From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Oct 19 01:06:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02775 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 01:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02767 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 01:06:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA02527; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:06:05 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:06:00 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: upgrading notes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You'll be hearing that a new version of FreeBSD is coming out. Here's some cautionary notes, presented with no authority other than that I was an observant newbie here when the last version came out, and the previous, and the version before that, and I hate the smell of burning flesh My suggestions for newbies are: - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. - Don't bother upgrading unless you have a reason to. Many people are running older versions just fine (2.2.2 here). - Back up well before upgrading, especially /etc. - Read all of the available documentation for the new release. There's a lot of *.TXT files on the FTP site, all worthwhile. - Search the freebsd-questions archives for other people's upgrading problems and their solutions. - There are a few different approaches to upgrading. If you don't know what they are, check out the handbook or ask FreeBSD-questions if you're still stuck. - Upgrading FreeBSD is not an "upgrade" in the microsoft sense. Expect a bit of careful manual work and heaps of reading. - No, you can't just upgrade the kernel!! Linux is a kernel with add-on operating system bits (the distribution); FreeBSD is an integrated system that won't work piecemeal. Upgrade kernel and binaries together, by following the instructions. - Generally newbies will be running a FreeBSD-RELEASE version, never -CURRENT and almost never -STABLE. The last two have their own mailing lists and list membership is a prerequisite. We don't deal with them here, or any other place. See handbook. - If you don't like being told not to take risks, that's fine. Other newbies have businesses that depend on their systems so allow them to choose too. Try not to confuse them with reports of your risky experiments. - If you have any problems at any stage, *always* send them to freebsd-questions (not here). The people in -questions will give you reliable answers (usually), your questions and their answers will be archived where the next person can find them before it's too late, and the people who care about what problems people have (developers, doc writers) will see them. Do these suggestions sound useful? reasonable? Got anything to add? Should we repost something like this when each new version comes out? Last time I tried something like this I got a huge stack of rotten fruit hurled at me, and it's making fine compost now. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Oct 19 01:31:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05323 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 01:31:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.x-link.ml.org (ns2.x-link.ml.org [163.195.1.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05318 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 01:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from croftonc@PARACHUTE.WCAPE.GOV.ZA) Received: from wcpes.x-link.ml.org (wcpes.x-link.ml.org [163.195.20.11]) by ns2.x-link.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03940 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:09:00 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from croftonc@PARACHUTE.WCAPE.GOV.ZA) Received: from PARACHUTE.WCAPE.GOV.ZA (ccswc-ops.wcape.gov.za [164.151.102.250]) by wcpes.x-link.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08488 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:29:51 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199810190829.KAA08488@wcpes.x-link.ml.org> Received: from PARACHUTE/SpoolDir by PARACHUTE.WCAPE.GOV.ZA (Mercury 1.21); 19 Oct 98 03:26:26 +0200 Received: from SpoolDir by PARACHUTE (Mercury 1.21); 19 Oct 98 03:23:08 +0200 From: "CHARL" Organization: CCS WESTERN CAPE To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 03:23:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: (Fwd) upgrading notes X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi There..... Sue........sounds just fine. In fact a BSD ghuru here at my work said the same to me.So thanks again . Cheers ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:06:00 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: upgrading notes You'll be hearing that a new version of FreeBSD is coming out. Here's some cautionary notes, presented with no authority other than that I was an observant newbie here when the last version came out, and the previous, and the version before that, and I hate the smell of burning flesh My suggestions for newbies are: - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. - Don't bother upgrading unless you have a reason to. Many people are running older versions just fine (2.2.2 here). - Back up well before upgrading, especially /etc. - Read all of the available documentation for the new release. There's a lot of *.TXT files on the FTP site, all worthwhile. - Search the freebsd-questions archives for other people's upgrading problems and their solutions. - There are a few different approaches to upgrading. If you don't know what they are, check out the handbook or ask FreeBSD-questions if you're still stuck. - Upgrading FreeBSD is not an "upgrade" in the microsoft sense. Expect a bit of careful manual work and heaps of reading. - No, you can't just upgrade the kernel!! Linux is a kernel with add-on operating system bits (the distribution); FreeBSD is an integrated system that won't work piecemeal. Upgrade kernel and binaries together, by following the instructions. - Generally newbies will be running a FreeBSD-RELEASE version, never -CURRENT and almost never -STABLE. The last two have their own mailing lists and list membership is a prerequisite. We don't deal with them here, or any other place. See handbook. - If you don't like being told not to take risks, that's fine. Other newbies have businesses that depend on their systems so allow them to choose too. Try not to confuse them with reports of your risky experiments. - If you have any problems at any stage, *always* send them to freebsd-questions (not here). The people in -questions will give you reliable answers (usually), your questions and their answers will be archived where the next person can find them before it's too late, and the people who care about what problems people have (developers, doc writers) will see them. Do these suggestions sound useful? reasonable? Got anything to add? Should we repost something like this when each new version comes out? Last time I tried something like this I got a huge stack of rotten fruit hurled at me, and it's making fine compost now. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message CHARL CROFTON Central Computer Services - Govnet Western Cape South Africa Mail: croftonc@parachute.wcape.gov.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Oct 19 05:52:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01426 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 05:52:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp2.jps.net (smtp2.jps.net [209.63.224.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA01421 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 05:52:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hpollard@jps.net) Received: from jps.net (208-235-93-80.jfk.jps.net [208.235.93.80]) by smtp2.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA18720; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 05:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <362B35E0.F792DD4C@jps.net> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:51:45 -0400 From: Herbert M Pollard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I just read your post about upgrading to the new release. I think your advice is very common since based; but as at time people need reminding. IMHO you have my vote for posting this notice with each new release. You don't know how many butts you saved with this wake up call. Herb Pollard Sue Blake wrote: > You'll be hearing that a new version of FreeBSD is coming out. > Here's some cautionary notes, presented with no authority other than > that I was an observant newbie here when the last version came out, > and the previous, and the version before that, and I hate the smell > of burning flesh > > My suggestions for newbies are: > > - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. > Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. > - Don't bother upgrading unless you have a reason to. Many people > are running older versions just fine (2.2.2 here). > - Back up well before upgrading, especially /etc. > - Read all of the available documentation for the new release. > There's a lot of *.TXT files on the FTP site, all worthwhile. > - Search the freebsd-questions archives for other people's > upgrading problems and their solutions. > - There are a few different approaches to upgrading. If you don't > know what they are, check out the handbook or ask FreeBSD-questions > if you're still stuck. > - Upgrading FreeBSD is not an "upgrade" in the microsoft sense. > Expect a bit of careful manual work and heaps of reading. > - No, you can't just upgrade the kernel!! Linux is a kernel with add-on > operating system bits (the distribution); FreeBSD is an integrated > system that won't work piecemeal. Upgrade kernel and binaries > together, by following the instructions. > - Generally newbies will be running a FreeBSD-RELEASE version, > never -CURRENT and almost never -STABLE. The last two have > their own mailing lists and list membership is a prerequisite. > We don't deal with them here, or any other place. See handbook. > - If you don't like being told not to take risks, that's fine. > Other newbies have businesses that depend on their systems > so allow them to choose too. Try not to confuse them with reports > of your risky experiments. > - If you have any problems at any stage, *always* send them > to freebsd-questions (not here). The people in -questions > will give you reliable answers (usually), your questions > and their answers will be archived where the next person can > find them before it's too late, and the people who care about > what problems people have (developers, doc writers) will see them. > > Do these suggestions sound useful? reasonable? Got anything to add? > Should we repost something like this when each new version comes out? > Last time I tried something like this I got a huge stack of rotten > fruit hurled at me, and it's making fine compost now. > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Oct 19 06:51:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07044 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 06:51:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gandhi.roma ([128.58.111.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA06962 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 06:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smendoza@juriscompint.com) Received: from juriscompint.com ([128.58.111.30]) by gandhi.roma (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with ESMTP id 179; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:06:13 -0400 Message-ID: <3627D4D7.FE793773@juriscompint.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:20:55 -0400 From: "Simon Mendoza" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LAPP Administrator Root CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Saludos y ayuda References: <3627644A.A6ADC21A@olflex.com.mx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org LAPP Administrator Root wrote: > Hola! soy Arturo Mondragon radico en Guadalajara, Jalisco hace 1 mes que > instalaron en un servidor de la empresa el FreeBSD 2.2.6 y estoy > aprendiendo a manejarlo, tengo poca experiencia en sistemas UNIX pero me > intersa mucho aprender a dominar esta herramienta, les pido que por > favor me manden la informacion que requiero dominar para empezar a > administrar este sistema (la configuracion que esta funcionando en este > momento es: Un servidor HP, con 13 estaciones de trabajo en red, todos > los usuarios navegan, mandan y reciben correo electronico interno y > externo por un solo modem conectado al servidor, todos los usuarios > mandan sus faxes desde otro modem tambien conectado al servisor, se > maneja cinta de respaldo HP, CDROM y compartimos Archivos.) > > Sin mas por el momento les agradesco su atencion y les mando un gran > saludo. > > Arturo M. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message Hola Arturo: Bievenido al mundo FreeBSD, si quieres tener mas informacion en espaņol te recomiendo visites primero lo siguiente: http://www.es.freebsd.org/es/ Si tienes preguntas mas especificas y mi modesta ayuda puede servir de algo escribeme a mi correo y si es algo mas especifico y que escapa a mi conocimiento y tienes problemas con el ingles te puedo ayudar a postearlo en freebsd-question@freebsd.org, si no tienes problemas con tu ingles puedes postearles directamente. Saludos Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Oct 19 10:41:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27859 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:41:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt053nb4.san.rr.com (dt053nb4.san.rr.com [204.210.34.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27847 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:41:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt053nb4.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19433 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Message-ID: <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:41:23 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE-1015 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: Overall I think this is right on, just a few comments. > My suggestions for newbies are: > > - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. > Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. I would extend this to say, "Never install a FreeBSD -RELEASE." I don't remember the last time a -Release didn't create a bunch of errors due to last minute cramming in of things. Watch the -Stable mailing list (for 2.2.x) and wait for things to calm down a bit after the -Release and then install the latest -Stable. > - Don't bother upgrading unless you have a reason to. Many people > are running older versions just fine (2.2.2 here). 2.2.2 is easily the worst release of FreeBSD on the 2.2 branch. There are lots of reasons to upgrade, not the least of which is that if you're not up to date you won't be able to use the latest ports. There have been a few very serious changes in the ports tree in the last month or so that require an up to date system. There are also a lot of security and performance improvements in more recent versions. The 2.2 tree is extremely stable right now. That will be less true when people start getting ready for the 2.2.8-Release. > Other newbies have businesses that depend on their systems > so allow them to choose too. Try not to confuse them with reports > of your risky experiments. If this list is for new users to discuss their experiences, that's what it has to be for. > - If you have any problems at any stage, *always* send them > to freebsd-questions (not here). The people in -questions > will give you reliable answers (usually), your questions > and their answers will be archived where the next person can > find them before it's too late, All FreeBSD mailing lists are archived, including -newbies. Good luck, Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** Go PADRES! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Oct 19 12:32:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10554 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:32:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hera.webcom.com (hera.webcom.com [209.1.28.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10549 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:32:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from graeme@echidna.com) Received: from kigal.webcom.com (kigal.webcom.com [209.1.28.57]) by hera.webcom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA13343; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:32:22 -0700 Received: from [199.183.207.37] by inanna.webcom.com (WebCom SMTP 1.2.1) with SMTP id 4728905; Mon Oct 19 12:30 PDT 1998 Message-Id: <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:28:48 -0700 From: Graeme Tait Organization: Echidna X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Studded Cc: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Studded wrote: > > Sue Blake wrote: > > Overall I think this is right on, just a few comments. > > > My suggestions for newbies are: > > > > - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. > > Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. > > I would extend this to say, "Never install a FreeBSD -RELEASE." I don't > remember the last time a -Release didn't create a bunch of errors due to > last minute cramming in of things. Watch the -Stable mailing list (for > 2.2.x) and wait for things to calm down a bit after the -Release and > then install the latest -Stable. Well, this business of FreeBSD versions certainly is confusing for this newbie. My understanding is that what gets issued with Greg Lehey's book is -RELEASE (mine being 2.2.6R). So are you saying, don't use the CD-ROMs you get with the book??? Actually, are any of the CD-ROMs from Walnut Creek other than -RELEASE versions? You are certainly right about errors in -RELEASE in my case. I spent ages trying to get an install off a Sony CD-ROM drive. The system concerned (an old 486 bought at auction) is flaky and contains off-brand interfaces, etc., and I thought it was my hardware. For this reason, I didn't want to trouble people with dumb questions about my problem. Finally I used a SCSI CD-ROM and all was well. It was only much later that I accidentally discovered on the web site a notice saying that the boot floppy image for 2.2.6R was broken with respect to the Sony CD-ROM support, and all I had to do was download a new boot image. Of course, I probably should have tried to find and read the release notes (or whatever it was) first, but as a newbie on a first install, there was so much information saturation that I just wanted to put on the blinkers and forge ahead. It seems to me that from a configuration control point of view, any final changes to a version to become a release should be necessary bug fixes ONLY, and that ideally the version concerned should be not be labelled a "release" until it had survived a decent period of real-world use with ZERO changes. After all, it's going to be out there for some reasonable time period cast in poycarbonate. Those who want the latest and greatest can always download it in advance of the CD-ROMs being issued. -- Graeme Tait - Echidna To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Oct 19 19:12:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22960 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:12:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22952 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:12:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA10756; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:42:10 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA00824; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:42:06 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981020114206.I433@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:42:06 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Graeme Tait , Studded Cc: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com>; from Graeme Tait on Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:28:48PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 October 1998 at 15:28:48 -0700, Graeme Tait wrote: > Studded wrote: >> >> Sue Blake wrote: >> >> Overall I think this is right on, just a few comments. >> >>> My suggestions for newbies are: >>> >>> - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. >>> Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. >> >> I would extend this to say, "Never install a FreeBSD -RELEASE." I don't >> remember the last time a -Release didn't create a bunch of errors due to >> last minute cramming in of things. Watch the -Stable mailing list (for >> 2.2.x) and wait for things to calm down a bit after the -Release and >> then install the latest -Stable. > > Well, this business of FreeBSD versions certainly is confusing for > this newbie. My understanding is that what gets issued with Greg > Lehey's book is -RELEASE (mine being 2.2.6R). > > So are you saying, don't use the CD-ROMs you get with the book??? He appears to be. I certainly don't agree. > Actually, are any of the CD-ROMs from Walnut Creek other than > -RELEASE versions? Yes, you can get snapshots. By definition they're less stable than -RELEASE. You can't get -STABLE, because it's a continual business: there are updates to -STABLE every day. > You are certainly right about errors in -RELEASE in my case. I spent > ages trying to get an install off a Sony CD-ROM drive. The system > concerned (an old 486 bought at auction) is flaky and contains > off-brand interfaces, etc., and I thought it was my hardware. For > this reason, I didn't want to trouble people with dumb questions > about my problem. Finally I used a SCSI CD-ROM and all was well. It > was only much later that I accidentally discovered on the web site a > notice saying that the boot floppy image for 2.2.6R was broken with > respect to the Sony CD-ROM support, and all I had to do was download > a new boot image. Of course, I probably should have tried to find > and read the release notes (or whatever it was) first, but as a > newbie on a first install, there was so much information saturation > that I just wanted to put on the blinkers and forge ahead. Correct, you should have read the release notes and the errata. But any release of any software is going to have bugs in it. > It seems to me that from a configuration control point of view, any > final changes to a version to become a release should be necessary > bug fixes ONLY, and that ideally the version concerned should be not > be labelled a "release" until it had survived a decent period of > real-world use with ZERO changes. Any software which has survived a decent period of real-world use with ZERO changes is out of date :-) > After all, it's going to be out there for some reasonable time > period cast in poycarbonate. Those who want the latest and greatest > can always download it in advance of the CD-ROMs being issued. Well, we *do* test software before we issue it. But testing can only prove the presence of bugs, never their absence. When we release the software, many times the number of people start using it, and they have many times the diversity of hardware on their machines (including a significant proportion of old hardware which none of the developers use). As a result, after the release we find bugs which we haven't seen before. These get fixed, but they're still on the CDs. I should point out that these cases are exceptions. For 99% of users, the software just installs without a hitch. For 1%, they can be a real pain. Getting back to the suggestion that Doug ("Studded") made: as I said, I disagree. Install the -RELEASE, it's the easiest way to go, and it works for just about everybody. If you're one of the 1%, or you're really concerned about absolute stability, track -STABLE. This is an ongoing occupation, and for service providers it almost automatically entails more down time (reboots) than running -RELEASE. The only difference is that you get to choose your downtime. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Oct 19 23:02:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11032 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:02:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt053nb4.san.rr.com (dt053nb4.san.rr.com [204.210.34.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11026 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:02:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt053nb4.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27833; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:02:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Message-ID: <362C2758.FE167AE8@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:02:00 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE-1015 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graeme Tait CC: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Graeme Tait wrote: [some snipping] > Studded wrote: > > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > Overall I think this is right on, just a few comments. > > > > > My suggestions for newbies are: > > > > > > - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. > > > Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. > > > > I would extend this to say, "Never install a FreeBSD -RELEASE." I don't > > remember the last time a -Release didn't create a bunch of errors due to > > last minute cramming in of things. Watch the -Stable mailing list (for > > 2.2.x) and wait for things to calm down a bit after the -Release and > > then install the latest -Stable. > > Well, this business of FreeBSD versions certainly is confusing for this newbie. It's confusing to a lot of people, don't feel bad. :) Think of the 2.2 branch as a string. There are always people tying things on at one end of the string, changing some of the strands, etc. The "new" end of the string is what we call 2.2-Stable. If you use cvsup to download -Stable (which cvs thinks of as the "RELENG_2_2" branch) you get the latest bits at the end of the string. Usually this is safe because the nature of the -Stable branch is that *usually* only safe things are added to it. There is a similar string for -Current whose ends are always frayed and patched... don't go there. :) What happens during a -RELEASE is like someone coming along with a sharpie and putting a dot on the string at a certain point. That point in time on the RELENG_2_2 branch then becomes what we know as 2.2.x-RELEASE, but the string keeps moving on. So, one moment before the -Release you have 2.2.6-Stable, then a tag is applied to cvs which makes it 2.2.7-RELEASE, then a moment after that (figuratively) it turns into 2.2.7-Stable, and people start fixing things up again. The problem (in my mind) occurs in the weeks right before a -Release when people start stuffing things in at the last minute so they make it into the release. These changes are often not properly tested, and/or not properly tested together, so the code base that becomes the release ends up with breakage. > My > understanding is that what gets issued with Greg Lehey's book is -RELEASE (mine > being 2.2.6R). > > So are you saying, don't use the CD-ROMs you get with the book??? No, YOU are saying that. :) The CD's have a very valuable place, and I use them myself, especially when installing a new system. However my comments were aimed specifically at sue's text regarding not upgrading to a new -release right away. If you're going to do an upgrade from the net anyway, in my experience the two weeks before through the two weeks after a release are the worst times to upgrade. You're much better off subscribing to freebsd-stable and waiting till the shouting dies down after a release. > You are certainly right about errors in -RELEASE in my case. I spent ages trying to > get an install off a Sony CD-ROM drive. I lost a customer due to the 2.2.6 release, so I can sympathize with you fully. :) > It seems to me that from a configuration control point of view, any final changes > to a version to become a release should be necessary bug fixes ONLY, and that > ideally the version concerned should be not be labelled a "release" until it had > survived a decent period of real-world use with ZERO changes. After all, it's going > to be out there for some reasonable time period cast in poycarbonate. Those who > want the latest and greatest can always download it in advance of the CD-ROMs being > issued. I couldn't agree more. I'm fighting hard to keep 2.2.8-Release as effectively exactly what is now 2.2.7-Stable with only the most crucial fixes added. It would be nice to have one flawless release on the 2.2 branch, especially since 2.2.8 is supposed to be the last. I keep hoping that the lessons of the past will be learned from instead of repeated, but the extent to which I'm willing to continue to beat my head against that wall is reducing over time. I hope that this makes things more clear, Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** Go PADRES! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Oct 20 00:43:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18553 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18547; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA07234; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:42:58 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19981020174250.34448@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:42:50 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com>; from Graeme Tait on Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:28:48PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:28:48PM -0700, Graeme Tait wrote: > Studded wrote: > > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > My suggestions for newbies are: > > > > > > - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. > > > Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. > > > > I would extend this to say, "Never install a FreeBSD -RELEASE." I don't > > remember the last time a -Release didn't create a bunch of errors due to > > last minute cramming in of things. Watch the -Stable mailing list (for > > 2.2.x) and wait for things to calm down a bit after the -Release and > > then install the latest -Stable. > > > Well, this business of FreeBSD versions certainly is confusing for this newbie. My > understanding is that what gets issued with Greg Lehey's book is -RELEASE (mine > being 2.2.6R). That's part of the confusion I suggested was avoidable by using -questions if doing non-standard things. And it's another damn good reason for having discussions with the experts held in the place where experts hang out to help, freebsd-questions. There they present opinions which are open to review by their peers. Any difference of opinion is clarified quickly in that exposed forum, at any level. In -newbies we have no frame of reference and every talker is a god. I was recommending, only from what I've been told as a newbie, that in general -RELEASE is what newbies should be looking at unless there's a strong reason to do otherwise. It was only a guess. Now we have a learned view that newbies should never deal with a -RELEASE but should consider that their last option, after -STABLE and -CURRENT. (Personally I can't understand what goes on in freebsd-stable let alone freebsd-current but I'm just thick). There are probably good reasons on all sides, but who cares. We need square one, not squares 1 to 53. OK, assembled learned helpers, sort it out for yourselves where you can see each other, and put your final recommendation for what branch newbies should be on into the handbook, if it's that important. We got plenty to confuse ourselves with already without weighing up the big fish in our pond. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Oct 20 01:19:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21071 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA21066 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:19:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhenry@grey.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au) Message-Id: <199810200819.BAA21066@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: upgrading notes To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:18:29 +1000 (EST) From: "Michael Henry" In-Reply-To: <19981020174250.34448@welearn.com.au> from "Sue Blake" at Oct 20, 98 05:42:50 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I was recommending, only from what I've been told as a newbie, that in > general -RELEASE is what newbies should be looking at unless there's a > strong reason to do otherwise. It was only a guess. Now we have a > learned view that newbies should never deal with a -RELEASE but should > consider that their last option, after -STABLE and -CURRENT. -CURRENT ahead of -RELEASE? It seems obvious to me that the best release for a newbie is the one with the least amount of bugs, and the most documentation. If my understanding of -CURRENT is correct, it ranks last in both these areas. In fact, I seem to recall a chapter from the handbook titled: "Who needs FreeBSD-current?" Which states that the audience for -CURRENT is 1. Members of the FreeBSD group who are actively working on some part of the source tree and for whom keeping `current' is an absolute requirement. 2. Members of the FreeBSD group who are active testers, willing to spend time working through problems in order to ensure that FreeBSD-current remains as sane as possible. These are also people who wish to make topical suggestions on changes and the general direction of FreeBSD. 3. Peripheral members of the FreeBSD (or some other) group who merely wish to keep an eye on things and use the current sources for reference purposes (e.g. for reading, not running). These people also make the occasional comment or contribute code. Hardly seems newbie stuff to me! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Oct 20 02:01:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24239 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 02:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA24233 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 02:01:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id TAA07463; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:00:36 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19981020190030.28983@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:00:30 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Michael Henry Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981020174250.34448@welearn.com.au> <199810200819.BAA21066@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199810200819.BAA21066@hub.freebsd.org>; from Michael Henry on Tue, Oct 20, 1998 at 06:18:29PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 20, 1998 at 06:18:29PM +1000, Michael Henry wrote: > > Hardly seems newbie stuff to me! That's why I readdressed it to -questions, where any replies would have stayed by default. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Oct 20 04:54:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07887 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pnotes1.polar.on.ca (dns.polar.on.ca [199.212.22.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA07876 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ow@polar.on.ca) Received: by pnotes1.polar.on.ca(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.2 (600.1 3-26-1998)) id 852566A3.00419297 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:56:13 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: POLARCOMPUTE From: "Oliver Wilcock" To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <852566A3.004149CF.00@pnotes1.polar.on.ca> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:57:26 -0400 Subject: How can I un-newfs? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is there a way to reverse the newfs process. I know the data I need must still be on the slice because the newfs was so much faster than the fsck. It couldn't have wiped my /usr partition completely clean in a few seconds, could it? I'm pretty desparate. I have no backup since May. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. Oliver To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Oct 20 09:50:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07176 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:50:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07170 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:50:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA29001; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:49:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:49:20 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199810201649.JAA29001@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, ow@polar.on.ca Subject: Re: How can I un-newfs? In-Reply-To: <852566A3.004149CF.00@pnotes1.polar.on.ca> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From: "Oliver Wilcock" >Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:57:26 -0400 > Is there a way to reverse the newfs process. I know the data I need >must still be on the slice because the newfs was so much faster than the >fsck. I'm sorry; that conclusion is not supported by yoru observations. fsck needs to look at lots of things, and its time will depend (among other things) on the sheer number of files stored on the filesystem). newfs, by its nature, depends nearly completely on the saize of the filesystem to determine how long it will run, and has no dependency on the files (if nay) that might be (or have been) stored there. >It couldn't have wiped my /usr partition completely clean in a few >seconds, could it? Since what it was doing was changing the pointers to the data (vs. the data themselves), I fully expect that it could. > I'm pretty desparate. I have no backup since May. Stupid, stupid, >stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. Sorry. Maybe someone with a better combination of insight & brilliance than I have will be able to give you a less unpleasant answer. david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Oct 20 14:26:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05360 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt053nb4.san.rr.com (dt053nb4.san.rr.com [204.210.34.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05342 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt053nb4.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04957 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:26:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Message-ID: <362CFFEA.328A17E9@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:26:02 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE-1015 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> <19981020174250.34448@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Removing a discussion from its originating environment does a disservice to both the "new" list (because they are asked to comment on something that they don't have a context for) and the "old" list (because the members of that list might not see the responses). Therefore I'm sending this back to -newbies. Sue Blake wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:28:48PM -0700, Graeme Tait wrote: > > Studded wrote: > > > > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > > > My suggestions for newbies are: > > > > > > > > - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. > > > > Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. > > > > > > I would extend this to say, "Never install a FreeBSD -RELEASE." I don't > > > remember the last time a -Release didn't create a bunch of errors due to > > > last minute cramming in of things. Watch the -Stable mailing list (for > > > 2.2.x) and wait for things to calm down a bit after the -Release and > > > then install the latest -Stable. > > > > > > Well, this business of FreeBSD versions certainly is confusing for this newbie. My > > understanding is that what gets issued with Greg Lehey's book is -RELEASE (mine > > being 2.2.6R). > > That's part of the confusion I suggested was avoidable by using > -questions if doing non-standard things. And it's another damn good > reason for having discussions with the experts held in the place where > experts hang out to help, freebsd-questions. There they present > opinions which are open to review by their peers. Any difference of > opinion is clarified quickly in that exposed forum, at any level. In > -newbies we have no frame of reference and every talker is a god. As I recall, this was one of my objections to the creation of the -newbies list. I'm glad that you're seeing things my way finally. :) > I was recommending, only from what I've been told as a newbie, that in > general -RELEASE is what newbies should be looking at unless there's a > strong reason to do otherwise. It was only a guess. Now we have a > learned view that newbies should never deal with a -RELEASE but should > consider that their last option, after -STABLE and -CURRENT. No one (certainly not me) said anything of the sort. As I commented in my last post I should have prefaced my comment with, "If you are upgrading from the net anyway, . . ." However I'm guessing that sue wrote this one before reading my last. If further clarification is needed I'll be happy to do what I can. > (Personally I can't understand what goes on in freebsd-stable let alone > freebsd-current but I'm just thick). -stable is a low-traffic list that consists primarily of discussion about what should and should not be included in the -stable branch, and discussion of how to deal with changes that are made. Questions germane to the topic are always welcome on freebsd-stable so new users shouldn't be intimidated by that list at all. > There are probably good reasons on > all sides, but who cares. We need square one, not squares 1 to 53. I care because I want to encourage new users to use the best version of FreeBSD that's available to them so they have the best experience possible. If a new user goes to releng22.freebsd.org and installs one of the -Stable snapshots they will have just as easy a time installing as if they were using a -Release version (probably easier in fact) and they will have a better FreeBSD experience because they will be avoiding any last minute problems that got crammed into a -Release. > OK, assembled learned helpers, sort it out for yourselves where you can > see each other, and put your final recommendation for what branch > newbies should be on into the handbook, if it's that important. We got > plenty to confuse ourselves with already without weighing up the big > fish in our pond. I'm not sure exactly what the above paragraph means, however I will try to make what I think is a related point. I stated an opinion about what version of FreeBSD I think new users will have the best experience with, and Greg expressed a slightly different opinion. For my money it's a good thing for new users to see people with differing opinions discussing a topic, especially when the discussion takes place in a forum that they should be comfortable in. In some ways my opinion about the need for a new users list has changed. I think that it has value and I'm glad to do what I can to help with it. However I think that attempting to isolate new users from differences of opinion is a mistake. As has been mentioned here previously this list contains all levels of "new users," and trying to cram them all into your (sue's) view of the "one true way" does all of them a disservice. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** Go PADRES! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Oct 20 23:24:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21393 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:24:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from battleship.genevaonline.com (battleship.genevaonline.com [156.46.205.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21388 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:24:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thiel@genevaonline.com) Received: from vishnu (pm3-ppp124.genevaonline.com [156.46.117.124]) by battleship.genevaonline.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA27791 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:24:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199810210624.BAA27791@battleship.genevaonline.com> X-Sender: thiel#mail.genevaonline.com@wingate X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:22:25 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Loren Thiel Subject: file systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I was wondering where I could find documentation on how the FreeBSD file system works. Also maybe the Linux file system, NTFS, HPFS, CDFS, FAT, FAT32, even a MAC file system. thanks, Loren Thiel thiel@genevaonline.com ICQ: 1117658 Give your computer something to do when it would normally just be sitting idle.... Join the worlds fastest computer: www.distributed.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Oct 21 06:33:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17070 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 06:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17046; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 06:32:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id VAA11747; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:19:57 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19981021211951.08236@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:19:51 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> <19981020174250.34448@welearn.com.au> <362CFFEA.328A17E9@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <362CFFEA.328A17E9@gorean.org>; from Studded on Tue, Oct 20, 1998 at 02:26:02PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 20, 1998 at 02:26:02PM -0700, Studded wrote: > Removing a discussion from its originating environment does a > disservice to both the "new" list (because they are asked to comment on > something that they don't have a context for) and the "old" list > (because the members of that list might not see the responses). > Therefore I'm sending this back to -newbies. > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:28:48PM -0700, Graeme Tait wrote: > > > Studded wrote: > > > > > > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > > > > > My suggestions for newbies are: > > > > > > > > > > - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version. > > > > > Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first. > > > > > > > > I would extend this to say, "Never install a FreeBSD -RELEASE." I don't > > > > remember the last time a -Release didn't create a bunch of errors due to > > > > last minute cramming in of things. Watch the -Stable mailing list (for > > > > 2.2.x) and wait for things to calm down a bit after the -Release and > > > > then install the latest -Stable. > > > > > > > > > Well, this business of FreeBSD versions certainly is confusing for this newbie. My > > > understanding is that what gets issued with Greg Lehey's book is -RELEASE (mine > > > being 2.2.6R). > > > > That's part of the confusion I suggested was avoidable by using > > -questions if doing non-standard things. And it's another damn good > > reason for having discussions with the experts held in the place where > > experts hang out to help, freebsd-questions. There they present > > opinions which are open to review by their peers. Any difference of > > opinion is clarified quickly in that exposed forum, at any level. In > > -newbies we have no frame of reference and every talker is a god. > > As I recall, this was one of my objections to the creation of the > -newbies list. I'm glad that you're seeing things my way finally. :) You are the only person who has (and repeatedly) caused it to become a problem. The only one. Makes ya kinda wonder why :) > > I was recommending, only from what I've been told as a newbie, that in > > general -RELEASE is what newbies should be looking at unless there's a > > strong reason to do otherwise. It was only a guess. Now we have a > > learned view that newbies should never deal with a -RELEASE but should > > consider that their last option, after -STABLE and -CURRENT. > > No one (certainly not me) said anything of the sort. As I commented in > my last post I should have prefaced my comment with, "If you are > upgrading from the net anyway, . . ." However I'm guessing that sue > wrote this one before reading my last. If further clarification is > needed I'll be happy to do what I can. > > > (Personally I can't understand what goes on in freebsd-stable let alone > > freebsd-current but I'm just thick). > > -stable is a low-traffic list that consists primarily of discussion > about what should and should not be included in the -stable branch, and > discussion of how to deal with changes that are made. Questions germane > to the topic are always welcome on freebsd-stable so new users shouldn't > be intimidated by that list at all. > > > There are probably good reasons on > > all sides, but who cares. We need square one, not squares 1 to 53. > > I care because I want to encourage new users to use the best version of > FreeBSD that's available to them so they have the best experience > possible. If a new user goes to releng22.freebsd.org and installs one of > the -Stable snapshots they will have just as easy a time installing as > if they were using a -Release version (probably easier in fact) and they > will have a better FreeBSD experience because they will be avoiding any > last minute problems that got crammed into a -Release. > > > OK, assembled learned helpers, sort it out for yourselves where you can > > see each other, and put your final recommendation for what branch > > newbies should be on into the handbook, if it's that important. We got > > plenty to confuse ourselves with already without weighing up the big > > fish in our pond. > > I'm not sure exactly what the above paragraph means, however I will try > to make what I think is a related point. I stated an opinion about what > version of FreeBSD I think new users will have the best experience with, > and Greg expressed a slightly different opinion. For my money it's a > good thing for new users to see people with differing opinions > discussing a topic, especially when the discussion takes place in a > forum that they should be comfortable in. > > In some ways my opinion about the need for a new users list has > changed. I think that it has value and I'm glad to do what I can to help > with it. However I think that attempting to isolate new users from > differences of opinion is a mistake. Experts' radical opinions bestowed upon -newbies, where they will not be challenged by equal peers, are one of the things that can isolate new users from differences of opinion. When they are wrong, misunderstood, or contentious, we have a problem. This is not the first time, is it, Doug. That's why they need to be seen here, in -questions. Final agreement should be recorded in the handbook if the advice already there is in error, but at minimum the true picture should be archived in -questions. I for one would like to see more opinions on the release issue, and not from newbies. Until the opinions can stand up to the full range of experience, they are just a confusing pompous noise. The pros and cons need to be in the -questions archives which is where people will search. Let's be constructive, not disruptive. > As has been mentioned here previously this list contains all levels > of "new users," and trying to cram them all into your (sue's) view of > the "one true way" does all of them a disservice. There is no "one true way" other than the list charter and the view of the majority of the community that cooperation is the way to succeed. It has nothing to do with any individuals. If you hate the list so much, I can't imagine why it's more important to you than helping newbies in -questions. This is where you're needed, in -questions. It might be a little harder, but it's much appreciated. The points you raised about -stable will be valuable to many who read -questions, no need to restrict them to a subset of users. Sorry about the thick skin. I'm here to learn and enjoy and cooperate with those who will, for just as long as it is pleasant to do so. But you know that. Good luck! > Doug > -- > *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** > > Go PADRES! > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Oct 21 08:50:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02894 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02872 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:50:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA03947; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:48:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:48:56 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199810211548.IAA03947@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, thiel@genevaonline.com Subject: Re: file systems In-Reply-To: <199810210624.BAA27791@battleship.genevaonline.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:22:25 -0500 >From: Loren Thiel >Hi, I was wondering where I could find documentation on how the FreeBSD >file system works. Well, first, you might check the archives of freebsd-questions. Also, I recommend McKusick, Bostic, Karels, and Quarterman, _The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System_ (Addison-Wesley, 1996); ISBN 0-201-54979-4. Also, and this may be rather a subtlety, UNIX generally supports several different kinds of filesystems. The above-referenced book discusses filesystems generally in chaprt 7; the Berkeley FFS ("Fast Filesystem") in chapter 8, and NFS ("Network Filesystem") in chapter 9. As a historical note, the original system that Ken Thompson wrote, and which, after time, acquired the name "UNIX" (credit/blame for which is vested with Brian Kernighan by Dennis Ritchie), was apparently little more than a file system and a scheduler: Besides the financial agitations that took place in 1969, there was technical work also. Thompson, R. H. Canaday, and Ritchie developed, on blackboards and scribbled notes, the basic design of a file system that was later to become the heart of UNIX. ... Space Travel, though it made a very attractive game, served mainly as an introduction to the clumsy technology of preparing programs for the PDP-7. Soon Thompson began implementing a paper file system (perhaps 'chalk file system' would be more accurate) that had been designed earlier. A file system without a way to exercise it is a sterile proposition, so he proceeded to flesh it out with the other requirements for a working operating system, in particular the notion of processes. Then came a small set of user-level utilities: the means to copy, print, delete, and edit files, and of course a simple command interpreter (shell). Up to this time all the programs were written using GECOS and files were transferred to the PDP-7 on paper tape; but once an assembler was completed the system was able to support itself. Although it was not until well into 1970 that Brian Kernighan suggested the name 'UNIX,' in a somewhat treacherous pun on 'MULTICS,' the operating system we know today was born. -- D. M. Ritchie, "The Evolution of the UNIX Time-Sharing System" (from AT&T Bell Laboratories Technical Journal, Vol. 63, No. 8, October, 1984) [I wouldn't normally do this, but it occurred to me that many "newbies" might find it of interest.] david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Oct 21 09:15:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05187 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:15:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com (as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com [206.27.167.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05178 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA01624; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:11:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199810210624.BAA27791@battleship.genevaonline.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:11:02 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: conrads@neosoft.com Organization: NeoSoft, Inc. From: Conrad Sabatier To: Loren Thiel Subject: RE: file systems Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Oct-98 Loren Thiel wrote: > Hi, I was wondering where I could find documentation on how the FreeBSD > file system works. > Also maybe the Linux file system, NTFS, HPFS, CDFS, FAT, FAT32, even a MAC > file system. You might want to try: zcat /usr/share/doc/smm/05.fastfs/paper.ascii.gz | more -- Conrad Sabatier You look like a million dollars. All green and wrinkled. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Oct 21 12:32:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28871 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt053nb4.san.rr.com (dt053nb4.san.rr.com [204.210.34.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28866 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:32:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt053nb4.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18737 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Message-ID: <362E36C1.148E0261@gorean.org> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:32:17 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE-1015 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> <19981020174250.34448@welearn.com.au> <362CFFEA.328A17E9@gorean.org> <19981021211951.08236@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Once again, I won't move a conversation that started in -newbies to -questions. I will however snip some of the already rehashed ground. Sue Blake wrote: > > > That's part of the confusion I suggested was avoidable by using > > > -questions if doing non-standard things. And it's another damn good > > > reason for having discussions with the experts held in the place where > > > experts hang out to help, freebsd-questions. There they present > > > opinions which are open to review by their peers. Any difference of > > > opinion is clarified quickly in that exposed forum, at any level. In > > > -newbies we have no frame of reference and every talker is a god. > > > > As I recall, this was one of my objections to the creation of the > > -newbies list. I'm glad that you're seeing things my way finally. :) > > You are the only person who has (and repeatedly) caused it to > become a problem. The only one. Makes ya kinda wonder why :) Actually several experienced users have posted to the newbies list. My posts are the only ones you object to. And no, I don't wonder why. > Experts' radical opinions bestowed upon -newbies, where they will not > be challenged by equal peers, are one of the things that can isolate > new users from differences of opinion. Once again, my opinion did not go unchallenged. Greg disagreed with me quite eloquently. Not to mention that my opinion about avoiding releases is not particularly radical. > When they are wrong, > misunderstood, or contentious, we have a problem. This is not the first > time, is it, Doug. That's why they need to be seen here, in -questions. > Final agreement should be recorded in the handbook Final agreement? On something relating to FreeBSD? It's not going to happen. At best you get a loose definition of the current best practice. The rock solid certainty that you seem to be searching for simply doesn't exist. In particular there is no one best answer about which version to install. It's highly dependent on what you're going to do with it. > if the advice > already there is in error, but at minimum the true picture should be > archived in -questions. > > I for one would like to see more opinions on the release issue, and not > from newbies. Until the opinions can stand up to the full range of > experience, they are just a confusing pompous noise. So you're willing to offer what you've heard about upgrading without actually knowing anything about it (by your own admission), and in spite of the fact that you *asked* for feedback you don't want any feedback from people who actually know something about the topic? Or is it that you don't want any feedback ON the -newbies list so that yours can be the only confusing pompous voice? > The pros and cons > need to be in the -questions archives which is where people will > search. By default the search page includes -questions and -newbies. > Let's be constructive, not disruptive. I agree with you in principle, however I think we disagree on the definitions of those two terms. > > As has been mentioned here previously this list contains all levels > > of "new users," and trying to cram them all into your (sue's) view of > > the "one true way" does all of them a disservice. > > There is no "one true way" other than the list charter and the view of > the majority of the community that cooperation is the way to succeed. > It has nothing to do with any individuals. I have no idea what you're trying to say here. > If you hate the list so much, Au contraire. I never said I hate the new users' list. In fact I've said repeatedly that my original opinion has changed and that I think the list has value. In point of fact, it's BECAUSE I think the list has value that I respond to posts here. > I can't imagine why it's more important to you than helping > newbies in -questions. This is where you're needed, in -questions. > It might be a little harder, but it's much appreciated. The points you > raised about -stable will be valuable to many who read -questions, > no need to restrict them to a subset of users. I do help users in -questions. I was helping users in -questions before there was a -newbies list, and I continue to do so. And my opinion about avoiding releases is well known to anyone who reads any of the lists. :) However if you're trying to say, "Doug, stop responding to posts in -newbies" my response is simply that I will answer any post I see fit to answer, period. > Sorry about the thick skin. Your dermatalogical problems are not my concern. :) Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** Go PADRES! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Oct 21 15:22:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19880 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:22:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rdc.cl (mailnet2.rdc.cl [200.27.2.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19871 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:22:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gollum@rdc.cl) Received: from wingate (gollum@dialusr-17.rdc.cl [200.27.4.27]) by rdc.cl (8.8.7/8.8.5-obm-seg) with SMTP id TAA14496 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:22:00 -0300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981021221915.007a8510@rdc.cl> X-Sender: gollum@rdc.cl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:19:15 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Anders Subject: pppd question. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This may be a stupid question (no, in fact I am very sure now that it is a stupid quesion :), but I have read all the docs, looked at all the man pages, and checked the Handbook and FAQ. My ISP uses dynamic IP addressing, and in the past (and from this windows machine), I have not had to enter his IP address in order to connect. I use PAP to connect. I can correctly call the ISP, connect, and then pppd ends successfully, (still connected, of course), but when I try to ping anybody, or use ftp, I get "No route to host." errors. I normally have needed to enter a DNS address to connect correctly, but this time I have not found any place to give the information to the pppd program, or in which config file I should put it. The DNS is '200.27.2.2', and the domain for the ISP is 'rdc.cl' It seems that the pppd program is working perfectly except for this little (major) detail, and at the end, right before quitting, it prints out my IP and my ISP's IP. I have tried playing with the /etc/ppp/options file countless times, and still the same error occurs. Another interesting thing: When I put 'defaultroute' into the options file, trying to ping somebody gives a "Permission denied." error (or something like that). I still cannot get my kernel PPP (from pppd) connection to work. Here is the '/etc/ppp/options' file: # /dev/cuaa0 115200 crtscts modem connect 'chat -f /etc/ppp/dial.chat' domain rdc.cl demand user anders ##defaultroute## idle 120 # and here's '/etc/ppp/dial.chat' # ABORT BUSY ABORT 'NO CARRIER' TIMEOUT 5 '' ATZ OK ATDT3111732 TIMEOUT 40 CONNECT # And my '/etc/ppp/pap-secrets' # anders * mypassword # If you know what is wrong, or you know where I specify my DNS address, because I (perhaps wrongly) feel that this is probably my problem, then I would really appreciate some help. Like I said above, I have read all the docs and man pages, and I have "The Complete FreeBSD", which got me this far but does not mention the need for a DNS anywhere, unless I just missed it. Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Oct 21 15:47:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22391 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rdc.cl (mailnet2.rdc.cl [200.27.2.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22383 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:47:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gollum@rdc.cl) Received: from wingate (gollum@dialusr-17.rdc.cl [200.27.4.27]) by rdc.cl (8.8.7/8.8.5-obm-seg) with SMTP id TAA14953 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:47:29 -0300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981021224444.007a4380@rdc.cl> X-Sender: gollum@rdc.cl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:44:44 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Anders Subject: Re: pppd question. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981021221915.007a8510@rdc.cl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:19 PM 10/21/98 -0400, you wrote: Now that I think about it this was the wrong group to post this in. Oh well. Sorry. If you know the answer, however.. :) feel free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Oct 21 17:06:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01354 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:06:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from emi.net (emi.net [208.10.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01349 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from SteveFriedrich@Hot-Shot.com) Received: from nt (tc1-11.emi.net [208.10.129.27]) by emi.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA32146; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:56:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199810212156.RAA32146@emi.net> From: "Steve Friedrich" To: "Anders" , "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 20:04:38 -0400 Reply-To: "Steve Friedrich" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows NT (4.0.1381;3) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: pppd question. Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:19:15 -0400, Anders wrote: >I normally have needed to enter a DNS >address to connect correctly, but this time I have not found any place to >give the information to the pppd program, or in which config file I should >put it. >The DNS is '200.27.2.2' Put nameserver 200.27.2.2 in /etc/resolv.conf Unix systems measure "uptime" in years, Winblows measures it in minutes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Oct 21 17:15:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02121 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rdc.cl (mailnet2.rdc.cl [200.27.2.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02113 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:15:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gollum@rdc.cl) Received: from wingate (gollum@dialusr-78.rdc.cl [200.27.4.88]) by rdc.cl (8.8.7/8.8.5-obm-seg) with SMTP id VAA16575 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:15:24 -0300 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981022001241.00798be0@rdc.cl> X-Sender: gollum@rdc.cl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:12:41 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Anders Subject: Re: pppd question. In-Reply-To: <199810212156.RAA32146@emi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Put > >nameserver 200.27.2.2 > >in /etc/resolv.conf >Unix systems measure "uptime" in years, Winblows measures it in minutes. > > Okay. Thanks a lot. I'll try that now... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Oct 21 18:34:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09323 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:34:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09308 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevink@mindless.com) Received: from rjiredff (ppp-207-214-211-253.sntc01.pacbell.net [207.214.211.253]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id SAA20592; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981021183107.007a0290@pop.netaddress.com> X-Sender: gekk0@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:31:07 -0700 To: Anders From: Kevin Subject: Re: pppd question. Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981021221915.007a8510@rdc.cl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org doy ou have a /etc/resolv.conf file? should look something like: domain yourisp.com nameserver 200.27.2.2 later At 10:19 PM 10/21/98 -0400, you wrote: > >This may be a stupid question (no, in fact I am very sure now that it is a >stupid quesion :), but I have read all the docs, looked at all the man >pages, and checked the Handbook and FAQ. > >My ISP uses dynamic IP addressing, and in the past (and from this windows >machine), I have not had to enter his IP address in order to connect. I >use PAP to connect. > >I can correctly call the ISP, connect, and then pppd ends successfully, >(still connected, of course), but when I try to ping anybody, or use ftp, I >get "No route to host." errors. I normally have needed to enter a DNS >address to connect correctly, but this time I have not found any place to >give the information to the pppd program, or in which config file I should >put it. >The DNS is '200.27.2.2', and the domain for the ISP is 'rdc.cl' > >It seems that the pppd program is working perfectly except for this little >(major) detail, and at the end, right before quitting, it prints out my IP >and my ISP's IP. I have tried playing with the /etc/ppp/options file >countless times, and still the same error occurs. Another interesting >thing: When I put 'defaultroute' into the options file, trying to ping >somebody gives a "Permission denied." error (or something like that). > >I still cannot get my kernel PPP (from pppd) connection to work. Here is >the '/etc/ppp/options' file: > ># >/dev/cuaa0 115200 >crtscts >modem >connect 'chat -f /etc/ppp/dial.chat' >domain rdc.cl >demand >user anders >##defaultroute## >idle 120 ># > > >and here's '/etc/ppp/dial.chat' ># >ABORT BUSY >ABORT 'NO CARRIER' >TIMEOUT 5 >'' ATZ >OK ATDT3111732 >TIMEOUT 40 >CONNECT ># > > >And my '/etc/ppp/pap-secrets' ># >anders * mypassword ># > >If you know what is wrong, or you know where I specify my DNS address, >because I (perhaps wrongly) feel that this is probably my problem, then I >would really appreciate some help. Like I said above, I have read all the >docs and man pages, and I have "The Complete FreeBSD", which got me this >far but does not mention the need for a DNS anywhere, unless I just missed it. > >Thanks. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Oct 22 14:35:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04542 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.interlinks.net (ns2.interlinks.net [207.107.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04531; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:35:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bill@interlinks.net) Received: from localhost (bill@localhost) by ns2.interlinks.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05015; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:27:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Sandiford To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD 3.0 Release and pw command - Potential Bug? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We are having a problem with FreeBSD 3.0 Release and it's associated pw command. We have scripts that used to work perfectly in the 2.2.x line. The script still works perfectly when we run it manually as root (logged in at the terminal) however when cron executes the script, the pw commands in the script don't work. We are executing the script using the crontab for root. We know that the script is executing because some of the other commands in the script are happening and working. The script is designed to add a new user to our system and the line with pw looks something like this : echo password | pw useradd username -h 0 -c "Full Name" -g group -u uid -m -d homedir obviously we substitute a correct numeric id for uid and proper groupname for group, etc. We are not sure if this is a problem with our system or a bug with the pw command that is in the 3.0 release...we have also tried invoking the script from and inetd process as well.....we have tried this script on 3 different systems and it doesn't work on any of them except when invoked manually. Any help please!!! ------------------------------------------ Bill Sandiford Jr. - Systems Administrator Interlinks - http://www.interlinks.net sysop@interlinks.net - bill@interlinks.net (905)404-0810 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Oct 23 11:49:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29580 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:49:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pnotes1.polar.on.ca (dns.polar.on.ca [199.212.22.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA29573 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:49:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ow@polar.on.ca) Received: by pnotes1.polar.on.ca(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.2 (600.1 3-26-1998)) id 852566A6.00678DF0 ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:51:05 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: POLARCOMPUTE From: "Oliver Wilcock" To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <852566A6.00669900.00@pnotes1.polar.on.ca> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:51:02 -0400 Subject: Why can' I ping myself? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org panic.polar.on.ca, a FreeBSD 2.2.6 machine, can't ping itself. When squid is installed it fails to reach the web sites that are associated with the aliased IP addresses. I've had the same problem with 2.2.4 and 2.2.5. I thought it was a bug, I guess it is a feature. IP address of machine is .101. Alias address are shown below. Alias entries are created in rc.conf like this: ifconfig_ep0_alias0="inet 199.212.22.99 netmask 255.255.255.192" ifconfig_ep0_alias1="inet 199.212.22.102 netmask 255.255.255.192" ifconfig_ep0_alias2="inet 199.212.22.106 netmask 255.255.255.192" ifconfig_ep0_alias3="inet 199.212.22.107 netmask 255.255.255.192" ifconfig_ep0_alias4="inet 199.212.22.108 netmask 255.255.255.192" How can I make aliases do what I expect? Under OS/2 I can ping aliases created with "ifconfig ... alias." Do I need another parameter? Do I need to create specific arp entries? How do I do that? ep0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 inet 199.212.22.101 netmask 0xffffffc0 broadcast 199.212.22.127 inet 199.212.22.99 netmask 0xffffffc0 broadcast 199.212.22.127 inet 199.212.22.102 netmask 0xffffffc0 broadcast 199.212.22.127 inet 199.212.22.106 netmask 0xffffffc0 broadcast 199.212.22.127 inet 199.212.22.107 netmask 0xffffffc0 broadcast 199.212.22.127 inet 199.212.22.108 netmask 0xffffffc0 broadcast 199.212.22.127 ether 00:a0:24:0e:ff:42 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Oct 23 19:30:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05653 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05646 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25413 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 12:30:13 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 12:30:13 +1000 (EST) From: Sue Blake Message-Id: <199810240230.MAA25413@phoenix.welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (Last updated 30 August 1998) (This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/) FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies. FreeBSD-Newbies provides a place for new FreeBSD users to meet and covers any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources:charters.html) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "subscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org appears on the mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Oct 24 09:15:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21518 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com (as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com [206.27.167.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21503 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA01173 for freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:11:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:11:12 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: conrads@neosoft.com Organization: NeoSoft, Inc. From: Conrad Sabatier To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: file systems Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Oct-98 Conrad Sabatier wrote: > > On 21-Oct-98 Loren Thiel wrote: >> Hi, I was wondering where I could find documentation on how the FreeBSD >> file system works. >> Also maybe the Linux file system, NTFS, HPFS, CDFS, FAT, FAT32, even a MAC >> file system. > > You might want to try: > > zcat /usr/share/doc/smm/05.fastfs/paper.ascii.gz | more Just thought I'd followup to this with a little script I wrote the other day shortly after sending the above message. Very simple. Just "zcat"s and pipes through "more" any files found on the command line. Much more convenient than typing the above command every time you want to view one of these .ascii.gz files: ----- CUT HERE ----- #!/bin/sh zcat $* | more ----- CUT HERE ----- Save this to a file (I call mine "zv", short for "zview"), set executable permissions on it (chmod +x zv), and put it somewhere in your PATH (I keep mine under $HOME/bin). Then you can do, for example, "cd /usr/share/doc/smm/05.fastfs" and "zv paper.ascii.gz", or even "zv *.gz". Hope you'll find this useful. -- Conrad Sabatier "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do." -- Joe Walsh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message