From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 12:52:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29210 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk (root@irwell.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.47.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29189 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:52:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drmarsh@bigfoot.com) Received: from trek.squelch.localnet (man-190.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.40.241]) by irwell.zetnet.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA06030; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:51:21 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:48:01 +0100 (BST) Organization: David_Marsh@HOME: see signature for information. From: David Marsh To: Sean Harding Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jul-98 Sean Harding wrote: >On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, David Marsh wrote: > >> FreeBSD-questions is a very busy list, and so far, I'm duly >> subscribed to it, but it is very timeconsuming to wade through. From >> my previous internet experience, I know that it's generally >> considered rude to fire questions at a list you don't subscribe to. > >I think that this is different in the case of -questions. It's just >like any other tech support list at a company (which the users wouldn't >be *able* to subscribe to). You send questions to the generic support >address, whoever knows the answer first replies to you and cc's the >list so that the others will know that the question has been answered. >That's how all of the support lists I am on work.... Ah, I see, now that you put it that way... Having previously come from an Amiga environment, the concept of Official End-user Support [TM] mailing lists has been a luxury I've never experienced.. All the Amiga lists and newsgroups, I suppose, *appeared* to be similar to -questions, in that there was that happy mixture of experienced users and 'official' developers mixing and matching in providing advice, *on a purely voluntary basis*, for the love of it, but always with the 'normal' usenet ideal that if you were *really* part of the user community, you'd be subscribed and keep an eye on the ongoing discussions anyway. Now, of course, the FreeBSD project is also voluntary, but now that you've made me think of -questions as a slick, 'corporate' and most importantly 'Genuinely Official' list, I can see the difference :-) If FreeBSD-questions is intended to be *THE* official support channel, as well as being a labour of love for all involved, then that gives me even greater respect for the experts and developers who take the time to answer users' questions, no matter how mundane they may seem.. It must sometimes be a 'tiresome' enough task for commercial companies to maintain official support lists (but at least they have been paid to provide that service), but when I remember that everybody here is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.. Thinking of -questions as a 'formal' developer -> user channel and 'support desk' might make me feel a little less guilty if I do decide that I don't unfortunately have the time to wade through all of the messages and can't remain subscribed at all times. And it does make me all the more grateful for the excellent advice that is given there, day in, day out, by the 'wise ones' ;-) The other great thing about an 'open' tech-support list is that anybody else who does have useful knowledge to impart can also join in to help ease the workload of giving advice and tips. I hope eventually that I'll be able to provide some useful advice in turn. Dave. --- David Marsh,drmarsh@bigfoot.comPLEX | http://squelch.home.ml.org/ | Glasgow/Glaschu, Scotland. *If urgent, phone: +44 141 400-0577*| > CYCLEWAY: cycle activism GB/IE: http://squelch.home.ml.org/cycleway/ < > includes bikes on public transport, & cycle organisation directories < To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 12:54:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29428 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:54:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk (root@irwell.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.47.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29419 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:54:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drmarsh@bigfoot.com) Received: from trek.squelch.localnet (man-190.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.40.241]) by irwell.zetnet.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA06174; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:52:43 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <001601bdb68f$083f8100$c825a3ce@davenport.bendnet.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:18:30 +0100 (BST) Organization: David_Marsh@HOME: see signature for information. From: David Marsh To: Samantha Stack Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jul-98 Samantha Stack wrote: > >Just wanted to say I think the EFnet channel #freebsd is a lot of help and >also a lot of fun :) > Thanks for the advice. I'm sure that irc must be quite a useful way of getting realtime support and help, but on my income, and with European phonecall charges, it's well out of the question for me, unfortunately. :-( Dave. --- David Marsh,drmarsh@bigfoot.comPLEX | http://squelch.home.ml.org/ | Glasgow/Glaschu, Scotland. *If urgent, phone: +44 141 400-0577*| > CYCLEWAY: cycle activism GB/IE: http://squelch.home.ml.org/cycleway/ < > includes bikes on public transport, & cycle organisation directories < To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 12:55:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29529 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:55:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk (root@irwell.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.47.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29503 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drmarsh@bigfoot.com) Received: from trek.squelch.localnet (man-190.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.40.241]) by irwell.zetnet.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA06276; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:53:37 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980724103351.13100@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:21:58 +0100 (BST) Organization: David_Marsh@HOME: see signature for information. From: David Marsh To: Sue Blake Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: >On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: > >> I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions >> to FreeBSD-questions. > >Many many reasons. Let's not start another enormous thread on this! > I think I understand the workings of -questions, and the relationship between it and -newbies a little better now since the recent replies I've received, so I'm following-up to the other points that have come up here, and then I'll leave it at that. >One day there might be a special place to ask newbie technical >questions. If that happens, it will not be this mailing list, it will >be another one. I think that would be a good idea. Does anybody agree or have the inclination to set up such a list? >> This list seems fairly quiet, almost empty compared to -questions, so >> I'm simply wondering why the 'simpler' questions couldn't be dealt >> with here, on -newbies, which would hopefully allow the real experts on >> -questions to get on with more important topics, than having to recite >> FAQ references over again.. :-( > >If you don't like the way you are dealt with in freebsd-questions, then >we need to deal with that. You can discuss that here. I maybe worded that badly. I've got no problems with -questions, and I've been very grateful for the advice I've received there. It's just that it's a BIG list and I felt that some separation of more complex queries from newbie queries might have been useful. But now that I know that I don't _have_ to always stay subscribed to -questions.. >> Does this mean that questions along the lines of: >> >> Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' >> (and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? > >Yes! > >> Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? >> www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. >> >> .would be acceptable topics for discussion here? > >Yes! > You'll notice that Nik Clayton didn't feel that these were necessarily quite appropriate topics. Obviously everybody has differing opinions, and I'm not in a position to say which is "right", but perhaps my little examples there maybe illustrate that it's a little hard to understand just quite what can be asked here? >> > You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a >> > question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to >> >> Is this following example of 'meta-questioning' acceptable here? > >I'm not quite sure what you mean. I was sort of meaning: is it acceptable to ask 'questions about questions', ie, how would I find out how to do xxx? (like my two examples above), rather than: how do I DO xxx? which is obviously a -questions question. >> So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? >> Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing >> questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. This was my 'meta-question': ie asking questions about how to use the lists. >On *all* freebsd lists it is considered rude (by many) to neglect to cc >both the list and the person you're responding to. > >I subscribe to 50-60 mailing lists from a variety of sources. Each has >their own little conventions, and in this particular respect the >freebsd lists are different to most, yes. As I've mentioned in a different follow-up, this particular aspect has caught me a little by surprise. In fact, most 'subscription' lists make it clear that cc:'s aren't a good idea, for obvious reasons. In the case of FreeBSD, obviously the opposite occurs where questioners aren't necessarily list subscribers, and therefore personal cc:'s become necessary. I'd like to suggest that maybe the list advice from majordomo should make this point clearer, which is different from most other lists. Certainly I will bear this in mind for the future. >> And, to continue, the wise ones duly respond to such questions as >> the above with "Check the website" or "Check the mailing list archive".. >> Now, as you point out elsewhere, a large number of newbies (myself >> included) access the internet intermittently over non-fixed dialup >> links, usually paying for the holidays of telco executives quite >> handsomely in the process.. >> [Note for USAns: that means we have to pay for the phone calls ;-(] > >I know. I'm in Australia :-) I know, I was kidding ;-) The USAmericans don't know how lucky they are, I'm jealous! :-( >What we have to realise though, is that freebsd-questions is inhabited >by hundreds of the kind of people who get three-digit sums per hour, >and they are happy to spend time to help us there for free, for as long >as they enjoy doing so. They have to pay to get our questions too. >This doesn't make it OK for you and me, of course, but it can help >a bit to see it from their point of view. I certainly don't intend to denigrate the advice from the, as you point out, well paid and doubtlessly busy, experts, and there are some 'questions' which obviously do 'merit' the "Check the website.." answer(!). It's just that for home-users, prolonged periods of searching can end up very expensive. Perhaps we need more pointers to easily downloadable information [1], to save online time. I'm certainly going to check the 'newbies' page on the website to see what it says! [1] And if/when I feel I'm experienced enough, I'd like to contribute to the 'official' documentation project at some stage. >> While taking a brief check of the website for news or errata is >> probably OK, doing an online search of mail-archves soon mounts up the >> phone bill, which, IMO, means it would be better for people to be >> subscribed to a list and following the threads. > >Whatever suits you best. You'll end up needing to search the >archives at sime time. If you don't want to do either, on the web site >you'll find a list of people who offer help for a fee, or you can work >everything out yourself from the man pages and source code :-) So it's either filter through a huge mail download or spend online time searching: You pays your money, you takes your choice ;-) I wish we had cheaper phone calls, and then this wouldn't be such a difficulty! >> Which comes back to my point that with -questions being very very busy, >> and -newbies being very very quiet, I'd just like to politely suggest >> that maybe we should be able to ask at least some of the more >> 'low level' questions here? > >Sorry, that will not be possible. > My misunderstanding of the 'nature' of -questions, sorry. Just as long as the wise ones on -questions don't mind a small flood of 'newbie' (but hopefully not 'clueless') questions from me. I had just thought that a degree of separation between beginner, and more technical questions, might have been beneficial. >However, as I have said before, if you do wish to see a *separate* list >for support/technical/how-to questions specifically for newbies, all >you need to do is figure out how to make it work. That's the hard part. The word *separate* is duly noted! :-) >Who would be experienced enough to provide reliable answers, who would >check that their answers were correct, who would take their place if >they moved their free help out of -questions, and, the tricky one, why >on earth would they want to be bothered, what enticements do you have >to offer volunteers? If this does ever happen, it will need to be >very thoroughly planned beforehand. I understand what you mean, and at the end of the day, any such move would rely on the goodwill of the experts. But to give an example, I'd hope that in, say, 6 months, I'd have progressed enough to perhaps help out some of the then newbies, while most of the harder questions currently on -questions would still be about things I have no experience of. I think it might help the more knowledgeable users to focus on answering questions more related to their particular experience or level of knowledge, in separate lists. But I suppose I don't know whether the real experts prefer the challenge of tricky questions or the satisfaction of helping a newbie do something relatively simple, or perhaps a combination of both! >> But please let me know if this has been gone over before or if I'm >> treading on somebody's toes.. > >No toes, just... yaaaawwwwn... :-) Sorry! >> But I don't understand why "Where can I find documentation that I can >> read so that I can use xxxx?" should be a -questions question, although >> the more blunt "How do I use xxxx?" obviously would be..? > >One of the (many) purposes of this list is to provide help for people >with using the mailing lists. Email-related questions, and questions >about the best way to ask questions, are asked and answered here. >FreeBSD-newbies keeps those sorts of things out of -questions, where >it's OK to be ignorant. People here will gently help you get your email >in shape so that the people in -questions won't rag you about it :-) >And if there's documentation, most of us would much rather use that >than go ask a question. By pointing each other to documentation we save >each other discomfort and help each other to be not so dependent on >-questions. Just as long as it is appropriate to ask questions about how to get documentation here [1], I wasn't sure if it was? [1] Because that is half the battle! Once you have the *right* documentation, solving a particular problem isn't quite as bad! >> Isn't part of the newbie experience all about "Help! There's these big >> horrible man pages: they don't make sense" or worse "Help! There >> *isn't* a man page for this program" or "I've really really tried to >> read the whole 300K man page, and it still doesn't make sense"? > >In that case, if you're trying to set something up or solve a problem >it goes to -questions. But if it's a direct comment on documentation >that would help those writing the docs, it goes to freebsd-doc. Sure. My above example was (perhaps badly written) about how to _get_ documentation that helps out, so as to avoid having to ask a question. I am sure that there are probably many other tutorials on the net in addition to the FAQ/handbook: I just don't know where to look. >> Now, if only I could find out how to get webcopy to work so that I >> could download new sections and read them offline... > >OK, someone here might suggest what you could use to do this, point you >to it and its documentation, and if you got stuck you could write to >-questions. But you'd probably get better advice on what to use if you >asked -questions in the first place. Yes, I figured that would be a -questions question :-) >> If a lot of these developments (the newbies page and the newbies list >> itself) are only just starting to get off the ground, maybe it will >> take some time for this information to filter around so that the really >> clueless newbies (the "How much space on my C: drive will FreeBSD >> take?" ones) might start looking here for advice in the first place..? > >No, if they start looking here for technical advice, or offering it >here, they'll be gently advised that they are acting against the >published list charter. That kind of question can be and therefore is >answered in freebsd-questions. My mistake in misinterpreting the lists, again. But I'll bet that the experts on -questions must get *sick* of answering that kind of question above! :-( Although the newbies webpage could well be a useful 'self-service' form of support in itself, if it has pointers to useful sources of info. >> I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best >> way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up >> with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. > >OK, that's a separate issue. It's a gripe. It's a gripe likely to be a >particularly nasty gripe for newbies. We can let off steam a bit here >because it's chatty, so long as we don't fire steam at each other. 'Gripe' is maybe a little harsh: it's certainly a 'niggle' from my perspective, and I was hoping to propose a possible idea, perhaps worthy of interest, rather than come over as a 'do it my way' bossyboots.. But again, I know now that it's acceptable that I don't have to keep up with -questions constantly in order to make use of it. >> There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. > >No, we haven't heard much from you at all yet :-) >Tell us what you're up to with FreeBSD. Umm, I fear you might have heard too much from me, now. Sorry! As for me and FreeBSD, well.. I cheated and got a friend to do most of the installation grot, leaving me with a functional basic system, and X. I've installed a few ports (mostly successfully, not always, unfortunately), set up a ppp connection using user-ppp (that was a bit of a struggle, but I did feel chuffed after eventually succeeding), tried (and failed) to get sendmail to generate valid mail headers (didn't have the time to keep hacking and switched to xfmail as a temporary alternative: but will have to sort it eventually), installed leafnode and trn to restore my news access (but something keeps stuffing *every* newsgroup into my 'interesting' list once a week :-( ), and figured that my system is just about workable enough now that I can actually do things with it :-) Oh, and I got my printer working as well, which I was also quite chuffed with. The Handbook section was fairly easy to follow, although I was lucky in having an HP printer a la the examples ;-) I'm hoping to use FreeBSD for the usual user-y kind of stuff: word processing (hence the need for StarOffice documentation), DtP (I'm perhaps hoping there), the usual internet access, and also for website authoring and graphics work. I keep meaning to save up for my own domain and put my (at present, basic) Java and Perl skills into use. >> I do feel that the current list charter is slightly too restrictive, >> and also a bit abstract and vague such that it probably dissuades >> people from posting as it's not really clear what can be discussed here. > >If you believe, as some do, that newbies are defined by their >help-seeking behaviour, then you will be totally dissatisfied with this >list. If you believe that newbies can and do do a lot more than seek >help, even contribute to the FreeBSD Project in many ways, then you >might find this a nice little low volume low signal high noise list >that's kinda nice to hang around :-) As somebody else posted, you don't have to be a coder to help out. I'd like to help out with documentation or HowTo's, but I feel I have a bit to learn yet! Dave. --- David Marsh,drmarsh@bigfoot.comPLEX | http://squelch.home.ml.org/ | Glasgow/Glaschu, Scotland. *If urgent, phone: +44 141 400-0577*| > CYCLEWAY: cycle activism GB/IE: http://squelch.home.ml.org/cycleway/ < > includes bikes on public transport, & cycle organisation directories < To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 12:55:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29591 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:55:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk (root@irwell.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.47.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29568 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drmarsh@bigfoot.com) Received: from trek.squelch.localnet (man-190.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.40.241]) by irwell.zetnet.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA06484; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:54:54 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980724005343.42939@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:08:53 +0100 (BST) Organization: David_Marsh@HOME: see signature for information. From: David Marsh To: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Nik, On 23-Jul-98 Nik Clayton wrote: >On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: >> I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions >> to FreeBSD-questions. > >In a nutshell; > > 1. It means that people that want to ask questions only have one list > to post to, they don't need to cross-post to both lists. > > 2. People that want to answer questions only have to read one list. > Now that the 'nature' of -questions has been explained to me, perhaps my question was a bit inappropriate. I was thinking from the perspective of a relative newbie, that there would be likely to be some things I'd want to ask about that would be almost trivial to experienced users, and would probably end up adding to the 'chaff' on -questions. But if the 'wise ones' of -questions are happy to be an 'all-comers' Official Support List, for any and all types of questioning (well, apart from those for which there are other specific lists), and if I'm allowed to sleep easily knowing that I don't _have_ to subscribe to questions at all times, then maybe I feel all right about asking my (possibly dumb) questions on questions (politely requesting a cc: response) without having to read through all the rest of the articles myself. I really don't know how the wise ones manage to keep up with the barrage of queries: they must have some pretty damn impressive mail filters/junkers set up! ;-) > 3. The nature of the audience on -questions hopefully ensures that the > information you receive is more accurate. One of my reasons for > being on this list is to correct mis-information if it's posted. > Typically, I do this by mailing the person that posted the > mis-information, explaining why it's wrong, and then let them > followup back to the list with the right information. That's a clever way of doing it :-) >> Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' >> (and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? > >IMHO, that's borderline. Doubtless other people will disagree. >Something like > > "So, what did you guys use when you were learning 'vi'?" > >is more on the mark. I see what you mean, but don't I strike off some 'clueless' points in showing that I'd checked the basic documentation and had a vague idea at least of knowing what kind of thing I should have been looking for? > >> Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? >> www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. > >Nothing to do with being new to FreeBSD, so off topic for this list. >Again, >IMHO. I do take your point here, and I wasn't really sure if this would be appropriate as it's not _really_ a 'core' FreeBSD-specific issue. The possible problem here (and it's one that's likely to get bigger, I fear) is that the increasing number of home-user dial-up newbies can only get intermittent net access using expensive phone calls. I know it's a little lazy to only do the briefest of web searches, and also that it's much easier to ask for help on an email list or newsgroup which gets *automatically* stored up and dumped onto your computer, in order to reduce online time, but long browsing sessions could end up being hugely expensive otherwise. The real downside (?!) to this, that I can see coming to me, is that because the Unix software world is (fortunately!) still very large and diverse is that I might end up having to subscribe to dozens of newsgroups and lists to keep track of various applications or 'genres' of applications. And then of course, I have to work out whether a given application has been ported to FreeBSD, or if not, whether it's likely to be a simple task that I could achieve myself.. But back to the StarOffice documentation issue: the Linux version does run on FreeBSD, but I can't seem to find any documentation for it: I've checked StarDivision's website, and can't see any there, and the next question is, either where do I find the docs, or which newsgroup/list would I subscribe to find answers? It would seem logical to me to at least make initial enquiries among the FreeBSD community (as there are other people using these programs), and I suppose then, the question is: is a documentation question a -newbies or a -questions question? >> So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? >> Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing >> questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. > >-questions is a bit different in this case. Apart from anything else, >I believe most of the question answerers include a cc: back to the >original questioner when they reply. It's just the done thing. I realise this now, and certainly, upon re-reading Greg Lehey's 'How to ask a question.." posting, it does mention towards the end about cc:ing to the original questioner.. but doesn't make it clear *why* you should do this. It's only now that I realise that it isn't necessarily obligatory to subscribe to -questions, and that cc:ing is obviously essential for people who do use it as a 'support desk' and don't take the full list. Likewise this issue isn't mentioned at all in the list guidelines you get back from majordomo, or in the Handbook. Perhaps the majordomo guidelines should be updated to mention these aspects of the list, and draw attention to the courtesy "cc:" 'rule'? >I throw away perhaps 70% of -questions unread, based on the subject lines. >I skim the remaining 30%, looking for stuff that I might need to know >one day, or answering those questions that I can. That's pretty much what I'm doing, but sifting through it all is very time-consuming. I'm going to ask on my mailer's mailing-list about how I can make it filter out topics I'm not interested in. [Possible newbie advice: I use xfmail, which is pretty friendly, and it does have a support list. It can be set to post directly to my ISP's server, so I don't (yet) have to really put the effort into fixing my bogus sendmail configuration ;-)] >I'm subscribed to almost all the FreeBSD mailing lists. Takes me about >an hour and a half each day, most of which is spent deleting messages. eek! >> I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best >> way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up >> with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. > >Possibly not. There are subsets of -questions for some topics. For >example, the -scsi and -multimedia lists. If you were to post a >question to -questions along the line of "Which video card should I get >to do OpenGL" (or something like that) you'd probably be redirected to >the -multimedia mailing list. > >There's probably room for some more mailing lists along these lines, >possible a -ppp or -network for networking related problems, and so on. >If you want to start a discussion about this in -questions, feel free. I'm not /so/ sure if I'll do this now that the 'ethos' of -questions has been explained to me. But I might do: I think it might be easier if there were a number of extra lists that can 'focus' the queries a little better (such as the examples you've given above), but obviously that would have to have the consent of the answerers to be willing to track possibly extra lists in order to share their knowledge on specific issues. >> There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. > >My local copy of this list shows 2,441 messages since I subscribed, >which is roughly 20 a day. There was quite a vocal discussion about >various topics recently. That must have been before I subscribed: I've only been on the list for a couple of weeks - admittedly not long enough to be a proper sample period, but compared to the hundreds of articles -questions generates each day, that's pretty quiet :-) Dave. --- David Marsh,drmarsh@bigfoot.comPLEX | http://squelch.home.ml.org/ | Glasgow/Glaschu, Scotland. *If urgent, phone: +44 141 400-0577*| > CYCLEWAY: cycle activism GB/IE: http://squelch.home.ml.org/cycleway/ < > includes bikes on public transport, & cycle organisation directories < To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 14:18:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08807 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:18:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08786 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18265; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:17:36 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980727071734.09104@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:17:34 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: David Marsh Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: self-help [was: FreeBSD Newbies FAK] References: <19980724103351.13100@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from David Marsh on Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 07:21:58PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 07:21:58PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: > On 24-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: > >On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: > > >One day there might be a special place to ask newbie technical > >questions. If that happens, it will not be this mailing list, it will > >be another one. > > I think that would be a good idea. > Does anybody agree or have the inclination to set up such a list? Hehe, lots do. Nobody has figured out how to make it work yet (people-wise). That's all that's holding it back, and no-one has come anywhere near a workable plan yet. Locating documents... > You'll notice that Nik Clayton didn't feel that these were necessarily > quite appropriate topics. Obviously everybody has differing opinions, and > I'm not in a position to say which is "right", but perhaps my little > examples there maybe illustrate that it's a little hard to understand just > quite what can be asked here? No-one can ever be faulted for asking about documentation here, though they might be redirected sometimes. For something basic or general, like vi, we should know about its documentation and tutorials here. For a specific application your chances would be better on -questions. See the second paragraph under "Manuals" in the FAK. It's a border-line case; nothing you did in this instance would be wrong, even though you might be redirected to others who could help better, for example to -multimedia to find information about my ancient GUS Classic. > In the case of FreeBSD, obviously the opposite occurs where questioners > aren't necessarily list subscribers, and therefore personal cc:'s become > necessary. > > I'd like to suggest that maybe the list advice from majordomo should make > this point clearer, which is different from most other lists. Good idea. Note, however, that it seems that the vast majority don't bother to read that notice from majordomo :-( > It's just that for home-users, prolonged periods of searching can end up > very expensive. Perhaps we need more pointers to easily downloadable > information [1], to save online time. I'm certainly going to check the > 'newbies' page on the website to see what it says! I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the amount of info packed into a few bytes there, but if not, do let me know. > [1] And if/when I feel I'm experienced enough, I'd like to contribute to > the 'official' documentation project at some stage. Great idea. The freebsd-doc mailing list is very low volume, just work, no idle chatter. You could subscribe there without hardly noticing it and lurk for a while. Even first-day newbies make good doc reviewers. > So it's either filter through a huge mail download or spend online time > searching: You pays your money, you takes your choice ;-) > I wish we had cheaper phone calls, and then this wouldn't be such a > difficulty! Something interesting has just come up here. A friend a couple of towns away is going to install FreeBSD on his home computer. Since he knows only DOS he'll bring his computer around for the installation, take it home, and be on his own with the manuals. He has no Internet access, no modem, so he'll sink or swim on the documentation that's provided on the CD. I suspect there's a few people in that situation in expensive countries like yours and mine, but we'd never hear about them, would we :-) That's one of the reasons why I strongly encourage documentation efforts to be put into the FreeBSD Project itself, rather than set up on a private site somewhere for "all" to use. Not everyone is "all" :-) > Just as long as the wise ones on -questions don't mind a small flood of > 'newbie' (but hopefully not 'clueless') questions from me. No problem. The more they see newbies making a sincere effort to work things out for themselves, the more they'll be keen to help. If you have read documentation and checked your configs before asking a question, let them know and it'll be easier to give you the right help. Let them know you're a newbie and they'll answer you at that level. Without sufficient background info, they're as lost as we are. > I had just thought that a degree of separation between beginner, and > more technical questions, might have been beneficial. In theory, yes. In practice, it relies on the people *asking* the questions to be experienced enough to know the difference, which is rarely the case for newbies. Some easy looking problems newbies have are real guru-stumpers! Now if we could employ someone to read every question and pass them on to the appropriate helper... but that'd be a full on 24 hour job, and we've got no funds and busy volunteers. > I understand what you mean, and at the end of the day, any such move would > rely on the goodwill of the experts. But to give an example, I'd hope that > in, say, 6 months, I'd have progressed enough to perhaps help out some of > the then newbies, while most of the harder questions currently on -questions > would still be about things I have no experience of. We all hope for that, but without an expert review system it's too risky. During my brief stint as a Linux user I was given copious amounts of advice from other users, all sounding quite expert, nearly all wrong. It took months to unlearn that stuff! On this list we've seen some people attempting to "help" who present themselves with such an air of authority that they sound absolutely correct, but what they recommend can range between misleading and downright dangerous. How do we know who to believe? The people who help on -questions would rather answer the questions in the presence of their critical peers than spend additional time correcting the effects of misinformation gathered elsewhere. > Just as long as it is appropriate to ask questions about how to get > documentation here [1], I wasn't sure if it was? > > [1] Because that is half the battle! Once you have the *right* > documentation, solving a particular problem isn't quite as bad! Exactly! For that reason, no documentation-seeking question can ever be considered naughty for -newbies, even though it might need redirecting to -questions. > But I'll bet that the experts on -questions must get *sick* of answering > that kind of question above! :-( If it's in the documentation they would find it tedious and unnecessary. That question... urk, I deleted it, about how much space on C: for downloading freebsd... I don't think that's well documented, and if I am right, ask there often enough and someone will document it :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 14:32:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11356 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11181; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:31:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18299; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:31:20 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980727073117.42285@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:31:17 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: David Marsh Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK References: <19980724005343.42939@nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from David Marsh on Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 06:08:53PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 06:08:53PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: > > But back to the StarOffice documentation issue: the Linux version does run > on FreeBSD, but I can't seem to find any documentation for it: I've checked > StarDivision's website, and can't see any there, and the next question is, > either where do I find the docs, or which newsgroup/list would I subscribe > to find answers? I think this is quite appropriate for -questions. In fact, I've shot it across there to save time. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Can anyone point Dave to the docs or other assistance? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 14:54:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14633 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:54:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14615 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18350; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:53:56 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980727075351.35361@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:53:51 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: David Marsh Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Me and FreeBSD [was: FreeBSD Newbies FAK] References: <19980724103351.13100@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from David Marsh on Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 07:21:58PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 07:21:58PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: > > As for me and FreeBSD, well.. > > I cheated and got a friend to do most of the installation grot, leaving me > with a functional basic system, and X. > > I've installed a few ports (mostly successfully, not always, unfortunately), Do you use ports or packages? I prefer packages myself, because there's nothing about them I can change so they give the illusion that nothing can go wrong :-) But the old-timers really get off on typing 'make'. > set up a ppp connection using user-ppp (that was a bit of a struggle, but I > did feel chuffed after eventually succeeding), > > tried (and failed) to get sendmail to generate valid mail headers (didn't > have the time to keep hacking and switched to xfmail as a temporary > alternative: but will have to sort it eventually), I haven't tried xfmail, but I've seen some pretty cruddy stuff produced by it. Did you have to tweak it much to make your emails look good? > installed leafnode and trn to restore my news access (but something keeps > stuffing *every* newsgroup into my 'interesting' list once a week :-( ), Aaah, news... makes me reach for the cross and garlic. You can have it. > and figured that my system is just about workable enough now that I can > actually do things with it :-) > > Oh, and I got my printer working as well, which I was also quite chuffed > with. The Handbook section was fairly easy to follow, although I was lucky > in having an HP printer a la the examples ;-) That's a big help. I bought the sound card I did because it was well supported by FreeBSD. By the time I got into FreeBSD, my model had become so old that hardly anyone has heard of them now :-( > I'm hoping to use FreeBSD for the usual user-y kind of stuff: word > processing (hence the need for StarOffice documentation), DtP (I'm perhaps > hoping there), Pssst! The GIMP is great for graphics. It's like photoshop, if you know that one. > the usual internet access, and also for website authoring and > graphics work. I keep meaning to save up for my own domain and put my > (at present, basic) Java and Perl skills into use. Sounds good! Let us know when you get this going. It's great having your own server to practise on, even if it has nobody to serve for a while. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 17:18:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02788 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:18:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02734 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:18:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18611; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:17:40 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980727101736.63991@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:17:37 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What tipped the balance References: <3.0.3.32.19980726194703.0069a5ac@mail.interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Someone asked me in private mail why I chose FreeBSD instead of another OS, and I thought it might make an interesting topic. This is not about the benefits of FreeBSD versus something else, it's about what affected us personally when we made the decision. The main issue for me was that I wanted to learn unix, learn it right, and learn it once. I'm not a student or a career computer person so I only have the time to learn it once. FreeBSD looked to be more of a "real unix" and seemed to be used almost exclusively (then) by serious people with a lot of experience, but people I didn't know, whereas I knew a lot of home users and students who were using Linux for fun and hacking, but not professionally. One friend almost talked me into Coherent but sending a small amount of money overseas was a major hassle. Eventually I tried Linux and FreeBSD. When the Linux users I knew started pushing hard for me to use Linux no matter what, and the FreeBSD users said it depends what you want to do, I knew that FreeBSD was chosen by those who know how to choose. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 20:09:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25753 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25748 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-5.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.69]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA21565; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980727101736.63991@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:09:59 -0300 (ADT) Reply-To: arthur@col.auracom.com From: arthur To: Sue Blake Subject: RE: What tipped the balance Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: > Someone asked me in private mail why I chose FreeBSD instead of another > OS, and I thought it might make an interesting topic. This is not about > the benefits of FreeBSD versus something else, it's about what affected > us personally when we made the decision. > > The main issue for me was that I wanted to learn unix, learn it right, > and learn it once. I'm not a student or a career computer person so I > only have the time to learn it once. FreeBSD looked to be more of a > "real unix" and seemed to be used almost exclusively (then) by serious > people with a lot of experience, but people I didn't know, whereas I > knew a lot of home users and students who were using Linux for fun and > hacking, but not professionally. One friend almost talked me into > Coherent but sending a small amount of money overseas was a major > hassle. Eventually I tried Linux and FreeBSD. > lol ... Coherent 3.2.1 was the first Unix varient I had ever used, at the time ISP prices were too much and I wanted an operating system that I could run a BBS on and still use my computer. I used that for about three years, once the ISP prices came down I had to switch back to Windows to have access to the net, at this point I tried Linux, but it left a bad taste in my mouth (for lack of a better term). I found a copy of Coherent 4.x but the networking capibilty was a bit lacking, so I went looking for this thing called FreeBSD ....... I read the opening page of the web site, ran over to a friend's apt, who was in the market for "a free unix that he could use a proxy server with his Novell network". He didn't make it through the first web page before he started muttering "where's their ftp site" ...... ... well, a box of beer later and what we both considered an easy install, niether of use have looked back. Although he still has to worry about Novell, Win95, NT, and a few others, I get to sit back every day and enjoy FreeBSD. I have been using FreeBSD for close to two years now and I can confidently say this is the O/S for me. If just one person reads this message and gives FreeBSD an honest try I'll be happy. The support is great, the mail archives are great, ftp sites .... etc etc ..... The friend I had mentioned above has since moved and is still using FreeBSD on a daily basis, mostly for personal choice but he tries very hard to stick a FreeBSD box in network whenever he gets the chance. For anyone thinking about giving FreeBSD a try I just want to relay something he had said the last time I was talking to him, out of all the networking O/S's he has used FreeBSD has the best web/online support he's ever seen, and I'd have to agree 100%. I could go on about how stable and reliable I find FreeBSD to be but it's getting late and work comes too early in the morning. > When the Linux users I knew started pushing hard for me to use Linux no > matter what, and the FreeBSD users said it depends what you want to do, > I knew that FreeBSD was chosen by those who know how to choose. > FreeBSD is a choice that you'll always look back on and smile about. I can't see myself using anything else on my home systems. I just wish I could get a ball cap with the FreeBSD logo on it, that would really put a smile on my face ;) ltr - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 21:24:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05341 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dsinw.com (hamellr@dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05336 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id VAA26122; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:22:24 -0700 (PDT) From: rick hamell cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: <19980727101736.63991@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My story is a bit different from your's Sue. Like (I suspect) many others on this list, I am a career computer geek. :) The company I was working for opened up a small Internet provider at my insistance. I found a good Linux administrator who helped us get everything setup and baby sit the entire system. He chose Redhat 4.0. While I was impressed with what a UNIX system in general could do, my personal experiences with Linux up to that point had been disappointing. I had installed both 1.0 and 2.2 on my computer and had them deleted within a week as I didn't have the time to play with a whole new operating system. Anyways, the Net stuff went ok, but we had too many small unexplainable problems. The Web Server would crash with only three people acessing it, modems would drop out intermittently, etc. After several months we ended up putting in a FreeBSD box just to route traffic and our problems almost completly disappeared. (Our remaining problems were traced to a poorly installed piece of equipment by the phone company.) Later on I started working for Rod Grimes who is on the core team. He showed me through installing and building commercial grade systems what FreeBSD really could do. (Including, FYI the machine that is now ftp.cdrom.com) Since then, my opinions of both systems has changed dramatically. FreeBSD isn't THE answer for everyone, but if you're doing any kind of routing and file serving it's perfect. While Linux is a good desktop system. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 26 22:15:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12206 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:15:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA12197 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjsan@bga.com) Received: (qmail 21086 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1998 05:15:25 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 1998 05:15:25 -0000 Received: from stevan (dial-47-59.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.251.59]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA21283 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:15:22 -0500 Message-Id: X-Sender: sjsan@mailserv.bga.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:11:20 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Stevan S." Subject: Re: What tipped the balance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey All, As I was reading this, I started to think about the first time I was introduced to personal computer. I remember the machine will. A 386 with DOS 5.0. Then I worked my way up the latter from Windows 3.* to Windows 95. During my last days of using Windows 3.* some users were trying to get me to install Linux when I mentioned about going with Windows 95. I had no idea what Linux was so only with that I went with Windows 95. Then I was introduced to Solairs(sp) and I was given a free account to play with. Over time I realized this could be a powerful OS. A year would pass and I installed Windows NT which is my current OS. As I familiarized myself with different OS's I started to notice FreeBSD everywhere (web server, irc servers, ftp servers, etc) and I was like "what's the big deal". So to get an idea of what was going on I installed FreeBSD. With only the basic knowledge of Unix I took on FreeBSD as a summer project (go figure ;-) ). It is 2 month later and my 6-7 installs I find myself understanding this OS. I'm not close to converting to a Unix environment but it gives me an insight of the Unix world and this knowledge will come in handy some day. My 2 cents, :) Stevan At 10:17 AM 7/27/98 +1000, you wrote: >Someone asked me in private mail why I chose FreeBSD instead of another >OS, and I thought it might make an interesting topic. This is not about >the benefits of FreeBSD versus something else, it's about what affected >us personally when we made the decision. > >The main issue for me was that I wanted to learn unix, learn it right, >and learn it once. I'm not a student or a career computer person so I >only have the time to learn it once. FreeBSD looked to be more of a >"real unix" and seemed to be used almost exclusively (then) by serious >people with a lot of experience, but people I didn't know, whereas I >knew a lot of home users and students who were using Linux for fun and >hacking, but not professionally. One friend almost talked me into >Coherent but sending a small amount of money overseas was a major >hassle. Eventually I tried Linux and FreeBSD. > >When the Linux users I knew started pushing hard for me to use Linux no >matter what, and the FreeBSD users said it depends what you want to do, >I knew that FreeBSD was chosen by those who know how to choose. > >-- > >Regards, > -*Sue*- > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > -- Stevan S. EOs`@irc sjsan@bga.com http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~aphex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 01:09:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27535 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA27530 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA19073 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:08:16 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199807270808.UAA19073@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:08:49 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz In-reply-to: References: <001601bdb68f$083f8100$c825a3ce@davenport.bendnet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jul-98 Samantha Stack wrote: > >Just wanted to say I think the EFnet channel #freebsd is a lot of help >and also a lot of fun :) > I've been in there, and been abused by an op for "not having learned anything" since the last time I was there. I've found #freebsd on undernet to be less crowded and more friendly and helpful. For an example of the kind of help I've recently obtained from that channel, try the CD-ROM and bash sections of the webpage in my signature. -- Dan Langille DVL Software Limited http://www.dvl-software.com/freebsd : my [mis]adventures To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 01:09:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27554 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:09:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA27545 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA19090 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:08:23 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199807270808.UAA19090@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:08:49 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What tipped the balance Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz In-reply-to: <19980727101736.63991@welearn.com.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Jul 98, at 10:17, Sue Blake wrote: > Someone asked me in private mail why I chose FreeBSD instead of another > OS, and I thought it might make an interesting topic. This is not about > the benefits of FreeBSD versus something else, it's about what affected us > personally when we made the decision. For me, it was the recommendation of someone else that used FreeBSD already. He gave me a box with the OS already installed. -- Dan Langille DVL Software Limited http://www.dvl-software.com/freebsd : my [mis]adventures To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 01:54:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03861 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:54:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from email.mcmail.com (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03842 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rtwyman@mcmail.com) Received: from mcmail.com ([195.44.21.225]) by email.mcmail.com (9.9.9/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17081 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:53:24 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35BC3FF3.E1EFA4BC@mcmail.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:53:08 +0100 From: Rick Twyman Reply-To: rtwyman@mcmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: What tipped the balance References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Simpler than that:- Linux failed to diagnose my graphics card and monitor FreeBSD succeeded. P.S. "In another place" I use Delphi to make little maths graphics routines (three and four dimensional packing problems for example) Newbie-Question: what should I look for in the freeBSD world what will give me a similar functionality? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 04:01:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25677 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:01:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA25664 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gary.hall@mcg-graphics.com) Received: from ([158.152.57.254]) [158.152.57.254] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z0l1Q-00050A-00; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:00:52 +0000 Received: from mcg-graphics.com by mcg-graphics.com ; 27 Jul 98 11:06:54 UT Message-ID: <35BC5F4A.99CE4E4B@mcg-graphics.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:06:51 +0100 From: Gary Hall X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Checking amount of RAM used Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Could someone tell me how you can check the amount of RAM both available and in use at a given time on FreeBSD 2.2.6 ? Thanks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 04:20:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27674 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA27668 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:20:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA03911 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:19:39 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199807271119.XAA03911@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:20:18 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Many assumptions are made Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have you ever noticed how easy it is to forget what it's like to not know anything? I keep being reminded what it is like to be a novice. And that's a good think. As we gain knowledge, we tend to forget that we once did not comprehend what we now consider to be basics. And much of those "basics" are by no means intuitive. For example, I just downloaded nslint and tried to install it. Every previous port installed first time. Just enter "make install". No problems. But for the life of me, I can't figure out what the installation procedure it. There are no instructions with the port (none that I can find; please see my thread in the questions list). I'm finding it difficult to tell the difference between my lack of UNIX knowledge and the lack of full information being provided to the user. I'm sure the rest of this list must be encountering similar experiences. -- Dan Langille DVL Software Limited http://www.dvl-software.com/freebsd : my [mis]adventures To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 05:06:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04794 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:06:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from welchlink.welch.jhu.edu (welchlink.welch.jhu.EDU [128.220.59.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA04739 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:05:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from akabi@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu) Received: from localhost by welchlink.welch.jhu.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA29853; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:05:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "N. Emile Akabi-Davis" To: Sean Harding cc: FreeBSD Newbies Subject: Re: Reflections on FreeBSD 2.2.6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Sean Harding wrote: > On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, N. Emile Akabi-Davis wrote: > > > do. Major problem for me is getting used to using the ESC key for > > filename completion instead of the TAB key. I also have to get > > used to the fact that csh does not allow me to use the UP/DOWN > > This isn't FreeBSD, it's the shell you are using. If you make your shell > bash instead of csh, it will be just like Linux's default in that regard. > Or, try tcsh if you want a csh-style shell. Thanks. I have now changed shells but just have a big minor problem of getting /etc/bashrc and ~/.bashrc sources when I log on. I am going to delve into that over the next couple of days. -- Caio |Oliver's Law: Experience is something you N.Emile | do not get until just after you need it. /*Standard disclaimer in place*/| Help Stamp out and Abolish #include | Redundancy and Repitition. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 05:46:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10085 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:46:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA10076 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA21441; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:46:13 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980727224609.46579@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:46:09 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Many assumptions are made References: <199807271119.XAA03911@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199807271119.XAA03911@cyclops.xtra.co.nz>; from Dan Langille on Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:20:18PM +1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:20:18PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > Have you ever noticed how easy it is to forget what it's like to not know > anything? I keep being reminded what it is like to be a novice. Wow! You mean, you've already had the chance to forget for a while? :-) > And that's a good think. As we gain knowledge, we tend to forget that > we once did not comprehend what we now consider to be basics. And > much of those "basics" are by no means intuitive. > > For example, I just downloaded nslint and tried to install it. Every > previous port installed first time. Just enter "make install". No > problems. But for the life of me, I can't figure out what the > installation procedure it. There are no instructions with the port (none > that I can find; please see my thread in the questions list). Yes I did see that, and I'll offer a suggestion. It might be a bit hard for people to answer that question just in terms of "how to install?" Maybe if you gave them an account of what you had done and what came up on the screen that you didn't expect, someone in -questions would find it easier to zero in on the problem for you. I usually go for packages instead of ports. I'm not sure what all the pros and cons are, but I figure that if there's going to be any hassles compiling or any smart decisions to be made when doing so, let someone else work that out and I'll just have the provided binary, thanks :-) It'd be nice to use ports all the time and exercise some of the control that method allows, but I'm just at the stage of using Midnight Commander to whizzy through and figure out tiny bits of what's going on in the ports and packages. People who are more comfortable with unix seem to use ports all the time, so there must be a strong reason to do so that I can't appreciate right now. > I'm finding it difficult to tell the difference between my lack of UNIX > knowledge and the lack of full information being provided to the user. > > I'm sure the rest of this list must be encountering similar experiences. Constantly. I misattribute it to one or the other, depending on mood. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 08:38:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06551 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:38:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06514 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:37:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts3-24.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.120]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07088; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <35BC5F4A.99CE4E4B@mcg-graphics.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:39:02 -0300 (ADT) Reply-To: arthur@col.auracom.com From: arthur To: Gary Hall Subject: RE: Checking amount of RAM used Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Jul-98 Gary Hall wrote: > Could someone tell me how you can check the amount of RAM both available > and in use at a given time on FreeBSD 2.2.6 ? > > Thanks > .. run the proggie "top" it's a great untility for that. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 11:00:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01703 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from control.colossus.dyn.ml.org (206-18-113-178.la.inreach.net [206.18.113.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01608 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@colossus.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by control.colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05782; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:57:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199807270808.UAA19073@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Computer Help From: Donald Burr To: Dan Langille Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My secret spy satellite informs me that on 27-Jul-98, Dan Langille wrote: > On 23-Jul-98 Samantha Stack wrote: >> >>Just wanted to say I think the EFnet channel #freebsd is a lot of help >>and also a lot of fun :) >> > > I've been in there, and been abused by an op for "not having learned > anything" since the last time I was there. I've found #freebsd on > undernet to be less crowded and more friendly and helpful. > > For an example of the kind of help I've recently obtained from that > channel, try the CD-ROM and bash sections of the webpage in my > signature. Don't write off the EFnet #freebsd channel so quickly. We sometimes forget that the people behind those IRC screen names are, when it comes down to it, "only human." They have all the qualities and failings that humans have had for countless generations. They have bad hair days, bad work days, bad bosses, bad traffic, bad coffee, bad crashes, and all sorts of things that tend to alter a human's mood for the worst part. Plain and simple, Sometimes the ops get cranky. Hell, Sometimes even the USERS get cranky. And sometimes (really, most of the time, from my experience), everyone's in a happy, joking, willing-to-help mood. Unfortunately, it's "luck o the draw" sometimes. I *can* tell you that, if I happen to be on #freebsd, I always endeavor to help, and if the oper's are acting skittish at the moment, I usually set up my own channel and invite people there until things quiet down in #freebsd. So look for the irc nick "dburr" :) --- Donald Burr *NEW EMAIL ADDRESS!* | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. >>FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations - http://www.freebsd.org/<< To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 11:17:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05250 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from inet.chipweb.ml.org (qmailr@c1003518-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [24.1.82.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA05229 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ludwigp@bigfoot.com) Message-Id: <199807271817.LAA05229@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 1413 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1998 18:16:19 -0000 Received: from speedy.chipweb.ml.org (172.16.1.1) by inet.chipweb.ml.org with SMTP; 27 Jul 1998 18:16:19 -0000 X-Sender: ludwigp2@mail-r X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:01:29 -0700 To: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" From: Ludwig Pummer Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: <35BC3FF3.E1EFA4BC@mcmail.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:53 AM 7/27/98 +0100, Rick Twyman wrote: Christmas of 1996, I went to the Christmas Party hosted by my ISP (it was a small, 10-line, $10/month for a TIA PPP account ISP, www.sns.com). Until then, the only experience I had was using my shell account, and I didn't even know about man pages then. So I asked the ISP's Unix guru, Bob Palawoda (now at www.fiver.net), what he thought about a guy like me loading Linux (the only free unix I had heard about until then). He suggested FreeBSD, for the reasons that you could someday contribute your own code improvement. I knew that would be a long way off (right now, my C experience is limited to simple "read a comma delimited database and write a price list with it" CGI scripts), but I became interested and visited www.freebsd.org. I also visited a Linux web site or two, but they didn't have the extensive Handbook or FAQ. I still had a 14.4k modem back then, and didn't have a free partition, so I spent my time reading the Handbook and the FAQ and all the instructions I could get to with my web browser. So I finally repartitioned my hard drive and installed FreeBSD from a DOS partition. I had downloaded bin and a few other things. FreeBSD booted, but I didn't know what to do. So I hit the reset switch to go back to Window$. Read up a bit. Booted back into FreeBSD. The startup fsck did its thing. I discovered I hadn't installed the manpages. Booted into Window$, fdisked my FreeBSD partition away, download the manpages, and reinstalled. Since then, I've loaded FreeBSD onto three other computers of my own (all of my computers have a FreeBSD partition on them). One's my cable modem gateway and server for everything. One's my DNS and kerberos server. One's my laptop, which I use to write CGIs with XEmacs. My desktop system was without FreeBSD for a while, but then I got kind of frustrated with how slow XEmacs, Netscape 4, and fvwm95 were going on the laptop (P-133, 24MB, FreeBSD 2.2.6), so I reloaded FreeBSD onto my desktop, with kde (finally!). And that's my story... I still feel like a newbie sometimes (when installing something totally unfamiliar, like when I installed kerberos), but that's what documentations, irc, or freebsd-questions (and MLs) are for! --Ludwig Pummer ludwigp@bigfoot.com ludwigp@chipweb.ml.org ICQ UIN: 692441 http://chipweb.home.ml.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 13:44:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04432 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.bendnet.com (mail.bendnet.com [199.2.205.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04416 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:44:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from samantha@bendnet.com) Received: from bendnet.com (tog@sam.bendnet.com [199.2.205.22]) by mail.bendnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25633; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:52:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from samantha@bendnet.com) Message-ID: <35BCE652.2D2FFF4F@bendnet.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:42:58 -0700 From: Samantha Dahl Stack Organization: BendNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Burr CC: Dan Langille , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ya, what dburr said! Donald Burr wrote: > My secret spy satellite informs me that on 27-Jul-98, Dan Langille wrote: > > On 23-Jul-98 Samantha Stack wrote: > >> > >>Just wanted to say I think the EFnet channel #freebsd is a lot of help > >>and also a lot of fun :) > >> > > > > I've been in there, and been abused by an op for "not having learned > > anything" since the last time I was there. I've found #freebsd on > > undernet to be less crowded and more friendly and helpful. > > > > For an example of the kind of help I've recently obtained from that > > channel, try the CD-ROM and bash sections of the webpage in my > > signature. > > Don't write off the EFnet #freebsd channel so quickly. > > We sometimes forget that the people behind those IRC screen names are, > when it comes down to it, "only human." They have all the qualities and > failings that humans have had for countless generations. They have bad > hair days, bad work days, bad bosses, bad traffic, bad coffee, bad > crashes, and all sorts of things that tend to alter a human's mood for the > worst part. Plain and simple, Sometimes the ops get cranky. > Hell, Sometimes even the USERS get cranky. And sometimes (really, most of > the time, from my experience), everyone's in a happy, joking, > willing-to-help mood. Unfortunately, it's "luck o the draw" sometimes. > > I *can* tell you that, if I happen to be on #freebsd, I always endeavor to > help, and if the oper's are acting skittish at the moment, I usually set up > my own channel and invite people there until things quiet down in #freebsd. > So look for the irc nick "dburr" :) > --- > Donald Burr *NEW EMAIL ADDRESS!* | PGP: Your > WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to > Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. > Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. > >>FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations - http://www.freebsd.org/<< > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 16:58:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13491 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:58:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.austasia.net (ausns1.austasia.net [203.23.167.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA13335 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beatteam@austasia.net) Message-Id: <199807272357.QAA13335@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 29290 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1998 22:52:42 -0000 Received: from ppp22.melbourne.austasia.net (HELO pc00) (@203.23.160.122) by ausns1.austasia.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 1998 22:52:42 -0000 Reply-To: From: "Brett Gray" To: "Freebsd Newbies List" Subject: Dial on Demand connection time Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:55:47 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can anyone please tell me how to increase the time before the modem hangs up after connecting to my ISP on a Dial-On-Demand connection. I cant seem to find any refernece for this anywhere Thanks Brett Gray To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 27 20:54:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24343 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:54:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from natsiq.nunanet.com (root@natsiq.nunanet.com [199.247.47.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA24333 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:53:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@nunanet.com) Received: from natsiq.nunanet.com (natsiq.nunanet.com [199.247.47.3]) by natsiq.nunanet.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA17896; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:47:38 -0400 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:47:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcel Mason {Personal} To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: <19980727101736.63991@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:17:37 +1000 > From: Sue Blake > To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: What tipped the balance > > Someone asked me in private mail why I chose FreeBSD instead of another > OS, and I thought it might make an interesting topic. You're right Sue, it makes a darned good topic, so I'll toss my my 2 cents worth into it > The main issue for me was that I wanted to learn unix, learn it right, > and learn it once. We are definately {almost} on the same wave length. I work with an ISP that uses FreeBSD, as I moved more and more from a support role to an administrator role I decided that I needed to know more and to do that I needed to work on it a lot more than dropping to a shell session at work. > When the Linux users I knew started pushing hard for me to use Linux no > matter what, and the FreeBSD users said it depends what you want to do, > I knew that FreeBSD was chosen by those who know how to choose. When I made the decision that the home machine had to be a *nix of some sort I started talking to people in the industry that I work with on a regular basis and almost without fail I was told, "cut your teeth on Linux, the learning curve is much more gentle and the transition to FreeBSD is just not going to be difficult, all the concepts carry across but Linux is just a bit more friendly on the start-up end". The people telling me this are guys & gals that make *nix machines of almost any variety (we work with FreeBSD, BSDi, SCO, Linux) of *nix machine do absolute magic. Now before I get flamed for expounding the virtues of Linux on FreeBSD list I have to say, FreeBSD from the get-go may be wonderful for many users but I find Linux to be a great learning tool for the better (IMHO) platform of FreeBSD. Thus ends the story of how Marcel ended up living on FreeBSD during the day and coming home to Redhat 5.1 in the evenings. Marcel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 28 00:30:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22148 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:30:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21996 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA26102; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:28:27 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199807280728.TAA26102@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Samantha Dahl Stack Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:28:20 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <35BCE652.2D2FFF4F@bendnet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Jul 98, at 13:42, Samantha Dahl Stack wrote: > Ya, what dburr said! > > Donald Burr wrote: > > > My secret spy satellite informs me that on 27-Jul-98, Dan Langille > > wrote: > > > On 23-Jul-98 Samantha Stack wrote: > > >> > > >>Just wanted to say I think the EFnet channel #freebsd is a lot of help > > >>and also a lot of fun :) > > >> > > > > > > I've been in there, and been abused by an op for "not having learned > > > anything" since the last time I was there. I've found #freebsd on > > > undernet to be less crowded and more friendly and helpful. > > > > > > For an example of the kind of help I've recently obtained from that > > > channel, try the CD-ROM and bash sections of the webpage in my > > > signature. > > > > Don't write off the EFnet #freebsd channel so quickly. > > > > We sometimes forget that the people behind those IRC screen names are, > > when it comes down to it, "only human." They have all the qualities and > > failings that humans have had for countless generations. They have bad > > hair days, bad work days, bad bosses, bad traffic, bad coffee, bad > > crashes, and all sorts of things that tend to alter a human's mood for > > the worst part. Plain and simple, Sometimes the ops get cranky. Hell, > > Sometimes even the USERS get cranky. And sometimes (really, most of the > > time, from my experience), everyone's in a happy, joking, > > willing-to-help mood. Unfortunately, it's "luck o the draw" sometimes. Unfortunately, my experience was not as above. I hesitate the name the op in question as that would be unfair. But yes, I've seen this person respond in the same way more than once, and not just to me. Mind you, I have seen that person in a better mood from time to time. That not withstanding, the issus is that first contact is very important. If I get put off by the contact, imagine what other people will encounter. I've been on IRC several years. I know what's acceptable and what isn't. I can usually tell good moods from bad. But the reaction I received on that one night was definitly off-putting. Perhaps, in time, that op will gain my trust again. I'm an op on more than one channel, so I know what you are referrring to. But that doesn't change the situation. I've been bad to efnet #freebsd since. -- Dan Langille DVL Software Limited http://www.dvl-software.com/freebsd : my [mis]adventures To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 28 08:59:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06489 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06446 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:58:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA00215 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:57:06 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199807281557.IAA00215@pau-amma.whistle.com> Subject: Re: What tipped the balance Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:47:37 -0400 (EDT) >From: Marcel Mason {Personal} >> Someone asked me in private mail why I chose FreeBSD instead of another >> OS, and I thought it might make an interesting topic. >You're right Sue, it makes a darned good topic, so I'll toss my my 2 cents >worth into it >When I made the decision that the home machine had to be a *nix of some >sort I started talking to people in the industry that I work with on a >regular basis and almost without fail I was told, "cut your teeth on >Linux, the learning curve is much more gentle and the transition to >FreeBSD is just not going to be difficult, all the concepts carry across >but Linux is just a bit more friendly on the start-up end". Hmmmm.... Just 'cause it might prove interesting/amusing to some folks, I thought maybe this would be a reasonably good point for me to unleash some of my deathless prose.... :-} Back in 1985, I had been working in an IBM mainframe environment for a few years, the first couple doing "applications" work under CICS for a financial institution. Although it, in theory, could have been done in COBOL, I suppose, all our work was being doing in s/370 assembler. For various reasons, I started getting noticed by the systems programming group, and was offered a chance to switch over. [Note: in the IBM mainframe world, a "systems programmer" plays a role very similar to that of a "system administrator" in the UNIX world. One arguably salient difference is that -- at least up to 1993, when I left the mainframe world -- the only defined, supported interface to the actual operating system was in terms of IBM-supplied assembler "macros." This provided significant incentive for a systems programmer to be able to at least *read* assembly code....] So, I became a systems programmer. And S-100 computers were interesting, along with Intel 8080s (which were based on the 4004), and the Zilog Z80 was (from what I understood) quite an improvement.... Meanwhile, as a member of ACM (Association for Computing Machinery) and a couple of its Special Interest Groups (SIGs) -- SIGPLAN [programming languages] and SIGOPS [operating systems] -- I kept receiving articles about research being done on various aspects of each topic... and typically, that research was being done in UNIX-based environments. I had begun to think about buying a computer for myself, and was leaning toward an S-100 system... maybe building my own... and I bought (my first copy of) Kernighan & Pike's _The UNIX Programming Environment_. Also, as a new systems programmer, the first project I had was installing & implementing RACF (an add-on package for IBM's MVS which is often -- erroneously -- thought of as a "security" package; it's more of an administration/authentication/auditing package). Between those two experiences, I was quickly convinced that a multi-user system was the only sort of thing that makes any sort of sense (except possibly for an embedded system) -- unless, of course, the results are of so little import that they don't matter, such as for playing games. And around that time, vendors started making 68k-on-a-VMEbus-based UNIX systems; I sent off for information to a couple of them: Charles River Data Systems and Sage Microsystems. And I was about to receive a cash-out of the Employee Stock Ownership Plan, since the financial institution in question had just been merged with another. I received some information from Sage... but nothing from CRDS. Time (end of year -- tax concerns) was running out, so I bought a Stride Micro (Sage had changed its name) 440. (I finally did hear from CRDS a couple of months later.) Turned out that the Stride didn't -- yet! -- have UNIX ready; that wasn't until the following May, so I had a few months to learn somewhat about the hardware & UCSD Pascal (p-code, anyone?). Finally got System V/68 in May -- definitely AT&T-based. 14 characters per filename maximum.... f77 didn't work, so Stride hadn't shipped it. I set up an additional terminal in a spare bedroom that my brother used when he visited (I was living in southern California at the time, and he was teaching reasonably near by); when he wanted to write some FORTRAN programs, I explained the lack of f77 & handed him my copy of K&R, and "suggested" [being a big brother has its advantages...] that he learn C. Got a second 'phone line; put a couple of MODEMs on the machine (it had 10 serial ports) & started giving away accounts on what became one of(?) Orange county (California)'s first free public-access UNIX systems.... Also switched employers; spent another 7 years in the IBM mainframe world by day, UNIX stuff at home. Finally left IBM world to join the fellow who did the bulk of the UNIX port to the Stride in his consulting business. While there, I had my first exposure to UNIX (BSD/OS, in this case) on PC hardware (though fortunately at the time, I didn't need to actually do much with said hardware -- he handled that). Had acquired a Sun 3/60 in the mean time, and have since worked at a few other places; never needed to deal with PC hardware, let alone the Microsoft environments for same. [Well, I tried to use them a few times, and things kept breaking, which was effective aversion therapy for me.] Picked up a SPARCstation 5 (to join the other machines at home). As for FreeBSD... well, here at work is the only time I've used it. I still find PC hardware significantly more challenging than I think any hardware has any right to be. Then again, I recall being in the USENIX audience when Bill Jolitz got the news that Mike Karels was going to join Rob Kolstad, working for BSDI.... He was pretty upset.... Back to FreeBSD & PC hardware: so I'll admit that I'm no UNIX "newbie". On the other hand, I could hardly be more of a "newbie" with respect to PC hardware (and still function at all).... And even here, there are a couple of SPARC servers running Solaris 2.5. So FreeBSD isn't, by any means, an "exclusive" choice.... david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 28 09:40:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16865 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:40:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16803 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:40:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA00416; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:43:38 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: David Wolfskill cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: <199807281557.IAA00215@pau-amma.whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, David Wolfskill wrote: > As for FreeBSD... well, here at work is the only time I've used it. I > still find PC hardware significantly more challenging than I think any > hardware has any right to be. I can certainly agree with that! At work, I admin Solaris and IRIX machines...There are, of course, difficulties, but the hardware is really worth the extra money, IMHO. My only (personal) FreeBSD machine is one that I built from used parts for under $300...Actually, that's my only piece of PC hardware period. In my house, there are several other FreeBSD boxes. One is our gateway to the Internet. But those all belong to my roommaters. I run LinuxPPC on one of my Macs (I'd love to have a *BSD, but Linux is the only choice), and it's pretty good. At least at the hardware level, it's about as easy to deal with as any of the Suns we have. Macs have OpenFirmware, which is *extremely* similar to the rom monitor on the Suns, which no PC can think of matching. A little extra $$$ for non-PC hardware is always worth it if you can afford it. Now, we just need to get FreeBSD running on some better hardware, and we'll be set :-) sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"It's not a habit, it's cool. http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | I feel alive." NeXTMail OK! | --k's Choice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 28 11:50:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15129 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hotmail.com (f176.hotmail.com [207.82.251.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA15029 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from neutrino2000@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 28205 invoked by uid 0); 28 Jul 1998 18:48:30 -0000 Message-ID: <19980728184830.28204.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.115.47.39 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:48:30 PDT X-Originating-IP: [128.115.47.39] From: "Neutrino Phantom" To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:48:30 PDT Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:01 AM 7/27/98 -0700, Ludwig Pummer wrote his story Here's the perfect chance for me to thank the guy who got me into FreeBSD :) Thanks, Ludwig! A little over a year ago, I got fed up with continually complaining about Microsoft products but never using anything else. I didn't know much of anything about Unix, but I'd heard of Linux and decided to try it out. Not knowing the first thing about attacking the problem, I asked Ludwig (who knew a lot more, and still does) to help me out. He recommended that, instead of Linux, I should try FreeBSD. I must admit, it was easier to get FreeBSD installed than Linux. I never installed Linux because I couldn't figure out how, but FreeBSD's centralized system really made things easy (after Ludwig told me which directories to download - that wasn't as obvious for a Microsoft-world person). Since I've been incredibly busy, as always, I haven't really progressed that much in my knowledge of FreeBSD, and am most definitely still a newbie. (Another contributing cause was that I never got X working on my system - XFree86 didn't support my video chipset on either my desktop or my laptop.) However, what I did learn recently became very useful when I got a summer job a Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, and they stuck me in front of a Sun. Everybody was overjoyed when they heard that I could actually get around in Unix, and wasn't just a point-and-click Win95 child. I still use Windows NT for almost everything, but I use the FreeBSD environment exclusively when writing little programs (I'm just learning C++). My goal is to have the latest FreeBSD and XFree86 (hopefully supporting my hardware by then...) set up on my laptop by the time I go off to college in a year, and then ease myself out of the Microsoft world. -David Syphers (more proof that some people new to FreeBSD are _entirely_ new to Unix as well) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 28 12:34:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25013 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:34:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw1.konstanz.netsurf.de (root@gw1.konstanz.netsurf.de [194.163.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24882 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rainer.Duffner@konstanz.netsurf.de) Received: from duffner.konstanz.netsurf.de (surf87.konstanz.netsurf.de [194.163.242.87]) by gw1.konstanz.netsurf.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA24229; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:33:21 +0200 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:12:40 +0200 (MESZ) From: Rainer M Duffner Subject: RE: Checking amount of RAM used To: arthur cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Organization: enigma, http://www-stud.fh-konstanz.de/~enigma X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.46] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 27 Jul, arthur wrote: > > On 27-Jul-98 Gary Hall wrote: > > Could someone tell me how you can check the amount of RAM both available > > and in use at a given time on FreeBSD 2.2.6 ? > > > > Thanks > > > > .. run the proggie "top" it's a great untility for that. Yes, but ,e.g., HP-UX (a 'doubtful' OS on almost any other side, IMHO) there is a nice command 'mem' which tells you just how much RAM you have. Hm, I think digging in the kernel-sources would bring-up a syscall for that somehow (don't ask me). At boot-time, the RAM ist counted/detected, so there's a routine for that. One just needed to write a little C-prog around that call..... Hm, maybe this is not the best topic to discuss on a _newbie_ list..... cheers, Rainer -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |Rainer Duffner, E-Mail: duffner@fh-konstanz.de | | & Rainer.Duffner@konstanz.netsurf.de | |Fachhochschule Konstanz, Germany | |"What's a Network ?" - Bill Gates, early 1980s | | WWW:http://www-stud.fh-konstanz.de/~duffner | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 28 20:16:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24958 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ins2.netins.net (ins2.netins.net [167.142.225.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24924 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:16:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from johnmxl@netins.net) Received: from desm-10-118.dialup.netins.net (desm-10-118.dialup.netins.net [167.142.14.247]) by ins2.netins.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19705 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:16:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807290316.WAA19705@ins2.netins.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Amdor III" Organization: Badly needed....please help! To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:14:55 -0600 Subject: Re: What tipped the balance Reply-to: johnmxl@netins.net In-reply-to: <19980728184830.28204.qmail@hotmail.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought I'd chime in with my $0.02... I started playing with PCs when 386SX-16s were mainstream machines, 9600 baud modems were fast, and DOS 4.1 was brand-new. I had a chance to play with SCO at that time, but didn't. DOS was challenging enough, and I was trying to figure out what was so special about Windows 3.1. If I only knew then what I know now... I, like many others I've read about here, was looking at Linux as a solution to a problem (connecting a LAN to a dial-up ISP), but was turned toward FreeBSD by a trusted friend, Mike Stickney, who had just set up an internet server at his house (www.nocal.com) using FreeBSD and Apache. The project went away before I was able to do anything, but when the new budget year starts, I'm ready. At present I don't have FreeBSD running on anything...I'm scrounging hardware to build another box so that the family can continue to use the Wintel machine as-is. But I bought The Book, and the set of 2.2.5 CDs, and I'm learning. I can do quite a bit on telnet to my friend's server, at least at the user level. I never did attempt to install Linux...I've got the Red Hat CD and the "Linux for Dummies" book, but the same limitations that prevent installing FreeBSD preclude Linux too, so I can't compare the two yet... The more I see of the current commercial operating systems and the current free *nix systems, I think my educational efforts will be worthwhile. -- John Amdor III email: johnmxl@netins.net home: http://www.netins.net/showcase/johnmxl/ ICQ 3396049 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 28 22:07:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10536 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www01.netaddress.usa.net (www01.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10526 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:07:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gekk0@usa.net) Received: (qmail 29775 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Jul 1998 05:06:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19980729050632.29774.qmail@www01.netaddress.usa.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:06:32 From: gekk0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Dial on Demand connection time] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org try putting: set timeout 0 in your ppp.conf owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG wrote: > Can anyone please tell me how to increase the time before the modem hangs > up after connecting to my ISP on a Dial-On-Demand connection. > > I cant seem to find any refernece for this anywhere > > Thanks > > Brett Gray > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 28 23:26:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21245 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:26:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (pme31.sunshine.net [209.17.178.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21159 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA01033; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:25:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:25:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: John Amdor III cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: <199807290316.WAA19705@ins2.netins.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello All, Honestly I am not as fortunate as some here to have worked on the architecture that I would like to and will eventually. I finally got myself onto an 8086 about 8 years ago. Could only only do things with Ms dos, which was quickly a bore, for amusement I would go in and play around with Hex editors to see what I could make happen to old programs. I pieced together an 386-20 after buying a case, power supply, mother board, w/5MB on board for $80. through in a $35.00 Floppy drive, bought a 1.02 MB hard drive, and a 14.4modem. I was set, got an internet account and it wasn't long till I came across FreeBSD.org. At first I wasn't sure what it was, a program, a pipe dream, a flash in the pan, until I came across the magic word, "UNIX". What really sold me to commit some of my drive to FreeBSD was reading the introductory handbook pages, on the history of BSD, and the mission statement. I installed 2.1.6 just prior to 2.1.7 being released and had a really tough time in the beginning. But no matter what I could do to it I could find a way of fixing the mistakes I made without simply reinstalling (unlike some operating systems I know). It has also made working on Win95 machines a lot more understandable due to the fact that all the networking config files are strikingly familiar. Using and learning my way around FreeBSD has also benefited me personally, I now work with the local ISP, Sunshine Net. And although they operate on a MacIntosh base, I have the access to the networking tools and am able to try different things with the tools that are part of the OS. The knowledge will definitely come in handy when they release MacOSX. I now have myself a Pentium 100 on a TXPro Chipset Motherboard, and am really having fun with Xwindows and trying as many of the ports as time allows. I look forward to each release and especially look forward to a reason to build myself an Alpha :) That's my 32bits worth. Regards, Kevin G. Eliuk Discover Rock Solid, Discover FreeBSD | http://www.FreeBSD.Org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 29 03:19:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25622 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:19:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw1.konstanz.netsurf.de (root@gw1.konstanz.netsurf.de [194.163.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA25615 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rainer.Duffner@konstanz.netsurf.de) Received: from duffner.konstanz.netsurf.de (surf90.konstanz.netsurf.de [194.163.242.90]) by gw1.konstanz.netsurf.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA18149; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:18:50 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:13:51 +0200 (MESZ) From: Rainer M Duffner Subject: Re: What tipped the balance To: Sean Harding cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Organization: enigma, http://www-stud.fh-konstanz.de/~enigma X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.46] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue 28 Jul, Sean Harding wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, David Wolfskill wrote: > > > As for FreeBSD... well, here at work is the only time I've used it. I > > still find PC hardware significantly more challenging than I think any > > hardware has any right to be. > > I can certainly agree with that! At work, I admin Solaris and IRIX > machines...There are, of course, difficulties, but the hardware is really > worth the extra money, IMHO. That depends, IMHO. It's not only the hardware, also the software: price of StarOffice4 for Windows: something around 400 DM price of StarOffice4 for Linux: nought ! zero price of StarOffice4 for Solaris almost 1000 DM As a Solaris-user, I'd really feel, hm, well, you know.... But then, the SGI-machines (and the add-ons) are soo expensive, 1000 DM + or - won't hurt..... ;-) > My only (personal) FreeBSD machine is one > that I built from used parts for under $300...Actually, that's my only If you spend that little on PC-hardware, you can't expect anything. Really. > A little extra $$$ for non-PC hardware is always worth it if you can > afford it. I almost exclusively use SCSI (Drives, CDROM) and fast RAM) this solves many problems and creates new ones (cable-lenght of U-SCSI, termination, external devices...) But the drives have longer MTBFs(x2) and longer warranty(3-5 years+). A better throughput also helps. I make world in just under 4 hours. Sun hardware is IMHO almost unaffordable for non-corporate users. SGI is even worse and there's little software for HP other then RDBMS and some CAD-packages.... The 'little extra' comes out as several 1000 (or 10000) $$$. > Now, we just need to get FreeBSD running on some better hardware, and > we'll be set :-) There's a FreeBSD for Alpha Project (don't know the URL off-hand). If I hadn't bought a PC some time ago, I'd buy an Alpha soon. The performance must be absolutely crazy ! cheers, Rainer -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |Rainer Duffner, E-Mail: duffner@fh-konstanz.de | | & Rainer.Duffner@konstanz.netsurf.de | |Fachhochschule Konstanz, Germany | |"What's a Network ?" - Bill Gates, early 1980s | | WWW:http://www-stud.fh-konstanz.de/~duffner | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 29 04:31:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA05667 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 04:31:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from apache.fe.usp.br (apache.fe.usp.br [143.107.48.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA05658 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 04:31:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbeluci@fe.usp.br) Received: from localhost (mbeluci@localhost) by apache.fe.usp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA03645 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:34:07 -0300 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:34:07 -0300 (EST) From: "Moises Beluci da Silva - LIET/FE - R.9090" To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Jazdrive! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How do I install a jaz drive on a free-bsd system? Please, I need to know step by step about it, ok. Thanks. _____________________________ Moises Beluci da Silva | Analista de Sistemas | Faculdade de Educacao da USP.| Fone 818-3099 Ramal 9090. | ----------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 29 10:07:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04408 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:07:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04401 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:07:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA04855; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:10:42 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: Rainer M Duffner cc: Sean Harding , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Rainer M Duffner wrote: > > My only (personal) FreeBSD machine is one > > that I built from used parts for under $300...Actually, that's my only > > If you spend that little on PC-hardware, you can't expect anything. > Really. I admin PCs at work (along with the Suns, SGIs and Macs). I know what good PC hardware is like. My roomies have better PCs too. They still suck. It is still crappy PC hardware. And my $300 machine has *no* more problems than any of the more expensive ones. It's just slow. And speed isn't what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about overall quality and usability. Everything from the cheapness of 99% of PC cases (yes, even the expensive ones when you put them next to something from a workstation manufacturer) to having to screw around with IRQs and in the bios. I am plenty willing to pay the extra $$$ to have a clean Sun on which I can get an "ok>" prompt, type "boot net - install" and install the *entire* OS from a CD that's in a machine in another room. Try that sort of thing on a PC. At the very least, you'd have to boot from a floppy or CD on the local machine.... > Sun hardware is IMHO almost unaffordable for non-corporate users. > SGI is even worse and there's little software for HP other then RDBMS > and some CAD-packages.... > The 'little extra' comes out as several 1000 (or 10000) $$$. Well, it all depends on what you are doing. When I want to get real work done and have the resources to do so, I skip the PC hardware biz and get something real. When it's for fun or on a low budget, a PC with FreeBSD can't be beat. I'm certainly not suggesting that home users go out and buy a Sun or SGI (though an older Sun or SGI can be had for $1000-2000)...I'm just saying that if you could, it would be worth it IMHO. Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"It's not a habit, it's cool. http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | I feel alive." NeXTMail OK! | --k's Choice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 29 11:12:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18960 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dsinw.com (hamellr@dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18908 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:12:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA15842; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:10:15 -0700 (PDT) From: rick hamell To: Sean Harding cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm talking about here. I'm talking about overall quality and usability. > Everything from the cheapness of 99% of PC cases (yes, even the expensive > ones when you put them next to something from a workstation manufacturer) > to having to screw around with IRQs and in the bios. I am plenty willing You have a point here, though having worked for two companies that specialized in high quality, high reliability PC's, we can come close, of course it's going to cost you. There's a company (one of the two I worked for a while) called Accurate Automations that is run by one of the Core Team members that specializes in FreeBSD based PC systems. It's really the right tool for the right job. I do agree with you though, workstations are nice for the most part, I'd like to have one. :) But, all three of my home computers are built using good quality PC hardware, and by doing so, I've decreased problems with OS's like Windows95, IRQ's are a thing of the past, and FreeBSD runs stable and fast. The hardest part is keeping up on what is good quality this week. Due to the fact that the average home user has been conditioned to think that cheaper is better, a manufactuer will build a good piece of equipment or system for a while the there is a breaking point in their quality control when it reaches a certain production number. I.e, Gateway 2000 was a good computer, when it first came out. DTC Motherboards were good, back in 386 early 486 days. Asus motherboards a good now, if you stay with certain models. AMD chips had a lot of problems in the 486 early pentium series, but I know consider great. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 29 11:19:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21280 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.gorge.net (dns3.gorge.net [205.162.195.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21261 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:19:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ice_cold@cryogen.com) Received: from nickm ([208.14.145.3]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-40184U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA155 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:34:51 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980729111650.007a5350@gorge.net> X-Sender: nickm@gorge.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:16:50 -0700 To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Ice_Cold Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: <199807290316.WAA19705@ins2.netins.net> References: <19980728184830.28204.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For me, I got started on FreeBSD as I started looking at UNIX and a couple varients (FreeBSD wasn't on the list but LINIX was). I surfed to all the sights I could get my hands on and found something strikenly familiar. They all had "Powered by FreeBSD" (or a varient therof) on the bottom of their site. So I started in at freebsd.org and loved their online documentation so I purchased 2.2.6 and have yet to be disapointed. Even my mistakes don't kill my box (unlike all varients of Win/WinNT that I've used...and I've used a lot). *@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@* *@ It's only a mistake if you don't learn from it *@* *@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 29 11:46:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28726 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smok.apk.net (root@mail.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28599 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:46:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.20]) by smok.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1/ts-apk-rel.980722) with ESMTP id OAA18550; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by junior.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA03742; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:45:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: Sean Harding cc: Rainer M Duffner , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Sean Harding wrote: > Everything from the cheapness of 99% of PC cases (yes, even the expensive > ones when you put them next to something from a workstation manufacturer) > to having to screw around with IRQs and in the bios. I am plenty willing > to pay the extra $$$ to have a clean Sun on which I can get an "ok>" > prompt, type "boot net - install" and install the *entire* OS from a CD > that's in a machine in another room. Try that sort of thing on a PC. At > the very least, you'd have to boot from a floppy or CD on the local > machine.... Being able to "boot net" is not a reason for choosing a Sun over a PC. Good PC hardware is actually very reliable. Most people don't know good hardware though. Ever looked at the IBM PC Server series? They're rated by IBM to handle Solaris x86 or SCO. And the hardware quality is quite good. > Well, it all depends on what you are doing. When I want to get real work > done and have the resources to do so, I skip the PC hardware biz and get > something real. When it's for fun or on a low budget, a PC with FreeBSD > can't be beat. You can get plenty of work done on a PC running FreeBSD. > I'm certainly not suggesting that home users go out and buy a Sun or SGI > (though an older Sun or SGI can be had for $1000-2000)...I'm just saying > that if you could, it would be worth it IMHO. I work for a Sun VAR and I say you're just a hardware bigot. There are times when a Sun is better and times it isn't. A PC running FreeBSD with a good video card is snappier than an Ultra2 with 2 200 MHz processors and a Creator 3D card for many tasks. I've tried it. On the other hand, load the PC down to where it runs into bus limits and the Sun walks away from it. -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 29 12:02:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02947 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:02:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02775 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:02:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA05306; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:05:27 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: Stuart Krivis cc: Sean Harding , Rainer M Duffner , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Stuart Krivis wrote: > Being able to "boot net" is not a reason for choosing a Sun over a PC. You wanna bet? How many machines do you deal with? Anything like JumpStart for PCs? If you want to figure out how to efficiently install a new OS on many machines with FreeBSD and PC hardware, let me know. And besides, this was just an example. And example of how the software and hardware in workstations are infinitely better integrated and implemented than anything in the PC world. > You can get plenty of work done on a PC running FreeBSD. Yes, but it takes more time to get there. Especially for someone who has to admin lots of machines. > I work for a Sun VAR and I say you're just a hardware bigot. There are > times when a Sun is better and times it isn't. Ok, I'm a Sun bigot. That's why I mentioned SGI and even Macs as being in the same class. I just have been using Sun as an example because we have lots of them here, and people know Sun. I can talk HP, IBM, Digital, SGI, and Apple too if that would make you happier. You seem to really be missing most of my points. First of all, I *never* brought speed or "snappiness" into the discussion (which, BTW, is a poor measure of performance. I like windows to open quickly, but I'd rather have my renders and compiles get done a little sooner or my web server perform better). Someone else brought that up. My entire point was that workstation hardware (*not* software) is easier to set up and deal with than PCs. If you can reasonably argue with that, I'll be very impressed. Everyone is trying to show me performance stats to dispute my argument. The fact is, I never said I *cared* about that. For me, it's a matter of getting my job done. A lot of that is getting and keeping the machines up and running. And that generally takes a lot less effort when it is a workstation rather than a PC. Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"It's not a habit, it's cool. http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | I feel alive." NeXTMail OK! | --k's Choice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 29 17:44:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15553 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:44:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www08.netaddress.usa.net (www08.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15535 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:44:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gekk0@usa.net) Received: (qmail 11458 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jul 1998 00:43:30 -0000 Message-ID: <19980730004330.11457.qmail@www08.netaddress.usa.net> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:43:30 From: gekk0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What doyou use your box for? (was: what tipped the scale] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, What do you consider "real work"? I'm just curious as to what other people use thier machines for. I'd love to have a sparc at home, but I'll have to be happing running Solaris 2.6, HP-UX 10.20, some version of AIX at work, and FreeBSD at home. hrm...now if I can just get them to port our app to fbsd, all will be cool :) > > Well, it all depends on what you are doing. When I want to get real work > done and have the resources to do so, I skip the PC hardware biz and get > something real. When it's for fun or on a low budget, a PC with FreeBSD > can't be beat. > ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 29 18:32:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15553 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:44:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www08.netaddress.usa.net (www08.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15535 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:44:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gekk0@usa.net) Received: (qmail 11458 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jul 1998 00:43:30 -0000 Message-ID: <19980730004330.11457.qmail@www08.netaddress.usa.net> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:43:30 From: gekk0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What doyou use your box for? (was: what tipped the scale] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, What do you consider "real work"? I'm just curious as to what other people use thier machines for. I'd love to have a sparc at home, but I'll have to be happing running Solaris 2.6, HP-UX 10.20, some version of AIX at work, and FreeBSD at home. hrm...now if I can just get them to port our app to fbsd, all will be cool :) > > Well, it all depends on what you are doing. When I want to get real work > done and have the resources to do so, I skip the PC hardware biz and get > something real. When it's for fun or on a low budget, a PC with FreeBSD > can't be beat. > ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 30 09:58:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20699 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:58:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA20682 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA16831 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:37:05 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199807301537.IAA16831@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What doyou use your box for? (was: what tipped the scale] In-Reply-To: <19980730004330.11457.qmail@www08.netaddress.usa.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:43:30 >From: gekk0 >What do you consider "real work"? It depends on why you obtained a (set of) computer(s) in the first place. >I'm just curious as to what other people use thier machines for. At home? Mail; some news-reading. House-remodeling plans (with xfig). Writing letters (groff, with some custom macros that I wrote). Web browsing. Eventually, I hope to get HylaFAX running. Oh, yeah -- a bit of scanning, now that we bought a scanner. Main reason for buying the home machine(s), though, was for my professional education -- bought my first machine back when I was still in the IBM mainframe world, and there's no way the companies I worked for would be encouraging much use of my time to learn UNIX (though one of them did want to make use of that knowledge later...), and there's no way I could afford to try to take a job in a UNIX environment, since I had no experience in said environment. So I also bring over freely-redistributable software & build it. I try to provide feedback to authors, though that's getting progressively harder (because of a lack of time on my part). I cobble up Perl scripts.... :-} Hardly write any more C.... And part of the email stuff is professional contacts; that's fairly critical. Here (at work), it depends on which machine -- some are desktops; there's a machine dedicated to maintaining the Whistle copy of the CVS repository (some of the folks who contribute to FreeBSD are some of the engineers I support). There's a dedicated news server; a dedicated NIS server.... But the whole assembly is for doing software development, primarily (which helps explain why there's a dedicated machine for doing "builds"). >I'd love to have a sparc at home, but I'll have to be happing running Solaris 2.6, HP-UX 10.20, some version of AIX at work, and FreeBSD at home. >hrm...now if I can just get them to port our app to fbsd, all will be cool :) :-) I still find it interesting that I'm using Solaris & SunOS at home, and FreeBSD (with a tiny bit of Solaris) at work.... Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 30 10:00:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21429 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hotmail.com (f252.hotmail.com [207.82.251.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA21417 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from neutrino2000@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 6908 invoked by uid 0); 30 Jul 1998 16:53:20 -0000 Message-ID: <19980730165320.6907.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 128.115.47.39 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:53:19 PDT X-Originating-IP: [128.115.47.39] From: "Neutrino Phantom" To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:53:19 PDT Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:05:27 -0700 Sean Harding wrote: >Everyone is trying to show me performance stats to dispute my argument. >The fact is, I never said I *cared* about that. For me, it's a matter of >getting my job done. A lot of that is getting and keeping the machines up >and running. And that generally takes a lot less effort when it is a >workstation rather than a PC. As an administrator, _you_ might not care about performance, but the people you're supposed to be working for do. I'm using a Sun IPC at work, which is slow as hell compared to my dual P-Pro 200 desktop and my Pentium II 266 laptop. Come on, the Sun is slow compared to my girlfriend's 486 running Win95!! It's rather hard for me to get work done on the Sun, despite the fact that it's never crashed and has been nicely running as part of the network for quite some time. You may argue that I'm comparing archaic Suns with fairly new PC's, but that's the way it works when Suns are so expensive. If the government can't afford more than a few Ultras, how can the home user? **** "Do people want fire that can be fitted nasally?" -HHGTTG **** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 30 15:35:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09813 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09807 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:35:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15002; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:58:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980730075832.25906@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:58:32 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Sean Harding , Stuart Krivis Cc: Rainer M Duffner , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What tipped the balance Reply-To: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Sean Harding on Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 12:05:27PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 12:05:27PM -0700, Sean Harding wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Stuart Krivis wrote: > > Being able to "boot net" is not a reason for choosing a Sun over a PC. > > You wanna bet? How many machines do you deal with? Anything like JumpStart > for PCs? If you want to figure out how to efficiently install a new OS on > many machines with FreeBSD and PC hardware, let me know. [Note: This is in theory, I may have got a couple of steps slightly wrong, but this is roughly how you'd do it. This is also off topic (IMHO) for -newbies -- I'm answering it there because that's where the topic came up, but I've set reply-to back to me.] 1. Put the FreeBSD source code somewhere handy, like a local NFS or FTP server. 2. Make a customised boot.flp. In particular, you want to replace the supplied install.cfg (for a sample, look in /usr/src/release/sysinstall) with one that will do the installation without prompting. 3. Clone this boot.flp onto as many other floppies as you want. 4. Boot your machines from these floppies, and watch them automatically download and install FreeBSD for you. Optionally, they can even automatically install packages as well. That assumes that the hardware on your machines (in particular, the disk geometries) is sufficiently similar that you can encapsulate it in one copy of install.cfg. If you've got different classes of machine then obviously you'll need different classes of install.cfg. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 31 05:15:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16756 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from apache.fe.usp.br (apache.fe.usp.br [143.107.48.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA16748 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbeluci@fe.usp.br) Received: from localhost (mbeluci@localhost) by apache.fe.usp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07563; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:17:38 -0300 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:17:38 -0300 (EST) From: "Moises Beluci da Silva - LIET/FE - R.9090" To: c5666305 cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jazdrive! In-Reply-To: <199807300645.OAA22353@cssolar85.COMP.HKP.HK> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Clarence, thank you for information!!! In second step I have a problem: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/rsd1 dd: /dev/rsd1: Permission denied 1+0 records in 0+0 records out 0 bytes transferred in 0.003988 secs (0 bytes/sec) # Jul 31 08:56:29 apache /kernel: sd1(ahc0:4:0): DATA PROTECT asc:27,0 Write protected Jul 31 08:56:29 apache /kernel: sd1(ahc0:4:0): DATA PROTECT asc:27,0 Write protected What do you think about it? Thank you again. _____________________________ Moises Beluci da Silva | Analista de Sistemas | Faculdade de Educacao da USP.| Fone 818-3099 Ramal 9090. | ----------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 31 19:30:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15890 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15881 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA11449 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:30:09 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:30:09 +1000 (EST) From: Sue Blake Message-Id: <199808010230.MAA11449@phoenix.welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (Last updated 18 July 1998) This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources:charters.html) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "subscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org appears on the mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Aug 1 18:40:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14968 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:40:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.devco.ca ([199.126.248.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14958 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:40:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from teck@devco.ca) Received: from dww.devco.ca ([199.126.248.191]) by www.devco.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA15993 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:00:09 -0300 (ADT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980701222013.007c1c50@devco.ca> X-Sender: teck@devco.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 22:20:13 -0300 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: DJ MacDonald Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Aug 1 18:57:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16439 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16432 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:57:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA09439 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:57:02 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199808020157.NAA09439@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:57:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Why is it so hard to find information? Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is anyone else finding it difficult to find information? For example, I went to install apache today. I had to search the mailing list archives to find a list of steps to follow in order to install it. That's great! But then apache reports that I must have DES first. Not a problem. But I've just spend two hours trying to find instructions on how to install DES. I've found nothing. It's so frustrating! I can't be the only one that finds this difficult to the extreme of frustration. I can follow instructions. If only the instructions are there to be found. arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh! I'm off for a bike ride. This is too much. -- Dan Langille DVL Software Limited http://www.dvl-software.com/freebsd : my [mis]adventures To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Aug 1 19:31:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20228 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:31:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20221 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA09540; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:01:16 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA21369; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:01:14 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980802120114.W11960@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:01:14 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is it so hard to find information? References: <199808020157.NAA09439@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808020157.NAA09439@cyclops.xtra.co.nz>; from Dan Langille on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 01:57:01PM +1200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 13:57:01 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > Is anyone else finding it difficult to find information? > > For example, I went to install apache today. I had to search the mailing > list archives to find a list of steps to follow in order to install it. > That's great! > > But then apache reports that I must have DES first. Not a problem. But > I've just spend two hours trying to find instructions on how to install > DES. I've found nothing. It's so frustrating! > > I can't be the only one that finds this difficult to the extreme of > frustration. I can follow instructions. If only the instructions are > there to be found. If it makes you feel any better, I find the Apache documentation a *real pain*. IMO it's a good example of how HTML is used to produce something worse than what we had before. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message