From owner-freebsd-small Sun Sep 13 03:00:57 1998
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From: "Andrew Hannam" <famzon@bigfoot.com>
To: <freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Booting from CD ?
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:58:39 +1000
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Has anyone created a version suitable for burning onto CD (and running from
CD as a bootable CD).
CD's are more reliable in the long term and faster than floppies but have no
write back capability.
The drive is a bit more expensive than a floppy but no-where near the cost
of a Flash-Disk.
Thanks,
Andrew Hannam.
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From owner-freebsd-small Tue Sep 15 11:00:47 1998
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From owner-freebsd-small Tue Sep 15 21:06:43 1998
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Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:58:30 +0800
From: Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>
Organization: RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd
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Subject: Linux or FreeBSD
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I have been following the discussion on embedded Linux versus
FreeBSD with some interest. Like Roger Irwin, I was not even
aware of picoBSD. Having read through the FreeBSD information
and the picoBSD site I was impressed by the level of clear and
concise documentation.
I have been using Redhat Linux for some time and will admit
that I sometimes get confused with the different variants of
Linux and the different ways things are done (e.g. Caldera).
In this respect the FreeBSD solution is extremely well
documented in the "FreeBSD Handbook".
I have been looking at experimenting with an embedded
solution and started using the Linux Router Project as a
starting point. The Embedded Linux Project looks very much
in its infancy and there is not much information present.
I basically want to run an embedded Java system.
Does anyone have any suggestions ?
regards
Chris
--
Chris Avis (c.avis@rama-tech.com)
_--_|\ RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd, 28 Walters Drive
/ \ Osborne Park, Western Australia 6017, Australia
\_.--._/ Tel: +61 8 9445 7999 Fax: +61 8 9445 7666
v http://www.rama-tech.com
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From owner-freebsd-small Tue Sep 15 21:30:50 1998
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From: "Chad R. Larson" <chad@freebie.dcfinc.com>
Message-Id: <199809160430.VAA18189@freebie.dcfinc.com>
Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
To: c.avis@rama.com.au (Chris Avis)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:30:00 -0700 (MST)
Cc: linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <35FF3766.B2551EC4@rama-tech.com> from Chris Avis at "Sep 16, 98 11:58:30 am"
Reply-to: chad@dcfinc.com
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> I have been using Redhat Linux for some time and will admit
> that I sometimes get confused with the different variants of
> Linux and the different ways things are done (e.g. Caldera).
> In this respect the FreeBSD solution is extremely well
> documented in the "FreeBSD Handbook".
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions ?
I have run both Linux and FreeBSD systems for a couple of years.
My opinion (the only one I'm qualified to offer) is that FreeBSD is
=very= much better in unity of the package, and generally from the view
of someone who wants to use the system in a production environment.
Linux, on the other hand, leads if you're looking for bleeding-edge
(like device drivers for the latest-n-greatest sound card) or are
concerned with POSIX compatibility.
-crl
--
Chad R. Larson (CRL15) 602-953-1392 Brother, can you paradigm?
chad@dcfinc.com chad@larsons.org chad@anasazi.com larson1@home.net
DCF, Inc. - 14623 North 49th Place, Scottsdale, Arizona 85254-2207
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From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 00:09:18 1998
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Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:13:06 +0200 (CEST)
From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>
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To: chad@dcfinc.com
cc: Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>, linux-embedded@waste.org,
freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <199809160430.VAA18189@freebie.dcfinc.com>
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On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Chad R. Larson wrote:
> > I have been using Redhat Linux for some time and will admit
> > that I sometimes get confused with the different variants of
> > Linux and the different ways things are done (e.g. Caldera).
> > In this respect the FreeBSD solution is extremely well
> > documented in the "FreeBSD Handbook".
> >
> > Does anyone have any suggestions ?
>
> I have run both Linux and FreeBSD systems for a couple of years.
>
> My opinion (the only one I'm qualified to offer) is that FreeBSD is
> =very= much better in unity of the package, and generally from the view
> of someone who wants to use the system in a production environment.
>
> Linux, on the other hand, leads if you're looking for bleeding-edge
> (like device drivers for the latest-n-greatest sound card) or are
> concerned with POSIX compatibility.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Hmm... that's not to say that FreeBSD is not concerned with being POSIX
compliant :-) 3.0-RELEASE is _very_ close to the latest published
standards.
As for the original question: I'd say that both projects are pretty young,
and I think you should choose what suits you best :-)). I don't know the
folks behind the Linux project, but I'll keep trying to develop PicoBSD,
so that it's easy to use in embedded products, and at the same time it's
very close to the normal FreeBSD environment (unlike the ELKS project).
Also, my personal opinion is that it's much easier to use FreeBSD in
commercial situations, because GPL requires you to publish your kernel
modifications, which is bad. You don't have this problem with FreeBSD (see
commercial examples of Whistle's InterJet and www.gta.com GnatBox).
And, as an incentive for you :-)) - there is almost ready the native
FreeBSD driver for M-Systems DiskOnChip flash...
Andrzej Bialecki
-------------------- ++-------++ -------------------------------------
<abial@nask.pl> ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see:
Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD"
Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/
-------------------- ~-+==---+-+ -------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 00:23:35 1998
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To: Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>
cc: linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:58:30 +0800."
<35FF3766.B2551EC4@rama-tech.com>
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Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:28:16 -0700
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> I have been looking at experimenting with an embedded
> solution and started using the Linux Router Project as a
> starting point. The Embedded Linux Project looks very much
> in its infancy and there is not much information present.
> I basically want to run an embedded Java system.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions ?
It depends on how "embedded" you want to be. If you're looking to
build a trivial appliance, I'd recommend Forth rather than Java.
By the time you put a JRE and all the associated frippery onto a
general-purpose system you don't really have an "embeddable" product
anymore.
But really, without much more in the way of context, it's hard to be
truly helpful. 8)
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 04:25:12 1998
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Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:23:55 +1000
From: Lincoln Stoll <lstoll@shoalhaven.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
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> As for the original question: I'd say that both projects are pretty young,
> and I think you should choose what suits you best :-)). I don't know the
> folks behind the Linux project, but I'll keep trying to develop PicoBSD,
> so that it's easy to use in embedded products, and at the same time it's
> very close to the normal FreeBSD environment (unlike the ELKS project).
The ELKS project is no longer really concerned with making Linux
embedded.
It's main goal is to create a small and efficient version of Linux to
run
on processors before the Intel i386. Depending on what you want to do
with
and embedded OS, you can put Linux in a small amount of space, with some
examples being HAL(the url escapes me), which is a single disk version
of
Linux designed for rescuing systems, although it is adaptable, to the
Linux
Router Project (http://www.linux-router.org) which is designed for using
Linux as a, well, router :)
Linc.
(lstoll@shoalhaven.net.au)
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From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 05:41:14 1998
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From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>
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To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: ATTENTION: PicoBSD doesn't build on -current
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Hi,
After last few days, the FreeBSD-current source tree is a very shaky
ground, and many, many things are still changing each hour... Many
exciting new features were added, but some of them needed massive changes
in various parts of the system, so it's natural that some other parts
stopped working. :-)
I want to warn you that:
* as it is now, picobsd doesn't build at all due to unexpected removal of
the SLICE code - some people say that DEVFS is enough, but I'll have to
check it myself...
* you should wait at least a few days (a week?) and allow the things to
settle. There is no sense in trying to keep up with so rapidly changing
situation. I know I myself am going to wait with any changes to
src/release/picobsd... Last known good sources are from ca. 12.09.1998.
* my first attempts to build an ELF crunch showed that it's somewhat
bigger uncompressed (by ca. 10kB), but smaller when gzipped (by ca. 40kB),
which is a good thing.
Andrzej Bialecki
-------------------- ++-------++ -------------------------------------
<abial@nask.pl> ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see:
Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD"
Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/
-------------------- ~-+==---+-+ -------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 08:21:16 1998
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To: c.avis@rama.com.au (Chris Avis), chad@dcfinc.com
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:20:29 +0000
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Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
Cc: linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199809160430.VAA18189@freebie.dcfinc.com>
References: <35FF3766.B2551EC4@rama-tech.com> from Chris Avis at "Sep 16, 98 11:58:30 am"
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This is easy... (yeah, sure)
We are systematically replacing (as they reach end-of-life) all our
Sun and HP servers with FreeBSD Intel boxes. We have 4 FreeBSD
servers and one FreeBSD router running now. (4 down, 5 to go) :-)
They run VERY well, and for now I don't consider any other solutions.
Most of us run Linux on our desktops, however, only because new
device drivers are usually available sooner, and some of us like the
slick X-windows configurations that come with RedHat and Caldera.
Just my opinion... your mileage may vary.
So, for us... on a network server FreeBSD wins hands down. On the
desktop, it's a toss-up.
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From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 10:41:37 1998
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From: Oliver Xymoron <oxymoron@waste.org>
To: Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>
cc: linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <35FF3766.B2551EC4@rama-tech.com>
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On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Chris Avis wrote:
> I have been looking at experimenting with an embedded
> solution and started using the Linux Router Project as a
> starting point. The Embedded Linux Project looks very much
> in its infancy and there is not much information present.
That's because there isn't currently a "Project" per se. Many of us are
working on our own projects on all sorts of different platforms and this
list exists to share information. Given the vast variety of potential
platforms for "embedded" Linux, ranging from toasters to headless plug and
play web servers, it's hard to guess what that project might entail.
The biggest hurdle on making an embeddable Linux on a processor family
that's already supported is probably the bootstrapping. Since this will
likely vary from design to design because of changing memory maps, chipset
initialization, etc., it's hard to see how a generic "project" can help.
Most of the other kernel stuff needed to make an embedded box workable,
like RAM or ROM disks, serial console support, etc. already exist.
--
"Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.."
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From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 14:03:48 1998
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From: dan bigelow <danno@mindsong.com>
To: "linux-embedded@waste.org" <linux-embedded@waste.org>,
"freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG" <freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG>,
"'Chris Avis'" <c.avis@rama.com.au>
Cc: "'linux-router@psychosis.com'" <linux-router@psychosis.com>
Subject: RE: Linux or FreeBSD (hairy edge of off topic)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:01:38 -1000
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Good to know about these other lists/groups... like humanity, it seems like
a waste to have so much redundancy, yet the subtle improvements and
brilliance seen in the diversity seem to justify the cost, in spite of the
lack of logic...
Hi,
Having followed this thread but not seen the main reason for *my* choice
listed, here goes...
first,
my unix history - Sun, HP, AT&T 3b1, NextStep, FreeBSD, Linux - both sysv
and bsd variants. Right now my servers are FreeBSD, and my imbed box is
Linux.
my philosophy - "What's the least I can get away with to get it up, then
add *my* desired functions (only) to that - Intentional, tight, controlled,
with no side effects, please!". I'm a reductionist... less is more (and
more likely to just work and be comprehensible...)
my opininon - Linux lets me build and change the smallest/cleanest system
and add to it most elegantly, keeping in sync with the 'current' releases.
Right now, FreeBSD adds the complication of the boot-crunch mode : the
do-it-all executable with links, but have to build-it-all into cool but
inter-woven bundles (VERY clever, with decent tools to maintain, but not
very unix-like in philosophy... and simply more complicated than I like
right now).
my bottom line - Linux is easier for imbedding and reductionists at heart,
and FreeBSD *or* Linux for general desktop/server applications. I happen to
pick FreeBSD for my servers (there's only one distribution/way to worry
about 'doing it' with normal FreeBSD...), but it's not religious, just
easier for me.
my soap box (skip unless you're really bored...) - Unlike MicroSnot, Sun,
HP, and ... who bundle-it-all and force us disk-cheap schleps (from an era
gone by) to strip the un-needed muck (how many screen saver/sound motifs or
termcap entries does a mortal really need?) out , with our fingers crossed,
hoping we haven't introduced some odd side effect that we'll see in some
End-Of-Month-Only-CRON-Script that breaks badly... Personally, I like to
divide and conquer : I boot to get a file system, console, and loading
tools. Then I bootstrap the resources I need... to load and run the
services I came for in the first place. Nothing more on the machine or in
memory. period. then I'm happy. If the loading/run the services part is
modularized right, life only gets better!
While there's nothing new about this protocol (the Sys V Init system does
this pretty well and can even go backwards and undo things done, by
changing run levels), the ability to distinguish between (and bundle) the
sections and control the behaviour on most systems is almost always
obscurred by the tangle of scripts and their interdependencies... Linux
seems to have isolated these parts better than the others I've seen. Maybe
it's because I've studied it better for my purposes, I dunno...
the LRP package (linux router project, http://www.linuxrouter.org) is
probably the best model I've seen to this end... I've even bastardized it
to my own, more minimal ends...
Look at mulinix too - clever minimal tools for common tasks (sed can do
*anything*... dunno where that is... sunsite for sure). I'm also keeping my
eye on Andrzej Bialecki's picoBSD progress
(http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/), cuz his attitudes seem in-line with
what I'm doing. (Andrzej, look at LRP's initrd and tgz image loading code!
bitchin stuff! although your custom 'init' shell has a place in LRP type
projects too)
It's all an amazing ton of fun! anyway, my 2 'sense' - opinions encouraged,
flames to /dev/halon
thanks to all involved,
--danno (spam_watch@mindsong.com)
----------
From: Chris Avis[SMTP:c.avis@rama.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 5:58 PM
To: linux-embedded@waste.org; freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Linux or FreeBSD
I have been following the discussion on embedded Linux versus
FreeBSD with some interest. Like Roger Irwin, I was not even
aware of picoBSD. Having read through the FreeBSD information
and the picoBSD site I was impressed by the level of clear and
concise documentation.
I have been using Redhat Linux for some time and will admit
that I sometimes get confused with the different variants of
Linux and the different ways things are done (e.g. Caldera).
In this respect the FreeBSD solution is extremely well
documented in the "FreeBSD Handbook".
I have been looking at experimenting with an embedded
solution and started using the Linux Router Project as a
starting point. The Embedded Linux Project looks very much
in its infancy and there is not much information present.
I basically want to run an embedded Java system.
Does anyone have any suggestions ?
regards
Chris
--
Chris Avis (c.avis@rama-tech.com)
_--_|\ RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd, 28 Walters Drive
/ \ Osborne Park, Western Australia 6017, Australia
\_.--._/ Tel: +61 8 9445 7999 Fax: +61 8 9445 7666
v http://www.rama-tech.com
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From owner-freebsd-small Thu Sep 17 02:54:56 1998
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Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:58:56 +0200 (CEST)
From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>
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To: =?euc-kr?B?vNu6tMjG?= <byungh@adams.kwangwoon.ac.kr>
cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: two Question about Pico BSD
In-Reply-To: <003201bde214$fe1934d0$69388680@coco7.kwangwoon.ac.kr>
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On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, [euc-kr] 송병훈 wrote:
> [Q 1]i can't edit ( ex : vi, vim...etc) INTO pico-bsd.
>
> why need edit? Because I wish some setting ( defaultrouter ,, dns ..)
You can add some small editor (NOT vi, vim, etc - they are too big), e.g.
ee (Easy Editor, src/usr.bin/ee), and it's available on the "dial" floppy.
In order to add it to some other type of picobsd setup, you have to first
remove something other - the floppy is too small...
> [Q 2]my program (router program..) development INTO FreeBSD 2.2.7
> Can I this appication load into Pico-BSD 0.31 (i have PicoBSD 0.31 ) ? ...
> Pls.. tell me the process for [bsd_app-to-picobsd_app] compile...
Read the manpage of crunchgen - basically, you have to place it in
directory called the same as the executable (e.g. ee/ for program 'ee'),
then your Makefile must be a Bmake (Berkeley make) compatible, it has
to define OBJS and it has to have a 'depend' target.
Then, if your application meets these requirements, you simply add it to
your crunch.conf file.
Andrzej Bialecki
-------------------- ++-------++ -------------------------------------
<abial@nask.pl> ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see:
Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD"
Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/
-------------------- ~-+==---+-+ -------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-small Thu Sep 17 04:18:14 1998
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To: Oliver Xymoron <oxymoron@waste.org>
Cc: Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>, linux-embedded@waste.org,
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Message Apparently From Oliver Xymoron <oxymoron@waste.org>
Dated Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:40:41 CDT.
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:55:49 -0700
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
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> The biggest hurdle on making an embeddable Linux on a processor family
> that's already supported is probably the bootstrapping. Since this will
> likely vary from design to design because of changing memory maps, chipset
> initialization, etc., it's hard to see how a generic "project" can help.
> Most of the other kernel stuff needed to make an embedded box workable,
> like RAM or ROM disks, serial console support, etc. already exist.
Speaking of ROM disks --- where can I find a bootable
supported ISA ROM disk card for Linux? I'd prefer one that
accepts PCMCIA memory/flash cards --- particularly the
Maxtor ones with the handy hardware write-protect on them.
--
Jim Dennis (800) 938-4078 consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services: http://www.starshine.org
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From owner-freebsd-small Thu Sep 17 10:17:20 1998
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Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:14:54 -0700
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From: Peter Monta <pmonta@halibut.imedia.com>
To: jimd@starshine.org
CC: oxymoron@waste.org, c.avis@rama.com.au, linux-embedded@waste.org,
freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <199809170755.AAA02507@canopus.starshine.org> (message from Jim
Dennis on Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:55:49 -0700)
Subject: Re: Bootable ISA ROM Disk Card: (was Linux or FreeBSD)
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> Speaking of ROM disks --- where can I find a bootable
> supported ISA ROM disk card for Linux? I'd prefer one that
> accepts PCMCIA memory/flash cards --- particularly the
> Maxtor ones with the handy hardware write-protect on them.
We're using an IDE flash disk from Sandisk (www.sandisk.com).
It comes in a removable PCMCIA-like format: mechanically it's
PCMCIA, but the interface is IDE. The small board/bracket
that the card plugs into has an IDE interface that simply goes
right to the motherboard IDE controller.
Cheers,
Peter Monta pmonta@imedia.com
Imedia Corp.
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From owner-freebsd-small Thu Sep 17 10:19:22 1998
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Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:18:54 -0700 (MST)
From: "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@pinyon.org>
Message-Id: <199809171718.KAA12662@vip.consys.com>
To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: using picoBSD to get big.
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So what if you took a couple of these motherboards that support 1GB
of memory, booted picoBSD on them, copied your web partition
from a reliable source (some sort of raid) to an MFS, copied your MySQL
databases to another MFS (possibly the same), and then used
the reverse proxy patched Apache
http://www.webtechniques.com/features/1998/05/engelschall/engelschall.shtml
to distribute the load between the two (or more. Of course the
reverse proxy could be a smaller system, running picoBSD.
No disk drives. Transparent redundancy.
This looks to work nice for serving static (database) content,
but I don't see an elegant way to commit dynamic database content
back to the RAID. Any ideas?
This has got possibilities for "Beowulf" style clusters too.
Russell
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From owner-freebsd-small Fri Sep 18 15:28:37 1998
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Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:20:08 +0200
To: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>, chad@dcfinc.com
Cc: Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>, linux-embedded@waste.org,
freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
References: <199809160430.VAA18189@freebie.dcfinc.com> <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9809160900290.17001-100000@korin.warman.org.pl>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9809160900290.17001-100000@korin.warman.org.pl>; from Andrzej Bialecki on Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:13:06AM +0200
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On Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:13:06AM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote:
> Also, my personal opinion is that it's much easier to use FreeBSD in
> commercial situations, because GPL requires you to publish your kernel
> modifications, which is bad. You don't have this problem with FreeBSD (see
> commercial examples of Whistle's InterJet and www.gta.com GnatBox).
And yet we've choosen Linux for the Cobalt Qube without even seriously
considering any othe variant.
In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one.
Ralf
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From owner-freebsd-small Fri Sep 18 17:47:19 1998
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To: ralf@uni-koblenz.de
cc: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>, chad@dcfinc.com,
Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>, linux-embedded@waste.org,
freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:20:08 +0200."
<19980917032008.E437@uni-koblenz.de>
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Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:50:54 -0700
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> On Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:13:06AM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote:
>
> > Also, my personal opinion is that it's much easier to use FreeBSD in
> > commercial situations, because GPL requires you to publish your kernel
> > modifications, which is bad. You don't have this problem with FreeBSD (see
> > commercial examples of Whistle's InterJet and www.gta.com GnatBox).
>
> And yet we've choosen Linux for the Cobalt Qube without even seriously
> considering any othe variant.
>
> In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one.
That depends. You're willing to send me a copy of your GPL-tainted
source? You won't mind when I repackage it as the Red Rock and start
selling it against you with only a small fraction of your development
overheads?
I realise that the Qube isn't actually anything remarkable other than
in terms of packaging, but for many products the GPL simply isn't
viable, and this is why most of them don't use Linux. Most notably,
anyone doing anything interesting inside the kernel (eg. GnatBox).
Still, pick what works for you, and stick with it. Either way, you
often end up so far ahead of where you'd be with a closed embedded
platform that the differences between GPL or BSD codebase is lost in
the noise. 8)
--
\\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
\\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
\\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 07:15:12 1998
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From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>
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To: ralf@uni-koblenz.de
cc: chad@dcfinc.com, Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>, linux-embedded@waste.org,
freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <19980917032008.E437@uni-koblenz.de>
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On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 ralf@uni-koblenz.de wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:13:06AM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote:
>
> > Also, my personal opinion is that it's much easier to use FreeBSD in
> > commercial situations, because GPL requires you to publish your kernel
> > modifications, which is bad. You don't have this problem with FreeBSD (see
> > commercial examples of Whistle's InterJet and www.gta.com GnatBox).
>
> And yet we've choosen Linux for the Cobalt Qube without even seriously
> considering any othe variant.
>
> In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one.
That's ok with me :-) However, if you changed anything in the kernel or
any of the GNU utilities that comes with Linux, I'd like to see your
source code... (not really, but you get the point).
Andrzej Bialecki
-------------------- ++-------++ -------------------------------------
<abial@nask.pl> ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see:
Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD"
Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/
-------------------- ~-+==---+-+ -------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 08:49:29 1998
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subscribe
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From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 16:15:11 1998
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Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:13:40 +0200
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>, chad@dcfinc.com,
Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>, linux-embedded@waste.org,
freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
References: <19980917032008.E437@uni-koblenz.de> <199809190050.RAA02275@dingo.cdrom.com>
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In-Reply-To: <199809190050.RAA02275@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 05:50:54PM -0700
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On Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 05:50:54PM -0700, Mike Smith wrote:
> > In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one.
>
> That depends. You're willing to send me a copy of your GPL-tainted
> source? You won't mind when I repackage it as the Red Rock and start
> selling it against you with only a small fraction of your development
> overheads?
I don't mind because those parts that are so simple that you can repackage
them easily aren't of real value. What isn't included in a GPL'ed source
tree is the understanding of all the inner working. You'd not be able
to really use all the source. Guess why Cobalt (and others) had to hire
people from the Linux comunity in order actually be able to produce a
good product within a reasonable timespan. For products like th
> I realise that the Qube isn't actually anything remarkable other than
> in terms of packaging, but for many products the GPL simply isn't
> viable, and this is why most of them don't use Linux. Most notably,
> anyone doing anything interesting inside the kernel (eg. GnatBox).
>
> Still, pick what works for you, and stick with it. Either way, you
> often end up so far ahead of where you'd be with a closed embedded
> platform that the differences between GPL or BSD codebase is lost in
> the noise. 8)
For the price / performance ratio and the achieved production cost per piece
MIPS was the CPU of choice and the state of the Linux/MIPS kernel required
that myself as the MIPS port's main author and a couple of other invested
many man-months of software work, so your analysis from above is way wrong.
We never feared cloning the GPL'ed software because parts the important parts
of the Qube are not the modifications of the kernel but the user interface etc.
Finally the knowledge in the products is in the heads of the engineering
staff. Any customization for special platforms without that special knowledge
is very, very hard.
Ralf
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From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 16:16:54 1998
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Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:15:54 +0200
To: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>
Cc: chad@dcfinc.com, Chris Avis <c.avis@rama.com.au>, linux-embedded@waste.org,
freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD
References: <19980917032008.E437@uni-koblenz.de> <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9809191616280.3693-100000@korin.warman.org.pl>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9809191616280.3693-100000@korin.warman.org.pl>; from Andrzej Bialecki on Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 04:18:14PM +0200
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On Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 04:18:14PM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote:
> > And yet we've choosen Linux for the Cobalt Qube without even seriously
> > considering any othe variant.
> >
> > In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one.
>
> That's ok with me :-) However, if you changed anything in the kernel or
> any of the GNU utilities that comes with Linux, I'd like to see your
> source code... (not really, but you get the point).
Yes, but: ftp.cobaltmicro.com.
And I think we should now finish the licensing discussion, linux-embedded
etc. are better used for technical problems. At least that's I'll do.
Ralf
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From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 18:06:30 1998
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From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@nask.pl>
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To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: ATTN: PicoBSD builds work again (hopefuly :)
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Hi,
I think I fixed most, if not all, places where the recently removed SLICE
code caused breakage. Those of you who regularly build their own versions
of picobsd please try it now, and report any errors. You'll need the
source tree from today, or newer.
Alas, I had to completely remove all nice features which DEVFS bought us
previously. As a result, we again have to know beforehand what device
nodes each setup needs, and making all of them takes a lot of space...
:-((( And, consequently each MFS has to have more inodes, which decreases
its available space...
Now I'm working on using an ELF crunch, which should take slightly less
space when compressed...
Andrzej Bialecki
-------------------- ++-------++ -------------------------------------
<abial@nask.pl> ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see:
Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD"
Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/
-------------------- ~-+==---+-+ -------------------------------------
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