include -o cron cron.o database.o do_command.o job.o user.o popen.o -lutil cron.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_cron_uid' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_cron_cwd' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_close' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_debug_flags' referenced from text segment database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text segmen t do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_mkprints' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_first_word' referenced from text segment do_command.o: More undefined symbol _log_it refs follow user.o: Undefined symbol `_free_entry' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_init' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_load_env' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_load_entry' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_set' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_free' referenced from text segment *** Error code 1 1 error *** Error code 2 1 error *** Error code 2 1 error *** Error code 2 1 error *** Error code 2 1 error *** Error code 2 1 error -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 10:04:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29753 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:04:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.giovannelli.it (www.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29748 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:04:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from giovannelli.it (modem00.masternet.it [194.184.65.254]) by www.giovannelli.it (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00176 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:08:55 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <35018CD1.523E0EC@giovannelli.it> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:07:13 +0100 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makeworld fails : cvsup 980304 References: <3501899E.734FA9E7@giovannelli.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: Ops sorry it have to be cvsup 980307 , because today is 7th even if my clock continues to think it is the 4th :-) -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 12:51:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14793 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:51:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14787 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00448 for current@freebsd.org; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:51:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803072051.PAA00448@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Warning, Will Robinson!!! To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:51:04 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am committing some upgrades to VM, VFS and NFS behaviors. I'll send a note to -current when I have verified and tested the resultant commits. (The changes aren't all that dangerous, but I want to make sure that no-one tries to test something that might be mistaken committage :-).) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 14:57:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23888 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:57:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23880 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:57:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02792 for current@freebsd.org; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:56:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803072256.RAA02792@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:56:58 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have committed all of my pending NFS, VFS and VM fixes. The regression tests have been run, and the system has run nicely with my normal load and an artifically high load. Please give me feedback ASAP, so that I can fix problems ASAP!!! :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 15:48:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29113 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:48:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from helios.dnttm.ru (root@dnttm-gw.rssi.ru [193.232.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA29103 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by helios.dnttm.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/IP-3) with UUCP id CAA32087; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:45:10 +0300 Received: from tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02807; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:54:05 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from dima@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru) Message-Id: <199803072354.CAA02807@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 01:54:55 GMT." <199803070154.SAA27728@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 02:54:05 +0300 From: Dmitrij Tejblum Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > The reason I went the way I did was that putting the vnode_pager.c > code in the defaultops vector does nothing toward making the code > in vnode_pager.c _go away_, which is the eventual goal. Your changes do same nothing toward this goal. Everyone can insert a function into a vnops table. It is trivial. Almost nobody can write a real getpages or putpages routine. For example, you failed even to write a readonly cd9660_putpages, while it would be, apparently, trivial. (I suspect, simple 'return (VM_PAGER_BAD);' would do a right thing.) You also failed to mention this problem in your standard comment. So, when real implementation for getpages and putpages for all these filesystem will written? Filesystem-specific getpages/putpages possible since end of 1995. You saved a filesystem writer from writing 7 obvious lines of each implementations (even these lines contain style bugs, so actual number is slightly less). Is this the big win? > FS's which > can act as backing store need to have FS specific backing store > management, A problem is that every leaf filesystem with 'regular' files may be asked to act as backing store. For example, try cmp /proc/1/map /proc/curproc/map After you 'fix' getpages on procfs with your usual method, you will notice that procfs does not implement VOP_STRATEGY. (and that pfs_type is not a string, like procfs_print thinks). But why something ever try to call STRATEGY on procfs? Because procfs implement BMAP in some 'specific' way. This serves as a little example of usefulness of some filesystem-specific code. > for a large variety of reasons (I can enumerate these > reasons again, if you need me to). Well, actually I don't know any reasons for it, other than reference to John Dyson's authority and complexity of the generic code. So it would be interesting. But it is outside of scope of this discussion. > A secondary reason is that it means I have to make special code in > stacking FS's in order to be able to access the bypass (which I think > should be placed in the defaultops vector instead). I am not sure if I can parse this. Anyway, I claim that my way has exactly same results as your in this aspect. From point of view of a stacking layer, the filesystem below provide a getpages/putpages implementation, and this is all that you want. Also you want that you will get a warning if your stacking layer does not bypass or implement the getpages/putpages correctly. Then make vop_nogetpages and vop_noputpages, which will print the warning and the bad vnode and return VM_PAGER_BAD (which is at least a correct getpages/putpages return value, unlike EOPNOTSUPP), and put vop_stdgetpages and vop_stdputpages to vnops table of affected local medial file systems. > [...] > > A tertiary reason is that if the code is in the defaultops vector, > I can't know when it becomes safe to remove from vnode_pager.c > and the defaultops vector. There's no way to measure usage of > the defaultops code (that's kind of the point, really). OK, don't put it to defaultops vector, put vop_stdgetpages and vop_stdputpages to vnops table of every affected filesystem. I suggest it in every mail on this topic :-). One may say that my complains are more about decorative issues that about real programming issues. Sorry. It is because all discussing changes actually more decorative than real code. And as decorative, they are IMHO bad. Also, unfortunately, most points in this discussion were repeated several times... Dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:02:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00782 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:02:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00777 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:02:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15064; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:02:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA05223; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:02:48 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:02:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199803080002.RAA05223@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Dmitrij Tejblum Cc: Terry Lambert , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vnode_pager: *** WARNING *** stale FS code in system In-Reply-To: <199803072354.CAA02807@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> References: <199803070154.SAA27728@usr09.primenet.com> <199803072354.CAA02807@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As a complete newbie to this, let me see if I can inject my thoughts into this. Terry wants FS implementors (therefore all FS's) to explicitly write code for vnode_pagers, rather than having the (potentially buggy) code used by FS writers. Dima wants people to not have write potentially trivial code into their FS, but give them a default that will work in most cases. Terry claims that if they rely on the trivial code, it could cause bugs. Dima claims that for most existing FS's, the trivial stuff is good enough for their purposes, and that any FS developer that isn't writing a trivial FS already is smart enough to write a non-default vnode_pager implementation. Terry claims that this vnode_pager stuff should go away, and it'll be easier to remove it by making sure that all FS's have this code, but then he loses me from that point on. Is everything I said up to this point true for the most part? If so, I've gotta agree with Dima here. Anyone silly enough to write FS's should know what they're doing, and forcing them to write more boilerplate code that could be done by default is simply silliness. If you're smart enough to write FS, you should also be smart enough to figure out when the defaults won't cut it. This is the intent of stacking FS's as I understand. The VFS stuff is intended to make FS design more OOP, so that you can pick what things you need to implement, and not have to implement others, just like object inheritence. Tell me what I'm missing, if anything? Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:04:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00946 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00929 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:04:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03875; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:00:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karpen) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199803080000.BAA03875@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use In-Reply-To: <199803072256.RAA02792@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 7, 98 05:56:58 pm" To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:00:17 +0100 (CET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to John S. Dyson: > I have committed all of my pending NFS, VFS and VM fixes. The regression > tests have been run, and the system has run nicely with my normal load and > an artifically high load. Well, not really feedback, I'm affraid. However, when I read your commit messages, I thought of something. At out computer society we have a Sun with a presto card (I think... Battery backed write cache for the scsi chain, or something). That made a big difference when handling NFS writes. Even with a pretty nifty FreeBSD machine it was hard to keep up with the write speeds we saw on the Sun, IIRC. Now, ofcourse, the Sun was cheating and using "UPSed cache", so it could write to memory and return that everything went well even before the first byte hit the disk. So, we have to ask ourselfs how to "cheat right back"? Which leads to my question... Would tuning the NFS exported disk SoftUpdates do a significant difference? For the moment I don't think we're ready to use the SoftUpdates code, since we're using the machine for more then just play, but it might be an interesting thing to try once it's more robust. /Mikael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:12:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02196 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:12:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02190 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:12:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00282; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:12:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803080012.TAA00282@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use In-Reply-To: <199803080000.BAA03875@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "Mar 8, 98 01:00:17 am" To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:12:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikael Karpberg said: > > Would tuning the NFS exported disk SoftUpdates do a significant difference? > Yes. > > For the moment I don't think we're ready to use the SoftUpdates code, since > we're using the machine for more then just play, but it might be an > interesting thing to try once it's more robust. > It probably isn't a good idea to use softupdates in production yet. However, another interesting thing to try is: sysctl -w vfs.nfs.async=1 on the server. This is better (safer) than softupdates, but you *can* have data lossage, due to writes not being committed to disk. It is a good idea to have a UPS when using the above option. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:25:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03903 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:25:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03896 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:25:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bde@godzilla.zeta.org.au) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21092; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:23:53 +1100 Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:23:53 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199803080023.LAA21092@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG, gmarco@giovannelli.it Subject: Re: makeworld fails : cvsup 980304 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >--- cron --- >cc -nostdinc -O -pipe -DLOGIN_CAP -I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include >-o cron >cron.o database.o do_command.o job.o user.o popen.o -lutil >cron.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text >segment ... Fixed. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:33:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04951 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:33:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04944; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:32:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03950; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:28:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karpen) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199803080028.BAA03950@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use In-Reply-To: <199803080012.TAA00282@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 7, 98 07:12:31 pm" To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:28:51 +0100 (CET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to John S. Dyson: > Mikael Karpberg said: > > > > Would tuning the NFS exported disk SoftUpdates do a significant difference? > Yes. > > For the moment I don't think we're ready to use the SoftUpdates code, since > > we're using the machine for more then just play, but it might be an > > interesting thing to try once it's more robust. > > > It probably isn't a good idea to use softupdates in production yet. However, > another interesting thing to try is: > > sysctl -w vfs.nfs.async=1 > > on the server. This is better (safer) than softupdates, but you *can* > have data lossage, due to writes not being committed to disk. It is > a good idea to have a UPS when using the above option. We certainly don't have a UPS. What exactly does turning on that sysctl mean? That we can get an inconsistant state on the disk, like with mount option async, or that writes are ACKed (or whatever you call it) directly, and then queued for a normal write to the disk according to the disks mount options? The latter would mean nothing except data loss at a crash, I guess, and that doesn't seem so bad, since data written the second a crash or power outage happens is still pretty much doomed. And how is it better then SoftUpdates? Because it's not using beta-release code, or are SoftUpdates a looser here for some other reason? /Mikael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 16:59:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07655 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:59:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07646; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:59:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00326; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:59:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803080059.TAA00326@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use In-Reply-To: <199803080028.BAA03950@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "Mar 8, 98 01:28:51 am" To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:58:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikael Karpberg said: > > We certainly don't have a UPS. > What exactly does turning on that sysctl mean? That we can get an > inconsistant state on the disk, like with mount option async, or that > writes are ACKed (or whatever you call it) directly, and then queued for > a normal write to the disk according to the disks mount options? > It is just like a normal write, violating NFS sematics, but will work just like a regular file write according to filesystem methods. > > And how is it better then SoftUpdates? Because it's not using beta-release > code, or are SoftUpdates a looser here for some other reason? > It isn't ready for production yet. SoftUpdates is better -async, but still not as data-secure as normal mounts. I suggest waiting until late March or early April. The code is probably late Alpha or near-Beta quality, with some known problems. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 19:23:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19071 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:23:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19064; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:23:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id EAA04275; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 04:15:11 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id DAA11117; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 03:23:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980308032320.28998@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 03:23:20 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Satoshi Asami , jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: new package building machine ( was Re: FreeBSD Fund ) References: <12360.888965506@time.cdrom.com> <199803040203.SAA29686@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199803040203.SAA29686@vader.cs.berkeley.edu>; from Satoshi Asami on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 06:03:41PM -0800 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 06:03:41PM -0800, Satoshi Asami wrote: > * From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > > * up. I've already ordered Satoshi & crew a really nice package > * building machine which should be here Friday and I guess I'll spend > > Thank you very much. That would certainly help a lot. :) Great ! ;-) -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 19:59:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22957 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:59:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22948 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:59:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id EAA08208 for current@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 04:45:08 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id EAA00684; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 04:35:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980308043552.02922@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 04:35:52 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: -current hangs with rand_irqs="5 9 11" enabled Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi ! The machine hangs when booting with rand_irqs="5 9 11" # Stir the entropy pool (like "5 11" or NO). enabled. The last message I see on the screen is: Entropy IRQ's: 5 The kernel is compiled with -O2 It's current of now ... Copyright (c) 1992-1998 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 8 04:20:15 CET 1998 root@titan.klemm.gtn.com:/home/data/sys.bisdn/compile/BISDNSMP Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz cost 3493 ns CPU: Pentium Pro (686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x619 Stepping=9 Features=0xfbff real memory = 83886080 (81920K bytes) avail memory = 78712832 (76868K bytes) FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard cpu0 (BSP): apic id: 1, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 cpu1 (AP): apic id: 0, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 io0 (APIC): apic id: 2, version: 0x00170011, at 0xfec00000 Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x02 on pci0.0.0 chip1: rev 0x01 on pci0.7.0 vx0: <3COM 3C900 Etherlink XL PCI> rev 0x00 int a irq 19 on pci0.11.0 utp/aui/bnc[*utp*] address 00:60:97:aa:3a:db vga0: rev 0x01 int a irq 18 on pci0.12.0 ahc0: rev 0x00 int a irq 17 on pci0.13.0 ahc0: aic7880 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16/255 SCBs scbus0 at ahc0 bus 0 ahc0: target 0 Tagged Queuing Device sd0 at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0: Direct-Access 2063MB (4226725 512 byte sectors) sd0: with 6703 cyls, 5 heads, and an average 126 sectors/track st0 at scbus0 target 4 lun 0 st0: type 1 removable SCSI 2 st0: Sequential-Access density code 0x0, 512-byte blocks, write-enabled cd0 at scbus0 target 6 lun 0 cd0: type 5 removable SCSI 2 cd0: CD-ROM cd present [40472 x 2048 byte records] ahc1: rev 0x03 int a irq 16 on pci0.14.0 ahc1: aic7870 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16/255 SCBs scbus1 at ahc1 bus 0 ahc1: target 1 Tagged Queuing Device sd1 at scbus1 target 1 lun 0 sd1: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1: Direct-Access 2063MB (4226725 512 byte sectors) sd1: with 6703 cyls, 5 heads, and an average 126 sectors/track ahc1: target 2 Tagged Queuing Device sd2 at scbus1 target 2 lun 0 sd2: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd2: Direct-Access 2063MB (4226725 512 byte sectors) sd2: with 6703 cyls, 5 heads, and an average 126 sectors/track Probing for PnP devices: Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <4 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 at 0x280-0x29f irq 10 maddr 0xd0000 msize 16384 on isa ed0: address 00:00:c0:5a:98:2a, type WD8013EPC (16 bit) sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x20 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface psm0 at 0x60-0x64 irq 12 on motherboard psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 pcm0 at 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x15 on isa fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in tel0 at 0xd80 irq 9 on isa tel0: card type Teles S0/16.3 npx0 flags 0x1 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface joy0 at 0x201 on isa joy0: joystick APIC_IO: routing 8254 via 8259 on pin 0 ccd0-3: Concatenated disk drivers IP packet filtering initialized, divert enabled, default to accept, logging limited to 100 packets/entry changing root device to sd0a SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched! vx0: selected bnc. (link1) Assigned: TEI = 0xbb = 93 -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 20:04:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23384 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:04:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gjp.erols.com (alex-va-n008c243.moon.jic.com [206.156.18.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23379; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:04:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) Received: from gjp.erols.com (localhost.erols.com [127.0.0.1]) by gjp.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02654; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:04:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:58:59 EST." <199803080059.TAA00326@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 23:04:49 -0500 Message-ID: <2649.889329889@gjp.erols.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "John S. Dyson" wrote in message ID <199803080059.TAA00326@dyson.iquest.net>: > It isn't ready for production yet. SoftUpdates is better -async, but still > not as data-secure as normal mounts. I suggest waiting until late March or > early April. The code is probably late Alpha or near-Beta quality, with > some known problems. Apart from the problems with using Async & SoftUpdates together, what other `known' problems are there? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 20:34:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25445 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:34:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.ultracom.net (mail.ultracom.net [207.86.154.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25440 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from quik@ultracom.net) Received: from uart ([207.86.154.210]) by mail.ultracom.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40194U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA148 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:48:56 -0500 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:29:39 -0500 (EST) From: quiksilver X-Sender: quik@uart To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ATAPI Zip Drive In-Reply-To: <19980308043552.02922@klemm.gtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG How do you mount an ATAPI Zip drive? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 20:35:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25567 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:35:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailman.cs.ucla.edu (Mailman.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.128.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25561 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:35:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@lancelot.cs.ucla.edu) Received: from lancelot.cs.ucla.edu (lancelot.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.96.194]) by mailman.cs.ucla.edu (8.8.8/UCLACS-4.0) with ESMTP id UAA25528 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by lancelot.cs.ucla.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12225 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:35:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:35:29 -0800 (PST) From: Sir Lancelot Message-Id: <199803080435.UAA12225@lancelot.cs.ucla.edu> To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: cvsup kernel from 3:30pm this afternoon (w/Dyson's new stuff) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Highly unstable. No panics -- yet. Lots of things (xterm, cron, sendmail, xconsole, xload, to name a few) just spontaneously combust with sig 11's. Currently attempting to rebuild world, but not sure with what success. -scooter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 20:57:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27712 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:57:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from runner.utsa.edu (runner.jpl.utsa.edu [129.115.50.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA27706 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:57:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ferovick@runner.jpl.utsa.edu) Received: by runner.utsa.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AB20291; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:03:09 -0600 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:03:09 -0600 (CST) From: David C Ferovick Subject: cvsup and missing makefiles To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've noticed when I cvsup some things it misses files. For example cvsup stable-supfile while in /usr/src/share/examples/cvsup runs ok, but when I make world I get an error. I check on the error and I find /usr/src/contrib/Makefile is not out there. I thought cvsup was supposed to check to see if these files exist and add them if they dont? I'm asking on -current because I figured this was where people had the most experience with cvsup and source trees :) Dave Ferovick (dferovic@ringer.cs.utsa.edu) (ferovick@runner.jpl.utsa.edu) UTSA Comp. Sci Major and ocassional sax player To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:06:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28575 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:06:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28555 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:05:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id QAA10763; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:06:00 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803080506.QAA10763@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: cvsup and missing makefiles In-Reply-To: from David C Ferovick at "Mar 7, 98 11:03:09 pm" To: ferovick@runner (David C Ferovick) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:05:59 +1100 (EST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David C Ferovick wrote: > I've noticed when I cvsup some things it misses files. > For example cvsup stable-supfile while in /usr/src/share/examples/cvsup > runs ok, but when I make world I get an error. I check on the error and > I find /usr/src/contrib/Makefile is not out there. The src/contrib part of the tree is referenced by other parts of the tree. You never build it directly. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:14:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29361 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:14:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29352; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:14:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00809; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:14:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803080514.AAA00809@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use In-Reply-To: <2649.889329889@gjp.erols.com> from Gary Palmer at "Mar 7, 98 11:04:49 pm" To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG (Gary Palmer) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:14:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gary Palmer said: > "John S. Dyson" wrote in message ID > <199803080059.TAA00326@dyson.iquest.net>: > > It isn't ready for production yet. SoftUpdates is better -async, but still > > not as data-secure as normal mounts. I suggest waiting until late March or > > early April. The code is probably late Alpha or near-Beta quality, with > > some known problems. > > Apart from the problems with using Async & SoftUpdates together, what > other `known' problems are there? > There have still been some crashes. Don't use it in production until we have tested it enough. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:18:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29854 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:18:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29848 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:18:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00837; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:18:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803080518.AAA00837@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: cvsup kernel from 3:30pm this afternoon (w/Dyson's new stuff) In-Reply-To: <199803080435.UAA12225@lancelot.cs.ucla.edu> from Sir Lancelot at "Mar 7, 98 08:35:29 pm" To: root@lancelot.cs.ucla.edu (Sir Lancelot) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:18:12 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sir Lancelot said: > > Highly unstable. No panics -- yet. Lots of things (xterm, cron, sendmail, > xconsole, xload, to name a few) just spontaneously combust with sig 11's. > Currently attempting to rebuild world, but not sure with what success. > I just started manifesting some problems myself. I am working on it. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:25:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01207 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:25:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01198 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:25:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA16894; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:25:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA06378; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:25:00 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:25:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199803080525.WAA06378@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: David C Ferovick Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvsup and missing makefiles In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I've noticed when I cvsup some things it misses files. > For example cvsup stable-supfile while in /usr/src/share/examples/cvsup > runs ok, but when I make world I get an error. I check on the error and > I find /usr/src/contrib/Makefile is not out there. That's because there is no Makefile in /usr/src/contrib. > I thought cvsup was supposed to check to see if these files exist and add > them if they dont? It does, if such files exist. > I'm asking on -current because I figured this was where people had the > most experience with cvsup and source trees :) Huh? Stable people use CVSup the same as -current people. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:34:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03089 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:34:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03065 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:34:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA17986 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:04:15 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA06493; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:04:15 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980308160414.03591@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:04:14 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD current users Subject: Cron breaks badly in today's -current Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So, after John said that -current was worth testing again, I supped and started a make world. It got as far as cron: cc -O -DLOGIN_CAP -o cron cron.o database.o do_command.o job.o user.o popen.o -lutil cron.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_cron_uid' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_cron_cwd' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_log_close' referenced from text segment cron.o: Undefined symbol `_set_debug_flags' referenced from text segment database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment database.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_acquire_daemonlock' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_mkprints' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_log_it' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_env_get' referenced from text segment do_command.o: Undefined symbol `_first_word' referenced from text segment do_command.o: More undefined symbol _log_it refs follow user.o: Undefined symbol `_free_entry' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_init' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_load_env' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_load_entry' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_set' referenced from text segment user.o: Undefined symbol `_env_free' referenced from text segment *** Error code 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 21:49:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05799 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:49:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05793 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:49:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA07544; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:48:34 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD current users Subject: Re: Cron breaks badly in today's -current In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Mar 1998 16:04:14 +1030." <19980308160414.03591@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 21:48:34 -0800 Message-ID: <7539.889336114@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > So, after John said that -current was worth testing again, I supped > and started a make world. It got as far as cron: Bruce broke this and claims to have fixed it in a subsequent email but I can only conclude that: A) He has become confused by too many diffs and merely dreamed that he fixed it. B) He meant "I fixed it in *my* tree - the rest of you can go take a flying leap at a rolling donut!" :-) :-) Since I certainly haven't seen any fix in my own builds. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 22:23:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11049 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from home.dragondata.com (toasty@home.dragondata.com [204.137.237.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11043 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:22:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toasty@home.dragondata.com) Received: (from toasty@localhost) by home.dragondata.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id AAA22812; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:22:18 -0600 (CST) From: Kevin Day Message-Id: <199803080622.AAA22812@home.dragondata.com> Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use In-Reply-To: <199803072256.RAA02792@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 7, 98 05:56:58 pm" To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:22:13 -0600 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, karl@mcs.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I have committed all of my pending NFS, VFS and VM fixes. The regression > tests have been run, and the system has run nicely with my normal load and > an artifically high load. > > Please give me feedback ASAP, so that I can fix problems ASAP!!! :-). My test of: cp /var/crash/vmcore.0 /mnt/nfs ; gzip /mnt/nfs/vmcore.0 Now won't crash the server. I'm also seeing a lower load average during heavy nfs traffic on the client, and slightly faster transfers. Kernel from Feb 4: Load average while copying 80M file over 100BaseTX line: 0.40 Time: 1 minute, 21 seconds Load average while copying 80M file over 10BaseT line: 0.38 Time: could not complete without panic Kernel from today: Load average while copying 80M file over 100BaseTX line: 0.31 Time: 59 seconds Load average while copying 80M file over 10BaseT: 0.30 Time: 3 minutes, 41 seconds (note, this segment has a lot of other traffic on it as well) Also: gcc test.c ; ./a.out ; gcc test.c No longer crashes my system! :) Whatever you did John, keep doing it. :) Thanks! Kevin Day To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 22:32:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12914 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12905 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:32:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02112; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:32:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803080632.BAA02112@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Okay, -current should be conditionally safe to use In-Reply-To: <199803080622.AAA22812@home.dragondata.com> from Kevin Day at "Mar 8, 98 00:22:13 am" To: toasty@home.dragondata.com (Kevin Day) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 01:32:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, karl@mcs.net From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kevin Day said: > > > > I have committed all of my pending NFS, VFS and VM fixes. The regression > > tests have been run, and the system has run nicely with my normal load and > > an artifically high load. > > > > Please give me feedback ASAP, so that I can fix problems ASAP!!! :-). > (various encouraging comments elided :-)). > > No longer crashes my system! :) > > Whatever you did John, keep doing it. :) > Well, I have made a few more commits, that should improve the system stability (perhaps undo some breakage that I had caused during this or the last megacommit.) Thanks for the encouragement! -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 22:36:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13570 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:36:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mantar.slip.netcom.com (mantar.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13539; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:36:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@mantar.slip.netcom.com) Received: from mantar.slip.netcom.com (mantar.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.134]) by mantar.slip.netcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA00192; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@mantar.slip.netcom.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:36:11 -0800 (PST) From: Manfred Antar To: current@FreeBSD.ORG cc: smp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: current vm changes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been getting a few messages like this from a kernel built tonite vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 28996 failure Mar 7 22:27:22 mantar /kernel: pid 28996 (in.cfingerd), uid 32767: exited on signal 11 spec_getpages: I/O read failure: (code=0) vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 29047 failure Mar 7 22:28:29 mantar /kernel: pid 29047 (make), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped) I'm doing a make -j -k world in the backround on a dual pentium machine confiured for smp. never seen this before. Manfred ============================== || mantar@netcom.com || || Ph. (415) 681-6235 || ============================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 23:00:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15672 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15646; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:00:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA02274; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:00:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803080700.CAA02274@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: current vm changes In-Reply-To: from Manfred Antar at "Mar 7, 98 10:36:11 pm" To: root@mantar.slip.netcom.com (Manfred Antar) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:00:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, smp@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Manfred Antar said: > I've been getting a few messages like this from a kernel built > tonite > vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 28996 failure > Mar 7 22:27:22 mantar /kernel: pid 28996 (in.cfingerd), uid 32767: exited > on signal 11 > spec_getpages: I/O read failure: (code=0) > vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 29047 failure > Mar 7 22:28:29 mantar /kernel: pid 29047 (make), uid 0: exited on signal > 11 (core dumped) > I am working on it, should have better diagnostics, and possible fix in an hour or so. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 23:01:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15826 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:01:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.giovannelli.it (www.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15817; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from giovannelli.it (modem00.masternet.it [194.184.65.254]) by www.giovannelli.it (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00256; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 08:06:08 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <350242F8.5C6A0112@giovannelli.it> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 08:04:25 +0100 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cron breaks badly in today's -current References: <7539.889336114@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Since I certainly haven't seen any fix in my own builds. Perhaps it is this one ? :-) Checkout src/usr.sbin/cron/Makefile.inc -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sat Mar 7 23:24:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17956 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:24:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mantar.slip.netcom.com (mantar.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17858; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:24:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@mantar.slip.netcom.com) Received: from mantar.slip.netcom.com (mantar.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.134]) by mantar.slip.netcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA10057; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:24:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@mantar.slip.netcom.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:24:33 -0800 (PST) From: Manfred Antar To: "John S. Dyson" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, smp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: current vm changes In-Reply-To: <199803080700.CAA02274@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > Manfred Antar said: > > I've been getting a few messages like this from a kernel built > > tonite > > vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 28996 failure > > Mar 7 22:27:22 mantar /kernel: pid 28996 (in.cfingerd), uid 32767: exited > > on signal 11 > > spec_getpages: I/O read failure: (code=0) > > vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 29047 failure > > Mar 7 22:28:29 mantar /kernel: pid 29047 (make), uid 0: exited on signal > > 11 (core dumped) > > > I am working on it, should have better diagnostics, and possible fix in > an hour or so. > All in all my machine seems to be working better. I have not been able to do a full make world without it locking up for about a week.And it's just about completed one now. Thanks much Manfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Mar 8 00:06:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24623 for freebsd-current-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:06:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24602 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:06:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09170; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:05:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803080805.AAA09170@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: quiksilver cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATAPI Zip Drive In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 23:29:39 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 00:05:07 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > How do you mount an ATAPI Zip drive? 4 screws, two down either side, or from underneath. If you want to get it into a 5.25" drive bay, you'll need a bracket set to suit a floppy drive (it has the same mounting requirements as a 3.5" floppy). -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message