From owner-freebsd-database Tue Mar 10 15:33:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28387 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:33:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA28343 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:33:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 24340 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Mar 1998 23:40:34 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-030698 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803102114.WAA03084@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:40:34 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte , freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On 10-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > Since there is a lot of interest (well, at least discussion) in HA: > > why not add a freebsd-ha mailinglist to majordomo? > > This keeps people from frantically editing their .procmailrc to filter > out the HA threads from -hackers. Good idea. How about moving it to freebsd-database which is already there. Besides, only database winnies are interested in such stuff... Simon ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Wed Mar 11 07:57:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29558 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:57:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from talon.anteon.com ([205.197.104.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29542 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rhughes@anteon.com) From: rhughes@anteon.com Received: from talon.anteon.com (root@localhost) by talon.anteon.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16358 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from spectrum.anteon.com (spectrum.anteon.com [172.30.104.223]) by talon.anteon.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16354 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ffx.anteon.com by spectrum.anteon.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA09410; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:03:44 -0500 Received: from ccMail by ffx.anteon.com (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.01) id AA889631928; Wed, 11 Mar 98 10:58:56 -0500 Message-Id: <9803118896.AA889631928@ffx.anteon.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.01 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 09:54:16 -0500 To: Subject: JDBC driver for Postgres Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Does anyone know where I can get a JDBC driver for Postgres ?? I've found a few references, but I can't find the software. Many thanks ! R. Hughes To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Wed Mar 11 08:34:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04169 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:34:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from our.domaintje.com (our.domaintje.com [194.178.252.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04149 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:33:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@our.domaintje.com) Received: from our.domaintje.com ([IPv6:::ffff:194.178.252.9] EHLO our.domaintje.com ident: IDENT-NONSENSE [port 25092]) by our.domaintje.com with ESMTP id <8453-180>; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:34:11 +0100 To: rhughes@anteon.com cc: freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: JDBC driver for Postgres In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:54:16 EST." <9803118896.AA889631928@ffx.anteon.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:34:06 +0100 From: Frank Ederveen Message-Id: <19980311163411Z8453-180+207@our.domaintje.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Does anyone know where I can get a JDBC driver for Postgres ?? I've found a few references, but I can't find the software. Sure, look at http://www.demon.co.uk/finder/postgres/index.html FrankE To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Wed Mar 11 08:36:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04420 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:36:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [209.47.148.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04400 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:35:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by hub.org (8.8.8/8.7.5) with SMTP id LAA00893; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:35:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:35:55 -0500 (EST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: rhughes@anteon.com cc: freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: JDBC driver for Postgres In-Reply-To: <9803118896.AA889631928@ffx.anteon.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 rhughes@anteon.com wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can get a JDBC driver for Postgres ?? > I've found a few references, but I can't find the software. The "supported" JDBC driver is included as part of v6.3... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Wed Mar 11 08:51:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07237 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:51:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from soccer.inetspace.com (soccer.inetspace.com [206.50.163.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07232 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:51:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kgor@soccer.inetspace.com) Received: (from kgor@localhost) by soccer.inetspace.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18567; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:49:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kgor) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:49:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803111649.KAA18567@soccer.inetspace.com> From: "Kent S. Gordon" To: rhughes@anteon.com CC: freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <9803118896.AA889631928@ffx.anteon.com> (rhughes@anteon.com) Subject: Re: JDBC driver for Postgres Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk >>>>> "rhughes" == rhughes writes: > Does anyone know where I can get a JDBC driver for Postgres > ?? I've found a few references, but I can't find the software. It is in the postgres distribution under src/interfaces/jdbc in any recent distribution (6.2.1 or 6.3) > Many thanks ! > R. Hughes -- Kent S. Gordon Architect iNetSpace Co. voice: (972)851-3494 fax:(972)702-0384 e-mail:kgor@inetspace.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Wed Mar 11 10:52:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04782 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:52:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA04098; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:51:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA22121 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:50:38 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01049; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:28:35 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803111828.TAA01049@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 10, 98 03:40:34 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:28:35 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 10-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > Since there is a lot of interest (well, at least discussion) in HA: > > > > why not add a freebsd-ha mailinglist to majordomo? > > > > This keeps people from frantically editing their .procmailrc to filter > > out the HA threads from -hackers. > > Good idea. How about moving it to freebsd-database which is already there. > Besides, only database winnies are interested in such stuff... Na. That is A. not 'meaningful naming' and B. I don't agree that only DB weenies are interested. For one WWW server weenies are interested, maybe people running public ftp servers etc. Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Thu Mar 12 01:48:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04406 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:48:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from beast.gu.net (beast-fxp0.gu.net [194.93.191.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA04400 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:48:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stesin@gu.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beast.gu.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14784; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:43:58 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from stesin@gu.net) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:43:58 +0200 (EET) From: Andrew Stesin Reply-To: stesin@gu.net To: Wilko Bulte cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues In-Reply-To: <199803111828.TAA01049@yedi.iaf.nl> Message-ID: X-NCC-RegID: ua.gu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Hi, On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > Good idea. How about moving it to freebsd-database which is already there. > > Besides, only database winnies are interested in such stuff... > > Na. That is A. not 'meaningful naming' and B. I don't agree that only > DB weenies are interested. Too many lists aren't a good thing either. Databases require HA, so everyone interested in databases will be a HA-list reader by definition; everyone who needs HA needs it for something, and pretty much every "serious" task today has something to do with databases? I agree that HA and `databases' are very close topics. Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Thu Mar 12 06:31:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00748 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:31:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00742 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:31:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA20032; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:28:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199803121428.GAA20032@pike.cdrom.com> To: stesin@gu.net cc: Wilko Bulte , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com, rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:43:58 +0200." Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:28:13 -0800 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Andrew Stesin said... > >Hi, > >On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Wilko Bulte wrote: > >> > Good idea. How about moving it to freebsd-database which is already there. >> > Besides, only database winnies are interested in such stuff... >> >> Na. That is A. not 'meaningful naming' and B. I don't agree that only >> DB weenies are interested. > > Too many lists aren't a good thing either. Databases > require HA, so everyone interested in databases will be > a HA-list reader by definition; everyone who needs HA > needs it for something, and pretty much every "serious" > task today has something to do with databases? I agree that > HA and `databases' are very close topics. What is "HA"? -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Thu Mar 12 08:08:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10836 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA10828 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:08:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 16408 invoked by uid 1000); 12 Mar 1998 16:16:47 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-030698 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803121428.GAA20032@pike.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:16:47 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On 12-Mar-98 Robert A. Bruce wrote: > Andrew Stesin said... >> >>Hi, >> >>On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Wilko Bulte wrote: >> >>> > Good idea. How about moving it to freebsd-database which is already >>> > there. >>> > Besides, only database winnies are interested in such stuff... >>> >>> Na. That is A. not 'meaningful naming' and B. I don't agree that only >>> DB weenies are interested. >> >> Too many lists aren't a good thing either. Databases >> require HA, so everyone interested in databases will be >> a HA-list reader by definition; everyone who needs HA >> needs it for something, and pretty much every "serious" >> task today has something to do with databases? I agree that >> HA and `databases' are very close topics. > > > What is "HA"? 1. Short for Ha!, or Ha-ha-ha!, as in ``Do you really belive this can work? ha ha ha!" 2. High Availability. AKA HAS, High Availability Server. A set of features that allow a computer to continue and provide service with no loss of data and only a brief interruption of service, in the fase of a single failure. HAS are typically said to be SPOF (Single Point Of Failure) free. They are designed to have the ability to tolerate any single component falure. If there is interest, we can start a discussion on what such a computer looks like. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Thu Mar 12 08:20:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12116 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:20:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12103 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:20:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12054; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:31:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980312113159.46186@vmunix.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:31:59 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues References: <199803121428.GAA20032@pike.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Thu, Mar 12, 1998 at 08:16:47AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Thu, Mar 12, 1998 at 08:16:47AM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 12-Mar-98 Robert A. Bruce wrote: > > Andrew Stesin said... [SNIP] > > What is "HA"? > > 2. High Availability. AKA HAS, High Availability Server. A set of > features that allow a computer to continue and provide service with no > loss of data and only a brief interruption of service, in the fase of a > single failure. > > HAS are typically said to be SPOF (Single Point Of Failure) free. They are > designed to have the ability to tolerate any single component falure. > > If there is interest, we can start a discussion on what such a computer > looks like. They typically are tall, slender boxes with a piano-laquer black finish, dark blue (almost glowing) side "fins", with soft ventillation holes along the front, and a little oval logo in the top left corner that reads "IBM".. ;-) -Mark > Simon > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Thu Mar 12 08:28:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12795 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:28:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.rapidsite.net (mail.rapidsite.net [207.158.192.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12789 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:28:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gryphon@healer.com) Received: from healer.com (207.158.255.190) by mail.rapidsite.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11795; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:27:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35080D10.6304A44@healer.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:28:00 -0500 From: Coranth Gryphon Reply-To: cgryphon@rapidsite.net Organization: HiWay Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stesin@gu.net CC: Wilko Bulte , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Andrew Stesin wrote: > > Hi, > > On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > Na. That is A. not 'meaningful naming' and B. I don't agree that > > only DB weenies are interested. Andrew Stesin replied: > Too many lists aren't a good thing either. Databases > require HA, so everyone interested in databases will be > a HA-list reader by definition; everyone who needs HA Well, two cases against HA being the same as DB. First, Wilko commented that other people besides DB people might be interested. Second, as somone who follows the DB list, I have no clue what HA is, or why I would want to read about it here. -coranth ------------------------------------------+----------------------------- Coranth Gryphon | Work Phone: 561-912-2497 Architecture and Design Group | #include ------------------------------------------+----------------------------- Always bow to the inevitable, and then you can continue to dance. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Thu Mar 12 08:48:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15492 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:48:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15455 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09399; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:47:48 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA01154; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:47:47 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980312174747.57249@follo.net> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:47:47 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues References: <199803121428.GAA20032@pike.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Thu, Mar 12, 1998 at 08:16:47AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Thu, Mar 12, 1998 at 08:16:47AM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > 2. High Availability. AKA HAS, High Availability Server. A set of > features that allow a computer to continue and provide service with no > loss of data and only a brief interruption of service, in the fase of a > single failure. > > HAS are typically said to be SPOF (Single Point Of Failure) free. They are > designed to have the ability to tolerate any single component falure. I think that definition is fairly useless. Define city as single component, hit city with atomic bomb - booom, failure. OTOH, cvsup is to some degree SPOF-free - if any single continent is wiped out, my changes to FreeBSD will still persist :-) Higher Availability than that is probably only of academic interest. I actually think it would be better to talk about a system having features for High Availability than talking about it 'being HA'. Some features: Redundancy - anything that can fail with an interesting probability (and remember, you often have many deployed systems) should have solutions that can automatically take over functionality. Non-interference - anything that is temporarily disconnected will not interfere with the part that take over. Quick switchover - switchover to backup solutions should happen automatically and quickly once an error is detected. Error detection - errors should be detected quickly, automatically, and consistently. Quick restart - if something goes down, it should not need a long time to restart. fsck is right out. At a theoretical level, I think these are probably the main points. We can then start discussing what interesting subsystems FreeBSD has, and what can be done to provide these features for each of the subsystems. > If there is interest, we can start a discussion on what such a computer > looks like. That could be interesting, though if we really want this to be fruitful we should (at some point not too far into the future) start focusing on making at least TODO-list, and probably a few designs. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Thu Mar 12 11:13:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05437 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA05428 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:13:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA00349 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:12:24 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01339; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:47:52 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803121847.TAA01339@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues In-Reply-To: <199803121428.GAA20032@pike.cdrom.com> from "Robert A. Bruce" at "Mar 12, 98 06:28:13 am" To: rab@cdrom.com (Robert A. Bruce) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:47:52 +0100 (MET) Cc: stesin@gu.net, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com, rab@pike.cdrom.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk As Robert A. Bruce wrote... > Andrew Stesin said... > > > >Hi, > > > >On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > > >> > Good idea. How about moving it to freebsd-database which is already there. > >> > Besides, only database winnies are interested in such stuff... > >> > >> Na. That is A. not 'meaningful naming' and B. I don't agree that only > >> DB weenies are interested. > > > > Too many lists aren't a good thing either. Databases True. > > require HA, so everyone interested in databases will be > > a HA-list reader by definition; everyone who needs HA > > needs it for something, and pretty much every "serious" > > task today has something to do with databases? I agree that Not true IMHO. > > HA and `databases' are very close topics. > > > What is "HA"? Sorry: High Availability. Usually cluster-[like] configurations with multiple systems. > -bob > Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-database Thu Mar 12 16:06:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03623 for freebsd-database-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:06:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03616 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:06:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 19261 invoked by uid 1000); 12 Mar 1998 20:14:09 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-030698 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980312174747.57249@follo.net> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:14:09 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: Fault tolerance issues Cc: freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG, "Robert A.Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-database@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On 12-Mar-98 Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Thu, Mar 12, 1998 at 08:16:47AM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: >> 2. High Availability. AKA HAS, High Availability Server. A set of >> features that allow a computer to continue and provide service with >> no >> loss of data and only a brief interruption of service, in the fase >> of a >> single failure. >> >> HAS are typically said to be SPOF (Single Point Of Failure) free. They >> are >> designed to have the ability to tolerate any single component falure. > > I think that definition is fairly useless. Define city as single > component, hit city with atomic bomb - booom, failure. Not at all. A Atom bomb tends to damage more than one component in the system :-) You have to separate operational availability from disaster recovery. For most FreeBSD users, a Nuclear bomb will singnal the end of their interest in the system, or its data. A phone company may want to survive a conventional weapons attack by having a second database mirrored in another facility. iregardless of that issue, each facility still wants to have resistance to single component failure. It is pretty well agreed in the industry what non-SPOF means. > OTOH, cvsup is to some degree SPOF-free - if any single continent is > wiped out, my changes to FreeBSD will still persist :-) Higher > Availability than that is probably only of academic interest. Cvsup is not a general purpose computer system. It is not even a general prpose database. It is a concept implemented as an application. This leads to the first ``Y'' in the road: Application Level vs. System Level HAS. Application level HAS is a very viable solution, no doubt, but it suffers from some drawbacks: a. The mechanisms are not directly usable by other applications; The way and means by which cvsup distributes and protects the data has no use for airline ticket reservation system. Only the human understanding of some of the issues may be trasferrable. b. Typically, poor atomicity/resolution palgues such solutions. Cvsup is an exception, but the cvsup model is totally unacceptable for OLTP type work. c. Very long and unreliable checkpoint/restart delays. Again, for cvsup, it matters not. For an on-line ordering/credit-card processing systm, it may not be acceptable. > I actually think it would be better to talk about a system having > features for High Availability than talking about it 'being HA'. I tend to disagree here too. These are two separate, but equally valid discussions. a. What characterizes a High Availability Server (as opposed to a Fault Tolerant one) b. What features are there to implement a HAS. Some of these features can be adopted by NSHAS to various degrees. > Some features: > Redundancy - anything that can fail with an interesting > probability (and remember, you often have many deployed > systems) should have solutions that can automatically take > over functionality. This directly contradicts your Atomic bomb statement from above. Besides, this is an implementation feature. Redundency is not part of high availability definition. It is one part of an implementation solution. Maybe the only one we can think of at this moment. > Non-interference - anything that is temporarily disconnected > will not interfere with the part that take over. This is part of SPOF. If a disk drive fails and takes the SCSI bus with it, we now have TWO failed components; A disk and a bus. But, you are right in this requirement. > Quick switchover - switchover to backup solutions should > happen automatically and quickly once an error is detected. Not necessarily. What if I do not need to switch over at all? If our solution to HA is to switch over, then it needs to be quick, automatic and transparent. But what (how long) is quick? > Error detection - errors should be detected quickly, > automatically, and consistently. We need this one above the other one. First we detect the error, then we decide to switch over :-) > Quick restart - if something goes down, it should not need a > long time to restart. fsck is right out. We do not need quich re-start if we have quick (or no) switchover. If a filesystem can continue to be accessed, in the face of a system crash, then who cares how long it takes the system to re-boot? We care, as in most HAS, we will be in a degraded mode until repairs are perfoprmed. Degraded mode means that we continue processing probably at a reduced rate), but the next failure will cause disruption of service. Fsck assumes Unix filesystems. I am still at a lower and perhaps broader level. Think about raw didsk, tapes, networking, etc. > At a theoretical level, I think these are probably the main points. > We can then start discussing what interesting subsystems FreeBSD has, > and what can be done to provide these features for each of the > subsystems. > >> If there is interest, we can start a discussion on what such a computer >> looks like. > > That could be interesting, though if we really want this to be > fruitful we should (at some point not too far into the future) start > focusing on making at least TODO-list, and probably a few designs. > > Eivind. Absolutely agree. the only exception I take here is that we may want to define the service level, the interruption modes, etc., before we think soluitions. For example, I do not want to assume Unix Filesystem of any kind when I think data storage. You may belive that UFS is just fine. I may think contineous service, you may think resstart. We have to define the services we want to support, their level of ``reliability'', failure modes, etc. Then we come up with a TODO list, then we do it. My bias towards this is to push the HA as far down the stack as I can reasonably get away with. I want to be able to drop as much ``off the shelf'' stuff on top of it. Give you an example; It took the ufs filesystem almost 1/4 of a century to stabilize. It still goes through girations (soft updates) and still incapable of surviving a software crash (panic) with absolute certainty of 100% instant recovery. Veritas can pretty much deliver that, but not UFS. UFS is totally incapable of recovering from ANY hardware failures. Veritas offers a facility that can somewhat survice hardware failures. My point? If I can ``give'' FreeBSD a reliable ``disk'' that looks, tastes, smells, and sounds like a ``normal'' disk, and this ``disk'' guarantees: a) no data loss with a single component failure, and b) transparent and continual availability with one Unix instance loss, I can put ANY disk access method (not only a filesystem) on it, and this method will automagically be reliable, non-lossy, resilinet and highly available. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-database" in the body of the message