From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 12:56:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21621 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21605 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:56:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup538.serv.net [207.207.70.103]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA03383 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:56:04 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Latest discoveries... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi everyone, I've been out of the loop for a couple days trying to get the "perfect" hard drive configuration and slice/partition sizes for BSD and my other OS's (it ain't gonna happen, but I've finally gotten as close as possible, and I'm sick to death of reinstalling OS's - if I never go through another OS installation routine for the rest of my life (yeah, right) I'd be delighted at this point). My latest BSD discoveries: (1) The BSD nearest equivalent of "deltree" in DOS (rm -f -r *) (2) How to format, label, create a new filesystem on, mount and unmount floppy disks, so I can backup important config files. Information on request :-) Since I'm offering information, I'll take the risk of asking a question as well, since the two balance each other out... Still need to know: How to use multiple commands in csh aliases. For example, in .cshrc, there are alias lines letting you set up your own commands. I haven't been able to figure out how to execute more than one command at a time using an alias. I want to be able to format, label and mount a floppy disk in one operation, but everything I've tried as far as setting an alias like "dofloppy" that performs those three operations has failed. I've had to break them up into separate aliases. Any clues from csh experts out there? If not, I'll try freebsd-questions next. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 13:06:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23196 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23191 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:06:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup538.serv.net [207.207.70.103]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA03789; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980621130613.007d53c0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:06:13 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Current projects... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980620055442.28126@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980619054457.007f8500@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980619054457.007f8500@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:54 AM 6/20/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >PLEASE don't encourage anyone who hasn't got ten years of unix >development experience to ever even CONTEMPLATE using freebsd-current, >let alone any part thereof. I never encourage anyone to try anything. I just do what I like myself and see what happens. If I want to use freebsd-current, I'd love to see you try and stop me (You'd need a plane ticket from Australia to Seattle, to start...) >This is a DEFINITE NO-NO. Sorry, ma... (twirling toe in the dirt)... >I can explain to you later, but for now, PLEASE take my word for it. >FreeBSD-CURRENT is no-touchy! I thought you were a newbie yourself. I'll take advice on this from an expert, but from another newbie? Forget it. The blind leading the blind, and all that, dontcha know. >I gotta try to find a way to make this more clear than it is. How about getting a megaphone and taking a jog around the block, yelling it out loud at full volume. Or maybe create an Internet worm that invades servers all over the world and simply displays a message on everyone's screen who's connected: "ANYONE WITH LESS THAN TEN YEARS EXPERIENCE WHO TRIES FREEBSD-CURRENT IS SUBJECT TO PROSECUTION." Sorry for the cynicism... but I personally never encourage anyone to try anything that I do myself, I simply report what I do. Also, you need to realize that people have minds of their own and will do what they please to their own systems. You do what's right for your system, and let others decide to do what's right for theirs. >Every now and then a newbie picks the pre-alpha version, thinking they're >doing the right thing :-( Any suggestions you might have would be >welcome. Sure - drop the subject. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 13:47:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27068 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:47:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27055 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:47:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA04084; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 06:47:13 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980622064709.42940@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 06:47:09 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current projects... References: <3.0.5.32.19980619054457.007f8500@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980619054457.007f8500@mx.serv.net> <19980620055442.28126@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980621130613.007d53c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980621130613.007d53c0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 01:06:13PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 01:06:13PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 05:54 AM 6/20/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > I thought you were a newbie yourself. I'll take advice on this from an > expert, but from another newbie? Forget it. The blind leading the blind, > and all that, dontcha know. Perfectly correct. But the issue here is separate to that one, and does not negate it. My advice to you was as a friend, an equal, in private. I expected our usual lively private exchange, but certainly would not have said what I said had it been in public. If you deliberately disregard the warnings given in the handbook and elsewhere, that's your business and who am I to warn you that it might be dangerous. But realise the likely outcomes: 1. You will not be in a position to get any support, even if you did the upgrade properly. There are instructions about what is expected of someone running FreeBSD-current, which include participating in that mailing list for several weeks before downloading, and it is also stated that it is not supported. 2. You will be misleading others if you encourage them to do this. By the way. Please do not quote anyone's private mail in a public forum without their consent. Many people get pretty stroppy over things like that. In countries where litigation is popular there have been quite heated debates over this kind of thing, so if you happen to believe this newbie's warning in this case, be very careful. In this particular case, I feel that part of our extended private joking banter has been misrepresented as an official instruction. Further, you removed some of the context in which I indicated that this was a wild reaction made within minutes of waking up at 5am. I had hoped to save you a great deal of trouble by delaying my wake-up coffee and bathroom visit to write to you personally, in case you were still on line and might reconsider or at least be delayed by a little fun debate. Never again. You sound like you don't want to take responsibility for yourself let alone others, so why should I even bother. Of course you will do whatever you like, and so will I. You're on your own now, mate. BTW, I don't ruffle well before 7am. Stick that up your FAQ. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 14:04:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29133 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29122 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from genisis@istar.ca) Received: from ts7-04.kin.istar.ca ([207.216.1.131] helo=genisis) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 0ynrHw-0001up-00; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 17:04:37 -0400 Message-ID: <002801bd9d58$89279f00$8301d8cf@genisis> From: "Dru" To: "Tim Gerchmez" Cc: Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 17:06:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Still need to know: How to use multiple commands in csh aliases. For >example, in .cshrc, there are alias lines letting you set up your own >commands. I haven't been able to figure out how to execute more than one >command at a time using an alias. I want to be able to format, label and >mount a floppy disk in one operation, but everything I've tried as far as >setting an alias like "dofloppy" that performs those three operations has >failed. I've had to break them up into separate aliases. Any clues from >csh experts out there? If not, I'll try freebsd-questions next. I'm no expert, but it sounds like you want a shell script, not an alias. This is covered in very good detail with many simple examples in the book Unix Unleashed in Chapter 13 under Aliases and Shell Scripts. Not trying to push the website, but I'm poor and the book is excellent. I shelved the Complete FreeBSD when it told me to use my favorite text editor to set up my ppp configuration files. Geez, I had had FreeBSD installed and running for less than 5 minutes and I already had a favorite text editor? Thus my introduction to Vi, but I digress and don't want to get you started on the vi thread again. Anyways, read the book for free at http://www.mcp.com/personal. Register your e-mail address to get access to the e-library. Hope this helps. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 14:22:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01920 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:22:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01879 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:22:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup514.serv.net [207.207.70.79]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07261 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980621142205.00808910@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:22:05 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Current projects... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:47 AM 6/22/98 +1000, you wrote: >If you deliberately disregard the warnings given in the handbook and >elsewhere, that's your business and who am I to warn you that it might be >dangerous. Gee, will it blow up my computer? Just how do you define "dangerous?" The whole point here is to LEARN NEW THINGS, and the way you do that is by TRYING THINGS and disregarding warnings intended for people who need stable systems to run their ISP businesses on. Newbies will not be needing stable, rock-solid systems. Newbies need to TRY NEW THINGS, screw up, install, re-install, experiment, make mistakes, try again. If a newbie to BSD writes a term paper for school using StarOffice (or Vi.. hehehehe), doesn't back it up, and does something that can't be recovered from/requires an OS re-install, that person is not a newbie but an idiot. >2. You will be misleading others if you encourage them to do this. I already stated that I don't encourage others to try what I try. I've learned my lesson about that kind of thing several times, believe me. However, if you consider me simply reporting my own experiences (whether successes or failures) "encouragement," so be it. There's nothing I can do about it. >By the way. Please do not quote anyone's private mail in a public forum >without their consent. Many people get pretty stroppy over things like >that. In countries where litigation is popular there have been quite >heated debates over this kind of thing, so if you happen to believe this >newbie's warning in this case, be very careful. *Sigh*... so sue me. I live in the U.S., am on disability and receive U.S. $458/month. You'd have to fly out here for the court hearings, and convince both the U.S. and the Australian governments that I've violated some kind of law by posting a message intended to be private to a public mailing list. BTW, what I sent to the mailing list was MY REPLY to your Email, with portions of your original quoted (could be stated under the "fair use" doctrines). I certainly didn't directly forward your Email to the list. Also, although if requested I will not disclose private Email (you didn't mention anything about whether or not you cared until afterward), I consider anything coming into my mailbox to become my private property. Consider yourself warned. >Never again. ... I'm going on 24+ hrs with no sleep again. I tend to be a little aggressive at that point. If you can't deal with my style, fine, no more correspondence necessary. There are only 500 or so other people I can discuss BSD with on the newbies mailing list alone, and thousands of others elsewhere. >BTW, I don't ruffle well before 7am. Stick that up your FAQ. It's 2:08 PM here. Am I supposed to take the time difference between our locations in mind every time I send you an Email? If so, we DEFINITELY have to stop, as there's no way I'll remember about that. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 14:46:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06260 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:46:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06253 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:46:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup417.serv.net [207.207.70.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA08502; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980621144626.007f7e80@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:46:26 -0700 To: "Dru" From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... Cc: In-Reply-To: <002801bd9d58$89279f00$8301d8cf@genisis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I do want to know if it CAN be done as a simple alias rather than using a shell script. I certainly wouldn't mind learning to write shell scripts, but I'd also like to know if an alias in .cshrc can include more than one command, and if so, what the correct syntax would be. Thanks for the suggestion, Tim At 05:06 PM 6/21/98 -0400, Dru wrote: > >>Still need to know: How to use multiple commands in csh aliases. For >>example, in .cshrc, there are alias lines letting you set up your own >>commands. I haven't been able to figure out how to execute more than one >>command at a time using an alias. I want to be able to format, label and >>mount a floppy disk in one operation, but everything I've tried as far as >>setting an alias like "dofloppy" that performs those three operations has >>failed. I've had to break them up into separate aliases. Any clues from >>csh experts out there? If not, I'll try freebsd-questions next. > > >I'm no expert, but it sounds like you want a shell script, not an alias. >This is covered in very good detail with many simple examples in the book >Unix Unleashed in Chapter 13 under Aliases and Shell Scripts. Not trying >to push the website, but I'm poor and the book is excellent. I shelved the >Complete FreeBSD when it told me to use my favorite text editor to set up my >ppp configuration files. Geez, I had had FreeBSD installed and running for >less than 5 minutes and I already had a favorite text editor? Thus my >introduction to Vi, but I digress and don't want to get you started on the >vi thread again. > >Anyways, read the book for free at http://www.mcp.com/personal. Register >your e-mail address to get access to the e-library. Hope this helps. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 15:24:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12942 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:24:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12935 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:24:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from genisis@istar.ca) Received: from ts8-09.kin.istar.ca ([207.216.1.120] helo=genisis) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 0ynsXq-0003bm-00; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:25:08 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01bd9d63$c9d14460$7801d8cf@genisis> From: "Dru" To: "Tim Gerchmez" Cc: Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:27:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Well, I do want to know if it CAN be done as a simple alias rather than >using a shell script. I certainly wouldn't mind learning to write shell >scripts, but I'd also like to know if an alias in .cshrc can include more >than one command, and if so, what the correct syntax would be. Sorry, Tim. I thought the point of this mailing list was to point newbies to resources, not to bottle feed them. Read the book, or at least the portions that pertain to your project of the moment. BTW, from my limited Unix experience, it would appear that Unix was created especially to run multiple, concurrent commands/processes from one-lined commands. It appears anything is possible, if you take the time to read up on what you want to do. Don't take it personal; I'm just irritated at the moment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 16:20:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23659 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23622 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13589; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 23:48:17 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980621234817.22444@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 23:48:17 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... References: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:56:04PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:56:04PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Still need to know: How to use multiple commands in csh aliases. Which bit of "Ask questions on -questions" eludes you? Particularly when the answer is in the first paragraph of the 'Commands' section of the csh(1) man page (a whole 6 pages in on a 25 line display)? N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 16:21:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23740 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:21:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (pme70.sunshine.net [209.17.178.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23685 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03615; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:20:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:20:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: Tim Gerchmez cc: Dru , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980621144626.007f7e80@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org HELO Tim, After reading `man 1 csh', i tried this: --- vanessa# alias test "touch A ; cp A A2 ; ls -l A*" vanessa# test -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 0 Jun 21 16:06 A -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 0 Jun 21 16:06 A2 vanessa# unalias test vanessa# test vanessa# which test /bin/test vanessa# file /bin/test /bin/test: FreeBSD/i386 compact demand paged executable vanessa# alias A "touch A ; cp A A2 ; ls -l A*" vanessa# rm A vanessa# rm A2 vanessa# A -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 0 Jun 21 16:13 A -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 0 Jun 21 16:13 A2 --- Not have ever asked the question before I assumed creatin a shell script the best course and keeping any of those in $HOME/bin. On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: => => Well, I do want to know if it CAN be done as a simple alias rather than => using a shell script. I certainly wouldn't mind learning to write shell => scripts, but I'd also like to know if an alias in .cshrc can include more => than one command, and if so, what the correct syntax would be. => => Thanks for the suggestion, => => Tim => => At 05:06 PM 6/21/98 -0400, Dru wrote: => > => >>Still need to know: How to use multiple commands in csh aliases. For => >>example, in .cshrc, there are alias lines letting you set up your own => >>commands. I haven't been able to figure out how to execute more than one => >>command at a time using an alias. I want to be able to format, label and => >>mount a floppy disk in one operation, but everything I've tried as far as => >>setting an alias like "dofloppy" that performs those three operations has => >>failed. I've had to break them up into separate aliases. Any clues from => >>csh experts out there? If not, I'll try freebsd-questions next. => > => > => >I'm no expert, but it sounds like you want a shell script, not an alias. => >This is covered in very good detail with many simple examples in the book => >Unix Unleashed in Chapter 13 under Aliases and Shell Scripts. Not trying => >to push the website, but I'm poor and the book is excellent. I shelved the => >Complete FreeBSD when it told me to use my favorite text editor to set up my => >ppp configuration files. Geez, I had had FreeBSD installed and running for => >less than 5 minutes and I already had a favorite text editor? Thus my => >introduction to Vi, but I digress and don't want to get you started on the => >vi thread again. => > Regards, Discover Rock Solid Kevin G. Eliuk Discover FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSD.Org --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==----==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 16:25:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24550 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:25:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1e.yahoomail.com (send1e.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24535 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon_v_mendoza@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980621232453.12315.rocketmail@send1e.yahoomail.com> Received: from [200.44.1.44] by send1e; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:24:53 PDT Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:24:53 -0700 (PDT) From: simon mendoza Subject: Re: Horrible things, NIC's To: pirat sriyotha , Tim Parkinson Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---pirat sriyotha wrote: > > > hi, > > from my failure books, you must know what the factory setting of port number > and interrupt number of your NE2000 card. you have to know, to get them by any > means. then boot -cv and setting ed0 ( or ed1) to those two numbers. > > sure you have to edit /etc/rc.conf to set things up correctly before > shutdown -r now. and hit dash see we, -cv, at boot prompt, boot: > > rgds, > psr > > On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:51:05PM +0100, Tim Parkinson wrote: > > Harumph, > > > > I just went out and bought a shiny new NE2000 compatible (read: cheap) to go > > alongside the one in my FreeBSD gateway, and replace the 3Com 3c509 that had > > been giving a bit of jip recently. I rolled up a nice new kernel, changed > > the startup stuff in /etc/rc.conf and rebooted -Aaaagh, complete spasms. > > Ifconfig refused to add the IP addresses and various other scary problems > > related to that. Finally, I have ifconfig adding the IP's but still the > > *naughty word-ing* thing is having problems. Grrr, I'm not happy. > > > > Note, this isn't a question. I just wanted to vent a little frustration at > > being a newbie and not being able to work out what is wrong! > > > > Still, I guess this is the best way to learn, have something fall over and > > have to get your hands dirty and fix it. > > :( > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Tim Parkinson -Teaching Company Associate > > Nottingham Trent University & Clerical Gas Ltd > > Tel: 0115 9783677 Fax: 0115 9706977 > > tim.parkinson@ccr.ntu.ac.uk > > tim@gubbins.ml.org -Home > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > >From experience on installing net (ne2000 compatible) cards I will suggest booting from any msdos bootable diskette ( ver 5.0 or above) and run the ezset.exe or config.exe setup program and select the "display card configuration" so you will know the preset factory setup. It usually gives you the IRQ 3 and Port address 0300-031F. Unfourtunately the diskettes that come with these net cards come with dos configuration programs. Some day the same information willcome in handy for us FreeBSD users. Hoping that this gives you some light.. Greetings Simon. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 19:19:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21280 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:19:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from milkyway.org (lta-r-1.usit.net [205.241.194.17] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21268 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:19:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toby@milkyway.org) Received: from milkyway.org (rigel.milkyway.org [205.241.194.19]) by milkyway.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA18367; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358DC08F.FFCED56C@milkyway.org> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:25:19 -0400 From: Toby Swanson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... References: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Try looking for "command separator" on the csh man page. Another excellent source of information is the O'Reilly Nutshell Handbook, UNIX in a Nutshell (ISBN 1-56592-001-5, ~$10 US). It was written for System V, but 99% of it applies to BSD. It is a little terse, but very thorough. It lists (almost, as far as BSD is concerned) all the UNIX commands, and the Bourne, Korn and C shell commands, along with many more advanced topics. It also lists, and explains to some degree, the various operators, built-in variables, expressions, and such. It also provides _some_ examples, again terse but thorough. It is definitely a reference and not a tutorial, guide, mother or baby sitter. When I know what I want to do, but I do not know how to do it, this is where I look. I have a copy at work and at home (high praise from a tightwad like me). Toby (toby@milkyway.org) Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Still need to know: How to use multiple commands in csh aliases. . . . > . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 21:59:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12852 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:59:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12847 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup543.serv.net [207.207.70.108]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA29986; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980621215905.007fb8a0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:59:05 -0700 To: Nik Clayton , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... In-Reply-To: <19980621234817.22444@nothing-going-on.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org First off, nothing "eludes me." I chose to purposely bend the rules by asking a question, since I gave some advice at the same time, and I felt the two balanced each other out. If you don't like it, go complain/whine/moan elsewhere. I'm afraid I didn't find the answer where you said it was, or at least couldn't figure out how to use it. I tried at least 30 or 40 different forms of syntax as described in the man page section you mention and always got error messages. Why the hell is it so hard just to get a simple answer sometimes? Either you get "Read the manual stupid, it's right there," "Ask in another group, we don't do questions here" or something similar. If someone asks *ME* a question that I can answer, I usually answer it (and point out further resources at the same time for further learning). Yet all I ever get (here OR on freebsd-questions) is "it's in the manual, it's in the manual, it's in the manual, it's in the manual, it's in the manual." OBVIOUSLY... EVERYTHING ANYONE EVER NEEDS TO KNOW IS IN A MANUAL OR BOOK SOMEWHERE, but time plays a factor as well. I could keep trying different forms of syntax on those aliases (might take me a week) until I got it, or could go spend $45 on a book to find the answer to one question. Why is it so hard to give someone a quick answer to a simple question, so they can get on with what they're doing? I'll never for the life of me figure this one out. Everything's gotta be done the hard way. At 11:48 PM 6/21/98 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: >On Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 12:56:04PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> Still need to know: How to use multiple commands in csh aliases. > >Which bit of "Ask questions on -questions" eludes you? > >Particularly when the answer is in the first paragraph of the 'Commands' >section of the csh(1) man page (a whole 6 pages in on a 25 line display)? -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 22:12:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14778 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:12:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14725 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup543.serv.net [207.207.70.108]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA00882; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980621221038.00805100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:10:38 -0700 To: Toby Swanson From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <358DC08F.FFCED56C@milkyway.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:25 PM 6/21/98 -0400, you wrote: >Try looking for "command separator" on the csh man page. I did, and couldn't find anything I could comprehend. I also specifically looked in the section on aliases, and all it said was that the general lexical structure of .cshrc applies there as well, so I know it's possible to do it. That's all I was able to figure out after one hour of reading the man page over and over. >Another excellent >source of information is the O'Reilly Nutshell Handbook, UNIX in a Nutshell >(ISBN 1-56592-001-5, ~$10 US). It was written for System V, but 99% of it >applies to BSD. It is a little terse, but very thorough. Thanks for the info, but I generally don't "do" books. That's what my PC and the Net are for... :-) The book you mention sounds like a good one, but most books I've found to be useless and get outdated in a matter of just a couple months, and I have a shelf full of books on computer-related topics that I haven't touched in 5 years. They make nice nests for spiders, and that's about it. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 21 22:16:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15360 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15355 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup543.serv.net [207.207.70.108]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA01265; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980621221616.00805100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:16:16 -0700 To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... Cc: Dru , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980621144626.007f7e80@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you... I'll try that syntax and see what the results are. Seems to me I did and it didn't work, but it looks like it did in the example below. A shell script would probably have been the best solution, but the more I can put in one file, the less I have to remember to back up if I decide to reinstall my system (which I've been doing a lot as a newbie learning BSD and trying to find the best system configuration for my purposes). If I can just back up .cshrc and not have to remember to back up a whole other complete directory, all the better. The more customizations I make to the system, the more difficult it becomes should I ever have to re-install it, so I like to keep customizations few and far between, and in specific files that I can easily remember the names and locations of. At 04:20 PM 6/21/98 -0700, Kevin G. Eliuk wrote: > >HELO Tim, > >After reading `man 1 csh', i tried this: > >--- >vanessa# alias test "touch A ; cp A A2 ; ls -l A*" >vanessa# test >-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 0 Jun 21 16:06 A >-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 0 Jun 21 16:06 A2 -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 02:22:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27899 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 02:22:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27890 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 02:22:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup424.serv.net [207.207.70.25]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA11942 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 02:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 02:22:24 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's funny how Sue Blake and I have diametrically opposed philosophies regarding how newbies should deal with BSD: (1) She believes newbies should act with caution; not play with freebsd-current, be careful when trying new things, etc, for fear of screwing up your system. She told me not to EVER encourage anyone with less than 10 years experience to try freebsd-current, and stick with the stable release only. Sorry, Sue, that's not how it goes: (2) I believe it's *experienced* BSD people who should be cautious, because they have long-established systems to maintain, hundreds of customizations that could be lost, customers that could get pissed, etc, etc. Newbies should not only not just be careless, they should try anything and everything! Set aside a partition on your hard drive that you can "play with" without fear of losing anything important if you want to. Then throw caution to the wind and try everything! If you screw something up, you're a lucky person... you now have the opportunity to learn how to fix it, so if it happens again, you'll know what to do next time. Don't wait to build your own custom kernel; Do it immediately and see if it works! It's *easy* to recover from if it doesn't. Wipe your BSD partition on a regular basis and try different types of installations. Try the alpha releases of BSD and see how they work on your system. Try commands you've never seen before. Experiment. Play around. Make mistakes and learn how to fix those mistakes. If you don't, you will stay a newbie for a long time. So, oh list reader, which philosophy do *YOU* subscribe to? -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 04:41:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16144 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 04:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA16137 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 04:41:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06706; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:41:23 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980622214118.39744@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:41:18 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" References: <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:22:24AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:22:24AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > It's funny how Sue Blake and I have diametrically opposed philosophies > regarding how newbies should deal with BSD: Nope, I'm not biting :-) If you want to create an opponent you've come to the wrong person. It takes two to tango and frivolous conflict with enemies bores me, and with friends is a total waste of time. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 05:15:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19761 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 05:15:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19756 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 05:15:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup114.serv.net [205.153.153.143]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA17317 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 05:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980622051531.007fa5e0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 05:15:31 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" In-Reply-To: <19980622214118.39744@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This has nothing to do with you or me, and I'm sorry if you took it that way... I'm asking for a group opinion on two different PHILOSOPHIES, not two different people. It just so happens that our philosophies differ, and I'd like to know what the general consensus is regarding those philosophies - should newbies be careful, or should newbies experiment? I'm open to discussion, and closed to creating opponents. I don't want a fight with anyone, I want an on-topic discussion on how newbies should approach FreeBSD. Should they be cautious and not try new things for fear of messing up something, or should they go all out in playing around with their system? Perhaps the answer lies somewhere between the two. IMO, you and I lie on two different ends of a spectrum, from what I've gathered in your Emails and posts to this group. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned your name and just brought up the philosophies themselves, but it seemed a good starting point, since it's pretty clear you feel newbies should be cautious, and pretty clear I feel differently. ***PLEASE***, nobody consider this a choice between two people. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and neither my philosophy nor Sue's is "right" or "wrong." I'm just curious what others opinions on them are. At 09:41 PM 6/22/98 +1000, you wrote: >On Mon, Jun 22, 1998 at 02:22:24AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> >> It's funny how Sue Blake and I have diametrically opposed philosophies >> regarding how newbies should deal with BSD: > >Nope, I'm not biting :-) If you want to create an opponent you've come to >the wrong person. It takes two to tango and frivolous conflict with >enemies bores me, and with friends is a total waste of time. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 08:15:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15949 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:15:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.cc.duq.edu (root@mail.cc.duq.edu [165.190.8.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15919 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:15:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from skillet@nauticom.net) Received: from mvs.mrinet.com ([209.57.168.227]) by mail.cc.duq.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27655; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980622110410.008a1590@nauticom.net> X-Sender: skillet@nauticom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:04:10 -0400 To: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Mike Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980622051531.007fa5e0@mx.serv.net> References: <19980622214118.39744@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim, I tend to agree with your point on this issue.. As a fellow bsd somewhat newbie the best way that I have learned what I know today. Is from breaking stuff and fixing it.. teaches people more of the in's and outs of the OS.. well that is all for now I must rest in peace and get back to work Mike => To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 08:27:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17494 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:27:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17489 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:27:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11241; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:27:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id KAA06471; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:26:48 -0500 Message-ID: <19980622102648.10321@right.PCS> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:26:48 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... References: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Jun 06, 1998 at 12:56:04PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 06, 1998 at 12:56:04PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Still need to know: How to use multiple commands in csh aliases. For > example, in .cshrc, there are alias lines letting you set up your own > commands. I haven't been able to figure out how to execute more than one > command at a time using an alias. I want to be able to format, label and > mount a floppy disk in one operation, but everything I've tried as far as > setting an alias like "dofloppy" that performs those three operations has > failed. I've had to break them up into separate aliases. Any clues from > csh experts out there? If not, I'll try freebsd-questions next. Do you mean something like: alias dofloppy 'fdformat fd0; disklabel -w fd0 fd1440; mount /dev/rfd0 /mnt' Although I don't really recommend that; if one of the commands errors, the next is executed anyway, which is probably not what you want. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 09:52:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03282 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:52:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03249 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:52:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup540.serv.net [207.207.70.105]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04916; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980622094803.007fbb90@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:48:03 -0700 To: Jonathan Lemon From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980622102648.10321@right.PCS> References: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:26 AM 6/22/98 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Do you mean something like: > > alias dofloppy 'fdformat fd0; disklabel -w fd0 fd1440; mount /dev/rfd0 /mnt' Exactly! I thought I tried that syntax, but I'll try it again. >Although I don't really recommend that; if one of the commands >errors, the next is executed anyway, which is probably not what >you want. It wouldn't be a problem, just hit Ctrl-C to abort. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 10:04:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05159 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:04:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05088 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:03:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup512.serv.net [207.207.70.77]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA06255; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980622100342.007fb650@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:03:42 -0700 To: Jonathan Lemon From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980622102648.10321@right.PCS> References: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IT WORKED!!! Thank you so much for the help. I owe you one - Email me anytime if you have a question you think I might be able to help with, particularly something related to one of the Windows OS's, VB programming or hardware-related questions. I'd be happy to try and help with anything you need. ...and I really don't care if one of the commands fails and cause the others to fail as well - no harm done, just a couple of error messages. This was exactly what I was looking for. Tim At 10:26 AM 6/22/98 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Do you mean something like: > > alias dofloppy 'fdformat fd0; disklabel -w fd0 fd1440; mount /dev/rfd0 /mnt' > >Although I don't really recommend that; if one of the commands >errors, the next is executed anyway, which is probably not what >you want. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 11:23:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20308 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:23:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.impulse.net (mail.impulse.net [204.188.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA20186 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:23:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@merchantsnet.com) Received: (qmail 25799 invoked from network); 22 Jun 1998 18:22:51 -0000 Received: from sb1-52.impulse.net (HELO 708644668) (204.188.6.52) by mail.impulse.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 1998 18:22:51 -0000 From: "Michael P. Sale" To: "Nik Clayton" Cc: Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:18:07 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9e0a$1b171100$3406bccc@708644668> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> a. Fear of looking silly and don't think they can really contribute (yet) > >*How* do we break this barrier down? Part of it is trying to get people >not to be as sarcastic as they can be in -questions (anyone that saw a >response from caleb@ earlier today will know what I mean). Yes, it's always nice to find friendly people who need to prove their supiority lurking about. > >But what else? From a 'newbie' perspective, what would make you think that >your contribution was wanted? I really don't have a good answer to this. The truth is that I feel most newbie suggestions don't usually make very good contributions. Experience does tend to focus people a little better. For the most part, I think that most newbies recognize this as well. >From what I have seen in other newbie environments, multiple newbies working together end up making good contributions. As Sue has pointed out, this group has done a lot to further that thought. Again, I think that questions usually bring up more thought than simple discussions, because everybody wants to find an answer to a question while not everyone wants to participate in a discussion. The end result is that a question can turn into a better discussion than a started discussion can. Make sense? :-) > >> I also suspect that a newbies-questions group may allow some of the thoughts >> and input you are looking for. Free thinking unafraid questions tend to >> generate more thought and input than anything else I've found. > >I remain to be convinced about the value of a newbie-questions mailing >list. I suspect we will stay at odds here. I've listed so many reasons we should have a newbies-questions group in my previous emails I doubt I could even make some up at this point. > > 1. How do you know which list your message is more appropriate for? I think that it would be a slight problem, but not the one everyone is so worried about. The few questions that have been posted here have been pretty newbie in nature. > I suspect a lot of people with problems will post to both lists in the > hope that they'll catch someone who can help. Possible, but I think that it may be worth it for both the newbies and FreeBSD. > > The comp.unix.wizards newsgroup had the same problem. It was intended > for Unix wizards to swap wizardly ideas () but was swamped by > people trying to get help. I guess that's the problem with going into a meeting room with no doors. :-) > > 2. Presumably fewer people knowledgable in FreeBSD and/or Unix will > read newbie-questions -- the quality of advice would therefore be > correspondingly lower. At least with one -questions the focus is > more tight. In my world (which nobody lives in but me) this would not be the case. The same people that want to help people in questions should want to help newbie questions as well. I suspect this is not the case though. Sad really, when you consider all the puffing about that FreeBSD makes when claiming it wants to grow. > > 3. Other 'question' mailing lists (-multimedia, -scsi, -database) are > split along easily understood lines. If you've got a problem with your > SCSI drive then it makes more sense to post to -scsi than it does to > -questions. I agree totally. The problem lies in the fact that FreeBSD is nothing like those other list types. We are talking about a product that few people use and that has little docs and no offical support. It needs more than other products to ensure it's survival. >There's no reason -newbies can't be the kind of place for 'free thinking >unafraid questions' that you spoke of. > >However, IMHO, those questions should be of the "What if?" and "How about?" >variety, not the "How do I?" kind. "What if?" and "How about?" only come after the "how do I?". If you don't know how something works, it's nearly impossible, IMO to ask a coherent "what if?" and "How about?" question. OK, here's the deal. I've spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince Sue and now you of the need for such a list. I'll now be quiet for a while. I would however like to leave with a few thoughts on this. This is a little long, but well worth it.---------------------------------------------------- I believe that the reason we have such a different opionion on this is because I am looking at it from a business and newbie perspective while everyone else seems to be looking at it from a technical perspective. Businesses that are successfull usually START with one of four things. I'll try and keep it in a fairly recent OS context. 1. New product. (Linux) 2. Better product than what is available. (Linux again) Yes, I used it for new, but it was new and it was cheaper than a sun station AND better than Microsoft. 3. Great marketing no matter what the product is. (Microsoft) 4. Target the new audience. (RedHat) I am pretty sure it is the first Linux variant to commercially sell their product in retail stores (not counting books with CD's). They have made a tremendous effort to get their product into the hands of new linux users through ease of use and support. So, how are we doing in the success dept? 1. It is too late for FreeBSD to be new. 2. While it may be better than Linux in some areas it is not currently "better enough" to succeed at proving that it is better without #3. 3. I'll be amazed when I see FreeBSD get together enough to do some shows at the very least. Money seems to be a problem for such things. (I'm not subscribed to advocacy and don't know what's happening there) 4. From what I've seen so far, this is simply not being done. The fact that we are having such a lively discussion about a newbies-question and who would support it is pretty much proof enough. Now, on this subject, I did recently see greg's book and four CD set in a bookstore recently. YAY!!.......Oooops, nevermind. It sat there with a pricetag of $60.00 US while it's Linux counterparts were a mere $30.00 - $50.00 US. Hello? Anybody home in the FreeBSD marketing department? Having said that I'll tell you the number one thing that keeps a company or product from growing. 1. Me too. (FreeBSD) Me too is when you have a product that does not distiguish itself from other products at first glance and expects to gather customers by stealing them from another company/product simply because it MAY be better. IMO, this is the core of FreeBSD's problems. FreeBSD is a great OS for people that have some unix experience and want to try out an OS that they have heard is more stable and secure. These folks understand unix terminology and in general are not afraid to ask questions in NG's. Again, the problem is that THESE ARE TYPICALLY THE HARDEST CUSTOMERS TO CATCH. Most (read almost %0.1 here) company's that want to be successfull do not target these types of customers. (Witness cigarette ads directed at kids) So, having established (In my mind anyway) the fact that FreeBSD's number one chance for success is new customers, take a look around and figure out just what FreeBSD is doing to catch and keep those customers. Not a lot IMO. If you have an answer for this, I have a challenge for you. 1. Send out an email to all FreeBSD groups with this question. How many people on this list have been here for over a year and before installing FreeBSD themselves had never used a unix variant? This does not count people that simply walked into a shop that runs BSD and had to learn it with the help of co-workers. I'll bet that you get a minimal response. If FreeBSD only wants customers that are familiar with unix, so be it. They are doing a fine job. It will continue to be a "techie" OS that is slow growing and will probably never really catch on. I am beginning to think that this is exactly what most of the "elders" at FreeBSD really want. They are probably already overworked and simply don't have a lot of time for truly newbie questions. While technically, everyone may be right about some of the initial problems a newbies-questions list would cause, I firmly believe that from a business AND NEWBIE perspective (getting more people involved, understanding and staying with FreeBSD) a newbies-questions list is just a minimal first step in the correct direction. OK, I'll be quiet again. (This should keep Sue happy for a while. I think the last time I uttered that I disapeared for two months) :-) Till next time, Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 11:28:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21536 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:28:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21447 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:27:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29227; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:26:14 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806221826.LAA29227@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: fewtch@serv.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 02:22:24 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >It's funny how Sue Blake and I have diametrically opposed philosophies >regarding how newbies should deal with BSD: I think it's a false dichotomy. Folks who are experimenting or tinkering for its own sake should certainly feel free to do anything they want to/with their systems -- but if they're to do anything more useful than dabbling with Legos or making sand-castles, it would be appropriate for them to learn about the systems somewhat first. A good way to do this is by reading the documentation that's available -- in the case of FreeBSD, both FreeBSD-specific stuff as well as more generic *BSD- (& UNIX-) related things (the O'Reilly books, for example). Oh, yeah -- in the specific case of FreeBSD, it is becoming apparent to me that intimate knowledge of PC hardware esoterica is useful, and there are chunks of documentation that tend to assume that one has some familiarity with Microsoft environments (presumably for reasons, though these elude me). Folks who are building systems that will be used by others to do useful or important work should be a bit more methodical -- as should folks who actually hope to learn something from what they experience. Please note that one reason for learning about the experiences of others is so one may manage to avoid repeating others' mistakes. (Of course, if someone is bound and determined to make a mistake that someone else made & documented, perhaps just because said person wants to experience the mistake first-hand... well, fine, I guess... but the degree to which I'd be interested in helping a person with such a perverse desire is quite minimal.) This distinction isn't between (FreeBSD) "newbies" and others; further, I state (yet again) that "newbies" aren't necessarily all: * Already familiar with Microsoft environments * Already familiar with PC hardware * Clueless about UNIX (or other multi-user systems). Different folks have different backgrounds, strengths, and weaknesses. I would *think* that the sole "requirement" to be considered an appropriate target (hmmmm...) for a list called "freebsd-newbies" would be lack of familiarity with the FreeBSD variant of UNIX (or an interest in the trials & tribulations of those who are thus deprived of experience). I'm certainly willing to be convinced otherwise. david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 11:29:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21778 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:29:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21622 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:28:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrD-09.aei.ca [206.186.204.159]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02024; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358EA1DA.493C198B@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:26:34 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike CC: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" References: <19980622214118.39744@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980622110410.008a1590@nauticom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike wrote: > > Tim, > I tend to agree with your point on this issue.. As a fellow bsd somewhat > newbie the best way that I have learned what I know today. Is from breaking > stuff and fixing it.. teaches people more of the in's and outs of the OS.. > well that is all for now I must rest in peace and get back to work > > Mike => > I have reinstalled FreeBSD several time. Now FreeBSD take 10 minutes to resinstall ;-) I think its ok to broke and fix things, but only if you have a computer who have no important data and a lot of time. But I dont think its a good idea to go to current. What it will give you more? You dont know a lot of thing about un*x and you can learn a lot without current and its bug. FreeBSD-current is a devellopment version. Anyway, upgrade to current if you want, dont start a boring discution on it ;-) Malartre PS: I think Sue only want you read doc and man page *before* broke things and ask question. -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 11:36:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23386 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:36:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.impulse.net (mail.impulse.net [204.188.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA23246 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:35:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@merchantsnet.com) Received: (qmail 26857 invoked from network); 22 Jun 1998 18:35:41 -0000 Received: from sb1-52.impulse.net (HELO 708644668) (204.188.6.52) by mail.impulse.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 1998 18:35:41 -0000 From: "Michael P. Sale" To: , "Tim Gerchmez" Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:30:59 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9e0b$e7385720$3406bccc@708644668> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I'm open to discussion, and closed to creating opponents. I don't want a >fight with anyone, I want an on-topic discussion on how newbies should >approach FreeBSD. Tim, you seem to thrive on conflict AND opposition. After soundly thrashing Sue in public for a private email (among other things you say and do), I doubt you'll ever convince anyone that you don't like conflict. (Some people are just that way, accept it) I suspect that the level and intensity just depends on how much sleep, caffine, booze or whatever you happen to be living on that day effects you. >Should they be cautious and not try new things for fear >of messing up something, or should they go all out in playing around with >their system? Perhaps the answer lies somewhere between the two. IMO, you >and I lie on two different ends of a spectrum, from what I've gathered in >your Emails and posts to this group. IMHO, anyone should do anything they want with their personal computer wether they know the risks or not. An intelligent person finds out the risks before undertaking such a project, the other becomes intelligent after the project. Mommy can't be with you your entire life. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 16:37:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22555 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22474 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:36:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts1-22.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.54]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA15018; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:40:11 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur Reply-To: arthur To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980622051531.007fa5e0@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned your name and just brought up the > philosophies themselves, but it seemed a good starting point, since it's > pretty clear you feel newbies should be cautious, and pretty clear I feel > differently. > > ***PLEASE***, nobody consider this a choice between two people. Everyone > has a right to their opinion, and neither my philosophy nor Sue's is > "right" or "wrong." I'm just curious what others opinions on them are. > Well, you asked for it. I feel newbies should use the release since that's where the support is, but if you personally want to use the current, then knock yourself out, have a blast, but don't expect any "hand holding" with it, the FreeBSD team has already warned people about the consequences. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 16:37:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22584 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22488 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts1-22.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.54]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA14961; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:39:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:39:57 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur Reply-To: arthur To: "Michael P. Sale" cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support In-Reply-To: <01bd9e0a$1b171100$3406bccc@708644668> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Michael P. Sale wrote: > 1. Send out an email to all FreeBSD groups with this question. > > How many people on this list have been here for over a year and before > installing FreeBSD themselves had never used a unix variant? This does not > count people that simply walked into a shop that runs BSD and had to learn > it with the help of co-workers. > > I'll bet that you get a minimal response. > .... I'm finally crawling out of the woodwork, No I'm not really new to unix, but the only other varient I have used is quite basic compared to what FreeBSD has to offer, oh yeah, I've been kicking around these mail lists for about 1.5 years now. > If FreeBSD only wants customers that are familiar with unix, so be it. They > are doing a fine job. It will continue to be a "techie" OS that is slow > growing and will probably never really catch on. I am beginning to think > that this is exactly what most of the "elders" at FreeBSD really want. They > are probably already overworked and simply don't have a lot of time for > truly newbie questions. > I'm in 100% agreement with this statement, and I also feel that a properly run newbie-questions list would be very beneficial to the entire FreeBSD project. It would be a good place for people new to unix to cut their teeth and ready themselves for the overwhelming amount of mail that comes from subscribing to -questions. > While technically, everyone may be right about some of the initial problems > a newbies-questions list would cause, I firmly believe that from a business > AND NEWBIE perspective (getting more people involved, understanding and > staying with FreeBSD) a newbies-questions list is just a minimal first step > in the correct direction. > Initially there would be problems, but if the list was setup as experienced newbies helping newbies it just might have a chance. Also a list of this type hopefully would cut down some of the traffic in -questions and mellow out the atmosphere of that list also. > OK, I'll be quiet again. (This should keep Sue happy for a while. I think > the last time I uttered that I disapeared for two months) :-) > > Till next time, > > Mike > ... snicker, do you think Sue helped get -newbies started by disappearing for months at time ? ;) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 16:44:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24329 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:44:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24236 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:44:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18937; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:43:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980623004335.12833@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:43:35 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , Nik Clayton , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... References: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> <19980621234817.22444@nothing-going-on.org> <3.0.5.32.19980621215905.007fb8a0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980621215905.007fb8a0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:59:05PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Notwithstanding the fact that your question was inappropriate for this forum; On Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 09:59:05PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > I'm afraid I didn't find the answer where you said it was, or at least > couldn't figure out how to use it. I tried at least 30 or 40 different > forms of syntax as described in the man page section you mention and always > got error messages. You don't state this in your message. You don't say where you've looked for information. You don't say which bit of the documentation you found confusing. Your message came across as "I can't be bothered to look this up, I'll waste a few of everyone's resources by asking a question in the wrong place to the wrong audience." > Why the hell is it so hard just to get a simple answer sometimes? The people who answer questions are doing so because they want to. The answers you get are worth exactly what you pay for. > Either you get "Read the manual stupid, it's right there," >From csh(1): A simple command is a sequence of words, the first of which specifies the command to be executed. Great. A simple command, something like 'ls', or 'cd'. A simple command or a sequence of simple com- mands separated by `|' characters forms a pipeline. OK. One or more commands is called a 'pipeline'. A term worth remembering. We can string them together with the '|' character. The output of each command in a pipeline is connected to the input of the next. Possibly confusing. But you can ignore this for the time being. Sequences of pipelines may be separated by `;', and are then executed sequentially. You can connect pipelines together (and from *3* sentences ago we know what a pipeline is) by separating them with ';'. Problem solved. > "Ask in another group, we don't do questions here" or something similar. Perfectly valid. Try posting SCSI questions to the -multimedia mailing list and see how long people stay polite. People subscribe to mailing lists for specific reasons. Posting messages that are inappropriate to that forum are a burden on *everyone* who reads the list, and (IMHO) unless publically 'rebuked' serve to encourage others to do the same thing (which is the main reason I've cc'd the list with this message). > If someone asks *ME* a question that I can answer, I usually answer it > (and point out further resources at the same time for further learning). So do I. Usually. I ignore it if it's been answered many times before, particularly if a cursory search in the mailing list archives would turn up the answer. I ignore it if I don't know the answer. I didn't ignore yours -- mainly because I wanted to remind folks that questions in this forum are not appropriate. But I still included what I felt was enough information for you to find the answer yourself. Lest you think that I don't answer questions usefully, please consider the *long* response I wrote to you a few days ago in private mail about how to setup a FreeBSD network using private IP addresses and setting up a name demon -- I didn't send that response to the list, I sent it direct to you (although I notice that you quoted it fully when replying back to the list about it -- quoting private e-mail in public is frowned upon, and it would be appreciated if you didn't). > Yet all I ever get (here OR on freebsd-questions) is "it's in the > manual, it's in the manual, it's in the manual, it's in the manual, > it's in the manual." OBVIOUSLY... EVERYTHING ANYONE EVER NEEDS TO KNOW > IS IN A MANUAL OR BOOK SOMEWHERE, but time plays a factor as well. You are expected to read the manual. It's *far* more efficient on everyone's time if the information is written down in one place, rather than having to regurgitate it everyone time someone repeats a question. The FAQ/Handbook are *not* write-only documents. > I could keep trying different forms of syntax on those aliases (might > take me a week) until I got it, or could go spend $45 on a book to find > the answer to one question. That's certainly a recommended approach. > Why is it so hard to give someone a quick answer to a simple question, > so they can get on with what they're doing? Have you tried IRC? It's more suited to the kind of rapid-response that you seem to be expecting. To tie in two threads; I humbly suggest that this is the wrong attitude if you intend to run -current. As the documentation says, -current is effectively unsupported. If you run into problems with that *and are not prepared to read the documentation* you will hit problems sooner rather than later. The people who run -current *and* answer questions have a limited amount of free time, and are more likely to help out on interesting problems that other -current users are having, rather than problems probably generated by your own experience. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 17:08:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28832 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:08:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28738 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:07:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00408; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:06:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:06:53 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806230006.RAA00408@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: fewtch@serv.net, jlemon@americantv.com Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:48:03 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >> alias dofloppy 'fdformat fd0; disklabel -w fd0 fd1440; mount /dev/rfd0 >/mnt' >>Although I don't really recommend that; if one of the commands >>errors, the next is executed anyway, which is probably not what >>you want. >It wouldn't be a problem, just hit Ctrl-C to abort. In order to provide an alternative for folks whose circumstances are such that ^C isn't a reasonable course, I'll point out that ';' isn't the only command separator available. In particular, if the command is such that it generates a zero "return code" if and only if(*) it completes "successfully" -- that is, with no errors detected -- it may be useful to use either "&&" or "||" as a command separator. "&&" would be used for a situation where the command to the (immediate) right of the separator should be executed after the left-hand command has terminated with a zero return code. If the left-hand command terminates with a non-zero return code, the right-hand command will not be executed. An example of this usage would be for rebuilding the kernel, where I might type: config PAU-AMMA && cd ../../compile/PAU-AMMA && \ make depend && make && make install && reboot (except that I inserted the "\" and newline to make the result easier to read.) In this case, if an error is detected at any point in the process, progress stops, and I get to review things. I learned this trick from reviewing Geoff Collyer & Henry Spencer's shell scripts that they (mostly Geoff, as I recall) wrote for C News, around 1988 or so. Similarly, "||" would be used if the right-hand command is to be executed after the left-hand one has terminated with a non-zero return code -- like "foo || echo 'Oops -- something failed'". FAIR WARNING: Not all commands are well-behaved with respect to terminating with return codes that are useful for this type of thing. It is usual for different commands to be implemented by different (sets of) people for different reasons with different goals. If you are in doubt, test first... and check the documentation, as well, so that even if it happens to work once, it won't be because of dumb luck. Be careful of using "undocumented programming interfaces". If the actual behavior deviates from the documented behavior, become familiar with the command "send-pr" -- and *use* it (once you're sure you've encountered a real discrepancy between documented vs. actual behavior). * "if and only if" is used in the above in the sense in which it tends to be used in mathematics -- if either condition obtains, the other may logically be inferred; either follows from the other. david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 18:17:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09716 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:17:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09707 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:17:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-28.aei.ca [206.186.205.178]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA21517; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358F01AB.1BED3257@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:15:23 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arthur CC: "Michael P. Sale" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org arthur wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Michael P. Sale wrote: > > > > 1. Send out an email to all FreeBSD groups with this question. > > > > How many people on this list have been here for over a year and before > > installing FreeBSD themselves had never used a unix variant? This does not > > count people that simply walked into a shop that runs BSD and had to learn > > it with the help of co-workers. > > > > I'll bet that you get a minimal response. > > > .... I'm finally crawling out of the woodwork, No I'm not really new to > unix, but the only other varient I have used is quite basic compared to > what FreeBSD has to offer, oh yeah, I've been kicking around these mail > lists for about 1.5 years now. > > > If FreeBSD only wants customers that are familiar with unix, so be it. They > > are doing a fine job. It will continue to be a "techie" OS that is slow > > growing and will probably never really catch on. I am beginning to think > > that this is exactly what most of the "elders" at FreeBSD really want. They > > are probably already overworked and simply don't have a lot of time for > > truly newbie questions. > > > I'm in 100% agreement with this statement, and I also feel that a > properly run newbie-questions list would be very beneficial to the entire > FreeBSD project. It would be a good place for people new to unix to cut > their teeth and ready themselves for the overwhelming amount of mail that > comes from subscribing to -questions. > > > While technically, everyone may be right about some of the initial problems > > a newbies-questions list would cause, I firmly believe that from a business > > AND NEWBIE perspective (getting more people involved, understanding and > > staying with FreeBSD) a newbies-questions list is just a minimal first step > > in the correct direction. > > > Initially there would be problems, but if the list was setup as > experienced newbies helping newbies it just might have a chance. Also a > list of this type hopefully would cut down some of the traffic in > -questions and mellow out the atmosphere of that list also. > > > OK, I'll be quiet again. (This should keep Sue happy for a while. I think > > the last time I uttered that I disapeared for two months) :-) > > > > Till next time, > > > > Mike > > > ... snicker, do you think Sue helped get -newbies started by disappearing > for months at time ? ;) > Well, i agree for a good newbie-chat place. But there is that stupid question "what we will do on that channel?" Ok, I suggest A really chat channel -No hardware talking -Help on administration, but no-free answer: we should encourage man-page reading and doc reading. Like in an answer to an easy question, give an URL to a related page, but dont give the easy answer. If you do so, they will ask hundred of those kind of easy question. -FreeBSD related tips -usefull reading on FreeBSD, Unix and thing like that What do you think Sue ;-) Even if its an old topic Malartre -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 19:06:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02145 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02083 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:05:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-28.aei.ca [206.186.205.178]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29609 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358F0CEB.E0652D3E@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:03:23 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/ Ok, this is the BEST help I ever seen for un*x newbie and for anything. I think it's really intelligent: little, easy, fast, classified, etc... There is a *short* text who explain and a "Did you know?", "Exemple", "Problems?". Really good. Take the time to browse that Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 19:42:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07559 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (papillon.lemis.com [192.109.197.159]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07537 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id TAA00622; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980621192427.63054@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:24:27 -0700 From: Greg Lehey To: "Michael P. Sale" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: P.S. References: <01bd9b2a$5be4e0a0$3d06bccc@708644668> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <01bd9b2a$5be4e0a0$3d06bccc@708644668>; from Michael P. Sale on Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 07:31:26PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 June 1998 at 19:31:26 -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote: > What's up with this list. It seems to be taking a minimum of about an hour > for me to see my messages posted. I don't remember it being this slow > before. All FreeBSD mail goes via hub.FreeBSD.org. At any one time, between 50 and 200 messages are in the course of delivery. If one important machine, such as a relay, goes down, these delivery agents will spend longer trying to deliver before giving up. Under these circumstances, messages can take up to 12 hours to deliver. That's not a bug: mail isn't supposed to be an immediate medium. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 19:48:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08470 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:48:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (papillon.lemis.com [192.109.197.159]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08444 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id RAA00439; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 17:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980621175303.23465@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 17:53:03 -0700 From: Greg Lehey To: Chris Kaiser , "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Can't Make References: <358A900E.E71DCEC7@fltg.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <358A900E.E71DCEC7@fltg.net>; from Chris Kaiser on Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 12:21:34PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 June 1998 at 12:21:34 -0400, Chris Kaiser wrote: > I have been trying to compile ports. I have written to Greg Lehey > (trying to use his CFBSD) and Walnut Creek with out result. I've tried > doing this creating sym-links. I've tried this according the handbook > (p25), Complete FREBSD (p96), and his ever growing errata since the > book was wrong. I don't normally answer questions to -newbies, but since you mention my name, I'll make an exception. > I get the same error everytime. > As an example; xinvaders > > make install (from the xinvaders directory) > > /usr/ports/distfiles//xinvaders.tar.gz is a broken symlink > Perhaps a file system (most likely CD) isn't mounted? > Please correct problem. > Error code 1 You're not making it easy for anybody to help you. First, you claim "the book was wrong". Secondly, you don't say what you did to correct the problem. Did you mount the CD-ROM? You wrote me a message after this one saying that you couldn't get FreeBSD installed *at all*. I find it hard to understand how you could have got this far on an uninstalled system. I'd say "in addition, you sent a request for help to -newbies", but I can't see anything in this message which asks for any specific actions. I'm currently travelling, so I can't quote all URLs exactly, but you should check out http://www.lemis.com/newbies.html and Sue Blake's newbies FAK, which you may be able to find via http://www.welearn.com.au/ (or Sue may follow up with the correct URL). In both of these you'll find the underlying principle "FreeBSD helps those who help themselves". > The only way I can install anything is by using pkg_add from the > packages directory. This suggests that you do have the CD-ROM mounted. What directory did you mount it on? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 19:51:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09122 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:51:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09090 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:51:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from genisis@istar.ca) Received: from ts9-08.kin.istar.ca ([207.216.1.103] helo=genisis) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 0yoJBV-0005rP-00; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:51:50 -0400 Message-ID: <001e01bd9e52$4d896a00$6701d8cf@genisis> From: "Dru" To: "Malartre" Cc: Subject: Re: http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:54:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/ >Ok, this is the BEST help I ever seen for un*x newbie and for anything. >I think it's really intelligent: little, easy, fast, classified, etc... >There is a *short* text who explain and a "Did you know?", "Exemple", >"Problems?". Really good. > >Take the time to browse that >Malartre Good tip! Consider this site bookmarked. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 20:54:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18058 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17940 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pirat@prime.oaep.go.th) Received: from prime.oaep.go.th (slip202-135-22-187.sy.au.ibm.net [202.135.22.187]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA05588; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 03:53:51 GMT Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:54:03 +0700 (ICT) From: pirat sriyotha To: simon mendoza cc: Tim Parkinson , newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Horrible things, NIC's In-Reply-To: <19980621232453.12315.rocketmail@send1e.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, simon mendoza wrote: > ---pirat sriyotha wrote: > > > > > > hi, > > > > from my failure books, you must know what the factory setting of > port number > > and interrupt number of your NE2000 card. you have to know, to get > them by any > > means. then boot -cv and setting ed0 ( or ed1) to those two numbers. > > > > sure you have to edit /etc/rc.conf to set things up correctly before > > shutdown -r now. and hit dash see we, -cv, at boot prompt, boot: > > > > rgds, > > psr > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:51:05PM +0100, Tim Parkinson wrote: > > > Harumph, > > > > > > I just went out and bought a shiny new NE2000 compatible (read: > cheap) to go > > > alongside the one in my FreeBSD gateway, and replace the 3Com > 3c509 that had > > > been giving a bit of jip recently. I rolled up a nice new kernel, > changed > > > the startup stuff in /etc/rc.conf and rebooted -Aaaagh, complete > spasms. > > > Ifconfig refused to add the IP addresses and various other scary > problems > > > related to that. Finally, I have ifconfig adding the IP's but > still the > > > *naughty word-ing* thing is having problems. Grrr, I'm not happy. > > > > > > Note, this isn't a question. I just wanted to vent a little > frustration at > > > being a newbie and not being able to work out what is wrong! > > > > > > Still, I guess this is the best way to learn, have something fall > over and > > > have to get your hands dirty and fix it. > > > :( > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > Tim Parkinson -Teaching Company Associate > > > Nottingham Trent University & Clerical Gas Ltd > > > Tel: 0115 9783677 Fax: 0115 9706977 > > > tim.parkinson@ccr.ntu.ac.uk > > > tim@gubbins.ml.org -Home > > > > > >From experience on installing net (ne2000 compatible) cards I will > suggest booting from any msdos bootable diskette ( ver 5.0 or above) > and run the ezset.exe or config.exe setup program and select the > "display card configuration" so you will know the preset factory > setup. It usually gives you the IRQ 3 and Port address 0300-031F. > > Unfourtunately the diskettes that come with these net cards come with > dos configuration programs. Some day the same information willcome in > handy for us FreeBSD users. > this is really a very good news. today, i have to keep that floppy disk, dos edition, like a valuable treasure. as i know, there is no way to set a hardware port and irq number for ne2000 compatible from within freebsd-2.2.6. if one could get and set the same information from freebsd, that is good news. thanks to freebsd teams. rgds, psr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 21:31:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22347 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA22336 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjsan@bga.com) Received: (qmail 13588 invoked from network); 23 Jun 1998 04:30:40 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 23 Jun 1998 04:30:40 -0000 Received: from stevan (dial-87-2.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.219.114]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA09609 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:30:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199806230430.XAA09609@zoom.bga.com> X-Sender: sjsan@mailserv.bga.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:28:21 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Stevan S." Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980622022224.007f9260@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey All, I may be new to this list but I'm a experience user when it comes to the Internet (including mail-list, news groups, chat), software,computers, etc. But after I read this I had to agree with Tim. I don't understand why someone would not encourage users to try different things. If this was the case I would not be where I am at today. I remember the first PC I got and when I opened it up I did not dare touch anything. Well of course it came time to upgrade the PC and to save $ I did the upgrade myself. To my surprise it was very simple to do. In the past 3 years I came from Windows 3.* to Windows 95, and finally Windows NT. How did I get to Windows NT? Learning how to use it!!!! Not sitting on my ass and not listening to that person who say "no don't to that". To me it is a bunch of sh*t to be held down, not given the change to learn. Someone who discourages users to not trying something new really has no purpose here. I did not know anything about FreeBSD. After months or reading, searching and chatting with my Internet friends, I decided to buy FreeBSD. I had no clue on what to do or how to install it, etc. So I read, installed FreeBSD, CRASH FreeBSD, and Reinstall FreeBSD. Over I period of 2 week of trying, learning, crashing my system, asking questions and just simply giving it a shot....I have learned a lot about FreeBSD. Most of my real-life friends can't believe that I'm running a UNIX environment on my 2nd PC. The one thing that I notice right off when I joined this list was how a particular user would snap at users, slapping their hands if the did something wrong or something they did not like. I felt they are handling the situation the wrong way and proabaly would be better off they just kept they mouth shut because it is not productive. And if it is not productive then it is a waste of time. The bottom line is if a user wants to trying something new.....let them try. Isn't this supposed to be a learning experience even if you crash your system?!? It has for me. Cheers, Stevan At 02:22 AM 6/22/98 -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >(1) She believes newbies should act with caution; not play with >freebsd-current, be careful when trying new things, etc, for fear of >screwing up your system. She told me not to EVER encourage anyone with >less than 10 years experience to try freebsd-current, and stick with the >stable release only. Sorry, Sue, that's not how it goes: > >(2) I believe it's *experienced* BSD people who should be cautious, because >they have long-established systems to maintain, hundreds of customizations >that could be lost, customers that could get pissed, etc, etc. Newbies >should not only not just be careless, they should try anything and >everything! Set aside a partition on your hard drive that you can "play >with" without fear of losing anything important if you want to. Then throw >caution to the wind and try everything! If you screw something up, you're >a lucky person... you now have the opportunity to learn how to fix it, so >if it happens again, you'll know what to do next time. Don't wait to >build your own custom kernel; Do it immediately and see if it works! It's >*easy* to recover from if it doesn't. Wipe your BSD partition on a regular >basis and try different types of installations. Try the alpha releases of >BSD and see how they work on your system. Try commands you've never seen >before. Experiment. Play around. Make mistakes and learn how to fix >those mistakes. If you don't, you will stay a newbie for a long time. > >So, oh list reader, which philosophy do *YOU* subscribe to? > > >-- >My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - >lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > -- Stevan S. DoGmAx@irc sjsan@bga.com http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~aphex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 22 22:18:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27971 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27966 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:18:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09608; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:18:11 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980623151805.54628@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:18:06 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: Chris Kaiser , "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Can't Make References: <358A900E.E71DCEC7@fltg.net> <19980621175303.23465@papillon.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980621175303.23465@papillon.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 05:53:03PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 21, 1998 at 05:53:03PM -0700, Greg Lehey wrote: > I'm currently travelling, so I can't quote all URLs exactly, but you > should check out http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ > (or Sue may follow up with the correct URL). -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 02:07:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27420 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:07:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni-sb.de (uni-sb.de [134.96.252.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27338 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:07:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netchild@wurzelausix.cs.uni-sb.de) Received: from cs.uni-sb.de (cs.uni-sb.de [134.96.252.31]) by uni-sb.de (8.9.0/1998052000) with ESMTP id LAA07446 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:07:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wurzelausix.cs.uni-sb.de (vodix.cs.uni-sb.de [134.96.247.43]) by cs.uni-sb.de (8.9.0/1998060300) with ESMTP id LAA13013 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:07:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <358F7036.AE1F9B25@wurzelausix.cs.uni-sb.de> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:07:02 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger Organization: Uni-SB, Lehrstuhl für Rechnerarchitektur X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... References: <3.0.5.32.19980621125604.007f66c0@mx.serv.net> <19980622102648.10321@right.PCS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon wrote: > alias dofloppy 'fdformat fd0; disklabel -w fd0 fd1440; mount /dev/rfd0 /mnt' > > Although I don't really recommend that; if one of the commands > errors, the next is executed anyway, which is probably not what > you want. What about && instead of ; ? Bye, Alexander. -- 2^{F_{h+1}-1} z^{F_{h+2}-1} + 2^{F_{h+1}-2} L_{h-1} z^{F_{h+2}} + complicated terms + 2^{h-1} z^{2^h - 2} + z^{2^h - 1} Donald E. Knuth, "The Art of Computer Programming" http://fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de/~netchild mailto:netchild@studcs.uni-sb.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 07:10:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18726 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:10:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1a.yahoomail.com (send1a.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA18645 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:10:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon_v_mendoza@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980623140858.25101.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Received: from [128.58.111.30] by send1a; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:08:58 PDT Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:08:58 -0700 (PDT) From: simon mendoza Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support To: "Michael P. Sale" , arthur Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---arthur wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Michael P. Sale wrote: > > > > 1. Send out an email to all FreeBSD groups with this question. > > > > How many people on this list have been here for over a year and before > > installing FreeBSD themselves had never used a unix variant? This does not > > count people that simply walked into a shop that runs BSD and had to learn > > it with the help of co-workers. > > > > I'll bet that you get a minimal response. > > > .... I'm finally crawling out of the woodwork, No I'm not really new to > unix, but the only other varient I have used is quite basic compared to > what FreeBSD has to offer, oh yeah, I've been kicking around these mail > lists for about 1.5 years now. > > > If FreeBSD only wants customers that are familiar with unix, so be it. They > > are doing a fine job. It will continue to be a "techie" OS that is slow > > growing and will probably never really catch on. I am beginning to think > > that this is exactly what most of the "elders" at FreeBSD really want. They > > are probably already overworked and simply don't have a lot of time for > > truly newbie questions. > > > I'm in 100% agreement with this statement, and I also feel that a > properly run newbie-questions list would be very beneficial to the entire > FreeBSD project. It would be a good place for people new to unix to cut > their teeth and ready themselves for the overwhelming amount of mail that > comes from subscribing to -questions. > > > While technically, everyone may be right about some of the initial problems > > a newbies-questions list would cause, I firmly believe that from a business > > AND NEWBIE perspective (getting more people involved, understanding and > > staying with FreeBSD) a newbies-questions list is just a minimal first step > > in the correct direction. > > > Initially there would be problems, but if the list was setup as > experienced newbies helping newbies it just might have a chance. Also a > list of this type hopefully would cut down some of the traffic in > -questions and mellow out the atmosphere of that list also. > > > OK, I'll be quiet again. (This should keep Sue happy for a while. I think > > the last time I uttered that I disapeared for two months) :-) > > > > Till next time, > > > > Mike > > > ... snicker, do you think Sue helped get -newbies started by disappearing > for months at time ? ;) Excuse me guys, I don't tend to criticize you position, it just happens that there is nothing like an "experienced Newbie" or a "newbies perspective". What is an "experienced Newbie"?, once you have learned and know how to do something you are not "newbie" anymore. Probably you know less than an expert but certainly know more than a "newbie". Now if you want to establish levels of expertise just drop the word "newbie" and don't add adjectives to it. Use something more familiar like what they use at school: Newbie, sophmore, junior and experienced user. That should be fair, since you can catalogue things better and probably have a common ground for questioning. Now I don't see the problem if someone asks a simple question, but careful, one thing is a simple question that comes after a well documented and well reviewed operation of research and another very different (thing) is a simple question out of lazyness, just because it's easier to find someone to tell you what instead of finding it by yourself. That is why (I pressume) in this list is enphatically encouraged to all user to go first to all the sources of information (manuals, FAQs, Internet sites and so on) and once you have completed that "learning trip" than you will find that your simple question has got, if not an answer a level of expertise that I doubt a newbie can handle. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to put off anyone's idea of how things should be handle, I am just trying to make some sense out of this topic and if my opinions can help I would surely be pleased. Warm greetings to all Simon. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 07:17:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20105 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1c.yahoomail.com (send1c.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA20083 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:16:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon_v_mendoza@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980623141832.27430.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> Received: from [128.58.111.30] by send1c; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:18:32 PDT Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:18:32 -0700 (PDT) From: simon mendoza Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" To: Malartre , Mike Cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---Malartre wrote: > > Mike wrote: > > > > Tim, > > I tend to agree with your point on this issue.. As a fellow bsd somewhat > > newbie the best way that I have learned what I know today. Is from breaking > > stuff and fixing it.. teaches people more of the in's and outs of the OS.. > > well that is all for now I must rest in peace and get back to work > > > > Mike => > > > I have reinstalled FreeBSD several time. Now FreeBSD take 10 minutes to > resinstall ;-) > I think its ok to broke and fix things, but only if you have a computer > who have no important data and a lot of time. > But I dont think its a good idea to go to current. What it will give you > more? You dont know a lot of thing about un*x and you can learn a lot > without current and its bug. FreeBSD-current is a devellopment version. This is a very polite advise, I have to admit it is the best way for someone to know how things are, if they tried them by themself. Just be aware that if someone says to you "there's fire in a matchbox" don't go around playing with it in gas station. > Anyway, upgrade to current if you want, dont start a boring discution on > it ;-) > Malartre > PS: I think Sue only want you read doc and man page *before* broke > things and ask question. yes I agree with you in this respect. Greetings Simon. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 07:47:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26593 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:47:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26573 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:47:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14528; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:47:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id JAA28639; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:46:56 -0500 Message-ID: <19980623094656.44285@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:46:56 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: David Wolfskill Cc: fewtch@serv.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest discoveries... References: <199806230006.RAA00408@pau-amma.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199806230006.RAA00408@pau-amma.whistle.com>; from David Wolfskill on Jun 06, 1998 at 05:06:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 06, 1998 at 05:06:53PM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: > [ ... ] > > "&&" would be used for a situation where the command to the (immediate) > right of the separator should be executed after the left-hand command > has terminated with a zero return code. If the left-hand command > terminates with a non-zero return code, the right-hand command will not > be executed. > > [ ... ] > > FAIR WARNING: Not all commands are well-behaved with respect to > terminating with return codes that are useful for this type of thing. > It is usual for different commands to be implemented by different (sets > of) people for different reasons with different goals. If you are in > doubt, test first... and check the documentation, as well, so that even Yes, I'm aware of the boolean shortcircuit/linking operators, but the above paragraph is why I tend to shy away from them. I regularly use a mixture of at least 4 unix systems (Sequent, Sun, FreeBSD, HPUX), and the return codes are not exactly what I would call uniform across the various systems. My fingers tend to go faster than my brain, so sometimes I would rattle off a command and then thwap before a slow signal reached my fingers: "NO, not on _this_ system, you dolt!" Sigh. Just call me paranoid. And this probably isn't a -newbie topic either. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 08:54:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07410 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:54:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07313 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts1-20.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.52]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13486; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:57:14 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur To: simon mendoza cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support In-Reply-To: <19980623140858.25101.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, simon mendoza wrote: > Excuse me guys, I don't tend to criticize you position, it just > happens that there is nothing like an "experienced Newbie" or a > "newbies perspective". What is an "experienced Newbie"?, once you have > learned and know how to do something you are not "newbie" anymore. > Probably you know less than an expert but certainly know more than a > "newbie". Well I guess I was thinking of myself there, experienced with unix, but not FreeBSD's varient. But let's kill this one here and now before it becomes one of those long pointless threads. > Now if you want to establish levels of expertise just drop the word > "newbie" and don't add adjectives to it. Use something more familiar > like what they use at school: Newbie, sophmore, junior and experienced > user. That should be fair, since you can catalogue things better and > probably have a common ground for questioning. Now I don't see the > problem if someone asks a simple question, but careful, one thing is a > simple question that comes after a well documented and well reviewed > operation of research and another very different (thing) is a simple > question out of lazyness, just because it's easier to find someone to > tell you what instead of finding it by yourself. That is why (I > pressume) in this list is enphatically encouraged to all user to go > first to all the sources of information (manuals, FAQs, Internet sites > and so on) and once you have completed that "learning trip" than you > will find that your simple question has got, if not an answer a level > of expertise that I doubt a newbie can handle. > Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to put off anyone's idea of how > things should be handle, I am just trying to make some sense out of > this topic and if my opinions can help I would surely be pleased. > All opinions are welcome, that much I've seen here, but I think this topic of "how much help do we give newbies" is going to be a thread that will get kicked around for awhile. But that topic also is sitting on a very fine line, I'm sure we all want to help people get started with FreeBSD but at the same time we don't want to be hand holding. I guess what I was looking for is a polite way to get people to do the research before they post a "how do I get X started" type question to -questions. I've been lurking around too long, I feel it's time to try to help a little when/if I can. So let's keep the opinions coming, with time we'll be able to come up with a solution, while at the same time showing people new to unix and or FreeBSD that we are there for them, and most have also gone through the problems they are experiencing. ltr - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 09:36:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15241 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bb.cc.wa.us (chris@bb.cc.wa.us [134.39.181.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15189 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:36:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@bb.cc.wa.us) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by bb.cc.wa.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA21367 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:32:13 GMT Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:32:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Coleman To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: resources for Newbies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Could you add my web site as a resource for newbies. http://www.vmunix.com/fbsd-book/ Christopher J. Coleman (whyareyou@lookingforme.com) Computer Support Analyst I (509)-762-6341 FreeBSD Book Project: http://www.vmunix.com/fbsd-book/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 10:05:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21481 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1c.yahoomail.com (send1c.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA21462 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:05:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon_v_mendoza@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980623170709.29062.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> Received: from [128.58.111.30] by send1c; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:07:09 PDT Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:07:09 -0700 (PDT) From: simon mendoza Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support To: arthur Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---arthur wrote: > > All opinions are welcome, that much I've seen here, but I think this > topic of "how much help do we give newbies" is going to be a thread that > will get kicked around for awhile. But that topic also is sitting on a > very fine line, I'm sure we all want to help people get started with > FreeBSD but at the same time we don't want to be hand holding. > > I guess what I was looking for is a polite way to get people to do the > research before they post a "how do I get X started" type question to > -questions. > > I've been lurking around too long, I feel it's time to try to help a > little when/if I can. > > So let's keep the opinions coming, with time we'll be able to come up > with a solution, while at the same time showing people new to unix and > or FreeBSD that we are there for them, and most have also gone through > the problems they are experiencing. > > ltr > superbly said friend. Simon. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 11:00:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01042 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:00:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca [24.64.63.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01031 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from purebeef@shaw.wave.ca) Received: from shaw.wave.ca ([24.64.141.116]) by norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA24639; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:01:10 -0400 Message-ID: <358FECEA.B579208C@shaw.wave.ca> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:59:07 -0400 From: Lanny Baron Organization: York Hill Foods X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Malartre , "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support References: <358F01AB.1BED3257@aei.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Malartre wrote: > arthur wrote: > > > It will continue to be a "techie" OS that is slow > > > growing and will probably never really catch on. I am beginning to think > > > that this is exactly what most of the "elders" at FreeBSD really want. They > > > are probably already overworked and simply don't have a lot of time for > > > truly newbie questions. > > > > > Hi, I have used FreeBSD since the 1.1.5 version. The following only applies to me. As much as I really Love FreeBSD, it is a very techie OS. I have had a LOT of help from people such as Jordan Hubbard and Greg Lehey. The biggest problem that I face is a lack of understanding of the basics. The other big problem is that once the system is started, I want to do 50 things at once. That for sure is no help in learning the intricacies of FreeBSD. As far as help is concerned. It is assumed that any user to FreeBSD will take the time to read the appropriate MAN page for his/her problem. Sometimes I find that the man page is very technical in nature and implies you know quite a bit already. I am NOT knocking our MAN pages. I have been told on some IRC channels that our (FreeBSD's) MAN pages are excellent compared to some other variant UNIX os's. And on the topic of help, there is a channel on the efnet (IRC) called #freebsd which I regularly frequent (and frequently get banned). I have received excellent help from some of the users there. I must mention Genesys, as he telneted to my pc and fixed a few things. Now I would like to see Microsoft do that. As we all know that is not going to happen. Albeit #freebsd is not the official help center for FreeBSD users. But it is a great place to learn a few things. The other problem is that of the case of the person who has ants in his pants and can't sit and learn well. That case is mine. Its called attention deficit disorder. Nonetheless, FreeBSD will grow when it can do a larger marketing concept. But then that costs big bucks....anyone want to pitch in? FreeBSD is a marvelous creation. It causes one to actually use the greatest gift we all have.....our brain (although some like mine are a little dysfunctional) Cheers... Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 11:32:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07380 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07280 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:31:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrF-32.aei.ca [206.186.205.32]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10439; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358FF42E.EFCA75C1@aei.ca> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:30:06 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lanny Baron CC: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support References: <358F01AB.1BED3257@aei.ca> <358FECEA.B579208C@shaw.wave.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lanny Baron wrote: > > Malartre wrote: > > > arthur wrote: > > > > > It will continue to be a "techie" OS that is slow > > > > growing and will probably never really catch on. I am beginning to think > > > > that this is exactly what most of the "elders" at FreeBSD really want. They > > > > are probably already overworked and simply don't have a lot of time for > > > > truly newbie questions. > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > I have used FreeBSD since the 1.1.5 version. The following only applies to > me. As much as I really Love FreeBSD, it is a very techie OS. I have had a LOT of > help from people such as Jordan Hubbard and Greg Lehey. The biggest problem that I > face is a lack of understanding of the basics. The other big problem is that once > the system is started, I want to do 50 things at once. That for sure is no help in > learning the intricacies of FreeBSD. > > As far as help is concerned. It is assumed that any user to FreeBSD will > take the time to read the appropriate MAN page for his/her problem. Sometimes I > find that the man page is very technical in nature and implies you know quite a bit > already. I am NOT knocking our MAN pages. I have been told on some IRC channels > that our (FreeBSD's) MAN pages are excellent compared to some other variant > UNIX os's. > > And on the topic of help, there is a channel on the efnet (IRC) called #freebsd > which I regularly frequent (and frequently get banned). I have received excellent > help from some of the users there. I must mention Genesys, as he telneted to my pc > and fixed a few things. Now I would like to see Microsoft do that. As we all know > that is not going to happen. Albeit #freebsd is not the official help center for > FreeBSD users. But it is a great place to learn a few things. > > The other problem is that of the case of the person who has ants in his pants > and can't sit and learn well. That case is mine. Its called attention deficit > disorder. > > Nonetheless, FreeBSD will grow when it can do a larger marketing concept. But > then that costs big bucks....anyone want to pitch in? > > FreeBSD is a marvelous creation. It causes one to actually use the greatest > gift we all have.....our brain (although some like mine are a little dysfunctional) > > Cheers... > Lanny Hey, my brain to is disfunctionnal and I have ants in pants. Some time I think it's mouse who are in my pants! ;-) Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 11:54:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12153 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:54:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12083 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19248; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06148; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:54:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell1.cybercom.net: ksmm owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:54:03 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive X-Sender: ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net To: arthur cc: "Michael P. Sale" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, arthur wrote: : It would be a good place for people new to unix to cut their teeth and : ready themselves for the overwhelming amount of mail that comes from : subscribing to -questions. This is a joke, right? As much mail as we generate needlessly debating why newbies should have their own question lists, I've had to install new e-mail filters just to keep track of it all. And while I'm up on the soapbox, why is everyone so afraid of asking questions in FreeBSD-Questions? The worst that you'll get is ignored or a standard RTM response. So what? You're all adults. Deal with it. Besides, two lists requires people to make judgements on whether a question is for the newbies or advanced enough to make -Questions. And if the e-mail on this list is any indication, I might as well just get a job as a greeter in Level One of Tim's Seven Circles of UNIX Knowledge because I'll never make it to Level Two. K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 13:10:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25878 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:10:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25792 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:09:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19315; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA06218; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:09:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell1.cybercom.net: ksmm owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:09:36 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive X-Sender: ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net To: Malartre cc: arthur , "Michael P. Sale" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support In-Reply-To: <358F01AB.1BED3257@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Malartre wrote: : Well, i agree for a good newbie-chat place. : But there is that stupid question "what we will do on that channel?" : Ok, I suggest : : A really chat channel : -No hardware talking : -Help on administration, but no-free answer: we should encourage : man-page reading and doc reading. Like in an answer to an easy question, : give an URL to a related page, but dont give the easy answer. If you do : so, they will ask hundred of those kind of easy question. : -FreeBSD related tips : -usefull reading on FreeBSD, Unix and thing like that They have a list like that. It's called FreeBSD-Chat. Enjoy! K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 14:32:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12347 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:32:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12289 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts1-12.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.44]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA07990; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:36:07 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur Reply-To: arthur To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, arthur wrote: > > : It would be a good place for people new to unix to cut their teeth and > : ready themselves for the overwhelming amount of mail that comes from > : subscribing to -questions. > > This is a joke, right? As much mail as we generate needlessly debating > why newbies should have their own question lists, I've had to install new > e-mail filters just to keep track of it all. > Well .... if it made you laugh, yes, it was a joke ;) ... since most of my normal jokes get nothing more than a mild snicker. > And while I'm up on the soapbox, why is everyone so afraid of asking > questions in FreeBSD-Questions? The worst that you'll get is ignored or > a standard RTM response. So what? You're all adults. Deal with it. > .. Personally I've never had to ask any questions, I've been able to find evrything I need in the faq and handbook, and sometimes with the advice of a good friend that I introduced to FreeBSD, he just happens to be one of those born computer geniuses that can make a computer sit up and bark if he wants, but that's getting onto another story. There is something we have to keep in mind here though, and that is the new generation of net users that started using computers knowing only a gui environment. This is something I have to keep reminding myself since not everyone has been using computers for a decade or more and has seen MS's products grow into the monster it is. I am in no way trying to put down those unfortunate souls that got into computers later than I, but we do have to remember that the easier MS's products became the harder it is to go to something else that takes a little work to setup. What I mean by a little work to setup is when you just download the needed files to start a FreeBSD system. I haven't had the opportunity to get my hands on the FreeBSD cds yet, so I can't say what it's like to setup from those, but I'm sure it's easier than downloading everything and going from there. Must be quicker if nothing else, but then again I've never found FreeBSD hard to setup or use, so I think I'll end this ramble here. > Besides, two lists requires people to make judgements on whether a > question is for the newbies or advanced enough to make -Questions. And if > the e-mail on this list is any indication, I might as well just get a job > as a greeter in Level One of Tim's Seven Circles of UNIX Knowledge because > I'll never make it to Level Two. > > K.S. Great, you interested in starting a level 1 club, if so I want to join :) But seriously, trying to decide on what list a question would go to is the major problem. But as some others have mentioned, two question lists would be a waste, so what can we do ? ... what can we do to make this unix varient more appealing to new users. I deffinately don't want this operating system to fall to the gutter, it's all I've been using since I've found it, and I'll be damned if I'm going to give up on it. I can't believe I've gotten myself tied up in a thread :) ... let's keep those opinions coming, that's the only way anything can get started, unless this thread is out of topic for the newbies list .... oops, what did I do with that charter .. :) ltr - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 15:12:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19967 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from info1.info.tampere.fi (lmkjuksi@info1.info.tampere.fi [212.63.6.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19913 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:11:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lmkjuksi@info1.info.tampere.fi) Received: (from lmkjuksi@localhost) by info1.info.tampere.fi (8.9.0/8.9.0) id BAA14939; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:13:59 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:52:56 +0300 (EEST) From: Jukka Simila To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & suppor + a test :) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hiya all! I have followed this conversation (?) with my left eye and now there was a single sentence that woke me up. Also I decided to make a simple TEST to verify if I can send mail. A little bit about me: I've had fbsd 2.2.5-Rel on CD for about half years now, but I got a modem bout two weeks ago. (Now I can't realize how there can be live without network, yesterday my ISP f****d up and I was f****d up too, couldn't think out what to do without net.) I use PC's just for fun & learning - I mean I get fun from learning new things with comp's. Anyway - maybe i sometimes mail something but i think i'll do it seldom. On 23-Jun-98 The Classiest Man Alive wrote: >And while I'm up on the soapbox, why is everyone so afraid of asking >questions in FreeBSD-Questions? The worst that you'll get is ignored or >a standard RTM response. So what? You're all adults. Deal with it. - in fact, we ain't all adults. (in case 18-year-old is an adult)(i'm 17) (btw, i'm not afraid of asking questions in fbsdquestions) :) ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Jukka Simila Date: 24-Jun-98 Time: 00:52:56 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 16:04:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28186 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:04:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28065 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:03:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12020; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:03:29 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980624090322.40647@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:03:22 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Chris Coleman Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: resources for Newbies References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Coleman on Tue, Jun 23, 1998 at 09:32:12AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 23, 1998 at 09:32:12AM -0700, Chris Coleman wrote: > Could you add my web site as a resource for newbies. > > http://www.vmunix.com/fbsd-book/ Hmm.. looks like it's temporarily off line. I'll take a look later. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 18:12:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19380 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:12:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA19344 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup618.serv.net [207.207.65.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA01738 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980623181159.007f6100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:11:59 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Fave Window Manager... found it. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Finally settled on a favorite Window manager, one that's neither too complicated nor too feature-free for this newbie -- it happens to be fvwm2 (no laughing, now, this is fvwm2, not plain old fvwm). I spent a good part of the day today configuring it the way I like (getting colors of different things to all look good together is tough if you're not a graphic designer or used to designing GUIs). Looks pretty nice, runs what I want it to run, can be easily configured to run anything else, and the built in modules are nice (except that the 'backer' module seems broken - it doesn't work the way it's stated in the docs, and won't change desktop background colors, nor set a pixmap for a background. Any info on this from anyone in the know? BTW, for those who want a REALLY simple but basically featureless window manager, ctwm might be the choice for you... might be good for a REALLY raw newbie. It's so simple and easy to use it's disgusting, but you can't do anything much with it. Tried Afterstep and Windowmaker and decided I didn't much care for either - couldn't figure them out, really... (expecially Windowmaker.. gave me all kinds of headaches trying to get icons onto new program 'squares'), and Enlightenment is just too ridiculously graphical for my tastes. Fvwm95 isn't bad, but why use a fake imitation of Win95... and KDE was completely beyond me (I couldn't even get it up and running except for a brief flash of the desktop followed by being kicked back out of X)...so fvwm2 it is until I graduate from newbie to intermediate status anyway. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 18:16:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19999 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA19982 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup618.serv.net [207.207.65.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA02067 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980623181617.007fe9c0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:16:17 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Need a tip - X equiv. of Eudora? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Say, what's the best POP client for Email under X? Looking for something similar to Eudora in Windows. Already found my favorite FTP client, 'ftptool'... now I need something similar for Email in X. I'll hunt around and try some different clients, but any tips? -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 18:26:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21600 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:26:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21527 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:26:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup618.serv.net [207.207.65.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA02705; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980623182539.007faa50@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:25:39 -0700 To: David Wolfskill From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806221826.LAA29227@pau-amma.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 AM 6/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >I think it's a false dichotomy. > >Folks who are experimenting or tinkering for its own sake should >certainly feel free to do anything they want to/with their systems -- >but if they're to do anything more useful than dabbling with Legos or >making sand-castles, it would be appropriate for them to learn about the >systems somewhat first. A good way to do this is by reading the >documentation that's available -- I can appreciate your point of view on this, but personally I've always gotten more out of just jumping in and playing around than by reading documentation. I think this is a personal thing, and different people learn better in different ways. >Folks who are building systems that will be used by others to do useful >or important work should be a bit more methodical -- as should folks who >actually hope to learn something from what they experience. Sure, but a newbie won't likely be doing anything terribly important with their system and won't likely be installing BSD for others who need solid systems... so why be methodical? >Please note that one reason for learning about the experiences of others >is so one may manage to avoid repeating others' mistakes. It's very difficult for many people to "learn" from the mistakes of others. Most people I know have to make the mistake themselves before they really get it - otherwise, it's a very shallow and easily forgotten lesson. >Different folks have different backgrounds, strengths, and weaknesses. This I agree with completely. >I would *think* that the sole "requirement" to be considered an >appropriate target (hmmmm...) for a list called "freebsd-newbies" would >be lack of familiarity with the FreeBSD variant of UNIX (or an interest >in the trials & tribulations of those who are thus deprived of >experience). I'm certainly willing to be convinced otherwise. You won't be from me, as I agree with you. In fact, someone might have 20 years of experience with Linux or a commercial Unix and just starting with FreeBSD, and appropriately be called a FreeBSD newbie. Good points, thanks. I guess the way people should approach learning BSD depends greatly on their experience in other areas (hardware, other OS's, etc). -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 18:31:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22589 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:31:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22578 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:31:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup618.serv.net [207.207.65.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA03066; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980623183037.00806670@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:30:37 -0700 To: "Michael P. Sale" From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <01bd9e0b$e7385720$3406bccc@708644668> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:30 AM 6/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >>I'm open to discussion, and closed to creating opponents. I don't want a >>fight with anyone, I want an on-topic discussion on how newbies should >>approach FreeBSD. > >Tim, you seem to thrive on conflict AND opposition. To a certain extent this is true (and has gotten me in trouble several times elsewhere - I won't get into the gory details)... however, in this particular case I didn't intend to have people take sides between myself and Sue, simply to discuss our seemingly opposite philosophies. I truly didn't want to start a fight, just a discussion. I thrive on discussion of controversial topics and listening to people's strong opinions on things MUCH more than I thrive on *personal* conflict. I don't like fighting with people... but I love to wrestle with ideas :-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 19:03:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28461 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28412 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:03:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pirat@prime.oaep.go.th) Received: from prime.oaep.go.th (slip202-135-22-157.sy.au.ibm.net [202.135.22.157]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA96324; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:03:04 GMT Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:03:53 +0700 (ICT) From: pirat sriyotha To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980623181159.007f6100@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, good news. but i have never heard of Fave Window Manager... well, you've got it, fvwm2. so you should go ahead with xemacs. try this hot one and let us know some of your comments. oh yes, xemacs is not a window manager. just try this editor once you've got your favorite wm. i love reading from newbies discussion. rgds, psr On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:11:59 -0700 > From: Tim Gerchmez > To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Fave Window Manager... found it. > > Finally settled on a favorite Window manager, one that's neither too > complicated nor too feature-free for this newbie -- it happens to be fvwm2 > (no laughing, now, this is fvwm2, not plain old fvwm). I spent a good part > of the day today configuring it the way I like (getting colors of different > things to all look good together is tough if you're not a graphic designer > or used to designing GUIs). Looks pretty nice, runs what I want it to run, > can be easily configured to run anything else, and the built in modules are > nice (except that the 'backer' module seems broken - it doesn't work the > way it's stated in the docs, and won't change desktop background colors, > nor set a pixmap for a background. Any info on this from anyone in the know? > > BTW, for those who want a REALLY simple but basically featureless window > manager, ctwm might be the choice for you... might be good for a REALLY raw > newbie. It's so simple and easy to use it's disgusting, but you can't do > anything much with it. > > Tried Afterstep and Windowmaker and decided I didn't much care for either - > couldn't figure them out, really... (expecially Windowmaker.. gave me all > kinds of headaches trying to get icons onto new program 'squares'), and > Enlightenment is just too ridiculously graphical for my tastes. Fvwm95 > isn't bad, but why use a fake imitation of Win95... and KDE was completely > beyond me (I couldn't even get it up and running except for a brief flash > of the desktop followed by being kicked back out of X)...so fvwm2 it is > until I graduate from newbie to intermediate status anyway. > > Tim > > > -- > My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - > lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 19:22:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02116 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02080 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:22:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup618.serv.net [207.207.65.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA06614; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980623192107.0080cce0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:21:07 -0700 To: pirat sriyotha From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980623181159.007f6100@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You know, I did install Xemacs, tried it and found that I had no use right now for such a powerful text editor. Geez this thing is big and bulky too (took 20-30 megs on my system!). So for now I erased it. When I'm ready to start doing some programming or need a really powerful editor I will re-install it. For now, I'm watching my disk space. I more need a good POP Email client than a text editor. BTW, anyone who wants a copy of my .fvwm2rc file to see my setup so far, let me know - I'd have to FTP it to you since I'm not doing Email from BSD yet (haven't found a client). You'd need a copy of asclock, since this is one of the things I load at startup (nicest X clock I've seen for BSD so far). P.S.. 'fave' is slang for 'favorite', so I was saying I found my favorite window manager. P.P.S... have you used fvwm2 and found any way to get the 'backer' module to work correctly?? At 09:03 AM 6/24/98 +0700, pirat sriyotha wrote: >hi, > >good news. > >but i have never heard of Fave Window Manager... >well, you've got it, fvwm2. so you should go ahead with xemacs. try this >hot one and let us know some of your comments. > >oh yes, xemacs is not a window manager. just try this editor once you've >got your favorite wm. > >i love reading from newbies discussion. > >rgds, >psr -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 19:41:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04189 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04179 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup618.serv.net [207.207.65.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08017 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980623194122.007fc100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:41:22 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Some more OS comparisons... Win NT is a bloated pig :-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a triple boot system (Win95 OSR2, NT4 workstation and FreeBSD 2.2.6), so I thought I'd try a test... I set up only a 10 meg swap file under Windows NT, even though it recommends 75 minimum. I have 64 megs of RAM in my machine, so this gave NT 74 megs of RAM to play with. Well, running nothing but Netscape and connected to my ISP, I got a message that I was out of swap space and to close some apps. Can you believe this.. running ONE application, and NT (workstation 4.0 service pack 3) is eating 74 megabytes of RAM and hungry for more. I only had the Netscape memory cache set to 1 megabyte, so that wasn't an issue. Now, this is bloatware at its worst.. hehehehe.. Hmm, if I wanted to run an Internet server on NT (shudder)... I wouldn't try it with less than between 512 megs and a gigabyte of real RAM, with an 8 gig swapfile minimum (and I bet all 8 gigs of that would be in constant use)... FreeBSD... I doubt I've ever hit my swapfile yet, even running X and several apps at the same time. Same with Win95, I rarely hit my swapfile... except that BSD is even 'lighter' than Win95, I think... and much more powerful. So there's an interesting comparison of 3 OS's, and the winner once again is... FREEBSD... For ease of use and hardware support though I like Win95, so it remains my most commonly used OS... easy to set up, easy to use, productive (if you can avoid crashes - actually, not so bad with the OSR2 version, a lot of bugs were fixed), comes with drivers for everything... but I wouldn't run a server on it for more than one or two incoming connections, do anything but light (RAD type such as Visual Basic) programming on it, or anything else that requires that the machine multitask smoothly and remain stable at all times. Once again, I still need to do Win32 programming for some extra income, so NT and 95 stay on my machine, but I am gravitating more toward BSD as time goes on and I learn more. That kind of power and stability has some really serious benefits. Now, I wish it supported my sound card, scanner and Syquest SparQ drive... maybe in release 3.0... Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 19:51:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05864 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:51:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05852 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup618.serv.net [207.207.65.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08731; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980623195124.008076a0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:51:24 -0700 To: Zach Heilig From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980623212743.A10294@znh.org.> References: <3.0.5.32.19980623181159.007f6100@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980623181159.007f6100@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not familiar with twm, I don't even know if I tried it or not. There are a lot of window managers out there... I think the thing that attracts people to KDE is that it comes with all kinds of extra utilities and goodies that the others don't. But the more window managers I try, the more alike all of them seem to me, except for "on the face"... and even there, they are a lot of similarities. The thing I like about fvwm2 is that you don't need to mess much with icons (see below) and can set up pop-up menus instead (extremely easy to configure in .fvwm2rc), which I greatly prefer to keeping track of icons for everything. One problem with X in general I've found is locating pixmaps/icons for all your apps and getting all the paths straight... I have pixmaps stored all over my hard drive in various locations. Something needs to be done about this in a future release of X... some kind of central pixmap/icon repository or something - it could get out of hand with having 40 or 50 different directories containing pixmaps and other icons scattered all over the place. Anyway, I'm CC'ing this to the list, I hope you don't mind. You sent it directly to me but I didn't see anything personal in it. At 09:27 PM 6/23/98 -0500, Zach Heilig wrote: >On Tue, Jun 23, 1998 at 06:11:59PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> isn't bad, but why use a fake imitation of Win95... and KDE was completely >> beyond me (I couldn't even get it up and running except for a brief flash >> of the desktop followed by being kicked back out of X)...so fvwm2 it is >> until I graduate from newbie to intermediate status anyway. > >KDE has some big problems setting up. What helped me a lot was realizing it >put error messages in the file '~/.xsession-errors'. > >I still did not like it very much after getting it to work. I finally settled >back on twm. It comes with X, and I already had menus set up I've been using >for several years. And, it doesn't cover the desktop with useless clutter. > >There are some programs that need to be run in ~/.xinitrc (or ~/.xsession-- I >forget which kde uses) to make kde work right. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 20:21:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10523 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bb.cc.wa.us (chris@bb.cc.wa.us [134.39.181.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10497 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:21:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@bb.cc.wa.us) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by bb.cc.wa.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA23286; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:17:46 GMT Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:17:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Sue Blake cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: resources for Newbies In-Reply-To: <19980624090322.40647@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, Jun 23, 1998 at 09:32:12AM -0700, Chris Coleman wrote: > > Could you add my web site as a resource for newbies. > > > > http://www.vmunix.com/fbsd-book/ > > Hmm.. looks like it's temporarily off line. I'll take a look later It was on-line when I checked it. :-) Maybe you just had a slow DNS or a lagged connection. Sometimes you have to check the same URL twice to get an authortative DNS answer. > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > Christopher J. Coleman (whyareyou@lookingforme.com) Computer Support Analyst I (509)-762-6341 FreeBSD Book Project: http://www.vmunix.com/fbsd-book/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 20:57:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17400 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17379 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:57:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id XAA16152; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:57:20 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts003d05.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.65]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id XAA29000; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35907A2A.361F@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:01:46 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need a tip - X equiv. of Eudora? References: <3.0.5.32.19980623181617.007fe9c0@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: Pine works. guess it depends on what you want to do. A multitude of mail apps in ports. The best? A multitude of opinions. Duke > Say, what's the best POP client for Email under X? Looking for something > similar to Eudora in Windows. Already found my favorite FTP client, > 'ftptool'... now I need something similar for Email in X. I'll hunt around > and try some different clients, but any tips? > > -- > My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - > lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 21:10:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19585 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA19483 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id AAA08789; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:09:35 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts003d05.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.65]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id AAA02629; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35907D08.4883@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:14:00 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: "Michael P. Sale" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" References: <3.0.5.32.19980623183037.00806670@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: Its interesting. Most of your posts I delete without the thought of comment. The one others seemed to object to most--I liked. Perhaps because philosophy--a thing people deny knowing anything about even as they practice their own--is my first appreciation in life and the reason Unix came through so clear. Unix _is_ a philosophy. You and Sue were both right. Nothing productive--meaning buy groceries--to do within the system, learn to your hearts content and make every mistake in the book and learn from it which will definitely pay in the long run. Trying to switch directly is a high curve. Could it be done over again, I'd get three hard drives. A grocery drive, a transition drive and the fun one--experimental. Duke > At 11:30 AM 6/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > > >>I'm open to discussion, and closed to creating opponents. I don't want a > >>fight with anyone, I want an on-topic discussion on how newbies should > >>approach FreeBSD. > > > >Tim, you seem to thrive on conflict AND opposition. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 21:29:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22322 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:29:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22316 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:29:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pirat@prime.oaep.go.th) Received: from prime.oaep.go.th (slip202-135-22-131.sy.au.ibm.net [202.135.22.131]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA80702; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:29:21 GMT Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:30:13 +0700 (ICT) From: pirat sriyotha To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980623192107.0080cce0@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > You know, I did install Xemacs, tried it and found that I had no use right > now for such a powerful text editor. Geez this thing is big and bulky too > (took 20-30 megs on my system!). So for now I erased it. When I'm ready > to start doing some programming or need a really powerful editor I will > re-install it. For now, I'm watching my disk space. > i used to be. but this does not mean i have all my faves installed. am prefer newbies to experts or guru. > >I more need a good POP Email client than a text editor. > popclient ? > > BTW, anyone who wants a copy of my .fvwm2rc file to see my setup so far, > let me know - I'd have to FTP it to you since I'm not doing Email from BSD > yet (haven't found a client). You'd need a copy of asclock, since this is > one of the things I load at startup (nicest X clock I've seen for BSD so far). > > P.S.. 'fave' is slang for 'favorite', so I was saying I found my favorite > window manager. > a million thanks Tim, indeed. > > P.P.S... have you used fvwm2 and found any way to get the 'backer' module > to work correctly?? > i do not customize my X to my fave yet. my main purpose is to set bsd up and running X as quick as possible and add some network capabilities in order to join to internet and do some hobbies, programming. > At 09:03 AM 6/24/98 +0700, pirat sriyotha wrote: > >hi, > > > >good news. > > > >but i have never heard of Fave Window Manager... > >well, you've got it, fvwm2. so you should go ahead with xemacs. try this > >hot one and let us know some of your comments. > > > >oh yes, xemacs is not a window manager. just try this editor once you've > >got your favorite wm. > > > >i love reading from newbies discussion. > > > >rgds, > >psr > > > -- > My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - > lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 23 23:55:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18272 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:55:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@199-170-160-140.la.inreach.net [199.107.160.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18221 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:55:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@colossus.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id XAA27130; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:40:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980623181617.007fe9c0@mx.serv.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Computer Help From: Donald Burr To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: RE: Need a tip - X equiv. of Eudora? Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My secret spy satellite informs me that on 24-Jun-98, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Say, what's the best POP client for Email under X? Looking for > something Give /usr/ports/mail/xfmail a look. It's an X11 based mail tool, with a lot of features and a vaguely Eudora-ish look and feel. It's quitenice. --- Donald Burr - Ask me for my PGP key | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations - http://www.freebsd.org/ (NOTE: POBoxes.com appears to be working again -- fire away!) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 00:23:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22854 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca [24.64.63.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA22787 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:22:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from purebeef@shaw.wave.ca) Received: from shaw.wave.ca ([24.64.141.116]) by norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA6466; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:23:24 -0400 Message-ID: <3590A902.5791207C@shaw.wave.ca> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:21:38 -0400 From: Lanny Baron Organization: York Hill Foods X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Classiest Man Alive CC: Malartre , arthur , "Michael P. Sale" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Malartre wrote: > > : Well, i agree for a good newbie-chat place. > : But there is that stupid question "what we will do on that channel?" > : Ok, I suggest > : > : A really chat channel > : -No hardware talking > : -Help on administration, but no-free answer: we should encourage > : man-page reading and doc reading. Like in an answer to an easy question, > : give an URL to a related page, but dont give the easy answer. If you do > : so, they will ask hundred of those kind of easy question. > : -FreeBSD related tips > : -usefull reading on FreeBSD, Unix and thing like that > > They have a list like that. It's called FreeBSD-Chat. Enjoy! > > K.S. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the lists. > Send email to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with the subject line empty > and > in the body of the message, type in: lists (for a list of > available > email lists). To learn the commands of the FreeBSD mailing lists > send > email to majordomo@FreeBSD.org again with the subject empty and, > in > the body of the message, enter: help. Hope you find this channel > > useful CutEBeaR. Hmm.... I forgot I had made a channel and a bot for newbies to FreeBSD.... -^MiCr0^(~micro@shell.tht.net)- FreeBSD has several excellent mailing lists. Send email to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with the subject line empty and in the body of the message, type in: lists (for a list of available email lists). To learn the commands of the FreeBSD mailing lists send email to majordomo@FreeBSD.org again with the subject empty and, in the body of the message, enter: help. Hope you find this channel useful CutEBeaR. This channel is #freebsd-newbies on the undernet. Well no one ever comes here and on this (Undernet) network there is a #freebsd. I guess I will just let the bot sit there. Hope to see some of us "Newbies" out there. Cheers... Lanny aka CutEBeaR To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 00:49:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28230 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28175 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:48:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup423.serv.net [207.207.70.24]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA27755; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Donald Burr , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Need a tip - X equiv. of Eudora? Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24-Jun-98 Donald Burr wrote: > My secret spy satellite informs me that on 24-Jun-98, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> Say, what's the best POP client for Email under X? Looking for >> something > > Give /usr/ports/mail/xfmail a look. It's an X11 based mail tool, with a > lot of features and a vaguely Eudora-ish look and feel. It's quitenice. Well now, thanks for the tip :-)... It just so happens that I'm replying to you with... (never mind :-)) ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 24-Jun-98 Time: 00:47:13 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 01:27:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06209 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:27:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06172 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup417.serv.net [207.207.70.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28886; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: pirat sriyotha Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> >>I more need a good POP Email client than a text editor. >> > > popclient ? POP stands for Post Office Protocol, it's a way of sending mail other than using Sendmail or another of those funny Unix protocols. >> P.S.. 'fave' is slang for 'favorite', so I was saying I found my favorite >> window manager. >> > > a million thanks Tim, indeed. Hehehehe.. I don't know if that was sarcasm or not, but it's not a crime that your English isn't so great... I have a good friend from Laos who also has some trouble with English... it isn't a crime to not be as good as a native speaker. > i do not customize my X to my fave yet. my main purpose is to set bsd up > and running X as quick as possible and add some network > capabilities in order to join to internet and do some hobbies, > programming. Ah, OK. I'm still working on it too. I chose the windows manager I like but I'm still customizing it further as I go along. It's a work in progress. ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 24-Jun-98 Time: 01:13:17 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 03:14:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23673 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:14:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from info1.info.tampere.fi (lmkjuksi@info1.info.tampere.fi [212.63.6.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23449 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lmkjuksi@info1.info.tampere.fi) Received: (from lmkjuksi@localhost) by info1.info.tampere.fi (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA26852; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:16:14 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980623195124.008076a0@mx.serv.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:01:37 +0300 (EEST) From: Jukka Simila To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24-Jun-98 Tim Gerchmez wrote: >Finally settled on a favorite Window manager, one that's neither too >complicated nor too feature-free for this newbie -- it happens to be fvwm2 >(no laughing, now, this is fvwm2, not plain old fvwm). I spent a good part >of the day today configuring it the way I like (getting colors of different >things to all look good together is tough if you're not a graphic designer >or used to designing GUIs). Looks pretty nice, runs what I want it to run, >can be easily configured to run anything else, and the built in modules are >nice (except that the 'backer' module seems broken - it doesn't work the >way it's stated in the docs, and won't change desktop background colors, >nor set a pixmap for a background. Any info on this from anyone in the know? > >BTW, for those who want a REALLY simple but basically featureless window >manager, ctwm might be the choice for you... might be good for a REALLY raw >newbie. It's so simple and easy to use it's disgusting, but you can't do >anything much with it. and.. On 24-Jun-98 Tim Gerchmez wrote: >"on the face"... and even there, they are a lot of similarities. The thing >I like about fvwm2 is that you don't need to mess much with icons (see >below) and can set up pop-up menus instead (extremely easy to configure in >.fvwm2rc), which I greatly prefer to keeping track of icons for everything. Well I just wanted to say that I used fvwm2 2 weeks and didn't really solve it out.. just configured colors & a little bit something else. But now I'm using ctwm, and yes, it is simple to use, but I think U really can do alot with it. I don't have to look any icons around, I have disabled them from extremely-easy-to-configure-file .ctwmrc and I have a pop-up menu for my third mousebutton. also, when i 'used' fvwm2 I didn't notice option available in ctwm: f.movepack or f.movepush, so windows are very easy to arrange nicely, when they don't overlap unless u really want so. and backgrounds are working perfectly. :). BTW, as u can see, I use Xfmail, but I would like to know if u tested it: does it support filters? - I haven't been able to find anything about them within xfmail. ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Jukka Simila Date: 24-Jun-98 Time: 13:01:37 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 04:16:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07172 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:16:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA07040 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup119.serv.net [205.153.153.148]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA04422; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:15:43 -0700 To: Jukka Simila From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980623195124.008076a0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:01 PM 6/24/98 +0300, Jukka Simila wrote: >Well I just wanted to say that I used fvwm2 2 weeks and didn't really solve it >out.. just configured colors & a little bit something else. But now I'm using >ctwm, and yes, it is simple to use, but I think U really can do alot with it. As I say, it is very simple and easy to use (I liked it a lot when I tried it, but it didn't offer quite enough for me, at least for the amount of time I tried it), and yes, you can do a lot with it (a lot more than with plain old twm anyway)... the pager is very nice to look at as well (8 virtual desktops by default with different backgrounds on each) but it didn't seem to offer a lot of features (as in, modules and other utilities and stuff that comes with it). It's really good for a newbie, and/or if you don't want to deal with icons or a lot of other BS. I tell you though, advanced BSD users are laughing at both of us. Fvwm2 is considered one of the more basic window managers as well. The "gurus" all are using KDE, or Afterstep/Windowmaker/Enlightenment, or maybe even a commercial window manager. The "Nextstep/Openstep" look is very popular right now (which I personally am not that thrilled with). Maybe I didn't give ctwm enough of a chance.. if I get tired of not being able to change the background in Fvwm2, maybe I'll switch. Or maybe I'll use both.. who knows... that's one of the cool things about X... try using 20 different user interfaces on a Microsoft OS... ;-) >I >don't have to look any icons around, I have disabled them from >extremely-easy-to-configure-file .ctwmrc and I have a pop-up menu for my third >mousebutton. also, when i 'used' fvwm2 I didn't notice option available in >ctwm: f.movepack or f.movepush, so windows are very easy to arrange nicely, >when they don't overlap unless u really want so. One of the disadvantages of Fvwm2 is that window resizing can be a pain in the butt. If your desktop and buttonbar are covered up, it becomes very difficult to resize a window if you need to (you need to iconify it or switch using the pager before you can resize). I've always preferred window managers that auto-resize when you click any edge of a window (like Windows does it), and Fvwm2 doesn't do that. So maybe eventually I'll switch to something else (but probably not... I've put a LOT of work into configuring Fvwm2 at this point). >and backgrounds are working >perfectly. :). That's another beef I have with Fvwm2. The background chooser (called the 'backer' module in Fvwm2) is broken, as far as I can see it. You get two choices - "puke purple" (default) or "bunghole brown" (if you try and use the backer module). Nothing else seems to work. No pictures, nothing. The purple is bearable, though. >BTW, as u can see, I use Xfmail, but I would like to know if u >tested it: does it support filters? - I haven't been able to find anything >about them within xfmail. I think it supports something called "rules" that are similar to filters.. but nothing is so easy in Unix, so check it out, it probably takes 10 times as long to configure as the Eudora filters do, for example... ;-) BTW, are you having the same problem I am... when you click on a message to read or reply in Xfmail, the window that comes up is HUGE (fills more than one whole screen) and there doesn't look like any way to change it... ? You have to manually resize it each time, it looks like, or just put up with it filling the entire screen from corner to corner (I hate programs that do that... I always like some desktop space available). Tim (Now posting from Win95 ;-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 05:47:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24991 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 05:47:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (0@login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24957 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 05:47:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) Received: from arwen.myst.no (pc37.bergen-pm2-1.eunet.no [193.75.12.44]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id OAA15102; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:46:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (hjv@localhost) by arwen.myst.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00276; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:40:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) X-Authentication-Warning: arwen.myst.no: hjv owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:40:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Vaagstoel X-Sender: hjv@arwen.myst.no To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need a tip - X equiv. of Eudora? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980623181617.007fe9c0@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Say, what's the best POP client for Email under X? Looking for something > similar to Eudora in Windows. Already found my favorite FTP client, > 'ftptool'... now I need something similar for Email in X. I'll hunt around > and try some different clients, but any tips? You will have to differ between POP clients and mail readers. Eudora is a combination -- a mail reader with its own POP client. In a Windows 95 environment, this is necessary because you don't have any (at least commonly you don't) mail delivery system (like Sendmail). Therefore, the mail reader has to get the mail itself -- putting it directly into its own message base. In a FreeBSD system, however, things are a little different. Though you have some mail readers that have their own POP clients (like Netscape mail), I believe it is more common to use a stand-alone POP client to retrieve your mail, thereby "putting it into" the local mail system. This way, it will appear just as local mail would. For a mail reader, I will suggest `Pine'. But by all means, there are a lot of different ones available. Check them out, if you please. Pine works for me. For a POP client, I will suggest `fetchmail'. There is another client included with my distribution (2.2.5), it's called `popclient'. I have never tried it, because fetchmail can do everything I want it to. Finally, none of these suggestions are running as X programs, though Pine works rather well in a xterm window. Fetchmail is a command line program (controlled by a .fetchmailrc file, or command line options), so a graphical interface is not really necessary. I doubt you will find any stand-alone pop client `under X'. -- Haavard Vaagstoel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 06:05:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29007 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 06:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from info1.info.tampere.fi (lmkjuksi@info1.info.tampere.fi [212.63.6.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA28992 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 06:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lmkjuksi@info1.info.tampere.fi) Received: (from lmkjuksi@localhost) by info1.info.tampere.fi (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA09526; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:07:42 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:33:33 +0300 (EEST) From: Jukka Simila To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24-Jun-98 Tim Gerchmez wrote: >plain old twm anyway)... the pager is very nice to look at as well (8 >virtual desktops by default with different backgrounds on each) but it in fact i don't use virtual desktops :) (aren't the v desktops the most important advantage in ctwm compared to twm..? ..nae, who cares) >didn't seem to offer a lot of features (as in, modules and other utilities >and stuff that comes with it). It's really good for a newbie, and/or if i don't miss any modules i remember from fvwm2 .. >you don't want to deal with icons or a lot of other BS. I tell you though, >advanced BSD users are laughing at both of us. Fvwm2 is considered one of what is an advanced BSD user? (my friend is an system administrator in a company .. they have fbsd and he has fbsd at home also.. and he uses ctwm. i think his motto is: simple is beautiful :) (btw - that's why i got ctwm -, i totally fell in love with it's outlook and feel at my friend) >the more basic window managers as well. The "gurus" all are using KDE, or >Afterstep/Windowmaker/Enlightenment, or maybe even a commercial window >manager. The "Nextstep/Openstep" look is very popular right now (which I >personally am not that thrilled with). He (my friend) isn't maybe a guru , but his opinion about kde was: "KDE? U don't want IT.." and he didn't mean someone else would maybe want it.. - anyway, i don't know if he is laughing at us all the time :) > >Maybe I didn't give ctwm enough of a chance.. if I get tired of not being >able to change the background in Fvwm2, maybe I'll switch. Or maybe I'll >use both.. who knows... that's one of the cool things about X... try using >20 different user interfaces on a Microsoft OS... ;-) - yes, that is a real fun, i had all wm's i found from my special 2.2.5 cd at the same time on my machine, it was fun to switch from wm2 to fvwm95 and then to qvwm and gwm and mlvwm etc. >One of the disadvantages of Fvwm2 is that window resizing can be a pain in >the butt. If your desktop and buttonbar are covered up, it becomes very >difficult to resize a window if you need to (you need to iconify it or >switch using the pager before you can resize). I've always preferred >window managers that auto-resize when you click any edge of a window (like >Windows does it), and Fvwm2 doesn't do that. So maybe eventually I'll ctwm does that if u tell it to do that.. mine does >switch to something else (but probably not... I've put a LOT of work into >configuring Fvwm2 at this point). if u wan't my .ctwmrc file i can mail it to u (if i know how to, have never tested). . but it really isn't so hard to configure (if u just read the fine ctwm manual.. i printed it out before i started to configure ctwm.. it's easier to read it from paper than from xterm window.. once u press space the thing you've been searching for passes by.. ) >I think it supports something called "rules" that are similar to filters.. >but nothing is so easy in Unix, so check it out, it probably takes 10 times >as long to configure as the Eudora filters do, for example... ;-) thanks, it really has those "rules" and they are as easy to configure as netscape messenger's filters- haven't eudora so i can't say anything about it. >BTW, are you having the same problem I am... when you click on a message to >read or reply in Xfmail, the window that comes up is HUGE (fills more than >one whole screen) and there doesn't look like any way to change it... ? >You have to manually resize it each time, it looks like, or just put up >with it filling the entire screen from corner to corner (I hate programs >that do that... I always like some desktop space available). well, when i clicked some message, the windows that came up was indeed bigger than my desktop, but i resized it to very small, and chose 'file->exit'. When i clicked any message again, it opened the window as the size i was resized it. it didn't open the window to the place i had moved it to , but i can live with the place that xfmail gives to the window. btw.. sorry my english (if someone noticed it was english :) ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Jukka Simila Date: 24-Jun-98 Time: 15:33:33 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 08:39:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24142 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:39:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from qatar.net.qa (qatar.net.qa [194.133.33.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24109; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:39:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sodah@qatar.net.qa) Received: from qatar.net.qa (pons@ddil.qatar.net.qa [194.133.35.229]) by qatar.net.qa (8.8.8/Internet-Qatar) with ESMTP id SAA11981; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:40:09 +0300 (GMT) Message-ID: <35910F7D.1CC95263@qatar.net.qa> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:38:57 +0300 From: Fadi Sodah X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.33 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: set up user ppp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi i am switching from Linux to freebsd! to get connect to my isp i am running user ppp and using dyn ip addressing. when i tried to call up ppp as root, got the following: --------------------- hostname# ppp Working in interactive mode Using interfac: tun0 ppp ON hostname> dial ISP Alias not enabled Warning: alias port Failed 1 Warning: alias not enabled Warning: Usage: alias deny_incoming [yes|no] Dial attempt 359211 dial OK ! Warning: chat exist 1 Warning: DialModem: login failed ppp ON hostname> --------------------------------------------- i am using the following my ppp-scripts, which based on my linux-experience 1) #/etc/ppp/dial.chat TIMEOUT 30 "" ATZ OK ATDT359211 ABORT "NO CARRIER" ABORT BUSY ABORT DIALTONE ABORT WAITING TIMEOUT 45 CONNECT "" TIMEOUT 5 Username: xyz Password: prettysecret 2) #/etc/ppp/options lock -detach modem lock /dev/modem 115200 crtscts defaultroute asyncmap 0 mtu 1500 mru 1500 noipdefault idle 120 passive 3) #/etc/ppp/ppp.conf ISP: set phone 359211 set login "TIMEOUT 5 ogin:--ogin: ppp word: ppp" set timeout 120 set ifaddr 0 0 delete ALL add 0 0 HISADDR can any one offer suggestions? thx in advance. bye fadi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 08:43:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24713 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:43:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24630 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-5.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.69]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA21389; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:46:41 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980623195124.008076a0@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > I'm not familiar with twm, I don't even know if I tried it or not. There > are a lot of window managers out there... > ... twm is the default. > > One problem with X in general I've found is locating pixmaps/icons for all > your apps and getting all the paths straight... I have pixmaps stored all > over my hard drive in various locations. Something needs to be done about > this in a future release of X... some kind of central pixmap/icon > repository or something - it could get out of hand with having 40 or 50 > different directories containing pixmaps and other icons scattered all over > the place. > .. I don't think the location of pixmaps and such are a problem of X, but (trying to not sound like a jerk) why don't you just store all your pixmaps in the same dir, that way you can point to them from .fvwm2rc and you shouldn't have to worry about them anymore. .. I like fvwm2 also, I've tried qvwm, but it's a bit flakey. I'm not sure what you mean by the baker, but if you're looking to setup a type of wallpaper effect I find that xloadimage works fine for me. I'd post how I use it here, but I don't want to spread my "bad habits" around all over the net ;) .... ltr PS. have you tried Pine as a mail program, I find it can be quite conifgurable to your own personal needs. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 09:13:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00898 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00821 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:12:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08178; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:11:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:11:41 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806241611.JAA08178@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: fewtch@serv.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some more OS comparisons... Win NT is a bloated pig :-) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:41:22 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >I have a triple boot system (Win95 OSR2, NT4 workstation and FreeBSD >2.2.6), so I thought I'd try a test... I set up only a 10 meg swap file >under Windows NT, even though it recommends 75 minimum. I have 64 megs of >RAM in my machine, so this gave NT 74 megs of RAM to play with.... I have no idea about the specifics of "Windows NT", but it may be useful to realize that some systems (such as SunOS 4.x) require what is called "backing store" -- that is, disk space allocated within the swap -- for any virtual storage used. That is one reason for the old "rule of thumb" with BSD systems (and SunOS 4.x was heavily BSD-based) that swap space should be (at least) 2x main storage. Some more modern systems do not have this requirement; for example, recent releases of Solaris 2.x specifically do not have the requirement... and, in fact, can be run with no disk set aside for swap space at all (given enough RAM). Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 09:15:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01460 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:15:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (0@login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01443 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:15:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) Received: from arwen.myst.no (pc41.bergen-pm2-1.eunet.no [193.75.12.48]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id SAA11837; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:15:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (hjv@localhost) by arwen.myst.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00304; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:51:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) X-Authentication-Warning: arwen.myst.no: hjv owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:51:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Vaagstoel X-Sender: hjv@arwen.myst.no To: Jukka Simila cc: Tim Gerchmez , newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Jukka Simila wrote: > perfectly. :). BTW, as u can see, I use Xfmail, but I would like to know if u > tested it: does it support filters? - I haven't been able to find anything > about them within xfmail. For mail filtering, you should look into the procmail package. It is a stand-alone mail filtering system. -- Haavard Vaagstoel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 09:15:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01463 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (0@login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01444 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) Received: from arwen.myst.no (pc41.bergen-pm2-1.eunet.no [193.75.12.48]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id SAA11788 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:14:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (hjv@localhost) by arwen.myst.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00675 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:07:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) X-Authentication-Warning: arwen.myst.no: hjv owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:07:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Vaagstoel X-Sender: hjv@arwen.myst.no To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Jukka Simila wrote: > ---------------------------------- > E-Mail: Jukka Simila > Date: 24-Jun-98 > Time: 15:33:33 > > This message was sent by XFMail > ---------------------------------- Does XFMail add the "Date" "Time" and "This message was sent by XFMail" by itself? Is it possible to turn them off? -- Haavard Vaagstoel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 09:24:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03582 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03424 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:23:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08219; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:22:35 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806241622.JAA08219@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: dhw@whistle.com, fewtch@serv.net Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:25:39 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >Sure, but a newbie won't likely be doing anything terribly important with >their system and won't likely be installing BSD for others who need solid >systems... so why be methodical? I believe your assumption is incorrect in at least some cases. I consider myself a "newbie" to FreeBSD, yet I have done UNIX sysadmin work since '86, and I've been doing sysadmin-like tasks (it was called "systems programming") since '69. Except for a year working in an environment where the UNIX systems we had were mostly BSDI boxen, I've not had the dubious pleasure of dealing with the PC world at all. (Well, except for maybe half a dozen abortive attempts to get something useful out of a Microsoft environment. I gave up on that, as being a fundamentally flawed approach.) I am currently working as a sysaadmin in a (mostly) FreeBSD environment. Further, I believe you're missing a point: you refer to "their system" -- note singular. In my case, I have a couple of machines on my desk, the functions of which were migrated to other machines. Thus, until I need to deploy these (extra) boxes, I can install FreeBSD on them in different ways... without breaking anything of importance. (All it requires is that I spend my time....) Lastly, a reason to "be methodical" is to avoid repeating the same mistakes. If you're not methodical, you have no way to know whether or not you're repeating yoruself. (Then again, when a fellow in the dorm room next to mine in college put up the "An unexamined life in not worth living" quote on his door, my response was "How could he have known?") Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 12:43:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13824 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.jorsm.com (mercury.jorsm.com [207.112.128.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13742; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jer@jorsm.com) Received: from localhost (jer@localhost) by mercury.jorsm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18524; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:42:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:42:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremy Shaffner To: Fadi Sodah cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: set up user ppp In-Reply-To: <35910F7D.1CC95263@qatar.net.qa> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Fadi Sodah wrote: > hi > > i am switching from Linux to freebsd! to get connect to my isp i am > running user ppp and using dyn ip addressing. > when i tried to call up ppp as root, got the following: > --------------------- > hostname# ppp > Working in interactive mode > Using interfac: tun0 > ppp ON hostname> dial ISP > Alias not enabled > Warning: alias port Failed 1 > Warning: alias not enabled > Warning: Usage: alias deny_incoming [yes|no] > Dial attempt 359211 > dial OK ! > Warning: chat exist 1 > Warning: DialModem: login failed > ppp ON hostname> > --------------------------------------------- > > i am using the following my ppp-scripts, which based on my > linux-experience I think that is the problem. You should thoroughly read over the online Handbook. > 1) > #/etc/ppp/dial.chat <--- This file is useless > TIMEOUT 30 > "" ATZ > OK ATDT359211 > ABORT "NO CARRIER" > ABORT BUSY > ABORT DIALTONE > ABORT WAITING > TIMEOUT 45 > CONNECT "" > TIMEOUT 5 > Username: xyz > Password: prettysecret > > 2) > #/etc/ppp/options <--- So is this one. > lock > -detach > modem > lock > /dev/modem > 115200 > crtscts > defaultroute > asyncmap 0 > mtu 1500 > mru 1500 > noipdefault > idle 120 > passive > > 3) > #/etc/ppp/ppp.conf <--- Right file, but incomplete. > ISP: > set phone 359211 > set login "TIMEOUT 5 ogin:--ogin: ppp word: ppp" > set timeout 120 > set ifaddr 0 0 > delete ALL > add 0 0 HISADDR > and don't forget /etc/ppp/ppp.linkup Aside from the UNIXish of Linux, you should forget everything about it. :) -===================================================================- Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet Senior Technical Support Northwest Indiana's Premium jer@jorsm.com Internet Service Provider support@jorsm.com http://www.jorsm.com -===================================================================- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 14:51:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08990 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:51:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.force9.co.uk [195.166.136.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08933; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:50:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23172; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:40:40 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199806242140.WAA23172@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Fadi Sodah cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: set up user ppp In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:38:57 +0300." <35910F7D.1CC95263@qatar.net.qa> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:40:40 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > hi > > i am switching from Linux to freebsd! to get connect to my isp i am > running user ppp and using dyn ip addressing. > when i tried to call up ppp as root, got the following: [.....] > 3) > #/etc/ppp/ppp.conf > ISP: > set phone 359211 > set login "TIMEOUT 5 ogin:--ogin: ppp word: ppp" > set timeout 120 > set ifaddr 0 0 > delete ALL > add 0 0 HISADDR > > can any one offer suggestions? ``dial.chat'' and ``options'' aren't used by user-ppp (man ppp) and unless you've got the very latest ppp, you'll need to put something in ppp.linkup as per the man page and sample files. http://www.Awfulhak.org/ppp.html points at the latest ppp version. > thx in advance. > bye > fadi -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 14:53:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09308 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.jorsm.com (mercury.jorsm.com [207.112.128.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09213; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:52:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jer@jorsm.com) Received: from localhost (jer@localhost) by mercury.jorsm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24951; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:52:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:52:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremy Shaffner To: Fadi Sodah cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: set up user ppp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BTW, those two files aren't needed because you're using userppp, not kernel ppp. On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Fadi Sodah wrote: > > > hi > > > > i am switching from Linux to freebsd! to get connect to my isp i am > > running user ppp and using dyn ip addressing. > > when i tried to call up ppp as root, got the following: > > --------------------- > > hostname# ppp > > Working in interactive mode > > Using interfac: tun0 > > ppp ON hostname> dial ISP > > Alias not enabled > > Warning: alias port Failed 1 > > Warning: alias not enabled > > Warning: Usage: alias deny_incoming [yes|no] > > Dial attempt 359211 > > dial OK ! > > Warning: chat exist 1 > > Warning: DialModem: login failed > > ppp ON hostname> > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > i am using the following my ppp-scripts, which based on my > > linux-experience > > I think that is the problem. You should thoroughly read over the online > Handbook. > > > > 1) > > #/etc/ppp/dial.chat <--- This file is useless > > TIMEOUT 30 > > "" ATZ > > OK ATDT359211 > > ABORT "NO CARRIER" > > ABORT BUSY > > ABORT DIALTONE > > ABORT WAITING > > TIMEOUT 45 > > CONNECT "" > > TIMEOUT 5 > > Username: xyz > > Password: prettysecret > > > > 2) > > #/etc/ppp/options <--- So is this one. > > lock > > -detach > > modem > > lock > > /dev/modem > > 115200 > > crtscts > > defaultroute > > asyncmap 0 > > mtu 1500 > > mru 1500 > > noipdefault > > idle 120 > > passive > > > > 3) > > #/etc/ppp/ppp.conf <--- Right file, but incomplete. > > ISP: > > set phone 359211 > > set login "TIMEOUT 5 ogin:--ogin: ppp word: ppp" > > set timeout 120 > > set ifaddr 0 0 > > delete ALL > > add 0 0 HISADDR > > > > and don't forget /etc/ppp/ppp.linkup > > Aside from the UNIXish of Linux, you should forget everything about it. > :) > > > > -===================================================================- > Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet > Senior Technical Support Northwest Indiana's Premium > jer@jorsm.com Internet Service Provider > support@jorsm.com http://www.jorsm.com > -===================================================================- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > -===================================================================- Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet Senior Technical Support Northwest Indiana's Premium jer@jorsm.com Internet Service Provider support@jorsm.com http://www.jorsm.com -===================================================================- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 15:10:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12567 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12401 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:09:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27096; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:04:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980624230403.42937@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:04:03 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , David Wolfskill Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" References: <199806221826.LAA29227@pau-amma.whistle.com> <3.0.5.32.19980623182539.007faa50@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980623182539.007faa50@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Tue, Jun 23, 1998 at 06:25:39PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 23, 1998 at 06:25:39PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Sure, but a newbie won't likely be doing anything terribly important with > their system and won't likely be installing BSD for others who need solid > systems... so why be methodical? Because if that newbie runs into problems (can't start ppp, has disklabel trashed, removes something important from /usr/lib, or whatever) and mails to -questions asking for help, they're far more likely to get useful help if they reliably tell others what they did. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 24 16:45:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12568 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:35:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from info1.info.tampere.fi (lmkjuksi@info1.info.tampere.fi [212.63.6.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12511 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:35:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lmkjuksi@info1.info.tampere.fi) Received: (from lmkjuksi@localhost) by info1.info.tampere.fi (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA32492; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:37:32 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:32:27 +0300 (EEST) From: Jukka Simila To: Haavard Vaagstoel Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24-Jun-98 Haavard Vaagstoel wrote: >> ---------------------------------- >> E-Mail: Jukka Simila >> Date: 24-Jun-98 >> Time: 15:33:33 >> >> This message was sent by XFMail >> ---------------------------------- > >Does XFMail add the "Date" "Time" and "This message was sent by XFMail" >by itself? Is it possible to turn them off? >-- >Haavard Vaagstoel It adds them by default, but it's very simple to edit the signature or tell xfmail not to sign messages at all.. like it more thisway? : Jukka Similä :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 17:30:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07021 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06991 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16486; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:29:55 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980625102950.05717@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:29:50 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: Jukka Simila , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. References: <3.0.5.32.19980623195124.008076a0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 04:15:43AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 04:15:43AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > One of the disadvantages of Fvwm2 is that window resizing can be a pain in > the butt. If your desktop and buttonbar are covered up, You could set the button bar to stay always on top if you prefer. > it becomes very difficult to resize a window if you need to (you need > to iconify it or switch using the pager before you can resize). Nah, you can switch to another panel without using the pager, just by moving the mouse onto the edge of the screen. And as long as you can see any part of the window border, top bottom or sides, you can grab the border there and resize it. Maybe yours is not configured for this. > I've always preferred window managers that auto-resize when you click > any edge of a window (like Windows does it), and Fvwm2 doesn't do that. If by auto-resize you mean allows the mouse to resize it, then yes, fvwm2 does that if you want it to. It's optional. > That's another beef I have with Fvwm2. The background chooser (called the > 'backer' module in Fvwm2) is broken, as far as I can see it. You get two > choices - "puke purple" (default) or "bunghole brown" (if you try and use > the backer module). Nothing else seems to work. No pictures, nothing. > The purple is bearable, though. Try 'man bggen' and 'apropos root' and check out what tools you've got available to mess with the root window. Later you could probably put a few of your favourites in a new submenu, instead of FvwmBacker. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 17:38:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07688 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:38:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07648 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:37:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from localhost (stuart@localhost) by junior.apk.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA06792; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:37:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis Reply-To: Stuart Krivis To: Rainer M Duffner cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Windoze vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Rainer M Duffner wrote: > Naaa, it's all so easy - point and click.... > > > Another major plus for X is it's ability to run reasonably well on low spec > > machines. > > Or to have a full OS, without a GUI..... > I like to boot the Win95-PCs at our computer-lab with the PicoBSD > boot-floppy and turn them into little FreeBSDs ;-) > At least, a stable telnet implementation ! The QNX demo is really good for this too. They crammed an incredible amount of stuff on a single floppy. I wish someone would package it with a cheap machine and sell it as an Internet appliance type of thing. It would be much better than all the Windows nightmares out there. -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 17:43:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08419 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08394 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-27.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.91]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA26989; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:47:10 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > One of the disadvantages of Fvwm2 is that window resizing can be a pain in > the butt. If your desktop and buttonbar are covered up, it becomes very > difficult to resize a window if you need to (you need to iconify it or > switch using the pager before you can resize). I've always preferred > window managers that auto-resize when you click any edge of a window (like > Windows does it), and Fvwm2 doesn't do that. So maybe eventually I'll > switch to something else (but probably not... I've put a LOT of work into > configuring Fvwm2 at this point). > ... I'm using fvwm2, and I find that by default the "Window-Ops2" moduale is tied to the button at the left of the title bar, which you can use to resize the window, or a few other things. Also if you've got a three button mouse the "Window-Ops" module is confgiured to the second button, unfortunately I'm using a two button trackball, so I just switched the "Window-Ops" mod to the trackball's second button. > >and backgrounds are working > >perfectly. :). > > That's another beef I have with Fvwm2. The background chooser (called the > 'backer' module in Fvwm2) is broken, as far as I can see it. You get two > choices - "puke purple" (default) or "bunghole brown" (if you try and use > the backer module). Nothing else seems to work. No pictures, nothing. > The purple is bearable, though. > .... you can cutomize the background color in .fvwm2rc by tweaking the line with "xsetroot" in it, personally I set it to black and then use xloadimage to display gifs or jpgs. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 19:26:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24728 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:26:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24609 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup511.serv.net [207.207.70.76]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA18676; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980624192451.00804100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:24:51 -0700 To: Jukka Simila From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:33 PM 6/24/98 +0300, Jukka Simila wrote: >in fact i don't use virtual desktops :) (aren't the v desktops the most >important advantage in ctwm compared to twm..? ..nae, who cares) I'll tell you a little secret - I don't use them very often either... but they're nice to have available if needed. I just have a block of four set up in the Fvwm2 pager, and that's all I need, period, end of story. >i don't miss any modules i remember from fvwm2 .. You don't remember the 'buttons' module, the pager, the audio module for sound, the iconbox module so you get icons when you minimize programs inside a box instead of floating all over the desktop? Also, I found an addon for Fvwm2 the other day called "Tkgoodstuff" that adds a bunch more modules. You should take a look at my desktop BTW, it's starting to look pretty darn good... One of these days I'll get a program that takes screen shots, and put one up on my web site :-) >what is an advanced BSD user? (my friend is an system administrator in a >company .. they have fbsd and he has fbsd at home also.. and he uses ctwm. >i think his motto is: simple is beautiful :) (btw - that's why i got ctwm -, i >totally fell in love with it's outlook and feel at my friend) Glad YOU found the Window manager you like. Me, I wanted something not quite so simple, yet not something outrageously complex like KDE. So, in conclusion, there are at least 50 different window managers available just in the packages, and probably a hundred more from other sources, it's a big world, so I'm glad that both of us found what we were looking for! >btw.. sorry my english (if someone noticed it was english :) Actually your English is quite good... I've seen a heck of a lot worse :-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 19:26:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24766 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:26:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24649 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:25:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup511.serv.net [207.207.70.76]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA18671; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980624191252.00802350@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:12:52 -0700 To: Haavard Vaagstoel From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Need a tip - X equiv. of Eudora? Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980623181617.007fe9c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:40 PM 6/24/98 +0200, Haavard Vaagstoel wrote: >Finally, none of these suggestions are running as X programs, though Pine >works rather well in a xterm window. Fetchmail is a command line program >(controlled by a .fetchmailrc file, or command line options), so a >graphical interface is not really necessary. I doubt you will find any >stand-alone pop client `under X'. Your idea is a good one (and intrigues me as well), but I *did* find a standalone pop client with some similarities to Eudora, so it pretty much takes care of the issue. On a single-user system like mine, not networked to any other PC's except via dialup to an ISP, it seems easier and more expedient to use a single program rather than a daemon to handle Email (except for system-sent mail, of course... but I can just use 'mail' to read that). The idea of using a fetchmail daemon that would allow any number of other programs to manipulate my Email is intriguing, however. BTW, why the quotes on 'under X?' Aren't I running "under" a particular visual environment when X is running? How would you have put it, if 'under X' doesn't sound right to you? Inquiring newbies want to know. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 24 22:24:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21288 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21283 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17568; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:24:41 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980625152436.65251@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:24:36 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: wasting time :-) References: <3.0.5.32.19980623195124.008076a0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net> <19980625102950.05717@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980625102950.05717@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Thu, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:29:50AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 25, 1998 at 10:29:50AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > Try 'man bggen' and 'apropos root' and check out what tools you've got > available to mess with the root window. Later you could probably put a > few of your favourites in a new submenu, instead of FvwmBacker. And while you're playing with the background toys, have a go at xeyes+ (yes that's a plus sign) from the packages. You want to outdo someone who has those cutesy little eyes in the corner that follow the mouse around? Well this is something else. No study, just run it. Top groan value! -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 01:41:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21966 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:41:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA21949 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup127.serv.net [205.153.153.156]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA11502; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980625014140.0080d8f0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:41:40 -0700 To: David Wolfskill , dhw@whistle.com From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Newbies - "Handle me with care?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806241622.JAA08219@pau-amma.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:22 AM 6/24/98 -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: >Lastly, a reason to "be methodical" is to avoid repeating the same >mistakes. If you're not methodical, you have no way to know whether or >not you're repeating yoruself. (Then again, when a fellow in the dorm >room next to mine in college put up the "An unexamined life in not worth >living" quote on his door, my response was "How could he have known?") to that last portion... I think it all depends on how an individual's thinking process works. Some people do things better in a methodical method, while others seem to do better being haphazard. It's like the old "clean desk vs. messy desk" argument... the clean desk person wonders how the messy desk person can ever find anything, the messy desk person, after having their desk cleaned up by someone, complains that they can no longer find where their things are. People's brains simply work differently. I'm the "messy desk" type, and learn best in a non-methodical, try-anything-until-it-works environment. I think it would be impossible to explain how this works and I remember what I learn to someone who learns better methodically, just take my word that it does. BTW, I always enjoy your Emails David, and appreciate the advice from someone who's been into Unix in general long enough to have a reasonably deep understanding of it. You aren't exactly what I personally would term a newbie, even with FreeBSD (hell, how could you be, if you're administering systems for pay in a mostly BSD environment), but it's up to every individual to label him/herself in that regard, IMO. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 01:44:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22327 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:44:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22309 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:44:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup127.serv.net [205.153.153.156]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA11575; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980625014351.0080c8e0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:43:51 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Backer module in fvwm2 doesn't seem to work... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980624043728.00807940@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You know what I actually did was download a package called "Xearth" that puts up a nice full-screen bitmap of the planet Earth on the desktop, with cities labeled. I love it - problem solved. Thanks for the advice though, I'll keep it in mind if I get sick of the Earth bitmap. At 11:22 AM 6/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >Hi, > >> Also, is there any other way to set desktop background colors or pixmaps >> (like as in via a style setting) other than using Fvwm.Backer? > >You can certainly use xv or xli or any number of other image programs to >set the background. I don't use fvwm, but I imagine you could do >something in your .fvwmrc like I do for afterstep: > >xv -root -quit -rmode 0 background_pics/ball.jpg > >You may need an "exec" in front of this. Your other option is to put a >line like this in your .xsession or .xinitrc. > >Brett >********************************************************* >Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu >http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ > >If you meet a beautiful woman wearing skintight, clingy >lycra, and one of the first five words out of your mouth >is "Campagnolo" . . . . . you might be a cyclist. > > > -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 02:21:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28900 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:21:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA28887 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup447.serv.net [207.207.70.48]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA12835 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980625015435.00808310@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:54:35 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: wasting time :-) In-Reply-To: <19980625152436.65251@welearn.com.au> References: <19980625102950.05717@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980623195124.008076a0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net> <19980625102950.05717@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Those Eyes-type programs make me nervous as all heck... how can anybody get any work done with a pair of eyes following their mouse cursor everywhere (grin)... It's like having someone constantly stare at you while you work... It really does make me nervous to have those damn eyes up on the screen watching you :-) At 03:24 PM 6/25/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >And while you're playing with the background toys, have a go at xeyes+ >(yes that's a plus sign) from the packages. You want to outdo someone who >has those cutesy little eyes in the corner that follow the mouse around? >Well this is something else. No study, just run it. Top groan value! > >-- > >Regards, > -*Sue*- -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 02:21:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28934 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA28913 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:21:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup447.serv.net [207.207.70.48]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA12838; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980625022025.0080ed80@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:20:25 -0700 To: David Wolfskill From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: re: vi Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806171614.JAA05162@pau-amma.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:14 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >Uhhmmm.... :-) > >No. vi isn't "original". It was written (essentially) by Bill Joy, >while he was at UC Berkeley, as a "glass TTY" front-end for ex. You didn't state the year, but if it was pre-1980, I think the term "original" is descriptive enough. It certainly has become widely used and is considered a "default" or a "standard" editor, if you don't like the term "original." >I suspect that you don't really want to think too hard about what Ken, >Dennis, Brian, Joe, Rob, & the rest of the Bell Labs gang used to >actually write the original code.... Actually, you're right on the money there. The fact is (and this may disturb you a little), I don't give a rat's hang in hell about Unix's history. I honestly don't care. I have ZERO interest. I wasn't involved in any of it, and it has nothing to do with me. Perhaps knowing more about it would help me learn Unix faster (and so I may look into it a little for that reason only), but from an personal interest standpoint I have absolutely none. I'd rather sit and watch cobwebs up in the attic. >As for UNIX being "stuck in the 1960s"... well, please note that the >UNIX "epoch" -- time zero, so to speak -- is midnight (0000 hrs.) 01 >January, 1970 GMT ("UTC" for folks less old-fashioned than I). I was close enough. Anyway, I was 6 years old in 1970 and cared more about the cookie jar than I did about computing. I didn't enter the scene (never touched a computer keyboard) at all until 1983, when the "home computer wars" were just starting. Remember those? Now, THAT period of time interests me, because I had some personal involvement in it. I'm just not much of a history buff, sorry. I've always gotten poor grades in history classes in school due to lack of interest. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 02:34:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00798 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:34:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA00793 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:34:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup447.serv.net [207.207.70.48]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA13280; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980625023355.0080e9b0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:33:55 -0700 To: Andrew Boothman From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: vi Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3587F470.1228F1D8@boothman.easynet.co.uk> References: <3.0.5.32.19980616212412.007ee350@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I still have serious doubts that I'll even run into a Unix system where vi is the only editor accessible on the system. There are so many different text editors in Unix you could fill a phone book sized manual with the names of them (perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but seriously... seems like every new utility you install has some sort of a text editor connected with it - for example, Pico coming along with Pine). At 05:53 PM 6/17/98 +0100, Andrew Boothman wrote: >Tim, > >I think you're being a bit harsh here. There are without doubt those who >would run you over in the street for insulting vi and its ilk, but from >what people have said here I do not believe anybody on this list fits >into that category. > >Some are simply of the opinion that a bit of knowledge of vi would be a >good thing, because it is installed on every UNIX machine since time >began, and you wouldn't need to carry anything around on a floppy. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 03:34:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA08464 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:34:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08454 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:34:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup103.serv.net [205.153.153.132]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA15042 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980625033446.00809730@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:34:46 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: How important is "the OS?" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's interesting to me to note that in the Unix philosophy, the OS itself is of prime importance, to some *nixers even more so than what you *USE* the OS for (this might sound silly at first, but think about it). The reason this is interesting to me might best be explained by a fictitious modern discourse with an "average" computer user (such a person doesn't really exist, but let's pretend they do for now): (1) Q: "Does your computer run Win95?" (2) A: "Yes, it came with my computer." (3) Q: "What *IS* Win95?" (4) (puzzled look from the user, then a thoughtful look, then another puzzled look). A: "It's what I get when I turn on my computer... you know, the start button and stuff... it lets you run programs, I think..." (confused look)... In other words, the "average desktop user" doesn't even *know* what an operating system is. They have no clue. None. Keep in mind that I'm talking people who USE computers here, not people who build them, administer them, or set them up for use. To me, this explains a lot about how people in 1998 view OS's, and the reason why the *nix's are niche OS's on the desktop even though most of them are entirely free, and Microsoft is king, even though you pay through the nose for their OS's. The OS is no longer supposed to be of importance. The user is not supposed to know that an OS even exists. In fact, applications themselves are supposed to be unimportant. The paradigm of today is the document. The document "opens itself" when you click on an icon, you edit it, then it "closes itself" when you're done. You don't run programs (or at least you do so less than you used to, and it's considered bad protocol to run a program when you can open a document instead (of course, the program to edit/manipulate that document opens along with it, but you're not supposed to know that). Somehow, Unix has to catch up with this paradigm if they want any significant portion of the desktop, not just the server market. X-windows is a *bare beginning*, but if you think our "average user" is going to want to edit configuration files by hand to get the desktop look and act the way they want, you'd have me rolling on the floor laughing. Those of us who find the OS itself of interest (everyone on this list) are obviously still around, but I think we're a dying breed. Desktop computing is changing rapidly, and Unix is lagging far behind. This is a bad thing. Does anyone else agree with me? Like many others on this list, I enjoy OS's and computers (hardware/software) FOR THEMSELVES more than for what you can do with them. I like to edit configuration files (well... I can put up with it anyway, and am not daunted by it). I enjoy building and repairing computers. I like experimenting with installing and configuring OS's. These things are more interesting to me than watching multimedia clips, playing video games or doing word processing and data entry. Folks... what do we do about kids entering computing in 1998, whose first experiences involve Win95 and playing arcade games using DirectX? Who's going to be around in 20-30 years that cares any more about Unix, other than a few lost souls in their 60's who earn millions a year because they can still administer a Unix system? I think I did a poor job getting across what I was trying to say in this Email (and perhaps made no sense at all), but I hope it generates some discussion, especially among people who use multiple OS's like myself and follow the latest trends in computing. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 05:08:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23390 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:08:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA23380 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18541; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:07:54 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980625220750.29389@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:07:50 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wasting time :-) References: <19980625102950.05717@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980623195124.008076a0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net> <19980625102950.05717@welearn.com.au> <19980625152436.65251@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980625015435.00808310@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980625015435.00808310@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Thu, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:54:35AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:54:35AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Those Eyes-type programs make me nervous as all heck... how can anybody get > any work done with a pair of eyes following their mouse cursor everywhere > (grin)... It's like having someone constantly stare at you while you > work... It really does make me nervous to have those damn eyes up on the > screen watching you :-) Then you'd really better take a quick look at xyes+ to prepare yourself in case you accidentally install it one day when you're not prepared for the worst :-) Good pkg_delete practice. I know someone who's almost phobic about eyes. I'm saving it for her. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 05:28:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26749 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:28:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (0@login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26741 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) Received: from arwen.myst.no (pc12.bergen-pm2-1.eunet.no [193.75.12.12]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id OAA25756; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:28:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (hjv@localhost) by arwen.myst.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00323; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:04:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) X-Authentication-Warning: arwen.myst.no: hjv owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:04:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Vaagstoel X-Sender: hjv@arwen.myst.no To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wasting time :-) In-Reply-To: <19980625152436.65251@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > And while you're playing with the background toys, have a go at xeyes+ > (yes that's a plus sign) from the packages. You want to outdo someone who > has those cutesy little eyes in the corner that follow the mouse around? > Well this is something else. No study, just run it. Top groan value! Actually, I found xeyes+ rather disappointing... gone were the cute little eyes, replaced by a horrible stare ;-) -- Haavard Vaagstoel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 05:28:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26789 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:28:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (0@login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26759 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) Received: from arwen.myst.no (pc12.bergen-pm2-1.eunet.no [193.75.12.12]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id OAA25792; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:28:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (hjv@localhost) by arwen.myst.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00314; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:59:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) X-Authentication-Warning: arwen.myst.no: hjv owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:59:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Vaagstoel X-Sender: hjv@arwen.myst.no Reply-To: Haavard Vaagstoel To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need a tip - X equiv. of Eudora? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980624191252.00802350@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Your idea is a good one (and intrigues me as well), but I *did* find a > standalone pop client with some similarities to Eudora, so it pretty much > takes care of the issue. On a single-user system like mine, not networked > to any other PC's except via dialup to an ISP, it seems easier and more > expedient to use a single program rather than a daemon to handle Email > (except for system-sent mail, of course... but I can just use 'mail' to > read that). The idea of using a fetchmail daemon that would allow any > number of other programs to manipulate my Email is intriguing, however. While fetchmail, for instance, _may_ be run as a daemon, polling your POP server at specified intervals, it can also be run as a "common program", that is, not as a daemon. You'd only run it once, it'd fetch your mail, and the execution of the program will be over. What do you mean "a standalone pop client with some similarities to Eudora", by the way? In what way is it similar to Eudora? Does it move your mail from the POP server to the local mail system, or does it move it to some specified reader's message base? If you want to make use of the quite versatile standard mail delivery system, I suggest you look into 'fetchmail' (for POP retrieval), 'procmail' (for mail filtering), 'sendmail' (for mail delivery, both local and remote) and the '.forward' file (which specifies what address or program mail shall be forwarded to). > BTW, why the quotes on 'under X?' Aren't I running "under" a particular > visual environment when X is running? How would you have put it, if 'under > X' doesn't sound right to you? Inquiring newbies want to know. I put the quotes there because of this -- it is most certainly possible to run a POP client (or, for that sake, any non-graphical program) in a xterm window, but that does not make it a X program. Thus, you are running a program from X, in a X window, but I wouldn't necessarily call that running under X. I may be wrong, however, for all I know it may be common to say that such programs run under X. Anyhow, that is why I put the quotes there. -- Haavard Vaagstoel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 05:53:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01755 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:53:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA01740 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:53:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hcg@teleport.com) Received: from greymouser.circle-path.org (pdx56-i48-12.teleport.com [204.202.167.26]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA28423; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:57:02 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980625033446.00809730@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hcg@mail.teleport.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good points Tim, but I think it important to point out that without Microsoft we wouldn't have as much processing power on our desks. Heck, I've got an OLD Wang Mini-Frame sitting in my living room. It was used in a medium sized company, cost $15000+ just for the CPU and ran 40 users. Now, I've got roughly 30000 times the processing power, and 200000 times the disk space on my 'low' end computer, and only two people use it. :) I hate to admit it, but without Microsoft, I'd still be using the Wang there, plus, I'd probally be out of a job. > Folks... what do we do about kids entering computing in 1998, whose first > experiences involve Win95 and playing arcade games using DirectX? Who's > going to be around in 20-30 years that cares any more about Unix, other > than a few lost souls in their 60's who earn millions a year because they > can still administer a Unix system? Well, personally, my children will learn a lot about computers, they'll be taught in an X Windows environment to do their homework and play some games, then will later graduate to other OS's if they wish. But then again if they're anything like me (god forbid) then they'll never really play games when they get past college anyways and will still have the important background they need. I think that overall, Unix in general will never be able to compete. Windows based platforms just don't have the scalibility to be able to efficently run any mission critical applications, Windows, is still, and always will be until they do a full rewrite from the ground up of the entire core OS, a 16 bit application, running in a 32 bit world. Almost all Unix systems from the start were meant to be 32 bit. Sure, there are web server, and ftp server, and all kinds of different internet related server software for NT. Microsoft says that NT is out growing Unix in new server applications percentage wise, but forgets to mention that Unix is already such a part of network market that a 5% growth is still more computers then NT's 80% growth in the same market. (At least that's what the numbers were about 2-3 years ago.) In my opinion, the only thing that could REALLY seriously hurt Unix growth at all in the near future is the Millenium Bug (refusing to call it Y2kxwhatever) But again, it has to be pointed out that those people who are going to be running into the problem, have been using (mostly) the same hardware and software for close to 15 years! Windows will NEVER come close to that record. > I think I did a poor job getting across what I was trying to say in this > Email (and perhaps made no sense at all), but I hope it generates some > discussion, especially among people who use multiple OS's like myself and > follow the latest trends in computing. You did a good job Tim, and I agree with you to a certain extent. But I just don't think Unix in general will ever die down. It's got some growing to do to become more popular in the desktop market, but that's really not it's niche (even though Linux seems hell bent on getting there.) That's why Gates is trying to put IE in Windows, he's trying to slowly dominate the Internet/Networking Market too, but will find that he's got competition now, and while it may seem 'outdated,' 'obsolete,' 'useless,' etc, to the general computer using populance... Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 07:43:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18365 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:43:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paradox.cpt.tech.iafrica.com (paradox.cpt.tech.iafrica.com [196.31.1.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18303 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:43:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pbh@iafrica.com) Received: from localhost (pbh@localhost) by paradox.cpt.tech.iafrica.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05458; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:39:01 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from pbh@iafrica.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:39:01 +0200 (SAST) From: Patrick Hyland To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980625033446.00809730@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Somehow, Unix has to catch up with this paradigm if they want any > significant portion of the desktop, not just the server market. X-windows > is a *bare beginning*, but if you think our "average user" is going to want > to edit configuration files by hand to get the desktop look and act the way > they want, you'd have me rolling on the floor laughing. Then they shouldnt be using FreeBSD, Linux or any other flavour of UNIX. Nobody forces someone to use a particular operating system. If joe average is happy with Windoze 95 and thinks thats all there is - then good for him. His PC may crash occasionally and he may naively think that PC's are supposed to crash from time to time. In his little universe it doesnt matter. If joe average decides one day that he doesnt like the fact that when Netscape crashes on his system it brings down his whole operating system and looks for an alternative, thats great too. If he then decides that learning to use UNIX [or vi *grin* (no flames please)] is too difficult and goes back to windoze, nobody cares. The Unix community certainly doesnt care. They dont need users like him. My point is FreeBSD [read Unix] is an intelligent operating system. It is geared at an intelligent user. An intelligent user is a user with an enquiring mind. > Those of us who find the OS itself of interest (everyone on this list) are > obviously still around, but I think we're a dying breed. Desktop computing > is changing rapidly, and Unix is lagging far behind. This is a bad thing. > Does anyone else agree with me? No I dont agree. Granted I work for an ISP - so I wouldnt call the work I do desktop computing, but if I was working elsewhere, id still have a FreeBSD machine. As I said, FreeBSD will never be aimed at your average user - but this is not a bad thing. > Like many others on this list, I enjoy OS's and computers > (hardware/software) FOR THEMSELVES more than for what you can do with them. > I like to edit configuration files (well... I can put up with it anyway, > and am not daunted by it). I enjoy building and repairing computers. I > like experimenting with installing and configuring OS's. These things are > more interesting to me than watching multimedia clips, playing video games > or doing word processing and data entry. > > Folks... what do we do about kids entering computing in 1998, whose first > experiences involve Win95 and playing arcade games using DirectX? Who's > going to be around in 20-30 years that cares any more about Unix, other > than a few lost souls in their 60's who earn millions a year because they > can still administer a Unix system? I think Unix is going to be around for a long time to come. The majority of serious production servers on the Internet are unix based. There is tons of documentation available about Unix for people interested in operating systems. This documentation will still be availble well into the future - as will be Unix. If theres no-one around to care about Unix in 20-30 years [somehow I doubt it], who cares. Windows might not be around either. In fact - whose to say some other nazi doesnt take hold of the OS market leading its minions to believe their product is the only thing. As I said - Unix is aimed at the intelligent user and if no-one cares about it in 20 - 30 years then they dont deserve to care about it. Patrick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 09:37:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06468 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1b.yahoomail.com (send1b.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA06463 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon_v_mendoza@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980625160001.28158.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Received: from [128.58.111.30] by send1b; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:00:00 PDT Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:00:00 -0700 (PDT) From: simon mendoza Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" To: Rick Hamell , Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A few questions to enhaced Tim's discussion: 1) have you all read Victor Orwell's "1994"? 2) Don't you think that the greek theory of "Brutus happiness"(I'm happy because I fish and eat, the rest I don't care) is against democracy?(the greeks stated the fundaments of democracy later developed by the romans) 3) Why shouldn't I think that it is "unnatural" to be tied up with something (be it in the form of an OS or a brand of detergent) and for get about the "freedom of choice" that prevails in this ever changing world? 4) What if it's not UNIX, but GNUOS, BEOS or SARDos, the one that breaks the MS monopoly? and to end this set of questions.. 5) did you know that the Roman empire was so successful that ruled the known world (at that time) but once it dismantled itself was never to revive? Warm greetings to all Simon. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 09:55:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09483 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:55:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09464 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03668 for newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:48:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:48:18 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806251648.JAA03668@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vi In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980625023355.0080e9b0@mx.serv.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:33:55 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >I still have serious doubts that I'll even run into a Unix system where vi >is the only editor accessible on the system.... Quite correct; I expect you'll have ed (and red). Whether or not you'll find ed more palatable than vi, of course, is a different matter.... :-) And, as has been pointed out earlier, there are situations where there is *no* editor available. True story: Seems I had clobbered the /etc/fstab file on my Sun 3/60 (SunOS 4.1.1_U1)... but I didn't realize it until the next reboot. And I didn't have install media. Since fstab wasn't there, the "mount-a" failed. Oh -- and in SunOS 4,x, /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin. This significantly reduced the available suite of tools.... Fortunately, /sbin/sh was there, so I had a command interpreter. "ls" wasn't around, so this made navigation tricky.... Another fortunate thing was that "echo" was a shell built-in. So "echo *" made a nearly passable replacement for "ls". Further, "echo" is what I ended up using to re-create a minimal fstab, in the form: echo "/dev/sd0a / 4.2 rw 1 1" >>/etc/fstab echo "/dev/sd0d /usr 4.2 rw 1 1" >>/etc/fstab Then re-boot -- this time, I had the stuff from /usr/bin -- and use a backup copy (everyone keeps backup copies handy, right?) of fstab to re-create the real fstab file. OK; granted: this is "newbies" -- but I believe it can be useful for folks to realize that others have made mistakes, got out of 'em, and lived to tell about it (and to tell others how they can extricate themselves, should they find themselves in such a position). Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 09:55:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09498 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:55:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09473 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03487 for newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:22:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806251622.JAA03487@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980625033446.00809730@mx.serv.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I think that computers & the software that runs on 'em are, essentially, tools. Some tools are more powerful than others -- compare, say, a handsaw vs. a jigsaw vs. a table saw vs. one of the monstrosities that's used to do the rough trimming of recently-felled logs. I suggest that placing someone without adequate training in front of some of those devices, and expecting same person to accomplish useful work without endagering him- or herself (or others) is naive and foolish. And merely operating tools safely isn't enough; it is also important to understand how the tools are best used, if one is to be able to use the tools to their potential. Sure, there are some folks who will continue to use butter-knives as screwdrivers, and screwdrivers as chisels; that doesn't mean that this is A Good Thing, and it doesn't mean that everyone else should do that, too (especially in the case of using the butter-knife as a screwdriver for a connection on a live circuit). Folks who absolutely insist on being ignorant of the tools that they use may be able to get by on dumb luck (or paying someone who does know); in the mean time, I will try my best to help folks who want to know their tools how they work. And yes, sometimes it helps (me, at least) to understand the Way Things Are by having knowledge of how they got that way. I also believe that setting things up so that a naive person is able to avoid data corruption or loss merely statistically (vs. proper system design) ought, at the very least, be actionable on the grounds that the system was obviously unfit for the purpose(s) intended. Then again, I'm sometimes a bit radical... and I should point out that these are strictly personal opinions, and have no relationship to opinions (if any) held by folks who might represent Whistle (of whom I am not one). Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 09:55:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09662 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09630 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03002 for newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:56:11 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806251456.HAA03002@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980624192451.00804100@mx.serv.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:24:51 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >....One of these days I'll get a program that takes screen >shots, and put one up on my web site :-) xv can do that -- ^G. (It can do a lot of other nice things, too....) Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 10:57:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22211 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:57:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from natsiq.nunanet.com (root@natsiq.nunanet.com [199.247.47.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA22175 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:57:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@nunanet.com) Received: from natsiq.nunanet.com (natsiq.nunanet.com [199.247.47.3]) by natsiq.nunanet.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA11899; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:51:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:51:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcel Mason {Personal} To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980625033446.00809730@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > The > reason this is interesting to me might best be explained by a fictitious > modern discourse with an "average" computer user (such a person doesn't > really exist, but let's pretend they do for now): > > (1) Q: "Does your computer run Win95?" > (2) A: "Yes, it came with my computer." > (3) Q: "What *IS* Win95?" > (4) (puzzled look from the user, then a thoughtful look, then another > puzzled look). A: "It's what I get when I turn on my computer... you know, > the start button and stuff... it lets you run programs, I think..." > (confused look)... That is *really* scary, I went out and asked people whose systems I work on and your dead right ... that is the basic answer I got most of the time. > To me, this explains a lot about how people in 1998 view OS's, and the > reason why the *nix's are niche OS's on the desktop even though most of > them are entirely free, and Microsoft is king, even though you pay through > the nose for their OS's. While I agree completely with your intent the MS/OS itself is pretty cheap compared to the MS software you run on it. I spec'ed out a new "built for *nix machine" recently and when I told them I didn't want Win95 on it the first thing they did *after* asking me if it was really a MAC I wanted was knock $125 Cdn. off the price. The looks I got were just too good to ignore so I told them I wanted FreeBSD 2.2.6, Xwindows, and Enlightenment installed as well :-} > Somehow, Unix has to catch up with this paradigm if they want any > significant portion of the desktop, not just the server market. X-windows > is a *bare beginning*, but if you think our "average user" is going to want > to edit configuration files by hand to get the desktop look and act the way > they want, you'd have me rolling on the floor laughing. Your "average" user is going to by either a Win95 machine or a MAC, all software installed, Internet ready, take it out of the box, plug it in, hit the power button system regardless (IMHO) of what other options are available.... That is what the "average" user wants, that is what MS & MacIntosh provide ..... that's why they're rich, they saw the market & filled the void. > Those of us who find the OS itself of interest (everyone on this list) are > obviously still around, but I think we're a dying breed. Desktop computing > is changing rapidly, and Unix is lagging far behind. This is a bad thing. > Does anyone else agree with me? Almost ... At one point I was 50% of the people in a community of a little over 4,000 who did *anything* with any *nix. At this point, 5 years later, there are double that number .... it's a start > Like many others on this list, I enjoy OS's and computers > (hardware/software) FOR THEMSELVES more than for what you can do with them. > I like to edit configuration files (well... I can put up with it anyway, > and am not daunted by it). I enjoy building and repairing computers. I > like experimenting with installing and configuring OS's. These things are > more interesting to me than watching multimedia clips, playing video games > or doing word processing and data entry. One of the reasons when Windows first came out I said "It's a fad, it will die & I'm not gonna be stuck with a graphic interface that no one uses or delevops software for". I was obviously wrong .... there are not too many out there who want to play with any system configurations, and if they do it is assumed that "Power Tools" will do it for them .... ie, they (the user) has little control over any tweeking. > Folks... what do we do about kids entering computing in 1998, whose first > experiences involve Win95 and playing arcade games using DirectX? Who's > going to be around in 20-30 years that cares any more about Unix, other > than a few lost souls in their 60's who earn millions a year because they > can still administer a Unix system? Well .... I have my Unix dual boot machine at home, my Unix box at work, and a new Unix only machine on the way to my door, my kids (well one of them anyway) already uses FreeBSD at home and because of that he got a summer job at a local ISP (he's 15 btw). > I think I did a poor job getting across what I was trying to say in this > Email (and perhaps made no sense at all), but I hope it generates some > discussion, especially among people who use multiple OS's like myself and > follow the latest trends in computing. You did a great job, something I think that many have thought of but few have committed to e-paper..... Thanks Marcel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 14:59:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06240 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:59:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06204 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:59:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07050; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:56:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980625205612.01094@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:56:12 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wasting time :-) References: <19980625102950.05717@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980623195124.008076a0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980624041543.00805100@mx.serv.net> <19980625102950.05717@welearn.com.au> <19980625152436.65251@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980625015435.00808310@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980625015435.00808310@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Thu, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:54:35AM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:54:35AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Those Eyes-type programs make me nervous as all heck... how can anybody get > any work done with a pair of eyes following their mouse cursor everywhere A couple (well, maybe 4 or 5) years ago I was working on luggable laptops with monochrome or 16 grayscale screens. The mouse cursor had a tendency to 'submarine'. Finding it was made much easier with a pair of eyes indicating the rough direction of its location. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 15:19:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09611 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dot.crosswinds.net (dot.crosswinds.net [209.47.139.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09498 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Genius@glasgow.crosswinds.net) Received: from metallica (th-pm00-25.ndirect.co.uk [195.7.225.25]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA22065 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:19:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from Genius@glasgow.crosswinds.net) Message-ID: <004d01bda087$300f9a80$19e107c3@metallica> From: "Ian O'Friel" To: Subject: This list is too serious, cheer up........... Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:16:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This oughta cheer the list up a bit............. TOP 10 THINGS TO SAY TO WAKE UP YOUR SHRINK 10. "Enough about depression, let's talk about my abduction by space aliens" 9. "Did Luke and Laura find the "Ice Princess" yet? 8. "Wanna go out for some beers?" 7. "I know you didn't ask for one, but I brought you a stool sample." 6. "Boy, that Paxil makes me sleepy, I've had to cut back to one quart of vodka a day." 5. "I've been getting these intense cravings for human blood, is that normal?" 4. "You know, that Jeffery Dahmer wasn't such a bad guy." 3. "While I'm here, would you mind having a look at my hemorrhoids?" 2. "Is that a hairpiece?" And the Number One Thing to Say to Wake Up Your Shrink... 1. "Is that diploma real?" TOP 10 RESOLUTIONS YOU WON'T KEEP IN 1998 10. I will not buy magazines with AOL disks bound-in, just to get another 1.44MB disk. 9. I will stop sending email to my roommate. 8. I resolve to work with neglected children... my own. 7. I will answer my snail mail with the same enthusiasm I answer my email. 6. When I subscribe to a newsgroup or mailing list, I will read all the mail I get from it. 5. I will stay on the computer as long as I want. What? OK, dear... I'm coming. Never mind. 4. No more downloads from alt.binaries.* 3. I resolve to back up my new 6GB hard drive daily... well, once a week... monthly, perhaps... 2. I will spend less than one hour a day on the Net. And the Number One Resolution You Won't Keep in 1998... 1. I won't try to get onto the Netscape ftp site as soon as a new Navigator beta comes out. 0. When I hear "Where do you want to go today?" I won't reply "MS Tech Support." -1. I will read the manual. -2. I will think of a password other than "password." -3. I will limit my top ten lists to ten items. TOP 10 LOONEY 1998 AOL PREDICTIONS 10. AOL will only antagonize 98% of it's customers this year. 9. AOL 4.0 will self destruct and make using AOL virtually impossible... sorta like it is now only better. 8. Ma Bell will sue AOL for loss of long distance charges with it's new talking IM feature if they ever get it to work. 7. Steve Case will buy out Prodigy and add a couple more chat rooms for the overflow. 6. Dr. Kavorkian will be at a LIVE chat this year talking about living to collect social security! 5. AOL will have the new AOL 4.0 come with a built in busy signal to make you think you can't log on until you try many times that way it will be like it always has been for AOL customers. 4. AOL will buy shares in Microsoft Internet Explorer. Now you know why it's included with AOL software. 3. AOL will get President Clinton to do a live chat in The Bowl...but the Secret Service will be checking on all screen names in the audience for typos that could harm his image. 2. Jeff Foxworthy might be an AOLer in 1998 if you see a screen name online of BeARedNeck And the Number One Looney 1998 AOL Prediction... 1. David Letterman will leave CBS and have his own Late Night Live AOL Chat TOP TEN SIGNS YOUR SPOUSE MAY BE HAVING AN ONLINE AFFAIR 10. Lately she sits at the computer naked 9. After signing off, he always has a cigarette 8. The giant rubber inflatable disk drive 7. In the morning, the computer screen is all fogged up 6. He's gotten amazingly good at typing with one hand 5. She makes sarcastic remarks about your "software" 4. Lipstick on the mouse 3. During sex, she screams "A colon backslash enter insert!" 2. The fax file is filled with pictures of someone's butt And the Number One Sign Your Spouse May Be Having an Online Affair 1. The jam in the laser printer is a pair of underwear TOP 10 SIGNS YOUR CO-WORKER IS A COMPUTER HACKER 10. Everyone who ticks him off gets a $26,000 phone bill. 9. He's won the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes three years running. 8. When asked for his phone number, he gives it in hex. 7. Seems strangely calm whenever the office LAN goes down. 6. Somehow gets HBO on his PC at work. 5. Mumbled, "Oh, puh-leeeez!" 295 times during the movie "The Net." 4. Massive 401k contribution made in half-cent increments. 3. His video dating profile lists "public-key encryption" among turn-ons. 2. Instead of the "Welcome" voice on AOL, you overhear, "Good Morning, Mr. President." And the Number One Sign Your Co-Worker is a Computer Hacker... 1. You hear her murmur, "Let's see you use that VISA now, Professor I-Don't-Give-A's-In-Computer-Science!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 16:58:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27367 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:58:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (0@login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27220 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:58:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) Received: from arwen.myst.no (pc33.bergen-pm2-1.eunet.no [193.75.12.40]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id BAA00279; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 01:57:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (hjv@localhost) by arwen.myst.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00558; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:35:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) X-Authentication-Warning: arwen.myst.no: hjv owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:35:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Vaagstoel X-Sender: hjv@arwen.myst.no To: arthur cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, arthur wrote: > .... you can cutomize the background color in .fvwm2rc by tweaking the > line with "xsetroot" in it, personally I set it to black and then use > xloadimage to display gifs or jpgs. Why do you set it to black if you are going to display pictures on it anyway? -- Haavard Vaagstoel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 19:17:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16147 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:17:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16128 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-9.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.73]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18543; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:20:55 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur To: Marcel Mason {Personal} cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Marcel Mason {Personal} wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > > The > > reason this is interesting to me might best be explained by a fictitious > > modern discourse with an "average" computer user (such a person doesn't > > really exist, but let's pretend they do for now): > > > > (1) Q: "Does your computer run Win95?" > > (2) A: "Yes, it came with my computer." > > (3) Q: "What *IS* Win95?" > > (4) (puzzled look from the user, then a thoughtful look, then another > > puzzled look). A: "It's what I get when I turn on my computer... you know, > > the start button and stuff... it lets you run programs, I think..." > > (confused look)... > > That is *really* scary, I went out and asked people whose systems I work > on and your dead right ... that is the basic answer I got most of the > time. > Yes it is scary, and Tim, I feel you could have safely gotten away without using "ficticious" in your above statement, but I'm sure you were just playing it safe. > > Somehow, Unix has to catch up with this paradigm if they want any > > significant portion of the desktop, not just the server market. X-windows > > is a *bare beginning*, but if you think our "average user" is going to want > > to edit configuration files by hand to get the desktop look and act the way > > they want, you'd have me rolling on the floor laughing. > actually comparing FreeBSD to the unix varient I cut my teeth on 7 years ago (Coherent 3.2.1) unix varients have come a long way. Imagine using a unix varient that had no virtual terminals, no X and the only way you could have more than one person using the same box was by having them come in through a serial port with a top baud rate of 9600. At this point I feel it necessary to say I love FreeBSD!!!!!!! > Your "average" user is going to by either a Win95 machine or a MAC, all > software installed, Internet ready, take it out of the box, plug it in, > hit the power button system regardless (IMHO) of what other options > are available.... That is what the "average" user wants, that is what > MS & MacIntosh provide ..... that's why they're rich, they saw the > market & filled the void. > Unfortuneatly, to a wide majority, the home computer is nothing more than an appliance, or form of entertainment, and that makes the above statement very true, and very depressing. Although the up side to that is that hardware prices have become ridiculously low compared to years gone past, and that makes me sooooo happy. > > Those of us who find the OS itself of interest (everyone on this list) are > > obviously still around, but I think we're a dying breed. Desktop computing > > is changing rapidly, and Unix is lagging far behind. This is a bad thing. > > Does anyone else agree with me? > > Almost ... At one point I was 50% of the people in a community of a > little over 4,000 who did *anything* with any *nix. At this point, > 5 years later, there are double that number .... it's a start > I've seen this also, I know administrators that have to work with Novell, Win95, NT, OS/2 and they find it very comforting to come home from work and use a unix varient, mostly FreeBSD, but I do know some that use Linux. > > Like many others on this list, I enjoy OS's and computers > > (hardware/software) FOR THEMSELVES more than for what you can do with them. > > I like to edit configuration files (well... I can put up with it anyway, > > and am not daunted by it). I enjoy building and repairing computers. I > > like experimenting with installing and configuring OS's. These things are > > more interesting to me than watching multimedia clips, playing video games > > or doing word processing and data entry. > > One of the reasons when Windows first came out I said "It's a fad, it will > die & I'm not gonna be stuck with a graphic interface that no one uses > or delevops software for". I was obviously wrong .... there are not > too many out there who want to play with any system configurations, and > if they do it is assumed that "Power Tools" will do it for them .... > ie, they (the user) has little control over any tweeking. > OK, I'm sticking my neck out here for a good thrashing, but! ... since this is "newbies" it might be a good forum to make this statement. In my own personal opinion it almost seems that with the easier net access, easier as apposed to 6-7 years ago, people that are getting frustrated with MS's products go looking for something else, and that, in a way, has made trying a unix varient "trendy" for lack of a better term. Those that don't mind getting down and dirty with config files will stick with it, while others don't. Please, correct me if you feel my opinion is wrong, but that's just the way I see things, and since this is a list of new-to-FreeBSD/unix type users I'd appreciate hearing everyone's reason for looking into this type of operating system. > > > Folks... what do we do about kids entering computing in 1998, whose first > > experiences involve Win95 and playing arcade games using DirectX? Who's > > going to be around in 20-30 years that cares any more about Unix, other > > than a few lost souls in their 60's who earn millions a year because they > > can still administer a Unix system? > > Well .... I have my Unix dual boot machine at home, my Unix box at > work, and a new Unix only machine on the way to my door, my kids > (well one of them anyway) already uses FreeBSD at home and because > of that he got a summer job at a local ISP (he's 15 btw). > If anyone didn't catch my impression above, I feel that the popularity and growth of unix varients is on a major upswing. And not to sound like a history buff, but without the earlier beginnings of unix, there would be no internet today. (my opinion of course) > > I think I did a poor job getting across what I was trying to say in this > > Email (and perhaps made no sense at all), but I hope it generates some > > discussion, especially among people who use multiple OS's like myself and > > follow the latest trends in computing. > > You did a great job, something I think that many have thought of but > few have committed to e-paper..... > I agree, it's comments like these that can bring out very interesting and enlightening conversations without causing an uproar, well I hope my "trendy" statement doesn't cause me too much pain ;) ... as I duck under my desk and hit the send key. (LOL). - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 19:17:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16165 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:17:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16148 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:17:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-9.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.73]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18681; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:21:42 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur Reply-To: arthur To: Haavard Vaagstoel cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fave Window Manager... found it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Haavard Vaagstoel wrote: > On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, arthur wrote: > > > .... you can cutomize the background color in .fvwm2rc by tweaking the > > line with "xsetroot" in it, personally I set it to black and then use > > xloadimage to display gifs or jpgs. > > Why do you set it to black if you are going to display pictures on it > anyway? > ... snicker, good question, I guess the only true answer would be that I had it set for black before I got in the habit of using xloadimage, and realized that even if the image wasn't fullscreen I could set the border color within xloadimage to black. Also from time to time when I'm tweaking the window manager and have to restart things it'll come up black, so I guess in the long run it comes in handy to have the default background color set to something bareable. ltr - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 20:13:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21993 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:13:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from natsiq.nunanet.com (root@natsiq.nunanet.com [199.247.47.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA21956 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@nunanet.com) Received: from morrigan (ppp-199.nunanet.com [199.247.47.199]) by natsiq.nunanet.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA19138; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:06:43 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01bda0af$ece39260$c72ff7c7@morrigan> From: "Marcel Mason" To: "arthur" Cc: "Tim Gerchmez" , Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:10:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----Original Message----- From: arthur Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 10:37 PM Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" > Unfortuneatly, to a wide majority, the home computer is nothing more >than an appliance, or form of entertainment, and that makes the above >statement very true, and very depressing. Although the up side to that >is that hardware prices have become ridiculously low compared to years >gone past, and that makes me sooooo happy. Yes... there is that (the cheap hardware), now if so much of it wasn't plug-n-pray I be a lot happier . Your also dead on the money re: what people use their machines for but there may be a reason for why they are choosing the O/S's that they do. Unfortunately, at this time, there is not a lot available for *nix that your "average" user wants/needs/desires/etc..... I did a lot of searching around for both the O/S *and* the applications I could run on what ever O/S I decided on. Godd 'ole MS would have been a real easy choice based on *only* the applications side of it. I can get office suites, graphics programs, HTML editors, Internet suites, games galore, and more shareware/freeware than you can shake a stick at. Unfortunately the same is not true for FreeBSD. As such, unless someone can point me in the direction of a decent HTML editor for *nix, I still need Win9x (horrors, I supose I could create & edit web pages in pico or vi }}}}}} shudder {{{{{ but I'd rather have a *nix version of Arachnophilia or Galts WebMaster Pro). > OK, I'm sticking my neck out here for a good thrashing, but! ... since >this is "newbies" it might be a good forum to make this statement. In my >own personal opinion it almost seems that with the easier net access, >easier as apposed to 6-7 years ago, people that are getting frustrated >with MS's products go looking for something else, and that, in a way, has >made trying a unix varient "trendy" for lack of a better term. Those that >don't mind getting down and dirty with config files will stick with it, >while others don't. I've got to say that I agree with the first part, people are getting frustrated with MS (I believe) and they are looking for something else but I see the majority of them heading for the MAC G3 store. It would be nice to see *nix a trendy O/S, even to the point where there was enough of us here (locally speaking) to form a user group. > Please, correct me if you feel my opinion is wrong, but that's just the >way I see things, and since this is a list of new-to-FreeBSD/unix type >users I'd appreciate hearing everyone's reason for looking into this >type of operating system. Got tired of MS coming tumbling down around my ears and having to constantly upgrade the hardware to keep up with the software demands. FreeBSD will run on a 486 @ 33 with 8 Meg of RAM *way better* than the same machine could run Win9x. Rising software pricing was also a factor, why would anyone in their right mind want to pay $500+ for an office suite when one ships for almost nada on the FreeBSD CD-ROM? Also got *REAL* tired of having little or no control over what system resources were being used for what and when. I had that control back in the days of DOS ... I wanted it back again. > If anyone didn't catch my impression above, I feel that the popularity >and growth of unix varients is on a major upswing. And not to sound like >a history buff, but without the earlier beginnings of unix, there would be >no internet today. (my opinion of course) It would be nice, but it's not a real problem if a major upswing does not happen. The FreeBSD, Linux, and other free projects will (I hope) continue in the manner they do now. > I agree, it's comments like these that can bring out very interesting >and enlightening conversations without causing an uproar, well I hope >my "trendy" statement doesn't cause me too much pain ;) ... as I duck >under my desk and hit the send key. (LOL). Ah heck, trendy is o/k with me.... bell-bottoms are trendy and they are making a big splash with my daughter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 25 21:27:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02258 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02253 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:27:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/05/18 5.10)) id AAA17827; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:27:25 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts002d18.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.54]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id AAA27705; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35932437.48E4@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:31:51 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Hyland CC: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Think Y2K, see: http://www.garynorth.com Indeed, Unix is for the inquiring mind. Those in search of stability. A kernel that does not allocate equal time to idle applications. Its actually somewhat difficult for a single user with over 8 megs of ram to keep the cpu busy if its over 486/66. But when telecommunications cease, so does Unix. Not to mention the power grid. This is the most important message I've ever seen on this list. Sign me: ML Duke Unix Newbie Operating in winfecesdoz In Order To Focus On Money Making To Prepare To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 05:35:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29015 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 05:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (0@login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA28998 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 05:35:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) Received: from arwen.myst.no (pc52.bergen-pm2-1.eunet.no [193.75.12.59]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id OAA15040; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:34:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (hjv@localhost) by arwen.myst.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00220; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:30:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) X-Authentication-Warning: arwen.myst.no: hjv owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:30:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Vaagstoel X-Sender: hjv@arwen.myst.no To: Marcel Mason cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" In-Reply-To: <000c01bda0af$ece39260$c72ff7c7@morrigan> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Marcel Mason wrote: > a stick at. Unfortunately the same is not true for FreeBSD. As such, > unless someone can point me in the direction of a decent HTML > editor for *nix, I still need Win9x (horrors, I supose I could create & > edit web pages in pico or vi }}}}}} shudder {{{{{ but I'd rather have > a *nix version of Arachnophilia or Galts WebMaster Pro). If you require a WYSIWYG HTML editor, there is one that comes with Netscape Communicator. If you prefer more of a "standard" editor, emacs has a great support for writing HTML (tag higlighting, etc.) -- Haavard Vaagstoel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 06:57:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09773 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 06:57:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1b.yahoomail.com (send1b.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA09737 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 06:57:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon_v_mendoza@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980626135706.22621.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Received: from [128.58.111.30] by send1b; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 06:57:06 PDT Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 06:57:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Simon Mendoza Subject: Re: This list is too serious, cheer up........... To: "Ian O'Friel" , Freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arthur, magnificent, my wife and I had a good laugh at this e-mail, by the way I am sending it to some of my friends at the office, I hope you don't mind. Greetings Simon. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 07:15:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12517 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12485 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:15:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup500.serv.net [207.207.70.65]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03158 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Help - FreeBSD Addiction!!! Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After being awake for almost 36 hrs. straight, most of that spent configuring BSD and Fvwm2, I got 6 hours sleep and am at it again! Is there such a thing as BSD addiction, and is there a support group for it? This is worse than crack cocaine! ;-) ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 07:13:26 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 07:57:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19593 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:57:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19456 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup610.serv.net [207.207.65.10]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05974; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <35932437.48E4@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: ML Duke Subject: RE: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Patrick Hyland Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 ML Duke wrote: > Indeed, Unix is for the inquiring mind. Those in search of stability. > A kernel that does not allocate equal time to idle applications. Its > actually somewhat difficult for a single user with over 8 megs of ram to > keep the cpu busy if its over 486/66. I'll tell you one thing - I'm getting addicted to it! I find myself drifting away from the DOS/Windows environments for the first time since 1987. This kind of stability and power is so seductive, it has kept me awake for 36 hrs straight in front of the computer just enjoying it (kind of scary - is there a Unixaholics Anonymous?) :-) I have a P200MMX with 64 megs RAM, and needless to say, that is a damned nice machine for running Unix on (especially being that I'm not running it as a server - it's a desktop platform here, with some Internet access over a modem). I just wish I had support for my sound card, scanner, Syquest SparQ drive and special drivers for my inkjet printer so I can print in color, etc, not just via a mindless text dump to the printer port. These things need to be worked on for Unix to become a more viable desktop platform (it's the ONLY OS I'd use as a server platform however - Windows NT be damned, unless you like wasting money on quadruple the hardware power to do the same thing Unix can, only not as well). As it is, there's no way I could use it as my sole platform unless I wanted to sell all my hardware and buy all new hardware. My next machine, I will plan SPECIFIC hardware that is supported under BSD, but for now, I have to go back to Windows to do a lot of things. I'm concerned also that when high-speed Internet access becomes viable for the public (via xDSL and related technologies) that BSD will be lagging behind Windows as far as drivers for the new 'modems' goes. That could be a problem, and could cause me to drift back to Windows for a while until it's fixed. ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 07:46:32 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 08:26:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24519 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24475 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup516.serv.net [207.207.70.81]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08339; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000c01bda0af$ece39260$c72ff7c7@morrigan> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Marcel Mason Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, arthur Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 Marcel Mason wrote: > Yes... there is that (the cheap hardware), now if so much of it wasn't > plug-n-pray I be a lot happier . Your also dead on the money > re: what people use their machines for but there may be a reason for > why they are choosing the O/S's that they do. Unfortunately, at this > time, there is not a lot available for *nix that your "average" user > wants/needs/desires/etc..... I did a lot of searching around for both > the O/S *and* the applications I could run on what ever O/S I > decided on. Godd 'ole MS would have been a real easy choice > based on *only* the applications side of it. > > I can get office suites, graphics programs, HTML editors, Internet > suites, games galore, and more shareware/freeware than you can shake > a stick at. Unfortunately the same is not true for FreeBSD. As such, > unless someone can point me in the direction of a decent HTML > editor for *nix, I still need Win9x (horrors, I supose I could create & > edit web pages in pico or vi }}}}}} shudder {{{{{ but I'd rather have > a *nix version of Arachnophilia or Galts WebMaster Pro). Actually, there is no problem on the software side as far as Unix goes - in fact, most of what costs in Windows you get free in Unix, and usually with equal the features and triple the configurability. Honestly, how hard have you looked for an HTML editor for Unix? Have you searched the Net thoroughly? BTW, HTML is so easy to program, why not learn to do it by hand. You say you like control over configurability, well, writing HTML by hand is a breeze and gives you complete control over the layout and display of the pages. To me, it's the only way to fly. Back to the topic of Unix/BSD... hardware drivers are still a problem, and will remain a problem, unfortunately. Since there's little money in it for the people who make the hardware, there's no incentive for them to write drivers (especially for things like sound cards). Also, MS has most of them in their back pocket, and it's tough to get enough information out of many of them to write drivers for the various *nix's (which is sad, since it's their loss... the Unix people will only buy different hardware that *IS* supported). > I've got to say that I agree with the first part, people are getting > frustrated with MS (I believe) Many have been frustrated with MS for a long time already, but lately it has been getting worse. Now state and local governments all over the world are frustrated with them too (grin)... > Got tired of MS coming tumbling down around my ears and having > to constantly upgrade the hardware to keep up with the software > demands. That is a huge pain in the tail, agreed. But I have to say that it's most true in the area of gaming. RAM requirements are going up maybe, but MS Office 97 doesn't really require much more processor power than it did in 1994 - and RAM is cheap as dirt right now. > FreeBSD will run on a 486 @ 33 with 8 Meg of RAM *way > better* than the same machine could run Win9x. That is a definite. X-Windows under FreeBSD is about as "lightweight" as Windows 3.1 was under DOS, in my experience. Runs fine in 8 megs, Win95 definitely runs like a dog in 8 megs (requires 16 for minimal usability, 32+ for any real work). > Rising software > pricing was also a factor, why would anyone in their right mind > want to pay $500+ for an office suite when one ships for almost > nada on the FreeBSD CD-ROM? Well, I hate to mention it, but there's a thriving software piracy on the Internet regarding MS-related products, so if your conscience doesn't bother you in that area (some feel all software should be free, or at least free to try out for awhile before buying), you can get a program or crack for just about anything you want. Unix, none whatsoever, because it's entirely unnecessary, most of the software is already free :-) > Also got *REAL* tired of having little or no control over what system > resources were being used for what and when. I had that > control back in the days of DOS ... I wanted it back again. Actually, you can have that control with Win95 and NT, but it's buried in the system registry and often very difficult to find the information. It's possible to have almost as much control as in the old days, but it takes more work now, since MS is trying to make it so simple for newbies and so difficult to get to the REAL configuration options, other than on the surface. > It would be nice, but it's not a real problem if a major upswing does > not happen. The FreeBSD, Linux, and other free projects will (I hope) > continue in the manner they do now. I think (hope) they will, except that MS domination concerns me somewhat. They are so arrogant though, and their own arrogance may bring them down (in fact, it appears that it already may have begun to bring them down). ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 08:09:36 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 08:28:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24767 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:28:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24731 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup516.serv.net [207.207.70.81]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08481; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980625205612.01094@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: wasting time :-) Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, so maybe there's a potential use for them (maybe on a laptop as well, where the mouse cursor can be hard to spot). But I won't run 'em on my desktop machine :-) On 25-Jun-98 Nik Clayton wrote: > On Thu, Jun 25, 1998 at 01:54:35AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> Those Eyes-type programs make me nervous as all heck... how can anybody get >> any work done with a pair of eyes following their mouse cursor everywhere > > A couple (well, maybe 4 or 5) years ago I was working on luggable laptops > with monochrome or 16 grayscale screens. The mouse cursor had a tendency to > 'submarine'. > > Finding it was made much easier with a pair of eyes indicating the rough > direction of its location. > > N > -- > Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache > Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need > Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 08:27:05 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 08:42:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26900 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26831 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-44.aei.ca [206.186.205.194]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29673; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3593C09B.D33DF952@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:39:07 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Haavard Vaagstoel CC: Marcel Mason , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HTML (was: How important is the "OS?" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Haavard Vaagstoel wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Marcel Mason wrote: > > > a stick at. Unfortunately the same is not true for FreeBSD. As such, > > unless someone can point me in the direction of a decent HTML > > editor for *nix, I still need Win9x (horrors, I supose I could create & > > edit web pages in pico or vi }}}}}} shudder {{{{{ but I'd rather have > > a *nix version of Arachnophilia or Galts WebMaster Pro). > > If you require a WYSIWYG HTML editor, there is one that comes with > Netscape Communicator. If you prefer more of a "standard" editor, emacs > has a great support for writing HTML (tag higlighting, etc.) > -- > Haavard Vaagstoel > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message I dont love WYSIWYG. They always put a lot of unusefull tag. Also: Netscape Composer (netscape's HTML editor) is optimised for Netscape tag. Also, you dont learn anything with WYSIWYG. Buy a book for 10$ or check on the net, but learn how to ;-) Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 08:42:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26983 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:42:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26898 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:41:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA09741 for newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806261541.IAA09741@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years In-Reply-To: <35932437.48E4@concentric.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:31:51 -0600 >From: ML Duke >Its actually somewhat difficult for a single user with over 8 megs of >ram to keep the cpu busy if its over 486/66. ??!? OK... I'll grant that this is -newbies -- but sometimes I think a bit of a reality check is in order. About the only way for the CPU to be idle is to ensure that it doesn't have enough work to do. This may be accomplished by either a lack of work queued, or a bottleneck that prevents the work form getting to the CPU. An example of the former might be a machine that's being used for nothing more demanding than a sole person playing solitaire; most of the time is spent waiting for input. (This is exacerbated in a non-X environment, since X needs to be concerned about all kinds of external events -- mouse movements, button pushes, & the like, which a "dumb TTY" interface just waits for characters (essentially).) Examples of the latter would be a machine that is starved for real memory (so it needs to swap processes in & out of memory; in extreme cases, this can lead to such an imbalance that the machine spends so much time swapping that it doesn't spend enough resources actually doing the desired work to get it done; this is known as "thrashing"), or that is waiting on (say) disk or tape I/O. (Actually, these two can be combined in truly "interesting" ways to exacerbate each other; this is one reason a fast I/O subsystem is important to total system design -- it does no good as far as getting a program run quickly if you've got the fastest CPU in the world, but you can't get the data into the CPU at a reasonable rate: the process, as a whole, will have I/O as a bottleneck. And swapping is a form of I/O....) In practice, for example, I might have picked up a new program (for example, the "ssh" distribution), unpack it, start the configuration for it; once that's started, open up another window & fetch (say) the "amanda" distribution. Go back to "ssh" & type "make", then go back to amanda, unpack that & configure it. Start reading news, go back to amanda & type "make".... Or, if you just want to burn CPU cycles, there's an algorithm for summing the reciprocals of the factorials -- works out to be "e" (the base of natural logarithms, a transcendental irrational number, the value of which (in decimal) is approximately 2.718281828459045...). I've calculated it to several thousand decimal places.... :-) Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 08:47:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27783 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:47:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27693 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/05/18 5.10)) id LAA20154; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:46:24 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts002d16.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.52]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id LAA16121; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3593C35A.5EC0@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:50:51 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fewtch@serv.net CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Patrick Hyland Subject: Re: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > On 26-Jun-98 ML Duke wrote: Interesting. Your comments focused entirely upon the unimportant part of the issue raised. Is it possibly you missed it? The point is, think Y2K and visit: http://www.garynorth.com ML Duke > > Indeed, Unix is for the inquiring mind. Those in search of stability. > > A kernel that does not allocate equal time to idle applications. Its > > actually somewhat difficult for a single user with over 8 megs of ram to > > keep the cpu busy if its over 486/66. > > I'll tell you one thing - I'm getting addicted to it! I find myself drifting > away from the DOS/Windows environments for the first time since 1987. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 08:52:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28673 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA28534 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:51:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA09816 for newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:50:19 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806261550.IAA09816@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" In-Reply-To: <000c01bda0af$ece39260$c72ff7c7@morrigan> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From: "Marcel Mason" >Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:10:06 -0400 >a stick at. Unfortunately the same is not true for FreeBSD. As such, >unless someone can point me in the direction of a decent HTML >editor for *nix, I still need Win9x (horrors, I supose I could create & >edit web pages in pico or vi }}}}}} shudder {{{{{ but I'd rather have >a *nix version of Arachnophilia or Galts WebMaster Pro). What, pray tell, is wrong with using a text editor to write programs? Please recall that the final letter of "HTML" stands for "Language". In practice, I find that have some (different) Web browsers pointed at a page under construction on a Web server, and having a window open on the page (or the CGI script that generates the page, or the data that the CGI script reads to generate the page -- maybe multiple windows, one for each source) works just fine. And it helps avoid the "well, it works with *this* browser" syndrome. (Might also have a window open on a similar set of page(-generation tool)s that already work, as an example, too....) It's simple; it's easy to use; I can see the results... and I can control what happens. Then again, I dislike driving an automobile with an automatic transmission.... :-} Each to his or her own, though, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 09:14:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03330 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03245 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup417.serv.net [207.207.70.18]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12230; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <19980625160001.28158.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: simon mendoza Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Rick Hamell Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-Jun-98 simon mendoza wrote: > A few questions to enhaced Tim's discussion: > > 1) have you all read Victor Orwell's "1994"? I read it a long time ago (BTW, I believe it was called '1984' - so what's one decade anyway ;-) Terrifying book. Thankfully, we're nowhere near that state - in fact, the breakdown of 'communism' in the early 90's practically guaranteed us another 30-50 years of avoiding anything resembling the society in the book '1984.' If you start to comment on MS and the book 1984, I don't think the two are even close to related. 1984 involved the world in general, not the world of computing, and although MS is slowly getting into more markets (and computing is getting more popular), they are still basically focused on computers. I don't think MS wants to take over the world - they just want to take over computers (and there's still a lot more to the world than that). Let's not make too much of MS and give them more power than they actually have. That only encourages them to try to gather more power. > 2) Don't you think that the greek theory of "Brutus happiness"(I'm > happy because I fish and eat, the rest I don't care) is against > democracy?(the greeks stated the fundaments of democracy later > developed by the romans) I won't speculate on that one. > 3) Why shouldn't I think that it is "unnatural" to be tied up with > something (be it in the form of an OS or a brand of detergent) and > for get about the "freedom of choice" that prevails in this ever > changing world? In fact, it's very natural. People WANT standards, they want to buy a computer with an OS on it and have it work out of the box, and have every computer store carry software that will work on their PC. That's one reason why MS has managed to gather so much power in the computing world. They have encouraged standardization (their OWN standards, of course, but standards nonetheless). That is what people want, and rightly so. What's wrong about it is that all the standards are tied to one company, and are not open standards, but closed standards. That tends to eliminate competition and encourages monopoly. The world NEEDS a standard OS... but it should be an OS that isn't tied to one company that pulls all the puppet strings. Unfortunately, although efforts have been made in the area of creating such an OS, none have been successful as of yet. > 4) What if it's not UNIX, but GNUOS, BEOS or SARDos, the one that > breaks the MS monopoly? Wouldn't bother me a bit. Anything that breaks the 'monopoly' (I put it in quotes because I don't think it's a true monopoly yet, although it's headed in that direction) and offers people more choice is a good thing. If the world standardized on BeOS, I would probably wipe my hard drive and install BeOS (or keep a dual boot system). *I* want standards too, and I want to be able to find a lot of software for the OS I use the most. > and to end this set of questions.. > 5) did you know that the Roman empire was so successful that ruled the > known world (at that time) but once it dismantled itself was never to > revive? Yes. I can practically guarantee you in 50 years nobody will remember Windows, except as a nostalgic thing of the past. ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 08:53:13 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 10:03:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10802 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:03:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10706 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup510.serv.net [207.207.70.75]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16424; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Marcel Mason {Personal} Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-Jun-98 Marcel Mason {Personal} wrote: > While I agree completely with your intent the MS/OS itself is pretty > cheap compared to the MS software you run on it. That's true, although if your conscience doesn't bother you about such things, just about any commercial software package can be found on the Net free, if you know where to look... > I spec'ed out a new > "built for *nix machine" recently and when I told them I didn't want > Win95 on it the first thing they did *after* asking me if it was > really a MAC I wanted was knock $125 Cdn. off the price. The looks I > got were just too good to ignore so I told them I wanted FreeBSD 2.2.6, > Xwindows, and Enlightenment installed as well :-} ROFL!!! I would have loved to see their faces when you told these sales droids you wanted FreeBSD, X and Enlightenment... they probably went to the back to look for a guru, and told you they would contact the manager and to call back later about it... > Your "average" user is going to by either a Win95 machine or a MAC, all > software installed, Internet ready, take it out of the box, plug it in, > hit the power button system regardless (IMHO) of what other options > are available.... That is what the "average" user wants, that is what > MS & MacIntosh provide ..... that's why they're rich, they saw the > market & filled the void. Too true... of course the average user also wants to add some software on, usually games. So they get a store-bought PC with the basic package (MS Office 97 standard edition, usually, and MSIE 4.0, with a modem), and add some games on CDROM... and that's it... To me that is so incredibly boring, I'd rather lie in a grave for a while than use such a system. > Almost ... At one point I was 50% of the people in a community of a > little over 4,000 who did *anything* with any *nix. At this point, > 5 years later, there are double that number .... it's a start ..and I have finally joined the fray, after thinking for so long that I would *never* have any interest or need for a Unix system. All I needed was to give it a good try. Now I'm hooked, and this is making computing exciting again, like it was in 1983 when I got my first computer (a Commodore 64)... I couldn't sleep nights, I would wake up in the morning and jump out of bed to turn it on and discover more... Unix is becoming like that to me. > One of the reasons when Windows first came out I said "It's a fad, it will > die & I'm not gonna be stuck with a graphic interface that no one uses > or delevops software for". I was obviously wrong .... there are not > too many out there who want to play with any system configurations, and > if they do it is assumed that "Power Tools" will do it for them .... > ie, they (the user) has little control over any tweeking. Well, the control can be had, but it's buried in the registry, and information is difficult to come by. It can be done, but it's much more difficult to tweak a Win95 system to perfection than it was with Win 3.1 (since most of the tweaks for that were in system.ini or were DOS-based). > Well .... I have my Unix dual boot machine at home, my Unix box at > work, and a new Unix only machine on the way to my door, my kids > (well one of them anyway) already uses FreeBSD at home and because > of that he got a summer job at a local ISP (he's 15 btw). Cool... maybe I'm wrong, not all kids are interested only in gaming, especially teenagers... I'm more concerned with the younger ones though... > You did a great job, something I think that many have thought of but > few have committed to e-paper..... > > Thanks Thanks yourself for the comments... ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 08:37:51 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 10:05:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11306 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:05:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11199 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:05:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup510.serv.net [207.207.70.75]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16699; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Subject: Re: Help - FreeBSD Addiction!!! Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yikes... if I had known BSD was like the Borg and that I would be assimilated, I might have stuck with Win95 only ... On 26-Jun-98 Kevin G. Eliuk wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > => > => After being awake for almost 36 hrs. straight, most of that spent > configuring > => BSD and Fvwm2, I got 6 hours sleep and am at it again! Is there such a > thing > => as BSD addiction, and is there a support group for it? This is worse than > => crack cocaine! ;-) > > There's no way back. Resistance is futile ;-} > > Regards, Kevin G. Eliuk ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 10:03:36 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 10:10:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12736 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:10:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12586 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup510.serv.net [207.207.70.75]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17165; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3593C35A.5EC0@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: ML Duke Subject: Re: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years Cc: Patrick Hyland , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 ML Duke wrote: > Interesting. Your comments focused entirely upon the unimportant part > of the issue raised. Is it possibly you missed it? No, the fact is that I personally am unconcerned with Y2K issues as of yet. I'm not a business, I'm a home user, and I don't even run any software I know of that would be affected (and I don't program in C at the current time, either). The worst that's gonna happen is that my Email will be dated 1900. Big deal, so anyone with cerebrospinal fluid where their brain is supposed to be might think it's 1900. Maybe they'll go looking for Thomas Edison for light bulbs instead of going to the supermarket. > The point is, think Y2K and visit: > > http://www.garynorth.com Maybe I'll take the time around November, 1999. Right now, I'm not interested. Others probably should be though. ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 10:06:03 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 11:00:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25519 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:00:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.axess.com (mail.axess.com [204.19.206.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25392 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ppawel@axess.com) Received: from ppawel (ppp-42.axess.com [204.19.207.42]) by mail.axess.com (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id OAA03232 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:00:44 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980626135231.007b6100@mail.axess.com> X-Sender: ppawel@mail.axess.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:52:31 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Peter D. Pawelek" Subject: RE: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years In-Reply-To: References: <35932437.48E4@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:56 AM 6/26/98 -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >I'll tell you one thing - I'm getting addicted to it! I find myself drifting >away from the DOS/Windows environments for the first time since 1987. This >kind of stability and power is so seductive, it has kept me awake for 36 hrs >straight in front of the computer just enjoying it (kind of scary - is there a >Unixaholics Anonymous?) :-) Ahh...at this rate he'll be using Vi within a week (and loving it).... ;) Peter (ppawel@axess.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 11:41:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05040 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:41:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05017 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup508.serv.net [207.207.70.73]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26072; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199806261541.IAA09741@pau-amma.whistle.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: David Wolfskill Subject: Re: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 David Wolfskill wrote: > OK... I'll grant that this is -newbies -- but sometimes I think a bit of > a reality check is in order. > > About the only way for the CPU to be idle is to ensure that it doesn't > have enough work to do. OK, so how does one keep a P200MMX constantly busy under FreeBSD? Maybe write a script with an endless loop in it and just the statement "fsck -y?" > Or, if you just want to burn CPU cycles, there's an algorithm for > summing the reciprocals of the factorials -- works out to be "e" (the > base of natural logarithms, a transcendental irrational number, the > value of which (in decimal) is approximately 2.718281828459045...). I've > calculated it to several thousand decimal places.... :-) Doesn't the BSD kernel halt the CPU when it isn't busy (most modern OS's (aside from Win95)) do. Why not just save the power and let your CPU go into standby mode? ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 11:36:47 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 11:51:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06640 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:51:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06585 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:50:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup508.serv.net [207.207.70.73]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26875; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199806261550.IAA09816@pau-amma.whistle.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: David Wolfskill Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 David Wolfskill wrote: > > > What, pray tell, is wrong with using a text editor to write programs? > > Please recall that the final letter of "HTML" stands for "Language". I agree with you 99% here David... I *almost* always do my web pages entirely by hand. However, it DOES make it difficult to create very complex pages with complicated layouts, especially with a lot of frames, forms and tables. A wysiwyg editor can help under those circumstances, and you can always edit the final output by hand. Generally if I'm designing a very complex web page/series of pages (which is almost never, since I hate complex web pages :-) I'll resort to some kind of web designer program to assist in the initial stages. > Then again, I dislike driving an automobile with an automatic > transmission.... :-} Actually, here I have to disagree... automatic transmissions have MAJOR advantages over manual, afaic. Your car is far better than you at determining what gear it needs to be in, IMO, and you're likely to actually save gas with an automatic transmission, as well as put less wear and tear on the engine. I like being in control of things as much as you do, but this is one area where I prefer to let modern technology take care of itself. > Each to his or her own, though, True, true... ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 11:42:20 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 11:54:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00555 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (pme86.sunshine.net [209.17.178.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00333 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:59:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA01682; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:59:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help - FreeBSD Addiction!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: => => After being awake for almost 36 hrs. straight, most of that spent configuring => BSD and Fvwm2, I got 6 hours sleep and am at it again! Is there such a thing => as BSD addiction, and is there a support group for it? This is worse than => crack cocaine! ;-) There's no way back. Resistance is futile ;-} Regards, Discover Rock Solid Kevin G. Eliuk Discover FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSD.Org --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==----==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- All of my opinions are my own and in no way reflect those of my employers, past, present, or future, either real or imagined. --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 12:07:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09795 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:07:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09734 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup425.serv.net [207.207.70.26]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28377; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: arthur Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Marcel Mason {Personal} Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 arthur wrote: > Yes it is scary, and Tim, I feel you could have safely gotten away > without using "ficticious" in your above statement, but I'm sure you > were just playing it safe. Not really. There really is no such thing as an "average" anything. "The average computer user" is a stereotype, plain and simple, and human beings are too complex to fit perfectly into stereotypes (at least 99.9% are). > At this point I feel it necessary to say I love FreeBSD!!!!!!! I'll have to agree with that one... it sure grows on you as time goes by and you learn more.. the more I learn, the more I come to appreciate it. Yesterday I appreciated it for 36 hours straight with literally about 4 short breaks to grab a bite to eat and go to the restroom :-) Today, I booted Win95 once... to check my modem string in the registry. Then it was instant reboot (a program I wrote to instantly reboot the computer from Win95, BTW) and back to BSD. > Unfortuneatly, to a wide majority, the home computer is nothing more > than an appliance, or form of entertainment, and that makes the above > statement very true, and very depressing. Although the up side to that > is that hardware prices have become ridiculously low compared to years > gone past, and that makes me sooooo happy. Ditto, especially with RAM and hard drive prices. Remember when a 4 meg stick of RAM cost $120 or so? What you probably don't remember was that was in 1995, just 3 years ago!! I remember starting a thread in a Usenet newsgroup titled "RAM prices outrageous!" - ironically, about 3 days after posting that message, RAM prices began their precipitous fall. > OK, I'm sticking my neck out here for a good thrashing, but! ... since > this is "newbies" it might be a good forum to make this statement. In my > own personal opinion it almost seems that with the easier net access, > easier as apposed to 6-7 years ago, people that are getting frustrated > with MS's products go looking for something else, and that, in a way, has > made trying a unix varient "trendy" for lack of a better term. Those that > don't mind getting down and dirty with config files will stick with it, > while others don't. They also have to have one or both of of the following: (1) A high frustration tolerance, especially in the beginning (2) A lot of general computer and OS knowledge. Either/or usually means that the person will stick with it to the point of feeling comfortable in the Unix environment. The second factor especially helps. A raw newbie to computers is unlikely to stick with a Unix variant, even with a very high tolerance for frustration. The learning curve in the first few weeks/months is just too steep. The nice thing is that curve levels out soon afterwards. > Please, correct me if you feel my opinion is wrong, Just to point out, opinions are never wrong or right, simply opinions. Everyone has them, and everyone has a right to them, even if they disagree with 99% of everyone else's opinion. Defend your opinions to the death - it's your &deity-given right to have them! > but that's just the > way I see things, and since this is a list of new-to-FreeBSD/unix type > users I'd appreciate hearing everyone's reason for looking into this > type of operating system. My personal reason? I was getting bored with Win95 and NT and looking for something new to play with. You'll get a different answer from everyone. > If anyone didn't catch my impression above, I feel that the popularity > and growth of unix varients is on a major upswing. Do you have any data to support that conclusion? I'm not disagreeing, just wondering if there's some hard data to support the conclusion. > And not to sound like > a history buff, but without the earlier beginnings of unix, there would be > no internet today. (my opinion of course) Once again, a possibility, but no supporting data. ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 11:51:54 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 12:30:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12572 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12508 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:29:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup504.serv.net [207.207.70.69]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00240; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Patrick Hyland Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-Jun-98 Patrick Hyland wrote: > Then they shouldnt be using FreeBSD, Linux or any other flavour of UNIX. > Nobody forces someone to use a particular operating system. If joe average > is happy with Windoze 95 and thinks thats all there is - then good for him. Good for him, not-so-good for Unix. The more people using Unix, the better off Unix is - more software written, more hardware drivers developed, more documentation written, more help available. > My point is FreeBSD [read Unix] is an intelligent operating system. It is > geared at an intelligent user. An intelligent user is a user with an enquiring > mind. I agree with your point. In fact, I'd take it further to state that "the average" Unix user is probably more intelligent than "the average" Win95 user, simply because they have to be to figure out how to install, configure and administer their system. The learning curve in the beginning with some flavors of Unix can be monstrously steep, and it takes intelligence and sticktuitiveness (I love that world) to learn it. BSD has a below-average learning curve as far as the unices go, IMO, but it still requires a lot of learning before you can do much of anything useful. > As I said, FreeBSD will never be aimed at your average user - but this is not > a bad thing. It's not a good thing, either. I want drivers for my damned sound card and SparQ drive, and I won't get them until the companies that make them feel enough people are using BSD to justify the manpower required to write a driver (or to justify releasing detailed proprietary information to an individual who wants to write one). > I think Unix is going to be around for a long time to come. The majority of > serious production servers on the Internet are unix based. There is tons of > documentation available about Unix for people interested in operating > systems. > This documentation will still be availble well into the future - as will be > Unix. Availability isn't the question - the real question is, will it still be actively developed and improved upon? The CP/M OS is still available too, and it has a small core of dedicated users who won't use anything else. This isn't where I'd like to see Unix end up. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 12:18:52 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 12:41:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14725 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:41:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14553 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:40:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26047; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:39:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id OAA21478; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:39:23 -0500 Message-ID: <19980626143922.04461@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:39:22 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: fewtch@serv.net Cc: David Wolfskill , newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years References: <199806261541.IAA09741@pau-amma.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Gerchmez on Jun 06, 1998 at 11:41:37AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 06, 1998 at 11:41:37AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > On 26-Jun-98 David Wolfskill wrote: > > > OK... I'll grant that this is -newbies -- but sometimes I think a bit of > > a reality check is in order. > > > > About the only way for the CPU to be idle is to ensure that it doesn't > > have enough work to do. > > OK, so how does one keep a P200MMX constantly busy under FreeBSD? Run rc5, of course. (see http://www.circle.net/team-freebsd) -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 12:48:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16251 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:48:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16141 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:47:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup445.serv.net [207.207.70.46]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01624; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Rick Hamell Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-Jun-98 Rick Hamell wrote: > Good points Tim, but I think it important to point out that > without Microsoft we wouldn't have as much processing power on our desks. That's definitely true (and the hardware we have would be far more expensive as well), but this wasn't caused by Microsoft on purpose, of course. It's because the bloatware they release requires powerful hardware to run (also, I have to give some of the credit to the computer game companies as well, not just MS - computer game development is also responsible to a great extent for increase in hardware power). I'm glad it was a useful side effect, but I'm afraid I can't give MS direct credit for it. They didn't go to hardware manufacturers and ask them to drop their prices, or go to factories and encourage development of more advanced hardware. > I think that overall, Unix in general will never be able to > compete. I'm assuming you mean as a general desktop platform. If you're talking servers (especially Internet and *large* company Intranet servers), it's MS OS's that will never be able to compete (or at least will never "win" the competition to the extent that they become the majority). > Windows based platforms just don't have the scalibility to be > able to efficently run any mission critical applications, Windows, is > still, and always will be until they do a full rewrite from the ground up > of the entire core OS, a 16 bit application, running in a 32 bit world. Which Windows? Win NT is 32-bit from the ground up. Win95 still includes some 16-bit components, but the majority (>50%) of it is 32-bit (the OSR2 release of Win95 increased this percentage by a certain amount as well). If you're really interested in knowing the truth about Windows in this area, read Andrew Schulman(sp?)'s books ("Undocumented Win95 secrets" and others). > Almost all Unix systems from the start were meant to be 32 bit. Not before 32-bit microprocessors appeared :-) (at least not on the Wintel platforms). > You did a good job Tim, and I agree with you to a certain extent. > But I just don't think Unix in general will ever die down. No, but it could be driven further and further into a small vertical niche, until it's so caught between the vice of Microsoft's OS's that only hobbyists and a few ISP's still use it. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 12:31:31 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 12:56:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17966 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17903 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:55:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup445.serv.net [207.207.70.46]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02401; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980626143922.04461@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Jonathan Lemon Subject: Re: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, David Wolfskill Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was already involved in that at one point, and got disgusted at their inability to keep their stats updated, and their constant diversions for things such as the DES challenge. I will no longer be participating in that effort. On 26-Jun-98 Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On Jun 06, 1998 at 11:41:37AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> >> OK, so how does one keep a P200MMX constantly busy under FreeBSD? > > Run rc5, of course. (see http://www.circle.net/team-freebsd) > -- > Jonathan ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 12:53:32 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 13:16:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21934 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:16:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21886 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/05/18 5.10)) id QAA03706; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:15:55 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts001d03.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.15]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id QAA28309; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35940285.4C7C@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:20:21 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fewtch@serv.net CC: simon mendoza , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Rick Hamell Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > 1) have you all read Victor Orwell's "1994"? Its neccessary to interject on this one. From what I've seen, 90% of the people on this list know more BSD than I do, but awareness is sure lacking elsewhere which I guess is normal. It was "1984" and it was "George" Orwell, but those are unimportant errors. The serious error is to think our current society is not related to Orwell's "fictional" one. But Orwell's "double speak" has been renamed: Its called "political correctness." We are living in it. _Now_. The news is heavily censored, biased and full of downright deliberate disinformation. Anyone who believes the news (major media) is living in la la land. A lawyer at the time recently moved from Moscow to Anchorage once told me our system was far more "perfect" than Russia's from the government point of view. In Russia, she said, the media lies and everyone knows its a lie and so ignore it. Here, she said, the media lies better and nobody seems to know it. Communism did not die. Quite the opposite it has arrived. We have current political by the hundreds and perhaps thousands. The federal government has been jailing and murdering people for years now. Now local police forces have joined them, and all across the nation people are deprived of both freedom and property in the complete absence of due process. The Constitution ceased to be the law of the land long ago. Now its nothing more than routinely required lip service. This post could be a book, and I'm probably wasting my time, so I'll quit. Anyone interested can read the EO's (Executive Orders). A contrary answer in the absence of reading _at least_ that much will be a waste of more time. ML Duke > I read it a long time ago (BTW, I believe it was called '1984' - so what's one > decade anyway ;-) Terrifying book. Thankfully, we're nowhere near that state > - in fact, the breakdown of 'communism' in the early 90's practically > guaranteed us another 30-50 years of avoiding anything resembling the society in > the book '1984.' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 13:26:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23848 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:26:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23826 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup445.serv.net [207.207.70.46]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04965; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <35940285.4C7C@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: ML Duke Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: Rick Hamell , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, simon mendoza Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This stuff is interesting and controversial, but completely off-topic in freebsd-newbies. On 26-Jun-98 ML Duke wrote: >> > 1) have you all read Victor Orwell's "1994"? > > Its neccessary to interject on this one. From what I've seen, 90% of > the people on this list know more BSD than I do, but awareness is sure > lacking elsewhere which I guess is normal. > > It was "1984" and it was "George" Orwell, but those are unimportant > errors. The serious error is to think our current society is not > related to Orwell's "fictional" one. But Orwell's "double speak" has > been renamed: Its called "political correctness." ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 13:25:28 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 15:10:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15743 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:10:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15683 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:10:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts1-27.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.59]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA21099; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:14:58 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > On 26-Jun-98 arthur wrote: > > > Unfortuneatly, to a wide majority, the home computer is nothing more > > than an appliance, or form of entertainment, and that makes the above > > statement very true, and very depressing. Although the up side to that > > is that hardware prices have become ridiculously low compared to years > > gone past, and that makes me sooooo happy. > > Ditto, especially with RAM and hard drive prices. Remember when a 4 meg stick > of RAM cost $120 or so? What you probably don't remember was that was in 1995, > just 3 years ago!! I remember starting a thread in a Usenet newsgroup titled > "RAM prices outrageous!" - ironically, about 3 days after posting that message, > RAM prices began their precipitous fall. > yeah I remember when a 30 pin 1mb cost close to $100, now I use the same simm as a keychain. > > but that's just the > > way I see things, and since this is a list of new-to-FreeBSD/unix type > > users I'd appreciate hearing everyone's reason for looking into this > > type of operating system. > > My personal reason? I was getting bored with Win95 and NT and looking for > something new to play with. You'll get a different answer from everyone. > Hopefully, the more answers the better, some might help others see what can be done with an o/s like this one. > > If anyone didn't catch my impression above, I feel that the popularity > > and growth of unix varients is on a major upswing. > > Do you have any data to support that conclusion? I'm not disagreeing, just > wondering if there's some hard data to support the conclusion. > Not really, just what I've seen and heard since I've been lurking around these lists. But when I was new to FreeBSD -newbies wasn't around, thanx Sue, and I feel that's a little of an indication for FreeBSD. As for other unix varients I can't really say, but I do hear of others that are getting into Linux and such. Unfortunately I think it's safe to say that what ever the growth of unix varients is, it doesn't compare to the amount of Win95 boxes that have been setup during that same time, but it's a start and that is a good thing, at least it proves that there are still people out there that are serious about getting into computers. > > And not to sound like > > a history buff, but without the earlier beginnings of unix, there would be > > no internet today. (my opinion of course) > > Once again, a possibility, but no supporting data. > Well if memory serves me correctly, TCP/IP was developed in a unix environmet, large scale data comunication was also a unix development, and without those two early beginnings the "Internet" wouldn't be what it is today. But I feel it's important to state that some of my opinions of how things are, are based on what I've seen, heard or read, and that in no way are these opinions concrete evidence of how things have come along over the years. Although I do hope my opinions are taken with a grain of salt and used as something to get good conversations going in which I can learn more. I don't mind being a little off, since being corrected is a good way of learning more. And for God's sake I hope people don't think I'm trying to be overly serious, I just enjoy learning more about the computer environment I've decided to use. In fact my first installation of FreeBSD was with a good friend of mine and a flat of beer, we had gotten the FreeBSD box up, running and connected to the net within an hour, not bad for the first time out I feel ;) since then I haven't looked back, FreeBSD is all I use for my personal systems. It's nice to have an operationg system that fills my needs and desires. The hour time limit was just for getting the o/s running, hardware times may vary with different brands or amounts of beer consumed. ltr - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 15:15:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16246 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16214 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:14:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02209; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA03894; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:14:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell1.cybercom.net: ksmm owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:14:26 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive X-Sender: ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net To: Tim Gerchmez cc: arthur , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Marcel Mason {Personal} Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: : Ditto, especially with RAM and hard drive prices. Remember when a 4 meg : stick of RAM cost $120 or so? What you probably don't remember was that : was in 1995, just 3 years ago!! I remember starting a thread in a : Usenet newsgroup titled "RAM prices outrageous!" - ironically, about 3 : days after posting that message, RAM prices began their precipitous : fall. Oh, really? Why don't you start a new thread about Voodoo 2 prices or 400 MHz Pentium II prices or something? For that matter, I really like those new Lexuses... :-) K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 15:24:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17125 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tvweek.com.ua ([195.5.38.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17041 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:22:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima@tvweek.com.ua) Received: from myhome (dialup11.viaduk.net [195.5.4.199]) by tvweek.com.ua (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA05161 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 04:19:12 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <006c01bda150$8a1f3ac0$c70405c3@myhome.tvweek.kiev.ua> From: "=?windows-1251?B?xOzo8vDo6SDB5efz4+v76Q==?=" To: Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:19:32 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01BDA169.A3AB6A40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BDA169.A3AB6A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I try mount multi-session CD-ROM under FreeBSD 2.2.1 and have got a = first session :(=20 How i can got other sessions ? If it possible ..... _______________________________ E-mail : Dmitry Bezugle dima@tvweek.com.ua 27-06-98 ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BDA169.A3AB6A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I try mount multi-session CD-ROM under FreeBSD 2.2.1 = and have=20 got a first session :(
How i can got other sessions ? If it possible=20 .....
_______________________________
E-mail : Dmitry Bezugle dima@tvweek.com.ua
27-06-98
------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BDA169.A3AB6A40-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 16:25:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25603 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:25:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25475 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:24:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-8.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.72]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA06313; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:26:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:28:58 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur Reply-To: arthur To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > I'm concerned also that when high-speed Internet access becomes viable for > the public (via xDSL and related technologies) that BSD will be lagging behind > Windows as far as drivers for the new 'modems' goes. That could be a problem, > and could cause me to drift back to Windows for a while until it's fixed. > ... The only info I've gotten that I've found useful was talking to the tech of the local cable co. here where I live, in regards to cable modems he claimed that any system with a net card in it would work, so I'm really looking forward to them getting that running, hopefully by the fall if they do things right. I also noticed that he was more willing to talk to me once he found out that I was using a unix varient, I wonder why that is? :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 16:25:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25798 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:25:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25671 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:25:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-8.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.72]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA06425; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:29:38 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur Reply-To: arthur To: David Wolfskill cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years In-Reply-To: <199806261541.IAA09741@pau-amma.whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, David Wolfskill wrote: > Or, if you just want to burn CPU cycles, there's an algorithm for > summing the reciprocals of the factorials -- works out to be "e" (the > base of natural logarithms, a transcendental irrational number, the > value of which (in decimal) is approximately 2.718281828459045...). I've > calculated it to several thousand decimal places.... :-) > > Cheers, > david > -- > David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator > dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 > ...the above statement alone proves that there are some unix admins that have too much time on their hands due to fact that they are using a most efficient operating system. (tongue firmly planted in cheek) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 16:26:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25966 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:26:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25827 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-8.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.72]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA06517; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:30:12 -0300 (ADT) From: arthur Reply-To: arthur To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help - FreeBSD Addiction!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > After being awake for almost 36 hrs. straight, most of that spent configuring > BSD and Fvwm2, I got 6 hours sleep and am at it again! Is there such a thing > as BSD addiction, and is there a support group for it? This is worse than > crack cocaine! ;-) > ... I hope there isn't a support group for it, my girlfriend will make me join, and I rather like this addiction. My only problem is that I'm running out of hardware and space to put more systems together, maybe I'm obsessed with it, either way, it's a great trip. ltr - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 19:24:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24839 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:24:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24833 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:24:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup505.serv.net [207.207.70.70]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04047; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: arthur Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 arthur wrote: > And for God's sake I hope people don't think I'm trying to be overly > serious, I just enjoy learning more about the computer environment I've > decided to use. In fact my first installation of FreeBSD was with a good > friend of mine and a flat of beer, we had gotten the FreeBSD box up, > running and connected to the net within an hour, not bad for the first > time out I feel ;) Hell, a lot better than "not bad"... especially if you were buzzing on beer at the time ... Then again, some people think even BETTER after a few beers... :-) > since then I haven't looked back, FreeBSD is all I > use for my personal systems. It's nice to have an operationg system that > fills my needs and desires. I wish I could say/do the same, but unfortunately for anyone looking to make any money related to computers (unless you become a Unix system administrator), the Windows platforms are where most of the bucks are floating around. I'm currently on disability and looking to get off it eventually, and I supplement my paltry income with shareware checks. Unix shareware is few and far between, and I'll bet registrations are even more rare, being that you could find something similar to just about anything you can do under Unix for free, or write it yourself (many Unix users are also programmers). Also, there is simply more hardware drivers, and more commercial software available for Wintel. So although I wish BSD was enough for me and I could go back to a single boot system, it's not gonna happen in any forseeable time frame. I DO find myself using Win95 a heck of a lot less than I was, though :-)... It's just not as much fun, it bores me... but I *can* access my scanner, my sound card and my SparQ drive under Win95 (and have some cool utilities, including a RAM drive that grows and shrinks dynamically depending on how occupied it is), whereas I can't under BSD. Such is life... I've never run into perfection as far as OS's go, and you DO have to admit that BSD is pretty lacking in hardware driver support, especially for the newer stuff. They say that you should choose your hardware based on which OS you run, and next time around I may do that; but this time I'm not going to junk or sell $500-$600 worth of equipment just so I can switch to BSD exclusively. Besides, a dual boot system isn't a bad notion at all. Pick a preferred OS, use that mostly, and when you need to do something that you can't with it, use another one. Takes more hard drive space, but that comes cheap these days. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 19:13:50 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 19:28:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25232 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25225 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup505.serv.net [207.207.70.70]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04244; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: Marcel Mason {Personal} , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, arthur Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ... Unfortunately, there's very little that I would consider outrageously priced in the computer hardware area anymore (cars, well... different story). I WOULD like to see the price of digital cameras come down, the price of monitors fall faster than it is (it's dropping, but gradually), and flat-screen LED monitors become the norm (which I can almost guarantee they will be in 10-15 years, probably less). On 26-Jun-98 The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > >: Ditto, especially with RAM and hard drive prices. Remember when a 4 meg >: stick of RAM cost $120 or so? What you probably don't remember was that >: was in 1995, just 3 years ago!! I remember starting a thread in a >: Usenet newsgroup titled "RAM prices outrageous!" - ironically, about 3 >: days after posting that message, RAM prices began their precipitous >: fall. > > Oh, really? Why don't you start a new thread about Voodoo 2 prices or 400 > MHz Pentium II prices or something? For that matter, I really like those > new Lexuses... :-) > > K.S. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 19:25:27 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 19:30:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25634 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:30:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25597 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:30:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA26521 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:30:11 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:30:11 +1000 (EST) From: Sue Blake Message-Id: <199806270230.MAA26521@phoenix.welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (Last updated 6 June 1998) This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook344.html) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. Manuals You'll always be expected show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj.html Other resources [Updated! New links to info on ppp and the X Window System] A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "subscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org appears on the mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 19:53:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28809 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28804 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:53:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup413.serv.net [207.207.70.14]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05579; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: arthur Subject: Re: Help - FreeBSD Addiction!!! Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why not start a small business putting together systems or administering BSD for people? Then you'll have a good excuse (and the money) to continue :-) On 26-Jun-98 arthur wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > >> >> After being awake for almost 36 hrs. straight, most of that spent >> configuring >> BSD and Fvwm2, I got 6 hours sleep and am at it again! Is there such a >> thing >> as BSD addiction, and is there a support group for it? This is worse than >> crack cocaine! ;-) >> > > ... I hope there isn't a support group for it, my girlfriend will make me > join, and I rather like this addiction. My only problem is that I'm > running out of hardware and space to put more systems together, maybe I'm > obsessed with it, either way, it's a great trip. > > ltr ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 19:09:18 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 20:13:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01537 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01529 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:13:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup736.serv.net [207.207.65.100]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06570; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980626135231.007b6100@mail.axess.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: "Peter D. Pawelek" Subject: RE: Reference: Unix in 20-30 years Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 Peter D. Pawelek wrote: > Ahh...at this rate he'll be using Vi within a week (and loving it).... ;) Heh... don't count on it... especially now that I have access to so many X text editors that are very close to MS Windows editors in ease of use. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 20:11:30 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 20:13:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01541 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01534 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup736.serv.net [207.207.65.100]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06575; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <35940285.4C7C@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: ML Duke Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: Rick Hamell , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, simon mendoza Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 ML Duke wrote: > It was "1984" and it was "George" Orwell, but those are unimportant > errors. The serious error is to think our current society is not > related to Orwell's "fictional" one. But Orwell's "double speak" has > been renamed: Its called "political correctness." > > We are living in it. _Now_. *No way*... and to believe so is paranoia, plain and simple. Our current society is *NOWHERE NEAR* what was portrayed in the book, not by a thousand miles. Do you have a mandatory camera in every room in your house (restrooms included) tied to the U.S. government and your local police departments? Are you forced to watch certain TV programs at certain times to receive government dictation on what to do tomorrow when you wake up? Do you have your lifelong career assigned to you from birth by a government worker? Are there certain times of day you can leave your house, and certain times you have to stay inside? Are there heavy restrictions on where you can drive to, and when? This was the kind of world portrayed in the book '1984.' Our society is FAR from utopian, but comparing it to the world of '1984' is downright paranoia. If I remember correctly, thoughts were directly censored in that world as well - thinking certain thoughts was against the law, and medications were used to prevent such thoughts. The fact that you posted that message stating you feel we're living in that kind of world, and weren't immediately arrested and "re-educated" for sending it, shows that your statement was false. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 26-Jun-98 Time: 19:59:11 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 26 23:34:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22021 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22016 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:34:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA27360; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:33:41 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980627163337.34092@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:33:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: fewtch@serv.net Cc: ML Duke , Rick Hamell , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, simon mendoza Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" References: <35940285.4C7C@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Gerchmez on Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:26:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:26:38PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > > On 26-Jun-98 ML Duke wrote: > >> > 1) have you all read Victor Orwell's "1994"? > > > > Its neccessary to interject on this one. From what I've seen, 90% of > > the people on this list know more BSD than I do, but awareness is sure > > lacking elsewhere which I guess is normal. > > > > It was "1984" and it was "George" Orwell, but those are unimportant > > errors. The serious error is to think our current society is not > > related to Orwell's "fictional" one. But Orwell's "double speak" has > > been renamed: Its called "political correctness." > > > > > This stuff is interesting and controversial, but completely off-topic in > freebsd-newbies. rofl -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 05:36:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08132 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 05:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA08127 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 05:36:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup406.serv.net [207.207.70.7]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA29204; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 05:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980627163337.34092@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 05:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Sue Blake Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Cc: simon mendoza , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Rick Hamell , ML Duke Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now, that wouldn't be ME you're laughing at, would it Sue? If it is, as long as you're rolling on the floor laughing, why don't you stay down on the floor where you belong. BTW, you included me in your recipient list, after I specifically asked you not to. Please don't do it again. If you do, I'll complain to your ISP about it. On 27-Jun-98 Sue Blake wrote: > On Fri, Jun 26, 1998 at 01:26:38PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> This stuff is interesting and controversial, but completely off-topic in >> freebsd-newbies. > > rofl > > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 27-Jun-98 Time: 05:32:25 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 06:53:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14440 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 06:53:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA14435 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 06:53:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup542.serv.net [207.207.70.107]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01661 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 06:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 06:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD - I'm in love! Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, so perhaps the title of this Email is a little "nerdish." But I've gotten to the point where I have fallen in love with this OS. I've never seen anything like this kind of power and configurability before, and so much quality software that's absolutely FREE. They say the best things in life are free, and I'm beginning to believe it. It's so seductive, I'm literally using Win95 or NT very little anymore. Therefore, it's time for some changes, so I'm going to be incommunicado for awhile: (1) I'm dedicating an entire 2.1 gig HD to FreeBSD (up from 1.3 gigs). This will require reinstalls of all three of my OS's, so I won't be around here for awhile. This will be an all-day project, at least, if not a 2-day project. (2) I'm going to replace some of my hardware on a gradual basis with hardware that is compatible with BSD, or encourage the manufacturers of the hardware to support BSD. The thing I miss the most is my sound card (I enjoy MIDI and Mpeg3 files); I can access my SparQ drive, scanner, and the fancier aspects of my printer from Win95 (although Shuttle Technologies makes the drivers for the Syquest SparQ, and I'm going to write to them and see if they have any hints/clues as to how I could access it from FreeBSD). So anyway... that's the story. I'll continue to have a multi-boot system, since there are some things I just can't do and software that's unavailable for BSD as of yet (for example, listening to MP3 music files, and software like Adobe Photoshop, MS Word, etc)... but I want to spend as much time as possible in BSD and dog these other OS's unless I require them. This OS is so much better than the Windows breed that it almost makes me want to sell off ALL my non-compatible hardware immediately and make an immediate, permanent switch. However, at this point that would be rash, and I have 4 gigs of HD space available, so multi-boot I remain (I'm sure most of you would agree that's wise at this point, and 2 gigs is plenty of space for FreeBSD and associated software). Goodbye until tomorrow, or 12-14 hrs. from now at least, while I make some major changes. Tim ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 27-Jun-98 Time: 06:39:26 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 07:06:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15533 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 07:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA15525 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 07:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA28149; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:06:12 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980628000606.25077@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:06:06 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: fewtch@serv.net Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" References: <19980627163337.34092@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Gerchmez on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 05:35:45AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 05:35:45AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Now, that wouldn't be ME you're laughing at, would it Sue? If it is, as long as > you're rolling on the floor laughing, why don't you stay down on the floor > where you belong. > > BTW, you included me in your recipient list, after I specifically asked > you not to. It is normal practice for originators to remain in the recipient list for mail to FreeBSD lists. If you can't bear to risk this happening, don't post. Normally I would only send a reply like this to you in private, but that doesn't seem to make much difference with you lately. I have remained quiet because I could not agree with much that you have been saying, and I really don't mind what anyone thinks of me. But I will not sit by quietly while you pick on someone else because he dared to correct a simple error that you had made. You charged him with the same false sin that you had been indulging in yourself, attempted to stifle his conversation with you, and then went straight on to prattle more about matters that don't relate to FreeBSD. In fact, nothing that either of you said was "completely off topic". Well, not while its aim was to build friendship among newbies at least. If you can't accept that you make errors occasionally I wonder what makes you think you fit in as a newbie. We all make errors, and everyone else accepts a little correction without making a world war out of it. Part of the list's charter is to be free to be seen to make errors in an environment where imperfection is not a crime. You are coming very close to making this a place where nobody dares question anything you say for fear of retalliation. As soon as fear and animosity take hold, there is no reason for this list to exist any longer. Jump on the pedestal too hard, Tim, and you'll break it. Personally I wish no-one's approval, and I fear no-one. But I care about everyone, even you. You have a lot of friends here and you seem to be doing your best to turn them all, one by one, into enemies. I don't understand why you want to be so persistently vindictive, and it is a great shame if you cannot benefit from the friendship that is offered to you. You have made some fine contributions when everyone else shuts up and agrees with you. This is supposed to be a comfortable place for newbies to chat, where everyone gets a go. If you want to play bully, go mess with the big boys. If I have made you feel small in the past, for that I am sorry, it was not my intention. We all feel small a lot of the time when we're learning to receive correction. It seems, though, that nothing will stop you from feeling so slighted that you must lash out at anyone who could notice a transitory imperfection in you. I find this approach selfish and destructive, and I wish you would reconsider your attitude. Believe it or not, all newbies feel as uncomfortable and as unappreciated as you do sometimes. We're not perfect, and none of us expect you to be perfect either. To achieve what we want to achieve we need to cooperate, not battle for supremacy. That goes for the entire FreeBSD community. I do expect you to be able to accept that and deal with it, or solve your personal problems in private. > Please don't do it again. If you do, I'll complain to your ISP about it. You want them to close down my email account? I see. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 08:11:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20526 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 08:11:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pteradactyl (pteradactyl.vaniercollege.qc.ca [205.236.144.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA20521 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 08:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from labrinop@pop.vaniercollege.qc.ca) From: labrinop@pop.vaniercollege.qc.ca Received: from labrinop.vaniercollege.qc.ca by pteradactyl (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA08869; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:15:03 -0400 Message-Id: <199806271515.LAA08869@pteradactyl> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:13:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Re: References: Unix in 20-30 years Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 Tim Gerchmez wrote: > No, the fact is that I personally am unconcerned with Y2K issues as > of yet. I'm not a business, I'm a home user, and I don't even run > any software I know of that would be affected (and I don't program > in C at the current time, either). The worst that's gonna happen is > that my Email will be dated 1900. Big deal, so anyone with > cerebrospinal fluid where their brain is supposed to be might think > it's 1900. Maybe they'll go looking for Thomas Edison for light > bulbs instead of going to the supermarket. I used to do the weekly tape backup on a VAX-11/750, and remembered once that one of the directory entries got corrupted, and on a directory listing it showed the a file creatation date of 1856, that was one old file. Hmmm, wonder if VAXs are Y2K compliant. I also have a friend who wanted to test the Y2K bug on his machine, so he set the year to 1999 and forgot to restore it. All his email was dated 1999. PeterL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 08:11:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20568 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 08:11:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pteradactyl (pteradactyl.vaniercollege.qc.ca [205.236.144.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA20543 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 08:11:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from labrinop@pop.vaniercollege.qc.ca) From: labrinop@pop.vaniercollege.qc.ca Received: from labrinop.vaniercollege.qc.ca by pteradactyl (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA08865; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:15:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199806271515.LAA08865@pteradactyl> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:13:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jun-98 Marcel Mason wrote: > FreeBSD will run on a 486 @ 33 with 8 Meg of RAM *way > better* than the same machine could run Win9x. The two sayings i most remember about Microsoft software are: 1) Windows is the only program that can make a 486 seem slow! 2) Office 97 is the first application that brings a Pentium to its knees! I remember using Microsoft products (MBASIC and M80) on a CP/M-80 machine (Microsoft was still working out of someones garage back then, it think), Anyway, i gave up on Microsoft in 1992, i had just purchased MASM (v5.0 i believe), and immediately started to play with it, to try out the new features. I did a debug of a binary and found it was generating the wrong opcodes, i pulled out the Intel 486 reference manual to double-check the opcode, and it was generating the wrong opcodes! I called Microsoft tech-support to see it there was a patch or something available, and they tried to convince me it wasn't a bug! Also, when i was looking for a C/C++ compiler (this was all before i had heard of FreeBSD), i tried 'Microsoft v7 with SDK' and 'Borland 3.1', (both new at the time). Guess which one i purchased, and i have never looked back since. The first UN*X i used was SCO, learned a lot on it (and still think sysadmsh is a great interface). Then around 1996 a friend bought FreeBSD 2.1.0 to install on his machine, but he didn't want to repartition his hdisk and gave the CDs to me. I installed it, fell in love with it (source code and all), and i still have 2.2.6 at home, and 2.2.5 on my machine at work I have a second machine at home which i wanted to install FreeBSD on, to play with networking (they both have NICs), but no CD drive. All I had to do was mount the CD under the ftp directory, and with bootdisk in hand, was able to install over anonymous ftp. Coolest thing i ever saw, let Windows95 beat that! To anti-quote Charles Dickens: Microsoft Windows, there is more grave then gravy in it. PeterL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 12:14:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15994 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:14:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15983 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup500.serv.net [207.207.70.65]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16366 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980628000606.25077@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How important is "the OS?") Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org No, I don't want to receive Emails from you addressed directly to me (for my own personal reasons, which I don't care to get into on this list). Answering threads posted to the list by me, or even addressing me personally in public on the list is fine, but I DON'T want to receive an Email from you addressed to me that arrives in my "inbox" rather than my "BSD-Newbies-List" mailbox. In other words, if you have something to say to me, say it on the list. Haven't I made myself clear on this point? I've asked you not to do it, but you continue, so that's why I threatened to contact your ISP about it. Please don't send me personal Emails. This is the *last* time I will ask nicely. After that, I'm liable to get nasty about it. On 27-Jun-98 Sue Blake wrote: >> Please don't do it again. If you do, I'll complain to your ISP about it. > > You want them to close down my email account? I see. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 27-Jun-98 Time: 12:00:45 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 12:36:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18218 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18213 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup500.serv.net [207.207.70.65]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA17338 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re-install done! I'm getting really quick at this... Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, thanks to excellent backups (including my entire root directory, subdirectories and all, my ppp directory, my custom kernel config file and certain files in /etc) and fast hardware, my re-install of FreeBSD is pretty much complete! I may still be lacking a few packages I had before, but that's an easy fix. I now have over 2 gigs of HD space dedicated to FreeBSD (2055 megs, to be exact), in the following organization: Disk: wd2 Partition name: wd2s1 Free: 0 blocks (0MB) Part Mount Size Newfs Part Mount Size Newfs ---- ----- ---- ----- ---- ----- ---- ----- wd2s1a / 40MB UFS N wd2s1e /var 40MB UFS N wd2s1f /root 80MB UFS N wd2s1g /usr 1771MB UFS N wd2s1b swap 128MB SWAP Not bad, eh? Since so many programs (such as Netscape and XFMail) store their config files and caches in my home directory (I usually log on as root, even though it's supposed to be a no-no - I'm just extra careful), I dedicated an 80 meg slice to my home directory (/root). Swap is now about where it should be (the 2x main memory "rule of thumb" I've knocked in the past, but others have helped me see the light :-), and with a full system (including some large packages) installed, this is what df tells me: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/wd2s1a 39719 13550 22992 37% / /dev/wd2s1f 79455 593 72506 1% /root /dev/wd2s1g 1759018 251620 1366677 16% /usr /dev/wd2s1e 39719 1308 35234 4% /var procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc Gonna take a while to fill up that /usr partition! I love it. BSD is my OS of choice now, except when I need access to hardware it doesn't support. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 27-Jun-98 Time: 12:16:57 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 14:08:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00248 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:08:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00188 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from localhost (stuart@localhost) by junior.apk.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA01139; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:07:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How important is "the OS?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Haven't I made myself clear on this point? I've asked you not to do it, > but you continue, so that's why I threatened to contact your ISP about > it. Please don't send me personal Emails. This is the *last* time I > will ask nicely. After that, I'm liable to get nasty about it. Tim, I think you need some help. Sue Blake is perhaps one of the nicest people I've ever met on the net. And you're getting on her case. That really suggests to me that you have personal problems. And they do wonders today with therapy and drugs. You should look into it. -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 14:35:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04322 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:35:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papaya.mail.easynet.net (papaya.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA04316 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@boothman.easynet.co.uk) Received: (qmail 3497 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1998 21:35:28 -0000 Received: from boothman.easynet.co.uk (194.154.100.117) by papaya.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 27 Jun 1998 21:35:28 -0000 Received: by Boothman.easynet.co.uk (VPOP3 - Unregistered) with SMTP; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:33:55 +0100 Message-ID: <35956543.60D2BDCB@boothman.easynet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:33:55 +0100 From: Andrew Boothman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How important is "the OS?") References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: VPOP3 V1.2.0d Unregistered Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > No, I don't want to receive Emails from you addressed directly to me (for my > own personal reasons, which I don't care to get into on this list). Answering > threads posted to the list by me, or even addressing me personally in public on > the list is fine, but I DON'T want to receive an Email from you > addressed to me that arrives in my "inbox" rather than my "BSD-Newbies-List" > mailbox. In other words, if you have something to say to me, say it on the > list. > > Haven't I made myself clear on this point? I've asked you not to do it, but you > continue, so that's why I threatened to contact your ISP about it. Please > don't send me personal Emails. This is the *last* time I will ask nicely. > After that, I'm liable to get nasty about it. > Okay, okay. Lets calm down. No one wants to make enemies on this list, and that's exactly what you two will do of each other if you don't stop this now. Tim, please except that sending replies to the original poster is standard practice on freebsd-* lists for reasons that we all know. It is very difficult to see why an exception should be made for you. I use Netscape Communicator and I have a filter set up so that any e-mail that has newbies@freebsd.org in the to or cc headers gets moved to a separate mailbox. Surely your mail software is flexible enough to allow you to set it up similarly. Also, I do not believe that threatening Sue with going to her ISP will help you get anywhere. You are asking people to do you a favour, and threading people will hardly make them feel happier to help you. Sue, Tim asked not to be put in recipient lists and you should have explained that this is not the standard behaviour in freebsd-* mailing lists, instead of flatly ignoring his request. There has been wrongdoing on both sides of this argument. And I think we're all big enough to step back, admit our mistakes, and move on. There is no place in any freebsd mailing list for this sort of flaming. -- Andrew Boothman http://www.boothman.easynet.co.uk/andrew/ PGP Key available from public servers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 15:27:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11783 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:27:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (0@login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11778 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:27:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) Received: from arwen.myst.no (pc9.bergen-pm2-1.eunet.no [193.75.12.9]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id AAA27001; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:27:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (hjv@localhost) by arwen.myst.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA00254; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:45:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) X-Authentication-Warning: arwen.myst.no: hjv owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:45:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Vaagstoel X-Sender: hjv@arwen.myst.no To: Malartre cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HTML Editors In-Reply-To: <3593C09B.D33DF952@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Malartre wrote: > I dont love WYSIWYG. They always put a lot of unusefull tag. Also: > Netscape Composer (netscape's HTML editor) is optimised for Netscape > tag. Also, you dont learn anything with WYSIWYG. Buy a book for 10$ or > check on the net, but learn how to ;-) > Malartre I completely agree with you. However, if people *like* to use a WYSIWYG editor, I don't really care. Personally, I am happy with emacs. The tag highlighting is great, and the auto-view feature makes it just about as WYSIWYG as any other... -- Haavard Vaagstoel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 15:50:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14157 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14149 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@dialA2a.aei.ca [206.123.6.62]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18696; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 18:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3595765D.1CBED06A@aei.ca> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 18:46:53 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fewtch@serv.net CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How important is "the OS?") References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > No, I don't want to receive Emails from you addressed directly to me (for my > own personal reasons, which I don't care to get into on this list). Answering > threads posted to the list by me, or even addressing me personally in public on > the list is fine, but I DON'T want to receive an Email from you > addressed to me that arrives in my "inbox" rather than my "BSD-Newbies-List" > mailbox. In other words, if you have something to say to me, say it on the > list. > > Haven't I made myself clear on this point? I've asked you not to do it, but you > continue, so that's why I threatened to contact your ISP about it. Please > don't send me personal Emails. This is the *last* time I will ask nicely. > After that, I'm liable to get nasty about it. > > On 27-Jun-98 Sue Blake wrote: > > >> Please don't do it again. If you do, I'll complain to your ISP about it. > > > > You want them to close down my email account? I see. Sue Blake receive probably a lot of mail. If she want to reply to one of them, she have no time to check if "Tim" is on the list of people who do not want to be sent a cc of the msg. All people reply like that. Not her falt if you don't know how it work... Read that carefully: http://www.lemis.com/questions.html#answer "6. ...Unless there's a good reason to do otherwise, just reply to the person and copy FreeBSD-questions." Read has "copy freebsd-newbie". It's the same thing. So, maybe you should moderate you. -- [Malartre] [malartre@aei.ca][ICQ#4224434][www.aei.ca/~malartre/][www.FreeBSD.ORG] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 16:10:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15604 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:10:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1c.yahoomail.com (send1c.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA15599 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:10:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon_v_mendoza@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980627231242.3481.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> Received: from [200.44.4.145] by send1c; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:12:42 PDT Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:12:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Simon Mendoza Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" To: fewtch@serv.net Cc: Marcel Mason {Personal} , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > > On 26-Jun-98 arthur wrote: > > > Yes it is scary, and Tim, I feel you could have safely gotten away > > without using "ficticious" in your above statement, but I'm sure you > > were just playing it safe. > > Not really. There really is no such thing as an "average" anything. "The > average computer user" is a stereotype, plain and simple, and human beings are > too complex to fit perfectly into stereotypes (at least 99.9% are). You contradict yourself here Tim, that is why "standards" are so hard to convey, in fact take a look a Latin, is dead because it regulated itself to exhaustion. Even you didn't stated that MS was a monopoly and also is true that the computer world is not the only world we live in, it is certainly gaining control over our human lives, you obtain goods out of numbers of credits in a plastic card, stored in a computer somwhere, you know whether is right or wrong to go outside your house by means of information obtained through numbers from a computer, you get your income out of information in a computer and this gives you an idea of how we are surrounded by this computer world. This is possible thanks to standards, there's no question about it but to think of it its also a way for humans to copy the power of nature. When someone goes to by a computer, we can not speculate their motives for doing so. But one thing we can say is that MS has a lot of investments due to its success and it is reinvesting its gaining not just to capitalize itself, but to produce more software to earn even more money. Have you seen the word "quality" around?, that is a concern, if we are to state that all users want MS in their computer boxes. > Just to point out, opinions are never wrong or right, simply opinions. > Everyone has them, and everyone has a right to them, even if they disagree with > 99% of everyone else's opinion. Defend your opinions to the death - it's your > &deity-given right to have them! > Here I agree 100% _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 16:17:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16034 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:17:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (0@login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16026 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:17:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) Received: from arwen.myst.no (pc3.bergen-pm2-1.eunet.no [193.75.12.3]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id BAA28939; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:17:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (hjv@localhost) by arwen.myst.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA00368; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:37:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from havardjv@gudmund.vgs.no) X-Authentication-Warning: arwen.myst.no: hjv owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:37:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Haavard Vaagstoel X-Sender: hjv@arwen.myst.no To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The average Unix user In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > I agree with your point. In fact, I'd take it further to state that "the > average" Unix user is probably more intelligent than "the average" Win95 user, > simply because they have to be to figure out how to install, configure and > administer their system. The learning curve in the beginning with some > flavors Though it may seem like that from a home-user point of view, I sincerely doubt it that the average Unix user has installed, configured and is currently administering her/his own system... -- Haavard Vaagstoel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 17:21:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22152 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:21:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22143 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29401; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:21:11 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980628102101.20757@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:21:01 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Haavard Vaagstoel Cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The average Unix user References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Haavard Vaagstoel on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:37:19AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 12:37:19AM +0200, Haavard Vaagstoel wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > > I agree with your point. In fact, I'd take it further to state that "the > > average" Unix user is probably more intelligent than "the average" Win95 user, > > simply because they have to be to figure out how to install, configure and > > administer their system. The learning curve in the beginning with some > > flavors > > Though it may seem like that from a home-user point of view, I sincerely > doubt it that the average Unix user has installed, configured and is > currently administering her/his own system... Indeed. And all unix users start off as newbies. Many FreeBSD newbies use FreeBSD at work, not necessarily at home. They did not install FreeBSD and may have any level of access. In many cases FreeBSD has been chosen because of its reliability to perform some critical task, and several people need to have access to the machine (and learn to use it) in case of emergency. They are FreeBSD newbies too. They might know unix but not freebsd, or they might know nothing. If you're wondering why these people are allowed to use such a machine, consider that anyone in the same room as a machine has ultimate physical control. Some businesses decide that it is better to say "learn to be responsible with it" than "don't touch while I'm looking". Also consider that some owners with more money than skill feel that their financial investment and ownership earns them the right to the root password to a system which they have never set up or understood. I could tell you the story of one FreeBSD newbie whose FreeBSD machine, if misconfigured, could have set off a chain of events endangering thousands of people's lives. But if I did you wouldn't sleep at night. On the other hand we have a lot of recent newbies who use FreeBSD as a home workstation. Some come from Microsoft, some from Linux, and they tend to bring their social and technical experiences with them, expecting to find the same here. Sometimes they are shocked to find out, for example, that FreeBSD users are generally older and more serious than they have encountered elsewhere, that it is suddenly necessary to read documentation, that the root user can be more destructive than under another OS, that we succeed by cooperation rather than by bargaining for services, or that FreeBSD being a complete system cannot mix and max kernels. Each assumption is logical to those who hold it but surprising to those who don't. The new home user/learner newbies have many different perspectives which are no less valid than those of the beginning reluctant administrator or the serious workplace newbie. Each can be quite surprised to learn of the existence of the other, and each can learn a lot from the other. But we are *all* newbies. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 19:18:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09058 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cc.dixie.edu (cc.dixie.edu [144.38.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA08965 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:18:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kerby@bengali.npl.com) Received: from [38.241.82.72] by cc.dixie.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/18Jan96-0134PM) id AA08774; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:21:40 -0600 Message-Id: <003001bda23b$3f3eeaa0$4852f126@kellogg> Reply-To: "Kerby Smith" From: "Kerby Smith" To: Cc: , Subject: purpose of the list Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:19:47 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org sue, i just wanted to thank you and the rest of the people on this list for all the help youve given me so far by just reading! its really interesting and a neat way to learn about FreeBSD since im so new to it. tim, my gosh, *i* wasnt gonna say anything about this since im new to this list, but all u ever do is constantly pick on sue and try to start fights with her, its so annoying and i dont know why u do it. i dont even read alot of the posts cause theres so many and i dont have time, but almost everyone that i do read its you attacking sue about something. do u feel threatened by her or something? are u afraid shes smarter then you? it appears you have no life since you reply to every post, but stop being a dork and start using this list for the reason that it exists, to help people. kerby smith ps, please dont contact my isp since i emailed a copy of this to YOU! *grin* and sue, youre doing a great job, keep up the good work :) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Kerby Smith kerby@bengali.npl.com I am Guilty of Murder... Blame me for the death of Jesus Christ, because it was for my sins that he was tortured and crucified! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Sue Blake To: fewtch@serv.net Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 9:26 AM Subject: Re: How important is "the OS?" >On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 05:35:45AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> >> Now, that wouldn't be ME you're laughing at, would it Sue? If it is, as long as >> you're rolling on the floor laughing, why don't you stay down on the floor >> where you belong. >> >> BTW, you included me in your recipient list, after I specifically asked >> you not to. > >It is normal practice for originators to remain in the recipient list for >mail to FreeBSD lists. If you can't bear to risk this happening, don't >post. Normally I would only send a reply like this to you in private, but >that doesn't seem to make much difference with you lately. > >I have remained quiet because I could not agree with much that you have >been saying, and I really don't mind what anyone thinks of me. But I will >not sit by quietly while you pick on someone else because he dared to >correct a simple error that you had made. You charged him with the same >false sin that you had been indulging in yourself, attempted to stifle >his conversation with you, and then went straight on to prattle more >about matters that don't relate to FreeBSD. In fact, nothing that either >of you said was "completely off topic". Well, not while its aim was to >build friendship among newbies at least. > >If you can't accept that you make errors occasionally I wonder what makes >you think you fit in as a newbie. We all make errors, and everyone else >accepts a little correction without making a world war out of it. Part of >the list's charter is to be free to be seen to make errors in an >environment where imperfection is not a crime. You are coming very close >to making this a place where nobody dares question anything you say for >fear of retalliation. As soon as fear and animosity take hold, there is >no reason for this list to exist any longer. Jump on the pedestal too >hard, Tim, and you'll break it. > >Personally I wish no-one's approval, and I fear no-one. But I care about >everyone, even you. You have a lot of friends here and you seem to be >doing your best to turn them all, one by one, into enemies. I don't >understand why you want to be so persistently vindictive, and it is >a great shame if you cannot benefit from the friendship that is offered >to you. You have made some fine contributions when everyone else shuts up >and agrees with you. This is supposed to be a comfortable place for >newbies to chat, where everyone gets a go. If you want to play bully, go >mess with the big boys. > >If I have made you feel small in the past, for that I am sorry, it was >not my intention. We all feel small a lot of the time when we're learning >to receive correction. It seems, though, that nothing will stop you from >feeling so slighted that you must lash out at anyone who could notice a >transitory imperfection in you. I find this approach selfish and >destructive, and I wish you would reconsider your attitude. > >Believe it or not, all newbies feel as uncomfortable and as unappreciated >as you do sometimes. We're not perfect, and none of us expect you to be >perfect either. To achieve what we want to achieve we need to cooperate, >not battle for supremacy. That goes for the entire FreeBSD community. I >do expect you to be able to accept that and deal with it, or solve your >personal problems in private. > > >> Please don't do it again. If you do, I'll complain to your ISP about it. > >You want them to close down my email account? I see. > > > >-- > >Regards, > -*Sue*- > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 20:26:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16163 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:26:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16158 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29822; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:25:56 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980628132552.26802@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:25:52 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Kerby Smith Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, fewtch@serv.net Subject: Re: purpose of the list References: <003001bda23b$3f3eeaa0$4852f126@kellogg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <003001bda23b$3f3eeaa0$4852f126@kellogg>; from Kerby Smith on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:19:47PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:19:47PM -0500, Kerby Smith wrote: > sue, i just wanted to thank you and the rest of the people on this list for > all the help youve given me so far by just reading! its really interesting > and a neat way to learn about FreeBSD since im so new to it. Thanks much for your note of support :-) Really, I don't feel that I have been victimised any more than anyone else. Everyone, please remember that we all cycle through periods of excitement and periods of intense frustration when learning about FreeBSD, and we deal with them in different ways. Newbies are in a period of rapid change. The person you talk to today could become a different person tomorrow. By all means, say what you think, but beware of the danger of adopting another's standards: they might raise theirs before you have a chance to raise your own. Kerby, since you're new (and while I've got your attention :-) you might not realise that our resources short-list at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html is revised frequently and open to comment from newbies. Another revision is due soon, and I'm a little concerned that it is becoming rather long. If you do use it any feedback or suggestions would be welcome. Also a couple of guys are working hard on a FreeBSD book that is on line at http://www.vmunix.com/fbsd-book/ (don't forget the backslash). It's not part of the FreeBSD Documentation Project, but they're doing the right thing and asking for feedback, and feedback from newbies is particularly helpful since they really want newbies to be able to understand what they write. Why not take a look and give them some honest, well considered comments. We might also get Chris to come in and talk to us about what they're doing and why. Anyone who is doing some work for FreeBSD users deserves a little acknowledgement occasionally, whether it's constructive criticism, a note mentioning the parts you like, or a simple note of thanks for a sustained effort. I bet there are hundreds of volunteers whose work you see and appreciate every day who sometimes sit around wondering whether anyone would care if they ever stopped. It's simple really. Most people do what makes them feel good, and most people feel good if they can make other people feel good. Show your thanks for what is done now and there will be much more done in the future. Almost everything you see to do with FreeBSD has some volunteer's email address on it, and no volunteer worker minds getting private mail. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 20:32:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16775 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.flinet.com (root@shell.flinet.com [205.216.85.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16770 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:32:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aaron@iconmedia.com) Received: from iconmedia.com (ftl-pm1-4.flinet.com [208.14.30.4]) by shell.flinet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA03171 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3595BA8A.E1AF3A94@iconmedia.com> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:37:46 -0400 From: Aaron Walker X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The average Unix user References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I consider myself an "average UNIX user" if there's such thing. I have been using Linux/FreeBSD for about a year and so I can pretty much figure things out on my own. I have installed, configured, and am administering my own UNIX machines (Linux & FreeBSD). Before a year ago, the only thing I new about UNIX was how to spell it =) Aaron Haavard Vaagstoel wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > > I agree with your point. In fact, I'd take it further to state that "the > > average" Unix user is probably more intelligent than "the average" Win95 user, > > simply because they have to be to figure out how to install, configure and > > administer their system. The learning curve in the beginning with some > > flavors > > Though it may seem like that from a home-user point of view, I sincerely > doubt it that the average Unix user has installed, configured and is > currently administering her/his own system... > > -- > Haavard Vaagstoel > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 21:39:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23966 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23961 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup730.serv.net [207.207.65.94]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11676; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3595765D.1CBED06A@aei.ca> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Malartre Subject: Re: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How import Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Jun-98 Malartre wrote: > Sue Blake receive probably a lot of mail. If she want to reply to one of > them, she have no time to check if "Tim" is on the list of people who do > not want to be sent a cc of the msg. I would very much appreciate it if she did. It's not that tough just to check who your messages are going to and click "delete" on one of the recipients. I always check myself, just to know who the message is going to. Not to do so is somewhat careless, IMO. You should always know where your Email is going before clicking "Send." > Read that carefully: http://www.lemis.com/questions.html#answer > "6. ...Unless there's a good reason to do otherwise, just reply to the > person and copy FreeBSD-questions." Consider this strong personal request a "good reason to do otherwise," and thus obeying the list charter. My mail reader in Windows (Eudora) allowed server-side filtering - I.E. if I didn't want to receive a message, the mail reader wouldn't download it at all, just instruct the server to delete the message. My BSD Email program doesn't do that, AFAIK (I'll have to check more carefully). I have a right to control what goes into my private mailbox, and to request that others don't send me mail, for whatever reason I please. I don't dislike Sue, am not trying to get on her case, I simply don't want any personal Email from her. If she wants to discuss something with me (or I with her) I want it to take place on the list only, so others can offer feedback. That's all I'm asking, and I'm not trying to start trouble. Think of it like this: There's a certain person you want to talk to only in a public place, not one to one in a room in your house. Certainly there are a few people in your life you could apply that to, for whatever reason. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 27-Jun-98 Time: 21:16:08 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 21:39:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24002 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23981 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup730.serv.net [207.207.65.94]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11682; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Stuart Krivis Subject: Re: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How import Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Whether she's a nice person or not isn't the issue. Due to a series of personal Emails I had with her earlier, I would simply prefer it that any communication we have happens on the list only, where others can contribute their opinions on what we discuss. I don't dislike Sue at all, and don't want to get on her case. I simply don't want to receive personal Emails from her, for my own reasons, having to do with her reaction to a couple of my personal Emails when I first signed up for the list. BTW, I'm already getting help for the problems I have. Everyone has problems of one sort or another, and many people are in therapy and/or on drugs for one thing or another (many are too ashamed to mention it... why, I have no idea). The fact that you may not be doesn't make you anything special. It just means you had a better upbringing than some, and don't have any biochemical brain imbalances that are inherited from your parents or simply occurred as a result of nature. On 27-Jun-98 Stuart Krivis wrote: > Tim, I think you need some help. Sue Blake is perhaps one of the nicest > people I've ever met on the net. And you're getting on her case. That > really suggests to me that you have personal problems. And they do wonders > today with therapy and drugs. You should look into it. > > -- > > Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 27-Jun-98 Time: 21:08:29 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 21:39:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24003 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23985 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup730.serv.net [207.207.65.94]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11669; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <35956543.60D2BDCB@boothman.easynet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Andrew Boothman Subject: Re: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How import Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Jun-98 Andrew Boothman wrote: > Tim, please except that sending replies to the original poster is > standard practice on freebsd-* lists for reasons that we all know. It does specifically state "unless there's a good reason to do so." I think a strong personal request is a good enough reason, in my book. > It is > very difficult to see why an exception should be made for you. It's a long story, and involves some private communication Sue and I had when I first joined the list. I can't and won't reveal any of this private communication, sorry. That does create the problem of others being unable to understand why I'm adament about this, but I don't see any way to solve that problem. > I use > Netscape Communicator and I have a filter set up so that any e-mail that > has newbies@freebsd.org in the to or cc headers gets moved to a separate > mailbox. Surely your mail software is flexible enough to allow you to > set it up similarly. It may or may not be, but I still would prefer that she not send me any personal mail. Sorry, but I'm going to be stubborn about this. It's my right to choose what I receive and what I don't, since I'm paying my ISP for the disk space to hold messages. If you were receiving Email from a spammer, don't you feel it's your right not to receive that Email? You're paying for your Email. Similar thing. > Also, I do not believe that threatening Sue with > going to her ISP will help you get anywhere. You are asking people to do > you a favour, and threading people will hardly make them feel happier to > help you. I wouldn't have, except that I had already made the request once and did receive private Email after this request. > There is no place in any freebsd mailing list for this sort of flaming. If you consider this flaming, you've obviously never done Usenet. This kind of "flaming" could be considered to be like lighting a small match. I've seen flaming with giant flamethrowers that attempt to reduce the person being flamed to ashes and dust. Obviously that's not what I'm doing. ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 27-Jun-98 Time: 21:30:13 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 21:39:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24030 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24001 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from serv.net (dialup730.serv.net [207.207.65.94]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11687; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: fewtch@serv.net From: Tim Gerchmez To: Haavard Vaagstoel Subject: RE: The average Unix user Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good point - I didn't think of the fact that the average Unix user is not a home user... On 27-Jun-98 Haavard Vaagstoel wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > >> I agree with your point. In fact, I'd take it further to state that "the >> average" Unix user is probably more intelligent than "the average" Win95 >> user, >> simply because they have to be to figure out how to install, configure and >> administer their system. The learning curve in the beginning with some >> flavors > > Though it may seem like that from a home-user point of view, I sincerely > doubt it that the average Unix user has installed, configured and is > currently administering her/his own system... > > -- > Haavard Vaagstoel ---------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Tim Gerchmez Date: 27-Jun-98 Time: 21:03:49 This message was sent by XFMail under Fvwm2 and FREEBSD. My personal website is at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html Take a look if you have the time - something for everyone there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 23:34:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07247 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:34:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07240 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:34:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00333; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:34:00 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980628163353.43436@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:33:54 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: fewtch@serv.net Cc: Malartre , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How import References: <3595765D.1CBED06A@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Gerchmez on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:39:37PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 09:39:37PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > My mail reader in Windows (Eudora) allowed server-side filtering - I.E. if I > didn't want to receive a message, the mail reader wouldn't download it at all, > just instruct the server to delete the message. My BSD Email program doesn't do > that, AFAIK (I'll have to check more carefully). I'm sorry, I won't change my habits daily on the basis of the quirks of whatever software you happen to be running. Perhaps you should look around. I noticed that your style of quoting has deteriorated recently. At first I thought you were being humorous but it seems to be associated with the use of your new mailer. You might want to take a look at mutt. For filtering, try procmail. They're both in the ports. > I have a right to control what goes into my private mailbox, and to > request that others don't send me mail, for whatever reason I please. Certainly you do! You have permission to unsubscribe from -newbies or any other list any time you wish if you'd really prefer to to receive the type of mail the list provides. Let me know if you need any help with this or anything else. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 23:37:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07762 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:37:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07737 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:37:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrI-10.aei.ca [206.186.205.160]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA18956; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3595E3CD.E860837F@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:33:50 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fewtch@serv.net CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How import References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > On 27-Jun-98 Malartre wrote: > > > Sue Blake receive probably a lot of mail. If she want to reply to one of > > them, she have no time to check if "Tim" is on the list of people who do > > not want to be sent a cc of the msg. > > I would very much appreciate it if she did. It's not that tough just to check > who your messages are going to and click "delete" on one of the recipients. I > always check myself, just to know who the message is going to. Not to do so is > somewhat careless, IMO. You should always know where your Email is going > before clicking "Send." > > > Read that carefully: http://www.lemis.com/questions.html#answer > > "6. ...Unless there's a good reason to do otherwise, just reply to the > > person and copy FreeBSD-questions." > > Consider this strong personal request a "good reason to do otherwise," and thus > obeying the list charter. > > My mail reader in Windows (Eudora) allowed server-side filtering - I.E. if I > didn't want to receive a message, the mail reader wouldn't download it at all, > just instruct the server to delete the message. My BSD Email program doesn't do > that, AFAIK (I'll have to check more carefully). > > I have a right to control what goes into my private mailbox, and to request that > others don't send me mail, for whatever reason I please. I don't dislike Sue, > am not trying to get on her case, I simply don't want any personal Email > from her. If she wants to discuss something with me (or I with her) I want it > to take place on the list only, so others can offer feedback. That's all I'm > asking, and I'm not trying to start trouble. > > Think of it like this: There's a certain person you want to talk to only in a > public place, not one to one in a room in your house. Certainly there are a few > people in your life you could apply that to, for whatever reason. This is not a good reason. Anyway, don't talk about that on the list. You should be abble to do what you want without mailing us a subject who have no place on newbies@freebsd.org. If she want to mail you, she do it. That's all. Ignore her if you want. -- [Malartre] [malartre@aei.ca][ICQ#4224434][www.aei.ca/~malartre/][www.FreeBSD.ORG] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 27 23:41:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08349 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cybcon.com (root@cybcon.com [205.147.64.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08344 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:41:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wwoods@cybcon.com) Received: from support1.cybcon.com (support1.cybcon.com [205.147.75.183]) by cybcon.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with ESMTP id XAA00595; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: wwoods@cybcon.com From: William Woods To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Asking Sue nicely, no personal Emails... (was Re: How import Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Stuart Krivis Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This may or may not be any of my business, but here it is, GROW UP. Use a damm filter to move what mail you dont want into the trash or whatever you want. And if your email program doesnt do filters, get one that does. I subscribe to this list for help....not for "Days of our lives" soap operas. ---------------------------------- E-Mail: William Woods Date: 27-Jun-98 Time: 23:38:07 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message